11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 October 19th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 Exhibit page 6 4 5 ABRAHAM DAVID ALVIN GEORGE, Sworn, 6 7 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 7 8 9 10 11 Certificate of Transcript 188 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-63 Copy of Exhibit 40, marked by 4 Mr. Abraham David George. 34 5 P-64 Video of Helicopter Surveillance 62 6 P-65 July 10th surveillance video, 7 CD-ROM, from OPP. 84 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Our next witness is 11 David George, who's at the Witness Table. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning, Mr. George. 14 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 15 16 ABRAHAM DAVID ALVIN GEORGE, Sworn: 17 18 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Mr. George, I understand you were born 20 on November 8th, 1970. Is that correct? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And you were -- your parents are 23 Sandra Lundehn -- that's L-U-N-D-E-H-N and Axel 24 (phonetic) Lundehn? 25 A: Yeah, he's my stepfather.
81 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: He's my stepfather, Axel. 3 Q: Mr. Axel Lundehn's your stepfather 4 and your birth father is Mr. Clayton George? 5 A: Yeah. Yes. 6 Q: And you have three (3) siblings? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Clayton George is one (1). 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Michael George? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And Tenille George? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And are you the oldest? 15 A: No, I'm the second oldest. 16 Q: The second oldest? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Who's the oldest? 19 A: Clayton. 20 Q: And how old's Clayton? 21 A: He's about thirty-four (34). He's a 22 year and a half older than I am. 23 Q: Okay. And Michael? 24 A: He's -- I think he's twenty-six (26). 25 Q: And Tenille, the youngest?
91 A: Yeah, she's about twenty-five (25). 2 Q: Twenty-five (25)? And you, as I 3 understand it, are a second cousin of Dudley George? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And can you describe how the 6 relationship -- how you become second cousin? 7 A: Well, him and my Mom are first 8 cousins, 'cause Dudley's dad and my grandpa were 9 brothers. 10 Q: And your grandfather that you're 11 speaking of is Abraham George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that's your maternal grandfather? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And Abraham George was married to a 16 Muriel George who was your maternal grandmother? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And Abraham George is also known as 19 Hamster, is that correct? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And we've heard Mr. Abraham George 22 referred to by Mr. Simon as Hamster? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And your paternal grandparents were 25 Alvin George and Grace Madawaab.
101 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Spelled M-A-D-A-W-A-A-B? Is that 3 correct? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And you -- your common-law wife is 6 Michelle Clarke (phonetic)? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you have four (4) children? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And can you tell me the names and the 11 ages of your children? 12 A: Jake, he's the oldest. He's my -- 13 he's a step-son. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Now, he's about -- he's about eleven 16 (11). 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: And then there's Walker. He's the 19 second oldest. He's my first. He's about ten (10). 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: And then I got a daughter, Chanota 22 (phonetic). She's -- she's about three (3). And I got a 23 little baby called Elwood (phonetic) and he's just over a 24 year. 25 Q: Okay. And as I understand it, you're
111 presently residing at the site of the -- at the Army 2 Camp? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And can you tell me where you grew up 5 when you were -- when you were a child? Where did you 6 live? Did you live at Kettle Point or? 7 A: I kind of moved all over the place. 8 I was born in the States, there, Fort Louis Army Base, so 9 we kind of moved around. 10 Q: And was your step-father or your 11 father in the army, US Army? 12 A: Yeah, yeah. He was in the US Army. 13 Q: And was that your father? 14 A: Yeah, yes. He went over to Vietnam, 15 come back, still alive. He's living up in Saugeen now. 16 Q: Pardon me? 17 A: He's living in Saugeen Reserve. 18 Q: Okay. And so after you left -- how 19 long did you live in the United States? 20 A: 'Til I was about three (3) or so, 21 maybe two and a half (2 1/2). 22 Q: And then where did you move to? 23 A: We moved -- we moved around in the 24 States a little bit, maybe -- down in Texas. Lived there 25 for a while.
121 Q: That was when your father was still 2 in the -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- Army? 5 A: Yeah. And then after that, I guess 6 they -- they separated and my Mom brought us back here to 7 Canada and we lived over here for a while at my grandpa's 8 place and then moved around a little bit. 9 Like we lived in Thedford for a couple of 10 months and then she met my -- my step-dad and we lived in 11 -- we moved to another place in Thedford. Lived there 12 for -- it must have been a couple of years. 13 Then we moved down to Kettle Point. Moved 14 a couple of times in between, too. 15 Q: And I take it that -- where did you 16 go to High School? Was it in -- 17 A: In Forest. 18 Q: In Forest? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And did you -- I note -- did you 21 finish -- what grade did you finish? 22 A: Grade 12. 23 Q: Grade 12? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And when did you finish Grade 12?
131 A: That must have been about '89. 2 Q: And after you finished Grade 12, what 3 did you do? 4 A: I went to college. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: In Sarnia. 7 Q: -- and what did you study in Sarnia? 8 A: Graphic Arts. 9 Q: And how long were you in -- 10 A: I was in Sarnia for a year and then - 11 - it was a three (3) year program and I went to Toronto 12 for the last two (2) years at George Brown and finished 13 off the course there. 14 Q: And -- so you finished the course off 15 in 1992? 16 A: It was '93. 17 Q: '93? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And that was a -- and so you -- you 20 studied graphic design and became a graphic designer? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And the -- if I could take you back 23 to talk about your grandfather, did you discuss with your 24 grandfather, Abraham George, the Ipperwash Provincial 25 Park?
141 A: Yeah. We talked about it quite a 2 bit. 3 Q: And can you tell us how old you were 4 when you began to speak with your grandfather about it 5 and what your grandfather told you? 6 A: Well, I remember ever since we were 7 kids, he'd always tell us, you know, like but we would 8 never really pay attention because we were kids and we'd 9 be, yeah, okay then we'd take off. I remember though he 10 used to tell us then but -- 11 Q: Well, what did he tell you, Mr. 12 George. 13 A: He'd -- he'd always tell us that that 14 was our land over there. 15 Q: Which was the army camp or the Park 16 or both? 17 A: The whole thing. 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: Yeah. And he used to come down -- 20 when I moved onto the camp there, he used to come down 21 pretty much every day and that's when we really started 22 hanging around. We spent quite a bit of time together, 23 he'd come down, we'd go out and get firewood and stuff 24 for the sacred fire that we had for six (6) months. So 25 we had to get quite a bit of wood for it.
151 And then there was the winters, he'd 2 always come down and check on everybody, make sure 3 everybody's all right. We'd drive around. That's the 4 thing he'd like to do. He liked to drive around and 5 check the whole place out. 6 He'd always -- he'd come across a spot in 7 the bush there and tell me there used to be a road there 8 and I'd be looking and I'd think, I don't know, it looks 9 pretty overgrown but he knew where all the roads and 10 stuff were. 11 And he'd just stop and tell me about 12 things, the people who used to live there and things that 13 he remembers. 14 Q: And so that was after 1993? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And prior to May of 1993 when you 17 were -- when you were a child, can you recall what he 18 told you beyond that the land -- the army camp and the 19 Provincial Park belonged to you, what else did he say? 20 A: I remember him saying his -- his 21 grandpa was -- used to live there in the Park up by the 22 point there. I remember him -- he pointed that area just 23 like almost at the point, right in the Park there. 24 Q: And his -- your grandfather's 25 grandfather was --
161 A: Kimoni (phonetic) 2 Q: Kimoni? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And did you discuss prior to May 1993 5 or -- with your grandfather the any grave sites or burial 6 sites on the army camp or the Park? 7 A: He used to tell me about how they 8 would -- about the main cemetery, how the army used to 9 come in there and shoot the place up. They'd use the 10 headstones for target practice and -- 11 Q: And that was the cemetery on the army 12 camp? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: There's other things like about a 16 chief that was buried sitting up back there so he could 17 watch over his people. He used to just tell me about 18 there's graves that were dug up in the Park. Like right 19 down in the Park. 20 Q: And can you recall how old you were 21 when he told you about this? 22 A: He explained to me a little later on 23 like when I would pay more attention. I start picking up 24 more as I listened to him. He'd always tell me about it 25 though. I remember him telling me when I was a kid,
171 that's kind of how I got it in my head that that was our 2 land over there. 3 Q: And did you talk with your 4 grandfather about the -- about the land and medicines on 5 the land? 6 A: Yeah. When he would drive around, he 7 would stop and he would show me something. Like, he seen 8 something on the ground there, he would stop and he'd get 9 out and he'd pull it out of the ground and tell me about 10 it. 11 Q: And was that after May 1993, or 12 before? 13 A: Yeah, it was after May '93. 14 Q: After May 1993? And I understand 15 that you were an army cadet? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And when your -- when were you an 18 army cadet? 19 A: I was about thirteen (13), fourteen 20 (14). 21 Q: And so that would be 1983, 1984? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And, as an Army Cadet, did you attend 24 at the Army camp? 25 A: Yeah. I was there for a couple of
181 summers. 2 Q: And the -- can you tell us about 3 that? 4 A: Yeah. It was -- it wasn't nothing to 5 really mention about it. It was Cadets, we went in 6 there, done the usual Cadet things, drills and marching, 7 and they'd show us how to strip guns and -- and, you 8 know, how to build lean-to's, whatever, survival kind of 9 stuff. 10 Q: And did you learn anything about the 11 Army Camp while a Cadet? 12 A: Yeah. I remember this one guy, we 13 were sitting there, he was telling us about rifles and 14 stuff. And I -- I always kind of -- I kind of kept 15 quiet, I guess. I mentioned a couple times that this is 16 my land, you know, to a couple -- a couple of Cadets. 17 But, you know, they just blew it off, Oh yeah, you 18 Indians think all the land is yours. 19 And this one guy, he was, I don't know, a 20 sergeant or something like that, he was running us 21 through rifle exercises, about taking them apart, and he 22 started telling Cadets about a story about how the 23 Indians used to come in there and they would hunt and 24 they'd probably be all drunk, and they wouldn't get no 25 deers and they'd get all mad and they'd shoot up the
191 signs, and that's why all the signs were full of holes 2 and stuff; because there was a sign there that had a few 3 bullet holes in it. 4 And he'd talk about Indians. And I -- I 5 listened to that and I knew -- I knew this place wasn't 6 for me. 7 Q: Pardon me? 8 A: I knew Cadets wasn't for me. I 9 didn't like that racism. 10 Q: And did you learn anything about the 11 formation of the Army Camp while you were a Cadet? 12 A: No, no one never really talked about 13 it. No one told me how they'd come in and kicked 14 everybody off the land. I already knew that. And nobody 15 there explained anything to anybody about nothing like 16 that. 17 Q: And where did you learn about the 18 1942 appropriation? 19 A: Probably more -- paid more attention 20 after coming home from school, because I was trying to 21 get my schooling done. Probably my grandfather told me 22 about it when I was younger but, you know, it never 23 really sank in too good. 24 My mom used to tell me stuff. You know, 25 I'd always be up there on the road and stuff, protesting.
201 She'd always bring me out. 2 Q: And when did you participate in 3 protests on the road? 4 A: My first protest was probably about 5 when I was about thirteen (13) maybe; twelve (12), 6 thirteen (13). 7 Q: And can you recall -- can you 8 describe what the protest -- 9 A: It was -- it was -- 10 Q: -- was like? 11 A: -- it was a protest. Everybody 12 carried signs. I made a big sign, big Indian head on it, 13 like on a wooden nickel, kind of thing. And, you know, I 14 made a few more signs up. It was pretty fun making signs 15 up. 16 And we just walked back up and down the 17 road. We had some leaflets we were handing out people 18 that were stopping by. We'd be standing at the corner 19 and people would stop on the corner and ask what we were 20 doing, and we'd give them a leaflet. That's pretty much 21 it. 22 Q: And that, the corner you're talking 23 about is the intersection of Highway number 21 and Army 24 Camp Road? 25 A: Yeah.
211 Q: On the side of the -- on the East 2 side, I guess, on the Army Camp side? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: Actually, we were right on the 6 highway pretty much, on the side of the road. 7 Q: On the side of the road? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And did you have, do you 10 recall, did you have any interaction with the Ontario 11 Provincial Police during your protests? 12 A: Yeah. They -- they'd just come up 13 and asked us how we were doing. It was -- they weren't 14 friendly or anything like that. I don't know why, just 15 different, but I was young, I remember that. Cops, maybe 16 one (1) car pulled up, asked us how we were doing, and 17 then he left. 18 Q: And then -- did you participate in 19 more than one (1) protest? Can you tell us how many? 20 A: There's probably a couple. I 21 remember making the signs up for that one, the Indian 22 head. And, hmm hmm, I remember going to other things too 23 when I was younger. 24 Q: Can you tell us about those? 25 A: I just remember running around and
221 seeing everybody holding signs and talking -- like a 2 gathering-type of thing. It's probably when you were a 3 kid. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: It's just like -- kind of hard to tell 6 from pow wow or protest. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: Just a lot of people. 9 Q: -- I understand as well that you, as a 10 young person, visited the provincial Park? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And did you camp there or simply go as 13 a day visitor? 14 A: Well, I guess I was an intruder 15 because I got picked up and hauled out of there and 16 charged. Well, I was -- yeah -- I was -- wasn't a 17 visitor -- well, kind of a visitor. I was just walking 18 around. 19 Q: When did this -- when did this 20 incident happen? 21 A: It was probably when I was about, 22 maybe fifteen (15). 23 Q: And can you tell us about that 24 incident? 25 A: Well, I was with a --a friend there
231 and were drinking and we just went walking through the 2 camp, probably looking for some girls, and we got picked 3 up by the M&R guys and took to the -- the edge of the 4 Park there and I asked him about -- you know -- this is 5 my land, you can't kick me off. 6 And they says, Yeah -- yes I can, this is 7 my job. I got to kick people off that -- that aren't 8 supposed to be here and I asked to see a sign about, you 9 know, no visitors after a certain hour. He took me to a 10 street sign, I think it was a parking zone sign. He 11 said, There you go, and then he took off. 12 He -- he didn't pull up too close to it, 13 but he tried to pass that sign off as the sign that he 14 was telling me about, about not coming in there and I -- 15 I got charged a little bit and let -- let go at the edge 16 of the camp. Yeah. 17 Q: And did you visit the Park more than 18 once? 19 A: Yeah, I used to walk through there 20 quite a bit, like even after the Park was closed I'd go 21 through there. I'd go snooping around. I used to go 22 right into the army camp, too, as far back as probably 23 twelve (12), thirteen (13). 24 Even before I was a cadet I used to go 25 through there and just check the place out, because --
241 like, I remember Grandpa told me that was my land. You 2 know, I'd take it upon myself to go check it out once in 3 a while, you know, probably a couple of times a year. 4 One (1) time we rode in there -- me and a friend and -- 5 Q: How did you -- when you rode in there, 6 how did you ride in? 7 A: I think we -- we jumped over the 8 fence. We threw our bikes over the fence and we were 9 riding up the road and we wanted to go in through the 10 bush because we figured we'd get kicked out if we were 11 seen riding bikes on the road, so we threw our bikes in 12 the bushes and we took off through the bush and we walked 13 right through to the other side. 14 We walked down through the dunes and, you 15 know, it was an all-day excursion and I even remember 16 playing games with the army guys. I don't know if they 17 were militia or regular infantry or whatever, you know, 18 but we seen these army guys running through the bushes 19 and we used to play games with them, eh? Just to test 20 their skills. 21 We'd sit there and throw rocks and, you 22 know, they wouldn't know where -- what's going on. 23 They'd have all their people running around trying to 24 look for whoever's throwing rocks and we even let 25 ourselves be seen so they'd know who was there.
251 You know, they -- they could never catch 2 us, we snuck up right behind them, you know, and then we 3 walked out of the bush to see what they were going to do 4 and they didn't do nothing. They just asked us what we 5 were doing there. 6 I remember I had a stick with me and he 7 asked what that was for and I said, No, it's just to 8 knock bushes out of the way when I'm walking through. As 9 you walk through bushes you get covered in spider webs 10 and everything like that. And -- yeah, he let us go and 11 we walked back to where our bikes were and our bikes were 12 gone -- the army guys got them, so we had to walk all the 13 way home. 14 Q: And you -- you walked back -- you were 15 on the Army Camp Road side of where -- where your bikes 16 were? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And you were living at Kettle Point 19 then? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Did you ever get your bikes back? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did you back in to the army camp prior 24 after becoming a cadet after that? 25 A: Yeah. That wouldn't stop me.
261 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: That wouldn't stop me, I knew we were 3 risking our bikes. 4 Q: And your grandfather, Abraham George, 5 owned land on the army camp. Is that correct? 6 A: Yeah, he was -- he was born there. He 7 must have been about twenty-two (22) when they come and 8 removed him. 9 Q: Do you -- and do you know if he owned 10 -- had received any land when he left in 1942 or did not? 11 A: I'm not sure. I know the -- the 12 place where they used to lived. He's -- he told me that. 13 It was right beside the firing ranges where his land was. 14 Q: Okay. And did your grandfather tell 15 you about the appropriation when you were a child? 16 A: No, I don't remember nothing about 17 that, probably -- probably 'til about maybe Grade 8 18 maybe. 19 Q: When you were in Grade 8, your -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- grandfather told you about that? 22 A: Yeah. He'd tell me little bits and 23 pieces, you know. And then I really got the full story, 24 you know, after '93 when we start hanging out. He'd -- 25 he went into --
271 Q: And I take it that he and your mother 2 told you about it when you participated in the protest -- 3 A: Yeah, yeah. 4 Q: -- on the Highway. 5 A: Yeah, I wouldn't -- didn't remember 6 too much then, like -- 7 Q: And -- 8 A: -- I remember he told me a bit. 9 Q: Before we get to 1993, I understand 10 that, as an adult, you -- I guess when you were twenty 11 (20) or twenty-one (21), got into some problem with the 12 police and the courts? Back in 1991? 13 A: Yeah, there's probably a couple of 14 times. 15 Q: But as an adult the -- I understand 16 you were convicted on January 25th, 1991, of three (3) 17 offences, break, enter, and theft for which you received 18 a sentence of sixty (60) days, care and control over 80 19 milligrams for which you received a fine of five hundred 20 dollars ($500), and two (2) charges of failing to appear, 21 I guess for the first two (2) charges -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- of which you convicted -- 24 A: Something like that. 25 Q: -- and received fifteen (15) days
281 each? 2 A: Something like that, yeah. 3 Q: Is that correct? 4 A: Yeah, there was -- there was quite a 5 bit of them. 6 Q: Okay. Those -- but those were the 7 three (3) times you were convicted? 8 A: Yeah. I remember going -- 9 Q: As an adult? 10 A: As an adult? Yeah I think so. I 11 remember I was in jail there. I done forty-five (45) 12 days, I think it was. Three (3) month sentence. 13 Q: That was -- 14 A: I was going -- 15 Q: -- for these offences? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And between 1991 and September 6, 18 1995, I understand that you had no other further trouble 19 with the police or -- 20 A: '91 to '96? 21 Q: To '90 -- to September 6th, 1995. 22 A: Oh, yeah. 23 Q: You weren't -- you weren't convicted 24 of any offences? 25 A: I don't think so. Just thinking.
291 You say from '91? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: I try not to think about my charges 4 too much. I think I was charged there -- I know there 5 was one (1) time in London that I got charged for 6 something. You know -- 7 Q: But you weren't convicted? 8 A: No, I don't think so. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I went to Court there, but they were 11 having protests and I couldn't get into Court, they 12 wouldn't let me in. So I -- they gave me a phone number 13 to call somebody and I tried to call them about seven (7) 14 times and never got no answer so I just let it go and 15 never heard nothing from it since. 16 Q: Okay. Now, I'd like to move up to 17 1993. How did you learn of the occupation of the Army 18 Camp? 19 A: I was riding down the road on my 20 bike. After coming home from school, I was going to 21 visit my grandpa and I was riding my bike from my 22 parents' new house in the country there and -- 23 Q: And -- 24 A: -- Jericho and Ridge Road. 25 Q: And is that in?
301 A: That's just up the road from the Army 2 Camp. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: About maybe two (2) miles. And I was 5 riding down the road to go visit my grandpa down in 6 Kettle Point and -- 7 Q: And that's your grandfather Abraham? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And I was riding by the camp and I 11 seen all these cars in there. And I was like, what the 12 hell's going on there? And checking it out. And I was 13 riding down the road and then I seen somebody I 14 recognized. So I went in and checked it, asked them what 15 they were doing and they explained to me what was going 16 on. So, I never left since that day. 17 Q: And can you tell us when you went 18 into the Army Camp? 19 A: That was probably near the second 20 week, maybe in between the second and third week in May, 21 sometime. 22 Q: And had you returned from your -- 23 from your course in Toronto? Is that -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: You had just finished your course?
311 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And you've stayed at the Army Camp 3 ever since? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And perhaps if we could just show you 6 a copy of Exhibit P-40 -- which we'll mark as a separate 7 exhibit, Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. 40, is that the number? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, it's not. We're 11 going to give it a new -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A new 13 number? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll be giving it a 15 new exhibit number, Commissioner. I simply want to pull 16 this up on the screen for everyone else. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: I've put up on the screen and given 22 you a copy of a map of the Army Camp entitled: 23 "Ipperwash Military Reserve". 24 When you went into the Army Camp in 19 -- 25 May 1993, where did you stay initially?
321 A: Right on the firing range, kind of 2 off to the side a little bit. 3 Q: And can -- there's a -- 4 A: It's probably -- 5 Q: That's a laser pen, yeah. Could you 6 just show us where on -- 7 A: Right about there. That's where the 8 main camp was. 9 Q: And did you stay in a tent or -- 10 A: Yeah. I -- yeah, I stayed in a tent 11 for a little while. And then, you know, when it started 12 getting worse, my grandpa let me stay in his trailer. 13 Q: And where was your grandfather's 14 trailer initially, in the summer of 1993? I understand 15 it was in one place and then it was moved? 16 A: Yeah. It was -- it was at the main 17 camp, right here. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: And then sometime during the summer I 20 moved it right back to here. I think it was right there. 21 Q: And what you're pointing to is a spot 22 -- perhaps what we could do is, on the map in front of 23 you, Mr. George, if you could mark as number 1 where your 24 first camp -- where you first camped in your tent? 25 A: Can I mark on this?
331 Q: Yes. We have a pen, actually, Mr. 2 George, that would -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- probably be easier. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: It's in red ink. And then, number 2, 7 if you could mark on there where you moved during the 8 summer, back onto the rifle range? And you pointed out 9 on the document 1002409, Page 13, up near to the left as 10 you're looking at it, of the "R" in the rifle range? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Is that correct? 13 A: Right there, right in the middle. 14 Q: And mark a 2 there, please? 15 A: Yeah, I already got it marked. 16 Q: And then I understand you moved during 17 the winter, or in the fall, to your grandfather Abraham 18 George's trailer? 19 A: Yeah, that was right about there. 20 Q: And could you mark as number 3, where 21 your grandfather's trailer was? And that -- your 22 grandfather's trailer was moved to location number 3 from 23 a location closer to Highway 21, is that correct? 24 A: Yeah, it went from location 1 to 25 location 3. I didn't take it with me on the ranges.
341 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: I didn't -- I never took it down to 3 the end of the ranges. I still lived in tents. 4 Q: So, initially, when -- when you first 5 moved on, you camped by your grandfather's trailer? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And did you stay over the first winter 8 1993/1994? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And did you stay over the second 11 winter '94/'95? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And your grandfather, Abraham -- 14 perhaps we could, Commissioner, before we move on, mark 15 the copy of the map that Mr. George has marked up. It 16 would be Exhibit P-63. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sixty-three 18 (63). 19 THE WITNESS: Want me to mark it on 20 there? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, the 22 Clerk will mark it. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-63: Copy of Exhibit 40, marked by Mr. 25 Abraham David George.
351 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: No, he'll -- he'll mark it when 4 you're done, Mr. George. 5 Now, I'm -- can you also point out where 6 Kevin Simon's shed was located? 7 A: His shed? The first one like -- 8 Q: The one that we'll get to in a moment? 9 The one that there was an incident with respect to? 10 A: Yeah, okay. That shed there was 11 located right about here. 12 Q: And could mark with a "4" on Exhibit 13 63 where that was? 14 Now, when you entered the army camp for 15 the first time in May of 1993, how did you get into the 16 army camp, Mr. George? 17 A: There was a gate open. 18 Q: And can you point out where the gate 19 was open? 20 A: Right there. 21 Q: And that was a gate in the fence that 22 someone had opened up? 23 A: Yeah, it was like a gate -- military 24 gate or something. 25 Q: And could you mark on Exhibit 63, the
361 map in front of you, number 5 for the location of the 2 gate? And were there other entrances along Highway 21 in 3 May of 1993 that you observed? 4 A: Yeah, there was another one, it was 5 down -- kind of on this end around here -- the stone 6 quarry is right there. 7 Q: And -- you're pointing to the area on 8 the east side of the army camp closer to what is now 9 known as Outer Drive? 10 A: Yeah. Yes. 11 Q: And the area on the map that's on the 12 screen, there's a -- the stone quarry there. There's a 13 symbol for a stone -- stone quarry? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And could you mark number 6, I guess, 18 where that second gate was on the -- 19 Now, I'm going to, Commissioner, show the 20 witness actually two (2) videos and ask him to describe 21 what he -- describe the videos. These were videos that 22 we will ultimately prove through -- they're from the 23 Ontario Provincial Police. 24 They've been disclosed to us by the 25 Ontario Provincial Police, but this Witness can identify
371 the -- a number of the places and there's two (2) of the 2 them; the first is -- was taken on June 23rd, 1993. The 3 second one that I will show was taken on July 10th, 1993. 4 And the first one has -- the witness will 5 describe this, but just so that everyone can follow it 6 more easily, the -- the car on which the video camera is 7 -- is going along Highway 21 in both -- in both -- in 8 both videos. 9 In the first video at the very end, 10 there's a helicopter video as well. It's -- I do not 11 know, yet, when that video was taken. I presume it was 12 taken in or around June of 1993 because it's on the same 13 CD ROM. 14 So what I'm going to do, Mr. George, is 15 play the CD ROM and we'll try to stop it so that you can 16 describe to us ... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Having a bit of a 21 difficulty here. I may have to -- excuse me, 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
381 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me, 3 Commissioner. I wonder if we could just take five (5) 4 minutes and I'll sort this out? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. Let's 6 just take five (5) in place -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, I think we've got 8 it. Okay. Let's -- we'll start back at the beginning. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Cancel that. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll cancel that one. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: So this is a video from the June 14 23rd, 1993. Can you tell us what that is, Mr. George? 15 A: That's Kevin Simon's ice cream shack. 16 Q: And the ice cream shack was moved 17 onto the Army Camp? 18 A: Yeah. Yes. 19 Q: And when you say it was Kevin Simon's 20 ice cream shack, did he sell ice cream out of that shack 21 at Kettle Point or somewhere else? 22 A: Yeah. Yeah. He sold ice cream out 23 of his front yard or something. 24 Q: At Kettle Point? 25 A: Yeah in Kettle Point.
391 Q: And do you know when the shack was 2 moved to the army camp? 3 A: I think it was sometime in '93 there. 4 Probably near the end of May maybe. 5 Q: And where was the ice cream shack 6 located? 7 A: It was -- it was moved all over the 8 place. 9 Q: Okay. And what was it used for? 10 A: Just for sitting in, you know. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: People would have like coffees or 13 whatever, you know. If it was raining people could sit 14 in there. 15 Q: So we'll move on. And I can see it 16 was on wheels, the ice cream shack? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And it looks like this -- the vehicle 19 is proceeding west along Highway 21? 20 A: Yeah. It's going west. 21 Q: And do you recognize this camp? 22 A: Yeah, that would be Maynard T.'s camp 23 or Pearl, his mom. 24 Q: Is that Maynard T. George and Pearl 25 George?
401 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And can you tell us where that would 3 be located on Exhibit P-63? 4 A: That would be just on the other side 5 of that creek there. 6 Q: And the -- could you mark number 7 7 where the -- that camp was? And so that's on the eastern 8 end of the -- towards -- towards Outer Drive? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We can't 12 hear you, Mr. Roland, unless you come to the mike. I'm 13 sorry about that but. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Perhaps Mr. Millar could 15 help us by having the witness tell us where he's putting 16 7 by reference of the map. There are various locations 17 on the map so we could know where it is that he is 18 putting his -- his number 7. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay, let me -- what I 20 was going to try to do -- what I was going to try to do 21 is -- I'm not technically adept enough to make sure that 22 I can get the map up and the video up back and forth. 23 So what I might do is -- what I will do is 24 after we're finished and Mr. George is finished marking 25 his Exhibit 63, we will go back to the large map and he
411 will point out on the large map where he's putting the 2 mark. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: But I believe that this mark -- mark 6 number 7 went near the number 615 -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- is that correct? 9 A: Yes. Yeah that would be Jericho 10 Road. 11 Q: Yes. And we'll make photocopies of 12 this map once it's -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 14 Falconer's got a question. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Good morning, Mr. 16 Commissioner. I would have stood back there because I 17 just had an administrative question. Is there somewhere 18 we'd find these videos? I apologize, it may be my -- my 19 ignorance but -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. Are 21 these -- are these videos in the disclosure package? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well the videos were 23 in -- they're not -- these videos we have so many of 24 these, these were made available. I sent lists out to 25 everyone and they could come to the office and look at
421 them. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And some parties have 4 and some parties haven't. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So you can't 6 access it I -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He can't access, no. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 9 the answer. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If I could burn DVD's 11 I would have made copies, but I can't burn DVD's myself. 12 So -- but at any rate we couldn't -- we didn't make 13 copies, we have hundreds of DVD's and we just didn't make 14 copies. But we told everyone they could come to the 15 office and look at them. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, let's 17 carry on. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Now, if I could stop there for a 21 moment. The road that's shown on that -- on the screen 22 now, is that still a road? 23 A: Yeah, it's still a road, but it's 24 totally overgrown and it's full of ruts. 25 Q: And it's not passable to an ordinary
431 vehicle? 2 A: No, no. You need a 4x4 or dirt bike 3 or a four (4) wheeler, it's pretty muddy. 4 Q: And that road passes over a creek 5 that's near the Number 615. I take it there's a bridge 6 over that creek? 7 A: Yeah. It's just right over here 8 somewhere. 9 Q: And then there's a road that -- goes 10 on the Map 10002409, Page 13, there's a road that appears 11 to dry -- go north where it's labelled "Grenade Range". 12 Is that correct? Is that a road that's on -- 13 A: Yeah. Yeah, that's a road. 14 15 (VIDEO PLAYING) 16 17 Q: And I take it this is still Maynard 18 T.'s -- George's -- 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 A: That's the bridge. 24 25 (VIDEO PLAYING)
441 2 Q: And that appears to be a tent. Do 3 you know who was living in that tent? 4 A: I think Eugene Rosette (phonetic). I 5 think that's his -- that's where he was camping -- 6 Q: And -- 7 A: -- sometimes in the -- 8 Q: -- is that on the east or west side 9 of the road that's marked on Exhibit P-63 of the Grenade 10 Range? 11 A: That'd be on -- that'd be the west of 12 the Grenade Range Road. 13 Q: Okay. And I take it that building 14 that we just saw was part of one of the ranges? 15 A: Yeah, that was the -- activate the 16 pop up targets that were around there. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: That's where they were controlled 19 from that building there. 20 Q: Okay. 21 22 (VIDEO PLAYING) 23 24 Q: And this camp. Do you know who's 25 came -- do you recognize this camp?
451 A: I think that's Nellie Rogers camp. I 2 think that -- that's about where she was camping at. 3 Q: And Nellie Rogers -- who else was 4 there with Nellie Rogers? 5 A: I don't know. I never bothered -- I 6 never went over there too much. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: It wasn't that big when I showed up. 9 I think that blue tarp was taken down or something. 10 11 (VIDEO PLAYING) 12 13 Q: And where those targets are, can you 14 tell us what that was? 15 A: The targets? 16 Q: Yeah, there were some -- just targets 17 -- I'll just go backwards a bit. 18 A: Oh yeah, that was a small arms range 19 there. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 Q: I'm sorry, Commissioner, the controls 24 aren't that sophisticated on this. 25 A: Yeah, those are the .22 targets.
461 Q: We'll stop that when we get there. 2 3 (VIDEO PLAYING) 4 5 Q: And those were targets? 6 A: Yeah. The small arms fire targets. 7 Q: And on Exhibit P-63, can you tell us 8 in relation to the markings on that map where that 9 location is, the small arms fire location? 10 A: That's right around the transition 11 range. 12 Q: It's -- so there's -- marked on the 13 Exhibit P-63 there's a heading "Transition Range" and so 14 the small arms would be in that area? 15 A: Yeah. It's more under that Sten 16 (phonetic) range. 17 Q: Pardon me? 18 A: The Sten range. 19 Q: More under the Sten range? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Could you mark a number 8 for that? 22 Okay? We'll move on. 23 24 (VIDEO PLAYING) 25
471 Q: And the building that we see in the 2 picture -- the white building -- can you tell us where 3 that building was located? 4 A: That was right on the rifle range. 5 Right at the entrance number 5 there. It's right on the 6 corner there. It's got a little square there. 7 Q: And what you're pointing to is the 8 square on Exhibit P-63 or 10002409, there's a small 9 square and that's where that white building was and is 10 located. 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: That building is still there, is it 13 not? 14 A: Actually, it's silver. 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: It's silver. 17 Q: It's silver now? 18 A: Yeah, yeah, it was always silver. 19 Q: It was always silver? 20 A: Yeah, it just looks white in the 21 video. 22 Q: And that building still remains? 23 A: Yeah. It's still there. 24 Q: And what was that building used for by 25 the military?
481 A: They used to keep the targets, the big 2 targets, that were at the -- that go at the end of the 3 big range -- they used to keep the targets there and 4 other stuff -- supplies. 5 Q: And the big range, you're -- what are 6 you -- when you say, "the big range," what range? 7 A: It says "Rifle Range" right on it. 8 Q: Okay. And there appears to be a camp 9 there. 10 A: Yeah, that was -- that was the main 11 camp. That's where -- the camp that I stayed at when I 12 came down. 13 Q: Okay. And you called that the main 14 camp. Who else was there? 15 A: A lot of my cousins and uncles. 16 Q: Can you tell us their names? 17 A: I remember the first person I seen 18 there was Snail (phonetic). 19 Q: Was who? 20 A: Snail Crane (phonetic). He was 21 chopping wood and that's who caught my eye to bring me in 22 there. 23 Q: And Snail -- that's his name -- Snail? 24 A: Dale, I think. 25 Q: Dale Crane. Thank you. And who else
491 was there with you, was your grandfather in the main 2 camp? 3 A: Yeah, my -- my grandpa, he was there 4 most of the time. Glenn was there most of the time. 5 Q: Glenn is Glenn George? 6 A: Yeah, he had a trailer there -- a 7 popup trailer and my cousins Marlin, Kevin -- 8 Q: Marlin Simon and Kevin Simon? 9 A: Yeah, and my brother, Clayton George. 10 My sister was down for a while, too, Tenille. And Mikey, 11 they were down for, like -- they never stayed through the 12 -- the winters or nothing, but they were around. 13 Q: They would visit in the summer time? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And would they visit you in the winter 16 time? 17 A: Yeah, yeah. They'd come down and 18 visit. Who else was there? I think Glenn used -- Glenn 19 had a girlfriend that was with him there. 20 Q: And that's Glenn George? 21 A: Yeah, and Waldo was there. 22 Q: And Waldo is Warren George? 23 A: Yeah, Warren George. Who else was 24 there? Like, my uncles would probably pretty much be 25 there quite a bit, too.
501 Q: And who were your uncles? 2 A: Elwood. 3 Q: Elwood George, yes. 4 A: And Stewart. 5 Q: And Stewart George? 6 A: Yeah, Judas. They come down every so 7 often. 8 Q: And Judas is Roderick George? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Did they have a -- a place to stay at 11 this camp? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: In -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- June of 1993? 16 A: No. They just come down, we've got 17 to go out and get the firewood and stuff. They bring gas 18 and supplies down. 19 Q: And was Marcia Simon -- 20 A: Yeah, Marcia was there. She had a -- 21 a trailer there. Hmm hmm. Who else was there? There 22 would be all kinds of people there, off an on. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: There could be more people there 25 during the day than there would be, like, say, on --
511 during the weekday than in the night. 2 Q: So people would come and visit? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And some people would stay over, but 5 some people would just come as day visitors? 6 A: Yeah. Like there was people visiting 7 that would stay for a couple days at a time, and would -- 8 just the people I mentioned, those were pretty much the 9 ones that were there full time. 10 Q: Okay. 11 12 (VIDEO PLAYING) 13 14 A: Dudley was -- he was there too. 15 And -- 16 Q: And that's -- 17 A: -- he kind of -- he -- he moved into 18 the trailer beside the silver building there. 19 Q: On the east side of the silver 20 building? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: The trailer, in June of 1993, is not 23 there though? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay.
521 A: I think he was -- I think he was 2 staying in Glenn's trailer. Both of them guys were 3 staying in there. 4 Q: And that was part of this camp that 5 we're just looking at now? 6 A: Yeah. 7 8 (VIDEO PLAYING) 9 10 Q: And that camp is -- you marked, I 11 think, number 4, I take it, on -- 12 A: No, that would be number 1. 13 Q: Number 1? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: There would be people sleeping on the 17 bus too. 18 Q: And the bus that -- in that -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- video, is that the bus that was -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- used in September 1995? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And people were sleeping on the bus? 25 A: Yeah. They would sleep in the bus
531 because I think Glenny's trailer leaked or something. A 2 few people's trailers leaked and people that were, like, 3 sleeping in tents there in the heavy rain, it would get - 4 - everything would just get wet. So they -- they'd stay 5 in there. 6 Q: Okay. 7 8 (VIDEO PLAYING) 9 10 A: We had a couple other people that 11 were staying there too. Lauren Jacobs, he was like a -- 12 a medicine man. And he had a girlfriend with him, his 13 wife. 14 Q: And were they in this camp? 15 A: Yeah. 16 17 (VIDEO PLAYING) 18 19 Q: And the tent that's in the background 20 here, whose tent was that? 21 A: That -- that's, I believe that's 22 Glenny's -- Glenny's popup tent -- 23 Q: Glenn George? 24 A: -- trailer. Yeah. 25 Q: And the structure that we see in the
541 foreground, what was that? 2 A: That was our arbour. That -- that's 3 what was over top of our sacred fire. 4 Q: And can you tell us about the sacred 5 fire? When did they -- when was the sacred fire lit? 6 A: It was -- it was lit before I showed 7 up. I believe it was lit on the first day that they -- 8 they came in. And it went out sometime after the walk, 9 it burned six (6) months. 10 Q: It burned for six (6) months? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And did you participate in the -- 13 with the -- with keeping the fire going? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you are a, I think, called a fire 16 keeper? 17 A: Yeah. Yes. 18 Q: And what was that -- what did that 19 entail, being a fire keeper? 20 A: Just protecting the fire, making sure 21 everyone, when -- when they come in there, they'd come in 22 the right way, over on the East, and they -- they'd walk 23 around the fire clockwise. 24 And, you know, just make sure that know -- 25 know what it is and not to throw garbage or cigarette
551 butts or spit in it, or nothing like that. And make 2 sure, you know, they left the right way. 3 And, you know, everybody pretty much 4 understood that anyways. 5 Q: Pardon me? 6 A: Everybody pretty much understood that 7 anyways. They knew what it was. 8 Q: And we'll come to the March to Ottawa 9 in a few -- in a little while, but it burned until after 10 the March to Ottawa, and that was a -- you said, about 11 six (6) months? 12 A: Yeah. Yes. We always get fire with 13 tools, like an everyday job, we had a wood cutting bee. 14 Q: And what about overnight? Did 15 someone tend the fire overnight? 16 A: Yeah. There was always somebody 17 there. 18 19 (VIDEO PLAYING) 20 21 Q: And the large trailer -- I mean the 22 large tent, do you know who's tent that was or what that 23 was for? 24 A: That was a kitchen that held the 25 stoves and dishes and food.
561 Q: So you cooked in a communal kitchen? 2 A: Yeah. 3 4 (VIDEO PLAYING) 5 6 A: I think that's Clifford's camp. I 7 think he was camped round that area there. 8 Q: And when you say Clifford, you're 9 referring to -- 10 A: Clifford George. 11 Q: Mr. Clifford George? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And on the map that's in front of 14 you, P-63, can you mark with a Number 9 the location of 15 Mr. Clifford George's camp? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And can you describe it for us, Mr. 20 George -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- we'll take you through this again, 23 but -- 24 A: There's a word that says "magazine" 25 there and a little road there. It's right -- kind of
571 right beside that. 2 Q: Right beside on the left -- on the -- 3 A: On to the right -- 4 Q: -- east or west side? 5 A: The east side. 6 Q: East side? And I understand that Mr. 7 George subsequently moved his camp? 8 A: Yes, he went to the other side of 9 that road there. 10 Q: The other side of the road -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- towards the magazine? 13 A: Yeah. Kind of in the bush there. 14 It's where his Uncle Cliff's cabin was situated. 15 Q: So that would be back in the bush but 16 on the left side of the road, magazine. Perhaps you 17 could -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- mark it with the Number 10, I 20 think the next number is. 21 22 (VIDEO PLAYING) 23 24 Q: And do you know who else was in this 25 camp with Mr. Clifford George?
581 A: I know his -- he had a -- Terry 2 George staying there and -- 3 Q: And Terry George is Pierre George? 4 A: No, Terry. 5 Q: Oh, Terry George. 6 A: I think it -- we call him Terry but - 7 - he had a -- he had a girlfriend with him, too, and a 8 son. They were pretty much there for a couple of years. 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 Q: And do you recognize this camp? 13 A: Is that the same one? 14 Q: I don't think so. 15 A: No. 16 17 (VIDEO PLAYING) 18 19 A: That looks like some of the Mannings 20 (phonetic). 21 Q: But you're not certain? 22 A: No. 23 Q: It appears that the -- that was at 24 the end. This is the -- I'll play it because I'm going 25 to mark this as an exhibit, Commissioner. This is simply
591 helicopter footage of the area. We'll have to find out 2 from others when it was taken. I presume it was in or 3 around June 1993. 4 But it does show part of the army camp. 5 At the end you will see a -- now this is all part of the 6 army camp that we're looking at there, Mr. George? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: That's the built up area that's in 9 the screen now? 10 A: Yes. 11 12 (VIDEO PLAYING) 13 14 Q: And can -- do you recognize this 15 area, Mr. George? Is that along the beach in front of 16 the army camp? 17 A: Yeah. That -- it looks like the 18 dunes. I think it's just where our dunes begin and the 19 Park's just over here on this side. 20 Q: The Park's on the right hand side 21 of -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- this picture? 24 25 (VIDEO PLAYING)
601 Q: And in the picture now, you'll see 2 two (2) large bodies of waters. Those, I understand, are 3 the -- what are called the Inland Lakes? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And one's marked on Exhibit 63 as Bio 6 Lake. Can you -- which of these two (2) lakes is Bio 7 Lake? Can you point out with the marker? With the laser 8 -- do you know which one is which? 9 A: Yeah, it looks a little fuzzy there. 10 I think that would be this one. 11 Q: Actually I'd make the -- okay, and 12 the other one is -- there may be more than two (2) 13 actually. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Do you know the names of these lakes? 16 A: No, actually, I'm not the -- 17 Q: But those lakes are on the army camp? 18 A: This one looks like it's -- Outer 19 Drive or something. It's Port Franks, over that way. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. We'll... 23 24 (VIDEO PLAYING) 25
611 A: Yeah, it's Port Franks right there. 2 Yeah, it's right on the edge of the -- 3 Q: You have to speak into the mike, Mr. 4 George. 5 A: That's on the other side of the camp 6 there. 7 Q: On the east side of Outer Drive, Port 8 Franks is? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And this is again the army camp? 11 A: Yeah. The MO dump right here. 12 Q: And the dump is in the centre of this 13 shot? 14 A: Yeah. Bunch of buildings back there. 15 Couple of garages over there. Couple of those half 16 circle kind of buildings. 17 Q: And that's in the centre of this 18 particular frame? 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 Q: And someone has -- oops -- marked 24 Stoney Point Nation in the grass at that spot? 25 A: Yeah, it's pretty neat.
621 Q: That's almost at the end, 2 Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'd like to tender 5 that DVD as the next exhibit; it would be Exhibit P...? 6 THE REGISTRAR: Sixty-four (64) 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sixty-four (64). 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-64: Video of Helicopter Surveillance 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I might -- I need to 12 get a sleeve for it, Commissioner, so I might just hold 13 onto it and we'll officially mark it after I get a -- a 14 sleeve for it. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's all on 16 one (1) disk? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: This was all on one (1) 18 disk, yes. But before we move on perhaps, Mr. George, 19 we'll go back to the -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This might 21 be a good time to take our morning break; it's 11:15. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, sure. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would that 24 be all right? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's fine with me.
631 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 2 break, fifteen (15) minutes. 3 THE WITNESS: Sounds good. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 5 for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 11:22 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 11:38 a.m. 9 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 11 Commissioner. Before we go on, I'll -- I'll get all 12 these people of equipment to operate as they should, as 13 just as we came back in, it shut down, so bear with me. 14 I apologize. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So what we're going to 19 do, Commissioner, is, once we're up, go to the map at 20 document 10002409, page 13. And Mr. George is going to 21 point out with the laser on the screen the location of 22 the numbers 1 through 10, so that everyone can see. 23 And we will make copies of Exhibit P-63 24 for everyone as well. 25
641 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I apologize. It's 4 just -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it just 6 warming up? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no. It has to go 8 through the startup procedure, which -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Startup, 10 that's fine. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- takes a -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- a little bit of 14 time. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: So we'll just make this a little 20 larger, Mr. George. So if you could just point out with 21 the laser pointer the first item -- number you wrote was 22 number 1? 23 A: Yeah. It was right about -- right 24 about there, on the corner, beside that little road. 25 There's that -- this little road ain't there no more but
651 it's pretty much right there. 2 Q: The road isn't there but on this map 3 that's where it was? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Just to the west of the silver 6 building, the little black dot on this map is the silver 7 building that you described? 8 A: Yeah. The silver building's right 9 there. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: The camp, number 1, is right here. 12 Q: And that was your first camp? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And then, number 2? 15 A: Number 2 is where my camp, I moved 16 to. Right there. 17 Q: And number 3? 18 A: Number 3 is where I moved to after, 19 during the winter. 20 Q: And that's where your grandfather, 21 Abraham George's trailer was moved? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And number 4? 24 A: Number 4 is where Kevin Simon's shack 25 was, right about there --
661 Q: And -- I'm sorry. 2 A: -- the west side of the road. 3 Q: 5? 4 A: Number 5 is the entrance to the -- 5 this is -- this was our main entrance, right here. 6 Q: Yes. And then, number 6? 7 A: Number 6 was another entrance. It 8 was over here. 9 Q: And that was on the east side of the 10 camp, near Outer Drive? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: The quarry? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Number 7? 15 A: Number 7 is about there. It's where 16 Earl's camp was. 17 Q: And they -- there's a little creek. 18 The creek runs down to 615, I take it, that's the line 19 that runs up 615 north, and east is a creek; does that 20 represent a creek? 21 A: Yeah. Right there is the creek, I 22 think that's Mud Creek or something. 23 Q: And then, 8? 24 A: Eight (8) is the small arms fire 25 range, just right about there.
671 Q: Underneath where it says Sten range 2 on this map? 3 A: Yeah, there is another range right 4 here too though. I think that one was right here. The 5 one that you're talking about. 6 Q: Okay. And then there was range 7 called the thirty (30) yard range as well? 8 A: Yeah that's another range there. 9 Q: Yes. And then number 9? 10 A: Number 9 is up there - Cliff's -- 11 Cliff's camp. 12 Q: The initial camp and then number 10 13 is where Cliff's cabin was? 14 A: Yeah. He moved over this way. 15 Q: And it was back in the bush? 16 A: Yeah. Just a little ways. Right in 17 the -- on the tree line. 18 Q: Okay. Then going to go to another 19 video. This one, Mr. Commissioner, was taken on July 20 the -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 22 need to speak into the mike, Mr. Millar. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You're right, I do. 24 July the 10th, 1993. 25
681 (VIDEO PLAYING) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We're having the same 4 unknown technical difficulty. There we are. 5 6 (VIDEO PLAYING) 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's pretty 9 hard to operate the equipment and speak into the 10 microphone at the same time. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll try that. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that all 16 right? 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Mr. George, do you recognize any of 20 these people? 21 A: Yeah, I recognize her, that was -- 22 Q: The person on the left? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And who is that? 25 A: That's Terry George's girlfriend.
691 Her name is Edie (phonetic). I don't know her last name. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I don't know who this person is. 4 Q: And do you know where their camp -- 5 the camp that -- this camp was? 6 A: They were staying with Cliff so that 7 would probably be down by number 9. 8 Q: And that -- so that's on the east end 9 -- the western end of the camp? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And this gentleman? 12 A: I don't recognize him. That's Terry 13 up there. 14 Q: The gentleman in the now in the frame 15 is named Terry? 16 A: Yeah. He's like a -- kind of like a 17 medicine man, trying to learn that stuff. 18 Q: And did he -- how long did he stay at 19 the army camp in 1993? 20 A: He was there all the time. He was 21 living there pretty much up until, I think, the winter of 22 '94. 23 Q: And I understand that you had many 24 visitors at the camp, supporters? 25 A: Yes.
701 Q: And can you tell us some of the groups 2 that attended at the army camp during the summer of 1993? 3 A: Yeah, we had all kinds of different 4 people coming down from -- there was, like, supporters 5 from other territories. There was -- there was like, 6 Christian coalitions that would come and bring their 7 support -- a lot of people food and whatever we needed -- 8 money to go places. And they'd offer rides and places to 9 stay if we were at a certain area. 10 And there was, like, the Mennonites, too. 11 They were -- they were -- they helped a lot -- 12 Mennonites. We've even had people come from, like, Peru 13 and -- and as far down as Sydney, like people come up. 14 And I remember one (1) time there was a -- a woman, I 15 think she was from Peru, she was a -- she come up to see 16 us. 17 Q: You'll have to speak a little more 18 closely into the mike. 19 A: Yeah. I think she was a -- a woman 20 from Peru and she come up to visit us and tell us the 21 stories of what's going on in her place. 22 Q: And the -- the supporters would bring 23 you, I think you said, food and money and other supplies 24 that you needed? 25 A: Yeah.
711 Q: And provided you with places to stay-- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- if people needed them when they 4 were out visiting? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And speaking? 7 A: Yes. There was other organizations, 8 too, like Young Peoples -- I can't remember. There's a 9 whole list of them, different, in there --just -- anti- 10 racism people would come down and check it out. There 11 was the CAW -- the Canadian Auto Workers, they were 12 supportive too. 13 Q: And they gave some money for -- 14 A: Yeah, they built all the shacks that 15 were put up for the winter -- five (5) or six (6) of 16 them. They're about sixteen hundred bucks ($1,600) each, 17 something like that. 18 Q: And the Canadian Auto Workers -- the 19 CAW -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- provided that money? 22 A: Yes. They never gave us any money. 23 They -- they went to the Beaver Lumber and they paid for 24 the wood. 25 Q: Oh, they paid for the wood.
721 A: And we just went there to pick it up. 2 I believe they brought a trailer down, too. 3 Q: And this is, again, the camp that you 4 stayed at initially with -- your grandfather's camp and 5 your cousins? 6 A: Yes, that looks like my grandfather's 7 trailer right there. 8 Q: The large trailer in the foreground? 9 This vehicle appears to be moving east on Highway 21 10 towards Northville (phonetic). 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Do you agree with that? 13 A: Yeah. He's another medicine man there 14 just learning. 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: He's another man that's learning 17 there. 18 Q: And that's Melva George that's in that 19 car? 20 A: Yes, that's Melva. 21 22 (VIDEO PLAYING) 23 24 A: That's Jon Jon (phonetic). 25 Q: And who's Jon Jon?
731 A: Some other guy that was around. And 2 he has one (1) or two (2) kids. That looks like Marlin. 3 Q: Marlin Simon? 4 A: Yes. 5 6 (VIDEO PLAYING) 7 8 A: That's my brother Joe Kokomo. 9 Q: His nickname is Kokomo Joe? 10 A: Yeah. Kokomo Joe. 11 12 (VIDEO PLAYING) 13 14 A: People there are building a new 15 arbour there. I think that's what we were doing. 16 17 (VIDEO PLAYING) 18 19 Q: What was the arbour for? 20 A: It was to put over the sacred fire. 21 Q: Now we're back at the other camp, Mr. 22 George's camp. 23 A: I don't know who that person is. 24 25 (VIDEO PLAYING)
741 Q: Do you recognize this camp? 2 A: Yeah, that's the -- Maynard T.'s 3 camp. 4 Q: Maynard T.'s camp again, was located 5 where? 6 A: Number 7. 7 Q: Number 7, thank you. 8 9 (VIDEO PLAYING) 10 11 Q: Whoops. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: I apologise to everyone, 16 Commissioner. 17 18 (VIDEO PLAYING) 19 20 Q: And this building here that you can 21 see on the right-hand side; do you recognize that 22 structure? We'll come to it again. 23 A: That looks like our argument hall. 24 Q: And can you tell us what the argument 25 hall --
751 A: That's where -- 2 Q: -- refers to? 3 A: -- we had all our meetings and stuff. 4 Whenever the community came together and we needed to 5 talk about something. That's the first building that we 6 built there. 7 Q: And can you tell us where the 8 argument hall is located on Exhibit P-63? And we could 9 perhaps mark it with number 11, please. 10 A: There's a little black dot right on 11 here beside the transition range. There's a cement pad 12 there. That's probably what that little black dot 13 represents. That's -- we just built on top of that 14 cement block -- cement pad. 15 Q: There's -- what -- there's a dot on 16 10002409 just to the left of the -- what appears to be a 17 road leading up on the left hand side of the transition 18 range and that is where you believe the argument hall was 19 built? 20 A: Yes. 21 22 (VIDEO PLAYING) 23 24 Q: And the steeple that we see in the 25 picture now, what was that for?
761 A: That was to put on top of that 2 building so it would become a sanctuary so the army guys 3 wouldn't burn it down, hopefully. 4 Q: And you were concerned about that? 5 A: Yeah. Because the army guys were 6 going around slashing people's tents up and stealing 7 flags and stabbing tires and -- 8 Q: And ultimately the -- the cross and 9 the steeple was removed from the building? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And when was it removed from the 12 building? 13 A: Probably the winter of '94, yeah. 14 15 (VIDEO PLAYING) 16 17 Q: Did you do that sign? 18 A: Yes. I didn't -- I never designed it 19 but I repainted it. I just took a picture off of a 20 envelope logo and painted it on there. 21 Q: You painted it on there? And this is 22 the argument hall again? 23 A: Yes. 24 25 (VIDEO PLAYING)
771 A: I think that's Rose Manning's car. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: I think that's Rose Manning's car. 4 It looks like one of my old cars. 5 6 (VIDEO PLAYING) 7 8 Q: Do you recognize the person with 9 binoculars? 10 A: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I do. I don't 11 recall her name, though. Justine or something like that. 12 Q: And this camp was Rose -- the Manning 13 family camp -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- and can you tell us where it was 16 in relation to the other places on the army -- on this 17 part of the army camp? 18 A: Yeah. They were right behind the 19 stone quarry down by Number 6 there, just behind that -- 20 that... 21 Q: The symbol that's on the -- on the 22 right hand side of the Exhibit P-63? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And could you mark -- I guess it 25 would be 13 where the Rose -- the Manning camp was.
781 A: 13? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 3 12. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And so it would be Number 12? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the image we're looking at right 9 now has a time marker as My Friend, Ms. Vella, pointed 10 out. It's 13:14:36 and I apologize, Commissioner, I 11 should have done that when I stopped before but I didn't. 12 13 (VIDEO PLAYING) 14 15 A: That's Rose Manning. 16 Q: That's Rose Manning at 13:15:17? Is 17 that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 20 (VIDEO PLAYING) 21 22 Q: Now we're up to 13:36:40. Do you 23 recognize this camp, Mr. George? 24 A: Not -- 25 Q: I'll play it a little more.
791 (VIDEO PLAYING) 2 3 A: Doesn't look like no one is camping 4 to me. 5 Q: No, this looks like somebody's house. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: That could be farther east on Highway 8 21. 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 A: That's the -- 13 Q: Actually, that looks like the -- 14 A: That's the -- 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: That's the Northville Variety and -- 17 Q: That -- 18 A: -- gas station right there. 19 Q: That's what that building was at 20 13:37:13 -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- I guess, was the Northville 23 Variety Store? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And if I could just ...
801 (VIDEO PLAYING) 2 3 Q: That gives you a better shot starting 4 at 15:36:56. And at 15:37:12 there's an ice cream sign 5 and a telephone. Does that help you place where -- that 6 -- where this is? Is it the variety store in Northville? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that's a public payphone to the 9 left where the telephone sign is and a white structure -- 10 white -- 11 A: Yeah, that's a phone -- phone booth. 12 Q: Phone booth coming out from the side 13 of the building? 14 A: Yeah. 15 16 (VIDEO PLAYING) 17 18 Q: And now it appears this car is moving 19 west on Highway 21 towards the army camp? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And at 13:38:39, we're getting close 22 to the army camp? 23 A: I don't know. 24 Q: Do you recognize -- 25 A: That's Rose Manning's camp there.
811 Q: That's Rose Manning's camp and that's 2 on the eastern -- we've already marked it -- on the 3 eastern end of the army camp near the quarry? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is that Lake -- or the body of water 6 that we just saw in this -- 7 A: Yeah, it's a small -- small Inland 8 lake. 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 A: That would be the stone quarry. 13 Q: That's the stone quarry where that -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: We have to run back through. 16 Unfortunately, you can't go to the end and back up if you 17 -- if it quits like this. We're almost at the end. 18 19 (VIDEO PLAYING) 20 21 A: You went right by it. There. 22 Q: So that's at the stone quarry on the 23 eastern end of the camp, towards Outer Drive? 24 A: Yes. 25
821 (VIDEO PLAYING) 2 3 Q: And at 13:39:20 on the counter, do 4 you recognize that camp? 5 A: It looks like Maynard T.'s Camp. 6 7 (VIDEO PLAYING) 8 9 Q: That was the argument hall that we 10 passed at about 13:39:56? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 13 (VIDEO PLAYING) 14 15 Q: And this is the rifle range, the main 16 rifle range? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that's the one that's shown on P- 19 63, Rifle Range, where it says "Rifle Range"; is that 20 correct? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Yeah. 23 24 (VIDEO PLAYING) 25
831 Q: And at 13:40:25 was your camp? 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (VIDEO PLAYING) 5 6 Q: What we're looking at, at 13:40:46, 7 it's just shots of the Army Camp, the gate, the main 8 gate? 9 A: We're at Army Camp Road now. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Looking towards the gate. 12 13 (VIDEO PLAYING) 14 15 Q: And at 13:42:16, it appears to be at 16 the entrance for the Army Camp, the main gate? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Then, we're back, this is at a later 19 time in the afternoon -- it's just a few more minutes, 20 Commissioner. It's at 16:51:40. Do you recognize that 21 camp? 22 A: It looks like Cliff's camp. 23 Q: Okay. Do you recognize that person? 24 A: No. I don't recognize that guy. 25 Q: The vehicle appears to be going east
841 on Highway 21? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And again at 16:52:47 is your camp 4 and that of your grandfather and relatives? 5 A: Yes. This is Melvin (phonetic) at 6 the bottom left there. 7 Q: 16:53:03. Do you recognize that man? 8 A: No, I don't. It's Katherine George 9 there. 10 Q: At 16:53:52. 11 A: Manning's camp. 12 13 (VIDEO PLAYING) 14 15 Q: At 16:55:30 is the Manning's camp 16 again? 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we'll mark 20 that July -- July 10th as it would be exhibit -- that's 21 CD-ROM P-65, Commissioner. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-65: July 10th surveillance video, 24 CD-ROM, from OPP. 25
851 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Now, prior to the middle of August 3 1993, did you have any interaction with any police 4 officers from the Ontario Provincial Police while you 5 were at the army camp? 6 A: No, I don't recall any. 7 Q: And, can you tell us, while you were 8 at the army camp during the summer of 1993, were there 9 helicopters that you saw -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- at or near the army camp? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And can you describe that for us? 14 A: Yeah. The helicopters, they just fly 15 over all the time, eh? Like, mostly at night time. They 16 fly over any time of the night and usually whenever the 17 people saw them coming or heard them coming they usually 18 went running for their spotlights. 19 It usually looked like a war zone at night 20 time. There were spotlights all spread out; lots of 21 spotlights lighting up the helicopters. 22 Q: And how often during the summer of 23 1993 did the helicopters come over the area that -- you 24 were -- you and others were camping in along Highway 21? 25 A: It was almost every night.
861 Q: And did you -- can you describe any of 2 the helicopters? 3 A: They look like the Hughey (phonetic) 4 helicopters. I couldn't really tell, it was dark out, 5 though, but it took -- it looked like a Hughey, you know, 6 shape in the sky. 7 Q: And did you have a spotlight? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And how -- what was your -- how big 10 was your spotlight? 11 A: I had several different ones. There 12 was like -- I think it was a five hundred thousand 13 (500,000) candle power QV (phonetic) spotlight and -- 14 Q: What does that mean, five hundred 15 thousand (500,000) candle power QV spotlight? 16 A: That's just how bright it is. 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: And, like, QV -- I guess it means it's 19 more of a concentrated spot or something? 20 Q: Yes -- 21 A: And I had a max a millian (phonetic) 22 spotlight. 23 Q: A one million (1,000,000) candle power 24 spotlight? 25 A: Yeah.
871 Q: And did they -- what was the power 2 source for the spotlights, Mr. George? 3 A: You stick them in your cigarette 4 lighter or some people used to clip them onto their 5 batteries. 6 Q: And you? Did you stick them into your 7 cigarette lighter? 8 A: Yeah. Yeah. 9 Q: And do you -- there was an incident 10 with a helicopter in August 1993 that led to a -- an 11 attendance by the Ontario Provincial Police at the army 12 camp. Were you in the army camp in the area that you 13 were camping at the time when the Ontario Provincial 14 Police came? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And do you recall the incident -- do 17 you recall a helicopter flying over the camp near the 18 time that the Ontario Provincial Police came to the camp? 19 A: Yeah. Yeah. I remember a helicopter 20 flying around and right away there was, like, cops that 21 started coming -- coming in and asking questions. 22 Q: But after -- not -- not the same day 23 or the next day? 24 A: Yeah, it was the next day. 25 Q: And so the Ontario Provincial -- it
881 was the Ontario Provincial Police that came to the area? 2 A: Yeah, there was -- I think the guy was 3 -- there was another guy, RCMP, Tim Potts (phonetic) or 4 something. He was -- he was there. 5 Q: Mr. Potts -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- came with the Ontario Provincial 8 Police Officers? 9 A: Yeah. Actually, I think he was 10 sitting on the road that night. 11 Q: Mr. Potts was on the road which night? 12 The night the helicopter flew over? 13 A: Yeah. I don't know -- 14 Q: How -- how do you know that, Mr. 15 George? 16 A: Because he was the first one that was 17 talking to us. I remember him -- talking to him at the 18 gate. 19 Q: You spoke to Mr. Potts? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And what did you speak to Mr. Potts 22 about? 23 A: He was just -- he was asking what -- 24 what was going on and I didn't really know what to tell 25 him because it was just like any other night, helicopters
891 flying around, everybody spotting them. 2 Q: And was this the first time that you 3 met Mr. Potts? 4 A: No, I met him -- I think I met him 5 once before somewhere, probably -- I can't remember. I 6 can't remember where I met him. I know I met him once 7 before. 8 Q: Okay. And when the incident with the 9 helicopter in August, which I believe was August 23rd, 10 where was your camp at that time? 11 A: My camp was right at the back of the 12 firing range, number 2. 13 Q: Number 2? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Did you hear any gun shots that 16 evening? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And when the police came the next 19 day, August 24th, is that your recollection? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And did you have any discussions with 22 the Ontario Provincial Police officers? 23 A: Yeah, when they were searching my 24 camp. They were -- they were going to -- they were going 25 to shoot my dog and --
901 Q: Can you -- can you tell us what was 2 that about? 3 A: They were -- they were just come in 4 and they -- they went to search my camp there and the dog 5 that was barking, they were -- they were going to shoot a 6 couple of dogs. They didn't care. 7 They were -- this is the way they were. 8 They come walking in threatening everybody and waving 9 their guns around. They tore apart my camp. They tore 10 apart my kitchen and threw all my dishes all over the 11 place. 12 I had a guitar there. They threw it on 13 the ground. They took a bunch of stuff. They were goofs 14 and it was -- 15 Q: How many police officers came to your 16 camp? 17 A: Probably about five (5) or six (6) 18 maybe. They were kind of spread out. 19 Q: Do you know the names of any of the 20 police officers that came to your camp? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And the -- you said that the police 23 officers took some things from your camp. What did they 24 take from your camp? 25 A: I had some -- some barbed wire and
911 some -- I found that on the base. And some duct tape 2 which I found on the base. Some twine wire and a pellet 3 gun, slingshot; that was about it. 4 Q: And -- and did you ever receive -- 5 what was the -- what was -- what did you use the pellet 6 gun for? 7 A: Just target practice. We shoot -- 8 shooting targets, pop cans. 9 Q: And the slingshot? 10 A: Same thing. 11 Q: And when the Ontario Provincial 12 Police officers came to your camp, did they show you a 13 search warrant or any other pieces of paper? 14 A: Yeah, they had some sort of piece of 15 paper they showed me. 16 Q: And do you know what that piece of 17 paper said? 18 A: No. I can't remember. 19 Q: And do you -- can you recall what the 20 officers said about the piece of paper? 21 A: They just basically told me what they 22 were going to do and they were pretty arrogant about it 23 and they just kind of basically shoved their way past me 24 and went in there and done that kind of stuff. 25 Q: That was in your tent. Did you -- I
921 take it that you had a tent there? 2 A: It was like a lean-to I built out of 3 tarps. Just like the other camp. Some sort of shelter. 4 Q: And you had a -- it had a kitchen in 5 it as well? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And after that incident with the 8 Ontario Provincial Police, during the rest of the summer 9 of 1993, did you have any other interactions with the 10 Ontario Provincial Police? 11 A: I don't think so. 12 Q: And during the winter of 1994 did -- 13 while you were at -- at the army camp, did you have any 14 interactions with the -- the winter of 1993, 1994, with 15 the Ontario Provincial Police? 16 A: '93, '94 winters? I don't think so. 17 Q: And during the summer of 1994? 18 A: Well, I got a charge for spray- 19 painting some blocks. 20 Q: And that was at the -- 21 A: That was on the East side, towards 22 Port Franks. 23 Q: And on the Army Camp? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And the --
931 A: It was -- 2 Q: -- was it -- when you say "the East 3 side", was it the north -- 4 A: Yeah. Northeast, right on the beach, 5 there. There was some blocks that separated our beach 6 from Port Franks Beach. 7 Q: So that there were -- if I might just 8 -- The area that you're referring to -- the area you're 9 referring to is on the northeast part of the map of the 10 Army Camp. And you were -- there were blocks separating 11 the beach in front of the Army Camp from the beach -- the 12 cottages that ran towards Port Franks? 13 A: Yes. There's all cottages in here. 14 Q: Yes. There's a little square. That 15 little square you're pointing out, that little 16 rectangle -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- that appears to be from Outer 19 Drive, there's road that runs to the West, and then a 20 line that goes to -- up to the edge of the lake, and it's 21 that area where there were cottages? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And perhaps you could mark that area, 24 in the middle of that, with Number 13. I believe number 25 13 is the next number.
941 And could you just mark with Number 14 2 where the blocks were? A little arrow on the blocks so 3 that we can see that, and mark Number 14. 4 And I understand that, from what you said, 5 that these blocks marked the -- the boundary between the 6 beach in front of the Army Camp and the beach in front of 7 the cottages? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And do you know who put those blocks 10 there? 11 A: Probably the cottagers. 12 Q: And was there a -- a roadway leading 13 down to the beach where the blocks were? 14 A: No, not on their side. I don't 15 recall any road that come down. And on our side there's 16 -- there's trails all through there. 17 Q: On the Army Camp side there's -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- trails all the way through there? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And the blocks you spray-painted with 22 -- what did you spray on the blocks? 23 A: "Stoney Point" -- 24 Q: And -- 25 A: -- with a regular can of spray paint.
951 Q: And who were you charged by? 2 A: I was charged by Vince George. 3 Q: And -- but of the Ontario Provincial 4 Police? 5 A: Yeah. And he had a military officer 6 with him, I'm not sure, I think it was that Prentice 7 (phonetic) dude, Prentice guy. 8 Q: There was a military officer by the 9 name of Prentice? 10 A: Yeah. I believe that was his name. 11 Q: And he was a military officer at the 12 Army Camp? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what happened to those charges? 15 A: I think I was ordered to pay a fine. 16 Q: Do you recall? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: But they -- they got up the stand and 20 lied anyways, they said they pulled them blocks out of 21 the ground because there was something about writing 22 graffiti on something that's not going to be there too 23 long, because those blocks are right on the sand and they 24 sink. And that's what I told them, there, that they 25 sink. And cottagers came up and said, No, no, we pull
961 them up every time they sink. But, no, they got new 2 blocks every time they sink. 3 Q: The blocks sink down into the sand? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And there are -- is there -- are 6 there blocks or there's a demarcation between the beach 7 in front of the Army Camp and the provincial park, on the 8 West side? 9 A: Hmm hmm. There was blocks there from 10 time to time, over -- like, over here, we talking about? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Yeah. There is blocks there from 13 time to time. 14 Q: Okay. And other than that 15 interaction with the Ontario Provincial Police in 1994, 16 did you have any interactions with the Ontario Provincial 17 Police? 18 A: No, I don't think so. I think that 19 was probably about it. 20 Q: And in 1995 up to July 29th, 1995, 21 did you personally have any interactions with the Ontario 22 Provincial Police? 23 A: Pardon? Could you repeat that? 24 Q: It would be the winter of 1994 and 25 the spring of 1995 up to July 29th, 1995? July 29th
971 being when people moved into the built-up area of the 2 camp? 3 A: No, I don't think so. 4 Q: And in 1993 did you have any 5 interactions with any of the people at the army camp? 6 A: In '93? 7 Q: '93? 8 A: We would go in there and drive 9 around. They would chase us. They were trying to chase 10 us out but, you know, we just drove around because -- 11 checking the place out. 12 Q: And when you say that you went in 13 there and drove around, can you tell me what you're 14 referring to as 'in there'? 15 A: In -- right in the base built-up 16 area. 17 Q: In the built-up area of the Base? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: We'd -- we'd go in there to drive 21 around, check the place out. And there was another time 22 when we got in a tiff I guess it would with -- when Kevin 23 had his shack on the range there. The military went in 24 there and booted him out. There was a deuce there and a 25 pickup truck and probably about seven (7) MP's.
981 Q: And can you tell us when this 2 incident with Kevin Simon took place? 3 A: That was the summer of '93. 4 Q: And was that before or after, if you 5 can recall, the helicopter incident? 6 A: I think that was -- I think that was 7 before, I'm pretty sure. 8 Q: And what did you observe and what did 9 you do with respect to this incident? 10 A: Yeah. It was in '93 because I 11 remember I was watching the fire that night. I was 12 watching the sacred fire and I must have been dozing off 13 or something because I didn't see those army guys go by 14 me. I was right there and I just -- I remember getting 15 up to go take a leak, I guess, and I seen Kevin come 16 flying up from down the ranges in his -- his little red 17 truck there. 18 And I was wondering what the heck was 19 going on because he's moving pretty fast. And he went to 20 his brother's trailer and got his brother and both of 21 them went flying down there and it's like, whoa. I 22 wondered what was going on and I went flying down there 23 too and -- 24 Q: Did you go by vehicle or? 25 A: Yeah. I jumped in my truck and when
991 I got there it was a deuce and a jeep. 2 Q: And what is a deuce, a two ton truck? 3 A: Yeah it's like a great big truck, 4 armour -- like -- not armoured but it's a personnel 5 carrier. It's like 6 wheel drive. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: A great big truck, diesel. And there 8 was a pickup truck and a small jeep. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And I got there just in time to see 11 those army guys running off. Like they had -- the deuce 12 was loaded up with some stoves and fridges. 13 Q: And whose sto -- did you know whose 14 stoves and fridges they were? 15 A: Yeah, it was Kevin Simon's. 16 Q: And the -- so what then happened? 17 You saw the trucks -- truck move off? 18 A: Yeah. They just -- as soon as we got 19 there it was like they just bolted and -- yeah, they just 20 -- they just took off. They took all the stuff that they 21 had and they took right off. 22 Q: And how many -- how many people were 23 with -- from the army were at the -- Kevin Simon's shack? 24 A: There was probably about six (6) or 25 seven (7).
1001 Q: And Kevin Simon's shack is number -- 2 A: It's number 4. 3 Q: -- number 4 on P-63. And were there 4 flares used by anyone during this incident? 5 A: Flares? 6 Q: Flares? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And other than this incident and -- 9 did you have any other interactions yourself, personally, 10 with anyone during the period that you were on the army 11 camp up to July 29th, 1995 with members of the military? 12 A: You know, they would go by my house 13 pretty much every day. You see them every day. I used 14 to -- I used to see them in the bush too. Like we'd run 15 into them quite -- quite often when we were out and 16 about. We'd be out getting firewood and they'd go by on 17 a road or whatever. 18 See them down on the beach, see them in 19 the dunes. We would see them all over the place. 20 Q: So the military -- the military 21 personnel would move around the army camp outside of the 22 built-up area? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- just as you would move around 25 the army camp outside the built-up area?
1011 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you would have the occasion of 3 running into each other? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the occasions that you -- the 6 occasion you told us about when you went into the built- 7 up area of the army camp, were you asked to leave on that 8 occasion? 9 A: Nope. No one ever told us to leave. 10 Q: You just drove around? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Now the -- in 1993, apart from the 13 pellet gun and the slingshot, did you own any guns, Mr. 14 George? 15 A: In '93? I believe I had a .22 16 calibre Cooey single shot. 17 Q: And did you have any other guns in 18 1993? 19 A: '93? Yeah I -- I remember getting a 20 shotgun sometime I think it was during the winter some 21 time. 22 Q: '93,'94? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And the .22, the Cooey .22 single 25 shot, what did you use that for?
1021 A: Just hunting. 2 Q: And the -- what did you hunt with the 3 .22? 4 A: Whatever it would take down. Usually 5 geese. I don't know if I'd hit a deer with it, I don't 6 know. It's kind of a small -- small rifle. 7 Q: You hunted small animals with it? 8 A: Yeah. Like squirrels. I never got 9 into too much hunting of racoons. I was meaning to do 10 that. A few squirrels there. 11 Q: And did you hunt very often? 12 A: Off and on, yeah. Off and on. 13 Q: Now you were here when Mr. Marlin 14 Simon testified and he described himself as a hunter. 15 Would you describe yourself as a serious hunter? 16 A: At times, yeah. Sometimes. If I had 17 lots of food I probably wouldn't hunt as often. 18 Q: And did you hunt -- why did you hunt? 19 A: It's our right to hunt. Because 20 we've done it for thousands of years. Hunt for food. 21 Q: You hunted for food? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And in 199 -- the winter of '93 and 24 the spring of '94 you said that you obtained a shotgun? 25 A: Yes.
1031 Q: And can you describe that shotgun for 2 us? 3 A: Yeah it was a -- it was a sawed off 4 shotgun. It's a single -- single barrel, cracked barrel. 5 Q: Single barrel, cracked barrel, what 6 does that mean? 7 A: It's just a single shot. 8 Q: And what did you use that shotgun 9 for? 10 A: I hunted geese and ducks. 11 Q: With the shotgun? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what did you pay for the shotgun? 14 A: I think it was, like, twenty bucks 15 ($20). 16 Q: And who did you buy it from; do you 17 recall? 18 A: The guy's name it's either Mike or 19 Mark, or something like that. I don't remember his last 20 name though. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: And before we -- now, did you ever 24 hunt with Mr. Dudley George? 25 A: No, I've never been out hunting with
1041 Dudley. 2 Q: And did you know if Dudley hunted? 3 A: Yeah. He hunted -- I remember him 4 telling me that he got a deer once. 5 Q: And when was that? 6 A: I think that was in -- in '93. I 7 think it was in '93. It was after he -- he got his 8 trailer anyways. 9 Q: So he got his trailer sometime in 10 the -- 11 A: Yeah. I think it's '93. 12 Q: -- summer or fall of 1993? 13 A: Yeah. Fall of '93. 14 Q: And did you discuss hunting with Mr. 15 Dudley George at any other time? 16 A: Not really. 17 Q: And do you know if he -- the time 18 that he, Mr. George, Dudley George, told you that he had 19 shot a deer, did you see a deer? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And before we move on, if I take you 22 back to the summer of 1993 and the building that was 23 being built, we can on the video number P-65, you said 24 that that building was used for meetings? 25 A: Yes.
1051 Q: And were there -- can you tell us 2 what kind of meetings were held in that building? 3 A: Community meetings, mostly. There 4 was a couple of birthday parties we had, I believe, 5 there. We had one for Cliff and Dudley there, both 6 birthday parties. I think we had a couple of classes in 7 there too. 8 Q: And can you tell us what the classes 9 were? 10 A: Just, like, language. Melva would 11 teach us her language. 12 Q: Melva being -- that's Melva George? 13 A: Yeah, Melva George. 14 Q: And what other types of classes did 15 you have? 16 A: We were learning how to drum then 17 too. And I remember being in there a couple times, guys 18 would come up from Bucktown (phonetic). 19 Q: And what is Bucktown? 20 A: Well, Moraviantown. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And they were teaching you how to 24 drum? 25 A: Yeah.
1061 Q: And did Marcia Simon teach you any 2 classes? 3 A: Yeah. She -- she gave us some 4 language classes. 5 Q: And did she talk about the culture? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And can you tell us a little bit what 8 she told you about -- talked to you about -- what kind of 9 subjects were covered in her lessons? 10 A: Yeah. Medicine wheel teachings. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Told us about those. And about -- 13 what else was there? There was medicine wheel and -- 14 just trying to think -- the seven (7) -- seven (7) 15 teachings, the seven (7) grandfathers. 16 Q: And did those classes -- and the 17 classes that you had, were they in 1993 and 1994 as well? 18 A: Yeah. More -- more -- more of them 19 were in '93. She would -- she would sit down pretty much 20 anywhere where the guys were, she would come along and, 21 you know, Let's go have a language class then. 22 Q: "She" being Melva George or Marcia -- 23 A: Marcia. 24 Q: Yes. And who attended those classes 25 with you?
1071 A: Just my brothers and cousins, whoever 2 was there, whoever wanted to learn, I guess. 3 Q: And we heard yesterday about a 4 Warrior Society. Were you here when -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And can you tell us, did you join the 7 Warrior Society? 8 A: Yeah. I was one of those guys. 9 Q: And can you tell us how that came 10 about? 11 A: Marcia, she was teaching us and -- 12 Q: That's -- 13 A: -- we'd always talk about stuff. 14 Q: -- Marcia Simon? 15 A: Marcia Simon, yeah and -- and she 16 would talk to my grandpa too, Abraham, and you know, they 17 would talk amongst themselves and, you know, think about 18 what they could be teaching us, and -- 19 Q: And your grandpa, Abraham George -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- helped -- was -- helped teach, too? 22 A: Yeah, well, he -- whenever she had 23 trouble with a word, he would -- she would go and ask him 24 and he would think what the word was supposed to be -- 25 Q: Yes?
1081 A: -- or any other kind of a name or 2 something like that. I guess it was a way for -- to keep 3 the young people from straying off and getting into 4 trouble because there was work that needed to be done 5 with the fires, pretty much like -- we had, like, a crew 6 to get firewood and it was basically the same people, 7 like we'd sit three and she would teach us the language 8 and she wanted to -- told us about getting a Warrior 9 Society and she told us what it was all about and, you 10 know -- 11 Q: And what did she tell you about the 12 Warrior Society? 13 A: That a warrior's job is -- it's not 14 about himself and how he's got to give himself to 15 whatever needs to be done, like firewood -- got to get 16 firewood for some people, or somebody's car needs fixing; 17 if you know how to fix a car, fix the car, or if you, 18 know, you got to watch the fire. 19 You know, make an example, I guess for the 20 younger people. We would patrol and make sure -- 21 everything has to be seen. You know, we would be out 22 there to see it. 23 Q: And what do you mean by that? 24 A: Like, just be a witness for anything 25 that could be happening.
1091 Q: Yes? 2 A: And the Warriors, like -- stuff like - 3 - they'd always have to be last when it comes -- comes 4 to, like, food and stuff like that. Warriors, they 5 always got to wait for everybody else to get fed, that 6 kind of stuff. And about the drum, Warriors should be 7 drumming. 8 Q: Members of the Warrior Society -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- should learn how to be drummers? 11 A: Yeah. Yeah. Or dancing, you know, 12 they could dance. 13 Q: Or dance as well? 14 A: And then she would tell us about all 15 the -- the outfit's regalia, and about certain protocols. 16 Medicines, too, she would teach us about medicines. And 17 a big thing, too, is about, you know, drinking. 18 You're not supposed to drink. If you're 19 going to -- if you're going to do all this stuff that 20 she's teaching, you can't -- you can't be drinking or 21 doing drugs, like that. She'd teach us different woods; 22 what to look for in the bush. 23 Q: Different types of wood? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Different types of wood?
1101 A: Yes, and, you know, she'd talk about 2 baskets and the wood that they were made out of and how 3 they would start to make the baskets and stuff like that 4 and there was other things. 5 Q: And how many people joined the -- I 6 take it, then, that after Marcia Simon spoke about the 7 Warrior Society, you created a Warrior Society? 8 A: Yeah. It was probably just -- just 9 whatever young guys that was there, like, me and my 10 brother were -- were in there. 11 Q: That's Clayton? 12 A: Yeah, Clayton and her -- Marcia's two 13 (2) sons, Marlin and Kevin and I think Terry Lips Boyd 14 (phonetic) and any of the other little kids out there 15 that wanted to come by and learn, they would come by. 16 Glenn, he sat in on those too, he was always trying to 17 learn the language. 18 Q: That's your -- Glenn -- your cousin, 19 Glenn George? 20 A: Yeah. Yes. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: There'd be different people off and on 23 that would -- you know, somebody would be visiting; 24 they'd hear about it and they'd come over and sit with 25 us. People from other, you know, supporters, they'd come
1111 in too. 2 Q: And the warrior society that you -- 3 that was started, was it -- was it a militant group? 4 A: No, no. She would basically teach us 5 -- tell us about, you know, who we are and we'd about 6 what happened here. We'd talk about the old days, what 7 her dad told her and stuff like that. My grandpa would 8 tell us a few things, crazy stories. He had all kinds of 9 stories. 10 Q: They told you about your history? 11 A: Yeah. He would kind of relate them 12 together in ways so, you know, it wouldn't seem boring 13 listening to them talk and spice it up. He was good -- 14 good at that. He's crack a joke here and there too, just 15 crazy. 16 Q: And these classes went on in '94 -- 17 1994 as well? 18 A: Yeah, yeah. 19 Q: And in 1995? 20 A: Yeah, we had a few classes in '95. 21 There's more people coming around then so everybody was 22 kind of off on their own thing more or less. But we -- 23 we always tried to get to the language class. 24 Q: Okay. Thank you, perhaps that would 25 be a good time to break for lunch, Commissioner.
1121 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it's 2 one o'clock. Break 'til 2:15? 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands adjourned 8 until 2:15. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 1:00 p.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 2:20 p.m. 12 13 REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now resumed, 14 please be seated. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now if we could get it 16 to work, Commissioner. Good afternoon. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 18 afternoon. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm going to go back 20 to Exhibit 65 for a minute and I just want to point out 21 something that Mr. George pointed out that -- that I went 22 over I think too quickly. It's not co-operating but 23 it'll come. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1131 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Here comes 2 the technical reinforcements. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. So we go back 9 to 16-53 I wonder, Mr. George, if you could identify for 10 us the individual that you will see framed that you did 11 identify briefly this morning as we went by it? And 12 this is your camp, I believe? 13 A: Yeah, yeah. 14 Q: And at 16-53 the man in the 15 background is Dudley George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And at 63-53-17 it's Dudley George 18 who started to wave? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Thank you. Now, if we go back for a 21 moment to the weapons that you told me about briefly this 22 morning. You said that you had one (1) .22 rifle in 23 1993, a single shot Cooey? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you have any other .22
1141 rifles? 2 A: Yeah, I had another .22 Cooey, same 3 thing. 4 Q: And was one of those two (2) rifles a 5 gift? 6 A: Yeah. My grandfather gave me it. 7 Q: One of the two (2)? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And when did your grandfather give 10 you the rifle that -- 11 A: It was probably -- probably about 12 1990. 13 Q: And that was your grandfather Abraham 14 George? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And after you moved into the camp, 17 where did you get your ammunition for your .22? 18 A: Canadian Tire. 19 Q: Okay. And you told us about the 20 single shot shotgun that you said would have had a sawed- 21 off barrel; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And can you tell me how you used that 24 rifle -- that shotgun, excuse me, to hunt? 25 A: I just -- I hunted ducks and geese
1151 and just whenever a big flock flew overhead, I'd -- I'd 2 take it out and get myself a goose or a duck. 3 Q: And it's my understanding that with a 4 sawed-off shotgun, when the shell is fired, that with a 5 sawed-off shotgun it spreads our more quickly the shot 6 than it would with a regular shotgun. Is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And so it seems to me, and perhaps 9 you can explain this to me, you would have to be pretty 10 close to the birds to -- if you were a sawed-off shotgun. 11 A: Yeah. Well, sometimes I'd be pretty 12 close. Other times I'd be -- they'd be flying low, like, 13 they flew pretty low. 14 Q: So you simply shot at the whole 15 flock? 16 A: Yeah. And sitting back at the inland 17 lakes they would come in for landings and they'd fly 18 right overhead real low. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: I'd usually get a goose. 21 Q: And if I could -- if we could give 22 Mr. Simon, Mr. Registrar, Exhibits 42(b) and 42(c). Mr. 23 George, excuse me. 24 A: No problem. 25
1161 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And I'm going to put up on the 4 screen. I believe Exhibit 42(c) is a single -- is a 5 single shot Cooey rifle. 6 Do you recognize that photograph, Mr. 7 George? 8 A: Yeah, I recognize it. 9 Q: And what is -- what do you recognize? 10 A: Is it a .22 Cooey single shot. 11 Q: And from the photograph are you able 12 to tell if that was your rifle? 13 A: I can't tell if it was my rifle. It 14 looks like my rifle. 15 Q: Well, perhaps we'll -- what we'll do 16 is we've got the rifle here and I'll show it to you in a 17 moment. But if I could take you to the next photograph, 18 this photograph is Exhibit 42(c) for identification. 19 Do you recognize that shotgun? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And when you say "yes," is that the 22 shotgun that you owned? 23 A: Yeah, yes. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: It's been a while since I seen it,
1171 but yeah. It's because of -- 2 Q: We'll get to what happened to that 3 shotgun, but the -- perhaps what we could do, 4 Commissioner, is -- I've got these two (2) rifles and we 5 could let Mr. George look at them and -- physically look 6 at them. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: I'm showing the witness -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You better 12 take the mike, Mr. Millar, just to keep it on the record. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: If you could just take a look at both 16 of those weapons for a moment, Mr. George. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: We'll talk about that in a moment. 21 But if you could just take a -- 22 A: Yeah, it looks like one that I had. 23 Q: And the other one? 24 THE REGISTRAR: That is 42(c). 25
1181 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That is 42 -- 2 THE REGISTRAR: C. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR C? Yes. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILAR: 6 Q: We'll have to -- we'll go through 7 that, Mr. George. And if you could take a look at 8 the...? 9 THE REGISTRAR: It's 42(B). 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: B? Yes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I don't remember. It looks like the 17 one I had but I can't tell for truth. It looks like the 18 one I had. I don't remember. 19 Q: And on 42(B), the 22, there's some 20 marking on the handle, the stock, "FN." Was that there 21 when -- was that on your rifle? 22 A: No, sir. No. 23 Q: And on the sawed-off shotgun, 42(C), 24 on the photograph that you have in front of you, the 25 photograph 42(C), there is tape on the handle, was that
1191 there when you last saw this weapon? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And what was on the handle where you 4 can see on the left-hand side of the tape? 5 A: It had a stock on it. 6 Q: And how big was the stock? 7 A: It was probably about eight (8) 8 inches maybe. 9 Q: About eight (8) inches long? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And you indicated that when you were 12 looking at the actual weapon, the shotgun itself, there 13 was a mark "FN" I believe that you've pointed out? 14 A: Yeah. I never put that on there 15 either. 16 Q: And the -- the actual shotgun is miss 17 -- has no tape on the handle; is that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the trigger guard is -- or the -- 20 I guess it's the trigger guard is broken on the shotgun? 21 A: Yeah. It wasn't broke when I had it. 22 Q: But that appears to be the weapon 23 that you had? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I don't propose to mark those nor
1201 -- I'm going to return them to the officer who brought 2 them and unless someone would like us to bring them back 3 tomorrow, I don't intend to, so. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I take it 5 the officer has custody and -- for continuity and 6 security and all that? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, they were picked 8 up by the officer from Orillia, brought to Petrolia, 9 brought here. Before they were then stored in Petrolia 10 and brought by the same officer here. Now -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- I don't know what 13 happened to them before that. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But unless someone 16 wants me to bring them back tomorrow, I don't intend to. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 18 move on. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And thank you very 20 much, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 22 to just wait a minute so the officer can -- he can -- I 23 don't think we want them sitting there if we don't need 24 them. Okay. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, actually,
1211 Commissioner, My Friend Mr. Ross made a good suggestion. 2 Perhaps before the officer leaves, if anyone wanted to -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Look at -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- just take a few 5 minutes to look at these weapons, and if they had any 6 questions about them, perhaps we could do that before the 7 officer leaves. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But I'm not quite 10 finished yet, so. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't 12 you at least stay until after the recess that we have 13 this afternoon and then we'll see where we are then. 14 Thank you very much. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: Now, did you write the name on your 18 sawed-off shotgun, "Bastard Blaster"? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And where did that name come from? 21 A: I like to read comic books and there 22 was a -- one of the characters in there had a -- a rifle 23 and it was -- it was called the Bastard Blaster. 24 Q: And which character in which comic 25 book?
1221 A: It was the Lobo comic book. Just one 2 of the crazy characters that are in there -- 3 Q: And -- 4 A: -- I thought that was funny. 5 Q: Pardon me? 6 A: I thought that was funny, so -- so I 7 wrote it. 8 Q: And on the end of the rifle there is 9 some wording -- or the shotgun, do you know what -- can 10 you recall what the wording is there? And we could get 11 it back, actually, to take a look at that. 12 You can't read it. It says something, 13 "Destroy"? 14 A: Yes. I don't remember writing that 15 on here. 16 Q: You don't remember writing that on -- 17 A: No, I don't remember writing it on 18 there. 19 Q: Okay. And the -- where did you, in 20 1993, you had the two (2) .22's, where did you store 21 those two (2) .22's? 22 A: I kept them in a -- my grandpa's 23 trailer. There is a little closet beside the fridge, 24 inside, and that's where I kept those. 25 Q: And was your grand -- grandfather
1231 Abraham's trailer searched in 1993, the search in August? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I -- I take it they weren't there 4 then? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And when did you bring them to the 7 Army Camp -- or did you bring them to the Army Camp? 8 A: Yeah, I brought them down to camp. I 9 think it's probably when we were -- about hunting season. 10 Q: And can you tell us when the hunting 11 season is? 12 A: We usually start hunting whenever the 13 -- the ducks fly, whenever they head south. It's fall. 14 Q: The fall and -- the fall of the year? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And when hunting -- the hunting 17 season was over in 1993, what did you do with the rifles? 18 A: I just put it -- put it in the 19 trailer. 20 Q: In your grandfather's trailer? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And in 1994, when you purchased the 23 sawed-off shotgun, where did you store it? 24 A: Same place. It was -- actually, I 25 kept it in a closet up closer to the ceiling, in one of
1241 the cupboards. 2 Q: In your grandfather's trailer? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And in 1995, in the spring of 1995, 5 did you use either of the -- your three (3) rifles? 6 A: When? 7 Q: In the spring of 1995. 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Just a correction on 9 the record. Not three (3) rifles, two (2) rifles and a 10 shotgun. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me. Mr. Ross 12 is right. Two (2) rifles and a shotgun. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: But the two (2) rifles and a shotgun, 16 Mr. George? 17 A: Yeah. Well the .22, I take one .22 18 out because I only had one at work. The other one was 19 kind of rusty and old and I wouldn't trust firing it. 20 Q: That was the one that was given to 21 you by your grandfather? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: It was an old gun? 24 A: Yeah, it was really old, that's why 25 he gave it to me instead of throwing it away. I took
1251 care of it. 2 Q: Okay. So you didn't use that one? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And the other one? 5 A: Yeah. I'd take the other one out and 6 try and get some geese. Whatever I had bullets for at 7 the time. And I'd take the shotgun out looking for 8 geese. 9 Q: And what kind of shell did you use in 10 the shotgun? 11 A: Probably number 4's. 12 Q: And what is number 4? 13 A: They're real small pellets. It's for 14 like birds and rabbits or something. Probably birds. 15 Q: And the -- in the spring of 1995, did 16 you use your .22 or shotgun to hunt? 17 A: Yeah, off and on. 18 Q: And in August of 1995 -- perhaps I'll 19 come back to that in a moment. In the 1995 -- July 29th, 20 1995, did -- when did you move into the built-up part of 21 the army camp? 22 A: That was the same time as everybody 23 else did. 24 Q: And did you take your shotgun and 25 your .22 with you?
1261 A: No. 2 Q: And where did you leave them? 3 A: I left them where they were in a 4 trailer. 5 Q: And when did you use them during 6 August of 1995? 7 A: Where did I use them? 8 Q: Did you use them? 9 A: No, I don't think so. 10 Q: And did you take the .22 or the 11 shotgun with you when you went to the Park? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And when -- when did you next deal 14 with -- have occasion to deal with the shotgun and the 15 .22? 16 A: I don't even remember the last time I 17 used them. I remember -- I remember the last time I used 18 it, I think I got a goose and it -- that was when I was 19 on the ranges. Probably near the end of the winter I 20 guess. 21 Q: The winter of 1995? '94, '95? 22 A: Yeah. '95 I guess it would be. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Then what was the next thing that you
1271 recall doing with the .22 and the shotgun? 2 A: Well, after we walked into the Base 3 and after we'd done -- walked into the Park and after 4 Dudley was killed there, that's when I heard about him 5 next because, yeah, they were in my trailer the whole 6 time and I heard somebody mention something about them 7 finding guns. I didn't think nothing of it and then I 8 heard something about -- mention of a pipe that was found 9 with them. 10 And it just made me think the -- about the 11 pipe there. And I just went down to my trailer to make 12 sure everything was okay there and I found my -- my shack 13 was broken into and my guns were gone, the pipe was gone. 14 Q: And what -- what was the significance 15 of the pipe? 16 A: It was my grandfather's pipe. 17 Q: Could you describe the pipe to us? 18 A: It was about maybe just over two (2) 19 and a -- two (2) feet and it was -- it was all wood, 20 stained wood and it was -- it was wrapped in a turquoise 21 coloured velvet or velour or whatever you call that 22 stuff. Velour, and it had four (4) feathers hanging down 23 the middle. I think they were kind of tattered by that 24 time. It's pretty old. I think it was just more -- more 25 like an ornamental type thing.
1281 Q: And when did your grandfather give 2 you the pipe? 3 A: He never gave it to me. It was just 4 in his trailer and he let me stay in his trailer. 5 Q: Oh, so it was in the trailer? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And you knew that it was in the 8 trailer? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And when you went back, can you tell 11 us about what time in September you went back to check on 12 the 22 and the shotgun and the pipe? 13 A: Yeah, it was -- I can't remember the 14 exact day but I just remember somebody mentioning that 15 they found some -- some guns. It was -- it was after 16 Dudley was killed. I can't give you the date though. 17 Q: And did you subsequently learn who 18 you believe took the stuff -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- the gun -- the guns and the pipe 21 from your trailer? 22 A: Yeah. I was told it was a guy named 23 Kevin Thomas that was going around stealing. And that he 24 had stole some guns. 25 Q: And as I understand it, he was
1291 expelled from the camp, is that correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And he was -- and as I understand it 4 there was a circle? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And did you attend that circle? 7 A: No, I wasn't in the circle myself. 8 Q: And you were told about that by 9 someone who was in the circle? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And who told you that? 12 A: My Uncle Warren (phonetic) -- or 13 Stuart. 14 Q: And that's Stuart George? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And did you speak to Mr. Kevin Thomas 17 about this -- about the weapons? 18 A: No, I did not. He was gone by that 19 time. Like, I never even got a chance to talk to him 20 about it or nothing. 21 Q: And do you know where he is now? 22 A: I'm not sure. I think he might be 23 living in Corona or something like that. 24 Q: In where? 25 A: Corona maybe. I'm not sure though.
1301 Q: Now can I take you back to July 29th, 2 1995 and prior to moving into the main -- the built-up 3 area of the Base, did you have any discussions with 4 anyone about moving into the built-up area of the Base? 5 Was there discussions among the group? 6 A: Yeah, I remember there was 7 discussions. When the day they were going to walk into 8 the Base there, I was running around trying to -- I was 9 looking for my sister. I wanted her to be there for 10 that. I couldn't find her so by the time I got back 11 there it was half an hour after everybody had already 12 walked into the Base. 13 Q: Yes, so -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- what did you do? 16 A: I just went in there and hung out at 17 the gate and that's about it. 18 Q: And the -- the discussions that you 19 had about moving into the Base, were they on -- on July 20 29th or before? 21 A: Probably about a week before we 22 walked in. 23 Q: And what was the discussion? 24 A: Oh it was just talking about a bunch 25 of legal stuff and there was just a -- the people were
1311 just deciding to go in. 2 Q: Okay. And when you went into the 3 army camp, the built-up part of the army camp, the -- you 4 were at -- you said you were at the gate and what did you 5 do during that -- the first few days? 6 A: I just basically hung out kind of 7 hung out at the gate, you know, to man it. I remember 8 letting people in and letting people out and the army 9 guys said that they're not leaving either so we were 10 going to have to live with them for, I don't know how 11 long he said, a week or something like that or a -- it 12 was either a day or a week. 13 Q: And that was -- you were there when 14 this discussion took place? 15 A: Yeah. I think they had a meeting at 16 the chapel or something. 17 Q: And did you go to that meeting? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: That's when they told everybody that, 21 okay, you guys -- we're going to be here. You guys are 22 going to be here. We're not going to get in each others 23 way or whatever. You guys are going to have to stay on 24 that side, and we'll stay on this side. 25 Q: When -- when you say "that side" and
1321 "this side" what are you referring to? 2 A: It's like a -- I guess they kind of 3 meant to stay away from the gate area and the kitchen 4 area and like, kind of split the camp in half, type of 5 thing. 6 Q: And how many military personnel were 7 there in the camp on July 29th, 1995? 8 A: There was probably about -- between 9 ten (10) and fifteen (15). 10 Q: And as a result of that meeting, it - 11 - you understood -- why would they need to stay there for 12 a week beyond that? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Why did they -- 15 A: We figured -- we figured they were 16 moving stuff out, still, but we knew they were moving 17 stuff out all -- the whole time since we first came on 18 there, they were moving stuff out. We seen them loading 19 stuff up. 20 Q: And when was the last time, prior to 21 July 29th, 1995, that you recall the military using the 22 army camp as a cadet camp? 23 A: They were using the -- there was 24 cadets there in like '93. I think that was the last time 25 they had cadets there. Let's see, yeah, '93, 'cause
1331 that's -- that's when those MP's roughed Kevin up in his 2 shack there, and the shack got burned down and dumped the 3 stuff on the parade square at LG day and I don't think we 4 seen any cadets there after that. 5 Q: And --now you didn't tell me about 6 this. What's "LG day"? 7 A: Lieutenant Governor's day. 8 Q: And what did -- and Mr. -- were you 9 there when Mr. Simon -- Kevin Simon -- what did he do? 10 A: They dumped the -- whatever was left 11 in the shack off on the parade square. 12 Q: And were there people there at the 13 parade square? 14 A: Yeah. It was -- the parade square 15 was full of cadets and people, families, I guess. 16 Q: And -- so that was after -- were you 17 there when Mr. Kevin Simon did this? 18 A: No, I wasn't. I was on the other 19 side, on the other corner of the parade square. 20 Q: Did you see him do this? 21 A: No, I never seen him do it. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: But I seen a pile of lumber on the 24 parade square. 25 Q: And after the summer of 1993, there
1341 were no -- there were no more army cadets at the military 2 base. Were there any other groups to your knowledge, 3 that were using the base for training or ... 4 A: They had a -- different people there. 5 I think they had the Dragoons there. Those guys that 6 call themselves the Dragoons. I think they were there. 7 Q: And what -- 8 A: Just militia groups, I guess, would 9 come in. I think they were more or less manning the base 10 'cause -- 11 Q: Who, the Dragoons? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And the militias groups came in for 14 training or what did they do? 15 A: I think they just came in to man the 16 base. 17 Q: Oh, just to man the base? 18 A: Yeah. There was probably like 19 anywhere between nine (9) and fifteen (15) people there 20 all the time. 21 Q: Between nine (9) and fifteen (15) 22 people? 23 A: Yeah. I think that was about it. 24 Q: So in 1994 and 1995 there were only 25 nine (9) to fifteen (15) people -- army people at the
1351 army camp? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Then where did you -- did you move 4 into the army camp when you -- after you -- into a place 5 in the army -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- the built up area? And if I could 8 just show you for a moment Exhibit P-41. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And this is a plan of the -- plan of 13 the Army Camp. 14 And if you could just give me a moment, 15 Commissioner, I'm just going to throw out the -- on the 16 screen the plan. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: On P-41, can you just tell us which 21 building -- and I'll come back to it later, Commissioner 22 -- can you identify which building that you moved into, 23 Mr. George? 24 A: Yeah. I went -- moved into the first 25 building, there, that -- the one that was used for an
1361 observation post by the MP's. It's number 44. 2 Q: Number 44. And that's on the -- 3 A: It's on -- 4 Q: -- east end of -- 5 A: Yeah. The furthest east building. 6 Q: And how long did you live in that 7 building? 8 A: I think only for one (1) winter. 9 Q: The winter of 95/96? 10 A: Yeah. I couldn't live in there after 11 a while because somebody stole my pipes. 12 Q: Pardon me? 13 A: Somebody stole my pipes in my boiler 14 room, so I couldn't -- I didn't have no water, heat or 15 nothing. 16 Q: Out of the -- someone stole that out 17 of the building? 18 A: Yeah. Somebody stole it for the 19 copper. It wasn't insulated here, so I had a full -- the 20 wood stove on, going full bore all the time. It was just 21 freezing in there, so I couldn't stay there. 22 Q: And so -- 23 A: I moved. 24 Q: -- where did you move to after that? 25 A: That was in -- I moved to building
1371 number 15. I stayed there for another winter. 2 Q: And where is building number 15? 3 A: That is -- that's one of the H huts 4 in the northern sector of the -- the barracks there. 5 It's almost in the middle. There's a little square 6 there. It's six (6) huts, and it's the furthest one to 7 the right, bottom. Building number 15. 8 Q: Okay. And how long did you live in 9 building number 15? 10 A: About a year, I guess. 11 Q: And then where did you move to? 12 A: Then I moved to building 23. That's 13 just right behind it, or right below it on the map here. 14 Q: And building 23, when did you move to 15 building 23, what year? 16 A: Probably '97. 17 Q: And where do you live today? 18 A: Same place, building 23. 19 Q: The same place? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Excuse me for a minute, Commissioner. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: What I'll do is I'll come back to it
1381 after the break and we can just show people where -- 2 where that Mr. George lived. 3 Now in August of 1995 or late July 1995, 4 was there a motor vehicle accident at -- on Matheson 5 Drive? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And was someone killed in that motor 8 vehicle accident? 9 A: Yes. There was two (2) people killed 10 in that one. 11 Q: And can you just briefly tell us 12 where that took place? 13 A: That took place right at the end of 14 Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road. 15 Q: And I'll just -- I'll just throw up 16 the map for a minute and you could point that out to us. 17 Technology is failing me today. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's pretty 19 hard for you to be doing all of it. Is there anybody 20 back there who can help you out? Can Tom? No? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's the machine 22 that's not working. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, the 24 machine's not working. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, Commissioner,
1391 if we could take a short break now and just for a few 2 minutes and then perhaps people could take a look at 3 these two (2) weapons if they wanted to ask any questions 4 and I could then get this machine to work a little 5 better. I have to shut it down and start it up again. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 7 keep our fingers crossed. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 10 break now. Let's take a break now, a fifteen (15) minute 11 break. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So fifteen (15) 13 minutes? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a 15 little early but it's not that early. We're going to 16 break now. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 3:03 p.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 3:35 p.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed, please be seated.
1401 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Mr. Simon, we were looking at -- I 4 mean, Mr. George, I'm sorry, Mr. George -- 5 A: That's all right. 6 Q: We were looking at Exhibit P-41 and I 7 couldn't pull it up on the screen. But the first 8 building that you moved into was Building 44 that you 9 marked with the laser pointer? 10 A: Yeah. Building 44. 11 Q: And the next building was Building 12 23? 13 A: No, it was Building 15. 14 Q: Building 15, excuse me. 15 A: Yeah, on this site right here. 16 Q: And then you're presently in Building 17 23? 18 A: Yeah, on this side here. 19 Q: On the left hand side as you're 20 looking at the picture? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And I'm going to just take you 23 to the map of the Army Camp and we'll go back to... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1411 Q: And we were talking about the 2 accident that took place at the beginning of August. And 3 the accident took place on the intersection of Matheson 4 Drive and Army Camp Road? 5 A: Yeah. Right there. 6 Q: And two (2) people died as a result 7 of that accident? 8 A: Yeah. And there's two (2) other 9 people that were injured too. 10 Q: Injured. And the people had been 11 down at -- on the beach? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And came up from the beach on 14 Matheson Drive? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did not negotiate the turn at the 17 intersection of Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Now, in August of 1995, after you 20 moved into the built-up part of the Army Camp, were there 21 -- and actually before that time, were there a number of 22 unlicenced motor vehicles that were on the Army Camp that 23 were owned by members of the occupying group? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And those motor vehicles were not
1421 taken out of the -- off the Army Camp? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And did, in August of 1995, did you 4 own one of these motor vehicles? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what did you own? 7 A: I owned, I believe it was a -- it 8 must have been the '77 Cutlass Supreme. 9 Q: And where did you obtain your car? 10 A: I bought it in London. 11 Q: And you bought it as a used car, 12 unlicenced? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And for use on the Army Camp? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I understand that -- we've heard 17 some evidence about a car, it was called a "OPP Who" car? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And are you familiar with that -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- term? 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: And can you tell us, in August of 24 1995, what the OPP who car was? 25 A: I think it was, like, a '78 or a '77
1431 Ford LTD. 2 Q: And why did you have the "OPP Who" 3 car? 4 A: Hmm hmm. It was just one of the cars 5 people brought in. 6 Q: And do you know who owned that car? 7 A: Hmm hmm. I think it was -- it's 8 probably Robert Isaac's (phonetic) car. 9 Q: And did that car -- was it licenced 10 or was it unlicenced and remained on the Army Camp? 11 A: I'm not sure. I know -- after it got 12 down to camp, I know it was -- it was not licenced. 13 Q: Once it was on the camp -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- it was unlicenced? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And so that car remained on the Army 18 Camp base or in the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And did it have any writing on it, 21 that you're aware of -- 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: -- other than "OPP Who"? 24 A: It had something written on the 25 trunk, there. I think it was, "Don't laugh, Lady, your
1441 daughter might be in here," something like that. 2 Q: And why was -- do you know why that 3 was written on the car? 4 A: It's just something to make people 5 laugh. 6 Q: And that car didn't leave the Army 7 Camp? 8 A: No, that car never left the Army 9 Camp. 10 Q: Or the Park after -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- the occupation of the Park? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And when did the military leave the 15 army camp? 16 A: They left the same day we came in. 17 Q: On July 29th, 1995? 18 A: Yeah. Yeah. They left about twelve 19 o'clock at night or something. About 12:00. 20 Q: And were you on the gate when they 21 left? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And how many people were there left 24 that -- that left on July 29th, 1995? 25 A: There was probably about five (5)
1451 carloads maybe. There was a few cars that went out the 2 gate. They all left in a convoy. All at the same time. 3 Q: And who was -- after you moved into 4 the army camp in 1993, was there a chief and council 5 created? 6 A: In '95? 7 Q: In '93, when you first went on back 8 in '93? 9 A: Yeah, there was -- we had elections 10 to elect some council -- council members and a chief. 11 Q: And who was the chief? 12 A: Maynard T. George. 13 Q: Maynard T. George first? 14 A: Voted in, yeah. 15 Q: And who were the councillors on the 16 initial election? 17 A: I believe it was Glenn, Bruce, 18 Brennan, Clifford -- 19 Q: Clifford George? 20 A: Yeah. That's -- that's all I can 21 remember and there was a few more. 22 Q: And how long was Mr. Maynard T. 23 George the chief? 24 A: I think it was about -- maybe about a 25 year, somewhere around there.
1461 Q: And he was replaced by who? 2 A: By Carl -- Carl George. 3 Q: And how long did Mr. Carl George 4 remain chief? 5 A: I think he remained chief about a 6 year too. 7 Q: And was he chief in 1995? 8 A: I don't think so. He might have been 9 at the beginning of the year but I think later he was -- 10 he stepped down. 11 Q: And did anyone replace him? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And in August of 1995 did you have, 16 after you moved into the built-up area of the army camp, 17 have any interactions with the Ontario Provincial Police? 18 A: After we moved into the Base? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: The built-up area? 21 Q: Yes, and before the -- before 22 September 4th, 1995? 23 A: Not me personally. 24 Q: And how was it decided to move into 25 the Provincial Park? Did you have meetings? How did
1471 that come about? 2 A: I think it was just like a group 3 decision to go in there because of -- it's part of our 4 original peace land. 5 Q: And when did the -- when did you 6 first start to think about -- thinking about going into 7 the Provincial Park? 8 A: Ever since I had first came on. 9 Q: First came on to the army camp? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And did you discuss that issue with 12 other people? 13 A: There was -- everybody was always 14 talking about it. That's one of the things that we 15 always talked about. Just about the Park and all -- all 16 the lands that were taken away from us, like our hunting 17 grounds. They took all that land and drained it all 18 because it used to be a bog and drained it. And people 19 just started selling off the land. 20 Q: And so that from the time you moved 21 onto the Army Camp in '93, the Park was a topic of 22 discussion, as other parts of your land were? 23 A: Yeah. People always talked about it. 24 Q: And were there any formal discussions 25 in August of -- July or August of 1995 about the Army
1481 Camp -- I mean about the Provincial Park, excuse me? 2 A: Hmm hmm. I don't recall sitting in 3 any meeting about take over the Park. 4 Q: Okay. And did you have any or do you 5 understand if there were any discussions with the Ontario 6 Provincial Police about the potential occupation of the 7 Provincial Park in August of 1995? 8 A: No, I don't think we talked to any 9 police about that. They just assumed, because they had 10 their trailers, they were watching us the whole time, 11 pretty much the whole summer. 12 Q: And when you say "they had their 13 trailers," where did the Provincial Police have their 14 trailers? 15 A: It was very close to the -- it was 16 close to this end over here, almost right there. 17 Actually, it was right about there because they wanted to 18 look down the beach. 19 Q: So that perhaps I could give you 20 Exhibit -- do you have Exhibit 63 still in front of you? 21 A: Yeah, it's right here. 22 Q: And could you mark on that exhibit, I 23 think it would be with number -- what's the last number 24 you had, Mr. George? 25 A: Be number 15 --
1491 Q: It would be number 15. Mark with 2 "Number 15" where the Ontario Provincial Police had their 3 trailer. 4 And can you tell me, Mr. George, how big 5 that trailer was? 6 A: It was probably like a twenty-four 7 (24) footer, maybe, around there; kind of big. 8 Q: And was it on the beach or was it up 9 -- is there a -- 10 A: No, it wasn't -- 11 Q: -- a grade separation -- 12 A: -- it wasn't right on the beach but 13 it was -- yeah, it was up on the bank. There's a little 14 driveway there and then the grassy part starts, once you 15 get up off -- off the lower part. 16 Q: So there's a grade separation between 17 the beach and -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- and the upper bank -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- as the Park? Yes? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did -- was it normal -- or, in 24 1994, did the OPP have a trailer in the Park? 25 A: Hmm hmm. I think so, yeah.
1501 Q: So it -- 2 A: They were watching us in '94 too. 3 Q: And was it -- did they -- the Ontario 4 Provincial Police normally have a trailer in -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: And so when did the trailer -- when 7 did you first see the trailer in the Provincial Park? 8 A: Probably about -- probably about the 9 middle of summer, around there. That's when I first 10 noticed it, because it was -- it was parked right up 11 close to the fence and it didn't -- it kind of looked 12 peculiar because trailers don't usually park in that 13 spot. 14 Q: "The middle of summer," which summer 15 though? 16 A: 1995. 17 Q: And so it was there in '95. But, can 18 you tell us, was it there in '94? Or can you recall? 19 A: Hmm, I remember seeing different 20 trailers there, yeah. 21 Q: Was this a marked OPP trailer? 22 A: No. No. 23 Q: So how do you know it was an OPP 24 trailer? 25 A: Because we just figured because there
1511 was always -- like, you know seen too many people around 2 it. And whenever there was, they would just come and go. 3 You'd never see anybody walking around it. 4 And they always had their windows shut, 5 the blinds drawn. We just figured it was like an 6 outpost. 7 Q: Oh, you made that assumption. It 8 wasn't -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- it wasn't marked -- 11 A: No, it wasn't a marked OPP. 12 Q: And did you recognize any of the 13 individuals that you saw going in and out of the trailer? 14 A: No, I didn't know who they were. 15 Q: And, if I could take you, starting on 16 September 4th, when did you decide to go into the 17 Provincial Park? 18 A: When did I decide? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Probably when everybody else wanted 21 to do it. 22 Q: And when was that? 23 A: It was the same time '95. Just -- it 24 was a group decision to go in there. 25 Q: And when was that group decision to
1521 go into made? 2 A: Probably about a week before we 3 decided that we were going to go in on Labour Day when it 4 closed down. After the people were gone. 5 Q: So the decision was made about a week 6 before -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- to enter into the Park after it 9 closed for the season? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And when on September 4th did you go 12 down to the Park? 13 A: I went down September 4th probably 14 about -- it was in the later evening anyways. It was 15 probably just starting to get dark. Probably about maybe 16 5:00, 5:30 around there. 17 Q: And who did you go with? 18 A: Pretty much everybody else. It was a 19 group. I think I might have had my brother in the car. 20 Q: You drove down? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And your brother Clayton George? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And did other cars drive down? 25 A: Yep. There was a few other cars.
1531 Q: And can you tell us who else was 2 there in the cars that drove down? 3 A: There was my car, my cousin Marlin's 4 car was there. There was -- there was a few other cars. 5 I can't remember whose cars they were that I remember. 6 Q: And where did you -- where did you 7 drive to when you left the built-up part of the army camp 8 to go to the Provincial Park? 9 A: My car was probably left on the beach 10 there right beside it. We kind of have a little parking 11 spot there and leave our cars. 12 Q: Okay. So that -- did you drive 13 down...? 14 A: Yeah, down Matheson Drive. 15 Q: Down Matheson Drive, along -- from 16 the army -- from inside the army camp you went down 17 Matheson Drive and then north to the beach? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you parked your cars on the 20 beach? 21 A: Yeah, kind of up not right so far 22 right down on the beach, kind of up a little ways. 23 Q: And were you on the inside of the 24 Park boundary or on the outside of the Park boundary? 25 A: On the outside of the Park boundary.
1541 Q: And then what did you do? 2 A: We just hopped the fence there and we 3 were just walking around checking the place out. There 4 was a few police officers milling around. 5 Q: And did you go to the gate on the 6 east side of the Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And when did you go to the gate on 9 the east side of the Park? 10 A: Right as soon as I got in there. 11 Q: So you walked -- you went into the 12 Park and then went over towards the gate? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what happened, if anything, at 15 the gate? 16 A: I had a tire iron, I was going to try 17 and break the chain on it. 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: And there was a couple of cops 20 sitting on the picnic table there. They were just -- 21 they were watching us. I think I even talked to those 22 guys, small talk, how's it going or whatever, nice day 23 kind of thing. 24 And then when I went over to knock that 25 chain off they said, I wouldn't do that if I was you.
1551 Q: Yes. 2 A: And I just kind of turned around and 3 looked at him and then somebody had some bolt cutters 4 from the other side. There was probably four (4) or five 5 (5) people there. 6 Q: On the other side of the fence? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: The chain was cut and the gates were 10 open. 11 Q: And then what happened? 12 A: Everybody come in. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: There was probably a few more people 15 around too, but -- everybody was there, but there was, 16 like, four (4) or five (5) people right at the gate right 17 at that moment. And after the gate was opened, that's 18 when everybody come in. 19 Q: And what then happened? 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: What did the two (2) police officers 22 that you had been speaking to do? 23 A: They just got up and started walking, 24 walking down on the other side of the -- the Park, there. 25 Q: And were they walking on the road
1561 that runs from the East side of the Park to the West side 2 of the Park, or where were they walking? 3 A: I don't even remember them walking 4 down there. I just remember them being there. And after 5 the gates were open, it was -- everybody came in. 6 Everybody kind of spread out and checked the place out. 7 I -- I don't recall seeing the cops 8 walking up the road. 9 Q: And what did you personally do after 10 the gates were open? Where did you go? 11 A: I moved with the crowd towards the 12 other side, kind of maybe just -- just walked up the 13 paved part of the road towards the maintenance building. 14 And I -- I went over there, checked it out. 15 Q: So you walked into the Park, almost 16 to the -- to the intersection of the road that leads 17 across the bridge; is that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then went south to the 20 maintenance building? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you were walking? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And at the maintenance building what 25 did you do?
1571 A: I was just looking around. There was 2 MNR guys that were packing stuff up. 3 Q: Did you talk to the MNR -- 4 A: Just -- just said, Hi, how's it 5 going, type of thing. I'm just going to check out this 6 building. And they didn't care. They said, Sure, go 7 ahead. 8 Q: And did you know any of those MNR 9 individuals? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And so what did you do; you went in 12 and looked at the maintenance building? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then what did you do? 15 A: I seen an MNR guy handing over keys 16 to -- I think it was Les Jewel -- 17 Q: And where were you -- 18 A: -- the keys. 19 Q: -- when this happened? 20 A: I was just walking around in the -- 21 the building, checking it all out. 22 Q: At the maintenance building? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And who was Les Jewel? 25 A: He was one of the supporters from the
1581 -- down in the States. 2 Q: And whereabouts from the States? 3 A: Mount Pleasant, I believe. 4 Q: Okay. And would -- did you hear the 5 conversation between Mr. Jewel and the gentleman that 6 you've identified as Mr. Cobeaci (phonetic)? 7 A: Yeah, I heard a little bit. They 8 were talking about, This key is for this door, that -- 9 this -- that key is for that door, and like that. 10 Q: And then what happened? 11 A: Then we just -- I left that building 12 and went towards the -- down towards the park -- sandy 13 parking lot area. 14 Q: And the sandy parking lot area is 15 north and west of the Camp store? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Park store? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the sandy parking lot area, are 20 you talking about on the inside of the Park -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- or on the outside of the Park? 23 A: I -- I didn't go right to the sandy 24 parking lot area, I was just going towards it, but, right 25 there --
1591 Q: Where is that? I can't -- tell me 2 where "right there" is. You have the -- 3 A: There was a -- a kiosk in here, 4 somewhere around this area here. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And that's kind of where all -- where 7 all the police were gathering up, there. 8 Q: And is that the -- the road, the 9 entrance road into the Park? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And -- 12 A: That's just on the other side of the 13 bridge. 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: It's just on the other side of the 16 bridge that's in the Park there. 17 Q: And was it the entrance gatehouse or 18 is it a difference building? 19 A: No. It's -- I don't know if you'd 20 call it a gatehouse. There was no gate there. It was 21 more like a kiosk, sort of where they took the people's 22 money for coming in. 23 Q: That's where people went through when 24 they went it? 25 A: Yeah. Yeah.
1601 Q: And it's a building that has a sloped 2 -- had a sloped roof? 3 A: Yeah. Yes. 4 Q: And it was -- in front of the 5 building, the roads -- there was a -- the road curved, 6 there were curves in the road? 7 A: Yes. This isn't a very good map 8 here. 9 Q: The map doesn't really show. 10 A: No. 11 Q: And perhaps I could take you to a 12 different map for a moment. And this is P-61, it's P-61, 13 Commissioner, and it's 10002409 and the kiosk that you're 14 referring to, was it in the -- this area, Mr. George? 15 A: Yeah. It's right there. 16 Q: Right there? 17 A: And this Park store is over here. 18 Q: You said the Park store is -- this 19 map doesn't really show where the Park store was? 20 A: It's not a very good map either. 21 Q: Pardon me? 22 A: It's not a really good map either. 23 Q: So that the Park store was farther 24 over to the left part of -- 25 A: Yeah, it was up there.
1611 Q: And perhaps what we could do is give 2 the witness a -- a copy of Exhibit P-61 and you could 3 mark on P-61, Mr. George, where -- perhaps before you do 4 that I just wanted to make sure we didn't have any other 5 marks on there, Mr. George. 6 So if you could mark on Exhibit P-61, the 7 location of the Park store and I know that it's a 8 substantial store but if you could mark on it, on the map 9 with a 1 please. 10 And if you could mark on P-61 with a 2 11 where the entrance kiosk or gate house was. And could 12 you just with your laser indicate on the copy on the 13 screen where you've marked the 1 and where you've marked 14 the 2. 15 A: 1 is marked right about here. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And 2 is marked right about here. 18 Q: Okay. And the -- there was a parking 19 lot on the inside of the park to the north of the Park 20 store, is that correct? 21 A: Yes. On this parking lot here. 22 Q: And could you mark that with a 3 on 23 P-61? 24 A: Actually this whole area was kind of 25 like a parking lot. There's places to park all through
1621 there. 2 Q: In the whole area there was a -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Well, just -- perhaps you could just 5 draw -- put a 3 on there and you're including in that 6 parking area, the two (2) vertical columns that are just 7 to the right of where you're going to put the 3. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. So you went to the kiosk or 10 the entrance -- the kiosk at the entrance to the Park 11 where they took the money? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what did you observe? You 14 observed police officers I think you said. 15 A: Yeah. They were all gathered around 16 there probably this area here. 17 Q: On the -- on the -- 18 A: Yeah, they were parked heading down 19 this road here so they're all gathered up. 20 Q: So they were on the west side of the 21 gate house -- or the kiosk? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And how many police officers were 24 there? 25 A: Probably about forty (40), fifty
1631 (50). It looked like about that, about forty (40) maybe. 2 There was quite a crowd. 3 Q: Quite a crowd of police officers? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And what did -- how were the police 6 officers dressed? 7 A: They were just dressed in their 8 regular blues. 9 Q: Pardon me? 10 A: The regular blue uniform. Probably a 11 bullet proof vest underneath. 12 Q: But you didn't see that? You just 13 saw the regular uniforms? 14 A: There were some with the bullet proof 15 on the outside. 16 Q: Okay. And how many cars were there? 17 A: There's probably about six (6). Five 18 (5) or six (6). 19 Q: And -- so you arrived at the kiosk, 20 you saw the police officers. What did you do? 21 A: I just stood there looking around, 22 checking it out. 23 Q: And what was happening as you were 24 standing there "checking it out"? 25 A: Well, I went walking -- I went kind
1641 of walking up to the police there. I never said nothing 2 to them. I just wanted to see what they were going to 3 do, if -- they kind of got in my face and I forget what 4 they said. 5 Something -- something rude anyways. Why 6 don't you go stand over on your own side. 7 Q: So you went up to the police 8 officers -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- and -- 11 A: I didn't say nothing to them. 12 Q: -- and was there -- was there anyone 13 else with you apart -- there -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- apart from the police officers? 16 A: There was -- everybody else was 17 standing further back. 18 Q: By the kiosk? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And then after you had the exchange 21 with the police officer, what did you do? 22 A: I just went back over. 23 Q: To the? 24 A: To the other people. 25 Q: By the kiosk?
1651 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And so how many people were there 3 from your group at the kiosk? 4 A: Maybe about twenty-five (25). 5 Q: Twenty-five (25)? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And did any of the people at the 8 kiosk have any bats or sticks or ... 9 A: Yeah, there was probably a couple of 10 guys with bats and there's a few people with walking 11 sticks. I, myself, had a walking stick. 12 Q: And what did -- 13 A: Just something I picked up and walked 14 with it. 15 Q: You picked that up in the Park? 16 A: Yeah. And there's -- I remember 17 seeing somebody else had a pretty -- like, a walking 18 stick that was decorated. 19 Q: And you told us when you first went 20 into the Park you had a tire iron. What happened to it? 21 A: I'm not sure. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I don't even remember what I did with
1661 that. I probably put it back in my car. 2 Q: Okay. And so you were at the kiosk. 3 What then happened? 4 A: The cops were just standing around 5 and we were standing around, kind of staring each other 6 down and -- you, know, somebody was throwing flares. 7 Like, not the flares, but black caps, they were called. 8 They're little -- like little -- little firecracker type 9 things. 10 You light them up and some black smoke 11 comes out and curls up. Nothing big. That's what my 12 cousin Wes was throwing. 13 Q: And your cousin Wesley George threw 14 that and where did he throw those? 15 A: He threw -- threw it out in the open 16 towards the Police. 17 Q: And how far were the Police away from 18 your group? 19 A: Probably about fifteen (15) feet. 20 Q: And how far did Mr. Wesley George 21 throw the -- what did you call them? The -- 22 A: Black cap. 23 Q: Black cap? 24 A: Yeah. I think he might have grazed 25 one (1) officer with -- on a pantleg or something.
1671 Q: And the black cap, can you describe 2 it a little more. Is it a -- ten (10) inches, two (2) 3 inches, one (1) inch? 4 A: It's probably about -- about an inch, 5 maybe. Kind of looks like a little cap. Like a bottle 6 cap made out of paper. I think there's a wick sticking 7 out of the top, too. 8 Q: And do you know where Mr. Wesley 9 George obtained the black caps? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And how many did he throw at -- 12 towards the police officers? 13 A: I only seen, like, one (1) or two 14 (2). 15 Q: And the -- what then happened? 16 A: Nothing. The officer just stepped 17 out of the way. And then we were just standing around 18 and my Uncle Judas come -- come up the road. 19 Q: And that's Mr. Roderick George? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And so Mr. Roderick George came up 24 the road from which direction? 25 A: From East.
1681 Q: So he came along the road -- 2 A: Yeah, he was -- 3 Q: -- across the bridge? 4 A: Yeah. He was coming this way. 5 Q: And so the kiosk for the -- to get 6 the permits is in this circular area, here, not as shown 7 on this -- 8 A: Not over there. 9 Q: -- map? 10 A: Right about there. 11 Q: Yeah. Okay. And so he drove up and 12 stopped at the kiosk? 13 A: Yeah. He stopped somewhere in there. 14 And he got out of his car and he walked up to our group. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: And he told them cops they got, like, 17 ten (10) seconds to get out. 18 Q: And did he go up to the police 19 officers and speak to them or did he yell at them from 20 your group? 21 A: He yelled at them from our group. 22 Well, he kind of walked out in the middle a little bit, 23 kind of walked up behind one of the police cars that was 24 sitting there. 25 Q: So he walked towards the police
1691 officers, towards a police car? 2 A: Not right away. He started counting 3 down from ten (10) and probably around three (3) is when 4 he walked towards the police car. He got to the count of 5 three (3). 6 Q: And the -- how far were the police 7 officers from the police car? 8 A: They were pretty much -- he'd be at 9 the back of the car and they were kind of close to the 10 front, and spread out. 11 Q: And so what then happened? 12 A: Well, he got to the count of -- or to 13 the count of three (3) and he walked up to the car, and 14 he hit the back window with a stick. 15 Q: And what kind of stick did he hit the 16 back window with? 17 A: I thought it was a piece of hockey 18 stick. It looked like a piece of -- like a hockey stick. 19 Q: It looked like a hockey stick to you? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And how long was it? 22 A: It's probably about three (3) feet. 23 Q: About three (3) feet? 24 A: Yeah, about three (3) feet. 25 Q: And so did he say anything -- was he
1701 counting (3), this -- he actually counted out loud? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And when he got to the back of the 4 police car he was at number (3), and he -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- and what did he then do? 7 A: Smashed the window. 8 Q: And he hit the window with the hockey 9 stick? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Or what you thought was a hockey 12 stick? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And then what happened? 15 A: Then -- 16 Q: I take it the window broke? 17 A: Yeah, the window smashed. And these 18 cops just kind of looked at each other. And he got down 19 to one (1) and they just hightailed it out of there. 20 Q: So the police officers got into their 21 cruisers and left? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And was there an exchange between Mr. 24 Roderick George and the police officers? 25 A: No, that was the only exchange --
1711 Q: And -- 2 A: -- was the countdown. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: It was -- that's the only exchange, 5 was the countdown. 6 Q: And then what happened? 7 A: Then there was -- 8 Q: The police officers left? 9 A: Yeah, they all left. And everybody 10 went about what they were doing before they walked up to 11 the police, which was -- 12 Q: And what did you then do? 13 A: I went about exploring. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: I went back to the -- the maintenance 16 building to check it out some more. 17 Q: And at this point in the evening of 18 September 4th, 1995, can you tell me approximately -- and 19 I know it's nine (9) years ago, what time the police 20 officers left? 21 A: What -- what time was it when they 22 left? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: It was probably around 6:00. It was 25 getting dark.
1721 Q: And what -- this -- in September, 2 early September, it gets dark around 8:00, is that not -- 3 A: Yeah. It's probably pretty dark 4 around 8:00. It was -- when the cops were leaving, it 5 was not quite as dark. It was just starting to get dark, 6 probably. 7 Q: And what did -- so you went back to 8 the maintenance building? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And what did you do at the 11 maintenance building? 12 A: I just checked it out some more. 13 Q: And then what did you do? 14 A: I probably went back over towards the 15 -- probably went to check out the store. 16 Q: The Park store? 17 A: Yeah, the Park store. 18 Q: And when you say you went to check 19 out the Park store, what did you do? 20 A: I just looked around. 21 Q: Was the Park store open? 22 A: Yes, it was already open. 23 Q: And was there anything in the Park 24 store? 25 A: Not really. It was pretty empty. It
1731 might have been a fridge and a freezer. There was phone 2 there. 3 Q: But were there any supplies in the -- 4 A: No. No, nothing. 5 Q: They had been removed? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And so after you checked out the Park 8 store, what did you do? 9 A: Probably just hung out and made a 10 fire, hung around, talked. 11 Q: And where did -- where was the fire 12 made? 13 A: It was right beside the store. 14 Q: And right beside the store on the 15 parking lot side or on the -- the grass that was to the 16 east of the Park store? 17 A: Yeah. It was kind of to the east and 18 a little bit to the north. It was close to the road. 19 Q: But it was on the gr -- 20 A: Yeah, on the grass. 21 Q: -- it was on the grass, not on the 22 road? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And how many people were there when 25 the fire was built?
1741 A: There was probably ten (10) -- ten 2 (10) around there. 3 Q: And were they all men or were there 4 some women? 5 A: There was women, kids, everybody was 6 there, old people, just checking it all out. 7 Q: And how -- so there were I take it 8 more than ten (10) people in the Park? 9 A: Yeah. There was people milling 10 around all over the place. 11 Q: And so there was approximately ten 12 (10) people by the fire? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And what -- 15 A: There would always be people coming 16 and going. 17 Q: And what was the mood of the people 18 in the Park? 19 A: It was happy. 20 Q: And the -- did you stay in the Park 21 overnight? 22 A: Yeah. I was pretty much there the 23 whole night. 24 Q: And why did you stay in the Park 25 overnight?
1751 A: Just to hold the fort type of thing. 2 Q: Could you speak more into the mike 3 please? 4 A: Just to -- just to be there to hold 5 down the fort. 6 Q: And at this point in the evening of 7 September 4th, had there been any barricades or any such 8 -- were the -- had the entrances to the Park from Army 9 Camp Road been barricaded? 10 A: No. 11 Q: No? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And did you organize -- was it 14 organized that people would stay in the Park or did 15 people simply stay in the Park? 16 A: Yeah. People just stayed in the 17 Park. 18 Q: And so you stayed overnight in the 19 Park and what happened on the morning of September 5th? 20 Where did you stay actually when you stayed in the Park? 21 A: Stayed by the fire. 22 Q: By the Park store? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: In the morning time I -- I remember
1761 knocking down some more signs and stuff. I knocked down 2 a couple of signs. 3 Q: What kind of signs did you knock 4 down? 5 A: Just -- just park signs. 6 Q: And why did you knock down the park 7 signs? 8 A: Because it -- it wasn't a park no 9 more. 10 Q: And where were these park signs? On 11 the inside of the Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And so what else did you do? 14 A: Everybody was just hanging around 15 still, the same as the night before. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: There were -- I think there was 18 coffee on at the time and somebody had brought some 19 doughnuts or something. It was like breakfast thing. 20 Q: And if I could you back to the 21 evening of September 4th, did Mr. Kobayashi and an OPP 22 Officer come back to the Park at some point? 23 A: I remember one (1) time there was -- 24 I seen Les Kobayashi, I think he come up with that Vince 25 George. I'm not -- I can't remember if it was on that
1771 day or the next day. It was either that night or the 2 next day that I remember Les Kobayashi and Vince George 3 coming up. They tried to -- he had a paper in his hand. 4 Q: And were you there when Mr. Kobyashi 5 and Mr. George came up -- Vince George came up with the 6 paper in their hand? 7 A: Yeah, I think it was me and my 8 brother was there, we were sitting in our cars. 9 Q: And where were you sitting in your 10 car? 11 A: It was right about over here around 12 the turnstile area. 13 Q: Near the turnstile in the parking lot 14 on the Park side -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- inside the Park? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And so there was you and your 19 brother, was that Mr. Clayton George? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And so what happened? 22 A: We just -- we just backed up a little 23 bit, they turned around and took off. 24 Q: So did you get out of your car? 25 A: No.
1781 Q: Did Mr. Kobayashi or Mr. Vince George 2 say anything to you, that you can recall? 3 A: No, I couldn't hear him, I was in my 4 car. 5 Q: And was there anyone else there? 6 A: It was just me and my brother there 7 at the time, there was people around though, still people 8 milling around. 9 Q: And do you know what piece of paper 10 that Mr. Kobayashi and Mr. -- 11 A: I don't know what -- 12 Q: -- Vince George had? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you subsequently learn that it 15 was a notice under the Trespass Act? 16 A: Yeah, something like that. 17 Q: And when did you learn that? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I just assumed that they were trying 22 to give us something like that, trespassing or -- either 23 -- some sort of injunction or whatever, something. 24 Q: And why did you think that they were 25 -- where did the term injunction come from? Did you know
1791 about injunctions before? 2 A: No. No. 3 Q: How did you hear the term injunction? 4 A: From the papers, they were trying to 5 get injunctions on us. 6 Q: Oh, so that would have been the next 7 day? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And on September 5th or on the 10 evening of September 4th, did anyone else -- did anyone 11 come and try to talk to you or anyone else that you 12 observed at the Park? 13 A: Probably the next day there, I 14 remember this woman, she was kind of hanging around, 15 getting closer little by little. And I thought she was a 16 reporter, but I -- I wasn't going to say nothing to her. 17 Q: Pardon me? 18 A: I didn't want to say nothing to her. 19 Q: Did she say -- 20 A: I figured -- 21 Q: -- something to you? 22 A: She said something. I think she was 23 trying to ask about what was going on. I don't recall 24 the exact words. She -- I think she just -- she 25 introduced herself as a TV reporter.
1801 Q: Yes. 2 A: She didn't have no cameras with her 3 or nothing, so like I wasn't going to talk to her. 4 Q: So you didn't talk to her? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And did you see anyone else or -- 7 aware of anyone else come and try to speak to anyone in 8 the Park? 9 A: I remember this other group of police 10 officers come up to us during the afternoon sometime, 11 like late afternoon. There was probably about four (4), 12 maybe five (5) of them, come walking up to the fence 13 there. And they were asking who our leaders were and 14 this and that, and I said, we don't have no leaders. 15 And I remember the -- some of the words 16 that one (1) guy says, he said, welcome to Canada, and 17 then he was looking at us and he -- he zeroed in on 18 Dudley and he pointed right at Dudley and he says, come 19 on out here, Dudley, you're going to be the first. 20 Q: And you -- can you describe that 21 Police Officer? 22 A: He was short and stocky, kind of 23 reddish brown hair, kind of colour. 24 Q: And had you seen that police officer 25 before?
1811 A: No. 2 Q: And so what did Mr. Dudley George say 3 to the police officer -- 4 A: I think he said something like, Fuck 5 off, or something like that. And then he showed him the 6 finger and it was right then that, right after he 7 threatened Dudley's life, I think it was -- I know 8 somebody come up from behind the sand, he was kind of off 9 to my right, behind me. And that officer, after the sand 10 was thrown, it didn't even hit him, that officer stepped 11 right up and stuck his arm over the fence, does Mace like 12 that and just sprayed, tried to spray as many people as 13 he can get. 14 But everybody just kind of ducted back. I 15 got a little bit on my forehead and some on my arm. 16 Q: And how -- what happened after the 17 officer sprayed the -- you with the -- the Mace? 18 A: He was -- he was basically asking for 19 a fight. He's -- he was trying to -- he was trying to 20 get tough. 21 Q: But what happened? You don't 22 actually know what the officer was trying to do. This is 23 what you -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- what you interpreted. But what
1821 did the officer do after he sprayed the Mace? 2 A: They left. 3 Q: The officers left? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And did any -- did -- 6 A: They -- I think there was a couple of 7 them standing there with their -- their batons out too, 8 those asp batons, telescopic ones. They're kind of -- 9 kind of standing there holding them. 10 Q: And after they -- the exchange with 11 the Mace and the -- the four (4) or five (5) police 12 officers left? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And that was -- can you tell us what 15 time that was on September 5th? 16 A: Hmm, I think it was about -- sometime 17 in the afternoon. The sun was still kind of high. It's 18 probably later in the afternoon. 19 Q: And to go back to September 4th for a 20 moment, the evening of September 4th, were there any 21 ceremonies after you entered the Park? 22 A: I remember somebody doing a -- a 23 sunrise ceremony the next day. There was people probably 24 done their own little ceremony type of thing. I remember 25 seeing somebody with a pipe, he was offering to the
1831 Creator, whoever. I don't know who he was, but... 2 Q: And the next morning there was a sun 3 -- the morning of September 5th there was a sunrise 4 ceremony? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And can you tell me what that 7 consisted of? 8 A: They're just prayers that people were 9 talking. And it was, like, kind of a, like, a talking 10 circle too, passed a feather around. People had to talk 11 what was on their mind. And they passed around some 12 water. Everybody took a drink. And they gave that to 13 the Creator. 14 Q: And on the evening of September 4th, 15 did you throw any flares at a police officer? 16 A: September 4th, no. 17 Q: And -- 18 A: I didn't throw no flares. 19 Q: Pardon me? 20 A: I didn't throw no flares. 21 Q: And the person who threw the -- you 22 called it the black caps, was Mr. Westley George? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And were you subsequently charged, 25 however, with throwing flares on September 4th?
1841 A: Yes. 2 Q: You were? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I understand that charge was 5 ultimately withdrawn? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Can you tell us, on September 5th, 8 the approximate number of people that were in the Park? 9 Were people down by the Park store, or where were they? 10 A: Sometimes there was just, like, maybe 11 two (2) or three (3) people. Sometimes it'd be twenty 12 (20) people. Just depending on what part of day it was, 13 I guess. 14 Q: And did you observe any police 15 activity on September the 5th, in and around the Park? 16 A: Yeah. They had a -- a couple of cars 17 there, at the corner of the road. 18 Q: And when you say at the "corner of 19 the road," you're referring to the intersection of -- 20 A: East Parkway and Army Camp. 21 Q: And were they on the sandy access 22 road to the beach or on the paved highway? 23 A: No. Right on the paved highway. 24 Q: And on September 5th did you observe 25 any checkpoints, Ontario Provincial Police checkpoints,
1851 on Army Camp Road or East Parkway? 2 A: Yeah, I think they had a checkpoint 3 up by Matheson Drive there. I'm sure they had one there. 4 Q: And we'll just go to...and can you 5 point out where the -- on the map where the checkpoint 6 was? 7 A: Probably around this area here. 8 Q: And could you mark on Exhibit -- the 9 map that's in front of you, could you just check on the 10 back, I can't remember, Mr. George, the exhibit number? 11 A: It's P-63. 12 Q: It's P-63. Could you mark on that 13 with the next number, I think it would be number 16, the 14 location of the O.P.P. checkpoint? 15 And how many officers -- can you describe 16 the -- would you describe the checkpoint for me, please? 17 A: I think there was like two (2) cars 18 there and there was probably about four (4) cops. They 19 were just hanging around. It was not like a barricade or 20 nothing. 21 Q: And so were the cars on the side of 22 the road? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And was there any other police 25 presence on September 5th that you observed?
1861 A: Yeah. There was all kinds of police 2 driving up and down the roads. And there was -- they 3 were all over the place. 4 Q: And was there any helicopter activity 5 on September 5th? 6 A: Yeah. Right -- I think we were 7 eating lunch. It was probably sometime around noon. We 8 were all eating some food there and this helicopter come 9 flying overhead and was blowing all the plates 10 everywhere. Everybody was getting upset because the food 11 was getting wasted. 12 Those guys, they didn't care, they just 13 hovered around. I picked up some rocks and I went over 14 there and threw because the helicopter was flying low 15 enough you could hit it with a rock. 16 Q: Was that on September 5th or perhaps 17 on September 6th? 18 A: That was on the 5th? 19 Q: Well, I've got a video that were 20 going to look at tomorrow morning and I think that it 21 shows you and -- A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- we can -- we'll look at that 23 tomorrow morning. But was there anything -- was there 24 any other police activity around the Park on September 25 5th?
1871 Was there -- 2 A: Yeah, that's when we had the picnic 3 tables out there on the road. There they come in and -- 4 Q: We'll get to that later but was a 5 police boat? 6 A: Oh yeah, yeah. There was a police 7 boat there. 8 Q: And when did the police boat arrive? 9 A: I don't know. It was probably when - 10 - as soon as we came in I noticed that boat, there was a 11 boat out there. 12 Q: When did you -- did you notice that 13 boat on September 4th or September 5th? 14 A: No. Probably on the 5th I noticed 15 it. 16 Q: And can describe the boat for us? 17 A: It was just like any other boat, 18 probably fifteen (15) footer. It had a blue stripe down 19 the side on that one. We checked it out through 20 binoculars. It had O.P.P. on it. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And perhaps that would 22 be a good time to stop for today, sir? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mr. George. 25 We're going to adjourn now til tomorrow morning at 10:00.
1881 THE WITNESS: All right. 2 3 (WITNESS RETIRES) 4 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much, Mr. George. We'll adjourn to tomorrow morning 7 at ten o'clock. 8 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 9 Public Inquiry is adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, 10 October 20th at 10:00 a.m. 11 12 --- Upon adjourning at 4:35 p.m. 13 14 15 16 17 Certified Correct, 18 19 20 ___________________ 21 Dustin Warnock 22 23 24 25