11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 September 10th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Okin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 18 (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) (np) 25 Sue Freeborn )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) Charles Narnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 Clifford George, Sworn 6 7 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 9 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 140 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 154 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Jonathon George 172 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Sue Freeborn 182 12 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 190 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-25 Book of documents re 4 Clifford George 11 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon resuming at 9:00 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This public inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, 7 Everybody. We're ready to begin. I'm going to call Mr. 8 Don Worme who's going to be examining our first witness 9 today. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Thanks very much, Mr. 11 Commissioner. And greetings first of all to the -- to 12 the Commissioner, to the Commission and to my Learned 13 Friends who are showing up here so early. I know that we 14 all had a fairly late night last night and I appreciate 15 the early start this morning. 16 I understand, Mr. Commissioner, that the 17 objective today is to adjourn approximately by 4:00 p.m. 18 in order to facilitate people's travel home and such for 19 the weekend. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Unless Mr. 21 George is right almost completed and we might stay a 22 little longer but if not, then 4:00 is a good adjournment 23 time. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you very much 25 for that, sir, and I understand then we would be
81 reconvening in this location on the 20th of September. 2 Now, Mr. Commissioner, in the previous 3 eight (8) days we've had and heard from three (3) 4 witness. We've heard from the experts -- Professor 5 Johnston as well as from Ms. Joan Holmes and we've 6 attempted to set out a historical context and we trust 7 that we've accomplished that at least to some degree. 8 Yesterday we heard from Mr. Thompson and 9 with the -- who provided us with further contextual 10 evidence about the setting, provided us with the videos, 11 the photographs and such to give us all a better sense of 12 the area in question and, of course, yesterday with the 13 cooperation of Mr. Ross and Mr. Scullion's clients the -- 14 the folks from Aazhoodena we were permitted to take a 15 view of that area and of course late last evening a view 16 of the actual entrance to the park. 17 Today, Mr. Commissioner, we have called to 18 the stand Mr. Clifford George and Mr. George is already 19 seated at the witness table and so if you would have your 20 officers swear him in. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 22 George. 23 24 CLIFFORD GEORGE, Sworn: 25
91 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: Well, Cliff, you waited an awful long 3 time to tell your story, it seems. 4 A: Well, there has been, you know, the -- 5 to bring up the whole story of -- of what -- what really 6 happened and yes, it has been. I -- I've been -- I've 7 been talking here and there on -- on different aspects of 8 -- of -- of our Stoney Point and -- and how long it's 9 been taken and to get it back. 10 So, this is really the first -- first 11 chance that I've ever had to -- to completely tell you 12 people what really happened, and what -- as I understand 13 it myself, because I lived it. I lived all through it, I 14 was born in Stoney Point myself, in the 11th of March, 15 1920. 16 Q: So that would make you eighty-four 17 (84) years young today? 18 A: Eighty-four (84), yes, sir. 19 Q: Right. Your parents were -- were 20 from there? Your -- 21 A: Yes, my -- my mother was -- was from 22 -- from there completely. She -- she was a Johnson from 23 the Johnson faction and my grandfather was a Levi 24 Johnson. And from that then my father was a George, he 25 come from Georgian Island to start off with, that's why
101 he was never a -- a member. 2 Q: And your father was William George? 3 A: William George, yes, sir. 4 Q: Your grandfather was Levi Johnson, 5 and as I -- 6 A: On my -- on my mother's side, yes. 7 Q: All right, your maternal grandfather 8 was Levi Johnson? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I think if we haven't already, we 11 will be seeing some evidence in due course, that your 12 grandfather, Levi Johnson, had an allotment of land at 13 the location that is now known as the Army Base, or which 14 is of course Stoney Point? 15 A: Yes, that's right. 16 Q: And do you know where his allotment 17 was and the size of that allotment? 18 A: All that open land to -- to the right 19 of the camp, and plus part of the camp, was his. He had 20 an eighty (80) acre farm there. And -- and very 21 successful, according to the information that I got. 22 Q: All right. Did you -- did you have 23 the privilege of knowing your grandfather? 24 A: No, I never, he died in 1919 in the 25 flu epidemic.
111 Q: I see. Your grandmother or your -- 2 either of your grandparents, whether on your -- on your 3 father's side, did you get to know them? 4 A: My -- my grandmother, Mrs. Johnson, 5 was Hanna -- Hanna Johnson, she -- she was alive even 6 when I come back from overseas. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Commissioner, we 8 have a book of documents, I'm wondering -- we will be 9 referring to that from time to time. My Friends have 10 been provided with copies, hard copies as well. And we 11 would attempt to put the -- the exhibits up on the 12 screen, if that is at all possible. 13 And I would ask that this book of exhibits 14 perhaps be made -- or pardon me, these -- these book of 15 documents be made exhibits in these Proceedings. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-25, Your Honour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 25, Thank 18 you very much. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-25: Book of documents re Clifford 21 George 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: And just bear with me for a moment. 25
121 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: For those with the hard copies, it's 4 under Tab 3. And what we have on the -- on the screen, 5 is a picture of what presumes to be Hanna Johnson. Hanna 6 Johnson White is the caption above it. That is your -- 7 the person you're referring to? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And you say that together 10 with your grandfather, Levi Johnson, they farmed eighty 11 (80) acres, that was your -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. Do you know what kind of 14 farming that they were engaged in, can you tell us 15 anything about that? 16 A: Just -- just ordinary -- ordinary 17 farming, that everybody was doing at that time at that -- 18 at that time. 19 Q: All right. You have siblings as 20 well, you have brothers and -- and sisters? 21 A: Yes, I -- I had two (2) brothers 22 older than myself, and then I had -- I had four (4) 23 sisters. 24 Q: And if we look at Tabs 6 and 7. 25
131 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: The picture up on the screen under 4 Tab 6 is Clarence George, that's your brother? 5 A: That is my brother next to me. 6 Q: All right, and it would appear to me 7 that he is in -- is that military attire? 8 A: That -- that was after he come back 9 from -- from overseas. 10 Q: All right. And at Tab 7 there's a 11 picture on the board -- on the screen behind you, Mr. 12 George, it says Kenneth George? 13 A: Yes, he's -- he's the one that signed 14 -- signed up with -- with me in 1941. 15 Q: All right. You have -- or had 16 sisters, can you tell us about that? 17 A: Yes, my -- my -- in the very 18 depression years, they were sent to residential school, 19 all four (4) of them. 20 Q: And their names? 21 A: Their name is Aileen, Bernice, 22 Constance, and Iris. 23 Q: And they went to residential school 24 you say -- 25 A: In -- in Muncey, sir.
141 Q: The Muncey Residential School? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Your children -- you have children as 4 well? 5 A: Yes, I have two (2) daughters. 6 Q: And one (1) of them is present here 7 today to watch these proceedings? 8 A: Yes, my youngest daughter, Lorraine. 9 Q: All right. And your other daughter 10 is named Deirdre? 11 A: Deirdre. 12 Q: All right. I wonder if you might 13 just maybe -- maybe start by telling us, if you would, 14 Mr. George, about growing up at Stoney Point, you were 15 born at Stoney Point, you've indicated earlier? 16 A: Yes, I did. I was born in Stoney 17 Point, like I said, in March 11, 1920, and -- and I think 18 it was the -- the start of the depression, you know, and 19 it was -- it was really tough -- tough living for 20 everyone, and not only -- not only the reservation, but 21 -- but also the farmers were -- were having a rough time 22 at that time at -- at the big depression in '29 and stuff 23 like that. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: So, it was very -- it was -- very
151 difficult, and there was no -- it was nothing like it is 2 today, no welfare, no nothing, we had to fend around for 3 -- for whatever -- whatever we needed. And most of that 4 -- most of that come from the reservation itself, a lot 5 of stuff in there. 6 That is why we -- we as Natives are -- are 7 keepers of the land and -- and we use -- we use what's -- 8 what's grown there, and we had lots of it there for -- 9 for us to use during the whole season, that we used as 10 food. 11 Q: All right. As you were growing up on 12 Stoney Point, I understand you went to day school there? 13 A: Yes, I did. We had a school there, a 14 one (1) room -- a one (1) room school that -- that 15 handled everything from -- from grade one (1) to grade 16 eight (8). 17 Q: And how far did -- 18 A: And that's one (1) school teacher. 19 Q: I'm sorry. And how far did you -- 20 did you get along in that school? 21 A: I went -- I went to grade eight (8) 22 and that was -- that was my limit. 23 Q: Did you go beyond grade eight (8) at 24 all, sir? 25 A: No, no, I never did.
161 Q: All right. And in terms of your -- 2 your school life and growing up on the Reserve at that 3 age, can you tell us anything about that? 4 A: Well, like I say, we -- we're all 5 very close, very close people, you know, the whole -- the 6 whole Reservation was very close. And we all helped each 7 other and everything like that, you know, and especially 8 like -- like if we -- we killed a deer, well we split it 9 with all the other people. 10 And we helped each other that way, and it 11 was a very good community. It was very -- it was a very 12 Christian community at that time, because we had a Church 13 there right by the school. 14 So, it was a very -- a very good 15 community, and -- and we all, you know, we all managed to 16 -- to get along quite well that way. 17 Q: And you had your friends and 18 relatives around you? 19 A: Yes, all the time. We -- we played 20 ball, we done this, you know, and I grew up a little 21 older, and we -- we done everything that, you know, that 22 ordinary young people do. 23 Q: Right. I think you -- you told me at 24 some point in the past, sir, about your grandfather had 25 built a fairly substantial building, as -- as I recall?
171 A: Yes, my grandfather, Levi, at -- at 2 the first brick building on the Reservation. It was 3 demolished in 1942 when the take-over was, because it 4 couldn't be moved. And he also -- he also had two (2) 5 large barns and -- and many animals and stuff like that. 6 So -- so he was well fixed, according to all the rest of 7 the farmers, because I worked for all the farmers around 8 the district when I grew up. So -- so they all had good 9 -- good -- had good reports of -- of my grandfather. 10 Q: All right. And you've told us 11 something about the difficult times in -- in the 12 depression years. Can you add anything to that? 13 A: Yes. Like -- like I said before, we 14 -- we lived mostly off -- of the land, you know, as much 15 as we could and -- and work was very scarce and stuff 16 like that. I -- we worked for farmers and then -- and 17 luckily the celery gardens appeared. 18 And we always had work in the summertime 19 there, right clean through to the fall in the lifting out 20 of the celery. That's from -- from below the hill on the 21 way to Grand Bend -- right clean through to Grand Bend. 22 That was all -- three (3) different lakes 23 there at that time but they're all drained now for that 24 purpose. 25 Q: And you call them the celery gardens?
181 A: Celery gardens, it was known as, 2 pretty well all through the field -- but there was an 3 awful lot of onions growing and the stuff like that where 4 we all worked -- we worked alongside there. 5 Neighbours around the district, because 6 they -- they need money, too, the white people, so we all 7 -- we all worked for -- for -- you know each was like a 8 dollar ($1) a day, one (1) and a quarter day was -- was - 9 - was quite a lot. Lot of time we had to walk that far 10 to -- to get to work, too, which is about four (4) or 11 five (5) miles sometimes. 12 Q: So you'd walk four (4) or five (5) 13 miles to earn -- 14 A: Sometimes -- 15 Q: -- a quarter a day? Twenty-five (25) 16 cents? 17 A: Pardon? 18 Q: So you'd walk four (4) or five (5) 19 miles to earn twenty-five (25) cents a day? 20 A: A dollar and twenty-five cents 21 ($1.25). 22 Q: Oh, I see. All right. I'm not sure 23 many people would work for that today. 24 A: We had to because we were brought up 25 that way. Like my father was a great worker and so was
191 my mother and we come from a family of -- we all had to 2 work, even the small children had to go to work, you 3 know, when we could. 4 I was pulled out of school many times to 5 go and help my dad cut the wood in the wintertime, and to 6 help neighbours. 7 Q: Your father would -- would cut wood 8 for -- for the consumption in the house? 9 A: For sale. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I was the one -- I was the one that 12 kept the fires going at home with -- with my trusty axe. 13 Q: You -- you've told us, as well, on -- 14 on previous occasions, that your parents kept a -- or 15 your mother kept a large garden, as well. 16 A: My grandmother had always -- 17 Q: Your grandmother. 18 A: -- after -- after my grandfather 19 died, she -- she always had a huge garden and -- and at 20 that time, in the hard-up times, she always made out -- 21 the two (2) outside rows close -- close to the -- close 22 to the road, this was for the gypsy as we'd call them 23 They were just farmers that -- that 24 couldn't hack it any more, they went. So they used to 25 come in and fill their -- their skirts with -- with food
201 and that is why my mother -- my grandmother planted the - 2 - to follow the road, the rest of the rows were the 3 opposite way, so. 4 So they'd pretty well know that they were 5 welcome there. 6 Q: And these -- and this was to assist 7 people that were abandoning their farms -- 8 A: Yeah. To help them along on their 9 way wherever they were going. We didn't know where they 10 were headed for or anything like that, you know. They 11 were just -- they had just up and -- and filled their 12 wagon with -- with whatever possessions that they had and 13 just took right off and left their farms. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: At that time. 16 Q: -- would this. I'm sorry? Would 17 this be aboriginal people? 18 A: No, this is all white people I'm 19 talking about, farmers, because there wasn't too many 20 farms on -- on our lands. There was -- there was quite a 21 few farmers, actually, on -- on Stoney Point. That's 22 where it allowed us information like the difference 23 between Dan Bressette -- and young Dan Bressette owning 24 two (2) properties. 25 We know right where the place was and
211 they'd come all the way from Kettle Point to -- to come 2 and work -- work the lands there. 3 Q: And I understand that you became 4 familiar with a woman by the name of Lena Lunhem? 5 A: Well, she's the one that brought me 6 into this earth -- into this world. That was a -- she -- 7 she was a great -- she was a great lady, a great medical 8 lady. She knew every plant that was good for us, and 9 also she -- she was a midwife for just about everybody 10 that -- that's alive there at that time. 11 She didn't have to be told and that, we 12 didn't have no forms at that time. She didn't have to be 13 told, she just knew for some reason, that, you know. 14 Because when I was born, she delivered 15 another young -- young woman in Kettle Point first, and 16 she walked through the bush to Stoney Point and she got 17 there in time to get -- you know, bring me into -- into 18 the world. 19 So she done that with many, many people, 20 you know. She was a regular -- a qualified midwife. 21 Q: All right. And when you say she knew 22 the -- the -- everything that was good for you, you mean 23 the medicines, the plants -- 24 A: Medicines and then just how to do it 25 and the sanity and everything like that. She was already
221 -- so when they saw Lena coming, they said put the water 2 on immediately, because here comes Lena. She'd be 3 walking across a field full of grandmothers, and you 4 know, it was just wonderful to see. 5 Q: How far -- how far is Kettle Point 6 from Stoney Point, walking distance? 7 A: Well between the -- between the two 8 (2) Reservations is two (2) one and a quarter mile (2 9 1/4) mile distances, but -- but again there's another 10 mile inland, and the same -- with ours. So, about -- I'd 11 say about a three and a half (3 1/2) to four (4) mile 12 walk through the bush. 13 Q: Do you know whether or not Lena 14 Lunhem had also treated people for -- did anything 15 besides birthing or midwifery? 16 A: She knew every plant there was in the 17 -- in the bushes that she walked through, and she just 18 knew what to get for -- for certain sicknesses, she was 19 very good at it. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: So she helped an awful lot of people, 22 awful lot of sicknesses them days that the -- the closest 23 doctor was five (5) miles away from us, and then we -- we 24 hardly ever would see him. So, mostly we had to depend 25 on the -- on the ordinary people to -- to know what --
231 what plants and what to use for our sicknesses. 2 Q: And where would she locate these 3 plants? 4 A: All -- all the different -- in the 5 bushes, see, because she'd done a lot of travelling 6 through the bushes, and she knew just about wherever -- 7 every different kind of plant grew. 8 Q: We had the privilege yesterday of 9 visiting the Stoney Point Reserve, which is of course the 10 -- also known as the Army Base. Would those plants and 11 medicines, herbs that you referred to, be located there 12 as well? 13 A: They all -- they all -- the biggest 14 part of them grew there, yes. We had -- we had 15 everything in that reservation for our needs, for 16 medicines, and for food. Early in the spring we started 17 using the -- for -- for our food. 18 Like I told you yesterday, morales and 19 then stuff like the first thing in the spring, and then 20 we started having the strawberries, they were small, but 21 they were wild, but they were good. And then raspberries 22 and the different kind, we had thimble berries and stuff, 23 and it grew -- it grew wild, and all -- all over that -- 24 that Reserve, and we all -- we all used it, we all -- and 25 it just kept on going. I notice right now that they're
241 all dying off because it's not used. 2 Q: I see. I understand that you left 3 grade eight (8) when you were fourteen (14) years of age? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And can you tell -- 6 A: Well, I had to, that's only -- that's 7 only as far as I could go, that's as far as the 8 Government ever wanted us to go, at that time. If we 9 went beyond that, you had to enfranchise, and like become 10 a businessman, a doctor, lawyer, or anything like that. 11 Q: So you would have to give up your 12 Indian status? 13 A: Yeah, you had to -- that was -- that 14 was law. 15 Q: All right. And if you gave up your 16 Indian status, did that disentitle you from living on the 17 Reserve? 18 A: Yes, it did, it disentitled you 19 completely and you were now classed as a white man. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: I went through all that but that was 22 another -- that's another story. 23 Q: We'll come to that I'm sure. 24 A: Of how -- how I got enfranchised, 25 without me asking for it -- the -- they put it onto me
251 and there's -- there's a whole reason for that. 2 Q: And I understand you left Stoney 3 Point then at seventeen (17) years of age? 4 A: Yes, that was a -- that was a basket 5 factory in Forest, and my -- my aunt was living in -- in 6 Forest at that time, she worked there for many years in a 7 basket factory, which produced apple baskets and -- and 8 all the fruit baskets that was needed at that time. 9 Since then cardboard has taken over everything and -- and 10 the factory went down -- went down, where they just 11 abandoned it. 12 Q: How long did you work there, Cliff? 13 A: Well, I worked there from seventeen 14 (17) off and on. I used to quit once and a while and go 15 picking apples in the fall, because I loved picking 16 apples and stuff like that. And most of us did, even my 17 father did. He -- he ended up working there in the -- in 18 the war years when -- when people are needed very bad, 19 after most of went -- went overseas. 20 Q: We have a picture up on the screen 21 behind you. The caption underneath reads, "William 22 George at Forest Basket Factory." 23 A: Yeah, that's him all right. That's 24 my dad, he worked there for -- you know, like after -- 25 like when the war started. That's when they needed help
261 real bad, you know, because -- because everything had 2 happened. So he -- he packed and moved right into Forest 3 and -- and lived there for quite a few years. 4 Q: All right. And I think you told us on 5 -- on previous occasions and if you could share that with 6 others that your father did other things in order to 7 supplement family income. 8 A: My father was a good carpenter and not 9 only that but he made -- he made lawn furniture from -- 10 from cedar which we had plentiful in there. So -- so -- 11 so there's many -- many -- many people like Robert George 12 and -- and him were the best carpenters of that deal and 13 they was to peddling -- peddling that -- them -- they 14 made everything from -- from tables and chairs and big 15 chairs, small chairs, rocking chairs. 16 They made it all of cedar and -- and to 17 right today you can see some of them and -- some of the - 18 - some of the places yet they -- they're still holding 19 up. 20 Q: The cedar was gathered where? 21 A: Cedar was or -- in -- in our own 22 properties, like in -- in -- in Stoney Point 23 itself. 24 Q: So I get the sense from you that the 25 land provided pretty much everything --
271 A: And it -- it is ideal for -- for just 2 about anything and through -- through the different 3 seasons. 4 Q: All right. You said that you worked 5 at the Forest Basket Factory until you were seventeen 6 (17)? 7 A: No, I -- I went there about when I was 8 about seventeen (17) and off and on until -- until I was 9 twenty-one (21). I was twenty-one (21) years old when I 10 -- when I joined the services. 11 Q: Okay. I wonder if you could tell us 12 about that. 13 A: Well, they -- they were reporting in - 14 - in London. The -- the outfit was from out west and the 15 62nd Battery, the Anti-Aircraft Regiment and they were 16 recruiting in London, Ontario, and -- and they -- they 17 offered to come -- come after us uptown. 18 I went away to join the army. My -- my 19 aunt -- my aunt was protective of me at that time because 20 -- I forgot to tell you -- my -- my mother passed away in 21 1939 at the age of thirty-nine (39). So -- so what I 22 said, my -- my -- my aunt more or less took over and 23 looked after me and she's the one that got me the -- got 24 me the work there because she worked there for many 25 years.
281 Q: All right. Just to go back to the -- 2 to the point that you made, your mother passed away in 3 1939? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And where was she buried? 6 A: She's buried in Stoney Point, there, 7 and we don't even know where on account of the desolation 8 that -- that they caused there, you know, of -- of -- 9 that growth and everything there and they just absolutely 10 neglected it. 11 I know -- I remember my father writing to 12 me, don't worry about our -- our cemetery. It's well 13 looked after because -- it's -- it's in the books that -- 14 that they would look after it -- the -- the army that -- 15 that took over. But they didn't and it was -- it was a 16 horrible mess when we come home from overseas. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: It was very devastating to us, as a 19 matter of fact. 20 Q: We'll -- we'll come to that in a bit, 21 Mr. George. In 1941, though, you were recruited out of 22 London, Ontario. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you ended up joining the 4th Light 25 Anti-Aircraft Regiment 62nd Battery?
291 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I note that you have a lot of 3 hardware on your chest, if I could put it that way. 4 A: Yes, I -- I think I earned every one 5 (1) of them. 6 Q: All right. And those medals were -- 7 were earned during the course of your service? 8 A: Second World War and -- and as a 9 matter of the fact, the Battle of Britain. I was there 10 in 1941 when we started shooting -- shooting F-planes and 11 I might as well say -- I don't want to say we shot them 12 down. 13 Q: That's very modest. 14 A: But we -- but we -- nightly we drove 15 for the coast and -- and took care of, you know -- 16 because at that time it was very -- it was heavy -- heavy 17 bombing was on and stuff like that, so -- 18 Q: You trained for your combat? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And where did that occur? 21 A: Well -- well, most of it, you know, we 22 -- we -- trained very little in -- in Canada in London, 23 Ontario, to start off with because they needed us 24 overseas right away so that's how come we got -- got 25 overseas. And then we started to train on -- on the 40
301 millimetre anti-aircraft guns and -- and that's where we 2 started using them, in the -- on the coast. 3 Q: And when you say, "The coast," you 4 mean the coast of where? 5 A: The coast of -- of -- of the -- the -- 6 the south coast of -- the English Channel. The north 7 coast of the English Channel all along from Dover right 8 clean through to -- to Portsmouth and stuff like that. 9 Q: And that's where you were originally 10 stationed? 11 A: Well, we moved a lot. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Because they didn't want us to stay 14 in one (1) place too long, because that way we -- we 15 exchanged all over the place, you know, to keep us 16 moving, because -- well, they had reasons, you know. You 17 get stationed in one (1) place too long, it gets boring 18 and so it is always a new challenge to -- to move to 19 another -- to another site. Same work though. 20 Q: All right, and your work was 21 defending -- 22 A: Pardon? 23 Q: -- your work was defending England 24 from bombers? 25 A: Yes, yes. Well, that's what we
311 mostly done, I guess they come in droves and droves, and 2 not only that but fighter -- a fighter aircraft was -- 3 was able to -- was able to get the -- to the coast, drop 4 a couple bombs and then split off. 5 So -- so that was -- that was a big part 6 of our -- our job along the coast there, was to -- to 7 intercept them coming in and that was where we shot -- or 8 the George boys shot their first plane. 9 Q: And when you say "the George boys", 10 you mean your brother -- 11 A: Which was -- which was when -- 12 whenever all the Georges -- the sons that joined up with 13 me, Tom George was his name and my -- and my one (1) 14 brother Ken George, and myself, that was the three (3) of 15 us, they called us the George boys. 16 Q: And the George boys shot their first 17 plane...? 18 A: Yes, and there was a new -- it wasn't 19 allowed, but one (1) of the boys, they needed an officer 20 -- he had a good education, so he was -- he was sent 21 home, and he's the one (1) that brought the message that 22 the -- that the George boys shot their first plane. 23 Otherwise -- otherwise a message like that would never 24 get through at that time. 25 Q: I see. Where all did you -- did you
321 see combat, Mr. George? 2 A: Well, like I said, England to start 3 off with, and then -- and then I was transferred to the 4 2nd Division of -- of the Canadian Army, which -- but I 5 wasn't there at the time, they transferred me over when 6 they started breaking up the anti-aircraft regiments to 7 help with the depletion of the infantry. 8 So -- so anyway -- anyway, in my -- in my 9 deal I was -- I was sent to Dover, with the 2nd Division, 10 because I was over -- overseas with the 3rd Division. 11 They're the ones that made the -- the landing on -- on 12 the sixth deal. 13 And we -- we're the 2nd Division landed in 14 -- in France about two (2) weeks later. My first 15 engagement in -- in France was within Caan, and then it 16 was tough fighting from thereon right clean through for 17 these guys. And then we -- we as a -- as the 2nd 18 Division, we retook Dieppe again, ourselves, like we're - 19 - we're made that way. 20 So -- and my gun was situated right above 21 the hill there and in Dieppe and then I saw all the 22 crosses, the well kept crosses. We -- we were amazed at 23 that, you know, to see how well they looked after our -- 24 the devastation that led the invasion of Dieppe meant to 25 us, you know, it was all Canadian crosses. But -- but
331 the people themselves really looked after them crosses, 2 and you might as well say miles of it down there. 3 And that's where my position -- my gun was 4 positioned, I was a non-commissioned officer, most of the 5 time and in the services. 6 Q: Okay. You were in -- you were in 7 Dieppe village? 8 A: Yes. But we -- we made a -- what 9 they call a -- the grand -- the grand parade, because 10 every -- all my gang was mad at me, because I had to get 11 them all dressed up, so we'd make -- make them march, at 12 the retake of Dieppe, officially. 13 Q: I see. And the enemy was situated 14 where? 15 A: Well, we -- we finally asked where -- 16 where are the Germans, and they said on the other end of 17 town. But they were on the run at that time, so it was - 18 - it was quite a sight to see, you know, the -- when we 19 saw in pictures about, you know, how -- how they -- how 20 they were getting very -- very poor in their equipment. 21 So, it was nothing to see one (1) -- one 22 (1) big gun tractor pulling maybe a half a dozen guns and 23 stuff like that, along the way. 24 So, it -- it was quite -- quite the deal. 25 But there was still -- there was still fighting, and you
341 know, we -- we followed the coast right to -- right to 2 Belgium ourselves, and in the 2nd Division. And -- 3 Q: Pursuing -- pursuing the German army, 4 I gather? 5 A: Well -- well, they're -- they had 6 their periodic that they'd stop and hold up and keep us 7 back. So -- so that was our job is to -- and there was 8 many forts along the -- along that -- the river itself, 9 the -- the canal. 10 Q: And I gather during this time you had 11 also witnessed what has been termed "friendly fire 12 casualties?" 13 A: Oh, yes. Several times. Not worth 14 the mention, but I seen a whole -- whole Polish division, 15 they were ready to take -- take over the front line and 16 the American bombers come along from way high, you can 17 hardly see them and then they just wiped -- wiped them 18 all out. 19 And I seen the British -- British bombers 20 behind me, I was standing on top of this hill with my gun 21 early in the morning, and I could see -- I could see the 22 bomb doors opening -- opening, and out poured a -- but 23 they were in a valley just behind me, so it wiped out 24 quite a -- quite a few of our staff people. 25 So some of the things like that you know,
351 that happened. The movement was so fast, you know, they 2 -- they couldn't keep up with -- with exactly, you know, 3 the deals of how fast -- how fast the front lines were -- 4 were moving. And that is -- that is half the reason and 5 wrong communications, or whatever, were bad, and stuff 6 like that. 7 So, it was no fault of their own, they 8 didn't deliberately do it, it was just something that 9 happened, and it happened in the war. 10 I ended up in -- I ended up in -- in what 11 they call a filet's gap (phonetic), which is a heck of a 12 big tank battle, I was -- I was there right in the mix of 13 it, with my gun. And they fired all -- all night long, 14 we counted thirty-eight (38) -- thirty-eight (38) tanks 15 from both sides, that shot that night. 16 That was the end of the -- that was the 17 end of the -- the real -- the real defence that they had, 18 and from that time on they were on the run, and we were 19 chasing them, that's how come. That's how come my -- I 20 was on reccy -- I was on reccy with -- with a couple of 21 other officers and that's how we -- we got into Dieppe. 22 Q: And when you say "reccy", you mean 23 reconnaissance? 24 A: No, we're just reconnaissance. 25 Q: Reconnaissance rather?
361 A: Yeah, so -- so we ended up right -- 2 right in -- right in Dieppe down there, and -- and our -- 3 our jeep looked like a wedding procession with all the 4 flowers they'd piled on us when they'd stopped us in the 5 middle -- middle of Dieppe there, and it's quite -- quite 6 the deal, you know, to see. They kept piling the flowers 7 on, piling the flowers on, and that -- that is when we 8 asked, where are the Germans? And they said, On the 9 other end of town. 10 So, we had to go back for our -- for our 11 people, and then we -- we moved right in, right into 12 Dieppe. 13 Q: Oh, I see, okay. So you had them 14 dress up and move into -- into town? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you stayed -- 17 A: A big march -- a big march past, and 18 you know, to -- to officially take over Dieppe. 19 Q: And did you stay there? 20 A: No, we moved on right up the coast 21 there, I went up as far as Belgium, and by that time 22 again they needed -- they needed infantry very bad, and 23 my -- my whole gun detachment was -- was scheduled to -- 24 to go. I wasn't, on account of I was -- I was a non- 25 commissioned officer, but I asked, I said I would, but
371 they -- and the Sergeant Major said are you crazy, you're 2 going into the infantry. 3 Well, I said, I don't care, I want to 4 stick with my gang. I got to the -- the first depot, all 5 my gang left, I never seen them again, to this day. I 6 was sent back to England on account of -- on account of 7 me being a non-commissioned officer, I was sent to 8 England for -- for a reconversion course they call it. 9 And that was when I was -- I was on -- on 10 draft again. I thought to go back to France, I ended up 11 in Italy. 12 Q: And what happened in Italy? 13 A: Well, I -- I joined the -- the Royal 14 Canadian Regiment and they were on static lines in -- in 15 the Sanjo (phonetic) River, and that's where I was taken 16 prisoner of war. 17 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about that? 18 A: Well, they just -- they just burst in 19 on us in the middle of the night and we were -- we 20 weren't very well equipped for, you know, because it's 21 just in a static line, so we're a little slack. Not only 22 that, but we didn't have too many people, you know, to 23 defend and so they came in the back way, they knew all 24 about it, you know, just how to get at us, and seventeen 25 (17) of us were taken out of that house.
381 Q: And when you say -- 2 A: And it was -- it was -- it was very 3 muddy at that time, and that was in -- that was in -- in 4 February. And it was my night off and I just -- I just - 5 - when they -- when they burst in on us, all I done was 6 slip my -- slip my boots on, my -- and first two (2) 7 steps out in that -- out in that mud I lost my shoes and 8 I end up walking two hundred and fifty (250) miles to -- 9 to the first camp. 10 But -- but, again, again, that's where it 11 comes in handy to be -- you know, to know what to do. I 12 wrap -- I wrapped newspaper and anything I can get a hold 13 of rags and everything like that and that's the way I 14 walked. Twenty (20) miles at a time right -- right to -- 15 that two hundred and fifty (250) miles to -- to -- to 16 where this holding unit was. 17 It wasn't a stalag it was a dulag. Dulag 18 339 was the name of it in -- in Manitoba. From that on 19 they try several times to take us through the Brenner 20 Pass to take us into Germany to a regular stalag. 21 But every time -- every time they got us 22 prepared and in the -- in the trains our allies would 23 come and bomb the Brenner Pass shut. So eventually after 24 a few tries they decided to take us up -- up -- up the 25 hills -- up the mountain so we ended up way, way up in
391 the -- in -- in -- right next to Austria. 2 By that time -- by that time there's about 3 three (3) -- three (3) feet of snow everywhere. 4 Q: Did you ever get your shoes back? 5 A: No, they -- they equipped kept me 6 with -- with Red Cross -- Red Cross shoes that are over- 7 sized for everybody. So mine was about a size 14 that I 8 clunked around in until I got back to England. 9 Q: How long were you -- were you a 10 prisoner of war, Cliff? 11 A: Well, from -- from that time on until 12 the end of the war. And, of course, the end of the war 13 ended in Italy officially a month before the regular war 14 ended. 15 So by that -- by that time it was -- it 16 was just -- just a little over three (3) months. So I 17 was never -- never compensated for being a prisoner of 18 war. 19 Q: Is there -- is there separate 20 compensation for war prisoners? 21 A: Yes, yes. There was -- there was 22 separate but -- but we had to be in for -- for the whole 23 ninety (90) days and we were lacking two (2) or three (3) 24 days so -- so they didn't pay us compensation for that. 25 As a matter of fact they're getting a
401 pension today for that, you know, the ones that -- I 2 didn't bother applying for it. I could have just here 3 recently we were relenting to some of this stuff but I 4 didn't bother putting in for, you know. 5 Q: Is there anything that you can share 6 with us about your time as a prisoner of war by way of 7 what were the conditions like? 8 A: We starved to death. We were hungry 9 all the time, you know. twenty-four (24) hours a day and 10 the food wasn't -- wasn't the best. Many -- many's the 11 time I had to -- I had to pick bugs out of my soup and 12 share my -- with the rest of people, oh no. You know. 13 But that -- that was -- it was food. 14 It was all they had, you know. That's -- 15 they were getting that -- that horribly -- you know to 16 feed it. They give us what -- what they could. So it 17 was just soup and -- and horrible loaf of bread a day and 18 there was a small black bread, we called it. And we made 19 that last all day. We had to. 20 A: Mmm hmm. 21 So we were -- we were very -- you know, we 22 were very hungry all the time. 23 Q: And how did you get out of there and 24 where did you go? 25 A: Well, well, they told us that -- that
411 four (4) days after we were -- we were taken prisoner 2 that's when all the Canadian army from Italy moved on and 3 joined -- joined the rest of the people in -- in -- in 4 Holland. 5 So -- so we were -- we were left there. 6 We were the last -- last prisoner of wars to be taken in 7 Italy. So -- so what happened was -- was -- was after -- 8 after -- after they declared war is over with ,we waited 9 for a few days and -- and in walked the American -- 10 American -- one (1) section of American infantry. 11 They're the ones that found us. Nobody 12 knew we were there. So they wired back and then -- and 13 then the trucks come after us and took us -- took us back 14 into Italy. And from that time on we just, you know, 15 just on the way home back to England and stuff like that 16 so. 17 Q: Do you have any -- any sense, Cliff, 18 how it is that you made it through all of that; that you 19 made it through friendly fire casualties around you, that 20 you made it through being a prisoner of war and seeing 21 the other horrors of war? 22 A: Well, I believe in God. I believe in 23 -- in being looked after the -- you know, the Supreme 24 Beings. And -- and all our -- all our -- all our 25 reserve, everybody was praying for us boys to get back
421 and stuff like that. Luckily, we -- we only lost one (1) 2 from each Reserve, that died there. One (1) from Stoney 3 Point and one (1) from Kettle Point, that -- that -- that 4 were killed in action. 5 Q: And who were those individuals that 6 gave their lives? 7 A: The -- the one was -- was -- was 8 Lloyd Bressette from Stoney Point, the other one was 9 Herman Henry. 10 Q: I see. You said that everybody back 11 home was praying for you, and how did you know that? 12 A: We didn't know it until we come back 13 home. Q: Okay. 14 A: Except -- except my dad, he wrote to 15 me steadily and he said, we're all praying for your -- 16 for your return, and stuff and that, so... 17 Q: Right. I gather your father also 18 wrote to you to tell you about other goings-on? 19 A: Yeah, he -- he kept me -- he kept in 20 touch with me about, you know, everything, like when -- 21 when -- when they took over in 1942, our lands, and they 22 took in the War Measures Act, and that way I knew -- knew 23 no recourse but to -- but to give up. 24 And the -- and the horror of it was that 25 there's a lot of old people there, it was -- it was
431 devastation to them, you know, to be moved from -- from 2 Stoney Point to Kettle Point, and it was mostly all swamp 3 land and stuff like that, where -- where they were sent, 4 and put there. 5 I remember one (1) -- one (1) archive when 6 I searching, and we are searching in the archives down 7 there, and I seen this, where this mover -- mover's son, 8 he had to buy four (4) great big large stones, and -- and 9 the house that -- that they were talking about was -- was 10 Pearl George's, which is still alive today. 11 And they -- they moved into swamp land as 12 -- as -- archives there, right, and they -- and they 13 said, the -- the Natives are very happy that their house 14 is put on solid -- solid foundation. 15 So, that was some of the things, you know, 16 that had happened at that time. 17 Also, my school teacher, Liz -- Liz 18 McKinnon, which is classed in the -- in the -- right 19 here, that she was -- she was white, she was not. She 20 was -- she was my aunt, born to a -- to a Johnson, and 21 she was a -- she was my school teacher when I started the 22 deal. 23 She owned property next to my -- my 24 grandmother, she owned forty (40) acres there, which was 25 willed to her by -- by her mother. So, but she did marry
441 a white man, but he -- he was good, he never bothered 2 nobody, and nobody tried to kick him out. 3 There was also one (1) more First War 4 Veteran in -- in Kettle Point, Ross Henry, not Ross 5 Henry, Ross Lundem. He was a First War Vet, he married - 6 - he married that Lena, I was talking about the -- the 7 Medicine Lady, he married her, and they had several 8 children. When he lived there, he refused to move out 9 and they -- they never even tried to force him out. So 10 he lived there until he died. 11 Q: In Kettle Point...? 12 A: Yes, a very poor man. He lived all 13 alone and a very poor man when he died; First War 14 Veteran, he wasn't given no compensation or nothing. 15 Q: And just getting back to your school 16 teacher, her name, again, was...? 17 A: She was -- she was a -- she ended up 18 -- Liz MacKinnon, but -- but... 19 Q: All right. I understand that she was 20 not inclined to leave Stoney Point? 21 A: Yes, when -- when the big move was on 22 to move the people off -- off the Reservation, her house, 23 she -- she said, I got this when I come back, that -- 24 that she -- she sat on her porch, daring people to -- to 25 come over, bulldozers were right behind her house, ready
451 to bulldoze it down, and she -- she -- she sat in her 2 chair outside with a shotgun across her -- her knees, 3 just daring people to come. 4 And that's why they had to pick her up; I 5 don't the gun was even loaded. But -- but she was just 6 trying to scare them. But that didn't -- that didn't 7 stop them, they -- they just, you know, they just picked 8 her up with her gun and all, and put her in her truck, 9 and they bulldozed her place down. 10 They done that to most of the houses 11 there, and, as you know, nobody's able to -- to -- to 12 keep up fixtures on the -- on the houses and stuff like 13 that, so... And there was a lot of the houses that -- 14 that wasn't moveable at all, -- 15 Q: Like your -- 16 A: -- so there was a very few of the 17 houses that -- that was moved to Kettle Point at the 18 time. 19 Q: Your grandfather's, Levi Johnson's 20 house, being one (1) of them? 21 A: Yes, it was a brick home and couldn't 22 be moved, so they had to bulldoze it down, and then, and 23 what the Government done is, they bought an old -- an old 24 cottage, and I don't know where it come, they paid a 25 hundred -- hundred and eighty-two dollars ($182) for it
461 and that's what she lived in for the rest of her life. 2 Q: Was it the same as the brick house 3 that she was in? 4 A: I doubt it. No insulation in them 5 days in most of the old houses, no insulation. The 6 windows were -- were all just single pane and stuff like 7 that so. 8 Q: Do you know what -- what month it 9 might have been or what season it might have been when 10 the big move as you called it, was put on? 11 A: What -- 12 Q: When -- when the people from Stoney 13 Point were moved to Kettle Point, do you know what season 14 that would have been? Whether it was summer, spring, 15 fall, whatever? 16 A: Well it was -- it was quite early 17 spring '42 when they -- I forget the dates completely. 18 Q: And do you know how much land people 19 would have received in Kettle Point? 20 A: They didn't receive any. They had to 21 buy it from -- from other Natives. 22 Q: All right. You said something about 23 swamp land as well? 24 A: Well, that's -- that's it. The -- the 25 people were told that you must accommodate these Stoney
471 Point people which -- which by the way they -- they 2 didn't want us over there and -- and we didn't want to go 3 there. So it was an awful lot of -- of controversies and 4 that in -- like I say they didn't want us there and we 5 didn't want to go there. 6 So it was very difficult. My father used 7 to write to me about that. So it was difficult you know, 8 and yet we're all -- we're all inter-related and inter- 9 married but there was still -- still a difference there. 10 And because the Government done that to us. 11 Q: What happened to your grandmother's 12 garden? 13 A: Well she just -- she just started 14 another garden in her place. She -- she bought quite a 15 little piece of land there and she kept on her garden and 16 stuff. But -- but the garden was -- it was right in -- 17 right in where the -- where the Army barracks is right 18 now. That's just right on -- on the edge, on the east 19 edge of it. That's where her -- that's where her home 20 was. 21 Q: All right. And access to -- to her 22 lands, that she -- you've told us that they would gather 23 other foods from? 24 A: Nothing was -- they took over the 25 whole -- the whole Reservation that two thousand (2,000)
481 thousand -- As we understand it, two thousand five 2 hundred (2,500) acres but it's less than that. 3 Q: And how did your grandmother and 4 others who moved to Kettle Point from Stoney Point, how 5 did they get by? 6 A: The best way they could because at 7 that time -- at that time they was starving, that's how 8 come my father ended up working in the Forest Basket 9 Company. And -- and employment started coming up a 10 little bit with the -- but it was very difficult for some 11 of them people because that two and a half (2.5) mile 12 trip made the whole difference in their -- in their 13 existence. 14 It was very difficult for some of them 15 people. Some of them old people that never drank in 16 their life started drinking. They grew big families and 17 then yet they ended up drinking, you know, just to 18 relieve all the -- all the problems that they were facing 19 in the deal, and they couldn't handle -- a lot of old 20 people passed away on account of that. 21 You know, their own lands which they 22 called their own and then to be moved -- to be moved and 23 then -- and not wanted where they are and then the 24 Government just didn't -- doesn't realize, you know, the 25 feelings of some of these people that are moved at that
491 time. Excuse me. 2 Q: I want to come back to -- to this 3 point, Mr. George, but I'm wondering, Mr. Commissioner, 4 if this might be an appropriate time to take a break? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. Let's 6 -- let's take a break, fifteen (15) minutes or so. 7 Fifteen (15) minutes. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 9 for fifteen (15) minutes. 10 11 --- Upon recessing at 9:57 a.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 10:12 a.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 15 resumed, please be seated. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: I just wanted to bring your 19 attention, Cliff, to that picture behind you, and it's a 20 picture that will be found under Tab 4 of the hard copies 21 for My Friends, it's a photograph of William and Mabel 22 George, and in the background is a two (2) storey 23 structure. 24 That's the house that you had told us, 25 Cliff, was bulldozed to the ground?
501 A: Yes, that -- that was the one that -- 2 that was my grandmother's original house, part -- part 3 brick and part... 4 Q: And there were some other out- 5 buildings, as well, that you told us were similarly -- 6 A: Yes, there were two (2) large barns 7 and other -- other buildings like, chicken coops, and 8 then, other small buildings, so, there was quite a few 9 buildings around. 10 Q: And were those -- were those out 11 buildings, were they also moved, or were they destroyed 12 as well? 13 A: I know they were all just destroyed. 14 Q: And do you know whether or not your 15 grandparents were compensated? 16 A: Not that I -- not that I know of; as 17 far as I know, they -- they -- they evaluated the -- the 18 whole deal and put a certain amount for -- for -- for 19 each -- each place. And that -- that's what they 20 received. 21 Q: Okay. And do you know whether, in 22 that evaluation, and you may not know, whether a count 23 was also taken, taken for the loss of other access, you 24 said, to medicines, to plants...? 25 A: No, there was never -- it was never
511 even -- never even thought of, I don't think so, you 2 know, and -- and I don't think we ever made a stink about 3 it, until we start missing them ourselves, you know. 4 Q: You were informed of the -- of the 5 move of the Appropriation of Stoney Point, by your 6 father, by way of letter, I think you've told us...? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what was your view at that point 9 when you were -- when you first found out? 10 A: Well, at that time I was too busy 11 fighting a war, I didn't -- too busy in our own -- in our 12 own business, because we are -- we are -- we are occupied 13 very heavily most of the time. So we didn't have time to 14 think about it. You only thought about when the war is 15 over with, I'll go back home to my own property. 16 Q: And I understand you also received 17 some assurance from your father that your own property 18 would be there? 19 A: Sure, you know, he told me and never 20 mind sons when the war is over with. Our properties will 21 -- will be given back to us. And that -- that is what -- 22 that is what the Government -- they wrote that in paper, 23 that they would give it to us right after the war. 24 Q: Do you know how it was that the 25 Stoney Point Reserve was taken by the Government?
521 A: I myself don't think it was -- it was 2 for -- for -- for reason of -- of -- of a camp. 3 Q: But do you know how it was that it 4 was taken? Were you ever informed, or have you 5 subsequently found out -- 6 A: No, no, I was never informed. It's 7 what we found out ourselves, you know, because there was 8 a -- how -- how it -- how it happened that we had -- we 9 had the -- the flint at -- at the Stoney Point Park 10 there, the big, they had a flint there that -- that they 11 used, and then there was also many other minerals that -- 12 that was mentioned, -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- like at Kettle Point, there's a - 15 - at Kettle Point, there's a vein of gold, Stoney Point, 16 that we always had -- that we always had a notion there 17 was -- they used to tell us, don't talk about it, but 18 there was gold, there was a lot of gold there. So I -- 19 so we figure, and -- and it took us a long time to -- to 20 -- to let the -- for the DND to admit there are tunnels 21 all over that reserve. 22 I got the -- I got the -- the deal's at my 23 place and paper also just how the -- how the -- well, 24 what the -- what the journalists was -- they -- they 25 contacted this retired -- retired, what do you call them,
531 miner. 2 He's the one -- he's the one -- was 3 articles of his own that determined just where the -- 4 where the -- and he would -- he would spot the -- where - 5 - where -- where all the tunnels were and wide they were 6 and how deep they were and he was very good at it. But, 7 that's where we got our information. 8 Q: Right and I appreciate that you found 9 this out subsequently, but, what I was asking is that 10 when you were informed that Stoney Point reserve was 11 being taken -- I think you've told us that your father 12 advised you by way of letter? 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: Did he tell you whether or not there 15 was a surrender effected or whether it was taken with -- 16 A: No, I found that later on, you know, 17 all the -- I think maybe he told me that they were 18 completely against it and then all the people even from 19 Kettle Point were against it at that time. Like, the 20 Greenbirds they -- they wrote letters and they -- they 21 got in touch with our own lawyers and then they're 22 willing, you know, to try and stop -- stop that, you 23 know, the takeover. 24 Q: All right. And do you know whether 25 or not there was ever a vote taken with respect to giving
541 up the land at Stoney Point reserve? 2 A: Well, there was -- there was -- as I 3 understand it, there was maybe two (2) or three (3) 4 different votes that were taken and then what happened 5 was that -- that they over wrongly had voted no each 6 time. 7 Q: All right. And you've indicated to 8 us, Mr. George, that some people did not leave the Stoney 9 Point reserve voluntarily? 10 A: Well, so that's what I was talking 11 about, none of -- I think none of them -- none of them 12 went voluntarily because there was their home, that was 13 their land, they were given land, and then -- and we have 14 -- we have an idea that the Creator put us there on 15 account of all -- all the essentials deals that we needed 16 on the reserve itself, the medicines and all that, the 17 wood lots and everything that goes with it. 18 So, we have a very strong conviction about 19 all that, that they were spiritually given to us many 20 years ago. 21 Q: Did you ever get a sense from your 22 grandmother as to how she felt about being relocated? 23 A: She was a very strong lady and she 24 didn't -- she didn't go along too much with that so, you 25 know, that -- that was too much for her to lose. You
551 know, all -- all the prop -- that was not the only 2 property that they owned either. They had bush lots and 3 stuff like that because my grandfather Levi was a very 4 prominent man, at that time, according to -- according to 5 the rest of the population around because -- I got most 6 of my information, as a matter of fact, from working for 7 the farmers away from there. They used to tell me how - 8 - what a good farmer Levi Johnson was. 9 Q: All right. Do you know how many 10 families were at Stoney Point reserve and made to move? 11 A: I -- I think there was -- I think all 12 together I found -- I think it was twenty-one (21) 13 families that I -- that I indicated and I know the 14 government said seventeen (17) but it was something like 15 that. 16 I counted one by one and I indicated on a 17 map exactly where they lives, exactly how many -- how 18 many people lived there. I counted as many as four -- 19 four (4) families living in one (1) -- in one (1) 20 location, one (1) house and there was a lot of them -- by 21 even including ourselves, we lived with grandma for a 22 long time because we didn't have no home at that time. 23 Q: Okay. And when you say "we," is that 24 your -- 25 A: Well, my family.
561 Q: -- your father William George? 2 A: Yes. We had -- we had a home but it 3 was sold. We -- we had a notion that if we moved to 4 Georgiana Island where he was born that we would -- we 5 would be -- we would be a -- be given -- we would be 6 taken into the band and become band members. 7 Q: At Georgiana Island? 8 A: At Georgiana Island, yeah. 9 Q: And did that happen? 10 A: We went there for -- for a couple of 11 years and then we were all -- we were all told that to go 12 to another place, it was difficult. So, slowly, slowly 13 we indicated we wanted to come back. As a matter of 14 fact, my brother next to me was the first one to move. 15 He was going to hitchhike there regardless but my aunt 16 come after him and brought him back to Stoney Point. 17 And my mother got very very lonesome for 18 her own people and her own mother because we were a very 19 close family. So, for mother's sake we -- we gradually 20 come back to Stoney Point and... 21 Q: All right and do you know what year 22 that would have been? 23 A: 1934. 24 Q: And your mother passed away some five 25 (5) years after that?
571 A: In '39, yeah. 2 Q: And then you would have joined the 3 army again a few years beyond that? 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: You eventually returned home after 6 being a prisoner of war in Italy. And the date of your 7 return? 8 A: Oh, I couldn't tell you the exact 9 date but I -- I think it was in July. I was the first 10 one to be sent back on account of me just coming out of 11 prison camp. My -- my oldest brother followed later on 12 and then the last one to come back was my -- my other 13 brother. 14 Q: All right. And what did you find 15 when you came home, Cliff? 16 A: It's a little hard to talk about 17 sometimes because -- because it was very difficult for 18 us, I mean, to come back. We -- we automatically went to 19 my aunt's house in -- in Forest. As a matter of fact, I 20 don't know whether I told you this or not, but -- but at 21 the time it was just about the end of the war and I told 22 -- I told my wife then to make applications for Canada. 23 Q: Okay, let me just -- let me just stop 24 you there for a moment, if I may. This is the first time 25 you've mentioned a wife. You got married where?
581 A: I got marr -- I got married in 2 London, England. 3 Q: Okay. And it's a lady you would have 4 met there during your service? 5 A: Yes, I've known her about going on 6 three (3) years when I -- when we finally got married. 7 Q: And you would have met her where? 8 A: I met her on the -- as a matter of 9 fact, I met her on the east coast, she had relatives 10 there when I was on -- on a gun site there. They were 11 allowed to go and visit because there was a no-no, you 12 know, for people to travel in there but if you had 13 relatives there they were allowed to go in there, 14 restricted areas, that they called it, along the coast. 15 Q: And what is her name? 16 A: Agnus, Agnus Mary Brown she was. 17 Q: All right. So you met her on the 18 east coast of England, I gather? 19 A: On the south -- south coast. 20 Q: Pardon me, south coast. 21 A: South coast there along the channel, 22 near Brighton. 23 Q: Okay. And would this have been when 24 you were initially stationed there? 25 A: Yes. I was stationed all along --
591 all along the south coast of -- of England intersecting 2 planes coming over, so, we were moved constantly and one 3 of he moves there that's -- that's where I met her. 4 Q: All right and you continued your tour 5 and I gather maintained contact with her? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you married her when? 8 A: In 1944 when I got sent back from 9 Holland because we already had -- already had the bands 10 ready, we had everything when the invasion come, so, we 11 had to postpone it but everything was all set so I got a 12 nine (9) day leave then when I come back from -- from 13 Holland and we married then. 14 Q: All right. So you were then 15 thereafter, at some point, taken prisoner of war and 16 eventually released? 17 A: Yes, that's -- that's about -- I was 18 only in England maybe about a month when I was sent over 19 -- over to Italy so -- so. And then that is -- that is 20 where I wrote to her from, I told her because the war is 21 just about ending and there was going to be an awful flux 22 of people wanting to -- of war brides wanting to come to 23 Eng -- to Canada. She applied and that's how she -- she 24 come here before I was released from prison camp. 25 Q: Okay and you were re-united with her
601 at some point? 2 A: In -- in -- in -- when I come back 3 from overseas. 4 Q: Okay and where was that? 5 A: In Forest, Ontario. 6 Q: I understand that she came to reside 7 with your aunt? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I think that's where you were 10 just telling us upon coming back to Canada you went 11 immediately then to your aunt's place? 12 A: Yes. Well, that's -- that's the only 13 place I had to go. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: But we -- but we did have occasion to 16 go and visit my grandmother when she was living on -- on 17 the reserve then. We travelled back and forth visiting. 18 Q: When you say "on the reserve," you 19 mean Kettle Point? 20 A: Kettle Point, yeah. 21 Q: All right. Your grandmother was 22 happy to see you no doubt? 23 A: Well, naturally. She made a 24 statement one time that she was not going to pass away 25 until -- until all of her boys got home; that's was a --
611 my -- my -- my -- second, next to me was still -- still 2 overseas because he got wounded in the -- in the -- was 3 going through the war, he got wounded in the back. 4 Q: All right. And on the picture on the 5 screen behind you, Cliff, that looks to me like maybe a 6 young Clifford George. It's under tab 16. 7 A: That was when I just come back from 8 overseas, that -- that was with my grandmother at her 9 place and -- and Kettle Point in her garden. 10 Q: Okay. And the car in the background, 11 do you know who that belonged to? 12 A: I don't -- I don't recall whose Olds 13 car it was. I know it wasn't mine. 14 Q: All right. I understand you did buy 15 a car, though, from working at the basket factory at some 16 earlier point in your life? 17 A: Well, when I first went over there 18 because things -- things were, you know, pretty cheap but 19 gas was, what, over 19 cents a gallon and cars were 20 cheap. So, I befriended this -- this salesman and he 21 sold me a -- a 1927 Ford Coupe for seventeen dollars 22 ($17). And he even filled the tank for me. So, that 23 was -- that was my transportation until -- til -- you 24 know, for quite a few years. 25 And previous to going overseas I -- I had
621 a 1929 Ford Roadster. We getting up with -- and I -- I 2 practically give that to a friend when I left for 3 overseas. 4 Q: So your grandma wanted to wait until 5 all of her boys came home I think -- 6 A: Before she passed away. She solemnly 7 done that. And -- and it was true, my last brother come 8 home and she was -- she passed away within -- within a 9 couple of months or so like that previous. 10 Q: Your brother Kenneth came home at 11 some point after you. I think you said you were the 12 first one? 13 A: Yes, I was the first one and he -- 14 his outfit involved in anti tank regiment that he was in 15 Italy with and when he come home -- they were -- they 16 were celebrating of course in Guelph and he said the heck 17 with this, I'm going to head for home, so, he hitchhiked 18 from there, you know, got -- and starting and that and 19 met him another evening or afternoon and when he got to - 20 - when he got to Stoney Point where his mom was I guess - 21 - he was shell shocked in Italy, he was in bad shape. He 22 was just on medications and some time elapsed and he got 23 shell shocked. 24 So, when -- when he got there, to where -- 25 where his home was, he looked around and found that it
631 was -- it was a barracks and he couldn't understand and 2 he lost it again on account of, you know, where -- where 3 am I now. 4 So, what he done he walked a little ways 5 down the road down there and he slept in the ditch for 6 the rest of the night because he didn't know where to go, 7 didn't know what to do about this. But he recovered by 8 morning when -- when he looked around and then he 9 suddenly realized this is Stoney Point, my home and it is 10 now a barracks and then all the recollection come back to 11 him and so he walked the rest of the ways to Kettle Point 12 to my grandmother's. 13 Q: He would have been in uniform? 14 A: Yes, yes, he was. 15 Q: I understand, Cliff, that you had, 16 together with your brothers had sought to see the grave 17 site of your mother? 18 A: Pardon? 19 Q: I understand that together with your 20 brothers you wanted to visit your mother's grave site? 21 A: When we all come back we had to ask 22 for permission to go to the grave site -- 23 Q: Can you tell us about that. 24 A: -- to -- to go visit the - visit the 25 grave sites and mostly for my mother and then beside
641 there was three (3) youngsters, that were -- that were 2 buried there. 3 Q: Three (3) of your younger siblings? 4 A: No, they -- they -- they died on -- 5 on a big epidemic of cholera and stuff like that, 6 whatever it was anyway. So there was three -- three 7 younger people than what I already mentioned at that 8 time, so we -- we were quite a -- we were quite a big 9 family to start off with. I didn't want to name them 10 all, because, you know, it doesn't -- doesn't give 11 anybody a chance. 12 But that -- that's the way it was. So we 13 -- we went -- we went there, and then it was absolute 14 devastation to see the -- the mess that -- that the 15 gravesite was. We couldn't even tell where my mother was 16 buried, we just had an idea where she was buried, because 17 at that time, nobody, not very many people afforded 18 headstone. 19 But there were a headstone there for some, 20 and it was all pot marked with rifle marks and -- and 21 there was bandoleers of -- of shells just hung over the 22 posts and stuff like that there, blanks of course, you 23 know, where they're playing soldier. 24 And on top of that, they were -- they were 25 supposed to be out of bounds after that, to that -- to
651 that Cemetery. And there was -- there was trenches dug 2 where they were -- where they were playing soldier, right 3 in our gravesite, and that. 4 That's what -- that's what, you know, made 5 it real -- real bad for us, you know. And -- and there 6 used to be at, when we left, top the -- top the mound 7 there, I guess I show you sometimes. There was a white 8 picket fence around there when I left, right around about 9 half-way down, and that's where all the dignitaries were 10 buried up there, like clan mothers and Chiefs and stuff 11 like that. There was a white picket fence around there 12 where -- where -- where there's no gates, because us kids 13 weren't allowed to go in there. 14 That was all devastated, there was no -- 15 there was no picket fence and then the -- the -- the what 16 stones there were moved and stuff like that, so... 17 It was -- it was a horrible mess when -- 18 when dad -- when dad himself wrote to me, he says, don't 19 worry about the gravesite, they're supposed to keep it. 20 Q: They didn't keep it, did they? 21 A: No, no, they didn't, they never did. 22 It was a mess. Because they even fired at it with their 23 rifles, I can see that in the stones, you know, in 24 different places there, it was all pot marked with -- 25 with rifle...
661 Q: You were with your brothers, 2 Kenneth -- 3 A: I had two (2) brothers. 4 Q: -- Kenneth and Clarence? 5 A: Yes. Good hardened soldiers crying, 6 crying our eyes out, that's the way I -- that's the way I 7 -- I told the people there, you know, that's a shame, you 8 know, what they've done to -- and we -- we only had just 9 a rough idea where my mother was buried. 10 It -- it -- it was bad for us, coming home 11 from overseas after thinking that we helped the war out, 12 and I always say to myself, I found all my enemies when I 13 got home. 14 Q: Compared to when you got home, how 15 was army life? 16 A: Well, army life, well, when -- it 17 carried on as -- as usual, because -- because we were all 18 -- we're, you know, we're all brothers and brothers in -- 19 in the services, because there was no discrimination, no 20 nothing. And then -- and then come home and find that 21 there still exists an awful pile of discrimination and 22 stuff. 23 When we were starting to have a family, 24 that was in Forest, I -- I had the notion that -- that -- 25 that, well we both did, we wanted to move to Kettle
671 Point. I went as -- I knew the Indian Agent would be 2 there, and I went there, I hitchhiked there and I told 3 him that -- that I want a piece of land to build a home 4 on, because at that time there was a -- a little money 5 available. 6 And little -- little did I know that -- 7 that -- that we -- we're -- we, as Natives, were only 8 given two thousand two hundred dollars ($2,200) for rehab 9 money, to build a home again. Every other soldier was 10 given five thousand five hundred dollars ($5,500). 11 And -- and -- but me, I never even 12 collected any of that, because when I went to see the -- 13 the Indian Agent, he definitely -- he definitely swore at 14 me, and he said, he's not bringing that White woman to 15 this God-forsaken Reserve which will never see hydro, 16 will never see phones, will never see inside plumbing, no 17 sir, you're not going to get no land. 18 Q: So you were denied a property -- 19 A: Denied some property. 20 Q: -- at Kettle Point. 21 A: So put an awful guilt trip on me, so, 22 I was heading out the door in -- in the council chambers 23 and he said, Just wait a minute -- I don't know whether 24 he called me Mr. George or Clifford, don't remember. 25 But he said, Just wait a minute. So he says, I'll tell
681 you what I'll do, I'll get you some money for a down 2 payment on a house in Forest where you belong. 3 So, I just -- I just went home and I was 4 too ashamed to even tell my wife so. So, anyway about a 5 -- about a month later I had a notice that come and -- 6 come and get your cheque. So, I got one of my friends to 7 drive me to -- drive me to Sarnia where his office was 8 and they hand me an envelope. I never opened it until I 9 got near home - a big four hundred dollars ($400) for a 10 down payment on a house. 11 Q: Do you know where that four hundred 12 dollars ($400) came from? 13 A: No, I don't. It -- well, I did find 14 out later. I sold my rights as an Indian and I didn't 15 know it. 16 Q: You were enfranchised. 17 A: About -- about another -- about 18 another month or so later I got this -- a special letter 19 from Ottawa and inside it was a blue card and they said 20 you can use this anywhere, you are now a white man. So, 21 I sold my rights and my wife's rights for four hundred 22 dollars ($400). 23 Q: And you were unaware of that? 24 A: No, I was absolutely unaware of what 25 they done to me. And I found out just within the last
691 few years, they were supposed to give each and every one 2 (1) of us four (4) acres of land to build on but -- but 3 that's another -- that's another reason. If Stoney Point 4 had of been there, I would have got it. As a matter of 5 fact, my mother -- my mother had property there, they had 6 open -- of course, she had open property five (5) -- five 7 (5) acres, I could have built there. 8 And they would have given me four (4) 9 acres of land too because there was still -- still lots 10 of opening there for -- how it worked was this -- when 11 you got married or when you become twenty-one (21), 12 you're allowed to apply for land or bush, four (4) acres 13 and that's -- that's -- that's how it worked and that's 14 how some of the -- some of the discrepancies that shows 15 up here on the -- on their findings that how did they get 16 the, you know, these -- and there was -- there was quite 17 a few Kettle Pointers that -- that had property on the... 18 But I already had my land picked up, I was 19 going be -- I was going to take my four (4) acres right 20 next to the Park there but it never happened. 21 Q: So, you didn't get the benefits 22 that -- 23 A: I even have got the benefits of that 24 -- I did get a little rehab, just a few hundred dollars 25 for clothing and then furniture, I spent it all in that
701 way. But the -- but the original amount to build a home 2 and -- and have property to build a little home was two 3 thousand two hundred dollars ($2,200), so, I just lost 4 it. 5 Q: You never got the benefits you were 6 entitled to -- 7 A: No. 8 Q: -- as a returning war veteran? 9 A: No, never. 10 Q: You never got the benefits that you 11 would have been entitled to as a prisoner of war? 12 A: No. 13 Q: You were enfranchised involuntarily? 14 A: Yes. I'm not the only one, there 15 was -- when I was -- when I was -- when we moved into 16 Stoney Point in '93, there was a lady going through, she 17 started from one end of the -- well, you might as well 18 say Nova Scotia and she visited reservations, she told 19 me, she stopped at my little shack that I -- that I -- I 20 bought a trailer and then I put an addition to it in the 21 bush to get away from the deals and, of course, everybody 22 around here knows Uncle Cliff's cabin. 23 Q: We'll come to that. 24 A: So anyway -- anyway that's -- that's 25 what -- that's what happened, you know, but -- that I was
711 denied all that. 2 Q: You never got your entitlement of 3 land at Stoney Point? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And you never got the inheritance 6 from your parents of the land at Stoney Point? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You were denied land at Kettle Point 9 because of your -- 10 A: Because I didn't have -- 11 Q: -- enfranchisement -- 12 A: -- they didn't have any land there to 13 give away. It was a -- they would have to buy land from 14 -- which -- which -- all these people here, there's a lot 15 of people here that their parents had to buy land from -- 16 from other -- from other natives when they were pushed 17 over to Kettle Point because all the spaces were -- were 18 already called for. There was all taken -- taken up. 19 And this was -- these people had to -- had to sell parts 20 of their -- parts of their own properties. 21 So these -- so -- so the Stoney Pointers 22 could build on it -- build homes on it, the ones that 23 didn't, didn't. And what happened -- what happened to 24 these people that weren't registered as Natives, they -- 25 they just disappeared, and that's where some of this
721 corruption comes -- comes from -- from the total amount 2 of people that are there. 3 There's a lot of -- lot of families there 4 that lived there that didn't belong there, so that's -- 5 that's the term they used to use, you don't belong, I was 6 one (1) of them. 7 So, in 1943 I think my father wrote to me 8 and he says, we are now members of the Band, so that that 9 is -- I think it was '43 when they -- when they took 10 everybody, because there was quite a few people that were 11 not members, like the Henrys and us Georges. And then 12 there's you know, quite a few of us there that weren't 13 members. And we were always reminded of it, you don't 14 belong. 15 So, we had to grow up with that. Even 16 though I had a lot of friends, I had a lot of friends 17 there. 18 Q: Mmm hmm. 19 A: So it was a little -- it was a little 20 hard on us to ,you know, to -- to have that. And then 21 just recently, like I told you before, just recently I've 22 -- we found out when we're -- when we were going through 23 this deal, that -- that the Indian Agents were given 24 complete authority to look after us veterans, which they 25 never told us at all.
731 Never once did we -- that we were told 2 that the Indian Agents are going to go and look after 3 yous, instead of the -- instead of the army, they never 4 did. 5 And that is -- that is why they started 6 using with us like they used rest of the Natives. 7 Q: Okay, so you didn't have any dealings 8 with Veteran's Affairs on returning home? 9 A: Not too much, we had some, you know, 10 some little things, you know, the -- 11 Q: And the Indian Agent that you dealt 12 with, do you recall his name? 13 A: Yes, Mr. McCracken was -- was the 14 Indian Agent then at that time. And then they eventually 15 they dispersed of the Indian Agents and then -- today. 16 Q: And as a result of being denied these 17 benefits that you were otherwise entitled to, what was 18 your life like, Cliff? 19 A: Well, we just -- we just went, you 20 know, we had to go on -- go on with life, gosh we had to 21 live and stuff like that, so it went on for many years, 22 until -- until all across Canada we started getting 23 together again. 24 And that was when -- when they put 25 pressure on the -- on the Government about restitutions
741 for that money we should have got, what had amounted by 2 this time to four hundred and fifty thousand dollars 3 ($450,000) each counting -- 4 Q: Did you get that? 5 A: -- counting everything, our educated 6 people told us that. And here just -- just within the 7 last what -- within the last few years, four (4) -- four 8 (4) or five (5) years ago, they offered us twenty 9 thousand dollars ($20,000) a piece, take it or leave it. 10 And most of us veterans didn't, not only 11 on the Reserve, but all across -- all across at least 12 Ontario that I know of, and -- and across -- and we 13 weren't even told that what it was for they just said 14 we're giving you this twenty dollars (sic) ($20), take it 15 or leave it, but you're not -- you're not ever to try to 16 get any more money out of us. 17 And they never once mentioned that this 18 was the monies that -- that they never paid us that the 19 rest -- rest of the veterans got. 20 Q: And you mean aboriginal veterans, 21 Indian veterans? 22 A: Well, we're the ones that never got 23 it. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: But all the rest got five thousand
751 five hundred dollars ($5,500). 2 Q: I understand that after you returned 3 home and were residing in Forest, that you took a job at 4 the Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash? 5 A: Yes, there was a -- there was a deal 6 out that they wanted -- they wanted a caretaker there, 7 that was 1948, I applied for it and got it, and by that 8 time, 1949 I guess, as a matter of fact my -- my youngest 9 daughter was born there. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Kind of in the base, so she's a full 12 fledged Native. 13 Q: A full fledged Stoney Pointer then? 14 A: Yeah, she's a Stoney Pointer. 15 Q: So what -- 16 A: But the pay was so small I couldn't 17 keep two (2) -- two (2) small children and myself there 18 because my pay again was only -- was only two thousand 19 two hundred dollars ($2,200) a year, and we tried to live 20 on that, because I thought -- you know, I thought, gees, 21 I'm going to step into a good job here. 22 And I had to scrounge around for the rest 23 of the deal, and it was lucky that -- that the army used 24 to come on their weekend excursions you know, and they 25 left -- they left me with the rest of their -- their food
761 that they didn't use, otherwise we'd have starved to 2 death there. So, I didn't last there two (2) years and I 3 -- I moved on. 4 Q: Where did you go, Cliff? 5 A: I went to Sarnia. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: We went all over and then it was into 8 Sarnia when I -- when I decided that the money was pretty 9 good then, back in the services again, and that at that 10 time it was a lot better than when we were living for -- 11 for a dollar ten ($1.10) a day, and they upped us to a 12 dollar fifty ($1.50) a day. 13 So, the pay was better, and we were all 14 looked after a little better. So -- so I joined the 15 services again and I went to Korea. 16 Q: And how long did you serve in Korea? 17 A: Well, that was '53 when I rejoined 18 the services again, and it was earlier -- or it was that 19 year that we moved over there in -- in the war. The war 20 was over with for -- for that, we were just peacekeepers 21 and all the Canadians were sent back home in 1955. And I 22 come with them, and I was stationed in the East Coast 23 with the -- with the regiment. 24 Q: And your wife and children? 25 A: My wife and children by that time was
771 -- they had a chance to go to -- go back to England, my - 2 - my kids went -- went to school there for -- for a 3 season, while I was overseas in Korea, so -- so it worked 4 out quite well, I met them in -- in Halifax and then by 5 that time I had a little -- I had a little shack rented, 6 near the base in -- in Debert (phonetic). 7 We lived there until 1956 and I had 8 decided to leave the army, but then I changed my mind, I 9 just come to London. And I said I don't want to get out 10 of the services, I want to stay, so I trans -- I just 11 transferred and they allowed me, because I was still on 12 leave. 13 Q: Mmm hmm. 14 A: So, I -- I put up with it for another 15 -- another three (3) years. So it was 1959 when I 16 finally got out of the services complete. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: After 1959, Cliff, I gather you came 21 back to this area, back to your home area? 22 A: Yes, I did. Naturally I come back to 23 Forest. 24 Q: Okay. And what was life like, was 25 there -- was there changes?
781 A: Well, I don't know, there was some 2 changes, with the -- with the -- there was -- work was no 3 better by that time. 4 So I worked again for -- for quite a few 5 years at minimum wage in the Forest Basket Company again, 6 and... 7 Q: All right. Was there any -- any 8 movement at that time to try to have the land returned 9 back, as was promised, according to your father. That 10 after the war would be over, the land would be returned 11 to you? 12 A: Charlie Saukeen (phonetic) was the 13 chief for -- for quite a while, and he's -- he's the one 14 that really -- that really pressured everyone, but since 15 -- since the new chief took over, he -- he kind of -- 16 kind of didn't bother with it. But he did -- he did do a 17 lot for us, he got us -- he got us quite a bit of money, 18 the elders, the Chief now, Tom Bressette. 19 Q: I see. You mentioned -- 20 A: But never -- but never once did he 21 mention about the -- about the problems that we have in 22 Stoney Point, because for some reason he -- he was 23 against the Stoney Point as a matter of fact -- 24 Q: Mmm hmm. 25 A: -- because he was on APTN when they
791 interview chiefs every year -- every Sunday, and he -- he 2 was talking to this guy and he was telling about all that 3 he accomplished in Kettle Point. And this guy kept 4 asking him, is there any problems anywhere else? You 5 know, giving him a chance to say this, he never once 6 mentioned Stoney Point. 7 So -- so that built a little grudge 8 against him for me, regardless, you know. Never once did 9 he say, yes, we have -- we haven't got our land back yet, 10 and yet he claimed -- he claims Stoney and Kettle as one 11 (1), and yet he never mentioned that Stoney Point was -- 12 was one (1) of us. 13 As a matter of fact, I found out later 14 that 1972 was when they made Stoney Kettle and that was 15 wrong of them by the government and by Kettle Point 16 because there was no such thing as Stoney Point at that 17 time. It was army based on the -- still army base at 26. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: I was told of that from -- from 20 Ottawa themselves that told me this. 21 Q: I'm sorry, you started off by saying 22 Skawkence was the chief? 23 A: Yes, he -- it was mentioned here that 24 he -- he done a -- he done a lot of work on the -- when 25 Chretien was -- was an Indian, you know, at that time.
801 He went at them to get that reserve back but they all 2 found -- found ways to deal around it. 3 And what happened was it wasn't mentioned 4 here that the whole -- the whole society went against, 5 they wanted -- they wanted to keep the -- they wanted to 6 keep the camp there because cadets were already in there 7 and it was from the Thedford mayor and then Forest mayor 8 and then all the dignitaries and right clean to Sarnia, 9 they said, What and earth are we going to do because our 10 -- our deal is that we give up -- we give up the camp 11 when it's no longer necessary or in need. 12 So, that's -- that's why -- that's why 13 today we are still fighting for -- for... 14 Q: So your -- your recollection is that 15 the surrounding communities were not in favour of 16 having -- 17 A: Oh, no, no, they still aren't. They 18 still -- they still maintain that it should have been -- 19 that's Bosanquet township mostly and -- as a matter of 20 fact, Bosanquet township is getting their rent money from 21 -- from the army for that piece of property that's 22 supposed to be ours. They are getting rent paid. 23 That was just a recent findings too, that 24 probably -- and not too many people knew. 25 Q: You had mentioned earlier, Mr.
811 George, you had a bit of a tickle in your throat, I 2 wonder if this might -- 3 A: I'm okay, I took some medication. 4 Q: Oh, you did, okay. 5 A: And it wasn't alcohol. 6 Q: I guess I asked for that one. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know we've 8 already had one (1) break but if you wanted to take 9 another one some time this morning, before lunch, that 10 would be all right, I'm sure. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: I think perhaps maybe 12 now would be a good time, if we could maybe take a ten 13 (10) minute -- 14 THE WITNESS: You're the boss. 15 MR. DONALD WORME: I like this man. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 17 take another break now. We'll give you another rest, 18 another break. 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 10:55 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 11:10 a.m. 25
821 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 5 Q: Cliff, you've already told us that 6 the land has been very important, not only to you but, in 7 fact, I think you said to your people. 8 A: Yes, we're very -- very love for our 9 land. That's why we're put on this earth. You are the 10 keepers of the land, the creator told us, when we're put 11 on this -- on this earth. 12 And it's -- it's not like -- like, well 13 here that we've come from Adam. I don't think we did. I 14 think we're put in here for a special purpose and that's 15 why we're so spiritual in our way of living, how we deal 16 with things and -- and how we deal with each other. 17 Q: And at some point in time, you began 18 to take an active role in seeking the return of the 19 Stoney Point land? 20 A: Yes, we did way -- way before '93 I 21 was living in Sarnia then, Point Eldridge (phonetic) as a 22 matter of fact. I was living there when -- when Maynard 23 and his sisters start coming to see me about what are 24 doing to -- to -- to get this back, because nobody is 25 doing anything about it.
831 And -- and that's how we started. We 2 start talking, we start talking with other people, we got 3 involved and we talk about it and then we -- we decided 4 to -- to take the -- take the -- just go and occupy the 5 land, without weapons, without anything. 6 Do it -- do it the way we should. And -- 7 and we done it that way. We -- we just broke a fence 8 down and moved in. There was a few of us with pup tents 9 and stuff like that. We lived there for -- for a little 10 while. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Until we got situated. 13 Q: Let me -- 14 A: And then -- 15 Q: Let me just interrupt you, if I may, 16 briefly. You had said "Maynard would come around" to -- 17 to -- 18 A: Yeah, the Maynard guy. He was -- he 19 was very, very helpful at the start -- start -- start of 20 the occupation. He was very helpful with the -- with the 21 way he -- he -- he helped us with a lot of archives work, 22 he went down there week at a time to Toronto, no, I mean 23 to Ottawa, to get some of these archives. 24 So he was very good at that time. 25 Q: And this is Maynard T George, I --
841 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- understand? 3 A: Yes, Maynard T George or something 4 like that. 5 Q: And you mentioned his sisters. 6 A: And his sisters. 7 Q: And who would those be? 8 A: Well, his -- his -- his sister that 9 was mainly there was Janet. 10 Q: I understand that a meeting took 11 place at the Army Barracks at some point in early 1990? 12 A: Yeah, I -- I -- I forget who -- who 13 was instrumental to that one. I know it wasn't -- it 14 wasn't Maynard but -- at the first there because there 15 was a quite a few natives from other Reserves were there 16 and -- and were allowed to go right in the Barracks there 17 and -- and -- enter the Barracks on the east end of the 18 first row. 19 We met there. There was several of us -- 20 several of us that met there that day, either Saturday or 21 Sunday, I just forget now. 22 And we had a little meeting there, about, 23 you know. I think it was just a test to see if they're 24 going to let -- let us in there, and they did. 25 Q: And you said you had permission to be
851 there. Who -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- provided that permission? 4 A: Well, it would be the Camp Commander. 5 They'd have to go to the Camp Commander and ask them if 6 it's -- if we would stay there and have a meeting there. 7 Q: And are you aware as to how this 8 permission was obtained? 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: Okay. Do you recall who might have 11 been at this meeting? I gather you were there? 12 A: I was there, there were several of us 13 there. The main one I -- I remember was -- was -- before 14 he passed away, was -- was Dan George, 'cause I was 15 talking to him in his car there and I talked to him there 16 for a while. 17 At that first little gate is a lot -- lot 18 of us come in that first little gate in the middle of the 19 field. It was the one -- 20 So, there were several of us. There was - 21 - I met people there from -- from Munyonzwe and then 22 there was a -- there was quite a few other -- other 23 people there. 24 But I just forget what -- what the drift 25 of the -- the deal was about. I think mostly just to
861 find out, you know, if -- if it was feasible to -- to get 2 -- to get into the Camp without causing problems. 3 Q: You mentioned earlier that the 4 objective was to -- did you use the word "occupy the 5 land"? 6 A: Well, that -- I don't -- that was the 7 start of -- of -- of -- of us talking about why don't we 8 -- why don't we just go and occupy the land for ourselves 9 because nobody's doing anything about it. 10 So there was a handful of us that -- that 11 got together and -- and -- and eventually we all -- all 12 the Stoney Point people and there were everybody joined 13 in and -- and we -- we legally occupied it, because we -- 14 we sent a letter to the Camp Commander, he -- he came out 15 there, right in front of the gate there, we had a meeting 16 there, we had the Veterans from -- from Munyonzwe to come 17 down and -- and help us. It was all organized by -- by 18 us people. 19 So we're all there in the front gate, and 20 he came out and accepted the letter that -- that we are 21 going to occupy the land. 22 Q: Okay. You mentioned the name, Dan 23 George; how are you related to him, if at all? 24 A: Well, he's -- he's got several of his 25 relatives here, but -- but was a distant Uncle, or a
871 distant Cousin. Just like Tom George, he's -- he's a 2 brother of Tom George that went overseas with me. He's 3 from the Robert Georg -- Robert George family, a Senior 4 from that family. And I'm from that -- I'm from the Bill 5 George. 6 Q: I see. In -- following that meeting, 7 you had mentioned earlier to us that it was decided that 8 eventually you would simply move in, you had removed part 9 of a fence; was that your evidence? 10 A: Yes, the -- the -- the fence was very 11 loosely made, and then we just pushed it down and -- and 12 we -- we held the wires down to let the -- let the ladies 13 in and -- and we all -- we all -- we occupied. We didn't 14 let the Camp Commander know, at that time, but we did 15 eventually send him a letter, that we were occupying. 16 Q: Did you receive any response from 17 this letter from -- 18 A: I -- I -- I can't recall. 19 Q: Okay. We have, up on -- on the 20 board, just to your right, an aerial photograph, -- 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-19. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: It's marked as P-19 in these 25 Proceedings. I wonder if you can make that out at all,
881 Cliff? If I -- if I suggest to you that the top middle 2 area is in fact the area that is marked off as Camp 3 Ipperwash? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Oh, I see, I see, yes, I see Camp 8 Ipperwash there now. 9 Q: You can see the, what's know as the 10 built-up area, I think you have your finger on it...? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And can you point to the are where 13 you would have went in? 14 A: We -- we went in there. At first -- 15 the first meeting was right in here. 16 Q: You're pointing just immediately 17 adjacent to the built-up area, or the actual barracks 18 area? 19 A: No, the -- the -- yeah, the -- the 20 actual barracks, right in there, right in there is where 21 we first had had our first meeting. There's -- there's 22 about three (3), four (4) acres there of -- of land. 23 And in our second occupation, we moved in 24 completely, was -- was just -- just over in here. He 25 told us that we -- we didn't tear it down, we just pushed
891 it down and we went in and we -- we -- we had little pup 2 tents and stuff like that, to occupy there, and it was 3 from that time on. 4 And we had organized and -- and we -- we 5 elected a Chief, and we elected Councilors, and which I - 6 - I happened to be -- be one at the time, but -- but we 7 decided we'd -- we'd give everybody a chance to -- to 8 Council and talk, so... 9 Q: All right. And just for the record 10 today, you indicated where you went in to be an area -- 11 now, unfortunately I'm directionally challenged, is that 12 the -- east of the barracks, adjacent to Highway 21? 13 A: Yes, that -- that's even -- that's 14 even east of -- east of that there -- that Creek that 15 runs through there. There's a Creek that runs through 16 there and, that's, I don't know if it's marked here or 17 not anymore, where the -- where this, I can't find it at 18 all, there's a -- there's a Creek that runs right -- 19 right here, I think, just -- just adjacent at this 20 property. 21 There's a Creek that runs -- that runs 22 through there, and it was there, and then there's another 23 Creek, what they call Mud Creek, that's where -- that's 24 where we moved right in. We occupied on this side of it, 25 all of us at one time, and we -- we officially came in
901 right here at the end of the gate there -- 2 Q: I wonder if you could just turn the 3 diagram a bit so Mr. Commissioner can see that. If you 4 wouldn't mind, again, Cliff, just indicating... 5 A: I've got to find it for you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I also want 7 the Reporter to be able to pick up what he says. She 8 says she can, but... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 THE WITNESS: See, this is why we 13 originally, after the meeting here, we put the fence down 14 and we -- we moved in somewhere -- somewhere around -- 15 around here, and then eventually... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 THE WITNESS: Eventually -- eventually we 20 -- there's a gate there at the end of the -- the camp, 21 right there. We got one (1) link of chain and locked in 22 officially. 23 There was quite a few of us there, there 24 was at least fifty (50) or sixty (60) of us there at the 25 time, and we were all on the highway, then -- then the
911 Chief -- elected Chief at that time cut the -- cut the 2 fence and the -- the chain, and that's the only thing we 3 -- we destroyed, was that one (1) link of chain, and we 4 walked right in officially, and then we -- we officially 5 told the camp manager that we are occupying officially. 6 All right. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 9 Q: All right, thank you. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Did that help, Mr. 11 Sandler? 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes, thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 14 I heard that in his evidence, what year was that or when 15 was that -- 16 MR. DONALD WORME: I don't think he'd 17 made that -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, okay. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: -- that comment yet, 20 Mr. Commissioner, but certainly I can ask. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 23 Q: When was that, Cliff? When did that 24 occur, the event that you've just described for us? 25 A: That -- that has to be in the summer
921 of '93. 2 Q: All right. And why was this -- why 3 was it decided that you would take that action at that 4 particular time? 5 A: Well, we just decided that -- that we 6 were -- we were doing this peacefully, as we always have, 7 we -- we never intended to go in there like most places, 8 you know, with guns roaring and stuff like that, we 9 didn't. 10 We said we'd go in there peacefully and 11 that's what got us in there completely, because we got 12 the idea that they didn't know what to do with us, 13 because we had no weapons, and we weren't -- we weren't 14 looking for trouble, except that we were there to occupy 15 our own lands. 16 Q: All right, so you went in initially 17 and you talked about pup tents and such? 18 A: Yes, well everybody brought their 19 little pup tents on and we all headed on there, and then 20 -- then after we -- after we broke that -- that chain and 21 walked in officially, then I bought a trailer and then -- 22 and we all did, they weren't going to allow us yet, but 23 there were several gates along that way down there, and 24 we just -- we just pulled our trailers in there and 25 started occupying.
931 Q: And where did you -- where did you 2 situate your trailer? 3 A: I -- I mainly -- mainly my first -- 4 the first time in my trailer alone, I moved into my 5 mother's five (5) acres of clear land there, right -- 6 right beside the -- where I originally moved into the 7 bush, there's five (5) acres of clear land there that 8 belonged to my -- part of my mother's forty (40) acres. 9 Q: All right. Did you move from there 10 at any point? 11 A: Well, getting fall and winter coming, 12 I decided it was a little too -- little too breezy there 13 for me to be living there, so I moved to where Uncle 14 Cliff's Cabin was made, and I put structures up there, I 15 built onto that trailer, and put a wood stove in there 16 and everything, you know, that I needed, and it worked 17 out all right. 18 Q: Did you have satellite television? 19 I'm kidding. I understand you didn't have running water 20 there? 21 A: No, I went to Forrest to get it. At 22 that time I was a little reluctant to use the camp water, 23 because although they were still using it, I said no way 24 you're going to get me to use that water, but that has 25 been -- it hasn't been used all that much, you know,
941 over the -- over the few years, except for Cadet camps 2 and the -- and the people that occupied that there, so 3 usually just two (2) or three (3) permanent army that -- 4 that drove around all the time and looked after it. 5 Q: I think many of us are familiar with 6 the term you used, Uncle Cliff's Cabin, that was a sign 7 on your -- on your house, on your home? 8 A: Everybody knew where Uncle Cliff's 9 Cabin was, even the trucks going by, they used to honk at 10 me early in the morning, and they all knew about Uncle 11 Cliff's Cabin, because I was asked by the police, Why did 12 you call this Uncle Cliff's cabin? I said because you 13 people are using me just like you did Uncle Tom. There 14 was no more questions. 15 Q: What was the relationship with the 16 army? Were -- were there still soldiers training on -- 17 on that -- 18 A: No, cadets were but -- but in the 19 summertime -- in the summertime there was instructors and 20 stuff like that at that time so -- so it's -- one (1) 21 year after they occupied was -- was the last occupation 22 they had of -- of cadets. 23 They already had an agreement with the -- 24 with the army personnel that -- that we wouldn't go 25 beyond that first creek that I -- I mentioned there.
951 There's a bridge there that -- beyond that we said we 2 wouldn't -- we wouldn't go into the camp and push the 3 other -- so we didn't bother them at all, we come in our 4 own roads. 5 Q: All right. And I gather you got along 6 with them? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And by them, I mean the army? 9 A: Yes, I -- I -- I got along with the 10 them all the time myself. They used to stop and talk to 11 me and they were regular force and -- and they -- you 12 know -- they knew that I'd been quite a time in the -- in 13 the army myself. 14 Q: So they would recognize you as a 15 fellow serviceman? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: A veteran? 18 A: Mostly. Or as a friendly old Indian 19 or whatever. But where -- where -- where some of -- 20 where some of this started -- where some of this started 21 -- was my -- my -- my dear friend, Dudley. He didn't 22 like them and -- and gave them a rough time every time 23 when they just drove by with their vehicle. 24 There was usually two (2) of them or three 25 (3) of them drive by to make the rounds all around in
961 there -- down there and of course he'd give them the 2 finger all the time and -- and curse and swear at them. 3 So this -- this one (1) -- one (1) 4 sergeant major stopped and -- and he was laughing when he 5 told me. He says, You know what I done to Dudley? I 6 said, No, what? He says, He was giving me the finger and 7 I rolled the window down and I said, Hey, Dudley come 8 here and he says, You don't have to tell us we're number 9 1, we know we're number 1, and Dudley got mad and whirled 10 around and went into -- into his place. 11 So that was -- you know, just some of the 12 funny things, but Dudley was very verbal about some of 13 these things. 14 Q: We're given to understand he felt 15 strongly about the land as did you and as did others. 16 A: Well, we all did. We're all -- we're 17 all descendants of -- of -- I myself and I think there 18 was Pearl and -- and I think Rose Manning (phonetic), 19 that -- that lived there for a while but she hurt -- she 20 got herself into trouble because she demolished one (1) 21 of the buildings and -- and it wasn't -- wasn't good at 22 all on her part so -- so that is why she was asked to 23 leave. 24 She was causing trouble as far as I know. 25 I didn't know any of that myself because I pretty well
971 kept to myself in -- in my own little shack. But that 2 was the reason why -- why they were -- she was asked to 3 leave. 4 Q: And I understand that you had spent 5 quite a bit of time at -- at what you've told us is -- 6 was coined Uncle Cliff's cabin. How -- how long did you 7 spend there? 8 A: I don't know, must have been about -- 9 right until -- right until maybe a year or two (2) after 10 Dudley was shot. I lived in that little cabin. Because 11 when when they -- when they finally took over the camp 12 itself, I wouldn't go because I said I've seen too much 13 of army barracks life. You wouldn't get me in there. So 14 I stayed in my own little shack and so did Dudley. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: We -- 17 Q: Where was -- where was he living in 18 relation to you? 19 A: Just down the road from me. We -- we 20 had -- we had bought or -- or it was given to us -- a 21 nice trailer and he was so happy that we decided to give 22 it to him because it was the first home he ever owned. 23 Q: I see. 24 A: And he was very proud of it. So he -- 25 he lived -- he lived there because we were the only ones
981 that were in the -- in the, like, were previous to -- to 2 moving into the camp they used to come home to -- to 3 Kettle Point, all the rest of them. Him and I were the 4 only ones there occupying. There was a little doubt 5 about it but I proved to them that we were, you know, the 6 only two (2) that were occupying there all -- all winter 7 long. 8 Q: And what was that winter like? 9 A: Normal, but I had lots of wood and I 10 had a good stove for it and -- and so did he and I would 11 light that. They did -- they did come during the day 12 time, and cut wood for me and split wood for me and so 13 on. So -- 14 Q: All right, you had frequent visitors 15 there? 16 A: Oh, yeah. 17 Q: And Dudley would have had visitors as 18 well? 19 A: Yeah, sure. Family always come in 20 there pretty near -- pretty near daily, come and visit 21 them, but -- but at nights and weekends we were the only 22 ones there. 23 Q: Okay, and you would have visited back 24 and forth with him? 25 A: Well, periodically, yeah, he'd come
991 walking down the road and we'd visit, and we had lots of 2 -- many good visits there, you know. 3 Q: How are you related to Dudley George? 4 A: In what way? 5 Q: Well, you were -- 6 A: As a friend? 7 Q: Well, did you have -- did you have 8 blood relations, is what I'm getting at first thing? 9 A: Well -- well let's see, like I say, 10 he was a -- he was a -- he was on -- on the Robert George 11 family and I was on the Bill George family and they were 12 first cousins, Bill George and Robert George and the 13 family -- family, that's how close we were. 14 Q: I see. 15 A: Distant cousins. 16 Q: Okay. And you were certainly 17 friends, I gathered, from what you've told us? 18 A: Well -- well I was friends with all - 19 - with all them people, I get along good with them. 20 Q: All -- 21 A: I always did get along with those 22 people. 23 Q: And you still do? 24 A: I still do, sure, as far as I'm 25 concerned, I'm still friendly with all of them, and
1001 they're friendly with me and... 2 Q: You said you had sort of a -- some 3 kind of an arrangement with the army, you had indicated 4 they would go about their patrols, you would visit back - 5 - back and forth with them? 6 A: Yes, we -- we promised them that we 7 wouldn't come through the gate, through the main gate. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: To disrupt them or anything like 10 that, and that we wouldn't come near -- we -- we made an 11 arrangement that we -- we'd use different routes to -- to 12 get to where we're going, instead of going through the 13 camp. 14 So, we made that arrangement quite 15 clearly and we kept up to it, until we decided to -- to 16 take over completely the camp. 17 Q: Why was that decision made and how 18 was it made? 19 A: Well, we were there long enough, we 20 didn't have no problems, you know, and we can't all get 21 by and let half of it be gone, so -- so we decided that 22 it's time we -- time we moved on a little further. 23 Q: And how was that done, was that done 24 by way of notice, as you had on earlier occasions? 25 A: No, we just -- we just pulled in with
1011 a -- with a bus, and told them that we're -- we're 2 taking over the camp now. 3 Q: And what was the reaction? 4 A: And they -- they left -- they left 5 voluntarily, no problems, no nothing. They even -- they 6 even left -- left us a whole kitchen, complete. Of 7 course we had to ask them, gees, at least leave us that. 8 So, they took all their papers and left completely. 9 Q: I understand they left keys behind? 10 A: I -- I wouldn't know nothing -- not 11 too much about that. 12 Q: All right, instructions on operating 13 machinery, do you know anything about that? 14 A: Well, no, because I wasn't interested 15 in anything like that at that time, but other people did, 16 other people knew how to handle the water and the water 17 system and the -- and then all the systems that -- that 18 was there. 19 Q: And given your considerable service 20 in the military, you weren't at all interested in living 21 anymore in barracks? 22 A: No, no more, I said, no way I'm going 23 to go move into them. I -- I lived in them -- I lived in 24 them too long. 25 But they all did -- they all did, they --
1021 they took their own choice of the buildings and -- and 2 occupied it and lived in it. They -- they let us have 3 heat, hot water and everything. 4 I know Bosanquet Township was kicking on 5 it, but what they didn't realize is there's a -- there's 6 a deal still in there that they need hydro for -- for one 7 (1) thing -- for one (1) thing the tunnels, sometimes -- 8 sometimes they had to have a drainage, and twice a day in 9 our little lakes, that was a bit spot of water frozen 10 there, so they had to have hydro for that. 11 And -- and as I see it, they -- the 12 installation there in -- in the soccer field, that's a 13 whole big cement -- cement field that opens up to the -- 14 to the main entrance of it -- of it, because some of the 15 Cadets has told us that's where they went into it. And 16 incidentally that's where two (2) Cadets got shot. 17 Not -- not what they -- what they said 18 that they -- they got shot, running across a firing 19 range, well, the firing range was on -- never such -- 20 such a thing happened, and it was quashed pretty well 21 quickly. But they were shot in the back, but they claim 22 was they were running across the firing -- when firing 23 was going on. No such a thing would happen in the army. 24 We followed up where them people come 25 from, the bailiff -- the bailiff was one (1). We
1031 followed them up and then -- them two (2) young people 2 come from Windsor. 3 But that's part of the land we didn't -- 4 we didn't talk to their -- to their family or anything, 5 but that's where they come from, the two (2) young people 6 that shot. 7 Q: All right. You mentioned a Bailiff 8 that would be an individual by the name of Scott 9 Hewitt...? 10 A: Yes, he -- he was a Bailiff. 11 Q: And I understand that he was a friend 12 of yours...? 13 A: Well, -- when -- when we occupied -- 14 when we occupied there, he come there and done a lot of 15 help for us, awful lot of help, as he was -- he was with 16 us, you know, to -- to -- for what we were trying to do. 17 Q: Prior to the army pulling out, 18 leaving voluntarily I think, as you put it, we have heard 19 some evidence about an incident in the Camp in relation 20 to a helicopter...? 21 A: Well, yes, I was there -- I was there 22 then, to start off with. Three cruisers stopped right at 23 the roadway of -- right where -- right where that -- the 24 helicopter was going to come around and buzz, 'cause 25 these people are living there. Children and -- and the
1041 women went running, screaming in there, because they -- 2 they dived so low, scaring us, harassment completely. 3 And -- and that -- that -- that was when they -- that was 4 when they said they were shot at. 5 And -- and -- and Mr. Hewitt went right to 6 London the next morning, early, and looked -- looked at 7 that -- 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: Excuse me for a 9 moment. Commissioner, if I just make a comment where the 10 evidence is going at this point, and -- and by the way, 11 my comments don't reflect in the slightest upon this 12 extraordinary gentleman. 13 Given the nature of a Public Inquiry, I 14 understand that latitude has to be given to the 15 development of evidence that doesn't fall within the 16 conventional rules that would govern at a Trial. And 17 that's particularly so in the context of describing the 18 history of the First Nations and the -- and the land 19 claim, and what this gentleman's extraordinary role was 20 in dealing with those kinds of issues, and nobody could 21 take objection to that. 22 We're now getting into an area that poses 23 more significant difficulties, in my respectful 24 submission. My understanding, for example, is that this 25 gentleman wasn't present when the shooting incident
1051 occurred involving the helicopter and he was about to 2 describe what he was told by a Bailiff, about what the 3 Bailiff purportedly saw, that reflected upon whether the 4 shooting of the helicopter did or didn't occur. 5 And there are other incidents that are 6 even more significant to some of the Parties here, than 7 that particular one, and the concern I have is, I 8 understand at a Public Inquiry that the Rules of Trial do 9 not govern, but by the same token, we don't advocate all 10 the rules whatsoever. 11 And the reason for those rules is to 12 reflect upon the reliability of evidence to some degree, 13 and also to reflect upon the fact that there are Parties 14 with interests that are very much affected by what's said 15 in a Public Forum, and picked up and distributed. 16 So, I wanted to say at the outset, that I 17 am extraordinarily sensitive to the importance of 18 allowing this man's story to be told, and it is being 19 told, but by the same token, we're now into the modern 20 events that are somewhat contentious: the shooting of a 21 helicopter, how the park was occupied in the light, and 22 in a number of those incidences, this Gentleman isn't 23 there, but is told other things about other people, that 24 -- that may or may not be accurate. 25 So my submission is, that the rules that -
1061 - that would normally govern that kind of evidence, 2 should apply, in fairness to the people who are affected, 3 and that this person's narrative should be given in its 4 fullest, and his personal account of what he saw and did 5 and heard, should be developed in its fullest, and 6 otherwise the ordinary rules should apply, with great 7 respect. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 9 Mr. Sandler. 10 THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon, I am 11 telling the truth here. I was living there, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We 13 understand that, Mr. George, we're just ... 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: Can I just -- can I 15 just say one more thing, because I want Mr. George to 16 understand that, what I said, sir, is that none of this 17 is a reflection on your telling the truth. We're really 18 talking about something a little bit different now, but 19 none of this -- 20 THE WITNESS: I think, sir, I'm getting 21 too close to the truth for you. 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: No, I don't think 23 that's -- 24 THE WITNESS: That's my understanding, 25 sir.
1071 MR. MARK SANDLER: Well, I haven't 2 challenged you on it. 3 THE WITNESS: It's a little touching on - 4 - on your people, because you -- you people don't want to 5 see the truth come out, and that's what I'm here for, I'm 6 here -- I want to bring out the truth as it really 7 happened. I was living there at the time when the 8 helicopter deal went. I was living there when they come 9 to me when the shooting was on. 10 I knew all about it. I know everything 11 that happened to it because all these people that lived 12 there come and -- come and talked to me about it and -- 13 and that's at the time of the shooting. 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: And that's my point, 15 sir, because for example, this gentleman provided a 16 statement that he wasn't -- that he wasn't present at the 17 time and that there are newspaper accounts describing 18 what he knows and didn't know about it. 19 And -- and again it's not a reflection on 20 him and I know that's difficult to communicate, but it's 21 a reflection on how the process must develop in fairness 22 to everyone and not simply one party. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 24 your submission, Mr. Sandler. Mr. Worme...? 25 MR. DONALD WORME: I appreciate my
1081 friend's submissions as well, Mr. Commissioner. I would 2 draw the Commissioner's attention to the rules of 3 practice and procedure that governs these proceedings and 4 in particular under Section 3 under Evidence and 5 specifically paragraph 13 thereof and I will read that. 6 It says: 7 "Subject to Section 11 of the Public 8 Inquiry's Act, the Commission is 9 entitled to receive any relevant 10 evidence at the inquiry which might 11 otherwise be in-admissible in a court 12 of law. The strict rules of evidence 13 will not apply to determine the 14 inadmissibility of evidence." 15 My Friend wishes to take issue as 16 obviously he does with the testimony of this witness. 17 I'm -- I can only speculate that the basis upon which My 18 Friend objects to this, is that it is in the strict rules 19 of evidence categorized as hearsay. That is certainly 20 something that he would be entitled to remark upon in his 21 argument at the end of the day. 22 I would submit respectfully, sir, that 23 this witness be allowed to continue with his story, 24 notwithstanding that there are elements of it that he may 25 well not have been completely privy to, but he has
1091 nonetheless direct experience and it does impact upon 2 what he has to provide before this Commission. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Worme. I think the key word there -- I think the key 5 word is a "strict" rules of evidence. I think that we 6 recognize all of us that some latitude to the strict 7 rules of evidence is acceptable. 8 I think it's a question of degree. That 9 hearsay once or twice removed or perhaps even more 10 removed might be objectionable even under the relaxed 11 rules of an inquiry. So I urge you to continue with the 12 story, just keep in mind that when hearsay becomes 13 hearsay twice removed, it loses its credibility and 14 affectS others adversely and presents all kinds of other 15 problems. So keep that in mind. We're not bound by the 16 strict rules of evidence. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: And we will try to 18 keep that in mind, Mr. Commissioner, thank you. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: In any event, Cliff, you were -- you 22 were informed something with respect to the helicopter 23 incident? 24 A: I was -- I was there close by when -- 25 when the shooting was on at -- at -- when the diving was
1101 gone and when the police were -- were lined -- lined up 2 in there. I was present. Very close to that place. 3 The only place I was not present was -- 4 was when -- when Mr. Hewitt went to London on his own 5 and he come back with a story that -- that it was not a 6 bullet -- bullet wound that went through that helicopter. 7 It was -- it looked like a three-prong deal. You -- you 8 would notice in a pick axe and I think you can get the -- 9 get the evidence from him any time because he's willing 10 to come and testify. I know that. 11 Q: As a result of this alleged shooting, 12 certain things happened at the camp and including at -- 13 at your residence? 14 A: Yes the very next day the -- the OPP 15 walked in -- walked in on us and -- and they chased us 16 out of our homes and they went the thoroughest -- a 17 thorough digging out to see if there was any weapons 18 there. They couldn't find none and there's quite a few 19 buildings in -- from the start I could tell you all the 20 buildings that was -- that was in there including mine. 21 And there were some further -- further 22 down from me and they couldn't find one weapon of any 23 kind there. 24 Q: And just while we're on the point of 25 weapons, during the time that you moved into the area up
1111 until that particular point, had there been any weapons 2 that you might have seen among any of the people that you 3 were with? 4 A: No, we knew that -- we knew that -- 5 that -- that -- they would be -- they would be restricted 6 there. We -- we made that plain when -- when we -- when 7 we decided to walk in there and no weapons because most 8 of these people come from Kettle Point. 9 That's where they left their weapons 10 because they still hunt for a living, some of them -- 11 some places. So their -- their weapons were left here on 12 this reserve. 13 Q: At -- at Kettle Point? 14 A: At Kettle Point. Yes, Sir. 15 Q: And they would hunt on the Stoney 16 Point lands? 17 A: No, there was nobody hunting on Stoney 18 Point land. It was a -- I don't know where all it was 19 done. Some of it was done in -- in Stoney Point bush. 20 Q: All right. But it's your -- it's your 21 evidence that no weapons were maintained on the Stoney 22 Point lands by the any of people you were with? 23 A: No weapons -- no, they were -- they 24 seemed to be smart enough to leave their weapons here in 25 Kettle Point.
1121 Q: You'd mentioned when everybody moved 2 into the army barracks -- that would have been in 1995, 3 is that correct? 4 A: 1995? That was just -- just after the 5 shooting or previous to the shooting? 6 Q: Perhaps I should have asked, do you 7 know when it was that the others moved into the barracks? 8 A: I couldn't tell you exactly but it was 9 somewhere around -- somewhere around that time because -- 10 because, what happened was, when -- when they moved into 11 -- into the barracks there, like I told you before, that 12 -- that we drove a bus in there through the -- through 13 the -- through the back gate and told them that -- that 14 we're taking over the barracks as well. 15 Q: All right. You never moved into the 16 barracks? 17 A: No, I didn't. 18 Q: Was there anybody else that did not 19 move into the barracks? 20 A: Well, Dudley didn't because he had -- 21 he had his own home just down from me like I said before 22 and -- and I had my own home there and there's no way 23 you're going to get me in an army barracks. I spent too 24 much time in them. 25 Q: I understand that there were many
1131 people, that there were many groups that were sympathetic 2 to the cause and that came to the aid and assistance of 3 those at Stoney Point? 4 A: They're all sitting around here right 5 now and they're giving me support. They come from London 6 and all over the place and I've become very friendly with 7 them. 8 Different organizations, Christian 9 organizations, they're -- they're -- they all are in 10 support of us because some of them raised money through - 11 - through bingos and this and that to help us out on -- 12 on the reservations because -- because we could not draw 13 no -- no compensation -- no nothing anywhere. 14 Even a food bank refused us to -- some of 15 our people food because I come myself to -- to Forest 16 and -- and I exposed to them that they have no business 17 denying anyone, I don't care who it is, that's what the 18 food bank is for and they got very flustered. 19 Q: The United Auto Workers? 20 A: They were -- they were the first ones 21 to come and help us. They -- they took films and films 22 there. Also they -- they interviewed us and then they 23 found out that -- that we need help. They bought us 24 lumber, they bought us everything that -- that they -- 25 they fashioned -- they wanted to fashion all -- all them
1141 -- all them buildings after my building because I just 2 scrounged around and -- and -- and got enough to -- to 3 make my little -- my little shack. 4 So that -- that's what they -- they -- the 5 -- all of them people made -- they -- they -- they had 6 lumber. They had everything -- everything furnished by 7 the -- by the UAW. 8 Q: All right. On the view yesterday, 9 that all of my Friends were on, on the school bus, we had 10 an opportunity to see a number of buildings out there. 11 Were those buildings the buildings that were built with 12 this material? 13 A: Yes, I was the first one there and 14 then -- then everybody -- everybody else started moving 15 into the bush, too, and -- and built their -- their 16 little buildings there beside -- beside mine and all in 17 the same section. 18 Q: I think you told us earlier, Cliff, 19 that one of the -- that one of your recollections from 20 growing up in Stoney Point is that there was a church 21 there? As a -- as a youngster there was a church there? 22 A: Yes, there was. They're all -- 23 they're all -- all very Christian -- Christian people at 24 that time of growing up because -- because they -- 25 they're all Christianized completely.
1151 Q: And I'm also given to understand that 2 that is one of the first buildings that was subsequently 3 built? 4 A: It was in the papers all across Canada 5 that these -- these Indians had moved into the -- that 6 land. The first building that they built was a church 7 which we did, steeple and all; one of the boys was a 8 carpenter and -- and then we put a steeple on that -- on 9 that building and it was all across Canada because I 10 heard from -- from BC, Did you really do that? That's 11 your first building was a Church, which -- which it was. 12 Q: You had other friends, including 13 Church groups, as a result of that, I gather? 14 A: Yes, it was a -- it was a -- we -- we 15 had a lot of friends, a lot of support everywhere. 16 Q: University students? 17 A: Yes, University of -- of Trent -- 18 Trent University, and that's that other one, they made a 19 film on it and the London people, not Univ -- Western, 20 the other one, the college. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: I can't fetch the name of it right 23 now. 24 Q: McMaster University maybe? 25 A: No.
1161 Q: Fanshaw? 2 A: Fanshaw College, yes, sir. 3 Q: Thank you. 4 A: Thanks. Them's the people that come 5 and -- and they did a lot of work for us. And Trent 6 University people come down to support us. As a matter 7 of fact they were -- they were at the hearings in -- in 8 Sarnia. 9 They're the ones that found that they were 10 still selling part of -- part of the beachfront, 1986 was 11 the last deal that they found, they got that yet. They 12 have it, they're going to send the copies down to us, but 13 they -- they haven't yet, as we lost touch with them. 14 But they found -- they found in Sarnia, 15 sales to -- to -- to the gas company, giving them options 16 to -- to supply the beachfront with -- with their gas, 17 Union Gas was the name of the place. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: That's proven. 20 Q: Is there anything else that you can 21 tell us about that time, can you tell us what it was 22 like? 23 You had all of these people coming to your 24 newly established community? 25 A: Well, it was just good -- a good
1171 friendship the -- you know, nothing else -- not too much 2 I can tell you, because they were all friendly and in 3 support of us. 4 Q: All right, they understood your 5 philosophy of being there, and I think you've told us 6 earlier that that was peaceful and non-violent? 7 A: Yes, they -- they had -- they believe 8 in that, and they believed in the way we were living, and 9 they still do today, they believe in the way that we 10 live, peacefully and -- and recognized our lands, what 11 was given to us by the creator, to look after it, not to 12 make money out of it. 13 Q: Do you think you may have had that 14 support if -- if the philosophy was not peaceful and non- 15 violent? 16 A: I doubt it. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm wondering, Mr. 18 Commissioner, this might be a good place to take the 19 lunch break, and I would be prepared to move on from 20 there. I expect that we should be perhaps another maybe 21 sixty (60) minutes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right, 23 well if we break now, it's five (5) to 12:00, instead of 24 waiting until 12:00 and we reconvene at 1:15? 25 MR. DONALD WORME: That would be good,
1181 thank you, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 5 adjourned until 1:15. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 11:55 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 1:16 p.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed, please be seated. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN : Thank you. 13 Yes, sir. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: All right, Mr. 15 Commissioner. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: I think we left off, Mr. George, I 19 was going to talk to you about an incident on a roadway 20 that's adjacent to Ipperwash Park. Is there something 21 that you can tell us about that, it was occurring during 22 the summer of 1995? 23 A: Yes, I can. Can you hear me all 24 right, everybody? Is it okay? 25 Anyway, they decided that that roadway
1191 between the park and the proper campsite, they made a 2 roadway, they sold that -- I see in my documents, they 3 sold that to Bosanquet Township for the price of one 4 dollar ($1), that whole roadway around the park leading 5 into the -- into the lake, and that's the only -- that's 6 the only portion that -- that they could use. No where 7 else. 8 So -- so what happened was -- was they 9 were stopping the people going in there, telling them if 10 they wanted, for a price, they could use all of Stoney 11 Point Beach for a price of five dollars ($5), I think it 12 was. 13 But I -- I went there to check on -- on 14 everything, and -- and I seen that there's only young 15 fellows that are thrown into the cruiser, so I said, well 16 lets us old people get in there, so I went up and stopped 17 the first car, and I never even got to say hello to them, 18 or anything, all at once the big police got a hold of me 19 and throw me in a cruiser. 20 I never asked for money, I never even give 21 them that information, anyway I was -- I was taken -- 22 taken in -- in the cruiser with the other two (2) -- two 23 (2) boys. 24 So when we got to Forest later on, they 25 were interviewing me and they said we don't see nothing -
1201 - not too much wrong with you. If you promise not to go 2 near the camp, at least two (2) miles away from the camp, 3 you can go -- I'll let you go. 4 I said, no, siree, I said, I live -- I 5 live at the camp, and I said as soon as you let me go I'm 6 going -- I'm going to my home. 7 Well then they said, we'll take you to 8 Sarnia, so they took -- they took us to Sarnia. The 9 other two (2) boys, they said the same thing. Soon as 10 you let us out of here, we're -- we're going back to 11 where we come from. 12 So anyway they took us to Sarnia and went 13 through the Court proceedings, and -- and I was -- I was 14 in what they call a chain gang from the -- from the 15 bottom of the building to -- to the top, and -- and I was 16 -- I was with the gang going in there at my age, and the 17 -- the judge at that time was a lady, and she 18 specifically told -- told everybody, I do not want to see 19 this man come up them stairs again the way -- the way the 20 rest of them do. 21 But the next day, they says we got nobody 22 to take you, so they put me in the chain gang again, of 23 course I was obstinate and I -- I did go, and I managed - 24 - I managed to get up there. 25 So, that is some of the -- some of the
1211 things that they -- they used on us, but that's -- that's 2 -- that was just a minor deal that time. 3 Q: Okay, just so I understand you 4 correctly, there was some effort as I understand you, to 5 collect a toll for the use of the beach, is that fair? 6 A: They were -- they were -- they were 7 asking for toll at the lake, to be able to go through -- 8 go through the rest of our -- our beach, they said for 9 five dollars ($5), you can take the afternoon down there. 10 But we didn't -- they were just telling them that bad 11 stuff can happen over there, because I wanted -- just 12 like it is right now on this end of the -- this end of 13 the camp, you can go in there just at a small section. 14 So we -- we were offering the people that, 15 you know, for another five dollars ($5), they can have 16 the rest of the afternoon right -- right in that -- that 17 big -- big beach area. 18 Q: Okay. And I gather -- I gather from 19 what you've said, Mr. George, you did not collect any 20 money? 21 A: No, I never even mentioned money. 22 Q: I see. And you did spend some time 23 then in custody, did you? 24 A: Yes, from that time on they -- they 25 took me to Forest into the jail there and then they
1221 interviewed me and then they took me right in the Sarnia 2 jail and I was there for three (3) days. 3 Q: And do you know when that might have 4 been, in relation to the events of September 1995? 5 A: It -- it had to be just -- just prior 6 -- prior to the event. 7 Q: All right. In early 1995, that is 8 September of 1995, where were you residing? 9 A: In my Uncle Cliff's Cabin. 10 Q: All right. And were you aware that 11 there was an intention to move into the park? 12 A: Yes, I was -- I was there -- I was 13 with them every -- every time -- you know, when 14 everything happened, they informed me as -- as an elder 15 there. As a matter of fact at one time -- at one time 16 after -- after the -- the police force moved in, they 17 asked me if they should give up. 18 And I said no, we've already occupied, 19 we've already lost one building there and I said it would 20 be foolish to -- to give up now because I understand 21 these people because the other -- the other policeman 22 told me watch these other people, I said they're 23 specially picked that's a mean -- mean gang. 24 They don't care for life or limb. That's 25 what they're hired for. And there's the other police
1231 that told me that -- that at -- at the way coming in. I 2 got to talking to them because they were just the regular 3 force. They're from 4 -- from all different towns around. They weren't -- 5 weren't the professional people. 6 Q: All right. In early September of 7 1995 was I understood you were -- you were still dealing 8 in -- in Forest. That is to say you getting your water 9 and such there? 10 A: Yes, I was. 11 Q: And did you have an encounter at some 12 point then with -- 13 A: Well what had happened at that time 14 is that -- that when the first bunch of police come in, 15 they -- they blockaded every -- every road, every -- 16 every spot from -- from there to Forest all clean around 17 the whole place to Thedford. There was -- there was a 18 police blocks in every crossroads. So -- so you had to 19 stop at every one that they stopped with. 20 And they -- they had guns, they had 21 everything then. But they were not the special force. 22 Q: And you relayed some kind of 23 conversation to us just a minute ago? 24 A: Well I was coming back and they 25 stopped me at Ravenswood. And they asked me where I was
1241 going. I said I'm going home. And they said well where 2 is that? I said in the camp. And they said no, you're 3 not going there because you'll go and find somewhere 4 else. I said, where in the hell would I go? 5 And I said my -- my home is there. And -- 6 and being as foolish as I am, I waited til he was -- he 7 dropped his gun down a little and I got in my little car 8 and took off. And I hollered back at him some obscene 9 words. 10 And I was looking through my -- my rear -- 11 my rear window --for if he already lifted that gun I -- 12 at least I knew enough to zig zag but he just let me go. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: But they were making a nuisance of 15 themselves with the -- with the residents all around. 16 But we consider they -- they done that for a special 17 purpose so -- so the people around would get -- put the 18 blame on -- on the Indians for everything. And that's 19 just what happened. 20 Even they had roadblocks right in Forest 21 and of course we need groceries, we need everything and 22 some of our women the next day been going into -- going 23 into to buy their groceries. These -- these Forest women 24 said it loud enough so they could hear. Are they going 25 to let them people in here?
1251 We made that town from day one. So that - 2 - that is how -- that is how quick discrimination can -- 3 can crop up between them and ourselves yet we're all -- 4 we're all friends all along. Even all the Bonsanquet 5 people and the whole deal there, they blame us for 6 everything that was happening. 7 Q: And Mr. George, just so that we are 8 clear, were you aware of the occupation of the Park 9 before it occurred or after it occurred? 10 A: These -- word come that the -- they 11 had a big gathering in -- in Pine River Provincial Park. 12 They -- they was there for three (3) days contemplating 13 whether to send the -- this police force they did or -- 14 or the paratroopers. There was two hundred and fifty 15 (250) paratroopers there right -- open on us. 16 That's what we found out. And they 17 decided on not the paratroopers on account of the 18 military and stuff like that. So -- so they had what I 19 deem is a hit squad. They were specially trained for -- 20 for what they done. 21 And when they -- when they were ready to 22 come in they said these are the police people that are at 23 the gate stopped me and they said watch it Cliff, these 24 people are coming, we're done here at six o'clock and 25 these other people that's coming in are specially trained
1261 for what they're going to do. 2 Q: And did you -- do you know the person 3 that told you this? 4 A: No, I don't. They were just two (2) 5 policeman I made friends with. I couldn't tell you; I 6 couldn't even tell you the -- the army personnel. I 7 don't know their names, I never asked. 8 Q: And when they said that they were done 9 at 6:00 -- 10 A: Yeah? 11 Q: -- what day -- what day was that? 12 A: I couldn't tell you what day it was. 13 At least, it -- it was -- it was the night -- night of 14 the shooting of Dudley George as far as I know. 15 Q: It was the same night? 16 A: I -- I think it was the same night or 17 the night before. I can't tell you for sure. 18 Q: At some point, somebody came and told 19 you that they were in the park and should they stay or 20 should they leave? Is that what I understood you to say? 21 A: That -- that is when I told them -- I 22 said, No, you -- you'd be very foolish because these -- 23 these people would only mow you down which -- which they 24 did with -- with one (1) of our councillors and -- and 25 they -- they really give him a rough time.
1271 They dragged him by the hair. All he was 2 trying to do was stop them and told them that these 3 people have got no guns and -- and of course, they -- 4 they picked on him. All -- all the police force dragged 5 him, kicked him, and pretty near killed him. That was 6 one (1) of our councillors that went there. 7 Q: Right, I understand that but when you 8 said that you had told this individual that they've 9 already occupied it and they'd be foolish to give up -- 10 A: Yes, I did because -- because we all - 11 - we always deemed the park as -- as the rest of Stoney 12 Point because there's -- there's many reasons why -- why 13 we want to keep -- keep that park on account of the -- on 14 account of the -- the Christian beliefs that we have. 15 Leave the dead where they are. 16 Q: Okay, and do you recall who it was 17 that came to your residence to ask you whether or not 18 they should leave the park? 19 A: It -- it was my -- my good friend, 20 Glenn -- Glen George. He says, What should we do? And I 21 told him, I said -- and while he was asking me this is 22 when a truck pulled up and he says, Get in here, there's 23 trouble down there and that's when the shooting took 24 place. 25 So he just jumped in the -- in the truck
1281 and then took off. After that there was many people come 2 through the bush because they couldn't get -- get through 3 on account of the road blocks. 4 They -- they -- they -- they were looking 5 for their children. They come straight through the bush 6 and just happened that -- that I had a light outside my 7 place and that's where they come to ask me directions on 8 how -- how to get there. 9 But the young people were -- were -- were 10 smart enough to know that they run into the bush when all 11 this started. 12 Q: And when Glenn came to your place to 13 tell you this, was this the first time that you knew or 14 had you known before that they were in the park? 15 A: No, I -- I -- I knew -- I knew from 16 the first time that they took the park because they -- 17 they give them ample notice before -- before the end of 18 the holiday season. They went in there and they told -- 19 they told the head guy there, We are taking this park 20 over when -- when everybody leaves it. 21 Q: All right. And were you part of that 22 conversation? 23 A: Sure I was. 24 Q: All right. On the evening when you 25 came back and had to gun your engine to get around the --
1291 the police at Ravenswood were there other police in the 2 area? 3 A: All over -- every -- every crossroads. 4 That was in -- that was in the middle of the day that -- 5 that happened. 6 Q: All right. Did you attend at the park 7 at any point that time or at any time during the -- 8 A: I -- I was in and out in the daytime 9 but I never went there in the night hours, no. 10 Q: All right. What about on the day that 11 Dudley George was shot? 12 A: I -- I been around there all the time. 13 Every day I drove around to see what was going -- what 14 was happening. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: So I -- I was in and around there. 17 Q: And what was happening? 18 A: Just -- just ordinary -- just ordinary 19 -- holding our line there. There was no -- there was no 20 indication that anything was going to happen except -- 21 except that night when -- when they come in when -- when 22 the police force come in beating their -- beating their 23 shields and -- and they -- they wanted some of the boy -- 24 the people there at the -- at the fence and that's when 25 Bernard run in there and tried to stop them and then he
1301 got beat up and thrown in the paddy wagon, or whatever it 2 was, and -- and that's when -- that's when the bus drove 3 in there to try and save -- save that -- that young man. 4 Q: And -- and just to be clear, Mr. 5 George, you were not there at that time? 6 A: I wasn't there at the time, no. 7 Q: And this is something that was related 8 to you? 9 A: Yes, I know it was but -- but anybody 10 -- I didn't have to -- I didn't have to see what's going 11 on to know what was happening because I was told 12 immediately what happened and what was happening and how 13 the police held all these unnecessarily, these two (2) -- 14 these two (2) ladies. 15 I think -- I think one of them is here. 16 They had to give them a rough time when she was -- when 17 she was just trying to phone up for help for Dudley 18 because they refused to use their own vehicles to take 19 this man -- man to the hospital. 20 And it was a beat up old car that went 21 straight through the back roads to take this man to -- to 22 Strathroy Hospital. He had a flat tire halfway down and 23 -- and eventually they -- they finally got there and took 24 Dudley. 25 We still surmise, if the police had done
1311 their duty, what they were supposed to do and -- and 2 threw him in their ambulance or their vehicles that man 3 would have been alive today. 4 Q: You had told us at some earlier point 5 that you did not see any weapons among those people 6 either in the Camp or in the Park -- well, certainly in 7 the Camp, I don't know whether or not you've told us 8 about -- 9 A: Well, when -- no -- there's -- 10 there's never any weapons there because we're very 11 cautious about weapons. We knew -- we knew that there 12 was spies around. We knew -- we knew that people had 13 their eye on us. The helicopter would come around. They 14 used to just hover and watch us. 15 They knew whatever -- every move that we 16 made. 17 Q: You've seen the helicopters? 18 A: Yes, I did. They were -- they were 19 hovering just about twenty (20) feet above me one time 20 there at my place just to check up on me. I seen about 21 four (4) or five (5) people sitting there in their seats 22 just as plain as anything. 23 So that's -- that's the kind of harassment 24 that they -- they done to us. They -- they dove down on 25 us, the kids went screaming because they were scared.
1321 Even the dogs went -- went running in the bush. 2 Q: You had told us that it was your 3 initial, together with others, who had entered the Army 4 Camp. It was your intention to pursue a non-violent -- 5 A: Always. There was -- there was no -- 6 non-violence, we just -- we just drove in through the 7 gate and told them that we're taking over the Camp also. 8 Q: And do you know whether or not 9 discussions were had among others? 10 A: There never was any negotiations of 11 any sort that I know of. 12 Q: Do you know if the other people that 13 were in the park shared your view that there -- that 14 there was non-violent -- that this would be a non-violent 15 peaceful protest? 16 A: They all -- they all knew. We all 17 knew. We had meetings. No weapons would be allowed 18 anywhere. They had -- they had sticks and stones for 19 their protection. But that was all. 20 Q: And is this consistent with the 21 burying the hatchet ceremony that you told us about? 22 A: Well, yes. We had a regular burial 23 there right by where we built our church. We dug a deep 24 hole down there and -- and several people buried a 25 hatchet there. We covered it and we planted a tree over
1331 it; that tree stands there today growing real tall; that 2 was when we all buried the hatchet. 3 I think -- I think Pierre mentioned that 4 in one of the -- one of the deals. 5 Q: Cliff, you're a military man. You 6 know what automatic weapons look like? 7 A: Oh, I sure do. 8 Q: You know what they sound like? 9 A: Very well. 10 Q: Did you see any such thing at either 11 the Camp or the Park? 12 A: No, I didn't. 13 Q: Did you hear any such thing? 14 A: Never. 15 Q: Is it possible that there might have 16 been a discharge of automatic weapon fire at some 17 location where you would not have been able to hear it? 18 A: Well, could have been. It's a large 19 camp. 20 Q: You had left the camp -- you left 21 Uncle Cliff's cabin at some point? 22 A: Well, that was way after all this was 23 over. When they were -- most of the people moved in -- 24 into the barracks after -- after the takeover and picked 25 out -- picked out their homes and then they stayed there.
1341 They asked me if I wanted to go and I said 2 no. So after -- after about a year or so I decided that 3 -- that I accomplished what I went there for. We got the 4 ear of the government. And that -- that was mostly my -- 5 my intentions to go in there and -- and get this coming 6 up again. 7 So maybe the authorities could do 8 something about this. 9 So -- so I -- I applied here for -- for 10 residence, which I got here, in -- in -- Kettle Point, 11 and I'm there yet. 12 Q: Okay. You had mentioned an 13 individual by the name of Dan George, earlier...? 14 A: yes. 15 Q: And he passed on in 1990; is that 16 correct? 17 A: I couldn't tell you for sure, because 18 my mind don't register every incident, and I forget the 19 dates and stuff like that. But he -- he passed away and 20 -- and he asked to be buried in our Cemetery, and which - 21 - which we did, and he the only living -- the only person 22 that ever was buried there, facing north and south, 23 because the rest were -- with the -- the Christian way of 24 east and -- east and west. 25 Q: All right. Were you aware of other
1351 Burial Grounds in and around that area that we're talking 2 about, namely the Camp Ipperwash and the Park? 3 A: Yes, as a matter of fact, in 1949, 4 they were starting to make the roads there in the -- in 5 the Park, and -- and this -- this man came up to us at -- 6 at the Headquarters where -- where all -- where all the 7 workers worked from, the main -- the main work building 8 there, and he -- he stopped and told -- told that -- that 9 he had dug up a body and he stopped his machine, he went 10 back to his Superiors and told them: I dug up bones of a 11 whole body. 12 And -- and what happened was that -- that 13 -- the -- the man in charge of him told him: You just go 14 ahead and put that -- he -- he was taking the dirt and 15 fill -- in -- into a truck, and he said he has to keep 16 going or else go home. 17 And he -- he got peeved and that's when he 18 came and told -- told some of the boys there, there was 19 quite a few Natives working there then, carpenters and 20 painters, and stuff like that. That document is in 21 Kettle Point, by the way. 22 Q: And as a result of your being told 23 that, did you do anything about it? 24 A: No, not me, not me, you know I didn't 25 -- I -- I didn't do anything about it. I wasn't the one
1361 that it was told, but I -- but I was right -- right 2 around there, I was -- I was working there then, as a 3 Caretaker. 4 Q: Okay. So you weren't the one that 5 was told, so did you hear this? 6 A: Pardon? 7 Q: Did you hear the conversation as it 8 was being told? 9 A: No, but someone told right after -- 10 right after the man left. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: They in turn come to Kettle Point -- 13 the office there and told -- and told them there, I think 14 that that's documented in -- in Kettle Point there, 15 documents there. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 17 be careful, Mr. Worme, that you don't ask for what 18 amounts to -- 19 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm -- I'm leaving 20 there -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- hearsay 22 twice removed. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, 24 Commissioner. 25
1371 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: Your father had spoken to you about 3 burial practises, I assume? 4 A: There's many Seniors that -- that 5 told us about that, about the different burial places and 6 different burial -- burial practises, than ordinary 7 Christian people, as I call it, they're Christian faith. 8 Because in the olden times there was no 9 such thing as a burial -- community burial places until 10 the -- until the Government took over the -- the 11 Reservations completely, and -- and they made us put the 12 -- put the place of burial together as it is today. 13 Q: You mean, in a sense -- 14 A: Not before, but before then when -- 15 when one of our Elders or one of the -- the people died, 16 wherever they died, we -- we just -- we just buried them, 17 that's all it was. 18 And there was burial places all -- all 19 over the place there in -- in the place where Dudley was 20 shot. As a matter of fact, my Friend, Jordas (phonetic) 21 told me just -- just not long ago, when I asked for that 22 sand to be drawn out, he informed me that -- that his -- 23 one of the -- one of the Elders from somewhere else told 24 him, and that there's two (2) people buried there right 25 where Dudley was shot. And there -- there are other
1381 people buried all along the place down there. 2 If you guys don't believe me, just -- just 3 go ahead, you're -- you're welcome to -- to get somebody, 4 some Elder that -- that's got the -- that's got the 5 knowledge how to do this. They can -- they can do it 6 just like -- just like I've seen it done. Where they can 7 tell you this is where a person is buried and this one is 8 buried there. 9 Because we have the practice of -- of 10 sometimes -- sometimes if a person wasn't buried the 11 right way we had to -- we -- we had to go in there and go 12 through a Restive (phonetic) to settle him down and give 13 him -- and give him the peace that he was -- that he 14 deserved. 15 So there's -- so there's several burials 16 there all over the place; that -- that explains why -- 17 why this baby's head was -- was found there with the sand 18 blowing. There wasn't that much sand because most of it 19 is all -- all growth. 20 And we do bury -- we do bury our people in 21 the sand because all -- all of our own -- our own deal is 22 all pure sand. We know how to -- how to dig, not like 23 the gentleman said the other day. It's not a little sand 24 that -- that we're dealing with as it is in the hills. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. Thank you,
1391 Mr. George. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much, Mr. Worme. Thank you. Some of these other 4 lawyers are going to ask you some questions now. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: I think those are all 7 my questions, Mr. Commissioner, so, thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. 10 Are we going to proceed with cross- 11 examination essentially according to the groupings that 12 we've talked about; I think so. Let's just -- 13 MR. DONALD WORME: I don't -- I don't 14 believe that there had been any pre-agreement with 15 respect to that. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we'll 17 see how it goes but if it becomes necessary we'll have to 18 stop and make sure that we have an understanding as to 19 how cross-examination is going to proceed oherwise, we 20 may be forever. 21 So, I think we -- as I set out at the 22 beginning, we'll go with the groupings that I set out 23 even though there isn't any agreement until it becomes a 24 problem. 25 So, we'll start with --
1401 MR. DONALD WORME: And I apologize for 2 that, Commissioner. I ought to have raised it -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 MR. DONALD WORME: -- with My Friends 5 earlier. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll start 7 with the George family and work our way through it and 8 we'll see how it goes. 9 And then, as I said, the ground rules are 10 that if the groupings want to reorganize the order of 11 cross-examination in the groups that's fine because the 12 first cross-examiner will, obviously, be asking the most 13 amount of questions and the subsequent cross-examiners 14 will do everything they can, I presume, not to duplicate 15 and overlap and if they do, we may have to cut you off. 16 So, let's see what happens. 17 Mr. Klippenstein...? 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I thank you, 19 Commissioner. I hope I don't ask a lot of questions the 20 way you referred to but I'm -- I'm mindful that Mr. 21 George has been testifying for a while and we all may 22 want to complete today. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 25 Q: As you know, Mr. George, I'm legal
1411 counsel for the Estate of Dudley George and -- 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: -- and for Maynard Sam George who's 4 with us today and for four (4) other brothers and sisters 5 of Dudley. And I just want to express thanks for your 6 courage and sacrifice as a native veteran for what you've 7 done for us all. 8 A: Thank you, sir. 9 Q: I would like to ask a number of 10 questions that come to my mind when you describe what 11 happened to you at a checkpoint and when you described it 12 a few minutes ago I understand you said that you had been 13 stopped by some officers and they had guns? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And they asked you not to go back to 16 the Stoney Point lands? 17 A: Yes, sir. They told me that I must 18 find some other place to -- to go -- 19 Q: And you said -- 20 A: -- to go and live there. 21 Q: -- and you said something like 22 "that's my home"? 23 A: Yes, sir. I did. 24 Q: And then you took off down the road 25 away from them?
1421 A: Well, I waited my chance, sir. That 2 -- I had my -- my car, a little Hyundai; I had it -- I 3 had it revved up. Where I had it as running where they 4 stopped me and he -- he definitely had a machine gun in 5 his hand or -- or at least one that can shoot. 6 Q: And you -- you then talked about zig- 7 zagging and you talked about that in a joking way but did 8 you think there might be a possibility they would shoot 9 at you? 10 A: Well, they -- they had guns. You 11 know, I already -- I already told them -- I already told 12 you that I swore at them. I said, to "H" with you guys, 13 I'm going home and I gunned it. 14 Q: When you said that and you said that 15 you were going home, it made me think a bit about you and 16 the Stoney Point lands. I get the feeling that you 17 believe that the Creator gave the Stoney Point lands to 18 your people? 19 A: As far as I'm concerned, yes, it is. 20 It's still ours. 21 Q: And is it your view that the Treaty 22 of 1827 which we've heard something about involved the 23 Crown confirming that those lands would be yours forever? 24 25 A: Yes, sir. Up until that -- as we do
1431 in our -- in our native communities, father to son and 2 all the way down the line. We never kept -- we never 3 kept papers. 4 Q: And do you believe today that the 5 Stoney Point lands are rightfully yours? 6 A: Yes, sir. In all indications 7 everything was there for our livelihood plus -- plus a 8 little extra where we work outside of the deal but -- but 9 everything was in there. Even to the weaving of baskets, 10 the making of chairs and -- and the -- the timber and 11 everything, the fish and -- because we -- we used it all. 12 Everything. 13 Q: Do you believe that it was wrong for 14 the Government of Canada to have taken those lands and 15 kept them? 16 A: As far as I'm concerned, they had 17 ample lands right across from us there which was only 18 three (3) farms in that mile and a quarter and it was 19 open land. And these people that owned -- that owned 20 that -- that land would have -- because they retired 21 anyway. 22 They could easily had it right today as I 23 see it. They would have had a big camp there. What 24 they're always talking about they would have had a big 25 permanent military camp there if they wanted one (1) at
1441 that time in -- in that -- in that section. 2 Q: Can you tell me if Dudley, from your 3 spending time with him, believed these things the way you 4 did and do? 5 A: Well, he had -- he had a great -- he 6 had a great love for -- for -- for our place. And when 7 we finally got together and got him that -- that big 8 trailer that we gave him, we, the Council at that time, 9 gave him that -- that trailer that we bought. 10 We -- we, as a Council at that time, and - 11 - and it's just like giving him a mansion. He treasured 12 that place because he told me that it was the first home 13 that he ever owned. 14 Q: And was Stoney Point home for him? 15 A: Well, he never -- he never lived 16 there before. 17 Q: But did it become his home? 18 A: Well, certainly it was. Same as all 19 the rest of them that were -- that were born elsewhere. 20 We -- they are -- they are people of Stoney Point 21 descendants. We all treasure that -- that we are Stoney 22 Pointers and we still are. 23 Q: You -- you mentioned that Dudley 24 would interact with some of the military people that were 25 on the Ipperwash Base and it sounded like he interacted
1451 somewhat strongly with them sometimes; that he would 2 sometimes even curse at them. 3 And can you tell me; is it -- is it fair 4 to say that when -- when Dudley was saying these things 5 or when he was giving them the finger, as you said he 6 had, to people in the army at Ipperwash and when he was 7 living in his trailer on the land that he was standing up 8 to the people he considered to be trespassers and 9 occupiers? 10 A: No, he was just a very verbal young 11 fella. He didn't mean half of what he said all the time. 12 He was very verbal with them and because he wanted to be. 13 He -- he didn't think that they should still be holding 14 all our lands; that was his idea. So he give them a 15 rough time by cursing and swearing at them and giving the 16 finger. 17 Q: And he -- he did that because he 18 didn't think they should be holding his land, your land? 19 A: Why certainly that was the deal 20 because there was only -- there was only three (3) -- 21 three (3) army sergeants there that are making that deal. 22 That are looking after the whole area because they'd all 23 -- they'd all left -- the cadets had left and -- and 24 there was three (3) stationed there to -- to look after 25 the whole camp.
1461 And they used to drive around regular, 2 around the perimeter inside too, you know, because of 3 their duty. 4 Q: And would you agree with me that -- 5 that he was standing up for what he considered to be his 6 treaty rights to the land? 7 A: Well, certainly he -- he knew -- he 8 knew about that, you know, he knew a lot about -- about 9 that because his other brothers and -- and people told 10 him and he understood that that was our land that was 11 taken illegally from us. The War Measures Act should 12 never have been implemented in -- in -- on -- on a 13 reservation -- on us. There was no need for it. 14 The War Measures Act says, only in extreme 15 cases. Well, there -- goes the War Measures Act. Look 16 what they done to -- Pierre Trudeau when -- when he -- 17 when he implemented the War Measures Act. He had a rough 18 time because it was not proper for him to use it. Only 19 in extreme cases can you use the War Measures Act. 20 That's the way I understood it, anyway. 21 Q: I'd like to ask you a few questions 22 about the park? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1471 Q: Now, it's my understanding from what 2 you've said that your father was William George. Is that 3 right? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And his father was Moses. 6 A: Tommy George. 7 Q: Is -- is he also know as Moses, or -- 8 A: Pardon? 9 Q: Is he also known as Moses? 10 A: No, no. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: No, Tommy George was -- was Moses -- 13 Moses George's father was -- was Tommy George's brother. 14 They both come to the two (2) reserves -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- from -- from the American side. 17 Q: Was Tommy George a brother of Albert 18 George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay, and -- so Tommy George was your 21 grandfather? 22 A: Tommy George was my grandfather on my 23 father's side, yes, sir. 24 Q: And Tommy George's brother, Albert, 25 had a son named Robert. Is that right?
1481 A: Pardon? 2 Q: Tommy George's brother was Albert 3 George, right? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And Albert George had a son named 6 Robert George? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And Robert George had a son named 9 Reginald George? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And Reginald George had a son named 12 Dudley George? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And Maynard Sam George -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And other -- other children as well. 17 A: There's a few -- there's a few of the 18 family. 19 Q: Now, I'm interested in -- in Albert 20 George who then would have been Dudley's great 21 grandfather. 22 A: Mmm hmm. 23 Q: I understand that Albert George lived 24 on the treaty lands which subsequently became Ipperwash 25 Park. Do you know if that's the case?
1491 A: Yes, sir, it is -- is the truth 2 because I remembered going there with -- with my -- with 3 my grandparents, like Hanna White and -- and she married 4 a White. And -- and we used to -- they used to drive us 5 around there because there was a regular thoroughfare 6 there but Albert George was the only person that ever 7 lived there that had a building there. 8 Q: So, he had a house of some kind? 9 A: He had a house there; he had a little 10 -- little building there and -- and as far as I 11 understand that -- after his wife passed away he -- he 12 moved to the residence of -- of his oldest son, Moses 13 George, and that's where he passed away. 14 Q: So, Albert George, Dudley's great 15 grandfather, was living in the park when his wife passed 16 away? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Do you know where Albert George's wife 19 is buried? 20 A: No, I couldn't -- I couldn't tell you. 21 Q: Okay. Is it possible that she's 22 buried in what is now or was recently the park? 23 A: I couldn't tell you that, sir. 24 Q: And you attended personally at the 25 house of Albert George, your --
1501 A: I've been there, yes, Sir. 2 Q: And so Dudley's great grandfather 3 lived in what is now the park -- or was until recently, 4 the park? 5 A: Mmm hmm. 6 Q: Okay. Thank you. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: You said in your comments a little 11 while ago something about the government taking over our 12 reserves. And you've also talked about some experiences 13 with Indian agents when you came back from World War II? 14 A: When I came back home, yes, sir. 15 Q: An expert witness testified a few 16 weeks earlier to this Commission that in the 1920's it 17 was often the case that when Indians were asked to 18 surrender their Treaty lands they were under extreme 19 pressure and influence from Indian agents? 20 A: I noticed that several times, sir, 21 that they -- they had a lot of authority. 22 Q: What do you mean by that? 23 A: Well, in the one (1) previous to Mr. 24 McCracken there was a -- there was a -- he was only a 25 farmer from living close by. He says, let me be the --
1511 the Indian agent for them people, I know how to handle 2 them. And -- and of course -- of course that's the way 3 they used us. They very sparingly let us have anything. 4 Q: And do you agree from your experience 5 within Indian agents after you came back from the war, 6 that the ones or one (1) that you saw did exercise 7 extreme pressure and influence on Indians? 8 A: He was given all -- all the -- as I 9 understand it, they were given complete power to look 10 after us veterans that means in everything. All across 11 the nation because a young lady -- a young lady was sent 12 to -- to interview all the veterans right from one (1) 13 end of Canada to the other and she stopped in at my -- my 14 little shack where I lived. And she told me about 15 several instances they was used the same way I was. 16 Being enfranchised without asking for it, 17 pressuring us into it. As a matter of fact at one (1) 18 time to join the services you had to enfranchise. So I 19 understand, I haven't seen -- I haven't seen the 20 documents saying that but -- but I have heard. 21 Q: I take it from some comments you made 22 that you don't really feel that the Federal Government 23 has treated you personally fairly over the years or your 24 lands -- your lands fairly? 25 A: It's a well known factor, sir, that -
1521 - that they used -- they used us as -- as wards and -- 2 and not as human beings. I know several instances where 3 they called us many, many different names and some of 4 them not very good. 5 Q: It's -- it's my understanding that 6 there's no formal representative of the Federal 7 Government here today and hasn't ever been at these 8 hearings. Would you agree with me that it seems like the 9 Federal Government still doesn't seem to care? 10 A: Pardon? 11 Q: Would you agree with me that the 12 Federal Government still doesn't seem to care? 13 A: It seems that way, sir, because they 14 -- they still have their -- their ways of dealing with us 15 as -- as Natives, as -- as people that haven't got the 16 capacity to look after ourselves because that is why all 17 across the nation right now we're trying to get complete 18 governance of ourselves and our -- our assets. 19 But it hasn't worked that way. Mr. Nolt 20 (phonetic) that told us exactly, we'll -- we'll give you 21 governance but I'm the boss. So -- so that indicates to 22 me that they're still using us as wards. 23 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. George and 24 thank you, Commissioner. I have no further questions. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
1531 very much. Mr. Rosenthal...? 2 MR. DONALD WORME: I wonder, Mr. 3 Commissioner, before My Friend Mr. Rosenthal commences 4 depending upon, of course, how long he's going to be and 5 I don't want to certainly restrict him, it might be the 6 appropriate time to take a break. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps I 8 could make some general inquiries as I did with other 9 witnesses. How many Counsel intend to cross-examine Mr. 10 Clifford George? Just give me an indication. 11 Pretty large number? Have you got some -- 12 let's leave it at that. Obviously we're not going to 13 finish today so let's just carry on. We'll take a break 14 now, is that what you're saying? 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When we come 17 back we'll start, Mr. Rosenthal? 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 19 Commissioner. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 2:04 p.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 2:22 p.m. 25
1541 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. I asked my associate counsel, Katherine 5 Hensel to ask those who indicated intention to cross- 6 examine, to give us some idea and I appreciate your co- 7 operation. 8 Obviously you're not held to it strictly, 9 but it does give us an idea of where we're going and how 10 long it'll take. So thank you very much. 11 Mr. Rosenthal...? 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 17 A: Good afternoon. 18 Q: I'm here representing a group of a 19 dozen people who you know. They're under the name 20 'Aazhoodena and the George Family Group' and that 21 includes Pierre George and a number of the children of 22 Dan and Melva George and a couple of their grandchildren 23 as well. 24 And on behalf of them and myself, we 25 certainly greatly admire and respect you for your
1551 wonderful courage and making such a valued attempt to get 2 back Stoney Point for the Stoney Point people. 3 A: Thank you, sir. 4 Q: Now you told us a bit about Robert 5 George and I believe you mentioned that he and your 6 father were the two (2) carpenters in the -- in the 7 Stoney Point First Nation, is that correct? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And they were quite successful at 10 making lawn furniture out of cedar? 11 A: Yes, sir. They done that every 12 summer, all summer long. They were great -- they were 13 great people. 14 Q: Did they sell it in the local 15 community then? 16 A: No, they -- they use to load that up 17 in their cars, in them days they were pretty well touring 18 cars and they'd pile all the -- and they use to pedal 19 door to door in other places. Plus, plus they -- they 20 fulfilled lots of other -- when people wanted them they 21 had many, many things that had to make. 22 Q: Right. And one of Robert's children 23 was named Dan George, is that right? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: So was he about your age then?
1561 A: I -- I grew up with him. I think he 2 was just a little younger than I am. 3 Q: And you grew up with him -- 4 A: I grew up with him as a schoolmate, 5 as a friend and we chummed around together constantly. 6 Q: And he was one of the people who was 7 relocated to Kettle Point in 1942, is that correct? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: Do you recall any discussions with 10 him about that? Or how he felt about that at the time? 11 A: No. Actually I didn't, sir. Because 12 I was overseas already and he -- he'd just got married 13 and -- and that's when they -- they moved to Kettle Point 14 and I didn't have much to do with him until after we got 15 settled back in after the war. And then we become 16 friends again with him and his wife and me and myself and 17 -- and my wife. We chummed around together then quite a 18 bit. 19 20 Q: Did he express afterward then, did he 21 express views to you about Stoney Point First Nation and 22 his view as to whether or not he wanted to go back there? 23 A: Well we all discussed it at one time 24 or another when we got together because you know, the 25 horrors that they -- they put on our older people and
1571 stuff like that, you know, we talked about that quite 2 openly many times in our discussions or meeting together, 3 you know, as friends. 4 They had openly discussed -- discussed 5 long -- many times about -- about how the government is - 6 - is working us and -- and not wanting to give that land 7 back to us. Because we -- we figured out several reasons 8 why. And some of the reasons are, we knew, we've heard 9 that there's nuclear waste in there and I know where -- 10 where some of it is. 11 And not only that but when I was caretaker 12 there there's a whole big mound of -- of mustard gas. I 13 know where it is. 14 Also -- also one of the staff sergeants 15 come and told young Robert and myself, I don't know his 16 name, but -- but he's a salesman now. He told us that -- 17 that the -- the bottomless little lake that we had is not 18 bottomless anymore. They rolled down canisters and 19 canisters of -- of nerve gas in that and that's how 20 dangerous it is. 21 We think it's true. Because he said he 22 has proven it. I tried to prove it. I didn't have the 23 right equipment when I moved in there. And there's all 24 that chemicals that was mentioned to me. 25 Q: Now, you told us that Dan George Sr.
1581 was one of the people who accompanied you at a meeting in 2 1990 that was held on the camp, is that correct? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And -- and that -- 5 A: Yeah he was all -- he was always 6 active -- that had anything to do with Stoney Point and 7 the same as the rest of us. 8 Q: He was quite active in -- in the 9 movement to regain Stoney Point? 10 A: Yes, him and his wife and his family 11 were all -- were all -- all of us were trying to -- 12 trying to see when they're going to give us back -- back 13 our lands. 14 Q: And then he died in 1990 and he was 15 buried in Stoney Point. You told us that that was the 16 first burial that was done in the First Nation's way as 17 opposed to the Christian way. Is that right? 18 A: Yes, sir. He was the one and only as 19 far as I know in -- in that burial ground -- cemetery. 20 Q: And were you present at the funeral? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And what role did that funeral play 23 in people's thoughts about regaining Stoney Point as a 24 place to live? 25 A: Well as usual we were all saying it's
1591 about time that the government smartened up and -- and 2 give us back what was rightfully ours. And we all 3 decided there's other reasons than just the camp because 4 they had lots of other camps there. They could have went 5 there for their -- for their kids and stuff like that. 6 Where they're gone now Meaford was always 7 -- always open. Why didn't they go there first with 8 their cadets? That's where they are now today. 9 Q: You mentioned the church at Stoney 10 Point, what happened to that church in 1942, do you know? 11 A: The what, sir? 12 Q: There was a church in Stoney Point? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And before 1942, and what happened to 15 that church when the land was appropriated in 1942, do 16 you know? 17 A: The church was moved to Kettle Point 18 and there was a fam -- they renovated it to a large home 19 as I understand it for -- for Moses George and family. 20 Q: And there was also a school house at 21 Stoney Point? 22 A: Yes, sir. I don't -- I couldn't even 23 tell you where the school house went because -- it's -- 24 it's in Stoney Point -- Kettle Point somewhere 25 Q: I see, thank you. You indicated
1601 earlier in your evidence, you said, one of the things 2 that you don't understand about why they seized Stoney 3 Point Reservation was there was other land nearby, 4 farmland that could have been taken? 5 A: I do, sir. 6 Q: Now there's a document that's been 7 provided as part of your documents that you provided to 8 Commission counsel I believe. Document number 1 is 9 entitled 'The Chippewas of Kettle and Stoney Point, Camp 10 Ipperwash' and I should like to refer to something from 11 that document and then ask you to comment on it if I 12 could. The portion that I want to refer to is now on the 13 screen if it could be raised a little bit please. 14 This is page 8 as one can see on the lower 15 lefthand corner of this pamphlet. And this section is 16 entitled 'The Military in Lambton County 1938 to 1946' 17 and to summarize it briefly perhaps. Or perhaps I should 18 read the entire couple paragraphs: 19 "In 1938 the Department of 20 National Defence established the 21 Pine Hill Camp Training Facility 22 on leased land near Thedford, a 23 few kilometres from Stoney Point. 24 Local merchants -- supplied the 25 needs of this camp until it was
1611 closed in 1940. There was intense 2 local and political lobbying to 3 keep the basic open -- to the base 4 open, as a permanent facility, but 5 the military explained that they 6 did not want to spend the money 7 required to build a water pipeline 8 from the lake. 9 On the 15th of April, 1941, Mr. 10 Grey (phonetic)..." 11 And may I interrupt to interpolate that 12 earlier in the pamphlet it says that Mr. Grey was a 13 Member of Parliament: 14 "...wrote to Brigadier D. J. MacDonald 15 (phonetic), the District Commander, to 16 ask if there was any prospect of 17 National Defence using the Pine Hill 18 Camp that year, as they had in the 19 past. Grey went on to say that he 20 could secure additional land for 21 mineral rental. On April 17, 1941, the 22 Clerk for the Village of Thedford, G. 23 C. Henderson (phonetic), informed Mr. 24 Grey and Department Officials, that a 25 resolution had been passed by Council
1621 stating, quote, 'That the lands known 2 as Pine Hill Camp be offered for use as 3 a military camp, without charge, for 4 the duration of the war, and that the 5 site is well located for such purpose.' 6 [end quote] 7 The Defence Department declined the 8 offer, they wrote, [quote], 'It would 9 cost too much money to provide an 10 adequate water supply system to Pine 11 Hill, unless it was to be a permanent 12 base, and that the provision of a 13 permanent base is in abeyance for the 14 duration of the war.'" end quote. 15 Now, sir, that pamphlet that you provided 16 seems to suggest another alternate possibility to using 17 Stoney Point Reserve for the Military Base to use Pine 18 Hill Camp, were you aware of that at the time as well? 19 A: Very well, sir, I -- I remember -- I 20 remember the time, I was around then at the time. I 21 remember way before the war even started, they -- they 22 had a summer camp there in the summertimes the military 23 used to come there training, because we used to run into 24 them down Ipperwash way and then here and there, sorry. 25 So -- so we were quite aware of the -- the
1631 huge piece of land there that -- that was offered to 2 them, what they used at the time for -- for summer 3 facilities, but they were all under -- under canvass. 4 Q: And this document suggest that in 5 order to save the expense of running pipeline to Pine 6 Hill Camp, they decided to violate the Treaty of 1827 and 7 force the people from Stoney Point to move to Kettle 8 Point, is that your understanding as well? 9 A: That is my understanding, some of it. 10 Q: Now, sir, you told us about your 11 being arrested and taken to Forest and then to Sarnia 12 when there was this toll collection going on, even though 13 you hadn't quite gotten to participate in it. 14 Now, there may have been some uncertainty 15 in your evidence as to when that occurred, that was in 16 the summer of 1993, I believe, is that correct? 17 A: No, sir, it was a year after, as my 18 recollection is -- 19 Q: I see. 20 A: -- it was in -- in '94. 21 Q: Well, in '94 perhaps? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: In any event, it was certainly well 24 before the time that Dudley got there? 25 A: Yes, sir.
1641 Q: Now you mentioned briefly the burying 2 the hatchet and the planting of the peace tree, and I'd 3 just like to ask you a little bit more about that. 4 That was the ceremony that took place in 5 the summer of -- do you recall what year? 6 A: Not correctly, sir, but I know it was 7 somewhere around that time before -- before anything -- 8 anything happened. 9 Q: Yes, sir -- I would -- I would 10 suggest to you that it was towards the beginning of the 11 reclaiming of the park -- sorry, of the camp rather, 12 towards the beginning of it, it was -- 13 A: It -- 14 Q: -- sorry, I don't want to indicate 15 that that -- 16 A: -- it was after we claimed the -- we 17 claimed residence there. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Before. 20 Q: After you in 1993, went into the 21 military camp to reclaim your land? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And at the ceremony, do you recall 24 where the tree came from that was planted there? 25 A: Somebody got -- somebody brought it
1651 to us, I don't know who, I couldn't tell you where -- 2 where -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- where it was taken from, because 5 there's all kinds of trees around, some that the military 6 planted, and some were naturally -- were grown there. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: It is a pine tree that was picked out 9 for its size and -- and how big it was and today it's a 10 wonderful tree. 11 Q: And then there was the hatchet that 12 was buried as part of that same ceremony? 13 A: There was several make believe 14 hatchets there, just that everybody had a chance to throw 15 in, in this deep hole that we dug, to throw in the 16 hatchet, and we buried it. 17 Q: And do -- do you recall whether 18 Dudley George himself, participated in that ceremony? 19 A: I couldn't -- I couldn't remember. I 20 -- I imagine -- I imagine he did, because there was quite 21 a few of us there at the time. 22 Q: Okay. Okay, thank you. You told us 23 that after you reclaimed the land partially, you set up a 24 Council and chose a chief, and so on, for the Stoney 25 Point First Nation, is that correct?
1661 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And was the person who was chosen as 3 chief then? 4 A: Well the first one (1) was a Maynard 5 T. George . 6 Q: I see. 7 A: And we had him for Chief for a while, 8 and then there was a Carl, Carl Erlsman (phonetic), I 9 think he goes by. 10 Q: I see. 11 A: He's -- he's a cousin of mine. 12 Q: And then there was also a councillor 13 chosen? 14 A: That was -- that was -- I think there 15 was four (4) councillors chosen. 16 Q: Four (4) councillors? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And do you know for how long that 19 continued, there being a chief and four (4) councillors 20 at Stoney Point? 21 A: It was -- it was at least over a good 22 year, and what happened was there was that -- after that 23 time, we -- we started separating to our own -- our own 24 people, like our own places, and then we moved several 25 different places around. So gradually -- gradually it
1671 disappeared. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Now, there's another document that 4 you provided, which is a short newspaper article, it's 5 your number 17, which I would again request be projected. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: This is a short newspaper article, 10 and I believe it indicates on the top in faint 11 handwriting that it's from the London Free Press, some -- 12 perhaps April 4th, 1934. And it's very short, I should 13 like to read this article: 14 "The Township of Bosanquet, joined by 15 the Village of Thedford, and the Town 16 of Forest, are petitioning Provincial 17 and Federal Governments, to have Stoney 18 Point Indian Reserve, taken over as a 19 State Park. The Council of Bosanquet, 20 adopted a resolution, asking for this 21 move, and Thedford Council gave the 22 proposal support, and together these 23 Municipalities succeeded in securing 24 the strong cooperation of the Forest 25 Council.
1681 Control over rights and privileges 2 of Stoney Point Reserve has been a 3 subject of some controversy, leading to 4 the entrance being blocked upon one (1) 5 occasion. It has been in private 6 control, and is a popular lake resort 7 for the district. The area comprises 8 roughly over five hundred (500) acres, 9 extending from Kettle Point to Port 10 Franks on the shore of Lake Huron." 11 Now, sir, I believe you attended much of 12 the Hearings here, and you heard some Counsel suggesting 13 to one (1) of the expert witnesses, that people from 14 Stoney Point didn't seem to object at all after the 1928 15 surrender of part of the land, which became Ipperwash 16 Park. Do you recall that evidence? I don't know if you 17 were here for that, sir? 18 A: What year, sir? 19 Q: Sorry, there was a suggestion that 20 there was no -- no reaction against the 1928 sale of part 21 of Stoney Point Reserve, until many, many years later, 22 until the '90s perhaps. But this article seems to 23 suggest, it's 1934, we know that's before there was an 24 Ipperwash Park. It seems to suggest that people in 25 Stoney Point before 1934, were complaining about what had
1691 happened to their land up to that point. 2 Now is -- is that consistent with what you 3 know; could you shed any light on that? 4 A: Many different times they -- the -- 5 the county mentioned all this, you know, and we knew all 6 along every time that they said that, get the Stoney 7 Point or the strangling Indians off of there, how are we 8 going to handle them in Kettle Point, and amalgamate them 9 together, that was suggested many times, even by our -- 10 our -- our representative from the Indian Department. 11 So we voted that down all the time. We -- 12 we -- we strongly -- we strongly advised people that we 13 don't want to get -- get rid of our -- our lands. 14 Q: Now, we've heard a little bit that 15 after Dudley's death, and the -- and the years from then 16 to now, the people living at Stoney Point have sometimes 17 had some problems between them, between themselves in 18 living there as well. 19 Now, would you say that this is mainly due 20 to the fact that there hasn't been any formal arrangement 21 for their living there, or it's just sort of chaotic? 22 A: That -- that is -- that is part -- 23 part of the problem because -- because the Kettle Point 24 Council and -- and all them people has -- has no -- no 25 idea of even want to support of any of us, they still
1701 classify us as -- as wrongly -- wrongly entering Stoney 2 Point, which we strongly believe, if we didn't do that, 3 it still would have been a Cadet Camp today. 4 Q: You believe if you hadn't reoccupied 5 the land, -- 6 A: At the time we did -- 7 Q: -- it would still be a Cadet -- 8 A: Yes, Sir, it -- it 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- it would have been. 11 Q: But then also, do you know anything 12 about how it's being administered today? I mean, today 13 it's sort of informally, it seems, being run by people 14 from First Nations? 15 A: No, DND -- DND is totally in charge 16 of that -- that piece of property. They hire these 17 people to look after it. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: They pay them -- they pay them a wage 20 or whatever it is that they pay them. They're the ones 21 that -- that patrols the whole area, but it's paid by the 22 Department of National Defence, and there's been 23 controversies about that in -- in our negotiations. 24 They don't want to admit that -- that they 25 retook our land when they -- when they moved in again,
1711 after leaving completely and -- and giving us part -- 2 part of the deal and -- and allowing -- allowing the -- 3 the -- the -- the Hydro and all that stuff to go with it. 4 Because there's been a lot of 5 controversies on that, but they come in and somehow -- 6 somehow they -- somehow they -- they took control of that 7 again and hired these people, and that's the truth of it. 8 They are all working for DND right now. 9 Q: I see. 10 A: The guy -- the guys on a park, and 11 then the guy's -- the head guy that's looking after the 12 whole deal. That's well understood. 13 Q: Thank you very, very much, not only 14 for your testimony, but for everything you've done in 15 your life for Stoney Point. Thank you very, very much. 16 Thank you Mr. Commissioner. 17 A: Thank you, Sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much, Mr. Rosenthal. All right, Mr. Ross...? 20 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, my 21 questions have been sufficiently satisfied by the 22 previous Counsel. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much, Mr. Ross. 25 On behalf of the Chiefs of Ontario, I
1721 understand you are going to do it? 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: 4 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 5 A: Hi. 6 Q: I don't think I need to introduce 7 myself to you, but, for the purposes of the record I 8 will. My name is Jonathan George, and I represent the 9 Chipewas of Kettle and Stoney Point. 10 Now, I only have a few questions for you, 11 Mr. George, so I will be quite brief. And I will 12 attempt, to the best of my ability, to not be 13 duplicative, but there are a couple of issues that Mr. 14 Worme addressed with you, that I would like you to expand 15 upon. 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: The first thing is, is you didn't 18 know your grandfather? 19 A: Pardon? 20 Q: You didn't know your grandfather, you 21 had never met -- 22 A: Yes, I did, I lived with him for a 23 long time, I would visit him all the time and he -- he 24 was a -- he was a wonderful old man, an old friend of 25 mine.
1731 Q: Okay. 2 A: Mr. Tommy George. 3 Q: Okay. I understand that one of your 4 grandparents you didn't meet, died? 5 A: Well, that -- that is Levi Johnson, 6 my mother's -- my mother's father. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: He died in 1919 under the big flu 9 epidemic that they had just after the war. 10 Q: Okay. And his wife, your 11 grandmother, she lived at Stoney Point? 12 A: She -- she lived at Stoney Point 13 where I indicated, that brick house, she lived there 14 until expropriation and then she -- she was moved over to 15 Kettle Point. 16 Q: Okay. And your mother lived at 17 Kettle Point when she passed on? She was living on 18 Kettle Point when your grandmother passed away? 19 A: My mother -- my mother passed away in 20 1939. 21 Q: Okay. And when did your grandmother 22 pass away? 23 A: She passed away just about a year 24 after -- after the war. Somewhere around there. 25 Q: Okay and she was residing in Kettle
1741 Point. 2 A: She was residing in her own home in 3 Kettle Point. 4 Q: And you had -- you had mentioned your 5 siblings and you had two (2) brothers who went to the war 6 with you, Kenneth and Clarence? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And did -- are Kenneth and 9 Clarence younger or older than you? 10 A: They're older -- they're older than 11 myself. 12 Q: Okay. Did they go overseas at the 13 same time you did? 14 A: They were both -- no, not -- but 15 Kenneth George, he joined up the same outfit that I did. 16 But Clarence come later as a SDNG Highlanders and he got 17 wounded in going through Holland. 18 Q: Okay. And -- and I don't want to 19 jump around here, Mr. George, but you -- you had 20 indicated an incident where you and your wife had come 21 back after the war and attempted to set up location at 22 Kettle Point? 23 A: No not me and my wife. I went there 24 myself. 25 Q: Yourself? Okay. And you had a
1751 discussion with the Indian agent who told you that that 2 wasn't possible? 3 A: Yes, yes, I did. Mr. McCracken. 4 Q: Okay. Mr. McCracken. And are you 5 aware of your -- did your brother -- I understand at 6 least one of your brothers came home from the war after 7 you did? 8 A: Pardon? 9 Q: I understand that at least one of 10 your brothers came home from the war after you did? 11 A: They both did. I was the first one 12 back on account I was -- I was rushed right home on 13 account of long service and being in prison camp. 14 Q: Okay. And did your two (2) brothers 15 go live with your grandmother or your father or did they 16 have -- 17 A: Well just here and there until they 18 got settled down. Most -- most of us went directly to -- 19 to grandmother and -- and lived there for a while until 20 they got settled in. 21 Q: Are you aware of any similar 22 difficulties your brothers had, that you had with Mr. 23 McCracken? 24 A: Not that I know of. Probably had 25 some of them but they never ever mentioned it.
1761 Q: Okay. You had also indicated, Mr. 2 George, you cited an example of after the move in 1942. 3 I know you've heard this second-hand because you were -- 4 you were overseas at the time. 5 But you heard of examples of people who 6 didn't drink, start to drink after the move to Kettle 7 Point? 8 A: There were several of them that -- 9 that ended up that way and never drank in their lives 10 before that. Moses George and his wife, they had quite a 11 family and the frustrations of -- of moving and then not 12 -- not being able to work the way they did before because 13 they had specific places where they -- where they worked. 14 And different places they both worked together all over 15 the place. 16 And -- and that's where the frustration 17 culminate. They -- they first moved to Thedford where -- 18 where they couldn't along. And then from there that's 19 when they -- they went to Kettle Point to a home there 20 and it wasn't much different there for them. So that -- 21 that was the trauma of what some -- some of our old 22 people dealt with. He was a First War veteran. 23 Q: Did you either see or hear of higher 24 incidents of other things like family breakdown, people 25 having to rely on social assistance as opposed to
1771 working? Was there a higher incidents of that kind 2 of stuff as well? 3 A: Well it was made quite clear to us 4 that -- that they were very reluctant to -- to help 5 people out at that time in -- in social assistance or 6 anything like that. Like when we moved to -- when we 7 moved to Stoney Point, they weren't given nothing. 8 Yet -- yet they were classified as Kettle 9 Pointers yet they -- they never -- they never was allowed 10 to have any -- even the food banks we couldn't -- they 11 couldn't. 12 Because I went there to talk -- to talk 13 for them. I forced myself, I went there to talk to them 14 because I also came myself because I was getting -- I was 15 getting a fair pension, enough to live on. 16 Q: You also spoke very eloquently about 17 your -- your time overseas in the war? And you -- you 18 got into detail with respect to the battle in Dieppe and 19 being in Dieppe 20 A: I wasn't originally in Dieppe. No, I 21 went through there. We retook Dieppe when I went through 22 it -- when I through the whole deal. 23 Q: And -- and during that time you went 24 through Dieppe you spoke of how the people treated you 25 and how there was a parade?
1781 A: Yes, it was very touching and very 2 good you know, we pulled in with -- with a jeep, there's 3 four (4) of us, two (2) of us non-commissioned officers 4 and two (2) officers. 5 We just pulled in the middle and then we 6 got -- we got as far as halfway when -- when they -- 7 when they stopped us, as soon as they found out we were - 8 - we were allies. 9 And they -- they showered us with flowers, 10 cognac and you name it, they all come running out -- out 11 of the -- because I think everybody had a place in -- in 12 France, as a drinking place. So, they all come rushing 13 out and -- and give us all these, the big welcome. 14 Q: Did it ever strike you as ironic or 15 odd that you received that kind of treatment, when your 16 family was being treated the way they were back home? 17 A: You never had time to think of them 18 things, at least I didn't, because we're -- we're too 19 busy -- too busy trying to deal with the -- with the war 20 that was, because it's -- it was a job that -- that is 21 constantly on your mind, constantly dodging bullets, and 22 constantly doing that. 23 And I think the most of us, all we -- all 24 we ever concentrated on was God Almighty to help us 25 through this deal, because it is very few people, unless
1791 they're veterans, that can tell you how scary it is. So, 2 we didn't have time to think of home, except it's very 3 nice to get parcels, it's very nice to get letters from - 4 - from home. 5 Q: Did that irony or oddity ever strike 6 you later on in life, in reflecting back upon the war or 7 -- the expropriation in 1942? 8 A: Well -- well at times, yes, at times 9 it did become -- even just recently I went into a very, 10 very deep depression when I start seeing -- seeing the 11 invasion of France in -- in TV for -- for the first time. 12 13 I went into a deep -- I went into a deep 14 depression myself about two (2) months, but I pulled out 15 of it and now I can talk about it, because most of us 16 never was able to talk about dodging bullets and every -- 17 every bullet has your name on it, and all that goes with 18 it. 19 Q: And, Mr. George, you had also 20 discussed briefly when Mr. Worme was asking you 21 questions, about discussions you had with your father 22 about burials and burial practises, do you recall that? 23 A: Yes, in my early days, dad -- dad 24 told me about -- about this, he told me one (1) time when 25 we were walking through the bush, he says, see these
1801 apple trees, going along -- along the hill line. Every 2 place there had a home under it at one (1) time. 3 And -- and almost every place has a 4 burying place there. It's been proven by some of our 5 elders, that are very spiritual in that direction. They 6 can detect where -- where people are buried. 7 Q: So you were taught, or it was your 8 father's teaching that where there were apple trees -- 9 A: Most of -- most of that has one (1), 10 but he said there was several, like for instance, we were 11 walking by a cemetery, and he told me -- he told me at 12 one (1) time that over the next hill there was a Chief 13 buried there, he wanted to be -- he wanted to be buried 14 in a sitting position, so he could look after -- after 15 his people to the south. 16 Q: Did your father ever speak to you in 17 -- in terms of burial practises of gatherings, people who 18 lived on Stoney Point had at or around what we now know 19 as the Provincial Park? 20 A: No, there never was because nobody 21 lived there, except old -- old what do you call him, in 22 the earlier days there was. There could be some of them 23 were buried there, because that -- that was a regular 24 focal point for -- for all Reserves, because we invited 25 them over to use our flint, the very best of flint exists
1811 there, and still to this day there's some. 2 Q: So what we now know as the Provincial 3 Park was a gathering place? 4 A: Yes, they all -- they all 5 concentrated there, we invited them, they come there with 6 whole families, and that is why I say that -- and there's 7 no such thing as -- as two (2) families burying -- 8 burying people together, we buried our own -- our own 9 people wherever they -- they passed away, or wherever we 10 were living at the time. 11 And there was many sections in there along 12 that creek is mostly -- is where -- where they 13 concentrated on living for the summer, and then they'd go 14 home and they'd come back again next year, or different 15 people would come. 16 So there was -- there were -- there were - 17 - they lived there in the south end of that -- that park. 18 Here and now, the place, and like I say, when some of the 19 -- because they brought their old people with them and 20 their babies, and they brought everything -- the whole 21 family come with them, when they -- when they come there 22 every summer to -- to make their tools of the trade and 23 knives and all that stuff like that, they was from -- 24 from flint. 25 MR. JOHNATHAN GEORGE: Those are my
1821 questions, Commissioner. I would like to take the 2 opportunity to echo the earlier comments of Mr. 3 Klippenstein and thank you for your service to your 4 country and especially to the sacrifices you made for 5 Kettle and Stoney Point. 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 7 MR. JOHNATHAN GEORGE: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much, Mr. George. I think that the Province's 10 attorney has indicated a reasonable short cross- 11 examination; can we try to do that now? 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN FREEBORN: 14 Q: Mr. George, my name is Susan Freeborn 15 and I'm Counsel for the Province of Ontario and, again, I 16 would like to thank you very much for coming today and 17 sharing your -- your knowledge about the area and the 18 people. 19 I have only a couple of questions -- 20 A: Thank you. 21 Q: -- and they're generally about 22 Ipperwash Park and when you mentioned that Albert George 23 lived at the park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: What I didn't get from your earlier
1831 testimony was when Albert George lived at the park; can 2 you give me a time frame? 3 A: That was in the early days of my 4 childhood because I was a child when I first remember 5 moving there and I can't even tell you exactly when -- 6 when his wife died and when he moved to his -- his oldest 7 son's place. 8 But it was in that area of -- of the 9 1900's and say, the '20s and in the early '30s, somewhere 10 around there. 11 Q: You were born in 1920 were you? 12 A: I was born 1920, yes. 13 Q: So were you still -- you were -- you 14 were still a youngster when you visited your uncle; is 15 that what you were saying? 16 A: When I visit my uncle's? 17 Q: I'm sorry, not your uncle, when you 18 visited Albert George in his house? 19 A: Yes. I was very young then because 20 my -- my grandmother and her husband used to stop in and 21 there was a lot of people that used to stop there an 22 visit him because they're well known -- they were a well 23 known couple. 24 Q: Okay. And I confess I got the -- the 25 relationships rather mixed up; is Albert George your
1841 great-uncle? 2 A: No. Albert George is maybe a very 3 distant cousin. He was a -- he was a brother to my 4 grandfather, Tommy George. 5 Q: Okay. And he was Dudley George's 6 great-uncle -- or great-grandfather? 7 A: Great-grandfather, yes. 8 Q: Okay. Thank you. And how long did 9 Albert George live in the Park? 10 A: He was quite a -- he was a -- he was 11 quite a age as I -- as I recall. 12 Q: I'm sorry? 13 A: He was quite an age as I recall 14 possibly in his 80s and 90s. I know my grandfather lived 15 until he was ninety-six (96) years old, my own 16 grandfather Tommy George. So he was just -- just 17 somewhere around there himself, Albert George. 18 Q: Are you saying that he lived in the 19 house in the park until his 80s? 20 A: No. Like I told you before, his wife 21 passed away and -- and he -- he then lived all by himself 22 for a while and then he -- he moved to -- to -- to -- to 23 his oldest son's house and that's where -- that's where 24 he -- he stayed until he died. 25 Q: Okay. Could you -- how long was he
1851 living in the house then, to the best of your knowledge? 2 How long was he in the house before he -- 3 A: Many years that I know of. 4 Q: Many years? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And could you describe the location 7 of the house? 8 A: The house was in a -- in a -- in a -- 9 in the bush as we call it, way in the back -- back -- 10 back hills along the mud creek. He had -- he built a 11 home there just after the war and his only road was -- 12 was through the sand hills followed to Port Franks and 13 that's how they -- they got the place. 14 So the whole family was born there and 15 it's a large family and he lived all alone away -- 16 completely away from everybody but -- but we all knew 17 him. 18 Q: Did you -- we saw some of the 19 photographs that you had of -- of your early days; did 20 you happen to have any photographs of the house of Albert 21 George? 22 A: No. I -- well, there are some here 23 because -- because, as I understand it, Moses George took 24 that house from -- from the park and he used it while I 25 was there. He lived in that same house when he first got
1861 married; that was -- that's Bob George's oldest son. 2 And then he lived just -- he bought a 3 little piece of land, it's probably in documents. He -- 4 he bought the little piece of land in front of the -- 5 just -- just to the side of his father, Bob George's 6 place. And that's where they lived -- and that house was 7 moved to Kettle Point. 8 Q: Oh, so the house was moved to Kettle 9 Point? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And when was that? 12 A: In -- in the move. 13 Q: In -- in the -- 14 A: In the move of '42. 15 Q: -- move in the '40s? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. I think those are all my 18 questions, thank you very much. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much. We have left, Mr. Downard, on behalf of 21 former Premier Harris, and the Ontario Provincial Police 22 and the Ontario Provincial Police Association, has yet to 23 cross-examine. 24 Would you like to go now, in any 25 particular order?
1871 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm wondering, Mr. 4 Commissioner, again, before My Friend rises, whether we 5 might simply inquire of the witness if this might be an 6 appropriate time. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 8 hear who's going to be next? Are you going to be next? 9 No? 10 MR. PETER DOWNARD: We were just having 11 that discussion. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're just 13 having that discussion. Well, why don't we have an 14 adjournment now and let you have it and then we can 15 decide where we'll go from here. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 20 for fifteen (15) minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 3:03 p.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 3:18 p.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
1881 resumed. 2 MR. MARK SANDLER: Commissioner, I'm next 3 up and I will not finish my examination of this witness 4 today, and as you've heard there are others that will 5 also be following me. 6 And we've had a discussion involving all 7 parties, and we're -- we're of the view, that in the 8 circumstances, and given the length of time that the 9 witness has been on the stand, that it would be 10 appropriate to break at this point, subject to your 11 approval, and continue on, on the 20th. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I agree 13 with you, Mr. Sandler, we started early, at nine o'clock, 14 in the hope that we might finish, but if we're not going 15 to finish, there's no point to start a new cross- 16 examination now, that isn't going to finish. 17 So, I think -- 18 MR. MARK SANDLER: So you'll have to wait 19 with bated breath to hear my questions -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Bated 21 breath. 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- until the 20th. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We look 24 forward to seeing you when we return on September -- 25 MR. MARK SANDLER: Thank you.
1891 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the 20th. 2 So, I do think this is an appropriate time to adjourn, 3 it's been a long day, even though Mr. George thinks he's 4 still raring to go, I think he's had a long difficult day 5 and we should really end it. 6 Do you want to say something, Mr. Worme? 7 MR. DONALD WORME: No, I was -- I was 8 simply going to repeat for the record, that indeed, Mr. 9 George indicated to me that he is prepared to go, or 10 raring to go, to use your words. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, well I 12 think this would be an appropriate time to adjourn for 13 the day and to reconvene on half past 10:00, is that the 14 time? On Monday, September the 20th. Thank you all very 15 much. 16 17 (WITNESS RETIRES) 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 20 adjourned until Monday, September 20th, at 10:30 a.m. 21 22 --- Upon adjourning at 3:20 p.m. 23 24 25
1901 Certified Correct 2 3 4 5 6 7 ____________________ 8 Wendy Warnock 9 Court Reporter 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25