11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 September 28th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Orkin ) (Np) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 William Hourigan ) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 4 5 MARCIA FLORA GEORGE SIMON, Resumed 6 Continued Cross-Examination 7 by Ms. Karen Jones 8 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 38 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 47 10 11 MARLIN DOUGLAS SIMON, JR., Sworn 12 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 98 13 14 15 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 218 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-50 The House of Commons Standing 4 Committee on Aboriginal Affairs 5 Third Report Volume 6 1010458. 53 6 7 P-51 The Case of the Stony Point 8 Reserve Number 43: A Brief of 9 Fact and Argument 53 10 11 P-52 Document entitled Stoney 12 Point First Nations No. 43 13 Declaration of Independence 61 14 15 P-53 Press release dated July 6th, 16 1995, and letter to Ms. Marcia 17 Simon from the Ontario 18 Provincial Police dated June 19 15th, 1995 71 20 21 P-54 London Free Press article 22 dated July 7th, 1995. Entitled 23 "Stony Point Community irked 24 by Military presence" 71 25
71 2 LIST OF EXHIBITS (Cont'd) 3 Exhibit Number Description Page No. 4 P-55 Sarnia Observer Article dated 5 Monday August 23rd, 1993 6 entitled "Native Says Military 7 Police Assaulted Him at Camp" 84 8 P-56 Sarnia Observer Article dated 9 August 27th, 1993 entitled: 10 "Natives Charge Harassment 11 Rising at Camp Ipperwash". 85 12 P-57 Letter to Mr. Anthony O'Brian 13 George dated August 24, 1994 14 from Ronald A. Irwin. 90 15 P-58 Photograph of Melva George. 93 16 P-59 Presentation in recognition 17 of Melva George's significant 18 contribution to a compatriot's 19 community and to Canada." 94 20 P-60 Map of the Ipperwash Military 21 Reserve & Ipperwash Provincial 22 Park as marked up by Witness 23 Marlin Simon 104 24 25
81 --- Upon Commencing at 10:04 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. Ms. Jones I think is continuing this 10 morning. 11 12 MARCIA FLORA GEORGE SIMON, Resumed: 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 morning, Ms. Jones. Good morning. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Good morning, Mr. 17 Commissioner. 18 19 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES. 20 Q: Good morning, Ms. Simon. 21 A: Good morning. 22 Q: I think we had ended up yesterday at 23 the -- in the morning of September 7th and you told us in 24 your evidence earlier that later on you had some pictures 25 taken. And can you help us understand when the pictures
91 were taken? 2 A: It was just at some point later in 3 the day. I -- I don't know the exact time. 4 Q: Okay. On September the 7th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And who took the pictures? 7 A: My older brother Graham. 8 Q: Okay. And I take it from your 9 evidence that the pictures were taken to document in your 10 view, injuries that you had occasioned during the night. 11 Is that right? 12 A: From what happened at Northville. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: And that would be -- it may have been 17 the previous night. 18 Q: I'm sorry, it may have been the 19 previous night? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: What previous night? 22 A: Before midnight. This -- this I had 23 spent -- 24 Q: Oh, you're trying to be accurate 25 about when the incident in Northville happened, is that
101 what you're saying? 2 Ms. Simon, I'm -- I didn't mean to 3 interrupt you, I'm just trying to -- when you said the 4 previous night I was just a little confused. I take it 5 you're talking about what you say happened in 6 Northville -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- either on the night of September 9 6th or into the morning of September 7th? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: Okay. And I take it that you took, 12 as I said earlier, pictures to show everything that you 13 could on your person, on your body, is that right? 14 A: No. 15 Q: No? 16 A: No. Just the most visible where -- 17 other than my personal parts of my body. I wasn't about 18 to show anyone anything. Just the bruising on my arms, 19 that's the main thing that was taken. 20 Q: Okay. Okay. And we've been provided 21 with I believe seven (7) pictures by Commission counsel. 22 Were those all of the pictures that were taken? 23 A: I don't know. There may have been 24 more. I -- I didn't count them up. 25 Q: I'm sorry?
111 A: I didn't count them up. 2 Q: Okay. Did all of the pictures that 3 were taken, were all of those pictures provided to the 4 Commission? 5 A: I think so. 6 Q: Okay. And I take it in the pictures 7 you pointed out the area or areas that were of concern to 8 you on your body, is that right? 9 A: I recall the one where there -- the 10 largest bruise, that was clearly visible in the 11 photograph, yes. 12 Q: Okay. And I've looked at the 13 photographs and it appears to me when I look at the 14 photographs, that there is one (1) bruise on your right 15 upper arm. Is that right? Ms. Simon -- 16 A: I believe so. 17 Q: -- would it be of assistance to -- for 18 you to look at the pictures? I think they should be in 19 the Commission brief before you. 20 A: The first one, yes. 21 Q: Yes. Okay. And the second one? And, 22 Ms. Simon, one (1) of things that's -- okay, now we've 23 got a picture on the screen so we can all see it. So 24 this is a large photo of you in which you're holding a 25 calendar up against your arm, it looks like, and you're
121 showing a bruise on your upper right arm. Is that 2 correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay, and the next picture, again, is 5 you pointing to a bruise on your upper right arm on the 6 inside aspect of your arm. 7 A: I think it's the same bruise. 8 Q: Yes. And the next picture -- Mr. 9 Millar could we have the next picture? Okay, and that 10 again is you pointing to a bruise on your upper right arm 11 on the inner aspect of your arm? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And the next picture is you pointing 14 to a calendar. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the next picture. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Could we have the next picture, Mr. 21 Millar? Okay, so we've got two (2) pictures that are the 22 same. A different one? Okay. And again, that's you 23 holding a calendar up against your upper right arm. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And, Ms. Simon, when I looked at the
131 pictures, I didn't see in those pictures any indication 2 of any other bruising on your arms. Do you agree with 3 that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And I didn't see any indication of any 6 bruising or any marks on your wrists. Do you agree with 7 that? 8 A: No, it doesn't show in here. 9 Q: Okay, and there's no picture in which 10 you indicate any other areas of your body in which you 11 say there are any -- any -- there's any marks. 12 A: Not in these pictures, no. 13 Q: Okay, and are there any other 14 pictures? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And if I understood your evidence 21 earlier, Ms. Simon, it was that there was a period of 22 time when Carl George was Acting Chief. Is that correct? 23 A: What period are you referring to? 24 Q: I'm referring to the period before 25 which you issued your press release in which you said
141 Carl George is not -- is no longer Acting Chief. And I 2 believe you told us that was in 1995. 3 A: I believe the press release was dated 4 1995, yes. 5 Q: Okay. And if I understand your 6 evidence, it was after that time that decisions were 7 made, in essence, communally among the people who were at 8 the camp. Is that right? 9 A: To a large extent, yes. 10 Q: Okay. And I take it that after 11 September of 1995, you continued to live at the camp. 12 Is that right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I take you would then have been 15 one (1) of the people that was involved in the communal 16 decision making about what was going on in the camp. 17 Is that right? 18 A: Only over certain things. I -- I -- 19 we don't have large meetings to decide every little 20 detail of what goes on in there. 21 Q: Okay. What -- can you tell me 22 whether or not you would have been one (1) of the people 23 that was involved in decisions about who was living in 24 the camp? 25 A: No.
151 Q: Who was involved in those decisions? 2 A: The people themselves that know their 3 heritage and wanted to make a commitment to live there. 4 That was there own decisions not mine. 5 Q: Okay. If there was a concern about 6 people being in the camp that some residents thought 7 ought not be there, would you have been involved in 8 discussions about that? 9 A: No, no. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: It -- it's the peoples own business, 12 if they have family that are living with them. That's 13 not up to me to tell them that they can't have their 14 family with them. 15 Q: Okay. Were there people in the camp 16 that believed they had the right to decide who should 17 live in the camp and who shouldn't? 18 A: I don't know what they think. 19 Q: Okay. Did you hear any discussions-- 20 A: No, I didn't. 21 Q: -- by people to that extent? 22 A: No, I didn't. 23 Q: Okay. One (1) of the documents, Ms. 24 Simon, that's been put into evidence was Exhibit P-26 and 25 this is a document that is from the Sarnia Newspaper
161 dated Tuesday April 14th, 1998 and it's entitled "Native 2 Elders Ousted" 3 And what the -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, may the 5 witness be provided with a copy of the document, please? 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 11 Q: I take it, Ms. Simon, that you know 12 Rose Manning? 13 A: I know her, yes. I know to see her. 14 Q: I think you described, in your 15 evidence earlier, you described her as one (1) of the 16 Elders in the camp? 17 A: I did. Yeah. 18 Q: Yes, and I take it that you lived on 19 the camp and she was on the camp for a period of time? 20 A: She did, yes. 21 Q: And I take it that you know Nellie 22 Rogers? 23 A: Yes, I do. 24 Q: And I take it you would also describe 25 here as an Elder?
171 A: Both of them are older than I am and 2 they were referred to as the Elders and it really depends 3 on the sense in which you're using the word "Elder." 4 Q: Okay. How would you describe them? 5 A: They're seniors. 6 Q: Okay. And are they people that you 7 and 8 -- that you would have had discussions with about what 9 was going on in the camp? 10 A: At this time? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: They were already gone apparently at 13 this time. 14 Q: Okay. How about in the month or two 15 (2) or three (3) months before April 14th? Would you 16 have had discussions with them then? 17 A: I don't recall speaking with Nellie 18 for quite some time. She was only in there for a short 19 period of time. 20 Q: Mmm hmm. 21 A: To my recollection anyways. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Like I said people were always coming 24 and going. 25 Q: Okay.
181 A: And it was also the same with some of 2 the members of Rose Manning's family. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: So they came and went and were there 5 part of the time and also in their homes part of the 6 time. 7 Q: Right. But I take it that Rose 8 Manning was there from 1993? Is that correct? 9 A: Part of the time, yes. 10 Q: Right. And did you know Carolyn Heil 11 who is described in this article is a Franciscan Sister 12 from Wisconsin who has been teaching children for two (2) 13 years at Stony Point? Did you know her? 14 A: I knew her briefly. 15 Q: Okay. And according to this article 16 what Stony -- it says: 17 "Stony Point Elders Clifford George, 18 Rose Manning and Nellie Rogers said 19 Monday they've been harassed and 20 intimidating -- intimidated into 21 leaving the former camp Ipperwash by a 22 small band of younger Natives who think 23 they are in charge of the place." 24 Was that anything that you observed while 25 you were at the camp?
191 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 2 Mr. Ross is standing up. I'm not sure -- 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I think it would be 4 appropriate, Mr. Commissioner, that Counsel also advise 5 this witness that Clifford George refuted that statement. 6 Just to take it as a newspaper statement, 7 putting it to this witness when Counsel knows that it had 8 been refuted by another witness. I think it's just in 9 fairness the whole story should be put to this witness. 10 Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 12 Mr. Ross. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: Ms. Simon, I understand you were here 16 during the course of all or part of Clifford George's 17 evidence? 18 A: For part of it. I -- I am actually 19 supposed to be at work. 20 Q: Yes. And during his evidence, Mr. 21 George said that the comments that are attributed in this 22 paper to him, were not true and -- 23 A: He would know better than I. 24 Q: Sure. But what I'm -- the question 25 that I'm asking you is whether or not you saw any of
201 Clifford George or Rose Manning or Nellie Rogers being 2 harassed and intimidated by a small band of younger 3 natives -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- who thought they were in charge of 6 the park? 7 A: No, I didn't. 8 Q: And according to this article, they 9 say that at least two (2) other Elders and a number of 10 other people have also been forced out of the eight 11 hundred and ninety (890) hectare site. 12 Were you aware of people being forced off 13 of the camp? 14 A: I don't know if you could say forced 15 out. I'm aware that people were always coming and going 16 and it is very difficult living conditions. So I don't 17 know what it is they're referring to. 18 Q: Okay. And it says: 19 "The ousted Elders say the trouble 20 makers included both Stony Pointers who 21 are being paid by the Federal 22 Government to maintain the property and 23 Natives from other reserves who have no 24 business living there." 25 Were you aware of person or persons of
211 whom, for example, Rose Manning or Nellie Rogers, would 2 have felt had no reason to be there? 3 A: I'm aware that a number of people 4 questioned who was who. I'm also aware that our nation 5 had been dispersed in 1942 and they don't know who's who 6 in all of the different families, so I would, taking from 7 that, it -- there's probably questions that would be 8 raised when they don't know one another. 9 Q: Okay, and going on the next column, it 10 says: 11 "Manning said she and her granddaughter 12 were ordered out of her home one (1) 13 night last week around midnight by a 14 group of men that included a native 15 from Walpole Island and another from 16 the Oneida Reserve near London. "They 17 threatened us with guns and I had to 18 leave," she said." 19 Was that an incident that you were aware 20 of? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay, and according to this article, 23 Nellie Rogers said: 24 "I can't stay there. They're full of 25 hostility. They harassed me. It got
221 to the point I wouldn't trust leaving 2 my car there." 3 And they pulled the heater out of her 4 trailer. Were you aware of that? 5 A: No, I wasn't. 6 Q: Okay. And on the next column, it 7 says: 8 "Carolyn Heil, a Franciscan Sister from 9 Wisconsin, who has been teaching 10 children at Stony Point for two (2) 11 years, says she's been ordered not to 12 return to the property. 'I presume it 13 was a way of getting me out so violence 14 could happen,' she said. 'I was no 15 longer a witness. I was given five (5) 16 minutes to get out or they would stuff 17 me in a car and drive me out.'" 18 Were you aware of that? 19 A: No, I -- I didn't see that happen. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I Didn't know that it had happened. 22 Q: Okay. Were you aware of discussions 23 before then that Carolyn Heil should not stay on in the 24 camp? 25 A: I'm aware that there suspicions about
231 her reasons for being there. She just suddenly showed up 2 and apparently she had read an article about our plight 3 and wanted to come and help and had been teaching school 4 but, to my recollection, the school had been closed for 5 quite some time so it -- people were wondering what her 6 purpose was there then. 7 Q: Mmm hmm. And did people think she 8 should be there? 9 A: I don't know what they thought. 10 Q: Okay. Did you hear discussions among 11 people about their views about -- as to whether Carolyn 12 Heil should be there or not? 13 A: No, I didn't hear any discussions. I 14 -- I just know people were wondering. 15 Q: Okay. And how do you know that if you 16 didn't -- 17 A: I wondered myself. 18 Q: -- hear any discussion? 19 A: I wondered myself why -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- why she was there teaching school - 22 - to teach school when there was no school. 23 Q: Okay, and when you say, "Others were 24 wondering too," who was wondering as well? 25 A: I don't know. I just --
241 Q: Can you help us out with who -- when 2 you -- when you refer to others -- who those others are? 3 A: I can't recall who, specifically, 4 right offhand. It's too far ago -- too far long ago. 5 Q: Okay. And I think you told us earlier 6 in your evidence that there was no electricity at the 7 camp. Is that right? 8 A: In our campsite there was none. 9 Q: Okay. And was there electricity at 10 the barracks? 11 A: There was, yes. 12 Q: Okay. And at any point in time from 13 when you were in the camp, down on the range in your 14 trailer, was there electricity in the rifle range area? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. There is a statement that's 17 been provided by the Commission and it's a statement of 18 Claude Pelletier, and it's dated May 12th, 1997. For the 19 assistance of the Commission and Counsel, it is Document 20 2003799. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: May I just make a 22 general request that the Witness be provided with any 23 document as the Counsel wishes to examine on it. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 25 going to be asking some questions about this document?
251 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm going to ask a few 2 questions about the document. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then perhaps 4 she should be -- 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- shown the 7 document. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. Can -- I believe 9 we have another binder with that material. 10 THE WITNESS: Are finished with this one? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry? 12 THE WITNESS: Are we finished with this 13 one? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, we are. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is the 19 document that's up on the screen? What's that? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: The document -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 22 document's on the screen -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's on the
261 screen now. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: I was asked to repeat 3 the document number. And it's Document Number 2003799. 4 And I have a copy of the material I'm referring to. I'm 5 wondering if it could be handed up to Ms. Simon if she'd 6 like to have a chance to review that. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 THE WITNESS: Which one is it again? 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: Ms. Simon, the document that I'm 15 looking at you could see at Tab 36. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And according to the statement of 20 Corporal Paul Stemmler, he talks about first of all in 21 the first paragraph when he was at the base and he says 22 he did three (3) tours at CFB Ipperwash. 23 The first was around the Christmas of 24 1993, the second was the middle of January to the end of 25 March 1994, then from April of '95 to the day in July
271 when the natives took over the base. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not 3 the document on the screen, is it? 4 MS. KAREN JONES: No, it's not the 5 document that's on the screen. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You're reading from 7 the document from Paul Stemmler? 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You asked for Claude - 10 - two thee (23) -- 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Oh -- I -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2003799. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry. This is my 14 mistake then. Sorry, I made a mistake. I am referring 15 to the statement of Paul Stemmler. Excuse me, Mr. 16 Commissioner. 17 And that is Document Number 2003891. And 18 I think you are looking at the right document at Tab 36. 19 Okay. 20 And what he says in the third paragraph of 21 that statement is on the last day of his second tour, and 22 that would have been in March of 1994: 23 "I saw Dudley ripping the guts out of a 24 Canada goose he had shot and was 25 throwing them at us. Dudley and
281 Hamster were chucking --" 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 3 Rosenthal...? 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. Mr. 5 Commissioner, it appears that Counsel for the OPPA is 6 beginning on a route that was also done in the case of 7 Clifford George of putting a number of documents which we 8 know nothing about, other than the statements are here. 9 I don't know if these -- if Mr. Stemmler 10 is going to be called as a witness. I don't know the 11 status of this document. I don't understand the 12 relevance of this document, if Mr. Stemmler's not to be 13 called as a witness, and it shouldn't be put in as 14 evidence. 15 Now, if Counsel for the OPP wishes to ask 16 Ms. Simon did you ever see Dudley George do such and 17 such, or such and such, or such and such, that's fine. 18 But this seems to be a way of getting in 19 this evidence of Corporal Stemmler by reading these 20 documents. And that's what happened in the case of 21 Clifford George and in my respectful submission, if we 22 allow this to go on then Counsel could put anything in 23 through any witness. 24 And if -- it should be stopped and she 25 could just briefly ask Ms. Simon any specific questions
291 she wishes to ask about did she see Dudley do this, or 2 did she see that. That would be my submission, Mr. 3 Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There is a 5 fine line between being fair, which Mr. Roland said was 6 his intention, and being unfair, so I know that you are 7 very aware of that line and I'd ask you to try to keep on 8 the side of being fair to the Witness. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, thank 10 you. One (1) -- one (1) of the -- I think, as Mr. Roland 11 had discussed, one (1) of the things that is fair to a 12 witness is if there's a version of events that is 13 different than hers -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 15 right. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: -- that she have a 17 chance to know about it and respond to it. I'm reading 18 to the Witness, the third paragraph in this statement -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and the statement 21 specifically talks to turning off the power on the 22 training range at a specific date, i.e., there was power 23 before then and I'm giving the Witness the opportunity to 24 look at the statement -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
301 MS. KAREN JONES: -- to know where it 2 comes from, and to try and put the statement in context 3 for her -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: -- because I would hate 6 to be accused by Counsel for not putting something to her 7 fairly. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 9 understand. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: So that's what I'm 11 doing here, Mr. Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 13 understand. That's why I say there is a fine line -- 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- in being 16 fair to the Witness and being unfair and I think we're 17 just asking you to please be mindful of it. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 19 Commissioner. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 22 Q: Ms. Simon, I just wanted to go back to 23 where I was. It says -- I'd read you the first sentence 24 and then it says: 25 "Dudley and Hamster were chopping down
311 a hydro pole right in front of Dudley's 2 trailer. As a result, Ontario Hydro 3 shut the power off the training range. 4 This was witnessed by myself, a couple 5 of OPPs and an officer from the 6 Ministry of Natural Resources. There 7 were about three (3) or four (4) 8 Natives there and at one (1) point one 9 (1) of them was holding a rifle, 10 although I cannot say who." 11 And, Ms. Simon, I wanted to ask you 12 whether or not, given your familiarity with Dudley's 13 trailer and the area around there, whether or not, at any 14 point in time from 1993 until March of 1994, there was a 15 hydro pole outside or around Dudley's trailer? 16 A: There may have been a hydro pole but 17 that doesn't mean it was used for hydro. 18 Q: Okay. And were you aware at some 19 point in time around March of 1994 that that hydro pole 20 was chopped down? 21 A: I would question the validity of this 22 statement. If you know who they're talking about with 23 Hamster, this is an elderly man that was born around 24 1918. 25 Q: Okay. The question I asked you though
321 was: Were you aware of whether or not around March 1994, 2 the hydro pole had been chopped or shot down. 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. And it appears from this 5 statement that after March or during March of 1994, the 6 power was shut off around the training range. 7 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 8 with that? 9 A: I have no knowledge of what they did. 10 Q: Okay, although you lived in that area, 11 I take it. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And we had no hydro. 15 Q: Okay. And I think you told us earlier 16 in your evidence that you thought it was preposterous to 17 think of Dudley with a gun. Is that right? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 20 you, Ms. Simon, that in the course of one (1) of the 21 documents we've been provided through the Commission, is 22 a statement from Hector Gibeault. 23 A: From who? 24 Q: Hector Gibeault. And that is a 25 statement -- if you turn to your Tab 32 of the book
331 that's been put in front of you -- 2 MR. DONALD WORME: I wonder if I might 3 rise for a moment. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 5 Worme...? 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Commissioner, it 7 seems that my Friend is embarking upon a line of 8 questioning again that I believe that this Witness has 9 answered, specifically with respect to whether or not she 10 has any direct knowledge of Dudley George being in 11 possession of a gun, of firing a gun. 12 I believe she was very clear in her 13 responses In Chief that she was not -- if we were to go 14 through the exercise now of finding any and all 15 statements that would suggest otherwise, I'm not sure 16 that's a really efficient use of time and -- those are my 17 observations. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: To have her 19 say the same thing several times doesn't help us. And 20 she has said that -- I mean, her evidence has been that 21 she didn't see Dudley with a gun, I think, or know that 22 he had one (1). 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And to ask 25 each statement that may contradict here, I don't think
341 that's particularly helpful. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay, Mr. Commissioner. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Ms. Simon, just so I'm clear about 6 your evidence, were there guns that were at the base at 7 any point in time in 1993, 1994, or 1995? 8 A: Guns? 9 Q: Guns. 10 A: I can recall the military running by, 11 walking by, marching by on the road carrying their guns. 12 Q: Okay. Do you recall ever seeing any 13 of the occupiers of the training range or the barracks or 14 the Park at any time during 1993, 1994, or 1995 with 15 guns? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. And were you aware of whether 18 or not -- sorry, you've told us that you had two (2) sons 19 that were living at -- in the camp? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And were you aware of whether or not 22 they had guns? 23 A: A lot of our people are hunters. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: And I don't know where they store
351 their guns to go hunting with. I don't go hunting with 2 them so I'm aware that the hunters, those that hunt will 3 have guns but I don't know where they personally store 4 them or keep them or when they hunt. 5 Q: My question to you, Ms. Simon, was 6 whether or not -- whether you knew whether or not either 7 of your sons had guns? 8 A: Certainly, when they go and hunt. 9 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what kind 10 of guns they had? 11 A: No. I don't -- I don't know much 12 about guns. 13 Q: Okay. Did you ever talk to them 14 about that? Their having guns? 15 A: No. I'm -- I'm not much of a hunter 16 myself so I -- I'm not the person that taught them how to 17 hunt. 18 Q: Okay. In the document in front of 19 you at Tab 18 there is a statement of -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 21 Henderson, has an observation or an objection. 22 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: More an 23 observation I think, Mr. Commissioner. Many of us are 24 completely unaware of what is at Tab 18 since we don't 25 have that volume of documents.
361 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this the 2 binder of materials that Mr. Roland provided? Is that 3 what you're referring to in these tabs or is that another 4 binder with other tabs? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: It's another binder 6 with other tabs. Mr. Commissioner, what I was hoping to 7 do was let the Witness locate it. 8 And I certainly intend to describe what 9 the document is so that you and Counsel have a chance to 10 review it. And what I'm referring to is the statement of 11 Constable Wondergem and that is Commission Number 12 2003973. 13 THE WITNESS: Who was it again? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Constable Wondergem. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The document 16 has been identified in our document numbers for Counsel 17 to look at and it's in -- it's in the tab for you to look 18 at. 19 THE WITNESS: I've got 18 and there's a 20 Clelland. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: Okay. Can you look at Tab 17? Is -- 24 have you located the statement of Constable Wondergem? 25 A: Yes.
371 Q: Okay. And in that statement, 2 Constable Wondergem says that on October the 2nd, 1995 he 3 was working and he was operating an OPP cruiser and that 4 in the morning at 7:35 a.m. he was parked on Goose Marsh 5 Trail at Museum Road in the town of Bosanquet. 6 And he goes on his statement to speak 7 about observing a vehicle in that area and he looked in 8 it and he saw three (3) people, one (1) of whom he 9 identifies as your son, Marlon Simon. 10 And if you go on to the next page he talks 11 about in the back seat where your son was, he saw a rifle 12 and when he asked your son to step from the vehicle, he 13 located a located clip with a -- with 22 Magnum bullets 14 and loose bullets in his right upper front pocket and a 15 box of 22 Magnums in his upper left pocket. 16 And he goes on to say that your son and 17 the other two (2) were charged. Were you aware of this 18 incident? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: But I'm aware he's a hunter. 22 Q: And those are all my questions, Ms. 23 Simon. Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much. The only remaining cross-examination, I
381 believe, is from the Office of the Coroner. Is that 2 correct? 3 MR. AL O'MARRA; Yes, thank you, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then, of 6 course, Mr. Rosenthal. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 9 Q: Yes, thank you. Ms. Simon, I'm Al 10 O'Marra and I appear on behalf of the Chief Coroner for 11 the province We're assisting the Commission in terms of 12 certain events that followed the shooting of Dudley 13 George. 14 So our interest is in examining emergency 15 medical response, emergency services response and medical 16 response. 17 What I'd like to ask you is about events 18 following the shooting and your observations, 19 particularly as it relates to emergency medical services. 20 Now I understand from your evidence you 21 were in the -- the Camp during the evening of September 22 the 6th with Pierre George, attempting to hook your 23 trailer to move it into the park. Is that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And I understand from your
391 earlier evidence that you went down into the Park after 2 you were unsuccessful in hooking your trailer? 3 A: Oh I never did get that far. 4 Q: Okay, you were going down through the 5 camp, the base? 6 A: I went back into the barracks area. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: And on my way down towards the park, 9 I only went part way and I encountered the vehicles 10 coming up after -- 11 Q: All right. 12 A: -- that was after Dudley had 13 apparently been shot. 14 Q: All right. And can you tell us the 15 number of vehicles that were coming up at that time? Do 16 you have a recollection? 17 A: I just have a rough idea of 18 approximately a half a dozen. It was like a caravan of 19 lights coming up. 20 Q: And you decided that you would leave 21 the camp for the purpose of trying to call medial help? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Now, you also made an observation 24 about Mr. George, Pierre George's vehicle, and as I 25 understand, it was at one point at the front of the --
401 the base, a white vehicle? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Okay. Now, when you left the base, 4 was Mr. Pierre George's vehicle still there? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. And I expect that we will hear 7 that Dudley George was transferred into Pierre George's 8 vehicle and he, in turn, left the camp for the purpose of 9 seeking medical assistance. 10 A: That's what I understood happened. 11 Q: Okay. And based on your 12 observations, is it your belief that you left after Mr. 13 Pierre George had left the camp with his brother? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: But I didn't know at the time what 17 had happened. I -- during the time of the transfer of 18 Dudley from that vehicle that he was brought up in, I had 19 been down on the road turning around and at that point 20 they left, so I didn't actually see it take place. 21 Q: All right. Now, we also understand 22 that you turned left and proceeded to -- to Northville 23 and you described the events that occurred at the parking 24 lot at McPherson's. 25 A: That's correct.
411 Q: After you were arrested, as I 2 understand it, you were taken in a police cruiser back 3 past the Army Camp entrance -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- and to Ravenswood. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now as I understand it, as well, 8 Ravenswood is some two (2) kilometres to the west of the 9 Army Camp entrance. 10 A: Approximately. 11 Q: Approximately. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now you also described there in your 14 earlier evidence that you were transferred to another 15 vehicle and taken into Forest. 16 A: Into a paddy wagon, I called it. It 17 was a -- 18 Q: A paddy wagon. Okay. Now, when you 19 were at Ravenswood, could you -- are you able to assist 20 us in -- in approximately how long you were at that 21 location? 22 A: It wasn't very long, just long enough 23 to be taken out of the cruiser and put into the other 24 vehicle -- 25 Q: Okay.
421 A: -- as I recall. 2 Q: When you were there did you make any 3 observations about medical services -- ambulances? 4 A: I noted two (2) ambulances parked 5 there. 6 Q: All right. And tell us what your 7 observation was about those ambulances? 8 A: They were just parked there. 9 Q: Okay. And did you -- did you have any 10 view as to them being dispatched for the purpose of 11 assisting those who might have been injured? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. Now, we have seen that you 14 provided an interview to Detective Constable Mark 15 Armstrong back in February of last year from the 16 Coroner's office? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: I had some concerns about that. 20 There's a lot of -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- typing errors and things in there 23 and some words I -- oh, go ahead -- 24 A: No, that's fine and I've -- I've 25 conveyed your concerns to the Chief Coroner's Office
431 about those statements, but there's one (1) particular 2 passage -- perhaps if we could have that available for 3 Ms. Simon -- that's 50000168, volume XIV. 4 A: Is that this one? 5 Q: I believe so, yes. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 THE WITNESS: My name is Marcia -- M-A-R- 10 C-I-A. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 13 Q: I think that may have been from the 14 transcriber in -- in listening to the tape. If we could 15 have page 15. I believe at the top it should be two 16 three two nine (2329). Yes, that one. 17 In this portion of your -- your statement, 18 Ms. Simon, you indicate -- just at the top -- that you 19 were appalled -- you could make out that there ambulances 20 that weren't allowed through there. They were parked at 21 Ravenswood in one (1) of the lots there and then you 22 speak about being transferred into the paddy wagon. 23 What I wanted to ask you about was the -- 24 the reference, "being appalled." Was it in reference to 25 the officers being rude or in reference to the ambulances
441 that -- that you perceived as not being allowed to go 2 through? 3 A: That's -- that's what I was appalled 4 at. 5 Q: The latter? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And can you just tell -- what 8 specifically, in your observation, led you to that 9 concern? 10 A: Because I had tried to put a call 11 through requesting help at Stony Point and knowing that 12 people had been shot and they were just parked there at 13 that roadblock. 14 Q: Would like a moment? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Are you all right to continue, Ms. 19 Simon? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Now, the next area I'd just 22 like to ask you about is when you are in Forest, after 23 you've been transferred by paddy wagon and taken to the 24 location where you were held. 25 I understand that when you were there,
451 that you overheard, what you describe in your interview - 2 - and I believe your evidence earlier -- the monitoring 3 of vehicles. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about that? 6 What -- what was your perception of the 7 vehicles that were being monitored and what was going on 8 during that monitoring? 9 A: I can't recall the exact words now 10 but the impression that I got was that they were 11 observing the progress of two (2) vehicles as they 12 approached closer and closer to Strathroy -- to the 13 hospital. 14 Q: Was it your impression either at that 15 time or afterwards that the monitoring related to Pierre 16 George and the transport of his Dudley to the hospital? 17 A: I guessed that that was possibly one 18 and I thought possibly the other, in hindsight, would 19 have been Nicholas. 20 Q: The other question I wanted to ask 21 you and just in reference to confirmation as to some 22 information we received from Ms. Bonnie Bressette. It 23 relates to the ambulance service in the area. 24 I've observed that up the road here in 25 Forest that there's a -- the Forest district ambulance
461 service. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Was that in place in September of 4 1995? 5 A: I -- I don't know. I went to the pay 6 phone at Northville which is on the Bedford, Port Franks 7 telephone exchange -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- so I really don't know who I got a 10 hold of when I called the operator. 11 Q: Okay. It wasn't -- it wasn't as to 12 who you contacted, but do you have knowledge as to 13 whether in September of 1995, this facility, the 14 ambulance facility here in Forest was in existence? 15 A: I believe it was. 16 Q: Okay, that's what I was inquiring 17 about, thank you, Ms. Simon. Those are my questions of 18 you. 19 A: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much. I now believe counsel on behalf of Ms. Simon. 22 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Good morning, Mr. 23 Commissioner. For the record my name is Jackie Esmonde, 24 I'm here representing Aazhoodena and the George Family 25 Group. I expect to be perhaps an hour.
471 Do you wish to take a break at this time-- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 3 should continue with it a little bit and take a break at 4 what approximately 11:15? Approximately 11:15 we'll aim 5 for. Thank you very much. 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 8 Q: Now, Ms. Simon, I would like to begin 9 by asking you a number of questions about Stony Point and 10 its history. You've told us in your testimony that your 11 family was very active and pushing for the return of the 12 Stony Point Reserve territory, and that you yourself have 13 done research into the history of Stony Point. 14 I'm wondering if you could tell us what 15 sources of knowledge you have about the history of Stony 16 Point? 17 A: Sources of knowledge? It's just -- 18 my knowledge of our community is based on a lifetime of 19 hearing the stories of our people as they relate to our 20 homeland. I also tried to read any historical books and 21 things that may have content about the history of the 22 Potawatmi and Ojibwe people. 23 And I've read as much as I can of the old 24 Indian Affairs records, primary source documents, read 25 through a number of Treaties and things that pertain to
481 our rights there, and discuss and learn with others. 2 It's an ongoing process. 3 While I was at the University, any 4 courses. The first part of my degree was focussed in 5 administrative studies and the second part was 6 anthropology and any projects that I could work our 7 history into, I would -- I would do that. 8 So that I would order as many rolls of 9 microfilm from the National Archives through inter- 10 library loan and read them while I was a student at the 11 University of Western Ontario because they had the big 12 microfilm viewers there. 13 And that's been ongoing. Does that answer 14 your question? 15 Q: Yes, thank you. Now I believe you've 16 also told us that your parents used to host meetings in 17 their home? 18 A: Oh, that was another source of where 19 I learned, but I guess it sort of falls into that same 20 area. 21 In the 1960's, particularly, they were 22 very active in compiling as much information as they 23 could about our Potawatomi roots. And that's all 24 intermingled with their Chippewa so it -- it overlapped. 25 And it was a -- those are beautiful memories now, because
491 pretty well all of the Elders participated in that, and 2 that was before we had like a band administration, even, 3 to support that. 4 The Elders would gather together and tell 5 -- tell stories about what they knew of our -- our 6 history. Our grandmother had passed on documents that 7 our grandfather before us had been very involved in and 8 we used his research to continue on to piece together our 9 history and it was a nice experience to be able to learn 10 from all of those older people at that time. 11 Q: Now I understand that over the years 12 there have been several reports or research reports that 13 have been written about the history of Stony Point. Do 14 you have any knowledge about that? 15 A: I know in -- I think it's Schmall's 16 (phonetic) book on the Ojibwe of Southern Ontario he 17 refers to a paper that had been put together in the early 18 70s at the University of Western Ontario. And I believe 19 that may be one (1) of the documents that had been 20 submitted by one (1) of the other members in our group. 21 I'm also aware that our people pieced 22 together a -- a brief that was placed before the Standing 23 Committee on Aboriginal Affairs in 1991. And -- 24 Q: Can I just stop you there. I believe 25 -- there's a pile of documents in front of you that has a
501 cover page -- a list of documents from Marcia Simon. Do 2 you have that? And this was provided to all Counsel as 3 well. 4 And I believe the second document there 5 says, 6 "The case of the Stony Point reserve 7 Number 43, a brief of fact and 8 argument"? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Is this the document that you're 11 referring to? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: And on -- on the cover it -- it says 15 it's prepared by the Stony Point band and it was 16 submitted to the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs 17 in December the 11th of 1991 and our -- our -- our chief 18 at that time was my uncle, Robert George. 19 And we were very proud of him that he got 20 that far with our struggle that it actually found its way 21 to Ottawa and had been heard by the Standing Committee 22 and Parliament. 23 And out of that they made the 24 recommendation that the government rectify a serious 25 injustice done to the Stony Point First Nation almost
511 fifty (50) years ago by returning the land at Stony Point 2 to its aboriginal inhabitants and their descendants from 3 whom the land was seized under the War Measures Act. 4 And then it states the Order in Council 5 PC2913 April the 14th of 1942. 6 And that was -- 7 Q: Now you -- you're reading from a 8 document that was also in that pile of documents in front 9 of you. 10 A: Yes, those are the report -- the 11 minute report of those proceedings and -- 12 Q: For the assistance of Counsel, if 13 this in the Inquiry Document Numbers, it's at Volume VI, 14 Number 1010458. Sorry, if you could continue. 15 A: So that was one (1) document. I felt 16 it was fairly well done because I -- I always liked to 17 point it out that we've done this without government 18 assistance, this is out of our own pockets that we've 19 struggled to regain our homeland. 20 Q: And I won't -- and I won't make you 21 go through this -- the case of the Stony Point Reserve 22 Number 43 in great detail, but if you could just tell us 23 what -- what the purpose of this document was and what -- 24 in brief what its argument was. 25 A: It summarized the history of our
521 people and what happened starting right from the -- the 2 treaty of 1825/1827 and a little bit about the 3 administrative setup that the different reserves were 4 placed under. 5 And it goes through the separation from 6 Sarnia, that Walpole was the first to separate, then 7 Sarnia. Leading up to the -- 1942 with the War Measures 8 Act. It talks about the move to the neighbouring 9 reserve, Kettle Point. A little bit about the social 10 cost to both the Stony Point and Kettle Point people, 11 communities, how they were affected. 12 And I'm sure there's more research that 13 could be done to help to -- that this is just a -- a 14 touch of what actually happened to us. And I feel it was 15 very well done at -- at that time that it had been placed 16 before that Standing Committee and was a convincing 17 argument at that time to recognize the wrong that had 18 been done to our people. 19 Q: And by your people, you mean the 20 Stony Point band. 21 A: In particular -- 22 Q: In particular. 23 A: Yes. 24 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Mr. Commissioner, 25 I'm wondering if these two (2) documents could be marked
531 as the next Exhibits? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-50 and P-51, your 4 Honour. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-50: The House of Commons Standing 9 Committee on Aboriginal 10 Affairs Third Report Volume 6 11 1010458. 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-51: The Case of the Stony Point 13 Reserve Number 43: A Brief of 14 Fact and Argument 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Commissioner, I 16 just want to make an observation more than anything. 17 There are a number of documents that I expect My Friend 18 will wish to tender before the Commission. 19 It should be noted that some of them are - 20 - are, in my submission in any event, fairly 21 uncontroversial, a submission before the Standing 22 Committee. 23 But there are other documents that it 24 seems to me ought to be marked for identification 25 purposes, simply as we have marked others, in that at
541 some point in time, I expect that Counsel will call 2 forward other persons to prove these documents and that's 3 certainly our hope. 4 Otherwise the value of those documents, 5 the weight, will be argued obviously, by other Counsel at 6 some point in time. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When one (1) 8 of those documents is presented, will you identify it and 9 we'll do it that way? 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 13 Q: Thank you. I'd like to take you to 14 another document. It's entitled "Stony Point First 15 Nations Number 43: Declaration of Independence". 16 Do you have that in front of you? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Do you recognize this document? 19 A: Yes, I do. And it's minus the quote 20 that was read into it. There's a quote that was -- 21 Q: Could you tell us what this document 22 is? 23 A: Earlier in 1991, I believe, I 24 accompanied our -- our then chief, Robert George to the 25 community centre in Kettle Point where Mr. Sidden
551 (phonetic) the then Minister of Indian Affairs was 2 visiting the community. 3 And my uncle read this statement to -- to 4 them at the community centre and I -- I didn't think much 5 of it until I saw how he presented himself. He had got a 6 new suit and obviously was fairly nervous at -- at going 7 in and -- and doing this. And I remember as he was 8 reading that, that his hands were kind of shaking. And I 9 really feel that he did the best that he could for us at 10 that time. 11 Q: Would you be able to read this into 12 the record? 13 A: "Stony Point First Nations Number 43 14 entitled 'The Decoration of 15 Independence'. Chief Bressette, 16 Council, Mr. Sidden. 17 Today we come before you as 18 representatives Locatees and 19 descendants of the First Nations people 20 of Stony Point Number 43. We consider 21 this an honour to have been allowed to 22 address you during a time when 23 Aboriginal people across the land 24 express concern about the economy of 25 their communities, education and health
561 of the people, self-government, and the 2 past injustices toward our communities. 3 In 1827 our ancestors entered into 4 treaty with the Crown. The greater 5 part of our lands were given away at 6 that time. In exchange our people were 7 guaranteed the future use of the lands 8 and resources of Stony Point. 9 For the following hundred fifteen (115) 10 years our people continue to raise 11 their families on the land. In 1942 12 when our grandfathers, grandmothers, 13 fathers and mothers refused to 14 surrender the remaining land to the 15 Federal Government, the Department of 16 National Defence invoked the provisions 17 of the War Measures Act and took our 18 land against the wishes of the people. 19 Furthermore, the land was taken in 20 violation of surrender provisions that 21 were first identified in the Royal 22 Proclamation 1763. 23 Some of the people of Stony Point were 24 relocated to this, the Kettle Point 25 Reserve Number 44. Others from Stony
571 Point relocated to the surrounding 2 areas wherever they could find refuge. 3 Servicemen returned from duty overseas 4 to find their homes gone. In 1942 the 5 Federal Government of Canada promised 6 that one (1) day our lands would be 7 returned to the people of the said 8 reserve. At the time of our 9 dispossession we had our own council 10 and were developing our community. If 11 we had been allowed to continue with 12 our lives on the land of our 13 forefathers, we would be there today 14 governing our affairs just as the Chief 15 and Council of Kettle Point are allowed 16 to govern the affairs of their people. 17 With the passage of time, our people 18 find themselves in a position where 19 their inherent right to self-government 20 is not recognized. This simply is not 21 acceptable any longer. 22 For several years now we have tried 23 with very little success to have our 24 inherent right recognized. Much of 25 this lack of recognition has occurred
581 because the people of Stony Point had 2 lost knowledge and understanding of 3 their heritage." 4 And they insert a quote there, it was once 5 said I don't have the wording of that quote but it 6 pertained to what happened. Continuing on: 7 "The time has come and our people are 8 remembering. Remembering that they are 9 a nation that has never relinquished 10 their right to make decisions about 11 their affairs. We know that we have 12 never given away the lands or any 13 interest in the lands of Stony Point. 14 Mr. Sidden, we stand before you today 15 in unity and with purpose of mind and 16 heart. On Saturday, August the 3rd, 17 1991 we met in a general meeting of the 18 people of Stony Point. We presently 19 have a hundred and thirty-nine (139) 20 signed documents that indicate the 21 support of the people to declare 22 ourselves a nation separate from any 23 other band of First Nations. 24 With growing support we represent two 25 hundred thirty-six (236) individuals
591 who have chosen to be identified as 2 members of the Stony Point First 3 Nations community. It has been 4 determined by our people that in 5 pursuing our right to self- 6 determination, separate representation 7 should exist. 8 As Chief with Council of the Stony 9 Point First Nations appointed by 10 acclamation on the 3rd of August, 1991, 11 I hereby advise you, the representative 12 of the Federal Government of Canada, 13 that in accordance with our aboriginal 14 right, we declare ourselves a separate 15 band this 6th day of August, 1991. 16 In pursuit of that, we will continue to 17 look toward the day in the near future 18 when we will have our land restored to 19 us as we participate equally with 20 others in the affairs of First Nations 21 people. 22 On behalf of the people of Stony Point 23 First Nations Number 43, I respectfully 24 request that the Government of Canada 25 begin immediately to restore the
601 statutory recognition of our people. 2 Failing to do so, the Government of 3 Canada and any other individuals or 4 organizations will be accountable for 5 any loss or disadvantage incurred by 6 our people in the lack of recognition 7 of our separate and distinct status as 8 members of the Stony Point First 9 Nations community. 10 Sincerely yours, 11 Chief Robert L. George, 12 Stony Point First Nations No. 43 13 R. R. 2 14 Forest, Ontario NOL 1JO." 15 Q: Now, I understand then that Robert 16 George was speaking for the people of Stony Point when he 17 made this statement to the Minister of Indian Affairs. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you agreed with what he had to 20 say. 21 A: I did, yes. 22 Q: And you continue to agree with that 23 today. 24 A: And I certainly do agree with him to 25 this day.
611 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Perhaps now would be 2 a good time to take a break. I'll be moving on to a new 3 area. 4 Oh, before that, perhaps this could be 5 marked as the next exhibit. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 Mark that as an exhibit. 8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number P-52, Your 9 Honour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-52. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-52: Document entitled Stoney 13 Point First Nations No. 43 14 Declaration of Independence 15 16 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 17 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 11:16 a.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 11:36 a.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
621 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 4 Q: Now you've had an opportunity to tell 5 us a little bit about Dudley George. I just have a few 6 other questions. 7 From what you observed of him, how was Mr. 8 George with children? 9 A: Oh, he enjoyed being around children. 10 He just seemed to become one (1) with them and they 11 sensed that in him. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now in the -- the presentation that 16 you read to us the other day that what you prepared for 17 his birthday, you described him as a nation builder. 18 Could you tell us why you described him 19 that way? 20 A: Because of his dedication and 21 commitment to having our community restored in Stony 22 Point. They lived through incredible harassment, 23 denigration, and very difficult living conditions and he 24 remained adamant in his resolve to stay there. 25 He was very good for the spirit, for the
631 soul of Stony Point. It's very fitting that our 2 community is called Aazhoodena because when they took his 3 life, they took our heart out of our community. 4 He -- in that trailer on the ranges, he 5 had some -- the kind of personality that made one feel 6 good to be around him. My spirits would always be lifted 7 when I would spend a little time with him. 8 And he liked to tell jokes and it was 9 always a light-hearted, outgoing nature that he 10 portrayed, but underneath you knew that he was as sturdy 11 as a rock. He was solid. He was resolved to do what he 12 was doing. He gave his whole -- well, he gave his whole 13 life for what he believed in for our people. 14 Q: You referred to "harassment and 15 denigration". Can you explain to me what you meant by 16 that? 17 A: There was a lot of harassment just in 18 the physical location there. There were cars that would 19 ride by constantly shouting obscenities and -- and he -- 20 he would just come back with something that -- and just 21 shrug it off. I -- I would be very upset but it -- it 22 seemed he had a crazy way, a silly way of letting it 23 bounce off. 24 There was ongoing harassment from the 25 military while we were in there. The first year I know
641 the -- was frightening when the grenades were shot off. 2 Those are pretty powerful explosions and our people are 3 sitting nearby. 4 To have the weekend militia come in and be 5 running down the roads in front and carrying their 6 weapons was intimidating. There were a number of things 7 that were happening where, if our people reacted to them, 8 that's what would land up in the papers. 9 The -- I know my older son was living down 10 in the bivouac area and one (1) night he awoke to have 11 the -- all the tires on his quad runner pierced. They 12 woke with "shhh" sound coming out of all the tires on 13 that. 14 Q: I'm sorry, the Bivouac area? Where 15 is that? 16 A: It -- it's -- there was inland lake 17 everybody referred to as Dudley's lake because he went 18 and camped there in the summertime. And it was just 19 before you turn to go into that that was a Bivouac area 20 that the military had used for their Bivouac manoeuvres. 21 But Marlin had his -- his trailer parked in there. 22 And I believe at one (1) point they did 23 apprehend one (1) of the military police that was -- was 24 doing some of those things and -- 25 Q: So who is "they"? The military or
651 Stony Pointers? 2 A: The Stony Pointers. 3 Q: And do you recall who that was? 4 A: I don't know specifically who it was. 5 I'm aware of that because with all of those things 6 happening, the community had a meeting called and that 7 was when that press release was issued that was dated 8 July the 6th, '95. And if a person were to check the 9 media coverage prior to that, there was a lot of coverage 10 about the terrible things the Stony Pointers were alleged 11 to have done. 12 So they -- they called this press coverage 13 -- press conference and this press release was -- was 14 issued at that. One (1) of the publications was the 15 London Free Press as a result. The press release was 16 dated July the 6th, '95. 17 Q: Can we just -- why don't we look at 18 that document and I would like to ask you a few questions 19 about that before we move onto any newspaper articles 20 that were published as a result? This was in the pile of 21 documents that I've provided to all Counsel, it was 22 referred to yesterday as well. 23 And I believe you told us that this -- 24 what was written here was written as a result of a 25 meeting.
661 Can you tell us a little bit more about 2 what sparked the need to put out this press release on 3 July 6th, 1995? 4 A: Well, the -- the subject of it is 5 recent media accusations and insinuations against the 6 Stony Point Anishnaabek. And the first introductory 7 paragraph says: 8 "On July the 4th, '95, the Sarnia 9 Observer published an article which is 10 defamatory to the character of the 11 Stony Point Anishnaabek, as we are in 12 only the beginning stages of rebuilding 13 our community. A struggle which is 14 being waged without the basic human 15 rights accorded other human beings in 16 this country." 17 I believe one (1) of the articles would 18 refer to someone being charged with issuing death 19 threats. And we made the statement that the Stony Point 20 Anishnaabek have issued no death threats against anyone. 21 And there were claims that the Anishnaabek 22 were assaulting people and we made the statement the 23 Stony Point Anishnaabek have assaulted no one. And 24 someone made a statement that the security guard was 25 threatened and assaulted. And again we stated that the
671 Stony Point Anishnaabek have no knowledge of a seventy 2 year (70) old security guard being threatened or 3 assaulted. 4 And there is an acknowledgement that there 5 was an accident in point number 4 and it occurred when 6 the military police cut two (2) people off who were on 7 security patrol of our territory, the Stony Point 8 territory. The Anishnaabek security had to be increased 9 due to increased military harassment including the 10 piercing of tires on Stony Point vehicles and the 11 threatening with guns against the lives of the Stony 12 Point Anishnaabek. 13 Number 5 was about that -- the gas 14 training chambers which had been torched. And we -- we 15 were actually glad to see that. We don't know who was 16 responsible. But another building had been burned and 17 should be completely demolished we add. As all the evils 18 -- all the evil weapons of death, war, and destruction 19 must be removed from the Stony Point territory. And we 20 look upon the gas training chambers as such an evil. 21 And it -- if I remember correctly, they 22 were contacting Carl George for comments on different 23 things and by then he had left Stony Point and they 24 wanted to be made clear that he no longer was our -- our 25 leader.
681 So in point number 6 they said the Stony 2 Point Anishnaabek do not have Carl George as chief. The 3 -- there were three (3) of the leaders of Stony Point 4 that went and informed him that he does not represent the 5 Stony Point Anishnaabek and is therefore not to act in 6 the capacity of chief of Stony Point. 7 And they further add that neither Carl 8 George nor any member of his family reside in Stony 9 Point. And, again, there was in the media some -- there 10 was some suggestion that Elders were being threatened. 11 And they got together, the Elders themselves, and said 12 that the majority of the Stony Point Elders wish to 13 inform the media that they have not been threatened and 14 to ensure the safety of the Stony Point Elders, the Stony 15 Point Anishnaabek have security a patrol on duty. 16 One (1) of the other complaints that our 17 Elders had was that there were people that were prowling 18 around their cabins where they lived and they -- they 19 thought they were the military themselves that were doing 20 these things. So our people had to step up the security 21 for protection. 22 I didn't write that and I tried to squeeze 23 it all it on to one (1) -- one (1) page. And also we 24 wanted it to be made clear that the Stony Point 25 Anishnaabek, at that time, had already initiated legal
691 proceedings in 1994. And they felt it was the Stony 2 Point Anishnaabek who nudged the Kettle Point band 3 Council into doing something to attempting any type of 4 legal activity later on. 5 And they issued a chimegwag (phonetic) 6 thanking the media for correcting and attempting to 7 present the other side of the story in response to all 8 that negative publicity that was produced out. 9 So following that press conference then, 10 one (1) of the local papers, the London Free Press, 11 during that press conference, they actually brought the 12 military jacket of the policeman that they had 13 apprehended -- 14 Q: Now you're referring to an article 15 which is also in the package. I believe it's the last 16 document. It's a newspaper article entitled: "Stony 17 Point Community Irked by Military Presence"? 18 Is that right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. Thank you. 21 A: Dated July the 7th, 1995. 22 Q: And you were explaining the 23 photograph? 24 A: Well, it -- it says there: 25 "Bruce Manning, a representative of the
701 Stony Point First Nation holds up a 2 military jacket he says natives took 3 away from a man they say was slashing 4 tires at the reserve. Manning says it 5 just -- it is just the latest example 6 of military harassment of the natives. 7 A spokesperson for the Canadian Forces 8 base says the military is not harassing 9 the natives but there has been an 10 escalation of events against the 11 military." 12 Q: And how do you respond to that 13 statement? 14 A: I guess as a Stony Pointer, we expect 15 it. It's not so, but we expect it. 16 Q: Now there are -- are several 17 attachments to the press release and I know that there's 18 a newspaper article there, Ipperwash dispute heats up. 19 Is it -- this is one (1) of the articles 20 that the press release was responding to -- 21 A: Yes, yes. 22 Q: Could the press release be marked as 23 the next exhibit, followed by the newspaper article 24 "Stony Point Community Irked by Military Presence"? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-53 and P-54, Your
711 Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-53: Press release dated July 6th, 4 1995, and letter to Ms. 5 Marcia Simon from the Ontario 6 Provincial Police dated June 7 15th, 1995 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-54: London Free Press article 10 dated July 7th, 1995. 11 Entitled "Stony Point 12 Community irked by Military 13 presence" 14 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, Commissioner, 16 if Counsel could simply identify for the record what's 17 contained in the exhibit. The Registrar has reminded me 18 at the break that we need to have a better description, 19 so if you could just describe both the date and if there 20 are attachments to the press release and what the 21 attachments are. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 24 Q: Thank you. The date is -- of the 25 press release is July 6th, 1995 and I see there's a -- a
721 letter from -- a letter to you as the second page. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And could you identify that letter for 4 us, please? 5 A: This is from the Ontario Provincial 6 Police dated June 15th, 1995. 7 Q: And why was it attached to this press 8 release? 9 A: I had a really bizarre event happen in 10 my front yard in Kettle Point when my mother and I were 11 arriving home about one o'clock in the morning. We found 12 a -- I believe there were a couple of cruisers on the 13 road and there was a man operating a backhoe, digging up 14 my front yard. I actually -- the way I observed it, it 15 looked like the police were actually supervising him 16 and -- 17 Q: Was that the OPP or the Kettle Point 18 police? 19 A: They were both. 20 Q: Both. 21 A: They were both and nothing came of 22 that. The man did a fair amount of damage to my yard. 23 He -- he wrecked a big -- I don't know if it's about a 24 four (4) foot -- wooden planter and -- and dug big 25 trenches in the yard there and -- and nothing -- he was
731 just allowed to do that. And when I went to try to make 2 him stop, the backhoe bucket got swung at me and my 3 mother. 4 And I didn't know if he was going to 5 continue on so I rushed over to Stony Point to let our 6 men know what was happening to us. And by the time I got 7 back, the backhoe had gone and it turned out to be a 8 prominent business man down the road. And they were just 9 going to let it go at that and I was appalled that no 10 charges were laid; that he was allowed to swing the 11 backhoe bucket at us and be witnessed. 12 I tried to contact the Human Rights 13 Commission to say that -- as a native woman, that I was 14 being denied police protection and they referred me to -- 15 they said they didn't handle complaints, that I was 16 referred to the Police Complaints Commissioner. And 17 basically what happened was, you place a complaint with 18 them and they investigate themselves and tell you that 19 your complaints are unsubstantiated. 20 So I -- I included this letter. It was a 21 bitter lesson for me. 22 Q: And why specifically did you include 23 it in this press release? 24 A: It -- it was included. It -- it had 25 just -- I had just received it --
741 Q: Mmm hmm. 2 A: -- at the same time that they're also 3 establishing all these charges against the Stony Point 4 People for alleged offences but when something is done to 5 us, nothing -- no charges were laid. The man never had a 6 charge laid on him. 7 Q: Thank you. The -- the third page, the 8 second attachment is a newspaper article, "Ipperwash 9 Dispute Heats Up" from the Sarnia Observer dated July 10 4th, 1995. 11 A: Yes. That was what our -- our press 12 conference was in response to. One (1) of the articles, 13 it -- in that article it lists -- it has a whole list of 14 offences that our people had been committing. 15 Q: Allegedly committing? 16 A: Pardon me? 17 Q: Allegedly committing. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Is what I understand from your 20 evidence. And the final attachment is a newspaper 21 article which I believe is also the Sarnia Observer dated 22 Saturday, May 6th, 1995 entitled "Families Continue Fight 23 For Lost Land." Can you tell me why this was included in 24 the press release? 25 A: May 6th is a historic day for our
751 people. That was two (2) years then had passed that 2 their living on those pretty rugged conditions on the 3 ranges there. Co-existing with the military and the nice 4 cozy barracks. That maybe aren't quite so cozy but 5 they're certainly living in much better conditions that 6 our Elder Clifford George was. 7 That he's denied the hydro and telephone 8 and water. And he's certainly up in years at that time. 9 And he celebrated the two (2) years of remaining in 10 there. 11 Q: So this -- I take it this newspaper 12 article was attached because it commemorated the 13 anniversary of the return to your territory? 14 A: Partly. And it -- it also talks 15 about the lawsuits and quoting Chief Tom Bressette. 16 There's a number of -- of points in there that are 17 important. 18 Q: Do you wish to identify them for us 19 that you said you refer to a quote from Chief Tom 20 Bressette? It might be of assistance if you told us 21 where that was and what it said? 22 A: I have to refresh my memory on this. 23 This is going back quite a few years for me, as well it 24 seems. 25 Q: Oh, I see.
761 A: Towards the bottom of the first 2 column it states: 3 "In April the officially recognized 4 Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point 5 Band launched a lawsuit against the 6 Federal Government seeking the return 7 of the camp and 725 million in 8 damages." 9 So it -- it -- there's a duplication of 10 efforts I guess our -- our people are struggling for the 11 same thing and we've got two (2) different groups. And 12 it states: 13 "Tom Bressette said his Band Council 14 grew tired of negotiating and became 15 frustrated by the lack of progress." 16 And it -- it claimed in there: 17 "About forty-five (45) of the lands' 18 original residents and descendants have 19 launched a lawsuit in Federal Court 20 against both the Federal Government and 21 the Kettle and Stony Point Band." 22 And I don't have that in front of me but I 23 think it was prior to that, that's what was referred to 24 in the -- in the press release that it -- it had been 25 initiated in 1994 and that they were represented by John
771 McNair (phonetic) at that time. 2 Q: Okay. Now if I could just take you 3 back to -- you were telling us about the backhoe in your 4 -- sorry, the backhoe in your front yard. I understand 5 you did receive a cheque for the damage, is that right? 6 A: Eventually there was one (1) that was 7 delivered to me by the gentleman's wife, made out from 8 her but delivered to me by the police. Local police 9 brought it to me. And I guess the -- the eventual 10 charges were simply dropped. 11 Q: Thank you. Now, I understand that 12 there was an incident your son, Kevin Simon, in 1993? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what can you tell me about that? 15 A: To my knowledge he had moved into a 16 little shed beside the -- the ranges and in a pre-dawn 17 raid, the military went and evicted him. And not only 18 just evicting him, they took all of his money and 19 clothing and furniture and he also had a number of 20 fridges and stoves that he had brought for the people to 21 use as they were setting up their dwellings. 22 And we don't feel the police are very 23 supportive of us. That we felt the only way we could -- 24 I -- call it counting coup, that you have to count coup 25 and you have to do something that -- in this case, it was
781 to embarrass the military. 2 Q: And when did this incident occur? 3 A: I don't know the exact date but in 4 reaction to that we had planned to -- that building had 5 been burned to the ground when he was at work -- 6 Q: This was after he was evicted -- 7 A: Yeah -- 8 Q: -- I assume, obviously. 9 A: Yeah, but -- 10 Q: And do you know how long after it 11 was? 12 A: He went to work, he was working in 13 London. He was able to get to work on time and I didn't 14 know right away that this had happened. And I went 15 looking for him to be reassured. 16 So when he came home that night, all there 17 was was the -- the burned up debris of the shed. And his 18 parting exchange, apparently, with the military was they 19 -- they insisted that they did this to him because that 20 was their -- their building and he told them then to get 21 their building off of his territory. 22 So we knew they were going to be having 23 graduation ceremonies at the end of the cadet camp, LG 24 Day, Lieutenant Governors Day and we invited other First 25 Nations to come and attend this historic graduation. And
791 Stony Pointers decide to help Kevin return that building 2 to the military and it was dumped on the parade square 3 during the graduation ceremonies and we had big banners 4 welcoming everyone to the Stony Point First Nation. 5 And then, as we were leaving, some of the 6 media wanted to know what that was all about and it was 7 Caroline George, Dudley's sister, invited them over to 8 our camp site and we told them what had happened. 9 So it was at that point then, that this 10 appeared in the newspaper, the write up that -- this 11 followed the graduation ceremonies -- 12 Q: And you -- 13 A: And there was -- 14 Q: If you can identify what article 15 you're referring to. 16 A: The "Native Says Military Police 17 Assaulted him at Camp". And this one is dated Monday, 18 August the 23rd, 1993. So the graduation ceremonies were 19 on Saturday and this was the first publication of their 20 paper after -- after Saturday. 21 Q: And that was in the Sarnia Observer? 22 A: That was in the Sarnia Observer. It 23 was also covered in the -- the London Free Press and I 24 don't know if that one is in -- in with -- so the London 25 Free Press has one (1) articled dated "Stony Point
801 Teenager Complains of Assault", also dated August the 2 23rd, 1993. 3 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: That article is not 4 in the package. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I haven't 6 seen that article. 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: No. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 10 CONTINUE BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 11 Q: But there was a third one. Perhaps we 12 could focus on the two (2) that we have before us today - 13 - the Sarnia Observer article, dated Monday, August 23, 14 1993 and I believe there was a further article that we've 15 included in the package. 16 A: I guess this one is dated the twenty- 17 seventh. I just wanted to put out the -- an example of 18 the type of harassment that was ongoing was at the end of 19 this article. 20 Q: Which article are you referring to? 21 A: The Sarnia Observer, "Native Says 22 Military Police Assaulted Him at the Camp". 23 Q: Mmm hmm. 24 A: And it's an article by George 25 Mathieson and he concludes his article stating that
811 Captain Prentice (phonetic) also threatened the Observer 2 with trespassing charges if reporters entered the base to 3 talk with natives again without prior permission from the 4 military. 5 And we had experienced a number of 6 incidents where, if they could identify people that had 7 come into us, they would be approached in some way and 8 that -- that's one (1) example where he counted coup for 9 us. 10 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's the 12 number of this exhibit? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's 2002703 and it's 14 page 44. That was page 44 of fifty-eight (58). 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 JACKIE ESMONDE: And the other article 17 from August 27, 1993 -- it's entitled: 18 "Natives Charge Harassment Rising at 19 Camp Ipperwash" and that is at Volume 20 V, Inquiry Document Number 1007619, 21 page 9. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 25 Q: And I believe this article also
821 documents the incident with Kevin Simon. I know the 2 print is very small. 3 A: Mmm hmm. Yeah. 4 "Natives Charge Harassment Rising at 5 Camp Ipperwash but Military Denies it's 6 Harassing the camp occupiers. Camp 7 Ipperwash Stony Point natives on the 8 military camp are being stalked 9 according to native woman. Vehicles 10 are being vandalized, people are 11 watching the native camps while hiding 12 in the bush and a threatening letter 13 was delivered to her son, according to 14 Marcia Simon." 15 Q: And is that consistent with what you 16 recall telling the reporter? 17 A: Oh, yes. I -- I have still -- 18 Q: The outcome? 19 A: -- got that letter and I've carefully 20 kept it away and I believe my son will be submitting that 21 for evidence or documentation. 22 "They are pushing, pushing. I know 23 they are trying to frighten us, said 24 Ms. Simon about her contention the 25 military is responsible for the unusual
831 events. And a Canadian Armed Forces 2 spokesman from Camp Ipperwash denies 3 the accusation. There is no program of 4 intimidation, said Captain Tim Laurie 5 this morning. We wouldn't gain anything 6 by intimidation." 7 But that -- that was going on -- they do 8 state a little later in there that: 9 "Her sixteen (16) year old son, Kevin 10 Simon, claims he was assaulted by 11 military police when they evicted, 12 August the 16th, him from a military 13 shed and they deny there was any 14 physical contact between him and Mr. 15 Simon. 16 On Thursday Mr. Simon received a letter 17 in the mail addressed to native 18 activist, Kevin Simon. The anonymous 19 letter threatened to lynch him if there 20 were any more claims made to the media 21 about happenings at the camp. 'I am 22 probably more upset,' said Mrs. Simon. 23 'There's also been some unusual 24 mechanical problems with the vehicles 25 parked inside the camp. An unusual
841 split appeared on the expensive exhaust 2 pipe of one (1) vehicle and another had 3 a very suspicious carburetor problem 4 and at other times, people in what 5 appear to be military uniforms have 6 been seen moving through the bushes 7 around our encampments.'" 8 And I felt they were all scare tactics. 9 And there were always rumours that they were coming in to 10 evict us. 11 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Thank you. Could 12 the Sarnia Observer Article dated Monday August 23rd, 13 1993 entitled "Native Says Military Police Assaulted Him 14 at Camp" be marked as the next exhibit? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-55, your Honour. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-55. 17 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Followed by the 18 Sarnia Observer Article dated August 27th, 1993 entitled: 19 "Natives Charge Harassment Rising at Camp Ipperwash". 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-56, your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-56. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-55: Sarnia Observer Article dated 24 Monday August 23rd, 1993 25 entitled "Native Says
851 Military Police Assaulted Him 2 at Camp" 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-56: Sarnia Observer Article dated 5 August 27th, 1993 entitled: 6 "Natives Charge Harassment 7 Rising at Camp Ipperwash". 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 10 Q: Now just to go back to Mr. Dudley 11 George, there was one (1) other document that I wanted to 12 draw your attention to. It -- which is on the documents 13 on the front of you, from the Minister of Indian Affairs 14 and Northern Development. 15 There appears to be a letter there that is 16 to Mr. Anthony O'Brien George who we know to be Mr. 17 Dudley George? 18 A: Yes, yes. 19 Q: And do you recognize this letter? 20 A: Well, I've just seen it in this 21 package as a letter that had been addressed to Dudley and 22 it's written from Ron Irwin, Minister of Indian Affairs 23 at that time. And there's a copy of the postmark on the 24 envelope as well, the 24th of August 1994. 25 Q: And this appears to be a letter that
861 was sent to Dudley George in response to a letter that he 2 had written to Mr. Irwin, the Honourable Mr. Irwin. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Is that right? 5 A: Yeah. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Perhaps you could read the relevant 10 portions. We could skip the first one, perhaps, but -- 11 no, actually if you could just read this letter into the 12 record that would ... 13 A: "Dear Mr. George, 14 this is in response to your letter 15 concerning the petition from the Stony 16 Point group requesting recognition as a 17 separate First Nation and more 18 particularly to your concerns regarding 19 my response of May the 20th, 1994. 20 The Department's records indicate that 21 by agreement dated July the 10th, 1827 22 Surrender Number 29, the Chippewa 23 Indians of the Chenail Ecarte and St. 24 Clair surrendered to the Crown an 25 extensive tract of land in south-
871 western Ontario in exchange for four 2 (4) reserves that were set aside for 3 their use and benefit. 4 These four (4) reserves were comprised 5 of the Sarnia Indian Reserve, the 6 Kettle Point Indian Reserve, the Stony 7 Point or River Aux Sables Indian 8 Reserve and the Moore Township Indian 9 Reserve. 10 In 1836 the Chippewa Indians officially 11 divided into two (2) separate bands, 12 known as the Walpole Island band and 13 the Sarnia band. Through mutual 14 agreement the Sarnia group which later 15 became known as the Chippewas of 16 Sarnia, Aux Sables, Stony Point and 17 Kettle Point Indian band subsequently 18 divided into two (2) distinct bands by 19 an Order in Council dated May the 1st 20 1919. 21 Under the terms of the agreement, the 22 Sarnia band received the Sarnia Indian 23 Reserve and the Chippewas of Kettle and 24 Stony Point retained the Kettle Point 25 Reserve and the Stony Point Reserve.
881 According to this history, the 2 Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point 3 band has, over the years, operated as 4 one (1) band. 5 With respect to your contention that 6 the original appropriation documents 7 and the 1980 agreement were 8 fraudulently created, I reiterate the 9 comments made in my letter of May the 10 20th, 1994 which described the Federal 11 Government's position regarding the 12 return of the lands at Camp Ipperwash. 13 The 1980 Agreement, which was ratified 14 by the Chippewas of the Kettle and 15 Stony Point Indian band through a 16 referendum and by the Crown through an 17 Order in Council, is a legally binding 18 document which obligates the Government 19 of Canada to return the Camp Ipperwash 20 property to the Chippewas of Kettle and 21 Stony Point Indian Band when no longer 22 required for military purposes. 23 Regarding your petition for separation 24 from the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony 25 Point Band, I would like to point out
891 that requests of this nature must be 2 initiated by the Elected Chief and 3 Council. 4 At this time my department has not 5 received such a request from the Chief 6 and Council of the Chippewas of Kettle 7 and Stony Point Band. 8 The Federal Government has a process in 9 place to deal with the division of 10 Bands. Among other things this process 11 requires that the existing Band members 12 and the members of the proposed band 13 explore how their assets (land and 14 money) will be divided. 15 Once an agreement is reached between 16 the two (2) groups, it must then be 17 ratified by the membership of the whole 18 as a band -- of the band as a whole, 19 sorry. 20 Thank you for sharing your concerns. 21 Yours truly, 22 Ronald A. Irwin, PC MP" 23 Q: So it appears then that in addition 24 to occupying the territory, Mr. Dudley George was also 25 involved in -- in letter writing to the Minister?
901 A: Yes. I don't have the original 2 letter of -- to see what he had written but this is -- 3 Q: And it appears in the content of this 4 letter that he was raising his concerns that Stony Point 5 should be recognized as a separate nation? 6 A: It would appear that way, yeah, from 7 the response. 8 Q: Mr. Commissioner, could this letter 9 to Mr. Anthony O'Brian George dated August 24th, 1994, be 10 marked as the next exhibit? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-57, Your Honour. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-57: Letter to Mr. Anthony O'Brian 15 George dated August 24, 1994 16 from Ronald A. Irwin. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 19 Q: Can you tell me what you know about 20 the existence of Stony Point burial grounds? Their 21 locations? 22 A: I know of the one where my father is 23 buried and other members of his family and community. 24 And I'm aware of other burials that I've heard of. I 25 haven't actually attended any burials in -- in the Sand
911 Hills and various locations the -- or sand dunes that -- 2 near -- closer to the water. 3 The one in what's known as Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park. I'm also aware there were other 5 burials. I'd spoken about Rachel Shawkence coming and 6 asking me, pleading with me to try to do something about 7 the unearthing of burials when they were excavating to 8 build a road, Outer Drive. 9 But I don't know the exact specific 10 locations of the graves. I -- I'm just aware that they 11 were interspersed throughout the territory. 12 Q: Now you mentioned burials within the 13 park. How do you know about those burials? Where do you 14 get that information from? 15 A: Just from word of mouth from our -- 16 our people. Up until the actual -- there was 17 documentation where I believe it was Joan Holmes read the 18 report where they finally got some analysis done. And 19 that was just done after Dudley's death that they had not 20 been I feel treated properly prior to that. 21 Q: Can you tell us when you learned of 22 the burials in the park? 23 A: No. I just -- I don't know. I 24 just -- 25 Q: Was it before 1995 -- 1995 or after?
921 A: It was long before. As I said our -- 2 our great grandfather, our grandfather, our Grandpa Bob's 3 father that we call Kimoni (phonetic) used to live there. 4 Q: I'm very close to finishing, Mr. 5 Commissioner. 6 Now I'm not sure if you have these 7 photographs -- this photograph in from of you on the 8 table there? 9 A: No, I don't. But I recognize it, I 10 know. Q: Okay. This was a picture that was 11 provided to Counsel yesterday. I believe that Counsel 12 have a black and white copy, I have a coloured here. Can 13 you identify this photograph? 14 A: That's a photograph of my mother, 15 Christina Melva George in her later years. It -- it is a 16 fairly recent likeness of her. It shows her -- what 17 she's very proud of. She has a -- a red jumper with our 18 four (4) sacred colours embroidered around the hem of it. 19 That's the red, yellow, black and white and she's 20 carrying her hand drum that we use to sing and she's 21 carrying her staff. 22 Q: Do you know when this picture was 23 taken? 24 A: I don't know the exact date, no. 25 Q: Could this picture please be marked
931 as the next exhibit? This is a photograph of Melva 2 George. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-58, Your Honour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-58. 5 Photograph of Melva George. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-58: Photograph of Melva George. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 10 Q: And I believe you've also seen 11 another document which was provided to Counsel yesterday 12 entitled "The Commemorative Medal For The Hundred and 13 Twenty Fifth Anniversary Of The Confederation of Canada." 14 It says it's conferred upon Melva George? 15 A: I believe that was in 1992 and -- 16 Q: So it says 1867 to 1992? 17 A: -- we had a nice celebration for her 18 at the banquet hall in Kettle Point. The Member of 19 Parliament, that was Ralph Ferguson at the time was 20 invited to come and present that. We had invited Chief 21 Tom Bressette to read the tribute to her and I had 22 prepared a tribute to her similar to what I had done for 23 Dudley's birthday. 24 And Chief Tom Bressette didn't show up at 25 -- at the do but our Uncle Robert George read -- read the
941 tribute to her. And it was -- fairly well publicized. 2 It was in the TV media and in the print media as well. 3 And she was very proud of explaining how to sing "Happy 4 Birthday" in Ojibwa to the reporters. So there was some 5 really nice coverage. 6 And I was teaching in London at the time 7 and ran into some -- some band members from Kettle Point 8 and they were really proud. They highly respected my 9 mother and obviously the government did as well to honour 10 her with this community service award. There were medals 11 and -- and a nice presentation given to her at that time. 12 Q: And it does say: 13 "It is in recognition of significant 14 contribution to a compatriot's 15 community and to Canada." 16 A: Yes. 17 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Could this please be 18 marked as the next exhibit? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-59, Your Honour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-59. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-59: Presentation in recognition 23 of Melva George's significant 24 contribution to a 25 compatriot's community and to
951 Canada." 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 4 Q: And finally, Ms. Simon, could you 5 just tell me how long does it take to drive from the 6 intersection of Army Camp Road and Highway 21 to the 7 intersection -- to the -- the telephone where you went to 8 make a phone call on the night of September 6th, 1995? 9 Driving at the speed limit? 10 A: I -- I think it would be less than 11 five (5) minutes. 12 Q: Thank you very much for all of your 13 testimony. Those are all my questions for you today. 14 A: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Worme? 17 MR. DONALD WORME: I do not, Mr. 18 Commissioner. 19 I guess we can proceed in one (1) of -- 20 one (1) of two (2) ways. If you wanted to proceed with 21 the next witness, we'd probably need a short break in 22 order to get that prepared and have the Witness prepared 23 and allow my associate, Ms. Vella to -- to get organized. 24 Or alternatively we could break for lunch 25 now and -- and commence right after lunch. So we're in
961 your hands on that, Mr. Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is Ms. Vella 3 ready to go? Do you know that? 4 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. She could be 5 ready to go in about ten (10) minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 7 should take a short break and continue. It's a bit early 8 for our lunch break and I would like to keep -- keep 9 moving. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So why don't 12 we take a short five (5) or ten (10) minute break. Five 13 (5) minutes. Just five (5) minutes to give Ms. Vella a 14 chance to set up and then we'll continue til about one 15 o'clock and then break for lunch. Is that all right? 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you very much, 17 sir. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for five (5) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 12:27 p.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 12:33 p.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry has now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
971 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission calls as 2 its next witness, Marlin Simon. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Simon. 4 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Simon, do you prefer 5 to swear on the Bible, affirm, or use an alternate oath? 6 MR. MARLIN SIMON: Affirm. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Affirm? 8 MR. MARLIN SIMON: Yeah. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I believe with an 10 alternate oath, Mr. Registrar? 11 THE REGISTRAR: With an alternate oath, 12 sir? Which one? 13 MR. MARLIN SIMON: I don't know. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With the eagle feather. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Eagle feather. Do you 16 have an eagle feather with you, sir? 17 MR. MARLIN SIMON: Yes, I do. 18 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, thank you. 19 20 MARLIN DOUGLAS SIMON, JR., Sworn: 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. Can you 23 state your name in full please. 24 THE WITNESS: Marlin Douglas Simon, Jr. 25 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
981 2 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 3 Q: Good afternoon. 4 A: Good afternoon. 5 Q: Can you please tell the Commission 6 what your date of birth is, Mr. Simon? 7 A: September 13th, 1973. 8 Q: What is your current residence? 9 A: It's 9356 Army Camp Road. Which is 10 the former Army base, Ipperwash. 11 Q: Thank you. What is your marital 12 status? 13 A: I'm single. 14 Q: Do you have any children? 15 A: Yes, I do. 16 Q: What are their names? 17 A: Hayley and Ashley. 18 Q: Do you have any siblings? 19 A: I have a brother Kevin and that's it. 20 Q: And what are the names of your 21 parent? 22 A: Marcia Simon; I believe she was just 23 on and my father's name is Marlin Simon. 24 Q: What are the names of your mother's 25 parents?
991 A: My mother's parents was Dan George 2 Sr. and Melva George. 3 Q: And the name of your father's parents 4 if you know? 5 A: My father's parents, I'm not sure on 6 his father but his mother's name was Edith Simon. 7 Q: Okay. Did any of your relatives live 8 at the former Stony Point Reserve at or before the time 9 of appropriation in 1942? 10 A: Yes, they did. 11 Q: Which ones did? 12 A: My grandfather, Daniel. 13 Q: Okay. And just for clarification 14 when we refer to the former Stony Point Reserve, we're 15 talking about the land that was appropriated by the 16 government in 1942 for the Camp Ipperwash property -- or 17 base, excuse me. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Now your grandfather Daniel Ray 20 George was the man who was buried at the Stony Point 21 cemetery in 1990? 22 A: Yes, he is. 23 Q: And I understand that your 24 grandmother, Melva George, is now deceased. 25 A: Yeah.
1001 Q: Where is she buried? 2 A: She is buried right next to him. 3 Q: Okay. Did your grandfather ever talk 4 to you about the Stony Point appropriation? 5 A: Yes, he did. 6 Q: What did you learn from him? 7 A: Well, that the government took it for 8 -- to build a training base and then they were supposed 9 to get it back at the end of the war. 10 Q: Okay. Did you grandfather ever 11 reminisce to you about his life on Stony Point? 12 A: Yes, he did. 13 Q: And what did you learn from him in 14 that respect? 15 A: I don't know. Just the -- had to 16 work for everything that they had and it was a lot 17 tougher back in those days. 18 Q: You know approximately how many acres 19 your father had at the reserve? Sorry, not -- your 20 grandfather? Excuse me. 21 A: Grandfather -- no, I'm not too sure. 22 Forty (40) or something like that, whatever. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Or -- he was supposed to get it, I 25 guess. I'm not sure.
1011 Q: All right. Did your grandfather tell 2 you where he went to live after the government 3 appropriated the Stony Point reserve? 4 A: Yeah. He said that -- what was it? 5 I think he had to go to work and he worked at a lumber 6 camp down by Petrolia somewhere around there, so that's 7 where he stayed. 8 Q: At some point, did he go to Kettle 9 Point? 10 A: Yeah, I believe so, after a while. 11 After my grandfather and grandmother were married and 12 then she bought a little chunk of land down there. 13 Q: Okay. And did your grandfather speak 14 to you about his life while at the Kettle Point reserve 15 in contrast with his life at the Stony Point reserve? 16 A: Yeah. He -- he pretty much said that 17 they weren't really treated that fairly. They were, 18 like, viewed as outsiders. 19 Q: Where were they viewed as outsiders? 20 A: At Kettle Point. 21 Q: Okay. And where did you grow up? 22 A: Where did I grow up? All over the 23 place pretty much. London, Kettle Point. Mostly Kettle 24 Point. 25 Q: All right. And how long and for what
1021 period of time did you live at Kettle Point reserve? 2 A: I'd say from at least -- whenever I 3 was about kindergarten, pretty much all the way through 4 school. 5 Q: Okay. And can you describe how you 6 were treated while you lived there? 7 A: Let's see. I don't know. I was just 8 with -- I don't know. It was kind of different or 9 something. I was like from another band when I was born 10 -- registered at another band and then moved down there 11 later on after my parents split up. 12 And then -- I don't know. It was just 13 kind of harder to get switched over -- brought over to 14 the Kettle Point reserve and then viewed as a member of 15 that reserve. 16 Q: Okay. Now did your grandfather pass 17 on any traditions or practices to you in relation to 18 burial grounds? 19 A: In relation to burial grounds? I 20 don't know, not really. He just told me about stories 21 about where there was burial grounds inside of the camp 22 and ... 23 Q: Can you expand on that for us, 24 please? 25 A: Can I expand on it? Let's see, he
1031 said that -- well, there was a -- one that was marked and 2 it was supposed to be taken care of right inside the 3 military base. And he said that one was pretty much used 4 for a back stop for -- for -- let's see, military 5 training and stuff like that. 6 And then he said there was another one 7 that was kind of down in the park. It was right inside 8 the park. 9 Q: All right. Now your grandfather -- 10 you testified that your grandfather, Daniel Ray George, 11 was buried at the Stony Point reserve. 12 Can you tell us where in relation to the 13 barracks that burial took place? 14 A: I'd say it -- in relation to the 15 barracks, I'd say it's like about dead centre of the 16 whole military base. It's like right in the centre. 17 Q: And Mr. Millar has put on the stand - 18 - on the screen behind you, a diagram of the -- the 19 Ipperwash Military Reserve. 20 Can you, using that diagram, show us 21 approximately where the burial site is? 22 A: Where it is? Okay. (INDICATING) 23 Right where this arrow is, I guess. 24 Q: All right. Now you have in front of 25 you, also, that same map. Perhaps you could get that
1041 out. 2 A: All right. 3 Q: Just for the record, the map that 4 we're looking at was already tendered as an exhibit as P- 5 40. Would you kindly -- do you have a pen there? A 6 writing pen? 7 A: Yes, I do. 8 Q: Perhaps you could mark the approximate 9 location of the burial ground by an X and number 1. Have 10 you done that for us? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. Commissioner, I'd like to 13 make this map the next exhibit, P-60, and I won't hand it 14 up to the Registrar quite yet because there will be, 15 perhaps, more markings placed on it. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-60: Map of the Ipperwash Military 19 Reserve & Ipperwash Provincial 20 Park as marked up by Witness 21 Marlin Simon. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: Did you attend at the burial? 25 A: For?
1051 Q: For Daniel George, your grandfather? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: All right. Do you recall what the 4 date of that burial was? 5 A: I'm not sure. It was in October 1990. 6 Q: All right. And had you ever attended 7 at the Stony Point Cemetery before? 8 A: Have I ever attended there? 9 Q: Before this burial occurred? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Did you attach any significance to 12 your grandfather being buried in this particular 13 location? 14 A: Did I attach any significance? 15 Q: Yes. Did it have any meaning for you? 16 A: I just thought it was pretty good 17 because he was always talking about, he wanted to go home 18 and then he was the first one that was allowed to be 19 buried there since the military and Canadian government 20 took it over. 21 Q: And how did you -- 22 A: That was pretty special. 23 Q: -- how did you feel about that? 24 A: It was pretty special. It was -- 25 Q: To your knowledge, did your family
1061 have to obtain permission in order for this burial to 2 occur? 3 A: Yes, I do think so. 4 Q: And whose permission? 5 A: I'm not sure. 6 Q: All right. Were you supposed to 7 obtain permission every time you wished to visit your 8 grandfather's burial site? 9 A: Yeah, I guess. Yeah. They had -- the 10 whole thing was fenced off and then you had to get 11 through -- go through a main gate to get there. 12 Q: This is the main gate at the 13 intersection, more or less, of Army Camp Road and Highway 14 21? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. And how did that make you 17 feel having to get permission before you could visit that 18 site? 19 A: I don't know. It was kind of rough -- 20 kind of a hassle. 21 Q: Now, what -- what did you do 22 immediately following your grandfather's burial? 23 A: Immediately following? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: I'm not sure, we just went for a ride
1071 around and viewed the military base. 2 Q: Okay. And at some time thereafter did 3 you camp in or around that location? 4 A: No, it was, I believe -- I was camping 5 there before. Probably about a month, two (2) months 6 before. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: They had like a little demonstration 9 right inside the military base. This was when Oka was 10 going on. 11 Q: All right. And you camped there, did 12 you say? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And for how long? 15 A: For a week. 16 Q: And can you show -- 17 A: Maybe two (2) weeks. 18 Q: Can you show us on the map again, 19 approximately where you camped. 20 A: All right. You're going to have to 21 slide it up a little bit more. It would be right in this 22 area down here, by the hospital. Where the hospital and 23 the ... 24 Q: All right. So you're pointing to 25 just outside of the barrack area --
1081 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- inside Highway 21 of the military 3 base? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And would you once again look at the 6 map in front of you -- 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: It says P-60 and mark with an X 2, 9 the approximate location that you camped in 1990 for 10 approximately a week or two (2). 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Have you done that now? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Thank you. Now what -- what the 17 purpose of this demonstration? 18 A: Just pretty much to draw attention to 19 the fact that there was a land claims going on down here 20 and to show solidarity with the people in Gunasatagi and 21 Gunawagi (phonetic). 22 Q: And approximately how many people 23 participated in this demonstration that lasted for a week 24 or so? 25 A: I'd say a dozen to twenty (20),
1091 around there somewhere. 2 Q: All right. And where were these 3 people from? 4 A: Let's see. Kettle Point. Let's see. 5 There was people from Tobermeric, Tobermorey or Cape 6 Croaker (phonetic), I guess, Cape Croaker around there. 7 Saugine. 8 Q: And at some point did you finish that 9 demonstration? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And what caused the termination of 12 the demonstration? 13 A: I'm not sure there was a -- guys that 14 were acting as the leaders in the demonstration had a 15 meeting with the military and some other people there and 16 let's see, there was the -- promised or they -- yeah, I 17 guess they made a promise to start dealing with the land 18 claim, so everybody just siad, all right, that was 19 acceptable and we just packed up and took off. 20 Q: Now is this something you have direct 21 knowledge of or are you just telling us what someone else 22 told you? 23 A: Let's see. It was -- was brought out 24 at a meeting that was at the occupation and -- I guess. 25 I don't know, it would be direct knowledge or somebody
1101 come and told us. 2 Q: Fair enough. Okay. Did you receive 3 any documents from the military in relation to the 4 occupation? 5 A: In relation? Yes, I did. 6 Q: What did you receive? 7 A: I got a letter from a military 8 banning me from ever setting foot inside the Ipperwash 9 military reserve again. 10 Q: And do you have a copy of this 11 letter? 12 A: No, I don't. 13 Q: All right. Did you leave thereafter? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. During the course of this 16 demonstration, was there any acts of physical aggression? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you see anyone in the occupation 19 with guns or firearms? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you have any encounters with the 22 members of the Ontario Provincial Police during the 23 course of that occupation? 24 A: No, I never. 25 Q: Did you have any direct contact with
1111 any of the military personnel during the course of that 2 occupation? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Was this the first time that you had 5 participated in a demonstration in relation to the former 6 Stony Point Reserve? 7 A: No, it wasn't. 8 Q: When did you first start 9 participating in such activities. 10 A: I'd be pretty young. Probably in the 11 late 70's, I guess. 12 Q: In the late 1970s? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you were born in 1973? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. And who did you 17 participate with during the course of your -- your early 18 days? 19 A: My parents -- or my mother, anyways -- 20 my mother and grandparents. 21 Q: Okay and do you know approximately how 22 many of these activities you participated in in the -- 23 the late 70's and 80's? 24 A: It's -- not too sure. I'd say, well, 25 five (5) anyways. At least five (5).
1121 Q: All right. 2 A: Five (5) -- six (6). 3 Q: And can you tell us what type of 4 activities you participated in? 5 A: Let's see, just more or less along the 6 lines of protest. We'd kind of walk around with signs 7 and -- outside the entrance. 8 Q: Outside the entrance of -- 9 A: The military base and along the 10 highway. 11 Q: And did you hand out any pamphlets as 12 part of these demonstrations? 13 A: Sometimes, yes. 14 Q: All right. During the course of these 15 demonstrations did you ever witness any acts of physical 16 aggression by members of your group? 17 A: No, I never. 18 Q: And did -- did other young people 19 participate in these demonstrations? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Did you ever witness any of your 22 fellow aboriginal protesters or demonstrators carrying 23 guns during the course of these demonstrations? 24 A: No. 25 Q: To your knowledge, was anyone ever
1131 arrested by members of the Ontario Provincial Police for 2 participating in these demonstrations that you were 3 involved in? 4 A: No, I don't think so. 5 Q: Is it fair to say then, that with 6 respect to the demonstrations that you participated in in 7 the late 70's and 1980s, that there were no acts of 8 violence that you witnessed? 9 A: Yeah, that's correct. 10 Q: What was the next event of protest or 11 demonstration which you directly participated in with 12 respect to the former Stony Point Reserve? 13 A: The next one? I guess it would be 14 whenever we went in in 1993 -- May 6th. 15 Q: In 1993? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Do you recall the date? 18 A: May 6th. 19 Q: Thank you. And were you one of the 20 original people who entered onto the Camp Ipperwash 21 lands? 22 A: Yeah, I guess, yeah. 23 Q: How did you find -- 24 A: Well, I wasn't one of the original 25 ones but it was that day. I come later on that day.
1141 Q: Okay. And how did you first find out 2 about then, the fact that some individuals had entered 3 onto the Camp Ipperwash lands? 4 A: My brother was going to school in 5 London and I was at his place having supper with him that 6 night and we were watching the news and we seen it on the 7 news, so, right after we got done eating, we jumped in 8 his truck and went down there to go see what was going on 9 and then I ended up staying there ever since. 10 Q: Okay. Tell us your reasons for 11 deciding to move onto this land. 12 A: Well, it was pretty much where my 13 family's from and I wasn't really doing anything at the 14 time. I thought it would pretty much help out the cause 15 or whatever. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. And looking at the map 17 behind you which is still on the screen, can you tell me 18 where approximately you first entered the land at Camp 19 Ipperwash? 20 A: Yeah. Let's see. This is Jericho 21 Road right there. They had a camp. It's right -- okay, 22 there's the creek. Let's see, the first camp, I guess, 23 was right in here somewhere. It was right around here 24 anyways, this area. 25 Q: Okay.
1151 A: In at Jericho Road. 2 Q: Jericho Road. Is that an internal 3 road going from Highway 21, more or less? 4 A: Yeah. It's going from Highway 21 down 5 -- down the other way. 6 Q: Okay, so how -- did you just drive in? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Tell me how you got in? 9 A: How did -- we just come along this 10 road and we just kind of parked here and jumped the 11 fence. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Because there used to be a driveway or 14 something right there, I think. 15 Q: Perhaps you would look at the map in 16 front of you, which is Exhibit P-60, and with -- mark X 3 17 for the approximate location that you entered the Camp 18 Ipperwash lands on May 6th, 1993. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Have you done that for us now? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you. Now when you arrived on 25 May 6th, can you tell us from your best recollection who
1161 was already there? 2 A: Who was already there? I'd say -- 3 let's see, I seen Maynard T. and -- Maynard T. George and 4 Clifford, let's see, Rose Manning was there and a lot of 5 their family. 6 Q: And Clifford George did you say? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Now did everyone stay over the course 9 of that first winter, that would be the winter of '93/94? 10 A: Did everyone stay? 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: Not really. 13 Q: Who were the individuals who stayed 14 throughout that first winter? 15 A: That first winter? I see there was 16 Clifford -- Clifford, Dudley, let's see, Dave George, Joe 17 George, me, Warren George, my brother, and let's see, I 18 think my uncle stayed with us too quite a bit, Glenn. 19 Q: Which uncle? 20 A: Glenn George. 21 Q: All right. And perhaps I should've 22 asked you a little earlier, in May -- on May 6th of 1993, 23 did you have any encounters with members of the military 24 or the Ontario Provincial Police with respect to your -- 25 your camping activities?
1171 A: Did I myself have any? 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: Not really. Just -- there was like a 4 acting chief-in-council for the people that were doing 5 the occupation and they were meeting with the military 6 and the police or whatever. 7 Q: Let's just -- was that -- were they 8 in a place on May 6th, the first day? 9 A: Pardon? Were they -- 10 Q: Were they in place? 11 A: There was some kind of a little thing 12 in place but we had like an election and -- thing later 13 on that summer. 14 Q: Okay. I'm just focussing on the 15 first day. I'm wondering whether you met with any 16 resistence on the first day that you entered the camp? 17 A: The first day, let's see. I never. 18 Not myself. 19 Q: All right. Okay. Mr. Commissioner, 20 it is one o'clock. I know we've just gotten into this 21 but perhaps we can break for the lunch at this time 22 please? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 24 One o'clock, do you want to break for lunch until 2:15. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands
1181 adjourned until 2:15 p.m. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 1:01 p.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 2:15 p.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: All right. Just before the lunch 13 break you told us who stayed over from the group who 14 camped over the winter time and I'd like to know whether 15 more people arrived at the camp to live the following 16 summer. That would be the summer of 1994. 17 A: Yes, I do believe. In the spring 18 time. I'm not sure if Pearl was living there that winter 19 or not but I know that in the spring time a lot of her 20 family come back and they were in. 21 Q: You're speaking of Pearl George's -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- family? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And is it fair to say that
1191 there were -- there was a larger population living at the 2 site in the summer time than the winter time? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. And can you recall who 5 stayed over the second winter, that's the winter of 1994 6 and '95? 7 A: Stayed the second winter? Pretty 8 much the same -- same people. 9 Q: The same individuals you spoke of 10 before? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: So Joe George? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And Dudley George? 15 A: Dave, Clifford, Dudley, myself, my 16 brother Kevin and Dudley and Warren. 17 Q: And did you also say Waldo? 18 A: Yeah, that's Warren. 19 Q: And just -- is Waldo the nickname -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- for Warren George? 22 A: Yes, it is. 23 Q: Okay. Did the community that moved 24 onto the camp Ipperwash grounds between '93 and July of 25 '95, did they set up an internal government structure?
1201 A: Yes, they did. 2 Q: And can you describe that for us? 3 A: Can I describe it? Let's see. It 4 consisted of a Chief and I'm not sure how many 5 councillors. About six (6) councillors maybe. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: That was pretty much -- that's pretty 8 much it. 9 Q: And was the Chief and the band 10 councillors, were they appointed or elected? 11 A: I think they were appointed at first 12 and we had like a little election later on in the summer 13 of '93. 14 Q: All right. And who was the first 15 Chief of the community? 16 A: Oh jeez, I'm not even sure. 17 Q: All right. Do you recall who -- any 18 -- the identities of any of the Chiefs or councillors? 19 A: Let's see. I think it was Carl 20 George was the Chief for a little while there. 21 Q: And is Carl George also known as Carl 22 Tozma (phonetic)? 23 A: Yeah, something like that. I'm not 24 sure. 25 Q: Okay. And do you recall any of the
1211 councillors who were either appointed or elected at the 2 community? 3 A: No, I can't recall. It was all ... 4 Q: All right. And what was the role of 5 the Chief and council within the community in the general 6 way? 7 A: Was the role? I don't know. Just 8 trying to figure out which routes and what kind of 9 strategies we'd use to pretty much go after reclaiming 10 the territory. 11 Q: And when you say "reclaiming the 12 territory" what territory are you referring to? 13 A: The Ipperwash Military Reserve. 14 Q: Did your community adopt an Objibwe 15 name? 16 A: Yes it did. 17 Q: And what was that? What is that 18 name? 19 A: Aazhoodena. 20 Q: Could you give us a rough English 21 translation for that? 22 A: A rough English translation? 23 Translation would be mean something along the lines of 24 the next town, the next town over, over there, or 25 something like that.
1221 Q: All right. And how was that -- do 2 you know how that name was selected? 3 A: I don't know. It was just -- that's 4 what it was called all -- ever since people started 5 living there I guess. Like way back in the 1800's. 6 Q: And what's the source of your 7 information that -- that this name goes back that far? 8 A: The source of my information would be 9 my Uncle Abe George. 10 Q: Abraham George? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And was your Uncle Abraham 13 George formally a residence of the Stony Point Reserve? 14 A: Yes, he was. 15 Q: Now I would like you to look at the 16 map behind you again, please. It's Exhibit P-60. 17 And I wonder if you would point out on 18 that map the locations, the approximate locations of the 19 winter camps for you and the other individuals you named 20 who camped over the wintertime? 21 A: Hmm, hmm. 22 Q: Sorry. And I just ask you to -- 23 we'll start with the first winter -- 24 A: The first winter? 25 Q: -- which is '93, '94?
1231 A: Okay. We set up kind of like of a 2 homestead camp for my Uncle Hamster was right in here. 3 Q: And -- and is Hamster a nickname? 4 A: Abra -- yeah. It's a nickname for 5 Abe George. 6 Q: Abraham George. Okay. And just show 7 me again where you're pointing? 8 A: It was right around there. We set up 9 a homestead camp for him and let's see -- 10 Q: And I'm sorry. Can you just describe 11 that location for us? 12 A: It's right on the edge of the -- the 13 classification range. It's a big six hundred (600) yard 14 range. 15 Q: All right. Closer -- 16 A: That shooting range. It's -- 17 Q: Closer to Highway 21? 18 A: Yep. And it was just on a -- I guess 19 the left-hand side of it. Where we stayed during the 20 first winter. There was a trailer that was donated and 21 that was just John -- it was just set up right here and 22 then Dudley -- Dudley ended up living in there, fixing it 23 up. Dudley and Warren. 24 Q: And that looks like it's just to the 25 right of your Uncle Abe's trailer?
1241 A: Yeah. It was like right on -- right 2 on that rifle range. And that's where we stayed, me and 3 my Uncle Glenn and Warren and Dudley. And there was 4 another little spot right back in here where Dave George 5 and Joe George set up their camp. And my brother had a 6 little trailer or something back in here too. 7 Q: So that's just to the north of the 8 site for your Uncle Abraham? 9 A: Yeah. And Clifford -- the first 10 summer -- let's see where was Clifford? The first 11 winter--yeah I think Clifford was over here. 12 Q: Now you're pointing at an area that's 13 much closer to the built-up area? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: But still along that internal road 16 that runs parallel to the Highway 21? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: All right. So from the looks of it, 19 the majority of you stayed in more or less the same area 20 of land and Clifford George was a little bit further away 21 from you? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And can you tell me what -- what your 24 accommodations were like? 25 A: They're kind of rough.
1251 Q: Kind of -- 2 A: Pretty rough I would say. In the 3 trailer that we were staying in with Dudley right in here 4 was a- there was all kinds of holes in it and the roof 5 leaked. I don't even think it was setup very straight. 6 It was kind of like in a big shape of a banana almost. 7 But we tried to close it off as best we 8 could. We put a big wood stove in there and everybody 9 pitched in and cut wood and we survived I guess. 10 Q: Now was there any running water to 11 your trailer? 12 A: Oh no. No. 13 Q: How about electricity? 14 A: No electricity either. 15 Q: Any telephones? 16 A: Nope. 17 Q: And what were your main sources of 18 heat in the winter? 19 A: Wood stoves. 20 Q: Is it fair to describe from what 21 you've said that -- that life in the winter was a 22 communal effort? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Did your community at Aazhoodena have 25 general meetings from time to time over the approximate
1261 two (2) year period? 2 A: Yes, it did. 3 Q: All right. And where were those 4 meetings generally held? 5 A: Let's see, the first summer we went in 6 there, there was a bunch of building materials that were 7 donated and everybody kind of pitched in and we built a 8 little -- I think it was a church at first but it was 9 more like a meeting place so we called it the Argument 10 Hall -- 11 Q: Mmm hmm. 12 A: -- and that was right -- right here. 13 Q: And what -- could you just describe 14 what that place is? The line? 15 A: It's right in between -- well there's 16 a pistol range there and then there's a popup target 17 range over here and it's like right in the midst of all 18 the old ranges. 19 Q: All right. Again, it -- was it 20 located very close to the internal road running parallel 21 to Highway 21? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. Now, I should have asked 24 you to do this before, but the map that's in front of 25 you --
1271 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- the military reserve. Would you 3 mark with an 'X', number 1 -- I'm sorry, not one (1), are 4 we up to three (3)? 5 A: Yes, we are. No, we're up to four 6 (4). 7 Q: Four (4) -- X number 4. Mark the spot 8 where Dudley George and those individuals, approximately 9 had their trailers that first winter. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And with X5 -- have you done that for 14 me? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: You're probably ahead of me -- X5, 17 mark where your brother -- 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: -- was. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Approximately. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: And X number six (6), where Clifford 24 George was located, approximately. 25 A: All right.
1281 Q: And X7 where Argument Hall is roughly 2 located. 3 A: X7. 4 Q: All right? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Thank you. Now, what types of -- for 7 what types of reasons would meetings be called at 8 Argument Hall? 9 A: What kind of reasons would there be? 10 I don't know, whenever some kind of new developments come 11 along or the Government would make an announcement or, 12 let's see, even birthdays and stuff like that. People 13 would go there and have a meeting or -- 14 Q: And did the -- any members of the 15 Ontario Provincial Police ever attend at these meetings, 16 to your knowledge? 17 A: Yes, they did, a couple -- a few of 18 them. 19 Q: All right. And do you recall the 20 names of any of the police officers who would attend from 21 time to time? 22 A: I just remember Speck. 23 Q: Officer Speck? 24 A: Yeah, because he was always plain 25 clothes and there was always usually him and a uniformed
1291 officer, too. 2 Q: All right. Just so that I understand, 3 did you say Officer Speck would be in plain clothes -- 4 A: Yep. 5 Q: -- but he would often be accompanied 6 by another police officer uniformed? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. We do have to make sure 9 that your -- your voice is -- 10 A: All right. 11 Q: -- loud so we can all hear you. Thank 12 you. 13 Did members of the military ever attend 14 at these meetings, to your knowledge? 15 A: Let's see. I don't think they ever 16 did. No. 17 Q: Okay. Now, when the police officers 18 would attend at the meetings at Argument Hall, did they 19 ever wear any type of sidearms or carry any guns into 20 the -- 21 A: Yes, they did. The Elder -- or some 22 of the Elders and a lot of the community members, I do 23 believe they did confront the officers in one of these 24 meetings and ask them -- and ask them if they -- like 25 for future meetings and stuff like that, not to bring
1301 their weapons. 2 Q: And was that request respected or 3 honoured? 4 A: I'm not sure. I don't think it was. 5 Q: Okay. Did anyone from your community 6 attend at these meetings, to your knowledge and in your 7 presence, wearing guns or rifles? 8 A: Anyone from my -- from our side of 9 the...No, there was no -- nobody ever. 10 Q: Okay. You're laughing, why? 11 A: Just, you know, it seems kind of 12 funny. 13 Q: Okay, fair enough. You indicated 14 that some of the Elders made a request that side arms not 15 be worn to the meetings. 16 Can you just explain to us how it is that 17 a person becomes designated as an Elder by the community? 18 A: How a person becomes an Elder? 19 Q: Hmm mmm. 20 A: Let's see. I'm not sure. It was -- 21 would -- well, if they've got some kind of knowledge, 22 certain ceremonies or different kind of things they -- 23 may become an Elder. 24 Q: Okay. And is an Elder someone who 25 appoints themselves to become an Elder or is it something
1311 that is conferred or earned by them? 2 A: Something, I guess, that would be 3 earned. They'd have to pretty much know a lot of stuff 4 like know everything about ceremony or something they 5 were performing. 6 Q: And what role did Elders play at 7 Aazhoodena between '93 and July of '95, generally 8 speaking? 9 A: What kind of a role? I don't know. 10 They would just kind of offer insight into the different 11 ceremonies and stuff that we'd do. They'd open up the 12 meetings or whatever with prayers or whatever. 13 Q: All right. Were there ever any 14 hostile or violent confrontations between members from 15 your community and members from the OPP at the meetings 16 that you attended? 17 A: No. 18 Q: How often did these meetings 19 generally take place over the course, say, of a year? 20 A: How often? Usually about maybe once 21 a month or so. At least once a month. Depending on what 22 was going on or -- they'd be more frequent. 23 Q: And to your knowledge, were members 24 from the OPP invited to these meetings or did they just 25 show up?
1321 A: I think they were invited to a couple 2 of them. 3 Q: Okay. And were you present at any of 4 the meetings at which OPP officers attended? 5 A: Yes, I was. 6 Q: Okay. And can you recall what topics 7 were discussed at these meetings that -- that they would 8 be attending? 9 A: What topics? I don't know. 10 Something would usually happen and there would be 11 complaints against members of the community and the 12 police wouldn't really know who they'd be going after, so 13 they kind of asked -- asked the community to come and 14 have a meeting. 15 Q: So, for example, if there was a 16 complaint made by someone from the military on the base 17 against someone from your community, the OPP might come 18 and investigate and they would come to these meetings to 19 ask questions? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. During the course of these 22 meetings, in the presence of the OPP, was the issue of 23 the position of the people at -- being at the Camp 24 Ipperwash ever discussed? 25 In other words the propriety of you
1331 staying there, was that ever a topic that was discussed 2 in your presence? 3 A: No, I don't think so. 4 Q: In your presence were requests made 5 by the -- the community of the OPP, for example, advising 6 them that they -- sorry, advising the OPP that -- that 7 they had the intention to stay there? 8 A: Yeah. Well they pretty much knew 9 that. That's what -- we weren't going to go anywhere 10 and -- 11 Q: All right. Did anyone from the OPP 12 ever advise you or your community in your presence that 13 they had to leave or shouldn't be there? 14 A: No. 15 Q: In your presence, did anyone from the 16 military ever advise you or members of your community 17 that you should leave the grounds or that you shouldn't 18 be there? 19 A: Not in my presence, but yeah, there 20 was -- I forget what the guy's -- that military guy's 21 name was but he come and kind of served an eviction 22 notice once. 23 Q: Do you know when, approximately, that 24 event occurred? 25 A: Probably in June -- June '93.
1341 Q: All right. And did you see that 2 eviction notice? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Do you recall what it said? 5 A: No, not really. 6 Q: And what was the response of the 7 community to that eviction notice? 8 A: Pretty much everybody was kind of 9 packed up and was ready to go and then there was, like, a 10 bunch of elders that kind of said, No, we ain't going to 11 go. No, we don't want to go this time. We're here to 12 stay. So, everybody kind of packed -- unpacked and set 13 back up again. 14 Q: All right. So the -- the elders 15 advised that they weren't leaving and then you decided 16 therefore, you weren't leaving. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And did the military or members from 19 the Ontario Provincial Police follow up with you to 20 attempt to enforce that eviction notice? 21 A: I think there was a bailiff or 22 something come along one (1) time with some kind of a 23 property act thing like -- let's see -- out of a law book 24 or something. He showed up with this property act and 25 kind of -- give it to -- I forget who it was, either
1351 Maynard T. or -- Maynard T. George or Carl George -- gave 2 it to them. 3 And then he was -- they were kind of -- 4 ended up giving something -- they served something back 5 to the military, anyways, and then kind of never went 6 after the OPP and the military kind of just backed off. 7 Q: All right. And are you aware of what 8 document was handed over by the community to -- to the 9 bailiff? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I'm not sure. 13 Q: Do you know what the name of the 14 bailiff was? 15 A: Scott Ewart. 16 Q: And when did that event happen, 17 approximately? 18 A: It was probably in June '93. 19 Q: All right. To your knowledge, did 20 members from your Chief and Council have meetings from 21 time to time with the military between 1993 and July of 22 '95? 23 A: Yes, they did. 24 Q: All right. And do you know what the 25 purpose of those meetings were?
1361 A: Not really, just more or less -- to 2 establish a protocol or something. 3 Q: A protocol as between -- 4 A: For dealing with each other. 5 Q: So, working out the terms of a 6 cohabitation? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And did you receive reports from the 9 Chief and Council with respect to these meetings from 10 time to time? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. Mr. Simon, do you engage 13 in any Ojibwa traditional practices? 14 A: Every so often. 15 Q: All right. And did you engage in 16 these practices between 1993 and 1995 while living at the 17 Aazhoodena community? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. Would you describe for the 20 Commissioner, what types of general practices you 21 personally engaged in during that time period and explain 22 their significance to you. 23 A: Kind of, well, there was a lot of 24 sweats -- sweats went on. Just go and -- well you have a 25 sweat to pretty much purify yourself or clear up
1371 whatever's bothering you and just get yourself ready for 2 -- I don't know -- whatever. 3 Let's see, there was a peace tree ceremony 4 that was done. That was pretty much, around June to June 5 of '93 August, June, July, somewhere in that summer 6 anyway. 7 Q: June of '93 approximately did you 8 say? 9 A: Yeah. June, July, somewhere around 10 there. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: The peace tree ceremony. It was 13 where we -- well it's like burying the hatchet I guess. 14 We -- we made a little hatchet thing and then buried it 15 underneath that tree so that everybody of the community 16 would have an understanding that this was a peaceful -- 17 peaceful kind of thing that we weren't violent. That it 18 was, I don't know, just -- just peaceful I guess. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Just to get rid of -- 21 Q: And do you know whether members of 22 the military observed this ceremony? 23 A: Members of the military? I don't 24 think they did. They might have drove by or something 25 while we were doing it.
1381 Q: How about members of the OPP? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. Who led that ceremony? 4 A: Who led it? I think it was a Lorne 5 Jacobs. 6 Q: And who is Lorne Jacobs? 7 A: From -- he's from Raven (phonetic) 8 town. Another reserve down on the Thames River. 9 Q: And did you personally participate in 10 that ceremony? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: Do you recall who else attended at 13 that ceremony? 14 A: Who else attended at that ceremony? 15 Geez, everybody that was around there at the time in the 16 community. 17 Q: And did you -- were you also -- your 18 mother testified about a sacred fire being lit. Do you 19 know anything about that? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Were you involved in that ceremony? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Can you tell us when that was 24 approximately and what your role was in that ceremony? 25 A: The sacred fire? Let's see -- sacred
1391 fires just there for -- a place where people offered 2 their prayers and tobacco and whatever their offerings. 3 And my role in it was the fire keeper. Go out and cut 4 wood, keep the fire going and just look after the grounds 5 around where the fire is -- 6 Q: Mmm hmm. 7 A: -- and I believe we had that one 8 going for six (6) months or somewhere along there. 9 Q: Okay. And were there other fire 10 keepers who assisted you? 11 A: Oh, yeah. 12 Q: And can you provide us with some of 13 those names? 14 A: Those names? It would be Dave and 15 Joe George, my brother Kevin, Dudley, Warren, Glenn. 16 There was others from Raven (phonetic) town that would 17 come up and help keep it or take care of it on weekends 18 or whatever. People would come from I don't know. If 19 they couldn't be there during the week then they'd come 20 along on the weekend and help out 21 Q: Mmm hmm. And is this something that 22 -- that had to be attended to twenty-four (24) hours a 23 day? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Did the community have feasts from
1401 time to time during this time period? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what kinds of feasts? 4 A: What kinds of feasts? 5 Q: Mmm hmm. 6 A: I'm not sure. There was some for 7 some newborn babies and there's feasts for, let's see 8 there was, for spirits, people have feasts for spirits 9 and stuff like that. 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: Just all kinds of different reasons 12 for having feasts. 13 Q: All right. And you say feasts for 14 spirits. Are you referring to the burial ground areas? 15 A: Yeah. Well, their relatives or 16 whatever that's gone on. 17 Q: All right. And did you also 18 personally participate in -- in feasts for the spirits of 19 your ancestors? 20 A: Yes. Yes. 21 Q: And can you just tell me what that 22 involved for you? 23 A: What it involved for me? I don't 24 know. Just help cook or something whenever and just have 25 a big feast.
1411 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Did you use 2 tobacco at all in the course of this ceremony? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And just tell us what you did with 5 the tobacco? 6 A: I don't know. Just take tobacco in 7 your hand and then say your prayer and then whenever 8 you're done you put it in the fire and it's supposed to - 9 - the tobacco's suppose to carry your prayer up to the 10 eagles or whatever and then they take it up to the 11 Creator. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you. Who did you learn 13 these practices from? 14 A: I don't know. My family I guess. 15 Just kind of always knew them. 16 Q: Fair enough. Now, Mr. Simon, between 17 May of 1993 and July of 1995, so we're focussing on the 18 period before the entry into the barracks -- 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Did you own any guns or firearms? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: How many such guns did you own? 23 A: How many? I'm not sure. I think -- 24 let's see -- I don't know. I think at one point I had 25 about eight (8) or nine (9) guns, maybe ten (10).
1421 Q: Okay. And what types of guns did you 2 own during this time period? 3 A: Jeez, all different kinds. I'd have 4 little .22s for rabbits and squirrels and stuff like 5 that. 6 Q: When you say "little .22s" I don't 7 know anything about guns. 8 A: Well -- 9 Q: So what's a little .22? 10 A: Well a .22 is like a -- one of the 11 smallest kind of rifles you can get. 12 Q: It's a rifle? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: .22s for rabbits and squirrels. I 16 had shot guns, a couple of shot guns for ducks and birds. 17 I had a couple of high powered rifles for bigger game 18 like deer or whatever. 19 Q: Okay. All right. And what did you 20 use these guns for? 21 A: For hunting to feed our -- well 22 sustenance, I guess. We need feeding, pretty much. We'd 23 -- that's how we lived. 24 Q: And is it safe to say that you knew 25 how to handle a rifle?
1431 A: Oh yeah. 2 Q: When did you learn and from whom did 3 you learn how to handle a rifle? 4 A: When did I learn? Probably pretty 5 young. Let's see. I think I was nine (9) -- or eight 6 (8) or nine (9) maybe somewheres around there, whenever I 7 got a BB gun and pretty much had a gun all while I was 8 growing up. 9 Q: Okay. Did you hunt from time to time 10 between 1993 and July 1995? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did -- 13 A: Pretty much hunted all the time. 14 Q: Did you consider yourself to be a 15 good hunter? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: A reasonably good shot? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And focussing on the May '93 to July 20 '95 period, did you hunt on the Camp Ipperwash lands? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And over what periods of time during 23 the year would you typically hunt? 24 A: Let's see. Mostly from October -- 25 October to around, let's see, January, February,
1441 somewhere around there. 2 Q: Okay. And from time to time, would 3 you hunt during the other part of the year? 4 A: Like sometimes you'd go out and -- if 5 we needed like some meat in the summer time or something, 6 we'd go out and get a deer or whatever. 7 Q: Mmm hmm. And was this a -- a day 8 time activity or a night time activity or both? 9 A: Both. 10 Q: And why would one go hunting in the 11 night time? 12 A: Well we don't really look at hunting 13 as being a sport or anything, something that we don't 14 really do for fun. We just do it for -- to feed 15 ourselves. 16 Q: Hmm mmm. 17 A: And it's a lot easier to catch 18 animals at the night time, so we would pretty much go for 19 the easier way to get food. 20 Q: Okay. And how frequently, say, in a 21 week -- typical week, would you likely go out and hunt? 22 A: I'd say four (4) or five (5) days 23 anyways. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: A week.
1451 Q: Where did you store your rifles -- 2 A: Where? 3 Q: -- when you weren't hunting? 4 A: Whenever I wasn't hunting. Different 5 places down Kettle Point. Let's see, I had them in 6 Kettle Point or maybe even at the trailer where we were 7 staying or if we were going away we would leave them at a 8 friend's house or something. 9 Q: Hmm mmm. And why would you leave 10 them at your friend's house if you were going away? 11 A: We didn't want to leave them down 12 there because a lot of people go through -- go through 13 the things, go through our stuff and just didn't want 14 them to go missing. 15 Q: Okay. And where would you store your 16 -- your rifles -- or not store them, but where would you 17 keep them during your active hunting periods? 18 A: Where did I keep them? Pretty much 19 with me all the time. 20 Q: Why is that? 21 A: Just, you weren't really sure when 22 you were going to see an animal that you'd like to eat 23 and they would just pretty much pop up whenever. 24 Q: Okay. Is it fair to say that -- that 25 hunting for wildlife was one (1) of the ways that -- that
1461 you provided for your livelihoods down there? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Did you ever use your rifles for any 4 purposes other than hunting? 5 A: Just target shooting. We'd zone in 6 our scopes or whatever so that we're shooting right -- 7 right dead on. 8 Q: And where would you do your target 9 shooting? 10 A: Different spots around. We used to 11 like using that rifle range all the time because we could 12 measure the distance away how far our guns were shooting 13 right on. Then you got, like, different notches on your 14 scopes where when you get it set up for one (1) distance, 15 you can move your -- move -- like, if you got a target at 16 a different distance or something, you can use a 17 different line on the scope. 18 Q: You just have to speak a little bit 19 closer -- 20 A: All right. 21 Q: -- into your microphone. That's fine. 22 Thank you. All right. The rifle range you're -- are you 23 referring to the rifle range that is marked on Exhibit P- 24 60? 25 A: Yes, I am. And we'd also go down by
1471 that Bio Lake down there, which is -- 2 Q: Perhaps you could use your pointer to 3 show us where the bio lake is. 4 A: Okay, up in here. 5 Q: Does that say "bio lake"? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And then there's a big sand dune on 9 the other side of there so we'd kind of shoot across 10 there. 11 Q: Now were there ever children at the 12 campsites from time to time? 13 A: Yes, there was. 14 Q: And did they sometimes sleep over? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Would you take any measures to ensure 17 that children would not be in harm's way when -- when you 18 went hunting or target shooting? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: What measures would you take? 21 A: We'd pretty much -- well, like I said, 22 there was a big sand dune behind this lake where we would 23 -- and we'd use that big sand dune as a backstop. Like, 24 whenever we're down here we'd kind of cruise up and down 25 here and make sure nobody was back in here.
1481 Q: Back in here. You're -- you're 2 pointing at the rifle range? 3 A: Yeah. Make sure nobody was back in 4 there that we were going to kind of come in contact with 5 while were siting in our guns. 6 Q: Okay. Mr. Simon, did you ever point 7 your gun at a person? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Or at a vehicle? 10 A: No. 11 Q: To your knowledge did other persons 12 who lived at the camp with you also hunt? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And did they have guns? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And, specifically, are you aware as to 17 whether or not Dudley George ever hunted? 18 A: Yes, he did. 19 Q: And how do you know that? 20 A: Because he went hunting with me all 21 the time. 22 Q: Did he have -- did he own a gun of his 23 own? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And so, what -- what would he do?
1491 A: Well, we'd just lend him one or 2 whatever. 3 Q: Did somebody teach you -- or anyone 4 teach you how to care for a gun or a rifle? 5 A: Anyone teach me? Not really, just 6 take care of it. 7 Q: All right. And was it important to 8 you that you take care of your rifle? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Why is that? 11 A: To keep it shooting straight because 12 you go hunting, you want to be able to shoot whatever you 13 see. And if you keep your gun clean and keep it from 14 getting bumped around, it'll shoot straight for you all 15 the time and you end up coming home with food. 16 Q: Fair enough. Are you aware of an 17 allegation that someone from the Aazhoodena community 18 shot at a helicopter in or around August of 1993? 19 A: Yes, I am. 20 Q: Were you present at that alleged 21 shooting? 22 A: No. 23 Q: I want to spend a few moments with 24 respect to Mr. Dudley George. I understand that he was 25 your second cousin?
1501 A: Yes. 2 Q: How well did you know him? 3 A: I knew him pretty good. 4 Q: How would you describe Dudley George's 5 character? 6 A: Comical. He was a fun guy to be 7 around. 8 Q: Did you ever witness him using 9 excessive physical force against others? 10 A: No he was just a small guy. 11 Q: How -- how big was he? 12 A: Jeez I don't even know. 13 Q: Okay. Was he your size, bigger or 14 smaller? 15 A: No, he was smaller, a lot smaller. 16 Q: Okay. Were you ever afraid of him? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you ever witness Dudley George 19 interacting with the Ontario Provincial Police during the 20 time period that you were at the camp between May of '93 21 and July of '95. 22 A: Yep. 23 Q: And what was the nature of those 24 interactions? 25 A: The nature? Gee, I don't know. He'd
1511 be -- I don't know, ridiculing them or something. 2 Q: Who's ridiculing who? 3 A: Dudley would be ridiculing the 4 police. 5 Q: In what way? 6 A: Whatever. In all different kind of 7 ways. 8 Q: Okay. Can you think of any specific 9 examples? 10 A: Not any one specific. Maybe shooting 11 a finger to the police or whatever but .. 12 Q: You say "shooting a finger" to the 13 police? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. Were any of those interactions 16 that you witnessed between Dudley George and the OPP 17 involve any physical contact? 18 A: No. Just the once when they come 19 and arrested him. 20 Q: Okay. Did the OPP ever addressed 21 Dudley George by his name in your presence? 22 A: Yep. 23 Q: Do you know whether the OPP officers 24 who -- with whom Mr. George had contact or interactions 25 were from the local Detachments?
1521 A: Yep. 2 Q: Okay. Did you ever witness any 3 interactions as between Dudley George and military 4 personnel from the army base? 5 A: Yep. 6 Q: And again, what was the general 7 nature of those interactions? 8 A: Pretty much the same thing. I 9 remember they were always -- always telling the army to 10 leave or get lost or take a hike or whatever. 11 Q: Okay. Did you witness any physical 12 contact with respect to Mr. George and the OP -- sorry, 13 the military during the course of any of these 14 interactions? 15 A: Any physical contact? No. 16 Q: Did you ever witness Dudley George 17 pointing a rifle or gun at either an OPP officer or a 18 military person during this time period of -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- May '93 to July '95? 21 A: No, never. 22 Q: Did you personally have what you 23 would consider to be hostile or unfriendly interactions 24 with any of the military personnel from the army base 25 between May of 1993 and July 29th of '95?
1531 A: Did I ever have any? 2 Q: Hostile -- what you would consider to 3 be hostile or unfriendly interactions? 4 A: Let's see. Not really, let's see. 5 In July -- June -- yeah, I guess it would be in June -- 6 June of '95 the -- I don't know. I guess it was some -- 7 some military guys or military policemen were drinking 8 and they end up taking off from the base up there and 9 they come down and flattened my tires on my four (4) 10 wheeler. 11 Q: Did you see them do that? 12 A: No. I heard my tires just start 13 leaking air. Just psh, psh, psh, pshhhhh like that and 14 then I hurry up and run out my trailer and just see them 15 running away in the dark. 16 Q: And what, if anything did you do as a 17 result of seeing that? 18 A: I went over to my bike and see if it 19 was drive-able, but it wasn't so I ended up getting my 20 girlfriend and we ended up walking over to the next camp 21 over to alert them and tell them that there was army guys 22 running around doing stuff. So get them awake and set up 23 flares and stuff around where we could keep an eye on our 24 -- our valuables that were at the next camp. 25 Q: Now, you said you went door. Do you
1541 remember whose trailer that was? 2 A: Let's see that would be -- it was 3 probably the bus. There was a bus at -- the next camp 4 was at -- down on the beach. 5 Q: Who was staying there? 6 A: At the bus? 7 Q: Mmm hmm. Yes. 8 A: I'm not sure. My cousin Harley and a 9 bunch of my cousins. 10 Q: Harley George? 11 A: Yeah. A bunch of my cousins, Harley 12 and Buzz. 13 Q: I'm sorry, did you say Buzz? 14 A: Yeah. Harley -- his name's Dale -- 15 Q: Clain (phonetic)? 16 A: Yeah. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Just for clarification of the record. 21 Where were you living -- 22 A: Where was I living? 23 Q: -- at the time that this event 24 occurred? 25 A: There was an old place where they use
1551 to feed the cadets. It's right -- let's see I'll show 2 you on -- it would be right in, let's see, right in here 3 somewhere. There's a clearing in here... 4 Q: So, that's north of what -- of 5 Matheson Drive? 6 A: Matheson Drive was right here. 7 Q: Okay. So, that's on the beach 8 property that was possessed by the military base? 9 A: Yeah. This is kind of more in a for 10 -- more in the woods. Kind of a -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- it's a cleared out spot and then 13 there's the sand dunes are right here and then the beach 14 is right around there. 15 Q: Okay. Close to the shore of Lake 16 Huron? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. Thank you. Did you take any 19 other steps to redress the tire slashing? 20 A: Yeah. Well I went and alerted the 21 next camp over and that would be right in here somewhere 22 by what we call the pass and there's a bus there. We lit 23 up a bunch of flares and then put them behind things so 24 that guys could sit in the bus and then look out and then 25 be able to see if anybody was running up or sneaking up
1561 to their camp while they're gone. 2 And then I borrowed a bike and then I 3 biked down to, let's see, Kettle Point and told my Uncle 4 Glenn that the army guys were running around doing stuff 5 at night and asked him if he'd round up some guys and 6 come down and help. 7 Q: And did that happen? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And were you -- were there any 10 further interactions with the military that evening? 11 A: Not with me. But I think my Glenn -- 12 my Uncle Glenn and Worm (phonetic) or Stuart, Bradley 13 George found one -- one (1) military policeman; he was 14 all drank up walking around. 15 Q: Okay. I -- now I know don't want you 16 -- let me caution you and I -- I'd only like you to speak 17 from what you have direct knowledge of. 18 A: Yeah. Yeah. 19 Q: So, if this is something that was 20 told to you by -- by your uncle or -- or by Stuart 21 George, perhaps you can just tell me that. 22 A: All right. Yeah. 23 Q: Okay. And perhaps we'll wait for 24 those witnesses to come forward. But you understand 25 there was some type of incidents involving them and the
1571 military that evening? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Thank you. All right. Now you also 4 indicated that -- that you had set up flares so I -- I 5 assume that the flares were lit, were they? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And so this occurred at night? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Do you know approximately what time 10 of night? 11 A: I'm not even sure. 12 Q: Do you know if it was before or after 13 midnight? 14 A: It'd probably be around -- after 15 midnight I guess. 16 Q: I'm sorry? 17 A: Around midnight, after midnight. 18 Q: Okay. It was dark in any event? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. Now, did you have any 21 other interactions with military personnel that were 22 unfriendly -- considered by you to be unfriendly or 23 hostile in any way? 24 A: Any other ones, no. That was pretty 25 much all.
1581 Q: Okay. 2 A: Let's see there was another one when 3 my brother moved into a little shed along there -- 4 Q: All right. You're pointing to -- I'm 5 sorry -- 6 A: Pardon? 7 Q: You're pointing to Exhibit P-60 again 8 about half way along the rifle range line? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: And then the -- the army pulled up in 12 the middle of the night and my brother was staying in 13 there and they started confiscating all his stuff that he 14 had in that thing so he comes running up to our camp 15 where we were up at where Abe's homestead camp was and 16 asked us for help and so we went back there and kind of 17 got a little -- 18 Q: What did you see when you arrived at 19 his trailer, if anything, or his cabin? 20 A: What did I see? I seen a big -- what 21 do they call them -- deuce-and-a-halves -- big military 22 truck with a -- it was backed right up to the little 23 shack that he was living in or trying to stay in and they 24 were - military guys were running in and out loading all 25 kinds of stuff into the truck and there was jeeps and
1591 pickup trucks all around --all around the roadway and 2 that little yard, or whatever you call it -- wherever is 3 was. 4 Q: And did -- I'm sorry -- 5 A: Wherever it was. 6 Q: Okay. Did you take any steps to try 7 to prevent the military from removing your brother, 8 Kevin's, items? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: What? 11 A: Let's see, I just kind of drove up to 12 one (1) of the jeeps and then I just started pushing it 13 down the road and it got going pretty good and it just 14 kept on cruising down the road and then one (1) of the 15 guys in charge said, well let's go, pack up, let's go. 16 Everybody just kind of jumped up and took off. 17 Q: All right. And just so I understand, 18 the -- you called it a shack -- that Kevin was living in. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Was that something to your knowledge 21 that -- that he built? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Was it a building that was there when 25 you entered the land?
1601 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And do you know what type of 3 items were removed by the military -- that you saw 4 removed? 5 A: There was some couches and chairs, a 6 stove -- a couple of stoves -- fridge and that's about 7 all, I think. 8 Q: Do you know -- 9 A: Probably a TV or radio. 10 Q: Do you have any belief as to why the 11 military did this? 12 A: Do I have any belief? Let's see, 13 well, it was there building and they -- I don't know, I 14 think they got in touch with -- Maynard George was a 15 Acting Chief or something right around that time and he 16 come over and said that the military guys got in touch 17 with him and they wanted my brother out of there. 18 Q: Was that Maynard T. George? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Thank you. All right. And were there 21 any other -- what you consider to be unfriendly or 22 hostile interactions that you were involved with and 23 including -- sorry -- involving the military? 24 A: No, that's about it. 25 Q: All right. So those two (2)
1611 incidents. 2 A: Mmm hmm. 3 Q: And when did that second incident 4 happen approximately? 5 A: The second one I described? 6 Q: Yes, with your -- your brother. 7 A: That was probably in June of '93 -- 8 May or June of '93. 9 Q: Now, during this time frame from May 10 of '93 to July of 1995, did you have any interactions 11 that you would consider to be hostile or unfriendly with 12 the OPP on the Camp Ipperwash lands? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. How would you describe, 15 generally, the community's relationship with the army 16 base personnel during this approximate two (2) year 17 period? 18 A: Just -- I don't know -- just kind of 19 one of taunting each other. Kind of like neighbours 20 bickering at each other all the time. 21 Q: Okay. Did it ever go beyond bickering 22 or that type of thing -- taunting, to your knowledge? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. And how would you generally 25 describe your community's relationship with the OPP
1621 during this general time period of May '93 to July of 2 '95? 3 A: The -- what was that again? 4 Q: How would you describe the 5 relationship as between your community at Aazhoodena and 6 the OPP during that approximate two (2) year period of 7 time? 8 A: I'd say everybody was kind of afraid 9 that the OPP would come in and physically remove us from 10 there. 11 Q: Mmm hmm. 12 A: People were always kind of scared that 13 was going to happen. 14 Q: All right. And did they ever attempt 15 to do that, to your knowledge? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Were any security measures 18 taken that you know of, within your community, in the 19 event that event were to take place that the OPP tried to 20 -- would try to remove you? 21 A: We -- security measures? No. 22 Q: Okay. Now I understand that a 23 tribute dinner was held at the Aazhoodena community in 24 March of 1994. 25 A: Yeah.
1631 Q: Were you there? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And what was the purpose of this 4 dinner? 5 A: Is to -- well it was a dinner for 6 Dudley's birthday. It was his birthday -- it around 7 March 17th sometime around there was his birthday and was 8 -- for his birthday anyways. And then there was like 9 tribute to him and one for -- to Clifford, too, for their 10 -- pretty much stayed there the whole winter. 11 Q: Were you also one of the persons who 12 has been celebrated? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No? Okay. And do you think -- did 15 Dudley George receive any recognition aside from the fact 16 that it was his birthday? 17 A: Yeah, there was a big flyer thing 18 that was all done up and everything. 19 Q: A flyer? 20 A: Yeah. Well -- well not a flyer. It 21 was, kind of, a brief history that Dudley's parents and 22 his connection to the land or whatever and I guess that 23 was pretty much it. 24 Q: Do you know who assembled that 25 information?
1641 A: My mom did, I think. 2 Q: Okay. And in your opinion, did -- 3 did Dudley George deserve that recognition? 4 A: Oh yeah. 5 Q: Why? 6 A: I don't know. It was just his 7 birthday. We always kind of celebrated his birthday with 8 him. And then I -- we just never, ever seen like a 9 people -- like really honour him like that, because he's 10 always helping people do whatever and help them move or 11 cutting wood or doing anything, just kind of whatever he 12 could do he would help you out with. 13 Q: Was he someone who you looked up to? 14 A: Looked up to? I don't know. Just -- 15 yeah, I guess. Just kind of a good guy to have around. 16 Q: How would you describe the nature, 17 then, of your community's occupation of part of the Camp 18 Ipperwash lands between May of 1993 and July of 1995? 19 A: How would I -- what was that? 20 Q: How would describe or characterize 21 that occupation? 22 A: Let's see. It was kind of like a 23 occupation or something at first, then after a while it 24 was just -- was just home. 25
1651 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I am 4 about to go into a new area. I'm wondering if this is 5 appropriate for the afternoon break or if you want to -- 6 to go further? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think 8 this is fine. We're going to stop at half past 4:00. 9 This would be a good time to take a break. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 for fifteen (15) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 3:14 p.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 3:30 p.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: Mr. Simons, I have to say I speak too 22 closely to the mike, apparently and you don't speak close 23 enough to the mike, so maybe if we both go half way, 24 we'll be about right. 25 A: All right.
1661 Q: Thank you. Now, between May -- May 2 of 1993 and July of 1995, did you observe any helicopter 3 activity over the Camp Ipperwash lands? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And can you just describe to us what 6 -- what you would see and how frequently? 7 A: Just helicopters would come flying 8 over, I'd say around two o'clock in the morning until -- 9 until daylight -- until some time around there. Late at 10 night they'd come over -- fly over all the camps and then 11 just kind of hover right over top of the campgrounds. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: And that would happen pretty much 14 every night there for a while. 15 Q: During what time period or frame, 16 approximately, would that happen on a nearly nightly 17 basis? 18 A: I'd say in August sometime -- August 19 and July. 20 Q: Of what year? 21 A: '93. 22 Q: Okay. And can you describe the 23 helicopter that would fly over? 24 A: No, I wouldn't really be able to see 25 it -- just -- just see a big helicopter up there.
1671 Q: And what was your reaction to this 2 helicopter flying over your camp every night for a couple 3 of months? 4 A: Just -- I don't know, I just kind of 5 got used to it, I guess, after a while. 6 Q: Okay. Did you take any steps or 7 actions to -- to try to discourage or stop the helicopter 8 from flying over top? 9 A: No, not really. Just shine -- shine 10 it with a big spotlight or whatever. 11 Q: You'd shine a spotlight at it? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Did other people do that, that you 14 saw? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Did you see other people in your 17 community take any steps in an effort to discourage or 18 stop the helicopter from flying over every night? 19 A: No. 20 Q: You said earlier in your testimony 21 that sometimes you would keep your guns at your friend's 22 house when you wouldn't be -- when you were going to be 23 absent from the camp from -- for a while. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: You said, down there, and I'm just
1681 wondering what -- where -- where was your friend's house 2 located? 3 A: Just different friends down in Kettle 4 Point. 5 Q: On Kettle Point? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Kettle Point or wherever. 9 Q: All right. Did you ever lend one (1) 10 of your rifles with a scope on it to Dudley George? 11 A: I'm not sure if I did -- could have. 12 Q: Okay. Did you ever witness Dudley 13 George point a rifle at any person? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did you ever see him use it for any 16 purposes other than hunting? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you ever see him engage in target 19 practice? 20 A: Maybe, yeah, once in a while. Just 21 not really all that often. 22 Q: Okay. You indicated that sometimes 23 you would hunt with Dudley George. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: How did he fare as a hunter in your
1691 opinion? 2 A: He was all right. Just some people 3 are lucky and some people aren't. 4 Q: And how -- how would you characterize 5 Dudley George's luck from what you saw? 6 A: It was good. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: He'd come home with food. 9 Q: And would you say he was as good a 10 shot as you? 11 A: I don't know. Yeah, he was a good 12 shot. 13 Q: Okay. I understand in the summer of 14 1995, a group of aboriginal people entered the built-up 15 area of Camp Ipperwash. Were you part of that group? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. And just for 18 clarification, when we speak of the built-up area, we're 19 referring to the living quarters and administrative 20 buildings of the -- that was formerly occupied by the 21 army base personnel. Is that right? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Okay. Do you recall the day of that 24 entry? 25 A: I believe it was July 29th, 1995.
1701 Q: Okay. Do you recall approximately how 2 many people entered the built-up area as part of that 3 initial entry group? 4 A: Do I recall? I don't know, I'd say 5 about thirty (30), maybe. 6 Q: Thirty (30)? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: All right. Can you name some of those 9 people? Do you recall? 10 A: Can I name some of those people? 11 Yeah, probably. 12 Q: Will you do that for me? 13 A: Holy -- 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Well, I -- all right. Let's see 18 there's ... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Okay, there's me, my uncles -- my 23 uncle Glen, my brother, a bunch of my cousins, all kinds 24 of my cousins were there. Let's see, brother Kevin, 25 Simon, uncle Glen George -- holy -- there's just too many
1711 people to name. 2 Q: Okay. Can you give me some of the 3 family names, perhaps, of the people who entered? 4 A: Some of the family names? Geez there 5 was a lot of people from Pearl's family, Pearl George's 6 family. And there's a lot of people from Rose's -- Rose 7 Manning's family, from our family. 8 Pearl's family, Rose's family. Clifford 9 and his little family there. 10 I think there was a few people from, let's 11 see, Oneida was there and a few people from Walpole too. 12 Maybe Sarnia reserve, I'm not sure. 13 Q: All right. Was Dudley George amongst 14 that group? 15 A: I can't remember. I don't think so. 16 Q: Okay. By what mode of transportation 17 did you physically enter the built up area? 18 A: Mode of transportation? I had an old 19 junkie Buick. 20 Q: Okay. Was that a LeSabre? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And what colour was that? 23 A: Green. 24 Q: Okay. I wonder ... 25
1721 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I'm going to ask you to look at the 4 diagram in front of you of the barracks. 5 A: Okay. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And that's Exhibit P-41, for the 10 record. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Okay. Thank you very much. And can 15 you tell me, using this map, and maybe this one isn't the 16 right one to use, but can you tell me using that map 17 where your point of entry into the built-up area was? 18 A: My point of entry was right in here. 19 Q: All right. And what -- that road is 20 called "The Strand", is it? 21 A: Yeah, I guess. 22 Q: According to that diagram and -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- you're pointing to where it's 25 marked "To Ranges".
1731 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. All right. And did you just 3 come along the road or did you have to go through a 4 barrier to enter? 5 A: Oh yeah, there was a barrier right 6 around here. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Just like a saw horse kind of road 9 block thing. It had -- there was barbed wire all across 10 there and some lights. What else -- there was some kind 11 of spiked bars that were all the way along here, just if 12 anybody wanted to drive around it they would get their 13 tires flattened. 14 Q: Right. All right. So how did you 15 enter? 16 A: Just pulled up there and kind of 17 moved all these spiked bars out of the way and, yeah, 18 just loaded up all these spiked bars in the trunk of the 19 car and just went in from there. 20 Q: Okay. And did anyone ride in your 21 car with you? 22 A: Yep. 23 Q: Who? 24 A: I'm not sure. I think it might be 25 Wesley George and I can't remember who else was with me.
1741 Q: And approximately what time of day 2 was this? 3 A: Noon, maybe. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: Middle of the day, anyway. 6 Q: To your knowledge, was the military 7 given any advance notice that -- of -- of your intentions 8 to enter onto the barracks? 9 A: No. 10 Q: To your knowledge, was the military 11 ever provided with any written document or documents 12 outlining the Aazhoodena community's claim to the built- 13 up area? 14 A: Was they given any -- yeah. 15 Q: All right. And do you know who 16 delivered that notice? 17 A: I think it might have been that 18 bailiff, Scott Ewart. 19 Q: Was there any discussions or common 20 understanding of which you are aware amongst your 21 community members that this action was going to be taken 22 on July 29th, 1995? 23 A: Was there any -- pardon me? 24 Q: Discussions or -- that you were a part 25 of?
1751 A: Yeah. 2 Q: All right. Was there any significance 3 behind the date which was selected for this -- this 4 occupation? 5 A: Any significance? No. 6 Q: Okay. Did you see anyone from your 7 group bring guns or firearms -- firearms into the built- 8 up area when you entered it? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Did you carry any of your rifles into 11 the barracks the day you entered? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Why not? 14 A: Well, it was -- it was supposed to be, 15 like, a peaceful thing, too, where -- well, we didn't 16 really want guns and stuff like that drawing -- drawing 17 attention away from what we really wanted to be there 18 for. 19 Q: Which was? 20 A: To establish a place for where we 21 could have Elders stay or something, maybe get a building 22 from the military or something, whatever. 23 Q: Why were you looking for shelter for 24 the Elders? 25 A: For wintertime -- was -- well, we
1761 figured we might be able to have something for them by 2 the time wintertime showed up. 3 Q: Can you tell the Commission, to the 4 best of your recollection, what occurred upon your 5 initial entry into the built-up area? What you observed 6 that day? 7 A: What I observed? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: It was kind of like -- I'm not sure. 10 Everybody was just kind of running around exploring. It 11 was kind of like a free-for-all thing. Everybody was 12 running around checking out different buildings and the 13 military guys were running around trying to keep people 14 out of the buildings that they were using. 15 Q: You said there were about thirty (30) 16 individuals from your community who entered. Do you know 17 approximately how many military personnel were on hand 18 when you walked in? 19 A: There wasn't very many. 20 Q: All right. Do you know if there was 21 more or less than thirty (30)? 22 A: I'd say probably, maybe about the 23 same. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Less, if any.
1771 Q: Were there any cadets there? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you witness an incident involving 4 a collision between a bus and a military vehicle? 5 A: I never witnessed it but I come around 6 the corner and there was a -- the bus was parked right up 7 against a jeep. 8 Q: When you came -- 9 A: And then by the time I got over there, 10 the bus was kind of like pulled away from there. The 11 jeep was -- the jeep guy was taking off or whatever. 12 Q: When you say there was a bus, was this 13 the bus that you referred to that was on the beach? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: All right. Do you know whose bus that 16 was? 17 A: It was my uncle's bus but then he -- I 18 don't know who he give it to them, my uncle or my cousin 19 -- one (1) of the two (2) he give it to them. 20 Q: Which uncle? 21 A: My uncle Warren. 22 Q: Warren George? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: All right. Do you know who was 25 driving that bus?
1781 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Who was that? 3 A: My cousin, Harley. 4 Q: Harley George? 5 A: Yep. 6 Q: Were there -- sorry, when you came 7 around the corner you said, can you just give me a sense 8 as to what corner you're speaking to? You can look at 9 the map perhaps and point it out for us? 10 A: It was right in here I come around. 11 Right on this corner. 12 Q: All right. And do you know what the 13 building number that is? Is that between 31 and 32? 14 A: Yep. Yep. 15 Q: So it was in that vicinity? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. And when you -- 18 A: Came up around that corner and the 19 bus was right around here somewhere. 20 Q: The bus was by the time you -- you 21 saw it, it was on the opposite side of that Square? 22 A: Yeah. We're at the other end of the 23 Parade Square in front of this Drill Hall. 24 Q: Yes. All right. Now I think you 25 said to me earlier that when you rounded the corner you
1791 saw -- I think the way you put it was that the bus was 2 parked against the jeep? 3 A: Yeah. The bus was kind of facing 4 that way up towards this way and it was like the back end 5 of the bus was facing over here and the jeep was parked 6 right up against it. 7 Q: Okay. And so you are again pointing 8 to the general vicinity towards the Drill Hall -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- of the -- what you're calling the 11 Parade Square. All right. 12 And did you see whether there was actually 13 physical contact? Were they touching each other? 14 A: The -- no I never. 15 Q: You didn't see that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: But it looked like it was. 19 Q: Okay. And you indicated that the 20 jeep drove away from the bus? 21 A: Hmm, hmm. 22 Q: And what happened to the bus? 23 A: I don't know. It was just kind of 24 sit there. 25 Q: All right.
1801 A: I don't know. It might have moved 2 ahead a little bit or something. I can't remember. By - 3 - by the time I got there it was -- everything was all 4 cleared up. I know kids were getting off the bus or 5 something. 6 Q: Now you said that you think you 7 entered the built-up area with your cousin Wesley George? 8 A: Hmm, hmm. 9 Q: Approximately how old was Wesley 10 George at that time? 11 A: How old was he? I'd say he was 12 probably about sixteen (16) maybe. 13 Q: Okay. Were there any children who 14 came into the built-up area with the initial group 15 amongst that thirty (30)? 16 A: Any children? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And they were mostly -- well they 21 were -- the ones that weren't with their parents, like 22 most of them come in right at the gate. The ones that 23 weren't with their parents they were on the bus and they 24 come through this other little opening over here. 25 Q: All right. And you're pointing
1811 actually to an area along Army Camp Road on the norther 2 perimeter of the built-up area? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And how do you know the bus came in 5 through there? Did you see it? 6 A: No. Just -- that's the place where 7 the bus was going to come through. 8 Q: That was the plan? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And were there any women 11 amongst the group? 12 A: Hmm, hmm. 13 Q: You'll have to say yes or no for the 14 record. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Thank you. Okay. And you also said 17 to me that the military was running around trying to keep 18 people out of buildings? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Did you witness any other -- any 21 interactions as between personnel from the military and 22 individuals from your group? 23 A: Interactions? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Not really. Just a military would
1821 come out and say that they're using this building still 2 and that -- just asked if we could stay out of there I 3 guess. 4 Q: All right. Did -- did you hear these 5 kinds of statements? 6 A: Hmm, hmm. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: Hmm, hmm. 9 Q: Say -- I'm sorry you have to say yes 10 for the records. 11 A: Yes. Yes. And let's see we were 12 entering, let's see number, building number 33 and there 13 was somebody holding the door and we finally got that 14 open and we were talking to him and he was like, no we're 15 still using this. 16 And a military police car pulled up and it 17 stopped right out there and said that he just got out a 18 meeting with -- like the heads of the families and said 19 that they were going to -- that they got to use that 20 building and that we were going to have to stay in some 21 other building over there somewhere. 22 Q: All right. And just so that I 23 understand, are you indicating that you were -- you heard 24 from a military officer outside of building number 33, 25 there had been a meeting with the heads of families and
1831 that some arrangements had been made as a result? 2 A: Yeah. Yes. 3 Q: All right. And did you respect those 4 arrangements? 5 A: I don't know, not really. Just kind 6 of kept looking around. I went to the beach for the 7 afternoon and after that. 8 Q: You -- you departed to the beach? 9 A: Yeah, went to the beach for a little 10 while and then I come back and the military was -- well 11 everybody was just kind of sitting around over here and 12 they were -- I don't know, they were going to have a -- I 13 forget, I think they had a meeting in this building here 14 and then -- 15 Q: Is that -- 16 A: -- these people -- 17 Q: I'm sorry -- 18 A: -- were sitting -- 19 Q: Building 46? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And then there was a bunch of people 23 sitting around over here? 24 Q: And that's the Number 45 complex? 25 A: Yeah. Yes, it is.
1841 Q: Okay. Just so I understand the time 2 frame, how long did you spend in the built up area 3 initially, before you went to the beach. 4 A: Jeez, I'm not sure. A few hours. 5 Q: Okay. And -- and then you went down 6 to the beach for how long? 7 A: Maybe an hour or two (2). 8 Q: And when you came back were there 9 still military personnel? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: All right. At some point did the 12 military personnel depart? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: You know when? 15 A: Let's see. I'm not sure. About nine 16 o'clock, 9:30 sometime around there. 17 Q: At night. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. Did anyone from the military 20 in your presence tell the group that they were not 21 allowed to come in to this built up area? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did they tell them that they were to 24 leave immediately from this built up area? 25 A: No.
1851 Q: Do you have any belief as to why your 2 members weren't told that they weren't welcome? 3 A: Do I have any belief? 4 Q: Yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: I don't know. I just guess that they 9 were in a meeting like the head of the military was in a 10 meeting with the -- like the heads of the families and 11 then -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- then kind of -- 14 Q: And you just know that when that 15 finished there was some understanding that -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- was arranged, and ultimately the 18 military left. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Did you move 21 into the built up area that night? 22 A: Let's see. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1861 A: Yeah, it might have been that night. 2 I'm not sure. Yeah, it was that night. 3 Q: All right. And where did you -- 4 where did you sleep that night? 5 A: That night I slept -- I never slept 6 for a couple of days after that. I was just -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- keyed right up and it was pretty 9 exciting. 10 Q: Why were you excited? 11 A: It was just the military was gone and 12 it just seemed like finally got the land back from the 13 military that everybody was kind of -- I don't know. It 14 just seemed like something that was way distant, way and 15 -- just never really seemed like you were going to get 16 the land back. 17 And then finally it just seemed like we 18 had the land back. 19 Q: Had you anticipated that the military 20 would somehow try to resist you from entering the 21 barracks? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And had you taken any measures to -- 24 to try to deal with that possibility? 25 A: No.
1871 Q: All right. So you just walked in or 2 drove in, basically? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. Ultimately, did you 5 select a space in the built up area which you called 6 home? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: What space was that? 9 A: Building Number 34. I think it's a 10 warrant officer and Sergeant's Mess. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Sergeant Mess. Yeah. 13 Q: And how long has that been your home? 14 A: Since that day. 15 Q: And you still live there today? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Did other families move into the 18 built up area? 19 A: Hmm mmm. Yes, they did. 20 Q: And did that include the --the thirty 21 (30) or so that -- that initially walked in? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did more people join you later? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Did some people leave?
1881 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. You've told us -- well, 3 let me ask you this. Did -- did Dudley George ever move 4 into the built up area? 5 A: Yes, he did. 6 Q: And did he choose a place for his 7 home? 8 A: Yes, he did. 9 Q: What place was that? 10 A: Let's see here. I think it was 11 Building 115. Can't make out the numbers if it was 115 12 or 116 it -- it's the building right here. 13 Q: All right. And do you know what 14 building that was formerly known as? 15 A: No, I don't. 16 Q: Just for the record, you're --you're 17 referring to Exhibit P-41 and the building that is 18 opposite Old Kent Road and it looks like it's the second 19 building from the right of another street and it appears 20 to be unmarked or it may be Old Bailey Street. Is that 21 right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And it's beside building 117, 24 in any event. 25 A: Yes.
1891 Q: Okay. Do you -- do you recall how -- 2 how long he lived there? 3 A: How long he lived there? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Oh, a month -- maybe a month. Yeah, 6 it must have been about a month. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Because he died like, a month later. 9 Q: I didn't hear that last bit. 10 A: He ended up dying a month later. 11 Q: All right. Did he live there until 12 his death? 13 A: Yeah. Yes, he did. 14 Q: Now, you told us about a governance 15 structure which your community had prior to moving into 16 the built-up area and it consisted of a Chief and 17 Counsel. 18 Did that governance structure change in 19 any way after your move into the built-up area? 20 A: After the built -- moved into the 21 built-up area? Yeah, I think it was changed before. 22 Q: Before then? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. Can you tell me in what respect 25 did it change?
1901 A: It was just more like a -- the heads 2 of the families -- like, the main families that were 3 occupying the place and was just like the main -- the 4 main older people, the main people of the families. 5 Q: All right. And when you say that it 6 changed before you entered the built-up area, can you 7 give me an approximate time frame? Are we talking July 8 '95 or earlier? 9 A: Yeah, I'd say earlier. 10 Q: Do you know approximately when? 11 A: No, not really. 12 Q: Okay. And who were the heads of 13 families who were part of the governance structure as at 14 July 29th when you entered into the built-up area? 15 A: Let's see, there's be Abe -- Abraham 16 George and Roderick George and -- 17 Q: Did you say, Roderick George? Is -- 18 A: Yeah, Judith -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And then there was my grandma, Melva, 21 my uncle, Glenn, and my mom. They were fairly involved 22 in that too, and then there was Clifford and his 23 daughter, Lorraine. Most of them, I think -- Rose -- 24 Rose and Bruce Manning. 25 Q: And is Bruce Manning, Rose's son?
1911 A: Yeah. And I think there was Pearl and 2 Maynard. 3 Q: Maynard T. George? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. And again, what role did 6 the -- these heads of family play, generally, in the 7 decision-making -- with respect to important decision- 8 making efforts within the community? 9 A: What role did they play? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: They were like the -- the -- I don't 12 know -- the people you could deal with, I guess. 13 Q: The people to deal with? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: If you had any concerns, you would go 16 to them for guidance? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Were they in -- generally, in your 19 observation, generally were their decisions respected by 20 the members of the community? 21 A: Well, yeah. 22 Q: And you seem to be hesitating a little 23 bit. Was there any significant -- 24 A: Well -- 25 Q: -- aspects in which they weren't?
1921 A: I don't know, it was just kind of -- 2 people were always -- let's see, I don't know, I guess 3 there would be people that were kind of bickering all the 4 time and then -- well, if they did figure -- or did 5 decide to do something or did decide upon something then 6 you had to -- the rest of the community would respect it. 7 Q: After you moved into the built-up area 8 of Camp Ipperwash -- and I'm talking about from the 9 period of July 30th to September 3rd, approximately -- so 10 before the park. 11 What was the community's relationship 12 with the military? Were there any protocols put in place 13 or any working relationship set up that you were aware 14 of? 15 A: I'm not sure. I don't -- I'm not too 16 sure. I don't think so. Just -- just like with the 17 heads of families again or whatever. 18 Q: All right. So that's something that 19 was within their bailiwick? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: All right. Were services cut off 22 from the military base such as hydro and water? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Was the kitchen facility stripped by 25 the military?
1931 A: Some of the kit -- yeah, a lot of the 2 kitchens were but there was one (1) kitchen that was 3 remained intact. 4 Q: Which -- which kitchen was that? 5 A: I'm not sure what it's called. The 6 Savoy or something. It's right -- it was about -- it's 7 this building right here and it's Number 18. 8 Q: All right. Just on the other side of 9 Old Kent Road. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. And I heard there might have 12 been some good eating that happened the night of July 13 29th and 30th. 14 A: Oh yeah. 15 Q: Was there? 16 A: I don't know. There was just -- 17 well, there was stuff left over in that kitchen. 18 Q: From the military? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. Did members from the military 21 attempt to re-enter the built up area at any time between 22 July 30th and September 3rd? 23 A: No. 24 Q: No? Okay. Can you just give us a 25 snapshot, if you will, or -- of what life was like
1941 amongst the community at the built up -- after you 2 entered the built up area in -- you know, basically in 3 August of '95? 4 A: In August of '95? Everybody was 5 happy and kind of cheery, but it was kind of -- I don't 6 know. It was kind of -- everybody was kind of like 7 walking around on pins and needles or kind of -- 8 anticipating the OPP come in and move everybody out or 9 something -- something along those lines. 10 Q: Okay. So, it was kind of a duel 11 feeling, one of happiness at the fact that you had 12 successfully entered the -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- facility, but also a little 15 tension or concerns because you didn't know what laid 16 ahead? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did you bring your rifles with you 19 into the built up area after you moved in? 20 A: Moved in? Let's see. Maybe, I'm not 21 sure. I think -- yeah, I think we went hunting there 22 once in the summer time. 23 Had a big barbecue so we went and got a 24 deer. 25 Q: All right. You remember
1951 approximately how many -- how many rifles you owned 2 between the period July 30th and September 3rd of '95? 3 A: How many guns and stuff I owned? Let 4 me think here. Let's see. I think maybe about seven 5 (7). 6 Q: Okay and -- 7 A: Six (6) or seven (7), yeah. 8 Q: -- were they all rifles or some sort? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Can you tell me then what -- what 11 guns you had. 12 A: There was -- there was a couple shot 13 guns, two (2) 12-gauge shot guns, one (1) pump, one (1) 14 single shot. I had a 22 semi auto -- 15 Q: Semi? 16 A: Semi automatic? 17 Q: Okay, right. Rifle? 18 A: Yeah. 22 magnum bolt action. 19 Q: Mmm hmm. 20 A: Let's see, I had -- I think I had a 21 regular 22 that was a bolt action too. Like it wasn't a 22 magnum. I had a couple of high powered rifles. 23 Q: When you say, "high powered rifles", 24 what do you mean? 25 A: High powered like just bigger casing
1961 on them. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: High powered -- I don't know. 4 Q: Did you have any automatic firearms. 5 A: Yeah, I had a high powered semi -- 6 the high powered rifles were semi-automatic. 7 Q: Any others? 8 A: No, I think that's about it. 9 Q: All right. And did you store any of 10 these guns with you in -- in the barracks? 11 A: In the barracks? No. 12 Q: Where did you keep them during this 13 period of time? 14 A: In Kettle Point. 15 Q: At Kettle Point? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Where in Kettle Point. 18 A: Friend's place. 19 Q: Can you tell me which friends? 20 A: No. probably at my grandmother's 21 maybe. My grandmother's place. 22 Q: Melva? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Now you said that -- that you may 25 have brought in your -- just for clarification of the
1971 record, what do you mean by a semi-automatic rifle? 2 A: It loads itself, you pull the trigger 3 and it loads itself instead of -- so you don't have to 4 pump it or bolt -- use your bolt. 5 Q: And -- and how many bullets would be 6 held in the gun -- in the semi-automatic rifle that you 7 had? 8 A: Five (5). 9 Q: Five (5) shots? So, you could go 10 five (5) shots in a row without -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And you'll appreciate that I 13 don't know anything about guns. You have to pull the 14 trigger each time on a automatic -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- semi-automatic? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. You indicated that -- that you 19 may have hunted once between the July 30th and September 20 3rd? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And -- and do you recall where you 23 hunted? Was it on the Camp Ipperwash lands? 24 A: Yeah. Yeah. 25 Q: And was it during the day or night --
1981 A: Night time. 2 Q: -- you were -- nigh time? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And did you shoot anything that 5 night? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: What did you get? 8 A: I shot a deer. 9 Q: Okay. Did you -- were you involved 10 in any target practising during that period of time? I'm 11 talking July 30th to September 3rd. 12 A: Yeah. Probably the -- that night 13 that I went hunting. We usually take a couple of shots 14 to see where your gun is shooting or it's sighted in. 15 Make sure it hit's a target. 16 Q: Fair enough. And were you hunting 17 with anybody that particular evening? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Who? 20 A: I'm not sure. I can't remember. 21 Q: All right. Do you remember how many 22 people you were hunting with? 23 A: One (1) or maybe two (2). 24 Q: And did they have occasion to shoot 25 their guns that night?
1991 A: Nope. 2 Q: No shots? 3 A: Nope. Just -- just me. 4 Q: Just you? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Did they -- were they involved in 7 target practice that night? 8 A: I don't know. I don't think so. 9 Q: Okay. Do -- do you specifically 10 recall one way or the other? 11 A: I went I think I went and sighted in 12 my gun by myself. 13 Q: Okay. To your knowledge did -- did 14 you ever see Dudley George carrying a gun of any kind 15 between July 30th and September 3rd? 16 A: No. 17 Q: To your knowledge did he own a gun 18 during this period of time? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Who else did you see with guns during 21 this period of time at the Camp Ipperwash lands? 22 A: Who else did I see with guns? 23 Q: Aside from you, yeah? 24 A: Nobody, I don't think. Not that I 25 can recall.
2001 Q: What about the individual or 2 individuals you were hunting with? Were they from the 3 community -- Aazhoodena community? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And can you recall who those 6 individuals were? 7 A: No, I don't remember who it was. 8 Q: Okay. Did you sometimes hunt by 9 yourself? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. To your knowledge did any -- 12 you indicated that there were some individuals from the 13 Oneida First Nation and possibly from Sarnia I believe 14 and you indicated one other -- 15 A: Walpole. 16 Q: Walpole Island. Thank you. Were 17 these -- did any of these -- well firstly, can you recall 18 the names of these individuals? 19 A: Recall the names? Well there was 20 quite a few people that come visiting after and met quite 21 a few people. So, it's kind of hard to keep a good 22 memory of who all was there and who all I met. 23 Q: Well let's put it this way. Did any 24 of these individuals live in the built-up area? 25 And I'm still talking about July 30th to
2011 September 3rd time frame. 2 A: Yeah, I'm just trying to think here. 3 I don't think any of them lived there from that time 4 frame -- that time frame. 5 Q: Okay. Were there any who you would 6 consider to be frequent visitors to the built-up area 7 over that time period? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Who? 10 A: Let's see, those -- the Isaac brothers 11 moved there from Walpole. 12 Q: Is that Robert Isaac? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: Robert and Sam and Ed. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And Skid (phonetic). And there was 18 quite a few frequent visitors from Oneida, too -- Oneida 19 and Munsey. 20 Q: What about the Doxtators? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Did they -- were they frequent 23 visitors? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Is that Buck?
2021 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And Gabriel? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Any others from that family? 5 A: I'm not too sure. It's kind of hard 6 to -- 7 Q: How about the Jewel brothers? 8 A: Yeah, they were around. I don't think 9 they lived there either though yet. I don't think they 10 moved there after -- after... 11 Q: Okay. Can you think of any others, 12 particularly, who -- who were frequent visitors? 13 A: Frequent visitors? There's some 14 people from, I don't know, Munsey or Walpole, Sarnia 15 Reserve. Let's see, maybe Darlene -- what was her name - 16 - Joseph or something from Sarnia reserve. I think she 17 was a frequent visitor, too. 18 Q: All right. Now, did any of these 19 individuals hunt on the Camp Ipperwash lands during this 20 time period to your knowledge? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. Now, were there any protocols 23 put into place by the heads of family to your knowledge 24 with respect to hunting privileges during this time 25 frame?
2031 A: Any protocols? 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: Just -- we didn't want any, like, 4 firearms around. 5 Q: Meaning? Were -- were they not 6 supposed to be in the built-up area at all? 7 A: Well, just not really dancing around 8 with them or showing them off or stuff like that. 9 Q: All right. And do you know what the 10 reasoning was behind that general protocol of not having 11 fire -- firearms around, generally? 12 A: It was just -- well, we wanted to keep 13 everything, like, peaceful, so just -- well, it wouldn't 14 -- it would be kind of hard to keep everything -- say, I 15 don't know, if there was people walking around with guns 16 and stuff all the time. 17 Q: Okay. Now, did anyone -- any police 18 officer or any members -- member of the Ontario 19 Provincial Police attempt to gain entry into the built-up 20 area between -- at any time -- between July 29th and 21 September 3rd? 22 A: I think so. 23 Q: And can you tell me, were you a 24 witness to this? 25 A: I remember seeing the police up at the
2041 gate just after we went in. 2 Q: This is the main gate -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- at the corner of -- sorry, at 5 Highway 21 and Army Camp Road. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. And what did you see? 8 A: Let's see. I just seen a police 9 cruiser pull up out there and then they were talking to 10 somebody. I'm not sure who they were talking to. 11 Q: Somebody at the gatehouse? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. And how did that conversation 14 end? 15 A: I don't know. I just -- I think the 16 police were trying to gain access so that they could 17 patrol -- set up or establish a patrol or something -- 18 whatever. 19 Q: Establish a patrol within the built-up 20 area? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: Because the military was gone and 24 there was no military police or nothing in there -- in 25 there any more.
2051 Q: And was any protocol set up, to your 2 knowledge, which would facilitate the OPP patrolling the 3 built-up area? 4 A: None that I -- none that I know about. 5 Q: And did you see them, in fact, patrol 6 or enter the built-up area at any time between July 29th 7 and September 3rd aside from the -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- encounter at the gate? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: No. 13 Q: Now, based on your own observations of 14 Dudley George verse -- during this time frame of July 15 30th to September 3rd, did you notice any significant 16 change in his demeanor or attitude? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Did you observe him having any 19 interactions with either -- well, with members of the OPP 20 or members of the military during that time frame? 21 A: I'm not sure. I think maybe the 22 military might have sent somebody down to show everybody 23 how to like, work the stuff in the kitchen and stuff and 24 I think Dudley was one (1) of the guys that went around 25 with them.
2061 q: Okay, so essentially what you're 2 saying is that there -- that at some point during this 3 time frame, a military personnel were let into the built- 4 up area to show you how to operate certain things? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And were they allowed to do that? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And was there any incident as a 9 result of that? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. And do you know what it 12 is that they were showing you how to do? 13 A: Just light pilots and stuff like that 14 and -- 15 Q: Lighting pilots? 16 A: Yeah, like the pilots in the kitchen 17 -- I'm not sure. Maybe keep an eye on the water tower 18 and stuff like that. 19 Q: Were any of these facilities 20 containing this equipment locked when you entered? 21 A: Yeah, I think so. 22 Q: And do you know whether or not any 23 keys were passed over by the military? 24 A: Yeah, I think -- well, I think they 25 left all the keys behind and everybody had to kind of run
2071 around and figure out what keys were for what. 2 Q: Okay. So you saw these keys left 3 behind? 4 A: Oh, yeah. 5 Q: All right. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: After the initial takeover of the 10 built-up area in July -- of 29th of 1995 and before 11 September the 4th of '95, did you witness any physically 12 aggressive or violent interactions as -- as between any 13 members from your community and any members from the 14 Ontario Provincial Police or the military? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you witness anyone from your 17 community point a gun at any time at any -- at any member 18 of the Ontario Provincial Police or military during that 19 period of time? 20 A: No. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: All right. Did you participate in 25 the occupation of the Ipperwash Provincial park on
2081 Monday, September the 4th, 1995? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: To your knowledge, were there any 4 meetings in advance of the occupation which were the -- 5 which -- which discussed the possibility of a takeover of 6 the park? 7 A: Any meetings? I think there might 8 have been one (1) that day, the 4th. 9 Q: Were you -- did you participate in 10 any such meeting? 11 A: Well, I don't think it was like a 12 regular -- like a right drawn out meeting. It just -- 13 people were sitting around, they were having coffee at 14 the kitchen one (1) day and everybody says, well, park's 15 closing down are we going to go in there or not? 16 So everybody said, yeah, sure. 17 Q: Okay, so when -- when you say -- do 18 you recall who made this statement? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Your statement suggests that there 21 was some spec -- some discussion in advance of that day 22 about the eventual taking over of the park. Is that 23 right? 24 A: Yeah. It was kind of something 25 everybody sat around talking about, like for a few years,
2091 I guess. For a couple of years while we were still ... 2 Q: And was there a -- was a consensus 3 reached with respect to going into the park on September 4 the 4th? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Now, do you recall who was around 7 during this -- this conversation that occurred loosely in 8 the kitchen facility on that day? 9 A: Who was around? 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: Let's see. I think -- well, Abe 12 might have been there. Myself, my uncle -- 13 Q: Which uncle? 14 A: Glen. 15 Q: Mmm hmm. 16 A: I'm not sure. People used to cook 17 breakfast there every day so everybody would kind of meet 18 there first thing in the morning. 19 Q: So this kitchen -- because this is 20 like a mess hall? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And people would meet there as a 23 normal place to do their cooking? 24 A: Mmm hmm. 25 Q: At this time period?
2101 A: Well, somebody would like -- somebody 2 would cook and put on a big meal. Breakfast or whatever 3 and everybody would kind of show up, sit around, have 4 coffee or whatever. 5 Q: Okay. And I also hear there's some - 6 - there's some pretty good maple syrup that gets made 7 from time to time. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And do you know was Warren George one 10 of the people who lived in the barracks at this time? 11 A: Yeah. Yes, he was. 12 Q: And Roderick Julius George? 13 A: Yeah. Now let me think. I'm not too 14 sure because he was -- still had his house was still down 15 in Kettle Point there. 16 Q: Fair enough. How about Stuart 17 George? Had he moved in? 18 A: Hard to say. Yeah, he might have 19 moved in by then. 20 Q: Elwood George? 21 A: Elwood. I'm not sure if he did or 22 not. 23 Q: Okay. To the best of your knowledge, 24 why was the date of September 4th chosen? 25 A: Labour Day. It was -- I don't know
2111 it was just closed down for the year and we wouldn't have 2 any problems with the -- like say campers or putting the 3 -- I don't know it just seemed that it made -- it was 4 like less -- less of a chance of a violent confrontation 5 happening if it was done when the park was closed and 6 nobody was in there. 7 Q: Okay. And was to your knowledge, was 8 any notice given to either park officials or police 9 officers of the fact that you were going to go into the 10 park on September 4th? 11 A: I'm not sure if there was --like 12 notice or anything done up like that. But we always told 13 them that were going to take it over like every time we 14 met with them down there or something. Yeah, we are 15 going to take the park over. 16 Q: Okay. Now I need you to un-package 17 that statement for me a little bit. You say that -- that 18 when you would meet with them. Can you tell me who it is 19 you were meeting with? 20 A: The police. Like sometimes we'd see 21 the police on Matheson Drive or something sometimes. 22 Q: Okay. So would this be a casual kind 23 of verbal exchange with the police officers? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And did you have any such verbal
2121 exchange with the police officer? 2 A: I don't know if it was a police 3 officer but I remember telling a few of the -- what are 4 they park -- 5 Q: Park -- the superintendents or the 6 park wards? 7 A: Like conservation officers or 8 whatever I guess they are. 9 Q: Okay. Do you know the names of any 10 of those people that you -- you talked to? 11 A: Let's see. I can't remember. Maybe 12 MacIntyre, what's that other guy's name -- is Clements? 13 A couple of them anyways. 14 Q: And it's your recollection that -- 15 that you -- you told them that someday your group was 16 intending to takeover the park? 17 A: Oh yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And was this over the course 19 of the summer of 1995 that -- that these conversations 20 were? 21 A: Yeah. '95 and '94. I think maybe 22 even back to '93. 23 Q: And from your perspective what was 24 the nature of the takeover of the park to be? 25 A: The nature?
2131 Q: The nature of it? How? Yes. 2 A: Well we didn't want a big violent 3 confrontation. We just wanted a peaceful little 4 demonstration. 5 Q: And over the course of that Labour 6 Day weekend in 1995 so before the 4th, had you gone down 7 to the park yourself? 8 A: What was the question again? 9 Q: Did you go down to the park at any 10 time over the Labour Day weekend before September 4th, so 11 before the takeover? On the Saturday or Sunday for 12 example? 13 A: I wasn't right inside the park. But 14 we always drove by and drove right by the park along 15 Matheson Drive or whatever. 16 Q: Matheson Drive? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And did you witness any 19 unusual occurrences or activities in the park on -- on 20 that weekend or anything that was suspicious? 21 A: I don't know -- just -- it seemed 22 like there was a build up of police -- police all around 23 there. 24 Q: How so? 25 A: Just more police officers around than
2141 usual. 2 Q: Was it your intention to take over 3 the park using physical force or violence if necessary? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Can you tell the Commissioner what 6 your personal reasons were for wanting to take over the 7 park? 8 A: My personal reasons? Well, my 9 grandfather told me that there was a burial ground inside 10 there. Over the course of the few years that we were 11 camped out in the military base there, it kind of come 12 out that, yeah, there was a -- was a burial ground inside 13 there and it was supposed to be set aside and marked and 14 it wasn't. 15 Q: And did your grandfather tell you 16 that? 17 A: He never told me that -- that it was 18 supposed to be set aside and marked or nothing like that. 19 It was just that he told me that, yeah, there was a 20 burial ground in there and that my -- that his 21 grandfather used to live in there right along -- right 22 along that creek. He used to have a house there. 23 Q: Which creek is that? 24 A: I'm not sure what the creek is called. 25 Q: Is that Mud Creek?
2151 A: Dufus (phonetic) drain or whatever. 2 I'm not sure. 3 Q: Dufus? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. And when you say, your 6 grandfather, are you referring to Daniel Ray George? 7 A: Yeah and his grandfather would be 8 Albert Komoni (phonetic). 9 Q: Can you say that again? 10 A: Albert Comonie -- 11 Q: Thank you. 12 A: George. 13 Q: Did you have any other reasons -- 14 personal reasons -- for wanting to take over the park? 15 A: Let's see, our water reservoir is in 16 there that our -- like our water supply for the built-up 17 area goes right through there. 18 Q: You mean the one that was used by the 19 military base? 20 A: Yeah. 21 A: The water supply for the military base 22 is in the park in the -- I don't know what you would call 23 it -- the purification -- 24 Q: Facility? 25 A: Yeah, facility, or whatever.
2161 Q: Okay. Now with respect to the burial 2 ground issue, why would it -- why was it important for 3 you to actually go to this measure of taking over a whole 4 park in order -- because of a burial ground being there? 5 A: What was the question again? 6 Q: Why did you go to the measure of 7 taking over the whole park in order -- because there was 8 a burial ground there. What -- why take over the whole 9 park? Why was that necessary in your view? 10 A: Well, it was, like, the only way that 11 we could really draw attention to the problems or, like, 12 the things that -- concerns that we had and it was a way 13 -- pretty much seemed like the only way that we'd have 14 the -- or actually have anything done about it. 15 Q: Done about what? 16 A: Done about, like, our concerns -- 17 like, say, the -- 18 Q: Can you just tell me what those 19 concerns were? 20 A: Well, our concerns were that the 21 burial ground in there was not set aside and marked out 22 and that people were camping, partying and drinking and 23 having all kinds of whatever -- on a place that we 24 consider kind of -- pretty sacred. 25 Q: And -- I'm sorry -- the air
2171 conditioner just went on. Did you say that that was 2 sacred -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- and -- and -- so that those 5 activities weren't appropriate? 6 A: Yeah. 7 MS SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, I'm 8 wondering whether this might be an appropriate time to 9 break for the day. It's 4:30 and I will be moving on to 10 another topic. Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 12 this would be a good time. We set the break at 4:30 and 13 it's 4:30 now. We'll adjourn now until tomorrow morning. 14 We'll start early tomorrow. Now, we're going to start at 15 ten o'clock tomorrow morning. We'll adjourn from now 16 until tomorrow morning at ten o'clock. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Now, Mr. Commissioner, 18 just before we break for the day, as I understand it, 19 we'll be having -- will the cross-examination continue on 20 Thursday? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, what will happen 22 is the -- we'll finish tomorrow. Tomorrow morning we're 23 going to -- Mr. Simon will be in the witness box from 24 4:30 -- I mean from ten o'clock until noon approximately. 25 We'll break at noon until 1:00 and we'll
2181 start the motion at 1:00 and then we will then have to 2 ask Mr. Simon to come back on Thursday to finish his 3 cross-examination if it's still going on after we 4 complete the Motion, and we apologise for that, but it's 5 just one of those things of timing, Mr. Simon. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Until 8 tomorrow morning at ten o'clock. 9 10 (WITNESS RETIRES) 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 13 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, September 29th at 14 10:00 a.m. 15 16 --- Upon adjourning at 4:32 p.m. 17 18 19 Certified Correct, 20 21 22 23 ____________________ 24 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 25