11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 October 20th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-66 CD-ROM with three (3) files 71 4 P-67 A copy of Exhibit P-63, marked 5 by Abraham David George 85 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 ABRAHAM DAVID ALVIN GEORGE, Resumed 5 Continued Examination-in-Chief 6 by Mr. Derry Millar 7 7 8 Certificate of Transcript 180 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:05 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is now in 4 session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden presiding. Please 5 be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, 9 everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin we just 11 wanted to make a small announcement. For those of us who 12 wear glasses this is our -- a nightmare. One (1) of our 13 number, Melissa Panjeres (phonetic) has lost a lens out of 14 her glass, so -- out of her glasses -- it popped out and so 15 if anyone sees a small lens on the ground it belongs to 16 Melissa. 17 18 ABRAHAM DAVID ALVIN GEORGE; Resumed 19 20 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 22 A: Good morning. 23 Q: Yesterday we were talking about September 24 5th when we ended the day and I wanted to ask you briefly 25 again about when Mr. Kobayashi and Mr. George came up to the
81 Park fence from the sandy parking lot, either -- I think you 2 said yesterday it was either the -- it was on the evening of 3 September 4th? 4 A: No, I believe it was the fifth. 5 Q: The fifth? In the morning? 6 A: Sometime in the morning. 7 Q: And did Mr. Kobayashi and Mr. Vince 8 George come on to the Provincial Park lands when they came up 9 to the fence? 10 A: Yeah, they -- they came right in, 11 probably about ten (10) feet. 12 Q: And you were parked in the parking lot I 13 think we marked as -- on Exhibit 61 -- as Area 3, close to 14 the fence between the Provincial Park and the access road? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And when -- after they attempted to speak 17 to you, the -- did you see them try to speak to anyone else? 18 A: No, they just took off. 19 Q: Okay. And on September 5th, can you tell 20 me, did you have any guns with you in the Park? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And did you -- why not? 23 A: Because that's not the way we done 24 things. Everything we done was peaceful right from the 25 beginning. Nobody had any guns at any time except for what
91 they were using for hunting other times down in the Park. 2 Q: And, I take it from what you're saying 3 that on September 4th, September 5th, and September 6th, you 4 didn't have any guns in the Park? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And did you see anyone else with any guns 7 in the Park? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Among your group? 10 A: No, just the cops. 11 Q: And on September 4th in the evening and - 12 - you told us about the incident with Mr. Wesley George at -- 13 with the black caps, I think you called them. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Did -- were there any other -- did anyone 16 else have firecrackers on -- at the Provincial Park on 17 September 4th to your recollection? 18 A: I think there was a couple of kids 19 running around with small firecrackers. 20 Q: And what about on September 5th? 21 A: I -- I don't remember any then. I don't 22 -- I never heard nothing on the fifth -- firecrackers. 23 Q: And -- and the evening September 5th? 24 Did you hear any firecrackers? 25 A: No.
101 Q: And overnight on September 5th? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And did you hear any gunfire on September 4 5th? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And overnight on September 5th? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And on September 5th, the -- you told us 9 about the police boat and the helicopter and the incident 10 with the police officer and the mace. Can you tell me, prior 11 to the picnic table incident, were -- were there police in 12 and around the sandy parking lot? 13 A: Yeah, they were on the highway. They 14 were -- like -- the -- the road -- right on the corner. 15 There's -- there's always at least two (2) cop cars there and 16 every now and then another car would pull up and take off. 17 Q: And -- and that was at the intersection 18 of East -- the curve in the road at East Parkway Drive and 19 Army Camp -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- Army Camp Road? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the -- what was the atmosphere in the 24 Park on September 5th? 25 A: It was -- it was good. Even though there
111 was cops there, you know, everybody was just going about 2 their business. 3 Q: And on September 5th were there women and 4 children in the Park as well? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what were they doing? The children? 7 A: They were just playing around. 8 Q: And was -- did you see any alcohol on 9 September 5th in the Park? 10 A: No. 11 Q: But did you observe anyone at any time on 12 September 5th who appeared to be under the influence of 13 alcohol? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And the -- did you see anyone that was -- 16 might be described as tipsy? 17 A: I thought maybe my uncle Worm (phonetic) 18 might have been tipsy, but, you know, I can't say for sure. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: It's just the way he looks, I guess. 21 Q: And that -- your uncle Worm is Stewart 22 George? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then -- when did -- we've heard that 25 the picnic tables were put outside the park on the parking --
121 sandy parking lot or access road to the beach, can you tell 2 us -- where you there when those picnic tables were put out 3 on September 5th? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And how many picnic tables were put out 6 on September 5th, to your recollection? 7 A: Probably about maybe -- maybe about ten 8 (10). 9 Q: And why were the picnic tables put out on 10 the sandy parking lot? 11 A: Because we had a campfire there and, 12 well, that -- that whole there is a piece of our land too. 13 The -- the line goes right straight down to the beach. That 14 road was never there. 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: That road was never there in the old 17 days. 18 Q: When you say, It was never there in the 19 old days, how do you know that? 20 A: My grandpa used to tell me, you know, we 21 used to run through there. My grandpa would drive around. 22 He'd tell me about areas and stuff and he'd tell me what was 23 -- where the roads were and stuff. It might have been a 24 small road, like a pathway or something, at -- at one (1) 25 time.
131 Q: And, so, you -- can you help me understand 2 again why, on September 5th, you decided to move the picnic 3 tables out there? 4 A: Probably to stop people from coming close, 5 like maybe, who would want to do us harm and shut the area 6 down. 7 Q: And -- the area in the sandy parking lot? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And do you recall when the picnic tables 10 were put out on September 5th? 11 A: The first time was probably just before 12 it was getting dark, like, the sun was just almost down, 13 probably -- I can't really say what time it was -- probably 14 maybe around 5:00 or so, but the sun was setting anyways. 15 Q: And when the picnic tables were put out 16 in the sandy parking lot what then happened with the picnic 17 tables before the arrival of the OPP? 18 A: We just had a fire. We were sitting 19 around talking. I think somebody was roasting marshmallows 20 or something. 21 Q: And how many people were there? 22 A: There's probably about ten (10) or 23 fifteen (15), give or take a few. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: People would come up and go -- come and
141 leave. 2 Q: Were there women and children as well as 3 men? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And young people? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And when did the Ontario Provincial Police 8 come to deal with the picnic tables? How long had you been 9 there? 10 A: Probably -- maybe about forty (40) 11 minutes. 12 Q: And what happened? Did someone come and 13 speak to you? 14 A: No, I don't remember anybody coming out to 15 speak to us. They just come in there with their cars -- it's 16 like, probably about four (4) cars and they just pulled up to 17 us on the -- pulled up close to the -- where we were sitting 18 on the picnic tables and they -- they kind of stopped and I 19 didn't think they were going to ram us, but you know, they 20 just proceeded and people were getting pushed by the cars and 21 picnic tables were getting pushed. 22 Q: And when -- were the picnic tables being 23 pushed in what direction? Towards the Park? Towards the 24 lake? Towards the cottages on the west side? 25 A: It was getting pushed towards the lake and
151 kind of at the Park at the same time, it was on a diagonal. 2 Q: So the police were on -- the police cars 3 were on -- on the diagonal pushing the -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And how fast were the police going -- 6 these police cars? 7 A: Probably no faster than -- probably 8 walking speed. 9 Q: Walking speed? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: So they weren't -- they were moving pretty 12 slowly? 13 A: Yeah, fairly slowly, like you could get 14 out of the way, but there -- there was people standing there, 15 eh, and they just -- they didn't care. They -- they come up 16 to them and they just started pushing the people. There was 17 picnic tables behind the people. 18 Some people were standing there and cop cars 19 come right up to the people and they just kept on going and 20 they were kind of pinned in between the picnic table and the 21 cars and they just kept pushing. That's when we decided to 22 pick the picnic tables up and throw them on top of the cars. 23 Q: And how many -- did you assist in picking 24 up a picnic -- picnic table and putting it on a car? 25 A: Probably about two (2), maybe.
161 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: Two (2). 3 Q: You helped to do two (2)? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And what did you do with the -- where did 6 you place the picnic table? 7 A: We just flipped them up on top of the car 8 because some of the picnic tables, they rode up on the -- the 9 bumpers and stuff, so it was kind of easy to just pick the 10 one (1) end up and flip it over -- roll it on top of the car. 11 Q: On to the front hood? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And then what happened? 14 A: Then they just kept going and some people 15 started throwing rocks. I think I might have threw a few 16 rocks. 17 Q: At the police cruisers? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: They -- they just kept pushing. 21 Q: And were there police officers outside the 22 police cruisers or in -- only inside? 23 A: Just inside. 24 Q: And, so when the rocks were being thrown, 25 they were being thrown at the -- the police cruisers?
171 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then what happened? 3 A: Then they backed off -- they -- they took 4 off. 5 Q: And what happened to the picnic tables on 6 the cruiser hoods? 7 A: They probably rolled off. I think we 8 dragged them back over. 9 Q: And how long did this take -- this 10 incident with the picnic tables? 11 A: The whole incident probably lasted maybe - 12 - maybe fifty (50) seconds. 13 Q: And after the police officers left in the 14 cruisers -- 15 A: Everybody just went about their business 16 again. 17 Q: And, did you -- what -- I think you said 18 you set the picnic tables up again? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And were you there when the picnic tables 21 were set up again? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And did the police officers come back 24 after this incident? 25 A: I was told yeah, by Dudley. Dudley -- I
181 went and talked to Dudley the next morning when I came back. 2 I went home. 3 Q: But that evening on September 5th -- we'll 4 get to the morning of September 6th in a moment, but that 5 evening on September 5th, when you were there, did the police 6 officers return? 7 A: No. No. 8 Q: And the -- did you stay in the Park over 9 night on September 5th? 10 A: No, I -- I went home to get some sleep 11 because I was up for, like, four (4) days or something like 12 that. 13 Q: Pardon me? 14 A: I went home to get some sleep, I was 15 pretty tired. 16 Q: You'd been up -- I didn't hear how long 17 you'd been up? 18 A: I was up probably for about four (4) days. 19 Q: For four (4) days? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And can you tell us approximately what 22 time you left. It's only lawyers who ask these kind of 23 questions -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- nine (9) years later, but can you help
191 us with that, Mr. George? 2 A: What -- what time was it when I left? It 3 was probably just shortly -- like, a couple of hours, maybe, 4 after that. It was probably 10:00 or 11:00, maybe. 5 Q: And did -- before you left, would -- did - 6 - did your group gather around the picnic tables in the sandy 7 parking lot again? 8 A: After I left? 9 Q: No, before you left. After the incident. 10 A: Yeah, they just kind of hung around. 11 Q: And the -- on the morning of September the 12 6th -- actually, before we get -- would -- did -- after the 13 picnic table incident, did you have any other interactions 14 with the Ontario Provincial Police the evening of September 15 5th? 16 A: I don't think so. 17 Q: And, on the evening -- 18 A: Just -- 19 Q: -- on the evening -- pardon me? 20 A: Just aside from seeing them on the road. 21 Q: Okay. And, after the picnic table 22 incident, did the Ontario Provincial Police come back and 23 park on the -- on the road at the intersection of East 24 Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road? 25 A: Yeah.
201 Q: And was there, on the evening of September 2 5th, a -- a checkpoint -- an OPP checkpoint on Army Camp 3 Road? 4 A: Yeah -- 5 Q: Was -- 6 A: -- probably right around Matheson Drive 7 area, right there. 8 Q: And was there another checkpoint on Army 9 Camp Road up by Highway 21? Do you recall? 10 A: I'm not sure about that day, but I know on 11 the 6th there was -- they had checkpoints up the highway. 12 Q: Okay, we'll come back to the 6th, I'm just 13 trying to go day by day and -- and try to see what you can 14 remember, Mr. George, on the 5th. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: Did you -- on the 5th did you go down East 17 Parkway Drive? 18 A: On the 5th? No. 19 Q: And on the 5th, were cars -- did -- were 20 cars being let through the checkpoint at Matheson Drive by 21 the OPP? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And -- so there was a -- were there many 24 cars let through or a few cars? Was it a normal day or an 25 abnormal --?
211 A: Yeah, it was pretty much normal. I 2 remember some people talking about coming through them, how 3 they would get stopped and the cops would look at them -- 4 take a quick look in the car and send them on their way. 5 Q: And these people were part of your group 6 or supporters or -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- other -- 9 A: Yeah, I remember one (1) guy, Russ Jewel, 10 telling me about how got pulled over. 11 Q: And -- at the checkpoint on Matheson 12 Drive? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And on September 5th, were there 15 barricades put up by the Occupiers at the entrances to the 16 Park? And by that I mean -- 17 A: Yes, just dumpsters. 18 Q: Dumpsters? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And why were the dumpsters put up at the 21 entrance to the Park? 22 A: To close off the entrances. 23 Q: And were there dumpsters placed at the 24 main entrance to the Park? If we could look at Exhibit P-61 25 for a moment, and I'll just --
221 Actually, before we do that, I'm going to play 2 a video because I might lose this video, so I might, Mr. 3 George -- this is a video taken on the morning of September 4 6th, 1995, by the Ontario Provincial Police -- I'm -- I'm 5 instructed by the Ontario Provincial Police because they 6 produced it -- at 7:57 in the morning, and I simply want to 7 play this and ask you to take -- I'll ask you a couple of 8 questions after I've finished playing it. 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 And does that accurately reflect the scene 13 when you left the sandy parking lot on the evening of 14 September 5th, after the incident? 15 A: Yeah, it looks about the same. 16 Q: And do you know when the tent was placed 17 in the middle of the circle of tables? 18 A: I don't remember the tent going up. It 19 was -- it wasn't there when -- when I left. I think it was 20 just the picnic tables that were spread out. 21 Q: With the fire in the middle? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And the tent we're looking at -- we've 24 stopped the frame at 7:57 on September the 6th, just for the 25 record.
231 (VIDEO PLAYING) 2 3 And at 7:57 we've stopped it again and there's 4 a gentlemen in -- in the frame; do you recognize -- I 5 appreciate this is from the back but do you recognize that 6 individual? 7 A: I looks like Dudley from behind. 8 9 (VIDEO PLAYING) 10 11 Q: And, again -- yeah, as Mr. Ross points 12 out, and I've just realized that, the frame counter isn't -- 13 it doesn't count. So that it's all 7:57. It may move 14 afterwards but right now it's not. 15 You'll see on the right-hand side of this 16 particular frame, Mr. George, a white car with what appears 17 to be a line down the front of it, do you recognize -- can 18 you -- that type of automobile? 19 A: Yeah. It's a police car. 20 Q: And was that the position that the police 21 cars took when they were parked along the road on September 22 the 5th? 23 A: Yes. They kind of came in like that and 24 they were coming -- going after another and they spread out 25 like that, and they advanced, kind of spread out like that.
241 Q: But what I'm -- thank you for that, but 2 when you said that police cars would park at the intersection 3 of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road, were they parked in 4 a position similar to the -- to this police car that's parked 5 here now? 6 A: Yes. When they come in rammed the picnic 7 tables, yeah, they were parked like that. 8 Q: And but after, simply when they were -- I 9 take it from what you told me there were -- there were some 10 police cruisers at the intersection all day on September 5th? 11 A: Yeah. They weren't parked like that 12 though. They were just parked on the other side of the road, 13 on the curb on the farther side. 14 Q: Oh, I see. We'll -- we'll get to that in 15 a moment. Thank you. 16 17 (VIDEO PLAYING) 18 19 Q: And the car that's driving up, do you 20 recognize that car that just drove up? 21 A: I'm not sure whose car that is. I might 22 recognize the people later on if I see more. 23 Q: Okay. And this video shows on the right 24 hand side, is that the entrance to the Park at this location? 25 A: Yes.
251 Q: And immediately to the left there's a 2 clump of trees and then another space, is that where the 3 turnstile was? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Or it still is today. The entrance, the 6 turnstile entrance is still there? 7 A: Yes. 8 9 (VIDEO PLAYING) 10 11 Q: And this appears to be the Park entrance, 12 is that correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the dumpsters -- that shows the 15 dumpsters that were placed at the Park entrance? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I see some picnic tables behind. And 18 that was at eight o'clock. And at 8:01 this appears to be 19 Matheson Drive, is that correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And there were dumpsters placed at the 22 Matheson Drive? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the gates were closed? 25 A: Yes.
261 Q: And behind the dumpsters, you can't see 2 it on this frame, but it was there -- there were some picnic 3 tables placed? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And how did you get the dumpsters out to 6 the entrances to the Park? 7 A: Just pushed them with our cars. 8 Q: They were empty? 9 A: Yeah. 10 11 (VIDEO PLAYING) 12 13 Q: And do you recognize the individual in 14 the frame? 15 A: It looks like -- it looks like Dudley. 16 Q: And he's wearing a blue top? 17 A: Yeah, a tie dye shirt. 18 Q: And can you place -- can you tell us 19 where this picture is? On the right hand side, is that where 20 the store is? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And so the -- Mr. George is -- Mr. Dudley 23 George is standing on the road that is on the north side of 24 the grassy area near the Park store? 25 A: Yes.
271 (VIDEO PLAYING) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, what I'm 4 going to do is play a couple of more scenes from this video - 5 - from this particular CD ROM and then I would ask that it be 6 marked -- I'll be asking that it be marked as the next 7 exhibit. It would be Exhibit 66. 8 And this particular segment on the DVD -- 9 excuse me, on the CD ROM is labelled Matheson and I've simply 10 used the -- just for everyone's understanding what I've 11 simply done, we've simply copied these scenes from the DVD -- 12 CD ROM, in this case, provided by the -- the Ontario 13 Provincial Police and used the Ontario Provincial Police's 14 designation for these segments and this one was labelled 15 'Matheson'. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: After -- were you present when -- I 19 understand the Ontario Provincial Police returned on the 20 morning of September 6th? 21 A: No, I wasn't there. 22 Q: And when did you come down back to the 23 park? 24 A: It was still morning time. It's probably 25 just shortly after that was taken; probably 9:00 maybe. It
281 was still quite early. 2 Q: And why did you come back to the park at 3 that time? 4 A: Just to be there. 5 Q: And when you got back to the park, were 6 the picnic tables present or not in the sandy parking lot 7 outside the park? 8 A: They were all gone. 9 Q: And did you find out what happened to the 10 picnic tables? 11 A: Yeah. I talked to Dudley and he said the 12 cops come in there and took them all. 13 Q: And you spoke to Mr. Dudley George? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And Mr. George told you that the police 16 officers had come in and taken them away? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did he tell you how many police 19 officers? 20 A: He said about maybe four (4) or five (5) 21 cars came in and they chased him right into the park; he -- 22 he mentioned that to me too. He said they chased him right 23 up to that first hump there, the first row of trees. 24 Q: On the inside of the park? 25 A: Yeah.
291 Q: And tell -- Mr. George is not -- we can't 2 ask Mr. George, so tell me exactly what Mr. George told you. 3 A: I just went down there, I asked him, What 4 happened? Where's the picnic tables? And he said, The cops 5 came and dragged them away. He said they chased him right in 6 -- right into the park. They tried to get him. They chased 7 him right in, right up to the first row of trees. 8 Pretty much like that is how he explained it 9 to me. 10 Q: And was there anyone else overnight at 11 the -- 12 A: Yeah. J.T. (phonetic). 13 Q: J.T. Cousins (phonetic)? 14 A: Yeah. He was there too. 15 Q: And J.T. Cousins at the time was about 16 fourteen (14) years old? 17 A: Yeah, about fourteen (14), pretty young. 18 Q: And did you speak to J.T. Cousins? 19 A: Yeah. He said the same thing. 20 Q: Okay. And did others come down to the 21 park or were others asked to come down to the park at this 22 time? 23 A: No. Everybody just showed up -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- when everybody got around to it.
301 (VIDEO PLAYING) 2 3 Q: And again, Commissioner, this is a -- a 4 segment of a video provided by the Ontario Provincial Police. 5 It's labelled "Scene", and it appears to have been taken at 6 10:04 on September 6th. 7 Mr. George, can you help us and identify any 8 of the people that are in this clip? And what I might do is 9 play it through and then go back, and then we can stop as we 10 go along. 11 A: I can tell this guy here is Dudley. 12 Q: The person in the blue, it looks like a 13 T-shirt, is Mr. Dudley George? 14 A: Yeah. It looks like him. 15 Q: And is this -- can you tell me where this 16 -- where the individuals that we see in the frame are 17 located? Are they on the -- which side of the park boundary 18 are they on? 19 A: They're on the East side of the park 20 boundary. 21 Q: On the inside of the park? 22 A: Yeah. Inside of the Park. 23 Q: And on the foreground in this video is 24 the sandy parking lot? 25 A: Yes.
311 2 (VIDEO PLAYING) 3 4 Q: And again we see on the left hand side of 5 this frame which is, I can't tell the time, but it's, I think 6 10:09, it shows the turn-style entrance into the -- into the 7 Park? 8 A: Yes, right here. 9 Q: Thank you. 10 A: That's my car. 11 Q: And, excuse me, it said, I said 10:09 12 before, it has to be earlier than that, because it's 10:04 13 here. 14 A: 10:04. 15 Q: The -- the car that's in this frame at 16 10:04, is your car? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that was an unlicensed car? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: At this time did you have a licensed car 21 that you could take out on the highway? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And the -- can you tell me, is that the 24 entrance to the Park at this location? 25 A: Yes.
321 Q: And there's a gate on the -- is that a 2 gate on the right-hand side? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And it appears to be open? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And do you know why it was open? 7 A: No, I don't know why it's open. 8 Q: And why is the dumpster there? 9 A: To block it off. 10 Q: And who placed the dumpster there? 11 A: I can't remember if I did or -- I think I 12 might have. 13 Q: Okay. And -- 14 A: That's my cousin, looks like my cousin 15 Nicholas. 16 Q: And that would be Mr. Nicholas Coutrille? 17 A: Yeah, it look -- yes. 18 Q: And Nicholas Coutrille was fourteen (14) 19 or fifteen (15) or sixteen (16) at this time? 20 A: Yes, something like that. I think that's 21 me standing right beside him. 22 Q: Pardon me? 23 A: I think that -- that's me standing there. 24 Q: Behind to the right of Mr. -- 25 A: Yeah, yes.
331 Q: -- Coutrille. Mr. Coutrille has a -- it 2 looks like he has a red bandana on his head? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And do you recognize anyone else in that 5 particular picture frame? 6 A: No. That looks like my cousin Marlin. 7 Q: There, the person at 10:05? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Your cousin Mr. Marlin Simon? 10 A: Yes. 11 12 (VIDEO PLAYING) 13 14 Q: Actually it -- it looks like this video 15 then rewinds itself, because it's... 16 A: Oh, yeah. 17 Q: Now, Mr. Coutrille, it -- excuse me, Mr. 18 George, the -- on the evening of September 5th after the 19 Ontario Provincial Police moved the picnic tables, pushed 20 them out of the way, did you understand that from their 21 action that they did not want the picnic tables out in the 22 sandy parking lot? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And up to this point on September 5th, 25 other than Mr. George and Mr. Kobayashi coming into -- a few
341 feet into the Park to speak to you or to attempt to speak to 2 you about the notice, the Ontario Provincial Police had not 3 entered into the Park? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And why, after the -- the Ontario 6 Provincial Police attempted to move the picnic tables, did 7 you not simply stay in the Park and not put the picnic tables 8 back out into the sandy parking lot? 9 A: It was just kind of a group decision. 10 That's pretty much it, because that -- that roadway's on our 11 land too. That's the understanding I had. 12 Q: Pardon me? 13 A: That was the understanding I had that 14 that was our land there too. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And so that's why we were there. 17 Q: Isn't it fair to say, however, that as 18 long as you were inside the Park at this time, the Ontario 19 Provincial Police were not coming into the Park? 20 A: Yeah pretty much so, yeah. 21 Q: Now on September 6th we've seen you and 22 others were down along the edge of the Park in the morning of 23 September 6th. Can you tell us, were you able to see the 24 police officer who's taking the video that we just -- did -- 25 could you -- at or about ten o'clock did you see police
351 officers out in either the sandy parking lot or along the 2 road? 3 A: Yeah. I seen them a couple of different 4 times. 5 Q: And during the day on September 6th in 6 the morning let's say, after the picnic table incident, how 7 many police officers, or how many police cruisers were parked 8 at the intersection of East Parkway Drive and the Army Camp 9 Road? 10 A: There was probably about maybe three (3). 11 Off and on there was a couple more, stopped by and take off. 12 Q: So that normally there would be about 13 three (3) police cruisers? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And if I could just have you take a look 16 at the drawing that's behind you. This is a copy of Exhibit 17 23, the intersection as drawn by Mr. Thompson. And can you 18 just simply point out for us on that copy of Exhibit 23, 19 where the police officers parked their cruisers? 20 A: They were -- they were kind of parked on 21 the corner and maybe -- and one (1) would come down the road 22 they would park over here and they would park over here. 23 Q: So -- so they were parking on the west 24 side of Army Camp Road on the side of the road opposite the 25 sandy parking lot and on East Parkway Drive on the south side
361 of the road? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the -- on September 6th did Mr. 4 Dudley George tell you whether he recognized any of the 5 police officers who came to move the picnic tables? 6 A: Yeah. He mentioned that it was the same 7 cop that threatened him the day before. He said he 8 threatened -- he told him again, I think was his words. I 9 think he just pointed him out and he said, You're dead, 10 Dudley. 11 Q: And did he describe this police officer? 12 A: Yeah. He described him as the same 13 officer that threatened him the day before. 14 Q: And during the day on September the 6th, 15 the -- would -- did you observe any guns in the park? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you have any guns? 18 A: No. 19 Q: At anytime on September 6th? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And on September 6th, did you have in 22 your car or on your person a baseball bat or other implement 23 such as a baseball bat? 24 A: I think I had a splitting maul -- 25 Q: A which?
371 A: -- for chopping wood. An axe. 2 Q: And what were you using that for? 3 A: Just chopping wood. 4 Q: Okay. But did you have any -- 5 A: Baseball bats? 6 Q: Yeah? 7 A: Probably. 8 Q: In your -- and where were they? 9 A: They'd probably be on the floor. 10 Q: And if -- do you recall whether you had 11 one or didn't have one? 12 A: I probably had one, yeah. 13 Q: And why did you have a baseball bat? 14 A: I always carried one. 15 Q: Why? 16 A: Just self-protection. 17 Q: And why did you need that for self- 18 protection? 19 A: Because of people in the surrounding 20 areas, they would come and heckle us. And you never know 21 when they're going to come in, you know. We have had trouble 22 with people on the beaches before. They were trying to, you 23 know -- couple of our guys have been jumped on before. 24 Q: By groups of people? 25 A: Yeah, on the beach.
381 Q: And did others have baseball bats or 2 sticks as well, to your knowledge? 3 A: No. I didn't see too many. Like, nobody 4 -- we weren't walking around brandishing them. 5 Q: And we've -- did you notice any -- were 6 any mirrors in the Park on September the 6th? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And were those mirrors in the Park on 9 September the 5th as well? 10 A: I believe so, yes. 11 Q: And who was using the mirrors? 12 A: There was a couple of kids, I believe 13 they were Amanda and Stephanie Coutrille. And I might have 14 been playing around with one (1) too. 15 Q: And can you tell us what size the mirrors 16 were that you saw the -- how old, in 1995, were Amanda and -- 17 A: They were just really young. Probably, 18 I'd say probably maybe seven (7) or eight (8) and maybe nine 19 (9) or ten (10). 20 Q: And what size of mirror did they have? 21 A: Probably, maybe a foot wide by a foot and 22 half (1/2) tall; just standard washroom size mirror. 23 Q: Do you know where they got the mirror 24 from? 25 A: I think they got them from inside the
391 store. 2 Q: Okay. And what were they doing with the 3 mirrors? 4 A: They were just shining them and -- 5 Q: And who were they shining them at? 6 A: At the police. And I believe there was a 7 reporter there, he was getting shined up too. 8 Q: And were there reporters at the 9 intersection of East Park Way Drive and Army Camp Road on 10 September 6th? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And was there -- were there reporters 13 and, I take it, television crews as well, or people with 14 cameras? 15 A: I think there was one (1) guy with a 16 camera. He never had it out too long because I think he was 17 getting shined up. 18 Q: That's on September 6th? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And on September 5th were there reporters 21 at the intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road? 22 A: Yeah, I think there was. There might 23 have been one (1), not all the time though. I think I -- we 24 recognized him from TV. One (1) guy, I don't remember his 25 name, but I think he was there maybe once during the --
401 during the afternoon. 2 Q: Okay. And did you, on September the 6th, 3 did you speak to anyone along the fence line, other than from 4 outside your group? 5 A: No, I didn't speak to no one. 6 Q: And did you see anyone attempt to speak 7 to your group along the fence line between the Park and the 8 sandy parking lot? 9 A: On the 6th? 10 Q: On the 6th? 11 A: I think maybe Les Kobayashi was there 12 once. I think I remember him coming up. 13 Q: Do you remember any police officers? 14 A: That was on the 5th? 15 Q: On the 6th. 16 A: On the 6th. There was police standing 17 around, milling around on the corner there. 18 Q: But did anyone -- did any police officers 19 on the 6th come up and attempt to talk to anyone along the 20 fence line between the sandy parking lot and the Park? 21 A: No, I don't think so. 22 Q: And when you say there were police 23 milling around -- police officers milling around at the 24 intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp Road, how many 25 police officers are you talking about?
411 A: There was probably anywhere between four 2 (4) to six (6). 3 Q: And on Exhibit P-23, can you simply point 4 out with your laser -- the copy's behind you of Exhibit P-23 5 where the police officers were standing? 6 A: They'd be standing right around there. 7 Q: And so they were standing on the west 8 side of the paved road right at the corner of East Parkway 9 Drive and Army Camp Road on the south side of East Parkway 10 Drive and the east side of Army Camp Road? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I take it they were standing in and 13 around the area where they had parked their cruisers? 14 A: Yes. I remember seeing some other 15 officers too that were walking around. Like they'd be just 16 walking around. They'd be checking stuff out around here and 17 they were walking down here this way. 18 Q: And when you -- you first pointed out on 19 the north side of East Parkway Drive and from the first 20 driveway on -- the driveway that shows on Exhibit P-23 on the 21 left hand side and then you were also pointing out the area 22 on the east side of Army Camp Road down along the highway? 23 A: Yes. They wouldn't walk in groups. Like 24 there's maybe one. I think they were just checking it out to 25 see if --
421 Q: So one (1) or two (2) police officers 2 would walk around -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- and look at things. 5 A: Yeah. This pile of sand that's on this 6 thing here too, that wasn't there at the time. That was put 7 there afterwards. 8 Q: Yeah. Can you tell -- we appreciate that 9 this drawing was drawn, Mr. George, on September 18th, do you 10 know when that pile of sand that's on Exhibit P-23 was put on 11 the sandy parking lot? 12 A: I don't know exactly what day but I know 13 it was put there afterwards because it wasn't there that 14 night. 15 Q: And the Exhibit P-23 -- on Exhibit P-23 16 there's as well... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: There's noted some -- B-2 and that the 21 legend says those are cement blocks? 22 A: Yeah, two (2). 23 Q: And were they -- those -- were the two 24 (2) cement blocks there on the evening of September 6th? 25 A: No, I don't remember them being there
431 either. 2 Q: And do you recall when they were placed 3 in -- on the sandy parking lot? 4 A: No, I don't recall what day they were put 5 there, but I know they weren't there that night. Yeah, they 6 were put there afterwards. 7 Q: Thank you. Now I would like to -- during 8 the day on September 6th, did you remain in the Park? 9 A: September 6th? Yeah, I believe so. 10 Q: And were you in the Park around noon? Do 11 you recall? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And what were you doing? Generally, what 14 did you do during the early morning and early afternoon time 15 on September 6th? 16 A: I don't remember, just -- just hanging 17 out. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. And I'm going to, 19 Commissioner, show another video if the lights could go down 20 again. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is also 22 from the OPP productions? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, Commissioner. This 24 is, again, from the Ontario Provincial Police and it's 25 labelled on the CD-ROM as, "Park."
441 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And it starts at 11:16 4 according to the counter on September the 6th. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And do you recognize this particular 8 scene, Mr. George? 9 A: Yes. This is Army Camp Road. 10 Q: On the left-hand side, the road that is - 11 - that road runs north towards the lake? 12 A: Yes. That would be the lake down here. 13 Q: The lake at the top of the -- the frame? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that's Army Camp Road and on the 16 right-hand side -- 17 A: This is our -- our road that runs 18 adjacent to Army Camp. 19 Q: And that's a road that's inside the army 20 camp? 21 A: Yes, and this would be Matheson Drive 22 right over here. 23 Q: And Matheson Drive is at -- you can see 24 the intersection, it's towards the top of the frame at 11:16? 25 A: Yes.
451 Q: And that -- Matheson Drive is -- we've 2 looked at this before -- Matheson Drive runs east and then 3 north to the -- the beach. Is that not correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 6 (VIDEO PLAYING) 7 8 Q: And this frame, again, it shows 11:16 -- 9 it shows the intersection of Army Camp Road and Matheson 10 Drive. Is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the dumpster is blocking the 13 entrance? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Today that road is completely overgrown, 16 is it not -- Matheson Drive? 17 A: Pretty much, yeah. Yeah, it's overgrown. 18 Q: And it's not used by anyone? 19 A: No. I think maybe people ride their 20 bikes down there. There's a bike path going over there. 21 Q: There's a bike path, but it's not used 22 for motor vehicles? 23 A: No. 24 25 (VIDEO PLAYING)
461 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm not quick enough to 2 stop it exactly where I want it, Commissioner, it's... 3 4 (VIDEO PLAYING) 5 6 Q: And in the frame now at 11:17, although 7 it's unfortunately not very clear, is the corner where East 8 Army Camp Drive turns into East Parkway -- Army Camp Road 9 turns into East Parkway; is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And on the top right hand side of the 12 frame is the entrance to what we've been referring to as the 13 Sandy Parking Lot? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the cars... 16 17 (VIDEO PLAYING) 18 19 Q: You'll see some cars, unfortunately you 20 can't, it's blurry again every time you stop it but -- there, 21 you can see some cars right at the corner and there's a white 22 car. Is that the area that the Police Officers were parking 23 their cruisers? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, Commissioner, there is a, I think on
471 this one, an audio, but all it is is the helicopter, you 2 can't really hear any voices, and because of the problems 3 that it causes the system, we haven't got the audio on. 4 5 (VIDEO PLAYING) 6 7 Q: I'm just going to let it play through, 8 Commissioner. 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 Q: And, in this frame, which is at 11:18, 13 there, can you tell us do you recognize this location? 14 A: Yeah, that would be out beside the store 15 there. 16 Q: And on this -- on this particular frame, 17 the store is to the right of the scene? 18 A: Yeah, it would be over this way. 19 Q: Is that correct, Mr. George? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And, so this grassy area is on the east 22 side of the Park store? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And on the -- at the top of the frame you 25 will see a roadway; do you see that roadway at the top?
481 A: Yes. 2 Q: And, is that the roadway that led into 3 the basement of the Park store? 4 A: I think it's that, there -- there's a 5 pathway that goes to the back of the store, that's what I 6 think that is. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Right through -- 9 Q: And you had picnic tables in this area? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And is this the area where you told us on 12 -- I think that September 4th you had built a fire? 13 A: Yes. I think that's it right there. 14 Q: And the blue tarpaulins that are on the - 15 - it would appear something blue that are on the ground -- do 16 you remember what -- there's one (1) where the cursor is and 17 one (1) on the left-hand side that's out of this frame. What 18 were those? 19 A: I think they were just -- one (1) was a 20 tarp and I think the other one was a tent or something. 21 22 (VIDEO PLAYING) 23 24 Q: And is this a view of the Park? 25 A: Yeah, it looks like it. I think the --
491 the store would be over this way somewhere. 2 Q: So, it would be in the middle and on the 3 right-hand side? 4 A: Yeah, it's the sandy area over here. 5 Q: There -- 6 A: Army Camp Road. 7 Q: The sandy -- 8 A: East Parkway. 9 Q: -- sandy parking lot would be on the 10 right-hand side of the photograph? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And on the inside -- on -- immediately to 13 the left on the -- of that area, which is on the top right- 14 hand side, it's -- you can just see it, Commissioner, is very 15 to describe because it's -- particularly with this -- it's a 16 little blurry. And then there's a tree line beside the -- 17 what appears -- the sandy parking lot and then another sandy 18 parking lot and that's on the inside of the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then another tree line? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then another sandy parking lot. Is 23 that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And -- okay.
501 (VIDEO PLAYING) 2 3 Q: And again, you can see in this frame at 4 11:20, the Park store, the area that you were congregated in. 5 Is that correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 8 (VIDEO PLAYING) 9 10 Q: And on this frame, which is 11:21, you see 11 the Park store, the roadway appears to be leading down on the 12 south side of the Park store. Immediately on the top left- 13 hand side of this frame is the firewood -- where the firewood 14 was kept? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the entrance to the -- the Park is 17 shown in the upper right-hand side? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you can see the dumpster that's in the 20 frame? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (VIDEO PLAYING) 24 25 Q: Now, in this shot the -- if I could just
511 take you to P-61 for a moment, that's in front of you. P-61 2 is the sketch of the campground. And the road we see in this 3 frame at 11:22, with the two (2) cars in the middle, is the 4 road that leads from -- this, we're looking at it -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- proceeding south from the bridge area 7 in the Park towards the maintenance building that appears on 8 the upper left-hand side; is that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And this particular road is now unused; 11 is that correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it's overgrown? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And why was this road left unused and 16 permitted to become overgrown? 17 A: Because there's graves that were found 18 there. 19 Q: And where were the graves found, Mr. 20 George, in relation to the road? 21 A: I think they were -- there's some over 22 here. There's a creek that runs over here. I think there 23 was a couple found around up here. I think we had a medicine 24 man too that said there was some right underneath the road 25 there.
521 Q: And -- 2 A: Near the road here too. 3 Q: And so, as well, you're pointing to the 4 area above the 11:22 on the -- looking at this frame, it's 5 the left-hand side of this frame but it's on the east side of 6 this road? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the road that we're looking at is the 9 road that, if you look at P-61, is the line to the left of 10 the "Trailer Sanitory Station" notation on Exhibit P-61; is 11 that correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then you can see at the bottom of 14 this plan, the -- it says "Maintenance", and that's where the 15 maintenance building is? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Perhaps it would be helpful, Mr. George, 18 if you mark on the copy of P-61 in front of you, where you 19 indicated there were burial graves on this -- in this area, 20 please. And I think it would be number 4, if you could use 21 number 4. 22 A: They're kind of all over the place 23 though, hey? Like, I'd have to put fours all over this 24 thing. 25 Q: Well, perhaps if you could simply put
531 some forms -- fours in the areas, and then we will be able to 2 know what you were pointing to when we were looking at this 3 video. 4 And I understand what you're saying, that it's 5 simply a representation of some of the graves? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Have you done that? 8 A: Yes. 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 Q: And the building in the upper right-hand 13 corner that you're pointing to with the laser, it's in the 14 upper right-hand corner of this frame, is -- with the white 15 roof, is the maintenance building? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the maintenance building was brown 18 with a white roof -- or a light roof? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Do you recognize these two (2) cars that 21 are in this frame at 11:22? 22 A: That looks like Katherine (phonetic) 23 George's car. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: And I'm not sure about that one.
541 Q: Katherine George's car is the car on the 2 right hand side of the two (2) cars towards the upper part of 3 the frame and it appears to be red? 4 A: Yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Now this is a scene -- a shot of Matheson 9 Drive looking west along Matheson Drive towards Army Camp 10 Road? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that's at 11:23? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the truck that we saw in the frame 15 just a moment ago -- just check the counter, you saw it go 16 out from the maintenance area turn right on Matheson Drive, 17 that would be west on Matheson Drive and I take it there was 18 an entrance then off Matheson Drive into the army camp? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And did Matheson Drive -- I understand 21 Matheson Drive runs between the Park on the north side and 22 the army camp on the south side? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And we're now looking at Matheson Drive 25 at 11:24 and going east on Matheson Drive, is that correct?
551 Is that correct, is that fair? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I see there's what appears to be tree 4 on the bottom of the frame by the counter 11:24, were the 5 trees chopped down along Matheson Drive? 6 A: Yeah I remember a couple of them. Seen a 7 couple. 8 Q: And do you know why that was done? Did 9 you do that? 10 A: No, I didn't. I never did that. I don't 11 know who did that. I remember them being there. 12 Q: But you don't know who did it? 13 A: No. 14 Q: We see at this spot, there's a road on 15 the right-hand side of the picture at the top right-hand 16 corner of the frame and that is a road inside the army camp? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the boundary's in that clump of trees 19 between the two (2) roads? 20 A: Yeah. There's a fence that runs right 21 down the street, down the middle over here. 22 Q: Down the middle? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Between the two (2) roads? 25 A: Yes.
561 2 (VIDEO PLAYING) 3 4 Q: And at this spot, the road appears to -- 5 Matheson Drive appears to turn north towards the lake, is 6 that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And on the upper part of this frame, 9 there's another road that's the only road you can really see, 10 and I take it that road was inside the army camp? 11 A: Yes, there's a fence that comes right 12 down the middle between the two (2) roads. 13 Q: Between the two (2) roads? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And was there a fence between Matheson 16 Drive and the Park? 17 A: Yes, inside. 18 Q: And it ran the perimeter of the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 Q: Now, you told us about the -- the trailer 24 on September 4th that you saw inside the Park. Can you -- 25 A: The -- yes?
571 Q: -- ascertain the -- can you see where the 2 entrance to the Park was on -- along the east side of the 3 Park here? It's not very clear, Mr. George, but can you -- 4 A: I think that's the entrance right there. 5 Q: That's the entrance to the Park? You're 6 sort of in the middle of the frame at 11:25 and the -- 7 A: I think that's the entrance. 8 Q: -- at the top of the -- of the frame at 9 the right-hand side you can see part of the lake and the 10 beach in front of -- I take it that's in front of the army 11 camp? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And the -- can you point out with your 14 laser where the trailer was that you told us about on -- 15 A: It's just up around in this area 16 somewhere. 17 Q: Okay. And you're pointing to the middle 18 of the frame up to the left of the road that leads to 19 Matheson Drive, that leads to the lake? 20 A: Yes. 21 22 (VIDEO PLAYING) 23 24 Q: And do you recognize this scene? 25 A: Yeah, it looks like our arbour on the
581 beach, right near the pass, right -- pretty much in the 2 middle. 3 Q: Now, that's in the middle of the -- of 4 the army camp beach? 5 A: Yes. Yeah, there's the pass right there. 6 Q: And that -- you've pointed out on the 7 left side at 11:28, the pass. And why is that called, "The 8 pass?". 9 A: Probably because everybody can pass 10 through -- 11 Q: The -- 12 A: -- that's the only place to pass through. 13 Q: It's the only way to get from the army 14 camp to the -- beach at -- along this part of the -- part of 15 the army camp? 16 A: Yeah. Unless you've got a four (4) by 17 four (4), you can go through anywhere. 18 Q: Unless you had a four (4) by four (4)? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And by four (4) by four (4), you mean a 21 four (4) wheel drive vehicle? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And we see in this frame at 11:29 what 24 appears to be barriers on the right-hand side of the frame to 25 the right of September 6th, 1995 and on the left-hand side of
591 the frame, some more barriers. Do you see that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And do you know -- were these -- can you 4 recall what these barriers were made of? 5 A: Cement. 6 Q: And that -- those are barriers between 7 the -- what we see now is the -- the exit from Matheson Drive 8 down onto the beach. Is that correct? 9 A: Yeah, it looks like it. 10 Q: And on the left-hand side the barriers 11 are showing the -- it's the -- the -- the border between the 12 Park beach and Matheson Drive? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And on the right-hand side they're -- can 15 you tell us what the barriers are made of on the right-hand 16 side? 17 A: There's a couple of cement blocks, 18 there's probably some pieces of poles. 19 Q: And there appears to be an entrance that 20 vehicles appear to have been using on the army camp side? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I take it that is on the army camp 23 side, those white blocks are the boundary of the army camp? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I take it that these blocks were
601 there well before September 4th? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And on the right hand side of the -- of 4 the frame, that's Lake Huron? 5 A: Yes. 6 7 (VIDEO PLAYING) 8 9 Q: What we're now looking at is inside the 10 Park? 11 A: Yes. 12 13 (VIDEO PLAYING) 14 15 Q: It looks like we're now going back south 16 on Matheson Drive at 11:30 and the helicopter's turning west 17 and you can see in this frame both Matheson Drive on the 18 right and the road inside the army camp on the left? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Matheson Drive would be north, the road 21 inside the army camp would be south? 22 A: Yes. 23 24 (VIDEO PLAYING) 25
611 Q: And you'll see on the right hand side of 2 the frame at 11:31, dust and dust appear to be blowing up, do 3 you see that? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And did you observe that phenomena other 6 times, dust being blown? 7 A: Yeah, it gets blown through there all the 8 time because the wind whips around in there, and you see 9 little dust devils. 10 Q: But this dust, did it come from the wind 11 or from the helicopter, or do you know? 12 A: I'm not sure I wasn't there. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Probably from the helicopter. Yeah, it 15 looks like it's from the helicopter. 16 17 18 (VIDEO PLAYING) 19 20 Q: So at 11:32 we see in the centre of this 21 picture, the pump house and the reservoir building, is that 22 correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: The pump house is on the left side of the 25 frame?
621 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the reservoir is on the right hand 3 side, the white building on the right hand side? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the intersection that we see at 6 11:32, the -- it's the end of the road from the -- running 7 north from the maintenance building -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- and on the left hand side when you -- 10 the road then turns west and goes across the bridge, across 11 the creek towards the Park store? 12 A: Yes. 13 14 (VIDEO PLAYING) 15 16 Q: Do you recognize -- you can just see the 17 black roof, Mr. George, at 11:32, but from that brief 18 picture, do you recognize that particular building? 19 A: I can't really see. That right there? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: I'm not sure. 22 Q: Okay. We're back at 11:32, the scene at 23 the park store. 24 A: Yes. That's the kiosk there. 25 Q: Yes. I'll just go back.
631 (VIDEO PLAYING) 2 3 Q: And that's what you described as the 4 kiosk? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that's the entrance to the park? 7 A: Yes. The entrance goes down here. 8 Q: So that the -- on Exhibit P-61, the -- 9 you drew the number 2 at the area where the -- the entrance 10 was, and I think you described it as the kiosk. The kiosk is 11 actually at the end of those two (2) roads; is that correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that's where people -- it's described 14 on in this, on P-61, as the permit office, although it's on 15 the wrong side of the road? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Perhaps you could mark, again, with item 18 -- with number 5, on P-61, where the permit office or kiosk 19 appears as we can see it in this scene, the right -- on the 20 right-hand side of the -- to the left of the permit office, 21 on the left-hand side of the road? 22 A: Yes. Where I marked it. It thought it 23 was maybe right here, but it's right there. 24 Q: Right there. And you used number 5? 25 A: Yes.
641 Q: Thank you. 2 THE COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 3 much more to go on this -- on this video? Should we wait 4 until you finish it before -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we have a 7 break? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And do you recognize the 14 person who's standing in front of the car? 15 A: It looks like me. 16 Q: And ... 17 18 (VIDEO PLAYING) 19 20 Q: And what are you doing there, Mr. George? 21 A: Throwing rocks. 22 Q: And where did you get the rocks from? 23 A: Just on the ground. 24 Q: And why were you throwing rocks? 25 A: Because the helicopter was flying too low
651 and almost above the treetops -- pretty -- pretty close. 2 Q: And what was the effect of the helicopter 3 flying at the height it was flying? 4 A: Well, it was kicking up dust; throwing 5 stuff around -- plates and that. People were getting upset 6 about it. 7 Q: And can you tell me how far above the -- 8 how high the helicopter was off the ground at this time, if 9 you can recall? 10 A: It was pretty low; just above the trees, 11 anyways, probably fifty (50) feet, maybe. 12 Q: And that's at 11:33? 13 A: Yeah. Yes. 14 Q: Commissioner, we had a technical glitch. 15 I'm just wanting to go back. I'm sorry, sir. 16 17 (VIDEO PLAYING) 18 19 Q: Do you recall what you were doing -- we're 20 stopped at 11:32 -- what your group was doing at this point? 21 A: I think there was some food being eaten 22 over here. 23 Q: And you're pointing with the laser to the 24 area to the left of the car that's -- a grey car that's 25 parked. It's the third car -- the -- there are three (3)
661 cars parked in -- in the -- in the -- on the road to the 2 right-hand side in this picture of the Park store and the 3 area around the Park store and the third car appears to be a 4 grey car. 5 It's the bottom car in the frame and to the 6 left of it, it appears to be a picnic table and people and is 7 that the area where people were eating? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And do you recall who was there? 10 A: I know there was a couple of kids there. 11 There was maybe three (3) or four (4) women; I think Bonnie 12 Bressette was there and a couple of her daughters -- Gail 13 Bressette, Barb. I think my brother was there, too. 14 Q: Your brother, Clayton? 15 A: Yes. I can't remember anybody else that 16 was there. 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (VIDEO PLAYING) 20 21 Q: Do you recognize any of these people that 22 are moving towards the red car at 11:33? 23 A: No, I don't recognize them. 24 Q: Pretty hard to see. 25 A: Yeah. I think that's my brother's car
671 there. 2 Q: Your brother's car? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: One (1) of the cars in the frame? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: The middle car? 7 A: Yeah. It's the middle car. 8 Q: That was your brother Clayton? 9 A: Yes. 10 11 (VIDEO PLAYING) 12 13 Q: Do you recognize where this is, Mr. 14 George at 11:34? 15 A: That looks like it's in the sandy parking 16 lot right in front of the store. 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (VIDEO PLAYING) 20 21 A: That's my brother's car. 22 Q: Pardon me? 23 A: That's my brother's car. 24 Q: Do you recognize your brother's car among 25 one of these three (3) cars?
681 A: Yeah. I thought this was it but I 2 recognize the -- he had a light blue trunk on the back of 3 his. 4 Q: Okay. So it wasn't that car? 5 A: No. 6 7 (VIDEO PLAYING) 8 9 Q: That's your brother's car? 10 A: Yeah. 11 12 (VIDEO PLAYING) 13 14 Q: And can -- do you recognize this car? 15 The car that's in the middle of the frame? 16 A: Yes. That's the "OPP WHO" car. 17 Q: That's the "OPP WHO" car? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: That's at 11:34. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 Q: Do you recognize anyone in that last 24 group? 25 A: I thought I -- I thought I recognized
691 Dudley's tie dye shirt there. It's all I could see though. 2 Q: Thank you. Perhaps what we'll do is have 3 the morning break. I realize it's quarter to 12:00 and I'll 4 set this up so that it's at the right spot when we begin. 5 CHAIRMAN SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's hope it works 6 when we come back. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very much. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mr. George. 10 REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess for 11 fifteen (15) minutes. 12 13 --- Upon recessing at 11:52 a.m. 14 --- Upon resuming at 12:13 p.m. 15 16 REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now resumed. 17 Please be seated. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Commissioner, 19 we're going to go back to the video for a moment and see if 20 Mr. George can assist us in identifying any of the people in 21 the next frame. 22 23 (VIDEO PLAYING) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
701 Q: Mr. George, I know it's not very clear, 2 but we're at 12:14 on the timer -- at 11:34 on the actual 3 timer of the video. Do you recognize any of the people that 4 are sitting at this -- it looks like two (2) picnic tables? 5 A: It's pretty hard to tell. I'd say this 6 was Dudley, though, with the shirt on. 7 Q: When you say -- I didn't see who you were 8 pointing to, Mr. George. You believe that the person on the 9 left-hand side of the frame -- 10 A: It looks like Dudley's shirt. 11 Q: -- sitting on the top part of the picnic 12 table may be Mr. Dudley George? 13 A: Yes. It's pretty grainy, I -- it's hard 14 to tell. 15 Q: Yeah, I appreciate that. 16 17 (VIDEO PLAYING) 18 19 THE WITNESS: I -- I couldn't identify any of 20 those people. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, we might mark 22 as the -- as collectively as Exhibit 66, this CD-ROM that has 23 on it the three (3) segments that we've played this morning. 24 The first one (1) is -- the file is called, "Matheson" and it 25 shows the picnic tables. Then there's a file called, "Scene"
711 and it shows the Occupiers in the Park and the third file is 2 called, "Park" and it shows the helicopter and the -- I've 3 been asked by some of my Friends about copies of the CD-ROMs 4 and the DVDs that have been marked as exhibits. 5 What we will do next week, we'll create copies 6 for those who would like them. If they would just send us an 7 e-mail if you would like a copy of the CD-ROMs and the DVDs, 8 then we'll get copies next week and distribute them. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-66: CD-ROM with three (3) files 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Now, Mr. George, the video that we saw of 15 the helicopter -- part of P-66, was taken at around 11:30 and 16 can you tell me, the afternoon of September 6th what you did? 17 A: Just hung out. 18 Q: And in the afternoon of September 6th, can 19 you tell me during the afternoon, how many people would have 20 been in the Park -- around the Park store area or the parking 21 lot area? 22 A: Probably around fifteen (15) people. 23 Q: Fifteen (15) people? 24 A: Give or take a few, yeah. 25 Q: And during the afternoon of September
721 6th, did you observe any Ontario Provincial Police -- we 2 spoke about, in the morning, I think you said there were two 3 (2) or three (3) cruisers from time to time -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- on East Parkway Drive and Army Camp 6 Road. In the afternoon of September 6th, were there cruisers 7 as -- in the same places, on East Parkway Drive and Army Camp 8 Road? 9 A: Yeah. I think they were just cruising 10 around. 11 Q: And -- 12 A: Just hanging out too. 13 Q: Pardon me? 14 A: They were just hanging out too. 15 Q: And did you have any interaction during 16 the afternoon of September 6th with any of the officers from 17 the Ontario Provincial Police? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And on -- in the afternoon of September 20 6th, was there still a checkpoint along Army Camp Road, an 21 OPP checkpoint? 22 A: Just on the corner, there, but I didn't 23 see one on the video. They might have been just parked 24 there. Because they were always pulling over and when -- I 25 guess whenever they had something to say to each other they'd
731 pull over and talk amongst themselves so that's probably what 2 I seen. 3 Q: You're talking about the corner of East 4 Park Way Drive and Army Camp -- 5 A: No. At the end of Matheson Drive. 6 Q: At the end of Matheson? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And was there a checkpoint farther down 9 on Matheson Drive? 10 A: Towards the park? 11 Q: No, towards Highway 21 on September 6th? 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: Not Matheson Drive. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Not Matheson, excuse me -- thank you, Mr. 16 Roland -- on Army Camp Road? 17 A: I don't remember seeing any checkpoints 18 up there. Well, there was cops up there too, pretty much, 19 but -- 20 Q: When you say there were police officers, 21 up where, Mr. George. 22 A: Yeah. They were hanging around there, 23 near the corner. 24 Q: Of the? 25 A: Highway 21 and Army Camp, they were
741 hanging around that corner too. 2 Q: On September 6th? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And was there a checkpoint there, or they 5 were stopping people, or what were they doing? Just simply 6 hanging out? 7 A: Yeah. I think they were just hanging 8 out. 9 Q: And how many police officers would there 10 -- did you observe them yourself? 11 A: Probably just a couple times I -- I'd 12 drive up there and I'd be going by the gate there, and I'd 13 see a few cops. But I never went right up there and checked 14 them out and all. 15 Q: You were on the inside of -- 16 A: Yeah. Yeah. 17 Q: And in the afternoon of September 6th, 18 what was the atmosphere in the -- in the park? 19 A: It was -- people were upset about what 20 happened the night before but other than that, it was -- it 21 was all right. I was happy, I guess. 22 Q: And then how long did you remain in the 23 park on September 6th? 24 A: I was there all day. 25 Q: And were -- at one point in time in the
751 late -- in the afternoon, did Mr. Gerald George come down by 2 the park? 3 A: On the 6th? 4 Q: On the 6th. 5 A: I don't know. I never have seen Gerald 6 George at all. 7 Q: And the -- okay. So in the afternoon -- 8 in the early evening of -- can you tell me what you did later 9 in the afternoon on September 6th? 10 A: We were just hanging around. 11 Q: Okay. And at some point, did you learn 12 of an incident between Mr. Stuart George and Mr. Cecil 13 George? Gerald George, excuse me? 14 A: Yeah. I heard about what happened. 15 Q: And who told you what happened between 16 Gerald George and Stuart George? 17 A: I heard it from several people. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Like, everybody just knew about it. 20 Q: You weren't there? 21 A: No, I wasn't there. 22 Q: And later on that evening, did Mr. Cecil 23 Bernard George come to the park? 24 A: Yeah. I seen him come up there. He 25 wasn't in his truck though. He -- I remember him -- he was
761 pretty excited. He seen the cops were massing up. He 2 brought some radios, like a scanner he had with him. 3 Q: And can you tell us approximately when 4 you saw Mr. Cecil Bernard George? 5 A: That was -- it was getting pretty dark by 6 then. 7 Q: And did you see where Mr. Cecil Bernard 8 George came from? 9 A: No, I never seen where he come from. I 10 just remember him showing up there. 11 Q: Showing up at the Park? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And when you saw him, he was on the 14 inside of the Park? Or on the outside? 15 A: Yeah, I think he was -- he was on the 16 inside both in -- inside and outside. Because we were kind 17 of just hanging out in the fence there. 18 Q: And when Mr. George arrived, were the 19 police officers in their cruisers still at the intersection 20 of East Parkway and Army Camp Road? 21 A: No, I don't think so. They -- they took 22 off, yeah. 23 Q: And were there any police officers in the 24 vicinity of the intersection, to you recollection? 25 A: No.
771 Q: And so were you present when -- did you 2 speak or did you hear Mr. Cecil Bernard George speak? 3 A: Yeah. I talked to him. I listened to 4 what he had to say. 5 Q: And what did Mr. Cecil Bernard George 6 have to say? 7 A: He was just telling us about, They're 8 coming in. The cops are coming in. 9 Q: And it's important that you tell us the 10 best you can your exact recollection of what Mr. Cecil 11 Bernard George told you. 12 A: He said, I just came from Kettle Point 13 way and I went through a checkpoint there and -- 14 Q: Checkpoint where? 15 A: Somewhere down by Walleygators 16 (phonetic). Somewhere in that vicinity. 17 Q: And can you -- can I just stop you. 18 Walleygators is along East Parkway Drive at -- near I think 19 it's Centre Ipperwash Road? 20 A: Yeah, I think that's what it's called. 21 Q: It's the next -- it's the road that leads 22 up to Raven's Wood? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes, okay. 25 A: And he mentioned about going through a
781 checkpoint. He noticed that they were -- they're arming up 2 for something. He said they were massing. He said -- he 3 mentioned they were going to be coming down the road or 4 something. He said they're -- they're coming pretty soon. I 5 don't remember his exact words but it was something along the 6 lines of that. 7 Like, I remember him saying they were -- they 8 massing. They were gathering. And then he said something 9 about having to come through in his truck and they turned him 10 back and like he -- he mentioned that he had to run up the 11 beach or something. 12 Q: Go -- go up the beach? 13 A: Yeah. He ran there anyways -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: -- from somewhere. I think he might have 16 parked his truck somewhere. 17 Q: And did he -- you said it was -- and did 18 he bring something with him? 19 A: Yeah, he had a radio, like a scanner and 20 he had a stick with him. A walking stick. 21 Q: And at this point in time were members of 22 your group inside or outside the Park? Were you -- were the 23 members of the group on the sandy parking lot on the outside 24 of the Park? 25 A: Yeah, mostly everybody was inside the
791 fence on the sandy parking lot but there was maybe five (5) 2 or six (6), maybe seven (7) of us milling around outside the 3 Park because we wanted to see down the road. Because the 4 cops weren't there no more. So we came out and -- so we 5 could see up the road, you know, check it out. 6 Q: So that at this point in time when Mr. 7 Cecil Bernard George arrived, there were people -- most of 8 the people were on the inside of the Park but there were 9 people outside on the sandy parking lot -- 10 A: Yeah. Yes. 11 Q: -- the access road? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And the -- and you were outside the Park 14 looking down East Parkway Drive? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And was that after you spoke to Mr. Cecil 17 Bernard George or before? 18 A: Probably before and after, yeah. I was 19 hanging out there too. 20 Q: And what happened to the radios that Mr. 21 Cecil Bernard George gave to you, or brought? 22 A: We tried to -- we tried to get them going 23 but we'd never had no codes for it. So it didn't work at 24 first. And we got codes off of somebody in Oneida, there. 25 He was -- he -- we called him up, he gave us codes.
801 Q: To make the radios work? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And what then happened with the radios? 4 A: We just listened -- listened in, what 5 they were talking about. 6 Q: Was this -- the radios that he brought, 7 were they -- was it a scanner radio, a police radio? 8 A: Yeah. Yeah. 9 Q: And did he bring some walkie-talkies? 10 A: I think he had two (2) walkie-talkies 11 with him too. I'm not sure if they worked or not. 12 Q: Okay. But the radio you're talking about 13 is a scanner? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And so did you listen to the 16 scanner? 17 A: Off and on. 18 Q: And do you recall anything you heard on 19 the scanner? 20 A: I just remember hearing cops talking to 21 each other, just -- I don't remember what they were saying. 22 They were just talking about, So-and-so is over there and So- 23 and-so is over here. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: And I don't -- can't recall if they --
811 they ordered a punch-out or nothing on -- I never heard 2 nothing like that. 3 Q: You never heard anything like that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: So after you were out in the parking lot, 6 in the sandy parking lot outside the Park, and you said you 7 were looking down East Parkway Drive, what did you do? 8 A: I wasn't around the scanner the whole 9 time, so that's why I never really heard too much. But I was 10 walking around on the road, looking down the road, both ways, 11 checking it out. 12 Q: Both ways, looking down East Parkway and 13 Army Camp? 14 A: Yes. And we were just walking around, 15 checking the scene out. And it was -- it was getting pretty 16 dark out by then. Yeah, it was -- it was real dark. And 17 after a while, we were walking around, I think there was me, 18 J.R. -- 19 Q: J.R. Who's J.R.? 20 A: It's Cully's (phonetic) -- Cully's boy, 21 J.R. Bressette, could be a nephew of Dudley's, there. He was 22 up there with us. And Kevin Thomas, I remember him being 23 there. And there was a couple other guys there too. 24 We were walking around. I remember we walked 25 through the bush, there, on the -- the right side of the
821 road. 2 Q: And your going to Exhibit P-53, yes? 3 A: We were -- we were checking out this side 4 of the bush here, because we weren't sure if they had 5 anything set up there or if anybody was walking around 6 through there. They might have had a couple of spies 7 sneaking around. 8 We found a wire over here, I remember, 9 somewhere over here. 10 Q: Along -- along East Parkway Drive? 11 A: Yeah. There was some sort of weird wire 12 that was in the bush, there. I didn't look like it belonged 13 there. So we ripped it down. 14 Q: And what -- when you ripped it down, was 15 it connected to something? 16 A: It was going into the bushes. It was 17 going into the darkness. 18 Q: So you just -- what did you do? You 19 pulled on it? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And what happened? 22 A: It came off. 23 Q: So did it come off so that the end of the 24 wire was in your hands or -- 25 A: No. We pulled on it with a stick and it
831 came loose, it just, you felt the slack. 2 Q: Oh, I see. 3 A: And we just left it. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: It was weird looking wire, like it -- it 6 ran about throat level. 7 Q: Oh, I was -- it was in the -- in was in 8 the bushes at -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- high -- off the ground? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And then what -- after you found 13 this wire and pulled the wire, what did you do? 14 A: Then we just came back to -- the wire was 15 around here somewhere and -- 16 Q: You're pointing to the left-hand side of 17 the -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- actual west of the -- of the driveway 20 on the left-hand side of Exhibit P-23? 21 A: Pardon me? 22 Q: Along East Parkway Drive? 23 A: Yeah, East Parkway Drive. 24 Q: Yeah. And -- 25 A: And we just come back after that. After
841 we ripped the wire down, we -- we came back, walking back 2 down here. This is where we were hanging out and we looked 3 down this way, that wire was over here and we came back over 4 here. And we were just coming back and this car come around 5 the corner and about three (3) guys got out. It stopped 6 right about here -- somewhere around here. 7 Q: Perhaps what we'll do, Mr. -- Mr. George, 8 if you could take a marker and point out -- mark number 1 on 9 this copy of Exhibit P-63 -- where -- firstly where the wire 10 was. 11 A: Somewhere in there. Do you want me to 12 mark the number? 13 Q: If you could mark it number 1, please and 14 then -- with number 2, the three (3) gentlemen that you just 15 referred to, if you could mark that with number 2 and you 16 have need to come back to the mike, Mr. George. 17 So that, you saw a car go around the corner 18 and stop on East Parkway Drive and three (3) people got out 19 of the -- the car? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And then what happened. 22 A: They jumped over the fence here. We could 23 hear them rustling through the -- the bushes and we heard the 24 -- the fence creaking because they were jumping over and we 25 were -- we were over here. We come running over here and
851 that -- that car took off as soon as we come running up there 2 and w could hear those guys running through the bushes up 3 here. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And they're -- they're not 5 shown on this copy of Exhibit P-23. Perhaps, Commissioner, 6 we'll mark this copy of Exhibit P-23 the next exhibit. It 7 would be Exhibit P-67. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-67: A copy of Exhibit P-63, marked by 10 Abraham David George 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And there -- on the area where you've 14 marked your two (2), there's -- below it there are some 15 buildings on this plan and I take it to the west of those 16 buildings there was bush and trees? 17 A: Yeah. It was all bush right here. 18 Q: And you're pointing from the number 2 and 19 the trees that are shown on the plan to the left towards the 20 left-hand side of the plan and it would be the west? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And so you heard noises in the -- in the 23 trees? 24 A: Yeah. Those guys were running up through 25 the bushes and it was -- it was pretty dark out and we just
861 started yelling at them, something like, We know you're 2 there. You can't sneak around on us, kind of thing. 3 Q: Okay. And then what happened? 4 A: And then every -- we just -- we just -- we 5 were hanging around this area here. 6 Q: Hanging around in the -- in the -- the 7 sandy parking lot outside the Park? 8 A: Yeah. Yeah. 9 Q: In the area, I think on Exhibit P-67, it 10 was -- 11 A: There was people coming -- 12 Q: It says, "sand covered roadway". In that 13 area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: Yes, and we were just hanging around 17 there, there was probably maybe six (6) or seven (7) of us 18 and then there was -- there would be a couple more people 19 come by and they were -- they were running back and forth. 20 Q: Back and forth between the sandy parking 21 lot outside the Park -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- and inside the Park? 24 A: Yeah, whenever somebody wanted to come out 25 and check it out --
871 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- they'd come -- they'd come walking out. 3 Q: Perhaps what I'm going to ask you to do, 4 Mr. George, if you could take that other mike and so, use it 5 when you're looking at the -- the plan -- the hand mike -- 6 you see and then it'll make sure we record what you say? 7 A: All righty. 8 Q: So, people were going back and forth 9 inside from the sandy parking lot to the -- on the outside of 10 the Park to, I guess, the sandy parking lot on the inside of 11 the Park? 12 A: Yes, we were checking it, making sure no 13 one's going to sneak up on us. And then that's when we seen 14 those guys and then we knew they were in the area, so we 15 figured there was -- they were almost -- probably close to 16 coming down that road to do whatever they were going to do. 17 Q: And did Cecil Bernard George, after he 18 arrived with the radios and the scanners and gave you the 19 advice that he gave you, did he leave or did he stay with 20 you? 21 A: No, he -- he stayed with us. 22 Q: Yeah, and then -- what happened next? 23 A: We just hung -- hung around for a few more 24 minutes and just waiting and I think people, they knew the 25 cops were coming and we just hung around. No one was going
881 to take off. 2 Q: And when you say you knew the police were 3 coming, on what did you base that? Other -- the statements 4 by Mr. Cecil Bernard George? 5 A: Yeah. I forgot to mention too, some time 6 during that time I took off because there was -- there was 7 cops going all over the place, like up the road there. And I 8 remember taking off up the road there and I seen -- there was 9 cops -- it looked like they were massing up on the Army Camp 10 Road there. Just -- there's a park. 11 Q: Perhaps I'll bring up onto the screen a 12 map, Mr. George. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: So you said that you went up the road, 17 which road did you go up? Army Camp Road? 18 A: Yeah. Army Camp Road and I think I was 19 coming up to get my spotlight because it was getting dark by 20 then and then when we seen a -- a lot of cops massing up 21 here, this was just before Cecil showed up. 22 Q: So that -- 23 A: I think it was somewhere in this area 24 there. Because we were driving up the road, I remember 25 Marlin was there too. And I think Glenn even stopped by too.
891 He might have. He was driving down the road. 2 Q: Were you on the road on the inside of the 3 army camp parallel to Army Camp Road? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: And it looked like the cops were going to 7 try and force their way in somewhere around here, like. 8 There was a whole bunch of them that were gathering there. 9 And we saw that and I stopped, Marlin stopped and we were 10 wondering what the heck they were trying to do there. 11 And like I had an idea like they were -- I 12 figured they were going to separate our groups, split us up. 13 So I told -- I told Marlin to stay and keep his eye on it and 14 I went back down there because, you know, we weren't sure 15 what was going to happen. They're going -- they're going to 16 try and force their way in here or down there. They were 17 doing something there anyways. 18 Q: And this was along Army Camp Road -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- outside the army camp and on the map 21 that is up on the screen which is a copy of Exhibit P-63 and 22 P-40. The -- as you will see the road that runs from the 23 dump towards the west, is that where the officers were or 24 between that road and Highway 21? 25 A: It was right around this area here.
901 Q: The "Y" on army? 2 A: Yeah, around there. 3 Q: And how many police officers were there 4 there? 5 A: There's was lots. It looked like there 6 was a lot more than they were -- they had at their 7 checkpoints. It's like they were gathered pretty thick there 8 and we were wondering what the heck was going on. 9 Q: And can you tell us -- you said this was 10 before Mr. Cecil Bernard George came? 11 A: Yeah, it was -- it was probably -- it 12 wasn't quite dark yet, but it was -- it was getting dark. 13 Q: And you said that you were going back to 14 the army camp to get your spotlight. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Why were you doing that? 17 A: Just so we could see at night. 18 Q: And had you had your spotlight down there 19 on September 5th? In the Park? 20 A: No. No. 21 Q: But this night you decided you wanted to 22 get your spotlight? 23 A: Yeah. That's -- 24 Q: So, you saw the officers on Army Camp Road 25 and --
911 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- how were they dressed, the officers? 3 A: They were all dressed up in their grey 4 fatigues, bullet-proof vests. They were just dressed like 5 that, like they were during the day. 6 Q: They were just -- they looked like -- they 7 were dressed the same way they were during the day? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And, so then, what did you do? You saw 10 these police officers, you spoke to Mr. Marlin Simon -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- and -- 13 A: I think Glenn -- Glenn stopped by, too. I 14 think Glenn made a fire there and then I went back down here. 15 Q: You went back down here? You mean you 16 went back towards the Park? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: I came back in the Park and that's when 20 Slippery (phonetic) come by and that's when everything was 21 just about to happen. 22 Q: Now, Slippery is Mr. Cecil Bernard George? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you got back with your -- your -- 25 A: Spotlight.
921 Q: -- spotlight and your car and it was then 2 that Mr. Cecil Bernard George came with the -- the scanner? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And you then went out on the road, 5 as you told us. You were back off the road into the parking 6 lot -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- on -- on -- and then -- the parking lot 9 outside the -- the Park. Then what happened? 10 A: Well, then all that other stuff happened 11 that I explained earlier about finding the wire and seeing 12 the -- 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: -- three (3) cops jump over the fence and 15 then shortly after that, probably -- maybe -- maybe ten (10) 16 minutes after that, that's when we saw the -- the police 17 coming around the corner there. 18 Q: You saw the police coming around the 19 corner. When you say, "coming around the corner," where -- 20 where were the police when you first saw them? On East 21 Parkway Drive? 22 A: Yeah, on East Parkway Drive. 23 Q: Now, this is police different than the 24 three (3) police officers that you told us about before? 25 A: Yeah, this was, like, a platoon --
931 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- platoon of cops with their shields. 3 Q: So you saw some police officers coming 4 down the road with shields? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And they were coming east on East Parkway 7 Drive towards the -- 8 a: Yes. 9 Q: -- the Provincial Park? Is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And then -- and where were you when 12 you first saw these police officers coming down the road? 13 A: I was on the roadway. 14 Q: You were on East -- East Parkway Drive? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And on Exhibit P-67, which is the map 17 behind you, the intersection map behind you, can you point 18 out there where you were? 19 A: Yeah, there was a -- there was a few of us 20 that were gathered around here, maybe five (5) or six (6) and 21 we just wanted to keep an eye on the -- down here because 22 that's where Slippery said there was a big bunch of cops. 23 Q: And, could you mark with a -- number 3 24 where you were standing when you first saw the police 25 officers coming down East Parkway Drive? And --
941 A: The -- the road kind of curves, too, like 2 that, so it's kind of see straight down the road. You got to 3 kind of get -- get close to the edge of the road on the south 4 side. 5 Q: So that the road -- the road's not 6 straight as it was -- as it appears on P-67, but curves a 7 bit? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. So you -- how many -- could you see 10 how many officers -- how many officers did you observe when 11 you first saw the officers coming down the road? 12 A: It was just a big bunch of them. They 13 were all gathered up in a platoon. They were all bunched 14 together; they had their shields end-to-end. 15 Q: They had their shields end-to-end? The 16 were close to -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: What do you mean by that? 19 A: They were -- they were -- they had these 20 plastic shields, probably about this big -- 21 Q: And "this big" is how big? 22 A: About that wide. 23 Q: About three (3) feet? 24 A: Yeah, about three (3) feet wide and maybe 25 four (4) feet tall.
951 Q: Yes? 2 A: And they were just all bunched right up. 3 There was -- it looked like -- it looked like a -- like a 4 pretty fair sized platoon, like what you would see the army 5 guys marching around, like. There was a lot of them, 6 probably, I'd say a hundred (100) maybe. 7 Q: And after you saw these police officers 8 marching on the roadway, what did you then do? 9 A: We just waited for them and we were 10 watching them. We kept our eyes on them and when they got 11 close enough we lit them up with the spotlights. 12 Q: And did you have your spotlight with you 13 out on the road? 14 A: No. It was hooked up to my car. 15 Q: By this point, you had -- where were you 16 when you lit up your spotlight? 17 A: I was at my car. 18 Q: And your car was where? 19 A: It was on -- inside the -- the sandy 20 parking lot on our side of the fence. 21 Q: And parked along the fence? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And so that -- did you and your whole 24 group go back into the Park when you saw the police officers 25 coming down the road?
961 A: Yes. When they got close enough 2 everybody was in. 3 Q: And you shone a spotlight on the police 4 officers? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And did anyone else shine a spotlight on 7 the police officers? 8 A: Yeah. I think there was another 9 spotlight going. I'm not sure whose it was. I think maybe 10 Judas had one sticking on his car. 11 Q: And Judas is Mr. Roderick George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And how -- what was the size of your 14 spotlight if you could remember? 15 A: It was a five hundred thousand (500,000) 16 candle power cubing spotlight. It was a yellow one. 17 Q: And I take it that's a very bright 18 spotlight. 19 A: Yeah, it's pretty bright. 20 Q: And what about Mr. Roderick George? Do 21 you know what size his spotlight was? 22 A: I'm not sure about his spotlight. It's 23 probably around the same power. 24 Q: Okay. And can you tell us -- you were 25 shining the spotlights on the police officers, what were the
971 police officers doing? 2 A: Well, once -- they were just banging 3 their clubs on their shields. Like they'd do it in time with 4 their -- their footsteps. 5 Q: And when did they start banging their 6 clubs on their shields? 7 A: When they got -- probably when we started 8 turn on our lights. That's when they started their -- 9 banging their shields. 10 Q: And when they started banging their 11 shields, can you -- can you tell us where on -- they were in 12 location to the intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army 13 Camp Road? 14 A: They were probably -- there's a little 15 curve right there and they were just coming around that curve 16 and about probably half way from that curve to the sandy 17 parking lot, that's when they started banging their shields. 18 Q: So they came around a curve in the road - 19 - East Parkway marching east towards the Park and you began 20 to shine your spotlight on them, the police officers began to 21 bang on their shields and continued to march down East 22 Parkway Drive? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And can you tell us -- estimate the 25 distance it was from the intersection to where you first saw
981 the police officers? 2 A: It's say it was probably around three 3 hundred (300) yards. 4 Q: Okay. And then what happened? You 5 continued to shine your spotlights? 6 A: Yeah. Right up until they come right up 7 to us. 8 Q: And so -- can you tell us what the police 9 officers did then? They marched down East Parkway Drive? 10 A: Yeah. They were marching right at us and 11 I think they had a couple of guys on the sides of them, both 12 sides. Like, crouched down kind of in the ditch. 13 Q: Did you see people crouch down in the 14 ditch, Mr. George? 15 A: Yeah it looked like he was crouched down 16 a little bit like -- almost like he was sneaking. He was 17 hunched right over. 18 Q: And did you see one person or two (2) 19 people like that? 20 A: There was probably about two (2) of them. 21 Q: Okay. And was that on the north side of 22 East Parkway Drive or on the south side? 23 A: South side. 24 Q: South side? 25 A: Yeah. And they just kept marching up
991 banging their shields and he come up to us and they kind of 2 stopped at the edge of the sandy park way there. 3 Q: When you say they came up to you, they -- 4 they came up to you and they stopped at the edge of the sandy 5 parkway -- parking lot, can you point out on Exhibit P-67 6 where the police officers stopped? 7 A: Yeah. They stopped pretty much right 8 about here. I don't know if they stopped but it looked like 9 they slowed down quite a bit. And by that time everybody was 10 over here. 11 Q: So that -- you're pointing on Exhibit P- 12 67, the police officers either stopped or slowed down at the 13 -- the point on P-67 where the pavement stop and the sandy 14 parking lot starts, the sandy parking lot outside the park? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And your group was inside the park, along 17 the park fence? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Then what happened? 20 A: They -- they kind of stopped or slowed 21 down and then, all of a sudden, they just sped up and they 22 ran -- they sprinted the last distance. I think the -- yeah, 23 they came right up to the fence. 24 Q: And after the -- when the police officers 25 slowed down or stopped at the edge of the pavement and the
1001 sandy parking lot outside of the -- of the park, were there 2 any of your group or any people in the sandy park -- sandy 3 parking lot outside the park? 4 A: No. We were all on our side. 5 Q: And the police officers then -- 6 A: They sprinted the last -- this distance, 7 here, and they come -- come right up to the fence. 8 Q: And they came up to the fence. And how 9 far -- how many police officers were along the fence line? 10 Can you recall? 11 A: It was kind of spread out. They were -- 12 kind of spread themselves out a little bit. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: They ran -- they ran right up and -- but 15 we were spread out through here. I think I was right about - 16 - right about here. 17 Q: You were standing near the -- the kiosk? 18 A: The kiosk? No. 19 Q: Not the kiosk, excuse me, the -- 20 A: The gate. 21 Q: -- the turnstile the gate? 22 A: Yeah. Yeah. 23 Q: And could you mark number 4, I believe it 24 would be, where you were standing when the police officers 25 came up to the fence?
1011 A: Right about there. And their shield 2 clatter was -- it was pretty loud. They were banging quite 3 hard on their shields. 4 Q: And they were -- were the police officers 5 banging on their shields when they came up to the fence line? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And who was standing beside you? Do you 8 recall who was on your right-hand side and who was on your 9 left-hand side as you were along the fence line? 10 A: I think my brother was on the left-hand 11 side. 12 Q: And that would be your brother Clayton 13 George? 14 A: Yeah. And I think Judas was on my right- 15 hand side. 16 Q: And that's Mr. Roderick George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And at this point did you still have your 19 spotlight? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what were you doing with your 22 spotlight? 23 A: I was shining it on the cops. 24 Q: And -- the police officers who were right 25 at the fence line?
1021 A: Yeah. They -- they came right up and 2 then they backed off. They backed up a bit. 3 Q: So the police officers came up to the 4 fence line and then backed away from the fence line? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And how far did the police officers back 7 away from the fence? Did they go to the other side of the 8 sandy parking lot, or the middle of -- 9 A: Yeah. They went around the other side, 10 there. 11 Q: When you say "the other side", can you 12 describe that for us, Mr. George, by reference to exhibit to 13 Exhibit P-67? 14 A: Yeah. They come running up here, then 15 they backed off. And they were -- they were doing some sort 16 of manoeuvres. I could hear some guy barking orders. And 17 they were -- they were kind of -- they were moving their 18 formations around. 19 Q: And so that they were moving their 20 formation around in the area -- 21 A: Right about here. 22 Q: Okay. Could you draw a dashed line and 23 put a number 5 where the officers were doing their manoeuvre, 24 to the best -- I know it's a scale map but if you could help 25 us by doing that, that would be helpful.
1031 A: They were doing some sort of weird stuff. 2 Like, they made a triangle shape. And they'd make their line 3 go this way and that way. Then -- 4 Q: You'll have to use -- make sure you speak 5 into the mic, Mr. George. 6 A: Yeah, they were doing all kinds of weird 7 stuff. Their line was moving around. 8 Q: And were you able to tell how many rows or 9 lines of police officers there were? 10 A: When they come marching down it looked 11 like they were in three (3) or four (4) lines. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: But when they got up here, they were kind 14 of spread out more. There was one (1) row in the front, 15 there was probably, maybe, twenty (20) of them spread out -- 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: -- and it looked like there was another 18 row behind them and then there was more behind them -- more 19 bunched up. 20 Q: And the -- when a row was -- with 21 approximately twenty (20) police officers, was that when they 22 first moved onto the sandy parking lot outside the Park and 23 moved towards the fence? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then they retreated to the spot where
1041 you've drawn a line and -- and did some manoeuvres, could you 2 mark a 5 beside that line, Mr. George? And then what 3 happened? 4 A: They were -- they were banging on their 5 shields and we were whooping it up. 6 Q: When you say you were, "whooping it up," 7 you were yelling at the police officers? 8 A: Yeah. Yeah, like -- you know, war cry 9 kind of thing. 10 Q: And so, the police officers were making 11 noise with their shields and you were making noise -- yelling 12 at them? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And was anyone else -- was anyone, at this 15 point in time, in the sandy parking lot? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And, at this point in time, the police 18 officer were -- officers were on one (1) side where you've 19 got the -- item number 5 on P-67 -- your group was inside 20 along the fence line on the inside of the Park. Then what 21 happened? 22 A: After they backed off and done their 23 little manoeuver things, that's -- that's when Stewart's dog 24 -- Stewart's dog was wandering out there and I remember 25 seeing that dog walking around those pigs, I mean the cops.
1051 Q: And you say that Stewart -- Mr. Stewart 2 George had a dog? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what kind of dog was Mr. Stewart 5 George's dog? 6 A: He was like a pitbull mix. 7 Q: And what colour was he? 8 A: He was -- he was black. 9 Q: And the dog went out onto the sandy 10 parking lot? 11 A: Yes, and I remember seeing the dog getting 12 spun -- spun out in the dirt, like somebody kicked him. 13 Q: So, the dog went right over to the police 14 officers? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Where they were massed? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yes? And did the dog bark at the police 19 officers? 20 A: No, he was just walking. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: I don't -- I don't remember hearing him 23 bark. He was just walking around, checking it out and the 24 next thing you know, he's -- I seen him spinning in the dirt. 25 Q: And then what happened?
1061 A: Then my Uncle Stewart got upset and he 2 started yelling around, Who kicked my dog, and somebody said 3 something back to him. 4 Q: Do you remember what was said -- what your 5 uncle Stewart George said beyond, Who kicked my dog? 6 A: Yeah, he -- 7 Q: If anything? 8 A: -- he mentioned the "F" word in there, 9 too. 10 Q: And, so he was yelling, he yelled at the 11 police officers and one (1) of the police officers yelled 12 back at him? 13 A: Yeah. I -- I don't remember what he said, 14 it was something rude, anyways. And -- 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: -- after that, that's -- they charged 17 again. 18 Q: The police officers moved forward again 19 and charged the -- the -- you say they charged. What did 20 they -- can you describe what the police officers did? 21 A: Yeah, they -- they come running right up 22 to the fence again and they -- they started trying to club us 23 over the fence. 24 Q: And when you say, "They started to club 25 you over the fence," what -- what were they holding in their
1071 hands? 2 A: They were holding batons -- all different 3 kinds of batons -- ASP batons and wooden batons. 4 Q: And do you know what an ASP baton is? Can 5 you describe that for us? 6 A: It's a -- a metal club. It's like an 7 antenna, but -- but made real thick. It works like an 8 antenna, it slides out and it's like tubes inside of each 9 other and they -- you could flick it out and it would come to 10 about maybe, three (3) -- three (3) feet. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: And it's got a little metal ball on the 13 tip of it and it's got a sponge handle. 14 Q: So that it -- that it extends from a 15 smaller area like a radio -- when you say an antenna, you 16 mean -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- the car antenna on a car? 19 A: Yeah. It looks like a real big antenna. 20 But when it's folded up it's probably maybe a foot long. You 21 see cops with them all the time on their belts. 22 Q: And when it's -- when it was extended, 23 you said it was -- you thought it was about three (3) feet 24 long? 25 A: Yeah, about three (3) feet.
1081 Q: So that the police officers were using 2 their batons and their -- the batons, what was the size of 3 the batons do you recall? 4 A: They're about the same size. Those ones 5 look like a little baseball bat. Be about three (3) feet, 6 yeah. About three (3) feet and it had a metal ring right 7 around the end of it. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And they were using those too. 10 Q: And what was your group doing at this 11 point in time when the police officers were up at the fence 12 the second time and using their ASPs and their batons. 13 A: We were still whooping it up and a few of 14 us were banging on the cars because they were trying to 15 intimidate us and we showed them -- tried to show them that 16 they're not going to intimidate us by giving them the same 17 treatment, yelling. 18 Q: So they were yell -- they were making 19 noise at you and you were making noise back at them. 20 A: Yeah. But when they come charging up and 21 they were trying to club us over the fence there, we just 22 tried to club back. 23 Q: And when you say you tried to club back, 24 what were you clubbing back with or what did -- 25 A: Some of us had baseball bats, some of us
1091 had sticks. I think some of us was -- might have been 2 throwing rocks. Maybe a log. My brother was throwing -- 3 throwing a log or something. 4 Q: And you observed people with baseball 5 bats and sticks? 6 A: Yeah. Not everybody had a stick though. 7 Q: And how many were there in your group at 8 this point along the fence line? 9 A: I'd say around twenty-five (25). 10 Q: And how many can you recall -- how many 11 police officers were up along the fence line? 12 A: The ones that come running into fence? 13 There was probably maybe two (2) rows of them. I'd say there 14 was probably spread out twenty (20) across the first row. 15 And there was another row maybe probably just the same size. 16 There was more on the road still. 17 Q: And did you see a vehicle or any vehicles 18 on the road behind the police officers? 19 A: Not -- I didn't notice any vehicles on 20 the road until they were dragging Slippery down the road. 21 Q: Okay. We'll perhaps stop there for the 22 moment. Commissioner, it's a little after 1:00 and start 23 again at 2:15. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that okay? 25 You all right?
1101 THE WITNESS: Yep. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 2:15 is fine. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands adjourned 5 until 2:15. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 1:05 p.m. 8 --- Upon commencing at 2:16 p.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, this inquiry is 11 resumed. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good afternoon. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: We were discussing just before the break 18 that the police officers were at the fence the second time 19 they came forward and your group was inside the fence and you 20 were exchanging -- they were -- the police officer was 21 clubbing at you and -- were you and others clubbing back at 22 the police officers? 23 A: There was probably a couple of them. 24 Like they were -- they were trying to reach over pretty far 25 and get whoever they can hit. And our guys kind of took a
1111 step back and probably whoever had a stick would be probably 2 swinging back. 3 Q: And could I take you back -- the police 4 officers when they first came down, came up to the fence line 5 and as I understand from what you said, the -- anyone in the 6 sandy parking lot outside the fence went back into the Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the second time that the police 9 officers came towards the fence, was there anyone outside the 10 -- outside the -- the fence -- outside the Park in the sandy 11 parking lot? Had someone gone out there after the -- the 12 police officers had moved back? 13 A: I don't think so. I think we -- whoever 14 was at the entrance there might have taken a step out, maybe 15 -- maybe like one (1) or two (2) steps. 16 Q: Because I'm trying to understand why the 17 police officers came back the second time once everyone was 18 back inside the Park and I'm wondering if there was not 19 people who had gone back out into the sandy parking lot from 20 inside the Park? 21 A: They might have taken a step out and then 22 they come rushing back up and that's when they were trying to 23 club everybody over the fence. And then after that, they 24 backed up again -- 25 Q: Yes?
1121 A: -- and that's when Slippery (phonetic) 2 come out and he -- he was approaching them, just him and 3 there was probably maybe two (2) or three (3) of us behind 4 him, kind of spread out and he -- he wanted to talk to those 5 cops. He was just -- I remember him saying something about, 6 like, Don't bring your guns here. You don't have to do this 7 thing. And he was trying to talk to them and somebody barked 8 out an order and they -- they punched out again and they just 9 -- they just run him over. 10 Q: And where -- can you mark on Exhibit P-67 11 with a six (6) where Mr. Cecil Bernard George was when they - 12 - he was grabbed by the police? 13 A: It's probably right about here. 14 Q: And where were you in relation to -- you 15 marked a six (6) at the spot where Mr. Cecil Bernard George 16 was grabbed by the police, and where were you in relation to 17 Mr. Cecil Bernard George, Mr. George? 18 A: I think I might have taken a couple of 19 steps out there with him, too. I was probably right about 20 here. Do you want me to mark with a seven (7)? 21 Q: Mark with a seven (7) where you were and 22 who else came out with you? 23 A: There was a -- I don't know who else was - 24 - was there, but I remember, like, maybe one (1) or two (2). 25 Q: Okay, and so Mr. Cecil Bernard George was
1131 caught by the police and what then happened? 2 A: They -- they -- they just started clubbing 3 the hell out of him. 4 Q: When you say, "They started clubbing the 5 hell out of him," -- 6 A: I seen him go down on his -- 7 Q: -- who are you referring to as -- as 8 "they"? 9 A: I seen him go down on his back. They just 10 run him right over and he kind of -- he was still looking at 11 them. He was trying to talk to them right at the moment they 12 run him over and he went down on his back like this, and he 13 had his hands up like that because they were -- they just run 14 him right over. 15 I think they might have -- two (2) of them 16 might have clubbed him on the head and he fell backwards and 17 he was trying to use his arms to cover himself. And he 18 landed right on his back and his legs came up and he tried to 19 make himself into a ball because they just surrounded him -- 20 like, right as soon as they run him over. 21 There was some guys behind him that kind of 22 filled the gap where those officers were that first 23 encountered him and they started beating the hell right out 24 of him, like they were clubbing him all different angles. 25 They surrounded him. He was -- there was a full circle right
1141 around him and there was people -- I could see people trying 2 to jump over the cops trying to get in a -- a shot. 3 Q: And how many police officers did you 4 observe around Mr. Cecil Bernard George? 5 A: I'd say there was at least -- at least ten 6 (10) cops on him. 7 Q: And the -- then what happened? 8 A: They just -- they -- they beat the hell 9 out of them. They were -- they were -- he was on the ground. 10 They were clubbing him up, kicking him and those cops they 11 just -- they come up to the fence again and we ran back in 12 and we were -- we were watching them. 13 After we came back in those cops came back up 14 and they didn't come right up to the fence that time. They 15 came just short of the fence and they stayed there while 16 Slippery's getting beat up and we seen them -- some cops had 17 him by the hair and they're dragging by his hair. 18 I think two (2) -- two (2) cops there. They 19 were fighting over his hair who got to drag him and his hair 20 was all stretched out. They were dragging him every which 21 way. 22 There was guys grabbing him by his coat and 23 there was still people beating on him while they were 24 dragging him across the ground. And it looked like he was -- 25 he was trying to cover himself but he was just getting beat
1151 and beat and beat and then pretty soon he was just limp and 2 they were still dragging him by his hair. 3 I remember his shirt was coming up and they 4 were still beating on him. There -- there was cops stomping 5 him, they were trying to stomp his head. I seen a cop jump 6 right up in the air with two (2) feet and come right down on 7 his head. 8 They were -- they were doing that stuff to 9 him. And we were just watching all of this stuff. They 10 wouldn't stop beating him. His sister was watching it, too. 11 His sister was right there. 12 Q: And what's his sister's name? 13 A: Gina Johnson (phonetic). 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And she was freaking out. She was 16 watching him. We were all waiting for them to stop this 17 beating and they weren't stopping this beating. They just 18 kept on beating him and beating him. 19 And his sister was watching it all and she was 20 hoping that they were going to stop and then she started 21 screaming, somebody do something. They're going to kill him. 22 Get out there and do something. 23 And they -- they were just beating on him, 24 beating on him, beating on him. Dragging him by his hair, 25 they dragged him right down the road. And they were -- there
1161 was the whole crowd on him -- swarm of cops all over him. 2 And they were just kept on beating him, 3 beating him. And we were all sitting there watching it. 4 We -- it was hard to see that going on. Finally we just got 5 it in our heads that we got to stop this and those cops were 6 backing when they were dragging Slippery down. 7 And they were still in their formation. They 8 were walking backwards. And it was like they were going -- 9 they were backing up to give us a chance to come out, because 10 they knew we were going to come out then. 11 Q: Well, you don't know what they knew. 12 A: Yeah, I don't know what they know. But 13 they backed up anyways. Just far enough -- this far -- right 14 about there, maybe. 15 Q: The police officers backed up their line 16 just to the west of -- I think it's Number 5, the first -- 17 the line that you draw -- 18 A: Yeah -- 19 Q: -- drew up, yes. 20 A: Right in this area here. They backed up 21 and they were dragging Slippery -- they were dragging him and 22 dragging him and dragging him and probably about the time 23 they got about to here -- 24 Q: And by "here" is on Exhibit P-67 you're 25 pointing to the edge of the paved parking lot?
1171 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Yes. 3 Q: That's when we come out, there was 4 probably maybe -- I don't know. There was twenty-five (25) 5 of us or so that were there, but not all of us came out, 6 because there was some women there and some younger people. 7 They didn't come out. 8 But we came out. We came out from like over 9 here there was a spot in the fence you could step over and 10 they come out from here. 11 Q: You're pointing to the turnstile area and 12 to the north of the turnstile area among the fence -- among 13 the trees on Exhibit P-67? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: And we came out. I say there was 17 probably -- maybe -- maybe ten (10) to fifteen (15) of us. 18 We come out and we kind of spread ourselves out along right 19 here. 20 Q: Along the line between the six (6) and 21 the seven (7)? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: In a line running up towards the lake? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Yes.
1181 A: We spread ourselves out and I remember 2 look -- we were looking side to side, like that, because we 3 didn't want to be close to anybody because we knew we were 4 going to start swinging. 5 And we just kind of spread ourselves out and 6 then those -- those cops, that that line that was backing up, 7 as soon as we spread ourselves out, they charged and that -- 8 that's when we got it on. 9 We just -- just tried to get whatever shots in 10 you can get. I think I hit two (2) of them or something. I 11 jumped there for one (1) shot. I remember hitting somebody's 12 shield and I got clubbed up from all different angles all at 13 once. And I jumped -- probably jumped back one (1) step to 14 catch my composure. 15 And then I jumped in for another shot and I 16 broke somebody's shield. And then I got all clubbed up 17 again. And just trying to get as -- as many shots as I can 18 because I figured I was going to get run over too. 19 And then after I got clubbed up again, that's 20 when those -- those cops, they started backing off. And we 21 were just looking around to make sure that they weren't 22 dragging any of our guys with them. And we kind of -- we 23 kind of backed off too. 24 Q: And when, Mr. George, did the bus come 25 up?
1191 A: The bus came out pretty much as soon as 2 we backed up and those cops were backed up too, that's when 3 the bus was coming out, all at the same time. I heard -- I 4 heard the bus fire up and I looked over and seen the bus come 5 out, and those cops. 6 Q: And can you tell us how fast the bus was 7 going when it came out of the Park? 8 A: It was going no faster than walking 9 speed. 10 Q: Yes. And then what happened? Did you 11 observe where the bus went to? 12 A: Yeah. The bus was just moving forward. 13 Because, by that time, Slippery was up around here somewhere. 14 Q: And when you say, Up around here 15 somewhere, you're referring to the spot on East Parkway 16 Drive. Could you mark that with an eight (8), where Mr. 17 Cecil Bernard George was at this point, when the bus started 18 to come out? 19 A: He's about there. 20 Q: And can you tell us -- explain to us 21 where the bus went, and its -- what happened with the bus? 22 A: The bus pretty ran in a straight line 23 right from the gate to where those cops were. And those cops 24 were backing up. And the -- they had Slippery up there, they 25 were still beating on him too.
1201 And I think they had a van over here or 2 something. I can remember seeing a van parked over here. 3 Q: And can you recall what the van looked 4 like or -- 5 A: I think it was like a -- a grey van or 6 something. I can't remember. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: It was gray or something, white maybe. 9 Q: And how far did the bus go forward? 10 A: It went pretty much level with the fence, 11 there, pretty much where those cops jumped over. 12 Q: Okay. So could you draw, on Exhibit P- 13 67, with a dotted line, the route the bus, as you recall it, 14 the route the bus took and where the bus stopped? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And could you just draw in a little 19 square where the bus stopped, please? 20 A: The bus was followed by car 2, and the 21 car followed the bus right -- right behind. And then, as 22 soon as the bus stopped, the car kind of veered off to the 23 right. 24 Q: And the car, what can you -- whose car 25 was it? Did you observe whose car it was that came out --
1211 A: It was Warren -- 2 Q: -- behind the bus? 3 A: -- Warren George's car. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: I think it was an '85 Fifth Avenue. 6 Q: And where did the -- what did the car do? 7 A: It went on the same line as the bus. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: When the bus stopped, the car kind of 10 turned a little bit. I'll just draw a line there. 11 Q: Yes, please. And did the -- did the car 12 continue down East Parkway Drive? 13 A: No. It backed up. There's -- okay. 14 When the bus stopped, that's where they start fire, and the 15 car was right behind at the same time, pretty much, when the 16 bus stopped, the car stopped too. Well, it didn't stop. It 17 shifted into reverse and he started immediately going 18 backwards. 19 Q: And when you say -- when did the -- you 20 first hear a -- a shot? 21 A: Probably as soon as the car started 22 backing up. I guess the -- the car didn't have no brakes on 23 it. That's kind of the reason why he backed up in that 24 manner, because he didn't have no brakes. He slammed it in 25 reverse because the car never really stopped moving, it was
1221 going forward then all of a sudden, next thing it was going 2 right backwards again. 3 Q: And did you see the car come into contact 4 with any police officers or anyone else? 5 A: Yeah, there -- there was a line of cops 6 right here and -- 7 Q: When you say right here, you're pointing 8 to -- 9 A: Yeah, right -- 10 Q: -- along the edge of the East Parkway 11 Drive -- 12 A: Yeah, the cops were all right in here, 13 they were spread out down here too a little bit. 14 Q: Along the side of the road? 15 A: All over the place. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: They were -- they were -- they were 18 tripping over each other in the ditch here. 19 Q: And the ditch you're pointing to is to 20 the south of the figure of the bus and near the number 2 that 21 you drew on P-67; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Then there was cops up here too. 25 Q: And up here is along the -- on the north
1231 side of East Parkway Drive? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And perhaps you could simply mark, I 4 don't know what the next number is, it's Number 9, I believe, 5 where the police officers were on the north side of East 6 Parkway Drive? 7 A: All right, you want me to just draw a 8 circle -- 9 Q: Sure, draw a circle where you -- 10 A: -- where the bunch was? 11 Q: And -- 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Here. They occupied about that much 16 space and there's like a vehicle down here. You want me to 17 draw that -- that grey bus, or grey van? 18 Q: Certainly, yes. 19 A: That's about where the grey van was -- 20 like, that they were all bunched right up there and the -- 21 the car, it looked like it made contact with a couple of cops 22 but, I think those cops were just bracing for an impact and 23 they jumped on his hood. 24 Q: And can you, before we go on, can you 25 mark a "B" on the bus, a "V" on the van, and a "C" on the
1241 car? And, so you saw some police officers on the hood of the 2 car and can you tell us when you first heard shots? 3 A: Right as soon as them cops jumped on that 4 hood, everything just opened up, it was like one (1), then 5 two (2), and then just everybody was firing. 6 Q: And where were you at this point? 7 A: I was probably right about here. 8 Q: And could you mark that with a, number 10 9 I think is the next number...? And so what did you do? 10 A: I was -- I was just watching it. My 11 Uncle Stewart was probably right about here, I seen him up 12 there. 13 Q: He was close to the car? 14 A: Yeah, he was closer, he was probably the 15 closest one, besides who the drivers of the vehicles were. 16 Q: And, so could you mark number 11, I think 17 it is, where Mr. Stewart George was? And, what -- did you 18 observe what Mr. Stewart George was doing? 19 A: I heard -- I think he was banging on the 20 back of the car telling them to back up, their shooting. 21 Q: So then what -- what did you do? 22 A: I just stood there. As soon as they 23 start shooting I thought they were maybe warning shots. So I 24 -- I just stood there, thought they were firing up in the air 25 but then next thing you know, I could feel the bullets
1251 whizzing by head and tugging at my clothes, and that made me 2 look around. 3 I started looking the ground and I could see 4 all the bullets bouncing off the road. I looked back to see 5 if anybody else was getting shot up, and I could see all the 6 bullets hitting the dirt there, sending up little patches of 7 dust. And everybody was just -- they weren't sure what 8 the -- was going on, there were some people that were getting 9 down, there was maybe a couple people laying on the -- on the 10 road. 11 I figured -- I figured I was dead because I 12 was right there, right up close. I just -- I held out my 13 arms, I had a baseball bat in my hands and I just held out my 14 arms because I was suspecting to get shot, but I never did 15 get shot. 16 Because bullets were coming so close to your 17 head it felt like a slap in your face, that -- that's kind of 18 what brought me to the realization that they were shooting to 19 kill. I felt those bullets slapping you in the face. 20 Q: And what was happening at this point with 21 the bus and the car? 22 A: The bus was -- I could hear the -- the 23 gears grinding, crunch (phonetic), because he was trying to 24 get into gear and back up and those cops, they just had him 25 surrounded. They were shooting point blank right at the bus,
1261 right in the wall of the space -- the car. 2 The car -- there was cops all surrounding him 3 and they had him surrounded right at the front of the car and 4 they were point blank right in his face -- bang, bang, bang 5 (phonetic) -- I could see them. I watched it. I look at the 6 bus, see them at the bus. 7 They had those nickle plated mini fourteens 8 (phonetic) or whatever the heck they were. They were just 9 opening up -- ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, (phonetic). 10 There was guys trying to smash the windows. 11 There was guys at the back of the bus smashing windows. 12 There was guys in the ditch tripping over each other. There 13 was cops in the middle of the road. Everybody was shooting. 14 All the cops were shooting. 15 I heard those gears grinding in the bus. rrrr 16 rrr rrrr -- trying to get it to go back up. The car was 17 backing up. I can hear the air coming out of the tires of 18 the car. And he was kind of going backwards in a snaky 19 motion, because his tires were flattening. 20 Stuart was backing up and when the bus start 21 backing up, that's when I backed up, too. Everybody else was 22 backing up. 23 I -- I was watching those cops. They were 24 just -- kept -- they just walked off. It's like -- it was 25 just like they kicked the shit out of somebody, they've done
1271 their -- what they had to do and they were -- they were 2 walking away. 3 Q: And did you hear any -- any commands or 4 anything like that during this period of time? 5 A: No, I couldn't hear nothing over the 6 gunfire except for the bus grinding the gears. 7 Q: And -- so the police officers -- the bus 8 was moving back and the car was moving back and the police 9 officers were moving west on East Parkway Drive? 10 A: Yeah. And people were -- there's people 11 going into the Park there. The bus is backing up. And I 12 heard the bus -- the car was in the gate first, then the bus 13 was trying to get in. I heard a big loud boom, because the 14 bus ran into that dumpster that was there. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: And the whole time, like, they were still 17 firing at this time, eh? You could hear those bullets 18 hitting off the dumpster and you could -- I remember looking 19 in the trees and all the leaves were coming down like 20 confetti because of all the bullets going through the trees. 21 And that's where all the women and the kids 22 were. They were standing there and I -- they were shooting 23 at everywhere. 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: And then they stopped after that. It
1281 kind of petered out. They -- they -- they were gone. You 2 could still see them walking down the road. The bus was 3 trying to get in. And right at that time, out of the corner 4 of my eye, I noticed someone laying on the ground there. It 5 was Dudley. 6 And he was laying there. I pretty much got to 7 him at the same time as a bunch of other people got to him. 8 And I noticed some blood on his chest up here and it was kind 9 of spreading out little by little. 10 Q: And when you say "up here", it's up in 11 his -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- right upper shoulder area? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Yes. Or chest -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Upper chest, yes? 18 A: He didn't look too good. I looked at his 19 eyes and his eyes were glazed looking. They looked straight 20 ahead. They weren't -- he wasn't moving around looking 21 around or nothing. They were just fixed on one (1) spot. He 22 was laying on his back, arms spread out. 23 And right at the same time, everybody just 24 picked him up. I remember him being real heavy. He was 25 limp, floppy like spaghetti. He was hard to hold on to.
1291 We carried him on the other side of the fence 2 and we sat him down on the ground. I remember I -- I stayed 3 there and I was talking to him. I says, Dudley, you got to 4 stay awake. Don't go to sleep, you got to stay awake, try 5 and fight it. 6 And his -- there was no response. His eyes 7 were glazed over and he was looking straight ahead like he 8 never heard me. But he was still alive and that blood was 9 spreading on his chest. 10 He wasn't shaking. His face was kind of 11 sweaty looking. And he was laying on his back and the "OPP 12 Who" car come around. I think Robert Isaac was driving. And 13 J.T. Cousins was there too, and he jumped in the back of the 14 car and kind of helped pull Dudley in. 15 There's a couple others that were helping him 16 put him in the "OPP Who" car. As soon as he got in there, 17 the car sped off, and that was the last seen of Dudley. And 18 then I just went back out onto the road there, started 19 yelling at those cops. 20 I said stuff like, You're fucking murderers, 21 you fucking killed my cousin. 22 Q: And can you tell us -- can you mark on 23 Exhibit P-67, Mr. George, where you saw Mr. Dudley George on 24 the ground? And perhaps you could mark it "D.G.", with an X, 25 and then put beside it "D.G.".
1301 A: All right, he was right around here. 2 Just mark it with "D.G."? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: He was right about there, if I remember. 5 Q: And can you recall -- thank you very 6 much, Mr. George. Can you recall who was -- else was with 7 you when -- before you went out into the parking lot? 8 A: Who was with me after putting Dudley in 9 the car? 10 Q: No. When -- when you're along the fence 11 line, before you went out and -- before Mr. Cecil Bernard 12 George went out and was grabbed by the police. 13 A: Who was with us? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Well, there was me, my brother -- 16 Q: That's Mr. Clayton George? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Like, everybody that was on the side of 20 the fence? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Okay. There was me, my brother, my uncle 23 Judas -- 24 Q: That's Mr. Roderick George? 25 A: Yeah.
1311 Q: Yes? 2 A: My Uncle Worm, Stuart. 3 Q: Stuart George? 4 A: Yeah. My uncle Alward George. J.T. was 5 there. Dudley was there. 6 Q: That's J.T. Cousins? 7 A: Yeah. Marlin -- or not Marlin, but Kevin 8 Simon. I know he was right beside me when we were scrapping 9 it out. Robert Isaac, Doc Stayter (phonetic), Dutch French - 10 Q: Pardon me? 11 A: Dutch French, Dutchie, I think that's his 12 name. Gabe Doxtator. I think Chuckie, I don't know his last 13 name, Chuck, Chuckie Doxtator. 14 Q: Chuckie George? 15 A: Yeah. Chuckie George. 16 Q: Nicholas Coutrille? 17 A: Yeah. Chuck Coutrille. 18 Q: Was Stacey George there? 19 A: Yeah, Stacey George. Jeremiah George, I 20 think, was there. J.R., Gina Johnson, Cecil -- 21 Q: That's Cecil Bernard George? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Darlene Fisher. Wes George. 25 Q: Warren George I think --
1321 A: Warren George. 2 Q: Sherry Brissette? 3 A: Sherry Brissette. 4 Q: Tina George? 5 A: Yeah. Tina was there. 6 Q: And Harley George, was he there? 7 A: I believe he was there, Harley. I think 8 there was a couple other guys from -- from Walpole. I forget 9 their names though. 10 Q: And Mr. -- I think you said that Mr. 11 Roderick George was there as well? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And was Mr. Glenn George there at this 14 point? 15 A: I don't remember seeing Glenn. 16 Q: And of the people that you've just 17 mentioned, how many went out and were involved in the 18 altercation with the police officers? 19 A: There was probably, almost everybody I 20 mentioned except for the women, probably some of the younger 21 people. There's me, Kevin, Simon, Roderick George, Alward 22 George, Stewart George, Chuckie George, Gabe Doxtator, my 23 brother, Kokomo, Clayton George, Dudley, I think that's -- 24 French was there and Buck Doxtator was out there too, and 25 Robert Isaac was there. Cecil was out with us.
1331 Q: I know it's a long time ago; was Mr. Dale 2 Plain there too, as well, do you remember? 3 A: I don't remember seeing Buzz, Dale, I 4 couldn't remember. 5 Q: And Mr. Glen Bressette? 6 A: Yeah, he was there, Glen Bressette, 7 that's J.R.. 8 Q: Was he outside -- oh, Glen Bressette is 9 J.R.? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay, thank you. Now, can you tell me 12 when Mr. Cecil Bernard George went out and was grabbed by the 13 police, did he have anything in his hands, did he -- when he 14 went out; do you recall? 15 A: I think he had a walking stick. 16 Q: And do you know what, if anything, he did 17 with that walking stick? 18 A: I think he might of had a radio in his 19 hand too, at the same time, up to his ear. I think he had a 20 -- he had something up his -- his ear, I think it was a radio 21 he was kind of listen to. I think he was just pointing it at 22 the cops, his stick, not the long end, but the short end, 23 kind of holding it up. 24 Q: And can you describe the stick that Mr. 25 Cecil Bernard George had?
1341 A: It just looked like a stick, a regular 2 stick. It was -- I think he had carvings in it or something. 3 Q: And how long was it? 4 A: It was probably -- this -- this is 5 probably like -- 6 Q: About five (5) feet high? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And was it thicker at one end than at the 9 other? 10 A: Yeah, a little bit. 11 Q: And how thick was it at the -- do you 12 recall how thick it was at the thickest end? 13 A: Probably about an inch and a half. 14 Q: In diameter? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And do you recall Mr. Cecil Bernard 17 George -- did you see Mr. Cecil Bernard George hit any police 18 officers with his club -- with his stick? 19 A: No, I didn't see him hit anybody with his 20 stick. 21 Q: And how long did this altercation take? 22 A: The whole thing, from when the cops first 23 come up to the fence to the time they left, was probably, I 24 don't know, it seems -- seemed like an hour, it seemed like a 25 long time, but it was probably only a couple minutes.
1351 Q: And when you say a couple of minutes, -- 2 A: Just probably four (4) or five (5) 3 minutes. 4 Q: So that it -- all of this -- these events 5 all took place fairly quickly? 6 A: Yeah, it was pretty quick. 7 Q: And, did you have any marks or bruises on 8 you after the altercation with the police officers? 9 A: Yeah, I had a great big lump on my arm 10 there, and a great big bruise across my neck, -- 11 Q: So you're pointing to the left, your left 12 arm in the elbow area? 13 A: Yeah. Yeah. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Just above the elbow there, and a great 16 big, it looked like a goose egg, on the -- 17 Q: And -- 18 A: -- then a great big red mark right across 19 my throat area here. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: And I think I -- I got hit right on the 22 side of the knee and I -- I felt like I was getting hit all 23 over but those are the only marks that were left. 24 Q: And so, then... 25
1361 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Do you recall who was with you when you 4 carried Mr. Dudley George back inside the Park? 5 A: I think -- I think it was uncle Alward. 6 Q: That's Mr. Alward George? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And I think Worm was there and I'm pretty 10 sure Buck Doxtator, too. 11 Q: And Worm is Mr. Stuart George? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Those are the only ones I remember having 15 arms -- like arms and legs to pick him up and I think there 16 was a couple of other people that were kind of -- kind of 17 helping him support his mid-section. 18 There is a few -- 19 Q: Okay, and as far as -- 20 A: -- couldn't remember everybody -- 21 Q: And I think you may have said this, and I 22 apologize if I ask again, was your uncle Mr. Roderick George 23 down at the -- at the Park and on the fence line when the 24 altercation took place? 25 A: Yes.
1371 Q: Yes. And after Mr. Dudley George was 2 loaded into the -- Mr. Isaacs car, the -- 3 A: The "OPP Who". 4 Q: The "OPP Who" car, can you tell us what 5 you then did? You went back out into the sandy parking lot 6 and -- 7 A: Yes. I went down there, back out on the 8 road where the fight was and -- just to see them cops walking 9 away. I went out there, yelling around, telling them what 10 they did and you shot my cousin. 11 Q: And then what else did you do? 12 A: We just yelled around for a while. We 13 hung out on the road there. 14 Q: When you say "we", how many people were 15 out on the road? 16 A: There was probably about -- most of the 17 people that were there. Some people took off right away 18 'cause they were getting wounded out of there. 19 Q: They were getting which? 20 A: The wounded. My cousin, Nicholas, was 21 shot too, in the side -- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Well, he thought he got shot twice. 24 There was a big tear in his side and there was another hole 25 up by his shoulder blades. He might have been in shock
1381 'cause he didn't even look like he noticed it. 2 Q: And -- Mr. Nicholas Coutrille was driving 3 the bus? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Everybody just kind of gathered up right 7 after the fight there and everybody was checking everybody 8 out to make sure nobody else was shot. Everybody was just 9 checking everybody over and a bunch of people went -- a few 10 of us went back out on the road. 11 Some hung around in front of the store. 12 Q: And when you said "out on the road", the 13 sandy parking lot or on the paved road? 14 A: The paved road. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: We were still in the same area. There 17 was some of us on the road, some of us on the sandy parking 18 lot, some of us in front of the store. There was people 19 running the wounded out. 20 And I remember, after yelling at those cops, I 21 came back over 'cause I didn't really know what to do after 22 that. I was kind of running around with my head cut off like 23 a chicken and I wanted to see if everybody was all right 24 myself. 25 I heard somebody got shot and I heard somebody
1391 else got shot and I was just going around to see -- seeing if 2 they were shot and, yeah, they were shot. Stacey George got 3 shot in -- in the foot and he didn't even know about it. He 4 told me that the next day. He never knew he was walking 5 around on a shot heel. 6 Q: Did he -- did he -- did you observe -- 7 did you see his heel? Did it have a wound on it? 8 A: It had a wound on it. 9 Q: Can you describe that wound? 10 A: It looked like a tear or something in the 11 bottom of his heel. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Like something came along and -- like the 14 bullet must have just grazed his heel, there was a tear in 15 the skin. Everybody just hung out the same spot, and milled 16 around. 17 Q: When you say "the same spot" is that by 18 the Park store? 19 A: Yeah. Park store, sandy parking lot area 20 and the -- and the paved part. Hung out there for a while. 21 I got on the phone. I started -- I called 911 and I -- I 22 says to the women on the 911, I says, I've -- I can't 23 remember what I said. 24 Something like, somebody got shot. And then 25 she asked who shot who, who done the shooting or something
1401 like that. Who is shot. And I told her who was shot and 2 then she says, who shot him? And I says, your guys shot him. 3 And the phone was ripped out of my hand after 4 that and everybody's just jumping on there, yelling, 5 'cause -- you know, who -- who are you going to call? 6 Who are we supposed to call? 7 You know, the cops come in there and shooting 8 everybody up, who the hell are we supposed to call for help? 9 I called 911 to give them shit. 10 Q: And when the phone was taken out of your 11 hand, was that one of your group that took the phone out of 12 your hand? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then what did you do, Mr. George? 15 A: After that I just -- I just hung out at 16 the same spot. I remember sitting by the fire there. 17 Q: And the fire was by the park store? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Yeah. Everybody was just kind of sitting 21 around there. Nobody really knew what to do. Everybody just 22 walked around with their heads down, couldn't believe that -- 23 what happened. 24 We were kind of waiting for a word about 25 Dudley. And finally word came that Dudley died in the
1411 hospital. 2 Q: And how did you find out that Mr. Dudley 3 George had died at the hospital? 4 A: The phone that was there, at the park 5 store. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: We -- we were calling around trying to 8 find out if anybody knew anything about it. Yeah, and we -- 9 we got a call, I can't remember, Dudley's brother, brother- 10 in-law or something, we got a hold of him. And he let us 11 know Dudley died. And everybody just started crying after 12 that. 13 Q: And then what happened? 14 A: Then we just hung out, the same spot. 15 And I can't remember who said that but, We're going to back 16 out. Everybody's just leaving the park. I don't know why. 17 I wanted to stay. But everybody left and went back up to the 18 camp, the built-up area, the military barracks area. 19 Everybody just hung out up there, all night. 20 I don't think anybody got no sleep that night. Everybody was 21 just hanging out, waiting around. Because we were still 22 expecting the cops to come back. 23 Q: Come back to where? The -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- to the park or to the --
1421 A: Anywhere. I forgot to mention too, right 2 after -- right after the -- the fight, that's -- that's when 3 the people were picking up the rocks, like, they were digging 4 out the patio stones, kind of getting heavier rocks to throw 5 in case they did come back. 6 Q: The patio stones from the park store and 7 -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- in case the police officers came back? 10 A: Yeah. And the people -- I could see 11 people trying to look for big rocks in the ground and pile 12 them up, there, so they can have a little pile of rocks to 13 throw. 14 And I made some Molotov cocktails. 15 Q: You did? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And why did you do that? 18 A: Because we were -- expected those cops to 19 come back there and do the same thing again. And I didn't 20 want to be left with nothing except a stick in my hand. I 21 just found a beer bottle, put some gas in it. 22 Q: And how many Molotov cocktails did you 23 make? 24 A: Probably about ten (10). 25 Q: And then what else happened?
1431 A: That's -- that's pretty much -- went back 2 there after that, went back down there and the store got lit 3 up. 4 Q: And when did they -- how did the store -- 5 A: Yeah. The store got lit up after we 6 heard Dudley was dead. 7 Q: And why was the store lit up? 8 A: Everybody was mad. Nobody knew what to 9 do. We figured, we're pulling out, we're -- we're going to 10 take something with us, that store, there, I guess. People 11 were mad. They took their anger out on that store. 12 Because we figured the cops were going to -- 13 willing to kill one of us to -- over that park, there. We 14 weren't going to let them have it, their cake and eat it too, 15 I guess. 16 Q: And what happened with the gatehouse, the 17 permit -- the kiosk? 18 A: The kiosk? I don't remember. I'd never 19 seen the kiosk. I don't even remember when that went out. 20 Q: And then, after the store, park store was 21 burned, what -- what did you do? 22 A: Everybody just pulled out. 23 Q: You went back to the army camp? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And when did you go back to the -- do you
1441 know what time it was that you left the Park after the Park 2 store had burned down? 3 A: I don't know, it was -- it was later 4 anyways, it was probably, I don't know, I can't really say 5 what time it was. It was pretty late. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: It was late. 8 Q: And before we go to the next morning 9 on -- daytime on September 7th, during the -- I'd like to ask 10 you a question. During the night of September 5th and the 11 morning of September 6th, did you hear any gunshots in the 12 Army Camp or in the Park? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you hear anything that sounded like 15 gunshots? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And -- excuse me for a minute, 18 Commissioner. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Can you tell me, Mr. George, what the -- 23 when the police came down East Parkway Drive, at the 24 beginning of the confrontation, what the lighting conditions 25 were? Were there street lights along East Parkway Drive?
1451 A: I think there was probably a street light 2 on, way down the road. 3 Q: But not at the East Parkway Drive -- 4 A: I don't -- no. 5 Q: -- and Army Camp Road? 6 A: I don't think there was any lights on 7 around our area. 8 Q: And so it was -- was it dark or was it 9 dusk? 10 A: It was pretty dark. 11 Q: It was dark? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And the whole confrontation with the 14 police, can you tell me again how long you think the whole 15 confrontation took? 16 A: It seemed like a real long time, it 17 seemed like -- it seemed like a real long time, like, it was 18 weird, it seemed like -- it seemed like an hour or something 19 that -- I think they're coming in there like that, come up, 20 do all their manoeuvres, it was probably five (5) to ten (10) 21 minutes. 22 Q: Thank you. And can you tell me how the 23 police officers were dressed as came down East Parkway Drive? 24 A: They were dressed in their full riot 25 gear, helmets, visors, they had big bulletproof jackets on,
1461 they had their shields, they had these gloves on, it looks 2 like they had these pads up here too -- 3 Q: Pads -- pads up their arm? 4 A: Yeah. And they had these -- these, like, 5 it looked like hockey equipment -- the shin pads on their -- 6 their legs, and they went right down to their toes pretty 7 much -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- and right up here. 10 Q: From above their knee down to their toes? 11 A: Yeah. I think it was all -- they were 12 all grey and they each had their gun belts on and you could 13 see their guns, you could see their clubs, you could see 14 their cuffs. I'm not sure if they -- I'm not sure if they 15 had anything on their shoulders or not, I think maybe they 16 did, some sort of pad on their shoulders, maybe something, I 17 don't know. 18 Q: And when you said you told us you made 19 some Molotov cocktails, where did you get the gas to do that? 20 A: Maintenance building. 21 Q: The maintenance building? Did you go up 22 to the maintenance building and get the gas from there? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And did you make your Molotov cocktails 25 at the maintenance building?
1471 A: Yes. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: During the confront -- as the police 6 officers were marching down East Parkway Drive, you were, and 7 shining your spotlight on the police officers? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And when, and I think you said one of 10 your uncles was shining a spotlight on the police officers 11 too? 12 A: Yeah. I think -- I think it might have 13 been Judas that had a spotlight too. 14 Q: That's Mr. Roderick George? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And during the period of the 17 confrontation, I take it you put your -- when you went out 18 into the sandy parking lot and got in the altercation with 19 the police officers, you put your spotlight down? 20 A: Yeah, I just kind of laid it -- laid it 21 on its side on top of the -- on top of my car, and I aimed it 22 in that general direction. 23 Q: So that it was projecting out onto the 24 sandy parking lot towards East Parkway Drive? 25 A: Yeah.
1481 Q: And what about your -- did you see what 2 your uncle, Mr. Roderick George, did with his spotlight? 3 A: I'm not sure. I just remember setting it 4 down and then running out, running, like to the side of the 5 fence there. 6 Q: And did the spotlight -- did the 7 spotlight illuminate the sandy parking lot in part, your 8 part? 9 A: Yeah. Yeah. 10 Q: And when you were out in your altercation 11 with the police officers, did the police officers have any 12 spotlights or lights on their side? 13 A: I thought they -- I thought I remembered 14 seeing a light, it seemed like a big bright light behind 15 them. That's what I remember, it looked like a big light. 16 Q: And did anyone else, do you recall, have 17 lights on your side of the fence? 18 A: I'm not sure, there might have been two 19 (2) or three (3) lights on from our side. 20 Q: And did the bus and car have their lights 21 on when they went out into the sandy parking lot? 22 A: Yeah, I think so, yeah, they did. I know 23 the bus did, I'm pretty sure of it. Yeah, I think they both 24 had their lights on. 25 Q: They both had their lights on? And if I
1491 might, I'd like to show you a photograph, Mr. George. This 2 is a photograph that was marked as Exhibit 42-A for 3 identification, and the -- we are told that this photograph 4 was taken in the maintenance building, it's a photograph 5 provided by the Ontario Provincial Police, taken at 2:51 on 6 the morning of September 6, 1995. Can -- perhaps I could, 7 Mr. Registrar, we could give Mr. George a copy of the still, 8 it's a little clearer copy. 9 A: Thanks. 10 Q: And, can you help us, do you recognize 11 this person? 12 A: It looks like Russ Jewels. 13 Q: Russell, Russ, is that Mr. Russell Jewel? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And who was Mr. Russell Jewel? 16 A: Who was he? 17 Q: Yes. Or who is he? 18 A: He was one of our supporters that -- that 19 come up there, he was hooked up with my Auntie Tina. 20 Q: He was -- so he was in a relationship 21 with your Aunt Tina George? 22 A: Yes. I think so, yeah, I'm pretty sure 23 of it. 24 Q: And where was your Aunt, do you know 25 where your Aunt Tina George was residing during the period of
1501 time you were in the Park? 2 A: She was in this -- the maintenance 3 building there. 4 Q: She lived in the maintenance building? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And do you know if Mr. Russell Jewel, 7 where he was staying? 8 A: He was staying there too. 9 Q: Thank you. Perhaps it would be a good 10 time for the afternoon break. We're going to switch to a 11 different area. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think it 13 is. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mr. George. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This inquiry will recess for 16 fifteen (15) minutes. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 3:13 p.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 3:33 p.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: Order. All rise, please. 22 This inquiry is now resumed. Please be seated. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Mr. George, I would like to take you to
1511 the morning of September 7th, 1995. And can you tell me what 2 happened the -- on the morning of September 7th? I take it 3 from what you told us before the break, that you went back to 4 the built-up area of the army camp, and -- after you left the 5 park? 6 A: Yeah. Everybody just kind of went up 7 there, hung around at the gate. There was a lot of people 8 crying and stuff. I remember Bonnie Brissette coming up to 9 the gate and she had some news with her, some pretty 10 disturbing news, that -- that they shot Slippery in the head 11 once they got him in custody. 12 Q: This is what -- were you there when -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- when -- 15 A: Yeah. She was trying to break it to us, 16 telling us what -- what else happened. Because we didn't 17 know what was going on out there, just what happened. We 18 know what happened, they got Slippery, they shot Dudley, they 19 shot a couple other guys. They left. We left. 20 And we were just waiting around the -- the 21 gate up there and I remember Bonnie Brissette coming in with 22 that news that they -- they executed Slippery. Because we 23 were waiting for word on Slippery too, what happened with 24 him. And I don't know where she got her information from but 25 I guess, you know, Slippery is still alive.
1521 Q: So that their information was wrong in 2 any event? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Thank you. 5 A: Yeah. It just -- it just threw everybody 6 else into another state of -- another state of sadness. And 7 we just hung around, just -- just hanging around. We were 8 kind of waiting for the cops to come back in. Because we 9 could see them down the road still. 10 Q: You could see them down the -- the police 11 officers where? 12 A: On Highway 21. 13 Q: You were at the entrance to the army 14 camp? 15 A: Yeah. I remember seeing an ambulance 16 there too. By the time I got up there, I guess they already 17 left with Dudley in a car. I never seem them leave in a car, 18 but I heard that they took off. And -- 19 Q: And do you know who Dudley -- did you 20 learn who took Dudley -- 21 A: Yeah. I heard it was Pierre and Cully 22 and J.T. was with him and I think they were -- they were 23 trying to get -- I remember Gina running around yelling about 24 her son being shot. 25 Q: That's Gina George, that's Nicholas
1531 Coutrille's mother? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: I think he would -- he'd -- Uga 5 (phonetic) just left by the time I got up there, he was just 6 on his way out. 7 Q: And Uga is... 8 A: Nicholas Coutrille. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: I remember, it was kind of, everybody was 11 going all of the place, there was -- yeah, didn't know what 12 to expect, you could see the ambulance on the highway, you 13 could see the cops right there, you're seeing more cops down 14 further -- 15 Q: So that -- 16 A: -- those cops were right outside the -- 17 the gate there on the highway, Army Camp Road, and they were 18 on 21. 19 Q: And when you were up at the gate, the 20 police officers were on Highway 21? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And were they at the intersection of 23 Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 24 A: Yeah, they were there too. 25 Q: And when you say they were farther down
1541 the road, were they towards Ravens Wood -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- or towards Northville? 4 A: Towards Ravens Wood. 5 Q: And towards Ravens Wood is to the west of 6 the intersection of Highway 21 -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- and Army Camp Road? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Is that yes? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And how many police officers did you 13 observe when you were at the gate? This is after the Park 14 store had been burned? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: How many police officers did you observe 17 in around the intersection of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 18 A: I'd say maybe probably ten (10) or 19 fifteen (15) up close to the Park there, or not the Park, but 20 the -- the gate house, they were kind off, down the road a 21 little bit. 22 Q: When you say down the road, you have to 23 help me, Mr. George -- 24 A: This probably seemed about like about 25 halfway from the gate, where the gate house is, and -- and
1551 the intersection there. 2 Q: The intersection at -- 3 A: Right on Highway 21 and Army Camp. 4 Q: Army Camp Road? 5 A: And they were further down the highway 6 towards Ravens Wood. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: We just -- we just hung out. We were 9 hanging out around the kitchen there. After -- 10 Q: Did you sleep that night? 11 A: I don't think so, no. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: Because I -- I was hanging around the 14 gate and I remember when the sun was coming up there, I think 15 those -- I can't remember, the police pulled out from the -- 16 the intersection area there. I remember those people coming 17 down the road, all those people, supporters from Kettle Point 18 area there, then I guess there were -- there were -- 19 everybody's gathering up over there -- 20 Q: So that you, in the morning when the sun 21 was coming up, you saw a group of people coming down 22 Highway 21 from Kettle Point -- 23 A: From towards Kettle Point Way? 24 Q: From Kettle Point Way, yes? 25 A: Yeah, there was -- there was quite a few
1561 of them, there was a big crowd, they were walking on the 2 highway, walking right down the road and I seen -- they -- 3 they come up to that checkpoint I guess it was, they walked 4 through it -- 5 Q: And the checkpoint was to the west of -- 6 A: Yeah, the intersection, Army Camp and 7 Highway 21. They walked through that and they -- they -- 8 they come right up to the gate there and they -- they came in 9 the gate and it was just -- everybody was happy that they 10 were there because finally we had some people, you know, some 11 people there to hear what happened. 12 Q: And approximately how many people were in 13 the group that came from Kettle Point? 14 A: I'd probably say around -- it looked like 15 about three hundred (300) maybe. It was a big, big group. 16 Kind of -- I kind of felt safer after that, it was like 17 everybody was kind of relieved that we had people there now. 18 Q: And then what happened? 19 A: Then we just start telling them about 20 what happened, everybody -- there was lots -- a lot of people 21 crying, hugging, and stuff, and everybody was burning -- 22 like, there was people burning sweet grass, you could smell 23 sweet grass everywhere. 24 There was a -- there was a gathering. 25 Everyone was there. And we told -- told them what happened.
1571 And we took him down to the park, there. 2 Q: And but did you walk down, did you drive 3 down, or did you walk down as a group? 4 A: I think we drove down. And I think there 5 was a lot of people that jumped on the bus and took him down 6 in the bus. And there's -- there was a whole bunch of people 7 down there. 8 Q: So you went down into the park, down by 9 the -- did you go down by the park store? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: It was already -- there was nothing left 13 of the store. And we showed them where the fight happened 14 and told them what happened. And we seen a bunch of stuff 15 laying on the road. Some broken shields were laying there, 16 some other stuff, things laying around. 17 Q: Was this on the paved highway or on the 18 sandy parking lot outside the park? 19 A: Yeah, it was on the paved part. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: And part of -- some of -- in the sand 22 too. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: I think there was cameras there too. TV 25 reporters were there.
1581 Q: Had they come down the road with the -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- with the group -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- from Kettle Point? 6 A: Yeah. And we were just standing around, 7 talking, telling our story. And while we were doing this we 8 looked down the road there, towards Walligator's (phonetic), 9 and we could see those cops on the road still. They were 10 standing around there, walking around down there. So people 11 just started walking towards them. 12 Q: And when you say "down the road towards 13 Walligator's", you couldn't see Walligator's -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- from where you were? 16 A: No. 17 Q: You were at the intersection of East 18 Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And you saw police officers at the bend? 21 You recall you told us there's a bend in the highway. How 22 did you see the police officers? 23 A: Well, people, they were kind of walking 24 around there, they wanted to check out the whole area. And 25 they got as far as where they could see the cops. They were
1591 still there. And everybody was just walking in that 2 direction. 3 Q: Towards the police officers? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And where were the police officers? 6 A: They were -- they were in their little 7 camp. 8 Q: And where was their little camp? 9 A: It was at a driveway just across from the 10 access point to the beach. 11 Q: And is that a Ministry of Natural 12 Resources parking lot? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And it's quite a large parking lot there? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yes. And so did you go down the road 17 East Parkway -- west on East Parkway with the group of 18 people? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then what happened? 21 A: And we got close -- we were getting close 22 to the -- the cops' area and they were scurrying around. 23 They were running all over the place. And next thing you 24 know, they start forming two (2) lines of officers. They 25 were going to shoot us again.
1601 Q: Well, you don't know what they were going 2 to do but just tell us -- 3 A: Well, they were doing a firing squad 4 setup. 5 Q: You tell us -- tell us what -- what they 6 did. 7 A: They were running around and they started 8 forming up two (2) lines, kind of -- 9 Q: And -- 10 A: -- on the side of the road there, in 11 front of their -- their parking lot. 12 Q: So that the officers were on the south 13 side of East Parkway Drive, on the parking -- on the edge -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- of the parking lot? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And the group of -- the group of people 18 from Kettle Point and the occupiers were on East Parkway 19 Drive? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And the police officers, how far in the 22 parking lot were the -- the two (2) lines of police officers? 23 A: They were just off the side of the road, 24 pretty much on the road. 25 Q: And --
1611 A: Half on the road, half on the sand. 2 Q: Were they across the road? 3 A: No. They were kind of -- kind of half -- 4 half of them were on the sand and half of them were on the 5 pavement. 6 Q: And so you saw the police officers drop 7 into two (2) lines? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: There was one -- the first row was down 11 on one (1) knee. And they had their nickle-plated rifles up 12 and ready to go. And there was another row behind them with 13 their rifles ready to go. And we just walking towards them 14 and -- 15 Q: And how many police officers were in this 16 two (2) line? 17 A: There was probably maybe ten (10). 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: Ten (10) to fifteen (15). And there was 20 all kinds of cops behind them, they were running around 21 still. There -- there was cars leaving, a couple of them. 22 They weren't all leaving, but -- 23 Then the -- we had the -- the TV recorder 24 guys, they were coming up the side, they were in front, they 25 just come walking up the side there and as soon as those
1621 cops, they seen those cameras, they just split, everybody was 2 running around, they were tripping over each other. 3 They were going nuts, they were hysterical, 4 they were trying -- they were -- they were -- they were going 5 nuts. 6 Q: So that when the police officers in the 7 two (2) lines then dispersed? 8 A: Yeah, they dispersed just like, poof, 9 they were like, they were gone. 10 Q: And, in the group of people marching down 11 the road, can you tell us what the -- who was in the crowd? 12 Was it just men, or was it -- 13 A: Oh, it was everybody, everybody, men, 14 women, children, old people. There was even like, there was 15 White people there too, supporters and stuff and TV 16 reporters. 17 There was a lot of people there, there was 18 people from Kettle Point, there was people from Stony Point, 19 other people from Wapole, Wansee (phonetic), Bucktown 20 (phonetic), Oneida, all over the place. There were -- there 21 were -- everybody was gathering up. 22 Q: And, so you were at the Ministry of 23 Natural Resources Parking Lot and the police officers are 24 leaving, the police officers were leaving, and where was your 25 group, on the -- on the roadway?
1631 A: Yeah, we were on the roadway, we just 2 kept walking in and those cops start -- they start leaving 3 and, they just all left. 4 Q: And then what did you and your group do? 5 A: We started -- I started clubbing up that 6 ambulance that was there. I looked inside there and I 7 noticed a bunch of stuff that was in there. 8 Q: And you said, just, let's take this one 9 step at a time. The -- you -- you went into the Ministry of 10 Natural Resources Parking Lot and on this copy of the -- can 11 you point out with your laser, there appears on this copy of 12 the map, the Super Text Map 1002409, page 13, that there's an 13 item, it says TOC Parking, and an "X". Does that appear to 14 be to you where the parking lot was? 15 A: Yeah, it looks about right. 16 Q: And, what did you, when you came up to 17 the Ministry of Natural Resources Parking Lot, other than the 18 police and the police cars, what did you observe in the 19 parking lot? 20 A: There was a trailer, like a big trailer, 21 and had a transport truck that was hooked up to it. 22 Q: And what was -- was there any writing on 23 the trailer? 24 A: What did it say? Saint -- I think -- I 25 think it said St. John's Ambulance on the side of it.
1641 Q: And what else was in the parking lot? 2 A: There was a van with St. John Ambulance 3 on it, there was -- it looked like an ambulance, and there 4 was a couple of four-wheelers there, and there was a police 5 van... 6 Q: And when you say four-wheelers, do you 7 mean -- what -- what do you mean by that? 8 A: The four-wheel ATV vehicle? 9 Q: All terrain type vehicle? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: The small ones? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: I think there was another trailer or 15 something sitting there. That's about it. 16 Q: And -- 17 A: And -- we didn't -- 18 Q: -- so, what did you do, you say -- you 19 said you were starting to tell me you went up to the -- 20 A: There was a -- 21 Q: -- the St. John's Ambulance van? 22 A: Yeah. I seen that ambulance sitting 23 there and looked in the window there, there was nothing in 24 there to -- there was no ambulance, it was just a cover 25 vehicle. It said ambulance on the side of it, but what was
1651 inside, it was no ambulance. 2 Q: And, can you -- what -- when you said -- 3 can you just simply describe what was inside? 4 A: I took a quick look and there was like 5 this big box with all these buttons all over it, and there 6 was a big phone on top of it, and it just was weird looking, 7 there was a computer in there, and there was -- there was 8 body bags in there, and just a bunch of other stuff -- 9 Q: Well -- 10 A: -- just junk. 11 Q: Okay. When you say that there were -- 12 there was a computer, there was a computer in this van or in 13 the -- in the trailer? Or do you -- 14 A: That was in the -- it was in the van. 15 Q: In the van? 16 A: Yeah. It was -- 17 Q: And -- pardon? 18 A: It was like a, there was a big box, I 19 don't know what the heck it was, it was this great big box 20 with the big bunch of stuff all over it and there was a phone 21 right on top of it. Must have been a satellite phone or 22 something. 23 Q: And you said there were body bags. How 24 do you know they were body bags? 25 A: Look like body bags. They were folded up
1661 and ... 2 Q: Did you open one (1) up? 3 A: No, I didn't open one (1) up, no. 4 Q: And had you ever seen a body bag before? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: You had? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: When had you seen that? 9 A: Seen them on TV. 10 Q: But other than on TV? 11 A: Yeah, I remember being in a -- in a 12 funeral home one (1) time and I seen some body bags in there. 13 Q: Okay. At any rate, these were grey bags? 14 A: I think they were dark blue or something 15 like that. 16 Q: But they were folded up? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And you didn't open them up? 19 A: Yeah, I assumed they were body bags so -- 20 the way that they were stacked up and I didn't know what else 21 they would be. Garbage bags? 22 Q: But all I'm asking you is, you didn't 23 open one (1) up? 24 A: No, I didn't open one (1) up. 25 Q: And you made the assumption?
1671 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. After you looked in the van, what 3 else did you do, Mr. George? 4 A: I just took a look in the van and I just 5 -- we just started beating the hell out of it. 6 Q: When you say you beat the hell out of it, 7 you struck the van? 8 A: Kicked it, yeah. Kicked it. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Yeah. Put a couple of dents in it. 11 Q: Yes. And then what happened. 12 A: There was a couple of other guys taking a 13 couple of shots at it, too. After that those -- those cops 14 they were taking off. They -- they just all left. And after 15 they left, we just kind of -- we took off, too. We walked 16 back down to the Park. 17 Q: Okay. And when you were in the Ministry 18 of Natural Resources parking lot, was the van -- the St. 19 John's Ambulance van on the east or west side of the parking 20 lot? 21 A: It was on the west side. 22 Q: The west side? And the trailer, was it 23 on the east side of the parking lot or the west side -- 24 A: Yeah, it was on the east side. 25 Q: On the east side? And did you go into
1681 the trailer? 2 A: The trailer? No. I don't remember going 3 in the trailer. 4 Q: And you then left the parking lot and 5 went back to -- down East Parkway Drive? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And what did you then do? Did you go 8 back to the Park? 9 A: Yeah. Just went back to the Park. 10 Q: And what did you do at the Park? 11 A: I think we were just talking with people, 12 just going through the stories again. Just -- I remember -- 13 I don't know how many times I told it -- what happened to how 14 many people -- it's all you could talk about. 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: It's all you could talk about is telling 17 people what happened. 18 Q: And at some point after -- on September 19 7th or after September 7th, did you build a barricade along 20 the entrance to the sandy parking lot? 21 A: I don't think so. It was just the 22 dumpster that was there. 23 Q: Did you block off the sandy parking lot? 24 A: No, none of us did. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. If I might,
1691 Commissioner, I'm going to play a short video that was again 2 provided by the Ontario Provincial Police. And it was taken 3 on September 9th. This actually was not -- it was supplied 4 by the Ontario Provincial Police. It was taken, according to 5 the information of -- provided by the Ontario Provincial 6 Police by a -- a gentleman by the name of Mr. Catton, I think 7 C-A-T-T-O-N. 8 And I'm going to play it and ask the Witness 9 if he recognizes any of the things that we'll see on the 10 video. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And this was taken on 15 September 9th, 1995. 16 17 (VIDEO PLAYING) 18 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, the Gremlins have 20 got me again. Perhaps what I'll do is, if I could just have 21 two (2) minutes, Commissioner, I'll just -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- see if we can get it 24 going. 25
1701 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm going to just reboot 4 the computer it'll take two (2) minutes, Commissioner. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Perhaps, Mr. George, we'll forget about 10 this particular video for the time being. When you were in 11 the parking lot on the morning of September 7th, did you pick 12 anything up? 13 A: Yeah. I picked up a -- a shell. Yeah. 14 I must have been a -- either a nine (9) mill or a forty (40). 15 I think I picked up two (2) of them. 16 Q: And did you pick up anything else? 17 A: I picked up a -- a plastic box. I had it 18 with me yesterday, I forgot it today though. 19 Q: And what was the plastic box? 20 A: I thought it was a casing catcher or 21 something. Because when we went down there to see the scene, 22 we -- there was -- there wasn't that many casings there. 23 Like there, for how many bullets they were shooting, there 24 wasn't that many casings on the ground. 25 I -- I figured it was a casing catcher or
1711 something. 2 Q: And that was on the morning of September 3 7th? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And did you look for -- on the evening of 6 September 6th, did you look -- had you looked for casings? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. And so you picked up one (1) 9 casing and did you pick up and -- in this plastic -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- object? 12 A: There was two (2) casings. 13 Q: Pardon me? Two (2) casings? 14 A: Two (2) casings, yeah. 15 Q: Sorry. And anything else? 16 A: No, not me. There's -- I seen other 17 people with stuff, though. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Broken shields and, I think, one (1) guy 20 had, I think, a broken shield and somebody's helmet. Oh 21 yeah, I found -- I found -- I did find a -- a disc, a 22 computer disc. 23 Q: And where did you find that? 24 A: That was just on the road. 25 Q: Yes.
1721 A: And I found a watch band, somebody's 2 watch band. That was about it. 3 Q: And did any -- did anyone take anything 4 from the Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot? 5 A: Not at the time. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: Well -- somebody -- 8 Q: When you say not at the time -- 9 A: -- found a pair of pants. Somebody 10 found -- one (1) of those cops, they were running so fast, he 11 ran out of his own pants, left them on the road. 12 Q: And that was on September 7th? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And did you pick up some things from the 15 Ministry of the -- Natural Resources parking lot later? 16 A: Did I pick anything up? 17 Q: Did you take anything from there? 18 A: Oh, I took some four (4) wheelers. 19 Q: The ATVs? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And anything else? 22 A: No, not me personally. 23 Q: And did you -- eventually return the four 24 (4) wheelers? 25 A: Yeah.
1731 Q: And when did you do that? 2 A: After they said that no one would get 3 charged if we returned the stuff. 4 Q: And the -- as a result of the events of 5 September 4th to 6th and 7th, were, in fact, you charged with 6 certain offences? 7 A: Yeah, I got charged with like assaulting 8 an officer, possession of a piece of wood and ... 9 Q: I understand you were convicted of 10 possession of property obtained by crime under five thousand 11 dollars ($5,000). Do you recall that? That was in Sarnia in 12 January 1996. 13 A: I don't remember that. 14 Q: And you were sentenced to seven (7) days 15 in jail. Does that assist? 16 A: I remember I got arrested one (1) time, 17 when I was in Court. Me and my uncle Stuart got arrested at 18 the same time. We were going to Court that day, too. I'm 19 not even sure what it was over. 20 Q: And do you recall being convicted of 21 mischief with respect to the van, the St. John's ambulance 22 van? 23 A: Yeah. I think I got charged with that. 24 Q: And you pleaded guilty to that? 25 A: I think so, yeah.
1741 Q: And were fined seventy-five dollars 2 ($75). 3 A: Yeah, I think that. 4 Q: And you were also -- I think I asked you 5 yes -- yesterday I asked you about the incident with respect 6 to the flare or the -- the -- 7 A: Yeah, I got charged with that. 8 Q: You got charged and you were convicted of 9 assault with respect to that, is that not correct? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And another charge of assaulting a police 14 officer was withdrawn? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And after the -- can you describe the 17 relationship between you and the Ontario Provincial Police 18 prior to the events of September 4th, 1995. How would you 19 generally describe your relationships with the Ontario 20 Provincial Police with respect to your interaction with them? 21 A: Before September 6th? I don't know. 22 They probably just ... 23 Q: Before the events of September 4th, 5th, 24 and 6th. 25 A: Yeah. I just stayed out of their way
1751 pretty much, if I could. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I might have got in trouble here and 4 there over the years but I tried to stay out of their way. 5 Q: And one (1) last question. What do you 6 think you would have done differently with respect to the 7 events of September 4th, 5th, and 6th? Is there anything you 8 would have done differently today, having seen what happened? 9 A: Anything I would have done differently, I 10 would have had a camera to -- I wished I had a camera there 11 that night. It would be a different story today if we had a 12 camera there. Someone should have had a camera. Well, we're 13 going to have to invest in one. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: A camcorder. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 17 Thank you, Commissioner. Those are my 18 questions for Mr. George. If I get this video going before 19 we start the cross-examination, I might show that, but 20 subject to that, I'm finished my questions. 21 22 (WITNESS RETIRES) 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 What do you think, Mr. Orkin, are you first
1761 up? Yes, Mr. Ross? 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I think 3 that this witness has had two (2) long days, and if we can 4 get the video going, I think the -- the work by Mr. Millar. 5 Otherwise, the -- I think the cross-examination should start 6 tomorrow. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you're 8 probably right. Why don't we do a bit of a canvass around 9 the room to get some idea of who might be cross-examining and 10 how long they might be, while you try to get the -- the video 11 working. Is that all right? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Certainly. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then we 14 adjourn for the day. We don't actually start with any cross- 15 examination. Again, I would appreciate it if you would 16 assist with respect to how many people might be interested in 17 cross-examining this witness. And if so, how long you 18 anticipate you might be. Mr. Orkin...? 19 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, somewhere 20 between an hour and an hour and a half. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Will you assist 22 me, Ms. Vella, in marking this down? An hour to an hour and 23 a half. Thank you very much. Mr. Rosenthal...? 24 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Perhaps less. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps less.
1771 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: A similar estimate. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Similar 3 estimate. Yes, Mr. Eyolfson? 4 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Maybe twenty (20) 5 minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 7 minutes. On behalf of -- 8 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Chiefs of Ontario. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Chiefs of 10 Ontario, Mr. -- Mr. Horton. 11 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Twenty (20) minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. Mr. 13 George...? 14 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Fifteen (15), twenty 15 (20) minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 Anybody else anticipate that they might be cross-examining 18 this witness? Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, Mr. 20 Commissioner. An hour to an hour and a half. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Mr. 22 Roland...? 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. I expect I'll be 24 almost half a day, maybe a little more. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. On
1781 behalf of -- yes? 2 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Approximately an hour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Approximately an 4 hour on behalf of Mr. Harris. On behalf of the Coroner? 5 MR. AL O'MARRA: Approximately fifteen (15) 6 minutes, Mr. Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Sulman, on 8 behalf of Mr. Beaubien? 9 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Twenty (20) minutes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 11 minutes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's it? 16 Okay. Can you get the equipment working, Mr. --- 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- not going to work 20 today, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Maybe 22 you'll have some luck later on. I do think it's been a long 23 day, and you had a difficult day. And I think this would be 24 a good time to adjourn for the day and we'll reconvene 25 tomorrow morning.
1791 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Ross -- before we 2 leave -- Mr. Ross, how long do you -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I forgot to 4 ask Mr. Ross -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- you might be in re- 6 examination -- or in cross-examination, excuse me. 7 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Cross-examination, maximum 8 forty (40) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. And, 11 Commissioner, we'll start tomorrow on -- being Thursday, at 12 9:00. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And finish at 14 3:30. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And finish at 3:30. Is 16 that okay, Mr. George? 17 THE WITNESS: Sounds good. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. So thank you 19 very much, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you all 21 very much. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mr. George. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, Mr. 24 George. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At nine o'clock tomorrow
1801 morning. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Nine o'clock 3 tomorrow. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Did everybody hear that? 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 6 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, October 21st, at 9:00 7 a.m. 8 9 --- Upon adjourning at 4:16 p.m. 10 11 12 Certified Correct 13 14 15 16 17 _______________________ 18 Dustin Warnock 19 Court Reporter 20 21 22 23 24 25