11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 September 30th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 Megan MacKey ) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 20 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 MARLIN DOUGLAS SIMON JR., Resumed 6 7 Continued Cross-Examination 8 By Ms. Susan Vella 8 9 Cross-Examination By Mr. Murray Klippenstein 82 10 Cross-Examination By Mr. Peter Rosenthal 136 11 Continued Cross-Examination 12 by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 153 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 174 14 15 16 17 18 Certificate of Transcript 223 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 4 P-61 Map entitled, "Welcome To 5 Ipperwash" Document 6 Number 1002409. 8 7 8 P-62 Drawing showing East Parkway 9 Drive on left, Army Camp Road 10 Centre Of Map Ipperwash Provincial 11 Park On Extreme Right Of Map 12 as marked by witness Marlin 13 Simon, Jr. 153 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:04 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 Just before we start, I just want to thank Counsel once 8 again for arguments yesterday, for the arguments you all 9 made were forceful and capable and kept within a 10 reasonable time limit and I appreciate that. 11 And I want to reassure you that everything 12 you wrote as well as everything you said will be taken 13 into account in writing a decision. Thank you very much. 14 15 MARLIN DOUGLAS SIMON JR., RESUMED; 16 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, Mr. 18 Simon. 19 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And you're still under 21 oath. 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just as an order -- 24 first order of business, Mr. Commissioner, yesterday Mr. 25 Marlin referred to a map of the -- I'm sorry, Mr. Simon
81 referred to a map of the Ipperwash Provincial Park; it 2 was Inquiry Document Number 1002409 and I would like to 3 tender that as the next exhibit please. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-61, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-61: Map entitled, "Welcome To 7 Ipperwash" Document Number 8 1002409. 9 10 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: Mr. Simon, going back just for a 12 moment to September 4th, 1995; that is the Monday. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: You described an incident in which 15 Judas George smashed the window of a police cruiser. 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And I'm wondering, did you witness 18 any altercation at that time involving David George and 19 an OPP officer? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. And you also testified 22 yesterday concerning a mock police chases involving the 23 OPP WHO car which occurred on Tuesday, September 5th? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Was there a rifle of any sort in that
91 car and, in particularly, in the rear window area of that 2 car when you were -- to your knowledge? 3 A: Nope. 4 Q: Were there any words other than OPP 5 WHO written on this car, to the best of your knowledge? 6 A: There was a few other words but I 7 don't remember what they were. 8 Q: All right. At the end of the day 9 yesterday you testified that in response to the buildup 10 of police presence on Wednesday, September 6th, you 11 loaded up a bus with gas cans filled with gas from the 12 Park's gas pump; do you recall that? 13 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 14 Q: Where did you take those gas cans? 15 A: All different places. I took some up 16 to a friend, left some on the bus and where else? I put 17 some -- stashed some in the bush somewhere. 18 Q: All right. Did you take any to the 19 Park? 20 A: Yeah. I left -- I think I left some 21 on the bus -- cans on the bus. 22 Q: All right. Now approximately how 23 many gas cans did you -- did you fill and -- and put in 24 various locations? 25 A: I think it was probably about six (6)
101 gas can. 2 Q: All right. And do you recall how many 3 you left on the bus which you took into the Park? 4 A: Maybe one (1) or two (2). 5 Q: How large were these gas can? 6 A: Most -- they were -- most of them were 7 pretty big, like, I'd say, twenty (20) litres. 8 Q: About twenty (20) litres -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Capacity? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And you filled them right up? 13 A: Yeah, pretty much. 14 Q: Okay. Why did you do that? 15 A: I don't know, just to stash some gas 16 around in case we got closed off from, like, if the 17 police moved in and we got blocked off, we'd have some 18 gas around on hand. 19 Q: For what purposes did you anticipate 20 that that gas would be used for? 21 A: I don't know. Just for, like, 22 vehicles, like, patrolling around and stuff like that. 23 Q: Did you have any intention of using 24 that gas for aggressive purposes? 25 A: No.
111 Q: Did you tell anyone that you had done 2 this? 3 A: I don't believe so. 4 Q: All right. Did the gas cans remain on 5 the bus that evening, to your knowledge? 6 A: To my knowledge? I don't know if they 7 did or not. I don't think so. Somebody might have took 8 them off and -- 9 Q: All right. Now, focussing on 10 Wednesday, September 6th, 1995, the day that Dudley 11 George was shot, can you describe the general atmosphere 12 amongst the Park's occupants when you arrived that day? 13 A: That day? I don't know, everybody 14 kind of figured something was going to happen -- 15 something was -- like the police were going to do 16 something pretty soon. 17 Q: And, as a result, did you share that - 18 - that concern? 19 A: I don't know. I kind of -- everybody 20 had the same -- same kind of feeling, pretty much. 21 Q: All right. Can you tell me what kinds 22 of activities the occupants were involved in over the 23 course of that day? 24 A: I don't really recall. 25 Q: Were there people in the --
121 A: Just pretty much the same kind of 2 stuff that was going on the last few days. 3 Q: All right. Were there women and 4 children still in the Park? 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Could you say "yes" or "no" for the 7 record? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And were elderly people there 10 from time to time? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And can you recall whether any of the 13 community's elders were there? 14 A: I don't recall, but I do believe that 15 they would have been -- they would have been there. 16 Q: All right. And what kinds of 17 activities were the -- the women and children involved in 18 over the course of the day at the Park? 19 A: The women and children? Just the same 20 kind of stuff that they were doing the last few days. 21 Q: Can you just be a little more 22 specific. 23 A: Nothing -- nothing really changed. 24 They were just playing around and trying to be helpful 25 and...
131 Q: Okay. Were any traditional ceremonies 2 or activities carried out to your knowledge at the Park 3 on Wednesday? 4 A: I'm not sure if there was or not. I 5 don't think so. 6 Q: Okay. Were there any members -- 7 aboriginal members -- from outside of your community who 8 attended at the Park that day? 9 A: Nobody from outside the community, 10 yeah. 11 Q: All right. Do you recall which 12 communities? 13 A: Probably all of them by now because we 14 were all over the news and some people that know us, they 15 come up and see what was going on. 16 Q: So, you're indicating that there were 17 a number of different communities represented at the Park 18 that day? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Can you just give me a sense of what - 21 - what First Nations were, in fact, at the Park that day? 22 A: Walpole, Oneida, Chippewa, the Thames, 23 some guys from Munsey and Raven Town, Sarnia Reserve, 24 Q: All right. And you said they were 25 there to support?
141 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And in what way were they 3 demonstrating their support? 4 A: Just coming helping us out. Do 5 whatever we were trying to do. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Did the mood of the general group 10 change in any way over -- as the day progressed? 11 A: No, it was pretty much -- knew 12 something was going to happen. 13 Q: All right. You talked yesterday about 14 a -- a helicopter -- seeing a helicopter flying over the 15 Park. 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: Did you observe anyone throwing rocks 18 at this helicopter? 19 A: I don't remember if I did or not. 20 Q: Did you -- did you throw any rocks at 21 the helicopter? 22 A: I don't remember if I did or not. I 23 might have. 24 Q: Okay. Did you see any boating 25 activity that was unusual that day?
151 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Can you tell me what it is you saw? 3 A: Well, we just noticed this one (1) 4 boat that was kind of still in the same spot it's been 5 for the last few days since we started this thing. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Anchored off the point. 8 Q: And I know you said yest -- last day 9 that you -- you didn't -- couldn't identify any markers 10 on the boat. 11 A: No. 12 Q: And was that the same for Wednesday? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: But it was the same boat? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. Did you -- did you observe 17 any verbal exchanges as between the Ontario Provincial 18 Police and Dudley George during the course of the day on 19 Wednesday? 20 A: During the course of the day? No. 21 Q: All right. Did you speak with him at 22 all during that day? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And what were your -- can you -- how 25 many times did you speak with him? Do you recall?
161 A: I don't know, quite a few times. He 2 was -- everybody was all around. 3 Q: All right. And can you tell us what 4 your impressions of -- of Dudley George were for that 5 day? How did he appear to you? 6 A: I don't know. He was all right -- 7 normal. Same old guy. 8 Q: Okay. Did you observe any attempts on 9 Wednesday by the OPP to speak with any members from your 10 community at the Park? 11 A: I don't remember if I did or not. 12 Q: All right. At this point in time, 13 were -- were members of your group prepared to speak with 14 members of the Ontario Provincial Park -- Police? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Why not? 17 A: Just the same reason. 18 Q: To do with targeting? 19 A: Pardon? Yeah, that and -- I don't 20 know, we just... 21 Q: All right. To your knowledge, was 22 there any discussion in your group about whether or not 23 negotiations was a -- a viable option to deal with the 24 occupation? 25 A: I'm not too sure. Well, we kind of
171 felt that we weren't being, like, right -- represented 2 right with the news media and everything. They weren't - 3 - I don't know -- telling the right stories and stuff 4 like that, so we were kind of, like, waiting for all that 5 media hype to kind of die down before we start dealing 6 with this kind of stuff, I guess. 7 Q: All right. And had you selected who 8 would actually conduct any such negotiations or 9 discussions on your behalf? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Do you know an individual named Gerald 12 George? 13 A: Yeah. Yes, I do. 14 Q: Did you see any encounters as between 15 Gerald George and Stewart George or Worm which occurred 16 on that day, on Wednesday? 17 A: No, I didn't. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: I think I might have been at one (1) 20 of the other road -- road spots where we had on the road 21 -- our little observation things. 22 Q: All right. As the day became evening, 23 what was the general atmosphere of your group. Did it 24 change in any way from over the course of the day? 25 A: Everybody knew -- kind of figured that
181 the police were going to try something again that night. 2 Q: Why did -- 3 A: That was -- 4 Q: -- what was the basis of that 5 impression? 6 A: Well, the last couple of nights they'd 7 been trying to something, like trying to pick a fight -- 8 or not really -- I don't know -- pick a fight or 9 something, it seemed like, for the last couple of nights. 10 Q: Who had? 11 A: The OPP. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: And then so we figured that they were 14 going to come back again this night and try and do 15 something again. 16 Q: And have you already described it to 17 this Commission those incidents that -- that you felt 18 were attempts by the OPP to pick fights? 19 A: I don't know. I don't really think - 20 - I don't think I did or not. 21 Q: Okay. Perhaps you can -- you can 22 tell us. 23 A: Just, I don't know, everybody's 24 general feeling was that the OPP were just -- they 25 weren't around to help us anyways. They were -- if they
191 were -- we seen them coming and they were coming to do 2 something. 3 Q: All right. You told us for example, 4 of an encounter in relation to the picnic tables? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And an encounter when they came up to 7 the fence and you were on one side and they were on the 8 other? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. All right. And you can't 11 recollect whether there were any further attempts to 12 communicate with your group on that day in terms of 13 negotiation attempts? 14 A: I can't remember now. 15 Q: Okay. Now, Mr. Simon, did you see 16 anyone in the Park on Wednesday, September 6th, 1995 with 17 guns of any kind? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did you see any guns located in the 20 Park on that day? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Were you aware of any guns being 23 hidden or stored within the Park that day? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Were you aware of any plans to being
201 guns into the Park on that day? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you hear any gunshots or sounds 4 that may sound like gunshots on that day? 5 A: Just fireworks. 6 Q: The firecrackers? 7 A: Yeah, firecrackers and fireworks. 8 Q: Similar to what had occurred the day 9 before? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. Specifically did you see 14 Dudley George with a gun in the Park at any time that 15 day? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And did you bring any of your guns 18 into the Park that day? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Why not? 21 A: I didn't want to -- everybody was 22 like pretty much told to keep guns away from there. That 23 we didn't want to give off the wrong impression. 24 Q: All right. Now, we may hear evidence 25 to the effect that there were guns belonging to
211 aboriginal persons in the Park on that day. If such 2 evidence were to come to light in this Commission would 3 that alter your evidence as to what you saw and heard? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Do you know an individual named Cecil 6 Bernard George? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Did you see Cecil Bernard George on 9 September 6th. 10 A: Yes I did. 11 Q: When did you first see him? 12 A: Him and a truckload of people come up 13 from, like one of the police blocks, like East Parkway 14 Drive or whatever and comes up from the beach way or 15 something. 16 Q: All right. And approximately what 17 time of the day was that, that you saw him? 18 A: It was just evening time. 19 Q: Evening? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Was it already dark? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. Had you seen Cecil 24 Bernard George at the Park before that time and since it 25 had occupied?
221 A: No. 2 Q: All right. Did Mr. George reside at 3 the barracks? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Do you know where he lived at this 6 time? 7 A: Yes. He lived on Kettle Point. 8 Q: To your knowledge did Mr. Cecil 9 Bernard George hold a -- hold a position on the Band 10 Council of the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point? 11 A: Yeah. He was a Band Councillor at 12 the time. 13 Q: Okay. And can you just tell me, did 14 you actually see him when he first entered the Park? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: Okay. And it was from East Parkway 17 Drive then and down from the beach; is that what you 18 said? 19 A: Yeah it was from the beach way I 20 think it was. 21 Q: At that end of the Park? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. Now did you -- 24 A: He was -- 25 Q: I'm sorry.
231 A: -- he was on the outside of the fence 2 and he come pulling up to the fence. 3 Q: The truck did? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And then he got out? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And he entered the Park? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. And did you see Mr. 10 George bring anything into the Park? 11 A: He was carrying a radio -- a scanner 12 radio we found out later. 13 Q: A scanner radio? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: All right. And -- 16 A: He come walking up and then he says 17 something to the effect like, I can't turn my back on you 18 guys. You know, you guys are my brothers and I come down 19 here to help out. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: I'm like, holy why? And he was -- 22 well, he wouldn't say but we kind of figured something 23 was going on -- something was happening for sure. 24 Q: Why did you form that impression? 25 A: He said -- kind of said that he was --
241 been talking with the Chief and Councillors and he knew 2 something was going to happen. 3 Q: Okay. Did he give you any sense -- 4 any more particulars than that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. Did you see whether or not 7 Mr. Bernard -- Cecil Bernard George brought any guns to 8 the Park with him that night? 9 A: No, he never -- I don't -- he never. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I never seen any. 12 Q: And did -- did you learn any details 13 from Cecil Bernard George about the police activity 14 surrounding the Park? 15 A: We just kind of -- he had his scanner 16 radio and then we kind of started listening to the 17 scanner. 18 Q: Okay. Did you overhear any 19 communications or conversations on that scanner? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And did you learn anything as a result 22 of listening to that scanner? 23 A: They were, like, they were kind of 24 building up because of something that happened with 25 Gerald George and Stewart Bradley George.
251 Q: You had the sense from those 2 conversations that the police presence was increasing? 3 A: Yeah, and then -- I don't know, we 4 heard, like, was it -- they dispatched a T.R.U. team. 5 Q: Do you -- did you know at the time 6 what a T.R.U. team was? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Can you tell us what it is that you 9 know about a T.R.U. team? 10 11 A: Like -- Tactical Rescue Unit -- like a 12 SWAT team. 13 Q: And did that cause you any concern? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: In what respect? 16 A: Just felt something big was going to - 17 - about to happen. 18 Q: All right. And you -- when did you 19 overhear -- or when did you learn this information? 20 A: I don't know, as soon as we started 21 listening to the scanner, pretty much. 22 Q: Which was when? 23 A: As soon as Slippery got there -- or 24 Bernard George. 25 Q: All right. So, in the evening, but
261 not yet dark. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: All right. And, as a result of 4 learning this information, what, if anything, did you do 5 next? 6 A: I don't know. I kind of looked around 7 and didn't have very many people around so I jumped in 8 the car and went for a ride up to the barracks and go see 9 if I could round up any more people. 10 Q: All right. And what car did you 11 drive? 12 A: My green Buick LeSabre. 13 Q: All right. And what -- what route did 14 you take from the Park to the barracks? 15 A: The same one I was always taking. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Through the maintenance shed and down 18 there -- down beside Army -- Army Camp Road. 19 Q: All right. And did you stay -- you 20 stayed within the confines of the camp and Park 21 territory? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. Do you have any -- did you 24 make any observations with respect to the police presence 25 along Army Camp Road as you drove to -- to the barracks?
271 A: Did I make any -- the police were 2 still there, I think. 3 Q: All right. All right. And 4 approximately what time did you arrive at the barracks? 5 A: I don't know, a couple of minutes 6 later. 7 Q: All right. And, again -- 8 A: A minute later. 9 Q: -- can you just describe approximately 10 what time of evening we're -- we're talking about here, 11 or do you know? 12 A: What time? It was still daylight. 13 Q: Okay. When you arrived at the -- 14 sorry -- did anyone ride with you in -- in your car? 15 A: I think somebody might have. I'm not 16 sure who it was. 17 Q: All right. And what did you do once 18 you arrived at the barracks? 19 A: Stopped at the gatehouse and there was 20 just Pierre and Colly (phonetic) there and then I went 21 for a ride around the barracks to see if I could find 22 anybody. 23 And then I seen a dump truck up the road, 24 up at Clifford's place so I went up there because I knew 25 my Uncle Glen was driving it and then I told him that
281 stuff was going on down the Park and then I -- I got -- I 2 went back because I couldn't find anybody else in the 3 barracks so I went back. 4 Q: All right. Now, when you left the 5 Park to go to the barracks did you see any police 6 approaching the Park? 7 A: Whenever I left the barracks? 8 Q: Yeah? No, when you left the Park for 9 the barracks. 10 A: For the Park -- for the barracks? 11 No. 12 Q: All right. And said you -- you went 13 through the barracks. Were you on foot when you did 14 that? 15 A: No. 16 Q: You stayed in your car? 17 A: Yeah. Just a quick drive around. 18 Like I was really driving fast probably. 19 Q: Okay. And what did you tell your 20 uncle, Glen George, when you saw him? 21 A: Something that -- police are coming; 22 something to that effect. And then I jumped in my car 23 and took off again. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: And went back.
291 Q: Now did -- where did you go after 2 that conversation? 3 A: Right back to the Park? 4 Q: All right. And did you take the same 5 routes back to the Park? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Did you observe any police activity 8 or presence along Army Camp Road on your way back down to 9 the Park? 10 A: I think the cars were still there but 11 they were kind of like hiding out or something. 12 Q: Did you see police cruisers? 13 A: Yeah, the police cruisers were still 14 there. But I was going, like, really fast by my... 15 Q: All right. Did you -- all right. 16 Where did you enter the Park when you arrived? 17 A: Through the maintenance compound, 18 through the Park I think. 19 Q: Okay. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: All right. Behind you is Map P-60 -- 24 Exhibit P-61 which is the map of the -- the Park that we 25 looked at yesterday.
301 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And I'm just -- would you please show 3 us your route and you probably don't have a laser pen 4 there do you? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Hang on. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I just -- sorry, Mr. 11 Commissioner. I want to have the laser pen for Mr. 12 Simon. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: Okay, you now have your pointer. 18 Would you kindly show us the route that you took once you 19 entered the Park? 20 A: The route that I took? Right through 21 here to the maintenance building. 22 Q: All right. So, you're pointing at a 23 road that went by the maintenance, past the trailer 24 sanitary station; is that right? 25 A: Yeah.
311 Q: Okay. 2 A: And come across this bridge and I 3 think, yeah, there was somebody with me and then we seen 4 somebody else right about here. 5 Q: All right. Just past the bridge 6 towards the permit office? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And I asked him, holy, what's going 9 on? And he said, well the cops are coming in and 10 marching down the road and then kind of looked over and 11 we seen a bus and one (1) of those cars going through the 12 fence. 13 And whoever was with me, they jumped out 14 and ran -- started running over there and this guy was 15 running back to the maintenance building because Tina and 16 her kids were there and he was going to tell them that 17 the cops are coming, better to get out of here. 18 Q: So that's Tina George, is it? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And she had children with her? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And was she -- she was living at the 23 maintenance building at the time? 24 A: I think she was moving in there. 25 Q: Okay. All right. And you said that
321 someone was in the car with you? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Who was that? 4 A: I'm not sure who it was. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I don't remember. 7 Q: You know who it is you spoke to just 8 beyond the bridge? 9 A: Some Wayne guy. Wayne -- I think his 10 name -- I don't know what his last name was. He's kind 11 of a white guy. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Had white hair. He was from northern 14 Michigan, I guess. 15 Q: From where? 16 A: Northern Michigan. 17 Q: Okay. And what did you see from the 18 vantage point just past the bridge? What did you see, if 19 anything? 20 A: I just seen the bus going through the 21 -- like pushing that dumpster out of the way and then 22 Waldo's car was going through -- Waldo's car was pulling 23 up behind the bus and they were just going right through 24 the -- right through the fence. 25 Q: All right. Then what did you do --
331 just for clarification, Mr. Simon, Waldo, is that Warren 2 George? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Go ahead. 5 A: I proceeded -- we made like a little 6 roadway through, right through here, I went through there 7 and I went through these Parking lots. 8 Q: All right. And I see you're pointing 9 at the Parking lot that is opposite the Park store and 10 just -- just how far away from the -- the fence line is 11 that? 12 A: The fence line's right here. The -- 13 let's see there's Parking lots over here, I'd say it's 14 probably about a hundred (100) yards maybe at the most. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: And then I went through there and I 17 come around through this beach way then I kind of come 18 and pulled up -- then I pulled up over here and there's 19 like a big ruckus. I never seen what was going on over 20 here. 21 Q: All right. So, you have indicated 22 that you drove your car into the Parking lot area and 23 then you proceeded towards the fence? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And where in relation, for example,
341 to the turnstile? 2 A: I think I kind of got out of my car 3 over here by the fence over here. 4 Q: All right. You got out of your car? 5 A: Yeah. And then I kind of come up 6 over here and then by then they were loading Dudley in -- 7 in the OPP WHO car. 8 Q: Who was? 9 A: I'm not sure who it was -- Robert and 10 whoever was all helping him. My brother was -- my 11 brother was there -- there was everybody was around 12 there. 13 Q: Okay. And how far away from Dudley 14 George were you when they -- when you saw him being 15 transferred to the OPP WHO car? 16 A: I was probably just getting out of my 17 car and walking up here. It's not very far in between 18 here. 19 Q: How many yards approximately? 20 A: I don't know -- twenty (20) thirty 21 (30) maybe. 22 Q: All right. And did you make any 23 observations of the police? Were they still there? 24 A: They were taking off down the 25 roadway.
351 Q: Which road? 2 A: Down East Parkway Drive. 3 Q: All right. And where were the 4 members of your group? 5 A: They were still all over the Parking 6 lot. 7 Q: Which Parking lot? 8 A: The outside Parking lot. 9 Q: So the -- 10 A: Where the light was. 11 Q: -- the sandy Parking lot outside of 12 the fence? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: All right. Can you describe for us 15 what the lighting conditions were at that time? 16 A: It was getting pretty dark. There 17 was a big orange light over here somewhere. 18 Q: Sorry. By -- where was that by? 19 A: The store there somewhere. 20 Q: By the store? 21 A: Yeah. By the store and the entrance 22 to the Parking lot. 23 Q: Is your light out there? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: There you go. Any other lights?
361 A: No. I think that was it. Just 2 mostly the lights around here. 3 Q: Did you have your headlights on? 4 A: Yeah. I think I had my headlights 5 on. 6 Q: Do you know whether or not Warren 7 George had any lights on his car that were on? 8 A: I don't know if he did or not. Might 9 see his brake lights and everything going on but I don't 10 know if his headlights were on or not. 11 Q: Okay. And what about the bus? Did 12 it have -- 13 A: I think -- I think his headlights 14 must have been on on his car because I could see like the 15 back of the bus real perfect from back over here. And 16 when I was back over here I could see the back of the bus 17 real good. 18 Q: All right. Did you observe the -- 19 the bus -- the bus pass once it exited the -- the Park? 20 Did you see where it went? 21 A: No. It just kind of went out towards 22 the drive or the roadway I guess. 23 Q: All right. How about the car? Did 24 you see where that went? 25 A: It kind of went out and beside the
371 bus and then -- 2 Q: All right. 3 A: -- and I was like trying to steer my 4 way through all through here while that was going on. 5 Q: I'm sorry, you were doing what while 6 that was going on? 7 A: I was like trying to steer my way 8 through. I was like facing towards the lake going 9 through here and then all this -- all that was going on 10 while I was facing the other way I guess. 11 Q: All right. So, while the -- the bus 12 and car exited the Park, you were actually facing towards 13 the lake -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- in that Parking lot area on the 16 inside of the Park? 17 A: Hmm mmm. 18 Q: Is that right? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. So, how is it that you 21 saw the bus and car at all? 22 A: Well I was over here whenever the bus 23 and car were taking off out the lane way and then I went 24 through here. 25 Q: Okay. So, what you're saying --
381 A: Then while the bus -- the bus and car 2 were doing whatever they were doing out here, I was 3 cruising through here and coming up over here. 4 Q: Fair enough. 5 A: So, I didn't really see what was 6 going on over here, I just... 7 Q: Did you see either the bus or the car 8 returning to the Park? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. And do you recall which 11 entered the Park or returned to the Park first? 12 A: I don't know. I think Waldo's car 13 did. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: And somebody was like backing the bus 16 up. I think it might have been Judas. 17 Q: Okay. And when you say Judas was 18 backing the bus up was -- 19 A: Like he was -- 20 Q: -- he driving it? 21 A: -- he was walking behind the bus and 22 kind of going back over this way. 23 Q: And you're gesturing a signal? 24 A: Yeah, he was kind of -- I don't know, 25 waving his hands around, trying to get the bus to back
391 up. 2 Q: All right. And was the -- did you 3 say the bus was backing in? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. And what about the car? 6 Did it come in reverse or did it -- 7 A: Yeah, it -- 8 Q: -- come in head first? 9 A: -- come in reverse. 10 Q: Reverse? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And where did the car re-enter the 13 Park; what location? 14 A: It was at that -- what do you call it 15 -- that gateway where the dumpster was. 16 Q: Okay. And the bus? Where did it re- 17 enter the Park? 18 A: Same place. 19 Q: Okay. Did you observe whether or not 20 either the car or the bus was having any difficulties 21 re-entering the Park? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: What did you observe? 24 A: I don't know. Waldo's car seemed 25 like it was barely moving. He was -- you could hear him
401 gunning the motor -- and then his car was barely moving. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And then -- I don't know -- I -- he 4 backed it up anyways. I don't know if he pulled it right 5 into the Park or not or into the driveway or the Parking 6 lot that was on the other side of the fence, but 7 everybody kind of got out and was looking after Dudley. 8 Q: All right. Now, just to be clear for 9 the record, at what point in time did you see Dudley 10 George in relation to the bus in the Park moving? 11 A: It would be like -- geez, I don't 12 know. It was just all crazy looking. It was just -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- it was like really crazy looking. 15 There was people running all over the place not -- nobody 16 knew what was going on really. 17 Q: Right, where were you -- 18 A: I never heard no gun shots and 19 everybody was like, just creating a big panic. 20 Q: All right. You didn't hear any gun 21 shots? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Do you have any idea as to why you 24 would not have heard gun shots? 25 A: There was no mufflers on the car, for
411 one thing and just flying around I wouldn't have heard 2 anything. 3 Q: All right. You're saying that your 4 car was noisy? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. Were you inside or out of your 7 car when you first saw Dudley George? 8 A: I was like outside. Yeah, I think I 9 was -- yeah, I was outside of my car. 10 Q: All right. And where were you 11 located in the Park when you first saw him? 12 A: Where was I in the Park? I was up 13 toward the beach way. Yeah, I guess I'd be over here and 14 then somebody was like -- I guess I stayed around here, 15 just kind of in shock watching what was going on. 16 Q: How many feet away from -- or yards 17 away from Dudley George were you when you first saw him, 18 then? 19 A: Probably twenty (20) or thirty (30). 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Because it's -- I don't know. I just 22 noticed them throwing somebody into a car; seen the car 23 kind of pull up over here real fast. 24 Yeah, must have been over here somewhere 25 and then they were kind of throwing Dudley in and I was
421 kind of like standing around or something. I don't know. 2 Q: All right. Did you approach Dudley 3 George as he was being carried into the car? 4 A: No, there was like a big crowd of 5 people all around him and they just kind of hurry up and 6 put him in the car and away they went. 7 Q: Okay. And did you happen to observe 8 whether there were any rifles or guns on the ground in 9 the vicinity of where Dudley George was? 10 A: No, there was nothing. 11 Q: Was there any objects that may have 12 looked like a gun or rifle that you noticed? 13 A: Did I notice? I don't know. There 14 was like rocks and sticks and stuff all over the place. 15 Broken bats and broken shields, helmets. 16 Q: All right. Did you witness any 17 person-to-person engagement that's between the OPP 18 officers and members from your group during this -- this 19 incident? 20 A: Did I -- did I see what? 21 Q: Did you see any -- any hand-to-hand 22 combat or any direct fighting? Did you see any of that? 23 A: No. It was mostly all just -- the 24 cops were mostly, like, up the road by then. 25 Q: Okay.
431 A: I never really seen nothing. I didn't 2 see very much anyway. 3 Q: Fair enough. Now, what did you then 4 after Dudley George was put into the car and -- and it 5 exited? 6 A: I don't' know. I was kind of looking 7 for my brother -- what's going on and then find out that 8 they came and just opened fire on everything and 9 everybody and it's like, holy, who got hit? 10 And trying to find out who was hit and 11 who's not hit and couldn't find my brother and nothing 12 like that and then I knew that they took Dudley up to the 13 front so I jumped in my car and went for a ride up to the 14 front and see if maybe my brother was in there with him. 15 Q: Up to the front being...? 16 A: The barracks -- built-up area. 17 Q: Okay. So, approximately how many 18 minutes did you stay on the ground in the Park before 19 going into you car and returning to the barracks? 20 A: How many minutes? I don't know, it 21 just seemed like a few seconds, actually. 22 Q: It seemed like a few seconds. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: But you told us that you saw Dudley 25 George carried into the car and you had some
441 conversations -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- and then you went back into your 4 car and just having -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Give me a sense as to how long that 7 took. 8 A: How long it took? I don't know, 9 probably a few minutes -- a couple of minutes. 10 Q: All right. And did anyone come in the 11 car with you to return to the barracks? 12 A: I don't know. Someone -- I think 13 maybe Joe George might have. 14 Q: Okay. And which route did you take to 15 return to the barracks? 16 A: The same way. 17 Q: All right. And when you arrived at 18 the barracks or at the built-up area, did you see 19 anything? 20 A: At the built-up area? Yeah, there was 21 kind of like a crowd of people. Geez, I don't remember. 22 I think there was kind of like a crowd of people at the 23 gatehouse. 24 Q: And what did you observe? Was there 25 anything going on at the gatehouse?
451 A: Let's see. I don't know, I kind of -- 2 I seen some people on the side of the road on my way 3 there and I stopped and talked to them for a minute and 4 then I flew up to there and then there was like, Gina and 5 Uga was there. 6 Q: All right, now Gina -- 7 A: They were kind of waiting for an 8 ambulance or something. 9 Q: Who's Uga? 10 A: Nicholas Cottrelle. 11 Q: And who is Gina? 12 A: Gina's his mom. 13 Q: And her last name? 14 A: George. 15 Q: Okay. All right. And did you 16 actually talk to Nicholas? 17 A: I don't know. I think I might have. 18 Yeah, I walked right up to her and hugged her. 19 Q: And did you -- did you notice anything 20 unusual about Nicholas when you walked up to him. 21 A: I don't know. He wasn't, like, what's 22 -- what's going on? He was, like, real calm and he was - 23 - and they were trying to calm him down and just -- just 24 be still and be calm and -- 25 Q: Why was that?
461 A: I don't know. I learned later that he 2 was shot in the back. 3 Q: Okay. And how long did you remain in 4 the built-up area? 5 A: For a while. I kind of sat around 6 there and watched them go up to the corner and then I 7 jumped -- I was talking to somebody and they said that my 8 mom and grandma took off somewhere. 9 Q: And that's Marcia Simon? 10 A: Yeah, Marcia and Melva. 11 Q: And -- Melva George? 12 A: Yeah. So I went for a ride over to 13 where they were staying at that chapel, see if they were 14 around and didn't -- couldn't find them around nowheres. 15 Q: Could you find the -- your brother? 16 A: No. Then I went for a ride back down 17 to the Park to go look for my brother, because I went -- 18 Well, I went back to the gate and I asked them, are you 19 guys sure my mom took off? Why the hell would she do 20 that? 21 Q: Okay. Who were you speaking to at the 22 gatehouse? 23 A: I forget who was all there. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. And you said, I think, a 25 little bit earlier in your test -- testimony that they
471 came to the -- the corner. Who were you referring to at 2 -- I assume you mean the corner of Highway 21 and Army 3 Camp Road? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: What did you -- 6 A: I seen Judas -- or not Judas, but 7 Nicholas and his mom take off towards the corner up that 8 way. 9 Q: All right. And did you see -- was 10 there any police at the corner? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did you see any -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- any vehicles there? 15 A: Did I see any police vehicles there? 16 No. 17 Q: Well, any vehicles? 18 A: Any vehicles? Yeah, I think I seen a 19 vehicle up there. 20 Q: All right. What kind of vehicle? 21 A: I'm not sure. It was just dark -- 22 Q: Did you see any ambulances? 23 A: I don't know what I seen. I can't 24 remember. 25 Q: Fair enough. Well how -- describe
481 your state of mind at this time. And you've been talking 2 about, you know, you went down to the beach, you -- you 3 saw -- or the Park and you saw Dudley George and you 4 raced back up to the barracks and you saw some other 5 things. 6 What -- what's your state of mind? 7 A: My state of mind? I don't know. It 8 was like almost a panic and like holy smokes. 9 Q: Okay. Did you have a very clear 10 picture as to what had happened down at the Park by this 11 time? 12 A: Yeah. A pretty clear picture, but I 13 was kind of like totally in disbelief. I didn't believe 14 it really happened. 15 Q: You couldn't believe it? 16 A: Yeah, I was like holy... 17 Q: Okay. And you said that -- well how 18 long do you think you stayed in the built-up area before 19 returning to the Park? 20 A: I don't know. It could have been -- 21 probably about half an hour I'd say, maybe at the most. 22 Q: All right. Now, when -- did you take 23 the same route back to the Park? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right. And did -- did you take
491 anyone in the car with you back to the Park? 2 A: Probably. 3 Q: Do you recall who? 4 A: No I don't remember who. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: It might have been Joe. Joe probably 7 would have jumped back in with me. 8 Q: Joe George? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Is his name also Clayton -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- Joe George? All right. All 13 right, and when you arrived back at the Park, where did 14 you go? 15 A: Back over to the Parking lot where 16 everything was happening. 17 Q: Which Parking lot? 18 A: The Parking lot where everything was 19 happening on the outside. 20 Q: All right. The sandy Parking lot and 21 access road at Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Okay. And what did you do next? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
501 A: I don't know. Everybody was kind of 2 just standing around. I mean we were like figuring out 3 what -- what happened and who was all gone, who was all 4 missing. We have a head count and everybody was just 5 kind of walking around. We were checking out the bus and 6 we were checking out Waldo's car and like holy smokes, 7 Waldo -- like I don't even think Waldo knew he was shot 8 at -- 9 Q: Well tell me -- 10 A: -- until after, whenever we went back 11 down there. 12 Q: Okay. You said you looked at his 13 car? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: Can you tell me what it is you saw? 16 A: There was a whole bunch of dents all 17 over his hood and bullet holes in his doorway, like right 18 in his doorway, like right -- right where he would be 19 sitting and his window was shot out. 20 And we were like, holy, looking at that 21 and looking where Waldo was sitting. And then, we're 22 like, holy smokes, kind of start -- stepped back and 23 shine the light on Waldo, make sure he wasn't all shot 24 up, too, because it looked like he should have been full 25 of holes.
511 Q: And why do you say that? 2 A: His door, his window was shot out. 3 His door was shot right up. It was... 4 Q: Okay. Did you happen to count the 5 number of bullet holes at that time that -- that you saw? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: There was just quite a few of them. 9 Q: And just to be clear, what door was 10 the window shot at -- or at least smashed? 11 A: His car door pass -- driver door. 12 Q: The driver door? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. And -- and where did you see 15 the holes? Which door was that? 16 A: In the driver door. 17 Q: Okay. Did you notice -- and you said 18 that you saw dents on his hood? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Did you notice any holes anywhere 21 else? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. And are these holes that 24 -- that you'd seen in his car before this -- this night? 25 A: No.
521 Q: Okay. And you say you also looked at 2 the bus. Where was the bus at this time? 3 A: I'm not sure where the bus was. I 4 think it might have been Parked in a -- sandy Parking 5 lot. 6 Q: Still in the -- in the Parking lot? 7 A: Yeah. I can't remember. I think it 8 was. 9 Q: Did you look at the bus? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And can you tell us what, if 12 anything, you saw, that drew your attention? 13 A: A bunch of shattered windows and 14 bunch of bullet holes in the bus. 15 Q: Do you recall what side you -- of the 16 bus or where -- where on the bus you saw these holes? 17 A: Mostly on the -- I don't know -- 18 passenger side I guess. The side with the door and then 19 there was even some on the other side too I think. 20 Q: All right. And you've already said 21 that Nicholas wasn't there at that point. 22 Did you see Leland, Leland George? 23 A: I can't remember who all I seen. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Just everybody that was there.
531 Q: Okay. What -- what else did you do 2 while you were down at the Park, aside from looking at 3 Warren's car and -- and this bus? 4 A: We start looking around like where 5 the bus is and where everything was hap -- where 6 everything happened at and we seen like there's blood 7 spots on the road where Dudley was. 8 Q: Blood spots where? 9 A: On the road where Dudley got shot. 10 Q: Let's -- 11 A: He must have fell down the first time 12 and there was bullet casings like everywhere. It was all 13 over the place. We start -- 14 Q: Okay. I'm going -- I'm just going to 15 put the site plan on the easel so you could perhaps use 16 a... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Mr. Simon, we're showing to you a 21 site plan of Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive. And 22 you can see the lake -- where the lake is. And perhaps 23 using that plan you can show me what spot you're 24 referring to in terms of seeing blood spots. 25 Take a few moments to familiarize yourself
541 with this plan. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Is that helpful or perhaps this isn't 6 -- this isn't helpful? 7 A: Yeah it's kind of helpful. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Go ahead? 10 Q: Go ahead -- let's just make sure you 11 can see everything. Do you see where East Parkway Drive 12 is? Maybe -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- you could your pointer on that -- 15 that's that area right and then the Army Camp Road, 16 that's right. And where the sandy Parking lot and access 17 road was. 18 A: The Parking lot was here. 19 Q: And then the fence to the Park? 20 A: The fence is right in here. 21 Q: Right. Okay. And where was the 22 store in relation to -- 23 A: The store is like over here 24 somewhere. 25 Q: All right. And when you came in with
551 your car, where were you -- had been? 2 A: I was up all around here somewhere. 3 Q: And was actually that close to the 4 fence or... 5 A: No. 6 Q: But that direction. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. Go ahead then. 9 A: I don't know -- see -- we started 10 looking around all around over this way and over here we 11 seen like blood spots on the road, right around here 12 somewhere and there was some more over here. 13 Q: All right. So, just for the record 14 you were pointing at the -- right in the bend of the 15 road -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- towards the north -- north end of 18 -- north -- 19 A: Yeah. I'd say like it was right 20 around here. 21 Q: -- east end of that corner? Okay. 22 And then you were pointing in the sandy Parking lot area? 23 A: Yeah. There was more blood spots 24 over here. There was like a dumpster over here 25 somewhere.
561 Q: Okay. 2 A: And there was blood spots by that. 3 There was bullet casings all over the place around over 4 here. 5 Q: And you're pointing at the driveway 6 areas? 7 A: Yeah. And bullet casings over here. 8 Q: Across the road? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. Did you do anything with any 11 of the bullet casings that you found? 12 A: I don't know. Everybody kind of kept 13 -- kept them or something. 14 Q: Did you? 15 A: Yeah, I kept one. 16 Q: All right. And what did you do with 17 that casing. 18 A: I turned it in to the SIU guy. 19 Q: All right. After you -- and 20 approximately how -- how long did you take inspecting the 21 general area? 22 A: How long? I don't know. It was a few 23 hours. 24 Q: A few hours? 25 A: Yeah. We were all -- we were all
571 riled up. We were kind of, like, waiting for the police 2 to come back. We were thinking maybe they were going to 3 come back. 4 Q: Did the police come back? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And what did you do next? 7 A: I don't know. We were just kind of 8 sitting around. We end up -- I don't know, we were just 9 kind of sitting around. Everybody was like, holy, what 10 the hell? 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Kind of waiting for the police to come 13 back. 14 Q: Did you remain at the Park? 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: How long? 17 A: For the rest of the night until 18 everybody decided to take off in the morning. 19 Q: All right. Did you return to the 20 barracks at any point that evening? 21 A: Probably. 22 Q: Okay. All right. And at some point 23 in the evening, did you learn about the fate of Dudley 24 George? 25 A: Yeah.
581 Q: And where were you when you learned 2 that fate? 3 A: Where was I? I think I was standing 4 right -- 5 Q: I don't mean, exactly, but were you in 6 the Park? 7 A: Yeah, I was down here in the Parking 8 lot. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Because I remember I could -- I heard, 11 like, Dave George was on the phone and he must have 12 called up -- I don't know if it was the hospital or what, 13 but he got a hold of somebody and they said that Dudley 14 had died and I could hear them yelling, like, hey, 15 everybody, Dudley just died. Dudley's dead. 16 Q: And what was your reaction when you 17 heard that news? 18 A: I went holy fuck. I don't know, holy 19 shit, and... 20 Q: Describe your feelings. 21 A: I don't know -- anger and confusion. 22 I don't know. Yeah, I was pretty confused and angry and 23 just, like, right really pissed off anyway. 24 Q: All right. And did any activities 25 occur after you found -- found out that news, down at the
591 Park? 2 A: I don't know. I don't know what the 3 hell happened. 4 Q: Do you -- do you recall whether or not 5 a store was burned? 6 A: Yeah. I remember that getting burned. 7 Q: All right. And were -- did you 8 witness that? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Did you participate in that? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: How did the store burn down? 13 A: How did it burn down? 14 Q: What was used? 15 A: I don't know, just gas -- gas and 16 stuff. 17 Q: All right. And can you -- can you 18 tell us why it is you did that or you helped to do that? 19 A: I don't know, just -- it seemed like - 20 - like the only thing that would have any value that was 21 in the Park and if it was maybe just destroyed then the 22 fucking Province and the cops wouldn't feel like they 23 wanted it so bad any more. I don't know -- 24 Q: All right. And did -- did this event 25 happen before or after you found out about Dudley George?
601 A: It was after. 2 Q: And can you tell me whether this was 3 before or after midnight? 4 A: I'd say it was after midnight. 5 Q: Do you know approximately what time 6 you returned to the barracks? 7 A: No, I don't, probably -- maybe about 8 4:00. It was still dark out. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: Before everybody came in and sat 11 around. We knew that Dudley died and we just kind of -- 12 we all went up back to the barracks, anyways. 13 Q: All right. Did you see Bonnie 14 Bressette when you got back to the barracks? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And do you know why it is she was 17 there? 18 A: She said she come up there to, like -- 19 I don't know, she said -- what was it? This must have 20 been earlier. But Bonnie Bressette was there and she 21 come to -- I don't know -- she said to get all the women 22 and kids or something out of here. 23 Q: Were you actually in the barracks when 24 she arrived? 25 A: Yeah, I think so.
611 Q: All right. Now you said earlier 2 you'd stayed in the Park until about 4:00 in the morning? 3 A: Yeah. But I was going back and forth 4 all night. Everybody was going back and forth. 5 Q: Okay. So, had you returned to the 6 barracks prior -- at some time prior to 4:00 and after 7 midnight? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: How did it make you feel that Bonnie 10 Bressette was in to take out the women and children? 11 What did you take from that if anything? 12 A: It was like holy shit, the cops are 13 coming. Well, then we just kind of figured the cops were 14 coming to do something again. 15 Q: All right. And -- 16 A: And like holy shit, because we didn't 17 have any guns or anything, we couldn't defend ourselves. 18 It was -- just felt like there was another assault coming 19 and what the fuck we going to do now? 20 Q: After Mrs. Bressette left the 21 barracks, were there any women and children left behind 22 to your knowledge? 23 A: Were women and children left behind? 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: I don't know. I don't think anybody
621 wanted to go with her because they were scared of going 2 through the police lines and getting taken to jail or 3 interrogated and all that other crap. 4 Q: Okay. All right. How about you? 5 Did you feel that it was safe to leave the -- the built- 6 up area that night? 7 A: No. I don't think anybody did. 8 Q: Did you ultimately find your mother 9 and grandmother that night? 10 A: Nope. 11 Q: Were you concerned about that? 12 A: I forget. I think Bonnie said that 13 the police had picked them up. So, I thought they were 14 in jail or something, I don't know. 15 Q: And did you go to sleep at all that 16 night? 17 A: Nope. 18 Q: Did you return to the Park after 4:00 19 a.m.? 20 A: After 4:00 a.m.? 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: I don't know, probably not until the 23 rest of the people come in the next morning. 24 Q: And when you say the rest of the 25 people come, could -- could you tell us what you saw?
631 A: What I saw? I don't know. We were 2 just kind of sitting around at the gate -- at the gate 3 house and it was getting morning -- daylight -- daylight 4 was coming. And I don't know, we were kind of just 5 milling around the gatehouse and the kitchen and wandered 6 around to different people's houses. Then we all kind of 7 met up at the gatehouse again and we could hear like 8 cheering way the hell down the road. 9 Q: What was your reaction when -- when 10 you heard that? 11 A: I don't know. I didn't really know 12 who it was at first and kind of figured it was support. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. And did people arrive? 14 A: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 16 to stop for a moment? 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm wondering whether 18 if we might just take a -- a break -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it 20 would be a good idea. 21 MS. SUSAN VILLA: -- for the morning, 22 please? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it 24 would be a good idea. Stop for a minute. 25 MS. SUSAN VILLA: Thank you.
641 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 2 for fifteen (15) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 10:07 a.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 10:37 a.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: Mr. Simon, I want you to know that we 13 all know that it takes a great deal of strength for 14 Witnesses to come and take the stand and give their 15 evidence, so, we appreciate that you're here today and 16 that you're -- you're testifying. 17 I just wanted to go back to that evening 18 and review a few -- a few more details of it with you, if 19 I may. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: All right. You indicated that Cecil 22 Bernard George entered the Park and it wasn't yet dark 23 when he entered the Park on Wednesday, September 6th? 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: All right. Now, were there any
651 roadblocks set up at that time by the police? 2 A: Yeah. They were still -- had their 3 roadblocks all manned all around. 4 Q: All right. Were people being 5 permitted to enter and exit the Park by the police? 6 A: To enter and exit the Park? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: I don't think so. 9 Q: All right. Do you know how it is that 10 Cecil Bernard George was able to enter the Park, then? 11 A: No, he would have had to go through 12 the roadblock and -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- everything. 15 Q: You said that he brought a scanner in 16 with him and -- and you listened to some conversations. 17 You told us what you learned from that. Did anyone have 18 walkie-talkies in the Park that night? 19 A: I think Slippery -- Bernard -- yeah, 20 Bernard brought some with him. 21 Q: All right. Did you overhear any 22 communications on the walkie-talkies? 23 A: I don't know, a little bit -- a little 24 bit of chitter chatter. They distributed them all -- 25 where we had little campfire -- or fires in our
661 observation points. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: We kind of had one (1) at each one of 4 those and just -- there wasn't really anything going on 5 so... 6 Q: All right. As the evening progressed, 7 did you learn anything of significance as a result of the 8 walkie-talkie communication? 9 A: The walkie-talkies? No, nothing with 10 those. But the scanner, you kept on hearing the police 11 on there talking back and forth amongst each other. 12 Q: All right. And do you recall whether 13 you learned anything further from overhearing the police 14 on the scanners aside from what you told us earlier this 15 morning about any of the -- the individuals in the Park 16 or the situation at the Park? 17 A: Yeah, we heard all kinds of different 18 stuff on there. 19 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you tell us what 20 else you learned? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I don't know. We heard all kinds of 25 stuff. We heard -- there was complaints made by Gerald
671 George. They were in touch with the Kettle Point Band 2 officer -- Kettle Point Council -- Chief and Council, and 3 what else? There all kinds of stuff we heard -- we 4 heard. 5 Q: Did you learn anything concerning the 6 positioning of the police? 7 A: The police? I -- yeah, we heard that 8 they had, like, a mobile command centre set up just down 9 the road at -- there was, like, a Parking lot just down 10 the road from the -- just down East Parkway Drive from 11 the place where we were. 12 Q: Did you learn about there being any 13 arrest warrants as a result of listening to conversations 14 on -- on this scanner? 15 A: I think they were trying to get a 16 warrant for Stewart Bradley. 17 Q: Stewart Bradley George? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Do you know what that was for? 20 A: It had something to do with him and 21 Gerald. 22 Q: Okay. To you knowledge, were there 23 any police officers actually within the Park? 24 A: Any police officers within the Park? 25 Q: That's right; inside the Park
681 boundaries? 2 A: Not that I heard, no. 3 Q: You indicated that after -- after you 4 found out about the shooting that you looked for your 5 brother Kevin. 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: And at some point did you find your 8 brother? 9 A: Yeah. I did find him later on. 10 Q: Do you recall where you found him 11 approximately? 12 A: He was still down in the Park. 13 Q: All right. And did you learn 14 anything about that -- the evening's events as a result 15 of speaking with him? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: What did you learn? 18 A: Just, basically that the police 19 started beating Slippery and everybody went to go and 20 help Slippery and then the police start shooting. 21 Q: Okay. Now, you indicated in your 22 testimony that you were going back and forth as between 23 the Park and the barracks. 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: Now, you told us of one such trip
691 which occurred after Cecil Bernard George entered the 2 Park and before Dudley George was shot. 3 Were there other trips that you made in -- 4 in that time-span back and forth between the Park? 5 A: I don't remember. 6 Q: You don't remember? 7 A: It could be. 8 Q: Okay. What was the purpose of 9 driving back and forth between the Park and -- and 10 barracks that night? 11 A: Just -- probably just gathering 12 stuff, all the stuff that we would have needed. 13 Q: Like what? 14 A: I don't know. Whatever we would have 15 needed like, let's see, people -- people, I don't know, 16 food or stuff like that, anything. 17 Q: Okay. If you had one word to 18 describe your feelings that evening as you were driving 19 back and forth between the Park and the barracks, what 20 would that word be? 21 A: A word to describe my feelings? I 22 don't know. Anxious I guess as you -- kind of knew 23 something's going to happen and you don't really know 24 what. 25 Q: Did you leave the built-up area or
701 the barracks at all on September 7th; the next day? The 2 day following the shooting? 3 A: No. No. 4 Q: Why not? 5 A: I don't know. Everybody just didn't 6 real feel safe with going out -- outside of the thing, 7 trying to cross police lines or whatever. Everybody -- 8 Q: Was there still -- I'm sorry. 9 A: Everybody was kind of afraid of 10 arrest or something. 11 Q: Did you still observe -- did you 12 observe any police presence outside the -- the built-up 13 area? 14 A: No. They all pulled back quite a 15 ways -- quite a ways back. We wouldn't be able to see 16 them but we heard that they were still there. Still had 17 roadblocks in affect all around. 18 Q: And did -- did you see a group of pe 19 -- the group of people who walked towards the -- the 20 camp? 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: And do you know where they came from? 23 A: From Kettle Point. They were like, I 24 don't know, they gathered up at the corner there. 25 Q: Which corner?
711 A: At the corner of Lakeshore and 2 twenty-one (21). Lakeshore Road and Highway 21 from 3 Kettle Point. 4 Q: Okay. And did they come into the -- 5 the built-up areas? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Approximately what time of day was 8 that? 9 A: I don't know, probably 7:00 or 8:00, 10 somewhere around there maybe. 11 Q: Is that -- 12 A: Morning, early morning. 13 Q: In the morning? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And how -- what was your reaction 16 when this group of people from Kettle Point came into the 17 Army camp? 18 A: Just like a big relief. Just, kind 19 of like a big sigh of relief. At least we got some help 20 here now. We really have to worry about the police 21 assault. 22 Q: And did other people from outside of 23 Kettle Point arrive at the barracks that day? 24 A: Yeah. Yeah. 25 Q: And do you recall any particular
721 individuals who came? 2 A: Any particular? I don't know. I 3 think they all came. 4 Q: Okay. Did anybody from the -- the 5 Assembly of First Nations come that day? 6 A: Yeah, I think so. 7 Q: Do -- do you recall? 8 A: No, I don't recall. 9 Q: Okay. All right. When -- when's the 10 first time that you actually left the confines of Camp 11 Ipperwash after the events of September 6th? 12 A: The first time I left? Geez, I don't 13 even know. 14 Q: You said it wasn't -- was it on the 15 seventh? 16 A: No. 17 Q: What about the eighth? 18 A: It would have been -- it would have 19 been a couple of weeks, probably. 20 Q: A couple of weeks? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Why is that? 23 A: I don't know, just didn't really know 24 what was going on, if they had, like, arrest warrants for 25 everybody that was actually down there. We didn't really
731 know what was going on yet. 2 Q: What were your -- what were your 3 feelings towards the police at this point? 4 A: At this point, it was like, holy, 5 these guys are a bunch of assholes, I guess, because they 6 did that and then they -- we got pretty much portrayed as 7 being the bad guys in the newspaper. 8 Q: Did you think that was fair? 9 A: Was it fair? No, it was, like, what 10 the hell? 11 Q: Why didn't you think it was fair? 12 A: Just from the media -- media portrayal 13 of us being armed and firing on the police. And it was, 14 like, we didn't even -- we didn't have no guns around and 15 do anything. We never shot at them or nothing. 16 Q: Okay. Now, I should have asked you 17 this a little earlier, but did you, at this time period, 18 own any sawed-off shotgun? 19 A: Did I own one? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. And you testified that you were 23 not present at the alleged helicopter shooting in August 24 of 1993; do you recall that? 25 A: Yeah.
741 Q: Can you tell me where you were? 2 A: I was in Sarnia jail. 3 Q: And why was that? 4 A: Let's see -- I don't know, I was 5 charged a couple of years before for obstructing a police 6 officer and a few breaches of my undertaking for bail or 7 whatever. 8 Q: All right. And do you recall what, if 9 any, penalty you received? 10 A: I think it was just, like, a week in 11 jail. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: It wasn't... 14 Q: And were there any further convictions 15 or -- or consequences that related to that early 1990s 16 incident? 17 A: I think I got another breach or a 18 couple more breaches in London. I had to go to London 19 and deal with those ones as soon as I was released from 20 Sarnia jail. 21 Q: I understand that the -- the 22 conviction was with respect to a failure to attend? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Do you -- do you recall that? 25 A: Yeah.
751 Q: And then the breach of recognizance. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. And what was the penalty for 4 that? 5 A: I think it was, like, a hundred dollar 6 ($100) fine or two hundred dollar ($200) fine or 7 something. 8 Q: Okay. I understand that you were 9 charged along with several others in relation to the 10 alleged wrongful entry in the Ipperwash Provincial Park 11 relating to the occupation of September 4th to 6th, 1995; 12 is that right? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: What happened to that charge? 15 A: It was thrown out of court -- 16 dismissed. 17 Q: Okay. Do you know why? 18 A: Well, they were trying to say that we 19 didn't have, like, the colour of right (sic) or 20 something. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: And then we found that there was 23 documents that turned up that we did -- that there was, 24 in fact, a burial ground inside the Park so that give us 25 colour of right to come in. We had -- I guess it's kind
761 of a legal standing to be there. 2 Q: I understand that the Crown chose to 3 withdraw the charges; is that your recollection? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Mr. Simon, has this event -- the 6 events of the evening of September 6th, 1995 had any 7 impact on you? 8 A: Any impact? I don't know, probably, 9 yeah. 10 Q: How -- how has it affected you? 11 A: How has it affected me? I'm not 12 really sure. It just -- not too much respect for 13 authority any more. It's pretty much a lot of it. 14 Q: Do you ever think about these -- 15 these events? 16 A: Yeah. All the time. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Do you have an opinion as to why and 21 how things went so wrong that night? 22 A: Do I have an opinion? I'd say it was 23 just like a big staged thing that was planned out and 24 drawn out and executed against us. 25 Q: Okay. Can you expand on that a
771 little bit? What do you mean "executed, planned out and 2 drawn out"? 3 A: Planned out and -- well it was like a 4 big operation, pretty much. I felt that the Ontario 5 Government was involved in like a lot -- a lot of what 6 happened, why it happened, just for forcing the OPP into 7 doing this and pretty much... 8 They use -- well, there was members of 9 Kettle Point Band Council that went along with it and it 10 was all kind of -- I don't know, it just seemed like the 11 whole world was all against us, all at once. 12 Q: Okay. Do you have any opinion or 13 suggestions as to what would help ensure that this type 14 of event never happened again? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I don't know. Not really. I 19 wouldn't say it would be like one (1) easy step to do the 20 -- it'd be pretty -- pretty big drawn out thing. 21 Q: Okay. Mr. Simon, I want to thank you 22 very much. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And I've concluded my 24 examination, Mr. Commissioner and -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
781 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- Mr. Simon, if you'd 2 just wait on the stand and we'll perhaps determine if any 3 have -- if any -- any other parties wish to cross- 4 examine. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Before we -- 6 do any parties wish to cross-examine? 7 One (1), two (2), three (3) four (4), 8 there are a number. 9 Mr. Simon, it isn't easy for any Witness 10 to face twenty-five (25) lawyers, even an experienced 11 one. But that's our system so these lawyers now have a 12 chance to ask you some questions. 13 If the questions that they ask you are 14 unfair, your Counsel, Commission Counsel or I will 15 interrupt but other than that, you understand this is the 16 process. You've got to -- 17 THE WITNESS: All right. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- answer 19 these questions. But if you're upset at any time, just 20 say so and we'll stop. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I know 23 you haven't done this before. 24 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or haven't
791 faced this many lawyers; very few people have. So, we'll 2 start with Mr. Klipp -- it's not your client, it's Mr. 3 Ross' client, right? 4 So, Mr. Klippenstein, would you -- 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm wondering, Mr. 6 Commissioner, should we get a sense, perhaps, of the 7 length -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh yes -- 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- of the 10 cross-examination? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I meant 12 to do that. I like to do that just so that we have some 13 idea because of the number. 14 Mr. Klippenstein, how long do you think 15 you might be? 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: An hour to an 17 hour and a half. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 19 Rosenthal...? 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I think I would 21 take an hour, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: An hour? 23 This helps you as well, to get some idea of what to 24 expect. Mr. Henderson ...? 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: For the moment we
801 don't anticipate any questions, Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 3 Horton....? 4 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: I don't anticipate 5 any questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. Mr. 7 Eyolfson...? 8 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: I also don't 9 anticipate any questions. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? I'll go 11 through the list. The Province of Ontario...? 12 MS. KIM TWOHIG: I may have one question, 13 thanks. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Harris -- 15 Mr. Downard, I mean? Excuse me. Mr. Harris' lawyer, Mr. 16 Downard...? 17 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Approximately two (2) 18 hours, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A few hours? 20 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Two (2) hours. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 22 two (2) hours. Any other former officials? Some aren't 23 here. Just before we get to the OPP; Mr. Runciman...? 24 Mr. Hodgson...? 25 Mr. Beaubien...? Any? No?
811 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Perhaps ten (10) 2 minutes, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's for 4 Mr. Beaubien; perhaps ten (10) minutes. 5 You're OPP...? 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Approximately 7 forty-five (45) minutes, Mr. Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps 9 forty-five (45) minutes. The OPPA...? 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 11 think I will be the better part of the day. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The better 13 part of a day. 14 The Coroner's office; Mr. O'Marra...? 15 MR. AL O'MARRA: I have one (1) or two (2) 16 questions, sir; less than two (2) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 18 Municipality? 19 MS. JANET CALMONT: We don't anticipate 20 any questions, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Just 22 start and work our way through it. Sometimes it's 23 shorter depending on whether or not some people have 24 already asked the questions. Sometimes it's longer if a 25 -- if some questions raise other questions. So, you can
821 never predict with accuracy but we'll do the best we can. 2 Mr. Klippenstein...? 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 5 Q: Good morning, Mr. Simon. 6 A: Good morning. Good afternoon. 7 Q: My name is Murray Klippenstein. I'm 8 one of the legal counsel for the Estate of Dudley George 9 and for Maynard Sam George and the Family of Dudley 10 George. 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: We've heard a lot of your story about 13 going into the Park and what happened as a result of that 14 and is it fair to say that you went into the Park because 15 you believed that that was the land of your people? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And is it fair to say that everything 18 that happened was a result of the fact that you believed 19 that the lands that were the Park lands were really the 20 lands of your people? 21 In other words you went into the Park 22 because you believed those were the lands of your people 23 and you wouldn't have been in the Park otherwise, right? 24 A: Yeah. Yes. 25 Q: You said that you were angry and
831 confused after the shooting of the evening of September 2 6th and the shooting of Dudley George. 3 Did you ever imagine when you went into 4 Park that a number of you would be shot by the police and 5 one of you would be killed? 6 A: Did we ever imagine that? No. 7 Figured maybe be dragged off to jail would be like the 8 worst -- the worst thing. 9 Q: And did it ever enter your head that 10 in Ontario, in Canada in the 1990s First Nations People 11 could be shot and even killed for occupying land they 12 believed was theirs? 13 A: I didn't believe that that would 14 happen. 15 Q: Is it fair to say that you believed 16 that the Park lands were the lands of your people because 17 they had always been the lands of your people from 18 hundreds of years before? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: I -- 22 Q: Yeah? 23 A: -- and I also believed that there was 24 some shady land deals back in -- back in, like, I don't 25 know, way back in the early days and they got turned over
841 to other -- other owners. 2 Q: I'm sorry, could you repeat that, 3 please? I just didn't hear it. 4 A: There was, like, a shady land deal -- 5 land transactions, like, way back in -- earlier on in 6 history and... 7 Q: I'm going to ask you some more about 8 that, but let me first ask you, had you heard about a 9 treaty between the British Crown and your people a long, 10 long time ago? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And how would you have heard about 13 that treaty? 14 A: How would I have heard about the 15 treaty? 16 Q: Do you remember how you heard about it 17 or -- 18 A: How -- I don't know, I just hear, 19 like, different -- different stories about it all the 20 time. It's like family history, I guess. And -- 21 Q: And -- 22 A: -- you hear it from the families, you 23 hear it from different -- different places. We heard 24 some parts at school. 25 Q: And is it fair to say that you'd heard
851 that the Stoney Point Reserve was your peoples' lands as 2 a result of that treaty? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And did you know before you went into 5 the Park in September of 1995, whether or not the 6 Parklands had previously been part of the Stoney Point 7 Reserve? 8 A: Did I know that? Yes. 9 Q: And did you believe that you had a 10 right to be on the Stoney Point lands as a result of the 11 treaty? 12 A: Yeah. I kind of believed that I had a 13 right to be on the land as being a member of the public. 14 Q: And did you have some rights as a 15 First Nation person, in your understanding, as a result 16 of the treaty that a member of the public -- a non-native 17 member of the public -- didn't have? 18 A: Did I -- what was the question again? 19 Q: Let me repeat it again. Was it your 20 understanding that, as a result of the treaty and as a 21 First Nations person, you had some rights in relation to 22 the Park lands different or more than any ordinary member 23 of the public? 24 A: I don't know. I'd think we'd have, 25 like, more say over certain areas, I guess.
861 Q: Was it -- was it your understanding 2 when you went into the Park as a group of occupiers on 3 September 6 -- or September 4th, that you were reclaiming 4 your peoples' lands? 5 A: Reclaiming? 6 Q: Let me put it this way, did you 7 believe that the Park lands had formerly -- a long time 8 ago -- been occupied by your people? 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry, I'm -- excuse 10 me, Mr. Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 12 Vella? 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I appreciate that the 14 points that Mr. Klippenstein is making are -- are 15 important points, but I do believe that this question has 16 been answered about three (3) times already by Mr. Marlin 17 Simon and out of respect for the Witness, I think that 18 that's probably enough. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 20 Downard, do you want to come to the microphone? 21 Otherwise we won't be able to hear you. 22 MR. PETER DOWNARD: If -- if I might add 23 something briefly. I appreciate that this is a Public 24 Inquiry and not a trial process, but my -- my Friend, 25 with respect, is simply putting his arguments to the
871 Witness and asking him whether he agrees with them. 2 And it -- it's very helpful to have this 3 Witness' authentic evidence as to his own perceptions, 4 recollections, beliefs, but to simply subscribe to my 5 Friend's arguments, in my submission, it is not an 6 appropriate subject of evidence. It is not really very 7 helpful. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It certainly 9 isn't helpful. I'm just telling you that, Mr. 10 Klippenstein. If you want to do it, I'm just advising 11 you that we have that story and it isn't helpful and 12 you'll have an opportunity to make your submissions and 13 there's enough evidence already on the record for that 14 point that you just made. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Mr. 16 Commissioner, we heard a great deal of argument from 17 various Counsel yesterday that the process of the Inquiry 18 is quite similar in some ways to other legal processes -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- and just as 21 Counsel for -- many of the parties yesterday were 22 suggesting that although we're not bound by those rules, 23 in many cases we are generally following those 24 principles. My understanding is that this is cross- 25 examination and that that is quite different from, for
881 example, the examination by Commission Counsel and that I 2 am entitled to ask what you sometimes call leading 3 questions. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: And that I'm 6 entitled to -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 8 think anybody would quarrel with that. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I think one (1) 10 of the things I understand about that situation is that 11 I'm entitled to put suggestions to the Witness and see 12 whether or not he or she agrees with it -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- and to -- 15 and that I have considerable scope just as in most other 16 legal processes in cross-examination, to do that. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, carry 18 on. We just want your questions to be helpful and to be 19 fair and I'm sure you do, as well. 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 25 Q: Mr. Simon, I was asking you some
891 questions about your understanding of the treaty. 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: Did you know much about the treaty or 4 just generally what you'd heard from people in your 5 community? 6 A: Yeah, pretty much, well, our version 7 of the treaty and what -- what's written down in history 8 kind of conflict. 9 Q: And can you tell me a bit about your 10 version of the treaty? 11 A: What kind of version? 12 Q: Just generally, do you have any 13 thoughts about -- about what the treaty means to you? 14 A: What it means to me? I don't know, 15 just our grandfathers went off to war and helped out the 16 British so the British give us, like, southwestern 17 Ontario. 18 Q: And, so you said your grandfathers 19 helped out the British in the war -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- and so as a result of that the 22 British gave or recognized southwestern Ontario as your 23 peoples'? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And is it your understanding that, as
901 part of the treaty -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now Mr. Ross 3 is objecting because you're just -- carry on, Mr. Ross. 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I do 5 not think it's appropriate to ask this Witness to rerun 6 the expert evidence that we got from the two (2) experts 7 called by the Commissioner. I think that aspect is 8 fairly clear -- the historical aspect. Now, it comes 9 onto two (2) things. 10 Number 1: What happened around September 11 the 6th and the personal involvement of this Witness and 12 coupled with that is the lead-up to what happened. I -- 13 I think it's fairly clear the -- the historic perspective 14 is very, very clear and all that -- that is going to do 15 is confuse the record and put me in a position that I'm 16 going to have to really do a lot, a lot of straightening 17 out and mopping up, which I don't really want to do. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 19 understand, Mr. Ross. 20 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you -- 22 you know, as I said, Mr. Klippenstein, I -- I think it's 23 not helpful to have you treat this witness as if he were 24 an expert on that area. You -- you could ask him if he 25 knew about the history and -- and I assume he -- he did.
911 And we do as well as a result of the expert evidence. 2 And if that -- if knowing about it had any bearing on 3 his actions, those would be legitimate questions. 4 But to go over the whole history, your 5 version of it or his version of it, would be very 6 unhelpful at this time because there will be lots of 7 other versions. And -- and this will be a different kind 8 of Inquiry that the one that it's designed to be. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: As -- as you 10 might recall, Commissioner, my question wasn't that type 11 of question. I asked what the treaty meant to this 12 Witness and I -- I'm mindful of My Friend Mr. Ross' 13 concerns and I wasn't heading in that direction. 14 I'm not trying to ask Mr. Simon about 15 history but I'm -- my questions are directed to the 16 question of -- of why Mr. Simon decided to occupy the 17 Park lands. And my questions are whether the treaty had 18 a role in that. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well there's 20 a difference between a leading question and as Mr. 21 Downard said, making your argument, essentially through 22 this Witness. And -- and I -- I hope we don't have to 23 split hairs but there is a difference. And I ask you to 24 please ask questions of this Witness that will be helpful 25 and fair.
921 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I certainly 2 intend to -- to ask such questions, Mr. Commissioner. 3 Several of the expert witnesses have -- have referred to 4 the fact in their view that sometimes the -- the treaty 5 is forgotten in dealings with land in general and with 6 the Park lands in particular. 7 And I am concerned that that may happen 8 again here. That's not a suggestion that I'm going to 9 make an argument in questioning but I'm questioning 10 about -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Here, where 12 do you mean? In this Inquiry? 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You think 15 that -- I'm sorry, would you repeat that, please? 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I -- I said I'm 17 concerned that the treaty not be forgotten in this 18 Inquiry in relation to the events in the Park. And that 19 is why I asked Mr. Simon questions relating the treaty on 20 one (1) hand and the occupation of the Park on the other. 21 And I don't think that's a historical examination, you 22 know, in a broad sense. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 24 -- let's carry on and see if we can -- if we can do this 25 without raising anymore objections.
931 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 4 Q: Mr. Simon, I was asking you questions 5 about the Treaty and you've -- you've heard the concerns 6 of the Commissioner that we not get into too much of a 7 discussion but I think my -- my question if I can 8 remember it roughly was something and -- and my question 9 to you is: Did the -- did -- did your status as a First 10 Nation person in relation to the treaty relate to your 11 participation in the occupation of Ipperwash Park? 12 Was the treaty -- was your rights under 13 the treaty part of your -- excuse me. let me start -- was 14 your -- were your rights -- were your land rights in the 15 treaty related to your occupation of the Park? 16 A: My land rights in the treaty? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Yeah, I guess. But I think there was 19 like, another document around that showed that there was 20 -- like, what we come across from like, somebody was 21 researching and they found a document that was in some 22 kind of place, some archive somewhere that showed when 23 the -- I don't know, the Ipperwash Provincial Park land 24 was surrendered. 25 Well, I don't know if it was surrendered
941 at the time that it was that there was like a provision 2 in there that they were supposed to -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're not 4 going to get anywhere, Ms. Jones. 5 THE WITNESS: Mark -- mark off the -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 7 minute, Mr. Simon. Just a minute. We have to give the 8 lawyers a chance to say what's on their mind. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry, Mr. 10 Commissioner. It appears that Mr. Simon is reading from 11 something and I'm just wondering if that's the case and 12 if it is, if -- if it's something that we have access to. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he's 14 just looking down, Ms. Jones -- 15 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm just looking 16 down -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: -- at the map -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay, sorry. 20 THE WITNESS: -- of the Park. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 25 Q: Mr. Simon, you were describing
951 something about a surrender, if there was one. Do you 2 want to finish your answer to that question or have you 3 lost your train of thought? 4 A: It was -- there was like a provision 5 in there where they were supposed to mark out the burial 6 ground and it was supposed to be up -- kept -- kept up. 7 And then I believe, as a First Nations 8 person, that we had a right to go into the Park when it 9 was closed, to draw attention to that, if nobody ... 10 Q: So that's another reason you went 11 into the Park? Is that fair? 12 A: Yeah, yeah. 13 Q: And you mentioned a surrender. The 14 evidence has shown that there was what looked like a 15 surrender in 1928 of the part of the Stony Point reserve 16 that then became Ipperwash Park. 17 And have you heard anything about that 18 surrender? Were you aware of it at all? 19 A: Just that it was like -- like a shady 20 deal, we were outvoted, that our lands were sold by votes 21 from other reserves to sell our land. 22 We actually had no say in what happened to 23 our land. 24 Q: So whatever the details of the 25 surrender related to the Park, you considered it a shady
961 deal? 2 A: Yeah, a shady deal and -- 3 Q: Did you consider that the parts of 4 the Stony Point reserve that had become Ipperwash Park 5 had been fairly and validly bought from your people? 6 A: What's that? Pardon? 7 Q: Let me repeat that. Had you -- or 8 did you consider or was it your view that the lands from 9 Stony Point reserve that later became Ipperwash Park had 10 been validly and fairly sold by your people? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: I'd like to ask you some questions 17 about when you and other occupiers first entered the Park 18 and I'd ask you to -- to explain some of the description 19 you had or made to Ms. Vella. 20 As I understand your description you were 21 in your car -- 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: On September 4th when you drove from 24 the built-up area of the military base to Ipperwash Park. 25 Is that right?
971 And there were several other cars with 2 you. I think you said a total of seven (7), eight (8) or 3 something like that? 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: And you and the other cars travelled 6 through a road in the military base and arrived at a 7 gateway to the Park on the eastern side of the Park. Is 8 that right? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And when you arrived there, I think 11 you said there were some OPP cruisers and Park staff 12 there. Is that right? 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: And can you just tell me, so I can 15 get a better picture of where different people were 16 situated. For example, as you drove towards that Park 17 gate you would be going roughly north, right? 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: And can you -- describe, roughly, 20 where the OPP cruisers were located? In other words, 21 were they Parked on the side of the road near the gate or 22 on the other side of -- of the gate on the same road or 23 inside the gate? Can you remember anything about that? 24 A: They were on the inside of the gate 25 and we were on the outside.
981 Q: So, the OPP cruisers were in the 2 Park? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And you mentioned some Park staff. 5 Were they there in cars or -- or -- 6 A: Trucks, I think it was. 7 Q: Yeah, in -- in Ministry-marked --? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And were there -- how many 10 were there? Were there one (1) or two (2) or five (5) or 11 do you have any --? 12 A: I don't recall how many. 13 Q: Do you remember whether there was -- 14 A: I just remember they were there. 15 Q: Do you remember whether there was 16 more than one (1) Ministry truck or car there? 17 A: Could have been, yeah, there was. 18 Q: Is it your impression -- 19 A: Well, they weren't right there. They 20 were, like, off in the background. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Like you can see a big -- you can see 23 a big area in there, anyways. 24 Q: Okay. And were those Ministry 25 vehicles or vehicle also inside the Park?
991 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And were any OPP or Ministry 3 cars or trucks outside the Park? Do you remember? 4 A: No. 5 Q: No. Okay. Thank you very much. 6 Counsel has just flashed up a picture of the -- of the 7 Park and -- thank you. And for our memory refreshing now 8 that we have, on the screen, Document Number 1002409, 9 which is, I believe, Exhibit P-61, could you, again -- if 10 you have the pointer handy -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- point to the -- Park entrance 13 where this happened. 14 A: Yeah, that's right there. 15 Q: Okay. And, so about how many OPP 16 cruisers were there inside the Park at that gate? Do you 17 -- do you remember? I think you had an approximation in 18 your testimony before -- 19 A: Yeah, approximately three (3) -- 20 three (3) cruisers around the gate and then others 21 around. 22 Q: Okay. And I guess -- they wouldn't 23 normally be there, right? 24 A: No. 25 Q: In other words, they were probably
1001 there expecting you. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And do you have any reason to think 4 that they were expecting you, except that they wouldn't 5 normally be there? 6 A: I don't know. I think everybody was 7 telling them that we were going to go in there. 8 Q: Do you know any more details about 9 that telling them, in other words, whether somebody had 10 told them that morning, today's the day, at about this 11 time? Do you have any information about that? 12 A: About that? No. 13 Q: No. Okay. 14 A: Just, everybody was always telling 15 them we're going to take that Park over. 16 Q: Okay. And you said there was one (1) 17 or more Ministry vehicles there. Did you recognize any 18 of the Ministry individuals there? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No. Do you know if the Park 21 Superintendent, Les Kobiashe was there? 22 A: I don't recall. 23 Q: Yeah, okay. And as -- as the 24 vehicles of occupiers pulled up, where was your vehicle? 25 Was it a line of vehicles?
1011 A: Not really. It was people that kind 2 of overshot and they went to the beach and they turned 3 around and came back. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And -- 6 Q: Okay. And then -- 7 A: Lined up on both sides, I guess -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- both sides of the road. 10 Q: And did the cars all stop and then 11 people got out and walked over to the gate? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Yeah. And you'd mentioned something 14 about that gateway normally being blocked by a concrete 15 block. Is that right? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Can you describe the concrete block? 18 Was it two (2) feet by five (5) feet and -- and three (3) 19 feet high, or -- or how big, roughly? 20 A: I'd say it was probably about four (4) 21 feet long, maybe about three (3) feet wide and a couple 22 feet high. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. So, that's a sizable 24 concrete block, I guess. 25 A: Hmm hmm.
1021 Q: And, had you seen it there on previous 2 days? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Had it been there for quite a while? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And do you know who'd put it there? 7 A: I think the Ministry put it there. 8 Q: And do you know why it was there? Was 9 that an entranceway that simply wasn't usually used for 10 the Park? 11 A: I'm not sure. Could have been like a 12 fire -- fire access or something. I don't know. 13 Q: Okay. And was that block normally, in 14 the past, placed on the driveway so that it blocked a 15 vehicle from entering that gate? 16 A: Yeah, and it blocked opening of the 17 gate. 18 Q: It blocked opening of the gate. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And was that block -- I think you -- 21 you testified the block had been moved from its normal 22 position when you arrived there on the evening or late 23 afternoon of September 4th? 24 A: Yes, it was. 25 Q: And was the block still in view
1031 somewhere? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And where had it been moved? 4 A: It had been pulled off -- pulled in -- 5 pulled in and kind off on the grassy area right here. 6 Q: So it had been pulled what? To ten 7 (10), twenty (20), thirty (30) feet, maybe? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And do you know -- did you see 10 it being moved? 11 A: No. 12 Q: No. Did you have any information 13 about how it had been moved? 14 A: No. Not that I recall. 15 Q: Yeah. Do you know whether it was 16 people from the army base, from your community that had 17 moved it or -- or ministry or police people that had 18 moved it? 19 A: I think it was ministry or police. 20 Q: Okay. That -- that sounds a little 21 odd to me. Would -- did they move it for some reason 22 completely separate from you folks coming or -- 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With respect, I don't 24 think it's appropriate to ask the Witness to speculate. 25 I believe this Witness indicated that he thought it might
1041 have been the police or the ministry but that he didn't 2 really know and didn't think it was people from his 3 community. 4 Now to ask him to speculate further on 5 that proposition, I suggest, is unfair. 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I -- I'm not 7 asking -- I don't want to ask him to speculate -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, but he 9 said he didn't know. 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yeah -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's already 12 said that. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 15 Q: Do you have any information at all 16 about who moved that block? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Now when you and other folks 19 who intended to occupy the Park pulled up, I think you 20 said you got out of the cars and walked toward the gate. 21 Is that right? 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: And were ministry or OPP people 24 standing outside of their cars or were they inside? 25 A: Yeah, they were outside of the cars.
1051 Q: And were they standing close to the 2 gate? 3 A: Yeah. There was -- 4 Q: And were they -- how many were -- 5 were standing close to the gate, roughly? Was it -- was 6 it one (1) or five (5) or -- 7 A: I'd say there were just two (2). 8 Q: I'm sorry. 9 A: Two (2). Two (2) police officers. 10 Q: Two (2) police officers? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is the mike 12 on? I'm not sure the mike is on. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Maybe -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, it is. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Maybe we could 16 just try and -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's okay. 18 It seems to be working. 19 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Maybe if you 20 lower the microphone just a little bit it -- that might 21 help. Let's try that. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 24 Q: So there were approximately two (2) 25 police officers standing inside the gate, is that right?
1061 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Yeah. And about how far from the 3 gate was it -- was it five (5) feet, or thirty (30) feet 4 or -- 5 A: Probably five (5) feet. 6 Q: I'm sorry? 7 A: Five (5) feet. 8 Q: Okay, so right by the gate. 9 A: Yeah, right by the gate. 10 Q: And were you a part of the group that 11 walked towards the gate and stood near the gate? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yeah. So was there any interaction 14 that you can recall between the -- the two (2) officers 15 on the other side of the gate and any members of the 16 occupation group? 17 Was there anything that was said or any -- 18 A: I think they started to say something 19 but then a tractor pulled up and they kind of looked 20 around, so I just kind of hold over -- holded the chain 21 open like that on a horizontal so we could get the chain 22 cutters up there. The bolt cutters and just cut the 23 chain and we went in. 24 Q: Okay. Who held the chain up? 25 A: I did.
1071 Q: Okay. And I think you mentioned that 2 Nicholas Cottrelle cut the chain. Is that right? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And did he use bolt cutters to -- 5 A: Yeah I think it was the bolt cutters. 6 Q: And so that suggests to me to cut one 7 (1) link of the chain. Is that right? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: And was it a chain that held a gate 10 shut or was it a chain that stretched right across the 11 roadway? 12 A: It was a chain that held the gate 13 shut. 14 Q: Okay. And when the chain was cut, 15 that left the gate free to open. Is that right? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And did the gate swing into the Park 18 or out of the Park? 19 A: Into the Park. 20 Q: Into the Park. And so what happened 21 next, I take it that the gate was opened by swinging it 22 into the Park? 23 A: Yeah. And police officers jumped in 24 their car and backed up their car and allowed us to pull 25 in.
1081 Q: Okay. So did the police officers in 2 any way that you can recall, attempt to stop the 3 occupiers from coming in the gate? 4 A: No. 5 Q: No, okay. And the police officers 6 got in their cars and drove where? Westerly through the 7 Park? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: I see. And in fact I think I recall 10 you saying you had ended up following one (1) of the 11 cruisers; is that right? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. Do you recall what the 14 Ministry person or persons did at that time? Did they do 15 something similar to the police? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Did they -- do you recall like 18 whether there was one (1) or two (2) Ministry people? 19 A: Yeah, I think there was. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: Ended up jumping in the line in front 22 of the police and I think they veered off towards the 23 maintenance building. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Whenever we got across to here they -
1091 - they turned off up this way. And the police carried on 2 over this way to the permit office. 3 Q: Okay. So did you get any form of 4 opposition from the police officers or Ministry staff as 5 the group of occupiers proceeded through the gates and 6 down the road into the Park? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No. Did you recall -- well let me -- 9 let me follow the -- the point you made. So did the -- 10 did the occupiers, such as yourself, then proceed to the 11 maintenance shed area? Is that what you suggested? Or 12 the reservoir area? I'm -- I'm just not sure. 13 A: Let's see, we kind of followed the 14 police over here and then while everybody was kind of 15 standing around, there's people going around kind of 16 trying to like, I don't know, I guess securing the area. 17 And then people come back -- the Ministry 18 people came back from their maintenance building and 19 handed some keys over to some of our people. 20 Q: Do you remember how many Ministry 21 people were there when the keys were handed over? Was it 22 one (1) or two (2) or three (3)? 23 A: Two (2). 24 Q: Two (2)? 25 A: Yeah.
1101 Q: Do you remember if one (1) of them 2 was -- was Les Kobiashe, the Park Superintendent? 3 A: I'm not sure if it was him or not. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: But I think it could have been. I'm 6 not sure though, I'm not. 7 Q: And did you see the -- did you see 8 the keys being handed over? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. Were you -- 11 A: I wasn't right there but I seen him 12 handing the keys over. 13 Q: Okay. And did you hear, at that 14 time, anything -- well let me just pause -- were there 15 OPP officers standing around at the point where the keys 16 were handed over? Close -- close to that transfer? 17 A: Yeah, kind of I guess. Like the 18 police were all, where is this, yeah, the police were all 19 Parked along these roads here. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And the hand over like, took place 22 over here somewhere. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: And then we were all kind of sitting 25 over here.
1111 Q: Okay. Did you hear anything said by 2 the Park staff when they were handing over the keys? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No. 5 A: No, I couldn't overhear. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Okay. I'd like to ask you some 10 questions on the issue of guns in the Park. I believe 11 that you mentioned that you had something like seven (7) 12 guns yourself at the time of the occupation. 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: I think there was two (2) .22's, two 15 (2) shotguns, a couple of high powered rifles, something 16 like that. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And you -- what would you use 19 the .22's for? Would you -- I think you said to hunt 20 squirrels and rabbits, is that right? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And just so I understand how 23 familiar you are with the use of those guns, I take 24 you've -- you've shot a few squirrels and rabbits with 25 your guns.
1121 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: And did you shoot squirrels and 3 rabbits when you were a young boy? In other words -- 4 A: A young boy? Yeah. 5 Q: Have you been shooting, say, 6 squirrels and rabbits for quite a few years? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: Do you remember when you first shot a 9 squirrel or rabbit were you -- how -- how old about were 10 you? 11 A: I don't know how old I was. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Maybe about eleven (11) -- ten (10), 16 eleven (11), somewhere. I think I had BB guns and pellet 17 guns all the while I was growing up. 18 Q: Okay. And do you remember what age 19 you were when you got your first gun? Was it a .22, I'll 20 bet? Did you get -- 21 A: I don't know. My first gun was a BB 22 gun -- 23 Q: And then -- 24 A: -- and I was like eight (8) years old 25 when I got that.
1131 Q: Okay. And when did you get your 2 first real gun if I can call it that? 3 A: Real gun? A firearm? I think 4 probably I was maybe fourteen (14), fifteen (15). 5 Q: And what do you shoot with your gun 6 when you were about fourteen (14)? Squirrels, rabbits? 7 A: Yeah, squirrels, rabbits, ducks and 8 geese and -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I think it was a twelve (12) gauge. 11 Q: A shot -- twelve (12) gauge shot gun 12 may have been your first gun? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. And would it be fair to say 15 you've shot a lot of squirrels and rabbits and ducks in 16 your life? 17 A: Yep. 18 Q: Would it be dozens or hundreds or -- 19 A: I don't know. Hundreds I guess, 20 maybe. 21 Q: Yeah. And have you shot squirrels 22 and rabbits with guns other than a shot gun? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: Like a -- 25 A: .22s.
1141 Q: Like a .22? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And would you require a fair bit of 4 good aim in order to get a squirrel or a rabbit? 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: And would you sometimes bring down a 7 squirrel or a rabbit when they were moving? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: Would you -- what would you do with 10 the squirrel or rabbit? Would you eat some -- eat them 11 sometimes? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yeah. And you mentioned you had 14 shotguns. I take it you've probably shot a fair number 15 of geese and ducks in your -- in your life? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: Would it be fair to say you've shot 18 hundreds of them? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. And sometimes they're 21 flying when you shoot them, is -- 22 A: Yeah, yeah. Yes, they are. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. And you mentioned you had a 24 couple of high powered rifles at that time, in 1995 -- 25 A: Hmm hmm.
1151 Q: Now what would you use those for? 2 What would you hunt with those? 3 A: Deers. Deer hunting. 4 Q: Mostly deer? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And what kind of guns were those high 7 powered rifles that you had in 1995? Do you remember? 8 A: What kind of guns? One (1) was a two 9 twenty-three (223) and another was a -- like a seven 10 point six two (7.62). 11 Q: I -- just -- sorry, I just didn't 12 hear. 13 A: One was a 223 calibre and the other 14 was a seven point six two (7.62). 15 Q: Okay. And have you shot deer with 16 both those guns? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And how many deer have you shot? 19 More than five (5) in -- 20 A: Oh, yeah. 21 Q: Okay. And as of -- let's just say 22 from 1995. Before 1995 had you shot deer before 1995? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Had you shot more than five (5) or 25 ten (10) deer?
1161 A: Oh, yeah. 2 Q: Had you shot more than twenty (20) or 3 thirty (30) deer? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Had you shot more than eighty (80) 6 deer? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Had you shot more than a hundred 9 (100) deer? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: So you've shot a lot of deer -- 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: -- as of 1995. And did you -- did 14 you use the deer for food? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And would you share your food with 17 other people in your community? 18 A: Hmm hmm. Yes, I would. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And had you shot deer on the Stony 23 Point reserve? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And had --
1171 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: Yeah. And had you shot deer off the 5 Stony Point reserve? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Yeah. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Were deer fairly common on the Stony 12 Point reserve as of 1995 or just once in a while or quite 13 common? Can you give us -- 14 A: Yeah, they were pretty common there. 15 Q: They were -- sorry? 16 A: Common. 17 Q: They were common? 18 A: Common, yeah. 19 Q: Okay. Does that mean you'd -- you'd 20 see deer once in a while coming through the reserve and 21 sometimes you'd go and shoot them? Is that right? 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: And would you shoot deer from quite 24 some distance, in other words, one hundred (100) yards or 25 two hundred (200) yards for instance?
1181 A: Yeah. 2 Q: How far would you -- let -- let me 3 rephrase that. What would be a long shot for a deer that 4 could bring it down with your gun and your skill? 5 A: With my gun? It would -- a long shot 6 would probably be about three hundred (300) yards. 7 Anything over three hundred (300) yards. 8 Q: So, have you brought down a deer at 9 three hundred (300) yards? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yeah. Have you brought several at 12 that distance? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: What about deer at close distance? I 15 imagine sometimes you encounter a deer at fairly close 16 distance and you would -- have you shot a deer twenty 17 (20) yards away? 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: Yeah. Have you shot quite a few deer 20 at twenty (20) yards away? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And I asked you how many deer 23 approximately you'd shot before 1995. Have you continued 24 to shoot deer since 1995? 25 A: Hmm hmm.
1191 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry. I'm going 2 to -- I -- I think that this Inquiry is intended to 3 explore the events that gave rise to and led to the 4 shooting death of Dudley George. I don't see the 5 relevance of eliciting evidence concerning events 6 subsequent to those events unless they are clearly 7 related to them. 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, Mr. 9 Commissioner, I won't -- I will withdraw that question 10 although I have some concerns about restricting 11 questioning about something as fundamental in a First 12 Nations context as hunting. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 14 obviously the -- the experience he had with guns prior to 15 '95 is very relevant and I understand why you're asking 16 those questions but -- 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'll stop at 18 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 21 Q: Is it -- did you consider your 22 hunting activity as something that was connected you to 23 your traditions and heritage as a First Nations person? 24 A: Did I -- I? Well, I don't know. 25 Yeah I guess. We need to do it to eat.
1201 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. Were -- did other 2 members of your family hunt as well? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: For example, which members of your 5 family? 6 A: My brother, my uncles, cousins. 7 Q: Did your mother hunt? 8 A: No. I don't know I think she did go 9 hunting one (1) time; she found a deer that was on the 10 road. 11 Q: You said your uncles hunt? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. So, it's a pretty common thing 14 in your family to be a hunter? 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: Okay. And are other members of your 17 family fairly skilled hunters as well? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Are some of them better hunters than 20 you or no? 21 A: I don't know. Probably. 22 Q: Okay. Were other -- I -- I think 23 that the evidence has been that other individuals living 24 in the -- the military reserve after 1993 were also 25 hunters. Were you aware of other people who were --
1211 other First Nations people who were living on the 2 military base after 1993 who also hunted? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Yeah. Were there -- 5 A: Pretty much everybody did. 6 Q: Pretty much everybody did. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And they would hunt deer and 9 rabbits and squirrel and geese and ducks; is that fair? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: So, quite a bit of wild game food 12 came into the community there on Stony Point; is that 13 right? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And would you share some of that with 16 Elders? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And would other people who brought in 19 game as well? 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: And is it fair to say there were 22 quite a few hunters in the group living at Stony Point 23 after 1993 who were pretty good shots with a gun; is that 24 right? 25 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah.
1221 Q: Yeah. Now the -- the allegation was 2 made in September 6th and September 7th, 1995 after the 3 confrontation at the Park that First Nations people had 4 fired on the police officers coming towards the Park. 5 Have you heard that allegation? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: Now, you on the other hand, have said 8 that to your knowledge, there were no guns in the Park at 9 that time or used in the Park at that time. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Did you see first hand the officers 14 marching down the road, down East Parkway towards the 15 Park or were you too far away to see that? 16 A: I was too far away. I was gone down 17 the road by then. 18 Q: Now, if -- if I suggest to you that 19 the officers marched down East Parkway Drive towards the 20 Ipperwash Park area in a formation, with a line more or 21 less across East Parkway Road, and several rows; does 22 that square with what you've heard? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: And if that formation of officers 25 marched down the road towards the Park --
1231 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 2 minute -- 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Mr. 5 Klippenstein. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I may 7 have misunderstood Mr. Marlin's -- Mr. Marlin Simon's 8 evidence but I heard him say he didn't see the 9 confrontation, that he was away and he came back in time 10 to see a bus and a car drive out. 11 I -- I didn't hear him say he was present 12 during that time or witnessed it. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Mr. 14 Commissioner, I put a hypothetical question to -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- Mr. Simon 17 which he agreed and I think everyone would agree is 18 fairly reasonable. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 22 Q: Now, again, Mr. Simon, I -- I am 23 putting the hypothetical question to you, because you 24 didn't see it, but I'm asking you to -- to consider the 25 situation where a number of OPP officers in a -- well
1241 what I'll call a riot squad were lined up across East 2 Parkway and in several rows and marching toward Ipperwash 3 Park. 4 And is it fair to say that if any of the 5 protesters in the Park had a gun at that time and place, 6 and chose to fire at the OPP officers who were -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is a 8 bit more than a hypothetical question, with all due 9 respect, Mr. Klippenstein. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Ross is behind 11 you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 13 Mr. Ross. Would -- would you like to -- this is a bit 14 more than a hypothetical -- 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Commissioner, I was 16 going to say that moves into the realm of absolute 17 speculation. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 19 It's not hypothetical. It's -- that's exactly right. 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, I'm a -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You -- you 22 have some evidence that you know is coming or you have 23 anticipated evidence or evidence or having us to believe, 24 you want to put anticipated evidence or evidence that you 25 believe to him and have him comment on it, I don't -- I
1251 think that's a fair question. 2 But to ask him to speculate on 3 speculations two (2) or three (3) times is just not 4 helpful to anybody -- not to anybody. 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, Mr. 6 Commissioner, I did ask Mr. Simon whether he was aware of 7 the allegation that the OPP made -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That was -- 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- which has 10 never been withdrawn that the -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. That 12 was a fair question. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: And so having 14 that -- that was a -- something that was within the 15 knowledge of this Witness and I am now asking based on 16 that and the hypothetical that I put to him, another 17 question that derives from that and I think that's fair 18 and I think that's -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't -- 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- my 21 submission. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- get that 23 from what you just went through. Perhaps you asked it in 24 a way that made it seem like it was an impossible 25 question for anybody to answer --
1261 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Hmm hmm. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- let alone 3 this witness. Why don't you try it again? 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Okay. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 7 Q: Mr. Simon, you've heard the -- your - 8 - are you aware of the allegation or let me back up. Are 9 you aware of an allegation by the OPP that protesters in 10 the Park fired on OPP officers at -- 11 A: Yes, I am aware. 12 Q: Okay. And first of all -- do you -- 13 are you aware of anything that would support that 14 allegation? 15 A: No. 16 Q: I am asking you to take what you have 17 just told us about First Nations hunters in the base, 18 where some of the -- first of all, you were a First 19 Nation hunter and you were -- you were in the Park on 20 September 6th in the evening; is that right? 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: Were there other hunters from the 23 base, in other words, other First Nations people living 24 at the base who you knew to be hunters who were part of 25 the occupation on the evening of September 6th?
1271 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm just concerned 4 about the record, Mr. Commissioner. Mr. Simon, as you'll 5 recall, you have to answer the question -- 6 THE WITNESS: Oh yeah -- 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- either yes or no. 8 Because when you say "Hmm hmm", that comes on the record 9 as a neutral and -- 10 THE WITNESS: Oh yeah? 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- and we can't then 12 decipher later -- later whether you meant yes or no. So, 13 that's just a -- to help us out here and help out the 14 Court Reporter. Thank you very much. 15 THE WITNESS: All right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 20 Q: Now, so your -- your knowledge is 21 that there were First Nations hunters living at the base 22 who actually were in the occupation group at the Park at 23 the evening of September 6th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yes. And if the -- if the allegation
1281 that you're aware of that was made by the OPP that they 2 were fired upon, do you think -- first of all, let me 3 back up; are you aware that any OPP officers were injured 4 by gun fire on the evening of September 6th? 5 A: I never heard of any. 6 Q: Yeah. You haven't heard of any? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Any -- any officers who were 9 injured -- 10 A: None. 11 Q: -- by gunfire? Okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Do you think that it's conceive -- 16 let me rephrase that. Do you think it's possible that if 17 First Nations hunters who were in the Park on September 18 6th as occupiers -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 20 Jackson. This is -- this is the question that I think is 21 going to be objected to. 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I think so. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Ms. 24 Jackson..? 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, Mr.
1291 Commissioner. It's quite clear that My Friend, Mr. 2 Klippenstein is endeavouring to establish an evidentiary 3 foundation -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- that down at 6 the end of -- of the road he may advance before you that 7 had a shot been fired by experienced hunters behind the 8 fence or the other side of the fence -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- it's likely 11 that -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- it would 14 successfully have made contact -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I see. 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- and that, 17 Mr. Commissioner, may properly be the subject matter of 18 argument. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: In my 21 respectful submission it is entirely improper to elicit 22 such an opinion through this Witness. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 24 that's where Mr. Klippenstein is going. And I think 25 that's argument and it's perfectly legitimate argument
1301 for you to make based on the evidence that you have on 2 the record now. 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, Mr. 4 Commissioner -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In other 6 words, you have the evidence on the record which allows 7 you to make the argument that you intend to make. 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, Mr. 9 Commissioner, what I propose to do is -- I think -- I 10 would submit this a potentially important point and I 11 would propose to qualify Mr. Simon as an expert hunter to 12 give his expert testimony on that issue. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: If I may, Mr. 14 Commissioner. Mr. Simon has not been tendered as an 15 expert witness and I don't think it is appropriate that 16 he be qualified as one and whereas -- we gave no such 17 notice. 18 I was not requested by My Friend to 19 consider qualifying Mr. Simon. What I'm concerned about 20 is that evidence is being -- if one is going to put a 21 hypothetical to the witness, based on factual assumptions 22 that are not in evidence, then the onus is on the person 23 cross-examining to educe that evidence, just as a general 24 observation. 25 So, in my respectful submission, he ought
1311 not be qualified as an expert. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't 3 you ask him, Mr. Klippenstein, about himself? He -- he's 4 already testified that he's a pretty good hunter; that 5 he's got a pretty good shot -- 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Hmm hmm. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that 8 he's shot a lot of game. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Hmm hmm. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't 11 you ask him what would have happened if he -- he had done 12 what you're asking? Why don't you ask him about himself? 13 And I think that's a perfectly legitimate question -- 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- which 16 allows you to make the argument you want to make. 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, thank 18 you, Mr. Commissioner. I -- I often need help and I take 19 it wherever I can get it. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 21 what you're trying to do -- 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Hmm hmm. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and I'm 24 trying to be fair to you, but we have to be fair to 25 everybody else, as well.
1321 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I understand 2 and I anticipated there would be one (1) or two (2) or 3 more objections. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you still 5 have an objection? 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I 7 would really prefer that this Witness not be asked about 8 something speculative of what would have happened with 9 him. In my view, we -- we've got the witnesses -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- who were in the 12 Park. I -- I see you're trying to help Mr. -- Mr. 13 Klippenstein -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 15 think that's an improper question, depending on how he 16 puts it -- 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: But -- but it -- it 18 could be a provocation, Mr. -- Mr. Commissioner. He has 19 to live in this community after and I prefer -- I -- I 20 would -- I would -- if he's asking that question, I would 21 object to it and I'll tell you why. 22 It's obvious that this man is a good shot. 23 He can take down a squirrel, which is a little animal. 24 It's a big -- a little smaller than a police officer. He 25 can take down a deer at three hundred (300) yards, so we
1331 know he's a good shot. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And that's the most 4 that's going to come out of it and to ask him what would 5 have happened if he was thrown a rifle and he just 6 catches and points and pull -- we know he'd be charged 7 with murder. That's what would have happened. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: So, to -- to take him 10 into that area, I think is unfortunate and it -- it does 11 not help the Inquiry. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 13 think it helps the Inquiry either. I really don't. I'm 14 trying to be helpful, but I think we may be being too 15 helpful. I don't think it helps the Inquiry. I think 16 you have the information on the record. All other 17 Counsel can see that. That allows you to make the 18 argument you intend to make -- it appears. 19 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Okay. I will, 20 in the view of Mr. Ross' objection, withdraw the question 21 and I -- I don't know if this is, given the early start 22 time, an appropriate time for a break, but I'm in you -- 23 I'm in your hands on that. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it 25 is a good time for a break. Thank you very much, Mr.
1341 Klippenstein. Thank you, Mr. Simon. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 3 adjourned until 1:15. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 12:00 p.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 1:18 p.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed. Please be seated. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just a couple of 14 announcements. First of all, for Counsel's information, 15 Mr. Millar will be sending out the transcripts of the in- 16 camera portion of yesterday by electronic mail tomorrow, 17 so you should be on the look out for that. 18 Secondly, Mr. Commissioner, I understand 19 that you have an announcement that you will be making at 20 the end of the proceedings today, so I would urge Counsel 21 to please stay behind. 22 And finally, Mr. Rosenthal will be 23 commencing his cross-examination now, with the consent of 24 Mr. Klippenstein. Mr. Rosenthal has some commitments on 25 Tuesday afternoon that necessitates this, so, I will turn
1351 the podium over, with your permission -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- Commissioner, to Mr. 4 Rosenthal. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank -- thank you 10 very much, Mr. Commissioner and thank you Mr. 11 Klippenstein for accommodating me in this respect and, 12 sorry, Mr. Simon, you didn't have a say in it but I'm 13 gong to be asking you some questions now, if I may. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A lot of 15 people probably don't know that you teach mathematics. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That's true. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 18 probably one of the few lawyers that knows a great deal 19 about mathematics. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well I'm happy to 21 switch to that topic if you wish, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Let the "H" be in 24 infinite dimensional Hilbert space and -- no, sorry. 25
1361 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: Now, Mr. Simon, as you know I'm 3 appearing at these proceedings on behalf of some people 4 from Aazhoodena including your mother and your brother 5 and -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- many of your cousins. And on 8 behalf of my clients and certainly myself we are very 9 appreciative of all you've done for Stony Point and of 10 your evidence here at this Inquiry. 11 Now, I'd like to ask you about several 12 things in the history, some of which you've testified 13 about, some of which you haven't yet mentioned. 14 Beginning in June of 1993 there was a 15 planting of a peace tree and a burying the hatchet 16 ceremony you told us that you attended -- 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: Is that correct? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Now, my understanding is that a 21 ceremony like that is quite sacred and important to 22 people who -- First Nations people who participate in 23 such a ceremony; is that fair to say? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And that it represents a -- a deep
1371 and sacred commitment to non-violence in pursuit of your 2 struggle -- 3 A: Yes, it is. 4 Q: -- is that fair? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Now among the people there, Dudley 7 George was in attendance; was that correct? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: And can you give us a rough estimate 10 as to how many people were there in that June 1993 11 burying the hatchet ceremony? 12 A: How many people were there? I -- 13 geez -- 14 Q: I'm sorry? 15 A: I'd say about maybe fifty (50) at the 16 most. 17 Q: All right. About fifty (50) people? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And various people actually took 20 turns in actually planting the tree and burying the 21 hatchet; is that correct and -- 22 A: Yeah -- 23 Q: -- doing the actual digging? 24 A: Everybody took turn taking -- 25 Q: Everybody took a turn --
1381 A: -- digging the dirt. 2 Q: So, that's -- that's part of the 3 idea, that everybody contributes to the burying of the 4 hatchet and the -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- planting of the tree? And by 7 contributing they affirm their commitment to the 8 principle of non-violence in pursuing the struggle? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Now, we heard -- you told us that 11 nonetheless, when you went to the Park, moving ahead a 12 couple of years now, there were some bats and sticks and 13 rocks that were brought. 14 I gather that -- that those were for 15 self-defence, but not for offensive purposes; is that 16 fair? 17 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 18 Q: And only if they were regarded as 19 self-defence could that be consistent with the commitment 20 you had made a couple of years earlier? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: But then even for self-defence, you 23 didn't bring any guns? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And you've told us, I gather, that
1391 that was something you -- didn't want to get into 2 anything like, for sure. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Even for self-defence; is that 5 correct? 6 A: Even for self-defence? No, well -- 7 no, I don't -- I don't know. No, I guess not, unless I, 8 like, really, really wanted to do, I guess. Get right 9 pushed right into a corner, I suppose, then maybe pick up 10 some guns and try to fight back. 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: Use whatever you can to fight back. 13 Q: All right. But at any event, there 14 certainly were no guns in the Park -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- brought by the First Nations 17 people? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: That is correct is it -- sorry -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- you have to say something -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- that would be recognizable by a 24 transcript. So, it is correct, is it not, that there 25 were no guns --
1401 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- brought to the Park by the First 3 Nations people? 4 A: Yes, that's correct. 5 Q: Thank you. Now, I also believe that 6 you attended in March of 1994, a tribute to Dudley and 7 Clifford. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And that celebrated the -- the fact of 10 surviving the first winter in Stoney Point in many years; 11 is that correct? 12 Q: Were you at the Inquiry when your 13 mother testified about that occasion? 14 A: No, I wasn't. 15 Q: Okay. Well, she described Dudley as 16 joking around on that occasion, trying to -- sort of 17 hiding from her as she was talking about him and so on 18 and being in a very lighthearted -- acting in a 19 lighthearted manner, and so on. 20 Is that consistent with your observation? 21 A: Hmm hmm. Yes, it is. 22 Q: What -- what kind of -- we've heard 23 that Dudley was that kind of guy. Tell us a little bit 24 from your point of view what kind of guy Dudley was. 25 A: I don't know. Like I said before, he
1411 was a comical guy and he was just fun to be around -- 2 joking and -- I don't know -- just a fun guy to be 3 around. 4 Q: And when you saw him on the last three 5 (3) days of his life, September 4, 5, 6, was he his 6 regular self? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: Easygoing, fun guy to be with? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: You saw him quite a few times in the - 11 - in the course of those three (3) days, I gather? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Sorry, my -- My Friend reminds me that 14 you said, "hmm hmm", again. 15 A: Yes, yes, yes, yes. 16 Q: And we all say that quite a lot, but 17 if you would -- could say "yes" or "no" -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- rather than "hmm hmm", it would be 20 appreciated. Thanks. 21 A: All right. 22 Q: Now, we had some testimony here from 23 Bonnie Bressette. I don't know if you attended any of 24 that, but she told us that on the last day of his life, 25 Dudley assured her that the police won't hurt people
1421 because we're not armed, or words to that effect. 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: Did you have any discussions in that 4 direction with Dudley? 5 A: Did I have any discussions? 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: No. It was just -- he kind of missed 8 out on when we took over the barracks part so he kind of 9 made a more of a commitment to the taking over the Park. 10 Q: So he was actively involved -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- in the taking over the Park? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Now, there was a plan to takeover the 15 Park. I gather there was no plan to takeover any 16 cottages or anything like that anywhere nearby; is that 17 right? 18 A: No. 19 Q: There was -- there was never 20 consideration of anything like that, was there? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Now, in those several days, September 23 4, 5, 6, were you aware of any undercover police officers 24 in the Park? 25 A: No, we just kind of figured there
1431 would be some in there. 2 Q: I see, but you didn't have any 3 specific knowledge yourself? 4 A: No, I didn't know exactly who. 5 Q: You told us that -- that your car 6 didn't have a muffler on it and it was pretty loud, 7 therefore, right? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And many of the other cars that some 10 of the First Nations peoples had might have also been 11 without mufflers; is that fair to say? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Or with faulty mufflers, correct? 14 A: Yes, yes. 15 Q: Now, cars driving around there could 16 make quite a lot of noise? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And to somebody who wasn't very 19 knowledgeable, could some of the noises from those cars 20 without mufflers or with very badly damaged mufflers 21 sound like gunshots? 22 A: Yeah, I suppose, if they had a 23 backfire. 24 Q: Now, moving ahead then to when you 25 came back down to the Park and you saw that Dudley had
1441 been shot and you told us that you observed him being 2 placed in the OPP WHO car; is that correct? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And you told us that at that time the 5 police were leaving. Right? 6 A: Yeah, they were pretty much already 7 gone by then. I don't where our picture went. 8 Q: They were going down East Parkway 9 Drive? 10 A: Yeah. Yes, they were. Let's see, I 11 kind of got out of my car and they were just, like, 12 putting Dudley into the -- into the OPP WHO car -- 13 Q: And did you see the backs of some 14 police officers, then as they went down the road? 15 A: Not really, no. 16 Q: Why not? 17 A: I never. They were putting Dudley in 18 the car. Somewhere there's a turnstile thing in here 19 somewhere. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: And then there was a gateway right 22 beside it on this side of it somewhere, I think. And 23 then that's where the whatch-ya-ma-call-it was -- the 24 dumpster went flying through that gate and it was out 25 here somewhere and then I come out -- whenever I got out
1451 of my car there was -- they were, like, putting -- kind 2 of putting Dudley into the thing -- into that car and the 3 buses and cars were all backing up and moving around and 4 people are all running around. 5 Q: I'm sorry, what was the last thing you 6 said? 7 A: People were just running around all 8 over the place. 9 Q: Yes. It was -- I think you used the 10 word, "confusion"? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And people were just upset and -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- and the police weren't there any 15 more. 16 A: No. Just -- 17 Q: Evidently they killed Dudley and then 18 left. 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: "Yes"? 21 A: Yes, they did. Yes, they did. 22 Q: Now, did you see any evidence of the 23 police offering any kind of first aid to Dudley? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you hear anybody say that the
1461 police had offered any kind of first aid to Dudley? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you hear any evidence of the 4 police offering any ambulance assistance to Dudley? 5 A: No. 6 Q: So, as far as everything you 7 understood, they killed him and then split; is that 8 right? 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Excuse me, I'm sorry -- 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yes, it is. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry. Mr. 12 Commissioner, with respect, Mr. Rosenthal's questions are 13 assuming, I think, connotations that perhaps aren't 14 appropriate. The notion that the police killed Dudley 15 George and then left, I'm not sure that that's a fair 16 characterization of the situation. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He wasn't 18 dead, I presume, at that point in time. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's right. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, from 21 everything -- he -- he came right afterward, Mr. 22 Commissioner, and from everything he -- he saw -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They shot 24 him -- they shot and left. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
1471 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That is 2 certainly accurate. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, as to whether 4 he was dead at that point, that's -- that's correct that 5 he was probably not dead at that point and, in any event, 6 the Witness does not know whether he was or not, but they 7 shot him in a way that turned out to be fatally and then 8 disappeared. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 11 Q: As far as you could tell and as far as 12 everything you know about it; is that correct, sir? 13 A: Yeah, yes. 14 Q: Now, your mother testified that on the 15 evening of September 6, she heard that there was 16 something terrible that had gone on in the Park and she 17 was anxiously concerned about you and your brother and 18 started with her mother to drive down towards the Park 19 and then on the way to the Park, there were some cars 20 coming up from the Park and one (1) of them, she said, 21 was your car coming up from the Park and that you had 22 said something to her to the effect of, the cops have 23 shot up everything. 24 Do you recall that, sir? 25 A: Yeah, yes, I do. Yeah, my mother was
1481 one (1) of the cars that I stopped and talked to on my 2 way back up to the -- up to the front gatehouse. 3 Q: And -- and that was right after you 4 had seen Dudley being put into the OPP Who car and then 5 you went back to the built-up area? 6 A: Yeah, yes. 7 Q: And then did you see what your 8 mother's car did after you told her the cops had shot up 9 everything? You -- I gather you also warned her, she'd 10 better not go down there, the cops have shot up 11 everything, right? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And did you see what happened to her 14 car or you just kept going yourself? 15 A: I think I looked in the back mirror 16 and she was turning around or something. I don't know. 17 Q: All right. Okay. Thank you. Now, 18 you found a casing that you turned in later to the SIU. 19 Is that correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And were you ultimately told that the 22 casing that you found had been a casing from a bullet 23 fired by officer Kenneth Deane on that night? 24 A: Nobody ever told me that, no. 25 Q: I see. Well, I understand that there
1491 will be evidence to that effect. 2 Now, sir, could you tell us as best as you 3 can recollect, precisely where you found that casing? 4 A: Probably around the roadway -- around 5 the -- right around the roadway on this side of the 6 roadway over here somewhere. 7 Q: With your permission, Mr. 8 Commissioner, I can't see well enough to specify -- 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Do you want him to -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- for the 11 record -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps Ms. 13 Vella can help you describe it verbally. Ms. Vella, can 14 you describe -- 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- for the 17 record? Just the word -- 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I was going to actually 19 suggest, perhaps, that the Witness use a marker and mark 20 it directly. Perhaps that would be easiest? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But for the 22 record we want to have -- 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: For the record -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- a verbal 25 description of what he's showing.
1501 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah, if we mark it and 2 we mark the whole site plan as an exhibit, perhaps? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 6 Q: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Vella. I think 7 that would be appropriate. This might be important 8 evidence later on. 9 So, sir, could you as accurately as you 10 possibly can mark -- actually step up to the map itself, 11 put down the laser light and actually step up there and 12 mark as precisely as you can the location where you found 13 that casing? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Okay. It's suggested by Commission 18 Counsel, sir, that you might make an "X1" -- 19 A: X1? 20 Q: Put -- put an "X" as close as you can 21 -- a small "X" as close as you can to the location and 22 then put a "1" underneath that "X" so that if there are 23 other markings on that map, we will be able to 24 distinguish which one was yours. 25 Thank you very much.
1511 Now, Mr. Commissioner, I -- I will try to 2 describe it. It's -- appears to be on -- as far as the 3 map's concerned, on the lower side; in other words, the 4 right-hand side, if you were going east, on Eastern 5 Parkway Drive and just after the first beginning of the 6 bend but before the more sharp bend going south that 7 becomes Army Camp Road. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That 9 sounds -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: To the best of my 11 ability, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- sounds 13 like a good description. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: Now, sir, you told us that you were 19 charged after these events. I believe it was a month or 20 so later, that you were charged, or more perhaps? 21 A: Yeah it was sometime, a long -- I'm 22 not even sure how long. 23 Q: And -- and you were charged with 24 forcibly entering the Park; that was the offence you were 25 charged with, right?
1521 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And then you told us that it was 3 withdrawn by the Crown, because the Crown determined that 4 you had colour of right to be in the Park, right? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And you understood that that meant 7 that you believed in a factual situation which, if true, 8 would have justified you being in the Park, right? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And the factual situation, I gather, 11 would have been that this was Stony Point land? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now I understand that there were 14 approximately twenty-four (24) people charged with that 15 same offence as you. Is that -- accord with your memory, 16 sir? 17 A: Yes. That is... 18 Q: And although there were some people 19 who were brought to trial on some other charges, all of 20 the people who were charged with that offence had the 21 charges withdrawn for the same reason, the colour of 22 right, the consideration; is that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you again, sir, very much for 25 everything you've done for Stoney Point, including your
1531 testimony. 2 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner, for your 3 indulgence. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much, Mr. Rosenthal. I guess we're back to Mr. 6 Klippenstein. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That map, 8 evidently, is not yet an exhibit, the larger map and 9 Commission Counsel suggest that it be made an exhibit. 10 May it please be made the next exhibit? 11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-62, Your 12 Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-62. You 14 can mark it on the exhibit when you get to it. That's 15 fine. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-62: Drawing showing East Parkway 18 Drive on left, Army Camp Road 19 Centre Of Map Ipperwash 20 Provincial Park On Extreme Right 21 Of Map as marked by witness 22 Marlin Simon, Jr. 23 24 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 25 Q: Mr. Simon, Murray Klippenstein here
1541 again. I'd like to ask you about something you mentioned 2 as being in the Park on September 4th or 5th, or 6th and 3 that's firecrackers. 4 I believe you testified that kids and 5 maybe others, were lighting and exploding firecrackers in 6 the Park on -- on some of those days; is that right? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: And have you ever exploded a 9 firecracker? 10 A: Hmm hmm. Yes, I did. 11 Q: And I seem to vaguely recall from when 12 I was a kid that sometimes firecrackers come in packages 13 of fifty (50) or a hundred (100) tied together by their 14 fuses; is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Have you seen that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You know what I'm talking about? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And, I do remember once or twice, the 21 only naughty things I did when I was a boy was, I lit the 22 end of one (1) of those packages and they all went off 23 sequentially, pretty quickly. 24 Have you ever heard of that? 25 A: Yes.
1551 Q: Have you ever done that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And, is it fair to say that the result 4 is, you have fifty (50) or a hundred (100) firecrackers 5 going off one (1) after the other with little explosions 6 very quickly, one (1) after the other; is that right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And there has been reference in some 9 of the documents to police officers suggesting that they 10 heard machine gun fire. 11 Having heard -- have you ever heard a 12 machine gun fire? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yeah. Have you ever heard -- excuse 15 me, is it possible that having a string of firecrackers 16 going off in the way we just described in a pack, for 17 that to be interpreted as machine gun fire? 18 A: Yes, from a distance. 19 Q: Yeah, okay. And, did you see any of 20 the kids in the Park on September 4th or 5th or 6th, 21 light a pack of firecrackers like that? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: You did? Okay. I'd like to then, go 24 back to something you described and that is the incident 25 at the fence at the edge of the Park when I -- when some
1561 officers were near the fence, according to your 2 description, and one (1) of the officers was saying 3 things about who wants to be first and resulted in some 4 pepper spray being used. 5 Do you remember talking about that? 6 A: Yes, I do. 7 Q: And you were standing very close to 8 the fence at that point; is that right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You and several other protestors; is 11 that right? 12 Q: Yes. 13 Q: And so you were how far away from the 14 officer or officers who was talking that way? Was it 15 three (3) feet or four (4) feet or less or more? 16 A: I don't know. Probably about five 17 (5) feet away, ten (10) feet away maybe. 18 Q: Okay. And let me just read to you my 19 notes of what you said one of the officers said and then 20 I want to ask you some questions about. According to my 21 notes: 22 "One cop was kind of asking us which 23 one of us guys wants to be the first." 24 Does that sound right? 25 A: Yeah.
1571 Q: And then also: 2 "Who is going to be the first one out, 3 to get dragged out?" 4 Does that sound right? 5 A: I don't know. He never said "dragged 6 out". He said which one -- which one of you are going to 7 be the first one for us to take out. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Excuse me, Mr. 10 Commissioner. I think -- I'm not certain what this line 11 of questioning is aimed at in terms of -- except to put 12 the evidence which has already been given by this Witness 13 to him. And certainly if that evidence is going to be 14 read back to him and if it's appropriate that should be a 15 verbatim transcript. 16 And again, I'm not sure what the point is 17 of putting his evidence back to him in this context is. 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm just trying 19 to make sure I understand what Mr. Simon was getting at 20 when he reported what the officer said and I don't have 21 to read the transcript back. I can just ask maybe a 22 little bit about what he took that to mean. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 25 Q: You've just said that it sounded like
1581 the officer was saying that they would come and take you 2 out of the Park; is that right? 3 Did you understand the officer to be 4 threatening that they would arrest one (1) or more of 5 you? 6 A: They wanted us to come on the other 7 side of the fence so that -- I don't know -- so that 8 maybe they could arrest us or something. Lay a beaten on 9 us. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: They wanted to pick a fight right 12 away. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. Did he -- did you 14 understand him to mean that they might come into the Park 15 and arrest you? 16 A: Well, he kind of said that they 17 wanted us to be out in that Parking lot so that they 18 could get us out there. 19 Q: I see. So they were taunting you to 20 get you out of the -- out of -- into the Parking lot -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- so they could arrest you? Is that 23 your understanding of what they seemed to be suggesting? 24 A: They seemed to be suggesting that 25 they were going to lay a beating on us because there was
1591 police officers and they said they just had these brand 2 new telescopic clubs. They didn't -- you know, one was 3 just beating them on -- beating logs and fence posts and 4 sticks up with it. 5 Q: And were they -- 6 A: He was clubbing it and then he says, 7 yeah, I just want to try this one out. 8 Q: An officer said something like that? 9 And you've mentioned these batons or clubs -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- are they called ASPs? 12 A: ASP batons, yeah, ASPs. 13 Q: And you said they were telescopic? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And did some of the officers have 16 them in their hands at that occasion? 17 A: Yeah, yeah. 18 Q: And approximately how many, do you 19 remember? 20 A: Quite a few of them did. 21 Q: You think it would have been more 22 than three (3) or four (4)? 23 A: Some of them were hold -- some of 24 them -- yeah. Like there was everybody pretty much had 25 one in their hand and some of them had them extended out,
1601 some of them -- some of them like a -- made a motion like 2 that and then it just come popping out. And he says, 3 yeah, we want to try these out. 4 Q: So, can you just describe those 5 batons or is it -- is -- they're basically clubs, right? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Billy clubs? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Yeah. And when they are telescoped 10 in a folded position how long are they? 11 A: They were probably about a size of a 12 pen, maybe like quite a bit rounder. 13 Q: Quite a bit thicker than the pen? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: But the pen you're holding up is 16 something like six (6) or eight (8) inches? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And then you showed a flicking motion 19 to extend them; is that right? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And did some of them at that time do 22 that with their -- with their batons? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And when they were extended fully, 25 how long were they then?
1611 A: Probably about a foot and a half (1 2 1/2) long. 3 Q: About a foot and a half (1 1/2) and 4 about how thick? 5 A: They kind of taper off to the end and 6 then there's a big ball on the end. Big -- 7 Q: There's a -- there's a ball on the 8 end? 9 A: Yeah, like a big weight. I'd say 10 probably, I don't know, two (2) or three (3) inches 11 round. Two (2) inches round I'd say. 12 Q: Two (2) inches round. 13 A: Big heavy solid metal ball. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. And I didn't get an idea of 15 about how many officers had those batons or clubs out at 16 that point. 17 Was it -- was it five (5) or ten (10) do 18 you think that were visible? 19 A: I think they were standing probably - 20 - there was quite a long line of them. 21 They were all standing in formation. 22 There was a big long line of them standing along the 23 fence. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. And how far -- 25 A: Like they all had them.
1621 Q: They all had them? And how far from 2 the fence were -- were they? Just one (1) or two (2) or 3 three (3) feet from the fence or -- 4 A: No they -- 5 Q: -- four (4)? 6 A: -- were back a ways, about middle of 7 the parking lot. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And then there was one (1) cop in the 10 middle that was doing all the talking. 11 Q: And -- 12 A: There was one (1) cop down on the one 13 (1) end there and he was kind of beating up this picnic 14 tables or whatever was laying around. 15 Q: He -- he was striking a -- 16 A: Fence poles -- 17 Q: -- striking a picnic table with -- 18 A: String -- 19 Q: -- a club? 20 A: -- picnic tables and trees and I 21 forget what else was there. 22 Q: And were other officers swinging 23 their clubs? 24 A: They were like, standing in a ready 25 position.
1631 Q: Hmm hmm. And did you feel threatened 2 by those actions? 3 A: Yeah. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: You said "Hmm hmm". Did you mean -- 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: Yes, thank you. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: I think you testified later that -- 14 or later that day -- well, perhaps I should just clarify. 15 Do you recall what day and approximately what time that 16 was? Was that the 5th? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Yeah. And I believe, then, you 19 testified that Cecil Bernard George brought a scanner or 20 scanners that could interpret police signals, brought one 21 (1) to the Park. Is that right? 22 A: Yeah. That was on the 6th. 23 Q: On the next day, the 6th. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And I believe you said that either
1641 you or someone else had been able to pick up some 2 information using that scanner? 3 A: Yes, we did. 4 Q: And you'd mentioned something about 5 understanding or hearing through the scanner that the 6 police had despatched a T.R.U. team, is that right? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: And did you hear that yourself on the 9 scanner? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: Okay. And can you tell us about what 12 you heard on the topic of despatching the T.R.U. team? 13 Do you remember what you heard? 14 A: I heard them say, okay, T.R.U. team, 15 go, you're go. And then they responded, which T.R.U. 16 team or they said a soft T.R.U. team or something. And 17 they said, well which one is that, there's -- there's a 18 soft and a hard in a white suburban and in a black 19 suburban. 20 Q: I see. 21 A: And they come back with soft and they 22 said, so that's a white suburban. 23 Q: I see. And was it your 24 interpretation that those -- that the T.R.U. team was 25 being despatched to the Park?
1651 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you've said that you understood 3 the T.R.U. team to be a S.W.A.T. team? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And was it your understanding that 6 the S.W.A.T. team is quite heavily armed? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And can you describe what your 9 understanding of the T.R.U. team or S.W.A.T. team was at 10 that time? 11 A: My understanding? Just ... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: My understanding of what? S.W.A.T. 16 team? 17 Q: Do they have rifles? 18 A: Yeah. Special -- well, S.W.A.T. 19 stands for special weapons and tactics and the T.R.U.s 20 are tactics and rescue or something like that, so they're 21 loaded pretty good. 22 Q: And you said something like when you 23 heard that you felt something big was about to happen. 24 Is that right? 25 A: Yeah.
1661 Q: And can you elaborate on that? Did 2 you mean that because of the heavily armed and special 3 nature of a S.W.A.T. team there was possibly going to be 4 some kind of armed movement -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- on the Park? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And was that in the -- in the middle 9 of the evening on the 6th, say, eight o'clock, 10 thereabouts? Would that make sense? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: It would seem around there. 14 Q: And had you seen anything in the Park 15 that day that would appear to justify an armed S.W.A.T. 16 team coming out? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And then you said that when you heard 19 that a S.W.A.T. team was being dispatched to the Park, as 20 you understood it, and that you felt something big was 21 going to happen, that you didn't run away from the Park 22 and hide, did you? 23 A: I tried to round up more support for, 24 like -- but there wasn't really that many people around 25 and if somebody -- something big was going to happen, we
1671 needed as much help as we could get. 2 Q: So you left the Park with the 3 intention of coming back. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: So -- so you didn't leave the Park to 6 get away from the S.W.A.T. team, you left to come back 7 and, perhaps, be there when the S.W.A.T. team arrived. 8 Is that right? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And is that because you were going to 11 defend your people's land? 12 A: Well, see what was going on. 13 Q: Why did you want to come back to the 14 Park even though you thought a S.W.A.T. team was coming? 15 A: Why would I go back to the Park? To 16 help -- to help with my -- these are all my cousins and 17 brothers and uncles and -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- relatives, anyways. 20 Q: Okay. Can I ask you about the -- the 21 edge of -- of Stony Point -- the edge of the reserve. 22 You've mentioned, first of all, Army Camp Road, which 23 goes along the side of the Stony Point Reserve on the 24 outside of the reserve. Right? 25 A: Hmm hmm. Yes, it is.
1681 Q: And it runs from Highway 21 north 2 towards near the lake. Right? We're just getting an -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- an image up. Thank you very much, 5 Mr. Millar. All right. 6 A: Yes, it does. 7 Q: So, if you can just show with a 8 pointer, Army Camp Road and you're indicating a -- a road 9 that runs approximately northwest from Highway 21 in -- 10 in a more or less straight line towards the lake. Right? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And then there's also a road that's 13 pretty close to Army Camp Road that runs sort of side by 14 side with it, or parallel to it. Is that right? 15 A: Yes, there is. 16 Q: But that road is inside the reserve. 17 Is that right? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: And what's in between those two (2) 20 roads? Is there -- is there a fence? 21 A: Yes, there is. 22 Q: Yeah. And is it your understanding 23 that that fence is approximately the borderline of the 24 reserve? 25 A: Yeah. Yes, it is.
1691 Q: Okay. And that fence runs more or 2 less in a straight line from Highway 21 for -- what is 3 that, a mile or two (2)? 4 A: Yes, it is. 5 Q: Yeah. Okay, if you could take Exhibit 6 P-62, which is a site plan of the corner of Army Camp 7 Road -- and if I could get a little assistance. Thank 8 you. I could put that up on the easel. 9 I'm -- I'm going to ask you to point out 10 some items on this exhibit, so if you could walk over to 11 the exhibit, the site plan Exhibit P-62. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now I don't how your voice can be 16 recorded while you're there. Yes, if you wouldn't mind 17 taking that mike, thank you. 18 Now do you recognize the corner shown on 19 that site plan? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: And on the lower right-hand side of 22 that Exhibit is part of the Park, right? 23 A: Yes, it is. 24 Q: And about the middle of the site plan 25 is Army Camp Road. Is that right?
1701 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: And that's running north and south? 3 A: Yes, it does. 4 Q: And just to the right of Army Camp 5 Road which would be to the east is a line which looks 6 like a fence, is that right? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: I'm pointing -- or I'm asking you to 9 look a little farther down on the site map and a little 10 to your left. Further down and to the left. Further 11 left, there. Now that looks like a fence. 12 Would you understand that to be the fence 13 that we've just talked about that runs between Army Camp 14 Road and the road inside the reserve? Does that make 15 sense? 16 A: You mean this fence here? 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: Yeah. I guess so. There's a roadway 19 that goes like, Matheson Drive. 20 Q: But Matheson Drive is just off that 21 site plan, is that right? 22 A: Yes, it's down quite a ways. 23 Q: Right. So that line -- that straight 24 line we see there is the fence that runs beside Army Camp 25 Road all the way in a straight line to Highway 21, is
1711 that right? 2 A: Yes, sir, I think so. 3 Q: And that fence line is approximately 4 the border of -- of Stony Point Reserve, is that right? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: Now begin on that fence line at the 7 bottom and follow that fence line straight up and extend 8 it all the way to the top, right there, now that's 9 another fence line, right? 10 A: Yes, it is. 11 Q: Okay. And so when you extend the 12 fence that's the boundary of the reserve, you get a 13 straight line up to the other fence across the -- the 14 roadway there that continues toward the lake; is that 15 right? 16 A: Yes, you do. 17 Q: Now if you take that fence line which 18 is a -- an extension of the boundary reserve line, the 19 sandy Parking lot is to the right and to the east of that 20 line, right? 21 A: Yes, it is. 22 Q: So it looks like the sandy Parking 23 lot is on the inside of the extended reserve boundary, 24 right? 25 A: Yes, it does.
1721 Q: So it looks like the sandy Parking 2 lot is even inside Stony Point Reserve, right? 3 A: Yes, it does. 4 Q: Now you've mentioned that you saw 5 some blood stains on the sand where Dudley George fell, 6 right? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Can you point on that map 9 approximately where they are? Or where -- 10 A: Somewhere around here. He was trying 11 to get back to the turnstile I guess and he fell -- fell 12 right about here. 13 Q: Could you put a mark there with a 14 little "x". 15 A: "X2"? 16 Q: Yeah. So if you take the line of the 17 reserve that I just asked you to -- to draw with your 18 hand, it could look like Dudley George fell inside the 19 Stony Point Reserve, right? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: And when the police officers came 22 toward the fence on the sandy Parking lot, they were 23 inside that boundary line extension that I just asked you 24 to draw, right? 25 A: Yes. Do you want me to draw that?
1731 Q: I don't think I'll ask you to draw 2 that right now because it's a line connecting the two (2) 3 fences and you can see it. But can you point out the 4 sandy Parking lot area where the officers were standing. 5 A: The officers were standing like right 6 on in here. 7 Q: And so given the reserve boundary 8 line that I've just asked you to visualize, they would 9 have been inside the Stony Point Reserve land, is that 10 right? 11 A: Yes, they would have. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. 13 Simon. I have no further questions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very, Mr. Klippenstein. It's two o'clock now I think we 16 should just keep going. 17 I think Mr. Henderson or -- Mr. Henderson, 18 you said you had a few questions? 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: No, I said I 20 anticipated no questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No 22 questions, that's fine. 23 Mr. Ross, you weren't sure? 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No. Mr. Ross is -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm
1741 sorry. It's your clients so you'll go last. 2 Mr. Horton has no questions? 3 Mr. Eyolfson...? 4 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: No questions. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? 6 The Province of Ontario I believe said 7 they had one (1) question or -- 8 MS. KIM TWOHIG: It's just been answered, 9 thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. 12 Mr. Downard had a few questions? 13 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes, indeed, but the 14 ordinary order is for the OPP and the OPPA to proceed -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 16 The OPPA will probably take some time. Why don't we deal 17 with the OPP. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 22 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Simon. My name 23 is Andrea Tuck-Jackson, I'm here on behalf of the OPP. I 24 want to begin if I may, sir, in reference to some 25 evidence you gave the day before yesterday about the
1751 presence of Officer George Speck at certain community 2 meetings that took place at Aazhoodena, all right? 3 And you indicated that you understood that 4 Officer Speck attended at these meetings with a view to 5 investigating a complaint that had been initiated by 6 military personnel. Do I have that correct? 7 A: Yes, I do think so. Yes, I think so. 8 Q: All right. And it was on those 9 occasions when you understood that he was serving the 10 role as an investigator, that you noticed that he had a 11 sidearm on his person? 12 A: I think somebody noticed he had -- 13 I'm not sure if somebody -- like, yeah, they might have 14 noticed, but I know somebody -- like he had a uniformed 15 officer there and they said that they would be -- they 16 didn't want, like, officers wearing guns. 17 Q: All right, so just so that I'm 18 clear -- 19 A: At these meetings. 20 Q: Okay. Did you actually observe the 21 officers with sidearms? 22 A: Yes, I did -- a officer the one -- I 23 forget what his name was. He was -- he was a uniformed 24 officer. 25 Q: Okay. But there was another officer,
1761 I understood there, in plain clothes -- 2 A: Yeah, it was Speck. 3 Q: And that was Officer Speck. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. But just so that I'm -- 6 I'm clear on this point, it was your understanding that 7 when you saw him, meaning Officer Speck, there, whether 8 he was or was not in the company of a uniformed officer, 9 when you saw him there with a sidearm attached to his 10 belt, I'm assuming. Is that correct? 11 A: I don't recall if I seen one (1) on 12 Officer Speck or not. 13 Q: I'm sorry. Say that again. 14 A: I don't recall if I seen a sidearm on 15 Officer Speck. I don't think I did. 16 Q: All right. So then -- then I'd 17 better get this clear. The sidearm was on the uniformed 18 officer, not on Officer Speck? 19 A: Yes, it was. Yes, it was. 20 Q: All right. Now I understand. Okay. 21 In any event, whenever you saw Officer Speck in the 22 company of a uniformed officer who had a sidearm, they 23 were there in the capacity of investigating a complaint? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Good. Now, were you
1771 present when a member of your community requested that 2 the officer not attend with a sidearm? 3 A: I think I was there a couple of times 4 when the officers were asked not to bring sidearms. 5 Q: All right. And were you present to 6 hear what the officers' response was when that request 7 was made of them? 8 A: One -- the uniformed officer didn't 9 really know what to say, but George Speck turned around 10 and he said that that was a uniformed officer and it is 11 part of his uniform. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now you told us -- 13 again, I -- I think it was the day before yesterday. 14 You've been on -- on the seat for quite a while by this 15 point. 16 You told us that you -- and from what I 17 gather a number of others with whom you lived, worried 18 that the OPP would come into the barracks area after you, 19 as a community, moved there in July 1995. 20 That they'd come in, in effect, and oust 21 you. Is that correct? 22 A: Yeah, everybody kind of had that 23 feeling. 24 Q: And you'd agree with me, sir, that 25 never happened.
1781 A: Yes, it never happened. 2 Q: Okay. And, as I heard your evidence 3 in response to a question by My Friend, Ms. Vella, you 4 told us that if they had come in, your community hadn't 5 put in place any security measures to deal with that in 6 the barracks area? 7 A: No, none at all. None at all that I 8 know. 9 Q: All right. So, in other words, you 10 had not, as a community, amassed a collection of sticks. 11 Right? 12 A: You as a community? I don't know 13 about -- I know, myself, I had some sticks. 14 Q: What I mean -- let me -- let me 15 clarify the question and again, if there's any time where 16 my question's not clear, you tell me. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: All right? You told us in response to 19 Ms. Vella's question that, as a community, you didn't put 20 any security measures in place to deal with the 21 possibility of the OPP coming in to oust you, as some of 22 you had feared. Right? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: Okay. And I gather what you meant by 25 that -- and you can correct me if I'm wrong -- but I
1791 gather what you meant by that is, you didn't put together 2 rocks, you didn't put together clubs, you didn't put 3 together sticks. 4 A: No. 5 Q: Right? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Okay. That's what I thought. Now, I 8 trust, sir, that as you and your fellow occupiers moved 9 into the Park on the evening of September the 4th, 1995, 10 once again you were concerned that the OP may -- the OPP 11 would come in and oust you. Correct? 12 A: Yeah. Yes, it is. 13 Q: All right. And this time, you did -- 14 and when I say, You, I should be more specific -- you and 15 your fellow occupiers did take steps to put security 16 measures in place in the sense that you brought in 17 rocks -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- you brought in clubs, you brought 20 in steel pipes, and you brought in sticks. 21 Do I have that correct? 22 A: Yes, it is. 23 Q: So this situation was different for 24 you and your fellow occupiers than the situation at the 25 barracks?
1801 A: I suppose, but we did always have 2 clubs in our cars. People did have a lot of clubs in 3 their cars all the time. Like, even before this 4 Ipperwash thing happened. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: People always ride around with -- bats 7 and stuff in their cars just in case something ever 8 happened. Because there were incidences where there were 9 redneck people come around and try and jump on people 10 that were protesting in the Park -- or not in the Park, 11 but in the Ipperwash Military Base, so people had taken 12 measures to defend themselves against that. 13 Q: All right. So, I gather then, you 14 were one (1) of these people who kept a stick or a club 15 in your trunk? 16 A: Oh, yeah. 17 Q: All right. And you knew of others who 18 did the same thing. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And the purpose of having those there 21 was in case you ran into, as you've characterized them, a 22 redneck person who was being offensive. 23 A: Oh, yeah. 24 Q: All right. 25 Q: Because there was, like, not just a
1811 redneck person, there was usually a group of them that 2 come down. 3 Q: And -- and I trust, sir, you're 4 referring to people within the community. 5 A: Pardon? 6 Q: Are you referring to people within the 7 local community? 8 A: I'd say within -- somewheres around 9 here anyways. They weren't -- they weren't native 10 people, anyways. 11 Q: Right. Okay. And the redneck people, 12 as you're referring to, they weren't OPP officers, to 13 your knowledge, either, were they? 14 A: No, they weren't wearing no OPP 15 clothes or nothing. 16 Q: Right. Okay. But the reality is that 17 for whatever reason, when you and your fellow occupiers 18 moved into the Park on the evening of September the 4th, 19 you brought with you a collection of bats, steel pipes, 20 sticks, and stones, right? 21 A: I don't know if we brought anything 22 with us. We just kind of picked everything up off -- 23 whatever we had. We usually -- usually we had bats and 24 stuff in our cars. 25 Q: Okay.
1821 A: So we would have -- I don't know -- 2 would have brought them with us, I guess. 3 Q: Okay. All right. Now, you talked 4 about your collective concern that the OPP would try to 5 remove you from the Park and -- and that evidence is very 6 clear to me. 7 And as you've already alluded to, I trust 8 that late on the evening of September the 4th an officer 9 of the OPP by the name of Vince George approached the 10 group with what appeared to be a piece of paper. 11 Do you recall that? 12 A: Yes, I do. 13 Q: And did you understand that piece of 14 paper to be, in effect, a trespass notice? 15 A: I don't know. Maybe. Yeah, 16 probably. 17 Q: Okay. It was pretty clear, I'm going 18 to suggest, that Officer Vince George was there to serve 19 that notice upon the occupiers; correct? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: He wasn't coming down to help, I know 23 that. 24 Q: I'm sorry I can't hear you? 25 A: He wasn't coming down to offer any
1831 support. 2 Q: Okay. That's fair. That's fair. 3 And it's also fair to say that none of the occupiers 4 accepted the piece of paper; correct? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: All right. And we know that 7 ultimately later on that evening that all of the OPP 8 officers as far as you could tell left the Park property? 9 A: Yes, they did. 10 Q: Right? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 13 you, sir, that at no time during the following day on 14 Tuesday, September the 5th did you see an OPP officer in 15 that Park? 16 A: In the Park on the 5th? 17 Q: Right. 18 A: I wouldn't -- I never seen one in 19 there. 20 Q: Good. And I'm going to suggest to 21 you that at no time during the evening or night of 22 September 5th did you see an officer in the Park? 23 A: In the Park, no. I never seen one -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- in the Park.
1841 Q: Good. Indeed, you've already told us 2 about a confrontation that took place during the evening 3 of September the 5th between a number of occupiers and a 4 number of OPP officers and I'm going to call that the 5 "picnic table confrontation"; all right? 6 A: All right. 7 Q: Okay. And it's quite clear, sir, 8 that throughout that exchange, the OPP officers did not 9 cross into the Park across the fence that separates the 10 Park area from the Parking lot? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Right. So at no time, sir, did they 13 come across that fence line; right? 14 A: I heard that they did come across 15 that fence line sometime in that day on it but I never 16 seen them. 17 Q: I'm sorry, I can't hear you? 18 A: I never seen them myself but I had 19 heard that they had come across that fence line. 20 Q: Well, we may hear that from other 21 witnesses but I'm asking you what you saw or heard and 22 you'd agree with me that at no point on the 5th did you 23 see an OPP officer in the Park? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Thank you. And, indeed, as you've
1851 already told us, during the picnic table confrontation on 2 the evening of the 5th, the police, at some point, were 3 telling you to go back into the Park? 4 I'm talking about at the first portion of 5 the confrontation. 6 A: Yes, they did. 7 Q: Right. So they were telling you to 8 go back into the Park; we have that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And I'm going to suggest 11 to you that at no time on September the 6th during the 12 day did you see an OPP officer in the Park? 13 A: Not on the actual ground but there 14 was one flying around in a helicopter. 15 Q: I understand that. We won't discuss 16 who has -- has the right in the air for the moment, 17 although it's an interesting issue. But I'm talking 18 about actually on the Park land? 19 A: On the Park land, no. 20 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 21 even into the evening right up until the time when you 22 learned that Dudley George had shot -- was shot, excuse 23 me, at no point did you see an OPP officer cross that 24 Park fence line and come into the Park? 25 A: No, I never.
1861 Q: Thank you. And I'm also going to 2 suggest to you, sir, that from what you could see, and I 3 appreciate that you didn't see a lot -- frankly, even any 4 of the confrontation with the police on the evening of 5 the 6th, but from what you could see, I'm going to 6 suggest to you that the exchange or altercation appeared 7 to have taken place in that sandy Parking lot, which is 8 west of the fence line to the Park. 9 A: Yes, it did. 10 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you. Mr. 11 Commissioner, it's 2:20. Is this an appropriate time for 12 the afternoon recess? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, if 14 you're going to be a bit longer. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I will be and 16 I'm moving into a new area, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a good 18 time. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will now 23 recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 2:20 p.m.
1871 --- Upon resuming at 2:33 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed. 5 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you Mr. 6 Commissioner. Good afternoon again, Mr. Marlin -- or 7 Simon, excuse me. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 10 Q: As you have already told us, you and 11 other members of your community first moved onto the army 12 base -- or what's formerly known as the army base -- in 13 May of 1993 and you restricted yourselves to the area 14 proximate to Highway 21 near the various firing ranges. 15 Would that be a fair way of -- of 16 describing the area that you occupied? 17 A: Yes, I guess it would, yes. 18 Q: And, indeed, you and your fellow 19 occupiers did not move into the barracks area for just 20 over two (2) years, correct? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And then, as we've heard, you moved 23 into the barracks area -- or the built-up area, as it's 24 sometimes referred to -- on July 29th, 1995, correct? 25 A: Correct.
1881 Q: And then I'm going to suggest that you 2 and your fellow occupiers moved a third time into the 3 area that is sometimes described as Ipperwash Provincial 4 Park on September 4th, 1995, correct? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: All right. So, we've had three (3) 7 movements. The first movement is May of 1993, correct? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: Second movement is July of 1995, 10 correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And third movement, as we've heard, is 13 September 4th 1995, correct? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: And fair to say -- and I'm not saying 16 it in any way as a criticism so I don't want you to take 17 it that way -- but as you and your fellow occupiers move, 18 you are reclaiming and bringing back into your 19 possession, an increasingly larger piece of land? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I don't understand the question. 24 What is the question? 25 Q: Not a problem. Initially, when you
1891 moved into the military base property, you confined 2 yourself to a portion of the base, correct? 3 A: Not really confined ourself. I was 4 just -- we -- I don't know, we weren't taking over the 5 whole base. We let them use the built-up area. 6 Q: Exactly, that's my point. You 7 confined yourself -- yourselves to the non built-up area, 8 correct? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And then in July of 1995 you pushed 11 the boundary a bit further and you took over the built-up 12 area, correct? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: So, in affect as of July of 1995 you 15 were occupying a larger piece of land than you were in 16 May or June of 1993? 17 A: Sure. 18 Q: Okay. And in September of 1995 when 19 you moved onto the Ipperwash Park property, you then 20 occupied an even larger area of land, right? 21 A: Sure. 22 Q: Okay, good. And as you've already 23 told us, you and your fellow occupiers and -- and maybe I 24 should be clear on this, you told us that a number of 25 occupiers of Stony Pointers had advised Park authorities
1901 and the police that you were going to go into the Park 2 and reclaim it, correct? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Were you one of those people? 5 A: I imagine so, yes. Yes, I did. 6 Q: Okay. All right. Fair enough. So, 7 you had warned both the police and the Park authorities 8 of your intent to move into the Park in advance of doing 9 that, correct? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: All right. And good to your word, 12 you actually did move into the Park? 13 A: Yes we did. 14 Q: Right. We heard from your mother, 15 Marcia Simon, that -- and if memory serves correctly, I 16 think it was on the September 6th but it may have been 17 the 5th. 18 But on of those two (2) days she spoke 19 with a woman whom I took to be a fellow Stony Pointer, 20 and the two (2) of them had a discussion about the 21 prudence or the appropriateness of Stony Pointers moving 22 even beyond the boundaries of the Park to reclaim other 23 territory, okay? I -- I just want to give you a -- a 24 summary of what your mother has told us already. 25 A: Okay.
1911 Q: Okay. Were you -- first of all, were 2 you aware of any discussions amongst the Stony Pointers 3 that were directed towards either the possibility or the 4 probability of moving further still, in other words 5 beyond the traditional Park boundary? 6 A: No, I don't know of any discussions. 7 Q: You weren't aware of any of those 8 discussions? 9 A: No. I know some people would like 10 say stuff like that. Well if they want to get real 11 finicky about us taking over the Park, we should just 12 take over some more and then they'll worry about that and 13 we don't worry about the Park. 14 Q: You're going to have to forgive me. 15 I know it's because I'm tired, I'm having trouble hearing 16 you a little bit, Mr. -- Mr. Simon. 17 Could you just repeat that, please? 18 A: Just some people thought, I don't 19 know, just people would just like off the top of their 20 heads would say, oh yeah, we can take over your house 21 too. There's like people coming down, like cottagers and 22 stuff that were always walking by. 23 Q: Okay. And by the cottagers, are we 24 referring to the cottages that as far as you were aware, 25 were these people referencing the cottagers who lived
1921 along East Parkway Drive or somewhere else? 2 A: I'm not sure. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Like there are -- there is like 5 another property line that would go across -- place down 6 at the other end towards Port Franks. They could've been 7 talking about those ones. 8 Q: Good. Because I was actually going 9 to mention that and ask you whether you knew whether the 10 cottagers that were being referred to are the people that 11 live out off, is it Outer Drive; is that the name of the 12 street? 13 A: Outer Drive kind of goes into Port 14 Franks and then there's another like a little subdivision 15 that comes in. It's not really off of Outer Drive. 16 Q: Okay. It -- it might assist My 17 Friend. Ms. Vella, has very kindly made the map reappear 18 on the screen. And this is the map that shows the 19 Ipperwash Military Reserve. And maybe you could assist 20 us, Mr. Simon, by pointing out to us all the area of 21 Outer Drive. I gather it's the eastern exit. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: The eastern boundary of what's 24 described on the map as Ipperwash Military Reserve? 25 A: The eastern boundary and then it
1931 comes -- well, it goes along this side running, kind of, 2 north -- 3 Q: Okay. You -- 4 A: -- west. And then it veers of out in 5 towards Port Franks over here. 6 Q: And Port -- 7 A: There's in between a couple of -- 8 there's a pond on the one (1) side and then there's a 9 lake over on this side. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And it, kind of, goes in between. 12 Then there's roads that go off that road -- off of that 13 road that end up coming back into here and then there's a 14 fence line right along here. And then there's cottages 15 up in here. 16 Q: All right. I'm going to interrupt 17 you, sir, just so that we can protect the record because 18 I have to try and describe what you've just pointed out 19 to us. 20 You're referring to an area that is close 21 to Lake Huron towards the north of the map and the area 22 runs east from Outer Drive, as you've just described to 23 us; is that correct? 24 A: East from Outer Drive? 25 Q: Yes.
1941 A: I don't -- I'm not sure. I'd say -- 2 like, Outer Drive ends right about here -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And then this area is still a bit 5 north -- north more. And it's on a -- 6 Q: North of -- 7 A: -- western sort of -- where Outer 8 Drive would be. 9 Q: I see. All right. So, you're 10 pointing to cottage properties that if -- if Outer Drive 11 continued right to the lake -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- these cottage properties would be 14 just west of that point and just at that point; is that 15 correct? 16 A: Yeah. Just west of it. Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. And so, what you are speaking 18 of is -- is of some talk of potentially pushing the 19 boundary a little bit further into that area; is that 20 correct? 21 A: Well, I wouldn't know but that would 22 be, like, another probable movement, I guess -- or a 23 possible movement. 24 Q: Okay. And, again, sir, I'm just 25 wanting to ask what you heard people talking about, okay?
1951 A: What I heard people? Well, they were 2 just, kind of, wondering how these cottages over in this 3 part of the -- part of the base or what would seem to be 4 part of the base, how they got to be there. 5 Q: Okay. And, again, you're referring 6 to, essentially, the northeast corner down by the -- by 7 Lake Huron? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. All right. We know, sir, that 10 on the evening of September 5th you, and some other 11 occupiers, moved out of the Park into the Parking lot 12 area that is beside the Park, correct? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And we know that a number of picnic 15 tables were moved into that area, correct? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And we know that a bonfire was set in 18 that area, correct? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: If I were to suggest to you, sir, 21 that -- that one of the reasons that some of the 22 occupiers moved into the area and tables were moved into 23 the area and a fire was set in the area was because you, 24 and I say this collectively, there was a shared belief 25 that that Parking lot property ought to also belong to
1961 you; is that fair? 2 A: I don't know. I guess. I don't know 3 -- not sure what was the rational thinking for the Park - 4 - or the Parking lot area but, yeah, I guess. 5 Q: Okay. Thank you. I want to focus if 6 I can now on the events of the evening of September 6th. 7 And you've already told us that, as a 8 result of listening to the scanner, you learned of an 9 incident that involved Gerald George; is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And, as you've already told us, you 12 were not a witness to any incident involving Gerald 13 George that night, correct? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: Okay. But what you did hear, and I'm 16 interested in knowing what you heard, all right, what you 17 did hear over the scanner is that there was some type of 18 an incident, correct? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And it was an incident that involved 21 Mr. George and a number of your fellow occupiers; is that 22 correct? 23 A: I believe they said it was between 24 Mr. George and another Mr. George. 25 Q: All right. I don't imagine that
1971 there's any mystery to this; it was between Gerald George 2 and Stewart Bradley George? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. Fair enough. And did you 5 learn as you were listening to the scanner that there was 6 some type of a physical altercation between the two (2) 7 men? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. I anticipate that we're 10 going to hear that -- that Stewart Bradley George was a 11 Stony Pointer and continues to be a Stony Pointer, right? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. Gerald George did not 14 live over at Stony Point, correct? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: He lived at Kettle Point? 17 A: Yes, he did. 18 Q: He was a member of the Band Council, 19 correct? 20 A: Yes, he was. 21 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 22 this incident that you heard about on the scanner was the 23 first time over the course of the two (2) days from the - 24 - three (3) days I suppose, from the evening of the 4th 25 to the evening of the 6th, that you heard about any
1981 confrontation between one (1) of the occupiers and a 2 fellow First Nation's person, would that be fair? 3 A: I wouldn't really call him a fellow 4 First Nation's person. He was quite vocal in a newspaper 5 about calling people from there down. 6 Q: All right. It -- it may -- I may 7 have been using my words somewhat carelessly. He's an 8 aboriginal individual? 9 A: Yes, he is. 10 Q: And he also was not a police officer 11 at the time? 12 A: No. No he's not. 13 Q: Okay. Fair to say that this was the 14 first confrontation you had heard about between one of 15 the occupiers and somebody who was not an OPP officer? 16 A: Sure, yeah. 17 Q: Okay, thank you. And in conjunction 18 with this incident which as you've told us is the first 19 one you've learned of -- it's a little bit different from 20 the others. You hear over the radio that a T.R.U. team 21 is being sent in. 22 Do I have that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now it's been an awfully long time 25 ago, can you tell us, with any greater degree of
1991 specificity, what it was you heard in relation to the 2 T.R.U. coming in? 3 A: What it is I heard? I heard they've 4 -- like what I said earlier, that they have a go for the 5 T.R.U. team and soft T.R.U. go, you have a go. And they 6 came back on the radio and said which one is that? 7 And then he described what vehicles they 8 were in, suburban, black suburban, the hard T.R.U. team's 9 in the black suburban and the soft T.R.U. team's in the 10 white suburban and soft T.R.U. is go. 11 Q: And did you, sir, hear a specific 12 direction that the T.R.U. team were to go into the Park? 13 Or did you just hear that they were to go in or go 14 somewhere? 15 A: Go somewhere. 16 Q: All right. Thank you. So -- 17 A: And about, I'd say a couple of 18 minutes later, there was a vehicle pulled up across the 19 road. 20 Q: Okay. All right. So you -- what you 21 understood when you heard things over the scanner, was 22 that there was to be movement by a T.R.U. team? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Correct? 25 A: Correct.
2001 Q: And you understood that this movement 2 somehow related to this incident involving Gerald George 3 which is we've already talked about was different or new 4 from the other incidents that had occurred in the 5 previous two and a half (2 1/2) days, correct? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: You're nodding affirmatively? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Thank you. Good. All right. Now, I 10 understand and I want you to help me out here and if we 11 could please, could we have the schematic for the Park 12 put back up on the screen? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: There we go. Thank you, Mr. Millar. 17 All right. Mr. Simon, we have in front of us a schematic 18 of the Park. And I understand, sir, that there's a small 19 building that is referred to as a kiosk in the Park near 20 the turnstile area. 21 Do I have that correct? 22 A: It wouldn't be like right in the 23 right exact area but I do believe the kiosk they're 24 talking about is the permit office right here. 25 Q: All right. So you're pointing with
2011 the laser pointer to an area that's identified on the 2 schematic as "permit office"? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Can you tell us, sir, how big a 5 building is the permit office? 6 A: How big, I'd say probably about 10 7 feet by 15 feet maybe. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: It's just a small little -- 10 Q: So it's a relatively small -- it's 11 like a hut? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. And the hut, sir, it has 14 windows? 15 A: Yes, it does. 16 Q: And, sir -- and again you may not be 17 able to recall one way or the other, but I'll ask you in 18 any event: Were there window coverings on the windows? 19 A: Was there window coverings on the 20 windows? 21 Q: Like a blind? 22 A: I don't think so. 23 Q: There may be and you just don't 24 recall? 25 A: Could be.
2021 Q: Okay. 2 A: There could have been. 3 Q: And, sir, were any of either yourself 4 or any of your fellow occupiers, did they go into that 5 kiosk? 6 A: I don't recall. 7 Q: You don't recall? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Have you -- 10 A: I never -- I never myself. 11 Q: All right. And you can't recall one 12 way or another whether you saw anybody go in there? 13 A: Can't recall. 14 Q: All right. If one were to stand in 15 that kiosk or the permit office, what direction could one 16 look out and see in? 17 A: What direction could he look out and 18 see? I'm not sure. I'd say he'd be able to look down 19 the roadway here. 20 Q: When you say "look down the 21 roadway" -- 22 A: Like this driveway that goes to the 23 entrance of the Park. 24 Q: All right. And if that sight line 25 continued, I'm going to suggest that means that one could
2031 look down, some way towards East Parkway Drive. 2 Would that be fair? 3 A: No. Because there's -- East Parkway 4 Drive was way up over here and there's like a big sand 5 dune and a bunch of trees around here. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And, no, you wouldn't be able to look 8 down there. 9 Q: All right. So one would not have a 10 sight line down East Parkway Drive? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Thank you. 13 A: There's a store in the way and 14 there's all kinds of other things. 15 Q: Okay. You've told us, sir, that you 16 filled up the school bus with gas. Do I -- did I have 17 that correct? 18 A: Yes, you do. 19 Q: And I wasn't sure about this because 20 you had spoken earlier about the presence of a large fuel 21 tank near the maintenance shed but I then got the 22 impression that you filled up the bus back at the 23 barracks. 24 Can you tell us where you filled up the 25 bus?
2041 A: I filled up the bus at the 2 maintenance shed in here. 3 Q: At the maintenance shed? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And is it fair to say, 6 sir, that you moved the bus from the base area to the 7 Park area in the evening of September 6th? 8 A: No. I'd say it would be the 9 afternoon. 10 Q: The afternoon? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. Late afternoon? 13 A: Could have been. I'd say mid- 14 afternoon. 15 Q: Okay. We also heard, sir, through 16 your evidence earlier about a dump truck and I believe 17 you said it belonged to your Uncle Glenn; is that 18 correct? 19 A: My Uncle Glenn was driving it. 20 Q: I'm sorry, that's -- 21 A: And I -- I don't -- I think it 22 belonged to another one of my uncles. 23 Q: Fair enough. All right. At the time 24 that you saw the dump truck back on the army base it was 25 being driven by your Uncle Glenn?
2051 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you went over to see your Uncle 3 Glenn after you had your concerns raised when you heard 4 what was going on on the scanner; is that correct? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And that's into the evening of 7 September 6th; correct? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And would it be fair to say, sir, 10 that that dump truck, like the bus, made its way over 11 into the Park? 12 A: Made its way over to the Park? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Yes, it did. 15 Q: Thank you. 16 A: Eventually. 17 Q: Thank you. And it made its way over 18 in the evening of September the 6th. Correct? 19 A: It's driving all around on the evening 20 of September the 6th. 21 Q: Okay. When you say driving all 22 around, driving all around -- 23 A: Driving all around the Park, the 24 built-up area - 25 Q: It was going back and forth.
2061 A: Yeah. 2 Q: All right. So if the police were 3 looking into the Park property from, for example, East 4 Parkway Drive, in the evening of September the 6th they 5 would notice that the bus was there. Correct? 6 A: Yes, they would. 7 Q: And they would notice that at least, 8 from time to time, this dump truck was now in the Park. 9 Correct? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And would it be fair to say that that 12 dump truck had not been in the Park prior to the evening 13 of the 6th? 14 A: I think it was there. 15 Q: When. 16 A: Like, during -- pretty much during the 17 whole takeover. Like, it was -- it was there for the 18 whole thing, I think. 19 Q: Going back and forth. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Just cruising around. 23 Q: And as you've already told us, sir, 24 when you heard what caused you concern over the radio, 25 you went to the barracks area to try and find people.
2071 Correct? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And in effect, I'm going to suggest to 4 you, sir, you were spreading the word that we needed to 5 move people into the Park for help. Correct? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And is it fair to say, sir, that 8 people responded to your call for help and others did 9 move into the Park? 10 A: Not a whole lot, just maybe a few. 11 Q: But there was some movement of people 12 into the Park? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. Thank you. The people who 15 moved into the Park, sir, they were largely male adults? 16 A: Yes, they were. 17 Q: Okay. Fair to say, sir, that as part 18 of what you were doing when you were down in the 19 barracks, alerting people to your concerns, you also 20 suggested that it might be wise for the women and 21 children to leave because you were concerned that there 22 may be trouble that would put them at risk? 23 A: Yeah, I would probably have told them, 24 if I seen some. 25 Q: And again, it's not something that I
2081 am critical of. It -- it makes sense in the 2 circumstances. Right? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Sorry, you have to answer verbally. 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: And is it fair to say that when you 7 were moving back and forth between the barracks area and 8 the Park trying to get people to move over to the -- to 9 the Park itself, these -- the -- the adult males -- you 10 actually saw some of the children and women leaving the 11 barracks area? 12 A: Yes, I do believe I did see some. 13 Q: Thank you. One (1) other point. As I 14 understood your evidence, when you go back up to the Park 15 and ultimately learn that Dudley George had been shot, 16 did I understand you to say that you had driven your 17 vehicle onto the sandy Parking lot? 18 A: The sandy Parking lot where the 19 altercation was going on? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: No, it wasn't. 22 Q: So you didn't actually make it across 23 the fence area into the sandy lot? 24 A: No. 25 Q: You stayed on the other side of the
2091 fence in the Park property? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. Do you recall -- and you may 4 not, sir -- but do you recall whether or not when you 5 were up there, that the fence in that area, so in the 6 area that borders the Park and the Parking lot, did you 7 notice that the fence appeared to have been pushed down? 8 It wasn't standing erect. Or the least, that there were 9 part -- portions of it that were pushed over. 10 A: No, I don't know. I think it looked 11 the same as it always did. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: It was kind of a raggedy old fence. 14 Q: It was a raggedy old fence. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. I want to finish off, sir, by 17 asking you a few questions about your locating the shell 18 casing on the evening of September the 7th. 19 The very early morning hours of September 20 7th, excuse me; all right? 21 A: Yes. I don't know, it would probably 22 be like real early morning hours, late -- late 6th. 23 Q: Sorry? 24 A: Late 6th. Late -- late hours -- 25 Q: Right.
2101 A: -- of the 6th and early morning of 2 the 7th. 3 Q: Okay. And you told us -- I wonder if 4 we could have the schematic put back up again please. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Thank you, very much. 9 You've already told us that in relation to 10 the schematic we have before us, and I apologize the 11 exhibit number escapes me. I think we're 61 -- 62. 12 Thank you, Mr. Millar. 13 You've identified the area with the 14 marking X1 as the location where you picked up a 15 cartridge case; correct? 16 A: Yeah, it's the approximate area. 17 Q: All right. So just so that we're 18 clear, you located it on the south side of East Parkway 19 Drive as it's starting to turn and continue southbound 20 into Army Camp Road; is that correct? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: So you did not locate it on the north 23 side of East Parkway Drive? 24 A: It was, like, right around -- there 25 was shell casings all around here. It could have been
2111 one from right there. 2 Q: Well, this is -- this is -- 3 A: It was one -- but I was pretty sure I 4 grabbed a shell casing from right around this area. 5 Q: Okay. This is what I -- I was 6 curious about because I had understood from some of the 7 material that I had read that the cartridge casing that 8 you had picked up was from the north side of East Parkway 9 near a garbage bin of some sort. 10 Does that refresh your recollection at 11 all? 12 A: I don't know, I could be mistaken. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But there was shells over here and 15 there was shells over here. 16 Q: All right. And, again, I need to put 17 what you've just done into words. You've told us that 18 there was shells on the north side of East Parkway Drive 19 just to the west of the driveway that goes into a house 20 and I can't possibly read from here what that number is. 21 I know it begins with a 6. 22 In any event, I think we all know what 23 we're talking about. It seems to be the only driveway 24 that is depicted on the schematic. 25 A: There's another driveway right over
2121 here. 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you very 3 much, Ms. Vella. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's the driveway to 5 number 6842. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 8 Q: Thank you very much. It's driveway 9 6842. And I believe that we've heard, sir, that there 10 was a garbage bin just west of that driveway on the north 11 side of East Parkway Drive. 12 Does that assist you in refreshing your 13 recollection as to where you found that cartridge case? 14 A: Does it assist me, no, not really. 15 Well... 16 Q: But you may be mistaken as to where 17 you picked it up? 18 A: I could be. 19 Q: That's fair. All right. And as 20 you've already quite fairly told us, there were a number 21 of cartridge casings found on the north side of East 22 Parkway Drive just east of the driveway that I've just 23 described; correct? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Were they also found at the base of
2131 that driveway? 2 A: At the base, like in here? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Yes, I do believe there was. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Here and here. 7 Q: Can you assist us at all, Mr. Simon, 8 as to how many people were with you when you were out on 9 the road and came across cartridge cases. 10 And I'm not saying necessarily who was 11 standing beside you, I'm just wanting to get a sense of 12 how many people were in the area where the shooting had 13 taken place? 14 A: Pretty much everybody was down there 15 then. I'd say twenty-five (25), maybe thirty (30). 16 Q: Twenty-five (25) to thirty (30) 17 people; okay, thank you. And I anticipate that we'll 18 hear that a number of shell casings or cartridges were 19 turned over to the SIU which were purportedly found the 20 same night that you found your cartridge. All right? 21 You're nodding affirmatively? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And it's fair to say I gather, 24 because you've already alluded to this, that there were 25 fellow Stony Pointers who are picking up cartridges,
2141 correct? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Can you give us a sense based upon 4 what you saw, how many cartridges in total were picked 5 up? 6 A: I don't -- I'm not sure. Lots, 7 handfuls and handfuls. 8 Q: Handfuls and handfuls. 9 A: Handfuls I do believe. There was 10 handfuls of shells. 11 Q: Handfuls of shells? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: So maybe even more than two (2) 14 handfuls of shells? 15 A: It could have been, yeah. 16 Q: Okay. A moment's indulgence, Mr. 17 Commissioner, please. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Sir, was Isaac Dox -- is it Doxtater 22 or Doxtater? I don't want to mispronounce it. 23 A: Doxtater. 24 Q: Doxtater. Thank you. Was Isaac 25 Doxtater one of the people out on the roadway picking up
2151 cartridges? 2 A: Yes, I do believe so. 3 Q: Thank you. And was Roderick or Judas 4 George one of the people picking up the cartridges that 5 night? 6 A: I believe so. 7 Q: Thank you. And was a man by the name 8 of -- and again you'll have to help me with the 9 pronunciation, is it Ben Pouget or Pouget? 10 A: Ben Pouget? 11 Q: Pouget? P-O-U-G-E-T? Okay, you're 12 nodding affirmatively. 13 A: Yes, sorry. That's how you say it, I 14 don't know. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you. Was he one of the 16 people out in the roadway picking up cartridges, to the 17 best of your recollection? 18 A: I don't know. I don't remember. 19 Q: Okay. Did you come to learn, sir, 20 that a number of cartridges, or cartridge cases that were 21 located early in the morning of September 7th, 1995 were 22 turned over to the SIU towards the end of October 1995? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Did you know in advance that 25 the SIU -- and when I say "in advance," prior to October
2161 24th, 1995, that's actually the date I'm going to suggest 2 that they were turned over. I don't know whether you 3 know that that was the specific date or not. 4 A: No, I don't know. 5 Q: Fair enough. Did you know after 6 September 7th, 1995 that the SIU were interested in 7 obtaining any type of cartridge case evidence that had 8 been found at the scene? 9 A: Not right on September 7th but 10 afterwards I know. 11 Q: Fair enough. You did come to learn 12 that? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And I trust that you came to learn 15 that prior to the end of October 1995? 16 A: No, I don't think so. 17 Q: You didn't -- you didn't know about 18 it before the end of October 1995? 19 A: No. I think I handed my shell over 20 in August '96. 21 Q: Exactly. And one of the things that 22 I was going to ask you, sir: Why did you wait to hand it 23 over? And again, it's not a criticism, I'm just curious 24 why you waited so long to hand over your cartridge shell? 25 A: I don't know. I just -- I didn't
2171 really know that the SIU guy was around and then by the 2 time I did find out, he was gone. 3 Q: You didn't know he was around? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Did nobody who handed over cartridge 6 shells at the end of October 1995 tell you that they'd 7 handed over cartridge shells to the SIU? 8 A: Probably afterwards, yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And you're not suggesting that 10 they didn't tell you until August of 1996? 11 A: Well... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I'm not saying it was that late but, 16 yeah, I did know that they were looking for them after a 17 while. 18 Q: Okay. How many -- how many cartridge 19 shells did you pocket on the night of September 7th, 1995 20 -- or excuse me, in the early morning hours of September 21 7th? 22 A: I don't know, one (1). 23 Q: Just one (1). 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: You're sure about that? You have to
2181 give me a verbal answer. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay, fair enough. 4 A: I just pocketed one (1). 5 Q: All right. Now, I also anticipate, 6 sir, that we're going to hear some evidence that some 7 other cartridge cases were located in August of 1996, 8 near the area that is described as a memorial to Dudley 9 George. 10 Do you have any knowledge of those 11 discoveries? 12 A: Do I have any knowledge? No, I don't. 13 Q: You weren't there when that occurred? 14 A: I think I pulled up and gave them the 15 -- the one (1) shell whenever they were searching the 16 area around there -- the area -- the area you just 17 discussed. 18 Q: Okay. You're -- you've just pointed 19 with the laser pointer to an area close to what you've 20 described as X2 which was an area where you said you saw 21 some blood on the Parking lot, which is beside the Park. 22 Correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And is that -- 25 A: That's where the monument is, right
2191 around there. 2 Q: Thank you. You've anticipated my next 3 question was -- which was: Does X2 correspond with the 4 area that is now known as Dudley George's memorial? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: Okay. Good. So, are you telling us 7 that when you learned that new cartridge cases or -- not 8 new, excuse me, additional cartridge cases had been 9 located near Dudley George's memorial in August of 1996, 10 that's what prompted you to turn your cartridge over? 11 A: I heard that the SIU was down there 12 and he was looking for a few more cases -- they were 13 missing some more casings. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: And I had one (1) so I took it down 16 there. 17 Q: Okay. Mr. Simon, thank you for your 18 time. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's almost 20 3:15. I don't think you want to start now do you, Ms. 21 Jones? 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, if I 23 could start -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 25 can't hear you.
2201 MS. KAREN JONES: My preference would be 2 to start next day. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, thank 4 you. We had a long day yesterday. I don't think anybody 5 would complain if we adjourned fifteen (15) minutes 6 earlier than we had originally planned, so I think we're 7 going to call it a day and reconvene not next week but 8 the week after, the day after Thanksgiving, which I think 9 is October the 12th, I think that's our next day, at 10 10:30 in the morning. 11 Now, I expect to be releasing my decision 12 on that day concerning the Motion that we heard here 13 yesterday and the remainder of that day, we will spend 14 completing, hopefully, the evidence, the testimony of Mr. 15 Simon. The next days, October 13th and 14th, that is the 16 Wednesday and the Thursday of that week. We've already 17 indicated we're not going to sit on the Friday of that 18 week. 19 The Commission will be conducting a 20 different sort of proceeding that the conventional 21 hearings we've conducted thus far. The Commission will 22 convene an Indigenous Knowledge Forum with the assistance 23 of respected elders and experts in the field of 24 indigenous and traditional knowledge. Now, some of you 25 know all about this already, I know.
2211 The purpose of these two (2) days of 2 proceedings is primarily educational. It's to educate 3 members of the Commission, participants in these 4 proceedings, including Counsel, about the traditions 5 practised and beliefs held by aboriginal people. 6 The forum is intended to supplement and 7 provide a context for the evidence we've heard and will 8 hear and to ensure that all participants in this Inquiry 9 have some exposure to a worldview that is different in 10 many respects to that held by non-aboriginal Canadians. 11 And this will, in my view, assist the 12 Commission and the Parties in reaching as an accurate and 13 well-informed understanding as possible of the events of 14 1995 and the circumstances surrounding those events. 15 It's my view that only through greater 16 understanding of our respective worldviews that any form 17 of healing can occur between the aboriginal and the non- 18 aboriginal communities. 19 I will not be making any findings 20 concerning the information we will be hearing at this 21 forum. I, like all the other participants in the 22 Inquiry, will be there to listen and to learn. 23 The protocol of the forum itself will be 24 conducted, to a large extent, in accordance with the 25 traditions and beliefs we will be there to learn about.
2221 We will be relying on the Elders and experts to guide us 2 through the two (2) days. 3 The forum will be open to all participants 4 in this Inquiry and to the public. It's been tentatively 5 scheduled to be held in a hall at the Forest Golf and 6 Country Club, just down the road from here. 7 Commission Counsel have indicated that 8 further documentation concerning the protocol, objectives 9 and particulars of this Indigenous Knowledge Forum will 10 be circulated to the parties next week and will be posted 11 on our website. 12 I respectfully urge all parties to the 13 Inquiry, including all counsel for the parties, to make 14 every effort to attend this two-day forum in order that 15 we may move forward with the work of this Commission with 16 greater common understanding and knowledge. 17 I look forward to seeing everybody on 18 Tuesday, after Thanksgiving. Have a Happy Thanksgiving. 19 See you all them. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This public Inquiry is 21 adjourned until Tuesday, October 12th at 10:30 a.m. 22 23 --- Upon adjourning at 3:18 p.m. 24 25
2231 2 Certified Correct, 3 4 5 6 ____________________ 7 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25