11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 September 27th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Orkin ) (Np Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 MARCIA FLORA GEORGE SIMON, Resumed 4 5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Vilko Zbogar 14 6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 39 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. William Henderson 54 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Brian Eyolfson 57 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Karen Jones 68 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 215 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 --- Upon commencing at 10:30 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: An issue we were talk 13 -- thinking of dealing with was with the -- an issue with 14 Mr. Orkin, but Mr. Orkin and I were going to have some 15 further discussions; it's with respect to Mrs. Bressette. 16 Before we start, Mr. Sandler wanted to 17 raise an issue as to the timing of the motion. As you 18 know, the motion is scheduled to be heard after Mrs. 19 Simon has done her evidence and Mr. Sandler wanted to 20 raise an issue. 21 MR. MARK SANDLER: Good morning, 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 24 morning, Mr. Sandler. 25 MR. MARK SANDLER: Just very briefly I
71 wanted to raise an issue of scheduling with you. The 2 Commission very kindly accommodated both me and other 3 Counsel when we set the date for the hearing of the 4 Motion being today. 5 It's important to the OPP that I respond 6 and deal with -- with the Motion if at all possible. The 7 difficulty that I have is that, I certainly understand 8 the decision that's been made to finish the witness 9 before completing the Motion, but I then run into my own 10 scheduling problems and I can't speak for other Counsel 11 as -- as well. 12 I am absolutely unable to be here tomorrow 13 and I'm concerned, based upon the estimates that I heard 14 from the end of the last day when I wasn't here, that 15 there's a real likelihood or possibility at least that 16 Ms. Simon will be testifying for the balance of the day 17 and -- and therein is the difficulty. 18 And I'm just wondering whether or not we 19 could do two (2) things and -- and I apologise for asking 20 for the accommodation, but in fairness, it is an 21 important matter and -- and I had hoped that the matter 22 would be scheduled in a way that -- that all Counsel 23 could be accommodated. 24 I was going to respectfully suggest that - 25 - that the Motion be heard at the -- at the end of the
81 week and that the date actually be set aside for it, so 2 that if -- if we come to Thursday and a witness is in the 3 middle of the testimony, the witness simply be told that 4 that the witness, he or she need not attend on the 5 Thursday and the day be aside for -- for the hearing of 6 the Motion. 7 That way -- I know I can be present on -- 8 on Thursday, the matter could be dealt with, the -- the 9 evidence could be continued within the next few days and 10 I would -- I would hope that I could be of assistance to 11 the Commissioner in -- in dealing with the Motion. 12 That's my respectful request. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much, Mr. Sandler. 15 Mr. Millar, do you have any comment? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have no particular 17 comment with respect to that. I appreciate the -- My 18 Friend's concern. The -- if we are and I don't know -- 19 from our perspective we could it Thursday -- set aside 20 Thursday. I don't know if any of my other Friends have 21 any other comments. 22 The one person I know who's on her way up 23 right now and perhaps someone could -- we could call her, 24 is Ms. Spies who was coming up to be here around noon for 25 the motion. And -- but from our -- from the Commission's
91 perspective, we could simply agree to set aside Thursday 2 and if -- because when you look at the material it's 3 going to be a lengthy argument. 4 COMMISSION SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 It's Mr. Horton's motion. Perhaps we should hear from 6 him before anybody else. Mr. Horton...? 7 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Thank you, 8 Commissioner. Commissioner, in principle, I'm flexible 9 as to when the motion gets heard and want to be 10 accommodating to all counsel who need to be heard on it. 11 Obviously, my concern is that I -- I have 12 put the motion on the basis that it is important that the 13 issue be addressed immediately. And I'm flexible as to 14 what immediately means but if we really do go into a 15 slippery slope of just not being able to accommodate all 16 counsel, then a big part of the thrust of my motion will 17 be blunted just by that. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: We were ready to go 20 last week. We accommodated Mr. Sandler in terms of 21 holding it off until today. I had not understood when we 22 did that, that Mr. Sandler only had today available; 23 that's new information for me. Maybe others were aware 24 of it. 25 And in fact I had always understood when
101 we were talking about rescheduling this motion, that it 2 would be unpredictable as to exactly when it started 3 because it would start at the end of -- of a witness's 4 evidence. 5 Ms. Spies, obviously, had the same 6 understanding because she's coming up to coincide with 7 the end of this witness's testimony and it's pretty clear 8 I think the motion will take the better part of the day 9 given the number of submissions that have been reflected 10 in the written submissions you've received. 11 So I -- I want to be flexible but if it 12 turns out that it's -- that we're sacrificing Ms. Spies's 13 convenience for Mr. Sandler's convenience and then as a 14 result of all of that, I end up not having my motion 15 heard for another couple of weeks -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 17 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- then it's more 18 than a matter of convenience. From my perspective it's a 19 matter of my motion not getting dealt with appropriately 20 so. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely, 22 Mr. Horton. Let's see if Thursday suits everybody then 23 that's okay with you? 24 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: That's fine with 25 me --
111 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 2 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: --- I'm -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We won't put 4 it off any farther than that. Let's see if Thursday 5 suits everybody, then we'll leave it at that. If not, 6 then we'll have to come back and decide what to do. 7 Does Thursday suit everybody? 8 I'm seeing only nodding, no shaking so 9 everybody seems to be in agreement with Thursday being a 10 date set aside to hear the motion. We'll leave the whole 11 day for it and that's -- 12 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, and I 13 think it is important, then, if we do that with -- we do 14 two (2) things. First, that we not commit to that until 15 we know Ms. Spies's position on it -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 17 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- and hopefully 18 we'll know that shortly. And the second thing is that we 19 do adopt Mr. Sandler's suggestion of starting on 20 Thursday, first thing in the morning -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Like nine 22 o'clock. 23 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- regardless of 24 where we are. An early start would be even better. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And start
121 with it regardless of where we are with respect to 2 witnesses. 3 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Exactly. And then 4 we know that we will be able to deal with it. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 6 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Then with -- on 7 those, I'm -- I'm comfortable with all of that. Thank 8 you, Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much, Mr. Horton. Can somebody get in touch with 11 Ms. Spies? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I -- what we'll 13 do is we can -- I'll go and make arrangements to try to 14 get a hold of Ms. Spies. Just so that -- now our next 15 witness is due for tomorrow morning and we have -- well, 16 given the -- the length of time set aside, that everybody 17 has said for Mrs. Simon, I don't think that's going to be 18 a problem. But we had planned and advised him that he 19 would be on tap tomorrow morning. So -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It may be at 21 the end of the day that we'll have no witnesses -- 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's -- maybe. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and 24 perhaps we'll adjourn early. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. But the -- now
131 -- let me just say the -- one of the reasons why that 2 it's important that we do Mrs. Simon, Mrs. Simon was here 3 for four (4) days last week waiting to be reached and I 4 would like to make sure that we finish Mrs. Simon before 5 -- and so Thursday morning's fine. 6 I'll just excuse myself, Commissioner, and 7 make arrangements to try to get a hold of Ms. Spies. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much, Mr. Millar. 10 So that we will continue now with the 11 examination of Marcia. Good morning. 12 13 MARCIA FLORA GEORGE SIMON, Resumed 14 15 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 17 recall who was the next party. I've lost track. Let me 18 just get back on the beam. Who -- 19 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Good morning, 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long did 22 you indicate you might be, I forgot. 23 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I said fifteen (15) 24 minutes to half an hour. It's probably closer to the 25 latter.
141 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Close to a 2 half hour? 3 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Carry 5 on. 6 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I've put together a 7 small compilation of documents that I intend to refer -- 8 which the Registrar is handing up now and I believe a 9 copy has been given to Ms. Simon. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 12 Q: Good morning, Mrs. Simon. 13 A: Good morning. 14 Q: My name is Vilko Zbogar. I represent 15 the Estate of Dudley George and the -- and the George 16 family group in this inquiry. 17 And before I start I should say that none 18 of us can fully appreciate what you've -- what you've 19 gone through but we -- I thank you for your courage in 20 coming here and helping us start to understand. 21 The first thing I want to do is -- is go 22 through a document which I understand is an OPP document 23 which sets out a sequence of events of September the 6th, 24 1995. 25 Basically what I want to do is check to
151 what extent we can rely on this synopsis and give you an 2 opportunity to respond. Certain things in there that 3 seem to contradict things that -- that we heard the other 4 day. 5 Specifically I'm referring a document 6 called -- labelled at the top "sequence of events, 7 September 6th, 1996". I think that's a typo and should 8 refer to 1995. 9 Do you have that in front of you? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: I'm not going to go through all of 12 it, but starting around the fourth line of that synopsis, 13 it talks -- it states: 14 "While en route to this location" 15 That's a reference to the intersection 16 of -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me -- 18 where does this document come from? 19 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I understand this is 20 an OPP document. I don't know the exact -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It was in 22 the -- 23 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: -- source. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the 25 Disclosures? Do you have a number for it? I just --
161 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I have -- to be 2 honest, I have not been able to find a document number 3 for it in the Inquiry Documents. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you know 5 where this document came from, Mr. Worme? 6 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm not sure exactly, 7 Mr. Commissioner, where the top document comes from, but 8 I do recognize some of the other documents. They are, in 9 fact, the -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The other 11 documents? 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Yeah, the other 13 documents in -- in this particular package, yes. Now, 14 what I can do is I can, during the course of the break, 15 perhaps, try to locate some document numbers for that and 16 supply that to the rest of Counsel. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume 18 that all Counsel have seen this document. You have it 19 now? I have it, I just wanted to know if you know what 20 it is, that's all. Yes...? 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 22 wonder if I can help a little bit? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Last week what had 25 happened was the Government of Ontario had passed out a
171 package of documents and they were documents that had 2 been discussed among Counsel and with Commission 3 regarding documents that had arisen in the course of 4 civil litigation. 5 And I received a copy of the document 6 that's being referred to in that package. So it wasn't 7 part of the Commission's documents and it's not on a 8 database so far as I know. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: But I believe that -- I 11 know I and I believe the other Counsel received that 12 package last week. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: The reason I'm 15 referring to this is it seems to be a summary of at least 16 some other statements and it may be useful to start on 17 this basis so, if you will, I'd propose to ask some 18 questions about this and the contents of it. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can't 20 tell who prepared the document, can you? 21 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I can't tell. I -- I 22 think what Ms. -- Ms. Jones said is about all that I know 23 as well. So... 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have to see 25 where we go.
181 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I'll also be referring 2 in the course of this to some -- some OPP officer's notes 3 and statements as well. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 7 Q: On the fourth line of this synopsis 8 starts -- the sentence in the middle of that line there: 9 "While en route to this location..." 10 And if you read the previous sentence, 11 that refers to the intersection of Highway 21 and Army 12 Camp Road. 13 "... a vehicle exit the Army Camp and 14 proceeds southbound towards Highway 15 Number 21." 16 Stopping there, Mrs. Simon at the time 17 that you exited the camp on the night of September 6th, 18 1995, at -- I understand that was at the main gates of 19 the Camp? 20 A: Yes, it was. 21 Q: And at that time there was no 22 roadblock -- at that time there was no roadblock between 23 the gates of the Army Camp and the intersection of 24 Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 25 A: No, there wasn't.
191 Q: Continuing where I left off from that 2 sequence of events it states: 3 "This vehicle fails to stop at 4 intersection of Highway 21 and Army 5 Camp Road where a stop sign is 6 located." 7 That doesn't refer to a roadblock as well, 8 although, it does refer to a stop sign at that location 9 but first of all, is there a stop sign there at that 10 intersection? 11 A: There is. 12 Q: And do you have to pass that stop 13 sign in order to get from the main gates of the Army Camp 14 to the intersection -- or onto Highway 21? 15 A: You do. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: If you turn to the next page of that 20 Brief of Documents that I've given you, there's notes 21 taken by a senior Constable Ron Bell. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: If you go down to the last chunk on 24 that -- on that first page there under the time 23:10 -- 25 A: Yes.
201 Q: -- the third line under there says: 2 "Failed to stop for stop sign at 21." 3 If you read the line above that it says: 4 "As I was driving northbound" 5 And I can't read the rest. 6 A: "I saw a car leave -- " 7 Q: And that's presumably your car, I 8 imagine. 9 A: I don't know. I wasn't the only car 10 that exited. I know I definitely came to a full stop. I 11 was very careful not to give the police that were on the 12 inside curb there any reason to pursue me. I signalled, 13 came to a full stop and proceeded to make my left-hand 14 turn to go towards northbound. 15 Q: So in other words, if -- if Constable 16 Bell is referring to your vehicle, then he's mistaken 17 when he says you failed to stop? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: If I can return to the first page of 20 sequence of events, if you'll flip back to that. And 21 continuing where I left off it says: 22 "This vehicle is then pursued by PC 23 Bell and Lorch who are followed by 24 Branston (phonetic) and Duggan 25 (phonetic) in a second unit."
211 I don't expect you to know those names but 2 I trust you can probably confirm that there were two (2) 3 units following you that you observed? 4 A: I had gone for some distance and then 5 I noticed I was being followed. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: And I didn't know -- we were fearful. 8 As we turned the corner I don't know where the officers 9 came from, but my mother started screaming that they were 10 going to shoot us. And she claimed there was suddenly 11 officers on the opposite side of the road with shotguns 12 levelled at us. And I told her to duck down in the car 13 and proceeded to the pay phone. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: And I was careful to keep within the 16 speed limit as well. 17 Q: Thank you. I'm just getting to that. 18 And -- and I know that observance of -- of traffic 19 regulations is the -- probably the least of the 20 significant issues on this evening, but the reason I'm 21 asking these questions is there seem to be some -- some 22 differences in some of the documents, so it might be 23 useful for all of us to maybe get some clarification on 24 that to see what your thoughts are on those -- those 25 issues.
221 Continuing in the sequence of documents -- 2 sequence of events where I left off, it says: 3 "The lead cruiser has full emergency 4 equipment activated and follows the 5 vehicles at speeds of a hundred and 6 forty (140) kilometres per hour. After 7 approximately two (2) kilometres they 8 are advised to de-activate emergency 9 lights and follow the vehicle." 10 Do you see that? 11 A: I do. Does this mean the police 12 cruiser was going at a hundred and forty (140) 13 kilometres? 14 Q: Well, I'll ask you about that in a 15 second. There's just two (2) things. It talks about the 16 speed and it talks about the emergency lights being 17 activated. 18 So before I get to the speed issue, as I 19 understand it from your evidence the other day, there 20 were no lights activated on a police cruiser following 21 you when you exited -- exited the Park, but that the 22 lights -- 23 A: I didn't come -- 24 Q: -- came on -- 25 A: -- from the Park.
231 Q: Oh sorry, the camp. I -- as I 2 understand your evidence, there were no police lights 3 flashing when you first exited the camp. 4 A: No. 5 Q: But that they did come on sometime 6 after you exited. 7 A: After I was well on my way down 8 Highway 21. 9 Q: Right. And your concern at that time 10 was getting some help for your son or whoever may have 11 been shot in the Park that day, so you may have not known 12 exactly when the police emergency lights were activated 13 or de-activated. 14 A: No. But I wasn't immediately 15 pursued. It was after I had gone down the road a ways 16 and I was puzzled as to why I was even being pursued and 17 I had my terrified mother beside me, laying down in the 18 front seat after being shocked that we were almost shot 19 turning at the intersection there. 20 Q: Right. So it -- it took some time 21 before a police -- it took some time after you left the 22 camp that you observed police approach you closer and 23 closer with their emergency lights on? 24 A: After I left the camp and after I 25 came to a full stop and after I proceeded down Highway
241 21. I was quite a distance down the road before I 2 noticed someone coming up behind. 3 Q: Okay. Now I referred you just a 4 second ago to the police notes of Constable Ron Bell. 5 For the record, that's Inquiry Document 1002648, Volume 6 XI. 7 Now we don't see anything there about the 8 speed of the -- the -- that anybody was driving at that 9 time. But if you turn to the next document, which is a 10 statement of -- of Constable Ron Bell and that's Inquiry 11 Document 1002649, do you have in front of you? 12 A: The typed -- the typed one? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: If you turn to Page 2 of that 16 document, the first full paragraph that begins with the 17 words "I followed". Do you see that paragraph? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And in the middle of that it says -- 20 it starts with the sentence: 21 "We had travelled about two (2) 22 kilometres by this point. I turned the 23 emergency lights off and continued to 24 follow. Our speed at this time was one 25 hundred and forty (140) Kilometres per
251 hour." 2 And you'll -- you'll recognize that that 3 reference to hundred and forty (140) kilometres per hour 4 is the same as the one that's in the sequence of 5 documents. 6 A: Sorry? It's the same as what? 7 Q: Constable Bell's statement, which 8 refers to speed of one hundred and forty (140) kilometres 9 is the same as -- as what the synopsis refers to as the 10 speed of -- of the pursuit. 11 So I want to ask you some questions about 12 that. But first of all, what's the speed limit on 13 Highway 21 there? 14 A: I believe it's eighty (80) kilometres 15 an hour, and that's -- I was careful not to exceed that. 16 Q: You weren't travelling at speeds of 17 one hundred and forty (140) kilometres per hour? 18 A: I wasn't, but it sounds like they 19 were. 20 Q: So you were probably travelling about 21 eighty (80) kilometres hour -- an hour, or thereabouts? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: I'm not going to take you to the rest 24 of this sequence of events, but I'd -- instead, I want to 25 take you to the following document in that -- in that
261 Brief that I've given to you, and that's the police notes 2 of Constable Steve Lorch; do you have those? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: On the first page of his notes, near 5 the bottom, it says: 6 "Approximately 2310..." 7 Do you see that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: It says: 10 "Approximately 2310 we left area and 11 drove southbound to 21 and observed a 12 vehicle pull out of Army Camp and..." 13 I can't read the next word, 14 "...to 21. We turned eastbound 21 with 15 it and activated lights..." 16 There's a reference to your license plate, 17 it says; 18 "...two occupants, vehicle continued to 19 drive approximately seventy-five (75) 20 to eighty (80) kilometres per hour and 21 didn't stop." 22 Now I notice it doesn't talk about failing 23 to stop at a stop sign, but it does talk about the speed 24 of travel, which is seventy-five (75) to eighty (80) 25 kilometres per hour.
271 A: That would be accurate. 2 Q: Okay. I believe a last document in 3 the Brief that I've provided to you is the OPP logger 4 tapes of police radio communications taking place in that 5 area on the night -- on September 6th, 1995. 6 Now this is Inquiry Document 2000609, 7 which is Volume X, and it's described as the Logger Tape 8 for the Chatham Com Centre, September 6th, 1995, 2300 to 9 0035 hours. 10 Now, attached two (2) pages of that logger 11 tape transcript, pages 6 and 7, which are there before 12 you. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: On the bottom half of page 6 talks 15 about the pursuit, it starts: 16 "Lima2 from Delta: Delta, this is 17 Alpha, we read you, we're going by the 18 tack, go ahead." 19 And then this is the part that refers to 20 the -- what the police were doing at that time, it says: 21 "Delta, as we were coming up Army Camp 22 Road, a vehicle left the Army Base. We 23 are in low speed pursuit, do you wish 24 to (inaudible) continue or attempt to 25 stop this vehicle? Eastbound 21.
281 (Inaudible). You are pursuing, 2 continue to follow." 3 There's a reference to your license plate. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Then the next line is: 6 "10-4, continue to follow, do not light 7 up." 8 And turning over: 9 "(Inaudible). Deactivating our lights 10 and we're continuing follow." 11 And then: 12 "Confirmed that the second cruiser is 13 following us." 14 I'm going to ask you some questions about 15 that little excerpt, and specifically, starting at -- on 16 page 6, where it talks about the low-speed pursuit; does 17 that -- I don't know what low-speed -- they mean by low- 18 speed, but what's your -- what's your interpretation of 19 what that means? 20 A: That I was within the speed limit. I 21 can only guess -- 22 Q: Of course. 23 A: -- I wasn't going really slowly, 24 but -- 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Sorry to interrupt My
291 Friend. 2 Mr. Commissioner, it's -- I'm just having 3 a bit of a problem here. I'm not sure that it's entirely 4 fair to ask this witness to comment on what is written in 5 a document that she had no part in producing. And it's 6 along the lines of other issues that had been raised with 7 previous witnesses and I just hope that we don't get into 8 that again. 9 I think it's entirely fair for her comment 10 on documents that she had produced or where she's 11 referenced in it. But in terms of trying to interpret 12 what it means from somebody else's entries, I'm just not 13 certain that it's fair. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Zbogar, 15 what do you intend to do? 16 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: That's -- that's I 17 think all the questions I had on that point in any event, 18 so. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 22 Q: Then, Mrs. Simon, do you know who Ron 23 Bell is? 24 A: No, I don't. Should I? 25 Q: Should you? I don't -- I don't know.
301 And -- and as Mr. Worme said -- or suggested, we will 2 likely be asking him directly what -- or why his 3 statement says that there was a pursuit at speeds of one 4 hundred and forty (140) kilometres per hour. But -- 5 well, actually why his notes -- sorry, let me start. 6 We will likely be asking Constable Ron 7 Bell why his statement says that he was going at speeds 8 of one hundred and forty (140) kilometres per hour but 9 his notes do not. 10 But I'm wondering if you are aware of any 11 reason why somebody who is following you at night might 12 be reporting that you were going at speeds of one forty 13 (140) -- I don't know if you have information that 14 might -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How can she 16 possibly know the answer to that question? I don't think 17 that she could possibly know the answer to that question. 18 THE WITNESS: And I don't. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't, I 20 assume. 21 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I was just using 22 information that might -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: These notes 24 and his -- the typed statement and his notes seem to be 25 inconsistent.
311 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I guess what I'm 2 asking is, whether she's aware of any explanation for the 3 one hundred and forty (140) kilometres per hour 4 reference. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She already 6 said that she didn't, so I think that's good enough. 7 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Fine. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 10 Q: I want to move onto a completely 11 different area which -- going back to, well, the land and 12 first of all, I imagine you're somewhat aware of your 13 people's history including that there was a Treaty in the 14 early 1800's. 15 The Stony Point beachfront lands were 16 surrendered in 1928 and that the rest of Stony Point was 17 expropriated in -- in 1942? 18 A: We always say it was appropriated. 19 There's a difference between being appropriated and 20 expropriated. Yes, I'm aware that our territory was 21 appropriated under the War Measures Act. 22 Q: And the lands -- in addition to that, 23 you're aware that the lands which eventually became part 24 of Ipperwa -- which eventually became Ipperwash 25 Provincial Park are part of your people's ancestral
321 lands? 2 A: They are. Our grandfather Komoni 3 (phonetic) who we -- that's what we know him as, Albert 4 George use to live there. 5 Q: And are you aware that -- or is it 6 your position that those lands were part of your people's 7 original Treaty reserve lands set aside as a reserve in 8 perpetuity? 9 A: They were, they are. 10 Q: Now when I -- when we refer to the 11 original Treaty reserve lands at Stony Point, those 12 include -- I'm just wondering if you can confirm this or 13 not, both the lands that were appropriated for the Army 14 camp and the lands which became Ipperwash Provincial 15 Park? 16 A: They do. 17 Q: And do you consider those Stony Point 18 lands to be part of your family's and your people's 19 birthright? 20 A: I do. 21 Q: This is where the Creator placed you? 22 A: And they were set aside by Treaty. 23 Q: Now your family you testified last 24 week was dispossessed of its lands and involuntarily 25 moved away.
331 Now this dispossession began before you 2 were born but has it nevertheless affected your own life? 3 A: It certainly has. 4 Q: How has is -- how has it done so? 5 A: We were left without our homeland to 6 live on until we moved back in in '93. When my parents 7 got married they didn't have a home in a community. They 8 were married in Oil City and lived there at the beginning 9 of our -- our lives and there were a series of moves. 10 I -- I hear stories of them living in 11 Brights Grove and -- before we eventually were able to 12 acquire land in Kettle Point from my mother's grandfather 13 and it was only through that, that they were able. 14 If we didn't have that family connection 15 we wouldn't have been able to get a home established, 16 even in Kettle Point even with our other relatives. So - 17 - so there was that. The other thing I feel very, very 18 badly about is that we missed out on the whole area of 19 our community development leadership of our people. 20 I have seen the documents that our 21 grandfather carefully kept -- well, he was a community 22 leader and kept careful records. I was very proud of 23 what he could do. And we skipped a generation where we 24 didn't have access, because we were without our community 25 to develop that leadership in amongst our own people.
341 That's one of the -- the things that we 2 missed out in. In the 1960's when they began setting up 3 the band administrations in all of the First Nations 4 communities, we were resident in our community and we 5 missed out on that as well. 6 And hand in hand with that was all the 7 development of the personal potential to take on these 8 positions of administration that were -- rested in the 9 hands of an Indian Agent before then. 10 Our churches -- our churches, our schools 11 were non-existent and I trained hard with the 12 anticipation that I would one day be a teacher in my 13 community, and we are without that to this day. 14 I have to drive quite a few miles each day 15 to go to work when I would love nothing more than work 16 amongst my own people and teach them some of the things 17 that I have been taught by our Elders. 18 Q: In terms of the land and the land 19 base, what -- what was the difference in -- in the land 20 that you were able to have and -- and use -- or that your 21 family was able to -- to have and to use before the 22 appropriation as opposed to afterwards and up 'til today? 23 A: My father was just coming of age in 24 1942 and would have received a forty (40) acre allotment 25 to establishment a residence for us and to provide for
351 us. 2 And when we were able to get a little 3 piece of land in Kettle Point it was an area that was 4 gravel pits and we eventually filled those up by 5 collecting people's garbage in the summer time with the 6 cottagers and he bulldozed it over and eventually built 7 it up a little. 8 He did try -- my father did try and always 9 looked forward to the day that he could do a little bit 10 of farming. He tried raising pigs and -- and chickens 11 and ducks but it -- it was difficult in the little, wee 12 piece of land that he had there. That -- that wasn't 13 very successful. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: When I had a section of that little 16 piece of land signed over to me, it needed to be built 17 up. When -- when they put the culvert in the ditch, the 18 ditch was actually higher than the land and they were 19 chuckling at that and we had to get -- I -- I said, well 20 over a hundred (100) loads of fill in to build it up so 21 that we could use it year round rather than just in the 22 summer time at the driest part of the year, otherwise we 23 had to Park at the road. 24 Q: Mrs. Bonnie Bressette testified last 25 week that in her view, the 1928 surrender of the treaty
361 lands which later became Ipperwash Provincial Park was 2 not a fair or valid transfer of treaty lands. 3 Do you share her view? 4 A: I do. 5 Q: Do you believe that it is fair for 6 the Province of Ontario to continue to claim those Treaty 7 lands? 8 A: I do not. I always felt that -- that 9 the history was forgotten, they weren't aware of the 10 laws, the Treaties that pertain to us. As an example, 11 they quickly that forget that that burial ground is 12 sacred to us, where my aunts and uncles are buried. And 13 in the '60s they were already digging them up. That's 14 only twenty (20) years later. 15 Q: Do you see restoration of your Treaty 16 lands as being necessary for, I guess, some real healing 17 to begin with in your community, and between your people 18 and -- and other Canadian people...? 19 A: I do. I think there's a general 20 awareness now that we do indeed have a right to the land, 21 but when we first went in, we were viewed as criminals 22 and -- and terrorists and -- but we have a sincere desire 23 to go and exercise our legal rights to our territory. 24 That's all. We're not taking from anyone else, we're 25 just taking back, to live on, what is ours.
371 Q: And picking up on that, when -- it 2 appears that on the night of September 6, 1995, when you 3 and other members of your community were engaged in an 4 effort to assert your rights to that land, and to your 5 ancestral and treaty lands, there was an extraordinary 6 level of force used by OPP personnel against the 7 occupiers, and -- and also against you and your mother. 8 Would you agree with that so far? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Do you see any relationship or 11 connection between the nature or level of violence used 12 against you and your mother and against other occupiers, 13 and the meaning of this stand that you were all taking to 14 assert your land rights against the Federal and 15 Provincial Governments? 16 Do you see any relationship or connection 17 between those two, the actual force used and the stand 18 you were taking? 19 A: No. 20 Q: If -- what other explanation might 21 you have, if any, for the kind of force that was deployed 22 against you? Do you have any thoughts on why that may 23 have occurred? 24 A: I believe that some of that was done 25 because of a lack of knowledge of our historic rights.
381 Had they been fully aware of that -- I always felt that 2 they didn't really know who the true lawbreakers were, 3 and they came after us. No one went after the 4 lawbreakers that were violating our Treaty. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. Thank you, Mrs. Simon. 6 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. Who's going to -- Mr. Ross, are you next, or 9 Mr. Rosenthal, which one...? 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, but we're at 11 the end, if you recall...? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's your 13 client, but...? 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I guess we could... 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 16 suppose it's -- 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, it might 18 be a -- Ms. -- if I could just interrupt for a second, 19 the next person I think would be Mr. Henderson, no, 20 excuse me, it would be Mr. Ross. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But Ms. Spies is on 23 the way, and Ms. Vella spoke to her, she's got a problem 24 on Thursday, so perhaps Mr. Sander -- Ms. Spies can have 25 a discussion with each other, but seriously, I guess
391 we'll have to wait until Ms. Spies gets here. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 3 obviously, we are not going to put it over to fix a date, 4 so we have to fix a date, if it's not Thursday, it has to 5 be very soon, if not this week -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, it's -- yes, in 7 fairness to Mr. Horton -- Mr. Horton -- we wanted to have 8 it -- Mr. Horton asked to have it heard this week and I 9 think it's appropriate that we hear it sometime this 10 week. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We will wait 12 for Ms. Spies and see if we can sort it out, and if we 13 can't, then we will just have to fix a date. 14 Okay, Mr. Ross...? 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. 16 Commissioner. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 19 Q: Ms. Simon, as you might remember from 20 1993, my name is Anthony Ross. 21 A: Yes, I do. 22 Q: And I represent the current residents 23 at Aazhoodena. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, Ms. Simon, the -- a few
401 questions that I would like to ask you. Now the first is 2 really just a matter of a housekeeping item. This 3 morning we were given the document sequence of events 4 which was refer -- which you've looked at. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: I'd like you to turn, please, to one 7 page in, there's some handwritten notes. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now, you've been teaching for how 10 long? 11 A: Over thirty (30) years. 12 Q: Over thirty (30) years. My 13 experience is that memory fades with time. Is this 14 consistent with your experience? 15 A: Yes, to certain events. 16 Q: Yes. So that notes that which were 17 made when something happened are usually more reliable 18 than creating the story sometime later? Generally? 19 A: They should be if they -- 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: -- were accurately done in the first 22 place. 23 Q: Yes. Well that's it. Because I'm 24 looking at these notes and at 2310 -- I've seen these 25 this morning for the first time, it reads:
411 "As I was driving northbound", 2 A: That's -- 3 Q: Is that your understanding, 4 northbound? 5 A: That's the opposite direction. 6 Q: That's my point. I'm going to get 7 right -- that's what I just want to get through to you. 8 Now, you eventually wound up at a service 9 station north of the camp, am I -- I -- is that correct 10 or is that south? 11 A: East. 12 Q: It's east. Highway 20 run -- runs 13 what? East and west or north and south? 14 A: I thought it was east and west. 15 Q: I see, well perhaps we've got some 16 geography to straighten out. But here the driver is 17 saying: 18 "As I was driving northbound I saw a 19 car leave CFB [Canadian Forces Base] 20 and go southbound". 21 So he's driving in one direction going 22 north. He says the vehicle is going in the opposite 23 direction. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, your vehicle left Aazhoodena, am
421 I correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: You got onto what is called Army Camp 4 Road, am I correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then it turned left going in the 7 general direction of Grande Bend? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. Fine. Thank you; that covers 10 what I want from you on this. I will deal with Officer 11 Bell when he shows up, if he shows up. 12 Now I want to ask you, and I must tell you 13 Ms. Simon, I'm going to try to capitalize on your 14 education in some of the questions I'm going to be asking 15 here. 16 I take it that you've done a fair amount 17 of reading with respect to the historic rights of your 18 people and the Stony Point lands? 19 A: Yes, to some extent. 20 Q: Yeah. Now, I'm going to ask you to - 21 - to follow me on -- on a little mind venture. 22 In 1763 -- and Mr. Commissioner, I'm turn 23 -- I'm referring to Tab 3 of the report of Ms. Holmes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 3 of the 25 report of Ms. Holmes?
431 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Yes, Joan Holmes. 2 THE WITNESS: Is that the Royal 3 Proclamation? 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: The Royal Proclamation, 5 yes. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 8 Q: Now, I've been trying to just think 9 that the Royal Proclamation sort of separated the lands 10 which we now call Canada into two (2) categories, really. 11 There was those on the east which were classified to some 12 degree as settled lands -- 13 A: Sorry, what was -- 14 Q: I'm saying -- 15 A: The lands were on -- 16 Q: On the east. On the eastern 17 seaboard. 18 A: Oh. 19 Q: Like is a section of Newfoundland, 20 Nova Scotia. Is there any way we can flash this up? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Simon is 22 definitely an educated woman but she's not being offered 23 as a expert. 24 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Absolutely. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You know
441 that? 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Absolutely. I'm not -- 3 I'm not going to seek expert opinion. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, bear 9 with me for a minute, not everything is on. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 14 Q: That's the slide I wanted to -- you 15 to look at, Ms. Simon. I guess it's going to be flashed 16 up at a different scale. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: So, Ms. Simon what I really want to 21 just identify that your -- you see, Ms. Simon, Ms. Holmes 22 gave evidence and she identified for our assistance the 23 dividing line between settled lands and what would become 24 Indian lands consistent with the Royal Proclamation. 25 You're nodding, is that a "yes"?
451 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 2 not sure that she was here for that testimony. I don't 3 know if she was or not. 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Okay, fine. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Were you 6 here for that testimony? 7 THE WITNESS: Only for part of Ms. Holmes 8 testimony. 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well I -- I can get it 10 another way. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 13 Q: Ms. Simon, it's our understanding 14 that the four (4) or five (5) pieces of land which -- 15 which later constituted the Sarnia Reserve, the Moore 16 Township Reserve, the Stony Point and Kettle Point lands 17 were never ever ceded to Her Majesty the Queen. 18 Is this your understanding? 19 A: It is. 20 Q: Yeah. So as unceded lands the title 21 remained at all times Aboriginal title? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And this continued up to and 24 including 1942? 25 A: Yes.
461 Q: When there was some level of 2 interference with that title? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And as far as you know, was there an 5 expectation that -- that interference with the title 6 would be addressed and resolved at some time? 7 A: At the end of the war, our territory 8 was suppose to be returned. 9 Q: Yes. Now, Ms. Simon, you grew up in 10 a family which had been moved from Stony Point, am I 11 correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And your mother was one of the 14 leaders from the Stony Point group which was -- which 15 later settled at Kettle Point. Am I correct? 16 A: Yes. She was originally from Kettle 17 Point but married our father who was from Stony Point. 18 And by the usual thing is the wife became a member of the 19 Band where the husband was from. 20 Q: And as far as the occupants in 1993 21 is concerned, your brother Glenn was one of the 22 occupants, am I correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you supported that occupation? 25 Am I correct?
471 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: And your mother supported the 3 occupation? 4 A: Oh, she certainly did. 5 Q: Yes. And other members of your 6 immediate family supported the occupation? 7 A: They did. 8 Q: Yes. Now this occupation, was it 9 intended to be -- to secure the land for individuals, or 10 was it a group effort? 11 A: It was to be for the whole of the 12 territory, for the whole of our nation. 13 Q: For the whole of? 14 A: Our First Nation. 15 Q: Yes. And was the occupation intended 16 to -- to -- to change government policy? 17 A: Yes. To recognize that -- that this 18 was to be corrected. That they had somehow made a 19 terrible mistake in alienating us from our territory when 20 it had been guaranteed previously by Treaty to remain 21 unceded. 22 Q: And I understand that around the time 23 of the Treaty there was some 2 million acres which was 24 ceded to the Crown. 25 A: Somewhere thereabouts.
481 Q: Yes. 2 A: I don't remember the exact details. 3 Q: But it was a very large piece of 4 land? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I want to confirm with you that 7 there was nobody in your family or the group which may -- 8 which took the occupation in 1993, which attempted to 9 occupy any other lands except those unceded lands? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: Is it fair to say, then, that the 12 Stony Point people accepted the deal they had made with 13 the British Crown and was all just trying to make sure 14 that that deal was maintained? 15 A: Yes. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Ms. Simon, I'm asking to think up to 20 and including the 5th of September 1995; that was before 21 the incident with Dudley. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Right. Now, did you support the 24 occupation from 1993 through 1995 -- 25 A: I --
491 Q: -- up to the 5th of September? 2 A: I did. 3 Q: Yeah. And is it fair to say that but 4 for the shooting of Dudley George, you would have 5 continued your full support for a peaceful occupation of 6 those lands until government changed its policy? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And is it also fair to say that in 9 spite of the shooting of Dudley George, that there is 10 still substantial support for the occupation until 11 government changes its policy? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Now, Ms. Simon, you've got a 14 residence at Kettle Point? 15 A: I do. 16 Q: And you've also got opportunity to 17 stay at the lands now at Aazhoodena? 18 A: I do. Building 46. The former Roman 19 Catholic chapel. 20 Q: Now, I -- I believe that the 21 Commission is going to have some difficulties as far as 22 recommendations for the settlement of this problem. 23 Would you -- could you assist the 24 Commissioner as far as who all should be involved in 25 final discussions to resolve this problem, in your view?
501 A: In my view it should be the federal 2 government. 3 Q: And sitting at the table with whom? 4 A: With the Stony Point people. 5 Q: And could you see any settlement 6 which will be permanent, acceptable, and lasting which 7 does not specifically involve the Stony Point people? 8 A: Never. 9 Q: So that if the federal government 10 attempts to arrive at a settlement just with the 11 government from the Kettle and Stony -- the Chippewa 12 Kettle and Stony there is a -- could you see that 13 resolving the impasse which currently exists? 14 A: No. No I don't. Many of us feel 15 very strongly that Kettle Point has their hands full with 16 managing their affairs there, and are incapable of 17 managing ours. 18 And our people, we can go through and list 19 the grievances of how unfairly we've been treated over 20 the years there, and that's partly because the Council 21 there is mandated to look after the affairs of Kettle 22 Point. And rightly so, if something pertaining to us 23 came up, that would be their priority, that's what 24 they're mandated to look after. 25 We need people that will be wholeheartedly
511 looking after the affairs of the Stony Point people in 2 seeing that our community is restored. 3 Q: Now, tell me, Ms. Simon, were you at 4 Aazhoodena on September 6, 1995? 5 A: I was. 6 Q: Yes. You were there during the day? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the evening? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Up until the time of the shooting and 11 -- and then you left in an effort to get help? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Now, just again for the assistance of 14 the Commissioner, did anything occur during that day, 15 September the 6th, down into the evening up until you 16 left, which you saw as a problem which could have 17 provoked the level of police reaction that it did? 18 A: No, not -- not anything unusual from 19 the previous days. 20 Q: So it was really an occupation at one 21 level which started in 1993 and went up until July 1995? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And a second level of occupation from 24 July 1995 until September 5, 1995? 25 A: Yes.
521 Q: Including the occupying of the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And as far as the occupation of the 4 Park is concerned, were you aware that there was 5 suggestions of a Cemetery in that Park area? 6 A: I was. 7 Q: I see. 8 A: I was also aware of other burials. 9 As I said earlier, I had been approached an Elder, 10 Rachael Shawkence, with concerns about the burials that 11 were being dug up when they built the access road from 12 Port Franks, called The Outer Drive, and pleaded with me 13 to try to do something about it at that time, and I was 14 not able to. 15 Q: Ms. Simon, in spite of the death -- 16 unfortunate death of Dudley George, do you see anything 17 which would cause the residents of Stony Point to back 18 away from the occupation of those lands? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Thank you very much, Ms. Simon. 21 Those are my questions. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much, Mr. Ross. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Commissioner, I 25 wonder if this might be an appropriate time for the
531 morning break? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Who's next? 3 I think it's Mr. Henderson? You indicated you would be 4 very short; should we have our break now, or would you 5 like to go before the break? It's up to you, Mr. 6 Henderson. 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I will be 8 reasonably brief. Before or after the break, at you 9 pleasure, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's do it 11 now then, if that's all right with you. Is that all 12 right with you? Are you all right? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, I'd probably 14 have a better break to get one more out of the way. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 16 didn't hear you. 17 THE WITNESS: I would probably have a 18 better break to get one more out of the way. 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I hope you're not 20 being too literal, Mrs. Simon, when you say, get one more 21 out of the way,. 22 THE WITNESS: I mean, I feel like I'm 23 being attacked up here, and one more down. 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: No, not at all. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's very
541 difficult for a witness to face so many cross- 2 examinations. 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: 5 Q: As you may know, but for the record, 6 my name is Bill Henderson, and Mr. George and I are 7 Counsel for the Chipewas at Kettle and Stony Point. 8 The few questions I have relate to -- to 9 your family and the connections to Stony Point, and you 10 had indicated earlier that your mother was from Kettle 11 Point, originally? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And her maiden name was Shawnoo? 14 A: George. 15 Q: I'm sorry? 16 A: George. 17 Q: Her maiden name was George? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: I'm sorry. And her father was? 20 A: Edgar Shawnoo. 21 Q: Edgar Shawnoo. I'm sorry, I'm 22 mixed -- 23 A: But she was raised by her 24 grandparents as a George and as a sister to Melford and 25 Calvin and Hilda and Gussy (phonetic) --
551 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- and Bishop all -- all the -- 3 Q: I'm sorry, I did know that. And 4 thank you for clarifying it. She had at least two (2) 5 sisters that I know of who were -- I guess their maiden 6 names was Shawnoo and one became Angeline Shawkence? 7 A: Yes. Those were her half sisters. 8 Q: Half sisters. But she was reasonably 9 close to them? 10 A: Yeah. Reasonably. 11 Q: The -- the question I wanted to ask 12 is with respect to your grandfather Shawnoo, he also had 13 a location ticket at Stony Point prior to 1942, is that 14 not correct? 15 A: There's a lot of people that had 16 location tickets there and quite often the Stony Point 17 people themselves didn't. 18 Q: Yes and your father of course would 19 have been -- 20 A: Would have been one of them. 21 Q: -- an example of that. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: I believe you said he had -- he 24 wasn't 21 prior to 1942 and that he hadn't had a location 25 ticket yet. So in point of fact, your father of course
561 got no compensation in 1942, when Stony Point was 2 appropriated by the Department of National Defence? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And to your knowledge your 5 grandfather Shawnoo got no compensation for the loss of 6 his location ticket even though he had one because he 7 didn't live there? 8 A: Only the ones that were moved, I 9 understood, that were resident there were the ones that - 10 - if their houses were able to be moved and they had some 11 assistance with the costs of the moving. 12 Q: Thank you. Do you know if your 13 mother took any action together with her half sisters in 14 respect of your grandfather Shawnoo's location ticket? 15 A: I -- I don't know for sure on that. 16 Q: That's fine. Thank you very much. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much, Mr. Henderson. We'll take a break now. Thank 19 you all very much. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 11:37 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 12:00 p.m. 25
571 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I guess the 4 Chiefs don't have any questions? No? 5 So it's Aboriginal Legal Services, Mr. 6 Eylofson. 7 MR. BRIAN EYLOFSON: Thank you, Mr. 8 Commissioner. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRIAN EYLOFSON: 11 Q: Good morning, Ms. Simon. 12 A: Good morning. 13 Q: My name is Brian Eylofson and I'm 14 from Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto. I just have a 15 few questions for you. It shouldn't take all that long, 16 but there's a couple of areas I wanted to ask you about. 17 When you were giving evidence last 18 Thursday, September 23rd, there was some mention of your 19 parents sitting in lawn chairs next to the Army camp with 20 handpainted signs. Do you recall that? 21 A: I do. 22 Q: And that was around 1990, I believe? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And your parents were elderly 25 at the time?
581 A: My father was actually dying at the 2 time. He passed on later that year. 3 Q: I'm sorry. And your mother was also 4 in her senior years I suppose? 5 A: Yes. Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And their friend Bernice. 8 Q: They were with their friend Bernice 9 as well? 10 A: Bernice Jackson. 11 Q: Okay. So was it just the three (3) 12 of them involved then? 13 A: If it's the same one I'm thinking of, 14 yes. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: But it was really built up in the 17 media. 18 Q: Okay. Well that's -- that's what I 19 wanted to ask you about. This was a -- was it a sort of 20 demonstration that they were having? 21 A: Yes. Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And what were they doing, they 23 were -- obviously they were sitting on lawn chairs with 24 signs. Were they doing anything else? 25 A: Handing out leaflets giving the
591 background history, outlining our rights to the land. 2 Q: Right, okay. And last week in 3 relation to that, you said that you believed there was a 4 lot of fear built up in the media and you also mentioned 5 the portrayal of the Oka crisis? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: That -- that happened in that same 9 era, 1990. 10 Q: I'm wondering, can you explain a 11 little bit more by what you meant by that and your 12 reference to Oka? 13 A: I was aware of the constant portrayal 14 of the people at Oka. They would always include a 15 picture of a masked warrior and when our parents were 16 demonstrating there was a build up in the media, thinking 17 there was going to be a big blockade. 18 And I remember going in shopping in stores 19 in London and that would be constantly played on the 20 radio. And I was thinking, they're just three (3) old 21 broken down people that generate all this media hype and 22 -- and building the fear that there was going to be the 23 armed stand off that -- that Oka crisis had been captured 24 in the media as, but it was those three (3) elderly 25 people.
601 Q: Right, thank you. And you explained 2 that you took on the role of dealing with the media on 3 behalf of your community at a later point? 4 A: I was asked to help after we went 5 into the barracks in '95 there was a daily meeting with 6 the military at ten o'clock each day and some of our 7 Elders would just get too emotional and just break down 8 in tears when they would talk about their -- the history 9 of their removal, and I was asked to assist with that and 10 I -- I did. 11 Q: Okay. And I also believe that you 12 mentioned that there was a great deal of media coverage 13 later, after people occupied the barracks in 1995? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: During that time. 16 A: There was. 17 Q: Yeah, okay. 18 A: Yeah. And again there was a lot of 19 portrayal of -- they found someone with a -- a military 20 coloured shirt on, and that's the picture they used on 21 the front page coverage and there was no picture of our - 22 - our Elders that were part of the people, like Clifford 23 and old Pearl or Uncle Hamster -- Uncle Abraham. 24 That -- these were very senior elderly 25 people and -- and not the -- not the typical warrior that
611 -- that was, again, built up in the media -- and myself. 2 Q: Okay. So it's fair to say that you 3 had concerns about the nature of the media coverage at 4 that time? 5 A: Oh yes, yes. 6 Q: Okay. And do you any concerns more 7 generally about the way aboriginal peoples are portrayed 8 in the media? 9 A: All the time. 10 Q: Are -- in your view are there certain 11 things that the media tends to emphasize? 12 A: Well for us, we were denied 13 telephones in there. We -- when we lived in there from 14 '93 to '95 we lived without hydro, without telephone 15 service, without water service. 16 And it's difficult when something comes up 17 for them to have a contact with anyone there to get our 18 side of the story, and quite often it was completely left 19 out. It was a lopsided version of issues portrayed. 20 Q: Okay. And did you see any 21 stereotypes about aboriginal peoples being perpetuated by 22 such portrayals? 23 A: Well the idea of masked warriors and 24 the build up about warriors. I don't think any of us 25 portrayed ourselves as warriors. We were the descendants
621 of the people who came from there. 2 Q: Any other stereotypes? 3 A: Oh, the violence. They kept talking 4 about the standoff and my idea of a standoff is where 5 someone is armed on both sides and we were unarmed. I 6 objected to that 'cause that implied that we were heavily 7 armed. 8 And it was always paired with Gustafson 9 Lake in the media. And as I recall, there was another 10 takeover of the Serpent Pound -- Serpent Mound's Park, by 11 the Hiawatha First Nation and that was very peacefully 12 done and nothing was about that in the media, as an 13 example of how things could be handled. 14 Q: Okay. I just want to move to another 15 area. And just to clarify, after the people went in to 16 the Park on September of '95, you were also in and out of 17 there? 18 A: I was. 19 Q: You were? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And were you in the Park on September 22 6? 23 A: I probably was earlier in the day. 24 Q: Okay. And when you were speaking 25 about September 6, 1995, last week, you said that it was
631 a very uneasy day because we saw the massive build-up of 2 police? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And did you see police from where you 5 were when you were inside the Park? 6 A: Oh yeah, they were flying overhead, 7 they were -- I assumed that the helicopter was them 8 anyways, and all along the fence there, there was another 9 checkpoint just north of the main gate into the barracks 10 area, as well as another one right at the intersection of 11 Army Camp Road and Highway 21, so they were highly 12 visible. 13 And with the barricade near -- just north 14 of the gate, they had it all brightly lit. That -- that 15 was kind of fearful to me. It was later on at a set time 16 it was turned off, the bright lights were turned off. 17 Q: Okay. And what about the people in 18 the Park, what were they doing when you were there on 19 September 6? 20 A: Just sitting around and -- and 21 talking and, it was kind of a -- kind of a festive 22 atmosphere that they were back in our alienated lands. 23 Q: And where were they sitting, you said 24 they were sitting around? 25 A: Some of them were sitting around on
641 picnic tables earlier. 2 Q: Right. Okay. And were those picnic 3 tables out in the open? 4 A: Oh yeah. 5 Q: Okay. I wanted to ask you about 6 after the events of September 6, and after then, did you 7 reside with your mother? 8 A: In Building 46, the former Roman 9 Catholic Chapel and I -- I still maintain that residence. 10 Q: Okay. So you were close to your 11 mother? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And would she confide in you? 14 A: Yes, yeah. 15 Q: And you in her? 16 A: hmm hmm. Yes. 17 Q: Did she ever talk to you about the 18 incidents of the night of September 6, 1995? 19 A: She would break down, and especially 20 after she had a series of strokes, she would relive that, 21 and she would break down and cry that they were going to 22 shoot her. She was almost shot that night. There were 23 other times when she would say, they should have shot her 24 instead of Dudley. 25 Q: I wanted to move on to another area.
651 You were employed as a teacher in London, Ontario, at the 2 time of the events on September 6, 1995? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And was your employer aware that you 5 had been arrested? 6 A: Yes, I had yelled to my mother to 7 call my immediate supervisor, the Department Head of the 8 International Languages Department, to let him know that 9 I probably wouldn't be able to get there. 10 It's our responsibility to line up our own 11 supply teachers if we have to be away, but I had no idea 12 what was coming down. To be on the safe side, I asked 13 her to call him and have arrangements made for a supply 14 teacher to cover my classes. 15 Q: And at some point after September 16 6th, you went back to work at the school in London? 17 A: I did. 18 Q: Okay. And can you tell us how you 19 were treated in the workplace after this event? 20 A: I was called down to the principal's 21 office and he wanted to find out what I had to say about 22 the events that had happened. And I also had knowledge 23 that whenever something tragic or traumatic happens they 24 have a tragic events response team that's supposed to 25 kick in.
661 They have counsellors that come in and 2 talk with the people that -- what students or staff that 3 are immediately involved with this and that was denied 4 us. We were told not to even talk about it, which is 5 difficult to do when my students had seen me. I was -- I 6 did a press interview and showed the bruising that I had 7 received and that was in the news. 8 And I had students -- former students from 9 the previous years that would come to the door and wonder 10 if I was okay and it was hard to give them that 11 reassurance when we weren't even suppose to talk about 12 it. 13 And I felt discriminated against that -- 14 that these services are lined up for events but we were 15 denied that. And I believe part of the reasoning was 16 that some -- there's many teachers that also have 17 cottages in the area and they objected to this when the 18 issue was raised. They said they had another side of the 19 story. So the result was we were denied that service. 20 Q: Besides that, were you given any 21 explanation for why the services weren't going to be made 22 available to you? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. And you indicated that you 25 were told not to talk about it?
671 A: Yes. 2 Q: Can you clarify who advised you not 3 to talk about what -- 4 A: I don't know the specific words that 5 -- what it would be. The department head that had -- had 6 relayed that information onto me. 7 Q: Okay. Now I believe you said that 8 you've never been advised of the reason for your arrest? 9 A: No. I haven't to this day. 10 Q: Have you ever received an apology 11 from the OPP as a result of the incidents on September 12 6th? 13 A: No, but I tried to get one. 14 Q: And would that assist you in some 15 way? Obtaining an apology that is? 16 A: I was especially concerned with what 17 they did to my mother and even if they offered it now, 18 it's too late. She's passed on in November of 2000. But 19 I would have liked to have -- to have seen something 20 happen to help her, to reassure her that there had been 21 some kind of mistake that she shouldn't have been used 22 that way. 23 Q: So I take it you're saying as far as 24 you're aware, your mother also never received an apology? 25 A: Never.
681 Q: Thank you very much, Ms. Simon. 2 Those are all my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. I think the Province of Ontario is -- any 5 questions? 6 MS. KIM TWOHIG: No cross-examination, 7 thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. The Ontario Provincial Police? 10 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No cross- 11 examination. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No 13 questions; that's fine. The Ontario Police Association? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 18 Q: Good morning, Ms. Simon. I'm Karen 19 Jones. I'm one of the lawyers who acts for the Ontario 20 Provincial Police Association. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And, Ms. Simon, I'm just -- wanted to 23 start out asking if you could help us with one thing. 24 When Mr. George was on the stand earlier, the Counsel for 25 the OPPA was asking him some questions about the location
691 of different buildings by the base -- 2 A: Was -- was this Mr. Clifford George 3 or -- 4 Q: It was. 5 A: Oh, we have a lot of Georges. 6 Q: I -- and one of the -- one of the 7 questions that Mr. Roland had asked him was about an 8 observation post or an observation tower, and Mr. George 9 wasn't able to help Mr. Roland. 10 But I'm just wondering if I can ask you a 11 couple of questions and see if we can sort something out, 12 because I think we could probably narrow it down a little 13 bit. 14 There's an exhibit in this proceeding, P- 15 40, and I'm wondering if you could get a copy of that 16 exhibit and what it is, is it's a map of the reserve and 17 it's got some buildings on the base. 18 And if we just wait for a second. I'll... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Sorry, I -- I was just corrected by 23 Counsel. I was told that Mr. George had said the 24 observation tower was on top of the fire hall. But what 25 I wanted to ask you is that if you -- you have the
701 exhibit in front of you? 2 Yeah. That's it. And you'll see on the 3 bottom left corner that there is a diagram of some 4 buildings at the base? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And there's a "WT" just by the 7 buildings? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I take it that means water tower? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay -- 12 A: It probably would. 13 Q: Okay. And when we were driving down 14 Army Camp Road and along Highway 21 recently, we saw a 15 building that looks like it's a little to the north and 16 maybe a little to the east of the water tower and it 17 looks like a green building with windows on the second 18 floor. 19 Can you help us with what that building 20 is? 21 A: No, I've never been up in there. 22 Q: Okay. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
711 Q: And, Ms. Simon, you had talked a 2 little bit, early in your evidence, about Dudley George 3 and your knowledge of Dudley and you had spoke about 4 knowing him well as a child and then on and off again 5 over the years. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you said once you were on the 8 base you lived beside him in a trailer. He was in a 9 trailer and you were beside him? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yeah. And you talked to us a little 12 bit about the tribute that was done to Mr. George, and 13 one of the things that you said in your evidence that I 14 wasn't -- that I wanted to ask you about was you said: 15 "And in here I felt he was put down a 16 lot and as an orphan, I took offence to 17 that." 18 Can -- can you help us understand what you 19 meant by that? That he was "put down" a lot in here? 20 Did you mean "in here" being at the base? 21 A: Yeah, he -- when we lived on the -- 22 on the ranges -- 23 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you help us 24 understand who put him down or why that would happen or 25 when it happened?
721 A: We had differences amongst ourselves 2 as -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- we do in families and everything 5 and -- 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: -- and there was some bickering over 8 who -- who would have that particular trailer and some of 9 the community members wanted to oust him and use it for 10 other purposes and -- and I was enraged at that and 11 rallied to his support to remain there. 12 Q: Hmm mmm. Okay. And I think you have 13 before you a binder of documents that was put to the -- 14 that was put together by the Commission. You had looked 15 at it the last day you gave evidence. 16 A: I don't know where that is. This is 17 my own personal binder here. 18 Q: Okay. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 20 sorry, next time I will get this all organized before, I 21 thought Ms. Simon would have binder before her. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
731 Q: And at Tab 6 of that binder is set 2 out the materials that you put together, and it starts 3 with the page, A Tribute to Dudley Anthony O'Brien 4 George? 5 A: No, I have the tape recorded message 6 911 call. 7 Q: Oh, okay. Can you -- can you find in 8 your binder where your tribute is? Maybe you're 9 organized a little differently than I am. 10 A: Okay. That's at Tab 2 in here. 11 Q: Okay. I'm sorry. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's at 13 Tab 2 in my binder as well. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 2. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 19 Q: And on the second page, of The 20 Tribute to Dudley, that is the written part of it -- and 21 you had read this out in your evidence last day. You 22 have a section that says: 23 "All was not happy. On the other side 24 of life Dudley also spent some time in 25 Guelph."
741 A: Yes. 2 Q: And can you help us understand what 3 that refers to ? 4 A: That he had been incarcerated at one 5 time. 6 Q: Okay. And I take it that was the 7 period of time he was in gaol, I believe it was, for 8 arson, was that the -- was that the circumstance? 9 A: I don't know what the -- what the 10 circumstances were. 11 Q: Okay. And do you know how long he 12 was in gaol for? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: Okay. Do you know when he was in 15 gaol? 16 A: No, I don't. I'd have to try to 17 connect it with something, but not right off hand. 18 Q: Okay. And you also say his older 19 brother, Pierre, was in Birch. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what does that refer to? 22 A: He was also incarcerated. 23 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not 24 that was about the same time? 25 A: It must have been if they
751 corresponded with each other while they were in there, 2 but no, I don't know the -- the details. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: But I'd also seen the letter that he 5 wrote to my parents, -- 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: -- that my mother was very pleased to 8 have a letter from him. 9 Q: Mm-hmm. He sent it to your mother 10 while he was in gaol? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. And so he stayed in contact 13 with your family -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- when he was in gaol. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. And in your anticipated 18 evidence, and that's the document, and in my book it's at 19 the front of my binder, I'm not sure where it is in 20 yours, but it sets out the anticipated evidence as you 21 gave to, I take it's someone from the Commission who 22 interviewed you? Might that be at the very front of your 23 book? 24 A: No, it's not in here. 25 Q: Okay.
761 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 2 going to ask her some questions about that anticipated 3 evidence statement; perhaps we should get a copy for her? 4 Mr. Rosenthal...? 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry, I might not 6 have, excuse me -- I might not have heard correctly, but 7 I -- I had understood that anticipated evidence 8 statements were not to be cross-examined on, did I miss 9 out something? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 11 not sure that it's a cross-examination yet, but... 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, it seems like 13 it. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, you are 15 entitled to ask some questions. We'll see -- what is 16 your... 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 18 Commissioner. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: All -- all I was trying to do, Ms. 22 Simon, was refresh your memory about what you had said 23 last day. 24 A: About what I had said? 25 Q: Yeah. And I think that you had
771 talked to Mr. Worme about the -- being the Information 2 Officer for Stony Point? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I think he -- 5 A: That was just rather informal -- 6 Q: That wasn't -- 7 A: -- like, it wasn't a paid position or 8 anything, I just asked to help -- 9 Q: Right. 10 A: -- with the media and that's what I 11 did. 12 Q: Right. And I understand that you had 13 experienced, as part of that role, or in addition to that 14 role, in dealing with the public and documentary makers, 15 and journalists, and newspapers, and you had been on 16 speaking tours? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And you told us that was a difficult 19 thing for you because you weren't a public speaker? 20 A: I value my privacy. I can do public 21 speaking when I have to but it's not my favourite cup of 22 tea. 23 Q: Sure. And I take it that you spent a 24 considerable amount of your time doing media relations 25 and doing promotions for Stony Point?
781 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And a lot of that time would have 3 been trying to promote good press and understanding of 4 Stony Point? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I also take if from what you said 7 earlier that some of that time was spent trying to limit 8 or change the bad press that was coming out of the Stony 9 Point -- 10 A: To at least offer our side of the 11 story at times. 12 Q: Right. And that's because you had a 13 message that you wanted the media to hear and you wanted 14 the media to report? 15 A: It depended on what the incident was 16 or -- or whatever -- 17 Q: Right. 18 A: -- was at hand, yes. Yeah. 19 Q: But I take it an overall part of the 20 message that you wanted to and you continue to want to -- 21 the media to hear and report on was that the Stony 22 Pointers were peaceful and they only want to regain land. 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And I wanted to also ask you some 25 questions about what happened prior to the occupation of
791 the Park? And I wanted to ask you that because you had 2 said in your evidence that you were against the 3 occupation of the Park, and as an explanation you had 4 said it's because we were in utter chaos as it was. 5 A: Yes, yes. 6 Q: And part of it seemed to be you said 7 that it was because you didn't know each other? 8 A: To some degree. I -- I felt that was 9 -- that was the case because our -- our people had been 10 dispersed and they were coming in to live and some people 11 would think others didn't belong there when -- when the 12 result was they -- they really just didn't know what the 13 family connections were, what their ancestry was with 14 each other. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And all during the period of time 17 that we had the sacred fire going, we would have people 18 that are related to us that would come from other 19 communities that maybe had been adopted out, and they 20 would be wanting to learn about their heritage and their 21 -- their family connections and things. They had -- they 22 were constantly coming and asking about that. 23 Q: And I think you told us the sacred 24 fire went from the spring of 1993 until the fall of 1993? 25
801 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And I understand from your evidence 3 that you and others had been living at the base since 4 1993? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Okay. And when you talk about other 7 people coming in and people not understanding that they 8 were related or who they were -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- can you help us understand when 11 those people came to the base? 12 A: They were constantly coming and 13 going. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Just thinking of an example -- and it 16 wasn't just relatives. I -- I remember a veteran coming 17 and he was appalled at what was in the media and he came 18 to where our sacred fire was. And he want -- he was 19 carrying photographs where he had been overseas and he 20 photographed the grave of Lloyd Bressette who is 21 originally from there and had died overseas. 22 And as a young man of about eighteen (18) 23 years of age he got stationed at Ipperwash when they were 24 just building it up. And he remembered the mortar fire 25 going on around the camp and towards the interior. And
811 he was horrified that a young woman come running out 2 carrying her children when they were firing on that 3 building. And that remained a vivid memory to him. 4 And he wanted to make connections to bring 5 the picture of that Lloyd Bressette's grave to the 6 family. I did take that -- I recorded them in a journal 7 we were trying to keep of the visitors. And I went and 8 looked for -- her name's Geneva -- Geneva George now -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- Geneva Bressette George, who would 11 be a sister I believe, and took that to her. And I 12 showed another -- another young man whose name was 13 Manumass Dock (phonetic). And they were very moved by 14 that. That's one type of visitor that we would get where 15 they wanted to make connections. 16 And others were people that had been 17 adopted out and sort of alienated from their families and 18 -- and they knew they were connected to the George family 19 somehow so they would -- they would also come and we 20 would talk with them and help them to understand how we 21 were related. 22 Q: Now did that start in 1993? 23 A: It did. 24 Q: Okay. And would you describe the 25 period from 1993 to July of 1995, as utter chaos?
821 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: No, it was only after we went into 4 the barracks and there was all that scrambling about 5 that -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- getting lined up in the different 8 buildings and things that -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- that I referred to as a chaotic 11 time, because that had just happened at the end of 12 July -- 13 Q: Right. July 29th is -- 14 A: And it was just a little over a month 15 later that they went down into the Park -- 16 Q: Right. Okay. Did people move into 17 the barracks after July 29th, 1995, that hadn't been 18 living at the base before then? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Can you help us understand who moved 21 in? 22 A: People were coming and going all the 23 time. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I know my mother was one. She
831 couldn't stay in the -- in the elements out on the firing 2 ranges and we moved into the Roman Catholic chapel. 3 Q: Right. 4 A: She was there to support prior to 5 that, but would go home and -- 6 Q: Right. 7 A: -- into her house in Kettle Point and 8 there were a number of others that did the same thing. 9 Q: Were they -- were they -- were the 10 people who had come and gone in the past but moved in, in 11 July -- after July 29, 1995, were they all people who 12 were known to you, who had been in the base before, on 13 and off? 14 Or did entirely new people come in? 15 A: Some different ones came in, but I 16 knew of the family connection. We had -- we'd actually 17 one (1) cousin that hung himself on our gran's front -- 18 front yard and at that time he had two (2) little boys, 19 and they grew up since, and -- and they also came. 20 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you tell us the 21 names of the new people that came after July 29th, '95. 22 A: I can't give you a comprehensive 23 list. All I can -- it was like an ongoing coming and 24 going. 25 Q: Okay.
841 A: I don't -- 2 Q: Right. 3 A: -- I didn't keep records, but -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- but it was -- but it was ongoing. 6 Q: Okay. I understand from what you 7 said that numbers fluctuated, but could you give us some 8 idea on an average basis of about how people were at the 9 base after July 29th, '95? 10 A: I wouldn't -- I would estimate about 11 a hundred (100). 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now we heard some evidence earlier 17 that I think initially Carl George was the leader at the 18 base. 19 A: At one point he was. 20 Q: At one point in time. 21 A: Yeah. Not at the base. I think he 22 had -- he had left being the Chief by then. 23 Q: Okay. Prior to July 29, '95, was 24 there someone who you and other people would have 25 considered to be a leader at the base?
851 A: We all took positions of leadership. 2 That -- that's what's different. We -- we were united by 3 the common knowledge of our roots there -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- and we sort of just pitched in to 6 do what -- what we felt needed to be done. Like, you've 7 heard testimony from Clifford. 8 Q: Hmm mmm. 9 A: He -- he would be one leader. The 10 Elders were recognized as leaders. It -- there were a 11 number of people that -- that had positions of leadership 12 in different things and that goes along with our -- our 13 traditional way, I guess, where we don't have a 14 hierarchical laid out type of leadership -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: If someone's good at something -- 17 Dudley himself was good at certain things and would be a 18 recognized leader. And during that period of time, I 19 believe he was one of the -- the young men that were 20 trained to service the equipment in the kitchens and 21 things, to know what to do if the pilots or anything like 22 that went out. 23 Q: Okay. I had understood, and maybe 24 I'm incorrect then, but I had understood that there was a 25 period of time when Carl George was essentially a leader
861 and then Glenn George took over. Is that -- does that 2 coincide with your recollection? 3 A: No. They -- they were -- they were 4 concurrent, their leadership in -- in different ways. 5 Q: Okay. And was there a period of time 6 when Carl George left the base? 7 A: The ranges. I -- I tend to think of 8 the base as -- as in the barracks there and -- and -- 9 Q: You'll have to help me with my 10 language. 11 A: -- and the firing ranges was -- was 12 our initial encampments up until the end of July '95. 13 Q: Right. When you moved into the 14 barracks? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And was there a period when 17 Carl George was either at the range or in the barracks? 18 A: Yes, yes. And I really respected him 19 because he went in there and he had this tent -- the 20 hardtop camper trailer. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: He went in there for a period of time 23 with -- with his family and I -- I had great respect for 24 him to do that at that time. 25 Q: It was rough living?
871 A: It was. 2 Q: Yeah. And was there a time when he 3 left either the range or the barracks? 4 A: Yes. Yes. 5 Q: And do you know why that was? 6 A: I don't know. You'd have to ask him 7 what his personal reas -- I can only guess at what -- 8 what the reasons were. 9 Q: And do you know when that was? 10 A: I remember doing up a -- at one of 11 the press conferences we held, there was -- that was 12 included in a press release that he was no longer our 13 Chief -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- to let the media know that he 16 wasn't our Chief. 17 Q: Right. Now, if he wasn't a leader or 18 he -- if he wasn't the leader or if he wasn't 19 acknowledged as such, why would you refer to him in the 20 press release as being the Chief? 21 A: No. I said he was no longer the 22 Chief. He had been before that. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: He was no longer acting in that 25 capacity.
881 Q: Okay. Had he ever acted in that 2 capacity when -- 3 A: Yes, he did. 4 Q: -- he was at the range or at the 5 barracks? 6 A: Yep. Yes, he did. 7 Q: Okay. And when did he act in that 8 capacity? 9 A: When they first went in I believe he 10 was the acting chief -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- in -- in May of '93. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And I recall some of the media 15 coverage after the helicopter shooting, I believe, and I 16 admired him then because that was a very distressful time 17 for them, that he was acting in that capacity then. 18 Q: Okay. And I -- I just want to make 19 sure that I'm clear about your evidence was after Carl 20 George stopped being the acting Chief, did Glenn George 21 become the acting Chief? 22 A: I don't think I recall a time when 23 Glenn George was ever our acting Chief. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: But he was an acknowledged leader in
891 the community for certain things. 2 Q: Okay. Now we heard some evidence 3 from Cliff George, Mr. George, and it sounded from -- to 4 me as though there were some views about who belonged on 5 the range and in the barracks and who didn't. 6 Was that your experience that some people 7 felt, for example, like some of the Kettle Point people 8 ought not be at the range or in the barracks? 9 A: I -- I can't speak for everyone. I 10 think as I said there were -- there was a period of time 11 that it -- we were taking to get to know one another. 12 And there could very well have been times when some 13 people didn't think others belonged there without knowing 14 what -- what our community consisted of. 15 Q: Okay. One of the documents that's in 16 the disclosure that was provided by the Commission and 17 it's not in your binder but I'll tell you what it is and 18 I'll tell you what the passage says. And then I'll ask 19 you to comment on it and if you need more, I'll give you 20 more because I want to make sure you understand the 21 context. 22 There's a letter dated February 25, 1994 23 and for Commission's and Counsel's assistance, it's 24 Document 2002454. 25 And it's a letter to the Superintendent of
901 the OPP and it's from George -- G.E. Allison who's a 2 Sergeant. And in that letter what Sergeant Allison does, 3 is he sets out some incidents that happened at the base 4 by the range. 5 And I'm not going to ask you questions 6 about that, but what he says at the end of that letter is 7 he says, Swenson (phonetic) who is another OPP member: 8 "Was also informed by Constable George 9 that Marcia Simon was overheard stating 10 that buildings would be burned if the 11 property was turned over the wrong 12 native people." 13 And one (1) of the things -- and I hope I 14 want to make this clear to you Ms. Simon is that there's 15 a lot of documents that we've received. And it's part of 16 my job and part of the fairness of the process is to tell 17 you about those documents, and give you a chance to 18 comment on them or tell us what they're about or tell us 19 if you agree or disagree. 20 And I want to give you that opportunity. 21 And so, first of all, can you help us understand whether 22 or not you would have made a comment or you would have 23 held a view or you thought it was possible that buildings 24 would be burnt if the property was turned over to the 25 wrong native people?
911 A: I don't know where that came from. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I don't recall ever saying anything 4 like that. 5 Q: Okay. Were you of the view that it 6 was important that -- 7 A: Which Constable George is that? I 8 have a number of cousins that are constables and I don't 9 recall ever talking to any one (1) of them about 10 buildings -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- being handed over to wrong natives 13 and I -- I don't know who they mean by wrong natives -- 14 Q: Okay -- 15 A: I just have a number of questions 16 myself about that statement. 17 Q: Okay. It says: 18 "Constable L.V. George --" 19 A: Larry Vincent would it be? 20 Q: I take it that would be Larry 21 Vincent. And whether or not you said that to Constable 22 George -- 23 A: No, I don't recall ever talking to 24 him. 25 Q: Okay. Was it your view that if the
921 wrong native people were in the -- in the base, either at 2 the range at that time it would have been the range, that 3 there could have been a problem? 4 A: I don't know who the wrong native 5 people would be. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I don't think I ever recall people 8 being called the wrong native people by myself. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now one (1) of the other documents, 14 Ms. Simon, that we've been provided in the course of this 15 proceeding is a document that is a summary of -- sort of 16 the OPP's chronology about what happened in 1995 and 17 before. 18 And you don't have that document before 19 you and so what I wanted to do was ask you some 20 questions. I'll tell you what the document says and then 21 see if you can help us understand if it's -- coincides 22 with your view or if it's accurate or whatever. 23 And for the assistance of Counsel and the 24 Commission, I can tell you that the document is 2000588 25 and it's entitled "OPP report executive summary".
931 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 5 Commissioner. Does the witness have a copy of this 6 document in front of her, and if not, she should have it 7 if she's going to be asked about it. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, there 12 are some documents that I think that Ms. Simon needs to 13 review and look at and make sure that she has the whole 14 document. In this case there's a reference to a matter 15 and all I want to do is ask Ms. Simon if she knows about 16 something -- if she knew about that or not. 17 I'm just wondering, for the purpose of 18 proceeding, if I can do that and then if there's a 19 problem or if Ms. Simon needs more we can do -- we can do 20 other and different than that. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's see 22 what happens. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're going 25 to refer to a very specific part of it --
941 MS. KAREN JONES: I am going to refer -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if you're 3 uncomfortable with this, Ms. Simon, just say so and we'll 4 stop and give you the whole document. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. If you -- if we 6 go to -- once we get -- there's about eleven (11) pages 7 of the summary and then once we get past that it's 8 Document -- it looks like 0-13749, it's page 3 of the 9 chronology and that follows the executive summary. 10 It's page 3 of the document. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The higher 15 tech system that we had at the beginning of the 16 Commission was very expensive. We've gone to a slightly 17 lower tech. We may have to go back to the higher tech if 18 it takes this long for us to find stuff, but anyway... 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commission -- 20 Commissioner, for this passage I just intend to refer to 21 one brief section. After that, I'll be referring to more 22 sections in another document. I wonder if it makes sense 23 if I can just read this brief passage to Ms. Simon? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you 25 found it, Mr. Millar?
951 MS. KAREN JONES: It's -- it's the entry 2 under August 16th, 1995 and it's on page 3 of the 3 chronology. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And it's 5 part of a large summary that's how many pages. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, it is. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we don't 8 want to give her the whole document -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: No, no. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to read 11 if it's just going to be -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: You surely do not. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So let's see 16 if we could find the passage that you're going to read 17 and that way -- there it is. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Ms. Simon -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's just a 20 short four (4) or five (5) line passage. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: Ms. Simon, it's hard to read so what 24 I'm -- because your head's all twisted but what it says 25 is:
961 "August 16th, 1995. Intelligence 2 information led the OPP to believe 3 there is the potential for the First 4 Nations people occupying the military 5 base to move into Ipperwash Provincial 6 Park. Information indicated occupation 7 would take place on the Labour Day 8 weekend. 9 The Stony Point group believe there is 10 a sacred burial ground located at the 11 Park and they have based their land 12 claims on this issue." 13 And, Ms. Simon, the question that I wanted 14 to ask you was it appears from this document that within 15 about two (2) weeks or a little bit more after moving 16 into the barracks, that there was information about an 17 occupation of the Park at -- on the Labour Day weekend. 18 Was that something that you knew about in 19 August? 20 A: I be -- I became aware of that 21 through a press release entitled "Heightened OPP Presence 22 on Settled Campers." And the first that I -- and I 23 believe this was around the end of the month. 24 Q: And -- and is that a document that 25 you're referring to in your hand?
971 A: It's a newspaper clipping from the 2 London Free Press. 3 Q: Okay. And was that a document that 4 was in your binder from the Commission? 5 A: No, this is from my home. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And -- but that was the first that I 8 had heard of the -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- the rumours about going into the 11 Park and it -- it says that: 12 "Meanwhile Kettle and Stony Point Band 13 Chief Tom Bressette said despite talk a 14 takeover of the Park by breakaway Stony 15 Pointers when the Park closes after 16 Labour Day isn't likely." 17 And that's the first I had heard of any -- 18 any talk about going into the Park. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And he goes on: 21 "The Park is said to be built on Native 22 burial grounds, Bressette said." 23 Q: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's the 25 date on that document?
981 MS. KAREN JONES: Now -- yeah, I'm sorry, 2 Mr. Commissioner -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: -- I was just going to 5 ask the same thing. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: We haven't seen that document, Ms. 10 Simon, so can you help us a little bit. Is it dated? 11 A: It's got the top run off. I believe 12 it was around the 28th of August -- August the 28th. 13 Q: Okay. And can you tell us, Ms. Simon 14 what, if anything, you did as a result of reading that 15 article? Did you talk to people in that -- at that -- 16 A: I -- I just became very concerned 17 about the well being of my sons. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: That I felt prior to that, that 20 something awful was being orchestrated. My son -- a 21 couple of weeks -- around the middle of August had come 22 home from -- I'd actually brought him from London at -- 23 at the end of the week -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: And went into the Park with a couple
991 of other young fellows to go and buy pop at the Park 2 store. And he landed up being arrested and put into a 3 police cruiser in the hot sun for over an hour and taken, 4 I understood, to the Grand Bend Detachment. 5 And the other young fellows had come to 6 tell me that he'd been arrested and I tried to find -- I 7 was very fearful. I didn't know what was happening, 8 because he had just come home from work and -- and was a 9 good little boy. 10 Q: Okay. Which -- 11 A: Now, he wasn't -- he wasn't inclined 12 to be creating problems, that he's a very well-respected 13 young man with integrity. And this was upsetting to me 14 as his mother to -- to hear that he was arrested as a 15 common criminal. 16 Q: Sure. 17 A: So I went to -- 18 Q: Then which son was this, I'm sorry? 19 A: Kevin. 20 Q: Kevin, okay. And when did this 21 happen? 22 A: It was around the middle of August. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: So I went to Grand Bend. I 25 understood the police were from the Grand Bend
1001 Detachment -- 2 Q: Mmm hmm. 3 A: And when I arrived over there and 4 asked for him, they told me he was taken to the Kettle 5 Point Police -- 6 Q: Mmm hmm. 7 A: So I turned around and went from 8 Grande Bend back to Kettle Point to find where he was -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And they claimed he wasn't there 11 either. 12 Q: Mmm. 13 A: But they had taken him down to the 14 scene of a -- there was a drug raid going on down towards 15 the -- the point itself and when they got -- 16 Q: When you say the -- I'm sorry. I -- 17 I'm sorry to interrupt you, but when you say "point" do 18 you mean Kettle Point or -- 19 A: Kettle Point. 20 Q: Stony Point? 21 A: Yes. Kettle Point. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: We call that the Point. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And --
1011 Q: So -- and which police were at the 2 raid at Kettle Point? Was it the Kettle Point police or 3 the OPP or did you know? 4 A: I don't know. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And they connected up with the -- 7 someone in the Kettle Point police, I believe, that -- 8 that verified who he was -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And then they dumped him off there. 11 Q: Okay. So was your son actually 12 arrested that day? 13 A: For that period of time and then he 14 was -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- dumped off. 17 Q: And was he charged with anything on 18 that day? 19 A: Not that I know of. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: My concern was that he would be 22 enraged at this type of treatment and would become angry 23 and then give them reason to arrest him. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Or harm him in some way. He also let
1021 me know later on that the Park was full of undercover 2 police that were chasing him from their camp sites. 3 Q: Did you talk to any other people at 4 the base in the barracks about what you had read in the 5 newspaper on -- 6 A: About -- about this at the end of the 7 month? 8 Q: Yeah, at the end of the month. 9 A: I know I -- I spoke with my son about 10 it and pointed that out. 11 Q: And that's -- you spoke to Kevin? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you speak to anyone else 14 about that? 15 A: I -- I don't recall. There were just 16 so many things happening. 17 Q: Okay. What -- what else was going on 18 at the time? 19 A: We both -- he worked in London and I 20 would try to make sure I had delivered him to work and 21 picked him up and there were the things happening within 22 the barracks that we -- we needed a lot of time, I felt, 23 to get a community established there and get to know 24 who's who and what's what and -- 25 Q: And I think you told us earlier about
1031 there being disputes in the barracks about who was living 2 where and who should be there and that kind of thing. 3 A: Yeah, and they would set a building 4 aside for an elder and they didn't want to be there. 5 They wanted to be with their family, which makes sense. 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: And that -- that was going on. 8 Q: Sure. Did you make any efforts, 9 other than talking to your son, to dissuade people from 10 moving into the Park? You had told us earlier that you 11 thought that would be a bad idea. 12 A: I don't recall speaking with anyone 13 other than just after -- after the fact. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I'd -- I'd heard that they'd gone 16 in, -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- and I was on my way down there to 19 go and put my two (2) cents in, as the reasons why. And 20 they were those same reasons that we need to get our 21 community a little bit better running before they try to 22 take on anything else. And I -- I met up with another -- 23 another mother who disagreed with me and said, her 24 feeling is that they should go for the whole thing. 25 Q: And so what does --
1041 A: And I asked her -- 2 Q: What does, "Go for the whole thing," 3 mean? 4 A: All of our territory. 5 Q: And what -- what does, "All of our 6 territory" mean? 7 A: It included the Park. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And I asked her -- 10 Q: But did it include -- sorry, I'm 11 sorry to interrupt, but did it include the areas outside 12 of the Park? 13 A: Right at that point, that -- that's 14 what I think she meant. 15 Q: Okay. And you told us that you 16 weren't in the Park on September 4th, when it was first 17 occupied, but you went up there later to express your 18 concerns. 19 A: Yeah, that's the same day I'm talking 20 about, about going down there to speak against it. 21 Q: Okay. Can you tell us who was in the 22 Park on September 4th, when you went there? 23 A: I can't, I -- I would only go, and as 24 long as I saw that my sons were okay, so, I guess there's 25 part of your answer. My sons were down in there at
1051 different times. 2 Q: Okay. And, I take it, given what 3 you've told us about your feeling that something bad 4 would happen, and your concern about your son, Kevin, I 5 take it that you'd agree that in your view it was 6 important that the occupation of the Park should be 7 peaceful? 8 A: Oh, certainly. 9 Q: And I take it you'd agree that you 10 thought it was important that people in the Park 11 shouldn't provoke or aggravate? 12 A: Yes, on both side. 13 Q: Okay. And I also take it you'd agree 14 it would be important that people who were occupying the 15 Park stay in the Park, so that people could understand 16 the area that was in dispute? 17 A: There's two (2) ways of looking at 18 that, -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- because it was publicly spoken out 21 that they wanted to remove our people from the Park. But 22 in terms of -- of presenting our issues with our -- our 23 burials and things there, yes, it would be important that 24 they stay once they made that stand to go in there. 25 Q: Right. And just so I'm clear about
1061 my question with you, I take it you'd agree it would be 2 important that if the occupiers who had moved into the 3 Park were claiming the Park, that it be important they 4 establish the boundary of the Park, as the area that they 5 wanted to have, and not go outside those boundaries? 6 A: There's some -- some views that the 7 territory extended further than the boundaries of the 8 Park. 9 Q: Sure. And where -- where were the 10 views that those boundaries extended to? 11 A: I don't know the -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- exact locations, but as a mother 14 with two (2) vulnerable sons that had the potential of 15 also being shot, my stomach would just knot up and I 16 would fear for their lives, at some of these things. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Because we were aware of the heavy 19 police build-up. 20 Q: Okay. Now, there is a document that 21 we've been provided by the Commission, that is called, 22 "Sequence of Events Surrounding the Confrontation between 23 the OPP and First Nations People at Ipperwash Provincial 24 Park." 25 And for the assistance of the Commissioner
1071 and Counsel, that Document as set out in our index, is 2 1001993. And that's in Volume I of the material provided 3 by the Commission. 4 And, Ms. Simon, there's a number of 5 passages that I wanted to refer you to in that -- in that 6 SIU document and so I'm wondering -- we'll just maybe 7 wait for a minute while it gets put up on the screen so 8 that people could follow along. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 10 document in the binder? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Commissioner, Mr. 12 Millar has just suggested that we have a lunch break now. 13 Would this be a good time? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Yes, 15 Mr. Millar, do you want to say something? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, I do. It -- Ms. 17 Spies is here and Ms. Perschy is here and perhaps we 18 could talk about the motion briefly. 19 I understand that Ms. Spies is available 20 Wednesday and Mr. Sandler is available Wednesday. And 21 everyone else is available Wednesday. No, oh, Mr. 22 Henderson is now pulling my leg. 23 So I suggest, Commissioner, that we 24 schedule the motion for Wednesday morning. We'll start 25 it at ten o'clock and do just the motion on Wednesday,
1081 that's September 29th. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 3 Henderson...? 4 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I was not 5 precisely pulling Mr. Millar's leg. Unfortunately 6 there's a hundred and fifty (150) justices of the peace 7 in London who expect some of my attention Wednesday 8 morning. I had assumed of course with many others, that 9 the motion would be heard today or tomorrow. So I'm not 10 available Monday mor -- sorry, Wednesday morning but I am 11 available Wednesday afternoon. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Will we have 13 enough time? Would you be -- somebody wasn't available 14 on Thursday. If you started Wednesday -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Spies is not 16 available -- I think that -- is not available Thursday. 17 Well, I'm in your hands. We originally planned to have 18 it today after the conclusion of Mrs. Simon's evidence 19 which will probably be late in the day. So realistically 20 Tuesday -- it would have been Tuesday. 21 I appreciate that My Friend Mr. Sandler 22 planned on starting -- no one -- we're a little behind 23 time. No one expected that we would be where we are 24 today. 25 But we have a problem with every day. So
1091 -- Mr. Sandler's -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 3 Sandler...? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- going to add. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY MILLAR: That's what 6 happens when you try to accommodate everybody. Okay. 7 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm going to suggest 8 respectfully that -- that the best of a difficult 9 situation is to proceed on Wednesday if Mr. Henderson can 10 be assisted by his Co-Counsel here and not be invited to 11 make his submissions until he returns which will be in 12 the afternoon. 13 I expect given the volume of material that 14 I've seen, that there'll be a few people who will want to 15 be heard, Commissioner, on this issue before we'd be 16 getting to Mr. Henderson in any event. And it will 17 probably work out quite nicely. 18 I should say that I was scheduled to speak 19 at a conference Wednesday morning. But I too recognizing 20 that it would be unfair to insist upon Thursday, having 21 regard to Ms. Spies' position, will get somebody else to 22 speak at the conference. Maybe Mr. Millar? But I'd 23 suggest -- I'd suggest Wednesday and perhaps that can 24 work even accommodating Mr. Henderson. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What time do
1101 you think you might be able to get here on Wednesday, Mr. 2 Henderson? I know -- is there a fixed time for your 3 expected remarks in London? 4 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: We have a panel 5 of three (3) on between 9:00 and noon is my 6 understanding. We did the other hundred and fifty (150) 7 in Ottawa two (2) weeks ago. So we all know that there's 8 three hundred (300) justices of the peace in Ontario now. 9 So in theory I could be back by one 10 o'clock. Of course I'm not thrilled at the prospect of 11 making submissions when I haven't heard anybody else's. 12 Certainly familiar with the written outlines of -- of the 13 -- the positions being taken. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I presume 15 Mr. George would be here. 16 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I certainly hope 17 so. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you -- 19 are you anxious to be here, Mr. George? 20 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Yes, I will be here. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It seems 22 that -- I hate to put you out, Mr. Henderson. You tried 23 to be co-operative but I think if we start Wednesday and 24 ensure that you will have an opportunity, obviously, to 25 make your own submission but you may not hear everything.
1111 That may be the least of our bad options. 2 Do you want to wait until after the lunch 3 break and see if we can come up with a better option if 4 not, that -- that seems to be the least bad option. If 5 that's a word, "least bad." 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, it's a problem 7 for Mr. Henderson -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 9 to put Mr. Henderson out any more than Mr. Sandler, or 10 Mr. Horton. But I mean it's an important motion. 11 Everybody wants to say their piece and hear what others 12 have to say. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, perhaps we 14 should -- we could -- I could talk to Mr. Henderson and 15 Mr. Sandler and Ms. Spies over the lunch hour and we 16 could -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's try 18 and work it out over lunch hour. If we can't then we'll 19 deal with it and we'll just fix a time and somebody is 20 obviously going to be inconvenienced unless we -- we put 21 it over a couple of weeks and that's not an acceptable 22 solution so. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't in fairness to 24 Mr. Horton, that's not an acceptable -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's
1121 not an acceptable solution. So we'll have to try to find 2 sometime in this week to do it. Otherwise we're not 3 sitting next week, we would be off into October. So 4 let's try over the lunch hour to find a more satisfactory 5 solution. If we can't we'll deal with it again after 6 lunch. 7 It's now five (5) minutes after 1:00. 8 Well what time do you want to reconvene? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2:20 p.m. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 2:20's fine. 11 Thank you very much. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 13 adjourned until 2:20. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 1:06 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 2:25 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed. Please be seated. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, if I 24 might, what we -- I've discussed the Motion with all of 25 My Friends and what we propose is the following, is that
1131 we will start Marlon Simon tomorrow morning and Mr. Simon 2 will start at ten o'clock. I anticipate that Mr. Simon 3 will go the balance of the day and then probably some of 4 Wednesday morning. 5 So what we would do is then start the 6 usual time on Wednesday morning at ten o'clock, go until 7 twelve o'clock with Mr. Simon, break for lunch and then 8 at one o'clock we would start the Motion and then sit to 9 4:30. 10 The only thing we have to do on Wednesday 11 afternoon is make sure that Ms. Spies plays through, even 12 if she's out of time, so that she gets her opportunity to 13 make her submissions and then we will start again on 14 Thursday morning at, I guess -- the -- following our 15 usual practice at nine o'clock and go to 3:30. 16 But if we finish the Motion in the 17 morning, for example, then we would finish Mr. Simon if 18 there was anything left of Mr. Simon. But we would not 19 start a new witness on Thursday. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On Thursday 21 afternoon. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thursday afternoon. 23 And I think that -- I think that fits with everybody, I 24 think. 25 Mr. PETER ROSENTHAL: I just have one
1141 little addendum, sorry, Mr. Commissioner and Mr. Millar. 2 Over lunch, I had another meeting with my 3 clients about the Motion and I just want to inform 4 people, because I'd informed them one way by e-mail and I 5 want to inform that -- my clients have determined that 6 I'm instructed to support the Motion and I will be making 7 brief oral submissions in that respect. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 Okay, let's start. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps as Ms. Jones 11 makes her way up here, the witness had referred to a 12 newspaper article, Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: I just want to give 15 that document number, that is 1003676 from Volume III. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: And Mr. Commissioner, 18 if I could ask for some clarification, too. Ms. Simon 19 had referred to a press release that had been issued and 20 I'm not sure exactly what she was referring to. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 22 either. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Is that -- is that a 24 document that the Commission has? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that what
1151 you mean? You mean the article. You mean the press 2 article? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, okay. I -- just 4 to make sure I'm clear, Ms. Simon, I thought you had 5 referred to issuing a press release in which you said 6 Carl George was no longer acting Chief. 7 THE WITNESS: We did issue one and I 8 believe it may have been towards the end of June '95 or 9 the beginning of July. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. And do you have 11 a copy of that press release? 12 THE WITNESS: I do, somewhere in here. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 16 have a copy of it, so if you can make it available to us, 17 we'll make copies for everybody. 18 That's right -- that's right, Mr. Millar? 19 We don't have a copy of it? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Not that I know of. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: And, Mr. Commissioner, 22 I -- I realize that people are busy but I'm wondering if 23 I'd have a chance to look at it before I'm done my cross- 24 examination. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes?
1161 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: If I can assist, I 2 believe that document was handed out to all Counsel last 3 week as part of the documents that we intend to refer to 4 our examination of Ms. Simon. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That, I'm 6 not familiar. I don't remember it, but let's see what it 7 looks like. It may refresh our memories. 8 Mr. Millar would you mind taking the 9 document so we can see what it is? Is that the document 10 that we just distributed already? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, it is. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where is it, 13 Mr. Worme? Is it in the binder? 14 MR. DONALD WORME: It's in a list of 15 documents entitled 'Aazhoodena and George Family Group' 16 list of documents from Arsea (phonetic) Simon passed out 17 by -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 19 bring my copy of it with me but... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: And, Ms. Simon, I'm just looking at 25 the press release that says 'For Immediate Release' and
1171 it's dated July 6, 1995. And I take it from looking at 2 the document that it was -- the press release was issued 3 as a result of a newspaper article? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I understand that that newspaper 6 article quoted Carl George? Do you recall? 7 A: I would have to have the article in 8 front of me which I don't, but our people came together 9 and that was one point they wanted it to be made very 10 clear that he was no longer our acting Chief. 11 Q: Okay. And according to the documents 12 that were handed out last week and I'm referring to a 13 document, the top of it's cut off but it says, you can 14 see on the right-hand side 'Sarnia, Ontario, Tuesday, 15 July 4, 1995.' and it says 'Ipperwash Dispute Heats Up.' 16 And let me -- do you -- do you have copy 17 of that attached to the press release now? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And at the bottom of the 20 lefthand column it says: 21 "Carl George, Chief of the Stony Point 22 Band that claims it meant that -- 23 claims its members are the lands 24 rightful owners said a small breakaway 25 group of people at the camp are causing
1181 problems. They're acting on their own, 2 he said. I don't agree with it. In 3 fact, Chief George has advised members 4 of his group to leave the camp for 5 their own safety." 6 And did you have any discussions with Carl 7 George about his concerns, about problems at the range? 8 A: On the firing ranges? No, I didn't. 9 Q: Okay. So when he says in this 10 article that a small breakaway group of people at the 11 camp are causing problems, do you know what he's 12 referring to? 13 A: I would assume he's referring to the 14 other Stony Point people that are still living there. 15 Because I believe by that time he had long since moved. 16 He was not longer living in Stony Point. 17 Q: Okay. So it -- do -- okay. And when 18 it says on the paragraph below that, that: 19 "Chief George has advised members of 20 his group to leave the camp for their 21 own safety." 22 Who was Carl George's own group at the 23 camp? Do you know what that refers to? 24 A: Other than his family, I -- I don't 25 know who all he means.
1191 Q: Okay. 2 A: You'd have to ask him. 3 Q: Okay. And I'm sorry, I just want to 4 -- to make sure I understand your evidence. As I 5 understood, you didn't remember when Carl George ceased 6 to be the acting Chief? Is that correct? 7 A: No. Not the exact date. The first 8 formal knowledge I have of it, is actually when we did 9 this -- this press release on -- on July the 6th, '95. 10 Q: The first formal knowledge you had 11 that Carl George was not a Chief, was that day? 12 A: Was no longer the acting Chief, yes. 13 Q: That was the first time you found 14 that out? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Who told you that? 17 A: They had a meeting. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: The Stony Point people -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: The Elders and that -- these are a 22 list of the concerns that they wanted brought out and 23 given -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- to the media so it was the --
1201 Q: And what -- 2 A: -- community that came together and-- 3 Q: Okay. And when you say "the Elders" 4 who are you referring to? 5 A: I would be -- and again I can't 6 remember exactly who all was there, but I would -- I 7 believe it was Pearl -- Pearl George and her family -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- and I'm not sure if it would also 10 include Clifford. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: And Rose Manning. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: I don't know if it would -- who else 15 it would be. 16 Q: Okay, who -- who talked to you about 17 this? 18 A: I attended a meeting where they -- 19 Q: Okay. And those are the three (3) 20 people that were at the meeting? 21 A: The three (3) that I recall. 22 Q: Okay. And there's a reference under 23 Paragraph 5 in the press release -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- that speaks to a building being
1211 burned. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Can you tell us what building was 4 burned? 5 A: If you read the -- the rest of that, 6 it -- it was the gas training chambers. 7 Q: Okay. And can you tell us who burned 8 that building? 9 A: I have no idea. 10 Q: So you have -- 11 A: All I know is that it was partially 12 burnt and they had the fire put out, so we had that 13 burned out frame of the building left there for a long 14 time. 15 Q: Okay. And someone then burned it to 16 the ground? 17 A: It eventually was burned -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- right to the ground. I thought it 20 was a good -- a good sign to leave it the way it was, 21 because I spoke to others and told them that it -- it 22 showed our determination that we mean -- that we mean to 23 stay there. We mean business. 24 Q: Okay. And do you know when that 25 building was burned?
1221 A: I thought it was closer to 2 Hallowe'en. But again, I don't have the date written 3 down. 4 Q: Okay. By Hallowe'en I take it you 5 mean in -- sometime in October? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: So I take it, it must have been in 8 October of 1994 or earlier? 9 A: No. This -- 10 Q: No? 11 A: -- press release is in -- dated July 12 '95 -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: So it would have followed after that, 15 I think. 16 Q: It was burned after you issued the 17 press release? 18 A: Hmm. 19 Q: Or was it burned before you issued 20 the press release? 21 A: I would have to rethink that. I -- 22 I'm not absolutely certain on that. 23 Q: Okay. Now we were talking about the 24 park and the occupation of the park on September the 4th, 25 and I think you've told me that you were in the park that
1231 day and I had asked you who else was in the Park, and I'm 2 just wondering now if you can recall who was in the Park 3 on September the 4th, in addition to your sons? 4 A: I can't say for certain, because 5 people came and went. 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Do -- do you recall anyone who was 9 there on September 4th, beside your sons? 10 A: I believe my mother would have been 11 with me. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Melva George. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I -- I think people came and went 16 like I did, so it was hit or miss -- whoever you would 17 see at a certain time. 18 Q: Sure, and I guess my question is who 19 would you -- 20 A: And I just can't remember 21 specifically who was there this many years later. 22 Q: Okay. Now, I had started talking to 23 you about a summary that was put together by the SIU 24 called, "Sequence of Events", and I had referred Counsel 25 to the Inquiry Document 1001993 and that's not a document
1241 that's in front of you but I take it that we can get it 2 on the screen. 3 And again, this isn't a document that's in 4 your material or that you've read but it will be on the 5 screen and it's quite a long document and I just want to 6 read you some excerpts from it from time to time, so 7 we'll put it up on the screen and I'll read the excerpt 8 to you and then if you need to see something else or you 9 don't understand the context of what's going on, if you 10 let me know, we can fill that in for you. Okay? 11 It won't help you too much to look in your 12 binder because it's not in there. 13 A: Oh. 14 Q: And just -- just to let you know what 15 I'm talking about, there was -- this is a document that 16 was put together by the SIU that's sort of a summary or a 17 chronology of the -- 18 A: What was the date? What was the date 19 when they did this? 20 Q: I don't know the date of when they did 21 that. The date had to have been later on because the 22 last entry in it that I have is September 14th, so it had 23 to have been done after September 14th. My 24 understanding -- 25 A: Of 1995?
1251 Q: Yes. And my understanding of the 2 evidence of Bonnie Bressette is that the SIU 3 investigation started taking place about two (2) weeks 4 after September 6th, so in order to place this document, 5 I imagine that it had to have been put together some time 6 later in September or October. 7 But the reason I'm putting it up is, I 8 want to -- you've told us that you were in the Park on 9 September 4th and the first entry in the SIU chronology, 10 which is dated September 4th at 4:07 p.m. talks about a 11 confrontation between a number of OPP members and 12 Roderick George and Stewart George and as you can see, it 13 says: 14 "Several natives in a black TransAm, 15 Ontario license plate 052 XCS, have a 16 heated verbal confrontation with OPP 17 members in the area of Matheson Drive 18 and Army Camp Road. Natives were 19 yelling that the officers were 20 trespassing on their land. Roderick 21 Judas George was the driver and Stewart 22 Warren George was the passenger. Two 23 (2) native females were in the back. 24 Warren George states to Constable 25 Dellemomache, "Do you know how many
1261 cross-hairs you have lined up on you 2 right now?" Two of the natives were 3 standing at the open trunk of the 4 vehicle, what appeared to be a rifle 5 butt was seen as one (1) native 6 attempted to take it out and then 7 changed his mind." 8 And the question I had for you was, were 9 you there in the Park at that time? 10 A: No. I -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- believe I stated earlier that I was 13 on my way down to let them know the timing -- what -- I 14 felt the timing wasn't right to go in there -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- and it was already -- they were 17 already in there. I was -- it was too late. 18 Q: Okay. And can you help me understand 19 then on September 4th, when were you in the Park? I had 20 understood -- 21 A: It would have been -- 22 Q: I had understood that you were in and 23 out -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- over the course of the --
1271 A: Later in the evening -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- I did go down when I encountered 4 the one (1) woman that had said we should go for the 5 whole thing and when I expressed my opposition to that at 6 that time, and I did go in and -- for a short period of 7 time and back out again. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: But I believe this probably happened 10 much earlier. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Because I didn't hear about this until 13 later in the evening. 14 Q: Okay. And when you say, "Later in the 15 evening," can you give us some idea of what time you were 16 in the Park on September the 4th? 17 A: I would imagine around seven or eight 18 o'clock. Just -- just prior to it starting to get dark. 19 Q: Okay. If we turn over to the entry 20 then that says, Monday, September 4th, 1995, 7:30 p.m. 21 and you'll see at the bottom, there we go, there's an 22 entry that says: 23 "Sergeant Korosec speaks with several 24 Natives at the east gate of the Park 25 near the fence. These persons included
1281 David George who had a tire iron in his 2 hand, Bert Manning and Glenn George. 3 Most legal campers had vacated the Park 4 at this time." 5 When you were in the Park in the evening 6 of September 4th, did you see David George or any other-- 7 A: No. 8 Q: -- persons with a tire iron in their 9 hand? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And if we go to the next entry 12 there's an entry Monday, September 4th, 1995 at 9:20 p.m. 13 to 9:27 p.m. And that entry talks about a confrontation 14 between Roderick George where it says: 15 "He smashes the rear windshield of an 16 OPP cruiser with a large walking 17 stick. Flash flares are also thrown at 18 the cruiser. Constable L. Parks is 19 struck by a flare thrown by David 20 Abraham George. The two (2) occupants 21 of the cruiser, Whalen and Jack, then 22 retrieved. Natives locked the Park 23 gate behind them." 24 When you were in the Park in the evening 25 of September 4th, did you see Roderick George with a
1291 large walking stick? 2 A: No, I didn't 3 Q: Did you see any persons with flares? 4 A: No. I didn't. 5 Q: Okay. Do you know whether when you 6 were in the Park, the Park gate was open or was it 7 closed? 8 A: I believe it was open. If my memory 9 serves me, I believe my mother and I exited out of the 10 gate. 11 Q: Okay. Now on September 5th were you 12 in the Park? 13 A: I believe I went down for short 14 periods of time again. 15 Q: Okay. So you were in and out of the 16 Park on September 5th? 17 A: Yes. Yeah. 18 Q: And can you tell us who was in the 19 Park when you were there? 20 A: No. I can't remember who all was -- 21 Q: Okay. Can you remember anyone that 22 you saw in the Park on September 5th? 23 A: Not at this point. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I can't even recall if my sons were
1301 in there at this point. 2 Q: Okay. Were you in the Park in the 3 morning of September 5th? Or the afternoon or the 4 evening or do you recall? 5 A: No. I don't. I would have to look 6 at a calendar and see which day of the week that was. 7 Q: It's -- if you look at the -- 8 A: Tuesday? 9 Q: -- document it says it's a Tuesday. 10 A: I was probably was at work. I 11 probably was at work. 12 Q: Okay. And when you say you were at 13 work, were you working in London that day? 14 A: Yes, yes. 15 Q: And when you went to London, when 16 would you leave in the morning? 17 A: I don't even remember that. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: There -- there were times when I only 20 worked in the afternoons and there times when I only 21 worked in the mornings and I would have to try to look at 22 some other documentation to trigger my memory of what my 23 schedule was. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: But I -- I don't know right off hand.
1311 Q: Okay. And again, can you help us at 2 all about when you would have been in the Park on 3 September 5th. 4 A: I recall going down -- I guess it was 5 getting towards evening -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- and I was very concerned about -- 8 and I think I had gone back later on to try to get a 9 trailer down in there to -- to go and somehow provide a 10 shield between our people and the police. 11 Q: Okay. Was that on September 5th that 12 you tried to take your trailer into the Park? 13 A: It was the same night that Dudley was 14 shot so I guess it was the 6th. 15 Q: Okay. So we're talking now about the 16 day before? 17 A: Yeah. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I recall going down later and, again, 22 I felt it was all very disorganized, there wasn't a set 23 plan in place. And I felt that Dudley tried to hold the 24 fort as -- as it got later in the evening and everybody 25 would -- would go home. I think he was one of the few
1321 that would stay behind to maintain the Stony Point 2 presence there. 3 Q: Okay, so when you were -- Dudley and 4 who else was there on September the 5th? 5 A: I don't recall who all was there at 6 that time. There was only one (1) or two (2) others at 7 the time I went down. 8 Q: And when you went to the Park, where 9 did you go to in the Park? 10 A: To the area closest to -- towards the 11 area where he was shot. 12 Q: So -- 13 A: So I -- 14 Q: -- you're talking about the beach 15 access road? 16 A: I would have gone down at that -- on 17 that road from the barracks -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- and there was an entrance in -- 20 through the Park there, beside their maintenance shed 21 that we would go into. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And -- 24 Q: You -- you would go into the 25 maintenance shed?
1331 A: No. We would go by -- 2 Q: You'd go by the maintenance shed? 3 A: There was an entrance beside the -- 4 Q: Okay. So if I understand what you 5 would do then, is you would drive on the road that's 6 parallel to Army Camp Road -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- inside the base -- 9 A: Yes. 10 A: -- and then you would drive along 11 that road, essentially to the end of the road, which -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- was at the access area to the 14 Park. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the sandy beach? 17 A: And the sandy beach? 18 Q: The -- the -- that's the area where 19 you go into the beach, is that right? 20 A: I didn't go over quite that far. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: It was sort of in between the -- that 23 portion and that roadway, I don't know what it's called, 24 that comes up beside the maintenance shed into -- 25 Q: Okay.
1341 A: -- the Park. 2 Q: Okay. And did you generally stay in 3 that area, or did you go into different areas in the 4 Park? 5 A: Generally just that area, that seemed 6 to be where most of the people would be. 7 Q: Okay. And I think we -- we've heard 8 that there were a number of buildings in the Park; the -- 9 a maintenance shed and a kiosk and a store. Did you go 10 into any of those buildings? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. And did you go into the beach 13 part of the Park when you were there? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. Now, later on the evening on 16 September the 5th, 1995, there's an entry at 10:15 and 17 there is -- what the entry says is: 18 "Several natives are seen putting 19 picnic benches across Army Camp Road at 20 the public access to the beach." 21 And I take it that's the area that you 22 went to when you were in the Park? 23 A: No. It was more to the east that I 24 went to. I had heard about that happening but I didn't 25 witness it personally.
1351 Q: The picnic tables being taken out on 2 to the road? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And you weren't 5 there and you didn't see what happened? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And -- 8 A: I -- I understood that to happen 9 later at night, yeah. But I wasn't down there at that 10 time. 11 Q: Okay. And there's an entry dated 12 Tuesday, September the 5th, 1995 at approximately 11:45. 13 It's just a little bit further down the -- sorry about 14 that. It says: 15 "Approximately fifty (50) to seventy- 16 five (75) rounds of automatic gunfire 17 are heard coming from the area of the 18 Army Camp. This is heard by several 19 officers at checkpoint Delta which was 20 located on Army Camp Road at Sunnyside 21 trailer Park." 22 And I take it from what you've told us 23 that you would have been back in the camp about that 24 time? 25 A: Yes.
1361 Q: And did you hear those rounds of 2 automatic gunfire? 3 A: No, I didn't. 4 Q: Okay. And were you in the Park on 5 September the 6th? 6 A: Yes. I recall -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- going in briefly as well. 9 Q: And can you help us? What time were 10 you in the Park? 11 A: I -- I really don't remember. I -- 12 I'm sort of guessing. I think it was in the evening. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And it was at some point that I 15 wanted to get my trailer moved down there to go in 16 between our people and the police and I wasn't able to do 17 that. 18 Q: Okay. Now, there's an article that 19 was put -- written by a reporter from the Windsor Star 20 and it's dated September 7th, 1995, but it was written by 21 the reporter according to that article about what he 22 experienced at the Park on September 6th, 1995, and for 23 the assistance of Counsel, that article is 2001764. 24 And what I'd like to do, Ms. Simon, is 25 read to you some portions of that document and see if you
1371 saw that when you were in the Park on September 6th. And 2 it talks about a circumstance where the reporters are 3 standing outside of the Park and they are having some 4 confrontations, it sounds like, with the natives inside 5 the Park and what this reporter says -- and this is on 6 the second column of the document: 7 "Many of the dozen men at the main gate 8 shouted insults at reporters who 9 occupied a tense no-man's land between 10 the natives and police. Following one 11 (1) media foray near the fence the 12 native leaders had a car brought up. 13 From the trunk they unloaded baseball 14 bats, fence posts, and crowbars. They 15 made a show of brandishing the weapons. 16 "Watch out for those guys in the bushes 17 over there," one (1) yelled, pointing 18 to a stand of stunted trees and brush, 19 "They're watching you." 20 When you were in the Park on September 21 6th, did you see occupiers in the Park with fence posts, 22 with crowbars, or with baseball bats? 23 A: No, I didn't. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And if I did, I probably would have
1381 told them something. 2 Q: And why would you have told them 3 something? 4 A: Because of the nature of the 5 escalation of tensions and things. It's something that - 6 Q: Provocative? 7 A: It's just something that I felt would 8 be harmful. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And I can see where, if they did 11 indeed say things like, watch out for those guys in the - 12 - in the -- is it bushes? 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- over there? 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: I think they're pulling their leg. 17 They're playing on their perceptions of us. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: That we've been portrayed as these 20 terrorists -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- and everything. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. Now, one (1) of the things I 24 wanted to ask you about, Ms. Simon, is you had said 25 earlier in your evidence that there was a buildup of
1391 police and I wanted to ask you when you noticed the 2 buildup of police? 3 You've talked about being in the Park on 4 September 4, September 5, and September 6. 5 A: Going back to what I mentioned about 6 my son being arrested in the middle of August and then 7 hearing about all the undercover police camping in the 8 Park -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- that -- that's one (1) thing that 11 made me quite fearful. I felt there was something afoot. 12 Q: Okay, and this was your son that told 13 you this? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: This was Kevin? Okay. And what I'd - 16 - what I'd like to know though, was what did you observe? 17 What did you see? 18 A: There were all these roadblocks being 19 set up. 20 Q: Okay. And -- and -- 21 A: And -- 22 Q: I'm sorry and I don't mean to 23 interrupt you, but can you tell me where the roadblocks 24 were? 25 A: I know there was one (1) at Army Camp
1401 Road and Highway 21. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And then just about a block further 4 down on Army Camp Road. 5 Q: Okay, so when you say a block further 6 down, do you mean north on Army Camp Road? 7 A: I do. 8 Q: Okay. And what would be a block 9 north on Army Camp Road? Was there any kind of physical 10 feature or anything that you can help us understand where 11 that is? 12 A: If you've been there, it would be 13 outside of the compound. 14 Q: Okay. And when you say the 15 "compound", what do you mean by that? 16 A: A compound where they store old junk 17 cars now but it used to be where they stored the 18 recreation vehicles for the military. 19 Q: Okay. And can you tell us where 20 else, if anywhere, there was a roadblock that you 21 observed? 22 A: I believe they were set up at 23 Ravenswood. 24 Q: I'm sorry? 25 A: At Ravenswood.
1411 Q: Okay. And did you see a roadblock at 2 Ravenswood? 3 A: As we would go through, many of us 4 would have to go back and forth for water and things -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- between Kettle Point and Stony 7 Point. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: So it seemed like -- I know when I 10 started back to work it seemed like I would go through 11 three (3) roadblocks on my way to work and three (3) more 12 on my way back at --- 13 Q: So when you say at Ravenswood, you're 14 saying that there was a roadblock on the corner of 15 Highway 21 and -- 16 A: Centre Ipperwash Road. 17 Q: Centre Ipperwash Road. Okay. And 18 were those roadblocks all three (3) of them in place on 19 September the 4th? 20 A: I can't -- I can't remember. 21 Q: Okay. Do you know if all three (3) 22 of those roadblocks were in place on September the 5th? 23 A: Again, I -- I don't know. Can't 24 remember. 25 Q: Okay. And again were they in place
1421 on September the 6th? 2 A: I believe so. 3 Q: Okay. And what else if anything, did 4 you observe in terms of a police buildup? 5 A: I believe there was a lot more 6 personnel down towards the Park. 7 Q: Okay. And what -- what did you see? 8 How many did you see? 9 A: I don't know. I remember going up to 10 turn around there and again I'm not sure if it was the 11 6th, that there was a lot of police around the outside of 12 the Park. 13 Q: Okay. And when you say a lot, can 14 you give us an idea what that means? Were there two (2), 15 were there five (5), were there ten (10)? What -- what 16 kind of numbers is a lot? 17 A: I would say around ten (10). 18 Q: Okay. And where do you say these 19 police were? 20 A: Right near the fence. 21 Q: Okay. And so you're talking about 22 the -- just so I'm sure the intersection between Army 23 Camp Road and Parkway? East Parkway? 24 A: Around there. 25 Q: Around there? So again that's around
1431 the area to the beach access area? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Is that right? And do you recall 4 when you saw ten (10) or so police officers there? 5 A: I vaguely remember -- and -- and I 6 wish I had something to refer back to help me. I thought 7 I went down there before I went to work so it could have 8 been that I was teaching in the afternoons and went down 9 there around noon hour, a little after. 10 Q: Okay. And can you help us, was that 11 on September 4, September 5 or September 6? 12 A: I -- I -- my memory is really hazy 13 this many years back and -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And is there 15 anything else that you saw in terms of a police buildup? 16 You've referred to three (3) roadblocks and you've 17 referred to seeing about ten (10) police in one area 18 outside of the Park? 19 A: The roadblock at -- outside the 20 compound was brightly lit. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: It -- I didn't recall that happening 23 before. 24 Q: Okay. And how was it lit? 25 A: With bright lights I think. I don't
1441 know what they would be called. 2 Q: Okay. I -- I just -- I'm trying to 3 get some help from you. Were they lights on cars? Were 4 they lights away from cars? Were they lights -- 5 A: Well, it was from the police. That 6 was part of their -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- their -- whatever -- roadblock, I 9 thought. 10 Q: Okay. And so were the lights 11 illuminating the area? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Did they shine up or did they shine 14 down? 15 A: I thought they were shining down -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- lighting up the area -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- along the road and along the -- the 20 ditch. 21 Q: Okay, and can you tell me what the 22 lights were on? In order to shine down, they'd have to 23 be up somewhere. 24 A: What they were on? 25 Q: Yes.
1451 A: Just some kind of a stand that -- 2 Q: Okay, and can you help us understand 3 how many lights there were? 4 A: I recall one (1) very bright light. 5 Q: One (1) light. 6 A: Hmm hmm, and I don't know if there 7 were more. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I just remember it being brightly lit. 10 Q: Okay, and was that on all three (3) 11 days or one (1) day or can you help us with that? 12 A: I thought it was just on the last day 13 before Dudley was shot. 14 Q: So, that's September 5. Is that 15 right? Or September 6? 16 A: I thought it was on the 6th. 17 Q: On the 6th. Okay, and is there 18 anything else you can help us with? 19 A: Not that I personally saw, but I'd 20 certainly heard rumours and -- and -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- there was a lot of activity at the 23 highway. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: I know at a set time I saw a female
1461 officer loading up a shotgun and making a big display of 2 holding it up in the air and at a set time they left that 3 intersection and went down to the Park area. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And I remember asking her, What -- 6 what are doing? Are you going hunting Indians? 7 Q: Okay. Now, when was that? What day 8 was that? 9 A: Just before Dudley was shot. 10 Q: On September 6th? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And where was the police person? 13 A: Right on Highway 21 -- along highway 14 21 near the intersection turning towards Army Camp Road. 15 Q: Okay, and can you help us understand 16 what time that would have been? 17 A: Just before Dudley was shot. 18 Q: Okay. Now, you've told us that you 19 were in the Park on September 6th in the evening. Is 20 that right? I want -- I'm just trying to -- 21 A: Briefly. 22 Q: -- get the sequence of events on 23 September 6th. 24 A: Briefly. 25 Q: Okay. And can you help us -- about
1471 what time you were in the Park on September 6th? 2 A: I believe it might have been -- I -- 3 Q: Was it dark or was it -- 4 A: No, it was still daylight because -- 5 Q: It was still daylight. 6 A: -- because just before dark I was 7 trying to get my trailer hitched up to take down there. 8 Q: Okay. And I understand from what 9 you've told us, you were unsuccessful. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And can you give us some idea about 12 how long you were working at the trailer? 13 A: I thought it would be about forty-five 14 (45) minutes. 15 Q: Okay, so you've told us you were at 16 the Park in daylight? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And then you went to your trailer and 19 you were there for about forty-five (45) minutes? 20 A: I had gone and conscripted Dudley's 21 brother, Pierre to help me -- 22 Q: Right. 23 A: -- try and hook the trailer up so he 24 came with his son, Lakota. 25 Q: Right. And, just in terms of timing
1481 to help us out, it -- it seems to me it gets dark about 2 7:30 or it starts to get dark about 7:30 now? 3 A: I think a bit later. 4 Q: A little bit later? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Maybe 8:00? Something like that? 7 A: 8:30/9:00. 8 Q: Okay, so I take it then, you were in 9 the Park before 9:00. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you were working on your trailer 12 around 9:00. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And was it light or was it dark when 15 you were working on your trailer? 16 A: We worked on that until after dark. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: It was dark. 19 Q: Okay, so I -- if it gets dark around 20 9:00 and you were there for forty-five (45) minutes, I 21 take it you were finished with that some time around 22 10:00. Is that right? 23 A: Somewhere around there. 24 Q: Okay, and what did you do after that? 25 A: I had to admit defeat with that
1491 trailer hitch and I took Pierre and Lakota back to the 2 main gate to the barracks -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- and connected back up with my 5 mother -- Q: Right. 6 A: -- and then I wanted to go back down 7 to the Park after -- after I'd seen the things happening 8 with the police officer loading up that shotgun and -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And that's -- light was turned off. 11 Q: Okay. Now if you can just -- 12 A: I -- 13 Q: -- help me understand. I understand 14 that your trailer or where you would have been was a 15 little closer to the north end of the base? Is that 16 right? 17 A: My trailer? 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: No. It -- it's along Highway 21. 20 Q: Okay. So in order -- 21 A: It's still there, because of the 22 broken hitch. 23 Q: Still. And so in order to get to -- 24 back to the Park, tell -- you would have gone -- how -- 25 sorry, how did you get from your trailer back to the
1501 Park? 2 A: I drove on -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- the interior access road back into 5 the barracks -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- to the main gate -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And -- 10 Q: And that's the parallel road, to Army 11 Camp Road? 12 A: That's the -- 13 Q: Is that right? 14 A: -- parallel road to Highway 21. 15 Q: Okay. And then at some point in time 16 I take it you'd have to go north to get up to the Park? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: Okay. And I take it you took the 19 interior road? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: That runs parallel to Army Camp Road? 22 Yes? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Okay. Now, you've also told us that 25 that night you were wearing an army jacket?
1511 A: I did have -- it's more of a shirt -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- than a jacket. 4 Q: I'm just -- just wondering if you can 5 help us understand a little bit about what it looked 6 like, when you say "it's more of a shirt". Would it -- 7 A: It was just a light cotton. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: With buttons down the front. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And it was long sleeved. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: And it had a cuff on it. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And was a fairly long shirt? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No. Okay. And were you wearing a 19 hat that night? 20 A: I don't remember. 21 Q: Okay. Now, one of -- one of the 22 things that I was wondering when I looked at your 23 material and --especially given your work with the media 24 and your work with language, whether or not you kept a 25 note or journals over the course of -- of the time -- of
1521 the summer of '95 and into September? 2 A: No, I didn't. 3 Q: Okay. And did you make any notes or 4 did you keep any record of what happened on September the 5 6th? 6 A: No, I didn't. 7 Q: Okay. And you've given a number of 8 interviews or made a number of statements about the 9 events of September the 6th, and one of the things that I 10 had asked your Counsel to assist you with, is making sure 11 that you had a chance to read the summary of the 12 interview that you had with the Coroner's investigator 13 and -- and review the -- your statement of claim in this 14 matter. 15 Did you have a chance to do that over the 16 lunch hour? 17 A: No, I didn't. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: But I'm -- I'm -- I think fairly 20 familiar with that. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: All right. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Because that -- wasn't that just last 25 year the Coroner interviewed us?
1531 Q: It looked to me like it was dated 2 February of 2003 that the Coroner interviewed you. 3 A: That's just last year. 4 Q: Yeah. And in my -- that black binder 5 that you have, in my binder at the last Tab is a copy of 6 the interview with the Coroner. I don't know what's in 7 your book, but I'm assuming somewhere in there, there 8 might be a statement. 9 I know Mr. Worme had handed one over to 10 you a little earlier. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And the investigative report of the 15 Office of the Chief Coroner is Document Number 500004 for 16 the assistance of Counsel. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Do you have a copy of that there? 21 A: The Coroner's report? 22 Q: Yeah, well your interview with the 23 Coroner? 24 A: Yeah, he's got Marcie Simon. My 25 proper name is Marcia.
1541 Q: Right. And do you have a copy of 2 your Statement of Claim before you? 3 A: That -- that's here. 4 Q: Okay. Now, the Statement of Claim 5 is, as I looked at it, was dated May of 1996. Can you 6 tell us whether or not you had made any notes about the 7 events of September 6 or given any interviews about the 8 events of September 6, prior to May of 1996; that is 9 between that September 6, the date of your arrest, and 10 May of 1996, when the Statement of Claim was issued? 11 Did you give any interviews or with anyone 12 or make any notes? 13 A: I didn't make notes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 15 Rosenthal...? 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good afternoon, 17 sir. The Statement of Claim was prepared by Legal 18 Counsel, other than myself and Ms. Esmond and I don't 19 know what discussions she may or may not have had with 20 Legal Counsel, what notes she may have given him, and so 21 on, and I would just remind the witness that she has 22 privilege over any such discussions with her solicitor, 23 and I presume My Friend is not referring to any such 24 discussions. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: And I'm not, Mr.
1551 Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: And maybe, Ms. Simon, what I can do 6 is I can repeat my question is: Prior to May of 1996, 7 did you give any interviews about the events of the night 8 of your arrest or did you write any notes or have any 9 articles about it? 10 A: Who do you mean by interviews? I -- 11 I have given a number of talks about what happened. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: But I don't -- this, I believe, is 14 the first -- the first interview was with the Coroner. 15 Q: Okay. In February of 2003. 16 A: Is that -- is that what you're 17 getting at, is that -- 18 Q: I'm just -- I'm -- I'm actually not 19 getting at either of those things. What I'm just trying 20 to find out is, prior to May of 1996, which was when the 21 Statement of Claim was issued -- 22 A: I'm puzzled -- 23 Q: -- I was just -- 24 A: -- I'm puzzled about that because I 25 understood this was filed within six (6) months of the
1561 night of when this happened, so it should have been in 2 March of '96? 3 Q: Well, I'm not particularly familiar 4 with your litigation, Ms. Simon, all I can do is look on 5 the front of it and see that it was issued by the 6 registrar May 14th, 1996. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: There may well be some other history, 9 but I wouldn't know that. 10 A: On the front? 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: In -- in any event, my question was: 14 Prior to May of 1996, had you given any interviews about 15 the night of your arrest or had you written anything 16 about the night of your arrest? 17 A: Hadn't written -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- but I -- I was interviewed by the 20 lawyer -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- that prepared this. 23 Q: And -- and I don't want to know about 24 your discussions with your lawyer, and I'm sorry, I 25 should have -- I should have made that clear, because one
1571 of the things that happens when you talk to your lawyer, 2 it's confidential as between you and your lawyer. 3 So, I appreciate that you probably had 4 some back and forth there, but you don't need to tell me 5 the details of it, and I don't want to know the details 6 of it. 7 A: But I thought the date would be 8 important that this was done, because I scrambled to get 9 that in the Courts -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- within the six (6) months Statute 12 of Limitations. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And -- and they did, or at least I 15 thought they did. 16 Q: Okay. And I take it that you would 17 have reviewed the Statement of Claim when it was 18 finalized? 19 A: I'm not sure if it was -- I -- I was 20 -- I recall going over a draft, and -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- and had made a -- pointed out a 23 number of errors -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- but I don't recall seeing the
1581 final -- 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: This is now getting 3 into discussions with the solicitor, obviously. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 5 not sure that it is yet. It hasn't yet, it's getting -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: No, I am -- Mr. 7 Commissioner, I am not asking about those discussions. 8 My question to Ms. Simon was simply: Had she reviewed 9 the final document before it was filed? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's 11 nothing wrong with that question, I don't think, is 12 there, Mr. Rosenthal? Had she reviewed the document? 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: She reviewed the 14 document but then she started explaining about the -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, she 16 shouldn't say -- shouldn't say anything regarding your 17 conversations with your solicitor. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. Or anything 19 about any back and forth with the solicitor. She 20 reviewed the document. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 22 understand that, you're -- you're not going to be asked 23 and you shouldn't answer any questions regarding your 24 confidential conversations with your solicitor. All 25 right.
1591 2 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 3 Q: And so I think -- I think you told 4 us, Ms. Simon, that you weren't sure if you looked at the 5 final version? 6 A: This is going back quite -- quite a 7 while and I do recall looking over the draft -- that -- 8 that's very clear. 9 Q: Okay. And so you don't know whether 10 or not you did review the final version before it went 11 out? 12 A: No, I don't. I may have; I may not 13 have. 14 Q: And -- and just so I -- I'm clear, 15 did you have a chance to review that claim over the lunch 16 hour? 17 A: No, I didn't. I was supposed to. I 18 was told that was my homework but I -- I wanted to eat. 19 I need the strength to continue. 20 Q: And you were being bad. Okay. I -- 21 one of the things maybe I can ask you to do on our next 22 break, is have a look at it because I might want to ask 23 you some questions? 24 A: I might want to go to the washroom. 25 Q: Sorry. Well hopefully we'll have
1601 enough time you can do both. It's just -- it's just -- 2 it seems to me it's a better use of time if -- while the 3 Hearings in progress I can ask you questions rather than 4 you read during the course of the time the Hearing's in 5 progress. 6 I'm just trying to figure out a way that 7 you can refresh your memory with the document and we 8 don't take up too much time. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How much 10 longer do you think you might be? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: I think I might be 12 about another hour and a bit. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well this 14 might be a good time to have a break and that way she can 15 look at the document now. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay, thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We've been - 18 - we've been at it approximately an hour since the lunch 19 break and that's -- that's enough for now. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. And maybe given 21 Ms. Simons' comments, we might take a couple of minutes 22 more than fifteen (15) minutes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 24 Let's break until -- how long do you think she might 25 need? I don't know how long the document is.
1611 MS. KAREN JONES: The Statement of Claim 2 itself is, Mr. Commissioner, is nine (9) pages. It's not 3 particularly long and it's double spaced. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll say 5 twenty (20) minutes. It's twenty (20) after 3:00, let's 6 break until twenty (20) to 4:00. Thank you very much. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 8 for twenty (20) minutes. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 3:22 p.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 4:00 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed. Please be seated. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I gather the 16 witness -- you've now had a chance to go through the 17 document? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 20 -- where did the document come from? I mean it's a 21 Statement of Claim, but who had it? 22 MS. KAREN JONES: That document was 23 distributed last week by the government in the same 24 package. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: By the
1621 government? 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm not sure if it's 5 the Commission database as well but that's where I got it 6 from. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. She's 8 gone through it now and I just -- I don't think anybody 9 wants to spend anymore time here than we have to. And 10 when we're out of the hearing room like that, I mean, it 11 just seems that we could have made more productive use of 12 the time, but I guess not. She needs to go through it. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: I had thought, Mr. 14 Commissioner, when we provided a list of our documents 15 that in -- I know that document had been handed out -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It was. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: -- I would have thought 18 that Ms. Simon would have had a chance to look at it and 19 if she didn't I apologize for that. I made the wrong 20 assumption. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 22 trying to assign fault, I'm just trying to avoid it 23 happening with regularity. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: No, I understand. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Otherwise
1631 we'd be here a lot longer. But anyway let's carry on. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 4 Q: Ms. Simon, during the course of the 5 break here, counsel told me that I may have said 6 something that was offensive to you and that was when you 7 were saying that you were supposed -- that you had been 8 given the task of reading the Statement of Claim over 9 lunch and you didn't. And I made a comment that that was 10 being bad, and I didn't mean to say that in any kind of 11 way that was derogatory. 12 I was just thinking, often my daughter 13 assigns me jobs and when I don't do them she tells me I 14 ought to and I'm bad if I don't. That language just came 15 to my head in the course of me thinking about things I'm 16 supposed to do sometimes and I don't. I surely didn't 17 mean anything offensive by it to you or to say that you 18 did anything wrong. 19 A: I needed the time to eat my lunch just 20 I needed time to go to the washroom and -- and then I 21 needed the additional time to read it. 22 Q: I appreciate that, Ms. Simon. Before 23 we get into this, there were just a couple things I 24 wanted to ask you and one (1) is, you've told us in 25 essence, you were the media person or the contact person
1641 for -- 2 A: Not the only one. I -- I was -- 3 Q: You're one (1) of them? 4 A: -- asked to help with media. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And I wasn't in any formal capacity. 7 I wasn't a paid individual, it was all on a voluntary 8 basis -- when I could be there on the off times of when 9 I'm not working. 10 Q: I understand that. I was wondering if 11 you were asked to assist in the Park as being an 12 information person or -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- communicating in the Park in any 15 way. 16 A: No, I wasn't. 17 Q: Okay. And you had mentioned earlier 18 in your evidence that you had kept a list of people who 19 were at the camp. 20 A: No, I didn't. 21 Q: I'm sorry? 22 A: No, I didn't. 23 Q: A list of visitors I think you told us 24 about? 25 A: At one (1) point --
1651 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- I had a little journal at the 3 Sacred Fire and it -- and it wasn't a very inclusive 4 one -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 Q: -- because the idea just came partway 7 through the summer to record what was happening on a 8 daily basis -- just a little red bound journal and I 9 don't even know where that is to this day. 10 Q: Okay. Okay, and you've now -- I think 11 you've told us -- had a chance to review the Statement of 12 Claim? 13 A: I have. 14 Q: Okay, and you've had a chance to, I 15 take it, to review the summary of the interview that you 16 had with the Coroner's Office. 17 A: I didn't do that. I -- I had gone 18 over that last week, though -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- and I was appalled at all the 21 typing errors and minor errors like that in it. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: There -- there were really bizarre 24 errors. Like, anyone reading it would pick up on those 25 but it wasn't and I wondered why, when I was -- and I
1661 wondered why I wasn't given a copy. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I had expected to receive that. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And never did. 6 Q: Okay. Did you ever -- sorry -- you 7 told us that you had reviewed that document last week? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Is that right? 10 A: And I was appalled at all the errors 11 in it. 12 Q: Okay, and -- and just so I understand, 13 you described the errors as typographical errors or are 14 there content errors in that document? 15 A: Both. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: There's some of both. 18 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you help us 19 understand what is inaccurate in that document? 20 A: In the -- 21 Q: And I -- and just -- I don't want to 22 spend a huge amount of time here so I'm not going to ask 23 you to -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: -- point out all the typographical
1671 errors but if there's content that's inaccurate -- 2 A: Oh -- 3 Q: -- in here, can you help us? 4 A: Well, I didn't go through and 5 specifically mark which were the content errors. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Well, we could start right off by my 8 name that -- 9 Q: I saw that. 10 A: -- that my full name is Marcia Flora 11 George Simon not just Marcie Simon, which sounds very 12 informal for a matter of this seriousness. 13 Q: Okay. Let me -- let -- let me go 14 about this another way because we may be a while doing 15 that and I don't want to keep you here any longer than 16 you need to be. 17 You had told us -- and -- and I want to 18 sort of start the sequence of events on the evening of 19 September 6th, just to orient you to what kinds of things 20 I'm talking about. 21 You've told us that on September 6th you 22 had described the incident with your trailer, trying to 23 move your trailer in the evening and that then you went 24 down the road that was parallel to Army Camp Road and you 25 were going to go towards the Park.
1681 A: Yeah, I only went part way down. I 2 didn't go all the way down. 3 Q: Right. And any -- at any time in that 4 evening did you hear gunshots? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay, and I had asked you earlier 7 about what you were wearing that night and I think we 8 ended up, you were telling us about the green army shirt 9 or a shirt-like -- top that you had on? 10 A: Only when I was out where it was 11 cooler, but those pictures that were taken, that's how I 12 was dressed, with that purple and white outfit on. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And those pictures that were taken -- 15 Q: Right. 16 A: -- the morning afterwards. 17 Q: Right. And I take it when you were 18 out in the evening when it was cooler, you would have had 19 the army shirt on; is that right? I'm sorry, when you 20 were out in the evening, when it was cooler, you would 21 have had the army shirt on? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And I'd asked you if you had a 24 hat on, and I think you told me that you didn't know -- 25 A: I don't remember that far back.
1691 Q: Okay. Do you wear hats from time to 2 time? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. The reason I'm asking you is 5 one of the officer's statements that I'm going to take 6 you to, or that I've reviewed, refers to you wearing a 7 hat, so I just want to -- 8 A: Did he say what kind? Was it a straw 9 hat, or a ball hat, or -- 10 Q: No, he just says a hat, and I just 11 wanted to check and see if that was consistent with what 12 you recall. 13 A: I don't even remember wearing a hat 14 that night. 15 Q: Okay. So you can't say whether you 16 were or you weren't? It could be either way? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And then you've talked about a number 19 of vehicles coming down the road towards you, in your 20 evidence to the Commissioner last day. And you talked 21 about speaking with Roderick, who told you that his son 22 had a hole in him, he said to you. 23 A: Not on the road. 24 Q: Pardon me? 25 A: Not on the road.
1701 Q: Okay. Where -- where is at -- I had 2 understood this was in the gate area? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Okay. And this is the gate area 5 coming out of the Camp, onto Highway 21 or onto Army Camp 6 Road? 7 A: Onto Army Camp Road. 8 Q: Army Camp Road. Okay. And you had 9 told us that you decided to go to the nearest payphone 10 and call for an ambulance, just after hearing that. And 11 were you aware that there was a phone in the Park? 12 A: I was warned not to go down there -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- that we were being shot up. I had 15 my mother with me and I didn't want to expose her to 16 being shot. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Nor did I particularly want to. 19 Q: Sure. But the question though, was: 20 Did you know that there was a phone in the Park? 21 A: At some point I knew, I had no idea 22 whether it was working or not. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I didn't know if it was for public 25 use, I had never seen it or used it.
1711 Q: Okay. And then you told us that you 2 drove out of the gate onto the road, onto Army Camp -- 3 A: From the barracks -- 4 Q: From the barracks, onto Army Camp 5 Road, and earlier that gate, I understand from your 6 evidence, had been blocked by Pierre's car and your -- 7 and your mom's car? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And this time Pierre's car was gone-- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- is that right? And I take it that 12 when you went out of the gate that you would have been 13 upset? 14 A: If your children were shot at, I 15 think you would be highly upset. 16 Q: Sure. And do you agree with me that 17 you would have been driving fairly quickly at that point 18 in time, to try and get out -- 19 A: No, I don't agree with that at all. 20 Q: Okay. And you told us earlier that 21 there was no barricade at the corner of Army Camp Road 22 and Highway 21? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. And I think you told us, 25 though, that there were police at that corner.
1721 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Can you help us with how many 3 police you saw at that corner? 4 A: I don't remember, it's such a long 5 time ago. 6 Q: And were there -- there -- there's a 7 -- do you recall whether or not there was a -- any other 8 cars beside police cars, at that corner? 9 A: None that I recall. 10 Q: Okay. And I'm going to ask if we can 11 look at that SIU Document again, and that SIU Document 12 was Volume 1001993. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 17 Q: And you'll see just at the top of 18 that page -- I'm sorry, Mr. Millar -- there's a -- the 19 first entry is Wednesday, September 6th, 1995 and it 20 says: 21 "A female driving a red Nova approaches 22 officers at check point Delta, which 23 was now located on Highway 21 24 approximately 100 feet south of Army 25 Camp Road. She states she needs an
1731 ambulance for her son, Nick Cottrelle, 2 who had been shot. She's told to bring 3 him out to their location and an 4 ambulance was requested. The woman 5 returns accompanied by a second woman 6 and Cottrelle in a black TransAm. An 7 ambulance subsequently took Cottrelle 8 to Strathroy Hospital." 9 And I take it, Ms. Simon, that that is the 10 area where you saw police. 11 A: I don't know. 12 Q: Okay, and then -- and you'll see that 13 that entry is dated at 11:10 to 11:16 p.m., so it appears 14 in the five (5) minutes -- that five (5) minute period, 15 another mom, who was concerned about her son, went to the 16 corner, spoke to the police and they got an ambulance for 17 her. Do you agree with me that you could have gone to 18 the police at the corner and asked for an ambulance? 19 A: No, I don't agree with you. 20 Q: Okay, and if we go down to the next 21 entry, which is Wednesday, 6 September, 1995, at 11:15, 22 you'll see that that time intersects with the time that 23 Nick Cottrelle's mom's at the corner. It say -- 24 A: Pardon me? Pardon me? 25 Q: I said, that time -- 11:15 --
1741 A: Okay. 2 Q: -- is at the same time that Nick 3 Cottrell's mom is reported being at that corner asking 4 for an ambulance and what that says is: 5 "A car is seen leaving Camp Ipperwash 6 and travels north on Highway 21. This 7 vehicle fails to stop for police who 8 give chase." 9 Now, one (1) of the documents, Ms. Simon, 10 that we were provided last week is a document -- a duty 11 report that was provided by Provincial Constable Etchier 12 (phonetic) and I want to tell you, in fairness, what she 13 says about that period of time. She says: 14 "At 2200, a brown Dodge bearing the 15 Ontario registration 935 HHT --" 16 And I take it that's your car? 17 A: That's my license number. 18 Q: Okay, and were you -- is -- were you 19 driving a brown Dodge that night? 20 A: I was. 21 Q: Okay. She said: 22 "-- approached the roadblock --" 23 And she's explained in -- earlier in her 24 statement that she's at a roadblock at Highway 21 and 25 Army Camp Road. She says:
1751 "One (1) of the male officers spoke to 2 the two (2) female occupants of the 3 vehicle. Against the officer's orders, 4 the driver of the vehicle then left the 5 roadway at a high rate of speed and 6 went around the roadblock, travelling 7 northbound on Army Camp Road." 8 A: Can you show me where this statement 9 is that you're reading? 10 Q: This statement was handed out by 11 Counsel for the Government last week and I have a copy of 12 it and I think, perhaps, your Counsel might have a copy 13 too. 14 A: That's news to me. 15 Q: Okay. And do you agree that you were 16 driving a brown Dodge that night? 17 A: That's my car -- 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: -- at that time. 20 Q: And according to this officer, you 21 were asked to stop and didn't. Do you agree with that? 22 A: I do not. 23 Q: Okay. And then you've told us that 24 when you were going along Highway 21 and you were going 25 east, I think, towards -- in the Grand Bend direction,
1761 that police vehicles came chasing after you with flashers 2 going and you said that there may have been two (2). 3 And I'm going to suggest to you that at 4 least one (1) of the police cars had its lights and its 5 sirens on when they came up behind you? Do you agree 6 with that? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. Do you agree that it had its 9 lights on? 10 A: At one point. 11 Q: It's emergency lights on? 12 A: At one point they were. 13 Q: And do you agree that the sirens were 14 on? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. And do you agree with me that 17 you're suppose to pull over when a police car is behind 18 you and it has its lights on? 19 A: I agree that they're not suppose to 20 pull guns on you and level them at you. 21 Q: The question I had was, do you agree 22 with me that when a police car is behind you with its 23 emergency lights on, you're suppose to pull over? 24 A: I don't agree. 25 Q: Do you know whether or not its an
1771 offence not to stop? 2 A: Pardon me? 3 Q: I said do you know whether or not 4 it's an offence not to stop when a police car is behind 5 you with the emergency lights on? 6 A: I would hope that under extenuating 7 circumstances that they would have the compassion to 8 assist me to get help for the people that were shot and 9 that's all I was trying to do. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And they would see -- I figured they 12 would see I wasn't trying to run away from them, I was 13 only going to the pay phone a short distance away. 14 Q: Okay. But when the police were 15 behind you they couldn't have possibly known where you 16 were going, do you agree with that? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: No. No I don't. 21 Q: Okay. How -- Ms. Simon, the police 22 see you come out of the Park -- sorry, out of the camp, 23 they see you come out of the camp very soon after a 24 shooting, they see you go through according to the 25 statement I read to you --
1781 A: Which is a lie. 2 Q: Okay. But what they say is they saw 3 you go through an area when you were asked to stop and 4 you didn't -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 6 to stop for a minute? 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 8 Commissioner. If a hypothetical is to be put properly or 9 they're seen put properly, after a shooting by police 10 officers, a number of shots fired by police officers, 11 that was the scene. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The officers 13 well, go ahead. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I -- 15 I think I have a right to put a hypothetical to the 16 witness and if there's something inaccurate or incorrect 17 about it then you can take that into account. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That is what I said, 19 sir. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: But the police -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There were 22 shots. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 25 Q: There were shots, there were shots.
1791 The police saw you come out of an area near to where the 2 shooting had come from. They saw you go down a road and 3 not stop when asked and they see you head down the 4 highway. 5 How could the police have known where you 6 were going? 7 A: Do they ever account for why they 8 pulled the guns as we were turning the corner and 9 terrifying my mother? That has some relevance as to why 10 I kept going to try to make it to the pay phone. 11 Q: Okay. So you did keep going? You 12 did -- 13 A: To the pay phone. 14 Q: Right. 15 A: Just a short distance away. 16 Q: And I take it that you had no 17 intention of stopping? 18 A: I stopped, at the pay phone. 19 Q: Okay. When the cruiser was behind 20 you with the lights on, you had no intention of stopping? 21 22 Isn't that correct? 23 A: It's not correct. 24 Q: Okay. Do you agree with me that if a 25 cruiser is behind you with the emergency lights on, that
1801 you are expected to pull over and wait for the cruiser? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 3 already asked that question. You've already got an 4 answer to the question. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 7 Q: Okay. Ms. Simon, in your Statement 8 of Claim you had indicated on Page 5 of your statement of 9 claim at Paragraph 19 that: 10 "No attempt was made to stop her 11 overtaking." 12 Do you agree that that is inaccurate? 13 A: What was the page again? 14 Q: It's Page 5. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross, 16 yes, sir. 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, this 18 is not my witness. As a matter of fact, I've got an 19 interest in her evidence. The documents passed out this 20 morning by Mr. Vilko, where they are referring to the 21 sequence of events, referring again to police officers 22 Bell, Lorch and et cetera. 23 Over here on Page -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What 25 document are you referring to? The Statement of Claim?
1811 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No, there's one that 2 is handed out this morning. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, right, 4 right. I'm sorry. 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: So it flies in the 6 face of the -- it causes it to be hypothetical to the 7 extent that it says here, the officer is saying: 8 "I followed and about 100 metres from 9 the intersection I activated my 10 emergency lights. The vehicle 11 continued northbound. I advised 12 command post of the pursuit and asked 13 for directions. About two (2) 14 Kilometres later I was advised not to 15 activate my lights but to follow." 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: So I say this because 18 the hypothetical -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 20 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Sets up one thing and 21 the -- the document's another. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well 23 hypothetical should not be put to a witness as if it were 24 facts and I think that's the question. Was it 25 hypothetical? And there may be facts coming out later
1821 that -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- support 4 the hypothetical or not, but that's what it was. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 8 Q: And, Ms. Simon, you told us that you 9 turned in at the store and you pulled up to the phone 10 booth? 11 A: I did. 12 Q: Okay. And can you tell us whether or 13 not the phone booth was lit? 14 A: I know there were lights in the 15 parking lot there. 16 Q: There were lights in the parking lot. 17 Do you know whether or not there were lights in the phone 18 booth? 19 A: It wasn't a booth, it was an open -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The mike 21 isn't on. Is the mike okay? Okay. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: Ms. Simon, I think sometimes when you 25 move your head back or you sit up, it's hard for your
1831 microphone to catch you and then people can't hear what 2 you're saying. 3 I had -- I'd -- just to go back, I'd asked 4 you whether there was lighting at -- sorry, just to go 5 back to make sure I'm clear, you had talked about a -- 6 A: I was -- 7 Q: -- phone -- 8 A: -- previously advised by the 9 technician that this would pick up and it didn't need to 10 be as close to me as the one last week. He was just here 11 fixing that. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: So -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's working 15 most of the time. Sometimes it -- 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- isn't 18 working, so ... 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 20 THE WITNESS: And it doesn't happen 21 because of where I am, so it's ... 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 25 Q: You had mentioned a phone booth and
1841 I'm just trying to get a sense of what you were referring 2 to. I take it that there was a phone that was encased in 3 a small -- 4 A: It wasn't the kind where you have the 5 complete enclosure. It's just got the sides on it. 6 Q: Okay. So there would be a roof and - 7 - and three (3) sides, is that right? 8 A: I don't even know if there would be a 9 roof, you know. 10 Q: Okay. And the question I think I had 11 was, whether the phone booth was lit. Was there a light 12 inside the phone booth? Do you recall? 13 A: No, I don't recall. 14 Q: Okay. And can you help us understand 15 when you drove into the parking lot by the phone booth, 16 how close was your car to the phone booth? 17 A: Probably from here to the table 18 there. I guess about ten (10) feet. 19 Q: Okay. Okay. And when you got out of 20 the car, did your mom get out of the car or did she stay 21 in the car? 22 A: At some point she was out of the car 23 but not at first. 24 Q: Okay. And then you told us that you 25 dialled for the operator.
1851 A: I did. 2 Q: Okay. And I understand you said at 3 or about that time you noticed that there were police 4 that were out of their cruisers? 5 Did you see the police pull into the 6 Parking lot? 7 A: I looked up when I saw them Parked 8 and standing, using their cruisers for shelter. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: With the shotguns levelled at us. 11 Q: Okay. And can you help us understand 12 when you were speaking on the phone, were you facing in 13 the direction that the police cars were or were you 14 facing away from them? 15 A: At first I was -- I saw them but I 16 was facing directly to the phone-- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- which is -- I'm getting mixed up -- 19 east. 20 Q: Okay, and I take it then that -- 21 A: But if I turned slightly, I could see 22 them. 23 Q: Okay, so I take it then, from a police 24 perspective, they would have been able to see your back 25 or see your side. Is that right?
1861 A: Or the front of me when I turned to 2 look at them. 3 Q: Okay. Did you turn all the way around 4 to look at them or did you just turn your head a bit? 5 A: I don't recall -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- specifically how I moved. 8 Q: Okay, and according to the statements 9 that were provided by the police -- and I'm specifically 10 referring to a statement that was provided by Constable 11 Lorch. He says that he saw you exit your vehicle and go 12 to a pay phone on the wall of the exterior of the 13 building. 14 Was the phone on the wall of the building 15 or was it in a separate phone booth? 16 A: It was on the wall of the building. 17 Q: Okay, and so if you were facing the 18 phone, you would be facing the building. Is that right? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: Okay, and what Constable Lorch says is 21 he observes that you were wearing a green jacket and a 22 hat and I think you've told us that you had on a light 23 green shirt and you didn't know whether or not you were 24 wearing a hat. Is that right? 25 A: I had on a military jacket.
1871 Q: Okay. 2 A: That -- that's just light -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- light I mean, light in material not 5 the colour. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: It's a military green colour. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And I don't recall wearing a hat. I 10 do know I had glasses on -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- that were knocked off later on. 13 Q: Okay, and what he says is, in his 14 statement, is that he came out of his cruiser and with an 15 issued mini-Ruger rifle -- 16 A: Right. 17 Q: -- and he issued the police challenge 18 to the driver -- that's you -- and he told you to put 19 your hands up. Do you recall that? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. Do you recall any of the 22 officers who were there telling you to put your hands up? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you recall -- 25 A: The only -- the only time was when
1881 they almost shot my mother. I recall someone yelling at 2 her to raise her hands and she was pleading with them 3 that she couldn't because she had arthritis. 4 Q: Okay. And I -- Constable Lorch has 5 said in his statement that he told you to hang up the 6 phone. Do you recall that? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And according to Constable Lorch, you 9 told him that you were phoning for an ambulance and he 10 told you that an ambulance had already been called. 11 A: No one at any time -- 12 Q: Do you recall that? 13 A: -- told me there -- there were 14 ambulances called. 15 Q: Okay, and according to Constable Lorch 16 he continued to give you several more warnings to hang up 17 the phone -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- and to put up your hands. 20 A: No. 21 Q: And according to Constable Bell, who 22 was also at the site, he told you that an ambulance had 23 already been called at that time. 24 A: No. 25 Q: And he asked you several more times to
1891 put the phone down and put your hands up. 2 A: No. 3 Q: And you've told us that you turned 4 your back on the police, Ms. Simon? 5 A: True. 6 Q: And do you agree with me that when 7 your back was turned to the police they couldn't see your 8 hands? 9 A: They were still on the phone. 10 Q: Do you agree with me that they 11 couldn't see if you were doing anything with the front of 12 your jacket -- 13 A: No, I wasn't moving. 14 Q: When your back was turned to them? 15 And, one (1) of the questions I was going to ask you is, 16 you told the Coroner's investigator and -- I don't know, 17 if -- if you turn to the Coroner's investigation brief. 18 Do you have that document, Ms. Simon? If 19 you turn to page 10 of that Brief -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this an 21 interview or is the report? 22 MS. KAREN JONES: This is the interview 23 with Ms. Simon. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't have 25 that.
1901 MS. KAREN JONES: And in the documents 2 that we got from Commission Counsel, it was Tab 15. I 3 think Ms. Simon has a different -- you may well have a 4 different index, Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 6 I have that -- let's see where you're going. I'm not 7 sure I have that document. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: Down at the bottom of that page which 13 at the top you may have 2325 and at the bottom you have a 14 page 10. It says: 15 "I don't know who -- I didn't know who 16 to call and it was at that time that 17 the phone was jerked away from me. I 18 remember meeting the girl she grabbed 19 coming up and at some point me over the 20 hood of the car." 21 And I read that and I couldn't understand 22 if you were saying that one (1) of the officers was 23 female? 24 A: This is what I mean about some of the 25 ridiculous errors they've made in the transcription of
1911 that interview. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I don't know what -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I never met a girl over there. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: I never met a girl over there. 8 Q: Okay. And so I understand that you'd 9 say then that the officers were male? 10 A: They were. 11 Q: Okay. And do you know how many of 12 them there were? 13 A: I don't remember all together 14 anymore. 15 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 16 you, Ms. Simon, that after you turned your back on the 17 police and you refused to obey their commands to put your 18 hands up and to put the phone down, that one (1) of the 19 officers pulled you out of the booth. 20 A: I wasn't in a booth. 21 Q: I'm sorry. Pulled you away from the 22 phone? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 24 putting a hypothetical to the witness now? 25 MS. KAREN JONES: No. I'm -- I'm ask --
1921 I'm putting to her a version of events from the police 2 and asking her if that's true or not. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, well-- 4 MS. KAREN JONES: And maybe I can make 5 that a little clear for you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That version 7 has not yet been established so -- 8 MS. KAREN JONES: No, I understand that. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 11 Q: Constable Lorch in his statement that 12 I referred to earlier said that a police officer pulled 13 you away from the phone, do you agree with that? 14 A: Possibly. I don't know how many. It 15 seemed like there was more than one. I know there was 16 one (1) in front of me that jerked the phone away from 17 me. 18 Q: Okay. And then according to Officer 19 Lorch's statement, he told you that you were under arrest 20 for failing to stop, do you agree with that? Or do you 21 disagree with that? 22 A: I strongly disagree with that. It's 23 not true. 24 Q: Okay. And according to Officer 25 Lorch, one (1) of the other constables attempted to get
1931 your hands down and you resisted. Do you remember having 2 a struggle with the police? 3 A: I remember being knocked over the 4 hood of the car and then onto the ground and handcuffed 5 with plastic cuffs. 6 Q: Okay. Do you remember resisting the 7 police? 8 A: No. Just like I turned my back to 9 them to offer the back of my head. They wanted to shoot 10 me with their guns. 11 Q: Okay. So if the police say, Ms. 12 Simon, that you were struggling and kicking, -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- with your -- and moving your arms 15 around, do you disagree with that. 16 A: Disagree. 17 Q: Okay. And in fact the officers say 18 that you were resisting so much that it took two (2) 19 officers to get the handcuffs on you. 20 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 21 with that? 22 A: I disagree. 23 Q: Okay. And after you were handcuffed, 24 Officer Lorch says in his statement that he told you 25 again that you were under arrest for failing to stop.
1941 Do you agree with that or disagree with 2 that? 3 A: I disagree. 4 Q: Okay. Now you said earlier in your 5 evidence that the police wouldn't allow your mother to 6 take her medication. What -- 7 A: I beg your pardon? 8 Q: Okay. In your evidence earlier, you 9 had talked about -- 10 A: In my evidence, where...? 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, please. 12 Wrong again, wrong again, Mr. Commissioner. I think the 13 Witness said, that the police would not allow her mother 14 to use her medicine as in the First Nation's sense of 15 medicine, as opposed to medication. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 Please... 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 20 Mr. Ross. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: Okay. Let me -- what -- what I can 24 do, is I have a copy of your transcript here. I'll see 25 if I can find that section and get that back to you, and
1951 if there's something -- okay. What I have, according to 2 the transcript: 3 "I was -- after I was in an upright 4 position, I was aware of her right down 5 on the ground trying to pray. She had 6 her medicines with her and they 7 wouldn't allow her to use them." 8 And if I misunderstood what you meant by 9 medicines, maybe you can help me understand that better. 10 What did your mother have that she wasn't allowed to use? 11 A: She had her Sacred Medicines. 12 Q: Okay. And where were they? 13 A: They were in her bag. 14 Q: Okay. And where was the bag? 15 A: She had it on the ground where she 16 was trying to pray. 17 Q: Okay. So I take it you're saying, was 18 your mother trying to open the bag? 19 A: And prepare to smudge and pray, -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- using our Sacred Medicines. 22 Q: Okay. And, Ms. Simon, the police 23 will say that throughout this time, that is the time that 24 you were being arrested, that your mother was calm and 25 she was cooperative. Do you agree with that or do you
1961 disagree with that? 2 A: I disagree with it. I could hear her 3 hysterically screaming in the background when I was being 4 knocked to the ground. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: She -- I could hear her pleading with 7 them, that I had a wrist injury. 8 Q: Okay. And, Ms. Simon, the police 9 will say that that wasn't mentioned, that you had a sore 10 wrist. 11 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 12 with that? 13 A: I disagree with that. 14 Q: Okay. And I understand that the 15 police will say that your mother, in addition to being -- 16 calm and cooperative, was the person who had to tell the 17 police who you were, because you refused to speak to 18 them. 19 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 20 with that? 21 A: I don't recall them even asking me 22 who I was? 23 Q: Okay. In the Coroner's investigation 24 summary that we've taken you to before, and I think you 25 have it in front of you, at page 13, and at the top of
1971 the page it's 2328, there's a Section that says: 2 "At some point, I don't know if they 3 got a response and this one, officer 4 was yelling at me and asking me if I 5 called for ambulances. After being 6 treated like that I thought I don't 7 think I should tell them because 8 they're gonna stop." 9 And you go on: 10 "They just kept yelling and yelling and 11 finally they said it's a simple enough 12 question and I don't know if that got 13 through or whether there was a question 14 about that night. I just refused to 15 talk to them when whey were like that." 16 And I'm going to suggest to you, Ms. 17 Simon, that when the police asked you questions, you 18 wouldn't answer their questions. 19 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 20 with that? 21 A: I disagree with that. They were 22 hysterical and screeching at the tops of their voices at 23 me. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And unless they could calm down and I
1981 felt that I could talk with them, I felt anything that I 2 said to them would give them reason to shoot me. 3 Q: Okay. And you've said that your 4 glasses were knocked off and left lying on the ground. 5 Did you ever tell the officers that your 6 glasses had fallen off? 7 A: Yes, plus they would have seen me with 8 my glasses on. 9 Q: Okay. Who did you tell? Do you 10 recall? 11 A: I don't know what their names are. 12 Q: Can you describe any of the people 13 that you're referring ? 14 A: The police officers. 15 Q: Right. Can you describe them any 16 further than that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. And you've said that they got 19 your purse and threw your things on the Parking lot, and 20 I -- Ms. Simon, the officers will deny that your things 21 from your purse were thrown over the Parking lot. 22 And do you agree with that or do you 23 disagree with that? 24 A: That they would lie and disagree that 25 they were thrown?
1991 Q: No, I'm asking you -- the officers say 2 that they didn't throw your things all over the Parking 3 lot and I'm just asking you if you agree or disagree with 4 that statement. 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I would like to know, 6 where in the documents is there anything that the 7 officers are saying that they did not throw her stuff 8 around the Parking lot? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, if you 10 want the document, I'm sure it will be produced. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean, it's 13 just -- I presume you're quoting the document accurately. 14 If you want to get it, I'm sure it will be produced. 15 Do you want the document, the total 16 document? 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Yes, please. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 19 referring to Constable Lorch's summary and in that 20 document he talks about and also Constable Bell -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you say 22 his summary or -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, his summary. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where is 25 that document?
2001 MS. KAREN JONES: Those -- those were 2 documents -- I'm sorry again -- that were handed out by 3 the government last week. And there are reports from 4 Constable Duggan, there are reports from Constable Lorch, 5 reports from Constable Branston (phonetic) and reports 6 from Constable Bell. 7 And they talk, in those reports, about 8 items that they handled and what they did with them and 9 there is nothing in those reports that suggests that 10 there items thrown on the ground. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, all 12 Counsel were given copies of these documents? Were all 13 Counsel -- 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I -- 15 I know last week I was given the package of documents and 16 I'm assuming other Counsel got the documents as well. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Those were -- 18 Commissioner, if I might, those were documents that Mr. 19 Myrka distributed last week that had been documents that 20 were -- had been produced in the litigation between Mrs. 21 Simon and the government. 22 And the -- the government waived the 23 privilege over those documents for the purposes of the 24 Inquiry and Mr. Myrka distributed them. I can't remember 25 which day last week, but one (1) day there was a bundle
2011 of them. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Okay. And, Ms. Simon, according to 6 Constable Lorch, he spoke with your mother. Did you see 7 any of the police officers speak with your mother after 8 you were arrested? 9 A: I would assume they had to. They took 10 her to her home in Kettle Point. 11 Q: What Constable Lorch says in his 12 statement is that he spoke with your mom and that she 13 gave him permission to check the car for weapons. 14 Did you hear any conversation like that -- 15 A: No, I didn't. 16 Q: -- between the police and your mom? 17 A: But it was my car. 18 Q: Okay, and Constable Lorch says that 19 when you were put in the cruiser, he read you your 20 rights. 21 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 22 with that? 23 A: I disagree with that. 24 Q: And then he says in his statement that 25 you asked to be read them again and he did so.
2021 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 2 with that? 3 A: I disagree. 4 Q: And according to Constable Lorch's 5 statement, you then said you wanted to call a lawyer and 6 you were told that you could do so at the Detachment. 7 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 8 with that? 9 A: I disagree with that. 10 Q: Okay. And then you've told us that 11 the police promised to take your mom home and they put 12 her in the back of a cruiser. I think you told that to 13 the Commissioner in your evidence-in-chief? 14 You asked them to take her to her home in 15 Kettle Point? Is that correct? 16 A: I don't recall them promising to take 17 her there. 18 Q: Okay. The officers did take your mom 19 home; that's fair? 20 A: When I got there -- 21 Q: Your mom was there? 22 A: She was. 23 Q: Okay. And according to Constable 24 Bell you asked the police to leave your car at the store. 25 A: No, I didn't.
2031 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 2 didn't hear that question. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: According to Constable Bell's 6 statement, Ms. Simon asked that her car be left at the 7 store. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 11 Q: Where the phone was and I'm going to 12 suggest to you that the police did as you asked and they 13 left your car at the store. 14 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 15 with that? 16 A: No, I disagree. 17 Q: And according to Constable Bell your 18 car was locked, so, it was secure while it was in the 19 Parking lot. 20 Do you agree with that or disagree with 21 that? 22 A: I don't remember. 23 Q: Okay. And according to Constable 24 Lorch your mom was given the keys so that she would have 25 the keys to the car for you.
2041 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 2 with that? 3 A: I don't remember that. 4 Q: Okay. And I think you told us a 5 couple of times in your evidence today, when you were 6 talking about the phones, that you'd been denied the 7 right to have a telephone at Stony Point. 8 Is that correct? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And I think you told us that you've 11 been denied that right to this day. Is that correct? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And in the brief that we got from 18 Commission Counsel, at Tab 13, and I'm not sure where it 19 is in your black binder, Ms. Simon, but there's a 20 document entitled "Inside Camp Ipperwash - a Community 21 Builds". 22 Can you find that document? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You see on the second page of that 25 document, there's a picture of Rose Manning on the phone
2051 and what it says is: 2 "A payphone located in the community 3 kitchen installed March 22 is a great 4 convenience to Stony Point residents 5 like Rose Manning." 6 Is there -- is there a phone at Stony 7 Point? 8 A: That's a payphone. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: But I don't believe it's there. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: I don't believe it's there. 13 Q: Do you believe the phone was there in 14 April of -- May -- March or April of 1996 when this 15 picture was taken and the article was written? 16 A: It's possible. 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And you talk then about being taken 22 in a cruiser first of all to Ravenswood? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then transferred to a paddy 25 wagon?
2061 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I understand from looking at 3 Constable Etchier's notes that that happened at about ten 4 after midnight? 5 Do you know -- do you know the time that 6 you were taken to the -- 7 A: No I don't. My glasses were left on 8 the -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- parking lot. 11 Q: Okay. And then you talked about 12 being in the garage area and you said that someone came 13 up behind you and hit you on the shoulder and took your 14 jacket. 15 And I'm going to -- and we have in our 16 material... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: A statement from Constable Leblanc 21 and he says in his statement that he was the person who 22 told you that you shouldn't be wearing Canadian Forces' 23 uniforms. 24 And he will deny that he hit you, do you 25 agree with that or do you disagree with that?
2071 A: Do I agree that he would deny it? 2 Q: No. He says that he didn't hit you. 3 Do you agree with that statement or do you disagree with 4 that statement? 5 A: He hit me. 6 Q: Okay. And where do you say he hit 7 you? 8 A: In the shoulder. 9 Q: Okay and which shoulder do you say he 10 hit you on? 11 A: That would be the left. 12 Q: I'm sorry? 13 A: The left -- left shoulder. 14 Q: And then Constable Etchier took some 15 notes that night as well. She was a police constable who 16 at the jail. And she says at 0233 hours she asked you if 17 you wanted to contact a lawyer. 18 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 19 with that? 20 A: It's possible but it only happened 21 after I'd made it clear that I had not been allowed to 22 call and I thought my rights guaranteed me at least that. 23 But they didn't do it on their own. 24 Q: Okay. She said that you wanted to 25 speak with Spike George and that she told you he was
2081 Strathroy Hospital. 2 Do you agree with that, that she said that 3 to you? 4 A: I don't know here name but someone 5 did tell me something to that effect. 6 Q: And Constable Etchier indicated in 7 her notes that she offered to help you get in touch with 8 Legal Aid and you refused that assistance. 9 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 10 with that? 11 A: I don't remember that. I didn't know 12 who to call. The only lawyer I could think of was Spike. 13 Q: Okay. And according to Constable 14 Etchier's notes, even though Mr. George was at the 15 hospital and wasn't readily available, she got him on the 16 telephone for you? 17 A: Somebody did. 18 Q: Okay. And I understand that you had 19 an opportunity to speak with him in private? 20 A: Where? 21 Q: In private? There was no one else in 22 the room when you were speaking with Mr. George on the 23 phone? 24 A: I don't remember. 25 Q: Okay. And then according to
2091 Constable Etchier's notes, she spent the next hour trying 2 to find someone who could pick you up and take you home. 3 And I take it you have no reason to 4 disagree with that statement? 5 A: I can't agree or disagree. I have no 6 knowledge of her doing that. 7 Q: Okay. And then you told us when the 8 police were driving you home, they drove you all around 9 the back roads. 10 Can you tell us where you say they drove 11 you? 12 A: The back roads. 13 Q: Pardon me? 14 A: The back roads. 15 Q: Which -- 16 A: Out of Forest, out here but as I said 17 I didn't have my glasses, all I was aware is that they 18 didn't take me directly home. I had told them I was 19 perfectly capable of walking home and I was denied to be 20 released when they told me I was being released. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And eventually took me to Indian 23 Hill's Golf Course. 24 Q: Okay. Can you help us understand how 25 far Indian Hill's Golf Course if from Forest?
2101 A: I don't know. Five (5) miles? 2 Q: Okay. And Constable Clellan 3 (phonetic) who is one (1) of the officers who was in the 4 car with you said that during the course of that drive 5 you were talkative and you never complained of being 6 injured or complained of being assaulted. 7 Do you agree with that statement or do you 8 disagree with that statement? 9 A: No, I disagree but I certainly wasn't 10 going to tell him about my injuries. 11 Q: Did you tell him about -- did you 12 complain to him? Sorry, do you say that you complained 13 to him about being injured or being assaulted? 14 A: He wasn't a doctor. I wasn't about 15 to tell him those kinds of details. 16 Q: And according to Officer Etchier's 17 notes, they left the Detachment at 0419 hours and that 18 you were picked up at the Golf Club at 0434 hours; that 19 is approximately fifteen (15) minutes later. 20 Do you agree with that or do you disagree 21 with that? 22 A: It's possible. 23 Q: Okay. And you say in your Statement 24 of Claim, one (1) of the complaints that you make, is 25 that you were released into the night --
2111 A: No, that's not -- that's not 2 accurate. I think there was an error made there. 3 Q: Okay. Because, in fact, you were 4 driven to your home. 5 A: No, I was taken to the Golf Course 6 and transferred to an unmarked -- and then I was taken to 7 my mother's home. 8 Q: I'm sorry, to your mother's home. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you just 10 about finished? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm just about finished 12 with that area, Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're not 14 just about finished? 15 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm not just about 16 finished. I have two (2) more areas to cover. I see 17 it's about 5:00. Would you like to stop for today? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 19 would. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long do 22 you think you might be? 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, I told you before 24 I thought I would be about an hour and I've taken much 25 longer than that. I think I will be about another half
2121 hour. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 3 would be a good time to adjourn. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have to 6 come back tomorrow, regrettably. We hoped we might 7 finish with you today, but that is not going to happen, 8 so, let's adjourn now. What time do we reconvene 9 tomorrow? Oh, I'm sorry, there's some -- 10 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I'm 11 sorry, I just have one -- a very quick thing to mention, 12 and it's something that arose out of a conversation I had 13 with Mr. -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps 15 Counsel would sit down again, we haven't adjourned yet 16 for today. 17 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: I didn't think they 18 were standing for me, Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 20 Horton...? 21 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: I just asked Mr. 22 Miller a question and he's turned it back to me to ask 23 all Counsel, so I just thought this would be a convenient 24 time to do that. 25 And -- and the question that I asked was,
2131 whether or not at the hearing of the Motion, it would be 2 acceptable for Clients from whom we take instructions, 3 who have signed the Undertaking of Confidentiality, and 4 who are therefore aware of the evidence that we're 5 talking about, to be present to -- to hear the Motion. 6 And Mr. Miller has asked me to ask 7 Counsel, generally, whether or not there is any view 8 about that. And my concern is that I would like to know 9 if there's going to be an issue about that that we need 10 your ruling on by tomorrow morning because, obviously, 11 people will have to be told whether they can be here or 12 not. 13 I might mention that one of my clients was 14 here today, I didn't assume there was a problem with it. 15 But before arranging a re-attendance, I thought maybe I 16 would clarify that. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 18 do you want to say what your position is? I take it that 19 you don't have any objection to the clients being here. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I have no 21 objection to clients who have signed the Undertaking of 22 Confidentiality to participate, on the basis that they've 23 already agreed to keep confidential the information that 24 they've received. 25 The one thing that will have to be --
2141 Counsel will have to advise us because we don't have all 2 of those copies here, as to who has signed and who has 3 not signed. So, we will rely on Counsel. 4 But I wanted to make -- I wanted Mr. 5 Horton to raise it, as he has, so that other Counsel 6 could consider it overnight. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does anybody 8 have any objection to the proposition that the clients 9 who have signed the Confidentiality Agreement being 10 allowed to remain in the Hearing Room during the 11 Arguments of the in-camera Motion? Does anybody have any 12 objection? 13 No objections. So, that's the way we will 14 go. Thank you very much. 15 We're adjourned until ten o'clock tomorrow 16 morning. Thank you very much. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 18 adjourned until Tuesday, September 28th, at 10:00 a.m. 19 20 --- Upon adjourning at 5:01 p.m. 21 22 23 24 25
2151 2 3 Certified Correct, 4 5 6 7 8 _____________________ 9 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25