1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 September 22nd, 2005 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 16 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 Kevin Scullion ) 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 15 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 16 17 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 18 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 19 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 20 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 15 16 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) (np) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 BRUCE ELIJAH, Resumed 6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 9 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 66 8 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 73 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 76 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-734 Document Number 4000328. Globe and 4 Mail article by Peter Moon, "Oneida 5 Chiefs Begin Oka-Like talks to diffuse 6 tension at Ipperwash - Violent episodes 7 mar original occupation of Military Camp" 8 July 15/'95. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 10:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We'll be continuing 11 with the cross-examination today of Bruce Elijah. You'll 12 recall that we didn't complete the cross-examination back 13 in March. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I do 15 recall. Good morning, Mr. Roland. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Good morning, Mr. 17 Commissioner. 18 Good morning, Mr. Elijah. 19 20 BRUCE ELIJAH, Resumed; 21 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Elijah, let me pick 23 up where we left off on March 9. Although I want to deal 24 with one housekeeping matter. 25 I'd like to put in as an exhibit the


1 article in the Globe and Mail by Peter Moon, dated July 2 15 '95, that was read from by Ms. Vella when she did her 3 examination-in-chief and was acknowledged from the parts 4 that were read as accurate reflection of the situation by 5 the witness at the time that he first met with the 6 Military at the Base to conduct the cultural sensitivity 7 session. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Or cultural awareness 10 session. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's dated 12 July 15, '95 and the exhibit number? I'm sorry I didn't 13 get the -- 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-734. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-734. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-734: Document Number 4000328. 18 Globe and Mail article by 19 Peter Moon, "Oneida Chiefs 20 Begin Oka-Like talks to 21 diffuse tension at Ipperwash 22 - Violent episodes mar 23 original occupation of 24 Military Camp" July 15/'95. 25


1 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: Mr. Elijah, let me remind you of that 3 so that we can contextualize the next bid of questions 4 that I'm going to ask you around Exhibit P-283. I see 5 that you have your binder of documents in front of you. 6 That would be at, I believe, your Tab 43. I'm going to 7 take you to that document. 8 Before I do, the passage that Ms. Vella 9 referred you to from the Peter Moon article that we've 10 just put in as an exhibit had it that: 11 "Tensions in the area were escalating 12 to the point where they were about to 13 go out of control, there was a genuine 14 fear that what could happen here could 15 turn into something similar to Oka." 16 She read you that passage from the 17 newspaper and you agreed that that was the concern at the 18 time of the cross cultural training session that you 19 attended at the Military Base. 20 Do you recall that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then let me then if I could take 23 you to Exhibit P-283 at your Tab 43. This is a document 24 that appears to be authored by two (2) of the Military 25 personnel who were present at the Military facility at


1 the time of the cross-cultural training session. 2 It is dated July 17, 1995 and it speaks at 3 the top of page 3 to -- sorry, let's go back to the 4 bottom of page 2, the last two (2) lines. It reads: 5 "During the cross-cultural awareness 6 training Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah 7 offered to assist in alleviating 8 tension between the Stoney Point Group 9 and the Military with a view to 10 allowing the environmental assessment, 11 subsequent remedial action, and 12 eventual handover to the natives to 13 proceed." 14 It goes on: 15 "They clearly understood that the 16 principle impediment is the schism 17 between the Stoney Point Group and the 18 Kettle and Stony Point Band and the 19 behaviour of the Stoney Point Group." 20 Now, that records, it appears, what -- 21 both what you agreed to do, what the objectives were and 22 the context of those objectives that you understood was 23 the impediment between the Stoney Point Group and the 24 Kettle Point -- Kettle and Stony Point Band. 25 Now, first of all, do you agree that those


1 were the objectives that were put forward that you were - 2 - and Bob Antone were going to seek to advance; that is, 3 allowing an environmental assessment, allowing subsequent 4 remedial action, and allowing for the eventual handover 5 to the natives of the Camp to proceed? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And I gather you -- you 8 and Bob Antone also clearly understood that the principle 9 impediment was the schism between the Stoney Point Group 10 on the one (1) hand and the Kettle and Stony Point Band 11 on the other? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you further understood that 14 another problem was the behaviour of the Stoney Point 15 Group, or at least some of them, their behaviour as 16 occupiers as well; that that was perceived to be a 17 problem? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. Now, this document goes 20 on to indicate that... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And we've talked about this as well, 25 that the way in which you were going to -- you and Bob


1 Antone were going to try and achieve a mediated 2 resolution of the tension was with a meeting on August 3 26th, referred to -- you'll see in this document we're 4 still on page 3 as a traditional native meeting, a 5 circle, on August 26th and at a neutral site. 6 And I think we've already heard from you 7 that that was going to be at the Oneida -- at Oneida. 8 That was the plan at least; is that right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And we see the people listed in the 11 next page who were -- who were going to be invited to 12 attend that, either representatives or individuals 13 invited to attend that circle meeting to try and resolve 14 these issues and -- and achieve the objectives that 15 you've agreed were the objectives you were, on behalf of 16 the Military, going to try and achieve, right? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: All right. Now, at the same time 19 this document refers, as well, to the removal of physical 20 assets from the Camp. If you turn over to page 5 and 21 page 6, it starts at the bottom of page 5, there's a 22 reference to the physical assets, the Military assets, 23 that were at the Camp. And on page 6... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: At page 6, the removal of those 2 assets. And it indicates that work is progressing more 3 slowly than anticipated in the removal. You'll see that 4 at item 7, about seven (7) lines down. 5 "Most buildings have now been cleared, 6 but approximately fifteen (15) tractor 7 trailer loads of stores are awaiting 8 shipment from the collection point. 9 All recoverable assets less those being 10 used for Operation Maple should be out 11 by August 2. The removal of the 12 Operation Maple assets will require an 13 additional five (5) days work after 14 seven (7) days notice." 15 Do you see all that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, did you understand that at the 18 time that you were dealing with the Military and 19 particular Captain Smith, that they were in the process 20 of moving out the physical assets that could be taken 21 from the Camp, and that they were actually at that stage 22 collected some fifteen (15) tractor trailer loads to move 23 out? 24 A: I didn't know exactly on what day, 25 but I didn't know that there was talking about beginning


1 that process. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And did you understand from your 5 discussions with the Military, Captain Smith or others, 6 that the expectation was that the assets, apart from the 7 Operation Maple assets, were to be out of the Military 8 Base by August the 2nd? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Did you have any sense of what the 11 timing was at that stage? 12 A: I knew that it was in process and 13 there was talks about it but I didn't know on -- what the 14 date would be when they would be all set to go to remove 15 all of what was needed to be removed. 16 Q: I take it though you did know it was 17 imminent. It was going to happen -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- sooner rather than later? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. Then as I understand it, 22 following this meeting that you had with the Military and 23 following July 17th in particular, which is the date that 24 we -- that we see P-283 was prepared. 25 I gather you and Bob Antone met with the


1 Stoney Point Group, representatives of Kettle and Stoney 2 Point Band, in an attempt to arrange the -- a circle 3 meeting that was tentatively scheduled for August 26th? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: Right. Now, let me take you if I 6 could to Tab 3 in your binder, that's Exhibit P-272, and 7 it's a situation report dated July 26, '95. It's 8 numbered 23. 9 And you'll see, Mr. Elijah, that -- you go 10 to the last page. Actually it's two (2) pages if you go 11 to the second page, it appears to be authored by Captain 12 Smith himself, on the second page. 13 Do you see that? 14 A: Second last page? 15 Q: Sorry, the second page. Are you with 16 me? 17 Do you agree that that's -- are we on the 18 same document, the one that's authored by Captain Smith? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Sorry, sorry, if you could turn -- 23 sorry, maybe you're on the wrong document. It's Tab 3. 24 Tab 3. Sorry, I apologize. 25 A: Tab 3?


1 Q: Three (3), yeah. 2 A: Okay. Second page? 3 Q: Second page. You'll see that that's 4 authored by -- hope we're talking about the same 5 documents, authored by Captain Smith. 6 Do you see that he signed it? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And this is now nine (9) days 9 the -- his earlier report that we just looked at and I -- 10 I gather, Mr. Elijah, during that time you and Bob Antone 11 were at Stone -- at Camp Ipperwash and at the Kettle and 12 Stony Point Reserve and dealing with both parties to try 13 and move along this idea of having a meeting? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Now, had you informed 16 the Stoney Point Group about the Military's intentions 17 during that period of time? 18 You'd learned about their intentions from 19 the meeting we'd seen around July 16th, had you informed 20 the Stoney Point people of the Military's intentions as 21 you learned those intentions from the Military; in 22 particular, their intention to reduce their presence, to 23 remove property, and to leave the Base entirely after the 24 environmental cleanup had been completed? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: All right. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now, at this stage, as I understand 6 it, there were no more Military patrols of the Camp 7 Ipperwash property apart from patrols of the built-up 8 area and of the beach, that is the -- the beach part of 9 the Military property, that -- that the Military wasn't 10 patrolling the rest of the Camp at that stage? 11 A: I don't know. 12 Q: You don't know that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And you know that at this stage the 15 Military were either erecting or intending to erect signs 16 to keep campers off the Ipperwash Camp beach? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And at this stage as 19 well I take it you knew that the Military intended to 20 publish and distribute pamphlets to campers asking them 21 to remain or requesting that they remain off the Military 22 beach? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes. Now, Ms. Vella asked you about 25 three (3) meetings that you had in this period of time, I


1 assume it's this period of time, with Glenn George, 2 that's at the transcript page 80 and 81 of March 9th, 3 described as positive meetings by you? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I take it positive in the sense 6 that Glenn George to the extent that he represented the 7 Stoney Point Group was prepared to enter into the meeting 8 process that you were trying to put into place for August 9 the 26th? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And so that I gather the Stoney Point 12 Group at that stage or during this period of time remain 13 interested in attending such a native circle meeting. 14 But, I gather, the same wasn't so of Tom Bressette, the 15 Chief of the Kettle and Stoney Point band, that you 16 couldn't get a -- a commitment from him to participate in 17 such a meeting? 18 A: Yes. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And can you tell us from your 23 perspective why it is that Chief Bressette wasn't 24 prepared to engage in this native circle meeting process 25 to try and resolve the tensions?


1 A: Those dates -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 3 THE WITNESS: -- there was a lot of 4 things that was going on nationally. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 6 an objection, Mr. George? 7 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Well, I -- I don't 8 want the Witness to -- to speculate -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 10 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: -- on that point 11 so. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's asking 13 him from his perspective -- 14 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Okay. Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if he saw 16 or if he did anything or if he said anything to him. I 17 understand. 18 THE WITNESS: And it was the just dates, 19 too busy. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 22 Q: It was just too busy. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: It wasn't that you didn't understand, 25 that to do so Chief Bressette understood that he might be


1 acknowledging the validity of the Stoney Point Group in 2 participating in the turning over of the land in that 3 process? 4 A: No. 5 Q: That wasn't it? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And it was -- he was -- then 8 you understood that he was prepared to engage in this 9 process of meeting and trying to, with the Stoney Point 10 Group, the Military and the ones we see in the memo, but 11 that he simply didn't have time at that period, at that 12 point and time? 13 A: That's our understanding. 14 Q: Okay. And so how was it left with 15 him then in the context of getting together at some sort 16 of circle meeting? 17 Were you -- was he -- were you waiting to 18 hear from him when he could do it? 19 A: What we were waiting for was for 20 people to be designated, if not him, somebody from the 21 council. 22 Q: And so were you still then trying to 23 -- to arrange and continue with the proposed meeting of 24 August the 26th, but with some other people who could 25 represent the Kettle and Stoney Point Band?


1 A: That's right. 2 Q: All right. Let me just take you to 3 P-272. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Tab 3. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: That's Tab 3 of your -- of your 8 binder. We're already looking at it. And it says that, 9 you'll see at -- at the first page under the heading, 10 Native Elements 1C, starting at the second line. 11 "Native activity on the Military beach 12 in particular area GR228854 adjacent to 13 the Ipperwash Provincial Park has 14 become noticeably more aggressive." 15 Now, at about that time it's reporting for 16 the period July 24 and -- to 26, were you aware that 17 there was more aggressive Native activity by the -- by 18 the occupiers as described here? 19 It goes on to say: 20 "Military signs were knocked down and 21 burned. There was a Native party at 22 night with hand held air horns 23 disturbing campers and perhaps trying 24 incite a police response." 25 A: I wasn't aware of that.


1 Q: Were you aware of those activities 2 going on? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No. And so, I gather then, you don't 5 know what -- if Captain Smith's description is accurate, 6 what would have provoked these activities? 7 Was there anything that occurred that -- 8 that you were aware of at the time that could have 9 provoked these more aggressive activities? 10 A: No. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: He's answered. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 14 Q: No. Okay. Let me take you to page 2 15 of the same document. At the top under the heading, 16 Confidential, item C, it reads: 17 "Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah will meet 18 with Tom Bressette, 25/26 July, with a 19 view to convincing him to support the 20 meeting scheduled for August 26th." 21 Sorry, August 25th. Is it 'sponsor' or 22 'support', I don't know which it is. It's either 23 'sponsor' or 'support'. I guess it could be either. 24 Do you recall that, that there was an 25 issue at that stage of -- of getting Tom Bressette to


1 either support or sponsor the meeting? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And can you tell us about 4 that? What were you trying to achieve? 5 A: If I remember I didn't attend that 6 meeting, so I don't know. 7 Q: No, I -- what I'm talking about is 8 what you were trying to achieve, not the meeting with 9 Tom, but what -- Tom Bressette -- but what you and Bob 10 Antone were going to try to achieve with Tom Bressette, 11 and why this was going to be something that you had to 12 convince him of or persuade him or at least discuss with 13 him? 14 A: Discuss with him. 15 Q: I see. All right. You didn't, you 16 say, meet with him yourself -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- on -- on July 25th or 26th? 19 A: 25th. 20 Q: All right. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Now, we heard from Bob Antone, when 25 he came to testify on March the 10th of this year, that


1 he was aware that -- that Chief Bressette, Tom Bressette, 2 was resisting -- there was resistance to the subject 3 meeting, that is the August 26th meeting, and that he, 4 Bob Antone, was going to meet with him to try and 5 convince him to have the meeting. 6 Did you understand that from Bob Antone, 7 that -- that he -- when he met with Tom Bressette, or 8 before he met with Tom Bressette, that he thought that 9 there was resistance on Tom Bressette's part to having 10 such a meeting at all? 11 A: All I know is that in talking with 12 Bob that there was a concern and he was dealing with it. 13 So, other than that I don't know. 14 Q: Okay. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And did he -- did -- did you 19 understand from Mr. Antone what Tom Bressette's concern 20 was about having the meeting at all? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Now, we know the August 26th meeting 23 was off, it never occurred, right? 24 It couldn't get arranged, right? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Did you inform Captain Smith that you 2 couldn't arrange the meeting? 3 A: What we tried to do is to inform all 4 parties -- 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: -- if things happened or if it didn't 7 happen. 8 Q: And so when did you -- when did you 9 inform Captain Smith that you couldn't get the meeting 10 arranged? 11 A: Either it was on the 26th or the day 12 after. 13 Q: All right. And you said you 14 informed all parties. I take it you informed the Stoney 15 Point Group as well that you couldn't get the meeting 16 arranged? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: Yeah. And what did you give as the 19 explanation for not being able to do it, to Captain Smith 20 and to the Stoney Point Group? 21 A: If I remember is that I wasn't around 22 at that time. So, it was only after the fact that I was 23 informed of, you know, the events that took place. So, 24 other than that I don't know. 25 Q: So, you don't know what explanation


1 was given at that stage to either Captain Smith or the 2 Stoney Point Group? 3 A: All I know is that there was that 4 possibility of a meeting that was -- might happen later 5 on. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: That we were still pursuing, you 8 know, if that could be possible. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Can I take you to the Kettle and 13 Stony Point Band general -- Minutes of the General 14 Meeting that occurred on August 1st '95. I think it's 15 your Tab 8. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, Mr. 17 Roland, what tab is this at? 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 20 this at? 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: Tab 8. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't have 23 it at Tab 8, I don't think. Oh, I'm sorry, I do have it 24 at Tab 8. The heading looks different. It's a document 25 from the action but it is the meeting minutes. Tab 8.


1 MR. IAN ROLAND: I've asked -- are these 2 -- are these an exhibit? 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: They are an exhibit. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: These are Exhibit P-43. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-43. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 11 Q: Sir, I'm going to ask you to turn to 12 page 22 of those minutes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Are you at page 22? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yes. Okay if you look in the middle 19 of the page, what is reported is -- in these minutes is 20 what's said by Gladys Lunham at that meeting. 21 First of all, do you know Gladys Lunham or 22 did you know her? 23 A: No. 24 Q: I understand that she's -- we have 25 evidence she's an Elder, or was an Elder, from the Kettle


1 and Stony Point Band that she was actually or I think her 2 family were original Stoney Pointers. She's 3 unfortunately deceased. 4 But, I want to you part of what's recorded 5 that she said and ask you to comment. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 7 Scullion...? 8 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Before Mr. Roland 9 does that, perhaps he could set the stage and ask Mr. 10 Elijah if he was, in fact, in the vicinity at the time. 11 He's about to read about a report from somebody else who 12 is not available to testify in any way about something 13 that is alleged to be an activity of Mr. Elijah. 14 And it -- it hasn't been established that 15 he was in the area. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well -- this certainly - 17 - the report indicates he was in the area and I'm going 18 to ask him about it and if he -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If he 20 doesn't know -- 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- if his answer is 22 simply he wasn't there, then that's fine. But, I want to 23 put this to him to see if it refreshes his recollection 24 and what he says -- what his answer to this is because 25 he's identified by name.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 2 think you could do that but obviously he may not have 3 ever seen -- I don't know if he's seen this before. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, he's had this book 5 -- these docu -- tabs, sir, for months. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. If he 7 doesn't know anything about, he'll tell us. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: Yeah. Let me just read this to you 11 if I could and I will help you with the timing. You will 12 see about seven (7) lines down under Gladys Lunham's name 13 it begins, "Last Thursday". 14 Now, we know that that was July 27th '95 15 because these minutes are dated Tuesday, August the 1st. 16 And so that -- last Thursday would have been July 27th. 17 She -- she's recorded to have said: 18 "I went down to the beach and they told 19 me we didn't -- they didn't want me to 20 sit there. There was a man across from 21 me, a stranger, and I asked what he was 22 doing there. He said his name was 23 Bruce Elijah and he was hired by the 24 Kettle Point Band to talk to the 25 people. He said he was a shit


1 disturber. 2 I heard enough in a few minutes. He 3 was telling the people to go the Oka 4 way to settle things." 5 Now, let's start with that, Mr. Elijah. 6 Was it possible you were at the beach on July 27th? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I'm trying to remember. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I was at the beach but I don't know 15 whether it was on that day or not. 16 Q: All right. And now what do you say 17 about what's recorded from Gladys Lunham? 18 She says you identified yourself by name. 19 You said you were a shit disturber and you were advising 20 the people to go the Oka way. 21 Did you say that or words to that effect? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Do you recall at -- at any time when 24 you -- about this time at the beach, speaking with an 25 Elder, a female Elder?


1 A: No. 2 Q: No. And did you at any stage in this 3 describe yourself as a shit disturber or anything like 4 that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No. All right. And what did you 7 understand -- what do you understand is to, "go the Oka 8 way"? What do those words mean to you? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 10 think that's a good question. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, if you heard them, 12 what would you understand that to mean? 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, no. I don't think 14 that that's relevant at all. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that -- 16 it's not. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The context is someone 18 else's use of those words. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, it's not 20 a good question, Mr. Roland. I don't want you to ask 21 that question. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:


1 Q: Mr. Elijah, let me take you to your 2 evidence given on March the 9th about the advice that you 3 did give, you say you did give, to the occupiers and to 4 the -- to the Elders. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: This is before the occupation of the 9 barracks which we know occurred on July 29th. Yes, 10 sorry, page -- page 60. 11 A: Page 60 on -- 12 Q: Yes, page 60. No, sorry, it's the 13 transcript of evidence. I'm simply going to read it to 14 you. It's the evidence that you gave on March the 9th. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Page 60? 19 Q: Yeah, no. Do you -- you have that 20 evidence, do you? Yeah, page 60. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you -- starting at line 4,


1 "Q: And did you have any other advice 2 in terms of the conduct of the people 3 when they are..." 4 Sorry, let me start you back at page 59. 5 It's at line 16. We'll do this again, beginning at page 6 59, just up the page at line 16. 7 "Q: All right, you indicated that 8 there was a desire to understand how to 9 carry out an occupation in a peaceful 10 manner. What advice, then, did you 11 give in relation to how that might be 12 accomplished? 13 A: One of the grandmas had mentioned 14 that. She says, do we tell our sons, 15 our men to -- to go in and take the 16 land back? And I say, no that would be 17 the wrong move because if the men go 18 in, then the police would come in and 19 the Military will come in and they know 20 how to deal with men, you know, we'll 21 shoot them. 22 And I said the best way to do it to get 23 the grandmas and the children to do it, 24 I say, says they don't know how to deal 25 with that.


1 Q: And did you have any other advice 2 in terms of conduct of the people when 3 they are once there -- once they were 4 onto the land? 5 A: We had several meetings with them 6 that they had called us to sit in and 7 to ask us if we would come and say, 8 What is the next step, you know, to do, 9 yes. 10 Q: All right. And what steps did you 11 suggest? 12 A: What, again, we come back to, you 13 know, what is it that they want? You 14 know, the thing's that they've been 15 living on the land, you know, and the 16 surrounding area, designated area, 17 and -- 18 Q: Of the Camp Ipperwash? 19 A: Yeah, yeah. And so it was just a 20 matter of, you know, coming into the 21 Camp itself where the buildings are. 22 So -- 23 Q: Did you provide them with any 24 advice concerning whether or not there 25 should be firearms of any kind?


1 No. 2 Q: You didn't provide them with 3 advice or you didn't -- 4 A: We know -- what we did was we, as 5 negotiators, is that we hardly ever get 6 involved with where there's -- there's 7 guns or weapons involved. It just 8 doesn't make sense, you know, and 9 that's -- that's sort of how we -- how 10 we do things." 11 Now, I want to take you back to what 12 you've just testified to concerning what appears to be 13 tactical advice. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 18 Scullion? 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: My -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there a 21 problem? 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- my objection is 23 that he cut the answer in half. There's another half of 24 the answer there -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well --


1 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- and I just asked 2 him to read the rest of the answer -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Of the whole 4 answer -- 5 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- which isn't a 6 particular concern to Mr. Roland. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- or is he 8 -- does his cutting it in half put it out of context 9 or...? 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: No, not at all for my 11 purposes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we're-- 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm not -- but I'll read 14 it, I don't mind. 15 The answer goes on at the top of page 61 16 line 7: 17 "If in -- in a crisis situation where 18 there is -- then again how do we come 19 into, you know, to put the weapons down 20 because that doesn't make sense, you 21 know. Again, ours is to avoid 22 bloodshed." 23 Okay. Does that satisfy you? 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:


1 Q: Okay. What I want to do is take you 2 back to the answers you -- you gave to Ms. Vella about 3 your advice to the occupiers. And it seems you gave the 4 occupiers two (2) pieces of advice that I'm interested 5 in. 6 One (1) is you advised them what the next 7 step should be and that is to take over the barracks or 8 built-up area. 9 And we agree on that; that -- that's what 10 you've said? You gave them that advice as the next step? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Because that's how I read it. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: At -- at page 60 line 11: 17 "All right. And what steps did you 18 suggest? 19 [What] A: What again we come back to, 20 you know, what is it that they want? 21 You know, the thing's that they've been 22 living on the land, you know, and the 23 surrounding area, designated area and-- 24 Q: Of the Camp Ipperwash? 25 Yeah, yeah. And so it was just a


1 matter of, you know, coming into the 2 Camp itself where the buildings are." 3 Isn't that advising them that the next 4 step is to occupy the barracks, the built-up area? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: As far as I know is that they were 9 already on the land, so it was just a matter of moving to 10 the next stage. 11 Q: Yeah. And the next stage was 12 occupying the barracks, right? Am I right? Am I right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And you also gave advice on 15 how to do it? 16 A: I suggested. 17 Q: A suggestion or advice on how to do; 18 that is to do it -- get the grandmas and the children 19 rather than the men to occupy the barracks area? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, this advice, coming before the 22 occupation itself on July 29th, was telling the occupiers 23 that what they should do and how they should do it. 24 Isn't that, Mr. Elijah, a little 25 inconsistent with your role, as understood by at least


1 Captain Smith, that is to achieve the objectives we've 2 looked at which is to have a peaceful resolution of the - 3 - of the tension there and allow the Military to 4 withdraw? 5 A: That is a peaceful way. 6 Q: Well, it's inconsistent with what 7 Captain Smith thought you were doing presumably when you 8 met with him and developed this process. Isn't it -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 10 I don't know, we haven't any evidence on what Captain 11 Smith thought. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 14 Q: Well -- well, isn't it inconsistent, 15 Mr. Elijah, with what you represented was going to be 16 your role and your objective? 17 A: What we always -- or what I did or 18 what I have done in the past is that,+ again, how do you 19 avoid bloodshed? And they were going to do it sooner and 20 so mine was to avoid bloodshed. 21 Q: I understand that, and I don't 22 criticize that. I think that's terrific. But, what I 23 see in your answer is that you're advising them actually 24 of the next step. 25 A: Suggestion.


1 Q: Yes. And what I understood is that 2 you were, from the perspective of the Military, filling 3 the role as a negotiator to try and bring the parties 4 together at a peaceful meeting to resolve the issues into 5 an agreement that would allow the Military to itself 6 withdraw from the -- from the Base after the 7 environmental assessment and so on. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Well, this is actually advising them, 10 or suggesting them to occupy the barracks is -- is not 11 reaching an agreement. It's one (1) side taking action. 12 A: Again not knowing when this was going 13 to happen, I'm only -- that's all I can do is suggest. 14 Q: Did you tell Captain Smith that you'd 15 been asked these questions of advice and given the 16 suggestions that you gave? 17 Did you inform Captain Smith of that? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did you inform any other Military 20 officials of that? 21 A: No. He already knew. 22 Q: Why -- why didn't you? 23 A: I said they already knew. 24 Q: They knew that you had advised them? 25 A: No. They knew that they were going


1 to take over. 2 Q: But, they didn't know you'd given 3 this advice or suggestion? 4 A: No, no. 5 Q: By giving this advice and suggestion, 6 Mr. Elijah, I suggest to you that you were being more 7 than a negotiator, that you were actually seeking to 8 assist and advance the occupiers in their objective of 9 taking over the barracks area in the face of the -- at 10 least immediate opposition of the Military, weren't you? 11 A: What was the question again? 12 Q: I said you were more than simply a 13 negotiator, mediator, negotiator, you were -- you 14 actually had by giving these suggestions, you'd actually 15 taken sides in pushing the issue or suggesting that the 16 occupiers push the issue by themselves unilaterally 17 moving into the barracks. 18 A: In giving advice, that's something 19 that they're going to do anyways, whenever. Whether they 20 take my advice or not that's -- that's their business. 21 Q: Well, you -- you said in your 22 evidence they asked you what the next step was and you're 23 suggestion the next step was, occupy the barracks. 24 A: No, they were going to occupy it 25 anyways.


1 Q: Once the barracks are occupied on 2 July 29th, and we know you were called, and we'll get to 3 that in a moment, you were called by Captain Smith, but 4 once the occupation had occurred, thereafter, as I 5 understand it, then you became a representative of the 6 occupiers. You became a spokesperson for the occupiers. 7 A: Was that after the Military had 8 vacated? 9 Q: Had withdrawn. 10 A: Yes. It came to another level. 11 Q: Sorry. 12 A: It comes to another level. 13 Q: Yeah. And at that stage, you're 14 acting as a spokesperson for the occupiers and you're 15 providing them with assistance. 16 You went there, to the occupiers, to 17 determine if they needed food and you arranged for them 18 to have food? 19 A: Yes, yeah. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now let me take you to the occupation 24 itself. We know that you arrived on the evening of July 25 29th. If you can go to Tab 5 in the binder of documents


1 that you have in front of you, it's a situation report 26 2 dated July 30, '95, already marked as Exhibit P-275. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Mr. Elijah, let me just contextualize 7 some of this, I want -- before I ask you questions. 8 In your evidence on March 9th at page 9 89... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: What page is that again? 14 Q: Page -- sorry, 89. 15 A: 89, okay. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes, I got it. 20 Q: If you look at line 14, 21 "Q: All right. What -- what exactly 22 did you advise Captain Smith with 23 respect to the results of your 24 discussions [that's the discussions 25 with the occupiers].


1 A: What he wanted to know is that for 2 the safety of his men, was that to be 3 given that opportunity to be able to 4 carry out and to take, you know, 5 whatever was left was the safety and 6 that's what we did. You know, we -- we 7 informed the grandmas and the families 8 that, you know, could we just not 9 occupy or not go into the area of those 10 two (2) buildings by the gate." 11 Now, I gather what cap -- what you're 12 saying there is one of the concerns for Captain Smith at 13 that stage, they hadn't yet left, was the safety of his 14 men? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: If you turn to Exhibit 275, P-275, 21 this is the document we're looking at, at Tab 5, you will 22 see that Captain Smith, in this report on the third page 23 at the top, under the heading, "Confidential," indicates 24 in this report that you and Bob Antone arrived at 25 approximately 7:30.


1 I'm not concerned about the timing 2 particularly. I know your evidence was a little later 3 than that. And then he goes on: 4 "Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah conducted 5 extensive negotiations and determined 6 the following." 7 And stopping there, I gather you and Bob 8 Antone did conduct extensive negotiations, that is 9 discussions, with those occupiers that had occupied the 10 barracks? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yes. And he then lists, and you've 13 already agreed to point 1 in your evidence, that is the 14 Stoney Point group had no intention of leaving, and 15 you've agreed with us -- with Ms. Vella that that was one 16 (1) of the things you learned and told Captain Smith? 17 And you've agreed on item 3 that the 18 Kettle and Stoney Point band had no control at all over 19 the Stoney Point Group. You've agreed Ms. -- with Ms. 20 Vella that -- that you learned that and communicated that 21 to Ms. -- to Captain Smith? 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry. We should 23 go back to the transcript because my notes indicate that 24 Mr. Elijah indicated that he knew that to be a fact, that 25 he would not have communicated that to Ms. -- Captain


1 Smith. 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. Okay. 3 THE WITNESS: What page is that? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah. I think My 8 Friend... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It would appear that -- 13 that my notes are in error and that the transcript 14 indicates that it was conveyed. 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: The reference for that 16 is page 92 of the transcript. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: Okay. You did convey this 20 information to Captain Smith? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And I'll ask you to look down then at 25 'K'. You'll see under 'K' it says:


1 "At approximately 22:00 hours 2 information was received from the 3 Stoney Point Group leaders that many 4 more natives were about to come up to 5 Camp from the Military beach area. 6 They indicated that they had no control 7 over these natives." 8 Do you remember that? Do you remember 9 learning that from the leaders of the Stoney Point Group? 10 A: I don't remember. 11 Q: So did you -- do you remember 12 conveying that to Captain Smith? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. And under 'L': 15 "Throughout the evening the native 16 males became increasingly aggressive 17 and confrontational." 18 Does that accord with your assessment of 19 the situation? 20 Is that -- did you observe that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Then under 2(c) you'll see that 23 Captain Smith indicates that because the leaders don't 24 have any control over the majority of the occupiers and 25 the fact no one -- a number were beginning to drink


1 alcohol beverages, alcoholic beverages. 2 Do you recall that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Now, do you recall -- I take it you 5 don't recall one (1) way or the other whether that was 6 the case? 7 A: When Captain Smith called Bob, Bob 8 Antone, and then Bob told me that if I was available to 9 go with him to come in that evening to talk to Captain 10 Smith. 11 Captain Smith mentioned that there had 12 been people that had come up from the back and talked to 13 him. We -- we didn't see them. 14 Q: This is before you and Mr. Antone 15 arrived? 16 A: Apparently so. 17 Q: Okay. All right. And as far as you 18 were aware once you and Bob Antone had arrived, were you 19 the only two (2) that were communicating -- of the 20 natives that were communicating what was going on and 21 what the position of the occupiers were, to Captain 22 Smith, or were other people communicating with him as 23 well? 24 A: Not that we saw. It was just us two 25 (2).


1 Q: Just the two (2) of you? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. So any information he 4 obtained, he obtained from the two (2) of you? 5 A: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he 7 doesn't know that. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: As far as you know? 11 A: As far as I know. 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, Mr. Elijah, you, I gather, 17 carried on for some time after July 29th as a negotiator, 18 did you? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And how long did you carry on beyond 21 July 29th? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Two (2) to three (3) days.


1 Q: All right. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And at that stage, what were you 6 trying to achieve in your role as a negotiator in -- 7 after the occupation of the barracks? 8 A: It was, again, to get the people 9 help. For one thing is that they needed food and the 10 question of the electricity. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: Whether it was going to be turned off 13 or -- so that was another level. When I -- when I was 14 saying earlier that it came to another stage of helping - 15 - helping them out. 16 Q: And in the course of that, those two 17 (2) or three (3) days, I gather you also spoke with 18 members of the Kettle and Stony Point Band? 19 A: I hadn't at -- at that time, no. 20 Q: Not in those days? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No, all right. Did you understand, 23 Mr. Elijah, both before and after July 29th, that is in 24 the period of time leading up to the occupation of the 25 barracks and the period of time after the occupation of


1 the barracks, that at least some members of the Kettle 2 and Stony Point Band were concerned about the presence of 3 outsiders at the camp? 4 A: There was that, yeah. 5 Q: At page 179 of your -- of your 6 transcript, you're asked about -- about that concern and 7 you acknowledge you were -- you were aware of that. 8 And were you able to alleviate their 9 concerns in any way. What did you explain to them when 10 this issue arose and you said: 11 "I explained to them that if there was 12 going to be anybody of our peoples, 13 First Nation people from other 14 communities, that we would let them 15 know." 16 Sorry, page 179. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Which slide? 21 Q: It's at the top. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: First of all, Mr. Elijah, I gather


1 the "we" is you and Bob Antone, is it? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: So what was the question again? 6 Q: That, in your answer I -- you say: 7 "I explained to them [that is the 8 persons from Stoney Point or Kettle and 9 Stony Point] that if there was going to 10 be anybody of our peoples, First Nation 11 peoples, from other communities, that 12 we would let them know." 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the "we" I -- I assume, Mr. 15 Elijah, is you and Bob Antone; am I correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you were going to let, therefore, 18 members or representatives of the Kettle and Stony Point 19 Band know about the presence of outsiders to, at least, 20 alleviate their concerns about who was there, or at least 21 inform them, you may not alleviate their concerns, but 22 inform them of the outsiders that were there? 23 A: The people of Stoney Point knew, like 24 we -- we didn't know who -- who would be coming in. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 2 minute, Mr. Antone, Mr. Rosenthal has a -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 4 Commissioner, that's quite inaccurate portrayal of his 5 testimony. 6 With the concerns with the police, as you 7 can see, if you read the previous part, it wasn't the 8 Kettle and Stoney Point band council. If you read 9 beginning at line 22 of page 179: 10 "And in your discussions with the 11 police, did they -- did they raise 12 concerns with you over the presence of 13 so-called warriors as a policing 14 concern and..." 15 Sorry. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: I stand corrected. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay. I stand 19 corrected. I -- I was assuming it was the -- it was the 20 -- it was the concern of the Kettle and Stony Point, but 21 it -- My Friend is right, it -- it reads, "the police." 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: Did you inform the police? You said 25 you were -- in this answer you were going to inform the


1 police of the presence of outsiders; did you do that? 2 A: No, I didn't. 3 Q: And -- and did -- and is there some 4 reason why you didn't? 5 A: That wasn't my job. 6 Q: Well, in this answer you said you 7 were going to do it, that's -- it was part of -- 8 A: Who I was accountable was to the 9 people. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: So although you told the police you'd 14 inform them of outsiders are -- are you saying you had no 15 intention of doing that? 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry, I -- I'm 17 having great difficulty following this line of 18 questioning. My Friend's relying on an excerpt of the 19 cross-examination conducted by Ms. Esmonde and I'm trying 20 to see the -- if there's a context or a time frame with 21 respect to this testimony and I can't see it here and it 22 -- it's just a question about, in your discussions with 23 the police. 24 I don't know if this was meant to be 25 during the occupation of the Park, during the occupation


1 of the barracks, or during the occupation of the -- the 2 land. I just can't tell from this excerpt in the -- the 3 transcript and that may be why Mr. Elijah's having 4 difficulty understanding the context. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: All right. Well, do you recall -- 8 I'll help you with that, Mr. Elijah, do you recall at any 9 time informing the police that you would let them know 10 about the presence of outsiders? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Mr. Elijah, let me turn to another 17 topic. We're going to proceed in time to September 28th. 18 This is after the incident and while you're engaged in -- 19 in the activity of negotiating the situation after 20 September the 6th. 21 We heard evidence from Chief 22 Superintendent Coles that he met with you on September 23 28th, 1995. There was you and -- at a meeting with Jim 24 Tobias and Miles Bressette and Jim Potts and Mike Hudson 25 and that at that meeting he says you informed the


1 meeting, including Chief Coles, about a 12 gauge shotgun 2 and a single shot .22 and a peace pipe. 3 Stopping there, first, do you remember the 4 meeting in which you raised that -- the issue about those 5 three (3) items? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And this was the first 8 time, at least, Chief Superintendent Coles had heard 9 about those. 10 What did you tell him at that meeting 11 about those items? 12 A: That I had them. 13 Q: All right. And how did you come 14 into possession of them? 15 A: It was given to me the night before. 16 Q: All right. By who? 17 A: By one (1) of the security. 18 Q: One (1) of the security? Sorry, who 19 -- who are we talking about? Which security? 20 A: One (1) of the security. 21 Q: Which security? 22 A: I don't tell that part. 23 Q: So when you -- 24 A: One of my men. 25 Q: So when you -- when you say security,


1 are you referring to someone who is -- 2 A: My men. 3 Q: -- providing security at the camp? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: A Native security officer or person? 6 A: A person, yes. 7 Q: All right. So one of the security 8 persons at the camp the day before September 28th gave 9 you those three (3) items? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you don't recall who that was? 12 A: No I do know who it was. 13 Q: All right. So who was it? 14 A: I'm not going to tell you that. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 16 said it was somebody who worked for him. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm sorry? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 19 said it was somebody who worked for you. Is that what 20 you said? 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: All right. And why aren't you going 25 to tell us?


1 A: Because I decided not to. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it 3 relevant? I'm not sure -- the impression I had was 4 somebody who worked for him. But you may want to ask -- 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- him some 7 questions about it. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: Do you know where this person got 11 those three (3) items? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. Where did the person get those 14 three (3) items? 15 A: At the east side. We watched the car 16 the night before and there was occupants of that vehicle 17 that came onto the land -- 18 Q: When you say the land, are you 19 referring to Camp Ipperwash? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: -- and brought some items and 23 deposited in a bush close by. 24 Q: I see. 25 A: That was planted.


1 Q: I see. And were you able to identify 2 who those people were? 3 A: We gave the make of the vehicle to -- 4 to the peacekeepers, the Indian police and they said 5 they'd check into it. 6 Q: And by -- by that do you mean the -- 7 the police officers of the Kettle and Stoney Point? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And who there did you -- did 10 you give this information to; which officer or officers? 11 A: I can't remember. 12 Q: So I gather, Mr. Elijah, you weren't 13 able to identify who the people were in this vehicle? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And then what did you do with the 16 three (3) articles? 17 A: I had given the order to hand that 18 over to the police. 19 Q: I see. Well you've told us you took 20 possession of them. Did you then give them to someone 21 else to hand over? 22 A: Yes. Yeah. 23 Q: And can you tell us who you gave them 24 to, to hand over to the police? 25 A: I can't remember.


1 Q: Mr. Elijah, I'm going to ask you to 2 think back about this a little further if you can because 3 I think the evidence is going to show that those items 4 were turned over ten (10) days earlier, that is, you say 5 that it was -- it occurred -- or nine (9) days earlier. 6 You say it occurred on September 27th, the 7 day before the meeting with Chief Superintendent Cole but 8 I think the evidence is going to show that that -- that 9 they came into the possession of the police, the OPP, on 10 September the 18th, that is, nine (9) days earlier. 11 Now does that help you better remember how 12 this occurred? 13 A: No. 14 Q: It doesn't? 15 A: No. 16 Q: So the fact that it happened nine (9) 17 days earlier makes your account impossible. Do -- any 18 explanation for that? 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry but I think-- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 21 Vella. I'm not sure -- 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With all due respect, 23 My Friend premised that question was the fact that -- 24 that it came into the police possession. I don't know 25 that any findings of fact on that respect have been --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not a 2 fact yet. Yes. 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well... 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You said -- 5 yes. 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 9 Q: So if -- what you're saying, Mr. 10 Elijah, is if it -- if it turns out as I understand the 11 evidence will be that the items were turned over to the 12 OPP on September 18th, you have no explanation for how 13 that could have occurred? 14 A: It was turned over to them whatever 15 day it was. We had found it, like I say, the night 16 before and we turned it over the next day. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Whether it's the -- whatever date it 19 was. 20 Q: All right. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Mr. Elijah, after the incident of -- 25 on the evening or late hours of September the 6th, we


1 know from you that you came to the area on September the 2 7th and you established a security protocol on September 3 the 8th and 9th, you've told us that. 4 What do you mean by a security protocol? 5 What was it that you did in establishing a security 6 protocol? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Well everything was in chaos at that 11 time and my first thing that I did was to ask all parties 12 if -- if they wanted me to help in the process and they 13 said that they did. 14 And so the first thing that I did was ask 15 the police, the Provincial Police to put their security 16 or their roadblocks further back. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Yes, it's the first thing that we 19 did. And then to see what -- what was needed to do an 20 assessment and see what would be the next process. 21 Q: And did you, in terms of establishing 22 a security protocol, did you -- did you put in place 23 security for the native occupiers to keep secure the camp 24 and the Park? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Okay. And did that involve 2 organizing security patrols, for example? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yes. And security posts? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And we heard from Warren 7 George that he put in place in the sandy parking lot area 8 cement blocks and a sand pile. 9 When asked about that, he said it was 10 because the OPP or Military might return which, to me, 11 sounds like this was part of the security. 12 Were you involved in that decision to put 13 those cement blocks and that pile of sand there for 14 security purposes? 15 A: Some of those processes was that they 16 had informed me how the community was going to do what 17 they felt that they needed to do and that if it went 18 along -- along with my thinking, then I agreed to it, 19 that that would be the process. 20 Q: I see, so they -- they proposed to 21 you that they would do this as part of the security 22 measure -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- and you agreed? 25 A: Yeah.


1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: And having agreed to those security 5 measures, did you observe them being carried out? Did 6 you observe Warren George put the sand pile in place and 7 put the cement blocks in place? 8 A: I knew that there was someone doing 9 it, yes. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: To say specifically Warren, I can't 12 remember. 13 Q: Did you -- whoever it was, you 14 observed them do it, did you? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. And did you participate 17 in directing where they were to be put? 18 A: No, no. 19 Q: And dealing with the sand pile, tell 20 us what you observed. 21 How did that sand pile then get created? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I don't know.


1 Q: You don't remember? 2 A: No. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I want to 7 take a break sometime, a morning break. We've been going 8 an hour twenty (20) minutes, but I don't want to 9 interrupt you if you're close to being finished. 10 If you could give me some indication we 11 can decide when to break, Mr. Roland. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: Let me check. I -- we 13 can break now. I'll check my notes. I may have very 14 few, if any, questions, but I'll check my notes right 15 now. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So this 17 would be a good time to break -- 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you can 20 decide where you are. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 24 for fifteen (15) minutes. 25


1 --- Upon recessing at 11:21 a.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 11:38 a.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed, please be seated. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Commissioner, Mr. 10 Roland tells me that he is finished. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, okay. 12 Thank you, Mr. Roland. 13 And you're up next, Mr. Downard. 14 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 17 Q: Sir, my name's Peter Downard and I 18 act for the former Ontario Premier, Mike Harris, and I 19 just have a few questions for you this morning. 20 When Bob Antone testified here, he 21 described, in a -- a broad way, a number of instances of 22 the -- of what he said was the historical oppression of 23 native nations by non-native people and he criticized a 24 number of policies and institutions which he said had 25 oppressed and marginalised First Nations people.


1 And one institution that he expressed some 2 criticism about, although not -- not in a strong term or 3 strong terms as in other instances, was that -- the 4 media. And he expressed a concern that the media 5 exaggerates and sensationalises the truth and in 6 particular with respect to native protests. 7 He said that journalists have a tendency 8 to sensationalise events and he raised a concern whether 9 journalists may try to criminalize native protesters. 10 Now, that's all just background to the few 11 questions I have for you. 12 As I understand it, in 1995, you already 13 had a great deal of experience in dealing with First 14 Nations protests, correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And you had been in a 17 position of leadership in seeking to resolve a number of 18 protests in a peaceful way, for example, Oka? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And I take it that as 21 part of that experience, as at 1995, you were familiar 22 with media coverage of First Nations protests, such as 23 Oka? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And as at 1995, did you


1 have concerns about the media's treatment of First 2 Nations protests, generally? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: What were those concerns? 5 A: Pretty well what Bob alluded to. 6 During the Oka crisis, I -- I wasn't -- I didn't deal 7 with the media, that was not my job. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: But you would have observed the media 11 coverage at the time? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And you had concerns, for 14 example, about that media coverage? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Of the nature that Bob Antone 17 described? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And did your regard that, in 1995, as 20 a serious problem for First Nations people who were or, 21 in the future, would be engaged in protests, the way they 22 would be portrayed in the media? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And as I understand it, in -- and 25 certainly in July of 1995, you had several discussions


1 with Stoney Point people, Glenn George and others, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you had had some discussions with 4 Stoney people -- Stoney Point people, pardon me, from 5 time to time since they first went onto the land in 1993, 6 right? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Okay. And I'm not going to read back 9 your evidence to you, but you've told us before about a 10 number of the things that you talked to them about and 11 you said that they -- they looked to you for advice as to 12 what to do and what not to do with respect to their -- 13 their action in occupying the land, fair? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you described a number of 16 subjects that you spoke to them about. You previously 17 testified that one of your ground rules that there be no 18 fire arms. You -- we've heard your evidence about one 19 non-violent way to take over land would be to have the 20 grandmas and children involved. 21 And you testified before with respect to 22 the park, the notion of whether the Park was closed. And 23 what I'm just wondering about is in giving advice to the 24 Stoney Point people, from time to time, with respect to a 25 number of matters associated with what they were doing,


1 in occupying the lands. 2 Did you have any discussions with them or 3 expressed to them any concerns about how the media was 4 treating what they were doing or might treat what they 5 were doing in the future and how they might respond to 6 that? 7 A: Again what we try to do is to get 8 people in those communities to be able to deal with the 9 media. And -- because that's important because to have 10 control over who says and what is said is very important. 11 So we try as much as what we can to -- to caution them as 12 to what is going to be said and who is going to say that 13 to the media as to what, you know, whatever it is that 14 they're going to be projecting out there. 15 Q: And is -- is communication with the 16 media something that you encourage? 17 A: Always. 18 Q: All right. And why is that? 19 A: To give and to find people within the 20 media who's going to project that out. 21 Q: Project out? 22 A: Whatever it is that we're going to 23 say or the people are going to say. 24 Q: Accurate information as to what -- 25 A: Accurate information.


1 Q: Because -- and what's -- what is the 2 concern if that is not going to happen. If that does not 3 happen what -- what can be the problem? 4 A: We've seen in the past that, you 5 know, with the media, it's almost like you can't trust 6 them to, you know, for us to say anything because they 7 always change it around. 8 Q: Well is -- is that a concern you 9 expressed to the Stoney Point people? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do you recall having any 12 discussions with respect to that, in particular with any 13 of the Stoney Point people? 14 A: Other than that, no. 15 Q: Okay. Do you -- do you know whether 16 any such concern about whether one can trust the media, 17 played any part and how the Stoney Point people conducted 18 their occupation of -- of the Park and in particular 19 their communications or lack of communications with the 20 media during the early days of the occupation of the 21 Park? 22 A: All I did was bring that concern up 23 to them. As to dealing with the media, that was not my 24 thing. 25 Q: That was their decision?


1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. Thank you very much and those 3 are all my questions. 4 A: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Mr. Downard. 7 Is anybody -- any of the other parties 8 have any questions? I didn't think so but just -- no? 9 Well then Mr. Scullion...? 10 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 11 Commissioner. We don't have any re-examining questions 12 for Mr. Elijah. If I could just have a moment? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We've had 17 lots of days where things have taken a lot longer than we 18 expected. We've now had two (2) in a row where things 19 are shorter than we expected. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, I could try this 21 all the time, Commissioner -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 23 wouldn't -- 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- four (4) hours. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- ask you to


1 do that. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, okay. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not unless 4 you're going to sing and dance, then maybe we'll sit back 5 and watch. But other than that no, I think that -- have 6 you got some re-examination? 7 8 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: Just one thing. Mr. Elijah, do you 10 have anything else that you wish to add? 11 A: Yes. I guess -- I've been thinking 12 about this and I've had the opportunity since ten (10) 13 years ago and coming to, you know, understanding the 14 Inquiry was going to be -- was going to be happening. 15 It's -- it's -- I'm glad that it did because I think it's 16 one of the first few times that there's ever been to this 17 level. 18 We've always, in Indian country, myself 19 included, is that we're always looking for how to -- how 20 can we do this. How can we do this in a -- in a good way 21 to look into situations, crisis that -- that will happen 22 to our people. 23 Prior to this there was none. There was 24 never any Inquiries and for us, as a native people, we 25 looked at the justice, the judicial system in Canada as


1 very unfair to our people. 2 We were always, you know, I think steered 3 in the direction that, plead guilty and get it over and 4 done with. 5 Our beliefs and our teachings of justice 6 for all is different than what the Canadian law is. And 7 the judicial system in the Canadian law is that those who 8 have, and those who don't, that's what it is. 9 If you got the money, then you can pay the 10 highest lawyer and get away with it, even if you're 11 guilty. And we see that today, it exists today with the 12 multi-national corporations damaging and killing our 13 land. 14 He said if you got the money, you can get 15 away with it. And so we don't have the money. 16 What we have is our belief system and in 17 that belief system, with our culture, when we stand for 18 the rights of our people and when we take the position of 19 our lands it seems to me that the whole of Canada goes 20 against that. 21 They'll try every which way to prove that 22 we're wrong, to criminalize our beliefs to what it is of 23 our teachings. 24 And the history will show as this Inquiry 25 will, will show that I didn't pull the trigger.


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I thank you very much, 2 Mr. Elijah -- 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- for your statement 5 and I thank you for -- for sharing your time with us and 6 giving your testimony. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much, Mr. Elijah, for coming and giving us your 9 evidence and I know it was six (6) months in between. We 10 appreciate your coming back to finish. Thank you. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 12 13 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're now 16 going to adjourn and I guess we come back on Monday 17 morning at 10:30. Thank you all very much. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's right, thank you 19 Commissioner. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 21 adjourned until Monday, September 26th at 10:30 a.m. 22 23 --- Upon adjourning at 11:51 a.m. 24 25


1 2 3 4 Certified Correct 5 6 7 8 9 ________________________ 10 Dustin Warnock 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25