11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 October 21st, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 ABRAHAM DAVID ALVIN GEORGE, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-in-Chief 7 by Mr. Derry Millar 9 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 17 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 54 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Jonathon George 84 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 102 12 Certificate of Transcript 112 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 68 Mr. Bruce Cotten's (citizen) 17 4 video footage of Ipperwash 5 September 9, 1995 1:33pm released 6 by OPP in DVD format 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:06 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: Order. All rise, please. 4 This public inquiry is now in session. The Honourable Mr. 5 Justice Linden presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And good morning, Mr. 10 George. 11 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin, Mr. 13 Scullion wished to address you, sir. 14 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. Millar. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, 16 Mr. Scullion. Good morning. 17 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: For the record, Kevin 18 Scullion, counsel for the residents of Aazhoodena. 19 I rise this morning on behalf of our clients 20 and particularly on behalf of Mr. David George, who has been 21 testifying before you for the last two (2) days and for at 22 least one (1) day more. 23 I understand from our clients that there's 24 been a death in the community, Mr. Commissioner, which is, as 25 you may be aware, a significant event for First Nations. And
81 Mr. David George is a member or the Stoney Point Drummers. 2 They've been asked to drum at a funeral at Kettle Point 3 today. And that's scheduled for 1:00. 4 So I rise to request your consideration that 5 we adjourn today early. I would suggest 12:00 noon would be 6 a time that would allow Mr. George and other members of the 7 First Nation that are in attendance today to return to Kettle 8 Pointe for that funeral ceremony. Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have any 10 -- any comment, Mr. Millar? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. I have no comments 12 other than it would seem to me appropriate to break at 12:00 13 so that Mr. George could attend the funeral. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does anybody 15 have any objection? Yes, Mr. Roland...? 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, I have no 17 objection. But I'm going to -- if we're going to adjourn, 18 could we also adjourn for ten (10) minutes so some of us 19 could make arrangements for the rest of our day? If we're 20 going to adjourn at 1:00 we can make some calls and some 21 arrangements. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely. 23 Absolutely. 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a
91 short ten (10) minute recess so you can make adjustments, and 2 we'll continue. We'll have a morning break and we'll 3 continue 'til 12:00, and then we'll adjourn for the day. All 4 right? 5 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 6 inquiry will recess for ten (10) minutes. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 9:08 a.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 9:15 a.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 12 inquiry is now resumed. Please be seated. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are we okay now? 14 Are we all ready to proceed, more or less? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, Commissioner, we are. 16 17 ABRAHAM DAVID ALVIN GEORGE, Resumed: 18 19 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Mr. George, I'm going to play the video 21 that was taken on September 9th. And I would ask if you 22 could -- if you recognize the images in the video as we play 23 it. 24 And, Commissioner, this was taken on September 25 9th by a citizen and it was produced to the Commission by the
101 Ontario Provincial Police. 2 3 (VIDEO PLAYING) 4 5 Q: And at 1:33 p.m. on the timer, on 6 September 9th, there's a vehicle in the frame which is -- has 7 on -- written on it, "St. John's Ambulance", do you recognize 8 that vehicle, Mr. George, that trailer? 9 A: Yeah. That looks like the trailer that 10 was in the park. 11 Q: And the trailer that was in the parking 12 lot of -- 13 A: Yeah -- 14 Q: -- of the Ministry of Natural Resources? 15 A: -- the parking lot. 16 Q: And that trailer appears to be a trailer 17 that would -- it's a semi -- semi-trailer -- trailer. Was 18 there a tractor -- did you see that trailer with a tractor in 19 front of it? 20 A: Yeah. It had a -- some sort of a truck, 21 yeah. It was flat-faced on it; a transport truck, a small 22 transport truck. 23 Q: And do you know when that -- was that 24 small transport truck present when you were in the Ministry 25 of Natural Resources parking lot on September 7th?
111 A: Yeah. It was there. 2 Q: Do you know what happened to it? 3 A: Somebody took it. 4 Q: Okay. And -- Commissioner, we're at 5 seventeen (17) seconds on the timer, which is better than... 6 7 (VIDEO PLAYING) 8 9 Q: Now, I think you told us yesterday that 10 you didn't go into this trailer? 11 A: No, I didn't go in that trailer. 12 13 (VIDEO PLAYING) 14 15 Q: And, do you recognize the vehicle that's 16 in the frame now, it's at one (1) minute? 17 A: Yeah, that looks like the -- the 18 ambulance van that I might have kicked. 19 Q: And is that the -- the vehicle that you 20 told us yesterday that you looked inside? 21 A: Yes. It was locked up, I just looked in 22 the windows. 23 Q: Oh, oh, it was -- when you looked at it, 24 it was locked up -- 25 A: Yeah.
121 Q: -- and you just looked in the windows? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: So you didn't open the doors and go into 4 that vehicle? 5 A: No. 6 7 (VIDEO PLAYING) 8 9 10 Q: And at 1:34 on the timer on this video, 11 there appears to be a shot that's looking east down East 12 Parkway Drive towards the Park and the entrance to the Sandy 13 Parking Lot outside the Park, and there appears to be some 14 sort of barrier at the entrance to the sandy parking lot; do 15 you see that, Mr. George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And does that assist you with respect to 18 you're recollection as to whether or not there was a barrier 19 there after September 7th? 20 A: Yeah, there is a barrier put up after 21 September 7th. 22 Q: And can you -- 23 A: I don't know exactly what day it was, 24 because... 25 Q: And the barrier, why was the barrier put
131 up, Mr. George? 2 A: I'm not sure, I wasn't there, I was on 3 another part, I was on checkpoints. 4 Q: Oh, when the barrier was -- was put up? 5 A: Yeah. I'm not sure why the -- it was 6 probably to keep people out of there, I guess. 7 Q: And did you see the barrier, though, 8 yourself? 9 A: Yeah, I seen it myself. I went down 10 there once, checked it out, you know, I haven't been back to 11 the place in a couple days and I wanted to go back down and 12 see what was going on. And like, I was on kind of a break I 13 guess, from my checkpoint, and I came down and checked it 14 out. 15 And at that time when I was there, they had 16 some cottagers coming down the road there, and they pulled up 17 to the barricades there and they asked if everything was all 18 right and -- and I said, yeah, everything's all right. 19 And they asked if they can go up to there 20 cottages and get a few things and I said, yeah, sure, go 21 ahead, and so they went up there, went to their cottages and 22 they -- they found them all broken into, those people's. And 23 there was none of our guys that did none of that. 24 Q: And this was -- can you -- so when did 25 you speak to these people?
141 A: That was when I was at the barricades, 2 probably, it was around that time, I guess. 3 Q: Around September 9th or 10th? 4 A: Yeah, around there. 5 Q: And how long did that barricade stay up? 6 A: I'm not sure -- 7 Q: And -- 8 A: -- really, exactly how many days it was 9 up. 10 Q: -- the cottager that you spoke to, can 11 you tell us which cottage that -- the person went to? 12 A: It's the one that was just on the -- 13 right on the side of that barricade there. 14 Q: And if you look at P-67 behind you? 15 A: It must be somewhere in there. 16 Q: If -- perhaps on the map behind you, Mr. 17 George, I think it's P-67, the barricade appears on this 18 picture to -- 19 A: It was probably one of these cottages up 20 -- it was probably one of these cottages up in this area 21 here. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Because there's a road that comes up and 24 there's cottages here, cottages here, cottages here, cottages 25 here.
151 Q: Okay. Thank you. Do you know the name 2 of the person that you spoke to? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. And did they come back down and 5 tell what had happened? Is that how you found out -- how did 6 you find out that the cottage had been broken into? 7 A: I think they -- they were bringing their 8 stuff out and they had mentioned that they had been broken 9 into. That's how I think -- I think I went up to check it 10 out and somebody else went up to check it out. 11 But we never went in there or nothing like 12 that. We just talked to the people outside the cottage for a 13 minute or so. And they explained their house was broken 14 into. They were pretty distraught. And I told them that it 15 wasn't none of our guys that did it -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- not that I know of anyways. I'm 18 pretty sure none of our guys did it. 19 Q: Thank you. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 A: Looks like they're still building it. 24 Q: Pardon me? Yes, it does look like -- 25 A: It looks like they're building it. So I
161 was there after that, because it was already pretty much 2 finished. 3 Q: And, I may have asked you this but, do 4 you know how long it -- that it stayed up, that barricade? 5 A: I couldn't tell you how many days it was 6 up; maybe a week. 7 Q: Okay. Thank you. And with respect to 8 the altercation with the police on September 6th, I 9 understand there were two (2) other names of people that you 10 now remember were at the altercation? 11 A: Yeah. My cousin Buzz was there. 12 Q: And what's your cousin Buzz's name? 13 A: Dale. Dale Plane. 14 Q: Dale Plane. Yes. 15 A: Yeah. Al George. 16 Q: And Mr. Al George. Is he related to you? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: No. 20 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions, 21 Commissioner. And if I could mark this video, the CD -- the 22 DVD for the last video that we've just showed. The next 23 exhibit, I think it would be P-68? 24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir, P-68. 25
171 --- EXHIBIT P-68: Mr. Bruce Cotten's (citizen) video 2 footage of Ipperwash September 9, 1995 3 1:33pm released by OPP in DVD format 4 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And those are my 6 questions, Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, Mr. 8 Millar. I now ask Mr. Orkin on behalf of the Estate of 9 Dudley and the George family. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 12 Q: Thank you, Commissioner. Good morning, 13 Mr. George. 14 A: Good morning. 15 Q: For the record, I'm Andrew Orkin. I'm 16 co-counsel to the Dudley George Estate and to the George 17 Family Group, and it's my job now to ask you a few questions. 18 Before I begin, Mr. George, on behalf of the 19 Dudley George Estate and the Family Group and their legal 20 team, I'd like to acknowledge the extraordinary courage and 21 commitment that you've shown as an indigenous citizen and as 22 a member of your Warrior Society in upholding the rights of 23 your Nation and your Peoples. 24 A: It's an honour to do it. 25 Q: Mr. George, you mentioned in your
181 testimony on Tuesday that your grandfather told you, even 2 long enough -- even -- even before you were old enough to 3 take it in, that the Stoney Pointe lands and all of them 4 belonged to your People; is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Would it be fair to say that the loss of 7 your People's lands and the forced relocation of your 8 ancestors to Kettle Pointe then became and still is a very 9 important part and aspect of your life and your identity? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that the return of your People to 12 your Stoney Point lands, to all of them, is still a very 13 important part of your aspirations; is that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you told us Tuesday that starting when 16 you were still quite young that you participated in 17 activities and informational demonstrations about those 18 issues. Is that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: When might it have been and -- and at what 21 age that you began participating in those activities that you 22 became conscious of -- of these concerns? 23 A: I remember there was one (1) time when I 24 was real young, I was at a protest one (1) time -- I think it 25 was in Kettle Point. We were protesting on the beach there,
191 right on the front of the beach, and I -- I was kind of 2 young, but I remember every -- there was a lot of cars there. 3 There was -- people was playing pow wow tunes 4 and I remember some people in cottages turning up their 5 radios and stuff and they'd come out on the porch, swear 6 around and go back in their house. Everybody was drinking. 7 I remember being there. 8 Q: What age might that have been at? 9 A: Probably nine (9) or ten (10). 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Pretty young. 12 Q: Did that have -- did that activity and the 13 issues that that concerned have a major impression on you? 14 A: Actually, at the time, yeah, I knew -- I 15 knew what we were doing. They were taking the -- the beaches 16 back and that's the way I seen it when I was a kid. Me and 17 my brother were there, you know. Yeah, I remember it being a 18 long kind of thing, too. 19 We were there for quite a long time and I 20 remember I wanted to go home so, yeah, it was pretty -- I 21 remember that time pretty good and another time I remember, 22 must have been about maybe thirteen (13) or fourteen (14), I 23 remember protesting out in front of the barracks -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: -- and I made a bunch of signs up --
201 protest signs with sticks on them. I made a few of those up 2 and then my mom took us down here in front of the camp there 3 and I remember walking up and down the road there just 4 carrying that sign. I remember seeing the army guys in the - 5 - the base. There was no hostilities, though, not -- I don't 6 remember any back then. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: There was even police officers that pulled 9 up off the highway there -- pulled up on the side of the 10 road. I remember adults talking to them, but there was no 11 hostilities then. It's -- actually, I think the -- the one 12 (1) officer might have been Spike, if I remember correctly. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: And he came up and talked to us. 15 Q: And at those events you were present with 16 your -- with your parents and other respected elders of -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- of your people? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: So, this was part of your early education, 21 if you like, about your -- the -- the rights of your people 22 and the relationship to your land. Is that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: What was your goal in participating in 25 these demonstrations as you got older? In -- in -- in other
211 words, what was it that -- that -- that you wanted to 2 accomplish for your people? 3 A: I wanted to get all our land back. That's 4 what I wanted. I wanted to make sure that those -- those 5 treaties that they wrote with our people were honoured 6 because I could see, you know, you could watch TV and see 7 always the white man kicking the Indian's ass. Every movie I 8 seen, it was like that. I didn't like that. I -- I wanted 9 to change stuff. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. What was you understanding, you 11 mention the treaties, can you give us a brief sense of -- and 12 I know some of these treaty relationships are very complex 13 and large -- but can you give us a brief sense of your 14 understanding of that treaty relationship that your -- your - 15 - your people hold Stoney Point. 16 A: I knew it was a piece of paper that the 17 White Man used to steal our lands. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: I knew that and that's pretty much the way 20 I still see it. Like, they don't honour them, they just 21 write them so they can get what they want and then that's it. 22 Q: Right. 23 A: And it's still that way. 24 Q: These demonstrations and other activities 25 that you participated in -- and we've had you now and -- and
221 -- and -- and other witnesses such as Mrs. Bressette telling 2 this Inquiry about the many years of activity devoted to that 3 kind of demonstrations. Did these demonstrations and -- and 4 activities achieve the goals that you and your people had in 5 mind as you did them over the years? 6 A: No, nothing was working, you know, they 7 were -- they -- I heard that they had promised to return the 8 land after the war was over and they never did. I was 9 wondering why they still were in there. And I still wonder 10 why they were in there. 11 Q: But nevertheless -- 12 A: But they -- 13 Q: Sorry. 14 A: Like to, even to this day, like '93, when 15 we moved onto the Base, until '95 and they were still there 16 with us, it always made me wonder why the -- why the hell 17 they wanted to hold onto the place so bad. I knew that 18 something was going on. 19 Q: So you say nothing was working over the 20 years. How -- how did that make you feel? Did it make you 21 feel an element of frustration? 22 A: Yeah. And it made me feel like, I don't 23 know, kind of useless, I guess. They wouldn't listen, even 24 though we've done certain things, you know, been protesting, 25 this and that, nothing came about, just went on with life.
231 Q: So you felt, would it be fair to say, 2 that the Canadian Government and the Government of Ontario 3 were not listening to -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- and were essentially deaf to your 6 concerns -- 7 A: Yes, exactly. 8 Q: -- is that fair? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: You testified on Tuesday that you were 11 part of that original group that returned to Stoney Point in 12 1993, along with -- with Clifford George and Dudley George 13 and others; is that correct? 14 A: Well actually I was a couple of weeks 15 behind everybody else -- 16 Q: Right. 17 A: -- because I was still in school at the 18 time. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: My mom didn't want to tell me what was 21 going on because I was so close to the end of my -- my school 22 and she wanted me to finish it off before taking off, because 23 she knew I would just drop everything and come down, after 24 she told me -- if she told me that, that everybody else was 25 going in. And --
241 Q: I think that's -- 2 A: -- that's pretty much how I found out, is 3 because I was riding my bike down the road and I seen 4 everybody in there. 5 Q: I think that's good advice, I give my 6 kids the same advice. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Do you remember roughly when it was and 9 how it was that you first met Dudley George? 10 A: Oh, heck, I remember seeing Dudley when I 11 was a little kid. Heck, I was pretty young, I don't even 12 remember. I'd see him off and on through the years, I 13 wouldn't see him for a while and then I'd seem him a couple 14 times, and he would come up and talk to my mom. 15 And I remember them cracking up a few times, 16 laughing, I figured they were good -- good friends or 17 something. She told me that they were cousins, so... 18 I knew Dudley, in fact, pretty -- pretty 19 young, but never really start hanging out with Dudley until 20 '93 and I hung out with him quite a bit after that. 21 Q: So you would say, at least once you had 22 lived on the -- on the Base territory, which -- which you 23 were re-occupying, you came to know Dudley quite well? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Hmm-hmm. Mr. Commissioner, I wonder if I
251 could ask Commissioner Counsel to rerun that segment of tape, 2 if it works for us this morning, which had Dudley George 3 visible and -- and waving? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: It's Exhibit P-65. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's keep our 9 fingers crossed that it works. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 12 Q: I'll ask you a question in -- in the 13 meantime. During all of this time, particularly from 1993 to 14 1995, when Dudley was killed, do you -- do you believe you 15 had a chance to gain a sense of Dudley's aspirations and -- 16 and discuss them with him and discuss your aspirations with 17 him, and his ways of doing things and your ways of doing 18 things? 19 A: Yeah, I got to know Dudley pretty good, 20 and we'd sit there and talk about the -- the Camp, the lands, 21 and the way the White Man dealt with us, and, you know, we'd 22 sit there and talk a good -- good long time there. 23 He'd always be cracking jokes, too, so I got 24 to know him pretty good. 25 Q: And you had a fair amount of time after
261 moving onto the base in '93, a few weeks after the -- 2 Clifford and Dudley and the Pioneers had gone in. You had a 3 good -- good deal of time in which to do that? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Particularly through the winter? 6 A: Yeah. We'd always cruise around in 7 whatever vehicle we had at the time and as soon as we didn't 8 have no power or nothing like that, I had this inverter that 9 can turn -- you can hook it up to a car battery -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- and you can plug in a TV and VCR and 12 watch, you know, probably a movie before you have to run out 13 and start up the car. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: And everybody pretty much came down to my 16 place during the winters -- everyone -- everybody that was 17 there. There wasn't that many people. You know, Cliff was 18 there, but he never come over to my place to watch movies or 19 nothing. He was doing his own thing. 20 Q: And the subject of discussion a lot of the 21 time was your concerns about the land and the return of all 22 of your lands? 23 A: Yeah, it was pretty much everything -- 24 anything -- everything and anything you could of think of, we 25 talked about. You know, we'd sit there and eat pea soup --
271 my grandpa's recipe -- and everybody -- it was a quick and 2 easy soup to make, so I kind of had him over on -- many times 3 to sit there and eat. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: You know, sometimes somebody would buy 6 flour and somebody would buy peas and somebody else would 7 bring ham or whatever we wanted to put in it. We'd just sit 8 there -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- and cook it up and sit there and eat it 11 and watch movies. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: There ain't nothing else to do. Sometimes 14 you get cabin fever sitting around there, so it was good to 15 have other people around to talk to. 16 17 (VIDEO PLAYING) 18 19 Q: That's -- no, that's fine. Could you 20 describe what we saw there, for the record? 21 A: That was a -- that was a -- some elderly 22 women -- I believe it was Janet and -- and -- 23 Q: It doesn't really matter who they were, 24 but go ahead. 25 A: And Dudley was waving.
281 Q: Can you tell us where that took place? Is 2 that -- 3 A: That was at the main camp. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: My grandpa's camp. 6 Q: So this was a -- a community in 7 establishment, was it? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Is that accurate? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q. Yeah. This is where the people who had 12 moved back to the base were now making their home? 13 A: Kind of. Everybody was kind of in their 14 own family unit-type thing. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: And this was ours. I guess everybody was 17 on the lands -- piece -- piece of land that they were removed 18 from back in the day -- in '42. They just went back to that 19 same piece of land, like, you know, all the cousins and 20 uncles and everything. Everybody got together in that one 21 (1) camp -- 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: -- just like you see with Pearl's camp, 24 everybody's gathered in the one (1) spot there where her 25 house probably would have been and same with the Mannings.
291 They were off in that other end. That's the way it pretty 2 much was. 3 Q: We see in the video that Dudley was waving 4 at the camera person. Do you think that when -- when Dudley 5 was waving at the police or the military, or even giving them 6 the finger, as we've been told he did from time to time, or 7 even mooning them, that he was being in any way threatening 8 or intimidating? 9 A: No, no. How can you threaten them? They 10 got guns, they got clubs, they got their 4x4 vehicles and 11 they got all the armies to back them up, so how -- how can 12 Dudley even think that he was scaring them guys, you know? 13 He just done it just to -- because he was 14 pissed off, he might have said something like that to the 15 army guys that might have been going by a few times, but he 16 wasn't going to -- he wasn't trying to scare them, like, he 17 knew they weren't going to be scared. 18 If anything, he knew they would laugh at him 19 because they would always wave back and stuff going by. 20 They'd even wave at me and I'd be doing the same thing. 21 Q: So, you don't think the military or the 22 police had any reason to be threatened -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: -- by Dudley or anyone else doing these 25 things?
301 A: No. 2 Q: Do you think it's fair to say that -- that 3 Dudley was sending a message to the governments and, perhaps, 4 to Canadians using his actions and where he and you were -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, it's -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that's a 7 bit of a stretch. 8 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Okay. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- it's, you know -- we 10 can ask the witness what the witness did, what the witness -- 11 if -- we can ask the witness what the witness did and what 12 the witness observed and if he spoke to Mr. Dudley George, 13 what Mr. Dudley George said to him, but -- and I think My 14 Friend recognizes that he's gone a little too far. 15 To speculate what Mr. George might have been 16 thinking about in terms of the governments is -- it's pure 17 speculation. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a bit of a 19 stretch, Mr. Orkin. 20 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I'll opt not to argue at 21 this time. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 25 Q: Let me rather ask you is what you were
311 doing by re-occupying your lands and by waving at the police 2 or at the military or passing officials, sending a message of 3 some kind to governments? 4 A: Yeah. I wanted them to get out, get off 5 our land. It's been too long. They promised it back after 6 the war, but they never gave it back. So, what the hell were 7 they doing there? You know, they're not going -- they got no 8 respect from me. 9 They're -- they're on my land and I want them 10 off. That's, you know, pretty much why we were there. 11 That's why we moved on. We lived right on that land again. 12 And I can only imagine everybody else thought the same way. 13 Q: Thank you. You mentioned in your 14 testimony on Tuesday that your grandfather had told you how 15 the military had used or were using your People's burial 16 grounds and, in particular, headstones in your -- in the 17 Stoney Point lands, for example, for target practice; was 18 that correct? 19 A: Yeah. Yeah, he was -- he had mentioned 20 that every now and then. He'd be pretty pissed off about 21 that. 22 Q: And that pained him and upset him, and 23 you? 24 A: Yeah. He -- yeah, he was upset. He'd 25 always -- he'd talk about that and he's be cursing and
321 swearing about it. 2 Q: Did you ever see this happening, the use 3 of -- of headstones for target practice, or being desecrated 4 in any other way, or see evidence of this, such as bullet 5 marks on headstones? 6 A: Yeah, I seen bullet marks. I seen 7 headstones that have been destroyed and headstones that, you 8 know, there's nothing left but a -- a nub in the ground. 9 Pieces broken off of the corners on other ones and -- yeah, 10 it's like that. 11 Some -- a lot of graves didn't even have 12 headstones. It's kind of hard to find them because there's 13 nothing there. 14 Q: Can you tell us a bit about the impact 15 that this had on you and the way this made you feel? 16 A: Yeah. I -- I wanted to go and dig up 17 some white man's graves. I wanted to go and do what the -- 18 because the archeology, they did up our bones. That's, you 19 know -- and I thought like that too. 20 But, you know, I'd never do anything like 21 that. Why would I do that? And it always made me wonder why 22 they would do that. Why do they got to dig up our bones, you 23 know? Can't we even rest in peace after we're dead? 24 That always upset me, that, big time, yeah. 25 Q: You saw this as a form of disrespect to -
331 - 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- and desecration; is that -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- is that accurate? 6 A: Yeah. Desecration. They don't think 7 nothing of it. They teach their people in school to go and 8 dig up bones. That -- that upsets me. I don't know about 9 anybody else but I'm pretty upset about that. 10 Q: Do you think it's possible that any of 11 that damage that you saw, bullet holes in these headstones, 12 was done by Native people? 13 A: I don't know of any Native people that 14 would do anything like that. 15 Q: I'm going to move along now to another 16 subject. Mr. George, I anticipate that during this inquiry, 17 at some future point, it's possible or likely that there'll 18 be evidence presented to the Inquiry about a meeting that was 19 held of October 8th, 1993, starting at 2:15 in the afternoon 20 -- I'm sorry, December the 8th, forgive me -- thank you very 21 much -- which was held at Forrest at the Golf and Country 22 Club between councillors, elders, and representatives of the 23 Stoney Point People, and two (2) officers, a major and a 24 captain of the Canadian Military. 25 And the minutes of that meeting reflect that
341 you were present. Do you recall that meeting, perhaps? 2 A: Yeah. I think I remember something about 3 that time. 4 Q: Do you remember or recall anything about 5 -- the circumstances of this meeting and -- and how it came 6 about? 7 A: I think that was after -- 8 Q: That was December 1993. 9 A: Heck, I can't remember that long ago. I 10 think they were talking about returning the land or something 11 like that. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: I remember some time during that winter 14 everybody was happy -- some time during the winter. I 15 thought it was '94, though, I don't know. 16 Q: That's helpful. Thank you. I anticipate 17 as well that the minutes of this meeting -- if and when 18 they're introduced -- will show that the Stoney Point people 19 who were present made a request to the Military for some 20 investigations regarding damage to headstones and also made a 21 request that there be an investigation as to who was 22 responsible for protecting the burial grounds of the 23 Provincial Park. Do you recall that request being made at 24 that meeting? 25 A: Yeah, I remember something like that. I
351 remember other things. 2 Q: Do you know if anything was ever done 3 about those requests -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- or about any other requests that your 6 people made? 7 A: No. Nothing was done. 8 Q: Were your people ever contacted with the 9 results of an investigation in any way -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- that you were aware of? 12 A: I don't remember any contact being made 13 about that, no. Nothing's changed. 14 Q: As far as you were aware, was this request 15 made at -- on any other occasions about the headstones in the 16 burial ground. Was this something that was raised again and 17 again? 18 A: Yeah, there's lots of people talked about 19 it lots of times, but as far as a formal meeting with any 20 kind of government official, I don't remember any other 21 meeting besides that one. 22 Q: You mentioned in your testimony-in-chief 23 and -- and again a moment ago that you -- you came to an 24 understanding -- you put it -- I think the words you used 25 was, that, it came into my head, that that was your land --
361 all of it over there at Stoney Point -- your Peoples' land? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: I'd like you to -- to explain something to 4 me. At Stoney Point there, at the Base, as it then was, and 5 at the Provincial Park as it then was, there were 6 overwhelming visible signs that from the perspective of the 7 governments and the perspective of the Canadian and Ontario 8 state, this was not your Peoples' land and I'll give some 9 examples. 10 There were military buildings on the land. 11 There were military installations and shooting ranges that 12 you identified for us on the video. There were military 13 roads all over the land. And then on the Park, there was a - 14 - the infrastructure and facilities of the -- of -- of a 15 provincial campground and there signs and flags and all kinds 16 of official presence saying that this was DND and MNR 17 property and yet you remained absolutely convinced, did you, 18 that the Government of Canada and the Government of Ontario 19 were wrong? 20 A: Yeah, I knew they stole it. They're 21 thieves. They stole all the land. 22 Q: And you -- 23 A: We used to be all over the place here. 24 Now look at it, we've just got little wee pieces of land now. 25 Yeah, knew it, I seen it.
371 Q: And in spite of all of those official 2 signs of -- of -- of Government ownership and use, you -- you 3 and your -- your fellow demonstrators were convinced that the 4 governments were wrong -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- about the Stoney Point land? 7 A: Yeah. Yeah. 8 Q: And is it -- is it fair to say, or 9 accurate, that you were so convinced that you and your Stoney 10 Point -- fellow Stoney Point descendants were right and -- 11 and that the two (2) governments were wrong? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: That you were willing to defy all of those 14 fences and signs and the Military and the police and simply 15 move back? 16 A: That's what we did. 17 Q: You told the Commission on Tuesday that 18 one (1) of the first things that you, personally, did after 19 moving back into the Park on -- on or around September -- it 20 was, I think, in the morning of September the 5th, -- was 21 that you went around the Park removing the Park signs 22 because, as you put it, It wasn't a Park no more? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: So, you were saying that by being in the 25 Park and immediately removing the signs, or can we interpret
381 that you were re-asserting your people's original ownership 2 of that land? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the lands that your grandfather told 5 you were yours? 6 A: Yes. Because when -- after they took our 7 land, they put up those signs, and then they lied about 8 giving it back. They never did, so, down came the signs. 9 Q: So you were restoring that land to its 10 original status? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: As indigenous land? 13 A: It was our land. Yeah. 14 Q: Mr. George, I anticipate later in this 15 Inquiry there may be evidence led about a certain incident 16 that has been alleged to have occurred at the corner of Army 17 Camp Road and East Parkway Drive, around 7:00 or 8:00 p.m. on 18 September the 6th, 1995. That was the day on which Dudley 19 was shot. 20 So I'd like to ask you about the situation 21 there in the late afternoon and early evening, where you were 22 present; that's correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: We anticipate that the Ontario Provincial 25 Police will lead evidence that an incident took place around
391 that time, 7:00 or 8:00 p.m. at that corner of Army Camp Road 2 and East Parkway, involving eight (8) or ten (10) Native 3 males with Base -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you just 5 wait a minute, Mr. Orkin? Yes, Ms. Tuck-Jackson? 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, good morning 7 Mr. Commissioner. I rise at this point only because I have 8 grave concerns about the phraseology that My Friend has used, 9 that it is the OPP that is leading evidence. It's my 10 understanding that it's Commission Counsel that leads 11 evidence. Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, Ms. 13 Tuck-Jackson. 14 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: That's fair enough, 15 Commissioner -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's a fair 17 observation. 18 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- and I'll -- I'll 19 correct my -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- my phraseology, that 22 evidence may be led, originating from the OPP and I apologize 23 for that imprecision. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN:
401 Q: But there was an incident around that 2 time involving eight (8) to ten (10) Native males with 3 baseball bats on the roadway, in which a number of protestors 4 were banging or whacking with baseball bats on the car of a 5 passing non-Native woman. 6 A: No. 7 Q: If such an incident had occurred at that 8 place and at that time, of that variety, would you have known 9 about it? 10 A: Yeah, I would have known about it. And 11 that never happened, nobody got -- no passing woman got 12 attacked. That's crazy. 13 Q: So you were -- you were in the vicinity 14 of -- of the Army Camp Road and East -- East Parkway at -- at 15 those times or, if you were not, you would have heard or 16 learned in your view about such an incident? 17 A: Yeah. That's the first I ever heard of 18 that incident. I never heard nothing about that before. 19 It's crazy. 20 Q: Thank you. Mr. George, you told the 21 Commissioner on Tuesday that it's your right to hunt because 22 your People have done it for thousands of years; is that 23 correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: In what territory did your People hunt
411 for thousands of years? 2 A: All over the place, their land. 3 Q: Is it fair to say that when your people 4 are hunting on the land, that in addition to gathering and -- 5 and getting food and -- and sustenance, that your people are 6 occupying the land, as you always have? 7 A: Yes. We fish too. 8 Q: Can you tell us about the underlying 9 foundation or the basis as you see it, for the belief, for 10 your belief that the territories in which you hunted, 11 belonged or belong to your people. What -- what -- why is 12 that so? Do you have a belief about that? 13 A: That's because we belong to the land. 14 And you can't take land with you when you die, you can only 15 take care of it while you got the time on it. And you got to 16 make sure that your seven (7) generations are looked after. 17 When I die, I'm going to -- I'll be in there, so, yeah. 18 Q: And why do you believe that the 19 Government of Ontario and the Government of Canada should 20 respect that these lands are your People's lands? 21 A: Why should they respect? Just out of 22 respect this should be, you know. And we're humans too. 23 Q: To return for a moment to the events of 24 1993 and on, you mentioned that in August 1993 there had been 25 an encounter with some Ontario Provincial Police officers,
421 five (5) or six (6) of them, in which they were searching 2 your camp. 3 And you mentioned that they were threatening 4 everybody and waiving their guns around, and that they tore 5 your camp apart, and tore apart your kitchen, and threw your 6 things all over the place. Was that -- is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You also told the Inquiry that a steeple 9 was built in 1993 to put on top of the -- the argument hall, 10 which was an attempt, if I have it correct, to somehow 11 protect that building against anticipated damage? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: By? 14 A: By the military and maybe by people 15 wanting to do us harm. 16 Q: Right. And, Mr. George, yesterday you 17 testified compellingly about the events of the late afternoon 18 and evening of September 6th, 1995. And I'd like to say 19 before asking you these questions, that I do hope that one 20 day many more Canadians have an opportunity to reflect on and 21 understand your testimony and the things that happened to you 22 that day. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- I don't 24 think it's -- it's necessary -- 25 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I'll stop at that --
431 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- Mr. Commissioner. I -- 3 I -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 7 Q: Would it be fair to say that not long 8 after your people returned to your lands in '93 and '95, the 9 police seemed to be confronting your people when they 10 attempted to re-occupy it -- when you attempted to re-occupy 11 your lands, and that they were somehow -- I'll stop there? 12 A: Yeah. They probably didn't like us doing 13 what we were doing. Yeah, they probably -- 14 OBJ MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, Commissioner, the -- 15 the witness -- sorry -- the witness has testified about 16 certain interactions with the OPP and with the military. And 17 My Friend has put a question, sort of to ask this witness 18 what was in the minds of the Ontario Provincial Police, which 19 this witness simply cannot answer. 20 And I would ask My Friend to, if he would, 21 please, not to ask that kind of question, because I don't 22 want to interrupt his -- his cross-examination by getting up 23 and objecting. But he's asking this witness to think about 24 what somebody else did. And he can talk about what he did, 25 what he thought and what he observed.
441 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Mr. Commissioner, with 2 respect, I think it's fair and perhaps necessary to ask 3 reasonable questions about the witness' understanding of and 4 reaction to a profoundly compelling set of events, and to ask 5 the witness about characterizations of those events that he 6 finds reasonable and rational. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he gave a 8 fulsome description of those events yesterday but -- let's 9 proceed and deal with each question as it -- 10 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I'll bear the -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- as it comes 12 up. 13 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- I'll bear the concern 14 in mind and try and stay within what I think are reasonable 15 characterizations that the witness may find compelling. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 18 Q: You told the Inquiry on Tuesday that when 19 -- once you and your fellow demonstrators had occupied the 20 park on September the 4th, an incident occurred in which a 21 police officer told Dudley, Welcome to Canada; you personally 22 heard that said? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Did you? 25 A: Yes.
451 Q: What do you understand the police officer 2 to have meant in saying that and what was -- I'll phrase that 3 differently. What was -- what were the impacts of those 4 words on you as a fellow demonstrator? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's a fair 6 question. 7 THE WITNESS: He was -- he was basically 8 telling me that I'm not a Canadian, type of thing. But, you 9 know, I don't like saying I'm a Canadian anyways because of 10 what Canada's done to our People. 11 And so he was just taking a stab at us, I 12 think. That's what I perceived him to be doing. He was, 13 like, trying to tell me that, That's Canada on that side of 14 the line and this is Aazhoodena. So he was -- that's what he 15 was telling me. 16 And he wanted me to step outside the line so 17 he can give me a Canadian beating or whatever, something like 18 that. 19 And he -- he singled Dudley out, he -- he 20 looked through the crowd of people and he saw Dudley and he 21 pointed right at him, and he -- he threatened his life. Come 22 on out Dudley, you're going to be first. 23 Q: You also mentioned, on Tuesday, that you 24 were charged and fined for painting the words, Stony Point, 25 on some concrete blocks, on the perimeter of -- of -- of the
461 Stony Point lands? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: In terms of those charges, there was some 4 spray paint on some concrete. Was it your understanding that 5 it was simply the damage to some rock or some concrete, or 6 was there something from your understanding -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- underlying those charges? 9 A: Man-made rocks. 10 MR. DERRY MILLER: Well -- 11 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Again -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a minute. 13 Just a minute again, Mr. Orkin. I'm not sure what this is 14 about. 15 OBJ MR. DERRY MILLAR: How can Mr. George -- Mr. 16 George said that he recalls, he painted some stones, he was 17 then -- with the name, Stony Point on it, and he was then 18 charged. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, how can he answer the 21 question what the people who laid the charges were thinking? 22 He simply cannot. 23 And it's fair, as My Friend asked him, what 24 was the impact on you or what you thought, as -- in relation 25 to the incident with the police officer, but he can -- this
471 witness cannot say, and speculate, what was in the minds of 2 the people on the other side of the transaction. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 4 that's absolutely clear. Are there other objections? I 5 don't want to belabour this too much. Mr. Falconer...? 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Good morning, Mr. 7 Commissioner, and I'm sorry, if I didn't think this was 8 important from the point of view of Aboriginal Legal 9 Services, I wouldn't address the matter. 10 In being put through the criminal process, 11 with respect, one of the essential elements is communication 12 of the case to the individual. And it's exactly what's in 13 the view or in the minds of the state that's communicated to 14 the individual. And it's -- it's a key component to what 15 this person's experience is. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What is a key 17 component? He is charged, he -- 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No, it's a key 19 component on his understanding. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, well 21 that -- 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: What they're saying, he 23 did wrong. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not the 25 question that was asked.
481 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, in my submission, 2 that's what it amounts to. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's not 4 the question that was asked. I think you're right, but 5 that's not the question that was asked. 6 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Mr. Commissioner, with 7 respect, I -- I understanding the objection here, but I think 8 that we -- we have a situation that transcends the specifics 9 around which we're debating this objection. 10 This is a context in which Canadian law has 11 been used to charge and in other ways, act upon a situation 12 which involves conflict over the ownership of land. You 13 could call that political with a small "C". And I'm 14 attempting to go into the political meaning of charges and 15 convictions in a highly charged land-claims context, in which 16 this witness's experience of charges that are made against 17 him, may be that those with political -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- events. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: His 21 understanding of what was going on, I think you're entitled 22 to ask him about. I think the objection is you can't ask him 23 what the officers were thinking or intending. I don't think 24 he can answer that. 25 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, that's quite
491 correct -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- and I -- I really 4 wasn't -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 6 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- asking about the -- 7 intending to ask about that at all. So I will rephrase the 8 question. And thank you again for the -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- assistance. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 13 Q: What was your understanding of what was 14 really going on when after putting paint, carrying the words 15 Stony Point on some concrete blocks, you were charged and 16 fined? Was it -- was your understanding that this was only 17 about the damage to some concrete? 18 A: Yeah. Pretty much van -- they said I was 19 vandalizing private property and they got up on the stand and 20 lied to the Judge about that too, because I told them that 21 those blocks sink. And that's just what they done, they 22 sink. And them guys got up on the stand and lied. 23 There's new blocks now, but they're not the 24 same blocks I painted, they're probably nearly ten (10) feet 25 under the sand now. So, yeah, it was just -- they were just
501 pleasing the Cottagers. The Cottagers wanted to see somebody 2 get charged and those cottages are still on our land -- on 3 our land, and they charged me for painting the blocks on my 4 land. 5 Q: Mr. George, on the evening of September 6 6th, 1995 was Councillor Bernard George in any way 7 threatening the police as you saw it and you stood there and 8 you watched? 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Or threatening to the police? 11 A: No, he wasn't threatening to the police. 12 They probably seen him as a threat because of who he is, just 13 some Nishnawbe guy who were doing -- doing the thing he's got 14 to do, like what we all were. They see all of us as a 15 threat. 16 Q: Were the odds between Councillor Bernard 17 George and the police such that Bernard George had any 18 conceivable means of resisting the police? 19 A: I guess he could have clubbed -- clubbed 20 them with the stick that he had, maybe, or threw the scanner 21 at them -- maybe kick some sand at them. 22 Q: And the police in near proximity to him, 23 what were they dressed in and -- 24 A: They were dressed in -- 25 Q: -- what kind of police were they?
511 A: -- full riot gear. They had shields; they 2 had clubs, helmets, pads -- shin pads. They had steel-toed 3 boots. They had their -- I don't know what other kind of 4 club they had. They had handcuffs, guns, whatnot. They 5 probably even had mace, but they weren't going to use that. 6 Q: And -- and Mr. George, how was he dressed 7 and -- 8 A: He had just a lumber jacket on, I believe, 9 and a pair of blue jeans and maybe -- I don't know -- I don't 10 know if he had cowboy boots on or something like that, maybe. 11 Q: In your view, if -- if the police had 12 wanted to arrest Mr. George at that time and take him away 13 from the Park, was beating and kicking him a necessary part 14 of arresting him? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't -- 16 THE WITNESS: No. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't think 18 you need to -- 19 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean, that's 21 hardly a question. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 24 Q: Was it, in any way from the way he was 25 behaving, that it required ten (10) officers to -- to subdue
521 him? 2 A: No. 3 Q: On your perception? 4 A: No, he was talking to them. He was trying 5 to talk to them, he was trying to tell them not to bring 6 their guns here; not to do this because these are our people 7 and then the next thing you know he's getting the shit kicked 8 out of him. 9 Q: So, from what you saw, this was not a 10 normal police arrest but some kind of other encounter? 11 A: Yeah, I thought it was -- I perceived it 12 as a vicious assault upon Slippery. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 14 what he testified yesterday. 15 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He told us all 17 that. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 20 Q: Was there anything going on in the Park at 21 the time that could possibly have necessitated that kind of 22 occurrence? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You just asked 24 the same question again. 25 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Okay, I'll leave it. I'll
531 leave it. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 4 Q: Then, Mr. George, I have one (1) last 5 question for you. Yesterday you described a scene in which a 6 force of armed and -- and armoured riot police, as you've 7 just described them -- advance on a small -- on your small 8 group of demonstrators. 9 And you described a baton beating and then you 10 described a scene in which there were bullets flying all over 11 the place, injuring a number of demonstrators and -- and 12 killing one (1) of them. 13 In light of -- of that description and what 14 happened, do you feel it would be accurate to characterize 15 the situation as being a kind of war on your people in that 16 place and time? 17 A: Yeah. It felt like a gang war; it felt 18 like a gang fight. That's what it felt like. It felt like a 19 rumble, you know? They showed up with their goons and, you 20 know, they wanted to kick the shit out of us. 21 And because, you know, they just came in there 22 and done that and they left. They didn't even try and talk 23 to us. They didn't tell us nothing; they didn't say nothing. 24 They didn't -- they just came in, tried to beat everybody up. 25 They grabbed Slippery and as soon as they got one (1) guy,
541 they buggered off. 2 They shot everybody off and they buggered off 3 so, yeah, it felt like a gang war -- something like that. 4 You know that's -- felt weirdest. 5 I didn't think, you know, the cops were going 6 to do that, but, you see them on TV when after they shoot 7 people up they stick around and ask questions, but they 8 didn't do that here. They shot up the place and they 9 buggered off, so yeah, it did feel -- feel like we were 10 invaded upon by a foreign army. 11 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you, Mr. George. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, those are 14 all of my questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 16 much. Yes, Mr. Rosenthal? I know you'll make every effort 17 not to duplicate. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I shall indeed. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good morning, Mr. 21 Commissioner. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: Good morning, Mr. George.
551 A: Good morning. 2 Q: I think you know that I represent some of 3 the Stony Point people under the name Aazhoodena and George 4 Family Group -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- here today. And I should also begin by 7 complimenting you on your extraordinary efforts on behalf of 8 Stony Point and your extraordinarily useful testimony here 9 today. 10 A: Miijwetch. 11 Q: And then -- the fact that you're a graphic 12 designer, I think was also very useful because you made very 13 nice diagrams for us which we'll are going to benefit from, 14 so thank you. 15 Now, sir, you told us that you learned about 16 Stoney Point from your grandfather some years and continuing 17 for many years and one (1) thing you told us is that he had 18 spoken to us about graves that were located on the Stony 19 Point Reserve lands, including -- in the area that became the 20 Park. Is that correct? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And then you -- later in your testimony, 23 you told us that there were some graves found in the Park 24 area. Did -- did your grandfather help to locate those 25 graves based on his knowledge?
561 A: No. He got -- a medicine man went through 2 there and he found some and there were some guys cutting -- I 3 think they were cutting wood in there -- they seen some 4 divots in the ground. 5 Q: And were the areas where they found the 6 graves consistent with what your grandfather had told -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- you as far as location of the graves? 9 A: Yeah. Well, he said they were all through 10 the Park, but, you know, that's the only place we've ever 11 seen the evidence. 12 Q: I see. Now, when your grandfather 13 described what had been the Stony Point land and what -- in 14 his view and your view -- was still Stony Point land, 15 referring to the diagram that's in the back there, could you 16 tell us the -- the boundary of the land as you understood it 17 on that -- on that side, which would be the west -- west 18 boundary of the land? 19 A: Well -- well, our -- our land's pretty 20 big. It's -- it's bigger than what's shown here. Like, the 21 whole area's ours, actually, right up to the next highway 22 over here and up the -- past Ravenswood. It's -- it just 23 goes on. This is just a small piece of the pie here, but, 24 yeah, the boundary, as far as I know, it goes straight down 25 here.
571 Q: So you're now indicating going down Army 2 Camp Road or a little bit to the right of Army Camp Road and 3 going north to Lake Huron? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is that correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: There's a -- a line a little bit to the 8 right of where you were indicating, which represents a fence? 9 A: Yes, that's a fence there. 10 Q: There -- sorry -- down further on the 11 military part -- the camp part -- yeah, that line there that 12 -- 13 A: (Ch) 14 Q: -- you're indicating now and from the 15 bottom of the diagram going up and about a third of the way 16 from the right -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- see? Now, if -- if you continue that 19 line to the lake, would that represent the approximate 20 western boundary of the -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- former Stony Point Reserve? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And if you did that it would appear then, 25 and correct me if I'm wrong, that the sandy beach that has
581 been much discussed would be to the right of that line, in 2 other words, within the Reserve. 3 A: Yes, this whole area. 4 Q: So, the Reserve would have included not 5 only the Park, but also the sandy parking lot that has been 6 much discussed -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- outside the Park? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, according to your anticipated 11 evidence statement, sir, I -- I'm not going to be referring 12 to that diagram any more at the present time, but according 13 to your anticipated evidence statement, your grandfather 14 described to you some of the difficulties that he had when he 15 was relocated from Stony Point to Kettle Point, to you. 16 Is that correct? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. Ross? 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I think 19 that the actual evidence that has been put here would take 20 precedence over -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Anticipated 22 evidence. 23 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- his anticipated 24 evidence -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
591 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- and if there's a 2 question that's -- that he wants to raise, he -- he can raise 3 it without reference to the anticipated evidence. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it's a 5 matter of how you're asking the question again. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With your indulgence, 7 sir, may I have a moment with Mr. Ross? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, yes. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Anticipated 13 evidence -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 15 Commissioner. Yes, yes, I was just -- there wasn't any 16 evidence I was quoting from. It's just the fact that he 17 might be able to give us such evidence. In any event, I 18 would just like to ask the question if I may. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I -- I 20 think, Mr. Millar, did you want to say something before we go 21 on, or? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, there has been an 23 issue about anticipated evidence statements. And about what 24 use -- 25 COMMSSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What use --
601 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- can be made of them. 2 And a very large issue and it was the position of Commission 3 Counsel we advise the parties that outlines of anticipated 4 evidence were simply that. That they were not to be used for 5 cross-examination without the leave of the Commission, 6 without the leave of the Commissioner, without your leave. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- I didn't 8 have a sense that you were going to be cross-examining. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I was not cross- 10 examining. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know. It's 12 just a question of how you use it that we want to be careful. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. I -- I was just 14 indicating an area that I was going to get into. I wasn't 15 cross-examining on it -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You -- you could 17 have brought -- 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I shall do so without 19 reference to it. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 21 much. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I apologize for any 23 misunderstanding. Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 25 much.
611 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sir, did your 2 grandfather tell you some of the problems that he had faced 3 as a young man when he was relocated from Stony Point Reserve 4 to Kettle Point Reserve in 1942 at the time of the 5 appropriation? 6 MR. ABRAHAM DAVID GEORGE: Yeah. I remember 7 probably a sad thing he told me one (1) time is he used to 8 tell me about waking up in the morning and having a snow 9 drift across his legs in bed. 10 Q: Right. Because of the conditions? 11 A: The house -- the house, yeah, it was just 12 cracks in the walls and stuff, there was no insulation. 13 Q: What about the social situation as a -- 14 as a -- 15 A: Yeah he -- 16 Q: -- as a Stony Pointer being moved to 17 Kettle Point? Did he discuss that at all? 18 A: He never told me this but my mom told me 19 this that he got worked over by a few guys there one (1) time 20 when he was coming home. 21 Q: Why was that? 22 A: I don't know. Just because he's from 23 Stony Point. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: How can he ask -- firstly, 25 the -- it's double hearsay. But accepting that for the
621 moment, how can Mr. Rosenthal ask a witness on double hearsay 2 why was his grandfather beaten up? And I know the witness 3 has already given an answer. But we don't know why and 4 perhaps Mr. Rosenthal will wish to make an argument at the 5 end of the day. 6 But the -- this witness can't say why his 7 grandfather was beaten up. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. But it was 9 kind of -- you -- you were just going to -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He just might be able 11 to say what his mother told him. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- what his 13 mother told him. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: What -- what he was 15 told about and it is hearsay evidence of course. But it 16 might be of assistance and we do have a (ch) oral evidence 17 and I -- I don't understand the problem. And you will give 18 it appropriate weight I'm sure, Mr. Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, yes. I 20 think you can ask him what his mother told him. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. You were telling 22 us that your grandfather didn't tell you but that your mother 23 gave you some information about that. 24 MR. ABRAHAM DAVID GEORGE: Yeah. 25
631 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: And that -- that he had some difficulties 3 there and -- and did she give you any indication as to her 4 understanding as to why he had that difficulty. 5 A: Yeah. Because he's from Stony Point. 6 There was three (3) -- three (3) guys jumped on him. I can't 7 remember their names. She told me their names of these three 8 (3) individuals that jumped on my grandpa just because he was 9 from Stony Point. 10 Q: We've -- we've heard that the 11 appropriation and the putting people from Stony Point at the 12 Kettle Point created some animosity on both sides. And is it 13 your understanding from what your mother told you that this 14 was a reflection of that? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Thank you. Now you told us about being 17 active in some protests along Highway 21 and handing out 18 leaflets and so on, on behalf of the return of Stony Point to 19 the Stony Point people? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: I understand that Dan and Melva George -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- were quite active in those protests. 24 Is that correct? 25 A: Yeah, I remember seeing them there too.
641 Q: And did they play an organizing role as 2 far as you understood to some extent? 3 A: Yeah. They -- they were like advisors. 4 Q: And you handed out leaflets. What was 5 the message of the leaflets? What did you want people to do? 6 A: They were telling people about the -- the 7 land that was promised back after the war and how the Indians 8 -- us -- gave it -- we never gave it, but we were 9 expropriated off. 10 Q: And there were at least several such 11 demonstrations over a period of some years, I gather. 12 A: Yes. Yeah. 13 Q: Is that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Thank you. Now you told us that as a 16 cadet, you were actually in the army camp as a cadet -- as a 17 young person -- is that correct? 18 A: Yes. Yes. 19 Q: At the time you were there, was there a 20 big concern expressed to the cadets about the danger of 21 unexploded ammunition as they walked around? 22 A: No, not at all. 23 Q: Did you just walk all over the area 24 without -- 25 A: Yeah.
651 Q: -- any concern about that? 2 A: That's pretty much what we did, yeah. 3 Q: Sorry? 4 A: Yeah, that's pretty much what we did. 5 Q: Have you gotten the understanding that one 6 (1) of the claims given sometimes as to why it's so slow to 7 return the land is because of the danger of unexploded 8 ammunition? 9 A: Yes. Yeah. 10 Q: And so, what's your view of that claim? 11 A: I think it's -- it's bogus, partially 12 because they let their cadets run all free all over the 13 place. The only time they marked places off is when they 14 were using a firing range and then they would -- the whole 15 area right down to the beach, they would made sure no one was 16 driving in that area. 17 They had sentry posts set up and they would -- 18 we would stop vehicles from going by, sentry duty. And that 19 was the only time they -- they marked -- or they stopped 20 people from going in certain areas, but other than that, 21 anytime they weren't fighting -- I mean out shooting cadets - 22 - shooting guns, they would let the -- 23 Q: Rather than shooting cadets, hopefully. 24 A: -- they would let the cadets run free all 25 over the place.
661 Q: Now, in 1993, I understand that there was 2 a march by Stony Pointers to Ottawa? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you participate in that march? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Could you tell us a bit about that, sir? 7 A: It was a long walk and it was tough, man, 8 it was real tough. 9 Q: Did you walk all the way from Stony Point 10 to Ottawa yourself? 11 A: Not all the way. I think there was a 12 couple -- maybe two (2) or three (3) -- days that I couldn't 13 walk at all. There was a lot of people. Almost everybody 14 had days like that where they couldn't walk because of great 15 big blisters on your heal like that, or it feels like there's 16 great big nail coming up through your foot. 17 It's like we were walking anywheres between 18 twenty-five (25) to fifty (50) kilometres a day and this was 19 everybody. It wasn't just three (3) people it was the whole 20 people. Everybody was walking. 21 Q: And what was the message that you were 22 carrying to Ottawa? 23 A: We want our land back. We want the army 24 out of there. 25 Q: And what happened when you arrived in
671 Ottawa? 2 A: Kim Campbell, she had a media blackout; 3 there was no cameras to take our stories. It was pretty dead 4 when we got there. There was a few people that knew about 5 what was going on. They were there. You know, there should 6 have been a lot more people there than that because -- but 7 she had -- she wouldn't allow cameras up there. 8 She wouldn't even come out and talk to us 9 either. We just went up there and marched right up to the 10 doors there and -- where some people met us and they had 11 drums there. There were some people speaking -- well, a few 12 speaking, yeah. 13 Q: People speaking outside the House of 14 Parliament, was that? 15 A: Yeah. It was our -- our peoples that were 16 speaking. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: But they never had no -- nobody come down 19 and see us, talk to us or nothing -- nobody from inside the 20 building. 21 Q: Nobody from the Federal Government 22 received you at all? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: After you marched to Ottawa? 25 A: Yeah.
681 Q: And so what happened after that? Did you 2 -- 3 A: We just came home. 4 Q: During the course of your testimony some 5 videos were shown of -- from 1993, four (4) and five (5) 6 showing the occupation of the army camp, first the rifle 7 range and so on. Did anybody ever ask permission of any of 8 you before they took any of those videos? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Were you and other people there aware that 11 videos were being taken from time to time? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And did that cause you any concerns with 14 respect to your privacy as you went about your daily lives? 15 A: Yeah, we feel -- felt like we were being 16 watched all the time and then we got used to it after a while 17 -- somewhat. 18 Q: And one gathers that the way Dudley George 19 dealt with that, partially at least, was by waving and making 20 jokes and so on. Is that correct? 21 A: Yeah. Yeah. 22 Q: And by all accounts he was somebody who 23 add a lot of humour to live? 24 A: Yeah. I don't remember ever seeing 25 Dudley mad. Like except for when somebody brought up
691 something to do with cops or the army, I never seen Dudley 2 mad. 3 Q: Now you told us that Dudley told you that 4 he shot a deer at one (1) point. 5 A: Yeah, he said he -- he mentioned he shot 6 a deer. 7 Q: Was that his first deer that he ever got, 8 do you know? 9 A: I'm not sure. 10 Q: At one (1) point you -- you told us that 11 you shone lights on helicopters, is that correct? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Why did you do that? What was the point 14 of doing that? 15 A: Because we figured -- we seen their 16 cameras from time to time. Whenever we could see them and 17 figured they were night vision -- night vision equipment so 18 we'd shine them up and they wouldn't be able to see through 19 our lights. Because we seemed -- it felt like we were being 20 attacked too, so it was our only defence with the spotlights. 21 Q: Now at the time that you were searched 22 you've told us about and you told us that the police had some 23 piece of paper that they waved at you or something like that? 24 A: Yeah. They never let me look at it. 25 They -- I think he pulled it out of his pocket up here and he
701 showed it like that and that was it. 2 Q: And did you ask to look at it? 3 A: No. Well they were there kind of goose, 4 hey. They were -- my dog was barking and he was saying you 5 better lock up your dog or I'm going to shoot it. 6 Q: Were the police at all apologetic about 7 entering your home? 8 A: No. No. They were very rude. They just 9 shoved their way in basically. 10 Q: And what was their explanation? 11 A: They were looking for rifles or 12 something. They said that a helicopter got shot. 13 Q: We -- we've heard about the "OPP WHO" 14 car. Can you tell us what it meant, "OPP WHO", what did it 15 mean to you? 16 A: We weren't recognizing the police. There 17 were no -- they don't recognize us so we don't recognize 18 them. The Crown, the Queen, all of that stuff. They don't 19 recognize us, we're not going to recognize them. 20 Q: You told us about some sheds of Kevin 21 Simons. The first question I would like to ask you, is there 22 was an ice cream shed and then there was a different shed 23 that he had been living in, is that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So we -- we have to be careful no to
711 confuse the two (2) different sheds. And the ice cream shed 2 you told us was one (1) that had been at Kettle Point and had 3 been used to -- to sell ice cream there, is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And do you know what ultimately happened 6 to that shed? 7 A: I think it's still down at camp. I think 8 it's down there somewhere. I think it's in the bone yard 9 actually. Where we keep all the cars. 10 Q: But then there was another shed that 11 Kevin had been living in. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you told us that you saw Kevin and 14 his brother Marlin coming -- Kevin coming up quickly to get 15 his brother Marlin and then them going back to that shed one 16 (1) morning. 17 A: Yeah. 18 19 Q: And you then followed. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And you saw that a truck was removing 22 some refrigerators in particular, and stoves? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what did you understand those stoves 25 and refrigerators were for?
721 A: They were -- I understood them to be 2 Kevin's possessions. 3 Q: And to be used for what did you know? 4 A: To keep food cold. 5 Q: I'm sorry? 6 A: To keep food cold. Maybe he was 7 intending on having the power in that place. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. Mr. 9 Ross. 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I don't 11 want to really unduly restrict My Friend. But I don't think 12 that this is adding anything to the evidence in-chief to ask 13 what a fridge is for or a stove is for. I just don't 14 understand where we're going with this. Plus the fact it's 15 taking up a lot of time. 16 As far as I want this to be just a file, I 17 don't want it to be my career. And if we can just sort of, 18 you know, stick to things which are practical, which has got 19 some end result, I -- I can stay seated. You know, I think 20 in terms of the terms reference. You see, he's not even 21 expanding on the direct testimony. It's just a repeat of the 22 direct testimony and the only gaps that are being filled in 23 is those things which common sense can tell us to fill in. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 25 much, Mr. Ross.
731 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect, Mr. 2 Commissioner, I don't understand My Friend's objection. I 3 was about to get to another point related to that. 4 My question on the stoves and fridges was: 5 What were they for? Not to keep food cold; I didn't expect 6 that answer. But that they were -- they were for the other 7 Stoney Pointe people was my understanding, but this witness 8 did not give that answer. But that -- that's fine. 9 But -- but I -- I wasn't inquiring -- I know 10 that a fridge is used for keeping things cold. And I -- and 11 I do think it's important to clarify the two (2) different 12 sheds, and the incident with Kevin Simon's shed, the latter 13 shed that I'm about to be discussing, does have some 14 significance. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you -- are 16 you close to completing your cross? Because this might be a 17 good point to take a -- a break. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm -- I'm in your 19 hands, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you very 21 close? I just would like you to finish it. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh, I'm -- I'm not 23 close to finishing, but -- and I'm in your hands. If you 24 would like a break, that's fine. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. We've
741 been - we've been an hour and half, we started at 9:00. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's a 4 good time to take a break. Thank you very much. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This inquiry will recess for 6 fifteen (15) minutes. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 10:35 9 --- Upon resuming at 10:52 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This inquiry is now resumed. 12 Please be seated. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before we 14 start up again -- just before we start up again, I just want 15 to say something. This isn't with respect to any particular 16 objection or any particular Counsel, but I do think it's 17 important that all of us keep in mind, you know, that this is 18 a Public Inquiry. 19 We're all anxious to -- to move it along. And 20 cross-examination that tests credibility of witnesses or -- 21 or elicits evidence or information that didn't come out 22 during examination-in-chief and that is relevant to our 23 mandate and is helpful, is welcome. 24 But I think it's important that we try, all of 25 us, our best to keep cross-examination relevant to our
751 mandate and that we not simply repeat evidence -- evidence in 2 chief. It isn't helpful and it will prolong this Inquiry 3 indefinitely. 4 It's not directed at any particular Counsel or 5 any particular objection. It's all of us. I'm sure you 6 agree with me, and I -- I think that's all I need to say 7 right now. Thank you very much. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. And I -- to 9 apologize for having established fact that refrigerators keep 10 things cold. I don't think -- that wasn't required evidence 11 at this Inquiry. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We can take 13 judicial notice of that. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 Q: But I was referring to the refrigerators 17 and so on that had been taken from Kevin's shed because I 18 wanted to follow through on that incident a little bit more. 19 Now I understand that after the military took a number of 20 objects from his shed, somebody burned it down. Is that 21 correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And do you know who did that? 24 A: No. I never seen who burnt it down. 25 Q: And then you mentioned briefly something
761 that was done -- done afterward at Lieutenant Governor's Day 2 and I just want to clarify that a bit if I can. 3 Lieutenant Governor's Day evidently was a 4 time when they had a graduation ceremony for cadets, is that 5 correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that year at the graduation ceremony 8 I understand that some of the Stony Point people took the 9 ashes of Kevin's former residence and dumped them on the 10 grounds as part of a protest, is that correct? 11 A: Yes. Yes. 12 Q: And at the same time they spoke about 13 Stony Point being returned to the Stony Point people? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now from what you told us it appears that 16 from your direct knowledge, you can say that the camp was 17 very little used. The army camp was very little used from 18 1993 on for any military purposes, is that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: But nonetheless they didn't return it to 21 you right away? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Now you mentioned during your evidence 24 that there was a trailer that you assumed, you concluded was 25 an OPP trailer that was in the Park as we're approaching
771 September of 1995. Do you recall that evidence? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now was that trailer in a place where 4 there normally would be trailers? If they were just ordinary 5 park users? 6 A: Yeah. I guess so. There's trailers 7 there. 8 Q: There were other trailers there too? 9 A: Yeah. This one was parked kind of closer 10 to the fence though. It was like right in plain view. Like 11 we can see it and whoever was in there could see us. 12 Q: And -- and what made you think that that 13 was a police trailer? 14 A: Because one time I knew it was a police 15 trailer and I knew they were watching us because one time, 16 like I knew it then, so I went on on our beach and I had a 17 fire one time. 18 I built a fire right there with our truck. I 19 sat in my truck and there's my cousin's truck and we had some 20 young people with us. 21 We were taking on -- I think there was some 22 people that were there, they were just -- they showed up kind 23 of and we were telling them about what was going on, showing 24 them the place. 25 And we were drinking pop there -- I had a case
781 of pop on top of my truck and we were listening to music, pow 2 wow tunes whatever, just having a good time, you know. The 3 next thing you know and the next day I see it on the paper, 4 front page of the paper it showed -- they talked about us 5 being drunk and disorderly or something like that. 6 Q: I see. 7 A: And said that we were going wild or 8 something. 9 Q: And where you had done that would have 10 been inside of that trailer? They -- they could have seen 11 you from that trailer? 12 A: Yeah, they could have seen us. They were 13 looking at us. 14 Q: Now -- 15 A: I assumed that they were taking photos 16 from that trailer because it was right there. 17 Q: Now as far as taking over the Park, re- 18 occupying the Park, evidently you decided to wait until the 19 season for the Park was over at the close of Labour Day, is 20 that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that was because you didn't want to 23 have a disturbance with the ordinary users of the Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now moving to the picnic table incident
791 in the sandy parking lot when the officer pushed the picnic 2 table with his vehicle? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did the officers say anything to you then 5 as to what they wanted you to do? 6 A: I don't remember any officer saying 7 anything. 8 Q: Did they say you're okay if you're in the 9 Park but we don't want you in the parking lot or anything 10 like that? 11 A: No. They never said nothing. They just 12 come in and started rattling picnic tables. I don't remember 13 anything being said by the police. 14 Q: Now you told us that at one point on 15 September 6th, you noticed three (3) officers drive up in an 16 unmarked car and then go over the fence into the bush? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: On East Parkway Drive? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Do you recall at about what time of day 21 that was on September 6? 22 A: It was pretty dark out by then, I don't 23 know, probably shortly before the cops -- the rest of the 24 cops come down the road, probably, I don't know, probably 25 maybe twenty (20) minutes, twenty -- fifteen (15), twenty
801 (20) minutes before they come down the road. 2 Q: And how were those officers dressed, 3 those three (3) officers who came out of that car? 4 A: It was too dark to see. 5 Q: Were they -- were they in plain clothes 6 or wearing -- 7 A: I think they had their -- their grey 8 fatigues on, because you could barely see the outline from 9 the -- the lights on the car. You could see that they had 10 their fatigues on. 11 Q: As -- 12 A: They -- they weren't carrying shields and 13 I don't think they had any helmets on, I'm not sure, I never 14 seen the helmets. 15 Q: Did you notice if they had any rifles 16 with them? 17 A: I'm pretty sure they had short -- short 18 rifles or something. They had a bunch of gear around their 19 chest area. 20 Q: And then later that evening when the 21 police were marching down the road, and, to end the shield 22 chatter, as they call it, did they tell you anything? Did 23 they make any announcement, we want you to stay in the Park, 24 or anything to that effect? 25 A: No. They never said nothing. They were
811 just barking orders at their own people and there was -- 2 there was like, I don't know, there was one (1) guy that was 3 walking around, he just looked like he was pretty pumped up, 4 he was shaking his arms around like that, just stomping 5 around. He was -- he was -- looked like he was mad. But 6 then -- nobody said nothing to us, -- 7 Q: And so you -- did you have any idea as to 8 what they wanted of you at that point, and what they were 9 intending to do? 10 A: We assumed they were there to take us out 11 of the Park or something, kick our ass. 12 Q: Now, when Cecil Bernard George walked out 13 that evening, as you've told us, you indicated he was 14 carrying a walking stick? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Did he at any time raise that walking 17 stick in a manner that could be used to attack someone? 18 A: No, if he was going to attack somebody, 19 he would have took a swing. He -- he never even took a 20 swing, he was -- I think a -- his one (1) hand up to his ear, 21 he must have been listening to the radio or something, and he 22 was trying to talk to those people and -- he wasn't even -- 23 he wasn't in no position to strike or nothing, he was just 24 standing there. 25 Q: And, can you picture the first
821 interaction between him and officers as to what happened? He 2 walked up to them, he was trying to -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- was he talking? 5 A: Yeah, he was talking and they just ran 6 him right over and I think he -- he might have put his arm up 7 like that to block a -- a strike, and he just went down on 8 his back, and they just proceeded stomping him. 9 Q: Do you recall any of the words that he 10 was saying at the time? Did you hear the words? 11 A: Yeah, he said, you don't have to do this, 12 don't bring your weapons here, these are unarmed people. 13 Those are the only words that I remember him saying. 14 Q: And was he still talking as he was 15 overrun? 16 A: Yeah. Well, -- 17 Q: He tried to take -- 18 A: -- him (ch) at a moment he was overrun, 19 he -- quit talking. 20 Q: Yeah. You told us that the next day you 21 went to the MNR parking lot with the -- with the St. John's 22 Ambulance vehicles? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then you beat the van? 25 A: Yeah, I gave it a couple kicks.
831 Q: Why did you do that? 2 A: I was just venting my frustration and 3 anger. 4 Q: What -- was it the fact that it was 5 labelled St. John's Ambulance, did that have any particular 6 effect on you? 7 A: Well, yeah, because St. John's Ambulance, 8 they wouldn't help -- come to help Dudley or anybody else 9 that night. It was their God damn ambulance, they wouldn't 10 let us use it. And it wasn't -- that one that was there 11 wasn't even an ambulance, there is no life-saving equipment 12 in there. 13 Q: At the end of your Evidence-in-Chief, Mr. 14 Millar asked you what, if anything, would you have done 15 differently and you indicated you would have had a camera 16 there? 17 A: Yeah. Camcorder. 18 Q: Why did you want to have a camera there? 19 A: Because if we had a camera there, we 20 could have filmed everything, from Slippery getting beat up 21 to when the shooting started, you know. We could have filmed 22 everything that happened. 23 Q: So, a video camera would have been the 24 kind of camera you would have liked? 25 A: Yes.
841 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you again very, 2 very much for your testimony, sir. 3 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 5 Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 7 much, Mr. Rosenthal; The Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point 8 First Nations, Mr. George. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JONATHON GEORGE: 11 Q: Thank you, Commissioner. Good morning, 12 Mr. George. 13 A: Good morning. 14 Q: How are you doing today? 15 A: Not bad, yourself? 16 Q: For the record, my name is Jonathon George 17 and I represent the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation. I - 18 - I want to preface my questions, Commissioner, by simply 19 indicating that I -- I -- it's not my intention to be 20 repetitive and -- and I certainly don't want to do that, but 21 there are certain areas that I would him to amplify and 22 expand upon, areas which Mr. Millar and Mr. Rosenthal have 23 already questioned him about and I -- I intend to be quite 24 brief. 25 Mr. George, with respect to the events of
851 September 6th in the evening hours, just -- I just want to 2 confirm that I have an accurate account of your testimony 3 that you gave yesterday. I believe you indicated that you 4 initially observed the officers coming down East Parkway 5 Drive towards the Park. Do you recall what time that was? 6 Was it completely dark at that point? 7 A: Yeah, it was completely dark. 8 Q: Okay, and I believe you also said -- and 9 correct me if I'm wrong -- that when the officers were 10 approaching or when you first saw them, you, and perhaps some 11 others, were on the paved roadway? 12 A: Yeah, we were checking it out. 13 Q: And -- and the purpose of being out on the 14 paved roadway was just that -- to see where they were? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And the purpose of going there was 17 in response to information Cecil Bernard George had given 18 you? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And if I recall correctly, Mr. 21 George, it was at that point -- at the point that you saw the 22 officers coming down East Parkway Drive -- it was then that 23 you and perhaps the others, moved back into -- inside the 24 fence in the Park? 25 A: Yes.
861 Q: Okay. And is it fair to say that at that 2 point, everyone, including Cecil Bernard George, was inside 3 the fence? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: In the Park? Okay. And you described 6 also, the officers approaching or rushing or descending upon 7 the fence area on two (2) occasions, I believe, right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And it was after the second 10 approach or rush, if I can call it that, that Cecil Bernard 11 George proceeded out into the parking lot area? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And I believe you said that either 14 you or someone else began to walk out with them but then 15 changed your mind and moved back inside the Park? 16 A: Yeah, when they started running, that's 17 when -- there was only a couple of us out there, kind of -- I 18 guess kind of like delegates, I guess. 19 Q: Okay. And -- 20 A: Come out with Slippery, but as soon as 21 they -- they charged up -- I don't know -- I took a couple of 22 steps back and I thought Slippery was going to come back, 23 too, but he didn't. 24 Q: Okay. Now, let me ask you this now, Mr. - 25 - Cecil Bernard George was not a resident at the army camp,
871 was he? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. And he was not involved in the 4 initial takeover/occupation of the Park on September 4th, 5 1995? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And, going back to September 6th, 8 at this time when the officers approached the fence, how long 9 had Mr. Cecil Bernard George been there? You -- you 10 described him yesterday as approaching -- coming up and 11 meeting you guys from the beach area? 12 A: Yeah, he wasn't there too long, probably - 13 - he just came up, gave us the walkie talkies and shortly 14 after that is when the cops came down. 15 Q: Okay. So you don't recall the exact 16 amount of time he was there, but it wasn't that long? 17 A: Yeah, it wasn't that long -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- probably -- maybe ten (10) minutes -- 20 ten (10) -- fifteen (15) minutes. 21 Q: And if I could take the liberty, Mr. 22 George, of characterizing your testimony, is it fair to say 23 that Mr. Cecil Bernard George came there in friendship to be 24 supportive. He brought -- 25 A: Yeah. Yeah.
881 Q: -- walkie talkies and he was kind of -- 2 A: -- that's what I kind of -- that's what it 3 seemed to be, yeah. 4 Q: Okay. He -- he brought the scanner. He 5 brought the walkie talkies. He expressed his concerns about 6 the officers -- I believe you termed it massing down the 7 road? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And I don't want to rehash this 10 point because you gave a very detailed and good description 11 of what you saw in how you observed Mr. George's and the 12 officers' actions, but is it fair to say that Cecil Bernard 13 George did not, at any time, verbalize any desire to engage 14 in a confrontation with the police? 15 A: No. No. He was there talking peace. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: He didn't want them, the cops, to come 18 down and kill anybody or shoot anybody up or beat anybody up. 19 Q: And was that the impression you got from 20 Mr. Bernard George prior to the officers coming, that that 21 was his intention in being there, based on what you saw and 22 heard? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Now you also yesterday spent a 25 considerable amount of time indicating on the Exhibit P-67, I
891 believe, where you were in relation to what was going on. 2 But in terms of distance, how far were you from Cecil Bernard 3 George at the time the officers first surrounded him and 4 began to strike him? 5 A: Probably maybe ten (10) feet behind him. 6 Q: Okay. You were quite close? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And was that confrontation, the 9 officers striking him, at least initially, was that stagnant? 10 Was it occurring at the same place or was it moving back, 11 away from you and the others? 12 A: No. The cops, they -- they punched out. 13 They ran right at us and Slippery happened to be there and 14 they run him over but that didn't stop their line from 15 advancing. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: There was just -- they just closed up the 18 ranks and the -- there were cops behind that first line, they 19 kind of surrounded him -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- and proceeded beating him. 22 Q: Were they all doing this at the same time 23 or were there a group of officers continuing to advance -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- while there were others --
901 A: They were still advancing. 2 Q: Okay. The officers who were dealing with 3 Mr. Bernard George, were they advancing as well? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: They were just sitting there. They were 7 -- they sat there for a good, at least fifteen (15) seconds 8 it seemed. They were beating him on the spot. They pretty 9 much beat him into submission there, then they dragged him by 10 his hair -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- from there. And they were still 13 beating him on -- all over the place. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Because it looked like a dead body they 16 were dragging, because he was limp. 17 Q: Now, at least initially, prior to them 18 dragging him back, away from where the initial confrontation 19 took place, did -- appreciating that you engaged in the other 20 events, but did you have a clear view of what was going on -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- with respect to Cecil Bernard George 23 and the officers? 24 A: Yeah. I knew they were here to do some 25 damage.
911 Q: Okay. Now, yesterday, Mr. George, in 2 response to a question by Mr. Millar, you indicated that 3 there were about ten (10) officers involved with Mr. Bernard 4 George. Do you recall that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And you also indicated that -- in 7 a follow up question to that, Mr. Millar asked you, And then 8 what happened? -- and for the benefit of My Friends, I'm 9 referring to page 114, line 21 of the transcript. You 10 indicated: 11 "There were guys grabbing him by his coat 12 and there were still people beating on him 13 while they were dragging him across the 14 ground. And it looked like he was -- he 15 was trying to cover himself, but he was 16 just getting beat and beat and beat. And 17 then pretty soon he was just limp..." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: "...and they were still dragging him by 20 his hair." 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Do you remember saying that yesterday? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. Now, one thing that interested me 25 out of that was your description of him becoming limp at some
921 point. And -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- based on was you saw, did you equate 4 that with or was it your belief that he had lost 5 consciousness? 6 A: Yes. He -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- he was unconscious. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And they -- those cops, they made sure 11 that everybody was watching it. 12 Q: Okay. And I understand also from your 13 evidence that they continued to strike him after -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- his loss of consciousness? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And was it at that point, after 18 him losing consciousness, that they began to, just so I 19 understand the sequence of events, that they began to drag 20 him by the hair? 21 A: Yeah, pretty much. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: He might have came to, I don't know, 24 like, they were dragging him pretty good across the ground. 25 They were kicking the hell out of him, beating him. Yeah, he
931 was limp. 2 Q: Okay. And he -- he has long hair, 3 similar in length to yours? 4 A: Yeah. Yeah. It's probably longer. 5 Q: Okay. You also described the reaction of 6 Mr. Bernard George's sister, Gina Johnson? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And, if I understand your 9 testimony correctly, it was her reaction and her indicating 10 that, Somebody do something, that's what in fact led to the 11 bus and car coming out of the park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And, going back to Gina for a 14 moment, Gina is the sister of Cecil Bernard George? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And she's quite a bit younger than Cecil 17 Bernard George; isn't she? 18 A: Yeah. I guess so, yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And you also yesterday gave a very 20 detailed list of who was present at the park at the time of 21 these events. I just wanted to ask you whether or not 22 Jeremiah George, Delbert George and Stacey Burger George were 23 there as well? 24 A: I know Stacey was there. And I'm pretty 25 sure Jeremiah was there. But I don't remember seeing Delbert
941 -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- I don't recall seeing him, not until 4 the next day or so. 5 Q: Okay. And Jeramiah and Stacey Burger 6 George are younger siblings of Cecil Bernard George as well; 7 right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And to your knowledge, would they have 10 observed the same thing Gina Johnson observed? 11 A: Yes, everybody did. 12 Q: Okay. Now you described this as a 13 prolonged beating, and I believe you said that even though 14 you felt it took a long time, the events in their entirety 15 lasted for about five (5) to ten (10) minutes...? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Well, probably five (5), ten (10) 19 minutes. 20 Q: Now of that five (5) to ten (10) minutes, 21 how long did you observe the officers striking Mr. Bernard 22 George? 23 A: They -- they were doing it the whole 24 time. 25 Q: Okay.
951 A: They didn't -- they never stopped, not 2 until they -- they start moving down the road, probably when 3 they threw him in the paddy wagon, probably when the bus was 4 right up there, they threw him in the paddy wagon. They were 5 working him over behind the paddy wagon too, before they 6 threw him in. They -- they never stopped beating him. 7 Q: Okay. And given the distance you were 8 from Cecil Bernard George and the officers, were you able to 9 at any point discern, and I appreciate it would have been 10 extremely difficult at that time, were you able to discern 11 any injuries being sustained by Cecil Bernard George? Blood, 12 cuts? 13 A: I think he had blood on his mouth. 14 Q: Okay. You could see that then? 15 A: Yeah. Like a little bit on his lips. 16 Q: Now you described at least initially, 17 being about ten (10) feet from Cecil Bernard George and the 18 officers. And then you described the officers dragging him 19 back. So I take it from that, that the distance was ever 20 increasing? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Between yourself and Cecil Bernard 23 George? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay.
961 A: You could see the whole crowd though, you 2 could see that -- that -- it's like a pack of dogs, a pack of 3 wild dogs on the one dog, it was just like that. You could 4 see that crowd moving like that. You could see the arms 5 swinging up like that, you could look over at the cops, you 6 could still see them arms swinging. 7 Q: But while some officers were engaged with 8 you and the others, another group of officers was proceeding 9 back with Cecil Bernard George? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And I hate to jump back and forth, 12 but I earlier asked you about Gina Johnson, her comments 13 which, I understood, led to the bus and the car coming onto 14 the Park? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. In your view, was the bus -- I 17 guess I'm assuming that you, at all times, had -- had a clear 18 view of Cecil Bernard George, but in your view, and if you 19 don't know, say so, did the bus and the car coming out, was 20 that effective in stopping the assault on Cecil Bernard 21 George? 22 A: Yeah, it seemed to be, like, because as 23 soon as the bus was up there, that's when they -- they start 24 moving, and we seen the arms flailing, we seen the group 25 behind the -- the -- the van there, and as soon as the -- the
971 bus came up there, everybody start panicking, and that's when 2 they start moving away. 3 But you could see that group right behind 4 there, they were still dragging Slippery, they were still 5 beating on him, you could see the arms -- 6 Q: Now -- 7 A: -- over the crowd of police there. There 8 was quite a crowd of police. 9 Q: Now, appreciating, Mr. George, you 10 couldn't know at the time, did you later become aware of the 11 fact, and I anticipate we will hear evidence to this effect, 12 that Mr. Bernard George lost his pulse and lost consciousness 13 while en route to the hospital? Did you become aware of 14 that? 15 A: I wasn't aware of that until like after 16 everything was done. 17 Q: Okay. And based on what you saw, does 18 that surprise you? 19 A: No, that doesn't surprise me. I -- we -- 20 I thought he was dead. 21 Q: Those are my questions, Mr. Commissioner. 22 Thank you, Mr. George. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 24 Thank you very much. The Chiefs of Ontario. 25 MR. THIEW HORNER: Thank you, Commissioner.
981 The Chiefs of Ontario don't have any additional questions. 2 Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 4 much. Mr. Eyolfson, on behalf of Aboriginal Legal Services. 5 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Thank you, Commissioner. 6 In light of the areas covered already, Aboriginal Legal 7 Services has no further questions this morning. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 9 much. Ms. Tuck-Jackson, the Province indicated they had no 10 intention to cross-examine, so I won't bother asking, 11 although I see you're standing. 12 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 13 We may have a few questions but I'm wondering if, with the 14 consent of my colleagues for the OPP, OPPA, and Mr. Harris, 15 if we might defer our potential cross-examination until after 16 they have had an opportunity to ask their questions. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They may ask the 18 questions that you -- 19 MS. KIM TWOHIG: We're just wondering if we 20 can go later in the order, if in fact we have any questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What order are 22 you suggesting then? Who would you suggest go next, the OPP? 23 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then the 25 OPPA?
991 MS. KIM TWOHIG: OPPA then Mr. Harris as 2 counsel and then us. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does anybody 4 have any objection to that order? Nobody seems to have any 5 objection. 6 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's leave it 8 at that then. So the next cross-examiner -- I see it's 11:15 9 is the OPP, Ms. Tuck-Jackson, you indicate -- or Mr. Roland, 10 I'm not -- I'm sorry Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson, you indicated 11 about an hour to an hour and a half. 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I did, Mr. 13 Commissioner. I must confess in light of the hour I'm rather 14 reluctant to commence for two (2) reasons. I'm not confident 15 that I could conclude in the forty (40) minutes, forty-five 16 (45) minutes that remain. We have then a one (1) week break 17 between the testimony and obviously the preference is to keep 18 it together. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 20 problem isn't it? That when we have this break, and a 21 person's in the middle of a cross-examination it makes it 22 difficult. There's forty-five minutes. 23 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: The other concern 24 that I have and again, I'll be quite candid with you, Mr. 25 Commissioner, I won't be returning on November 1st. It will
1001 be my colleague Mr. Sandler returning on November 1st and I 2 have some concerns although I'm sure that we would cover the 3 same points. They may be covered in a somewhat different 4 fashion and I want to ensure consistency as between the two 5 (2) of us. In fairness to the witness as well. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand. I 7 understand. We're -- we're obviously going to have to 8 continue with this cross-examination when we return in any 9 event. Mr. Millar, do you want to give me any advice? I 10 always look to you when I don't know what to do. Give me 11 some advice? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well perhaps if counsel 13 are in agreement that the -- the Ontario Provincial Police 14 Association's going to a half day and so that they'll have 15 the same concern. Mr. Harris thought he would be -- Mr. 16 Downard on behalf of Mr. Harris thought he would be an hour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It, I don't know if Mr. 19 Downard would like to start or wait because he won't be done 20 either. Mr. Beaubien indicated -- Mr. Sulman on behalf of 21 Mr. Beaubien indicated twenty (20) minutes and perhaps we 22 could do Mr. Beaubien -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps we could 24 do that. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and then the
1011 Municipality of Lambton Shores. And it might be that in 2 fairness to Mr. Sulman that if as a -- well at any rate 3 there's Mr. Beaubien -- Mr. Sulman on behalf of Mr. Bobian 4 was twenty (2) minutes, Municipality of Lambton Shores was 5 five (5) minutes and the Chief Coroner was about fifteen (15) 6 minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps we could 8 do something. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We could do if -- it would 10 be best if we could do something. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's -- let's 12 ask. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Sulman didn't think he 14 was going to be reached and he's now left. So -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It leaves that 16 out. Mr. Beaubien? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's for Mr. Beaubien. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's for Mr. 19 -- for Mr. Beaubien. And what about -- 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The chief coroner and 21 Lambton Shores. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Chief Coroner? 23 MR. AL O'MARRA: Well actually I should be 24 about fifteen (15) minutes in questions. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. Well we have
1021 one volunteer. The -- the chief coroner and Mr. Orkin said 2 he'll go again, but we're not going to do that. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 4 pass on that for now. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So perhaps we could do the 6 chief corner and then see where we're at, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 Thank you very much, Mr. O'Marra. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA. 11 Q: These questions may have been covered off 12 by others but it will be the opportunity for the chief 13 coroner to ask them now. Mr. George, I'm Al O'Marra for the 14 record, counsel to the chief coroner. And we're principally 15 interested in assisting the Commission with respect to 16 emergency and medical evidence relating to the events of 17 September 6th of 1995. 18 There are two (2) areas that I wanted to 19 question -- question you about. And the first is your 20 observations about the condition of Mr. Dudley George on 21 September 6th when you saw that he had been shot. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And let me say at the outset, I -- I 24 apologize for delving into these particular areas and 25 observations. I understand how difficult they would be for
1031 you. 2 The second area relates to the activities on 3 the following day concerning your attendance to the Ministry 4 of Natural Resources parking lot on East Parkway Drive. 5 Now, as I understand your evidence, Mr. 6 George, it's after the gunfire had ceased that you observed 7 Dudley lying on the area that you marked in the sandy parking 8 lot. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And before you had seen him lying there, 11 had you many -- made any other observations during the -- the 12 -- the period that gunfire was -- was -- was occurring? 13 A: I made sure and took a long look around. 14 I -- I looked at those cops and I seen they were all firing. 15 I -- I just scanned around kind of slow because, you know, I 16 thought they were firing warning shots and then I seen they 17 were pointing right at us. 18 And -- and I looked back to see if anybody was 19 shot, like that -- just checking it out -- and I seen some 20 people duck and some people might have been laying on the 21 ground; some people were walking backwards and the whole time 22 the -- the ground looked like it was raining. The bullets 23 were hitting off the ground and hitting off the road in front 24 of me. 25 Q: As you -- as you look back -- and I take
1041 it you were still in your position on East Parkway Drive, 2 where you'd marked -- and I can't recall the number, but it 3 was -- was -- 4 A: It was number 10. 5 Q: -- number 10. So as you look back sort of 6 in an easterly direction into the sandy parking lot, did you 7 -- when you made that scan -- see -- see Dudley George? 8 A: No, I couldn't see him. I couldn't -- I 9 couldn't see him laying on the ground. 10 Q: Okay. So, when you first saw him laying 11 on the ground, just where were you? 12 A: I was pretty much beside him. 13 Q: So, you had moved back into the sandy 14 parking lot area? 15 A: Yes. I only seen him out of the corner of 16 my eye. I seen somebody laying on the ground there when I 17 was coming back because I was trying to look around and the 18 corner of my eye caught him laying on the ground. And I 19 looked down at him and I seen Dudley and he wasn't moving so 20 right away I jumped right at him and a bunch of other people 21 jumped right at him all at the same time. 22 Q: Were -- that was good -- were you the 23 first person to -- to Dudley? 24 A: I -- no, it seemed like everybody got to 25 him at the same time.
1051 Q: And was your -- did you -- did you pick 2 him up at that point? 3 A: Yes, we picked him up right away. We -- 4 we seen the blood on his chest and right away I knew he was 5 hurt -- 6 Q: Now -- 7 A: -- and everybody else picked -- it was 8 like everybody just grabbed an arm, grabbed a leg and picked 9 him up. He was real heavy. It seemed like -- 10 Q: Now as I understand it we will hear 11 evidence with respect to the injuries that Dudley George 12 suffered and they were in the area of the upper left chest 13 area? 14 A: Yeah, right around there, kind of -- a 15 little bit higher up. 16 Q: You're pointing just below your clavicle? 17 A: Yeah. Right about there. 18 Q: All right, but it was the upper left chest 19 -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- that you saw the blood? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And can you tell us -- what were 24 your observations of Dudley once you'd put him down in -- in 25 the Park?
1061 A: Once he got put down? 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: I looked at his eyes and he was looking 4 straight ahead. He was laying on his back and he was just 5 looking straight up; his eyes weren't moving. He wasn't 6 shaking. 7 Q: He was not shaking? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. He was just still; just laying 10 there and he was kind of glazed over, kind of -- he looked 11 kind of grey, a little bit sweaty -- a little bit -- 12 Q: Sweaty? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: You looked at -- you spoke to him? 15 A: Yeah, I tried to tell him -- I tried to 16 talk to him. I said, Dudley, don't go to sleep. You got to 17 stay awake. I said it to him a couple of times to make sure 18 he heard me, but it didn't look like he heard nothing. 19 Q: Okay. Did he -- did he move at all? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Just from what we were moving him. 23 Q: Okay. He was limp the entire time? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Was there -- you indicated in your
1071 Evidence-in-chief that you knew he was still alive. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And -- and can you tell how is it that you 4 -- that you knew that at that time? 5 A: Because he was still breathing a little 6 bit. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: He -- might have been -- he might have 9 moved his head a little bit sideways, like that. He wasn't 10 shaking or nothing, just -- he might have been moving his 11 head, but he was looking -- and he was still breathing. 12 Q: And he was then lifted by you and others 13 and put into the "OPP WHO" car? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Just -- I think there was -- Robert Isaac 16 was driving and I think me and my Uncle Elwood and maybe 17 Stewart helped him in. 18 Q: And, again, was Dudley George limp? 19 A: Yes, he was limp. 20 Q: Now, I anticipate that there may be 21 evidence that would indicate that after Dudley George was -- 22 was shot, that -- that he was helped to the side of the road 23 and was seen to walk on his own. At any time -- 24 A: I never seen him walking after -- after I 25 seen him laying on the ground, I never seen him up walking.
1081 I was just coming back and that's when I noticed him laying 2 on the ground. And right at that second I just kind of took 3 a quick step over to him. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And everybody else got to him at the same 6 time. 7 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. Those are my 8 questions around your observations of Dudley George. The 9 other area that I mentioned earlier was with respect to the 10 St. John Ambulance vehicle -- or vehicles at the MNR lot. 11 When Cecil Bernard George came to where you 12 were at the Park on the evening of September 6th, he spoke of 13 the massing of -- of the police down the road. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Did he make any -- any reference 16 to an ambulance or ambulances being in that area? 17 A: No. He never mentioned nothing about 18 ambulances. 19 Q: Okay. So your first awareness of this 20 vehicle was the next day when you walked with the group of 21 people who had joined you at the Park? 22 A: Yes, in the Park area. 23 Q: Okay. And you described your actions 24 with respect to -- to those vehicles. Can -- or that 25 particular vehicle. Can -- can you just elaborate? What was
1091 -- what was your thought, your motivation in terms of your 2 actions in -- in kicking and hitting that vehicle? 3 A: I was mad. I was mad at what they done. 4 And -- 5 Q: You're speaking of the -- of the police? 6 A: Yes. I was mad that they killed Dudley. 7 I was mad that they came down there and done what -- what 8 they done. I was pissed off, there. I wanted -- I wanted to 9 damage that van. 10 Q: Now, you indicated that you did look in, 11 you didn't go in but you looked in? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And that you saw a lot of what appeared 14 to be communication equipment? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Did you subsequently learn that -- that 17 that vehicle was used for communications during the police 18 operations? 19 A: No, I never heard nothing about that. 20 Q: You never heard, okay. So you never 21 heard that afterwards? 22 A: No. It had that big box that was in it, 23 it was covered with a bunch of knobs and stuff, and -- 24 Q: Right. 25 A: -- weird looking stuff. And it had a
1101 phone right on the top of it. 2 MR. AL O'MARRA: Okay. All right. Thank 3 you. Thank you, Mr. George. Those are my questions. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 5 much. I suppose that's about as far as we can go. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, it's 11:30. Unless 7 -- I understand the -- the difficulty posed by our -- the 8 decision -- the decision -- the right decision to adjourn at 9 -- early today, and I appreciate the concerns of My Friends 10 here who are not going to get started. So, unfortunately -- 11 because they won't get finished. 12 We may not be able to do this -- I don't think 13 we can do this always but given that it's a week end, the 14 problem that Ms. Tuck-Jackson, has with Mr. Sandler, going to 15 be here when -- the next time, that it seems appropriate to 16 adjourn at -- now. We were going to adjourn at -- at noon 17 anyways. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know we're all 19 anxious to keep the ball going but these things sometimes 20 happen. So I think this would be time we adjourn. And we 21 reconvene -- 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It'll be -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- November the 24 1st. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- November the 1st, at
1111 10:30. But I might just simply alert My Friends we may be 2 talking to them about adding time in order to -- because we 3 are very concerned about the time, but we'll be back on 4 November 1st at 10:30. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 6 much. Thank you everybody. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mr. George. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: See you on 9 November 1st. 10 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 12 adjourned until Monday, November the 1st at 10:30 a.m. 13 14 --- Upon adjourning at 11:35 a.m. 15 16 Certified Correct 17 18 19 20 21 ________________________ 22 Dustin Warnock 23 Court Reporter 24 25