11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 October 17th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 16 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 15 Trevor Hinnegan ) 16 17 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 18 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 19 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) (np) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 15 16 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 LESLIE RUTH KOHSED-CURRIE, Affirmed 6 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 8 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 30 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Walter Myrka 42 9 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 49 10 11 SCOTT DOUGLAS PATRICK, Sworn 12 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 53 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 123 14 Cross-Examination by Ms. Erin Tully 141 15 Cross-Examination by Ms. Anna Perschy 145 16 Cross-Examination by Mr. Walter Myrka 177 17 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Falconer 185 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Certificate of Transcript 236 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-761 Ms. Leslie Kohsed-Currie's 4 Curriculum Vitae. 9 5 P-762 GHQ Duty NCO log for July 30/'95, 6 07:00 A.M. to 07:00 A.M. December. 7 Document Number 2000941. 61 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon convening at 10:30 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 7 It's nice to see everybody again. Just before we begin 8 the session this morning, we couldn't start, we couldn't 9 begin this session without acknowledging the absence of 10 Clifford George. It was with sadness that the Commission 11 learned that Clifford passed away on September the 30th. 12 Over the last year the Commission and 13 indeed all parties to this Inquiry, came to know and 14 appreciate Clifford George. I believe I could speak on 15 behalf of everyone when I express my appreciation for his 16 contribution to both the substance and the process of 17 this Inquiry. 18 Clifford contributed to the Inquiry in a 19 very public way through the recounting of his life 20 experience in Canada and overseas. Perhaps, as 21 significantly was a more quiet contribution by way of the 22 fortitude and grace that obviously guided him through his 23 life and through these experiences. 24 I know that Clifford's passing leaves a 25 large hole in the lives of his family and his community.
81 And I would like to once again express my condolences, my 2 personal condolences, and the condolences of everyone 3 working for the Commission to his family and to the 4 community. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 6 Commissioner. The first witness today is Ms. Leslie 7 Kohsed-Currie. 8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Ms. 9 Kohsed-Currie. 10 MS. LESLIE KOHSED-CURRIE: Good morning. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prefer to swear on 12 the bible, affirm or use an alternate oath. 13 MS. LESLIE KOHSED-CURRIE: Affirm. 14 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. Would you 15 please state your name in full for the record. 16 MS. LESLIE KOHSED-CURRIE: Leslie Ruth 17 Kohsed-Currie. 18 19 LESLIE RUTH KOHSED-CURRIE, Affirmed 20 21 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Good morning, Ms. Kohsed-Currie, 23 A: Good morning. 24 Q: In the blue folder in front of you 25 there is a copy of your CV, what I'm told is your
91 curriculum vitae, and is that correct? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Perhaps we could mark that as the 4 next exhibit? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-761, Your Honour. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-761: Ms. Leslie Kohsed-Currie's 9 Curriculum Vitae. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And I understand that you've worked 13 with the Ontario Government since 1986 in the Ontario -- 14 Ontario Native Affairs Secretariat; is that correct? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And you began as Executive Assistant 17 to the Executive Director and held that position from 18 1986 to 1990? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And from nineteen (19) -- March 1990 21 to July 1994 you were a negotiator in the Negotiations 22 Branch of the Ontario Native Affairs Secretariat? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And from 1994 -- August 1994 to May 25 1997 you were Liaison Coordinator Aboriginal/Federal
101 Relations Branch and Negotiations Support Branch of the 2 Ontario Native Affairs Secretariat? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And from May 1997 to October 1999 you 5 were the -- a policy advisor, Aboriginal Healing and 6 Wellness Strategy Ministry of Community and Social 7 Services? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And from October 1999 to present you 10 have been a negotiator in the Negotiations Branch of the 11 Ontario Native Affairs Secretariat? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And if I might, prior to the event of 14 the -- of September 1995 had you attended any meetings of 15 the Interministerial Committee with respect to Aboriginal 16 issues? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I understand you attended 19 meetings in May of 1993? 20 A: I believe that's when. 21 Q: And there were two (2) meetings you 22 attended in May of 1993? 23 A: I think so. I'm sorry, I don't have 24 the records in front of me. 25 Q: And you weren't a -- a member of the
111 Committee? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And as I understand it you left those 4 meetings prior to any nego -- discussion taking place 5 concerning the Ipperwash matter? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you've never dealt with the 8 situation at Ipperwash in your professional capacity at 9 ONAS? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And if I could take you down to 12 September 1995. I take it that at some point on 13 September 4th/September 5th you learned of the occupation 14 of the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And how did you learn about the 17 occupation of the Park? 18 A: I don't remember exactly, but I'd 19 assume it was from the media; listening to the radio in 20 the morning before going to work. 21 Q: And on September 5th and September 22 6th, 1995 you were working at your office at ONAS in 23 Toronto? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And as I understand it in September
121 1995 the offices -- Ontario Native Affair Secretariat's 2 office was on -- at the building known as the Atrium on 3 Bay -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- at 595 Bay Street? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And on September the 6th we've heard 8 there was an Interministerial Committee Meeting held at 9 the Ontario Native Affairs Secretariat on the morning of 10 September the 6th and we understand the meeting was held 11 in the ONAS green boardroom. 12 Are you familiar with the ONAS green 13 boardroom, as it was then called back ten (10) years ago? 14 A: Yes, but I'm not sure which one it 15 was. We had three (3) and they each had a different 16 colour for a name. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: I assume it might be the largest one. 19 Q: And were they -- the three (3) 20 boardrooms in a -- an area adjacent to each other? 21 A: No, they were split up a little bit. 22 Q: Okay. What I'm really getting it is, 23 how far was your office from these boardrooms, and assume 24 for the moment the largest boardroom? 25
131 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: The -- the office is shaped like -- 4 was shaped like a U or horseshoe. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And the other end of the two (2) 7 horseshoes, or whatever, there's two (2) little walkways. 8 I was in one of these walkways on the north side, and -- 9 sorry, the horseshoe -- the back of the horseshoe would 10 be facing east and then -- we were on the north/south and 11 facing west. 12 And I was up -- my office is at the far 13 northwest, sort of, of the horseshoe and the boardrooms 14 were at the bottom of the horseshow and around the corner 15 of it. 16 Q: So, that the bottom -- the -- the 17 horseshoe went around, as I understand it, there was an - 18 - there's an atrium in this building? 19 A: Yeah, it was empty -- well -- 20 Q: There's an empty -- empty space -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- that comes up from the main floor? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And so that the ONAS office ran 25 around the atrium on the north and the south side and on
141 the east side? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And your office was on the end of -- 4 at the northwest corner and the boardrooms were at the 5 southeast corner and east side of the U? 6 A: Yeah, my office was the second to 7 last at the end of that. 8 Q: Okay. And where was your office in 9 relation to the Legal Services Branch? 10 A: They were back around at the bottom 11 of this U. 12 Q: So, they were over on the southeast 13 corner of the U? 14 A: I think they were more along the east 15 -- the east wall. 16 Q: The east wall? Okay. 17 A: If the U is -- the bottom of the U is 18 facing east. 19 Q: Okay. They were on the east wall. 20 Now, the -- at some point on the morning of September the 21 6th, you learned something that -- with respect to the 22 Interministerial Committee; is that correct, Ms. Kohsed- 23 Currie? 24 A: I don't know if I learned what I 25 learned in the morning, or the afternoon.
151 Q: Okay. And what do you recall 2 learning? 3 A: I learned that in the 4 Interministerial Committee or the Emergency Blockade 5 Committee, that there had been a statement made by 6 Deborah Hutton, the senior advisor to the Premier, that 7 the Premier want -- was quite hawkish about the events at 8 Ipperwash Provincial Park and had stated that he wanted 9 the f-ing Indians out of the Park and if necessary, use 10 guns. 11 Q: And who did you hear this from? 12 A: I don't recall who I heard it from. 13 Q: And where were you when you heard 14 this? 15 A: I don't recall that either. 16 Q: Was it at the ONAS -- ONAS offices? 17 A: I believe it was. 18 Q: And was it -- did you hear this from 19 Julie Jai? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And when you say "no", is it no or 22 you don't recall? 23 A: I did not hear that from Julie Jai. 24 Q: Okay. And in front of you, Ms. 25 Kohsed-Currie, is a copy of Exhibit P-509, and at page 7
161 there's the meeting notes for September the 6th, 1995. 2 And did you speak to Julie Jai on 3 September the 6th? 4 A: I have no recollection of speaking 5 with Julie. 6 Q: Did you overhear Julie Jai speaking 7 to someone on September the 6th? 8 A: Not to my memory. 9 Q: Did you speak to Eileen Hipfner? Do 10 you know who Eileen Hipfner is? 11 A: Yes, I know who Eileen is. 12 Q: And did you speak to Eileen Hipfner 13 on September the 6th? 14 A: It's possible but -- 15 Q: Did Eileen Hipfner tell you the words 16 that you've related to us? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Nathalie Nepton. Did you know 19 Nathalie Nepton in -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did Nathalie Nepton say the words 22 that you've related to us -- tell you that statement? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Anna Prodanou? 25 A: No.
171 Q: She didn't? 2 A: No, she didn't. 3 Q: Now David Moran is a -- was a 4 political aid to Mr. Harnick; did you speak to Mr. David 5 Moran on September the 6th? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And Elizabeth Christie, she was a 8 lawyer with the Ministry Attorney General, the Civil -- 9 Crown Law Office Civil; did you know Ms. Christie on 10 September the 6th? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you speak to Ms. Christie on 13 September the 6th? 14 A: Not that I recall. 15 Q: Did Ms. Christie tell you the 16 statement that is attributed to Deb Hutton? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Andrew McDonald. Did you know Andrew 19 McDonald on September the 6th? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Did you speak to Andrew McDonald on 22 September the 6th? 23 A: Not that I recall. 24 Q: Did Andrew McDonald relate to you the 25 statement that you attribute to Ms. Hutton?
181 A: No. 2 Q: Did -- did you note Mr. Tim McCabe on 3 September the 6th, 1995? Did you -- 4 A: Yes. Yes. 5 Q: Did you speak to Tim McCabe on 6 September the 6th, 1995? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: Or not that I recall, sorry. 10 Q: Did Tim McCabe tell you the statement 11 that you attribute to Ms. Hutton? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Mr. Scott Hutchison. Did you know 14 Scott Hutchison who is a -- again, a lawyer with Crown 15 Law Office that in this, Criminal, on September the 6th, 16 1995? 17 A: No, I don't recall knowing him then. 18 Q: You don't recall knowing him? 19 A: Right, not at that time. 20 Q: Ms. Caroline Pinto (phonetic) was a - 21 - an assistant to Mr. Harnick. Did you know Ms. Pinto on 22 September the 6th? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you speak to Ms. Pinto on 25 September the 6th?
191 A: Not that I recall. 2 Q: And did either Mr. Hutchison or Ms. 3 Pinto relate to you the statement you attribute to Ms. 4 Hutton? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Deb Hutton. Did you talk to Deb 7 Hutton on September the 6th? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Ms. Shelley Spiegel. Did you know 10 who Ms. Shelley Spiegel was on September the 6th? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Did you speak to Shelley Spiegel on 13 September the 6th? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did Shelley Spiegel -- if you didn't 16 -- do you recall -- you didn't speak to her? 17 A: I don't think I did. 18 Q: Okay. And did she -- I take it then 19 she -- she did not pass on the statement to you? 20 A: No. 21 Q: What about Chris Buhagiar -- I think 22 is a parliamentary assistant, did you know him on 23 September the 6th? 24 A: I don't think so. 25 Q: And I take it you didn't speak to him
201 on September the 6th? Did he pass on the statement? 2 A: I -- I don't know who he is. 3 Q: You don't know who he is? Dan Newman 4 (phonetic)? 5 A: I know who he is. 6 Q: Did you speak to him on September the 7 6th? 8 A: I don't know. 9 Q: Did he pass on the statement to you? 10 A: I don't know. 11 Q: Did -- 12 A: I doubt it. I don't know, sorry. 13 Q: Okay. So, what -- 14 A: I don't recall -- oh sorry. I don't 15 recall talking direct with him. 16 Q: Okay. And Mr. Wallace Pidgeon, did - 17 - do you know who he was? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And did you speak to Mr. Pidgeon on 20 September the 6th? 21 A: Not that I recall. 22 Q: And did Mr. Pidgeon pass onto you the 23 statement attributed to Deb Hutton? 24 A: Not that I recall. 25 Q: And Ron Fox? Did you speak to Ron
211 Fox? Do you know who -- did you know Ron Fox on 2 September the 6th, 1995? 3 A: I'm not sure I did. 4 Q: Okay. And so if you didn't know, I 5 take it you didn't speak to him? 6 A: I assume not. Sorry. 7 Q: And what about Kathryn Hunt? Did -- 8 A: I don't know who she is. 9 Q: Okay. And Mr. Scott Patrick? 10 A: I don't know if I knew Scott at that 11 time. I know that later I did work with him on some 12 issues. 13 Q: But in September of 1995 you don't 14 think you knew him? 15 A: I'm not sure that I knew him or not. 16 Whether I knew him or not. 17 Q: Did -- did Scott Patrick pass on the 18 statement to you? 19 A: I don't have any recollection of 20 that. 21 Q: Okay. Cheryl Mounsey, did you know 22 her? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Peter Allen from the MNR? 25 A: Yes.
221 Q: Did you know Peter Allen? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And Peter Allen, did you speak to 4 Peter Allen on September the 6th? 5 A: I don't -- I don't know. 6 Q: Was it Peter Allen who passed on the 7 statement to you? 8 A: I have no memory of that. 9 Q: Mr. Jeff Bangs? Did you know Mr. 10 Bangs on September the 6th? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Ms. Leith Hunter? Did you know Ms. 13 Hunter? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Mr. Barry Jones? 16 A: I may have met him a couple of times, 17 but that's -- 18 Q: Did you speak to him on September the 19 6th? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: And was it Mr. Barry Jones who passed 22 on the statement? 23 A: I don't recall. 24 Q: Mr. Robert Savage, did you know who 25 he was?
231 A: No. 2 Q: Mr. Peter Sturdy? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Mr. Ron Baldwin? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And lastly, Mr. David Carson? 7 A: Yes, I know David Carson. 8 Q: And I understand that you had lunch 9 on the -- September the 6th with Mr. Carson, Ms. Marissa 10 Mills, and Mr. Kevin Bell; is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did Mr. Carson tell you about 13 what went on at the Interministerial Meeting? 14 A: Not that I recall. 15 Q: And did Mr. Carson -- was he the 16 source of the statement that you attribute to Deb Hutton? 17 A: Not that I recall. 18 Q: And what about Marissa Mills? Who's 19 Marissa Mills? 20 A: Marissa Mills was one (1) of the 21 lawyers at the Secretariat at that time. 22 Q: And did Marissa Mills pass on the 23 statement to you? 24 A: Not to my memory. 25 Q: And Kevin Bell (phonetic)? Who was
241 Kevin Bell? 2 A: Another legal counsel at the 3 Secretariat. 4 Q: And did you learn the statement from 5 Mr. Kevin Bell? 6 A: Not to my memory. 7 Q: And what did you do after you heard 8 the statement from wherever you heard it? 9 A: When I heard the -- the statement 10 that I -- that I mentioned earlier I was very shocked. I 11 was very upset that it seemed that the direction on the 12 Interministerial or -- or Blockade Committee was not 13 proceeding as we had normally done in the past, re. being 14 working in the Province of Ontario, other -- other 15 occupations, blockades or situations. 16 It had always been the goal of the 17 Blockade Committee to find ways to diffuse the situation, 18 ascertain the interests of the parties and then deal with 19 it. This was the opposite of the way we had worked for 20 many years and I was afraid that people's lives may be at 21 stake. So -- excuse me. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: And knowing that you cannot talk
251 about these kinds of things in the office at that time 2 and my recollection is that I obtained this information 3 from a reliable source. I called a friend, a well- 4 respected friend in what we would call Indian Country, to 5 advise as to what I had heard so that he could discreetly 6 and quietly pass on a warning. 7 Q: And to whom did you expect that he 8 would pass on the warning, Ms. Kohsed-Currie? 9 A: Pardon me? 10 Q: To whom did you want him to pass on 11 the warning or hoped he would pass on the warning? 12 A: The people in the Park. 13 Q: And the person you spoke to was Mr. 14 Bob Watts? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the -- Ms. -- you told me earlier 17 that you can't recall when you learned about the 18 statement -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- or -- on September the 6th. Can 21 you recall when -- approximately when you called Mr. 22 Watts? 23 A: My recollection is it's the early 24 afternoon. 25 Q: Early afternoon?
261 A: Yes. 2 Q: And when you say, "the early 3 afternoon," what time would you put that? 4 A: 1:30 -- between 1:30 and 2:30. 5 Q: And Mr. Watts thought you had called 6 him earlier at around I think eleven o'clock or 11:30. I 7 know it's ten (10) years ago and only lawyers ask these 8 kinds of questions, Ms. Kohsed-Currie, but does that 9 assist with the timing of the call? 10 Might it have been at 11:00, 11:30, twelve 11 o'clock? 12 A: My memory is it was the afternoon. 13 Q: Your memory is the afternoon? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And how long was the conversation 16 that you had with him? 17 A: It was very brief, two (2) to three 18 (3) minutes at the very most. 19 Q: Most. And do you recall what you 20 said to -- to Mr. Watts? 21 A: I can't say that I recall every word 22 that I said other than what I've said earlier as to what 23 I had heard. 24 Q: You passed on the statement that you 25 had heard --
271 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- contributed to Ms. Hutton? 3 A: I did pass on the statement to -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- Mr. Watts. We did not discuss 6 anything about what to do with what I had told him. We 7 did not discuss confidentiality of my name or anything if 8 he's talking to others. Like, if they asked, Where did 9 you hear this; we didn't discuss that either. 10 Q: But -- 11 A: It was a very brief call. Part of 12 the time I was on hold waiting to talk to him so that's 13 why I think it was two (2) to three (3) minutes. 14 Q: And were you aware that at the time 15 that Mr. Watts spoke to Chief Tom Bressette? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Were you aware that Mr. -- Chief Tom 18 Bressette made a statement on Sarnia radio? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And with respect to the ONAS, you 21 said that you did not want to raise your concerns with 22 anyone at the ONAS office or... 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And why was that, Ms. Kohsed-Currie? 25 A: Basically when these meetings operate
281 you're not supposed to know what's going on. They're 2 supposed to be -- they are supposed to be confidential 3 also. So that the fact that colleagues were talking and 4 there was talk going throughout the office, I mean you, 5 sort of, keep it as quiet as possible and -- 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: You keep it as quiet as possible and 8 it's only, like, people that you really trust that you 9 even talk with if you even talk about what you've heard. 10 Q: And so I take it you -- you didn't 11 talk to anyone at the ONAS office about the statement 12 attributed to Deb Hutton? 13 A: Not to my memory. 14 Q: And were you aware that the consensus 15 reached at the Inter -- the Interministerial Committee 16 Meeting was that the -- there would be an injunction 17 sought? Did anyone tell you that? 18 A: Not to my memory. 19 Q: And as you are aware, Ms. Kohsed- 20 Currie, the statement -- the source of the statement is 21 important to the Commission and the Commissioner and I 22 would ask again if you would search your mind to see if 23 you can determine who told you the statement. 24 A: I have searched my mind for quite a 25 while on that and I really am blank. I don't have a
291 name. 2 Q: And the -- when did you learn that -- 3 of the death of Mr. Dudley George? 4 A: On the radio at six (6) Sunday 5 morning after he was killed. 6 Q: On September 7th? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And did you have a discussion that 9 day with Mr. Bob Watts? 10 A: With Bob Watts? 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: Yes, brief. 13 Q: And what -- can you just tell us 14 about that? It was a brief discussion? 15 A: He called about ten to 7:00 that 16 morning I believe and asked if I'd heard the news and I 17 said yes. And I'm not sure that there was much more said 18 because I then had tears. 19 Q: And the -- thank you very much. 20 Those are my questions, Commissioner. Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much. 23 Does anybody have any questions of Ms. 24 Kohsed-Currie? 25 Mr. Downard does. Yes, Mr. Downard...?
301 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 5 Q: Ms. Currie -- Ms. Kohsed-Currie. My 6 name is Peter Downard and I appear for the former chair 7 Premier Mike Harris. I just have a few questions for 8 you. 9 A: Good morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me. I 11 apologize to Mr. Downard. I take it only Mr. Downard 12 wishes to ask questions? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's all 14 that stood up, so I'm assuming that. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Other than perhaps -- 16 nope. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you may 18 because this -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Perschy did -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 21 sorry. 22 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: I may have some 23 questions depending on Mr. Downard's cross. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So, we have Mr. 25 Downard and perhaps Ms. Perschy.
311 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And possibly 2 Ms. Perschy. Okay. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And possibly Mr. 4 Myrka. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 7 Q: Just a few questions. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: Now, as I understand what was 10 reported to you was that Deb Hutton had said in the 11 Interministerial Committee meeting that the Premier was 12 hawkish, correct? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And that the Premier had said, 15 "Get those fucking Indians out of the 16 Park and use guns if you have to.", 17 right? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Right. And you were shocked when you 20 heard this, right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: That -- I take it you would agree 23 that's a plainly inappropriate statement to make in a 24 government meeting? 25 A: Yes.
321 Q: For a number of reasons, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: In that it -- it was a statement that 4 would appear to -- to sanction the use of firearms? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: Against citizens? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And obviously there's the matter of 9 the obscene language involved which is also inappropriate 10 although, I suppose, of far less significance threatening 11 the use of firearms? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Correct? 14 A: Sure. 15 Q: All right. So, you were shocked 16 about this? 17 A: Yes, I was. 18 Q: All right. And did it strike you as 19 being inappropriate conduct by Ms. Hutton in this meeting 20 to make a statement like that? 21 A: I didn't think about that. 22 Q: You didn't think -- you just were 23 concerned about the statement? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yes. And it was a shocking statement
331 to you? 2 A: I was very shocked, yes. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: And I was also afraid of what it 5 meant and what would happen. 6 Q: Okay. It was a very upsetting 7 statement? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And it's a very dramatic 10 situation, right? 11 A: You mean the -- 12 Q: It's a dramatic situation? 13 A: That there's an occupation? 14 Q: No. That -- or -- that there's an 15 occupation that a statement like this is -- is -- that 16 you say a statement like this was made by a person 17 working with the Premier of Ontario when the Government 18 was deciding how to respond to the occupation, right? 19 Wasn't that an upsetting statement? 20 A: Yes. I said it was upsetting, yes. 21 Q: All right. But you say to us that 22 you don't remember who passed this information onto you? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Well I'm -- I'm just having a little 25 bit of difficulty with that. Because wouldn't this be a
341 -- it's a shocking event, it's an upsetting event but you 2 don't recall who told you this? 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: Would you agree -- wouldn't you agree 5 with me that you would think that with a memorable event 6 like this that ordinarily you would recall such matters? 7 A: That's possible. But, this was -- 8 the whole situation was -- what happened with the death 9 of Mr. Dudley George, and I'm not sure what happened, but 10 the fact that Mr. George was killed was shocking, as over 11 the years of my work with the Provincial Government, 12 never before had a situation like this ended in anybody's 13 death. 14 There had always been attempts to defuse 15 and always had been very successful in diffusing the 16 situation and then trying to address the issues. When 17 that happened, personally and in my work world, there was 18 an incredible change in attitude and spirit about work 19 because obviously there had been a change in the style of 20 working with indigenous peoples in Ontario. 21 And that's how it was interpreted by many 22 of us, because there wasn't -- coming out of those 23 meetings there wasn't an attempt or an indication that 24 there would be attempts to talk with people to try to 25 find a way to diffuse the situation at the Park and find
351 a way to talk about the issues and resolve them because 2 to date we had always talked. 3 And I had worked in various situations 4 where we as employees of the Provincial Government would 5 talk with the people at a blockade, at demonstrations, at 6 barricades and try to diffuse them and we usually did. 7 Q: Okay. Well, let's come back to my 8 question. This was plainly a very dramatic sequence of 9 events for you. 10 You appear to describe the events at 11 Ipperwash Park and the death of Dudley George as being in 12 a sense pivotal in the way you -- you viewed the 13 management of First Nations relations; is that fair? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: A very significant event, right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the sequence of events is very 18 significant -- significant to you because you say, you 19 received this information that this dramatic statement 20 had been made in this meeting and then within twenty-four 21 (24) hours there's been violence at the Park and Dudley 22 George is dead, right? 23 So, that's all very upsetting and very 24 dramatic, right? 25 A: Yes.
361 Q: So, what I'm having trouble with is 2 given that this is so dramatic, you say you don't 3 remember who told you this. 4 A: No, I don't. 5 Q: All right. Well you -- you told us 6 that -- 7 A: Could I add one thing? That I would 8 say that for the last ten (10) years, people in our 9 office and even in private life, we didn't really talk 10 about this whole event. People at work -- we did not 11 talk about the occupation and the death of Mr. George. 12 It was a touchy subject and there was -- 13 you just didn't talk about so I'm not sure that not 14 talking about it doesn't help you erase memories. 15 Q: Okay. Well let's come back to my -- 16 my question about who your -- your source was. You said 17 in your evidence today that your source was reliable. 18 How do you know that? 19 A: I don't I would have made the call to 20 Mr. Watts if I didn't believe the information I had was 21 reliable -- from a reliable person. 22 Q: Okay. Well, you recall -- okay, so 23 you recall something about the person, that they were a 24 reliable person in your view, right? 25 A: That's what I recall.
371 Q: Do you recall anything else about the 2 person? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Nothing at all. 5 A: No. I can't tell -- 6 Q: Except -- except for the one fact 7 that it justified your conduct as you would describe? 8 A: Which factor would that be? 9 Q: That you perceived them as being 10 reliable. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: Okay. Is it possible -- let me ask 13 you something else first. You say people just didn't 14 speak in the office about these things, right? 15 A: Correct, after. 16 Q: All right. Well people obviously -- 17 well -- oh so, immediately after, but before the shooting 18 of Dudley George people spoke about things but not after? 19 A: After, it was very quiet in the 20 office. But before there was -- there was information 21 floating around the office as to what was going on in the 22 -- the Committee, the Emergency Planning Committee. 23 Q: Okay. All right. Well you heard 24 this dramatic statement that you told us about and as I 25 understand you did not seek to have that information
381 corroborated by anyone else; is that right? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You didn't ask anyone else whether 4 this had happened, right? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: All right. And who did you report to 7 in the office? 8 A: At that time, let's see, it was 9 probably, let me -- I would think it might Lise Hanson. 10 Q: Well did you go to Lisa Hanson and 11 say, I just heard the most alarming thing? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Why wouldn't you do that? 14 A: You don't talk about things that have 15 scared you and you don't talk about what's going on in 16 these committee meetings in the office. 17 Q: Well, but this -- this is a very 18 serious matter. If -- if what you're saying is true, 19 that would be a very serious matter. And why wouldn't 20 you go to your supervisor at least and say, I -- I've 21 heard that this terrible statement was made by this 22 executive assistant. She's plainly acted improperly in a 23 meeting? What should we do about this? 24 Why wouldn't you seek the guidance or 25 assistance of -- of someone else about such a -- a
391 dramatic statement being conveyed to you? 2 A: I didn't even think about it. 3 Q: You didn't even think about it? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Well, I want to make a couple 6 of suggestions to you or just ask you a couple 7 possibilities. 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: Is it possible that this isn't a 10 matter of your not remembering a source, but that you 11 want to protect the identity of your source? 12 Is that a possibility? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Is it possible that what happened and 15 I suggest to you this may be what happened, that you 16 heard or that someone told you that Deb Hutton had used 17 this term, 'hawkish' in a Premier's meeting with respect 18 to the Premier's views and that you fabricated the 19 additional words in order to convey a more dramatic 20 message to Mr. Watts or people outside the Government? 21 Is that possible? 22 A: Not to my memory. 23 Q: So, you were told by this person who 24 you can remember being reliable, but whom you can't 25 remember anything else about that the Premier was -- the
401 Prem -- there had been said in the meeting by Deb Hutton, 2 "the Premier was hawkish" 3 and that he wanted to 4 "get those fucking Indians out of the 5 Park and use guns if you have to", 6 right? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: That's exactly what somebody told 9 you? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: Okay. Now, when Mr. Watts testified 12 here he was very, very clear. He said this at least 13 three (3) separate times in his evidence that what he was 14 told by you was that the source, your source of this 15 statement was Julie Jai. 16 He said that under oath three (3) times at 17 least, and you're saying that that is absolutely not 18 correct? 19 Is that right? 20 A: That is not my memory at all. I 21 would have had limited reason to talk with Julie even in 22 our workday. 23 Q: And he also testified that you 24 requested him and -- and -- we -- we had a fair bit of 25 litigation --
411 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- here on this -- this matter based 3 upon this, he stated very clearly that you requested him 4 not to reveal your identity after you had provided this 5 information to him. 6 Now, as I understand your evidence today 7 you're saying that is not correct? 8 A: My memory is we didn't discuss that 9 on the telephone call. We certainly discussed it later. 10 Q: Well, is it -- what I'm going to 11 suggest to you is that no one ever told you that the 12 Premier said that people should 13 "get the fucking Indians out of the 14 Park and use guns", 15 but that you were concerned about the 16 approach the Government was going take, that you 17 fabricated that statement in communicating to Mr. Watts 18 and that at the time you did indeed request that he not 19 disclose your identity because you knew that what you 20 were saying was not true. I'm just putting to that to 21 you for your response. 22 Am I correct or am I wrong? 23 A: You're wrong. 24 Q: Thank you very much. Those are my 25 questions.
421 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 Do you have any questions, Ms. Perschy? 3 No. 4 Do you have any questions, Mr. Myrka? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Good morning, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WALTER MYRKA: 14 Q: Ms. Kohsed-Currie, Mr. Millar in -- 15 in his questions asked you about the location of your 16 office as compared to where the green boardroom was. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what I wanted to just clarify 19 with you was the boardroom far or was it close to your 20 office? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Just so as you understand -- 25 A: Yes.
431 Q: -- what I'm trying to get at, is it 2 possible that you heard things going on at the meeting 3 through the walls -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- as opposed to -- all right. So, 6 you didn't hear anything that went on at the meeting 7 itself? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: No, I was at least one (1) -- two (2) 11 rooms away, physically away. 12 Q: Okay. And you described the person 13 who provided this information to you as, you believe to 14 this day, was a reliable source of information? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did I understand your evidence to 17 be that you believed it reliable because, if at the time 18 you hadn't thought it was reliable, you would not have 19 called Mr. Watts? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Okay. And -- and it's on the basis 22 of that, that you say today that, in your view, it had to 23 have been a reliable source? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Is that fair?
441 A: That's fair. 2 Q: Okay. And you indicated that the 3 person could not have been Ms. Julie Jai? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And when you were asked by Mr. 6 Downard about Julie Jai, if I understood your evidence, 7 you said that there would have been limited contact 8 between you and Ms. Jai? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And can you held us to understand why 11 that was the case? 12 A: Julie was the acting director of the 13 Legal Branch at the time. I did not have any working 14 relationship, we didn't share files, so contact would be 15 purely in a sense, social, like, getting coffee, getting 16 tea, going to the washroom, that kind of stuff, on the 17 elevator rides. 18 There would be nothing really work wise -- 19 work basis -- nothing where -- in the work world for us 20 to really sit down and talk about matters. 21 Q: Before September 6th, would you have 22 had occasion to talk directly to Ms. Jai about work- 23 related matters? 24 A: Not that I recall. 25 Q: Okay. Was she someone that you might
451 have spoken to and -- to discuss work issues, to seek out 2 her advice? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I can't recall if I would or wouldn't 7 at that time. I think Julie had just come to the office 8 a few months earlier. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. Hmm hmm. 10 A: So, I'm not sure if we'd even had 11 much of an opportunity to have discussions about work. 12 Q: And as you've indicated, she was not 13 the person who told you about what had transpired at the 14 meeting on -- 15 A: Right. 16 Q: -- on September 6th? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Is it possible that what you recall 19 may have been what you heard from a number of different 20 people, as opposed to one person specifically? 21 A: I think I -- okay, there was a lot of 22 chatter in the office about what was going on in the 23 Emergency Planning Interministerial Committee. 24 There were tidbits of information coming 25 out which probably aren't supposed to, so people were
461 talking. And the statement that I passed on to Mr. Watts, 2 I recall receiving from one particular person or one 3 person. 4 Q: And can you assist us as to why it 5 was Mr. Watts that you called with this information? 6 A: Yes, Mr. Watts is -- we had been 7 colleagues for a number of years. We worked together on 8 a number of files. I have a great deal of respect for 9 him. 10 He has a lot of respect in the indigenous 11 community in Ontario and across the country. 12 I trusted Bob to discreetly and quietly 13 pass on a warning that would hopefully get a word to the 14 people occupying the Park that there was a potential for 15 a change in the conduct of the Province in this kind of 16 situation, so that maybe it could at least advise people. 17 It seems that Ontario was not in a talking 18 mode that it used to be and it seemed that it possible -- 19 was not going to be talking as the way it had been 20 talking in these situations to try to diffuse the matter 21 and in turn his attempt to try to say to people, Be 22 careful, your life could be -- or your lives could be at 23 stake. 24 Now, do I understand that the concern that 25 you wanted relayed through a warning had to do with an
471 overall change in direction because there was a new 2 government in June of 1995 or, alternatively, and maybe 3 it's a bit of both, was it more specifically related to 4 the takeover of Ipperwash Provincial Park on September 5 4th? 6 A: This was related specifically to the 7 Park situation, the occupation of the Ipperwash 8 Provincial Park. 9 Q: And the warning, did you discuss with 10 Mr. Watts what the content of the warning should be? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I -- I respect him -- I respect him 14 to be discreet and -- expected him to be discreet and 15 subtle and quiet. 16 Q: And do you recall discussing with him 17 to whom he should issue the warning? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. And you didn't discuss with 20 him speaking to Chief Bressette? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you discuss with him speaking to 23 the Stoney Pointers themselves? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. Now, with respect to the
481 words -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: Your recollection today is that the 4 words that you heard besides the Premier being hawkish -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Were words to the effect of getting - 7 - get the f-ing Indians out of the Park? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And so you have a distinct 10 recollection of the obscenity as -- as part of those 11 words? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And you recall today, 14 specifically, what was attributed to the Premier, rightly 15 or wrongly, was the comment to use guns to do it, or 16 words to that effect? 17 A: Something like that, yes. 18 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether the 19 person who spoke to you, for example, was male or female? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Do you recall where it was that you 22 were when you had this discussion with that person? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. And you're confident that the 25 person was not any of those individuals that Mr. Millar
491 took you through, including Ms. Jai and Ms. Hipfner? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Thank you. Those are my 4 questions, Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. Mr. Millar...? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I've just a couple of 8 questions. 9 10 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Following up on the question that Mr. 12 Myrka asked you and which followed up on a question that 13 I'd asked, the person that you spoke to, if it wasn't one 14 of the people who I've listed who attended the meeting, 15 is it fair to say that it was a person who did not attend 16 the meeting? 17 A: Could be fair, yes. 18 Q: Pardon me? 19 A: That could be fair. I don't -- I 20 don't recall. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Sorry, I really do not recall. 23 Q: And when you spoke to Mr. Watts, you 24 indicated to Mr. Downard and to me that you didn't 25 discuss then the issue of confidentiality, but did you
501 think that Mr. Watts would use your name in whoever he 2 talked to? 3 A: No, I expected him not to use my 4 name. 5 Q: And you assumed he wouldn't? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And you told Mr. Downard that you 8 discussed confidentiality later. At the time of the 9 conversation, is it fair to say it was implicit that he 10 wouldn't release your name to anyone? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And when you discussed 13 confidentiality later, what did you discuss? 14 A: We discussed that Bob was being asked 15 to pro -- 16 Q: But that was -- 17 A: Sorry? 18 Q: But that was just recently, the 19 discussion that you're referring to? 20 A: No, in the last ten (10) years. 21 Q: In the last -- 22 A: The few times that Bob and I have 23 talked, and he has said that he has been asked by people. 24 I don't know who offhand. 25 I know one was Chief Bressette. And I'm
511 not sure if there are other people who asked, who called, 2 who he got his information from. 3 And also before that, Bob was being asked 4 to release his name, too. So, until about March -- I 5 think it's the -- yeah, it's the 3rd of March or so, or 6 was -- 7 Q: Of this year? 8 A: Yes, sorry, I'm going to do this. 9 The 3rd, when Chief Bressette announced Bob Watts as his 10 -- the person who called him and that's when I knew that 11 Bob would be asked to reveal my name here. 12 Q: But when you discussed the issue with 13 Mr. Watts prior to this year was it on the basis that he 14 would not release your name? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. Thank you. Those are my 17 question, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 21 Ms. Kohsed-Currie. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much for giving us your evidence. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. 25 Commissioner.
521 2 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 3 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is a 5 little early for a break, but we'll take a short morning 6 break now before you call the next witness. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. Thank you very 8 much. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 11:24 a.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 11:40 a.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed. Please take a seat. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, the 18 Commission calls as its next witness, Inspector Scott 19 Patrick 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 21 morning, Mr. Patrick. 22 MR. SCOTT PATRICK: Good morning, Your 23 Honour. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. 25 Patrick. Could you state your name in full for us,
531 please? 2 MR. SCOTT PATRICK: Scott Douglas 3 Patrick. 4 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 5 6 SCOTT DOUGLAS PATRICK, Sworn 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 9 10 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Inspector Patrick, I understand that 12 you joined the Ontario Provincial Police in June, 1982? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And your first posting was with the 15 Killaloe, K-I-L-L-A-L-O-E, Detachment near Pembrooke? 16 A: Killaloe Detachment, yes. 17 Q: And that's near Pembrooke? 18 A: It is, sir. 19 Q: And you were posted there for six (6) 20 years? 21 A: Approximately. 22 Q: And as I understand it, much of your 23 time was spent policing the First Nation Community of 24 Golden Lake? 25 A: A portion of it, yes.
541 Q: And you then, while you were there, 2 became -- were assigned as the OPP First Nation Liaison 3 Officer for the territory? 4 A: I was, sir. 5 Q: And as I understand it, in February 6 of 1998, you were transferred to OPP General Headquarters 7 in Toronto, and worked in the Policy Branch? 8 A: I did, sir, and it was -- it was 9 February 1988. 10 Q: February 1988? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And as I understand it, one of your 13 assignments was to develop revisions to the First Nations 14 Policing Policy for the OPP? 15 A: That's correct, yes. 16 Q: And in February of 1991, you were 17 transferred to the -- what was then called the Indian and 18 Municipal Policing Branch of the OPP as an Acting 19 Sergeant? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And you assisted in administering 22 what became the OPP First Nations Policing Program in 23 Ontario? 24 A: That's correct, yes. 25 Q: And during this period of time, I
551 understand you did some work on the Akwesasne First 2 Nation near Cornwall? 3 A: I did, sir, yes. 4 Q: And you also provided negotiation 5 support to the Special Advisor First Nations? 6 A: I did. 7 Q: And during that period of time in the 8 early '90s, that person was a Commissioned Officer of the 9 OPP seconded to the Deputy Solicitor General's Office? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And in 1993, March 1993, you were 12 promoted to Sergeant? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And in March 1995, as an Acting Staff 15 Sergeant you were seconded to the Deputy Minister's 16 Office as a First Nations Policing Advisor reporting to 17 the Special Advisor on First Nations, Inspector Ron Fox? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And the -- as the Assistant -- in 20 effect you became Ron Fox's assistant? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what was your role as his 23 assistant? 24 A: We -- our primary function in the 25 Deputy Minister's Office were to represent the Province
561 at the negotiations of a number of Tripartite Policing 2 Agreements, that was our primary function. 3 And, so I would assist him in those 4 negotiations. 5 Q: And you had, as I understand it, an 6 office in Toronto at the Ministry of the Solicitor 7 General as well as an office at the General Headquarters 8 in Orillia? 9 A: That's correct, yes. 10 Q: And your -- in April 1996, you became 11 the Special Advisor First Nations when you -- you 12 replaced Ron Fox; is that correct? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And -- and October 1996, you were 15 confirmed as a Staff Sergeant? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you remained as First Special 18 Advisor of First Nations until September 1998? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: When you returned -- left the 21 Ministry of the Solicitor General and returned to active 22 duty? 23 A: That's correct, yes. 24 Q: And you were promoted to Inspector on 25 January 12th, 1998?
571 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And you're currently assigned as an 3 Inspector in the Contract Policing Section First Nations 4 and Contracting Police Bureau General Headquarters, 5 Orillia? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And you've been in that position for 8 the past four (4) years? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you, as I understand it, were 11 aware of the Statement of Political Relationship which is 12 part of Exhibit P-643 that appears as Tab 1 of the binder 13 in front of you? 14 A: Yes, I was. 15 Q: And you are aware of that as I 16 understand it prior to joining the Office of the Special 17 Advisor First Nations? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And how did you become of that, sir? 20 A: It was a significant document for 21 those in government that worked in the area of First 22 Nations and so it -- it was well known while I was at the 23 First Nations and Contract Policing Bureau and before I 24 joined the office of the Deputy Solicitor General. 25 Q: And it was an important statement of
581 the then-government? 2 A: It was, yes. 3 Q: And in June of 1995 there was a 4 change in government and on June 26th, 1995 the 5 government of then-Premier Michael Harris was sworn in? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: You're aware of that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And after the new government took 10 over I understand that you participated in certain 11 briefings? 12 A: I did. 13 Q: And who did you brief? 14 A: Superintendent Fox and I briefed the 15 new Deputy Solicitor General who was Elaine Todres. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: And we also briefed Minister Bob 18 Runciman who was the new Solicitor General as well as his 19 executive assistant Ms. Kathryn Hunt. 20 Q: And did these -- did you brief Ms. 21 Todres, Mr. Runciman, and Ms. Hunt altogether or 22 separate? 23 A: I don't believe they were briefed 24 together, I recall briefing the Deputy Minister 25 separately and then we had further briefings through the
591 summer with the Minister and his executive assistant. 2 Q: And his executive assistant was Ms. 3 Hunt? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And can you just tell us what you -- 6 to the best of your recollection what you briefed them 7 about? 8 A: Primarily context setting for both 9 the Deputy and the Minister in terms of the status of the 10 current policing negotiations that we were tasked with, 11 giving them the sense of -- of the direction we had been 12 proceeding in and there were discussions around funding 13 and future negotiating mandate and that type of thing. 14 Q: So the briefing related to -- 15 specifically to the role that you were playing with 16 respect to negotiating the tripartite agreements? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And did you brief them do you recall 19 on cultural issues surrounding policing of First Nations 20 communities? 21 A: I believe the extent of the briefing 22 in terms of cultural issues would have related to that. 23 First Nations aspired to be policed by First Nations 24 officers and that that was a approach that had the 25 support of the OPP and had -- and had been the direction
601 of the government. 2 Q: The -- the previous government? 3 A: Correct, yes. 4 Q: And the -- when did you first learn 5 about the issues at Camp Ipperwash? 6 A: I had a general awareness of the 7 issues at Base Ipperwash and that would have -- I was 8 aware of that going back to about 1993. 9 Q: And you were aware that members of 10 the community had occupied part of the -- the Base? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you have any understanding as 13 to why the occupation took place? 14 A: Not that I can recall specifically. 15 Q: And when did you learn about the 16 takeover of the built-up area of the Army Camp? 17 A: I was advised by Inspector Doug Scott 18 who at the time I believe was the Executive Officer to 19 the Deputy Commissioner of Field and I was contacted at 20 home in July about a -- a takeover of a portion of the 21 Base and as a result of that I advised the Deputy 22 Minister that there had been a recent incident. 23 Q: Okay. And if I could take you to Tab 24 2 of the book in front of you, it's Inquiry Document 25 2000941, there's a reference on -- this document appears
611 to be the duty log of -- daily log of the Duty NCO at the 2 General Headquarters in Orillia? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And there's a reference at page 3 at 5 12:02 to Inspector D. Scott who was seeking your 6 telephone number? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And was it sometime after 12:02 that 9 you spoke to Inspector Scott? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Do you know when? 12 A: I believe it was during the noon 13 hour. 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: I believe it was during the noon 16 hour. 17 Q: Okay. And you then passed the 18 information onto the Deputy Minister who was Elaine 19 Todres? 20 A: Yes. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could mark 22 that the next exhibit, it would be P-762? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 762. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-762: GHQ Duty NCO log for July
621 30/'95, 07:00 A.M. to 07:00 2 A.M. December. Document 3 Number 2000941. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: Do you recall having a discussion on 7 July 30th, 1995 with Julie Jai regarding the takeover? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: Ms. Jai indicated that she did have a 10 conversation with you, but you simply don't remember? 11 A: That's correct, yes. 12 Q: And you don't disagree that if Ms. 13 Jai indicated that you had a conversation with her about 14 the takeover that that conversation took place? 15 A: No, I don't disagree with that. 16 Q: And prior to September -- August 1995 17 had you ever attended an Interministerial Committee 18 Meeting on Aboriginal Emergencies or the Blockade 19 Committee because it had a number of different names? 20 A: Yes, sir, I did. 21 Q: And when was that? 22 A: It would have been the period between 23 1991 and I believe '93. 24 Q: And why would -- why did you attend 25 the meetings?
631 A: I recall attending once at the 2 request of Inspector Doug Scott who was then the Special 3 Advisor -- 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: -- for First Nations issues and a 6 second time I recall attending in place of Inspector 7 Scott; he was unable to make the meeting. 8 Q: And the meetings dealt with blockades 9 or occupations that were taking place? 10 A: They dealt with an issue of 11 aboriginal protest, I don't exactly recall what the 12 issues were though. 13 Q: Okay. And what role did you play at 14 those meetings, the two (2) meetings? Was there more 15 than two (2) or...? 16 A: I believe there may have been more 17 than two (2), but those are the two (2) that I -- that I 18 recall. 19 Q: You recall? Yes? And what role did 20 you play at those meetings? 21 A: The role that I played was to provide 22 any information relative to the event from the OPP in 23 terms of what might be transpiring on the ground at the 24 site. 25 Q: And what -- in terms of simply what
641 was happening? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And anything else? 4 A: Not that I recall, no. 5 Q: Did you act as a conduit of 6 information to the OPP from the meeting? 7 A: Not that I recall, sir. 8 Q: And in the summer of 1995 were you 9 aware of the guidelines for responding to aboriginal 10 emergencies (blockades)? It's Inquiry Document 1012232 11 which has been marked. It's at Tab 5 of the book in 12 front of you, Inspector Patrick, and it's Exhibit P-498. 13 Were you aware of the guidelines? 14 A: Yes, I was. 15 Q: And how -- you learned -- how had you 16 learned about the guidelines? 17 A: When Superintendent Fox had been 18 assigned or seconded to the office of the Special Advisor 19 Superintendent Currie who was his immediate predecessor 20 and myself briefed him on various issues and I recall 21 that this is one (1) of the -- one (1) of the documents 22 that we used in that briefing. 23 Q: And we know that there was an 24 Interministerial Committee Meeting on August the 2nd, 25 1995 and we know that you didn't attend that meeting;
651 that's correct, you didn't attend? 2 A: That's correct, yes. 3 Q: And why did you not attend that 4 meeting? 5 A: I believe I was in Orillia preparing 6 for some policing negotiations that were about to occur. 7 Q: And did you receive any information 8 from Mr. -- from Inspector Fox -- then Inspector Fox as 9 to what was happening with respect to the Ipperwash 10 matter -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- in August after that meeting in 13 August of 1995? 14 A: I don't have a specific recollection 15 other than we had some discussion throughout August in 16 terms of the issues at Ipperwash. 17 Q: And what did those discussions refer 18 to: the Park, the Camp or what? 19 A: I recall at one (1) point 20 Superintendent Fox indicating there was a possibility or 21 a likelihood or a potential for a possible occupation of 22 the Provincial Park. 23 Q: And do you recall when he told you 24 that? 25 A: It was during the month of August.
661 Q: And he advised you that it was -- 2 there was a -- they'd heard there was a potential of an 3 occupation of the Park? 4 A: That's correct, yes. 5 Q: And do you recall if he told you 6 anything else? 7 A: We had a discussion at one (1) point 8 with respect to the possibility of a First Nations burial 9 site being located in the Park. I believe that that was 10 during the month of August as well, some time prior to 11 the meeting in September. 12 Q: Some time prior to the meeting in 13 September? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And we know that on the evening of 16 September the 4th, 1995 the Park was occupied and how did 17 you learn about the occupation of the Park, sir? 18 A: I don't specifically recall who told 19 me. I -- I know that I had discussions with 20 Superintendent Fox and I -- it was also the events of 21 September 4th were well known at the OPP headquarters in 22 the branch that I worked at. 23 Q: And on September the 5th there was an 24 Interministerial Committee Meeting that we know about 25 that took place on that date to deal with the occupation
671 of the Park. 2 Did you attend that meeting? 3 A: No, I didn't. 4 Q: And why not? 5 A: Similar to my previous answer with 6 respect to the meeting that was in August I was at 7 General Headquarters in Orillia preparing for a 8 Transition Committee meeting which was -- 9 Q: And did you speak to then Inspector 10 Fox with respect to the meeting? 11 Did he brief you on the meeting? 12 A: He phoned me late on the 5th, late in 13 the afternoon and advised that there had been a meeting 14 and that he required me to attend with him the following 15 morning. 16 Q: And prior to -- other than the 17 conversations that you may have had with Mr. -- then 18 Inspector Fox in August 1995 and the advice with respect 19 to the takeover of the built-up area at the end of July 20 1995 was this your first direct involvement, the request 21 to attend the meeting with respect to Ipperwash? 22 A: Yes, it was. 23 Q: And so he asked you to attend with 24 him at a meeting scheduled for September the 6th? 25 A: Yes, the following morning.
681 Q: And did you receive any briefing or 2 other information with respect to the issue on September 3 the 5th? 4 A: Briefly Superintendent Fox indicated 5 that it had been a -- the meeting on the 5th had been a 6 large meeting, that it had been attended by a number of 7 representatives from various ministries, that the purpose 8 -- that the substance of the discussions related to the 9 occupation of the Park and resolving that quickly. 10 Q: And did he -- did Inspector, then 11 Inspector Fox on September 5th, talk to you about the 12 OPP's position? 13 A: Not that I recall specifically. 14 Q: And so on September the 6th the -- on 15 September the 5th, I take it, from what you had said, you 16 were in Orillia? 17 A: I was, sir. 18 Q: And then did you travel to Toronto on 19 September the 6th? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: And did you meet with Mr. Fox, then 22 Inspector Fox, before the Interministerial Committee 23 Meeting? 24 A: I did, yes. 25 Q: And where did you meet?
691 A: We met at our offices on Bloor 2 Street. 3 Q: And the -- our offices on Bloor 4 Street, you're referring to the offices of the Deputy 5 Solicitor General? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And that was at Bloor and Church? 8 A: It was, one -- 9 Q: Or Bloor and Jarvis? 10 A: Bloor and Jarvis, 175 Bloor, I 11 believe, is the address. 12 Q: And what transpired at your meeting 13 with Mr. -- with then Inspector Fox? 14 A: I don't have a specific recollection 15 other than I arrived there approximately an hour, an hour 16 and a half before the Interministerial Committee Meeting, 17 and I recall Superintendent Fox was busy with -- with 18 some tasks. I -- I recall he was taking phone calls and 19 I believe he had spoken or was speaking to the Deputy 20 Solicitor General. 21 Q: Yes. And when you spoke to him, Mr. 22 Fox, what did he tell you about the issue of Ipperwash, 23 on the morning of September 6th? 24 A: I don't recall if he related anything 25 further to me than what he had from the previous day.
701 Q: Okay. And did he tell you why he 2 wanted you to attend the meeting on September the 6th? 3 A: No, he didn't. 4 Q: And did you attend the meeting on 5 September the 6th? 6 A: I did, sir. 7 Q: And did you, at the meeting, the 8 meeting as we understand it, it was -- was held at the 9 Native Affairs Secretariat Offices; is that correct? 10 A: Yes, at 595 Bay Street. 11 Q: And, were there, at the meeting on 12 September the 6th, did the individuals attending the 13 meeting introduce themselves? 14 A: They did, yes. 15 Q: And did you introduce yourself? 16 A: I did. 17 Q: And how did you introduce yourself? 18 A: As Scott Patrick, from the Deputy 19 Solicitor General's Office. 20 Q: And did you identify yourself as 21 Scott Patrick, an Ontario Provincial Police Officer? 22 A: No, I didn't. 23 Q: And do you recall how Superintendent 24 Fox introduced himself? 25 A: In the same fashion as -- as myself.
711 Q: Did he say that he was a Member of 2 the Ontario Provincial Police? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: And the -- we know that you have some 5 notes, but before turning to your notes, can you tell us 6 what you recall of the meeting, on September the 6th? 7 A: I recall that it -- it commenced at 8 approximately nine-thirty in the morning, it was in the 9 large ONAS Board Room. I had been at meetings at the 10 Native Affairs Secretariat over the years and this was, I 11 believe, their largest boardroom. 12 The meeting was chaired by Ms. Julie Jai, 13 who I understood to be the Acting Director of Legal 14 Services at the time. There were quite a -- quite a 15 large number of -- of Ministry representatives that were 16 in attendance: Superintendent Fox and I and Ms. Hunt 17 from -- were from our -- our Ministry. 18 The meeting began in -- in the usual 19 fashion, there were Minutes and an Agenda, and at the 20 onset of the meeting, Superintendent Fox gave an update 21 as to the latest developments overnight at the Park. 22 There went on to be a fair bit of 23 discussion with respect to the injunctive process. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: There were discussions with respect
721 to the approach in terms of an approach that the OPP, 2 that Superintendent Fox advanced which was what I would 3 term -- what I will term as the standard OPP approach, 4 which is contain the situation, dialogue and negotiate 5 with -- with the protesters and just simply diffuse the 6 situation while, over here, supporting on a -- somewhat 7 of a parallel tract, a injunctive civil injunction to 8 provide some assistance to the OPP. 9 And that approach contrasted with 10 discussions around a quicker way of resolving the 11 occupation. 12 Q: And the -- can you recall with 13 respect to the approach that you indicated as the first 14 approach, negotiate and contain and the injunction who 15 had spoken about that approach? 16 A: Who spoke about the OPP approach? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Superintendent Fox. 19 Q: And you recall who spoke about the 20 other approach? 21 A: There were various individuals. I 22 recall a Ms. Deb Hutton from the Premier's office and a 23 Mr. Peter Allen from the Deputy Minister of Natural 24 Resources office were the two (2) most vocal. 25 Q: Individuals?
731 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you speak at the meeting? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: And what else do you recall before we 5 go to your notes of the meeting? 6 A: There was a significant amount of 7 time spent on the injunction process and the merits of a 8 -- I'm not sure of the exact or the proper term, but a 9 standard injunction versus an ex parte. 10 I had not heard of an ex parte injunction 11 before and I'm not sure how many others had, but the 12 representative from the Attorney General, Mr. Tim McCabe, 13 spent some time with the committee on that, on the 14 features of an ex parte injunction. 15 Q: And what did you understand at the 16 time was an ex parte injunction? 17 A: He informed us that an ex parte 18 injunction was an injunction of a more emergent nat -- 19 had a more emergent feature to it; that it was obtained 20 without notice. 21 Q: Without notice to the other side? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And anything else? 24 A: I recall there were a couple of 25 things that he -- that I had not been aware of. In -- in
741 his opinion he indicated that the use of an ex parte 2 injunction had to be -- had to be somewhat judiciously 3 applied; that it could, in his opinion, have the effect 4 of inflaming a situation, actually enraging those that 5 may be protesting, and it was around the notion of not 6 having received notification that the party was 7 proceeding. 8 So, his advice on that was that -- that 9 was something that needed to be considered with an ex 10 parte. 11 The other aspect, if I could while I think 12 of it, which I was not aware of, he spoke at -- to a 13 point around if an ex parte injunction was granted, that 14 it could have some impact on the police in terms of 15 service; that it might require -- it might put some 16 restrictions on them that a -- that a standard injunction 17 might not in terms of the -- how quickly they might have 18 to serve it, and that that was something the police 19 needed to be aware and I had -- I had not heard that 20 before. 21 Q: If an in -- an ex parte injunction 22 was granted, there was some time limit but that might 23 recall -- require the police to serve the -- the 24 injunction? 25 A: Yes, and that that could have an
751 impact on their operation. 2 Q: And the -- what, if anything, did you 3 recall of Ms. Hunt saying at the meeting? 4 A: I've recorded it. I recall she -- 5 she made a point of -- of reaffirming Minister Runciman's 6 view that she was speaking to a -- a principle, a long 7 standing principle that there's to be independence 8 between the government and policing operations and that 9 he was -- she was passing that information on to the 10 committee as a reminder. 11 Q: And do you recall what she said about 12 the principle of police independence? 13 A: Just that the Solicitor General 14 wasn't to intervene or to involve himself in the day to 15 day operations of the OPP. 16 17 Q: Okay. And you took some notes at the 18 meeting? 19 A: I did, sir. 20 Q: And if you could go to Tab 7 of the 21 book in front of you, there's a copy of what has been 22 marked Exhibit P-517. 23 And are those -- the third page -- excuse 24 me, the third -- fourth page in, there's some handwritten 25 notes, this is Inquiry Document 2003794, there are some
761 handwritten notes and are those your handwritten notes? 2 A: They are, sir. 3 Q: And can you tell us when the notes 4 were made? 5 A: They were made at the time. The time 6 of the meeting. 7 Q: During the meeting? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And the notes appear to start with a 10 note that Julie Jai was chairing then a note with respect 11 to agenda add-ons. 12 What -- did that refer to the agenda and 13 changing the agenda? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: Then review minutes. Is that minutes 16 of the meeting the day before? 17 A: I assume so, yes. 18 Q: And then there's a note, "Ron, 19 update." 20 And does that refer to the update by Ron 21 Fox? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And just above that there's a line: 24 "MNR stress, no negotiations, don't 25 want to use."
771 Can you tell us what that refers to? 2 A: That was a comment as I recall by Mr. 3 Allen and he was indicating that the -- he was indicating 4 that the position of the MNR was that they did not want 5 this issue to go into negotiations of anything 6 substantive. 7 Q: And the reference, "don't want to 8 use", do you know what that -- 9 A: Did not want negotiations to occur. 10 Q: And then there's an aspect -- there's 11 a report by Ron Fox as to what was happening on the 12 ground. And then on the next page there's a reference B. 13 Hutton: 14 "The Premier last night - OPP only, maybe 15 MNR." 16 And what does that note refer to? 17 A: What I believe it referred to was that 18 she, Ms. Hutton had indicated she had spoken to the 19 Premier the previous evening. And that his direction or 20 his message to her was that the OPP and to some degree the 21 MNR were to have the responsibility of resolving the 22 occupation of the Park. 23 Q: And the note: 24 "Out of the Park only - nothing else." 25 Do you recall who made that?
781 A: Yes. That was Ms. Hutton. 2 Q: And what did that refer to? 3 A: It was further direction from the 4 Premier that the -- the bottom line so to speak was that 5 the Park would be vacated. 6 Q: And that was the view that she 7 expressed on behalf of the Premier? 8 A: That's correct, yes. 9 Q: That was something that he wanted to 10 see happen? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then there's a reference: 13 "Peter, MNR view this now as an OPP 14 issue." 15 Who does that refer to? 16 A: That refers to Mr. Allen. 17 Q: And it simply refers to the fact that 18 the Ministry of Natural Resources viewed it as an OPP 19 issue? 20 A: As a policing issue, yes. 21 Q: And then the next entry is, "Ron", is 22 that Ron Fox? 23 A: It is. 24 Q: Can you tell us what Mr. Fox -- what 25 those notes refer to?
791 A: I believe that refers to an update 2 that he made that there -- the occupiers of the Park would 3 today the 6th, be asked to leave the Park by the OPP. 4 There's a comment there, "Injunction served if ready". 5 And he meant that when the injunction was - 6 - was available to the -- to the police that it would be 7 served. And then a comment, hope to determine demands. 8 And I recall there was -- there was some -- it wasn't well 9 made out what the demands of the protesters were. 10 Q: And then there's a line with respect 11 to Chief Bressette? 12 A: Yes, that was a comment by 13 Superintendent Fox. 14 Q: "If Chief Bressette offers help - 15 wanted?." 16 Was it a question? 17 A: It was a question. I believe he, the 18 Superintendent was also endeavouring to engage some 19 discussion on that notion. 20 Q: And was there some discussion? 21 A: There was a brief discussion on it, 22 yes. 23 Q: And what was the result of the 24 discussion? 25 A: I recall that the reaction of -- of
801 Ms. Hutton and I believe others that their reaction was 2 lukewarm if I can use that expression to the notion. 3 Q: And then there's a comment: 4 "MNR. Some weapon fired last night. 5 Media." What's ... 6 A: Yeah. There's a -- I think there's a 7 bit of a -- I think what I meant to record on that second 8 point is "media - heavy equipment movement.' It's 9 referred to a media report that there had been some 10 movement of heavy equipment in the Park the previous 11 evening. 12 Q: And the reference to some weapon fire 13 last night. 14 Do you recall what was that reference? 15 A: Yes. There was a -- there were two 16 (2) individuals from the MNR that were down either at 17 Ipperwash, at the scene or in London at the regional 18 office, I'm not sure which. And they were providing 19 various reports and updates throughout the meeting and -- 20 and this was a comment that came from one of those 21 individuals. 22 Q: They were the individuals who were on 23 the telephone? 24 A: From -- it was teleconferenced in, 25 yes.
811 Q: And they were from the Ministry of 2 Natural Resources? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then there's a line and then it 5 says, "Minister's directions" and what does that refer to? 6 A: This in a -- this portion of my notes 7 relates to an update by the Ministry of Natural Resources, 8 the Sol Gen and the Attorney General in terms of direction 9 from their ministers or some sense of direction from their 10 ministers they were updating the Committee on. The first 11 -- the first update was from the MNR. 12 Q: That the minister made immediate 13 contact and stayed with the script? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Then who's the reference: 16 "Not comfortable with spread of incident." 17 Do you recall who that refers to? 18 A: It refers to Minister Hodgson, his 19 concerns. 20 Q: And then a note: 21 "First the base - local municipalities 22 upset." 23 Who does that refer to? 24 A: Again these -- this comment is from 25 Minister Hodgson or a concern of Minister Hodgson that
821 there had been an occupation of Camp Ipperwash and now 2 there had been an occupation of the Provincial Park and 3 that the local municipalities in the area were -- were 4 concerned. 5 Q: And do you recall who reported these 6 concerns on behalf of Mr. Hodgson to the Committee? 7 A: Not specifically, no. There were -- 8 no, I don't. 9 Q: It would have -- was it one of the MNR 10 representatives on the Committee? 11 A: I expect it was either Mr. Jeff Bangs 12 who was the minister's executive assistant or Mr. Peter 13 Allen who was the deputy minister's executive assistant. 14 Q: Then the next note: 15 "Sol Gen should take lead - OPP, now that 16 charges laid should any ministers be 17 involved." 18 What do those two (2) lines refer to? Was 19 it again from the MNR? 20 A: Yes. That's from the MNR and the view 21 that it's become -- it's now become a policing matter in 22 their view. And the second point, 23 "now that charges laid, should any 24 ministers be involved." 25 I believe that was with respect to there's
831 now charges that will be before the courts at some point 2 and should the ministers be involved and commenting on -- 3 on the matter. 4 Q: And then there's a line Kathryn? 5 A: Yes. Kathryn Hunt. 6 Q: "Kathryn Hunt. MNR/Sol Gen briefing." 7 And at that -- what does refer to? 8 A: I'm not sure what refers to, sir? 9 Q: And then at the top of the next page: 10 "Minister last night, Runciman - long 11 standing protocol - arms length 12 [something] police services want to 13 maintain it." 14 A: With police services - want to 15 maintain. 16 Q: With police services? 17 A: Yes. And that was the comment that I 18 referred to earlier that -- that Ms. Hunt made. 19 Q: Okay. And then there's a note: 20 "Injunction, discussion, J. Jai - should 21 move on injunction asap - the Minister." 22 And what's that refer to? 23 A: This was an update from Julie Jai on 24 behalf of the -- on behalf of the Attorney General, albeit 25 she -- she -- she -- her current position at the time was
841 with Native Affairs. 2 I believe, in the reporting scheme of 3 things that she had some reporting relationship up through 4 to the Deputy Attorney General. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And it indicates, "Should move on 7 injunction as soon as possible, Minister." So, the 8 direction coming down was that an injunction ought to be 9 proceeded with as soon as possible. 10 Q: And there's a line underneath 11 injunction; does that have any significance? 12 A: I'm not sure I see what you're 13 referring to there, sir? 14 Q: Okay. Then there's a line, "D. 15 Hutton?" 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: "Re: Releases - Agree in principle, 18 local people want to be seen as 19 [acting] -- actioning." 20 And what's that refer to? 21 A: The first of the comment refers to 22 discussion that had occurred earlier in the meeting around 23 media releases, local releases from the OPP and the MNR at 24 the site, at the scene, and she's indicating that she 25 agrees in principle, that -- with local people, "want to
851 be seen as actioning," that referred to her comment, I 2 believe, related to the Government wanted to be seen as 3 being active on this -- on this issue. 4 Q: Okay. And then: 5 "Seeking injunction - Message - OPP 6 timing after that." 7 I think it's on Exhibit -- 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And what's that refer to? 10 A: I -- I see that I have that linked in 11 my notes to Ms. Jai's comments earlier, and what that 12 referred to is that an injunction will be sought, that's 13 the message, and that it would be up to the OPP in terms 14 of how the service would be affected. 15 So "OPP timing after that," is the comment. 16 Q: And then there's a note: 17 "Not likely to get ex-parte injunction 18 with a small,[it looks like] "W/O 19 notice." 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Is that what it says? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And the -- then on a line underneath 24 it, "Urgency?" And do you recall the discussion 25 surrounding --this aspect of the discussion surrounding
861 the ex-parte injunction? 2 A: Yes, I referred to that earlier. This 3 was the part of the meeting where Mr. McCabe was speaking 4 about the attributes of the injunctive approach. 5 Q: And: 6 "Notice to occupiers that we are seeking 7 - three (3) days," 8 Indicated that normally it was three (3) 9 days notice? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: Is that what that refers to? 12 A: That's what I recall. 13 Q: "Local Judge checking now [something] 14 availability." 15 What's that refer to? 16 A: There were efforts being made, as I 17 recall, to determine how quickly or -- or the availability 18 of a Judge in the Sarnia area. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And to hear the Application, or to 21 hear the Motion. 22 Q: And then: 23 "Also - Provincial area of the 24 responsibility - Title - Affidavit being 25 prepared now - Registry Office - Best
871 case - Friday." 2 What's that refer to? 3 A: The first point I'm -- I'm not sure 4 what it refers to, "Provincial area of responsibility," I 5 -- I can't interpret that. 6 There were efforts being made with respect 7 to the title of the Park and -- and the Registry Office 8 was being canvassed for that information. "Affidavit 9 being prepared now," related to some supporting, I believe 10 it was affidavits, of MNR staff and OPP staff, to support 11 the Application. 12 And "Best case - Friday," was Mr. McCabe's 13 opinion that in -- in his opinion the best case would be 14 that this would be heard on Friday. 15 Q: Okay. Then there's a reference: 16 "PMO - Longer they occupy - Major crisis 17 - What about Criminal Code." 18 What's that refer to? 19 A: It should refer -- it -- it should 20 state PO, I'm not sure why I have PMO there, the Prime 21 Minister's Office. It was Ms. Hutton indicating a view 22 that, or a concern that the longer the occupiers were in 23 the Park that we could have a major crisis, and could the 24 Criminal Code, as a -- as an approach to resolve the 25 matter be considered.
881 Q: Okay. And was there a discussion 2 about the Criminal Code? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Do you recall a discussion led by Mr. 5 Hutchinson with respect to the Criminal Code, and a 6 discussion about other Provincial statutes? 7 A: I don't recall -- I don't recall Mr. 8 Hutchinson speaking. I don't recall him, but with respect 9 to the approach that I spoke to you about earlier -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- the approach that was favoured by 12 some was a quicker approach that would involve the use of 13 the Criminal Code, and there were three (3) Provincial 14 statutes that were referenced, those being Public Lands 15 Act, Provincial Parks Act, and Trespass of Property Act, 16 and the reference was to the various arrest provisions in 17 each of those statutes. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: As a quicker way of resolving the 20 matter. 21 Q: Done quicker than through the 22 injunction? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Then at the top of the next page: 25 "Ron, Considerations."
891 And what does that refer to? 2 A: This is Superintendent Fox, he spoke 3 for a moment or two (2) and outlined his position, 4 reiterating again that there are long term and short term 5 considerations here, and it's in a closed Provincial Park, 6 it's a property dispute, relatively minor in his view, in 7 terms of trespass and mischief. And there's a comment 8 that indicates: 9 "Appreciate Premier's concern, but 10 should we rush in." 11 I believe that was more of a rhetorical 12 question on his part, but essentially what he was 13 advocating was that we just take this very cautiously, in 14 a measured fashion, and contain dialogue and negotiate and 15 diffuse the situation, and at the same time give some time 16 for an injunction to be granted to assist, if need be. 17 Q: And then there's a heading, 18 Discussion, and some points under that. And what does 19 that section of your notes refer to? 20 A: This related -- this -- this is a roll 21 up of a discussion that occurred over several minutes, the 22 first point opposing views, there were -- it was a fair 23 bit of opposition to what Superintendent Fox had 24 indicated. 25 Q: Then the next bullet:
901 "Urgency civil matter, past approaches." 2 A: Yes. There was -- there was a 3 discussion around is this situation urgent to the point 4 where it requires us to do something precipitous, and then 5 the point 'civil matter'. It was a civil matter, it was a 6 property dispute. 7 And 'past approaches' I believe referred 8 to the approach which had been successful in the past. 9 The one (1) that the OPP had used over the years, which 10 was when you got to a situation where it wasn't easily 11 determined by the Police as to the title or property in 12 question, then you would support the civil remedy to that. 13 Q: Okay. Then -- and then the next 14 bullet: 15 "This dispute, do we want it in Criminal 16 Court." 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: What's that refer? 19 A: I'm not -- not entirely clear on what 20 that means. 21 Q: Okay. Then the next bullet: 22 "Community-business, cottagers 23 complaining." 24 A: Yes, this had been referenced earlier. 25 There was concern from the local Municipalities, the
911 Municipal Government, but also business owners and 2 cottagers in the area. 3 Q: And then the next bullet: 4 "Road blockaded to beach. MNR assisted 5 OPP concern." 6 What's that refer? 7 A: I believe that refers to the MNR had 8 assisted the OPP in removing some picnic tables from a 9 table -- or from a roadway earlier in the day. 10 Q: Okay. And then: 11 "Next steps, injunction ASAP-Friday at 12 best case" 13 And then above it: 14 "Interlocutory OPP to continue to 15 monitor and take appropriate action." 16 Then bullet: 17 "Sheriff/OPP in force order." 18 What's that refer to? 19 A: I believe this was a summary that Ms. 20 Jai was conducting at this point in the meeting that it 21 was a consensus that an injunction would be proceeded with 22 a -- an injunction in the standard fashion with notice and 23 that Friday was likely the best case scenario for 24 obtaining the injunction. 25 And that in the meantime the OPP would
921 continue to contain the situation and assess it, take 2 whatever appropriate action may be necessary and that once 3 an order was obtained that in the normal course the 4 sheriff and the OPP would affect service. 5 Q: Okay. And then the top of the last 6 page of these notes there's a reference: 7 "Discussion re. media operational versus 8 government line." 9 What's that refer to? Do you recall? 10 A: I believe it refers to -- there was a 11 discussion around media or press releases that were going 12 to happen relative to the -- to the operation -- to the -- 13 to the onsite activities of the police versus, if I can 14 use the term, "messaging" from government that would occur 15 out of Toronto. 16 Q: Okay. Then: 17 "List of people in community to speak 18 to and calm down." 19 What does that refer to? 20 A: It was a discussion around contacting 21 or identifying and then contacting some influential 22 community leaders to endeavour to assist in lowering the 23 concerns of the local populace. 24 Q: "And discussion re. removal of 25 trespass."
931 What's that refer to? 2 A: This was a comment by Ms. Hutton 3 regarding could the Trespass to Property Act be considered 4 as an approach? 5 Q: Okay. And then there's a line -- does 6 the line have any significance? 7 A: I believe it signifies that the 8 meeting is about to come to an end and there's -- there 9 are three (3) points below that or three (3) points that 10 speak to the decision points reached in the meeting. 11 Q: And what were the decision points 12 reached in the meeting? 13 A: That we would be seeking an 14 injunction, the OPP had been asked to remove the 15 trespassers and public safety is paramount. 16 Q: And the -- seeking -- how did the 17 seeking an -- the point seeking injunction and OPP asked 18 to remove trespassers, how do they relate if at all? 19 A: My understanding was that the OPP 20 would not be proceeding to remove the occupiers of the 21 Park without an injunction. 22 Q: Okay. And that was your understanding 23 of the consensus of the meeting? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the reference to, "public safety
941 paramount," do you recall what that refers to? 2 A: It was a reference to the fact that it 3 was considered a -- that -- there -- there was some -- 4 that the safety of the public had to be paramount in -- in 5 -- in the minds of those that were responding to the -- to 6 the matter. 7 Q: Okay. And, 8 "Political staff focal points -- to 9 Julie Jai." 10 What's that refer to? 11 A: I'm not sure, sure. 12 Q: Okay. And at the meeting do you 13 recall Ron Fox leaving the meeting at some point? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And why did he leave the meeting? 16 A: He left the meeting to call then- 17 Inspector John Carson with respect to the comment about 18 automatic weapon fire that had come into the meeting. 19 Q: And did he come back and report to the 20 meeting? 21 A: He came back, I don't -- I don't 22 recall if he reported. 23 Q: And do you know if he had spoken to 24 Mr. -- Inspector Carson at the time he came back into the 25 meeting?
951 A: I don't recall if he indicated that he 2 had connected with him, no. 3 Q: And is it fair to say that Inspector 4 Fox and Ms. Hutton had a difference in opinion as to how 5 the matter should be dealt with? 6 A: Yes, that's fair. 7 Q: And is there anything else you can 8 tell us about their difference of opinion that you haven't 9 told us about already? 10 A: It was a fairly robust difference of 11 opinion and the discussions were quite -- I would -- I 12 would describe them as robust. They vigorously disagreed 13 with each other in terms of the approach. 14 Q: And but at the end of the day, the 15 consensus was to seek an injunction? 16 A: I might qualify an earlier response I 17 made to you. I believe there was a consensus among those 18 that favoured that approach. I'm less certain that there 19 was a -- there was an agreement those that opposed that 20 approach or were not in favour of the time lines of that 21 approach. 22 Q: And -- well, what was your 23 understanding as to what was going to happen as a result 24 of the meeting? 25 A: My understanding was that the standard
961 approach that was advocated which was the OPP would have 2 carriage of the matter and in the meantime a civil 3 injunction in the normal fashion would be obtained. 4 Q: Did -- do you recall Ms. Hutton saying 5 at the meeting that the Premier wanted to, 6 "get the fucking Indians out of the 7 Park" 8 or words to that effect? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: Do you recall Ms. Hutton indicating to 11 the meeting that -- in addition to the statement, to use 12 guns if necessary? 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: Was there any discussion about the use 15 of guns or force by the Ontario Provincial Police at the 16 meeting? 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: Was the use of force implied in any of 19 the discussions that you heard at the meeting? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: And is there anything else that you 22 can recall that took place at the meeting? 23 A: I'm sure there may be, but not at this 24 moment. 25 Q: And was there any discussion
971 concerning the option of selecting a negotiator or a third 2 party neutral to facilitate -- facilitate discussions? 3 A: I don't recall a discussion about 4 that, no. 5 Q: And that was an option under the 6 guidelines? 7 A: It was an option. I -- I -- my 8 thought on that is that there wasn't a great deal of 9 information coming from those that were on the scene. And 10 there was to be a meeting later in the -- in the day. 11 Q: Between the OPP and the people on the 12 ground? 13 A: That's correct. And I -- I believe 14 the expectation was at the Committee that there would be 15 additional information coming back to us from that 16 meeting. 17 Q: As to what the demands of the 18 occupiers were? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Now after you -- at the end of the 21 Interministerial Committee meeting what did you do next? 22 A: Superintendent Fox and I left the -- 23 the 595 Bay offices and proceeded to the street at which 24 time he was paged. A page came to him from the Deputy 25 Solicitor General's office.
981 Q: And what did you do as a result of his 2 receiving the page? 3 A: We attended to Queen's Park to a 4 meeting that was convened in the Premier's office. 5 Q: And between the Interministerial 6 Committee meeting and attending at Queen's Park, did you 7 attend a meeting at the Solicitor General's office at 8 which Mr. Hodgson was in attendance? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: And was there such a meeting that you 11 attended where Mr. Hodgson was in attendance after the 12 meeting in the dining room? 13 A: There were meetings with Mr. Hodgson 14 and the various ministers in the ensuing days. 15 Q: After? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: There was no meeting on September the 18 6th? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. So you're at the -- you leave 21 the Interministerial Committee meeting, do you recall what 22 time that was? 23 A: I believe it was just before twelve 24 o'clock. 25 Q: The minutes indicate that the meeting
991 -- and the minutes are part of Exhibit P-509. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Minutes indicate that the meeting and 6 the minutes are part of Exhibit P-509, Inquiry Document 7 1012288, indicate that the meeting lasted from 9:30 to 8 11:45? Is that approximately -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: That does jive with your 11 recollection? 12 A: It does, yes. 13 Q: So you're then asked to attend the 14 meeting at the dining room or Mr. Fox's -- Superintendent 15 -- Inspector Fox is asked to attend. Did he ask you to 16 attend with him? 17 A: Yes, we were -- we were together. 18 Q: And so what did you do? You go to -- 19 went to Queen's Park? 20 A: We arrived at Queen's Park, we were 21 met by one of the OPP security officers that were 22 assigned to the -- to the facility. We -- I recall 23 Superintendent Fox providing him with the room number 24 that we were to meet in and he asked us if we were 25 certain about that because the -- the room number was a -
1001 - a office in the Premier's suite. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: And we indicated that that was the 4 number we had been given, and he proceeded to take us to 5 that area of the villa. 6 Q: And once you got the -- you -- you 7 attended at a suite of offices? 8 A: Yes, we went to the reception area of 9 the Premier's suite. 10 Q: Then what happened? 11 A: We were met by an individual who I 12 believe was David Lindsay (phonetic), who I had 13 understood to be the Premier's principal secretary and he 14 took us down a hallway to a meeting that was in progress 15 in a -- in a -- what I had thought was described as 16 anteroom, as opposed to a dining room. 17 Q: And how big was this room? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I'm not sure I know how to answer 22 that. I'm not sure. It wasn't -- it was a large -- 23 similar to a large boardroom. 24 Q: Have a table in it? 25 A: Yes.
1011 Q: Chairs around the outside? 2 A: It did. 3 Q: And when you entered the meeting, 4 what happened? 5 A: We were introduced. Superintendent 6 Fox was introduced as we walked into the room by Mr. 7 Lindsay. 8 Q: And what do you recall Mr. Lindsay 9 saying? 10 A: He said, Inspector Fox. I wasn't 11 introduced and we came into the room and walked to the 12 far left corner and occupied two (2) chairs in that 13 corner. 14 Q: And who else was in the room when you 15 arrived? 16 A: There were quite a number of 17 individuals. Directly in front of us as we stepped into 18 the room was Premier Harris. 19 Q: Yes. Was he at the table? 20 A: He was at the table, yes. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: There were three (3) ministers, our 23 minister, Minister Runciman, the Solicitor General; 24 Minister Harnick, the Attorney General and Minister 25 Hodgson, the Minister of Natural Resources.
1021 Q: Yes. 2 A: And two (2) deputy ministers, our 3 deputy minister, Elaine Todres, and Larry Taman, who was 4 the deputy Attorney General. 5 Q: And was Ms. Hunt there, do you 6 recall? Ms. Hunt, the -- 7 A: Yes. I recall Ms. Hunt, Ms. Hutton, 8 Mr. Bangs, Mr. Moran who was minister Harnick's EA on the 9 Attorney General side of things, Inspector Barb Taylor 10 who was assigned to the Deputy Minister's office as an 11 advisor. 12 Q: And do you recall if -- did you know 13 Mr. Ron Vrancart, the deputy minister of the Ministry of 14 Natural Resources? 15 A: I hadn't met him, but he attended a 16 subsequent meeting that -- 17 Q: And was he at the meeting, do you 18 recall? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: Okay. And was Ms. Hutton there? I - 21 - did you refer to her? 22 A: Yes, she was. 23 Q: And when you arrived, did it appear 24 that the meeting was already underway? 25 A: Yes.
1031 Q: And what happened after you arrived, 2 you and Mr. Fox went and sat down, what happened? 3 A: Mr. Taman, the deputy Attorney 4 General, was speaking to the Premier and he appeared to 5 be, in my mind, educating the Premier about the 6 differences between the two (2) injunctions; the standard 7 injunction and ex parte. 8 He spoke to the Premier about the OPP 9 approach in the past and how that had been a successful 10 approach when used in conjunction with an injunction, 11 and -- 12 Q: And what did he say about that 13 approach, if anything, that you can recall? 14 A: Just that it -- just that it was very 15 complimentary, and that it had been successful on a 16 number of occasions. 17 Q: And did he indicate, in addition to 18 the injunction, what that approach included; the OPP 19 approach? 20 A: Dialoguing and negotiating with -- 21 with the First Nations. 22 Q: Okay. And what else do you recall? 23 A: I recall the Premier appeared to be 24 listening attentively. He didn't interrupt Mr. Taman, he 25 sat there quietly and listened.
1041 Q: Yes? 2 A: And Deputy Minister Todres began to 3 speak and I can't recall exactly what she was speaking 4 to, but she asked the Premier if it would be appropriate 5 at this time for Inspector Fox to provide an update in 6 terms of the latest policing information. 7 Q: And do you recall Ms. Todres talking 8 to the meeting about the relationship between the 9 government and the OPP, while you were there? 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: Okay. So what then happened; Ms. 12 Todres began to speak? 13 A: Yes, and she introduced Inspector Fox 14 and Superintendent Fox rose and gave a very brief 15 overview of his latest information on what was 16 transpiring at Ipperwash. 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: It was similar to his update from the 19 preceding meeting at the Interministerial Committee. 20 Q: And what, if anything, did the 21 Premier say with respect to Mr. Fox's report or the OPP 22 approach to this incident? 23 A: I don't recall that he -- he spoke 24 directly to the -- to -- certainly to Superintendent Fox 25 or I in terms of -- it was at that point that he began to
1051 speak, but he was speaking again to Deputy Minister 2 Taman. 3 Q: And what did Mr. Harris say to Mr. 4 Taman that you can recall? 5 A: I general terms he seemed -- I'll -- 6 I'll -- I will describe it as he seemed perplexed in 7 terms of the time lines for resolving the matter and he 8 seemed perplexed by that and -- and he and the Deputy 9 Minister spoke back and forth for a couple of minutes. 10 Q: About -- when you say, "the time 11 lines" what are you referring to, the time line for an 12 injunction? 13 A: That was part of it. I think it was 14 more to why could it not be dealt with in a quicker 15 fashion? So it was very similar to what we had earlier 16 at the Interministerial Committee Meeting in terms of he 17 appeared to be indicating that he favoured a quicker 18 response to this than one that was going to take Friday 19 at best case which was the opinion of Mr. McCabe earlier. 20 Q: And did the Premier in his 21 discussions with Mr. Taman criticize the OPP that you 22 recall? 23 A: I don't know that I will describe it 24 as -- as criticism. He did make reference to something 25 post -- post-event and it was along the lines of I
1061 suppose this story or this information will come out some 2 day and at that time the OPP will have to account for 3 their actions, or words to that affect. 4 Q: And what actions -- did you have any 5 understanding of what actions he was referring to? 6 A: I believe he was referring to -- I 7 believe he was referring to the events of the 4th of 8 September when the Park was first occupied. 9 Q: Okay. And the -- do you recall the 10 Premier saying anything else? 11 A: I -- he did speak to Deputy Taman. I 12 recall Deputy Taman responding. It appeared to be 13 somewhat of a caution. I can describe that if you like. 14 Q: And the -- in the room can you tell 15 us who was at the table? There was the Premier at the 16 head of the table, the Ministers, where were they 17 sitting? 18 A: As I recall the Premier was just to 19 the left of the head of the table. 20 Q: Left of the head of the table. 21 A: At the head of the table I believe 22 was Minister Runciman. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And Ms. Hutton and I believe Minister 25 Harnick was to the Premier's left as was Minister Hodgson
1071 and the two (2) deputy ministers were directly across the 2 table from the Premier. 3 Q: Okay. And you and -- where were the 4 political aides? Were they at the table or around it? 5 A: They were around the table, yes. 6 Q: Around the table? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And now, I understand that you had 9 difficulty hearing the Premier? 10 A: I did, sir. 11 Q: And why was that? 12 A: For a couple of reasons: We were 13 located in the far corner; the Premier had his back to us 14 and -- and so was projecting towards Deputy Taman, and 15 when he did speak, he spoke in a low conversational tone 16 so he was difficult to hear. 17 I was seated directly next to a -- a 18 window air conditioning unit, which wasn't helpful; it 19 didn't allow me to hear all of the conversation. 20 Q: And at some point did the Premier 21 leave the meeting? 22 A: He did, yes. 23 Q: And do you recall if the Premier said 24 anything as he was leaving the meeting? 25 A: He said that, I will leave you to
1081 your discussions and I expect you'll come to the right 2 conclusion, words to that effect. 3 Q: Words to that effect, I know that 4 you'll come to the right conclusion? 5 A: Yes, sir. Yes. 6 Q: Something like that? Do you recall 7 anything else that the Premier said at that meeting? 8 A: He made a reference to the Holocaust. 9 Q: And what was that reference? 10 A: It's difficult to articulate, it 11 appeared to be in the context of an analogy. He 12 indicated that this was a test, that they were a new 13 Government, and he said, This is how these things get 14 started, and then he referenced the Holocaust. 15 Q: Anything else? 16 A: Not that I recall, no. 17 Q: And did any of the other Ministers 18 speak while the Premier was in the -- was in attendance 19 at the meeting when -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: -- you were there? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: And after the Premier left, how long 24 did the meeting go on? 25 A: We were there for -- Superintendent
1091 Fox and I were in attendance for approximately another 2 five (5) minutes or so, I would say. We were excused 3 from the meeting, and the meeting appeared to be 4 continuing after we left. 5 Q: After you left. And what happened 6 after the Premier left? 7 A: Minister. 8 Q: While you were there? 9 A: Yes. Minister Hodgson began to speak 10 to Deputy Minister Taman. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: And at a point, Deputy Todres 13 gestured to Superintendent Fox and I to join her at the 14 table. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: So we did. And we were now seated 17 next to Deputy Todres and we were directly across the 18 table from Minister Hodgson. 19 Q: And what, if anything, did Mr. 20 Hodgson say? 21 A: He said several things. He began to 22 speak to Superintendent Fox, he was -- he gave the 23 appearance that he was quite angry. He indicated that 24 his officials, meaning him and our officials, had been 25 assured by the OPP that the Park -- Park's occupation
1101 could be prevented, and now we know that's not the case. 2 He indicated he was the property owner, 3 that it was his Park and that he wanted it back. 4 And there was a comment directed to 5 Superintendent Fox that he was not in a position to 6 direct the police, so don't presume that you can proffer 7 political advice. 8 Q: And did -- did Mr. Fox have a 9 discussion with Mr. Hodgson that prompted this comment? 10 A: Yes. Yes. Those are the comments 11 that I remember from the Minister, but it occurred over 12 two (2) or three (3) minutes. 13 Q: And there was a discussion between 14 Mr. Hodgson and Mr. Fox while this was going on and these 15 comments were made by Mr. Hodgson during this discussion? 16 A: That's correct, yes. 17 Q: And do you recall what Mr. Fox said 18 to Mr. Hodgson? 19 A: One comment I recall, he -- he said 20 to the Minister that in response to his concern about the 21 Park -- Park's occupation being prevented, that short of 22 putting OPP officers shoulder to shoulder around the Park 23 perimeter, that that may not even -- that may not have 24 even have prevented the occupation of the Park. 25 Q: Okay.
1111 A: That was one comment I recall. 2 Q: Okay. Any other comments that you 3 recall made by Mr. Fox? 4 A: Not specifically, no. 5 Q: And the -- was there -- did the 6 Minister speak about the title to the Park? 7 A: In a general way, yes. It was clear 8 that he viewed the Park as a Provincial Park, an MNR 9 Park, and he was expressing what I believe to be some 10 frustration that this was taking a while to get resolved. 11 Q: Okay. And while you were there after 12 the Premier left, did anyone else speak besides Ron Fox 13 and Mr. Hodgson? 14 A: Yes, Deputy Taman began to dialogue 15 with the Minister and it was shortly after that that we 16 were excused. 17 Q: And what do you recall of the 18 dialogue between Mr. Taman and the Minister, Mr. Hodgson? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: Don't recall. And what did you do 21 after you left the meeting? 22 A: We returned to our offices on Bloor 23 Street. 24 Q: And what if anything, did you do with 25 respect to Ipperwash or Ipperwash related matters for the
1121 balance of September the 6th? 2 A: The only recollection I have is -- is 3 taking a telephone call from Mr. McCabe -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- who was calling to speak to 6 Superintendent Fox, and the Superintendent was occupied 7 on the telephone, and so I spoke to Mr. McCabe, and I 8 recall it was around directions to Sarnia, and/or 9 possible air flights to -- to Sarnia, and then I 10 transferred him over to Superintendent Fox. 11 Q: And when did you learn about the 12 death of Dudley George? 13 A: I learned about it the next morning. 14 Q: And how did you learn? 15 A: I had attended at General 16 Headquarters, it was quite early in the morning, and the 17 staff that were there informed me that there had been a 18 shooting and a death. 19 Q: And the General headquarters was in 20 Orillia, you were back in your Orillia office? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And did -- I understand that Mr. Fox, 23 Inspector Fox, tried to contact you, but your -- during 24 the night, but your answering machine was not working 25 properly?
1131 A: I'm loathe to blame it on the 2 answering machine, but I was having some difficulty 3 getting the -- getting the message, yes. 4 Q: And when you -- on September 7th what 5 did you do? 6 A: I attended to Toronto, and there are 7 -- I attended a number of meetings, I believe three (3) 8 meetings over the course of the day, related to 9 Ipperwash. 10 Q: And after September the 7th, did you 11 -- what role did you play with respect to Ipperwash? 12 A: I continued to be involved through 13 September, but increasingly less so as -- as the fall 14 went on. Superintendent Fox had that responsibility and 15 essentially the day to day runnings of the office he 16 turned over to me. 17 Q: And so you looked after the -- you 18 focussed on the Policing Agreements with the First 19 Nations, and he -- and had little involvement in 20 Ipperwash; is that fair? 21 A: That's correct, yes. 22 Q: And the -- on September 7th we've -- 23 as part of Exhibit P-517, there are a number of your 24 notes for that day. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And just for the
1141 purposes of My Friends, Commissioner, Exhibit P-517, one 2 (1) of the pages is in the wrong order. The page that 3 was in the group starting with September 7th on it, the 4 fourth page in the Inquiry Document 2003794, should be 5 page number 2, and the other pages then flow. 6 So, that page 1 is, if you look at the 7 bottom of the page is 36279, followed by 36282, then 8 followed by 36280, 36281, 36283, 36284, and then 36285. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And these notes refer to three (3) 12 meetings that you attended on September 7th. 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And they related to the -- the issues 15 at Ipperwash? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And the first one, Ipperwash 18 contentious issues meeting was in the morning as I 19 understand it? 20 A: It was, sir. 21 Q: And then there was a second meeting 22 at 3:30 in the afternoon, 15:30? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And then a third meeting at 17:30 or 25 5:30?
1151 A: Yes, sir. And that meeting was a 2 meeting of a larger group than the Interministerial 3 meetings previous. 4 Q: And the meeting at 5:30 involved who? 5 A: It involved the ministers. 6 Q: And the ministers were Mr. Runciman? 7 A: Mr. Harnick and Mr. Hodgson. 8 Q: And what went on at this meeting that 9 you can recall? 10 A: This was a -- there was -- there was 11 a good deal of information that was imparted to the 12 Committee. Superintendent Fox gave an update. I recall 13 the Chief Coroner, Dr. Jim Young was in attendance. And 14 he was speaking to some matters that were occurring in 15 London at the hospital. 16 Beyond that without referring to my notes, 17 I -- I don't recall. 18 Q: If you would just take a moment and 19 refer to your notes which are part of Exhibit P-517. 20 A: I see there's an update from Deputy 21 Taman re -- regarding the -- the injunction process. 22 "Order stayed until Monday noon." 23 Q: Then there's a note: 24 "Discussion re service of documents." 25 A: Yes. I believe that was Deputy Taman
1161 again. 2 Q: And by this time it was understood 3 that one of the provisions in the order was to drop the 4 material from a helicopter, is that correct? 5 A: I believe so, yes. 6 Q: And was there a concern about that 7 provision of the order? 8 A: Yes, there was. 9 Q: And what was the concern? 10 A: Just generally as to effecting 11 service in that manner. 12 Q: And what was the concern, of safety? 13 A: Safety was one. The helicopter and 14 the proximity it would have to the Park. I recall there 15 was -- there was a discussion around just the notion of 16 dropping documents from the air to the protesters and 17 that that might not be well received. 18 Q: And I understand as well that you 19 attended a meeting on September 8th and September 11th 20 with respect to these issues and made some notes that 21 we've provided to My Friends, Commissioner. We just 22 received these on Friday. 23 And those are my questions of this 24 witness. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you,
1171 Mr. Millar. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So, perhaps before we 3 break for lunch we could canvas the parties. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does anybody 5 have any questions for the Inspector? 6 Mr. Downard? Well, I might as well go 7 through them in order. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'll just -- if they - 9 - My Friends could just indicate how much time and then 10 I'll make a note. Mr. Downard? 11 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Half an hour to an 12 hour or something, Mr. Commissioner. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And that -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 15 Horvat...? 16 MS. JACQUELINE HORVAT: Ten minutes. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ten minutes on behalf 18 of Mr. Harnick. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 20 Runciman. I don't see counsel here for Mr. Runciman. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No one's here for Mr. 22 Runciman. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or Mr. 24 Hodgson. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh yes there is for
1181 Mr. Runciman. 2 MS. ERIN TULLY: I believe for Mr. 3 Hodgson. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Hodgson, excuse me. 5 MS. ERIN TULLY: Five (5) to ten (10) 6 minutes. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Five (5) to ten (10) 8 minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 10 Sulman...? 11 MR. DOUG SULMAN: Thank you, sir. Five 12 (5) to ten (10) minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 14 Perschy...? 15 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: An hour, maybe less. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Perschy, an hour 17 maybe less. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 19 Myrka...? 20 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Ten (10) minutes, Mr. 21 Commissioner. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Myrka had ten (10) 23 minutes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 25 McGilp...?
1191 MR. IAN MCGILP: Two (2) minutes. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: McGilp's two (2) 3 minutes. I'm repeating it for the transcript. It would 4 then be -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just looking 6 around to see who else is up. Yes, Mr. Alexander...? 7 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, 8 for your information, the Estate and ALST will be 9 switching positions for this witness. I canvassed this 10 with Aboriginal counsel and there's no objection to this 11 so I wanted to let you know that for your information. 12 The second thing is -- is given our 13 discussions, we anticipate our cross-examination areas 14 will be covered by other counsel. Particularly counsel 15 for AST and -- ALST and we do not anticipate questions at 16 this time. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long 18 does ALST expect to be? 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Approximately an 20 hour and a half, Mr. Commissioner, and the outside is two 21 (2) hours and hopefully I'll pare it down to an hour. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 23 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Half an hour to 24 forty-five (45) minutes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir?
1201 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Twenty-five (25) 2 minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 4 George...? 5 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: Ten (10) to fifteen 6 (15) minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 8 Horton...? 9 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Twenty (20) minutes 10 to half an hour. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 We'll break now for lunch and come back in 13 an hour an fifteen (15) minutes. 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 15 adjourned until 2:20. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 1:06 p.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 2:20 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed, please be seated. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 23 we call in My Friends there was a couple of areas that I 24 needed to cover that I neglected to cover before lunch. 25
1211 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And the first issue was Mr. Patrick, 3 Inspector Patrick, you responded to an undertaking during 4 the course of the litigation and the undertaking was -- 5 the question asked was: What did the Premier say at that 6 meeting if anything and that's referring to the meeting 7 at the Queen's Park and please provide your best 8 recollection of what he said in as much detail as 9 possible. 10 And the undertaking is recorded, it's 11 Inquiry Document 300412 as, "I don't recall." 12 And do you recall being asked that 13 question in the form of a question put to you by a 14 solicitor in the George and Harris litigation and 15 responding, "I don't recall?" 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And you've told us today a number of 18 things that you recalled of the meeting at Queen's Park 19 and can you tell us why you responded as you did when you 20 responded to the undertaking? 21 A: Yes, sir. In 2003 I had not turned 22 my mind to the events at Ipperwash in quite a number of 23 years. I did not have the recall certainly that I -- that 24 I have today. 25 This past spring I was informed that I
1221 would be testifying and I have focussed my memory and my 2 efforts on recalling as best I could the events at that 3 time with the assistance of Counsel and numerous 4 interview with both my Counsel and Commission Counsel. 5 At the time that I was asked the question 6 I did recall one (1) reference and it was to the term, 7 'holocaust'. I could not explain the relevance of that 8 term so I chose not to convey that in my response. I'm 9 not sure that I can convey the relevance of it today, but 10 I simply could not place it in the context of Ipperwash 11 and I chose not to reveal it. 12 Q: And at the time did you review any 13 notes or any documents when you responded to the 14 undertaking? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And since then have you? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And now, one (1) of the things that 19 we've asked many of the witnesses, do they have any 20 recommendations they would like to make to the 21 Commissioner for him to consider when preparing his 22 report. 23 And lastly if there's anything else you 24 wish to add to what you've said. And so I'm going to 25 give you the opportunity to make any recommendations and
1231 ask you to tell us if there's anything else you would 2 like to add. 3 A: No, Your Honour, I -- I don't have 4 anything to add. I -- I'm aware of the comments of 5 Superintendent Fox and I concur with those and I know 6 that Commissioner Boniface will be appearing at a future 7 date and so no, I have nothing to add. 8 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions, 9 sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. 12 I'll now call on -- I think Mr. Downard is 13 first up. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 18 Q: Sir, my name is Peter Downard and I 19 appear for the former Ontario Premier, Mike Harris, and I 20 just have a few questions for you about your evidence. 21 Now, in your evidence, when you were 22 describing, and I -- I think I have this right, when you 23 were describing the reaction of Ms. Debbie Hutton to the 24 subject of whether the help of Chief Bressette would be 25 wanted if it was offered, you said that Ms. Hutton's
1241 reaction to that notion, in the September 6th 2 Interministerial Committee Meeting, was lukewarm; have I 3 got that right? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: Now, we've heard and we've -- we've 6 seen notes of Julie Jai. And you know Julie Jai, 7 correct? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 Q: We've seen notes of hers which record 10 Ms. Hutton saying that she would like Chief Bressette's 11 support but she wanted that support to be given 12 independently. And there's a reference in the note to 13 her -- Ms. Hutton not wanting to get involved in 14 substantive land-claim discussions. 15 Would you dispute the accuracy of that 16 record? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And in the September 6th 19 Interministerial Committee Meeting, was it ever conveyed 20 to the meeting that the Attorney General had given a 21 direction or an instruction that an injunction should not 22 be sought on an ex-parte basis? 23 A: Could you repeat that? 24 Q: Yes. I'm just asking whether you -- 25 you recall whether it was conveyed to the Meeting of
1251 September 6th that the Attorney General had given a 2 direction that an injunction should not be sought on an 3 ex-parte basis? 4 A: I don't recall that. 5 Q: Now, coming back to Ms. Hutton, I 6 take it that it is fair to say that in the September 6th, 7 Interministerial Committee Meeting, you did not take any 8 of Ms. Hutton's comments as any kind of direction or 9 instruction to the OPP as to how to handle the occupation 10 of the Park; is that fair? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And you described discussions between 13 Inspector Fox and Ms. Hutton as robust, in your evidence; 14 do you recall that? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: Well, isn't it also fair to say that 17 your recollection is that Ms. Hutton's comments in the 18 Meeting were brief and matter-of-fact? 19 A: I suppose what I'm -- what I'm saying 20 is that it was more to the point of what she was saying. 21 Q: More to the -- the content of what 22 she was saying rather than the manner? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And it's fair to say that you don't 25 have any particular recollection of the manner and tone
1261 of Ms. Hutton? 2 A: Not particularly? 3 Q: And I take it it's fair to say that 4 you didn't note any particular reaction from others in 5 the meeting to Ms. Hutton's comments? 6 A: I'm not certain about that. 7 Q: Well... 8 A: What I would say, sir, is that after 9 her comment -- after Ms. Hutton's comment with respect to 10 her conversation with the Premier from the previous 11 evening, out of Park only, I believe, it started out 12 there was a -- I recall there was a pause after she made 13 that comment, a pause in the conversation at the meeting. 14 Whether that was a reaction, I'm not 15 certain. 16 Q: All right. I take it then you don't 17 recall observing anything else in terms of a reaction to 18 Ms. Hutton's comments in the course of the meeting; is 19 that fair? 20 A: Not at this time, no. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Now, coming to the dining room 25 meeting, I take it that it's fair to say that you don't
1271 recall the -- the Premier or -- well, I'll leave it at 2 the Premier for the moment, I take it you don't recall 3 the Premier expressing a preference in the meeting about 4 what kind of injunction to obtain, that is an injunction 5 on an ex parte basis or an injunction on notice; is that 6 fair? 7 A: That's correct, yes. 8 Q: All right. And stepping back to the 9 September 6th Interministeral Committee meeting for a 10 moment. 11 As I understand it, your evidence is that, 12 at the meeting, what was being discussed as an injunction 13 which -- which you described as being on the normal basis 14 was an injunction that would be sought to be obtained on 15 Friday of the week, right? 16 A: "Best case Friday," I believe are the 17 words that I've recorded, yes. 18 Q: Okay. So that would have been two 19 (2) days after the Interministerial Committee meeting, 20 right? 21 A: Correct, yes. 22 Q: Do you recall there being discussion 23 that that, in fact, involved a shortening or a request of 24 -- of the court to shorten the time ordinarily required 25 for service of a notice?
1281 A: I have a vague recollection of that, 2 yes. 3 Q: And do you recall any -- any 4 discussion during the meeting about if -- with respect to 5 ex parte or the short notice you're referring to, whether 6 there was discussion about the material impact on the 7 situation of proceeding to seek the injunction on the 8 Friday or earlier than Friday, for example on Thursday, 9 the next day? 10 A: I'm not sure I understand your 11 question, sir. 12 Q: Okay. All right. As I understand 13 it, what you were saying was being discussed by Mr. 14 McCabe as being an alternative proceeding with an ex 15 parte injunction, was proceeding on a basis that would 16 see the government in court on Friday, right? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Okay. And did Mr. McCabe say that 19 there was any disadvantage to proceeding on Thursday 20 instead of Friday, that you recall? 21 Or do you recall a general discussion 22 about whether it would not be advisable for any reason to 23 proce -- to not proceed on Thursday but wait until 24 Friday? 25 A: Not specifically. What I recall in
1291 terms of Friday, that would be the time frame to proceed 2 with an injunction in the normal course. And than an ex 3 parte injunction, an application for an ex parte 4 injunction could be obtained quicker than that but that 5 his advice was that it was -- 6 Q: Was it your recollection that quicker 7 would -- oh, I'm sorry, pardon me. I didn't mean to 8 interrupt you, sir. My mistake. 9 A: I was just going to state what I had 10 earlier that Mr. McCabe indicated that in his opinion he 11 did not believe an application to be -- the outcome would 12 be successful for an ex parte. 13 Q: Now, coming back to the -- the dining 14 room meeting for a minute. You were saying that the 15 Premier was at one end of, I take it, a long rectangular 16 table; is that right? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And the Premier was not sitting at 19 the head of the table but he was sitting on the left of 20 Solicitor General Runciman who was at the head of the 21 table? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And as I understand it you were 24 standing at the other end of the room near a window? 25 A: We were seated.
1301 Q: You were -- I beg your pardon. 2 A: Yes, we were seated to the -- to the 3 far left corner of the room from the Premier. 4 Q: All right. And was Inspector Fox 5 closer to the Premier or further away from the Premier 6 than you? 7 A: He was closer. 8 Q: Was he sitting beside you? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And directly beside you, 11 right? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And where was Inspector Fox sitting 14 in relation to this air conditioner you're telling us 15 about? 16 A: The air conditioner was to my 17 immediate left. I was seated next to the window and it 18 was a window air conditioning unit so Inspector Fox was 19 to my right. 20 Q: Okay. And you said that the -- the 21 Premier when he was making comments was -- he had his 22 back to you? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And so he's -- is he facing across 25 the table or to a corner of the table?
1311 A: He was near the head of the table on 2 the side that we were, to the side of the room -- 3 Q: But -- 4 A: -- that we were seated at and he was 5 speaking across the table to Deputy Taman. 6 Q: Okay. And you said he was speaking 7 in a -- a relatively low tone? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: A calm tone? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you have any discussions with 12 Inspector Fox about how you had difficulty hearing the 13 Premier? 14 A: I believe I did at a -- at a later 15 date. 16 Q: Oh, how much later? 17 A: Within a year or two (2) possibly. 18 Q: And given where Inspector Fox was 19 sitting is it -- or did you observe that the Premier was 20 also turned away from Inspector Fox? 21 Did he also have his back to Inspector 22 Fox as well as to you? 23 A: Yes. 24 25
1321 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And I -- I guess one (1) matter that 4 I was going to raise with you if Mr. Millar had not was 5 this -- this matter that when you answered undertakings 6 in the civil action commenced by Mr. George on behalf of 7 the Dudley George Estate you were asked very specifically 8 whether you recalled anything about anything the Premier 9 said in this meeting and your answer was quite clearly, I 10 do not recall, right? 11 A: That's correct, yes. 12 Q: All right. Well, as -- as I 13 understand your evidence today you've recalled quite a 14 number of things now that you say the Premier said and I 15 guess what I'm -- what I wanted to get a little bit 16 clearer about is when -- when did these things come to 17 you? 18 Now, you've spoken about this holocaust 19 comment and how you seemed to be uncertain as to its -- 20 its relevance to Ipperwash or you seemed to have some 21 uncertainty about that and you've explained that that's 22 why you didn't include that in your answer at the time, 23 but all of these other matters, when did you recall them? 24 A: I believe the first recall that I 25 began to have was at the time the Inquiry was announced.
1331 Q: At the time the Inquiry was 2 announced? 3 A: In that -- in that timeframe. 4 Q: So that would have been in the fall 5 of 2003? 6 A: Approximately, yes. 7 Q: But that's -- but -- but you gave 8 these answers in July of 2003? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Okay. Well, I take it that when you 11 were asked the question which was to provide information 12 to Mr. George in the civil litigation you understood that 13 that was a serious matter, right? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And you understood that you were 16 being asked for any information that you had about what 17 the Premier had said in this meeting? 18 A: That's correct, yes. 19 Q: All right. But can you explain to us 20 then how it was that in July of 2003 you would have no 21 recollection of anything, but in the fall of 2003 you 22 would recall these other matters? 23 A: No, and I want -- I want to clarify 24 that. 25 Q: Okay.
1341 A: I'm not -- I'm not saying that I 2 recall all of the matters. 3 Q: Okay, fine. 4 A: In my -- in -- in my best 5 recollection I began to start to recall different events, 6 different comments and impressions at the moment it 7 became apparent that there was going to be a Public 8 Inquiry. Turning my mind back to those events from some 9 seven/eight (7/8) years previous, I began to start to 10 have a recollection. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: And -- 13 Q: What -- sorry, I don't mean to 14 interrupt you. 15 A: I was just going to say that I -- I 16 don't recall what my first recollection was, but I'm 17 estimating that that was when I started to have some 18 recall when I started to focus my attention more on the 19 matters that would be subject to the Inquiry. 20 Q: Sir, and -- and to be fair to you, 21 you were very clear earlier when you said that that was 22 when you started to recall, it wasn't when -- you didn't 23 say it was when you recalled all these matters, and I 24 didn't state that accurately to you and I apologize for 25 that?
1351 A: No, and, sir, in terms of July, I 2 believe it was of 2003, I did recall one (1) term, and it 3 was the term, holocaust. 4 Q: Right. But also in July of 2003, you 5 understood that a civil trial of Mr. George's action was 6 imminent; right? 7 A: I believe so, yes. 8 Q: There was a trial scheduled to start 9 in September of 2003, right? 10 A: I'm -- I'm not sure. 11 Q: But you believed it was imminent; 12 right? 13 A: It was -- I knew it was approaching, 14 yes. 15 Q: And you knew very well that you would 16 be a witness in that civil trial? 17 A: No, I didn't. 18 Q: Okay. Well you knew that you had 19 been asked for material information; right? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And so you knew at least there was a 22 prospect you would be a witness in the civil trial? 23 A: I seem to recall the advice I was 24 given at the time was that it was unlikely that I would 25 be testifying.
1361 Q: Okay. Well, I -- I don't want to 2 tamper with solicitor and client privilege, I'll just 3 leave it. 4 But what I would suggest to you, sir, is 5 that you had in fact every reason to treat the discovery 6 request that was made of you very seriously, right? 7 A: The difficulty that I had was that I 8 -- the events had transpired from such a period of time 9 before, that it -- it was -- it was difficult to recall 10 much of the events, in terms of making a response. 11 Q: Okay. In this process of further 12 recollection that you've described to us, you -- you said 13 that you had reviewed a number of documents. 14 Did you speak to Inspector Fox about what 15 his recollections were? 16 A: I don't recall specifically speaking 17 to -- I know I have spoken to Superintendent Fox, I 18 speak to him, but -- 19 Q: Sure. But with respect to the events 20 of September 6th, 1995? 21 A: I'm sure at some point over the years 22 we have spoken about that, yes. 23 Q: Okay. Well all right, well did you 24 speak to Inspector Fox about the events of September 6th, 25 1995, after you learned that an Inquiry was being called
1371 in this matter? 2 A: I'm sure we did, yes. 3 Q: Okay. And did he discuss with you 4 his recollections of what had occurred in the Premier's 5 diningroom? 6 A: No, he didn't. 7 Q: Okay. Did you -- did you have 8 occasion to observe his -- his evidence at this Inquiry, 9 in any recorded form, either a videotape or by way of a 10 transcript, before you testified? 11 A: Yes, both, sir. 12 Q: I see. And did these recollections 13 as to what the Premier said in the meeting come to you 14 before or after you reviewed Inspector Fox's evidence in 15 video and written form? 16 A: I know that one (1) came to me after 17 his -- his evidence. 18 Q: Only one (1)? 19 A: At least one (1) that I can think of 20 today. 21 Q: Okay, what was -- what was the one 22 (1) that -- that came to you? 23 A: The comment with respect to at some 24 point in the future the OPP would have to account for its 25 actions.
1381 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: But you -- I take it that you have 4 told us everything that you recall about what the Premier 5 said in that regard; right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Right. And I take it you have now 8 told us everything that you say you recall about what the 9 Premier said in this meeting; that you don't recall 10 anything else? 11 A: That's correct. Yes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And so I -- I take it it's fair to 16 say that you have a relatively limited reflect -- 17 recollection of exactly what transpired in this room? 18 A: I'm not sure if I would describe it 19 as limited. It was exacerbated by the fact that I 20 couldn't hear a great deal of what was transpiring in the 21 room. 22 Q: Okay. All right. Now, I take it 23 that at -- at the time of this meeting you would have had 24 no particular reason to focus on precisely how Mr. Fox 25 was introduced to the meeting? Exactly what words were
1391 used to introduce him to the meeting; right? 2 You'd have no particular reason to -- to 3 focus on that particular point? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And so then is it possible that at 6 the Premier's Dining Room meeting when Mr. Fox is 7 introduced he was introduced as being from the Solicitor 8 General's Ministry as distinct from being referred to 9 as -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead. 11 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Always mind the 12 judge. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 15 Q: Is it -- is it possible then that 16 when Mr. Fox was introduced he was introduced as being 17 from the Solicitor General's Ministry as distinct from 18 being referred to specifically as quote "Inspector" 19 unquote Fox? 20 A: No, he was -- he was introduced as 21 Inspector Fox. 22 Q: You sure about that? 23 A: I was startled by it. 24 Q: You were startled by it? 25 A: Yes.
1401 Q: Why were you startled by it? 2 A: The manner in which it was said. It 3 was Mr. Lindsay introduced him as Inspector Fox in quite 4 a loud voice as he opened the door. 5 Q: Okay. And what again was the -- the 6 -- the timing of Inspector Fox's actual report to the 7 meeting? What did that -- when did that occur in the 8 sequence of events of the meeting? 9 A: I believe it was within the first two 10 (2) to three (3) minutes. 11 Q: Well, is it -- is it possible that he 12 gave his report after the Premier left the meeting? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. But, in any event, when 15 the Premier left the meeting it's -- it's your 16 recollection that he was leaving it to the -- the meeting 17 to come to the right conclusion with respect to the 18 Ipperwash situation; right? 19 A: He said that, yes. 20 Q: Just bear with me for a moment, sir, 21 please. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1411 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thank you very much, 2 sir. Those are my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Downard. 5 Ms. Horvat...? 6 MS. JACQUELINE HORVAT: I don't have any 7 questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No 9 questions. 10 Counsel for Mr. Hodgson...? 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ERIN TULLY: 13 Q: Good afternoon, I'm counsel for 14 Christopher Hodgson and I just have a few questions for 15 clarification about this September 6th meetings you refer 16 to? 17 A: Yes, ma'am. 18 Q: And first of all you only have notes 19 of one (1) of the meetings so all of your recollections 20 from the Premier's meeting are strictly recollections 21 that you've made recently? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck-
1421 Jackson...? 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I think in 3 fairness to the Witness it's not that those recollections 4 were made recently, I think what My Friend is trying to 5 suggest is that the recollections aren't made with the 6 benefit of notes. Perhaps that's the question she's 7 trying to ask. 8 MS. ERIN TULLY: That wording's fine. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That 10 wording's fine. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, unaided with -- 12 without any notes. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. ERIN TULLY CROSS: 15 Q: And is it your recollection that on 16 September 6th there were -- how many meetings, sorry, on 17 September 6th is it your recollection that Mr. Hodgson 18 attended that you were also in attendance at? 19 A: Just the one (1) meeting. 20 Q: Just the one (1) meeting with the 21 Premier? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you don't recollect another 24 meeting that Mr. Hodgson was at that you and Mr. Fox 25 attended as
1431 well -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- on that date? Is it possible that 4 the comments that you attribute to Mr. Hodgson having 5 made to Mr. Fox did not occur at that meeting but at 6 another time that day? 7 A: No, that's not possible. 8 Q: During the Premier's meeting while 9 the Premier was actually in attendance you've testified 10 that Mr. Hodgson did not say anything at the meeting for 11 that portion? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Now, Mr. Hodgson will say that he was 14 relieved that the responsibility for the exercise was no 15 longer his and that he left the room immediately after 16 the Premier stood up indicating that the meeting was 17 over. 18 Does that sound at all possible to you? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And Mr. Hodgson will also say that he 21 did not speak to Mr. Fox at that meeting at all and again 22 is it possible that you're at all confused about the 23 timing of the events of that day? 24 A: Not on that point, no. 25 Q: At any point in time did Mr. Hodgson
1441 give Mr. Fox any direction to do anything or express any 2 orders or directions to be given to the OPP? 3 A: He said he wanted his Park back. 4 Whether that was a direction I don't know. 5 Q: Thank you. Those are all my 6 questions. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 8 Mr. Sulman, I think? Or sorry, Mr. 9 Horner? 10 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: Good afternoon, Mr. 11 Commissioner, I spoke with Mr. Sulman before he left and 12 he wanted me to indicate that although he had reserved a 13 few minutes he had no questions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. Ms. Perschy...? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Good afternoon, 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 24 afternoon. 25
1451 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 2 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Patrick. 3 A: Ma'am. 4 Q: My name's Anna Perschy and I'm 5 counsel for Deb Hutton who was the executive assistant to 6 Premier Harris at the time and I just have a few 7 questions for you. 8 I provided you with a vanilla folder 9 earlier, I was wondering if you could just turn to that, 10 in particular two (2) briefing notes, one (1) which is 11 part of a fax from Julie Jai. And for the assistance of 12 My Friends it's Document Number 1012232. It's about 13 three (3) pages in. 14 It's the briefing note for the Honourable 15 Charles Harnick dated July 10th which I believe was 16 previously made Exhibit P-498. And then also just behind 17 it there's another briefing note, this one dated 18 September 6th, 1995. And for the assistance of My 19 Friends that's Inquiry Document Number 1010501. 20 Now, both of these documents describe the 21 procedures for dealing with Aboriginal emergencies and I 22 note that you mentioned in your testimony-in-chief that 23 you had seen the appendix. 24 I was wondering if you had seen the 25 entire document, i.e., both -- both the -- the first two
1461 (2) pages and then the -- the appendix; do you recall? 2 A: Well, I -- I -- just before you -- 3 and should have interrupted you, I've got the September 4 6th briefing note, but I -- I don't have the earlier one 5 you referred to. It may be here but I haven't 6 encountered it yet. 7 Q: It's -- it's the one -- it's in a 8 document -- it's a fax -- the first page is a fax cover 9 sheet from Julie Jai, it's dated August 2, 1995. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And at the top left-hand corner 12 there's the number 1012232. 13 A: Yes, I have that now. 14 Q: And it's three (3) pages in. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: And my question is, do you recall 17 having seen these procedures before, the -- either of 18 these two (2) documents? 19 A: This doesn't look like the document 20 that I was referring to, which was the policy guideline 21 for the Blockade Committee. 22 Q: Well, the appendix is three (3) pages 23 behind the briefing note. 24 A: Yes, I recognize that, now that 25 you've pointed it to me.
1471 Q: But do you recall seeing -- do you 2 recall seeing a briefing note? 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: Okay, fair enough. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: I've just been advised 9 by Mr. Millar that Document Number 1012232 was made 10 Exhibit P-504. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, and the appendix, 12 which is part of 1012232, just the appendix, the 13 guidelines was P-498. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 16 Q: Both of these briefing notes state on 17 the first page, that the issue is, quote: 18 "How to ensure that adequate processes 19 are in place so that Aboriginal 20 Emergencies, including blockades and 21 other forms of direct action can be 22 prevented, or if not prevented, 23 resolved as quickly and safely as 24 possible." 25 Now, you may not have seen the document,
1481 but I'm wondering -- I take it you were aware that that 2 was the Government's stated goal, in the event of a 3 blockade or direct action, to try and resolve or end it 4 as quickly and safely as possible? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: In both briefing notes, one (1) -- 7 both from July 10th and September 6th, in the second 8 bullet under the heading "Current status" -- sorry, the 9 first -- the first bullet, refer to the IMC as being the 10 main mechanism for coordinating the response. 11 And I take it that you were aware of -- of 12 the central role that the Interministerial Committee 13 played in respect to responding to Aboriginal 14 emergencies? 15 A: Yes, ma'am. 16 Q: And in the second bullet there's the 17 reference that the Committee was responsible for 18 developing recommendations and ensuring that there was 19 adequate information with all affected groups, both 20 internally within the Government, and with the general 21 public. 22 And again, you may not have seen the 23 document, but I take it that you understood that that was 24 part of the -- part of the Committee's function? 25 A: Yes.
1491 Q: On the second page of both briefing 2 notes there's a reference to the principles guiding the 3 response to emergencies? It states that: 4 "The principles are the prevention of 5 violence, property damage or personal 6 injury, a timely lifting of the 7 blockade for negotiations, and a review 8 of the Aboriginal grievances and issues 9 in the establishment of processes to 10 address them, however, no substantive 11 negotiation is to occur until after the 12 blockade is lifted." 13 And I take it that you were aware of the 14 fact that no substantive negotiations were to occur until 15 the blockade or other direction -- direct action had 16 ended; correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You testified that prior to September 19 of 1995 you had attended, I think you said, a couple of 20 IMC meetings. I'm wondering, did you attend any meetings 21 where the issue was an occupation as opposed to a 22 blockade? 23 A: I don't believe so. 24 Q: And you testified that you were an 25 OPP officer seconded to the Ministry of the Solicitor
1501 General in 1995, right? 2 A: I was seconded in -- in March of '95, 3 yes. 4 Q: And as such, during the secondment, 5 while you retained your OPP rank, your function I take 6 it, was to provide advice on Aboriginal Policing issues 7 to the Deputy Solicitor General? 8 A: Yes, ma'am. 9 Q: And I think I understood you to say 10 this morning that you reported to Ron Fox during your 11 secondment? 12 A: I did, yes. 13 Q: And I take it you understood that he 14 in turn reported to the Deputy Solicitor General? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, would you agree with me that it 17 would be up to the Deputy Solicitor General as to what, 18 if anything, an Advisor in her Ministry could 19 communicate, either to the OPP or anyone else, regarding 20 internal discussions within the Government? 21 A: She might set out instructions in 22 that regard, yes. 23 Q: Now you testified this morning that 24 you received and relayed some information regarding Camp 25 Ipperwash in the summer of 1995, but the meeting on
1511 September 6th was your first involvement in the -- in the 2 Ipperwash situation; is -- do I have that right? 3 A: My first direct involvement, yes. 4 Q: And you testified that Ron Fox had 5 indicated to you sometime in the summer that the Park 6 might be occupied next, following the occupation of the 7 barracks? 8 A: I believe I testified that it was 9 sometime in August, yes. 10 Q: And I believe you also mentioned that 11 he briefed you regarding the meeting on September 5th? 12 A: I wouldn't say it was a briefing. He 13 phoned me to advise that he wanted me to attend with him 14 the following day and he gave me some brief details. 15 Q: Okay. So you'd received some 16 information prior to the meeting on September 6th, 1995? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Could you turn back to the fax from 19 Julie Jai, which is Document Number 1012232? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-504. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 23 Q: Which is P-504, yes. Thank you, Mr. 24 Millar. 25 There are a couple of information notes in
1521 this package of materials and I'm wondering, at any time, 2 did you receive either the -- the information note or the 3 Camp back-grounder, which is right at the end? 4 A: I believe I've seen these documents 5 but I -- I -- I can't -- I can't state whether I saw them 6 in August. I believe I may have seen them after or 7 during the period of September 6th and... 8 Q: By September 6th, i.e. prior to the 9 meeting of the IMC on September 6, did you know that back 10 in 1993 the previous government had advised Chief 11 Bressette and one of the Stoney Pointers, Maynard George, 12 that -- that the Province had good Title to the Park? 13 A: I don't recall. 14 Q: Do you recall the APPA (phonetic) on 15 September 6th, that there were references to the Province 16 having clear Title to the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did you know that the Elected 19 Chief of the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation didn't 20 support the occupation of the Park? 21 A: I was aware that -- I was aware there 22 -- that there was an issue with respect to, I believe it 23 was something that Superintendent Fox reported to the 24 meeting. I believe the comment I recorded was, "No -- no 25 sanction from counsel," I believe.
1531 Q: Now during your secondment, I take it 2 that you were in regular contact with Kathryn Hunt? 3 A: That's correct, yes. 4 Q: And do I take it that you had 5 provided her with advice in regard to First Nation 6 policing issues? 7 A: That's correct, yes. 8 Q: Did you also have occasion to provide 9 her with any police updates? 10 A: Relevant to -- to this event? 11 Q: Relevant to Ipperwash or any -- any 12 other situation? 13 A: No. 14 Q: But I -- I believe you testified this 15 morning that on at least one (1) occasion you provided 16 Julie Jai with an update regarding the takeover of the 17 barracks? 18 A: I don't have a recollection of that. 19 I -- I -- I understand that -- that I was to have 20 contacted Ms. Jai in her capacity as the Chair of the 21 IMC. But I -- I don't have a recollection of that. 22 Q: But you don't disagree -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: Of -- Ms. Jai testified to that, and 25 you don't disagree with that?
1541 A: No, I don't. 2 Q: And I take it you don't know with 3 whom she would have shared that information? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Other than your contact with Ms. 6 Hunt, prior to September 1995 had you had much contact 7 with political staff? 8 A: I would say little contact. 9 Q: And had you had much experience of 10 attending meetings with political staff from different 11 ministries? 12 A: Not political staff, no. 13 Q: And I take it that prior to the 14 Inter-Ministerial Committee meeting on September 6th you 15 hadn't met Ms. Hutton before? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And I take it that you didn't know 18 what her role and responsibilities were within the 19 Premier's office? 20 A: I believe she -- I believe she 21 introduced herself as an adviser to the Premier at the 22 meeting on September 6th. 23 Q: But other than that you didn't have 24 any information with respect to her role or 25 responsibilities within -- within the Premier's office?
1551 A: No, not her role. No. 2 Q: Other than your handwritten notes 3 which are at Tab 7 of Commission Counsel's documents, I 4 take it that you didn't make any other contemporaneous 5 notes about the September 6th IMC meeting? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And I take it these notes are simply 8 an attempt to summarize some of what was said? It's not 9 -- it's not a verbatim transcript? 10 A: No. It isn't. 11 Q: The meeting of the 6th -- of the 12 Inter-Ministerial Committee was specifically to address 13 the occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park; correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And there's some references in your 16 notes to the -- some of the information that was received 17 at the meeting regarding the situation at Ipperwash Park 18 and there were some reports of gunfire at the meeting. 19 And we've heard evidence that Deb Hutton 20 asked that that information be confirmed and I was 21 wondering if you recalled that? 22 A: Her asking? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: No, I don't. 25 Q: I take it that you know from Ron Fox
1561 after you spoke with the OPP at some point during the 6th 2 that there was a police report about gunfire during the 3 night? 4 A: I believe that was the purpose for 5 which he left the room was to confirm that. 6 Q: And at some point during the day you 7 -- you found out from him that that -- that there was, in 8 fact, a police report of gunfire? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you've testified this morning 11 that there was some information provided with respect to 12 concerns from the local municipality and businesses and 13 the local cottages. 14 But I take it there was more than just 15 concern expressed, there was also some anger and 16 frustration with respect to the situation; you were aware 17 of that from the local community? 18 A: Anger and frustration from the local 19 community? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Possibly. I knew there was a 22 concern. 23 Q: And you testified that at the IMC 24 meeting there were some updates from the ground. And I 25 take it that with -- with respect to an assessment of
1571 what was happening at the scene of the situation, you 2 would defer to the incident commander's assessment of 3 that situation; in terms of your ability to evaluate it 4 from Toronto, as compared with the ability of the -- of 5 the incident commander at the scene? 6 A: Yes, well, Superintendent Fox was 7 garnering that information. I -- I didn't have a role in 8 that. But in terms of interpretation, I -- I don't know 9 what, if any, interpretation he -- Superintendent Fox put 10 to the information. 11 Q: And I'm not asking you that. 12 A: I may have missed that. 13 Q: I'm simply asking as compared with 14 your position, say, sitting at the meeting, your ability 15 to interpret that as opposed to the ability of the 16 incident commander at the scene, you would defer to his 17 assessment? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: If you could just turn to Julie Jai's 20 notes which I believe are at Tab 8 of Commission 21 counsel's documents. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P- 536.
1581 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 2 Q: It's Exhibit P-536. Thank you, Mr. 3 Millar, and it's Inquiry Document Number 1012579. And if 4 you could turn to page 2. Sorry, it's -- it's the -- the 5 number of the notes with a little "1" at the top. And of 6 the updates from Ron Fox and there's the reference to the 7 noon hour meeting and then below that there's the 8 reference: 9 "Premier doesn't want anyone involved 10 in discussions other than OPP, possibly 11 MNR. Doesn't want chief or others 12 involved. Doesn't want to get into 13 negotiations." 14 And then there's a reference to: 15 "MNR now viewing this as a police 16 issue." 17 Do you recall Ms. Hutton making a comment 18 along those lines? 19 A: I believe so. I believe I have 20 captured it in a -- somewhat of a different fashion in my 21 notes. 22 Q: And I was just going to take you to 23 that. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1591 Q: In your notes there's again the 2 references to the update from Ron Fox and then the 3 notation: 4 "D. Hutton. Premier last night OPP 5 only maybe MNR. Out of Park only, 6 nothing else." 7 And I was actually just going to suggest 8 to you that both of those notes actually refer to the 9 same comment and that Ms. Hutton was simply indicating 10 that OPP and MNR should not get into any substantive 11 negotiations but only have discussions regarding ending 12 the occupation. 13 Is that consistent with your recollection? 14 A: Yes. There -- there appeared to be 15 some concern with the term 'negotiate'. 16 Q: And you gave some evidence regarding 17 Ms. Hunt making a comment about the protocol of the 18 Solicitor General during the meeting. And we've heard 19 evidence that Ms. Hunt's comment regarding Runciman's 20 reservation in that regard was made following a question 21 as to what ministers can say now that charges have been 22 laid. 23 And that appears to be consistent with 24 your notes and I'm just wondering if that's consistent 25 with your recollection?
1601 A: No. My recollection of that is there 2 were discussions -- there discussions with respect to how 3 the OPP were going to be proceeding. And the -- and the 4 reason I -- I take a little issue with what you've 5 suggested is that I recall at the time that Ms. Hunt made 6 the comment, that I felt it came at a helpful juncture in 7 the discussions. 8 That she was reaffirming that the 9 minister, the political side of government were not to be 10 interfering in OPP operations. So I agree with you that 11 the notes are -- there are some similarity but my 12 recollection is that it came about for a different 13 reason. 14 Q: Okay. Well could you turn to the -- 15 the vanilla folder that you have. There's some 16 handwritten notes which are Inquiry Document Number 17 1011784. These are Eileen Hipfner's notes. And I'm 18 sorry I don't have the exhibit number, Mr. Millar. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-636. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY. 22 Q: Thank you. P-636. And if you could 23 turn to -- it's page 3 of the notes at the top of the 24 page, there's the notation: 25 "Fox will make inquiry."
1611 And then just below that, a little number 2 3: 3 "And direction from Ministers." 4 A: Could you point me to that again 5 please? 6 Q: Sure, it's -- it's -- there's the 7 number 3 at the top of the page of the handwritten notes. 8 A: Okay. I don't see -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 4 10 and 3 are reversed in order I think? 11 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Yes, I think that's 12 right. 13 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, thank you, Your 14 Honour. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 17 Q: And at the top of the page there's 18 the notation: 19 "Fox will make inquiry." 20 Do you see that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then there's the heading: 23 "Direction from Minist -- from 24 Ministers." 25 And then there's some notations from Mr.
1621 Bangs: 2 "Went to Minister with plan devised at 3 table, he spoke to eight (8) to ten 4 (10) media, the way things are 5 escalating Minister doesn't want to 6 carry this especially with the --" 7 A: I can't help you on that. 8 Q: I can't help you. Anyway, further 9 down there's -- there's the notation: 10 "This is quickly spiralling out of 11 MNR's hands." 12 That's the last notation from Mr. Bangs, 13 and then there's a space and then it says: 14 "Also question of what Ministers can 15 say if OPP are handling this now that 16 charges have been laid." 17 And there's that reference also in your 18 notes. And then there's a reference to a comment 19 attributed to Mr. Moran: 20 "Can't have OPP speak on behalf of 21 Government. Harnick clear if AG is 22 being asked to seek injunction, will do 23 so ASAP. With regard to public carriage 24 of the issue, we are open to direction 25 from the centre."
1631 And then just below that there's the 2 reference to Ms. Hunt: 3 "Runciman's reservation comes from fact 4 that Sol Gen's protocol is not to be 5 involved in the day to day operation of 6 the police. Political arms should be 7 divorced." 8 And then another reference to Mr. Moran 9 ask -- referencing a concern about the safety of Officers 10 and inquiring as to the injunction process. 11 And I'm wondering if that assists you in 12 terms of recalling when Ms. Hunt made her comment with 13 respect to the protocol? 14 A: It doesn't assist my recollection. 15 My recollection was that it -- her comments came at a 16 helpful juncture in terms of the discussion. 17 Q: And I take it, just going back to 18 your notes, because your notes also have the reference to 19 various comments made by MNR, including the point that 20 now that charges have been laid should any Ministers be 21 involved. And then the reference to Katherine and the 22 MNR Sol Gen briefing, which you couldn't recall. And 23 then the statement of the protocol. 24 I take it with respect to your own notes, 25 they were -- you made those notes sort of
1641 contemporaneously, so they reflect generally the order of 2 the discussion? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Were you provided with the minutes of 5 the September 5th meeting, which are at Tab 6 of 6 Commission Counsel's documents, on the 5th or the 6th? 7 A: I believe the minutes of the 5th were 8 circulated at the outset of the September 6th meeting. 9 Q: And did you know that at the 10 September 5th meeting, we've heard some evidence in this 11 regard, that Elizabeth Christie had listed five (5) legal 12 options for addressing the occupation, namely the 13 criminal charges, the trespass offences under the 14 Provincial Parks Act, the Trespass to Property Act and 15 the Public Lands Act. 16 Were you aware that that occurred on the 17 5th? 18 A: I was aware there were discussions 19 about various authorities that could be taken, yes. 20 Q: And did you know that at the meeting 21 on September 5th the Interministerial Committee agreed 22 that they needed to have lawyers review those options and 23 that they'd report back at the next meeting? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Well we've heard evidence that the
1651 lawyers worked to provide some briefing information 2 regarding the legal framework, and I was wondering if you 3 could take a look at the memorandum which was in the 4 vanilla folder that I provided to you. It's entitled, 5 "Civil and Criminal Proceedings." 6 And it's actually -- it's document number 7 1011745 and the actual -- the first couple of pages it's 8 a minister's briefing form subject, Occupation of 9 Ipperwash Provincial Park by the Stoney Pointers. 10 Do you have that? 11 A: 745? 12 Q: Yes. 1011745? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the fourth page in is this 15 memorandum and I believe it was previously made Exhibit 16 P-634. I take it that you didn't receive this document 17 at the meeting on the 6th? 18 A: I don't recall it. 19 Q: If you turn back then to your notes-- 20 A: Can you refer me to my notes, the 21 tab. I haven't looked at them in a -- 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 7. 23 THE WITNESS: Tab 7. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY:
1661 Q: Tab 7. It's not, sort of, the will 2 say. And in terms of your notes, it's the third page of 3 your notes. 4 And it's just -- it's the -- the 5 notation that you referred to in-chief. The notations 6 attributed to the PMO: 7 "The longer they occupy - major crisis 8 - what about criminal code." 9 And these notes are in point form and I 10 suggest that they don't record what was actually said, 11 but it's simply your attempt to summarize some of what 12 was being said; right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And we've heard evidence that the 15 query regarding the criminal code was actually made by 16 Tim McCabe and I suggest that you may not have noted the 17 change in speaker; isn't that likely? 18 A: Not on -- no. Not on this point. I 19 recall this was Ms. Hutton. 20 Q: Well, if you could take a look again 21 at Ms. Hipfner's notes, just by way of example, page -- 22 the notes which are at 1011784 with the little five (5) 23 at the tope of the page? 24 A: What page? 25 Q: Sorry, it's -- it's the ones which
1671 have the -- the notation "five (5)" at the top? The 2 first notation is: 3 "Leith has been working on affidavits 4 since yesterday. Best case scenario 5 Friday." 6 Do you have that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Well, in these notes there's the 9 reference to a comment attributed to Ms. Hutton: 10 "Premier's view that the longer the 11 occupiers are there the greater the 12 opportunity they have to garner 13 support, arm selves." 14 And then below that: 15 "Tim, that suggests criminal code 16 approach." 17 And then there's some -- some notations 18 with respect to Mr. Fox and I'm wondering if that assists 19 you at all in terms of recalling that it was actually Mr. 20 McCabe? 21 A: It would appear to contradict my 22 notes and my recollection, yes. 23 Q: And if you could turn to, sorry, to 24 Julie Jai's notes which are at Tab 8 of Commission 25 Counsel's documents, the notes -- the notes with the
1681 number "three (3)" at the top of the page and the first 2 notation is: 3 "We are seeking the injunction..." 4 And then below that, halfway down the page 5 there's a reference to some comments attributed to Deb 6 and then below that there's a reference to Tim: 7 "That suggests we should proceed under 8 code." 9 And I'm just wondering if Ms. Jai's notes 10 and Ms. Hipfner's notes assist you today in perhaps 11 suggesting to you that your notes -- that in your notes 12 you simply failed to attribute -- or failed to note that 13 there was a change in speaker; is that possible? 14 A: It appears to suggest that, yes. 15 Q: Now, at this meeting on the 6th Ms. 16 Hutton conveyed that the occupation should be brought to 17 an end sooner rather than later through -- through the 18 legal means available, right? 19 I take it that's what you recall? 20 A: Sooner than later and -- and to look 21 at the various authorities that existed in the Code, 22 Trespass to Property Act and other provincial statutes. 23 Q: And I'm going to suggest that at the 24 meeting on September 6th Ms. Hutton was following up on 25 the previous meeting and further exploring the options
1691 that were identified then? 2 A: I wasn't at the meeting on the day 3 prior, so... 4 Q: I appreciate that, but you had seen 5 the minutes to that meeting and you'd -- 6 A: I have a -- 7 Q: -- been given some information from 8 Mr. Fox in that regard. 9 A: I have a recollection that the 10 minutes were distributed, I -- I don't have a specific 11 recollection of the minutes though. 12 Q: Do you need a moment to take a look 13 at the minutes? 14 A: I haven't -- I haven't reviewed the 15 minutes, but if you can point me to them. 16 Q: Well, let me take you to them for a 17 moment. It's at Tab 6, Tab 6 of Commission Counsel's 18 documents and on the second page of the minutes under, 19 "Options" there is a statement: 20 "Options include: 21 1. Criminal charges, example mischief. 22 2. Trespass offences. Provincial 23 Parks Act, Trespass to Property Act, 24 and Public Lands Act, and 25 3. Civil injunction proceedings.
1701 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 2 referring him to a meeting that he wasn't at and the 3 minutes -- 4 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Now, but he said that 5 he received the minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, but 7 I'm not sure, he didn't say that he read the minutes. He 8 thinks they may have been distributed. 9 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Well... 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I'm not 11 sure how this helps on cross, I -- 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 14 Q: Well, I'm simply going to ask him if 15 having looked at it whether you recall seeing it. I mean 16 it was distributed at the meeting. 17 Did you have an opportunity or do you 18 recall if you reviewed the minutes at the time during the 19 meeting? 20 A: No, I don't recall, ma'am. 21 Q: But it's possible that you may have 22 reviewed the minutes during the meeting? 23 A: Yes, it's possible. 24 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 25 at the meeting on September 6th what Ms. Hutton was doing
1711 was following up -- sorry -- following up on the previous 2 meeting and further exploring the options that were 3 identified at that meeting? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: How can he say what -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 6 what to -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and respond to a 8 suggestion of what Ms. Hutton was doing? Ms. Hutton can 9 tell us what she was doing. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 11 that's something that you -- 12 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Well, it's simply his 13 understanding. I'm not asking him to re -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it 15 doesn't strike me as an answer that he can provide. I 16 mean you can make that argument at some point that that's 17 in those minutes and that's what she was doing at this 18 meeting and so it makes sense that what she was doing was 19 following up, but how can he say that? 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 22 Q: Could you turn back to Ms. Jai's 23 notes which are at Tab 8? 24 A: Yes, I have them here. 25
1721 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: If you go eight (8) pages in... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: There's a little number 6 on the top 8 and the first reference is, "Local spokesperson to the 9 OPP?" 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then there's the following 12 references? 13 "Deb. Feels MNR as property owner can 14 ask OPP to remove people. Scott ..." 15 And we've heard evidence that this is a 16 reference to Scott Hutchison; the notation: 17 "You can ask them to remove them. You 18 can't insist or demand that they be 19 removed." 20 And then the reference to Deb: 21 "Has MNR asked OPP to remove them? 22 They could be formally requested to do 23 so but how and when they do it is up to 24 them. Could have that as a 25 communication message. MNR has
1731 formally asked that they remove them." 2 And then some references to some comments 3 made by Mr. Sturdy. And I'm wondering if that's 4 consistent with your recollection or if you have a 5 recollection of this portion of the meeting? 6 A: I have a vague recollection of it. 7 Q: And is this generally consistent with 8 your recollection? 9 A: Generally, yes. 10 Q: Now, at the Interministerial 11 Committee meeting was to review the most recent 12 information from the scene, find out what were the 13 directions from the ministers and then assess what 14 recommendations to make. Is that right? 15 A: I would agree with that, yes. 16 Q: And the meeting was also supposed to 17 consider communication issues both in terms of the 18 possible content of any media releases to the public. 19 And also in terms of who would be the spokesperson. That 20 was another thing the Committee was doing. 21 A: There were discussions held in that 22 regard, yes. 23 Q: And I'm going to suggest that the 24 Interministerial Committee meeting on September 6th did 25 consider both the legal options and the communication
1741 issues and move back and forth between those two (2) 2 throughout the meeting. 3 A: There were discussions on both at 4 different times, yes. 5 Q: And I'm also going to suggest that 6 during the course of the Interministerial Committee 7 meeting, the participants looked at different consider -- 8 sorry, different considerations regarding the legal 9 options in terms of legal risks, logistics, timing, 10 effectiveness, et cetera. 11 And also reviewed the associated 12 communication issues in that regard. Is that fair? 13 A: There were discussions on all of 14 those, yes. 15 Q: And the meeting concluded on the 16 basis that the Interministerial Committee was to 17 recommend that the government apply for an injunction 18 ASAP. 19 A: It's noted, yes. 20 Q: And that's your recollection as well; 21 that that's how it ended? 22 A: I believe I put a qualifier to it 23 this morning. 24 Q: Well, you weren't sure if -- what 25 was in everybody's mind in terms of whether or not they
1751 agreed with the consensus. I think that was -- you 2 testified to that this morning. 3 A: Did I? Did I testify what was in 4 their minds? 5 Q: Well, you said you -- I believe you 6 said that there was a consensus and -- and you weren't 7 sure if everybody actually agreed with that consensus. 8 A: My impression was that there was a 9 consensus amongst those that favoured the approach that 10 Superintendent Fox was advocating in conjunction with an 11 injunction in the normal course. 12 But the -- my impression was that there 13 was less of a consensus from others in terms of -- on 14 that approach. 15 Q: And my question to you, sir, was 16 simply that at the conclusion of the meeting regardless 17 of what your impressions may have been, but at the 18 conclusion of the meeting, there was only one (1) 19 recommendation coming out of the Interministerial 20 Committee and that was that the government apply for an 21 injunction ASAP. 22 A: I agree, yes. 23 Q: If you could turn back to the vanilla 24 folder, I just have two (2) more documents to put to you. 25 The first is a memorandum from Julie Jai
1761 dated November 27th, 1995 regarding revised procedures 2 for Aboriginal emergencies. It's Document Number 3 10123134. And it attaches proposed procedures for 4 Aboriginal emergencies. 5 A: Yes, I believe I have it here. 6 Q: Did you ever see this document? Not 7 necessarily the -- the attached memo but the revised -- 8 the proposed procedures for Aboriginal emergencies. It's 9 a draft dated November 27th, 1995? 10 A: Yes, I recall it. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's P-703. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY. 14 Q: And that's P-703. Thank you, Mr. 15 Millar. And I'm wondering, did you see a further draft 16 dated February 14th, 1996, which is Inquiry Document 17 Number 1012212? 18 A: On the -- on the surface, with the 19 exception of the date, it appears to be the -- another 20 draft of the same document. 21 Q: And do you know if there were any 22 drafts subsequent to February 14th, 1996? 23 A: I don't know. 24 Q: And the last document, the one with 25 the date February 14th, 1996 is P, I'm sorry?
1771 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 708. 2 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 708, thank you, Mr. 3 Millar. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 6 Q: And did you have any involvement in 7 preparing either of these two (2) drafts? 8 A: I believe I may have. Yes. 9 Q: And do you recall what that 10 involvement was? Did you speak with Ms. Jai on the 11 subject? 12 A: I believe Mr. Lazor. 13 Q: With Mr. Lazor? 14 A: Yes. 15 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Thank you, Mr. 16 Patrick. Those are all of my questions. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 Mr. Myrka...? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WALTER MYRKA: 23 Q: Good afternoon, Inspector Patrick. 24 My name's Walter Myrka and I appear on behalf of the 25 Province of Ontario.
1781 If I might begin by asking you about the 2 meeting in the Premier's dining room on the 6th 3 September. As I understood your evidence the meeting was 4 already underway when you arrived? 5 A: Yes. It was. 6 Q: And when you came to the meeting, 7 Deputy Taman was already talking to the Premier 8 concerning injunctions and effectively, as I think you 9 put it, explaining and educating the Premier about the 10 options that were involved? 11 A: That's an apt description. Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And would it be fair to say 13 that Deputy Taman in his explanation that -- that he 14 provided to the Premier, he -- he told the Premier about 15 the historical approaches the OPP may have used on other 16 occasions? 17 A: He did, yes. 18 Q: And he stressed the need for dialogue 19 and negotiation? 20 A: Yes. He did. 21 Q: Okay. Now, you indicated that at the 22 IMC meeting on the 6th that Kathryn Hunt had spoken about 23 the protocol about how the Ministry of the Solicitor 24 General should not be involved in the day-to-day 25 operations of the OPP?
1791 A: The Minister, yes. 2 Q: Yes. And was that issue broached at 3 all during the meeting in the Premier's dining room? 4 A: Not that I recall. No. 5 Q: Okay. And I understood your evidence 6 to be that Deputy Todres didn't speak to that issue, as 7 best as you can recall? 8 A: She spoke briefly and -- and not to 9 that issue, that's correct. 10 Q: Okay. And you don't recall anyone 11 else speaking to that issue? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: Okay. Now, the meeting was already 14 underway and do I understand that Inspector Fox and 15 yourself, at some point, left the meeting before it 16 concluded? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Okay. Did someone ask you to leave? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And who was that? 21 A: Deputy Taman. 22 Q: Okay. And do you know what was 23 discussed at the meeting after you -- you'd left? Did 24 anybody tell you? 25 A: No.
1801 Q: Okay. You also indicated in your 2 evidence that in the time that the Premier was there he 3 did not criticize any of the actions of the OPP; is that 4 fair? 5 A: I didn't -- with the exception of the 6 one (1) comment, which I'm not sure whether you can term 7 it as criticism. I know when he made the comment I was 8 somewhat defensive. I don't know whether it was because 9 I was reacting to what may have been a criticism. 10 Q: Okay. And you described the -- the 11 discussion that took place between Minister Hodgson and 12 Inspector Fox. Did Inspector Fox leave the meeting 13 feeling upset or are you able to tell us if that was the 14 case? 15 A: We were upset. 16 Q: You were both upset? Okay. 17 You mentioned that during the meeting 18 there was a discussion of the Crown's title to Ipperwash 19 Provincial Park; that subject came up? 20 A: Minister -- you're referring to the 21 Diningroom Meeting still? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Minister Hodgson was asking -- he -- 24 he prefaced his comments with some mention of, that it's 25 a -- it's a Provincial Park, and that the title is ours
1811 and so what -- what's the difficulty here. So the title 2 he mentioned in -- in his Opening Remarks to us. 3 Q: Did anyone else talk about that or 4 provide any report to the participants at the meeting on 5 that issue, or are those all the remarks on that subject 6 that you can recall? 7 A: That's all I can recall. 8 Q: Okay. Now, at that meeting in the -- 9 in the diningroom, did anyone there utter words to the 10 effect of, "Get the f-ing Indians out of the Park," words 11 to that effect? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: Did you hear any obscenities or 14 expletives used at all by any of the participants at that 15 meeting? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: Okay. Did you overhear anybody say 18 something like that before or after the meeting, as you 19 were coming or when you left? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And do I understand as well 22 that at the earlier meeting, that is the IMC Meeting, you 23 also didn't hear words uttered to that effect? 24 A: That's correct, yes. 25 Q: Indeed by anyone who was there?
1821 A: No, sir. 2 Q: Okay. At the meeting in the 3 diningroom, was there any discussion about the 4 allegations concerning burial sites at Ipperwash 5 Provincial Park? 6 A: I don't believe so, no. 7 Q: Okay. You don't recall anything 8 specifically? 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: Okay. Now, at the earlier meeting, 11 the IMC Meeting, you indicated in your evidence that the 12 local community, there was a concern in the local 13 community. 14 Can you explain that a little more for us 15 so that -- help us to understand what the concern was as 16 you understood it? 17 A: I don't recall who reported that, but 18 I -- I had an awareness that there had been -- there was 19 some media with respect to concerns of local -- of the 20 local citizenry. I believe there had been, I believe 21 Superintendent Fox had indicated that there had been 22 correspondence generated or in some fashion had to be 23 responded to by the OPP, of concerns. 24 Q: And are you able to assist us in 25 knowing what some of those concerns were?
1831 A: I believe there was a concern about 2 the occupation of the Park, clearly, from the local 3 citizenry. 4 Q: And was that because the Park was 5 ordinarily used by the local citizenry, excuse me? 6 A: I believe that was part of it, yes. 7 Q: Okay. After September 6th, you 8 talked about the -- a safety concern regarding dropping 9 documents from a helicopter? 10 A: There was -- there was discussion on 11 September 7th, at one of the meetings, I -- I may have 12 referenced it in my notes, with respect to the service, 13 yes. 14 Q: Okay. And can you assist us more, 15 just setting out what any specific concerns were, as best 16 as you can recall them? 17 A: I believe that one of the concerns 18 was the proximity that a helicopter, or an aircraft, 19 would have to take to the Park, and I believe that may 20 have related to the prior information with respect to 21 firearms or the gunfire that had been heard. 22 The -- the second point that I recall was 23 that there was a concern around the notion of affecting 24 service in that fashion, and that that might not be well 25 received by those receiving the notice. There was a
1841 concern of serving the occupiers in that fashion. 2 Q: Are you saying then that there was a 3 concern that dropping documents from the air could 4 inflame the situation by upsetting people below? 5 A: Inflame may be a little strong, but I 6 -- I believe it was felt it might be seen as an adverse 7 way of proceeding. 8 Q: Okay. Isn't it true that there was 9 also a concern that if you dropped documents from the 10 helicopter that somebody might get hurt, literally? 11 A: It's possible. I don't recall that 12 specifically. 13 Q: You don't recall that? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. 16 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Thank you, Mr. 17 Commissioner, those are my questions. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 19 Mr. Myrka. 20 Mr. McGilp, do you have some questions? 21 MR. IAN MCGILP: No, we don't. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 23 have any questions. And I think this is a good time to 24 take an afternoon break. We'll take an afternoon break 25 now.
1851 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 2 for fifteen (15) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 3:45 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 4:02 p.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed, please be seated. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 afternoon. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Good afternoon, Mr. 12 Commissioner. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 15 Q: Good afternoon, Inspector Patrick. 16 A: Good afternoon. 17 Q: Inspector Patrick, my name is Julian 18 Falconer and I act on behalf of Aboriginal Legal Services 19 of Toronto. 20 A: Sir. 21 Q: If I understand this correctly, 22 Inspector Patrick, in terms of timing prior to your 23 involvement in the Ipperwash matter starting in and 24 around July 1995, or your even hearing about it, you 25 would have had an extensive background dealing in First
1861 Nations issues and in particular the tripartite 2 agreements relating to policing, correct? 3 A: I had a good deal of experience, yes. 4 Q: Following the incident in September 5 1995, your involvement in Ipperwash, per se, tapered off 6 but in fact you took over Superintendent Ron Fox's job? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: So is it fair to say that in terms of 9 having an opportunity to observe First Nations liaising, 10 you did it both in a narrower context for a specific band 11 historically, yes? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then you had an opportunity to 14 assist Superintendent Fox over a number of years, yes? 15 A: Fourteen (14) months, yes. 16 Q: All right. And in addition to that 17 you took the job over yourself? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: So you -- you'd agree with me that 20 you had quite an opportunity to gain a background in this 21 particular position, is that correct? 22 A: I agree. Yes, sir. 23 Q: Could you help me, in terms of your 24 job in assisting Superintendent Fox is it fair to say you 25 had a routine daily opportunity to watch him discharge
1871 his functions First Nations Liaison Officer? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And having had the opportunity of 4 your historical experience and then following him leaving 5 the job, you taking the job, what was your view on how he 6 performed his functions? 7 A: Oh, he performed his functions in an 8 exemplary manner. 9 Q: Exemplary? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And could you assist me on what was 12 your view in terms of Superintendent Fox's judgment in 13 discharging his functions as a First Nations Liaison 14 Officer? 15 A: Could you be a little more specific, 16 sir? 17 Q: Well, when I -- and that's fair. 18 When I raise judgment I'm interested in particular -- 19 there was a line of questioning from Mr. Downard for 20 former Premier Harris in which it was suggested or 21 intimated to the witness at the time, Superintendent Fox, 22 that his emotions had gotten the best of him and that his 23 impressions of what was being said in key meetings were 24 in fact being dominated by his emotional state. 25 Now, could you assist me on what your
1881 impression of Superintendent Fox and his judgment in 2 these high pressure scenarios? 3 A: His judgment was very sound at all 4 times including those days. 5 Q: All right. Now, I've asked you to 6 review a transcript of a taped conversation between 7 Superintendent Fox and Incident Commander Carson and then 8 subsequently Chief Coles, is that correct? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And specifically I'd asked you to 11 review it so that we didn't have to play the tape in the 12 Commission proceedings which I -- I think would be met 13 somewhat positively. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: I had regret but no one else did. In 16 -- in that respect, sir, what I'd asked you to look at 17 was specifically how Superintendent Fox recounted what 18 occurred at the -- at the IMC meeting which you attended 19 at, September 6th, and the meeting in the Premier's 20 dining room that you also attended at on September 6th; 21 did you do that for me? 22 A: I've reviewed the transcript. Yes. 23 Q: And do you dispute Superintendent 24 Fox's recollection of those meetings? 25 A: I don't dispute. There are -- there
1891 is recollections or evidence in here that I don't have a 2 recollection of but... 3 Q: All right. And do you disagree -- 4 well, let me back up. When you say there are matters you 5 don't have a recollection of, the general gist of his 6 interpretations of what was going on in that meeting, is 7 it consistent with yours? 8 A: Yes. It is. 9 Q: All right. It's fair to say that in 10 terms of the September 6th, 1995 tape of the conversation 11 between Superintendent Fox and then Incident Commander 12 Carson and the other tape of the September 5th, 1995 13 conversation; these are not news to you, you knew about 14 those tapes before today? 15 A: That's correct. Yes. 16 Q: And, in fact, I take it that when 17 those tapes became public you would have had occasion to 18 listen to them? 19 A: That's correct. Yes. 20 Q: All right. And did you go to anyone, 21 especially in respect to September 6th but the 5th as 22 well, did you go to anyone and say Ron Fox got it wrong? 23 A: On the contrary. 24 Q: Sorry? 25 A: On the contrary.
1901 Q: And could you help me with why you 2 say, "on the contrary?" 3 A: I think I've testified that 4 Superintendent Fox, in my judgment, had very sound 5 judgment and had a very accurate recollection of the 6 events. That's about the best I can put it. 7 Q: Thank you. In terms of some of the 8 matters that we have the benefit of from your notes, one 9 of the issues that you raised in your notes of September 10 6th, 1995, and I'm talking about the IMC meeting, and 11 please feel free to turn those notes up so you can follow 12 me, it's Tab 7 of Commission Counsel's binder, I believe. 13 And it's the fourth page in. And I'm 14 wondering, madam reporter, is the microphone to my right 15 also live? Thank you. 16 Do you have that in front of you? 17 A: I have the notes. Which page, sir? 18 Q: Yes. If -- if you could direct your 19 attention to where Ms. Hutton makes the reference to 20 criminal code options. And I believe it's the bottom of 21 the third page? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: It's your evidence that, in essence, 24 Ms. Hutton was raising, exploring an alternative to a 25 civil injunction process?
1911 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the reason I put it to you that 3 she was raising that was that it was apparent to all in 4 the room that a civil injunction, especially one with 5 notice, would, in fact, be a lengthier process than what 6 the Premier wanted? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 8 minute, before you answer that question. 9 Yes, Mr. Downard...? 10 MR. PETER DOWNARD: He's asking the 11 witness to say what was in Ms. Hutton's mind as to what 12 motivated her -- 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's fair. I can 14 rephrase. I don't think I asked that but I can rephrase 15 anyway to make Mr. Downard happy. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, then 17 make Mr. Downard happy. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 20 Q: Your note and your recollection with 21 respect to the criminal code alternative is based on your 22 interpretation of what Ms. Hutton was saying at the 23 meeting and that is, your interpretation of what Ms. 24 Hutton was saying at the meeting was that she was raising 25 the alternative of a criminal code approach to the
1921 problem in order to avoid the delays inherent in civil 2 injunction proceedings, correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: The discussion around this notion of 5 a criminal code alternative based on what you heard at 6 the meeting and your interpretation of the words spoken 7 by Ms. Hutton, this was seen as a faster measure in which 8 the police, pursuant to the criminal code and the 9 supporting provincial statutes, could effect arrests; 10 correct? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again -- 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I said, based on 13 his interpretation of words spoken. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I've heard 15 your question, I want to hear Mr. Downard's objection. 16 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, the problem is, 17 it could be called interpretation but it's an -- an 18 interpretation as to what is in somebody's mind. It 19 would be helpful if -- if the witness was saying what was 20 -- what was said or his own particular interpretation of 21 what was said. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I -- 23 MR. PETER DOWNARD: But -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- think 25 that's what he asked.
1931 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- we're -- we're 2 going beyond that. And what's being suggested is a 3 rationale in someone's mind. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we may 5 be splitting hairs on words, I am not sure, but his -- 6 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, with -- with 7 Mr. Falconer, it's usually advisable to be careful. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I take that in the 10 flattering way it was conveyed. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I am sure it 12 was meant to be flattering. Yes, Mr. -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think that he can 14 ask him what he understood, -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- not what his 17 interpretation of what somebody else said. He can 18 understand, he can say what he heard and what he 19 understood from it. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, okay. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I may be splitting 22 hairs now. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That is 24 fine. I think you have the point. I think you have the 25 point, Mr. Falconer.
1941 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you, Mr. 2 Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now see if 4 you can ask the question so we do not get any objections. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 7 Q: I find myself grateful, Inspector 8 Patrick, that I'm dealing with a professional witness 9 who's testified before, so you -- 10 A: Twenty -- 11 Q: -- heard that exchange. 12 A: Twenty-some years ago, yes. 13 Q: All right. You heard the exchange, 14 could you substitute your interpretation of the words 15 spoken with your understanding of the words spoken? 16 Based on your understanding of the words 17 spoken, it's fair to say that what was being explored in 18 the comments by Ms. Hutton, were that there would be 19 arrest powers ancillary to any Criminal Code steps taken; 20 correct? 21 A: I understood that, yes. 22 Q: Yes. And arrest necessarily meant, 23 pursuant to what you understood in the conversation, to 24 mean taking people into custody and removing them from 25 the Park; correct?
1951 A: Yes. 2 Q: So the note at the bottom of the 3 third page of your notes, when it refers to: 4 "PMO, longer they occupy major crisis, 5 what about Criminal Code." 6 That is your way of saying your 7 understanding that the Premier's position was, it's too 8 long to use the civil process, can't we look at Criminal 9 Code arrests; correct? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: Now Premier Harris, that afternoon, 12 that afternoon Premier Harris, in a dining room as he's 13 leaving says, he knows, he's confident that you'll all do 14 the right thing; remember him saying that? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: Yes. He told you what he thought the 17 right thing would be, didn't he? 18 A: I'm not sure that he ventured his -- 19 an opinion, sir. 20 Q: All right. Let me back up. Based on 21 the information you had received, from his assistants, 22 and staffers, you understood what he thought was the 23 right thing; correct? 24 A: In that context, yes. 25 Q: In fact, Ms. Hutton has been
1961 described by Superintendent Fox as, what he understood, 2 that is Superintendent Fox understood, as the voice of 3 the Premier. 4 Was that also your understanding? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And that understanding 7 never changed? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: And so when you heard what you heard 10 from Ms. Hutton on the morning of September 6th, 1995, 11 that was entirely consistent with the impression you were 12 getting from the Premier when you sat in that dining room 13 on September 6th, 1995? 14 A: Entirely. 15 Q: All right. And the message that was 16 entirely consistent is the Premier wanted fast action. 17 A: Correct? 18 Q: And as that Premier, Premier Harris 19 left the room, and he communicated that he was confident 20 you as a group would do the right thing, you didn't 21 really believe that he was saying anything other than, 22 I'm confident you'll get them out fast; isn't that right? 23 A: Generally, yes. 24 Q: And getting them out fast was 25 portrayed by Deb Hutton, the voice of the Premier that
1971 morning, as one possibility was to use arrest powers; 2 correct? 3 A: She didn't specifically refer to 4 arrest, but I believe I understood what she was implying. 5 Q: And that's what you believe she was 6 implying; correct? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: You had conversations with 9 Superintendent Fox at the time; correct? 10 A: At the time of...? 11 Q: Of those meetings? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Right after them? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And you both shared the same view of 16 what was being intimated to both of you; correct? 17 A: We didn't speak at great length, I -- 18 I believe I've testified we were -- we were angry or 19 upset after the meeting, yes. 20 Q: Now you said that you were angry and 21 upset, you're talking about after the meeting in the 22 dining room? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: I want to ask you some questions. 25 Lawyers always say a few questions, it's a big white lie.
1981 I want to ask you some questions about the dining room. 2 Specifically, in your Answers to 3 Undertakings, I can take you back to the document that 4 Mr. Downard asked you about, but you were asked why you 5 didn't have -- where your notes were and you actually say 6 in the answer to undertaking: 7 "I didn't take any notes, it didn't 8 seem appropriate to take notes for a 9 cabinet meeting." 10 Do you remember words to that affect? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: All right. Now you used the words 13 "cabinet meeting", correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. This may seem like a dumb 16 question but I'm going to ask you, sir, why would you 17 have described the meeting in the dining room of 18 September 6th, 1995 that you attended, as a cabinet 19 meeting? 20 A: There were cabinet ministers there 21 and the Premier. 22 Q: Would you agree with me that to all 23 appearances, as far as you were concerned, it looked like 24 the Premier with his inner circle of power as far as you 25 were concerned? Your impressions, not anybody else's.
1991 A: He had the relevant ministers there. 2 I agreed with that. 3 Q: You described a table that was a 4 boardroom table and then you described a room. Now you - 5 - you were a police officer, you must have done traffic 6 duty at some time, you got to know distances in 7 investigations; correct? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: All right. Can you put some meat on 10 the bones in terms of the size of this room? 11 Let's start off broad. Was it as big as 12 the arena that we stand in today? 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: All right. Would you agree with me 15 that the room was your standard sized boardroom? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. Now let's put meat on 18 that. In terms of one side of the room to the other, I'm 19 going to walk away from you and you tell me when to stop 20 to describe the length of the room, all right? Your 21 approximation of the length of the room. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 23 have to do that, Mr. Falconer. You -- he can make an 24 estimate. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: But he -- he's
2001 already indicating -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I don't have -- can 4 you make an estimate in feet roughly the -- the size of 5 the room? 6 A: No, I can't. 7 Q: That's why I -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can't 9 make an estimate of the dimensions of the room? 10 THE WITNESS: No, I can't, sir. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I got that sense 12 before, Mr. Commissioner, that's why I was going to walk 13 away and ask him to simply give me what he estimates in 14 distance. If it's not helpful to you, Mr. -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's find 16 something in the room that -- 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I'd simply 18 just move a little further until he tells me when to 19 stop. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 21 Let's see if that works. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 24 Q: All right, sir. 25 A: The length of the room?
2011 Q: Yes, please. 2 A: I think it would be about that 3 length. 4 Q: All right. So for the record, I'm 5 standing a -- a distance from you about -- I'm about six 6 (6) to seven (7) behind the lectern. 7 Would you agree with me that I'm in -- in 8 and around the neighbourhood of twenty (20) to thirty 9 (30) feet from you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. Now you mentioned that 12 when you first entered the room, you looked down and saw 13 the Premier. 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: How far was the Premier in feet at 16 that point from you? 17 A: He was directly in front of us as we 18 came into the room. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: So, in distance, five (5) or six (6) 21 feet. 22 Q: The Premier was five (5) or six (6) 23 feet from you? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And that would have been the point
2021 and time in which the principle secretary, Mr. Lindsay 2 introduced Superin -- at the time Inspector Fox to the 3 Premier in the room; is that correct? 4 A: Correct, yes. 5 Q: So you were six (6) feet from the man 6 when Mr. Fox is introduced? 7 A: Approximately, yes. 8 Q: You said you were startled by the 9 fact that the rank of Mr. Fox being Inspector was 10 referred to, correct? 11 A: No it wasn't the rank, sir. It was 12 the -- it was the level of the announcement. It was a 13 loud announcement. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Not the rank. 16 Q: All right. And that startled you? 17 A: It did, yes. 18 Q: And that's why you remember it? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. Now a -- a number of 21 different occasions, you were present when Superintendent 22 Fox then Inspector Fox, provided briefings or 23 perspectives to various parties. Whether it was at the 24 IMC meeting or at the meeting in the Premier's dining 25 room or subsequent to the -- to the death of Dudley
2031 George in -- in the nerve centre meetings or the meetings 2 of the various deputy ministers, correct? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: What was the perspective in your 5 experience, based on your presence there, what was the 6 perspective generally advanced? What perspective was 7 Inspector Fox advancing in those meetings? 8 A: In terms of the events at Ipperwash, 9 in terms -- 10 Q: Well, I apologize because the 11 question's vague so I'll rephrase it. 12 A: It's broad, yes. 13 Q: I'm trying to draw out from you, your 14 view or your evidence on whether, in fact, what 15 consistently was the function of Inspector Fox at the 16 time was to present the police perspective on matters; is 17 that fair? 18 A: The facts, yes. 19 Q: But it was from a police perspective; 20 is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And, in fact, you understood that 23 that was part of his role. 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And, in fact, when there were
2041 requests for briefings on what was going on on the ground 2 did people ask for Ms. Jai's opinion? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: When the incident commander gets 5 contacted at command post who's contacting him? 6 A: Superintendent Fox. 7 Q: And that's because it's a police 8 officer who has access to command post; is that correct? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And people in the room operated on 11 that understanding; is that correct? 12 I'll -- I'll withdraw with Mr. Downard, 13 it's not a proper question. 14 In terms of process, part of the functions 15 of the job you ultimately occupied and provided support 16 before was to be the liaison for the police officers on 17 the ground, correct? 18 A: That's correct, yes. 19 Q: In fact, in July 1995, when this 20 incident first came to your attention, is it not true 21 that you were contacted by an officer in the field? 22 A: Not -- not an officer in the field, 23 but a member of the field command. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Inspector Scott, yes.
2051 Q: And Inspector Scott contacted you to 2 relay the new developments at Ipperwash? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And Superintendent Fox was not there 5 at the time, at the office, correct? 6 A: I believe he was on vacation leave at 7 the time. 8 Q: So you were the one who passed on 9 what was going on to the political masters in the form of 10 Ms. Todres, Deputy Minister, correct? 11 A: To the Deputy Minister, yes. 12 Q: And that's your function? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: To act as liaison between the police 15 on the ground and the political masters, correct? 16 A: I don't refer to a Deputy Minister as 17 political. 18 Q: All right. But it is your function 19 to report in the fashion I've described, taking out the 20 words, "political master?" 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: All right. You've had a chance to 23 reflect on the meeting that you were at on September 6th, 24 1995 in the morning with Ms. Hutton and Superintendent 25 Fox and all the other people at the IMC meeting?
2061 You've had a chance to reflect on that 2 meeting, yes? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: A number of times? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Rolled it around in your mind, 7 thought about what happened? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: What people said? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: What you described as the vigorous 12 exchange between Inspector Fox and Ms. Hutton, yes? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Inspector Fox advanced the OPP 15 approach and how the OPP has traditionally and 16 historically handled these? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And Ms. Hutton advanced the Premier's 19 view? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: After having the opportunity to roll 22 this all in your mind can you help me? Have you ever had 23 any doubt that anyone, from your perspective, knew that 24 you were police officers? 25 A: Doubt?
2071 Q: Yes. 2 A: No. 3 Q: In terms of the process that took 4 place when you showed up in the dining room on September 5 6th, 1995 what were the words used to ask Inspector Fox 6 who was introduced as Inspector Fox -- what were the 7 words used to ask him to give a briefing? 8 A: How was he introduced? 9 Q: He was introduced as Inspector Fox, 10 yes? 11 A: Twice. 12 Q: All right. Help me with the second 13 time. 14 A: Deputy Minister Todres called him by 15 his rank. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: And -- and asked the Premier if this 18 would be an appropriate time to have -- receive a 19 briefing from him. 20 Q: And who's "him"? 21 A: Inspector Fox. 22 Q: And is that when she used the words, 23 "Inspector Fox?" 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: All right. So, as far as you recall
2081 there was a reference on two (2) occasions to his rank? 2 A: There was, yes. 3 Q: Right after there's a reference to 4 Inspector Fox's rank what does he do, that is Inspector 5 Fox, the second time? 6 A: He gave a briefing on the -- the up - 7 - up-to-date status of the situation on the ground. 8 Q: Now, did he give a briefing back at 9 the air conditioner or did he get up? 10 A: He stood, yes. 11 Q: He stood? And when he spoke who did 12 he speak to? 13 A: He was speaking to the room. 14 Q: All right. Do you recall if the 15 Premier had his back to him? 16 A: He did. 17 Q: All right. And in terms of the 18 process I -- I need to understand a little bit about 19 that. 20 You said that -- could -- could -- I 21 apologize because I was having some difficulty 22 understanding the layout you described. I'm a little bit 23 directionally challenged. 24 In -- in terms of this table was it an 25 oval, square, or round table?
2091 A: It was rectangular. 2 Q: All right. A rectangular table. 3 Now -- 4 A: It was a long table. 5 Q: All right. And when you walked into 6 the room the Premier was six (6) feet to your left? 7 A: No, he was... 8 Q: I apologize. It's me getting it 9 wrong, so I apologize. I want to be helpful, Mr. 10 Commissioner, and so we'll just start it over. 11 And could you describe in relation to the 12 rectangular table -- I told you I was directionally 13 challenged, could you describe in relation to the 14 rectangular table -- 15 A: We have something in common. 16 Q: Uh oh. Where he -- where he was 17 sitting? 18 A: He was direct -- more or less 19 directly in front of us when we walked into the room. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: But he was seated to the left side of 22 the table near the head of the table. Near the front 23 where we entered the room. 24 Q: All right. So the table was set up - 25 - a rectangular table, and it was set up with the head
2101 towards the door you walked in? 2 A: Yes. And running straight away from 3 us. 4 Q: All right. And when you went to go 5 sit down you had to travel the length of the table to sit 6 on the other side? 7 A: And we weren't seated at the table. 8 We were in the far left corner of the room. 9 Q: All right. And so when you first 10 came in the door, I take it, you walked only several feet 11 into the room in order to be introduced? 12 A: We were introduced as the door was 13 opened. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: We were standing in the doorway. 16 Q: Based on what you saw when Inspector 17 Fox was introduced as Inspector Fox, was there anything, 18 based on what you saw, was there anything obstructing the 19 view between Inspector Fox and the Premier? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: In fact, when you looked did you have 22 a clear view of Premier Harris? 23 A: I did. Yes. 24 Q: Based on what you saw, did he have a 25 clear view of you?
2111 A: Yes. He looked up at us briefly. 2 Q: All right. And I take it that's 3 probably the first time you've ever met with a sitting 4 Premier? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Have you met with one since? 7 A: I've met Mr. Harris once again, yes. 8 Q: You did? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: When did you meet Mr. Harris once 11 again? 12 A: It was in relation to the official 13 opening ceremony of the general headquarters building in 14 Orillia. 15 Q: Did you have any conversation? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: In terms of the process that occurred 18 on September 6th, when Inspector Fox and you went to the 19 other side of the room and sat down, it was immediately 20 after that that Inspector Fox was introduced for the 21 purposes of a briefing? 22 A: Not immediately. 23 Q: Right. 24 A: But it was within the first couple of 25 minutes.
2121 Q: Okay. And the process by which he 2 was introduced for the briefing had Deputy Minister 3 Todres presenting him and then him standing? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: Now, this is the part I'm trying to 6 understand. 7 Was Premier Harris fully wheeled around 8 facing the wall on the other side of the room with his 9 back to you, like my back is to you right now? 10 A: Yes, he was. 11 Q: Did you ever come to understand why 12 he would have done that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Where was Mr. Taman in relation to 15 Mr. Harris? 16 Was he seated at the table? 17 A: Yes. He was directly across from the 18 Premier. Directly across the table seated at the table. 19 Q: The long -- the long ways, all the 20 way down the table? 21 A: He was directly across from the 22 Premier. 23 Q: I'm sorry, so the short way, the 24 width? 25 A: Yes.
2131 Q: All right. Now, Ms. Hutton, where 2 was she seated? 3 A: She was seated near Mr. Runciman to 4 the right or near the head of the table, as I recall. 5 Q: And Mr. Harnick? 6 A: Mr. Harnick was to the Premier's left 7 and Mr. Hodgson was to the left of Mr. Harnick. 8 Q: You had the Minister of Natural 9 Resources, the Attorney General, the Solicitor General 10 and the voice to the Premier, were those four (4) people 11 the closest ones to Premier Harris seated at the table? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: Did Ms. Hutton have -- the distance 14 between Ms. Hutton and former Premier Harris at the 15 table; how would you describe it? 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And it'll be clear 17 in a second why I'm going to this picky information. I 18 apologize. It will be clear in a minute. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 22 Q: The distance in feet between Ms. 23 Hutton and Premier Harris, roughly? 24 A: Two (2) or three (3) feet. 25 Q: "Two (2) or three (3) feet". They
2141 were within earshot of one another? 2 A: I believe so. Yes. 3 Q: Was Ms. Hutton sitting right beside 4 Premier Harris? 5 A: I believe Minister Runciman was 6 seated next -- directly next to Mr. Harris. 7 Q: All right. At any time did you see 8 Ms. Hutton clarify or say anything about these are police 9 officers, Premier? These are police officers; did you 10 hear her say anything like that to the Premier? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: Was there any doubt in your mind 13 based on your exchanges with Ms. Hutton the morning of 14 September 6th, 1995 that she knew you were police 15 officers, in your mind? 16 Was there doubt in your mind? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He can't -- he can't-- 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'll withdraw it 19 and rephrase it. I understand. I understand. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 21 fine. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I can rephrase. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 25 Q: You've already addressed this
2151 question so let me back it up and ask it a different way. 2 Did anything arise at the meeting of 3 September 6th, 1995 in the Premier's dining room after 4 Inspector Fox was introduced twice as Inspector Fox, in 5 which you observed Ms. Hutton to be surprised by the fact 6 that you were police officers? 7 Did anything arise? Did you see anything? 8 A: No, I didn't. 9 Q: Now, Solicitor General Runciman at 10 the time, you testified, was seated right beside Premier 11 Harris; correct? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: Now, we've heard from Superintendent 14 Fox that he met the former Solicitor General Runciman; 15 were you also at a meeting with the former Solicitor 16 General prior to September 6th, 1995? 17 A: We -- we had briefed the Solicitor 18 General over the course of the summer. 19 Q: All right. So that's prior to 20 September 6th, 1995? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: In those meetings did anything occur 23 which caused in your mind any doubt that they knew you 24 were police officers? 25 A: Minister Runciman knew we were OPP
2161 members. 2 Q: All right. And at any time, whether 3 it was at the time of the introduction of Inspector Fox 4 the first time or the second time when Inspector Fox is 5 on his feet and having just been introduced again as 6 Inspector Fox, did you observe Solicitor General Runciman 7 lean over to Premier Harris or caution the meeting that 8 it isn't right to hear from a police officer this way; 9 did that ever happen? 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: During the entire meeting, do you 12 recall seeing Commissioner Thomas O'Grady? 13 A: No, he wasn't at the meeting. 14 Commissioner O'Grady? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: At the dining room meeting, no. He 17 wasn't there. 18 Q: You worked in the Interministerial 19 capacity for some years. 20 Would you agree with me that protocol and 21 convention would have called for Commissioner O'Grady to 22 have been involved in that kind of a meeting? 23 A: I'm not sure that it would have been 24 appropriate for the Commissioner to have been there. I 25 believe it was appropriate for the Deputy Ministers,
2171 that's their function. I don't believe -- no. 2 Q: And the reason you don't believe it 3 would have been appropriate for the Commissioner to be 4 there was that you don't think that it's appropriate to 5 put police officers, serving members, police officers in 6 the position to be directed by politicians; correct? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Because whether or not those serving 9 police officers actually give in to the political 10 direction, the appearance or perception that it could 11 create a political interference is extremely problematic; 12 isn't it? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: It's problematic because you, as 15 police officers, lose the ability to claim that you 16 exercised your powers of arrest, usage of lethal force 17 and otherwise completely independent of political 18 interference; correct? 19 A: Yes. And there's a longstanding 20 principle. 21 Q: But accepting there's a long-standing 22 principle, you'd agree with me that sometimes, sometimes 23 long-standing principles could be wrong, right? 24 A: Yes. It's possible. 25 Q: But this one makes sense, doesn't it?
2181 A: Yes. 2 Q: Would you also agree with me that 3 asking Inspector Fox to be party to the Premier's views 4 on the OPP in the fashion that he was problematic? 5 Let me rephrase. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'll rephrase. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 9 minute. Do you have an objection or do you want to wait 10 and -- 11 MR. PETER DOWNARD: No, I'll -- I take it 12 the question -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I take it. I'm 15 rephrasing it. 16 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- many times is 17 being withdrawn. So I'll hear the new question. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, go 19 ahead. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, it's only 21 withdrawn because My Friend rises and I'm trying to 22 assist him. If he doesn't want me to withdraw it, I 23 won't withdraw it. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 25 If you want to withdraw it, withdraw it.
2191 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 4 Q: In terms of Inspector Fox's role at 5 the meeting, you were party to a situation where the 6 Premier expressed a view about what was going on at 7 Ipperwash Park; correct? 8 Well, now, I've made a suggestion to the 9 witness. If Mr. -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He hasn't 11 said anything. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Downard has 13 though. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, he 15 hasn't. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's just 18 standing at the ready. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. I'm 20 sorry. He distracted me. Could I -- I've now lost my 21 train of thought -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 23 confused the witness. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- so I'm going -- 25 Mr. Patrick I'll start over with you.
2201 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 4 Q: You were in a meeting and you recall 5 certain words being uttered by Premier Harris, correct? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: All right. And I'm going to take you 8 to my notes on it because I want to make sure you and I 9 agree on what you recall. 10 First of all, you recall the Premier being 11 frustrated, correct? 12 A: More perplexed but frustrated as 13 well, yes. 14 Q: Yes. You recall the Premier being 15 both perplexed and frustrated, correct? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And the reason the Premier based on 18 what you heard and saw, the reason the Premier was 19 frustrated and perplexed is that he wanted to see things 20 happen more quickly, correct? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And the thing that he wanted to see 23 happen more quickly was that the occupiers be removed 24 from the Park, correct? 25 A: Yes, sir.
2211 Q: All of that information, that 2 communication, all happened in your presence, correct? 3 A: Some of it did, yes. The meeting was 4 in progress when we arrived. 5 Q: But the conclusions concerning the 6 Premier's frustration and his being perplexed at how long 7 the removal of the occupiers was taking, that all 8 happened in front of you, correct? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Serving members of the OPP, correct? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And you'd agree with me that whether 13 or not it was intended to influence you, that was 14 unfortunate. 15 A: I agree. 16 Q: And it's unfortunate for the very 17 reasons you felt the Commissioner shouldn't have been at 18 that meeting, correct? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Now you didn't actually know -- you 21 didn't know that Inspector Ron Fox was communicating the 22 contents of these meetings back to Incident Command -- to 23 Incident Commander Carson, correct? 24 A: No. No, I didn't. I knew he was 25 communicating with then Inspector Carson but the
2221 substance of the meetings, no, I didn't. 2 Q: And you'd agree with me for the very 3 reasons you said Commissioner O'Grady ought not to have 4 been at that meeting, it stood even doubly that Incident 5 Commander Carson shouldn't have been told of the 6 Premier's views at that meeting, correct? 7 A: That's a difficult question. I knew 8 that then Inspector Carson and Inspector Fox were 9 colleagues. They were commissioned officers. There was 10 information being exchanged. It was -- it was likely not 11 helpful, no. 12 Q: And to be fair, a liaison is suppose 13 to be a clearing house for information, correct? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: In an ideal situation a liaison 16 simply shuttles back between two (2) particular 17 institutions or bodies or people providing the 18 information back and forth, correct? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And in all your time as a liaison 21 officer did anybody train you specifically in your 22 capacity as First Nations liaison officer, did anybody 23 train you on what could and could not be said to front 24 line police officers versus politicians? 25 A: No training per se.
2231 Q: And experience is important, correct? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: Common sense is important. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And with all of the experience and 6 common sense you'd agree with me that specific style 7 problems may call for specific style training. 8 A: I'd agree. 9 Q: Hypothetically, if you were being 10 used as a vehicle to transmit information to the police, 11 you might not have been twigged to that, because you 12 wouldn't be trained on that danger; would you agree with 13 that? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 15 Millar. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I don't know -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 18 you answer the question. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't know if he can 20 answer this hypothetical question. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's fine I can - 23 - I can rephrase it in a fashion that works. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER:
2241 Q: At any time were you trained on the 2 dangers of being used as a vehicle for passing 3 information onto front line officers, were you ever 4 trained on that? 5 A: Not on that, no. 6 Q: Now you made reference to the fact 7 that the Minister of Natural Resources in the form of Mr. 8 Hodgson -- I apologize. I got the evidence wrong so I'm 9 going to restate it. 10 You testified earlier today that 11 representatives of the Ministry of Natural Resources at 12 the September 6th, 1995 IMC meeting had discussions 13 around their knowledge of events surrounding gunfire, 14 correct? 15 A: It was brought into the meeting by 16 the MNR, yes, on the teleconference. 17 Q: And then what happens is Fox leaves 18 the room to check with Incident Command to check the 19 story? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: Would you agree with me that the 22 whole point of that is to use Fox's access to the ground 23 to, in essence, dispel myths or confirm facts? 24 A: I think it was important that that 25 type of information coming at the Committee was validated
2251 by the police. 2 Q: And so the process involved Fox 3 checking and coming back and dealing with it; correct? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And as far as you were concerned, the 6 people at that meeting saw Inspector Fox as very useful 7 in that regard, correct? 8 The question's problematic, I'll rephrase 9 it. 10 As far as you were concerned it was one of 11 the roles of a First Nation Liaison Officer, correct? 12 A: Yes. And -- and the purpose you'll 13 see in many of the meetings of having the police provide 14 that early update, early on, I think is self-evident. 15 Q: Would you agree with me, though, that 16 the problems start to arise when the police become, or 17 the Liaison Officer becomes a pipeline for the 18 politicians' views back to Incident Command, that becomes 19 a problem; would you agree with that? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 21 Downard...? 22 MR. PETER DOWNARD: We haven't heard any 23 evidence -- pardon me, we have not heard any evidence 24 that this witness has ever had any experience with -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we
2261 have to -- 2 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- police liaisons 3 being used as pipelines -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 5 again, it is the way the question is asked. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 8 there is not any evidence that that, in fact, has 9 occurred. But you were asking it in a more general way. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, with respect, 11 Mr. Commissioner, I'd like to -- that's one and I've been 12 -- I've got a very good record of withdrawing, so if -- 13 if I said -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well you do 15 have a good record of withdrawing, but you want to try to 16 put that question a little bit different? 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes, I do. This is 18 one that I need to address, so may I address you on it? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I am 20 not sure how you are going to put it. Do you want to ask 21 the question again? 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The question I'd 23 ask is: The trouble occurs in circumstances where the 24 Liaison Officer becomes a pipeline of the politicians' 25 desires to the frontline police officers.
2271 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Trouble can 2 occur, if that occurs -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's right. 4 That's right. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it 6 depends on how you put the question, that is what I mean. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And that is how I 8 put it, I think. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: But here's why I 11 want to ask it and why I say it -- it is relevant. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I am 13 not sure, the question as you are putting it now, may not 14 be objectionable, I am not sure -- 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- let us 17 wait and see. How are you putting the question? I see-- 18 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I could -- I could be 19 technical, but I'm not going to. I'm not objecting to 20 the question. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 22 an objection, Mr. Millar, you seem to? No...? 23 Do you want to try to put the question so 24 that we know what it is then? 25
2281 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 2 Q: But the problem can occur -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can occur, 4 that is fine. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 7 Q: -- when the Liaison Officer is used 8 as a pipeline to communicate the politicians' opinions to 9 the front-line officer, correct? 10 A: That would be a problem, yes. 11 Q: Would you agree with me that that is 12 one of the things that it's your job to be alive to, over 13 the course of discharging your functions? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And that that problem of being a 16 pipeline could be deliberate, in other words, someone can 17 actually plan or strategize to use you that way, correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Or alternatively, it can be by 20 happenstance and by virtue of the infrastructures in 21 place, and not necessarily deliberately, correct? 22 A: Yes, I believe I know what you're 23 looking at there. 24 Q: All right. And when you say you know 25 what I'm looking at, it's fair to say what you're saying
2291 to me is, yes, that second scenario, that can happen, 2 correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And would you agree with me, on 5 reflection, based on everything you know now, that may 6 very well have happened in this case? 7 A: I agree. 8 Q: And would you also agree that, in 9 terms of process, one of the reasons, one of the reasons 10 that the inadvertent use of the pipeline may have 11 occurred was because there was no real buffer between 12 police service on the one hand and high-ranking 13 politicians on the other? 14 A: I would agree. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: You mentioned that the Minister 19 Hodgson, and this -- this time I'm getting it right, 20 Minister Hodgson, in the September 6th, 1995 Dining Room 21 Meeting, after the Premier leaves, is critical of the 22 actions of the OPP, you said the word critical, correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Now, I take it you're not 25 suggesting that it's anymore appropriate for a Cabinet
2301 Minister versus the actual Premier, to have that kind of 2 access to the police, is it? 3 A: Our Minister, it may have been 4 proper. I didn't believe that it was proper, but the 5 Minister of Natural Resources was addressing us in that 6 fashion. 7 Q: All right. And when you say your 8 Minister may have been proper, isn't it true that your 9 note from Ms. Hunt that refers to the longstanding 10 protocol, actually also refers to the distance between 11 the Solicitor General and the Police? 12 A: That's correct, yes. 13 Q: So wouldn't you agree with me that it 14 probably would be also problematic if the Solicitor 15 General engaged in that kind of direct criticism of 16 serving police officers? 17 A: To your point of criticism, yes. 18 What I was referring to would be what would I -- would 19 consider a proper interaction between ourselves, the 20 Minister and the Deputy Minister, who would often be in 21 attendance. 22 Q: Fair enough. In -- but now back to 23 the -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- situation on September 6th, 1995.
2311 You were at that point in the 2 circumstances that you didn't feel were entirely proper, 3 or were improper, you had a Cabinet Minister in the form 4 of the Minister of Natural Resources, Mr. Hodgson, 5 criticizing the actions of the police directly to the 6 police; correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And while that was happening, as far 9 as you were concerned, in your mind, you knew that this 10 was not in keeping with any convention you were familiar 11 with? 12 A: You're correct. 13 Q: You knew this was crossing the line 14 of political interference? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And in that room, at that time, was 17 the Solicitor General; yes? 18 A: And the Deputy Solicitor General. 19 Q: Ms. Todres. And in that room at that 20 time was the Attorney General, Mr. Harnick? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the Deputy Attorney General, Mr. 23 Taman? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Ms. Hunt, was she in the room?
2321 A: Yes. 2 Q: All of the people that gave all the 3 cautions and lessons and lectures about this principle of 4 distance between the police and the politicians, all 5 watched while Minister Hodgson criticized you directly; 6 correct? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Did anyone of them intervene? 9 A: Towards the end the Deputy Attorney 10 General intervened. 11 Q: Who was that? 12 A: Larry Taman. 13 Q: And what did he say? 14 A: I don't recall what he said, but he 15 intervened and began to engage Minister Hodgson in 16 discussion. 17 Q: But would you agree with me that his 18 intervention was that form of polite steering type of 19 intervention? 20 A: Yes, it was. 21 Q: Right. It wasn't, this is wrong, you 22 can't do this; correct? 23 A: No. 24 Q: It wasn't, this is running afoul of 25 the principles we were trying to educate you on before;
2331 right? It wasn't that? 2 A: No. 3 Q: It was simply getting his attention 4 and trying to steer him away from the police officers? 5 A: That was my belief, yes. 6 Q: All right. Since that meeting, or 7 since the Cabinet Minister in question, Cabinet Minister 8 Hodgson took you officers to task in that meeting, has 9 anyone come to you and apologized on behalf of those 10 Cabinet Ministers? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Has anyone acknowledged the 13 impropriety of what took place? 14 A: No. 15 Q: That's why you and Inspector Fox were 16 upset, wasn't it? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: It was the combination of the actions 19 of the most powerful men, the Premier, and his Cabinet 20 Ministers; correct? 21 A: That was a large part of it, yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're going 23 to finish before five o'clock; right? 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I -- I have bad 25 tidings to bear. I'm not going to be finished before
2341 5:00, I tried to caution your counsel. But I've got 2 about three (3) to four (4) minutes in this area. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And then I thought 5 if we stopped here I'd have about forty-five (45) minutes 6 tomorrow morning. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you, sir. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 11 Q: The comments that are reflected by 12 Ms. Hutton, in your notes, about using the Criminal Code 13 provisions about a faster, quicker way to get them out. 14 If one were to compare the messages sent 15 to you in the early morning hours of September 6th, 1995, 16 by the voice of the Premier, and what you heard in the 17 dining room, was there any difference in the message? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 19 Downard...? 20 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I didn't see any 21 comments in the notes about using a faster, quicker way 22 to get them out. That was an interpretation that was put 23 forward in discussion. There's nothing in the notes 24 about that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, no,
2351 but it's an interpretation that the witness agreed with, 2 I think. 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, all right. So 4 long as we're at the level of interpretation and 5 argument, then that's where we are. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, let me back 7 up a step. I appreciate Mr. Downard helping me to be 8 more precise. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 12 Q: Your evidence today, not my argument 13 but your evidence today about what that note means, 14 combined with the note, spell the message the voice to 15 the Premier gave you early morning September 6th, 1995, 16 correct? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And that message was entirely 19 consistent with the message you received in the dining 20 room later that day, correct? 21 A: It was an extension of, yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: This would be a
2361 good time, Mr. Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it's 3 almost five o'clock. I think this would be a good time 4 to adjourn for the day. And we will reconvene tomorrow 5 morning at 9:00 and you estimate about forty-five (45) 6 minutes? 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's correct. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then I 9 think we should finish with the Inspector tomorrow 10 morning and move right along. 11 Thank you very much. We'll adjourn now. 12 13 (WITNESS RETIRES) 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 16 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, October 18th at 9:00 17 a.m. 18 19 --- Upon adjourning at 4:53 p.m. 20 21 Certified Correct 22 23 24 _____________________________ 25 Carol Geehan