11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 September 9th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q.C. ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (Np) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Okin ) (Np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 18 (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) 25 Sue Freeborn )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (Np) Charles Narnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (Np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (Np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 STANLEY THOMPSON, Sworn 6 7 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 8 8 9 10 11 Certificate of Transcript 112 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-18 Kenneth Thompson CV. 9 4 P-19 Aerial photograph 24 5 P-20 Topographical map. 27 6 P-21 Topographical map (current 7 1990, published 1995) showing 8 area of Lambton Shores from 9 Sarnia to Kettle Point 31 10 P-22 Nautical chart. 33 11 P-23 Drawing prepared by Mr. 12 Thompson. 33 13 P-24 Binder of photographs taken 14 by Mr. Thompson. 59 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon resuming at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Justice Linden presiding. 5 Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 9 everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Thompson, you can 11 sit down for a moment. Just so that we can outline to 12 everyone what we anticipate happening today, is that we 13 will call Mr. Thompson. And Mr. Thompson will identify a 14 number of exhibits and explain a number of exhibits and 15 he will then -- we will then look at some photographs 16 that were taken by Mr. Thompson and under his direction. 17 The photographs today will simply be 18 identified, other than the photographs of the scene, 19 there are some other photographs that I've provided to My 20 Friends. All of the -- any of the forensic issues will 21 be dealt with at a later time with Mr. Thompson and he'll 22 be recalled to deal with all of the forensic issues. 23 We hope to do the viewing at three (3) -- 24 start at 3:00 or 3:30, depending on where we are in the 25 evidence of Mr. Thompson and -- so that's what we're
81 going to do this afternoon -- this morning and this 2 afternoon. 3 Now, I'd like to call Mr. Kenneth Stanley 4 Thompson. 5 6 KENNETH STANLEY THOMPSON, Sworn: 7 8 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And Commissioner -- Commissioner 10 you'll find in -- we -- I've put in front of you a -- a 11 book which we will eventually mark as an exhibit, but on 12 the inside cover of that black book that's in front of 13 you, Commissioner, there's a CV of Mr. Thompson and I 14 believe there's a copy in the copies that you have, Mr. 15 Thompson and -- 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: Is that your CV? 18 A: Yes, Mr. Commissioner, it is my CV. 19 Q: And perhaps we could simply mark the 20 copy of the CV as the next exhibit. It would P-18 and 21 there's a copy -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Eighteen 23 (18)? 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Mr. Registrar, on 25 the inside of the black binder that's in front of you.
91 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-18: Kenneth Thompson CV. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Now, I understand, Mr. Thompson, that 5 you're a Metropolitan Toronto Police Officer from 1964 to 6 1962? 7 A: That's correct, sir. 8 Q: And that part of your duties at -- as 9 a Police Officer with the Metropolitan Toronto Police 10 Force was as a Scenes of Crime Officer. Is that correct? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And can you tell us what a -- what it 13 means to be a Scenes of Crimes Officer? 14 A: Yes sir, I'd be happy to. In the 15 year 1991, the Metropolitan Toronto Police now known as 16 the Toronto Police Service, undertook a pilot project to 17 create a position of assistance to Forensic 18 Identification Officers who continued to be burdened with 19 rising crimes of a very serious and violent nature. 20 The -- the spirit and intention behind 21 this pilot project was to take experienced Field Patrol 22 Officers and to train them in the collection of physical 23 evidence and, in particular, the -- the collection of 24 fingerprint evidence and relevant crime scene 25 photography, generally in cases where property offences
101 were involved. The -- 2 Q: Go on. 3 A: The -- the pilot project was quite 4 successful. I became one (1) of the officers that was 5 involved in the -- in the training program. And it 6 consisted of a three (3) week, approximately hundred and 7 twenty (120) hour, very concentrated training program 8 done in-house by the Metropolitan Toronto Police by 9 Forensic Identification Investigators. 10 And the officers involved in the program 11 subsequently took tests and were qualified in what -- 12 what is known as the acronym becoming a SOCO officer, 13 Scenes of Crime Officer. 14 And the -- the spirit behind the -- behind 15 the position was to assist as an understudy, being 16 supervised, sometimes from a distance, by forensic -- 17 qualified Forensic Identification Officers on the Police 18 service. 19 Q: And after you left the Toronto Police 20 Force in 1992, I understand that you joined the Special 21 Investigation unit of the Ministry of the Attorney 22 General? 23 A: Yes, I did, sir. In -- in fact, at 24 that particular time, the -- the Special Investigation 25 was under the umbrella of the Solicitor General of
111 Ontario. And I think a year later the Special 2 Investigations Unit moved into the umbrella of the 3 Attorney General's Ministry. 4 Q: And can you tell us what the role of 5 the Special Investigation Unit is? 6 A: The Special Investigations Unit was 7 created by Order in Council and receives its authority 8 from Section 113 of the Police Services Act. 9 In that Act, I will paraphrase the -- the 10 mandate of the Special Investigations Unit by saying that 11 the Special -- the Police Services in Ontario must notify 12 the Special Investigations Unit in the event that a 13 member of the public dies or receives serious injury 14 while involved with Police Officers in Ontario. 15 In -- in the legislation, Police Officers 16 are required to co-operate with the Special 17 Investigations Unit and the Director and investigators 18 are Peace Officers. 19 And I think that's an overview of -- of 20 the -- of the mandate of the Special Investigations Unit. 21 Q: And you were with the Special 22 Investigations Unit from 1992 to 2000, at which time you 23 retired from that position? 24 A: That's right, sir. 25 Q: And I understand that your positions
121 at the SIU were as Lead Forensic Identification 2 Investigator. Is that correct? 3 A: That's right, sir. 4 Q: And you were also the -- a Technical 5 Traffic Collision Analyst? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: And can you just tell us what the 8 duties of the Lead Forensic Identification Investigator 9 were? 10 A: The duties of the Lead Investigator, 11 Forensic Identification services are to -- in co- 12 ordination and under the direction of the lead 13 investigator of -- of a mandated SIU case to attend 14 scenes; to collect relevant physical evidence; to take 15 photographs of injuries as far as victims injuries; to 16 gather and measure data at the particular scene with 17 respect to preparing scene diagrams at a later date. 18 The photographic examinations involve the 19 taking of video photographs, still photographs and at -- 20 in those days, Polaroid photographs as well. 21 Q: And the position of Technical Traffic 22 Collision Analyst, can you just explain what that means? 23 A: Yes, the Technical Traffic Analyst 24 position is what used to be described as a Level 3 25 Traffic Collision Investigator, involves the attendance
131 at collision scenes; the collisions of motor vehicles and 2 other vehicles and things; the -- the examination of 3 relevant physical evidence on roadways, including victim 4 photography, video photographs, very similar to that of a 5 Forensic Identification Officer. 6 In addition to applying the laws of 7 physics to the movement and -- and operation of motor 8 vehicles in relation to finding out the cause and 9 sequence of events of collisions. 10 Q: Okay, and I understand that after you 11 joined the SIU in 1992 that you continued with your 12 training? 13 A: I did. 14 Q: And that if you could just turn to 15 Page 3 of Exhibit P-18 there are a number of courses that 16 are -- are referred to and training programs that are 17 referred to in Exhibit P-18. 18 But if I might just take you to the period 19 1992 to 1999 which appears on page 3 of -- you took a 20 course, the General Investigation Techniques course at 21 the Ontario Police College? 22 A: Yes, sir, I did. That was in the 23 year 1992. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: That is a -- that is a course for
141 generalist Police Officers, usually assigned to criminal 2 investigations, and outlines and -- and trains the Police 3 Officers and detectives involved in the course in state 4 of the art techniques, in interview techniques, 5 application of the law and other useful investigative 6 techniques. 7 Q: And you also took a course, a 8 Technical Traffic Collision Analyst course, Level 3, at 9 the Ontario Provincial Police Academy? And when did you 10 take that course, sir, and what did it entail? 11 A: That course took place in 1992, sir, 12 in the late year of 1992 and -- at which time I attended 13 a very concentrated three (3) week course in the 14 technical -- the science and -- and applied science and 15 technology of the technical traffic collision analyst's 16 role, involving examinations of collision scenes; 17 vehicles; equipment and photography; scene diagramming; 18 and virtually the same duties as --as undertaken by 19 technical investigators. 20 Q: Okay, and you then took a course, 21 Scenes of Crime Officers course from the Ontario Police 22 College, and again, what year did you take that, sir? 23 A: That was in the spring of 1993, sir. 24 Q: And can you tell us what that course 25 entailed?
151 A: This course was -- 2 Q: And how long it was. 3 A: This was course was a -- a very 4 concentrated course. I believe it was five (5) weeks in 5 length and it entailed many of the state of the art 6 techniques in the gathering of forensic evidence; crime 7 scene photography; collection of fingerprint evidence; 8 collection of trace evidence; the casting of footwear 9 impressions; all of the current state of the art methods 10 in gathering and collecting and protecting physical 11 evidence at -- at crime scenes and incident scenes. 12 Q: And I take it that you successfully 13 completed that course and the earlier courses that you 14 referred us to? 15 A: Yes, sir, that's right. 16 Q: And you also took a Forensic 17 Identification course with the Ontario -- at the Ontario 18 Police College? Is that correct? 19 A: Yes, that's right, sir. 20 Q: And that was in 1993? 21 A: That was also in 1993, the fall and 22 early winter of 1993, sir. 23 Q: And can you tell us what that 24 entailed? 25 A: The Forensic Identification Officer's
161 course is a highly concentrated, multi-week course which 2 zeros in, mainly, on the identification and 3 individualization skills of collecting fingerprint 4 evidence 5 Other techniques involving the collection 6 of -- of relevant evidence using chemical processes are 7 also involved and large -- large format photography and 8 film development was also taught extensively in -- in 9 that course. 10 It was a highly concentrated course in 11 that the -- the art and science of fingerprint 12 individualization was taught and anyone successfully 13 completing this particular course would then be qualified 14 to examine and individualize fingerprints. 15 Q: And did you successfully complete 16 this course, sir? 17 A: I did, sir, as the oldest member of 18 the class. 19 Q: And you became a -- a qualified 20 Forensic Identity Officer? 21 A: I did sir, yes. 22 Q: And then I note that you as well took 23 a course, Scientific Content Analysis of Statements 24 course from the Ontario Police College? 25 A: Yes.
171 Q: And when was that, sir? 2 A: I believe that was in 1995, sir. 3 Q: And you also took a course at 4 Carleton University under the -- I guess with the RCMP 5 and the OPP, Bloodstain Pattern Recognition? 6 A: Yes, that's right. 7 Q: And when was that, sir? 8 A: That was in 1998, sir. 9 Q: And I note that you've been -- I'm 10 not going to go through them all, a number of workshops 11 and seminars that you attended, particularly in the -- in 12 the '90s. Is that correct? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And that all related to your work as 15 lead forensic identification investigator? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And the -- as I understand it, on 18 September 7th, 1995 you were assigned to investigate the 19 shooting of Anthony O'Brien George, known as Dudley 20 George? Is that correct? 21 A: Yes, sir. I did receive direction to 22 attend that -- 23 Q: And -- 24 A: -- particular case. 25 Q: -- what were your duties?
181 A: My duties were to -- upon 2 instructions of the lead investigator, Mr. Wayne Allen, 3 to attend the Strathroy Hospital to take victim 4 photographs of two (2) individuals that were in the 5 Strathroy -- one (1) individual that was in the Strathroy 6 Hospital, and one (1) that was in the Strathroy OPP 7 Detachment. 8 Q: And that -- and they were Mr. Bern 9 Cecil George and Mr. Nicholas Cotrelle? 10 A: Yes, I examined and interviewed 11 briefly Mr. Cecil Bernard George at the Strathroy 12 Hospital and photographed his injuries and also later 13 attended the OPP Detachment in Strathroy and met a young 14 person, Nicholas Catrelle, who at that time was sixteen 15 (16) years of age and I examined his injuries and also 16 photographed them. 17 Q: And can you just sort of generally 18 tell us, because we'll -- we're going to get in when you 19 come back into more detail, about what you did, but can 20 you just give us a general overview of the things that 21 you did as part of your investigation in the fall of -- 22 in September of 1995? 23 A: Yes. Firstly, Mr. Commissioner, I 24 would -- I would ask that I be permitted to refer to my 25 notes and working diagrams and drawings which were
191 contemporaneously done by me during this investigation. 2 I -- I do have an independent recollection 3 of the events surrounding the death of Anthony O'Brien 4 George. However, through the passage of time, I would 5 appreciate being able to refresh my memory. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I presume 7 that no one would have any objection to that. That's 8 fine. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Now what I -- I'm not asking for a 12 detailed review, just simply an overview at this point, 13 Mr. Thompson, but if you need to look at your notes, 14 please go ahead. 15 A: Thank you. My -- my first task 16 involving this case was, in fact, to examine Cecil 17 Bernard George and Nicholas Catrelle in Strathroy. 18 Following -- following that examination, I 19 attended at -- at Sarnia, met the SIU investigative team, 20 including Mr. Wayne Allen, the -- the lead investigator, 21 spelt A-L-L-E-N. 22 And after being briefed on the events and 23 what the investigative processes had occurred so far at 24 that point, I then went to the Forest Detachment of the 25 Ontario Provincial Police and collected firearms that had
201 actually been fired or were believed to have been fired 2 in this particular fatality. 3 Q: Yes. And you subsequently 4 participated in the autopsy, as I understand it? 5 A: Yes, sir, I did. 6 Q: And you attended at the scene of the 7 shooting in September of 1995? 8 A: Yes, sir, I did. 9 Q: And you attended, I believe, on 10 September 18th, 1995? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And on September 18th of 1995, can 13 you tell us what you did at the scene? 14 A: Yes, on September the 18th the SIU 15 and Ontario Provincial Police were permitted to examine 16 the roadway scene of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp 17 Road in the municipality of Bosanquet which is, I 18 believe, in Lambton county, now known as Lambton Shores. 19 The scene was cordoned off by yellow crime 20 scene barrier tape and the scene examination was done in 21 conjunction with the Ontario Provincial Police under the 22 guidance and assistance of First Nations people who were 23 assigned as observers to the forensic examination teams. 24 Q: And the members of the First Nations 25 were from other First Nations, not the Kettle and Stoney
211 Point First Nation? 2 A: That's right. And in, I think, all 3 cases the First Nations observers were respected Elders 4 of various First Nations territories in the Ontario area. 5 In -- in my particular case, I was escorted by Mr. Marvin 6 Connor of the Oneida First Nations. 7 Q: Okay. And as I understand it, as 8 part of your duties at the SIU you prepared a number of 9 exhibits and maps? Is that correct? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: And we've got on the easel, a large 12 aerial photograph. Was that aerial photograph an aerial 13 photograph that you obtained? 14 A: Yes, it was, sir. 15 Q: And can you tell us what the aerial 16 photograph shows, Mr. Thompson? 17 A: Yes. May I leave the -- 18 Q: Yes, there's a microphone -- 19 A: Could you turn the microphone on, 20 please. 21 Q: There's a microphone at the end of 22 the table and there's a pointer behind the easel. 23 Firstly, can you tell us -- you know what 24 year this photograph is? 25 A: Yes, sir. This -- this photograph is
221 an aerial photograph taken from twenty-six thousand 2 (26,000) feet and it was taken, I understand, on -- in 3 April of 1990. And it is essentially an aerial 4 photograph of the Bosanquet/Lambton Shores area and I'm 5 going to point right now to what is now the Aazhoodena 6 First Nations territory in the upper left corner of the 7 aerial photograph. 8 Q: Now, what you're pointing to is, the 9 -- at the intersection of Army Camp Road and Highway 21? 10 A: That's right, sir. 11 Q: And if -- I take it that in this 12 photograph -- this aerial photograph, north is at the 13 top? 14 A: That's right, sir, north is in this 15 direction -- 16 Q: And -- 17 A: -- as I point the pointer, hold it 18 against the -- against the map or the photograph -- 19 Q: -- and in this direction, here, 20 really it's north -- in a northwesterly -- northeasterly 21 direction on the aerial photograph. 22 A: That's -- that's right, sir -- 23 Q: And -- 24 A: Sorry. 25 Q: -- and on the aerial photograph the
231 left-hand side, as we're looking at it, is west. Is that 2 correct? 3 A: Yes, this is west, sir, and Lake 4 Huron is the dark area at the very north or the upper 5 left corner of the -- of the photograph. 6 Q: And on the right hand part of the 7 photograph it is the -- facing east. Is that correct? 8 A: That's correct. This is the easterly 9 limit of the -- of the photograph. 10 Q: And on the aerial photograph, can you 11 -- Army Camp Drive -- road -- Army Camp Road, can you 12 point that out running north from Highway 21? 13 A: Yes, I'm -- for the benefit of the 14 reporter, I'm moving the pointer in a northerly direction 15 along Army Camp Road and I'm now pointing to a -- an area 16 that is surrounded in red markings -- square markings. 17 And within that perimeter is the relevant area of Army 18 Camp Road and East Parkway Drive. 19 Q: And you put the red markings on this 20 aerial photograph? 21 A: Yes, sir, I did. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And perhaps, 23 Commissioner, we could mark this as Exhibit P-19 before 24 we go much further and I neglect to do that. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. P-19.
241 2 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-19: Aerial photograph 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And the -- it's -- is it your 6 understanding that the Army Camp Road is the westerly 7 limit of the former army camp? 8 A: That's right. The understanding that 9 I have is that Army Camp Road is the westerly limit of 10 the former Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash Q: And 11 the southerly limit is Highway 21? 12 A: That -- that is correct, sir. 13 Highway 21, as I'm pointing, is the southerly limit, to 14 my understanding. 15 Q: And then there's a road that appears 16 to run from Highway 21 north of -- from Highway 21 to 17 Lake Huron which is the first road east of Army Camp Road 18 and as I understand, that's called Outer Drive and it is 19 -- is it your understanding that is the easterly limit of 20 the former army camp? 21 A: Yes, that's right, sir. This -- I'm 22 pointing to Outer Drive, I believe it is, and it runs 23 generally parallel to Army Camp Road, some distance east 24 of -- of Army Camp Road and running northerly from 25 Highway 21.
251 Q: And then if I could take you to the 2 top of the map, is it your understanding that generally 3 the northern boundary of the former army camp is Lake 4 Huron, except for Ipperwash Provincial Park, and there's 5 another portion on the easterly limit? 6 A: That's right, sir, and in fact, I'm 7 briefly with the pointer, outlining the area of the 8 former Ipperwash Provincial Park as I know it, and it's 9 just immediately east of the red perimeter that is -- is 10 marked. 11 Q: And there's a road -- you're pointing 12 to a road that runs east from Army Camp Road, and then 13 north to Lake Huron? 14 A: That's right, sir. 15 Q: And it's my understanding that that's 16 known as Matheson Drive? 17 A: Yes, that is my understanding as 18 well, sir. 19 Q: And the -- if I could ask you to -- 20 onto your right, Mr. Thompson, there's a topographical 21 map... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And as I understand it, this is a
261 topographical map produced by the Government of Canada, 2 and it was -- it's dated on the lower left-hand side, I 3 believe it's 1990 -- printed in 1994. 4 A: Yes, sir, that's right, printed in 5 1994 and based on -- based on a survey with current 6 information on it, being 1990. 7 Q: And the label on that topographical 8 map is a -- I believe there's a -- a map number on it, 9 Mr. Thompson? 10 A: It's the -- the map is described as 11 Parkhill, Ontario and it's designated by the Energy and 12 Mines and Resources Ministry, the Federal Government, as 13 being 40P-4. 14 Q: And you obtained this particular map 15 and created this particular exhibit, it was an exhibit at 16 one (1) of the earlier Proceedings, was it not? 17 A: It was, sir, yes. 18 Q: And can you point out for us on the 19 map, the area of the former army camp, it's in the upper 20 left-hand side of the -- of the drawing, as you look at 21 it. The topographical map? 22 A: Yes, sir, I will. What I'm doing 23 right now with the pointer, I'm outlining the former 24 Ipperwash Canadian Forces Base, I'm indicating now 25 Highway 21, what is known as Outer Drive on the eastern
271 boundary, and I'm now pointing to the Army Camp Road, 2 running in a northerly direction towards Lake Huron. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And perhaps, 4 Commissioner, if we could mark this as the next exhibit, 5 it would be Exhibit P-20. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Twenty (20). 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-20: Topographical map. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And I believe that the scale of this 12 map is one (1) inch to one (1) mile. There's both the 13 metric and -- the scale on it. 14 A: Yes, that's right, one (1) inch 15 equals one (1) mile on this map. 16 Q: And the... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Perhaps, Mr. Thompson, you could hold 21 your -- the mike away from the -- a little bit away from 22 -- you're a little bit too close to the mike, I'm told, 23 so that the -- the mikes are very sensitive, and so that 24 you and I both have had the same problem, I've been too 25 close to it and I'm told that you're too close to it as
281 well. So, if you could just -- 2 A: Is this a better distance? 3 Q: I think that's right. They're very 4 sensitive, so we both have to be careful of that. 5 Can you tell us on this map, briefly, 6 you've pointed out the former Army Camp. Can you point 7 out on Exhibit P-20 the location of -- of the Ipperwash 8 Provincial Park? 9 A: Yes, sir. The Ipperwash -- former 10 Ipperwash Provincial Park is outlined by a small, dark 11 line in the upper left corner of this particular map. 12 And it's, in fact, the upper left corner of what is now 13 the Aazhoodena First Nations, or -- which was formerly 14 known as the Ipperwash Canadian Forces base. 15 Q: And what is it the -- former Army 16 Camp labelled on Exhibit P-20, Mr. Thompson? 17 A: It's -- it's indicated as Ipperwash 18 range and training area. 19 Q: And on this Exhibit P-20 is Kettle 20 Point portion of the Kettle and Stoney Point First Nation 21 shown on the map? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: Kettle Point is at the extreme left 25 edge of the -- of the map, marked in -- in pink.
291 Q: And can you point out on Exhibit P- 2 20, Forest? 3 A: The town of Forest is right at the 4 extreme left edge of the -- of the map, approximately at 5 the centre. 6 Q: And it's labelled, "Forest"? 7 A: It is -- it is labelled a designated 8 forest. 9 Q: And can you point out on Exhibit P-20 10 the Thedford -- town of Thedford? 11 A: Thedford is -- is right -- 12 approximately south of the -- of the former Canadian 13 Forces Base Ipperwash. 14 Q: Okay. And if I could ask you to go 15 to the next -- topographical map which is leaning against 16 the ... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Thank you. 21 Q: I'm told on television that it comes 22 across unclear on the -- on the transmission, so ... 23 A: I will. 24 Q: Now, this is a topographical map that 25 you obtained from the Government of Canada as well?
301 A: Yes, sir. This is the Ministry of 2 Energy, Mines, and Resources Canada, as well. 3 Q: And it's labelled "Brights Grove" I 4 believe, on the upper right hand corner, forty (40) 5 oblique stroke... 6 A: Yes, sir. Forty (40) -- forty hyphen 7 zero oblique one (40-0/1). 8 Q: Okay. And what is the date on this 9 topographical map, Mr. Thompson? 10 A: The information is current as of 1990 11 and this was published in 1995. 12 Q: And this shows the portion of what is 13 now known as Lambton Shores from Sarnia on the left to 14 Kettle Point on the right? Is that correct? 15 A: That's correct, sir. 16 Q: And it shows on the right hand side 17 the town of Forest? 18 A: It does. 19 Q: And this map is the map immediately 20 west of Exhibit P-20, that we just looked at? 21 A: That's right, sir. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And perhaps we could 23 mark this, Commissioner, as Exhibit P-21. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-21. Thank 25 you.
311 2 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-21: Topographical map (current 1990, 3 published 1995) showing area of 4 Lambton Shores from Sarnia to 5 Kettle Point. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Then the next and last topographical 9 map was also a map obtained from you -- by you, is that 10 correct? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: That's right, sir. This, in fact, is 15 a -- is a nautical chart which I felt would be relevant 16 to any -- any hearings in this matter. What -- what 17 this particular chart shows is the shoreline from Sarnia 18 to Bayfield. 19 And in the -- in the centre, approximately 20 in the centre of the particular map is indicated by my 21 pointer as Kettle Point, approximately where the pointer 22 is now. 23 This is the -- true north is in this 24 particular direction shown by the -- by the pointer right 25 now.
321 Q: And what -- the pointer is really on 2 an angle, but a 45 degree angle pointing north-east as 3 you look at this particular map. 4 A: That's right, sir. 5 Q: And this map, as you indicated, is a 6 map put out by the Government of Canada? 7 A: Yes, it is. I -- I believe it's 8 commissioned by the -- bear with me, please. I believe 9 this is commissioned by the Canadian Hydrographic 10 Services and what it does is it -- it tells us mostly the 11 -- the bathographic information concerning the water. 12 It's a nautical chart used by mariners, primarily. 13 However, the shoreline is quite relevant 14 in -- in our particular circumstances, I believe. To the 15 -- to the east, or to the right of -- of Kettle Point is 16 shown Ipperwash Provincial Park which is -- I'm just 17 holding the pointer underneath it right now. 18 Q: Okay, and as well, the former Army 19 Camp is labelled as such on that map, I believe? 20 A: Yes, that's right. 21 Q: And what is the description on -- 22 A: The description on this chart is 23 "Ipperwash Military Reserve." 24 Q: Okay. And perhaps, Commissioner, we 25 could mark this Exhibit P-22?
331 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-22. Thank 2 you. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-22: Nautical chart. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: Now the last document that you could 8 pull up. And if you'd just bear with me for a minute, 9 Mr. Thompson. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: The document that is on the easel 14 right now is -- as I understand it, a drawing that you 15 prepared? 16 A: That's right, sir. 17 Q: And perhaps we could mark that, 18 before we go on, as Exhibit P-23, Commissioner? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-23. Thank 20 you. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-23: Drawing prepared by Mr. Thompson. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And it shows the intersection of East
341 Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road. 2 A: That's right, sir. 3 Q: And perhaps, Mr. Thompson, you could 4 tell us -- it's my understanding that you measured -- 5 made the measurements for this sketch, or this drawing, 6 excuse me, on September 20th, 1995? Is that correct? 7 A: That is right. 8 Q: And that, as it's noted in the lower 9 right-hand corner, you referred to a municipal survey 10 dated August the 1st, 1995? 11 A: That's right, sir. 12 Q: And can you just explain to us the 13 inter-relation between your sketch and the -- the drawing 14 that you've done and the municipal survey? 15 A: The reason for my referral to the 16 municipal drawing or plan was to validate any 17 measurements that I had made on the September 20, 1995. 18 It was a -- it was a way of authenticating 19 the roadways and the particular landmarks that are 20 noteworthy in this particular situation, i.e., the -- for 21 example the hydro poles and -- and various road 22 alignments. 23 Q: Okay. Perhaps we could -- what I've 24 done, Commissioner, is put up on the large screen and 25 perhaps, Mr. Thompson, we could refer to the large
351 screen and if you want to just go back -- hopefully that 2 mike will take you back. 3 Unfortunately, the electronic reproduction 4 is not as sharp as I would have liked it but the -- I 5 think that it can -- it'll help us -- it will simply have 6 to do because it's what we've got. 7 Now, perhaps Mr. Thompson, if -- and if 8 necessary, I've got a small version of your map that I 9 can just give to you because it's not very clear on the 10 Exhibit P-23 as it's projected on the screen. 11 Starting with the scale, can you tell us 12 what the scale is? 13 A: The scale on this particular drawing 14 is one to one hundred (1:100) and it's indicated in the 15 title block near the bottom right-hand corner of the -- 16 of the diagram. 17 Q: And can you tell us what a scale of 18 one to one hundred (1:100) means in layman's terms? 19 A: Yes, 1 centimetre on this particular 20 diagram or in actual fact, the -- the hard copy diagram 21 that's on the easel -- 22 Q: P-23. 23 A: -- P-23 would be equivalent to 100 24 centimetres on the ground, literally measured on the 25 ground, on the roadways or anywhere in -- in the area
361 outlined by the perimeter of the map or the -- or the 2 drawing, I should say. 3 In other words, 1 metre on the original 4 drawing would be equivalent to 100 metres on the ground. 5 Q: And so 1 centimetre would be the 6 equivalent of 1 metre? 7 A: That's right, sir. 8 Q: And if we could just start on the 9 left- hand side of the drawing, there's a legend and -- 10 up in the left -- upper left-hand corner and, as I take 11 it, the fence or a fence line is indicated on the drawing 12 Exhibit P-23 with a line and X's, is that correct? 13 A: That's right, sir. 14 Q: And then the legend also identifies a 15 garbage container and that's in G -- with the letter 'G', 16 although that's not very clear. 17 A: That's correct, sir. 18 Q: And I'll come to that in a moment but 19 then there are concrete blocks identified and that's with 20 a 'B', is that correct? 21 A: That's right, Sir. 22 Q: And then the hydro pole is identified 23 on your drawing with a zero H P (0HP). Is that correct? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And then trees are identified with --
371 by these types of drawings that I'm pointing to. They're 2 a representation of trees? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you have two (2) different types 5 there? 6 A: Yes, I do. 7 Q: And what does the -- why do you have 8 two (2) different types of -- 9 A: The -- 10 Q: -- tree representations? 11 A: The -- the representation on the left 12 indicates a -- indicates a solitary tree which is -- 13 should be noticeable on photographs. 14 The designation on the right indicates a 15 lower level combination of brush and -- and -- and 16 shrubs. In this case, many of the brush and shrub 17 vegetations consist of Sumac and -- and Tag Alder and 18 various types of greenery that's found on fence lines. 19 Q: And then the asphalt roadway is 20 identified on the drawing Exhibit P-23 with the -- it's 21 outlined in two (2) parallel lines; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. Two (2) parallel lines and 23 there's a -- a speckled texture or -- or designation in 24 between the lines which I don't think can be seen on the 25 overhead projection.
381 Q: Now if we could start from the left- 2 hand side of this drawing, looking at it, and I'm 3 pointing with the cursor to the left -- the left-hand 4 side of the drawing and there's a representation of trees 5 or shrubs. 6 Can you tell us what that indicates? 7 A: Yes. The -- the markings that you're 8 pointing to right now indicate low -- low level shrubs 9 and brush as compared to large individual trees. The 10 brush is rather dense in its -- in its configuration and 11 in that particular area, I believe, there is a 12 preponderance of Sumac trees. 13 Q: And right below the -- my -- where 14 the cursor is now, there's a block with the letter "G" 15 and I take it that that represents that there was a 16 garbage container there when you were there on September 17 20th, 1995? 18 A: That's right. And, in fact, that was 19 a -- a wooden garbage container with -- with a lid. 20 Q: And immediately to the right is a 21 driveway to, I believe it is Number 8942. Can you, 22 perhaps -- it's clearer on the original of Exhibit P-23, 23 Mr. Thompson. 24 A: Yes, that's the driveway entrance to 25 Number 6842 on East Parkway Drive. 6842 would be the
391 municipal address of that particular driveway. 2 Q: And then as we move to the east and 3 to the right on this drawing, you've indicated on your 4 drawing more trees or shrubs; is that correct? 5 A: Yes, I have. 6 Q: And you've also identified a hydro 7 pole where the cursor is now? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And I take it that hydro pole was 10 there on the ground on the day that you took these 11 measurements? 12 A: Yes, it was standing vertically and 13 in -- in place at that point and I, in fact, referred to 14 it as my reference point for baseline measurements. 15 Q: And then moving -- can you recall 16 what the trees and shrubs at this point were composed of? 17 A: Again, these were low-lying shrubs 18 and scrub brush. Not any great number of large, 19 individual trees and I seem to recall a preponderance of 20 Tag Alder and Sumac in that area as well. 21 Q: And then there's an indication of a - 22 - immediately to the right of the trees and shrubs, of a 23 fence; is that correct? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And can you recall or you need to
401 look at your notes, what that -- can you describe that 2 fence for us? 3 A: I believe that that was a wooden 4 fence that, at the time, was consist -- consisted of two 5 (2) horizontal boards attached to fence posts that were 6 approximately two (2) or three (3) metres apart. 7 Q: And then moving to the right there's 8 another entrance, a driveway, and can you tell us by 9 reference to P-23 the number that's on the driveway. 10 It's unclear on the screen copy. 11 A: Yes, that's the municipal address of 12 E-1102 -- E-1102. 13 Q: So that the description is Driveway 14 2, Number E-1102? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And then immediately to the right of 17 the description Driveway Number E-1102, there's another 18 indication of a fence. Is that correct, Mr. Thompson? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that fence ran north or to the 21 top of the P-23, is that correct? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And can you recall what that fence 24 consisted of? 25 A: Yes, as my memory serves me, that
411 fence is a -- also a -- consists of a -- a two (2) board 2 type of fence, fastened to fence posts and it's -- as the 3 fence similarly is on the west side of the driveway of E- 4 1102 it is rather a low fence. 5 In other words, it would be less than -- 6 less than one (1) metre in height, as my memory serves 7 me. 8 Q: Well, we might see as well in the 9 photographs that we'll go to. But can you tell us -- 10 there's a description immediately to the right of the 11 fence, "sand/ grass shoulder". Is that correct? 12 A: Yes, that's right, sir. 13 Q: And that indicates that there was a - 14 - can you tell us what that refer -- what that refers to? 15 A: Well, it -- it refers exactly to 16 that, Mr. Millar. It's -- it's a rather flat sand 17 shoulder that has sparse grass vegetation on it and at 18 the extreme east edge of the -- of the west side of the - 19 - of the roadway, your arrow right now is -- is 20 indicating what has been referred to by most individuals 21 familiar with this area as the sand lot or parking lot. 22 And the -- the edge of the -- the edge of 23 the grass-covered boulevard or roadway is not clearly 24 distinct. It is -- it varies in width depending on the 25 traffic that used -- using the -- using the sand collar -
421 - the sand parking lot or access to the -- to the 2 waterfront of Lake Huron. 3 Q: And this road -- this --it's 4 described on P-23 as the "sand covered roadway" and, as I 5 understand it, it leads to Lake Huron? 6 A: Yes, it does, sir. I -- I know it as 7 a -- as a right-of-way which is used by the -- by the 8 public to have access to the -- to the water area. 9 Q: And, in fact, where I'm pointing with 10 the cursor on the upper right-hand side of the electronic 11 version of P-23 it says "to Lake Huron" with an arrow 12 pointing to the top of Exhibit P-23. 13 A: Indeed that's right. 14 Q: Now, if we could go back for a moment 15 to the left side of the drawing. Actually, before we go 16 there, there's a "B" that I'm pointing out with the 17 cursor that is at -- just to the right of the entrance 18 described on P-23 as Number 1102. That represents a 19 concrete block? 20 A: It does, sir. 21 Q: And do you know if that concrete 22 block was there on the roadway on September the 6th, 23 1995. 24 A: No, I don't. 25 Q: It was there when you took the
431 measurements and you did your sketch from those 2 measurements? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And as well, while we're at it, 5 there's an indication of a "B" where my -- just 6 immediately to the right and a little bit towards the 7 bottom of P-23. 8 Again, the "B" refers to a concrete block, 9 is that correct? 10 A: Yes, sir, that's right. 11 Q: And do you know when that concrete 12 block was placed on the roadway? 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: And if we could go to the left-hand 15 side of Exhibit P-23, there's an indication of a -- trees 16 and shrubs of where the cursor is right now, on the left- 17 hand side? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And can you recall what -- what was 20 there? And we'll -- perhaps we'll see it again in the 21 photographs, but can you just describe what you're 22 referring to -- what you meant to depict with the -- on 23 this drawing? 24 A: What I'm attempting to describe in 25 that particular area is some shrubbery, mixed with
441 individual trees. I believe the vegetation is primarily 2 cedar trees, small cedar trees that have been -- they 3 were covered with vine-like vegetation. 4 There is a -- there's a fence line 5 immediately north of -- of that vegetation and I -- I 6 believe there was even some poison ivy in the ditch, as 7 my memory serves me. 8 Q: And immediately there's -- 9 immediately to the north of the depiction of the trees, 10 there's a description on the Exhibit P-23, I believe it 11 says "ditch". 12 Is that correct? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And was there a ditch there? 15 A: Yes, it was. It's rather a 16 substantial ditch. 17 Q: Can you describe that ditch for us, 18 or if you need a look at your notes. 19 A: I would describe the ditch as being 20 at least a metre in depth, perhaps more, and it -- the -- 21 the slope of the ditch towards -- from the roadway to the 22 -- to the fence line was rather steep -- rather steep 23 embankment. 24 Q: And how -- can you tell us how wide 25 the ditch was?
451 A: I don't have a specific -- specific 2 measurement. However, I can, with the permission of the 3 Commissioner, use a -- use a scale to give you some idea 4 of that on the original drawing. 5 Q: Sure, that would be fine. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: I regret that I don't have a specific 10 dimension on the width of the ditch but I will be able to 11 tell you that the distance between the fence line and the 12 -- the paved roadway of East Parkway Drive measured right 13 above where the -- the word "ditch" is, is four (4) 14 metres in width. 15 Q: Okay, thank you. Then moving to the 16 right, can you describe for us the fence that runs along 17 the southern -- south of east of Parkway Drive on Exhibit 18 P-23? I take it that is a fence depiction? 19 A: It is a fence depiction. Yes, sir, 20 and it, in fact, was at that time what I would describe 21 as a page wire fence. 22 Q: And can you tell us what a page wire 23 fence is, Mr. Thompson? 24 A: A page wire fence is a -- is a type 25 of fence used commonly in farms to keep animals and
461 livestock contained and it consists of wire that is woven 2 at right angles with squares woven in -- into the wire, 3 approximately -- well, wide enough for a foot to get into 4 the -- into the -- into the mesh and assist you to get 5 over the fence. 6 Q: Okay. Then the fence runs along East 7 Army Camp Road, is that correct? 8 A: It does. 9 Q: And I note that the -- to the right 10 of -- on your map there's a -- on the diagram there's an 11 indication of a sand grass shoulder immediately south of 12 East Parkway Drive just to the left on this diagram as 13 you're looking at it, of the intersection between East 14 Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road. 15 And have I read that correctly? Does that 16 indicate a sand/grass shoulder? 17 A: That's right, sir, yes. 18 Q: And can you tell us where the ditch 19 stops and the shoulder starts of -- when we look at this 20 diagram or would you need to look at your notes? 21 A: As -- as my memory serves me, the -- 22 the ditch is -- is reduced and, in fact, stops just in -- 23 in the area just immediately east of the shrubbery 24 indicated by the -- by the word "ditch". 25 So approximately where the arrow is right
471 now the -- the ditch reduces and the -- the sand/grass 2 shoulder continues on which is approximately the -- the 3 same level as the roadway. 4 Q: Okay. Then on Exhibit P-23, the 5 electronic version that we have on the screen, there's 6 immediately to the south of the indication of ditch and 7 trees, it says "grass covered field". 8 Is that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then on the right-hand side of 11 the drawing is a solitary tree. Was there a tree there? 12 A: Yes, there was, sir. It was a poplar 13 tree. 14 Q: And at the time in 1995, September 15 1995, you've indicated there were vacant buildings on 16 this lot which is on the southwest corner of the 17 intersection? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Then if we move to the right, there's 20 an indication of a sand and grass shoulder. Is that 21 correct? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And then a reference to -- I believe 24 it says "steel drum". 25 A: Yes.
481 Q: And there was a steel drum at that 2 point? 3 A: Yes, there was, and it contained sand 4 which was nearly full. 5 Q: Then moving to the east side of the 6 drawing, Exhibit P-23, the electronic version. The 7 roadway is identified as "Army Camp Road, Lambton County 8 Road Number 3", I believe? 9 A: Yes, that was the designation of the 10 Army Camp Road, in 1995. 11 Q: Thank you. And, then again, there's 12 a reference to a sand/grass shoulder along the east side 13 of Army Camp Road? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And there was a sand/grass shoulder 16 there? 17 A: Yes, that's right. 18 Q: And then immediately to the east of 19 that there's a depiction running north and south of a 20 fence and -- 21 A: That's right, sir. 22 Q: And there was a -- can you describe 23 the fence that was there when you were there in September 24 1995? 25 A: In 1995 that also was a page wire
491 fence, and I believe the fence posts were -- were wooden. 2 Q: And then as we move to the top of the 3 drawing north -- in a northerly direction there's an 4 indication of a tree; is that correct? 5 A: That's right, sir. It also is a 6 solitary poplar tree. 7 Q: And you can recall how high that tree 8 was at the time? 9 A: I can't recall how high it is, but, I 10 do have some notes to indicate -- 11 Q: Could you just maybe check the notes. 12 A: Yes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Forgive me for the interruption. 17 The -- the poplar tree was approximately fifty-two point 18 four nine (52.49) feet high or sixteen (16) metres in -- 19 in height. 20 Q: Then on Exhibit P-23 you've, 21 immediately above the poplar tree, there's a -- some 22 printing. It's -- I believe it reads, "embankment," is 23 that correct? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And there's some cross-hatching on
501 the left-hand side immediate -- just beside the word 2 "embankment" are some lines. Can you tell us what the 3 lines represent, Mr. Thompson? 4 A: Yes, those -- those lines indicate an 5 undercutting of the -- of the ground at the edge of the 6 roadway which appeared to have been done by a earth- 7 moving machine or -- or a grader and leaving a -- a 8 bevelled loose sandy embankment to the immediate east 9 side of the -- of the roadway. 10 Q: And can you -- do you recall or do 11 you have a note that might help to tell us the grade 12 differential between the top of the embankment and the 13 roadway? 14 A: No, I can't recall a grade 15 differential between the -- the surface of the roadway 16 and the top of the -- of the grass embankment or the sand 17 embankment. 18 But my memory serves me in such a way that 19 I'm able to tell you that it's at least -- at least my 20 height, perhaps a little -- a little greater in height. 21 Q: And how tall are you? 22 A: I'm five foot eleven and a half (5' 23 11 1/2"), I think. 24 Q: Thank you. Then there's an 25 indication on the right-hand side of trees or scrubs.
511 Can you describe what that depiction is -- refers to? 2 A: Those, again, are low level shrubs 3 and scrub brush, Tag Alder -- Alder and I believe there 4 are some Sumac trees interspersed. There -- they 5 generally follow the fence -- the fence line -- I'm -- 6 I'm sorry, the curvature of the -- of the embankment on 7 the east side of Army Camp Road. 8 Q: And then there's another indication 9 on Exhibit P-23 of a hydro pole and this one is noted as 10 hydro pole 2521, is that correct? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And do you know -- or do you recall - 13 - if there were street lights along East Parkway Drive 14 and Army Camp Road and at the intersection back in 1995? 15 A: No, there were no -- no streetlights. 16 Q: There were no streetlights. And then 17 immediately north on the diagram there is an indication 18 on your drawing of a sand pile. Is that correct? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And do you know if that sand pile was 21 there on September 6, 1995? 22 A: No, I do not. 23 Q: And we'll see this sand pile in some 24 of your photographs that when you looked at it in -- on 25 September 18th to 20th, 1995, can you describe how it
521 looked? Did it look -- was it compacted? Was it fresh? 2 Was it -- 3 A: Well, it -- it appeared to me to be a 4 -- a relatively recent deposit of -- of sand-like 5 material. It was loose in its -- its texture. It was 6 dry when I examined it and it would -- would have been at 7 least the -- the equivalent of several -- in my view -- 8 bucketfuls of sand from a -- from a large earth moving 9 machine similar to a -- a front end loader or a similar 10 type of machine. 11 Q: Okay, thank you. And then you have -- 12 again on Exhibit P-23 and we see in the electronic 13 version, there's handwriting and it's "embankment", 14 again? 15 A: Yes, there's -- there's an embankment 16 that is -- there -- there -- first of all, just 17 immediately north of the -- the word, "embankment", is 18 the undercut edge of the -- of the edge of the roadway. 19 And immediately south of the embankment is 20 a rather -- rather steep grade on -- on a sand -- on a 21 sand covered surface that you can walk up or could, in 22 1995, walk up with -- with some reasonable difficulty to 23 reach the base of the -- of the hydro pole number 2521. 24 Q: That's shown...? 25 A: That's shown where the -- where your
531 arrow is right now, sir. 2 Q: And it's just to the left as you're 3 looking at the exhibit -- electronic version of Exhibit 4 P-23, the word, "embankment", on the drawing? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Then there's a depiction of a fence on 7 the right hand side of the drawing? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And to the right of that and to the 10 east of the drawing, there's some words and I believe it 11 reads, "Ipperwash Provincial Park"? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And can you describe the fence that 14 was there? 15 A: My -- I'm not clear in what type of 16 fence that was but the depiction is -- is a -- that of a 17 fence line. I believe that it was a snow fence or some 18 similar type of temporary fencing. 19 Q: Then there's a depiction in Exhibit 20 P-23, "gate", and what does that refer to, sir. 21 A: Yes, that refers to a -- a metal 22 farm-type, agricultural-type gate which is in line with 23 the -- with the fence line previously mentioned, 24 immediately to the -- to the right of the -- the word 25 "gate" on the -- on the diagram.
541 Q: And do know the -- how wide that 2 fence is or was back in -- I mean the gate back in 1995? 3 A: Please bear with me again, I'll check 4 my notes. 5 Q: Thank you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: I have it recorded as 1.8 metres wide 10 but I would ask your indulgence to check and verify this 11 with the original drawing. 12 Q: Certainly. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: In actual fact on the original 17 drawing the gate is 4 metres wide. I may have misread my 18 notes. 19 Q: The gate is 4 metres wide. Do you 20 have an indication of how high the gate was, Mr. 21 Thompson -- 22 A: Yes, sir, I do. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
551 Q: Perhaps we could just check that at 2 the break, Mr. Thompson. 3 A: Yes, forgive me for the interruption. 4 I don't have that immediately in front of me. 5 Q: Thank you. I appreciate it has been 6 nine (9) years and a long time since you've looked at 7 these -- your notes, et cetera which we've just obtained 8 for you, actually. 9 Can you tell us then, as you go north 10 towards the top of drawing P-23 there's a depiction of, I 11 take it, a tree? 12 A: That's right, sir, and again, the 13 trees on this fence line are, as my memory serves me, are 14 Popular trees. They're rather large individual trees as 15 compared to shrub brush previously indicated on the edges 16 of roadways. 17 Q: Then there's a space immediately to 18 the north and I believe there's some handwriting and it 19 says "turnstile" in Exhibit P-23? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And can you just tell us what that 22 refers to, Mr. Thompson. 23 A: Well, I have no personal knowledge as 24 to the historical reason for that turnstile being there, 25 but, it would -- one would reasonably deduce that this
561 turnstile at one particular time was used to control 2 pedestrian access to the gates of the Park. 3 Q: And immediately to the north or 4 towards the top of P-23 you've depicted a number of trees 5 as well? 6 A: That's right. And again, they are 7 large Popular trees. 8 Q: And as I look at Exhibit P-23, along 9 with the trees, you've depicted, again, a fence; is that 10 correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And can you describe that fence for 13 us? 14 A: Again, that is a page wire farm-type 15 fence. It, in 1995, was broken down in several places 16 and -- and bent down, in some cases, touching the ground 17 and immediately north of the -- of the grove of Popular 18 trees the fence ceased to exist at all. 19 Q: And so there's a space where there's 20 no fence; that's depicted on Exhibit P-23? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: And then north of that space there's 23 another tree depicted and does the fence start again? 24 A: Yes, it does. 25 Q: And can you recall, or do you recall,
571 or do your notes help you with what type of fence started 2 on the upper part of Exhibit P-23? 3 A: I don't specifically recall what type 4 of fence that was. 5 Q: And at this point along the eastern 6 edge of the roadway and the Ipperwash Provincial Park 7 back in September 1995 when you were there, was there a 8 grade separation between the Park and the roadway? 9 Was it flat or was there -- 10 A: There -- the roadways were relatively 11 flat. 12 Q: And the -- did the roadway, running 13 up to the edge of the Park and the trees, was it flat or 14 was it built up? 15 A: There was a slight grade differential 16 between the east edge of the sand-covered parking lot or 17 right-of-way to the -- to the east where the -- where the 18 Park western limit was indicated by the fence line. 19 However, the roadway as I remember was 20 relatively flat and consistent between the sand-covered 21 roadway and the agricultural gate that -- that was 22 depicted in the fence line and the driveway immediately 23 east of the gate inside the Park. 24 Q: Okay. And do you know how far it was 25 from the gate that's depicted on Exhibit P-23 and Lake
581 Huron? 2 A: No, I don't have a specific 3 measurement. 4 Q: Okay, thank you. Perhaps that would 5 be a good time for the morning break, Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much. We'll take a fifteen (15) minute break. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 9 for fifteen (15) minutes. 10 11 --- Upon recessing at 11:31 a.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 11:50 a.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 15 resumed, please be seated. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Now, can 19 you tell me what your recollection of how high the gate 20 was? 21 A: My recollection -- my recollection of 22 the height of the gate, Mr. Millar, is approximately 23 chest height. I don't have a specific measurement of the 24 height and I'm referring to my chest height, being five 25 eleven and a half (5' 11 1/2") tall.
591 Q: Now you took, as I asked you earlier, 2 a number of photographs? 3 A: I did. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we've prepared, 5 Commissioner, a book of photographs that I would ask that 6 it be marked as the next exhibit. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much, P-24. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-24: Binder of photographs taken by Mr. 11 Thompson. 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And perhaps we could - 14 - there are a couple of productions -- you might want to 15 sit down for this, Mr. Thompson. 16 And I wonder, Commissioner, I would just 17 point out a couple of corrections in the index and 18 perhaps the Registrar could note these corrections on the 19 official copy of P-24. 20 In the first photos 1 to 3 it should read 21 "facing east on East Parkway Drive." So "east" needs to 22 be inserted. 23 Then if you go down to photos 13 and 14 24 the index reads "facing north" -- I mean "facing west" 25 and it should read "facing north."
601 Then on photo 15 "sandbank and brush 2 area." It should then say "facing east." 3 And then photos 19 and 20 should say at 4 the end "facing west." 5 Then on page 2 of the index photo number 6 32 it indicates -- it should read "bullet hole" instead 7 of "bullet indentation." 8 Now, perhaps, Commissioner, I could just 9 explain to everyone what we're going to do. I'm going to 10 go through the photos of the scene and then I'm simply 11 going to have the other photos of the bus and car, I'm 12 simply gong to have Mr. Thompson describe what's there so 13 that counsel will know. It's very difficult just from 14 looking at the photos and when we come back to deal with 15 the forensic issues, we'll go into it in more -- we'll go 16 into it in detail but, at least, counsel will have -- be 17 able to hear what Mr. Thompson says that the photo is 18 trying to describe. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: So, Mr. Thompson, if I could take you 22 to the book of photos and the first photo, photo number 23 1, could you describe this photo and I'm then going to 24 ask you in a moment to -- we'll take you back to the 25 drawing and we'll look at the drawing.
611 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Can you -- where were you standing 3 and what are you looking at in this photograph? 4 A: That's photograph index number 1, 5 sir, that is a photograph with the camera facing in an 6 easterly direction on East Parkway Drive. And in the 7 background of the photograph, near the centre of the 8 photograph, is the iron gate at the west extreme boundary 9 of the Park. 10 Q: If I might -- just bear with me for a 11 moment. In reference to the Exhibit P-23, which is now 12 behind you, could you point out approximately where you 13 were standing when you took the Photograph Number 1? 14 A: (INDICATING) 15 Q: So you're pointing to a -- off to the 16 west of the beginning of the electronic version of P-23-- 17 A: That's correct, sir. What I was 18 doing was referring to my position with the -- with the 19 camera. In fact, I don't recall that I took these 20 pictures myself, however, the pictures were taken under 21 my direction, in my presence, by Mr. Don Miller. 22 Q: So you were there with Mr. Miller? 23 A: I was there when the photographs were 24 taken. 25 Q: And the Photo Number 1 shows on the
621 left-hand side of the photo as you're looking at it, what 2 appears to be a garbage container. 3 Is that the garbage container that appears 4 in Exhibit P-23? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: And then on the left-hand side is the 7 scrub that -- the bushes that you've depicted on P-23. 8 Is that correct? As you're looking at the left-hand side 9 of this photograph. 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: If it's easier, Mr. Thompson, you 12 could certainly stand up and -- 13 A: I'd appreciate that. 14 Q: Sure. That's fine. Then Photo 15 Number 2 is -- can you describe this photograph for us? 16 A: Yes, this is the -- this is, again, a 17 photograph with the camera facing in an easterly 18 direction towards the intersection of Army Camp Road and 19 East Parkway Drive. We're looking along East Parkway 20 Drive. 21 In the foreground to the left is the 22 brown, wooden garbage container which is indicated in the 23 scale drawing as being near the driveway of 6842 East 24 Parkway Drive. 25 Q: So the -- the garbage container we
631 saw in the last photograph was actually farther west 2 along East Parkway Drive? 3 A: That's right, sir. 4 Q: And then on the right hand side of 5 this photograph is the lot that appears in the Exhibit P- 6 23 on the south-west corner of the intersection? 7 A: That's right. It's a grass covered 8 vacant lot. The vacant buildings are off the picture to 9 the -- to the extreme right of the picture. 10 And the fence line and page wire fence 11 referred to in my previous testimony is on the -- near 12 the centre of the photograph and it runs in an easterly 13 and westerly direction on the south side of East Parkway 14 Drive. 15 Q: And looking at your map, can you tell 16 us where you were -- you and Mr. Miller were standing 17 when the Photo Number 2 was taken? 18 A: Yes, the -- the photograph was taken 19 with the camera facing in an easterly direction. If you 20 move your arrow just to the left and off the -- off the 21 page of the diagram, it would be taken in approximately 22 the area where you're arrow is right there. 23 Q: Okay. Then, can you tell us what 24 Photograph Number 3 is? 25 A: These photographs progressively were
641 taken as we walked in an easterly direction on East 2 Parkway Drive and this photograph is taken, again, east. 3 It was the camera facing east a few metres east of the 4 previous photograph showing the brown wooden box. 5 And on the roadway is a black mark to the 6 left of the photograph and it appears to be a burn mark 7 and near the centre left of the -- of the photograph is 8 the -- the, what I described earlier in my testimony as a 9 freshly deposited mound of dry sand. 10 And just to the left of the arrow is the 11 iron gate entrance of the -- of the Park. 12 Q: And the hydro pole that appears in 13 the photo, the first hydro pole, is that the hydro pole 14 that is referred to on Exhibit P-23? 15 A: It is and it's -- I noted that that 16 pole number is HP2521 on the diagram. 17 Q: And this photo as well shows the -- 18 what you referred to in Exhibit P-23 as the embankment? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And it runs to the left and right of 21 the hydro pole? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And it is covered with grass? 24 A: Yes, it's partially covered with 25 grass. In certain areas it's -- the soil is rather
651 loose. It's a sandy type of soil in that area and the 2 vegetation is sparse and intermittent. 3 Q: And on the right-hand side of this 4 photograph is a large Popular tree that you describe in 5 P-23; is that correct? 6 A: Yes, sir, it is. 7 Q: And you can see just in the 8 foreground by the hydro pole what you described in P-23 9 as the undercutting of the embankment? 10 A: Yes, that's right. 11 Q: And it appears that there may have 12 been -- a grader may have gone along with that particular 13 part of the roadway; is that -- 14 A: That was the -- that was what the 15 appearance suggested to me at the time in 1995. 16 Q: And on the right-hand side of the 17 photograph, the fence is a page wire fence you described? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And if I can pull up the...technical 20 difficulties...the map, can you roughly point out where 21 you were standing when you took photograph number 3? 22 A: The photograph was taken very likely 23 from the paved roadway just north of the word "drive" in 24 East Parkway Drive. 25 Q: Okay, thank you. And the next
661 photograph is photograph number 4 and can you tell us 2 what that's referring to and where that was taken and 3 what it's looking at? 4 A: Photograph number 4 is taken from the 5 edge of the undercut embankment near the east edge of the 6 continuation of Army Camp Road and the camera is facing 7 west towards the ground wooden garbage box. 8 Our forensic vehicles are in the -- in the 9 background of the photograph and the page wire fence on 10 the south side of East Parkway Drive is near the left- 11 hand side of the -- of the photograph. 12 Q: And the forensic vehicles at the top 13 of the photograph just -- 14 A: That's right, exactly where your 15 arrow is pointing right now, that was the -- the limit, 16 the western limit of the -- of the scene examination. 17 Q: All right and I'll just...on the map, 18 can you tell us -- point out where you were standing when 19 you took Exhibit Number -- photo number 4? 20 A: The camera would have been facing in 21 a westerly direction and probably just a little bit north 22 of where your arrow is right now. If you move your arrow 23 that -- approximately in that area with the camera facing 24 westerly. 25 Q: So just in the west side of the sand
671 pile, as it's noted in the Exhibit P-23? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Then the next photograph which is 4 photograph Exhibit P-24, photograph number 5, can you 5 describe that for us, please? 6 A: Yes, that's a -- again, a photograph 7 taken with the camera facing in a southeasterly direction 8 showing the very northern part of Army Camp Road, just 9 south of the intersection of East Parkway Drive and it's 10 also -- in the foreground is -- just to the -- just above 11 the MAG number 5 designation or label is the sand and 12 grass covered roadway edge. 13 In other words, this is the sand and grass 14 covered edge of the roadway that I referred to in my 15 previous testimony. 16 And this is the edge of the paved portion 17 of East Parkway Drive as it curves to the south and meets 18 Army Camp Road. 19 Q: So you were pointing out on the 20 centre part of the photograph, as you're looking at it, 21 running to the right the curve in the road running to the 22 right and on the right-hand side is Army Camp Road? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And, can you tell us where you were 25 standing when you took that photograph?
681 A: The photographer is standing 2 approximately in this location with the camera facing in 3 a southeasterly direction. 4 Q: Thank you. And the next photograph 5 Exhibit 24, photograph 6? 6 A: That's a photograph of the camera 7 facing approximately the opposite direction as the former 8 photograph also showing the sand and grass covered 9 roadway shoulder and the page wire fence in the 10 background. 11 In the background is the very east end of 12 East Parkway Drive and in the foreground is the paved 13 roadway of Army Camp Road which begins at -- at the 14 centre -- or approximately the centre right of the 15 photograph. 16 Q: And if we look at the map, can you, 17 Exhibit P-23, point out where you were standing 18 approximately when the photographer took that photo? 19 A: The camera was positioned at 20 approximately this location -- 21 Q: And that's -- 22 A: -- camera lens facing in a -- in a 23 northwesterly direction. 24 Q: And the location you are pointing out 25 is in -- in Army Camp Road just to the east of the steel
691 drum that's depicted on P-23? 2 A: Yes, camera -- camera position 3 approximately where I'm pointing right now. 4 Q: Thank you. And Exhibit 24, 5 photograph 7? 6 A: Yes, Mr. Millar, this is a photograph 7 of the page wire fence in the background. In the very 8 very extreme upper edge of the -- 9 Q: Sorry, technical difficulties with 10 the operator here. Sorry. 11 A: That's okay. On the extreme north 12 edge of the -- of the photograph one can see a very small 13 portion of the abandoned buildings on the grass covered 14 vacant lot. 15 The camera is facing in a southwesterly 16 direction at this point and in the foreground we see the 17 centre of the roadway, very close to the apex of where 18 Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive intersect. 19 Q: Okay. And if I take you back to 20 Exhibit P-23, can you point approximately where the 21 photographer would have been standing when Exhibit P-24 22 photograph 7 was taken? 23 A: Approximately in this location near 24 the eastern edge of the paved roadway of -- of Army Camp 25 Road. And the camera would be facing in a southeasterly
701 direction towards the abandoned buildings. 2 Q: So that the -- if you would place it 3 on Exhibit P-23, we would see the corner of -- on the 4 southwest corner of Exhibit P-23 the fence is 5 perpendicular or parallel to the road and the 6 photographer would have been standing to the northeast of 7 that on the curve of Army Camp Road and East Parkway 8 Drive? 9 A: That's right, sir. 10 Q: Thank you. 11 A: The fence line at that location has a 12 very interesting street edge to it. It doesn't -- the 13 fence lines do not intersect at right angles. There's a 14 short -- a short cutoff portion of the fence that's I 15 think two (2) or three (3) fence posts wide that -- that 16 bisect the -- the extreme intersection of the fence 17 lines. 18 Q: Okay. Then the next exhibit, 19 Exhibit P-24 8, can you tell us what that depicts? 20 A: That is a photograph with the camera 21 facing in a southerly direction south on Army Camp Road 22 roughly in line with the east -- I should direction, the 23 west shoulder of the road showing the sand and grass 24 covered shoulder to the west of Army Camp Road. 25 And in the foreground showing the paved
711 roadway of East Parkway Drive as it intersects with -- or 2 bends -- turns to the south on Army Camp Road. 3 Q: And on the left-hand side of Exhibit 4 24, photograph number 8 there's a -- appears to be a 5 roadway in the -- at the top of the photograph and can 6 you tell us what that is? 7 A: I believe that is a roadway into the 8 Park. I previously described that as a -- the -- one of 9 the roadways that is an alternate entrance to the Park 10 and may very well have been the main entrance previous to 11 this -- this photograph being taken. 12 And we look at -- 13 Q: The map, can you -- Exhibit P-23, 14 point out where the photographer was standing when 15 Exhibit 24, photograph number 8 was taken? 16 A: The photographer was standing 17 approximately at this location. 18 Q: And you're describing a location? 19 A: Probably in the centre of the paved 20 roadway approximately at the apex of where East Parkway 21 Drive and Army Camp Road intersect and the camera is 22 facing southerly showing the shoulder of -- the west 23 shoulder of Army Camp Road. 24 And in the -- in the centre of the 25 photograph is a sand filled or partially sand filled
721 barrel, steel barrel on the west side of the road. 2 Q: Okay. Then the next photograph 3 Exhibit 24, photograph 9? 4 A: This is -- this is a photograph taken 5 from the sand-covered lot near the north edge of the -- 6 of the paved portion of Army Camp Road. We're looking 7 almost due south along the centre of Army Camp Road 8 towards Highway Number 21. 9 Q: And on the left of this photograph, 10 is that the Popular tree that you've referred to in 11 Exhibit P-23? 12 A: Yes, it is. 13 Q: And on the right is the steel drum 14 with the sand-filled steel drum that you've referred to? 15 A: Yes, it is. 16 Q: And if we look at Exhibit 23, the 17 electronic version, can you point out approximately where 18 the photographer was standing when Exhibit P-24, 19 photograph 9 was taken? 20 A: The photographer would have been 21 standing in this position on the sand-covered roadway 22 with the camera lens facing southerly towards Highway 21 23 with Army Camp Road being in the centre of the 24 photograph. 25 Q: And you are pointing out a spot at
731 the curve of the road as the -- the top of the curve of 2 the road between East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road 3 and looking south along Army Camp Road? 4 A: That's right. The photographer was 5 just off the -- off the paved portion of the road and the 6 sand-covered lot is in the foreground of the -- of the 7 photograph. 8 Q: Thank you. And Exhibit P-24 10? 9 A: This is a photograph taken with the 10 camera facing in a westerly direction with the cameraman 11 standing on the top of the grass berm which is on the 12 east side of Army Camp Road. 13 Q: And that's what you referred to as 14 the embankment? 15 A: That's the -- that's the embankment. 16 We're -- we're south of the -- the sand, the loose sand 17 covered -- sand mound which would be off the -- off this 18 photograph to the right. 19 In the foreground we see vegetation on the 20 top -- on the top of the grass berm. 21 In the centre of the picture running left 22 to right is the travelled portion or the paved portion of 23 Army Camp Road. 24 In the upper right-hand corner of the 25 photograph is the continuation of East Parkway Drive, and
741 in the centre background is the grass covered lot, which 2 has vacant buildings. 3 Q: And that's the lot that's on Exhibit 4 P-23 on the southwest portion of the intersection between 5 East Parkway Drive -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- and Army Camp Road? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And if we look at Exhibit P-23, can 10 you point out approximately where the photographer was 11 standing when Exhibit P-24 10 was taken? 12 A: Approximately at this -- this 13 location between the sand mound and the prominent Poplar 14 tree on the top of the -- the embankment -- 15 Q: And -- 16 A: -- with the camera facing in a 17 westerly direction. 18 Q: And so that the photographer was just 19 north of the Poplar tree, as we look at it in Exhibit P- 20 23, the electronic version? 21 A: Yes, that's right, sir. 22 Q: Okay. And the next photograph is 23 Exhibit P-24, photograph number 11, and although this 24 does not -- it's not as bright on the large screen as it 25 is in the photographs, can you tell us what is depicted
751 in this photograph? 2 A: The -- the camera in this particular 3 photograph is facing in a southwesterly direction, the -- 4 the camera -- the photographer is standing on the sand 5 covered shoulder of the roadway, as it -- as it merges 6 into the -- the sand covered parking lot, or entranceway 7 to access to the Lake Huron. 8 And in the centre of the photograph is the 9 -- is the northern limit of Army Camp Road, I'm pointing 10 now to the -- the paved portion of Army Camp Road, and 11 where the two (2) individuals are in the -- at the right 12 hand corner of the -- right hand side of the photograph, 13 is approximately where the roadway turns and becomes East 14 Parkway Drive. 15 What, in the background one should be able 16 to see, is the -- at least the outline of the vacant, 17 unattended buildings, approximately in the centre of the 18 grass covered lot. 19 Q: And there's a -- on the left-hand side 20 in the centre of the photograph there's an A frame 21 building? 22 A: Yes, it's a -- it's an A frame 23 building, and I -- I believe the windows were boarded up. 24 Q: And immediately to the right of it 25 there's another building, a rectangular -- small
761 rectangular building? 2 A: Yes, there is. This -- to the right 3 of the A frame is a -- is a small rectangular building. 4 Q: And to the left of the A frame, 5 although it's very difficult to see in the photograph as 6 projected, in the actual copy of the photograph, you can 7 see a building to the left of the A frame? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: I can't see it from my -- in my copy. 12 However, it may very well be in the original photographs. 13 Q: And can you tell us where the 14 photographer was standing when this Exhibit P-24 11 was 15 taken? 16 A: Yes, photo -- the photographer would 17 have been standing approximately in this location, on the 18 sand covered shoulder, on the east side of East Parkway 19 Drive, north of the prominent Poplar tree but south of 20 the sandpile deposit. And the camera lens would be 21 facing in a southwesterly direction towards the vacant 22 buildings. 23 Q: Okay. And if we could go to 24 photograph number 12 -- Exhibit 24, photograph number 12? 25
771 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: This is a view from the -- from the 4 vacant -- could I have your indulgence for a moment, I'm 5 just checking my notes here. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Perhaps if I could assist you, Mr. 10 Thompson, you will see in the top of the photograph a -- 11 what appears to be a steel drum that we've seen before, a 12 tree that's on the right. 13 And on the left-hand side you will see 14 what looks to be a sign board that we've seen in some of 15 the earlier photographs and in your index it says, "View 16 from the vacant buildings towards the sandbank and 17 curve." 18 A: Yes, thank you for your indulgence on 19 that, Mr. Millar, I was a little bit confused as to the 20 location of that -- the photographer in that particular 21 photograph. I have it now. This photograph is taken 22 from the grass-covered vacant lot. And it's -- the 23 camera is facing in a -- approximately a north direction. 24 And we have, in the -- in the background, 25 the deposit of sand which is in the form of what I
781 described earlier in my evidence as a mound. 2 The -- in the centre of the photograph is 3 the -- the drum which contains sand. To the right of the 4 drum is a prominent poplar tree which is west of the -- 5 the fence line -- the west fence line of the East Parkway 6 Drive. 7 And in the left background is East Parkway 8 Drive, and in the upper area of the -- of the photograph 9 towards the left is Lake Huron. 10 The individuals on their hands and knees 11 on the south shoulder of East Parkway Drive are 12 investigators examining and searching for evidence. 13 Q: And, if I might, in the upper left- 14 hand -- upper part of the photograph in the background, 15 there's a sand roadway, it looks like, leading to the top 16 of the photograph and in this particular photograph would 17 be the north. Is that the roadway leading to Lake Huron? 18 A: It is, sir, and it's also described by 19 other persons locally as the sand covered lot, or right 20 of way. And in addition, there's a -- a directory sign 21 that's right where your arrow is right now, sir, and that 22 has community -- or -- in 1995 had community information 23 written on the -- on the bulletin board. 24 Q: And to the right in the photograph -- 25 it's not very clear when it's on the screen, but in the
791 actual photograph, you can see a sign that demarcates the 2 end of Army Camp Road. It's a normal road sign? 3 A: Yes, it's a checker board sign. 4 Q: Thank you. 5 A: Amber and -- and black, diamond 6 shaped. 7 Q: And if we go to Exhibit P-23, can you 8 tell us approximately where the photographer was standing 9 when Exhibit P-24-12 was taken? 10 A: Yes, sir. I now remember that the -- 11 the photographer was in this position and the camera was 12 facing in a north or north-easterly direction. 13 Q: And your -- for the purposes of a 14 description in the transcript, you see the vacant 15 building, that's a rectangular vacant building and you're 16 pointing to a spot that is to the -- on an angle from the 17 left-hand upper angle of the rectangular building and 18 drawing a line towards the upper right-hand coner of 19 Exhibit P-23? 20 A: That's right, sir. 21 Q: Okay. Then the next photograph, 22 Exhibit P-24-13. 23 A: This is a photograph taken with the 24 camera facing in an approximate north direction from the 25 west side of the sand and grass covered shoulder of Army
801 Camp Road, facing the checker board, road ending, sign 2 and the community information sign. 3 It's taken from approximately the centre 4 of the driveway entrance to the sand and grass covered -- 5 the grass covered vacant lot which is on the west side of 6 Army Camp Road. 7 Q: And as we look at this photograph, 8 Exhibit 24, Photograph 13, we see on the right-hand side 9 of the -- approximately in the centre of the photograph 10 is Army Camp Road? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And just to the right of it there is 13 a tree, and is that the poplar tree that's referred to in 14 Exhibit P-23? 15 A: It is, sir, yes. 16 Q: And then to the right of the popular 17 tree there's a hydro pole. Is that Hydro pole 2521 that 18 shown on Exhibit P-23? 19 A: Yes, sir, it is. 20 Q: And then in the background of the 21 photograph, there appears to be a driveway. Is that the 22 driveway to Number East 1102 that's referred to in 23 Exhibit P-23? 24 A: Yes, sir, it is. 25 Q: And there appears to be a concrete
811 block in the centre of Exhibit P-24, Photograph 13. Is 2 that the concrete block that appears on Exhibit P-23? 3 A: Yes, it is. 4 Q: Or one (1) of them. 5 A: It -- it's one (1) of two (2) and 6 it's -- it's indicated as the more northerly concrete 7 block on the original diagram. 8 Q: And this photograph, as well, shows 9 what you described as a two (2) -- a wooden fence with 10 two (2) slats around the property that's shown on Exhibit 11 B-23 near the driveway to East 1102, is that correct? 12 A: Yes, sir, that's right. 13 Q: And if I could take you to the 14 Exhibit P-23 can you point out approximately where you 15 were standing -- or the photographer was standing when 16 Exhibit P-24, 13 was taken? 17 A: With the pointer, I have -- I'm 18 indicating the photographer is positioned near the very 19 bottom of the scale diagram opposite the gate leading 20 into the vacant buildings. 21 And the camera is facing in a -- in a 22 northerly direction and towards Lake Huron. 23 Q: And I didn't ask this before but the 24 -- the diagram, Exhibit P-23, has 'gate' indicated at the 25 bottom of the diagram to the right of the vacant
821 buildings? 2 A: That's right. Yes. 3 Q: Now, if I could take you to Exhibit 4 24, photograph 14? 5 A: Yes. Photograph 14 is taken from the 6 eastern edge of Army Camp Road with the very -- in the 7 very background is Lake Huron. We're looking almost 8 directly down the driveway of Municipal Residence E-11-02 9 which is in the background near the top of the 10 photograph. 11 Indicated to the right of the driveway is 12 the concrete block mentioned in the -- in the previous 13 photograph and in the centre area of the photograph is 14 the sand-covered lot or right of way leading to Lake 15 Huron. 16 The left lower portion of the photograph 17 shows the paved portion of the scalloped edge of the 18 pavement of the curve from East Parkway Drive to Army 19 Camp Road. 20 Q: And if we -- 21 A: To the right -- I might just add, to 22 the right centre is the embankment on the east side of 23 Army Camp Road and somewhat behind this dark embankment 24 is the pile of -- the sand pile that appears to jut out 25 from the -- the established embankment of the road.
831 Q: And I'll just take you to Exhibit -- 2 the electronic version of Exhibit P-23 and could you 3 point out where approximately the photographer was 4 standing when Exhibit P-24, 14 was taken? 5 A: Approximately from this position, 6 sir. 7 Q: And "this position" is just to the 8 left of the words "embankment" on Exhibit P-23? 9 A: It is. And it's on the sand covered 10 east shoulder of Army Camp Road. Camera is facing in a 11 northerly direction towards Lake Huron and approximately 12 in line with the concrete block in the centre of the -- 13 of the photograph. 14 Q: Go to the next photograph; it's 15 photograph Exhibit 24, photograph 15? 16 A: Photograph 15 is -- is taken from 17 approximately the centre of the road allowance to -- from 18 the -- from Army Camp Road to Lake Huron. The camera is 19 facing in an easterly direction. 20 In the left background, near the upper 21 left-hand corner of the photograph is hydro pole number 22 2521 and directly below hydro pole 2521 is the fresh 23 deposit of sand or sand mound on the east side of Army 24 Camp Road. 25 To the right of the sand deposit or sand
841 mound, is the established -- established embankment 2 immediately south of that area. 3 And to the right of the -- of the 4 photograph in the background is the prominent Popular 5 tree on the east side of the road allowance. 6 And in the foreground you can see the 7 impressions made by vehicles in the very soft sand and it 8 gives the viewer some idea of the type of sand that's on 9 the roadway or at the edge of the roadway. 10 Q: And if we look at Exhibit -- the 11 electronic version of Exhibit P-23, can you point out 12 approximately where the photographer was standing when 13 the photograph was taken? 14 A: The photographer is standing 15 approximately on the grass and sand covered shoulder on 16 the north side of East Parkway Drive about where the -- 17 about where it says "shoulder." 18 And the camera is facing in an easterly 19 direction towards the gate, the iron gate of the -- of 20 the Park. 21 Actually, I should correct myself there. 22 The camera is facing easterly towards hydro pole 2521. 23 Q: Thank you. And the next photograph, 24 photograph number 17? 25 A: Photograph 17 is taken from the --
851 approximately the centre of the sand-covered parking lot 2 or entrance to Lake Huron north of where Army Camp Road 3 merges or turns into East Parkway Drive. 4 In the centre of the photograph is the 5 sand mound where the arrow is right now and to the right 6 of the sand mound is the established foliage covered 7 embankment. 8 And in the centre background is hydro pole 9 number 2521 immediately above the juncture of the 10 established bank and the end of the -- the rather freshly 11 deposited mounded sand. 12 To the left of the mound of sand is the 13 second concrete block which is the more southerly of the 14 two (2) concrete blocks and behind in the background, 15 behind the concrete block above where the arrow is now is 16 the iron gate which was the entrance to Ipperwash Park. 17 And directly behind the -- the concrete 18 block, above where your arrow is now, is a memorial 19 shrine to the deceased, Anthony O'Brien Dudley George, 20 right. 21 Q: And if we look at Exhibit P-23, the 22 electronic version, can you point out approximately where 23 the photographer was standing when Exhibit 24, photograph 24 17, was taken? 25 A: Approximately -- approximately this
861 location here, camera -- I'm -- I'm locate -- I'm 2 indicating the sand covered roadway, north of the Apex in 3 the junction of the two (2) roadways, East Parkway Drive, 4 and Army Camp Road. 5 The camera facing approximately centre 6 towards the -- the sand mound, and showing the -- the 7 iron gate in -- in the background. 8 Q: Okay. And the next photograph, 9 photograph P-24 18, shows a similar view, is that 10 correct? 11 A: It's a similar view, sir, and it's 12 taken a little closer to the -- to the actual gate area, 13 and the memorial area. It shows the -- the northern edge 14 of the sand mound, and the concrete block, approximately 15 mid way in the centre area of the -- of the photograph. 16 And also, in -- towards the centre of the 17 photograph is the -- is the iron farm type gate. 18 Q: And on the right hand side of the 19 gate, there appears to be an embankment, is that the edge 20 of the embankment that's shown in Exhibit P-23? 21 A: It is, sir, it's a continuation -- 22 it's a continuation of the embankment as it curves from 23 being north -- northerly to easterly, in a -- in a -- an 24 arc ranging from -- ranging from a northerly alignment to 25 an easterly alignment.
871 Q: And we can see that in Exhibit P-23, 2 the electronic version. 3 A: Yes, camera is approximately here, 4 underneath where it's the word sand covered is. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And the -- and the camera is facing 7 easterly towards the park. 8 Q: And if we look at Exhibit 24 18 9 again, you will see on the left-hand side of the photo, a 10 space, and is that where the turnstile was, sir? 11 A: Yes, I believe that's where the 12 turnstile was. 13 Q: Thank you. Now, the next photograph, 14 photograph 19 -- Exhibit 24 19, I understand that this 15 photograph was taken in 1976? 16 A: I -- I believe that -- 17 Q: '96, excuse me. 18 A: Yes, that's correct, it was taken 19 roughly a year later, during my visit to the inside of 20 the park to -- an attempt to gather more evidence. 21 Q: And this photograph is looking east 22 from the park, on the inside of the park you're facing -- 23 excuse me, west, and it shows in the centre the iron 24 gate, is that correct? 25 A: That's right, I would -- I would
881 adjust that description to the -- the camera is facing in 2 a westerly direction, roughly in line with the centre of 3 East Parkway Drive, and to the -- to the right of the 4 gate is a -- is a clear view of the turnstile. To the 5 left of the gate is Hydro pole 2521 for reference 6 purposes. 7 Q: And I see the -- what you described as 8 the snow fence on the top of the embankment on the left- 9 hand side of the photograph? 10 A: That right, sir, yes. 11 Q: And can you show us on Exhibit P-23 12 approximately where the photographer was standing when 13 the Exhibit P-24 19 was taken? 14 A: Yes, the -- the photographer would 15 have been facing west from this position, probably from 16 the very extreme edge, right at the extreme edge of the 17 right of the diagram. The camera would be facing 18 westerly towards -- towards the gate and also in 19 alignment with the centre of East Parkway Drive. 20 Q: Okay. And the next photograph, 21 photograph 20, is again from the inside of the park? 22 A: That's right. That -- that 23 photograph is taken from the inside of the park, north of 24 the iron gate, camera facing in a southwesterly direction 25 and in the foreground or in the centre of the -- the
891 photograph rather, it appears there is a garbage or 2 recycling container. 3 And it -- in the centre also background is 4 -- shows individual substantial trees which form the part 5 of the fence line between the gate and the -- the area to 6 the -- to the right of the -- of the photograph. In the 7 right centre of the photograph, one can hopefully see the 8 page wire fence which is -- is established along the 9 fence line. 10 Q: And as I understand it from Exhibit 11 P-23, the page wire fence that's shown in the right-hand 12 side of the photograph Exhibit 24, photograph 20, was not 13 there or not standing at least when you did your diagram 14 P-23? 15 A: Parts of the -- parts of the page 16 wire fence were -- were bent down or broken down. I -- I 17 don't have a -- a clear recollection of what the -- what 18 the total extent of the -- of the damage to the fence 19 was. However, the photographs taken at the time will -- 20 will bear that out. 21 Q: And can you tell us, this photograph 22 P-24 20 was taken again in 1996? 23 A: It was. I believe in August of 1996. 24 Q: And can you point out where the 25 photographer was standing when Exhibit 24 20 was taken?
901 A: Yes. The photographer was standing 2 approximately at this location just to the right of the 3 word "turnstile" on the east edge of the scale diagram. 4 And the camera is facing approximately southeast. I'm -- 5 I'm sorry, correction, southwest. 6 Q: Thank you. Then the next photograph 7 -- Exhibit 24 photograph 21 shows the building that -- 8 the burnt building on the inside of the park? 9 A: Yes, that's right. This -- this 10 structure is a -- I believe a -- a stone or brick 11 structure, the remnants of a burned out building which I 12 understand was part of the park architecture, and the 13 camera is facing in a southerly direction from a good 14 distance inside the -- the park property, east of the 15 iron gate. 16 Q: And so if we look at Exhibit P, the 17 electronic version of Exhibit P-23, you would be -- the 18 photographer was off -- 19 A: Yes. It would have been off the -- 20 when I took this photograph I would have been off the 21 diagram at approximately this location at the very, very 22 far edge of the overhead screen, with the camera facing 23 in a -- in a southerly direction. The -- the remnants 24 are approximately in this area, some distance to the 25 right of where your cursor is right now.
911 Q: Okay. And if I could take you rather 2 more quickly through some of the other photographs, just 3 so that everyone knows and when we come back to do the 4 forensics, they'll have had the opportunity of your 5 description of these -- the first photograph is Exhibit 6 P-24 22, and that is a photograph of what we'll hear is a 7 bus that was driven by Mr. Nicholas Cotrelle? 8 A: Yes, sir, that's right. This 9 photograph was taken on the 19th of September, 1995. 10 Q: And Exhibit 24 23, is another view of 11 the bus, the right-hand side of the bus as you're looking 12 at it, the driver's side of the bus. 13 And can you tell us what was being 14 photographed in this particular photo for the benefit of 15 counsel, so they will know when we come back to do the 16 forensics. 17 A: This photograph was taken and it 18 shows the -- the left or driver's side of the bus. And 19 it shows the second window behind the driver's 20 compartment as being broken. Jagged remnants or shards 21 of glass remain in the frame of the -- of the window. 22 Q: Okay. And the next photograph, 23 Exhibit 24 -- P-24? 24 A: A -- a similar photograph of the left 25 or driver's side of the school bus with the -- with the
921 broken window shown above the -- above the stop sign. 2 Q: Then photo -- Exhibit 24, photo 25? 3 A: This is a close up of the -- or a 4 closer photograph of the driver's side or left side of 5 the school bus, showing the broken window, second behind 6 the driver's compartment, and showing the driver's window 7 open at this time -- at the time the photograph was 8 taken. 9 Q: And Exhibit 24, photo 26, again shows 10 the same window? 11 A: That's right, sir, and it's -- it's a 12 close up again of the -- of the previously mentioned 13 photograph, second behind the -- or the first behind the 14 driver's compartment of the school bus, left side. 15 Q: And photo 27? Exhibit 24 27? 16 A: This is the rear of the school bus, 17 taken from the left rear. 18 Q: And Photo 28 is the right side of the 19 bus? 20 A: Right side of the previously 21 mentioned bus over -- overview . 22 Q: And 29? 23 A: This is a photograph taken from the - 24 - what would normally be the centre aisle of the school 25 bus facing -- facing forward from the -- in the interior
931 showing the driver's compartment on the left-hand side. 2 Q: And Photo 30, Exhibit 24 30? 3 A: This is a photograph of the right- 4 hand side of the passenger side entrance door of the 5 school bus showing the upper left window pane broken at 6 the -- in the entrance door. 7 Q: And I note in the description in the 8 index there's a reference to a bullet indentation under 9 the first window towards the rear above the 'E' in 10 George. That is shown on this -- can you -- 11 A: Yes, and in fact, I believe that is 12 not a - a bullet indentation. I believe that, in fact, 13 is a bullet hole. 14 Q: So that description should be for 15 Photo 30 should be -- indentation -- should be changed to 16 hole as we did with respect to number 32? 17 A: That's right, Sir, yes. 18 Q: And then P-24, Exhibit 31, I take it's 19 a closeup of the window? 20 A: This is a closeup of the -- the 21 folding door -- entrance door of the -- of the bus -- the 22 upper left window pane broken. 23 Q: Exhibit P24 32, which is -- 24 A: This is the -- this is the actual 25 bullet hole in the frame of the school bus window, right
941 side, first window behind the entrance or passenger door 2 of the school bus. This is a bullet hole in the lower 3 frame of the passenger window. 4 Q: And if we just -- this particular 5 photograph -- well, it's now -- it's upside down -- but 6 it -- that's the way it should appear? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: Now, the next photograph was simply a 9 closeup of this bullet hole in Photo 32? 10 A: This is a -- a closeup of the apparent 11 bullet hole with -- with scale to show perspective and 12 dimension. 13 Q: And the next photograph, it's Exhibit 14 24, Photograph 34. 15 A: This is a -- an apparent bullet hole. 16 It was seen in the previous photograph but this time the 17 -- the camera is facing the bullet hole from the inside 18 of the interior of the school bus. 19 Q: Okay. And Exhibit P24 35, Photo 35? 20 A: This is a photograph of the -- of the 21 driver's seat. The -- the -- in particular the backrest 22 of the driver's seat. 23 And it's not abundantly clear in the -- 24 in the overhead but one can see a light mark on the right 25 side of -- near the centre of the -- of the backrest
951 which is an apparent bullet hole and also a tear in the - 2 - in the backrest fabric which would face the driver's 3 back and it's -- these -- these holes, I gather, will be 4 described at some later time. 5 Q: Okay. And photo P-24 36 is a close 6 up of the back seat? 7 A: Yes, that's a closeup of the 8 backrest, the rear portion of the backrest of the 9 driver's seat and it -- it shows a puncture in the fabric 10 of the -- of the backrest. 11 Q: And again, P-24, photo 37? 12 A: Photograph number 37 is a -- is a 13 photograph taken from the interior of the school bus and 14 it shows the first window behind the driver's compartment 15 and on the upper of the two (2) horizontal window frames 16 is an apparent bullet strike approximately in the centre 17 of the -- in the centre of the photograph. 18 Q: And this is the photograph that you 19 referred to before -- I mean, the window that you had 20 referred to earlier as having been broken? 21 A: Yes. It's -- it's -- one lower 22 portion of that window is broken, yes. 23 Q: And then lastly, Exhibit 24 38 with 24 respect to the bus is a picture of the driver's area of 25 the bus?
961 A: That's right, this is taken from a 2 position behind the -- the driver's compartment to show 3 approximately what the driver's view may have been 4 through the -- through the windshield of the vehicle. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, it might 6 be an appropriate time to break for lunch, it's about 7 five (5) after 1:00. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. What, we're going to be taking a view around 10 3:00 or 3:30 or something like that? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So what do 13 you suggest we do for a lunch break? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I think that we 15 should -- we'll come back at 2:15 if that's agreeable to 16 everyone and then we'll continue -- what we have to do is 17 -- we'll quickly finish these photographs because we're 18 simply identifying them for everyone's benefit and we'll 19 deal with them in more detail when Mr. Thompson comes 20 back at a later time but we're also going to show the 21 twenty -- a video that will take about a half an hour or 22 more to go through. It's a twenty-nine (29) minute 23 video. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right, 25 we'll adjourn until 2:15.
971 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 2 adjourned until 2:15. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 1:07 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 2:17 p.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 I just have to double check that can with 10 run without our operator, because he's gone off because 11 of our technical glitch. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So our -- it 13 sounds like our speaker isn't working. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, we can't 18 -- until our audio technician gets back -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We can't 20 proceed? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We can't proceed, so 22 we have to have a short adjournment. Let me just explain 23 to everyone. The tape that we're going to play this 24 afternoon won't play on this high tech equipment so it -- 25 we're off -- in the process of going to get a -- a video
981 tape that -- video player that isn't as high tech as the 2 video players here and to see if we can play it so that 3 it'll get up on the big screen. 4 The alternative is to bring a TV from 5 upstairs down but not very many people are going to be 6 able to see it, so our audio technician has gone to see 7 if he can get a -- a VCR. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: To see if he 9 can a two (2) headed VCR, an old fashioned one. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Needed a two (2) 11 headed VCR. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's right. So, if 14 we could just take five (5) minutes or so, Commissioner, 15 I'd appreciate it and I apologize. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, let's 17 do it. 18 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 19 Inquiry will recess for who knows how long. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 2:20 p.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 3:50 p.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: Order. All rise, please. 25 This Inquiry is now resumed, please be seated.
991 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Commissioner, Mr. Thompson, I 4 apologize, we were not able to obtain a machine that will 5 play this tape, so that we will play this tape when Mr. 6 Thompson comes back the next time. And what we're going 7 to do is finish going through some of the -- the photos 8 that we've got and then we'll break for the -- to go take 9 the view. 10 And, so, if we could start, Mr. Thompson, 11 we're going to start with a photograph and this 12 photograph, I take it, is in the interior of the bus? 13 A: That's right, sir, it's a photograph 14 taken from at or near the rear of the interior of the 15 bus, showing the -- the front -- front area and the 16 absence of normal seats in -- in portions of the bus. 17 Q: And, then, the next photograph is, as 18 I understand it, a 1982 brown Chrysler New York -- New 19 Yorker, that was driven by Mr. Warren George on the 20 evening of September 6? 21 A: Yes, Sir. 22 Q: And this is simply a view of ... 23 A: Simply a view of the -- of the front 24 of the Chrysler vehicle. 25 Q: And the next photograph; it's
1001 Exhibit 24, photograph 41. 2 A: And this is a photograph taken, 3 again, from the front of the brown Chrysler vehicle, 4 showing damage on the hood of the vehicle. 5 Q: And, can you point out the damage on 6 the hood of the vehicle? 7 A: Yes, one area of damage is exactly 8 where your cursor is right now, upper -- upper centre of 9 the -- of the photograph, another is just to the left of 10 your cursor, a little left of that, please. That's 11 another dent in the -- in the hood area, that were of 12 noteworthy importance. 13 There -- there's other damage on the -- on 14 the hood, but the two areas that I discussed earlier, are 15 the most prominent areas of damage. 16 Q: And this next photo is Exhibit 24, 17 photograph 42? 18 A: Yes, this is the right side or 19 passenger side of the -- the same Chrysler vehicle, just 20 an overview photograph. 21 Q: And Exhibit 24 40, photograph 40 -- 22 photo 43. 23 A: The similar photograph showing the 24 rear of the Chrysler vehicle, camera, and photographer to 25 the rear of the vehicle, and showing some damage to the
1011 left rear taillight. 2 Q: Right where my cursor is now, is off 3 to your -- 4 A: That's correct, sir, yes. 5 Q: And the next photograph, it's a 6 photograph of Exhibit 24, photograph 44? 7 A: That's right, sir. And this is 8 again, an overview photograph of the left side of the 9 brown Chrysler vehicle, and careful examination of that 10 photograph will show what are apparent bullet holes in 11 the left side of the vehicle, the -- the driver's door 12 and the left front fender. 13 Q: And, the next photograph is 14 Exhibit 24, photo 45? 15 A: Yes, sir. A closer view of the 16 apparent bullet strikes and bullet holes in the brown 17 Chrysler. One (1) above the left front wheel and one 18 behind -- that's exactly where it is, that is an apparent 19 bullet strike there and below that is a bullet hole. 20 And above the grill, imitation grill on 21 the side of the fender, just above where your cursor is 22 there now is another apparent bullet hole. And there is 23 another bullet hole exactly where your cursor is in the 24 base of the A pillar or windshield frame on the driver's 25 side.
1021 And, again, another apparent bullet hole 2 in the -- near the centre of the -- of the forward 3 portion of the driver's door. 4 Q: And the next photo, Exhibit 24, 5 photograph 46? 6 A: This is a photograph taken from the 7 side of the vehicle, more of a close up view showing the 8 angularity of the bullet holes and -- and strikes in the 9 left front fender and left front door of the Chrysler 10 vehicle. 11 Q: And Exhibit 24, photograph 47? 12 A: And this is a photograph taken at 13 approximately 90 degrees to the side of the -- of the 14 Chrysler vehicle showing the -- again, the relationship 15 of the -- and the angularity of the bullet strikes and -- 16 and holes. 17 Q: And we can see four (4) holes in this 18 photograph and those are the four (4) that you described 19 to us before? 20 A: Yes, that's right, sir. And there 21 are four (4) holes and one (1) apparent bullet strike 22 just at the extreme left, yes. 23 Q: Thank you. And lastly, Exhibit 24, 24 photograph 48? This is a -- 25 A: This is a closeup view, with scale,
1031 to show perspective and detail and angularity of the 2 bullet -- apparent bullet hole in the driver's door of 3 the Chrysler vehicle. 4 Q: And now the next photographs are 5 simply photographs of some of the weapons that you told 6 us earlier that you had obtained? 7 A: Yes, that's right, sir. 8 Q: And, as I understand it, this 9 photograph, Exhibit 24, photograph 15.21 is a -- a 10 firearm that was issued to, on the night in question, 11 Acting Sergeant Ken Deane of the Ontario Provincial 12 Police? 13 A: Yes, that's right. This is a 14 photograph of a Heckler and Koch MP5 submachine gun which 15 has a -- a laser sight attached and a sure-fire light 16 attached also to the -- the forestock of the -- of the 17 firearm. 18 Q: And the next photograph, Exhibit 24, 19 15.22 simply another shot of the same firearm? 20 A: That's right, sir. 21 Q: As is photograph sixteen (16) hyphen 22 -- 16.1? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Then I understand that there were 25 seven (7) -- seven (7) weapons seized. There's a -- we
1041 only have six (6) in these photographs and that was due 2 to an error in my office but there's another H&K MP5 3 weapon as well that you obtained and that one had a 4 suppression -- sound suppression device on it? 5 A: Yes, that's right, sir. 6 Q: And then the next photograph is 16.7 7 which, as I understand it, was a -- 8 A: 16.7 is a Heckler and Koch 33E-E, 223 9 calibre firearm that was assigned to OPP Constable Mark 10 Beauchesne. 11 Q: And the reference in the index, the 12 502, 501 is the number that you assign to the -- the -- 13 A: Yes. In -- in an effort to clarify 14 the forensic items collected, I assigned a prefix in -- 15 in the manner of describing these items starting at five 16 hundred (500). The suffix numbers are all consistent 17 with what is seen in the photographs. 18 But these items later were described as in 19 the collection of forensic exhibits, for example, this 20 photograph and this item would be item number 502 in the 21 SIU exhibit collect log. 22 Q: Okay. And the next photograph is 23 16.12 and this is a Smith and Wesson 38 revolver, as I 24 understand it? 25 A: Yes, it is. It's a Smith and Wesson
1051 38 Special revolver and this firearm was turned over by 2 Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix. 3 Q: And the next -- 4 A: This item would -- pardon me, sir. 5 This item would later have been assigned instead of item 6 number 4, 5-04. 7 Q: Thank you. And the next item, 8 Exhibit 24, photograph 16.16 is a pistol. Can you just 9 tell us about that? 10 A: Yes, item -- or photograph number 16 11 shows Forensic Item Number 5 or later described as item 12 505 which is a Sig Sauer 40 calibre semi-automatic pistol 13 with a box magazine containing ammunition and one unfired 14 cartridge that is loose. And this firearm was turned 15 over by Sergeant George Hebblethwaite and I'll spell that 16 for the reporter. It's H-E-B-B-L-E-T-H-W-A-i-T-E. 17 Q: Thank you. And the next item, it's 18 Exhibit 24, item 16.20. 19 A: This is a semi-automatic 40 calibre 20 Sig Sauer pistol which was assigned to and turned over by 21 Constable Kevin York of the Ontario Provincial Police. 22 It's a similar weapon to the one previously mentioned 23 showing a magazine containing live cartridges and a loose 24 unfired cartridge just to the left of the number 6. 25 This item number 6 will later be described
1061 as Forensic Item Number 506. 2 Q: Thank you. And lastly, Exhibit 24 3 film, photograph 16.24? 4 A: This is another -- this is another 5 semi-automatic Sig Sauer 40 calibre pistol which was 6 assigned to Constable Brian Sharp, S-H-A-R-P, of the 7 Ontario Provincial Police and similarly to the previous 8 Sig Sauer firearms, it -- the package contained a 9 magazine with unfired cartridges and one (1) loose 10 cartridge on its own just to the left of the number 7. 11 This is item number 7 which is later corresponds with 12 Forensic Item 507 in my -- in my exhibit report. 13 Q: Thank you. And the next photograph, 14 it's Exhibit 24, photograph 19.0A and that is I 15 understand a 1977 Chevrolet Impala? 16 A: Yes, sir, it is. 17 Q: And that was the automobile owned by 18 and driven by Mr. Pierre George on the night of September 19 6th? 20 A: That is my understanding, sir, yes. 21 Q: And the next photograph is another 22 photograph. It's Exhibit 24 19.1A. It's again another 23 photograph of the 1977 Chevrolet. 24 A: That's right, sir. 25 Q: Thank you, Mr. Thompson.
1071 Commissioner, given our technical 2 difficulties with the tape, we are not going to be able 3 to play the tape today or we -- we would only play it on 4 a small screen that most people could not see. 5 So what I propose is I'm bringing at -- 6 later in the Inquiry Mr. Thompson will be coming back to 7 deal with forensic issues and what I propose is that we 8 stop now with Mr. Thompson. 9 I will continue him in-chief when we get 10 to the forensic issues. And then My Friends will play 11 the tape then and we will -- My Friends will all be able 12 to cross-examine Mr. Thompson on today's evidence and the 13 evidence that we will be calling on the forensic issues. 14 I'd really wanted to just call him to 15 introduce some of the -- particularly the drawings and 16 the earlier photographs. 17 Now, what I propose is that we adjourn now 18 and it has been suggested that perhaps we start tomorrow 19 morning at 9:00 a.m. and go to 4:00 a.m. and unless -- 20 4:00 p.m., excuse me. 21 And unless there's any objection that 22 anyone has, it seems to me given that it's a Friday, that 23 it probably makes some sense. Our witness tomorrow is 24 Mr. Clifford George and -- and he has agreed that he 25 would be happy to start at nine o'clock and if -- unless
1081 Counsel have some objection to starting at 9:00, then I 2 propose that we would start at 9:00 tomorrow? 3 And then we would sit through until 4:00 4 or -- and Mr. Clifford George is the only witness we're 5 going to have tomorrow. 6 Now, the view that we're going to take is 7 a view that is for Counsel and -- and the media we -- for 8 the media the ground rules are that at the Army Camp, the 9 media is not to film or have audio inside the Army Camp. 10 We are taking our audio -- our video 11 camera from the Commission. It will -- what we see will 12 be part of the public record and -- so that this is not a 13 -- as most -- as viewings are, in this kind of context, 14 it's not -- it's not a public viewing open to the public. 15 We will be making the tape as part of -- 16 it'll be part of our record. We now have, however, we 17 have a forty-eight (48) seat school bus and there are 18 fifty (50) waiver forms so that there are more people 19 than can be accommodated on the bus. 20 And I haven't had the opportunity -- I 21 don't know how to look at -- I don't know who all are 22 there, but perhaps we could take a few minutes and some - 23 - we're not going to be able to take all fifty (50) 24 people who've signed, because we only have a forty-eight 25 (48) place bus.
1091 And so I would suggest, Commissioner, that 2 we -- excuse me. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: As I understand it, 7 the -- it may be that for the media, we -- it's -- we can 8 only have one (1) media rep. and that may solve the 9 problem for me to organization. 10 So, anyway, Commissioner, I suggest then 11 we will take the view and we're doing this in two (2) 12 parts. 13 The first part is this afternoon and then 14 some of the parties have requested that we go back this 15 evening so that this evening will be -- the bus will 16 leave here at nine o'clock after -- because it will be 17 dark then. 18 There's no way we can replicate the 19 conditions of September the 6th, 1995 as I believe I may 20 have mentioned earlier, the moon's in a different phase. 21 We have a rainy day today, cloud cover. 22 There are lights that weren't there and -- 23 but given the fact that we were going to go this 24 afternoon and given the fact that some of the parties 25 have requested that we go back this evening, we've
1101 arranged that to -- so we can accommodate all of the 2 requests made by the parties. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, the idea 4 is the bus will take us there now and bring us back here. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The bus will -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And pick us 7 up again here at 9:00. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At nine o'clock. Yes. 9 Are there any questions about that? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long do 11 you think the view might take; do you have any idea? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think that the view 13 will take approximately an hour and a half, I would have 14 thought. What we're going to do is go to the former Army 15 Camp. We'll be entering the former Army Camp -- the -- 16 and going to some places in the camp, into the Park and 17 back out. 18 And then down to the intersection and also 19 along Highway 21 to Outer Drive and then we'll be back. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And with the 21 exception of the video, will there be any other record? 22 We're not going to bring our court reporter and -- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- ask 25 questions or anything like that? Do interviews?
1111 MR. DERRY MILLAR: This is simply -- this 2 is simply an opportunity, Commissioner, for people to 3 take a look at some of the scenes that are going to be -- 4 and places that are going to be described in the evidence 5 over the coming weeks. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sounds -- 7 sounds okay. Sounds fair to me. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Anybody have 10 any problems with the plan? So we'll now adjourn and the 11 bus is picking us up right here in the parking lot and 12 we'll hope that we have room for everybody who has signed 13 the waiver form. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 15 sir. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mr. 19 Thompson. 20 21 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We reconvene 24 here tomorrow morning at 9:00. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, sir.
1121 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 9:00 a.m. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This public Inquiry is 3 adjourned until tomorrow, Friday, September 10th at 9:00 4 a.m. 5 6 --- Upon adjourning at 3:13 p.m. 7 8 9 10 Certified Correct 11 12 13 14 15 16 _______________________ 17 Wendy Warnock 18 Court Reporter 19 20 21 22 23 24 25