11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 October 24th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 16 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 Kevin Scullion ) 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Mary Jane Moynahan )(np) 15 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) 17 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 18 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 19 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 20 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 15 16 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) 23 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 24 Adam Goodman ) 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 LESLIE KAZO KOBAYASHI, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 16 7 8 9 10 Certificate of Transcript 243 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-834 Document number 1010429. 4 Fax from L. Kobayashi to Daryl 5 Smith Re: " Ipperwash issue 6 communications", May 19/93. 17 7 P-835 Document number 1007806. 8 Fax from L. Kobayashi to Ron Baldwin 9 Re:" Native contact at Ipperwash Park", 10 May 18/93 19 11 P-836 Document number 1009459. 12 Fax from L., Kobayashi to R. Baldwin 13 Re: "Stoney Point First Nation letter from 14 Chief Carl George and Maynard T. George, 15 May 20/93 23 16 P-837 Document number 1010416. 17 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to R. Baldwin 18 Re: "Meeting Maynard George, May 20, 1993 25 19 P-838 Document number 1010397 20 Signed MNR letter from L. Kobayashi to Mr. 21 Carl George , May 25/93. 26 22 P-839 Document number 1007800 23 Signed and dated MNR letter from 24 L. Kobayashi to "Dear Vistor to 25 Ipperwash Provincial Park", May 21/93. 29
71 EXHIBITS - CONTINUED 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-840 Document number 1010414. 4 E-mail to R. Baldwin from L. Kobayashi 5 Re: "Meeting Maynard George, May 20/93", 6 May 21/93 31 7 P-841 Document number 1010419. 8 E-mail to L. Kobayashi from Terry 9 Humberstone Re: " Conversation with 10 Tom Bressette", May 20/93 33 11 P-842 Document number 1007227. 12 Memo from L. Kobayashi to various Re: 13 Ipperwash including enclosure of 14 internal reporting sequence 15 May 22/93. 38 16 P-843 Document number 1007789. 17 Report Re: "Ipperwash Provincial Park, 18 Enforcement Plan," May 1993 40 19 P-844 Document number 1007798. 20 E-mail to R. Baldwin from L. Kobayashi 21 Re: Meeting OPP Det. Sgt. Matthews," 22 May 25/93. 41 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS - CONTINUED 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-845 Document number 2001214 4 OPP letter to Supt. from 5 A/S/Sgt. E.B. Beacock Re: First 6 Nations occupation CFB Ipperwash 7 Prov. Park, May 26/93. 49 8 P-846 Document number 1010388 9 Unidentified handwritten note to 10 L. Kobayashi Re: " Removal of white 11 trailer from Ipperwash", June 04/93 51 12 P-847 Document number 1010386. 13 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to Terry 14 Humberstone Re: Kobayashi/Chief 15 Bressette meeting June 11/93 54 16 P-848 Document number 1009456. 17 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to T. 18 Humberstone Re: "Meeting Maynard 19 George and L. Kobayashi , June 14/93," 56 20 June /93 21 P-849 Document number 1010379. 22 E-mail to R. Baldwin from L. 23 Kobayashi Re: "Meeting Maynard George 24 June 18/93." 60 25
91 EXHIBITS - CONTINUED 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-850 Document number 1010376. 4 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to R. Baldwin 5 Re: "Ipperwash Park noise and fireworks 6 occurrence", June 28/95. 65 7 P-851 Document number 1010373. 8 E- mail from L. Kobayashi Re: 9 "Bosanquet TWP. meeting June 29/93" 10 June 30/93. 67 11 P-852 Document number 1010367 12 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to Distribution 13 List Re: Ipperwash ENF., July 16/93. 72 14 P-853 Document number 2002705. 15 E-mail from Brett Hodsdon Re: 16 "Ipperwash Situation" 17 refers to L. Kobayashi, July 15/93. 80 18 P-854 Document number 1010365 19 Memo to L. Kobayashi from Scott 20 D. Varley , Parks Technician Re: 21 "Camper comments concerning native 22 situation," July 16/93. 82 23 24 25
101 EXHIBITS - CONTINUED 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-855 Document number 1010366. 4 Memo to L. Kobayashi from Scott 5 D. Varley, Parks Technician Re: 6 "Event at the yellow gates concerning 7 native persons.", July 16/93. 83 8 P-856 Document number 1010364. 9 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to 10 R. Baldwin Re: "Ipperwash, the 11 story continues." July 16/93. 85 12 P-857 Document number 1010361. 13 Memo to L. Kobayashi from "Terry" 14 Re:"Ipperwash enforcement 15 Copy of e-mail from L. Kobayashi 16 July 16/93 Re: "Ipperwash ENF." 17 and 1993/4 - Ipperwash overtime 18 schedule for Park Wardens, July 20/93 88 19 P-858 Document number 1010358 20 E- mail to R. Baldwin from 21 T. Humberstone Re: "Ipperwash P.P. 22 Confrontation" July 27/93. 90 23 24 25
111 EXHIBITS - CONTINUED 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-859 Document number 1010356. 4 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to T. Humberstone 5 Re: "Incidents July 26 and 27 Ipperwash," 6 July 30/93. 91 7 P-860 Document number 1010351. 8 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to R. Baldwin 9 Re: "Update as of Aug. 18/93 95 10 P-861 Document number 1010336. 11 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to 12 P. Sturdy Re: "KP/SP Issue" Feb. 18/94. 100 13 P-862 Document number 1010334. 14 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to 15 P. Sturdy Re: "Ipperwash Issue", 16 Feb. 24/94. 102 17 P-863 Document number 1010333. 18 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to P. 19 Sturdy Re: "Ipperwash Issue". 20 Feb. 25/94. 103 21 P-864 Document number 1010325 22 Fax to L. Kobayashi et al from Wendy 23 McNab Re: "FYI Upcoming Native 24 Demonstration." Mar. 17/94 105 25
121 EXHIBITS - CONTINUED 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-865 Document number 1010310. 4 E-mail from P. Sturdy to Jim Young 5 Re: Ipperwash, May 26/95. 111 6 P-866 866 Document number 1010306. 7 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to Dan Elliott 8 Re: "Ipperwash" and e-mail to 9 L. Kobayashi from Dan Elliott 10 Re: "Ipperwash", May 31/94. 114 11 P-867 Document number 1010303. 12 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to 13 Distribution List Re: "Contact with 14 R. Ur's office MP", June 02/94. 118 15 P-868 Document number 1010161. 16 MNR letter from Donald R. Matheson 17 to Park Wardens Re: "OPP assistance 18 and update on Ipperwash Area". 19 June 30/95 146 20 P-869 Document number 3000618. 21 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to Distribution 22 List Re: "Ipperwash native issue" 23 July 02/95. 147 24 25
131 EXHIBITS - CONTINUED 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-870 Document number 1007944. 4 Memo to file Re: "Ipperwash Army Camp 5 issue" - July 30/95 from Don Matheson, 6 cc'd to L. Kobayashi, Aug. 02/95. 168 7 P-871 Document number 1009990. 8 E-mail to L. Kobayashi from Ed 9 Vervoort Re:" Emergency Contingency 10 Plan", Aug. 02/95. 179 11 P-872 Document number 1010284. Memo to All 12 Gate Staff from Don 13 Matheson signed by Les. Kobayashi 14 Re:" Native admission to Ipperwash Prov. 15 Park", undated 183 16 P-873 Document number 3000630. 17 To All Park Wardens cc. L. Kobayashi - 18 "Procedures dealing with First Nations 19 People", Aug. 18/95. 185 20 P-874 Document number 1010263. 21 Memo to All Park Wardens Re: 22 "Procedures dealing with First Nations 23 People". Aug. 28/95. 186 24 25
141 EXHIBITS - CONTINUED 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-875 Document number 1009255. 4 E-mail to L. Kobayashi et al from 5 Don Matheson Re: " Ipperwash Prov. 6 Park Native issues". Aug. 29/95. 189 7 P-876 Document number 3000152. 8 E-mail to L.Kobayashi from Rob Burnett 9 Re:"Building locations - Ipperwash" 10 Aug/95. 190 11 P-877 Document number 1007930. 12 Memo to file Re: "Ipperwash Army Camp 13 Issue". July 30/95 from Don Matheson, 14 cc'd to L. Kobayashi . Aug. 02/95 202 15 P-878 Document number 1007834. 16 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to P. Sturdy Re: 17 "Ipperwash" September 03/95. 209 18 P-879 Document number 1010255. 19 Confidential Brief - Illegal Occupation of 20 Ipperwash Prov. Park.- sept. 04/95 226 21 P-880 Document number 1012252. 22 Letter from L. Kobayashi to "whom it may 23 concern", Re: Order to leave Ipperwash 24 and Pinery Prov. Park under the Trespass 25 to Property Act." Sept. 04/95 227
151 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 4 NOTE: EXHIBIT CORRECTION 5 P-786 Document No. 1009036 email from Terry 6 Crabe to Peter Sturdy re: Ipperwash 7 tasks September 05/'95 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
161 --- Upon commencing at 10:32 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning, Mr. Kobayashi. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, Mr. 13 Kobayashi. 14 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 15 16 LESLIE KOZO KOBAYASHI, Resumed: 17 18 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: Now, when did you first become aware 20 of a group of Aboriginal persons who is self-identified 21 as the Stoney Point First Nation Number 43? 22 A: That would be in 1993 when we were 23 served a bailiff's notice. 24 Q: And perhaps you would go then to Tab 25 36 please. It's part of Inquiry Document Number 10102 --
171 sorry, 1010429, the fax cover sheet from Daryl Smith to 2 yourself dated May 19, 1993, fifth page in please. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: There's a document dated May 18, 1993 5 from Stoney Point First Nation re the Stoney Point First 6 Nations Reserve Number 43 on Aazhoodena territory. Is 7 that a copy of the bailiff's notice? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: I would like to make this document 10 the next exhibit please. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-834, Your Honour. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-834. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-834: Document number 1010429. 15 Fax from L. Kobayashi to Daryl Smith 16 Re: " Ipperwash issue communications", 17 May 19/93. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: And under what circumstances did you 21 learn of the service of this notice? 22 A: The best of my recollection is that I 23 believe there was a notice that was handed to one (1) of 24 my staff and then passed on to myself. 25 Q: All right. Now, what land did you
181 understand to be the subject of this notice. In other 2 words, what land did you understand the Stoney Point 3 First Nation to be claiming under the bailiff's notice? 4 A: That would be Ipperwash Provincial 5 Park. 6 Q: And I note that one (1) of the 7 signatories, at least the signatory appears to be Carl 8 George under "Agent". 9 Prior to this event had you known Mr. Carl 10 George? 11 A: No, I did not. 12 Q: Did you know Maynard Travis George? 13 A: Not to my recollection. 14 Q: Would you now go to Tab 30, fax cover 15 sheet from Ron Baldwin to yourself dated May 18, 1993, 16 and attached to it is a note to Ron; is that from 17 yourself? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: And it's Inquiry Document Number 20 1007806 and it records that Scott Varley was approached 21 at the Park and given notice as previously stated and 22 forwarded to you by him forwarding his account and it 23 looks like "and something of -- of Maynard's 24 conversation." 25 And attached to that is a memorandum dated
191 May 18, 1993 from Scott Varley to yourself. 2 And does that to the best of your 3 knowledge set out the circumstances under which the 4 bailiff's notice was provided to Mr. Varley at the Park? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: I'd like to make this the next 7 Exhibit, please? 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-835, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-835: Document number 1007806. 11 Fax from L. Kobayashi to Ron Baldwin 12 Re:" Native contact at Ipperwash Park", 13 May 18/'93 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: Now, based on your communication with 17 Mr. Varley and your review of the bailiff's notice was it 18 your understanding that the Stoney Point First Nation 19 wished to take over the Park and convert it to their own 20 exclusive use? 21 A: I don't believe that was my 22 understanding at the time. 23 Q: You understand what the -- what -- 24 what was your understanding of the extent of the 25 possessory (phonetic) or entitlement that they were
201 looking to -- to enforce? 2 A: I believe eventually at this 3 particular point in time I -- I believe the intent was to 4 provide information to users and to give us notice as 5 well that there was an intent to eventually have the Park 6 turned over to them. 7 Q: Was it also their intent to have a 8 memorial of some sort built? 9 A: I believe it was their intent to have 10 a memorial built for the World War II veterans that -- 11 from Stoney Point that had served for our country. 12 Q: Did you receive any direction as to 13 how you should respond to the notice and its contents? 14 A: Could you say that again? 15 Q: You -- did you receive any direction 16 as to how to respond to the -- the notice and its 17 contents? 18 A: I believe the district office and 19 native liaison officer at the time indicated that we 20 should respond to Kettle Point and Stoney Point chief -- 21 the chief and council. 22 Q: Were you also directed to have a 23 meeting with Carl George and Terry Humberstone? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: If you would go -- and did that
211 transpire? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you recall what -- first of all 4 who you met with and -- and what happened? 5 A: I believe we met at the Park. 6 Maynard T. George was there and Terry Humberstone and 7 myself and I -- those were the main -- main components or 8 people that I recognized, that I remember that were there 9 and it was at Ipperwash Provincial Park that we met. 10 Q: Now, was Mr. Humberstone, the -- one 11 (1) of the native liaison officers at the time? 12 A: That's correct. He was working out 13 of the district office in Aylmer and their 14 responsibilities were to deal with -- to liaise with 15 First Nations people. 16 Q: Did you receive any document or 17 demands at that meeting? 18 A: I believe we received the Bailiff's 19 Order at that particular point in time. Is that correct? 20 Q: Perhaps I would take you, then, to 21 Tab 42. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Inquiry document number 1009459, fax
221 cover sheet dated May 20, 1993, from yourself to Ron 2 Baldwin enclosing a further two (2) fax transmission -- 3 or three (3) fax transmission sheets and then the final 4 document is a document on Stoney Point First Nation 5 letterhead dated May 19, 1993. 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: And perhaps you would have a moment 8 and take a look at that. 9 I'd like to ask you whether or not you 10 recall receiving this at your meeting with Carl George 11 and Maynard T. George? 12 A: I believe this is the document that I 13 received there, yes. 14 Q: And based on your meeting and this 15 document, what was it that the First Nation was proposing 16 to you? 17 A: They were proposing that they set up 18 an information booth within the boundaries of the Park. 19 Also they spoke about co-management of the -- the -- the 20 campgrounds and the day-use areas. 21 They also spoke of a historical plaque 22 that they wanted to establish and a ceremony on 23 Remembrance Day in right of the veterans and landowners. 24 Q: I'd like to make this document the 25 next exhibit, please.
231 THE REGISTRAR: P-836, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-836: Document number 1009459. 4 Fax from L., Kobayashi to R. Baldwin 5 Re: " Stoney Point First Nation letter 6 from Chief Carl George and Maynard T. 7 George, May 20/'93 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: And what was your response to these 11 requests? 12 A: I believe Terry Humberstone then 13 moved it forward to the district manager, who was Ron 14 Baldwin at the time, and I received them. Other than 15 that, I don't believe there was any decisions made at 16 that particular point in time on how to respond. 17 Q: All right. Did you advise the 18 members of the Ontario Provincial Police of the fact of 19 this meeting? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: If you'd go to Tab 41, please, 22 Inquiry document number 2001205. It's a letter dated May 23 20, 1993 by Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock to the 24 Superintendent of the OPP and the first paragraph reports 25 that there was a -- he was advised there was a meeting on
241 May the 19th, 1993, at 1500 hours. Chief Carl George, 2 distorian (phonetic), Maynard T. George, and yourself, as 3 well at Brett Dodson and Terry Humberstone. 4 Does that refresh your memory at all? 5 A: I don't recollect it, no. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Unfortunately. 8 Q: At this time, did you have any 9 practice in place with respect to, if you will, advising 10 the OPP of any events that you thought to be of 11 significance, affecting the Park? 12 A: I believe there was, yes. 13 Q: Thank you. And next go to then, Tab 14 37, please. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: It's Inquiry document number 1010416, 19 e-mail dated May 20, 1993 from yourself to Ron Baldwin. 20 Does this set out accurately your report 21 of the meeting which apparently was held on May the 20th 22 with Chief Carl George and Maynard T. George? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: I'd like to make this the next 25 exhibit, please.
251 THE REGISTRAR: P-837, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-837: Document number 1010416. 4 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to R. Baldwin 5 Re: "Meeting Maynard George, May 20, 6 1993 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: Now as a result of this meeting, did 10 you provide a letter to Carl George setting out the 11 ministry's response? 12 A: Yes, I did take a letter to Carl 13 George in respect of the issue that -- and a letter was 14 actually drafted by the district manager, I believe, by 15 the native liaison officer and I didn't take it forward, 16 yes. 17 Q: And would you go next then to Tab 57 18 please. Inquiry Document Number 1010397, letter dated 19 May 25, 1993 from yourself to Mr. Carl George. 20 Is that the copy of the letter that you 21 provided to him? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And this letter suggests that -- that 24 you agreed that information could be distributed from an 25 information booth on the forthcoming Victoria Day
261 weekend, holiday weekend, is that your recollection? 2 A: Yes, it is. 3 Q: Also indicates that the Ministry felt 4 its position that it did not accept or condone the 5 validity of the bailiff's notice, is that your 6 recollection? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: And was there any further response or 9 reaction to the proposal of the co-management agreement 10 principles that were set out in the previous document? 11 A: No. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Do you recall? 16 A: Oh, I think I said no. 17 Q: Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. 18 Excuse me. I would like to make that the next exhibit 19 please. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-838, Your honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-838: Document number 1010397 23 Signed MNR letter from L. Kobayashi to 24 Mr. Carl George , May 25/93. 25
271 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Thank you. Now did you have any 3 concerns with respect to any possible disruption to the 4 Park use as a result of the decision to allow this group 5 to disseminate information from an information booth 6 within the Park? 7 A: I believe we did have some concerns. 8 First of all we wanted to make sure that our -- that our 9 patrons and perhaps up to probably two thousand (2000) 10 people would -- were aware of what was happening and the 11 reasons for, and to make sure that they felt that it was 12 a safe and secure situation. 13 Q: And did you take any measures then to 14 ensure, if you will, the -- the safety of the Park? 15 A: I recall sending -- or having a 16 letter drafted and sent out to -- that we would pass out 17 to the visitors to the Park. 18 Q: Did you also contact the local OPP to 19 advise them of the plan? 20 A: I believe we did. It would just the 21 regular course of procedures that we would follow in 22 respect to any type of issue at the Park. 23 Q: Okay. Now did members of the Stoney 24 Point First Nation actually move a structure onto the 25 Park for the Victoria Day long weekend of 1993?
281 A: Yes. Yes, there was a -- a white 2 structure, sort of a kiosk of some sort that was on a 3 trailer I believe that they moved onto the site and they 4 moved into a location close to the day-use area and close 5 to Stoney Point itself. 6 Q: And do you recall whether or not 7 information was disseminated? 8 A: Actually I don't recall that 9 -- what occurred there. 10 Q: All right. Perhaps you could go to 11 Tab 36 please which is Inquiry Document 1010429. It 12 starts with a fax cover sheet from yourself to Daryl 13 Smith dated May 19th. 14 The fourth page is a note. Is that -- 15 that's prefaced 'Ron', this being distributed throughout 16 the Park, contractors, park users, concession areas, et 17 cetera? Is that your handwriting? 18 A: That is my handwriting, yes. 19 Q: And then following that, we see a 20 series of documentation. The first is a notice, Stoney 21 Point First Nation dated May 18, 1993 which we've marked 22 as P-834, that's the bailiff's notice? 23 A: I don't -- I don't believe this is 24 what was being distributed at the time. 25 Q: All right. Do you see, as you look
291 through this Inquiry document number, the documentation 2 that was distributed? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Actually I do not. 7 Q: All right. Thank you. You indicated 8 earlier that you'd also prepared a notice to the visitors 9 to let them know what was going on? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: And if you go to Tab 47, Inquiry 12 Document Number 1007800, it's a letter dated May 21, 1993 13 from yourself addressed to: 14 "Dear Visitor to Ipperwash Provincial 15 Park." 16 Is that a copy of the notice that -- 17 A: It appears to be, yes. 18 Q: I'd like to make that the next 19 exhibit, please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-839, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-839: Document number 1007800 23 Signed and dated MNR letter from L. 24 Kobayashi to "Dear Vistor to Ipperwash 25 Provincial Park", May 21/93.
301 2 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 3 Q: Now, was the -- was this activity 4 carried out with any -- with -- peacefully or with any 5 disturbances? 6 A: There wasn't any disturbances at the 7 time, no. It was very peaceful. 8 Q: And by consenting to the carrying out 9 of this activity was the MNR conceding that the Stoney 10 Point First Nation had certain entitlements to the use of 11 the Park? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Was that position made known to Carl 14 George and Maynard T. George? 15 A: I believe it was, yes. 16 Q: And if you look at Tab 50, Inquiry 17 Document Number 1010414, an e-mail dated May 21, 1993 to 18 Ron Baldwin from yourself, does that set out accurately 19 the circumstances of the information you provided to 20 Maynard George on May the 20th? 21 A: Which tab was it again? 22 Q: Tab 50. 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: I'm sorry, Tab 53, excuse me. 25
311 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: This is correct. 4 Q: So you indicate that at no time was 5 there any acknowledgement or acceptance of the co- 6 management agreement or acceptance of the notice of 7 eviction; initialled the documentation as receipt of only 8 and stated, I am accepting receipt of the documentation 9 and not acknowledging the terms of the agreement? 10 A: That is correct. 11 Q: And this is in relation to the 12 document that set out the co-management principles? 13 A: That is correct. 14 Q: Can we make this the next exhibit, 15 please? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-840 and that was 17 document number...? 18 Q: 1010414. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-840: Document number 1010414. 22 E-mail to R. Baldwin from L. Kobayashi 23 Re: "Meeting Maynard George, May 24 20/93", May 21/'93 25
321 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Do you recall whether there were any 3 discussions held at about this time with representatives 4 from the Kettle and Stony Point Band in relation to the 5 intended activities by the Stoney Point First Nation in 6 relation to the Park? 7 A: I do not recall. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: If you would kindly go then to Tab 12 39, Inquiry Document Number 1010419, second page, an e- 13 mail to Ron Baldwin from Terry Humberstone dated May 14 20th, 1993. 15 It indicates that there was a telephone 16 conversation with Chief Tom Bressette with respect to 17 Maynard T. George's plans in the Ipperwash Provincial 18 Park. Perhaps you'd take a moment to look at that and 19 advise me whether or not that refreshes your memory? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I do recall reading the memo -- the 24 e-mail and I do recall conversations about this, but I 25 did not speak with Kettle Point and Stoney Point myself.
331 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 2 next exhibit, please? 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-841, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-841: Document number 1010419. 6 E-mail to L. Kobayashi from Terry 7 Humberstone Re: " Conversation with Tom 8 Bressette", May 20/93. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: And according to this e-mail Chief 12 Bressette apparently said that: 13 "They [that is the Kettle Point] 14 claimed some land a few years ago and 15 did similar things, i.e., set up tents, 16 camps, et cetera. The OPP moved in and 17 arrested them, evicted them and charged 18 them with trespass. 19 Tom feels that we are setting a double 20 standard by letting Maynard T. George 21 and his group move into the park 22 unchallenged and that he was going to 23 complain to the government." 24 Now, did you -- is that consistent with 25 your understanding of the Chief's position at the time?
341 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: Apparently, he also expressed a view 3 that by allowing this activity you were setting up the -- 4 setting yourselves up for some trouble in the future. 5 Is that consistent with your recollection 6 of his position? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, at this point in time, while 12 these discussions were ongoing, had the Stoney Point 13 First Nation entered into a partial occupation of Camp 14 Ipperwash? 15 A: Yes, they had. When I served the -- 16 the -- or provided Chief Carl George the letter, I 17 actually had to go on the base to deliver the letter. 18 Q: Okay. And did the fact -- did that 19 fact raise any concern for you, as Park Superintendent, 20 in relation to the safety of the Park and its users and 21 staff? 22 A: There was also a concern in regards 23 to what could take place. We were always very concerned 24 about our users, obviously, providing that information 25 letter, as well as the fact that we were always concerned
351 about our staff -- staff safety as well. 2 Q: What specifically was your concern in 3 this regard? 4 A: That there could be conflicts or 5 situations that arose that would create -- re-inflare the 6 situation. 7 Our Park wardens were trained to deal with 8 rowdyism and so forth, and alcohol infractions and so 9 forth, but not to deal with civil disobedience or 10 anything of that nature. 11 So I would be concerned about their 12 safety. 13 Q: Now, in 1993 were you aware of the 14 existence of a structure in government called an 15 Interministerial Committee on aboriginal emergencies? 16 A: I was not. 17 Q: Were you aware or, to your knowledge, 18 was an Interministerial Committee meeting convened in 19 response to the actions of the Stoney Point First Nation, 20 in 1993? 21 A: Not to my recollection. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Would you go to Tab 55, please.
361 Inquiry document number 3001713. It appears to be 2 minutes of Interministerial officials Committee held May 3 25, 1995 re Camp Ipperwash and Ipperwash Provincial Park 4 and I'd just ask you to look at that briefly to see 5 whether or not that might refresh your memory as to 6 whether you -- you were aware of this meeting having 7 occurred in May. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: I don't recall if I was ever aware of 12 this particular meeting. 13 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, as a 14 result of the various actions, then, by the Stoney Point 15 First Nation in May of 1993 with respect to the Park, 16 were any special protocols or procedures created to deal 17 with future similar situations by the MNR? 18 A: I believe the district compliance 19 specialist at the time, Brett Hodsdon, started to prepare 20 and prepared a -- a contingency plan to deal with any 21 such problems. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And if you would look at Tab 54,
371 Inquiry document 1007227, there's a memorandum in here 2 dated May 22, 1993, from yourself to -- is that to your 3 Park staff at Ipperwash? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Attaching information 6 which they were to implement in order to deal with any 7 eventualities resulting from the activities of the Stoney 8 Point First Nation? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And if you look to the -- first of 11 all to the fifth page in, there's an internal reporting 12 sequence document. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the next page is entitled 15 'Contingency Plan Occupation of Ipperwash Provincial 16 Park'. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And is that the document that was 19 prepared specifically as a safeguard if you will, in 20 response to the possible activities of the First Nation? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: I would like to make this the next 23 exhibit please. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-842, Your Honour. 25
381 ---EXHIBIT NO. P-842: Document number 1007227. 2 Memo from L. Kobayashi to various Re: 3 Ipperwash including enclosure of 4 internal reporting sequence , May 5 22/93. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: And I might just ask that the 9 personal telephone information would be redacted from the 10 document Internal Reporting Sequence. 11 Now to your knowledge, did the OPP also 12 create a procedure specific to dealing with Aboriginal 13 actions in relation to Ipperwash Park in or around this 14 time? 15 A: I don't recollect that there was. 16 Q: And if you look at Tab 25, it appears 17 to be -- it's Inquiry Document 1007789. Title page is 18 'Ontario Provincial Police' and then there follows 19 several pages that set our amongst other things, the 20 basic elements to various Criminal Code violations. 21 And then if you keep going, you'll find 22 the documents called 'Ipperwash Provincial Park 23 Enforcement Plan'. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And there appears to be contact
391 numbers including your contact number and those of your 2 staff, is that right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Another page 'Roles and 5 Responsibilities as a Park Warden, Staffing Levels' et 6 cetera. Now does that refresh your memory at all? 7 A: Actually the Ipperwash Provincial 8 Park Enforcement Plan, it was a plan that we had in place 9 for all our parks for the May 24th weekend and for the 10 season. 11 This was updated annually and it was just 12 a standard plan and it appears to be an attachment to the 13 Ontario Provincial Police plan. 14 Q: All right. Then are you aware as to 15 whether or not it was practise to provide the OPP, the 16 local OPP with any such park enforcement plans for their 17 information? 18 A: Yes. This plan would have been 19 provided to both the Forest and Grand Bend Detachments. 20 In our case, prior to the season and throughout the 21 season if there were updates as well. 22 Q: All right. Was this in place then 23 for the 1993 season? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: I would like to make this the next
401 exhibit please. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-843, Your Honour. 3 4 ---EXHIBIT NO. P-843: Document number 1007789. 5 Report Re: "Ipperwash Provincial Park, 6 Enforcement Plan," May 1993 7 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And again, I'll ask for 9 it -- the private information of phone numbers be 10 redacted from the public copy. And what was the exhibit 11 number, sir? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-843. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: And if you go next to Tab 56, Inquiry 17 Document 1007798, it's an e-mail, reporting e-mail from 18 yourself to Ron Baldwin dated May 25, 1993. 19 Did you have a meeting with the OPP 20 Detective Sergeant Garnet Matthews from the Chatham 21 District Office in or around that time? 22 A: I don't recollect, but I did -- I had 23 several meetings throughout the course of doing regular 24 business with the -- with the Local Detachments and the 25 local officers. In this particular case, I don't recall.
411 Q: All right. And who -- who were your 2 main contacts with the local OPP? 3 A: At that particular time Beacock, 4 Sergeant Beacock out of Forest would certainly have been 5 one (1) of our main contacts, and I don't recall out of 6 Grand Bend. 7 Q: All right. And it appears that, 8 according to this e-mail, you had a meeting with 9 Detective Sergeant Matthews to discuss, essentially, the 10 exchange of contingency plans as between the OPP and Park 11 officials to deal with the Stoney Point Band issue; is 12 that right? 13 A: That's what it says in the memo, yes. 14 Q: All right. Did you prepare this 15 memo? 16 A: I believe I did, yes. 17 Q: And is it likely that you had the 18 meeting that's reflected? 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: I'd like to make this the next 21 exhibit, please? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-844, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-844: Document number 1007798. 25 E-mail to R. Baldwin from L. Kobayashi
421 Re: Meeting OPP Det. Sgt. Matthews," 2 May 25/93. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: Now, when you first learned -- well, 6 let me ask you this: When was the first occasion on 7 which you learned that it was the contention of the 8 Stoney Point First Nation Number 43 that the Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park was the site of ancient aboriginal burial 10 grounds? 11 A: It would have been at that particular 12 time when we were served the notice and the co-management 13 agreement. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: It was in the -- in one (1) of the 16 documents. 17 Q: And at Exhibit P-836, Tab 42 which is 18 the co-management document and in fact it is specifically 19 set out in that document, second page: 20 "Some of the lands within Ipperwash 21 Park are sacred burial grounds. These 22 areas must be recorded and documented 23 by our First Nations structure." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And does that constitute the first
431 notice that you had of this contention? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Did you make any inquiries at this 4 time to determine the feasibility of this contention? 5 A: Yes, I did actually. I actually 6 spoke with Maynard when we were walking through the Park 7 after determining where the information structure would 8 be placed. 9 We were -- Terry Humberstone and myself 10 and Maynard were walking up the road to the maintenance 11 building and I asked him at that time where the burial 12 sites were because that was the first time I'd actually 13 heard of this and he said underneath -- he pointed to 14 underneath the maintenance building, and that was it 15 really. 16 Q: Did you make any further inquiries 17 then after that -- after that was pointed to you? 18 A: Yes, actually, I spoke with several 19 of -- of the staff that actually constructed the 20 maintenance building. Don Matheson, the assistant 21 superintendent, was a superintendent at the Park at the 22 time and had spent many years growing up at the Park. 23 His -- Cater Matheson was the superintendent at Ipperwash 24 for quite a number of years and -- 25 Q: That was his father?
441 A: That was Don's father. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: And no one ever recollected seeing, 4 when they were constructing the maintenance building, 5 anything that would indicate that there was burial 6 grounds, as well as the fact that there was very little 7 soil there. The maintenance building was actually built 8 right on the shale limestone and the footings were placed 9 right there so there was no basement in the building at 10 all. 11 Q: And did -- did you pass along this 12 claim to anyone else within the MNR to research or 13 investigate? 14 A: I passed it onto Peter Sturdy who was 15 the -- my immediate supervisor at the time, and passed it 16 onto the native liaison officer who was there as well, 17 and I believe he heard the conversation as well so the 18 appropriate personnel with the Ministry, I would think, 19 were informed on my behalf. 20 Q: And did Mr. Sturdy advise you as to 21 what, if anything, he did as a result of receiving -- 22 receiving this notice? 23 A: I don't recollect at that particular 24 point in time. 25 Q: To your knowledge, was any search of
451 the Park records done? 2 A: I don't recollect. 3 Q: In the normal course, in and around 4 this time period '93, should a park superintendent become 5 aware of the claim that aboriginal burial grounds exist 6 within a Provincial Park, what course of action was to be 7 followed? 8 A: Well, first of all you -- I would 9 certainly report it to -- the reporting procedures would 10 be to inform the -- my immediate supervisor and, of 11 course, inform the district and then from there take 12 direction on how to deal with the situation. 13 In this particular case, I do know that we 14 had just gone through the management planning process for 15 Ipperwash Provincial Park and all the research and all 16 the data and all the file searching and so forth did not 17 indicate any burial grounds within the Park itself. 18 It certainly wasn't highlighted at the 19 time of -- of doing the investigation for the management 20 plan, nor did we have any -- any indication from any of 21 the participants that participated or responded to the 22 management plan that there was anything of -- such as a 23 burial site or burial grounds within the Park. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: So I would feel that -- at that
461 particular point in time, I felt fairly certain there 2 wasn't a burial -- burial sites or cemetery or anything 3 of that nature. 4 Q: And did you receive any direction one 5 way or another from either Mr. Sturdy or your district 6 manager in pursuance of this claim? 7 A: I don't recall. 8 Q: All right. Were you familiar with 9 the procedures set out in -- in the Cemeteries Act with 10 respect to validation of such a claim? 11 A: I believe that Peter Sturdy and I 12 spoke at one point in time about the Cemeteries Act and 13 how -- how, if bones or a burial site were encountered, 14 how to deal with it and that would have been under the 15 Cemeteries Act, yes. 16 Q: Did you raise the procedure under the 17 Cemeteries Act to either Carl George or Maynard T. 18 George? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: To your knowledge, was there any 24 change in procedures as to what a Park superintendent 25 should do following receipt of such a claim between 1993
471 and '95? 2 A: I do not recall. 3 Q: Now, by -- at this -- at this point 4 in time, in 1993, how would you describe your 5 relationship with the OPP in relation, specifically, to 6 the -- the recent actions of the Stoney Point First 7 Nation of May '93? 8 A: I would feel the relationship with 9 the Ontario Provincial Police was always excellent in our 10 particular area. They supported us in many situations 11 and provided excellent support and so our relationship 12 was obviously very strong. 13 Q: Did -- was the -- did the OPP ask you 14 to provide assistance or information in relation to the 15 activities of the Stoney Point First Nation for their 16 assistance? 17 A: We always shared information back and 18 forth, whether there be occurrences of any sort with -- 19 any major occurrences, especially, were always passed on 20 to the Ontario Provincial Police and they, in turn, also 21 passed on information to us if their officers were in the 22 Park and came across any major infractions. 23 It was just the day to day business, 24 really, for the Ontario Provincial Police to drop in and 25 it was also, on our part, at least on a weekly basis, we
481 would certainly drop into the local detachment and find 2 out if there was anything that we should -- that had come 3 up over the course of the week or weeks or days. 4 Q: And if we go back to Tab 56, Exhibit 5 P-844, this is the e-mail reflecting a meeting with 6 Detective Sergeant Matthews. 7 It appears that he requested or inquired 8 as to whether you had any facilities for an intelligence 9 communications centre in proximity to Ipperwash. Do you 10 recall that? 11 A: I don't recall that, no, but my memo 12 does say that, so. 13 Q: In any event, do you recall whether 14 or not you did provide a facility for that? 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: Thank you. And if you go next to Tab 17 59 which is Inquiry Document 2001214, letter dated May 18 26, 1993 and Officer Watkins on behalf Acting Staff 19 Sergeant Beacock to his superintendent. It reflects in 20 the second paragraph that at 9:40 hours on May 26th, Les 21 Kobayashi, Ipperwash Park Superintendent received a 22 telephone call from Maynard George. 23 And there was an indication that he stated 24 that it was becoming -- George stated it was becoming 25 increasingly more difficult keeping his people in a
491 passive state. And is this typical of the type of 2 reporting relationship that you had? 3 A: Yes, it is. 4 Q: And do you recall whether or not you 5 communicated with respect to this telephone call? 6 A: I don't recall. 7 Q: Is it likely that you made this 8 report? 9 A: It is likely, yes. 10 Q: I would like to make this the next 11 exhibit please. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-845, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-845: Document number 2001214 15 OPP letter to Supt. from A/S/Sgt. E.B. 16 Beacock Re: First Nations occupation 17 CFB Ipperwash Prov. Park, May 26/93. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Not at this time was the trailer -- 21 information trailer still in the Park as of May 26th? 22 A: Yes, it was. Actually it was there I 23 believe for quite a while after the -- after the May 24th 24 weekend. 25 Q: All right. To your knowledge, was
501 information still being handed out? 2 A: It had not. It had not been actually 3 during the May 24th weekend. There was only a short 4 period of time when they did disseminate information from 5 the booth. 6 Q: All right. At this point and time 7 what was your assessment of the risk posed to the Park 8 and the Park users as a result of the -- the interest by 9 the First Nation in the Park? 10 A: I -- I felt that actually at that 11 particular point in time that the risk was minimal. 12 Q: All right. Did you take extra 13 precautionary measures as a result of the situation? 14 A: I don't recollect. 15 Q: Do you recall whether or not the -- 16 the trailer was ultimately removed? 17 A: It did -- it was removed at some 18 point in time but I don't recollect exactly what date or 19 time but it was removed. 20 Q: And do you recollect the 21 circumstances under which it was removed? In other words 22 was it pursuant to a request from Park officials or was 23 it removed on the First Nation's own initiative? 24 A: I don't recall. 25 Q: If you'd kindly go to Tab 64, Inquiry
511 Document 1010388, it's a handwritten note here. Now it 2 appears to be addressed to you and it may be signed by 3 someone named Rob, do you -- do you recognize that 4 writing? 5 A: Yes, I do. It was Bob Crawford our 6 Senior Park Warden. 7 Q: It indicates that some time between 8 4:30 p.m. Thursday, June 3rd and 8:00 a.m. Friday, June 9 4th, the white trailer was removed from Ipperwash. Does 10 that refresh your memory as to when it was removed? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And this is a note you received? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: I would like to make this the next 15 exhibit please. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-846, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-846: Document number 1010388 19 Unidentified handwritten note to L. 20 Kobayashi Re: " Removal of white 21 trailer from Ipperwash", June 04/93 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: To your knowledge was any different 25 structure brought within the Park that summer?
521 A: Pardon me? 2 Q: Was there any different structure 3 brought back into the Park? 4 A: Not to my knowledge. 5 Q: Okay. Now do you recall 6 participating in any meetings which concerned the 7 occupation of Camp Ipperwash in 1993? 8 A: I don't recollect. 9 Q: Were you made aware of any meetings 10 between the OPP and the military with respect to the 11 occupation of Camp Ipperwash between May and June 1993? 12 A: I don't recollect. Perhaps there 13 was. 14 Q: Did you continue to have discussions 15 with Chief Tom Bressette concerning the actions of the 16 Stoney Point First Nation Group in relation to the Park? 17 A: I don't recollect if I did 18 personally. 19 Q: Do you recall being apprised of any 20 such conversations? 21 A: I don't recollect at this time. 22 Q: All right. If you look at Tab 66 23 please. Inquiry Document Number 1010386, an e-mail dated 24 June 11, 1993, from yourself to Terry Humberstone -- 25 A: Hmm hmm.
531 Q: -- indicates that you had a meeting 2 with Chief Bressette and Myles Bressette on June 11, 1993 3 and it appears that he provided you with some -- his 4 views with respect to how the -- the group, the Maynard 5 T. Group, should be treated? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Yes, I do recall the meeting. 10 Q: All right. And what were his views 11 as expressed to you at that meeting? 12 A: Basically, he just reaffirmed that he 13 felt that the Maynard T. George assertion of ownership 14 would -- was creating a situation that if they were in 15 the Park that they should be treated as trespassers and 16 that it could lead onto other things, that he wasn't 17 supportive of their assertion. 18 We also spoke about other things such as 19 the opening of the visitors centre and if he would attend 20 and -- and -- but in respect of the assertion of 21 ownership I believe those are the key -- key points. 22 Q: All right. I'd like -- I'd like to 23 make this the next exhibit, please? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-847, Your Honour. 25
541 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-847: Document number 1010386. 2 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to Terry 3 Humberstone Re: Kobayashi/Chief 4 Bressette meeting June 11/'93 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: Now, did you have a subsequent 8 meeting with Maynard T. George on June the 14th, 1993 at 9 the Park? 10 A: I believe I did. 11 Q: And did you prepare a report 12 outlining the contents of that meeting? 13 A: I don't recollect if I did, but I -- 14 I'm sure I did. 15 Q: If we go to Tab 61, please, Inquiry 16 Document 1009456. This reflects a meeting held with then 17 Chief Maynard George on June 14th, 1993 at the Park and 18 you were -- were you advised that he was elected on June 19 the 12th and would be appointing elders to his cabinet on 20 June the 17th? 21 A: I was apprised of that. 22 Q: Did he also request that you meet at 23 Ipperwash to provide you with copies of maps which would 24 identify the lands, which is known as Ipperwash 25 Provincial Park, to be, in fact, Stoney Point land and
551 that there was an area that was a sacred burial site? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did he provide you with those -- the 4 maps that are listed there? 5 A: He -- he did provide those documents. 6 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether or 7 not on any of those documents whether there was a burial 8 site marked, or more than one (1)? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q: And it appears that he's raising 11 again the -- the principles that were in his co- 12 management agreement, that half of the revenues of the 13 campsites, for example. 14 A: I don't recall if he did. 15 Q: All right. Did he advise you that -- 16 that his people wanted things to proceed in a non- 17 confrontational manner, over the summer? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: That they would be searching the area 20 for burial sites and other artifacts? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And did you agree to that? 23 A: I believe I did. 24 Q: Did they also indicate they were 25 going to have a Remembrance Day ceremony?
561 A: I believe they did. 2 Q: And did you agree to that? 3 A: I believe I did. 4 Q: Did they, in fact, to your knowledge, 5 carry out any searches for artifacts or burial sites that 6 summer? 7 A: Not to my knowledge. 8 Q: Was a Remembrance Day ceremony held 9 later in that season? 10 A: Not to my recollection. 11 Q: Okay. Did you provide -- did -- did 12 he advise you that -- that they -- this wasn't about 13 money but rather that they wanted their sacred area -- 14 area returned to the -- to the people? 15 A: I don't recall that. 16 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 17 next exhibit, please? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-848, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-848: Document number 1009456. 21 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to T. 22 Humberstone Re: "Meeting Maynard George 23 and L. Kobayashi , June 14/93," June 24 /'93 25
571 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Now, is this your first indication 3 that they are -- in fact, that this group was claiming 4 title to the Park? 5 A: I believe it was. 6 Q: And that they were claiming the land 7 from Ravenswood to Parkhill to Goderich? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: What was your reaction to that? 10 A: Surprise. 11 Q: All right. Did you advise the OPP of 12 -- of this conversation and claim? 13 A: I don't recollect if I did. 14 Q: Did this advice alter, in any way, 15 your assessment of the level of risk that this route 16 might pose to the Park? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: I believe I was concerned. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. Did you communicate this 22 concern? 23 A: I'm sure I did. 24 Q: Now I understand that -- that Howard 25 Hampton was -- who was then the minister of the Natural
581 Resources, attended at the Pinery Park on June the 18th, 2 1993. 3 A: Yes, we had a -- a brand new facility 4 called the visitors centre at Pinery and we were having 5 the grand opening at that particular time. 6 Q: Were representatives of the Kettle 7 and Stony Point First Nation invited? 8 A: Yes, they were. 9 Q: Were representatives of the Stoney 10 Point First Nation invited? 11 A: No, they were not. 12 Q: And how did they respond to not being 13 invited? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I believe they were a little 18 disappointed that they weren't included in the invitation 19 list. 20 Q: And did Mr. -- did Maynard T. George 21 communicate his dissatisfaction to you? 22 A: I don't recall if Maynard did, but I 23 believe the -- it was Janet Cloud, an Elder, I believe, 24 expressed concerns. 25 Q: All right. If you'd go to Tab 69,
591 Inquiry document number 1010379. It's an e-mail dated 2 June 18, 1993 from yourself to Ron Baldwin. 3 Did you -- did you draft and prepare this 4 e-mail? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: It indicates that you had a meeting 10 with Maynard T. George and Janet Cloud on June the 18th, 11 1993. 12 Does that refresh your memory? 13 A: Yes, it does. 14 Q: And I note that part way through, 15 half way through, you were advised that, quote: 16 "If the Federal Government proceeded to 17 get an injunction to have them removed 18 from Camp Ipperwash, they would be 19 taking ownership of Ipperwash 20 Provincial Park and Pinery Provincial 21 Park. 22 Janet Cloud informed me that their 23 people have home sites already picked 24 out and they would be taking possession 25 of them should they moved off the base.
601 Maynard informed me that they may be 2 there [sorry] that there may be 3 provoked into taking action and being 4 aggressive." 5 Do you recall this indication being 6 provided to you? 7 A: Yes, I do. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. Can we make this the next 9 exhibit, please. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-849, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-849: Document number 1010379. 13 E-mail to R. Baldwin from L. Kobayashi 14 Re: "Meeting Maynard George June 15 18/93." 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: In conclusion, you indicated: 19 "I feel they left on good terms as 20 Maynard thanked for me for the meeting 21 and informed me that he would be 22 keeping me informed as events 23 occurred." 24 Was that your impression? 25 A: Yes, it was.
611 Q: Did you form any -- any -- sorry, is 2 this the first indication that you had that the Stoney 3 Point First Nation might try to occupy the entire Park? 4 A: I believe it was. 5 Q: And did this alter your risk 6 assessment at all? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I'm sure it did. Yes, it did. 11 Q: Did you advise your superiors of this 12 information? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: And did you advise the police? 15 A: I do not have a recollection if I 16 did. At that particular time as well, the information 17 was going to the district and the individual -- the 18 compliance specialist would have had much more direct 19 contact with the OPP in respect to this issue than I 20 would. 21 So I'm sure that Brett Hodsdon, at the 22 time, would have been the -- would have received this 23 information. 24 Q: All right. And that would be his job 25 to convey it to the OPP?
621 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: Now, were any measures taken to 3 safeguard against such an action or to ensure that such 4 an action would not be taken? 5 A: I don't recollect. 6 Q: At this point in time, that is June 7 of '93, were you at liberty to negotiate with the Stoney 8 Point First Nation regarding rights or entitlements to 9 the Park? 10 A: I was not. 11 Q: Were any substantive negotiations, 12 regarding the Park and its use, going on, as between the 13 MNR and the First Nation, to your knowledge? 14 A: Not to my knowledge. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Was there any underlying reason as 19 from the MNR's perspective as to why no substantive 20 negotiations were being entered into? 21 A: I don't recollect at the -- at that 22 time. 23 Q: Was there any discussion about 24 recognition of Stoney Point First Nation as a Band at the 25 level -- the same level as the Kettle and Stony Point
631 First Nation? 2 A: At that time the direction that I had 3 and understood was that we would be dealing with Kettle 4 Point and Stony Point directly, as the recognized Band of 5 status, and that Stoney Point was not a recognized Band 6 at that particular point in time. 7 Q: All right. Now, as a result of the 8 partial occupation of the adjacent Camp Ipperwash lands, 9 did you observe any alteration in -- or at least any 10 pattern in incidents between the Park users and First 11 Nation persons occupying the land? 12 A: From about 1993 to 1995 there was an 13 escalation, or increased frequency of occurrences that 14 were occurring at the Ipperwash Park itself, and 15 surrounding the adjacent roadways and beach areas to 16 Ipperwash Provincial Park there had been heightened or 17 escalation on the activities. 18 Q: And is this an escalation from the 19 year before, 1992? 20 A: Yes. Yes. 21 Q: And you were being apprised of any 22 altercations or of altercations between the military and 23 the occupiers? 24 A: We had a -- a fairly good working 25 relationship with the DND staff and I don't recollect at
641 this time if there was any at that period -- between that 2 period of time. 3 Q: If you would go to Tab 72 please, 4 Inquiry Document 1010376, an e-mail from yourself to Ron 5 Baldwin. And it indicates: 6 "Reference: Ipperwash Park noise and 7 fireworks occurrence." 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: "Approximately 11:15 a.m. I was 10 advised of an incident at Ipperwash 11 Park last evening. Native persons were 12 igniting fireworks on the dunes area 13 just north of Ipperwash Park on Camp 14 Ipperwash. 15 Park user lodged a noise complaint. 16 Ipperwash Enforcement staff contacted 17 the military police at Camp Ipperwash. 18 No response to deal with the situation. 19 Military police contacted the OPP and 20 once again no response." 21 Do you recall being advised of this? 22 A: I do. 23 Q: All right. Now it indicates that you 24 also were -- at least that you were advised by Mr. 25 Varley, your Park technician, that he was informed that
651 the military police officer indicated that, on July the 2 5th, a thirty (30) day notice will be up and that they 3 would be removing the Natives from the base and removing 4 their structure. 5 Do you recall receiving that advice? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: I would like to make this the next 8 exhibit please. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-850, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-850: Document number 1010376. 12 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to R. Baldwin 13 Re: "Ipperwash Park noise and fireworks 14 occurrence", June 28/95. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: To your knowledge, did the military 18 enforce its notice to vacate and remove the occupiers? 19 A: I don't believe so. 20 Q: Do you have any information as to why 21 they did not? 22 A: No, I do not. 23 Q: Now from this point forward, what was 24 the extent of the interaction with the DND and your 25 officials, in terms of co-ordinating efforts, et cetera?
661 A: I would say the interaction was more 2 information transfer. There was not a lot of 3 coordination going on at that -- that particular time, 4 but I believe it was just an information transfer. 5 Q: All right. In retrospect, could that 6 have been something that -- that should have been 7 improved? 8 A: At that particular time I don't -- I 9 believe the information transfer was sufficient. 10 Q: Did the fact that, at least the 11 advice that the military was going to be remov -- 12 forcibly removing the Aboriginal people cause concern to 13 your Park staff? 14 A: Yes, it did. 15 Q: And do you know what the basis of 16 that concern was? 17 A: Perhaps just an escalation of 18 activities and -- and confrontation. I believe you have 19 to remember that these people were working alone at 20 night, Park technicians and Park wardens and as well they 21 lived in the immediate area of the Park, therefore they 22 would have certain -- certainly concerns in regards to -- 23 and -- and concerns for the safety of the visitors; that 24 was paramount as well. 25 Q: All right. Did you take any
671 additional measures around the Park to enhance the 2 security of the Park around this time? 3 A: I don't recollect that I did. 4 Q: Do you recall having a meeting with 5 the OPP representatives of the Municipality and 6 representatives from the Kettle and Stony Point First 7 Nation on or about June the 30th, 1993? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Got to Tab 73, please. Inquiry 10 Document Number 1010373 reflects a meeting that occurred 11 on June the 29th, 1993, with the various people listed in 12 this notice. Is that -- did that happen? 13 A: Yes, it did. 14 Q: Make this the next exhibit, please? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-851, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-851: Document number 1010373. 18 E- mail from L. Kobayashi Re: " 19 Bosanquet TWP. meeting June 29/93", 20 June 30/'93. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: Do you recall what the purpose of 24 this meeting was? 25 A: Once again just a -- an information
681 transfer, if you will. I do believe we spoke about the 2 impacts on the local community, residents, tourism 3 impacts and so forth because the -- the situation was -- 4 was escalating at -- at that particular point in time. 5 Q: All right. And I see that one (1) 6 of the attendees was Inspector John Carson? Is that your 7 recollection? 8 A: I believe he was there, yes. 9 Q: All right. And also there was a 10 representative from the Forest municipality? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the mayor of Grand Bend was 13 there? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Norman Shawnoo is it -- 16 A: It would be. 17 Q: -- from Kettle and Stony Point? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And persons -- let's see, 20 a Sergeant Steve MacDonald from the local Forest 21 detachment? 22 A: I believe so. 23 Q: And some representatives from your 24 organization? 25 A: Yes.
691 Q: And the last concern, or at least 2 listed last, it was raised is: 3 "If Maynard's group is evicted he has 4 indicated that they are going somewhere 5 else, provincial parks or township land 6 or county land." 7 Was that raised and discussed at this 8 meeting? 9 A: Yes, it was. 10 Q: And as a result of this meeting were 11 any decisions taken? 12 A: I don't recall if there was at this 13 particular point in time there was -- there was a lot 14 going on at that particular time so... 15 Q: And you indicated earlier that there 16 was an escalation in occurrences as between Park users 17 and occupiers from the Army Camp. 18 Did you have a specific practice or 19 protocol in place with respect to the recording and 20 reporting of these occurrences? 21 A: Yes, we did. Any major occurrences 22 went on what we called the Incident Risk Management 23 Branch who requested an incident report. So if there was 24 personal injury or liability associated with any of the 25 incidents there was a form that we filled out and sent it
701 up to -- to the Regional office and to Toronto. 2 Also there was what we called the 3 Occurrence Report which is any occurrences or any issues 4 that a park warden or any staff member encountered that 5 was of a enforcement nature or first aid nature, any -- 6 anything out of the ordinary, we had what we called the 7 Occurrence Report and it was completed every day at the 8 particular time of -- at the end of the shifts and put in 9 a log book. 10 Q: Were you -- did you review the 11 occurrence reports as a matter of practice? 12 A: Weekly. They ended up on my desk 13 every Monday morning and unless they were serious -- if 14 they were very serious in nature they would send them up 15 to me immediately or I would check the log book on a 16 daily basis, but yes I would sign off on them and then 17 forward them to the -- to the Regional Office, which was 18 Peter Sturdy's office. 19 Q: Did Mr. Sturdy receive copies of all 20 occurrence reports? 21 A: At that time they received all the 22 copies. His office received the copies actually, they 23 went to a Park Operations Supervisor who was working with 24 Peter Sturdy, the Zone Manager. 25 Q: All right. And did you have the same
711 practice for major occurrences, in other words, you would 2 receive a copy, review it and you'd send it on to Peter 3 Sturdy? 4 A: Correct. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Now in or around this time, did you 9 also put into practice a -- or into writing, a procedure 10 with respect to dealing with -- for incidents involving 11 First Nations persons? 12 A: Yes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And if you would go to Tab 81, 17 please, Inquiry document number 1010367. An e-mail from 18 yourself dated July 16, 1993 entitled, "Ipperwash 19 Enforcement." 20 Does this settle out -- set -- set out the 21 procedure that you put into place to specifically deal 22 with occurrences involving First Nations people at the 23 Park? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
721 A: Yes. 2 Q: In other words, your Park staff would 3 handle more minor infractions and -- but if a major 4 infraction were to occur, then the OPP were to be 5 contacted and they were to be asked to deal with it? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All situations to be treated in a 8 non-confrontational manner by the MNR staff? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. I'd like to make this the next 11 exhibit, please. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-852, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-852: Document number 1010367 15 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to 16 Distribution List Re: Ipperwash ENF., 17 July 16/93. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Now at some point over the course of 21 the summer of 1993, did members from the Stoney Point 22 First Nation set up what was, in effect, a toll booth in 23 or around the Park? 24 A: Yes. Actually, there is an area 25 adjacent to the Park, that it was a township roadway
731 called Matheson Drive and I believe they set up -- 2 initially, I believe they set up a toll gate down towards 3 the boat launch area which is on the -- adjacent to the 4 water, requesting -- 5 Q: Is that -- is that -- I'm sorry. Is 6 that leading, you know, we have a map behind you -- 7 A: Sorry. 8 Q: This is a map of the Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park, an aerial view that was taken, I 10 believe, in 2003; is that right? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: All right. And maybe you can just 13 grab the microphone so that -- not that one, sorry. 14 A: Oh. 15 Q: The handheld one. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And just to familiarize everyone with 20 what you're -- you're looking at, perhaps you can just 21 point out the boundaries and the -- the roads around the 22 Park? 23 A: Is this on? 24 Q: Apparently it's on, yes. 25 A: This is the county road that's
741 adjacent to the Park and this is Ipperwash proper where 2 the Crown beach areas are. 3 Q: All right. And just -- you're 4 pointing at -- is that also known as Army Camp Road? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And what side of the Park is that on, 7 bordering? 8 A: That would be on the west side. 9 Q: Right. And then the road going to -- 10 towards the west that you -- parallelling the beach? 11 A: This road is the, once again, the -- 12 the county road and it head -- it heads towards the west 13 and we have Crown beach areas and parking lots and so 14 forth down on this road, and access to the main beach. 15 Q: Is that also known as East Parkway 16 Drive? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Thank you. 19 A: This area here is the Matheson Drive 20 access area, and it's adjacent to the Park and it's a 21 township roadway. 22 Q: And does it border, in part, Camp 23 Ipperwash? 24 A: Yes, it does. Camp Ipperwash is here 25 in the south --
751 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- and on the east of the road, and 3 this is the use area of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 4 Q: All right. And just -- the road, 5 Matheson Drive, bends towards the lake on -- bordering 6 DND and Park property; is that right? 7 A: That's correct. And also there's a 8 boat launch area here. 9 Q: At the beach? 10 A: At the beach. 11 Q: At the end of Matheson Drive? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Thank you. All right. So where 14 approximately, is your understanding, that the toll -- 15 the first toll booth was set up? 16 A: I believe the first toll booth, if my 17 memory serves me correctly, was in this particular area 18 here. 19 Q: Towards the boat launch? 20 A: That's correct. And this is where 21 there was interactions. The Park users would walk up on 22 to the military beach here -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- and across our boundary which is 25 here and across Matheson Drive and onto their beach. And
761 I believe this is where the initial toll booth was set up 2 here. 3 Q: All right. Just for clarification, 4 you have a -- you had the beach front and on the west 5 part of the beach is -- but on the east part side of the 6 Park is Park beach and in towar -- further down on the 7 east side is -- is DND beach? 8 A: Correct. This is all DND beach here 9 and this is our particular part of the beach here. 10 Q: All right. And you said that gave 11 rise to some -- some occurrences, did it? 12 A: There were many occurrences here at 13 this particular area, mainly because it appeared to be -- 14 there's a lot more traffic and visitation and people 15 going back and forth here. And along this area is people 16 that actually access the -- the boat ramp, would park 17 their vehicles and so forth. 18 Q: Now is the boat launch part of 19 municipal -- a municipal boat launch, do you know, or was 20 it DND? 21 A: It was the municipal boat launch. 22 Q: Okay. And up to this point in time, 23 did Park users, to your knowledge, commonly cross over to 24 the DND beach and the boat launch? 25 A: It was -- primarily the most active
771 area was the DND beach. It's a very pristine beach and 2 obviously it's a much larger area and a beautiful 3 landscape to walk in. Where our beach was a very short 4 portion of beach here on this side. And this was the 5 main campground area in here. 6 Q: And is that also in the vicinity of 7 the Stoney Point, the main camp area? 8 A: This particular area here is what we 9 referred to as Stoney Point. This non-developed area 10 right in here actually is where they collected the 11 shards. 12 Q: And on this map it -- its an area, a 13 point of land that juts our into the water in about 14 halfway through the beach area. 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And did the toll booth move 17 somewhere? 18 A: I believe it moved out here closer to 19 -- closer to the county Army Camp Road in this particular 20 area. 21 Q: So Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: But the toll booth was never within 24 the confines of the Park, to your knowledge? 25 A: Not to my knowledge.
781 Q: All right. Were there further 2 occurrences when it moved to the Matheson Drive, Army 3 Camp Road location? 4 A: I believe there were some people that 5 were -- were very upset. I believe there was an 6 occurrence report where someone complained about the toll 7 booth. 8 Q: All right. And do you recall how 9 long it was that the toll booth was set up at either 10 location? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: Do you recall approximately when it 13 was set up? 14 A: No, I do not. 15 Q: If you would look at Tab 77 which is 16 Inquiry Document 2022 -- sorry, 2002705. It's an e-mail 17 from Brett Hodsdon, your MNR compliance specialist, dated 18 July 14, 1993. 19 So is it likely that you would have 20 received a copy of this e-mail regarding the toll booth? 21 A: It's likely, yes. 22 Q: This indicates that on Monday, July 23 12th, 1993: 24 "Members of the group occupying Camp 25 Ipperwash moved the white booth, which
791 had previously been parked at Ipperwash 2 Provincial Park, then removed to the 3 Army Camp down to a location on the 4 beach immediately east of Ipperwash 5 Provincial Park on Matheson Boulevard, 6 a township road which surrounds the 7 beach. 8 So that's the boat launch area; is that 9 right? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And does this refresh your memory as 12 to when that commenced then? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And it indicates that on Tuesday, 15 July 13th: 16 "Three (3) members of the group started 17 collecting money from persons using the 18 beach in front of the Army Camp." 19 A: That is correct. 20 Q: All right. And was this the source 21 of some occurrences? 22 A: There were quite a number of 23 complaints and so forth because of this. Because the 24 traditionally use pattern was that our users used the DND 25 at no charge. And of course when they were being
801 charged, or attempted to be charged, then that it was 2 pretty inflammatory. 3 Q: All right. I would like to make this 4 -- well maybe I'll just make one more point. 5 On the second page there seems to be a 6 written update that on July 14th, 1993 Park staff 7 reported that no one was on duty at the booth collecting 8 fees, but that the weather was poor. 9 So does that give you an indication that 10 it was still up on the 14th? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: I would like to make this the next 13 exhibit please. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-853, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-853: Document number 2002705. 17 E-mail from Brett Hodsdon Re: " 18 Ipperwash Situation" - refers to L. 19 Kobayashi, July 15/93. 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 22 be a good point to take a morning break, Ms. Vella? 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Certainly. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 25 be all right?
811 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Certainly. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does this 3 fit in with your -- we'll take a morning break now. 4 THE WITNESS: All right. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 6 for fifteen (15) minutes. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 11:49 a.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 12:07 p.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 12 resumed, please be seated. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Just before the break we were 16 discussing the topic of the -- the toll booth that was 17 set up and you indicated that you did receive notices of 18 occurrences from time to time and I'd like you to look at 19 Tab 79, please, it's Inquiry Document Number 1010365. 20 It's a memorandum to yourself from Scott Varley dated 21 July 16, 1993, and the subject is, "Camper Comments 22 Concerning Native Situation." 23 Mr. Varley is reporting to you that 24 starting on the July -- July 14th the Park start -- has 25 kept track of campers' comments and complaints with
821 respect to the native situation. And is this in relation 2 to the toll booth or -- or occurrences or both? 3 A: Both. 4 Q: Both? 5 A: Both, yes. 6 Q: I'd like to make this the next 7 exhibit, please? 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-854, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-854: Document number 1010365 11 Memo to L. Kobayashi from Scott D. 12 Varley , Parks Technician Re: " Camper 13 comments concerning native situation," 14 July 16/'93. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: Now, did you view the -- the toll 18 booth and the accompanying occurrences as a -- as a 19 serious risk to your Park? 20 A: Definitely a risk, perhaps not 21 serious because it wasn't occurring on the Park itself 22 but I believe at that time we -- we notified all the 23 campers and users not to go onto the DND beach and create 24 any confrontation at all. 25 Q: All right. And if you go to Tab 80
831 Inquiry Document Number 1010366, a memorandum dated July 2 16, 1993, another one from Scott Varley to yourself and 3 this appears to report an occurrence that occurred at the 4 toll booth when it was at the boat launch area? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: You recall being apprised of this 7 event? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And based on this report did it 13 appear to you that the toll was really intended for those 14 who wished to use the DND portion of the beach? 15 A: That is correct. 16 Q: Not the park portion of the beach? 17 A: That is correct. 18 Q: Make this the next exhibit, please? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-855, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-855: Document number 1010366. 22 Memo to L. Kobayashi from Scott D. 23 Varley, Parks Technician Re: " Event at 24 the yellow gates concerning native 25 persons.", July 16/93.
841 2 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 3 Q: Now, to your knowledge was the 4 trailer and the toll keepers eventually removed from the 5 vicinity of the Park? 6 A: I believe it was, yes. 7 Q: And do you recall at -- at -- what 8 prompted the removal? 9 A: I do not recollect at this time. 10 Q: Would you go to Tab 82, please, 11 Inquiry Document Number 1010364 an e-mail from yourself 12 to Ron Baldwin dated July 16,1993? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And is this a report that you 15 provided to Mr. Baldwin outlining your understanding of 16 the circumstances involving the toll booth? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And do you recall what 22 was going on the, as at July 16th, and I'm wondering 23 whether this is the right date. I note part way through 24 you talk about a -- a notification on July the 17th, 18th 25 and 19th so maybe that -- I might be misreading the date
851 of this e-mail or there's a typo on it. 2 A: I believe on the 16th there was the 3 first part where -- until where it says on July 17th in 4 the e-mail. 5 Q: Oh, all right. So you added to it? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And so what was the situation 8 then, as of July 19th? First of all, was the toll booth 9 still operating? 10 A: I don't believe -- I don't believe it 11 was. I believe the Ontario Provincial Police took some 12 actions that would create the situation -- that would 13 stabilize the situation and therefore the toll booth was, 14 I believe, was removed. 15 I don't recall it being there after that 16 particular point in time. 17 Q: All right. Make this the next 18 exhibit, please. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-856, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-856: Document number 1010364. 22 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to R. Baldwin 23 Re: "Ipperwash, the story continues." 24 July 16/'93. 25
861 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Now did you take any measures to 3 increase the level of security at the Park in or around 4 this time period? 5 A: I believe I requested additional 6 funding and additional support from the district and the 7 zone, which would be Peter Sturdy. 8 Q: And is that to have increased 9 personnel on site at the Park? 10 A: That's correct. I believe at that 11 time I didn't want to see our officers working alone at 12 night, I preferred that they be two (2) people, and I was 13 more concerned about their safety and the activities 14 seemed to be escalating a wee bit, so. 15 Q: All right. And did you receive 16 further funding to hire or at least assign further 17 personnel, as you suggested, to the Park? 18 A: I don't recollect the -- at this 19 point in time. 20 Q: And as a result, how did you cope 21 with -- with the situation in terms of doubling up 22 personnel at the Park? 23 A: The staff at Pinery, I believe, were 24 actually -- some of them were -- the Park wardens were 25 scheduled to assist at Ipperwash as well, so the one (1)
871 -- the two (2) parks were under the same administration 2 so it was easy to -- to send staff down to Ipperwash. 3 Q: And you say it was easy to do that. 4 Did that not leave Pinery short staffed? 5 A: It did so, but Ipperwash was seen to 6 be a little more inflammatory situation than Pinery at 7 the time. 8 Q: All right. If you go to Tab 85, 9 which is Inquiry document 10110361. 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: There's a memorandum from Terry -- is 12 that Terry Humberstone, to yourself dated July 20, 1993? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: That actually was from Terry Crabe my 19 enforcement co-ordinator -- 20 Q: Thank you. 21 A: -- at the time. 22 Q: Okay. And it reflects the -- a 23 schedule to have twenty-four (24) hour presence for the 24 next two (2) weeks. 25 This is from July 20th and forward?
881 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And there's an attached 3 memorandum dated July 16, 1993. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: From yourself? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: I'd like to make this the next 8 exhibit, please. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-857, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-857: Document number 1010361. 12 Memo to L. Kobayashi from " Terry" 13 Re:"Ipperwash enforcement ",. Copy of 14 e-mail from L. Kobayashi July 16/93 Re: " 15 Ipperwash ENF." and 1993/4 - Ipperwash 16 overtime schedule for Park Wardens, July 17 20/93 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: And I should indicate that, unless I 21 ask for just a particular document, it should be the 22 entire Inquiry document number that's the exhibit. 23 Now, on or about July 26th, 1993 did a 24 confrontation between Park users and First Nation 25 occupiers take place that -- that -- that came to your
891 attention? 2 A: I don't recollect that particular 3 date. 4 Q: Do you recollect the event? 5 A: There were several events, so if you 6 could -- 7 Q: All right. 8 A: -- give me some clarification there. 9 Q: Certainly. If you would got to Tab 10 87, Inquiry document number 1010358, memorandum from 11 Terry Humberstone to Ron Baldwin, dated July 27, 1993. 12 It indicates that an incident occurred at 13 approximately 10:00 p.m. July 26th, 1993 involving the 14 military attempting to place a number of cement cubes 15 down at their portion of the beach, I take it, to divide 16 or border off their beach from the Ipperwash Park beach? 17 That there was then an -- an altercation 18 with First Nations persons and that, in turn, attracted 19 approximately a hundred (100) park users ultimately to 20 apparently take the side of the military with respect to 21 opposing the First Nation's attempts to remove the cement 22 cubes. 23 Does that ring a bell? 24 A: Yes, it does. 25 Q: And was this a particularly
901 noteworthy event in terms of a level of severity or 2 seriousness of the occurrence? 3 A: Yes. We -- we could see that things 4 were somewhat -- tensions were starting to heighten 5 between campers and the occupiers of Camp Ipperwash. 6 Q: And was this the first time that 7 there was an actual confrontation by Park users with -- 8 directly with First Nations persons, at this scale? 9 A: Of this scale, yes. 10 Q: I would like to make this the next 11 exhibit please. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-858, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-858: Document number 1010358 15 E- mail to R. Baldwin from T. 16 Humberstone Re: " Ipperwash P.P. 17 Confrontation" July 27/93. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Now I would like to take you next to 21 Tab 88, Inquiry Document Number 1010356, e-mail dated 22 July 30th, 1993 from yourself to Terry Humberstone. 23 A: I'm sorry what document was this? 24 Q: It's Tab 88 please. 25 A: Okay. Yes.
911 Q: Now this appears to -- this suggests 2 that you had a meeting with Maynard T. George in the 3 aftermath of that event of July 26th? 4 A: I don't recall. 5 Q: You don't recall? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: All right. Do you recall there being 8 a further altercation between Park users and the First 9 Nation occupiers on the 27th of July, the -- the night 10 following? 11 A: I would need clarification to -- on - 12 - on what occurred on that particular date. 13 Q: All right. You provided this report 14 to Mr. Humberstone though, on the 30th? 15 A: I believe I did, yes. 16 Q: And it accurately set out the -- the 17 incidents insofar as you knew them at the time? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: I'd like to make this the next 20 exhibit please. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-859, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-859: Document number 1010356. 24 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to T. 25 Humberstone Re: "Incidents July 26 and
921 27 Ipperwash," July 30/93. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: Now, at this point in time, given the 5 -- the large confrontation that occurred on the 26th, did 6 you consider closing the Park? 7 A: I don't recall. 8 Q: Did you enter into any type of -- of 9 risk assessment in light of the scale of this -- of this 10 altercation? 11 A: I'm sure I -- I gave consideration to 12 -- to the situation and -- but I don't recall, to be 13 honest with you. 14 Q: And you indicated earlier that you 15 had instructed that your staff take a non confrontational 16 approach with First Nations persons whenever there were 17 such altercations. 18 Did that approach change at all at this 19 time? 20 A: I don't believe it did. 21 Q: And -- and can I ask you why it did 22 not? 23 A: The Ontario Provincial Police really 24 were the lead agency that would look after any major 25 situations of this nature and our staff were basically
931 eyes and ears. And we certainly didn't want to place any 2 of them into a situation that would jeopardize their 3 safety or the safety of the visitors so. 4 I don't think things changed from the 5 previous direction that we had provided to stay non 6 confrontational. And basically pass on the information. 7 Q: And were you relying on the OPP then, 8 to assist in the event that things heated up too much. 9 A: Oh yes. The OPP were very visible in 10 the area. I believe that they were making an increased 11 number of patrols that they were doing as well. Hmm hmm. 12 Q: So part of the strategy was to have a 13 -- a higher visibil -- visibility, in terms of your 14 staff? 15 A: Yes. Yes. 16 Q: And was there a similar approach from 17 the OPP? 18 A: I believe there was. The frequency 19 of patrols was much more frequent than they would be 20 under normal circumstances. 21 Q: And what about the military? Did you 22 -- did they increase their presence, to your knowledge, 23 in an effort to patrol their side of the beach? 24 A: Not to my knowledge. 25 Q: All right. Now, did occurrences --
941 was -- was there any alteration in the frequency or 2 severity of occurrences after July of '93 and for the 3 balance of the season? 4 A: They were escalating, yes. 5 Q: All right. And I wonder if you might 6 go to Tab 90, Inquiry Document Number 1010351? It's an 7 e-mail from yourself to Ron Baldwin dated August 18, 8 1993. 9 Is this a report that you made to Mr. 10 Baldwin giving him an up-to-date -- update of the status 11 at the Park? 12 A: Yes, it is. 13 Q: It says that: 14 "As you are aware from Brett's e- 15 mail..." 16 Is that Brett Hodgson? 17 A: Yes, it is. 18 Q: "...e-mail yesterday things are 19 heating up. Park Warden McIntyre 20 contacted me last night and advised me 21 that Sergeant Doug McGuire, Military 22 Police, informed him that the latest 23 information or rumour was that the Camp 24 water pumphouse located in Ipperwash 25 Provincial Park, the cottages on the
951 14th concession and the barracks at the 2 Base could be potentially targeted to 3 be damaged. The concern was there for 4 the next few nights. 5 Sergeant McGuire requested assistance 6 to provide coverage for the pumphouse 7 and other Park facilities. I directed 8 Park Warden McIntyre and Security 9 Officer Miller to provide coverage of 10 Park facilities until 8:00 a.m. 11 The Military had MP's cover the 12 security of the pumphouse. The OPP had 13 an unmarked vehicle and two (2) 14 plainclothes officers at the 14th [the 15 14th concession I assume you mean]." 16 Does that refresh your memory with respect 17 to what was happening at that time? 18 A: Yes, that's actually what did occur. 19 Park Warden McIntyre and Security Officer Miller were 20 there to be eyes and ears only. 21 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 22 next exhibit, please? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-860, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-860: Document number 1010351.
961 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to R. Baldwin 2 Re: "Update as of Aug. 18/93". 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: Now do you recall whether, in fact, 6 any damage occurred to any Park facilities in or around 7 this period? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: That would likely be documented had 10 it been? 11 A: Oh, yes. Yeah. It would be on the 12 occurrence report. 13 Q: Thank you. And did you raise these 14 rumours, the rumours that the Park facilities might be 15 targeted, with either Maynard T. George or Carl George or 16 anyone on their behalf? 17 A: I don't recall. 18 Q: Is that something which, on 19 reflection, would have been available to for you to do, 20 to initiate? 21 A: I don't recall if they were available 22 or not to be honest with you. 23 Q: Now, let me ask you this: At this 24 point in time, late summer 1993, do you still have a line 25 of communication open with -- with either Maynard T.
971 George or Carl George? 2 A: I would say that very little had 3 changed. If indeed they were -- were available to 4 contact I'm sure that I would have been able to contact 5 them if they were at the Base, but I don't recall if they 6 were there or not. 7 Q: All right. And just for our 8 information, when you wished to initiate contact with one 9 (1) of these individuals where would you go or how would 10 that take place? 11 A: I don't believe from this time on 12 that I did contact them, but I'm not quite sure how I 13 would have done that, probably would have gone to the 14 Base and -- at the fence at the Base and tried to make 15 contact with them. 16 Q: Is that how you did that earlier? 17 A: Yes, I believe it was. 18 Q: All right. Were you aware of an 19 alleged helicopter shooting occurring at Camp Ipperwash 20 in August if 1993? 21 A: I was aware through newspaper 22 articles, yes. 23 Q: All right. Were your employees 24 involved in this matter in any way? 25 A: Not to my knowledge.
981 Q: Did MNR provide any support for the 2 OPP during its investigation of this incident? 3 A: That I don't recollect. 4 Q: All right. Did anything else of 5 significance, in terms of Park safety or aboriginal 6 relations, occur prior to the Park's closing on Labour 7 Day of 1993, that you can recall? 8 A: I -- I don't recollect if there was. 9 There may have been incidents or occurrences, but I -- I 10 don't recall. 11 Q: Nothing of significance that you 12 recall? 13 A: From that period -- if you refer me 14 to an occurrence report I could tell you, but other than 15 that my recollection is that there may have been, but I - 16 - I just don't recall. 17 Q: All right. Thank you. Let's move on 18 to 1994 then. 19 Did any significant incidents involving 20 Stoney Point First Nation occupiers and the Park -- Park 21 users or staff occur over the fall and winter of 1993 to 22 1994, in other words, on the -- the off season, if you 23 will? 24 A: I don't recall. 25 Q: All right. Do you recall receiving
991 notice of any threats or actual damage to Park property? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: Now, at some point during this time 4 frame, were you advised that the army camp was going to 5 be returned to the aboriginal peoples? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: I don't recall. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Would you kindly go to Tab 96, 14 Inquiry document number 1010336. It's an e-mail from 15 yourself to Peter Sturdy, subject, "Kettle Point, Stoney 16 Point issue." 17 You indicate: 18 "I have been invited to meet and -- to 19 a meet and greet function at Camp 20 Ipperwash on March 3rd, 1994 at 2:00 21 p.m. The invitees will consist of 22 those people from agencies that will or 23 have worked with them on the Stoney 24 Point issue, i.e., OPP, MNR, RCMP, et 25 cetera."
1001 Do you have any recollection as to what 2 the purpose of this meeting was? 3 A: Excuse me, I remember getting the -- 4 an invitation but I don't recall what the purpose of the 5 meeting was. 6 Q: Okay. Make this the next exhibit, 7 please. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-861, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-861: Document number 1010336. 11 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to P. Sturdy 12 Re: "KP/SP Issue" Feb. 18/94. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Go next to Tab 97, Inquiry document 16 number 1010334, e-mail to Peter Sturdy from yourself, 17 dated February 24, 1994; references Ipperwash issue. It 18 says, in part: 19 "I am sure that you have heard that 20 Camp Ipperwash is going to be turned 21 over to the Kettle Point Stony Point 22 band in the near future." 23 Does that refresh your memory at all about 24 being apprised of that eventuality? 25 A: Yes. Excuse me, yes, I believe I
1011 heard it through the media, actually, in this context of 2 this e-mail. 3 Q: And as a result of learning of this, 4 then, through the media or otherwise, did you have 5 concerns or did you think it might have any potential 6 detrimental impacts to the Park? 7 A: Well, yes, I had significant 8 concerns. Our water system, for instance, was a water 9 system that was provided to us through the Camp Ipperwash 10 pump house and it was funnelled into -- it was actually 11 the main line, water line went up to camp Ipperwash then 12 was -- was in storage there and then another water line 13 was -- it came back to the Park to service the Park. 14 I also believed that -- at that time we 15 felt that because the unlimited freedom and accessibility 16 of the people on the base that there would certainly be 17 an increase in the day to day occurrences that were 18 occurring in '93. 19 So I -- I -- I wanted to make sure that 20 that was highlighted with peter Sturdy who was my 21 supervisor at the time. 22 Q: All right. I'd like to make this 23 document the next exhibit, please. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-862, Your Honour. 25
1021 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-862: Document number 1010334. 2 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to P. Sturdy 3 Re: "Ipperwash Issue", Feb. 24/94. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: And then at some point thereafter, 7 did you actually receive confirmation from the military 8 that it, indeed, was intending to turn the -- return the 9 army camp to the aboriginal peoples? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: If you go to Tab 98, please; Inquiry 12 document number 1010333. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: E-mail to Peter Sturdy from yourself 15 dated February 25, 1994 reflects in part: 16 "I spoke with Major Sainsbury yesterday 17 and he advises that the camp Ipperwash 18 issue has been resolved in respect to 19 announcing the return of the base to 20 the Kettle Point/Stoney Point peoples. 21 However the hows and whens have not -- 22 have not [sorry]. 23 There will be separate negotiations to 24 resolve those matters." 25 Does that refresh your memory?
1031 A: Yes, I do recall the conversation. 2 Q: All right. And Major Sainsbury was 3 with the Department of Natural -- of National Defence? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And what did you understand -- to 6 whom did you understand the -- the Base would be 7 returned? 8 A: To Kettle Point and Stoney Point 9 people was my understanding. 10 Q: As two (2) separate peoples or as a 11 band? 12 A: As one (1) -- one (1) band. 13 Q: The Indian Act band? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Make this the next exhibit, please? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-863, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-863: Document number 1010333. 19 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to P. Sturdy 20 Re: "Ipperwash Issue". Feb. 25/'94. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: Did the fact that it was the Army 24 Camp's intention or the Military's intention, apparently, 25 to return the Base to the Kettle and Stony Point Band,
1041 cause you any additional concerns with respect to the 2 security of the Park? 3 A: I don't recollect, but if it was -- 4 our relationship with the Kettle Point, Stony Point Band 5 was very -- I believe very strong and very positive so I 6 would feel that that would have been a positive position. 7 Q: All right. Did you have any 8 understanding as to what the Stoney Point First Nation's 9 reaction to this apparent attention was? 10 A: Not to my recollection. 11 Q: All right. Would you kindly go to 12 Tab 100, please, Inquiry Document 1010325? 13 A: Yes? 14 Q: It's a fax transmission to yourself 15 and Dan Elliott from Wendy McNab, attached, is just for 16 your information. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what is attached is a notice that 19 reads, "Support Stoney Point Autonomy and Land Rights," 20 advertising a demonstration on March the 19th at the 21 Stoney Point First Nation Reserve which appears to be 22 pointed out that -- as being the Army Camp. 23 Did you become aware of this intention -- 24 of this notice? 25 A: I remember seeing the notice, yes.
1051 Q: All right. Make this the next 2 exhibit. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-864, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-864: Document number 1010325 6 Fax to L. Kobayashi et al from Wendy 7 McNab Re: "FYI Upcoming Native 8 Demonstration." Mar. 17/94 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: And therefore, were you -- did you 12 form any impression as to whether or not the Stoney Point 13 First Nation was accepting of this announcement, the 14 decision? 15 A: I guess -- I guess my -- my feeling 16 was that -- that it still was very controversial in 17 respect to who was actually going to -- to have the Base. 18 Q: All right. And, to your knowledge, 19 was the Army Camp returned to any aboriginal persons at 20 this time? 21 A: I don't recollect. 22 Q: Did the Park open at its usual time 23 in the spring of 1994? 24 A: Yes 25 Q: And were there any particular
1061 challenges, for which you relate to the occupation of 2 Camp Ipperwash, which presented themselves? 3 A: I don't recollect at that time when 4 we were doing the opening. 5 Q: All right. Did there continue to be 6 occurrences reported as between Park users and First 7 Nations persons, this season? 8 A: In '94? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you compare the level of -- 12 of occurrences in terms of frequency and general severity 13 as to the 1993 season? 14 A: I believe they were -- they were 15 increasing in frequency. I don't have the actual numbers 16 but I -- I do -- my -- my perception was that they were 17 increasing and the severity was becoming greater. 18 Q: And when you say, "severity was 19 becoming greater," how do you -- how do you define, 20 "severity?" 21 A: I guess the -- the seriousness of the 22 -- of the -- the activities. I just thought the -- 23 personally I -- I felt that they were becoming a little 24 more severe and a little bit more frequent. 25 Q: All right. Did you continue to have
1071 meetings with the local OPP in relation to potential 2 security issues for the Park? 3 A: Yes, they were fairly frequent and -- 4 and ongoing in the -- as I've mentioned earlier, in the 5 normal course of doing business as you -- as I also 6 mentioned that we were dealing with a small village or a 7 hamlet with a couple of thousand or three thousand 8 (3,000) people at times there, and with the increased 9 number of occurrences and it was a day-to-day or week-to- 10 week regular activity to -- to talk with the OPP about 11 any occurrences that occurred in the Park. 12 Q: Now, the hamlet that you're speaking 13 of, where is that located? 14 A: Well, the hamlet itself would be the 15 size of the number of people that were actually occupying 16 or living in the Park. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: That it was -- you could compare it 19 to a -- a hamlet or village. It was just the numbers of 20 people that we were dealing with on a day to day basis 21 throughout the summer months. 22 Q: Thank you. And if you go to Tab 102, 23 Inquiry Document 1010310. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And this is an e-mail from Peter
1081 Sturdy to Jim Young, and you are shown as having received 2 a copy. This indicates that Mr. Sturdy has received a 3 report from you on a meeting that you and Dan Elliott 4 attended that morning with the Bosanquet Township and the 5 OPP concerning Ipperwash incidents and the Township 6 concerns. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And did you attend such a meeting? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And did you -- were you apprised of 11 increased concern from the OPP? 12 A: I believe everyone in the area at 13 that particular point in time was very concerned with the 14 -- with the safety of the users, tourism impacts and -- 15 and so forth and so I -- I think this was more a -- once 16 again, an information transfer and to -- to make 17 everybody aware of exactly what we were doing from a 18 safety viewpoint at -- at Ipperwash itself. 19 Q: All right. And was one of the 20 outcomes of this meeting that -- that you would review 21 the existing Park contingency plan with the -- the 22 Detachment Commander from the OPP? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And did that happen? 25 A: I believe it did, yes.
1091 Q: And did you make a tentative 2 commitment to provide full night -- I'm sorry. Did 3 someone make a tentative commitment to provide full night 4 coverage at Ipperwash -- 5 A: Yes. Peter -- sorry. 6 Q: I'm sorry. And to be the eyes and 7 ears of the police? 8 A: Yes, we did. I -- I requested 9 additional funding to -- to support that approach, yes. 10 Q: All right. And at this point do you 11 have contact from the Federal MPP Rosemary Ur, in 12 relation to what's going on at the Park? 13 A: Yes. I believe Rosemary contacted 14 me. 15 Q: Now was this the first time that a 16 Federal MP had actually spoke to you about the issue at 17 Ipperwash in the sense of wanting to move this -- bring 18 this to the attention of the -- the local caucus? 19 A: I don't recollect if this was the 20 first time. 21 Q: Okay. Can you tell me what the 22 nature of your contact then with Rosemary Ur was, in this 23 time period? 24 A: Actually, once again, to establish 25 strong relationships with the community we would touch
1101 base with the local Member of Parliament and the local 2 MPP and other municipal officials annually, if -- if we 3 could, to discuss what was occurring at the Park, tourism 4 opportunities, employment opportunities, new initiatives 5 at the Park level. 6 Because, once again, we did provide a -- a 7 number of employment opportunities and we'd be looking 8 for trying to source out new programs to -- to get 9 additional funding for the Park. 10 So there would be occasions when I would 11 contact the local politicians in -- in respect to that. 12 Q: You mean the Federal politicians? 13 A: Federal yes. In this case Rosemary 14 Ur, yes. 15 Q: All right. And did she express any - 16 - any -- any thoughts to you with respect to what the 17 Prime Minister's interest might be in the issue? 18 A: I don't believe so. 19 Q: All right. Did this have anything to 20 do with the army camp? 21 A: I believe -- I -- I don't recollect. 22 Q: I would like to make this the next 23 exhibit please. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-865, Your Honour. 25
1111 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-865: Document number 1010310. 2 E-mail from P. Sturdy to Jim Young Re: 3 Ipperwash, May 26/95. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: All right. Would you next go, 7 please, to Tab 103, e-mail dated May 31, 1994 from 8 yourself to Dan Elliott. 9 And is this a -- are you providing him 10 with suggestions to add to his report with respect to the 11 Park and Park incidents? 12 A: Yes, I believe it was an update 13 report. 14 Q: All right. And it indicates here 15 that there were additional Native occurrences which 16 occurred over the May 27th to 29 weekend. 17 Were you aware of those three (3) 18 occurrences? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And were all occurrences 21 turned over to the OPP? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Also indicates that: 24 "The OPP has six (6) undercover 25 officers in the Park and on the
1121 military base over the past weekend." 2 Is that your understanding? 3 A: I recall certainly in the Park. I 4 don't recall about the military base. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: But it was my understanding. 7 Q: And then you indicate that you're: 8 "Attempting to put together a Park 9 warden enforcement coverage to provide 10 security of our Park campers and 11 protection of our facility. 12 It was brought to my attention that 13 there is some reluctance from our staff 14 to work in the Ipperwash environment 15 due to the safety issue, i.e., not 16 adequately equipped to deal with this 17 type of enforcement (body armour, 18 pepper spray et cetera). 19 This has brought -- this has been 20 brought forward informally, so as of 21 yet I'm not sure that this is an 22 issue." 23 Were you receiving those concerns from 24 your staff? 25 A: Yes. Not only in regards to this
1131 issue. At that particular point in time the staff were 2 requesting additional enforcement equipment such as body 3 armour, pepper spray and so forth. 4 And as a part of their position, this 5 position actually, the Ipperwash situation sort of 6 heightened the -- their increased request for the -- this 7 type of equipment. 8 Q: And how -- what was the outcome of 9 that, those discussions with your staff that summer? 10 A: Oh, actually, enforcement equipment 11 was a -- it's a standard that is dictated by the Ontario 12 Provincial Parks program and there were a number of 13 committees meeting at that particular time to review 14 enforcement equipment and so forth. 15 So it wasn't a decision that I could make, 16 locally, in respect of this. They all recognized the 17 fact that it was a corporate decision not to have our 18 staff with body armour, with pepper spray, with firearms 19 and so forth. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: 'Cause once again, any serious -- 22 serious infractions or occurrences that they dealt with 23 would be turned over to the OPP, and they would become 24 more eyes and ears. 25 Q: And were they content with the
1141 resolution? 2 A: I don't recollect. 3 Q: All right. Did they continue to work 4 for you? 5 A: Of course. 6 Q: Okay. And the first item indicates 7 that: 8 "Rosemary Ur's office has called you 9 regarding forwarding a summary of the 10 Ipperwash concerns to her for her 11 review and our meeting." 12 Now do you recollect now, more clearly, 13 what it was that her office was interested in, in terms 14 of the Ipperwash Park? 15 A: I don't recollect. 16 Q: Do you recall there being a 17 subsequent meeting in or around August -- sorry, after 18 May of '94? 19 A: I don't recollect that, either. 20 Q: I'd like to make this the next 21 exhibit, please. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-866, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-866: 866 Document number 1010306. 25 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to Dan Elliott
1151 Re: "Ipperwash" and e-mail to L. 2 Kobayashi from Dan Elliott Re: 3 "Ipperwash", May 31/'94. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: Now, from your perspective, was there 7 a role to be played in this -- in this matter by the 8 Federal Government? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: In respect to Camp Ipperwash? 13 Q: And the ramifications for the Park. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: I would suggest that she would be 18 concerned about what was happening in the area and I 19 think that was passed on to me, but, in respect -- I -- I 20 don't know, in respect to Ipperwash Provincial Park 21 itself, what her thoughts were at that time. 22 Q: All right. And I see on page 2 of 23 this e-mail that you also had a meeting with Detective 24 Commander Lacroix? 25 A: Detachment Commander, yes.
1161 Q: Excuse me, that's right, thank you. 2 That's with the -- was he was the OPP? 3 A: Yes, he was. 4 Q: And what was that about? 5 A: That was about the contingency plan 6 itself and going -- reviewing it, to reflect the issues 7 of 1994 versus 1993. 8 It was something that we did annually and 9 we committed to doing annually and to -- to make sure 10 that it was -- everything was in place to -- in case of 11 any emergencies. 12 Q: All right. Now are you aware of -- 13 of what adjustments, if any, the OPP made with respect to 14 providing the Park with further comfort, with respect to 15 security? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: You'll have to refresh my memory I -- 20 I don't recollect. I'm sure there was some -- some 21 things that were done. 22 Q: And if you look at Tab 104 Inquiry 23 Document 1010305, an e-mail from yourself. The subject 24 is, "Contact [sorry] contact with Rosemarie Ur's office", 25 but I'm interested in the -- the last paragraph:
1171 "I spoke with Detachment Commander 2 Lacroix --" 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: "and he is putting a two (2) man 5 patrol of the area in effect for 6 Friday, Saturday, and Sunday from -- 7 from 11:00 a.m. to last light for the 8 next few weekends. Also has given 9 direction to his North Lambton patrol 10 units that any calls from MNR involving 11 natives is a top priority to respond 12 to." 13 Does that refresh your memory? 14 A: It does so, yes. 15 Q: And to your knowledge was that 16 practice put into place or direction put into place? 17 A: It was and I believe I stressed the 18 aspect that our officers were our only eyes and ears and 19 if there was any occurrences that we would require their 20 support as quickly as possible. 21 Q: Okay. And then the first part of 22 this e-mail of course has to do with the meeting that you 23 apparently -- sorry, this contact you apparently had with 24 Rosemarie Ur's office? 25 A: Yes.
1181 Q: Were you advised that there was to be 2 a meeting with government officials and interested 3 parties to be prepared? 4 A: I don't recall. 5 Q: All right. Make this the next 6 exhibit, please? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-867, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-867: Document number 1010303. 10 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to 11 Distribution List Re: "Contact with R. 12 Ur's office MP", June 02/'94. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Now, there's a handwritten date here, 16 June 2nd, 1994, does that sound like about the right date 17 that this was prepared? 18 A: I -- I would think so, yes. 19 Q: Now, was there any escalation in the 20 conflicts between Park users and First Nation occupiers 21 as the 1994 season drew to a close? 22 A: Once again, in general terms things 23 were heightening and escalation was -- was -- was moving 24 forward, however, you'll have to refresh my memory to the 25 different occurrences.
1191 Q: Over the course of '93 and through to 2 the spring of '95 can you describe the -- the -- the -- 3 the details, the particulars of your reporting 4 relationship with the OPP? 5 Who -- for example, who did you 6 particularly have contact with? 7 A: '95. I would have to think at that - 8 - from -- around '93 I think it was Sergeant Beacock and 9 out of Grand Bend it was Sergeant Bouwman. 10 Q: All right. And was the purpose of 11 those meetings still to exchange information, basically? 12 A: Information exchange, yes. 13 Q: And did you make requests from time 14 to time for additional coverage? 15 A: I'm not sure if they were -- they 16 were requests, I -- I think Sergeant Bouwman and 17 Sergeant Beacock would suggest that they were providing 18 additional coverage because of the situations that were 19 occurring, I'm -- I'm sure. 20 Q: Based on your conversations with -- 21 with these officers did you form any impression as to the 22 OPP's level of concern that the Park might eventually be 23 -- or would likely be eventually occupied? 24 A: I'm really not sure at that 25 particular time that there was -- was a feeling right up
1201 until probably the first -- end of July thereabouts. I - 2 - I don't feel that they felt that an occupation was 3 imminent, however, with the heightening of occurrences 4 and so forth we were dusting off plans and so forth to -- 5 to think about an occupation, yes. 6 Q: Okay. When you say it's up until 7 July do you mean July of -- of '95? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: In there some place. 11 Q: Now, over the 1993 season you 12 described a number of conversations with either Maynard 13 T. George or Carl George on behalf of the Stoney Point 14 First Nations. 15 Did that pattern change in any way over 16 the course of the '94 and early '95 season? 17 A: I think in '95 that there was very 18 little contact with either Carl or Maynard. Actually I 19 believe Carl stepped down as being Chief of the Stoney 20 Point Group at that particular point in time, I believe 21 it was early '95. 22 Q: All right. Did that decreasing 23 frequency of contact cause you any concern? 24 A: At the time I -- I don't believe it 25 did.
1211 Q: All right. Was there anyone else 2 from that group with whom you kept up some degree of 3 contact, either formally or informally? 4 A: I don't recollect. 5 Q: Did you know any of the -- the 6 individuals on -- on a, you know, quasi personal basis, 7 if you will, in terms of your -- your contact position in 8 the community? 9 A: Well in -- in reality, I wasn't sure 10 who were Kettle Point people versus Stoney Point people. 11 I really didn't differentiate between, other than those 12 people that were on the base, but I really didn't 13 differentiate between the differ -- two (2) different 14 peoples, at that particular point in time, prior to the 15 occupation. 16 Q: Okay. Did you do anything to -- to 17 improve the level or quality of your communications with 18 the Stoney Point First Nation Group? 19 A: I -- I don't recollect. 20 Q: Did you continue to have regular 21 discussions with representatives from the Kettle and 22 Stony Point First Nation over the course of '94 and early 23 '95? 24 A: Yes, I believe I did, yes. 25 Q: And for what purposes did you speak
1221 with them, generally? 2 A: There were a number of programs that 3 listed under the Band administrator and myself had been 4 working on over the course of probably '90 -- since the 5 management plan, really. 6 And I think there was distant education 7 with Sioux College was one where we would, once again, 8 try to -- to encourage Kettle Point and Stony Point young 9 people in enrolling in a college diploma program through 10 Sioux College and working at the Park at Pinery or 11 Ipperwash, I -- I guess, at the time. 12 Also there were different funding programs 13 that we looked at, Futures, I believe was Lambton -- 14 Municipality of Lambton and experience programs 15 increasing employment opportunities for them. 16 I believe, over that course of time, we -- 17 Liz and I were both working on -- on things like that. 18 Q: With Ms. Thunder? 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: Yeah. All right. And based -- did - 21 - did the topic of the Stoney Point First Nation also 22 arise, from time to time? 23 A: I don't recollect. 24 Q: Did you continue to have some contact 25 with the military personnel at Camp Ipperwash in '94?
1231 A: I don't recollect if I did or not. 2 Q: All right. Did you have any other -- 3 any contact with the Federal Government beyond what 4 you're testified to with respect to Rosemary Ur in '94? 5 A: No. Not to my knowledge. 6 Q: Did the Park close under normal 7 circumstances on Labour Day of 1994? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Were there any significant Park 10 related problems involving -- or reportedly involving 11 Stoney Point First Nation members during the off season 12 of 1994 and '95? 13 A: I don't recall. 14 Q: Did you receive any further notice 15 from anyone from the Stoney Point First Nation Group as 16 to a concern that there were burial grounds left 17 unprotected at the Ipperwash Park during that time 18 period? 19 A: I don't recall. But I don't believe 20 so. 21 Q: All right. Well would you recall 22 receiving any notice beyond the notice provided on -- on 23 a couple of occasions by Maynard T. George and Carl 24 George in '93 about the -- 25 A: No.
1241 Q: -- burial grounds? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did things change in the 4 Spring/Summer season of 1995 in terms of the level and 5 frequency of occurrences reported as between Park users 6 and occupiers of the Camp Ipperwash? 7 A: That would be in '95? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Season of -- 10 Q: Correct. 11 A: Season of '95? 12 Q: Correct. 13 A: Yes there -- there were several 14 occurrences that occurred. 15 Q: All right. And were there any 16 precautionary measures taken by you in an attempt to 17 reduce the opportunity for such confrontations and 18 altercations? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I believe in 1995 we -- we placed 23 some barriers up along the -- the -- along the boat 24 launching area on Matheson Drive. 25 Q: Okay. So did you make a barrier
1251 between the DND beach and the Park beach? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And do you recall how many barriers 4 were put or were they side by side or just sufficient to 5 prevent vehicular traffic? 6 A: They would have been -- there would 7 have been spacing in between to allow pedestrian access 8 in and out of the Park. 9 Q: Can you just describe the cement 10 barriers and...? 11 A: They're probably about four (4) by 12 four (4) by four (4) in size and they would have been 13 located in this area here. 14 Q: All right, just -- you might turn 15 back to the mike. 16 Are you saying the -- the area of the boat 17 launch on the beach? 18 A: That's correct. On the -- on the 19 Ipperwash Park side. 20 Q: Of the beach. 21 A: Of the beach. 22 Q: Okay, and -- 23 A: The access road. 24 Q: At the end of Matheson Drive towards 25 the Park --
1261 A: Correct. 2 Q: I mean towards the lake, excuse me. 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And was there also a procedure 5 implemented with respect to the gating of Matheson Drive? 6 A: We've had a longstanding relationship 7 with the Township of Bosanquet to open and close the gate 8 of Matheson -- that was located at the entrance to 9 Matheson Drive from Army Camp Road. 10 In actual fact, I believe we installed the 11 gate itself and we would open it first thing in the 12 morning and close it at -- at night. 13 Q: All right, was there any change in 14 this procedure in '95? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I believe there were some issues in 19 respect to the gate and I believe the chain was cut -- 20 the lock was cut off on a couple of occasions and then we 21 decided that we would just leave it open, because it 22 wasn't a lot of sense to -- to close it and just have the 23 gate cut. 24 Q: All right. And were there any -- 25 were there any barriers, if you will, that would prevent
1271 the free flow of -- of personnel from the Park to the 2 Army camp across Matheson Drive? 3 A: Where the barriers were located? 4 Q: No, I'm sorry. I'm talking about the 5 east/west stretch of Matheson Drive, from Army Camp Road. 6 A: Oh, there's a main entrance there. 7 There was a fence along -- along the day use area, but it 8 didn't -- there was openings in the fencing to allow 9 pedestrian traffic in and out. 10 Q: All right, and was this area 11 regularly patrolled by your staff? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you and your staff continue 14 to have regular meetings and contacts with the local OPP 15 to discuss concerns and information regarding the army 16 camp occupiers? 17 A: I'm uncertain how regular they were. 18 My staff would have met the MPs in the course of their 19 regular evening patrols and so forth. 20 Is that what you're referring to? 21 Q: The MPs? 22 A: MPs, yes. 23 Q: I'm talking about the OPP but that's 24 fine. 25 A: OPP, oh yes. When the OPP would be
1281 in the Park, they would most certainly notify our staff 2 or be recognized by our staff and they -- you know, it's 3 a very small area really. It's not that large an area. 4 Q: All right, and with respect to 5 meetings at the Detachment, did those continue? 6 A: Oh, it would have been going on -- 7 ongoing as usual. 8 Q: And was there any change in frequency 9 over the course of that season? 10 A: I would say they were a little more 11 frequent and there'd be more informal meetings where the 12 sergeants would drop into my office or I'd drop into 13 their office. 14 But they were more frequent, yes. 15 Q: Now with respect to the military 16 police would those tend to be more ad hoc, in other 17 words, happenstance if they're on patrol? 18 A: Yes. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Do you recall being advised by Staff 23 Sergeant Bouwman of any concerns regarding the situation 24 that was developing at the army camp early on in the '95 25 season?
1291 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: We've -- we had several meetings and 4 I -- I believe there were some meetings where he would 5 provide information that -- about the occupants of -- of 6 the Base from time to time, yes. 7 Q: And would you go to Tab 109, please, 8 Inquiry Document Number 1009262. And this is an e-mail 9 from yourself to various individuals dated May 19, 1995 10 and it sets out an update with respect to the Park issue. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Is that your e-mail? 13 A: Yes, it is. 14 Q: Make that the next exhibit, please? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-868, Your Honour. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 17 Yes. Thank you very much. Actually it's already 18 Exhibit P-774 I'm advised -- 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-774. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- so strike that. 21 Thank you very much. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: This indicates that you were 25 contacted on May the 17th by Staff Sergeant Charles
1301 Bouwman of the OPP Grand Bend Detachment and that he 2 advised you apparently that the Camp Ipperwash situation 3 was escalating due to a number of factors: (1) Carl 4 George acclaimed chief of Stony Point was no longer 5 chief, Glenn George was now chief, Glenn George's 6 supporters were primarily the radical group occupying the 7 Group (the Manning Clan), known radicals with criminal 8 records. 9 Chief Glenn George had been in contact 10 with Sergeant Bouwman and visited Sergeant Bouwman at 11 Grand Bend Detachment advising the following: 12 "OPP ATV patrols would not be tolerated 13 on the Base. In the event that they do 14 there will be serious confrontations 15 between them and the OPP. 16 Campers and public are not welcome and 17 if seen on the Base they would be dealt 18 with and they also indicated that if 19 we, Park, could not keep them off their 20 land they would come to the Park, 21 Ipperwash, and deal with them there." 22 Now, do you recall whether or not Staff 23 Sergeant Bouwman apprised you of these factors? 24 A: He apprised me of these factors, yes. 25 Q: So references in a meeting on May 18,
1311 1995 which is characterized as: 2 "An emergency OPP briefing in Forest 3 which reviewed the OPP and our 4 procedures to deal with this issue." 5 And then there is a second briefing in 6 Grand Bend in the afternoon which all OPP for North 7 Lambton were required to attend. 8 Now, do you recall attending those 9 briefings? 10 A: I do. 11 Q: All right. 12 "An indication that the OPP will not be 13 patrolling the Base and will only 14 proceed onto the Base if it is a life 15 and death situation or occurrence, i.e. 16 very serious criminal offence. 17 That they will have plainclothes units 18 report in Ipperwash Park every hour and 19 that we will report times in the event 20 that this information is required." 21 Do you recall that being imparted? 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: And in fact did the plainclothes unit 24 continue to operate at the Park? 25 A: I believe they did.
1321 Q: And was the status quo maintained 2 with respect to: Minor complaints would be dealt with by 3 your staff and more serious complaints by the OPP? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did you provide a notice to all 6 users of the Park that the Military beach was out of 7 bounds? 8 A: I don't recollect -- recollect. 9 You'll have to refresh my memory there if there's a 10 document. 11 Q: All right. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Were you apprised that the OPP ATV 16 patrols would continue with respect to the Ipperwash 17 beach? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Were you advised that their 20 intelligence indicated that there were rumours that this 21 group had advised that the peaceful native occupiers were 22 to vacate the Base and leave it behind to what was 23 characterized as the radical group? 24 A: I was apprised of that, yes. 25 Q: Was there also -- were you apprised
1331 of a rumour that the group might protest at the Stony 2 Point on Ipper -- Ipperwash Park? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did in fact any such demonstration or 5 protest occur at the cultural site prior to the 6 occupation of the Park itself? 7 A: Not to my recollection. 8 Q: On the next page you indicate what 9 the -- what your concerns are, do you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And are these concerns aimed at the 12 fact that that be May 24th weekend is -- is quick 13 approaching? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what if anything, what additional 16 security measures did you take to safeguard the -- the 17 Park? 18 A: We brought in conservation -- 19 actually I requested from the Zone Manager, Peter Sturdy, 20 that we -- we required additional support conservation 21 officer enforcements for -- it was provided. 22 Q: What was your reaction to the advice 23 of Sergeant Bouwman and his characterization of if you 24 will, the transition as it appeared of leadership from 25 one group to another at the army camp base?
1341 A: We were very concerned. Because the 2 situation was heightening, there didn't seem to be any 3 clear -- clear leadership at -- with the Stony Pointers. 4 And things would seem to be just heightening and more 5 frequent. The issue just seemed to be coming a much more 6 heightened situation for us. 7 And especially with the number of visitors 8 we had in the Park and the type of visitors that we had 9 for the May 24th weekend usually wasn't primarily 10 families. It was more young people and certainly they 11 could have inflamed the situation dramatically if things 12 got out of hand. 13 Q: And going back to the May 18th '95 14 meeting, do you recall who attended on behalf of the OPP? 15 A: I don't recollect that -- with that. 16 Q: Do you have any recollection as to 17 whether Inspector Carson was there? 18 A: I don't recollect that either. 19 Q: All right. Is it fair to say that in 20 the course of the second briefing that you were provided 21 with information concerning police intelligence? 22 A: I would say it was safe to say, yes. 23 Q: And that you were also being provided 24 with information with respect to policing operations? 25 A: Yes.
1351 Q: Was this something that you would 2 receive from time to time over the course of '93 to '95 3 in relation to the Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Did you receive any feedback from Mr. 6 Sturdy or others with respect to the components of your 7 report? 8 A: In what -- which regard? In regards 9 to the traditional staff and so forth? 10 Q: And the concerns raised by Sergeant 11 Bouwman in particular? 12 A: I would say that we were all 13 concerned and they certainly expressed concern, once 14 again for the safety of our staff and -- and the safety 15 of our users. 16 Q: Was it suggested to you that the Park 17 might be closed as an option? 18 A: I don't recollect. 19 Q: Was that something that you turned 20 your mind to as a possible response to this information 21 that you were receiving? 22 A: I'm sure that I would have discussed 23 the -- the options under these circumstances. But I 24 don't recollect if I did or not or what -- what the 25 situation was at that time.
1361 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, I wonder 2 if we might break for the lunch -- lunchbreak at this 3 time please. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 7 lunchbreak now. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 9 adjourned until 2:25 p.m. 10 11 --- Upon adjourning at 1:10 p.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 2:27 p.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 15 resumed, please be seated. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good afternoon. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 18 afternoon. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: Mr. Kobayashi, before we broke for 22 lunch we were reviewing the document at Tab 109 Exhibit 23 P-774 which was the e-mail dated May 19, 1995 concerning 24 the meeting you had with Sergeant Bouwman and then the 25 briefing.
1371 And my question -- my further question 2 was, did -- did you know Glenn George prior to this 3 notification? 4 A: I knew of him, I don't believe I had 5 ever had the occasion to meet him personally, no. 6 Q: All right. Did his apparent 7 appointment as chief of the Stoney Point First Nation 8 cause you any concern with -- from a Park perspective? 9 A: I -- I believe it did. I believe the 10 -- it had been reported to me that Glenn could be 11 somewhat of a radical, could -- I -- I know that he had 12 reputation for illegal deer hunting, for instance, in the 13 area and I -- I suppose that's where I -- I became aware 14 of Glenn, initially, because we had quite a deer 15 population in Pinery and the surrounding area and his 16 name did come up from time to time in association with 17 that. 18 However, I believe at -- at some point it 19 was reported to me that -- by my own staff that he was 20 somewhat a person that you wouldn't want to meet alone, 21 in respect to some of these issues. 22 Q: All right. Had you ever been 23 involved in a police operation with respect to one (1) of 24 your provincial parks which compared with the apparent 25 intensity the OPP was showing with respect to the
1381 Ipperwash Park this season? 2 A: Never. 3 Q: Who were your key personnel who 4 worked at the Ipperwash Park during the 1995 season? 5 A: When you say, "key personnel," do you 6 mean long-term employees or... 7 Q: Well, no, the -- the employees that 8 were more -- more or less in control of the day-to-day 9 operations at Ipperwash Park. 10 A: I had two (2) assistant 11 superintendents, one (1) was Rob Burnett who was the -- 12 his title was Assistant Superintendent of Ipperwash and 13 Pinery; they had joint responsibilities. And Don 14 Matheson who was the Assistant Superintendent Contract 15 Administrator for Pinery. They would take the lead 16 responsibilities when the other was off. 17 And we also had a park technician working 18 at the Park, Scott Varley, that was a little more senior 19 that would assist Rob in the day-to-day operations. 20 Q: And who were the -- were there 21 particular enforcement staff who would work at the -- at 22 this particular park on this season? 23 A: No, we had -- let's see, we had Glen 24 McIntyre who had been a long-term employee at Ipperwash, 25 and Ron Williamson also was a long-term employee, a park
1391 warden. Both are park wardens having lived in the area 2 and worked at Ipperwash Park probably since the '70's -- 3 early '70's or early -- late '60's, in there some place. 4 Q: All right. Now at this time were you 5 also receiving or were you receiving intelligence from 6 the military base with respect to the Park going on -- or 7 the Camp Ipperwash going ons? 8 A: I believe I was, yes, hmm hmm. 9 Q: And do you recall receiving any 10 intelligence from the military, in June of '95, which 11 caused you particular concern? 12 Q: I don't recollect; you'd have to 13 refresh my memory. 14 A: If you go to Tab 110, please, Inquiry 15 document number 1009261, e-mail from yourself to Peter 16 Sturdy dated June 2nd, 1995. 17 It indicates that you received a call from 18 Bob Crawford and I think -- I don't know that we have the 19 entire sentence there. 20 A: No, we don't. 21 Q: Did he relay to you a report which he 22 received, in turn, from the Department of National 23 Defence to the effect that a certain individual was 24 apparently now in the Ipperwash area? 25 A: Yes. Bob re -- Bob had a report from
1401 DND personnel that the individual was in the area and he 2 had more -- more or less concerns about one of our long 3 term Park wardens working alone that particular evening. 4 I believe -- he was concerned about his safety. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: And the name of the individual who's 8 identified to you, Buck Isaac Doxtator? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And did that mean -- name mean 11 anything to you prior to this e-mail? 12 A: It did not. 13 Q: And were you advised as to why his 14 presence might raise an issue for the Park? 15 A: I believe he had a criminal record 16 and had a history of -- of illegal activities. 17 Q: This is the knowledge that you had at 18 the time? 19 A: That's -- that was the knowledge that 20 was provided to me, yes. 21 Q: All right. Were any measures taken 22 to enhance security as -- at the Park, as a result? 23 A: I'm sure there were. I'm sure we -- 24 we probably -- we did get in touch with the OPP as well 25 as -- I'm uncertain whether we added additional staff,
1411 but I'm sure we did. 2 Q: All right. I'd like to make this 3 document the next exhibit. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. I'm 8 informed this is exhibit P-812, for the record. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: Do you recall having any specific 12 recollection as to whether there were any serious 13 incidents which occurred at the Park over may and June of 14 1995? 15 A: I would have to refer to the 16 occurrence reports to -- to look at the dates and that 17 would refresh my memory. 18 Q: All right. Now, from your 19 recollection, what did you consider the level of risk to 20 the Park in terms of safety of the users and the staff, 21 in light of the presence of the occupiers at the adjacent 22 camp over this first two (2) months of the year -- of the 23 season? 24 A: There were concerns that -- we were 25 starting to get concerned about the staff and visitors to
1421 the Park, yes. 2 Q: Were these concerns that were greater 3 than from the prior year? 4 A: Yes, definitely. 5 Q: Were you satisfied with the level of 6 precautionary measures implemented at the Park under -- 7 under your direction? 8 A: I would say I'd be satisfied but very 9 reluctant to say that -- that it was the ideal situation. 10 Q: What made it not ideal? 11 A: Because of the number of occurrences 12 that were occurring and just the heightened escalation in 13 activities and occurrences. 14 Q: Were there additional measures that 15 you would have preferred to have implemented if you had 16 the resources to do that? 17 A: I certainly would have had more 18 enforcement staff available to -- to participate in this 19 -- in patrolling the Park. 20 Q: Would that include conservation 21 officers? 22 A: At that particular time, I would 23 think that I wouldn't want to see any of my -- our Park 24 wardens working alone, for instance, and whether it be a 25 Park warden or conservation officer would be irrelevant,
1431 but I'd want my employees to be working under safe 2 conditions. 3 Q: Okay. Were you satisfied with the 4 level of support that you were receiving from the OPP at 5 this time? 6 A: I would say yes. 7 Q: Were you satisfied with the level of 8 co-operation by the military with respect to patrolling 9 the base and the DND beach? 10 A: I would say that if there was a 11 question about the military effectiveness, I -- I would 12 say that I wouldn't be satisfied with that. 13 Q: You were not satisfied? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Would it have been your preference to 16 have had a more visible presence in terms of patrolling 17 of the beach? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And -- and the boundaries? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Did you communicate this concern to 22 the military or anyone in your office? 23 A: I believe I -- I spoke with Peter 24 Sturdy in regards to level of enforcement at all three 25 (3) levels. The DND, ourselves and the OPP.
1441 Q: Did you consider whether there was a 2 need for political action in terms of the army camp 3 occupation as a way of resolving or easing tensions as 4 between the occupiers and Park users? 5 A: I think that was out of the realm of 6 my responsibilities. I just really thought that things 7 were escalating and I -- I didn't have any participation 8 at a political level in respect to the issues so. 9 Q: No, I appreciate that. But do you 10 identify the need for political action? 11 A: In respect to DND? 12 Q: No. In -- well in respect to the -- 13 the Army Camp occupation? 14 A: I really don't have any comments in 15 regards to -- to the level that -- that I would have 16 liked to have seen. 17 Q: As the Canada Day long weekend 18 approached, did you once again turn your mind to a risk 19 and security assessment for the Park? 20 A: Of course. 21 Q: Do you recall attending at a meeting 22 with the OPP on June the 30th, 1995 in this regard? 23 A: You would have to once again refresh 24 my memory. 25 Q: If you would go to Tab 111 please,
1451 Inquiry Document Number 1010161. It's a memorandum dated 2 June 30th, 1995 addressed to Park Warden at the Pinery 3 and Ipperwash Parks by Donald Matheson referencing OPP 4 assistance and update on Ipperwash area. 5 First paragraph indicates that yourself 6 and Mr. Rob Crawford and Mr. Matheson met with Staff 7 Sergeant Bouwman on June the 30th at Grand Bend OPP about 8 providing police coverage on the Canada Day weekend. 9 Do you recall -- does that refresh your 10 memory as to whether a meeting occurred? 11 A: Yes, we did have that meeting. 12 Q: And what transpired during that 13 meeting? 14 A: I -- I believe that I think we -- the 15 OPP increased patrols and ensured that we had appropriate 16 coverage for the weekend. 17 Q: I see in the second paragraph there 18 is advice there's a warrant out for the arrest of Glenn 19 George. Is this something that you were advised of -- 20 A: We were advised of this, yes. 21 Q: At the meeting with Staff Sergeant 22 Bouwman? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: I would like to make this the next 25 exhibit.
1461 THE REGISTRAR: P-868, Yur Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-868: Document number 1010161. 4 MNR letter from Donald R. Matheson to 5 Park Wardens Re: "OPP assistance and 6 update on Ipperwash Area". June 30/'95 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: Was it usual practice for a park 10 personnel to be on the lookout for individuals who were 11 the subject of arrest warrants on behalf of the OPP? 12 A: Yes. Once again if we were the eyes 13 and ears, direction was not to approach these people but 14 to pass the information onto the appropriate enforcement 15 agency. 16 Q: Did you provide a further report or 17 did you provide a more detailed report on the June 30th 18 meeting? 19 A: Once again, you'd have to refresh my 20 recollection. 21 Q: If you go to Tab 112 please. Inquiry 22 Document Number 3000618, it's a e-mail dated July 2nd, 23 1995 from yourself to a distribution list. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Including Peter Sturdy, Dan Elliott,
1471 Ed Vervoort and Rob Messervey. Is this -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Is this your report on the meeting? 4 A: I believe it is. 5 Q: Let's make this the next exhibit. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-869, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-869: Document number 3000618. 9 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to 10 Distribution List Re: "Ipperwash 11 native issue, July 02/'95. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: It's again references Glenn George 15 and -- did -- did any of your park staff advise you that 16 they knew Mr. George? 17 A: Yes, some of the Park staff did know 18 Mr. George, yes. 19 Q: In light of that was any thought 20 given to trying to facilitate an informal contact with 21 Glenn George using your own Park staff, those Park staff 22 who already knew him? 23 A: I don't believe there was. 24 Q: And can you -- you -- can you tell us 25 why not?
1481 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: No, not really. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Can you tell me which of your Park 7 staff had a pre-existing relationship with Mr. George? 8 A: I -- I -- I believe that Don Matheson 9 the Assistant Superintendent and -- as well as Glen 10 McIntyre, Ron Williamson... 11 Q: It indicates here that in addition to 12 the incidents -- sorry. Were you advised by Sergeant 13 Bouwman that there were warriors now at Camp Ipperwash? 14 A: I believe I was. 15 Q: And did that cause you any particular 16 concern? 17 A: I would say it heightened my -- my 18 concern, yes. 19 Q: And do you recall whether the term, 20 "Warriors" was something that -- that Sergeant Bouwman 21 specifically conveyed to you or is that a term that you - 22 - you used to describe the people? 23 A: It was conveyed to me. 24 Q: All right. And why did that add 25 concern to you?
1491 A: Well, my understanding from previous 2 aboriginal issues in eastern Ontario that warriors were - 3 - the connotation, "Warriors" was used and I --I guess 4 from my -- my interpretation was that they were not -- 5 not negotiators, that they were part of the -- the issue 6 at -- down in the Cornwall area. 7 Q: Down in the Cornwall area? 8 A: I believe it was eastern Ontario, 9 yes. 10 Q: And where is this information? Where 11 did you pick up this information? 12 A: I -- I believe it was in the 13 newspapers and so forth. It's just my understanding or 14 interpretation of the -- of the term. 15 Q: Okay. At the bottom of the first 16 page there's an indication that: 17 "On June 30th the sergeant met with 18 the, quote, "passive occupiers" and 19 former acclaimed chief Carl George who 20 informed Sergeant Bouwman that his 21 group is going to confront the radical 22 group on the Base on Monday the 3rd of 23 July with the intent of forcing the 24 radicals off the Base." 25 Were you advised that?
1501 A: Yes, I believe I was. 2 Q: And to your knowledge did that occur 3 or was there an attempt that occurred? 4 A: I don't recollect. 5 Q: Now, under -- on page 2 under July 6 1st did -- did you receive a further -- a report from 7 Sergeant Bouwman to the effect that there was a 8 confrontation with an OPP ATV patrol on the Military 9 beach with -- with some aboriginal people? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I see that halfway through that 12 paragraph it says: 13 "He [meaning Sergeant Bouwman] advised 14 that it was an extremely volatile 15 situation due to the fact that the 16 majority of the natives were not from 17 the area, but from different reserves." 18 Do -- do you recall this -- 19 A: I do. 20 Q: -- being conveyed? 21 A: I do. 22 Q: And who used the term, "extremely 23 volatile?" 24 A: That would have been Sergeant 25 Bouwman.
1511 Q: And did that -- did his description 2 cause you concern? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did he -- and did he advise you that 5 he and his family had been personally threatened? 6 A: I don't recollect if he did. 7 Q: And a little above that, five (5) 8 lines down: 9 "Sergeant Bouwman proceeded to the area 10 and was verbally confronted by the 11 natives and was threatened personally 12 and threats were made about his 13 family." 14 A: I do recall. I do recall that now, 15 yes. 16 Q: And did that -- those comments cause 17 you concern? 18 A: Yes, it did. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And further down the paragraph about 23 nine (9) lines from the bottom, did he advise you that 24 there was also an assault on a quote "white person" 25 closed quote, on the Military Beach?
1521 A: Yes. 2 Q: Did that cause you concern? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: As a result of these reports received 5 from Sergeant Bouwman did you give any thought at this 6 time to closing the Park? 7 A: I'm sure we gave it some thought, but 8 I guess with the support of the Ontario Provincial Police 9 and our -- and our own enforcement staff that this 10 decision was not -- made not to -- to close the Park. 11 Q: Were you -- 12 A: But it was a consideration, I'm sure, 13 at that time. 14 Q: Well were you comfortable with that 15 decision? 16 A: I was comfortable with it. If the 17 Ontario Provincial Police thought it was safe then, you 18 know, not -- not to be overly concerned then I would -- I 19 would have agreed. 20 Q: Well, in this case were you relying, 21 then, on the recommendation of the Ontario Provincial 22 Police? 23 A: I can't say definitely that they 24 recommended that we leave the Park open, but I know it 25 was discussed.
1531 Q: Did you form any impression based on 2 your meeting with Sergeant Bouwman as to what the degree 3 of his concern was with respect to the potential risk to 4 the Park as a result of these various incidents? 5 A: I don't recall us discussing it. 6 Q: Okay. By the end of the long 7 weekend, the Canada Day weekend, were there any serious 8 incidents that occurred that you were aware -- advised 9 of? 10 A: I would have to look at the 11 occurrence reports to -- to establish what the dates were 12 before I made a comment on that. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Does anything stand out to you, 17 today? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Do you recall there being property 20 thefts or thefts of -- 21 A: Yes, oh yes. 22 Q: -- personal property items? 23 A: They were pretty much ongoing at the 24 -- in the Park at that time. 25 Q: All right.
1541 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: And I do recall seeing this in the -- 4 seeing it in the memo here and yes, I remember seeing an 5 occurrence report on that. 6 Q: Okay. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Was there any change in the severity 11 and/or frequency of the, what you considered to be the 12 serious incidents, which were reported involving 13 occupiers and Park users over the course of July of 1995? 14 A: I would say that not -- having not 15 looked at the occurrence reports or seeing the dates on 16 the occurrence reports that things were escalating and by 17 the end of July we were really thinking about reassessing 18 the contingency plan and moving forward from there. 19 Q: Okay. If you go to Tab 113 please. 20 This is Inquiry document 1009258, it's Exhibit P-775. 21 It's an e-mail dated July 11th, 1995 from yourself to a 22 distribution list. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Does this reflect a report of a -- of 25 a serious incident which you were apprised of by
1551 assistant Superintendent -- Park Superintendent Don 2 Matheson? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And can you tell us what that 5 incident involved? 6 A: Well it was -- it was in the -- in 7 the area of the boat launch. A vehicle driven by a 8 person -- native person went through the -- we had wooden 9 peg barriers, they were just posts stuck in the ground 10 along the -- along the -- the beach impairing vehicular 11 travel into the Park, and I believe a -- the -- a 12 aboriginal person drove through the barriers, almost hit 13 a child. 14 The parent, one of -- the parents of the 15 child actually grabbed the aboriginal person through the 16 window and I believe he got ran over -- his foot got ran 17 over on the beach. And that was a major incident. 18 Q: All right. Now you've talked about 19 wooden beach barriers -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- I'm just wondering, you talked 22 earlier of there being cement barriers. Were they still 23 in place or...? 24 A: Yes, they were I believe and -- but 25 there were cement barriers and there was the wooden peg
1561 barriers and -- and -- closer to the water, and I believe 2 that's where they went through. 3 Q: Okay. Can you tell us what the level 4 of OPP activity within the Park by July of '95? 5 A: It was very high; there were regular 6 patrols. I believe there were plain clothes policemen, 7 as well, in the Park. 8 Q: There was undercover surveillance -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- at this time? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: When did you first find out that the 13 barracks or built-up area of the army camp had been taken 14 over and that there had been a total withdrawal by the 15 military? 16 A: Once again, you'd have to be refresh 17 my memory on the date and time. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Would you kindly go to -- well 22 actually you'll need the second volume of the materials. 23 Not up there? 24 A: I don't see it. 25 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Registrar, do you
1571 have the other volume? Volume 2? 2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I have one. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, but another copy? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There should be 5 another copy. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I've got a 7 copy here. Why don't you take this one for now? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay, thank you, 9 Commissioner. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Perhaps you can could 11 and get it. I'm sure I had -- I had another copy on the 12 desk so we'll just go and find it. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You could 17 start, I'll catch up. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Shall I start? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you 20 start, I'll catch up. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: If you go to Tab 118 which is Inquiry 25 Document Number 1007930. It's a memo to file dated
1581 August the 2nd, 1995. It appears to be authored by 2 Donald Matheson and you're shown as having received a 3 copy. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is that a document that you received? 6 A: I'm sure I did, yes. 7 Q: And according to this: 8 "On Sunday, July 30th, 1995 at 9 approximately 8:20 a.m. Rob Burnett 10 called me at home advising that the 11 Department of National Defence had 12 pulled out of the Canadian Forces Base 13 Ipperwash at approximately 11:30 p.m. 14 July 29th, 1995." 15 Does that refresh your memory? 16 A: I believe that -- I was probably on 17 vacation at this particular point in time when -- and Don 18 was in charge and Rob were in charge of the two (2) parks 19 I believe. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: But I do -- I -- I recall getting 22 this document so. 23 Q: Do you recall that this happened at 24 the end of July? 25 A: Yes, I do.
1591 Q: All right. And did this occurrence 2 cause you -- or have any relevance to your assessment of 3 the ongoing Park operations? 4 A: Yes, I'd be very concerned at this 5 point in time, I was. 6 Q: And what -- what specific concerns 7 did you have arising from the occupation of the barracks? 8 A: Well, if indeed the military was no 9 longer available to support the enforcement aspect on the 10 other side of the fence, I would certainly have concerns. 11 Q: All right. Go over to page 2 and 12 we're just at Tab 118 under the date Sunday, July 30th, 13 11:10 a.m. It indicates that: 14 "Mr. Matheson proceeded to Forest OPP 15 Detachment to meet with Inspector John 16 Carson and Superintendent Tony Parkin 17 in regard to the safety of Park patrons 18 and staff and the safety quantity and 19 quality of water from the pump house at 20 Ipperwash Provincial Park and from the 21 reservoir at CFB Ipperwash." 22 Do you recall this being a concern 23 relative to the occupation of the built-up area? 24 A: Yes, it was. We were concerned about 25 the quality of the water for our patrons.
1601 Q: And just tell us how did the -- the 2 fact that the military lost control of the army camp 3 impact on the Park's ability to obtain clean water? 4 A: The water was actually pumped from 5 Lake Huron through the pump house which actually piped 6 the -- pumped the water to Camp Ipperwash up by the 7 barracks where they had a water storage facility. 8 And from that storage facility, the water 9 was then re-routed back to Ipperwash Park to provide the 10 potable water for the Park. 11 Q: All right. But was there a 12 particular operation that had to be conducted from the 13 Army Camp to facilitate the return of the water flow to 14 the Park? 15 I'm just wondering whether there was a 16 manual operation that was being interrupted or was the 17 concern that the water pipe would be cut off somehow? 18 A: Well, we -- we suspected that it 19 could be cut -- well, could be cut off at -- in Camp 20 Ipperwash so we wouldn't have any water. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: And the other concern that we had was 23 having qualified people to monitor the water quality as 24 well. 25 Q: Was that done at the Army Camp
1611 before? 2 A: That was done at the pumphouse I 3 believe. 4 Q: Okay. The pumphouse was in the Park? 5 A: Yes, it was. 6 Q: All right. Now, there's further -- 7 it indicates that there was a request made by the OPP for 8 accommodation at the Pinery Meeting Centre for the OPP 9 Emergency Response Team and that a campsite at the Park 10 on the nights of July 30, 31, and August 1 and 2. 11 Do you recall whether or not the request 12 for accommodation at the -- at Pinery was -- was granted 13 at that time? 14 A: It would have been granted and also 15 the campsite was granted as well. 16 Q: All right. Did the Emergency 17 Response Team then continue to use the Pinery Meeting 18 Centre continuously through to the Park occupation do you 19 know? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: All right. If you look a little 22 further on this page under Sunday, July 30th at 3:30 to 23 4:15 p.m. -- okay, it's at: 24 "Mr. Matheson met with Inspector John 25 Carson, Superintendent Tony Parkin,
1621 George Speck, and Captain Ross from the 2 Military Police. Captain Ross advised 3 that a native person remarked to him on 4 Ross' exiting of CFB Ipperwash on the 5 evening of July 29th words to the 6 effect, "Tell your buddies at the Park 7 that they are our next target." 8 Now, is this something that was conveyed 9 to you? 10 A: Yes, through this document, yes. 11 Q: And was this the first direct threat 12 to occupy the Park received by you or by your personnel 13 that summer? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: All right. And then go to the next 16 page under Sunday, July 30th at 7:15 p.m., an indication 17 that you called Mr. Matheson's office and were briefed on 18 the events of the day. 19 Were you in fact -- is that when you were 20 first advised or at least spoke to anyone with respect to 21 the Camp Ipperwash occupation? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, at the entry Sunday, July 30th 24 at 8:45 p.m. it's indicated that, quote: 25 "We discussed blocking the gates at the
1631 maintenance yard and the Ipperwash 2 store in the event the Stoney Point 3 residents attempted to enter the Park 4 by vehicles as they had done at the 5 Military Base the day before. 6 Constables Straus and Smith are 7 assigned to Ipperwash Provincial Park 8 from 5:00 p.m. July 30th until 7:00 9 p.m. July 31st, 1995." 10 And were you advised that in fact there 11 was thought to be a threat of an imminent Park 12 occupation? 13 A: Of an imminent? 14 Q: Yes, that one may happen -- 15 A: May happen? 16 Q: -- that night or the next day. 17 A: Hmm hmm. Through this memo, yes. 18 Yeah. 19 Q: And the next entry Sunday, July 30th 20 at 9:30 p.m.: 21 "Met with Les Kobayashi, Bob Crawford 22 and Glenn McIntrye at the Ipperwash 23 Provincial Park maintenance building 24 where we discussed the events on July 25 30th, 1995."
1641 Did you attend at the Park and were you 2 provided with a status report by Mr. Matheson? 3 A: Yes, I was. 4 Q: Can you tell me if you recall, what 5 was Mr. Matheson's demeanor in terms of his reaction to 6 the events at Camp Ipperwash and the potential threat 7 that they posed with respect to the Park? 8 A: He was very concerned. He was very 9 concerned and expressed his concerns that -- for the 10 safety of our staff and of the users as well. 11 Q: Were you at all concerned at his 12 ability to handle the situation? 13 A: No, he was a very experienced Park -- 14 he was a Park superintendent, he was a conservation 15 officer. He -- and as my assistant he was very 16 experienced and did an excellent job for me -- 17 Q: All right. 18 A: -- or with us. 19 Q: Now, there's an entry above: 20 "Sunday, July 30th, 8:00 p.m. 21 Inspector Carson called me in regard to 22 a meeting on July 31st, 1995 at the 23 Forest OPP office. Inspector Carson 24 wished to meet to discuss the message 25 that the OPP and MNR will be giving to
1651 the Press and to members of the public 2 and to ensure that the message is as 3 consistent as possible for the peace. 4 I advised Inspector Carson, Les 5 Kobayashi and I would meet with him at 6 the Forest OPP office on July 31st, 7 1995." 8 Do you recall whether or not that meeting 9 occurred? 10 A: I do not recall. 11 Q: You do not recall? 12 A: I do not recall. 13 Q: Do you recall having a meeting with 14 Inspector Carson in or around this time to discuss 15 communications and, specifically, media presentations? 16 A: You would have to refresh my memory; 17 I don't recollect this happening then. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: At this point in time what was your 22 assessment of the level of relative risk of a possible 23 occupation of the Park occurring this season, as compared 24 with the prior two (2) seasons? 25 A: I think the level of risk was
1661 certainly increasing and I know that at this time we -- 2 we started to think very seriously of putting contingency 3 plans in place and working on towards trying to get 4 through the season. 5 Q: A contingency plan specifically aimed 6 at the poss -- at responding to a possible occupation? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you also discuss the other 9 measures with the OPP with respect to what they might do 10 to increase or enhance security in light of this 11 increased risk? 12 A: I don't recall. 13 Q: At this point in time did you think, 14 and in light of these -- these occurrences, were you 15 receiving enough or adequate level of support from the 16 MNR with respect to the increased risk of -- of a Park 17 occupation? 18 A: At this time I believe funds were 19 becoming available to ensure that we had overtime and 20 adequate staff and adequate support staff from the 21 districts and the regions, yes. 22 Q: Okay. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1671 A: I wonder if I could refer you back to 2 the -- the first binder, Tab 3, please. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 7 Ms. Vella, what Tab? 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Tab 3. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Of the first 10 binder? 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: First binder. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: It's an Inquiry document number 17 1007951, and the date is somewhat -- you can't read the 18 date but it refers to a meeting being held on site at the 19 Park on August the 1st, 1995 in the presence of yourself, 20 Don Matheson, Rob Burnett and others who are listed, 21 regarding installation of emergency independent water 22 supply system for the Park. 23 Do you recall attending at this meeting? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: And what was determined, if anything?
1681 A: It was determined that we could re- 2 route the water directly from the pump house to our -- to 3 our own water supply system, creating our own water 4 supply system from -- from the pump house, ensuring that 5 it was properly chlorinated and so forth. 6 Q: And as a result, then, was this -- 7 this concern, at least, resolved; the concern with 8 respect to the safety of the water? 9 A: At this time, I believe we started 10 construction or renovating the pump house and, yes, I 11 believe after a period of time, after construction and 12 renovations that our concerns certainly would have been 13 addressed. 14 Q: All right. And was that installation 15 completed? 16 A: I believe it was. 17 Q: Make this the next exhibit, please. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-870, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-870: Document number 1007944. 21 Memo to file Re: "Ipperwash Army Camp 22 issue" - July 30/95 from Don Matheson , 23 cc'd to L. Kobayashi, Aug. 02/'95. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
1691 Q: All right. Then perhaps we would 2 also go back to -- to your first bin -- or second 3 binder. Hopefully we can put the other one away now. 4 And Tab 119 please. Inquiry Document 5 Number 1007944. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And as I look at this, this appears 8 to be a more legible copy of the -- the prior exhibit. 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Perhaps we can make the Tab -- Mr. 11 Registrar, the Tab Number 119, Inquiry Document 1007944 12 the prior exhibit. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 870. 14 THE REGISTRAR: Do you want, instead of 15 Tab 3 you want this one Tab 119? 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, please. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: This is a better copy. 19 Thank you. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Can you tell me, what was -- perhaps 23 you can pronounce the person's name as it's from. 24 A: Joachim Kolodziej. 25 Q: What was -- is that a he or her?
1701 A: Pardon me? 2 Q: Is that a woman or a man? 3 A: That's a man. 4 Q: What was his role in relation to this 5 matter? 6 A: He was our -- the Ontario Provincial 7 Park's sanitation engineer. 8 Q: Thank you. Now as a result of this 9 solution, did the Park users experience any delays or 10 problems with respect to water use as a result of the 11 occupation of the barracks? 12 A: I don't believe so. 13 Q: All right. Now was there a specific 14 -- you indicated that there was a contingency plan being 15 developed in response to this threat? 16 A: I believe there was at that time. We 17 started dusting it off and looking at how to proceed. 18 And I think the contingency plan was in place, however it 19 was being re-looked at and re-visited at that time, and 20 looking -- if indeed there was an occupation on how to 21 proceed. 22 Q: And if you would go then to Tab 120, 23 Inquiry Document Number 1009990. This is an e-mail from 24 Ed Vervoort to yourself dated August -- it looks like 25 August the 2nd, 1995 although it may be a double digit,
1711 we can't tell from the photocopy. 2 Did you request him to provide you with a 3 copy of the emergency contingency plan? 4 A: It was a matter of course that our -- 5 the group, the district, the zone and the Park that I 6 would get a copy of the plan to review and I believe this 7 was it. 8 Q: And he asks whether you will share it 9 with both Don Matheson and Acting Staff Sergeant Charlie 10 Bouwman? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And did you do so? 13 A: I did so. 14 Q: And he advises that he's going to 15 share a copy with Ron Baldwin, Dan Elliott and Inspector 16 Carson. 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And to your knowledge, did that 19 occur? 20 A: I believe it did. 21 Q: And attached, then, is a two (2) page 22 document entitled, "Historical Background." 23 Is this something that he prepared which 24 gave background to the development of the contingency 25 plan?
1721 A: I believe he and Dan Elliott prepared 2 the historical background. Dan Elliott was our Native 3 liaison officer in the district. 4 Q: And did it set out, accurately, the 5 history from your perspective? 6 A: I believe so. 7 Q: It indicates on the second page, last 8 paragraph: 9 "This plan would therefore be 10 implemented should the situation become 11 such there is deemed to be a threat to 12 public safety for the persons using 13 Ipperwash Provincial Park along with 14 its many staff members. 15 Although, to date, the incidents have 16 been confined to the army base itself. 17 There has been an implied threat toward 18 the takeover of the adjacent Park. 19 The Ontario Provincial Police in 20 concert with the Ministry of Natural 21 Resources and the Federal Department of 22 National Defence is monitoring all 23 activities within the immediate area 24 and dealing with each situation as it 25 arises in the most least
1731 confrontational method available. 2 Discussions are continuing for a 3 peaceful resolution of the issues with 4 Chief Tom Bressette and his council 5 from the Kettle and Stony Point First 6 Nation and representatives of the 7 Stoney Point band who have occupied the 8 military base since 1993. 9 As the incidents for most -- for the 10 most have been outside of the 11 jurisdiction of the Ministry of Natural 12 Resources we will continue to remain a 13 neutral party while maintaining a close 14 contact with the Ontario Provincial 15 Police should implementation of this 16 plan be required." 17 And I'm just wondering, with respect to 18 the -- the last comment, where it says, 19 "As the incidents for the most have 20 been outside of the jurisdiction of the 21 MNR..." 22 Do you have an understanding as to what 23 that was intended to refer to? 24 A: No. 25
1741 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Yes, did you answer that question? 4 A: I said no. 5 Q: I'm sorry, I -- I obviously didn't 6 hear that, excuse me. 7 A: I needed a break. 8 Q: And the MNR is described as -- as 9 playing the role of a neutral party. Is that the way you 10 envisioned your role? 11 A: Neutral as -- as far as taking -- 12 taking and dealing with the more serious infractions or 13 occurrences or investigations, yes. 14 Once again, eyes and ears only. 15 Q: All right 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Maybe I 17 didn't hear you, Ms. Vella. Who prepared this historical 18 background? It's in a memo from Ed Vervoort -- 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Elliott and Mr. 20 Vervoort. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right, Mr. 22 Elliott and -- 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: Is that correct, Mr. Kobayashi?
1751 A: I believe it is, yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: Now, was this -- do you recall who 6 prepared this emergency contingency plan or who was 7 involved in the preparation? 8 A: I believe it was Ed Vervoort took the 9 lead with the contingency plan. He was a compliance 10 specialist out of Aylmer at the time and in, I guess, co- 11 operation with Dan Elliott, the liaison -- native liaison 12 officer out of Aylmer reporting to Ron Baldwin. 13 And I'm sure we had an opportunity to 14 comment on it as well, so the final version would have 15 been Peter Sturdy, myself and the Parks program, along 16 with my own staff and, obviously, I think Charlie Bouwman 17 had an opportunity to look at it as well. 18 Q: Okay. And do you recall, was this 19 prepared -- do you recall what year this was prepared in? 20 A: I think -- it appears in August, 21 around the 1st of August, 1995. 22 Q: Thank you, all right. And was the 23 purpose of -- was the purpose of this plan to facilitate 24 or least outline the procedure as to what would happen in 25 the event of a Park occupation?
1761 A: I believe so, yes. 2 Q: And I see that under this report, a 3 critical incident team was created or established under 4 Part 2 particular, page 2 of the report? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And were you on that critical 7 incident team? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. I note that the first 10 point here is that the critical incident team occupies a 11 place at the OPP command centre, Forest detachment, to 12 liaise with the OPP and other involved agencies. 13 Did you understand that that was a 14 component of the contingency plan? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And did you know at this 17 time which member of the critical incident team would 18 occupy that place? 19 A: I believe it was members; so it would 20 be myself and Ed Vervoort. 21 Q: All right. And did you receive any 22 feedback by the OPP, either Sergeant Bouwman or Inspector 23 Carson with respect of the feasibility of this point at 24 this time? 25 A: Not to my knowledge.
1771 Q: Okay. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And if you go to part 3, "Evacuation 6 Plan Ipperwash Provincial Park," it says: 7 "The following will be the evacuation 8 procedure followed should a state of 9 emergency be declared by the Ontario 10 Provincial Police." 11 To your knowledge, then, was it the OPP 12 who would trigger the application of this part of the 13 plan? 14 A: In conjunction with the Ministry of 15 Natural Resources or the Ontario Parks, yes. 16 Q: Okay. Who would make the call as to 17 whether there was an emergency? 18 A: I guess the Park Superintendent and 19 myself would make the call whether there was an emergency 20 or not, on the advice of the Ontario Provincial Police. 21 Q: Okay. All right. 22 And items 1 to 6 set out that procedure 23 for evacuation; is that right? 24 A: I believe so, yes. 25 Q: And if you go over to part 4,
1781 "Security Plan Ipperwash Provincial Park." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Is this the procedure that would -- 4 when would this part of the plan be implemented, at what 5 stage? 6 A: It would be after all the patrons and 7 all the users and all the staff were evacuated from the 8 Park. 9 Q: And if you go a few pages on to the 10 Ontario Provincial Police contacts? 11 A: Yes? 12 Q: And it identifies an incident 13 commander as Inspector John Carson. 14 Was that your understanding as to who the 15 incident commander would be, in the event of an 16 occupation of the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And the last page, part 19 4, "Incident Report System." 20 What was this for? 21 A: This was the reporting organizational 22 chart for incidents that occurred in the Park. They 23 would report to the Duty Officer -- the individual that 24 saw the infraction or incident would report it to one (1) 25 of the Duty Officers, whoever was in charge at the time.
1791 Then in turn they would report it to the -- the 2 management staff. Then in turn the Superintendent or 3 Acting Superintendent then would report it to the 4 District which was -- would be Ron Baldwin who was the 5 District Manager and report to and Dan Elliott. 6 They would also contact Peter Sturdy, the 7 Zone Manager. 8 Q: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 10 that's part 6, Ms. Vella, you said part 4. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Oh, I'm sorry. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 14 Yes, that's part 6. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Make this the next 19 exhibit, please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-871, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-871: Document number 1009990. 23 E-mail to L. Kobayashi from Ed. 24 Vervoort Re:" Emergency Contingency 25 Plan", Aug. 02/'95.
1801 2 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 3 Q: Yes, and I've been asked to ensure 4 that the public version of the exhibit would have the 5 private personal phone numbers redacted, please. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They look 7 like they're all work numbers, but there might be some 8 private. They look like they're all work numbers. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think there -- there 10 maybe some -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There maybe 12 some. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- cellular -- cell 14 numbers, et cetera so perhaps -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We should -- 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- those can be 17 redacted. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, there 21 are some home numbers on it too. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And what was the 23 exhibit number, Mr. Registrar? 24 THE REGISTRAR: 871. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you.
1811 2 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 3 Q: Now, were any special instructions 4 communicated to the Park staff as a result of the 5 perceived heightened risk of a Park occupation in August 6 of '95? 7 A: You'll have to refresh my memory. 8 I'm sure there was, yes. 9 Q: All right. Sorry to do this to you, 10 but we have to go back to Volume 1. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And Tab 2, please? This is Inquiry 15 Document Number 1010284, it's addressed to all gate staff 16 at the Pinery and Ipperwash Provincial Parks. It appears 17 to be authored by -- sorry, signed -- is that your 18 signature? 19 A: No, actually that's Don Matheson's 20 signature. Once again I believe I was on a day off here. 21 Q: All right. Were you -- did you 22 authorize this? 23 A: I did so. 24 Q: And this indicates -- it's reference 25 Native Admission to Ipperwash Provincial Park and I'm
1821 looking at the second paragraph. 2 "The only time a Native person will be 3 allowed free entrance is to visit the 4 cultural site set out in the picnic 5 area." 6 And is this one of the directions that was 7 provided to your Park staff in 1995 as a result of a 8 heightened risk of occupation? 9 A: Not necessarily because of the 10 heightened risk of occupation. I believe this is 11 something that we agreed to through the draft park 12 management plan. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: And we -- it was -- it had been 15 implemented for two (2) or three (3) years prior to 1995. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: For ceremonial purposes and 18 visitation we would allow First Nations people to -- to 19 visit their ceremonial site. 20 Q: All right. Do you recall when this - 21 - this memorandum was issued then? 22 A: I recall seeing it after the fact. I 23 wasn't there at the time. This was -- this one? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: To the 'All gate staff'? I wasn't
1831 there at that time. Don Matheson authored it and 2 actually circulated it amongst the gate staff. 3 Q: All right. Do you recall whether it 4 was circulated at or prior to 1995? 5 A: It may have been a copy of the -- of 6 the first, probably, notice that we gave out. Because we 7 had several of these at the time because there were 8 several different issues. 9 Q: Okay. In any event it reflects a 10 directive that was in place since -- 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: -- since when '90? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Make that the next exhibit 15 please. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-872, Your Honour. 17 18 ---EXHIBIT NO. P-872: Document number 1010284. 19 Memo to All Gate Staff from Don 20 Matheson signed by Les. Kobayashi Re:" 21 Native admission to Ipperwash Prov. 22 Park", undated. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: Thank you. All right would you
1841 kindly then next go to Tab 124 in Volume 2, Inquiry 2 Document Number 3000630. This is a document entitled 3 'Procedures dealing with First Nations people August 18, 4 1995'. 5 It appears to be issued by Robert J. 6 Crawford. And you are shown as having received a copy. 7 Do you recall seeing this document? 8 A: I do recall seeing this document, 9 yes. 10 Q: And what was the purpose of issuing 11 this document? 12 A: This document was issued by the 13 Senior Park Warden who supervised the Park Warden's 14 enforcement staff within the boundaries of the Park. 15 Because of the sort of the heightened relations that we 16 were having, he wanted to ensure that appropriate 17 procedures were in place to -- to deal with any -- any 18 problems that were associated with Aboriginal people in 19 the Park and the issue. 20 Q: And what -- what was the impetus for 21 this? 22 A: I believe it was just because things 23 were starting to heighten and frequency of occurrences. 24 Q: I see in the first paragraph it says: 25 "Park wardens are to be the eyes and
1851 ears for the OPP when a First Nations 2 person have contravened a law. 3 Park warden shall contact the OPP 4 immediately and advise them [sorry] 5 them of their officers who are dispatched 6 what offences they can charge for and 7 direct the OPP constables to lay the 8 charges." 9 Is that right? 10 A: That is correct. 11 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 12 next exhibit please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-873, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-873: Document number 3000630. 16 To All Park Wardens cc. L. Kobayashi - 17 "Procedures dealing with First Nations 18 People", Aug. 18/'95. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: And over at Tab 126 this appears to 22 be a revised version of the same document issued on 23 August 28, 1995, is that right? 24 A: That is correct. 25 Q: And the only difference is at
1861 paragraph 6 is it? The offense reporting. 2 A: I believe so. 3 Q: And was this in place therefore as of 4 early September '95? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: I'd like to make this the next 7 exhibit please. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-874, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-874: Document number 1010263. 11 Memo to All Park Wardens Re:" 12 Procedures dealing with First Nations 13 People". Aug. 28/'95. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: Now was there any change in the level 17 of serious incidents either by way of frequency or 18 severity reported as between First Nations persons and 19 the Park users and/or staff after the occupation of the 20 barracks during the course of August 1995? 21 A: There were several occurrences and I 22 would have to go to the actual occurrences and dates and 23 -- to refresh my memory, but yes, there -- there were 24 several occurrences that occurred. 25 Q: And in -- in a general way though
1871 based on your general recollection was there any change 2 in the level of those in terms of frequency and severity? 3 A: The frequency and severity was 4 increasing I believe. At that time there were a couple 5 of occasions -- occurrence reports had indicated that 6 there gunshots in the area or -- or adjacent to the Park 7 in the evenings. 8 Of course through this whole situation, 9 gate staff and all the staff were -- were very cautious 10 about the situation and very concerned. 11 Q: All right. And if you look at Tab 12 128, please, Inquiry Document 1009255, a cover e-mail 13 from Don Matheson to yourself, Peter Sturdy, and Rob 14 Burnett. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And it's enclosing an e-mail dated 17 August 29th, 1995 from Don Matheson to Garry Wice and I 18 just pause to ask, who -- who is Garry Wice? 19 A: I'm not sure. 20 Q: Okay. If you look at the last -- 21 A: I can't remember. 22 Q: -- page does that help you at all in 23 terms of his system mail identification? 24 A: No, it doesn't. Unfortunately, no. 25 Q: All right. Was he with the MNR?
1881 A: I believe he was, yes. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what was -- what was the purpose 5 of this e-mail? 6 A: I believe it was an update in regards 7 to -- to the activities that occurred at Ipperwash, the 8 most recent activities and occurrences. 9 Q: And does it record the -- the 10 significant occurrences or at least what you identified 11 to be significant over the prior two (2) weeks and that 12 was the last two (2) weeks of August? First paragraph? 13 A: Yes. Hmm hmm. 14 Q: According to this memo the Ontario 15 Provincial Police were still maintaining a twenty-four 16 (24) hour visible presence within the Park. 17 Is that your understanding? 18 A: Yes, it was. 19 Q: And further that there were still 20 undercover police officers who were camping at the Park 21 at the east boundary? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did the OPP make inquiries of 24 your or -- or your -- your staff with respect to 25 installing surveillance in or around the -- this time to
1891 your knowledge? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I would like to make this document 4 the next exhibit, please? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-875, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-875: Document number 1009255. 8 E-mail to L.Kobayashi et al from Don 9 Matheson Re: " Ipperwash Prov. Park Native 10 issues". Aug. 29/95. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: And if we go back to Tab 116, please? 14 It's an e-mail from Rob Burnett to 15 yourself. I believe the date is August 24th, 1995. It 16 indicates that Mr. Burnett has been in -- has been 17 contacted with respect to a request by Sergeant Mark 18 Wright with respect to the number of buildings located in 19 Ipperwash Park and he's asking it sounds like for 20 logistical information which might facilitate which 21 buildings could be equipped, is that right, with 22 surveillance? 23 A: That is correct. 24 Q: And were you aware of this request? 25 A: Yes, I was.
1901 Q: Did you authorize the information 2 that he provided? 3 A: I did so. 4 Q: Make this the next exhibit, please? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-876, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-876: Document number 3000152. 8 E-mail to L.Kobayashi from Rob Burnett 9 Re:" Building locations - Ipperwash 10 Aug/95. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: Now, up to this point in time had the 14 issue of burial grounds been raised to your knowledge? 15 A: No. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Okay. Would you go to -- do -- do 20 you recall whether or not you advised Sergeant -- Staff 21 Sergeant Bouwman over the course of August that there had 22 been such a claim made earlier by Maynard T. George? 23 A: I don't recollect that I did. 24 Q: If you go to Tab 117, please. 25
1911 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And this is part of Exhibit 97, and 4 it's been identified as an excerpt from officers' notes 5 and if you look at maybe August 2, '95 the top entry -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- at 7:05, an indication that Staff 8 Sergeant Bouwman met with yourself in Grand Bend, advised 9 of lock situation. 10 Do you recall what that's about? 11 And then it states that: 12 "Two (2) years ago Maynard George 13 advised MNR that there was a burial 14 ground in the area of the maintenance 15 building in Ipperwash Provincial Park. 16 Never confirmed or verified." 17 Does that refresh your memory? 18 A: It does. 19 Q: And so -- and did you advise Sergeant 20 Bouwman of that? 21 A: I believe I did, yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Now, to your knowledge, or at least
1921 let me ask you this: Did -- did you -- did you ever 2 raise the issue of burial grounds in August of '95 with - 3 - with Inspector John Carson? 4 A: I don't recall. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Now, were you aware -- we've heard 9 evidence, at least, that there was a further 10 Interministerial Committee meeting held on August the 2nd 11 1995 in response, at least partially, to the occupation 12 of the barracks and the possible implications for the 13 Park. 14 Were you advised of that meeting? 15 A: Not to my knowledge. 16 Q: All right. Did you have any 17 knowledge by this time as to the existence of an INC? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. No idea as to its purpose, its 20 functions? 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. Now did you attend at a 23 meeting at the OPP London Detachment either at the end of 24 the month on August or September the 1st, '95? 25 A: I believe it was September 1st.
1931 Q: Now do you recall who convened this 2 meeting? 3 A: I believe it was -- well, actually, I 4 believe it was Inspector Carson with Ron Baldwin that 5 actually convened the meeting. 6 Q: Who was present at this meeting? 7 A: I believe there was myself on behalf 8 of the Park, Peter Sturdy, Ron Baldwin, Dan Elliott, Ed 9 Vervoort. 10 Q: And is that essentially the critical 11 incident team from -- 12 A: It is. 13 Q: -- the contingency plan? 14 A: It is. 15 Q: And how long was this meeting? 16 A: It wasn't very long. It was of very 17 short duration, I believe. I believe we walked in, went 18 downstairs to the basement and spoke about the issue very 19 briefly. And not being a lead person, I don't believe I 20 -- I took much of a opportunity to say very much there, 21 but it was very short. 22 I think they also had a briefing prior to 23 us arriving. 24 Q: Okay. Do you recall who, in addition 25 to Inspector Carson, was present at the meeting?
1941 A: I do not. 2 Q: All right. What was your 3 understanding of the purpose of this meeting? 4 A: My understanding was to ensure that 5 we had our plans in place; that the final steps in 6 respect to if there was an occupation that, for instance, 7 to the Trespass to Property notice and all those little 8 details that were inside there or part of the plan, were 9 ready to go. 10 And I believe Inspector Carson was -- 11 attempted to ensure that we had just everything in place 12 that was supposed to be in place. 13 Q: All right. And what was your 14 understanding that the -- the plan would actually be in 15 the event of -- well, let me ask you this: 16 Was it in the event of an occupation? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And were you provided with any 19 information by Inspector Carson as to the police 20 intelligence on the issue? 21 A: I believe that we were meeting on the 22 Friday prior to the weekend, the long weekend, because 23 there was some -- some strong intelligence that something 24 was going to occur with it. 25 And we were more concerned about
1951 evacuating our assets, our staff, visitors and so forth 2 at that particular point in time. 3 Just in making sure everything was looked 4 after and everybody was safe and secure. 5 Q: Now, did Inspector Carson advise you 6 as to what the basis of their intelligence was in 7 relation to the timing of the occupation? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: Did he tell you or give you any 10 indication as to when the police thought it was likely to 11 occur? 12 A: I believe the -- it was likely to 13 occur on the -- the Monday of the Labour Day weekend. I 14 believe that was the -- the thought at the time. 15 Q: And you've indicated that -- that 16 your focus, at least, was on -- on having a plan to 17 evacuate the Park? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And do you recall what plan was being 20 discussed? In other words, what were the -- the 21 components of that plan? 22 A: It would be removal of the assets, 23 evacuation of -- of people, visitors to the Park, 24 evacuation of our own staff, securing the facilities. 25 Q: What do you mean, "securing the
1961 facilities"? 2 A: Ensuring all the facilities were 3 locked and so forth. 4 Q: All right. Was your -- was the 5 contingency plan that we just looked at, was that being 6 discussed and reviewed? 7 A: Yes, it was. That was actually a 8 part of the meeting with Inspector Carson, I believe. 9 Q: All right. Were there any 10 alterations to that proposed by Inspector Carson? 11 A: I don't recollect if there was or 12 not. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: I wasn't the author of the plan so if 15 there was it would -- would have gone through Ed Vervoort 16 or Ron Baldwin. 17 Q: Well, but you were -- you were an 18 important -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- person in that -- 21 A: I don't -- I don't recollect any 22 alterations to it. 23 Q: All right. What was your -- what was 24 your understanding of what your role would be in the 25 event of an occupation?
1971 A: Well, my -- my role would be to, one, 2 ensure that all the staff and facilities and visitors 3 were evacuated from the Park and then from there to -- to 4 go to the command post; also to post notice and also to 5 serve the -- the Trespass to Property notice. 6 Q: Did you raise any particular concerns 7 at this meeting as to what was being proposed? 8 A: I don't believe I did. I have no 9 recollection of doing so. 10 Q: Was there any discussion at this 11 meeting as to what legal means would be used to deal with 12 the occupiers? 13 A: I believe an injunction was one of 14 the options that was being considered fairly strongly at 15 the time. 16 Other than that, no, I don't have any 17 recollection. 18 Q: All right. And what was -- what was 19 the reaction of the MNR personnel at the meeting with 20 respect to the concept of an injunction. 21 Well, maybe I should ask, who raised that 22 first? 23 A: I don't -- I don't recall. 24 Q: Do you recall whether there was any 25 disagreement with respect to the propriety of the use of
1981 an injunction? 2 A: I do not, I don't know, no. 3 Q: Did you have any understanding as to 4 what an injunction was? 5 A: Somewhat, only perhaps not -- not to 6 the understanding I have currently, but at that time, 7 yes, I believe that it was a legal method of ensuring 8 that property was secured that belonged to us, and that 9 would be through the Courts, through an -- through the 10 vehicle of an injunction. 11 And my understanding was Peter Sturdy was 12 to be the author of the -- of the Affidavit and so forth 13 at that time. 14 Q: Was there any discussion about there 15 being, perhaps, different scenarios that might present 16 themselves in the form of an occupation or what an 17 occupation would consist of, which would then in turn 18 inform the response by the police and the MNR? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: During the course of the meeting did 21 the inspector -- Inspector Carson stress any singular 22 driving concept which -- which would -- which you 23 understood would drive the police approach to whatever 24 situation may arise? 25 A: I remember seeing on the blackboard
1991 and this has stuck with me for some time actually and I 2 heard it several times and it was, resolution through 3 peaceful negotiations. And he stressed that with us very 4 strongly and it has stuck with me since and I heard it on 5 many occasions actually. 6 Q: And when you mean you, "heard it on 7 may occasions" at that time or... 8 A: Oh, at the command post and so forth 9 throughout the -- the actual event itself. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: But it was in big -- big letters on 12 the blackboard, something to that effect and I think it 13 was resolution through peaceful negotiations. 14 Q: Now, did Inspector Carson provide you 15 with an estimate if you will or what the chances of an 16 occupation actually occurring would be? 17 A: I don't recall. 18 Q: At the -- at any point during the 19 meeting was the concept of negotiations or an approach to 20 negotiations discussed? 21 A: I -- I just don't recall. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Did Inspector Carson ask whether any
2001 of your or your staff or the native liaison officer might 2 be able to assist in opening lines of communication or a 3 dialogue with the Stoney Point Group should that -- 4 should the need arise? 5 A: I don't recall. 6 Q: Do you recall whether you raised the 7 potential role of yourself or your staff in that respect? 8 A: I don't recall if I did or not. 9 Q: Did you -- did Inspector Carson give 10 you any sense as to the length of time that might be 11 involved in resolving the occupation should it occur? 12 A: I don't -- I don't recall if he -- 13 whatever. 14 Q: Did you have any preliminary meeting 15 with your colleagues in advance of the September 1st 16 meeting at the OPP London detachment? 17 A: No, not to my recollection. 18 Q: Did you have any meeting following to 19 debrief? 20 A: Not to my recollection. I just don't 21 recall. 22 Q: When you went home over the Labour 23 Day weekend what was your candid view as to the 24 likelihood of an occupation occurring on Labour Day or 25 thereabouts?
2011 A: My candid view was that perhaps there 2 would be an occupation or an assertion of -- of ownership 3 very similar to what there was in 1993. Other than that 4 I felt that the contingency plan and the Ontario 5 Provincial Police plan and so forth that things were 6 under control so to speak. 7 I felt fairly confident that we'd covered 8 all the bases that we could given the information that we 9 had leading up to that particular point in time. 10 Q: Okay. And just so I understand your 11 answer was it your assessment that a -- full scale 12 occupation would occur or that something more akin to 13 what occurred in '93 would occur? 14 A: My assessment based upon the facts 15 given in August was that perhaps something more severe -- 16 serious would occur, but my candid feeling at the time 17 was that I though it would perhaps be like 1993. 18 Q: And what was the basis of that candid 19 view? 20 A: Just the feeling really. Just a 21 personal feeling, that's all. 22 Q: All right. Commissioner, this might 23 be appropriate to take the afternoon break. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 25 this would be a good time.
2021 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 2 for fifteen (15) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 3:45 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 4:02 p.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, just 11 before we move on. I neglected to request that the 12 document at Tab 118, Inquiry Document 1007930 a memo to 13 file dated August 2, 1995 be entered as the next exhibit 14 please. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-877, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-877: Document number 1007930. 18 Memo to file Re: " Ipperwash Army Camp 19 Issue". July 30/95 from Don Matheson , 20 cc'd to L. Kobayashi . Aug. 02/95 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: We were speaking about the September 24 1st OPP meeting, what steps did you take if any, as a 25 result of this meeting to prepare for the possibility of
2031 a Park occupation occurring in or around Labour Day? 2 A: I -- I believe I went back to the 3 Park and informed all the management staff who in turn 4 were to inform their -- all of the -- all of their staff 5 about the situation, about the possible occurrence and 6 from there that we would implement the emergency 7 evacuation plan if -- if it was required. 8 Q: All right. Do you recall were there 9 any steps taken to close down the Park? 10 A: I believe that there were a lot of 11 files and things that could be moved. That would 12 probably be -- a lot of it would have been moved up to 13 Pinery over the course of the winter. 14 So they started to move some of the 15 physical assets of the Park, such a filing cabinets and 16 tools and so forth -- equipment. 17 Q: And were copies of keys to the Park 18 buildings given to the OPP? 19 A: Yes, they were. 20 Q: Was any facilities -- were any 21 facilities provided to the OPP to house any of their 22 units? 23 A: I don't recollect if there -- there 24 was per se but I'm sure -- I'm sure they were there at 25 that particular point in time, but I personally didn't
2041 look after having that done. 2 Q: All right. And you provided 3 briefings of your -- of the Park staff who would be on 4 duty that weekend? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Did you have any -- any followup 7 discussions with Mr. Sturdy or others at the Ministry 8 level with respect to the contingency planning for a 9 possible Park occupation? 10 A: I believe we went over it in detail, 11 ensuring that we had all the bases covered. As a matter 12 of fact, I think the notice to trespass was a district 13 responsibility and I hadn't received it as of, perhaps, 14 Friday or Saturday of that weekend and I was somewhat 15 concerned that I didn't have it yet. 16 Q: All right. To your knowledge, were 17 any calls made to the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation 18 to give them the heads up that there might be a Park 19 occupation as early as the Monday? 20 A: I don't believe so, from my 21 perspective. However, that wasn't part of my 22 responsibility to liaise with Kettle Point/Stoney Point 23 at that particular point in time. 24 Q: All right. Were any informal calls 25 made that -- to people within the aboriginal community,
2051 to your knowledge, who might be able to assist in the 2 event of an occupation? 3 A: Not to my knowledge. 4 Q: When and how did you first learn 5 that, in fact, the Park had been occupied? 6 A: It was, perhaps, the night of 7 September 4th, after the -- at the end of Labour Day 8 Monday. I believe it was around 7:30 or so on that I was 9 contacted. 10 Q: All right. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And just before we get to that, 15 perhaps I could take you to Tab 130, Inquiry document 16 number 1007834, and you'll see that the first page is a - 17 - a draft letter dated September 4th, 1995. 18 Is this a draft -- initial draft of the 19 notice under the Trespass to Property Act that was being 20 prepared for you? 21 A: Yes, I believe this is a copy of what 22 I forwarded to Ed Vervoort for -- as a draft and he was 23 to finalise the notice. 24 Q: All right. And three (3) pages in, 25 there's a handwritten note. It starts "Neal Ferris,
2061 registered archeologist out of London, called"? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you recognize that handwriting? 4 A: Do I -- pardon me? 5 Q: Do you recognize the handwriting? 6 A: I do not. 7 Q: Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Ferris 8 was being contacted with respect to -- or that he 9 contacted the MNR with respect to something about the 10 occupation of the Army Base? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: Okay. Next page is an e-mail dated 13 September 3rd, 1995 from yourself to Peter Sturdy and 14 does this provide -- does this provide an update to Mr. 15 Sturdy about what events or, at least, what actions had 16 been taken at the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And was this in anticipation of the 19 possible occupation on Labour Day? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So that sur -- to your knowledge, 22 surveillance equipment had been installed by the OPP? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: A remote command post outside the 25 Park had been selected on Ipperwash Crown beach, closest
2071 to the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you know where that site was? 4 A: Yes, it was one of our Crown beach 5 parking lots. 6 Q: Parking lot. Was that off East 7 Parkway Drive? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: It said that, "We have had to order 10 ten (10) more cement barriers." 11 Do you know what that was for? 12 A: Off hand, no. 13 Q: Do you know whether they, in fact, 14 were installed? 15 A: I don't recollect. 16 Q: All right. It indicates that: 17 "Picnic tables will be moved around 18 Stoney Point cultural site today and 19 tomorrow." 20 Do you know why that was going to be done? 21 A: I don't recall. 22 Q: Do you know whether it was done? 23 A: I believe it was, yes. 24 Q: "Keys to all facilities are being 25 distributed to the OPP", you said that happened?
2081 A: Yes. 2 Q: "We are in the process of moving the 3 majority of equipment to Pinery, should 4 be completed Tuesday or Wednesday." 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: Okay. And as of Monday was there any 7 equipment -- significant equipment left in the Park? 8 A: They were -- they were moving 9 equipment out Monday. 10 Q: But was anything left behind? 11 A: Not to my recollection. 12 Q: All right. 13 "Because we -- our -- our 14 concessionaire Ron Merner will be 15 moving his equipment to the Pinery." 16 Was that -- did he operate the store, the 17 Park store? 18 A: Ron Merner was a concessionaire that 19 operated the Park store and restaurant, yes. 20 Q: And arrangements for OPP to provide 21 routine security checks during the off season has been 22 completed, is that right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Then there's also an e-mail from 25 Sherry Phillips, Administrative Assistant, to the
2091 distribution list. It's dated September 1, 1995, and it 2 reflects the composition of the Emergency Response Team 3 for Ipperwash. 4 Is that information accurate and did you 5 receive this? 6 A: I can't recollect whether I received 7 this from Sherry Phillips or not. 8 Q: Is it accurate? 9 A: I believe so. 10 Q: All right. I'd like to enter this 11 full document as the next exhibit, please, with the phone 12 numbers again redacted? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-878, Your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 878. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-878: Document number 1007834. 17 E-mail from L. Kobayashi to P. Sturdy 18 Re:" Ipperwash" September 03/95. 19 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: All right. Now, you indicated that 24 you were informed of the -- the Park occupation on -- on 25 the 4th were you?
2101 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And do you recall who 3 contacted you? 4 A: It was Assistant Superintendent Don 5 Matheson. 6 Q: And do you recall approximately what 7 time of the day or evening it was? 8 A: I believe it was around 7:30. 9 Q: And did Mr. Matheson tell you what 10 had occurred? 11 A: I believe so. 12 Q: What did he relay to you? 13 A: He relayed to me that there -- there 14 were a number of occupants within the Park, that they 15 were -- they were going to take over the Park. 16 Q: That they were going to take over the 17 Park? 18 A: That they were taking over the Park, 19 yes. 20 Q: Okay. At the time that you received 21 this telephone call were MNR staff still in the Park? 22 A: Yes, they were still moving equipment 23 from my -- my understanding as well as moving the rest of 24 the visitors out of the Park. 25 Q: Okay. Now, where were you when you
2111 received this telephone call? 2 A: I was at home. 3 Q: And how far away is home from the 4 Park? 5 A: Oh, about -- from Ipperwash probably 6 let's see, forty (40) minutes -- forty-five (45) minutes. 7 Q: All right. And what did you do in 8 response to receiving this information from Mr. Matheson? 9 What's the first thing you did? 10 A: Put my uniform on and hopped in my 11 car and drove down to Ipperwash. 12 Q: Okay. Where did you go to? 13 A: I went right to the main gate of 14 Ipperwash where there's -- there -- there was a crowd of 15 people and the OPP and Don Matheson. 16 Q: All right. When you say, "the main 17 gate," can you show us on the map behind you and describe 18 the location using the microphone for the record? 19 A: The -- the main gate of the Park is 20 right in here. 21 Q: All right, you're -- 22 A: This is the main road into the Park 23 and the main gate is up in here. Oops, sorry, here. 24 Right in there. 25 Q: All right. So that's inside the Park
2121 boundary? 2 A: Yes, it is. 3 Q: And it's to the east of -- of Army 4 Camp Road? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what building is it near? 7 A: There was a little kiosk where we 8 collected the fees for entering into the Park. 9 Q: Okay. And were you able -- did you 10 go in with your vehicle? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And you were able to gain entry with 13 no difficulty? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And approximately what time would 16 this have been? You received the call at about 7:30 and 17 it takes forty (40) to forty-five (45) minutes to get 18 there. 19 A: I think it was around 8:20. I think 20 my notes indicated to me that it was around 8:20. 21 Q: And you say, "your notes," which -- 22 A: I had made mental notes of what time 23 I got there and I think it was around 8:20. 24 Q: Did you say mental note? 25 A: Mental. I recall --
2131 Q: All right. 2 A: -- that it was around 8:20. 3 Q: I just want to make sure there isn't 4 -- there aren't written notes that I don't know about. 5 A: There wasn't any written notes, yeah. 6 There wasn't any written notes. 7 Q: Thank you. 8 A: Other than e-mails that I had 9 generated later. 10 Q: Yes. No, and we'll certainly get to 11 those. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Thank you. All right. Now, let me 14 ask you this. When you arrived at the Park main gate at 15 approximately 8:20 p.m., first of all would you describe 16 the lighting conditions? 17 A: At that time it was still daylight. 18 Very bright, well overcast I believe at the time, it 19 seemed overcast and it was still light. 20 Q: Were there any lights on within the 21 general area of the intersection or inside the Park 22 there. 23 A: Not at that time. 24 Q: Are there lights though? 25 A: No, there are not. Other than right
2141 at the kiosk itself or the kiosk itself. 2 Q: There are just lights at the kiosk? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Okay. No lights at the store? 5 A: Oh, yes there would have been lights 6 at the store. But the store was a fair piece away from 7 the control centre. 8 Q: Okay, thank you. Do you recall 9 whether or not there was any street lights in or around 10 Army Camp Road and either East Parkway Drive or Matheson? 11 A: There was not. 12 Q: Now once you re -- entered the Park, 13 what did you do? 14 A: I stopped my vehicle and -- adjacent 15 to some OPP vehicles. Don Matheson came over and spoke 16 with me and then we -- I spoke with one of the sergeants. 17 I think it was Sergeant Korosec, if that's the 18 pronunciation. 19 Q: And what did Sergeant Korosec tell 20 you? 21 A: He basically told me that these 22 people were -- were taking over the Park and that -- I 23 guess at that time I -- I -- that was about it. And he 24 wasn't very busy at the time and Don Matheson advised me 25 that -- I believe when I just go there, the last of the
2151 visitors were still leaving the Park. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: And he told me -- he went through the 4 details of what had been moved and what was left and so 5 forth. 6 Q: To your knowledge had the contingency 7 plan been enact -- or implemented? 8 A: To my knowledge, yes. 9 Q: And were you able to observe the OPP 10 and -- and First Nations persons from your vantage point 11 at the Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And approximately how far away were 14 the OPP cars from you? 15 A: From me? 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: Fairly close. Like it was from here 18 to the stage perhaps some of them. Like there was 19 several cars there and a couple of Ministry cars as well. 20 I know Don's vehicle was there as well. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: It was in a fairly confined area that 23 we were -- everybody was congested in the -- in the small 24 area. 25 Q: Can you tell me how many police
2161 cruisers you recall seeing at that time? 2 A: I don't recollect. 3 Q: Do you recall the approximate number 4 of police officers? 5 A: There were several. 6 Q: Do you know what the number -- 7 approximate number of First Nations persons who were 8 immediately visible? 9 A: Quite a number. 10 Q: Can you recall whether there were 11 more or less -- more -- fewer police officers than 12 Aboriginal people in the -- 13 A: There were quite a number of 14 Aboriginal people and even as -- when I arrived they were 15 still starting, you know, coming around, milling around. 16 Q: Okay. Did you recognize any of the 17 Aboriginal people there? 18 A: I don't recollect. 19 Q: Okay. Did you -- did you see any 20 Aboriginal people carrying weapons of any sort? 21 A: I saw an individual carrying a large 22 staff or a large stick. 23 Q: And -- and do you know who this 24 individual was? 25 A: It was pointed out to me that -- I
2171 believe his name was Judas George. 2 Q: Prior to this event, had -- had you 3 ever had occasion to meet with this individual? 4 A: I don't believe so. 5 Q: Who identified him to you? 6 A: I believe it was Don Matheson. 7 Q: All right. I wonder if you would go 8 to Tab 132, Inquiry Document Number 1010255 entitled 9 'Confidential Crown Brief'. And it appears to be draft 10 will states or a will state. Have you seen this document 11 before? 12 A: Yes, I have. 13 Q: And the second paragraph indicates 14 that you were informed by Don Matheson at approximately-- 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: -- 7:30 that at approximately 6:40 17 p.m. on Monday, September 4th, 1995, the occupation of 18 the Park had occurred? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: Is that your recollection? 21 A: Yes, it is. 22 Q: Were you also informed by him at that 23 time that a few trees had been cut by aboriginal people 24 to block Matheson Drive? 25 A: Correct.
2181 Q: And this indicates that you arrived 2 at approximately 8:20 p.m.; that's consistent with your 3 recollection? 4 A: Yes, it is. 5 Q: Okay. Now, how long did you stay 6 within the Park? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I don't recollect the exact amount of 11 time, but we were told to leave so. 12 Q: Can you tell me, who told you to 13 leave and what the circumstances surrounding that were? 14 A: Well, basically there was -- Judas 15 George was hollering and screaming, Get out of our Park, 16 this type of thing and I think he gave a count down at 17 the time, if my memory serves me correctly and it was 18 getting down around the time where we running out of time 19 and, of course, the OPP and all of us there -- there and 20 everybody was milling around us. 21 It was -- it wasn't a very pleasant 22 situation. The group were seen to be milling around us 23 getting bigger and the -- tighter, and the Ontario 24 Provincial Police were backing up, trying to -- to ensure 25 that they had a -- a method, I believe, of leaving the
2191 Park. 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: It got a little volatile. I recall 4 that Constable Parks, there was a flare thrown in amongst 5 us and it hit actually -- actually hit Constable Parks 6 and then Judas was -- was hollering and screaming, You 7 got one (1) more minute, two (2) minutes, three (3) 8 minutes and so forth. 9 And then he smashed out the back window of 10 a cruiser with his -- the staff that he was carrying and 11 Staff Sergeant Korosec then said, I think we should leave 12 and we backed off and left. 13 Basically, in general terms, that's what 14 happened. 15 Q: And did you personally observe and 16 hear all the things that you have just testified? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And on your will state at 19 page 2, does that accurately reflect your recollection of 20 the occurrence which you've just described involving -- 21 or reportedly involving Mr. George? 22 A: That is correct. 23 Q: Okay. And what did -- did you exit 24 the Park in your vehicle? 25 A: I did so. I backed the vehicle out.
2201 Q: All right. And what, if anything, 2 did you do on -- or as you exited the Park? 3 A: I went to the Forest Detachment 4 command centre as was identified in the -- in the 5 contingency plan that I should do. 6 Q: All right. Did you make any 7 telephone calls en route to the Forest Detachment? 8 A: I don't recollect if I did or not. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Do you recall whether or not you -- 13 okay. 14 Do you recall whether or not the other 15 members of your critical incident team were contacted? 16 A: I believe Don Matheson actually 17 contacted them prior to contacting myself, because I 18 believe my wife and family were out -- we were out for 19 dinner and we didn't really come home until about that 20 time when Don actually contacted me. 21 He may have tried me before, but I -- I do 22 know he contacted Peter Sturdy at the zone immediately 23 following the -- the -- the contingency plan. 24 Q: And how is it that you that? 25 A: Because Don told me, I believe, that
2211 he had contacted Peter. 2 Q: All right. By the time you vacated 3 the Park, to your knowledge were there any Park users or 4 staff or police officers left within the Park? 5 A: No, I believe we all left. All the 6 visitors were out of the Park; Don had confirmed that to 7 me -- confirmed that with me. 8 Q: Now, before leaving the Park, did you 9 say anything or attempt to say anything to the First 10 Nation people there? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: Did you try to communicate any notice 16 with respect to trespassing? 17 A: I don't believe I did. It was pretty 18 volatile. By the time I -- when I arrived it was a 19 pretty volatile situation and -- and once again the 20 Ontario Provincial Police were to take the lead so I just 21 stayed back out of -- out of the area of great -- what I 22 would suspect would be relatively dangerous for me. 23 Q: All right. Now, once you arrived at 24 the Forest OPP Detachment, what did you do? 25 A: I don't -- I don't recollect,
2221 actually, the specifics of what I did. 2 Q: All right. Do you recall 3 approximately what time you arrived at the Forest 4 Detachment? 5 A: I think it was around ten o'clock or 6 so. 7 Q: Do you recall whether or not at that 8 -- whether or not you closed the Park? 9 A: I believe I did. I believe I closed 10 the Park. However, I believe I was still waiting on the 11 Trespass to Property, the final version of the Trespass 12 to Property Notice. 13 Q: Would you look at Tab 132 in front of 14 you there, the second page, second paragraph? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: "I proceeded to Forest Ontario Police 17 Detachment arriving at approximately 18 10:00 p.m." 19 Does that sound about right? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: "At approximately 10:01 I officially 22 closed the Park under Authority of 23 Subsection 32.1 of Regulation 952, a 24 Revised Regulations for 1990 made under 25 the Provincial Parks Act."
2231 Does that refresh your memory? 2 A: That -- that I did. 3 Q: And what was the reason for -- the 4 official reason for closing? 5 A: That was a part of the strategy that 6 we used in respect to closing the Park ensuring that it 7 was officially closed at the time and as part of the 8 contingency plan. 9 Q: Now did you do that -- did you make 10 that own judgement call on your own based on the 11 contingency plan or did you consult with anyone? 12 A: I don't recollect either way really. 13 Q: Okay. Do you recall having any 14 discussions with respect to what your next step would be? 15 A: Yes. Actually contingency plan 16 identified that I would serve notice to the trespassers. 17 And as I mentioned earlier, I was still waiting for the 18 final version of the Notice to Trespass to be able to -- 19 to actually apply the Trespass to Property Act. 20 Q: All right. Now do you recall, prior 21 to that, whether or not you had any meeting or briefing 22 with John Carson? 23 A: I'm sure I -- I do recollect meeting 24 with him right about that time. I'm not sure if it was 25 at ten o'clock or 10:01 or whatever time. But I do
2241 recollect that -- of course we were all concerned about 2 how we were going to serve the notice, if I had the 3 notice, if the Park was officially closed and so forth. 4 And we had that conversation at some 5 point. I'm not sure exactly what time it was. 6 Q: All right. But it was that evening? 7 A: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. 8 Q: And if you look at Tab 131, which is 9 Exhibit P-426, Inquiry Document Number -- the one that's 10 been used as exhibit is 1002419. And the one in our book 11 is 14000066. And this has been identified as an excerpt 12 of the scribe notes taken at the -- at the command post 13 and during the evening of September the 4th. 14 And on the second page there's a time 15 entry of 21:45. It indicates that Les Kobayashi arrived, 16 briefed John Carson, Mark Wright. 17 Do you recall speaking with Inspector 18 Carson and -- and Mark Wright? 19 A: I do. 20 Q: Upon arrival? 21 A: Yes, I do. But I just wasn't sure 22 exactly what time it was. 23 Q: Okay. And it's further indicated 24 that -- attributed that you advised that: 25 "Judas was just uncontrollable and a
2251 thousand (1000) gallons of gas in tank 2 there." 3 Is that information that you imparted? 4 A: Yes. They asked me if there was any 5 flammables, explosives in the Park. And we just gotten 6 our tank filled up so I knew there was a thousand (1000) 7 gallons of gas there in the tank. 8 Q: And where was that tank? 9 A: It was located adjacent to the 10 maintenance facility. 11 Q: And was that something that was 12 locked up or was it easily accessible? 13 A: There was a lock on the -- on the 14 valve, yes. 15 Q: To your knowledge was it locked? 16 A: Oh, yes, I'm sure it was. 17 Q: All right. And it's also indicated 18 that you advised that if you served tonight Peter could 19 work on an injunction. 20 Was that in reference to the notice of the 21 Trespass Act? 22 A: Yes, it is. 23 Q: All right. You then indicated that 24 about 21:52 you contacted Mr. Sturdy and advised him of 25 the situation; did you?
2261 A: Yes. 2 Q: And is that the first contact you had 3 with him since arrival at the Park? 4 A: I don't recollect if I contacted him 5 in between, you now, while -- while going to the command 6 centre. 7 Q: Okay. And then returning to Tab 132 8 Inquiry Document 1010255 the Crown Brief, second page 9 third paragraph. 10 You indicated that it was decided that you 11 would serve notice under the Trespass to Property Act to 12 the occupiers at Ipperwash Park, is that right? 13 A: That is correct. 14 Q: And did you make any attempt to do 15 so? 16 A: Yes, it was decided that I would be 17 accompanied by an officer and that we would proceed to 18 the Park to serve the Trespass to Property notice. 19 Q: And would you kindly -- well, let's - 20 - I'd like to make this document the next exhibit at this 21 time, please? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-879, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-879: Document number 1010255. 25 Confidential Brief - Illegal Occupation
2271 of Ipperwash Prov. Park.- Sept. 04/'95 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: Now, would you kindly go to Tab 135 5 Inquiry Document 1012252. It appears to be a letter 6 signed by yourself dated September 4th, 1995. 7 Do you recognize that letter? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 Q: What is it? 10 A: It was the Notice to Trespass to the 11 property. 12 Q: Was it the one that you had with you 13 the night of September the 4th, 1995? 14 A: This is the one that was faxed to me 15 prior to 10:01 from Ed Vervoort. 16 Q: Okay. On September the 4th? 17 A: On September the 4th, yes. 18 Q: I'd like to make this the next 19 exhibit, please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-880. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-880: Document number 1012252. 23 Letter from L. Kobayashi to "whom it 24 may concern", Re: Order to leave 25 Ipperwash and Pinery Prov. Park under
2281 the Trespass to Property Act." Sept. 2 04/'95 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: All right. Now, did you in fact make 6 an attempt to -- to serve this notice of the Trespass 7 Act? 8 A: That night I attempted to a make -- 9 attempted twice to serve the notice. 10 Q: And you indicated that -- that you 11 were to be accompanied by a police officer? 12 A: Yes, I think -- I believe it was 13 Constable Vince George. 14 Q: All right. And did anybody else 15 accompany you? 16 A: There was an ERT team that was to 17 ensure our safety in respect to when we were delivering 18 the notice and they were fairly close to us. 19 Q: All right. And do you know 20 approximately what time it was that you attempted to 21 serve? 22 A: Not off-hand. I'd have to look at 23 the notes here. 24 Q: If you go to -- well, first of all 25 let -- let me ask you this.
2291 Did you arrive at the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And where did you go? Maybe you 4 could turn around and show us and -- and describe it for 5 the record, please, using the microphone? 6 A: Sorry. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: When we -- when we arrived at the 9 Park there's a crown beach area here that was -- the 10 command post was located at. 11 Q: The command post? This is the 12 parking lot off East Parkway Drive? 13 A: Correct. And from there Vince and I 14 and the ERT team walked down East Parkway Drive to Army 15 Camp Road. We went to the main entrance to the Park 16 which was gated, and from there the ERT -- ERT team and 17 Vince and I walked down the road. 18 Q: This is actually inside the Park? 19 A: Inside the main gate of the Park, 20 because there wasn't anybody at the -- at the entrance to 21 the Park, at the gate itself. 22 And it was extremely dark that night and 23 we had just our flashlights and we -- we proceeded down 24 the road about a hundred (100) yards and we -- a half ton 25 truck with Bert Manning and another couple of occupants
2301 met us there. 2 Q: Did you know who Bert Manning was 3 prior to this? 4 A: I had seen Bert Manning around 5 before, yes. 6 Q: All right, and then what happens? 7 A: And from there, we attempted to give 8 him notice. He said that he wasn't a spokesperson for 9 the Band. He basically told us to -- to leave. 10 He then said he was going to see if he 11 could find a spokesperson that would accept the notice. 12 He left, we waited. 13 I believe we waited for fifteen (15) 14 minutes or so, or ten (10) minutes, and you have to 15 understand the situation there. It was extremely dark, 16 there were no street lights. 17 There's -- it was like a tunnel because 18 there's trees on both sides and they had backed up and we 19 only had small flashlights with us, so it was -- to wait 20 the fifteen (15) minutes was an awful long time. 21 He then came back and told us to leave his 22 f-ing land; that there wasn't a spokesperson available at 23 this time, basically. 24 And I believe he said there would be a 25 spokesperson in the morning.
2311 Q: All right. Now, at any time during 2 the course of -- of your contact with Mr. Manning, did 3 you indicate to him what it was you were attempting to 4 do? 5 A: I really didn't get a chance to say 6 exactly what we were -- we were attempting to do because, 7 actually, Vince had actually -- knew the individual and 8 had started the conversation with him. 9 So, we didn't get to that point. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: He just jumped in his truck and said 12 he'd see if he could find a spokesperson and took off. 13 Q: Did Ms. -- did -- did Vince George 14 indicate what it was he was -- 15 A: I believe he said he had a notice 16 here. 17 Q: Had a? 18 A: Notice of -- notice of trespass for 19 him or I had. 20 Q: All right, and -- and then what did 21 you do after that? 22 A: We backed out, walked out then it was 23 decided that we should go down to Matheson Drive and, 24 once again, attempt to serve a notice. 25 Q: All right.
2321 A: So once again, it was very dark. We 2 walked down there, waited at the gate and an individual 3 came up on an ATV vehicle, a four (4) wheeler, and -- or 4 a three (3) wheeler, I can't remember exactly what it 5 was, it was very dark. 6 And we attempted to serve notice to him as 7 well. 8 Q: How did you attempt to serve notice 9 on him? 10 A: We tried to walk up to him to give 11 him the notice, or at least I and Vince did, and I was 12 trying to give him the notice and he kept backing off 13 with the -- backing up with the ATV not allowing me to 14 get close enough to give him the notice. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: And he just kept backing up and 17 backing up and started hollering at us and once again, 18 told us to get off their land. 19 Q: And were you able to identify this 20 individual? 21 A: I didn't know them personally. And 22 the other point, really, was, he says, we don't do 23 business at night, so. 24 Q: Who said that? 25 A: The person on the ATV vehicle, he
2331 just hollered at me. 2 Q: Now the ERT team, were they visible? 3 A: No, they were actually very hidden. 4 I was very surprised at the professionalism and so forth 5 and the stealth that they used because I just heard a -- 6 an actual twig or two (2) crack around me going down this 7 -- down this -- the entrance to the Park and -- but they 8 were there. 9 Q: Were they -- were they hidden during 10 the course of both of the attempted services? 11 A: Yes, they were. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: All right. Now, are you sure it was 16 just one (1) person who approached you, initially, at the 17 Matheson -- 18 A: No, actually there was -- 19 Q: -- parkway -- 20 A: I believe there was two (2) other 21 people in the vehicle, in the truck. 22 Q: Okay. All right, I'd refer you, 23 then, to Tab 132, which is now Exhibit 879, Inquiry 24 document 1010255. Second page, and third paragraph. 25 Does this appropriately or accurately
2341 reflect, then, the attempted first -- the first service? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 6 who's waiting for who. 7 THE WITNESS: I would say yes, this is 8 accurate. Sorry. I was just reading it, sorry, 9 Commissioner. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm listening now. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know. I 12 know. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, that appears fairly 14 accurate, yes. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: Does it refresh your memory with 18 respect to whether or not Mr. Manning advised you as to 19 what -- who or what needed to occur before a decision 20 could be made at the meeting? 21 A: Yes, he did say that. 22 Q: What did he say? 23 A: He said that Elders had not been 24 appointed yet and that -- that's when he came back. He 25 said that to us that there had not been anybody appointed
2351 as an -- as an Elder to accept the -- the notice. 2 Q: Thank you. And then the last 3 paragraph, does this reflect accurately the circumstances 4 of the second attempt at service? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now, in this document you have 10 identified some of the individuals who were at the second 11 service attempt, one (1) being a David George and another 12 being Joe George and you indicated to me you didn't know 13 who those people were at the time? 14 A: No, that was information that Vince 15 George had given me. 16 Q: All right. At the time? 17 A: At the time, yes. 18 Q: And just for sake of completeness was 19 there a third attempt to serve the notice? 20 A: That was the next day. Sergeant 21 Wright and I once again tried to serve the notice at the 22 -- adjacent to the concession off Army Camp Road which 23 would be right in here. 24 Q: All right. So you're pointing to the 25 interior of the Park just to the --
2361 A: Just a -- it was a -- there was a 2 fence adjacent to the -- the township land. 3 Q: The sandy parking lot? 4 A: Yes, that's right. And we attempted 5 to get someone -- their attention there and we -- we 6 couldn't. 7 Q: Did you actually enter the Park at 8 this time? 9 A: We did not. 10 Q: All right. I'd like to make this 11 document the next exhibit, please? Oh, I'm sorry, it is 12 an exhibit. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It already 14 is. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Excuse me. Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is 879. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, it is. Thank you. 18 THE WITNESS: And we also went up to the 19 Army Camp actually to attempt to serve as well. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: All right. And I am going to ask you 23 about that in a bit, but what -- what date did you 24 attempt service at the Army Camp? 25 A: I believe it was the next day as
2371 well. 2 Q: The 5th? 3 A: I believe so, yes. 4 Q: And can you tell me the circumstances 5 that gave rise to that? 6 A: I believe Mark Wright actually 7 indicated that perhaps we should go up there and try to 8 get their attention and to get someone's attention to 9 accept the service and then -- 10 Q: But -- 11 A: -- he was actually at the fence. I 12 didn't go up to the fence, I was still on the side of the 13 road when he was actually speaking to someone at the 14 fence. 15 Q: All right. And was -- can you tell 16 us where in relation to the built-up area this occurred? 17 A: I believe it was just south of the 18 built-up area. 19 Q: On Army Camp Road? 20 A: On Army Camp Road, yes. 21 Q: All right. And did you -- do you 22 recall approximately what time this fourth attempt at 23 service took place? 24 A: It was just after we -- we attempt -- 25 attempted to serve at the Park. We just moved up the
2381 road I believe. 2 Q: All right. And what time of day was 3 that? 4 A: I don't recall. 5 Q: Okay. And did you overhear any 6 responses made by -- to Mark Wright? 7 A: I didn't, no. 8 Q: Did you hear what he said? 9 A: Partially but not in -- not that I 10 could really decipher. 11 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Thank you. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, as at the time of the Park 16 evacuation was there any heavy equipment left behind by 17 the MNR at the Park? 18 A: Not to my knowledge. 19 Q: Were any vehicles left behind? 20 A: Not to my knowledge. 21 Q: There were gas reserves however? 22 A: Yes, there was. 23 Q: And were there any firearms or 24 weapons like batons left by the MNR within the Park? 25 A: Not to my knowledge.
2391 Q: Were there any operating telephones 2 within the Park to your knowledge? 3 A: Yes, I believe the telephones were 4 still on. 5 Q: Okay. Do you know where they were? 6 A: There would be one (1) on the 7 maintenance building, one (1) at the main gate and one 8 (1) in the concession. 9 Q: Was the one (1) at the concession a 10 Bell telephone? 11 A: Yes. There would be a -- there would 12 be a pay phone at the concession as well as inside the 13 concession, there would also be a telephone. 14 Q: Okay. Was there any operating 15 electricity within the Park when you left? 16 A: Everything was operating as far as I 17 understand. 18 Q: All right. Was there any operational 19 plumbing? 20 A: Everything was operational, yes. 21 Q: All right. Was there anything else 22 of significance left behind besides from the buildings 23 and fixtures and the furnishings? 24 A: I believe there was still equipment 25 in the concession that we couldn't move out. I believe
2401 there was odds and sods of some -- some things in the 2 maintenance building that were still there. 3 I know there was some boxes of old 4 uniforms and things like that, that the fellows had 5 mentioned to me that -- 6 Q: Box of what? 7 A: -- boxes of old uniforms, student 8 uniforms and so forth. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I believe there was some -- some of 11 that type of thing left. Other than that I don't believe 12 there was too much. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: There was tables of course and -- 15 picnic tables that were left. 16 Q: Okay. And did you go home at all 17 during the -- over the course of the evening of September 18 4th, early morning September 5th? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Where did you -- where were you 21 stationed for the majority of that time? 22 A: I was at the command post in Forest. 23 Q: And when you returned from the 24 attempted service, the second service -- 25 A: Yes.
2411 Q: -- where did you go? 2 A: Back to the command post. 3 Q: And do you recall approximately what 4 time that was? 5 A: I do not. 6 Q: All right. And do you know if it was 7 before or after midnight? 8 A: The second service? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: That would have been Tuesday 11 afternoon some time I would think. 12 Q: No, no, I'm sorry. The second 13 service that night. 14 A: Oh the second service that night? 15 Q: Yes. Attempted service. 16 A: Well it would have been in the 17 morning. 18 Q: Let me take you back to Tab 132, 19 Exhibit 879, page 3, top paragraph last line. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: "We left at 1:30 a.m., September 5, 22 1995, returned to Forest." 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Does that refresh -- 25 A: Yes, oh yes.
2421 Q: All right. So you would have 2 returned to Forest at approximately 2:00 in the morning? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And you stayed there for the balance 5 of the night in the command post? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: All right. Commissioner, I wonder if 8 we might just take an early adjournment -- it's ten to 9 5:00 but before I -- I launch into the next day of 10 proceedings? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I 12 think that will be all right. We've had a long day. No 13 problem. We'll start tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You expect - 16 - you do expect to finish this witness -- 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I will finish in the 18 morning tomorrow. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In the 20 morning tomorrow. Thank you very much. 21 22 (WITNESS RETIRES) 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 25 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, October 25th at 9:00
2431 a.m. 2 3 --- Upon adjourning at 4:53 p.m. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Certified Correct 13 14 15 16 17 ___________________________ 18 Carol Geehan 19 20 21 22 23 24 25