11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 September 20th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Narnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 Ngai On Young ) 22 23 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 24 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 25 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 CLIFFORD GEORGE, Resumed 6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Mark Sandler 10 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 144 8 9 10 11 12 13 Certificate of Transcript 192 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-26 Newspaper article dated 4 April 14 1998 entitled, 5 "Native Leaders Ousted". 42 6 P-27 Newspaper article dated 7 April the 22nd of 1998. 58 8 P-28 Newspaper article dated 9 July the 4th, 1995 entitled, 10 "Ipperwash Dispute Heats Up". 76 11 P-29 Four (4) page newspaper 12 article dated July the 15th 13 of 1995. 87 14 P-30 August 3rd letter from Chief 15 Bressette to the occupiers at 16 Camp Ipperwash. 102 17 P-31 Statement of James Christie. 110 18 P-32 Interview of Clifford George 19 by OPP, dated August 26th, 20 1993. 116 21 P-33 Article dated August 23rd, 1997, 22 entitled "Shooting of Military 23 Remains a Mystery." 125 24 25
71 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-34 Case history dated August 27, 4 1993 re: helicopter incident. 130 5 P-35 Resolution 43-0044VMC. 156 6 P-36 Document dated May 6, '93, 7 To Whom It May Concern 8 signed by Chief Carl 9 George and by Councillor 10 Maynard Travis George. 161 11 P-37 Notice to the Department of 12 National Defence dated 13 June 9, 1993. 173 14 P-38 Inquiry Document Number 15 1003/422. 173 16 P-39 Inquiry Document Number 17 1004/156. 174 18 P-40 Map. 181 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 --- Upon commencing at 10:31 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Please be seated. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 Good morning. 10 WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 11 MR: DONALD WORME: Good morning, Mr. 12 Commissioner, and good morning to all. Just a couple of 13 brief housekeeping matters. The start time today of 14 course is 10:30 a.m. We do have four (4) days or 15 hearings this week and I think tomorrow and -- and the 16 following days we will shift back to the normal schedule 17 commencing at 10:00 a.m. to approximately 5:00 p.m. 18 subject of course to your views on that, Commissioner, 19 and where we are with each particular witness. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: It's 4:30 p.m., pardon 22 me. We were also thinking out loud that is, that perhaps 23 on Thursday we might commence at 9:00 a.m. with the view 24 to finishing a bit earlier but certainly I'll be happy to 25 hear from counsel on that point.
91 I would also remind all counsel if they 2 could sign in with our court reporter; I think that was 3 the other thing I was asked to simply mention this 4 morning. 5 And we'll of course continue with the 6 witness, Mr. Clifford George. Mr. George is at the 7 witness table and he remains under oath, sir. He has 8 been reminded of that and he is still subject to cross- 9 examination and I believe Mr. Sandler is up next. 10 11 CLIFFORD GEORGE, Resumed 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 Mr. Sandler...? 15 MR. MARK SANDLER: Good morning, 16 Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 18 morning, Mr. Sandler. 19 MR. MARK SANDLER: Good morning, Mr. 20 George. 21 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: Commissioner, for your 23 assistance, I have put together the documents that I 24 expect that I'll be referring to in the course of my 25 examination and I'm happy to provide you with -- with a
101 copy of those. I should say that all Counsel have been 2 provided with these as well. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN Thank you 4 very much. Do you want to just give it to Mr. Worme? 5 Are these documents already exhibits or 6 are they in the material or -- 7 MR. MARK SANDLER: These are in the 8 materials -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right, 10 that's fine. 11 MR. MARK SANDLER: So, there's nothing 12 new here that hasn't been produced by the Commission to 13 all of the parties. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 MR. MARK SANDLER: Finding them is yet 16 another chore. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 19 Q: Mr. George, I wish, as others have, 20 at the commencement of my questioning to acknowledge what 21 is obviously your valuable contribution to the war effort 22 and I do recognize what a forceful advocate you are for 23 your people. 24 A: Thank you, sir. 25 Q: I'm going to ask you for some help in
111 addressing some very specific questions that I have, all 2 right? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And first, so there's no secret about 5 it, I'm going to ask you some questions about how 6 decisions were made and what different viewpoints may 7 have existed within the Stony Pointers community. 8 And I'm going to suggest that it's 9 important to understand who and what people on the 10 outside were dealing with. 11 And to do that, I'm going to start in 1998 12 and move backwards, in time, if I may. And I heard you 13 tell the Commissioner, last time we were all together, 14 that it was in 1998 that you moved off the camp and no 15 longer resided there after that. 16 Do I have that date right? 17 A: Yes, somewhere around there. I don't 18 know exact date, sir. 19 Q: Okay. And you told the Commissioner 20 back when we last were together that -- that you'd made 21 your point. You accomplished what you went there -- went 22 there for, and you remember giving that evidence last 23 time we were together, right? 24 A: I do, sir. 25 Q: Okay. Now, I'd like to understand
121 more about what was happening in 1998 within the camp and 2 -- and to do that, I'd like to start by reading to you a 3 newspaper article. 4 And I'm going to read it very slowly 5 because it's in small print and it's been suggested that 6 it's a little bit unfair to have you try to struggle with 7 it, when I struggle with it as a relatively young person. 8 And we'll go nice and slow here and if I'm 9 going too fast, you'll slow me down, okay? 10 A: Right, sir. 11 Q: All right. And the article for the 12 benefit of the Commissioner and all parties is April the 13 14th, 1998. It is written by Dan McCaffery of the Sarnia 14 Observer and the headline is "Native Elders Ousted". 15 And what I propose to do, and it'll take a 16 little bit longer, but in fairness to you, I'm going to 17 read the article and then I'm going to come back and ask 18 you some questions about it, okay? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: It says this: 21 "Three (3) years after they won a half 22 century struggle to get their land 23 back, a trio of local natives say 24 they've been forced off their property 25 again, only this time the culprits are
131 fellow aboriginals. 2 Stony Point Elders, Clifford George, 3 Rose Manning and Nellie Rogers said 4 Monday they've been harassed and 5 intimidated into leaving the former 6 Camp Ipperwash by a small band of 7 younger natives who think they're in 8 charge of the place. 9 And they say at least two (2) other 10 Elders and a number of other people 11 have also been forced out of the eight 12 hundred and ninety (890) hectare, 13 twenty-two hundred (2,200) acre site. 14 There are a number of factors involved 15 in the dispute, George said, including 16 the fact that some natives are 17 Christians while others practice 18 traditional, First Nations religions. 19 The ousted Elders say the trouble 20 makers include both Stony Pointers who 21 are being paid by the Federal 22 Government to maintain the property and 23 natives from other reserves who have no 24 business living there. 25 All three (3) Elders were born at Stony
141 Point and were there in 1942 when 2 Ottawa moved natives to nearby Kettle 3 Point to make way for a Canadian Army 4 base. The Federal Government promised 5 to return the land when it was no 6 longer needed for military purposes 7 however, it remained in Government 8 hands until May '95 when a group of 9 aboriginals occupied the property, 10 eventually forcing the military to 11 leave. 12 Among the first natives to move back in 13 were George, Manning and Rogers. 14 Manning said she and her granddaughter 15 were ordered out of her home one (1) 16 night last week around midnight by a 17 group of men that included a native 18 from Walpole Island and another from 19 the Oneida Reserve near London. Quote: 20 "They threatened us with guns and said 21 I had to leave," close quote, she 22 recalled. She described the former 23 army camp as a quote, "lawless land," 24 close quote. 25 Nellie Rogers said, quote: "I can't
151 stay there, they're full of hostility. 2 They harassed me. It got to the point 3 I wouldn't trust leaving my car there 4 and they pulled the heater out of her 5 trailer." Close quote. 6 George said he left voluntarily rather 7 than put up with the harassment. All 8 three (3) have taken up residence at 9 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation. 10 George said part of the problem is that 11 there's no official leadership at Stony 12 Point. A band council was elected a 13 few years ago but it, quote, "Went down 14 the drain." Close quote. 15 As it stands now, only about twenty- 16 five (25) people are living on the 17 property, he said. George said there 18 are only a small number of people 19 responsible for the trouble and some of 20 them are outside agitators. Making 21 matters worse, he said, is the fact 22 that police and government officials 23 are afraid to go onto the site -- on 24 the site. Quote, "They're scared to 25 death to go in." Close quote.
161 He also suspects the Federal Government 2 isn't anxious to resolve the problem 3 because it wants to see natives 4 divided. Carolyn Heil, a Franciscan 5 sister from Wisconsin, who has been 6 teaching children at Stony Point for 7 two (2) years says she's been ordered 8 not to return to the property. Quote, 9 "I presume it was a way of getting me 10 out, so violence could happen," close 11 quote, she said. Quote, "I was no 12 longer a witness. I was given five (5) 13 minutes to get out or they'd stuff me 14 in a car and drive me out." Close 15 quote. 16 Forest OPP Constable Luke George says 17 the complaints will be investigated. 18 He said OPP officers will go to the 19 former army camp if there's a, quote, 20 "threat to life", close quote. He 21 added that there's an OPP liaison 22 officer who works with native 23 peacekeepers at the site." 24 Now, first of all, do you recall speaking 25 publicly about the issue that I've just read out in this
171 newspaper article of April of 1998? 2 A: There's been a lot of 3 discrepancies out of that. That's completely hearsay and 4 -- and it's not true, sir -- a lot of it. 5 Q: All right, well let's -- let's figure 6 out what is true and what isn't in the article together. 7 Okay? 8 First of all, though, I want to ask you in 9 a general sense, leaving that aside for a moment, do you 10 remember speaking to the media about what was happening 11 at that point in time? 12 A: What was that -- what was the quote 13 from me at that time, sir? 14 Q: Well, we're going to go through the 15 quotes. I'm just asking you generally, did you talk to 16 the -- did you talk to press? 17 A: I probably talked several times to -- 18 to media and -- and -- 19 Q: Right. 20 A: -- to other people -- to Christian -- 21 Q: All right. 22 A: -- organizations and whatsoever. 23 Q: I'm sure that's so and did you talk to 24 them about the particular problem that was happening in 25 1998 that caused you to leave?
181 A: No, sir, that's completely wrong. I 2 never -- I never once mentioned there was any problems 3 there. 4 Q: Never mentioned a problem. Okay. So, 5 I'm going to ask you then specifically about some of the 6 things that are in the article, in fairness to you. As 7 you can see, the -- the article starts off: 8 "Three (3) years after they won this 9 struggle to get their land back a trio 10 of local natives say they've been 11 forced off their property again. Stony 12 Point elders, Clifford George, Rose 13 Manning and Nellie Rogers said Monday 14 they'd been harassed and intimidated 15 into leaving the former Camp Ipperwash 16 by a small band of younger natives who 17 think they're in charge of the place." 18 So, stopping there for a moment: Did you 19 indicate to the members of the public that -- that you, 20 Rose Manning and Nellie Rogers had been intimidated into 21 leaving Camp Ipperwash by a small band of younger natives 22 who think they're in charge of the place? 23 A: No, sir. It never happened because I 24 -- I was never ever mentioned. I never ever, ever said 25 that I was forced out of the place. I went on my own
191 volution because it -- like you read before that I 2 accomplished what I wanted to go there for -- for now. 3 That we got the ear of the Government and that's -- 4 that's what I was after. 5 Q: And I heard you say that. So -- so, 6 you did not complain to anyone tha -- that you were 7 forced out of the camp? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: Do I have that right? 10 A: The other -- the other two (2) were 11 asked to leave. I know that for sure because they were 12 causing trouble, sir. 13 Q: Ah. Okay. Well, we're going to get 14 to that in a moment. Now, this is what is attributed to 15 you. It says: 16 "There are a number of factors involved 17 in the dispute, George said, including 18 the fact that some Natives are 19 Christians while others practice 20 traditional First Nations' 21 religions." 22 Now is that something that you might have 23 communicated to -- 24 A: I probably -- I probably have in one 25 of my talks because it's true that -- that there are even
201 -- even in Kettle Point there were -- were -- there was 2 many that's following the traditional way and there are 3 many that are Christians, sir. 4 Q: I understand. And is that something 5 that you would have discussed with -- with the media as 6 explaining the dispute that was occurring in 1998? 7 A: No, sir. That's totally wrong. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: If the man was here I would tell that 10 myself, sir. 11 Q: All right. And then it says: 12 "The ousted Elders say the 13 troublemakers include both Stony 14 Pointers who are being paid by the 15 Federal Government to maintain the 16 property and Natives from other 17 reserves who have no business living 18 there." 19 Now just stopping there for a moment. 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: Did you express the view or did you 22 hold the view back in 1998 that there were some 23 troublemakers within the camp? 24 A: I never ever mentioned them being 25 troublemakers there. They -- they're honest, good people
211 that come from other reserves to help with the situation. 2 Q: So, from your perspective, what 3 you're telling the Commissioner is that you've never ever 4 expressed the view that there was a single troublemaker 5 on that camp in 1978 -- 1998; is that right? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Okay. Well, we've got your answer. 8 And -- and would that be true back from 1993 when you 9 first occupied the camp until 1998 when you left that -- 10 that you saw no evidence of a single troublemaker within 11 that camp at any point in time? 12 A: No, sir, they haven't because we were 13 all -- we were all a very good community together; we 14 work together, we live together. The only time that we 15 were asked to leave the place was by the Chief himself. 16 He -- he come over to the gate and said, I want you 17 people out of here. 18 Q: That's Tom Bressette you're talking 19 about? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: All right. And I'm -- I'm going to 22 come to that a little bit later. But, really I'm asking 23 you something a little bit different. 24 And -- and to be clear because I don't -- 25 I don't want the questions to be misunderstood. I
221 accept, Mr. George, that -- that your intention 2 throughout and the intention of many of your fellow First 3 Nations occupiers, was to proceed in a peaceful and 4 honourable way within the camp. All right, I accept 5 that. So, we'll start with that. 6 A: Thank you, sir. 7 Q: All right. But what I'm suggesting 8 to you is that to your knowledge and this may -- you may 9 not feel that this reflects well upon the community, 10 that's why I said this to you. 11 But to your knowledge, there were problems 12 within the camp associated with some people there who 13 were not inclined to be peaceable and not inclined to 14 proceed in the way that you wanted to proceed. Am I not 15 right about that? 16 A: No, sir. The -- the only little 17 troubles there were was to through -- probably and -- and 18 things like that. But there was never real absolute 19 trouble anywhere that I -- that I know of. 20 Q: Anywhere? 21 A: And I was well informed all the time, 22 me being the Elder there, sir. 23 Q: Okay. Now it says here that: 24 "Manning said she and her granddaughter 25 were ordered out of her home one night
231 last week around midnight by a group of 2 men that included a Native from Walpole 3 Island and another from the Oneida 4 Reserve near London. They threatened 5 us with guns and said I had to leave. 6 She described the former Army camp as a 7 lawless land." 8 Now, stopping there. Were you aware that 9 Rose Manning had made those allegations back in 1998? 10 A: No I did not, sir. I -- I -- I'm 11 aware that she was asked to leave there because she was 12 causing problems, sir. 13 Q: All right. And you told the 14 Commissioner last time we were here that -- because I 15 noticed this in response to Mr. Worme's question, that -- 16 that you didn't know about it first hand but you've been 17 told that the reason why Rose Manning left had something 18 to do with her fault. 19 You remember saying that last time? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And I seen the destruction that she 23 caused before leaving, sir. 24 Q: All right. So -- so, what you'd say 25 is that she left because of the destruction she caused,
241 and -- and so this story is completely false in that 2 respect? Is that right? 3 A: According to me, sir. But -- 4 Q: Well -- 5 A: -- possible not to her. You'd have 6 to -- 7 Q: I understand -- 8 A: -- question her on that. 9 Q: I can only ask you, right now. 10 A: Yeah, well sir, I'm telling according 11 to me, you know, sir. 12 Q: Okay. So, Nellie Rogers then -- and 13 by the way, was Rose Manning an Elder back then? 14 A: Well, she's -- she's quite aged, sir. 15 She's -- she was a -- she lived in Stony Point for many 16 years and ... 17 Q: All right. 18 A: I think she's thirteen (13) years 19 younger than -- younger than I am, sir. She went to the 20 same school I did when she was very young. 21 Q: Okay. And that it says: 22 "Nellie Rogers said, I can't stay 23 there. They're full of hostility. 24 They harassed me. They've got to the 25 point I wouldn't trust leaving my car
251 and they pulled the heater out of her 2 trailer." 3 Now stopping there for a moment, and 4 again, do you know Nellie Rogers? 5 A: Yes, sir. I know her. I grew up 6 with her in Stony Point there. 7 Q: She was an Elder as well? 8 A: Pardon, sir? 9 Q: And she was an Elder as well? 10 A: Well, I guess you can call her an 11 Elder. I -- she -- she's quite aged, yes. 12 Q: All right. I mean, when I use the 13 term "Elder" and I -- and I'm using it to signify someone 14 who is of sufficient age and attachment to the people 15 that -- that they are given that term as a term of 16 respect. Do I have that right? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Okay. And -- and then when she said 19 that she was harassed and that she couldn't even leave 20 her car there and the heater was pulled out of her 21 trailer; I mean were you unaware of any of these 22 allegations back in 1998? 23 A: No, sir, I never. Anything that 24 happened there, usually come to me, but I've never heard 25 of anything like that, sir.
261 Q: Well, I mean when this became public, 2 because I'm going to show you that there were at least 3 three (3) different stories dealing with the three (3) of 4 you being ousted from the camp, I mean, did that not come 5 to your attention that the media was -- 6 A: I was never questioned, sir. 7 Q: You were never questioned -- 8 A: The only time -- the only time I was 9 questioned that is a long time ago. I -- I mentioned 10 that. That the -- the only way I'll leave this place is 11 feet first. 12 Q: Right. And in fairness to you, I saw 13 a lot of references in newspaper articles over the years 14 to a very distinguished Clifford George saying things 15 like, the only way you'll ever get me off this land is -- 16 is feet first. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And comments like, I'm here for the 19 rest of my days in the land that was my family's. And 20 you remember making those kinds of comments, of course? 21 A: Yes, sir, I do. 22 Q: Of course. And I guess that's why 23 I'm asking the question about -- about how it was that in 24 1998 you came to leave and we have these newspaper 25 articles.
271 So, let me just go further in the 2 newspaper articles and maybe we can cast some light upon 3 all of this. 4 The next line is: 5 "George said he left voluntarily rather 6 than put up with the harassment." 7 A: There was no harassment, sir. 8 Q: I -- 9 A: Not on my part. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: They ask me to -- to stay longer. 12 They were going to give me a -- they were going to give 13 me a place in the camp itself. That's after they start 14 moving into it. And I said I've been in barracks too 15 long now. I said I'll never -- I'll never move into a 16 barracks, sir. 17 Q: Yes. No, I remember that. And that 18 was in 1995 when the barracks were taken over, right? 19 A: Well, periodically when -- when 20 people moved into the -- into the barracks, I was asked 21 several times if I wanted building there, and I kept 22 saying, no, sir. I don't want to -- I'm quite 23 comfortable with what's my -- old place where I was at 24 the time. 25 Q: I understand that. And -- and you
281 made it quite clear that -- we know that the barracks 2 were taken over on July the 29th of 1995. You can take 3 that from me, that's -- that's the date that -- quite 4 well established in the documents. 5 And you had indicated that shortly after 6 the barracks were taken over, some of the others within 7 the Stony Pointer's community offered to have you come 8 into the barracks and you -- and you indicated, as I 9 recall your evidence to the Commissioner, that you'd had 10 enough of army life and barracks and so on and you wanted 11 to stay put exactly where you were. 12 Did I get that right? 13 A: What was the date, sir? 14 Q: July the 29, 1995. 15 A: I -- I think it's wrong. 16 Q: Okay. Well, if I -- I may be proven 17 to be wrong. I don't think so, but -- 18 A: They -- they -- they never took over 19 because we -- we had an understanding with the present 20 soldiers that were stationed there -- there's about three 21 (3) of them holding -- holding the -- the units there and 22 -- and that -- that was later -- later at that time when 23 -- well, it could have been -- could have been somewhere 24 around that time. 25 Q: Okay. I can --
291 A: When -- 2 Q: -- I'm sorry, I didn't mean to 3 interrupt. 4 A: When they drove -- they drove the bus 5 in there. Prior to that -- prior to that there was an 6 understanding that we would not bother with the -- with 7 the camp, whatsoever and -- and let the cadets stay. 8 Q: Okay, I can tell you that the bus 9 drove -- drove in and -- on July 29 of 1995. 10 A: Okay, sir, I -- I wasn't there; I 11 couldn't tell you at that -- at that time but I heard 12 about it very shortly after, sir. 13 Q: Okay. Well, actually you've kind of 14 anticipated something I was going to deal with later but 15 maybe I'll deal with it now. 16 You described in your evidence to the 17 Commissioner the last time we were together, the fact 18 that a decision was made that it was time to -- to move 19 further and to take over more of the camp and that as a 20 result everybody got into the bus and -- and drove into - 21 - into this additional area and it was all peaceful and 22 the army left voluntarily. Do you remember that? 23 Do you remember describing that in -- in 24 those terms? 25 A: No, sir, we -- I was not involved in -
301 - in the decisions of -- of taking the camp over. 2 Q: Okay. And -- and you -- 3 A: And I would have okayed it, Sir. 4 Q: Okay, but I'm asking you something a 5 little different. First of all, when we were here last 6 day, you described that event and when you described that 7 event you described people coming in on July 29 -- you 8 didn't use the date but you said people coming in on the 9 bus and it was all kind of peaceful and -- and the army 10 left voluntarily and -- and I guess, what I'm asking you 11 is, you weren't actually there when the bus came in, were 12 you? 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: No? Okay. 15 A: And the bus -- the bus -- busted in 16 from -- from the back -- from the back section, not 17 through the front gates, sir. 18 Q: Because I expect there's going to be 19 some evidence and undoubtedly if there's ten (10) 20 witnesses there'll be ten (10) different accounts but I 21 expect that there's going to be some evidence that when 22 that bus actually came in, it -- it rammed the military 23 vehicle and it backed up and some pepper spray had to be 24 employed to try to arrest -- 25 A: Not -- not
311 Q: the driver -- 2 A: -- not at that time, sir. 3 Q: Not at that time? Well -- well you 4 weren't there, so -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I'm talking on hearsay, sir. 8 Q: Right. Okay. 9 A: From that -- 10 Q: Well, I'm just trying to clarify what 11 we know from you personally and what we know from 12 hearsay. 13 So, that's very helpful. Thank you. So, 14 when we're dealing back with this article of April 14, 15 1998, the article goes on to say -- this is Mr. 16 McCaffrey: 17 "George said part of the problem is 18 that there's no official leadership at 19 Stony Point. A band council was 20 elected a few years ago but it went 21 down the drain." 22 Now, just stopping there for a moment, I 23 heard you say, when we were here last time, that there 24 was a recognition on your part that -- that there came to 25 be a time where there was no official leadership at Stony
321 Point and the Band Council had petered out. Do I have 2 that right? 3 A: Yes, sir, that's absolutely right. 4 Q: Right. So, when this reporter is 5 quoting you as saying that -- that part of the problem is 6 that there's no official leadership at Stony Point. A 7 band council was elected a few years but it went down -- 8 but it, quote, "went down the drain," close quote. 9 You could very well have said those 10 precise words to the reporter, right? 11 A: Yes, I did, sir, because -- 12 Q: Good. 13 A: -- because we were all gathered in one 14 (1) -- one (1) -- one (1) small location. We were all 15 together and people started -- started separating and 16 moving to different places. Same as Rose Manning, she 17 built a home -- she built a home on her own property and 18 as for other people, done the same thing. 19 Q: Okay, so -- 20 A: And that -- that -- that is why the 21 division but we were still -- we were still classified as 22 being together completely. 23 Q: I understand, but I guess the question 24 that I have for you is that if you were telling this 25 court reporter who's writing this story on native elders
331 ousted, that part of the problem is that there's no 2 official leadership at Stony Point and the Band Council 3 went down the drain, what would the problem have been 4 that would have generated your meeting with the court 5 reporter -- I'm sorry, with the reporter, to discuss that 6 issue? 7 A: I don't even recall talking to him, 8 but -- but probably did because there was many -- many 9 coming into the deal asking for this. As a matter -- as 10 a matter of fact my friend over there, I told him to get 11 the heck off the reserve because you reporters never -- 12 never tell what I say anyway. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: He's still my good friend though, 15 sir. 16 Q: You'll be happy to hear that though I 17 may not share your views on every topic, I may share your 18 views to some extent on -- on media coverage at times 19 with all due respect to our friends. We may have just 20 formed the common link, sir. 21 A: Thank you, sir. 22 Q: But just moving on in the article 23 here that it says: 24 "George said there are only a small 25 number of people responsible for the
341 trouble and some of them are outside 2 agitators." 3 Now, the reporter appears to be either 4 quoting or paraphrasing what you've got to say. So, I'm 5 interested in where -- can you help the Commissioner out 6 as to where that could have come from? There's only a 7 small number of people responsible for the trouble and 8 some of them are outside agitators. 9 A: Yes, sir. We found out there was -- 10 there was people sent there for that reason whatsoever 11 from other reservations and we found that out later 12 because they befriended us and -- and told us they were 13 helping us. And then come to find out they were -- they 14 were completely working for somebody else. 15 There was two (2) brothers that I know of 16 and there's -- there's been others that infiltrated in, 17 even some white people. There was one time a Japanese 18 fellow come in there and then talked to the boys and said 19 that he was good but we -- but we found out that through 20 his -- through his deal that -- that he just downgraded 21 Glen George himself. 22 There was other people that -- that wrote 23 -- that's downgrading us so that is how we know, sir. 24 Q: So -- so, we're getting somewhere 25 here because what you're saying is that you may very well
351 have told the reporter that -- that there's a problem and 2 that some of it is caused by outside agitators. Because 3 you're describing outside agitators, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: And -- and it took -- took us quite a 7 while to find that out, sir. 8 Q: Okay. And just so I understand, who 9 are we walking about in terms of outside agitators? Who 10 are you referring to? 11 A: There was still brothers from -- from 12 Oneida -- that they're brothers. I don't even recall 13 their names, sir, because I'm very short on remembering 14 names. But they were there for -- for an awful long time 15 and they were -- them two (2) were seen -- is just as 16 hearsay -- reporting into the RCMP, sir, in Walpole 17 Island. 18 Q: I see. 19 A: And that's all I know about that, 20 sir. 21 Q: Okay. And it says -- because what -- 22 what I'm hearing you say now is that this story has it 23 completely backwards in a sense that -- that you're 24 saying if they were outside agitators, they're -- they're 25 somehow motivated by the RCMP?
361 Is that -- is that what I hear you saying? 2 A: That's exactly what -- what we 3 understand. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And again, we all stood together on - 6 - on a complete -- 7 Q: All right. No, I just want to 8 understand this because in the next paragraph it says: 9 "Making matters worse he said, and the 10 he's referring to you, making matters 11 worse he said is the fact that police 12 and government officials are afraid to 13 go on the site. Quote, "They're scared 14 to death to go in."closed quote." 15 So, this puzzles me. You're going to have 16 to help me out on this because surely we can't be talking 17 about outside agitators that you thought are being 18 brought in by the police and in the same breath say that 19 part of the problem here is that the police are too 20 scared to come in? 21 A: I might have reported that, sir, but 22 my finding out that -- that even the police was not 23 allowed to come in there. I don't know -- I don't know 24 how true that is, sir. 25 Q: No. Well -- well, right now leaving
371 aside how true it is that the police were actually scared 2 to go in, you're quoted as saying that -- that making 3 matters worse is the fact that the police and the 4 Government are afraid to go on the site. Quote: 5 "They're scared to death to go in". 6 Close quote. 7 I mean, you knew at the time that the 8 police -- 9 A: I probably did at the time, sir. 10 Q: Probably did. All right. Well, what 11 was it that they were scared to go into the camp about? 12 A: Because -- 13 Q: When everything was peaceful? 14 A: Because there was a lot of rumours, 15 sir. There still is to this day that there's weapons in 16 there. People -- people has been running to them telling 17 that there AK weapons in there. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: Even today people tell me there's 20 still weapons in there. There are not, sir. There never 21 was. 22 Q: Okay. Well, we're going to come to 23 that issue. 24 A: Okay, sir. 25 Q: So, there would be no basis for the
381 police to be scared to come in, even though it would 2 appear that you may have told the reporter that, as far 3 as you were concerned, one of the problems here is that 4 the police were scared to come in? 5 A: Even the firefighters won't come in 6 there when there was a fire in one of the buildings. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Even Kettle Point firefighters didn't 9 want to go there. 10 Q: I understand. 11 A: On account -- on account of the media 12 plus the people round -- round the district downgrading 13 us as what they still talk about today, sir. 14 Q: Okay. And in fairness to you, I will 15 deal with the weapons issue a little bit later on and 16 give you your full opportunity to -- to address it. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: In the article, it then says: 19 Carolyn Heil, a Franciscan Sister from 20 Wisconsin, who's been teaching children 21 at Stony Point for two (2) years, says 22 she's been ordered not to return to the 23 property." 24 Now just stopping there for a moment. 25 Knowing your level of awareness of what's going on in the
391 camp, you were aware, of course, that -- that a 2 Franciscan Sister and other volunteers were -- were in 3 the camp assisting the First Nations peoples, right? 4 A: Yes, she was. She became a very good 5 friend of mine, sir. 6 Q: Good. All right. Then she's a very 7 decent, honourable person, isn't she? 8 A: Yes, she is, sir. 9 Q: Okay. And here she's quoted as 10 saying that she's been ordered not to return to the 11 property. 12 "I presume it was a way of getting me 13 out so violence could happen, she said. 14 I was no longer a witness. I was given 15 five (5) minutes to get out or they'd 16 stuff me in a car and drive me out." 17 Now -- 18 A: I don't know anything about that, 19 sir. The -- the only thing I know that -- that she went 20 to stay with Rose Manning in Kettle Point and that's 21 where she was ousted by the Kettle Point Council 22 whatsoever -- that's -- that's -- she has still never 23 returned. 24 Q: But she was actually teaching 25 children right in the Stony Point, wasn't she?
401 A: She was teaching in Stony Point -- 2 Q: Right. 3 A: -- nature. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: She taught nature and we -- very well 6 that she never tried to -- she never tried to teach our 7 children her -- her ways of living. 8 Q: All right. I mean, she's a wonderful 9 person. 10 A: Pardon, sir? 11 Q: She was a wonderful person. 12 A: Yes, she was, sir. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: I talked to her just about every day. 15 Q: And you -- I mean for her to say that 16 -- that she's ordered out of Stony Point; could you 17 imagine any reason why she, a person like this, would be 18 ordered -- 19 A: I -- I -- 20 Q: -- out of Stony Point? 21 A: I couldn't say that, sir. Only way 22 that I can say is that must have been a misquote. 23 Q: Must have been a misquote. Okay. 24 A: Yes, sir, because she would not talk 25 like that as far as I know.
411 Q: All right. There is another 2 explanation, perhaps, and that is that back in 1998, it 3 may very well be that a group of agitators within the 4 camp were disrupting the ability of the legitimate Stony 5 Pointers to live there and that they were threatening 6 some of them, including the Elders, with guns. 7 And the people like Rose Manning and 8 people like yourself and -- and the other Elder listed in 9 the article and people like Carolyn Heil could no longer 10 remain there for that reason. 11 A: Absolutely wrong, sir. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Because the people had lived there or 14 some of them had passed away. Abraham George's family is 15 right here. Why would he be sent out? I have a good 16 relationships with all of them, sir. 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: Thank you. 18 Commissioner, could this document be the next exhibit, 19 please? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This 21 article? 22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-26. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-26. Thank 24 you very much. 25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-26.
421 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-26: Newspaper article dated April 14 2 1998 entitled, "Native Leaders 3 Ousted". 4 5 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Mr. Commissioner, I'd 6 like to commence this, not as an objection but rather as 7 a question of My Friend, because I've been reviewing the 8 -- the documents that he's been using with respect to his 9 cross-examination of Mr. George and I wonder if he could 10 clarify for us -- I don't see Mr. George as having the 11 documents in front of him -- what opportunity he may have 12 had in light of the requirements of Rule 39 of the 13 Commission. 14 The specific object of the rule explicitly 15 being to prevent witnesses from being surprised with a 16 relevant document that they have not had an opportunity 17 to examine prior to their testimony, what opportunity Mr. 18 George may have had to examine this document in advance 19 and the other documents that he -- he proposes to use. 20 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm happy to address 21 that. This document was distributed to all Counsel 22 including Commission Counsel at our last appearance. 23 Some additional documents were distributed today. 24 One (1) of the Commission Counsel 25 suggested to me that rather than put the documents to the
431 Witness, given the small print, that I should read them 2 out to the Witness slowly and make sure that he 3 appreciates them and understands them and -- and we'd 4 proceed in -- in that way. 5 As well, Mr. Worme, this morning and I 6 discussed whether or not Mr. George would like to review 7 the documents in advance and I certainly indicated to Mr. 8 Worme that if he wanted to do that, I had no objection. 9 I thought the print was very small and I undertook to go 10 very slowly and I was -- I was advised to proceed in the 11 way that I was proceeding. So, I advise that of My 12 Friend. 13 I certainly have no objection to this 14 Witness or any other that I cross-examine reading the 15 documents in advance and if Mr. George wants an 16 opportunity now to do that as well, I'll provide a set to 17 him and -- and we'll adjourn and deal with it that way. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 MR. MARK SANDLER: But, I did that based 20 upon -- you know I had specific discussions to deal with 21 this particular issue. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 23 fine. 24 Mr. Worme, do you think we should -- do 25 you think we should adjourn and give Mr. George a chance
441 to review the documents that he's going to be question 2 on? 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, Mr. 4 Commissioner. I would agree with Mr. Sandler's 5 assessment of our discussion; that is, in fact, our 6 discussion. 7 I did have a conversation with Mr. George 8 about the small typeset of this -- of this material that 9 he's presenting to it but I think -- I rise as well on 10 another point and that is that I -- I recognized that a 11 witness should and ought to be tested with respect to 12 their veracity and such, but I -- I'm wondering whether 13 or not and -- the date of these articles, for example -- 14 they date into 1998. We're talking about three (3) years 15 after the event. 16 During the course of Mr. Sandler's cross- 17 examination I've had the opportunity to again review the 18 mandate of the Commission and it seems to me that we are 19 looking into events that occurred in 1995. 20 If this has some particular relevance to 21 that and to the other mandates of the Commission, that is 22 the Part II mandate, then certainly I think we ought to 23 hear about that. I don't think that at this particular 24 point we have had any kind of reasons provided as to why 25 we would be dealing with issues of 1998 but certainly I'm
451 sure that Mr. Sandler can inform us on that. 2 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Mr. Commissioner, with 3 your permission, if I could add the point that -- that -- 4 that -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- follows the one I - 7 - based on the question I asked. My Friends and I all 8 received an e-mail on Saturday, September -- well, it's 9 dated Saturday, September 18th. We all received it, 10 obviously, some time between then and this morning in 11 which Our Friend, Mr. Sandler, has detailed the various 12 newspapers articles to which -- to which he planned to 13 refer and I would say that under -- I would respectively 14 submit that under the best circumstances, we have been 15 given very short warning of the particular documents with 16 which he proposed to examine Mr. George this morning. 17 The point I'm making is not related to the 18 specific nature of the inquiry, at least at this time, 19 that Mr. Sandler may be making but is one relating to the 20 specific status and capabilities of this Witness. I 21 think we may be going towards the unseemly and unfair. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Sandler, 23 I presume you're going to be referring to some of these 24 other documents that you've handed out this morning as 25 well.
461 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes. I hadn't -- some 2 of these documents don't purport to be documents that he 3 would know about. They just are the evidentiary 4 foundation upon which my questions are based. Frankly, I 5 could ask the questions without referring to the 6 documents. I just thought it might be easier for the 7 parties to see where all of this was coming from. 8 The newspaper articles are a different 9 matter. But I should say this, Mr. Commissioner; first 10 of all the documents that I'm now examining Mr. George on 11 were provided a week and a half ago to all of the 12 parties. 13 On Saturday I recognized that there were 14 some additional documents that I may refer to in my 15 examination and I reflected to all parties that 16 unfortunately given what was going on Thursday and 17 Friday, I was unable to address them until -- until this 18 Saturday and that's why I brought hard copies so that 19 everybody would have them. 20 I'm not sure how I could do that in -- in 21 any other way. As for the issue of -- of relevance, I'm 22 certainly prepared to address why this is relevant to the 23 events of 1995. My submission is that the dynamic of 24 what was going on in the camp of '98, I'm going to show - 25 - can move back in time to '93 and '95 and I expect that
471 it will be important in dealing systemically with how -- 2 how the police deal with an occupation not -- for the 3 Commissioner not have a misleading impression that, you 4 know, here you've got a group of -- kind of a monolithic 5 group, they're all peaceful and happy and -- and it's not 6 very difficult for the OPP to dialogue with that group 7 and so on. 8 And I think that does an injustice to 9 everybody including the First Nations community. And -- 10 and frankly I expect that the evidence will develop just 11 what the dynamics were within the camp from '93 to '98. 12 And finally I'd point out that in examination-in-chief, 13 we heard about events from '93 to 1998. 14 We heard that the shooting of the 15 helicopter may not have been a shooting of a helicopter. 16 We hear about why this gentleman left the camp in '98 and 17 with respect, this is -- this was the stuff of 18 examination-in-chief leaving aside my own views of the 19 matter. 20 As for any unfairness, the one thing that 21 I suggest respectively that I cannot be accused of is 22 unfairness in dealing with this or any other witness. 23 And if this Witness wants to read the documents, if My 24 Friends want to read the documents longer than they've 25 had them, I'll accommodate everybody in any way.
481 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 2 go, let's proceed, let's continue with your cross- 3 examination. If you're going to refer to a particular 4 document, indeed, as much detail as you did the last one 5 and ask him specific questions about it and he hasn't 6 seen it or had an opportunity to review it, we'll stop 7 and give him that opportunity. 8 But you indicated you might be able to -- 9 to conduct your cross-examination without -- without 10 reference to the document. 11 MR. MARK SANDLER: No, I'm saying for 12 some of the documents. The newspaper articles, I think 13 in fairness, have to be put especially when he's being 14 quoted in them. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I 16 haven't seen how many there are but why don't we give him 17 an opportunity to read them? 18 MR. MARK SANDLER: That's fine. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 20 do that? 21 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm happy to do that. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well ,we'll 23 stop and will take a few minutes. The print is small but 24 I -- I think if he's going to be asked specific questions 25 about specific articles, he should have an opportunity to
491 review them. 2 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'll -- I'll provide 3 him all the documents I may refer to even if I don't 4 specifically take them. And he can -- he can read them 5 or not, read them as he sees fit. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 That's fine. 8 Mr. Ross, you have something to add? 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Yes, Mr. Commissioner, 10 that it might be appropriate if My Friend does not object 11 to arrange that Commission Counsel look through the 12 documents with this witness. I recognize he's on cross- 13 examination but this is not a court room. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And I think just, you 16 know, it just might be a better approach for the Commiss 17 -- to have Commission Counsel perhaps we will put the 18 Witness, just working through the documents. It depends 19 on Mr. Sandler's position on that. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You mean in 21 the Hearing itself? 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Or during the break. 23 You see during the break while he's reviewing them, 24 review them with Commission Counsel because had these 25 been given earlier --
501 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He would 2 have done that. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- I would have had 4 that opportunity. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 6 think he would object to that. 7 MR. MARK SANDLER: Well, with great 8 respect Commission Counsel had the documents I'm 9 referring to now before he completed his examination-in- 10 chief. And again, I'm not suggesting My Friend had to 11 deal with the documents. I'm just saying I -- I don't 12 want the appearance that there's any unfairness here. 13 In any event, if Commission Counsel wants 14 to read the documents to -- to Mr. George, I don't think 15 there should be a dialogue about them. But if -- if he 16 wants to facilitate that, I'm happy to do that. I trust 17 Commission Counsel. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 Well let's do that. Let's take a short break. It's as 20 long as we need. Let's -- let's aim for a fifteen (15) 21 minute break. If it takes longer than that then we'll 22 call what it is. 23 I think we'll take a break and let Mr. 24 George review the documents. Thank you very much. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess
511 for fifteen (15) minutes. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 11:20 a.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 12:01 p.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 9 I understand -- just before you say anything, I 10 understand that Counsel made an attempt, made an effort 11 to anticipate and co-operate and deal with this in 12 advance. 13 Unfortunately it didn't exactly work out 14 but I'm respectfully urging, pleading with Counsel, to 15 please try to anticipate and resolve these sort of 16 matters before so we don't have to waste our precious -- 17 I'm not saying it's wasted, we had to do it, but so we 18 don't use our precious Hearing time in this way. 19 So, we did what we had to do and I hope we 20 can get on with it. Mr. Worme...? 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Yeah, I was just going 22 to say, Mr. Commissioner, that I did, in fact, during 23 that break, which we appreciate, have an opportunity to 24 review with -- with Mr. George the materials that were 25 provided by Mr. Sandler.
521 I can tell you that other Counsel have 2 provided additional materials and will attempt to review 3 those under the same consent as -- as Mr. Sandler has 4 provided over the lunch hour. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much, Mr. Worme. Let's carry on. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 9 Q: Good morning again, Mr. George. 10 A: Yes sir. 11 Q: Mr. George, just before we had a 12 break, I had reviewed with you an article of April the 13 14th of 1998 about native Elders ousted. And I'm just 14 going to ask you about another article on the same topic, 15 very, very briefly and not in the same detail as -- as 16 the previous examination. 17 And this is an article dated April the 18 22nd of 1998. It is in the Forest Standard and the 19 heading is "Camp Occupiers at war with each other?", with 20 a question mark. 21 And I just want to ask you about several 22 items that are contained in the story that -- that is not 23 terribly dissimilar to the one that I've read out to you 24 previously. 25 If one looks just for the Commissioner's
531 benefit and My Friend's benefit to the bottom of the 2 second column on the first page, that's where I was going 3 to commence reading. It says: 4 "It appears that nearly all of the 5 original participants in the 1993 to 6 1995 gradual take over of the former 7 military base have left the property. 8 One of the original spokespersons, 9 Maynard George, and some of his family 10 are believed to be among an estimated 11 twenty-five (25) residents still on the 12 property." 13 And then skipping over to the next column: 14 "In a prepared statement, Rose Manning 15 and her family allege that Oneida and 16 Walpole Island peacekeepers on the 17 Government payroll are amongst those 18 threatening and harassing original 19 elders and their families. 20 Quote, "We have been threatened with 21 arms and we've taken up arms to defend 22 ourselves," closed quote. Manning's 23 statement said. Quote "Last week 24 around midnight, five (5) men came to 25 my home. I was there with one (1) of
541 my granddaughters," closed quote. 2 Manning said. 3 Quote "They threatened us with guns and 4 said I had to leave. One (1) of these 5 men is an Oneida peacekeeper, another 6 was from Walpole Island and the rest 7 were from Stony Point," closed quote, 8 Manning said. 9 The Stony Point elder said her family 10 persuaded her to leave for her own 11 safety but even as she prepared to 12 move, the threats continued, some by 13 men from other nations." 14 And then there's are reference a little 15 bit later on in the article to -- to peacekeeper Layton 16 Elijah, and I'm going to come back to that in a moment. 17 So, here Rose Manning is making an 18 allegation, apparently in the newspaper on April the 22nd 19 of 1998 that her family has taken up arms to defend their 20 selves against the threat of arms by others. Were you 21 aware of any of that? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: I mean, were you aware of the fact 24 that leaving aside whether you knew about the specific 25 events as described by Rose Manning, were you aware that
551 this was an issue that was being publicly discussed -- 2 that -- that elders were being ousted off -- off of the - 3 - the camp? 4 A: No, it never happened, sir. 5 Q: Apart from whether it happened or not, 6 where you aware that that was being discussed, in other 7 words, if there were newspaper stories that were out 8 there that you and others were leaving the camp because 9 of harassment or being threatened? Were you just unaware 10 that that was even raised in the public? 11 A: I -- I fear that's only one (1) of my 12 -- my deal -- that Rose Manning started this all herself 13 because she was causing a lot of trouble. She was asked 14 -- she was asked to leave completely, in a right time of 15 the day. I was aware of that when -- when -- when the 16 people went down there to tell her that she's been 17 nothing but trouble, that -- that she must leave. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: We, the council, made that out a long 20 time ago when they first formed the council -- any 21 troublemakers would be ousted. 22 Q: So she -- 23 A: Or asked to leave. 24 Q: All right. So this all had to do with 25 Rose Manning as a troublemaker and had --
561 A: As far as I can see, sir. 2 Q: -- and had nothing to do with any 3 outside agitators or any other problems within the camp. 4 Do I have your evidence correct? 5 A: Well, the -- the man you mentioned 6 there was -- was a -- was a peacekeeper. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: I -- I think he's still working there 9 today. 10 Q: Okay, and just in that context for a 11 moment, were -- were you aware back in April of 1998, 12 that Layton Elijah turned in to the authorities a twenty- 13 two (22) calibre sawed-off rifle with a magazine, Molotov 14 cocktails, and multiple rounds of ammunition located in 15 the former hospital on the base? 16 Were you aware that that had happened? 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: You weren't. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That was 20 1998, Mr. Sandler? 21 MR. MARK SANDLER: April 1998. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 24 Q: Were you aware of Molotov cocktails on 25 the base?
571 A: No, sir, never even heard of them. 2 Q: Okay. Sawed-off shotgun? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: Rifle? 5 A: There might have been some rifles 6 during the later -- later days of occupation because the 7 boys did go out hunting and -- but before -- before that 8 -- before the police come, they used to bring them home 9 to Kettle Point after -- after the hunting. 10 Q: Well, I mean, you and I know that 11 Molotov cocktails aren't used for hunting. 12 A: No. 13 Q: Right, of course, and -- and a twenty- 14 two (22) calibre sawed-off rifle. I mean, is that a 15 hunting weapon? 16 A: I -- I wouldn't say, so. No, sir. 17 Q: No, of course. I -- I take it that 18 you and I can agree on one (1) thing. If you had learned 19 that there was a twenty-two (22) calibre sawed-off rifle 20 and Molotov cocktails and multiple rounds of ammunition 21 within the camp, that would have disturbed you? 22 A: I would have done something about it, 23 sir, immediately. 24 Q: Of course. All right. And you 25 expect that that would have disturbed all of those
581 supporters that you -- that you described who quite 2 appropriately were helping out the Stony Pointers as long 3 as the protest remained peaceful, right? 4 A: As far as I know, sir, that -- that 5 would be my idea as keep peace in the family. 6 Q: Of course. 7 A: In our families we call it. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: Because, sir, I'll tell you one thing 10 too, by our church, the first building that we put up 11 there, we had a burial of the hatchet as I think you've 12 heard before. 13 We made a regular deal of it. We dug a 14 deep hole and the boys put make believe hatchets in there 15 that we're -- we're burying the hatchet for good and we 16 planted a -- we planted a tree on top of that deal and 17 that tree still exists today in a very good shape, sir. 18 Q: And -- and I accept that. Molotov 19 cocktails and sawed off rifles are not consistent with 20 burying the hatchet, are they? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No, or course. If -- if that 23 newspaper article could be the next exhibit please? P- 24 27? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-27, Your Honour.
591 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-27, thank 2 you. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-27: Newspaper article dated April 5 the 22nd of 1998. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 8 Q: Now ... 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 10 concerned about these newspaper articles and I would just 11 like clarification on them being accepted as exhibits. 12 Are they being accepted as just newspaper articles or are 13 they being accepted for the proof, the truthfulness of 14 what's in them. I find it number 1, irrelevant and 15 number 2, confusing. Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 Mr. Worme...? 18 MR. DONALD WORME: I think, Mr. 19 Commissioner, My Friend raises a good point. I would 20 submit that the articles are submitted not for the truth 21 of their contents unless of course the witness has 22 adopted it. 23 Certain statements have evidently 24 attributed to Mr. George throughout these various 25 articles and he is of course free to either adopt those
601 or to deny them. And it seems to me that -- that he has 2 done just that. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The articles 4 are being admitted -- are being submitted for newspaper 5 articles. Not for the truth of the articles except for 6 what he specifically admits, acknowledges and makes part 7 of his evidence. Is that what you're saying? 8 MR. DONALD WORME: That's -- that's our 9 submission. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that all 11 right, Mr. Ross? 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you. 13 MR. MARK SANDLER: Well if I -- if I 14 could just make a comment. With great respect one 15 shouldn't lose mind of this, that I made a comment the 16 last time we were here about the way in which evidence 17 was being admitted. 18 And it was my respectful submission at the 19 time that what was being permitted was hearsay and double 20 hearsay and evidence that couldn't meet any sort of 21 threshold of reliability. 22 And, Commissioner, you made the 23 appropriate point that when recognized as the latitude 24 that's given at a public inquiry and one's mindful of 25 that in the way witnesses are examined and the like. And
611 -- and for Commission Counsel and I say this with great 2 respect for Commission Counsel to -- and -- and I don't 3 hear this from Mr. Worme to be objecting to the newspaper 4 going in really is somewhat incompatible with the 5 approach that was taken when Mr. George was examined in- 6 chief. 7 My submission is that the documents are 8 being referred to for that reason. They're being filed 9 at the end of the piece you can make of them what you may 10 or may not make of them, whether they're hearsay or not 11 hearsay. 12 And I'm simply following the approach that 13 has been adopted earlier on and I don't think there 14 should be a difference standard depending on who's -- 15 who's questioning, I say with great respect. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross, do 17 you want to say anything because I think we're saying the 18 same thing a little differently. I don't think we're 19 saying anything any different. 20 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Just for clarification 21 I would like My Learned Friend to know, I'm not objecting 22 to this going in. I'm object -- I just want a 23 clarification that it's going as a newspaper article. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: So, it's not an
621 objection. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's carry 3 on. I keep reminding you this is an Inquiry and we can 4 admit all kinds of evidence, what weight it gets and how 5 much reliance we place on it, those are matters for 6 another day. 7 Yes, Mr. Sandler, carry on. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 10 Q: Thank you. Now, sir, what I'm going 11 to suggest to you is that 1998 was not the first time 12 that you had expressed concern about what was going on 13 within the camp. And in that regard, I'd like to show 14 you a newspaper article of July the 4th of 1995 in the 15 Sarnia Observer. And I'm going to ask you about some of 16 the contents of that article. 17 And this is entitled "Ipperwash Dispute 18 Heats Up", Sarnia Observer, July the 4th, 1995. And it's 19 by Paul Morden of the Observer. 20 And again I'll -- I'll read it very slowly 21 and then ask you about it, all right? 22 "Police have identified a suspect 23 believed to be responsible for two (2) 24 recent assaults; a death threat and a 25 case of mischief at native-claimed Camp
631 Ipperwash in Bosanquet. 2 Detective George Speck of the Ontario 3 Provincial Police said a warrant has 4 been issued for a First National 5 individual but the suspect's name is 6 not being released. 7 Police say that on June the 27th at 8 about 10:30 a.m. the suspect drove a 9 far -- farm tractor into a military 10 truck and then made a death threat 11 against the military driver. The 12 driver wasn't injured but there was an 13 estimated nine hundred dollars ($900) 14 damage to the truck. 15 The next day the suspect appeared at 16 the Camp's main gate and assaulted a 17 seventy (70) year-old security guard 18 and a range patrol officer, before 19 fleeing the scene. 20 Detective Speck said the guard and 21 officer were not seriously injured. 22 Also, on June 28th at about 2:00 a.m., 23 two (2) First Nations individuals in a 24 station wagon ran a military police 25 cruiser off of Highway 21. The station
641 wagon was chased into the camp and the 2 two (2) suspects fled on foot into the 3 woods. Police are also investigating a 4 suspected arson that caused five 5 thousand dollars ($5,000) in damage, 6 June 29th, to a small building at the 7 camp. 8 The land at Camp Ipperwash was taken 9 from its native owners by the Federal 10 Government during the Second World War. 11 Carl George, chief of the Stony Point 12 band that claimed it's members are the 13 lands rightful owners, said a small 14 breakaway group of people at the camp 15 are causing problems. Quote, "They're 16 acting on their own" close quote, he 17 said, quote, "I don't agree with it", 18 close quote. 19 In fact, chief George has advised 20 members of his group to leave the camp 21 for their own safety. They've occupied 22 the land since May 6th, 1993. 23 Clifford George, an Elder who has lived 24 at the camp since the occupation began, 25 has been threatened, chief George said.
651 While chief George expects the native 2 community will be blamed for recent 3 events at the camp, the real problem is 4 the Government. People in the 5 community are frustrated over the slow 6 pace of negotiations since the Federal 7 Government decided last year that it 8 would return the land. 9 It isn't the first time frayed tempers 10 have been blamed for violence at the 11 camp. In August '93, a bullet struck 12 and damaged a military helicopter 13 flying over the occupied camp. 14 Earlier that month, several buildings 15 at the camp were reported damaged by 16 vandalism and fire. Heading into this 17 summer, negotiations for the return of 18 the land appeared to be bogged down in 19 a swamp of accusations and law suits." 20 It's only that portion of the article that 21 I -- I need to read. 22 Now, first of all, chief Carl George is a 23 person know to you; am I right? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And at one point of time, the Stony
661 Pointers had elected him to represent you; am I right? 2 A: Yes, sir, they -- we had regular 3 meeting, they elect him. 4 Q: Of course. And back in 1995, was 5 Carl George regarded by the Stony Pointers as the chief 6 of the Stony Point band? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: All right. So, that's accurate. And 9 Carl George is quoted as saying that -- that: 10 "A small breakaway group of people at 11 the camp are causing problems. They're 12 acting on their own. I don't agree 13 with it." 14 Now, stopping there for a moment what, if 15 anything, is Carl George talking about here? 16 A: I wouldn't -- I'm not aware of 17 anything like that happening at all. 18 Q: Nothing like that? 19 A: No, sir. 20 Q: All right. So, if Carl George is 21 being quoted accurately, and I guess we'll hear at some 22 point down the road, the suggestion that's being made in 23 the article is that there have been a series of troubling 24 events that have occurred within the camp in the last few 25 days or weeks and that he's indicating that it's a small
671 breakaway group of people that are acting on their own 2 and he doesn't agree with the practice. 3 So, you have no explanation whatsoever for 4 what possible problems there could have been that might 5 be referred to in this article about Ipperwash dispute 6 heating up? 7 A: I'm not aware of anything like that, 8 sir -- 9 Q: No. 10 A: -- because I -- I would have heard 11 about it from the people themselves -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- that there was no such thing as a 14 small breakaway or anything like that, that I know of, 15 sir. 16 Q: All right. And then when the article 17 says: 18 "In fact, Chief George has advised 19 members of his group to leave the camp 20 for their own safety. They've occupied 21 the land since May 6, '93. Clifford 22 George, an elder who has lived at the 23 camp since the occupation began, has 24 been threatened, Chief George said." 25 A: Clifford George was never threatened --
681 of anyways, sir, I'm good -- I'm good friends with all of 2 them people down there. The come to me for advice, sir. 3 Q: Well, let me say it once that if 4 people were coming to you for advice that would be -- 5 that would be appropriate. In -- in that respect I 6 certainly agree with you. 7 So, insofar as the newspaper article 8 suggests that Chief George has talked about you being 9 threatened, there's no foundation to it whatsoever. 10 That's what you're saying? 11 A: All hearsay, sir. 12 Q: It's all -- 13 A: I've never been threatened by anyone, 14 anywhere. 15 Q: Okay. Well, when the article came 16 out, was it brought to your attention back in the summer 17 of 1995 that here was Carl George, Chief of the Stony 18 Point Band, that was making allegations in public that -- 19 that there's serious problem makers within the -- within 20 the camp? I mean, wasn't that even a topic of discussion 21 back in the summer of 1995? 22 A: Not -- not in our community, sir. It 23 was never -- never mentioned that there was a problem 24 problems there of any kind, sir, that I know of unless -- 25 unless Carl George is -- I know his own family moved away
691 but I don't think it was for -- for that reason. I -- I 2 don't know anything about that, sir. 3 Q: Well, you see that the newspaper 4 article makes reference to the fact that -- that there 5 were a series of incidents that have been alleged -- 6 assaults and death threats and mischiefs and potential 7 arsons and station wagons running military police 8 cruisers off of highway 21. I mean, were you unaware of 9 -- of any of that? 10 A: I've never heard of anything like 11 that, sir -- 12 Q: No? 13 A: -- on Highway 21. It should have been 14 in the -- it should have been in the news. I never heard 15 about anything like that, sir. It -- it could have 16 happened but not to my knowledge, sir. 17 Q: Well, if these things were happening 18 within the camp, I mean, is it something that you would 19 have heard about? 20 A: Why certainly I would have heard about 21 it -- 22 Q: I would have thought so. 23 A: -- or read about it in the paper. The 24 -- the arson I -- I can tell you about. There was a 25 young lady come from Muncey Reserve that come down and --
701 and she wasn't -- I don't know how to say this -- she 2 wasn't all -- she claimed that she was a descendent of 3 Stony Point and -- and -- and she was causing trouble 4 because she was -- she wasn't -- she was having problems 5 of her own, mentally. 6 And -- and she caused some trouble there 7 and she was asked to leave. She snuck back and set fire 8 to one (1) of the buildings on a -- on a north -- 9 northwest corner of -- of the -- the camp. The whole -- 10 the whole building was -- was destroyed completely and 11 that's the time that the -- that the -- that fire 12 departments would not come anywhere near the place even 13 though they were called. 14 Both Waimittigoaz Township and Bedford and 15 -- and Kettle Point were called but they -- they would 16 not respond, sir, so -- so the building went right down 17 to nothing. 18 Q: Now, was -- was this before the Stony 19 Pointers occupied the barracks or afterwards? 20 A: After, sir. 21 Q: After. And was this before or after 22 the shooting? 23 A: It -- it was probably after the 24 shooting, sir. 25 Q: Okay after the shooting. All right.
711 Now, what's interesting about the article and I expect 2 we're going to hear a fair bit of evidence about some of 3 the things that are -- that are there. 4 But one (1) of the people who was very 5 much involved in the First Nations' issues at Stony Point 6 was -- was Glen George, am I right? 7 A: Yes, he was, sir. 8 Q: All right. And was Glen George close 9 to you? 10 A: Well, we've good friends. I'm a good 11 friend with all of the family of Glen George. That's the 12 Dan George, he's from the Dan George family. 13 Q: Well, the reason I ask, was there a 14 point in time when Glen George took over the control of 15 the Stony Pointers within the camp from Carl George? 16 A: Not that I know of, sir. 17 Q: Well, you'd know that wouldn't you? 18 A: Well, at -- at that time I think -- I 19 think Carl George was the last chief elected before -- 20 before the -- the different families start moving off on 21 -- on account of the weather -- the winter coming. 22 Q: All right. Well, I guess what I'm 23 asking you is simply this. That -- that in the summer of 24 1995 I'm going to suggest to you that -- that some of the 25 very reasonable peaceful people such as Carl George
721 appeared no longer to have leadership within the camp and 2 that you expressed the view to others at that time that 3 you weren't in agreement with some of the activities that 4 were going on in within the base. 5 Isn't that true? 6 A: Not that I'm aware, sir. 7 Q: Well, again you'd be -- 8 A: I don't -- I don't know how that 9 happened whatsoever. 10 Q: All right. Well, I expect there may 11 be some evidence that on June the 22nd of 1995 -- the old 12 school bus within the camp tried to ram a military 13 vehicle. Were you aware of that event? 14 A: The only thing I'm aware of that -- 15 that the gate was rammed open by -- by the bus. And that 16 that was a takeover of the camp itself. 17 Q: Yes. Now I'm talking about something 18 prior to that. So you were unaware of what I just -- 19 A: I never heard of it because I was in 20 contact with the -- with the military people that were 21 there. They stopped by my -- by my house almost daily 22 when they were making their rounds and -- and then talked 23 with me. There was a -- I was in a good relationship 24 with them too, sir. 25 Q: All right. And then on July the 27th
731 of 1995, I expect that there's going to be some evidence 2 that Glen George drove his tractor into the side of a 3 military vehicle over a dispute about barricades being 4 set up and told the military to remove them or we'll get 5 our guns and shoot you. 6 Did you hear about that? 7 A: I -- I never heard about that, sir. 8 But -- but I do know that Glen George removed the 9 barricade inside the camp that -- that was right next to 10 the -- the little ravine that -- that's there. That's 11 where the barricade was. 12 But it's only a makeshift deal there that 13 -- that the army put up because we -- we made a deal with 14 them that was already -- already that they were entered 15 in there and Glen merely with that tractor pulled the 16 posts out that were holding the barricade. I seen that 17 myself. 18 Q: All right. So the answer to my 19 question is that what I put to you, you don't know about 20 one (1) way or the other? You don't know? 21 A: Except that -- that Glen George was 22 involved in -- in removing that barricade. It wasn't 23 much of a barricade, it was just a -- two (2) posts put 24 together and merely a board set across there to remind us 25 that -- that this is as far as you go.
741 Q: All right. Now on June the 28th, 2 1995 I expect that there will be some evidence that the 3 detachment commander from the OPP at Grand Bend met with 4 Glen George and other followers. 5 Were you present for such a meeting with 6 the OPP? 7 A: No, sir. No. 8 Q: And I expect that there'll be 9 evidence that on the same day another vehicle operated by 10 two (2) First Nations individuals rammed a military 11 cruiser on perimeter patrol or ran it off the road. 12 Were you aware of that? 13 A: I -- I've never even heard about it 14 on the news, it would have been if it was Highway 21, I - 15 - I never heard about it, sir. 16 Q: Well I read to you one of the 17 newspaper articles that addressed some of these. Were 18 you reading the papers regularly back then? 19 A: As much as I could, sir. 20 Q: Okay. So as I understand your 21 evidence and we may have to agree to disagree that -- 22 that all of these events that I'm describing were 23 completely unknown to you. You didn't even know that the 24 allegations had been made? 25 A: Most of it was, sir. Yes, sir.
751 Completely unknown to me because I was minding my own 2 business in my own home, sir. 3 Q: Okay. So that when the papers 4 reported on the Ipperwash dispute heating up, you didn't 5 see any heating up in the summer of 1995. As far as you 6 were concerned, everything -- 7 A: Not to that extent, sir, no. There - 8 - there was nothing heating up. Because we had good 9 relationship with -- with military people that were 10 there, regular soldiers, and we had good relationship 11 with -- with the last people that -- that were there. 12 The last cadets. 13 We allowed them to finish the whole -- 14 their whole session that year before any of this started. 15 We -- we allowed that. We told them that it was okay to 16 have this, but this would be the last one that they -- 17 the last summer that there -- that we were going to allow 18 them to -- to have cadet camp. 19 Q: Okay. Now, just while we're on this 20 -- this topic of what was going on in the summer of 1995, 21 did you have any direct dealings with OPP officers during 22 the summer of '95? 23 A: Well, I spoke to -- I spoke to quite 24 a number of them. I spoke to them. 25 Q: And in fairness --
761 A: Was -- was at -- at the barricade 2 that they -- they -- they put in -- at the corners of 3 every -- every four (4) corners there. There was -- 4 there was police stopping us -- stopping everyone. Was 5 at -- was at part of that, sir. 6 MR. MARK SANDLER: All right. Now moving 7 ahead for a moment, perhaps that newspaper article, 8 "Ipperwash dispute heats up", could be marked as the next 9 exhibit, please? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-29 your Honour. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 29. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-28: Newspaper article dated July 14 the 4th, 1995 entitled, 15 "Ipperwash Dispute Heats Up". 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 18 Q: I'm going to move ahead, if I may, 19 and -- to July the 29th of 1995 and I've already asked 20 you a little bit about this, so I'll be very brief. This 21 is the date that the school bus was used to take over the 22 barracks. 23 You remember we talked about that a little 24 bit earlier? 25 A: Yes, sir.
771 Q: Do you know who was driving the 2 school bus? 3 A: No, I would not. Only by hearsay. 4 Q: All right. And you don't know 5 anything about the circumstances that led to pepper spray 6 being employed on that date? 7 A: No, sir. Never heard about it. 8 Q: You never heard about it? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: Okay. Now, moving ahead, or back 11 slightly, if I can direct you to a newspaper article 12 dated July the 15th of 1995 and it's a Globe and Mail 13 article headed up, "Oneida Chiefs begin Oka-like talks to 14 end occupation of Ipperwash. Violent episodes escalate 15 tensions and confrontation at military camp". And it's 16 by Peter Moon. 17 And I'm just going to read just a small 18 part of this. This is actually an article that extends 19 on about four (4) pages. 20 "With tensions rising because of an 21 increasingly violent aboriginal 22 occupation of this military camp, two 23 (2) key Oneida negotiators from the 24 1990 Oka crisis have begun talks to 25 negotiate a peaceful resolution."
781 And then skipping to the middle of the 2 next column: 3 "What began as a peaceful occupation at 4 Ipperwash two (2) years ago has turned 5 into an increasingly ugly confrontation 6 between a small group within the 7 largely law abiding aboriginal 8 occupiers and a detachment of soldiers 9 and military police who are looking 10 after the camp until it can be turned 11 over to the nearby Chippewas of Kettle 12 and Stony Point First Nation." 13 And then skipping a paragraph: 14 "Since May, a gas training building has 15 been fire bombed, fire arms have been 16 discharged, military police and a 17 commissionaire assaulted, and two (2) 18 military police vehicles rammed. 19 Civilians using the beach on the Lake 20 Huron portion of the camp have been 21 confronted and assaulted. Last weekend 22 a woman was sexually assaulted on the 23 military beach and people in the 24 campsite at the adjacent Ipperwash 25 Provincial Park had to flee as a car
791 raced through this area and knocked 2 down a camper on the public beach in 3 the park. 4 Two (2) weekends ago, two (2) 5 patrolling Ontario Provincial Police 6 officers were forced to leave the 7 military base -- beach -- after being 8 confronted by about two (2) dozen 9 aboriginal occupiers. 10 In 1998, shortly after aboriginal 11 became occupying the base, a military 12 helicopter was hit by a bullet as it 13 flew over the camp. Some of the 14 occupiers say they've been assaulted 15 and harassed by the military police. 16 As a result, the occupying aboriginal 17 people patrol the portion of the camp 18 that the army no longer controls. They 19 order anybody who's not aboriginal off 20 the land." 21 And then there's a discussion about how 22 many people are on the property and then it goes on to 23 say: 24 "On weekends, many aboriginal people 25 from the surrounding area camp among
801 the dunes near the shore. The majority 2 are peaceful and regard the land as 3 theirs. 4 They say the confrontations with the 5 police and non-aboriginal people 6 involve only a small militant group, 7 however, police in Canada and the 8 United States have been monitoring 9 visits to the area by militant 10 aboriginal people from both countries. 11 They include activists from Ontario, 12 Quebec and New York State. 13 There's been the odd person down there 14 we might have had a little concern 15 about, OPP Detective Constable George 16 Speck said, but they've never done 17 anything. Detective Constable Speck 18 said he's concerned about the situation 19 but he stressed that so far that 20 violence and criminal acts have not 21 resulted in serious injury." 22 And then skipping down: 23 "The MPs operate out of the camp's 24 former hospital which has been 25 sandbagged on the inside because of
811 random shooting. The army has stopped 2 patrolling the rest of the camp because 3 of frequent encounters with aboriginal 4 people and the potential for further 5 violence." 6 Then there's a discussion about the 7 negotiators -- what the negotiators are going to try to 8 do. And then skipping to the next page in the last 9 column: 10 "Chief Thomas Bressette of the Kettle 11 and Stony Point First Nation said his 12 band wants to be part of the cleanup of 13 the base to ensure that it is handed 14 over in a safe and acceptable 15 condition. He said the Band wants 16 additional compensation for what he 17 called a theft and a rip-off. Mr. 18 Bressette said the Band Council is not 19 supporting the occupiers on the land. 20 "We support a peaceful, negotiated 21 settlement in this issue," he said. 22 "There's lawlessness down there, it's 23 getting out of hand". 24 Campers in Ipperwash Provincial Park 25 said they're concerned. Some this week
821 said that they're carrying rifles in 2 the trunks of their cars to protect 3 their children. "People are getting 4 sick and tired of this." said one (1) 5 fellow from London. "This was always a 6 peaceful place. You don't know what's 7 going on. You talk to the OPP and they 8 say there's nothing that they can do." 9 Now, there's a couple of themes in -- in 10 that article that I want to ask you about. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 12 you do, Mr. Sandler, what's the year of the article? 13 MR. MARK SANDLER: It's 1995 -- it's July 14 15, 1995. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's a 16 reference in the article to a 1998 date. I take it 17 that's a mistake? I assume that, I mean, on the second 18 page, it says something happened in 1998 -- should be 19 '93, I suppose -- on the second page. I think when you 20 read it, you said '98 -- on the second page about -- 21 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yeah, I think -- I had 22 -- I had read that as '90 -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Eight. 24 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- 3. It's kind of 25 hard -- it's '93. I'm sorry.
831 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It should be 2 '93? 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 5 Q: Yes. Yes. Now, there are several 6 themes that are in that article that I want to ask you 7 about. 8 A: Yes sir. 9 Q: The first is that it's suggested that 10 tensions are rising because of an -- an increasing level 11 of violence that's taking place in the occupation of the 12 military camp and is it your evidence that you were 13 unaware of -- of any violence whatsoever that was being 14 committed by anyone within the camp back in the summer of 15 1995? 16 A: No, sir. I never ever seen or heard 17 of any violence or anything like that going on. 18 Q: Either directly or by hearsay, you're 19 saying you haven't heard of a single event of violence 20 committed by anyone within that camp? 21 A: At that time, no, sir. Because there 22 was not -- because we're all peaceful, we're all 23 together, we're all mostly related that was there. And 24 the people that come there from other reserves, they were 25 peaceful. There was one -- one point I will make about
841 that -- people are chased out of the -- out of the lake 2 there were drunk. 3 And they -- they run away, they sped 4 through to the road which is Camp Ipperwash Road and they 5 -- they were going so fast they didn't know where they 6 were because they were all drunk. Yes, they were told to 7 remove themselves and they got into trouble there when -- 8 when they went over the road and damaged their car. That 9 was the incidence that was told to me. 10 Q: All right. So, apart from that, you 11 were unaware either directly or indirectly of a single 12 act of violence committed by a single person within the 13 camp in the summer of 1995; do I have that right? 14 A: Yes. Quite right because we're all 15 friendly, we're all living -- living down the beach area 16 for a matter of fact in makeshift places all along the 17 beach there. 18 Q: Okay. And the -- when the newspaper 19 article quotes members of the First Nation community 20 saying that the violence or the confrontations are 21 attributable only to a small militant group, you have no 22 idea what even First Nations people are talking about 23 because there was no small militant group within the 24 camp? 25 A: No there was not. There never was,
851 sir. 2 Q: All right. And when Chief Tom 3 Bressette indicated that -- that there's lawlessness down 4 there that is getting out of hand, what comment do you 5 have to say about that, sir? 6 A: That is his interpretation I think 7 because he didn't want us there to start off with. He -- 8 he wrote a bad article about us in the paper that he 9 denied but we showed it to him. He says I don't want 10 them -- Potawatomis don't belong there. I want them out 11 of there. That was his statement. 12 I approached -- I approached to him about 13 that and -- and he denied it. And I said that we got the 14 paper right here. And that's the time he -- he left and 15 -- and didn't say another word about that, sir. But he 16 was always opposed to us going in there. 17 Q: He was -- he was opposed first of all 18 to you occupying the camp at all. 19 A: Yes, sir, he was. He was opposed to 20 it right from the start. 21 Q: I understand. And second of all when 22 the park was occupied, Chief Bressette took the position 23 that there was no entitlement to go into the park, didn't 24 he? 25 A: Oh yes. He was -- he was quoted to
861 saying and they -- they got a tape on him coming from 2 Toronto when he says I want them people out of there. He 3 was still maintaining that -- 4 Q: Out of the park? 5 A: -- we'd -- we'd already occupied the 6 place. 7 Q: So -- so, again and without 8 reflecting on the merits of the different positions here, 9 what is clear is that -- that you and Chief Tom Bressette 10 and the position that he represented were very much at 11 odds over -- over your entitlement to occupy the land? 12 A: Yes just for that. We were Stony 13 Pointers, he was -- he was Kettle Pointer that blamed us 14 being -- being Potawatomi's that didn't belong there 15 anywhere. 16 Q: I understand that. 17 A: When he himself come -- come from the 18 States. His family come from the States, he's a 19 Bressette. 20 Q: I understand that. But apart from 21 that issue, apart from whether or not he felt that you 22 should be speaking for First Nations in the discussions 23 with the Government and apart from the issue about 24 whether you should even be occupying the camp, here is 25 Chief Bressette if the newspaper article accurately
871 reflects what he had to say being quoted as expressing 2 the concern that there's lawlessness that has gotten out 3 of had within the camp. Now -- now, is that just made 4 up? Is that what you're saying? 5 A: It sure was, sir, because there was 6 no such a thing. 7 Q: All right. Okay. Now, I then would 8 like to take you to a letter from Chief Bressette dated 9 August 3rd of 1995. It's on the letterhead of Kettle and 10 Stony Point Council. Before I take you to it, perhaps 11 the last newspaper article could be marked as an exhibit 12 please, Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-30, Your 15 Honour. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 17 what number? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-30. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 30. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-29: Four (4) page newspaper 22 article dated July the 15th 23 of 1995. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER:
881 Q: And here we have a letter from -- 2 signed by chief Tom Bressette, Kettle and Stony Point 3 First Nation to the Kettle and Stony Point band members 4 who are occupying Camp Ipperwash. 5 And it's dated August the 3rd of 1995. 6 "I'm writing this letter in hopes of 7 clarifying several issues and 8 attempting to find a way to resolve our 9 disputes internally. 10 First of all, the majority of the 11 community members who attended the 12 community meeting feel the non-Band 13 members occupying the Stony Point land 14 should be thanked for their support and 15 respectfully asked to leave. 16 This does not include the Band members. 17 We've developed a statement of 18 principles for negotiating the return 19 of the Stony Point lands. It contains 20 seven (7) principles that have 21 attempted to include all interests and 22 concerns. This document was 23 distributed for comments and feedback 24 for possible amendments. 25 The negotiating process is starting to
891 begin and I feel it's important for you 2 to get your issues and concerns 3 addressed. We're hoping you will take 4 advantage of this process and become 5 involved. The Government will only 6 deal with this Council. Therefore it 7 is important for you to work with us as 8 that is the way we always conducted 9 ourselves during our historical 10 relationship." 11 Now, let me say to you at once, that I 12 understand the dispute between chief Bressette and the 13 Stony Pointers about who's entitled to speak in relation 14 to the occupation of the camp and the lands associated 15 with it. 16 That's not what I'm going to ask you 17 about. Your position is crystal clear about that. But 18 one (1) of the things that is in this letter is that: 19 "The majority of the community members 20 who attended the community meeting feel 21 the non-band members occupying the 22 Stony Point lands should be thanked for 23 their support and respectfully asked to 24 leave. 25 This does not include the band
901 members." 2 Now, in August 1995 there were non-band 3 members occupying the camp as well as band members, were 4 there not? 5 A: Well, maybe I put it this way, we 6 invited different people come down and -- and made 7 friends with us that were very well in support of us. 8 And I can say truthfully again that we had all our 9 surrounding reservations giving us notice that they were 10 in support of us. 11 Tom Bressette went around to all of them 12 and said, we don't need you, this is the internal matter. 13 The only internal was himself and -- and -- and some of 14 the occupiers there. 15 Q: All right. So -- 16 A: It's a well-known fact, sir. 17 Q: Okay. And so there were non-band 18 members that were occupying the camp as well as band 19 members. We know that so far, right? 20 A: Well, there was this -- there were 21 this person hired -- hired by -- by somebody to be a 22 overseer of the place. He -- he is -- he still is in 23 that job. I -- I don't even know who hired him to start 24 off with. That's that Layton Elijah, that's -- what 25 you've talking about.
911 Q: Okay. Now, what I'm interested in is 2 this. You and I have -- have talked about some of the 3 issues that were or were not going on within the camp 4 from 1995 to 1998 and I expect that there's going to be 5 evidence, Mr. George. 6 And in fairness I'll outline a little bit 7 of it to you that -- that the medical personnel within 8 the base will describe a number of occasions on which 9 they hear the discharge of firearms from within the 10 occupied portion of the camp. 11 And I expect that there are going to be 12 medical records or evidence that would show that on 13 various occasions military personnel describe 14 confrontations with occupiers that -- where rifles are 15 being brandished in a threatening way. 16 And I expect that there may well be 17 evidence from OPP officers that describe either hearing 18 the discharge of firearms from within the camp or being 19 confronted with -- with the obvious physical presence of 20 a -- of a firearm or, alternatively threatening, that 21 uses terms like, "We'll do our talking with guns" 22 And I expect that there's going to be some 23 evidence that -- that turned over from within the camp -- 24 and I provided you an example earlier on was -- weaponry 25 that would appear to be inconsistent with simply hunting.
921 And what I want to ask you is this, that: 2 Is it your evidence that for the period of time that you 3 were at the camp -- and this is 1993 to 1998 -- you were 4 unaware of a single incidence in which anyone on the camp 5 had anything other than a rifle that would be 6 traditionally used for hunting; is that your evidence? 7 A: I wasn't even aware of the -- that 8 anybody had -- had any rifles because they never showed 9 them. And -- and I can tell you why I think this, 10 because the day after they claimed that this helicopter 11 was shot there was maybe about twenty (20) OPP officers 12 walked in the camp and -- and -- and -- and told us to 13 leave our -- all our houses or our dwellings and they 14 systematically searched all through the whole deal down 15 there to look for weapons; they couldn't find one (1), 16 sir. 17 Q: Okay. Now, I'm going to deal with the 18 helicopter incident if you just bear with me for a 19 moment. 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: Because I want to -- I want to move -- 22 move in a somewhat logical sense but I just want to 23 understand your evidence. Did you never hear through the 24 period of time that you were there from '93 to '98, the 25 discharge of firearms within the camp? Not once?
931 A: Never ever heard a one (1), sir. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: Never ever heard one (1) going off 4 anywhere -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- and I was always around the whole 7 district. Periodically I went down to the park. I've 8 been all over the place. 9 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, I want to 10 move ahead to September of 1995 and we know that it -- it 11 was in September of that year that the park was taken 12 over and were you involved in discussions about taking 13 over the park before it was taken over? I'm not 14 interested in afterwards for the time being? 15 A: No, sir, I wasn't. 16 Q: So -- 17 A: I wasn't involved in that part of it. 18 It was -- but afterwards when -- when the -- when the OPP 19 started moving in, I was asked if they should give up. 20 By that time I knew that -- that it would be useless to - 21 - to give up at that time because I knew -- I call it the 22 hitsquad were there and it would be dangerous for them to 23 give up. And that we are on rightful grounds there 24 because I knew of the burials, I knew of everything 25 that's -- that's ever happened there.
941 Q: Okay. And -- and I don't mean to cut 2 you off and you can certainly speak longer on the point 3 if you'd like but I'm just interested in before the park 4 was taken over. 5 A: No, I wasn't there before. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I wasn't in discussion with -- with 8 whomever were going to take the park over. 9 Q: So -- so, you didn't even hear about 10 any discussions about the park being taken over before it 11 happened? 12 A: Only after it happened, sir. 13 Q: Only after. All right. And is it 14 fair to say that up until that point in time -- and again 15 I'm confining myself to the point in time up to the 16 takeover of the park, not afterwards -- you had a very 17 nice relationship with the OPP and you had no 18 difficulties with the OPP; am I right? 19 A: I never had no difficulty with 20 anybody, sir. 21 Q: I understand. 22 A: I ain't gotta be that way. 23 Q: All right, but including the OPP? 24 A: Including the OPP. 25 Q: Okay. Now, you indicated that you
951 oppose the taking over of the park though you expressed 2 the view that once you're there you should stay and what 3 I'm going to suggest to you is that there were several 4 reasons why you opposed the taking over of the park, 5 weren't there? 6 A: I spoke to one (1) person about that, 7 sir, because he come and asked me if -- if he should give 8 up and -- and leave. 9 Q: I'm not talking about the giving up 10 and leave, I'm talking about the original decision to go 11 into the park because one (1) of the things that you did 12 say -- 13 A: I -- I said it should -- it should 14 have waited. I wasn't opposed to it. I -- I was -- it 15 was the wrong time. 16 Q: What made it the wrong time? 17 A: Well, several -- several incidents 18 that -- that should have been -- that I would have 19 changed had I been asked about it. 20 Q: Well, what was it about it -- 21 A: For -- for one (1) thing there was no 22 need to burn that building. I was very opposed to that. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: The rest of it, no, there's not much 25 I can tell you about the rest of it. That was one (1) of
961 the main reasons that I said that -- that -- that it 2 shouldn't have been burned, that we could have used it 3 eventually. 4 Q: All right. But one (1) of the 5 concerns that you had was that you didn't want what was a 6 peaceful, as far as you were concerned, and legitimate 7 occupation of the camp to become problematic because of 8 the takeover of the park. Isn't that -- isn't that so? 9 A: I was probably peeved because they 10 didn't consult me. After all, I'm the Elder there. 11 Q: All right. Well, now just moving on 12 for a moment. When the park was taken over, I expect 13 that we're going to hear evidence that the OPP withdrew 14 from the park and that no First Nations individual was 15 injured when the park was taken over. 16 You certainly have no information that on 17 the day the park was taken over any First Nations 18 individual was injured in any way, right? 19 A: I -- I haven't heard about it, sir. 20 Q: Okay. And I expect there will be 21 evidence, however, that when the park was taken over an 22 OPP vehicle, at least one (1), was damaged. OPP cruiser 23 window was -- was broken and later on, other OPP vehicles 24 were damaged. 25 Were -- were you aware of that back then?
971 A: I've seen it on TV, sir. 2 Q: Okay, but apart from TV, were -- were 3 you made aware of that when the events were occurring or 4 shortly after the events occurring? 5 A: I just heard that the OPP went -- 6 went in there very militantly and -- and -- and that is 7 why the confrontation there, sir. But it was not -- not 8 -- no real violence. 9 Q: So -- so were you provided an 10 explanation at the time for -- for why someone felt it 11 appropriate to -- to strike and -- strike and destroy the 12 -- the cruiser window of the OPP vehicle that was -- 13 A: That was probably come just automatic 14 in -- in a -- in a scramble with the OPP because they 15 were -- they were never friendly with us. 16 Q: They were never friendly. But you 17 see, up until this point in time, you didn't have the 18 slightest bit of problem with the OPP. You've said it 19 yourself. 20 A: I respect authority, sir. Always 21 did. 22 Q: All right. Well, any bid, we'll have 23 to hear from others about what occurred then. 24 A: I was hoping, sir, that -- that you'd 25 come to that, because there's several people here will
981 verify every word that I say here. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: And they're going -- they're going to 4 come up in a later date. I've seen -- I've seen a list 5 of -- of who's going to be called up to testify and -- 6 and a big part of them are will -- will tell you people 7 exactly -- they were -- they were right there. 8 Q: All right. I'm sure the Commissioner 9 will look forward to hearing from everybody that 10 contributes to that issue. 11 A: Thank you. 12 Q: Now, I'd like to direct your 13 attention, for a moment, and -- and I guess I'll ask you 14 this as well, just before I do, that I expect there'll 15 also be evidence that -- that before Dudley George was 16 shot, some of the First Nations occupiers came out of the 17 part and damaged a vehicle belonging a Kettle Point 18 Councillor. 19 Were you aware of that at the time? 20 A: He was causing in trouble, sir. 21 Q: He was causing trouble? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: All right. So, it was justified to 24 damage his vehicle. Is that what you're saying? 25 A: Well, not really in anger -- in
991 anger, perhaps -- 2 Q: It was in anger? 3 A: I'm liable to do the same thing. 4 Q: I mean, if you were giving advice to 5 the people who were involved in the occupation of the 6 park, I suggest you would have said to them that the 7 better course is to remain within the park and make your 8 point within the park, right? 9 A: I understand that same -- that same 10 Councillor was the one that give OPP the wrong 11 information about weapons in there. He went -- 12 Q: Ahh -- 13 A: -- and told them there's weapons in 14 there, sir. And then that's -- we were all mad about 15 that because he had no rights to -- to tell such a 16 horrible lie against his own people. 17 Q: All right. So -- so your 18 interpretation is that what he said about the weapons 19 within the park was a lie -- 20 A: False, completely. 21 Q: -- and that was why -- that explained 22 why his car was damaged outside the park. 23 A: Well, possibly what -- whatever else 24 he told this -- this occupier. 25 Q: Okay, I understand that. But I asked
1001 you something a little bit different and I suspect that 2 you're going to agree with me, and that is that -- that 3 if you were giving advice to the occupiers within the 4 park, whatever your view of what Councillor George had to 5 say, the advice that you would have given to the 6 occupiers within the park would have been that you know, 7 this is a potentially tense situation, remain with the 8 park. 9 That would be good advice that you would 10 have given as an Elder if you'd been asked, am I right? 11 A: Possibly, yes, sir. 12 Q: Yeah, okay. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Sandler, 14 it's one o'clock. 15 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes, that would be a 16 convenient time. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I try 18 to remind -- you did make an estimate of how long you 19 were going to be on cross-examination. You've far 20 exceed that because I'm not sure estimates would be all 21 that valuable at this point. But can you make an 22 estimate as to how much longer you might be? 23 MR. MARK SANDLER: I know that that's an 24 unforeseen event that Counsel mis-estimate their time but 25 I --
1011 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. It's a 2 usual thing, it happens frequently. 3 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'd say -- I'd say an 4 hour and a bit. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That long? 6 MR. MARK SANDLER: It is going much more 7 slowly than I thought but -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 9 Well why don't we take a lunch break now from 1:00 to 10 2:15 and we'll continue at that time. 11 MR. MARK SANDLER: Thank you very much. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 13 adjourned until 2:15 p.m. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 1:00 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 2:20 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed. Please be seated. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 21 MR. MARK SANDLER: Thank you. 22 Commissioner, before I continue on, I last made reference 23 to the letter from Chief Bressette to the occupiers at 24 Camp Ipperwash and I don't believe that has been marked 25 yet as an exhibit.
1021 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought it 2 was. That was a letter of August -- 3 THE REGISTRAR: It's not marked as an 4 exhibit. 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: All right. Could that 6 be the next exhibit, please? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: August the 8 3rd? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-30: August 3rd letter from Chief 16 Bressette to the occupiers at 17 Camp Ipperwash. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 20 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 21 A: Good afternoon. 22 Q: Mr. George, I do have some additional 23 areas but I'm going to try to do them as quickly as I can 24 not because I'm going to wear you out, but I'm afraid 25 you're going to wear me out. So, I think if we may, I d
1031 like to ask you a few questions about dialogue that you 2 had with the OPP officers on September the 6th of 1995. 3 And I can advise you that in the documents 4 that have been produced to all of the parties, there's a 5 statement from James Christie who's a senior constable or 6 was at the time, with the OPP. And I'm just going to 7 read you a part of that statement and ask you if it 8 accurately reflects what transpire on September the 6th. 9 He says that on September the 6th he was 10 assigned to checkpoint Delta, and I don't expect you to 11 know the names of the checkpoints, with other emergency 12 response team members. This checkpoint was just down the 13 road from the main entrance of the army base. 14 "Our assignment was to check vehicles 15 leaving and entering the base. This 16 was commenced at about 8:00 a.m. and 17 lasted til approximately 6:30 in the 18 evening. 19 During the afternoon the vehicle with 20 'OPP WHO' painted on its doors was 21 observed racing around the base with 22 its siren on. At one (1) time it was 23 chasing another black car. This black 24 car lost control going around the 25 buildings and nearly struck one (1) of
1041 them. The occupants in the OPP WHO 2 vehicle gave us the finger when they 3 drove by. 4 Later on that day Clifford George came 5 and talked to us and showed some of the 6 carvings he did. I ended up buying one 7 (1)turtle carving for a present for my 8 wife. Clifford George said we could 9 come and have a coffee with him at his 10 house but Mark Cloes, C-L-O-E-S --" 11 Who was the other officer with him, 12 "-- and I declined." 13 And I won't read the balance of the 14 statement. 15 Now, first of all you remember that on 16 September 6th which is before, earlier in the day before 17 the shooting, there were checkpoints manned by OPP 18 officers around the camp. 19 We've already talked about that earlier, 20 right? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Okay. And he makes reference to an 23 event occurring involving a vehicle with the "OPP WHO" 24 painted on its doors. Was there a vehicle of that 25 description within the camp.
1051 A: Yes, I know the vehicle still -- 2 still exists. 3 Q: All right. Was that a vehicle that 4 someone in particular drove? 5 A: Not that I know of, not -- not 6 necessarily. 7 Q: You say, not necessarily? 8 A: It -- it was -- it was driven around 9 the camp. I -- I don't know who was -- who owned it or - 10 - whatever. But I -- I know it -- it existed. Even 11 today it's still -- it's still there. 12 Q: But back then, did Dudley George drive 13 that vehicle? 14 A: Pardon? 15 Q: Was he one (1) of the people? 16 A: Who? 17 Q: Did Dudley George drive that vehicle 18 as one (1) of the people who -- who was using it? 19 A: I don't think Dudley George even drove 20 a car that I know of. At least I wasn't aware of -- that 21 Dudley even -- even ever drove car. Seems to me he told 22 me that he didn't. 23 Q: So, he didn't even drive a car? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And did you see this incident with the
1061 "OPP Who" car kind of driving around and chasing another 2 black car which lost control? 3 A: No, I didn't -- I didn't see it but 4 I'm aware of some of -- some of the things that happened, 5 you know, in -- in that deal because I -- but I -- I 6 couldn't tell you for sure whether -- 7 Q: All right. And then there's a 8 description to the occupants in the "OPP Who" vehicle 9 giving the OPP officers at the checkpoint the finger when 10 they drove by. You didn't see that, I'm taking it? 11 A: No, I don't. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Because them -- them officers were 14 there -- were there for quite some time previous to that 15 and I got to know them and then -- and then when they 16 stopped me I got to talk -- talk to them, so -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: So -- and they were not only at that - 19 - around the camp, they were -- they were all over the 20 whole district. OPP had blocked off highways and blocked 21 off everywhere. 22 Q: All right, but I -- I'm going to try 23 to remain focussed on just this statement for the time 24 being. "Later on that day, Clifford George 25 came and talked to us, showed us some
1071 of his carvings. I ended up buying one 2 (1) for a present for my wife. 3 Clifford George said we could come and 4 have a coffee with him at his house but 5 the officers had to decline." 6 Do you remember that? 7 A: Yes, I remember asking them if they 8 wanted a coffee and they could come over any time. 9 Q: All right. Two (2) very polite OPP 10 officers. 11 A: Yeah, they also warned me that that 12 was their last -- last day. At 6:00 they were being 13 pulled out, that the special force was taking over at 14 6:00 and they -- they told me to watch out. 15 Q: Okay, good. You've anticipated my 16 next question which is: The same fellow who -- who talked 17 to you about your carvings and who ended up buying a 18 turtle carving for his wife -- this is the same person 19 who -- who gave you the warning that you've described? 20 A: They were -- they were the same two 21 (2) -- two (2) officers that were at that checkpoint. 22 Q: Right. So it was one (1) of those two 23 (2). 24 A: I was -- I was going in and out 25 because I had to get my water in Forest and -- and --
1081 because I didn't trust the camp water. At that time, I - 2 - I went into Forest and got that, so I was out there 3 maybe once or twice a day, sometimes never. 4 Q: I remember but I'm just asking about 5 the comment that you've described to His Honour and we've 6 been through the comment; I'm just asking whether the 7 comment was made by one (1) of these two (2) officers who 8 had this dialogue with you over your carvings. 9 A: Yes, yes. 10 Q: Same officers? 11 A: Yes, I -- I imagine -- I imagine he -- 12 he told about it. I -- I remember the carvings. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I'd done several carvings at that 15 time. 16 Q: All right and when the officer had 17 this conversation with about -- about the type of people 18 that were coming later on, did you communicate that 19 conversation to anybody else within the camp? 20 A: I don't recall, sir. 21 Q: All right, well, it would have been a 22 sufficient to you, wouldn't it have been to tell some of 23 the other people at the camp? 24 A: Well, I sometimes got busy and -- and 25 intended to do it -- do it later. At -- at that time I -
1091 - I don't remember if I did or not. It was the middle of 2 the afternoon, I think, so the time I talked to him and - 3 - and the only reason I made my trip around to the -- 4 well, I just made my trips around most of the time. 5 Q: Okay. And the other thing I want to 6 ask you about, do you remember on occasion speaking to 7 Peter Edwards, who's the gentleman over here from the 8 Toronto Star who -- who wrote a book about the whole 9 Ipperwash matter? 10 A: Yes, I know him quite well, sir. 11 Q: Okay. Did you ever to describe to him 12 prior to the publication of his book, this comment that 13 this OPP officer made about the people who were coming 14 later? 15 A: I probably did, sir. 16 Q: But, do you remember doing so? 17 A: Well, I -- I likely did. I talked to 18 many, many people there, you know, when then come in. 19 Q: I understand. 20 A: There were lots of people. 21 Q: I -- I didn't see it anywhere in his 22 book so I was wondering if you raised it with him when 23 you discussed some of the other things that -- that you 24 said happened. 25 A: I -- I think it was much earlier --
1101 earlier than all this happening when -- when I had that 2 time with -- with Pete Edwards. 3 Q: All right. Now, if I can switch 4 topics, I want to ask you a little bit about this 5 helicopter incident. 6 Now, again, Your Honour, I've referred to 7 the statement of James Christie and recognizing the 8 purposes for which it was referred to perhaps we should 9 give it an exhibit number subject to the comments that 10 have earlier been made. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-31, Your Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P.31. Yeah. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: If it's for 15 identification, I think it's appropriate. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-31: Statement of James Christie. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 20 Q: I'm just going to ask you about the 21 helicopter a little bit. And now we're going back, I can 22 tell you, to August the 23rd of 1993; all right? That's 23 when I expect everybody will agree that -- that the 24 incident involving the alleged shooting of the helicopter 25 took place.
1111 All right, you -- you can take that from 2 me as a given? 3 A: Yes, I do, sir. 4 Q: Okay. August 23rd of 1993. And when 5 you were asked by Mr. Worme about -- about the shooting 6 of the helicopter and I'll just take a moment to refresh 7 your memory as to what you had to say about it, at page 8 103 of the transcript of the previous day's proceedings 9 at -- at line 17 you were asked these questions and gave 10 these answers: 11 "Prior to the army pulling out, leaving 12 voluntarily I think as you put it, 13 we've heard some evidence about an 14 incident in the camp in relation to a 15 helicopter? 16 A: Well, yes, I was there. I was 17 there then to start off with. Three 18 (3) cruisers stopped right at the 19 roadway, right where -- right where the 20 helicopter was going to come around and 21 buzz because these people are living 22 there, children and the women were 23 running screaming in there they dived 24 so low, scaring us. Harassment 25 completely. And that -- that -- that
1121 was then they -- that was when they 2 said they were shot at." 3 And then you started to describe your 4 conversation with Mr. Ewart which I'll come back to in a 5 moment. And then there was another reference that I'll 6 just put to you at page 109 and then Mr. Worme says: 7 "In any event, Cliff, you were informed 8 something with respect to the 9 helicopter incident? 10 A: I was -- I was there close by when 11 the shooting was on at -- when the 12 diving was gone and when the police 13 were lined up in there. I was present 14 very close to that place. The only 15 place I was not present was when -- 16 when Mr. Ewart went to London on his 17 own and he came back with a story that 18 it wasn't a bullet wound that went 19 through the helicopter. It looked like 20 a three-pronged deal. You would notice 21 in a pick axe and I think you get the 22 evidence from him any time. He's 23 willing to come and testify, I know 24 that." 25 All right. You remember giving that
1131 testimony last time we were here? 2 A: What is his name, sir? 3 Q: Sorry. 4 A: What is the name of that man I was 5 talking to? 6 Q: Mr. Worme, here. 7 A: No, the -- the -- 8 Q: Mr. Ewart. Scott Ewart. 9 A: Yes, yes, sir. 10 Q: Right. Okay. Now, what I want to be 11 clear on is that on August 23rd, 1993 when the alleged 12 shooting of the helicopter took place, you weren't even 13 at the camp; am I right? 14 A: I beg your pardon. I was. 15 Q: Well -- 16 A: I was standing -- I was standing 17 right there. I noticed -- I saw the -- the cruisers 18 there and I expected that they were waiting for something 19 to happen. I was there, sir. 20 Q: Okay. Because we have a document 21 that's headed up and it's in typing and it's also in 22 writing, headed up "Interview report Ontario Provincial 23 Police". And it says "Name: Clifford George, date of 24 birth: March 20, 1911"; and is that your date of birth? 25 A: No, sir.
1141 Q: What's your -- 2 A: 11th of March, 1920. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: 11th of March, 1920. 5 Q: Oh, I've read it backwards, I'm 6 sorry. You're right and I'm wrong. 11 March 20. So 7 that is your correct date? 8 A: That's my date of birth, sir. 9 Q: Right. And it says "Residence 10 address Stony Point" and it also has Port Edward there. 11 And it says -- and does that accurately reflect where you 12 were living at the time? 13 A: Yes, sir. I lived in Point Edward 14 prior to -- to moving to Stony Point. 15 Q: And it says, "Name of employer: 16 retired" and in brackets "(Elder)" and that's accurate I 17 take it? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And it's got a residence telephone 20 number there, 332-6671; was that your telephone at the 21 time? 22 A: That's the Point Edward one, sir. 23 Q: Okay, good. And it says interviewed 24 by Detective, and I believe it says Harris, though it's 25 not entirely clear from the document. And the interview
1151 takes place on August the 23rd of 1993. And it says: 2 "On the 23rd of August '93, I was in my 3 other residence in Point Edward for the 4 past couple of days." 5 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm sorry to rise but 6 I think My Friend should be corrected. The date of the 7 interview is actually the 26th of August, pardon me. 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: I think I said, that 9 didn't I? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think 11 you said 23rd. 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: Oh, I'm sorry. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 14 Inadvertently. 15 MR. MARK SANDLER: 26th. Thank you for 16 that correction. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 19 Q: So the interview was the 26th and so 20 I'll read it again: 21 "On the 23rd of August '93 I was in my 22 other residence in Point Edward for the 23 past couple of days." 24 Now, do you remember providing a statement 25 to the OPP about what you knew or didn't know about the
1161 helicopter shooting? 2 A: I don't recall, I probably did. 3 Q: Probably did. And what I'm going to 4 suggest is that what you told the OPP, and you were 5 honest with the OPP were you not? 6 A: I'm always honest, sir. 7 Q: Okay. And what you told the OPP was 8 that you weren't at the base. 9 A: Pardon? I beg your pardon? 10 Q: What you told the OPP when they asked 11 you about the shooting of the helicopter was that you 12 were at your other residence in Point Edward and you 13 weren't at the base at the time. And wasn't that 14 accurate? 15 A: No, sir. 16 Q: If this could be the next exhibit 17 please? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-32. 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: Here you go. Thank 23 you. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-32: Interview of Clifford George
1171 by OPP, dated August 26th, 2 1993. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 5 Q: Now I expect in fairness to you, Mr. 6 George, that -- that there's going to be evidence first 7 of all that -- that a bullet was actually extracted from 8 the helicopter and sent for forensic examination. Are -- 9 are you aware of that, sir? 10 A: I don't know nothing about it, sir. 11 Q: You don't know anything about that? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 14 that the search that took place at the camp did not take 15 place on the date of the helicopter shooting, but on the 16 following day. Am I right? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: So, there was a period of time 21 between when the shooting was alleged to have occurred 22 and the time that the OPP arrived at the camp to conduct 23 the search; am I right? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: Right. And I'm going to suggest to
1181 you as well that -- that the police presented a warrant 2 to Carl George to demonstrate that permission had been 3 obtained from the Court to conduct that search. Were you 4 aware of that, sir? 5 A: Partly, yes. 6 Q: Partly? All right. And you 7 indicated that a -- that a search was conducted of the 8 premises and -- 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: -- and you were there during that. 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: I -- I agree with you as to that. 13 And were you aware that -- that the search did not find 14 the weapon involved in the shooting but did find three 15 (3) boxes of military ordinance trip wire in one green 16 tent, a 270 calibre shell in a trailer, a pellet gun, 17 three (3) spent shells in another trailer, a live round 18 possibly a 222 in another trailer labelled "Hampster", 19 two (2) spent shells found in the front seat of a blue 20 Chevrolet, a flare launch and a 22 calibre shell in a gym 21 bag hanging on a pole outside of another trailer. 22 Were you aware of any of that? 23 A: No, sir. The OPP told me, because I 24 was pretty near the last building to be searched, that he 25 never found nothing.
1191 Q: Okay. Well I guess we'll have to 2 hear some evidence about that. 3 A: Yes, sir. Anytime. 4 Q: Okay, good. Now, what I'm interested 5 in and -- and I think in fairness, I'd -- I'd like to ask 6 you for -- for your comments about this. You -- you have 7 reflected, when you testified the other day, that Mr. 8 Hewitt went to London and came back with a story that -- 9 that wasn't a bullet wound but it was something that you 10 might see from a pickaxe. 11 Do you remember giving that testimony? 12 A: Yes, sir, that's the way he explained 13 it to me -- 14 Q: That's what he explained to you? 15 A: -- and it -- it was three (3) prong 16 hole -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- and he thought it was, at that 19 time, so -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- he went there right the next 22 morning, himself. 23 Q: All right. Now, if I can refer you to 24 an article from the Chatham Daily News dated August 25 of 25 1993, and it's headed up, "Shooting of Military Copter
1201 Remains Mystery". And this appears to be authored by the 2 Canadian Press. 3 And I'm just going to read part of it for 4 you, if I could. Before I do, I take it you'd agree with 5 me that if someone within the camp was shooting and 6 hitting a helicopter, that would disturb you? 7 A: If I would of seen it when I there but 8 I didn't see somebody -- somebody shooting at it, I -- 9 which I never -- they were all ducking for their own 10 lives. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: From the harassment that they were 13 getting. 14 Q: Okay. And -- by the way, I don't 15 represent the military or the Federal Government so the 16 extent to which these helicopter flights should or 17 shouldn't have taken place may have to be taken up with 18 somebody else but what I'm just asking you is, that if it 19 had come to your attention that -- that someone within 20 the camp was shooting with live ammunition at a 21 helicopter over -- coming overhead, I take it that's 22 something that you would very strongly disapprove of. 23 A: Not only that, but somebody would have 24 told me because everybody -- we told each other 25 everything that -- that was happening mostly in -- in the
1211 camp. 2 Q: All right. Well, I'm going to come 3 back to that -- 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: -- because that's -- 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: -- that's an interesting answer. 8 Thank you. In the article in the Chatham Daily News of 9 August 25, 1993, it says this: 10 "As police searched for clues to the 11 shooting of a military helicopter over 12 this army base, a spokesman for Indians 13 occupying part of the camp said they 14 wanted a nonviolent end to their land 15 dispute. 16 Band elder, Clifford George, said 17 Tuesday he doesn't know who shone a 18 spotlight at the helicopter which was 19 carrying a crew of five (5), then fired 20 a single shot at it Monday night. 21 Quote, "I would like to know myself," 22 close quote, said George as police 23 searched natives living in this 24 training base on Lake Huron twenty-five 25 (25) kilometres northwest of Sarnia.
1221 He said someone may have, quote 2 "snapped", closed quote under the 3 strain and frustration of repeated low- 4 level flights over the natives' camp. 5 Quote, "people can only stand so much," 6 close quote, said George, part of the 7 Stony Point First Nation. Quote, "We 8 should have charged the heads of the 9 military with harassment," close quote. 10 And you did say, at the end of the article 11 -- or attributed to you at the end of the article was: 12 "George said that low-flying 13 helicopters have been scaring children, 14 old people and even animals. There are 15 children that run screaming, they're 16 going to kill us, they're going to kill 17 us, he said. Residents sometimes 18 turned spotlights onto aircraft to 19 record their serial numbers, he said. 20 George said he believes the night 21 flights are prompted by suspicions 22 amongst the military that the band has 23 a secret weapons arsenal but he said 24 they have no weapons. Quote, "We want 25 to settle this in a nonviolent way,"
1231 close quote, said George. Quote, "If 2 it comes to a standoff, I will have to 3 take these people off the land. I'm 4 responsible for the safety of children 5 here," close quote. 6 Now, did you say those things? 7 A: A big part of that is -- is their -- 8 their own making, sir. I -- I never experience anything 9 that you're saying there except for a very few things. 10 Q: Okay. So, what I want to be clear on, 11 is that when -- when you're quoted in the Chatham Daily 12 News as saying that you'd like to know yourself who shot 13 -- someone may have snapped under the strain, people can 14 only stand so much; you said none of that. 15 A: I probably said it to somebody because 16 it's true. If -- I said if, don't forget -- I said if, 17 there was shooting done from our side, someone in our -- 18 in our camp could have snapped because we were under high 19 pressure at that time from helicopter even -- even -- in 20 my own -- my own -- he was just hovering about a high as 21 the ceiling here looking at me. 22 I can see all the four (4) people that 23 were in there taking -- taking my pictures. 24 Q: All right. So the simple answer is 25 that you may have indicated to the media that if this
1241 helicopter was shot it was -- 2 A: I was just going -- 3 Q: -- the product of frustration? 4 A: -- going my -- my -- my experience in 5 the military, sir. 6 Q: Okay. Now -- 7 A: I've seen many snap in high pressure 8 -- pressure. 9 Q: And this may have been one (1) of 10 those instances? 11 A: It could have been but it never 12 happened as far as I know. 13 Q: As far as you know. Well -- 14 A: I just said if to that person I was 15 talking to. 16 Q: I understand. If that article could 17 be the next exhibit please. 18 THE REGISTRAR: Counsel, before I mark 19 this as an exhibit can I have a copy of your P-31. I 20 have not received a copy of that yet. 21 MR. MARK SANDLER: My pleasure. 22 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 23 MR. MARK SANDLER: And do you have P-32. 24 THE REGISTRAR: I have that, thank you, 25 sir.
1251 MR. MARK SANDLER: Okay. 2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P-33, Your 3 Honour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-33. 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: Thirty-two (32) 6 wouldn't it? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thirty-three 8 (33). 9 MR. MARK SANDLER: Thirty-three (33)? 10 THE REGISTRAR: Thirty-three (33). 11 MR. MARK SANDLER: Okay. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-33: Article dated August 23rd, 14 1997, entitled "Shooting of 15 Military Remains a Mystery." 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 18 Q: Were you aware of this much, Mr. 19 George, that when the helicopter, whether on this 20 occasion or another occasion came over the camp that some 21 high illumination lights were shone on it from people 22 within the camp? 23 A: I thought -- I thought it was a light 24 from -- from the helicopter pointed down at us a lot of 25 times.
1261 Q: So were you unaware of the fact that 2 when the helicopter came over there were high 3 illumination lamps within the camp that were used to 4 illuminate the helicopter? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. Now, just getting to the heart 7 of all of this, if I may, and it's the last area that I'm 8 going to ask you about in connection with the helicopter. 9 I expect that there will be some evidence 10 about -- about the investigation that was conducted into 11 this shooting and I expect the Commissioner will -- will 12 see the bullet that was extracted from the helicopter and 13 the forensic report that dealt with -- with that bullet 14 and -- and so on. 15 But I want to put this to you because I'm 16 interested in your response. And it's not dissimilar 17 from some of the things that I've asked you about earlier 18 in the day. I expect that the evidence will reveal that 19 the OPP, when conducting the investigation into the 20 shooting of the helicopter, interviewed a number of First 21 Nations people; okay? 22 And I expect that what the evidence will 23 show is that privately, various individuals within the 24 First Nations community admitted that the helicopter had 25 been shot and provided information as to who had shot it
1271 but were not prepared to go public for fear of the 2 repercussions in their own community? 3 A: They're hiding. Tell them to come 4 out here and talk to us in front of us. There's a whole 5 bunch of people here that was standing there and 6 wondering about what next is going to happen, sir. 7 And somebody from some other reserve has 8 got to be just tyring to make a name for himself. 9 Q: I see, sir. 10 A: That I know of, sir. 11 Q: Well, one (1) of the things that's 12 available in the -- in the public documentation or the 13 documentation that has been disclosed is a -- is a report 14 from one (1) of the detective sergeants that was involved 15 in -- in this investigation. 16 And one (1) of the things that he reflects 17 here is that prior to the search that was conducted of 18 the -- of the camp site, Chief George, Karl George, was 19 briefed as to the police intention to search all First 20 Nation encampments on the base. The Chief said he would 21 alert his people and did not expect the Police to be 22 given any trouble. 23 The Chief said he could not guarantee 100 24 percent cooperation of his people but would make the 25 Police position clear. Detective Sergeant Wright asked
1281 the Chief if he would consider turning the person 2 responsible over to the police in order to avoid the 3 massive search that was about to take place and the Chief 4 replied that he couldn't because they'd hang me -- not an 5 exact quote -- and the time was approximately 10:30 in 6 the morning when that meeting took place before the 7 search. 8 Now -- now Karl George is not an outside 9 agitator of any sort, is he? 10 A: No, he isn't. That's just -- just -- 11 his -- his idea of sometime because for -- for one (1) 12 thing, the OPP search was very orderly. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: We -- we never even -- we even 15 interfered with them on their search through all our 16 papers, which is in one (1) of the buildings that -- that 17 we own. There was a church building where we held our 18 meetings. 19 Q: But what I'm asking you is this, isn't 20 it true, sir -- I mean in all candour -- that one (1) of 21 the concerns within the First Nations community -- and 22 this concern is evident from '93 to '98 -- is that it's a 23 problem for people within that community to publicly talk 24 about criminality that is going on -- 25 A: Who was this person, sir?
1291 Q: -- within that community. 2 A: Who was this person? 3 Q: Well, unfortunately, I can't give 4 evidence here. All right? I expect there'll be evidence 5 at -- 6 A: Well, bring it along and we'll deal 7 with that when -- when he's -- when he's got nerve enough 8 to come and talk to these people here. 9 Q: All right, but right now, I just have 10 to ask you, is that not a concern that was occurring 11 within the community -- 12 A: It's not a concern -- 13 Q: It's not a concern. 14 A: It's not even -- not even in my 15 thoughts where -- where other nations were -- were even 16 involved with us. 17 Q: Okay, thank you. I've referred to the 18 report, though I haven't read extensively from it. I'm 19 in Your Honour's hands. I'm happy to file it. I suspect 20 there'll be more evidence dealing with this issue later 21 on. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 23 would be a good idea. 24 MR. MARK SANDLER: I have a copy of that 25 if you'd like.
1301 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is this 2 sixteen (16) -- 3 MR. MARK SANDLER: This is the case 4 history. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I see 6 that it's sixteen (16) pages. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-34, Your Honour. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-34: Case history dated August 27, 1993 11 re: helicopter incident. 12 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Again, Mr. 14 Commissioner, just to be clear that these documents are 15 marked for identification purposes. We will bring -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Other 17 witnesses. 18 MR. DONALD WORME: -- the authors of them 19 and they can be proved at that point. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assumed 21 that. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I think 24 we all do. That's -- 25 MR. MARK SANDLER: We're going to be
1311 hearing from Mark Wright, I know. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MARK SANDLER: 5 Q: Now, you were asked some questions by 6 Mr. Worme about -- about weapons. And I just want to 7 understand this a little bit because I've never hunted in 8 my life, sir, and -- and so my knowledge of hunting is 9 going to be inferior to yours, certainly, and -- and 10 others in the room. 11 You indicated that the only weapons that 12 were at the camp that you knew of during the period that 13 you were occupying the camp were weapons that would have 14 been used for hunting. Did I have that right? 15 A: I -- I indicated that -- that all the 16 time I was there, but maybe later on after I left they -- 17 they might have -- they might have had their own weapons 18 there. But prior to that I know for a fact my -- my own 19 nephew -- they -- they made sure that their weapons were 20 in their homes in Kettle Point, sir. 21 Q: Okay. Well, I want to understand 22 this. First of all, were a number of the Stony Pointers 23 hunters? 24 A: We're all hunters. 25 Q: I understand.
1321 A: For food, sir. 2 Q: I understand that as part of your 3 culture that you hunt, so would you say that all of the 4 people who were occupying Stony Point from, say just '93 5 to '98, were hunters at one (1) point or another? 6 A: Not all of them, sir. A lot of the 7 people were -- were young and I don't think they done any 8 hunting. 9 Q: Okay. So, leaving aside the 10 youngsters in -- in the group, the adult males -- just 11 start there for a moment. All of them would have been 12 involved in -- in hunting at various times during '93 to 13 '98? 14 A: Most of us did, even in Kettle Point. 15 Where all of us elders, we fished and we hunted. 16 Q: And I'm not saying that as a 17 criticism, I understand your point. 18 A: I realize that, sir. I'm just telling 19 you the truth. 20 Q: Okay. And -- can I ask, hunting for 21 what? 22 A: Well, there's several things we hunt 23 for. Rabbits for one (1) thing are food. Even coon are 24 food for us, deer in season because the Pinery Park is 25 open once a year to kill off some of -- some of the
1331 excess deals there. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: So we do hunt. 4 Q: All right. At various points in 5 time, some of the occupiers made their permanent 6 residence at the camp and not at Kettle Point, am I 7 right? 8 A: No, it's wrong. Because when -- when 9 the camp was occupied by the camp, there -- there was 10 none of us there for -- for over fifty (50) years, sir. 11 Q: No, I'm just talking about the period 12 1993 to 1998. At various times I understand that you and 13 -- and Dudley George, you'd said were the only two (2) 14 who were full-time occupiers of the camp during the 15 winter months for a couple of years. Remember you said 16 that? 17 A: Yes, I did. I -- I realize now what 18 you're getting to. Yes, there were times on the weekends 19 where they went home to look after their own homes in 20 Kettle Point. Because that had to be looked after and 21 they -- they took their children home with them and as 22 far as I know that only Dudley and myself were there in 23 our little -- in our little shacks. 24 Q: Well, did that remain the case 25 throughout the period until you left in '98?
1341 A: No, no. Just that latter times. 2 Q: Okay. So there was a period of time 3 where -- where the camp was being occupied by individuals 4 other than you and Dudley on a permanent basis? 5 A: Yes. We all did for -- for an awful 6 long time. 7 Q: Right. And -- and is it your 8 evidence that all of those people, even those who 9 permanently occupied the camp would still take their 10 rifles for hunting and leave them in Kettle Point? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Well, how about Dudley? 13 A: And I'll tell you -- tell you why 14 because the Police at that time were just looking for an 15 excuse to -- to oust us out of there. So we were very 16 careful. People told me themselves, we're not -- we're 17 not going to trust any -- any guns around here. 18 Q: Okay. Well, that's certainly the 19 people who you were close to were saying we're not going 20 to have any guns here, right? Okay. Well I'm just 21 interested. Remember you made reference to Mr. Ewart. 22 This is the bailiff who -- 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: -- described the helicopter? 25 A: Yes, sir.
1351 Q: In a statement that -- that he 2 provided to the Police, he was asked these questions and 3 he gave these answers and I'm just interested in your 4 comments about this because I'm -- I'm sure we'll either 5 -- I'm sure we may hear from him. 6 And he's saying that: 7 "Up to about a week and a half prior to 8 Dudley's death, I probably would say 9 that I had been down there," 10 And he's talking about the camp, 11 "-- on a regular basis, twice, three 12 (3) times a week." 13 And then he's asked, and this is an 14 interview with the special investigation's unit. 15 "Did you ever see any weapons down 16 there with any of the natives?" 17 "Ewart: I did see, yes, a couple of 18 times. They were no more than hunting rifles. 19 I believe -- Glen had a gun, I think it 20 was a twenty-two (22) magnum. Of 21 course, it was nothing more than coon 22 hunting and deer hunting. The only 23 semi-automatic weapon I ever saw there 24 was some old piece that didn't even -- 25 I didn't recognize it and I have quite
1361 a gun collection myself. It was kind 2 of some semi-automatic military weapon. 3 I didn't even know who it belonged to. 4 Kennedy: Was somebody carrying it at 5 the time? 6 Ewart: It was in -- it was in 7 Dudley's trailer. 8 Kennedy: It was in Dudley's trailer? 9 Ewart: It was in Dudley's trailer but 10 however there were seven (7) or eight 11 (8) guys staying in that trailer. 12 Kennedy: And this was about -- what 13 was the time ratio that you saw this? 14 Ewart: This was -- this had to be a 15 year prior. 16 Kennedy: A year prior? Yeah, a year 17 prior. 18 And then he said, I've got to admit to 19 you right on tape right now. Hell, 20 listen I took my gun down to Stony 21 Point and I did some deer hunting too 22 and that was by invitation." 23 So I'm just trying to get this straight in 24 -- in my head, Mr. George. Dudley George was permanently 25 resident at the camp, right?
1371 A: Yes, sir. We gave him that trailer, 2 the council of us. 3 Q: Okay. And -- and he had a gun? 4 A: No. Dudley never owned a gun in his 5 life. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: That I'm aware of. 8 Q: That you're aware of? Well, 9 A: I -- he said, as far as I know, even 10 his brother said he was scared of weapons. 11 Q: "He was scared of weapons"? Well, -- 12 A: Yes, sir. Because he was -- he never 13 lived on a reserve that much. He lived in Town of Forest 14 and other places. 15 Q: So he never hunted; is that what 16 you're saying? 17 A: No, sir. Not that I know of. 18 Q: Not that you know of? Well, do you 19 have any explanation, I'll ask you this, I mean, first of 20 all, Mr. Ewart is very supportive of the Stony Pointers; 21 isn't he? 22 A: I can't be everywhere to see, but 23 they probably had -- they probably had guns there, I 24 don't know for sure. I'm not one to go -- it's none of 25 my business to go around searching house to house to see
1381 if there's any weapons there. 2 Q: So -- so -- 3 A: We just all made -- made -- made a 4 deal when we first come in there, there will be no 5 weapons. 6 Q: But as you've said yourself, very 7 fairly, you're just not in a position to know whether or 8 not all of the people who were occupying that camp 9 followed the same restriction that you followed; right? 10 A: It eased off -- it eased off after 11 the -- after the -- after a while on -- on the OPP -- 12 being scared of the OPP. Even yet today, I am still 13 blamed for having AK's in there coming across the river. 14 That's from my own friends from white man land. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: They still think there's weapons in 17 there. 18 Q: But the bottom line is that here's 19 Mr. Ewart saying that -- that he saw a semi-automatic 20 weapon in Dudley's trailer. You can't help us with that 21 at all? 22 A: I saw the picture of that. It looked 23 like an antique, sir. 24 Q: Pardon me? 25 A: It looked like an antique. I saw the
1391 picture of it. 2 Q: You saw a picture of it? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: All right. Well, I'm asking you 5 based upon your personal knowledge; do you know whether 6 Dudley George had a gun in the trailer? 7 A: No. Dudley George never did. 8 Q: Okay. Now, I'm going to ask you a 9 little bit about that toll collection incident on the 10 public road and then -- and then we'll be done? 11 A: Okay, sir. 12 Q: And you remember this description of 13 the event where -- where you were arrested for -- for the 14 events that surrounded Matheson Road; right? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: I'm going to ask you just a couple of 17 questions about it. A decision was made by the Stony 18 Pointers, including yourself, and again I don't say that 19 critically, that tolls were going to be collected from 20 individuals trying to access Matheson Drive; am I right? 21 A: It wasn't access the drive itself, it 22 was at the lake where they decided if they -- if they 23 wanted to spend the whole day they would -- because we 24 had a fence there and we were allowed to go into all of 25 that -- all of the Stony Point beachfront but nobody else
1401 was allowed. 2 But after we took over we decided -- they 3 decided would it be all right if we let other people in 4 there to enjoy their -- their day. The ones I stopped 5 was from Windsor that I -- that I stopped there at the 6 time. 7 Q: But I'm -- and, again, I'm not 8 arguing the rights or wrongs of the road or the -- or the 9 access or anything like that, I'm just asking you this, 10 the location that this event took place was actually on 11 Matheson Drive? 12 A: On Matheson Drive. 13 Q: Right. And -- and you had discussed 14 with the others the decision to -- to do this thing that 15 you've described; right? 16 A: I knew of everything that was going 17 to happen, sir. 18 Q: Right. And not only you knew of 19 anything that happened, it was part of a strategy that 20 you agreed upon; right? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And the events 23 took place on a Saturday; do you remember that? 24 A: I couldn't tell you what day it was 25 but I know if was a -- yeah, it'll -- it'd have to be a
1411 weekend. 2 Q: Have to be a weekend? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: No point in manning the road during 5 the weekday. Not many people would be coming down it? 6 A: Yes, sir. You're right, sr. 7 Q: And it was recognized that -- that 8 the Matheson Drive was regarded by the township as its 9 road but you wanted to peacefully make a point; right? 10 A: Yes, we did because -- because we 11 fear that that the park had no business selling -- 12 selling the Bosanquet Township land that belonged to the 13 government and to -- and to the Ontario Government. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: We couldn't see the point there where 16 they could sell for the price of one dollar ($1) that 17 roadway. I got documents that says that in archives. 18 Q: I understand. And as you said to 19 Commissioner Linden last day, you saw -- you only saw 20 young people being arrested so I said, let us old people 21 get in there. 22 A: I did, sir. 23 Q: Right? And although you never 24 actually had money in your hand, I mean -- 25 A: I never even asked for money, sir.
1421 Q: I understand. 2 A: I was -- I was just about to start -- 3 Q: All right. 4 A: -- telling him at -- at the lake down 5 there they would be given a choice for -- for a few 6 dollars if they want to spend the whole day down the 7 beach later on. 8 Q: Okay. And you stopped a car but you 9 never got to collect any money? 10 A: No. I never got -- I -- I just got -- 11 got to say hello and then -- then the police already had 12 -- had me by the arms. 13 Q: All right. And in fairness, you were 14 aware, were you not, that John Carson of the OPP had 15 advised Maynard George the night before and on that same 16 date that the police would have to effect an arrest if 17 the public road was obstructed in that way? 18 Was that not discussed with you? 19 A: Well, I know. 20 Q: All right. And -- and I'm going to 21 suggest that even though the arrest might not be regarded 22 as the most appropriate thing from your perspective, the 23 police who effected your arrest on the scene and the 24 other two (2) were polite, were they not? 25 A: Yes, they were but they were on --
1431 they were on -- they were on a -- on a registered road. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: This -- this was just a roadway, sir. 4 Q: I understand the debate. I think 5 you've answered my question. Thank you. 6 Those are all the questions I have of this 7 gentleman. Thank you very much for your assistance, sir. 8 A: Thank you, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 10 Mr. Sandler. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: I wonder if this might 12 be an appropriate time to break, Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are -- are 14 you getting tired? 15 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. I think 17 the rest of us are. I think this would be a good time to 18 have a break. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Order. All rise, please. 20 This inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 3:08 p.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 3:30 p.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
1441 resumed. Please be seated. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 afternoon, Mr. Roland. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Good afternoon, Mr. 5 Commissioner. 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 8 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. My name 9 is Ian Roland. I'm going to be asking you some 10 questions. I represent the Ontario Provincial Police 11 Association -- 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: -- which is the bargaining agent for 14 the police officers who are not senior -- senior 15 officers. 16 Let me ask you first about the 17 organization of the group that occupied the base in 1993 18 and as I understand your evidence that you gave on 19 September 10, there was a meeting in early 1990 at the 20 army barracks -- you told us about that. 21 A: Yes, sir, there was. 22 Q: And you then said eventually all the 23 Stony Point people and a number joined in and you legally 24 occupied it -- that is, the camp -- because we sent a 25 letter to the camp commander; remember saying that?
1451 A: Yes, sir, I remember. 2 Q: Okay. And I take it that letter was 3 sent at the time of the occupation which we know was May 4 6, 1993. 5 A: It was -- it was a short time later or 6 somewhere about that -- 7 Q: Short time later. Okay, fair enough. 8 A: -- that we -- we sent the -- the OC of 9 -- of the camp a letter and handed it to him by -- by 10 hand and he -- he complied. 11 Q: What you said, I think is that, we 12 didn't let the camp commander know at the time that you 13 pushed down the fence and occupied part of the base but 14 you eventually sent him a letter that you were occupying. 15 A: Yes, sir, that's right. 16 Q: And you said, we organized, we elected 17 a chief and we elected councillors and you happened to be 18 one (1) of the councillors at the time. 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And that there were about fifty (50) 21 or sixty (60) people at the time, that is May 6, 1993, 22 who occupied part of the base. 23 A: We officially opened it -- originally 24 -- originally we bent the fence and we -- and we -- we 25 walked over and -- and allowed our -- our ladies and --
1461 and kids to enter. 2 And then we made it official about a week 3 later or a few days later and -- and we come into the -- 4 into the east gate which we cut one link of wire of chain 5 to -- to get access to it and that's the way we walked in 6 officially. 7 Q: Okay. Now, you told us on September 8 10th, that is a week a bit ago, that there were about 9 fifty (50) or sixty (60) people who -- who did this, who 10 went in on May 6th, 1993 and occupied part of the base 11 going in the east gate. 12 Did that same number of people then camp, 13 set up camp and stay at the location you occupied 14 thereafter for the rest of the summer? 15 A: Yes, sir. From -- from camp base all 16 along that road down there we occupied. 17 Q: And did those people occupy -- fifty 18 (50) or sixty (60) people occupy that part of the base 19 for the rest of the summer of 1993? 20 A: Mostly, yes, sir. 21 Q: All right. And you said as well that 22 you brought in some trailers. But before I get to those, 23 let me show you some documents that we've provided to the 24 parties and you'll see, Mr. George, in front of you, 25 there is a black binder and if you could just look at
1471 that binder I've provided to you for ease of reference as 2 a witness copy. And if you would turn please to Tab 22. 3 A: Can I get somebody to turn these 4 pages for me, sir? My -- my grandson can come here and 5 open -- 6 Q: I'd -- I'd do it but I'm sort of 7 blocked in here. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 9 all right. Katherine can do it. Katherine Hensel, one 10 of the associate commission counsel can help the witness. 11 MS. CATHERINE HENSELL: Twenty-two (22)? 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: I think it's Tab -- yes, 13 22. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 16 Q: And if you go if you could, to the 17 second to last page in Tab 22. What you'll find there is 18 a document that is on the letterhead of Stony Point First 19 Nation Council, it's called Stony Point First Nation 20 Council Resolution and it's dated May 5th, 1993. 21 You see that document? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And that document is signed by you; 24 it appears at the bottom right-hand corner. 25 Is that your signature?
1481 A: Yes, sir. That's my signature, sir. 2 Q: And did you sign it as councillor? 3 It appears the word underneath your signature, 4 councillor? 5 A: Yes, sir. I was -- I was elected 6 councillor at that time, sir. 7 Q: And let's just look at the names that 8 are on there as well. There appears to be a place for 9 the signature of a chief but there is no signature for a 10 chief. You'll see that's just above the names, there's a 11 line that says "Chief". It's quite faint. 12 A: The Chief is in the middle one on the 13 second part -- Carl -- Carl George. 14 Q: Yeah. But Carl George is -- was the 15 Chief, right? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: Okay. And he signed underneath then 18 where it says "Chief Carl George"? 19 A: Yes, sir. It's written right here. 20 Q: And there's the signature of Janet 21 Cloud? 22 A: Janet Cloud, yes. 23 Q: And Gordon Cloud? 24 A: Gordon Cloud, yes. 25 Q: And is that Marlene Cloud?
1491 A: Marlene Cloud, yes. 2 Q: And who's the other signature? Is 3 that -- is that Maynard George? 4 A: I cannot make out who it is, sir. I 5 -- I forget. 6 Q: Just above your signature? 7 A: I -- I know that, sir. 8 Q: It looks like Maynard T. George. 9 Would 10 -- would he be -- was he a councillor at the time? 11 A: He was for a time as I -- as I 12 remember. 13 Q: Okay. Now could you tell us how this 14 organization or this group or band called Stony Point 15 First Nation Council, how did that come into being? 16 A: It took a few months to organize 17 because they come to visit me, I was living in -- in 18 Sarnia at the time or Point Edward, I should say. 19 And they -- they start visiting me 20 periodically to talk about this. That was after the 21 first original deal when -- when they -- when they 22 allowed us to go in there and have a meeting on the 23 weekend. 24 Q: That was in 1990? 25 A: Pardon.
1501 Q: That was -- 2 A: Prior -- prior to 1993, sir. 3 Q: Yes. Well, you told us about going 4 into the army barracks early 1990, you said? 5 A: It could be somewhere around there. 6 Q: So three (3) years earlier? 7 A: It could be, sir. 8 Q: All right. Was there any other 9 meeting at the army barracks apart from the one in 1990? 10 A: No, that was the only one. That give 11 us the idea that they -- they were reasonable and that -- 12 that -- we would quite well -- go in there without 13 weapons, without anything just walk in and -- and let 14 them know that we are taking over our reservation which 15 they've been holding for fifty (50) some odd years or 16 sixty (60) whatever it was at that time, sir. 17 Q: Okay. So, Mr. George, then as I 18 understand it from 1990 -- early '90 to May '93 are you 19 telling us you had some meetings in that three (3) year 20 period? 21 A: Yeah, periodically. Periodically 22 they'd come over to my place in -- in Sarnia and then 23 from there we -- we started gathering together in other 24 places and discussed what's the best way to do this. 25 Q: Right.
1511 A: Because -- because it's been dormant 2 and nobody is doing anything about it and -- and we were 3 getting sick and tired of -- of what's -- with nothing 4 happening. 5 Q: And who was the leader of this group 6 that was forming to discuss this? 7 A: There was no leader -- there was no 8 leader at the time. We were all just -- we were all just 9 people discussing what we could and what we couldn't do. 10 Q: All right. And, Mr. George, were 11 there more people than the six (6) that are signatories 12 of this resolution? 13 A: At times, yes, sir. 14 Q: Yes. Were these six (6) signatories, 15 which included you, the persons that were most actively 16 involved in organizing Stony Point First Nation Council? 17 A: Not -- not with me. But they were -- 18 they were active in other things. There's only two (2) - 19 - two (2) names here that come to me all the time in my 20 house in -- in Sarnia. 21 Q: All right. Now, at some stage, was 22 there an election? 23 A: After we occupied we -- we had a 24 little election from the time -- time we moved in. We -- 25 we decided that we need a chief and council, sir.
1521 Q: Right. Well, then -- but this 2 resolution you'll see is dated May 5th, 1993; it's the 3 day before the occupation. How is it then you became or 4 were appointed a councillor? If there hadn't been an 5 election how was it that you were a councillor of this 6 group? 7 You said there was an election after you 8 moved in but this resolution's before you moved in, 9 before the occupation? It's -- it's dated the day 10 before. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I don't quite get this. Although I 15 signed this. 16 Q: It appears that somehow you were 17 appointed councillor, chief -- or Karl George was 18 appointed chief and at least four (4) other people were 19 appointed councillors but it wasn't by election? 20 A: Well -- well, we just got together in 21 a group and do you want to become -- do you want to 22 become and -- and that's how it was. 23 Q: You self-appointed then -- 24 A: Self appointed. 25 Q: -- the six (6) of you self-appointed,
1531 did you? 2 A: Yes, sir. Self-appointed at the 3 first -- first time. 4 Q: All right. Fair enough. And did you 5 have, as a group, legal advice in doing this? 6 A: No. We were -- 7 Q: Did you have any -- sorry? 8 A: We were -- we were in control of 9 everything ourselves. 10 Q: And did you have any legal assistance 11 in preparing this resolution? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: Did you do it or can you tell us who 14 did it? 15 A: Maynard T. George, sir. 16 Q: "Maynard T.", okay. And the 17 resolution has a number of whereas's and it says: 18 "Subsequently be it known thereafter 19 that we are repossessing our homelands 20 called Aazhoodena and the territory of 21 our people witnesses in various maps at 22 the tax court." 23 Right? Do you remember reading that when 24 you signed this? 25 A: Yes, sir. Yes.
1541 Q: Now, it has as well -- you'll see at 2 the top of it a file number -- you'll see in the top 3 right-hand corner 43-0044VMC. Can you help us -- what 4 that file number refers to? 5 A: I couldn't imply what it means, sir, 6 but -- but I know our -- our -- our two (2) land based 7 numbers are -- are there, the forty-three (43) is -- is 8 Stony Point and forty-four (44) represents Kettle Point. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: As far as I know, sir. 11 Q: Now, before you and the other five (5) 12 individuals who signed this resolution did so, did you 13 consult with the chief -- chief or the council members of 14 the Kettle and Stony Point band? 15 A: No, sir, we did not. We -- we didn't 16 -- we didn't trust them all that much because -- for 17 several reasons. He wasn't doing nothing about it since 18 -- since the previous chief. The previous chief was 19 Shawkence and I think you'll find in documents that he 20 was the last one to -- to make a big effort to regain our 21 -- our lands. 22 Q: Mmm hmm. All right. At the top of 23 the document you'll see there's an address -- 6 Indian 24 Lane, RR 2, Forest. Can you tell us what address - whose 25 address that is -- 6 Indian Lane?
1551 A: I don't -- I don't recall 6 Indian 2 Lane but I -- I think it's -- it's somewhere along our -- 3 our main road in Kettle Point. 4 Q: But you don't know what that address 5 is? That's the address on the document for this council 6 and -- but you don't know what that address is? 7 A: That is probably -- probably where I 8 first moved into. That is just -- it is probably -- I 9 moved to another residence since then. When I first 10 moved back to Kettle Point I think that the one -- that 11 was the one I moved to. 12 Q: What was the purpose of this 13 resolution, Mr. George? 14 A: What resolution, sir? 15 Q: The one that I've just been -- we've 16 just been looking at. 17 A: The purpose was to -- to occupy our 18 lands peacefully, eventually -- eventually to see if we 19 can -- we can get it legally back into our -- back into 20 our own hands as Stony Pointers. 21 Q: All right. And what did you 22 understand was to be done with this resolution? Was it 23 to be sent to somebody or what was to be done with it? 24 A: We haven't even go to that point but 25 we -- but we did -- we did have -- have long-term deals.
1561 Several times we talked about our long-term of how -- how 2 we'll deal with this. We hadn't come to a complete 3 conclusion at that time. 4 Q: All right. Can we have that marked as 5 the next exhibit, Commissioner? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-35, Your Honour. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-35. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-35: Resolution 43-0044VMC. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 12 Q: If you could turn to Tab 24, for 13 Counsel this is document 200643. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 18 Q: You see that? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Have you had a chance to read it? 21 And that you'll see is a letter dated May 6th, '93, it's 22 sent to the OPP and it is signed by Carl George as the 23 chief and one of the councillors we've identified, 24 Maynard T. George? 25 A: Yes, sir.
1571 Q: And I take it you were familiar at 2 the time with this document? 3 A: I know they were making several 4 documents as I know. 5 Q: Yes. Do you recall this document 6 from the time? 7 A: Pardon? 8 Q: Do you recall seeing this document 9 back in May '93? 10 A: I -- I recall them telling me about 11 it, sir. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: That's all I can tell you. 14 Q: And this document says that the -- 15 the -- it's addressed to the OPP, it's to Whom It May 16 Concern. And we see at the very bottom it was also sent 17 to the media. See the c.c. at the very bottom of the 18 letter? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Yes. And what it says is that at a 21 duly convened council meeting of this new group you've 22 just told us about, 23 "The -- the decision had been made, --" 24 And this is announcing the decision, that 25 "-- that day May the 6th at
1581 approximately 8:30 a.m." 2 I'm reading from the bottom, 3 "-- under the attached law, we are 4 going in and occupying our traditional 5 homes in the name of our peoples 6 identity, attached is a copy of notice 7 presently being distributed amongst our 8 elderly and youth. 9 Do you recall that? 10 A: Yes, sir, I do. 11 Q: Okay. And if you turn over two (2) 12 pages, you'll see another May 6th To Whom It May Concern. 13 A: I do, sir. 14 Q: Is this the letter that was sent to 15 our elderly and youth? Is this the notice? 16 A: I -- I think this was one (1) that 17 was sent to the Chief Tom Bressette, as far as I know, 18 one (1) of them. 19 Q: Yes. And various MP's. Is that 20 Members of Parliament? 21 A: I think so, sir. 22 Q: Okay. Now was there some other 23 document that was -- that you know of that was sent to 24 the -- the elderly and youth? 25 A: Of who? Of the Stony Pointers?
1591 Q: Yes. 2 A: No. By that time we were most -- 3 mostly together and -- and we just -- we mostly done this 4 verbally. 5 Q: All right. All right. Let's just 6 look at this second document dated May 6, '93, To Whom It 7 May Concern signed by Chief Carl George and by councillor 8 Maynard Travis George. 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And you'll see in item 8, it says: 11 "We are video recording our actions and 12 taking these precautions to ensure 13 accurate attempts are made to all 14 concerned and for the safety of all 15 parties." 16 Was that done? 17 A: I couldn't tell you, sir. Because at 18 that time I -- I didn't see any video tapes in our 19 possession at all. So it was probably something that we 20 had decided we'd have to do to make everything legal. I 21 don't think it was done. 22 Q: I see. So you -- although this was 23 put in a letter of May the 6th, a To Whom It May Concern 24 document, you don't recall a video tape, is that what 25 you're telling us?
1601 A: I don't at this time, sir. 2 Q: All right. And so there may be one, 3 you don't recall? 4 A: There -- there could be. 5 Q: All right. And then under 9, it 6 says: 7 "We are not hindering the elected 8 Kettle Point council or people from 9 joining us but they do not represent 10 us, --" 11 And that's underlined, 12 "-- in any way, shape or form." 13 A: That's right, sir. 14 Q: And so I take it what you and your 15 group wanted to do is to distinguish yourself clearly 16 from the elected Kettle Point Council? 17 A: Yes, sir. There were several reasons 18 why. 19 Q: Yes. You didn't want to be 20 associated with them? 21 A: We just wanted to get back our own -- 22 our own status as Stony Point people. 23 Q: All right. And do you know, these 24 other documents that are part of this document 25 production, there are a number of other documents that
1611 are -- are attached that are there at the tab, Tab 24, do 2 you know whether or not those were included with one or 3 other of the May 6, '93 letters, to whom it may concern? 4 Either the one to the Forest OPP or the 5 one that was sent out to, among others, copied to Chief 6 Bressette; do you know whether those other documents were 7 attached or not? 8 A: They probably were, sir. Not to my 9 knowledge. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: But I did hear that they did. 12 Q: All right. Could we mark that as the 13 next exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-36, Your Honour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-36: Document dated May 6, '93, To 18 Whom It May Concern signed by 19 Chief Carl George and by 20 Councillor Maynard Travis 21 George. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: Let me ask you, Mr. George, if you'd 25 turn back to Tab 22 and you'll see there in the third
1621 page in another resolution by the Stony Point First 2 Nation Council. It's dated May 17, 1993? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And at the bottom right-hand corner 5 it appears to be your signature? 6 A: Yes, sir. It is. 7 Q: And I note that there appear to be 8 some six (6) signatures on this document? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And it doesn't appear to be signed by 11 a Maynard T. George but is signed by Rosalie Manning; do 12 you see that? 13 A: Yes, I see it, sir. 14 Q: Yes. So I take it she was a 15 councillor? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: Had she taken the place of Maynard T. 18 George or was he just not present to sign this? 19 A: I think she was -- she was elected by 20 us because when we first initiated our council we said 21 we'd only take power every -- just for short periods so 22 we all get a chance to have input on -- on what we 23 thought was right. 24 And that's -- that's one (1) of the 25 reasons why -- why --
1631 Q: And so she was elected was she? 2 A: Well, -- well, by us, the Council. 3 Q: I see. Had you, by May 17th, had a 4 meeting of the occupiers to conduct your election? 5 A: Well, we usually met someone in my 6 house or their house or somewhere. We just had done it 7 mostly -- mostly we met at our -- at our church, we call 8 it church, we use that as an office also, sir. 9 Q: So, so you say that Rose Manning was 10 elected by the councillors; was she? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: All right. And this resolution, it 13 would appear, appoints Mr. J.S. Ewart to act on your 14 behalf; that's the purpose of the resolution is it not? 15 A: Yes we did. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: He was -- he was the bailiff for the 18 County and -- and he was doing -- doing us a lot of -- a 19 lot of help -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- at that time. 22 Q: All right. And what sort of work did 23 you want Mr. Ewart to do on behalf of the Stony Point 24 First Nation Council? 25 A: Mostly -- mostly to talk to -- to
1641 governments, to write letters for us and so -- because 2 his wife was also a big help to us. 3 Q: Write letters to whom? 4 A: To -- to probably wherever -- wherever 5 needed at that time. A lot of times it was the 6 Government and -- and so on. 7 Q: All right. And was he paid by the 8 Council? 9 A: No, sir, he done it freely, sir. 10 Q: All right. Then if you go to the -- 11 the second page of that tab, you'll see a To Whom It May 12 Concern notice or letter dated May 18, 1993. 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And that's signed by Carl George and 15 by Mr. Ewart. 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: Yet, it seems to be directed to all 18 individuals which I assume would include the military, 19 who were situated on the property of the camp; is that 20 right? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And what the notice indicates, is it 23 not, that they are to not resist or willingly obstruct 24 the legal seizure and repossession of the lands herein 25 named? I just read from it; which I take it means, does
1651 it Mr. George, that this was a notice to all, including 2 the military, that they weren't to disturb you in your 3 occupation of the land? 4 A: I think that was the idea, sir. 5 Q: Sorry? 6 A: I think that was the idea. 7 Q: That was the idea. 8 A: That we drawed up. 9 Q: And is this the notice that you told 10 us earlier was sent to the camp commander after you'd 11 occupied? 12 A: Yes, sir. We -- we -- we hand 13 delivered it. 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 17 Q: Now, Mr. George, if you turn to Tab 18 23, you'll see the next notice in time dated June 9, 1993 19 and it's signed by Carl George. It's to the Department 20 of National Defence. 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And it appears to be service upon the 23 Department of National Defence of a notice under the 24 Trespass to Property Act. 25 A: That -- that was delivered to the camp
1661 commander. He come out to the gate, we have several 2 people there -- even had that legion from -- from Muncey 3 come down to -- to us there so there's quite -- quite a 4 few of us in front of the -- in front of the main gate 5 and we asked him to -- to come out to our meeting and he 6 did and he accepted. 7 Q: This was about a month after you'd 8 occupied part of the camp. 9 A: Yes, it -- it took about that long to 10 -- to -- to organize as best we could at that time 11 without -- 12 Q: And I take it, was the point of this 13 that the -- that the military was to leave the entire 14 camp or some portion of the camp? 15 A: At that -- at the time I think -- I 16 think they just wanted us to -- they wanted to -- to have 17 a portion of the camp that they tried to deal with us on 18 that. 19 Q: But this is a notice to the military 20 that they're trespassing -- 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: -- and was it notice trespassing to 23 some portion of the camp or all of the camp? 24 A: All of the camp, sir. 25 Q: All of the camp, was it?
1671 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Okay. And was it Mr. Ewart that was 3 helping you with these -- these documents? 4 A: Mostly. Because he was down most of 5 the time. He wasn't there all the time because he had 6 other work to do and what most every chance he got he -- 7 like his statement was that he -- he'd come down at least 8 twice or three (3) times a week. And we -- and we also 9 went to his place. He lived -- he lived up near Grand 10 Bend at the time. So, we were free to go to his place. 11 Q: Okay. And did the -- I take it the 12 military didn't honour the notice and remove itself as a 13 result of being served with this notice? 14 A: Not at that -- that time, sir. 15 Q: If you turn to Tab 20. And you'll 16 see this is a document dated November -- it looks -- it 17 appears to be 28, 1995 and it -- it says Elders and 18 something. I'm not sure what -- do you know what that 19 top line is? Resolution -- Elders and residents 20 resolution. Do you remember this document? 21 A: No, I don't, sir. 22 Q: Is a document that appears to be 23 signed by the Elders and Residents Resolution. The 24 Elders and principal men and women to discuss the status 25 of their disputed claim and it's signed -- help me with
1681 the signatures. It's Dan Cloud, is that -- at the bottom 2 on the left? Carl Bressette? R. Pearl George? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Rosalie Manning? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Ron Elijah? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And Brenda George? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And were these all Elders at the 11 time? 12 A: Pardon? 13 Q: Were these all Elders? 14 A: No. 15 Q: These are not Elder? 16 A: Pearl George is an Elder and so is 17 Rosalie Manning. 18 Q: Right. And are the rest residents? 19 Were they then -- 20 A: They're -- they're much -- much 21 younger. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: But they're all family. 24 Q: Sorry, sorry. I'm rushing you a bit. 25 Sorry, the others are much younger?
1691 A: Yes, quite a lot younger. 2 Q: And are the others who are a lot 3 younger, were they -- were they resident? 4 A: Children, they were residents, yes 5 sir. 6 Q: As occupiers? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: All right. This was not -- this does 9 not appear to be a resolution by the Stony Point First 10 Nation Council? 11 A: No -- no, not it wasn't. 12 Q: This seems to be a res -- a 13 resolution by six (6) people, some of them who signed the 14 earlier resolutions for the Stony Point First Nations. 15 Certainly we see Rosalie Manning's name again. What was 16 going -- 17 A: Yes. I -- the problem by that time, 18 she -- she was not a councillor. 19 Q: I see. This was only about five (5) 20 months, like five (5) or six (6) months later? 21 A: Some -- some of the people you said 22 there they were the sanctioned among us and they were -- 23 I think they were trying to voice their opinion. 24 Q: So, this was a -- this was, I take 25 it, you say, a group that was in dissent from the others
1701 that were occupiers? 2 A: There was -- there was little 3 problems, I understand -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- that they weren't happy with the 6 way things were going. 7 Q: And what were they not happy about? 8 A: Mostly the way things were -- things 9 were running and mostly things -- things would happen 10 because we'd -- we went through an awful lot. We -- 11 changes also. 12 Q: But give us some particulars, if you 13 could, Mr. George? 14 A: Well, we also -- we also all -- we 15 walked to Ottawa, as a matter of fact, and -- and all 16 these people here was with us. There was quite a group 17 of us that walked all the way to Ottawa for nothing. 18 The Prime Minister at that time wouldn't 19 see us although she was there. 20 Q: So, then what we have, I take it, is 21 you say by November of '95 there's some internal 22 dissension within the occupier group? 23 A: Yes, sir. There was -- there was -- 24 there was a bit of it. 25 Q: All right.
1711 A: Not to the extent that -- that we're 2 going to -- just leave everything and -- and we were 3 still occupiers. 4 Q: All right. And then let me take you 5 to one last document in this series of documents. It's 6 at Tab 21. Now, see this is dated April 9, 1996. This 7 is after the shooting and it's a letter to Mr. Harris -- 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: -- and it announces the intent to 10 file a land claim. Did you see this letter? Are you 11 familiar with this? 12 A: No, sir, none of us were at that time 13 that was -- that was the doings of Chief Tom Bressette. 14 Q: So, this is -- this is sent by the 15 Kettle and Stony Point Council, you weren't a member of 16 the Kettle and Stony Point Council at the time? 17 A: We -- we -- no -- we didn't -- we 18 didn't deem ourselves as Kettle and Stony Point at the 19 time, sir. We were Stony Point strictly. 20 Q: And were you a member of the Kettle 21 and Stony Point Band at that time? 22 A: We're all members of Stony Point -- 23 Stony Point and Kettle Point Band for some reason that 24 we're from -- from 1942 when they -- when they took over 25 Stony Point, we were all sent there, kicked over there or
1721 whatever you come with where -- where we weren't wanted 2 and we didn't want to be. 3 But we're all -- but we're all members. 4 Don't forget, all the documents of Kettle and Stony Point 5 were always kept at Kettle Point but we're still separate 6 reservation. 7 Q: Were you aware of this letter and the 8 resolution attached -- 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: -- when it was sent at the time? 11 A: No, sir. I did not. 12 Q: Were you entitled to be made aware of 13 it by being a member of the Kettle and Stony Point Band? 14 A: Maybe they deemed not. 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: I see. All right. 16 I think I'd better catch up on marking 17 some exhibits. The document that went to the Department 18 of National Defence dated June 9, '93 I don't think has 19 been marked; am I correct? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 21 think so. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: That's -- for the 23 record, that's document -- Inquiry Document 2002629; can 24 we mark that as the next exhibit? 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Which document is
1731 that? 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: This is the notice to 3 the Department of National Defence dated June 9, '93. 4 It's Inquiry Document 2002629. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's at Tab 6 23 I think. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-37. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-37. It's 9 at Tab 23 I think. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 23, your Honour, yes. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-37: Notice to the Department of 13 National Defence dated June 14 9, 1993. 15 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: And the last document 17 we've been referring to is Inquiry Document Number 18 1003/422 and it begins with the letter dated April 9, 19 1996 from the Kettle and Stony Point Council. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And it's at? 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: P-38. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-38. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1741 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-38: Inquiry Document Number 2 1003/422. 3 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: And my Commission 5 Council informs me that I didn't mark the document which 6 is the Elders and the residents' resolution of November 7 28th, '95. It's Inquiry Document Number 1004/156. 8 Would you mark that as the next exhibit? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-39. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What Tab is 11 that Document at? 12 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 20. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-39: Inquiry Document Number 16 1004/156. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: Again, Mr. George, I'm going to move 20 to another topic. I want to understand the physical set 21 up at the camp in 1993 and thereafter when you and the 22 others first occupied part of the camp. 23 And I've put before you a map. It's a 24 blown up version of the map that we were all provided 25 with for our visit to the camp. You have that?
1751 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: In front of you? I've provided 3 Counsel with a smaller version. Those that were on the 4 trip two (2) weeks ago will -- will remember the map. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 6 an extra of copy of it, Mr. Roland? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 11 Q: Sorry, I'm reminded before I get to 12 this map -- I'm sorry, Mr. George, for this, that I've 13 overlooked asking you about one (1) other part of Exhibit 14 P-39 which is at Tab 20. 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And in particular the resolution on 17 the second page. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And I -- that's already the -- part 22 of this document so it's been marked as P-39, I believe. 23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it has, sir. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
1761 Q: It came as part of the Inquiry 2 Document Number 1004/156. And that appears to be a 3 resolution dated November 1995 and it reads: 4 "The Elders of the Stony Point First 5 Nation hereby declare that they will 6 not be represented in negotiations with 7 the Federal Government by the Chippewas 8 of Kettle and Stony Point or the 9 Solicitor retained by the Chippewas of 10 Kettle and Stony Point concerning the 11 return of the Stony Point lands or 12 compensation for persons displaced from 13 the Stony Point lands. 14 2. They will not be bound by any 15 settlement or agreement affecting the 16 Stony Point lands reached without the 17 direct participation and consent of the 18 Stony Point people through independent 19 Counsel." 20 And then there's a number of signatures. 21 Yours does not appear to be one (1) ,of them. There's 22 Dan Cloud, Nellie Rogers, Rosaline Manning, Pearl George, 23 Herbert George I think that is, Marlene Cloud, Carl 24 Bressette, Ron Elijah and Brenda George, right? 25 A: Yes, sir, that's right.
1771 Q: Were you aware of this resolution? 2 A: I was partly aware of it, sir. They 3 were the same -- same people that were -- that were not 4 happy with -- with some of the things that were 5 happening. 6 Q: And they were all occupiers, were 7 they not? 8 A: Well, they were with us, sir, yes, 9 sir. 10 Q: Yes. They were with you on the -- at 11 the camp? 12 A: Some -- some of them were at times 13 there. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: But not all of them. 16 Q: All right. They had all, I take it, 17 been occupiers at the time that you first occupied in May 18 of '95? 19 A: No. Not -- 20 Q: Or '93 I mean. 21 A: No, no. Not all of them were there. 22 Q: No. All right. In any event, was 23 the Stony Point First Nation Council still in place by 24 November '95? 25 A: Our -- our council?
1781 Q: Yes. 2 A: No. No. It wasn't, sir. No. 3 Q: It had be -- it had dissolved by 4 then? 5 A: It dissolved. 6 Q: All right. And was this a group that 7 was -- that represented a different view than others who 8 were occupiers? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And what was the difference in view? 11 What was their difference? 12 A: We were there to hold onto our lands 13 and -- and get our lands back. We were there to hold our 14 own lands and get back our own lands. These other people 15 are -- were after many different things. Like money, 16 property and all that stuff which -- which we couldn't 17 even deal with at that time. 18 Q: So when you say "these other people", 19 are we talking about the people who signed this 20 resolution? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Okay, Mr. George, I'm going to now
1791 take you to the map and as I -- to assist all of the -- 2 all Counsel -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roland, 4 I think you have to keep speaking into the mike. 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 8 Q: To assist all Counsel with -- with the 9 help of the Registrar, I've located north -- true north 10 on this map. It isn't marked and if we look at the line 11 that runs diagonally from the middle left portion of it 12 with a twenty-four (24), and runs up to the top right- 13 hand, if we simply put north on that line, that appears 14 to be true north. So that we know which -- what's north 15 and south. 16 I've marked that on your map. But for 17 Counsel, to assist them, that appears to be the direction 18 of north, right? 19 A: Yes, sir, it is. 20 Q: And so as we look at it, actually the 21 writing runs truly east/west on it. The lettering runs 22 in an east/west direction. 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Now, I've put a red pen beside you 25 and what I'd like you to do, if you could, is -- is mark
1801 on the map first of all where the occupiers went in at 2 the time that you first occupied in 1993, May 6th, 1993? 3 If you could put an "X" at the location where you went 4 in. You'll see the dark line that runs along the bottom 5 of the map appears to be Highway 21. 6 We're going to put it up on the screen and 7 so that all can see once you mark it in red. So we'll 8 have a record of this and you can point it out to us as 9 well when it's on the screen. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: We're waiting to have it 14 put up on the screen so you can tell the rest of the 15 assembled Counsel where you've marked the X. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 20 going to be a while on this. This might -- we're about 21 almost 4:30 this might be a -- with your leave, an 22 appropriate moment to break for the day. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was hoping 24 that we might go until five o'clock today. 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. Oh, I --
1811 sorry, I thought it was 4:30. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we 3 started at 10:30 -- 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- so going 6 to 5:00 won't be too long a day, I don't think. Is that 7 all right with you, Mr. Roland? 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We're not going to be 10 able to put this up on the screen. It looks like the -- 11 the light's burned out on this machine, so... 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Will we be 13 able to put it up tomorrow, do you think? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We can put it up 15 tomorrow, yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 17 technician is indicating yes. Well, if you have a few 18 more questions, Mr. Roland, to finish it off, we'd be -- 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 22 Q: Let me -- we'll leave the map for the 23 moment, Mr. George, and deal with that tomorrow. Maybe 24 we can mark it with an exhibit number for now. 25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-40.
1821 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-40. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-40: Map. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 6 Q: Mr. George, you've told us you got on 7 well with the military patrol officers after you occupied 8 part of the camp -- 9 A: Yes, I was -- 10 Q: -- from May 1993? 11 A: I was on speaking terms with them. 12 They'd stop many times and talk to me. 13 Q: They stopped and talked to you? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And I gather you recognize what they 16 were doing was carrying out regular patrols? 17 A: Yes, sir. I knew. 18 Q: As they were required to do? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And that did -- were you aware that 21 the patrols occurred four (4) times in a twenty-four (24) 22 hour period, two (2) during the day and two (2) at night? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: You were aware of that? They told 25 you that, I presume in some discussions?
1831 A: Yes. They told me. 2 Q: And that the office -- the military 3 officers patrolled throughout the camp; you knew that? 4 A: Well, they -- they patrolled 5 everywhere that I knew what is necessary for them to -- 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: -- to keep in control. 8 Q: Yes. That is, they patrolled in the 9 northern end of the camp, in the southern end of the 10 camp, in the eastern side of the camp and the western 11 side of the camp? 12 A: Yes. They had regular roads that 13 they built all around the perimeter of Stony Point and 14 that that's the roads -- that's the roads they took which 15 included right where we are living right -- right along 16 there. 21 Highway, that's where they started and went 17 around the whole deal. 18 Q: Right. They had patrol vehicles? 19 A: They had a -- they had a army truck? 20 Q: Yes. I gather the usually patrolled 21 in pairs? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And you would see them as they 24 patrolled along the road in front of your cabin? 25 A: Yes, sir.
1841 Q: I understand they also had a military 2 observation post at the barracks, a tower. Did you know 3 about that? 4 A: The only one I know of was a -- was a 5 -- was at the fire department there. It always was 6 there. 7 Q: Yes. And they were -- they used that 8 as an observation post, didn't they? 9 A: I wasn't aware of what -- what they 10 were doing there, you know. At different times I heard 11 many, many stories about some times up in the tree. 12 Sometimes up in the trees there and sometimes from there 13 with their binoculars. 14 Q: When you say "from there", you're 15 talking about the -- what are you talking about as 16 "there"? 17 A: I don't -- 18 Q: With their binoculars? What do you 19 mean as "there with their binoculars"? Where is -- 20 where was "there"? 21 A: Up on that -- up on that fire 22 department tower. 23 Q: Right. 24 A: Because that -- that was the highest 25 building there at the time and still is. The only thing
1851 that -- that -- that is there higher than that is -- is 2 the water tower, now, has been built since I was there. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Well, I'm being -- I'm stymied by the 7 technology here, Mr. George, because I wanted to take you 8 to the -- to a diagram, schemata of the military barracks 9 so that you could locate that tower for us, but I gather 10 the same problem occurs. We can't get it up on the 11 screen. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We've gone 13 to a -- a lower tech screen, as you may notice, for these 14 days. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: Let me turn to another topic. We'll 18 -- we'll leave that one for tomorrow. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Mr. George, I listened to the answers 21 that you gave to Mr. Sandler this afternoon about hunting 22 and you said that, as I understood it, that all of the 23 adult occupiers, at least male occupiers, were hunters. 24 Is that right? 25 A: Well, almost off and on all their
1861 lives they hunted periods of -- of -- they hunted in 2 periods of -- when -- when the right deals were on, 3 different seasons of the year. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: I know that. They -- we all did, 6 same as fishing. 7 Q: Yeah. And you said they hunted 8 rabbits? 9 A: Yes, rabbits. 10 Q: And deer? 11 A: Deer. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: Coon 14 Q: Sorry? 15 A: Coon. 16 Q: Coon? Okay -- 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Sorry, thank you. And -- and birds, 19 as well? Ducks, geese? 20 A: Well, sure, sure. They were -- they 21 were ready to -- to have anything because we -- we ate 22 everything. Geese and ducks and ... 23 Q: And geese and ducks flew over the 24 army camp, geese during the season -- migration seasons, 25 didn't they?
1871 A: Not so much there, but -- but there - 2 - but there was a few that -- that went over. 3 Q: Yeah. And as I heard your answer to 4 Mr. Sandler you said that the occupiers probably had 5 guns. It's not my business to go around to search their 6 homes. 7 A: Yes, I said that. 8 Q: Yes. And what you said, I take it, 9 is that they had guns for the purpose of hunting? 10 A: That's as I understand it. They -- 11 they like hunting and -- but they weren't going to use it 12 for -- for -- to take over the camp. None of -- none of 13 them kind of guns. Or any kind of guns. 14 Q: Well, you heard the evidence of -- 15 that maybe we may hear from Mr. Scott Ewart. Mr. Sandler 16 put that to you, about the fact that this bailiff who you 17 and the other councillors had retained, was invited to 18 come hunting and did come hunting on the -- at the camp, 19 on the reserve from time to time. 20 A: I don't think they -- they hunted too 21 much on the reservation, sir, because there's not that 22 much game there with all the activities that's going on. 23 It is mostly off the reserve. 24 Q: And with -- if it was off the 25 reserve, where were they hunting off the reserve?
1881 A: Many different places, sir. The 2 whole -- the whole perimeter of -- of -- Bosanquet 3 Township is -- is a hunting grounds for deer, especially 4 up at Pinery Park. Any place like that. So there's 5 many, many different places. We go into hunting coon. 6 We're allowed to go on hunting coon by the 7 farmers. So there was a lot -- there was a lot of places 8 for us to go -- to go hunting and fishing and. 9 Q: So was Mr. Ewart wrong when he was 10 asked in the recorded interview about guns to say that he 11 was hunting. He went there hunting? 12 A: No, he's probably right. Because 13 they are -- there are, at times, there's -- there's game 14 there. 15 Q: He said, 16 "I took my gun to Stony Point and I did 17 some deer hunting"? 18 A: Well, he probably did. 19 Q: How far was your cabin -- what 20 distance was it from your cabin to Dudley George's 21 trailer? 22 A: Well, it was only probably about a 23 thousand (1,000) yards. 24 Q: Sorry. 25 A: Probably about a thousand (1,000)
1891 yards. 2 Q: A thousand (1,000) yards, so it's 3 quite a distance; was it? 4 A: Yes, quite a little distance. 5 Q: Could you see Dudley George at his 6 trailer from your cabin? 7 A: On the road I could, yes, sir. 8 Q: If you went to the road, you could 9 see his trailer? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And could you see -- was he -- was -- 12 could you see him at the trailer as well if he was 13 outside the trailer? 14 A: Well, you would. I seen everybody 15 that was -- that was round there because there was -- 16 there was some of his brothers there and his -- 17 Q: And do I have it that you, from time 18 to time, visited Dudley George at his trailer? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: How often would you visit him at his 21 trailer? 22 A: Oh, periodically I drove around. I 23 drove around and if I see somebody outside there I stop 24 and talk to them. 25 Q: Mmm hmm. You've told us that you
1901 would leave the camp once or twice a day to get water and 2 to do other things? 3 A: Once or twice a week mostly. 4 Q: Once or twice a week? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: I'm sorry. I misunderstood. All 7 right, and you had a vehicle? 8 A: Yes, sir. I did at the time. 9 Q: And what was your vehicle? 10 A: It was a little Hyundai. 11 Q: And it was -- you had the same 12 vehicle from May '93 through to September '95? 13 A: Yes, sir. No -- no, I didn't. I had 14 a different -- different vehicle by then. 15 Q: What was the vehicle? 16 A: It was a Chevy. A little, you know, 17 a little older model Chevy because the little Hyundai 18 conked out on my. 19 Q: Okay. Right. And did Mr. George -- 20 sorry, did Mr. Dudley George have a vehicle at all? 21 A: No, sir. 22 Q: All right. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 24 to interrupt you in the middle of a point, Mr. Roland, 25 but are you nearing the end of a point so we can adjourn
1911 for the day? 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's as good a time as 3 any. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's as good 5 a time as any? 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 8 we'll call it a day. I don't want to suggest that Mr. 9 George is getting tired but I think the rest of us are. 10 So I do think this is an appropriate time 11 to adjourn. Have you got anything you want to say at the 12 end of the day? No? So we reconvene tomorrow morning at 13 ten o'clock. 14 15 (WITNESS RETIRES) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 20 adjourned until Tuesday, September 21st at 10:00 a.m. 21 22 --- Upon adjourning at 4:36 p.m. 23 24 25
1921 2 3 4 Certified Correct 5 6 7 8 9 _________________________ 10 Wendy Warnock 11 Court Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25