11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 September 21st, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Okin ) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) (np) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 CLIFFORD GEORGE, Resumed: 6 Continued Cross-Examination by Ian Roland 7 7 Cross-Examination by Jennifer McAleer 128 8 9 YVONNE BONNIE BRESSETTE, Sworn 10 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 136 11 12 13 Certificate of Transcript 188 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-41 Schematic Diagram of Military 4 Barracks Camp Ipperwash 49 5 P-42A Camera 1, September 06, '95 6 2:51:41 still photo of a male 7 person with a ponytail in 8 maintenance shed 119 9 P-42B Photo 897 September 18, '95 10 Cooey rifle turned over to OPP 11 found outside Mr. Bressette's 12 home in garbage 121 13 P-42C Sawed off shotgun with "Bastard 14 Blaster' written on it turned 15 over to OPP 126 16 P-43 Document Number 6000354 General 17 Band meeting minutes August 1st, 18 1995. 183 19 P-44 Extracts from 5th Estate October 20 17, 1989 187 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, Mr. Roland. Let's hope the equipment is all 8 working this morning. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, Mr. Commissioner, 10 I'm told it is. 11 12 CLIFFORD GEORGE, Resumed: 13 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Good morning. Good 15 morning, Mr. George. 16 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 17 18 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: Mr. George, before we adjourned 20 yesterday, I had started to ask you to look at a map of 21 the Ipperwash military reserve. We've marked it as P-40 22 in these Proceedings. 23 A: I have it here, sir. 24 Q: Commission Counsel Mr. Millar is going 25 to put this up on the screen as well for the assistance
81 of the participants. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 6 Q: Mr. George, I asked you yesterday if 7 you could map -- mark for us with a -- a red pen and an 8 "X" on the map that's in front of you, the location where 9 you and the other occupiers first entered the reserve on 10 May 6, 1993. Have you been able to do that? 11 A: I have it here, sir. 12 Q: All right. And can you -- perhaps Ms. 13 Hensel can assist us by indicating on the -- on the 14 projected map where that location is. 15 So, we're indicating then just west of the 16 -- of the -- the intersection where Jericho Road 17 intersects Highway 21. Is that right? 18 A: Well, to be more precisely, it's right 19 -- right on the west of -- of Mud Creek. 20 Q: Right on the west of Mud Creek. 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Fair enough. And I gather from your 23 evidence earlier there was gate there that -- 24 A: No, there was no gate there, sir. 25 Q: -- as well. Sorry?
91 A: There was no gate, sir, the -- 2 Q: All right. 3 A: -- the fence was -- was very low, sir. 4 Q: Just a fence. 5 A: Just made -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- very low so we just pushed it down. 8 We -- we never -- we -- we took the gate later. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: We got more organized, sir. 11 Q: Okay. And could you -- Ms. Hensel, 12 could you mark a one (1) beside that location so that we 13 know where that is? Thank you. 14 Now, Mr. George, I'm going to ask you 15 about the trailer that you brought onto the reserve. How 16 long after May 6, 1993, approximately, did you bring your 17 trailer onto the reserve? Was it a week? Two (2) weeks? 18 A month? How long, approximately? 19 A: Probably -- within -- within the 20 month, sir. 21 Q: Within a month? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: There was several of us that -- that 25 had trailers and then --
101 Q: Yes? 2 A: -- they moved it in. 3 Q: There were -- I gather there were 4 several trailers and several campers as well, were there? 5 A: Yes. There -- there was a few. 6 Q: Yes, and tents? 7 A: A lot -- a lot of pup tents. 8 Q: Yes. And by pup tents do you mean 9 tents that are -- 10 A: Just the -- just the small ones that 11 you can almost carry around and -- 12 Q: On -- a pup tent that's -- that's on 13 the ground or on a vehicle? 14 A: No, not on a vehicle. No, sir, on 15 the ground. 16 Q: On the ground. And there were other 17 tents I gather, camper tents on trailers? 18 A: Not -- not too many, sir. Because 19 right away -- right away we started building little -- 20 little homes. 21 Q: All right. Could you indicate to us 22 then on the map where you first positioned your trailer 23 within the month of June -- sorry, month of May 6th, '93. 24 I think you told us that it was on the property that your 25 mother had owned?
111 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: If you could put an "X" there? And 3 Ms. Hensel, could you mark a two (2) by that please? All 4 right, thank you. Can you indicate to us on the 5 projected map where that's located? Okay, so that's -- 6 it appears immediately east of the word "magazine" on the 7 map? 8 A: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. The magazine -- 9 the ammunition magazine was -- was behind there in the 10 bush there. 11 Q: Okay. And when you first located 12 your trailer at that spot, was it in a clear area or was 13 it in bush? 14 A: No, sir. It was a clear -- it was a 15 five (5) acre piece of land that my mother owned for -- 16 for our purposes. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: I -- I later moved into the bush 19 there. 20 Q: And when -- let's -- you told us you 21 lived in the bush as winter approached -- 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And can you then tell us where you 24 moved from that location, if you could indicate an "X" on 25 the location you moved your trailer to -- your -- I
121 gather you built a cabin as well, and where you built 2 that? 3 A: Yes, sir. It was well known as Uncle 4 Cliff's cabin, sir. 5 Q: Yes. And Ms. Hensel, could you mark 6 a three (3) by that, thank you? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q Q: That -- now you've indicated then you 9 moved it towards Highway 21 -- closer to Highway 21 -- 10 A: Well we were on Highway 21, just off 11 of Highway 21 there. 12 Q: And west -- really, southwest of the 13 first location, both slight south and west of the 14 location where you first put the trailer? 15 A: Yes. The -- the road immediately 16 south -- south of the section there is Highway 21, sir. 17 Q: Yes, okay. Mr. George, did your 18 trailer and cabin remain in that location thereafter 19 until you left in 1993? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: '98, I mean? 22 A: Yes, sir. It stayed there -- there 23 were several of us moved in along there and built homes 24 and the lumber and the stuff was -- was furnished to us 25 by the UAW. They were helping us at that time, sir.
131 Q: Right. So it remained there until 2 1998 when you left the reserve. 3 A: Just recently they -- they asked me 4 if they could have it and to put it further in the bush 5 and I said go ahead and use it because I'm done with it. 6 Q: Now, is it still there? 7 A: It's in -- it's in the property 8 somewhere. I -- I don't even know where they moved it. 9 Q: It's been moved to some other 10 location? 11 A: Yes, sir. And the front part of it 12 has been dismantled and -- and broken up, and they -- 13 they cleared a place for me there. 14 Q: All right. Now you've also told us 15 that you and others gave Dudley George a trailer for 16 which he was very grateful. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And when did that -- when was that 19 trailer given to Dudley and when did it come onto the 20 reserve? 21 A: Well as -- as time passed several 22 people helped us and I think this trailer come from Hydro 23 in Sarnia, where -- 24 Q: I understand but -- 25 A: -- they gave it to us and -- and we
141 gave it to -- to Dudley. 2 Q: I understand that. What I'm trying 3 to determine is when that was that the trailer came on -- 4 first came onto the Reserve. Did the trailer come onto 5 the Reserve for someone else first, or what? 6 A: No, no, it was given to us that they 7 give to somebody. 8 Q: I see. And when was that. 9 A: Who -- whoever needed that. That's a 10 -- probably about a month. 11 Q: A month after May 6, '93? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: All right. And did -- so the trailer 14 came onto the Reserve in early June or so, '93, -- 15 A: Somewhere around there, sir, -- 16 Q: Yes. And -- 17 A: -- I can't exactly remember the time. 18 Q: And did you immediately give it to 19 Dudley? 20 A: Well, we had a Council meeting and -- 21 and -- and there was other people needing it and -- and 22 we -- we decided that Dudley was the one that needed it, 23 sir. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: And can you tell us on the map and
151 indicate with an "X" where that was located? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And, Ms. Hensel, could you mark a "4" 6 beside that "X". Thank you. 7 A: Right beside the rangers there. 8 Q: All right. So you've indicated, Mr. 9 George, that it was located immediately north of the road 10 that parallels Highway 21, just south of the words, Rifle 11 Range? 12 A: Yes, sir, there -- there -- there was 13 a -- they were inside the fence of the property itself, 14 there's a -- here -- a road there that everybody used it, 15 the military used that for their driving around the 16 Reserve. 17 Q: And how far, if you could help us, was 18 the trailer from that road that was inside the fence? 19 A: Oh approximately maybe about ten 20 (10), about twenty (20) feet, -- 21 Q: Twenty (20) feet? 22 A: -- thirty (30) feet, somewhere around 23 there. 24 Q: Okay. Now, there were other trailers 25 that I gather remained on the Reserve through the winter,
161 were there? 2 A: Yes, sir, there was. 3 Q: And approximately how many other 4 trailers remained on the Reserve over the winter of 5 1993/94? 6 A: There was two (2) other large ones 7 just like the one we gave to -- to Dudley, they also -- 8 well, we bought one and -- and the other one was given to 9 us, sir. 10 Q: So the two (2) others, apart from 11 yours and Dudley's? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And can you tell us, please, where 14 they were located? You said there was one (1) large one? 15 A: Well, they -- they were all -- they 16 were all about thirty-six (36) feeters, sir. 17 Q: Okay. Well, if you could mark each 18 of those for us, please. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: There was one there and there still 23 exists one right about here somewhere, it's still there. 24 Okay. 25 Q: Ms. Hensel, could you put the numbers
171 "5" and "6" beside those two marks and indicate to us on 2 the projected map where they are located. Maybe you 3 could tell us which one you've marked "5" and which one 4 you've marked "6", too. 5 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: This trailer is 6 marked Number 5, right here. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay. And that 8 indicates that it's immediately north of the road that -- 9 inside the fence that parallels Highway 21 and just south 10 and west of the words, Transition Range. Okay. 11 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And there's 12 another marked here, Number 6. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: And that's immediately 14 west of the one you've marked Number 5. Thank you. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: So that over the winter of 1993/94, 18 those were the four (4) trailers, I gather from your 19 evidence, that were there used by the occupiers? 20 A: Three (3) trailers, sir. 21 Q: Sorry, there was yours, and Dudley's 22 and the two (2) additional ones. 23 A: Oh yes, sir, that's right, sir. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: There was still one (1) there in --
181 in position yet. 2 Q: Now, I gather Dudley's is not there 3 anymore. It's gone, isn't it? It's not -- 4 A: The trailer itself? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Yes, sir, it's gone. 7 Q: And what about the two (2) trailers 8 we've marked 5 and 6? 9 A: They are -- Q: Are they still or 10 are they gone? 11 A: There was one (1) that -- it was so 12 badly done I think -- I think they just smashed it up 13 because it -- it was -- it was old. But there's one (1) 14 still -- one (1) still there. 15 Q: Is it 5 or 6 that is still there? 16 A: I think -- I think it will be -- I 17 think it will be 5, sir. 18 Q: Okay, thank you. Now, over the winter 19 of 1993/94 were there other people from -- other 20 occupiers from time to time living in trailers 5 and 6? 21 A: I think they -- they were all pretty 22 well occupied plus -- plus by that time we -- we had 23 quite a few little buildings made all along -- all along 24 that road. 25 Q: All right, well let me just deal with
191 the -- 2 A: Like I said, like I said before, 3 lumber and -- and stuff were given to us by the -- by the 4 UAW. 5 Q: Mr. George, let me just deal with this 6 a step at a time. What I'm trying to determine is 7 whether or not there was anybody from time to time -- any 8 occupier from time to time -- actually occupying or 9 living in trailers 5 and 6 over the winter of '93/94, 10 because you told -- 11 A: Except -- except some time for the 12 weekends they -- they live -- otherwise they live there 13 permanently. 14 Q: I'm sorry, there are -- there were 15 people living in 5 and 6 permanently over the winter -- 16 A: Yes -- yes, sir. 17 Q: All right. Because you had earlier 18 told us that only you and -- as I understood it -- only 19 you and Dudley had wintered over the winter of '93/94. 20 A: In -- in a -- in a later -- later 21 year, maybe the next year when they started -- when they 22 started going home for -- for the weekends and staying 23 there. Dudley and I were the only ones that stayed 24 there -- 25 Q: Okay.
201 A: -- permanently, sir. 2 Q: Okay. So -- so I understand your 3 evidence that what you're saying is that you and Dudley 4 remained there -- living there -- seven (7) days a week 5 through the winter of '93/94? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: That was your residence and it was 8 Dudley's residence? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Others, you say, from time to time, 11 resided in trailers 5 and 6 over the winter. 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: All right. Now, I gather over the 14 winter of -- of '93/94, there were no people camping in 15 tents. The tents had all gone. 16 A: No, sir. By that -- by that time 17 everybody had -- had little small trailers or -- or with 18 additions to it like -- like mine was. 19 Q: All right. Well, I'm a little 20 confused. Was there -- were there any other trailers 21 besides the four (4) you've indicated that were there 22 over the winter of '93/94? 23 A: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. There -- there 24 was. There was two (2) that I know of that -- that 25 stayed there all -- all winter long.
211 Q: Two (2) other trailers -- 2 A: Yes -- yes -- 3 Q: -- besides the ones we've talked 4 about? 5 A: -- along -- along the same road, just 6 -- just down a little. 7 Q: Okay. And were people living in those 8 trailers from time to time? 9 A: Most of the -- most of the time, yes, 10 sir. 11 Q: All right. Could you tell us then 12 where those trailers were located, please? Mark those. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I have three (3) 17 items here. 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: Three (3) additional 19 trailers? 20 THE WITNESS: Not -- not trailers, sir. 21 They're -- they're buildings that they made themselves. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: Okay. Well, Mr. George, I'd asked you 25 about trailers. Let's just deal with the trailers for
221 the moment. Were -- 2 A: I -- I didn't mark them, I just 3 mentioned that I got to leave room there for -- for -- 4 for others that -- that built there. 5 Q: All right -- 6 A: So I'm just dealing with trailers. 7 Now, I -- I marked the two (2) that I indicated. 8 Q: There -- you've marked numbers 5 and 9 6 -- 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: -- and there are two (2) additional 12 trailers that you've marked? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Okay. And could you indicate to Ms. 15 Hensel which of -- which other two (2) marks are 16 additional trailers, please? 17 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: So, these are both 18 trailers, Mr. George? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay. Could you mark 7 21 and 8 by those and indicate to us where they are located, 22 please? 23 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: There's one (1) 24 trailer marked 7 here. 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right, thank you.
231 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And another 2 trailer -- 3 THE WITNESS: East of my -- my location 4 there. 5 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: So right here? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, this is mine and -- 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yours is number 3. 8 THE WITNESS: Just by that road there, 9 the magazine road just left there. There's another one 10 there right beside me, there -- practically beside me. 11 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: That would be 12 number 8. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 15 Q: All right. So 7 is west of your 16 trailer and 8 is east of your trailer? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Thank you. Now have we got all the 19 trailers that there were on the reserve over the winter 20 1993/94 or were there any others? 21 A: There was one more to the west of me 22 just right directly west of me here. I just about forgot 23 it. Where am I here? 24 Q: You're 3. 25 A: There -- there was a trailer there
241 and an addition made to it just like mine. Just -- well, 2 we were close neighbours. 3 Q: That was -- you've marked 7 which is 4 immediately west of you. Was there another trailer apart 5 from 7, west of you? 6 A: Yes. There was -- that one I just 7 indicated plus -- plus the other one I marked beside 8 there. There was another one, a small -- a small 9 trailer, which they made additions to, right -- right 10 beside mine. Where is mine here? Right here beside me. 11 Q: Okay. Ms. Hensel, could you help us 12 with that? We'll mark that number 9. So that -- was 13 that trailer just west of your trailer? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: Thank you. So then we have two (2) 16 trailers west of yours and one (1) trailer immediately 17 east of yours, is that right? So there were a collection 18 of four (4) trailers there? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Okay. And that's where you built 21 your cabin? 22 A: Right -- right onto my trailer and 23 then so were the others. 24 Q: And -- what was the -- what was the 25 distance between your trailer and the one immediately
251 west of you? How far was it from you? 2 A: Oh, about from here out to the cars. 3 Just a very short distance. 4 Q: Sorry, from -- 5 A: Just about a short distance, sir. 6 Within talking distance, maybe about forty (40), fifty 7 (50) feet. 8 Q: Forty (40), fifty (50) feet? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. And with respect to the 11 trailer that was west of that trailer, how far was it 12 west of the trailer that was forty (40) to fifty (50) 13 feet? 14 A: Well it was -- that was maybe -- 15 maybe three (3) or four hundred (400) yards to the west 16 along that creek. 17 Q: All right. It was three (3) or four 18 hundred (400) yards from your trailer? 19 A: Pardon? 20 Q: Three (3) or four hundred (400) yards 21 from your trailer? 22 A: Just about that, sir. 23 Q: Okay. With respect to the trailer 24 that was east of your trailer, what was the distance from 25 your trailer to that trailer?
261 A: Oh, maybe about thirty (30), forty 2 (40) feet, if that. 3 Q: Now you just mentioned, Mr. George, 4 the creek. Could you indicate for us on the map where 5 you say the creek was? 6 A: Right beside the road. Right beside 7 that road is -- I'll have to mark it down this side but 8 it is on this side where that creek runs. And that ended 9 into a pond there. 10 Q: Could you mark a 10 beside that 11 please, Ms. Hensel, and we'll -- and indicate to us where 12 the creek's located? 13 Ms. Hensel's indicating a creek running in 14 a north and south direction immediately east of what 15 appears to be a road running in a north and south 16 direction that is -- is -- that ends south of a -- what 17 appears to be a road that has a circle, a turn-around 18 circle. 19 Is that a fair description, Mr. 20 Commissioner? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Your 22 description is as good as mine, Mr. Roland. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. I'm trying 24 to describe it in words. 25 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I believe that is
271 north -- north of the -- 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: The creek? 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: The creek ends 4 north of the circle. 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: The creek -- yes -- but 6 it -- I'm trying to describe it. It's parallel to the 7 road that ends just south of the circle, is that fair? 8 THE WITNESS: Okay, it comes in -- it 9 comes in on into the farmlands and then it -- it -- it 10 goes quite a ways -- a few miles. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 13 Q: Right, thank you. And is that the 14 creek, Mr. George, that you talked about earlier of which 15 there was an agreement that you and the other occupiers 16 would not -- would use as -- as a boundary with respect 17 to separating the occupiers from the military barracks 18 and that the occupiers would not go to the west of? 19 A: Yes, sir, that's -- that's right. 20 Just adjacent to that creek on that -- on that well-known 21 route there that -- that we indicated before. 22 Q: And what was the distance, if you 23 could tell us, from your trailer to the creek? How far 24 was that? 25 A: Well, it wasn't too far. It was
281 maybe far -- from here up town, something like -- it 2 wasn't too far. 3 Q: A hundred (100) -- 4 A: Maybe -- 5 Q: A hundred (100) feet? Two hundred 6 (200) feet? 7 A: Oh, it was a little further than 8 that, sir. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Because we got all these -- all these 11 buildings on it plus mine. That's quite a little 12 section. 13 Q: Okay, so how -- just give us your 14 best estimate of the distance from your place to the 15 creek. 16 17 (BRIEF PLACE) 18 19 A: From my place there -- well, it's got 20 to be about, say, about five (500) or six hundred (600) 21 yards. 22 Q: Okay, thank you. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
291 Q: Now, can you tell us then whether 2 there were any other places that were inhabited, apart 3 from the trailers that you've identified over the winter 4 of 1993/94? 5 Were there any cabins or other structures 6 that were inhabited by occupiers from time to time over 7 the winter of '93/94? 8 A: Yes, sir. Yes, sir there was but -- 9 but I think -- I think the family would -- would be 10 better to indicate that later on. 11 Q: So there was one (1) other -- other 12 structure? 13 A: There's -- there's -- there's a few 14 others that -- that was occupied there that -- that were 15 regular cabins and this and that, just along the -- the 16 firing range. 17 Q: Along -- 18 A: There was several in there right up 19 the end of the firing range in the bush there -- there's 20 -- and I just can't -- can't exactly tell you exactly 21 what they are or where -- 22 Q: That was at the north end of the 23 firing range? 24 A: No, to the west of the firing range. 25 Q: To the west of the firing range?
301 A: Yes, sir. That was -- that was the 2 end of the firing range and this was just beside that. 3 Q: All right. Now, you've told us that 4 you only you and Ms. -- Dudley George were permanent 5 residents over the winter of '93/94 -- 6 A: Just a very few weekends, sir, when 7 they questioned the occupation. I -- when they were 8 questioning the occupation our idea was that -- that 9 somebody had to be there -- 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: -- twenty-four (24) hours a day and - 12 - and we were the only two (2) that -- that faithfully 13 stayed there over weekends to give them a chance to run 14 home and do their -- do their work. 15 Q: Let's deal -- let's move from west to 16 east of these trailers and start with Number 7 which is 17 the one you put at the -- as the most westerly of the 18 trailers. 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And who lived in that trailer from 21 time to time? 22 A: It was a -- it was my -- my cousin, 23 Terry. Terry George, or my nephew, Terry George. 24 Q: Terry George? 25 A: Yes, sir.
311 Q: And was he the only one that lived in 2 that trailer? 3 A: Oh, he has family. 4 Q: He and his family? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Okay. And then the next trailer 7 moving east is Trailer 9 and who lived in that trailer 8 from time to time? This is the one immediately west of 9 your trailer. 10 A: Yes, sir, Hubert -- Hubert George 11 was -- 12 Q: Sorry? 13 A: Hubert George, sir. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: And his family. 16 Q: And his family. All right. And then 17 if we move to the trailer that's east of your trailer, 18 trailer 8, who lived in that trailer from time to time? 19 A: I forget his name but -- but it's -- 20 it's some of the family of -- of Maynard T. George. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: His -- his daughter and -- and her 23 husband who was -- who was not from -- from the reserve. 24 He was from another reserve. 25 Q: Okay.
321 A: And I -- I forget his name completely, 2 sir. 3 Q: Then the next -- moving east, the next 4 trailer is Dudley George's. We know he lived there. 5 Then east of his trailer is trailer 6 marked on the map. 6 Can you tell us who lived there from time 7 to time? 8 A: Well, there was his -- his -- his 9 cousins and brothers that dropped in there once in a 10 while. I -- I couldn't tell exactly how -- how many 11 lived there permanently but there was quite a few there 12 every day. Some -- sometimes they drove in from Forest 13 or Kettle Point and -- and there -- there was quite a few 14 of the family that -- that was there every day. 15 Q: Sorry, we may -- you may misunderstand 16 my question. I'm not asking who was at Dudley George's 17 trailer from time to time, I've moved east of that to 18 trailer 6, if you could look at the map at trailer 6, 19 which is the trailer east of Dudley's. 20 A: I think somebody else can tell you 21 that, because I don't -- I don't know the name of them 22 young people because I've been off the reserve for many, 23 many years but -- but they will -- they will indicate who 24 -- who -- who lived in these other two (2) trailers. 25 Q: Okay, so 5 and 6 -- you're saying, the
331 other two (2) trailers are 5 and 6 -- you don't know who 2 lived in the trailers? 3 A: If I saw them I don't think I'd even 4 know their names. 5 Q: All right. Were the -- 6 A: I'd know their faces but -- but I 7 don't -- don't remember their names. 8 Q: Okay. And were they young? 9 A: Middle-aged. 10 Q: Middle-aged? 11 A: Yes, sir, between young and middle- 12 aged. 13 Q: We have to -- we probably have to 14 define that given that you're older than anybody else in 15 this room. About what age were they? 16 A: I'd say -- I'd say late twenties and - 17 - and -- and so on. Late twenties and some in their 18 thirties. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Early thirties. 21 Q: Thank you. Mr. George, let me just 22 get -- set the scene a little further over the period of 23 time from May 6, '93 to September '95. 24 In the summer -- I'm -- we've talked about 25 the winter of '93/94; in the summer of '94, did
341 additional Natives come and occupy this area that we've 2 been looking at over the summer months? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Did they move in again in the summer 5 of '94 with tents and -- and campers? 6 A: There -- there were -- there were -- 7 there were some added trailers and they come in for a 8 while and they left. They left in the fall. 9 Q: Yes, all right. And did that occur 10 again in the summer of '95? 11 A: I can't recall, sir. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: But there was always residents there 14 somewhere along that -- that line. Some people lived 15 there completely. 16 Q: Yes, well let's go to the winter of 17 '94/95. Were you and Dudley George the only two (2) 18 permanent full-time occupiers in your trailers over the 19 winter of '94/95? 20 A: I -- like I told you before, just some 21 weekends the -- the people went home but most of the time 22 it was fully occupied by all of us. 23 Q: Okay. So, during the week then, 24 you're saying Monday to Friday, both in the winter of 25 '93/94 and the winter of '94/95 there were many people
351 living there. 2 A: Yeah, there were quite a few of us but 3 I can't tell you the exact amount because there was quite 4 a few of us. There were other people that might remember 5 exactly how many, but I -- but I don't. 6 Q: And I -- and I gather, Mr. George, the 7 people that were there generally had vehicles of one (1) 8 sort or another -- trucks or cars? 9 A: Yes, sir. They -- they pretty well -- 10 they pretty well all had -- had vehicles. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. And you've told us that you 12 had a -- two (2) vehicles -- not at the same time. You 13 had a Hyundai and then you had an old Chev. 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: Was that a Chev sedan? 16 A: Just an ordinary four (4) door. 17 Q: Okay. Now you've also told us that 18 as far as you knew Dudley George did not have a vehicle? 19 A: As far as I know he never ever owned 20 a car, sir. 21 Q: Did he -- did he obtain water like 22 you, from off the reserve? 23 A: I couldn't even tell you where he got 24 his water. I imagine -- I imagine they done the same 25 thing as I did. I imagine they brought water from --
361 from their own homes in Kettle Point. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: They also brought some for -- for 4 Dudley. 5 Q: Do you recall a vehicle that's 6 described as an -- an older full size Blazer? 7 Do you recall that vehicle? 8 A: Well, there were several other ones. 9 I couldn't tell you which one. There were several old 10 cars. You just drive by and you'll find out how many 11 different cars that were there. 12 Q: All right. You -- what about a red 13 farm tractor? Do you remember a red farm tractor? 14 A: I think you're mentioning the one 15 that belonged to -- to, what do you call him, Glen. 16 Q: Glenn George had a red farm truck? 17 A: I -- I -- I'm pretty sure it was red. 18 I'm not exactly convinced on that but I'm pretty sure it 19 was a red farm tractor. 20 Q: And -- and do you also recall that 21 there were some ATV's, all terrain vehicles, smaller four 22 (4) wheel all terrain vehicles? 23 A: Not that I know of, sir. 24 Q: You don't recall those? 25 A: No, sir I don't. Well, it was just
371 old vehicles was all they ever used. 2 Q: Mr. George, you told us that while 3 you were occupying the reserve from May '93 through to at 4 least the fall of '95, you used entrances other than the 5 military entrance on the barracks which is at -- that is 6 from Army Camp Road. Right? You -- you didn't use that 7 entrance? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: You used other entrances? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And can you -- you told us the 12 entrance that you used to first occupy the reserve which 13 we marked as 1 on the map. Did you use that entrance 14 thereafter to come and go? 15 A: No. Like I told you, there were 16 other -- there were other fence where we first entered 17 was a fence we -- we broke down so we can get over it. 18 Q: So you didn't use that -- that wasn't 19 an entrance -- 20 A: No, no, it was not, sir. 21 Q: Okay. Could you indicate to us on 22 the map where the entrances were that you did use? 23 A: That one (1) there and there was one 24 (1) there and then there was -- there was one (1) here. 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay. Ms. Hensel, how
381 many has the witness marked on the map? 2 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Three (3). 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: And could you please 4 number each of them and then tell us where they're 5 located and the numbers you've assigned to them please? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Okay. So there 10 are three (3) entrances. I've assigned them numbers 11, 11 12 and 13. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 13 THE WITNESS: Almost directly in front of 14 my home there, just to the left. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: The witness, I think, has indicated 18 that one entrance is almost at the location of -- 19 immediately south of your cabin? 20 A: Yes. It could be extension of the -- 21 the road as indicated there on -- for the ammunition 22 dump. It's exactly -- exactly out that -- 23 Q: Could you indicate, sir, that is 24 Number -- is that Number 11? 25 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes, it is.
391 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay. Thank you. And, 2 the next one? 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: This is marked as 4 Number 12. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: And that's -- is that an extension of 8 what appears to be a road running in a north-south 9 direction to the west of the Rifle Range? Is that fair? 10 A: Yes, sir, that's what -- that's 11 exactly where it is, sir. 12 Q: Okay. That's Number 12? 13 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: There's a little 14 bit cut off in this corner of the map -- 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: -- that doesn't 17 appear in the paper. 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 19 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: But were it here, 20 this would be Number 13. 21 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: Thirteen (13). That's at the very 25 extreme southeast of the Reserve?
401 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Almost in the corner? 3 A: Well, I think it was almost in the 4 corner, yes, sir. 5 Q: Yes, fair enough, thank you. 6 Mr. George, did you use your vehicle, not 7 only to come and go on and off the Reserve, but also to 8 travel around the Reserve on the roads on the Reserve, 9 from time to time? 10 A: Sure. Always stay on side roads. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: You travelled those roads? 14 A: I did, sir. 15 Q: Yes. All right. And let's just, if 16 we could, describe those roads. We have the road that 17 runs parallel to Highway 21 in an east and west 18 direction, and if we -- if we go along that road in an 19 easterly direction, it appears to intersect a road that 20 runs in a northerly direction, beside what's described as 21 the Grenade Range, on the map; is that correct? 22 It appears to run in a north-south 23 direction west of the words, Grenade Range? 24 A: Yes, sir, I've decided there's one -- 25 there's one there that --
411 Q: And that road appears to continue in 2 a more or less northerly direction and then somewhat 3 westerly, until it intersects a road that is shown 4 immediately north of the letter "Y" in Military; is that 5 correct? 6 A: Yes, sir, that's right. 7 Q: And I take it you travelled that part 8 of the road from time to time? 9 A: I travelled all of them, sir, that's 10 marked in here. 11 Q: All right. And then there's a road 12 that, the road that we're talking about that intersects 13 the road that you've just described, goes in a north and 14 easterly direction and winds around towards what's 15 described as the Rocket Launcher Range; is that fair? 16 A: Yes, sir, it follows -- it follows 17 the -- the outer -- outer road all along the fence 18 there -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- and -- and it leads up and through 21 there and it meets the other -- the other roads. 22 Q: And if we go back to the -- where 23 that -- the first road that travels in a northerly 24 direction that -- that intersects the one we just 25 described, just north of the letter "Y" in Military, that
421 road then appears to continue in a westerly direction and 2 goes right out towards Army Camp Road; right? 3 A: Yes, all them -- all -- all them 4 roads meet at one place or another, that -- that is the 5 Foothills -- Foothills Road -- 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: -- that goes by our Cemetery. 8 Q: Right. You called that the Foothills 9 Road? 10 A: Well, yes, that's the start -- that's 11 the start of the -- the sand -- the sand hills. 12 Q: All right. And there are other 13 roads, there's another road that leads off from the road 14 we just described at the letter "L" in Military, and 15 heads in a northerly direction, and then joins the one 16 we'd earlier described and turns north and then west. 17 Is that, what I understand, the extension 18 of Matheson Drive? 19 A: No, sir. 20 Q: No? 21 A: That -- that's the -- that's strictly 22 still the Army Camp roads that -- that -- that extend 23 around there, that was a well beaten roads -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- that -- that we all used for
431 travelling around -- around our perimeter of -- of Stony 2 Point. 3 Q: All right. And that road we see, 4 goes in a westerly direction and then turns south 5 parallel to Army Camp Road, correct? 6 A: Yes, sir. It -- it meets Army Camp 7 Road plus -- plus it turns off in the -- 8 Q: It's the road that's parallel to Army 9 Camp Road just immediately east of Army Camp Road inside 10 the fence? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And that heads back towards the 13 barracks? 14 A: Yeah. That goes right back into the 15 barracks, sir. 16 Q: And I gather you didn't, while you 17 were travelling, go beyond the creek you've talked about 18 towards the barracks. You didn't travel in that 19 direction, that is on the road that parallels Highway 21, 20 you -- you didn't drive your vehicle west of the creek, 21 did you? 22 A: Yes, sir. We used that periodically 23 because it -- it was not out of bounds to us. 24 Q: You did or didn't use it? 25 A: We did, sir.
441 Q: You did travel on the road that 2 parallels Highway 21 with your vehicle? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: West of the creek? 5 A: It leaves here right up to the 6 foothills, sir. So that road -- 7 Q: No, sorry. I think we're -- we may 8 be misunderstanding one another and it's -- it's my 9 fault. Let me start again, Mr. George. I'm now talking 10 about the road that parallels Highway 21, all right? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: That comes -- that starts at the west 13 end in the barracks and goes easterly along Highway 21? 14 A: That -- that road goes all the way -- 15 the length or the width of Stony Point itself. 16 Q: It does? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And I thought I understood from your 19 evidence that you didn't travel on that road west -- you 20 did not travel on that road west of the creek that you 21 talked about -- 22 A: I said it's just a very short 23 distance from -- from that creek. They didn't make it 24 right on the creek. Well it's say maybe -- maybe about - 25 - maybe about a hundred (100) feet.
451 Q: You travelled a hundred (100) feet 2 west of the creek? 3 A: That -- that is where the barricade 4 was -- was placed, sir. 5 Q: Okay. There's a barricade? I hadn't 6 heard about a barricade I don't think or I don't recall. 7 Tell us about the barricade. What sort of barricade was 8 that? 9 A: We were talking about it yesterday, 10 sir. 11 Q: I'm sorry, I -- I didn't understand 12 that was your -- 13 A: That is -- that is where they -- with 14 the tractor, he pulled the stakes out and that -- that's 15 when we made our way back into the camp and used the 16 camp. 17 Q: I see. 18 A: We -- we -- because they knew we 19 weres doing it and it was Glen that pulled the barricade 20 down when they entered into the northwest section of the 21 camp itself. 22 Q: Okay. So when was that barricade -- 23 to your knowledge when was that barricade erected? When 24 did it first appear? 25 A: The last year that the cadets were
461 there and I -- I can't even tell you that but -- but I 2 think we found out that when the last year the cadets 3 were -- were in there. 4 Q: And can you describe the barricade 5 for us? 6 A: Pardon? 7 Q: Could you please describe it? 8 A: It was simply two (2) posts with a 9 board between it. It wasn't really a barricade, it was 10 just a stop there to indicate how far -- how far -- that 11 we're not to go beyond that. 12 Q: Right. And was that a board that 13 could be removed so vehicles could travel through? 14 A: It was yes, one of them would pick up 15 and then in -- because they use it themselves. Either 16 that or they drove around it with their vehicles. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. And by "they," you mean the 18 military? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Let me ask you about another vehicle, 21 a brown pickup. Do you remember anybody having a brown 22 pickup? 23 A: I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell 24 you, there were so many old vehicles there, I don't think 25 anybody could explain all the different vehicles that we
471 went through there. Old vehicles and stuff like that, 2 I'm sorry, sir. 3 Q: Okay. The one vehicle that you were 4 asked about yesterday was the vehicle, I think a Ford 5 which -- I think black and white Ford, it had a "OPP WHO" 6 written on it. Do you remember being asked about that? 7 A: Yes, sir. That's the one I've seen 8 in the east end of the compound, I've seen it there going 9 -- driving by. 10 Q: Yeah. And I understand there's 11 evidence that there was also the word or the name 12 'Dudley' written on that vehicle. Do you recall that? 13 A: No it wasn't when I was there, all I 14 ever seen was "OPP WHO". 15 Q: Do you remember also seeing the words 16 to the affect, "Don't laugh, your daughter could be 17 inside?" Do you remember those words on the vehicle? 18 A: No, sir, I never -- never ever noticed 19 that part of it. All I ever noticed was "OPP WHO" 20 because it was in big letters. 21 Q: Was there any other vehicle that you 22 recall with the words "OPP WHO" on it or was the only 23 vehicle? 24 A: No, sir, that's the only one that I -- 25 that I recall, sir.
481 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Mr. George, you have in front of you 4 as well, a schematic diagram of the barracks. It's 5 title, "For official use only. Building usage" and it 6 says, "Current to February 13, '96." 7 Do you see that schematic diagram? 8 A: That's -- that's -- that's a good 9 diagram of -- of the camp itself. 10 Q: Yeah. That's the camp, I take it, as 11 you knew it when you worked at the camp. 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: I was -- I was a caretaker there for a 15 few -- I knew every building that was there. 16 Q: Yeah. And I asked you yesterday about 17 a tower -- about an observation tower or observation post 18 -- and you indicated that you weren't aware of any one 19 (1) in particular but I think you said they're -- the 20 best candidates that can be described as an observation 21 tower or post were -- what, the water tower? 22 A: No -- no -- at that time, yes, there 23 was a -- was fire tower -- 24 Q: Fire tower? 25 A: -- from where they could over --
491 overlook -- overlook the whole camp. 2 Q: And was that fire tower in the 3 administration building or part of the administration -- 4 A: Well, right adjacent to it, sir. 5 Q: Adjacent to the administration 6 building? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Okay. And we see on this schematic 9 diagram, number -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 11 a copy of that schematic diagram? I don't have one, 12 please. Would you like to make that an exhibit? 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, please. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-41, Your Honour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 P-41. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-41: Schematic Diagram of Military 19 Barracks Camp Ipperwash 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 Carry on. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Millar's going to 24 project it on the screen. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. We
501 all have to stand on our heads. 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: Or lie down. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or lie down. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You can turn it any 5 way you want, Mr. Roland, but that's the way it looks. 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay, that's fine. 7 That's fine. We'll -- we'll leave it that way so that 8 what we have -- what -- 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Route 21 is on the 10 right-hand side. Army Camp Road is the lower of the 11 west-hand side of this map. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 14 Q: All right. And I understand from this 15 legend that the administration building is marked as 1 16 and you'll see that -- you'll see that -- and is that -- 17 can you tell us -- can you mark where the -- where you 18 understand the fire tower is or was? 19 A: Just across the road from that -- that 20 little black building there. Just across the road from - 21 - from the admin building there. That is a fire tower 22 and a fire building. It was one (1) of the towers that - 23 - that is where we kept our equipment. 24 Q: And that's where the towers -- can -- 25 Ms. Hensel, can you help us with that?
511 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Sure can. Shall I 2 mark that as number 1? 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: That would be -- that 4 would be helpful. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. 5 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 8 Q: Mr. George, is that tower still 9 present today or do you know? 10 A: Yes, sir, it's still there, sir. 11 Q: It is. Okay, thank you. And it's a 12 tower that extends, what? Two (2) or three (3) stories 13 in height? Can you tell -- 14 A: It -- it -- it stands above all the 15 rest of the buildings, sir. 16 Q: About a storey or two (2)? 17 A: Well -- well, it is quite high up 18 there. 19 Q: Yeah. And does it have glass all 20 around it? 21 A: Yes, sir, it has. 22 Q: And it's so that someone can stand 23 inside the tower -- 24 A: Yes, there -- 25 Q: -- and observe?
521 A: -- there's a ladder leading -- 2 leading up to it where you can inside and if there's a 3 fire on, you would spot it right away where the fire was, 4 sir. 5 Q: I see. And from that tower can one 6 observe in three hundred and sixty (360) degrees all 7 around? 8 A: Just about, sir. 9 Q: Thank you. Well, I'm helped by Mr. - 10 - Mr. Millar indicates that the Witness has identified 11 it, I think, correctly. It's Building 19 is the fire 12 hall and so it's part of the fire hall. 13 You've -- 14 A: Yes, sir, that -- 15 Q: Mr. George, you -- you actually -- 16 yes, I'm -- I'm complementing you. You did locate it 17 properly. You picked out the fire hall. I didn't help 18 you much. It's actually noted as nineteen (19), so you 19 did identify the right -- 20 A: I forget the numbers all the 21 buildings, sir. I was in every one of them. 22 Q: Now, Mr. George, I'm going to refer 23 you to some statements of persons who witnessed certain 24 matters and in some cases, participated in events that 25 occurred on the reserve from May 6th, 1993 to September
531 1995 and even later. 2 These are statements that have been 3 provided to us by the Commission. They're statements of 4 persons who I expect the Commission will call before this 5 Inquiry to testify. Their statements record observations 6 and events that they observed and appear to differ in 7 some respects, from your recollection. 8 You may not have, yourself, witnessed 9 these events, but you may have some knowledge of them as 10 a result of what you've told us, sir. Your numerous 11 discussions with the other occupiers on the reserve 12 during this period of time that you were there. 13 And in fairness to you, I will refer you 14 to the portions of these statements and ask you to 15 comment on them. And ask us to provide us, if you can, 16 with your explanation where the state -- statements 17 differ from your evidence to this Inquiry to date. Okay, 18 you understand? 19 A: Yes, sir, I do. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 21 you proceed, Mr. Roland, the statements are not being 22 offered at this time for the truth. It is statements -- 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: No -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that 25 witnesses will be called in due course and --
541 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I -- I assume the 2 witnesses will be called by the -- by the Commission -- 3 by this Commission. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And other 5 Counsel -- including other Counsel will have an 6 opportunity to examine -- cross-examine the witnesses -- 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Absolutely -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 9 statements they are. So at this time, you're just asking 10 this witness to -- to comment on them. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: This -- this really, Mr. 12 Commissioner, is, in a more strict legal sense, is 13 required by the Rule of Brown and Dunn. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I'm -- 15 I'm familiar with that. That's what you're doing in 16 effect -- 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: That's what I'm doing. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to make 19 sure that if there are any -- 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: In fairness to this 21 witness -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 23 inconsistencies, he should have an opportunity to comment 24 on them. 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: Exactly.
551 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much, Mr. Roland. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 5 Q: Yesterday, Mr. George, I provided 6 Commission Counsel with a copy of all of these statements 7 that I will refer you to this morning and I agreed with 8 Commission Counsel that he could show them to you. 9 Have you had an opportunity to look at the 10 statements? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: You have not? Did you discuss the 13 statements with Mr. Worme? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: No, all right. Well, then it will be 16 spoken. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Mr. George, Mr. Worme tells me that 21 he did review them with you and read -- 22 A: I -- I was mixed up, sir. Yes, he 23 did show me -- he did show me but he didn't -- he didn't 24 read it out fully to me. But I understood what -- what 25 he was showing me all through the deal.
561 We didn't have time to read it because I 2 couldn't even read it and he had a heck of a job trying - 3 - trying to -- trying to read that small print himself. 4 Q: All right. All right, Mr. George, 5 I'm first going to take you to those portions of the 6 statement with deal -- that deal with -- that deal with 7 the topic of hunting. All right? We're talking about 8 hunting. 9 And as I understand your evidence as far 10 as you were aware, there was little or no hunting that 11 took place on the reserve itself during the time we're 12 talking about that. This is May '93 to September '95. 13 Do I have that right? 14 A: I guess in your deal, what I told 15 your boy, I told you people that I -- I never was not 16 aware of all this. But I am with some. 17 Q: So you were aware -- 18 A: I -- I only heard, sir, second hand 19 that -- that they went hunting yesterday or whatever and 20 -- and just like I heard from -- from the bailiff. Just 21 -- just hearsay is all I can give you. 22 Q: All right. Did Mr. -- did Mr. Scott 23 Ewart tell you that he was hunting on the reserve? 24 A: No, sir, never. 25 Q: Did you see him with his gun on the
571 reserve? 2 A: No, sir, never. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: In Mr. Ewart's statement, it's 7 actually a recorded, audio recorded statement and it's 8 for our purposes at Tab 3 of the Book of Documents that 9 are in front of you and in particular at page 14, he was 10 asked the question, did you ever see -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 12 Mr. Roland, Mr. Ross has an observation. Mr. Ross, would 13 you like to state your... 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 15 wondering whether or not my Learned Friend is going to 16 produce who transcribed this audio statement, whether or 17 not it was checked against the original audio statement 18 and who certified it? To me it's very important, thank 19 you, Mr. Commissioner. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: These -- these 21 statements were provided to us by the Commission. And I 22 assume that when this evidence is called by the 23 Commission, that Commission Counsel will vouch say for 24 the -- authenticity of these statements and if there's an 25 issue about them, that he'll -- the Commission Counsel
581 will call evidence to that affect. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Worme, 3 do you want to say something? 4 MR. DONALD WORME: I think the -- the 5 only observation from the Commission's perspective, Mr. 6 Commissioner, is that they were provided by the OPP. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The OPP 8 provided them to the Commission -- 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: And the Commission has - 10 - has provided them in this Proceeding. We get them from 11 the Commission and I assume -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 13 Commission gets them from you. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: And I assume the 15 Commission -- sir, I'm not the OPP. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 17 understand. Your client is -- 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: No, my -- well my 19 clients are employed by the OPP. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Your clients 21 are employed by the OPP. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. They are not the 23 OPP. Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But we can 25 assume that one (1) way or the other, that -- if a
591 question of authenticity of the statements is raised, 2 that either the OPP or the Commission should be able to 3 answer the questions that Mr. Ross has asked -- 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: I assume so. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if 6 there's any issue. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: And I assume that may be 8 said of all of the statements, Mr. Ross. 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I have my -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 11 know. We better settle this because I know once you put 12 them in they're in the record. So am I correct that if 13 there's any questions asked with respect to authenticity 14 of the statements that either the Commission or the OPP 15 can answer those questions and validate the statements? 16 If we can't, then maybe we better be 17 careful because the questions that you're asking may be 18 more properly asked at the time that the witness who's 19 giving a statement testifies. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: As I understand Mr. 21 Roland's submission with respect to these documents that 22 they aren't being put at this moment for the truth of 23 their content. 24 And obviously if there is some question as 25 to authenticity and that, etc., then we will be obliged
601 to call the Witnesses to put it to them as to whether or 2 not this is the statements they have provided. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Without the 4 caveat, at the moment these statements are not being put 5 in for the truth of the statements. They're -- they're 6 the form that you received them from the Commission and 7 they're subject to further identification and proof. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, and just so the 9 record's straight, we misspoke to say that this is an OPP 10 statement. This is actually SIU statement. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: SIU 12 statement. Well, we know that we did receive some 13 statements from the OPP and some from the SIU, so it's an 14 honest mistake. Carry on. 15 I think you -- you should carry on. I'm 16 just wondering if the rule in Brown and Dunn that you've 17 referred to -- if it might not be a good idea for you to 18 state very -- very briefly what that principle is. There 19 are lots of people in this room -- 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 22 particularly members of the public -- this is a public 23 inquiry -- just to have some idea of why you're doing 24 this -- 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes.
611 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- in this 2 way. 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: This is -- the rule is a 4 rule really a fairness to the Witness because there is, 5 it appears, going to be evidence called in this inquiry 6 that may be seen as contradicting the evidence of this 7 Witness. 8 And the rule states that it would be 9 unfair to this Witness for him not to have the 10 opportunity to hear this contradictory evidence and 11 either explain it or to alter his -- his evidence if his 12 -- if it assists him in his recollection. It's a rule of 13 fairness to the Witness. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 I think that's helpful for us to understand why this is 16 occurring in this way at this time. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much, Mr. Roland. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 22 Q: Now, I -- I asked you if I -- if you 23 would, Mr. George, to turn to Tab 3, paragraph -- or page 24 14. And for the purpose of the record, I don't propose 25 to put these statements in as exhibits at the moment but
621 for the purpose of the record, this is Inquiry -- 2 Document Number 1002455 in Volume II, so that we know in 3 the record which statement we're referring to. 4 Now, Mr. George, in that, you -- statement 5 you will see that Mr. Ewart is asked the question, 6 "Did you ever see weapons down there 7 with any of the natives?" 8 Answer, "I did see, yes, a couple of 9 times. They were no more -- no more 10 than hunting rifles. I believe Glenn 11 had -- had a gone. I think it was a 12 .22 Magnum. Of course, it was nothing 13 more than coon hunting and deer 14 hunting." 15 Do you see that? 16 A: Yes, sir, I see it. 17 Q: Does that help you at all refresh your 18 memory about there being some guns there, and in 19 particular in this case, a .22 Magnum rifle that Glenn 20 George had? 21 A: First of all, I've never ever seen the 22 weapon. I only saw -- saw them in the films that's -- 23 that's available. 24 Q: I see. 25 A: I never ever saw -- saw the gun,
631 itself, sir. 2 Q: And did you ever have any discussion 3 with Glenn or anybody about there being rifles -- hunting 4 rifles -- and in particular, a .22 Magnum rifle? 5 A: I never ever found it necessary to ask 6 anyone, sir. 7 Q: All right. Let me ask you about deer 8 hunting because there is -- in the statements, you will 9 know from your cursory review with Mr. Worme a statement 10 by Hector Gibeault -- G-I-B-E-A-U-L-T -- I gather 11 otherwise known as Haywire. 12 Do you know that individual? 13 A: I've seen him, sir. 14 Q: Yes, and when did you first see him? 15 A: I seen him several years ago. He's 16 been around here for several years. I don't know where 17 he's from, even. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: But -- but he -- he come from 20 elsewhere but -- but he's been around here for quite a 21 while. 22 Q: And did you see him at the reserve 23 between May '93 and September '95? 24 A: I couldn't tell you whether it was 25 that time or not, but I have seen him at my nephew's
641 place. 2 Q: Okay. Do you know that he lived in 3 one (1) of the trailers at one (1) stage? 4 A: Yes, a very small trailer they had as 5 a -- as -- as a place to sleep. 6 Q: He did? 7 A: Yes, sir, right beside the -- the -- 8 the trailer I indicated that was my -- my nephew's, Terry 9 George. 10 Q: Okay. Could you tell us which 11 numbered trailer that is on the map? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I guess it's Number 7, sir, right 16 beside the creek. 17 Q: Thank you. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: If you turn to Tab 8, page, at the 22 bottom, five (5), at the top, five three two (532), this 23 appears to be an interview recording again by the SIU of 24 Hector Gibeault, and he is asked the question with 25 respect to Dudley:
651 "Has he ever shot a deer? 2 Answer: Yeah. He's only shot one (1) 3 in his life and that was just last 4 year." 5 And that was -- that interview was on -- 6 that -- yes, the document number for that is 10002544 7 Vol. II. And that was an interview conducted by the SIU, 8 which would have been therefore, in ninety (90) -- '95 or 9 '96. It doesn't appear to be dated itself, although 10 there will be a record of when that interview took place, 11 but he does say that Dudley shot a deer one (1). 12 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: What was the 13 document number again in our -- in our Productions? 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: In our Productions, if 15 you look in your index in front there, it indicates it, 16 it is -- 17 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: I'm sorry, in the 18 Index? 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- one (1) -- yes, if 20 you look in the index, -- 21 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Yes, I see it. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- I have set out all of 23 the document numbers. It's 10002544, -- 24 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: 544. 25
661 2 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 3 Q: So he says that -- and he says in 4 that interview that he's a good friend of Dudley's, that 5 he lived in a trailer, and that he knows that Dudley shot 6 one (1) deer in his life just last year. 7 A: I wasn't there, sir. 8 Q: You weren't there? 9 A: No, sir, not then. 10 Q: You weren't at the shoot...? 11 A: If -- if he -- if he shot the deer, I 12 wasn't with him at all, sir, I -- I can't answer that. 13 Q: Did you see deers hanging or on -- 14 hanging by or on Dudley's trailer? 15 A: No, sir, never. 16 Q: When you -- when you were travelling 17 in your car on the road that parallels Highway 21, I take 18 it you would pass Dudley's trailer from time to time? 19 A: Every day, sir. 20 Q: Every day. 21 A: Pretty well, just about. 22 Q: Okay. Well, let me see if I can help 23 you on refreshing your memory on that, because if you 24 turn to Tab 10 of the documents that are there for you, 25 we have the Statement of Daniel Peterson. It's -- it's
671 Document Number 2003-813. 2 Do you see that document -- that 3 statement? 4 And Mr. Peterson says that Dudley had two 5 (2) does and one (1) buck hanging in front of his yard. 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Sorry, what page 7 is that? 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: That's on -- on the 9 first page. You'll see -- about half way down, at one 10 (1) time referring to Dudley in his trailer: 11 "He had two (2) does and a buck hanging 12 from his front yard, so I suspected he 13 was hunting." 14 Did you see -- now Daniel Peterson, so you 15 know, was a -- one (1) of the soldiers that patrolled the 16 reserve and you've told us and -- that these soldiers 17 would stop in and see you from time to time. 18 And he was one (1) of the soldiers that 19 patrolled the reserve, on his statement, between the 20 period July '94 and July '95 and he says he says two (2) 21 does and a buck hanging in Dudley's front yard. 22 A: I've never, even seen one (1), sir. 23 He could have had it in the back yard, but -- 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
681 Q: Yes. 2 A: There were front yard, back yard, he 3 had -- he had opening for both. I never saw any deer 4 whatsoever on that reserve. 5 Q: All right. I gather if -- if Mr. 6 Peterson as one (1) of the soldiers patrolling, as you've 7 indicated, was travelling on that road in his regular 8 patrol and the deer were there, hanging near Dudley's 9 trailer, he would likely see them, wouldn't he? 10 A: If they was hanging, everybody would 11 have seen it, sir, because I know what they look like 12 when they're -- when they're hanging. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Maybe this is a good 14 time to take the morning break. Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 Fifteen (15) minute recess? Is that enough? 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for ten (10) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 11:17 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 11:40 a.m. 25
691 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 5 Q: Mr. George, I'm still on the topic of 6 hunting. I'd ask you to turn to Tab 7 of the Book of 7 Documents. It's a statement taken by the SIU, of a 8 neighbour woman who apparently lived along Army Camp 9 road. Not on the reserve, on the western side of Army 10 Camp road. 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And it's dated October 23, 1995. 13 It's Document Number 1002-576 Volume II. And Janice 14 Morrison says, if you turn to page 5 of that statement, 15 near the top of the page she says, when asked about -- 16 about what she observed, among other things she says, 17 starting about five (5) lines down: 18 "I mean my husband and I would drive 19 down the Army Camp road and tons of 20 times we would see, you know, a few 21 deer at the side of the road and we 22 haven't seen one (1), for I can't 23 remember the last time. It's been a 24 long time. And we've driven past what 25 used to be Dudley's trailer. And we
701 knew this because it said 'Dudley's 2 place' on it." 3 Stopping there. Did -- did his trailer 4 say "Dudley's place" on it. 5 A: Well, I remember seeing it there. 6 Q: Sorry? 7 A: I remember seeing it, sir. 8 Q: Yes, okay. 9 "Right on it. I don't even think it 10 says that on it anymore but there were 11 deer carcases drying out on top of his 12 trailer. So we figured it out for 13 ourselves that that's what they were 14 doing in that -- in their, you know, 15 they're killing deer and you know." 16 Now she says, she and her husband drove 17 past Dudley's trailer, she recognized it as Dudley's 18 trailer with the name "Dudley's place" on it and she saw 19 a deer drying on the trailer. Does that help your -- 20 your memory that there were deer on the trailer? 21 A: I'm afraid she's -- she makes up an 22 awful lot of stories because we know all about her. 23 She's from the -- on fireplace. And I -- I'm afraid I -- 24 I will not listen to what she has to say because she's -- 25 she's very, very hostile against us and always has been.
711 I've never seen any -- any deer anywhere drying out on 2 top of the trailers at any time. 3 Q: In -- in driving around the reserve, 4 did you see deer from time to time? Were there deer on 5 the reserve? 6 A: I've never even run into one (1) 7 anywhere yet. Not on the reserve because there was so 8 much commotion there that -- that they all moved -- I 9 feel -- I feel that they all moved elsewhere. 10 Q: And you didn't see one (1) in the 11 period between May '93 and September '95? 12 A: No, I never ever saw deer there. 13 Q: Okay. Let me ask you if you can turn 14 to Tab 9. This is a statement from a soldier by the name 15 of Claude Pelletier. It's dated May 12, 1997, Document 16 Number 2003-799, Volume XII. And he identifies himself 17 as a soldier who conducted patrols on the reserve between 18 the period August '94 and March '95. 19 And he says... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: If you just find the spot. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
721 2 Q: He says at the very bottom of the 3 first page: 4 "I also recall him, --" 5 Referring to Dudley. 6 "-- on the porch of his trailer firing 7 at deer across Highway 21." 8 Do you see that? He says he, in his -- 9 conducting his patrols: 10 "He saw him on the porch of his trailer 11 firing at deer across Highway 21." 12 Did you see that occur? 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: Did you hear that occur? 15 A: Pardon? 16 Q: Did you hear the sound of Dudley 17 firing at deer across Highway 21 at any time? 18 A: I don't think I've ever seen even a 19 deer cross around there at any time, sir. 20 Q: No, I think what -- 21 A: That's into open field across where 22 he's from and deer are not usually -- usually hit for the 23 open unless he was being chased and he'd be on the run. 24 Q: Mmm hmm. Okay. And did you hear 25 anybody speak of Dudley firing across Highway 21 at deer?
731 Did anybody ever mention that to you? 2 A: I still -- I still maintain that 3 Dudley was scared -- scared of arms and -- and I've never 4 know him to even fire a gun. He told me that himself 5 that he -- he was never brought up -- because he was 6 brought up in the town of Forest. 7 Q: I ask you to turn to Tab 11, please. 8 This is a statement by another soldier who conducted 9 patrols for about a month in August, around August '93 10 and another month in the spring of '94. His statement is 11 dated May 14, 1997, and it's Document Number 2003-888 12 Vol. XII. 13 And he says in his statement, you will 14 see, that he saw geese flying over the reserve in 15 formation in the middle of the day and that the lead 16 goose fell from the formation, and then he heard a 17 gunshot. 18 You'll see that in the second paragraph. 19 Do you see that? Did you ever see geese flying in 20 formation with the lead goose falling from the sky? 21 A: No, sir. 22 Q: Did you know of any hunting of geese 23 at any time while you were on the reserve? 24 A: Well, well I -- I imagine -- I 25 imagine they are at any time, because -- because we all -
741 - we like geese and then -- and we have no restrictions 2 on -- on a reserve, of hunting at any time, sir. 3 Q: I see. So, you're saying that may 4 have happened? 5 A: That could have happened, yes, sir. 6 Q: Okay. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And at the bottom of the page, he 11 says, you'll see at the bottom of the page: 12 "We're going on range patrol to check 13 the perimeters. Once when we were 14 coming through the tank range, we came 15 across three (3) vehicles, tow truck 16 and a car." 17 Now, let's just identify the tank range if 18 we can. You got the map, P-40, and can you help us? Do 19 you know where the tank range was? 20 A: Yes, sir, I do. 21 Q: Could you indicate that for us, 22 please? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
751 MR. IAN ROLAND: Ms. Hensel, maybe you 2 could just describe it in words where that's located on 3 the map, because it's not up on the screen...? 4 THE WITNESS: Just south of the cemetery. 5 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Okay. 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: I think Mr. Millar's 7 going to put it up. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay, it's up on the 12 screen, maybe, now Ms. Hensel, could you mark a number on 13 the map where the Witness has indicated is the tank 14 range? 15 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I've marked it as 16 Number 14. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 18 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Mr. George 19 indicated to me that the tank range is opposite the 20 cemetery and he's drawn a box roughly in this shape, the 21 "C" here indicating the cemetery. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay. So, it's on the 23 south side of the road that runs south of the cemetery 24 and immediately -- it's a box that begins at the cemetery 25 and then is east of the cemetery. Sorry.
761 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: The box that he's 2 drawn for me has the cemetery placed in the middle of the 3 northern side. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay, thank you. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: Now, Mr. George, this statement goes 8 on to say: 9 "There were a bunch of people milling 10 around. Everyone seemed to have a 11 weapon. As we were driving by, I heard 12 a gunshot. I looked around and 13 realized they had shot a goose or a 14 duck that had come up out of the reeds. 15 I never saw any automatic weapons." 16 That's the statement. Would you hear a 17 shot -- be able to hear a shot discharged at that 18 location in the tank range from your trailer or was it 19 too far distant for you to hear such a shot? 20 A: For -- for one (1) thing, yes, it is 21 too far. You wouldn't hear anything because it's -- it's 22 a good mile. 23 Q: I see. 24 A: Almost a mile to -- to the -- to the 25 foothills.
771 Q: And I gather like the last question 2 about hunting geese that it's -- it's possible that this 3 officer saw hunters with weapons, no automatic weapons 4 but with weapons -- hunting and heard and observed one 5 (1) of them shooting a goose or a duck. 6 That's possible, is it? 7 A: I don't think it may -- it might have 8 been -- it might have one (1) of their own people. There 9 were soldiers in there because we never ventured in -- in 10 -- around that place at all, not as -- as he indicates, a 11 bunch of people, because you can -- you can ask some of 12 the boys at any time. And there was a -- a good amount 13 of -- of men gathered at that place anyway. 14 Q: You mean at the tank range? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And how is it you know that? 17 A: Because I been around there all the 18 time, sir. 19 Q: That is your -- this is you driving 20 around in those -- on those roads? 21 A: Yes, sir. I indicated here -- here 22 that there was a -- a road from -- from -- from our site 23 -- from the creek -- there was a road right clean through 24 there to the foothills right close to the cemetery and we 25 drove up that road several times. The tanks are still
781 there. 2 Q: Let me take -- take you next to Tab 15 3 and this is a report from the OPP with respect to an 4 incident that apparently occurred at Camp Ipperwash on 5 December 11, 1995. This is after the shooting incident 6 in -- in September. And it's an OPP report to Chief 7 Superintendent Coles, do you see that -- dated December 8 12, 1995 and it is Document Number 2001403 Volume X. 9 Now, this is a report of an incident that 10 occurred the previous day, December the 11th, in which an 11 individual by the name of Daniel Michael Williams, 12 apparently was involved in an accident. 13 Do you -- do you know or did you know 14 someone by the name of Daniel Michael Williams? 15 A: Not -- not in the Stony Pointers, sir. 16 There's no -- there's no Daniel Williams. 17 Q: Did you know someone who visited the 18 Stony Point Reserve? 19 A: I -- I couldn't tell you; there's many 20 people visit us there. 21 Q: Now -- 22 A: At all times. 23 Q: And this document, you'll see, speaks 24 of a hunting accident in which Mr. Williams and others 25 were hunting on the reserve on December the 11th, '95,
791 and he apparently slipped on some ice and discharged his 2 .410 gauge shotgun, wounding himself in the abdomen. 3 A: I don't know nothing about it, sir, 4 because I -- I don't -- it -- it was not publicized 5 anywhere the I know of. 6 Q: Did you hear about it -- the 7 incident? 8 A: No, sir, I didn't. 9 Q: All right, Mr. George. Let me then 10 to another topic apart from hunting and that's the sound 11 of gunshots. Now, let me just see if I can understand 12 your evidence. 13 Do we have it that you don't recall 14 hearing any gunshots, even single gunshots, at any time 15 between the period May '93 and September '95 on the 16 reserve? 17 A: I never heard any -- any guns at all. 18 Not on the reserve, sir. Or not on the camp, I should 19 say. 20 Q: Believe me, Mr. George, I -- this is 21 an entirely respectful question of you. But in -- in 22 that period 1993 to 1995, how was your hearing? 23 A: Very good, sir. 24 Q: Very good. Thank you. All right, 25 let me take you if I could, then to Tab 1. And this is a
801 -- a statement by Sergeant Michael Blackburn, one (1) of 2 the soldiers that conducted patrols, and he did so 3 between the fall of '93 and the end of July '95 on four 4 (4) tours. 5 I assume from that, that -- that this 6 wasn't an entire period. It -- he goes on to say the 7 tours were approximately two (2) to two and a half (2 8 1/2) months, so between eight (8) and ten (10) months in 9 that period of time, he was one (1) of the military 10 officers that conducted patrols on the reserve. 11 And he says that on numerous occasions you 12 could hear single gun shots at night. 13 Now, did you ever recall -- does that help 14 you? Did you ever recall hearing any single gun shots at 15 night. 16 A: I couldn't understand why they would 17 be, sir. I don't -- I've never heard of any. I never 18 heard any -- any -- any guns shoot anywhere at nights. 19 Q: Yes. Let me ask you, what was -- 20 what's the distance approximately, from your cabin, from 21 your trailer cabin, to the barracks? How far was that? 22 A: Probably be about five (5), six 23 hundred (600) yards. 24 Q: All right. And if there were gun 25 shots fired into the air in the parade square which we
811 see in the middle of the barracks area, I take it you'd 2 likely hear those from your cabin, would you not? 3 A: If I was outside, I would. 4 Q: Yes. Sergeant Blackburn says once in 5 a while, one (1) of the natives would come up to the 6 parade square and fire rounds in the air near the 7 buildings. And he says these were natives in vehicles. 8 Did -- did you -- can you recall hearing 9 any gun shots coming from the barracks area? 10 A: Never, sir. I don't -- as -- as far 11 as I know, these boys here, they -- they wouldn't drive 12 in there looking for trouble because we never look for 13 trouble, sir, never. 14 Q: Let me take you, if I could, to Tab 2 15 and this is a interview report from another of the 16 soldiers that patrolled on the reserve and he says -- 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, a 18 lot of these documents that are being referred to -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll have 20 to speak in the mike. 21 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: If we can get the 22 Volume and the Document Number we could follow them. We 23 don't all have this -- 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm sorry, I will do 25 that.
821 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Okay, thank you. 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: I just forgot to -- 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Okay. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: I said to My Friend, I'm 5 sorry. I intended he and he's to remind me if I don't. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: That -- is it the last 8 one that I didn't give you. 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: The one from 10 Blackburn. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. Let me give 12 you that, if I could. If -- in fairness to me, Mr. 13 Commissioner and I -- I'm not critical of -- of My Friend 14 for asking this, but we did send this information to all 15 Counsel last -- a few days ago. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have an 17 index, and the index indicates the document number. 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Yeah, but he sent them 20 out over the weekend. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Make 24 reference to the document. 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm not being critical.
831 I just wanted some credit for doing more than simply 2 giving you them today. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 6 Q: I think the number for Sergeant 7 Blackburn is 2003-339 Volume XII. Now we've moved onto 8 Tab 2 and this is of Steven Druken, D-R-U-K-E-N, and it's 9 a statement dated September 23, '97 and the document 10 number is 2003-464, Volume 12. And he says, let me just 11 deal with this because it's a short interview report, he 12 says: 13 "I was at Ipperwash in July of '93 and 14 stayed for two (2) months. I heard 15 gunfire once in a while but nothing 16 close." 17 And then he talks about one (1) occasion. 18 He says: 19 "On one (1) occasion I was on the 20 balcony of our building. I was 21 observing with binoculars and caught a 22 glimpse of a bright light. It was a 23 Native pointing a rifle with a scope 24 right at me. I later found out it was 25 Dudley George. He was standing by a
841 clump of trees. 2 Once he saw that I had seen him, he 3 just turned away." 4 A: What balcony would that be, sir. 5 Q: Well, I don't know and we'll have to 6 ask -- 7 A: There's no balconies in that camp 8 that I know of. 9 Q: -- we'll have to ask Steven Druken 10 but I suspect he's probably talking about the observation 11 post, which I gather is -- is an observation post that 12 was staffed by soldiers at the time there to observe the 13 activities around, including those activities that they 14 could see in your direction. 15 A: At night, sir? 16 Q: He doesn't tell us whether it was at 17 night or not. But do you have any recollection of that 18 incident at all? 19 A: No, sir. It never -- never happened 20 as far as I know. 21 Q: Okay. And did you ever hear of or 22 see a rifle on the reserve or hear of a rifle on the 23 reserve with a telescope? With a scope? 24 A: I've never ever saw one, sir. 25 Q: You never saw one, okay.
851 A: There was several -- the Army 2 themselves had several, sir. 3 Q: Mmm hmm. 4 A: And -- and periodically I heard fire 5 from them because I know of several occasions where -- 6 where they fired randomly at places. I know several 7 stories, sir, about -- about their conduct there while -- 8 while being sent there for the summer. Very bad conduct 9 at that -- 10 Q: Mmm hmm. All right. Let me turn to 11 the next tab, Tab 4. This is a statement by another 12 soldier, Robert Joseph Gallant, it's dated July 21, '97, 13 Document Number 2003504, Volume XII. 14 And Mr. Gallant indicates that he served 15 two (2) tours at the Ipperwash reserve. The first one 16 July 24 to September 1, '94 and the second April 13 to 17 May 24, '95. 18 And he says: 19 "It was pretty common to hear gunfire. 20 We would sometimes hear automatic 21 weapons fire but I never found any 22 casings." 23 Now, did you ever hear any automatic 24 weapon fire at all? 25 A: I have said time and again, there was
861 never ever -- never any of that kind of goings on by our 2 people. 3 Q: Mmm hmm. Well was there any goings 4 on by anybody firing automatic weapons at the time that 5 you occupied the camp? 6 A: Could have been many times, sir, 7 because -- because their canteen is open and they get all 8 drunk sometimes and they do foolish things. I observed 9 some of that, sir. 10 Q: I see. So you observed -- while you 11 were occupying -- while you were occupying the reserve 12 are you saying that you did hear automatic weapon fire 13 coming from the barracks? 14 A: No I didn't. I said there could be. 15 Q: It could be -- 16 A: Could be, I don't know. 17 Q: All right. You didn't observe any -- 18 A: I -- I heard them when they were 19 using the ranges, I heard them fire from my place when 20 they were using the ranges. So -- so I pretty well know. 21 Q: Sorry. Who was using the ranges? 22 A: The Army, sir. 23 Q: I -- I thought they didn't use the 24 ranges after the occupation? Now do you say the Army was 25 using the ranges after your occupation?
871 A: Was this after the occupation, sir? 2 Q: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: I think you're 4 referring to a period before, Mr. -- 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: No, after the occupation 6 of the reserve, I think, which is in May -- 7 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Oh, after the 8 occupation, before the incident. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, May '93. 10 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: This is up to -- 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: This a period that post 12 dates May '93. 13 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: -- up to May '95. 14 That's fine. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The Army was still 16 there. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: I understand it, but I 18 didn't understand that the Army was using the ranges in 19 that period, maybe I'm wrong. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You may be. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: Is that what you're saying, that the 25 Army was using the ranges between May '93 and September
881 '95? 2 A: There -- there was several army -- 3 even -- even the -- even the, what we call the -- the 4 military, the weekend from -- from -- from their 5 different cities. 6 Q: Mmm hmm. 7 A: They come there weekends. 8 Q: And they did that in the period that 9 you were there for May '93 -- 10 A: Lots of times, sir, lots of times. 11 Q: -- to September. And so, I gather 12 then, what you're saying is you did hear gunfire from 13 time to time, but you assumed or saw that it was the 14 Military? 15 A: I -- I prepare -- I -- I prepared -- 16 the -- the targets, I prepared everything for them, while 17 I was caretaker there. 18 Q: I understand. But we're not talking 19 about that period, Mr. George, we're talking about the 20 period of time from May '93 to September '95. That's the 21 period of time we're talking about. 22 A: Well, there's even OPP that used that 23 for target practice many times, you know, I can't tell 24 the exact date, sir, there, because I haven't got the 25 book with me.
891 Q: Mr. George, I'm sorry, I don't want 2 to confuse you, but I'm not talking about any period 3 before you and the other occupiers came into the reserve 4 in -- in May '93, only the time after you and the other 5 occupiers took up your residences and locations, as 6 you've described them, after May '93. 7 And the question I want clear on the 8 record is: Did you hear gunfire by anybody, including 9 the Military or OPP, on the reserve, after May '93? 10 A: Not to my recollection, sir. 11 Q: Okay, thank you. 12 Maybe if I could take you to Tab 6, it's a 13 statement of Corporal Wendy Kurt, again, one (1) of the 14 military patrol soldiers. It's Tab 6. It's Document 15 Number 2003464, Vol. XII. Her name is spelled "K-U-R-T". 16 And she says it wasn't uncommon to hear gunshots coming 17 from the range areas both day and night. 18 Do you -- do you remember a female officer 19 visiting you from time to time? 20 A: At my -- at my -- at my place, sir? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: You don't? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. She was there, she says in her
901 statement in February and March 1994, and that it wasn't 2 uncommon to hear gunshots coming from the range areas 3 both day and night. 4 Again, I take it that's something that you 5 didn't hear, although you lived between the -- the -- the 6 barracks and the range area, didn't you? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Yes. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'll have to check that 13 number. What is it? Sorry, it's 3661. I'm corrected. 14 Thank you. I was told there was one (1) error in this 15 listing of numbers and we've now discovered it. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 18 Q: I ask you to turn to Tab 10, please. 19 This is the statement of another soldier, Daniel 20 Peterson; we've already referred to his statement in 21 another context but I'll give you the volume number and 22 document number again. For the record, it's 2003813, 23 Volume XII. 24 And you'll see in his statement he says 25 that he heard, a lot of gunfire, not only hunting rifles
911 but also automatic weapons between the period July '94 2 and July '95, which is the period that he served as a 3 patrol soldier. And he goes on to say, 4 "Didn't hear at least a couple of 5 rounds of gunfire every day, you knew 6 something was up because it was too 7 quiet." 8 Well, that's not consistent at all, sir, 9 with your evidence. Could you have any -- can you help 10 us why these soldiers who were -- whose duty it was to 11 patrol the area and to make observations and, I assume 12 record observations. 13 We haven't got the DND documents and logs 14 which I gather haven't yet been produced to the 15 Commission that will likely show, we assume, recordings 16 of these observations, but why it is that they would make 17 and presumably record such observations and sounds when 18 you say that you couldn't hear any such sounds. 19 A: I hate to call anybody a liar but -- 20 but I think -- I think he's lying, same -- same as the 21 rest of them. 22 Q: I see. 23 Q: Because I've known them people one (1) 24 heck of a long time. They even told me that they -- they 25 stole a truck and buried it and it's in there somewhere.
921 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 2 minute, Mr. George. Counsel has an observation. 3 MR. JULIAN ROY: I hesitate to interrupt 4 My Friend, Mr. Commissioner, but in my respectful 5 submission that's an improper question to ask a Witness 6 to comment on the credibility or the truthfulness of 7 another witness. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. JULIAN ROY: I think that goes too 10 far, even given that latitude that we give at commissions 11 of inquiry, in my respectful submission. Julian Roy. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 13 which party? 14 MR. JULIAN ROY: Aboriginal Legal 15 Services, Toronto. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sir, I didn't ask him to 17 comment on the credibility, he did that. I asked him to 18 explain if there was an explanation and that was the 19 explanation he gave. I didn't ask him to comment on the 20 credibility. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 You asked a question; he's answered it. I think we'll 23 move on. Are you almost through with your cross- 24 examination or are you -- 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: No, I've got some
931 distance to get yet, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You still 3 do? 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It seems to 6 me that you're doing this to be fair to the Witness. 7 You're asking, in many cases, the same question with 8 respect to different statements again and again. He's 9 given you an answer. 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 12 expect that the answer's going to be any different even 13 though the statements are different. Is it necessary to 14 go through each statement in this way in order to be fair 15 to the Witness? 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I'll move on then 17 to some other topics if you're directing me to do that, 18 sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think -- I 20 think you've been fair to the Witness -- 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 23 indicated that there are statements which say things that 24 seem to be contradictory. 25
941 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: All right. Mr. George, let me just 3 then summarize that there are a number of other 4 statements that -- as well -- that speak of -- and this 5 is from the soldiers -- that speak of hearing the sound 6 of gunfire while they were carrying out their duties on 7 patrol and, as I gather also, while they were at their 8 observation post. 9 And those -- those statements indicate 10 that it was pretty common to hear the sound of gunfire. 11 A: Sir -- sir, they forget that -- that 12 they use the -- the adjacent field right leading to -- to 13 Pinery Park itself. They used all that section in there 14 for night manoeuvres. They done it, there was firing 15 night -- night manoeuvres all -- all over the reserve. 16 How can they say that it is from the natives? 17 Q: But sir, sorry, let me just understand 18 that answer. Are you saying that the military conducted 19 night manoeuvres during the period after the occupation 20 in May of '93? 21 A: As far as I know they always did. 22 Q: I see. They always did after the 23 occupation in May '93? 24 A: Well no, not exactly, but there was 25 weekend soldiers that come there and done that.
951 Q: After May '93. 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And they conducted weekend manoeuvres 4 after May '93? 5 A: As far as I -- as far as I know. 6 There'd be periods -- periods of time that they'd come 7 there. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: You can check it out, I don't know for 10 sure. 11 Q: And did you see those soldiers on 12 manoeuvres after May '93? 13 A: Yes, sir, I have many stories about 14 them. I've see them. 15 Q: And did those manoeuvrers carry on for 16 some period of time? How long did they carry on for? 17 A: Not too far till -- till they -- till 18 they -- they -- they went somewhere else from -- from 19 that time, because they -- they didn't come to the camp 20 any more. 21 Q: And when did they stop coming to the 22 camp? Was it in '93 or '94 or '95. Can you help us? 23 A: I don't remember anybody being there 24 in '95, but prior to that I think they was -- they were 25 still -- still using and occupying.
961 Q: You think they were conducting 2 military manoeuvres in '94? 3 A: Well, they -- they could have been. 4 Q: No, I -- 5 A: I don't remember that far back, sir. 6 Not completely. 7 Q: Okay, that's -- is there any other 8 explanation for these soldiers indicating in their 9 statements that they heard gun shots apart from what you 10 say may have been military manoeuvres? 11 A: Say that again, sir. 12 Q: Apart from the possibility of some 13 military manoeuvrers during this period, were there any - 14 - is there any other explanation you can provide us for 15 them hearing the sound of guns -- gunfire in this period? 16 A: In -- in adjacent properties, sir, 17 that's easy to hear people -- people firing. North -- 18 not north but west, east, and south of there. There's 19 many times that -- that -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- the people that lived around 22 there. They fired shots also. 23 Q: All right. Let me ask a question 24 about automatic weapons because you were asked about that 25 in chief and you've said that you -- you recognize
971 automatic weapons. You know what they look like, right? 2 A: Sure I do, sir. 3 Q: Sorry? 4 A: I do. 5 Q: You do? 6 A: I -- I know weapons. I have quite an 7 amount of them, sir. 8 Q: And you know the sound of automatic 9 weapons? 10 A: I sure do. 11 Q: And you know that automatic -- 12 automatic weapons and the firing of automatic weapons may 13 involve green tracer bullets, as well? 14 A: Not always. 15 Q: Sometimes. 16 A: Just at times when -- when they're -- 17 it all depends on what manouevre they're doing or what 18 they're -- what is necessary for them to -- there are 19 tracers in -- in all weapons if -- if they -- if they 20 need them. 21 Q: So they sometimes involve green 22 tracer bullets? 23 A: Well, the only tracer I've ever seen 24 was the red ones fired out. 25 Q: I see.
981 A: I didn't see any green ones. Flares 2 I have. 3 Q: Yes. Because we've already looked at 4 -- at Daniel Peterson, a solider, his statement which is 5 -- which we've referred to. It's at Tab 10. And he says 6 that one (1) night he was in the observation tower and he 7 saw automatic weapon fire. He could see green tracer 8 bullets. 9 A: I never even heard of any, sir. 10 Q: You haven't? And I take it you 11 didn't see anything that would look like a green tracer 12 bullet? 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: All right, let me turn to then, the 15 possession of firearms, not the sound of gunfire, but the 16 possession of firearms by occupiers or by Dudley George 17 himself and what the statements say of those. And see if 18 you can help us with those, understanding why these 19 statements would indicate the observations that are shown 20 in the statements. 21 If you turn to Tab 5, you will see the 22 statement of --of an individual by the name of Al Grech, 23 G-R-E-C-H. He -- appears to be a -- a citizen, a 24 civilian. 25 Do you know this individual?
991 A: No, sir. 2 Q: All right. Is -- yes. The Document 3 Number is 1004489 Volume III and he says in his statement 4 that on September the 3rd, '95 he met Dudley George who 5 was in a vehicle on the camp road near the park and that 6 he observed a high powered rifle hanging in the back 7 window of his vehicle. 8 And he describes the vehicle as a Ford 9 vehicle that had painted on it "OPP WHO" and that on the 10 trunk the words, "Don't laugh, your daughter could be 11 inside", that Mr. George -- Dudley George was with a 12 female and that he introduced himself as Dudley. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: It's page 117 of the document, thank 17 you. 18 Now can -- can you help us in how this 19 individual might see a -- or indicates he observed a high 20 powered rifle hanging in the back window of a car in 21 which Dudley George was an occupant, maybe the driver, we 22 don't know from the statement on September 3, '95? 23 A: I'd have to be awful close to 24 recognize anything hanging out the window for God's 25 sakes.
1001 Q: So -- and you were -- you were around 2 and about the -- that area I take it, of the reserve 3 around September 3, '95? This is three (3) days before 4 the shooting? 5 A: I -- I probably was, yes, sir. 6 Q: And did you see Dudley from time to 7 time as an occupant of the vehicle described? That's the 8 one with "OPP WHO" written on it? 9 A: He could have been -- he could have 10 been, sir. He wasn't restricted anywhere but he wasn't 11 driving because he told me himself he don't drive. 12 Q: I see. Okay. And I take it you 13 can't explain, can you, how this witness would or this 14 individual would state that there was a high powered 15 rifle in the back of the vehicle, hanging in the back of 16 the vehicle? 17 A: What time of the day, sir. 18 Q: It doesn't -- it appears to be during 19 the day. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Come up, 21 come up Mr. Worme. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, you 23 know, I hate to rise and interrupt My Friend, but I think 24 that the questions that he's asked are becoming somewhat 25 repetitive. This Witness has provided answers as best he
1011 could to this. I don't think, as you correctly pointed 2 out earlier, that the questions or the answers to the 3 questions are going to necessarily change. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 5 -- I think that -- go ahead Mr. Roland. I think that's 6 an important observation. I think you've indicated you 7 want to be fair to the witness and I think you've been 8 very fair to the witness. 9 I think it's important that the witness 10 know that there are contradictory statements and he be 11 given the opportunity to comment on them. But I think 12 there's a limit to how far you go with that in order to 13 be fair and useful for this Inquiry. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: Well let me turn to another area. If 18 we turn to Tab 4 you'll see a statement of another 19 soldier, Robert Joseph Gallant. It's Document Number 20 2003504, Volume XII. And he says that he saw damage done 21 to a building on the grenade range that was done by a 22 shotgun or high powered rifle. 23 Let me ask you this, do you recognize what 24 he's talking about? Was there a building on the grenade 25 range?
1021 A: Yes, sir, there was. 2 Q: And did you observe damage done to 3 that building by what appeared to have been -- been a 4 shotgun or high powered rifle? 5 A: There was several holes in there. I 6 couldn't tell what was -- whether it was a rifle or 7 whether it was pierced or what was the cause of it 8 because -- because they set fire to that building. That 9 was a building right there -- right there used for the 10 ranges. 11 Q: All right. And was that building, do 12 you -- to your knowledge, was that building damaged by 13 gunfire, high-powered rifle, or shotgun at the time of 14 the occupation in May '93 or not? Do you know? 15 A: I've always known there was holes -- 16 holes in that building because I worked in it from the 17 time from 1949 on, sir. I was there -- as a soldier I 18 was there several times. 19 Q: And so what you say is that building 20 had been damaged before the occupation? Is that what 21 you're telling us? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: All right, let me carry on with Mr. 24 Gallant's statement. Corporal Gallant says that: 25 "Around the end of April '95, Dudley
1031 shot his transformer and it was leaking 2 PCBs. He wanted it removed and it was 3 removed by the military." 4 Do you recall around the end of April '95, 5 an incident in which Dudley or someone shot his 6 transformer at his trailer? 7 A: I heard about it, but I don't know 8 nothing about the shooting. 9 Q: And, tell us what you heard. 10 A: I just heard that the transformer was 11 shot by someone. 12 Q: I see. And did you hear that it was 13 leaking PCBs? 14 A: Pardon? 15 Q: Did you hear that it was leaking 16 PCBs? 17 A: Not necessarily, no, but -- but I 18 imagine it would. 19 Q: All right. And did you see or learn 20 that it had been removed by the military? 21 A: I don't know who it was, I don't 22 know, I -- I -- I took it for granted that it would be 23 the -- the Hydro people. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1041 2 Q: Let me take you to Tab 9, it's the 3 statement of another soldier, Claude Pelletier. It's 4 Document Number 20003799, Volume XII, and he says, in his 5 statement: 6 "On several occasions I personally 7 observed the Natives with their guns to 8 go hunting or take pot shots at the 9 build-up area. I observed Dudley on 10 more than one (1) occasion, in fact, 11 many occasions, doing this. He had a 12 rifle, the calibre I can't tell you. I 13 -- base -- I'm basing this on the sound 14 of the report of the weapon, it didn't 15 sound like a shotgun. On one (1) 16 occasion I remember Dudley driving a 17 red farm tractor." 18 You told us there was a red farm tractor. 19 "He got down from it, he had a rifle in 20 his hands, it -- it was shouldered, he 21 panned right at the observation post I 22 was in and then he fired a round into 23 the woods." 24 Now, did you hear about, I know you didn't 25 see that incident, you've told us, did you hear anybody
1051 speak of that incident, in which -- 2 A: It was -- it was never reported that 3 I know of. 4 Q: Sorry...? 5 A: It was never reported, sir, anywhere 6 in the -- within the barracks or -- or -- or with us. 7 Q: You didn't hear about that incident? 8 A: It was never reported. 9 Q: Reported by who? 10 A: By the people of the -- that -- 11 that's -- that your reading from there. 12 Q: I see. They didn't report it to you? 13 A: No. Not to one (1) of us, there's 14 several of us that live there that -- that -- that were 15 looking after everything, there's lots of people there. 16 Q: I see. 17 A: And -- and I would have known if -- 18 if something like that was reported to -- to us, because 19 there were very careful with us. Also, there was a lot 20 of goll darsh (phonetic) that discrimination against us, 21 as trying to pin things on us. 22 Q: So, you expected if that incident had 23 occurred that it would have been reported by the military 24 officers to you? 25 A: It should have been reported
1061 everywhere. 2 Q: I see. 3 A: Even -- even -- even to Kettle Point 4 it should have been reported to, although Kettle Point 5 has nothing to do with this. 6 Q: All right. Let me take you to the 7 same statement, another incident, this is New Years' Eve 8 -- 1994, he says: 9 "New Years' Eve of 1994, they came on 10 the Base at twelve sharp." 11 A: I see. 12 Q: I assume that's midnight. 13 "Dudley was driving a vehicle. I was 14 with Sergeant Henderson. We went 15 around the Base and we had been 16 instructed not to do anything. I was 17 trying to avoid this vehicle. He was 18 driving a vehicle like a Bronco. I was 19 pulled off of the parade square when 20 Dudley drove right into our cruiser, 21 Sergeant Henderson got out of the car 22 and Dudley gunned his vehicle at 23 Sergeant Henderson, and drove at him. 24 He missed him by about three (3) feet, 25 he drove right over the lawns and
1071 curbs." 2 Now, was that incident reported to you? 3 A: Never heard of it, I -- I keep 4 telling you, I -- I -- I've never known Dudley to drive. 5 Q: Mmm hmm. All right. And you would 6 have expected that incident, you say, to be reported to 7 you? 8 A: Well, it should have been reported 9 somewhere if that's the case. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: It should have been reported even to 12 the military that they're -- that they're serving. 13 That's a very serious -- very -- very serious accusation 14 for -- for the military, as far as I know, because I've 15 been in the military for quite some time, sir. 16 Q: All right, well I'm sure we'll hear 17 from them. Let me ask you about an incident involving a 18 hydro pole. There is reported again by Cole Pelletier in 19 the same statement that one (1) day he saw Dudley taking 20 an axe to the telephone pole right in front of his 21 trailer. 22 Do you recall an incident in which -- or 23 an occasion on which -- Dudley chopped down the telephone 24 or hydro pole in front of his trailer? 25 A: No, sir.
1081 Q: Did you see that that had been done? 2 A: No, I don't recall, sir, but that -- 3 that's probably -- the hydro pole you're talking about -- 4 there was a -- they had a transformer on it and it was 5 shot, it was dismantled. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: I couldn't tell you for sure. I'd -- 8 I'd notice when I drive there. 9 Q: Did you notice that someone had 10 chopped down the hydro pole? 11 A: No, I didn't but I will check. 12 Q: It may be a little late but you didn't 13 notice it at the time.? 14 A: No, I didn't. 15 Q: Okay. 16 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, 17 while my Friend is checking his notes, I wonder if, in 18 being fair to the Witness, we have not created the 19 impression that the opportunity to comment on any 20 inconsistencies or possible inconsistencies or, indeed, 21 everything that anybody may have said in the past ten 22 (10) years has not created, in his mind, the impression 23 that he has a duty to explain any inconsistencies or to 24 explain events of which he had -- has already said he has 25 no personal knowledge and I don't think that is fair to
1091 him or fair to the process, with respect, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 3 Mr. Henderson. 4 THE WITNESS: I -- I would like to hear, 5 sir, the -- the rest because to my notion, why are all 6 these soldiers picking on Dudley? Dudley was not the 7 only one there, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right, 9 Mr. Roland, are you almost done now? Because I do think 10 there's been a great deal of repetition that hasn't been 11 as helpful as it might otherwise have been -- or helpful, 12 but where are you in respect to your cross-examination? 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I think I can move 14 on if -- if -- I take it, Mr. Commissioner, what you're 15 saying is, that you find none of this helpful and if 16 that's the case -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 18 say -- 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- I'll move on. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I didn't 21 say I find none of it helpful -- 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: You don't find any more 23 helpful, I take it. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 25 the point that you intended to make has been made and --
1101 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, all right. Well, 2 if that's your wish, sir, I will move on. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 The point that you indicated, just to complete that, you 5 wanted to make sure that the fact that there other 6 statements may be inconsistent with Mr. George's 7 testimony and that you were being fair by referring to 8 some of them, I think that's been done. I remind you 9 that Mr. George is eighty-three (83) years old -- 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: Eighty-four (84), sir. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Eighty-four 12 (84), I'm sorry, eighty-four (84) and there's a limit to 13 how much he can -- how much detail -- 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: I think Mr. George has 15 been an admirable witness, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He has been. 17 He's been very, very good. 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: In fact, I was very 19 impressed at the way in which he was able to identify the 20 observation post. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But I don't 22 think it's fair to put the whole case out through this 23 witness. There are lots of witnesses yet to come and 24 lots of opportunities to tell the story that you are 25 trying to tell. So, I think we should move on.
1111 MR. IAN ROLAND: As is your wish, sir. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 4 Q: Let me, if I could, then, take you, 5 sir, to another topic. I'm going to ask Commission 6 Counsel to put up on the screen a video still. 7 I've asked Commission Counsel to put up on 8 the screen a video still that has been produced in these 9 proceedings by disclosure from what appears to be a 10 camera that was, I gather, surreptitiously placed in the 11 maintenance building at the park and this still is 12 something that it was recorded at 2:51 a.m. on September 13 6th, 1995. 14 And you have -- you have, sir, a hard copy 15 of it. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: And it appears to be a still video 20 photograph of a male person with -- it appears a pony 21 tail and wearing a vest, maybe a camouflage, it's hard to 22 tell, vest. And in his -- what appears to be his left 23 hand, carry what certainly appears to be, or could be a 24 firearm. 25 And he also, I think it's fair to say,
1121 looking at it, Mr. George, that he -- it appears he's 2 smoking a cigarette, I think that's perhaps a fair 3 conclusion from looking at it. 4 A: It don't look like that to me, sir. 5 Q: Pardon? 6 A: It don't look that way to me, sir, 7 cause there's no such thing as a cigarette out of his 8 mouth. 9 Q: Well, you may be right, it's hard to 10 tell from this -- 11 A: It's a very poor -- it's a very poor 12 photograph, sir. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Can't even tell whether it's a stick 15 or a gun or what it is. It's impossible for anyone to 16 tell. 17 Q: You would agree with me, wouldn't you, 18 Mr. George, that he appears to be carrying it in a manner 19 that one would carry a gun? 20 A: I would carry my stick that way, sir, 21 sometimes. 22 Q: I see. Okay. And can you help us 23 identify who this individual may be? 24 A: No, sir, I can't. 25 Q: Do you recognize that person, at all?
1131 A: No, sir. 2 Q: Let me give you a list that we have 3 from document 2000 -- sorry -- it isn't -- sorry I don't 4 have the document, but a list of persons who I understand 5 were observed by the OPP from September 4, '93 at the 6 Park and see if this -- this image appears to be any one 7 (1) of the following? All right? 8 Let me just go through this with you, if I 9 could. Roderick George? Do you know Roderick George? 10 A: Yes, sir, I know him. 11 Q: Does this appear to be Roderick 12 George? 13 A: No sir, I couldn't tell you for sure. 14 I told you the picture there is very, very disturbing, as 15 a matter of fact, it's not made right. 16 Q: I see. 17 A: I couldn't tell you who that is. 18 Q: Did you know any -- 19 A: You may have a chance to ask some of 20 the other people that's more closely associated with him. 21 Q: All right. Well we know some things 22 about this, it appears to be a male person, it appears to 23 have a pony tail, not -- of lighter built as opposed to 24 heavy build. 25 Perhaps we can exclude some people that
1141 this does not appear to be; and would you exclude 2 Roderick Georg? 3 A: Yes, I would, Roderick George is much 4 smaller. 5 Q: All right. Would you exclude Dudley 6 George? 7 A: Completely, sir. 8 Q: Would you exclude Stewart George? 9 A: No, Stewart George as far as I know is 10 tall and -- tall and slender. 11 Q: So, would you exclude him, or not? 12 A: I would exclude him, sir. 13 Q: All right. Would you exclude Abraham 14 George? 15 A: Abraham was taller than that, sir. 16 Q: All right. Fair enough. Would you 17 exclude Timothy George? 18 A: Timothy George is a very, very slim 19 young fellow. 20 Q: Yes, would you exclude him or not, 21 looking at this? 22 A: I would exclude him, sir. 23 Q: Fair enough. Les Jewel? 24 A: It doesn't look like Les Jewel, at 25 all, whatsoever.
1151 Q: All right. What about Russel Jewel? 2 A: No, they're both -- they're both very 3 fair people and I don't think they were even there at the 4 time, that I know of. 5 Q: Are they -- 6 A: I know they left -- 7 Q: -- were they the non-Band member 8 brothers that you were referring to earlier? 9 A: Yes, sir, they're the ones that -- 10 that -- and they haven't returned since. They were there 11 for a long time on -- working for somebody else that I 12 know of -- that I don't even know. 13 Q: Would you exclude Bruce Manning? 14 A: Yes, I would. 15 Q: How about Harvey Manning? 16 A: Yes, I would. 17 Q: Glenn George? 18 A: Glenn George, yes I'd exclude him 19 completely. 20 Q: You'd exclude him. Hubert George ? 21 A: I -- no, I couldn't say that there 22 was -- Hubert George -- 23 Q: It might be? 24 A: No. Hubert George never wore -- wore 25 hair that way. He always had a -- had a good decent
1161 haircut. 2 Q: Fair enough, okay. Maynard George? 3 A: Maynard George wore long hair like 4 that but it doesn't appear to be him there. 5 Q: All right. Isaac Doxtator, Buck? 6 A: No. Buck always -- Buck always wore 7 the same -- same headgear anytime I've seen him. Band 8 around his head and -- or army looking clothes and stuff 9 like that. No, I'd exclude him completely. 10 Q: All right. Albert Manning? 11 A: No, sir. I'd exclude him completely. 12 Q: Okay. Glen Bressette? 13 A: I don't who -- who that would be. I 14 don't know Glen Bressette. 15 Q: Okay. Robert Isaac? 16 A: No, not that I know of, sir. I -- I 17 still -- I'm not sure on that one. I -- I couldn't -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's an 19 extremely photo, Mr. Roland. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: I understand but it's -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's an 22 extremely poor photo. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- it's -- Mr. 24 Commissioner, I think it's -- it's fair to say that it's 25 hard to recognize who it is but I think it's also fair to
1171 say that you could exclude individuals from this -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He seems to 3 be doing it. But -- 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- from this photo. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He seems to 6 be doing it but -- but it's not a very accurate or 7 scientific method and it's an extremely poor photo. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 10 difficult -- if he were asked if he knows who it is and I 11 think he was -- he doesn't know who it is but all right 12 if you could -- 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, what I'm reading 14 from is a list and it's Document Number 2001384 that the 15 OPP identified as occupiers of the park at the relevant 16 time. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And this 18 photo was taken on September the 6th of '95? 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: It was. Yes. In -- at 20 2:51 a.m. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 22 You're almost at the end of the list. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: I am. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
1181 Q: Abraham George Sr.? 2 A: Abraham George Sr. was a very tall 3 man, sir. 4 Q: So you'd exclude him? 5 A: Completely. 6 Q: Kevin Pine (phonetic)? 7 A: I don't know of Kevin Pine 8 whatsoever. 9 Q: Nicholas Cotrelle? 10 A: Nicholas Cotrelle was very -- very 11 small in features, sir. 12 Q: Would you exclude him or not? 13 A: I would exclude him, sir. 14 Q: All right. And finally, Clayton 15 Morris George? 16 A: I can't recall him at all. Because I 17 forget a lot of these young people, sir. 18 Q: Okay, thank you. Finally, I'm going 19 to ask you to see if you can identify two (2) weapons. 20 They were provided in the photo portfolio -- 21 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Are you going to mark 22 this? 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, we should this as - 24 - My Friend is probably right. We should mark this as an 25 exhibit for the purposes of identification? That's the
1191 still of the video from Camera 1 at 2:51 a.m. on 2 September 6, '95. And the evidence I think will be that 3 it's taken in the maintenance shed. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Will we be 5 able to identify this photo? 6 MR. DONALD WORME: We may be able to, Mr. 7 Commissioner. I think it's -- I think it might be as 8 useful if we were simply to produce all -- all three (3) 9 photographs that Mr. Roland wants and then maybe mark the 10 disk. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Subject to 12 identification? 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Subject to 14 identification I think as he's quite properly put 15 forward. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't 17 you introduce them that way, Mr. Roland. What's the 18 exhibit number? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-42. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't 21 you mark them 42 A, B and C and we'll see if we can -- 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: We'll mark this as P- 23 42A? 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-42A: Camera 1, September 06, '95
1201 2:51:41 still photo of a male 2 person with a ponytail in 3 maintenance shed 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 6 Q: All right, if you could look at the 7 photograph of what has been identified in the material 8 produced as a Cooey .22 calibre rifle model 39. 9 And let me tell you that the evidence, as 10 I understand it, will be that this weapon was turned over 11 to the OPP on September 18, '95, that is after the 12 incident in which Dudley George was -- was shot and 13 killed. 14 And it was turned over to the OPP by a 15 First Nation Constable Murray Bressette who informed the 16 OPP officer to whom he turned it over that these items 17 were -- were said to be found outside Mr. Bressette's 18 home in the garbage. 19 Now, let me ask you, can you -- have you 20 seen this weapon before? Can you help us identify it? 21 A: No, sir, I can't but I -- I know -- I 22 know the type. 23 Q: You know the type, but this isn't a 24 weapon that you can identify you've seen before? This 25 particular weapon?
1211 A: I've seen several -- I've seen several 2 before but this one does not strike me as -- as being any 3 different than many of the rifles that I -- that I know 4 of. 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay. It's got some 6 marking, you'll see, on the stock. It's hard to read but 7 it appears to have some marking on the stock and I wonder 8 if that helps you identify it. 9 A: No, there's -- there's different 10 people that put different markings on their -- on their 11 rifles -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm putting 13 an exhibit in for the witness who can't identify it, 14 taken by a person who is yet to be identified so it's 15 kind of -- you want to put this exhibit in? 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: I do. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 42B. 18 He doesn't know anything about it. 19 THE REGISTRAR: 42B. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-42B: Photo 897 September 18, '95 22 Cooey rifle turned over to OPP 23 found outside Mr. Bressette's 24 home in garbage 25
1221 IAN ROLAND: All right, and then the last 2 one is -- and that by the way is Photo 897 in the photo 3 portfolio from the Commission. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, right. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: And then the next one is what appears 8 to be a sawed-off shotgun with the words written on it, 9 "bastard blaster" and it, again, was obtained by the OPP 10 in the same manner as the last weapon and I ask you, this 11 is a more idiosyncratic weapon. 12 Did you -- do you recognize ever having 13 seen this weapon anywhere? 14 A: No, sir, not the photo and that's -- 15 that's a weapon I would have in my own home for -- for 16 show purposes. 17 Q: I'm sorry? It is a weapon -- 18 A: It would be that I would have in my 19 own home for -- for show purposes only. 20 Q: I see. 21 A: That don't look to me as if it's even 22 a weapon. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Orkin 24 has an objection, I presume. 25 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you, Mr.
1231 Commissioner, I have some questions about these 2 photographs produced by Our Learned Friend. This 3 photograph and the photograph before it, but in 4 particular this one, which as we examine the picture we 5 see an object with some graffiti on it, something that 6 looks like a trigger guard but there appears not to be a 7 trigger. It appears to be held together with insulation 8 tape. 9 My first question is, and I'll ask all of 10 them if I may, there are three (3) or four (4) of them, 11 and perhaps Counsel would care to deal with them all at 12 once. Our question is, where is this object now? In 13 whose custody is it and can it be produced? 14 As I've said, it would appear from this 15 one that the photo -- the object in the photo has no 16 trigger and thus, could at least appear to us not to be a 17 weapon at all. Is there any evidence of any kind linking 18 this object, either in time or geography, or on any other 19 basis -- credible basis -- to the occupiers in the park? 20 Were any fingerprints found on this weapon? Any tests 21 taken? Is it a weapon? 22 Mr. Commissioner, it seems to us that with 23 both of these exhibits, there's presently a fair number 24 of questions that can legitimately be asked before this 25 Witness is questioned about these objects.
1241 Questioning, in our view, on these 2 objects, should be disallowed until this object is 3 produced, the other object is produced, along with 4 reports about whether they're weapons at all and a bit 5 more about their pedigree and links to making them 6 relevant to questioning this particular witness about 7 them. And otherwise, with respect, these photographs are 8 purely inflammatory and have no probative value at all. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 10 Roland...? 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, Mr. Commissioner, 12 these documents were provided by -- to all Counsel -- by 13 the Commission through disclosure. And that disclosure - 14 - I can only go by what the disclosure documents show and 15 we're going to hear, I gather, from Mr. -- Mr. Stan 16 Thompson -- that these weapons were tested and that they 17 fired. 18 And, you know, the -- the answer to those 19 questions will come in due course, I assume, in evidence. 20 I wanted simply to know whether this Witness ever saw 21 these weapons. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 23 that's a legitimate question and that's the only 24 legitimate question. 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: And that's what I've
1251 asked. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he 3 said no -- 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to the 6 first one. I'm not sure what he said to the second one. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But that's 9 the only question that I think -- 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: And that's the only 11 question I asked. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 13 fine. So the answer to the first one is no, he never saw 14 it. Have you ever seen this weapon -- this object 15 before? 16 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. I think 18 that's the end of it. 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: For now, and 21 I think at some time we'll deal with them in more detail. 22 I don't think they should be exhibits right now. I think 23 at the present time -- 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: They need to be -- I 25 think they need to be marked subject to proof in the
1261 normal course so that we can -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 3 guess they're going to come out eventually. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 6 correct, Mr. Orkin? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I don't know. I 8 -- I agree with my -- we -- they could be marked for 9 identification. This 42C -- this one would be 42C. The 10 -- to answer Mr. Orkin's question, Commissioner, these 11 photographs were disclosed to the Commission by the 12 Ontario Provincial Police. 13 I presume the Ontario Provincial Police 14 has the weapons themselves and perhaps they can produce 15 them to the Commission as well. They may not but that's 16 -- these photographs came from the OPP. 17 18 ---EXHIBIT NO. P-42C: Sawed off shotgun with "Bastard 19 Blaster' written on it turned 20 over to OPP 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 23 pedigree of the photo. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's the pedigree of 25 the photo.
1271 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right, and 2 disclosure was made to Counsel. Not necessarily all the 3 disclosure is going to be called as evidence. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There may be some 5 evidence as to the pedigree of 42C. 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: And, well, and as well, 7 to be fair, Mr. Commissioner, I understand that these 8 weapons will be the subject of testimony by Mr. Thompson 9 when he comes to give the forensic testimony. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 11 questions you asked are appropriate, "Have you ever seen 12 these?" 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And he's 15 answered no. I think that's enough. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. Mr. George, 17 thank you for your patience. Those are my questions. 18 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much, Mr. Roland. It's now almost one o'clock. I 21 think we have one (1) cross-examination to go on behalf 22 of former Premier Harris. 23 How long do you think you might be? 24 MS. JENNIFER MCALERR: Only about five 25 (5) minutes.
1281 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 2 minutes, then I think we can get you in before lunch. 3 MS. JENNIFER MCALERR: Thank you, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 MS. JENNIFER MCALERR: Good morning, Mr. 6 George. My name is Jennifer McAlerr and I'm one (1) of 7 the lawyers who's acting for former Premier Mike Harris. 8 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 11 Q: I would ask if the Witness could have 12 placed before him Exhibit 36. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And if you could please turn to page 3 17 of that exhibit; the document dated May 6, 1993, it's 18 addressed, "To Whom it May Concern." 19 Do you have that document? 20 A: Yes, Ma'am, I have it. 21 Q: And you may recall that Mr. Roland had 22 asked you some questions, in particular about clause 8 in 23 that document, about the video taping. 24 A: Ask me that again, please? 25 Q: Mr. Roland brought this document to
1291 your attention. He was asking you about clause 8, the 2 videotaping. You may recall you covered this document 3 with Mr. Roland. 4 A: Yes. And what -- what does that 5 indicate, Ma'am? 6 Q: Well, let me just ask you, are you 7 familiar with this document? Have you seen this document 8 before? 9 A: No, no, no. 10 Q: Why don't you take a minute to read 11 through it, then. 12 A: Well, I have, Ma'am. 13 Q: You have -- you are familiar with it? 14 A: Well, yes, now I am. 15 Q: Okay. And it -- it's not signed by 16 you, but it's my belief that you were actual a Councillor 17 of the Stony Point Nation on May 6th, 1993. Is that 18 correct? 19 A: I probably was, Ma'am, at that time. 20 I'm quite sure I must have been. 21 Q: Okay. And it's signed by Carl George 22 who's indicated to be the chief and it's also signed by 23 Maynard George who was one of your co-Councillors at that 24 time. 25 A: Yes, Ma'am.
1301 Q: Now, did you see this document before 2 it was sent out? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Have you -- did you see it after it 5 was sent out? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you have any discussion -- 8 A: This is the first time I ever saw it. 9 Q: Did you have discussion with Mr. 10 George, being Carl George or Maynard George about the 11 contents of this document? 12 A: I probably -- I probably was -- it 13 probably was to -- talked about and -- in our meeting, 14 Ma'am. 15 Q: In a meeting of Council? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. Could you look at clause 6, 18 please. And I'll read it out for the record. 19 "We request all outside First Nations 20 to stay away from our legal take-over, 21 that misrepresentation or civil 22 disobedience may not occur." 23 Do you see that clause? 24 A: Yes, I do, Ma'am. 25 Q: Okay. Do you recall --
1311 A: But it -- it was not -- it is not 2 that -- one of our -- one of our council deals. This was 3 -- this was completely made by Maynard T. George and I 4 don't think -- I don't think we ever discussed anything 5 like that because we were all -- we were all in one (1) - 6 - we did not and we could not, and we could not. 7 Q: So you don't recall having any 8 discussions in Council that would have led to this clause 9 number 6 being in this document of May 6th? 10 A: If somebody appeared that was there, 11 we would -- we would -- we would go through and ask them 12 why they were they and -- and -- and what's their 13 relationships with us. 14 Q: Right. But my question was: Do you 15 recall having any discussions with your co-councillors 16 about requesting that other aboriginal people who weren't 17 part of your First Nation not take part in the 18 occupation? 19 A: No, it was never discussed. To my 20 knowledge we did not leave anybody out. If they were -- 21 if they could prove that they were -- honestly wanting to 22 help us. 23 Q: Thank you, sir. Those are all my 24 questions. 25 A: Thank you.
1321 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much. Do you have some re-examination? 3 MR. DONALD WORME: I think we're -- we're 4 in a bit of dilemma and it's more than simply a technical 5 dilemma at this moment. We've just received a notice 6 that the public cannot exit the parking lot given the 7 building of the new pavement outside these premises. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're all 9 captives here. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Essentially, this is 11 true and they asked whether we might be able to remain 12 for another half an hour or so. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 14 have enough sandwiches back there for everybody. 15 MR. DONALD WORME: I was -- I was going 16 to, Mr. Commissioner, simply reserve the right to -- to 17 call Mr. George on re-examination. I suspect I may have 18 some, but I certainly would want to consult with other 19 Commission Counsel before doing so and I was hopeful that 20 we might use the -- the noon break -- the lunch break in 21 order to do that. 22 With this particular wrinkle and that is 23 to say the inability to exit the parking lot... 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I would 25 really like to finish Mr. George now, if we could. He's
1331 been on the stand a long time. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: Then I'm wondering if 3 we might perhaps take five (5) minutes or so at this 4 moment -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: And I will have that -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Rather than 8 a lunch break. Is that what you're saying? Rather than 9 a lunch break -- 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Prior -- prior to the 11 lunch break -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then 13 we'll deal with -- 14 MR. DONALD WORME: -- simply five (5) 15 minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Mr. 17 George, in re-examination then he'll be completed and 18 that may be enough time for us to be able to get out of 19 the parking lot. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: That's my hope, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's your 22 hope. Okay, then why don't we take a short break now and 23 not a lunch break. We'll take a short break. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps ten (10) 25 minutes. Yes.
1341 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 2 minutes. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 4 for ten (10) minutes. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 12:59 p.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 1:16 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed. Please be seated. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you for that 12 opportunity, Mr. Commissioner. I think I can advise the 13 Commission that there will be no re-examination of Mr. 14 George. I think coincidentally the road is finished and 15 we will be allowed and permitted to exit. 16 I wish to thank Mr. George for the -- for 17 the testimony that he has provided. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So what -- 19 thank you very much. Thank you very much -- 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Mr. 22 George for your testimony. You're finished now, so -- 23 THE WITNESS: Good, thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you can 25 stay or not as you please.
1351 2 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 3 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What time do 5 you suggest we adjourn until? If the road is open then I 6 guess we could go to half past 2:00. Is that all right? 7 MR. DONALD WORME: If we can go to 2:30, 8 sir that would be -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 2:30. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much again. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 adjourned until 2:30 p.m. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 1:17 p.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 2:34 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 24 afternoon. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I would like to now
1361 call Mrs. Yvonne Bonnie Bressette, please. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 4 YVONNE BONNIE BRESSETTE, Sworn: 5 6 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: Mrs. Bressette, if you could pull the 8 microphone in front of you and speak into the microphone. 9 And your full name is Yvonne Bressette? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And you're known as Bonnie Bressette - 12 - that Bonnie's your nickname? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And can you tell us when you were 15 born, Mrs. Bressette? 16 A: I was born in the spring. 17 Q: Of 1937, I think. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Of 1937? And I understand that your 20 parents are Bruce and Hilda George? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that you're married to Mr. Fred 23 Bressette. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that your grandparents on your
1371 father's side were Robert and Laura George. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And your maternal grandparents were 4 Morris and Flora George. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you had five (5) -- you have five 7 (5) siblings. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Gretchen -- 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: And, I believe, Gretchen is with -- 12 A: Sue. 13 Q: You don't have a sister? 14 A: No, I'm the oldest. 15 Q: Okay. Can you tell us in the order 16 that your -- 17 A: Laura's next and Gretchen is next, my 18 brother, Bruce; my brother, Marshall and my sister, 19 Janice. 20 Q: Okay. And you have four (4) children. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Is that correct? There's Gail, 23 Barbara, Fred Junior -- who's known as Buck -- and 24 Shelly. 25 A: Right.
1381 Q: And Melba George was your mother's 2 sister as I understand. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Now, the -- you have been and were the 5 Chief of the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation for one 6 (1) term, I understand. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that was from 1988 to 1990. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you were the economic development 11 officer for the band prior to being elected chief. Is 12 that correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And were you, as well, economic 15 development officer for the band after you served your 16 term as the chief. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you've been a -- involved in -- as 19 a councillor -- since 1968 except for the one (1) term 20 you served as chief, is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And today you are a councillor of the 23 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: As well, you have worked as an
1391 educational assistant at the Kettle Point School. 2 A: No, at North Lambton Secondary School. 3 Q: At North Lambton Secondary School. 4 And how long did you work at North Lambton Secondary 5 School? 6 A: Eight (8) years. 7 Q: Eight (8) years? And I understand as 8 well that your father, Bruce George, served as -- on band 9 council for a number of years. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you take over, in effect from 12 -- or follow your father after he passed away? 13 A: I've always followed what my father 14 wanted done. 15 Q: But -- and in terms of -- 16 A: And that was being involved. 17 Q: And -- your father -- how long did 18 your father serve as a band councillor, Mrs. Bressette? 19 A: I can't remember a time he wasn't a 20 band councillor, right up until when he passed away. 21 Q: And then your brother, Marshall, as 22 well has served as a band councillor. 23 A: Yeah, he -- he served as band 24 councillor. 25 Q: And, I understand that your mother,
1401 Hilda, attended residential school at Mount Elgin, is 2 that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: As did your aunt, Melva George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And your mother, when you were a 7 child, told you about the residential school? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And can you tell us a bit about life 10 at Stony Point when -- as you recall it -- when you lived 11 at Stony Point? 12 A: Stony -- when we -- when we lived at 13 Stony Point, we all had gardens. My dad was -- I don't 14 think he was ever out of a way to put bread and butter on 15 the table -- make a home for us. It was a good life. 16 Everybody worked together. 17 Q: And I understand that you -- you and 18 others who lived at Stony Point were allotted a clear -- 19 cleared lot for a house. 20 A: Yeah, Mom and Dad had a lot right 21 along Highway 21. That's where our house was. 22 Q: And each family had a bush lot -- 23 A: Mmm hmm. 24 Q: -- as well. Is that a yes? Yes? Say 25 yes.
1411 A: Yes. 2 Q: And, as I understand it, the bush lot 3 was used for obtaining timber, herbs for medicine, and 4 other essentials. Is that correct? 5 A: Mmm hmm, yes. 6 Q: And I understand, as well, that your 7 grandmother, Laura, kept a -- kept some livestock on 8 her -- 9 A: Yes, they had horses and I remember 10 there being chickens and ducks and geese -- whatever was 11 needed on a farm, with a big garden. 12 Q: And where did your grandmother live in 13 relation to where your parents lived? 14 A: My mom and dad's house -- our house -- 15 was right here and just a ways over was Grandma Laura's 16 house. 17 Q: And was that east or west along 18 Highway 21? 19 A: West. 20 Q: West? And I understand as well, that 21 five (5) members of your extended family went away to the 22 war -- some of your cousins. There was Tom George -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And Puddy (phonetic) George. 25 A: We -- that was his nickname -- Puddy.
1421 It was Melford -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: And there was Calvin and like, Cliff 4 was like our family, too. There was Cliff and there was 5 his two (2) brothers and I remember when Nub had his 6 uniform when he ran -- was in the army. So we had a lot 7 in our family that was in the army. 8 Q: In the army? And you, as I understand 9 it, recall the day that your family home was put up on 10 blocks. 11 A: Mmm hmm, yes. 12 Q: And, can I just show you -- take you 13 for a moment -- and I'm referring, Commissioner -- this 14 will be to Exhibit 25 -- the Book of Exhibits of Mr. 15 Clifford George. It's photograph number 14 but I'm going 16 to throw it up on the big screen. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you know 21 what tab it is in the Book of Exhibits for Clifford 22 George? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Tab 14, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Okay. 25
1431 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And, it's right there. Is that a 3 photograph of your family home? 4 A: yes. 5 Q: And, if I might, I'm going to show a 6 couple of extracts, Commissioner, with your permission, 7 from a video that illustrates -- has a couple of more 8 pictures, actually, that I believe Mrs. Bressette will be 9 able to identify. 10 But, these are extracts from a Fifth 11 Estate program that was broadcast on October 17th, 1989, 12 and I'm simply going to -- I'm not going to show the full 13 video, but certain extracts from the video that the 14 witness will comment on, and if you could just bear with 15 me and I'll get the video going. 16 17 (VIDEO SHOWN) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Is that a picture of your parents' 21 home, Mrs. Bressette. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the, we will see, and do you 24 recognize that photograph. We have technical problems 25 here.
1441 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Perhaps while 2 you're doing the questioning, somebody can help you with 3 this, Mr. Millar. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And, we'll play it again, but do you 7 recognize that photograph, Mrs. Bressette? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And who is the young man in the 10 photograph, holding the young woman? 11 A: That's my Uncle Nobby and myself. 12 Q: You're the -- you're being held by 13 your Uncle? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And Nobby is your Uncle's nickname, 16 what's your Uncle's full name? 17 A: Robert Junior. 18 Q: Robert George Junior? And he lives 19 today at Kettle Point? 20 A: He's no longer with us. 21 Q: Oh, I'm sorry. But he did live at 22 Kettle Point? 23 A: Mm-hmm. 24 Q: And, and that was your -- 25 A: Yeah, that's him.
1451 Q: -- Uncle there...? 2 A: Yes, that's him. 3 Q: Thank you. And we'll just play, I 4 think there's another photograph, Commissioner. 5 And, the photograph that we just went by 6 was another photograph of yourself and your -- the same 7 photograph again. 8 A: Mm-hmm. 9 Q: And, do you recall -- can you tell us 10 what happened to your parents' house? What do you recall 11 happened? It was moved from Stony Point, where did it -- 12 where was it moved to? 13 A: It was moved to an open field where 14 my Gramma Flora and Grampa Morris was, at Kettle Point, 15 gave my dad and then, a piece of land to put the house 16 on. It was kind of like out in the hayfield, because I 17 know the weeds was about that high. 18 Q: And can you tell us whereabouts on 19 Kettle Point it's -- 20 A: On the 14th Concession on the top of 21 the hill. 22 Q: And does the 14th Concession Road 23 have -- is it near the 14th Concession Road? 24 A: Right off, just right off the road on 25 14th Concession. It's the road at Kettle Point, and when
1461 you get there you go straight to the beach. 2 Q: And the road that passes by the Mall 3 at the corner of -- at the intersection? 4 A: Yeah, that's -- I call it the 14th 5 Concession, I don't know what they call it now. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: I never changed names. 8 Q: Okay. And as I understand it, your 9 parents' home remains where it was moved? 10 A: Yes, it's still there. 11 Q: And it's been -- had additions to it 12 since then? 13 A: On all sides. 14 Q: But the core of the house is still 15 there? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And, I understand that you had a 18 discussion or discussions with your father about the move 19 from Stony Point and can you tell us what he told you 20 back then? 21 A: I always remember that time because 22 the -- our house is no longer on the ground; it's up on a 23 truck and I asked him what -- why our house is up there 24 and he said we had to move away because there was a war 25 on and that after the war, we'd be moving back.
1471 Q: And did he speak of that again after 2 the move? 3 A: It was always -- always my dad -- 4 always talked about when we were going to be able to move 5 back to our land. 6 Q: And at some point did you learn what 7 your father received with respect to his -- your home 8 being moved from Stony Point to Kettle Point? 9 A: I wish to God I could really remember 10 the figures but I think it was around about seventy (70) 11 dollars -- seventy (70) some dollars, something -- it was 12 a very low amount. 13 Q: And I understand that he had to pay to 14 move the house out of that -- 15 A: They were giving us -- they said they 16 gave this person money to move but they never did. 17 What they did was, they hired a man by the 18 name of Tremain (phonetic) who had moved all the people's 19 houses that they moved from Stony Point to Kettle Point 20 and that's the man that got the money. Like, I mean, my 21 dad gets, supposedly, a little bit money for the move but 22 he don't get it; it goes to the man that moves the house. 23 24 Then they put our house out in the field 25 and it was up on these big blocks for a long time until
1481 he was able to get enough money for a foundation to put 2 the house back down again because we had to climb up on 3 these big blocks that he had put there for steps. 4 Q: And do you recall, Mrs. Bressette, how 5 old you were when the house was put back down on the 6 foundation? 7 A: We lived like that pretty well all 8 that winter because I remember they were putting stuff 9 around the sides, I think Dad got on the -- the back of 10 the house and on this side which would have been the 11 north and the west side of the house, they got big bales 12 of straw to put it there because the wind would come 13 under the house so it was -- wasn't until the next year 14 our house was able to be lowered down onto the 15 foundation. 16 Q: And did you live in that house, I 17 think, until you got married at -- I think you got 18 married at seventeen (17)? 19 A: Yeah. Hmm hmm. Yes. 20 Q: And you lived with your parents in 21 your home -- 22 A: Hmm hmm, yes. 23 Q: And after the appropriation in 1942, I 24 understand that your father would return to Stony Point 25 along with your uncles Mr. Dan George and Mr. Abraham
1491 George? 2 A: Yes, all the time. 3 Q: And with one (1) of their friends Mr. 4 Sheldon Cloud. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And can you tell us what your father 7 told you they did when they went back to Stony Point or 8 did you go with them sometimes? 9 A: Sometimes I went with them, but, a lot 10 of times they would go back there and dig up trees and 11 fix them and they would -- well, they call them 12 landscaping nowadays. Our Uncle Dan and Abe and Dad were 13 the first, what I would call landscapers, in the area 14 because I can go into Sarnia and London and see where 15 they planted trees; that was a way they had of making 16 money. 17 And then there was times they would go and 18 -- they would go to visit the -- the cemetery back there 19 because I can't -- don't know where it is -- but I know - 20 - I know where the cemetery is. We didn't call it 21 cemetery, we called it graveyard. We'd go back there and 22 they went to visit their sister Marlene's resting place-- 23 Q: And she was buried -- 24 A: Yeah, she was buried there and a lot 25 of times -- I was just telling Marcie at noon, thinking
1501 about Dad and them -- Dad and his brothers and Sheldon, 2 they had such a feeling for that land, they would go back 3 there and my dad was a -- a tea man. 4 He always loved his old tea and they'd 5 take a pot and they'd go back there and they would -- 6 down by the lakes or, you know, any place back there and 7 they'd make a fire and they'd get a tripod with sticks up 8 -- things up like that -- boil a pot of tea, and they 9 would just sit back there and...that's where I learned a 10 lot about how much they really cared for that land. 11 Q: Because you would -- 12 A: I'd just sit and listen to them. 13 Q: You would -- you would go with them 14 to Stony Point? 15 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 16 Q: And you mentioned, Marcia, is that 17 Marcia Simon? 18 A: Yes, my cousin. 19 Q: And, her, Mrs. Simon's father was Mr. 20 Dan George? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And her mother is Mrs. Melba George? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you helped your father in his 25 landscaping business?
1511 A: Yes. 2 Q: And can you tell us what you did to 3 assist your father? 4 A: We would -- well, I had to help him. 5 I didn't have to lift the trees, unless they were small 6 cedars or small pine, small ones, but we'd go in to 7 Sarnia or London and we'd have our old -- Dad always had 8 an old pick-up truck and it'd be loaded down with trees. 9 And we'd ride along and he'd say, oh, it 10 looks like them people got money, go up and see if they 11 want to buy some trees. So, I'd go up to the door, knock 12 on door, and ask them if they wanted to buy some trees. 13 And I remember when, and his name was Mr. 14 Harkins (phonetic) on London Road in Sarnia, which is now 15 London Road, he says, oh, you're selling trees. And he 16 looked out and he said, how much are they, and I said, I 17 don't know the cost, you have to talk to my Dad. 18 See, that's where my Dad came in after I 19 made the contact at the house. And he come out and he 20 said, there was Dan and Dad, and the man, Mr. Harkins was 21 his name, he said, how much for the whole load? And they 22 told him. And he says, well how much if you plant the 23 whole load? And they're kind of looking at each other 24 and they told him and he said, well, plant them then, 25 I'll take the whole load.
1521 And I ride by there and I see those big 2 pines and those, they're kind of, you know, not the best 3 shaped pines, but they're natural. So, I can go in 4 London or Sarnia and see any place that my family planted 5 trees. 6 Q: There are many trees that still are 7 living today? 8 A: Yeah. Hmm hmm. Yes. 9 Q: And, when you went to Stony Point 10 with your father, and your father went with his -- his 11 brothers, did -- was there any objection by the Minister 12 -- the -- by the Army, to your presence of -- at -- on 13 Stony Point ? 14 A: Not when we -- not when we first went 15 in, we used to go in and maybe get firewood, or we'd go 16 get some trees to sell, or -- back there before they shot 17 up all the trees, there used to be a lot of, what we 18 called, you call it black -- black ash, we call it 19 Barrakigun (phonetic), that used to be back there but 20 it's no good any more, because there's lot of -- lot of 21 them have bullets in them. 22 But that, sometimes Dad would go back 23 there and get that for the women that made baskets. 24 Q: And when you say, back there, you 25 mean in the --
1531 A: Back in Stony Point. 2 Q: -- back in Stony Point, and I take it 3 in the northern part of Stony Point, away from the main 4 part of the army camp? 5 A: Yes, we used to come in up -- up the 6 northern end, yes. 7 Q: And I take it that when your father 8 took trees, he took a variety of different trees, not -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And, the graveyard where your Aunt 11 Marlene was buried, was there a problem with the 12 graveyard at some point in time? 13 A: Yes, when the stones went missing. 14 There used to be, oh, they'd be about that high, -- 15 Q: And you -- about two (2) feet 16 high...? 17 A: No, just about like that. 18 Q: Okay. How many -- 19 A: Like -- 20 Q: But for the record we have to 21 describe, as if to say eighteen (18) inches? Perhaps two 22 (2) feet? 23 A: About eighteen (18) inches high. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I can remember them, they were white,
1541 kind of whitish-grey -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- and they had a -- their name on 4 them and after a while those weren't there, or what was 5 there was laying on the ground, broken. 6 Q: And can you tell us when that was, 7 Mrs. Bressette? Approximately? 8 A: I'd say around in '48/'50. 9 Q: Okay. And you would help pull weeds 10 after you moved, help your father and -- and his friend, 11 Sheldon Cloud pull weeds at the -- the graveyard? 12 A: Yes, I was there one (1) time when 13 they started pulling weeds around there and trying to 14 tidy up and they were quite upset on the condition of the 15 graveyard. 16 Q: And the -- when did it start to change 17 in terms of visiting Stony Point? At some point, the 18 army did not permit people to visit Stony Point. 19 A: I can't remember when, other than I 20 know when the fences went up around the place, then they 21 -- they started stopping people from going in, but Dad 22 still took us in there all the time and -- and we'd go in 23 at the end where there was -- we'd come in up off the 24 beach and come in that way, but they had fenced -- 25 Q: They had fenced the perimeter.
1551 A: Along Highway 21 and that was before 2 that out -- outer drive wasn't there at that time, there 3 was just the army camp Road, so we'd come in from the 4 other side. 5 Q: Okay. And the -- from your 6 experience, what -- what was it like for the families 7 when they moved to Kettle Point? 8 A: From my experience, it was hard 9 because we didn't have -- we didn't have a garden. We 10 had to depend on Grandma Flora and them for a garden 11 because when they moved us from Stony Point, we had -- 12 everybody had to leave everything so, I mean -- and that 13 was -- I think it was in the fall we -- early fall -- so 14 we didn't have nothing. 15 Like, if you -- if you lived through the 16 time where whatever you got ready for the summer -- and 17 that's why I'm griping about being here because I should 18 be home canning -- you have to get ready in the summer 19 and then in the fall, especially, harvesting time, in 20 order to get by for the winter and there was no gardens 21 for our people. 22 They had to depend on their family that 23 was at Kettle Point and -- and the families at Kettle 24 Point had to share with them their gardens. 25 Because I really didn't know anybody
1561 except Sheldon's kids, and my -- 2 Q: Is that Sheldon Cloud? 3 A: Yes, and my family up around the 4 corner -- by that I mean Grandma Laura and around the 5 corner -- those -- from -- to my mom and dad's house -- I 6 didn't go to school until I was -- I was eight (8) that 7 spring and I went to school that fall because -- it was - 8 - it was hard when you really didn't know everybody 9 there, but that was always -- and I know it bothered our 10 parents when we weren't able to get ready for winter like 11 you normally do. 12 Q: And you had had a garden; your family 13 had had a garden at Kettle -- at Stony Point. 14 A: You couldn't live without a garden. 15 Q: And your neighbours, your grandmother 16 had a garden? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And how long did it take, if ever, to 19 get a garden at -- at Kettle Point? 20 A: I think it was the next year we were 21 able to put in a garden because my grandfather, Morris 22 and my grandmother, Flora, they had a beautiful farm. 23 There wasn't a thing that we didn't have on Grandma Flora 24 and Grandpa Morris' farm and -- 25 Q: And that was --
1571 A: -- they -- they plowed a -- a garden 2 for my mom and dad. 3 Q: Out of their land? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And where your -- where your parents' 6 house was located, was there enough land around the house 7 to put in a -- the same type of garden that you had had 8 at Stony Point? 9 A: We had about the same size garden. 10 Q: But the garden, though, at this time 11 was on your grandparents' property? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And, the -- can you tell us, some of 14 your family members lost their Indian status under the 15 Indian Act; is that correct? 16 A: Yes, I had family members who lost 17 their status and they weren't even aware of it. 18 Q: And how was that? Do you know how 19 that was, Mrs. Bressette? 20 A: Some of my family members, if it was 21 a woman and she married a non-Indian, she was no longer, 22 under the Indian Act, an Indian. And the hardest part 23 about this whole thing is we're not even Indians. 24 Indians are from India; we're Nishnawbe people. But one 25 example would be of how wrong that happened to our
1581 People, and especially to my aunt and uncle. 2 In our community, I could always remember 3 different people that would come to our community because 4 they had no place to go, and they could have been what 5 other people might call bums or whatever, because they 6 didn't have no place. 7 And this, I remember this -- there was 8 quite a few of them, they'd come and they'd maybe stop at 9 a house and ask if they could cut some wood for somebody, 10 or maybe help in the garden, or something like that, and 11 -- for a meal and a place to say, they would let them 12 stay and they would help a little bit. 13 And once was, there was a man that came to 14 our community -- 15 Q: And this is at Kettle Point? 16 A: -- that came to -- yeah, Kettle 17 Point, because it was later on after our move from Stony 18 Point to Kettle Point, he came there and he would -- he 19 was a non-Indian and he would help cut wood for this 20 family and cut wood for this one, maybe work in their 21 garden and stuff, and I only knew him as he got older, I 22 didn't even know he wasn't a Kettle Point person, and it 23 was later I found out when my aunt and uncle told me what 24 happened. 25 He fell in love with one of the women down
1591 home and she -- she had already had three (3) or four (4) 2 children, and when -- she was with him, then after a time 3 they were having a baby, so the Indian Agent come along 4 and told them they had to get married. Well, I guess 5 they must have loved each other, so they got married, 6 thinking nothing of it. 7 Then the Indian Agent brought some papers 8 for them to sign, and it was for the man to sign, and he 9 -- he told him, the Indian Agent told him it had to do 10 with the kids that she had, and he signed, never knowing 11 that he was signing to adopt all those kids. 12 So, it wasn't 'til my aunt and my uncle 13 got married, when they got married, nobody said anything 14 about all this to them. And when my uncle and aunt got 15 married, then the Indian Agent come along and told them 16 they had to get off the Reserve because they were not 17 Band Members, and they checked into that. 18 And that's what happened when this white 19 man married the Nishnawbe lady. She lost her status and 20 when the Indian Agent, McCracken, brought those papers 21 for him to sign, he adopted Uncle Bill, Jen (phonetic), 22 Wilford and Walter, those four (4) kids, and they all 23 lost their status through this. 24 So, then when my uncle and aunt, who are 25 fluent in their language, knew our traditions, had to
1601 move away. They lived the rest of their life in the 2 little town of Petrolia up here, and my uncle worked for 3 Ontario Hydro for twenty-five (25) years and then he 4 retired. 5 But neither one of them are with us, but 6 through it all, even their kids lost their status. 7 Q: And so could no longer live at their 8 home on Kettle Point? 9 A: That was so at that time, but it 10 wouldn't happen today. 11 Q: Yes. And I understand that your 12 uncles, Abraham George and Dan George are both buried at 13 Stony Point. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And Mr. Dan George was buried in 1990? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And Mr. Abraham George was buried 18 after that. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And your father was not buried at 21 Stony Point. 22 A: No, but that's where he wanted to be 23 buried but they didn't allow that at that time and -- 24 because -- and when he passed away we just never even 25 thought -- because his death came so fast -- he died of a
1611 heart attack. 2 But he always said and he'd -- him and mom 3 would kid about it and he'd say, Well, Mom, if I go 4 first, you remember I go back to Stony Point and he never 5 -- he's buried at Kettle Point but Uncle Dan and Uncle 6 Abe are at Stony Point. 7 Q: And the loss of the land at Stony 8 Point, what was the effect of that on your relatives and 9 family and friends? 10 A: I think a lot of them -- a lot of our 11 people -- had hopes. The war was on, even our -- our 12 boys were gone to fight in the war and it wasn't until 13 after the war was over and then we all expected to be 14 able to move back and they didn't allow that. 15 I think that's -- that's where, you know, 16 there was hope for everybody -- hope for the people at 17 Kettle Point that pretty soon they would get their land 18 back that they had -- people were living on and we'd go 19 back to Stony Point, but that never happened and whether 20 we want to admit it or not, still to this day there -- 21 there's little -- little hard feelings that exist. 22 Even though we try not to mention them, it 23 -- it still exists there because our people from Stony 24 Point, we always wanted to -- we always wanted to move 25 back. I was never so proud of anybody as I was of the
1621 people that went and just said, this is it, we're moving 2 back, because I know of all the years and the hopes. 3 I used to see all of my parents and their 4 friends. They would be getting together and fundraising 5 to hire a lawyer to go to Ottawa and fight for the return 6 of their land and they would fundraise and get some money 7 and the lawyer would tell them how much and I knew this 8 because my dad made me go to these meetings with him. 9 All the other kids could run around 10 outside and -- but I had to sit with him and take -- jot 11 down notes. He'd tell me when to write. And I seen them 12 -- all our people -- all those years just get ripped off, 13 earning money to pay a lawyer and the lawyer would go to 14 Ottawa and then didn't get no place, then we didn't have 15 no lawyer. Then we'd find another one, raise money 16 again. 17 There was an old saying that come to our 18 Reserve and there was one (1) lawyer, I think his name 19 was Chisholm (phonetic) and that's what they used to say, 20 Well, whenever Chisholm pays. You know, it was something 21 that they did all the time. It was -- they never gave up 22 hope that that land would come back and there was no 23 government funding or whatever for a lawyer. Our people 24 earned their money for their lawyer. 25 Q: And so when your father, as you said,
1631 was on the band council, he and the other members of the 2 band council -- 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: -- tried to obtain the return of the 5 land? 6 A: Always. 7 Q: And when you became, I believe it was 8 in 1968, when you became a band councillor, you took up 9 the cudgel, if I might put it that way, with respect to 10 the return of the land. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And over the years, you've worked for 13 the return of the land as well. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And as a band councillor and as a 16 Chief, you went to Ottawa, as I understand it. 17 A: Yes, I could have went as a band 18 councillor. I -- when I was Chief I only went to two (2) 19 meetings in Ottawa that I can recall for the return of 20 the land and every time I went there I could not get to 21 see anyone. 22 I just got to see the inside bureaucrats, 23 the -- I didn't get to see anybody that could give me a 24 yes or no answer, so I went numerous other times as a 25 Councillor, when a group of us would go down and try to
1641 meet with somebody for the return of the land. 2 There was never one (1) year that was -- 3 if it wasn't me, it was other people. There was always 4 somebody seeking the return of our land. 5 Q: And there was a march to Ottawa, I 6 believe in the early 90's? 7 A: Yes, I know of it, I did not take part 8 in that march. 9 Q: And the purpose of that, was to again 10 seek the return of the lands? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the -- what were you told by the 13 officials at the Department of National Defense, when you 14 went to Ottawa to speak to them about the return of the 15 land? 16 A: They said that they -- sure the war 17 was over, but, they still needed the -- they called it 18 the Ipperwash Army base. They said they still needed it 19 for defense purposes, because they had to still train 20 soldiers. 21 But, later on, there wasn't hardly any 22 soldiers in there, it was -- become a cadet camp. It 23 become just a -- during the winter, there would be a 24 certain group came in, I think they called them militia, 25 whatever -- and they would come in and they would train
1651 for the weekend and then the base would -- there wouldn't 2 be anybody in there, except the workers. 3 And then sometimes you used to see the OPP 4 out there firing on the ranges. But, it was basically a 5 cadet camp after that. 6 Q: And how long -- do you know how long 7 the militia or reserve trained at the camp? Do you know 8 when they -- 9 A: No I don't, but, it was in the last, 10 probably -- let's see if I go back -- I think there's 11 some men in this room that can say they were cadets at 12 that army camp. 13 Q: But the reserve or the militia trained 14 there for a long period of time? 15 A: You mean -- 16 Q: The weekend soldiers? 17 A: Yeah, they were for quite awhile. 18 They'd come in on the weekends. 19 Q: And I understand that you as 20 Councillor and as Chief, sought support from different 21 levels of government, including the provincial and 22 municipal governments? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you received some support from 25 some, but not all?
1661 A: Yes, because -- it was hard to get 2 local support to close that base. 3 Q: And that was for economic reasons, you 4 think? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: Well, you look when they had that 8 whole place going, somebody has got to buy groceries, 9 somebody has to buy gas, somebody has got to have a place 10 to sleep. So there was a -- it was a good economic base 11 for the surrounding areas. Plus the money for the tax in 12 lieu of the -- the dollars in lieu of taxes. 13 But what did my people get out of it? 14 They didn't get nothing out of it. Barely got jobs out 15 of it. I tried for years, as an economic development 16 officer. We run training courses for our people at 17 Kettle Point, but they also included people from the 18 surrounding area of Forest, Bedford, Raven -- sort of 19 around, we had the majority of them in there. 20 I'd say probably forty (40), sixty (60), 21 trying to get together enough to put in for those big 22 catering contracts they had there. We spent a lot of our 23 training dollars training people. And then I think the 24 first year, I lost that bid out by about two (2) cents a 25 ration -- day a ration, day was breakfast, dinner and
1671 supper, you had two (2) snacks in between. 2 And another time I lost it because my 3 contract wasn't -- my bid wasn't in a hard back binder 4 and my photocopying wasn't what they had expected. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: My photocopying wasn't good. So, I 7 mean, what that has to do with putting on meals, but we 8 tried to benefit because our people never benefited from 9 -- from that army base economically. 10 Now and then people would get jobs there; 11 I never worked there a day in my life. My sisters worked 12 there but still -- this is what I'm trying to say is, my 13 dad and mom and all the other people that lived at Stony 14 Point, we have a land base and we've never been able to 15 benefit just for living on it because when we look at 16 land base, the benefit to us is let -- land is life. 17 To somebody else, it's an investment for 18 money. With us, it's an investment in the future of our 19 people because our land would be for the next 20 generations. But in all that, even when we couldn't use 21 our land, we couldn't even get away to get anything to 22 build an economy for the people that now we're having to 23 live all together. 24 Q: At Kettle Point? 25 A: Yes.
1681 Q: And I understand that you did have 2 some support. There was a -- I think it was a 3 Conservative Member of Parliament provincially, Mr. 4 Henderson who gave you some -- 5 A: Oh, yes, he always supported us in 6 whatever we were -- he was pretty good. 7 Q: And I understand at the -- when you 8 were Chief, as part of your efforts, you participated in 9 the documentary -- that -- the Fifth Estate Documentary 10 that we saw the picture from a minute ago -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- but you also raised in that 13 documentary, an issue of what was known as the marriage 14 patch. Is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And can you tell us what the marriage 17 patch was? 18 A: One (1) of the things I'll tell you, 19 first why I wanted that video done and by Fifth Estate 20 was because it might have been a cadet base but it was 21 also a prime vacation for everybody. 22 Everybody's vacationing free on my family 23 and by that I mean my family is everybody at Kettle and 24 Stony Point whether they look at it that way -- that's 25 the way I look at it. That's my whole family where --
1691 Q: Your people -- 2 A: -- my people. And here the marriage 3 patch was all serviced with hydro, water, the whole bit 4 and what they were was officers who were coming into the 5 camp for the summer to train the cadets. They had nice 6 big trailers and they'd park them down in what -- where 7 they called the marriage patch. 8 It was right along the beach, a place on 9 my home -- family home -- where I couldn't even go and 10 yet they were living there in the best of conditions. 11 Not only that, I also know they ripped the camp off for 12 steaks and whatever they got out of the kitchen from the 13 catering company that give them the -- they gave the 14 contract to. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: But this is what it was, marriage 17 patch. So mom and dad could come down there because dad 18 was working up at the camp as a training officer. Mom 19 went into the kitchens to work in there and she got paid 20 and their kids and their kids' friends come along and 21 they had a job in the kitchen, too, and my people 22 couldn't even get a job. 23 Q: And the -- the marriage patch, as I 24 understand it, was used by other people from -- who 25 weren't working at the camp at the time?
1701 A: There was -- yes -- the officers' 2 wives and their families, that's where they -- that's why 3 they hear so much bad words from the officers about 4 everybody at Stony Point is because they got mad when we 5 closed that base down. The marriage patch shut down the 6 cadet camp because of Fifth Estate video. 7 Q: And perhaps we'll just take a moment, 8 Commissioner, if you might and run a portion of that 9 video that relates to the marriage patch. 10 11 (VIDEO PLAYED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 14 Q: And as a result of your efforts and 15 that Fifth Estate program, the marriage patch was closed? 16 Eventually it was closed in any event, however that came 17 about? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And, can you tell us, this program 20 was in October 1989; do you know when the marriage patch 21 was closed, Mrs. Bressette? 22 A: No, I just took a couple rides down 23 there and noticed all these trailers was gone, and they 24 used to put their trailers up in the Army Base up there, 25 store them, so, like the ordinary person would have to
1711 pay fees for being in a park, and then they'd have to pay 2 for -- fees for wherever they stored their trailer. 3 But they didn't have to pay for anything, 4 'cause their trailers used to be up at the Army Base on 5 the side along of army camp Road, 'cause you could see 6 them all in there. And then after a while even all those 7 went, so... 8 And they denied it, they denied that there 9 was that patch there, but it was an exclusive vacation 10 land. 11 Q: And it -- but did it close up in the 12 early '90s, then, after this? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Now, can I take you to 1990 and the 15 funeral for your uncle, Mr. Dan George; you attended that 16 funeral? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And as I understand it, as I think we 19 mentioned earlier, that was the first burial at Stony 20 Point in the modern history, if I might put it that way, 21 since 1942? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then in 1993, there were members 24 of the community that went on to the Camp in May of 1993; 25 were you aware of that?
1721 A: Yes. 2 Q: And, did you participate in the 3 occupation of the army camp in 1993? 4 A: No, but I was over there, I would go 5 over and visit, but I didn't actually stay over there 6 overnight or anything. I would go to visit, I supported 7 the people. 8 Q: And you would go visit your friends 9 who were staying there? 10 A: Friends and family? 11 Q: And members of your family were 12 there? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And did you visit in 1993, in 1994 15 and 1995? 16 A: Off and on. 17 Q: And then in July 1995, on July 29th, 18 1995, the members of the community and others occupied 19 the main part of the army camp; do you recall that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And when did you learn about that 22 happening, Mrs. Bressette? 23 A: I think the next morning after it 24 happened. 25 Q: And the -- did you go down to the
1731 army camp after that you learned that this had happened? 2 A: No, because I -- I was working at the 3 time but I did eventually get down there to talk to my 4 family. 5 Q: And members of -- some of your 6 cousins were -- were there at the army camp? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And was there any other members of 9 your -- were they all cousins who were at the army camp 10 or? 11 A: Cousins and my aunt. 12 Q: That's your Aunt Melba George? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And your cousins were Marcia Simon 15 and her -- her other siblings? 16 A: Most of them are my cousins. 17 Q: Most of the people at the camp -- 18 army camp were your cousins? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Mr. Glenn George is your cousin? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I understand that there was a 23 meeting on August the 1st, a general Band meeting to 24 discuss the army camp, is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
1741 Q: And in that book that's in front of 2 you at Tab 3 and it's Inquiry Document Number 6000-354, 3 there are some minutes referred to as General Band 4 Meeting, August 1, 1995, and you're referred to as being 5 present under your name Yvonne Bressette, is that 6 correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you can just tell us a bit about 9 that meeting and what -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 11 Do you think this should be a good point to have a break? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 3:30 14 and we're going to break at 4:30, so this would be a good 15 time to have a break? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, thank you very 17 much, sir. 18 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 19 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 3:30 p.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 3:46 p.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
1751 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And Mrs. Bressette, as I think I was 4 just asking you before we broke, you're listed as being 5 present as a member of the council as Yvonne Bressette, 6 is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And could you just tell us briefly 9 what the purpose of this meeting was on August the 1st, 10 1995? 11 A: The purpose of the meeting in my 12 understanding was our people were now at Stony Point and 13 no matter which -- where there is people you will always 14 have differences within your group of people. 15 And that's what this meeting was -- was 16 how do we pull together the people at Stony Point and the 17 people at Kettle Point to get and settle the issue of the 18 return of the land in a clean way so that there's no 19 shells, so there's no toxins or whatever. What do we 20 have to do and how can we come together? That's 21 basically what the meeting was about and to hear what the 22 community had to say about it. 23 Q: And members of the community were 24 invited and as we can see from these notes, participated 25 in the meeting?
1761 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the notes indicate at page 23, 3 that you spoke at the end of the meeting. It's the 4 second last page, Mrs. Bressette? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you're referred to there as 7 Bonnie Bressette and that's -- that's you? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the -- you state that: 10 "I wanted to listen to what people had 11 to say and I feel good about what 12 people have said. I asked Tom if 13 Council could meet tomorrow morning. 14 There is a holiday weekend coming up 15 and a lot of our people use that beach 16 for family get-togethers. Council will 17 meet at 10:00 a.m. tomorrow. I think 18 our First Nation has never used the 19 wisdom of the elders; maybe it's time 20 we brought the elders together and 21 asked them to help us solve the 22 situation down here. Maybe we need 23 elders from both tracts of land. 24 Council is going to have to come up 25 with answers about what we heard this
1771 evening." 2 And, firstly, have I read that correctly? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And is that an accurate statement of 5 what you said at the meeting? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the -- what happened after this -- 8 the meeting on August the 1st? 9 A: Okay, the -- the following day 10 meeting, I don't know whether I was there for the full or 11 got there at the end, but one (1) of the discussions was 12 -- and I call them rumours because in all the time I'd 13 been down there to visit my family I never -- I seen 14 other people there but that is our way. 15 Whenever something happens, like -- 16 because I'm not that -- I'm -- I'm a learner. Some 17 people will call me an elder but I don't consider myself 18 an elder. I consider myself a senior because I'm 19 learning, like -- from people from Cliff -- people who 20 have the wisdom and the knowledge. 21 And in our area we have never really had 22 that opportunity because most of our people went to 23 residential school and it was whole different teachings 24 took place there that we've been having to live with that 25 effect. But --
1781 Q: And by that -- 2 A: -- the next -- 3 Q: one you mean when people went to 4 residential school. 5 A: When they went to residential school, 6 a lot of them were taught that our ways were not the 7 right way. My mom went to residential school and I was 8 fifty (50) years old when she apologized for me -- to me 9 for not giving me all the teachings as a Anishinabek qwa 10 (phonetic); that's an aboriginal woman. 11 And the language -- I never -- the only 12 time I heard my mother speak the language was maybe when 13 she was with some of the people that still had their 14 language at Kettle Point but language is very important 15 to us. And that's why we need our elders and we're just 16 now getting our elders to come forth like Cliff does to 17 be able to speak out because they were taught that was 18 all around. 19 Q: So, one (1) of the things that 20 happened as a result of the residential schools was that 21 traditions -- some of the traditions were lost or put 22 aside because of the -- because of the policy in the 23 residential schools. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And today, the community is trying to
1791 regain its traditions and to regain its -- the knowledge 2 of its past. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the -- before I interrupted you to 5 ask you about the residential school, you were going to 6 tell us about one (1) of the concerns in the community 7 and at the meeting the next day. But I take it, your 8 community, like probably most communities in the country, 9 there are differences among members of the community. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there were differences then. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And so you were going to tell us about 14 one (1) of the things that was discussed at the meeting - 15 - I believe it probably would have been on August 2nd. 16 Q: Yeah, because if you look at -- 17 through this information you have here from the meeting, 18 there was concern of other people being in there that 19 were not from the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation. 20 And even our people -- a lot of our people 21 -- residing at home don't understand that when there's a 22 time we can just set aside everything. If we have to go 23 to Oneida and support Oneida Nation, that's what it is 24 because that's the way our people were and always will 25 be.
1801 We don't just say, well that's them down 2 there. If something is needed supporting at Walpole 3 Island, we will go to Walpole Island. 4 And this is what was -- the people from 5 other First Nations heard and they wanted -- they would 6 come to visit at Stony Point, spend some time there and 7 support our people that was there. 8 And I think at that time, and this is my 9 own opinion, that people would hear something and it 10 would get blown all out of proportion. I'm never one 11 that spent my time listening to gossip. If I want to 12 find out something, I go find out myself. 13 You look through here and somebody says 14 this about these other people, sure I've been in there, 15 I've seen people I don't know. But that don't bother me. 16 They're there for a purpose. And it is not -- I can go 17 in all this time from 1993 and still today, I can go down 18 to my mom and dad's homeland, my homeland and there isn't 19 a place I feel safer in my life. 20 Q: And what you mean is, by going home to 21 Stony Point? 22 A: Yes. It's -- unless you have a 23 feeling for the land, like we do, it's hard for a person 24 to even grasp the feeling we get from being able to go 25 where someplace that my father and mother really loved.
1811 And now I can go there and my cousins are 2 living there and I can go and visit them. It's -- I kind 3 of think about Uncle Abe when he told me, you know, I 4 just never thought I was going to see the day, this feels 5 so damn good to be home. 6 This is when he was first moved down 7 there, he was sitting in his old truck, and that's what 8 he was telling me. And unless you have the feeling for 9 the land that we do, it's hard to understand how we could 10 feel that way about a little twenty two hundred (2200) 11 acres of land. 12 But, that's what it was. Everybody was -- 13 not everybody. There were people complaining and that's 14 what you hear in here, when you say there was somebody 15 else there. 16 But, I don't look at them as -- never, 17 ever looked at them as strangers. They were people that 18 came there to support. And I'm never, I can never say 19 enough or express my thanks and my pride, in the people 20 that did take the time. 21 Sometimes I feel looked down on myself, 22 because I didn't quit my job and go over there and live 23 with them. You know, I've always felt bad about myself 24 because I didn't do that. 25 Instead I would maybe go down, take a pot
1821 of soup or you know, something whatever I could cook 2 whenever they're out on the range, and then when they 3 moved inside, I was so glad they would just -- I'd just 4 go and visit them there. 5 But, I think every time -- every time I've 6 went there, I have a strong belief in the spirit of my 7 mother and my dad and my aunts and my uncles, all my 8 relations, that's gone on that done -- wanted so much for 9 the return of that land. 10 And sometimes it's just like as if I could 11 actually hear them, when I got back to Stony Point, just 12 like thanking Glenn, thanking Judas, all the -- Dudley, 13 all the ones that moved there, gave up their whole life 14 on the outside and moved to Stony Point, back home. That 15 was a big step. 16 Q: It certainly was. 17 A: And that's what this meeting was. How 18 do we come together? What's -- what's keeping us 19 separated? But, nobody would honestly say and I'm not 20 going to say, go to somebody and say, what's the grudge 21 you have over here, or what's the grudge you have over 22 here. 23 You have to come to some way to work those 24 differences out that is satisfactory to both people, or 25 both groups of people. And we've never been able to
1831 reach that to this day. 2 Q: You're still working at it, trying to 3 bridge the gap? 4 A: Oh, it will eventually -- it will 5 eventually come. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. And, 7 Commissioner, perhaps we might mark before I move on the 8 Minutes of the August the 1st meeting, the notes, 9 actually they're not really minutes, they're notes of the 10 August the 1st meeting, as the next Exhibit, it would be 11 Exhibit 43. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-43, Your Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Thank you very 14 much. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT P-43: Document Number 6000354 General 17 Band meeting minutes August 1st, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: At Tab 4 of the Book that's in front 21 of you, Mrs. Bressette, there's a letter dated August the 22 3rd, 1995...? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And did you participate in the 25 drawing up of this letter?
1841 A: I was not there -- I was not there 2 when the letter was drawn up. 3 Q: I think we've lost your mike. 4 Hopefully, it will be okay now, Mrs. Bressette. 5 A: Okay? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: The wording here, I was not -- I was 8 not there when the wording of this was drawn up, but I 9 knew the intention of it, and the intention, it was 10 trying to address the concerns of those Band members who 11 attended the meeting the day before. 12 Q: So that it wasn't -- you were trying 13 -- the purpose was to assist in dealing with the concerns 14 that the Band members raised at the meeting, and to 15 communicate those to the members of the Community that 16 were at Stony Point? 17 A: Yes, it was -- it was -- I don't 18 know, it just seemed to me that one of the things came 19 out, can we come together as a group of people if it was 20 just us. I guess that's really the way it kind of came 21 out at the meeting there. 22 Q: And there's, at the next tab, there's 23 a document entitled, Statement of Principles, the 24 Negotiating the Stony Point Land Claim, and these were 25 referred to, as I understand it, at the August 1st
1851 meeting? 2 A: They -- they were referred to at the 3 August 1st meeting, and I got to be honest with you, this 4 is the first time I've seen them in print here, and I -- 5 they had probably been in the office, but I don't dig out 6 all pieces of paper. 7 Q: No, I understand that. Some of us 8 get swamped by pieces of paper. 9 A: Yeah. Yeah. So it's the first time 10 I've seen that print. But I knew from when that August 11 1st meeting, that they were going to come out with the 12 Principles of Negotiating. 13 Q: And did you participate in any 14 meetings in the balance of August of 1995 with respect to 15 the Stony Point, do you recall? 16 A: Not that I can recall. It was 17 August, I think that was about -- there might have been 18 another meeting, but not that I recall specific to the 19 issue of Stony Point. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I'm now 21 going to move to a completely different area that I will 22 not finish today, and I think that it would be beneficial 23 for everyone to have Mrs. Bressette's evidence in a all- 24 at-one-time, on -- it's the issue of early September 25 1995, and with your approval I would suggest that we
1861 adjourn today until tomorrow morning. 2 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Do you want to make 3 those last two (2) documents we referred to exhibits: 4 the Letter of August 3rd, and the Statement of 5 Principles? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, because -- 7 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Not at this time? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, Mrs. Bressette 9 didn't participate in drawing up -- 10 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Okay. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- either the letter, 12 and she said she hadn't seen them written down until now, 13 so... 14 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Okay. That's fine. 15 Does anybody have any objections? I don't think anybody 16 would, to adjourning a little early? But just thought 17 I'd ask. No? 18 It's just a few minutes after 4:00. We 19 adjourn until ten o'clock tomorrow morning? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, and, if I might 21 add one more thing. The Counsel have asked if they could 22 see the entire tape that I played extracts from and, that 23 brings me back, maybe I should mark the tape, knowing 24 that it was only the extracts that I played which were 25 at --
1871 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long 2 does it take to play the whole tape? 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think it's about 4 twenty-five (25) minutes, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think a 6 number of us would like to see the whole tape. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well perhaps what we 8 could do is permit Mrs. Bressette to step down and we 9 could play the tape right now for everyone. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Whoever 11 wants to stay. 12 13 (WITNESS RETIRES) 14 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. What I could do 16 is we -- as Mr. Henderson suggests that we perhaps 17 adjourn and then we could show the tape. 18 But before we do that perhaps we could 19 mark the tape and I can identify the sections of the tape 20 as the next exhibit, it would be Exhibit 44. 21 THE REGISTRAR: 44. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. 44: Extracts from 5th Estate October 24 17, 1989 25
1881 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I'll do that 2 overnight to identify the parts. But perhaps we could 3 adjourn, sir, and then those who wish to stay could 4 watch, we can run the whole tape. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. The 6 Hearing is now adjourned until ten o'clock tomorrow 7 morning. And anybody who wishes to stay to watch the tap 8 is welcome. Thank you very much. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 10 Mrs. Bressette. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 12 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, September 22nd at 13 10:00 a.m. 14 15 --- Upon adjourning at 4:05 p.m. 16 17 18 Certified Correct, 19 20 21 22 ___________________ 23 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 24 25