1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 September 23nd, 2004 25


1 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) (np) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 4 5 YVONNE BONNIE BRESSETTE, Resumed 6 Continued Cross-Examination 7 By Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 7 8 Cross-Examination By Ms. Karen Jones 40 9 Cross-Examination By Mr. William Henderson 66 10 Re-Direct Examination By Mr. Derry Millar 73 11 12 MARCIA FLORA GEORGE SIMON, Sworn 13 Examination-In-Chief By Mr. Donald Worme 78 14 15 16 17 18 19 Certificate of Transcript 196 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-48 Recording of a 9-1-1 call 4 received September 6, 1995. 174 5 P-49 Book of documents for 6 Marcia Simon 177 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:04 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 9 Mr. Commissioner. Good morning, Mrs. Bressette. 10 MS. YVONNE BRESSETTE: Good morning. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 morning. 13 14 YVONNE BONNIE BRESSETTE, Resumed: 15 16 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 17 Q: Could you pick up where we left off 18 last night and you've -- already you're ahead me. You're 19 already at Tab 3. And I want to take you back to the 20 document that has been marked as Exhibit P-43 in these 21 proceedings. 22 And I want to continue with the next 23 individual whom I understand spoke at the meeting and 24 that is at page 18, Mrs. Bressette. And it's Donna Jean 25 Bressette. Do I have that correct?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Because again, it's in -- in 3 handwriting; it's a little difficult to read. And I 4 want to take you, if I can, about six (6) lines in. And 5 I understand that she says the following at the meeting: 6 "I am afraid for the young people. 7 Alcohol has no place and that is all 8 that is there." 9 And it would appear that "there" is -- is 10 referring to the Stony Point area. 11 "A woman was raped on that beach and 12 now there have been two (2) deaths. I 13 heard there was fighting there on the 14 weekend and I thought the people were 15 going to fight with the army." 16 And again, having regard to your comments 17 yesterday, we're going to -- to assume that this is an 18 accurate transcription of what Donna Jean Bressette had 19 to say at the meeting; would that be fair? 20 A: It would be. 21 Q: Okay. And first of all, can you tell 22 us who Donna Jean Bressette is? Again, she does not 23 appear to be a Councillor, but obviously she's a member 24 of the Kettle and Stony Point Band. 25 A: She's a member of the Kettle and


1 Stony Point band. She is chief Tom Bressette's wife. 2 Q: She's chief Tom Bressette's wife. 3 All right, thank you. And she is referring to a sexual 4 assault which she has indicated occurred on "that beach". 5 Do you know what she's referring to there? 6 A: No I don't. She brought that up at 7 the meeting. 8 Q: So, this is the first time you 9 learned of -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- anything of that nature? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you -- did you ask her about 14 that afterwards? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: You did not? 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. And she also refers to 19 two (2) deaths and again there doesn't appear to be any 20 context in particular to her remarks. Do you know what 21 she's referring to there? 22 A: I thought when she's mentioned that, 23 that was when Barbara George, when her son had died up in 24 Owen Sound and she said it was related to Stony Point and 25 then Dudley. I thought -- that's the way that I had --


1 didn't ask her, but I assumed that's what she was talking 2 about. 3 Q: I'm sorry? The second death you said 4 related to...? 5 A: No, no. Not Dudley. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: The first one was related to -- when 8 Barbara George spoke about her son and if you back to 9 Barbara George's -- I think it's Barbara's information. 10 You go back there, Barbara talks about another death. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: That was what I assumed it was and 13 like I said, I only knew of the one and that was 14 Barbara's son who had died up in Owen Sound. 15 Q: And again, I trust that you chose -- 16 again for whatever reason, not to pursue this with Donna 17 Jean Bressette. 18 A: It's not that I -- myself or any of 19 the Councillors don't intend to pursue anything. We have 20 tried to set -- one person on a Council cannot be 21 everything to everybody in the community. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: You cannot be a councillor in a sense 24 of counselling people -- 25 Q: Yes.


1 A: You cannot be the law in -- in 2 instances that they're talking about in there. That's 3 handled -- our police would be looking at anything like 4 that. 5 The Band Council attempts to put every 6 service in our community that we feel our people need and 7 we can acquire, because you're living in a community it's 8 not as if I'm -- okay, if a politician in one (1) area 9 when they're at a meeting, they can go home to their 10 house. 11 And, it -- you know, it may be a distance 12 or what from whatever circumstance their addressing, but 13 with us, it's -- we all in a simplest way to put it, is 14 we all live, breath and eat -- you know, together. We're 15 right close neighbours. 16 So, we've tried to separate politics from 17 administration and services and look at the best way to 18 serve the people is to put the services in with qualified 19 people to address on any of these and then there's a 20 follow-up when we have our meetings. 21 The follow-up is anything in there that 22 would be for the police to address would be directed to 23 the police. Anything for whatever area it is would be 24 directed to that. 25 When you're looking back at the others, it


1 would be more than likely the counselling services that 2 we have; we've got a very large health centre -- that 3 there's every service in there. 4 But it -- you can ask somebody about 5 something like that, but when she was told it's all still 6 what somebody told her. 7 So, what I do is I keep my ears open and 8 listen to -- and I don't go around questioning people 9 because at a time like this you don't want someone to 10 think that you're just, lack of better words, being nosey 11 and -- and wanting something to talk about. That's what 12 happens in small communities. 13 And anything like this -- I had never 14 heard of the rape that was mentioned here before and I 15 have never heard of it since. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: Donna Jean Bressette also refers to 19 alcohol and there's -- there's an implicit suggestion in 20 her comment here that perhaps there's some alcohol abuse 21 going on. Were you aware of any -- any alcohol abuse 22 going on over at Stony Point? 23 A: No. Because I never seen -- when I 24 was down there I never seen anybody with alcohol. We 25 have an alcohol problem in our community at Kettle


1 Point -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- and that's where addressing that 4 we have an alcohol counsellor in there. I think every 5 community has an alcohol problem really if they think 6 about it. 7 Q: I think you're probably right. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. I want to take you then to 10 page 22 if I can and in particular the comments of Gladys 11 -- is it Moohham? 12 A: Lunham. 13 Q: Lunham, thank you. L-U-N-H-A-M. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And approximately six (6) lines in, 16 she says the following: 17 "Last Thursday, I went down to the 18 beach and they told me they didn't want 19 me to sit there. There was a man 20 across from me, a stranger and I asked 21 what he was doing there. 22 He said his name was Bruce Elijah and 23 he was hired by the Kettle Point Band 24 to talk to the people." 25 Now pausing there. In your capacity as


1 Councilor, were you aware or do you have any knowledge of 2 the fact that Mr. Elijah had been hired for the purpose 3 that appears to be represented to Ms. Lunham? 4 A: Kettle Point -- Kettle and Stony 5 Point Band Council did not hire Bruce Elijah. 6 Q: Thank you. She goes on to say: 7 "He said he was a shit disturber. I 8 heard enough in a few minutes. He was 9 telling the people to go the OKA way to 10 settle things." 11 So, this appears to be an individual who 12 actually -- from the comments, it would appear that she 13 was actually down on the Stony Point property; is that 14 fair? 15 A: That's what I understand here. 16 Q: All right. So here's someone who -- 17 who isn't relying upon information from the media. This 18 is somebody who's had a first hand experience it would 19 appear; is that correct? 20 A: Yes. If she was down there. But I 21 can't -- if she heard that I don't -- I wasn't there. 22 So, I don't know what she heard. 23 Q: I understand that. And I -- I 24 wouldn't ask you anything of that nature. But what I 25 will ask you is and -- and I anticipate that I'll know --


1 I know your answer, but again, did you follow up with her 2 in relation to any of the comments that she had made? 3 A: No. Because I know Bruce Elijah and 4 he was not hired by the Band Council. He came in and 5 Bruce Elijah has always been an individual that I would 6 have seen and I still see him as a person that is very 7 concerned that there be no violence. 8 Q: Okay. Do you have any explanation 9 for her attributing to him the comment that he was 10 telling the people to go the OKA way to settle things? 11 A: I don't know why he would have said 12 that if he did or why she would have said that. 13 Q: All right. I trust that it's your 14 position that you would not have wanted things to be 15 settled the "OKA way" having regard to -- if -- if we can 16 attribute any meaning to that -- that term or turn a 17 phrase? 18 A: No, because nobody wants anything 19 settled that way but that's kind of putting me on the 20 spot of -- I don't know what the "OKA way" was, other 21 than what I see on TV. 22 Q: That's fair. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I don't 24 know if My Friend's going to continue, but the -- the 25 Witness, Mrs. Bressette, said she wasn't there. She


1 doesn't know if Mr. Elijah said these things. 2 She only knows what Gladys Lunham said at 3 the meeting and she cannot get into the minds of these 4 two people, and figure out what they meant or were trying 5 to convey or not. So, I simply think it's inappropriate 6 to ask this witness to speculate on what somebody else 7 was -- may or may not have been thinking. 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I appreciate My 9 Friend's comments. I don't intend to explore it any 10 further -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She was at 15 the meeting and I think your questions so far have been 16 okay. 17 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, let's 19 carry on. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 22 Q: All right. I'd like to, Mrs. 23 Bressette, if we can, turn to another area. And it's 24 quite clear from your testimony, and frankly what I've 25 read about you, that you very strongly believe in


1 peaceful efforts to reclaim your land at Stony Point? 2 A: I always have, yes. 3 Q: All right. And I trust that you, as 4 a Member of your community, and as a recognized leader in 5 your community, you would not condone violence, in order 6 to achieve this goal? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And indeed you wouldn't condone the 9 use of weaponry, including firearms, to achieve that 10 goal? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. I just want to ask your - 13 - about your knowledge in relation to the surrender of 14 two weapons. And I -- I anticipate that we're going to 15 hear that on September the 16th, 1995, a .22 Cooey rifle 16 and a sawed-off shotgun with the words, "Bastard 17 Blaster", were turned in to the Kettle and Stony Point 18 First Nations Police, and that they in turn were passed 19 on to the OPP two (2) days later. 20 And my only inquiry in that regard is 21 whether you have any information as to how those two (2) 22 weapons were located? 23 A: Could I speak with Bill first? 24 Q: Yes, of course. 25 A: Okay. I'll be honest with you, they


1 were found in my brother's garbage pail. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And he turned them in because he -- I 4 asked him and he says, well they came in my brother's 5 garbage pail. I don't like putting him on there. They 6 weren't at Stony Point. 7 Q: I see. 8 A: These were in the garbage at Kettle 9 Point, in his garbage pail out by the road, and he turned 10 around and he gave them to Miles Bressette, who was the 11 Constable at Kettle Point at the time, and I -- because 12 they were in his garbage, he -- and they weren't his, he 13 turned them in -- into the police. 14 Q: Sounds like the right thing to do in 15 the circumstances. Thank you. 16 All right. I want to move on, then, to 17 your efforts and involvement in the early morning hours 18 of September the 7th. You've already told us that you 19 returned from Sarnia at, somewhere between 12:30 and 20 12:45 in the morning, back up to the Kettle and Stony 21 Point Reserve; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. Except it's probably -- 23 probably between quarter to one (1) and one o'clock, that 24 I would have got there. 25 Q: All right. And you've also spoken to


1 us about a conversation that you had Chief -- with Chief 2 Tom Bressette -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- and part of that conversation 5 quite properly addressed what role the Councilors, or the 6 Chief, needed to assume in what had just transpired, in 7 terms of learning for their own purposes and for their 8 own knowledge, what was going on and to ensure the safety 9 of -- of your people? 10 A: Yes, I wanted to know what we were 11 going to do as Chief and Council, and what did we have to 12 do? 13 Q: And you came to learn that Chief 14 Bressette got on the phone with an individual, you -- 15 you've referred to the name, Carson? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Would you help you in refreshing your 18 memory if I said that man's full name was John Carson? 19 A: I -- that's all he said to me. He 20 didn't say John Carson. 21 Q: Fair enough. 22 A: He just said Carson. 23 Q: And you learned, I gather, that as a 24 result of a telephone call that he had with John Carson, 25 I don't think there'll be any controversy that that is,


1 indeed, his full name -- 2 A: No, whatever. 3 Q: -- that you had been given the go- 4 ahead to come down to Stony Point to speak with the 5 people. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Now, you indicated that 8 you got up to Kettle and Stony Point reserve between 9 12:45 and 1:00 a.m. and I'm going to suggest to you that 10 by the time everything got worked out and you got on the 11 road with your daughter Gail, that it was getting towards 12 close to three o'clock in the morning. 13 Would that be fair? 14 A: No, it was -- it was probably more 15 like just after 2:00 -- 2:30 because we didn't -- I 16 didn't stay there that long because I wanted to get down 17 to Stony Point. 18 Q: I understand. 19 A: And Tom was the first one I -- I went 20 and asked him what happened and he told me and then he 21 made -- I was right beside his car when he made the 22 telephone call. 23 Q: Okay. Mrs. Bressette, before you -- 24 right beside your binder there are two (2) stapled pages 25 and on the top there's a reference to a date of September


1 th 7th, 1995 and there is another scribbling by myself; 2 it's called "Scribe Notes". Do you see that? 3 A: Hmm mmm. 4 Q: All right. And what I anticipate 5 that we're going to hear as -- is that during a set time- 6 frame notes were being kept by a scribe for lack of a 7 better word which presents us with a chronology, in 8 effect, of events. 9 And the scribe was with the OPP and he or 10 she was taking in information and, in effect, creating a 11 bit of a diary or chronology of information as it was 12 coming in. 13 And you'll see that there's an entry at 14 three o'clock in the morning on that day and I'd ask you 15 to look at the third entry in relation to that time, and 16 it identifies a licence plate number 335 CKS an '85 17 Mazda, red in colour. 18 And I trust that's your puddle jumper that 19 you referred to? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And it indicates that 22 it's with Bonnie and Gail Bressette going to base with 23 John Carson's approval after vehicle is checked. 24 Now, it would appear from the scribe notes 25 that the fact that everybody knew that you were on your


1 way with your daughter Gail up to Stony Point was known 2 by three o'clock in the morning at the very least. 3 A: I say this -- I was before that. 4 Q: And frankly it may very well be 5 before that, Mrs. Bressette. It may be that it just 6 didn't get reduced down to a note until three o'clock in 7 the morning. 8 But certainly some time between 2:00 and 9 3:00 you were on your way making your trips, I trust, 10 back and forth to Stony Point reserve? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: It was -- I would say shortly between 15 2:30 and three o'clock we started going down there. 16 Q: Fair enough. Now, if you flick the 17 page, I'm going to -- to see if, again, the scribe notes 18 assist you in refreshing your memory and for My Friend, 19 Mr Millar's benefit, we're looking for the entry at the 20 top of the page that's 4:33. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4:33? 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes. It says 23 page 92 at the top, if that helps as well. There we go. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON:


1 Q: And in response to a question by My 2 Friend, Mr. Millar, Mrs. Bressette, you had indicated 3 that you had not spoken with Mr. Carson that night. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And in fairness to you we're being -- 6 we're asking you to -- to account for events that 7 occurred some nine (9) years ago and frankly, during a 8 time when no doubt your mind was focussed on ensuring the 9 safety of the Stony Point people and so you may not have 10 been taking in everything as it was going on fast and 11 furiously? 12 A: No. I -- I can recall pretty well 13 everything. 14 Q: All right. You'll see at an entry -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- 4:48 a.m. Bonnie Bressette called 17 John Carson; you see that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And I'm going to -- to 20 suggest to you what the nature of that conversation was 21 about to refresh your memory. I'm going to suggest to 22 you that at that time you advised Mr. Carson of the 23 presence of twenty (20) children and forty (40) to fifty 24 (50) adults at Stony Point. 25 Do you recall conveying that information


1 to the OPP? 2 A: No, no. No, I don't. 3 Q: You'd agree with me though that at 4 the time it's fair to say that indeed there were 5 approximately twenty (20) children and forty (40) to 6 fifty (50) people at Stony Point? 7 A: I don't know. I only know who got in 8 my -- the number of -- I can't even tell you the number 9 of people in my car. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mrs. 11 Bressette, would you just wait one second. Mr. Henderson 12 wants to make an observation with respect to -- 13 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: With respect to 14 the document that my client is looking at, the notation 15 at 4:48 is that Brian Bressette, excuse me, called John 16 Carson. 17 It appears that at 4:50, I'm sorry, 4:58 18 John Carson returned that call and that the information 19 My Friend is now referring to is further down in the 20 document. So, I just wanted to ensure that in fairness 21 Mrs. Bressette was directed to the relevant part of the 22 document. 23 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: That's fair. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So, perhaps what we 25 could do is give Mrs. Bressette an opportunity to read


1 the whole page. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you -- 3 have you seen this before, this page? 4 THE WITNESS: I -- I read it yesterday 5 and I read it today. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: And can I comment on this? 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 10 Q: Of course. 11 A: I did not call John Carson. I have - 12 - had no way of calling Mr. Carson; remember -- remember 13 I was dealing with a name. When I got back from Stony 14 Point with children and women in my car, I knew of my 15 Aunt Melba was missing and Marcia my cousin. And that's 16 one thing that was asked me at Stony Point. 17 Find out where -- and it was Glenn, find 18 out where my mom and my sister are. So, because I had no 19 telephone, nothing, when I came back I asked, will you 20 call Carson and ask him if they have any information 21 where Aunt Melba and Marcia is as we don't know where 22 they are. 23 So, that -- I didn't call. Tom called Mr. 24 Carson and then I spoke on the phone and I did not know 25 his name was John Carson. I didn't know the number that


1 Tom had called. And I spoke to him and I asked him: I 2 want to know where my aunt and my niece is? 3 And I also told him that -- asked him: Is 4 the police going in at Stony Point? And he said, no. 5 And there was not one word mentioned about how many kids 6 there was or whatever. 7 My memory must have failed me at that time 8 but nobody asked me how many people was -- because I had 9 got kids from Stony Point to Kettle Point and there was 10 women and I really, be honestly, I never even counted how 11 many got in my car. I would assume no more than six (6) 12 could get in there at a time because it's small. 13 And I never even looked to see who got in 14 my car. But I did not call him, I had no telephone. I 15 got Tom, I said, Tom, we have to call the police; you 16 call Carson, call him and ask him where Aunt Melba and 17 Marcia is. 18 Q: All right. Then I should be more 19 careful in my questioning of you. Because what you're 20 telling us is although you did not initiate the call with 21 Mr. Carson. You nonetheless at some point did get on the 22 phone with a man whom we now, it would appear, is Mr. 23 Carson. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Okay. That's very fair.


1 A: Yeah because it says here, I called 2 him. 3 Q: I understand. 4 A: I didn't call him. 5 Q: I appreciate that. All right. To be 6 quite candid I'm much more interested in knowing about 7 the nature of the conversation that -- that the two (2) 8 of you had. 9 And I -- you've anticipated actually that 10 I was going to put to you that you did make an inquiry 11 about the whereabouts of Marcia Simon and her mother? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 14 from the nature of Mr. Carson's response, he was unaware 15 that time that the two (2) of them were either missing or 16 potentially in police custody; would that be fair? 17 A: Yes. He said he did not know but he 18 would call back when he -- if and when he found out. 19 Q: Good. You've anticipated my next -- 20 my next point which is I was going to suggest to you that 21 he undertook to find out some information and get back to 22 you or to somebody? 23 A: He called Tom's cell phone number 24 again and that's when I spoke to him then. 25 Q: All right. And that I'm going to


1 suggest would appear to be the telephone call that takes 2 place at around 4:58, about ten (10) minutes later after 3 that initial call? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Good. All right. And true to his 6 word he did in fact let you know information about Marcia 7 Simon's whereabouts and the whereabouts of your Aunt 8 Melba; would that be fair? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 11 in the first conversation, going back, the first 12 conversation that you had with Mr. Carson, you asked him 13 to give you time to assist with -- with the people in the 14 park and I'm going to suggest to you that that may very 15 well have been the context of where it came up. 16 How many people were in the park? 17 A: What -- what did I ask him? 18 Q: That you were asking in affect for 19 time to assist getting people out of the park? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You don't recall that? 24 A: I asked Tom, somebody has to go down 25 there and I told him you are the Chief and he said and I


1 was aware of it, but he said I wouldn't be able to go 2 down there. He says who will go down? And at the time I 3 was looking for my husband and I said well Fred and I 4 will go down and then I didn't see Fred and I said I'll 5 go down. 6 So, Tom arranged for me to go down and he 7 told Carson, Bonnie will go down and then Gail was right 8 beside me and she says, well Mom, I'm going too. So, 9 that's when Gail and I -- but I never said I was going 10 down to take anybody out. I wanted to go down and see 11 what the situation was. 12 Because all we heard was Dudley had got 13 shot and Bernard had gotten beat up and that the police 14 had moved in on the park. So, why would I ask to go and 15 bring people out of there? I wanted to go and find out 16 what happened. 17 Q: But I'm going to suggest to you, Mrs. 18 Bressette, that if we look at the timing of these 19 conversations that -- that you're having with Mr. Carson. 20 I trust that by that point you've already started to move 21 the women and the children out. 22 A: Because when I got down there, that's 23 what -- I said what -- I was talking to Glenn and 24 different ones there and -- and I said what can I do? 25 And there was kids there and Glenn said we want the kids


1 to go because we don't know if they're coming in here. 2 Q: Right. 3 A: Because that was his concern. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: So, I said okay, I'll take the kids. 6 So, I started then driving the kids to Kettle Point and 7 there was some women that was also there and they got in 8 the car. 9 Q: And as you've already told us that 10 took approximately four (4) trips as I understand it? 11 A: I think it was four (4) trips I made 12 all together and the last time was when I come back and I 13 was inquiring where Marcia and my aunt was. 14 And then I -- Tom got Carson on the phone 15 and Carson told me the second time he called back to 16 Tom's phone, and he told me that he knew where Marcia and 17 Aunt Melba was and that there was going to be nobody -- 18 they weren't going into the Base. 19 So, I went -- that was my last trip down 20 there to tell them that he wasn't going into the Base and 21 tell them that they said Aunt Melba where she was and 22 where Marcia was. 23 Q: All right. And good, because you 24 again, you've anticipated another point that I wanted to 25 put to you which was that during the course of that


1 second call, Mr. Carson, I'm going to suggest who made it 2 clear to you that the OPP were not going to go into Stony 3 Point, correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And furthermore, he requested of you 6 that you convey that to the people that were down there? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I trust again, because of the 9 person that -- that you are, that you indicated that 10 indeed you would do that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I trust ultimately that you did? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. Now, I want to ask you 15 one (1) more thing about the first conversation that you 16 had with Mr. Carson. 17 Do you recall, and again it -- it's been a 18 long time, do you recall that you had conveyed to him 19 that you had taken your cousins some dinner earlier in 20 the day? 21 A: When I talked to him here? 22 Q: Yes. In the first call. 23 A: No, that -- no, I don't recall 24 talking to him about having -- taken down there. 25 Q: Or -- and the fact, perhaps it was in


1 the context that you had actually been down to the park 2 earlier in the day. 3 A: No, I don't recall that. My -- mine 4 was just how do I go and go down there and find out 5 what's going on? 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: There wasn't no social call about 8 anything. Like, I wasn't talking about dinner or 9 anything with him. Why would I? 10 Q: To put in context the fact that you 11 had been there earlier to speak with the people that were 12 there. 13 A: No, I never -- that was not part of 14 my conversation. 15 Q: All right. Did you ever convey to 16 him something to the effect of -- that you had asked the 17 people who were engaged in the sit -- in the sit-in, in 18 effect, what it would take for them to leave, in other 19 words, what would make them feel good or confident that 20 they could leave the park? 21 A: No, I did not. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just wait a 23 minute, Mrs. Bressette. Mr. Henderson...? 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, we 25 -- we seem to be embarking on the speculative content of


1 a conversation which apparently did take place. If there 2 is some indication other than the record that we're 3 looking at kept by a scribe, that Mrs. Bressette ever 4 engaged in such dialogue with Mr. Carson if he was indeed 5 the other -- the man at the other end of the line, 6 perhaps that could be put to her rather than speculate on 7 what she may or may not have said, however consistent or 8 inconsistent it might be with her previous testimony? 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I hear My 10 Friend and, Mr. Commissioner, I can acknowledge that it's 11 my shortcoming that I did not bring my copy of the phone 12 call with me, otherwise I would have put it to the 13 witness in fairness to her, to help refresh her memory. 14 Because, again, it's a long time ago. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: And I -- I 17 suspect that it would be rather difficult and time 18 consuming and we don't want to wish -- we don't want to 19 waste your time, sir, to try and dig it up for the 20 purposes of playing it for the witness. 21 Now, I want to make it clear that I'm not 22 in any way suggesting that Mrs. Bressette is trying to be 23 in any way misleading. In fairness to her, it's been a 24 long time ago but unfortunately the logistics of this are 25 such that I'm not in an immediate position to play it for


1 her benefit. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assumed 3 that you had some evidence -- 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- either 6 written, or oral. What do you suggest we do? If you 7 don't have it, it doesn't seem fair to be asking the 8 Witness questions about it. What do you suggest we do? 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Well, we can do 10 a number of things. I -- I suppose we could -- I don't 11 know whether Commission Counsel even have those tapes 12 here. I suspect that they don't. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 14 know. If they do, I don't think they could put their 15 hands on them that quickly. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And actually the 17 communication tapes are in Toronto so that -- and the 18 telephone calls from the command centre are in Toronto. 19 So, I can't isolate a file. 20 What I could do is -- is try to get -- see 21 if we can isolate the call and have it e-mailed in an 22 electronic form and then picked up but that would take 23 some time. 24 And it would necessitate going to 25 somewhere where one could get into the internet which we


1 cannot do from our place. So, it's ver difficult to do 2 that. But I could do it if necess -- try to do it if 3 necessary. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And this is 5 an area that you wish to pursue? I'm sorry -- I'm asking 6 you, Ms. Jackson. You wish to -- this is an area that 7 you wish to continue and pursue in your cross- 8 examination? 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I certainly 10 would like Mrs. Bressette's comments in this regard and 11 again, I don't wish to be seen to be suggesting that 12 she's not being truthful in any way -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 14 understand that, but -- 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to be 17 fair to her, she should see what you're questioning her 18 about. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: It would, I'm 20 sure, assist her in refreshing her memory. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, have you 22 got a solution, Mr. Henderson? 23 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I think the -- 24 the only solution in the circumstance, and certainly the 25 one I urge upon you, sir, is that absent of the


1 availability of whatever evidence there was of this 2 content, and of course if there is -- if there is a tape, 3 we should hear it and Mrs. Bressette should hear it, and 4 if that's not going to be possible, then this line of 5 questioning should not continue. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps we 7 could stand it down and do it at a later time, I don't 8 want to prevent you from pursuing a line of questioning 9 that you think is important. 10 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: To be -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I -- 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- to be 13 candid, Mr. Commissioner, I suspect that the tape will 14 speak for itself. And -- and again, if it will be 15 necessary, I suppose, and if it were not inconvenient to 16 Mrs. Bressette, we could ask her to come back. 17 Again, I don't want to interrupt the flow 18 of the evidence heard at the Hearing. And I anticipate 19 that we will hear evidence from the other party, to the 20 conversation. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And if it's 22 necessary to recall her, then perhaps we could at that 23 time. 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Exactly. As I 25 said, I'm not trying to impugn anything to this


1 witness, -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 3 understand that. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- so it's not 5 as crucial that -- that we stop everything to have it 6 played, Mr. Commissioner. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. Let me -- 8 perhaps I could just make a comment. It's only lawyers 9 who expect people to remember things from nine (9) years 10 ago or ten (10) years ago or fifteen (15) years ago or 11 whatever, it's only lawyers, perhaps sometimes police 12 officers. 13 And, what I would ask is, there are 14 thousands of hours of communications that the Ontario 15 Provincial Police have and if someone wants to refer to a 16 telephone conversation, that they provide the details of 17 that conversation to Commission Counsel, so that 18 Commission Counsel can advise other parties and the 19 Witness, because it -- notwithstanding Mrs. Bressette's 20 view -- opinion that she's -- remembers everything, when 21 you're in the midst of a stressful thing, it helps to 22 have something that helps to refresh your memory. And 23 it's -- and I would simply ask that, because it's nine 24 (9) years ago. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought


1 Counsel was asking about the notes that we do have. If 2 you're going beyond that, I think what you're suggesting 3 makes infinite good sense. Excuse me, another Counsel 4 wishes to speak. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 7 speaking on behalf of the OPPA. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: -- Mr. Commissioner, 9 I'm wondering if we can assist at all. As I understood 10 from exchange back and forth, part of the problem about 11 getting the excerpt from the phone is a lack of internet 12 access? Is that one of the problems? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we have to -- 14 yes, it's lack of it, but we also have to make sure that 15 -- I don't know if they've extracted that. It'll take us 16 some time. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But, if -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: I -- I was just -- 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Ms. Jones has 21 Internet access back in -- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: We do. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the back. We can 24 use her internet's access, that's great. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: I was just going to


1 offer our assistance if we could help you out, Mr. 2 Commissioner, if that would make -- speed things up a 3 little bit. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'll let you 5 discuss that with Mr. Millar, thank you. 6 But I think we better stand this part of 7 your cross-examination down, and if we need to call Mrs. 8 Bressette back, we will. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, because once we 10 have the call, then we can let Mrs. Bressette listen to 11 it, and I thank Ms. Jones for her offer. 12 But the point that I -- one of the points 13 I was trying to make is, if there is a telephone call, 14 such as this kind of a telephone call, we're not 15 magicians, we don't know everything that's on these tapes 16 and, as perhaps the Ontario Provincial Police does, and 17 we would like them to provide us with the extracts in 18 electronic format so that we can then use them. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 20 fine. Are you able to proceed with any other part of 21 your cross-examination? 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, thank you, 23 Mr. Commissioner. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON:


1 Q: The final area, Mrs. Bressette, I 2 wanted to ask you about, you had indicated, I believe, 3 yesterday in response to My Friend, Mr. Orkin's question, 4 something to the effect of, that no one, and I gather you 5 meant from the OPP, had attempted to speak with the 6 people who were engaged in a sit-in at the park; do I 7 have that correct? 8 A: Because I've never seen anybody 9 attempt to talk with them. 10 Q: While you were there? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. Thank you very much. 13 Mrs. Bressette, those are all my questions, you'll be 14 pleased to know. Thank you for your time and your 15 presence. 16 A: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. I think the OPPA would like to cross-examine 19 her. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: Good morning. 25 A: Good morning.


1 Q: Mrs. Bressette, I'm Karen Jones, I'm 2 one of the lawyers who's acting for the Ontario 3 Provincial Police Association. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: Okay. And Mrs. Bressette, I wanted 6 to ask you some questions to get a little bit better 7 understanding about when you were in the Base, how often 8 you were there and that kind of thing. I had understood 9 when you were speaking with Mr. Millar, yesterday, -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- that you told him that you hadn't 12 participated in the occupation of Camp in 1993, but you'd 13 go over and visit your family and friends there on and 14 off -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- in 1993 and 1994 and 1995? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And it wasn't clear to me from 19 that, how often you went there. Did you go there 20 frequently -- 21 A: No, it wasn't very -- 22 Q: -- or did you go there infrequently? 23 A: -- it wasn't very often -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- probably I dropped down, maybe


1 once every two (2) weeks or when they had -- there was 2 one night we were in under around by the apple trees in 3 the -- in at the Base that I -- I was there for a -- the 4 sessions in the evenings. 5 Q: Okay. And, I think you told him that 6 you didn't stay there overnight? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. Were you there generally 9 during the daytime? 10 A: I would go during the daytime if I 11 went to visit. 12 Q: Okay. And when you went there, were 13 there some particular people that you visited? 14 A: My cousins. 15 Q: Okay. Can you help us understand who 16 you would have visited? 17 A: I would go visit Glenn, and most -- 18 mostly was to go visit with Glenn and visit -- see Judas, 19 anyone of them, my cousins, Coley, Caroline George, just 20 whoever was around, I was out when they were out on the 21 range, I was visiting with some of the -- the older 22 people that was there, talking about what it was like 23 when we lived at Stony Point. 24 Q: Okay. And when you were visiting at 25 the Camp, did you ever visit Dudley in his trailer?


1 A: Dudley was always around where -- no, 2 I never went to Dudley's trailer. 3 Q: Okay. And, can you help us 4 understand in the summer of 1995 -- can you help us 5 understand who was staying at the camp that summer? 6 A: I am not aware of anybody who was 7 staying there, other than my cousins and now and then I 8 would go and I -- when I would go down, I would see other 9 people from other First Nations, but they were like me -- 10 I just assumed they were like me, visiting. 11 So, I'm not aware who was all living there 12 except Cliff, I knew where his trailer and cabin were, 13 and I knew where Terry George's was, but I'd been neither 14 one of them. 15 When I would go in, I would maybe stop and 16 talk with somebody and then go for a ride, or back there 17 myself. 18 Q: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last 19 part. 20 A: Go for a ride through the -- the land 21 back there. 22 Q: Okay, okay. So, just so I'm clear, 23 you didn't know who all lived there, you knew -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- some of your -- and you saw that


1 there were people there from outside the Band? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did you know who they were? 4 A: Not always. 5 Q: Okay. Can you give us some idea of - 6 - of numbers? It -- it's hard for us to understand -- 7 A: Numbers? 8 Q: -- because we weren't there. 9 A: No, I couldn't give you any numbers. 10 Q: And I also wanted to ask you some 11 questions about Dudley George, because you had told Mr. 12 Orkin that you knew Dudley George all his life, and then 13 you went on to say that you didn't see him as often when 14 they moved into town? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. So, can you help us 17 understand, when was it that Dudley moved into town? Do 18 you remember that? 19 A: Dudley and them moved into town after 20 when his dad had gotten a house in town -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- then they all d into town. They 23 had a house out at Kettle Point and then they built the 24 house in Forest and that's when they moved into town and 25 I'd say Dudley probably was, and I could be wrong on


1 this, but I would think he was probably about twelve (12) 2 -- ten (10) or twelve (12) years old. 3 Am I wrong -- that's about the age it was. 4 Q: Okay. And after Dudley's dad and the 5 family moved into town, can you give us some idea, would 6 you have gone and -- would you have seen them regularly 7 or seen them from time to time or when the family got 8 together? 9 A: When I would see Dudley was when he 10 would be playing hockey. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Because him and Buck played hockey 13 together. 14 Q: Okay. So, there would be a season of 15 the year that you would see him? 16 A: Yes. Or when I come into town. He 17 was usually around, maybe up around the corner of the 18 main street up there, you know, where the TD is; main 19 street Forest, in that area. He'd be there. 20 Q: You'd see him outside. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Yeah. And you'd see him playing at 23 games? 24 A: Not -- 25 Q: Sorry --


1 A: At hockey games. 2 Q: Hockey games, I'm sorry. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So, you saw him, sort of in passing - 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: During that time. And then can you 9 help us understand did at some point in time Dudley leave 10 Forest and go to school or leave Forest at all for any 11 reason? 12 A: If he did, I'm not aware of it. 13 Q: Okay. So, you don't -- can you help 14 us understand that -- when Dudley, for example, was in 15 his twenties did he go to school? 16 A: I -- I would have assumed he went to 17 school but that's just an assumption. I didn't keep 18 track of Dudley and follow -- 19 Q: Right. 20 A: -- him all over. 21 Q: Sure. 22 A: Dudley was my cousin. I would see 23 him at town. I'd be glad to see him. He would -- when 24 he was growing up we'd -- he would drive with my husband 25 to a hockey game --


1 Q: Right. 2 A: And -- but other than that, I didn't 3 follow around behind Dudley or any of my other cousins to 4 find out. I -- when you mentioned about the base, I 5 think if people really look from 1993 until 1995 there 6 was no problems there and everybody is trying to make it 7 out like -- to me, I commend how -- I don't think I could 8 have stayed in an army base all that time myself. 9 Q: You know, Mrs. Bressette, when you 10 were talking about your relationship with Dudley it made 11 me think about my relationship with my family and I 12 certainly have lots of relatives and there's periods of 13 time in their lives and my life I'm fairly close to them 14 where I see them often. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And other times I don't see them very 17 often. 18 A: That's -- 19 Q: I may -- 20 A: -- the way it is. 21 Q: -- hear how they're doing or I may 22 get information from someone else or I may see them on 23 special occasions, but I -- I don't know very much about 24 what they're doing in their daily life -- 25 A: Yeah, that's --


1 Q: -- during periods of time. 2 A: -- that's -- 3 Q: Is that fair? 4 A: -- yes. 5 Q: Okay. And then I had some questions 6 to ask you about September the 6th, 1995. And you've 7 told us that you were at the camp maybe every two (2) or 8 three (3) weeks over the course of time? 9 A: Could be every two (2) or three (3) - 10 Q: Something like that -- 11 A: A lot of times there was -- like I 12 had truthfully have not been in there now and probably I 13 haven't been out there to visit anybody and I'd say right 14 now a good two (2) months. 15 Q: Sure, so there could be long periods 16 of time -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- that you wouldn't be there. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Even during the period '93,'94 and 21 '95. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Can you recall at all, or help 24 us understanding -- or do you remember whether in the 25 summer of '95 before people moved into the park whether


1 you were in at the base very often during that period of 2 time? 3 A: Not very often. 4 Q: No. Once or twice maybe? 5 A: Once or twice. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: It was usually -- sometimes not even 8 to visit with anybody, just go for a ride back there. 9 Q: Because you liked to be on the land, 10 yeah. 11 And you told us yesterday that there were 12 about twelve (12) people in the park when you were 13 there -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- on September the 6th? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: Can you help us understand who you 18 saw in the park or who you were sitting with in the park? 19 A: Who was in the park when I was there 20 that day, there was Dudley, Judas, or Roderick, Glenn 21 George, Carolyn George, and she had, I think it was a 22 grandchild with her, Pierre George, and he had a little 23 boy with him. I don't know whether Sherry George was 24 there the first -- first time I went, and there was Les 25 Jewels (phonetic) --


1 Q: Sorry, Les Jewel...? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And he's not someone I've 4 heard you speak about before. Who was Les Jewel? 5 A: He's a friend from Oneida. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I think that's where he's from. He 8 lives in the States. 9 Q: Okay. And was he someone that you 10 knew well, or someone you'd have had much contact with? 11 A: No, just -- no just knew him as -- 12 because I've been to a lot of other First Nations I knew 13 him. 14 Q: Right. So you knew his name. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did you know much else about him, 17 other than he was who he was and he might have been from 18 Oneida? 19 A: No, I knew him, his wife, and his 20 daughter. 21 Q: Okay. And you had told us yesterday 22 that you heard after the fact that people had moved into 23 the park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And so I take it you didn't know


1 about, or you hadn't heard before then -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- about any plans to do that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. And you told us when you went 6 to the park, that nobody stopped you from going in -- 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: -- when you went in the morning? And 9 you agree with me that it was easy to get into the Base, 10 and into the park? 11 A: Yes, there was just the one (1), just 12 of twenty-one (21) before you got the gate -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- there was policemen there, and 15 just asked me where I was going and I says, into the 16 park. 17 Q: Right. And I take it you'd also 18 agree with me that it's easy to move between the Base and 19 the park? If you're -- if you're in the Base, it's easy 20 to get into the park, there's nothing stopping you from - 21 A: Oh, yes. 22 Q: -- from moving there. You can drive 23 between the two (2) areas -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- without ever leaving the Base?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: You can walk back and forth? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I understand -- 5 A: I don't know about walking, that's a 6 long walk. 7 Q: And -- and I understand that there 8 are roads inside the Base and park that lead between the 9 two (2)? 10 A: Well, I drove from the gate right to 11 the park, so -- 12 Q: Sure. 13 A: -- there is a road there. 14 Q: Sure. Yes. And I -- I understood 15 from your -- what you said yesterday, that you were in 16 the park on two (2) occasions and you were there for 17 about four (4) or five (5) hours in total? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And do you agree with me that you 20 don't have any personal knowledge about what happened, 21 either before those four (4) or five (5) hours, or after 22 those four (4) or five (5) hours? 23 A: I only know about when I was there. 24 Q: Sure. And you had talked to us 25 yesterday, about once you got over your fear of the


1 helicopters and that, the way the area looked, that you 2 had a pleasant and, it sounded like, fairly quiet day -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- in the park? And you had talked 5 about seeing police outside of the park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Were there other people outside of 8 the park, that you saw? 9 A: No I did not see anybody other than 10 there was a boat out on the Lake. 11 Q: Okay. Did you see any reporters 12 outside the park? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. And I take it when you 15 returned to the camp after 1:00 o'clock that night, that 16 the atmosphere was very different? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: There were road blocks? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: There were more police? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And, you talked about being stopped 23 once at the roadblock and asked why you were there -- he 24 first time that you went to the Camp, you were stopped? 25 A: When I first went in that morning --


1 Q: Right, yes. 2 A: -- you talked? Yes, there was a 3 roadblock there. 4 Q: Right. And I -- I take it it was 5 clear that there was a roadblock on the road? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You could see it, and it was clear 8 that you were expected to stop? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you did stop? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Right. And as I understand your 13 evidence, after that initial time, you weren't stopped 14 again by the police? 15 A: When I went -- I went in and I 16 visited, when I come back out and when I come with -- 17 with my husband and the kids in the van, we were stopped 18 and we just -- he said it -- same thing and we said we 19 are going into the park. 20 Q: Right. And you were allowed to carry 21 on? Mr. Millar just suggested to me that he -- he put it 22 nicely saying you might have misunderstood my question. 23 But it's more likely he was saying my question wasn't 24 clear to you about the question I'd asked you about being 25 stopped at the roadblock.


1 I -- I just wanted to walk through your 2 experiences during the night when you were coming back -- 3 A: You're talking about the night? 4 Q: Yeah, yeah. 5 A: Okay. Oh, I'm talking about the day. 6 Q: And that's what Mr. Millar suggested. 7 So, I think I -- I'm going to go back in just to make 8 sure that I'm clear about that. 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: The first time when you came back at 11 night, you had talked about being stopped on the road? 12 A: At Ravenswood. 13 Q: That's right. And you had said you 14 were there -- you had given Carson's name and a number; 15 is that right? 16 A: I just said Carson -- 17 Q: Carson. 18 A: -- let -- let us to go to Stony 19 Point. 20 Q: And you went through after that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yeah. And then as I understand your 23 evidence, you were back and forth four (4) times that 24 night? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And I take it that once the police 2 knew who you were or were familiar with your car -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- because you were telling us 5 yesterday that it had a pretty distinctive sound, that 6 you went back and forth pretty much unimpeded? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yeah. And I then want to ask you 9 some questions about something else you talked about 10 yesterday. That black binder that you have in front of 11 you, at Tab 9 there's the Memorandum of Understanding and 12 that was made Exhibit P-47 yesterday. 13 And I just wanted to get a little more 14 information about your role as a coordinator and what you 15 did during the period of time that you were coordinating? 16 A: Coordinating? I wasn't coord -- 17 Q: Sorry, sorry. Rep is a better way to 18 say it; representing? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And I wasn't quite clear from 21 what you had said yesterday, how you ended up in that 22 position? 23 A: I really don't know how I ended up in 24 it myself. Probably, I was the only one that wasn't 25 working full time. And they wanted someone there and it


1 ended up with myself and Martin -- Marvin Conner were the 2 ones that -- and that's all we did was just -- we didn't 3 do nothing all day, just watch what they were doing. 4 Q: Okay. And it -- it looks like from 5 the Memorandum of Understanding that the first time that 6 the SIU or the OPP were in the park were -- was September 7 18th; is that right? 8 A: They were there for three (3) days. 9 Q: Right. And had you yourself been in 10 the park or in the camp between September 6th and 11 September 18th? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you tell us 14 when you were there? 15 A: After Dudley was shot? 16 Q: Yeah 17 A: When I was there? 18 Q: Yeah. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps My -- hate to 20 interrupt My Friend, but My Friend could ask: She has a 21 double-barrelled question, in the camp in the park; 22 perhaps she could divide it up between camp and park. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: I'll -- I'll be more 24 specific, thank you. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: Okay. Between September 6th and 3 September 18th, were you at the camp? 4 A: The Base. 5 Q: The Base. I'll use that language. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Can you help us understand 8 when you were there? 9 A: I was there quite often. Sometimes - 10 - most of the times all day as well as all the other 11 people from -- who was involved and trying to help with 12 the burial and help do the things that we had to do. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And then that was -- after that would 15 be just to go for a ride to kind of get through this. 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: But it was all the things that had to 18 be done for Dudley's burial. 19 Q: Okay. And were there more people in 20 the base when you were there after September 6th than 21 there had been before September 6th? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Or were there -- yes. 24 A: Yes. For that period after -- 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: -- Dudley was shot -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I think at a given time you could say 4 we had probably two hundred (200) people come because it 5 was his funeral and they came to support the people that 6 were in there. 7 Q: Okay. And did you go to the park at 8 any point in time between September 6th and September 9 18th? 10 A: I really can't whether I did or not 11 because I did not feel like going down to the park. 12 Q: Okay. And to your knowledge in what 13 it looks like from the memorandum of understanding, is 14 that there was an agreement that the police and the -- 15 and/or the SIU would not go into either the park or the 16 camp until there had been an agreement reached with the 17 band about the circumstances under which they could go 18 in; is that right? 19 A: It was more of an agreement until we 20 -- they -- because I -- we had another -- after they were 21 done then there, then it was the next step was to look at 22 the bus and a car. 23 Q: Sorry, "after we were done there"; 24 what does that -- 25 A: After they were done with what they


1 were doing at -- where Dudley was shot at the park. 2 Q: Okay. And when you say, "they"; who 3 -- who are you talking about? 4 A: The SIU. 5 Q: The SIU. Is it -- are you saying, 6 then, that the SIU was in the park prior to September 7 18th? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Do you know? 10 A: They -- it was the three (3) days 11 they were down there -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- and I can't even remember the 14 man's name who was in charge of it. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- but when they were looking round 17 there, because I asked them what they were looking for, 18 because I didn't see how they could find anything there 19 for the simple fact there had been hundreds of people 20 that had been down in there after Dudley died. 21 Q: Well, I was going to ask you about 22 that, because my understanding has -- was that no one 23 from the OPP or SIU had been in the park or in the base-- 24 A: No, I -- 25 Q: -- in that period and I take it from


1 what you're saying, many other people were. 2 A: That's -- that should have been all 3 roped off, but it wasn't. It was just left. 4 Q: And many people were in there? 5 A: There were a lot of people that went 6 down there after Dudley died. I -- the -- that's what 7 always bothered me -- 8 Q: Right. 9 A: -- was when -- when there was 10 something happened away from the reserve, you'd see it 11 all -- the roped off area, right? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: But with -- when Dudley died, there 14 was nothing down there. Nobody blocked because how else 15 would you be able to find out if you -- you weren't even 16 the man -- I can't -- I didn't know his name, he was 17 telling me he didn't know what they were going to really 18 -- what the result was going to be, because there was so 19 much people that had been in that area -- 20 Q: That's right. 21 A: After the shooting. 22 Q: And so much time had passed. 23 A: That's what he had told me. 24 Q: That's right. In fact, I think it's 25 -- twelve (12) days had passed between September 6th


1 and -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: -- September 18th when the 4 investigation first started. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yeah. Now, you have told us that 7 during those three (3) days which I understand are 8 September 18th and 19th and 20th, when the SIU was doing 9 its investigation, I think you have told us that you and 10 Marvin Connor were there. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Were you there -- and -- and I 13 understand from looking at the records that the SIU 14 person there was a man named Stan Thompson. 15 Does that name ring a bell with you? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Do you recall who was there 18 for the SIU? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No, okay. Can you help us understand 21 what you did over the course of the three (3) days? I 22 take it you were there with the SIU people every day. 23 A: Did nothing. 24 Q: Okay. Were -- did you go along 25 beside the SIU investigator or the -- or the people that


1 were in that group as they did their work? 2 A: I with -- the one man that seemed to 3 be the head of the investigation, I would ask him what 4 they were doing. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: And he would, like, when I had seen 7 all of them -- an example would be, when they're all 8 crawling along the ground close together -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- I didn't know what they were 11 doing. 12 Q: Sure. 13 A: So, no, I did nothing, that was -- 14 just watched them. 15 Q: Sure. 16 A: I didn't -- never done this before 17 and I didn't know what I was supposed to do, so I -- we 18 just watched them. 19 Q: Okay. Did you stay with them the 20 entire time that they were in the park? 21 A: We would stay there from morning when 22 they had a set time for us to be there, and we'd leave at 23 the set time to leave. 24 Q: Okay. Okay. Now, I anticipate that 25 we'll hear evidence from Mr. Stan Thompson, who was one


1 of the SIU investigators, who was there on the 18th and 2 19th and the 20th. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: And, after he did his investigation, 5 he wrote a follow-up report. I'm not going to ask you 6 about that because it's his report -- 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: -- and when he comes back to talk 9 about it, that'll -- that'll be his evidence to give; 10 it's certainly not yours. But, he talked about one thing 11 that happened during the course of the days he was at the 12 park -- 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: -- and -- and I just wanted to ask 15 you whether or not you shared that experience with him. 16 He talks in his SIU follow-up report, of 17 being in the park on the 20th -- sorry, I just want to 18 make sure I've got the right page here -- somehow we have 19 copies of a page that isn't the page I think I want. Can 20 I just ask you to wait for one (1) minute? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: I'll just make sure I've got the 23 right document. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: While we have a 2 moment, Mr. Commissioner, I assume that Mrs. Bressette 3 will be shown a copy of this document? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 5 that's what she's doing. I think that's what she's 6 doing. She's getting copies, I think, for whoever 7 doesn't -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The document for 9 Counsel is 1001847, Volume I. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: And Mrs. Bressette, what I've asked 15 to be passed up to you, and I put in the front page of 16 the document so we can see where it come from, and then 17 I've just put in one (1) page of the document, and it 18 says, page 32 of 37, at the top of it. And you'll see 19 partway down that page, at fourteen fifty (1450) hours, 20 what's reported is that: 21 "At approximately fourteen fifty (1450) 22 hours, while taking clinometer of large 23 poplar tree, I heard a loud bang, which 24 appeared to come from the inside of the 25 Ipperwash Park, east of our location,


1 on the north side of East Parkway 2 Drive. The sound sounded very similar 3 to that of a shotgun blast." 4 Do you recall hearing that when you were 5 in the park on the 20th? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. Mrs. Bressette, I don't have 8 anymore questions for you. Thank you very much. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much. I think Counsel for former Premier Harris, 11 Mr. Hourigan...? 12 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: Mr. Commissioner, 13 my questions have been covered by other counsel, I have 14 no questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 16 we're up to Mr. Henderson now. I don't think there are 17 any other counsel except for Mr. Henderson. 18 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Thank you, 19 Commissioner. 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: 22 Q: Good morning, Mrs. Bressette. 23 A: Good morning. 24 Q: I only have a few questions relating 25 more to the history of the First Nation during -- during


1 your lifetime. Mr. Ross directed you yesterday in 2 relation to the August 1st, 1995 meeting. There was 3 principles of negotiation in relation to the Stony Point 4 claim; that was a document? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the document indicated that there 7 would be compensation and special recognition for 8 locatees? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you indicated to Mr. Ross that, 11 if I recall your evidence correctly, a locatee is a 12 person who holds or held a location ticket? 13 A: Yes, or their -- yeah that's the 14 Locatee but they have their heirs too. 15 Q: I'm sorry? 16 A: That with the locatee -- there's a 17 location ticket and that was in the name of the person 18 who held that piece of property. 19 Q: Yes. And -- and you indicated that 20 in fact you have the lo -- copies of the location tickets 21 for your family members? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, just in terms of the people who 24 held location tickets at Stony Point, you will recall Mr. 25 Ross also directed you to a -- a letter that had been


1 sent to Mrs. Beattie Greenbird? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that was in response to a letter 4 that she had sent to the Minister of Indian Affairs or 5 the Prime Minister, I forget which. I believe it was the 6 Minister of Indian Affairs? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: The -- the letter that she sent 9 described two (2) lots at Stony Point which her family 10 used for fence posts, timber, firewood and I think saw 11 logs of that Mr. and Mrs. Greenbird and their two (2) 12 sons used obviously for economic purposes at Stony Point; 13 do you recall that letter? 14 A: I re -- the one that he had up -- 15 Q: The letter that Mrs. Greenbird sent 16 that the letter he had up was a response -- 17 A: Yes, I've seen it in our records. 18 Q: Now, Mr. Ross also took you through 19 the list of families that were moved in 1942 from -- from 20 the Stony Point Reserve? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that list did not include Mr. and 23 Mrs. Greenbird? 24 A: No, because they lived at Kettle 25 Point.


1 Q: They lived at Kettle Point. And to 2 your knowledge were there many people in -- in that 3 category who lived at Kettle Point but had location 4 tickets for farm or bush lots at Stony Point. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And for example, Mr. Cliff George -- 7 Mr. Clifford George when he was testifying referred a Mr. 8 Dan Bressette who lived at Kettle Point but had a farm 9 that couldn't have been too far from yours at -- at Stony 10 Point? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I -- we've done a very 13 unscientific study of the list of Chief and Council. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: What Mr. Millar has handed to you, I 18 believe, is an accurate list of the Chief and Councillors 19 of the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point as elected in 20 June of this year. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And down the left side of the list 23 there are five (5) Councillors named there, including 24 yourself; Mr. Maynard -- Sam George, who was immediately 25 to my right here. Mr. Ron George, Pete Cloud and Liz


1 Stevens (phonetic). 2 Are those all the people, like yourself, 3 who are descended from people who held location tickets 4 and lived at Stony Point in 1942? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And at least two (2) of those people 7 are your first cousins? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now, on the right side, there are 10 four (4) names there; Councilors Bob Bressette, Dave 11 Henry, Brian Menaige (phonetic) and Rudy Bressette. 12 To your knowledge, are they people who 13 were descended -- directly descended from people who 14 lived at Kettle Point but had location tickets at Stony 15 Point in 1942? 16 A: I would say yes to that, but I'm just 17 -- just give me a minute to think. 18 Q: Of course. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I'm trying to think back to who their 23 -- the family they come. And, yes, I -- I would say yes 24 to all of them. Because they're all -- trying to 25 remember who had the location tickets and how they really


1 -- how these ones relate to them. Yes, I would say yes. 2 Q: Okay. And the only one we haven't 3 meet -- mentioned is chief Tom Bressette. His 4 grandfather was also chief Tom Bressette, if -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And his grandmother, his paternal 7 grandmother, was she from Kettle Point or Stony Point? 8 A: Patsy, she was originally from Stony 9 Point; that was Gifford's -- Gifford's (phonetic) 10 daughter. 11 Q: Okay. Thank you. And to your 12 knowledge, did the grandfather, chief Bressette, have a 13 location ticket at Stony Point? 14 A: I don't want to say yes or no because 15 I'd be a liar. I really don't -- that's slipped my mind 16 on whether Tom -- senior Tom had a location ticket. I'm 17 trying to recall. 18 Q: It's -- it's fine if you don't 19 recall. 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: That's fine. I'm sure chief 22 Bressette will be giving -- 23 A: Yes, he'll -- 24 Q: -- evidence himself in -- 25 A: He will know that.


1 Q: That would -- that would be the 2 current chief. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: The -- I mean, just on the basis of - 5 - if we take this as -- it's almost a double entendre, 6 but a representative sample, this would suggest that 7 probably half the people of the Chippewas of Kettle and 8 Stony Point are descended from people who had location 9 tickets at Stony Point. 10 A: I would say it seems that way. 11 Q: Or -- and-- and I'm talking about 12 location tickets in 1942. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And an even greater number are 15 descended from people who previously lived at Stony Point 16 because people married between the two (2) reserves, so 17 there are descendants that go back to Stony Point long 18 before -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- 1942. Would you say that's a 21 majority -- a large majority or almost everyone? 22 A: Well, it's hard to find somebody that 23 is not related and I assume there must be some but it 24 would be very few that's not related to someone that came 25 and moved from Stony Point and had a location ticket


1 there or had location ticket there. 2 Q: Thank you, Mrs. Bressette. Those are 3 my questions. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much. Thank you very much Mr. Henderson. 6 All that's left, Mr. Millar, is for you to 7 re-examine. Would you like to do that right now and then 8 have a break? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, I just have one 10 (1) question -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But, I wanted to 13 indicate one (1) -- Mr. Orkin and I are still discussing 14 the extract that he had asked to be marked. And so we're 15 simply going to reserve that with your permission, sir, 16 until we've had the opportunity to have further 17 discussions. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 20 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Mrs. Bressette, I only have one 22 question. My Friend Ms. Tuck-Jackson asked you about the 23 minutes of August 1st, of the meeting? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And she took you to a reference of


1 Mrs. Darlene Jean Bressette? 2 A: Donna Jean. 3 Q: Donna Jean, excuse me, and Mrs. Donna 4 Jean Bressette spoke about two (2) deaths; that's on page 5 18 of Exhibit 43; do you see that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And were you aware of an automobile 8 accident that took place on July 31st -- the evening of 9 July 31st or the morning of August 1st at the Army camp? 10 A: No, I wasn't. 11 Q: Okay, thank you. Those are my 12 questions. 13 Mr. Commissioner, on behalf of the 14 Commission, I would like to thank Mrs. Bressette for 15 coming to give evidence and spending the time that she 16 has with us. She's been here quite -- quite a long time. 17 Thank you very much, Mrs. Bressette. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 Just before we adjourn it may be necessary for -- for 20 Mrs. Bressette to be recalled -- it may be necessary for 21 her to be recalled and you would be available -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if you 24 were -- needed to be recalled? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And before I -- you


1 may have some questions -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I just 3 have something I wanted to say. But -- I -- I want to 4 thank you also on behalf of the Commission for your 5 evidence and for being here and I just wanted to say to 6 you that -- that the mandate of this Inquiry is not only 7 find out what happened that night with respect to Dudley, 8 but to also to make recommendations regarding preventing 9 this sort of thing from happening in the future. 10 And you spoke to that in your evidence and 11 a number of times you talked about healing. That's a 12 very important part of what I believe this Inquiry can 13 and should strive to achieve to try to help the healing 14 process. 15 In Part 2, the policy part of this Inquiry 16 which is going simultaneously with this evidentiary part, 17 we're trying to develop recommendations to make to the 18 Government to try to prevent this kind of thing from 19 happening again. 20 The Band is participating in that exercise 21 and in view of some of the things that you said in your 22 evidence regarding you and any help that you can give to 23 the Band and the -- the preparation of its submission to 24 us in terms helping us to make recommendations for the 25 future would be very much appreciated. Thank you very


1 much. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 4 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 5 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, it would 7 be an opportune time for the morning break and we will 8 then call our next witness. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you again, Mrs. 12 Bressette. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 14 for fifteen (15) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 10:29 a.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 11:04 a.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 24 morning. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, our next


1 witness is Marcia Simon. If Mrs. Simon could be sworn, 2 please. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Mrs. Simon, do you prefer 4 to swear on the Bible, affirm or use an alternate oath? 5 MRS. MARCIA SIMON: Eagle feather. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Please state your name in 7 full, please. 8 MRS. MARCIA SIMON: My name is Marcia 9 Flora George Simon. 10 11 MARCIA FLORA GEORGE SIMON, Sworn 12 13 MR. DONALD WORME: I should say, Mr. 14 Commissioner, that there has been a number of exhibits 15 that have been distributed to Counsel electronically, 16 earlier. 17 As well, I will be referring to only two 18 (2) Inquiry Documents and I will refer to those in due 19 course, otherwise the other exhibits that we propose to 20 put forward, I believe nine (9) in total, have been 21 supplied to Counsel. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 23 a copy for me, Mr. Worme? 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you


1 very much. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: Here, this is -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. 5 6 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: Mrs. Simon, this may perhaps be 8 somewhat unkind, but I wonder if you could tell us your 9 date of birth? 10 A: That's okay. November the 26th, 11 1946, part of the post-war baby boom. 12 Q: Okay. And that makes you how young 13 today? 14 A: I always have to figure out how old 15 my youngest son is, and I'm thirty (30) years older than 16 him. 17 Q: Your youngest son is Kevin Simon? 18 A: Hmm hmm. So ,if he's twenty-eight 19 (28), then that means I'm fifty-eight (58). 20 Q: All right. You have another son as 21 well, Marlin Simon? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And we'll be hearing from them in 24 this Inquiry in due course; you're aware of that? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Yes. You can tell us, perhaps, who 2 your -- who your parents are? 3 A: My parents are Daniel Ray George 4 Senior and Christina Melba George. 5 Q: And we've heard something about your 6 parents already, during the course of this Inquiry. Your 7 -- your father was the first to be buried at Stony Point 8 Cemetery, or grave site in modern times? 9 A: Yes, in 1990. 10 Q: Your mother, Melba George, has 11 deceased recently, we understand? 12 A: Yes, in 2000. 13 Q: I see. I wonder if you could tell us 14 a bit about your mother's parents, who they might be, and 15 what -- what you might know about them and can share with 16 us? 17 A: My mother's father was Edgar Shownoo 18 (phonetic) and her mother was Phyllis George, but she was 19 raised by her grandparents, Morris and Flora George, so 20 they were like her parents, she called them. 21 Q: Did -- did Phyllis George have -- 22 were her parents alive? 23 A: Pardon me? 24 Q: Were -- was Phyllis George's parents 25 alive? Is that why, or not alive, is that why she was


1 raised by her grandparents? 2 A: No, Phyllis George's parents are 3 Morris and Flora. 4 Q: Okay. But she was raised by her 5 grandparents -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- is that what I understood? 8 A: Yes. Yes. 9 Q: All right. Not an uncommon thing 10 among many aboriginal people? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Very common. 14 Q: Your father's parents...? 15 A: My father's parents were Robert 16 George Senior and Laura Ann Nancy Dunbar George. 17 Q: Okay. Do you know where they would 18 have resided; either your maternal grandparents or 19 paternal grandparents? 20 A: My maternal grandparents, Grandpa 21 Morris and Flora, were in Kettle Point, and Robert and 22 Laura in Stony Point, up until 1942, and their house was 23 moved to Kettle Point then. 24 Q: All right. You have a number of 25 siblings. I wonder if, for the record, you could tell us


1 who those are? 2 A: My older brother is Graham Fletcher 3 George, my older sister is Valois Lauren Cheyne. 4 Q: I'm sorry, her name again? 5 A: Cheyne, "C-H-E-Y-N-E". 6 Q: And her first name? 7 A: Valois, "V-A-L-O-I-S". 8 Q: I see. 9 A: Then there's me, I'm the third, and 10 then Cheryl Face Stonefish and Catherine May (phonetic), 11 she's become Mandel Kagan (phonetic), Daniel Ray George 12 Junior, Warren Anthony George Senior. 13 Now -- and we had two (2) in there that 14 died. There was a Kevin and Sally. And then the 15 youngest brother, Mark Alan George and our youngest 16 sister, Christina Laura Wakefield. 17 Q: Okay. What about Glenn George? 18 A: Oh my goodness. That's my baby 19 brother. He's in between there -- 20 Q: Oh I'm sure you didn't forget him on 21 purpose. 22 A: He's in between Mark and Chris. 23 Q: All right. And you've told us -- 24 A: Glenn Morris George, so he's named 25 after Grandpa Morris.


1 Q: All right. Just one (1) thing that 2 you'd mentioned. Catherine Mandocka (phonetic). You 3 said she's gone back to that. Is that the way you put 4 it? 5 A: Yes. Yeah. That would have been our 6 family name up until we were Christianized in the 1830's 7 and we took on the name George. 8 Q: I see, okay. You've told us about 9 your two (2) sons, Marlin -- 10 A: Marlin Douglas Simon -- 11 Q: You mentioned Kevin, I think. 12 A: Hmm. Kevin Charles Daniel Simon. 13 Q: All right. And Marlin is your older 14 son? 15 A: Yes. He's Marlin junior. 16 Q: All right. I gather that they would 17 have grown up with you. You obviously brought them up as 18 their mother? 19 A: For the most part, yeah. Especially 20 the older one stayed for portions of time with his grand 21 -- grandparents. So he was very close with them. That - 22 - that's Daniel and Melba. 23 Q: Right. Okay. And so he would have 24 resided in Kettle Point with -- 25 A: At times, yeah.


1 Q: And otherwise he would be with you 2 and you -- you would have lived where? 3 A: Well, we were sort of -- you know, 4 like a gypsy life. It seems we've lived in a variety of 5 places. In London and in Oneida for -- I was living in 6 Oneida when my older son was born with my in-laws there. 7 Very nice people, Hazel and Dennis and Cornelius and 8 she's a sister to the well-known Antonnu (phonetic) 9 family. They're North American evangelists. 10 We lived in Grand Bend for a period of 11 time. We lived in Cornwall for three (3) years when I 12 was teaching there. It's -- we also lived in the 13 Chippewas of the Thems which is our -- our home reserve 14 with the Simons and so there's -- there's a variety of 15 places but my home was always Kettle Point at -- at my 16 parents. It was -- that was my base and since -- since 17 '95 I've had the alternate residence in the Roman 18 Catholic chapel in the Base, Building 46. 19 Q: Okay, and we'll come to that in a 20 moment. You mentioned that you'd lived in London for a 21 time. I understand that you went to the University of 22 Western Ontario there. 23 A: I did. 24 Q: You obtained a certain credentials. 25 A: I --


1 Q: Could you tell us about that? 2 A: I received my Bachelor of Arts in 3 Social Sciences there in 1982 and competition was very -- 4 very keen to get into the Faculty of Education and I was 5 accepted in the second round and I graduated from the 6 Faculty of Ed. there in 1983. 7 Q: I would imagine that this would have 8 been a -- a difficult time. That is, going to -- going 9 to school and such. Can you tell us anything about that? 10 A: I was the sole support of my -- my 11 two (2) sons and I - I'm very proud of what I was able to 12 achieve as a single Anishnaabek way at that time and it 13 was only through a plethora of people helping me that -- 14 and supporting me that I was able to do that. 15 I remember my mother-in-law, and she's 16 such a sweet person, she would look after my sons when I 17 needed to do papers and things. She would lovingly look 18 after them and -- and periodically bring me a coffee up - 19 - up into the upstairs room where I was working. 20 And my father, if he saw my tires were 21 getting too bare on the car, he'd take better ones off 22 the old junk cars around his house and replace them, so I 23 could keep going. 24 Q: You would have been travelling from 25 Oneida to London; is that right?


1 A: And eventually from Kettle Point to - 2 - to London. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And, he was still alive and well 5 enough to attend my graduation ceremonies in 1982 and he 6 knew of the struggle with the fights I had to obtain 7 funding, -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- and he said, we showed them how to 10 get educated. When I graduated he was so proud, with all 11 that help that -- that was partly their accomplishment as 12 well. 13 Q: That's very nice to acknowledge them. 14 A: Mm-hmm. 15 Q: After obtaining your Bachelor of 16 Education, you then went on to -- to use that degree in 17 teaching. 18 A: The first full-time position that I 19 accepted was at the Equasesni (phonetic) Mohawk School, 20 and I lived in Cornwall for -- I was employed there for 21 three (3) years, and I moved back to this area, with the 22 intent of -- I -- I wanted to study about -- I was 23 thinking about working on a Master's in Education too. 24 I was appalled at the number of students 25 that were failed along the way before I got them in


1 Grade 7 and I felt part of the reason for that was 2 because they were immersed in their language and they 3 were being given standardized testing for kids that were 4 studying English, so, I just felt it was grossly unfair 5 and it wasn't well thought through. And -- 6 Q: Just let me interrupt you, if I may 7 just for a moment, Mrs. Simon. You were concerned about 8 the number of students that were dropping out of school 9 or failing school...? 10 A: That had failed a grade before I got 11 them in Grade 7. 12 Q: I see. And I gather you're talking 13 about Anishnaabe or -- or First Nation students? 14 A: Onkahomlay (phonetic) students, 15 Mohawk students at that time. 16 Q: All right. Yes, go ahead. 17 A: I really had financial difficulties 18 in London, I had not been made aware that all of their 19 courses were offered in the evening, so, I didn't have 20 any expenses -- any money for child care expenses and so 21 they would be in school all day when I would have been 22 able to do my studies; that was the original plan but it 23 turned out the courses were offered in the evenings. 24 There was a -- a fluency program that came 25 up that winter to train individuals in fluency in Ojibwe,


1 and I was one of the ones accepted into that program, so 2 I was able to study the structure of our language, and 3 unfortunately, this, as with many of our -- our courses 4 for our language are not accredited courses, so even 5 though I've studied all kinds of things, I don't have any 6 credentials to show that or improve your -- your ratings 7 in the teaching profession. 8 Q: You are a fluent speaker of -- of 9 Ojibwe or Anishnaabe? 10 A: I don't ever claim to be fully 11 fluent. I -- I know the language, I understand the 12 structure of it, but I usually don't have anyone to speak 13 to, like my -- I'd need to be immersed in with people 14 that speak it in order -- so I -- I study -- I teach 15 basic expressions and the -- the new writing system and, 16 I guess my approach is more like a classical approach as 17 they were two (2) classical languages, rather than 18 immersions programs in second language -- 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- methodology. 21 Q: And in that capacity, you became 22 involved in preparing certain curriculum that's used in 23 the Province of Ontario...? 24 A: Yes, I am one of the writers of the 25 current Native Languages Curriculum for the Province of


1 Ontario. There are three documents that are in use in 2 the Provincial Schools at this time. 3 Q: All right. And although, I take it 4 you're -- you're somewhat modest about your ability in -- 5 in the Anishnaabe language; you are in fact the Language 6 Program Specialist...? 7 A: I work in that capacity, yes. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: But it doesn't show on my -- on my 10 record, because they don't have any programs to -- 11 Q: To acknowledge those credentials -- 12 A: Yeah, in our language. There -- 13 there isn't anything. 14 Q: Just if I may step ahead of it, I 15 understand that you were involved in teaching the -- the 16 young people and in fact even some adults the Anishnaabe 17 language at Stony Point, the school that was established 18 at Stony Point? 19 A: Not in the school that was 20 established there. I would prepare things and give them 21 to Caroline Hile (phonetic) the nun that was working 22 there and -- 23 Q: Right. 24 A: -- because I was working elsewhere 25 and I also gave my mother any materials that I'd created


1 and she would use them as well for the classes that she - 2 - I would -- I would sit in with her classes and really 3 enjoyed those. 4 Q: And she was a teacher of the language 5 then? 6 A: Yes. And I -- and -- she's the Elder 7 I respected that and I continued to learn from her and -- 8 if she was here I would be still learning from her. 9 Q: And presently you -- you are an 10 elementary school teacher as I understand? 11 A: Yes. I'm at the Walpole Island 12 Elementary School. I'm suppose to be there -- got 13 subpoena here. 14 Q: Right. And you've been waiting for a 15 number of days to get here and I apologize for that. 16 A: I've been sitting here all week. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: Under the subpoena. 19 Q: We can move then to -- to the 20 location of -- well let me -- before we get there, you 21 are a Band Member, registered Band Member I gather? 22 A: Yes. My membership is currently in 23 with combined Bands of Kettle Point and Stony Point. 24 Q: And do you consider yourself a member 25 of -- of any particular community?


1 A: I look upon myself as a Stony 2 Pointer. We follow our father's way, that is where he 3 was from. 4 Q: Now we've all had the -- the 5 occasion, privilege I would suggest, of -- of taking a 6 view at the Stony Point area, Stony Point lands, the -- 7 what was formerly the Army base. 8 I noted a sign there that said Aazhoodena 9 and we've heard that a couple of times and you'll forgive 10 me if I mispronounce that. I wonder if you can tell us 11 something about that? What does that mean? 12 A: The Aazhoodena. There's I understand 13 several meanings of that. In our language Oodena, Oode 14 is the heart and the Oodena is the -- is a place of the - 15 - where the people -- the heart of the people where they 16 -- they come together to live or a town I guess, a 17 village, a town. 18 And Aazho could mean the next -- the next 19 place or my father considered it to mean that they were 20 side by side. The -- the two (2) communities of Kettle 21 Point and Stony Point. 22 And -- and that was the -- one of the 23 meanings. Another Elder explained that it could also 24 mean like the other side of town. So there's -- 25 Q: And do you know where that name came


1 from? 2 A: From our language. 3 Q: Okay. Is it -- is it a recent thing 4 I guess is what I'm getting at or has that been a 5 historical name for the -- 6 A: As -- as far back as I know it's 7 something from -- I don't know when it originated, just 8 always been there. 9 Q: You were obviously born after the 10 appropriation of the -- of those lands? 11 A: I was actually born in Kettle Point. 12 That's where my birth certificate shows my place of birth 13 as right in Kettle Point. And I think I was the last one 14 in the family, after that they started being born in the 15 hospitals. 16 Q: And I understand that you would have 17 occasion to visit the -- the Stony Point lands as a 18 child? 19 A: Yes. I've just always got memories 20 of being taken there and it was always a treat. 21 Q: Who -- who would take you there? 22 A: It would be our parents. Load all 23 the kids in the car and away we'd go. In the winter time 24 we -- we would go out along Highway 21 and what we knew 25 of as the Stone Crusher.


1 There's a little lake along the highway 2 there that we would go and skate on. And we -- we would 3 just drive along and pull in the gate there and go and 4 skate. There was no question about it being locked to 5 us. We -- we just went when it was good ice. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And there were other times when we 8 would go down what's now called the Army Camp Road. And 9 I don't like that name, they should have had an Ojibwe 10 name. That -- as far as the turn off towards the burial 11 grounds, there our cemetery. And right near there, 12 there's also the dump and we would go and rummage through 13 there for any -- any treasures we could find and take 14 them home. 15 And pop bottles, we would wash them up and 16 sell them. That's when they used to have bottles that 17 you could sell for -- and we would go and visit the 18 burial grounds. And I see my sister sitting over there 19 and we always have a story that we joke about and at one 20 point there was a fence up and it was clearly labelled 21 out of bounds and she was just learning to read and she 22 said it was out of bones. 23 We -- we thought she was a pretty good 24 reader, learning to read with but ... 25 Q: Now -- now you initially there was no


1 question of being able to go there, that you would go and 2 skate at this particular pond? 3 A: Hmm mmm. And the same with going in 4 there, provided they weren't shooting. We could come and 5 go and then right from the -- the burial ground there we 6 could go further on in and -- and go and visit the inland 7 lakes which are really beautiful. Hopefully you've seen 8 them there. 9 Q: And -- and, in fact, we have. 10 A: Yeah. So, it's like food for your 11 soul. You go in there and -- and you can become restored 12 but it's -- 13 Q: You would -- you would go there with 14 your father and your siblings? 15 A: Yes, hmm hmm. 16 Q: Now you've told us about the winter. 17 I gather that would occur at other seasons as well? 18 A: Yeah. There was -- all year round 19 there was -- there was things we would do. 20 Q: In -- in visiting the cemetery, I 21 take it you -- you know where that is and you perhaps 22 even would have relatives buried there and -- 23 A: Yeah, my father's buried there. 24 Q: -- before your father. Before your 25 father and your mother.


1 A: Before my father, yes. We always 2 noted there was the one grave marker that -- for Marlene 3 Nola (phonetic) and we knew that was our father's sister, 4 our auntie. 5 And we also knew there was a brother 6 called Fletcher who my older brother's named after, but 7 we don't know where his grave is. 8 And we -- I understand the reason there 9 was a marker for Marlene was because she had been 10 strangled in the hospital and her gram would talk about 11 what our grandfather had to go and do things along with 12 one of his friends from the town of Forest here to deal 13 with what had happened to the baby in the hospital. 14 And not too much was ever said other than 15 the nurse had lost her licence to practice and that was 16 how she came to have the gravestone that was purchased 17 there. 18 Q: Is that stone still -- stands? 19 A: It's still there. And I have a niece 20 called Nola as well. 21 Q: You -- you indicated your parents 22 would take you to the Stony Point lands. Any other 23 particular reasons beside recreation? 24 A: I -- I know we can get medicines and 25 things there when we want. I just don't recall them


1 collecting that type of thing, it was mainly going to the 2 dump that I remember, looking for the treasures in there. 3 And my father was a skilled craftsman as was my 4 grandfather and a number of them, they -- they made 5 beautiful furniture and I remember them having to get 6 cedar to -- to make the furniture. 7 And we'd have those shavings around on the 8 ground from the -- from the cedar trees and play with 9 them as -- as children. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And -- and wood and things like that. 12 We'd just ... 13 Q: And when you would -- when you would 14 attend there, was there any particular route or access 15 point that you would use in order to get onto the lands 16 that you can recall today, for us? 17 A: Just those two (2) that I've 18 mentioned. Those were the main ones that we -- we went 19 in off of Highway 21. And then off of what's now called 20 Army Camp Road, that you were able to go, turn directly 21 east to go to the burial grounds. You didn't have to go 22 through the main gate into the barracks there now. The 23 road just went directly east. 24 Q: Right. And so as I understand, is 25 that a road that -- that is known as Mathison Drive?


1 A: No. No, that's not quite halfway 2 between Mathison Drive and the barracks. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: So, it's only partway down there. 5 Q: And did that ability to access those 6 lands change at some point, that is to access essentially 7 at will, from what I understand? 8 A: Hmm hmm. It seemed that happened in 9 the '60s, because I can still -- or the other place that 10 we could go was to the DND Beach, we called it then, and 11 we would go through, I guess Mathison -- Mathison Drive 12 there. That's the third one that we would use. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: I'm not used to using those -- those 15 names. 16 Q: And again, that changed at some 17 point, I understand? That is, your ability to access 18 these lands? 19 A: We eventually were fenced out and we 20 couldn't. 21 Q: And that was the -- the signs that 22 were then posted; "out of bones", I think, as your sister 23 might say? 24 A: In -- in later years, I don't even 25 recall that fence being there, I think it was allowed to


1 just deteriorate. 2 Q: All right. And in spite of the 3 fence, I understand that you still attended at those 4 lands? 5 A: Mainly the DND Beach and we would 6 continue to swim there in the summertime, and as 7 teenagers, we -- we loved to go for midnight swims. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. And -- 9 A: And they -- 10 Q: -- was there -- I'm sorry, go ahead. 11 A: And they had rafts out there in -- in 12 the water, for the use of the Cadets that -- that we 13 loved to use too. 14 Q: Was there any difficulty with any 15 Army personnel at that point? 16 A: They would come along and try to 17 evict us and I -- I was pretty yippy as a teenager, and I 18 would tell them that was our land. I'd inform them -- 19 and for them to go back to their supervisors and ask if 20 they paid us for the land yet, and when they did, we 21 would -- we would -- we're not going to leave until then. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And they -- they sort of wondered 24 about it and left it at that, and we just left when we 25 were finished swimming.


1 Q: You also, as I understand, had taken 2 on a number of jobs at the Army Camp eventually? 3 A: In the '60s I worked in all -- 4 actually all of the kitchens there. They had Trocadero 5 and the Savoy and the Ritz and then the two (2), the 6 Sergeant's Mess and Officer's Mess for -- and then for 7 two (2) years I -- I ran the switchboard in the message 8 centre. 9 They had an old PBX switchboard just like 10 you see on Laugh-in. It was still like from the war era. 11 They eventually modernized it, but in the '60s that was 12 still there being in use. 13 Q: When you say Laugh-in, that -- 14 A: Right. 15 Q: -- that would be Lilly Tomlin -- 16 A: Yeah -- 17 Q: -- that sort of thing? 18 A: -- that old switchboard that she -- 19 it was an exact replica of that one. 20 Q: I might be dating myself here. 21 These jobs that you had -- just up on the 22 -- up on the map, up on the screen beside you, so you 23 recognize that -- that diagram, first of all? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And if I suggest to you that at the


1 bottom corner of the square, what -- square is -- is 2 presumably as marked, the Ipperwash Military Reserve? 3 A: At the bottom of it? 4 Q: At -- at the bottom corner is the, 5 what's known as, the Army Camp, or the built-up area, the 6 barracks? 7 A: Yes. Hmm hmm. 8 Q: And that would be where you worked? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Just if -- if I could go back to an 11 earlier question I'd asked you, as to where you would 12 have accessed, you talked about a couple of main access 13 points; would you be able to help us out and show -- and 14 point out where those might be? 15 A: On -- on here? 16 Q: Yes, please. I did have a laser- 17 pointer, but I think it's -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No problem. 19 I'm wondering if somebody can help her with -- there's a 20 microphone on the table if you use it then we can record 21 it. Thank you very much. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: Where -- where the cursor is, is 25 Highway 21, that's the quarry?


1 A: And if this is the -- if this is the 2 body of water that would be what we called the Stone 3 Crusher and we would -- there would be a gate there and 4 we would just go in there and we would skate in there. 5 Q: All right. You talked -- I'm sorry, 6 go ahead. 7 A: And then I'm not sure what the roads 8 are in here. Is this the road? But where the burial 9 ground is -- I can't make out -- but somewhere along here 10 there was a road directly from Army Camp Road that we 11 were able to access directly to whether the dump was 12 here, which was right near our burial grounds. So we'd 13 have those -- those two (2) things. Is that -- is that 14 correct? 15 Q: Yes, that -- that helps very much, 16 thank you. And just for the record you had indicated the 17 -- was it Bone Crusher or Stone Crusher? 18 A: Stone Crusher. 19 Q: Stone Crusher -- 20 A: The Stone Crusher. 21 Q: -- being the bottom east end of the - 22 - of the diagram? 23 A: Oh, yeah. 24 Q: And the road that you had indicated 25 would be on the east side of the Military Reserve and the


1 road running is -- 2 A: Par -- 3 Q: -- essentially through the -- through 4 the middle, parallel? 5 A: And then that would be -- is that -- 6 that's Matheson Drive then up here? 7 Q: I believe so. 8 A: So, we had to go through there to get 9 to -- this would be the DND beach along here. 10 Q: All right. And again, for the 11 record, you're indicating the north end of the diagram, 12 right? Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mrs. Simon. And 13 just getting back to the employment that you had told us 14 about at the Army Base, the barracks, do you know whether 15 or not that -- that employment was pursuant to any kind 16 of agreement? 17 A: Our -- our understanding was because 18 it was our territory, that we had been promised 19 employment. 20 Q: So there would have been a number of 21 people from Stony Point working there? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Or Kettle Point and Stony Point as 24 you say? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Do you know whether or not that 2 changed at -- at any time? 3 A: It seemed like we had more when the 4 military were in charge of the kitchens and things. And 5 then eventually that was -- what did they call it? 6 Contracted out and different caterers would come in and 7 provide the meals during the summer. But it -- it seemed 8 to me we had more benefits when -- when the military had 9 -- had their -- because you were run by government 10 regulations then. 11 And it seemed like there was a big drop in 12 the employment later on that the people weren't used. I 13 knew of a lot people getting split shifts and things like 14 that with the catering companies. So they would have to 15 be there for the morning meal and have a little bit of 16 time off and then have to go back for the noon meal and 17 then have some time off and then have to go and -- and -- 18 whereas with the military I never heard of that 19 happening. You had early shift or late shift. So I 20 thought those benefits were better. 21 Q: All right. I believe you've told us 22 that your -- your late mother, Melba George was 23 originally from Kettle Point? 24 A: Yes, yes. 25 Q: And you would have grown up hearing


1 stories about your -- your mother's land or her family's 2 land? 3 A: Yes, and a lot of that would also be 4 a repetition of what you heard from Mrs. Bonnie 5 Bressette. Those -- that was also her grandparents 6 Morris and Flora, the same -- the same that my parents 7 would -- my mother would talk about the -- the homestead. 8 And she always was very proud of the farm that they had 9 and all of the things that they could do and ... 10 Q: You would have heard stories about 11 other families? 12 A: Hmm mmm. She had very close 13 association with Millikans (phonetic) and the Greenbirds 14 that I can't explain here. Just sort of across the 15 field, type of thing, in the neighbouring farms where the 16 very Mrs. Greenbird that we've heard her letter read, was 17 -- was Mrs. Beatty Greenbird was one (1) of them. 18 And she used to -- they also farmed and we 19 always looked forward to when she would come with a jar 20 of sour cream that she would bring to sell us and I was 21 always fascinated with their old farm, too, because they 22 had a place where they made maple syrup and -- and the 23 place where they boiled it outside. 24 And my mother had stories to tell about 25 all the visits and -- at one (1) point when we -- when I


1 was a baby we actually lived with -- with her parents 2 there. And she said I was a really good baby and had me 3 in a little basket on the top of the old ice box that -- 4 that -- they used to have big blocks of ice delivered 5 that would go in. And when people would be visiting they 6 didn't even know she had a baby. 7 I was so good and was sound asleep up on - 8 - in that little box upon the ice box. 9 Q: All right. And I understand that you 10 presently live on you -- on your mother's former 11 property? 12 A: Yes. She signed over a little piece 13 of the -- the little piece of land that they purchased 14 from her grandfather after they were married. 15 And when I transferred back to Kettle 16 Point she signed that little piece of land over so I 17 could try to build a house on it for my little family, my 18 two (2) sons and myself. 19 And that's very meaningful to me that 20 piece of property. My earliest memories of it were -- it 21 was a gravel pits. There were great big holes in the 22 ground where the gravel had been removed. 23 And they had purchased a little one (1) 24 room house with a little upstairs attic bedroom, when 25 they used to have that Little House on the Prairie show,


1 it was similar to that except ours was better. We 2 actually had a stairway that went up in the corner. 3 But our bedrooms were upstairs and we had 4 the one (1) room downstairs and I remember when my mum 5 would be scrubbing the floor. She'd say she was 6 scrubbing her kitchen and living room and bedroom and it 7 was all the one (1) room. 8 She had a -- a foldaway bed to sleep on 9 that folded up into a couch for the day time and -- and 10 we didn't have hydro back then and I always wanted to do 11 everything. 12 I remember I was -- like I was really 13 fascinating to see her washing clothes with the old wash 14 board, the big tub set up on two (2) -- two (2) chairs 15 and rubbing those. I didn't think it was so great when I 16 got blisters trying -- trying to do that, but -- and then 17 she had visitors that came. 18 Apparently they even had a birthday party 19 for me when I turned a year old in this little house and 20 she invited all her friends to come and visit and I 21 remember going to visit with Kathleen Solomon down -- 22 there's a store at the end of that -- we call it West 23 Ipperwash Road. The fourteenth of Bosanquet I believe 24 Bonnie called it. 25 There's a number of names that that road


1 has undergone. I think some people call it Rom's 2 (phonetic) Road, too and then for a while there, when it 3 was paved, it became a county road. So there's -- 4 there's a lot of names that -- there's the fourteenth of 5 Bosanquet. The West Ipperwash Road. 6 At the end of that road, Kathleen Solomon 7 lived and they were good friends and would visit back and 8 forth there as well. I believe she was part of the 9 Millikan family. 10 I'm not sure how that worked but she 11 married a Solomon from another reserve which is how the 12 name came there. It was a little different and they were 13 nice people. They -- Kay was a very good cook, in the 14 neighbouring town. She worked for years as a cook in the 15 -- used to be the old Forest Grill and was well known for 16 the french fries and things they were, like, fresh cut. 17 And her husband -- we were -- he was 18 always like a very stately type of man, very clean cut 19 and professional -- he was a fireman at the camp for 20 years and years and years. 21 And we were just proud of them that they 22 had these jobs then that -- that in accordance with I 23 guess that agreement that some of our people had 24 employment in that camp. Another dear friend she had was 25 Clara Milliken. The women back then they organized and -


1 - and they had homemakers clubs of Canada. 2 And it was a club that was promoted 3 community and family life and no matter what kind of 4 hardships they had, they -- they were practising things 5 that would help them to survive and take good care of 6 their families and their communities. 7 And I remember some of the things they did 8 was to take apart old coats and turn them and make snow 9 suits for us and they looked like they were new then by 10 having the interior parts of the material as the out -- 11 outer part of the snow suits. And they would work quite 12 diligently at that taking those and sewing and I was 13 always wishing I could sew with the patterns, the crinkly 14 sounds of the paper and the scissors snipping along. 15 And -- and they would give me things to 16 play with and they cut out like a little -- just a little 17 slip for dolly and help me to sew that and so I was 18 learning from them when I was very, very young. They did 19 -- they did good work. 20 Q: If I can just perhaps switch gears 21 here. I understand that as your father was originally 22 from Stony Point that he would have received some land 23 there at some -- at some time? 24 A: He always longed to go back there. 25 He would have received his forty -- forty (40) acre


1 allotment. I think that one of those diagrams they have 2 39.5 but he was just coming of that age, he was born in 3 '21 so he would have been twenty-one (21) years old when 4 this happened in '42. 5 He never got his home established in Stony 6 Point and he always longed for it. And that little plot 7 of land that through my mother being from Kettle Point, 8 they were able to purchase but it was with gravel pits 9 all around that the -- we collected garbage to fill those 10 in and he was a bulldozer operator and he would level 11 those off and cover them over with soil at times until 12 eventually it turned into a very nice lot. 13 He tried to practice a little bit of 14 farming there at times. He tried to raise pigs and -- 15 and geese or ducks and chickens and didn't -- didn't have 16 much luck. Our garden was pretty small that would grow 17 there. 18 That little piece of land that I moved 19 onto, I think we had over a hundred (100) loads of fill 20 to raise it up some and when I first got the culvert put 21 in there, they're were laughing that the ditch was 22 actually higher than the property itself. 23 And so we had to work hard to build it up 24 so it was liveable other than just a little part of the 25 summer where we'd have to park on the road for the other


1 parts of the year. 2 Q: So a great deal of effort had gone 3 into attempting to improve the land that -- that he -- 4 that your father eventually settled on? 5 A: Hmm, hmm. Yeah. We had a lot of 6 ingenious ways of doing things. I was always proud of 7 him too when our family got so big, he bought -- he built 8 a new house in 1953 and he -- he had to be off work for a 9 period of time there because he had had an accident and 10 his ankle was broken. 11 But he found a way to build a house with a 12 broken ankle. He -- he devised a peg leg. As I said, he 13 could carve so he carved it so there was like a -- a 14 place to place his knee and a place to belt that around 15 his waist which freed up his -- he didn't have to use 16 crutches. He had a peg leg instead that he used and he 17 padded it up with some rubber to make it soft. 18 And then I remember seeing him raising the 19 4x8 slats up to the ceiling with another means, so that 20 he'd get them up and find a way to nail them up. He did 21 a lot of the work himself on the house. I'm very proud 22 of him. 23 And I think that rubbed off on all of us 24 that he would find ingenious ways to -- to find a way to 25 solve any -- anything that come our way.


1 Q: This would be the house that he would 2 invite other Elders, other parents, in Kettle Point over, 3 other community members, so the Elders could talk about 4 history, about roots, those sorts of things? 5 A: Yes, they eventually put an addition 6 onto that as well, and extended that in, and I'm not sure 7 what year it was, whether it was the '60s or, but a nice 8 big living room was -- was put on the -- the south end of 9 the house, with a -- the bedroom upstairs as well, and it 10 was in that big living room that they had those meetings. 11 Q: You recall any of those meetings, as 12 to what might have been talked about? 13 A: Yes, I was very excited about those. 14 I would hear them talking, telling stories about 15 different individuals, and I would hear all these Ojibwe 16 names and I would attempt to write them down just using 17 the writing system I have for English, and when I could 18 read them back, the Elders were quite delighted with me 19 and they would tell me all the more, and they told of the 20 family connections. 21 Some of the things started out with 22 gathering information for our -- our Potawatomi roots, 23 and -- and telling us about those. They're -- they were 24 aware that there is a -- there was a land claim in the 25 States that there, I think, were complications to it


1 coming into Canada, that it had to go into the Federal 2 Government or something, rather than directly to the -- 3 the people. 4 But they worked hard at establishing the 5 family connections and -- and hearing those so we -- we 6 were able to hear the stories of our -- of Potawatomi 7 roots or stories of Mandoka and Chinoot (phonetic) and -- 8 and all of their family, and, it used to be really 9 exciting to hear things, and -- and amusing at times, 10 like I -- I remember that there were two (2) brothers, 11 and they named them Thomas George and Tommy George, and I 12 thought, well, they sound different, but I guess they 13 were hard-up for names, English names anyways; they had 14 lots of Ojibwe names, but...I always found that amusing. 15 And then we were able to figure out who of 16 those were our ancestors and then they did -- do that 17 story of how they were being put into the forced marches, 18 in the States, down into what was called Indian 19 Territory, and then during that Indian removal, the area 20 in the States and knowing that they're part of the Three 21 Fires Confederacy, that we are all brothers and sisters 22 with the Ojibwe and Adabwa (phonetic) people, the 23 Potawatomis. 24 And many of them inter-married with the 25 women up around here as well, so we have again, our


1 ancestors going and, including both, and we would hear 2 those stories back in the '60s in those meetings that 3 were held. 4 And the really exciting part with me is 5 that I started school being a very bright child. I had 6 an older brother and sister that could, when they started 7 school, whatever they did, I had to do too, and when they 8 learned to read and write, I did too. 9 So when I started, when I was old enough, 10 they didn't know what to do with me, because I already 11 knew how to read and write, so, they -- they put me up 12 into grade 2 and then at another point I -- I was put 13 ahead in another grade, and I started high school when I 14 was eleven (11), and then I -- I quit when I was twelve. 15 And then I started to get my education 16 with these old people, as I feel like it. I really 17 learned about what was important to me, from -- from 18 those people, and it was very exciting to me when I heard 19 and found primary source documents that matched up what 20 they said in those stories. 21 Q: So some of what you were told by way 22 of traditional knowledge from your family and other 23 Elders you were able to validate at some later point. Is 24 that -- 25 A: Yes, yes. And it -- and it certainly


1 disproved the history books that our people were savages. 2 Q: Hmm mmm. 3 A: I didn't like that term. 4 Q: We were given to understand that, 5 throughout your parents' lives, they had always been 6 quite active in seeking to recover the Stony Point lands. 7 A: That's partly it, hmm mmm. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And there -- as I said, there was 10 also the efforts at -- at establishing and teaching our 11 Potawatomi heritage as well and they're all intertwined, 12 our family connections, our genealogies and they just 13 told the stories of Stony Point and they let us know that 14 it had been promised to us to return there at the end of 15 the war and we knew the war was over. 16 Q: All right. And your -- your parents, 17 in fact, we have seen the pictures. I'm not sure if they 18 are entered in evidence at this point, but we've seen 19 pictures of people who were identified as Dan and Melva 20 George in lawn chairs sitting next to the army base, 21 along the road with handpainted signs setting out exactly 22 those -- 23 A: Hmm mmm. 24 Q: -- those comments that you've just 25 given us.


1 A: I -- I know which picture you're 2 talking of and it's in their later years that -- that one 3 was in 1990 and I believe there was a lot of fear built 4 up in the media with portrayal of war years with the Oka 5 crisis and when there was to be this demonstration. 6 I remember that really being built up in 7 the media and that was the extent of the demonstration 8 was my mum and dad and Bernice that -- that were handing 9 out leaflets there. 10 Again, giving out information that this 11 was our -- our homeland and he was really in failing 12 health. He had a health problem with emphysema from his 13 years of working on the bull dozer at -- for years he 14 worked without never in an enclosed cab. One of them was 15 to bulldoze in the fibreglass dump and he breathed all 16 that stuff in. 17 Another -- another thing he had done was 18 to actually bulldoze those hills that now form Centennial 19 park in Sarnia, so we're proud of those, what our father 20 had done. 21 And when he was alive and well so -- it's 22 kind of sad to see that picture where he had to sit in a 23 wheel -- not a wheelchair but a lawn chair, 'cause he -- 24 he was always a strong, vibrant man. 25 And that was in his declining years, just


1 prior to his death that he did that. 2 Q: Okay. And your -- your mother 3 participated in those demonstrations, if I can put it 4 that way? 5 A: Oh yes. Yes, quite often she made 6 the signs that he would be wearing. They worked as a 7 team -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: --it was a comfort to see the way 10 they did. They always had their differences but they 11 would always come back together and worked as a team. 12 Q: And, Mrs. Simon, do you ever recall 13 at any point during your parents' lives that they weren't 14 interested in recovering these lands? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Or at any -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- point in time where they weren't 19 actively engaged in something to recover these lands? 20 A: No. That was always that -- it was 21 just a given that we would be back there some day. 22 Q: And we understand, or I understand, 23 rather, that you have taken part in many such like 24 demonstrations for the return of these lands. You 25 co-ordinated letter writing campaigns, petitions.


1 A: I did whatever I could that I -- I 2 could figure what might be a -- something that might be 3 helpful. I also tried to keep abreast of the laws that - 4 - I was excited when laws would change, because in that 5 era in 1942, our -- our people had very little rights in 6 Canada. 7 They couldn't vote, and I think that's 8 probably one of the reasons why our parents embraced 9 that. So, they put a lot of hope in that, that -- I 10 don't share their same optimism, but -- but they really 11 exercised those rights when they could finally -- she 12 would tell us stories about even when they were young 13 people. 14 There used to be a dance pavilion on the 15 beach there at the Centre Ipperwash Road, where they held 16 dances, and as young people, we went and danced there all 17 the time and never -- and they told us that they could 18 only look in the windows at the people dancing in their - 19 - in their time. 20 So we saw, over the course of years, a 21 change in the laws that allowed the voting, that suddenly 22 a Member of Parliament may have their ear open to us, to 23 have a -- a few more votes. And then with the Charter of 24 Rights and Freedoms, it -- it was something that again I 25 felt was necessary, we have all these horrible, horrible


1 experiences in our -- in our families, of what was done 2 to our people in the residential schools. Our mother 3 said just one thing that would set her off and she would 4 cry, broken heartedly, over what was done to them. 5 I went to supply teach in the school in 6 Forest here, after they brought the Native -- the Ojibwe 7 language, and that just happened in 1988, and I prepared 8 a supply-teaching kit, which included a nice big book 9 that -- I -- I used one of John Langstaff's 'Over in the 10 Meadow', and it got put into Ojibwe with nice pictures. 11 And this Grade 3 class, there was one 12 little boy, that he just says, gall, those are nice 13 pictures, and he was just sitting there just...and it 14 turned out it was her brother Calvin's grandson, and I 15 went home and I told her, I said, he was really 16 enthralled, and I said, and what I noted was the 17 brightness of his eyes, they were just on fire in there, 18 he was so pleased with this Ojibwe classes, the Ojibwe 19 book, admiring the pictures. 20 I said, I could just imagine how Uncle 21 Cabbage looked like as a little boy in Grade 3. And she 22 start crying and she said, she remembered them knocking 23 him right on the floor, right off his chair when he spoke 24 in our language. 25 Matt -- those scars with many of us and


1 our mother really took to the language, that she had been 2 abused like that as a child and it was a way of trying -- 3 trying hard to say that this is right, it is indeed a 4 beautiful rich language, it should have never been used 5 the way it was. 6 Q: So your mother was involved in -- in 7 recovering language and culture and tradition, more than 8 just the land? 9 A: Yes. They all go hand-in-hand now. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm going to move on 11 to another section, and I'm wondering, Mr. Commissioner, 12 if this might a good place to break for lunch? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We did start 14 at nine o'clock this morning, I think this would be an 15 excellent place. Thank you very much. Yes, let's break 16 for lunch from now until 1:15. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 21 adjourned until 1:15 p.m. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 12:04 p.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 1:15 p.m. 25


1 --- Upon resuming at 1:15 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This inquiry is now 4 resumed. Please be seated. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: When we had left off, Mrs. Simon, I 9 was about to ask you about the events that occurred in 10 1993, specifically the occupation of Camp Ipperwash. 11 However, just before we go there, I just 12 want to put up on the screen a photograph which will be 13 up momentarily. It's at Tab 1 in the binder that has 14 been provided. I think electronic copies have been 15 distributed. It's simply a photograph. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's hard to 20 see because of this light. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: We'll just see if we 22 can get those lights adjusted and ... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: That's somebody you might recognize, 3 Mrs. Simon? 4 A: That's my handsome dad. 5 Q: All right. And where would that 6 photograph be taken, if you know? 7 A: To the best of my knowledge, it's 8 taken in Kettle Point. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: And it's where their house had been 11 moved to. That's his parents house in the background and 12 in later years, after our grandparents had passed and 13 everything, actually Dudley's parents had arranged a 14 trade and they eventually used that as their home in 15 later years. 16 With -- but that was our grandparents' 17 home. My dad's home. 18 Q: That home would seem to be sitting on 19 blocks. 20 A: Yes. You can see them in -- in 21 there. And on this end over here, they built an addition 22 on. That was later to become the kitchen that we knew 23 and they had an upstairs. There was a -- like a dormer 24 in the front above his head there and they had two (2) -- 25 two (2) rooms up there that were used for bedrooms.


1 And it was up in that upstairs where I was 2 born in Kettle Point. 3 Q: I see. And that -- that house 4 remains today, does it? 5 A: No. It burnt down when Reg -- Reg's 6 family was living there. 7 Q: I see. If I can take you then to 8 1993, you're familiar with an event that occurred in May 9 of '93 which we've heard something about already. 10 A: May 6, 1993 our people moved into the 11 firing ranges at Stony Point -- Camp Ipperwash. 12 Q: And where you there when -- when your 13 people moved into the firing ranges, as you put it? 14 A: I was at work and saw it on the news 15 and I immediately -- I -- I was at work in London and got 16 there as soon as I could. It was a very exciting, 17 historic time for us. And I knew our uncle Nobby, Robert 18 junior was also very active in working with the Stony 19 Pointers to take this additional step. 20 They originally went in to the area not 21 too far from the stone crusher there and what I had 22 pointed out earlier. And we didn't even have tents or 23 anything, some people did. So there -- the first little 24 area was, I guess we jokingly referred to it as the mud 25 creek community.


1 And little -- little camp sites sprang up 2 here and there where other people went to their 3 homesteads of where the -- their families came from. 4 One (1) of the first really substantial 5 campsites after that had been the Mannings; the Elijah 6 camp site in behind the Stone Crusher and it was nice 7 back in there. They cleared it up and had a nice 8 cookhouse and places to sleep. 9 They even eventually had a -- a sweat 10 lodge built out in behind and if I'm not mistaken, one 11 (1) of my son's experiences for a sweat lodge out in 12 behind there. 13 Q: And for those that aren't -- that 14 aren't familiar, a sweat lodge you would describe or 15 could you describe what that might be? Even in very 16 general terms for us? 17 A: It's a little round -- rounded -- I 18 don't how to explain it. 19 Q: Dome shaped construction? 20 A: Dome -- dome shaped structure that's 21 built right close to the earth with only natural elements 22 in it and in the centre of it they would place the heated 23 grandfathers or the big rocks that -- it would be covered 24 very securely so none of the steam would come out from 25 that. And the people would go in and sit in there to be


1 cleansed and purified and be restored. 2 Q: It's a spiritual activity? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. On the screen right 5 beside you, I wonder if you might just point out where it 6 was that the Mannings campground was? 7 A: Again, if this is the Stone Crusher 8 here, then it would have been in on that backside of it 9 facing the road. 10 Q: All right. And where would you have 11 been located? I understand you eventually did set up a - 12 - a campsite. 13 A: We -- we heard testimony about where 14 Dudley's trailer was located and I believe they pointed 15 out to be about here. And the Robert and Laura George 16 estate was right in this area here. 17 Q: And just for the purposes of the 18 record, you're noting almost adjacent to Highway 21, the 19 north side of Highway 21? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Approximately in the middle of the 22 diagram? 23 A: Mmm hmm. Up until this interior 24 road, access road was built here parallel to Highway 21, 25 our grandfather's -- our grandparents' well always stood


1 there and that was our marker that -- that was our symbol 2 of our home, that well. And then when they built the 3 road that was no longer for us. 4 Q: Oh, I see. For a well, you mean for 5 drawing drinking water and -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- water for the household use? 8 A: Mmm hmm. 9 Q: Now May 6th of 1993 you've described 10 as a historic day. When did you actually arrive to join 11 the others that were there? 12 A: It was in the evening. 13 Q: Of the same day? 14 A: Mmm hmm. 15 Q: Your sons Marlin and Kevin had joined 16 you at some point? 17 A: Yes. Yes. They -- they just threw 18 their everything into that. And I believe that they 19 initially stayed at the other campsites up -- up in here 20 once that one was -- until we got our own campsite on the 21 George -- Grandma and Grandpa George's estate there. 22 Q: All right. You initially indicated 23 around the Stone Crusher area? 24 A: Yep. 25 Q: Okay. We had heard something about


1 there being pup tents or that sort of thing -- 2 A: Mmm hmm. 3 Q: -- from other -- 4 A: And my sons didn't even have that. 5 My youngest had a red Nissan truck, I think it was. And 6 I remember running around trying to find a topper for it 7 so at least he could sleep in the back of the truck or 8 something. 9 And eventually they -- they -- I think 10 others loaned him a tent to sleep in or -- or -- there 11 was hardly -- there was still frost on the ground and I 12 had concerns. I didn't want them getting sick. 13 Q: The people were nonetheless content 14 with camping outside in tents even -- in spite of the 15 frost on the ground? 16 A: They did their best to scramble 17 around and get things. And myself, I knew the importance 18 of having better facilities so I -- I shopped around for 19 some old used camper trailers and I purchased two (2) -- 20 two (2) of those and that one week we moved three (3) of 21 them into our grandparents' estate. 22 And at that time we had to come in, 23 there's a gate at the very end of the property here that 24 -- that -- it's kind of cut off here. There was a -- 25 there was a gate at the end here so we'd have to go in


1 there and we pulled the trailer all along those roads and 2 there's a bridge over Mud Creek there and had to bring 3 them all the way up over into there. 4 And there was one bridge, it looked pretty 5 iffy. And we made it across with those. So, two (2) of 6 them belonged to me and one (1) to my other sister, 7 Catherine. So, that added to our campsite there. 8 Someone else donated a -- a tent trailer; one of those 9 that pop up. 10 And eventually we got a bus in there to 11 store supplies so the mice and stuff wouldn't eat it. It 12 was up off the ground and they built a cookhouse and then 13 Hampsters. They invested in a trailer for Hampster. 14 Q: I'm -- I'm sorry, who's -- who was 15 Hampster? 16 A: Oh, I'm sorry. Abraham. Our uncle 17 Abraham. That's what he was called a hampster; Abra 18 Hampster. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And so, he was in there and he had 21 shown -- guided our -- our people to know -- make sure it 22 was exactly where they grew up. And he was really up in 23 years. I'm not sure if he was born in 1918 or 1919, 24 something like that. So, he was up in years. 25 And these old people that went in there,


1 some of them they would say things like it was the 2 happiest days of their lives. You could see the -- the 3 tears in the back of their eyes. They were -- they were 4 so happy that they didn't think they would ever see that 5 time. 6 Q: When they would be back on Stony 7 Point lands? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. Did you eventually reside 10 or come to reside in the trailers that you had indicated 11 you had brought into the George -- 12 A: I -- I stayed there occasionally. We 13 -- I also stayed in London; I was working in London. And 14 then I had a house, partly completed house in Kettle 15 Point where I had telephone service that I always 16 maintained that as our communication base. 17 But I allowed my trailers to be used for 18 more hardy individuals. I have arthritis, rheumatism 19 condition where I ache with the cold and -- 20 Q: Okay 21 A: -- others didn't -- be affected so 22 badly. 23 Q: I just want to draw your attention to 24 an article. Incidentally this was distributed to counsel 25 by e-mail distribution earlier last week, Mr.


1 Commissioner. It is an article from the London Free 2 Press purportedly dated May 31st of 1993. The headline 3 reads "Camp Ipperwash Stony Point First Nation Intends To 4 Stand Ground." 5 Perhaps I can just show you this document? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I take it 10 it's not in this binder? 11 MR. DONALD WORME: It should be under Tab 12 3 -- Tab 3. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, okay. 14 Yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. DONALD WORME: Under Tab 7? All 19 right. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 22 Q: You've had a chance to see that 23 before, Mrs. Simon? 24 A: I probably did but it's kind of hazy 25 in my memory. Now, there's a lot of things that have


1 happened since 1993. But -- yes I ... 2 Q: And having had occasion then to 3 examine that, does it confirm for you any of the 4 principles that those that had moved into the -- into the 5 camp had moved in under? 6 That is, was there -- was there a 7 philosophy that was determined in approaching these 8 lands? 9 A: It was very adamant -- we were very 10 adamant that it would be non-violent. I mean, we -- 11 we're just a small group of people who -- there's no way 12 we could expect to take on the military with arms and 13 weapons so, it would be a foolish thing to do. 14 Within the month -- I believe by this a 15 sacred fire had been lit. Is that in here? 16 That was on our grandparents' estate that 17 --that sacred fire was lit in May. And -- I'm just 18 trying to find it if it's in here somewhere. 19 Q: It may not be on there, but it might 20 be on the document that I intend to refer you to next. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: There were -- there were two (2) 25 other things though -- that -- one (1) of them was the


1 sacred fire and there were very strict protocols round 2 that where you had to be clean for a number of days; drug 3 free and alcohol free to take part in that. 4 And our -- our people really tried as they 5 were eager to hear those teachings that would be given 6 around that sacred fire. And our people worked hard to 7 keep that going. They -- they lit it in May of that year 8 and it was kept going until the end of October; that's 9 twenty-four (24) hours a day, seven (7) days a week. 10 I think that attests to our determination 11 of what we were there to do. The other ceremony that was 12 very important was the planting of that peace tree and 13 again, I was at work when that happened. But the symbol 14 -- the symbolism of it is that those weapons of war were 15 buried. 16 Now, Clifford to burying the hatchet. 17 It's symbolic of burying those weapons of war and 18 planting a tree of peace to grow. That tree of peace was 19 transplanted from my father's place in Kettle Point to 20 that location there and we did something in London where 21 I was working in front of the -- at the forks of the 22 Thames at the art gallery there. 23 And again many of us took that very 24 seriously. My mother was very, very proud of that and 25 one of my brother-in-laws, Daryl Stonefish (phonetic) had


1 made one (1) of the tomahawks or hatchets that were to be 2 used in that ceremony to bury it there. 3 And we still go and hang tobacco on that 4 tree and go and pray for our community there. So, it's a 5 -- a spot that's symbolic. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And sacred. 8 Q: Right. Thank you for that. You had 9 mentioned you had put up your campsite or the trailers 10 that you had brought in somewhere near where Dudley was 11 living; did I hear you correctly there? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And by Dudley, you mean the late 14 Dudley George? 15 A: Yeah. But actually our camp site was 16 there before his trailer was there. 17 Q: All right. And how would you have 18 known Dudley George? I gather he's a relative of yours. 19 A: Yes. Our families were fairly close. 20 Our parents socialized together with -- with them and 21 while they would be out in the evenings the whole bunch 22 of us would be all together, maybe getting into some 23 mischief and having some really grand old times together. 24 But at one point they lived in Sarnia and 25 we would go and stay there with them and Watson White's


1 place and then their other place where they lived in the 2 old United Church manse. And we would maybe spend the 3 weekends together, but -- and the same thing, they would 4 come and stay at our place. 5 Then at times they lived next door to us 6 as well, on both sides in -- in the house that used to be 7 our grandparents, and then on the north side of us, there 8 -- that's the house that they had traded, it was a 9 smaller house. That too was recently burnt down. It's 10 not there anymore, and our grandma Laura lived in that 11 until she died, the smaller house. 12 Q: Okay. So -- 13 A: So -- so we knew Dudley that way. 14 And then off and on over the years, he would be in and 15 out of our home to stay overnight with my brothers and 16 visit my parents and I remember once, I was -- I had one 17 -- we used to go and swim at the channel in Kettle Point, 18 across from the ball park, and I took my brothers and 19 sisters down there and, well my one brother Moon, I mean 20 Mark, was kind of making a big fuss, oh it's kind of 21 cold. And then we had Dudley and Peter come along and 22 they just went flying off the dock and jumped into the 23 water and showed them what the channel was to be used 24 for. 25 So, they -- they came around and start --


1 when they lived in Sarnia, a lot of the people used to 2 swim in the St. Clair River, they used to swim right 3 across and were really good swimmers, until it got too 4 polluted, and they had to stay out of it. 5 But, they were very good swimmers that 6 way, and they came, and we would go down to the channel 7 there, that -- I always admired those two (2), Dudley and 8 Peter, for showing them, like, how to enjoy the channel 9 that way. 10 Q: All right. So, you knew him -- you 11 knew him as a child? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And as -- as he was growing up, you 14 got to know him as well, or you continued, I suppose, 15 to -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. And off and on, and 17 periodically here and there and ... 18 Q: Perhaps you might have visited him at 19 his trailer once he moved in next door to you? 20 A: Yes, I did, quite regularly -- in 21 there. That -- his trailer was the bigger one and with 22 the other ones, my sons living in the smaller little 23 ones, they used to congregate together daily and prepare 24 their meals together in the bigger trailer. 25 And quite often we would take, maybe a big


1 pot of soup, or do up some wheels, the gungion (phonetic) 2 that we -- that we -- that fried bread that we call them; 3 take them up there and -- there was one year I -- I 4 approached Dudley -- and my -- my sons are very 5 committed, it's like we lost our -- our family life in 6 other home, and when my son's birthday was approaching in 7 December, I -- I asked Dudley if -- if I could prepare 8 the -- the birthday feast to take it there, and he 9 thought that was fine. 10 So, I had a big roast turkey dinner and 11 all the trimmings that I took there and we set a big 12 table up in his living room in there, and they all -- we 13 all feasted together then. That was -- I was -- I was 14 glad that he did that, so we could at least have some 15 semblance of family life with my sons too, in there, 16 under those harsh conditions. 17 Q: And, can you tell us when this was? 18 A: Whether that was the winter of '94 -- 19 Q: Okay, so it would have been -- 20 A: So, his -- his birthday's on December 21 the 10th -- December the 10th, so it would have been 22 December of '94. 23 Q: Under Tab 2 -- and I'm not sure what 24 it is in the other ... 25 "A Tribute to Dudley Anthony O'Brien


1 George"; is that what you were referring to? 2 A: Oh. This is -- this is something 3 different. This -- 4 Q: I wonder if you could tell us. 5 A: At the end of that first winter, we'd 6 heard rumours that the local, some of the local people 7 around, were taking bets as to how long our people would 8 stay there, once the cold weather set in, because they 9 were pretty make-shift conditions they were living in. 10 But they made it through, it was a record cold winter as 11 well. And -- 12 Q: I'm told it's under Tab 6, just to 13 interrupt you briefly. It's under Tab 6 for other -- for 14 others -- it's und -- it is under Tab 2, Mr. Commissioner 15 in the Exhibit Book put in front of you. 16 A: And we wanted to honour those young 17 hardy individuals, those young men that stayed there 18 under those pretty rugged conditions. So we planned to 19 have a feast to honour them and it was entitled 20 "Surviving the first winter back In Stony Point, a 21 tribute to our Stony Point Residents." 22 And it was to all those young men that 23 stayed there all -- all that winter. And then we also 24 found out it was Clifford's birthday , old Cliff Tosh as 25 we called him and Dudley's is on the 17th. That's a


1 very, very easy one to remember and his associate with 2 his Irish middle name, O'Brian so. 3 We also decided then to honour the two (2) 4 of them for their -- for their birthdays. Clifford was 5 getting up in years and the Aazhoodena quawok (phonetic), 6 the Stony Point women as we called ourselves, planned 7 this celebration and had a -- a feast and decided upon a 8 program. And I was selected to do the tribute to Dudley 9 and Clifford's sister, Bernice, was to do the one for 10 Clifford and I think it landed up his daughter ended up 11 delivering it. 12 But this really brings back good memories 13 because whenever you do something for Dudley he -- he 14 really appreciated it and he made you feel good for doing 15 something. And I had banners done up in the Ojibwa Mno- 16 dbishkaa Giizhgad, happy birthday, and had them up in 17 there and he actually took those home with him and put 18 them up in his trailer. 19 And in here I felt that he was put down a 20 lot and as an orphan I took offence to that and I -- it 21 made me more determined to do a nicer job for him. 22 Q: As an orphan, you mean? 23 A: His parents were gone. 24 Q: I see. 25 A: So I made a determined effort to get


1 -- to do a nice tribute to him as best I could. And his 2 brother Pierre and sister Carolyn and his partner 3 Carolyn, all helped with this. And I was really pleased 4 when -- and -- and nothing was ever made of his parents 5 as being veterans. 6 So I made sure that the pictures of them 7 were included in there as well. Because we were proud of 8 them. We all knew in our family that they were but no 9 mention was ever made of them in any kind of honorary 10 way. So we put that inside here on the second page. 11 And then in the tribute I started off: 12 "A tribute to Dudley, born December the 13 17th, 1957. On March the 7th, 1957 a 14 little brown baby boy that ate 15 nagdoonsag --" 16 Mom always nag -- their dad's nickname was nagdoon so 17 their children were little nagdoonsag, they're little -- 18 little nagdoosag. 19 "was born in Sarnia to Reginald 20 Ransford George Jr. and Genevieve 21 Pauline Rogers George." 22 And I wanted to make sure her name was 23 included in there because she comes from an upright 24 family in Sarnia having a brother that was chief there 25 for years and years and years and their parents before


1 them were community leaders. Fred and Edna had been 2 friends of our family, friends of our grandparents. 3 And I wanted that all to be included in 4 here. 5 "He was given the name Anthony O'Brian 6 George by mother Genevieve who thought 7 an Irish name would be appropriate. 8 Uncle Nug and Aunt Jenny had already 9 had Karen Gail, Michael Patrick who was 10 deceased in '49, Reginald Jr., Carolyn 11 Joyce or Cully, Maynard Donald or 12 Sambo, Or Sam, Perry Neil Watson or 13 Pierre, and Joan Marie Marie," We 14 always called Hoss and later they had 15 David Lorne and we knew him as Peter 16 and Pamela Rose who was the Mouse or 17 Mouser, and if that weren't enough they 18 adopted Lavern Razz to complete their 19 family. 20 Baby Dudley went home from the hospital 21 to join his family living at Watson 22 White's place on LaSalle Road in Sarnia 23 Reserve and one day he missed the bus 24 when in kindergarten at Johnson 25 Memorial on Russell Street.


1 And Jenny, being worried about -- 2 worried, called the school to find out 3 where her little Tony was, as she used 4 to call him when he was little. He was 5 little Tony. But being a true 6 Anishnaabe he knew his way home and 7 they found him way out near fibre 8 glass, almost home, actually. 9 And at this home they said he liked to 10 swim in the creek with the frogs and 11 the snakes and we've added some extra 12 silly things in there. 13 While I was reading this, he started 14 out in one spot in that little 15 building that came to be known as our 16 argument hall. It was supposed to be 17 the church referred to others and was 18 also a place to meet, but it got dubbed 19 the argument hall because of all the 20 differences that were aired within 21 there. 22 He would be standing in one corner at 23 one point and he just had so much fun 24 at -- he would go and -- while I turned 25 back to read some more I would think he


1 was standing over there and when I'd 2 look up he'd be gone and he would be 3 standing over hiding behind someone in 4 another corner and just having a great 5 ball that he'd tricked me while I was 6 reading this. 7 Then on Tashmoo, in the old United 8 church manse he was found laying beside 9 the car with an open gas tank nearby 10 and some of his family wondered if he 11 ran out of gas and that was always, I 12 guess, a fear that they would smell the 13 fumes out of the gas tanks in these old 14 vehicles. 15 This home was the one with the famous 16 porch roof escape from the second floor 17 to sneak out, to get out over on the 18 verandah, I guess. 19 In the 1960's Dudley's parents traded 20 houses with grandma Laura in Kettle 21 Point. 22 And that was the house I was showing you. 23 Q: Right. 24 A: Yeah. Unfortunately this -- this 25 whole house burned a couple of times. And after one of


1 the fires, Dudley had to go and live with aunt Daisy and 2 uncle Duffson, this is what I'm hearing from his -- his 3 brothers and sister there. 4 And he hated Sundays because he had to 5 join them in the Port Huron church in 6 Port Huron. Also, his sister Karen was 7 killed in 1969 and Karen was my 8 playmate. She was -- she was my age., 9 leaving behind two (2) little ones in 10 Sarnia, Adam (Carey Randall), and Oopie 11 (Arnold Clifton) or Spook and Pusser as 12 they were now called. 13 In 1970, Nug and Jenny finally realized 14 their lifetime dream, a brand new home. 15 Or a new home. But this was in the 16 town of Forest and with an inheritance 17 that Jenny received from her uncle 18 Watson she was able to furnish her home 19 tastefully and shortly thereafter Jenny 20 died in 1971 and little Tony was 21 without his mum. 22 In Forest, Tony did a lot of TV 23 viewing and became heartily involved in 24 some of the children's programs. In 25 the early 1970's Dudley joined the


1 Banana Splits club from TV and became a 2 brother banana. 3 Dudley also wrote into the National 4 Inquirer after spotting a TV blooper, 5 winning for himself a blooper T shirt 6 and a special certificate. 7 But all was not happy. On the other 8 side of life, Dudley also spent some 9 time in Guelph but gained valuable 10 experience by sitting on the native 11 sons executive committee and at the 12 same time, his older brother, Pierre, 13 was in Birch, and they corresponded 14 with each other and Dudley, he also 15 wrote to his aunt Melba and uncle Dan, 16 signing off, Dudley Hoser, king of the 17 Hosers. 18 I remember seeing that letter. 19 "While living in the little town of 20 Forest, the George family stood their 21 ground improving native white relations 22 over the years during the process. And 23 about this time, Dudley's younger 24 brother Peter, passed away. Then in 25 1986 our grandma Laura went on to the


1 next life and Dudley's father also 2 joined her. 3 In May 1993 Dudley's home land was 4 opened to him in Stony Point. Finally 5 some roots, finally a community and 6 finally a home. Now all he needs is a 7 Kwe, which is a woman, to produce many 8 little Dadiinsag or some little Duds 9 and Dudettes, as they call them. 10 And in the midst of this biography we 11 didn't -- purposely didn't mention anything about his 12 mountain climbing experiences and we will leave that up 13 to you to ask about that. 14 "And in closing, even though we may not 15 always be serious, Dudley, who is 16 speaking directly to him, we do want to 17 let you know that we give thanks to 18 Gshe-mnidoo [that's our creator] for 19 you, for making it through. Dudley, 20 from your cousins, your aunts, your 21 uncles, brothers, sisters, all you 22 relations for your dedication and 23 perseverance for hanging in there. As 24 a Stony Pointer we say Gchi-Miigwech, 25 [it's a big thank you. Thank you very


1 much.] 2 May you continue to work as a 3 Etwaagnkejig, [that's] a nation builder 4 for Stony Point. Gchi-miigwech miinwaa 5 Mno-dbishkaa Giizhgad. Thank you and 6 Happy Birthday." 7 And even the word etwaagnkejig, we 8 approached our -- our Elder Uncle Abe Hampster and asked 9 him what would be the appropriate word in our language 10 and he thought about it for a period of time and this is 11 what he come up with. 12 They had great respect for a preacher that 13 lived amongst them when they were in Stony Point by the 14 name of Bill Shaw and he spoke of etwaagn; that heavenly 15 home. And this is what we are charged to attempt to 16 build is that heavenly home for our community to be 17 restored here by being called etwaagnikejig. 18 Q: Thank you very much for that. That 19 was a -- a tribute to signify your -- your appreciation I 20 gather for the people who had stayed over and I 21 understand that to be Cliff -- Clifford George and the 22 late Dudley George? 23 A: Hmm hmm, yes. 24 Q: And obviously they were -- we were 25 told supported by others from time to time --


1 A: Yes, yes. 2 Q: -- including yourself? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. I just want to touch 5 briefly on a point and I don't mean -- and I don't intend 6 to dwell on it but we may hear evidence at some point of 7 various reports in reports in respect to Dudley that he 8 might have been in possession of a gun, or he may have 9 pointed a gun at somebody, particularly Army personnel or 10 any such thing. 11 Do you have any knowledge about that at 12 all? 13 A: No. I -- I would just find it 14 preposterous to think of Dud -- of Dudley with a gun. It 15 just -- just didn't see that. 16 Q: All right. What about we may hear 17 some evidence that there might have been some shooting in 18 the camp at different points. Are you aware of anything 19 like that? 20 A: Not actually shooting. While they 21 had manoeuvres going on you -- you would hear some 22 shooting. There -- and they were using the base when we 23 first went in there. I know when they were sitting out 24 on the ranges there, they were still shooting off 25 grenades. Those are pretty violent explosions if you're


1 sitting there. 2 And I remember one Sunday afternoon people 3 had a church service. I remember old Cliff, his whole 4 face was all sunburnt because they didn't have any 5 shelter at that time. They had a church service out in 6 the open field and -- and there times when the grenades 7 would be going off. 8 In that earliest period we -- we would see 9 the military jogging down the road singing those sounds 10 and armed. People were terrified of that because they 11 didn't know what they were planning to do. 12 Those are the only things I can account 13 for but you certainly would know the difference between a 14 grenade blast and a gunshot. 15 Q: All right. What about automatic 16 weapon fired. Did you ever hear anything like that in 17 any of the time that you were there and I understand you 18 were there and continued to remain there even now? 19 A: I'm not really sure what -- what 20 automatic is. Whether I would just guess that it would 21 like firecrackers going off. I don't -- I don't know. I 22 know even in our home in Kettle Point we could hear when 23 they were using the -- the ranges we'd hear the blasting 24 on a clear day. So, I'm not -- I'm not aware of people 25 shooting other than occasional hunters that would go in


1 there. I don't know. 2 Q: And by occasional hunters, were any 3 of those your fellow Stony Pointers you think as you 4 called them? 5 A: Oh yes. I was just thinking, I'd 6 heard -- this is an amusing story. I heard where they 7 went out -- they went out hunting this one night and I'm 8 not sure exactly where and they -- they came home empty 9 handed and I had to go to work the next day. 10 And on my way home this nice little black 11 car ahead of me ran over a deer and he was obviously 12 really shaken. He'd almost lost control of his car and 13 everything and the old deer is laying there. 14 So, he came to a stop and asked him if he 15 wanted it and -- my younger son -- I think he was kind of 16 embarrassed and that guy didn't want the deer. So, we 17 loaded it on the trunk of my car and tied it on with 18 bungie-cords and took it to our campsite. 19 That was up closer to London where that 20 happened on that Nerron (phonetic) Road. And we drove 21 kind of slowly and that old deer was bleeding and cars 22 were passing us and they were turning around, looking at 23 this strange sight. 24 But, I knew my dad appreciated that -- 25 that kind of stuff. He was aware when they changed that,


1 where we could take the road kill if there was an 2 accident, and an animal was killed. So, that's what -- I 3 learned we could do that, so we did. 4 And, when we got to the campsite, you'd 5 have to hear Carolyn laughing to know how silly that can 6 be, but when we turned in the gate, we could hear her 7 laughing. She saw the deer on the -- on the trunk of the 8 car. I went to work and brought home a deer and our 9 hunters came home empty handed. 10 Q: You were -- you were aware of an 11 allegation of a helicopter being shot? 12 A: I was aware of it and I don't know 13 what to think about that. I just feel that sometimes 14 things are in the paper, in a -- like a propaganda war -- 15 a propaganda war against us, and I felt that this was 16 another one of those things to discredit us. 17 Q: Right. But I -- I'm sorry. But I 18 gather you weren't around when this event allegedly 19 occurred, or is alleged to have occurred? 20 A: No, but I was there shortly after and 21 I was there shortly before -- 22 Q: And you -- 23 A: -- but not specifically when it 24 happened. 25 Q: And you had a residence at the Stony


1 Point location at that time? 2 A: Yes, yes. 3 Q: And we are told that there was a 4 search conducted of the various residences in relation to 5 that event? 6 A: Yes, and I had the doors in the -- 7 they were broken open and they remained that way to this 8 day. They pried the doors open and broke the locks on 9 our -- on our homes there -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- during that search. 12 Q: And during the time that -- that you 13 were there, well any of the time that you were there, 14 were you -- did you see any weapons at all? 15 A: No. But I'd heard that occasionally 16 they would go out hunting and -- and they were very 17 meticulous about keeping them stored away safe and secure 18 -- and I would never go and ask them specifically where 19 they stored them. But I particularly -- didn't see them. 20 Q: Okay. At some point in time, you 21 would have moved into your present residence at the 22 barracks? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Do you know when that was? 25 A: July the 29th, 1995.


1 Q: Okay. And where is your -- your 2 residence? 3 A: It's Building 46 -- known as 4 Building 46, and the former Roman Catholic Chapel. It 5 still has the confessional in the back and the red altar 6 up at the front and -- and it's divided off at the end 7 for a little area for the priest living quarters, and 8 that's where my mother and I lived, at first. 9 Q: And if you just look under Tab 9 of 10 the document book in front of you, and I'm afraid I can't 11 advise other Counsel under what that would be. It is the 12 building occupation -- Tab 14, thank you. 13 I think you've identified Building 46? 14 A: Yes, and that's a little building, 15 sort of by itself with a road all the way around it. 16 Q: And I wonder if you could maybe just 17 on the document you have in your hand, sort of indicate 18 generally where that might be? If you could just hold it 19 up so the Commissioner can see that? 20 A: Oh, it's -- this is Highway 21, along 21 the bottom, and that one little area there, that's 22 Building 46. 23 Q: Okay. And the notation on the legend 24 indicates, See Melba George, Marsha -- Marcia Simon? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And at that point in time, your -- 2 your late mother would have been residing with you, or 3 you were residing with her. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Were you at the -- at the event when 6 -- when people moved into the barracks? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. Can you tell us anything about 9 that? 10 A: It was actually supposed to happen 11 the day before and something happened and it changed and 12 I was always concerned about my sons and I had -- my 13 stomach would be all knotted up and worried. 14 The next day, they met -- our people met 15 down at the meeting place which is on the beach about 16 half way in between the park and Port Franks. There's a 17 place known as the meeting place there. 18 So they met there prior to going up into 19 the barracks. 20 Q: If I could just interrupt you there, 21 Mrs. Simon. Do you -- is that indicated on the map that 22 is up on the screen behind you? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 A: So the park would be in here and Port 2 Franks would be over here. So it would be right -- right 3 around half way somewhere around there. 4 Q: And for the purposes of the record, 5 you're noting the northern -- the northernmost area 6 adjacent to the lake, approximately the middle of the -- 7 the reserve? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Thank you. 10 A: So that was known as the meeting 11 place. And that's where we went and met that morning and 12 the Elders were there and they were in agreement that 13 this was the time. I didn't argue with it. 14 That -- the few Elders we had, I 15 supported them as best I could in this -- uneasy as I 16 would and -- and I didn't know specifically what everyone 17 was going to do but I knew -- I was aware no one was 18 going to come in from the east so that's what I did. 19 I went back up to our campsite on our 20 grandparents' estate and I drove eastward into the 21 barracks from there, as far as I could go. They had 22 barricades set up with those tire slashers and things so 23 you couldn't drive over them. You could only go so far. 24 Others came in the main gate. Others came 25 in through the compound at the back and others came in


1 through the other road coming in from the cemetery area. 2 So people came in from all directions in there. 3 And I -- I didn't see where everyone else 4 went. I just went and did what I thought would be 5 helpful to our people. I, myself went over to -- on this 6 diagram, the -- the military changed their observation to 7 us into the -- used to be the old hospital area and that 8 building on the end. 9 And I knew, because they were always 10 parked around there then, whereas prior to that, they 11 used to be up at the intersection of Highway 21 and Army 12 Camp road, but they switched over to that easternmost end 13 which would be closest to where our encampments were. 14 So I went over there and everyone of them 15 that I saw I told them that I wanted you boys out of 16 here. And to the female officers and I told them, I want 17 you girls out of here as well. This is our territory. 18 Just said it calmly and told them what I wanted. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: Just for the purposes 20 of the record, Mr. Commissioner, the diagram is marked as 21 P-41 in these proceedings although it doesn't necessarily 22 have the same notations. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: What response, if any, did you


1 receive from your giving that advice to those 2 individuals? 3 A: Nothing. But I -- I saw that some of 4 them when they saw me coming, they would run and hide 5 behind the trucks and things, that I was just an old 6 woman going to town with my wish list. 7 Q: What happened after that? 8 A: Eventually there were mediators that 9 came in and, the first meeting that was set up to meet 10 with the Military about how we were going to resolve this 11 or co-exist peacefully, was actually in that Chapel, 12 Building 46. 13 And we met with the -- the head of the 14 Military, and at that point, he had tried to get us to 15 agree to staying in three (3) of the old, unheated 16 buildings. And, it was at that point that you couldn't 17 contain the Stony Pointers, they were all over the place. 18 Q: And what happened? 19 A: Later on, we heard they had decided, 20 we saw, in the barracks on the west end there, where a 21 lot of their officers lived, we saw them loading their 22 cars with -- carrying their personal possessions, loading 23 their cars, and we heard the announcements that they were 24 pulling out. 25 Q: Do you remember that date at all?


1 A: Pardon me? 2 Q: Do you remember the date? 3 A: Same date. 4 Q: The 29th of July? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. I understand that at some 7 point after that, you took on a role as an Information 8 Officer? 9 A: A reluctant one. I'm somebody that 10 values their privacy, and I have an aversion to having to 11 speak publicly, I do enough of it in front of the class, 12 in classroom. 13 During that transition period, we met 14 daily with the Military at ten o'clock each day, and they 15 designated certain Stony Pointers that learned the 16 operation of all the equipment within the camp, and the 17 care of the pump house, the -- and down in the park, 18 and... 19 I'm not sure what all, but that was all 20 laid out, who was going to do those -- those things. I 21 myself had to go every afternoon to Sarnia for 22 occupational therapy. I had suffered -- I shattered my 23 wrist and had had a bone graft and I was going through 24 intensive therapy to get my -- my hand working again. So 25 I was there for the mornings.


1 And, with all of the media coverage, some 2 of our older people just couldn't stand up to -- it was a 3 very emotional time for them, and they would just break 4 down when they would go to talk to the media. 5 So they had asked if I would help, and I - 6 - I felt with the investment they had given in me, to 7 teach me of what I know of our history and things, and 8 the education they helped me to acquire, I owed it to 9 them to help them at this time and I did, and I have been 10 since. 11 Q: All right. So the reluctant 12 Information Officer and today, reluctant Witness...? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You had participated then in speaking 15 tours, as I understand, speaking at various universities 16 and Church groups, -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- regarding the issues of Stony 19 Point? 20 A: And what had been done to us. 21 Q: In September of '95, you were 22 residing at Stony Point, and I think you had indicated 23 you maintained a residence at Kettle Point as well? 24 A: Yes, I still do. 25 Q: You were employed then at -- in


1 London? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: As a teacher? 4 A: Yes. Secondary school at that time. 5 Q: And the fall of 1995 in September, 6 and specifically on September the 6th of 1995, what can 7 you tell us about that day? 8 A: It was a very uneasy day, because we 9 saw the massive build-up of police -- police force, way 10 beyond anything I've ever, ever seen. And there were 11 rumours that they were going to come and put us out of 12 there. 13 And we anticipated they may come and 14 attack us in the barracks. We thought they would come 15 and attack us in the barracks. 16 Q: Were you aware at that point, Mrs. 17 Simon, that there were others who had moved into the 18 park? In fact just days earlier? 19 A: Yes. And I was very concerned and 20 upset about it. It went against what I wanted because we 21 were in utter chaos as it was. That's the way I felt 22 about what had just come down with moving into the 23 barracks. 24 We're a group of people that have not 25 known each other. We -- we need time to get to know one


1 another. Our Stony Point people had been dispersed and 2 had been living here and there and they were coming 3 together in here. And didn't really know one another. 4 And there were squabbles over the 5 buildings and things and people didn't like what was 6 assigned to them and there was -- there was a lot of 7 things to have to deal with there. And the media 8 coverage was phenomenal. The -- there was just a lot of 9 things that we weren't capably handling, let alone going 10 into the park. 11 And it was -- it was done before I had 12 anything to say in it. I met the people on our way down. 13 My mother and I were on our way down to tell them not -- 14 not to -- we couldn't handle it. But it was done. 15 Q: All right. Did you actually make it 16 down to the park? Your mother and you? 17 A: I think it was two (2) days before 18 they went in that Dudley -- before Dudley was shot. We - 19 - I would go in and out of there and I -- I -- as long as 20 I could see my sons and see that they were okay I -- I 21 would come back away. But I had -- I would always have 22 to go and check and see if they were okay. So I was -- 23 Q: Do you know how many, I'm sorry, go 24 ahead. 25 A: -- so I was in and out of there but I


1 didn't stay there. 2 Q: Do you know how many people might 3 have been down there in the -- in the times that you were 4 there? Approximately the September 4th? 5 A: It -- it varied. There were people 6 from -- some of them were -- it was like a happy feeling 7 with the -- many people were like wanting to celebrate. 8 That -- that kind of a feeling that you're back home. 9 Some of the older people from Kettle Point had been 10 brought in and gone in there and they would like to 11 visit. 12 So it varied all the time. It was -- 13 people were coming and going. 14 Q: And we've heard that the reason that 15 they had gone in there was -- that they were reclaiming a 16 burial ground. Do you have any comment on that? 17 A: That's about all that I know. Other 18 than that was our -- our Grandpa Kommanee's (phonetic) 19 place that -- he used to live in there. And so I didn't 20 doubt the -- when they said there were burials they -- I 21 didn't doubt it at all. 22 As a matter of fact in the '70's when they 23 were digging up building that Outer Drive, the road on 24 the eastern edge of Stony Point from Port Franks. 25 In Kettle Point that's -- there's --


1 there's a road that comes out to the highway from Port 2 Franks before you had to go up to Northville and drive 3 all through those winding roads. They built and it's 4 called Outer Drive. That was just a fairly new road that 5 was built and while they were building that they dug up 6 some burials as well. 7 And one of our old Elders in Kettle Point 8 came to me. At that time I was living very poorly in 9 this little old trailer, but she came and pleaded with me 10 to do something about it. She said they're digging up 11 the graves over there. 12 Q: And who was it that spoke to you? 13 A: That was Rachel Shawkens (phonetic). 14 She was the mother of the Chief at the time. And I 15 didn't know what to do. I had two (2) little boys and no 16 income. Didn't know what I could do. 17 Q: You say her son was the Chief? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Do you know whether she had called 20 upon him to do anything? 21 A: Our political leaders are always so 22 bogged down with -- they can barely cope with the things 23 that they have to and that's probably why she asked me to 24 try to do something. They were -- they're always on 25 overload.


1 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: I missed where the 2 roadway was. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm sorry, yeah. For 4 the record, I believe she had indicated on the -- 5 THE WITNESS: From Port Franks, and it's 6 called Outer Drive and it comes right up to Highway 21. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. So the 8 westernmost side of the -- easternmost side. I'm 9 directionally challenged, of the army base. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: I understand on the evening of 13 September 6th of '95 you were involved in -- in moving 14 some trailers? 15 A: I wanted to. I was so worried at 16 what was happening and I felt if I could get my trailer 17 down into the park and put it in between our people and 18 the police build up there that I -- I could sort of 19 separate the two (2) -- two (2) factors and I -- I got 20 Pierre, Dudley's brother to help me try and hitch up my 21 trailer that's -- was along Highway 21 and our campsite 22 to take it down and I had intended to go and stay there 23 until things cooled down. 24 And we tried and tried but it turned out 25 that it was stripped and I couldn't lift the trailer up


1 to even hook it up so I had to abandon it and leave it. 2 So we went back, Pierre and his little boy, Lakota were 3 with me. 4 Q: You went back to where? 5 A: Back to the main gate and to the 6 barracks. 7 Q: And where would that -- 8 A: And... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. DONALD WORME: It's the document 13 entitled P-41. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: Now we've all been to the army 19 barracks and I think we know what you're referring to, 20 but just for the sake of clarity, if you could hold that 21 diagram up and simply point it out to us. 22 A: That would be here. 23 Q: All right. I think that's clear to 24 Counsel? 25 A: The present gate --


1 Q: The main gate? 2 A: Into the barracks. 3 Q: And that's where you returned to with 4 Pierre? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And what happened after 7 that, Mrs. Simon? 8 A: Pierre had had his white car blocking 9 the one gate and our mother's blue Cavalier was across 10 the other and, again, I was concerned about my sons and I 11 wanted to go down and see how they were. 12 Q: All right. What time of the day on 13 September the 6th of 1995 was this? 14 A: I think it was -- must have been 15 getting around close to eleven o'clock. 16 Q: Okay, that's 11:00 in the p.m? 17 A: P.M. 18 Q: Right. Go ahead. 19 A: So I started out on that interior 20 access road that goes along here towards the park. It's 21 -- it runs parallel to Army Camp road. 22 Q: Inside -- inside the camp? 23 A: Yeah. That's why I call it an 24 interior access road. 25 Q: Thank you. Go ahead.


1 A: And I only got up -- only up unto the 2 top of that -- it's like a little grade. You could turn 3 in to go towards the cemetery, the burial grounds in 4 here, but you can also look down and I saw a stream of 5 lights coming. A number of vehicles coming. 6 The lead vehicle was yelling, Clear out, 7 don't go down there. Don't go down there, clear out, 8 clear out of the way. 9 And the man's voice was very frightening. 10 It was -- I knew something awful had happened from the 11 sound of his voice and I was all the more worried about 12 my sons. And in the third -- about the third car I 13 encountered my son Marlin, and he did stop to speak with 14 us, and said when I asked him what had happened, he said, 15 the cops have shot up everything. 16 And his face was just ashen. And I was 17 still very concerned about my younger son, and I wanted 18 to go down and still look for him and I was warned not 19 to. I had my mother with me, so I did turn around and go 20 back. 21 When we got back to the gate area, we saw 22 our cousin Roderick, sort of staggering around, it 23 seemed, or walking around like he was dazed, and I heard 24 him say, he's got a hole in him, and it was his son 25 huddled in the back of his car, and I noticed that


1 Pierre's car wasn't there anymore either, and I looked in 2 at his son, and I just got back in my car and I was 3 determined to go to the nearest payphone and call for 4 ambulances for whoever was shot. 5 I didn't know at that point who all -- I 6 was fearful that my younger son was also shot and lying 7 somewhere, I didn't know, no one could reassure me that 8 he was okay. 9 So I went out of the gate and slowly made 10 sure I stopped, there was no barricade there, I stopped, 11 there was police on that interior turn, to turn north to 12 go down towards the park, but there was no indication 13 that I needed to speak with anyone, so after I stopped, 14 signalled, I made a left-hand turn to go to Northville, 15 which I thought was the nearest payphone outside of 16 MacPherson's Restaurant. 17 And as I was turning the corner, my mother 18 start screaming in the car that they were going to shoot 19 us, and I didn't see anyone, I didn't know where these 20 people came from and I knew we needed help. So I told 21 her just to duck down and she was laying down in the 22 front of the car, while I proceeded to drive to 23 Northville, which is only about four (4) kilometres away, 24 I guess, that's a guess. 25 Q: Now, would that be -- that would be


1 west on Highway 21? 2 A: Yes. No, it's east, it's east. 3 Q: Sorry. I don't think I'm going to -- 4 toward Grand Bend? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: So the nearest little village is 8 Northville. And I knew there was a brightly lit 9 telephone on the corner of the store there, and that's 10 what I intended to go to, to call for ambulances for all 11 of those who may have been shot. 12 Q: Now you had mentioned that there had 13 been barricades that would be north of Highway 21 towards 14 the beach on Army Camp Road? 15 A: Yes, at times there were, but they 16 were gone. That was another fear, they were all so 17 brightly lit there, and then at a certain time, all those 18 lights went out as well, and the barricades were gone. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And there was also one right at the 21 intersection of Army Camp Road and Highway 21 and that 22 was gone. 23 Q: And when -- when were they there in 24 relation to when you left to go to use the telephone at 25 MacPherson's?


1 A: They weren't there at that time. 2 Q: And had they been there earlier, did 3 you notice them there? 4 A: Yes. Yes, they were. 5 Q: And, it might have been possible for 6 you to go to the Plaza at Kettle Point, there's payphones 7 there, we understand? 8 A: It seemed like I would have been 9 further away and there wasn't a guarantee that they would 10 be in working order. Quite often the things are 11 vandalized there. 12 Q: All right. So you decide to go to 13 MacPherson's, what would you -- 14 A: MacPherson's? 15 Q: I'm sorry...? 16 A: MacPherson's? 17 Q: MacPherson's. What rate of speed 18 were you travelling? 19 A: I made sure that I stopped and 20 signalled and remained within the speed limit. I didn't 21 want anyone to come chasing after me for any reason. I 22 didn't want to give them reason to follow me. 23 Q: Were -- was there anybody following 24 you? 25 A: Half way up the road someone came


1 chasing after me with the flashers going. 2 Q: Okay. Now you've indicated that 3 MacPherson's from -- from where you left the base is 4 about four (4) kilometres? Is that? 5 A: Hmm, hmm. 6 Q: Okay. So approximately two (2) 7 kilometres down the road you noticed that there's 8 somebody following you? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Emergency vehicles? 11 A: They were police vehicles with the 12 flashers going on the roof. The red flashers. 13 Q: And do you recall how many? 14 A: I think there were two (2). One 15 pulled up beside me and then it pulled back behind. So I 16 -- I kept on going. I had mixed feelings about whether 17 to turn to them for help since they had just shot up our 18 people. And they should have known enough to get help if 19 they had done that. 20 And it didn't appear that help was 21 forthcoming. I was fearful they wanted to stop me and 22 shoot me as well because there was no reason to stop me. 23 Q: And where was your mother at this 24 moment? 25 A: She was laying down in the front seat


1 beside me. 2 Q: All right. Go ahead. 3 A: So I proceeded to the pay phone. The 4 other thought I had was they'll see I'm not trying to run 5 away, that I'm going to be only going as far as that pay 6 phone. And I went there, pulled directly up to the pay 7 phone, got out and dialled "0" for the operator. 8 I -- when she came on the line I heard -- 9 he told her that you need to let the media know and we 10 need ambulances. Our people have been shot up at Stony 11 Point and they're going to shoot me too. Because by then 12 they were out of their cruisers standing behind them with 13 shotguns levelled at me. 14 Q: All right. What response did you get 15 if any, from the operator? 16 A: When I told her they were going to 17 shoot me too, she says I think you need to be in touch 18 with the police. And I told her it was the police who 19 were going to shoot me. 20 Q: Okay. What happened after that, Mrs. 21 Simon? 22 A: At one point they told me to get away 23 from the phone and I told them I was only trying to get 24 medical help ambulances for our people that had been 25 shot. I was worried about my son. I don't know if I


1 mentioned that my son could be lying somewhere dying. I 2 needed help, we needed medical help. 3 Q: Okay. Did you get any response from 4 the police? 5 A: Nothing. Other than they advanced -- 6 they hid behind the gas pumps with shotguns levelled and 7 kept advancing. And I figured they were going to shoot 8 us. And I was determined to try and at least make a last 9 ditch effort to have some -- someone alerted that there 10 was a cry for help there. 11 And I turned my back to them, all these 12 thoughts came through my head, I couldn't believe that I 13 had shotguns levelled at me for trying to call for 14 medical help. 15 And then I thought of other places in the 16 world that I heard of things happening. I thought of 17 Tiananmen Square and I thought of our Canadian Airborne 18 Regiment and I thought of Anna Mae Aquash and I turned my 19 back to them and offered them the back of my head if they 20 were going to shoot me, do it in the back of my head. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Not too long after that, after they 23 advanced, I had the phone violently jerked from me and I 24 remembered meeting the hood of my car and the ground. 25 And I could hear my mother yelling in the background.


1 She was trying to tell them about the bone graft I had 2 just had, that it was healing and they paid no attention. 3 Q: How many officers are we talking 4 about? 5 A: At first there were two (2) and I -- 6 I suspect there were four (4) but it seemed like there 7 were more afterwards, but I -- it's such a long time ago, 8 I don't remember the exact numbers now. 9 I remember being handcuffed with an 10 officer on my back, with those plastic cuffs and cutting 11 the circulation off in my hands. 12 Q: All right. You were on the hood of 13 your car? Is that what you've told us? 14 A: And then the ground. 15 Q: Okay. Did you have any personal 16 belongings with you? 17 A: I had my purse. I had my glasses on 18 which were knocked off and just left lying in the parking 19 lot. At that time it was a gravel parking lot. And they 20 even got into my purse and they were throwing the things 21 all over the parking lot. And I told them that wasn't 22 necessary. 23 Q: Okay. You've told us that you've 24 indicated that you were calling for medical attention. 25 A: I tried to.


1 Q: Were you provided any information or 2 advice that medical attention was already en route? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Do you have any recall of that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: I wouldn't have had to have called if 8 there was. 9 Q: And at that point, did you see what, 10 if anything, was going on with your mother? 11 A: After I was in an upright position, I 12 was aware of her right down on the ground trying to pray. 13 She had her medicines with her and they wouldn't allow 14 her to use them and they had shotguns levelled right at 15 her head, yelling at her to put her hands in the air and 16 she was pleading that she couldn't because she had 17 arthritis. 18 And I thought they were going to blow her 19 away and I pleaded with them. I said, Leave her alone. 20 She's been just riding with me. She didn't do anything 21 wrong. 22 I asked them if that's how they were 23 trained to treat old, grey-haired widows and they seemed 24 to calm down a little. They couldn't answer that 25 question.


1 And they decided they would try to take 2 her home but they were arresting me, shoving me around, 3 putting me in the cruiser and I told my mother to call 4 Dan Smoke and Jean Coney (phonetic)and to call the 5 Department Head where I worked to arrange a supply 6 teacher for me. We're supposed to do that ourselves if 7 we can't make it into work. 8 And apparently she did when she got to her 9 place at Kettle Point. She was put into the back of a 10 cruiser and they promised they would take her home. They 11 didn't know what to do with her. 12 There was absolutely no reason for them to 13 arrest her, or me for that matter and they never informed 14 me what they were doing with us. I was never informed as 15 to why they had to almost shoot us. 16 Q: You -- you indicated two (2) names, 17 Dan Smoke and I'm sorry, I missed -- 18 A: Jean Coney. 19 Q: And who were these people? 20 A: They're -- Dan Coney is a respected 21 friend. He's a Healer. He's a TV personality, radio 22 personality. Has a radio show in London on native issues 23 out of Western -- out of the university. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Commissioner, what 25 we would propose to do, whether now or with your leave


1 after the break, that we have a recording of a 9-1-1 2 call, or at least portions thereof, a transcript has been 3 provided as well as a wave audio has been provided to all 4 Counsel. 5 And what we could do, we could have this 6 marked initially as an exhibit, we could play that, and 7 perhaps take a break, take our afternoon break, if that's 8 all right? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Play it 10 before or after the break? 11 MR. DONALD WORME: Before. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 We are only going to go to 3:30 today, so we are 14 getting... 15 THE REGISTRAR: It's P-48, Your Honour. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 P-48. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-48: Recording of a 9-1-1 call 20 received September 6, 1995. 21 22 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 23 24 MR. DONALD WORME: It might be 25 appropriate, Mr. Commissioner, if we could just perhaps


1 finish this before we do take a break, -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: -- there is a couple 4 of portions I wanted to have replayed. There's obviously 5 a great deal of activity, there seems to be several 6 different phone lines, and perhaps if we could play those 7 portions and to see if the witness can identify some of 8 the voices therein. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 10 11 (AUDIO TAPE RE-PLAYED) 12 13 THE WITNESS: That would be me telling 14 them to get their guns out of there. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: And this is the scene that you've 18 just described for us. There were guns levelled at your 19 -- at your head or at your -- your person? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: All right. Do you know how many 22 officers would have been in such position? 23 A: At least two (2). 24 25 (AUDIO TAPE RE-PLAYED)


1 A: So, by then I would have been on the 2 ground. 3 Q: Okay. 4 5 (AUDIO TAPE RE-PLAYED) 6 7 MR. DONALD WORME: I think we can take an 8 afternoon break if that's all right? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine with 10 you? 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 We'll take -- we want to take a shorter break so we can 14 get some more evidence in this afternoon. Well let's -- 15 let's see how it goes. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 17 for ten (10) minutes. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 2:45 p.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 3:05 p.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 25 Commissioner, before I forget, I should ask that the


1 Exhibit Book that I've left with your Registrar, be 2 marked as the next exhibit in this. I believe that to be 3 P-49? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-49, Your Honour. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-49. Thank 6 you. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-49: Book of documents for Marcia 9 Simon 10 11 MR. DONALD WORME: I might also say just 12 before I carry on here, that Mr. Millar, our lead 13 Counsel, has suggested that he will be creating an 14 electronic version of all of the exhibits and will be 15 circulating that to all -- exhibit list, pardon me, and 16 will be circulating that to all Counsel at the suggestion 17 of Mr. Henderson. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: Mrs. Simon, you have just described 22 for us some of the events that we heard on -- or some of 23 the particulars of the 9-1-1 recording or portions that 24 we had just heard. You had told us that you had been 25 arrested. Your mother was transported home, we


1 understand. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: We specifically requested that they 5 take her to Kettle Point so she could use her phone 6 there. We -- were living in the chapel in -- in Stony 7 Point. 8 Q: Good. That's the question I was 9 going to ask you -- 10 A: Oh -- 11 Q: -- whether it was back to Stony Point 12 or to your other residence at Kettle Point. 13 A: Yeah, we -- we had thought since 14 there was a phone there, she could call -- make those 15 phone calls. We had no phones in Stony Point. We've 16 been denied to this day to have telephone service there. 17 Q: All right. And you did indicate to 18 us as well, did you not, that you had asked your mother 19 to phone, besides these media people -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- your supervisor? All right. 22 A: Yes. If we're going to be away, it's 23 our responsibility to arrange our own supply teachers and 24 I knew I wouldn't be able to do that wherever they were 25 going to take me.


1 Q: All right. And where did they take 2 you? 3 A: I was put into a cruiser there and 4 went as far as Ravenswood. And I was transferred into a 5 paddy-wagon in Ravenswood and then I was transported into 6 Forest and taken into the garage attached to the police 7 station there. 8 I -- I guess that's where they had their 9 headquarters set up, in the garage part. 10 Q: Okay. Just before we get there, 11 you've indicated that firstly, your glasses and -- and 12 purse contents were back at MacPherson. Is that -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Those were not collected at that 15 point? 16 A: No. So, I couldn't see too well, 17 things in the distance. My glasses were left on that 18 parking lot. 19 Q: I see. You were told that you were 20 not -- or you told us, rather, that you were not advised 21 of the reason for your arrest? 22 A: No. I have never been to this day. 23 Q: Okay. That's the next question I was 24 going to ask you. When you were transferred to another 25 vehicle at Ravenswood you were not advised at that point,


1 either? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You were eventually allowed to make a 4 telephone call, we understand? 5 A: Not -- really -- they lined up 6 someone on the phone for me later on -- about some time I 7 was in the gaol cell after someone came and looked at me 8 in the wee hours of the morning. 9 Q: And who was that someone? 10 A: I -- I don't know. There was a woman 11 with a red dress on that came in and looked in on me and 12 I wondered why she was looking at me and she said -- she 13 -- she explained. She said, I'm just checking on you to 14 make sure you're all right. 15 And I said, no, I'm not all right. I 16 thought I was at least supposed to have a phone call. 17 And she seemed surprised that I hadn't had one at that 18 point. But I didn't know who to call. I couldn't think 19 of anyone at -- at first and -- and I -- I thought we 20 have a cousin, Spike -- Ron George, that's a lawyer. 21 And she said, well, I know for a fact he's 22 not home, because he just left here to go to the hospital 23 in Strathroy. And I asked if maybe they could put me 24 through to him there. Eventually they did -- they did 25 put me through to him and I spoke with him and I spoke


1 with him. 2 Q: And besides being a lawyer, your 3 cousin Ron George is also an OPP inspector? 4 A: I don't think he was at that time. I 5 don't know. 6 Q: I see. Approximately how long after 7 your detention at the Forest Detachment were you allowed 8 to make a phone call? 9 A: It was quite some time because I -- I 10 was in -- in the garage part for a while and they had 11 taken mug shots of me and removed my -- some of my 12 clothes and things. I -- they took my shoes and socks 13 and I had to walk around on the cold cement floor and 14 they took my jacket that I was wearing. I -- 15 Q: What about the jacket you were 16 wearing? 17 A: It's a military coloured jacket that 18 was left in some of the bins that -- and it was cotton, 19 that -- the double band of cotton was -- help me to ease 20 the ache in my -- in my wrist in the evenings, when the 21 cool air would hit it and it -- it -- it was one of the 22 old military jackets that was left in those bins in 23 there. 24 Q: All right. Did you ever receive that 25 back?


1 A: No. No. While I was standing with 2 my back to -- to the people there, someone came up and 3 hit me in the shoulder and was very angry that I'd had a 4 jacket like that and told me I could be charged for 5 impersonating a military officer. 6 Q: You eventually did get to speak to 7 Ron George and what, if anything, did he tell you? 8 A: I just forget exactly what all was 9 said, but -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me -- 11 MR. DONALD WORME: Sorry. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that -- 13 is that -- 14 MR. DONALD WORME: Just let me interrupt 15 you -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Has that got 17 something to do with a solicitor/client privilege? No? 18 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm sorry, Mr. 19 Commissioner. That's -- that's right. What I was going 20 to ask and I simply meant to ask her if she had informed 21 him or if she was informed, rather, about what had gone 22 on at Strathroy hospital and anything in relation to your 23 son Kevin? 24 Thank you for that, Mr. Commissioner. 25 THE WITNESS: That's what my main concern


1 was that I basically didn't know if there were any 2 charges laid on me or anything that -- I still hadn't 3 been told but I had that very great fear that my son had 4 been one of those that was shot and was lying somewhere, 5 dying. 6 And I -- I knew from what I'd been hearing 7 in the garage there, that someone had been shot and was 8 in a bad way and I asked if Kevin was one of the ones 9 that was taken into the hospital. 10 I asked who had died and he said it was 11 Dudley. And I asked how Kevin -- Kevin was there and he 12 said, no, he wasn't one of the ones brought in. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: All right. You had eventually got to 16 your home in Kettle Point. When was that and how did you 17 get there? 18 A: I was in a jail cell for the better 19 part of the night and at -- at some point in the wee 20 hours -- I couldn't see the clocks, because my glasses 21 were in that parking lot but in the wee hours of the 22 morning they suddenly came and told me I was being 23 released and -- and who to call. 24 And I -- I'd given my mother's number but 25 they -- they couldn't get through. They -- apparently


1 someone kept answering saying there was no one there by 2 that name. So they eventually made arrangements to take 3 me somewhere and they didn't tell me. 4 I was loaded into a cruiser with two (2) 5 officers and then drove all around to the back roads and 6 I was really fearful for my life, that I was going to be 7 executed somewhere. 8 But they eventually came up on Lake Shore 9 and stopped at Indian Hills Golf Course and they still 10 wouldn't let me go. I wanted to walk home from the 11 police station. I'm a very capable walker, I could have 12 easily walked it but they wouldn't let me. 13 And it was the same thing at the Golf 14 Course. I mean, I had a brother that lived across the 15 road, but they wouldn't let me go. And I thought about 16 just trying to get out of there and they said I would be 17 charged with escaping custody if I tried that. 18 So I sat there. Eventually two (2) 19 officers from Kettle Point came in an unmarked car and 20 took me to my mother's place. 21 Q: One of those officers was Miles 22 Bressette? 23 A: And I believe Wally Kasnowski 24 (phonetic). 25 Q: Okay. And on arriving at your home


1 on the 7th of September -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- what -- what did you do at that 4 point? 5 A: I was relieved to find my mother 6 there and she was okay. She had my niece, Leanne, my 7 brother Warren's daughter was with her and he -- and she 8 had his white Jeep Cherokee, and we tried to find a way 9 back to Northville to recover my personal things that 10 were thrown all over the place and my car. 11 Q: Were you able to do that? 12 A: Yeah. We -- we knew there were road 13 blocks on all them, so we went through all the back roads 14 and came up across from MacPherson's and they allowed me 15 to -- and I said I just needed to get my -- my things 16 there and they allowed -- they allowed me to go and do 17 that. 18 At the intersection we encountered a -- a 19 reporter already there from Toronto. So we brought her 20 along with us too, figured that it was one way of getting 21 our story out. 22 Q: And as a result of this, did you 23 sustain any injuries? 24 A: I -- I was all bruised up on my -- my 25 arms and -- and my hands were numb from the circulation


1 being cut off -- 2 Q: If you can just look -- 3 A: -- and my -- 4 Q: -- in the Exhibit Book in front of 5 you, and it's also displayed on the screen; that is you? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Right. And you are holding what 8 appears to be, perhaps a chequebook up against your right 9 arm? 10 A: It's a calendar -- 11 Q: A calendar? 12 A: -- it's a little pocket calendar to 13 try to show the date and -- 14 Q: I see. 15 A: -- and that was taken by my brother, 16 Graham. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MR. DONALD WORME: The question that Ms. 21 Jones had inquired, Mr. Commissioner, is where these 22 pictures came from. They're -- they're evidently not in 23 the book. I understood that they were sent out by way of 24 electronic version via e-mail last week. 25 Now, if I'm mistaken on that -- I don't


1 see any agreement on this. I think perhaps rather than - 2 - rather than going through the pictures, what we will 3 do, is I will discontinue this line of -- we can do one 4 (1) of two (2) things, I mean, I can either proceed with 5 this line of questioning and -- and send them out later 6 today, or tomorrow, or alternatively I can discontinue 7 this line of questioning until we have provided these 8 photos to all Counsel. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I gather 10 that Counsel has asked who took the pictures. Do you 11 know who took the pictures? 12 MR. DONALD WORME: They hadn't asked that 13 yet, but the Witness can certainly advise us. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 16 can't hear you when you are not on the mike. I'm sorry 17 to make you come all the way up. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, the 19 question I had asked Mr. Worme was, he had indicated that 20 these were in the Briefs and they're not. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I see. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: We haven't seen them. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, that -- 24 MS. KAREN JONES: And so, I -- I was 25 wondering if you could clarify for us where they came


1 from, i.e. had the Commission sent them out? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh. Okay. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: And if so, how could we 4 get a copy? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 6 So, I misunderstood what her question was. So, what are 7 you suggesting, Mr. Worme? 8 MR. DONALD WORME: We can do one (1) of 9 two (2) things: We can either leave this line and 10 there's, I think, about five (5) pictures that I would 11 ask her to identify and just what they're about. 12 We would provide these to all Counsel and 13 we would undertake to do that either later today or 14 tomorrow, so that they would have those available for the 15 purposes of their cross-examination. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does that 17 alternative seem acceptable? Yes? I don't see any 18 negative looks. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, why 21 don't you do that. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: And I thank Counsel 23 for their indulgence and regret that we hadn't provided 24 these, as I thought we did. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I take it


1 there are other Counsel who didn't receive them as well, 2 not just Ms. Jones. Yes. Everybody is nodding in the 3 affirmative, so somehow they didn't -- they didn't get 4 them so. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: And regrettably that 6 is -- that is my responsibility. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 8 just carry on. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: And I'll make sure 10 that that's done. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: The next photograph, that is the 14 second photograph. You're pointing again to the inside 15 of your right bicep? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: It would -- there would appear to be 18 some markings on your arm? 19 A: The bruising. That's also -- 20 Q: It would appear to be the same thing 21 is it? 22 A: That's also the same -- same hand 23 where I was recovering with the bone graft in the wrist. 24 Q: The next photograph -- I gather 25 you're showing the date on the --


1 A: I'm trying to. Doesn't come through 2 here very well. And these are the same clothes that I 3 had on when I was arrested. This was just later on in 4 the morning after I got home in the daylight hours. 5 Q: Absent of course, the jacket that you 6 had taken on you? 7 A: Yeah. Minus my jacket. 8 Q: And the next photograph I gather is 9 the same thing although a little closer? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the last photograph in this 12 bunch, what can you tell us about that? 13 A: I don't know -- I just look pretty 14 haggard. 15 Q: In the period following that event, 16 Mrs. Simon, did you suffer any physical -- any physical 17 consequences as a result of that? 18 A: I -- I suffered from a period of time 19 with excruciating pain in the right groin and I don't 20 know whether it was like a pinched nerve in my back that 21 -- I was very reluctant to go anywhere for help but 22 eventually I saw a doctor in London that just called 23 sciatica. I think that sort of is -- is another term for 24 the same thing. 25 And I just had to rest -- rest my back for


1 an extended period of time with my knees up and give it 2 time to heal. I -- I tried to carry on working and I 3 wasn't able to hang onto things very well because I had 4 prior to that already just being going through 5 occupational therapy to get the hand working. 6 And that aggravated it and I had to start 7 back over again with getting back up to where I was prior 8 to this in terms of what I could do with the range and 9 the exercises I did. 10 Q: And so your teaching position in 11 London, what became of that? 12 A: I -- I found it very difficult to 13 cope with the pain and the school I was at has multi 14 levels where -- it's actually the old Beale Secondary 15 School (phonetic) and you had to go up and downstairs 16 carrying your things and I found that very, very 17 difficult in addition to parking across the 18 -- the football field and I resigned. 19 The other thing that happened was that we 20 were denied the services of counselling and support that 21 way. That -- that was turned down for us. That -- 22 whenever -- there's suppose to be a system for whenever a 23 tragic event happens where -- that will kick in and 24 provide support to the people affected. And that was 25 denied to us.


1 Q: This was through the school is it? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I see. 4 A: And I was very upset. We were not 5 suppose to even talk about it and yet I had my students 6 coming to the door concerned about my well being. They'd 7 seen on the news where I'd been put in jail and they were 8 horrified. And horrified at hearing of the death of one 9 of our people in -- in this way. 10 And it was very difficult to cope and 11 working in a non supportive atmosphere. I resigned for 12 the end of the year. 13 Q: All right. And I've asked you about 14 the physical impacts of this event. What about emotional 15 impacts? 16 A: Well you can still see how difficult 17 it is to talk about that night and it was a long time 18 before I felt safe enough to even come back into the town 19 of Forest. Memories of how I was used in that garage at 20 the police station I don't think will ever go away, that 21 night, at Northville. 22 When I see policemen coming I -- I really 23 have a difficult time with that and I'm working on it. I 24 have -- I just had a session last night with my 25 counsellor to help me, this many years later, where I am


1 undergoing counselling to try to cope and I'm getting 2 better. I can come into Forest without feeling 3 terrorized. 4 It's taking time. It's -- 5 Q: I think those are all the questions I 6 have, Mrs. Simon, so thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. I noticed that it's 3:30 now. We're not 9 going to start cross-examination at 3:30. We're going to 10 adjourn for the day but I would like to have, as usual, 11 an indication of who's expecting to cross-examine and how 12 long they're expecting to take. 13 Could I trouble you to please give me that 14 indication? 15 Mr. Ross, on behalf of Aazhoodena, how 16 long do you think you might be? 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Maximum half an hour. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Half an 19 hour. Not Mr. Orkin or you're -- on behalf of Mr. Orkin. 20 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Vilko Zbogar, for the 21 estate of Dudley George and the George family group. We 22 should be fifteen (15) to -- fifteen (15) minutes to half 23 an hour. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 25 minutes to half an hour. Mr. Rosenthal...?


1 Oh, I'm sorry, she's coming. She's on her 2 way up here, okay. 3 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: We've got a bit of 4 a queue. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we'll 6 jump around and on behalf of Premier Harris? 7 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: Yes, ten (10) to 8 fifteen (15) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) to 10 fifteen (15) minutes. Mr. Henderson...? 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Possibly five (5) 12 minutes, Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We could do 14 you right now. Five (5) minutes. Yes, on behalf of the 15 OPP -- 16 MS. KAREN JONES: OPPA. Two (2) to three 17 (3) hours. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2) to 19 three (3) hours? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: We represent Ms. 22 Simon so we'll be going at the end. It would be hard for 23 me to say how long. Perhaps an hour. Depends what 24 happens in cross-examination. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Just


1 -- yes, Mr. Eylofson? 2 MR. BRIAN EYLOFSON: Perhaps half an hour 3 for Aboriginal Legal Services. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 5 Myrka? 6 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Nothing on behalf of 7 Ontario. I'm here on behalf of Mr. O'Marra who extends 8 his apologies because he had to leave for a prior 9 commitment. So I speak on his behalf and I anticipate 10 approximately ten (10) minutes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much, Mr. Myrka. It's possible that we'll get 13 through it in one (1) day when we come back. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: I was simply going to 15 indicate, Mr. Commissioner, that there is also an 16 outstanding Motion to be heard. It had initially been 17 scheduled for the 27th. As I understand, we would 18 complete the cross-examination of this witness before Mr. 19 Horton's Motion is heard. 20 MR. MATTHEW HORNER: Yes. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 23 understanding, that's fine. So we will adjourn now and 24 reconvene at 10:30 on Monday, September 27th to complete 25 Mrs. Simon's evidence and then hear the Motion. Thank


1 you all very much. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, 3 Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's been a 5 long day. Thank you all. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 7 adjourned until Monday, September 27th at 10:30 a.m. 8 9 --- Upon adjourning at 3:30 p.m. 10 11 Certified Correct 12 13 14 15 16 _________________________ 17 Wendy Warnock 18 Court Reporter 19 20 21 22 23 24 25