11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 October 12th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (Np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) (np) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 Megan MacKey ) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 20 Melissa Panjer ) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 Commissioner's Ruling re Motion 6 4 5 MARLIN DOUGLAS SIMON, Resumed 6 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 25 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 229 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 --- Upon commencing at 10:30 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The first order of 11 business is the Motion and your decision with respect to 12 the Motion and then we will take a short break and 13 proceed with Mr. Simon's cross-examination. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 The Chiefs of Ontario have brought a Motion requesting 16 that I, as Commissioner of the Ipperwash Inquiry, 17 authorize and direct Commission Counsel to publically 18 release two (2) audio recordings provided to the 19 Commission by one (1) of the parties and produced by the 20 Commission to the parties as part of the Commission's 21 disclosure. 22 The Motion also requests that immediate 23 and ongoing steps be taken to ensure that any documentary 24 evidence, that is, quotes, central to the mandate of the 25 Inquiry be released to the public as soon as practicable
71 after such evidence becomes known to Commission Counsel. 2 We've also been asked to take immediate 3 and ongoing steps to publically release any and all 4 documentary evidence at the same time that it is provided 5 to the Commissioner unless Commission Counsel or a party 6 providing a particular document intends to take the 7 position that the document should never be made public. 8 In a separate and parallel Motion brought 9 by the Estate of Dudley George, and the George family 10 group, we've been asked to immediately assign an exhibit 11 number to and enter into the Inquiry public record the 12 same two (2) audio recordings. 13 And further, this Motion seeks to have me 14 authorize and direct Commission Counsel to immediately 15 make these recordings available for public release and to 16 release legal Counsel for the parties to the Inquiry from 17 their confidentiality and use undertakings in respect of 18 these audio recordings. 19 The major part of this Motion was heard in 20 public but a part of it that referred to the specific 21 content of the audio recordings was heard in-camera. 22 Both of these Motions have characterized 23 the recordings as documentary evidence that is central to 24 the mandate of the Inquiry. 25 Now, I've been appointed Commissioner to
81 conduct this Inquiry by Order in Council pursuant to 2 Section 3 of the Public Inquiries Act, the conduct of the 3 Inquiry is under the control and direction of the 4 Commissioner conducting the Inquiry. 5 I've determined, pursuant to my authority 6 under Section 3 of the Act and the Order in Council, that 7 this Inquiry will be conducted under the Inquiries Rules 8 of Procedure and Practice, and all parties to the Inquiry 9 have agreed to abide by the rules which are available on 10 our website. 11 Rule 12 of our rules provide that in the 12 ordinary course, Commission Counsel will call and 13 question witnesses who testify at the Inquiry. 14 Counsel for a party may apply to the 15 Commissioner to lead a particular witness' evidence in- 16 chief. If Counsel is granted the right to do so, 17 examination shall be confined to the normal rules 18 governing the examination of one's own witness. 19 Pursuant to Rule 17, I've granted 20 Commission Counsel, subject to my general authority over 21 the conduct of the proceedings, the discretion to refuse 22 to call or present evidence. 23 This discretion includes, by implication, 24 the discretion to call or present evidence in the order 25 and manner deemed appropriate by Commission Counsel and
91 to disclose that evidence to the public as it is put 2 before the Commission. 3 Pursuant to Rule 36, the general rule is 4 that documents are to be treated as confidential unless 5 and until they are made public. That is the purpose of 6 the confidentiality undertaking that all parties are 7 asked to sign prior to full disclosure being made. 8 The purpose of this rule is to encourage 9 comprehensive documentary production in a timely manner 10 to the Commission. As importantly, this procedure allows 11 the parties to participate fully in the proceedings and 12 properly prepare for the witnesses who will be called to 13 give evidence at the Hearing. 14 While Rule 36 does give the Commissioner 15 the power to declare that a document should not be 16 treated as confidential, in my view that power should 17 only be exercised sparingly and for the reasons outlined 18 below should not be exercised to grant the relief sought 19 in these Motions. 20 In Lyons against the City of Toronto, a 21 decision of Madam Justice Swinton, the Bellamy 22 Commission, in context of the Bellamy Commission, she set 23 out the following passage which was cited by Commissioner 24 Bellamy in her Decision. And she's quoting an article of 25 Associate Chief Justice O'Connor which appears in the
101 Advocates Society Journal. The title of it is "The Role 2 of Commission Counsel in a Public Inquiry." 3 And the quote is: 4 "It is with the assistance of 5 Commission Counsel that the 6 Commissioner carries out his or her 7 mandate investigating the subject 8 matter of the Inquiry and leading 9 evidence at the hearings. 10 Throughout, Commission Council act on 11 behalf of and under the instructions of 12 the Commissioner." 13 These Motions have requested that I 14 override the discretion I've conferred on Commission 15 Counsel with respect to the calling and public disclosure 16 of certain evidence at the Hearing -- at the Inquiry. 17 In my view it's neither necessary nor 18 appropriate to do so in these circumstances. 19 As Mr. Justice Cory noted in the Attorney 20 General Canada against the Canadian Commission of Inquiry 21 on the blood system in which he cites the Phillips v. 22 Nova Scotia Commission of Inquiry into the Westray mine 23 tragedy: 24 "One (1) of the primary functions of 25 public inquiries is fact finding and
111 investigation." 2 The investigative process of Part I 3 Hearings of this Inquiry will involve, among other 4 things, the identification of those documents that are 5 central to the mandate of the Inquiry. 6 The role of Commission Counsel is to 7 locate the documents, analyse them, put them into context 8 and then introduce them into evidence through witnesses 9 testifying at the Public Inquiry. 10 That's the process that's been followed in 11 other Inquiries and it is the process being followed in 12 this Inquiry. 13 In my view, this Inquiry is proceeding 14 exactly as it is supposed to. A great deal of 15 documentary evidence has been obtained. It is being 16 analysed and evaluated on an ongoing basis and it will be 17 presented publically at this Inquiry. 18 The hearing component of the investigative 19 process is in the early stages with only a few of the 20 many witnesses who will eventually be called having 21 testified thus far. 22 The characterization, weight, and proof of 23 any and all documentary evidence to be put before the 24 Commission will continue throughout the Proceedings and 25 will be completed by my findings, once I have heard all
121 of the evidence that will ultimately be put before the 2 Commission. 3 The Chiefs of Ontario's Motion request 4 that those documents central to the mandate of the 5 Inquiry be immediately disclosed to the public. To date, 6 tens of thousands of documents have been produced to the 7 Commission by the various parties. 8 The production process has yet to be 9 completed, with several of the parties having indicated 10 that they have further documents to produce. 11 Given the number of documents produced to 12 the Commission, the incompleteness of the documentary 13 production process by the parties, the still relatively 14 early stage of the investigation, and the lack of an 15 evidentiary or testamentary foundation for the 16 characterization or proof of such central documents, it 17 is premature for either the Commission or parties to the 18 Inquiry to identify all of those documents that will 19 ultimately be considered central to the mandate of the 20 Inquiry. 21 Furthermore, the characterisation of 22 particular documents as central to the mandate of the 23 Inquiry is, in essence, a finding as to the appropriate 24 weight that should be placed on those documents. 25 These recordings may indeed be central to
131 the mandate of the Inquiry but that is a finding that 2 should only be made at the culmination of the Inquiry 3 process after all of the evidence has been heard, rather 4 than at its inception. 5 Commission Counsel have a duty to present 6 the evidence to the Commission and public in a manner 7 that is impartial, balanced, fair, thorough and orderly. 8 It would be premature and inconsistent 9 with the duty of Commission Counsel to present evidence 10 in an impartial, balanced, fair, thorough, and orderly 11 manner to characterize any document or documents as 12 central to the mandate of the Inquiry and to disclose it 13 to the public before it has been introduced in its proper 14 context through the Hearing process. 15 In my view, Commission Counsel need to 16 retain the discretion afforded them under the rules to 17 call evidence in such a manner, order, and timing as to 18 permit the impartial, orderly, logical, fair, and 19 probative presentation of all of the evidence that will 20 ultimately be put before the Commission. 21 Commission Counsel, in accordance with 22 their duty, have determined an order of the presentation 23 of witnesses which, in their view, ensures the evidence 24 is presented logically, comprehensively and 25 understandably to both the parties and the public, as
141 follows: 2 First the expert and historical witnesses 3 who have already been called. Then, the First Nations 4 and other community witnesses and that is in progress 5 now. That will be followed by emergency medical 6 personnel and Police Officers and then civil servants and 7 politicians. 8 The need for an orderly and thoughtful 9 plan is particularly important in an Inquiry such as this 10 one with voluminous productions and numerous and complex 11 factual issues. 12 Now, having said that, the order is 13 subject to change due to the evolving nature of the 14 investigation and evidence before the Commission, the 15 availability of certain witnesses and any other 16 considerations that may affect Commission Counsel's 17 evaluation of the appropriateness of this intended order. 18 The submissions of the various Counsel in 19 this Motion, while differing in many respects, all 20 acknowledge the importance of hearing evidence in 21 context. And I am confident that Commission Counsel will 22 continue to publically disclose documentary evidence when 23 it becomes relevant to the testimony afforded by each 24 witness, or as it becomes otherwise necessary to comply 25 with the obligation of the Commission to ensure
151 procedural fairness in these Proceedings. 2 The parties to the conversation on the 3 audio recording as well as the parties mentioned in the 4 discussion will be called as witnesses. These witnesses 5 will be called in a manner and at a time to be determined 6 at the discretion of Commission Counsel and consistent 7 with the duty of Commission Council to present evidence 8 in a balanced, orderly, and logical fashion. 9 Now, Mr. Horton has proposed, among other 10 things, that Commission Counsel create a compendium of 11 key documents for use by all other parties and the 12 Commissioner, as is done in certain civil cases. 13 At first blush this proposal may appear to 14 have some merit. However, in considering this proposal 15 it's important to remember what and how a compendium is 16 used, for example, in commercial court where it was first 17 formally recognized as provided in the Commercial Court 18 Practice Direction. 19 Paragraph 17 of the Commercial Court 20 Practice Direction states as follows: 21 "In appropriate cases, to supplement 22 any required formal record, Counsel are 23 requested to consider preparing an 24 informal compendium of key materials to 25 be referred to in argument. Fair
161 extracts of documents, transcripts, 2 previous orders, authorities, et 3 cetera, to assist in focussing the case 4 for the court." 5 And the authority cited is Saskatchewan 6 Egg Producers' Marketing Board v. Ontario. 7 "Relevant portions of the compendium 8 should be highlighted or marked. 9 Counsel are urged to consult among 10 themselves in the preparation of a 11 joint compendium if possible. The 12 compendium should contain only 13 essential material, the use of a 14 looseleaf format is particularly 15 helpful to the court, both for 16 conducting hearings and for writing 17 decisions." 18 The rules of civil procedure also 19 recognize compendiums in Rule 61.10 for use on appeals. 20 The compendium forms part of the appeal book and 21 compendium and is separate from the exhibit book. It's 22 clear from reviewing Rule 61.10 that the compendium for 23 use on appeals is to serve the same purpose as the 24 commercial court compendium; that is, to assist in the 25 argument of the appeal by putting together extracts from
171 transcripts and the documents that are going to be 2 referred to during the argument of the appeal. 3 We're not close to the argument or 4 submission stage in this Inquiry and the preparation of 5 this type of compendium would not, in my view, be of any 6 assistance at this stage. 7 Mr. Horton and Mr. Klippenstein have 8 suggested that Commission Counsel create a compendium 9 which is more like a joint exhibit book of key documents 10 prepared for use at trial in many civil cases. 11 However, in a civil case counsel put 12 together an exhibit book on consent. With seventeen (17) 13 parties plus Commission Counsel the process of attempting 14 to create such an agreed upon joint exhibit book would, 15 in all likelihood, be so time consuming as to be 16 unworkable. 17 Each party would need to identity what 18 they suggest are key documents. All of the parties would 19 then have to agree on the characterization of those 20 documents as key documents to be included in an exhibit 21 book. 22 Such an exercise with two (2), three (3) 23 or even four (4) parties would take a long time and, in 24 the end, might not be successful. With seventeen (17) 25 parties, many with different interests, this process
181 could take weeks if not months. 2 Ultimately, there might be so little 3 agreement that the time would have been wasted. And 4 rather than focussing on presenting the evidence and 5 moving forward with the Inquiry, Commission Counsel would 6 be focussed on trying to achieve consensus among the 7 parties as to the documents to go into the exhibit book. 8 This exercise would ultimately greatly 9 delay the completion of this Inquiry as witnesses would 10 be deferred until this exhibit book was compiled. I do 11 not believe it is in the general public interest to 12 prolong this Inquiry by engaging in this proposed 13 exercise. 14 On the other hand, if the compendium were 15 simply composed of every document that every party 16 considered to be a key document it might not look much 17 different than the productions themselves and be of very 18 little value. 19 Mr. Horton submitted that just because 20 certain procedures have been followed in other inquiries 21 is no reason to slavishly follow them in this Inquiry. I 22 agree with that submission and we are prepared to 23 consider new or better ways of proceeding. 24 Mr. Horton acknowledged that the Osgoode 25 symposium and the forthcoming Indigenous Knowledge Forum
191 are examples of our willingness to be innovative. 2 However, to allow the Chiefs of Ontario's Motion could 3 fundamentally alter the nature of the public inquiry 4 process. 5 Now that might not have been the 6 Applicant's intention, but as one (1) Counsel noted in 7 his oral submissions opposing the Motion, and I'm 8 paraphrasing, it could result in a wholesale dumping of 9 documents into the public realm without a real 10 opportunity to evaluate their significance and before 11 they are tendered through witnesses at the Inquiry who 12 are entitled to comment upon their accuracy, their 13 reliability or to give context to them. 14 He further noted that this could 15 contribute to a process where it becomes more important 16 to argue one's case in the media rather than in the 17 Inquiry and that is not a process that I wish to 18 contribute to. 19 From the outset of this Inquiry, I have 20 asked Commission Counsel to consult with the parties 21 regarding the process to be followed by this Inquiry. 22 I am also encouraging any party who has 23 suggestions to make regarding the conduct of this Inquiry 24 to meet with Commission Counsel to discuss them. 25 Now, I know that this approach has been
201 followed in this Inquiry to date, and will continue 2 throughout the Inquiry. I value and appreciate the 3 suggestions of any party to these proceedings. 4 When it is determined that the evidence 5 and the audio recordings are sufficiently relevant 6 Commission Counsel will enter the recordings as evidence 7 and they will be made public before this Inquiry at that 8 time. 9 At the risk of being repetitive, it is 10 important for me to repeat, the audio recordings are not 11 secret. They will be introduced in this Inquiry, and 12 thereby will be made publicly available. However, in my 13 judgment, their immediate release and the other release 14 sought in this Motions is neither required nor advisable. 15 Accordingly, the Motions are dismissed. 16 I'm now going to take a short recess and 17 we will reconvene in ten (10) or fifteen (15) minutes. 18 Thank you all very much. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 20 for fifteen (15) minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 10:50 a.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 11:06 a.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
211 resumed. Please be seated. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 morning. 4 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 6 we're up to Ms. Jones. 7 8 MARLIN DOUGLAS SIMON, Resumed: 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Simon, may I remind 11 you, sir, that you are still under Oath. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Orkin, 17 you have ...? 18 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Very briefly, if I 19 may. Mr. Commissioner, I am rising to address an issue, 20 very briefly, that I think will likely arise today 21 because we've received notice that the party -- one (1) 22 of the parties apparently intends to cross-examine Mr. 23 Marlin Simon on previous convictions. 24 We believe there are quite compelling 25 grounds for the Commission to possibly exclude such
221 evidence because it's neither reliable and is 2 prejudicial. 3 Based on the Supreme Court of Canada in 4 two (2) that we have identified in Corbitt (phonetic) and 5 as applied by the Ontario Court of Appeal in a case 6 called Hutton (phonetic). 7 We are happy to make these cases available 8 to the Commission through Commission Counsel and to other 9 Counsel here today to explain our views on these cases. 10 But I need to make clear on reflection that the George 11 family and the Estate are not going to formally object 12 because our object here has never been to block out the 13 truth or to prevent the truth from coming out. 14 We have, on reflection, decided to 15 indicate that if prior convictions of native -- native 16 witnesses are going to be put on record, the George 17 Estate and Family will likely exercise its rights under 18 Section 5 of the Inquiries Act and call witnesses to the 19 Inquiry to describe the systemic criminalization of 20 aboriginal and native people in Ontario. 21 We'd be happy to answer further questions 22 but we thought for now we would alert the Commission to 23 the points that we might or may well be raising. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 Do either Commission Counsel wish to comment, at this
231 stage? 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, I think 3 that it -- if there is going to be an evidentiary 4 objection that first we ought wait for the question to be 5 asked because there may well be circumstances in which 6 criminal convictions may be relevant and germane to the 7 Inquiry. 8 And there may be circumstances in which it 9 is not. So I respectfully suggest that we wait until we 10 hear the questions. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 12 that's a good idea, Mr. Orkin. We'll wait until we hear 13 a question and then we'll deal with it at that time. 14 Ms. Jones...? 15 I'm sorry, you indicated that you wouldn't 16 object so we may not know that we're in an area that you 17 would object to; is that the point that you're making? 18 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, our 19 notice at this point was specifically with -- with 20 respect to prior convictions -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 22 that. 23 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- and we are 24 reserving but we may well, in the context of -- of this 25 evidence being raised, be compelled to put it in -- in
241 very full context. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As you're 3 aware -- 4 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: We're indicating that 5 we will, in all likelihood, not object. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Some 7 evidence of prior convictions was brought out by 8 Commission Counsel -- 9 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Right. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if I'm 11 not mistaken. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The only concern I have 13 is if there is Counsel in this Inquiry who believe that 14 certain evidence should not properly be admissible before 15 the court -- or before the tribunal, that they really 16 ought to stand and make an objection -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- so that it can be 19 properly and fairly dealt with as the evidence goes in. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 21 difficult for me to anticipate until it happens, Mr. 22 Orkin. But it's just as difficult, you can't suck and 23 blow, with all due respect to the phrase, simultaneously. 24 If there's evidence that's going in that 25 you think is going in improperly, I think you have an
251 obligation, a responsibility to object. How you deal 2 with it is your prerogative but if some questions are 3 asked which you think may elicit evidence that should not 4 be admissible, I think that you have a responsibility to 5 object. 6 When the time comes up we'll deal with the 7 situation. Ms. Jones, you're on. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just want 12 to emphasize again, Mr. Orkin, that none of us want any 13 evidence to come into this transcript that shouldn't and 14 all of us are interested in seeking the truth, I believe. 15 I know I am. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: Morning, Mr. Simon. 21 A: Good morning. 22 Q: I'm Karen Jones. I'm one (1) of the 23 lawyers for the Ontario Provincial Police Association. 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: And, Mr. Simon, I just wanted to
261 start off by getting a little bit better sense of your 2 background. I think you told the Commission earlier on 3 that you were single? 4 A: Yes, I am. 5 Q: And that you had a couple of kids? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Hayley (phonetic) and Ashlyn 8 (phonetic)? 9 A: Ashley (phonetic). 10 Q: Ashley, yeah. How old are they? 11 A: How old are they? One's seven (7) 12 and one's one (1). 13 Q: Oh, they're just little guys? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And you talked to -- to us a 16 little bit about going into Camp Ipperwash in 1993. And 17 I think that you told us that the first winter that you 18 were there, that is the winter of 1993/1994, that there 19 were a number of people that wintered over. 20 I think you told us there was Clifford 21 George? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And Dudley George? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And Dave George?
271 A: Yes. 2 Q: And Joe George? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And Glenn George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And Warren George? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you and your brother? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And you also spoke about building a 11 homestead camp for Uncle Hamster who you said was Abraham 12 George? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Did he winter over as well? 15 A: Did he winter over? No, not really. 16 No, I don't think so. 17 Q: Was he -- sorry, not -- was he there 18 that winter or when -- when did -- sorry, let me just go 19 back a little bit. When did you build the homestead camp 20 for him? 21 A: It'd be -- 22 Q: Was it -- 23 A: It was in the June of '93. 24 Q: Okay. And so was that camp so he 25 could be there in the wintertime or was the camp there so
281 he could come and go in the warmer weather? 2 A: So he could come and go in the warmer 3 weather. 4 Q: Okay. Now, I take it that you knew 5 most of, if not all of, the people who wintered over in 6 1993 before that time? 7 A: Yes, I do. 8 Q: Okay. And can you just help us with 9 a little bit in understanding how you knew the people and 10 what your background was with them? You've told us a 11 little bit about Clifford George being an Elder, would 12 you have had much contact with him prior to May of 1993? 13 A: No, not really. 14 Q: Okay. And how about Dave George? 15 A: Dave? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: He's a cousin of mine. 18 Q: Okay. Did you know him when you were 19 growing up? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. And would you have spent much 22 time with him? 23 A: Yeah. Off and on again. Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. And how about Joe George? 25 A: He's the same. Joe and Dave are
291 brothers. 2 Q: Okay. So they were both your 3 cousins? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. And how about Glenn George? 6 A: He's my uncle. 7 Q: Okay. And Warren George? 8 A: He's my cousin. 9 Q: Okay. And I think that you're -- 10 when your mom was giving evidence she talked a little bit 11 about you and I think it was you but maybe it was your 12 brother, having spent some time with Dudley when he was 13 younger playing hockey with him; was that -- was that 14 you? 15 Sorry, let me go back a little bit. 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: Were you a hockey player when you 18 were a kid? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And was Dudley a hockey player 21 when he was a kid? 22 A: When he was a kid? 23 Q: Yeah. Do you know? 24 A: I don't know. He was quite a bit 25 older than I am.
301 Q: Okay. Had you spent much time with 2 Dudley prior to 1993? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Can you help us what kind -- 5 when you would have seen Dudley or what you would have 6 done with him? 7 A: I don't know. We were always usually 8 fishing around his birthday in Moraviantown. It's a 9 reserve down on the Thames River. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And we'd usually be fishing, camped 12 out over -- all night during down there. So -- 13 Q: During -- as his birthday? 14 A: Yeah. His birthday would be right up 15 -- come around that time so we'd usually go look for him 16 and then take him camping down and fishing at the same 17 time. 18 Q: Were there other things that you did 19 with Dudley? 20 A: Yeah. Throughout the years different 21 things. 22 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you help us 23 understand what kind of things those were? 24 A: I don't know. Party with him -- 25 Q: Yeah.
311 A: -- and go fishing. Stuff like that. 2 Q: Okay. Would you have seen him a few 3 times a year or more frequently than that? 4 A: More frequently, I guess. 5 Q: Yes. Were there times where you 6 wouldn't have had much contact with Dudley? The reason 7 I'm asking that is one (1) of the things you said in your 8 evidence before was that you had moved around quite a 9 lot -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- when you were younger. So would - 12 - would -- would there have been times that you didn't 13 see Dudley at all for a while? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Yeah. And I take it when you would 16 track down Dudley around his birthday to take him 17 fishing, that would have been when you were a bit older? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Yeah. So when you were a teenager or 20 older than that? 21 A: Yeah, it would be when I was a 22 teenager. 23 Q: Okay. And we heard some evidence 24 from your Mom that at some point in time, Dudley and his 25 family had moved into town. Did you know him during that
321 time? 2 A: Whenever he moved into town? 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: No. 5 Q: No? 6 A: I was -- I don't think I was even 7 born yet. 8 Q: Okay. And you told us that -- that 9 first winter that Dudley and Warren lived together in a 10 trailer. Did anyone else live in the trailer with them 11 or was there just -- 12 A: Yes, there was -- 13 Q: -- the two (2) of them? 14 A: Me and Glenn would stay with them 15 quite a bit. 16 Q: I'm just -- it -- it's hard for us, 17 because we weren't there to try and get a sense of that 18 first winter. Did you have -- you and Glenn, did you 19 have your own places or did you live in the trailer or 20 did you come and go or how did it work? 21 A: Lived in the trailer and came and go, 22 I guess. 23 Q: Okay. Were you pretty much full time 24 at the -- in the base in the winter of 1993/94? 25 A: Yes, we were.
331 Q: So you would have been at the trailer 2 pretty much all the time? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. And Glenn would have as well? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. And I -- the -- the other 7 thing I wanted to ask you was I just had -- one (1) of 8 the things that you talked about, the first day that you 9 gave evidence, was that there was a occasion when your 10 brother had moved into a shed and the military wanted 11 your brother out. 12 And you -- I think you showed us where the 13 shed was? 14 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 15 Q: And I think you told us it was in 16 1993? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. Now one (1) of the things that 19 you had said that he had also probably had a television 20 or radio in the camp. And -- was there electricity to 21 that area? 22 A: Yes, there was. 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: I think there was. Let me think. 25
341 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I'm not sure if there was or not. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I don't recall. 6 Q: Okay. And just to help us understand 7 a little bit better how the group worked during the 8 winter of 1993 and 1994. You had told us that initially 9 there was an acting Chief in Council -- Chief and Council 10 for the people that were during -- that were doing the 11 occupation. 12 Were the -- was the Chief and the Council, 13 were they people who were staying over in the base or 14 were they people outside of that group? 15 A: They were mostly people that were in 16 there during the summer time. 17 Q: During the summer time? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And you had told us that there 20 was -- at one (1) point in time, you had an election in 21 the summer? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Okay. And you said that a Chief and 24 about six (6) Councillors were elected? 25 A: Yes.
351 Q: And can you give us -- and I think 2 you said that Carl George was the Chief for a while? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you help us 5 understand who the Councillors would have been? 6 A: I don't recall who they were. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: There was just too many of them. 9 Q: Okay. There were about six (6), you 10 said. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Yeah. And do you recall whether or 13 not they were people who lived at the base or people who 14 -- sorry who had wintered over? Were they people that 15 were just staying there in the summer? 16 A: It was mostly people that were 17 staying there in the summer. 18 Q: Okay. And did Carl George ever live 19 at the army base? 20 A: Did Carl George ever live there? 21 Q: Yeah. Was he one (1) of the people 22 that stayed in the summer? 23 A: I imagine he was -- had a little tent 24 and trailer set up there during the summer, yes. 25 Q: Okay. And I take it the other
361 Councillors would sort of do the same thing? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And you were asked if members 4 of the Chief and Council had meetings from time to time 5 with the military between 1993 and July of 1995. And you 6 said they did and that the purpose of the meetings was to 7 provide a protocol for dealing with the military and vice 8 versa and that you got reports from the Chief and the 9 Council about those meetings. 10 Can you help us understand who would have 11 been meeting with the military? 12 A: The Chief and Councillors. 13 Q: Okay. And who would -- who would 14 give you the reports back? 15 A: The Chief and Councillors. 16 Q: Yeah. And can you help us again with 17 who that would have been? I take it Carl George would 18 have -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- been one (1) of the people? Who 21 else -- who else would have been speaking to you about 22 that? 23 A: Yeah, my Uncle Glenn and probably 24 Maynard. 25 Q: That's Maynard T.?
371 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Yeah. Can you think of anybody else? 3 A: Whoever else the councillors were. 4 No, I don't -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- recall. 7 Q: Was Glenn a councillor? 8 A: Yes, I think he was. 9 Q: And was Maynard T. a councillor? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And I take it that, from your 12 knowledge, that Carl George and Glenn George and Maynard 13 T. George and any of the other councillors, none of them 14 were ever threatened or targeted by the military during 15 that period 1993 to 1995, because they were leaders of 16 your group? 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'd just ask Ms. Jones 18 to restrict her questions to within -- questions which 19 are within the knowledge of the Witness. There may be 20 evidence from the Chief and Councillors. We don't know 21 what that would be. 22 So perhaps she could just make it explicit 23 that this is to the best of his knowledge. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry, I thought I had
381 done that, Mr. Commissioner, but I'll do it again. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: To your knowledge, Carl George, Glenn 6 George, Maynard T. George, none of the Chief or 7 Councillors at that time were ever threatened or targeted 8 by the military because they were acting as leaders for 9 you? 10 A: To the best of my knowledge, I think 11 that they all were. They'd all received hate mail in the 12 -- in their mail. Like, their mail from -- they'd go and 13 pick up their mail wherever and there was these hate 14 letters that were distributed to a lot of people. 15 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you tell us 16 about that? When did the hate mail start? 17 A: It'd be around that summer, '93. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Anybody that went into the newspapers 20 or told a story about Stoney Point or anything. Anybody 21 that was in the newspapers or had their name on any kind 22 of a vehicle or anything around, they were all given this 23 hate mail. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Targeted.
391 Q: Did you ever see any of the -- of the 2 letters? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: Okay. Were they ever signed? 5 A: Yes, they were. 6 Q: Okay. Can you -- did you know who 7 had sent the letters? Or, at least, sent the letters 8 that you looked at? 9 A: No, I don't have no idea. 10 Q: Okay. Were the letters from people 11 who objected to you being in the base? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. Do you have any knowledge 14 about whether any of those letters would have come from 15 the military? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. Can -- what -- what's -- what 18 can you tell us about that? 19 A: Not too much. Just that any -- like 20 I said, if anybody had their names on vehicles that went 21 through the front gates at the army base they were -- 22 they also got mail like that too. 23 Q: Sorry, I don't understand that. If 24 anybody had -- 25 A: Had like a name on their vehicle.
401 Like, if their name was painted on their vehicle or 2 anything that had to do with going through those gates at 3 the front -- front base -- at the army base -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- you had to go through those gates, 6 they were targeted and they got these hate mail, hate 7 letters. 8 Q: Okay. And I take it from what you've 9 told us earlier that many people went through the gates? 10 You had talked at one (1) point in time, and especially 11 in the summer, that many people would come and visit, for 12 example, -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- and spend some time there? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: So, do I take from what you're saying 17 that anyone who was seen doing that could potentially be 18 the target of hate mail? 19 A: Yes, pretty much. 20 Q: Yeah. So if I -- if I understand 21 what you're saying, people who were occupying the base or 22 came and visited at the base could be the subject of hate 23 mail; is that right? 24 A: Just, I'd say, anybody that went 25 through the gates at the army base part because we come
411 along after and opened up our own gates along the 2 highway -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- where they wouldn't have to go 5 through the -- like they'd have to sign in and everything 6 else if they went through the gates at -- or the Canadian 7 Base's gates. 8 Q: Okay. And I think you've told us 9 earlier that that gate runs along Highway 21; is that 10 right? Or is it along Army Camp road? 11 A: Yes, there was a couple around 12 Highway 21. 13 Q: And is that the gate that you're 14 talking about -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- that people would enter? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Is it the gate along Army Camp 19 Road? 20 A: The gate along Army Camp Road. 21 Q: Okay. And you said in -- I'm sorry, 22 I just want to go back. To your knowledge, were Carl 23 George or Glenn George or Maynard T. George or any of the 24 other councillors every targeted or threatened by the OPP 25 because they were identified as being leaders?
421 A: To my knowledge? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: To my knowledge, I don't know -- I 4 wouldn't say they were threatened, but the OPP would go 5 and look for those people and -- like if they needed to 6 get in touch with anybody or something. 7 Q: Sure, if they had something to talk 8 about, they would go speak with them? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Sure. And you said also on September 11 28th that about the time your brother was evicted from 12 the cabin, which I think you told us was in the summer of 13 1993, you said that Maynard George was an acting chief? 14 A: Yes, I think so 15 Q: Okay. Now, can you help us, and 16 again, I'm just trying to understand how the thing worked 17 while you were there. Because I had understood and maybe 18 I understood incorrectly, that Carl George had been 19 elected chief. 20 Was -- was he the first elected chief or 21 was there someone else before him? 22 A: I think Maynard T. was the first 23 elected chief. 24 Q: Okay. And did he become the elected 25 chief in the summer of 1993?
431 A: No, I don't think so. 2 Q: Okay. When -- when did he become the 3 first elected acting -- the first elected Chief? 4 A: When? 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: Geez, I'm not too sure it would be 7 quite a few years ago. 8 Q: Sure. 9 A: It would be a few years before we 10 even went in there. 11 Q: Before you went into the base? 12 A: Yeah, before May 6th. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: A few years before that. 15 Q: And sorry, was he chief then of 16 Kettle Point and Stony Point Band? 17 A: No. 18 Q: What group would he have been the 19 chief of then? 20 A: Of Stoney Point Band, I guess. 21 Q: Okay. So prior to May of 1993, 22 Stoney Point had its own chief? 23 A: Not a federally recognized one but -- 24 Q: Right, informally you did -- 25 A: Yeah --
441 Q: -- or amongst yourselves you did -- 2 A: -- yes. 3 Q: -- I shouldn't say informally. And 4 you had your own councillors, is that right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And when the group moved into 7 the base in May of 1993, did you still keep under the 8 sort of general governance of the Stoney Point Chief and 9 Councillors or was there -- or was there a break? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: Okay. So when Carl George was the 12 chief there at the base for awhile, the elected chief, 13 was he elected by the group at the base, or was he 14 elected by Stoney Pointers, in general? 15 A: I think the voting was opened up to 16 Stoney Pointers, all the Stoney Pointers. 17 Q: Okay. And do you know whether they 18 participated in the vote? 19 A: Yeah, there was more people there 20 that voted -- 21 Q: Okay -- 22 A: -- than actually lived at the base. 23 Q: Okay. And at the same time that Carl 24 George was the elected chief, was there also a chief at 25 Stoney Point?
451 A: I don't get the question. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: I don't get the question. 4 Q: Okay. Maybe I've got this thing 5 backwards. I had understood that you held an election at 6 the base? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you had elected in the summer of 9 1993 a chief and six (6) councillors? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I guess what I'm trying to find 12 out was the chief and the six (6) councillors that you 13 elected at the base in 1993, were they the chief and the 14 councillors for the people in the base, or were they the 15 chief and councillors for all of Stoney Pointers? 16 And I guess one (1) way to think about it 17 was, at the same time, Carl George was the chief at the 18 base, was there someone else who was acting for Stoney 19 Point? 20 A: I'm not sure what you're asking me 21 here but -- 22 Q: Okay -- 23 A: To answer the first part of your 24 question -- 25 Q: Sure.
461 A: Carl George was -- was a chief for 2 all of the Stoney Point people, I guess. 3 Q: For -- for all of the Stoney Point 4 people? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: So it wasn't like there were two (2) 7 separate governance bodies, two (2) separate chiefs and 8 councillors, there were -- 9 A: Oh, yes there was. 10 Q: There was? 11 A: There was two (2). 12 Q: Okay. So the base had one (1) and 13 Stoney Pointers in general had one (1)? 14 A: No. Kettle Point had their own and 15 then -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- we had our own. 18 Q: Okay, so Kettle Point was separate 19 from Stoney Point? 20 A: Supposedly, but they are the ones 21 that get all our funding. 22 Q: Okay. And you told us that some time 23 in or about of July 1995 the sort of governance structure 24 changed at the base and you said that the heads of the 25 families then made decisions and plans.
471 Can you help us understand what happened, 2 why there was a move from having a chief and councillors 3 to moving to a set up where heads of families would be 4 making decisions? 5 A: Let's see. I think Carl George went 6 to a newspaper and denounced us, I guess, sort of. And 7 everybody that was living at the base didn't like having 8 people that didn't live there speaking for them and 9 making deals behind their backs with the military and so 10 we just pretty much went with whoever our family -- and 11 heads of family. 12 Q: Who -- with -- with the people that 13 were living there? 14 A: Yeah, with the people that were 15 living there. 16 Q: Okay. And you talked about Carl 17 George going to the media. Can you tell us what 18 happened? 19 A: No, I don't know what happened. 20 Q: Okay. Was there something in the 21 newspaper? 22 A: Yes, he did put something in the 23 newspaper. 24 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about that? 25 A: I --
481 Q: Was it saying something against -- 2 A: That's too long ago, I can't 3 remember? 4 Q: Okay. Was it saying something 5 against people being at the base? Or the way people were 6 acting at the base? 7 A: I'm not sure what it was all about. 8 Q: Okay. And then you said something 9 about people were concerned about Carl George or people 10 outside the base making deals with the military -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- behind your backs. What -- what 13 happened with that? 14 A: Just -- there were people that didn't 15 have anything to do with what was going on in the -- 16 Q: Sure. 17 A: -- occupation and... 18 Q: And what kind of deals were they 19 making with the military? 20 A: Nothing. They were just trying to -- 21 I don't know, set up protocols and stuff like that, I 22 guess. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: How to deal with us and they wouldn't 25 even come and tell us nothing about it.
491 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you -- just so 2 we understand a little bit better, can you -- can you 3 give us an example of something that happened where 4 someone outside of the base had made a deal or an 5 arrangement with the military and hadn't spoke to you 6 about it? 7 A: No, I can't. 8 Q: Okay. Is that because you don't 9 remember or 'cause you really didn't know the details? 10 A: It's just because I can't remember. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: It's too long ago. 13 Q: Okay. And do you know whether -- 14 sorry, and you talked about Carl George putting an 15 article in the paper, and I take it that after he did 16 that, that he wasn't particularly welcome back in the 17 base. 18 A: Yeah, I guess. 19 Q: Yeah. And he was no longer acting 20 chief after that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No. And do you know whether Carl 23 George agreed with the activities that were going on at 24 the base? Was that something he was concerned about? 25 A: I'm not sure, I don't know.
501 Q: Okay. And so after July of -- or in 2 or around July of 1995, when as I understand the families 3 who were living at the base took over, the making the 4 decisions and that kind of a thing -- 5 A: I'm not sure -- well, I'm not sure if 6 it was right around '95, July '95 when it happened or 7 not. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: It would be -- could have been later 10 on. 11 Q: After July of 1995? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. And would it -- could it -- 14 would it -- would it have been before you moved into the 15 Park or after you moved into the Park? 16 A: It would have been before we moved 17 into the Park. 18 Q: Okay. So it could have been in July 19 or August of 1995. 20 A: Yeah, it could even have been in the 21 winter time. 22 Q: So much earlier? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Well, I don't know. I'm not sure
511 when it -- when it switched over to that way. So I'm not 2 saying when or anything like that. 3 Q: Okay. Now, when Bonnie Bressette 4 came and gave evidence, one of the questions that she was 5 asked was that -- whether there was a person or persons 6 that could speak for the group in the Park. 7 And she said that for her, if she was 8 going to speak to someone, sort of, who was in charge, 9 she would either talk to Roderick or she would talk to 10 Glenn George. And I'm just wondering if you could help 11 us; were those two (2) people that were -- that were 12 among the decision makers or were the decision makers for 13 the group that went into the Park? 14 A: Everybody that was in there was a 15 decision maker. 16 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you help us 17 understand in July or in August of 1995 if you were a 18 person who wanted to speak to the group in the base, in 19 the built up area, was there a person or persons that you 20 would have gone to that could say something on behalf of 21 the group? 22 A: In July of 1995? 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: Persons? 25 Q: Yeah.
521 A: Well, it would have been, yeah, the 2 Chief and Council. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: Anybody in the Chief and Council. 5 Q: Okay. And who was the Chief and 6 Council in July of 1995? 7 A: I'm not sure. 8 Q: I'm sorry to make this difficult -- 9 A: I'm not sure. 10 Q: -- Mr. Simon, but it's hard for me to 11 understand how -- how the place was organized because it 12 seems that at one (1) point in time there was a fairly 13 formal structure with a Chief and the Council and after a 14 period of time there wasn't. And it -- it's hard for me 15 as someone hearing about it to understand what happened 16 and when it happened. 17 So I don't mean to take you back if you 18 don't remember or you don't know. 19 A: I don't remember. 20 Q: Okay. And you told us in September - 21 - on September 28th, that was the first day that you gave 22 evidence, that after you moved into the built-up area 23 that there were discussions between the military and the 24 families; do you remember that? 25 A: Hmm hmm.
531 Q: Okay. And can you tell us who that 2 was in the built-up area was having those discussions 3 with the military? 4 A: Who? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And then this is -- in what time 7 frame are we talking about here? 8 Q: Well, it would have been after you 9 went into the built-up area so it would have been after 10 July 29th of 1995? 11 A: Well, I was pretty much just talking 12 about July 29th when they were having discussions with 13 the military. 14 Q: Just on the day itself? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And who was having those 17 discussions on that day? 18 A: Let's see. I'm not sure. I wasn't 19 in -- I wasn't in the meeting. I didn't stop in the 20 meeting. 21 Q: I'm sorry? 22 A: I don't know. I wasn't in the 23 meeting. I was out and around snooping around the 24 buildings, I guess. 25 Q: Okay. And Ms. Vella, when she was
541 asking you some questions the first day that -- that you 2 testified, she was asking you questions about the guns 3 that you had. And I think that you told her that at some 4 point in time between May of 1993 and July of 1995 that 5 you had eight (8) to ten (10) guns. 6 You said that you had a twenty-two (22) 7 for rabbits, some shotguns and a couple of high-powered 8 rifles? 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: And I sort of added them up and I 11 came up with five (5), were -- were there some guns that 12 were missed? Can you give us, sort of, an inventory of 13 what you had? 14 A: An inventory of what I had? 15 Q: Yeah. Yeah. 16 A: I think I already did. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: It was -- 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just -- just before the 23 Witness answers that. He was examined about the types of 24 guns that he owned and it may be that the confusion is is 25 that Ms. Jones counted up five (5) types of guns but it's
551 possible that he had more than one (1) type -- 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- or more than one (1) 4 gun of the same type. 5 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 8 Q: My understanding of what you told Ms. 9 Vella, is you had a .22 for rabbits, a couple of shotguns 10 and a couple of high power rifles? 11 A: Well, I think I said I had a few 12 .22's -- 13 Q: Okay -- 14 A: -- and a couple of shotguns, a couple 15 of high power rifles. 16 Q: Okay. And had you had those guns for 17 some time before you moved onto the base? 18 A: Yeah, some of them. 19 Q: Okay. And I take it then from what 20 you said that you got some additional guns after you 21 moved onto the base? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And where -- where do you get the 24 guns from? 25 A: Gun stores.
561 Q: Is there a local gun store or would 2 you go to different places? 3 A: I would just go to different ones. 4 Q: Okay. And you told us again on 5 September 28th that you pretty much hunted all the time 6 when you were at the base day and night, and you said it 7 was easier to catch the animals at night. 8 And I take it that's because of jack- 9 lighting (phonetic), that it's easier to shoot the 10 animals at night? 11 A: Yeah I guess, depends. 12 Q: Yes. And you told us that you kept 13 your guns with you pretty much all the time and so did 14 you keep your guns at Dudley's trailer when you were 15 living in Dudley's trailer? 16 A: Did I keep my guns there? 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Yeah. And you also said when you 20 were going away and I take it that meant away from the 21 base, that you would store your guns at a friend's house 22 rather than leave them at the trailer where people could 23 come and go and get in there? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Can you tell us where you stored them
571 when you were away? 2 A: Can I tell you where I stored them? 3 Q: Yeah? 4 A: Just different places, at a friend's 5 place or my Grandmother's place. 6 Q: Okay. And was it one (1) friend that 7 you would store your guns at or more than one (1)? 8 A: More than one (1). 9 Q: Okay. And where did your friends 10 live, where you stored your guns? 11 A: Kettle Point. 12 Q: Okay. And you've talked about your 13 hunting and your guns and I take it that a number of the 14 other people who lived at the base between 1993 and 1995 15 were also hunters? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Yes. And I take it that you would 18 have gone hunting with them? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yes. And I take it that you would 21 have been out with them pretty often over those two (2) 22 years? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yeah. And can you help us understand 25 of the people that were staying at the base, who hunted?
581 We sort of went through the list of who was there and the 2 first person was Clifford George. 3 A: I'd say pretty much everybody hunted 4 except for Clifford. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Like all the older -- older people, 7 they didn't ever hunt. 8 Q: Okay. And was Clifford the only 9 older person that stayed at the base? I take it the rest 10 of you were younger? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Yeah. So everybody else then would 13 have been hunting? 14 A: Pretty much, yeah. 15 Q: Yeah. And can you -- you've talked a 16 little bit about what guns you had and I take it that you 17 would have been familiar with the guns that the other 18 people you lived with had? 19 A: I don't know -- somewhat I guess. 20 Q: Sure. It's -- it's a -- it sounds to 21 me from your evidence earlier that hunting was quite a 22 big deal? 23 A: Yeah, in some ways. 24 Q: It's an important thing to you? 25 A: Yeah that's how we got our food.
591 Q: Sure. And your guns would have been 2 important to you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I take it that you would have 5 looked at other people's guns because it would be 6 important to know what they had, as well? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Sure. So you've told us that Cliff - 9 - Clifford George didn't hunt. And I take it that he 10 didn't have any guns or did he? 11 A: No. 12 Q: No. And how about Dave George? He 13 was someone who would have hunted? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: And you would have hunted with him? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Yeah. Can you tell us what guns he 18 had? 19 A: I'm not sure. I think he might have 20 borrowed some guns. 21 Q: Did he have -- 22 A: He would -- 23 Q: -- his own gun? 24 A: Not that I really recall. 25 Q: Okay.
601 A: I don't know. 2 Q: Okay. And how about Joe George? 3 A: Beats me. I'm not sure. It's -- I 4 don't know. I usually lent people my guns whenever I'd 5 go hunting with them. 6 Q: Okay. And how about Glenn George? 7 A: Yeah, he had guns. 8 Q: And can you tell us what guns he had? 9 A: Can I tell you? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: I don't know. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: Shotguns, .22s. 14 Q: Okay. Did he have a number of guns? 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: Yeah. And how about Warren George? 17 A: I think he had a .22. 18 Q: Did he have anything else? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. And how about your brother 21 Kevin? 22 A: No. I don't think so. 23 Q: Okay. I take it from what you're 24 saying, then, that you had more guns than anybody else at 25 the base?
611 A: I don't know. Yeah, sure. I never 2 ever went right in somebody's house and asked them to 3 look at their guns or anything. It was just -- I asked 4 them if they want to go hunting, yeah, come on in, let's 5 go. 6 Q: Okay. And you talked about lending 7 your guns to people. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Who would you have lent your guns to? 10 A: Well, somebody who wanted to go 11 hunting and who never had a gun and I would just -- here 12 you go. 13 Q: And would that have been both people 14 who were living on the base and people who would come to 15 visit? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And I take it that sometimes people 18 would come to the base to meet up with you to hunt? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And they would bring guns with them 21 as well? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And sometimes would people borrow 24 their guns as well? 25 A: Yes.
621 Q: Okay. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And I take it that all of those 6 people who were at the base knew and used guns but for 7 Clifford George? 8 A: Yeah, pretty much. 9 Q: Yeah. Yeah. And I think you told us 10 in your evidence that at one (1) point in time, I think 11 you said in 1995, about the time you were in the barracks 12 that you also had semi-automatic guns? 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: Okay. And did you get those during 15 the -- that gun or guns during the time that you lived at 16 the base? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: I'm not sure. Maybe. 21 Q: Okay. And were you the only person 22 that had a semi-automatic gun or did other people have 23 them as well? 24 A: No, other people did. 25 Q: Okay. Who else had semi-automatics?
631 A: Warren and Glenn. 2 Q: So that's Warren? 3 A: Hmm? 4 Q: That's Warren George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And Glenn George? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Also had semi-automatics? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And one (1) of the documents 11 that we've reviewed in this hearing before, is a document 12 that is the statement of Scott Ewart, and I take it you 13 know him? He was the bailiff that was working with you. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And he said that on one (1) occasion 16 when he was in Dudley George's trailer, he saw a semi- 17 automatic military weapon. Did you -- did you ever see 18 that when you were in Dudley's trailer? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I didn't -- what? 22 Q: Sorry? 23 A: Pardon? I don't understand the 24 question here? 25 Q: Okay.
641 A: I see a military -- 2 Q: Okay. I take it from what you've 3 told me earlier about where you got your guns from that 4 the guns -- would you -- sorry, let me just go back a 5 little bit. 6 Would you have bought your guns new or 7 would you have bought used guns? 8 A: Both. 9 Q: Both. And wherever you were getting 10 your used guns from were there also old military guns for 11 sale in those places? 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry, just before 13 the Witness answers, I fail to see the relevancy of what 14 stores and what types of -- at least what stores the 15 Witness bought guns and whatever guns happened to be -- 16 for sale at a particular gun store at any time. I don't 17 see that that's probative to any of the issues in this 18 Inquiry. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 20 Jones...? 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 22 think one (1) of the things that is important at this 23 Inquiry, is the presence of guns, who had them, where 24 they came from and what type they were. And this is a 25 witness who obviously is interested in guns, who has
651 purchased a number over the years and also lived in the 2 trailer where Scott Ewart said he saw the semi-automatic 3 military weapon. 4 And I think it's helpful to know, whether 5 or not, the military weapons such as the semi-automatic 6 are available in general circulation, i.e., through 7 stores in the area or not. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry, this is not 12 this witnesses expertise. And with respect, I don't 13 think it's a proper question. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 15 it is either, Ms. Jones. You're using a statement -- the 16 statement that you're referring to -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to 19 present to this witness evidence that might be 20 contradictory to what he said. Is that the way you're 21 using this statement? 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, there's -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because it's 24 certainly not evidence at this point. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: No, I --
661 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we don't 2 know that witness will be called or what he may say. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. Mr. 4 Commissioner, I'm anticipating that the Commission will 5 call people with relevant evidence to the Inquiry. And 6 it appears from his statement that, Scott Ewart's 7 statement -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: -- that he certainly 10 had some relevant information that he could offer the 11 Commission. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He might 13 have. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: So he -- and so I'm 15 asking the question for two (2) reasons. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I could see 17 you asking the question for the first of the -- well -- 18 you should state the two (2) reasons first and let's see. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: In the first is because 20 what Mr. Ewart says is different than what Mr. Simon has 21 told us. And I think it's fair to put that to him and to 22 get his comment on it. 23 And the second again, Mr. Commissioner, is 24 this is a person who is familiar with guns in the area 25 and with purchasing and obtaining guns in the area. And
671 I think it's helpful to know what was available. And I'm 2 not asking him that question because he's an expert in 3 any way, shape, or form, but because he has experience in 4 the area. 5 And I think I'm entitled to ask him 6 questions about his experience. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I 8 think -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 10 noticed Mr. Ross on his feet. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I think in this 15 environment it's hard to miss me but -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 17 Ross...? 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, 19 Counsel suggested to you that this witness was saying 20 something different to Mr. Ewart and I don't think that's 21 correct. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 23 right. 24 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: This witness has made 25 his own statements.
681 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes -- 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And if she has 3 something which is different, that's up to her. But she 4 cannot say that he's saying something different because 5 he didn't write Mr. Ewart statements. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 9 that's what I sort of tweak to, that the statement is now 10 almost being used as if it were -- as if it were 11 evidence, as if it were had already been made. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, perhaps what I 13 can do, Mr. Commissioner, for these cases, is phrase it 14 that the Commission has provided us with a document that 15 says, 'x' and you know, I can say it may be that this 16 person will be called to give evidence and if he does, 17 based on the statement, I anticipate he would say 18 whatever it is. 19 And then the Witness can say, I agree, I 20 disagree, that refreshes my memory or I don't know 21 anything about it. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It seems -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: It's difficult, Mr. 24 Commissioner, to deal with this circumstance because we 25 have, as you know, thousands of documents from the
691 Commission. We have many, many statements from people 2 and it's -- in order to help understand what a witness' 3 evidence is, and how it may vary from others, it seems 4 that it's important and it's fair to put versions of 5 events to the witness about what we anticipate people 6 will say. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: For the 8 purpose of giving the Witness an opportunity to respond, 9 but you've gone beyond that. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Hmm mmm. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've gone 12 beyond that with the second reason of your two (2) 13 reasons. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: I was. I was saying 15 they -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Considerably 17 beyond. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: I was saying there were 19 two (2) reasons I was asking. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Horton's 23 on his feet now and I think we should hear him. 24 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I 25 don't mean to extend the discussion on this but it may be
701 an important point because it -- it really is the thin 2 edge of the wedge on -- on a few different things that 3 we're anticipating are going to come up based on the 4 notice that Ms. Jones has given to all Counsel. 5 And there's really two (2) points that I - 6 - I want to bring to your attention. The first is the 7 use of statements by other witnesses. 8 It is not required by the rule in Brown & 9 Dunn, and I have authorities here that I'm happy to pass 10 around, but I don't think I need to. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 12 we're going to deal with that at some point. Is this the 13 time to deal with it? 14 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: I do have some 15 authorities -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No we -- 17 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- we're prepared to 18 deal with but -- 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just if I may 20 interrupt? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 22 mind if Ms. Vella interrupted -- 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: My -- my -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you for a 25 minute?
711 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Not at all, not at 2 all. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Excuse me. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead, 5 Ms. Vella. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: My understanding of the 7 questions -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: put by Ms. Jones was 10 not to put a contrary version of events -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- to the Witness but 13 rather to ask whether or not, essentially, Dudley George 14 could have bought a military weapon from a store that Mr. 15 Simon happened to frequent. I think that that's really 16 where she was going. 17 There may well be an issue if we get to 18 the point where contrary versions of the story put 19 through third party statements, you know, arises in the 20 cross-examination and that time we -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll deal 22 with it. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- intend to deal with 24 it and I've advised Ms. Jones that we intend to deal with 25 it --
721 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 2 Horton is aware that we're going to deal with -- 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, he -- he -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that and 5 I think this issue is -- 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- would not have been 7 aware. This is a conversation I had with Ms. Jones back 8 on Thursday. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 10 keep this to the narrow point that it is at the moment. 11 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: That's excellent, 12 that's excellent Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Because my -- my 15 first point was just that we need that dealt with and, if 16 Commission Counsel has a different time for dealing with 17 it, that's fine. The only reason I rose on that was 18 because of the reference to a statement by another 19 witness -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: And that statement 22 does not refer to Mr. Simon in any way, shape or form. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 24 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: And -- so we'll deal 25 with that --
731 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 2 to deal with that -- 3 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- later. I'm fine 4 with -- I'm fine with waiting -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Yes. 6 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- until the moment 7 is right for that. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 9 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: The second point I 10 wanted to make, though, is this; Ms. Jones says, in a 11 very sweeping way, the presence of guns at the Camp is 12 relevant. 13 Now I understand that evidence has been 14 led with respect to that and a certain amount of cross- 15 examination is necessary, but it has to be proportionate 16 to the relevance. 17 And at this point, we have no idea why Ms. 18 Jones exactly thinks that the presence of guns at the 19 Camp is relevant. 20 There's been no basis laid for any 21 particular level of concern regarding the presence of 22 guns in the Camp with respect to the incidents in 23 question. And I just make the point that if the OPP's 24 position is that they were concerned about guns -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In the Camp.
741 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- the presence of 2 guns in the Camp, or later on when we get to the Park, 3 then I think it is important that we have, before the 4 Commission, the documents that set out exactly what the 5 OPP's concerns were at the time. 6 Not after the fact, not going back and 7 re-writing history about what the concerns were, or why 8 the OPP did what they did. Let's have the 9 contemporaneous record with respect to OPP concerns put 10 before the Commission as a whole and then it's fair to 11 ask witnesses questions that relate to those concerns and 12 whether or not those concerns were justified. 13 But at this point, there's no evidentiary 14 basis for it. And so therefore I submit that until we 15 have an evidentiary basis, there should be very limited 16 questioning with respect to the presence of guns. And it 17 should really only be of a general information at a very 18 general information level, rather than going into the -- 19 the kinds of specifics that we're going into with each of 20 these witnesses. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, 22 do you have another way to put this question so that it's 23 a general question that is appropriate in these 24 circumstances. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. Commissioner,
751 I hope I can put the question in a way that's general in 2 nature and is appropriate to the circumstances. 3 I just wanted to comment though, briefly, 4 on Mr. Horton's statement that somehow the evidence 5 should be circumscribed that you hear and your consider. 6 And one (1) of the ways that it should be circumscribed 7 or narrow is based on what the OPP's concerns were at the 8 time. 9 And, Mr. Commissioner, I'd just indicate a 10 few things. One (1) is that I represent the OPPA not the 11 OPP. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I'm 13 aware of that. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: In terms of the 15 documents and other material that the OPP has, I 16 understand that it has made disclosure to you and you 17 have provided it to the parties. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Or at least a goodly 20 portion of it. And so all of the parties have the 21 information that the OPP had at the time. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I know. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: And has after. And, 24 Mr. Commissioner, it is not, in my submission, 25 appropriate for you to hear evidence only that would have
761 been available to one (1) party to this proceeding at the 2 time that certain events occurred, because you're here to 3 look at the circumstances surrounding the death of Dudley 4 George. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's why I 6 suggested -- we come back to you asking the question that 7 you originally asked in a way that -- we're way off on 8 other areas, that could be important, probably will be 9 important. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But I would 12 like to try to deal with them as and when they come up. 13 And that's an issue that's not on the table at the 14 moment. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: That's right. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It may well 17 be. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But at the 20 moment you've asked a question about -- 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 23 the question there because I think with a slight 24 adjustment it's not an improper question, in my view, 25 with a slight adjustment.
771 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 4 Q: Mr. Simon, I hope that this is the 5 right adjustment to the question. I'm sorry to have you 6 sitting there while we go back and forth. It's hard 7 enough to be in the stand, let alone while you wait for 8 people. 9 When you purchase guns from stores in the 10 area do -- can you help us in understanding whether or 11 not military guns would have been available at those 12 stores? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 14 that's a fair question to ask this witness. He can 15 answer it or not. 16 THE WITNESS: Let's see. With the proper 17 licenses, yeah, you can probably buy them at these 18 stores. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd move on 21 now. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. I intend to 23 move on. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
781 Q: And can you tell us whether or not, 2 between 1993 and 1995, I think you've told us that you 3 and other people had semi-automatic weapons; did anyone 4 have automatic weapons? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. Were there any handguns? Were 7 there any guns with scopes on them? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And who had guns with scopes 10 on them? I think you'd told us earlier you had some? 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Just for the record, 12 please, Mr. Commissioner, I think that when the questions 13 were asked whether or not there were any handguns I saw a 14 shaking of the head -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps it 16 didn't get picked up. I didn't hear it either. I assume 17 that he said something I didn't hear. 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I think -- I think he 19 meant no. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There was a 21 negative answer to that; right? 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: A negative answer. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was 24 writing. I didn't see the head shaking but I assume 25 that's what it was.
791 When the question was asked about whether 2 or not there were any handguns I assume you gave a 3 negative response? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. You 6 mean, no, no handguns? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, a negative 8 response. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then you 10 asked -- and then you asked a question about guns with 11 scopes and he said he had one (1). 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: Sorry, Mr. Simon, I'll go back to my 15 question. I think you told us in your evidence that you 16 had a gun or guns with scopes on them? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: Yeah. And did other people who were 19 at the base have guns with scopes on them? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yes. And can you tell us who -- who 22 had guns with scopes? 23 A: I don't know. Glenn. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I know Glenn did. I don't know. I
801 don't know who else had guns with scopes on them. 2 Q: Okay. It could have been more? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: A lot of people that come -- come 6 hunting come, like, people that would come visiting and 7 come hunting they would brings guns with scopes on them 8 too. 9 Q: Sure. And one (1) of the things that 10 we've heard a little bit earlier, is we've heard some 11 discussion about a Cooey rifle. 12 Do you know, whether or not, any of the 13 people at the base had a Cooey rifle? 14 A: I think Glen had one (1), it was a 15 Cooey 64, .22 semi-automatic. 16 Q: Okay. And did Glen have more guns in 17 addition to that one? 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: Can you tell us what he had? 20 A: I don't know. I know he had a .22 21 magnum -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- I got arrested with and got taken 24 to jail once. 25 Q: That was -- was that after September
811 of 1995 or before? 2 A: Yes -- 3 Q: After -- 4 A: -- it was after. 5 Q: And that was the incident where you 6 were -- sorry -- we can get to that later. Okay. And 7 did you ever see any sawed-off shotguns at the base? 8 A: Sawed-off shotguns? 9 Q: Yeah? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I have a shotgun with a slug barrel 13 on it and it could be -- like -- or I had a shotgun with 14 a slug barrel on it, it would look like a sawed off 15 shotgun. 16 Q: And I think as, Ms. Vella, indicated 17 to you when she was asking your questions before, we may 18 not be particularly familiar with some of the language 19 about guns and how you describe guns. 20 Can you -- can you describe the gun to me? 21 I'm not -- I didn't understand -- you saw it was a snug - 22 A: A slug barrel. 23 Q: A slug barrel. And what's a slug 24 barrel? 25 A: It's a single projectile fired from a
821 shotgun shell. A slug. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And the slug barrels have rifled 4 grooves on them so that it gets the slug is spinning and 5 it fires straighter longer. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And the barrel that I had on my 8 shotgun would have looked shorter than a regular barrel, 9 so it would look like it would have been sawed off. 10 Q: Okay. And you told the Commissioner 11 on September 28th that on an occasion your tires had been 12 slashed when you were at the base. 13 And you said that you lit up a bunch of 14 flares so that people who were around the trailer could 15 see if anyone was coming, do you remember that? 16 A: Yeah, I went to the next camp over 17 from my camp -- 18 Q: Right -- 19 A: -- and alerted the people that there 20 were people running around flattening tires and playing 21 games in the middle of the night. 22 Q: Sure. And can you tell us what kind 23 of flares did you have? 24 A: Just road flares. 25 Q: Pardon me?
831 A: Road flares. 2 Q: Okay. And were they -- did you keep 3 flares on hand? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And can you give us some idea 6 about how many you'd keep on hand at any time? 7 A: A case, couple of cases. 8 Q: Okay. And did other people keep 9 flares, as well? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And why do you have flares, a 12 case or a couple of cases of flares? 13 A: Why? 14 Q: Yeah? 15 A: Just for reasons just like that. We 16 were always catching military personnel sneaking up and 17 running around in our backyards and stuff, so whenever we 18 did, we'd just light up a flare and position it so that 19 we could keep an eye on -- if anybody was coming or going 20 from our camps. 21 Q: Okay. Would that also scare them 22 off? 23 A: Well, yeah they wouldn't feel like 24 coming in where it's all lit up. 25 Q: Okay. And you told the Commissioner
841 on September 28th that in July and August of 1993, when 2 the helicopter was flying over the base, you said that 3 you'd shine a big spotlight on it? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And I think you told us you 6 personally shone the spotlight, is that right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And was it your spotlight or 9 was it somebody else's? 10 A: I'm not sure. It could have been 11 mine, could have been somebody else's. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Like there was more than one (1) 14 time. 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: There was more than one (1) time. 17 Q: There was more than one (1) time when 18 the spotlight was used? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And did you have more than one 21 (1) spotlight? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And what did you use the 24 spotlights for? Why would you have spotlights at the 25 base?
851 A: For security reasons. 2 Q: Okay. Can you help us understand how 3 you would use them for security reasons? 4 A: We'd hear something in the bush and 5 we'd go right round and check it out with our trucks and 6 we'd -- we'd use a big powerful spotlight and look in the 7 bush and if we'd seen somebody sitting in the bush we'd 8 go and -- 9 Q: Spotlight them? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. And did those spotlights run 12 off batteries or -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yeah. And I take it from what you're 15 saying there were a number of spotlights that you used at 16 the base? 17 A: Yeah, I think everybody -- every camp 18 had a spotlight. 19 Q: Okay. And you told Ms. Vella in the 20 course of her questions for you that one (1) of the 21 things that you also used to do and I had understood you 22 did it while you were at the base, but maybe you can help 23 me with that, was that you would carry baseball bats or 24 other things around in your trunk or in your vehicles? 25 A: Yes.
861 Q: Did I get that right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yeah. And was -- and that was 4 something that you did? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that was something that other 7 people at the base did? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And why did you do that? 10 A: There had been instances where I'd 11 been jumped by people like -- I don't know. I guess I -- 12 I was calling them rednecks. But I'd been surrounded and 13 jumped by people and had to fight my way out a few times. 14 Q: Okay. And did that happen on the 15 base or off the base. 16 A: On the base. 17 Q: On the base. Okay. And when you 18 call them "rednecks" do you know whether or not they were 19 people who were visiting the base or who lived on the 20 base? 21 A: They were people who were camping in 22 the Park and then there was other ones that would just 23 come down and look for a fight. 24 Q: They would come down -- 25 A: Looking for fights --
871 Q: from the -- 2 A: -- yeah. 3 Q: -- from the Park? 4 A: Yeah, they'd come over from the Park 5 looking for fights or some people would be drinking 6 around Grand Bend or a bar somewhere and then they would 7 just stop and look for a fight on the way home. 8 Q: Okay. And were they people -- when 9 you say that they were people from Grand Bend or whatever 10 who had been drinking who would come by, would they get 11 access to the base through one (1) of the military gates 12 or would they get access to the base through the Park? 13 Do you know? 14 I am happy to ask him if he knows. Sure. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 16 would be the first question -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and then 19 how did they get access. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Well, sometimes -- well we'd know 24 that they were from the Park because sometimes they'd 25 close off Matheson Drive and then if that was closed off,
881 that was the only way they could get in was through the 2 Park. 3 Q: Okay. When you say -- 4 A: And then other times they would come 5 through, they would come in through Matheson Drive or 6 whatever. 7 Q: Okay. When you say they came in 8 through Matheson Drive, I take it that's the roadway 9 that's you get -- that's outside of the military base? 10 A: It's in between the military base and 11 the Provincial Park. 12 Q: Right. And I take it that if you go 13 into Matheson Drive and you're driving east on it, that 14 you could then get access to the base, there -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- would be entry points -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. So there were -- that was one 19 (1) place that people could essentially either go through 20 the Park or just beside the point -- the Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And get access to the base. And I 23 take it on Matheson Drive that there was no army gate? 24 A: No manned gate. 25 Q: No manned gate, right.
891 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I just wanted to add that the OPP and 4 the Park officials usually had a sentry at the -- right 5 along the beach in between -- in between the military 6 base and the Provincial Park. 7 Q: Oh, well let me understand that. Was 8 that -- there -- when you said "the OPP and the MNR"? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: The Park people? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did they usually have one (1) 13 person all the time or just sometimes? 14 A: On the evenings. 15 Q: On evenings? 16 A: Yes. During the night. All night 17 there would be a police officer or MNR guy standing there 18 all night. 19 Q: Okay. And would that happen in the 20 summer or would that happen -- 21 A: Yeah, it happened in the summer. 22 Q: -- when the park was open? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: But it wouldn't happen all year 25 round?
901 A: No. 2 Q: No. And was that happening in 1993? 3 A: Yes, it was. 4 Q: In 1994? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And in '95? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And where would that either OPP or 9 MNR person be? 10 A: He'd be right on a -- right on the 11 beach pretty much. Right at the end of the fence line of 12 the park. 13 Q: Okay. We've seen a few pictures of 14 the park and we know that there's, sort of, a east side 15 of the beach and the west side of the beach, can you help 16 us understand where the person would be? 17 Would they be on the west side; that is 18 the side closest to Army Camp Road or would they be on 19 the east side? 20 A: They'd be on the east side. 21 Q: The east side. So that was the area 22 between the park and the base, again? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And was there an area like a 25 booth or something that they stayed in or --
911 A: No. 2 Q: No. They would just stand there? 3 Okay. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I take it from what you said 6 earlier about people camping in the Park or other people 7 coming in through or around the Park looking for fights, 8 can you give us some idea, would that happen frequently, 9 maybe -- sorry -- 10 A: Couple of times a month, I'd say. 11 Q: -- let me just go back a little. 12 Pardon me? 13 A: A couple of times a month anyway. 14 Q: Okay. During the summertime? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yeah, during the summertime. And I 17 take it sometimes when that happened there would be a 18 group of you involved in fighting together against the 19 rednecks or the people that had come in? 20 A: A group of us? 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: If we were lucky. 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: Not -- 25 Q: I take it from what you're saying
921 that there were times when you felt it was dangerous for 2 you on the base? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: That there were things you needed to 5 defend yourself against? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I also take it that you would 8 look out for the other people, the other occupiers of the 9 base? 10 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 11 Q: And they would look out for you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And if you were in trouble they'd 14 help you out? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And if they were in trouble, you'd 17 help them out? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you would really make a point to 20 do that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I take it you could trust them to 23 look out for you and help you defend yourself if need be? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And similarly, they could count on
931 you? 2 A: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm just 4 going to ask you, how close you might be because I'm 5 thinking about adjourning for lunch? 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, this would be -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know it's 8 a bit early I'm -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: This would be a grand 10 time to adjourn for lunch. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This would 12 be a grand time. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I suggest 15 that we adjourn for lunch. How long do we need because - 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: About twenty (20) to 17 1:00 perhaps -- or twenty (20) to 2:00 perhaps or ten 18 (10) to would be an hour and a half. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's say a 20 quarter to, would that be all right? 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Quarter to. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 23 adjourn now for lunch until quarter to 2:00. Thank you 24 very much. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands
941 adjourned until a quarter to 2:00. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 12:22 p.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 1:45 p.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 10 Q: Now, Mr. Simon, I just wanted to get 11 you to help us understand a little bit more about the 12 base and what went on there between 1993 and 1995. 13 And one of the things that I wanted to ask 14 you was about the vehicles that you had in the base; you 15 and other people. I think you told us that you had a 16 LeSabre? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And did other people there have cars 19 as well? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Can you tell us what cars there were 22 in the base? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. One -- one of the things that 25 we've heard a little bit about before and you told us was
951 -- is about a car that had "OPP WHO" on it? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Yeah. Can you tell us whose car that 4 was? 5 A: I think it was Robert's. 6 Q: Robert George? 7 A: Robert Isaac. 8 Q: Robert Isaac? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And was that a vehicle that 11 stayed mostly in the base in the built up area? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. And I take it that there were 14 a number of cars that were used strictly on the base or 15 the built up area or the park? 16 A: Yes there were. 17 Q: So they wouldn't have been licensed 18 to go on the -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- public roads? Okay. And you also 21 told us a little bit earlier about a dump truck -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- and can you tell us whose dump 24 truck that was? 25 A: It's my uncle's.
961 Q: And which uncle is that? 2 A: Warren. 3 Q: Warren George? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And was that a truck that was 6 licensed for the road or was that one that stayed in the 7 base in the built up area in the park, if you know? 8 A: I'm not sure. I think it was -- was 9 for the road. 10 Q: Okay. And did he have that in the 11 base during 1993 and 1994; if you know? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Yes, he did. 15 Q: Okay. And was he someone who stayed 16 in the park during the -- sorry, in the base during the 17 summers? 18 A: No, not really. But his sons were-- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- in the base quite a bit. 21 Q: Okay. And did they keep the dump 22 truck with them? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. And you've also told us a 25 little bit about a bus?
971 A: Yes. 2 Q: And whose bus was that? 3 A: The same uncle. 4 Q: Okay. Robert Isaac? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Warren. 7 A: Warren. 8 Q: Sorry, Warren? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. I'm sorry. And was that bus 11 licensed to go on the road, do you -- 12 A: No. 13 Q: -- know or -- no. It was just used 14 in the base and the built up area? 15 A: I think they got like a temporary 16 permit on it so they could drive it down here. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Drive it down to the base and then 19 that was it. 20 Q: Okay. And when -- when did the bus 21 first come to the base, do you remember? 22 A: It would have been in '93 sometime. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Yeah, it was May '93 I think. 25 Q: Okay. And I take it from what you've
981 told us that different people would drive the cars on the 2 base in the built up area from time to time? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You could sort of share the cars? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I take it Dudley would also 7 borrow cars from time to time? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. And he could drive? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yeah. Now, I wanted to bring you up 12 to July of 1995, which is the month during which you 13 entered the built up area, okay? 14 And I just wanted to ask you a little bit 15 about the background of going into the built up area. 16 And one (1) of the documents that the Commission has 17 distributed is a notice from John Carson who's an OPP 18 officer and for the assistance of Counsel, that's 19 Document Number 1001096. 20 And according to that document, the 21 Federal Minister of Finance had announced in the spring 22 of 1994 that the military base would be returned to the 23 First Nations people. 24 Did you know in 1994 or 1995 whether the 25 government was going to turn the base to the First
991 Nations people? 2 A: Did I know this? 3 Q: Yeah, was that any information that 4 you had? 5 A: Let's see. Yeah, but we would have 6 just figured that they're going to drag their feet on for 7 as long as they could so -- they've been saying that 8 they're going to give it back for I don't know how long. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And they were always promising to 11 enter negotiations to give back the land but they never, 12 ever did. 13 Q: Okay. And I take it that that was a 14 frustrating thing for you and for other people? 15 A: Sure. 16 Q: Sure. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And there's an interview of John 21 Carson, and for the assistance of Counsel that is Inquiry 22 Document 2002263, and at page 6 of that interview -- and 23 just so you understand, Mr. Simon, one of the things that 24 has happened is that a number of people have given 25 statements and have writ -- or have written out
1001 statements about their experience at Ipperwash and what 2 they observed and what they saw. 3 And John Carson we'll hear from later on, 4 but he was an acting Superintendent for the OPP and he 5 gave a taped interview and he told the interviewer about 6 what his experience was at Ipperwash. 7 And I just wanted to ask you whether or 8 not his recollections of a period of time are the same or 9 similar as yours, and if they are you can tell me and if 10 they're not, then it'll be helpful to hear about that. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, I'm 12 raising concern with respect to this line of questioning. 13 My Friends at the OPPA have provided us with a voluminous 14 number of documents. 15 Primarily they are third party statements 16 and I'm only concerned here with the third party 17 statements not the photographs and other documentation. 18 My concern is -- is not with respect to 19 the general topic or areas of examination that I 20 anticipate Ms. Jones will be asking about, but rather 21 with respect to the mode of cross-examination, and that 22 is whether this is a proper use of third party 23 statements. 24 My Friends have, in the past, relied on 25 Brown and Dunn to justify putting third-party statements
1011 to the witnesses, and with respect, I believe that Mr. 2 Roland has overstated the propositions to be garnered 3 from Brown and Dunn. 4 The Supreme Court of Canada has held that 5 there is no absolute rule of evidence established by 6 Brown and Dunn, in the case of Palmer versus The Queen. 7 Brown and Dunn does not require 8 contradictory evidence to always be put to the witness in 9 cross- examination. Rather, it establishes a general 10 proposition of practice that safeguards the interests of 11 the witness whose credibility may be impeached. 12 The purpose of putting contradictory 13 evidence to the witness is to preserve fairness to the 14 witness, to allow the witness to explain an apparent 15 inconsistency. Not surprisingly, this principle from 16 Brown and Dunn has been most stringently applied where 17 Counsel intends to impeach a witness on prior 18 inconsistent statements, as opposed to general 19 contradictory evidence at large. 20 What My Friend proposes to do with these 21 third party statements is put evidence at large which may 22 be contrary to the version of events which this witness 23 has already deposed to. 24 The Courts have held that provided that 25 the witness is generally apprized of the fact that his
1021 credibility may be in issue and that the issue and 2 matter, being in this case, whether or not there were 3 guns in the park, as long as the witness has general 4 notice of this, then he cannot said to be ambushed by the 5 fact that there may be other witnesses who come forward 6 who say different things. 7 And I have no doubt that Mr. Ross' clients 8 are aware of both of these issues. Indeed, My Friend Ms. 9 Tuck-Jackson from the OPP, quite properly cross-examined 10 Mr. Simon with respect to the issue of the number of 11 bullet casings found versus the number of bullet casings 12 turned in -- and quite properly restricted her cross- 13 examination to his knowledge of the events, not to 14 someone else's. 15 The Courts have indicated that the trial 16 Judge has the discretion as to whether or not 17 contradictory evidence must be put to witness to ensure 18 that the witness or adverse party not be ambushed in 19 closing submissions. 20 This is not a risk in this case, given the 21 scope of the examination in-chief of this witness, the 22 broad documentary disclosure revealing possible 23 contradictory version of events with respect to guns and 24 gun shots. 25 This must be contrasted with the notion of
1031 judicial economy. There is nothing, in my submission, to 2 be added or gained by mechanically putting third party 3 statements to this witness where the statements were not 4 made by him, were not verified by him, do not refer to 5 him, and in no way directly implicate him. 6 Indeed it may be unfair to the witness to 7 have him sit through each statement only to say what he 8 must, that is, that he cannot comment on the content of 9 those statements because he has no knowledge of those 10 statements. 11 It is quite proper to put to him that 12 there may be evidence which suggests, contrary to his 13 testimony, that there were, for example, gunshots heard 14 in the park and to seek his explanation. 15 However, you will recall that that was put 16 to him in examination for chief and he provided an 17 explanation in the form of fireworks. 18 It is also appropriate for a cross- 19 examiner to challenge the witness as to the perceptions 20 and the assumptions underlying those perceptions with 21 respect to this observation evidence. 22 But one cannot do this properly through 23 third party statements of individuals who are unknown to 24 the witness; that process would consume an inordinate 25 amount of time with little or no gain, in terms of
1041 advancing the investigative role of this Inquiry. 2 Again, I emphasize the difference between 3 putting a prior inconsistent statement to the witness, 4 that is a statement that he made or is attributed to him 5 which is differing from his present testimony and which 6 requires a more rigid approach to Brown and Dunn as 7 opposed to putting evidence at large which may be 8 contradictory to the witness' version of events. 9 Indeed, the courts in this province have 10 recognized that there is a more flexible approach to 11 Brown and Dunn with respect to civil matters and, indeed, 12 that administrative tribunals are more analogous to the 13 civil application of this principle than criminal cases. 14 We understand that the OPPA's book of 15 documents, which is two (2) volumes and consists of 16 multiple tabs, is to be put to all of the aboriginal 17 witnesses who were in the park. To do this will unduly 18 lengthen the duration of this Inquiry and is not needed 19 to ensure the fairness to this witness. 20 If the OPPA wishes to have the deponents 21 of the third party statements put into evidence directly 22 then they have their remedies under our rules by 23 requesting Commission Counsel to call those witnesses and 24 if Commission Counsel declines, they can make an 25 application before you.
1051 Hence, on that basis, I object to the 2 cross-examination of this witness on the contents of 3 third party statements. 4 I might also add, and I would be remiss if 5 I didn't add, that there were some documents tendered by 6 Ms. Jones at about 4:41 on Friday afternoon. 7 I just wish to remind counsel that Rule 38 8 requires twenty-four (24) hours notice minimum where a 9 counsel in cross-examination intends to put a document to 10 the -- to the witness which has not already been adduced 11 through chief. 12 Now, I'm not raising a technical 13 objection, but again, that is a safeguard which does 14 ensure the fairness to the witness and also for the 15 economy of our proceedings, if we give documents at the 16 last minute to witnesses then they will have to interrupt 17 their cross-examination to read them. 18 So that is only a caution, that is not the 19 basis of my -- my objection. I wish to remind everyone 20 this is not -- this is not a trial. This is a public 21 inquiry and as such this is not an adversarial process 22 within that meaning commonly used in trial proceedings. 23 It is an investigative process and I 24 encourage counsel to abide by the rules in that respect. 25 And those are my submissions. Thank you.
1061 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much, Ms. Vella. 3 Before I hear from you, Ms. Jones, other 4 counsel may wish to speak to this and I think I should 5 hear them first and then you can -- unless you are going 6 to -- are you going to change your position at this 7 point, because if you are there's no need to go into a 8 long song and dance with other counsel? 9 But if you're not, then I think other 10 counsel should be heard. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. Commissioner, 12 I'm happy for other counsel to be heard. I believe that 13 Ms. Vella either misunderstands or has spoken too quickly 14 about what my intentions are with -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: With this 16 statement with this witness but -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: With this statement 18 with this witness and, in general terms, about the book 19 of documents that the OPPA has put together and has put 20 people on notice. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it not 22 your intention to examine each witness with those 23 statements? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I had 25 explained to your counsel earlier that one of the things
1071 that's very difficult for us, and I'm sure for every 2 party to this Inquiry, is to try and anticipate what 3 issues are going to arise with each witness. 4 And out of fairness and to try and make 5 sure that we are in compliance with the rules, which is 6 to disclose to other parties the documents that we may 7 rely on in cross-examination, what we've tried to do is 8 anticipate a variety of areas that may arise so that we 9 have given notice of the documents. 10 Ms. Vella was inaccurate. The OPPA has no 11 intention of taking every witness who was at the park 12 through every document that we have put you on notice of 13 for Mr. Simon. 14 But what we hope to do in providing as 15 comprehensive a list as we could, is that if certain 16 issues arose we would be able to refer to documents that 17 are relevant to that. 18 So the initial fear about taking this 19 witness through every document in the binders is 20 unfounded and it is not and has never been our intention 21 to do that. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: So -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before
1081 you go -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do any other 4 Counsel wish to be heard at this point or should we wait 5 and see where we go, for other objections may be made? 6 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I'm 7 just concerned that we've got objection creep that's 8 going to go on here where we're never quite sure when the 9 moment is right to -- to make the objection with respect 10 to the use of these statements. And I would like to 11 support Commission Counsel in her decision that this was 12 the right moment to address the issue about the use of 13 statements of other witnesses. 14 And I just have some very brief 15 submissions and I think it would be more economical if I 16 made them now because they're complementary what to -- 17 what Commission Counsel has said. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 19 should hear you now. 20 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: So I'll just 21 complete the thoughts that have been expressed. And so 22 the first point that I want to make is I just want to 23 agree with Commission Counsel's position on the so-called 24 rule in Brown & Dunn and I do want to hand to you, 25 Commissioner -- I have copies for other Counsel, an
1091 extract from Professor Mewett's book on evidence which 2 has one (1) of the most thorough considerations of the 3 rule in Brown & Dunn and makes it clar that, in his view 4 there, it's questionable whether there is a rule. 5 And I'm not going to go -- take you 6 through it, sir, so don't worry about that. But I -- I 7 do want to just make the point that first of all it's 8 questionable whether there is a rule. 9 If there is a rule, it's a question of 10 fairness to the Witness. It is not an opportunity for 11 Counsel to put in all the other evidence that they hope 12 to lead or hope will emerge in the course of the trial. 13 And when we're talking fairness to the 14 Witness, we're talking exactly as Ms. Vella put it, does 15 it refer to the Witness? Is it something the Witness is 16 expected to know something about in a -- in a direct 17 sense and, if not, then it's fair enough to the Witness 18 just to put him on notice about the general subject 19 matter. 20 This witness knows without any difficulty 21 what he's being cross-examined about without having to be 22 told that Inspector Carson made a statement on roughly 23 the same topic at some given point in time. 24 I won't say any more about the rule in 25 Brown & Dunn other than that because I think you have
1101 enough material in front of you, but I want to say 2 something else. 3 We have been given a long list of 4 documents that are in the nature of statements that have 5 been given by other witnesses in other proceedings, 6 documents that have been generated by other 7 investigations and by putting us on notice, Ms. Jones has 8 told us in advance that these are documents that she 9 expects to put to witnesses and have, presumably, 10 admitted to evidence. 11 Now, I'm not taking from that the -- that 12 she intends to put every of -- one (1) of these documents 13 to every one (1) of these witnesses, but I make the 14 point, every one (1)of these documents is covered by the 15 confidentiality agreement. 16 Every one (1) of these documents is in the 17 same position as the audio tapes that we talked about in 18 our Motion. 19 With respect to each one (1) of these 20 documents, there's no evidentiary foundation been laid. 21 Take this particular statement, for example. We don't 22 know when Mr. Carson is going to be called -- Inspector 23 Carson is going to be called. 24 We don't know when the person who 25 interviewed him is going to be called. We don't know
1111 what the context of that is. 2 So, essentially, by putting a document to 3 this witness, he had nothing to do with it. He's not 4 mentioned in it. All that's happening here, let's be 5 very clear about it, is the Inquiry itself is being used 6 as a way to cherry pick the documents that will be put 7 into the public domain at an early stage. 8 And that's where, I think, the fairness 9 really does come in. Because if it does happen that way, 10 then there has to be some way of allowing balancing 11 documents -- and I don't mean to re-argue the Motion -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 13 understand. 14 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: But this was -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 16 your point. 17 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: This was the essence 18 of the point. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 20 right. 21 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: That you were trying 22 to bring forward. And if -- if essentially the Witness 23 is just going to be used as a colourable excuse to put 24 documents in the public domain, let's dispense with the 25 witnesses and let's put the relevant documents that we
1121 all want in the public -- I'm not re-arguing the Motion 2 but that's where it leads. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 4 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: And -- and in 5 fairness, what I think should happen is witnesses should 6 be examined on the matters on which they can be expected 7 to know something and other documents should await their 8 proper turn. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It seems 10 like a reasonable position to put. 11 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: I thought you might 12 think so, Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, Ms. 14 Jones, does anybody wish to be heard on this objection 15 before we call on Ms. Jones? 16 Yes, Mr. Ross? 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, it 18 appears to me that if we're going to talk about fairness, 19 then Counsel who is examining should recognize also if 20 she wants to talk about Carson that there are certain 21 tapes and other information which the Commission decided 22 would be inappropriate to release at this time. 23 And things like the Carson statement 24 cannot be read in isolation, it has to be looked at with 25 respect to the tapes and so on that we're not now
1131 releasing. And because of that, I think that she cannot 2 be half fair to the witness. 3 And further I will suggest that in all 4 probability we will not be able to be finished this 5 witness this week even if we had full-time for sittings, 6 if this is the approach that she is going to be taking 7 with all of these, for the time being, extraneous 8 documents. 9 Because I will have to get up and I'll 10 just keep objecting as far as any of these documents are 11 concerned. He didn't create them, he didn't know about 12 them. And even if he were to be given the documents and 13 said go in a room and we're going to talk about them when 14 you come out, it will still be inappropriate. 15 What he's here to give is his direct 16 evidence of what he understands. And she can ask him as 17 many questions. And if in the -- if in the end there is 18 contradictory evidence you've heard both sides, you 19 either make an assessments or somebody might be subject 20 to recall. 21 But to try to -- to work the entire flood 22 of documents through this witness, I don't think it will 23 be helpful. 24 Thank you Mr. Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
1141 very much Mr. Ross. 2 Anybody else? Yes, Mr. Downard...? 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thank you, sir. Very 4 briefly, sir, I agree with everything that Mr. Horton 5 said, I hope we both think it means the same thing. 6 But I'm a little bit concerned that I 7 think people are being a little bit too hard on -- on Ms. 8 Jones in terms of presuming that she has all sort of 9 intentions that I'm not sure she has. I think that the - 10 - the point is, that of course it's not a very good idea 11 to be putting in witness statements and so on, by putting 12 them to witnesses who have no knowledge about them. 13 But what we have to be primarily concerned 14 about is fairness to the Witness. And the question 15 simply has to be whether that concern should yield to 16 this witness for example, feeling that he's been badly 17 treated later on. If witness -- if evidence comes out 18 from another witness that is specifically contrary to 19 what he said and he hasn't had a chance to explain 20 himself. 21 So, it's going to depend -- I don't think 22 we can -- in my submission adopt a blanket rule with 23 respect to third party statements, we have to look at the 24 particular statement in issue. 25 But certainly I would agree that there's
1151 no basis for putting in a third-party witness statement 2 holus bolus and I suggest that that's not what Ms. Jones' 3 had in mind. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much, Mr. Downard. 6 Ms. Jones...? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 12 Commissioner. I just wanted to assure you that, and as I 13 said earlier that the book of documents that has been 14 prepared for Mr. Simon's cross-examination are documents 15 that might be referred to in the event the appropriate 16 topic arises that he has knowledge of. 17 But we have no intention of putting every 18 document to the witness. We have no intention of putting 19 these documents in as exhibits. What they are is 20 material that all Counsel and the Commission is on notice 21 that we may refer to. 22 That's what we're required to do under the 23 rules and that's what we have done. In terms of the rule 24 in Brown & Dunn and if it's of assistance to you, Mr. 25 Commissioner, I have the excerpt from Sopinka. And as I
1161 understand, from looking at that and looking at the cases 2 where Brown & Dunn has been used, the beginning point of 3 Brown & Dunn, is certainly not that a witness can only be 4 impeached on prior inconsistent statements or on a 5 document he or she made. 6 The point of Brown & Dunn, as I understand 7 it, is that if there is contradictory evidence about 8 something a witness has knowledge of -- has direct 9 knowledge of or can speak to, then the witness is 10 entitled to know whether or not there's a contrary 11 version of events -- version of events and what that 12 version is. 13 And that allows the witness to speak to 14 the issue. He may know something about that. He may 15 not. He may disagree. And I'd also say, Mr. 16 Commissioner, that in a Inquiry such as this one where 17 the events happened almost ten (10) years ago, and many 18 of the witnesses don't have contemporaneous notes and 19 have talked about perhaps having difficulty with memory. 20 Some -- the other reason that it may be 21 helpful on occasion to refer to contemporaneous 22 statements or statements that were made at or around the 23 time, is to assist someone in refreshing their memory. 24 Maybe it will help and maybe it will not. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
1171 MS. KAREN JONES: I agree with -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry. I agree 4 with Ms. Vella that there is no absolute judicial 5 requirement that every statement be put to a witness that 6 may contradict his or her version of events. 7 And, Mr. Commissioner, I'm not thinking 8 that we've done that to date or that we propose to do 9 that. But there are certain events where witnesses have 10 direct knowledge of matters and they speak to them and 11 other persons have contradict that version of events. 12 And in those circumstances, Mr. 13 Commissioner, it seems fair to put that version of events 14 to the witness and the witness can agree, can disagree or 15 say that they don't know. 16 I don't see that as an incredibly lengthy 17 process to go through. I don't think that our use of 18 documents to date has added significantly to the length 19 of this proceeding and I don't anticipate it's going to - 20 - to in the future. 21 But I think it's a matter of fairness and 22 it allows the witness to comment on that. One (1) of the 23 things that's a little difficult in the arguments or the 24 positions that have been put forward to you, Mr. 25 Commissioner, is they presume that my question is going
1181 to be on a topic. 2 And Ms. Vella indicated that I would be 3 putting evidence to this witness about guns and that's 4 not what I'm doing right now. And so it would be 5 helpful, Mr. Commissioner, if I had the opportunity to 6 ask my question and then if there's a problem with that, 7 we can deal with it. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 9 fine. We will. But your questions have -- there has to 10 be some relevance. I think the reason Ms. Dunn said that 11 as a question of guns would certainly make it relevant. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm 14 wondering what else you might be asking that would 15 introduce the subject of relevance. But just before we 16 go -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I 19 understand what your submission is. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you said 22 that you want to be helpful on occasion -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to assist 25 and to refresh a witness' memory, and that's essentially
1191 the way Mr. Roland put it when he embarked on this in the 2 first instance. And to be fair, and it's all about 3 fairness, and you've repeated that now. 4 I had read the decision in Brown & Dunn. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I found 7 it an interesting decision. I know it's been referred to 8 in subsequent cases -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and 11 perhaps has taken on the position of a rule. But in the 12 original case there wasn't -- it was about not cross- 13 examining a witness at all. 14 And then subsequently not being able to 15 suggest that the witness wasn't being truthful. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: His 18 credibility wasn't tested at all. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It wasn't 21 about prior or subsequent inconsistent statements or 22 third party statements. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As I 25 understood it, that wasn't the essence of the decision.
1201 It was about solicitor/client privilege, the decision in 2 Brown & Dunn and the ambit of it, the scope of it. 3 And the other point in Brown & Dunn as I 4 understood reading the case, was about not being able to 5 raise questions on appeal that weren't raised at the 6 trial. 7 So I was wondering how it became what it 8 may have become. And I realize it's been referred to in 9 a number of subsequent cases. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I haven't 12 read the Mewett article that I've just been handed 13 recently. I read it sometime ago. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, I'd be happy to 15 hand up the Sopinka article on Brown & Dunn. He points 16 out -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which 18 article is that? 19 MS. KAREN JONES: It's from the Law of 20 Evidence in Canada by John Sopinka. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I -- 22 I'm -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And the year 25 of that?
1211 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's the 3 year that article was written? 4 MS. KAREN JONES: This was -- I'm not 5 sure which edition of Sopinka it is -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: But I think it was -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: From the 9 book? 10 MS. KAREN JONES: -- the latest --- yeah, 11 it's from his book. It's the latest edition. 12 And he talks about, as you know, Brown & 13 Dunn was decided in 1893 -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1893. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: And since then there 16 have been a number of cases -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That have 18 arisen. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: -- that have talked 20 about the principle that was set out. And so one (1) of 21 the things that Sopinka does, is he sets down the reason 22 for the rule that was set out in Brown & Dunn and he does 23 that in some length. 24 And if it's helpful, I can read it to you 25 and if it's not, I can hand it up to you.
1221 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: But essentially what he 3 -- what it talks about is that it -- he speaks to the 4 importance of not to take a witness' evidence and pass it 5 by as a matter altogether unchallenged. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: And then what -- when 8 it's impossible for him to explain, as perhaps he might 9 have been able to do if the question had been put to him, 10 then to put a spin on it. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 12 exactly right. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. And there have 14 been a number of cases that have dealt with that soon -- 15 that have dealt with -- sorry, the evolution of the rule 16 since then and I certainly agree with Ms. Vella that 17 there is no hard and fast requirement for that, and that 18 the Supreme Court of Canada has made that clear. 19 But in general terms, I think it is the 20 practice in law and certainly the practice in court, to 21 put statements to a witness that -- that -- that 22 challenge or contradict or otherwise vary from his or her 23 version of events. 24 And, Mr. Commissioner, with all respect, 25 it would be -- add an extraordinary length of time to
1231 this Inquiry if what happens is, for example, the First 2 Nation witnesses testify, some time down the road the OPP 3 and the OPPA members testify and then the first set of 4 witnesses have to -- have to be re-called and speak to 5 the points that are raised. This seems -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 7 understand. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: -- in terms of judicial 9 economy -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: That it makes much more 12 sense to say we anticipate that this statement's going to 13 come up and what do you have to say about that? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a 15 question of how much you put and how often you put it 16 and -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- exactly 19 what you do. We had -- 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- this 22 discussion, you and I -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, we did. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- earlier. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, we did.
1241 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I feel 2 that -- I indicated that at some point fairness moves 3 into unfairness and -- 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I so 6 don't think we can put a blanket rule on it at the outset 7 to say either you can do whatever you want with regard to 8 Brown & Dunn and ask anybody any questions on those 9 statements, or you can't use them at all. I don't think 10 either make any sense, frankly, and as difficult as it 11 may be, there may have to be specific objections to 12 specific improper questions or approach that you take. 13 It doesn't have to be if you continue. 14 You've indicated that's not your intention. So I take 15 you on your word. But if you are asking a specific 16 question of a specific witness with a third party 17 statement that seems to go from fair to unfair, I assume 18 that Counsel, one (1) or the other will object and we'll 19 have to deal with that. 20 But I don't think that the idea of just 21 being able to use any third party statements to bring out 22 the evidence that you wish to is going to be allowed in a 23 general or blanket way of going forward. And I don't 24 think that's your intention. 25 You've said it's not.
1251 MS. KAREN JONES: No, it certainly is 2 not, Mr. Commissioner -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: And I don't think it's 5 been our approach to date. I -- I understand that there 6 are times when people object or you have -- you want to 7 direct the questions and that's helpful -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: -- to me, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One (1) of 12 the reasons why Ms. Vella, as Commission Counsel, in her 13 evidence, in her questions of the Witness asked if the 14 Witness was aware -- 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- of prior 17 and consistent statements that may allege and gave the 18 witness an opportunity, a fairness opportunity to 19 indicate that he was aware, or not or if he were aware 20 that it might affect his evidence or change his story. 21 That was a fair way to put it. And I 22 think that if you were to do it in a more general way, 23 with respect to questions on issues that are relevant to 24 this Inquiry, I think that's a fair question. 25 But at some point in time, it changes into
1261 something else. And I think most of us -- I certainly 2 did, got a sense in one (1) of the earlier uses of Brown 3 & Dunn, I'm not sure if that was the first time, that it 4 had gone beyond what the so-called rule was intended to 5 achieve. 6 So I think if we all understand that, I 7 think that we can go forward. If you're going to ask any 8 question that Counsel are uncomfortable with, they will 9 object. I see Mr. Horton already on his feet. So I may 10 have said something already that -- 11 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, just a 12 few short words based on something that Ms. Jones said 13 and then something that you said. 14 Ms. Jones said why don't -- why doesn't 15 she ask the questions and then people can object to each 16 question? The problem with the -- the basis on which 17 we're objecting is that the prejudice is in the question. 18 The whole problem is, that the Witness 19 cannot be expected to make a meaningful response to a 20 question. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not if 22 it's -- 23 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- that is based 24 upon a statement made by someone else in circumstances 25 where he is not involved, where he's not referred to and
1271 so on. 2 And that's the whole point of our 3 objection, is some of these questions are being asked to 4 put the question on the record. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I know 6 that. 7 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Regardless of what 8 the Witness has to say. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: So by the time the 11 question is asked, the purpose in asking the question is 12 already served. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 14 unfairness. That's when you get to a specific -- 15 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Right -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- reading 17 of statements or parts of statements -- 18 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and I 20 don't think that that's a fair way to give a witness an 21 opportunity to counter a statement. 22 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: And it only has to 23 do with the use of the statements in that way, where you 24 don't care what the witness says, it has nothing to do 25 with Ms. Jones' right to ask the witness about any
1281 subject matter that's relevant. It's only about using 2 questions as a way of getting other statements before the 3 Court, before they have the ability to be tested. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 5 think that we can possibly put a rule on that would make 6 it impossible for that to occur. So I think we may have 7 to object to a particular situation when it arises. 8 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: And perhaps then the 9 way to deal with that, Commissioner, is that as -- 10 perhaps if we get two (2) or three (3) of those 11 situations by way of example, then Counsel can be guided 12 by your rulings in those specific instances. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so. 14 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Thank you, sir. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I 16 agree with the comments. In my objection I pointed out 17 that the concern was the use of third party statements 18 and the mode of cross-examination, not the area of cross- 19 examination being proposed. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And the Supreme Court 22 of Canada in Palmer and Palmer is quite clear that in 23 order to preserve the fairness to the witness he should 24 have general notice of a contrary version of events, but 25 to require him to slog through other people's versions of
1291 events on the event by event basis, is not required to 2 discharge the burden of fairness. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 4 you're saying the same thing as Mr. Horton said or Mr. 5 Horton said the same thing as you're saying or whichever. 6 I think Ms. Jones I agree with the position just stated 7 by Ms. Vella and by Mr. Horton. 8 And I think if you want to be fair to a 9 witness, you can do it by asking the witness general 10 questions, rather than putting in evidence parts of 11 statements that are not yet evidence. 12 MR. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, 13 there's just one (1) thing I might add to that. Is one 14 (1) of the reasons that the practice arises or has arisen 15 of reading a portion of a statement, is because other 16 than doing that, Counsel, of course, paraphrases or tries 17 to summarize what's written down. 18 And the problems that one often can get 19 into is that -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 21 isn't fair -- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: -- your paraphrasing or 23 your summarizing isn't accurate or correct. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That -- I 25 understand that.
1301 MS. KAREN JONES: And so you not only 2 put something that's not right to the witness that you're 3 asking questions of, but you also don't fairly state what 4 the anticipated evidence of the person is. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 6 understand that and that's the balance. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At some 9 point, putting it in to be fair, becomes unfair. And I 10 realize we're just going to have to be alert to that. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. And Mr. 12 Commissioner, would you like to see the excerpt from 13 Sopinka, would that be of assistance to you? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I would 15 appreciate it if you have it -- 16 MS. KAREN JONES: I do, I have a copy -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I would 18 certainly appreciate having it. This issue may come up 19 again. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: It may come up again, 21 yes, it may. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
1311 Q: Now, you had spoken earlier, and 2 again I am -- Mr. Simon, I'm sorry for these 3 interruptions because I know that they're difficult when 4 you're sitting on the stand. 5 You had told us earlier about some of the 6 interactions that you had had with local people; that, 7 for example, people coming into the park and then into 8 the base and picking fights and some of the hate mail 9 that was coming in and some of the other interactions. 10 Did some of those activities or some of 11 those problems with people in the area increase over 12 time? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: It seemed like they would, kind of, 17 increase after stuff would be in the newspaper or 18 something. 19 Q: Sure. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Sure. And I take it that the basis 22 of the concerns that were raised or what people seemed to 23 be saying was they thought you ought not to be in the 24 base; is that right? 25 A: Yeah.
1321 Q: Yeah? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now, on September 28th you told the 4 Commissioner that you were a part of a group that entered 5 the built up area of the base; yeah? And I hate to sound 6 like a nag but this is one of the places you've got to 7 say "yes" or "no." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: And I take it from your comments to 12 the Commissioner that a plan had been developed to enter 13 the built up area of the base? 14 A: I don't know. Just -- little -- kind 15 of a plan, I guess. 16 Q: Okay. So can you help us with who 17 made the decision to enter the built up area of the base? 18 A: Just everybody that showed up. 19 Q: Okay. Everybody that showed up at 20 what? 21 A: See, we all -- we had a camp ground 22 or a camp set up on the beach and that's where everybody 23 met up before going in. 24 Q: Okay. And when you said you "had a 25 camp set up on the beach", was that beach in Ipperwash
1331 Provincial Park or the beach on the base area beside the 2 park? 3 A: The base area beside the park. 4 Q: Okay. And so you said that you "had 5 a camp on the beach", I take it there was an area that 6 people were staying in? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And who was staying in that 9 area? 10 A: I'm not sure. Quite a few people 11 were. A bunch of young guys living in the bus. 12 Q: A bunch of young guys living in the 13 bus? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And when you say "young guys living 16 in the bus" would that be like, guys in their 20's, guys 17 in their 30's, guys -- 18 A: Teens. 19 Q: -- in their teens? 20 A: Teens, yeah. 21 Q: Teens? Okay. And were they guys who 22 were staying at the base during the summer or were they 23 guys who were spending more time there than that? 24 A: Guys that would stay there longer. 25 Q: Okay. Do you know how long they had
1341 been there for? 2 A: Where, at the beach? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: They'd usually set up a camp down 5 there whenever the weather got warm. 6 Q: Okay. And when you said the guys 7 themselves had been there for longer than the summer, how 8 long were -- 9 A: Well, they weren't right at the 10 beach. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: They were -- 13 Q: They're staying in -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- in the base itself? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And so they were guys that you would 18 have known quite well? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And again, can you help us 21 with who they were? 22 A: Well, it -- we had a bunch of cousins 23 that would come down whenever they could. They were 24 always down at that spot. 25 Q: Okay. And can you help us out with
1351 who the cousins were? 2 A: I don't know. Harley George -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- Dale George, Nick Cottrell, Wesley 5 George. 6 Q: So there were four (4) or five (5) of 7 them that were there on the bus? 8 A: Yeah. Well, I think we had a bunch 9 of -- like, there was a bunch of other people that were 10 visiting too and then they set up camp around there, too. 11 Q: Okay. And they were visiting from? 12 A: Other reserves. 13 Q: Other reserves? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And you said that there was a 16 meeting at the beach camp. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yeah. And how did that meeting 19 happen? Did someone call it? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Can -- what happened? 22 A: I don't know. It was about a month 23 before there -- we were all -- we had a big meeting 24 because there was something happened -- a big incident 25 happened when my tires got flattened on my bike. There
1361 was a big incident and we just kind of had regular 2 meetings after that. 3 Q: Okay. Sorry, I just need -- 4 A: Like every couple of weeks or 5 something. 6 Q: -- to go back a little bit. I didn't 7 quite understand. You said something had happened? 8 A: Yeah, there was -- 9 Q: Something big had happened? What 10 happened? 11 A: What's that -- when the tires got 12 flattened on my bike. 13 Q: Okay. And had anything else happened 14 that started you having meetings? 15 A: Yeah. There was -- some military 16 guys were -- I guess -- we -- my uncles -- well, they 17 captured some military guys in the Park -- or not in the 18 Park, in the military base and they were drunk the night 19 that -- that they slashed my tires. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And then, let's see, I think they had 22 charges for my uncle and I don't know, somebody else. 23 They had charges, a bunch of assault charges on them 24 because they went to the base -- the front camp there, 25 and -- I don't know. The military guys tried to jump
1371 them up there, something, had a kind of a little fight or 2 something. 3 And, well, we just kind of had meetings 4 every couple of weeks after that. 5 Q: Okay. Let me -- let me just go back 6 and see if I can figure that out a little bit better. 7 You're saying that on the night that you had your tires 8 slashed -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Your -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- uncles and other people went out? 13 Were they looking for the person who did it? 14 A: Yes, everybody was running around 15 looking them. 16 Q: Okay. And I take it from what you 17 said they found someone? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then what happened? 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I just want to ensure 21 that the witness realizes that he should not be speaking 22 about things he heard about -- 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- in my respectful 25 submission, but rather what he either saw or heard or has
1381 direct knowledge of and I'm not sure that the witness is 2 clear about that. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 4 appreciate this -- the assistance. I had taken from Mr. 5 Simon's comments that he was there, but I'll ask him if 6 he was. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: Were you involved in looking for the 10 person that slashed your tires? 11 A: Yes, I was. 12 Q: Okay. And were you there when a 13 person was identified? 14 A: No. 15 Q: No? Okay. And did you have any 16 dealings during the course of that night with the person 17 who had been identified as slashing the tires? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. And so what you were telling 20 us about what had happened with him, was that something 21 that someone else told you about? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And I take it from you that 24 that incident would have been something that increased 25 tensions between you and the military?
1391 A: Between us and the military and the 2 police were involved in there too. 3 Q: By police you mean the OPP? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. And was that in July of 1995? 6 A: It was the end of June, yeah. 7 Q: End of June -- 8 A: End of June or -- 9 Q: -- early July 1995? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And so after that incident in 12 the end of June, early July 1995, you said that there 13 were discussions that were ongoing? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And -- at the camp on the 16 beach? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Yeah. And how did -- and, sorry, 19 were you present at those discussions on the beach? 20 A: Yes, I was. 21 Q: Okay. And how did it come about that 22 a decision was made to enter the built up area? 23 A: Just everybody figured it was about 24 time. They were fed up with these army guys, military 25 people, running around in back -- backyards and causing
1401 trouble and everything. 2 Q: So, the -- you wanted -- 3 A: The military police they couldn't -- 4 they couldn't keep care of their own guys, so it was time 5 for them to go -- 6 Q: So -- 7 A: -- before something bad really did 8 happen. 9 Q: Okay. So you wanted the military 10 out? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And that was the reason to take over 13 the built-up area was to get them out? 14 A: Yeah, I guess, I don't know -- I 15 think the -- well there was lots of reasons -- 16 Q: Sure. 17 A: -- for taking over that. 18 Q: Sure. That -- I take it that was a 19 pretty big reason, you didn't want them around anymore? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: We didn't want them, and there was 23 lots of reasons. 24 Q: Now, I think you told the 25 Commissioner that on the day that -- oh, sorry let me
1411 just go back a little bit. 2 You've told us a little bit about why you 3 decided to take over the built-up area. Can you tell us 4 what kind of plans were made about how you were going to 5 do it? 6 A: How we were going to do it? I'm not 7 sure we discussed -- well -- we pretty much agreed to the 8 fact that we were going to go in there and do something 9 anyways. And then I guess the plans were we're just 10 trying to secure a building anyways that we could kind of 11 fix up for winter time. 12 Q: Sure. And I think you told the 13 Commissioner that -- that there was something about a 14 plan for the bus to go in at a certain point? 15 A: There were just -- yeah, we just kind 16 of drew a quick plan together and -- 17 Q: Yeah, so you had a plan of built-up 18 area? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the areas that you could get into 21 it? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And you had a plan that you would use 24 the bus to get into the built-up area? 25 A: The bus was kind of a diversion.
1421 Q: Okay. So how was it going to be -- 2 how was it going to be a diversion? 3 A: The military always kept a good eye 4 on the one (1) gateway that was coming up from the beach 5 on the military side. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: They always had a good eye on that, 8 and then anytime we'd pull up there or something like 9 that, there would be like a -- 10 Q: They'd be all over you? 11 A: -- no, they'd be all over that one 12 (1) area. 13 Q: Sure. 14 A: You know, move to that one (1) area. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And so that's what we did, we moved 17 the bus up there and went through the gate and all the 18 military guys went over there and then the majority of 19 the people went through the front gate. 20 Q: Oh, so it was your diversion so that 21 while the bus was coming in one (1) end you would go in 22 the other end? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And there would be no one around? 25 A: Yeah.
1431 Q: Because they would all be up at the 2 bus? And I guess it was important that the bus do 3 something dramatic, so that people would really go to the 4 area? 5 A: I don't think it was really dramatic, 6 it was just -- it was going to go through area and we 7 knew that the police would be there or the military 8 police would be all around there. 9 Q: Okay. Because as I understand the 10 bus ended up driving into a building, was that -- was 11 that something that was part of the plan? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No. That was an accident? 14 A: I'm not sure what -- 15 Q: Okay. Okay. And I think you told 16 the Commissioner that there were people from Oneida, from 17 Walpole and Sarnia who were also there when you decided 18 to enter the built-up area? 19 A: Yeah there was people from Raven Town 20 and Munsey and Chippewa of the Thames. 21 Q: Okay. So I take it that you and 22 other people had spoken with a large number of people 23 about your plans? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And I also take it that you wanted
1441 more people there so that you had lots of numbers on your 2 side? 3 A: Yeah, sure. 4 Q: Sure. And I think you told us on 5 September 28th that Dudley wasn't part of the group that 6 was -- that entered into the built-up area. Do you know 7 why he wasn't there? 8 A: He was gone away. 9 Q: He wasn't around? 10 A: No, he wasn't there. 11 Q: Okay. Had he been part of the 12 discussions about entering the base? 13 A: I'm not sure if he was -- I'm not too 14 sure if he was, or not. 15 Q: Okay. Was he away for part of that 16 summer of 1995? 17 A: I'm not sure. I think he could have 18 been, I'm not sure. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I don't know -- remember. 21 Q: Okay. Now, I think you told us that 22 you were -- you came into the area where the bus and the 23 jeep were -- 24 A: Yeah -- 25 Q: -- sometime after it happened? Was
1451 it soon in time or a long time afterwards? Could you 2 tell? Were there still people in the bus? 3 A: Yeah, I think so. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I thought I could see -- 6 Q: And I -- 7 A: -- people in the bus and then it was, 8 like, driving away. 9 Q: Sorry? 10 A: It was driving away. 11 Q: The bus was driving away? 12 A: Yeah. It was driving away. 13 Q: Okay. And I understand that there 14 were a number of women and children on the bus? 15 A: I don't know. It was just all young 16 people on the bus, I guess. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: I don't know if it was women and 19 children on the bus or what. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I think it was just -- there was a 22 few young people. They were, like, my cousins were on 23 that bus. 24 Q: Okay. By "young people" do you mean 25 teenagers or younger?
1461 A: Yeah. Teenagers and some of my 2 friends from Raven Town were on that bus, they were in 3 their 20s. 4 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not 5 any attempts were made by the military or by the OPP to 6 arrest the driver of the bus? 7 A: I didn't know at the time. But, 8 yeah, I did -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I know after. 11 Q: You -- you weren't there when that 12 happened? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Is that right? Okay. Now, after you 15 took over the base on July 29th, I think you told us that 16 there were some discussions that day between members of 17 your group and the military? 18 A: Yes, there was. 19 Q: Okay. And the -- as I -- as I 20 understood your evidence to the Commissioner, there was 21 an arrangement about your group having one (1) or two (2) 22 of the buildings to use? 23 A: Yes, there was. 24 Q: Yeah. And then I think you told the 25 Commissioner that your group didn't respect that, that's
1471 not what you wanted? 2 A: Something like that. 3 Q: Yeah. And do you know who was 4 involved in the discussions with the military on the 5 29th? 6 A: Do I know who was involved? 7 Q: Yeah. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I believe that this 12 question -- this very question was asked -- 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- this morning and he 15 indicated that he was not present and -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought it 17 was too but -- 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: By this -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that your 20 recollection also? I had the impression that that 21 question was already asked -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and 24 answered earlier. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: I had thought I had
1481 asked about after but I might have asked -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's why I 3 wasn't sure either. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It seemed 8 like a familiar question though. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: And can you help us with whether or 13 not there were any discussions with the military and the 14 group in the built-up area after July 29th of 1995? 15 A: After July 29th? I think -- I think 16 somebody come in and showed everybody how to light -- 17 light the pilots, yeah. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: There was something. 20 Q: Yeah, there was something that had 21 been arranged? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And do you know how that got 24 arranged? 25 A: No, I don't.
1491 Q: Okay. And you told the Commissioner 2 that no one had taken guns into the built-up area of the 3 base on July 29th because you didn't want the guns taking 4 attention away from what you were doing. 5 And then you went on and told us that at 6 least once after you entered the built-up area that you 7 went hunting; do you recall that? 8 And you had told us earlier that you, sort 9 of, were hunting four (4) or five (5) times a week for 10 food; did that change in July and August of 1995? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's a 12 question there. You've been -- 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm concerned about the 14 fact that Ms. Jones has put a number of propositions to 15 the witness. He hasn't acknowledged the veracity or 16 inaccuracy of any of them. 17 I'm not sure that they're all accurate 18 representations. So that being said, I think it fair 19 that the witness be asked a direct question -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- and then he can give 22 an answer to that question. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's hard to 24 follow, I'll say this to you with great respect, it's 25 hard to follow because you're putting a statement and
1501 another statement and then another statement, I'm waiting 2 for the question. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I know 5 you're trying to put it in context so he -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Right. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- will 8 understand the question -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- but it's 11 a bit difficult to follow. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: You had told the Commission on 16 September 28th that you were -- hunting was something 17 that you did frequently and I think you gave the number 18 and, if it's of assistance, I can find your evidence, 19 where you said four (4) or five (5) times a week for 20 food. 21 Do you recall that? 22 A: Yeah. I do recall it but I can't -- 23 like remember how much times. 24 Q: Sure. And -- 25 A: What time of year it would have been.
1511 Q: -- the question I had for you, is, 2 did you hunt less in July and August of 1995 than you had 3 previously? 4 A: In July and August of 1995? 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: I think I said I didn't go hunting 7 but I might have went hunting. I said I might have -- I 8 think I said I might have went hunting. I don't know if 9 I did or not. 10 Q: Sure. I -- you mean, in -- in -- 11 after July 29th, 1995 or before? Sorry, I think I've got 12 you confused. 13 A: Yeah. I am a little confused here. 14 Q: Okay. Let me just go back then and I 15 will try and do a better job. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Okay. On September 28th you told the 20 Commission that -- the question was put to you: 21 "How frequently in a week, typical 22 week, would you likely go out and hunt? 23 And you said, 24 "I'd say four (4) or five (5) days, 25 anyway".
1521 And Ms. Vella said, "okay," and then you 2 said "a week". 3 So your evidence on the 28th was that you 4 went hunting four (4) or five (5) times a week for food. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think the period or 6 time frame -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, what 8 period of time -- 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, what time frame. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 11 question you're asking now. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What period 14 of time does that evidence relate to? 15 MS. KAREN JONES: The period of time was 16 May 1993 to July 1995. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think the 18 period of time you're asking about now is subsequent to 19 that. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: I am asking about 21 subsequent to that and the question that I'm trying to 22 ask him and it's not going very well, I'm sure due to me, 23 is that my understanding was, prior to July or during 24 July, the period from 1993 to July of 91995 you said you 25 were hunting four (4) or five (5) times a week for food.
1531 And my question to you is: Did your 2 hunting practice chance after July 29th, 1995? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 4 Ross...? 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, My 6 Friend Mr. Scullion and his computer skills has drawn a - 7 - that there were specifically speaking about during 8 hunting season. 9 So it is during hunting season that he 10 would hunt like that. It was not even a situation that 11 you can take from May 19 -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- 93 to November and 14 say, okay, fine, these are the number of weeks and you 15 multiply it by five (5) and that's the amount of times 16 you hunted. 17 It was not like that. Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, there 19 certainly wasn't a line drawn at July and what was prior 20 or subsequent, so... 21 I know the question you're trying to ask. 22 I think you've got the question now. Let's -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: I -- I hope I do. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's see if 25 he can answer. You're interested in knowing his hunting
1541 pattern subsequent to July 1995? 2 MS. KAREN JONES: That's right. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you 4 understand the question? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: I would be happy to 6 read the transcript again. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 8 that's going to be helpful. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: It may not, Ms. Vella 10 just suggested it -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did she? 12 MS. KAREN JONES: I will -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, she did. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm just 16 afraid that it may be more confusing. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, I did. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, she did. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 20 Let's go ahead and -- 21 MS. KAREN JONES: And I'll -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- see what 23 happens. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: And I will -- what I'll 25 do is I'll read a longer -- excerpt so that we have all
1551 of that. 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: What page? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: It's 143. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is the 5 evidence that you gave -- 6 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- a week or 8 two (2) ago when you were here, September 28th. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 11 Q: Starting with: 12 "Q: Okay. Did you hunt from time to 13 time between 1993 and July 1995? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did -- 16 A: Pretty much hunted all the time. 17 Q: -- did you consider yourself to be 18 a good hunter? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: A reasonably good shot? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And focussing on the May 1993 to 23 July 1995 period, did you hunt on the 24 Camp Ipperwash lands? 25 A: Yeah.
1561 Q: And over what periods of time 2 during the year would you typically 3 hunt? 4 A: Let's see -- mostly October -- 5 October to around -- let's see -- 6 January, February, somewhere around 7 there. 8 Q: Okay. And from time to time would 9 you hunt during the other part of the 10 year? 11 A: Like sometimes you'd go out and if 12 we needed some meat in the summertime 13 or something, we'd go out and get a 14 deer or whatever. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. And was this a daytime 16 activity or a nighttime activity or 17 both? 18 A: Both. 19 Q: And why would one go hunting in 20 the nighttime? 21 A: Well, we don't really look at 22 hunting as being a sport or anything, 23 something that we don't really do for 24 fun. We just do it for -- to feed 25 ourselves.
1571 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: And it's a lot easier to catch 3 animals at the nighttime so we'd pretty 4 much go for the easier way to get the 5 food. 6 Q: Okay. And how frequently say in a 7 week, a typical week, would you likely 8 go out and hunt? 9 A: I'd say four (4) or five (5) days 10 anyways -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- a week." 13 So my understanding -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You did that 15 very well. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you very much. 17 If there's anything else I need to read, I'll do it. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: But I think, fairly, you can say that 21 Mr. Simon was talking about his hunting activities from 22 1993 to July of 1995? I think that I fairly put what his 23 evidence was. 24 And my question to you is, and again I'm 25 sorry for this, Mr. Simon, after July 29th, 1995, did
1581 your hunting change? Did you hunt less? Did you hunt 2 more? Did you hunt in different areas? 3 A: And you're asking me if this happened 4 -- like, I'm hunting -- what time of the year are you 5 asking me? 6 Q: I'm asking you, after July 29th, 1995 7 was -- 8 A: Okay -- 9 Q: -- there -- did your usual hunting 10 pattern change? 11 A: No. 12 Q: No. Okay -- 13 A: I went hunting in the fall time and 14 then if we needed some meat, I would go hunting one night 15 and get my meat during the summer. 16 Q: Sure. So -- 17 A: So I'm saying so it never changed, it 18 never changed. 19 Q: That's right. So nothing changed 20 about your hunting after July 29th, 1995? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Right, it's -- 23 A: But I'm not hunting, I'm not hunting 24 five (5) or six (6) times a week during the summer. 25 Q: Right.
1591 A: That's right. 2 Q: It would change, depending on what's 3 going on and how much meat you needed. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I don't 5 think that's what he's saying. 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: It would depend on if you needed 10 food? 11 A: I am not hunting in the summer time. 12 Q: Right. 13 A: I don't hunt in the summer time. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: If we're going to put on a barbeque 16 or something, we need some meat, then I'll go out one (1) 17 night and get my meat and then that's all we do. 18 Q: Sure. 19 A: We're not hunting five (5) or six (5) 20 times a week or four (4) or five (5) times, whatever 21 you're trying to say here. 22 Q: Okay. So you'd be hunting if you 23 needed to catch something? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. Now, on September the 28th,
1601 you told the Commissioner that at time you were in the 2 built-up area, you had six (6) or seven (7) guns. And 3 you told us that you had two (2) shotguns, two 12 gauge-- 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I think we've been 5 through that even today. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You asked 7 him earlier for an inventory of his guns, so I'm not sure 8 if you're asking him the same question, or if you're 9 going into another area. 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And it's the same 11 inventory that was given to Ms. Vella. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. No, I 13 know that. Where are we going? You're not simply 14 repeating a question for the sake of getting the same 15 answer? 16 MR. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, what 17 Mr. Simon said on September 28th was Ms. Vella had asked 18 him some questions about the guns he had while he was at 19 the base and he had given some evidence about the number 20 of guns he had and what they were. And his evidence had 21 been that he had eight (8) to ten (10) guns and you told 22 us what they were. 23 He was also then asked about when he was 24 in the built-up area, what guns did he have. And he said 25 he had six (6) or seven (7) guns and the inventory was
1611 different than the earlier inventory. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: And so what I'd like to 4 do -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So you're 6 going after the inventory -- 7 MS. KAREN JONES: I'd like to ask him 8 about what he had when he was in the built-up area and 9 I'll ask him if it was the same or different than in 10 1993. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 That's a perfectly legitimate question. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: Mr. Simon, earlier on I had asked you 17 questions about the guns that you had been May of 1993 18 and July of 1995; Do you remember that this morning? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I wanted to ask you some 21 questions about the guns that you had after July 29th, 22 1995 and specifically, during the time that you were in 23 the built up area and at the Park; that's the time period 24 that I'm interested in. 25 And I had understood from your evidence on
1621 September 28th that whereas you had had eight (8) or nine 2 (9) or ten (10) guns in 1993, 1994 and July of 1995, when 3 you were in the built-up area you had six (6) or seven 4 (7) guns. 5 So when I read that it seemed to me that 6 you had -- it sounded like you had fewer guns at the time 7 and from the inventory you said it might have been some 8 different guns; is that right? 9 First of all, did you have more guns or 10 less guns in -- when you were in the built-up area than 11 you had had when you were out in the base? 12 A: I'm not sure. I was always buying 13 and selling guns or trading or whatever. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Just changing my inventory all the 16 time. 17 Q: Sure. And when you say you were 18 always buying and selling guns, I take it that from time 19 to time you would be buying guns from private 20 individuals; is that right? 21 A: Gun stores. 22 Q: Pardon me? 23 A: Gun stores. 24 Q: Gun stores. Did you ever buy guns 25 from private individuals?
1631 A: I could have. I'm not sure. 2 Q: Sure. And did you ever sell guns to 3 private individuals? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: I'm not sure if I did or not. 8 Q: Okay. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And we know from your evidence 13 earlier this morning that other people who were at the -- 14 in the army camp and then, I take it, who moved into the 15 built-up area also had guns? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: Can you tell us, if you know, what 18 they did with their guns during the period after July 19 29th of 1993 -- sorry, 1995? 20 A: I don't know what they did with them. 21 22 Q: Okay. So you don't know if they were 23 in the base, somewhere on the base? 24 A: I don't know what they did. I don't 25 know.
1641 Q: Sure. You don't know if they would 2 be somewhere in the built-up area? 3 A: No, I don't know. 4 Q: Sure. Or they could be somewhere 5 else, you don't know? And you were -- you had told us a 6 little bit earlier in the day about your relationship 7 with Dudley George and I understand from your evidence 8 that he was your second cousin? 9 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 10 Q: And that he was a fun guy to be 11 around? And I'm sorry to -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- to bug you but this is -- this is 14 yes or no time. And can you tell us how much older was 15 Dudley than you? 16 A: I'm not sure. About fourteen (14) 17 years older, maybe. 18 Q: Fourteen (14) years older than you 19 are, okay. 20 A: Fifteen (15) years, maybe. I'm not 21 sure. 22 Q: And you said in -- on September 28th 23 that there had been physical contact once between Dudley 24 George and the OPP when he was arrested and I didn't 25 understand from your comment what you were referring to.
1651 Were you present when he was arrested, 2 when there was the physical contact? 3 A: You have to, kind of, be more 4 specific. I think he was arrested a few times down here. 5 Q: He was arrested -- 6 A: But -- 7 Q: -- at the base? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. Were there times he was 10 arrested at the base where you were present? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And what -- was it one (1) 13 occasion or more than one (1) occasion? 14 A: Just once. 15 Q: Okay. Can you tell us what happened? 16 For -- sorry, for -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 18 Vella...? 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry. You have to 20 forgive me. It would be of assistance, perhaps, if 21 Counsel could just let us know what page reference she's 22 referring to with respect to the -- the transcript. You 23 see I've discovered that I did ask him for example about 24 his inventory of guns, for the post-July 29th area. 25 And he did answer and we've just noted up
1661 the question as to whether he ever saw physical contact 2 as between Dudley George and OPP and his answer in chief 3 was "no". 4 So I think it would be helpful if we -- 5 just to ensure that the evidence is accurately put to the 6 -- the Witness. It may be there's another spot in the 7 transcript that I haven't found and I would welcome that 8 direction. 9 But I think it's important that the 10 evidence be put accurately. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: September 28th, 2004, 13 page 151 and I'll read a longer excerpt so people can be 14 satisfied that it's in context. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What 16 question is this in respect to? This is in respect to -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. There was a 18 series of questions that was asked by Ms. Vella about 19 Dudley George's relationship with the military and others 20 and Mr. Simon had given some evidence that he was 21 ridiculing them. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: And Ms. Vella asked: 24 "Q: In what way? 25 A: Whatever. In all different kind
1671 of ways. 2 Q: Okay, can you think of any 3 specific examples? 4 A: Not anyone specific. Maybe 5 shooting a finger to the police or 6 whatever but -- 7 Q: You say "shooting a finger to the 8 police"? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Were any of those interactions 11 that you witnessed between Dudley 12 George and the OPP involved any 13 physical contact? 14 A: No. Just the once when they came 15 and arrested him". 16 And so I think I have fairly put to him -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: -- that there was an 19 occasion where he was present where Dudley George and the 20 OPP were involved in a physical altercation. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 22 if we know the time period. It wasn't put in the in- 23 chief, but you can -- 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure
1681 if we know when that event occurred. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: There were no questions 3 asked about, Mr. Commissioner -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: It was just let go at 6 that. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So you're -- 8 MS. KAREN JONES: And that's why I am 9 just trying to -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And that's 11 why you are pursuing -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: -- get some more 13 information -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: -- about it. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 19 Q: Sorry, Mr. Simon. 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: Back to the question. You had said 22 that you were there on the occasion when there was 23 physical contact between Dudley George and the OPP and he 24 was arrested. 25 Can you tell us what happened?
1691 A: Let me think. Now it was around the 2 end of summer in 1993. 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: Must have been August sometime, maybe 5 September. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: We were still kind of watching over 8 the gate. There was a gate at -- 9 Q: Sorry, you were still kind of 10 watching over a gate? 11 A: Yeah. At -- 12 Q: What does that mean? 13 A: -- whatchamacallit? That home base - 14 - homestead camp for that we had for Abe -- Abraham. 15 Q: Sorry, I couldn't hear you. 16 A: Okay, Dudley was -- the police pulled 17 up to the gate and Dudley went up there and asked them, 18 like, What do you guys want. And then he said, we want 19 you. And he's like, Oh no. 20 Q: Okay. And what happened? And -- 21 sorry, where -- which -- what gate was this at? 22 A: This is at the gate by the homestead. 23 Q: And so that was by -- alongside of 21 24 Highway? 25 A: Yes.
1701 Q: Yeah. And was there a gate there 2 that was an entrance gate into the military base? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And was it on -- if you were -- was 5 it on the east side of the base or the west side of the 6 base? 7 A: It was right in the middle of the 8 base. 9 Q: Right in the middle of the base. 10 Okay. And you so say the -- sorry, was it the military 11 police or the OPP? 12 A: The OPP. 13 Q: The OPP. You said they came up to 14 the gate and what happened? 15 A: Dudley went out to see what they 16 wanted and they said that they wanted him. 17 Q: Okay. And did they say why they 18 wanted him? 19 A: They said they had a warrant for him. 20 Q: Okay. And did you hear them say what 21 the warrant was for? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. And what happened after the 24 police said that they wanted him and they had a warrant? 25 A: They handcuffed him and he jumped in
1711 the car and away they went. 2 Q: Okay. And so what was the physical 3 contact that you were talking about? 4 A: They handcuffed him. 5 Q: Okay. And that was all the police 6 did was handcuff him? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or 9 not, Dudley George, was away from the base for some 10 period of time after that? 11 A: Yes he was. 12 Q: Okay. And when you say that, do you 13 mean days or weeks or months? 14 A: I forget. I don't know how long. 15 Q: Okay. And I take it that during the 16 period of time, 1993 to 1995, that you would have spent 17 quite a bit of time with Dudley? Is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And I wanted to ask you some 20 questions about whether and if you don't know, you can 21 tell me, about whether Dudley drank from time to time? 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: Sure. And can you help us 24 understanding when he drank, would his mood change or 25 would his behaviour change?
1721 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I don't know, he'd get drunk. 4 Q: Sure. Would he -- for example, would 5 he be more hostile towards the military police during 6 those times? 7 A: He'd be more verbal, sure. 8 Q: Sure. And did you have -- I take it 9 that you would have gone to Dudley's trailer from time to 10 time? You were living there for a part of the time, 11 right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And do you know, whether or not, 14 there was a transformer in or around Dudley's trailer? 15 A: Yes there was. 16 Q: Okay. And do you know what happened 17 to that transformer? 18 A: Let's see -- there was a hydro wires 19 and that transformer was leaking -- leaking out -- we 20 thought like PCB's since they got PCB's in them and the 21 transformer was leaking and we thought it would be 22 leaking PCB's and it was right outside of Dudley's 23 trailer and there for a bunch of hydro wires that weren't 24 turned on or anything, they weren't running any juice 25 through they, they were just dead.
1731 And they were leaking PCB's over Dudley's 2 trailer so they chopped it down. 3 Q: You had chopped down the pole? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. And do you know how the -- how 6 or when the transformer started leaking PCB's? 7 A: When? 8 Q: Yeah? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And do you know what happened to it 11 that it started to leak? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No. Okay. 14 A: It was just leaking. 15 Q: Okay. And the other thing I wanted 16 to ask you some questions about, is how during the period 17 of time that you were at the base in the built up area, 18 and if you don't know, you can tell me, did Dudley George 19 support himself? 20 What was his source of income, if any? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Let's see -- he was working for a 25 moving company whenever I first -- well whenever we first
1741 moved in there. 2 Q: Okay. In 1993? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And was that a job he had during the 5 summer? 6 A: What's that? 7 Q: Was that a job he had during the 8 summer of 1993? 9 A: I'm not sure if he -- I think he had 10 it all the time. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Or sometimes -- I'm not sure what he 13 was doing. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: But, he used to go work for that guy 16 moving stuff around all over the place. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And then I think he went on welfare 19 after that, whenever he moved into the base. 20 Q: Okay. And do you know if he worked 21 at all during the time that he was on the base? 22 A: I'm not sure. 23 Q: Okay. And when your mom was giving 24 evidence, she told us about the tribute dinner for Dudley 25 in March of 1994 and she said that one (1) of the reasons
1751 that she wanted to honour Dudley was she thought that 2 people picked on him. 3 And I had asked her about what she meant 4 by that and she had explained that some people thought 5 that he shouldn't have the trailer -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- that he was in and I wondered if 8 you agreed with your mom that people picked on Dudley 9 from time to time? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: "Yeah". And he was -- he was 12 someone, I take it that was -- he was a small guy? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And I take it from listening 15 to you talk that he didn't have some of the things that 16 you and the other men at the base had, he didn't have a 17 gun or guns? He didn't have a car or cars? 18 He didn't have some of the things that you 19 had; is that right? 20 A: Yeah, I guess. Well -- 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: -- we pretty much shared everything 23 we had down there. 24 Q: Sure. Sure. And we haven't heard 25 anybody talk about whether or not he had a girlfriend
1761 during the time he was on the base; did he or do you 2 know? 3 A: No, no, he had -- he had a girlfriend 4 I think. 5 Q: Okay. Do you know when that was? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: Okay. And I take it from what you've 8 told us earlier that Dudley was -- hadn't been at the 9 base on the day that you entered the built up area, he 10 had missed that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I take it that that was something 13 that he would have really wanted to do? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I take it he was someone who 16 really wanted to be in the park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: He wanted to be part of that and that 19 that would be something that he could really prove 20 himself at was going to the park? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Was that a 22 question? 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
1771 Q: Let me put it another way. It was 2 important for him to be in the park because he wanted to 3 have the experience of being there; is that right? 4 Sorry, let me just go back a little 5 bit. Did you have any discussions with Dudley about 6 going to the park or taking part in being in the 7 occupation of the Park? 8 A: Yes. Yeah, kind of. 9 Q: Okay. And it was an important thing 10 to him? 11 A: Yeah. He missed out on the barracks 12 part and he just -- just -- I don't know, just felt he 13 didn't want to miss out on the park. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. And, Mr. 15 Commissioner, I see that it's quarter after 3:00 and I 16 wonder if this would be a time that you would like to 17 take a break or would you like us to carry on? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 19 think this is a good time to take a break. Thank you 20 very much. We'll take a fifteen (15) minute break. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 22 for fifteen (15) minutes. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 3:20 p.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 3:38 p.m.
1781 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 3 resumed. Please be seated. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, 5 before I resume, I wonder if we should think about time a 6 bit. I can -- it's about twenty (20) to 4:00. I can 7 tell you I probably have two (2) or three (3) more hours 8 of questions. 9 And I'm not sure how late you would like 10 to go today. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 12 we'll go at least until 5:00. Why don't we just continue 13 on and see how far we go? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If we're 16 close we'd stay a little longer. If we're not then 17 there's no point our staying longer. But if we can 18 finish your cross-examination -- you indicated at the 19 outset that you might be the better part of a day 20 Now I know we've taken up some time with 21 other matters today, but let's just carry on and see how 22 far we get. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay, thank you. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
1791 Q: Mr. Simon, can you tell us, if you 2 know, whether during the period 1993 to 1995, whether 3 Dudley George ever bought guns? 4 A: Ever bought guns? 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: Not to my knowledge. 7 Q: Okay. And do you know whether during 8 that period he ever sold guns? 9 A: No, not to my knowledge. 10 Q: Okay. Now, you told the Commission 11 on September the 28th that people were always afraid 12 while at the army camp that the OPP would come in and 13 physically remove people from the base. Do you recall 14 that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And you also said that no one 17 took any security measures in the event the OPP did try 18 to come to the base. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you told the Commissioner that no 24 OPP entered the base at any time between July 29th and 25 September the 3rd, that is after the time that you took
1801 over the built up area. Do you recall that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Now you said on September 28th 4 that you participated in a meeting on September 4th in 5 which it was agreed that you and other people would take 6 over the Park. Do you recall that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. Was this the first time that 9 you or -- and others spoke about taking over the Park on 10 September the 4th? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Or on the Labour Day weekend? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about your 20 earlier discussions about taking over the Park on Labour 21 Day weekend or September the 4th? 22 A: I don't know. It's just -- everybody 23 knew that it was something that had to be done, so it was 24 kind of a topic of discussion come across or -- 25 Q: Sure.
1811 A: -- every so often. 2 Q: Sure. And -- and you said earlier on 3 that was something that you had been talking about for a 4 couple of years, I think. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: But the thing I'm really interested 7 in was the decision to do it on the Labour Day weekend or 8 September the 4th. Was that something that you had 9 talked about beforehand? 10 A: The decision to do it on the 4th? 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: I think it was just like a spur of 13 the moment thing. 14 Q: Okay. From your perspective, it was 15 a -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- spur of the moment thing? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Do you know whether or not other 20 people had spoke about doing it on the Labour Day weekend 21 or September 4th? 22 A: I suppose everybody would have, yeah. 23 Q: Pardon me? 24 A: Somebody could have, yeah. 25 Q: Sure. And you had told the
1821 Commission that there were a number of people on the 2 morning of September the 4th who had talked -- who had 3 agreed about moving into the Park and you had said Glenn 4 George was one of those people. 5 Do you -- can you recall who else was at 6 that meeting or who else was having that discussion? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Let's see. I think Abe would have 11 been there, Abe George. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: And I'm not too sure who else all 14 would have been there, just everybody. 15 Q: Okay. Can you help us -- can you 16 help us -- would everybody be five (5) people, ten (10) 17 people, fifteen (15) people, twenty (20) people, more? 18 A: I don't know maybe everybody that was 19 down there that night, probably the same people. 20 Q: Down there which night? 21 A: The night Dudley got shot. 22 Q: Okay. Can -- about how many people 23 would that have been? 24 A: Probably about two (2) dozen. 25 Q: Two (2) dozen, twenty-four (24)
1831 people. Okay. And were the -- can you tell us whether 2 the people who were at that meeting or having that 3 discussion on September the 4th, whether or not they were 4 all people who were living at the base? 5 A: Yes, everybody was living at the 6 base, I think. 7 Q: Okay. So there were no visitors at 8 that meeting and no outside people at that meeting? 9 A: There could have been. 10 Q: Okay. And you told the Commission on 11 September 29th that there seemed to be an unusual build 12 up of police on the Labour Day weekend at the Park. And 13 I was just trying to understand what you meant by that. 14 Can you -- how many -- first of all, if 15 you know, how many people -- how many police would 16 normally be in the park or the park area on -- a long 17 weekend or a holiday? 18 A: Maybe one (1) or two (2). 19 Q: Okay. And how many police were there 20 on that Labour Day weekend? 21 A: Quite a few. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: My brother was arrested like not too 24 long before that and there was undercover police officers 25 coming out of the woodwork that day.
1841 Q: Okay. When was your brother 2 arrested? 3 A: I'm not sure. It was just before the 4 Park closed anyways, it would be within a month before. 5 Q: Okay. And were you there when he was 6 arrested? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. And when you say, there were 9 undercover police coming out of the woodworks, did you 10 see -- first of all, do you know whether or not he was in 11 the Park at the time he was arrested? 12 A: Yes, he was. 13 Q: Okay. And you've told us that you 14 weren't there? 15 A: No. 16 Q: So when you say there were undercover 17 police coming from out of the woodwork, what are you 18 basing that on? 19 A: He's the one that told me. 20 Q: Okay. So you don't have any personal 21 knowledge of anything like that? 22 A: No, no. 23 Q: Okay. And you told us that once you 24 were in the park you took security measures and I think 25 you told -- at least my understanding from your evidence
1851 was that that sort of fell into two (2) areas. 2 One (1) was by setting up observation 3 posts and one (1) was by having items with you that you 4 could use to defend yourself. Is that fair? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yeah, I guess. Another part was we 9 secured the Park to make sure there was no other campers 10 inside the Park. 11 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not 12 any steps were taken to barricade any of the gates so 13 that people couldn't get in? 14 A: Barricade the gates? 15 Q: Yes? And just to go -- let me ask 16 you some specific questions. I understand that there 17 would have been an area by which you could access the 18 park? 19 A: Well -- 20 Q: Going through Matheson Drive? 21 A: Yeah, we opened up a gate on Matheson 22 Drive and we opened up a gate on -- both of them were on 23 Matheson Drive, I guess. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: Just on the east end and on the south
1861 end. 2 Q: Right. And do you know whether or 3 not any steps were taken to barricade either or those 4 areas after you went into the Park, so that people 5 couldn't get in? 6 A: No, they've got a gate across 7 Matheson Drive -- 8 Q: Right. 9 A: -- which they used to close after a 10 certain time at night. And then we just closed that off 11 and built the -- we had an observation post right there. 12 Q: Right. 13 A: That was right on Matheson Drive. 14 Q: And that was the observation post at 15 Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And then you said there was one by 18 the water treatment plant? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And one by the sandy parking lot? 21 A: There was a couple by the sandy 22 parking lot. 23 Q: A couple by the sandy parking lot. 24 And I take it that before you went into the Park you had 25 decided that you would need to take some steps to secure
1871 yourself in the Park; is that right? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: I don't know what you mean. 6 Q: Well, you get into the Park -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- then you've told us that people 9 had brought -- sorry, that people brought things in with 10 them to defend themselves and you talked about baseball 11 bats and steel pipes and that kind of thing? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you told us that people set up 14 observation posts? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I -- I understand from what 17 you're saying now that there would have been at least 18 five (5) of them? Two (2) by the sandy parking lot, one 19 (1) by the store, one (1) by the -- oh, sorry, and there 20 was also one (1) by the store; right? 21 A: One (1) by the store? Yeah. 22 Q: Yeah. And the water treatment -- 23 A: No, that's -- that's the one -- 24 that's one (1) of the one's by the sandy parking lot is 25 the one by the store.
1881 Q: Okay. And so you -- so there was a 2 decision had been made to put together to -- to have 3 observation posts established and there was a decision 4 had been made, I take it, that people might need to 5 defend themselves and that they should be prepared for 6 that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I'm just saying, that must have 9 been something you talked about before you went into the 10 Park? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I'm not really sure. I don't think 15 so. We just kind of went in there and see how things 16 were going to go. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And that's just pretty much where we 19 were -- where we -- our best vantage points were to see 20 if there's anything coming. 21 Q: Right. So do I take it then that the 22 decision to set up the observation posts happened after 23 you got into the Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And how was that decision
1891 made? How did you decide to do that? 2 A: Just we went and closed off those two 3 (2) gates. We closed off the gate to the entrance to the 4 Park and we closed off the gate at Matheson Drive and 5 then pretty much just stuck -- stuck around and stayed 6 there. 7 Q: Yeah. But in terms of setting up 8 observation posts, I mean, you've told us that there 9 weren't those kind of security measures at the base or in 10 the built-up area of the base? 11 A: No. 12 Q: This was something new? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: So I'm just trying to find out how -- 15 how that was -- how you decided to do that and what -- 16 and when you decided to do that? 17 A: When? Was -- 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: -- whenever the last of the people 20 went through. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: When we were right behind them and 23 somebody stayed there make sure nobody come back through 24 and then just kept on all the way across. 25 Q: Right. So you entered, you've told
1901 us, at the northeast side of the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And it sounds to me like the 4 observation posts you set up were on the west side of the 5 Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: So, somehow people decided to set up 8 observation posts on the west side of the park? 9 A: Yeah. As they were going across. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Because there was -- the first 12 observation point would have been behind the water 13 treatment plant and then there would have been another 14 one at the corner of the beach. And another one probably 15 over by the parking lot. 16 And then there's like -- there's still, 17 kind of, surrounding the police right now. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Because they're all grouped up around 20 the ticket booth or whatever. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And they're just -- as soon as they 23 took off when we finished off with the Matheson Drive one 24 and the -- 25 Q: Okay.
1911 A: -- entrance to the park. 2 Q: Sure. Often when a group of people 3 are doing something together they would plan out what 4 they're going to do or they'd talk about what they're 5 going to do so you make sure that all the bases get 6 covered; did that happen in this case? 7 A: Not really. We were just -- just 8 pretty much everybody knew what to do. 9 Q: Just by half chance they just knew? 10 A: Yeah. Just everybody knew we've got 11 to prevent them from coming back in over here so as we 12 went along, somebody stayed there and -- 13 Q: Okay. And you've told us about some 14 of the items that people had that they took into the Park 15 and I listed them earlier. I'm going to suggest that you 16 also took flares into the park; is that fair? 17 A: Could have, yeah. 18 Q: Yeah? And I think you've also told 19 us that you had a lot of fireworks that you took into the 20 Park? 21 A: Yes, everybody always had fireworks. 22 Q: Yeah. And I'm going to suggest they 23 also had spotlights -- 24 A: Yes -- 25 Q: -- that came into the Park? Yes.
1921 And by this time, that is by September of 1995, you'd 2 been living with a lot of those people that you entered 3 the Park with, for quite some time? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: One (1) of them was your brother? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you've told us a number of the 8 other of them, were your relatives? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I take it that you were very 11 close to them? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yeah. You had shared a lot of things 14 with them over the course of time? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yeah. And you'd been through tough 17 times together? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And I also take it that you 20 and the others, or at least you, were aware that there 21 were a number of people who were against your being at 22 the base, and against your being in the built-up area, 23 and would be against your being in the Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yes. And you knew that a lot of
1931 people felt very strongly about that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yeah. And one (1) of those people, I 4 take it, was Gerald George? You told us on September 5 30th -- 6 A: Yeah -- 7 Q: -- that he was not a fellow First 8 Nations person, he'd been quite vocal in the newspaper 9 against you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And when Bonnie Bressette was giving 12 us evidence, she told us that on the night of September 13 6th, Tom Bressette wouldn't or couldn't, come down to the 14 Park. 15 I take it that Tom Bressette, or do you 16 know, would have been someone against your being in the 17 built-up area in the Park? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: We heard on a scanner that night that 21 they were in contact with Tom Bressette and he was on 22 board. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: That's what we heard on the scanner. 25 Q: And I take it that felt like a
1941 betrayal? 2 A: Well, we didn't expect him to back us 3 up because he disowned us so many other times before. 4 Q: Sure. And I'm going to suggest to 5 you that with all of that going on, many people not 6 wanting you to be where you were in the base and the 7 built up area, and for sure in the park, that it would 8 have been a little isolated and a little lonely, being 9 the people who were going to take over the Park? 10 You knew that everybody wasn't with you, 11 right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You knew a lot of people were against 14 you? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: You knew you couldn't count on a lot 17 of people for support? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And so really it was kind of, 20 you guys against a lot of other people? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yeah. And I take it from listening 23 to you talk about Gerald George, that you had quite 24 strong feelings about people who were against you being 25 in the built-up area in the Park?
1951 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I don't know -- yeah I guess. 4 Q: Yeah -- 5 A: I didn't have really strong feelings, 6 it didn't really matter to me what they thought. 7 Q: Okay. I guess I was -- 8 A: It's just that I know that they ain't 9 going to be there to support us. So I'm not going to go 10 ask them for any help and if you see them around you know 11 they're not going to be there -- 12 Q: To help you? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And I take it that the people who you 15 could really count on, would be the people that you went 16 into the Park with? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that you would have to back them 19 up and they'd have to back you up? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yeah. And on September the 30th, you 22 told Mr. Rosenthal in response to a question, he was sort 23 of talking to you about how and when you'd defend 24 yourself. And one of the things that you had said and I 25 think it was quite fairly, that if you were pushed into a
1961 corner, if you really had to, that you would pick up some 2 guns and fight back? 3 A: I said we'd pick up weapons or 4 whatever -- 5 Q: Sure, whatever -- 6 A: -- you'd use to defend yourselves. 7 Q: Sure. 8 A: Like, I -- we made a handful of sand 9 a weapon -- 10 Q: Sure -- 11 A: -- that kind of left a police officer 12 not able to do his job. 13 Q: Sure. And or you'd have a stick or a 14 pipe -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- or a rock? 17 A: Whatever. 18 Q: Sure, whatever. And if you had, if 19 you absolutely had to and you had a gun there, you'd 20 defend yourself? And I'm not suggesting to you in the 21 Park. I'm putting to you as a proposition, if you were 22 back in -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 24 minute. Yes, Mr. Ross...? 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I think that is a bad
1971 proposition to be putting to this witness. He's here to 2 give evidence on what he did or did not do in 1995 but to 3 incrementally work this witness to a point where you 4 start by saying, if you're pushed into a corner you'll 5 defend yourself, anybody does that. 6 And then to take that from there and 7 incrementally get the quantum leap to an, "If you had a 8 gun you would," I think it's an improper question. And 9 under different circumstances, I would have ventured to 10 suggest to my witness that he should not answer it. But 11 I will leave that to you, Mr. Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he 13 didn't have a gun and he didn't say that he had a gun. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, on 15 September the 30th, in response to questions from Counsel 16 and if it assists I'm happy to go through it, -- 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Page 139. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: -- Mr. Rosenthal asked 21 this witness some questions about the circumstances under 22 which and how he would defend himself. And I note no 23 objection was raised by anyone. 24 And I'll go through it. And I'm going to 25 start on page 138. And it starts at:
1981 "Q: But even then for self defence 2 you didn't bring any guns? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And you've told us, I gather, that 5 that was something that you didn't want 6 to get into, anything like, for sure? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Even for self defence; is that 9 correct? 10 A: Even for self defence? No, well, 11 no, I don't -- I don't know. No, I 12 guess not. Unless I, like, really, 13 really wanted to, I guess. Get right 14 pushed, right into a corner, I suppose, 15 then maybe pick up some guns and try to 16 fight back." 17 And that's evidence that this witness has 18 already given. No one certainly objected to that and I 19 think I'm entitled to ask him a little bit about those 20 circumstances. 21 I don't intent to do it for a very long 22 time. But I intend to ask some questions about it, Mr. 23 Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 25 that's on the record and I do recall that examination.
1991 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. Right. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: And, Mr. -- Mr. Simon, there's no -- 6 I'm -- just so you are clear, I'm not asking you a 7 question about did you or would you do it in the Park, 8 I'm just asking you questions about the answer that you 9 gave to Mr. Rosenthal; okay? 10 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 11 Q: Yeah. Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. You 13 heard what was read out and what you said to Mr. 14 Rosenthal earlier, that's what she's going to ask about. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: And no one -- no one's 16 quibbling that with Mr. Simon as you heard other people 17 say, of course, but I'll do it. I'm not fussing about 18 that. 19 I'm just going to ask you some questions 20 about that. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: And I would take -- I take it that if 24 people that were very dear to you were pushed right into 25 a corner or were in danger that you would defend them?
2001 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'll try this 2 time, Mr. Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Yes, 4 Mr. Henderson. 5 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: This is clearly 6 so irrelevant to the circumstances -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- of what 9 occurred in an around September the 6th, 1995 that we are 10 going far afield. We're being unfair to the Witness. 11 We're trying to make him out to be a person that he 12 clearly isn't in response, as My Friend Mr. Ross said, to 13 a question that any of us would have answered the same 14 way. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. That's 16 -- but, again, that's why I don't see any great harm to 17 the question. Any of us would have answered it the same 18 way and I don't see the harm in asking it. 19 It was asked and he answered it and nobody 20 objected when Mr. Rosenthal asked. 21 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: No, that's not my 22 point, Mr. Commissioner. Not what Mr. Rosenthal asked 23 and not what Mr. Simon obviously quite honestly answered. 24 The question is, are we investigating -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where does
2011 it go? 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- a hypothetical 3 set of circumstances as to what a number of actors, and 4 we have quite a cast to come yet, might have done in 5 different circumstances -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- if the facts 8 were different -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: And I'm simply 11 submitting, we don't have time for this. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think 13 you're right about that. But unfortunately Mr. Rosenthal 14 asked a question and she's simply asking them what the 15 answer was, I presume, and she's pursuing exactly the 16 same question that Mr. Rosenthal asked. 17 Perhaps he shouldn't have asked it. 18 Perhaps somebody should have objected at that time. I 19 don't know. But I -- Counsel has said that she does not 20 intend to pursue this -- 21 MS. KAREN JONES: I don't intend to be 22 long, Mr. Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You just 24 want to ask him what he meant, I presume, or -- 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure.
2021 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- questions 2 about what he has already said on the record. It's not 3 something new that you're asking him. Do you have any -- 4 does my Commission Counsel have any advice to give me as 5 Commissioner in this matter? 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Henderson's point 7 is well taken. The issue here isn't whether or not the 8 question was asked and answered, but it happened to have 9 been, but whether there is any sufficient probative value 10 to pursuing that line of inquiry any further than has 11 already been done. 12 In my respectful submission this is not 13 relevant to the Inquiry's mandate given Mr. Simon's clear 14 evidence that he did not have any guns at the Park at any 15 time, much less the evening of September the 6th and 16 indeed wasn't in the confrontation, in fact. He was 17 observing it. 18 So in that respect, the issue is whether 19 this line of inquiry has been exhausted and the most 20 probative value possible has been achieved. In my 21 submission, it has been and going further in these 22 circumstances will not be of assistance. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: If I may just add, I 25 would agree with My Friend's submission that there's no
2031 value in pursuing this line of questioning any further. 2 I would simply add that I believe Mr. Simon has shown 3 what he would do when he's backed into a corner and -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- that we have that 6 evidence. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's the 12 question that you were going to ask? 13 MS. KAREN JONES: The question, Mr. 14 Commissioner, the area that I am exploring is the area 15 about the relationship between the people who entered 16 into the Park, their relationship with others and how 17 they felt the need or if they felt the need to look after 18 each other -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: To support 20 each other. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and to protect each 22 other. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You brought 24 that out already. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes.
2041 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And they 2 said they would. I'm asking where you're going now. 3 You've already done that. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: And I had some further 5 questions to ask Mr. Simon, given he was talking -- he 6 agreed that or said that when pushed into a corner, if he 7 was personally in danger, what he would do -- what he did 8 -- what he would do. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: And I'm just going to 11 ask him a couple more questions along that line. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 13 we've gone far enough down that road. In retrospect and 14 hindsight I think that you've got sufficient information 15 on that point. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He would do, 18 I think Counsel have said what almost anybody would do in 19 similar circumstances. I don't think we need -- 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 21 don't think it's extraordinary evidence. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know that. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: I don't. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then if you 25 don't --
2051 MS. KAREN JONES: And I don't think it's 2 -- and I don't think it's so objectionable to ask 3 questions about it -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you don't 5 think it's extraordinary then let's move on. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 8 need to pursue it. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: And Mr. Simon, I had some questions 13 to ask you about buildings in the Park because I'm not 14 entirely clear about what all buildings were in the Park. 15 And one (1) of the documents that we've 16 looked at or that we've been given by the Commission is a 17 document that sets out a proposal for the plan of the 18 Park. 19 And I'm not suggesting to you that it's an 20 accurate representation of every building in the Park but 21 there's a couple of buildings that are noted there and I 22 just want to see if you can help us with -- were they 23 actually constructed and were they there when you were in 24 the Park. 25 And I'm wondering, Mr. Commissioner, if I
2061 could get Mr. Millar to put up 1007520? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MS. KAREN JONES: I was just hoping to 6 look at a little bit more on the west side of the -- 7 yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is 9 1007520? 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, it is, yes. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 13 Q: Now, you'll see, Mr. Simon, on that 14 map -- 15 A: Hmm hmm, yes -- 16 Q: -- where it says, entrance structure, 17 and I take it that's one (1) of the main entrances that 18 leads into the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yeah. And can you tell us, whether 21 or not, in September of 1995 there was a structure there? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay.
2071 A: There was just a gateway right there. 2 Q: Okay. And when you follow along that 3 road, moving east into the Park, can you tell us what the 4 first building you come to is? 5 A: There's a ticket booth thing, right 6 about here. 7 Q: Okay. And I was trying to get a 8 better sense, when you said the ticket booth, of what the 9 ticket booth looked like? And we had located some photos 10 and I'm wondering if I can put the photo up and you can 11 tell us what building we're looking at. And that is four 12 forty-six (446) to four forty-eight (448) of the photo 13 brief, Mr. Millar. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: There we go. Because I looked at 18 that picture and it said, "Kiosk entrance to the Park." 19 can you tell us where that building is, in the Park, or 20 do you know? 21 A: It's the second place I pointed to on 22 the map. 23 Q: That's the ticket booth? 24 A: The entrance control or whatever. 25 Q: Okay. Sorry, can we just go back to
2081 the -- to the map? Okay. 2 A: It's right there. 3 Q: And is that something other and 4 different than the ticket booth? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No, it's the same thing? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And do you know, Mr. Simon, on 9 September the 4th of 1995, I'm all done looking at that 10 picture, so -- I'm done looking at that, thanks very 11 much. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Do you know, whether or not, on 16 September the 4th, of 1995, a group of people from the 17 base or the built-up area, went into the Park before you 18 did? And when I say, You did, I'm talking about -- 19 you've told us about your driving alongside the Park and 20 entering in on the east side? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yeah. Do you know, whether or not, 23 another group of people went into the Park before you did 24 through another entrance? 25 A: No, not to my knowledge.
2091 Q: Okay. 2 A: Not that I know of. 3 Q: Okay. Do you know, whether or not, 4 when you got to the east side of the Park, and you were 5 going to enter the Park, whether or not, there were any 6 people from the base or from the built-up area, who were 7 already in the Park on the other side of the fence? 8 A: No, I don't know of anybody -- 9 Q: Okay. Do you recall one (1) way or 10 the other, or was there no one there? 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think the Witness -- 12 MS KAREN JONES: Okay. Why -- sorry let 13 me go back a little bit. 14 Sometimes when people say, no or something 15 in that line, there's sort of two (2) reasons that they 16 say it. Either it's because they can't recall or it's 17 because they don't know, or it's because it didn't 18 happen. 19 And I'm just trying to figure out which of 20 those three (3) things is true. So when I ask you if 21 there were, in essence, other occupiers already in the 22 Park on the other side of the fence -- 23 A: And I said, no, not to the best of my 24 knowledge. 25 Q: Okay, so you don't -- you don't
2101 recall seeing them. 2 A: I don't recall -- 3 Q: Or they weren't there -- 4 A: I don't recall anyone. 5 Q: You don't recall -- 6 A: I don't recall seeing anybody out 7 there and I don't know if anybody was in there. I don't 8 know. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I just don't know. 11 Q: Okay. And you had told us when you 12 were at the gate on the east side of the Park and you 13 were wanting to go in, that there was a police or some 14 police and Ministry of Natural Resource people on the 15 other side of the gate. Is that right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And did you have any -- you or 18 anyone you heard, did you have any discussions or any 19 interactions with those people on the other side of the 20 fence? 21 That is, the police or the Ministry of 22 Natural Resources people. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2111 A: No, not that -- not that I remember. 2 Q: And were you right at the fence? 3 A: Yes, I was. 4 Q: And were you able to see everything 5 that was going on? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: On the other side? Okay. And 8 because -- at -- one (1) of the officers who was at the 9 fence at the time gave a statement about what he says 10 occurred and this is for the assistance of Counsel, it's 11 Document 2003620. 12 And it's a statement by Constable Jack 13 (phonetic) and he says that he was at the entrance and he 14 saw a male person trying to break the chain. And he saw 15 -- he -- and he says that he advised that person to back 16 off and a confrontation ensued. 17 Was there any confrontation that you saw 18 at the gate when you tried -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- to enter the Park? 21 A: No. The police were on the other 22 side of the gate and -- 23 Q: Sure. 24 A: -- we were on this side of the gate. 25 Q: Sure.
2121 A: And we snapped the gate and we went 2 in. 3 Q: Okay. And you also told us on 4 September 29th that when the chain was being cut, when 5 you were breaking into the Park, somebody said something 6 to you. But you also told us that no one told you to 7 leave or that you were trespassing. Is that right? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: Okay. And Constable Wayland 10 (phonetic) who was another officer who was present on the 11 other side of the fence and for the assistance of 12 Counsel, his statement is at -- is Document Number 13 2003958. He said in his statement that he confronted the 14 natives who then stopped trying to remove the lock. 15 And he also said that Sergeant Corisek 16 (phonetic) who was one (1) of his fellow officers talked 17 to several people and tried to convince them to leave the 18 lock alone. 19 Do you have any recollection of that? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: No. No, not to my knowledge. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Because if somebody come and told us
2131 that we were trespassing we would have laughed at him 2 because we weren't inside the Park and we weren't 3 trespassing it. 4 Q: Sure. 5 A: And then by the time we got in there, 6 all the police were already in their vehicles and 7 cruising down the road, so they never told us anything 8 before we went in. 9 Q: Okay. Now you told us on September 10 the 29th that just after dark on September the 4th that 11 there was an altercation between Judas George or Roderick 12 George and the OPP. 13 Now I take it from your comment that you 14 were there at the time? 15 A: Yes, I was. 16 Q: Okay. And I think you told the 17 Commission that Judas George used a little stick or a 18 little thin piece of stick -- 19 A: Yes, he did. 20 Q: -- to break the police cruiser 21 window? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then the police left? And I take 24 it that there was more than one (1) police cruiser near 25 the permit building at the time?
2141 A: Yes, there was. 2 Q: Yes, there was. And did you see at 3 or about that time anyone throwing flares at the police 4 or the -- at the police that were in that area? 5 A: Yes, I did. 6 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 7 you that several flares were thrown at the officers? 8 A: I'm going to -- I only recall one 9 (1). 10 Q: Okay. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 15 a number of the occupiers who were around the police and 16 the police cruisers had been drinking? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. So if we hear evidence that 19 they had, you would disagree with that? 20 A: I'm not saying that everybody was 21 drunk that was standing there because I never, ever 22 drank. 23 Q: Okay. I'm not saying -- 24 A: I didn't drink. 25 Q: -- everybody was drunk either. I'm
2151 just saying that a number of the people, the occupiers 2 who were around -- 3 A: A very small number, maybe. Like, 4 there's alcoholics everywhere. 5 Q: Sure. Sure. And I'm going to 6 suggest to you that what happened was that Judas George 7 or Roderick George, yelled at the officers to leave the 8 park and he then shattered the window of a cruiser with a 9 large stick? 10 A: No. It was just a little weeny 11 stick. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: But Judas is a great big guy and he 14 would just go like that and smash a window. 15 Q: He'd smash a window -- 16 A: He doesn't need a very big stick to 17 smash a window. 18 Q: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 20 Ross? 21 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Again, in fairness to 22 the witness, I believe that after it went to this idea of 23 a little stick, it was -- it was reduced down to a part 24 of a crutch. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
2161 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: So we understand 2 clearly it is a part of a crutch. I think it was 3 clarified for Ms. Vella. Thank you. So we're not 4 thinking of a twig. We're thinking of a big man with a 5 part of a crutch. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 7 you told us it was, okay? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 11 Q: One (1) of the officers who was 12 present at the scene in his statement described the stick 13 that Judas George -- that Judas George used -- or 14 Roderick George used as a large walking stick; do you 15 agree with that or do you disagree with that? 16 A: I don't know, I would kind of 17 disagree. It's a small walking stick, I would say. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Well, yeah, it wasn't a great big 20 humungous thing. It was just like a little skinny stick, 21 probably three (3) or four (4) feet long. 22 Q: A three (3) or four (4) foot long 23 stick? Okay. And I'm going to suggest to you that there 24 were more occupiers in the area than there were police; 25 do you agree with that?
2171 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: I guess so. 4 Q: Yeah. And so after the police had 5 had a flare or flares thrown at them and had the window 6 of a cruiser broken, they left; isn't that right? 7 A: Yes, they did. 8 Q: Yeah. And I'm going to suggest to 9 you that at no time had any of those police raised a hand 10 against any of the people that were surrounding them? 11 A: No. 12 Q: No? And that, in fact, they were 13 just sitting there in their cruisers or standing by their 14 cruisers? 15 A: They were pretty much standing around 16 their cruisers, just standing -- I don't know in a big 17 group. 18 Q: Yeah. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And you told the Commissioner on 23 September the 29th that pretty well everybody in the Park 24 had a weapon, a baseball bat or a club of some sort. 25 Do you recall that?
2181 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And I think you told us that even 3 your mom might have had one? 4 A: Could have. 5 Q: Okay. And I take it that the women 6 who were in the Park, as well as the men, were prepared 7 to defend themselves? 8 A: I don't know. I don't really know 9 what goes on in the mind of a woman, so... 10 Q: Well, sure, but, if -- you had talked 11 about even your mom might have had a weapon, a baseball 12 bat or a club. 13 I take it that she would carry that to 14 defend herself or to defend someone else? 15 A: I don't know, sure. 16 Q: Sure -- 17 A: Maybe. 18 Q: And -- 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With all due respect 20 My Friend is now looking to extract speculation from this 21 witness. His evidence is that his mother may have had a 22 club. He's not sure. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And now he's being ask 25 to speculate --
2191 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What she was 2 going to do with it. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- what she was going 4 to do with something that has not been established that 5 she had -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That she may 7 or may not have had. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- and indeed, I'm not 9 sure that that was established in the evidence of Marcia 10 Simon. 11 And also My Friend, keeps referring to 12 weapons, when the witness has been very clear as to what 13 he is describing, which could be characterized as 14 weapons, namely clubs and bats. I think in fairness to 15 the witness that that should be recognized. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. He 17 didn't know that his mother had a quote "weapon", he just 18 thought she might have. So it's difficult to ask what he 19 thinks she might have done with a weapon that she might 20 have had. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry, just for the 22 latter point, I thought I had been quite careful when I 23 said, a weapon to say a baseball bat or a club or some 24 kind. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, right.
2201 MS. KAREN JONES: I thought I was being 2 quite clear about that. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Can I take it, or can you tell us, or 6 do you remember whether or not, your mom was at the Park 7 on September the 4th, September the 5th or September the 8 6th? 9 A: Yes, she was there. 10 Q: Okay. Was she one (1) of the people 11 that came into the Park with you on the evening of 12 September the 4th? 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: Okay. Do you remember seeing her in 15 the Park on September the 4th? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Her and my grandmother were driving 19 around. 20 Q: Okay. And did you have any 21 conversations with them then? 22 A: Probably. 23 Q: Okay. Do you recall what it was? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And how about on September the
2211 5th, was your mom in the Park? 2 A: Probably. 3 Q: Do you know? Do you remember? 4 A: I imagine she would be there, like I 5 don't know -- I don't really -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- recall. 8 Q: One of the things, Mr. Simon, that's 9 hard and it's really hard when something happens so long 10 ago is to remember things. But, it's helpful for the 11 Commission and it's helpful for me, to know if you 12 actually recall something or if you don't recall 13 something. 14 Because otherwise it's not really clear 15 what you were supposing or what you actually remember. 16 And it just makes it easier if we can, sort of, figure 17 out what's actually you recall in your mind. 18 Can you -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me -- 20 yes, do you have question or objection? 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Ms. Simon has taken 22 the stand and has told us when she was in the Park. I'm 23 not sure how useful it is to ask her son. 24 If My Friend wants to ask about what 25 conversations he recalls having with her then that would
2221 be fair. But, I don't see the use of asking when his 2 mother was in the Park. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, she 4 asked if he knew if she was in the Park and he said he 5 didn't recall. 6 Yes...? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: And I asked him if they 8 had a conversation and he -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That was on 10 the September 4th court date. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: -- didn't recall. 12 Yeah. And I'm just asking the same thing on the 5th. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: And so, do you recall whether or not 16 your Mom was in the Park on September the 5th? 17 A: I'm saying she probably was. 18 Q: Okay. And when you told the 19 Commission that even your Mom might have had a weapon, 20 that is, a club or a bat, do you recall whether or not 21 she did? 22 A: I don't recall if she did or not. I 23 don't think so. 24 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether any 25 of the women that you saw in the Park on September 4th,
2231 5th or 6th were carrying weapons; that is, a bat or a 2 club of some sort? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No? Okay. So when you told the 5 Commission that pretty well everybody had a weapon, what 6 did you mean by "pretty well everybody"? 7 A: Well, it was the young guys that were 8 taking over the Park. 9 Q: Okay. And you've also told us that 10 on September the 4th that firecrackers went on and off 11 all throughout the night in the Park. 12 Do you remember that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I think you've also told us that 15 there were firecrackers going off during the day on 16 September the 5th? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the night of September the 5th? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And September the 6th? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Now who brought the 23 firecrackers into the Park? 24 A: I don't recall. 25 Q: Okay. I take it from your
2241 description that firecrackers were going off during the 2 day and at night time on the 4th, the 5th and during the 3 day on the 6th that there must have been a lot of 4 firecrackers? 5 A: There's a store where everybody can 6 go. The hole-in-the-fence store, everybody calls it. 7 They sell fireworks there, I think. 8 Q: Sorry, there's a what? 9 A: There's a store along the fence -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Ipperwash. People would jump the 12 fence and walk across there and buy firecrackers and 13 fireworks and whatever and... 14 Q: Okay. And right behind you, Mr. 15 Simon, is a map and I think it's a map of the 16 intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway. 17 Can you show us on that map where the 18 store was? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. Where was the store in 21 relation to the Park then? 22 A: Be round on the floor somewhere. 23 Q: It was -- 24 A: It would be on the floor somewhere -- 25 Q: I understand. So what you're saying
2251 is the store would have been west of the Park? 2 A: It would have been south of the Park. 3 Q: South of the Park. Was it close to 4 or on Highway 21? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No. Was it part way between Highway 7 21 and East Parkway? I'm just trying to get a sense of 8 where it would be. 9 A: It's on Army Camp Road, in between -- 10 yeah. 11 Q: Yeah. Between 21 and East Parkway. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yeah, okay. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 15 to stop there for a minute. 16 Are you -- are you getting tired or are 17 you okay? I mean, we're fine to continue but I want to 18 know if you're feeling well enough to continue. You've 19 been on the witness stand all day and are you okay to 20 continue for another fifteen (15) or twenty (20) minutes 21 or so, or half hour? Or are you -- have you had enough 22 for the day? 23 THE WITNESS: I don't know. Is she 24 getting close to being done? 25 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm actually not -- I'm
2261 actually not that close Mr. Simon, so -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 3 don't -- 4 MS. KAREN JONES: If you're -- 5 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: If you're tired by 7 now -- 8 THE WITNESS: I'm getting -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: -- then you should say 10 so and we'll -- if Mr. Commissioner is offering you the 11 option, you can say that and we can end for the day. 12 It's not going to make a big difference for when you come 13 back. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume 15 that before I asked the question, that we're probably 16 going to have to come back in any event. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So if that's 20 the case, have you had enough? 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. And I 23 think that you and I might be in good shape but I think 24 we should consider it's been a long day and -- 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes --
2271 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it is 2 twenty-five to 5:00. I think we should end it now. 3 Yes, Mr. Millar, do have some information 4 regarding what's going on tomorrow? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, I -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: This will -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 10 continue at -- unfortunately we don't continue with your 11 evidence tomorrow. You know that? 12 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We continue 14 with your evidence next Monday morning. 15 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 16 17 (WITNESS RETIRES) 18 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, Commissioner. 20 What we're going to do is adjourn this part of the 21 hearing until next Monday which is, I guess, October 18th 22 at 10:30, our usual Monday morning start. 23 And tomorrow and Thursday we have the 24 indigenous knowledge forum which starts at 9:30 in the 25 morning at -- in the Ballroom at the Forest Golf and
2281 Country Hotel here in Forest. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Any other 3 information that we need -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- just 6 that? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I just wanted to let-- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I think it'll run 10 until five o'clock on each of the days. I'm not quite 11 certain but I think that's the plan. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much. We're going to adjourn for the day. We look 14 forward to seeing everybody here tomorrow morning at 9:30 15 in the Ballroom of the Forest Golf and Country Club and 16 we'll continue with Mr. Simon's evidence next Monday. 17 Thank you very much. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 19 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, October 13th at 9:30 20 a.m. 21 22 23 --- Upon adjourning at 4:35 p.m. 24 25
2291 2 Certified Correct, 3 4 5 6 7 ___________________ 8 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25