11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 October 18th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 MARLIN SIMON; Resumed 5 Continued Cross-Examination 6 by Ms. Karen Jones 7 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 135 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Trevor Hinnegan 183 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 191 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 195 11 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 224 12 13 Certificate of Transcript 239 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 --- Upon commencing at 10:31 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everyone. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning, Mr. Simon. 11 12 MARLIN DOUGLAS SIMON, Resumed 13 14 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I believe we 16 were on cross-examination? 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's right. Ms. 18 Jones from the OPPA is in the midst of her cross- 19 examination. I just want to acknowledge that we have a 20 High School class today, and we welcome them and I hope 21 that you find this a learning experience, so welcome. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Welcome to 23 you all. What -- what school are you from? Is the 24 teacher here, what school? 25 Good, well, welcome. I hope it's an
71 interesting morning for you. Thank you. 2 Ms. Jones...? 3 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Simon, may I remind 4 you that you are still under Oath. 5 MR. MARLIN SIMON: Okay. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Good morning, Mr. 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, Ms. Jones. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Good morning, Mr. Simon 11 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 12 13 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: Mr. Simon, it's been a few days since 15 we've been doing this, so I just wanted to take you back 16 to where we left off. And I think when we left off, I 17 had been asking you some of -- questions about the 18 firecrackers in the Park. 19 And I think you've told us in your 20 evidence that there were firecrackers going off during 21 the day on the 4th or in the evening of the 4th when you 22 went into the Park? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: And during the night on the 4th? 25 A: Yeah.
81 Q: And all during the day on the 5th? 2 And the night of the 5th? And all during the day? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I -- I'm sorry. We're going to have 5 to get back in the groove again. 6 A: All right. 7 Q: And all during the day on the 6th? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. And I was asking you some 10 questions about who had brought the firecrackers into the 11 Park and I think you had told me that people were buying 12 them from the store on -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- Army Camp Road? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And did you buy firecrackers 17 at the store at Army Camp Road? 18 A: Not myself, no. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I think -- yeah, somebody else could 21 have brought some in, too. 22 Q: Somebody else could have brought 23 firecrackers in from -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- somewhere else?
91 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Do you know who that someone could 3 have been? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Or where they would have brought 6 firecrackers in from? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: You know, it's just the long weekend. 10 I think people were just -- just had them or where using 11 them up from the summer or whatever. 12 Q: Okay. Was it usual or unusual where 13 --when you were at the base to have firecrackers go off? 14 A: It was usual. 15 Q: Okay. Something that would happen 16 every day? 17 A: Pretty much, yeah. 18 Q: And every night? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Over the course of three (3) years? 21 A: I don't know about that long, during 22 the summer hours -- summer months, anyways. 23 Q: Okay. So it would be completely 24 usual to have firecrackers going off like that? 25 A: Firecrackers and fireworks, yes.
101 Q: All right. All during the day and 2 during the night? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Yeah? Okay. And I think you told 5 Mr. Klippenstein when he asked you a question, that 6 someone could mistake the sound of firecrackers for 7 automatic gunfire. Is that -- do you agree with that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And do you know what automatic 10 gun -- gunfire sounds like? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I don't know. Yeah. You hear it on 14 TV all the time. 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: Hear it on TV all the time. 17 Q: So your knowledge would come from 18 television? 19 A: Sure. 20 Q: Okay. Have you ever heard automatic 21 gunfire outside of listening to it on television? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Have you heard automatic gunfire 24 outside of television before 1993? 25 A: Yeah.
111 Q: And where was that? 2 A: I used to work at a gas station in 3 Northville. It's about -- I don't know, a mile away from 4 the Army Barracks and they always be firing, doing 5 whenever the military was in there, you'd always hear 6 them from the -- from that gas station whenever I worked 7 -- wherever I worked from in Northville. 8 Q: Okay. And can you help us understand 9 when that was? 10 A: When that was? Jeez, I forget 11 whenever I worked there. It was in the '80s sometime. 12 Q: Okay. And did you hear automatic 13 gunfire after 1993? 14 A: After 1993? 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. And would you be someone who 18 would confuse the sound of firecrackers going off with 19 automatic gunfire? 20 A: Would I be someone? 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: I don't know. Maybe, from a distance 23 I could have. 24 Q: Okay. And I -- I want to ask you 25 some questions. You had talked about in your evidence
121 earlier that on September the 4th a number of people, and 2 I think you told us including Mark Wright (phonetic) and 3 Vince George and Les Kobiashi (phonetic) tried to 4 negotiate with people in the Park? 5 A: I think that was on -- 6 Q: Is that right? 7 A: -- the 5th or something. 8 Q: On the 5th? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And you told us that no one 11 would speak to them? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yeah. And you had said that no one 14 wanted to be targeted as the leader of an occupation 15 because of a concern about people being thrown in jail or 16 other things. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Yeah. And you gave -- you said that 19 that had happened to other people in other occupations. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yeah. And you said that there were 22 people in the Park who had been involved in other 23 occupations. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Do you remember that? And you gave
131 an example - Wounded Knee? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: In the States in 1973. And can you 4 tell us who was in the Park who had been at Wounded Knee? 5 A: Let's see. Dutchy (phonetic) and 6 Buck (phonetic). They were -- they were in there. 7 Q: Is that Dutchy French? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And when you say "Buck", do you mean 10 Buck Doxtator? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Was there anyone else in the Park who 13 had been at Wounded Knee? 14 A: I'm not sure. There could have been. 15 Q: Okay. And were there people in the 16 Park who had been involved in other occupations or other 17 circumstances on reservations where there had been 18 interactions between people on the reservations and the 19 Police? 20 And specifically, were there people in the 21 Park who had been Kenakwe? (phonetic) 22 A: You mean Gunawolge (phonetic)? 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: I think so, yeah. 25 Q: And who was that?
141 A: I'm not sure on their real names. 2 Q: Okay, can you tell us the names you 3 knew them as? 4 A: Yeah, Chucky George and Gabe. 5 Q: Chuck George and ...? 6 A: Gabe Doxtator. 7 Q: Okay. Anyone else you can think of? 8 A: Not, like I don't know them, like by 9 their names or anything, but, yeah, there was a few other 10 guys. 11 Q: Okay. Can you give us an idea about 12 how many other guys? Talking of five (5), ten (10), 13 fifteen (15)? 14 A: Yeah, about five (5). 15 Q: About five (5)? 16 A: Maybe, I'm not sure. 17 Q: And the other name, I take it, for 18 Genis Atake (phonetic) would have been Oka? Is that 19 right? 20 A: I don't know if there was anybody 21 there from Genis Atake but there were guys that were at 22 the Gunawolge one protest. 23 Q: Okay. And were there people there 24 who had been at Oka? 25 A: No, I don't think so.
151 Q: Okay. And were there people in the 2 Park who had been at Oneida? 3 A: Oneida? 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And who was that? 7 A: Just all the guys who were at the 8 Gunawolge thing. They were from Oneida. 9 Q: The same guys, Chuck George -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- Gabe Doxtator and the five (5) or 12 so other guys -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- that you can't remember the names 15 of? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And what about Onendega (phonetic)? 18 A: Onendega? I imagine they would have 19 been there, too. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: I don't know. I'm not sure where 22 they all went. 23 Q: Okay. And what about people who had 24 been at Aquasisaney (phonetic)? 25 A: Aquasisaney? I used to like in
161 Aquasisaney. 2 Q: Okay. Were there other people who 3 were in the Park who had been there? 4 A: I'm not sure. 5 Q: Okay. And I take it that people that 6 you've spoke to us about, Dutchy French and Buck Doxtater 7 and Chuck George and Gabe Doxtater and the five (5) or so 8 other people, I take it those would be people --or do you 9 know, that would describe themselves as warriors? 10 A: Peacekeepers, they were, I guess. 11 Q: Okay. And I take it that in your 12 experience, no one who had occupied the base had ever 13 been jailed or killed as a result of that occupation? 14 A: Nobody that occupied the base? 15 Q: Hmm hmm. When you -- 16 A: Dudley got killed -- 17 Q: -- went into the base. 18 A: -- and Glenn -- Glenn was charged. 19 Yeah, there was all kinds of people that got charged and 20 ... 21 Q: Glenn -- Glenn George was charged 22 and -- 23 A: Yeah. I'm not sure if it was -- it 24 was right around that time, anyway, when we occupied the 25 base.
171 Q: Was he -- what -- do you know what he 2 was charged with? 3 A: I don't know. It had something to do 4 with the -- that incident would happen, like, a month 5 earlier. 6 Q: What incident was that that happened 7 a month earlier? 8 A: Let's see. Whenever the military 9 guys were sneaking around in the campsite, flatten my 10 tires ... 11 Q: That was the incident you described 12 to us last day when someone got captured -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- by a group of the occupiers. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And Glenn George, you say, had been 17 charged as a result of that? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. But my question was to you, 20 whether or not anyone had been jailed or killed when you 21 occ -- when you took over the base as a result of that 22 act over taking over the base? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
181 A: Let's see. I think Lincoln Jackson 2 got charged for something that happened in the base when 3 we took over the base. 4 Q: Do you know what he was charged with? 5 A: Driving a bus. 6 Q: He was the driver of the bus? 7 A: No, he got charged for driving the 8 bus. 9 Q: Okay. And... 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, I have a 11 concern that My Friend is asking the witness with respect 12 to charges, and we don't know whether these charges, in 13 fact, led to convictions. If there's nothing more than 14 charges, then it may not be relevant. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah -- no, 16 the -- the questions aren't about charges I don't think. 17 I didn't hear you ask about charges. That's what he's 18 been answering. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: I -- I have not asked 20 at all about charges -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and my -- and it 23 would not be my intent to do so. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Frankly, Mr.
191 Commissioner, if the witness answers a question and the 2 answer isn't quite clear I think I can ask a question to 3 follow-up. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: I certainly haven't 6 been pursuing it. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. But 8 obviously we -- we all know we would be getting into an 9 area that we shouldn't go in if we're just dealing with 10 charges -- 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. Sure. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- so let's 13 proceed and see if we can avoid any difficulty. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. Okay. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 17 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 18 no one who took over the built up area was ever jailed or 19 killed as a result of taking over the built up area in 20 the base. 21 A: I'm going to say that Lincoln was 22 charged and -- yeah he was probably put in jail and held 23 for bail. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Simon, 25 we're going to get in trouble again.
201 THE WITNESS: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When she 3 asks you if you know anybody who's been jailed or killed, 4 I mean, you don't have to talk about people who were 5 charged who may or may not have been convicted, may or 6 may not have been jailed. 7 The question was: Do you know anybody 8 who's been jailed or killed? I think that was the 9 question. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, sure, yeah. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: Yes I do, yes I do. 16 Q: Okay. Who -- who was that when you 17 say, "yes, I do"? 18 A: Lincoln Jackson. 19 Q: Okay. And on September the 30th, you 20 told us that you and the occupiers, or one (1) of the -- 21 that you and the occupiers would not speak to the OPP 22 after you were in the Park, because you didn't think you 23 were being represented right in the media. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Do you recall that?
211 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And can you help us understand what 3 media you're referring to? 4 A: All of the media. Anybody that was, 5 like, I guess, seen in the media was pretty much targeted 6 for charges, or anything like that. But whenever we 7 would, like, try and get our story out in the media, they 8 would always twist it all around and wouldn't -- they 9 weren't, I guess, telling our story. 10 Q: Okay. And I didn't understand from 11 your answer what effect the media coverage could have on 12 whether or not you spoke with the OPP. 13 A: The media coverage? Hmm hmm, they 14 would pretty much get the general public fired up. And 15 then the general public would be making complaints to the 16 OPP about stuff they seen or never seen or thought they 17 seen. 18 And then the police would have to respond 19 and then they would always turn it into a big criminal, 20 like, criminal things, so that they could just charge the 21 people and sweep it under that rug. 22 Q: Okay. And were there any incidents 23 that happened on September the 4th or September the 5th 24 that you were aware of, where something happened as a 25 result of media coverage that caused the police to charge
221 anyone? 2 A: Hmm hmm, let's see. What was there? 3 Hmm hmm, I think there was something in the media about - 4 - they were asking elders about if there was a burial 5 ground in the -- in the Park, or something like that. 6 And the elders said there wasn't. 7 Q: And the elders said there was not? 8 A: There was not a burial ground in the 9 Park, yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And how would that affect your 11 negotiating with the OPP? Or would it? 12 A: Yeah, it would. It would seriously 13 affect it. 14 Q: Because? How would that seriously 15 affect your negotiating with the OPP? 16 A: Well, if there was somebody from the 17 community that was neighbouring us had said that there 18 was no burial ground in the Park and the police and the 19 general public, they read that, they would want action to 20 be taken because we got no -- no business being in the 21 Park. 22 Q: Okay. Now, I wanted to take you back 23 to September the 5th of 1995. And I think you had told 24 the Commissioner on that day that people were starting to 25 -- were getting more defences in order. And I think he
231 gave an -- as an -- as an example of that, that people 2 were digging up bricks and stacking them up. Do you 3 recall that? 4 A: What day was this on? 5 Q: September the 5th. 6 A: I don't think they were digging up 7 bricks on the 5th. Yeah, I think it was something to do 8 with that. 9 Q: Sorry? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: September the 5th. 14 Q: That would have been the day of -- 15 that in the evening, there was the picnic table -- 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: -- incident. 18 A: Hmm hmm, I think on the 5th everybody 19 was still kind of happy. Things were moving along pretty 20 good, I guess. I don't know. 21 Q: And you told us that people were 22 using mirrors to shine lights in the police's eyes? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q And you said that they were doing this 25 to irritate the police?
241 A: Yeah, I guess. I thought it was 2 mostly -- I think that we thought it was mostly media 3 people that we were shining at with the ... 4 Q: So -- sorry, let me just -- 5 A: Well, there was a bunch of media 6 people there with cameras and we were shining up -- 7 shining the cameras or -- yeah. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Just -- I know, irritate them, I 10 guess. 11 Q: Okay. And would -- in your -- would 12 that be something that would assist you in getting better 13 media coverage or would that harm the media coverage, in 14 your view? 15 A: I don't know. 16 Q: Okay. And I think that you had told 17 us that when people came into the Park on September the 18 4th that they had bats and clubs and other kinds of non- 19 firearm weapons? Do you recall that? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And do you agree with me that, over 22 the course of the day on September the 5th, that people 23 continued to build up and have those weapons at hand that 24 could be used against the police? 25 A: I don't know. They were just kind of
251 something that was always kicking around. We always had 2 them. 3 Q: Sure. 4 A: Didn't really build up that day, or 5 decide to build up that day or anything like that. We 6 just always had them. 7 Q: Okay. Now you told us that you and 8 others had intended to take over the Park on September 9 the 4th, right? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And yet you told Commission Counsel 12 that while you were occupying the Park, that you had 13 built at least one (1) bonfire outside of the Park 14 boundary on Matheson Drive? 15 A: That was after Dudley was shot. 16 Q: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: The -- just to take you back, because 21 I know it's hard to remember -- 22 A: On Matheson Drive? 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: Okay, it would have been the -- yeah 25 it would have been when we were at Matheson Drive --
261 Q: Yeah. And that was -- 2 A: -- and Army Camp Road. 3 Q: Sure. And that was on September the 4 5th or on September the 4th? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Right. So that was well before, 7 yeah. And I take it that setting fires outside of the 8 Park boundary would have nothing do with occupying the 9 Park. Do you agree with that? 10 A: I don't know. It was when we took 11 the Park, we -- the road just kind of come along as a 12 package deal. 13 Q: I'm sorry? 14 A: The Matheson Drive just kind of came 15 along as a package deal when they took the Park. 16 Q: Okay. And did you and others take 17 any steps to secure Matheson Drive, other than lighting 18 bonfires on it? 19 A: I don't know. There's a gateway at 20 the end of Matheson Drive that was always getting closed 21 after such and such a time in the evening, every day. So 22 we just closed that gate, too. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: And ... 25 Q: And did you or others, if you know,
271 put anything in front of or blocking that gate so people 2 couldn't get in? 3 A: I imagine people Parked their cars 4 along there. 5 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not 6 anyone felled trees in that area and put trees in front 7 of the roadway so people couldn't enter? 8 A: I'm not sure. 9 Q: Okay. And you've told us that on the 10 evening of September the 5th that you and others started 11 a bonfire in the sandy Parking area outside of the Park. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Do you recall that? And that's the 14 beach access area at the corners of Army Camp Road and 15 East Parkway Drive? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And that's outside of the Park? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And you told the Commissioner 20 that you wanted to close off that area so that rednecks, 21 or whatever, couldn't pull up in the area and yell 22 obscenities or whatever. Do you remember that? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And I understand that there is a gate 25 between the Park and that sandy Parking lot?
281 A: Yeah, there's a gate and turnstile. 2 Q: Right. And there's a fence between 3 the Park and that sandy Parking lot? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Yeah. And so there was already a 6 barrier in place stopping anyone in -- from -- who might 7 come along East Parkway or Camp Road, from coming into 8 the Park and bothering you? 9 A: I'm not sure what you mean here. 10 You're -- are you saying that there is a barrier across 11 the Parking lot? 12 Q: No, I'm saying that there's a barrier 13 leading into the Park already, that would stop people 14 from coming in; that is the fence and the gate. 15 A: Somewhat, yeah, I guess. 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: There's a turnstile in there too; 18 it's not really locked or anything. 19 Q: Sure. 20 A: It's always open. 21 Q: Sure. 22 A: It's like a revolving door. 23 Q: Sure. But if you wanted more of a 24 barrier coming into the Park, you could have put picnic 25 tables up inside the Park, along that gate or the
291 turnstile or the fence; do you agree with that? Or 2 Parked a car in front of the gate? 3 A: I don't know. I don't think so. 4 Like, the fence along there is, like, really, really 5 little. It's not a big fence. 6 Q: Sure. But you could have stacked 7 things up along the fence inside the Park if you wanted a 8 barrier to stop people coming into the Park; isn't that 9 right? 10 A: I don't know. Could have. Would -- 11 would have been easier just to block off the Park -- 12 Parking lot. 13 Q: But if you had blocked off the 14 Parking lot, that wouldn't stop anyone from driving down 15 East Park Way or Army Camp Road; right? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And so they'd still be there. And 18 I'm just suggesting to you that if what you wanted to do 19 was stop people from coming into the Park, you could have 20 reinforced or blocked off the gate and the fence inside 21 the Park. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I don't know. I'm not really sure
301 what you -- so you're suggesting that we build a bigger 2 fence or something now? 3 Q: I'm saying -- 4 A: Keep people out from coming in -- 5 coming on there and yelling at us. 6 Q: I'm saying if your intention is to 7 somehow barricade the people from coming into the Park, 8 you've already got a gate and a fence between the Park 9 and outside the Park. 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: If your intent was to stop people 12 from coming in, you could have reinforced that from 13 inside the Park. 14 A: I don't know. 15 OBJ MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 16 objecting to this line of question. It is highly 17 speculative. I mean, I understand the inquiry is in to 18 what happened. I mean, whether or not they should have 19 used picnic tables, what difference does it make? They 20 didn't use picnic tables. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, the 22 question's been asked and it more or less has been 23 answered. And I don't think it needs to be asked again 24 and again. I think he said it was easier to block off 25 the Parking lot. I'm not sure how many --
311 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- times we 3 need to go into it. But I think you did ask the 4 question, Miss Jones. I think you got an answer. I'm 5 not sure where you're going with this. 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He might 9 have -- he might have done something else; but I'm not 10 sure where you're going with this. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: And, Mr. Simon, when you and the 15 others started a bonfire outside of the Park on the sandy 16 Parking lot area, I take it that the bonfire would have 17 been relatively close to the cottages in the area? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No? How far was it between the 20 bonfire and the closest cottage? 21 A: I don't know. I wouldn't really call 22 it a bonfire. It was more like a little camp fire. A 23 few guys were sitting around, roasting marshmallows and 24 kids are roasting hotdogs and stuff like that. 25 Q: Okay. And I take it from what you
321 said that you and others pulled out the picnic tables and 2 this at night. So this was all done at night? 3 A: I'm not sure if it was -- it was done 4 in the evening, I think. 5 Q: Okay. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: One of the documents that Commission 10 Counsel has circulated is a statement from Constable 11 Wayland and that is a document that is -- for the 12 assistance of Counsel, 2003958. 13 And according to Constable Wayland, at 14 2215 hours, that is at 10:15 at night, what he observed 15 was: 16 "Several natives carrying picnic tables 17 onto the roadway lot at Army Camp Road 18 and East Parkway Drive." 19 Does that timing sound about to you, that 20 it would have been about ten o'clock at night? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Yeah. And I'm going to suggest -- 23 and you were one of the people that was carrying picnic 24 tables out? 25 A: Sure, yeah.
331 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest that 2 you and the others carried about twenty-two (22) picnic 3 tables -- 4 A: Holy. 5 Q: -- into that area? 6 A: I don't know if it was that many. 7 Q: Do you agree it was quite a large 8 number? 9 A: I don't know. Let's see. I would 10 have figured maybe ten (10) at the most -- 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: It could have been that much, yeah. 13 Q: I'm sorry? 14 A: I said it could have been that much. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I would have figured maybe ten (10) 17 at the most, yeah. 18 Q: Okay. Because we also have in the 19 Commission documents a statement from Mark Wright and 20 that is, for the assistance of Counsel, Document Number 21 2003979. 22 And he says in that document that there 23 were twenty-two (22) picnic tables in the sandy Parking 24 lot area. 25 A: Is that when they come and got them
341 the next day? 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: Let's see. I think we brought more 4 in after -- like these were old, beat up -- these were 5 the old, beat up picnic tables that I think were -- I 6 don't think they were going to use them any more 'cause 7 they had switched to different ones that had metal -- 8 metal frames on them. 9 And then these were all in a big -- big -- 10 big, long pile. We just brought a bunch over. I think 11 we were using some for firewood and -- 12 Q: So you were chopping some up? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And you were -- I take it you were 15 stacking others up? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: To build a barricade? 18 A: Maybe. 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: I think we had some across the -- 21 like they weren't stacked right up but they were across 22 the roadway -- the access to the Parking lot. 23 Q: Okay. And can you help us understand 24 who was with you, carrying the picnic tables out into the 25 Parking lot?
351 A: I'm not sure. Everybody that was 2 around, I guess. 3 Q: Okay. So would you agree with me 4 there'd be somewhere between twenty (20) and twenty-five 5 (25) people? 6 A: Not that many. 7 Q: Okay. How many people do you say 8 there were there? 9 A: Probably about a dozen, maybe. 10 Q: About twelve (12)? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And then, I take it that you 13 and the others stayed out at the picnic tables? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: Okay. And you told the Commissioner 16 that a cruiser came by and the officers told you to go 17 back into the Park? Do you recall that? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And that the officer was actually out 20 of his car and asking you to go back into the Park. 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: And you refused to do so. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 25 you that you never said anything to that officer about
361 being afraid of people coming to the area and bothering 2 you. You told them it was a public roadway and you could 3 be there if you liked. 4 A: Could have. I'm not sure. I'm not-- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- been a long time. 7 Q: Well, in your evidence to the 8 Commissioner -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: -- you told him on the 29th that you 11 told the police it was a public roadway and you could sit 12 there if you liked. Do you remember that? 13 A: Yeah, I probably would have yelled it 14 at them. We weren't really talking to police. 15 Q: Sure. 16 A: We weren't talking or -- yeah. 17 Q: Sure. And you told the Commissioner 18 that the police officer who told you to get back in the 19 Park looked like Ken Deane. Are you saying that person 20 was Ken Deane? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Pardon me? 23 A: No. 24 Q: No. Okay. And then you said that 25 another car came up and pushed the picnic tables? Do you
371 remember that? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 4 you that it was the same cruiser in which the first 5 officer who had stepped out and spoke to you, I'm going 6 to suggest to you that that was the officer and that was 7 the car that pushed over the picnic tables. Do you agree 8 with that? 9 A: I'm not sure who the officer was that 10 was driving the car. 11 Q: Okay. Well, I'm going to suggest to 12 you that what the officer did was use his car to push the 13 barricade open so that there was an entrance to the sandy 14 Parking lot? Do you agree with that? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I don't know. He was -- well there 19 was -- yeah, he would have had to push it open, but he 20 kept on pulling up towards where the fire was and he was 21 pushing picnic tables around at the fire. 22 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest -- 23 A: He was pushing picnic tables around 24 all over. 25 Q: -- that no-one was sitting on the
381 picnic tables because they were piled up to form a 2 barricade. 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I'm going to disagree -- 6 Q: Who was sitting -- 7 A: -- with you. 8 Q: -- on the picnic tables? 9 A: I'm not sure who. 10 Q: Can you help us out at all? 11 A: I'm not sure. I told you, I'm not 12 sure who was sitting on the picnic tables. 13 Q: Okay. And you told the Commission 14 that there were -- was a person or persons that were hurt 15 as a result of being on the picnic tables? 16 A: Yeah, I think somebody got a twisted 17 ankle or a twisted knee or something. 18 Q: Okay. Who was that? 19 A: I'm not sure. 20 Q: Okay. And when you described what 21 happened to the people, you told the Commissioner that 22 there were a person or persons with some bruises. Who 23 were they? 24 A: I'm not sure. 25 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to
391 you, and in fact you told the Commission that at least 2 two (2) people, you were one of them, then picked up a 3 picnic table and threw it at the cruiser. Is that right? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Yeah. And I'm going to suggest to 6 you at that time, that there were approximately between 7 two (2) and four (4) officers on the site. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 10 there were twenty (20) or thirty (30) or so of the 11 occupiers on the site. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I don't know. Maybe. They could 16 have been getting there by now. Like we're all spread 17 out along the -- at the different observation points and 18 whenever police would show up at one (1), we'd all kind 19 of move over that way. 20 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest that 21 point in time that you and others were yelling at those 22 officers and spitting at them and making threatening 23 gestures towards them. 24 A: You're saying that we're threatening 25 the police officers?
401 Q: And yelling at them and spitting at 2 them. 3 A: And these are police officers that 4 are driving at us with their cars? 5 Q: No, I'm saying at the time that -- 6 after you threw a -- the picnic table at one of the 7 cruisers, I'm saying after that point in time, you were 8 yelling and spitting at the officers and making 9 threatening gestures towards them. 10 A: We were throwing rocks and hitting 11 them with rocks and pelting them. We were stoning them, 12 I guess. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I don't know. We would have been 15 yelling -- yeah, sure. 16 Q: Sure. And at this point in time 17 you're still in the sandy Parking lot area, is that 18 right? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And can you help us understand 21 where the stones came from that you were throwing at the 22 officers in the sandy Parking lot area? 23 A: From the gravel on the edge of the 24 sandy Parking lot. 25 Q: Okay. So were you throwing gravel at
411 them or were you throwing rocks at them? 2 A: Rocks from the gravel, yeah. 3 Q: Rocks? Okay. And I'm going to 4 suggest to you at that point in time, a few more OPP 5 cruisers arrived? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Do you agree with that? And I'm 8 going to suggest to you that they also told you to get 9 back into the Park. Do you remember that? 10 A: Sure. 11 Q: And I'm going to suggest that you and 12 others refused to get back in the Park. 13 A: Sure 14 Q: Right. And I'm going to suggest that 15 the police then had to force you to get back into the 16 Park. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just minute. 18 They refused -- 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: She's asking what 20 the police -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know. I 22 know. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- were thinking at 24 the time -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I know.
421 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- what they had to 2 do in their own view. She represents the police, she 3 should ask them. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They were -- 5 you've established that they were told to get back into 6 the Park and they refused. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. And I'm 8 suggesting to him that the police took action to get them 9 back in the Park. And it seems to me -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 11 MS. KAREN JONES: -- to me Mr. Simon was 12 there. In his experience, he can say whether or not the 13 police took measures to get him back in the Park. That's 14 my question. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ask the 16 question that way. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: Did the -- 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: Did -- I take it, then, since you 22 refused to go back in the Park, that the police then took 23 measures to get you back in the Park. 24 A: I don't know. Yeah, I guess. Maybe. 25 I don't know. We didn't -- let me think here. This is a
431 public Parking lot and, I don't know, I guess, we don't 2 count as being public. So we were forced back into a 3 Provincial Park, I guess. I don't know. 4 Q: Sure. And I think you have told us 5 once you were back in the Park, you -- you started 6 throwing rocks at the police and their cruisers. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Yeah. And I take it that the police 9 were not throwing anything at you. 10 A: Outside from pepper spray, yeah, 11 sure. 12 Q: Okay. And the police didn't go into 13 the Park. 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 16 you that what the police did was try to remove and move 17 the picnic tables and get you back in the Park. 18 A: Yeah. I think they might have 19 removed some picnic tables, yeah. 20 Q: Sure. And you told the Commission 21 that there were some broken cruiser windows and dents on 22 the cars. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And do you agree with me that you 25 were throwing rocks in order to cause damage to the
441 vehicles? 2 A: We were trying to throw rocks to get 3 the police to take off and leave us alone. 4 Q: Sure. And do you agree with me that, 5 at that point in time, you were throwing larger rocks? 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: And you were throwing them hard? 8 A: Sure. 9 Q: And you've also told us you were 10 throwing rocks at the officers. 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And do you agree with me that they 13 were also larger rocks and you were throwing them hard? 14 A: Well, you'd have to throw hard. 15 Q: Sure. 16 A: Larger rocks. 17 Q: Sure. And you were doing that 18 because you wanted the police out of there. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And I take it you knew that if you 21 threw larger rocks hard at people, you could hurt them. 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: Sure. And you told the Commission, 24 on September the 30th, that, in your view, the police had 25 tried to pick a fight with you --
451 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- over the picnic tables. And do 3 you agree with me that by starting -- moving the picnic 4 tables out of the Park and starting the fire on the 5 public road, that you and others started an incident? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: I and others started an incident. 10 Q: Sure. Had you not been on the sandy 11 Parking lot, had you not moved picnic tables out, had you 12 not started a fire -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. Had the -- 14 Q: -- it would have been -- 15 A: -- government not taken the land in 16 the first place, I believe this would not have ever 17 happened. 18 Q: Sure. 19 A: So, I don't -- I don't -- I didn't 20 start nothing here. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: My friends, they never started 23 nothing here. 24 Q: Okay. On the night of the 5th, you 25 moved picnic tables out into the pub -- into the public
461 road 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: You started a fire there. Do you 4 agree with me that that would provoke a response from the 5 police? 6 OBJ MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Peter 7 Rosenthal again. How can he know what would provoke a 8 response from the police? What kind of a question is 9 that for the police to ask this witness? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She's 11 asking -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: The police -- the 13 police know what they do in those circumstances. Maybe 14 if the picnic tables hadn't have been there, they would 15 have driven in with twenty (20) cruisers and beaten 16 everybody up. Who knows what would have happened. 17 This is inappropriate questions, in my 18 respectful submission, Mr. Commissioner. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. -- Mr. 23 Commissioner, I -- I really object to that. There is no 24 evidence at all that the police -- that the -- to make 25 the comments that Mr. Rosenthal made. It's really
471 inappropriate and really out of line. 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, this 3 is what I was talking about going into the realm of 4 speculation. She starts her speculation with the Witness 5 and then there's further speculation. If we try to 6 really just just -- you know, limit ourselves to what 7 happened, I think we -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- we will get to the 10 end result in time. But when it goes into one (1) level 11 of speculation it provokes a second level of speculation, 12 which is what we have seen here. 13 So I am -- I'd only think that Mr. 14 Rosenthal was building on the same bridge that was 15 started by Learned Counsel. Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 17 Vella. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. I believe 19 that Ms. Jones asked whether or not Mr. Simon believed 20 his actions might be such that they would have certain 21 consequences, and in my respectful submission, that is an 22 appropriate question. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. It's a 24 matter of asking the question, I think, that's making 25 Counsel object. I say this to you with great respect.
481 Their actions seem to have provoked a response. I mean I 2 think that's a pretty obvious -- 3 MS. KAREN JONES: I -- Mr. Commissioner I 4 agree with that -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and the question I 7 asked him was whether or not he anticipated or he could 8 have expected, that was my intent, that that kind of an 9 action could provoke a response. 10 And that seems to me a reasonable 11 question. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Do you want me to 14 restate the question? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 16 think -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think if 19 you restated it, I think it is a reasonable question. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 22 Q: Let me try this again, Mr. Simon. Do 23 you agree with me that you anticipated or you could have 24 reasonably anticipated that taking the picnic tables out 25 into the public area and starting a fire out there would
491 provoke a response? 2 A: No. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 4 THE WITNESS: No, we did -- we just moved 5 into our area -- we moved into the Park and there was 6 nothing -- police never did nothing about that and just 7 carrying on all day I guess and they never did nothing 8 about anything, so -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well... 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: We didn't figure they would have 14 responded to that either. 15 Q: Okay. So when the police did show up 16 and they asked you a number of times to go back into the 17 Park and you refused to do that, did you anticipate or do 18 you think you would have reasonably anticipated that 19 would provoke a response? 20 A: No. No. 21 Q: And when you started throwing rocks 22 at the police, do you agree with me that you could 23 anticipate or reasonably anticipate that would provoke a 24 response? 25 A: I would anticipate that it would
501 provoke them into leaving, sure. 2 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 3 you, Mr. Simon, that as soon as the police moved you back 4 into the Park and you were throwing the large rocks at 5 them, that the police left? 6 A: Let's see, we stopped for a while and 7 then the police kind of regrouped and had to come in in 8 formation and ... 9 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. 10 Simon, that as soon as the police had moved you back into 11 the Park, and you were throwing rocks at them, that they 12 left. 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. I anticipate that we'll hear 15 evidence from the police that that's exactly what 16 happened and I take it you disagree with that? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Let's see. I think the police left 21 and regrouped and then they came back, yes. 22 Q: No, that's not my question to you. 23 Actually, let me go on a little bit. I'm going to 24 suggest that the police never returned to that area until 25 8:20 the next morning.
511 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 4 should ask him if he knows when the police returned. I 5 mean, I -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The police 8 left at some point, you said. 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And do you 11 know when they returned? 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You did say 14 something about them returning. 15 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you know 17 when they returned? 18 THE WITNESS: It would have been like 19 right immediately. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 21 I'm sorry. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: Okay. You told the Commission on the 25 29th, I believe, that it was fifteen (15) or twenty (20)
521 minutes later. Do you remember that? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 4 the police never came back fifteen (15) or twenty (20) 5 minutes later. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 10 making that suggestion to him, Ms. Jones. You're asking 11 him whether he agrees with it or not. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: Do you agree with that or not? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: I'm not sure on what time they came 20 back or not, nothing like that. They did leave earlier a 21 couple of times that night. 22 Q: Okay. And you told the Commissioner 23 that on the night of September the 5th you were in the 24 Park until about four o'clock in the morning? 25 A: Yes.
531 Q: Okay. And what did you do after the 2 picnic table incident? If that took place at about ten 3 o'clock at night, what did you do between that time and 4 four o'clock in the morning? 5 A: Probably just the same thing we were 6 doing all the nights. Just wandering around and keeping 7 an eye on things. 8 Q: Okay. And this was the patrolling 9 that you had told us about? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: And did you know all of the people 12 that were in the Park that night? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: Yes. And I take it -- so all of the 15 people that were in the Park on the night of September 16 the 5th were people that you knew? 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: Is that right? And can you give us 19 an idea of about how many were in the Park that night? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I don't know. Probably about the 24 same amount. A couple of dozen, dozen, a couple of 25 dozen.
541 Q: Okay. And I take it that you had 2 spent all of the day of September the 5th in the Park; is 3 that right? 4 A: I was always coming and going -- I'd 5 be in the Park or the base. 6 Q: Okay. And do you know who was in the 7 base during the day on September the 5th? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: Okay. So -- 10 A: Everybody would have been seeing us 11 on the news and people would have been coming to check us 12 out. 13 Q: Okay. So I take it there would have 14 been people coming and going at the base? 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: And you don't know all of who was 17 there? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And you don't know what they were 20 doing? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. And one of the documents that 23 the Commission has provided us with is a picture that was 24 taken in the maintenance building on the night of 25 September 5th. It's actually in the early morning hours
551 of September 6th and I take it that the maintenance 2 building's in the Park? Sure? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And I'm wondering if you can help us, 5 since you've told us you know everyone who was in the 6 Park, if you can help us in knowing who is in the picture 7 and maybe you can and maybe you can't but I'd like to see 8 if you can try and help us? And -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this a 10 picture that's already an exhibit? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this 13 picture already an exhibit? No, I don't think so? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, it is. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, it is? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-42(a). 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it? 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It was marked for 20 identification. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: It was marked for 22 identification. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: For 24 identification; that's fine. 25
561 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you 4 seen this picture before? 5 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I think I seen it in 6 the newspaper. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: You've seen that picture in the 10 newspaper? 11 A: Or somewheres. I don't know -- 12 Q: Okay. And can you help us -- 13 A: -- or something. I don't know. 14 Q: Okay. Can you help us with -- with 15 who that person is? 16 A: No. I don't know who that is? 17 Q: No? Okay. Is that a person that you 18 recognize? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Thank you. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, it's 25 11:30, I'm wondering if you would like -- I'm moving into
571 another area so I'm happy to carry on or I wonder if 2 you'd like a little break now? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think 4 we should have a break. Again, I'm going to ask you, how 5 close you are to being completed with your cross- 6 examination? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: I have about an hour 8 left. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 10 I think this would be a good time to have a break. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 13 fifteen (15) minute break. If the class would like to 14 remain behind for a couple of minutes, I'd be happy to 15 talk to the teachers some more over there. Thank you 16 very much. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 11:34 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 11:55 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
581 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 2 Commissioner. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Mr. Simon, I want to ask you some 6 questions now about September 6th. And I think you had 7 told the Commissioner that you went to the Park at about 8 nine o'clock in the morning? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Yeah? And the picnic tables were 11 gone from the sandy Parking area? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I think you said that you and 14 others were busy that day, making sure that there were 15 defences in the Park. Is that fair? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Let me think now. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Let's see. We were -- yeah, pretty - 24 - everybody was pretty much thinking that something was - 25 - was going to happen and we were kind of getting ready.
591 We were -- there was discussion about what's going to 2 happen. If we were going to let them drag us out or we 3 were going to -- I don't know, try and defend ourselves 4 or whatever. 5 Q: Sure. 6 A: So -- 7 Q: And -- sorry, I didn't mean to 8 interrupt you. 9 A: Oh. Well we just kind of rounded up 10 whatever we could. There was -- patio stones were 11 getting picked up and everything and -- let's see ... 12 I don't know. I kind of went and worked 13 on a bus there for a while, just trying to get away from 14 everything. Trying to get the bus going, fired up, 15 cleaned it out. 16 Q: Okay. Now, you told the Commission 17 on September 29th that on September the 6th, that there 18 was a formal rotation system set up for the observation 19 points? 20 A: Somewhat formal. 21 Q: Okay. And can you tell us who 22 planned that? 23 A: Nobody. Just everybody just kind of 24 said, yeah, we've got to do this and just kind of sat 25 around.
601 Q: Okay. And who was sitting around? 2 A: I don't know. Everybody that was 3 down there. 4 Q: Okay. Can you help us understand who 5 that was? Were you there? 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: Okay. I'm sorry, Ms. Vella is 8 reminding me, I'm supposed to remind you to say -- 9 A: Oh, yes. 10 Q: -- yes. And my question was, who was 11 there? 12 A: I'm not sure. Everybody. There's 13 people coming and going all day and there was people 14 showing up. 15 Q: Sure. But at the time when you were 16 sitting around with other people, and there's discussion 17 about the observation posts, and keeping someone at them, 18 who was at that meeting or who was at that discussion? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I don't know. Everybody. Everybody 23 that was there. 24 Q: Okay. And can you break that down 25 for us?
611 A: Can I break it down for you? 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: No, I can't remember who was all 4 there. 5 Q: Okay. Can you remember some people 6 who were there? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And who's that? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I don't know. The list is too long. 13 Q: Help us out a bit. 14 A: Help us out? Jeez, I don't know. 15 Me, my brother, all my cousins. 16 Q: Okay. So there -- 17 A: Nephews. 18 Q: Okay, so there -- 19 A: Or not nephews, but uncles and -- 20 Q: Okay. It -- it's probably more 21 helpful if you can give us names rather than descriptions 22 of a type of people. So your brother Kevin was there? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: And you said your cousins were there. 25 Which of your cousins were there?
621 A: Let's see. Pretty much most of them 2 that are living with me. They're doing this. Taking 3 over this. 4 Q: Okay. And who -- can you give us 5 their names? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: No, I can't. I'm just -- there's 10 just too many people. 11 Q: Can you give us an idea about how 12 many people were at that discussion? 13 A: Probably about twenty (20) maybe. 14 Q: Okay. And you also said that your 15 uncles were there. Which of your uncles were there? 16 A: I don't know. I guess Glenn would 17 have been there. 18 Q: Okay. And who else? 19 A: I think that's the only uncle I had 20 involved with that. 21 Q: I'm sorry? 22 A: I think he's about the only uncle 23 that I had involved with that. 24 Q: Okay. Would Roderick George have 25 been there?
631 A: Could have been. 2 Q: Okay. Was Dudley George there? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Was Stuart George -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You have to say "yes". 6 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm -- 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 10 Q: I'm sorry. Was Stuart George there? 11 A: I don't know. 12 Q: Was David George there? 13 A: Probably. 14 Q: Was Timothy -- 15 A: Because some -- I don't know who was 16 there and who wasn't there. Some people had jobs and 17 some people were working and some people are getting 18 there after work. 19 Q: Sure. 20 A: I don't know who was all there during 21 this, or not. 22 Q: Okay. Of the twenty (20) people or 23 so that were there -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- was Les Jewel there?
641 A: I don't know. 2 Q: Was Russell Jewel there? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: Was Bruce Manning there? 5 A: I don't know. 6 Q: Harvey Manning? 7 A: I don't know. I don't think so. I 8 don't -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- seen any of those guys. 11 Q: Was Hubert George there? 12 A: I don't know. 13 Q: Was Maynard T. George there? 14 A: I don't think so. 15 Q: Was Murray Manning there? 16 A: I don't know. No none of those 17 people were there. 18 Q: Okay. Was Wayne, the person you said 19 from Michigan, there? 20 A: I don't know. Probably. Maybe. I 21 don't know. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: I don't know who was there and who 24 was not there, and who was up the front -- 25 Q: Okay.
651 A: -- who was down the beach, or who was 2 sleeping, or who was awake. I don't know. It's too long 3 ago. 4 Q: Okay. Can you tell us, at that 5 meeting, were different people assigned to do different 6 tasks? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. And one (1) of the documents 9 that we have from the Commission is a interview with a 10 man called Mr. Caten (phonetic), and for the assistance 11 of Counsel it's document 1005397, and he describes being 12 in the Park but at some later time. 13 And he says that in the sandy area outside 14 of the Park, on the South side of East Parkway Drive, 15 between Army Camp Road and the fence to the Park, that 16 there were trenches that were dug, that were deep enough 17 for two (2)or three (3) people to stand in with little of 18 their body showing. 19 Did you or -- did you dig those holes? 20 A: No. There was no holes like that. 21 Q: Okay. And did you do any patrolling 22 outside of the Park outside of the Park during the day on 23 September the 6th? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And where did you patrol
661 outside of the Park? 2 A: I don't know. All around the base. 3 Q: Okay. Did you patrol anywhere along 4 Army Camp Road or East Parkway? 5 A: Did I patrol along where? Army Camp 6 Road -- 7 Q: Along Army Camp Road or East Park 8 Way? 9 A: Could have, yeah. I would have went 10 all the way around the whole base. 11 Q: Okay. And do you know whether others 12 patrolled on Army Camp Road or East Parkway Drive? 13 A: Yeah. I imagine everybody was riding 14 around. 15 Q: Okay. And you had told us, on 16 September 30th, that on -- there were people that were in 17 the Park from Walpole and from Oneida. And can you tell 18 us where Oneida is? 19 A: Just outside of London. 20 Q: Okay. And from Chippewa; where is 21 that? 22 A: It's right across the river from 23 Oneida. 24 Q: Okay. And you talked about Muncie? 25 A: Yeah.
671 Q: And where's Muncie? 2 A: It's right in-between Muncie -- or 3 Chippewa and Oneida. 4 Q: Okay. And Moraviantown? 5 A: It's just down the river a little 6 ways from Oneida and Chippawa and Muncie. 7 Q: Okay. And were the people that were 8 coming in from -- and you had talked about also from 9 Walpole and the Thames (phonetic), were these people that 10 were coming into the Park for the time on the 6th or were 11 they people that had been there on the 5th? 12 A: They were there on the 5th. 13 Q: Okay. And did any new people that 14 you saw come into the Park on September the 6th? 15 A: Probably. 16 Q: Okay. And can you tell us who they 17 were? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No? And I take it that a number of 20 the people who came into the Park were men? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: On the 6th? And can you tell us to 23 your knowledge, if you know, whether those men who came 24 in on the 6th were warriors. 25
681 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I think of all native men as being 4 warriors. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And I guess the Oneida's -- that's -- 7 that is what they consider warriors, too. All of their 8 men are warriors. 9 Q: Okay. And I take it, then, you'd 10 consider yourself a warrior? 11 A: Sure. 12 Q: And can you tell us whether or not 13 you and the other men at the base had organized yourself 14 into a warrior society at any point in time? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And when did you do that? 20 A: I don't know. '93, I guess. 21 Q: Okay. And can you tell us who was 22 members of that warrior society? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
691 A: No. 2 Q: Can you tell us whether the men who 3 were staying at the base were part of that warrior 4 society? 5 A: Men and women, yeah. 6 Q: Okay. And you've told us before 7 about the names of the people who wintered over that 8 first winter? 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Were they all members of the warrior 11 society? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I don't know if they were all 16 members, but, yeah. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: Well, Clifford, he's kind of a older 19 guy, but ... 20 Q: Was Clifford a member of the warrior 21 society? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No. So it was the younger men -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- who were members of the warrior
701 society? Okay. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I believe that the 3 witness answered that there were men and women who were 4 part of what he has defining as a warrior society. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 6 what he -- I haven't heard what he's defined as a warrior 7 society. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I mean that's -- that's 9 another valid point, Commissioner, and if it's not 10 pursued on cross-examination, it may be pursued in reply. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 But he did say there were men and women, I think. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. And Mr. 14 Commissioner, I'm trying to get a better understanding of 15 what he means, and I'm asking him a -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: -- series of questions 18 about that. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: And, Mr. Simon, can you tell us who 24 other than the men who wintered over that first winter 25 were members of the warrior society?
711 A: No, I can't. I don't know. 2 Q: Okay. And when you say that you had 3 a warrior society at the base, was that an organized 4 group of people? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And can you tell us what you were 7 organized for? 8 A: Just for -- just to help out the 9 older people that were living there, cut wood for them or 10 look after stuff for them. Help them get winterized and 11 just do stuff for the older people that they need help 12 with. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Help with fundraising, help with -- 15 Q: Okay. And what were you fundraising 16 for? 17 A: To -- for our leadership so that they 18 could go to different places and stuff like that. 19 Q: Okay. And -- sorry, just so I 20 understand when you -- when you say that, who in your 21 leadership was going places? 22 A: Let's see. It would be Glenn George 23 and Maynard T. Those guys, they'd be -- we'd just like 24 raise funds for Councillors or the heads of the families 25 or whatever to go and do whatever if they had to go to
721 meetings somewhere or drum up support somewheres. 2 Q: Okay. And what else did you do as a 3 group? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Just offer support and help out and 8 if the community decided to do something we'd be there to 9 help them and ... 10 Q: Okay. And I've asked you a number of 11 questions earlier about the men that were in the group. 12 And can you help us any further with the names of the men 13 that were in the warrior society? 14 A: I don't know. I don't have a -- I 15 don't have a big sheet there where you can just look it 16 up -- look at it and tell you who's all there and -- you 17 know? 18 Q: Sure. 19 A: I don't know. 20 Q: But -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 22 Ms. Jones. I don't want to interrupt you, I just want to 23 make sure I'm following you -- 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because the
731 group that you were referring to you that he described -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: The warrior society. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But the 4 group is the warrior society? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So were the 7 functions that he described, that's how he describes the 8 warrior society? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: That -- that's he's 10 describing -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: -- the warrior society. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: And, Mr. Simon, I'm going to suggest 16 to you that you lived with these people for a number of 17 years -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: And you lived together in a very 20 small area on the base? 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: I'm sorry, Ms. Vella -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: --is reminding me again about saying 25 yes. And I'm going to suggest that you were very close
741 to these people. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And how is it that you can't 4 remember their names? 5 A: I don't know. Just -- like -- it was 6 winter time. We just had like a few of us would be 7 around and in summer time there would be more people 8 would come and show up and live there. 9 Q: Sure. 10 A: There would be more people to help 11 us. 12 Q: Sure. And was -- did it -- how -- 13 can you help us understand with the warrior society, to 14 become a member of it, what did one need to do? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: What did one need to do? It would 19 be -- 20 Q: How did -- how did someone become a 21 member of the warrior society? 22 A: I don't know. Just grow up and be 23 Anishnaab from the community. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: There's certain things --
751 Q: Is it -- 2 A: -- you got do and turning of age and 3 stuff like that, and -- if you're in a -- that's just 4 something that everybody, every -- every Anninishnab has 5 to do. 6 Q: Okay. And is it your evidence that 7 anyone then, who was Annishinab could be a member of the 8 Stoney Point warrior society? 9 A: Anybody that's from there, yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And I take it you agree with 11 me that there's a limit -- limited number of people 12 there -- 13 A: Oh yeah. 14 Q: Okay. And can you help us, then, in 15 understanding who they are. 16 A: I don't know. Just -- when they 17 first started out there's just a few people. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And now is getting more people 20 around, there's more people. 21 Q: Sure. Well help us out in 1993. 22 A: 1993? 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: Jeez, I don't even know who was all 25 living there and then during that first summer.
761 Q: Okay. And in response to Ms. Vella's 2 comments, I've asked you who among the men was -- were 3 members of that warrior society, and you've told us for 4 the most point you can't remember. 5 How about women? You said that women were 6 members. Can you tell us who -- which women were members 7 of the warrior society? 8 A: I don't know. My girlfriend was a 9 member. 10 Q: And who is your girlfriend? 11 A: She's not my girlfriend any more but 12 Heather Manning was. 13 Q: Okay. Were there any other women? 14 A: I don't know. Tanile (phonetic) 15 maybe. 16 Q: Okay. And by that, you mean Tanile 17 George? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And was your Mom involved? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: In the warrior society? And were 22 there any other women aside from Heather Manning, Tanile 23 George and your Mom? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
771 A: I'm not sure. 2 Q: Okay. And did you meet as a group, 3 that is did the Warrior Society meet from time to time? 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Occasionally. 7 Q: Were you present -- okay. Can you 8 tell us how often you would have met? 9 A: Not -- I don't know. Just, hmm hmm, 10 whenever the community was planning to do something, we'd 11 kind of meet up and then figure out what we were going to 12 -- how we were going to help them out and -- 13 Q: Okay. And I take it you would have 14 been present at those meeting? 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: And can you -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And, again, can you help us 19 out with who was there? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And you've told us a little 22 bit on September the 6th, about people from a number of 23 communities coming to the Park. And I take it from your 24 comments that those people would have driven to the Park; 25 is that right?
781 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And I take it that they would 3 have been able to enter the Park by a number of different 4 sites; or do you know? 5 They could, for example, they could go in 6 through the base? 7 A: Hmm hmm, they were coming in through 8 the base, yeah. 9 Q: Right. And -- 10 A: That's the only way they were getting 11 in, was -- 12 Q: Pardon me? 13 A: -- through the base. The only way 14 they were getting in was through the base. 15 Q: Okay. And that's because, I take it, 16 the road to -- the Matheson Drive road was block off? 17 A: No, because Army Camp Road was 18 blocked off. 19 Q: Okay. And how was Army Camp Road 20 blocked off? 21 A: There was a police barricade just 22 right by Matheson Drive, and then there was another 23 police barricade up by the military gate, or the gate at 24 the military base. 25 Q: So I take it you're saying there was
791 one by Matheson Drive and there was one by Highway 21? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what about coming in by way of 4 East Park Way; I take it people could do that? 5 A: Hmm hmm. No. 6 Q: Why's that? 7 A: Because the gates were closed down. 8 Q: You had closed the gates? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yes. But I take it if you wanted to 11 let people in, you could open the gates? 12 A: Maybe, yeah. 13 Q: Sure. And I wanted to ask you a 14 couple questions. You had said on September the 6th, 15 that you saw a helicopter over the Park? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: Okay. And you told us at one point 18 in time, when you were gassing up the bus, you said that 19 the helicopter was hovering about fifteen (15) feet above 20 you? 21 A: Not above me. It was over -- above 22 the Parking lot. 23 Q: Okay. And I'm -- I'm trying to make 24 sure I understand your measure of distance. And I was 25 looking at the ceiling of this auditorium. And can you
801 help us understand from your evidence, if the helicopter 2 would have been higher or lower? 3 A: It was probably about the same 4 height. 5 Q: Okay. And do you know what was going 6 on at that time with the helicopter? 7 A: Hmm hmm. I just figured they were 8 doing video surveillance. 9 Q: Okay. And you told us, on September 10 the 30th, that during the course of that day you filled 11 about six (6) twenty (20) gallon gas cans from the Park 12 gas pump? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And I take it that there was a gas 15 tank in the Park? 16 A: Yes, there was. 17 Q: And can you help us, I -- was it a 18 large gas tank? 19 A: Oh, I'm not sure, it's underground. 20 Q: Okay. And you told us that those gas 21 cans, that after you filled them, you took some to a 22 friend? 23 A: Hmm hmm. Let's see. No, I took them 24 up to the front, took some gas cans up to the front. And 25 I took a couple and threw them in the bush, hid them in
811 the bush. 2 Q: Okay. When you say you took a couple 3 up to the front, what does that mean? 4 A: I took a couple up to the built-up 5 area. 6 Q: To the built-up area? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: In the base? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And you said you took some in 11 the bush? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And where in the bush did you put 14 them? 15 A: Hmm hmm. Over by the inland lakes, 16 around there somewhere. 17 Q: Okay. And is that an area in the 18 Park, or in the base? 19 A: No. No, it's in the base. 20 Q: Okay. And I recall from your 21 evidence, that you said you took some up to a friend, do 22 you remember that? 23 A: Yeah, probably. 24 Q: Okay. And what friend did you take 25 gas to?
821 A: I'm not sure, somebody who needed 2 some gas. And their car was run out of gas and -- 3 Q: And was that friend in the Park? 4 A: I'm not sure, maybe. 5 Q: Okay. Do you remember taking the gas 6 to the person? 7 A: No. I'm just trying to remember. 8 Q: Okay. Maybe I can help you out a 9 little bit on your evidence on September 30th, at page 9. 10 When Ms. Vella asked you what you did with the gas, the 11 question was: 12 "Where did you take those gas cans? 13 And the answer was: 14 All different places. I took some up 15 to a friend, left some on the bus. 16 And where else? 17 I put some -- stashed some in the bush 18 somewhere." 19 Does that help you a bit? 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: Okay. And what friend did you take 22 the gas to? 23 A: I'm not sure. 24 Q: You can't remember your friend? 25 A: No, I can't remember his -- I
831 remember dropping some gas off, somebody needed some gas 2 for their car. 3 Q: Okay. And where did you drop the gas 4 off? 5 A: I'm not sure. It's up at the built 6 up area somewhere, the garage. 7 Q: Okay. And you told us that you left 8 some gas on the bus. Is that right? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And when you left the gas on 11 the bus, was the bus in the Park? 12 A: I think it might have been, yeah. 13 Q: Yeah? And can you help us understand 14 who had access to the bus? 15 A: Everybody. 16 Q: Anyone could get on the bus? 17 A: Yeah, anybody. 18 Q: So anyone had access to that gas? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yeah. And they could use it for 21 whatever? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Yeah. And how did you move all those 24 gas cans around? Those six (6) gas cans? 25 A: With the bus.
841 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: With the bus. 3 Q: You drove them around in the bus? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And you -- speaking of the 6 bus, you told us on September 29th, that you got the bus 7 ready, because it was very helpful in earlier things we 8 had used it for? 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Can you tell me what earlier things 11 you had used the bus for? 12 A: Creating diversions. 13 Q: Okay. And I think you told us 14 earlier about one (1) diversion -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- and that was created with -- which 17 is when you entered the built up area? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Were there other diversions that it 20 had been helpful with? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Hmm, I'm not sure, everybody would 25 just kind of look and stare at a big bus cruising around.
851 Everybody -- would just like attract everybody. 2 Q: Okay. And when you say everybody, do 3 you mean the occupiers in the base? 4 A: The general public or -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- whatever. 7 Q: Or the police? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Or the military police? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. And what kind of things did 12 you have to do to get the bus ready to use? 13 A: We had to get another battery for 14 it -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- fix the alternator. 17 Q: I take it the bus then hadn't been 18 running for some time? 19 A: About a month. 20 Q: Okay. And how long did you work on 21 the bus for, during the day, on September the 6th? 22 A: I don't know, a couple hours maybe, a 23 few hours. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Oh, let's see, think about it. Hour
861 or two (2) hours to fix it and then charge up a battery, 2 and then I had to clean it out too, so there was another 3 couple hours. 4 Q: Okay. And did you do that working in 5 that built up area, or in the Park? 6 A: All over. The Park, the built up 7 area and the dump. 8 Q: I'm sorry, and the...? 9 A: And the dump. 10 Q: And where is the dump? 11 A: It's in the army base. 12 Q: Okay. And why were you doing area 13 work in the dump? 14 A: Hmm? 15 Q: Why were you doing work by the dump? 16 A: 'Cause there was a bunch of junk in 17 the bus and I was cleaning the bus out. 18 Q: Okay. And then I think you told us 19 that you put gas in the bus? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yeah. So it was ready to run? Yeah. 22 And what time did you return to the Park on September the 23 6th? You've told us, I think, you spent about four (4) 24 hours cleaning the bus and fixing it up and -- 25 A: I'm not sure what time I got back
871 down there. 2 Q: Okay. Was it during the day time? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And when you got back to the 5 Park, what did you do? 6 A: I don't know. Just Parked the bus. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The difficulty I have 8 with the question, Commissioner, the question of: what 9 did you do when you returned to the Park, is that this is 10 something that we covered extensively in-chief. 11 If Ms. Jones has particular follow up 12 questions from the examination in-chief concerning what 13 he did afterwards, I have no difficulty with that. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How -- 15 MS. KAREN JONES: I do, perhaps, have a 16 number of follow up questions. But the questions, of 17 course, will depend on where Mr. Simon was during the 18 period of time after he got back from the Park. 19 I mean, got back into the Park and so I'm 20 trying to ask him some questions to establish where he 21 was when he got back to the Park and what he did. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's 23 continue. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 25
881 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: Sorry, Mr. Simon. 3 A: I wouldn't have -- I would have been 4 without any wheels, so I probably would have went and got 5 my car. 6 Q: Okay. And I take it, then, you 7 brought your car back into the Park? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what did you do? And where did 10 you Park your car? 11 A: I'm not sure. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I usually Parked it right up beside 14 the store there. 15 Q: Okay. And what else did you do? And 16 what -- sorry, just so I understand, would this have been 17 in the afternoon -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- of September the 6th? Okay. 20 A: It's morning or -- yeah, morning, 21 afternoon. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: We started -- I don't know -- started 24 patrolling around or walking around, see what everybody 25 needs. You know, if anybody needs anything.
891 Q: Okay. And what did you find out in 2 terms of what people needed? 3 A: I'm not sure. 4 Q: Okay. And I asked you a question 5 earlier about whether or not you were out patrolling the 6 area, the roads of East Parkway Drive or Army Camp Road 7 and I think you told us you were. 8 Did you observe some of the occupiers out 9 on East Parkway and Army Camp Road? 10 A: I seen some up against the fence 11 talking to the police on a -- at the roadblock on Army 12 Camp Road. 13 Q: Okay. How about up and around by the 14 intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp Road? 15 A: I wouldn't have been -- I don't know. 16 I wouldn't have been able to drive right round there and 17 look up the road, but ... 18 Q: Sure, but if you were out by the 19 gate, that's by the sandy Parking lot, you would have 20 been able to see who was out there. Were you in that 21 area? 22 A: Just when I went to the store, I 23 guess. 24 Q: Okay. And during the course of the 25 afternoon did you see any groups of cottagers out on the
901 East Parkway Drive? 2 A: Not that I recall. 3 Q: Okay. And I take it that you, as you 4 were walking around patrolling and seeing what was 5 needed, that you would have had with you things to defend 6 yourself with? 7 A: I think I was in my car -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- most of the time I was patrolling. 10 Q: Okay. And I take it you would have 11 had a baseball bat or a club or some other kind of weapon 12 like that in your car? 13 A: Yeah. Sure. 14 Q: Okay. And I take it from the things 15 that you've told us earlier, that others who were 16 patrolling would have had baseball bats or other kinds of 17 weapons with them to defend themselves if they needed to? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 19 Vella? Ms. Vella ...? 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think it's difficult 21 for this witness to speculate as to what others may have 22 had when they were patrolling at any unspecified time 23 during the course of the day of September the 6th. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Let me be a little more 25 specific then.
911 2 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 3 Q: When you got back to the Park, after 4 you had finished getting the bus running and you were 5 patrolling around, and it's a little difficult with time 6 but I take it that would have been in the afternoon, I 7 take it you would have seen others who were also 8 patrolling. Is that right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And do you agree with me that those 11 others who were patrolling would have had clubs or bats 12 or other weapons that they were carrying to defend 13 themselves, if need be? 14 A: Some of them would have, yeah. 15 Q: Sure. And can you give us some idea 16 about how long you would have spent patrolling around on 17 the afternoon of September the 6th? 18 A: I don't know. Right up to whenever 19 all the stuff started happening. 20 Q: Okay. And by stuff starting 21 happening, what -- what do you mean by that? 22 A: With Gerald going through there and 23 then slippery coming up there. 24 Q: Okay. When you said "Gerald going 25 through there", I take it you were in the Park then, when
921 Gerald came by? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: I wasn't right there at the Parking 6 lot or wherever something happened. I'm not sure. But I 7 wasn't right there whenever he went by but I seen him 8 driving by, I think it was I was at Matheson Drive, the 9 observation point on Matheson Drive. 10 Q: So you saw Gerald George -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- driving. Was he driving north on 13 Army Camp Road -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- towards the -- 16 A: He drove up to the police -- the 17 police little -- whatever they had there. The -- their 18 little block -- roadblock or whatever. 19 Q: At -- at Army Camp Road and Matheson 20 Drive? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And was he driving north? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And did you see him stop and 25 talk to the police?
931 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: Okay. And did you -- could you tell 3 whether or not the police stopped or whether he stopped 4 and spoke with the police? 5 A: He's -- anybody that went up there 6 had to stop -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- at the police. 9 Q: And what happened after you saw -- 10 what happened after Gerald George spoke with the police 11 at the roadblock? What did you see? 12 A: I don't know. Gerald George drove 13 away. 14 Q: Okay. And did you go to find out why 15 he was there or what he was doing? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yeah, I think so. We were wondering 20 how he got down there. 21 Q: Sure. And I take it that you would 22 have noticed him specifically, because of your concerns 23 about Gerald George? 24 A: No, it was just because the police 25 weren't -- I don't know, we didn't think the police were
941 letting anybody through that area. 2 Q: Okay. And so when you said that you 3 followed up to see what he was there -- I forget your 4 exact words, what did you find out? 5 A: I don't know. That there was some 6 kind of altercation or something. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Some rocks or something thrown at his 9 car or something like that. I'm not sure. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Something like that. 12 Q: Okay. And you had told us a little 13 bit about when Cecil George came to the Park. 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: And I think you told us he came from 16 the beach area. Is that right? 17 A: Somewhere around there. I'm not sure 18 which way he pulled up. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And where was it -- where was he when 22 you first saw him? 23 A: He Parked his truck right along the 24 fence in the Parking lot. 25 Q: Okay. Is that the fence in the
951 Parking lot by the intersection of East Parkway and Army 2 Camp Road? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And you said that he came with 5 a truckload of people? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Do you know who else was in the 8 truck? 9 A: His brothers. 10 Q: And who are his brothers? 11 A: I think there was Berger (phonetic) 12 and -- 13 Q: Sorry, Berger? 14 A: Yeah, Berger and Finn and Albert. 15 Q: And did they all go into the Park? 16 Everyone that was in the truck that you saw? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And about how many people were 19 in the truck? 20 A: I don't know. I don't -- I'm not 21 sure. 22 Q: Okay. And you told us, when Cecil 23 George came, he was carrying a radio scanner with him? 24 A: Yeah, he had a bunch of supplies. 25 Q: Okay. What other supplies did he
961 have with him? 2 A: Geez, I forget. He had walkie- 3 talkies and cell phone. 4 Q: And when you said he had walkie- 5 talkies, can you give us an idea about how many walkie- 6 talkies he had? 7 A: I'm not sure. I think he had about 8 four (4), maybe. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: A couple of sets of two-way radios. 11 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not 12 those walkie-talkies were then used by people who were 13 patrolling? 14 A: Yeah we divvied them up to the 15 whatjimacallit (phonetic), the observation points. 16 Q: Okay. And you had told us that you 17 and Cecil George were listening to the radio scanner and 18 that you heard something on it regarding the T.R.U. team? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I think you told us that at that 21 time it wasn't yet dark, it was in the evening but it 22 wasn't dark yet. 23 And do you agree with me that at that time 24 of the year, it's getting dark at about 7:30? 25 A: No.
971 Q: Okay. When -- when's it getting 2 dark? 3 A: About 10:00. 4 Q: About ten o'clock at night? 5 A: 10:30, yeah. 6 Q: Okay. This is in September. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: Yeah? Okay. Mark Wright who is one 9 of the members of the OPP in a statement which, for the 10 assistance of Counsel, is Document 2003979, talked about 11 seeing a number of -- of the occupiers on the road, that 12 is on the curve between East Parkway and Army Camp Road 13 and he says it was about the time it was getting dark at 14 7:30. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: Do you agree with that or not? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No? Okay. And you told us that you 19 looked around at that time when you heard the radio and 20 there weren't many people. Where -- where were you 21 looking around at? 22 A: We were around by the store there 23 somewhere, the Parking lot by the store. 24 Q: Okay. And I take it that there were 25 people that were out on patrol?
981 A: Well -- 2 Q: And there were people at the 3 observation points? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not 6 there were people along the fences, especially at the 7 area inside the Park or outside the Park at the sandy 8 Parking lot? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And did the discussion that 13 you heard on the radio, the scanner, about the T.R.U. 14 team coming in, are you saying that occurred at ten 15 o'clock at night? 16 A: Sometime around there. It was 17 getting dark, yeah. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: It's just -- yeah, itÆs getting dark. 20 I believe the sun would have been -- would have set 21 already and then you still got about half hour of 22 daylight after the sun sets. 23 Q: Okay. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
991 Q: Here's a document, Mr. Simon, in the 2 material provided by the Commission and for the 3 assistance of Counsel. That is Volume -- that is 4 Document 2000588. 5 And according to that document at 20:08 6 hours, that is at eight (8) minutes after 8:00, 7 communications was asked to call out T.R.U. and have them 8 report to the command post. 9 I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. Simon, 10 that if you heard a conversation on the scanner about 11 calling out the T.R.U. team that it would have happened 12 at or before eight o'clock in the evening. 13 A: No it would have been daylight still 14 at eight o'clock. 15 Q: So, you disagree that that -- that 16 that calling out of the T.R.U. happened at or before 17 eight o'clock? 18 A: The calling out of the T.R.U. that 19 I'm -- 20 Q: Yeah, that you heard. I'm going to 21 suggest to you -- 22 A: The one that I'm -- that I heard came 23 -- I'm not sure what time it was, but I -- it was like 24 the sky was just pink but it'd be hard to see. The cars 25 were driving round with lights on.
1001 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that that 2 conversation you heard took place at or before eight 3 o'clock in the evening. 4 A: I'm not sure what it occurred at, the 5 one I'm talking about. 6 Q: Okay. And you told us that after you 7 looked around and didn't see many people that you jumped 8 in your car. Was your car Parked at the store? 9 A: Probably, yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And you told us that you drove 11 to the barracks? Is that -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- right? And did you do that right 14 after hearing that conversation about calling out the 15 T.R.U. team on the scanner? 16 A: It wasn't no conversation about 17 calling out the T.R.U. team. It was, T.R.U. team we have 18 a go. 19 Q: Right. And did you get in your car 20 and go to the barracks -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- right after you heard that? 23 A: Yes, yes. 24 Q: Okay. And you told us it took about 25 two (2) minutes to get to the barracks?
1011 A: Probably. 2 Q: Okay. And you said in your evidence 3 to Ms. Vella that it was still daylight when you did 4 that. Do you recall that? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 10 you that it was still before or around eight o'clock that 11 you did that. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 13 already made that suggestion regarding time. If there's 14 one thing we got from the indigenous knowledge forum, I 15 certainly donÆt draw any conclusions from anything, but 16 time was one of the things that was talked about at some 17 length. 18 Now, you've asked him precisely about the 19 time and -- 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- he hasn't 22 been very precise. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: No. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But you have 25 been, so this may be one of those areas where I don't
1021 know if we're ever going to get any more precision than 2 you already have. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 6 Q: And you told us that you drove around 7 the barracks very quickly; is that right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you spoke to Glenn George in the 10 barracks? 11 A: I spoke to Glenn George at Clifford's 12 house. 13 Q: At Clifford's house. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And then you took off again? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And can you give us an idea about how 18 long you were at the barracks for? Was it a short time 19 or a -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- long time? 22 A: Very short time. 23 Q: Very short time? Would you have said 24 it was minutes? 25 A: Hmm hmm.
1031 Q: I'm sorry this -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- again. Yes. And then I think you 4 told us you went right back to the Park -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- from the barracks? And I take it, 7 it would have taken you a couple of minutes to get back 8 to the Park again? Is that -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- right? And you told us that as 11 soon as you got to the bridge to the Park you saw a bus 12 and car going through the fence. Was it still light out 13 at that time? 14 A: No, it was -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- getting darker. 17 Q: Okay. Was there some light out or 18 was it completely dark at that time? 19 A: I think it might have been -- the sky 20 was -- Geez, I'm not even sure. It was getting darker, 21 anyways, I know that. 22 Q: Okay. And you told us that you drove 23 to a Parking lot by the store; is that right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then went through the beach way?
1041 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. Where did you go after you -- 3 from the Parking lot by the store? 4 A: I went and -- I went through the 5 Parking lot at the store till I got to the other side of 6 the Parking lot and I jumped out. 7 Q: Okay. And where you jumped out, then 8 were you just on the other side of the store? 9 Can you -- I -- I'm just trying to get an 10 idea of where you Parked your car and I take it from what 11 you say it would have been north of the store? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it would have been west of the 14 store; is that right? 15 A: I just said it was north of the 16 store. 17 Q: It was only north of the store? 18 Okay. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Is it very close to the store or far 21 away from the store? 22 A: I don't know. 23 Q: Was it the Parking lot adjacent to 24 the store? 25 A: Yes, it was.
1051 Q: Okay. And so -- and then -- can you 2 tell us what you did after you went to that -- you Parked 3 your car at that Parking lot? 4 A: I got out of the car and they were 5 loading Dudley into the car, to the OPP WHO car and Judas 6 was backing up the bus. 7 Q: Okay. And did you see who got off 8 the bus? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I don't know. Everything's all -- 13 everything's all blurry right around there. 14 Q: Okay. And you told Ms. Vella of -- 15 in quite a bit of detail about the trip that you made 16 between the Park to the barracks to try and find people 17 and then your coming back on the evening of September the 18 6th. 19 Did you make any other trips out of the 20 Park other than that one trip after -- after you heard on 21 the scanner about T.R.U.? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I made numerous trips. I don't know
1061 about before or after and -- what you're trying to ask 2 me, I don't know. 3 Q: Okay. Well, what I'm trying to ask 4 you is, after you heard on the scanner, when you and 5 Cecil George were listening to the scanner, and you heard 6 about T.R.U. being called in, you've told us that -- 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm rising only because 8 this has happened a couple of times and the Witness has 9 corrected Mrs. -- Ms. Jones. 10 He indicated that the conversation he 11 recalled was something to the effect of, T.R.U. team 12 you've got a go or something and then he quite 13 specifically said it wasn't calling in the T.R.U. team. 14 I just don't want the record to be 15 confusing. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 17 enough at this point, but it may be two (2) completely 18 different things or two (2) different times. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, if I need to go 20 back, I'm happy to do that, Mr. Commissioner, because 21 there were some questions at length about the 22 conversation that Mr. Simon and Mr. George listened to 23 and it'll take me a minute to find it, but maybe it would 24 be helpful because then I can -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Was this his
1071 evidence in-chief or his evidence when Ms. Vella examined 2 him? Is that what you're referring to? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: No, I think it was 4 evidence that he was asked by other parties. 5 And I'm sorry to take a minute, but 6 perhaps it would be of assistance so we all know what was 7 being referred to. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you know 12 what is being referred to, Ms. Vella? I don't either. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: IÆm sorry I -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 15 to take -- I want to be accurate, but I don't want to 16 take too much time -- 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I was referring -- I 18 was referring to his answers on -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, yes. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- cross today. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was too. 22 Or I thought that's what you were referring to. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: The -- Mr. Simon's 24 evidence, which he gave on September 30th, he was asked a 25 number of questions and this is at page 164.
1081 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: By whom? 2 MS. KAREN JONES: They were questions, I 3 believe, by Mr. Klippenstein. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: And the question was: 6 "And you'd mentioned something about 7 understanding or hearing through the 8 scanner that the police had despatched 9 a T.R.U. team; is that right?" 10 Answer: 11 "Yes, I did." 12 Question: 13 "And did you hear that yourself on the 14 scanner?" 15 Answer: 16 "Yes, I did." 17 Question: 18 "Okay. And can you tell us about what 19 you heard on the topic of despatching 20 the T.R.U. team. Do you remember what 21 they -- what you heard?" 22 Answer: 23 "I heard them say, okay, T.R.U. team, 24 go, you're a go. And then they 25 responded, which T.R.U. team? Or they
1091 said a soft T.R.U. team or something. 2 And they said, well, which one is that? 3 There's a soft and a hard in a white 4 suburban and in a black suburban?" 5 Question: 6 "I see." 7 Answer: 8 "And they come back with a soft and 9 they say, so that's a white suburban." 10 Question: 11 "I see. And was it your interpretation 12 that those -- that the T.R.U. team was 13 being despatched to the Park?" 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Answer: 16 "Yes." 17 And then there were a number of other 18 questions -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: That's the conversation 21 that I'm referring to. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I remember 23 that. But we don't know when that conversation occurred 24 from -- from that excerpt. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: That's right.
1101 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 2 fine. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: That's right. Yeah. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 6 Q: So, after you heard that conversation 7 on the scanner, I had understood from your response to 8 Ms. Vella's questions that you looked around, didn't see 9 many people, made a trip to the barracks to try and find 10 people, came back and by the time you came back, that the 11 bus and the car were backing into the Park. 12 Is that right? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And the question I'm asking -- 15 A: Let's see. The -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: I heard -- like I heard that on the 18 scanner and we looked around and we seen there wasn't too 19 many people around -- 20 Q: Sure. 21 A: And then there was a -- a truck 22 pulled up across the road with lights on, shining towards 23 us and then it just backed up and took off again. 24 Q: Okay. Sorry a -- 25 A: Yeah, and that --
1111 Q: -- sorry, a truck pulled up -- 2 A: -- that was when -- that was when the 3 T.R.U. team got dropped off. 4 Q: Sorry, you're saying a truck pulled 5 across the road where or pulled -- 6 A: Down -- let's see, I would have been 7 -- I heard that and then I went over to the other -- at 8 the entrance and then it would have been right across on 9 East Parkway. 10 It would have been just down -- down a bit 11 from that picture there. 12 Q: Okay, let me see if I can unpack that 13 a bit. 14 You said you went to the entrance. Where 15 did you go to? 16 A: Let's see. The entrance -- there's 17 another entrance right about here somewhere down -- down 18 in this area here, there's a entrance. 19 Q: S,o what you're pointing to is -- 20 you're talking -- you're pointing to an area that is 21 south of the intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp 22 Road, south on Army Camp Road and -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- south of the sandy Parking lot. 25 A: Yes.
1121 Q: And you're saying that there's 2 another entrance in there? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And we seen the truck pull up over 6 here and it's shining its lights towards us and -- 7 Q: Okay and -- 8 A: -- backs up and takes off. 9 Q: Okay. So, I don't mean to interrupt 10 you, but one of the things that's hard when you say this 11 and there, it's hard for the record to understand what 12 you're referring to. 13 A: Oh yeah, okay. 14 Q: So, what you've done is you've used 15 the pointer and you're pointing to an area on East 16 Parkway that is right by the -- it looks like the 17 entrance to the first cottage north of East Parkway. 18 A: There's a tree line that's not on 19 this map, but it's over there a bit farther. That's 20 where the thing pulled up. 21 Q: So, you're pointing to an area then 22 that is west of the first roadway or the first driveway 23 on -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- East Parkway, closest --
1131 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- to the Park. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. So, can you help us understand 5 what the truck looked like? 6 A: It was like a light coloured truck. 7 It's shining its lights at us. It's kind of -- it's 8 getting -- there was a bunch of evergreen trees here, so 9 it's like really getting dark out in here. 10 Q: So, you're pointing to an area now 11 that's south of -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- East Parkway. 14 A: There was a bunch of trees and stuff 15 in here. It's getting really dark in the sky. It's kind 16 of lit up about -- lit up over the top of the trees so 17 it's like really hard to see down in here. 18 Q: Okay. And was it a pick-up truck or 19 can you describe the truck to us? 20 A: I don't know. We just knew it was a 21 bigger vehicle. And we see it pull up and back up and 22 turn around and take off. 23 Q: Okay. And what did you take from 24 seeing a truck drive along East Parkway towards the Park, 25 stop, back up, turn around and drive away? What did you
1141 take from that? 2 A: That they were letting off some 3 T.R.U. team members and they were getting into position 4 and something was about to happen. 5 Q: Okay. Now, you told us that you were 6 in the Park during the night of September 6th, and that 7 would have been early into September the 7th. And I 8 think you had told us that you and others burned the 9 store at that time? 10 Do you recall that? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: And you told us that you used gas to 13 do it? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And where did you get the gas from? 16 A: From the Park store -- or not the 17 Park store, but the maintenance building. 18 Q: Okay. And did you get the gas? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Who got the gas? 21 A: I don't know. 22 Q: How do you know where the gas came 23 from? 24 A: How do I know? Somebody -- 25 Q: How do you know where the gas came
1151 from? 2 A: -- went to the -- because somebody 3 went to the Park store or the maintenance shed to get 4 gas. 5 Q: Did you see a person go to the 6 maintenance shed to get gas? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. So, did someone tell you that 9 they had gone to the maintenance shed to get gas? 10 A: Yeah, somebody said that they're -- 11 somebody's gone to get some gas. 12 Q: Okay. And do you know who went to 13 get the gas? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. And were you in the Park at 16 all during the day of September the 7th? 17 A: Yes, I was. 18 Q: Okay. And what can you -- what -- 19 what were you doing in the Park on September 7th? Were 20 you there all day, or during part of the day, or -- 21 A: Just the first part of the day. 22 Q: The first part of the day? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: So, you were there in the morning of 25 the 7th?
1161 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And I understand that after 3 the night of September the 6th, that the OPP were not in 4 the areas of East Parkway and Army Camp Road, for many 5 days. Do you agree with that? 6 A: For -- what? Many days? 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: No, they were chased away the next 9 day. 10 Q: I'm sorry? 11 A: They were chased away the next day. 12 Q: On September the 7th? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Now, when you say the were 15 chased away on September the 7th, can you tell me what 16 happened on September the 7th? 17 A: No, I wasn't there. 18 Q: Okay. When you say they were chased 19 away, was it your understanding that the police were on 20 Army Camp Road and/or East Parkway, on September the 7th? 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Witness has just 22 indicated, and I know that we went through this in the 23 examination-in-chief, that he was not there. 24 I don't believe it appropriate to ask him 25 to speculate as to what the OPP were or weren't doing.
1171 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Yes. I think 2 you're right. Ask him what he knows about -- I mean, 3 that's what you've been doing, or trying to do. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, the evidence that 5 he gave in response to questions from Ms. Vella, Mr. 6 Commissioner, was that he was at the base. 7 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Yes. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: And wasn't in the Park. 9 And he's just told us now he was in the Park, and he was 10 there in the morning. So, I would like to ask him some 11 questions about what he was -- what were the activities 12 that he undertook in the Park on September the 7th, in 13 the morning, and what did he observe? 14 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Well, that's 15 not what you just asked him a minute ago. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 17 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: But if that's 18 what you're going to ask him -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 20 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: -- that makes 21 sense. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: And I -- I -- he had in 23 response to a question, that I had asked, he said that 24 they chased the OPP away. 25 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: But he said he
1181 wasn't there. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 3 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: I mean, so 4 you're now asking him about matters that he's already 5 told us he doesn't know, he wasn't there. Or -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Okay. 7 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: If you ask him 8 what you just said you were going to ask him about 9 activities that he was involved in when he was in the 10 Park in the morning -- 11 MR. KAREN JONES: Okay. 12 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: -- then that 13 makes sense. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 17 Q: And did you observe any police 18 activity on -- during the morning of September the 7th 19 around the Park? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And can you help us understand 22 what you were -- what things you were doing in the Park 23 on September the 7th? 24 A: I don't know, I went over to the 25 Parking lot, and just looking around and showing people
1191 where -- where and what was going on. I think we started 2 a fire where we found a blood spot right on a East 3 Parkway Drive. We started a fire right there where 4 Dudley got shot first -- first time he got shot. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I guess that's where he got shot up, 7 yeah, and then we started a fire right there. And we 8 started -- I don't know, we were doing all kinds of 9 stuff, we were moving blocks around, big cement blocks. 10 Q: Okay. And were -- what -- were -- 11 what were -- where were you moving the cement blocks to? 12 A: We moved them right across the road 13 on East Parkway Drive. 14 Q: Did you move them across the road on 15 East Parkway Drive so that they would block off the 16 entrance into the sandy Parking lot? 17 A: So, that it would block off East 18 Parkway Drive. 19 Q: Okay. Can you -- how -- how far down 20 East Parkway Drive where -- did you put the blocks? Were 21 they -- 22 A: Right around the --right around that 23 driveway there somewhere. 24 Q: And when you say, "that driveway", do 25 you mean that driveway that is the first driveway north--
1201 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- off East Parkway? And did you put 3 any blocks or any barriers on Army Camp Road? 4 A: Could have. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I don't recall. 7 Q: Okay. And you talked about lighting 8 a fire. And do I understand -- can you help us 9 understand where you lit the fire? 10 A: There was a blood spot -- I'm not 11 sure. I think it was on the north side of that roadway 12 right around there somewhere, and that's where we lit the 13 fire. 14 Q: Okay. And you've used your pointer 15 and you've pointed to the north side of East Parkway very 16 close to the first driveway to the north? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Is that right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And did you light any other 21 fires that day or did you see any other fires being lit 22 that day? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about that? 25
1211 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I think they lit a sacred fire for 4 Dudley in that area somewhere. 5 Q: Okay. And were there other fires in 6 addition to those two (2) that were lit on September the 7 7th in or around the Park? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: I don't know. What do you mean? 12 Q: You've told us that there was a fire 13 lit on East Parkway Drive -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: And there was another -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- fire that was lit -- 18 A: Yes, there was another one around the 19 gateway around there somewhere. I'm not too sure on its 20 exact location -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- but there was another one there 23 somewhere. 24 Q: Okay. And what else happened in the 25 Park on September 7th that you observed?
1221 A: Everybody's running around looking at 2 the -- looking at the dumpster which has got a bunch of 3 dents from bullets and looking at posts and trees, right 4 around the entrance. 5 It got all bullet holes in them, right at 6 chest level. 7 Q: And, sorry -- you are now showing -- 8 using your pointer to show an area that is east of the 9 sandy Parking lot. Is that the -- the gate into the 10 Park? 11 A: Yeah, the gateway and the fence. 12 Q: The turnstile? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I take it from what you say that 15 there was a dumpster at the gateway? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And was the dumpster in the 18 Park or outside of the Park? 19 A: It was in the Parking lot, outside of 20 the Park. 21 Q: Okay. And I take it from what you're 22 saying that there were a number of people in that area, 23 that is just inside the gate in the sandy Parking lot and 24 along East Parkway? 25 A: There's a number of people all over
1231 the place, all around here. 2 Q: Sure. And I think you had told us 3 that on September the 6th, when you and others were out 4 on the road along East Parkway that you and others, I 5 take it that you observed were picking up casings or 6 cartridges or shells from the road; is that right? 7 A: When's this? 8 Q: On the night of September the 6th -- 9 sorry, in the early morning of September the 7th? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: I don't know. We're jumping all 13 around here. 14 Q: Sure. And during the daytime on 15 September the 7th when you and many people were in by the 16 gate to the Park, and the sandy Parking lot and East 17 Parkway, did you pick up further shells or cartridges or 18 casings at that time? 19 A: Not me myself, no. 20 Q: Okay. Did you observe whether or not 21 other people picked up shells or cartridges or casings 22 from -- 23 A: No, I never. 24 Q: Pardon me? 25 A: No, I never.
1241 Q: Okay. 2 A: Not during the daytime, no. 3 Q: Okay. So, it had just been during 4 the -- 5 A: I imagine somebody could have been 6 looking around, yeah. 7 Q: Sure. And can you give us some idea 8 of about how many people would have been in that area 9 during the morning of the 7th? 10 A: Holy, probably everybody that come 11 walking down the road. 12 Q: Okay. Fifty (50), a hundred (100)? 13 A: Well, I don't know. 14 Q: Okay. I take it more than had been 15 in the Park before? 16 A: Oh, yeah. 17 Q: Oh, yeah? 18 A: Yeah, lots. 19 Q: Quite a few more people? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And they were all in and around that 22 area -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- is that right? 25 A: Yes.
1251 Q: Okay. And were you in the Park on 2 September the 9th, in the morning? Sorry, let me just go 3 back a little bit. You talked about being in the Park 4 September 7th, in the morning. What did you do after 5 that? 6 A: After that, I don't know, I was 7 getting kind of tired, so I think I went and vegged out 8 and relaxed -- tried to relax. 9 Q: Do -- did you stay in the Park, or 10 did you go to the built-up area, or did you go somewhere 11 else? 12 A: Yeah, I probably went to the built-up 13 area. 14 Q: Okay. And were you in the Park over 15 the next couple days, that is September 8th and September 16 9th? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And on September 9th, were you 19 in the area that you've talked about earlier, that is the 20 area around the gate, the Sandy Parking lot, and/or the 21 intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp Road? Were 22 you up in that area? 23 A: I'm not sure, I think we pulled back, 24 we pulled back some time right around then. We pulled 25 back to the bridge in the Park and then...
1261 Q: Okay. And when you say, We pulled 2 back to the bridge in the Park, what do you mean by that? 3 Who's we? 4 A: Everybody. 5 Q: Okay. And why did you do that? 6 A: I think Bruce and Bob, Bob Anton and 7 Bruce Elijah are meeting with the police, and kind of a 8 thing that we agreed. 9 Q: Okay. So, until the time that Bob 10 Anton and Bruce Elijah started negotiating with the 11 police, I take it you and others would have been in and 12 around that area; is that right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: That is the area around the Sandy 15 Parking lot and East Parkway and that -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- kind of thing? And during the 18 course of time that you were in that area, that is the 19 area around the sandy Parking lot and East Parkway and 20 Army Camp Road did you see any of the occupiers with 21 shovels or any other equipment, digging or moving things? 22 A: Digging or moving things? 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: With shovels?
1271 A: Oh, I don't know about shovels, but, 2 yeah, we were moving stuff around all over the place, 3 yeah. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I already said that. 6 Q: Okay. And I take it that you have 7 been living in the built-up area, or you stayed in the 8 base -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- since 1996; is that right? 11 A: Since 1995, since 1993. 12 Q: Sure, and you're there today? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. You've been there 15 continually -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- is that right? And one (1) of the 18 documents that we've seen in this from the Commission, is 19 a document that is P-26, and that is a newspaper article, 20 and that -- and it's from 1998, and it says that three 21 (3) Elders, Clifford George, Rose Manning and Nellie 22 Rogers, were forced to leave the camp by a small band of 23 younger natives, who think they're in charge of the 24 place. 25 And Clifford George was --
1281 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Excuse me, Mr. 2 Ross has an objection, I presume? 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Absolutely, Mr. 4 Commissioner, I think she should also advise the Witness 5 that when Clifford George was on the stand, he indicated 6 that he was not driven out of the camp. Thank you. 7 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Yes. What are 8 you doing now? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: As I was interrupted in 10 the middle of saying that when Clifford George -- 11 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Yes. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: -- testified, he said 13 that didn't happen. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES 17 Q: And I understand that in 1998 that 18 there were a number of people that were living in the 19 built-up area? 20 A: Does this have to do something with 21 Dudley? 22 Q: No, it doesn't. I'm asking you a 23 question about 1998 and who was in the built-up area. 24 Were you living in the built-up area at that time? 25 A: Yes.
1291 Q: Okay. And I understand that Rose 2 Manning was living in the built-up area for part of that 3 time in 1998; is that right? 4 A: Sure. 5 Q: And Nellie Rogers? 6 A: I don't know. Nellie's never really 7 committed to it. She was always packing up and taking 8 off whenever she felt like it. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. And we heard 10 some evidence from Clifford George and it was a little 11 difficult for me to understand, but he had talked about a 12 situation in which he said words to affect, that Rose 13 Manning had done something wrong and had to leave. 14 Did you -- was that something that you 15 knew about? 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I've given Counsel 17 quite a bit of latitude here. We're now speaking to 18 events that post-date events of September 6th, 1995. 19 Perhaps, Ms. Jones can explain what the relevance is with 20 respect to the mandate of this inquiry? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have no 22 idea what you're doing now. If you want to explain it, 23 it would be helpful? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. I'm asking some 25 questions, as you may recall, Mr. Commissioner, that in
1301 that article which is, I said, is article P-26, there is 2 some quotations from a number of people including Rose 3 Manning about things that had happened in the built-up 4 area and that article is dated April 14th, 1998. 5 And you'll see that there is some 6 indication in there about people with guns including a 7 group of men from outside the area from Walpole Island 8 and Oneida that had threatened and asked her to leave. 9 And I'm wanting to ask this Witness if he knows about 10 that incident. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, go on. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go on. 14 You've already asked -- all right, anything else? Just 15 if he knows about that incident? 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that a -- 18 a question that you objected to, Ms. Vella? 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm afraid it is and 20 for two (2) reasons. The first is the statements in this 21 article are not attributed to this Witness and have not 22 been in fact led in evidence as being accurate. So, 23 we're talking about a media article that's purporting to, 24 "other people who haven't testified." 25 But more importantly, Commissioner, I fail
1311 to see the relevance of any actions which may have 2 occurred in 1998 to understanding the events surrounding 3 and which gave rise to the shooting death of Dudley 4 George. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 Clifford was asked about this article I think because 7 he's mentioned -- he's mentioned in the article I think, 8 isn't he? Isn't Clifford mentioned in the article? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, he is. Yes, he 10 is. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't this 12 Witness has any connection. You can ask him, I think if 13 he knows anything about it about this alleged incident? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. And do you know 15 anything about the incident -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well it 17 isn't incident. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: -- in that article that 19 speaks of in or around April 1998, Rose Manning having to 20 leave the built-up area when she was told to by a number 21 of young men with guns? 22 THE WITNESS: Hmm -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you know 24 anything about it? 25 THE WITNESS: No. I do not know anything
1321 about the -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Please move 3 on. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 5 THE WITNESS: I've never ever heard of it 6 before. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: Okay. And I understand that Rose 10 Manning's granddaughter, Heather, is the mom of your 11 daughter Haley (phonetic); is that right? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And I understand in 1998, in or about 14 April, you were living in the built-up area? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And Heather was living in the built-up 17 area? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And you're telling us you know nothing 20 about Rose Manning leaving at that time. 21 OBJ MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Objection. 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 24 right. Move on. 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: His answer is clear.
1331 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I know. 2 You're right. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Whether or not he lived 4 at, you know -- we have who he lives with, regardless to 5 what happened between -- his answer is clear. She can 6 bring somebody to refute it, but this is an inappropriate 7 question. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 9 you're right, Mr. Ross, and I think you -- this was 10 originally put to the Witness to be fair and I think 11 we've gone way beyond that. If you have anything else to 12 ask this Witness -- you indicated you were going to be 13 about an hour, you're way passed that time. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm finished, Mr. 15 Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much, Ms. Jones. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: You're welcome. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much. Now, we have left -- it's -- thank you very 21 much. It's 1:15 and we still have left, I believe, Mr. 22 Downard, who indicated an intention to cross-examine on 23 behalf of Mr. Harris and I assumed that Mr. Ross would 24 then have an opportunity to ask any questions as a result 25 of being this Witness' Counsel and then that's it. Yes,
1341 Mr. Sulman? 2 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I don't need to come 3 forward, but we were also on the list behind Mr. Downard. 4 Much of what we'd planned to ask has been asked. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: There's still some 7 remaining and it depends on what Mr. Downard covers. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, you may 9 or may not have a couple questions? 10 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: We may or may not, 11 but we would be before Mr. Ross, just in the order. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 I think this is a good time to adjourn for lunch and 14 we'll start with you right after lunch. Thank you very 15 much. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 17 adjourned until 2:30. 18 19 --- Upon adjourning at 1:18 p.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 2:32 p.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 afternoon, Mr. Downard.
1351 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Good afternoon, sir. 2 And good afternoon, Mr. Simon. 3 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 6 Q: My name is Peter Downard and I act 7 for the former Ontario Premier, Mike Harris. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: And I just want to ask you a few 10 questions about things you said in your evidence. 11 Now, on the first day of your evidence, 12 you talked a bit about the intention of the Park 13 occupiers at the time the occupation of the Park was 14 commenced. And you said that you as a group just wanted 15 a peaceful little demonstration. Do you remember that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I'd like to ask you about a few 18 other things that have come up in your -- your evidence. 19 And the first has to do with Roderick George. I 20 understand Roderick George is known by the nickname of 21 Judas? 22 A: Yes, he is. 23 Q: And when you refer to him from day to 24 day you're more likely to refer to him as Judas than as 25 Roderick?
1361 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And, as I understand it, on 3 the evening of the 4th, the first evening of the 4 occupation, Roderick George told the police who were 5 still in the Park that they had so much time to get out 6 of the Park, right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: How much time did he give them? 9 A: I forget. I think it was like, to 10 the count of ten (10) or something like that. 11 Q: So, Roderick George didn't appear to 12 be willing to wait a long time for the police to leave? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And he wasn't giving any indication 15 that he wanted to engage in any lengthy dialogue with the 16 police about whether they should leave or not, right? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And, as I understand your evidence, 19 when the police did not leave in the time allotted to 20 them by Roderick George, Roderick George shattered the 21 rear window of a police cruiser, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And there's been some evidence and 24 banter among the lawyers about the -- what he used, the 25 particular characteristics of what he used to shatter
1371 that police cruiser window. But let me just make this 2 suggestion to you. 3 I take it you'd agree that it takes pretty 4 significant force to shatter the rear window of a police 5 cruiser, right? 6 A: Not really. Not if you hit it in the 7 right spot. 8 Q: Well, don't you have to hit it pretty 9 hard in the right spot to shatter the rear window of a 10 police cruiser? 11 A: Not really. I wouldn't say so. 12 Q: Okay. Well, would you -- I suggest 13 to you, sir, that you have to apply significant force to 14 an OPP police cruiser window before it's going to 15 shatter? 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: You had two (2) 17 answers to the same question -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 19 agree with you. 20 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- Mr. Downard. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 22 agree with you. 23 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Obviously. You've had 24 two (2) answers, a third one is I'm going to help you. 25 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, it was just
1381 another chance. Just another chance. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 4 Q: Well, sir, I suggest to you that if - 5 - that someone who breaks something, breaks somebody 6 else's property, when those people won't comply with 7 their demands, is engaging in an act of violence, 8 correct? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I don't know. I wouldn't really 13 consider that very violent. It was just -- 14 Q: If -- now, you know, you observed 15 this as it happened, right? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Verbalize your answer, please, sir. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Thank you very much. If Roderick 22 George had take the object that he used to shatter the 23 window and applied it with the same force to a human 24 being, he could have hurt such a human being very badly, 25 right?
1391 A: Hmm hmm. Depending on where he hit 2 him. 3 Q: Let's say he hit him right in the 4 head? 5 A: Hmm hmm. Depends on what part of the 6 thing he hit him with too, I guess. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With all respect -- 8 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I'm not an 10 expert on this. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With -- exactly. As 12 the Witness has indicated, he's not a -- an expert on -- 13 on this. My Friend's questions assumes facts such as 14 what the force was in fact that was used by Mr. George. 15 I think this is entirely speculative. 16 There's no doubt that Mr. Roderick George will be a 17 Witness in this proceeding. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 19 you're -- I think you're right. We know that he did 20 something to break the window. 21 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, he didn't touch 22 it with a feather. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 24 MR. PETER DOWNARD: That's pretty 25 obvious.
1401 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think 2 we -- that's pretty clear. 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: All right. So, 4 Roderick George shattered the window of the police 5 cruiser. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And he didn't hit a 7 police officer. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 10 Q: And I suggest to you that when you 11 saw Roderick George tell the police to get out of the 12 Park within a very short period time, and when they 13 didn't, that he then shattered the window of a police 14 cruiser. 15 You understood at the time that Roderick 16 George was prepared to use force to take over the Park. 17 Do you agree or not? 18 A: No, because we already had taken over 19 the Park and Roderick George just broke a window. 20 Q: And the reason he broke the window 21 was to get the police to leave, right? That was your 22 understanding at the time, right? 23 A: I don't know. Yeah. I guess so. 24 Q: All right. And he wanted them to 25 leave so that the occupiers could take over the Park,
1411 right? You understood that? 2 A: Well, we had already taken over the 3 Park. And why the OPP had -- had to be there was -- 4 there was no -- no reason for it. So, we would ask them 5 to leave and they never left. And Judas comes out and 6 said, You guys got this time -- amount of time to leave. 7 Q: And he's doing that to help the group 8 to continue its takeover of the Park, right? 9 A: Yeah, I guess so. 10 Q: Right. And so you understood that 11 Roderick George was prepared to use force to help the 12 occupiers continue their takeover of the Park. You 13 understood that at the time, right? 14 A: No. 15 Q: You didn't understand that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. All right. All right. 18 A: He broke the window and -- 19 Q: All right. Now -- 20 A: -- the cops took off. 21 Q: I beg your pardon, sir? 22 A: I said he broke the window and the 23 cops took off. 24 Q: Right. They didn't respond to him 25 with violence, right?
1421 A: Pardon? 2 Q: You just said, "He broke the window 3 and cops took off". They got out of there? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: They didn't respond in kind, right? 6 They didn't use force on Roderick George, right? 7 A: Later on they did, yeah. 8 Q: I'm asking you about the incident. I 9 know it's very funny, sir, but I'm asking you about the 10 incident involving the shattering of the police cruiser 11 window and how the police responded. 12 A: I told you, the police left. They're 13 gone. 14 Q: The police left. So, they didn't 15 respond to Roderick George with force, right? 16 A: Not then. Later on they did, I said. 17 Q: All right. Now, after the police 18 drove off, what happened? 19 A: Nothing. 20 Q: Did anybody -- pardon me? 21 A: Nothing. We just, I don't know, 22 everybody kind of hollered and cheered, Yay, the cops are 23 gone. 24 Q: Did anybody that you observed say 25 anything to Judas George about what he had just done?
1431 A: No. 2 Q: Well, let's talk about the flare. On 3 the last day, you gave evidence that you saw someone 4 throw a flare at a police officer. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Who was that? 7 A: Wesley George. 8 Q: Now, I take it that when this flare 9 is thrown, it's -- it's burning a flame in its end, 10 right, or part of the flare? 11 A: Yeah. Yeah. 12 Q: And I take it you'd agree with me 13 that if you flow -- or throw, pardon me, a -- a burning 14 flare at a human being, that human being could get hurt 15 pretty badly, right? 16 A: No. You'd see it coming, and you'd 17 just get out of the way. 18 Q: What if they didn't get out of the 19 way, sir, they could be hurt pretty badly, couldn't they? 20 It's not an expert opinion I'm asking for, sir. I'm 21 asking what you understand at the time. 22 A: Well, depending on which end you got 23 hit with the flare, I guess. 24 Q: Right. If got hit with the hot end, 25 a person could be injured, right?
1441 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And it would be fair to say that that 3 sort of conduct would be an act of violence, right? 4 A: No, I don't -- beats me -- you should 5 have seen the size of the flare. It's just a firework 6 thing. It's just a -- it's a little -- it's a shape of a 7 ball, it's about, I'd say, two (2) inches. 8 Q: So, it's just a teeny tiny little 9 thing? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Like the little weeny stick that -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- you told us about, that Roderick 14 George was using to shatter the OPP cruiser, right? 15 A: Yeah. They're not great big 16 humongous flares, the great big humongous clouds that 17 everybody's making everything out to be it's just -- 18 Q: Right. And, sir, I suggest to you 19 that when you've been giving evidence in this Inquiry 20 about the so-called little stick that Roderick George 21 used to shatter the OPP cruiser, and, as you have just 22 now, talked about the little two (2) inch flare, that you 23 have been intentionally minimizing these matters. You 24 have not been describing matters accurately and fairly. 25 A: I am describing --
1451 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Yes, 2 Mr. Ross...? 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: My Lord, with respect, 4 this Witness said clearly that it was a piece of a 5 crutch. He spoke about the stick, he went on to say it 6 was a piece of a crutch. 7 I think we all know what a crutch is. So, 8 we understand it is not a teeny weeny, as My Learned 9 Friend put it -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- we have an 12 understanding of what it is. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. That's 14 fine. 15 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Sir, My Friend, Mr. 16 Ross, with respect to him, has been far clearer and far 17 more specific about what this object was than this 18 Witness has been in his evidence. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Eventually 20 it was clarified, I think, to be a piece of a crutch. 21 That wasn't the way it was described initially. 22 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, no. Sir, at -- 23 at the second day of the Witness' evidence, and this is 24 of some importance because -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay.
1461 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- it doesn't matter 2 where Counsel has assisted the Witness by clarifying the 3 evidence. And the actual evidence at the second day of 4 testimony -- pardon me just a moment, please. Yeah. 5 Yeah. 6 At the -- on page 23 of the second day, 7 which was the 29th, the question was -- question's at 8 line 5: 9 "And what was it that he used to do 10 that?" 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Who was 12 asking that question? 13 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Pardon me for a 14 moment, please. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I believe it was, 19 yes, it's Ms. Vella. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That was 21 still Commission Counsel, Vella? 22 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 24 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay.
1471 MR. PETER DOWNARD: And the answer was: 2 "It was just a thin little piece of 3 stick. I believe it was part of a 4 crutch or something, cane or something, 5 maybe." 6 So, it's -- that may seem very clear to 7 Mr. Ross. It didn't seem so clear to me. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I -- I 9 may be wrong. I thought that came up again later on. 10 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, my 11 understanding was, when it came up later on, was when it 12 seemed to me that the submissions were clarifying rather 13 than the evidence. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 15 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Subject to 16 correction. In -- in any -- in any event -- in any 17 event, my suggestion to the Witness is what I'm just 18 going to move on from now. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 22 Q: So, sir, I take it you understood, 23 when you saw Wesley George throw the flare at the police 24 officer, that Wesley George was prepared to engage in 25 conduct that could be harmful to people for the purposes
1481 of continuing the occupation. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, Mr. Wesley 3 George will be called as a Witness and he speaks as to 4 what his intent was when that activity occurred. 5 However, this Witness can only speak as to his 6 observation and impressions. 7 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Sorry, I asked about 8 his understanding -- his understanding at the time. When 9 he saw this, what did he understand. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 11 He -- he saw him throw a flare. What did he think he was 12 doing or -- 13 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I'm asking him -- 14 well, this is a Witness who testified several times that 15 this is all a project with peaceful intent. And I'm 16 suggesting to this Witness that when he saw Wesley George 17 throw a flare at a police officer, he understood that 18 Wesley George was prepared to engage in harmful conduct, 19 conduct that could hurt people, in the course of this 20 occupation. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 22 a question. It's a question that he's asking. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay, no, I didn't believe 24 that -- or Westley George could hurt anybody with that 25 flare, I know.
1491 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 4 Q: Okay. The next thing I want to ask 5 you a bit about is the incident with the picnic tables in 6 the sandy Parking lot, at Army Camp Road/East Parkway 7 Drive on the evening of the 5th. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- Counsel for the OPPA has taken you 12 through that at some length, and I want to try to avoid 13 duplication. 14 So, just so -- I'll be brief on this. 15 It's very clear that you knew the police had wanted you 16 and your group that were in the sandy Parking lot to go 17 back in the Park, right? That's what they wanted, to 18 your understanding at the time? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And when you went back into the Park 21 you could see that they were not following you in the 22 Park, right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. So, for the time being, the -- 25 the boundary, as it were, is in place, right? That fence
1501 was acting -- serving as a bit of a boundary between the 2 two (2) sides, right? 3 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 4 Q: And even when you were back behind 5 the fence and you knew the police were not following you 6 in the Park, your group were throwing rocks at the 7 police, right? 8 A: Not right away, no. 9 Q: Okay. After a short period of time? 10 A: After they threatened us, yes. 11 Q: Well, my understand was your evidence 12 was they were throwing rocks before you were threatened. 13 Now, what do you mean by the threat? You're talking -- 14 you're talking about the evidence about an officer 15 saying, Who's going to be the first to come out of -- be 16 taken out of the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: I thought your evidence was that 19 rocks were thrown at the police before that; isn't that 20 so? 21 A: Yeah. Yes, I did. 22 Q: All right. And when your group was 23 throwing rocks, the police weren't attacking you, were 24 they? They weren't using -- they weren't throwing 25 anything at you?
1511 A: They were -- 2 Q: They weren't using force? 3 A: -- they were ramming us with cars, 4 yes, they were. 5 Q: That was -- oh, that's the ramming of 6 the picnic table with the car? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Right. And then you -- you threw the 9 -- you threw the picnic table on the car? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Right. And then you went back behind 12 the fence, right? 13 A: No. We were hanging around in the 14 Parking after they took off. 15 Q: Okay. All right. But my 16 understanding was that after you threw the picnic table 17 on the police cruiser, you went back into the Park side 18 of the fence, and the police were still there? 19 A: No. 20 Q: That's not right? Okay. 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. All right. Well, then 23 let's come to the point at which you say the police 24 officers -- sorry, after the police officers went away 25 and then they came back. They came back in formation,
1521 right? This is still -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- in the evening of the 5th, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And, as I understand it, they 6 came down East Parkway Drive towards the Park in a 7 formation? 8 A: They regrouped, I'd say just back 9 around by that driveway there, and there -- they waited 10 like for a few more cars to show up and then they come 11 back in, and then they got in formation. 12 Q: But how -- 13 A: And -- 14 Q: -- sorry. 15 A: -- I don't know, that's whenever we 16 went back into the Park. 17 Q: When the Officers came down the road 18 in formation, about how many of them were there? 19 A: About fifteen (15) maybe, ten (10), 20 fifteen (15). 21 Q: And what was the formation in which 22 they came down the road? 23 A: They came in and then they -- I don't 24 know, they came in kind of not in really any formation at 25 all, but they come in and then they assembled in
1531 formation after we were back in the Park, and then they 2 pulled up to the -- they walked into the Parking lot. 3 Q: So they established a formation once 4 they were in the Parking lot? 5 A: Yeah, yes. 6 Q: And that was along the outside of the 7 fence? 8 A: Yes. I beg your pardon? Oh I'm 9 sorry. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And these Police Officers, I 14 understand it, were wearing baseball caps on their heads? 15 A: Some of them were, yes. 16 Q: All right. And about how many of 17 them were wearing baseball caps? 18 A: Most of them. 19 Q: All right. And so the baseball caps 20 are -- they're not hard hats, right? They're soft cloth 21 hats, right? 22 A: Yeah, yes. 23 Q: All right. And after your group 24 jumped back into the Park, your group threw rocks at the 25 police again and hit the police, right?
1541 A: No, not yet. 2 Q: Sorry? 3 A: No, not yet. 4 Q: Okay. All right. Well, why don't 5 you walk me through it then. I -- I understood that 6 after the -- the police came and they were in formation 7 up along the fence, okay -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- your group was behind the fence, 10 and your group was throwing rocks at the police -- 11 A: No, we weren't -- 12 Q: -- once you were behind the fence? 13 A: -- we were -- we never threw rocks 14 until after they threatened -- like we seen them coming 15 down the road again and we went back into the Park, and 16 then they told us stay in the Park, and then they were 17 threatening us and taunting us and -- and we started 18 throwing rocks at them again. 19 Q: From inside the Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And they weren't coming into the 22 Park? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. All right. So, you were 25 attacking them with physical force, when they weren't
1551 attacking you with physical force, right? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Isn't that right? 6 A: I don't know, they were threatening 7 to use physical force, so -- but they weren't -- 8 Q: You said that -- 9 A: -- we asked them why didn't they? 10 Why don't they, come on in and see what you've got. 11 Q: The only -- the only people who were 12 using physical force, when the rocks were being thrown at 13 the police on this occasion were the occupiers, right? 14 A: Yeah, yes. Well, I threw sand at 15 them first, and then they -- they responded with mace, so 16 then we started throwing peb -- or rocks. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: And that's when we started throwing 19 rocks at them. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: There -- somebody got maced. 22 Q: Okay. All right, we'll -- we'll come 23 back to the -- the sand in a few minutes. 24 Sir, what I want to suggest to you is that 25 for example, and just -- and just talking about instances
1561 that -- that you observed. When you saw Roderick George 2 smash the cruiser window, and when you saw the flare get 3 tossed at the police officer, and when you were part of 4 the rocks -- rock throwing against the police, I suggest 5 to you that you understood that your occupation was not 6 being carried out like a peaceful little demonstration at 7 all, right? 8 You understood by then, and when you -- 9 when you observed those things, you understood that this 10 wasn't a peaceful occupation at all? 11 A: We knew that the police were going to 12 come in and do something, yes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: But we never threw any rocks until we 17 got rammed with the cruiser and then we never threw rocks 18 again until we got pepper sprayed. So it was just in 19 retaliation to what the police were doing to us. 20 Q: And the -- the pepper spray followed, 21 I think you just said -- 22 A: The mace. 23 Q: -- your throwing sand in the police 24 officer's face. 25 A: Yes.
1571 Q: And so, in that instance, the person 2 who started the violence was you. 3 A: In that instance? I was still 4 charged up from them ramming us with their cruisers so I 5 was -- well, they started it, the way I see it. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Now, you said in your evidence, 10 several times in slightly different ways, that no one 11 among the occupiers wanted to be a spokesperson with the 12 OPP because nobody wanted to be seen to be the leader. 13 And I quote your evidence, you said that -- it's at Page 14 33 of the second day that, quote: 15 "Nobody wanted to be seen as a leader 16 of the occupation for fear of being 17 targeted for arrest or other things." 18 Unquote. You recall that evidence you 19 gave? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: As I understand it, after the 22 takeover of the built-up area of the Army Camp at the end 23 of July 1995, or least at that time, the heads of the 24 families of occupiers were the people who governed the 25 occupation, is that fair?
1581 A: Yes. 2 Q: And Roderick George is one (1) of the 3 heads of the families? 4 A: Yes, he was. 5 Q: And I take it you'd agree with me 6 that Roderick George, as far as you could observe when 7 you saw the -- the window smashing incident, didn't have 8 any trouble in stepping forward and telling police they 9 had only so much time to get out of the Park, right? 10 A: I'm not sure. It just seemed like 11 Judas just got there and then some -- I don't know, 12 somebody could have told him to go and tell the police to 13 get out of there. I don't know. 14 Q: But it's -- 15 A: I'm not sure what -- why he was 16 there, why he wasn't there. 17 Q: But -- 18 A: Ask him. 19 Q: -- as far as you could observe, sir, 20 there wasn't any hesitation about his acts, right? He 21 told them that they had a very short amount of time to 22 get out and when they didn't get out, he broke the 23 window. 24 He wasn't very hesitant in his conduct was 25 he?
1591 A: No. 2 Q: And I suggest to you that -- that he 3 appeared to you to be anything but afraid of speaking up 4 to the OPP. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: He didn't strike you -- well, pardon 9 me -- 10 A: Well, he -- he said that he didn't 11 want to be part of no spokesman. Everybody didn't want 12 to be, because... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Well let's come to the point about 17 the -- the sand, when you threw the sand in the police 18 officer's face in the evening of the 5th. 19 As I understand your evidence, what 20 happened was that the -- the police were asking who -- or 21 a police officer was -- was asking who was going to be 22 the first to get -- get dragged out -- or, pardon me, no, 23 you changed that, sorry. 24 Which would be -- who would the first one 25 to be taken out, right? Is that -- that fair?
1601 A: What was it? Something like that. 2 They wanted a -- they were going to take us out and 3 welcome us to Canada, they said. Something to that 4 effect. Welcome to Canada, who's going to be the first 5 one to come on out. 6 Q: And your response to that was to 7 throw sand in the police officer's face? 8 A: After he singled out Dudley. 9 Q: And as I recall your evidence, you 10 were so close to that police officer when you threw sand 11 at his face, that you could see that he had light 12 coloured hair and that his eyes were of a lighter colour; 13 do you recall that evidence you gave? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: So, you're so close to him, that you 16 can see those fine details and recall those fine details 17 today about the police officer. I take it you'd agree 18 that he would have been able to see what you looked like 19 too; correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And he would have been able to 22 -- you would have expected that he would have been able 23 to identify you in the future, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I take it you understood that if
1611 you throw sand in a police officer's face, you're taking 2 a significant risk that you might be arrested, right? 3 A: I don't know, I guess so, yeah. 4 Q: But you didn't hesitate for one 5 second to throw that sand in that police officer's face, 6 right? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And, about the evening of the 6th, 9 and I know there are various points on the 6th when 10 you're in the Park, you're back in the Camp, back and 11 forth, and I know your observation of the very serious 12 events that took place at the Park on that day is very 13 limited, you were only there for part of the time. 14 But I need to get a little bit clearer on 15 this: When you were at the Park on the evening of the 16 6th, and I understood you to say that you became aware of 17 Gerald George's presence, you observed him there, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And so when you were down at the Park 20 on that evening, I believe you said, and correct me if 21 I'm wrong, this is from this morning, I believe you said 22 that there were some occupiers in the sandy Parking lot? 23 You saw them? 24 A: Yes, there was. 25 Q: And did they have baseball bats?
1621 A: Yeah, I think so, maybe. 2 Q: Okay. And, I take it you agree with 3 me that your understanding at the time, was that these 4 people are -- are perfectly willing to stand out on the 5 road with baseball bats in a way that might cause police 6 to identify them as occupiers in the Park who the police 7 might want to interfere with? 8 A: Yeah, I don't know. 9 Q: Well, my point -- 10 A: I'm not sure what you mean here? 11 Q: -- my point is this, you understood - 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- that -- that these people weren't 14 afraid to be going out in the sandy Parking lot where 15 they could be seen with baseball bats, right? Correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And, so what I -- also let's 18 talk about the person -- the person with -- the person 19 with the flare, the person with the flare. I take it 20 that the person who threw the flare at the police officer 21 didn't strike you as somebody who was afraid to confront 22 the police, right? 23 A: Nobody was. 24 Q: Right. Nobody -- nobody was. 25 A: We just didn't want to be seen as a -
1631 - a leader, nobody wanted to be seen as a leader. 2 Q: Okay. Well, sir, what I suggest to 3 you is that in fact, contrary to what you said earlier, 4 you observed that numerous occupiers of the Park, in 5 fact, did not have any fear of being targeted for arrest; 6 do you agree? 7 A: Everybody that went there, they 8 weren't afraid of getting arrested, they were just afraid 9 of getting targeted as being a leader because of things 10 that happened to other people that were leaders of 11 different occupations. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: We already know we're going to go to 14 jail for, or get charged, or something out of this. 15 Q: What I -- what I suggest to you, sir, 16 is that the occupiers of the Park -- and I'm just putting 17 to you a position -- that the Occupiers of the Park were 18 refusing to communicate with the OPP for reasons other 19 than this fear of being targeted that you have told us 20 about. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: What do you say that? 23 A: Yeah. I said -- I think I said 24 earlier that we knew that the police were seeking an 25 injunction and somebody had knowledge that the police
1641 would have had to serve somebody with some kind of a 2 notice before they could act upon that injunction, so 3 nobody else wanted to meet with the Cops over that. 4 Q: Well, sir, as I understood your 5 evidence, when the Commission Counsel was examining you, 6 you had participated in -- in five (5) or six (6) 7 demonstrations regarding Stoney Point in the late 70's 8 and -- and 80's Correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And so that would be from -- roughly 11 from the time you were about five (5) to the time you 12 were about seventeen (17)? 13 A: Yeah, some time around there. Yeah. 14 Q: And as I understand it those were 15 protests about the Federal Government having taken the -- 16 the Reserve to turn it into an Army Camp, right? And not 17 having given it back. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: These were protests, as I understand 20 your evidence, where protesters would walk around with 21 signs outside the entrance of the Army Camp? 22 A: Yes. Sometimes they'd pass out 23 leaflets along the highway or whatever. 24 Q: Right. So -- 25 A: Just --
1651 Q: Pardon? 2 A: -- along those lines, yeah. 3 Q: And the signs would have messages on 4 them about your Group's point of view about the Army Camp 5 situation? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Because you wanted to communicate a 8 message to the Public? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And likewise, the pamphlets were 11 handed out because you wanted to communicate a message to 12 the Public about the Army Camp issue. Right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And as I understand it, during the 15 course of the occupation of the Park, there weren't any 16 protest signs. Is that correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And during the occupation of the Park 19 there wasn't any handing out of literature. Right? 20 A: No, not that I recall. 21 Q: And you've mentioned, I believe in 22 your -- your evidence that during the course of the 23 occupation, significant media attention was attracted and 24 there would be media people outside the Park fence with 25 cameras and their various hardware. Right?
1661 A: Yes. 2 Q: And as I understand it, from your 3 evidence this morning, one (1) of the things you'd do 4 with a spotlight is shine a light at the -- the media. 5 Right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And why were you doing that? 8 A: I don't know. 9 Q: To make them go away? Is that fair? 10 A: I don't know why. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I don't know why. 13 Q: As -- as I understand it, though, the 14 -- the -- your perception of the attitude of the 15 Occupiers toward the media at the time was that they 16 didn't want to talk to the media? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And we've -- we've been through it -- 19 and I'm not going to duplicate it -- how members of -- of 20 the occupying group didn't want to talk to the -- the 21 police. Right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you testified that prior to the 24 occupation there had been messages of one (1) sort or 25 another given to Park officials and police numerous times
1671 that the Stoney Point people were going to take over the 2 Park. Right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I -- I take it that as far as you 5 understood it, once the Stoney Point people had taken 6 back the Army Camp, they didn't intend, or didn't have 7 any intention, of giving the Army Camp back to the 8 Federal Government, right? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Can you verbalize that, sir, so -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: Thank you. And similarly, I take it 13 that, as far as you understood it, once the Stoney Point 14 people took over the Park, the Park -- or pardon me, the 15 occupiers didn't have any intention of giving the Park 16 back to the Government, right? 17 A: Not no more. 18 Q: I beg your pardon? 19 A: Not no more. 20 Q: Not no more? 21 A: No. 22 Q: I'm asking you what your -- the -- 23 your perception of the group's intention at the time? At 24 the time you started the occupation? 25 A: I don't know, yeah, I guess.
1681 Q: And, sir, I want to suggest to you 2 something that -- I want to suggest to you that the 3 reason the occupiers weren't talking to the police, and 4 as you perceived it, didn't want to talk to the media, 5 was that there was really nothing to talk about. The 6 purpose of the exercise was to take over the Park, right? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. PETER DOWNARD: We'll -- we'll -- we 11 can -- I'll break -- I'll break at 10:00. 12 Thank you very much for that. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 17 Q: I suggest to you, sir, that the 18 reason the occupiers didn't talk to the police and didn't 19 talk to the media, was because this occupation was not 20 about communicating a message, it was about taking over 21 the Park, right? 22 A: No, that's not why we didn't talk to 23 the police or anything like that. 24 Q: Okay. Let me ask you a bit about the 25 -- the firecrackers.
1691 You've testified at numerous points about 2 how you'd heard firecrackers and fireworks inside the 3 Park that sounded like gunshots, right? 4 A: Well, I said, yeah, they could have 5 sounded like gunshots. 6 Q: Well -- and just so I'm clear, I 7 understand that you appreciate at the time, that the 8 sound of these fireworks going off sounded like gunshots? 9 A: I thought they sounded like 10 fireworks. 11 Q: Well -- 12 A: That's how come I knew they were 13 fireworks. 14 Q: Okay. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And are you saying that they -- they 19 sounded like fireworks to you? 20 A: Yeah, if they sounded like gunshots I 21 would have probably went and would have really wanted to 22 know what it was that was making gunshots. 23 Q: And I take it you're saying that 24 because you're a person who's experienced with firearms 25 and you believe that you can discern the difference
1701 between the sound of fireworks and the sound of a 2 gunshot, is that fair? 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Excuse me, I would 4 remind you that -- 5 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Mr. Ross, I'm 6 sorry we have to -- you have to cooperate up there, it 7 may not be the easiest thing -- 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Sorry. 9 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: -- in the 10 world. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Especially for us 12 little guys. 13 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: That's fine. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, this 15 morning counsel went through this with this witness, 16 about this automatic gunfire -- 17 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- he spoke about them 19 being fireworks, he spoke about working about Novell Gas 20 Station, and that's where he heard automatic fire down at 21 the Camp, but he said that these were fire -- fireworks 22 that he was hearing. This is what he told -- his 23 evidence was today. 24 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Well, but he 25 also said that he thought he knew automatic gunfire from
1711 television -- 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Yes, from television. 3 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: -- if I recall. 4 Not from being an expert. 5 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, I haven't asked 6 a word about automatic gunfire. 7 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No? 8 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I haven't had -- no, 9 I released him on automatic gunfire -- 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Okay. 11 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- I just asked about 12 gunfire. This witness has testified -- 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Okay. 14 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- several times that 15 firework sounds like gunfire. And I'm asking him how 16 does he know. How does he know that -- that fireworks 17 may sound like gunfire or may not be gunfire. Maybe 18 that's two (2) questions. Two (2) questions. Okay. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 21 Q: You were saying that the fireworks, 22 to you, sounded like fireworks? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: It didn't sound like gunfire to you? 25 A: Yes.
1721 Q: Okay. 2 A: But I also said I could see, like, 3 how it would sound like fireworks -- or it sounded to 4 gunshots to somebody who wouldn't really know or somebody 5 in the distance. 6 Q: But for somebody who -- who really 7 knew, who really knew what a gunshot like, such as 8 yourself, that would help you to tell the difference; 9 right? 10 A: Yeah, I guess. 11 Q: Right. And so if you have somebody 12 else who really knows what gunshots sound like, for 13 example, a police officer very experienced with firearms, 14 I'd take it you'd agree that they'd be able to tell the 15 difference between a gunshot and the sound that fireworks 16 make; right? 17 A: I don't know. Yeah, I guess, if they 18 were close enough. 19 Q: Now, did it -- did it occur to you, 20 when people are lighting up all these fireworks, at the 21 time, that somebody outside the Park might think that 22 there were gunshots in the Park? Or is that just 23 something you -- that's struck you since? 24 A: I don't know. It wasn't me that was 25 lighting the fireworks, so I didn't really care, didn't
1731 really -- I don't know, it didn't bother me. 2 Q: So you just -- you didn't think about 3 the point at the time; is that right? 4 A: Yeah. Yes. 5 Q: Did you see anybody attempt to 6 discourage any people from lighting off firecrackers and 7 fireworks? 8 A: Not that I recall. 9 Q: Now, but let me -- let me just ask 10 you this. I'm not suggesting to you what the answer is 11 on this or not, but did you have any discussions with 12 anybody or did you have any belief at the time that 13 people might be setting off fireworks to perhaps play a 14 bit of a mind game with people outside the Park? Perhaps 15 scare people outside the Park into perhaps thinking that 16 there were guns in the Park, when you say there weren't 17 any? 18 A: Do I -- did I what? 19 Q: Did -- it was long. It was long. 20 A: Yeah, it's a long time ago. 21 Q: Is it possible that people were 22 setting off the fireworks and the firecrackers to spook 23 people outside the Park, to scare people outside the 24 Park? I'm not asking for speculation -- 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: You are saying "is it
1741 possible", anything is possible. 2 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You asked 7 him if there was any discussion or if he had any belief 8 at the time about what you're saying. 9 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't. 10 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thanks. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 13 Q: Now, you told us about the mirrors 14 being shone at -- at the media? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And how big were those 17 mirrors? 18 A: I don't know. A foot by a foot and 19 half or something like that. The size you see in the 20 bathrooms. 21 Q: Is that where they came from? 22 A: Yes, I think so. 23 Q: So the occupiers took the -- the 24 mirrors out of the Park bathrooms? 25 A: Yes.
1751 Q: All right. And you didn't believe 2 you had any right to own those mirrors; did you? They 3 were the Park's mirrors; right? You just took them? 4 A: They were the Park's mirrors but, 5 yeah, we just took them. 6 Q: Right. And the same thing with the 7 picnic tables that were stacked up in the Park and that 8 you chose to use for firewood; right? You knew those 9 were the Park's picnic tables; right? 10 A: Yeah, but they didn't look very 11 healthy to me. 12 Q: You didn't ask any permission -- 13 A: I didn't -- 14 Q: -- before you burned them; did you? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No? So you just took them; right? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And the same thing with the gasoline; 19 right? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: understood that was the Park's 22 gasoline from its large gasoline tank, right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you didn't believe you had any 25 right to own that gasoline, did you?
1761 A: I don't know. Yeah, I guess so. 2 It's there, might as well use it. 3 Q: Yeah, but you understood it was -- it 4 was the Park's gasoline? 5 A: Sure. 6 Q: All right. And -- but you just took 7 it? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I -- I didn't understand your 10 evidence. When you spoke about putting the picnic tables 11 -- and counsel this morning touched on this -- this with 12 you. And I'll just deal with this briefly. You spoke 13 about putting the picnic tables in the sandy Parking lot. 14 And that you did that to close the sandy 15 Parking lot off to the public in case quote, "rednecks" 16 unquote, pulled up and started to yell obscenities and 17 wanted to cause trouble, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what -- what I don't understand 20 is that -- and maybe you can help me with this, if you 21 close off the Parking lot so these troublesome people 22 can't bother you, isn't the case that they could just 23 stop their cars out on the paved road and bother you from 24 there if they wanted to, right? 25 A: Sure. But they're not going to Park
1771 their car along the side of the road and come in and 2 bother us. 3 Q: All right. Well I guess what I -- 4 A: Well, we were getting problems with 5 on the other side of the Park -- well there's a Parking 6 lot like that on the other side of the Park and we were 7 getting problems with people doing that. Coming and 8 Parking up there and then they were coming inside and 9 causing problems for everybody that was occupying the 10 military base. 11 And we seen, like we figured the cops 12 wouldn't have reacted the way they did and we thought, 13 you know, that they're going to pull down our barr -- 14 roadblock soon and then they're going to take off and the 15 general public's going to be able to come up here and use 16 this road -- or use this thing and do exactly what they 17 did before when we were at the military base. 18 Q: Well I -- I guess -- I guess what I'm 19 having trouble with is, what's -- what's the difference 20 between people bothering you from the Parking lot and 21 people bothering you from the paved road? Can't you be 22 equally bothered? 23 A: Just what I said, they are not going 24 to be able to Park their car -- they're not going to 25 leave their car on the side of the road, whereas over --
1781 they're not going -- whereas if there's a Parking lot 2 there, they're going to leave it in the Parking lot. 3 Q: It -- well, sir, what I suggest to 4 you is that the main reason, as far as you understood, 5 that these picnic tables were being put out in the 6 Parking lot was that the group wanted to claim the 7 Parking lot as part of the land it was taking over in 8 connection with the Park occupation. Is that fair? 9 A: Sure. And we didn't want it open to 10 the general public where they could come and Park their 11 cars and come in and cause problems for us like they do 12 and like they have done in the past. 13 Q: Now, sir, I just want to ask you a 14 little bit about your background. We've heard a lot of 15 evidence about -- and some -- to counsel about the 16 important role that you played in the last period of time 17 in establishing the -- the Stoney Point community at the 18 former Army Camp and we've heard evidence about the 19 things you've done for the community and -- and your 20 skill as a hunter and you're sharing food and so on. 21 I just want to get a -- a slightly fuller 22 sense of where you were at in your life at the time of 23 these particular events, just by way of background. And 24 so at the time you went into the Army Camp in May of 1993 25 when -- when you first started to camp there, had you
1791 completed your schooling at that time? 2 A: Nope. I was working for construction 3 somewhere. 4 Q: Yeah. Well I asked you whether you'd 5 completed your -- 6 A: No. And then I said I was working 7 and I was working for a construction somewhere at the 8 time. 9 Q: Sure, okay. But had -- had you -- 10 had you left school? 11 A: Pardon? 12 Q: You had -- I take it you'd left 13 school? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Right. And when did you leave 16 school? 17 A: 1990. 18 Q: And what did you do from 1990 to 19 1993, in terms of -- you know, what you did with your 20 life, what you -- your job, or whatever. 21 A: Just went to work, and -- yeah. 22 Q: You were working at construction all 23 that period. 24 A: Yes, yeah. 25 Q: And did you continue doing that
1801 between 1993 and 1995. 2 A: Yes, off and on again. 3 Q: Off and on? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: About how -- 6 A: And still do. I still do it off and 7 on still. 8 Q: Okay. How -- how regular was -- was 9 that -- that work between 1993 and 1995 when you say, Off 10 and on? 11 A: Quite regular. 12 Q: Okay. That's fine. Thank you. I'm 13 sorry. Thank you. And I wanted just to touch on the 14 matter of a claim of a burial ground in the Park. 15 And in the first day of your evidence you 16 were examined by Commission Counsel. You said that prior 17 to the occupation of the Park it had come out that there 18 was a burial ground in the Park and it was supposed to be 19 set aside and marked and it was not. 20 Do you recall that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. What I want to suggest to you 23 is that there will be evidence -- I anticipate there will 24 be evidence given in this Inquiry that a -- a resolution 25 of the Kettle and Stoney Point Band Council to exactly
1811 that effect was indeed discovered. But that it was not 2 discovered by the Provincial Government or, for that 3 matter, the Kettle and Stoney Point Band, the Indian Act 4 Band until after the -- the terrible events of September 5 6th. 6 Could you be in error in your evidence 7 that this is something that had come to your attention 8 before the Park occupation commenced? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Let me think. Maybe. I'm thinking - 13 - let's see. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: No, because the story family -- the 18 old story that I heard a long time ago was that there was 19 a burial ground in there and it was supposed to be marked 20 and it wasn't. 21 Q: Okay. Fair enough, sir. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And you -- you spoke in your evidence
1821 about spotlighting the helicopter over the Army Camp, 2 right when the -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And when you put the spotlight on the 5 helicopter, what was your intention? 6 A: Just trying to light it up and see 7 where it was, because it was flying in. It was seemed 8 like it was flying really low and it wasn't -- it didn't 9 have no lights on or nothing, like to tell where it was. 10 Q: It is possible you were trying to 11 scare the people in the helicopter a little bit? 12 A: I'm trying to scare the army with a 13 helicopter -- with a flashlight? 14 Q: With a spot light. 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. Right. If there was -- 17 if there was some -- forget it. If there was someone on 18 the ground who wanted to shoot a helicopter, if they lit 19 it up with a spotlight, that would make the helicopter an 20 easier target, right? 21 A: I don't know. I wasn't around when 22 the helicopter got shot. 23 Q: You can't answer that question 24 because you weren't around when the helicopter got shot? 25 A: No.
1831 Q: But you were around when the 2 spotlight was put on the helicopter? 3 A: Sure. 4 Q: And you put it on the helicopter, 5 right? 6 A: Sure. 7 Q: Right. And if somebody had wanted to 8 shoot at the helicopter, or throw something at a 9 helicopter, it would make it a lot easier for that 10 helicopter to be a target if it was lit up, right? 11 A: I don't know, I couldn't even really 12 see the helicopter. 13 Q: Oh, you couldn't, could you? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Oh, that's too bad. Thanks very 16 much, sir. 17 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Thank you very 18 much. Does Mr. Schulman have any questions? 19 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: Good afternoon, 20 Commissioner. 21 MR. COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Good afternoon. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: 24 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Simon, my name is 25 Trevor Hinnegan, and I'm here on behalf of Marcel
1841 Beaubian, who was the local member of Provincial 2 Parliament at the relevant times, and I just have a few 3 questions for you. 4 Mr. Simon, you told us that after the Army 5 Base had been taken over, new entrances were created 6 along Highway 21, is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And how many entrances were created? 9 A: Two (2) more. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: Two (2) more along the front, and 12 there was probably another one (1) -- two (2) more along 13 the sides. 14 Q: And these new entrances, did they 15 allow vehicles to pass through? 16 A: Yeah, yes, they did. 17 Q: And from time to time vehicles did, 18 in fact, pass through these entrances, is that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Now, in the period from September 4th 21 to September 6th, 1995, when people came to the Army Base 22 and the Park, do I understand it correctly that they 23 entered through these new entrances, or was it the old 24 entrances? 25 A: The old entrances.
1851 Q: And when people came on the 4th and 2 5th of September, in particular, of 1995, I take it some 3 stayed overnight, is that right? 4 A: Some of them did, yes. 5 Q: And among those individuals who 6 stayed overnight at that time, being September 4th and 7 5th again, of 1995, did that include any of the 8 individuals who had experience at other occupations? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Yes, probably. 13 Q: And when the individuals came on 14 those particular days and to come and stay overnight, did 15 they bring their supplies with them, clothes, et cetera? 16 A: Yes, some of them did, yes. 17 Q: Backpacks, coolers, things like that? 18 A: Yeah. Yes. 19 Q: And did anyone search -- search their 20 supplies, packs, luggage, anything like that, when they 21 came in? 22 A: Yes, usually, yeah, we -- 23 Q: Was -- was -- 24 A: -- they were bringing -- they were 25 usually bringing a bunch of donations and stuff, so
1861 they'd just pull right over to the kitchen, and we'd go 2 right in their cars and unload everything out. 3 Q: But was there a formal protocol set 4 up for searching of supplies or packs that people were 5 bringing in? 6 A: Nothing formal. 7 Q: No. Did you ever search -- 8 A: Not like -- 9 Q: -- anyone? 10 A: -- not like the borders or nothing 11 like that, no. 12 Q: Were you ever involved in any of the 13 search of the -- the supplies, equipment coming in? 14 A: Let's see. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Wouldn't really call them a search, 19 but, yeah, we pretty much cleaned out -- like we did 20 clean out a lot of people's cars, vehicles. 21 Q: So just to clarify, it was more or 22 less assisting the people bringing their things in -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- rather than actually searching 25 their -- their things?
1871 A: Yeah. At the same time you'd pretty 2 much see what they had. 3 Q: In your evidence, you've repeated 4 several times that you personally didn't have any 5 firearms in the Park or the Army Base, in the period of 6 September 4th to September 6th, 1995, is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And your evidence has also been that 9 members of the Kettle and Stoney Point Band didn't bring 10 firearms into the Army Base and the Park, is that 11 correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you've been quite certain in that 14 evidence that you've given in this regard, right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: But I want to go back to the question 17 about the search then. Without having a formal protocol 18 for a search in place, or -- let me go back and say, can 19 you say with any certainty that everybody that came in 20 had all their possessions searched? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And without knowing that, how can you 23 be so certain whether or not they brought firearms into - 24 - into the area? 25 A: I don't know. I don't.
1881 Q: On September 30th of this year in your 2 previous testimony, my notes indicate that you told Ms. 3 Tuck-Jackson that from time to time after May of 1993 4 some of the Occupiers had conversations with cottagers in 5 the area and something to the effect was, quote: 6 "We've -- we've taken over the army 7 base now and we're going to take over 8 your cottages, too." 9 Is -- is -- do you recall that that's the 10 gist of what you said? 11 A: Some people could have said that, 12 yeah. 13 Q: And did these -- this type of 14 conversation happen more than once or was it just a one 15 (1) time -- 16 A: It could have happened more than once. 17 Q: I just want to be clear where these 18 discussions took place with the cottagers. Was it along 19 Army Camp Road or was it on the other side near Outer 20 Drive? 21 A: It would have been probably out on the 22 other side and probably by the Park there because we 23 would have been -- it would have been before we were in 24 the Park. 25 Q: So, primarily, it would have been on
1891 the other side near Outer Drive? 2 A: Near Outer Drive, but there was always 3 people that would come down and come through the Park and 4 then they were always asking questions and stuff like 5 that. 6 Q: Mr. Simon, I'd just like to return to 7 the issue of the fireworks, briefly. You may recall Mr. 8 Klippenstein asking you whether people were lighting 9 firecrackers, fireworks which were tied together in a -- 10 or were in a package together so that they would go off 11 one (1) after another. 12 Do you recall that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And is it correct that your testimony 15 was that the firecrackers were purchased at a local 16 store? 17 A: Yeah, some of them. 18 Q: What was the name of that local store? 19 A: I'm not sure what it's called -- the 20 Hole in the Fence Store -- is what everybody called it. 21 Q: Do you know where it was? 22 A: Yeah. Yes. 23 Q: Where was it? 24 A: Jeez, I'm not sure what -- it's right 25 along Army Camp road, anyway. It's just on the other
1901 side of the fence from the military base. 2 Q: Had you ever purchased any 3 firecrackers there? 4 A: Not personally, no. 5 Q: And do you recognize a difference 6 between fireworks that go up in the air when they're lit 7 and firecrackers that come in small packages -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: -- which can go off in succession? 10 A: Yeah. Yes. 11 Q: And the firecrackers that you've been 12 referring to in your testimony, those are firecrackers 13 rather than fireworks. Is that correct? 14 A: They are both. 15 Q: So there was both firecrackers and 16 fireworks -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- being used? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much. Did you have some questions? 23 MR. AL O'MARRA: Yes, five (5) minutes' 24 worth, at that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay.
1911 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 3 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Simon. 4 A: Good afternoon. 5 Q: My name is Al O'Marra. I'm Counsel to 6 the Chief Coroner and we're seeking to assist the 7 Commission with respect to the availability of emergency 8 medical services and other medical services in and around 9 the time of September 6, 1995. 10 Now, sir, as I understand your evidence 11 earlier that -- and I'm -- and I'm just concentrating on 12 September 5 and 6, that during those dates you were in 13 the -- the Camp or the Park? 14 A: Both. 15 Q: Okay. Were you outside of the Camp or 16 the Park? 17 A: Outside of the Camp or the Park? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Just around the edges, yeah. 20 Q: All right. And you did indicate at 21 one (1) point you were in the -- the sandy Parking lot 22 area? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And I understood your evidence 25 earlier that you could also make observations around East
1921 Parkway Drive, from where you were, either on the edges 2 of the Park or in the sandy Parking lot? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And I understood your evidence 5 that -- that you observed what you consider to be a 6 buildup of police services, police personnel? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And others were -- made those 9 observations as well? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And were there people coming 12 in to the Park, either through the Army Base or 13 otherwise, that were providing information about the 14 buildup -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- in the area? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now, I anticipate that we will hear 19 evidence at some time during September 5, or later, that 20 the St. John's Ambulance provided a vehicle that was 21 brought into the area of East Parkway Drive. 22 Did you have any knowledge of that, either 23 by your own observation or by the observation of others, 24 brought to your attention during that time? 25 A: Not during that time, no.
1931 Q: Okay. So nobody expressed any 2 concerns to you, nor did you express any concerns about 3 it, St. John's Ambulance being in the area? 4 A: Maybe, but I think there's -- there 5 was usually a Ambulance that used to hang around in 6 Raven's Wood there sometimes. 7 Q: Just generally? 8 A: Yeah, like it's -- 9 Q: Not specific to this event? 10 A: No. 11 Q: To this circumstance? 12 A: No, it would just usually sit around 13 there sometimes. 14 Q: All right. After the events of 15 September 6, did you have knowledge that there is a St. 16 John's Ambulance vehicle on East Parkway Drive? 17 A: I think so. 18 Q: Okay. And -- and what information 19 did you have about it? 20 A: That there were -- that there was 21 ambulances there. 22 Q: On East Parkway Drive? 23 A: Yeah. And that they had been there 24 the night before. 25 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Simon. Those
1941 are my questions. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. Now, Mr. Ross, is this is a good time for us 4 to take a break? How long do you think you might be, Mr. 5 Ross? It is a quarter to four now. Should we start -- 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: It might be 7 appropriate to take a break, Mr. Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you still 9 want to make some estimate of how long you might be? 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: The best part of an 11 hour. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 13 Because then we have only re-examination, if any, by 14 Commission Counsel, so we might get finished with this 15 today. 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: We probably will get 17 finished today. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I think 19 this would be a good time to take a break. 20 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And with the break I 21 think I will be able to just hone and sort of cut out a 22 lot of that time. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much, Mr. Ross. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess
1951 for fifteen (15) minutes. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 3:45 p.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 4:00 p.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Mr. 9 Ross...? 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Just a second. 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 14 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Simon. For the 15 record only, I will introduce myself as Anthony Ross. 16 Now, Mr. Simon, in response to some 17 questions in cross-examination, there are two (2) 18 matters, among others, that I'd like to clear up. 19 One (1) is you indicated to Mr. Downard, 20 that there was some discussion -- sorry, Mr. Downard put 21 it to you that there was some discussion between some of 22 the protestors and some cottage owners. And you were 23 tentative in your answer, you did not just specifically 24 whether you were there and heard something, it was a kind 25 of a maybe.
1961 It is with respect to people saying to 2 cottagers that they're going to take over their cottages. 3 Do you remember that series of questions with Mr. 4 Downard? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did you at any time tell any 7 cottagers that you were going to take over their 8 cottages? You personally? 9 A: No, not myself, no. 10 Q: Were you present when anybody said to 11 any of the cottagers, we're going to take over your 12 cottage? 13 A: Not that I recall. 14 Q: But then I take it that you might 15 have heard talk, there might have been such discussions? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, the other thing about these 18 bats, these baseball bats and other sticks and, for want 19 of better terms, weapons that were carried around from 20 time to time, when did people start carrying these 21 weapons? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Let's see, I'd say right on the night
1971 of the 6th. 2 Q: But what about prior, in 1993 -- 3 A: Like we -- 4 Q: -- when you were on the -- on the 5 range, was anybody carrying weapons? 6 A: When we were on the range? 7 Q: In 1993? 8 A: No, I don't really recall us carrying 9 weapons around then, no. 10 Q: Okay. Now, my understanding is that 11 prior to 1993, Maynard George and some others had always 12 been agitating for the return of the Stoney Point lands, 13 is that your understanding? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And as a result of that, there was 16 the occupation of a section of the lands in 1993 -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- did you understand that to be so? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that was with Maynard George as 21 the leader of the group, so to speak? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And had established himself, or was 24 established by the group, as the Chief? 25 Don't nod to me.
1981 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yes. And I understand further that 5 this continued up until around August of 1993, when for 6 some reason, Maynard was no longer Chief from about the 7 middle of August 1993, when the duties of Chief were 8 taken over by Carl George? 9 A: Yes, somewhere around there, yeah. 10 Q: And I understand that with Carl 11 George, there was a form of election at Stoney Point? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And my -- my understanding is that 14 the people who were also elected was Glenn George as a 15 Councillor, correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Gordon Cloud as a Councillor? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Burt -- Burt Manning as a Councillor? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Bruce Manning as a Councillor? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Clifford George as a Councillor? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And Hubert George?
1991 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes. So, these people were the 3 leaders of the group, from around the middle of August 4 1993? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I understand that as a result of 7 their having taken over leadership, they engaged in 8 discussions with the Federal -- with -- with the 9 Department of Defence, through an officer by the name of 10 Fred Maguire (phonetic)? And they had discussions with 11 Fred Maguire, which resulted in Department of National 12 Defence identifying a two hundred (200) metre by two 13 hundred (200) metre area for the occupation of the Stoney 14 Pointers? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And when you were in occupation of 17 that two hundred (200) metre by two hundred (200) metre 18 area I understand that it was up next to the rifle range 19 on Highway 21? 20 A: Yeah, I was by one of the rifle 21 ranges. 22 Q: Yes. And as far as incidents were 23 concerned, you had very few confrontational incidents in 24 1993; am I correct with that? 25 A: Correct.
2001 Q: But there was also the incident where 2 it has been reported that a helicopter was fired upon; 3 you heard about that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And during 1993 or early 1994 there 6 was also a major march from Stoney Point to Ottawa with a 7 substantial number of names on a petition? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that didn't get you anywhere? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And I understand that there was 12 substantial discussions through 1993 and through 1994 13 involving the Chief and Council, as elected, who have I 14 identified and the Chief and Council from the Chippewa 15 Kettle and Stoney Point attempting to come to a 16 collective position on how to deal with the Federal 17 Government; is that your understanding? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I take it that in the camp -- 20 sorry, at that time when you were occupying this two 21 hundred (200) metre by two hundred (200) metre area there 22 was a decision making process which involved all of the 23 Stoney Pointers? 24 A: Yes, there was. 25 Q: "Yes". So, that when anything of
2011 importance was happening, not only would the Chief take a 2 position but your voice would also be heard? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: As well as the voices of anybody else 5 who was a part of the organized group? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you operated on the concept of 8 consensus rather than majority rule? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And I understand that this 11 continued -- this situation continued up until late -- 12 until around middle May of 1995 when there was some 13 concern that -- that Chief Karl George had been involved 14 in discussions with the Chief from the Kettle and Stoney 15 Point which did not involve the rest of his Council? 16 Don't nod. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yes? And I understand, bless his 19 soul, that Mrs. Melba George, your grandmother -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- sometime around May, late May of 22 1995 had organized with the other clan mothers to 23 question the leadership of Karl George; do you recall 24 that? 25 A: Yes.
2021 Q: And though the leadership was 2 questioned, it continued up until after the time when 3 Dudley George was killed -- his leadership? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, you've indicated that, and I 6 will tell you, I have not gone yet to the occupation of 7 the base, you're still occupying your two hundred (200) 8 by two hundred (200) metre spot on -- on -- off Highway 9 21. 10 During this time were you having any 11 conflicts with members with military personnel who lived 12 on the base? 13 A: Any conflicts? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Nothing physical. But I think, I 16 forget what his name was, but he delivered eviction 17 notices. 18 Q: Somebody came up and delivered 19 eviction notices to whom? Was it a Stoney Pointer 20 delivering eviction notices or was it a member of the 21 camp? 22 A: I think it was a member of the camp. 23 Q: Delivering eviction notices to whom? 24 A: To the protesters. 25 Q: To the protesters. The residents?
2031 A: Residents, yeah. 2 Q: That's -- that's in spite of the fact 3 that the military had given you permission to occupy -- 4 had agreed that you can peacefully occupy a two hundred 5 (200) metre by two hundred (200) metre plot? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do you know whether or not they 8 was --- that was ever revoked? Did the military ever 9 come and say look, we change our mind, you can no longer 10 occupy these lands? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: If you can't remember, that's an 15 answer. 16 A: I don't remember. Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. Fine. So, this situation 18 continued now up until the end -- or the latter part of 19 July 1995. Now, after the occupation -- after you moved 20 into the army barracks, the camp -- the base itself -- 21 A: Hmm hmm, yes. 22 Q: Were there any problems with the 23 police in -- in -- let's say, late July or early August 24 1995? 25 A: It seemed like they were always
2041 trying to get in. They were hanging around at the gate. 2 Every so often they wanted to come in and patrol. 3 Q: But apart from general police patrol, 4 there was no conflict between the residents and the 5 police? 6 A: No. 7 Q: So, any conflict would have developed 8 some -- some time after and -- and -- and -- in the month 9 of September? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, you spoke at some time about 12 some residents, some -- some -- some people living in the 13 general area that you had problems with, that there was 14 some physical altercations from time to time? 15 A: Yes, there was. 16 Q: Now, were these people who were 17 living in the Forest or in Bosanquet County area? 18 A: I'm not sure where they lived, but, 19 like, they could have, yeah. 20 Q: So, you had conflicts with these 21 people from time to time. Now, help me, when would these 22 conflicts have started? 23 And let me give you a couple of markers. 24 Did you have any of these conflicts when you were living 25 on the range of Highway 21?
2051 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: Yes, I think there was. 5 Q: Were there any situations where any 6 members, any people who were resident in that two hundred 7 (200) by a metre, by two hundred (200) metre block were 8 sort of jumped and beaten up by any -- any outsiders? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And was that when the people started 11 walking with clubs and sticks? 12 A: Some of them, yeah. 13 Q: So, the clubs and sticks started 14 substantially before the move from the two hundred (200) 15 by two hundred (200) metre in to the Army base? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Around the time when you claim that 18 military individuals were caught slashing tires, where 19 were you resident? Were you still on the two hundred 20 (200) by two hundred (200) metre area or had you occupied 21 the base by then? 22 A: I was up in a part around -- up 23 around the middle there by the beach. I was way up by 24 the 25 beach --
2061 Q: So -- 2 A: -- then. 3 Q: -- had the group moved into the base 4 yet or had the group still been resident on the two 5 hundred (200) metre by two hundred (200) metre plot? 6 A: They had moved in, all around, yeah. 7 Q: But they had taken over the base? 8 A: No, not the base -- not the built-up 9 area, no. 10 Q: I see. They had moved beyond the 11 limits of the two hundred (200) by two hundred (200) 12 metre -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- onto other parts of the property, 15 but had not taken over the base? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: So, all this, then, would have been 18 prior to the end of July 1995? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Now, all of this time there was some 21 questions about your guns. Now, would you agree with me 22 that as far as these -- the guns, these point -- these 23 .22 calibre rifles, semi-automatic with scopes, that they 24 were typical hunting rifles? 25 A: Yes, they were.
2071 Q: And if you went to Muncey and spoke 2 to an Indian there who hunted, many of them would have 3 .22 calibre semi automatic rifles with scopes that are 4 used for hunting? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the same would apply to Sarnia 7 reserve? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the same would apply to Walpole 10 Island reserve? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So there is really nothing strange to 13 find that people among your group would have had hunting 14 rifles with scopes? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 16 Downard...? 17 OBJ MR. PETER DOWNARD: Sir, Mr. Ross has his 18 place in the order of examinations because this is his 19 own Witness and we're hearing an awful lot of leading 20 questions and to the extent we get into sensitive areas, 21 I -- I would object to Counsel leading his own witness. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is an 23 anomaly. Mr. Vella, do you want to speak to it? Just 24 one second, Mr. Ross. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I'm
2081 not aware of there being any practice in the rules that 2 requires Counsel to lead or not lead. It might well go 3 to -- to weight with respect to the answers. But this is 4 the Commission Counsel's witness and as I say, I'm not 5 aware that there's anything in the rules that prohibits 6 this form of cross-examination. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But I think, 8 Mr. Ross, you'll agree the extent to which you lead 9 probably affects the weight of what you're -- what you're 10 getting from the Witness. It will be better if you 11 didn't have to lead the witness and you asked ordinary 12 questions. 13 That would be -- I'm not going to stop 14 you, but it would be better if you didn't ask your -- ask 15 your own Witness leading questions. 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you kindly, Mr. 17 Commissioner, and I -- I will -- I will have a new 18 approach. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There are 20 some times when it helps us because it moves it along and 21 I know it's not an issue. And that's what you've been 22 doing. But when you reach a sensitive spot, it would be 23 preferable to have you ask non-leading questions. 24 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Precisely and that's 25 why I have -- I have sort of segmented it, Mr.
2091 Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 7 Q: Now, Mr. Simon, there's evidence that 8 you own a Quee (phonetic) rifle? 9 A: I think I owned a Lakefield 64 rifle. 10 Q: Lakefield? So, I wonder why we got a 11 Quee here. And were you the only person on the Stoney 12 Point lands who owned that type of rifle? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And have you visited other reserves 15 for purposes of hunting? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And could you tell us what kinds of 18 rifles that they had at those reserves? 19 A: Pretty much the same things we had. 20 Q: You gave evidence, Mr. Simon, about 21 people on their way home started picking a fight with 22 some of the residents of -- some of the Stoney Point 23 residents. Do you recall that evidence? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now tell us, when did this happen and
2101 you can use the benchmarks that I've given you. I've 2 given you when you were living on the two hundred (200) 3 by two hundred (200) or when you had already occupied the 4 base? When were these fights happening? 5 A: When we lived on two-hundred (200) by 6 two hundred (200) and let's see, yeah when we lived on 7 the two hundred (200) by two hundred (200) and when we 8 moved around and then let's see, I haven't been in any -- 9 in any since we moved, took over the base or the Park but 10 there has been some people that are still running into 11 the same problem on the -- in the Park. 12 Q: So it has been a consistent problem 13 since you moved onto the land -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- back in 1993? 16 A: Yes, yes. 17 Q: Now, I'd -- with reluctance I'm going 18 to go into this area and Ms. Jones in questioning you put 19 it to you that if you are pushed into a corner, it was 20 with respect to guns, if I were -- you were pushed into a 21 corner and your response was, I suppose I would get some 22 guns and fight back. Do you recall that series of 23 questions and answers? 24 MR. MARLIN DOUGLAS SIMON: Yes. 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Yeah. Now have you
2111 ever been pushed into a corner to the extent that you had 2 to go to get guns and fight back? 3 MR. MARLIN DOUGLAS SIMON: I would have 4 that night. It was going to happen but I never -- 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Yes. But I'm saying 6 to you, have you ever gone to get guns to come back to 7 finish a fight? 8 MR. MARLIN DOUGLAS SIMON: No. No. 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Okay, fine. Now there 10 was some suggestion about a fire that was lit down near 11 the Provincial Park lands. Now, there is a map that is 12 shown, the ident -- can you -- do you understand that 13 map? 14 A: Yes, I do. 15 Q: Now, with your laser, could you 16 perhaps point to the areas where fires were lit? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Now, you didn't have to point that 21 hard. He zapped it. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Quickly before it disappears.
2121 A: All right. We had a fire right here 2 on Matheson Drive, and there was another one (1) up here 3 by the store. Yeah, that's like -- this is before 4 September the 6th, we had all these fires, there was one 5 (1) there and one (1) over here. 6 That's all I remember there, I think. 7 There might have been another one (1) at the entrance of 8 the Park, I'm not sure. 9 Q: Now, would you also identify for me, 10 the sandy Parking lot? 11 A: The sandy Parking lot is right in 12 here. 13 Q: So, is it fair to say then -- you've 14 seen that we had written Army Camp Road on that map, on 15 that drawing? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, is it fair to say, as you face 18 the drawing, all fires were on the right of that line? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Within what was the Stoney Point IR- 21 43? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So then whether it was a campfire or 24 it was a bonfire, it was on lands which you understood 25 was part of the old Reserve?
2131 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, I must ask you a bit about the 3 relationship with the police. My understanding is that - 4 - or is -- sorry, I'll rephrase. 5 During the month of August 1995, when your 6 group had occupied the base, did you have any 7 confrontation, any conflicts with the police during that 8 month, August? 9 A: Let's see. Not me personally. 10 Q: Did you know of any conflicts, any 11 big conflicts between the police and your membership in 12 August? 13 A: Not that I recall. 14 Q: Okay. So, all the conflicts that 15 happened, resulting in the death of Dudley George, were 16 early September problems? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. Now, before I get into 19 that area, tell me about the organization within -- from 20 the point of view of the occupiers? 21 A: Just a minute here. Just a minute, 22 to go back, I remember Dudley getting stuck once down at 23 the beach. And then I don't know, the police were going 24 to go and arrest him or something. 25 And he was yelling and -- yelling at them
2141 anyways, trying to chase them away, and then we kind of 2 pulled up there and then the police pulled back and then 3 Dudley, I don't know, he didn't see us pull up and he 4 thought -- thought that he had chased them away all by 5 himself or something, and then he turned around and seen 6 us. 7 Q: When you say stuck, was he driving, 8 or -- 9 A: Yeah, he was driving a -- 10 Q: So he's driving a vehicle down in the 11 sand and got stuck? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: I see. Okay. Now, there are two (2) 14 things I'd like you to assist me on. Perhaps you can 15 explain to the Commissioner what it is to be a warrior? 16 A: A warrior? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: I don't know, somebody that's there 19 to take care of the community and look after the young 20 ones and help out the older ones and just be there for 21 his people. 22 Q: In the broadest sense, could it be 23 said it's as a kind of a community helper? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, we understand our television
2151 view of a warrior is that okay, fine, it's somebody who 2 is running around with some kind of weapons ready to do 3 harm. Is this your understanding of being a warrior? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And as far as your warrior society is 6 concerned, could you perhaps help us to get a better 7 understanding of your warrior society? 8 A: I don't know, just to act and respond 9 and help -- help with the community, the people in the 10 community and their jobs and whatever they want done. 11 Q: Tell me, would any elders still be 12 warriors? 13 A: Would elders -- ones? Sure. 14 Q: So, there would be some people who are 15 elders and are still warriors? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And as far as the youth are concerned, 18 for instance, you wouldn't find somebody being a ten (10) 19 year old warrior, would you? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Around what age would you be sort 22 admitted into this warrior society? 23 A: Whenever you hit puberty and you go 24 through your -- your rites, your passages, and you're 25 becoming a man. There are certain ceremonies and things
2161 you got to do. These are all parts of stuff you got to 2 do when you're becoming a warrior. 3 Q: Is a part of your cultural upbringing 4 rather -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- than a capacity to fight and kill. 7 A: Yes. Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And there's something I want to 9 straighten out with you here. I'm not to sure of when 10 you was -- when Ms. Jones was speaking to you, she spoke 11 about the -- the fuel, the gasoline -- and the impression 12 I got was that there were a number of twenty (20) gallon 13 -- twenty (20) gallon containers that you were being 14 moved around. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, before you answer that, let me 17 tell you. I know that a gallon of water weighs ten (10) 18 pounds and I know that gasoline is almost as heavy as 19 water, so you got over two hundred (200) pounds of fuel? 20 A: I was thinking I was getting litres 21 and gallons mixed up. These were twenty (20) litre cans. 22 Q: Okay. Fine, well that's different. 23 The other thing is that you were speaking about the 24 helicopter and how high it was hovering. At one (1) 25 stage you indicated that it is around fifteen (15) feet.
2171 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then Ms. Jones asked you whether 3 or not it was about high as the ceiling and you said, 4 yes. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Now I will suggest to you that if you 7 count, you've got twenty-one (21) rows of brick, they're 8 around eight (8) inches, so it comes to about fourteen 9 (14) feet, so you weren't too bad. Okay? Just for 10 confirmation. 11 After the confrontation on the 6th of 12 September, 1995 do you recall how many bullet casings 13 were found down in the confrontation area? 14 A: Not exactly. Not exactly, no. 15 Q: How many you know for sure? 16 A: Like I said, I seen handfuls of them. 17 Q: Handfuls. Would there have been in 18 your view more than twenty (20)? 19 A: Oh yeah. Yes. 20 Q: More than fifty (50)? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And as far as these are concerned, 23 were these found in the camp area where your people were 24 or were they found outside of that area? 25 A: They were found outside of the area.
2181 Q: And who was occupying that area where 2 these -- these bullet casings were found? 3 A: Nobody, it's pretty much roadway -- 4 road allowance. 5 Q: Yeah, but there had to be people 6 there. They weren't your people, who were they? 7 A: Cottagers. 8 Q: Cottagers? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Firing bullets? 11 A: No. 12 Q: I'm speaking about the bullet casings. 13 A: Oh, the bullet casings? Yeah, the 14 police. 15 Q: Another thing, as far as the fires 16 were concerned, the fires that had been lit, were these 17 fires -- how -- how far were these fires from -- from 18 peoples' property -- from cottages and so on? 19 A: From cottages? Quite a ways away. 20 Q: What was, in your view, the chance of 21 these fires spreading to the cottages? 22 A: Zero. 23 Q: Now, for specific reasons I am going 24 to jump past the -- the incidents of the 6th and 7th -- 25 the 5th, 6th and 7th of September and go on to about the
2191 8th and 9th. After this incident which resulted in the 2 death of Dudley George, I understand that Bruce Elijah 3 and Bob Antone (phonetic) were brought in as negotiators? 4 A: Yes, they were. 5 Q: Who brought them in as negotiators? 6 A: I don't know. We did, I guess. 7 Q: And -- and they were to be negotiating 8 with whom? 9 A: The police. 10 Q: And what was the police response to 11 negotiators being brought in? 12 A: I'm not sure. I guess they started 13 negotiating with them. 14 Q: Now, tell me something, Mr. Simon. 15 This whole move to occupy the Camp, sorry, to occupy a 16 section of IR-43, and later the Army Base, and later the 17 Park, was it done for any -- for yourself personally, or 18 was it intended to provide the land to you personally? 19 A: No, not for me personally, for the 20 generations that are coming up, so that they have a place 21 to grow, our kids, our families. 22 Q: And as far as this is concerned, you 23 know, why did you think it became necessary to go and 24 occupy these lands? 25 A: Why was it necessary? Just that,
2201 well, Uncle Hamster was still alive and he was -- he was 2 the last -- last person that actually owned land in the 3 Military Base and he was the last person alive that 4 actually land and lived there before they took it over. 5 I mean, we felt we want to get him back home, before he 6 dies, and just while we still -- while we still could do 7 that. 8 Q: Would it be fair to say that it was 9 your guys' efforts to influence public opinion and 10 influence Government? 11 A: Pardon? 12 Q: Were you trying to get Government to 13 change its position? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: So, assuming that was your overall 16 strategy, the overall strategy of the occupation and so 17 on was to put pressure on Government to change its 18 position? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you started that in 1993? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you had a march to Ottawa? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you went further and you occupied 25 the Base?
2211 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you went further and you occupied 3 the Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And in all that you were doing, it 6 was within the limits of what was IR-43? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, understanding the overall 9 strategy, I must now ask you a little bit of about the 10 tactics which were employed. You understand the 11 difference -- do you understand what I say about the 12 strategy, am I correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Now, we understand what the 15 big plan is; you want to make Government change its mind. 16 And now we're going to go to the nuts and bolts and get 17 to the how you went about it. 18 Now, recognizing that as at the end of 19 August 1995, your Group did not yet have any major 20 conflict with the police; could you perhaps stop and 21 think for a minute, and tell me what triggered the 22 situation which resulted in conflict with the police? 23 A: What triggered this? I guess it was 24 when we took over the Park. 25 Q: The occupation of the Park?
2221 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes. And very quickly, you occupied 3 the Park on the 4th of September -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- yes, late the 4th of September -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- and by the 5th, there is 8 confrontation with the police, police vehicles hitting 9 tables, helicopters coming down very low over tables 10 where people are trying to eat, et cetera? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And with the police, as I listen to 13 your evidence, it appears that both your side and the 14 police were almost angling for a fight. Is that a fair 15 way to put it? 16 A: We knew that the police seemed like 17 they were angling for a fight, so we weren't really... 18 Q: And your guys weren't prepared to 19 back away from that fight either? 20 A: Yeah, we weren't going to let them -- 21 yeah. Exactly. 22 Q: And this fight that both sides were 23 apparently -- and I say, apparently, angling for, did you 24 ever believe that it would result in the shooting death 25 of one of your people?
2231 A: No. 2 Q: Did you believe that it would have 3 resulted in the amount of bullets that were fired that 4 night being, in fact, fired? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Now, when you spoke to Ms. Jones -- 7 when you responded to questions from Ms. Jones and 8 questions from Mr. Downard, you presented the position as 9 a peaceful occupation of the lands? Speak up. 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: Yes? And when did it turn from being 12 peaceful, pick me a date and tell me? For instance, I'll 13 ask you, was it prior to occupation of the Park or after 14 occupation of the Park that you went from peaceful to 15 non-peaceful? 16 A: From peaceful, it would be after the 17 -- after the Park. 18 Q: After the Park? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: So the Park is occupied on the 4th 21 September by midnight of the 6th September Dudley George 22 is shot. 23 A: Yes. 24 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you very much. 25 Those are my questions.
2241 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Any re- 2 examination, Ms. Vella? 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: You'll all be pleased 4 to know that I don't have very many questions on re- 5 examination. 6 7 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: But, Mr. Simon, I'm -- going to ask 9 you some questions which I believe require clarification 10 arising from some of the evidence that you gave in cross- 11 examination; all right? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Now, on September the 5th, the day 14 before Dudley George was shot, you told Ms. Jones that 15 you had a bonfire at the Parking -- the sandy Parking lot 16 area and that she asked you whether you could have 17 instead of building that fire, built up the fence along 18 the Park on the east side of the Park; do you recall 19 that? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: Just for our information, how far did 22 that fence extend northwards towards the lake; did it go 23 all the way to the lake at that time in September of '95? 24 25 A: Let's see. There's a fence went all
2251 the way to the -- along the Parking lot and then it, kind 2 of, drops down towards the beach and it just went as far 3 as the top of the hill there. 4 And then at the lower part of the hill 5 there's a -- like a guard rail and a bunch of steel posts 6 that go out towards the beach way. 7 Q: All right. And so was there a solid 8 barrier on the beachfront separating Ipperwash Provincial 9 Park from the public road access? 10 A: Yes, there was. 11 Q: Okay. You were asked with respect to 12 overhearing conversations on the radio scanner that Cecil 13 Bernard George brought into the Park in or around the 14 evening of September 6th; do you recall that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Can you tell me how many times did 17 you sit down and overhear conversations on the radio 18 scanner that evening? 19 A: I'm not sure. It was just like 20 everybody seemed to be standing around watching the -- or 21 listening to the scanner. It was just like, pretty much, 22 one (1) -- one (1) -- one (1) big long listening to it, I 23 guess. 24 Q: Okay. so it was a continuous -- 25 A: Yeah.
2261 Q: -- overhearing? Okay. Let me ask 2 you this more specifically, how many times did you 3 overhear a conversation on the radio scanner which 4 explicitly referenced the T.R.U. team? 5 A: How many times? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Just that once. 8 Q: All right. Can you tell me what it 9 was that you did, to the best of your recollection, then 10 between approximately 8:00 p.m. on Wednesday, September 11 the 6th and approximately 10:30 p.m. that evening? 12 You've told us about driving up to the 13 barracks? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: Can you tell us what your actions 16 were for the two and a half (2 1/2) hour period, 17 approximately? 18 A: That two and a half (2 1/2) hour 19 period? Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: I don't know. Just right when it was 21 starting to get dark we were all down at the Park for a - 22 - just standing around. Then, let's see, whenever it -- 23 I don't know. We were just down in the Park. 24 Q: All right. And you can't -- 25 A: And, yeah, we're doing little patrols
2271 and stuff like that around the Park. And, I don't know, 2 it's hard to say. 3 Q: All right. What I'm trying to -- to 4 understand, Mr. Simon, is, you talk about hearing a radio 5 scanner conversation that was likely somewhere around 6 8:00 p.m. that evening and then going up to the barracks. 7 And then coming back from the barracks you told us what 8 you saw in terms of the confrontation already ongoing? 9 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 10 Q: Did that take two and a half (2 1/2) 11 hours? 12 A: No. 13 Q: So what else did you do, if anything? 14 15 A: Jeez, I don't know. 16 Q: Okay. You can't recall? 17 A: No, can't recall. 18 Q: All right. You were asking questions 19 about the warrior society that you belong to, can you 20 tell me, was there any military component to the one you 21 belonged to between 1993 and 1995? 22 A: Any military component? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Not really. Other than we occupied a 25 military base.
2281 Q: All right. Can you tell me when it 2 is that you became a member of this warrior society? 3 A: I don't know. It would right around 4 the time it was formed. 5 Q: And when was that approximately? 6 A: That was in the summer of '93. 7 Q: And can you tell me what gave rise to 8 the formation of this warrior society? 9 A: I don't know. It just seemed like 10 all the young people didn't really know what to do. And 11 just to give the young people something to do and, kind 12 of, keep them occupied, I guess. 13 Q: Can you tell me, whose idea, if you - 14 - if you know, it was to form a warrior society at this 15 time? 16 A: My mother's, grandmother's, a lot of 17 the people -- a lot of the people that were around. 18 Everybody wanted -- wanted to do something. 19 Q: Did you receive any teachings from 20 any of these individuals about what the obligations of 21 members of the warrior society were to be? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: What did you learn? 24 A: I don't know. Quite a bit of stuff. 25 Q: Can you give me a sense of the areas
2291 -- the subjects that you learned? 2 A: I don't know, it was more -- there's 3 a declaration of -- I forget, like, independence for 4 Indian people and stuff like that, like native people. 5 And we, kind of, followed those 6 guidelines. Try and live a good clean life and help the 7 people out. 8 Q: So is -- is it the function of the 9 warrior society that you belong to to assist your people 10 with having an independent life -- livelihood, if you 11 will, or like a community? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You said that there were rites of 14 passage that individuals had to go through in order -- I 15 think you said, in order to become a man? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: But -- and then in order to become a 18 member of the warrior society. Did you go through any of 19 these passage of rites? 20 A: Just fasting and stuff like that. 21 Stuff you're supposed to do when you become a man 22 anyways. You're supposed to do this stuff every year. 23 Q: Can you be as specific as possible 24 because saying, Stuff like that, I don't know what that 25 means?
2301 A: You go -- you fast in the spring time 2 and have a sweats and fast and then, kind of like a 3 vision -- vision -- vision seeking, stuff like that. Get 4 your -- get in tune with yourself and what you've got to 5 do. 6 Q: And when did you go through the rites 7 of passage the first time? 8 A: I don't know. I was maybe about 9 sixteen (16) the first time I fasted. 10 Q: Can you explain to us how the warrior 11 society at the Stoney Point functioned, relative to the 12 Chief and Band Council structure at Stoney Point? trying 13 to understand how the two (2) interfaced. 14 A: How the two (2) interfaced? I don't 15 know. Just -- the Council and the people, they would 16 just have discussions and figure out the route to go 17 pursue their -- whatever they wanted to do next. 18 And we would always just, like, we attend 19 these meetings and then we would try to figure out how we 20 could help out from our point of view and where we were, 21 like stuck on -- we were not really stuck back there but 22 just living on the land at the same time. 23 Q: Did you have any decision-making role 24 which was distinct from the decision-making role of the 25 Chief and Council at Stoney Point?
2311 A: No. 2 Q: Did you have any decision-making 3 role? 4 A: No, not really. 5 Q: So if I'm understanding you, the 6 Chief and Council would make decisions and the obligation 7 of the warrior society was to see how it could fulfill 8 those or assist -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 10 Q: -- in the fulfilment? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Is that fair? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You indicated that you saw Gerald 15 George on September the 6th, driving along Army Camp 16 Road, and you saw him stop at the police checkpoint when 17 you were at Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road; is that 18 right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you said that you, when you saw 21 him, he was driving northward and that would be towards 22 the lake; is that what you meant? 23 A: No. I meant he was driving 24 southward. 25 Q: So he was driving away from the
2321 lake -- 2 A: Driving away from -- yes. 3 Q: -- towards Highway 21? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Thank you. You indicated that you 6 saw Cecil Bernard George enter the -- or, at least, enter 7 towards the Park in his truck, and that when he left it, 8 some brothers also came out of that truck with him, that 9 you could identify? 10 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 11 Q: And you said that one (1) of the 12 brothers was Berger. Now, is that Stacey George? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You also identified another brother 15 as Finn (phonetic). Can you tell me who that is? 16 A: Hmm hmm. Jeremiah. 17 Q: Jeremiah George? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And Delbert (phonetic)? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Delbert George? 22 A: Delbert George is -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- another one (1) of the brothers. 25 Q: Do you recall any other people
2331 specifically who came out of the truck, who you could 2 identify? 3 A: No. 4 Q: You talked a little bit about the two 5 hundred (200) square metre area which was the subject of 6 negotiations between the military and that your Chief and 7 Council, with respect to the occupation of the Camp 8 Ipperwash lands. Can you tell me, if you know, whether 9 this arrangement was negotiated before or after you 10 entered the lands in May of '93? 11 A: I think it might have been after. 12 Q: Now, were you directly involved with 13 these negotiations? 14 A: No, I wasn't. 15 Q: Can you tell me what the source of 16 your belief is then? Were you reported to, for example, 17 or how is it that you -- you know this? 18 A: It was, I don't know, just, like, 19 whenever everybody showed up to see what was going on. 20 You just found out everything else. 21 Q: All right. In any event, when you 22 went onto the lands for the first time in May of '93, to 23 your knowledge there was no such permission granted by 24 the military to enter the lands? 25 A: There was some of -- I don't know
2341 what it was, that it was like -- I think there was a 2 protest right outside, just like, before that. I spent 3 the night outside of the -- the thing the night before. 4 And then everybody moved in the next day. 5 Q: All right. Just -- just to be 6 clear -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- to your knowledge, did you have 9 the permission of the military when you first entered the 10 Camp Ipperwash land? 11 A: Me? No. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Not me. 14 Q: Okay. You told Mr. Ross that Bruce 15 Elija and Bob Antoine (phonetic) came in as negotiators 16 on behalf of the occupants; is that right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Do you -- did you know either of 19 these individuals, either personally or by reputation 20 prior to September the 4th of 1995? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And do you know then, on 23 what basis, they were chosen by your group to be 24 negotiators? 25 A: We had contacted them like earlier
2351 and tried to get their view on what was going on and what 2 we were doing and everything and then I think we 3 established a kind of a -- whatchamacallit, dialogues is 4 going in between the Oneida Longhouse and us. 5 And -- I don't know. Just later on they - 6 - they had like a reputation of they were involved in the 7 Oka crisis and -- and Gunawagee (phonetic) -- Gunawagee 8 and Gunasatogee (phonetic) things that were happened in 9 1990. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And they were very -- like successful 12 in diffusing that so we figured we'd... 13 Q: All right. Now, when -- to your 14 knowledge when did -- did dialogue between the Oneida 15 Longhouse and your community begin? 16 A: It be that -- earlier that year. 17 Q: Which year? 18 A: '95. 19 Q: '95? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Prior to going into the barracks? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And can you just explain 24 to us what a Longhouse is, please? 25 A: It's like the traditional form of
2361 government for the Oneida people. 2 Q: And why go to the Oneida Longhouse or 3 -- for this dialogue? 4 A: I don't know. We were kind of 5 wandering around, looking for support. 6 Q: All right. And in what way did you 7 think that, or did you hope at least, that they could 8 assist you? 9 A: I don't know. Just kind of -- just 10 give us some insight onto what kind of other things that 11 they had been -- kind of how we could apply something to 12 -- down at home. 13 Q: Did you receive Counsel from the 14 Longhouse with respect to the propriety or possibility of 15 occupying the Park? 16 A: Counsel? 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: Not really. They said that we would 19 have to do everything like -- like, if it's going to be 20 for us we're going to do it for us. You know, we'd have 21 to do it ourselves and then they would help --help out. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: If we needed some help somewheres 24 along the line. 25 Q: I take it from your comment, then,
2371 that Bruce Elijah and Bob Antoine (phonetic) were two (2) 2 individuals whom your community was comfortable with 3 acting as negotiating -- negotiators on your behalf? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you knew about these people in 6 advance of September the 4th? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Why did you -- do you know why they 9 weren't asked to intervene prior to the evening of 10 September the 6th as negotiators with the OPP? 11 A: I don't know. Don't have... 12 Q: If I may ask you, and with the 13 benefit of hindsight, do you think that that would have 14 been a prudent measure to have taken? That is, to have 15 asked them to come and intervene prior to September the 16 6th as negotiators? 17 A: Yes it would have. 18 Q: Thank you very much for your -- 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: -- testimony today. Mr. 21 Commissioner, that completes my re-examination. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much. Yes, Mr. Millar...? 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, it's 25 five (5) to 5:00, so I propose that we adjourn till
2381 tomorrow morning at ten o'clock and the witness will be 2 Mr. David Abraham George. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. Thank you very much. You've been on the 5 stand for a long time. Thank you very much. 6 THE WITNESS: All right, thanks. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 8 okay? 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've held 11 up pretty well. Thank you very much. 12 THE WITNESS: All right. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It wasn't an 14 easy time for you. Thank you. 15 16 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I guess 19 that's it. We're adjourned until ten o'clock tomorrow 20 morning. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This public inquiry is 22 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, October 19th at 10:00 23 a.m. 24 25 --- Upon adjourning at 5:00 p.m.
2391 2 3 Certified Correct 4 5 6 7 8 _____________________ 9 Dustin Warnock 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25