1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 October 25th, 2005 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 16 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 Kevin Scullion ) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Mary Jane Moynahan )(np) 15 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 18 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 19 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 20 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 15 16 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) 23 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 24 Adam Goodman ) 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 LESLIE KAZO KOBAYASHI, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 11 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 147 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Douglas Sulman 192 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Anna Perschy 196 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 225 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 233 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Janet Clermont 246 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Vilko Zbogar 251 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 289 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-881: Document number 1008126. 4 E-mail from Gary Forma to Ian Seddon 5 Re: "Archeological Reports", Sept. 05/95. 37 6 P-882: Document number 1000343. Affidavit of Les 7 Kobayashi. 42 8 P-883: Document number 2000603. 9 Transcribed audio conversation between L. 10 Kobayashi and Rob Graham. 23:13 hours., 11 Sept. 06/95 73 12 P-884: Document number 1009242. E-mail from 13 P. Sturdy to Peter Allen cc. L. Kobayashi 14 Re: "Urgent: Closure of Pinery Prov. Park, 15 Sept. 07/95. 84 16 P-885: Document number 1008084. Notice to all 17 Park Vistors- L. Kobayashi, Sept. 07/95. 84 18 P-886: Document number 1008812. 19 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to P. Sturdy 20 Re: "Ipperwash Issue, Nov. 14/95 Update" 97 21 P-887: Document number 1008977. E-mail from L. 22 Kobayashi to P. Sturdy Re: "Ipperwash 23 Issue- Meeting Nov. 24/95" 98 24 25


1 EXHIBITS - CONTINUED 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-888: Document number 1008816. E-mail from L. 4 Kobayashi to P. Sturdy Re: "Ipperwash 5 Issue-Meeting Nov. 24/95, 3:00 p.m.", 6 Nov. 27/95. 99 7 P-889: Document number 1009204. 8 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to P. Sturdy 9 Re: "Ipperwash Meeting Dec. 02/95", 10 Dec. 04/95 102 11 P-890: Document number 1007213. 12 "Ipperwash Prov. Park - Waterline/Facility 13 Inspection and Shutdown - Dec. 03/95" 103 14 P-891: Document number 1012501. 15 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to P. Sturdy Re: 16 "Burial Site confirmation meeting - Cornwall 17 Jan. 15/96", Jan. 16/96 126 18 P-892: Document number 1009227. 19 E-mail from Bob Crowell Re: Ipperwash 20 situation, Sept. 18/95. 127 21 P-893: Document number 1012495. 22 E-mail from Joanne Orton to Various 23 Re: Notes from Ipperwash debriefing - Jan. 24 09/96, Jan. 10/96 130 25


1 EXHIBITS - CONTINUED 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-894: Document number 1012499. 4 E-mail cc'd to L. Kobayashi et al from 5 R. Baldwin Re: "Notes from Ipperwash 6 debriefing - Jan.06/96 - Hostile Occ.", 7 Jan. 15/96. 134 8 P-895: Document number 1008178 9 E-mail from Dave Jackson , MNR Communications 10 Re: "RHO Minutes - February", Feb. 02/96 139 11 P-896: Document number 1009201 E- mail from L. 12 Kobayashi to P. Sturdy Re: "Ipperwash 13 Issue". Jan. 04/96. 147 14 P-897: Document number 1012575. 15 Handwritten notes of Dan Elliott, 16 Sept. 05/95. 189 17 P-898: Document number 100991. 18 E-mail to L. Kobayashi from Brett Hodsdon 19 Re: "Emergency Plan Update" and attached 20 last version of the plan titled "Draft 21 Emergency Plan 1 -10", July /93 203 22 P-899: Document number 1009544. 23 E-mail from Daryl Smith to Distribution List 24 Re: Ipperwash Update on Question and Answer 25 Package, July 21/93 205


1 EXHIBITS - CONTINUED 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-900: Document number 3000405 4 Maynard George et al V. Harris et al. " 5 Answers to Undertakings" (Her Majesty the 6 Queen) April 03/02 211 7 P-901: Document number 1008117. 8 E- mail to L. Kobayashi et al from Dan 9 Elliott Re: "Ipperwash Situation 95/09/04 10 21:00 hr." Sept. 04/95. 216 11 P-902: Series of Park complaint occurrence 12 reports: Document number 1008080 - Book 13 number 55 - May 27/95; document number 1008066 14 - Book number 131A and number 131B - July 15 10/95; document number 1008065 - Book 133 - 16 July 12/95; document number 1008061 - Book 17 183/183A/183B - July 19/95; document number 18 1008060 - Book 2078 - July 26/95; document 19 number 1008051 - Book 264 -Aug. 07/95; 20 document number 1008034 - Book 307 - Aug. 21 27/95; document number 1008033 - Book 314 - 22 Aug. 31/95. 235 23 P-903: Document number 1012161 24 OPP Incident Report, Aug. 07/95 240 25


1 EXHIBITS - CONTINUED 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-904: Document number 1012161 4 OPP Incident Report, Sept. 04/95. 241 5 P-905: Document number 1008801 6 Letter from Paul Lennox to P. Sturdy, 7 Feb. 02/96. 274 8 P-906: Document number 3000370 9 Excerpt from Ch. 3 (pages 26 to 29) of 10 Report of - Joanne MacDonald 284 11 P-907: Document number 3001562 12 Fax from Paul Lennox to L. Kobayashi with 13 attached notes, Oct. 31/96. 286 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. Good morning. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. Good morning, Mr. Kobayashi. 10 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 11 12 LESLIE KOZO KOBAYAHI, Resumed; 13 14 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: I wish to return briefly to the 16 efforts you made to serve the notice under the Trespass 17 Property Act just to be -- to ensure that the record is 18 clear. 19 You indicated yesterday that two (2) 20 attempts were made in the early morning hours of 21 September the 5th, 1995, is that right? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And I believe you testified that the 24 first time you attempted service, you went to the Park 25 entrance inside the Park, near the sandy parking lot. Is


1 that -- 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And can you just point that out again 4 on the map so we're all clear about that? All right. So 5 just the other side of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp 6 Road? 7 A: That is correct. 8 Q: And is that -- now you made a second 9 attempt -- in between attempts, where did you go? 10 A: I -- I -- we just headed up Army Camp 11 Road towards the Camp Ipperwash towards some -- the gate 12 of Camp Ipperwash. 13 Q: No, I'm still -- 14 A: No, sorry. 15 Q: I'm speaking of your -- there were 16 four (4) attempts in total, correct? 17 A: There was four (4); there was two (2) 18 that evening. 19 Q: Right, and so -- 20 A: And one (1) the next morning, you 21 mean? Oh, two (2) the next morning? 22 Q: That's correct. 23 A: Are you referring -- 24 Q: I'm on number 2, so we're still -- 25 A: Oh --


1 Q: -- in the early morning -- 2 A: Oh, sorry. I pointed out to the 3 wrong location for the first attempt, then. 4 Q: Okay, what was the -- where was the 5 first attempt. 6 A: (INDICATING) 7 Q: All right, so that is -- see if I get 8 my directions right, south of the sandy parking lot? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: All right. And is that what you call 11 the main -- the main gate, or a different entrance? 12 A: That is the main entrance to 13 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 14 Q: All right, and then where did you go 15 prior -- in between the -- in between attempts, that is 16 the first and second attempts, early morning hours, 17 September 5th? 18 A: I believe -- I'm not sure, I don't 19 recollect, actually. 20 Q: All right, if you go to Tab 132. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: It's Exhibit P-879, the confidential


1 Crown brief, second page, bottom paragraph. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: "We returned to the parking lot where 4 we decided to go back for a second time 5 to serve this notice on someone else." 6 A: That is correct. 7 Q: Which parking lot? 8 A: I was referring to the Crown beach 9 parking lot on East Parkway. 10 Q: All right, the MNR parking lot? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Which became the site of the tactical 13 operations centre? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And when you then attempted second 16 service, where did you go? 17 A: We went to the -- this entrance here, 18 which is the Matheson Drive entrance. 19 Q: All right, so Matheson Drive and Army 20 Camp Road entrance. 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And was it gated? 23 A: Yes, it was, and I believe there was 24 a -- a Philips (phonetic) garbage dumpster there. 25 Q: All right. And is that --


1 A: Blocking the gate. 2 Q: Is that where you encountered the 3 individuals on the two (2) ATVs? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: Now, just looking at your -- the 6 Crown brief again, Tab 132, bottom of that brief. You 7 say: 8 "Officer George and myself proceed to 9 the main gate." 10 Is that the same location as Matheson 11 Drive and Army Camp Road? 12 A: No, it isn't actually. Just read 13 further here. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I believe that really should have 18 been Matheson Drive, at the dumpster. 19 Q: All right, so that's -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- an error in the brief, not in 22 your -- 23 A: I believe it is. 24 Q: -- recollection? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: Thank you. And when you encountered 2 the individuals, then, at Matheson Drive and Army Camp 3 Road, did you witness them in possession of any firearms? 4 A: It was very difficult to see that 5 night. It was extremely dark and with their lights -- 6 headlights facing towards us, it was very difficult to 7 see anything really other that themselves and we had our 8 own flashlights with which we could basically see the 9 occupants, but we really couldn't see much else; it was 10 extremely dark and -- 11 Q: All right, but did you see any? 12 A: I did not. 13 Q: All right. Did you see any weapons? 14 A: I did not. 15 Q: Other than the -- the verbal remarks 16 that were directed at you which you spoke of yesterday, 17 did they make any threatening gestures towards you, such 18 as throwing rocks or -- or waving sticks or anything like 19 that? 20 A: They did not. 21 Q: Thank you. Now, did you provide 22 Peter Sturdy with periodic reports from the command post 23 throughout the course of September the 5th and 6th? 24 A: I did. 25 Q: And who and what was your primary


1 source of the information that you relayed to Mr. Sturdy? 2 A: Could you say that again? 3 Q: Who or what was the main source of 4 the information you relayed to Mr. Sturdy? 5 A: There were several actually. The 6 majority of information that I received was from around 7 the briefings that they had at the command post. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And virtually I would say 99 percent 10 of it was from the briefings. 11 Q: Okay. And who conducted these 12 briefings? 13 A: There was an incident commander, 14 there was Inspector John Carson. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: And Inspector Dale Linton. 17 Q: Inspector... 18 A: Inspector Dale Linton. 19 Q: Linton? Yes. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. All right. Was -- to your -- 22 to your knowledge was Inspector Carson and Linton aware 23 that you were providing briefings to Peter Sturdy based 24 on the information you were receiving from them? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: And how is it that -- that you formed 2 that belief? 3 A: Actually we spoke about some of the 4 issues or some of the -- the details and they gave me an 5 office in the -- in the command post for the whole Forest 6 detachment to actually move information up to Mr. Sturdy. 7 Q: All right. Now, were the briefings 8 conducted in the -- the trailer? 9 A: They were not. Actually the 10 briefings were in the old Forest detachment in the 11 trailer which is the actual -- I guess the command 12 centre. The heart of the command centre was in the 13 parking lot at the detachment office. 14 Q: Were you ever in that trailer over 15 the course of the 5th and the 6th? 16 A: I believe there was once or twice. 17 Q: Now, were you aware in that Peter 18 Sturdy would be in turn relaying the information which 19 you provided to him to his peers and superiors within the 20 government? 21 A: Yes, I was. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Do you recall what room within the


1 Forest detachment the briefings were held in? 2 A: It was -- there was a larger room at 3 the front of the detachment office which faced the -- the 4 street. 5 Q: All right. Is that the location? 6 A: Yes, that was the location of it. It 7 was right virtually -- if you looked at the building, 8 facing the building it would be the front of the 9 building. 10 You would have the garage on the right- 11 hand side and I believe there's some small offices on the 12 left and at the front half of the building in the centre 13 was a larger room where they had the briefings. 14 Q: All right. Thank you. Were you ever 15 asked to leave one (1) of these briefings? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Were any restrictions placed on how 18 and what you were allowed to relay to Mr. Sturdy? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Would Inspector Carson or Linton or 21 other officers at the briefing qualify any reports of 22 information as they relayed them to you and -- and the 23 others? 24 A: I don't believe so. 25 Q: At the time did you have any


1 appreciation as to the sensitive nature of some of the 2 information you were being provided with and which you in 3 turn provided to Mr. Sturdy? 4 A: I would say that virtually my role 5 really was to move information forward and as -- as far 6 as the sensitivity I -- I felt all of it was sensitive to 7 be quite honest with you. 8 Q: All right. And why did you think it 9 was all sensitive? 10 A: Well, mainly because it was dealing 11 with a major issue and that's about it really. I just 12 felt it was all sensitive information and it wasn't 13 really my role to determine whether it was sensitive or - 14 - or not sensitive -- 15 Q: All right. 16 A: -- I didn't feel at that time. 17 Q: Now similarly, did you make any 18 judgement with respect to the accuracy and reliability of 19 the information which you passed on to Mr. Sturdy? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: Were you aware that Mr. Sturdy was 22 passing on some of this information to the 23 Interministerial Committee? 24 A: At that time I perhaps was. Up to 25 that point in time I really know what Interministerial


1 Committee was to be quite honest with you. 2 Q: All right. But you came to know it - 3 - of it over the 5th and the 6th? 4 A: I did so. 5 Q: And what was your understanding of 6 the -- the role and -- and composition of that Committee? 7 A: To be honest with you, I -- I really 8 wasn't sure what the role and responsibilities of that 9 committee were; I just knew that it was a committee that 10 Peter was a part of and at that particular point in time 11 I was really worried more so about what was actually 12 happening on the ground and with my staff and so forth, 13 so, I -- I just felt that my role was to move the 14 information to Peter and Peter could then move it forward 15 wherever. 16 Q: When you passed along information did 17 you make any assumptions with respect to its reliability 18 and accuracy? 19 A: I would say that if -- I would say 20 that I felt that it was reliable if it was brought around 21 the Briefing Table, yes. 22 Q: Did it appear to you at any time that 23 Inspector Carson appeared reluctant to have you at any of 24 these briefings? 25 A: No, I don't believe so.


1 Q: Now, when you provided reports to Mr. 2 Sturdy, arising from the briefings at the Detachment, 3 were they always verbal, that is via telephone? 4 A: Not always, I -- I would feel I did 5 them through my e-mails, for the most part. 6 Q: E-mails or verbal communication? 7 A: That's correct, both. 8 Q: How many briefings did you attend 9 over the course of the 5th and the 6th of September, 10 approximately? 11 A: I really don't know. I -- I imagine 12 there was five (5) or six (6) perhaps, I -- I really 13 don't have any recollection; there were just -- it was a 14 very busy time, and I just -- 15 Q: There were a few? 16 A: There were a few. 17 Q: All right. On each of the days? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: To your knowledge, were you present 20 at all of the briefings conducted in this room in the 21 Detachment? 22 A: On the 4th and 5th? 23 Q: 5th and 6th. 24 A: Or, 5th and 6th? I may have missed 25 one, that I believe Ed Vervoort attended, and whether it


1 was the 6th or the 7th, in there someplace, I missed one 2 (1) or two (2) I suppose. 3 Q: Okay. And Ed Vervoort substituted 4 for your on those occasions? 5 A: Actually he was in -- he was in at 6 the -- the briefings as well. 7 Q: Okay. Was anyone else from the 8 Ministry present at these briefings? 9 A: Not to my knowledge, no. 10 Q: All right. How long were you present 11 at the -- the Detachment on the 5th? 12 A: All day. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Probably twenty-four (24) hours. 15 Q: You didn't go home during that time 16 period? 17 A: I don't -- I don't believe I did. 18 Q: So apart from the attempted service, 19 basically you were stationed at the -- the Forest 20 Detachment? 21 A: Correct? 22 Q: Now, aside from passing along 23 information, if you will, to Mr. Sturdy, did you have an 24 understanding as to what -- any other roles that you had 25 during the 5th and 6th?


1 A: Yes. We had several inquiries for 2 logistical support, such as requesting cement barriers to 3 be placed in certain locations and request for helicopter 4 as well, support at the -- at the Pinery Park for the -- 5 some of the OPP officers that were involved in the -- in 6 the issue, such as providing meals and so forth, and also 7 providing meals to a number of the OPP officers that were 8 actually out in the field and at the Command Post and so 9 forth. 10 We -- the meeting centre -- we had people 11 brought into -- to make meals and lunch, bagged lunches 12 and so forth. 13 Q: Did you perform any other 14 communication roles, for example, fielding calls from the 15 public or from local politicians or anything of that 16 sort? 17 A: No. I -- I really didn't field many 18 -- many questions or inquiries. There was one occasion 19 when MPP Marcel Beaubien actually came to the command 20 post but I didn't do any updates to them to speak of. 21 Really the updates and communications for 22 the Ministry of Natural Resources was performed by Daryl 23 Smith. I believe it was the Legion. 24 Q: Now did you have an understanding of 25 the police strategy as at September the 5th based on your


1 participation at these briefings? 2 A: Pardon me? Could you say that again? 3 Q: Did you have an understanding of what 4 the police strategy for managing or dealing with the 5 occupation was? 6 A: Yes, I did. Through all the 7 briefings and -- and so forth and around the command post 8 it was still resolution through peaceful negotiations. 9 And I -- I recall that being said on many, many 10 occasions. 11 Q: And did you have any concerns about 12 the police approach as you understood them? 13 A: No. I thought it was very 14 professional. No, I -- I thought it was very good. 15 Q: And did the Ministry of Natural 16 Resources have a role within that approach and strategy? 17 A: I don't believe so, other than 18 serving notice and doing the -- the things that I was 19 requested to do. 20 Q: You indicated that you were asked to 21 by the -- by the police to provide some support. Was one 22 of the supports an MNR helicopter? 23 A: Yes, it was. 24 Q: And did you make that request of Mr. 25 Sturdy?


1 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: To your knowledge was one provided? 3 A: Yes. it was. 4 Q: Can you just describe what that 5 helicopter looked like? 6 A: I -- I don't recollect. 7 Q: All right. Do you recall whether 8 more than one (1) was provided over the course of the 5th 9 and 6th? 10 A: I believe there was two (2). 11 Q: And you indicated that cement 12 barriers were requested? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: What was the -- do you have an 15 understanding as to what the police wanted with them? 16 A: Well, actually what I would do would 17 be to contact one of my assistants that would actually 18 make the arrangements for placement or where they would 19 want them. 20 They wanted some around the command post 21 as well and I do recall that our contractor that we used 22 placed them around the command post, but there were other 23 locations too I believe. 24 Q: Are you aware as to where locations 25 they wished to place them?


1 A: No, not at this time. 2 Q: And did you -- you were able to 3 facilitate that request? 4 A: I was. 5 Q: Now did you become aware that the OPP 6 had also set up a mobile centre called the 'Tactical 7 Operations Centre' in the MNR parking lot off East 8 Parkway Drive? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Did you have occasion to go to the 11 Tactical Operations Centre? 12 A: I did not. 13 Q: Now were you aware that a INC meeting 14 was scheduled to occur at eleven o'clock that morning? 15 A: I was not. 16 Q: Did you have any conversations with 17 Peter Sturdy in advance of that meeting? Prior to eleven 18 o'clock? 19 A: I don't recollect. 20 Q: And we have heard evidence from Mr. 21 Sturdy to the effect that some of the information he 22 reported to the Interministerial Committee meeting 23 relating to what was transpiring at the Park came from 24 you. 25 And I'm wondering whether you agree or


1 disagree with his recollection in that regard? 2 A: I'm sure -- I'm sure -- sorry. 3 Q: Now I'll ask for specific facts. All 4 right. First of all, did you tell him that the MNR was 5 denied access to the Park's maintenance facilities and 6 were unable to proceed with the closure of the Park's 7 physical plans? 8 A: I believe I did. 9 Q: Did you tell him that the MNR 10 attempted to or that you attempted to serve notice upon 11 the Stoney Pointers but were unwilling, because would no 12 one would accept service? 13 A: I'm sure I did. 14 Q: Did you tell him that there had been 15 no identified spokesperson or leader for that group? 16 A: I'm sure I did. 17 Q: Did you advise him that there had 18 been not yet been any discussions between the Stoney 19 Pointers and either representatives from the MNR or the 20 OPP? 21 A: I'm sure I did. 22 Q: Did you tell him that the group, 23 however, had not yet resorted to violence? 24 A: Other than what occurred at the -- at 25 the main gate when we were -- were asked to leave, I


1 believe I did; that's true. 2 Q: Did you advise Mr. Sturdy that the 3 group may have stolen an OPP car? 4 A: I don't recollect. 5 Q: Do you recall receiving that 6 information at a briefing? 7 A: I don't recollect. 8 Q: Do you recall whether or not you 9 advised him that it appeared that the occupiers had cut 10 down some trees within the Park? 11 A: I believe I did advise him of that. 12 Q: Is that something you learned in the 13 briefing? 14 A: No, I believe I learned that the 15 night when Don Matheson called me, because he had 16 referred to some trees being cut and that the -- the 17 occupiers were occupying the Park. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I may have heard it in the briefing 22 as well, but I know it was brought to my attention by Don 23 at that time, too. 24 Q: Did you advise him that the main 25 entrance to the Park had been blocked by a vehicle?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And is that something you learned 3 through your observation or from a briefing? 4 A: I saw that, yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Did you tell him that -- or, let me 9 ask you this first. Did you learn through OPP briefings 10 that OPP check stops had been set up along Highway 21 and 11 the -- the neighbouring roads? 12 A: I'm really unsure if I did or not, to 13 be quite honest. There were so many things happening. 14 Q: Is that the kind of information -- 15 A: It -- 16 Q: -- that was relayed, however, at 17 these briefings? 18 A: It was. 19 Q: Did you indicate to him that there 20 was no indication that you knew of that the Stoney 21 Pointers were armed? 22 A: Perhaps. 23 Q: Is that the type of thing that was 24 discussed at these briefings? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Do you recall learning that 2 information in a briefing? 3 A: No, I don't recall. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Do you recall learning that only 8 seven (7) to nine (9) First Nations persons were 9 occupying the Park as at approximately 10:00 in the 10 morning on the -- September 5th? 11 A: I believe that was in one of the 12 briefings. 13 Q: Do you recall whether or not Mr. 14 Sturdy called you during the course of the IMC meeting? 15 A: I don't recall. I don't imagine he 16 did, though. 17 Q: Did you provide any information to 18 Mr. Sturdy with respect to the injunction process and the 19 expectations of the OPP in that regard? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: Do you recall there being any 22 discussion at the briefings concerning the OP -- the 23 injunction issue? 24 A: On the -- on the 5th and 6th, I 25 believe there was conversations with -- with the Ontario


1 Provincial Police, yes, with respect to the injunction. 2 Q: And in the course of those briefings 3 or discussions, did you form any impression as to what 4 the OPP's expectations of the MNR were in that respect? 5 A: I believe the expectation was that 6 the MNR would provide the injunction and at that 7 particular point in time I believe it was Peter Sturdy 8 who was going to be swearing out the -- or taking out the 9 injunction. 10 Q: Now, to your knowledge, were there 11 any attempts made on the 5th to open up a dialogue or 12 line of communication with the occupiers? 13 A: On the 5th? Yes, we tried to serve - 14 - take -- Sergeant Wright and myself tried to serve 15 notice and I know Sergeant Wright was trying to open up 16 dialogue. 17 Q: Do you recall attending at the Park 18 with Dan Elliott, Sergeant Wright, Brad -- and Brad 19 Seltzer? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: You don't recall that? 22 A: No, I don't. 23 Q: Okay. Were you involved in any such 24 attempts with other individuals to try to initiate 25 communication aside from the attempted service, that you


1 can recall? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Did the issue of burial grounds come 7 up during the course of the -- the briefings at the 8 detachment? 9 A: I believe I was asked that -- if 10 there were burial grounds and I'm not sure if it was in 11 the briefings or outside of the briefings, to be honest 12 with you, but I do recall being asked at some point. 13 Q: Asked by whom? 14 A: That -- I -- I don't recollect who, 15 but I -- 16 Q: Well, it was from somebody from the 17 OPP or -- 18 A: Oh, from the OPP, yes. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And do you recall what you response 22 was? 23 A: I -- my response would have been that 24 there wasn't, to our knowledge, any burial -- burial 25 grounds and I'm sure I would have indicated that there


1 had been research and -- and plans and so forth and -- 2 and so forth and nothing had been discovered. 3 Q: And when you refer to these research 4 and plans, what -- what research had been done to that 5 point? 6 A: There had been natural and life 7 science research completed in the Park for the -- or 8 prior -- even prior to the management plan. 9 When a park is established you try to 10 determine what the significant resources of the park are, 11 the flora and fauna and historical research that was done 12 in respect to the park itself, and through all of the 13 reports and correspondence that I -- I had seen to date 14 there was nothing to indicate that there were burial 15 sites. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Other than when I was served 18 bailiff's order. 19 Q: Did you come to understand that that 20 was possibly one (1) of the factors which motivated the 21 occupation? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And when did you come to understand 24 that? 25 A: I believe it was at that -- at that


1 particular -- the night of the occupation actually. I 2 believe Judas had indicated that it was burial grounds or 3 sacred -- sacred ground and it was theirs. 4 Q: All right. And as a result did you - 5 - well, did you pass that information along to Mr. Sturdy 6 that -- that this was possibly one (1) of the motivating 7 factors? 8 A: I'm sure I did. 9 Q: And as a result are you aware as to 10 whether any additional research was conducted? 11 A: I'm sure that -- that files were 12 being searched and I believe there was archeological 13 people contacted right around in that time. I'm not sure 14 if it was right on the 4th or 5th, but I do recall that 15 Peter was following up and trying to research out and see 16 if there was anything that had fallen through the cracks 17 or whatever. 18 Q: And did you continue to -- were you 19 able to pick up your e-mail during the course of the 5th 20 and 6th at the detachment? 21 A: I believe my -- the -- my computer 22 was set up on the 5th. 23 Q: All right. Would you go to Tab 137, 24 please? It's been marked already as Exhibit P-788 25 Inquiry Document 1008121, e-mail dated September 5, 1995


1 at 9:15 a.m. from Peter Sturdy -- sorry, to Peter Sturdy 2 from Dan Elliott and you're shown as having received a 3 copy? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And the first indication is that the 6 Kettle and Stony Point Band chief Tom Bressette has been 7 contacted and is in full support of MNR and OPP position 8 and plans. 9 Were you aware of that information? 10 A: At some point I was aware of it, I'm 11 not sure if it's at this particular time. I'm not sure I 12 picked up my e-mails until later on that day -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- because my computer at the command 15 post I don't believe was set up until some time during 16 the 5th. 17 Q: All right. You would have picked it 18 up then though? 19 A: Yes, I would have, yes. 20 Q: And the second item is the native 21 occupants of Ipperwash Park. It states: 22 "The Park contains ancestral burial 23 ground, however, archeological studies 24 done by the Ministry of Culture and 25 Recreation in the early 1970's did not


1 identify any ancestral burial grounds, 2 Neal Ferris from the Ministry Culture 3 and Recreation was the archaeologist." 4 Is that the information that -- that you 5 were aware of already? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And that you passed along to the OPP? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And the next Tab 138 is Inquiry 10 Document number 1008126, e-mail dated September 5th at 11 11:04 a.m. from Gary Forma, Ian Seddon, and you're shown 12 as having received a copy. 13 And is that a further indication with 14 respect to the archaeological research done that you were 15 relying on? 16 A: Correct. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Make that the next 18 exhibit please? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-881, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-881: Document number 1008126. 22 E-mail from Gary Forma to Ian 23 Seddon Re: " Archeological 24 Reports", Sept. 05/'95. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Now, as of the 5th, what was your 3 assessment of the level of risk for potential violence to 4 occur at the Park? 5 A: It was very high. 6 Q: Very high? 7 A: Very high, yes. 8 Q: And what was that based on? 9 A: Oh, just a sense of intensity that -- 10 and the actions that were occurring in respect to the 11 Ontario Provincial Police actions for one (1). Things 12 were certainly escalating, I -- I thought, or I had that 13 impression, that they were. 14 Q: All right. What -- what roles were 15 your Park staff playing in relation to the Park as of 16 September 5th? 17 A: As of September 5th all the -- all of 18 our Park staff were virtually working out of Pinery. 19 Once again providing logistical support, and once again, 20 we were still operating a large Park, with a lot of 21 people in it, and we -- most of the -- the Ipperwash -- 22 Ipperwash issue was over and above what we normally would 23 do, so we were very busy. 24 Q: All right. If you look at Tab 140, 25 Inquiry Document 1012264, I believe this is Exhibit P-


1 819. E-mail dated September 5th, 1995 at 2:33 p.m. from 2 Dan Elliott, it's entitled, Ipperwash Update Number 2. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And would you have received a copy of 5 this e-mail? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Did you have a -- and did this 8 accurately summarize the -- the key events, to your 9 knowledge, as of 2:33 p.m. on September the 5th? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. Now you indicated that 12 later in the afternoon, or in the early afternoon of -- 13 of the 5th, you attended at the Army Camp Base to attempt 14 service of the notice; is that right? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And that was an unsuccessful attempt? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Now, did you identify at that time, 19 any barriers to negotiation? 20 A: I'm sorry, I don't understand. 21 Q: Did you -- did you -- 22 A: Cement barriers, or -- 23 Q: Well, it could have been. No, I'm 24 wondering whether you had formed any impressions as to 25 why it was you weren't able to initiate meaningful


1 communication with the occupiers? 2 A: They just wouldn't talk to us. In 3 actual fact, I believe Sergeant Wright, on the second 4 attempt on that particular day did speak with individuals 5 in regard -- at the fence, in regards to -- to service of 6 notice. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: I don't believe they accepted the 9 paper, but they were advised why he was there. 10 Q: Were you able to overhear that? 11 A: Parts of it, yes. 12 Q: Okay. And did -- to your knowledge, 13 had anyone been identified as a leader or spokesperson on 14 behalf of the group? 15 A: On the 5th I don't believe there was. 16 Q: Did you have any understanding as to 17 what their decision making process was? 18 A: At that time, no. 19 Q: Did you have any safety concerns with 20 respect to attending at the Army Camp? 21 A: I had safety concerns right from 22 Day 1 in respect to my own personal safety and obviously 23 the safety of the staff and so forth, yes. 24 Q: Do you recall what you did after you 25 left the Army Camp Base at one o'clock or thereabouts?


1 A: I do not. 2 Q: Do you recall whether or not you 3 assisted a lawyer with respect to drafting an affidavit? 4 A: I don't recall, but refresh my 5 memory, I'm sure I did. Perhaps I -- 6 Q: Well if we go to Tab 155, it's 7 Inquiry Document Number 1000343, this appears to be a 8 draft affidavit in your name. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And do you recall reviewing this 11 document with anyone? 12 A: This document was reviewed probably a 13 couple of times by myself. My main contact, I believe, 14 was Tim McCabe and Liz -- Elizabeth Christie. 15 Q: Okay. Did you also have dealings 16 with Leith Hunter? 17 A: I may have, but I don't recollect if 18 I did or not. 19 Q: Do you know whether or not this is 20 the version that you -- well, let me ask you this: Did 21 you ultimately swear an affidavit? 22 A: I did later, yes. 23 Q: Do you recall whether this is the 24 version that you swore or is this a draft? 25 A: I don't recall. It appears to be the


1 document that I -- I signed. But I don't see a signed 2 copy on it, so... 3 Q: No, it's not signed. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: But it's one that you did review; 6 correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. Make this the next 9 exhibit, please. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-882, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-882: Document number 1000343. 13 Affidavit of Les Kobayashi. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: Now, were you always the person who 17 was designated to swear an Affidavit? 18 A: I was not. 19 Q: Who was the original person? 20 A: Peter Sturdy. 21 Q: And do you recall what gave rise to 22 the decision to -- to have you swear the affidavit rather 23 than him? 24 A: I don't recall what the exact reason 25 was.


1 Q: All right. Now I -- I just notice in 2 this document, in the Title of Proceedings, there's a 3 reference to an individual named Judas Nanning 4 (phonetic). 5 A: That actually, in this draft it was 6 simply -- this document, I believe, was a draft, because 7 I did change that to reflect Judas George, I believe it 8 was, -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: -- at a later time. 11 Q: Thank you. And did you or your staff 12 play any role in assisting with the closing-off of 13 certain roads in and around the Park? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: Did you receive information during 16 the course of briefings at the Detachment with respect to 17 the steps the police were taking to manage and 18 investigate the situation? 19 A: I was. 20 Q: And can you recall what it was you 21 were advised about the specifics of those operations? 22 A: I don't recall to be honest with you. 23 Q: Do you recall whether or not you were 24 informed that there was an OPP boat that had been 25 deployed?


1 A: I believe so, yes. 2 Q: Were you advised as to whether or not 3 there was surveillance cameras running within the Park? 4 A: I was. 5 Q: Were you advised as to whether or not 6 there were background profiles being worked up with 7 respect to the occupants? 8 A: I was. 9 Q: Were you advised with respect to any 10 information concerning the potential existing of arms 11 within the Park? 12 A: I was. 13 Q: Did you form any, or were you ever 14 told by anyone during the course of these briefings that 15 there was a concern that the Aboriginal people had guns 16 in the Park, or firearms of any kind in the Park? 17 A: I'm sure I was. 18 Q: As of September the 5th, had you 19 formed any independent belief with respect to whether or 20 not there were likely firearms in the Park? 21 A: I -- I would say I did. 22 Q: And what belief did you form? 23 A: I felt there -- that there -- from 24 the information in the briefings and the -- the knowledge 25 that I had to date, that there was firearms.


1 Q: And when you say from the -- the 2 briefings, what specifically in the briefings led you to 3 that belief? 4 A: I believe there was an occasion when 5 it was reported that there was automatic gunfire coming 6 from the base. 7 Q: From the base? 8 A: From the base in the Park. From that 9 area. 10 Q: And was there any other information 11 from the briefings that you relied upon? 12 A: I -- I don't recollect from the 13 briefings. 14 Q: And you said that there was other 15 knowledge that you -- you used to inform your impression? 16 A: Well, the occurrence reports and so 17 forth from the previous years indicated that there had 18 been gunfire coming from the base. Also the fact that a 19 military helicopter had been shot down, so I assumed that 20 there were firearms there. 21 Q: All right. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And if you go to Tab 126 it's been


1 made Exhibit P-874, Inquiry Document 10076 -- sorry 7969 2 and the last page. There's a Park complaint and 3 occurrence report dated August 27, 1995. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And is this a report that you would 6 have reviewed? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: It indicates -- it says: 9 "Concerning gunshots coming from... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 14 what tab is it? 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 126. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well 126 17 I've got -- 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Last page. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Last page? 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: It says: 25 "Concerning gunshots coming from


1 Matheson Drive [mound is it]?" 2 A: Around. 3 Q: "around." Yes, around thank you. 4 Okay. In any event is this one of the reports that 5 informed your impression? 6 A: Yes, it is. 7 Q: And reports like this? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did you ever raise this -- this 10 belief, that is that there might be guns in the Park or 11 firearms in the Park with Peter Sturdy? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: And did you raise it with anyone else 14 at the MNR? 15 A: Through these occurrence reports or 16 at that time? 17 Q: No, during the 5th and 6th of 18 September. 19 A: I don't believe I did with MNR. 20 Q: Just Peter Sturdy? 21 A: I believe that's who I was contacting 22 at the time, yes. 23 Q: Okay. Now at some point in time was 24 it suggested to you that you and your staff wear 25 bulletproof vests?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And do you recall who suggested that? 3 A: I don't recall the individual person 4 but I was at the OPP command post and in actual fact I 5 believe the helicopter pilot actually requested a vest as 6 well and his belief was that we were the only two (2) 7 people in the command post or in the operation without 8 vests. 9 Everybody was wearing a vest including Ed 10 Vervoort who was issued a vest because of his compliance 11 role. So they felt that it was prudent. And they were 12 concerned about our safety as well. And they provided us 13 with OPP body armour. 14 Q: I take it it's the OPP who made the 15 suggestion? 16 A: I believe it was, yes. 17 Q: And provided with you the vest? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And what if anything did this request 20 or this suggestion signify to you? 21 A: They were concerned about my safety 22 and the pilot's safety. 23 Q: Did you tell Peter Sturdy about this 24 development? 25 A: I sure did.


1 Q: And did you raise any concerns in 2 relation to this development? 3 A: I don't recollect if I did. 4 Q: All right. Did this give cause to 5 any concerns on your part with respect to the safety of 6 your other staff? 7 A: I would say at that time, no. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: Only because most of the staff -- the 10 staff weren't working that particular area, they were 11 working at Pinery. 12 Q: All right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, to your knowledge, was there any 17 other discussions or attempts to enter into discussions 18 made with the occupiers on September the 5th, other than 19 what you've told us? 20 A: I don't recollect. 21 Q: All right. Did you give any thought 22 as to how, perhaps, you or your staff might have better 23 opportunity or success initiating such dialogue given, 24 especially, your Park staff's history in the area? 25 A: I don't believe that my staff would


1 have been willing or would have I asked them to do so, to 2 serve -- attempt to serve notice or myself. I attempted 3 to, I wasn't received in a -- in a manner where they 4 would accept the -- the notice. 5 I believe we made attempts frequent enough 6 to know, you know, to determine that. 7 Q: All right. And did you go home at 8 all during the evening of the 5th, early morning hours of 9 the 6th? 10 A: I don't believe I did. 11 Q: And again, where did you spend your 12 time overnight? 13 A: Probably in the command post for the 14 most part, yes. 15 Q: All right. Did anything else of 16 significance happen -- happen over the -- the evening or 17 early morning hours into the 6th? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Into the -- into the 6th or going out 22 of the 6th? Yeah -- 23 Q: Yeah -- 24 A: The night of the 5th? 25 Q: End of the 5th.


1 A: Night of the 5th? I don't recollect 2 if there was. 3 Q: Okay. Moving then to September the 4 6th. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you recall whether or not you went 7 down to the Park at any time on the 6th? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: Do you recall whether or not you went 13 to the army camp base that day? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: It was a -- it was a blur by then. I 17 was just all -- all -- for two (2) or three (3) days 18 there it was just a -- just a blur really. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And if it's not in one of your e- 22 mails that -- 23 A: It probably -- 24 Q: -- it was likely that you didn't go 25 to the Park --


1 A: That is correct. 2 Q: -- or the army camp. 3 A: That is correct. 4 Q: All right. However, you continued to 5 attend at further briefings at the command post that day? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: Okay. And that was throughout the 8 course of the day? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: At any time during these briefings on 11 the 6th were you asked to comment on the Ministry's role 12 of progress in relation to obtaining an injunction? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And can you recall what you told the 15 inspector? 16 A: I don't recall exactly what I told 17 him, but perhaps you can refresh my memory. 18 Q: All right. Were you asked whether or 19 not the Ministry was still on side in terms of favouring 20 an injunction as the legal means by which to have the 21 occupiers removed? 22 A: I believe I was telling them that we 23 were working on an injunction, yes; continuing to work on 24 an injunction. 25 Q: All right. Did that seem to be of


1 concern to the OPP? 2 A: I don't recollect. 3 Q: And did you continue to speak with 4 the -- your colleagues at the MNR offices about the 5 injunction? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And at any point during the course of 8 your conversations did you sense any reluctance on the 9 part of the MNR with respect to the -- to what -- to -- 10 to securing an injunction? 11 A: In actual fact, my only role, really, 12 was to review what was prepared and faxed to me then pass 13 along in respect to its accuracy. 14 I don't believe I was in any discussion in 15 respect to if we should or if we shouldn't, those types 16 of questions. 17 Q: All right. To your knowledge, were 18 there any further attempts made by the OPP and/or 19 yourself to initiate communications with the First 20 Nations people on the 6th? 21 A: I don't recollect it, at all. 22 Q: All right. Did you continue to 23 provide briefings to Mr. Sturdy over the course of the 24 6th? 25 A: I'm sure I did.


1 Q: All right. And again was the source 2 of your information the briefings at the detachment? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And did the information continue to 5 include reports relating to the policing operations 6 concerning the occupation? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And the state of affairs, if you 9 will, within the Park, from the perspective of the 10 police? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And in turn were you asked by 13 Inspector Carson, from time to time, to obtain and 14 provide information in relation to the Park? 15 A: I don't recall the specifics. 16 Q: Do you recall, on the 6th, receiving 17 any information during the briefings with respect to 18 Marcel Beaubien? 19 A: There was a moment -- a moment in 20 time on -- I -- I'm not sure if it's the 5th or the exact 21 date. 22 Q: All right. The 5th or the 6th? 23 A: But Marcel Beaubien came to the 24 command post, yes. 25 Q: And were you present when he did


1 that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you recall what transpired when he 4 came? 5 A: Not in detail other than that we were 6 asked -- I believe I attended -- that was one (1) of the 7 occasions when I was asked to go into the command post 8 itself and -- and I actually don't -- don't recall which 9 inspector it was that was there at the time, but I do 10 recall going into the command post and Marcel Beaubien -- 11 Beaubien expressing his concern in respect to the issue 12 and concern that had been expressed to him by his 13 constituents. 14 Q: All right. And do you recall what 15 the nature of that concern was that he expressed? 16 A: The -- the community itself was -- 17 was very concerned about the -- their safety and actually 18 what was going on, yes. 19 Q: And did he make any comment with 20 respect to his contacts within the government? 21 A: I don't recollect that part of it, 22 yes. 23 Q: All right. Was that the only time, 24 to your knowledge, that Mr. Beaubien was at the command 25 post?


1 A: To the best of my recollection. 2 Q: Did you, in turn, advise Peter Sturdy 3 of -- of this visit? 4 A: I'm sure I did. 5 Q: All right. Do you recall whether or 6 not Inspector Carson advised on -- that -- that the 7 Stoney Pointers had appointed Bert Manning as their 8 spokesperson? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q: Do you recall whether or not a 11 meeting had been scheduled to take place on the afternoon 12 of September the 6th, as between the OPP and the Stoney 13 Pointers? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: Now, Mr. Sturdy testified that he 16 likely received certain information from you during the 17 course of the telephone calls on September the 6th, and 18 I'm just going to ask you whether or not it is likely you 19 provided him with the following information. 20 Did you learn during the course of the 21 briefings that a controlled fire had been ignited in the 22 middle of County Road Number 21? 23 A: I don't recall. It's likely. 24 Q: Is that -- 25 A: If it did occur, yes.


1 Q: And is that something you would have 2 found out from the briefings? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did you find out that trees had been 5 cut down along the Park -- along Matheson Drive to form a 6 -- a barrier? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: That -- that Park picnic tables had 9 been used as a blockade to the access road which led to 10 the Park? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And using the map do you recall which 13 access road the -- the picnic tables were set up? 14 A: The actual location I don't recollect 15 to be quite honest. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: I -- I assumed -- I wasn't there. It 18 would have been in this area -- in this area there. 19 Q: You're pointing to the sandy parking 20 lot at Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Why is it that you assume it was that 23 one? 24 A: I believe our staff were sent down to 25 that area to help remove them.


1 Q: All right. And that was the morning 2 of the 6th? 3 A: I don't recollect exactly which day 4 it was in. 5 Q: All right. Did you find out that the 6 -- that MNR equipment was being used in the Park? 7 A: What type of equipment? I don't 8 recollect, to be honest with you. 9 Q: All right. Do you recall receiving 10 information that there had been break-ins into the 11 buildings at the Park? 12 A: I do recall that, yes. 13 Q: All right. Did you also learn, 14 during the course of the briefings, the status of 15 delaying of criminal charges and warrants for arrests? 16 A: I believe so. 17 Q: Did you learn that aerial 18 surveillance was being conducted during these briefings? 19 A: I believe so. 20 Q: And is it likely that you provided 21 all of this information to Peter Sturdy during the course 22 of your briefings on -- 23 A: I believe so. 24 Q: -- on the 6th? All right. Again, 25 were any restrictions or qualifications placed on you by


1 either Inspector Carson or Linton with respect to your 2 relaying of any of this information? 3 A: Not at this time. 4 Q: And you indicated that at some point 5 you received a report concerning gunshots. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Can you tell me a little bit more 8 specifically about that report? 9 A: Only that it was brought out at a 10 briefing, I believe, by Sergeant Graham, I believe. It 11 was one of the points that I believe he brought forward. 12 Q: Specifically, what did he advise at 13 the briefing? 14 A: That there had been automatic gunfire 15 coming from the -- that particular area, and I believe 16 Constable Parks actually reported it to Graham. 17 Q: And did you, in turn, relay this 18 information to Peter Sturdy? 19 A: I did so. 20 Q: And look -- if you would look at 21 Tab 144, this is Inquiry Document Number 1009033, it's an 22 e-mail from Peter Sturdy entitled, "Ipperwash Status 23 Report Number 2," September 6th, 1995. It's Exhibit 24 Number P-787. 25 And he's reporting that the following


1 developments occurred overnight, that: 2 "Four (4) OPP vehicles were damaged by 3 rocks during night patrols." 4 Now, were you informed of that during the 5 course of a briefing? 6 A: I'm sure I was. 7 Q: And you would have relayed that to 8 Mr. Sturdy? 9 A: I'm sure I did. 10 Q: And second: 11 "A hundred to a hundred and fifty 12 rounds of automatic gunfire were 13 reported from within Ipperwash Park." 14 Does that accord with your recollection? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: That it was from within the Park and 17 not the Army Camp? 18 A: That is correct. 19 Q: Okay. Also that heavy equipment was 20 heard to be working within the Park? 21 A: Correct? And was that the equipment 22 that you were referring to earlier? 23 Q: Not necessarily. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: All right. And did you understand


1 also that there would be a surveillance flight that day 2 to try to determine the extent and purpose of the heavy 3 equipment? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And to your knowledge, was that 6 purpose determined and relayed at the -- at a briefing? 7 A: I don't recollect. 8 Q: All right. And with respect to the 9 alleged damage of the OPP vehicles, were you provided 10 with any context or the circumstances giving rise to 11 that? 12 A: I'm sure there -- there was details 13 surrounding that, but I don't recollect. 14 Q: All right. Do you recollect the 15 circumstances, in other words, surrounding the -- the 16 hearing of the rounds of automatic gunfire, as reported? 17 A: Only that, I believe -- I believe it 18 was Constable Parks that actually reported it, that's the 19 only thing I recall. 20 Q: Okay. Fair enough. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And you indicated that your staff was 25 asked to attend down at the sandy parking lot to remove


1 picnic tables? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: To your knowledge were they asked to 4 wear bullet proof vests? 5 A: To my knowledge, I don't know. 6 Q: Okay. Was there any further 7 discussion on September the 6th as to whether and if so, 8 how to provide notice to the occupiers under the Trespass 9 to Property Act? 10 A: I don't recollect. 11 Q: Do you recall whether it was 12 suggested that notices be posted in and around the Park? 13 A: I do recall something of that nature, 14 yes. 15 Q: And do you know whether or not that 16 was done? 17 A: I do not know. 18 Q: Sorry? 19 A: I don't know. 20 Q: You didn't require it to be done? 21 A: I didn't do it, no. 22 Q: And you didn't ask your staff to do 23 it? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: All right. Did you receive any


1 information at these briefings at the Detachment 2 concerning the situation of the cottages adjacent to the 3 west side of the Park? 4 A: I understand at one (1) briefing that 5 it was brought to -- brought to the table that -- that a 6 couple of the cottages had been broken into, yes. 7 Q: All right. And did you relay that 8 information on to Mr. Sturdy? 9 A: I believe I did. 10 Q: Did the topic of evacuation of the 11 cottagers come up in your presence during the course of 12 September the 6th at the briefing? 13 A: I don't recall. 14 Q: Do you recall speaking to your Deputy 15 Minister Ron Vrancart during the morning of September the 16 6th? 17 A: I don't recall. 18 Q: Do you recall having a discussion 19 with him with respect to whether or not the MNR was going 20 to proceed with an injunction? 21 A: I don't recall. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Do you not recall having a


1 conversation with Mr. Vrancart in which he indicated that 2 there was a reluctance to -- to pursue an injunction? 3 A: It's strange but I don't remember 4 speaking to Mr. Vrancart. But if you could refresh my 5 memory, there was so much going on at the time that -- 6 Q: Unfortunately I don't have a document 7 to point you to, Mr. Kobayashi. 8 Do you recall having a discussion with 9 anybody from the MNR in which the person expressed a 10 reluctance to pursue an injunction? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: Do you recall speaking -- 13 communicating such reluctance to Inspector Carson? 14 A: I don't recall that either. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Do you recall whether or not Park 19 staff were officially reassigned duties away from the 20 Park? Because they were clearly doing some work with 21 reference to the Park in the morning. 22 A: Of the 4th? 23 Q: Of the 6th. 24 A: Of the 6th. 25 Q: Because they went down to remove


1 parking tables -- picnic tables. 2 A: Those staff, I think you have to 3 understand that the staff for Pinery and Ipperwash, our 4 headquarters was Pinery but they also worked at Pinery 5 Park -- the Ipperwash staff also worked at Pinery. 6 So they were -- they were reassigned to 7 Pinery. And they were working out of Pinery in the 8 administrative centre, yes. 9 Q: All right. But was there a decision 10 taken to prevent your staff from assisting the OPP in and 11 around Ipperwash Park? 12 A: I don't recall. 13 Q: All right. Did you remain at the -- 14 at the Forest Detachment for the balance of the day? 15 A: I believe I did. 16 Q: If you go to Tab 149, please. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: It's Inquiry document number 1008138, 21 it's an e-mail from Daryl Smith dated September 6th, 22 11:14 a.m. and you're shown to have received a copy of 23 this. 24 Do you believe you received this? 25 A: I'm sure I did.


1 Q: And it -- the subject is: 2 "Hot CKCO footage. It's scheduled for 3 noon today, reporter and cameraman were 4 on scene when natives came towards 5 their vans with baseball bats. OPP on 6 site, drew guns, eyeballing. All of 7 this is on footage. Media centre here 8 only knows this through CKCO TV, saw 9 leader tape." 10 Now do you recall being apprised of -- of 11 this? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: All right, other than receiving the 17 e-mail? 18 A: I don't recall. 19 Q: Did -- do you recall, during the 20 course of the briefings, whether or not there were any 21 questions raised about this footage and the scene that 22 was depicted? 23 A: I don't recall. 24 Q: All right. Did you see any such 25 report on the television?


1 A: No, I don't believe I did. 2 Q: Did you hear about any confrontation 3 in which weapons were drawn by the police and -- and 4 weapons of some sort brandished by the occupiers? 5 A: I don't believe I did. 6 Q: All right. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Now, did you leave the command post 11 at any time during the afternoon of September the 6th? 12 A: You're -- you're going to have to 13 refresh my memory. I -- 14 Q: Do you recall taking some time off 15 and getting some sleep in a hotel? 16 A: I do so. 17 Q: And was that in the afternoon? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: Do you know how long you were away? 20 A: I do not. 21 Q: A couple of hours? 22 A: I would assume so, yes. 23 Q: And who substituted for you at the 24 Detachment? 25 A: Ed Vervoort, the compliance


1 specialist. 2 Q: All right. Did you receive any 3 reports from him as to what transpired when you returned 4 to the Detachment? 5 A: I'm sure I did; I don't recollect 6 what, though. 7 Q: Now, did you receive any instructions 8 with respect -- at the end of the day of September the 9 6th with respect to whether your attendance in Court 10 would be required the next day? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I believe so. 15 Q: All right. And in fact were you due 16 to appear in Sarnia Court the next morning? 17 A: On the 7th I believe it was. 18 Q: Was that with respect to the 19 injunction? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: All right. Did you receive any 22 advice during the course of the 6th that Chief 23 Superintendent Coles wished to speak with you and Mr. 24 Sturdy? 25 A: At some point he did ask. I'm not


1 sure if it was the 6th or not, to be honest with you. 2 Q: All right. And who did you receive 3 that message from? 4 A: I don't recall. 5 Q: Was it someone from the OPP? 6 A: I would assume. 7 Q: And did they tell you what it was -- 8 why it was that the superintendent -- Chief 9 Superintendent wanted to speak with you and Mr. Sturdy? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: Was it something about information 12 flow? 13 A: I don't recall. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Is it likely that you told Mr. Sturdy 18 that -- that this meeting was required or requested? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. Now did you go home that 21 evening? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Do you recall what time 24 you went home? 25 A: It was later on in the evening,


1 probably 8:30, nine o'clock. 2 Q: All right. And what was your 3 impression of the state of affairs at the detachment when 4 you left? 5 A: Fine, as usual. You know. 6 Q: Did you have any sense that things 7 were escalating to the point that some more aggressive 8 action by the OPP might be warranted? 9 A: I did not. 10 Q: You did not? 11 A: I did not, no. 12 Q: Do you have any information or 13 knowledge to the effect that the OPP were contemplating 14 deploying their crowd management unit that evening? 15 A: No, not -- not at that time, no. 16 Q: Based on what you learned and 17 observed at the detachment and through Peter Sturdy -- 18 your conversations with Peter Sturdy did you have any 19 reason to suspect that there had been any alteration to 20 the plan of obtaining an injunction? 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. If you'd had any reason 23 to believe that there was going to be a change in plan 24 was it likely that you would have left the detachment? 25 A: A change in the plans in regards to


1 the injunction? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Yes. By then I was -- I was really 4 tired and -- 5 Q: You were -- 6 A: -- I was exhausted. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Yes, I would have had to have gotten 9 some sleep sometime. 10 Q: All right. What's the next thing 11 heard or when's the next time you heard anything about 12 the Park? 13 A: I got a call from Sergeant Graham 14 that there had been an incident at the Park and he was 15 looking for the 911 number to be able to dispatch 16 ambulances. 17 Q: And was this by way of telephone 18 call? 19 A: Yes, it was. 20 Q: If you go to Tab 154... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And this appears to be a transcript 25 of a telephone conversation between yourself and Sergeant


1 -- is it Sergeant -- Sergeant Graham? 2 A: I believe it was. 3 Q: And if you just read it for a moment 4 and then tell me whether or not this accords with your 5 recollection of that conversation? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: That appears to be correct. 10 Q: All right. And according to this 11 transcript it occurred at 23:13 September 6th. Is that 12 about the time you recall receiving the call? 13 A: It -- it does, yes. 14 Q: All right. And on page 2 there's a 15 reference to the following: 16 "[You -- you say] Yeah, what kind of an 17 altercation do you have? 18 Graham: Well, we've had gunfire and 19 everything else. 20 Kobayashi: Is that right? 21 Graham: Blowing up tonight. Okay, 22 there's going to be somebody at the 23 main gate." 24 And do you recall that part of the 25 exchange?


1 A: I do. 2 Q: And what was your reaction when you 3 heard this? 4 A: Shocked. 5 Q: And why was there shock? 6 A: Because when I left I didn't feel 7 that -- I -- I felt things were escalating, but not being 8 accustomed to violent situations that yes, I was shocked. 9 Q: All right. Make this the next 10 exhibit, please? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-883, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-883: Document number 2000603. 14 Transcribed audio conversation between 15 L. Kobayashi and Rob Graham. 23:13 16 hours., Sept. 06/'95. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: What did you do after receiving this 20 telephone call? 21 A: I went back to the command post, 22 headed back through Forest and down to Forest. 23 Q: All right. And approximately what 24 time did you arrive back at the command post? This call 25 took place at about 23:13.


1 A: Probably about -- 23:13 -- probably 2 about 12:30, one o'clock, in there some place. 3 Q: Okay. And did you receive any 4 further information about what had happened at the Park? 5 A: At that time I -- I did, yes. 6 Q: And -- and who told you? 7 A: I don't recall who told me at the 8 time. 9 Q: All right. Was it an OPP officer? 10 A: It would have been an OPP officer, 11 yes. 12 Q: And what were you informed about the 13 circumstances that gave rise to this incident? 14 A: I just understood that there were -- 15 there was a confrontation outside of the Park in the 16 parking lot adjacent to the Park at the end of Army Camp 17 Road and that there was a -- a fight and a shooting. 18 Shots had been fired and so forth. 19 I didn't really get into the detail right 20 at that particular point in time, it was a wee bit later 21 I believe. When I first arrived, everything was -- 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: -- a lot of the OPP were not saying a 24 great deal because of the -- I believe the team that was 25 involved in the incident were in the -- at the command


1 post, not inside the command post, per say, but the Force 2 Detachment. They were in the garage when I came in. 3 Q: All right. And at that time did you 4 learn whether or not anyone had been wounded? 5 A: I did 6 Q: What did you learn? 7 A: I don't recollect the details but I 8 do recollect that somebody had been shot and that there 9 was perhaps a death. 10 Q: Perhaps a death? 11 A: Yeah. At that time, when I initially 12 arrived, they weren't -- no one was saying very much at 13 that particular point in time, obviously, because of the 14 severity of the issue. 15 Q: All right. And what was your role, 16 then, at the command post at this time? 17 A: My role, really -- I -- I believe I 18 must have gotten in touch with Mr. Sturdy and moved the 19 information forward. But I also contacted my staff. I 20 was really concerned about the staff that lived in the 21 local area adjacent to the Park and in Ipperwash proper. 22 I believe I -- I -- when I was talking to 23 Zone Manager Sturdy I said that I was moving everybody 24 out. I was moving -- going to ask and request that they 25 move out and that there perhaps would be motel bills and


1 so forth. And he said make the calls right away and -- 2 which I did. 3 And staff moved up to the meeting centre 4 at Pinery. 5 Q: Okay. And how about your family? 6 A: My family. Up until that point in 7 time I -- I had actually had a couple of calls at home 8 that were -- people would just call, blank, nobody there, 9 then they'd hang up the phone. My -- and, in actual 10 fact, my wife was away at the time. My young son was at 11 home alone, he'd pick up the phone, nobody there. 12 When I came home on the night of the 6th, 13 actually, he had mentioned that and that he was pretty -- 14 pretty concerned because of the -- the situation and when 15 he told me he was sleeping with his baseball bat when I 16 came in the night of the 6th I -- I became very, very 17 concerned. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: And I believe I mentioned that to the 20 OPP at the command post that night and they actually had 21 a -- a vehicle in the driveway, I believe, that night. 22 And from time to time thereafter, for a bit, they would 23 make frequent patrols by and just ensure everything was 24 okay. 25 Q: Hmm hmm. Now, did you -- were you


1 part of any OPP briefing in which you learned more about 2 the circumstances giving rise to the incident that 3 evening? 4 A: I believe I was. 5 Q: And did that happen in the early 6 hours of that -- of the 7th? 7 A: Correct, yes. 8 Q: All right. And who was in attendance 9 at this briefing? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: Was Inspector Carson there? 12 A: Actually I don't recall who was in 13 charge at the time. 14 Q: All right. Was it an OPP officer? 15 A: Oh, of course. Yes. 16 Q: And what did you learn at that 17 briefing about the -- the incident? 18 A: Just in general terms, I don't 19 remember the details, unless you can refresh my memory, 20 but I just believed there was a -- a shooting and that a 21 person had passed away. 22 Q: It was confirmed at that point? 23 A: Some time that morning, yes. Some 24 time in the morning. It may have been later as well. It 25 just -- and actual fact with myself is just a big blur in


1 respect to timing and that type of thing. 2 I was really exhausted by then and I knew 3 that I had to go to court in Sarnia the night -- on that 4 particular day of the 7th. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: And I'm not sure if Ed Vervoort 7 wasn't there for -- for most -- most of this. 8 Q: Did you receive any information from 9 the police in this time frame concerning what gave rise 10 to the gunfire? 11 A: All I understood, there was a fight, 12 there was an exchange of gunfire, I believe, was -- was 13 what I understood at the time. Whether that to be 14 correct, I don't know. But that's, I believe, what I 15 understood. 16 Q: All right. Did you come to learn who 17 had been killed? 18 A: Eventually yes. 19 Q: And who was that? 20 A: It was Dudley George. 21 Q: Did you -- had you known Mr. George? 22 A: I had seen him from time to time. I 23 don't believe I ever met him personally, but he -- I do 24 recall seeing him from time to time. Adjacent to the 25 Park, at one point in time, I believe he had a -- a hot


1 dog sausage-type cart set up selling -- or a sign there 2 with selling venison sausages or something of that 3 nature. 4 And I've had him pointed out to me before, 5 but I didn't know him personally. 6 Q: All right. And what was your 7 reaction when you learned of the fatality? 8 A: Shocked. 9 Q: Did you learn about any other persons 10 having been wounded in this exchange? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you know who? 13 A: Off the top, unless you refresh my 14 memory, I didn't know them personally, no. 15 Q: All right. Did you end up going to 16 the Sarnia Court on the morning of the September the 7th? 17 A: I did. 18 Q: Did you attend with anyone? 19 A: Sergeant Wright. 20 Q: Okay. Did you take the stand that 21 morning? 22 A: I did not. 23 Q: Okay. To your knowledge, did 24 Sergeant Wright? 25 A: I don't believe he did as well.


1 Q: And had you sworn an affidavit for 2 the Court by this time? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Do you recall if there was anyone at 5 the Court on behalf of the First Nation respondents? 6 A: I don't recall to be honest with you. 7 I actually fell asleep part way through the -- the Court 8 proceedings. 9 Q: All right. Do you have any 10 recollection as to the outcome of those Court proceedings 11 on -- on the September the 7th? 12 A: I understood that the Court 13 injunction had not gone through. I did not -- I -- to 14 this date, I haven't seen the -- an actual Order that, 15 you know, resulted from that. 16 I just knew at that time that it had not 17 been accepted. 18 Q: All right. And where did you go 19 after the Sarnia Court? 20 A: I believe back to the command post. 21 Q: All right. And what was transpiring 22 at the command post when you returned on the 7th? 23 A: To be honest with you, I -- I don't 24 recall. 25 Q: All right. Do you recall what your


1 role was there? 2 A: I believe Ed Vervoort was sitting in 3 on the briefings and so forth at that particular point in 4 time. At that time, I was totally exhausted, I guess. 5 Q: How long did you stay at the command 6 post that day? 7 A: I don't recall. 8 Q: Were any precautionary measures taken 9 in relation to the Pinery Park as a result of the 10 incident at Ipperwash Park? 11 A: I believe we -- Ed Vervoort arranged 12 to have conservation officers and they bumped up security 13 on the main gate of the Park with conservation officers 14 versus Park wardens. 15 Once again, we were very, very concerned 16 about our Park wardens being involved in any -- any 17 violent situations at all, or confrontations. 18 And the -- our -- and the training of the 19 conservation officers is much greater than what we would 20 provide our temporary or -- our temporary staff Park 21 wardens, so they actually manned the gate. 22 Q: Now, these are the -- the officers -- 23 the MNR employees who are -- who are armed -- 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: -- with firearms?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And what gave rise to the concern 3 that there might be violence at Pinery? 4 A: At some point, along the way, the -- 5 there was an indication that Pinery may be next to be 6 occupied, and obviously, with the dramatic incident at 7 Ipperwash at that particular point in time, that we were 8 very concerned. 9 And we -- you have to remember, too, that 10 we were still operating. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: We had a lot of visitors in the Park 13 and we had a lot of staff as well, a lot of resources and 14 so forth. 15 So we were very -- and we were -- we were 16 erring on the side of caution, I guess, in respect to 17 Pinery. 18 Q: And was there a decision, ultimately, 19 to close Pinery Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And do you recall what time -- 22 approximately when that decision was taken? 23 A: I do not. 24 Q: If you go to Tab 158, Inquiry 25 document 1009242. E-mail dated September 7th, 1995 at


1 2:58 a.m. from Peter Sturdy to Peter Allen, and you're 2 shown as having received a copy. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Is it likely that you received that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And does this refresh your memory at 7 all as to when the park was closed? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: When -- 10 A: Well, not really, I'd have to refresh 11 my memory, exact dates and times. 12 Q: All right. It indicates in the last 13 paragraph: 14 "We have called in four (4) COs to be 15 located at the Park and will not be 16 allowing any traffic into Pinery, 17 pending a decision on the closure. I 18 anticipate making that call prior to 19 9:00 a.m." 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: To your knowledge, was that -- 22 A: That -- that -- that -- 23 Q: -- decision made later the day -- in 24 that day? 25 A: I believe it was.


1 Q: Make this the next exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-884, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-884: Document number 1009242. 5 E-mail from P. Sturdy to 6 Peter Allen cc. L. Kobayashi 7 Re: "Urgent: Closure of 8 Pinery Prov. Park, Sept. 9 07/'95. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: And did you issue the official Notice 13 of Closure? 14 A: I believe I did. 15 Q: Look at Tab 159, Inquiry Document 16 Number 1008084, Notice To All Park Visitors. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Is that the Notice of Closure of 19 Pinery Park, issued by you? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: Make that the next exhibit, please. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-885, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-885: Document number 1008084. 25 Notice to all Park Vistors-


1 L. Kobayashi, Sept. 07/'95. 2 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I 4 wonder if we might take the morning break at this time? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This would 6 be a good time for it. Thank you very much. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We will take 9 the morning break now. 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 11 for fifteen (15) minutes. 12 13 --- Upon recessing at 10:28 a.m. 14 --- Upon resuming at 10:47 a.m. 15 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 17 resumed. Please be seated. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Mr. Kobayashi, I don't like to go 21 backwards in time but perhaps you'll bear with me. 22 The morning of September the 6th I asked 23 whether or not you had had a telephone conversation with 24 your Deputy Minister Ron Vrancart and you indicated that 25 you could not recall.


1 I'm going to refer you to Exhibit P-426. 2 It's Inquiry Document Number 1002419 and I'm going to put 3 this on the screen so that you'll have an opportunity to 4 review this. It's the scribe notes from the OPP with 5 respect to September the 6th events at the command post. 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: Now at 8:27 a.m., September the 6th 8 the following is recorded in the scribe notes. 9 "Les Kobayashi states: Deputy Minister 10 called. We not going for an 11 injunction. Basically we are -- they 12 want him to retract that position and I 13 just told Daryl to hang tight and check 14 with Pete. 15 John Carson: We are pursuing that 16 option until some court gives us a 17 stamp. We haven't got it." 18 Now does that refresh your recollection at 19 all as to whether or not you had a conversation with Ron 20 Vrancart? 21 A: I still don't recall speaking with 22 Deputy Minister Vrancart. But perhaps I -- I got that 23 information from Mr. Sturdy as well, that it may have 24 referred to Mr. Sturdy receiving the call, then Mr. 25 Sturdy speaking with myself and then me -- myself


1 relaying the information on. 2 But I -- I don't -- I simply just don't 3 recall. I just don't recall. 4 Q: All right. Well do you recall now 5 that the MNR retracted its position in the early hours -- 6 or in the morning hours of September the 6th with respect 7 to going to an injunction and that you relayed that to 8 Inspector Carson? 9 A: I don't recollect that I did. If it 10 says it does there, but it doesn't refresh my memory. I 11 don't recall it period. 12 Q: All right. Thank you. And you 13 testified earlier that there was -- let me ask you this. 14 Did you have any sleep during the evening of September 15 6th? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. And you went straight to 18 the Sarnia court without having gone to bed? 19 A: That is correct. 20 Q: All right. And you returned back to 21 the command post for some time without any sleep? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: Did you -- did you go home that 24 night? 25 A: I don't recall.


1 Q: Okay. Do you recall having a meeting 2 with Chief Superintendent Coles and Peter Sturdy on the - 3 - the 7th or 8th of September? 4 A: It was around that time that we had a 5 meeting. I believe it was in Grand Bend. 6 Q: At the Grand Bend OPP Detachment? 7 A: That is correct. 8 Q: All right. And it was at his request 9 that you attended? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And what were you -- what were you 12 told by Chief Superintendent Coles? 13 A: Basically that -- to be very -- very 14 cautious in respect to the type of information that we 15 were moving forward through the chain of command. I 16 believe at that time there was a couple of items that 17 really re -- required defining as intelligence versus 18 actual. 19 And that's basic -- it was just a -- it 20 was a caution. Yes. And that -- that was my 21 understanding of the purpose of the meeting. 22 Q: So the caution with respect to the 23 dissemination of information that you received from the 24 command post? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: And did you take it as a -- that 2 comment or that -- the comment as a criticism as to the 3 information you had previously disseminated from the 4 command post? 5 A: I would say, yes, there was a couple 6 of points that he was concerned about. 7 Q: And do you recall any particular 8 facts that he expressed concern that you had relayed on 9 to Mr. Sturdy? 10 A: Not in particular I don't recall 11 that. 12 Q: All right. Did you think it a fair 13 criticism of your conduct, given what you were told? 14 A: Up until that point in time, I would 15 say that I had never been clearly -- it had never really 16 been clearly defined what I should move forward and what 17 I shouldn't move forward. 18 There was no distinction in my case 19 whether it was intelligence or operational fact or 20 whatever. My job in the command post really was to move 21 forward anything noteworthy to Mr. Sturdy and then he 22 could decipher exactly what should move forward from 23 there, as I would have. Because I certainly didn't 24 report on everything that transpired at the command post. 25 I believe I just highlighted what I


1 thought were important -- was important information, and 2 I believe Mr. Sturdy then relayed that on to wherever he 3 was going to relay it to. 4 Q: All right. Do you consider that to 5 be a lesson learned from this event? 6 A: I would say yes. Once I was 7 cautioned know the pattern of information that we moved 8 forward was -- was qualified, I guess, whether it was 9 intelligence or whether it was factual or non-factual or 10 whatever, yes. 11 Q: Up until this point in time, did you 12 actually have an understanding as to the distinction 13 between intelligence and unverified fact? 14 A: No, I didn't have an understanding. 15 Q: Did you continue to have contact with 16 the OPP in the days and months following the events of 17 September the 6th in relation to the Ipperwash Park 18 situation? 19 A: I did. 20 Q: And what was the nature of that 21 contact? 22 A: Just general updates. Basically 23 there was a couple of occasions when Chief Superintendent 24 Coles, Superintendent Parkins and myself would meet to 25 try to negotiate a -- a return of the Park or


1 resettlement of -- of Ipperwash Park. 2 Q: All right, and when you say "meet", 3 meet with whom? 4 A: Members of the Stoney Point people. 5 I believe also there was councillors from Kettle Point 6 and Stoney Point as well at these meetings. 7 Q: All right. And were you informed as 8 to how the OPP intended to handle the situation in the 9 immediate aftermath of the shooting? 10 A: I don't believe so. 11 Q: Did you observe any de-escalation of 12 the situation, or efforts to de -- de-escalate the 13 situation by the police? 14 A: Oh, yes. It was -- once the 15 memorandum of understanding from DND occurred from the 16 Federal Government, then there was certainly a -- a de- 17 escalation of Provincial police participation in the 18 event and I believe the -- the -- a lot of the officers 19 were sent home and so forth. 20 Q: All right, so did the de-escalation 21 involve or entail the withdrawal, if you will, or the 22 gradual withdrawal of a police presence? 23 A: Correct. 24 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: All right, and would you kindly go to 4 Tab 164, which has been made Exhibit P-795, Inquiry 5 document number 1010149. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And this appears to be a report from 8 you to Peter Sturdy dated September 14, 1995 in relation 9 to an OPP briefing? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: That you attended at? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And do you recall, was that on the 14 14th, that -- 15 A: I don't recall exactly what -- what 16 date it was. 17 Q: Okay. But in or around this time? 18 A: Yes, that's correct. 19 Q: And you met with Chief Superintendent 20 Coles? 21 A: That is correct. 22 Q: All right. And Superintendent 23 Baranoski? 24 A: That is correct. 25 Q: He was now the incident commander?


1 A: That is correct. 2 Q: And this outlines the steps with 3 respect to the de-escalation process, is that fair? 4 A: That is correct. 5 Q: That there be no more checkpoints; 6 that the number of TRU team to be reduced from three (3) 7 to one (1), the number of ERT teams reduced from seven 8 (7) to two (2), the return of the helicopter to the MNR 9 and canine units and that he emphasized de-escalation and 10 the -- the healing process to be started? 11 A: That is correct. 12 Q: All right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: All right. Now, did you -- you 17 indicated that you -- you had played a role with respect 18 to ongoing negotiations with representatives of the 19 Stoney Point Group in relation to the possible return of 20 the Park? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And also was it in relation to 23 actions that needed to be taken in -- with respect to the 24 Park? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Such as...? 2 A: Winterization of the water lines and 3 buildings. 4 Q: All right. And was there also an 5 effort on your part to ascertain an assessment of the 6 property damage? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: What was the purpose of that? 9 A: Well, just to determine how much 10 damage there had been to our assets. We had quite a 11 number of buildings there's -- there and a lot of dollar 12 values associated with those assets. 13 Q: All right. And did you receive -- 14 well, why don't we go to Tab 168 Inquiry Document 15 1009006, e-mail dated September 18, 1995, from Rob 16 Burnett to Peter Sturdy? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And is it likely that you received a 19 copy of this? 20 A: That is correct. 21 Q: And does that represent your 22 assessment of the extent of and assessment of the 23 property damage? 24 A: Yes. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I understand that this is an exhibit. 4 I'm sorry, I don't have the exhibit number with me, but 5 you should be able to identify that. 6 Now, did you have any understanding that 7 one (1) of the reasons for the assessment of the property 8 damage was because there was a sense, an indication -- 9 indication that the Stoney Point Group might compensate 10 the MNR for it? 11 A: That's correct. I understood that at 12 some point in time I believe in one (1) of our 13 negotiation sessions that I believe it was Bruce Elijah 14 had indicated that we -- you know we would be compensated 15 for damage. 16 Q: And did -- and would that -- did you 17 have any sense as to where the funds would -- would come 18 from -- 19 A: I had no idea that -- 20 Q: -- with respect to any compensation 21 agreement? 22 A: To be honest with you, I don't 23 recollect. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Or -- or have a sense.


1 Q: All right. Just for the record that 2 e-mail dated September 18, 1995 is Exhibit P-796 and I'm 3 grateful to Mr. Downard for that. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 5 796? 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: All right. Would you next go to Tab 10 188, please? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: An e-mail dated November 14, 1995, 15 Inquiry Document 1008812. This is an e-mail you provided 16 to Peter Sturdy? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And does it reflect your 19 participation and negotiations with the OPP and members 20 of the Stoney Point Group? 21 A: I believe so. 22 Q: Apparently these took place on 23 November the 10th of '95? 24 A: I believe so. 25 Q: And based on -- on this report is it


1 fair that there was discussions with respect to 2 winterization being done? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And how that would happen? 5 A: I believe so, yes. 6 Q: Were you advised partway down by Tony 7 Parkins that the OPP position was that the issue was now 8 a Federal and Provincial MNR issue, as the illegal 9 occupation was now over? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: What did you think about that? 12 A: I didn't believe it was over, because 13 we weren't occupying the Park ourselves or taking back 14 the Park or operating it. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: If I can make this the 16 next exhibit please. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-886, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-886: Document number 1008812. 20 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to P. Sturdy 21 Re: "Ipperwash Issue, Nov. 14/95 22 Update" 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: Go next to Tab 192 please, e-mail


1 dated November 24, 1995, from yourself to Peter Sturdy, 2 Inquiry Document number 1008977, do you recall there 3 being a meeting at the Kettle Point/Stony Point Police 4 Station on November 24th, 1995, with Les Jewel, Layton 5 Elijah, Detective Sergeant Speck, and yourself? 6 A: I do recall. 7 Q: And again, was the purpose of this 8 meeting to discuss the eventuality and process of 9 winterization of the Park? 10 A: That is correct. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: If I can make this the 12 next exhibit please? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-887, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-887: Document number 1008977. 16 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to 17 P. Sturdy Re: Ipperwash 18 Issue- Meeting Nov. 24/'95. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: Go next to Tab 194, Inquiry Document 22 1008816, e-mail to Peter Sturdy from yourself dated 23 November 27th, 1995, and this also appears to reflect a 24 meeting that occurred later in the afternoon of November 25 the 24th, with Officer Speck, yourself and Les Jewel,


1 representing Stony Point; is that right? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And was the purpose of this to advise 4 them that -- the Stony Pointers that -- that MNR would 5 winterize the Park, but did not accept the other 6 conditions that had been requested in the prior e-mail? 7 A: I believe so, yes. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Make this the next 9 exhibit please? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-888, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-888: Document number 1008816. 13 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to 14 P. Sturdy Re: Ipperwash 15 Issue-Meeting Nov. 24/'95, 16 3:00 p.m., Nov. 27/'95. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: Next go to Tab 197 please, Inquiry 20 Document 1009204, e-mail from yourself to Peter Sturdy 21 dated December 4th, 1995. Did you attend at a meeting at 22 the Kettle and Stony Point Police Station on December the 23 2nd, with respect to the winterization process? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And this time in attendance were


1 Chief Superintendent Coles, Superintendent Parkin, 2 Sergeant Hudson, Chief Miles Bressette from the Kettle 3 and Stony Point Police, Bruce Elijah as a negotiator and 4 peacekeeper on behalf of Stony Point, Layton Elijah, Les 5 Jewel, and yourself? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And were you advised at that time 8 then that the -- that both sides had reached an agreement 9 with respect to winterization, with the exception of the 10 maintenance building, which the occupiers intended to use 11 throughout the winter? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And was this something that you had 14 to get approval from your superiors on, namely that you 15 would not winterize the maintenance building? 16 A: That is correct. 17 Q: And did you? 18 A: I believe I did, yes. 19 Q: All right. And according to this, 20 the winterization was to occur on December the 3rd? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And I note that on page 2, the second 23 last paragraph, Bruce Elijah is attributed with directing 24 Layton Elijah to give -- to have you submit a listing and 25 costing of all damage that had been incurred to date,


1 i.e. burnt concession, stolen tables, et cetera, he would 2 submit the bill to Stony Pointers for reimbursement, once 3 they are compensated by the Federal Government? 4 A: That is correct. 5 Q: You recall that now? 6 A: I do so. 7 Q: All right. And also your -- by this 8 time had you been able to get into the Park? 9 A: No. 10 Q: There's an assessment at the bottom 11 of this and you're saying to Peter Sturdy, that generally 12 the Park is a mess, but it's not as bad as it could have 13 been. What was the basis of your information then? 14 A: I think at that time I did actually 15 go have a walk through around the -- the Park store that 16 had been burnt, and just generally through -- generally - 17 - generally through. And I'm really not sure how far I 18 went -- I can't -- I can hardly remember. 19 Q: Well, and in fairness, Mr. Kobayashi, 20 and noting this is dated December the 4th, the 21 winterization of the Park occurred on December the 3rd; 22 correct? 23 A: Correct, yes. 24 Q: And were you present? 25 A: December 3rd, yes.


1 Q: At the winterization? 2 A: Yes, I was. 3 Q: And that's when you would have made 4 this assessment. 5 A: Exactly, yes. 6 Q: Make this the next exhibit, please. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-889, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-889: Document number 1009204. 10 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to P. Sturdy 11 Re: "Ipperwash Meeting Dec. 02/'95", 12 Dec. 04/'95 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: And if you turn back to Tab 196, 16 Inquiry document 1007213. It's a report entitle -- 17 entitled, "Water line facility inspection and shut down," 18 dated December 3rd, 1995 and this was prepared by Rob 19 Burnett. 20 A: That is correct. 21 Q: And are you familiar with this 22 document? 23 A: I am. 24 Q: And did it accurately set out the 25 condition of the various store and facilities?


1 A: It did. 2 Q: Make this the next exhibit. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-890, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-890: Document number 1007213. 6 "Ipperwash Prov. Park - 7 Waterline/Facility Inspection and 8 Shutdown - Dec. 03/'95" 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: All right. Now do you also recall 12 having a meeting with councillors from the town of 13 Bosanquet at -- on or about January the 4th or '96? 14 A: I don't recall, but you can refresh 15 my memory. I believe I did. 16 Q: All right. If you go to Tab 201, 17 please. E-mail dated January 4th, 1996, Inquiry document 18 1009201. 19 This is a report from yourself to Mr. 20 Sturdy about a meeting with two (2) councillors? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And does this refresh your memory as 23 to whether that occurred? 24 A: It did occur, yes. 25 Q: And what was the purpose of this


1 meeting? 2 A: They were expressing concerns about 3 the Park being -- the Park signage was still up and it 4 just says Park closed, and the logistics that people 5 would think that it was still an Ontario Provincial Park 6 and still would have access to the day use facilities and 7 so forth, as any Park would. 8 You could still walk in and walk through 9 the Park and so forth, and I believe they were expressing 10 concerns at that time about that. 11 Q: Well, at this point in time, in early 12 1996, what was the Ministry's position with respect to 13 whether or not the Park would be opened in the next 14 spring? 15 A: I believe at that time we were still 16 hoping that the -- we would once again take possession of 17 the Park and be able to continue operation of it. 18 Q: Did that position change at some 19 point? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I believe it did change at some 24 point, yes. 25 Q: Okay. And what -- what was the final


1 -- what was the position? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: Do you recall -- well, was there a 4 decision made not to re-open the Park in the spring? 5 A: Yes, because we didn't have 6 possession of it. 7 Q: Okay. And has the Park been re- 8 opened under your jurisdiction? 9 A: It has not or had not. 10 Q: All right. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, you indicated that you were 15 present at the Park during the winterization process, 16 December the 3rd, 1995? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And were you also familiar, through 19 your meetings, with an individual by the name of Layton 20 Elijah? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And do you recall what position he 23 held in and around that time? 24 A: He was the -- I use the term 25 "peacekeeper." He was a peacekeeper that was responsible


1 to ensure that the safety of our -- of our staff when 2 they were closing up the Park. He was to be on site at 3 all the -- at all times. 4 Q: All right. And do you recall or not 5 he was on site during the course of the winterization of 6 the Park on December 3rd? 7 A: He was there. 8 Q: All right. Now, we've heard some 9 evidence from Layton Elijah with respect to a 10 conversation that he alleged to have had with you on 11 December the 3rd, 1995 and, Mr. Registrar, I wonder if we 12 could hand this up to Mr. Kobayashi. 13 And, Commissioner, I believe you have a 14 copy of this. I'm going to read an extract from the 15 examination of Layton Elijah at this Inquiry held on 16 April the 5th, 2005. I'm reading from line 8, page 186 17 to -- to line 21, page 187: 18 "Q: Now, Mr. Elijah -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You are about to advise us with 21 respect to a particular conversation 22 you say that you had on December the 23 3rd, 1995 involving Mr. Les Kobayashi. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: I wonder if you would now tell the


1 Commission what transpired during the 2 course of that conversation? 3 A: The day started out about 9:30 in 4 the morning. That was the day of the 5 walk through in the Park. And all the 6 workers from the Ministry of Natural 7 Resources all were doing their thing. 8 The OPP were taping, watching the MNR 9 and one of the guys from the camp was 10 watching over all. And me and Les 11 Kobayashi were at the back and he said, 12 We're not needed here, let's go for -- 13 let's go for a ride. I said, Sure. 14 He said, I'll show you our other Park, 15 meaning the Pinery Park. 16 So I jumped in and we went for a ride 17 over there and he showed me that all 18 was Indian land and was bought off the 19 Natives and where the river went 20 through it and separated the two (2) 21 lands. 22 That one side of that river was still 23 Indian land and the other side was 24 sold. And then we were just talking 25 and all of a sudden I said, excuse the


1 language, I said, Do you think it was - 2 - think it was that fucking Potts that 3 gave the order to kill Dudley? 4 And he goes, No, I know for a fact -- I 5 know for a fact it wasn't Jim Potts. 6 He said it was Mike Harris. I know. 7 My boss was there at the meeting. 8 And I says, Are you sure? And he says, 9 Yes, I'm positive. And I go, Wow. 10 Q: And did anything else or was 11 anything else said during the course of 12 this conversation? 13 A: Yeah. He just said that you won't 14 hear him say that, never again, meaning 15 Mike Harris. 16 Q: Now you said this occurred on a -- 17 on a car -- was it a car ride? 18 A: Yes." 19 First, who was your direct boss at the 20 time of the Ipperwash crisis? 21 A: Peter Sturdy. 22 Q: And do you recall getting into a car 23 with Layton Elijah on December the 3rd and going over to 24 Pinery Park? 25 A: That did not happen.


1 Q: Did you tell Layton Elijah that your 2 boss told you that Mike Harris had given the order to 3 kill Dudley George or words to that affect? 4 A: That did not happen and nor have I 5 ever said or heard that. 6 Q: Do you have any explanation as to why 7 Layton Elijah has that recollection? 8 A: I have no idea. 9 Q: Now, did it come to your attention 10 that an MNR employee at the Pinery Park made an 11 allegation of racism in relation to the Ipperwash Park 12 crisis matter? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: How did this matter come to your 15 attention? 16 A: I believe it was Stan Cloud brought 17 the in -- brought the complaint to myself. 18 Q: All right. And what -- was it in the 19 form of a verbal complaint or written? 20 A: It was a verbal complaint. 21 Q: All right. And who was Stan Cloud? 22 A: Stan Cloud was a First Nations person 23 that was a park warden. He started out on -- I believe 24 as a gate attendant, security officer and moved his way 25 up to a park warden/park technician working at Pinery.


1 And perhaps Ipperwash from time to time as well. 2 Q: To your knowledge -- do you know what 3 Band he was from? 4 A: At that -- Kettle Point Stony Point. 5 But I believe his family were Stoney Pointers. 6 Q: And what did Mr. Cloud tell you? 7 A: He had seen some items in the meeting 8 centre that were -- that he felt were prejudicial. That 9 the work centre was -- the meeting centre was a poisoned 10 workplace. 11 Q: All right. And did he tell you what 12 those items were? 13 A: I don't recall if he told me to -- at 14 that time exactly what -- what it was, what this -- the 15 items were. 16 Q: All right. And did he tell you how 17 he came across these items? 18 A: Yes, he was over at the meeting 19 centre and saw them. 20 Q: So they were out visibly? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And what -- what did you 23 -- what was your response to his concern? 24 A: I was actually very distraught about 25 it to be honest with you. We had gone to great lengths


1 over the -- my time period, at any rate, probably before, 2 to ensure that there was no discrimination or prejudices 3 shown in our workplace because over the years we've had 4 quite a number of aboriginal people and people of other 5 nationalities like myself being in -- that worked in -- 6 in our environment and we've had, you know -- of course 7 it was government policy and -- to -- to have an open and 8 free workplace free of any -- anything of prejudicial 9 nature. 10 And I thought we had done an excellent job 11 of it. Our staff -- we've had -- all of our staff had 12 training in respect to this. We would put on orientation 13 workshops at the beginning of every season for the number 14 of temporary staff or students that would come into the 15 workplace. We all sat together around the kitchen table 16 or the meeting centre table. I'd never for the most part 17 had heard nothing of -- of that nature. I was very 18 disappointed. 19 Q: At that time did Mr. Cloud mention 20 anything with respect to how he had been treated by 21 others during the course of the Ipperwash incident? 22 A: I don't recollect for -- for certain, 23 I just felt that that was a very serious matter and I 24 believe I took it forward to the OPP. 25 Q: All right. I was going to ask you


1 and -- and how did you take it forward to the OPP? 2 A: I believe I spoke with the incident 3 commander at the time, but I did take it to -- to Forest 4 actually and -- and meet with the OPP, and I'm not sure 5 if it was just in relation to this, but there was -- it 6 was brought up there. 7 Q: Okay. And why did you raise this to 8 the attention of the OPP? 9 A: The meeting centre was a location in 10 the Park that we housed some of the TRU and ERT team 11 personnel as well as some of the displaced families from 12 the Ipperwash area. So not knowing and being very 13 surprised -- not knowing who generated the prejudicial 14 items that I really felt that the OPP should -- should be 15 involved with it and take the lead with it. 16 Q: Did you actually see these items? 17 A: To be honest with you I -- I can't 18 recollect if I did or not. 19 Q: Do you recall that they consisted of, 20 in part, T-shirts and mugs? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Cartoons? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And were there two (2) cartoons? 25 A: I don't recall if there was two (2)


1 cartoons or not, to be honest with you. 2 Q: Do you recall what the subject matter 3 of those cartoons was? 4 A: I do not. 5 Q: Or if they were -- were they hand- 6 drawn or they reproduced from a printed media? 7 A: I do not. 8 Q: Was there also a picture of an OPP 9 cruiser depicting a bull's eye and arrow? 10 A: I believe I may have seen that after 11 the fact, not at that -- after the investigation and I 12 believe I saw a mug after the investigation as well, I 13 believe. And it was -- it was some time before I 14 actually saw them. 15 Q: Now, did you not go to the meeting 16 centre at Pinery to have a look at what these items are 17 when Mr. Cloud brought them to your attention? 18 A: Actually, I recall calling Don 19 Matheson, who was my assistant, and he was actually in 20 charge of the meeting centre. I -- I remember calling 21 him from Forest right away and asking him to investigate, 22 take the appropriate action. 23 On our part, although Sergeant Adkin was 24 given the responsibility to -- to actually take the lead 25 investigation on the part of the OPP.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: I guess that I called Don to -- to 3 advise him to -- because he was in charge to -- to 4 investigate himself and see if there was any of our staff 5 involved which I, from our perspective initially -- and - 6 - and I believe to remove the items as well that were in 7 there. 8 Q: All right, and did Mr. Matheson, A) 9 secure the items? 10 A: I don't recollect that he did. I 11 believe that at that time -- I believe he was going to 12 speak with Sergeant Akin at the time, and in reality, 13 myself, I didn't do any of the investigation myself. 14 Q: Did -- did he take -- Mr. Matheson 15 take any independent steps to investigate the possible 16 participation or role of your staff? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: What steps did he take? 19 A: I believe he -- he interviewed the 20 people, and the kitchen staff that were primarily there. 21 I think you have to remember too, that you know, there 22 was -- it was a twenty-four (24) person meeting centre, 23 it had -- had accommodation for twenty-four (24), and we 24 revolved through quite a number of people through, the 25 meals and so forth.


1 And we had a quite a number of kitchen 2 staff that were temporary in nature, that we brought in 3 for -- to deal with feeding as many people as we were 4 feeding. 5 So -- and Don, actually I believe at the 6 time, was living there with his family and his kids, so-- 7 Q: All right. 8 A: -- I believe he was going to follow 9 through with finding out who generated it, if he didn't 10 know already, I don't know. But I believe he -- my 11 instructions to him was to coordinate through Sergeant 12 Akin. 13 Q: Now, what were the results of Don 14 Matheson's investigation? 15 A: My understanding after -- a fair 16 piece after, I believe, was that one (1) of the kitchen 17 staff had generated I believe the cartoons, and had 18 generated perhaps the -- the can with the -- apparently a 19 feather in it. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And Don's report back to me was 22 basically that it had been dealt with. So I just 23 understood that the matter had been looked after. 24 Q: Do you recall what kind of can it was 25 with the feather in it?


1 A: I do not. 2 Q: Do you recall whether there was a 3 hole through the side? 4 A: I don't -- I don't recall. 5 Q: Do you recall what -- what steps, if 6 any, were taken by Mr. Matheson as a result of this 7 finding? 8 A: I believe the direction at that time 9 was to ensure that none of the other facilities had 10 anything of a derogatory nature. We had two (2) other 11 managers, Rob Burnett, the other assistant, and Terry 12 Krieg (phonetic) the visitor services coordinator, that 13 were managers, and they were to ensure that in their own 14 workplaces, because this was a meeting centre, and they 15 all had offices and work -- work locations, that -- to 16 ensure that there wasn't anything else of this nature 17 that was -- that was being posted or transpired or -- and 18 to ensure our workplace was to the standard that we 19 always expected it should be. 20 Q: Okay. Were any steps taken 21 specifically with respect to the employee who was found 22 to have caused these cartoons to be posted? 23 A: I believe at some point I did speak 24 with Stan in regards to the actions on our part, and I 25 believe I -- I am certain I must have apologized for the


1 -- for the matter. 2 And I think he was satisfied from the 3 Ministry's viewpoint that -- that we had taken the 4 appropriate action at the time. And I can't recall 5 exactly when I met with Stan about this. But I -- I do 6 know that it was shortly after that I felt the matter had 7 been resolved, and satisfactorily for Mr. Cloud. 8 Q: Was there any sanction or discipline 9 against the employee who was found to be responsible for 10 the cartoons and the can with the feather? 11 A: To my knowledge, as Don being the 12 supervisor, it was a temporary person that actually 13 generated the -- the cartoons, and having not had any 14 harassment or discriminatory training and so forth, and 15 being only in there for a very, very temporary point in 16 time while this issue was going on, and these people were 17 part-timers as well. 18 They just came in and helped the cook and 19 clean and that type of thing, and would be gone. My 20 understanding it was one (1) of the temporary persons 21 that -- and my recollection, I can't recall who at this 22 particular point in time, I just -- I felt that the issue 23 had been looked after from our viewpoint and that the OPP 24 investigation was continuing on in respect to the rest 25 that wasn't in our involvement.


1 Q: And was she re-hired? 2 A: I don't think she was ever fired, to 3 be quite honest. I believe that while the issue was 4 going on when we were feeding this many people, that she 5 -- she -- she continued to assist in the kitchen. I 6 don't know if she was ever re-hired, per se. 7 Q: All right. So you're not -- 8 A: We've never had anything of that 9 nature occur with that many people and feeding that many 10 people, so... 11 Q: All right. But you're not aware of 12 there being any particular sanctions against this person? 13 A: There wasn't any disci -- I don't 14 believe there was any discipline other than a discussion 15 with that individual by Don. 16 Q: Was that appropriate in your view? 17 A: Under those conditions, and so forth, 18 under the -- that perhaps under normal circumstances in 19 the workplace, there are certain policies and procedures 20 that we would certainly follow to -- to remedy and 21 rectify any discriminatory or prejudicial situations, 22 we'd certainly follow that process right to the nines. 23 In actual fact, I was very proud of the -- 24 the -- our -- our workplace for -- for dealing with 25 harassment or discriminatory or anything of that nature.


1 We had an excellent workplace. The individuals that 2 worked there, we all sat around the coffee table, we got 3 into hockey pools, we -- we treated each other with a 4 great deal of respect, and -- and very sensitive of 5 everybody's concerns. 6 So, the bottom line here, I guess was, was 7 that it was a judgment call on Don's part to say that, 8 hey, it wasn't going to happen again, we took the 9 appropriate steps to remove anything, thirdly, that at 10 some point I -- I met with Stan and apologized; he was a 11 fellow employee and it wasn't right that this occur, but 12 it did occur, and hopefully that we did take the 13 appropriate actions that were -- for this particular 14 situation. 15 Q: All right. And did you provide 16 reports to Peter Sturdy on this? 17 A: I think I just said that the -- the 18 situation had been looked after from the Ministry's 19 viewpoint, -- 20 Q: Would you look at Tab -- 21 A: -- from our viewpoint. 22 Q: -- Tab 184, please, Inquiry Document 23 1010139, it's been made Exhibit P-800, E-mail dated 24 October 25, 1995, from yourself to Peter Sturdy. 25 A: Which document was it? Tab...?


1 Q: Tab 184. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And is this a copy of a -- a report 4 that you provided to Mr. Sturdy on the -- the initiation, 5 or the outset of the investigation? 6 A: That was an update, yes. 7 Q: I'm also going to put a document on 8 the screen for you, since it's not in your -- your tabs. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Registrar, could 13 you put -- hand to the witness, Exhibit P-801, please? 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: This is Inquiry Document Number 17 1010135, and it's also been placed before you, Mr. 18 Kobayashi; is this -- is this a report that you provided 19 to Mr. Sturdy with respect to the outcome of this 20 investigation? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And I note that one of the other 23 complaints brought forward by Mr. Cloud was his feeling 24 that he had been treated improperly by the police during 25 the course of the Ipperwash incident. Do you recall that


1 now? 2 A: Not in detail. 3 Q: All right. Okay. Now, did you have 4 any -- were you advised as to the outcome of the OPP 5 search? 6 A: Yes, I believe there had been already 7 some mugs in circulation, and I believe that they were 8 all retrieved, and my understanding was that the Ontario 9 Provincial Police took the appropriate action, as far as 10 eliminating any discriminatory or derogatory comments or 11 information provided, or items. I believe they -- they 12 took the -- took action. 13 Q: They took action? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay, thank you. Now, did you have 16 any further involvement with respect to the investigation 17 of the claims that there was a burial grounds in the Park 18 over the ensuing months? 19 A: I believe after -- in the ensuing 20 months, I -- I believe that we were scouring everywhere, 21 trying to determine if there was any -- anything. I 22 believe there was a memo that came up at some point from 23 the Federal Government, in respect to that there was a 24 question whether there was burial -- burial grounds, and 25 the -- apparently at some point that letter, or a copy of


1 that letter had been sent to us from Daryl Smith, who had 2 done some research into this. 3 We scoured our files several times, trying 4 to determine if we had ever seen that memo, at the Park 5 level that is. We could not find anything to indicate 6 that that letter had existed at the Park. 7 Now, I think you have to understand too, 8 that there was quite a number of organizational changes 9 with Ipperwash over the course of time. So files were 10 moved and removed and taken to Chatham and taken to 11 Pinery and put in the archives in Pinery, and so forth. 12 So -- so, we -- we checked all over. 13 Daryl Smith actually checked all over as 14 well through his files, because he was working out of 15 Chatham at one (1) point in time. Elmer, everybody was 16 looking for information at that time. 17 And actually, I believe it was Don and I 18 that went to Toronto and went through the archives, and 19 we did a lot of different things to try to determine 20 exactly what the status was. 21 Q: All right, and -- and you -- did you 22 also have a meeting with Marilyn and Bob Dulmage? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And who -- who is Marilyn Dulmage? 25 A: Marilyn Dulmage was the -- one (1) of


1 the Superintendent Arneil's daughter. Superintendent 2 Arneil was the Superintendent of Ipperwash Park in the 3 late '40's and early '50's I believe, and they resided at 4 Ipperwash. 5 It came to light, and I -- I believe it 6 was from Mrs. Donna Stoertson (phonetic), who was the -- 7 I think the President of On-Fire Group (phonetic), that 8 in the local community, it came to -- to light that there 9 was bones that were found at Ipperwash during the 10 Dulmage's -- or the Arneil's term at -- at Ipperwash. 11 So when we received that information, Don 12 Matheson and I proceeded to Cornwall, where the Dulmages 13 lived, and to interview them and to determine the -- the 14 actual -- actuality of -- of the -- of the claim. 15 In doing so, we met with Mr. and Mrs. 16 Dulmage, and she identified the fact, yes, the -- 17 Superintendent Arneil had found bones when they were 18 excavating or constructing the -- to put what they termed 19 as the bathhouse, to construct a bathhouse in the Park, 20 and for some time -- and they actually had taken 21 photographs at the time. 22 I believe she showed us the photographs, 23 would not give them to us, she preferred to pass them on 24 -- and I advised her to do so as well, if she wanted to 25 pass them on to the OPP or Donna Stoertson who would then


1 pass them to the OPP, directly. 2 As a matter of fact, Mr. Dulmage was a 3 radio operator, dispatcher for the OPP out of, I believe 4 it was Long Sioux and they felt more -- I could -- we 5 sensed at the time they felt more comfortable in passing 6 them along through those channels. 7 All right, I believe we did see them and 8 from there, that was about it, really, the -- that was 9 really about it. 10 Q: And do you know where the site of the 11 bathhouse was in the Park? 12 A: I recall it in the -- I don't recall 13 it directly or don't recall plans of it, but I do recall 14 being there in the late '60's when there was -- as a 15 teenager camping at Ipperwash, that generally, yes. 16 Q: Where -- can you show us on the map 17 and -- and describe it, using the microphone, describe 18 the location? 19 A: I believe it -- I'm sorry. I believe 20 it was in this area here. 21 Q: Can you describe that area for us, 22 please? 23 A: Currently it's part of the campground 24 area. There was sort of a -- it's very flat, very little 25 soil conditions there.


1 The -- the shale is very close to the top 2 because it's actually very close to the area, the Stoney 3 Point area where the shards are found and the limestone 4 shale is located. 5 So it's very shallow going in this 6 direction. 7 Q: And just give us a little -- a little 8 more help. Is it approximately the south-east corner of 9 the intersection of the maintenance building road and the 10 Park road, going by the kiosk? 11 A: That is correct. 12 Q: And is there anything there now, 13 aside from the campground that would mark this area? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And would you go to Tab 212, please. 16 Inquiry document 1012501. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And this is an e-mail dated January 22 16, 1996, from yourself to Peter Sturdy. Does this 23 accurately reflect the outcome of the meeting that you 24 had with Marilyn Dulmage? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: I'd like to make this the next 5 exhibit, please? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-891, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-891: Document number 1012501. 9 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to P. Sturdy 10 Re: "Burial Site confirmation meeting - 11 Cornwall Jan. 15/'96", Jan. 16/'96 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: Now, did you receive any feedback 15 with respect to the role that you played during the 16 course of the three (3) days of September 4th, 5th and 17 6th, 1995, at Ipperwash? 18 A: In what -- in what regard? 19 Q: In -- in terms of an assessment of 20 the quality of your performance? 21 A: That I don't recollect. 22 Q: Would you go to Tab 167, Inquiry 23 document 1009227. It's an e-mail dated September 18, 24 1995, from Bob Crowell? 25 A: Oh, yes, yes.


1 Q: And you're shown to be copied on 2 that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And is that fair to say that -- well, 5 were any criticisms levelled at you by -- by the MNR with 6 respect to your performance? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Make this the next exhibit, please. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-892 Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-892: Document number 1009227. 12 E-mail from Bob Crowell Re: Ipperwash 13 situation, Sept. 18/'95. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Now, were you involved in any review 19 process in relation to the handling of the Ipperwash Park 20 incident? 21 A: I believe there was a meeting in -- 22 at some point after that -- Ontario -- Provincial Parks 23 meeting in regards to how to deal with issues very 24 similar to this. 25 Q: And would you --


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Would you go to Tab 206, please? 3 Inquiry document 1012495. E-mail dated January 10, 1996, 4 from Joanne Orton, administrative assistant regarding 5 notes from Ipperwash de-briefing, January 9th, 1996. 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And is the -- did you attend at this 8 de-briefing? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And what -- were any issues raised 11 that -- that deserved exploration or improvements as a 12 result of this debriefing? 13 A: I don't recall. I would have to read 14 the document and -- 15 Q: I note on the last page that -- 16 sorry, the second last page, there was critical incident 17 stress counselling that was offered to all staff 18 involved. Can you tell us about that? 19 A: Yes. Actually because the staff and 20 families of the staff and everyone that -- and it 21 affected all the employees. Not only those directly, in 22 fact, but all the employees of Pinery and Ipperwash and 23 their families. 24 We extended an invitation to them because 25 I think you have to recognize the fact that these people,


1 even though they were not probably directly involved, 2 they had additional work placed upon them that they had 3 to perform and so forth. 4 And it impacted everybody and everybody 5 was stressed, everybody performed long hours and -- and 6 they have to be complimented for the work they've done. 7 They did a tremendous job and -- from the people in the 8 office to the gate attendants to -- to everybody. 9 And we could tell that after a situation 10 like this, it was -- it was a very severe situation for 11 us and out of the norm, that there would be, I guess, 12 impacts, personal impacts, emotional impacts on -- on the 13 employees and their families. 14 So Don Matheson was actually -- took the 15 lead with this because he was personally impacted. He 16 had to move from his home and he was a long standing -- 17 it was his home actually, Ipperwash Provincial Park was 18 his home at one time. 19 So, obviously, he was feeling the -- the 20 stress associated with this. So, yes, I thought it was - 21 - we thought it was very important at the time to have 22 this type of a program for everybody. 23 Q: And did you have an opportunity to 24 review these notes at the time they were made? 25 A: I'm -- I'm sure I did, yes.


1 Q: And did they appear to set out an 2 accurate chronology of the events that took place from 3 '93 through to '95 with respect to the Park as far, as 4 you knew them? 5 A: It sticks in my mind that this was 6 fairly accurate, yes, or I would have made changes. 7 Q: If this could be the next exhibit 8 please. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-893, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-893: Document number 1012495. 12 E-mail from Joanne Orton to Various Re: 13 Notes from Ipperwash debriefing - Jan. 14 09/'96, Jan. 10/'96 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: And you indicated that you couldn't 18 recall if any issues were discussed with respect -- if 19 you would go to Tab 210, this is Inquiry Document 20 1012499. It appears to be the same text as the notes 21 from the Ipperwash debriefing with the exception that the 22 last -- last two (2) pages entitled, "Issues." 23 Do you see that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And have a look at these.


1 Are these the issues that were generated 2 from this debriefing? 3 A: I believe so. 4 Q: And do you recall who, in addition to 5 you, was in attendance at the debriefing? 6 A: No, I do not. 7 Q: All right. Was it purely an MNR 8 event? 9 A: That I -- I don't -- I can't recall. 10 Q: All right. Looking at the issues 11 then. The first bullet is, "MNR versus OPP lead." 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: What was the con -- what was the 14 issued raised in relation to this? 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: Is it fair to say that the OPP had 17 taken the lead during the three (3) day occupation? 18 A: Oh, very much so. 19 Q: And was there any concern that 20 perhaps the MNR should have taken the lead? 21 A: I don't believe so at the time. 22 Q: All right. The third bullet, "The 23 Briefing Process," did that refer to the briefing process 24 that -- that you had at the command post or...? 25 A: I believe it did.


1 Q: All right. And was any concerns 2 raised with respect to that? 3 A: Once again, the -- and because of the 4 caution that Chief Superintendent Coles spoke to Peter 5 and I about. I believe at the time we really felt that 6 there should have been much clearer definitions of what 7 our role was, from the Ministry viewpoint, at these 8 meetings and so forth. 9 But that -- in hindsight it's easy to say. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: But -- and that's why we've had this 12 sort of issues review, I believe, as to say, Hey, we did 13 a lot of things right but there are some things we can 14 improve upon upon. 15 And this happened to be, you know, one (1) 16 of the things that I personally would have -- would, at 17 this time, see as being something that should -- should 18 be taken -- considered. 19 Q: And the fourth bullet is, "Lack of -- 20 lack of protocol." 21 What was that with respect to? 22 A: I don't recall. 23 Q: All right. Do you recall what the 24 information -- the information flows up but nothing back, 25 what that was pertaining to?


1 A: Yeah, I can -- I can reflect on that 2 one. 3 Q: Yeah, so what was that? 4 A: Basically it's that, you know, I was 5 moving information upstairs but I really didn't know 6 where it was move -- where it was going from Peter's 7 level. I knew it was going to what they called an 8 Interministerial Committee, but I really didn't know what 9 the function of that committee was or -- or whatever, but 10 there was very little -- I was really kept out of the -- 11 out of the loop I guess. 12 It went down as far as Peter, I believe, 13 but other than that Peter did not relay anything about 14 the -- what had occurred at Interministerial Committees 15 or meetings or -- that he'd participated in and -- and 16 rightfully so, I guess. 17 But I -- I -- I don't know, I just felt 18 out of the loop even though I was providing information, 19 that I was sort of out there doing my thing, my job, but 20 I wasn't -- it wasn't a two (2) way street. 21 Q: Okay. And four (4) bullets from the 22 bottom, "Specialized Training," and one (1) of the items 23 is dealing with aboriginal people. 24 Can you recall what that was about? 25 A: Yes, it was probably about -- about


1 the poisoned workplace situation, sensitivities towards 2 First Nations people and others. Our -- if we're going 3 to use conservation officers, that what training they 4 should have in respect to dealing with civil disobedience 5 versus their regular duties. 6 I would have had all those concerns and -- 7 and in hindsight although everybody did -- let me clarify 8 that too. Everybody did a -- a very good job, but we 9 were looking at ways of improving what we'd done and I -- 10 I would say that, yes. 11 Q: All right. Anything else that 12 strikes you from this list of issues that -- that you 13 recall could have required -- would have benefited from 14 improvement? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: That -- that pretty -- pretty much 19 highlights -- highlights what I would consider as issues. 20 Q: All right. Would you kindly make 21 this the next exhibit, please? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-894, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-894: Document number 1012499. 25 E-mail cc'd to L. Kobayashi


1 et al from R. Baldwin Re: 2 "Notes from Ipperwash 3 debriefing - Jan.06/'96 - 4 Hostile Occ.", Jan. 15/'96. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: All right. And would you finally go 8 to Tab 214, please? This is Inquiry Document Number 9 1008178, an e-mail dated February 2nd, 1996. This 10 appears to have been a further review meeting with a 11 broader -- perhaps a broader membership that was held on 12 February the 1st, 1996 at the Toronto Airport Hilton 13 Hotel? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And you participated at that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And can you recall what the purpose 18 of this meeting was? 19 A: Just to review how -- how the Ontario 20 Ministry of Natural Resources dealt with situations like 21 Ipperwash; I would think that would be a part of it. I 22 don't recall the exact details of the meeting to be hon - 23 - I remember being there, but I don't recall the exact 24 details. 25 Q: Did they also deal with the Serpent


1 Mounds situation at this meeting? 2 A: Yes. Yes, it did. 3 Q: And if you would look at item number 4 4 page 3 entitled, "Crisis Management at the Centre," and 5 this apparently was delivered by Peter Allen. And you'll 6 see it says, for example: 7 "During a crisis the line of 8 communication is important internally 9 and while deal -- dealing with outside 10 agencies. During Ipperwash MNR didn't 11 know the new government's position in 12 regard to the native agenda. A change 13 took place at the centre on how this 14 crisis was handled." 15 Now, what was that about? 16 A: I believe it was in regards to the 17 things that were occurring above me at the 18 Interministerial Committee and, you know, how things 19 functioned was my understanding after the fact. 20 Once again, I -- I really didn't know or 21 really care at that particular point in time when this 22 was occurring what was happening there other than the 23 fact that whatever direction they -- whatever they wanted 24 me to do, that Peter would give me the direction to do 25 that.


1 And at that time I was so busy that I 2 really didn't have an opportunity to reflect on who was 3 doing what or what was happening above me, but... 4 Q: And what was the understanding of the 5 reference to, "the centre?" 6 A: I believe they were -- they weren't 7 talking about the command post centre, I believe they 8 were talking about the what was happening in -- at 9 Queen's Park. 10 Q: At Queen's Park? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And do you recall anything about the 13 following item: 14 "Fundamental management of Ipperwash 15 was removed from MNR (also at local 16 level) and managed by the Premier's 17 office." 18 A: I don't recall. 19 Q: Okay. If you go to item 6, roles and 20 responsibility that MNR Parks at Ipperwash. Peter 21 Sturdy, Les Kobayashi. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you make a presentation on this? 24 A: I don't -- I can't recall if I did or 25 not, to be honest with you. I imagine Peter would --


1 would have taken the lead with this. 2 Q: All right. Well this an accurate 3 reflection of -- of your role during the Park occupation? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Correct. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now the last bullet on this page 12 says: 13 "Situation remains volatile." 14 Do you recall what that was about? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Yes. From a community perspective, I 19 believe we were talking about the loss of tourism 20 opportunities, the impacts that it may have on the -- the 21 private businesses, the lives of the people that lived in 22 the area. 23 A lot of livelihoods were at stake in -- 24 in respect to the loss of the Park. It did generate 25 tremendous spin offs for the area and people were very


1 reluctant to -- to use the area, even though the Park was 2 closed and per se there wasn't any violence activities 3 happening. 4 But still people were very reluctant to 5 come and use the beach areas. And I know a lot of the 6 community people were -- different organizations in the 7 township office and so forth, were all calling me 8 constantly. 9 The Member of Parliament, MPP, Marcel 10 Beaubien would speak to me at lengths on how we could try 11 to improve things to get things back rolling. 12 And Rosemary Ur's office and Township of 13 Bosanquet, Ken Williams, everybody was concerned about 14 survival, I guess, financial survival as well at the time 15 because it had significant -- significant impacts. 16 Q: I'd like to make this the next 17 exhibit, please? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-895, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-895: Document number 1008178 21 E-mail from Dave Jackson , 22 MNR Communications Re: "RHO 23 Minutes - February", Feb. 24 02/'96 25


1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: And to your knowledge, was a report 3 generated as a result of this particular meeting? 4 A: I don't recollect. 5 Q: Could we put Exhibit P-802 in front 6 of the witness, please? It's Inquiry document 1012220. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And this is a report entitled, 11 "Accountability and contingency planning: A review of the 12 1995 occupations at Ipperwash and Serpent Mounds 13 Provincial Parks." 14 Did you receive a copy of this? 15 A: I believe I did. 16 Q: And was this a result or the result 17 of the meeting we just reviewed, do you know? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: Now, aside from the -- well, let me 20 ask you this. One of the mandates of the Commission is 21 to make recommendations about ways to prevent similar 22 situations of violence in the future. 23 Do you have any suggestions or 24 recommendations for the Commissioner's consideration? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: That's a pretty important question 4 and I'd like to take a few moments just to -- just to 5 sort of think about this. 6 Q: Certainly. 7 A: I guess, in part, I would like to see 8 clearer definitions of responsibilities in respect to 9 people like myself and my staff and the staff working 10 with me and the -- sort of the interaction between the 11 district and parks program. 12 It worked well, but I think we're looking 13 in hindsight now and saying how can we improve things. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And -- and in reality, this -- this 16 document here does make recommendations, I believe, on 17 how we can improve things so. 18 From the Ministry's viewpoint, I don't 19 know. I'd have to think about it a lot longer to -- to 20 really say, hey, you know, these are the things that -- 21 that should be done or shouldn't be done. 22 But I -- I just believe that all the staff 23 -- all the people that I dealt with, the OPP, everyone 24 did their jobs to the best of their abilities, I did -- I 25 felt everything was extremely professional.


1 How the OPP could improve, in my 2 perspective, they did a tremendous job under very trying 3 circumstances and so did our staff. 4 Q: All right. With that, I want to 5 thank you very much, Mr. Kobayashi. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That concludes my 7 Examination-In-Chief and perhaps we could take a tally of 8 the Cross-Examinations before we break for lunch. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 Anybody who wishes to examine Mr. Kobayashi, please 11 indicate in the usual manner. Mr. Downard? 12 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I estimate two (2) 13 hours, subject to -- 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Downard, two (2) 15 hours. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Sulman? 17 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Yes, Mr. 18 Commissioner, probably five (5) to ten (10) minutes. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Five (5) to ten (10) 20 minutes for Mr. Sulman. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Perschy? 22 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Half an hour to three- 23 quarters of an hour. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thirty (30) to forty- 25 five (45) minutes for Ms. Perschy.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 2 Jackson? 3 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Fifteen (15) 4 minutes. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Fifteen (15) minutes 6 for Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 8 Roland...? 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Twenty (20) to thirty 10 (30) minutes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Twenty (20) to thirty 13 (30) minutes for Mr. Roland. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 15 Clermont? 16 MS. JANET CLERMONT: Five (5) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 18 minutes. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Five (5) minutes for 20 Ms. Clermont. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 22 Alexander...? 23 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Two and a half (2 24 1/2) to three (3) hours and Mr. Zbogar will be here to 25 Cross-Examine.


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Zbogar, two and a 2 half (2 1/2) to three (3) hours. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 4 Scullion? I am sorry, Ms. Esmonde. I am looking right 5 at you, I am looking at Mr. Scullion. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: They look quite 7 different. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I am sorry. 9 They certainly do, I am sorry, Ms. Esmonde. 10 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: An hour to an hour 11 and a half. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Hour to an hour and a 13 half to Ms. Esmonde. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 15 Scullion? 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's the same. 17 Going to be an hour to an hour and a half. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I am 19 hoping -- 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Same for Mr. Scullion. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I am 22 hoping that, depending on how one goes, another may be 23 affected, well one way or the other, you never know, but 24 I appreciate the efforts people are making accurate 25 estimates.


1 Mr. Henderson...? 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'll reserve 3 fifteen (15) minutes. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Fifteen (15) minutes 5 for Mr. Henderson. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. And 7 Mr. Horner, yes? 8 MR. MATTHEW HORNER: I'll reserve twenty 9 (20) minutes. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Twenty (20) minutes, 11 Mr. Horner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy...? 13 MR. JULIAN ROY: Probably three-quarters 14 of an hour to an hour, depending on what others do. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Depending on 16 what others do. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Forty-five (45) minutes 18 to an hour for Mr. Roy. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 20 Myrka, I guess you can only assess after you have seen 21 what happens? 22 MR. WALTER MYRKA: That's correct. Thank 23 you, Commissioner. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Reserved for Mr. Myrka. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this


1 would be a good time for us take our lunch break, and 2 start the Examination right after. Have you got a tally 3 there? 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, we have a tally. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Roughly, can 6 we finish by the end of tomorrow? Is that a possibility? 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good. Thank 9 you very much. Let us have lunch and continue right 10 after. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 12 adjourned until 1:15. 13 14 --- Upon adjourning at 12:00 p.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 1:16 p.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 20 Vella...? 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good afternoon. Just 22 prior to starting the cross-examination I neglected to 23 have the document at Tab 201, Inquiry Document 1009201 24 entered as an exhibit. Can we have that as an exhibit 25 please?


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-896, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-896: Document number 1009201 4 E- mail from L. Kobayashi to 5 P. Sturdy Re: "Ipperwash 6 Issue". Jan. 04/'96. 7 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 Yes, Mr. Downard...? 11 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Good afternoon, 12 Commissioner. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION MR. PETER DOWNARD: 15 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Kobayashi. 16 A: Good afternoon. 17 Q: My name is Peter Downard and I appear 18 for former Ontario Premier Mike Harris. 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And I just have some questions for 21 you about this matter. Perhaps, to start, if I can refer 22 you to Tab 47 of your brief. This is Exhibit P-839 and 23 Commission document 1007800. 24 And you'll recall that this letter was 25 reviewed in the course of your examination by Ms. Vella?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And as stated in the third paragraph 3 of this letter that you told us previously that you 4 wrote, you stated that Ipperwash,, as at May of 1993, was 5 Ontario's fourth (4th) oldest Provincial Park? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And that was true? 8 A: That is correct. 9 Q: And, as at 1993, it was your 10 knowledge that Ipperwash had been one of the most popular 11 parks in the Provincial Park syste; is that correct? 12 A: That is correct. 13 Q: And as I understand it, in 1995 -- 14 Ipperwash Provincial Park had been open since 1938, 15 correct? 16 A: That is correct. 17 Q: So over fifty (50) years and fifty- 18 seven (57) years to be exact. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the Park annually provided day 21 use and camping for thousands of visitors; is that right? 22 A: That is correct. 23 Q: And if I can refer you to Exhibit P- 24 796 which is Commission document 1009006. 25


1 (BRIEFPAUSE) 2 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Commissioner, do you 4 have a copy of the exhibit? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 6 sure. Is it in these binders, or it's not? 7 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I don't think it is 8 but I have a copy for you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I appreciate 10 that. 11 MR. PETER DOWNARD: And it's Commission 12 Document 1009006. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 9006? And 14 it's Exhibit 796? 15 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 18 Q: Now, you recall reviewing this 19 document with Ms. Vella in your evidence? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: And you'll see that at the second 22 page of this document, which is dated September 18th, 23 1995. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And it's Tab 168 just 25 for the record.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is in the 2 tab? 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Pardon me. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 8 Q: So then if you look at the second 9 page you'll see there's a paragraph at about the -- the 10 middle of the page that says, quote: 11 "Affect loss of public opportunities in 12 the following areas: Day use, sixteen 13 thousand two hundred and eighty-four 14 (16,284); camping, fifty seven thousand 15 nine hundred and ninety-six (57,996); 16 Crown property day use, forty-two 17 thousand two hundred and forty 18 (42,240)." 19 Now, was it your understanding in 1995 20 that these figures reflected the number of persons who 21 were using Ipperwash Provincial Park on an annual basis? 22 A: That is correct. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: And do you know what is referred to 2 by the phrase, "Crown property day use?" 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: What is that? 5 A: Crown properties are areas of Crown 6 land that were not regulated in the Park but we operated 7 on behalf of the Ontario -- Ministry of Natural 8 Resources. We maintained the property, it was free -- 9 free access. People could use the parking lots, walk 10 across East Parkway Road, go onto a piece of property 11 that was Crown land that would -- which we maintained 12 with comfort stations and we maintained the beach in 13 front as well. 14 Q: And as Park Superintendent in 1995 15 you had general knowledge as to the degree of usage of 16 the Park by persons? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And the Crown land? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And would this figure of forty-two 21 thousand two hundred and forty (42,240) persons involved 22 in Crown property day use, would that, on the basis of 23 your understanding and knowledge, refer to persons in 24 addition to and separate from -- from the fifty thousand 25 nine hundred and ninety-six (57,996) persons using the


1 Park for camping annually? 2 A: That's correct. And these -- these 3 were opportunities, they were not actual people but they 4 were the opportunities that were lost. So if you had a 5 parking lot that would hold four hundred (400) cars then 6 you would multiply that by the average figure. 7 Q: Oh, so -- 8 A: Yeah. Average figure of occupants. 9 So it was the opportunities, and I believe this is the 10 opportunities and not the people. 11 Q: Okay. So then for example the -- 12 A: For the Crown beach areas. 13 Q: What about for the camping? 14 A: The camping -- the camping and day 15 use was derived from campsite and vehicle permits and we 16 used an average number of occupants through a number of 17 day use surveys or camping surveys that -- surveys that 18 we've had over the years and we had a figure that we used 19 per average, but we would take that from the actual 20 permits sold. 21 Q: Okay. So -- so the camping figure of 22 fifty seven thousand nine hundred and ninety-six (57,996) 23 persons would reflect the number of permits sold? 24 A: It would be -- it would reflect the 25 number of estimated user -- campers, actually campers.


1 Q: Actual users? 2 A: Yes, that's right. 3 Q: And likewise for day use? 4 A: That is correct. 5 Q: And as at 1995 for how many years had 6 this level of usage continued? 7 A: It was a very active part right from 8 -- from the '60's right through until the -- until 1995. 9 It was -- we could go through the annual use statistics 10 and so forth, but it was a very high, high use Park, very 11 intense. 12 Q: And you were saying that the 13 Assistant Superintendent Don Matheson grew up there? 14 A: Yes, he did. 15 Q: In -- in what sense did he grow up 16 there? 17 A: His dad was the Park superintendent, 18 I believe, from 1955 to -- in the '60's and Don actually 19 grew up in the Park. I believe there was a residence 20 there at one (1) time that he lived in. 21 Q: And you said that the Park, during 22 the camping season, was like a town or village of -- or - 23 - or hamlet? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: It was a seasonal, ongoing,


1 established community, in a sense? 2 A: Exactly. 3 Q: And it's certainly important to 4 appreciate that there are many First Nations people who 5 feel a very important connection to that land. 6 However, I did want to explore with you 7 something that's come up in the evidence which is the 8 notion of connections of families who used the Park over 9 many years. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Were and -- whether they were native 12 or non-native. 13 And were you aware that there was a 14 significant number of families who used the Park on a 15 repeated basis for year after year? 16 A: It was a traditional destination Park 17 for many, many families. Many families from Michigan and 18 Ontario used the Park for their two (2) or three (3) week 19 or one (1) week vacation, annually. 20 When we had a reservations service, it was 21 -- the traditional sites that they would have occupied -- 22 campsites that they would have occupied would have been 23 very sought after by them. 24 Q: Do you have any knowledge or 25 understanding or reasonable estimate of the proportion of


1 annual users of the Park who were long term, repeat 2 users? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: A guess would be perhaps 20 percent, 7 30 percent, in there here someplace. 8 Q: Okay. But that's -- that's a guess 9 and at best, an educated guess? 10 A: That's correct, yes. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, I'd like to take you to the 15 affidavit that you swore in connection with the 16 injunction proceedings in this matter, which is Exhibit 17 P-551. I believe there's an unsworn copy in the brief, 18 Exhibit P-551 is a sworn copy. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 23 Q: It forms part of a Motion record that 24 was distributed electronically to -- to Counsel. 25 Commissioner, I have a -- I have a copy if --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There is a 2 copy in the binder, isn't there? 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: It's an unsworn -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's an 5 unsworn one. The one in the -- you want the sworn one? 6 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, I don't think 7 there's a material difference. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 9 why I -- 10 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yeah, we can -- we 11 can use that. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What Tab 13 number is the unsworn one at; do you know, Ms. Vella? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. PETER DOWNARD: 155. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 23 Q: Now, sir, do you -- you recognize 24 this document? 25 A: I do.


1 Q: And this is an affidavit that you 2 swore on September 7, 1995? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And I take it that the contents were 5 true when you swore this document? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And if I can refer you to paragraph 8 11, in particular. And I'll just read it onto the 9 record. Paragraph 11 reads, quote: 10 "The Park is intensively developed. 11 The camping season ends in the Park at 12 2:00 p.m. on Labour Day. 13 Following Labour Day, permits for day 14 use are no longer sold by the Park. 15 However, it is still extensively used 16 by the public on a casual basis. On a 17 fine, fall weekend up to three hundred 18 (300) people may use the Park and 19 approximately five thousand (5,000) 20 people use it between Labour Day and 21 the end of November. 22 There is an extensive cottage community 23 near the Park." 24 Unquote. Now, I take it that when you 25 swore this affidavit, all of those facts were true?


1 A: That is correct. 2 Q: And for how long had it been the case 3 that after the Park closed on Labour Day, the Park was 4 extensively used by the public on a casual basis with up 5 to three hundred (300) people using the Park on a fine, 6 fall weekend, as you describe it, and approximately five 7 thousand (5,000) people using it between Labour Day and 8 the end of November? 9 A: At one point in time I believe we 10 operated Provincial Parks -- all the Provincial Parks 11 until Thanksgiving and I'm not sure exactly the date that 12 that changed, but it was quite a number of years ago, 13 prior to the 1995, that due to constraints, the Ontario 14 Government or Ontario Provincial Parks program started 15 closing the operations of some of the smaller Parks on 16 Labour Day. 17 And I -- I can't recollect exactly when 18 that occurred, but it was prior to my time at Ipperwash. 19 Q: And had -- had this level of use 20 after Labour Day continued throughout your time at 21 Ipperwash? 22 A: Oh yes. Yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: Bear with me for a moment, sir. 2 A: Sure. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: I simply note that at Tab 155 the 7 paragraph -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 9 paragraph number is different. 10 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yeah. Paragraph 11 11 in -- in the sworn copy is paragraph 10 in the unsworn 12 copy but there's no difference in the language. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 15 Q: Now, sir, I take it that in light of 16 the degree of use of the Park for many years, that you 17 had described to us, by the public that you as the Park 18 Superintendent regarded Ipperwash Provincial Park as an 19 important public asset, is that fair? 20 A: There's no question about that, yes. 21 Q: And I take it was owned and operated 22 by Ontario for the benefit of the public at large? 23 A: That is correct. 24 Q: And you in particular were entrusted 25 by Ontario with managing the Park for the benefit of the


1 public as a whole? 2 A: That is correct. 3 Q: Okay. Now if I can refer you to 4 Exhibit P-796 again the -- the document with some -- 5 which has the usage day that we referred to previously. 6 I don't intend to spend a great deal of 7 time on the financial dimension of this, but when Mr. 8 Sturdy was here he testified that he believed that the -- 9 the various financial estimates in this document were -- 10 were reasonably accurate estimates. 11 Is that your knowledge of understanding as 12 well? 13 A: I believe so, yes. 14 Q: And if you can look at the -- the 15 last page of the memo, you'll see that there was a 16 reference to a number of private operators. 17 A: Yes. That's correct. 18 Q: That's ten (10) private operators who 19 provided services in connection with the Park. 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Were those contractors who are 22 providing the services of full time employees exclusively 23 dedicated to the Park? 24 A: That is correct. 25 Q: And in some cases were they providing


1 the services of numerous employees? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Now I want to move to a different 4 subject and in particular I'd like to refer -- refer you 5 to Tab 66 in your brief. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you told us about contacts that 8 you had with Maynard George in 1993. 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And I take it that -- that you 11 understood that Maynard George appeared to be taking care 12 to inform you as to what his group's intentions were 13 regarding the Park? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And he was taking care to establish 16 open communications with you regarding the Park? 17 A: That is correct. 18 Q: But even at that time it was the 19 position of Chief Tom Bressette that he was opposed to 20 various actions being taken regarding the Army Camp or 21 the Park by Maynard T. George and his group? 22 A: That is correct. 23 Q: And if I can refer you to the 24 memorandum at Tab 66 which is the June 11th, 1993 25 memorandum, Commission document 1010386.


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's Exhibit P-847. 2 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thanks very much for 3 that. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 6 Q: You'll see that around of the middle 7 of the page there's a paragraph that reads and I quote: 8 "Letters to Maynard George from 9 Minister in response to Maynard's 10 letter and the letter re: our position 11 regarding the notice. He suggested it 12 be sent via mail as he felt that hand 13 delivery would create a perception of 14 acknowledging Maynard and his group as 15 a legitimate entity. 16 He reiterated on several occasions that 17 Maynard and his group should be treated 18 as trespassers at Ipperwash Park as the 19 notice was not legal." 20 And you'll see from the language at the 21 outset as you reviewed previously that this memorandum 22 documents discussions with Chief Tom Bressette. 23 Is it -- it is correct that it was the 24 position of Chief Tom Bressette in 1993 that he did not 25 want you, on behalf of the government, taking any steps


1 that would create a perception of acknowledging the 2 legitimacy of Maynard T. George and his group? 3 A: That's accurate, yes. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And if I can refer you to Tab 39 of 8 your brief which is Exhibit P-841 Commission Document 9 1010419 this is an e-mail from Terry Humberstone to Ron 10 Baldwin that was reviewed with you in -- in direct, dated 11 May 20th, 1993 regarding a conversation with Tom 12 Bressette. 13 And this is the memorandum that you'll 14 recall referring to in your evidence in direct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And there's a report here that Tom 17 Bressette thought that the Park -- management was setting 18 themselves for real trouble by letting Maynard T.'s group 19 into -- Maynard T. George's group into the Park to 20 demonstrate. Do you recall that? 21 A: That is correct. 22 Q: And you'll see at the end of this 23 paragraph number 2 the words appear, quote: "He thinks 24 we should evict them now." Unquote. That -- was that 25 your understanding in -- in or around May of 1993 as to


1 Tom Bressette's position? 2 A: That is correct. 3 Q: Now, if I can turn you to Tab 81 of 4 your brief which is Exhibit P-852, Commission Document 5 1010367 and it's an e-mail from yourself dated July 16th, 6 1993 which you -- you recall reviewing in direct 7 evidence? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And this is the e-mail that -- that 10 involves your giving directions regarding how any 11 difficulties involving First Nations persons should be 12 addressed, right? 13 A: That is correct. 14 Q: And this is where you had said that: 15 "All situations and occurrences must be 16 treated as extremely sensitive and the 17 appropriate actions taken (Non- 18 confrontational)." 19 Right? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And so -- and -- and then at the end 22 of the memo it also says, quote: 23 "If there are any situations which 24 should occur and you are not certain 25 how to proceed do not hesitate to


1 contact the duty officer, but don't be 2 afraid to do your job by taking the 3 appropriate action if necessary." 4 Unquote 5 Now, do you recall what you were referring 6 to as the -- the job of the persons to whom this 7 direction was given and what you were referring to by 8 "appropriate action if necessary?" 9 A: I do not. 10 Q: Could -- could that involve Ministry 11 staff exercising any sort of power of -- of arrest if 12 need be? 13 A: If it was life and death or a safety 14 situation, yes, I would suggest that. 15 Q: Or -- or removal of persons from the 16 Park? 17 A: Evicting persons, yes, that's right. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And if I can refer you to Tab 87 22 which is Exhibit P-858 and Commission document 1010358, 23 the e-mail dated July 27, 1993, to Ron Baldwin and Terry 24 Humberstone. 25 Do you recall reviewing this in your


1 evidence? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And this was an e-mail that you 4 received? If you look at the second page, sir. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Second page? 9 Q: Well, I have a second page which 10 indicates that -- it's an e-mail to you from Terry 11 Humberstone saying that the attached is for your 12 information and file. 13 A: That was Tab 87? 14 Q: Yes, but it doesn't appear to be in 15 your binder. You know what, let's not worry about that. 16 It's not necessary to my question. 17 I just want to read you this -- 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: I'm sorry. See, I'm used to 22 everybody being able to hear my voice naturally. 23 Now, you'll see that in the second 24 paragraph it reads, quote: 25 "Apparently the military placed a


1 number of cement cubes at the beach end 2 of Matheson Drive recently to prevent 3 vehicular traffic onto the military 4 beach. 5 Last night about a dozen natives came 6 to the beach at approximately 10:00 7 p.m. and tried to move them by hand. 8 They couldn't, so they did the next 9 best thing and wrecked the military 10 signs that were at the beach area, 11 which warns people re the military 12 property, no trespass et cetera. 13 At that point, a number of Park users 14 came to voice their objections and were 15 told the usual stuff about our guns are 16 bigger than yours, et cetera. 17 The military then came down and checked 18 the damage and made reports (the 19 Indians had left)." 20 Unquote. Now, do you have any idea what 21 Mr. Humberstone was referring to when he -- he talks 22 about Park users being quote, "told the usual stuff about 23 our guns are bigger than yours, et cetera", unquote. 24 Does that ring any sort of a bell with 25 you?


1 A: It does not. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And if I can refer you to Tab 97, 6 which is Commission document 1010334. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's Exhibit P-862. 8 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thank you. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 11 Q: This is a -- an e-mail that was 12 reviewed with you in direct, dated February 24, 1994. Do 13 you recall reviewing this? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you were the author of this e- 16 mail? 17 A: That is correct. 18 Q: And you'll see there's a paragraph 19 here which is in reference to anticipated issues that are 20 going to concern us this season, and that would be the 21 1994 season of course, right? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And it reads -- one of the points 24 reads, quote: 25 "The occupation of the base will be


1 unlimited this year with few 2 restrictions to native people on the 3 base. This will no doubt create an 4 enforcement issue with the Park. 5 The same as last season (thefts, 6 harassment, trespass, restrictive use, 7 et cetera)." 8 Unquote. Now, I'll just -- as I say, 9 we'll stop there. 10 Now, what were you referring to by 11 "restrictive use"? 12 A: The access of our users going out to 13 the DND base where there had been conflicts in the past. 14 Q: The access of your users being 15 prevented? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: All right. And as I understand it in 18 1993, you had numerous complaints of thefts, harassment 19 and trespass regarding First Nations persons? 20 A: I believe there were some occurrences 21 reported to us, yes. 22 Q: And you'll see the next paragraph 23 reads, quote: 24 "I understand through the grapevine 25 that they may be re-opening the


1 marriage patch campground in the base. 2 This is located adjacent to Ipperwash 3 Park. This will no doubt create an 4 enforcement nightmare for us, 5 especially if the wrong type of 6 clientele take residency there." 7 Unquote. Now, who as you under -- 8 understood it, was maybe re-opening this so-called 9 marriage patch campground? 10 A: I'm really -- in 1994 I would suggest 11 that it would have been the First Nations people, Stoney 12 Point people. 13 Q: And what were you referring to by a 14 "enforcement nightmare," is there anything more you can 15 tell us about that? 16 A: I -- I would suggest that we would 17 have anticipated that there would be considerably more 18 confrontational situations between users of the marriage 19 patch because there would be a lot more concentration of 20 people in that particular area. 21 And there would certainly be 22 confrontations between them and all our users as well, 23 going back and forth. 24 Q: And your experience previously had 25 been, as I understand it, that there tended to be


1 concentrations of First Nations people and camp users in 2 the area dividing the Park beach and the DND beach, 3 right? 4 A: That is correct. 5 Q: And in your experience there had been 6 a number of confrontations in that area? 7 A: That is correct. 8 Q: Now when Mr. Roderick George, also 9 known as -- as Judas by a nickname, testified here he 10 talked about an incident in which his son, Mr. Nick 11 Cottrelle, had been arrested in the summer of 1995 at the 12 Provincial Park and was charged with burning unexploded 13 ordinates warning signs that the military had put up. 14 And Mr. George testified that he went down 15 to the scene where the signs were being burned and he 16 said, and this is at page 77 and 78 on the first day of 17 his evidence, that he got mad and started swearing and he 18 said, "Enjoy your Park," "It's not going to be here next 19 year." 20 Now was that something that ever came to 21 your attention in the summer of 1995? 22 A: I don't believe so. I don't 23 recollect. 24 Q: Is that consistent with other things 25 that you heard in September of 1995 from some First


1 Nations people? 2 A: That is correct. 3 Q: Now, when Ms. Bonnie Bressette was 4 here and testified, she said that while the occupation 5 was in process at its outset, she went to the Park and 6 she spoke with Mr. Glen George and the late Dudley 7 George. 8 And he said that -- or she said, pardon 9 me, that they explained to her that they had talked with 10 someone whose name was Les, who ran the Park. And that 11 they had told Les they were going to come into the Park 12 and have a sit-in and get the fact that there was a 13 burial ground within the Park addressed. 14 Now, prior to the commencement of the 15 occupation in September of 1995, did any representative, 16 and I'm referring to 1995 now, any representative of 17 Stoney Point people come and talk to you and say they 18 were going to have a sit-in at the Park? 19 A: Never. 20 Q: Did any person on behalf of the 21 Stoney Point people come to you in 1995 and say that 22 there was going to be some -- some sort of action taken 23 because there was a burial ground in the Park? 24 A: No. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: In 1995, did anyone on behalf of the 4 Stoney Point people come to you and say that Stoney Point 5 people were going to take the Park over? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Now, if you just bear with me for one 8 moment, sir. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Now, sir, when Liz Thunder, as she 13 was in 1995, testified here -- actually let me -- let me 14 step back a bit. 15 In 1995 did anyone involved with the 16 Kettle and Stony Point Band tell you that the Kettle and 17 Stony Point Band wanted to have ownership of Ipperwash 18 Provincial Park? I'm talk -- and I'm asking something 19 that's distinct about any discussions of co-management, 20 I'm asking whether anyone on behalf of the Kettle and 21 Stony Point Band advised you that they had a -- put it 22 this way, had a formal or informal claim to ownership of 23 the Park? 24 A: I believe when Liz Thunder and I were 25 having our many conversations that it may have been


1 brought up that they were looking at the ownership issue 2 in respect to the Park. Other than that it wasn't -- it 3 wasn't a formal discussion or anything of that nature 4 because most of my conversations with Liz Thunder were in 5 respect to how we can improve things, how we can move 6 forward, that type of thing. And it was just a lot of 7 brainstorming too. 8 Q: Did Ms. Thunder or anyone else on 9 behalf of the Kettle and Stony Point Band elaborate any 10 particular basis for the Kettle and Stony Point Band 11 having a claim to the Park? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did anyone on behalf of the Kettle 14 and Stony Point Band or on behalf of the -- the Stoney 15 Point Group of people who were in occupation at the Army 16 Camp, ever come to you and say that there is some valid 17 ground for objecting to the original surrender of the 18 land on which the Park was located and explain that to 19 you? 20 A: No. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Now, I want to come to something that 25 you might have covered and I might have -- I might have


1 just missed. 2 As I understand it, at one (1) point, at 3 the east gate of the Park which would have been on the -- 4 on Matheson Drive running down the -- the east boundary 5 of the Park -- at one (1) point there were three (3) or 6 four (4) big cement blocks at -- at that gate? 7 Do you recall that in 1995? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: So you don't recall anything that of 10 course -- about any such blocks being removed in that 11 area at or around the time of the occupation? 12 A: I recollect at some point in time 13 there were blocks removed, yes, but I -- I don't recall 14 exactly where they were at the time. 15 Q: Okay. You don't recall -- 16 A: I do recall it at some point coming 17 up, but I'm just not -- my recollection is not that clear 18 in respect to this. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall why those blocks 20 were removed? 21 A: I do not. 22 Q: Were they blocks that were blocking 23 some point of access to the Park? 24 A: I assume so. 25 Q: Okay. Thanks.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, on the evening of September 4th, 4 were you ever involved in providing keys to any of the 5 Park buildings to any of the occupying persons? 6 A: I believe it was at that time when 7 Sergeant Korosec, during the -- you know, the actual 8 occupation and the confrontation, came to me and advised 9 me that -- and I believe it was just around the time that 10 we were leaving that there was a -- that there was -- he 11 requested that I provide keys to the pumphouse and keys 12 to the comfort stations. And the reason for that was 13 that they were going to break the doors down unless we 14 provided the keys. 15 Now, I never carried keys individually for 16 -- for Ipperwash itself, because I would have had a ring 17 of keys, but I believe I either -- I asked Don Matheson 18 and I believe Don provided those two (2) keys to Sergeant 19 Korosec or one of the OPP and then, in turn, the keys 20 were provided, only because that they were going to 21 damage the buildings in respect to entering the 22 buildings, because they were all locked at that time. 23 Q: And to be -- to be fair, did you 24 observe any First Nation person saying that the buildings 25 would be damaged if they didn't get the keys or is that


1 information that Sergeant Korosec relayed to you? 2 A: That was relayed to me. 3 Q: So I -- I take it that you had no 4 intention whatsoever to -- to voluntarily transfer 5 exclusive control of Ipperwash Provincial Park to the 6 First Nations occupiers? 7 A: I certainly did not. 8 Q: Yes. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Now, if I can refer you to... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Tab 132 in your brief. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: This is Exhibit P-879, and Commission 21 document 1010255. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And if you look at the second page,


1 this is a portion of this Will Say statement that refers 2 to the incident with Roderick George smashing the back 3 window of an OPP cruiser, and you'll it at the -- in the 4 last sentence, or second last sentence of the -- the 5 paragraph at the top of the page, it says, quote: 6 "He was belligerent and face to face 7 with OPP officer. [It says Korsiack 8 (phonetic) but I think it's fair to say 9 it's] Korosec". 10 Unquote. Now, do you recall this face to 11 face activity? 12 A: I do so, I do so. 13 Q: How close to the officer's face was 14 Roderick George? 15 A: A couple of feet, he was hollering. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And you were taken to some scribe 20 notes, an extract from scribe notes at Tab 131 of your 21 materials, Exhibit P-879 and Commission document number 22 14000066. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I believe it's Exhibit 24 P-426, that's the scribe notes. 25 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Ms. Vella should


1 know. That's undoubtedly right, Exhibit P-426? 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's correct. 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thank you. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 6 Q: And at the third page under the Tab, 7 there's a statement attributed to you around the middle 8 of the page until the 2145 hours point; do you see that? 9 Where it says, quote: 10 "Les Kobayashi, that Judas was just 11 uncontrollable." 12 Unquote. 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And did -- did you say that at the 15 time? 16 A: I believe I did, yes. 17 Q: Is -- is that -- that was your -- 18 your view as to Mr. Roderick George's behaviour on the -- 19 that occasion? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And this also says, quote: 22 "One thousand (1,000) gallons of gas in 23 tank there." 24 Unquote. You had a concern about that? 25 A: I did so, because it was flammable


1 material and it could be -- and I believe at one (1) 2 point prior to that I asked if there was anything -- I 3 was asked by the OPP if there was anything there that was 4 flammable or explosive, and I believe that's why I 5 mentioned it at the time. 6 Q: And what -- was it your concern that 7 if -- if there were persons, and I'm not putting this to 8 you as a fact, if there were persons who were behaving in 9 an uncontrollable fashion, that gasoline could be used to 10 make explosives? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: All right. And when you observed Mr. 13 Roderick George in the course of this incident, I believe 14 your evidence was that you saw him carrying a large staff 15 or stick? 16 A: That is correct. 17 Q: And that's what he used to break the 18 window? 19 A: That is correct. 20 Q: Do you recall approximately how large 21 it was? 22 A: Six (6) feet. 23 Q: So I -- I take it that you would not 24 think it would be accurate to characterize that stick as 25 "just some little stick?"


1 A: No. That's right. 2 Q: And as I understand it, during the 3 course of this incident involving Roderick George, there 4 was a significant of other First Nations people present, 5 right? 6 A: That is correct. 7 Q: And as I understand your evidence, 8 there was significantly more of them than there were of 9 yourself, MNR people and OPP people? 10 A: That is correct. 11 Q: Do you recall approximately what the 12 proportions were? 13 A: Four (4) to one (1). Somewhere 14 around in there I guess. 15 Q: And do you recall whether, after 16 Roderick George smashed the OPP cruiser window, any First 17 Nations person did anything in response to that, that you 18 observed? 19 A: No. I don't recollect. 20 Q: And on the basis of your observation 21 of how this occupation had commenced, and in particular 22 this incident involving Roderick George, what would you 23 say to the proposition that this occupation of Ipperwash 24 Provincial Park, and now I'm just going to refer to the 25 evening of the 4th, was a peaceful occupation?


1 What would you say to that? 2 A: I would say that, that would be 3 incorrect. 4 Q: And after this incident with Roderick 5 George smashing the OPP window, did you form an 6 apprehension that if yourself and other MNR people and 7 OPP personnel did not leave, there would be violence or 8 you would be removed by force by the First Nations 9 people? 10 A: That is correct. I would have -- I 11 was concerned. 12 Q: And if we can go back to your 13 affidavit, Exhibit P-551, and in particular paragraph 16, 14 and I note that paragraph 16 in the sworn affidavit is 15 paragraph 15 in the unsworn affidavit at Tab 155 and 16 there's no difference between the text. 17 At that paragraph, you swore, and I quote: 18 "At 10:01 I closed the Park under 19 Subsection 32 sub 1 of Regulation 952 20 of revised regulations of Ontario for 21 1990 made under the Provincial Parks 22 Act. 23 I was concerned with public safety and 24 felt this was an emergency situation." 25 Unquote. And take it that that was your


1 view at the time. 2 A: That is correct. 3 Q: Now we've heard evidence that, after 4 the occupation commenced, a refrigerator or upright 5 freezer was taken and removed from the Park by -- a First 6 Nations person has been named but I'm not going to give 7 any names, were you aware of that? 8 A: I don't recollect it. 9 Q: And we've heard evidence that persons 10 among the occupying group, once the occupation had 11 commenced, were pulling their cars up to the underground 12 gas tank with a thousand (1000) gallons and loading up 13 their cars with gas. 14 Did you become aware of that? 15 A: I don't recollect. 16 Q: Now, I understand that there was -- 17 prior to the occupation, there was some form, and I don't 18 know much about this, there was some form of monument to 19 First Nations people that was in the Park. 20 Do you know anything about that? 21 A: No. No I don't. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And we heard evidence from Mr. David


1 Abraham George about an encounter he had with MNR staff 2 people on the -- the night of September 4th where -- in 3 which he was -- he was carrying a stick and he spoke to 4 some MNR people and they let him look around in one of 5 the Park buildings. 6 Do you have any recollection or 7 information about that? 8 A: I do not. 9 Q: Now, I want to ask you a little bit 10 about -- and I know you don't recall that much about 11 this, about your attendance on September 5th at the -- 12 at the Park with Detective Sergeant Mark Wright. 13 And that was -- that was an attempt to 14 open up communications, right? 15 A: That is correct. 16 Q: All right. And so, as I understand 17 it, you had repeatedly sought to communicate with the 18 occupiers on the night of the 4th, right? 19 A: That is correct. 20 Q: And you tried twice on the 5th with 21 Detective Sergeant Wright to communicate with the 22 occupiers? 23 A: That is correct. 24 Q: And when Mr. Nick Cottrelle gave 25 evidence here, he said about one of these occasions on --


1 on the 5th, he said: 2 "I pulled up in my car and there -- and 3 they were two (2) to three (3) feet 4 away. I could pull up that close to 5 the fence. Kobayashi wasn't saying too 6 much it was more Mark Wright that was 7 doing all the talking. 8 He asked me who the leader was in the 9 camp -- in the Park and I had told him 10 that there was no leader. He said -- 11 he kept asking if there's anybody that 12 he can talk to and I said, Probably 13 not, there's probably nobody he could 14 really talk to. 15 And then he asked if I could just pass 16 that message onto everybody and I said, 17 Yeah and Fair enough and I took off." 18 Now, does that description of 19 communications ring a bell to you? Do you have any 20 recollection of the content of communications between 21 Mark Wright and a First Nations person along those lines? 22 A: I believe that occurred at the 23 Ipperwash, Camp Ipperwash attempt -- attempt to serve. 24 Q: At -- that that discussion occurred? 25 A: Yeah. I believe there -- there was


1 discussion and I couldn't exactly hear it. I was 2 standing back a bit so I didn't exactly hear everything 3 he said. But it sound -- that sounds correct; similar to 4 that. 5 Q: You heard words along those lines? 6 A: Yes, I believe so. 7 Q: Now, you were asked whether -- once 8 the occupation was commenced, if there had been any 9 inquiries made by MNR people regarding the prospect of a 10 burial ground being located in the Park. And you said 11 you were sure files were being searched and that Peter 12 Sturdy was following up and trying to research out the 13 issue. 14 Now, do you know one Dan Elliott? 15 A: That's correct. He was the Native 16 liaison and specialist. 17 Q: And where was he located? 18 A: He was located at Aylmer. 19 Q: And if I can refer to Commission 20 document 1012575, and I understand these are notes of Dan 21 Elliott. And I don't believe these are exhibit yet. 22 And at the second last page of these notes 23 there's a passage that bears the date September 6th, 24 1995. And these notes refer to a... 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: What's the date of that 4 e-mail? 5 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Pardon me. Let me 6 distribute these. I get ahead of myself sometimes. And 7 these notes, I understand, are not an exhibit. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 10 Q: And you'll see on the second last 11 page of these notes there's a number 147 in the upper 12 right corner? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And you'll see that the notes 15 read, towards the top, quote: 16 "09:30 hours receive phone call from 17 Elizabeth Thunder." 18 Unquote. And then it says: 19 "Returned phone call". 20 And you'll see that there's a reference 21 here to: 22 "Tom not supporting the occupation of 23 Ipperwash Park." 24 And then towards the bottom you'll see 25 there's a note beside a -- a circled point saying, quote:


1 "Liz stated that there is no land claim 2 on Ipperwash Provincial Park." 3 Unquote. Now, do you recall it coming to 4 your attention during the -- during September 4th, 5th 5 and 6th period that someone on behalf of the Kettle and 6 Stoney Point Band had confirmed there was no land claim 7 on Ipperwash Provincial Park? 8 A: Not directly to myself. I would 9 assume that would have come from Peter Sturdy or Dan 10 Elliott or Ron Baldwin. 11 Q: So but did someone in the MNR pass 12 that on to you? 13 A: I believe they did. Yes. 14 Q: And then you'll see the next note 15 reads, and I quote: 16 "Past discussions with Elders indicate 17 that, to the best of their knowledge, 18 no burial sites exist in the Park. 19 This will, again, be discussed at a 20 council meeting this evening." 21 Unquote. Now, did that information come 22 to your attention during the September 4th, 5th and 6th 23 period, that -- that someone at Kettle and Stoney Point 24 was saying that Elders indicated there were no burial 25 sites in the Park?


1 A: I don't recollect. 2 Q: Thank you, sir. Just for reference 3 and for future identification, and I appreciate the notes 4 aren't proven, but I'd like to mark this document as an 5 exhibit. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-897, Your Honour. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-897? 8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-897: Document number 1012575. 12 Handwritten notes of Dan Elliott, 13 Sept. 05/'95. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 16 Q: Now, when you were down at the Park, 17 the park area, on the evening of September 4th, did you 18 ever hear anything that sounded like fireworks going off? 19 A: Myself? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: No. 22 Q: When you were in the area of the park 23 on September 5th, did you ever hear anything that sounded 24 like fireworks going off? 25 A: No.


1 Q: Did you know, on September 4th, 5th 2 and 6th, Glen George, to see him? 3 A: Perhaps to see him. 4 Q: Do you recall whether, on the 5 evenings of September 4th, when you were down at the 6 park, you saw Glen George? 7 A: I believe so, yes. 8 Q: Do you recall where you saw him? 9 A: In the group or at the -- at the main 10 gate. 11 Q: Was -- was he -- do you recall 12 whether he was present when the incident with Robert 13 George occurred? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: And is it true that before the 16 occupation commenced there was quite a store of picnic 17 tables that were being kept in the park, in a pile? 18 A: Yes, that's right. 19 Q: About how many were there? 20 A: I don't recollect. But I do know 21 that we replaced the majority of the tables -- old tables 22 with new tables that particular year. 23 Q: Right. So the ones that were stored 24 were the older tables? 25 A: They would have been both new and


1 old. 2 Q: "Both new and old?" 3 A: Yes, that's right. 4 Q: And were they all tables that were 5 suitable for use in the park? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: We've heard some evidence about a 8 mock police chase that was being staged in the park and 9 cars being driven around at fast speeds and kicking up 10 dust and so on by the occupiers, I believe on the 5th or 11 on the 6th. 12 Did you observe that sort of conduct? 13 A: I did not. 14 Q: And I want to ask you a little bit 15 about the -- the Layton Elijah evidence that you have 16 contradicted -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- in your evidence in direct? And 19 in particular do you ever recall having any discussions 20 with Layton Elijah in which you talked to him about 21 personal experiences of yourself of -- of racism? 22 A: I would say I did -- we -- we spoke 23 while we were watching the -- the winterization and he 24 did mention about racism and so forth. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.


1 A: And I believe I did mention to him 2 that yes, that there were times in my life too that I had 3 experienced those types of issues and so forth. 4 Q: Okay. And did you have discussions 5 with him about Mohawk warriors? 6 A: That I don't -- don't recollect. 7 Q: Thanks very much, sir, those are my 8 questions. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much, Mr. Downard. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Mr. 15 Sulman is next. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Mr. Commissioner, 20 good afternoon. 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 23 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Kobayashi. 24 A: Good afternoon. 25 Q: I have just one (1) discrete area of


1 the evidence that I want to discuss with you and that is 2 that one (1) occasion in which Mr. Beaubien visited the 3 Forest command? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: Okay. And you told Ms. Vella about 6 that this morning. You recall that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And we have -- we've learned from 9 previous evidence of Inspector Carson that his evidence 10 is that that meeting occurred on or about 6:30 p.m. on 11 September 6th, okay? And you weren't particularly clear 12 in your evidence to Ms. Vella about a particular date or 13 time, right? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Okay. And having heard that 16 information that Inspector Carson said the meeting 17 occurred about 6:30 p.m. on September 6th can you accept 18 that that was the date and time of the meeting that you 19 referred to this morning? 20 A: If Inspector Carson said it was that 21 time I'm sure it was at that time. 22 Q: Okay. And also when you spoke about 23 that meeting this morning with Ms. Vella you couldn't 24 seem to recall which OPP inspector was present. So maybe 25 I can be of a little assistance there too, okay?


1 A: Sure. 2 Q: I can advise you that Inspector 3 Carson in his evidence indicated that he met with you and 4 Mr. Beaubien and Inspector Linton was present -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- during that time at the Forest 7 Command Centre on September 6th at or about 6:30 p.m. 8 Now, that was the only Forest Command Centre meeting held 9 with Mr. Beaubien prior to September 7th, 1995 in 10 accordance with Mr. -- Inspector Carson -- then Inspector 11 Carson's evidence. 12 With that information can you accept that 13 Inspector -- the inspectors who were present at that 14 September 6th meeting were Linton and Carson? 15 A: I can. 16 Q: Okay. And you gave evidence that at 17 that meeting Mr. Beaubien expressed the public concerns 18 about public safety as a result of the occupation of the 19 Park, correct? 20 A: That is correct. 21 Q: And that in addition to his 22 expression about public safety and concerns I suggest to 23 you that Inspector Carson spoke at that meeting and 24 briefly advised Mr. Beaubien that an injunction was being 25 sought and that the OPP goal was to restrict the


1 occupiers to the Park, to keep them from expanding 2 outside the Park, and generally to keep the peace and 3 maintain the order -- public order. Is that correct? 4 A: I don't recall that to be honest with 5 you. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: But I would assume it would be. 8 Q: Okay. And I suggest to you that Mr. 9 Beaubien at that meeting did not advocate that the OPP 10 take any specific action against the occupiers, correct? 11 A: That is correct. 12 Q: And further I suggest to you that Mr. 13 Beaubien didn't attempt to order the inspectors, that is 14 Linton and Carson, to take any specific action 15 whatsoever, correct? 16 A: That is correct. 17 Q: And he certainly didn't convey any 18 instructions from the Premier, the Minister of Natural 19 Resources, the Attorney General or the Solicitor General 20 or any other elected provincial official on what actions 21 the OPP should take with regard to the persons occupying 22 the Park, correct? 23 A: That is correct. 24 Q: And after Mr. Beaubien left that 25 meeting and you were still -- you had your little office


1 at the -- at the Forest Centre and you were still seeing 2 the OPP Inspectors on a regular basis, correct? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And I suggest to you that after Mr. 5 Beaubien left that single meeting on September 6th, the 6 OPP officers didn't tell you or in anyway convey to you 7 that their plans with regards to the Park were changed or 8 were going to change as a result of Mr. Beaubien's visit, 9 correct? 10 A: That is correct. 11 Q: Thank you, sir. Those are all my 12 questions. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 Ms. Horvat, you weren't here when did the 15 canvassing. Do you have any questions? 16 MS. JAQUELINE HORVAT: I don't have any 17 questions. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 Then Ms. Perschy's next. 20 Good afternoon. 21 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Good afternoon, 22 Commissioner. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 25 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Kobayashi.


1 A: Good afternoon. 2 Q: My name is Anna Perschy and I'm one 3 of the counsel on behalf of Deb Hutton who was at the 4 time the executive assistant to the Premier. 5 I wanted to ask you just a few questions 6 with respect to 1993. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Commission counsel took you to the 9 document which is at Tab 25 of Commission counsel's 10 documents. If you could just turn that up for a moment. 11 This was made Exhibit P-843, I believe it's Inquiry 12 Document Number 1007789. 13 And I believe that you indicated in-chief 14 that this was the MNR plan that was in effect in 1993. 15 Do I have that right? 16 A: That would be document 25? 17 Q: Document at Tab 25, yes. 18 A: I believe that's the Ontario 19 Provincial Police plan. It isn't mine -- ours. 20 Q: So this is the OPP plan then? 21 A: I believe so. The back part of it is 22 an attachment of ours. 23 Q: All right. That's -- that's what I 24 was referring to actually. 25 A: Oh, okay sorry.


1 Q: I'm sorry. The last three (3) pages 2 is entitled 'Ipperwash Provincial Park Enforcement Plan'. 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And I take it that's -- that's the 5 MNR plan that was in effect in 1993? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And -- and I believe you indicated 8 this was the plan that would have been prepared by, was 9 it Brett Hodsdon? 10 A: I believe -- 11 Q: Or do you know? 12 A: -- this was an attachment to Brett 13 Hodsdon's plan. This appears to be a part of our ongoing 14 annual Enforcement Plan versus the Contingency Plan for 15 this particular issue. 16 Q: And as you mentioned the first few 17 pages -- well the first page appears to have a crest of 18 the Ontario Provincial Police and then there's some 19 reference to various sections of the Criminal Code. 20 And -- and I take it that's why you 21 thought initially it was the -- the OPP plan? 22 A: Exactly, yes. 23 Q: And it appears that this document -- 24 well first of all let me back up a second. 25 Did you see this plan with this


1 attachment back in 1993; or do you recall? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: It appears that this document is from 4 the files of the Government of Ontario, this plan plus 5 these -- these initial first few pages. 6 Do you have any information as to whose 7 documents it would have come from? 8 A: The first part? 9 Q: This particular document. The whole 10 thing. 11 A: Oh, the whole thing? I -- I don't, 12 no. 13 Q: But I think you testified there was a 14 fair amount of information sharing between the MNR and 15 the OPP with respect to plans? 16 A: There was, yes, there was. 17 Q: Could you turn to Tab 24 of 18 Commission counsel's documents? That's the Document 19 Number 1007794. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: It's entitled 'Procedure First Nation 22 Claims of Access/Ownership of Pinery/Ipperwash Provincial 23 Parks'. 24 Do you recall seeing this document back in 25 1993?


1 A: I don't recall, no. I may have. 2 There was a lot of documents that was circulating at the 3 time. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: I would suspect this would be a part 8 of the -- Brett Hodsdon's Contingency Plan. 9 Q: And this refers to procedures that 10 should be followed in the event that a Park staff were 11 approached by First Nation representatives -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- with various claims in respect to 14 access or -- or ownership to the Park. 15 Do you know if Park staff were in fact 16 approached by First Nation representatives regarding such 17 claims in this time frame? 18 A: I don't believe so. 19 Q: And if you could turn to Tab 74, 20 Commission Counsel's documents. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: This is an e-mail dated, I believe 23 it's July 2nd, 1993, from Mr. Hodsdon to you, -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- and it states that it attaches the


1 last version of the Emergency Plan. 2 Do you recall receiving this e-mail with 3 the final version of the Plan at this time? 4 A: I did receive the draft Plan; I don't 5 recall the e-mails, but I do recall receiving the draft 6 Plan. 7 Q: This Emergency Plan at Tab 74 is more 8 detailed than -- than the one at Tab 25 which you 9 indicated was -- was consistent with some of the general 10 plans of -- of MNR. 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And under Part II, which is three (3) 13 pages in under the heading, Roles And Responsibilities -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- the Plan refers to the roles and 16 responsibilities: 17 " Once an emergency has been declared 18 and action is required to meet an 19 actual or perceived threat to Park 20 users, and Park staff, by civil 21 disobedience of First Nations pressure 22 groups and/or actual occupation of 23 Ipperwash and Pinery Provincial Parks." 24 And do you recall in 1993, that there were 25 some revisions to the General Plan, if I can put it that


1 -- that way, the -- the Plan at Tab 25, to address the 2 possibility of either civil disobedience and/or actual 3 occupation of Ipperwash or Pinery Provincial Parks? 4 A: Yes. The Contingency Plan that Brett 5 Hodsdon assembled was more for an occupation or a civil 6 disobedience. Our Enforcement Plan was, well the 7 excerpts from our Enforcement Plan were for the day-to- 8 day operations of the Park, and which is a standard plan 9 that we have for all Provincial Parks that, with the 10 specifics of each Park in it. 11 And we -- 12 Q: And that's that Plan at Tab 25 that 13 we looked at previously? 14 A: The -- the last three (3) pages of 15 it, yes. 16 Q: Right. And coming back to the Plan 17 at Tab 74, if you could turn to Part V; Part V sets out a 18 Four (4)-Step Security Plan once the Park's been 19 evacuated. And this 1993 Plan -- Security Plan included, 20 among these various steps, erecting barriers to close off 21 entrance points, setting up signs which indicate that the 22 Park was closed, checking that the buildings are locked 23 and finally, at Step 4, monitoring the Park around the 24 clock for trespassers. 25 Is that consistent with your recollection


1 of what -- the Plan in 1993? 2 A: Yes. 3 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Could we have this 4 document marked as the next exhibit, please? 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With the proviso, 6 please, that the personal information be redacted in the 7 form of the telephone numbers? 8 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Thank you, Ms. Vella. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There are 10 some home numbers, yes. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-898, Your Honour. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-898. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-898: Document number 100991. 15 E-mail to L. Kobayashi from Brett 16 Hodsdon Re: "Emergency Plan Update" 17 and attached last version of the 18 plan titled "Draft Emergency Plan 1 19 -10", July/'93 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 22 Q: And I provided you with a series of 23 documents yesterday, through your Counsel, and I was 24 wondering if you could turn to the first document in that 25 bunch, and that is a document, Document Number 1009544,


1 which is -- he -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I do not 3 have a copy. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It is for the 5 Commissioner, I believe. 6 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: It -- he already has a 7 copy, I believe. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 12 Q: Sorry, I was saying, it's Document 13 Number 1009544, it's an e-mail from Daryl Smith to a 14 distribution list which includes you and the subject 15 heading is, "Ipperwash Update on Question and Answer 16 Package" and the e-mail indicates that it's attaching an 17 updated package and attached to this e-mail is actually a 18 verbal response manual, Ipperwash Provincial Park/Stony 19 Point People's issue. 20 Do you recall receiving this e-mail and a 21 draft verbal response manual in or around July of 1993? 22 A: I do. 23 Q: And with respect to the factual 24 information that's contained in this verbal response 25 manual to your knowledge was that information accurate?


1 A: I thought so. 2 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Commissioner, this -- 3 this appears to be the same document as that which was 4 previously made an exhibit, this is just a slightly 5 better copy. 6 And my recollection is the -- the 7 previous version first page, half of it was cut off so I 8 propose to make this since it's a better copy as -- as 9 the next exhibit? 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's fine. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-899, Your Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-899. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-899: Document number 1009544. 16 E-mail from Daryl Smith to 17 Distribution List Re: Ipperwash 18 Update on Question and Answer 19 Package, July 21/93 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 22 Q: And I take it that the purpose of 23 this verbal response manual was to anticipate inquiries 24 from the public or the media and provide some factual 25 information in order to respond to any such inquiries?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And do you recall if your staffed -- 3 if your -- sorry, if your staff used this verbal response 4 manual in responding to inquiries? 5 A: This actual manual was to be used by 6 the communications officers Daryl Smith and Terry Crabe 7 and any other spokesperson for the Park. And it really 8 wasn't given -- given to any of the gate staff or the 9 other temporary staff that we had on. It was more for 10 the -- the spokes people for the Park. 11 Q: And do you have any information as to 12 whether or not they in fact used this manual in 13 responding to inquiries or do you have any information in 14 that regard? 15 A: I -- I believe that Terry Crabe was 16 our communications person and Terry would certainly have 17 gotten this and this is what he would have used to -- to 18 speak to the media and speak to any interested parties. 19 Q: Okay. Thank you very much. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, we're going to move a couple -- 24 a couple of years ahead, for -- to 1995. 25 We've heard evidence from Inspector Carson


1 as he then was that he met with you, Don Matheson, and 2 Marcel Beaubien at the gates to the Park on July 30th at 3 eleven o'clock in the morning and that it was discussed 4 at that time that if there was an occupation of the Park 5 that MNR would be required to seek an injunction. 6 Do -- do you recall having that meeting or 7 having that discussion? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: But do you recall being made aware in 10 and around that time frame that in the event of an 11 occupation OPP would want MNR to seek an injunction? 12 A: That is correct. 13 Q: Could you turn to the next document 14 in your vanilla folder, it's a letter from James Kendik; 15 it's Document Number 3000405. The letter's dated April 16 3rd, 2002. 17 A: Which document -- sorry, which 18 document was this? 19 Q: It -- it's a letter from James Kendik 20 dated -- I believe it's April 3rd, 2002. I believe it's 21 Document Number 3000405? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I'm still uncertain which document


1 this is I'm suppose to be looking for. 2 Q: I think it's maybe the one before 3 that actually. 4 A: Oh yes, yeah. 5 Q: And attached to it, it encloses an 6 index of translations of some handwritten notes and 7 there's actually an excerpt from this -- from this 8 document number. I've only included Tab 16 and according 9 to the index, those are the notes of Ed Vervoort. I'm 10 not sure if I'm pronouncing his name correctly. 11 A: Vervoort. 12 Q: Thank you very much. And if you 13 could turn to the first page of those notes, did you have 14 an opportunity to -- to review this document? 15 A: Yes, I have. 16 Q: We -- we heard evidence that there 17 was a meeting among you, Ron Baldwin, Dan Elliott, Daryl 18 Smith, Peter Sturdy, Ed Vervoort and Mr. Baldwin's 19 assistant Sherry. 20 And these notes refer to such a meeting. 21 And I'm wondering if these notes assist you at all in -- 22 in recalling that there was a meeting among some of the 23 MNR staff on September 1st, 1995? 24 A: Yes. I believe we had this meeting 25 in Aylmer.


1 Q: And do you recall having a discussion 2 because these notes refer to a question as to what does 3 OPP expect of MNR in an occupation? Check with Inspector 4 Carson (London). And do you recall having a discussion 5 along those lines? 6 A: I do not. 7 Q: Now you testified that you, Peter 8 Sturdy, Ron Baldwin and Ed Vervoort met with Inspector 9 Carson on September 1st, 1995. Correct? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And you testified that you recalled 12 at that meeting, I believe you indicated that it was in 13 the basement, that you saw a reference to negotiations on 14 the blackboard. 15 A: I did so. 16 Q: And we've heard evidence from 17 Inspector Carson that in referring to negotiations in the 18 OPP plans with respect to Ipperwash, that was not 19 intended to mean substantive negotiations dealing with 20 the underlying issues. 21 And I take it from communications that you 22 had with Inspector Carson direct and indirectly, you 23 understood that the OPP wasn't planning on getting into 24 substantive negotiations to address the underlying 25 issues.


1 A: That is correct. That was just a -- 2 a -- what I thought was a theme or a motto really. You 3 know, resolution through peaceful negotiations which 4 really tells the story of what they were trying to do, I 5 thought. 6 Q: Fair enough. And turning back to the 7 typed version of the handwritten notes, there's a further 8 reference to a strategy meeting on September 1st, MNR 9 held strategy meeting. And the third bullet indicates: 10 "Identify MNR role if takeover occurs 11 while Park closed." 12 And then the fourth bullet: 13 "What did OPP expect of MNR/rapid 14 injunction." 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Do you recall that that's an 17 understanding that you had on September 1st following the 18 meeting with Inspector Carson that OPP expected MNR to 19 rapidly seek and obtain an injunction? 20 A: That's what I understood. 21 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Commissioner, I know 22 these handwritten notes or these typed up versions of the 23 handwritten haven't been proven but since I've made 24 reference to them I was wondering if they could be made 25 the next exhibit for reference purposes?


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I suppose. 2 They're Ed Vervoort's notes? 3 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Sorry? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They're Ed 5 Vervoort's notes are they? 6 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Yes. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-900. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-900: Document number 3000405 10 Maynard George et al V. Harris et 11 al. " Answers to Undertakings" (Her 12 Majesty the Queen) April 03/'02 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 15 Q: And you testified with respect to 16 this meeting on September 1st, that the meeting with 17 Inspector Carson, among other things, was to ensure that 18 plans were in place if an occupation occurred and that 19 the Trespass Notice would be ready to go? 20 A: That is correct. 21 Q: Did you understand -- was it your 22 understanding that the -- the Trespass Notice and the 23 serving of that Notice was connected with -- with seeking 24 an injunction? 25 A: Yes, I did.


1 Q: And if you could turn to Tab 131 of 2 Commission Counsel's documents. These are the scribed 3 notes, and for the assistance of My Friends who are 4 referring to P-426, which is also the scribed notes, it's 5 Tab 1, page 3 of those notes, the entry at 21:45 on the 6 evening of September 4th. 7 And for you, Mr. Kobayashi, it would be, I 8 believe at Tab 131, page -- page 3 of the notes. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: The entry at 21:45. The entry 11 begins: 12 "Les Kobayashi arrived, briefed on 13 costs and Mark Wright, getting TPA...;" 14 Is that a reference to Trespass and 15 Property Act? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: "getting Trespass to Property Act 18 letters and signs - signs posted get 19 injunction." 20 Do you recall, was it you making those 21 comments, or was that someone else? 22 A: I believe it was myself. 23 Q: And then the next reference in the 24 scribed notes indicates, quote: 25 "John Carson advised. Let's let them


1 refuse to leave, then we will get Court 2 Injunction." 3 Close quote. 4 And again, is that something that you said 5 or is that something that Inspector Carson said, or do 6 you recall? 7 A: That would have been something 8 Inspector Carson would have said. 9 Q: And then Commission Counsel to repeat 10 some of the other references, so I'll skip over those. 11 And then below that we have the reference, quote: 12 "Les Kobayashi, if we serve tonight, 13 Peter can work on injunction;" 14 Closed quote. And, again, is that a 15 comment that you recall making? 16 A: I believe so. 17 Q: And do I take it that the reason for 18 serving the Notice that night was so that work could move 19 ahead in terms of getting the injunction? 20 A: Exactly. 21 Q: And if you could turn to Tab 133 of 22 Commission Counsel's documents. This is Document Number 23 1008117, it's an e-mail from Dan Elliott, dated September 24 4th, 1995, at 9:05 p.m. and the subject matter is, 25 Ipperwash Situation, September 4th, 2100 hours.


1 And it appears that you're on -- on the 2 Distribution List; do you recall receiving this -- this 3 e-mail? 4 A: Not on the night of the 4th, perhaps 5 not until sometime during the 5th when my computer was 6 set up at the Command Centre. 7 Q: But at -- at some point you -- you 8 recall receiving it? 9 A: I believe I must have received it, 10 yes. 11 Q: And on the 2nd page, there's the 12 reference: 13 "Peter arranging for Court Injunction 14 first thing Tuesday morning." 15 And that's similar to the reference that 16 -- that we saw from the scribed notes. 17 Is this a reference to Peter Sturdy? 18 A: It's a reference to Peter Sturdy, 19 yes. 20 Q: And I take it that was consistent 21 with your understanding at the time? 22 A: Yes, it was. 23 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: I believe that this 24 document's previously been made an exhibit. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm not -- I'm not sure


1 about that. 2 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Well, if not, I would 3 ask, could this document be marked as the next exhibit? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it 5 already an exhibit, does anybody know? 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I don't believe it is 7 an exhibit. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I stand to be 10 corrected. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Millar is just 13 checking, Your Honour. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 18 Q: In the interim I'll move on. Sir, if 19 you could turn to Tab 136 of Commission Counsel's 20 documents? 21 A: Yes? 22 Q: This is Inquiry Document Number 23 1006390. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, it's not an 25 exhibit.


1 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: The -- the previous 2 document? 3 THE REGISTRAR: The previous document. 4 1008117, P-901. 5 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Thank you. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-901: Document number 1008117. 8 E- mail to L. Kobayashi et al from 9 Dan Elliott Re: "Ipperwash 10 Situation 95/09/'04 21:00 hr." 11 Sept. 04/'95. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 14 Q: So turning back to the document at 15 Tab 136, the e-mail from Peter Sturdy dated September 16 5th, 1995 at 6:56 a.m., Inquiry Document Number 1006390 17 which is entitled, "Urgent Ipperwash Provincial Park 18 Occupation Status Report Number 1." 19 Now, I appreciate you mentioned that you 20 weren't getting your e-mails until some time on September 21 5th. Do you recall receiving this e-mail? 22 A: I don't recall that, no. 23 Q: And you're not on the distribution 24 list, correct. But in this e-mail Mr. Sturdy provided a 25 summary of events on September 4th and I take it that's


1 consistent with your recollection as to what occurred on 2 that -- on that day? 3 A: I believe so. 4 Q: And on the second page there are 5 references to the briefing on September 1st from 6 Inspector Carson and I was wondering if you could take a 7 moment just to review that because I was going to ask you 8 if that was consistent with your recollection of that 9 briefing. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: It appears to be accurate, yes. 14 Q: Okay. Thank you, sir. And I believe 15 this document has previously been marked as an exhibit. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm not sure it has. 17 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: You're not sure? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think it -- 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: P-782. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 782? Thank you. 21 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Thank you. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does


1 somebody want to say it for the record? 782, is that 2 what I heard? 3 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: P-782, yes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's under a different 7 -- Inquiry Document Number. 8 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: But I take it -- 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's the same document, 10 just a different Inquiry document number. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: I'm advised it's also 13 P-718 so I won't -- I won't try to make it an exhibit 14 again. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 19 Q: If you could turn back to the scribe 20 notes again which were at Tab 131 and for the assistance 21 of my colleagues it's P-426. I'm now looking at the 22 entry on September 5th which is at page 21 at 8:34. 23 A: Yes? 24 Q: And at 8:34 there's a reference, 25 quote:


1 "Les Kobayashi, MNR, talked to lawyer. 2 Waiting for injunction." 3 Do -- do you recall making a comment along 4 these lines? 5 A: I believe that that would be 6 accurate, yes. 7 Q: And do you recall speaking to a 8 lawyer around this time? 9 A: I spoke to a couple of lawyers, yes, 10 either Tim McCabe or Liz Christie, yes. 11 Q: And that's what you believe this 12 reference is in regards to? 13 A: I believe so, yes. 14 Q: And if you could now turn to Tab 134 15 of Commission counsel's documents. This is Document 16 Number 1012250, it's an e-mail from Daryl Smith on 17 September 4th, 1995 at 1:07 p.m. and the subject matter 18 is,"Ipperwash questions and answers, addition Alexis." 19 And you're on the distribution list. 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: The e-mail attaches a first run 22 through of communications material and asks that it be 23 reviewed. 24 Do you recall receiving the communication 25 material at around 1:07 on September 4th, 1995?


1 A: I don't recall if I opened this file 2 at that particular time on September 4th. We were -- I 3 wasn't just stuck at my desk, I was operating a Park at 4 Pinery and Ipperwash, so I would assume that I would have 5 been busy running around as well. 6 And I just don't recall opening it at that 7 particular time. 8 Q: But would you have opened it at some 9 time on the 4th? This is prior to the occupation, or do 10 you recall? 11 A: I don't recall if I did or it was on 12 the 5th once I got my computer set up at the command 13 post. 14 Q: But at some point on either the 4th 15 or the 5th you would have -- you would have reviewed it? 16 A: I did so, yes. 17 Q: And I take it again this is a 18 response manual and it provides some factual information. 19 I -- I take it that, from your knowledge, at least, the 20 factual information contained in this -- in this response 21 manual was accurate at the time? 22 A: I believe so, yes. 23 Q: And now if you could turn to one of 24 the documents in the package that I provided to you. 25 This is another e-mail from Daryl Smith. It's Document


1 Number 1012269. This one dated September 5th, 1995 at 2 2:59 p.m. and the subject now is, "Ipperwash questions 3 and answers, addition, Bertha." 4 And do you recall receiving -- 5 A: Oh yes. 6 Q: -- this e-mail? Again you're on the 7 distribution list. 8 A: If it was e-mailed to me I'm sure I - 9 - I received it. 10 Q: And I take it there's some additions 11 in this revised version in terms of some further factual 12 information. 13 Do I take it that the factual information 14 contained in this response manual, from your -- from your 15 knowledge, was accurate at the time? 16 A: Yes. 17 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: And Commissioner I 18 believe this document was also previously made an 19 exhibit. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Exhibit P-818. 21 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Thank you, Commission 22 counsel. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 25 Q: And the response manual indicates an


1 intention to work closely with OPP information personnel. 2 And, from your knowledge, did MNR and OPP communication 3 people work side by side during -- during the -- the 4 events of September 4th through the 6th? 5 A: I believe so, yes. 6 Q: And we've heard evidence at this 7 Inquiry that Inspector Carson spoke to Doug Babbitt who 8 was the OPP communication person at around 9:00 a.m on 9 September 5th and indicated that MNR was going to pursue 10 a court injunction and that was okay to communicate that. 11 Were you aware that the OPP had -- had 12 approved the release of that information on the morning 13 of the 5th? 14 A: I don't believe so. 15 Q: And did you know that such 16 information had been provided to the media on September 17 5th? 18 A: At some point I -- I'm sure I would 19 have got a copy of the communication, the media release. 20 Q: Did you hear or see any of the media 21 reports on September 5th about pursuing an injunction? 22 A: Not to my recollection, but I'm sure 23 it would have been passed across my desk. 24 Q: And do you recall anything about the 25 MNR Deputy Minister's Office being upset about media


1 being advised prematurely, that the Province was going to 2 be seeking an injunction? 3 A: I wasn't involved in those 4 discussions at all. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And just for the 6 record, Tab 134 was Exhibit P-817. 7 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Thank you, 8 Commissioner -- thank you, Commission Counsel. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 11 Q: Finally, if you could turn to Tab 214 12 of Commission Counsel's documents, this is Inquiry 13 Document Number 1008178, I believe it was marked as 14 Exhibit P-895. 15 These are the Minutes of that meeting on 16 February 1st, 1996, sort of regarding the review that -- 17 that, I take it was MNR that conducted this review? Was 18 it MNR staff? 19 A: As -- as far as I know, yes. Yes. 20 Q: I notice that there are references in 21 this document -- I don't have the page reference, but I 22 notice that there are references in this document to, oh 23 yes, it's under Heading 6, The Roles and Responsibilities 24 of MNR, that their references to the negotiation -- 25 negotiating the winterization of Ipperwash with OPP and


1 the peacekeepers. 2 And do I take it that this review covered 3 a time frame, sort of prior to the occupation, right 4 through to November and -- November and December of 1995? 5 A: I would assume so, yes. 6 Q: Now, Commission Counsel took you to 7 Part IV and the reference there to a change that took 8 place at the Centre on how this crisis was handled, and 9 that the Interministerial Committee was replaced by the 10 Deputy's Committee. 11 Did you have any knowledge that -- that 12 this change that the replacement by the Deputy's 13 Committee, that that took place after the events of 14 September 6th? 15 A: I had no knowledge about that at all. 16 Q: Fair enough. 17 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Commissioner, those 18 are all of my documents, thank you, sorry, all of my 19 questions and all of my documents. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Ms. Perschy. 22 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Thank you, Mr. 23 Kobayashi. 24 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we


1 will take a break now. We will take an afternoon break 2 now. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 4 for fifteen (15) minutes. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 2:57 p.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 3:15 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed. Please be seated. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 12 Tuck-Jackson...? 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon, 14 Mr. Commissioner. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 17 Q: Mr. Kobayashi, my name is Andrea 18 Tuck-Jackson. I'm going to ask you some questions on 19 behalf of the OPP. 20 You've testified over the course of the 21 past two (2) days as to your certain observations of John 22 Carson's approach to dealing with the issue of the 23 occupation. 24 And just to sum it up, I trust, sir, you'd 25 agree with me that he left you with the clear impression,


1 right from the organizational stage back on September 2 1st, that negotiation in order to defuse the situation 3 was going to play a key role from his perspective? 4 A: Most definitely. 5 Q: "Most definitely." And I gather, 6 sir, he made it clear to you, both in terms of his -- his 7 words and his actions that during the course of the 8 actual occupation he was hoping to open a dialogue with 9 the occupants? 10 A: Most certainly. 11 Q: He was also hoping to do everything 12 he could to identify a spokesperson? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And finally, he was doing everything 15 that he could, from what you could observe, to ascertain 16 what there demands were? 17 A: That is correct. 18 Q: And secondly, sir, I'm going to 19 suggest to you that from, again, the planning stage right 20 through to the course of the occupation itself, he left 21 you with the clear impression that he, as the Commander 22 of the OPP at that site, was not going to move on the 23 park occupants in the absence of an injunction? 24 A: That is correct. 25 Q: Thank you. You were asked, sir,


1 about your impressions of the situation at the park upon 2 your departure on the evening of September 6th. 3 And I trust, sir, that from what you have 4 told us today that your impression as you left that day 5 was that the officers were going to contain the situation 6 in the park while they waited for the injunction process 7 to play itself out the following day? 8 A: That is correct. 9 Q: Thank you. I'd like to move on then, 10 if I could, to Mark Wright. And, in particular, sir, I'd 11 like you to turn to Tab 139 in your book. It's document 12 1012263 under a different document number 1009251, it was 13 marked at Exhibit P-819. 14 And I understand, Mr. Kobayashi, that this 15 document, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, was 16 authored by Dan Elliott; does that accord with your 17 recollection or does that, having reviewed it, make sense 18 from the content that's contained in it? 19 A: That appears to be true. 20 Q: All right. And you'll note, sir, 21 towards the middle of the page, it appears to capture 22 your trip to the front gate of Camp Ipperwash on 23 September 5th; do you see that paragraph? It's five (5) 24 or six (6) paragraphs in. 25 A: At -- at Camp Ipperwash?


1 Q: Yes. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: The Base itself? 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: Do you see that, there are two (2) 6 paragraphs in particular, they set out some, if not all 7 of the exchange between those of you who went down to the 8 camp gate and Bert Manning? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: All right. Now, is it reasonable for 11 us to assume that Mr. Elliott would have received this 12 information as to what transpired at that gate, from you? 13 A: Not necessarily, it could have come 14 from Ed Vervoort as well, who was at the Command Post 15 when I was away. 16 Q: All right. I'm going to ask you to 17 keep your -- your finger, though, at this document, 18 because it might assist you in refreshing your 19 recollection as to what transpired at the gate. And I 20 can tell you, sir, that I anticipate we're going to hear 21 evidence, both from Mark Wright and an officer by the 22 name of Brad Seltzer -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- as to what took place that day at 25 the gate.


1 And you told us earlier that -- and if I'm 2 wrong again, I'd like you to correct me, that you weren't 3 entirely sure if Brad Seltzer accompanied you to the 4 gate? 5 A: I'm not quite sure, yes. 6 Q: Do you know who Brad Seltzer is? 7 A: I recognize the name, but I met so 8 many people at that particular point in time I -- I -- 9 it'd be hard -- difficult for me to put a face to the 10 name. 11 Q: I understand. Would it jog your 12 recollection if I told you that I understand he was a 13 negotiator for the OPP? 14 A: Still it'd be very difficult for me 15 to put a face to the name, but I do recognize the name 16 Brad Seltzer. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: When you and Mark Wright, and as I -- 20 as I suspect, it's a non-contentious point, Brad Seltzer 21 went down to the gate. 22 Would you have any reason to disagree with 23 me that Bert Manning communicated that the Elders weren't 24 ready to talk at that point, about the issue of the 25 occupation?


1 A: I wouldn't disagree with you. 2 Q: Would you have any reason to disagree 3 that he also conveyed that he, Bert Manning, really 4 didn't know who could talk on behalf of the occupiers? 5 A: That sounds reasonable. 6 Q: Would you have any reason to disagree 7 that Bert Manning expressed a certain pleasure, that they 8 the occupiers, had Stony Point back? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And would you have any reason to 11 disagree, sir, that Mark Wright conveyed to Mr. Manning, 12 at least verbally, that the occupiers were trespassing on 13 the Park? 14 A: I believe that occurred. 15 Q: And, sir, would you have any reason 16 to disagree that Mark Wright conveyed to Mr. Manning that 17 he understood that the MNR was going to be applying for a 18 Court injunction, in relation to the activity? 19 A: That -- that occurred. 20 Q: And would you have any reason to 21 disagree, sir, that Mark Wright went one (1) step further 22 and actually told Mr. Manning that his group would be 23 entitled to make representations at that Hearing? 24 A: I don't recollect that, but it's -- 25 it's reasonable that he did, yes.


1 Q: Thank you. And, sir, would you have 2 any reason to disagree with me that Mr. Manning expressed 3 concern about the presence of the checkpoints, or they're 4 sometimes referred to as road blocks, and that he wanted 5 them removed? 6 A: I do recollect something of that 7 nature, yes. 8 Q: All right. Thank you very much. 9 Fair to say, sir, that -- that during your efforts to 10 serve the trespass notice on the night of the 4th, the 11 early morning of the 5th, and again your efforts in 12 conjunction with Mark Wright to attend at the Park, later 13 at the gate, that it was clear to you by the words and 14 the actions of the people on the other side of the fence, 15 if I can put it that way, that they were giving you the 16 impression that they did not want to talk? 17 A: That is correct. 18 Q: Thank you. You mentioned, sir, that 19 when you attended Court on the morning of September the 20 7th -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- you missed a little bit of what 23 transpired in Court because you actually fell asleep, not 24 surprisingly? 25 A: Most certainly, yes.


1 Q: All right. We've heard some evidence 2 that Mark Wright also was showing signs of extreme 3 fatigue that morning? 4 A: That is correct. 5 Q: Thank you. So you don't disagree 6 that he also appeared to be quite exhausted that morning? 7 A: I would say he was very exhausted, 8 yes. 9 Q: Thank you. And, sir, if I could take 10 you to Tab 164 of your materials, it's been marked as 11 Exhibit P-795. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: This in essence, I understand it, 14 sir, is a summary of a briefing that you had on or around 15 September the 14th, 1995 with senior members of the OPP. 16 And you were asked questions earlier about 17 the tenure of the approach that the command staff were 18 taking at this particular stage, in other words, the -- 19 the post shooting stage, if I can put it that way. 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: And I trust, sir, that in the days 22 following the unfortunate event of September the 6th, 23 that you had a number of meetings with either 24 Superintendent Parkin and/or Chief Superintendent Coles. 25 A: That is correct.


1 Q: And would it be fair to say, sir, 2 that during the course of your contact with those two (2) 3 officers, their words and their actions again suggested 4 an intent on their part to de-escalate the situation? 5 A: Most certainly. 6 Q: And I trust, sir, that the contact 7 that you had with Chief Coles in particular, where he was 8 cautioning you about what information ought to be sent up 9 your chain of authority, did that appear to you to be 10 consistent with the desire on his part to de-escalate the 11 situation? 12 A: Most certainly. 13 Q: Mr. Kobayashi, those are my 14 questions, thank you for your time. 15 A: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much, Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 18 Mr. Roland...? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 23 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Kobayashi. My 24 name is Ian Roland and I appear on behalf of the Ontario 25 Provincial Police Association.


1 A: Good afternoon. 2 Q: I have a few questions for you. I'm 3 -- I'm going to provide you with a bundle of documents. 4 They're titled, "Park Complaint and Occurrence Report" -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- and ask you if you recognize those 7 documents as the documents that are kept or were kept as 8 part of the normal business records of the park at 9 Ipperwash in the summer of 1995. 10 A: Yes. These are the Park Complaint 11 and Occurrence Reports that we use. And looking at some 12 of the signatures, they were our officers, yes. 13 Q: Yes. And could you look through them 14 and just identify them as those being the records that 15 you recognize as the normal business records kept at the 16 Park that summer? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 For the benefit of my colleagues, let me 21 go through the documents so that I could give them the 22 numbers and the document numbers and he can identify 23 them. I propose to have these marked, as a set, as one 24 exhibit. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Some of them


1 appear to be notes from a notebook. So you could just -- 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: But I think -- I 3 understand were part of the record. 4 From time to time were the notebook 5 entries made as part of the record? 6 THE WITNESS: They were so. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 12 Q: All right. Let me if I could, then, 13 mark this is an exhibit, the next exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-902, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-902: Series of Park complaint 17 occurrence reports: Document number 18 1008080 - Book number 55 - May 19 27/'95; document number 1008066 - 20 Book number 131A and number 131B - 21 July 10/95; document number 1008065 22 - Book 133 - July 12/95; document 23 number 1008061 - Book 183/183A/183B 24 - July 19/'95; document number 25 1008060 - Book 2078 - July 26/'95;


1 document number 1008051 - Book 264 2 -Aug. 07/'95; document number 3 1008034 - Book 307 - Aug. 27/'95; 4 document number 1008033 - Book 314 5 - Aug. 31/'95. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 8 Q: And to identify it properly. The 9 first in the series, and I have them chronologically, is 10 occurrence of Book Number 55 dated May 27 '95. And for 11 the assistance of My Friends, that is Document Number 12 1008080. 13 And I take it, Mr. Kobayashi, this 14 document, as others, was prepared by either a park warden 15 or employee on the day in question, set out in the 16 occurrence report? 17 A: That is correct. 18 Q: The next one is Occurrence Book 19 Number 131(a) dated July 10, 1995. And for My Friends 20 assistance, that's Document 1008066. And that's a two 21 (2) page document, the second page is 131(b) and then 22 there's some notes attached; is that correct? 23 A: That is correct. 24 Q: The next one is occurrence book 25 number 133 dated July 12, 1995, document number 1008065.


1 The next document in the series is 183 dated July 19, 2 1995 and I'm sorry I don't have a document number for 3 that. 4 But that is -- we can provide that in due 5 course. That's -- appears to be a three (3) page 6 document. The first page is -- is identified as 183, the 7 second page 183A and the third page 183B; is that 8 correct, Mr. Kobayashi? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: The next is occurrence book number 11 207B dated July 26th, '95 and it's -- the document number 12 for it is 1008060. 13 Next occurrence book number 264 dated 14 August 7, '95 with the document number being 1008051. 15 Next occurrence book number 307, dated 16 August 27, '95, document 1008034. 17 And, finally, the last one, occurrence 18 book number 314 dated August 31, '95 being document 19 number 1008033. 20 And as I understand it from your evidence, 21 Mr. Kobayashi, these are records that were kept in the 22 log book and also reviewed by you periodically, either 23 that day or weekly, as you looked at the log book and 24 then forwarded on to your superiors? 25 A: That is correct.


1 Q: Now, let me take you to, if I could 2 then, to some occurrence reports from the database of OPP 3 occurrence reports of incidents that occurred in August 4 and September 1995. 5 We haven't been able to find corresponding 6 incident reports prepared by your staff as part of the 7 log records. But let me ask you if, on looking at these, 8 if these assist you to recall this incidents that 9 occurred, if I could? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And the first one is dated August 7, 14 '95. It's document number 1012161 and you will see, Mr. 15 Kobayashi, that it refers to an incident on the beach 16 that you may have already spoken to. 17 Does this appear to be an incident that 18 you were familiar with, either having learned from your 19 staff or the OPP? 20 A: Which document was it? I'm sorry. 21 Q: Sorry. It's the one dated August 7, 22 '95 at the top? 23 A: Oh yes. Yes. 24 Q: And it speaks of an incident that 25 occurred on the beach?


1 A: That's right. We do have this one in 2 our occurrence book, I believe. 3 Q: It is? We couldn't find -- maybe it 4 is in your occurrence book. I wasn't sure whether it was 5 the same one. You think this is in your occurrence book? 6 A: I believe so. 7 Q: All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: At any event, are you familiar with 12 this incident? Do you recall it? 13 A: I recall this incident. 14 Q: Can we mark that as the next exhibit? 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sure. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: That's P-901. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-903. 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: 03, sorry. 19 THE REGISTRAR: And what's the document 20 number again? 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's an OPP incident 22 report dated August 7/95, at the top the -- the document 23 number is 1012161. 24 THE REGISTRAR: 2161. Thank you. 25


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-903: Document number 1012161 2 OPP Incident Report, Aug. 07/'95 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 5 Q: Let's go to the next one which is 6 dated August 19/95. It's Document Number 1012161 as 7 well. And you'll see it involves an incident in which it 8 -- it said that three (3) native youths were in the top 9 of a building and threw rocks on an -- on an individual's 10 car northbound on Army -- Army Camp Road past the main 11 entrance to the Army Camp. 12 A: I don't recall this. 13 Q: You don't recall this incident? 14 A: No. No, I don't. 15 Q: Okay. And finally a document dated 16 September 4/95, again an OPP incident report, being again 17 Document Number 1012161. 18 If you could just review that and let me 19 know if this is an indicate that you were familiar with 20 or was brought to your attention. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: This one does sound familiar, yes. 25 Q: Mark that as the next exhibit.


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-904, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-904: Document number 1012161 4 OPP Incident Report, Sept. 04/95. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: Mr. Kobayashi, let me, if I could 8 then, take you to the altercation that occurred at the 9 Park at the time of the initial takeover in which you 10 were present as you've told us. 11 And officer Korosec was present as well? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You knew him? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I think you've told us that he 16 was acting in a -- in a way to try and diffuse the 17 situation? 18 A: Yes, he was. 19 Q: Was he calm and non-confrontational 20 in his manner? 21 A: Yes, he was. 22 Q: And was he in -- in such a manner 23 when he was speaking with Judas George? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And do I understand that Mr. George


1 was yelling and cursing at him nonetheless? 2 A: That is correct. 3 Q: And is it also so that none of the 4 officers present were behaving in a confrontational 5 manner with the Park occupants? 6 A: That is correct. 7 Q: And do you recall more than one (1) 8 flare being thrown in the direction of the police 9 officers? You've told us one (1) flare. 10 A: I believe it was one (1) flare. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: My -- I'd have to go to my -- or have 13 -- have my memory refreshed, but I do recall the one (1) 14 flare hitting Constable Parks in the back actually, I 15 believe. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Bouncing off him and -- but I would 18 have to go to my -- refresh my memory for sure. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: All right. If you can go to Tab 132, 23 it's Exhibit P-879. At the very bottom of the first page 24 you will see three (3) lines up you begin, "I observed -- 25 A: Hmm hmm.


1 Q: The very first page, "I observed -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- what appeared to be flares thrown 4 amongst us." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Does that -- 7 A: There was more than one (1) flare. 8 Q: -- help you to refresh your memory? 9 A: Yes. Yes, it does. 10 Q: And apart from Judas George did it 11 appear that other persons in the Park were intoxicated or 12 showing the effects of drinking alcohol? 13 A: I don't recollect, to be honest with 14 you. 15 Q: Let -- let me take you to the service 16 of the notice on September the 6th. 17 You indicated that there was a level of 18 hostility directed towards you and to Officer Vince 19 George when you attempted to serve -- serve the Trespass 20 Notice? 21 A: Yes, I don't believe that was the 6th 22 though. 23 Q: Sorry, was that on the -- on the 7th? 24 A: The 4th, I believe. 25 Q: 4th. 4th. I'm sorry, the 4th.


1 A: Yes. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The 4th or the 5th, 3 between midnight and 1:00 I thought. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. Sorry, I've 5 got my dates wrong. Is it -- it's on -- 6 THE WITNESS: Now you're confusing me. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I believe the evidence 9 was that it was between midnight and 1:00 in the morning 10 on the 5th. 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, so it would be the 5th 12 then, yes. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, okay, sorry. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's right, yeah. 15 Midnight on the 4th. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 18 Q: And did you or did Vince George, as 19 far as you're aware and observed, say anything or do 20 anything that would provoke a level of -- of hostility 21 amongst the occupiers? 22 A: No, not at all. 23 Q: Now, in a number of the documents 24 that have been provided by Commission Counsel there's 25 reference to you being in contact with Les Jewel


1 following the events of September the 6th, 1995, that you 2 met with him on a few occasions with respect to the 3 winterization of the Park facilities. 4 This is in Tab 192, 194 and 197, that 5 that's referred to. 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: Did you know Les Jewel before you 8 dealt with him for the purpose of the winterization of 9 the Park? 10 A: I -- I believe he was pointed out to 11 me a couple of times, but I didn't know him personally. 12 Q: All right. And then dealing with him 13 through the winterization of the Park, how did he 14 represent himself, or what did you understand his role 15 was in dealing with him? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: You don't recall? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: And so you don't -- you didn't -- or 20 you at least don't recall his involvement or role at the 21 time that you were dealing with him? 22 A: I don't recollect. I'm sorry. 23 Q: Okay. Thank you, those are my 24 questions. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Roland.


1 I think Ms. Clermont. Ms. Clermont on 2 behalf of the Municipality. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JANET CLERMONT: 7 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Kobayashi? 8 A: How are you? 9 Q: My name is Janet Clermont, and I'm 10 one (1) of the counsel representing the Municipality of 11 Lambton Shores. 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: And I wanted to take you to Tab 214 14 of Commission Counsel documents, and for the record 15 that's document 1008178, Exhibit P-895. 16 And that was regarding a meeting held 17 February 2nd, 1996 at the Toronto Airport Hilton? 18 A: Okay. Yes. 19 Q: And I wanted you to turn to page 3, 20 number 3, Crisis Communications? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And it looks like this paragraph is 23 attributed to John McCue (phonetic)? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Can you tell me who that individual


1 is? 2 A: To be honest with you, I can't. 3 Q: Was he -- 4 A: I can't recall, he was a -- 5 Q: An MNR person? 6 A: -- he was participating in this, but 7 I -- I don't recall. 8 Q: Was he an MNR person? 9 A: That I don't know either. 10 Q: Okay. And it looks like, from the 11 first point, that he reviewed the need for crisis 12 communication both internally and externally. And do you 13 -- do you recall anything about that -- 14 A: I don't -- 15 Q: -- that meeting? 16 A: -- I don't recollect. No, I'm sorry. 17 Q: And the third point indicates: 18 "MNR good at dealing with clients, 19 interest groups, et cetera, and that 20 helps in a crisis, but in most cases 21 MNR's community liaison is lacking." 22 And do you know what that -- what he was 23 referring to there? 24 A: I believe he was referring to the 25 context that we, at the local level, if you will, of the


1 Ministry, had with the Municipalities and different 2 interest groups in the area. That's what I assume -- 3 would assume that would mean. 4 Q: And did he give any indication as to 5 what was lacking in -- in this liaison, that you can 6 recall? 7 A: I -- I just don't recall. 8 Q: All right. And if you could turn to 9 page 4, the next page under number 5, "Comments -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: "Comments and questions raised." And 12 again, John M. right beside his comment, now I'm assuming 13 that's still John McCue: 14 "From CSB's perspective..." 15 And I'm just going to stop there. Do you 16 know what CSB stands for? 17 A: Communication Services Branch. 18 Q: Okay. 19 "Ipperwash is not a classic example on 20 how to deal with crisis communications, 21 there were too many spokespersons, 22 initially." 23 And -- and can you recall what he was 24 referring to in this -- in this comment? 25 A: I can't recollect.


1 Q: Okay. And does that accord with your 2 recollection, this statement on there being too many 3 spokespersons? 4 A: I don't recall that at all, to be 5 honest. I don't recall very much about this meeting in - 6 - in general terms. I'm sorry. 7 Q: Can you tell me -- can you help me 8 with who from the MNR was communicating or acting as a 9 liaison, during that time period? 10 A: Well we had what we call -- it 11 depends on what you -- what you call communicating. Is 12 that with the media or is that -- 13 Q: Communicating with the municipal 14 officials. 15 A: I would suggest that any news 16 releases and so forth would have been through Daryl 17 Smith, our communications officer with the Critical 18 Incident Team. 19 Q: And do you know if -- if Daryl Smith 20 was handling calls from municipal officials or 21 communicating on a -- on a one to one basis with anyone, 22 aside from publications in the newspaper? 23 A: I would say that he would be fielding 24 all questions that were referred to him that he received 25 at the media centre here in Forest at the time.


1 Q: And I understand, from your testimony 2 earlier, that the discussions at the February 2nd 3 meeting, that this meeting formed the basis for the 4 recommendations outlined in the contingency planning, a 5 review of the 1995 occupations at Ipperwash and Serpent 6 Mounds that you were taken to earlier. And I -- I don't 7 think I need to take you to that document but, just for 8 the record it's Exhibit 802. 9 To your knowledge were any of the 10 recommendations in this report adopted or was anything -- 11 did it go any further? 12 A: I -- I don't recall. I'm -- I 13 retired in 1998 so I'm sure that -- that I just -- I 14 don't recall. I mean I haven't participated with the 15 Ministry since then. 16 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 18 Ms. Clermont. 19 Yes, Mr. Zbogar...? Mr. Alexander made 20 the estimate for you. Do you want to make your own 21 estimate now as to how long you think you might be on 22 examination? 23 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I think he was right. 24 It'll be about two and a half (2 1/2) hours. Hopefully 25 less, but I'll be the balance of the day and into


1 tomorrow morning. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 4 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Kobayashi. 5 A: Good afternoon. 6 Q: My name is Vilko Zbogar, I'm 7 representing the Estate of Dudley George and members of 8 Dudley's family. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: First of all, can you just remind me 14 when you left your duties for the day on September the 15 6th, 1995, about what time of the day? 16 A: It must have been around nine 17 o'clock, 9:15 in there someplace when I arrived home. So 18 it would be earlier, eight o'clock or so. 19 Q: And before you left, what was the 20 latest you would have been briefed about the situation on 21 the ground by either your staff or by the OPP? 22 A: I -- I would suggest that things were 23 -- there was no incidents or requirement for me to be 24 there if, you know, in respect to escalation or anything, 25 that it was status quo for the moment.


1 Q: Yeah. You talked about that. So 2 there was nothing urgent going on at the time that you 3 left that you thought warranted MNR's action or OPP's 4 action that night? 5 A: That is correct. 6 Q: All right. And you also didn't 7 advocate or take the position in speaking with your 8 superiors or -- or in your communication with the OPP 9 that you thought the situation was so urgent that the OPP 10 or somebody knew to take action that night; that's 11 correct? 12 A: I didn't advocate it, no. 13 Q: And you didn't advocate a position, 14 for example, that you wanted the occupiers out of the 15 Park within say a day or two (2)? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Or within any particular time frame? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And you anticipated that the 20 situation could well take several days or maybe even 21 weeks or -- or so to resolve; is that fair? 22 A: That would be fair but I didn't 23 anticipate any time. I really wasn't looking at it in 24 time frames at that point and time. 25 Q: In -- in your own mind that's what


1 you thought. 2 A: Certainly. 3 Q: You didn't talk to people about that. 4 A: Certainly. 5 Q: Now Peter Sturdy gave evidence last 6 week and -- and Chief Superintendent Chris Coles gave 7 evidence on August 17th about what they perceived as the 8 situation on the ground on September 6th, 1995 as -- as 9 of about four o'clock in the afternoon. 10 And I want to also see if what they had to 11 say is consistent with your understanding since you were 12 the person on the ground. 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: So if I can let you know that Chris 15 Coles told us at this Inquiry that there was nothing 16 particularly going on at the Park as of the afternoon of 17 September 6th and Mr. Sturdy said that was consistent 18 with his understanding. 19 Is it consistent with your understanding? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: Chris Coles also said that there was 22 nothing going on that he would consider to be an 23 emergency situation that required immediate action by his 24 officers as of the afternoon of the 6th and Mr. Sturdy 25 agreed that was consistent with his understanding?


1 A: I agree. 2 Q: Okay. And Chris Coles also said 3 that, as of the afternoon of September 6th, there was no 4 hint of anything that suggested to him that things would 5 be escalating later that day, and I think you've already 6 said that that's correct. 7 A: That's correct, yes. 8 Q: Yeah. Did you ever express a view to 9 your superiors as to the desired timing of an injunction? 10 A: No. No, I did not. 11 Q: Did you ever express a view to your 12 superiors as to whether or what kind of injunction should 13 be sought? 14 A: I didn't know the different between 15 one (1) injunction and the other at the time. 16 Q: So you're -- you weren't aware at the 17 time of the -- of the term, "ex parte injunction?" 18 A: Not at that time. 19 Q: You know that's an emergency 20 injunction without notice, now? 21 A: I do. I do now, yes. And, you know, 22 basically a the time where we were in court, yes, I would 23 have known that -- 24 Q: Right. 25 A: -- but right up until that point in


1 time I was -- I just didn't understand the terms. 2 Q: Yeah. So you never expressed a 3 preference for -- well, you didn't know the term, "ex 4 parte," but you didn't express a preference for an 5 emergency injunction without notice? 6 A: No, that's right. 7 Q: I want to ask you a bit about the 8 Park's files, the documents that would have existed. 9 I take it you would have inherited some 10 files at the time that you became a superintendent? 11 A: Most certainly. 12 Q: And can you just describe for me, 13 generally, what that would have contained? 14 A: Oh, it would have been -- well, 15 actually there was files in our archives that have -- 16 over in our maintenance building that were in storage 17 from when the Park -- Ipperwash Park, the administration 18 of Ipperwash Park came up to Pinery. 19 So there would be files -- there was box - 20 - file boxes of files in our maintenance building in -- 21 in storage, and the active files would have been in a 22 filing cabinet in our main administrative office. 23 Now, those would have had historical 24 documents in them such as occurrence reports from 25 previous years, incident reports, flora and fauna


1 surveys, you know the rough -- rough notes, anything to 2 do with Ipperwash that we would have had on file at the 3 Park would either have been in our archives or in the 4 active files. 5 Q: Do you know about how far back those 6 records would have gone? Would they have gone back to 7 the beginning of the Park, 1938 or so? 8 A: Some perhaps. Some -- some I -- I 9 believe when we were researching through the files I 10 believe some documents went back that far, yes. 11 Q: Or even farther back? 12 A: Yes, I would -- I would suggest, 13 yeah. 14 Q: Would -- would correspondence to the 15 superintendents of the Park, over the years, be kept in 16 that file and retained in that file? 17 A: Yes, they would have. 18 Q: And I understand that, prior to 19 yourself becoming the Park superintendent, it was Don 20 Matheson who was the superintendent? 21 A: There was Bruce Hoeck, Ray Vonenburg 22 (phonetic), Jim Bass, Don Matheson and who else? Cater 23 Matheson, Don's father, Mr. Arnold. 24 Q: Arnold Dale? 25 A: Arnold Dale, yeah, Arnold Dale,


1 sorry. 2 Q: And I do have some questions about 3 the era during which he was the superintendent. 4 He was, I understand, superintendent from 5 1947 to 1955? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And subsequent to that it was Don 8 Matheson's father who was the superintendent? 9 A: No, Don Matheson's father -- yes, I 10 believe, yeah. 11 Q: And do you know how long -- what -- 12 what was that gentleman's name? 13 A: Cater. 14 Q: Cater? 15 A: Yeah, Matheson. 16 Q: And do you know approximately during 17 what period he was the superintendent? 18 A: It would be into the '50's into the 19 '60's. 20 Q: And did Don Matheson take over from 21 his father or were there intermediate -- 22 A: No, there was somebody in between 23 them, I'm just trying to think who it was. I don't 24 believe so, at any rate. 25 Q: How --


1 A: Don became superintendent, I believe 2 about '74, in there someplace. 3 Q: Do you know how long it was between 4 the end of, sorry was it Cato? 5 A: Cater. 6 Q: Cater's tenure and Don Matheson's 7 tenure? 8 A: No. I -- I -- probably -- I'm trying 9 to think who was in between those -- those people but I 10 know there was another superintendent -- fairly certain 11 there was another superintendent, but I -- I -- no, I 12 don't, not right off hand. 13 Q: Farthest a couple of years or -- 14 A: No. There was more -- longer than 15 that I would think, probably -- 16 Q: Less than about -- 17 A: -- five (5) years or six (6) years or 18 seven (7) years, in around there. 19 Q: Okay. Get back to Arnold Dale 20 (phonetic) in a little while. I want to start -- I've 21 given you a book of documents, it's on the corner of the 22 table there. I want to refer you to a few of the 23 documents in there -- A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- starting with Tab 1. This is 25 Inquiry Document 3000725 and it's Exhibit P-821. And


1 what this is -- I don't expect you've seen this document 2 before. 3 A: I haven't no. 4 Q: This is a log of notes of a meeting, 5 apparently, between the Department of National Defence 6 officials and members of the Stoney Point Group. 7 And what I want to ask you is just one 8 particular entry on page 8 of that document. Do you see 9 the page numbers on that -- on the top right of those log 10 sheets? 11 A: Oh, on the log sheets? Yes. 12 Q: What I want to refer you to is the 13 bottom half of that page. You'll see there's an Item 14 Number 4 and it says: 15 "Following are the Stoney Point Group 16 requests for investigations." 17 Do you see that? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: Then it says: 20 "Want an investigation into what has 21 happened to the headstones at their 22 cemetery. Some are missing." 23 And then it goes on to say: 24 "Want an investigation as to who is 25 responsible for safeguarding their


1 cemetery in the Provincial Park." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now this -- these notes are dated 4 December 8th, 1993 in reference to a meeting that I 5 understand would have occurred on that date. 6 Was this request for an investigation into 7 who was responsible for safeguarding the cemetery in the 8 Provincial Park, ever communicated to you directly by the 9 DND or indirectly through your superiors? 10 A: That's my -- yes. Never heard of 11 this before. 12 Q: Never heard of that at all? 13 A: No. Not at all. 14 Q: I want to take you back to 1975, 15 going back in time. If you can turn up page -- or Tab 2 16 of your document book. And this was -- this was referred 17 to during your questions earlier. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: This is Exhibit P-822 and the Inquiry 20 Document number that I have for this copy is 1008093. 21 The reason I have it in this book is because I think page 22 2 of that tab was not in the -- in the other document 23 number that was referenced in the list of documents so. 24 I think you referred to this -- this 25 document earlier. In this second page of the tab was a


1 memo or a letter from D. R. Fortner, District Manager of 2 Chatham to the Park Superintendent at Ipperwash dated 3 January 16th, 1975. 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: Have you seen that before? 6 A: I can't recall if I have or not, no. 7 Q: Now the memo from Daryl Smith dated 8 September 14th and which is addressed to you, do you 9 recall seeing that fax before? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: I understand that the -- the second 12 page under that tab would have been attached to that fax? 13 You -- can you help us on that? 14 A: Yes. I do recall the third page. 15 Q: The third page but not the second? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. Would it be fair to assume 18 that whether or not you saw this when it was -- when 19 Daryl Smith sent this fax that this letter of January 16, 20 1975 probably would have been in the Park's files as of - 21 - as of September 1995? 22 A: This letter wasn't in the -- in our 23 files at the Park. I believe Daryl found this letter in 24 the archives in Toronto, which was back -- going back, 25 way back to this time, that's where a lot of the


1 documents ended up going, copies of documents and so 2 forth, ended up in the archives. 3 But this particular letter, Daryl did find 4 this in the archives in Toronto. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And we did not have this letter on 7 file. This -- at that time was the first time I saw the 8 letter, when I received it from Daryl, but -- 9 Q: Okay. Now I understand that copies 10 of these documents do go to the archives, as they should 11 but -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- given that this is a letter to the 14 Park Superintendent, and given that I understood that 15 correspondence from a Superintendent and others, 16 generally is kept in the Park file. 17 You're saying in this case it probably 18 wasn't, or -- or if it was it was lost? 19 A: Yes, I have no idea where -- where 20 this -- this actual letter ended up in our files, 21 because it wasn't in our files when we went to do our 22 research and so forth. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: And there was several actual files 25 that seemed to be not in sequence, there was some missing


1 files there, whether they were lost in transported from 2 one (1) place to the other, or whatever. But we searched 3 all our files. We did an extensive search, trying to 4 locate this letter, once we received this letter. 5 Q: Okay. And that -- that -- sorry, did 6 you finish your answer, I'm sorry? 7 A: I was just -- we were just trying to 8 -- to finalize and find out where this letter went, 9 because obviously it wasn't in our files at the Park. 10 Q: Okay, and that search happened after 11 the shooting of Dudley George? 12 A: Oh, most certainly, yes. Yes. 13 Q: Now in 1975, I understand it was Don 14 Matheson who was the Park Superintendent? 15 A: I assume it would be. 16 Q: And -- 17 A: I'm uncertain who at that -- that 18 specific date, and what his tenure was there, but I do 19 recall around that time he was the Superintendent, yes. 20 Q: Okay. I guess my question will -- 21 will operate on that assumption. Presumably if this was 22 sent to him, you would have been aware of it, I would 23 imagine? 24 A: No, he -- he was not aware of it. 25 Q: He was not aware of it?


1 A: He was very surprised when this came 2 -- when we got this as well. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Was -- was he not aware of it, or he 6 didn't remember it? There's a bit of a distinction. 7 A: He was surprised to see the letter, 8 that -- that this was -- had actually occurred and wasn't 9 in our files, because it definitely wasn't there. 10 Q: Okay. Now, there -- attached to this 11 letter apparent -- when it was -- when it was apparently 12 sent or not sent, it's dated January 16, 1975, but 13 attached to that document are typed transcripts of 14 correspondence from 1937, which referred to a burial 15 ground in the Park. 16 And prior to -- prior to September of 17 1995, now I know we've talked about that letter, but I 18 want to ask you the 1937 correspondence, prior to 19 September of 1995, when a shooting incident happened, did 20 Don Matheson or anyone else ever advise you of the 21 existence of that 1937 correspondence? 22 A: Never. 23 Q: Or did you have any indication about 24 any of the information contained in that 1937 25 correspondence?


1 A: Not to my recollection, no. 2 Q: And then I take it that it's fairly 3 obvious then that you would have no idea as to whether 4 the First Nation or the Stony Point group would have been 5 advised of the contents of that correspondence prior to 6 September 1995? 7 A: I have no knowledge of it. I have no 8 knowledge of it. 9 Q: When was it that you first became 10 aware of the fact that there was this correspondence in 11 1937, that talked about the burial ground in the Park? 12 A: Around September 14th, 1995, yes. 13 Q: And that was because of Daryl Smith's 14 fax? 15 A: Exactly. 16 Q: Given the issue that was raised by 17 the occupiers about the burial ground in the Park, which 18 -- which you are aware of when the occupation began. 19 Would you agree that it would have been 20 preferable for you to have been aware of this 1937 21 documentation, at the time of the occupation commencing? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And going back a few more years to 24 1972 I understand there was an archeological report done 25 by somebody by the name of Peter Hamalainen?


1 A: That is correct. 2 Q: And you're aware of the archeological 3 survey report that he prepared in 1972? 4 A: Somewhat. I've read it a few times, 5 yes. 6 Q: Yeah. Were you aware of that prior 7 to the shooting incident? 8 A: Oh, yes, yes. Yes, this is one (1) 9 of the documents we believed that -- that substantiated 10 the fact that there wasn't a burial ground in the Park or 11 helped us to substantiate. 12 Q: Right. Do you know when -- is it 13 something that was general -- general knowledge to you 14 for quite some time or is this something that came to 15 your attention around the time of the occupation? 16 A: Oh, no, it -- this was on file in our 17 -- our Park files and actually helped us premise the -- 18 do the framework for the 1992 management plan. So this 19 would have been a part of the background information that 20 we had for that management plan back in 1988/89. We 21 would have used this. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: But this document is -- is always on 24 file in the library. 25 Q: Okay, great. And at Tab Number 3 of


1 the document I've put before you is a fax from Ian Seddon 2 to Peter Allen and Peter Sturdy dated September 12th of 3 1995 which attaches that -- Peter Hamalainen's report 4 along with a typed transcript of that report along with 5 one (1) page of notes commenting about -- on that report. 6 So what I want to ask you about is 7 particularly the page of -- of notes which is at the 8 second page of that tab. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And this is Document -- for the 11 record 1012369. I believe it's an exhibit. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I believe it is too. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I believe it's been 17 assigned a number although it's not at our fingertips 18 right now. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 23 Q: Now, when you first -- originally 24 became aware of the 1972 report or what -- the 25 information that it contained you assumed that it was


1 reliable I imagine, otherwise you wouldn't have relied on 2 it? 3 A: Correct. We use that as the 4 formation of the Ipperwash -- part of the formation of 5 the Ipperwash Management Plan. So we did feel that it 6 was fairly accurate. 7 Q: Okay. Now, the particular note that 8 I referred you to, I understand according to the second 9 last paragraph of that page it says that the above points 10 -- it -- it mentions a few comments about the value of 11 the Hamalainen report, the three (3) bullet points and 12 then it says: 13 "The above points originate from a 14 conversation on September 12th, 1995 15 between Ian Seddon of the MNR and Neal 16 Ferris, Archeological and Heritage 17 Planning Section Cultural Programs 18 Branch of MCT&R, London." 19 Now, have you seen those comments that 20 arise from their conversation before? 21 A: I believe I have. 22 Q: And you would have seen this around 23 September 12th of -- of 1995 or thereabouts or in any 24 event shortly after the occupation? 25 A: Eventually I would have but this was


1 -- this was not sent to myself -- 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: -- so I would have got it at some 4 point in time. 5 Q: It would have filtered down to you 6 sometime -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- in September, October -- 9 A: Exactly. 10 Q: -- or so of 1995? 11 A: Exactly. 12 Q: Yeah. Now, the points -- the 13 cautions about the value of the report include that: 14 "The methodology does not -- the 15 methodology used at the time, 1972, 16 does not agree with current 17 archeological survey standards. 18 The report can't be used to say with 19 authority that there are no burial 20 sites within the Park and [and it 21 mentions that] it's unlikely that 22 burial sites will be found in the Park 23 since no evidence of long-term human 24 habitation has been found. And it's 25 quite possible habitation of the


1 seasonal temporary nature may have 2 occurred in Ipperwash, though again, no 3 evidence has been found to support this 4 view. Prehistoric burial sites found 5 in other areas and South Western 6 Ontario have always been in association 7 with long term habitation sites." 8 Now those points, were you aware of those 9 points or cautions or views prior to the shooting 10 incident? 11 A: No. Not at all. 12 Q: I want to also refer you to the next 13 tab. Tab 4 of my document brief. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And this is Inquiry Document 1008801 16 and it's a letter from Paul Lennox to Peter Sturdy dated 17 February 2nd of 1996. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry, just before 19 we get to that, counsel, the exhibit number for the a fax 20 of September the 12th, 1995 with the notes and Peter 21 Hamalainen report is Exhibit P-17. 22 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Thank you. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 25 Q: So back to Tab 4, this is Paul


1 Lennox's letter to Peter Sturdy dated February 2nd of 2 1996 and I note that you were copied on this 3 correspondence. 4 A: I was. 5 Q: Do you recall seeing this letter 6 around that time? 7 A: I recall seeing the letter, yes. 8 Q: I want to ask you about -- well I 9 guess page 2 of that document. I don't know if you want 10 to have a few seconds to review that again to refresh 11 yourself as to its contents. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now Paul Lennox, the author of -- of 17 this letter was an archaeologist with the Ontario 18 Ministry of Transportation based in London at that time? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: He states in the large paragraph on 21 page 2 of his letter the following. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I'm just finding the reference,


1 sorry. About halfway through that large paragraph after 2 the name P. Wright. Do you see where that appears? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: It says: 5 "Service undertaken at that time, 1972, 6 were opportunistic and judgmental, not 7 systematic nor exhaustive and are not 8 reliable in a conclusion by today's 9 standards." 10 First of all do you have any reason to 11 disagree with Paul Lennox's statement? 12 A: I'm not an archaeologist so. 13 Q: Exactly my point. He's -- he's the 14 expert and so you have no reason to doubt his 15 conclusions. 16 A: Exactly. 17 Q: Now would you agree that it would 18 have been preferable for you to be aware of these 19 cautions about the Hamalainen report from the beginning 20 of the time that you started using it or relying upon it? 21 A: Certainly. 22 Q: I want to get into the -- your 23 contact with Marilyn Dulmage and 1950 and earlier reports 24 of burial findings in the Park. 25 Now first of all if you could turn to pa -


1 - Tab 6 of my document brief. Now you did state in -- in 2 your previous evidence that you were aware that -- you 3 became aware of this finding of a burial in 1950 in the 4 Park. 5 And at Tab 6 of the documents which is 6 answers to undertakings of the Provincial Crown in -- in 7 the George v. Harris litigation. 8 You were asked some questions and one of 9 them I would like to refer you to, the answer was as 10 follows. I'm specifically referring to the second page 11 of that tab. It's numbered page 12 at the top; the 12 Question Number is 139, and the Inquiry Document Number 13 is 6000397. 14 And the information that's contained there 15 says: 16 "Les Kobayashi advises that he believes 17 that he learned about the 1950 18 discovery of human remains from Don 19 Matheson, who is now deceased. Mr. 20 Kobayashi does not know why this 21 information was not recorded, and it 22 now..." 23 I'm not sure where this -- where this fits 24 into your evidence. It says that you learned about the 25 1950 burial finding from Don Matheson; is that correct?


1 A: I believe that Donna Stoertson spoke 2 with Don Matheson, who then relayed that information on 3 to me, and -- 4 Q: Okay. So then they are the same? 5 A: -- they were followed through. 6 That's right, yes. 7 Q: Okay, sir. That's helpful. 8 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Actually, before I go 9 on, I wonder if we could make the previous document I -- 10 I referred to, Document 1008801, the letter from Paul 11 Lennox to Peter Sturdy, dated February 2nd, 1996, the 12 next exhibit? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-905. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-905: Document number 1008801 16 Letter from Paul Lennox to P. 17 Sturdy, Feb. 02/'96. 18 19 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I don't intend to make 20 that Discovery Undertaking into an exhibit. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 23 Q: So, do you know whether Don Matheson 24 would have been aware of the 1950 burial finding prior to 25 Donna Stewardson speaking with him about it?


1 A: He was not aware of it. 2 Q: It was news to both of you? 3 A: Pardon me? 4 Q: It was news to both of you? 5 A: As a matter of fact it was, yes. 6 Q: Now you -- you did follow up that 7 information and -- and what you learned, I understand, is 8 that during the week of April 24th, 1950, Opal Dale, who 9 was the wife of former Park Superintendent, Arnold Dale, 10 discovered human remains which had been partly exposed 11 after a storm or a blowing of wind; I think you've -- 12 we've already spoken about that. 13 And, now Arnold Dale, he was actually 14 living at the Park with his family at the time? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And you met with Marilyn Dulmage on - 17 - along with Don Matheson, on January 15th of 1996? 18 A: That -- that sounds correct, yes. 19 Q: And -- and I think Tab 212 of your 20 materials talks about that, and I want to ask a bit more 21 about that issue. 22 Now specifically, when you heard of this 23 information from Ms. Stewardson, obviously you found it 24 important enough or necessary to contact Ms. Dulmage, 25 originally by phone and then once you spoke with her and


1 had some idea of what she knew, you decided it was 2 important to meet with her in person. 3 Can you maybe help me out or maybe tell me 4 a bit more about why you thought it was so important to 5 pry into this? 6 A: Well, it's obvious that we didn't 7 realize this had occurred at the Park, and -- and we felt 8 that it had some value to -- to -- to provide information 9 to the issue itself, because it seemed to be a, you know, 10 that was one of the first opportunities that we had found 11 any evidence of a burial site within the boundaries of 12 the Park. 13 So we obviously felt that it was extremely 14 important. We -- we believe we didn't -- we didn't want 15 any more surprises that...and we wanted to research it 16 out. We were really quite -- at that time we were very 17 interested and we did a lot of other things as well to 18 try to research out the history of the Park and, -- 19 Q: Right. 20 A: -- find out more details about it. 21 Q: So this information was potentially 22 evidence that might support the claims that the occupiers 23 were making about a burial -- burial ground in the Park 24 and you wanted to get to the bottom of it, at least this 25 part of the information.


1 A: Exactly. 2 Q: And that would help in -- potentially 3 in discussions with the First Nation and -- and -- 4 A: Oh, for certain. 5 Q: -- was there -- and was there steps 6 MNR might decide to take in the future? 7 A: Exactly. There was nothing to hide 8 here. We were just trying to -- to get as much 9 information as possible. 10 Q: All right. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Your e-mail of January 16th, I don't 15 need you to turn it up, but it says that: 16 "She pointed out where she believes 17 there is a burial site at Ipperwash 18 Park, at a place shown to her by her 19 father while they were residing at the 20 Park and then describes that location." 21 I think she mentioned that it was near the 22 bathhouse or near the reservoir? 23 A: That's right, near the -- more near 24 the bath -- where the bathhouse was, yes. 25 Q: I think you've --


1 A: I pointed it out. 2 Q: -- pointed it out already to us. And 3 then you go on to say in your e-mail that: 4 "The information and the detail that 5 she provided was accurate as confirmed 6 by Don." 7 And then you go onto say that: 8 "Don and I do feel strongly that this 9 area, the area identified by Marilyn 10 Dulmage, could be a burial site." 11 Can you just elaborate on those 12 statements? 13 A: I guess they were -- no, I really -- 14 I'm -- I'm really not sure why -- why we said that or 15 felt that at the time to be honest with you. Obviously 16 if they found bones there, yes, we would have felt that 17 there was a grave site whether it be burial grounds, a 18 burial -- you know whatever of some sort. 19 If she indicated there was bones there 20 because the -- actually when they -- I believe they found 21 -- found -- found it in that location when they were 22 excavating for -- for the bathhouse. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: So -- and I don't believe there's a 25 lot of soil conditions there as well so it would have


1 been fairly close to the surface. 2 Q: All right. 3 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I notice, Mr. 4 Commissioner, you're looking at your watch. I don't know 5 if you want to break now or -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no, I 7 think -- 8 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you can 10 continue to 4:30 unless you -- 11 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I won't read anything 12 into that. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- unless 14 you -- 15 THE WITNESS: No, I'm fine. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- go to 17 4;30? That's fine? 18 THE WITNESS: Sure. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We usually 20 break at 4:30, that's okay. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 23 Q: So my understanding is -- of -- of 24 what you said or what you described in your e-mail is 25 that the information that Ms. Dulmage gave to you seemed


1 reliable, seemed credible, she seemed to know what she 2 was talking about. 3 She had some detail about it and you had 4 no reason to disbelieve -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- anything she was saying and you 7 thought it was credible and...? 8 A: Exactly. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now, the bathhouse which she 14 described, that I understand was converted into student 15 sleeping quarters or something? 16 A: That's correct, yes. 17 Q: Is that building still in existence? 18 A: No, it isn't, it was -- I'm not quite 19 sure when it was taken down, but it was taken down 20 sometime ago. 21 Q: At some point you came into 22 possession of two (2) photographs taken by Ms. Dale -- of 23 the burial findings. You mentioned those in your 24 testimony earlier. 25 The two (2) photos in particular are


1 referred to and actually copies are included in a report 2 by Joanne MacDonald and that's at Tab 7 of your materials 3 -- of the -- the document brief I have before you. 4 Document Number 3000370 -- you know who 5 Joanne MacDonald is or what she was doing at -- with this 6 issue? 7 A: I -- I think she was the Federal 8 Government researcher of some sort. 9 Q: She was doing some research for the 10 Indian Claims Commission on burial grounds and those 11 kinds of things? 12 A: I believe so, yes. I -- I never met 13 her. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Now, what I've included in your -- in 16 your document brief is an excerpt from chapter 3 of her 17 report. It's marked, "A Draft for Discussion item." I'm 18 not aware of any subsequent drafts so this is -- this 19 what I've got. 20 So at the second page of that tab there's 21 a photograph of a partial skeleton and you saw the actual 22 black and white photograph, right? 23 A: I did so. 24 Q: And on the following page is a 25 photograph of somebody who seems to be identified as Owen


1 -- I think it's Owen Burley standing over the skeleton? 2 A: That could be, yes. 3 Q: And you've seen that photograph 4 before? 5 A: Yes, I did. 6 Q: Those are the two (2) photographs you 7 referred to in your testimony earlier? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: And unfortunately the -- the photos - 10 - the photos that are here are not very good quality. 11 So I wonder if you could, maybe, help us 12 identify or describe these items in a bit more detail? 13 What are we looking at; that sort of thing? 14 Can you comment on them at all? 15 A: I really can't other than -- other 16 than the fact that I think Mrs. Dulmage had indicated 17 that they'd actually moved the bones to another location 18 to photograph them. 19 I believe that was said at one point in 20 time. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Other than that, no, I can't really 23 say too much other than they're skeletal remains really. 24 Q: I don't know if we do have the photos 25 in the -- in our files. But anyway.


1 And you also saw the caption or the 2 writing on the back of one of those photographs? This is 3 the second page of the -- of the tab number 7 in the 4 document brief? 5 A: Yes, I believe I did. 6 Q: It says: 7 "A skeleton unearthed at Ipperwash 8 where the bath house now stands. Opal 9 reconstructed it and took its picture. 10 The skeleton went to Western 11 University." 12 You recall seeing that as well? 13 A: Yes, I do. 14 Q: Now, after meeting with Ms. Dulmage 15 and after you saw the photos sometime later, you had some 16 contact with Paul Lennox? 17 A: I believe Peter Sturdy pretty much 18 looked after contacting Paul Lennox and dealt with Paul 19 Lennox. 20 Q: Okay. And you were aware of -- but 21 you were aware of -- or kept aware, at least, of 22 generally what was going on in terms of that research 23 that he was doing -- or that Peter Sturdy was looking 24 after? 25 A: In general terms. Yes. Yes.


1 Q: And Mr. Lennox, I understand, did do 2 some further research on the issue -- oh, sorry. 3 Before I do that, I'm horrible at making 4 things exhibits so I should go back and, if I can, make 5 document 3000370 the next exhibit? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-906, Your Honour. 7 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: At least, it's pages 8 26 to 29 of that report at the bottom that -- that I've 9 referred to. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-906: Document number 3000370 12 Excerpt from Ch. 3 (pages 26 to 29) 13 of Report of Joanne MacDonald 14 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's 26.1 and 26.2, I 16 believe, to be precise. 17 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Those were included as 18 well. Yes, thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 23 Q: Now, I understand and -- and -- and 24 do you recall that Paul Lennox subsequently met with Opal 25 Dale and her daughter Joyce Erins (phonetic)?


1 A: I don't recall that. 2 Q: Okay. If I can refer you to Tab 8 -- 3 or, sorry, Tab 9 of my document brief you'll see that's a 4 fax from Paul Lennox to -- to yourself? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Attaches his notes of October 30th, 7 1996 and says -- Paul Lennox says, and I'll quote from 8 the beginning of his document: 9 "Visited yesterday with Opal Dale, the 10 wife of Arnold Dale, Park 11 Superintendent at Ipperwash. Mrs. Dale 12 is now 93 years old and appears to 13 remember details of her life at the 14 Park very well." 15 Do you recall seeing that -- becoming 16 aware of that information around this time of October 17 1996? 18 A: I do recall it. 19 Q: That refreshes your memory? 20 A: Yes, I can recall that now. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And for the record, this is document 25 number 3001562. And if I could I'd like to make that


1 document the next exhibit? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-907, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-907: Document number 3001562 5 Fax from Paul Lennox to L. Kobayashi 6 with attached notes, Oct. 31/96. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 9 Q: So you've seen this document before, 10 I take it? 11 A: Yes, I recall reading it. 12 Q: What I want to ask you is whether 13 there's any information in that document that you were 14 not aware of prior to having received this document? 15 So I wonder if you might take a minute to 16 read through it and let me know if anything -- anything 17 in there was new to you when you received this? 18 A: When I received this document? 19 Q: Yes. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Mr. Myrka makes the 24 wise suggestion at 4:30 in the afternoon -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, do you


1 want to finish what you started? Why don't you finish 2 the -- 3 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Well, he suggests that 4 maybe the witness be given an opportunity to review 5 this -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, you want 7 to give him some time to read it. 8 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: -- and then he can 9 have some time to think about it. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We might 11 finish this last -- that point and then move on but let's 12 break now and give him an opportunity to read it and 13 we'll go back to these questions tomorrow morning. 14 We'll adjourn now until 9:00 a.m. tomorrow 15 morning, thank you. 16 17 (WITNESS RETIRED) 18 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Excuse me, 20 Commissioner. I'm sorry. Just in terms of trying to 21 determine the balance of the week. I'm wondering, 22 counsel who are remaining for cross-examination, are your 23 estimates still accurate? Lower? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Lower from 25 the Chiefs, Mr. Horner.


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Lower. All right. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not higher, 3 in any event. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Not higher and -- and 5 likely lower, okay. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we will 7 have time to have -- 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, at this rate we 9 may well finish by lunch tomorrow -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We should be 11 able to begin another witness. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- the cross- 13 examination or thereabouts. Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much. 16 17 (WITNESS RETIRES) 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 20 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, October 26th at 9:00 21 a.m. 22 23 --- Upon adjourning at 4:30 p.m. 24 25


1 2 3 4 5 Certified Correct 6 7 8 9 10 _________________________ 11 Carol Geehan 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25