11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 30th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 18 (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) (np) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 GABRIEL JAMES DOXTATOR, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-in-Chief 8 by Ms. Susan Vella 7 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Vilko Zbogar 74 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 79 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 88 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 90 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer MacAleer 152 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 154 15 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 156 16 17 WESLEY GARDENER GEORGE, Sworn 18 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 161 19 20 Certificate of Transcript 259 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-94 Document 1005292 Tab 02, page 4 146, witness Mr. Gabriel Doxtator 5 Testimony at Deane trail April 03/97 6 past Memory recorded. 46 7 P-95 Stan Thompson drawing, Sept 20/95 marked 8 Gabriel Doxtator Exhibit 20 on top 9 right hand Corner of Exhibit, April/97 10 R. vs. Ken Deane trial. 62 11 P-96 Document 1002255, tab 01, page 05, 12 October 14/95, SIU statement by 13 Mr. Gabriel Doxtator 88 14 P-97 Document 2002409, Page 35, Schematic 15 Diagram of military Barracks, Camp 16 Ipperwash, Marked by witness Mr. Wesley 17 George, Nov 30/04 177 18 P-98 Stan Thompson drawing, Sept 20/95 19 marked by witness Mr. Wesley George 227 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 GABRIEL JAMES DOXTATOR, Resumed 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 12 Commissioner. Good morning, Mr. Doxtator. 13 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 14 15 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: Yesterday in the day, we left off and 17 you indicated that on Tuesday, September the 5th, you 18 returned to the Army Camp? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you slept overnight there? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And then the next day, 23 Wednesday, September the 6th, did you return to the Park 24 at any time? 25 A: Yes, I did.
81 Q: Approximately what time did you 2 return to the Park? 3 A: Maybe around nine or ten o'clock in 4 the morning. 5 Q: All right. And who did you arrive 6 with at the Park? 7 A: I'm not sure who I went down there 8 with that day. 9 Q: Okay. When you arrived at the Park, 10 did you -- were you apprised of any incident that had 11 occurred earlier that morning? 12 A: I don't know what had really happened 13 that morning. I was -- just what I was told. 14 Q: Okay. Were the picnic tables still 15 out in the sandy parking lot when you arrived? 16 A: No. The police had already removed 17 them. 18 Q: Did you speak to Dudley George at all 19 about what had occurred that morning? 20 A: A little bit, yeah. 21 Q: Do you recall what he told you? 22 A: Just most of the same things that 23 they had been telling me, that he was going to get it, 24 you know. Just been an ongoing thing. The police just 25 didn't like him or something.
91 Q: Now did you observe -- I should put 2 it this way. How -- how long did you stay in the Park on 3 Wednesday? 4 A: On Wednesday? What's that? The 5th, 5 5th? 6 Q: The 6th, the day -- yeah. 7 A: 6th? I stayed down there all day. 8 Q: All right. And did you -- did you go 9 to the Army Camp at any time during the course of the 10 day? 11 A: I might have. I can't remember. 12 Q: All right. Where would you say you 13 spent the majority of your time that day? 14 A: In the Park. 15 Q: And did you observe the -- any police 16 presence around the Park during the course of the day? 17 A: Yeah. There was pretty much the same 18 as every other day. 19 Q: All right. Did you observe any 20 helicopters? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And how many did you observe? 23 A: Just the one (1). 24 Q: Can you describe that? 25 A: It was the same one (1) that I
101 described yesterday. 2 Q: All right. So the yellow one (1)? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And did you observe on Wednesday 5 anyone throwing rocks at the helicopter? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you throw any rocks at the 8 helicopter? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Did you observe any presence -- 11 police presence out on the waters? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: What did you see? 14 A: Just a police boat. 15 Q: Still anchored out there? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And in terms of the number of police 18 officers and police cruisers that you saw during the 19 course of the day, how did that compare with the day 20 before? 21 A: They just made more of a presence, 22 you know, like they come through more often than they did 23 days before. 24 Q: They were passing by more often? 25 A: Yeah.
111 Q: All right. Were there still 2 checkpoints? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And was there a blockade? 5 A: Like where? On the road or? 6 Q: On Army Camp Road? 7 A: No, not that I can remember. 8 Q: Were there any new checkpoints that 9 day? A: No. 10 Q: All right. Now you indicated that 11 you may have returned to the Army Camp from time to time, 12 can you -- can you tell me what the purpose of returning 13 to the Army Camp was? 14 A: Usually to get food or whatever for 15 whoever's down in the Park. 16 Q: Okay. And we heard testimony from 17 Marlin Simon that he, over the course of the day, filled 18 up gasoline tanks with gas from the maintenance shed 19 pump. Did you observe that? 20 A: No, I didn't. 21 Q: Did you observe him transporting 22 tanks of gasoline? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Or did you see any tanks of gasoline 25 in the Park on that day?
121 A: I might have, but I was -- wasn't 2 really looking for them, so -- 3 Q: Okay, you may have noticed them? 4 A: Yeah, but I -- nothing that comes to 5 mind. 6 Q: All right. Do you know -- was there 7 any discussion that you're aware of as to what the 8 purpose of the -- the gasoline tanks was? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. Did the occupants 11 continue with the same types of defensive routines and 12 measures as you described occurred on Tuesday? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And this time, did you have any 15 direct participation in those measures? 16 A: No, not until later on that night. 17 Q: Not until later that night? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: All right. And did you observe any 20 firearms whatsoever in the Park that day? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you hear about the existence of 23 any firearms in that Park that day? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you bring any firearms into the
131 Park that day? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you have access to firearms on 4 either September the 5th or 6th, 1995? 5 A: No. 6 Q: To your knowledge, was there any -- 7 any Molotov cocktails or components of -- for Molotov 8 cocktails at the Park that day that you saw? 9 A: I never seen any, no. 10 Q: Okay. Did you observe any other man- 11 made weapons at the Park? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Were there any other members of the 14 Oneida Warrior Society at the Park on Wednesday that you 15 saw? 16 A: Just the ones that came. 17 Q: Came with you? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: So, Buck Doxtator was there. 20 A: Yeah. Chuck George and Al George. 21 Q: Okay. Did you -- was -- was Larry or 22 Dutchie French there as well? 23 A: Yeah, he was. 24 Q: Okay and I know you said he was from 25 different First Nation?
141 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Did you observe the presence of Les 3 and/or Russ Jewel? 4 A: I seen them around. 5 Q: Did you know them prior to this 6 event? 7 A: I've seen them around, but I never 8 really knew them. 9 Q: Okay. Do you know where they were 10 from? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. Now, do you know whether or 13 not Al George is now deceased? 14 A: Yes, he is. 15 Q: And do you know the locations of -- 16 of Chuck George? Do you know where he -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Where is he? 19 A: He's -- he's going out with my 20 sister. 21 Q: Okay. Is he at your settlement? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And Larry French? Do you know 24 where he is? 25 A: Yeah.
151 Q: Where is he? 2 A: He's living on the Chippewa Reserve. 3 Q: Okay. Now, what other kinds of 4 activities were going on at the Park that day aside from 5 the -- the defensive measures that you talked about? 6 A: Just the same thing that we do -- did 7 every other day, just sitting around talking, you know. 8 Q: Okay. And was there the same 9 composition of people -- men, women and children -- at 10 the Park, still? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Did you observe any -- any 13 interactions between the children and the police that 14 day? 15 A: Like what? 16 Q: Well, did you see them with mirrors? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And what were they doing with the 19 mirrors? 20 A: Just shining them -- the sunlight 21 into the light of the police. 22 Q: All right. And was this going on, on 23 and off during the day? Or how -- how was this going on? 24 A: It went on for a little while, maybe 25 half an hour or so.
161 Q: Okay. Did you recognize any of the - 2 - the people who had those mirrors? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Did you observe any attempts by 5 police officers to communicate with the Park occupants 6 during the course of the day? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And, similarly, did you see any 9 attempts by the Park occupants to communicate with the 10 police during the course of the day? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did you observe any direct exchanges 13 involving Dudley George and the police on Wednesday 14 during the day? 15 A: I could have, but I can't remember 16 anything right now. 17 Q: All right. Did you talk to Dudley 18 about anything besides the -- the picnic removal that 19 day? 20 A: I think we were talking about a 21 threat that was made to him. That's about it, but 22 that's -- 23 Q: All right. And that was around the 24 picnic table removal? 25 A: I think it was around the same time,
171 yeah. 2 Q: All right. Did you observe an 3 incident involving Stewart George or Worm and Gerald 4 George that day? 5 A: Yeah, I believe there was something 6 that happened there. 7 Q: All right. And did you see it? 8 A: I -- yeah, I seen what was happening, 9 but I didn't hear what was said. 10 Q: All right. Can you tell me, firstly, 11 approximately what time of day you saw this event? 12 A: I don't know what time it was. 13 Q: Was it daylight or nighttime? 14 A: Yeah, it was daylight, I think. 15 Q: Okay. And where were you when this 16 encounter occurred? How far away? 17 A: I was inside the gate at the Park. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: This happened on the -- on the turn 20 in the road. 21 Q: The event happened on the road? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Do you remember which of the roads? 24 A: This road here; it happened right 25 here somewhere.
181 Q: So, in the bend -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- between East Parkway Drive and 4 Army Camp Road? 5 A: Yes. 6 A: Approximately? All right. And, can 7 you just tell me what you observed? 8 A: I just seen them talking. 9 Q: Okay. And was -- where was Gerald 10 George when the conversation occurred? 11 A: In his car. 12 Q: What type of car was he driving? 13 A: I don't know what type of car it is. 14 Q: All right. And where was Stewart 15 George when this exchange occurred? 16 A: Standing outside the car. 17 Q: All right. And did you observe 18 anything other than them talking? 19 A: I think I seen a fist fly through the 20 window, that's about all. 21 Q: Whose fist flew through the window? 22 A: Stewart's. 23 Q: All right. And did the car depart? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Did you see it depart?
191 A: Yes. 2 Q: And where did it go? 3 A: It headed up to Army Camp Road. 4 Q: All right. So, it headed south on 5 Army Camp Road? 6 A: Yeah. Yeah, towards the barracks. 7 Q: And as the car left the scene, did 8 you see any rocks or sticks being thrown at it? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And did you throw any 11 rocks? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Do you know who did? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Who? 16 A: Pretty much everybody that was there. 17 Q: All right. And do you know whether 18 any of the rocks made contact with this car? 19 A: Yeah, I heard a window smash. 20 Q: Okay. Now, did you continue to watch 21 the car go down the road? 22 A: I couldn't see it any further because 23 there's a bush there. 24 Q: Okay. The bush interfered with your 25 sight?
201 A: Yeah, yes. 2 Q: All right. And so was that the end 3 of the incident that you witnessed? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And did everything else 6 happen during the course of the day? We're not getting 7 to the nighttime, but just during the day, of 8 significance on Wednesday, September the 6th, that you 9 witnessed? 10 A: No, not really, no. 11 Q: All right. I want to move then to 12 the later afternoon/early evening of Wednesday, September 13 the 6th, 1995. Were you still at the Park? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And at some point, did you see Cecil 16 Bernard George arrive at the Park? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: All right. And did you know him 19 prior to these events? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Approximately what time of day did 22 you first see Cecil Bernard George? 23 A: It was just before sunset. 24 Q: All right. And where did you see 25 him?
211 A: He drove up on the beach from Kettle 2 Point. 3 Q: All right. So, did he access the 4 Park from the beach? 5 A: I believe he drove up the -- up the 6 road there. 7 Q: Okay, so you're pointing to the sandy 8 road access -- 9 A: Yeah. Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And did he bring his -- his 11 vehicle into the Park? Did you see? 12 A: No, he was parked outside. 13 Q: All right. And were there still 14 police in that vicinity when he came up? 15 A: Yeah, there was a few around. 16 Q: All right. Did you see whether he 17 had any exchanges with the police at that time? 18 A: I don't know what happened. 19 Q: Okay. Now did he come into the Park? 20 A: Yeah. He walked in. 21 Q: And is that when you saw him? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Did you speak to him at all? 24 A: I never spoke to him but other people 25 did.
221 Q: All right. And did you overhear the 2 conversation? 3 A: I heard bits and pieces of it. 4 Q: All right. Did you learn anything 5 from Cecil Bernard George when he arrived at the Park? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Had you seen him at the Park prior to 8 this -- this time? 9 A: No. That was the first time I ever 10 seen him. 11 Q: Did you form any impression as to why 12 he decided to come to the Park at this time? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you observe Cecil Bernard George 15 bring anything into the Park with him? 16 A: Not at that point but he asked if we 17 -- if there was anything that we needed. 18 Q: All right. And what was the 19 response? 20 A: We said yeah we need some walkie 21 talkies and some scanners if you got them. 22 Q: Did he have them? 23 A: He had the scanners on him but he 24 didn't have no batteries. 25 Q: All right. And so what happened as a
231 result? 2 A: He went back to Kettle Point to get 3 batteries. 4 Q: Did he come back again? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I take it was later in the 7 evening? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Was it after sunset? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: All right. Did you observe him 12 actually re-enter the Park? 13 A: No. He was -- I was kind of -- went 14 for a ride or something. He was already there -- already 15 back. 16 Q: Okay. Now did you observe where his 17 truck was at this time? 18 A: It was in the Park at that point. 19 Q: The Park was -- the truck was in the 20 Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Do you know what kind of truck 23 that was? 24 A: A blue Chevy truck I think. 25 Q: Now to the best of your information,
241 knowledge and belief, did you -- did Cecil Bernard George 2 have any arms or weapons on him? 3 A: I didn't see any. 4 Q: Did he say he had any? 5 A: I didn't hear him say anything. 6 Q: And so he -- did he bring his 7 scanners with batteries? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did he bring any other objects 10 with him? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Did you listen to the 13 scanner at all? 14 A: Yes, I was listening to it. 15 Q: And did hear anything on the scanner? 16 A: Not at that point, no. 17 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: After you listened to the scanner? 22 A: All the police came and they started 23 to trying to intimidate us again. We start -- started 24 throwing rocks and everything back at them and throwing 25 our sticks and then we heard -- they left, then we heard
251 over the scanner that they were going to come in with the 2 riot squad. 3 Q: Was that information passed along to 4 you? 5 A: No, I actually heard it. 6 Q: Over the scanner? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And tell me again what it is 9 you heard? 10 A: That they were going to send in the 11 riot squad to remove us from the Park. 12 Q: All right. And as a result of 13 receiving that information, did you do anything? 14 A: We just got ready for them to come 15 and remove us. 16 Q: All right. And how did you get ready 17 for them? 18 A: We had sticks and stones -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- all piled up. 21 Q: Now just so I understand the timing 22 of -- of events. You indicated that the police came and 23 tried to intimidate you? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: When did that happen relative to this
261 conversation over the scanner? Before or after? 2 A: This was before. 3 Q: Okay. Can you describe for me 4 exactly what happened that you say was intimidating? 5 A: Just the words that they saying, you 6 know. People say things about us all the time and they 7 don't think about what they're saying. 8 Q: All right. And where were the police 9 when they uttered these words? 10 A: They were on the road. 11 Q: Which road? 12 A: On this road here. 13 Q: On Army Camp Road? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And were they on foot? 16 A: No, they were in their cars. 17 Q: They were in their cars. Okay, did 18 they get out of their cars at all? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And where did they go 21 when they came out of their cars? 22 A: They just stood out of their cars. 23 Q: All right. So they're on the road? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And they're -- they're communicating
271 words to you? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And you found those words to be 4 intimidating? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. But -- can -- can you share 7 with us what those words were? 8 A: No, I don't like to say those kind of 9 things. 10 Q: All right. You took them to be 11 intimidating? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. And was there any 14 response, then, from the occupants to this exchange? 15 A: Just that we start throwing rocks at 16 them. 17 Q: Okay. You started throwing rocks at 18 them and did you utter words in kind? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No? You just threw rocks? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And where were you when this 23 happened? 24 A: In the Park. 25 Q: Behind the fence?
281 A: Yes. 2 Q: And relative to the turnstile, where 3 were you? 4 A: Just -- I don't know. I could have 5 been anywhere. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I can't remember exactly where I was. 8 Q: Fair enough. And how long did this 9 exchange take place? 10 A: Maybe fifteen (15) minutes. 11 Q: All right. And then what happened at 12 the end of that exchange? 13 A: They left. 14 Q: And then you heard what you told us 15 over the scanner -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- about the riot squad? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then you prepared yourself for 20 the police coming in? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Now at this time, did you go 23 out into East Parkway Drive at all? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: And what was the purpose of you going
291 out? 2 A: We went on a recon mission to see how 3 far they were and if they were really coming. 4 Q: Okay. A "recon mission" being? 5 A: Just walking out in the dark in dark 6 clothes and keeping an eye out. 7 Q: All right. Did you have anything in 8 your hands when you went out onto East Parkway Drive? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Who else went with you? 11 A: There was me, Dave George, Buck 12 Doxtator and Slippery. 13 Q: Okay. And Slippery, just for the 14 record, is Cecil Bernard George? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. Now did you go out as a 17 group or were you separated? 18 A: We went out as a group. 19 Q: Okay. And how far did you actually 20 travel along East Parkway Drive? 21 A: Well, a little bit further up this 22 way. There's like a curve in the road -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- we went up as far as the curve. 25 Q: Okay.
301 A: And that's when we could see the -- 2 nothing but a -- like a big shield coming down the road. 3 Q: All right. So you're indicating that 4 you travelled up to the bend in the road, the first 5 bend -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- at East Parkway Drive? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Now at this time, are you 10 all together or is somebody in -- in advance of you? 11 A: No, we're all together. 12 Q: Okay. And did you have any walkie- 13 talkies with you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And was there communication on 16 the walkie-talkies? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And what was exchanged over the 19 walkie-talkies? 20 A: We just told them that they were 21 coming. 22 Q: Told who? 23 A: The people back in the Park. 24 Q: All right. Now what was your first 25 notice, if you will, of the police marching; was it
311 actually seeing them? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. And what did you see? 4 A: Just looked like a big windshield 5 going across -- across the road, you know. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: They were all lined up. 8 Q: All right. And were there -- were 9 there any lights on at this time -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- along the road? 12 A: No. 13 Q: So you're in darkness? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did you hear anything? 16 A: Just the stomping of their feet. 17 Q: And after you or the group 18 communicated back with the people in the Park, what did 19 you do? 20 A: We went back into the Park to get 21 ready. 22 Q: Okay. What did you do to get ready? 23 A: Just the same as we did before, grab 24 the sticks and the stones and got ready. 25 Q: All right. Now at some point in
321 time, were there spotlights -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- at the Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did you handle any of those 6 spotlights? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: And when did you handle a spotlight? 9 A: When the police start getting a 10 little bit closer. 11 Q: Closer to the Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And this is on their first march 14 towards the Park? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. And where did you -- on 17 the diagram behind you, which we've marked, I believe, as 18 P-93, is it? 19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Thank you. Can you tell me where you 23 were located on that map with the spotlight? And perhaps 24 you would take the -- is the microphone there? 25
331 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Gabe -- Mr. Doxtator, could you show 4 me where you were with the spotlight? 5 A: I was in this area right here. 6 Q: And would you please take the magic 7 marker and just mark a small "X" and the Number 1 to 8 signify where you were with the spotlight, and this is 9 when the police were marching down East Parkway Drive. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And what was the 12 spotlight hooked up to? 13 A: It was hooked up to a car battery. 14 Q: Whose car battery? 15 A: Warren George. 16 Q: Warren George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay, and where, physically, was the 19 spotlight? Were you holding it, or -- or -- 20 A: Yes, I was holding it. 21 Q: You were holding it. And you were 22 standing when you were holding it? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And where did you aim it? 25 A: At the police.
341 Q: So, along East Parkway Drive over the 2 sandy parking lot? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: How strong was this spotlight? 5 A: I think they call it 1 million candle 6 power. 7 Q: Okay. And can you just give me a 8 sense as to far in the distance it illuminated. How far 9 could you see down the road? 10 A: Couldn't really down the road, we 11 could just see what was in front of us because there's a 12 lot of trees around there, so there wasn't much to see. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But it will shine far. 15 Q: Is it fair to say that you could see 16 part of the sandy parking lot in front of you? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And could you see onto the asphalt at 19 all? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. Were there any other 22 spotlights turned on at that time? 23 A: There was another one, but I don't 24 know whose car it was in. 25 Q: All right. And can you tell me
351 approximately where that was? 2 A: It was in this area right here. 3 Q: All right. Would you please put an 4 "X" and a 2, showing where the second spotlight was, 5 approximately? 6 Now, was there any other lighting in and 7 around this intersection at this time that you -- that 8 you can recall? 9 A: I believe they had lights. 10 Q: Who? 11 A: The police. 12 Q: All right. And can you tell me where 13 you recall seeing the lights from? 14 A: Back behind them. 15 Q: Behind them? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay, so is this in the bush or is 18 this down East Parkway Drive? 19 A: It's right on the corner. 20 Q: On the corner -- the -- of -- of the 21 intersection? 22 A: Right there. 23 Q: Okay, can you just put an "X" and a 3 24 marking the general location of the police light? And 25 what type of light was that?
361 A: I'm not sure what it was. 2 Q: Okay, but it was a light. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And were there any -- any 5 lights on in or around the store -- the Park store, that 6 night that you can recall? 7 A: There was a few lights on the inside, 8 I think. 9 Q: And were there any bonfires going 10 this night? 11 A: Not bonfires, a little fire, you 12 know. I wouldn't call it a -- 13 Q: Little fires? 14 A: -- I wouldn't call it bonfire. 15 Q: Okay, well, what -- where was the -- 16 the fire? 17 A: In front of the store. 18 Q: In front of the store? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay, so to the west of the store? 21 A: Northeast corner of the store. 22 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether or 23 not there were any streetlights on the intersection at 24 this time? 25 A: I don't know if there was or not.
371 Q: Okay, fair enough. So, is that 2 basically the -- the -- all the sources of lighting that 3 you can recall? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Now, as the police 6 marched down East Parkway Drive, did you form any 7 opinions or impressions as to what you believed that they 8 were going to do? 9 A: I figured that they were going to 10 beat the hell out of us. I didn't think they were going 11 to come in and shoot us. 12 Q: All right. Why did you think they 13 were going to do that to you? 14 A: Because that's what you see on TV. 15 Whenever you see that riot squad, that's what you see 16 them doing, spraying people in the eyes and hitting them 17 with their batons. 18 Q: So, it is -- 19 A: You don't see them coming in and 20 shooting. 21 Q: Is it fair to say that -- that you 22 were gearing for a fight, then? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Do you recall who -- who 25 was located to either side of you with --
381 A: I don't know who was -- I don't know. 2 Q: Okay, were there other people, 3 though? 4 A: Yeah, there was a lot of people. 5 Q: And were they lined up along the 6 fence? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. Now, when the police come into 9 view, from your position at the spotlight, what did you 10 see? 11 A: I seen three (3) rows of -- I don't 12 know, maybe ten (10) or fifteen (15) people across. 13 Q: All right. What were they wearing? 14 A: They were wearing dark clothes, hoods 15 with visors over them and they were carrying shields. 16 They had batons. 17 Q: How big were the shields? 18 A: I'd say about three (3) feet -- three 19 (3) feet high. 20 Q: All right. And how wide? 21 A: Three (3) by two (2) maybe, yeah. 22 Q: And were they wearing anything on 23 their -- on their hat -- sorry, on their heads aside from 24 hoods? 25 A: Just the visors, that's --
391 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And were they 2 wearing any type of padding that you could see? 3 A: Yeah, they had body armour. 4 Q: And when you say, "body armour" what 5 do you mean? 6 A: I don't know, bullet-proof vest or 7 whatever. 8 Q: Okay. And were they doing anything 9 else aside from marching? 10 A: I don't know. They were saying 11 something. I couldn't understand what they were saying. 12 Q: All right. And were they doing 13 anything with their shields? 14 A: Yes. They were banging their batons 15 on their shields. 16 Q: All right. Now the police started -- 17 were marching and you had the spotlight and did they stop 18 at some point? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Can you tell me approximately by 21 showing me on the map P-93 behind you, approximately 22 where the police stopped? 23 A: They would come running up here, do 24 their march or whatever and start banging on their 25 shields right here and then they'd come back.
401 Q: All right. So your evidence is that 2 they came to the sandy parking lot area and -- and ran at 3 the fence? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And when they were at the 6 fence, were there any exchange with the -- the occupants 7 the first time? 8 A: There might have been but I don't 9 know. 10 Q: All right. Did you -- were you 11 involved in any exchange? 12 A: No. Not at that point. 13 Q: Are you still holding the -- 14 A: I still got -- I still got the 15 spotlight at that point. 16 Q: Okay. All right. And -- and what 17 happens then after they back off from the fence? 18 A: They just keep doing that a few 19 times. They done it a few times. 20 Q: Okay. So the police officers rushed 21 the fence a few times? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And -- and then what happened? 24 A: They went back out to the road and a 25 few guys went out on the outside of the fenced in area of
411 the Park. 2 Q: What guys? 3 A: I don't know who it was. Slippery 4 was one (1) of them. He's the one (1) that got beaten up 5 out there. 6 Q: All right. So people from the Park, 7 the occupants went over the fence? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Do you know why they went over the 10 fence? 11 A: To try to push the cops back. 12 Q: All right. At some point during this 13 exchange, are you -- do you hear anything about a dog? 14 A: Yeah, the dog went out there too I 15 think. 16 Q: And what -- what did you observe with 17 respect to the dog or hear? 18 A: I just heard the dog start yelping 19 and I ran back into the Park. 20 Q: Okay. And -- all right. So people 21 go over the fence -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- including, you believe, Slippery. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what happens next?
421 A: The police come and try to rush us 2 again, and they end up getting Slippery. 3 Q: All right. And when you say they end 4 up getting Slippery, what do you mean? 5 A: They surrounded him, knocked him to 6 the ground and start kicking him, hitting him with their 7 clubs. 8 Q: Did you observe this? 9 A: Yes, I did. I couldn't actually see 10 it but you could see the -- the police surrounding him 11 and actually see them -- their motions of their kicks 12 and -- 13 Q: Okay. And did you realize who it was 14 that was in the centre of the circle of police officers 15 at the time? 16 A: Yeah. I knew who it was. 17 Q: How did you know that? 18 A: Because I was told. 19 Q: Okay. Who -- do you remember who 20 told you? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: Approximately how many police 23 officers were surrounding Slippery at this time? 24 A: Ten (10) or twenty (20). 25 Q: Now do you recall prior to this
431 event, were there any police officers told you to stay in 2 or come out of the Park? 3 A: I can't remember right now. 4 Q: All right. Do you recall giving 5 evidence at the trial of Officer Deane? 6 A: Some. It's been a long time. 7 Q: But do you recall that you -- you 8 went there and you gave testimony? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And when you gave testimony, did you 11 swear to tell the truth? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you do so to the best of your 14 ability? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: All right. And I understand at that 17 trial testimony occurred on April the 3rd of 1997. Does 18 that sound about right to you? 19 A: I guess, yeah. 20 Q: All right. And you'll agree that 21 your memory of events was fresher at that time than it 22 may be today? 23 A: Yes, it was. 24 Q: All right. Would it assist you to 25 review your testimony and refreshing your memory as to
441 what -- what you heard or may have heard police officers 2 say? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: Why don't you have a look at your 5 binder there in front of you and if you would go to Tab 6 3, and this is Inquiry Document Number 1005292, and if 7 you would to Page 146 and in some people's transcripts it 8 may be Page 46. 9 Do you see the -- the numbering of the 10 pages there, in the top left corner? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And I wonder if you would 13 just read your exchange, or perhaps I will for you, 14 starting at about Line 10. And this is -- you're 15 describing the confrontation: 16 "Q: Okay, and what did you see the 17 police with the shields do? 18 A: They just stood at the roadway 19 there and then they started coming in, 20 moving us back into the Park. 21 Q: Could you say that again a little 22 louder? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. 23 A: They were standing at the roadway 24 here and then they started moving us 25 back into the Park.
451 Q: Where did they go to? 2 A: They just stood along the fence 3 line there and they then started 4 hitting their sticks on the fence. 5 Q: Were they saying anything to you or 6 to your group? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: What were they saying? 9 A: Something about staying in the Park 10 or something, stay out of the sandy 11 point there." 12 Now, do you recall giving those answers 13 and does that refresh your memory at all? 14 A: Oh, they might have. Like, like you 15 said, that was back then. 16 Q: All right. Does that refresh your 17 memory today? 18 A: Not really, no. 19 Q: All right. Your Honour, I'd like to 20 -- or, Commissioner, I'd like to tender Page 146 of the 21 transcripts of the examination-in-chief of Gabriel 22 Doxtator, Page 146, Inquiry Document Number 1005292 as -- 23 as memory past recorded -- recorded recollection. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. Next
461 exhibit? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-94. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-94. 4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just the one 6 (1) page, 146? 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah, just the -- the 8 passages -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- that I have read to 11 the witness. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-94: Document 1005292 Tab 02, page 14 146, witness Mr. Gabriel 15 Doxtator Testimony at Deane 16 trail April 03/97 past Memory 17 recorded. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: All right. Now you indicated that 21 you saw police officers surrounding Slippery -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- and you saw some actions by the 24 police which you assumed were towards the -- the -- 25 Slippery?
471 A: Yes. 2 Q: And were you still, at this time, 3 holding the spotlight in the same approximate location as 4 you've shown us on the map? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And what, if anything, 7 happens next? 8 A: They started kicking him towards the 9 police van they had parked on the road. 10 Q: Did you see the police van? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Can you tell me on the map 13 approximately where that police van was located? 14 A: It must have been where they had a 15 spotlight, 'cause that's where -- the same area right 16 here. 17 Q: All right. So you're pointing out at 18 the intersection or the bend in the road -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- between Army Camp Road and East 21 Parkway Drive? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And you're indicating 24 it's around where X 3 is? 25 A: Yes. Same area.
481 Q: Same area as X 3. All right, and can 2 you tell me approximately by showing me on the map where 3 you saw the police surrounding Slippery? 4 A: Right here. 5 Q: Can you use your mike? 6 A: Right here in this area here. 7 Q: All right. And can you just put an X 8 with a Number 4, signifying where you saw the circle of 9 police, approximately? 10 All right, thank you. All right. And 11 then what happens next, after -- after Mr. George is 12 being taken to the police van; what happens? 13 A: They throw him in and that's the last 14 I seen him. 15 Q: All right. And did the occupants 16 react in any way? 17 A: Yeah, we all went out. 18 Q: Went out over the fence? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And at this point, do you 21 leave your spotlight behind? 22 A: Yes, 'cause the car's pulling out. 23 This is at the point when the car and the bus go out. 24 Q: Okay. So just so we have the 25 chronology of your actions first -- correct, what goes
491 out first, the bus or the car? 2 A: I believe the bus went out first. 3 Q: All right. And then does the car 4 follow it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And at this point in time, obviously 7 the car's not there any more, you've lost your battery 8 source -- 9 A: Yes, yeah. 10 Q: -- and you go over the fence. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And what did you do when 13 you go over the fence? 14 A: We chased the police down the road. 15 Q: Did you have anything in your hands 16 when you went out over the fence? 17 A: I might have had a stick. 18 Q: And what did you do with your stick? 19 A: Hit the cops. 20 Q: Did you actually make contact with 21 the police officers? 22 A: I might have. I don't know. 23 Q: And what -- how big was your stick? 24 A: I don't know, six (6) feet long. 25 Q: Six (6) feet?
501 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And how many inches in diameter? 3 A: Two (2) inches, maybe. 4 Q: And was this a carved stick or -- or 5 just a branch? 6 A: Just a branch. 7 Q: A branch, six (6) feet long? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And you're not sure whether 10 you made contact or not? 11 A: I could have, I don't know. 12 Q: All right. Is it likely? 13 A: Yeah, yeah. Everybody probably made 14 contact with them. 15 Q: And do you recall whether you -- you 16 were made contact with by any police officers? 17 A: I might have been, but I was -- my 18 adrenalin was too high at that point, I couldn't feel 19 nothing. 20 Q: Okay. Did you happen to watch the 21 bus go out? 22 A: I was right behind it. 23 Q: Okay. And can you tell me 24 approximately where the bus exited the Park? 25 A: Right at the gate.
511 Q: The gate that's marked on the -- the 2 diagram behind you? P-93? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And did you see how far 5 it went? 6 A: It went as far as this driveway here. 7 Q: All right. And can you please mark 8 with an X 5 the -- the location at which you see the bus 9 advance to? And just for the record you're pointing 10 along East Parkway Drive at the -- the driveway -- first 11 driveway on East Parkway Drive. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And did you also see the car 14 going out? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And where did it exit? 17 A: Out of the same gate the bus did. 18 Q: All right and did you see how far it 19 made it? 20 A: It made it right around this area 21 here. 22 Q: Okay, and can you mark with an X 6 23 the approximate location of the car and, for clarity, 24 whose car is this? 25 A: Warren George.
521 Q: Okay. You said that you were behind 2 the bus? 3 A: I was running in between the bus and 4 the car when they were going out. 5 Q: All right, and were you keeping pace 6 with the car and the bus? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And so, is it fair to say that you 9 ended up somewhere between X 5 and X 6 on the map? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And at some point in 12 time, do you hear anything? 13 A: When the bus and the car started 14 backing back into the Park, the police started shooting. 15 Q: All right. And what, specifically, 16 did you hear? 17 A: I heard a few shots fired and then a 18 whole bunch of them just started flying around. 19 Q: All right, so you heard two (2) 20 groupings of shots? 21 A: I don't know, maybe, three (3) or 22 four (4) shots at once and then, like, simultaneous shots 23 and then they all started firing. 24 Q: Okay. And do you know approximately 25 how many rounds you may have heard in total?
531 A: Maybe a hundred (100) or a hundred 2 and fifty (150) shots. 3 Q: Okay. And could you tell what kind 4 of -- of gun fired these shots? 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Or guns, I should say. 7 A: Pistols and rifles -- automatic 8 rifles. 9 Q: Okay. All right. And you said that 10 the bus and the car had started reversing when you heard 11 these shots? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what did you do when you heard 14 the shots? 15 A: I ran back to the Park. 16 Q: All right. Now, as the bus and the 17 car travelled out into the sandy parking lot and in -- 18 and onto East Parkway Drive, did you see whether either 19 or both of them made contact with police officers? 20 A: I never seen any contact, no. 21 Q: All right. Do you know what the 22 purpose of those vehicles going out was? 23 A: It was to push the police back. 24 Q: And how do you know that? 25 A: Well, why else would they take a bus
541 and a car out and -- 2 Q: All right. So this is an assumption 3 you made? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Did you hear anybody call for the bus 6 or the car? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. Now, at this time are 9 there still any -- any spotlights on that you can recall? 10 A: No. 11 Q: How about from the police side? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right, so you're in darkness at 14 this point? 15 A: Yeah, they all took off. 16 Q: Who took off? 17 A: All the police. 18 Q: All right. And approximately how 19 long did this entire event take place? 20 A: I couldn't tell you because it was -- 21 everything happened so quick, it's just -- I don't know. 22 Q: All right. Now when the -- when the 23 bus travelled up to X 5 and you're behind it, do you 24 still see the police van? 25 A: No, they took off earlier.
551 Q: All right. Did you actually see 2 Slippery loaded into the police van? 3 A: I seen them take him over that way 4 but I never actually seen him loaded in because the van 5 was parked -- the door is parked -- on the other side so 6 I couldn't actually see them put him in. 7 Q: All right. When you say the doors 8 were parked on the other side, do you mean they were -- 9 A: The doors -- sliding door would be on 10 this side so I wouldn't be able to see nothing. 11 Q: Okay. And the headlights were facing 12 the Park? 13 A: The headlights were facing this way. 14 Q: All right. And you pointed in what 15 direction? 16 A: Down this way? 17 Q: So northeast? 18 A: Southeast, isn't it? 19 Q: I'm sorry. No, it's north. I think 20 it's north. 21 A: South. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Okay. I don't know my directions,
561 thank you. South. All right fair enough. Now you said 2 that you -- when you heard the gunshots, your reaction 3 was to run back to the Park? 4 A: Yes so I wouldn't get hit. 5 Q: And -- and did you do so? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: All right. And did you see anything 8 on your way back to the Park? 9 A: I seen a guy standing up here on top 10 of the hill. 11 Q: All right. And do you know who that 12 guy was? 13 A: It was one (1) of the cops. 14 Q: And how do you know it was a police 15 officer? 16 A: Because he was holding of the assault 17 rifles I seen the day before and there was night vision 18 scope on it. 19 Q: Now were you able to identify a 20 police officer with a rifle with a night scope on it if 21 it was dark? 22 A: Well, there was some light from the 23 cars when they were coming back so you can see some. 24 Q: Okay. Headlights? 25 A: Backup lights.
571 Q: And do you know what from vehicles 2 those lights were from? 3 A: I don't know what it was from. 4 Q: So the backup lights from -- okay. 5 And can you just make an X and the number 7 I think were 6 up to, in the approximate location where you saw a police 7 officer? All right, thank you. 8 Did you see or hear anything else at this 9 time? 10 A: All we could hear was bullets flying. 11 Q: All right. And did you at any time 12 see any -- any residue of gunshots or any evidence of 13 gunshots? 14 A: Like what? 15 Q: Did you see any muzzle fire? 16 A: Yeah, I did. 17 Q: Where did you see that? 18 A: Right here. 19 Q: The same location as X 7? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And at some point did you 22 see anybody who appeared to be injured to you? 23 A: Just Dudley. 24 Q: All right. And where did you see 25 Dudley George?
581 A: He was running back into the Park and 2 he said, I think I'm hit. 3 Q: All right. And I'm just going to 4 switch maps for you, just give me a second. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Now what we've put before you is the 9 exhibit, Exhibit Number 20 from the Deane trial and it is 10 a map of the same intersection of Army Camp Road and East 11 Parkway Drive as you've been referring to. 12 Now, do you recognize that diagram? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And on it you have marked 15 two (2) circles and initials. Can you just point those 16 out and tell me what it was you were demonstrating? 17 A: This is where I seen -- approximately 18 where I seen Dudley George fall. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: And this is where I was standing when 21 I seen him. 22 Q: All right. And you have your 23 respective initials attached to those? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now were you actually back in the
591 Park when you first noticed Dudley George? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what alerted you to him? 4 A: Everybody was just asking if 5 everybody was all right and then he's the only one (1) 6 that was kind of holding his chest and then he said that 7 he thinks that he's hit. 8 Q: All right. And when you saw him, 9 was he on his own feet? 10 A: He was on his feet at the point, but 11 then he dropped to his knees. 12 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 13 A: I few of the guys grabbed him and put 14 him in the car. 15 Q: And where were you when this was 16 happening? And what I want to know is, how close were 17 you to Dudley George? 18 A: A few feet. 19 Q: A few feet? And do you recall which 20 of the -- of the men carried Dudley George to the car? 21 A: I believe it was Chuck George and 22 Alan George. 23 Q: All right. And were there other men 24 surrounding him at this point? 25 A: Yes.
601 Q: Okay. And whose car was he loaded 2 into? 3 A: I think they put him into the "OPP 4 Who" car. 5 Q: All right. Did you overhear any 6 other exchanges or comments from Dudley George? 7 A: He tried to say something, but he 8 couldn't. 9 Q: All right. And did you observe his 10 wound? 11 A: I seen his blood-soaked shirt. 12 Q: All right. Fair enough. And once he 13 was put into the car what happened? 14 A: That was the last I seen him. 15 Q: All right. And what did you do after 16 that? 17 A: I don't know, I can't remember after 18 that, too much. 19 Q: All right. Where are the police at 20 this point? 21 A: I don't know. 22 Q: Were they in the Park? 23 A: I don't know where they were. 24 Q: All right. You just can't recall? 25 A: No.
611 Q: All right. Did you -- did you stay 2 in the Park at this time? 3 A: For a while, yeah. 4 Q: All right. And is it fair to say 5 that the police left at some point? That -- that you -- 6 you kind of lost contact with the police? 7 A: When they went running down the road, 8 that's the last I seen them. 9 Q: Okay. When did they go running down 10 the road? 11 A: When the bus chased them out. 12 Q: All right. So this is before you saw 13 Dudley George? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: All right. Did you stay in the -- in 16 the Park for a while after that? 17 A: I could have, but I don't know how 18 long. 19 Q: All right. And Commissioner, I -- I 20 would like to make the diagram, Exhibit 20 from the Deane 21 trial, the next exhibit, please. 22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-95. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-95. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 25
621 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-95: Stan Thompson drawing, Sept 20/95 2 marked Gabriel Doxtator Exhibit 20 on 3 top right-hand Corner of Exhibit, 4 April/97 R. vs. Ken Deane trial. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: Were you present at the Park when a - 8 - when the Park store was burned down? 9 A: I might have been, I don't know. 10 Q: All right. Did you recall -- do you 11 recall overhearing anything on a scanner subsequent to 12 the shooting of Dudley George? 13 A: I heard anything about what? 14 Q: Did you overhear any comments by the 15 police on the scanner? 16 A: Oh, yeah, yeah. 17 Q: What did you overhear? 18 A: Well, when the riot -- when the riot 19 squad got there, we heard over the scanner that there was 20 -- the Badgers are in the Park. 21 Q: When did you hear that? 22 A: That was when the -- when the riot 23 squad got there. 24 Q: Okay, is this when the -- the police 25 initially march on you?
631 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And do you know what that 3 -- what that term had reference to? 4 A: Not at that point I didn't, but it 5 came to me afterwards what they meant by it. 6 Q: Okay, well did -- you mean you -- you 7 speculated about what was meant? 8 A: Yeah, yeah. 9 Q: And what did you believe it meant? 10 A: Well, the way the badger does it, he 11 goes out and does his killing at night, so that's what I 12 figured that's what they meant by that. 13 Q: Sorry? 14 A: When a badger does its killing, it 15 does it at night -- 16 Q: And -- 17 A: -- So I figured that's what their -- 18 what their code word meant. 19 Q: Okay. All right. I'm -- I'm just 20 advised that when you hold the microphone really close to 21 your mouth they're having difficulty hearing you, I -- 22 it's a bit muzzled, so just -- if you could -- yeah. 23 Hold it there, that's good. 24 A: Yeah, right there? 25 Q: Perfect. I can hear you fine, so --
641 Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When he's 3 sitting at the table he doesn't need the hand mic. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's true, you don't 5 need to have it. 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I know, but -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps 8 that's -- that's what's making it difficult. 9 THE WITNESS: She's making me turn back 10 and forth so -- 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay, I won't make you 12 turn back and forth anymore, so you can put the 13 microphone down. I appreciate that. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: Okay. And did you hear any 17 conversations over the scanner subsequent to Dudley 18 George being shot that you can recall? 19 A: You just asked me that question. 20 Q: I know. I'm asking it again. You 21 told me about a conversation earlier -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- right? And now I'm asking you 24 whether you heard anything over the scanner after -- 25 A: After?
651 Q: After. 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: You don't know? All right. 4 A: Not right now, no. 5 Q: Fair enough. Now, I'll ask you 6 again, as well, did you -- were you present at the Park 7 when the store burned down? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Where were you at that point? 10 A: I was already back at the barracks 11 and I just seen the flames. 12 Q: Okay. What do you mean, you saw 13 flames? 14 A: Well, it's a big store. 15 Q: You could see it from the barracks? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. And where did you stay at 18 the barracks when you returned? 19 A: At Glenn George's. 20 Q: Okay. All right. And did you -- 21 when you returned to the Army camp base, did you see 22 Nicholas Cottrelle and his mother and father? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. And was Dudley George 25 still there when you arrived?
661 A: No, he was gone. 2 Q: All right. So when you arrived at 3 the Army camp base, what did you find? 4 A: A bunch of people, just, you know, 5 shocked about what happened. 6 Q: Okay. When you returned to the 7 barracks, did you see, at that point, anyone with 8 firearms? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. Did you -- did you see Bonnie 11 Bressette that evening? 12 A: I might have. 13 Q: Do you have any recollection today of 14 that? 15 A: I think I have -- I've seen her, 16 but... 17 Q: Okay. Did -- all right, did you have 18 any contact with her? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. Did you sleep that night? 21 A: Somewhat, I guess. You can't really 22 sleep after going through something like that. 23 Q: At some point in time, did you find 24 out about Dudley George's fate? 25 A: We found out the same night.
671 Q: And how did you find out? 2 A: Somebody came and told us. 3 Q: All right. And what was your 4 reaction? 5 A: I was shocked. 6 Q: And did you know, at this point in 7 time, where Slippery was? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. And had you heard about 10 any other injuries at this point? 11 A: No, no, not at that point. 12 Q: Did you have any injuries yourself? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. I wonder if we can put 15 Exhibit P-42(a) to the witness, please. That's the 16 photograph. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Thank you. And just for record, put 21 that on the screen as well. And this was a photograph 22 that was taken at 2:51 a.m. on September the 6th, 1995 23 previously marked as Exhibit 42(a). 24 Do you recognize the individual in that 25 photograph?
681 A: Not really. It's kind of blurry. 2 Q: All right. Fair enough, thank you. 3 Now, the next morning, September the 7th, 1995, did you 4 attend at the parking lot, the MNR parking lot off East 5 Parkway Drive? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. Did you return to the 8 Park at all? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And what was the purpose of returning 11 to the Park? 12 A: I don't know. I just went down 13 there. 14 Q: All right. Did you find any -- any 15 evidence of any kind when you were in the Park? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: What did you find and where? 18 A: I found some shell casings. 19 Q: All right. Do you recall how many 20 you found? 21 A: No, I can't recall. 22 Q: Do you recall what types you found? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: What types? 25 A: I found some .223s, some 9mm and some
691 40 calibres. 2 Q: All right. And what did you do with 3 those casings? 4 A: I handed them in to somebody. I 5 don't know who it was. 6 Q: All right. When did you do that? 7 The same day or later? 8 A: The same day. 9 Q: Was there, at this point, an 10 organized effort to find bullet casings? 11 A: I don't know if it was organized. 12 It's just something that everybody did. 13 Q: All right. And can you recall the 14 approximate area that you found these bullet casings in? 15 Area or different areas. 16 A: It was all in this area here. 17 Q: All right. And you're pointing -- 18 well, you're pointing at the intersection map in the 19 general vicinity of the -- the bend -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- of East Parkway Drive and Army 22 Camp Road -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- was it also into the sandy parking 25 lot area around the bend?
701 A: No, I don't think so, no. 2 Q: Okay. So on the asphalt? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And was it also found in the area 5 south-west of Army Camp Road there? In the bush area? 6 A: This area here? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Yes, there was. 9 Q: Okay. And any other locations, aside 10 from the asphalt? 11 A: This area here where I seen the 12 sniper. 13 Q: All right. And that's where you 14 previously marked with a -- I think it was -- was it X 7? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. Any other locations that you 17 found bullet casings at? 18 A: No, those are just the main places 19 where I found them. 20 Q: Okay. And did you grant interviews 21 to the Special Investigation Unit? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. How long did you remain 24 at the Army Camp after this event? 25 A: I stayed for about six (6) months
711 afterwards. 2 Q: Why is that? 3 A: I was afraid to leave. 4 Q: Why were you afraid to leave? 5 A: Because I was afraid if I left, the 6 cops were going to shoot me next. 7 Q: Now at this time, where was your 8 permanent residence? 9 A: Oneida settlement. 10 Q: All right. Who did you stay with at 11 the Army camp? 12 A: I stayed with Glenn George. 13 Q: Have you received any type of -- of 14 counselling assistance -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- in relation to this event? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Have you received any forms of 19 traditional healing? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Can you tell us what impact this 22 event had on you? 23 A: It ruined my life. 24 Q: How so? 25 A: I was going to be watching over my
721 back now. I don't know whether those guys are going to 2 come up behind me and put a bullet in me next. 3 Q: And is that a fear you have? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Has there been any -- any such 6 efforts or any -- any ways that substantiate that fear 7 aside from what happened that night? 8 A: I don't think anything can take that 9 fear away. 10 Q: Okay. Thank you. Those are my 11 questions. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. It's a bit early for a break. Why don't we 17 see who's going to cross-examine and how long they're 18 going to take and then decide what to do. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Could we 21 have the usual indication by standing up of who intends 22 to cross-examine please? 23 How long might you be? 24 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I will be ten (10) 25 minutes or so.
731 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 On behalf of Dudley George, ten (10) minutes. And 3 residents? 4 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Perhaps five (5) 5 minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 7 minutes. Is anybody behind you, Ms -- 8 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: No. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, okay. 10 The province, no. OPP? Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Perhaps ten 12 (10) minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 14 minutes. OPPA? Mr. Roland...? 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: Probably an hour and a 16 half. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 18 McAleer...? 19 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Approximately ten 20 (10) to fifteen (15) minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 22 could -- oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Sulman...? 23 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Perhaps ten (10) 24 minutes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10)
741 minutes. Well, I think this is a good time to take a 2 break then, and we'll start to cross-examine right after. 3 We'll take fifteen (15) minutes now. Thank you all. 4 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 5 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 11:06 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 11:26 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed, please be seated. 12 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Good morning, Mr. 13 Doxtator. 14 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 15 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: My name is Vilko 16 Zbogar, I'm one of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley 17 George and Members of Dudley's family. 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 20 Q: There's only a few questions. First 21 of all I'm wondering if you can tell me on the diagram 22 behind you, Exhibit P-93, if you recall approximately 23 where the picnic tables were when the police cars 24 approached them and rammed them? 25 A: They were in this area right here.
751 Q: Would you be able to take a marker 2 and put an X and the number, what number are we at? 3 THE REGISTRAR: Number 8, number 8. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 6 Q: A number 8. Can you recall where 7 Gerald George and Stewart Worm George were when they had 8 their meeting on the 6th? When Gerald George drove up in 9 his car -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- and Stewart Worm George came out 12 to meet him, do you recall approximately where that was? 13 A: It was in this area right here. 14 Q: Maybe you could mark that with a 9? 15 And where were you standing when you saw Stewart George 16 and Gerald George talking? 17 A: I can't really recall exactly where I 18 was, but I was behind the fenced-in area of the Park. 19 Q: Was anybody other than Stewart George 20 and -- and Gerald George outside of the Park at that 21 time? 22 A: There might have been somebody else 23 out there, but I can't remember. 24 Q: You mentioned that Slippery, Cecil 25 Bernard George, brought a scanner.
761 A: Yes. 2 Q: You said that he brought one (1) 3 scanner but that he'd had not batteries and then -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- had to go back -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- and then came back later with 8 batteries? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Were there any other scanners in the 11 Park that anybody had between September 4th and September 12 6th? 13 A: I believe there was one (1) there, 14 but I don't know who had it. 15 Q: Do you know how long it had been 16 there and when it got there, for example? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: Do you know who may have had it? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you listen to anything on that 21 scanner between the 4th and the 6th of September? 22 A: Not really, no. 23 Q: When Ms. Vella was asking you about 24 some events on the afternoon of September 6th, you said 25 that some of the police officers were saying things or
771 yelling things; you didn't want to repeat those kinds of 2 things? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Can you tell me, as far as you can 5 recall, approximately when that may have taken place? 6 A: No, I can't recall, no. 7 Q: Was it before dark? 8 A: Yes, it was before dark. 9 Q: Were there other times between 10 September 4th and September 6th when you recall police 11 yelling at members of the occupiers? 12 A: What's that? 13 Q: Do you recall other incidents of 14 police yelling at the occupiers other than that -- that 15 one (1) time that you mentioned? 16 A: Yes, yes. 17 Q: Now, you -- you said that you didn't 18 want to repeat those kinds of things that the officers 19 said and -- but I think it is important for us to know 20 what was going on so we have a full picture of it and as 21 unpleasant as it is, I -- I do want to ask you, if you're 22 willing, to tell us some of the things that were said. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 24 Scullion? 25 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I have an objection.
781 He's indicated he's not comfortable saying what was said 2 to him by police officers. We have ample evidence from 3 other witnesses as to what was said in that timeframe. 4 I'd ask that his wishes be respected in this regard. 5 He's already indicated he's uncomfortable 6 repeating what was said to them and I just ask the 7 Commissioner to take that into account. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 9 any comment? Do you want to reconsider? Do you want to 10 reconsider? If you don't then we'll have to make some 11 decision, but -- 12 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Well, if -- if you're 13 uncomfortable then I'll -- I'll accept that. I -- I 14 won't ask you to say anything that you're uncomfortable 15 with, so -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 We'll move on. 18 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: And I'll -- I'll -- 19 I'll defer to Mr. Scullion and -- and if he thinks that - 20 - so, if you're not comfortable I -- I -- I don't -- 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: -- want to press that 23 any further. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 25 what he has said, so --
791 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Sure, okay. That's 2 all the questions I have. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 6 Q: Good morning, Mr. Doxtator, my name 7 is Jackie Esmonde, I'm one (1) of the lawyers 8 representing some of the residents of Aazhoodena under 9 the name the Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 10 Now, Ms. Vella had asked you some 11 questions about words that you may have heard the police 12 saying when they came to the Park that evening on 13 September 6th and she had put some of your testimony to 14 you from the Kenneth Deane trial. 15 I wanted to put another statement that you 16 had made somewhat earlier to you to see if that will help 17 you in refreshing your memory. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Now, I believe -- it may be at Tab 1 20 in the binder -- for the benefit of Counsel I'm going to 21 be referring to an SIU statement that was made on October 22 14th, 1995. It's found in Volume 2, Inquiry Document 23 Number 1002255. 24 And if you could turn to Page 5? 25
801 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I'm just going to read to you some of 4 the questions that were put to you and your answers, 5 starting at the top of the page. Mr. Kennedy asked: 6 "What did they do? Describe that 7 fighting a little more and where it 8 occurred". 9 "Doxtator: Right along the fence 10 there, along where the Park is, the 11 Park starts." 12 "Kennedy: In the Parking lot?" 13 "Doxtator: Yeah." 14 "Kennedy: And the fence line that 15 borders the Provincial Park?" 16 "Doxtator: Yeah." 17 "Kennedy: What did they do?" 18 "Doxtator: Well, they told us to 19 leave the Park or else they were going 20 to force us to leave. I don't know, I 21 couldn't hear -- really hear anything - 22 - everything else, 'cause I had the 23 spotlight on them." 24 "Kennedy: I'm sorry, I can't hear you 25 myself."
811 "Doxtator: I had the spotlight on 2 them, I couldn't -- I couldn't really 3 hear what they were saying." 4 So it appears from the statement that you 5 told the SIU in '95 -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- that you had heard the police 8 saying something, telling you to leave the Park or else 9 they were going to force you to leave and that you 10 couldn't really hear what happened after that. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Do you remember -- does that assist 13 you in refreshing your memory about what you may have 14 heard that evening of September 6th, 1995? 15 A: Well, things are just coming to me, 16 like a little at a time as I go through this thing. I'm 17 just trying to remember things. 18 Q: So this does assist you to remember? 19 A: Somewhat, not really though. 20 Q: Not really, though? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Can I -- can I ask you, and if you -- 23 if you can't recall, then I want you just to say that you 24 cannot recall. 25 A: I cannot recall, yeah.
821 Q: I'll ask you a question and you tell 2 me if you cannot recall. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: You seem to be indicating that you 5 kind of vaguely remember hearing -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- words to this effect. 8 A: Yeah. Some words, you know, but I 9 don't know. 10 Q: Can you recall today, if your 11 understanding, on hearing words something like this, was 12 that the police wanted you to leave the entire Park area? 13 A: I can't recall if I said that or not. 14 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, I'd ask that 15 this Page be marked as the next exhibit; that would be P- 16 96? 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-96 your Honour. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Hang on. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 20 you do, let's -- 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Sorry? 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm not sure that My 23 Friend has put in the evidentiary basis for this 24 statement. I think the witness has indicated this hasn't 25 helped him refresh his memory. That's not the basis for
831 putting in a document. 2 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: If I could just 3 respond, I -- I wanted to put this page in for the same 4 purpose that the page from the trial was put in as a 5 record of a memory that was -- has been recorded. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: You haven't -- she 7 hasn't put in the basis for establishing that this is a 8 statement that he made, the authenticity of the statement 9 or that it's a statement that he recalls making. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, all he 11 said is he can't recall. 12 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I'd be pleased to 13 ask him some more questions about the creation of this 14 document if that assists? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 18 Q: Do you recall having given a 19 statement to the Special Investigations Unit on October 20 14th of 1995? 21 A: What's that? 22 Q: Do you recall having given a 23 statement to the Special Investigation Unit? 24 A: Yeah, yeah. 25 Q: In October of 1995?
841 A: Yes. 2 Q: And have you reviewed the document 3 which is at Tab 1? 4 A: I've been going through it. I'm just 5 trying to remember. But there's a lot of stuff that I 6 can't remember, too. 7 Q: In your view, is this an accurate 8 recording of statements that you made to the SIU in 9 October of 1995? 10 A: I can't really say because I don't 11 really recall. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: You do recall having made a statement 16 to the SIU, however, as you've said -- 17 A: Yeah, I do. 18 Q: -- in October of 1995? 19 A: I remember that, yeah. 20 Q: Just one (1) moment. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 25 Horton.
851 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I'd 2 just like to raise a point of clarification, if I may. I 3 understood that when Ms. Vella put in similar statement 4 previously, it was on the basis of past memory recorded, 5 that's what she said. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 7 she said. 8 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: The actual 9 evidentiary rule is that if it's past memory recorded, 10 it's not admissible unless its admissible in some other 11 way. It has to be present memory refreshed as far as 12 hearing from the witness is concerned. So it strikes me 13 that what we have here is also past memory recorded. So 14 that's the first point. 15 The second point is that your -- the 16 Commission rules say that the strict rules of evidence 17 will not apply. Now I appreciate that there are 18 different ways that documents can go into evidence and 19 this is where the point of clarification comes in. 20 Will the SIU transcript, this particular 21 transcript be placed in evidence in some other way before 22 the Commission or will it be taken into account in your 23 findings? Because if -- if it is, then it comes to the 24 same thing. We don't really have to argue about strict 25 evidentiary rules which are not applicable in any event.
861 I -- I just wanted to know how we're 2 proceeding on that kind of point. I think it's a 3 different point when we've had a witness and we -- we 4 then have a previous statement by the witness who is 5 being called. He's subject to being cross-examined on 6 previous statements and I'm sure he will be. 7 At that point can we treat the prior 8 statements that are referred to as being before the 9 Commission and therefore subject to being marked as an 10 exhibit. I -- I would suggest that in that situation the 11 prior statements could simply be marked as an exhibit 12 where the witness has been called and open to be cross- 13 examined on them. 14 COMMISSION SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want to 15 help me, Ms. Vella? 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Horton's quite 17 right. The strict rules of evidence don't apply in this 18 and the -- if this document and this statement advances 19 the Inquiry's understanding of the issues then I'm not 20 going to object to it going in. The difficulty I have in 21 part is that the answer that's being relied upon is quite 22 inherently ambiguous. 23 The answer is: 24 "Well, told us to leave the Park or 25 else they were going to force us to
871 leave. I don't know, I couldn't hear, 2 really hear anything -- everything else 3 because I had the spotlight on him." 4 I'm not sure that that clarifies any 5 evidentiary issues. 6 The trial testimony that I put to Mr. 7 Doxtator was quite clear and unambiguous in that respect. 8 So I don't know if this advances the Inquiry in any point 9 but -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's -- I'm 11 sorry. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- but I'm not going to 13 object to it going in. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then let's 15 let it on the same basis as the portion of the evidence 16 went in on your examination as chief. What part do you 17 want to -- want to put in? 18 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I was simply asking 19 that page 5 be marked as an exhibit. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Part that 21 you read? 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The part that I read. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, why 24 don't we mark that as an exhibit as we did? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-96.
881 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-96: Document 1002255, tab 01, page 2 05, October 14/95, SIU statement by Mr. 3 Gabriel Doxtator 4 5 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Thank you, sir, 6 those are all my questions for you today. 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. We now have Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 12 Q: Good morning, Mr. Doxtator. 13 A: Good morning. 14 Q: My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson and 15 I'm here today on behalf of the OPP. I have only one (1) 16 area of questioning that I wish to ask you about. 17 You've told us that when you saw the 18 officers on the night of September the 6th, start to 19 retreat down East Parkway Drive -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- that was the last time you saw the 22 police, did I have that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: So the last time you saw the police 25 was prior to your coming upon Dudley George, is that
891 correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. I'll take it one (1) step 4 further. Is it your evidence, sir, that at no time 5 between the point the officers start marching down the 6 road towards the Park and the point that you see Dudley 7 George and discover that he's been shot, is it your 8 evidence that at no point do you see police officers 9 within the fenced in boundary of the Park? 10 A: What do you mean? Right inside the 11 Park? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: No. I didn't see them in there. 14 Q: All right. So you don't see any 15 officers inside the Park and I trust also that after you 16 see Mr. George carried into the "OPP Who" car and that 17 car you -- leaves at no point therever -- thereafter in 18 the hours that follow do you see any police officers 19 within the Park? 20 A: I didn't see any. 21 Q: Thank you, sir, those are my 22 questions. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much. Mr. Roland...? 25
901 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: It's still morning, good morning, Mr. 3 Doxtator. 4 A: Good morning. 5 Q: My name's Ian Roland and I represent 6 the Ontario Provincial Police Association. I'm going to 7 start by asking you some questions about your residence 8 on the Oneida Reserve -- 9 A: Yeah? 10 Q: -- outside London and I take it, 11 apart from the times that you've lived at the Army Camp, 12 you've lived there all your life, have you? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And -- and do I have 15 right that the Oneida Nation has three (3) reserves -- 16 one (1) in Ontario, one (1) in New York and one (1) in 17 Wisconsin? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And I gather from time to 20 time you visit the other reserves in New York and 21 Wisconsin? 22 A: No, I've never visited them. 23 Q: You've never visited them? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And have you met Oneida members
911 who've lived -- who live in New York and Wisconsin, 2 visiting your reserve outside London? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And how many -- how many people live 5 on your reserve outside London? What's the population, 6 approximately? 7 A: About maybe six hundred (600). 8 Q: All right. And has that been fairly 9 constant over the last ten (10) years or has it grown 10 over the last ten (10) years? 11 A: It's grown. 12 Q: Has it? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Back in '95, about how many would it 15 have been? 16 A: Oh, I don't know, five hundred (500) 17 maybe. 18 Q: Five hundred (500)? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And I gather you know Bruce 21 Elijah? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And how do you know him? 24 A: He's one (1) of the Faith Keepers. 25 Q: On your reserve?
921 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes. And do you -- do you also know 3 him as a war chief? 4 A: No. 5 Q: There's going to be, I think, some 6 evidence that's going to be called in this Inquiry or put 7 -- put before the Inquiry describing Bruce Elijah as the 8 Oneida Warrior War Chief. 9 Have you ever heard that description of 10 him before? 11 A: No, he's not. 12 Q: All right. Is there a War Chief of 13 the Oneida Warriors? 14 A: There was at one (1) point. 15 Q: Who was that? 16 A: Layton Elijah. 17 Q: And when was -- was he the War Chief 18 back in 1995? 19 A: He was, yes. 20 Q: All right. Can you tell us, in your 21 understanding, what's the role of a War Chief? 22 A: That's a guy that's the war -- to 23 tell us what to do. 24 Q: Yeah. Is it -- isn't it so that he's 25 the leader of the Warriors?
931 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And he's the one (1) that the 3 Warriors follow; they follow his guidance and direction? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, you were asked yesterday by Ms. 6 Vella about your nation and about the -- the role of, 7 among others, the -- the Clan Mother -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- and you told us that you follow 10 the -- the directions of the Clan Mother in a traditional 11 society. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I gather at your reserve in 14 Oneida, there were really two (2) separate councils, 15 there's the elected council -- the -- the elected 16 council -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- that's really a creation of the 19 federal government's -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 21 Mr. Horton...? 22 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Yes, Commissioner, 23 I'm just wondering what the relevance of the line of 24 questioning is as to the constitutional situation of the 25 Oneida First nation?
941 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, we're -- I'm -- 2 I'm going to get to -- to the role -- the role of the 3 Warrior Society in the context of all of this. 4 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Well -- 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's certainly -- it's 6 something that my Friend, Ms. Vella, asked about. She 7 asked about the traditional council and she asked about 8 the -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- about the Clan 11 Mother. I'm simply following up on that with some more 12 detail. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 14 she did. I think we have to go a little bit down the 15 road before we can see whether it's relevant or not. 16 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Well, I -- I think - 17 - I think Mr. Roland has already given us a bit of a 18 glimpse down the road, Mr. Commissioner -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 20 haven't had that advantage. 21 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: No, I mean in what 22 he just said. So I'll wait, but I expect I'll be up 23 again shortly. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 You don't want to go too far afield, Mr. Roland.
951 MR. IAN ROLAND: No, I think it's 2 important for the Commission to understand a little bit 3 more what Ms. Vella asked about, because what she asked 4 was very summary and I'd like to give a little more of an 5 understanding to the Commission. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If it's 7 relevant. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah, I understand. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps a 10 little bit -- 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: I assumed it was 12 relevant or Ms. Vella wouldn't have asked about it. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, okay. 14 A little bit of it is, but how much detail to go into may 15 not be, so let's see how far you go. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: Mr. Doxtator, as I understand it 20 there's the -- there's the traditional Band Council and 21 there's the elected Council, and they're two (2) quite 22 separate entities? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes. And the -- the traditional 25 leadership and Council of the Oneida forms part of the
961 Grand Council of the Haudenosaunee, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, we have 4 an objection from Mr. Simon, so you might be going too 5 far into the Oneida structure. Yes, Mr. Simon...? 6 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Scullion. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 8 Scullion. Excuse me. 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Ms. Vella asked 10 general background questions. We have evidence that Mr. 11 Doxtator, along with three (3) others, came in support of 12 what was going on in the Park and they had previously 13 been to the camp for other purposes, including fishing 14 and hunting. 15 We're now into the constitutional 16 structure of Oneida, how it relates to the borders with 17 the US parts and Canadian parts and I know where My 18 Friend is going. 19 I'm going to object to most of the 20 questions he's going to go, because I've had a glimpse, 21 as My Friends with the little paperwork beforehand. So 22 I'll register my -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I haven't 24 seen that paper, so I -- 25 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I understand that,
971 and I'll object when the paperwork comes as well. But my 2 objection is, we are going very far astray here. We're 3 off of the lands that were in question, we're off of the 4 camp lands. 5 We're now into Oneida which is an hour and 6 change away from the area in question and we're into a 7 time period that hasn't been specified in any great -- to 8 any great specificity. 9 So, my objection is we're going very far 10 astray here. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Your 12 objection is -- 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'd like to 14 register -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- this 16 isn't relevant. That's the basis of it? 17 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It is. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 19 Vella...? 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that, in 21 fairness to the Counsel to the OPPA, that there is some 22 evidence in the documentation they anticipate will come 23 forward with respect to the OPP intelligence surrounding 24 Warrior Societies. 25 In fairness, I did explore that issue with
981 this witness and with other witnesses. They have given 2 an explanation and I think we should give Mr. Roland some 3 latitude here to develop his theory and in the event that 4 something does go too far astray or this witness is 5 unable to help him with his questions, then -- then 6 perhaps we will reconsider our position. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 8 think the objections may have been premature. Counsel 9 may know something that I don't, and at some point they 10 may become irrelevant and I'm certainly inviting Counsel 11 to object again when and if they do, but I haven't heard 12 anything yet that I think is irrelevant. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean, it 15 depends, I say, on how far you go. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: Mr. Doxtator, let me then return to 20 my question about the Haudenosaunee. And I understand 21 that Haudenosaunee is the -- is the name that the 22 traditional six (6) nations use to refer to themselves as 23 a group? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that the Oneida are one of those
991 six (6) nations? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that the -- the Grand Council of 4 the Haudenosaunee has really been described and is 5 described by it as the -- as the first united nations 6 operating a -- a form of government called the Grand 7 Council of the Haudenosaunee? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yes. You've, I gather, been shown 10 over the break, a publication on the website of the 11 Haudenosaunee. Did you have a chance to look at that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And are you familiar with that -- 14 A: Some of it. 15 Q: -- publication? Yes. And it refers 16 to who are the Haudenosaunee, describes it and it 17 includes the Oneida as the People of the Upright Stone? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yes. And that's how you know your 20 nation described as? 21 A: Yes. Standing stone. 22 Q: Yes. And it refers to the role of 23 the Chiefs? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: The document refers to the role of
1001 Chiefs, known as Poyena (phonetic), Poyena? Is that the 2 right pronunciation? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: And it describes that there are for 5 example, amongst the -- I gather amongst the Oneida some 6 nine (9) Chiefs -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- that represent the Oneida on the 9 Grand Council? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Is that correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: It describes the role of the Clan 14 Mother, did you read that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And do you agree with that, that 17 that's the role of the Clan Mother? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And it describes what clans are. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And I take it you agree with that 22 description of the clan? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: It also speaks to the threat to 25 traditional society -- the threat to the Haudenosaunee
1011 proposed at least in this publication by the Warrior 2 Societies. Did you have a look at that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what it says is that: 5 "The Warrior Societies within our 6 communities have subverted the great 7 law and have sought nothing short of 8 total destruction of the..." 9 Can I finish my question then you can 10 object? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he's 12 got to at least finish the question. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Let me finish the 14 question. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he's 16 got to at least finish the question before we decide what 17 to do with it. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND 20 Q: In this publication by the Grand 21 Council of the Haudenosaunee, it says: 22 "The warrior societies within our 23 communities have subverted the great 24 law and have sought nothing short of 25 the total destruction of the
1021 Haudenosaunee Council of Chiefs for the 2 mere purpose of making money for 3 themselves. It is this subversion of 4 the great law and .." 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't 6 we -- 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: "...the use of violence 8 against their own people that casts 9 each and every warrior outside the 10 circle of the great law..." 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What are you 12 reading from? 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm reading from the 14 publication of the Haudenosaunee -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Who wrote 16 it? 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: The Haudenosaunee. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Pardon me? 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: The Haudenosaunee, it's 20 their website. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Pardon me? 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: They did. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Who's they? 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: The Haudenosaunee, which 25 are -- it's the web page of the Haudenosaunee.
1031 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not 2 good enough. 3 THE WITNESS: We didn't write that. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean 5 that's -- 6 THE WITNESS: We didn't write that. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well it comes off a 8 Haudenosaunee home page. 9 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: There's an 10 objection. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 12 yes? 13 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Excuse me, 14 Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 16 Horton. I don't know what you're reading or who wrote it 17 or where it came from -- 18 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Well, Mr. 19 Commissioner, quite so. And this is exactly what we had 20 the preview of -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You had this 22 and I didn't. 23 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: I understand that. 24 And it's always a question as to when is the right time 25 to raise the question and I might say that with the
1041 examinations that are being conducted by the OPPA, 2 there's always a concern that most of the harm is in the 3 question. Regardless of what the answer may be. 4 And this is a classic example of that. 5 And it's a point that I've made on previous occasions 6 where unproven documents have been put to witnesses more 7 for the effect of what is in the document than anything 8 the witness could possibly say about them. 9 What we have here essentially, 10 Commissioner, is an exercise in group defamation that is 11 being carried out on a systematic basis where every 12 conceivable stereotype about these communities is being 13 dragged up in the form of questions to witnesses where 14 there's really no proper basis for the question. 15 And this is what we're calling the OPPA on 16 today. And the fact of the matter is that this is a 17 public inquiry and it is an open-ended process and we 18 very much appreciate that. We very much appreciate the 19 existence of the Inquiry and the open-endedness of it. 20 But as a result of that open-endedness 21 what happens is that there isn't the road map that there 22 is in other types of proceedings. There aren't 23 pleadings, there's no indictment or originating document 24 and there's no -- in this case we have no opening 25 statements.
1051 So the relevance of a particular question 2 and whether or not it's being asked for proper purpose is 3 sometimes hard to argue. And -- and it depends upon 4 counsel and the parties to ensure that these stay within 5 the bounds of relevance and don't abuse the -- the rights 6 that exist. 7 And I have to say, that in this particular 8 case, the point about relevance that I want to make 9 cannot be fully made without referring to the audio tapes 10 that were an issue on the earlier motion. And not all -- 11 not all aspects of it, but there are certain aspects of 12 it that I wish to comment on because it goes directly to 13 the relevance of many of the questions that have been 14 asked on the issue of guns, on the issue of Warrior 15 Society, on the issue of whether or not there was 16 perceived to be a threat that required a violent or 17 forceful response. 18 All of these issues in terms of relevance 19 can be argued in terms of the audiotape, because -- and - 20 - and I don't want to go any further than that right now, 21 but what is being painted here through a series of 22 questions, is a very different series of concerns, in my 23 submission, than actually existed. 24 And if we are going to permit concerns to 25 be explored through questions where there's a real issue
1061 as to whether those concerns existed and to what extent 2 they existed and whether or not they existed in the minds 3 of the OPP at the time as a relevant justification for 4 what was done on the evening on September the 6th, then 5 we should, in my respectful submission, make the 6 documents that are part of the record that go to that 7 very issue and that raise that very point, available to 8 the Public at this moment in time. 9 And I -- I don't want to go further than 10 that in my submissions at this point unless you -- you 11 give me some direction on that, Commissioner, but I'm -- 12 I feel that to fully make those submissions, I need to 13 refer to those tapes that were the subject of that -- of 14 that previous motion. 15 And the -- the alternatives are either 16 that you -- you -- you find I've said enough or, that on 17 the other hand, we -- we have a in-camera session, or you 18 -- you release me from the obligation, at least to that 19 extent, and I -- and I'm -- I'm quite happy to confine my 20 comments to those points. 21 But -- but we really are at that point and 22 -- and frankly, Commissioner, it's a good thing that 23 we're at the point, because there has been a lot of 24 questioning that has put that very issue, really, in play 25 and we've -- we've -- we've patiently sat by and said,
1071 well, fine, there's -- there's a degree of relevance, but 2 there's a -- the context is completely lacking and is 3 completely false based on what we have today. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 5 Mr. Horton. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I 7 understand that Mr. Scullion wants to address you first 8 and then I will follow unless there's someone else you 9 wish to follow him. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 11 that's what I was going to do. Mr. Scullion and then -- 12 Yes, Mr. Scullion? 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I echo Mr. Horton's 14 sentiments. He's certainly making those submissions from 15 a policy perspective. I also have an objection from a 16 process. My Friend put to Mr. Doxtator that, you saw 17 this at the break, didn't you? 18 And then he went through and said, It says 19 the following and he put all of what he wanted to put on 20 the record in the form of a question. 21 I object to that process because it hasn't 22 -- the evidentiary foundation for Mr. Doxtator to say yes 23 or no, I believe in that principle; I don't believe in 24 that principle. He's simply saying, this is what the 25 document says that you don't have in front of you. You
1081 took a quick glance at the break and this is what it 2 says. He's going to say yes or no, but he doesn't know. 3 He doesn't know and I object to the form 4 of the question; the way it's being put to the witness. 5 He can certainly ask -- if it's deemed to be relevant -- 6 he can certainly ask, Is this the role of the Clan 7 Mother? Is this the role of a Warrior in this society, 8 if it's deemed relevant. 9 But to say this publication says the 10 following, and to quote from a publication that we don't 11 know who the author is, we don't know the date of the 12 publication, we simply have Mr. Doxtator saying, I took a 13 quick glance at it at the break, is unfair to the 14 witness. 15 So, I echo Mr. Horton's sentiments as to 16 how this is going about, but also the process and the 17 procedure employed by my Friend who's a senior Counsel 18 and shouldn't be putting the questions to the witness in 19 that manner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 21 Mr. Scullion, in the break that we just had, is that the 22 first time that the witness was shown the document? 23 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Absolutely. Counsel 24 were provided with copies as we broke for fifteen (15) 25 minutes and I provided it to my witness to take a look at
1091 anticipating that it wouldn't be more than a few minutes 2 before Mr. Roland was into this line of questioning. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 Ms. Vella...? 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I have three (3) 6 comments. The first is, of course, that we do have a 7 document that determines what the relevance is of any 8 evidence put to the witness and that is the Order in 9 Council. 10 If it's relevant to this -- to -- to 11 enlightening us as to the events surrounding the death of 12 Dudley George, then it's relevant, but with respect to 13 this particular line of questioning, I have two (2) 14 comments. 15 The first is the document in question has 16 not been tendered in evidence and in the event that it is 17 sought to be tendered in evidence, we will object on the 18 basis of lack of authenticity and reliability. 19 Secondly, in relation to what appears to 20 be controversial part of the document, that is the 21 document that speaks to -- the part that speaks to the 22 Warrior Society, we have heard from Mr. Doxtator that he 23 did not author this document and that he does not agree 24 with the contents of that part of the document. 25 Therefore, in my submission, that should
1101 be the end of this line of questioning in relation to the 2 document in question and any reference it makes to the 3 Warrior Society. He can't go any further than that. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you 5 intend to go any further, Mr. -- 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: Slightly. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Slightly? 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you'd 10 better explain, then, what you're doing -- 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I want -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and -- 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- to put -- I want to 14 ask the witness, having had -- him having a chance to 15 look at it, and to hear my question, is it not so that 16 there's a controversy within the Haudenosaunee Grand 17 Council or within the traditional -- within a traditional 18 Council about the role, the appropriate role, of the 19 Warrior Society. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes -- yes, 21 Ms. Vella...? 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: There doesn't seem to be 23 much doubt there's a controversy. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I don't think that this
1111 advances the evidence here at all. Mr. Doxtator 2 testified yesterday as to what his role as a warrior was, 3 how he perceives the Warrior Society and how that came to 4 bear, if at all, on his actions at Ipperwash Provincial 5 Park. 6 If there's any questions with respect to 7 that, then that's perfectly relevant. But this line of - 8 - of questioning would not go to Mr. Doxtator's role, 9 self-identified role as a warrior and his role at the 10 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 12 we've gone down this road as far as we should go, Mr. 13 Roland. I'm feeling very uncomfortable about going any 14 further than we already have and I'd be grateful if you 15 could move onto another area. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: As is your direction, 17 sir. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 20 Q: Mr. Doxtator, you've told Ms. Vella 21 yesterday that you visited Stony Point in 1994, and less 22 frequently in 1995, where you hunted and fished? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I take it you drove there from 25 Oneida, did you?
1121 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you go with others from your 3 group? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: All right. And would -- did that 6 include Buck Doxtator? 7 A: A few times. 8 Q: Yes. And other -- and others? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yes. And did you hunt as a group? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I take it you transported in your 13 vehicles, as you went to Stony Point, your own firearms? 14 Your rifles to do hunting with? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: You took those with you? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yes. And when you were -- when you 19 were there, staying at Stony Point, you told Ms. Vella 20 from time to time that you went on patrols with the 21 occupiers. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you go on patrols with Dudley 24 George? 25 A: He might have been at a few of them.
1131 Q: And with -- with Kevin Simon? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And who else did you go on patrols 4 with? 5 A: Glenn George. 6 Q: And what did you understand the 7 purpose of the patrols were? 8 A: Just to keep people out. 9 Q: And who -- when you refer to people, 10 who are you referring to? 11 A: The surrounding people. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Cottagers and -- 14 Q: And that was to keep them, I take it, 15 out of the -- the Army reserve itself? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And when you were doing these 18 patrols, I take it you were doing them in your vehicles, 19 were you? 20 A: No, other people's vehicles from 21 Stony Point. 22 Q: Other people's vehicles? And were 23 you doing this intermittently or while you were also 24 hunting? Were you doing both hunting and patrols more 25 or --
1141 A: I guess -- 2 Q: -- less at the same time? 3 A: -- yeah. 4 Q: And so I take it when you were doing 5 the patrols, you were carrying your firearms, your rifles 6 with you, were you? In your vehicles? 7 A: Well, yeah. 8 Q: Yes. And you say you were fishing 9 there as well? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And who did you fish with? 12 A: Glenn George. 13 Q: All right. And did you fish in the 14 lake or did you fish in the -- 15 A: In the lake. 16 Q: In the lake? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. How's the fishing? 19 A: Good. 20 Q: Okay. Now, you say you weren't 21 present at the takeover the barracks in July '95? 22 A: No, I wasn't. 23 Q: But you arrived a couple of days 24 later. 25 A: Yes.
1151 Q: And I think you told Ms. Vella that 2 you went on the -- with the concurrence of your Council, 3 your traditional Council? 4 A: Not at that point, no. 5 Q: Not at that point? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And -- but you went down with, 8 I gather, with, what, with Buck Doxtator? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Or was he already there? 11 A: No. I went down there at that time 12 with Alan George. 13 Q: I see. Was Buck already there at the 14 -- at the Army base? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No? And you stayed at Glenn George's 17 place? 18 A: Yes. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: This is an Exhibit P-41 which shows 23 the Army base. It's hard to read but there -- if you 24 look... 25
1161 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: We're going to give you a hard copy 4 because this is a bit difficult to see on the screen, but 5 we've heard evidence that Glenn George's residence is 6, 6 Building 6. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Is that the right -- is that where 9 you stayed? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And I gather you stayed 12 there with others, did you? 13 A: Just Glenn George, he was there. 14 Q: Was Buck not there as well? 15 A: Not at that time. 16 Q: All right. And how -- how long did 17 you stay at that occasion? How many nights did you stay 18 with Glenn? 19 A: A few nights. 20 Q: Two (2) or three (3)? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And then you went back to Oneida? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And did you return at all, to the -- 25 to the base, to Ipperwash between that time, having
1171 returned in August to Oneida -- early August to Oneida 2 and -- and the occasion that you came in September on the 3 4th of September. Were you there at any time else? Any 4 else -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- in that period? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No. All right. Now you said that -- 9 to Ms. Vella that this was your first involvement in a 10 protest when you went to the Park -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- on September 4th, '95? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You heard of other protests, I take 15 it? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: But you hadn't been involved? I 18 gather you were too young to be involved in those? 19 A: No, it was just I never got involved. 20 Q: Now, before you went on September the 21 4th, and you said you went with Buck Doxtator with Al 22 George and Chuck George and Larry French, and all of you 23 went together, did you get any approval or did you speak 24 to anybody at Oneida about going? 25 A: No.
1181 Q: Did you -- in particular, did you 2 speak to Layton Elijah, your -- your War Chief about 3 going? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did he talk to you about it at all? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. Did Bruce Elijah talk to 8 you about it? 9 A: No. 10 Q: No. Had you known that Bruce Elijah 11 had been there prior, and was acting as a mediator prior 12 to the Park takeover? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And had you talked to him 15 prior to September the 4th about what was going on at 16 Ipperwash? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And you drove down, you say, in Larry 23 French's brown pick-up? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you were stopped by the police at
1191 the intersection of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then, as I gather, you proceeded 4 to the gate where you were stopped at the gate? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And do I have -- do I understand it 7 correctly, that you were stopped at the gate by the -- 8 the occupiers' security? Did they -- 9 A: No, by the police. 10 Q: -- stop you? By the police? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: I see. And you say at that stage you 13 left the truck at the gate? 14 A: Well they was trying to harass us, 15 trying to say that we couldn't get in. 16 Q: Who's that? That's the police? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. But you -- the truck did 19 drive in? 20 A: Yeah, afterwards. 21 Q: And how long afterwards was that? A 22 few minutes? 23 A: Half an hour -- 24 Q: Half an hour? 25 A: Yeah.
1201 Q: All right. And as I -- I heard your 2 evidence, the truck wasn't searched, as far as you know? 3 A: As far as I know it wasn't. 4 Q: The police didn't search it? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No. And you had with you a bag of 7 clothing? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the others also had bags of 10 clothing? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I gather that all of you 13 anticipated that you were going to be there for a while. 14 You brought clothing in the anticipation you'd be there 15 for at least a few days? 16 A: A few days, yeah. 17 Q: Yeah. And I take it you went in 18 anticipation that you'd be staying with Glenn George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that's why you looked up Glenn 21 George? You looked for him? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And did you all stay with Glenn 24 George? 25 A: Yes, we did.
1211 Q: And why is it that you anticipated 2 you'd stay with Glenn George? Have you discussed with 3 him or one of the others discussed staying with Glenn 4 George? 5 A: Because he's the one that we stayed 6 with when we went there. 7 Q: You say always. You've told us you 8 were only there once before? 9 A: Well, whenever we went down there. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: We used to always stay at Glenn 12 George's. 13 Q: Okay. So you -- 14 A: Well, even when he was staying in 15 Dudley's trailer, we stayed there. 16 Q: I see. Because as I heard your 17 evidence you were staying either with Dudley or Kevin 18 Simon before the occupation of the barracks. 19 A: Well Glenn George was always at 20 Dudley's. 21 Q: I see 22 A: You'd always find them together. 23 Q: But Glenn George didn't live with 24 Dudley did he? 25 A: I don't know.
1221 Q: So did you or the any of the others 2 have discussions with Glenn George before you went to the 3 Park -- to the barracks on September the 4th? 4 A: No. 5 Q: No? Now when you were in the -- down 6 the Park on September the 4th, 5th, and 6th, did you 7 wander around the entire Park? 8 A: No. I just mainly stayed around the 9 -- the Park -- the store area there. 10 Q: I see. And along the fence line in 11 that area? 12 A: Yes. Yeah. 13 Q: You were asked whether you -- whether 14 you knew Roderick George and Stewart George. Did you 15 know the two (2) of them? 16 A: I never knew them at that time. 17 Q: You didn't, okay. And we've heard 18 evidence from Stewart George that he was very intoxicated 19 on September the 4th. Do you remember seeing someone 20 very intoxicated on September the 4th in the Park? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 22 I'm not sure who was intoxicated? 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry, Roderick. Sorry 24 I've got the wrong one (1). I guess Roderick George. I 25 apologize.
1231 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 4 Q: That Roderick George was very 5 intoxicated on September the 4th, do you remember seeing 6 anybody in that condition? 7 A: I don't recall, no. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now you've told us that it was your 12 responsibility as a -- as a warrior to support the 13 occupation. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you've told us that you took your 16 directions from your War Chief. Did -- did -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 18 I'm not sure that he said that. If he did then you may 19 clarify that. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: As a warrior you take 21 directions he said from the -- from the war chief. That 22 they're responsible for the warriors. I think that was 23 his evidence. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Was that his 25 evidence?
1241 THE WITNESS: But I never said that I 2 took directions from him at that point. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 5 Q: No, not -- not that point but 6 generally you take directions from your War Chief? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You told us that and I'm -- the 9 question I ask is did you take any directions from Layton 10 Elijah at that stage, he being your War Chief? 11 A: No. 12 Q: So when you say it was your 13 responsibility to support the occupation, that didn't 14 come from any directions from Layton Elijah? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you have any directions at that 17 stage from your War Chief? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Had you spoken to Layton Elijah about 20 what role you were to play in the occupation? 21 A: I didn't know I was going. 22 Q: No, but once you're there did you 23 speak to him? 24 A: No, I never. 25 Q: You didn't speak to him in any way?
1251 A: I phoned him on September 6th. 2 Q: I see. And what -- what the purpose 3 of calling him on September 6th? 4 A: To tell him that the police came in 5 and shot Dudley. 6 Q: I see, this is after the incident on 7 the September 6th? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: But you hadn't spoken to him before 10 that? 11 A: I think we might have phoned before 12 too. 13 Q: All right. And what was the purpose 14 of that call? 15 A: We were going to try to get some more 16 people down there to support us. 17 Q: I see. And the reason I take it you 18 phoned Layton Elijah was because he was your War Chief. 19 He would be the one that -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- would send more warriors down? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did you -- did he indicate that 24 he would do that? 25 A: Well, he said that they had to go
1261 through the process first of getting other warriors set 2 up to come down here first. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. Can you tell -- what 4 process is that? 5 A: They have a meeting between the Clan 6 Mothers and -- and the Chiefs. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: To see if it's -- if their help is 9 needed then they'll send the guys. 10 Q: And was that telephone call on -- on 11 September the 6th, or was it earlier? 12 A: It was on the 6th, I do believe. 13 Q: Early in the day? 14 A: Yeah. Before we knew the police were 15 coming in. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And you say "we made the call" to 20 Layton Elijah. Was it you that called or was it one of 21 your fellow -- 22 A: I made the call but somebody else 23 talked. 24 Q: Talked to him? 25 A: Yeah.
1271 Q: And who was that? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: One of the other Oneida warriors? 4 A: I believe it was one of the Stony 5 Pointers. 6 Q: All right. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Now, this morning Ms. Vella read to 11 you from Page 146 of the transcript from the Deane trial. 12 And it's Tab 3 in your binder. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: It's Document Number 1005292. And 17 she took you through Page 46 to the point where just 18 below Line 20, "what were they saying", referring to the 19 police. 20 "Something about staying in the Park or 21 something. Staying out of the sandy 22 point there." 23 Do you see that? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And do you remember -- does that help
1281 you remember that they -- that you heard them saying -- 2 A: No, it still doesn't. 3 Q: -- move back into the Park? No? And 4 then it goes on: 5 "And were you saying anything back?" 6 "Yeah, we were saying -- " 7 "Yeah, what were you saying back?" 8 "Just calling them pigs and everything 9 like that." 10 Do you remember that? 11 A: Yeah. That's what they are. 12 Q: "And did you have anything in your 13 hands at the time, Gabriel?" 14 Answer: 15 "Just a spotlight at the time." 16 "What happened next?" 17 "The cops moved back out of the sandy 18 part back onto the road and they 19 started coming -- coming back. So -- 20 and we started coming back." 21 So -- and I take it what happened is that 22 the police pushed you and the other occupiers back into 23 the Park by their presence, there was no actual physical 24 confrontation, but they -- you retreated into the Park as 25 the police advanced into the sandy parking lot. Is that
1291 right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yes. And then as the police then 4 backed off, back to the -- back to the roadway, you and 5 others came back out into the sandy parking lot? 6 A: I don't know if we did or not. I 7 can't remember. 8 Q: Well that's -- appears to be what you 9 said at the top of Page 47. Do you want to look at Page 10 147? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: At the very top of Page 147. 15 "The cops moved back out of the sandy 16 part, back onto the road and we started 17 coming back out." 18 You see that? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And you've agreed with Ms. Vella that 21 your recollection in 1997 would be better than it is 22 today? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that you testified under oath and 25 you testified to the best of your recollection back in
1301 1997? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then it goes on: 4 "Now, is there any reason why you 5 started coming out at that point? Do 6 you remember? 7 I don't know. 8 Q: We came out of the west side of 9 the fence onto the sandy roadway. Is 10 that -- or, you came out of the west 11 side of the fence onto the sandy road. 12 Is that correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And were you joined by other ones 15 of your friends? 16 A: Yes. 17 And what happened when you got -- when 18 you all got onto the sandy roadway? 19 A: The cops started moving forward in 20 and we started a little stick fight 21 there. One (1) of the dogs were 22 injured and they grabbed one (1) of the 23 guys and we had -- that we had there 24 with us." 25 Is that -- does that refer to Cecil
1311 Bernard George that you -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- one (1) of the guys? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And below that it said, 6 Do you -- did you have -- right at the bottom of the 7 page. 8 "Q: Did you have anything in your 9 hands when you went back onto the 10 roadway? 11 A: I had a stick. 12 Q: And did you use the stick? 13 Yes. 14 Q: What did you do with the stick? 15 A: I was just hitting the shields. 16 Q: And were you hit back at all? 17 A: No." 18 Now, does that help you refresh your 19 memory that you were using the stick? You hit the 20 shields, but you, yourself, were not hit? 21 A: Well, I must have, yeah. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25
1321 Q: Now, as I heard your evidence this 2 morning, you talked about the fact that the bus and the 3 car came out to push the police back. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And while the bus and the car were 6 coming out, I gather you were in this area -- in the 7 sandy parking lot area? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Probably fairly close to the fence, 10 were you? 11 A: When the bus and -- 12 Q: Yeah, when they started to come out. 13 A: When they started to come out? Yes, 14 I was still at the fence. 15 Q: Yeah, and -- and as the -- as the bus 16 and the car proceeded in a westerly direction along East 17 Parkway, I gather you followed them? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you followed on the south side of 20 the bus, that is, on the driver's side of the bus? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No? 23 A: The north side. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: The north side; in between the car
1331 and the bus. 2 Q: You followed in between the car and 3 the bus? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right, and you were running? 6 A: Well, not actually running, they were 7 going at a slow pace. 8 Q: Well, let me see if I can refresh 9 your memory on that. If you turn to Page 149 of the same 10 document, you'll see beginning near the top: 11 "Then the bus came out and chased all 12 the cops down the road. 13 Q: Where were you? If you could just 14 point to me in the -- on the diagram, 15 where were you when you first saw the 16 bus? 17 A: Around here somewhere where the 18 turnstile is." 19 Which is, I think, what you said near the 20 -- near the fence. 21 "Q: So you were very close to the 22 turnstile, is that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 And did you keep an eye on the bus and 25 where it was going?
1341 Yeah, I followed the bus. I went 2 running out after it." 3 Does that help you remember now that you 4 were running? 5 A: Well, maybe I was running. 6 Q: Let me turn to the next page, Page 7 150. And about -- we'll start near the top. 8 Sorry, at the bottom of Page 149: 9 "All right, were you following behind 10 or beside the bus? 11 A: Beside the bus. 12 Where was the car in relation to you, 13 then? 14 On the right side of the bus." 15 That would be the passenger side, right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. 18 "Q: We've got the bus, we've got the 19 car on the right side of the bus. Is 20 that right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you were where in relation to 23 the car, then? 24 A: On the left side of the bus. 25 Q: You're on the which side?
1351 A: Left side of the bus. 2 So you're on the -- let me make sure I 3 get this straight then, you're on the 4 driver's side of the bus? 5 A: Yes." 6 A: No, but here he was asking where I 7 was in relation to the car. 8 Q: But he says, the question: 9 "You're on the driver's side of the 10 bus? 11 A: Yes." 12 Is there any doubt about what that means? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I don't know. 17 Q: All right. You're not sure now? 18 A: I'm not sure about that statement. I 19 must have ... 20 Q: And then it goes to say, ask the 21 question: 22 "Okay, and did you ever see the bus 23 come to halt?" 24 A: Yes, I believe it was right there." 25 Q: Now you're pointing to the diagram
1361 -- on the diagram to the convergence of 2 the roadway, sorry, driveway 6842 and 3 East Parkway Drive? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what about the car? 6 A: It was stopped on the other side of 7 the bus". 8 That's the other side from you, I assume? 9 Again, puts you on the left side of the bus, on the 10 driver's side. 11 "Q: And where were you when the bus 12 stopped? 13 A: I was still running down the road 14 here somewhere. 15 Q: And what was your intention of 16 running down the road there, Gabriel?" 17 A: Just chasing the police away." 18 Now do you remember being asked those 19 questions and giving those answers? 20 A: Not really, no. 21 Q: But do you accept that they were -- 22 they're accurately recorded and that you were doing your 23 best to tell the truth when you gave those answers? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then you were asked the question,
1371 because this morning you were saying, well you didn't see 2 any -- any contact between the bus and car and the 3 police, and I accept that -- that transcript goes on, not 4 to actually describe contact but you are asked the 5 question: 6 "Did you see the bus drive through the 7 police?" 8 Up over on the top of Page 151. 9 "A: Yeah. I guess you could say it 10 drove through, because they were 11 jumping and running across this way 12 too. 13 Q: Okay, so you saw ... 14 The Court: Your voice just trailed off 15 there, again. 16 Mr. Scott, question: Say that again, 17 please. 18 A: The bus broke them up and there was 19 police running this way and police 20 running that way." 21 So what you remember seeing at least, it 22 appears from this answer, is the -- the bus coming into 23 the midst of the police and the police having to move to 24 avoid the bus, this way and that way. Isn't that so? 25
1381 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: What's that? What was the question?. 4 Q: That what you're saying by this 5 answer, I put it to you, is that you saw the -- the bus 6 go in amongst the police, forcing the police to jump or 7 run this way and that way to avoid being hit by the bus? 8 A: It was just pushing them out. 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: It was the same as what they'd done 11 to us when they pushed us back into the Park. We're 12 using the bus as a thing to push them back. 13 Q: Let me take you to Page 158. And 14 you're being asked again about the -- about the police in 15 the roadway as the bus and car come out and approach 16 them. About Line 15. 17 "All right, and so the thirty (30) at 18 the minimum, it would be thirty (30) -- 19 fair estimate -- to forty (40) police 20 are all in the pavement where the bus 21 and the car are coming, aren't they? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, they'd be sort of covering the 24 road, wouldn't they? Thirty (30), 25 forty (40) police all standing there?
1391 A: Yes. 2 Q: And a bus and a car are coming at 3 them, so they must have had to scatter, 4 did they, to the side? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And did you see them do that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And did you see police officers 9 falling over at the sides? 10 A: I seen them running and jumping 11 over the fences, yes. 12 Q: And jumping the fences? 13 A: Yes." 14 At the top of Page 159, question: 15 "And you're running along behind the 16 bus? 17 A: Yes. 18 And then down to -- down to Line 10. 19 "And the car is sweeping down the right 20 side of the road? 21 Answer: Yes. 22 Q: Leaving no place for any police to 23 stand on that road? 24 A: Yes. 25 Is that fair?
1401 Yes. 2 Q: It's only a two (2) lane road, isn't 3 it? 4 A: Yes." 5 So what I have from -- from that, Mr. 6 Doxtator, is an account that you give of the bus and the 7 car sweeping down the road and forcing the police to jump 8 the fence and fall over to the side to avoid being hit by 9 the car and bus. 10 Isn't that an accurate description of what 11 you now recall? 12 A: I don't know. 13 Q: And you were -- and while this -- you 14 were running to keep up to the bus. 15 A: Well, I wouldn't say running, not 16 really running. 17 Q: Well, I've taken you to three (3) 18 places in the transcript where you used the word 19 "running" or agreed to the word "running". I think you 20 used it twice, yourself, volunteered it and once agreed 21 with it. Are you saying now you weren't running? 22 A: Well, jogging or running, it's almost 23 the same thing, right? 24 Q: And so you were jogging? 25 A: Well, maybe, I don't know.
1411 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, I'd 2 give him the -- the document number, but if we're going 3 to mark these formally as an exhibit, if that's the 4 process I'm -- I'm happy to -- to do that. That's 5 certainly the process Ms. Vella followed this -- followed 6 this morning. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 8 that we need to continue to do it that way. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: I -- I thought since we 10 had the document number, it's a document that we can all 11 refer to and you can refer to when you come to write -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- your -- your -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm 15 perfectly happy with that approach. I don't know if Ms. 16 Vella wants to say anything about -- no, I think she's 17 happy with that approach, too. 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. I think it 19 will cut down the number of -- the number of exhibits, at 20 least. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: Now, you said to Ms. Vella this 25 morning that over the scanner you heard the word
1421 "Badgers" -- 2 A: Yes? 3 Q: -- being said by a police officer or 4 police officers. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you didn't know what that meant 7 and you really don't know what it means today, do you? 8 A: No. 9 Q: You really -- you have some 10 speculation, but you really have no idea what they were 11 referring -- what the police were referring to -- 12 A: No, I was just going by what I -- 13 what I think of it. 14 Q: Yeah, and it just as well could have 15 referred to the occupiers, couldn't it? 16 A: I don't know. They already knew we 17 were in there, so why would they say that we were in 18 there? We were -- 19 Q: Well, you weren't always in the Park, 20 were you? Sometimes you were out in the sandy parking 21 lot? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Right? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: You -- you were both in the sandy
1431 parking lot at times, pushed back into the Park, back out 2 to the sandy parking lot. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: But couldn't it also mean that there 6 was police in there, too? 7 Q: Well, we're -- I think we're going to 8 hear from the police about this, but what I put to you is 9 that you were -- the occupiers were not always just in 10 the Park were they? They were sometimes also in the 11 sandy parking lot? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. Now, you -- you agreed with me 14 and I think may have told Ms. Vella, although her 15 examination was a little brief on this, that you were out 16 following the -- the bus and the car as they moved along 17 East Parkway in a westerly direction and you're now not 18 certain whether you were on the passenger or driver's 19 side of the bus. 20 Your evidence back in '97 put you on the 21 driver's side; you now are not sure about that? 22 A: Yeah, I'm not sure about it. 23 Q: In any event, you -- you heard some 24 shots, you said, and then you -- you ran back towards the 25 Park?
1441 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And was it on running 3 back towards the Park that you saw a figure with a gun on 4 the -- on the place that you've marked as X 7? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: That was the occasion when you saw 7 that? 8 A: I seen him -- seen him earlier when I 9 had the spotlight. 10 Q: All right. Or did you -- so, maybe I 11 should -- 12 A: I knew he was there. 13 Q: Well, when did you see him there? I 14 -- I've suggested it was running back, but maybe it 15 wasn't. Tell me when you did see him there. Where -- 16 where were you and at what point in time did you see that 17 person there? 18 A: At what time? No. 19 Q: At what point in these events did you 20 see the person -- 21 A: I seen him -- 22 Q: -- at X 7? 23 A: -- I seen him when I had the 24 spotlight and I seen him as I was running back into the 25 Park.
1451 Q: Both times? 2 A: Yes. The reason I know he was there 3 when I was running back into the Park is because I seen 4 muzzle flash. 5 Q: And so if you're running in a -- in 6 an easterly direction back towards the Park and you see a 7 muzzle flash, I take it, then you're seeing a -- a shot 8 fired in a westerly direction, are you? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And how many muzzle flashes do you 11 say you saw? 12 A: Three (3) or four (4). 13 Q: All right. I gather you were running 14 with others, were you? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And -- and I believe you were with -- 17 most of the other occupiers, I guess, that had gone out 18 following the bus were all running back, were they? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And about how many would you say were 21 running with you? 22 A: I don't know. 23 Q: Five (5), six (6), ten (10), how 24 many? 25 A: I don't know, I can't say.
1461 Q: More than a couple? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. More than two (2)? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. And, as you ran in an 6 easterly direction, is -- when did you first see Dudley? 7 A: As I was coming back out. 'Cause I 8 ran into the Park -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- and after the gunfire stopped, I 11 come running back out into the sandy parking lot and then 12 that's when I seen Dudley. 13 Q: I see. So, when you heard the 14 gunshots, you ran into the Park? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And you ran to the store, I gather? 17 Or close to the store? 18 A: Close to the store. 19 Q: Yes. And then you turned around and 20 ran back out? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And why did you do that? 23 A: To make sure everybody was all right. 24 Q: I take it then the gunshots had 25 stopped, had they?
1471 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. So you went back to the store, 3 you heard no more gunshots until you went out to see how 4 people were? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that's when you saw Dudley? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: All right. Now this person that you 9 saw at X 7, first while you were with -- with your beam 10 of light, did you -- were you able to identify who that 11 was? Could you tell who the person was that was at X 7? 12 A: It was one of the police officers. 13 Q: And how did you know that? 14 A: Because none of us other guys had 15 police officer uniforms on and carrying assault rifles. 16 Q: I see. 17 A: So it had to have been one of them. 18 Q: Well they were all dark outfits, 19 weren't they? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yes. And -- but you couldn't -- 22 apart from being dark outfits, you couldn't tell whether 23 they were police officer uniforms, could you? 24 A: You can when you got a spotlight 25 right on them.
1481 Q: All right. And then when you're 2 running back, were you able to identify that they were -- 3 that it was a police officer, and if so, how? 4 A: Well, who else would be shooting 5 automatic rifles around at night? 6 Q: All right. But you didn't see that 7 person -- you didn't identify that person as a police 8 officer when you're running back I gather? 9 A: Well, who else would it have been? 10 Q: Yes. You just assumed it was? 11 A: Well, that's who it was up there 12 before. 13 Q: All right. Because someone was up 14 there before, you assumed it was the same person; is that 15 right? 16 A: Well, it was. 17 Q: No, but that was your assumption. Is 18 it fair to say you -- you simply acted on the assumption 19 or took the assumption because it was a police officer 20 you had thought you had seen before, that it must have 21 been the -- the same person when you ran back? 22 A: Well, it had to have been. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: It's just logical. 25 Q: Now, you didn't mention in either of
1491 your SIU statements or at the trial of Ken Deane seeing 2 someone up there on that mound, there's nothing in -- in 3 any of your statements or any of your -- either of your 4 statements or in your evidence, of seeing a person at X 5 7. 6 Is there some reason why you've -- you 7 didn't mention that earlier? 8 A: It seems that it's just coming back 9 to me, like I said. 10 Q: I see. You didn't remember it 11 earlier, but you remember it now? 12 A: Well, maybe I did remember, I just 13 failed to mention it. 14 Q: Okay. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Mr. Doxtator, you were asked about a 19 photograph by Ms. Vella, here it is now, and we know that 20 that photograph was taken, you'll see, at 2:51 a.m., 21 that's the early morning hours of September the 6th, 22 1995, so that's -- that would have been about ten (10) or 23 twelve (12) hours before, actually more like fourteen 24 (14) hours before the events that occurred in the parking 25 lot that we've described; all right?
1501 That was the early morning of the 6th 2 between... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: So, it's nineteen (19) hours, sorry, 7 before the events and my math isn't very good. I'm being 8 assisted with it. 9 And we know that that was taken in the 10 maintenance shed. Had you been in the maintenance shed 11 at all? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And had you been in the maintenance 14 shed on the -- on September the 5th? 15 A: I might have been. 16 Q: And had you been in the maintenance 17 shed on the early morning hours of September the 6th? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: You were there? 20 A: I might have been. 21 Q: All right. And did you -- I'm -- I'm 22 -- we're looking to see if that's you obviously. Did you 23 have a vest like that? It looks like a camouflage vest. 24 We you wearing one? 25 A: No. Never had a vest like that.
1511 Q: Did you smoke then? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: It appears at least it could be that 4 that person's got cigarette in his mouth and you -- you 5 were smoker at that time, were you? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And did you have your 8 hair like that as you have it today? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You wore your hair that way? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And why were you in the maintenance 13 shed? The maintenance building, why were you there? You 14 said you were there. 15 A: That's where they made coffee and 16 stuff. 17 Q: I see. You were there to make 18 coffee? 19 A: That's where the people were making 20 coffee. 21 Q: I see. And that was on the 5th and 22 the early morning hours of the 6th? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Thank you, Mr. Doxtator, those are my 25 questions.
1521 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much, Mr. Roland. Ms. McAleer...? 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 5 Q: Good morning, Mr. Doxtator. My name 6 is Jennifer McAleer and I'm one of the counsel who is 7 acting for former Premier Mike Harris. I just have one 8 area that I would like to ask you some questions about. 9 During your time in the Park on September 10 4th, 5th, and 6th, did you at any point hear any of the 11 occupiers talking about the possibility of an injunction? 12 A: I heard of it but I didn't know what 13 it was. 14 Q: Okay. What did you hear? 15 A: I just heard the word injunction. 16 Q: Who did you hear use the word 17 injunction? 18 A: I don't know. 19 Q: Well, where did you hear that word 20 used? 21 A: In the Park. 22 Q: Was it around the fire? 23 A: I think so. 24 Q: Did you hear it only on one (1) 25 occasion?
1531 A: I might have heard the word a few 2 times. I don't know what the word means so I didn't 3 really pay any attention to it. 4 Q: Okay. Do you remember anything else 5 about the discussion surrounding the use of the word 6 injunction? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You say you don't know what the word 9 means? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: Did you have the impression that the 12 people that were using that word were in any way 13 concerned that they might have to leave the Park? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Do you recall any other part of the 16 discussion surrounding the use of the word injunction? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you hear any of the occupiers 19 talk about having been served with a trespass notice? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you hear any of the occupiers 22 discuss the -- the idea that they were trespassing by 23 being in the Provincial Park? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you see any of the police
1541 officers try and speak to any of the occupiers at any 2 point in time when you were in the Park on September 4th, 3 5th, or 6th? 4 A: Not that I recall, no. 5 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Doxtator, those 6 are my questions. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. I think Mr. Sulman is next. 9 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I have no questions, 10 Your Honour. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 12 Scullion, do you have any re-examination or examination? 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Just a few 14 questions, Mr. Commissioner, and I'll go in order. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 17 Q: Mr. Zbogar asked you about the 18 incident with Stewart George and Gerald George. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you had indicated in your answers 21 that you were at some point inside the fence. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Could you tell us how far from 24 Stewart and Gerald George you were when this incident 25 occurred?
1551 A: Well, they were here in this area -- 2 Q: All right. You're pointing to X 7 on 3 the map. 4 A: X 9. 5 Q: X 9 on the map. 6 A: And I was around there, this area. 7 Q: And you were in behind the fence. 8 A: Next to -- yeah. 9 Q: Can you help us with how far away 10 that would have been? 11 A: I don't know. Can't really say. 12 Q: All right. Ms. Tuck-Jackson asked 13 you about seeing the police after you ran back and saw 14 Dudley. Do you recall that line of questioning? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And she asked you whether or not you 17 saw the police after Dudley was taken away in the "OPP 18 Who" car. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I think you'd answered no. At 21 any point in time, after Dudley George was taken away in 22 the "OPP Who" car, did you see the police come back to 23 the area where he was shot? 24 A: I can't recall right now. 25 Q: Mr. Roland asked you about the bus
1561 pushing the police back. Do you recall that line of 2 questioning? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you'd mentioned something in your 5 answer that I took down in my notes as being, "the same 6 thing they did to us." 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Can you explain what you meant by 9 that comment? 10 A: Well, by them using all their shields 11 to force us back into the Park, we were using the bus as 12 the same type of thing to push them back. 13 Q: You were using the bus to push the 14 police back -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- out of the area? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Those are all my questions, Mr. 19 Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 Ms. Vella...? 22 23 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: Mr. Roland asked you some questions 25 with respect to any communications you had with Layton
1571 Elijah or others at Oneida in relation to your attendance 2 at the Park and you indicated to him that there was a 3 telephone call that you made earlier in the day on 4 September the 6th -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- to Layton Elijah -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- and that someone from Stony Point 9 then spoke with Layton Elijah -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- and is it your recollection that 12 this person was asking for assistance? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And to your knowledge, 15 was a decision ultimately made by the traditional Council 16 in relation to the request for assistance? 17 A: The -- the decision wasn't made until 18 after. 19 Q: All right. What was the decision? 20 A: That they would send some people 21 down, but at that point, Dudley was already shot. 22 Q: Did -- did more assistance in the 23 form of Warriors from Oneida attend at Ipperwash 24 Provincial Park? 25 A: Yes.
1581 Q: When was that? 2 A: I believe it was on the 7th. 3 Q: September the 7th? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you know what the purpose of their 6 attendance was? 7 A: Not really, no. 8 Q: Can you tell me the names of those 9 individuals who came under the direction of the 10 traditional Council on the 7th? 11 A: I can't really remember who all went. 12 There was a few people. 13 Q: All right. You have no recollection 14 of who those people were? 15 A: Yeah, I know some of them. 16 Q: Can you tell me? 17 A: Well, Darryl Christian (phonetic) -- 18 Q: Darryl? 19 A: That's one of them. 20 Q: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. 21 A: Darryl Christian. 22 Q: How do you spell that? 23 A: I don't know. 24 Q: Okay. Yeah. 25 A: Darryl Ireland (phonetic). Layton
1591 Elijah was there. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: Those are basically the only ones I 4 can remember. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: There was more people there, but I 7 can't recall them right now. 8 Q: And do you know what their function 9 was? 10 A: They were just Warriors. 11 Q: Yes, but any specific tasks that they 12 were assigned to your knowledge? 13 A: Just to -- I think they were asked to 14 patrol the area, keep all outsiders out. 15 Q: And to your knowledge did they bring 16 any firearms into the Park? 17 A: No, they never. 18 Q: You were shown a photograph by Mr. 19 Roland of an individual in the maintenance shed. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now do you -- you indicated that you 22 may have been there -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- during the early morning hours of 25 the 6th?
1601 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Because that's where coffee was made. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Do you recall what the sources of 5 heat were to the maintenance shed at that time? 6 A: I think it was heated by propane or 7 something. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. Thank you very much. 11 Those are my questions. 12 A: Yeah. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 Thank you very much. That's it then. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Does that conclude -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's it, 17 Mr. Doxtator, for you. Thank you very much for coming 18 and giving us your evidence. You're free to leave. 19 20 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is a 23 good time to take a break. Our staff usually eat in the 24 Board Room. Today, we're going out for lunch, so we 25 might be a bit late. Why don't we adjourn until 2:15?
1611 From 1:00 -- from, it's almost 1:00 now. We'll adjourn 2 until 2:15? 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 4 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 5 Inquiry stands adjourned until 2:15. 6 7 --- Upon adjourning at 12:55 p.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 2:22 p.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 11 Inquiry is now resumed. Please be seated. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good afternoon. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 17 afternoon. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission calls as 19 its next witness Wesley George. And can I just ask you, 20 Mr. George, to speak into the microphone so that we -- we 21 can all hear you. 22 23 WESLEY GARDENER GEORGE, Sworn 24 25 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
1621 Q: Mr. George, I understand that you 2 were born on January the 10th, 1980? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And your parents are Pamela Plain 5 Wrightman (phonetic) and Alwood Tracey George (phonetic)? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And your maternal grandmother is 8 Sharon Plain? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: I also understand that your paternal 11 grandparents are Abraham George and Meredith George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, did Abraham George have a 14 nickname to your knowledge? 15 A: Hamster. 16 Q: All right. And did any of your 17 relatives live on the former Stony Point reserve which 18 subsequently became Camp Ipperwash? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Can you tell me who? 21 A: Like -- 22 Q: Who to -- 23 A: My cousins or -- just my family. 24 Q: Your family. 25 A: That lived there all the time or
1631 stayed there or what? 2 Q: That -- who lived there back when it 3 was Stony Point Reserve. 4 A: It still is. 5 Q: Okay. Do you know -- did either of 6 your grandparents live at the former Stony Point Reserve 7 prior to it becoming Camp Ipperwash? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Can you tell me which ones? 10 A: Abraham George and Muriel. 11 Q: I'm sorry? And who? 12 A: Muriel. 13 Q: Muriel George? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: His wife. 17 Q: Boyd? 18 A: His wife. 19 Q: His wife, I'm sorry, thank you. Now 20 did you learn about the -- the Stony Point Reserve when 21 you were growing up? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Who did you learn it from? 24 A: My grandfather. 25 Q: Abraham?
1641 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And can you just give us a sense as 3 to what he told you about the Stony Point reserve? 4 A: He just told me that that's where he 5 grew up. 6 Q: All right. Did he advise you as to 7 how this land became Camp Ipperwash? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: What did he tell you? 10 A: That the army had to use it for a 11 training facility or something for the war, or something 12 like that. 13 Q: All right. Did you have any 14 understanding as to when, if ever, the former reserve 15 would be returned? 16 A: Not an exact date, no. 17 Q: But then -- do you have any 18 understanding at all though, about that? 19 A: Somewhat, yeah. 20 Q: And what was your understanding? 21 A: That they were supposed to give it 22 back in forty (40) years or something around that time. 23 Q: Okay. Did you attend the funeral of 24 Dan George? 25 A: In Kettle Point.
1651 Q: The funeral in Kettle Point? All 2 right. And did -- did you attend at Stoney Point for the 3 burial? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. Were you aware of any 6 burial grounds in or around Camp Ipperwash or the Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay, can you tell me when -- what 9 you were aware of? 10 A: That there was burial grounds. 11 Q: Where? 12 A: And that's -- that's just it. In the 13 Park, in around -- in the area, like, I don't know for 14 sure, but I was just told they were there. 15 Q: Who told you that? 16 A: My grandfather. 17 Q: And do you recall when, 18 approximately, he started to talk to you about those 19 burial grounds? 20 A: In the 90's. I can't remember exact 21 dates, but -- 22 Q: Okay, was it prior to 1995 or after? 23 A: After and maybe before. I'm not too 24 sure, though. 25 Q: Okay. Did you learn any traditional
1661 teachings concerning burial grounds and care for the 2 ancestors? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what is it that you learned? 5 A: That you're supposed to feed the 6 spirits and give them tobacco when you talk to them or 7 sage, cedar, stuff like that. 8 Q: Okay. And who did learn that -- that 9 from, primarily? 10 A: My mother. 11 Q: At some point in time, did you become 12 personally involved in the efforts to reclaim the former 13 Stoney Point Reserve? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Can you tell me when you first 16 became directly involved? 17 A: Late '93, early '94. 18 Q: All right. And why did you get 19 involved at that time? 20 A: Because my family was involved. 21 Q: All right. Can you tell me what -- 22 how it is that you got involved? What you did in terms 23 of the involvement? 24 A: I was just there to -- for support 25 and helping my family.
1671 Q: Okay. And when you say you were just 2 there, where -- where -- where were you? 3 A: I was on the ranges, or whatever. 4 Q: The ranges of Camp Ipperwash? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. So you -- you supported, by 7 your physical presence? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Did you participate in 10 any demonstrations or any walks? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Were you there -- do you believe you 13 were there in -- you said late -- either late 1993 or 14 early 1994. Is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And can you tell me 17 approximately what time of the year you attended at the - 18 - at Camp Ipperwash? 19 A: In the fall, I believe. 20 Q: All right. How long did you stay 21 there? 22 A: Just the weekend. 23 Q: And at this time were you in school? 24 In -- in -- early -- in '93/94? 25 A: Yes, I was.
1681 Q: Where did you attend school? 2 A: Alexander MacKenzie. 3 Q: And where is that located? 4 A: Sarnia. 5 Q: All right. And so, did you live in 6 Sarnia during the school year? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Where did you live? 9 A: In Kettle Point. 10 Q: All right. And you travelled back 11 and forth? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Did you also stay at the 14 -- on the Camp lands during the summer of 1994? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And how long, approximately, over the 17 summer did you stay? 18 A: A couple of weekends. 19 Q: All right. At any time did you move 20 onto the Camp Ipperwash lands? 21 A: Not moved, just stayed. 22 Q: All right. And when you stayed, 23 would it be for a period of -- of a couple of nights at a 24 time or thereabouts? 25 A: Weekend.
1691 Q: Weekends? Okay. And how many 2 weekends would you stay there in the course of a month? 3 A: One (1), two (2). 4 Q: Okay. Who did you stay with when you 5 were at the Camp Ipperwash lands? 6 A: Dudley or Marlin Simon. 7 Q: Dudley George and -- and Marlin 8 Simon? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And at some point in time, did 11 you also stay with your cousin, Harley George? 12 A: No, I never stayed with him. 13 Q: Okay. Did you visit him? 14 A: No, he -- he didn't live there. 15 Q: All right. When -- when you would be 16 at the Camp Ipperwash lands in '93 and '94, did you 17 participate in any -- any of the security measures there? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. Did you -- would you 20 patrol around the Camp Ipperwash lands? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did anyone from the military ever 23 tell you that you should not be there? 24 A: Not directly. 25 Q: All right. Did you receive that
1701 message in some way? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Were you -- are you familiar with the 4 reported helicopter shooting incident? 5 A: What do you mean? 6 Q: Are you -- are you aware that there 7 was an allegation made that a helicopter was shot over 8 Camp Ipperwash? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And were you present at that time? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did you ever hunt at Camp Ipperwash 13 in '93 or '94? 14 A: No. 15 Q: At that time did you own or possess 16 any firearms? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Did you visit the Army camp at all, 23 in 1995? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And when did you first visit the Army
1711 camp? 2 A: I can't recall. 3 Q: All right. Were you still in school 4 in 1994 to 1995? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And did you attend school that year? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. So is it fair to say that 9 -- that you attended at the Camp Ipperwash on weekends 10 from time to time? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Were you present on July 29th, 1995 13 when the occupants of Camp Ipperwash walked into the 14 barracks? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did you know about that event 17 before it happened? Did you know that that was going to 18 happen? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And how is it that you knew? 21 A: We talked about it before it 22 happened. 23 Q: All right. Do you recall how far in 24 advance of July 29th that was talked about? 25 A: No.
1721 Q: Do you recall where the meeting took 2 place? 3 A: On the beach. 4 Q: On the beach of Camp Ipperwash? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Was it in a -- a facility, a 7 structure at some kind? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. Can you recall who else 10 was at the meeting? 11 A: A couple of my cousins. 12 Q: Who were they? 13 A: One was Glennie George and Marlin 14 Simon. I can't remember who else was there, though. 15 Q: Okay. Do you think there were others 16 there? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And what was the result 19 of that discussion at the meeting? In other words, was a 20 decision made at that meeting? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: What was the decision? 23 A: That we were going to take over the 24 barracks. 25 Q: Okay. And did you determine a date
1731 at that meeting? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. How did you -- how did 4 you find out that the barracks were going to be taken 5 over on July the 29th? 6 A: I was at a meeting. 7 Q: Another meeting? 8 A: No the same one (1) we just got done 9 talking about. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: But I -- we didn't have no time at 12 that time to, like -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- I don't even know when it came 15 about, the time to takeover the barracks. It just 16 happened. 17 Q: Did you just happen to be at Camp 18 Ipperwash on July 29th by coincidence? 19 A: No, I was staying there on the beach. 20 Q: Okay. Can you tell me then your best 21 recollection of going into the barracks, who you went in 22 with and what time of day? 23 A: In the afternoon before evening we 24 went into the barracks on the roadway along Highway 21. 25 Q: Okay. When you say the roadway along
1741 Highway 21, this was a roadway inside the Park? 2 A: Inside the barracks. 3 Q: Inside the Camp Ipperwash? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. All right. And who did you go 6 with? 7 A: Marlin Simon and a couple of my 8 cousins. I can't recall who was exactly in the car. 9 Q: Okay. And where did you enter the 10 barracks? 11 A: Along Highway 21. 12 Q: Did you go in through the main Army 13 Camp gate or somewhere else? 14 A: Just down along the road that goes 15 into the barracks along Highway 21. 16 Q: Okay. Right. All right. And when 17 you got into the barracks, were there -- was the military 18 still there? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And were there other people from the 21 group who came into the barracks at that time? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did you witness any incidents 24 involving a -- a bus? 25 A: No.
1751 Q: Did you witness any incidents 2 involving a military car being struck? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Did you have any direct encounters 5 with military personnel that day? 6 A: I don't believe so. 7 Q: Do you recall whether or not any 8 military person asked you to leave or asked the group to 9 leave? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. Can you just describe for 12 me then what it was you saw as you entered the barracks 13 and what happened over the next couple of hours? 14 A: There was just blockades on the road 15 and like barb wire fence, little wood dolly and we 16 removed those. They had spike belts or roto-tiller 17 belts, whatever they're called, and talked to the 18 military, well not me directly, but they'd did -- offered 19 us to have a couple of places for the people to stay on 20 the one (1) side of the barracks. 21 And then I don't know whoever they talked 22 to, but a couple of hours later they just packed up and 23 left. 24 Q: All right. Now did you actually move 25 into the barracks at that time?
1761 A: Yes. 2 Q: And do you recall where you stayed? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Where did you stay? 5 A: In the barrack. 6 Q: Do you know what building number? 7 A: Not exactly, no. I know the building 8 though. 9 Q: If I showed you a diagram, do you 10 think you might be able to pick it out? 11 A: Yeah. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: All right. I'm showing to you behind 16 you on the screen, Exhibit Number P-41 and it's a diagram 17 of the barracks of Camp Ipperwash. And do you have the 18 laser pointer there in front of you? There's a pen. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Can you point out what building you 21 were at? 22 A: This building here. Right on the 23 corner. 24 Q: Okay. And if I can read the writing, 25 it looks like it's -- Building 46 possibly?
1771 A: This one right here? 2 Q: Okay. Why don't I -- just to -- I'm 3 going to bring you up a hardcopy of the map and I'm just 4 going to ask you to mark it and then we'll mark it as an 5 exhibit. 6 If you could just put a circle around the 7 building that you moved into on that diagram of the 8 barracks and maybe put your initials there? 9 A: What's that? 10 Q: Just put your initial on there. All 11 right. I'd like to tender that document as the next 12 exhibit, Commissioner. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-97. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-97. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-97: Document 2002409, Page 35, 17 Schematic Diagram of military Barracks, 18 Camp Ipperwash, Marked by witness Mr. 19 Gabriel Doxtator, Nov 30/04 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Now, how long did you stay in that 23 building at the barracks? 24 A: A week or two (2). 25 Q: All right. And where did you go
1781 after that? 2 A: After that? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Or -- no -- I don't mean a week or 5 two (2), a day or two (2) or so. 6 Q: Oh, a day or two (2) you stayed 7 there? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And then -- and then where did 10 you go? 11 A: After? 12 Q: After you left the barracks? 13 A: After the day or two (2) I spent 14 there? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: To the hospital. 17 Q: Okay. I understand you were involved 18 in an accident? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And how long did you stay in the 21 hospital? 22 A: I don't know for sure, a week or two 23 (2). 24 Q: All right. And after you left the 25 hospital, where did you go to live?
1791 A: Sarnia. 2 Q: Okay. All right. So you were at the 3 barracks, then, for a total of one (1) or two (2) days 4 before you went back to Sarnia? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And while you were at the barracks, 7 did you see anybody with any firearms? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And did you have any firearms at that 10 time? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did you return to the Army Camp? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do you recall approximately when you 15 returned to the barracks? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: Okay. Were you there in advance of 18 the Park occupation? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And approximately how long before? 21 A: A few days. 22 Q: All right. And when you returned to 23 the Army Camp then, a few days before the Park 24 occupation, had anything in the Army Camp changed from 25 before?
1801 A: There was a few more people. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: And that's it. 4 Q: Now, were there people there who were 5 not from Kettle and Stony Point? 6 A: Might have been a few. 7 Q: Do you recall who those were? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. Now, was your dad at the 10 barracks at this time? 11 A: I don't believe so; he might have 12 been. 13 Q: Okay. Were you part of the initial 14 group that went into the Ipperwash Provincial Park on 15 September the 4th, 1995? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And was there any discussion 18 in advance of that date to plan the occupation of the 19 Park that you were aware of? 20 A: I'm pretty sure there was. 21 Q: All right. And were you part of 22 those discussions? 23 A: I might have been at one (1) or two 24 (2). 25 Q: Did you know in advance of September
1811 4th that that was the day that people would go into the 2 Park? 3 A: We just had discussions and it was 4 just talk and didn't know it was actually going to 5 happen. 6 Q: All right. Now, what time of the day 7 did you enter the Park on September the 4th? 8 A: In the afternoon or evening hours, 9 something around there. 10 Q: Was it still daylight or dark time -- 11 dark -- darkness? 12 A: I'm pretty sure it was still 13 daylight. 14 Q: Okay. And can you tell me what 15 entrance to the Park you entered? 16 A: Matheson Drive. 17 Q: Okay. Is that the west end of the 18 Park, more or less? 19 A: I guess so. 20 Q: Was it the road that passed by the 21 maintenance shed? 22 A: No. 23 Q: It's a different entrance? 24 A: Yeah, it's Matheson Drive on the 25 other side of the Park.
1821 Q: Okay. Was that -- was there a gate 2 there? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And was the gate open or closed when 5 you went through it? 6 A: I believe it was open. 7 Q: Okay. Did you meet any resistance at 8 all when you attempted to enter the Park? 9 A: No. There was already people in the 10 Park. 11 Q: All right. And who did you enter the 12 Park with? 13 A: Nicholas Cottrelle. 14 Q: Okay. Anyone else? 15 A: There might have been someone else in 16 the vehicle. I don't know who it was, though. 17 Q: Okay. Whose vehicle was it? 18 A: Nicholas Cottrelle's. 19 Q: All right. And was he driving? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So you drove into the Park, and where 22 did you go? 23 A: We went to the store, I believe. 24 Q: The Park store area? 25 A: Yeah.
1831 Q: All right. And what did you do 2 there? 3 A: Standing there, talking to people, 4 whoever was in the Park. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: At the time. 7 Q: Did you encounter anyone from either 8 the OPP or the Ministry of Natural Resources in the Park? 9 A: There was at one (1) point. I don't 10 know exact time or nothing. 11 Q: All right. Was it after you -- 12 obviously this was after you entered? 13 A: It was before. I was there and I 14 left and I came back. 15 Q: Okay. So let's try to get our time 16 line right. You entered the Park, probably in the late 17 afternoon, you go to the Park store area. How long do 18 you stay for? 19 A: A while, anyway. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I don't think I left after that. 22 Q: You don't think you -- 23 A: I never left, like, any time soon 24 after I got there. 25 Q: All right. When did you meet the
1841 person from the Ministry? 2 A: I never met the person who -- I just 3 seen him in there, talking to whoever was standing in a 4 circle. 5 Q: All right. Do you think it was that 6 day? 7 A: Yeah, it was -- it was that day. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: 'Cause they told the person, the 10 Ministry of Natural Resources that we were going to be 11 taking over the Park. 12 Q: Okay. Did you actually overhear that 13 conversation? 14 A: Yes, I was there at that time. 15 Q: And do you know who -- who was doing 16 the talking? 17 A: No, I was on the outside of the 18 circle. 19 Q: All right. How long did you stay in 20 the Park on September the 4th? 21 A: I don't know. I was there pretty 22 much the whole time. Just left a few times and it wasn't 23 very long, if I did leave. 24 Q: All right. Did you spend the night 25 in the Park?
1851 A: No, I didn't. 2 Q: All right. Then can you give me a 3 sense as to what time you left the Park for good that 4 day? 5 A: I have no idea. 6 Q: Was it dark? 7 A: Yeah, it was dark. 8 Q: Do you think it was before or after 9 midnight? 10 A: Probably after. 11 Q: Okay. Did you see any police 12 officers around the Park when you were there on September 13 the 4th? 14 A: There was police officers there, I'm 15 pretty sure. 16 Q: And were they on foot or in cruisers 17 or both? 18 A: Well, if I had a good time line, 19 yeah, there was probably officers there in cruisers and 20 on foot. I don't know. 21 Q: And did the officers address the 22 group from outside the Park? 23 A: Were the officers standing on the 24 outside of the Park talking to us? 25 Q: Yes.
1861 A: Not that I can recall. There was 2 officers in the Park the first night we were there. 3 Q: All right. And how many officers 4 were in the Park on September the 4th, when you were 5 there? 6 A: Well, if it's the same night I'm 7 thinking about there were a couple of cruisers there. 8 Q: All right. And what were they doing? 9 A: There were some telling us to leave 10 and I don't know what else they were doing there. 11 Standing there. 12 Q: And what was -- what was the response 13 of the group to the officer's advice that you should 14 leave the Park? 15 A: That we weren't going to leave. 16 Q: Do you remember who told them that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Do you recall -- 19 A: I don't even know if they were told 20 that, but -- 21 Q: Do you -- I'm sorry. 22 A: But that's what -- that's what 23 happened. They were -- someone probably told them that, 24 but they got the hint, anyway, that we weren't leaving. 25 Q: All right. Were you present when
1871 there was an encounter involving Roderick Judas George 2 and the police that night? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Can you tell me what you saw and 5 heard of that encounter? 6 A: Judas just told the cops to get out 7 of there and he gave them, I don't know, a couple of 8 seconds to leave. 9 Q: And then what happened? 10 A: Then he started counting and he hit 11 the cop cruiser with a stick. 12 Q: He hit who? 13 A: The cop cruiser. 14 Q: Okay. And what happened to the 15 cruiser when Judas hit it? 16 A: I don't know, I believe he smashed 17 the window or something. I don't know. 18 Q: All right. Did you see him do that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And can you please describe, as 21 carefully as you can, what the -- the stick looked like? 22 A: I don't know, it looked like a stick. 23 I -- I can't tell. 24 Q: How big was it? 25 A: I have no idea.
1881 Q: And what did the police cruisers do 2 after the car window was smashed? 3 A: They got in their cruisers and left. 4 Q: All right. Did they come back into 5 the Park after that? 6 A: I don't think so. I'm not too sure. 7 Q: Did they -- did the police continue 8 to have a presence outside of the Park after that event? 9 A: I believe so. 10 Q: All right. Did you -- were you 11 involved in any measures to secure the Park that -- on 12 Monday night? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. Did you observe others in 15 the group taking measures to secure the Park? 16 A: No. 17 Q: To you knowledge, were there 18 checkposts set up by -- by the occupants? 19 A: I don't believe so. 20 Q: All right. Were any trees chopped 21 down that night? 22 A: I never seen none. 23 Q: Were there any fires lit that night? 24 A: Probably a couple. 25 Q: All right. Do you -- do you recall
1891 where they were lit? 2 A: One (1) in the parking lot by the 3 store and maybe another one in the grassy area -- 4 Q: All right. 5 A: -- by the store. 6 Q: And were these two (2) locations 7 inside the Park? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. So, they're behind the 10 Park fence? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. So, the parking lot 13 you're talking about is the one up to the east of the 14 poplar trees? 15 A: Inside the Park, yes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: There might have been one (1) on the 18 outside of the Park, too, out on -- in the sandy area. I 19 don't know, I'm not too sure. I don't think so, though. 20 Q: Okay. Now, did you have any strobe 21 lights with you that night? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And why did you have them? 24 A: My father gave them to me. 25 Q: All right. And can you describe what
1901 these strobe lights looked like and what they did? 2 A: They were about the size of a water 3 bottle cap, about this round, a little wick about that 4 big. Got like a muffin cup on the outside. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: And they just -- a little flame -- 7 or, not a flame, more like sparks come off of them like a 8 lighter -- 9 Q: Yeah? 10 A: -- and they change colour and they 11 smoke a little bit. 12 Q: All right. And how long do they emit 13 a flame? 14 A: I have no idea, a couple -- maybe a 15 minute or less. I don't know. 16 Q: Okay. And what did you do with these 17 strobe lights on Monday night? 18 A: I lit them and I threw them towards 19 the officers. 20 Q: And why did you do that? 21 A: I don't know, just felt the urge to. 22 Q: Sorry? 23 A: I -- I have no idea. I just -- I 24 don't know. I wasn't trying to hit them or nothing, 25 because I play baseball and if I wanted to hit them, I
1911 could have hit them. 2 Q: All right. And, to your knowledge, 3 did any of the lit strobe lights hit any of the police 4 officers? 5 A: I have no idea. 6 Q: All right. How many did you have, 7 approximately, that you threw at police officers that 8 night? 9 A: I don't know. A couple packs. 10 Q: And how many are in a pack? 11 A: Three (3). 12 Q: Okay. Where did you sleep that 13 night? 14 A: In the barracks. 15 Q: Did you see anyone with firearms in 16 the Park that night 17 A: No. 18 Q: Or in the barracks that night? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Was anybody setting off firecrackers 21 that night? 22 A: Might have been. I don't -- I don't 23 know. 24 Q: All right. Did you hear any gunshots 25 that night?
1921 A: No. 2 Q: Did you return to the Park the next 3 day? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And do you know approximately what 6 time of day you returned to the Park? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Was it in the morning? Or afternoon, 9 evening? 10 A: I -- I have no idea. 11 Q: All right. What did you do when you 12 arrived at the Park? 13 A: I can't recall what I was doing. 14 Q: Now were you present during an 15 incident involving picnic tables on September the 5th? 16 A: I believe I was, yes. 17 Q: All right. Can you tell me what time 18 of day this event occurred? 19 A: In the evening hours, I'm pretty 20 sure. 21 Q: So it was dark out? 22 A: I don't know. It could have been. I 23 can't remember it's -- that's like ten (10) years ago or 24 something. 25 Q: That's fair enough. All right. Can
1931 you tell me how -- where the picnic tables were? 2 A: In the sandy parking lot. 3 Q: So this is in the sandy parking lot 4 outside of the fence? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Approximately how many picnic tables 7 were there? 8 A: I don't know. Ten (10) or more, 9 something like that. 10 Q: And do you recall what formation they 11 took? 12 A: Like a moon shape or something. I 13 can't remember which way but it was, like, supposed to be 14 a circle because we were going to have a wiener roast, 15 hot dogs. 16 Q: All right. And did you have a 17 bonfire there at that time? 18 A: I can't remember if it was lit or 19 not. I -- I don't think so. 20 Q: All right. And where were you when 21 this incident happened? 22 A: I was in the inside of the fence. 23 Q: Okay. So you were in the Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And tell me what it is you observed
1941 involving the picnic tables. 2 A: The cops coming in the parking lot 3 off of Math -- Army Camp Road. Two (2) or three (3) of 4 them came in, maybe four (4). One (1) straight up by the 5 turnstile, hit the picnic tables there and that's all I 6 can remember. And then the cops getting out of their 7 vehicles. 8 Q: Okay. Now I think you just said to 9 me that one (1) of the police -- firstly, were these -- 10 when you say three (3) or four (4), are you talking about 11 cruisers or police officers? 12 A: Cruisers. 13 Q: All right. And you -- I think you 14 said one (1) came up by the turnstile? 15 A: Yes. There was a couple of them 16 standing at the front of the one (1) cruiser closest to 17 the turnstile. 18 Q: Okay. Now as you saw the -- the cars 19 travelling along Army Camp Road towards the beach, can 20 you tell me what the actions of those police cruisers 21 were? 22 A: What do you mean? 23 Q: Well, I want you to draw a picture 24 for us in words, telling us the exact activity of the 25 police cruisers as they approached the picnic tables.
1951 A: Well, they just pulled up there and 2 rammed the picnic tables. Hard enough to break them and 3 move them. 4 Q: How many cruisers made contact with 5 picnic tables? 6 A: One (1) that I seen. 7 Q: All right. And how many picnic 8 tables did it hit? 9 A: I have no idea. One (1) that I seen 10 it strike. 11 Q: And who was in the sandy parking lot 12 area at the time that the picnic table struck -- I'm 13 sorry, the car struck the picnic table? 14 A: I have no idea who was in that area. 15 Q: All right. Do you know what 16 positions those people were in as the cruisers approached 17 the picnic table? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. And you said the picnic 20 table was broken as a result? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And -- and how do you know that? 23 A: I seen it with my eyes. 24 Q: Where was it broken? 25 A: On the bottom of the picnic table,
1961 where the legs go up. 2 Q: All right. So part of the under 3 structure of it? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what happened to the picnic table 6 as it was being hit? 7 A: It broke. 8 Q: Okay. And did something else happen 9 to the picnic table? 10 A: Not that I know of. 11 Q: Okay. Did you see anybody throw a 12 picnic table on the hood of a police cruiser during this 13 event? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. And you indicated that 16 there were some police officers standing by the 17 turnstile? 18 A: Not by the turnstile but close -- the 19 car that was closest to the turnstile, the officer got 20 out, went around and he was by the passenger side, the 21 front tire and there might have been another officer 22 beside him at the front of the vehicle, maybe, but I know 23 there was one (1) officer that got out anyway and he was 24 closest to the fence where the turnstile was, where we 25 were standing.
1971 Q: And what did he do, if anything? 2 A: He told Dudley that he was going to 3 be the first to go or to die. 4 Q: Do you recall the exact words that 5 were spoken? 6 A: I think it -- it might have been, 7 Dudley, you're going to be the first. I can't remember 8 exactly but it was something like that. 9 Q: All right. Are you able -- did you - 10 - did you see this police officer when he said this? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And can you describe that police 13 officer for us? 14 A: I don't know exactly how tall he was. 15 He had sandy blonde hair, shaved on the side like a flat 16 top, goatee, maybe a little sideburn. He was Caucasian 17 and I don't know, he might have been my height, 5'8" to 18 5'10" or something like that. I don't know. I was 19 younger then so it's hard for me to tell. 20 Q: You were shorter then? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And what about his body build? 23 A: Medium body build maybe. Maybe, I 24 don't know. It's hard to say. 25 Q: All right. Do you remember anything
1981 else about this police officer? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. Had you -- had you seen 4 this police officer before? 5 A: I never seen him before, no. 6 Q: All right. And did this exchange 7 happen before or afer the police cruiser struck the 8 picnic table? 9 A: What's that? 10 Q: Did this exchange with Dudley George 11 happen before or after the picnic table was struck? 12 A: It was after. 13 Q: All right. Was this police officer 14 in one of the cruisers that approached the picnic tables? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Was he in the cruiser that actually 17 hit the picnic table? 18 A: I'm not too sure. I believe he was. 19 I don't know. He could have got out of one (1) of the 20 other cruisers. I don't know for sure. 21 Q: All right. Fair enough. And was 22 there any reaction by the group of occupants to this 23 exchange with Dudley George? 24 A: Somebody threw sand in one (1) of the 25 cop's face after he said that.
1991 Q: And -- 2 A: And then they pepper sprayed us. 3 Q: Who pepper sprayed you? 4 A: The cops. 5 Q: Okay. Did you actually get hit with 6 pepper spray? 7 A: Not me, no. 8 Q: Do you know who threw the sand in the 9 police officer's face? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: Do you recall who else was with you 12 when this happened at the fence? 13 A: Marlin Simon was standing beside me 14 and I can't remember, but there was people standing 15 behind me. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: In the inside of the turnstile. 18 Q: And obviously Dudley George was 19 there? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you remember anyone else? 22 A: I know Buck Doxtator was there. I 23 can't remember who else was there. There was a few 24 people there, anyway. 25 Q: Okay, fair enough. And after the
2001 pepper spray was sprayed, what -- what did you do? 2 A: I ducked out of the way and -- and I 3 got inside the fence. 4 Q: All right. Well, what side of the 5 fence were you on when this happened? 6 A: I was on the outside of the fence. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Standing on the outside of the 9 turnstile. 10 Q: How about Dudley George? Where was 11 he? 12 A: He might have been directly behind 13 me, like, in between, because there was, like, a space 14 between me and Marlin. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And then there was him behind us. 17 Q: Was he outside of the fence, too? 18 A: I don't know for sure. He might have 19 been, I don't -- I can't tell you for sure. 20 Q: What did the police do after the 21 pepper spray? 22 A: I believe they got back in their cars 23 and left. 24 Q: All right. Now, did anyone from the 25 group throw rocks at the cars?
2011 A: Do you mean right there? 2 Q: Right there. 3 A: I don't believe so. I don't think 4 so. Not right there. 5 Q: All right. Did they throw them at 6 the cars later? 7 A: Yes, when they were leaving, yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And how many rocks -- do you 9 know how many rocks got thrown? 10 A: I don't know how much rocks got 11 thrown, no. 12 Q: Do you know whether any made contact 13 with the departing cruisers? 14 A: I know one (1) rock probably did. 15 Q: How do you know that? 16 A: Because I threw it. 17 Q: Okay. And do you know, did you break 18 a window or make a dent, or do you know? 19 A: I don't know for sure. I might have 20 broke the window. I can't say for sure, though. 21 Q: All right. Did you draw any 22 conclusions about the police in terms of Dudley George 23 after this -- after this incident? 24 A: What do you mean? 25 Q: Well, did you form any impressions
2021 about the police and their attitudes towards Dudley 2 George after this incident? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right. Did you witness any other 5 forms of police presence, either at or around the Park on 6 Tuesday? 7 A: I believe there was a roadblock on 8 Army Camp Road if -- if that's the day I'm thinking about 9 correctly. I don't know. 10 Q: Okay, and by "roadblock" what do you 11 mean? What -- what did you see? 12 A: Just a couple of officers standing 13 there. There might have been a cruiser and they had spike 14 belts on the road. 15 Q: Okay. Did you see any helicopters 16 that day? 17 A: Yes, I think. 18 Q: How many do you think you saw? 19 A: There could have been anywhere from 20 one (1) to three (3) different helicopters. I'm not too 21 sure. 22 Q: Can you describe them? 23 A: I think one (1) was yellow and a 24 white one (1) and there might have been another white one 25 (1) -- two (2) white ones and a yellow one (1). I'm
2031 pretty sure -- there was a yellow one (1) for sure. 2 Q: All right. How can you be so sure 3 that there was a yellow helicopter over the Park. 4 A: I seen it. 5 Q: All right. All right. 6 A: I'm pretty sure it was yellow, 7 anyway. 8 Q: And can you -- do you know what it 9 was doing, besides flying? 10 A: One (1) of them had a guy hanging out 11 the side of the helicopter with a camera. 12 Q: All right. And did you make any 13 gestures towards the helicopter? 14 A: Not that I can recall, no. 15 Q: Do you recall how -- how high the 16 helicopters were flying? 17 A: Treetop level. 18 Q: All right. And do you know, or do 19 you recall, whether any rocks were thrown at the 20 helicopters? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Did you throw any? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And to your knowledge did you hit any 25 helicopters?
2041 A: No, I don't think so. 2 Q: All right. Did you see others 3 throwing rocks at the helicopter? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Do you know whether anyone hit the 6 helicopter with a rock? 7 A: I don't think so; I don't believe so, 8 no. 9 Q: All right. Do you recall whether 10 Dave George was one (1) of the people throwing rocks at 11 the helicopter? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Did you see any police presence off 14 the shore? 15 A: Maybe if I had binoculars. I can't 16 see that far but there was a boat out there. 17 Q: Are you able to describe the boat at 18 all? 19 A: No. I can't describe the boat. 20 Q: All right. Because it was too far 21 out? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: How long was it there on Tuesday, do 24 you know? 25 A: I don't know. Well, I looked out
2051 there it was out there for a while. It was parked there 2 after dark. 3 Q: Were there any roadblocks or police 4 checks up at Highway 21 and Army Camp Road to your 5 knowledge? 6 A: On the corner. 7 Q: On the corner? 8 A: Yeah. I'm pretty sure they had one 9 (1) at the corner directly across from the gate or in 10 between the gate and the highway. 11 Q: So you saw two (2) police checks and 12 you saw some spiked belts on Army Camp Road, is that 13 fair? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Did you see any other police presence 16 along the road there? 17 A: I don't think so, no. 18 Q: Other than what you've described 19 obviously. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. Now do you recall 22 approximately how many people were in the Park on 23 Tuesday? 24 A: No, I have no idea. 25 Q: Do you -- did you see whether there
2061 were other people your age at the Park? 2 A: There might have been one (1) or two 3 (2). 4 Q: All right. Were there any younger? 5 A: I believe so. I don't know. 6 Q: And were there any women that you saw 7 at the Park? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Were you involved in any traditional 10 ceremonies at the Park? 11 A: When? 12 Q: Either on Wednesday or Tuesday or 13 Wednesday? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. Did you witness any 16 attempts by police officers to communicate with the Park 17 occupants on Tuesday? 18 A: I don't know. I don't understand the 19 question. 20 Q: Well other -- other than the exchange 21 you told me involving Dudley George, did you see police 22 at the fence trying to get the attention of occupants? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you see occupants trying to get 25 the attention of the police during that day?
2071 A: I still don't understand the 2 question. 3 Q: Did you see any attempts by any of 4 the Park occupants to speak with police officers? 5 A: No, no. 6 Q: Did you see any -- anyone in the Park 7 with mirrors that day? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what were the -- well firstly, 10 who did you see with mirrors? 11 A: I can't recall who had the mirrors. 12 I was probably one (1) of them. 13 Q: And what were you doing with the 14 mirror? 15 A: Shining them in the direction of the 16 officers sitting on the road. 17 Q: Why were you doing that? 18 A: So they couldn't look over at us. 19 Q: Did it work? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: How long did you keep that up for? 22 A: I don't know. A little while 23 Q: Did you see anybody light off 24 firecrackers either during the day or night on Tuesday? 25 A: No. I don't recall, no.
2081 Q: All right. Did you see anyone with 2 firearms in the Park that day? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Did you hear about any plans to bring 5 guns into the Park? 6 A: What day is this? 7 Q: Tuesday. 8 A: Not that I can remember, no. 9 Q: Did you hear about plans to bring 10 guns into the Park on some other day? 11 A: Just when Bernard, Slippery, was 12 going to bring some and that's the only time. 13 Q: Okay. And was that on the 6th? 14 A: I believe it was, I don't know. I'm 15 not too sure. 16 Q: All right. I'll get to that then in 17 a little bit. Now did you hear anything that sounded 18 like gunshots on Tuesday, either during the day or night? 19 A: I don't know. I'm not too sure. I 20 don't -- I don't recall hearing anything that sounded 21 like a gunshot. 22 Q: All right. There may be evidence at 23 this Inquiry that there were reports of gunshots being 24 heard in and around the Park or Army Camp on Tuesday. If 25 the evidence were to come forward would that refresh your
2091 memory at all? 2 A: Yeah, possibly, because this -- it 3 happened ten (10) years ago, like I said. 4 Q: All right, but today you'd have -- do 5 you have any recollection of that? 6 A: No, not to my knowledge. I don't -- 7 like, if this would have been taken care of in '96, it 8 would totally different. I wouldn't have to sit here and 9 go through all this trouble. 10 Q: I appreciate that and it's a long 11 time in coming, so we appreciate you just, you know, 12 making your best efforts to remember what you can today. 13 Now, were there any collections of -- of 14 clubs or sticks or rocks in the Park that day by the 15 occupants? 16 A: Not no collection. 17 Q: All right. Well, were people 18 gathering them at all? 19 A: I don't know if they were gathering 20 them. 21 Q: Did you? 22 A: I never gathered no clubs for 23 anybody. 24 Q: Okay, did you have any for yourself? 25 A: I might have had one (1).
2101 Q: Can you please describe what you had? 2 A: A piece of firewood. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. How big was it? 4 A: About that big. 5 Q: About two (2) feet long? 6 A: No, a foot. 7 Q: A foot? And how -- how big in 8 diameter? 9 A: A couple of inches. 10 Q: Okay. And why did you have a -- a 11 wooden club? 12 A: Police officer threatened my cousin, 13 his life and I knew they were going to do something, so 14 I'm not going to stand there and let nobody beat me up. 15 Q: All right. Did you see others with 16 sticks or clubs in their hands on Tuesday? 17 A: Tuesday? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: I don't know. 20 Q: Okay. Where did you sleep that 21 night? 22 A: I have no idea where I slept that 23 night, probably in the barracks. 24 Q: All right. And do you know 25 approximately what time you returned to the barracks?
2111 A: No, I have no idea. 2 Q: Commissioner, I wonder if we could 3 take the afternoon break. I'm going to proceed to 4 September the 6th, so perhaps we can start that fresh? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. We're 6 going to take a fifteen (15) minute break now, Mr. 7 George. 8 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 9 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minute. 10 11 --- Upon recessing at 3:19 p.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 3:36 p.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 15 Inquiry is now resumed. Please be seated. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Thank you. I'd like to move now to 19 Wednesday, September the 6th, 1995. Did you return to 20 the Park that day? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Do you know approximately what time 23 of the day you returned? 24 A: I have no idea. 25 Q: All right. Were you present at the
2121 time that certain picnic tables were removed from the 2 sandy parking lot? 3 A: I might have been. I'm pretty sure I 4 was, I'm not too sure, though. 5 Q: Do you have recollection of police 6 cars coming in and pulling out all of the picnic tables? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. When you returned to the 9 Park, did you enter again through the Matheson Drive 10 gate? 11 A: I'm not too sure. I could have came 12 through the other gate. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I have no idea. 15 Q: But you took an internal route from 16 the Army camp to the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Were there still police officers 19 around the Park? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I'm not too sure. I'm pretty sure 24 there was, on the road block by Matheson Drive and Army 25 Camp Road.
2131 Q: All right. Did you have any direct 2 conversations with any of the police officers that day? 3 A: I don't remember having any 4 conversation with them. 5 Q: Did you witness any -- any 6 helicopters that day? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. Were they the same as the 9 ones you saw the day before? 10 A: I believe they were. 11 Q: And did you see that same boat out on 12 the lake that day? 13 A: I don't know. I don't even know if 14 it was that day. It could have been day -- when I seen 15 the boat, I don't know if it was the Tuesday or the 16 Wednesday. It was probably Wednesday. I'm not too sure, 17 though. 18 Q: All right. Now were you part of any 19 -- did you participate in any measures to secure the Park 20 on Wednesday? 21 A: I haven't -- I don't even think we 22 secured the Park. It was just we were in one (1) area 23 mostly. 24 Q: Well, did you -- we've heard evidence 25 that there were some check posts set up by the group
2141 occupants, you know, where people would -- would man them 2 and -- and have a lookout. Were you aware of that? 3 A: The only one I was aware of was just 4 the one (1) on the other side of the area where we were 5 at, and the main gate going into the Park. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Nothing -- I don't know, there could 8 have been other ones. I wasn't there. 9 Q: Okay. Do you know whether any trees 10 were cut down along Matheson Drive, either on the Tuesday 11 or Wednesday? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. Do you know whether any 14 picnic tables were put out there on Matheson Drive to 15 prevent people from coming into the Park area? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Were there bonfires going that day in 18 the Park? 19 A: Yeah, I believe there was, yeah. 20 Q: Do you know approximately how many 21 people were in the Park on Wednesday? 22 A: No. Not approximately. 23 Q: Were there -- were there children 24 there? 25 A: I think there was, yeah.
2151 Q: Were there women there? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Were there persons from other First 4 Nations at the Park on Wednesday? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Can you tell me what other First 7 Nations were represented at the Park, or at least from 8 whom there were people? 9 A: Just Oneida. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. How about Walpole Island? 11 A: Oh yeah, and Walpole, yeah. 12 Q: And the Chippewas of the Thames? 13 A: Not that I know of. 14 Q: All right. Do you know who from 15 Oneida was at the Park? 16 A: Buck Doxtator, Gabe Doxtator, Al 17 George and I don't know the other guy's name. 18 Q: Okay. Did you know of a Chuck 19 George? 20 A: Yeah, yeah. I didn't know he was 21 there though. Like I didn't know him at the time. 22 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And who from 23 Walpole Island did you know who was there? 24 A: Robert Isaac. 25 Q: Okay. Did you know the Jewel
2161 brothers? 2 A: Yeah, yeah. 3 Q: Do you know where they were from? 4 A: I didn't know where they're from, no, 5 not at the time. 6 Q: Okay. Do you know why the Jewel 7 brothers were at the Park? 8 A: I have no idea, no. 9 Q: Okay. Do you know why the people 10 from Oneida were at the Park? 11 A: For support. 12 Q: All right. Now, we heard evidence 13 from Marlin Simon that on Wednesday, he filled up a 14 number of gas tanks with gasoline from the maintenance 15 building gas pump. Were you aware of that? 16 A: I have no idea. And if he did I -- 17 that was him, I don't know. 18 Q: Okay. Did you see any gas tanks, 19 filled gas tanks in the Park that day? 20 A: Not -- probably but I don't know. 21 Q: All right. Now, did you witness any 22 encounters, if you will, between Gerald George and 23 Stewart George on Wednesday? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Can you tell me where you were or how
2171 far away you were from them when -- when the incident 2 occurred? 3 A: A few feet. 4 Q: All right. And describe for me what 5 happened? 6 A: Words were exchanged and I don't know 7 exactly what kind of words were exchanged. I don't know 8 what Stewart George done, slapped or punched Booper and 9 that's it. 10 Q: All right. And Booper is another 11 name for Gerald George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now was Gerald George inside a 14 vehicle at the time? 15 A: Yes, I believe he was. 16 Q: All right. And did you see Stewart 17 George throw a punch at Gerald George? 18 A: Never seen. 19 Q: You didn't see it? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And when you say words were 22 exchanged, was it a -- how would you describe the nature 23 of the -- the encounter? 24 A: I have no idea the nature of the 25 encounter.
2181 Q: All right. Was there anyone else 2 there witnessing this event with you? 3 A: Yes, there was. 4 Q: Can you tell me who? 5 A: Dale Plain George and I believe 6 Nicholas Cottrelle. 7 Q: All right. Now after this incident, 8 did Gerald George leave in his car? 9 A: Yes, he did. 10 Q: And do you recall what kind of car it 11 was? 12 A: No, I don't. 13 Q: Did anyone throw rocks at the car as 14 it left? 15 A: I don't think so. I think a piece of 16 wood or something like that. 17 Q: So something -- an object was thrown 18 at the car? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. Do you know whether it 21 hit it? 22 A: I believe, yeah. 23 Q: Okay. Now during the course of the 24 Park occupation on Wednesday -- sorry, Monday, Tuesday 25 and Wednesday, did you see anyone in the Park consuming
2191 alcohol? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you see anyone suffering from the 4 effects of alcohol intoxication at any time over the 5 course of those three (3) days? 6 A: Not that I can tell. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Not that I knew anyway. 9 Q: Was there any direction given in 10 relation to whether or not there should be alcohol 11 brought into the Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what direction was given to you? 14 A: That there was none to be in the 15 Park. 16 Q: Who gave that direction? 17 A: I have no idea. I believe it was 18 Glenn George, I'm not too sure. 19 Q: All right. Was Glenn George someone 20 who was giving directions at this time? 21 A: Yes, he's the headman. 22 Q: He's the headman. What do you mean 23 by that? 24 A: He's like a chief pretty much. 25 Q: Okay. For the Stoney Point people?
2201 A: Yes. 2 Q: Can you tell me how it was he became 3 headman? 4 A: I have no idea. 5 Q: Did -- I'm sorry. 6 A: He was given that position by a man 7 who went to a ceremony and he appointed him or something. 8 I don't know. 9 Q: Did you recognize him as a headman? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: Okay. And did he tell you why it was 12 there should be no alcohol? 13 A: So he could have a clear head, 14 straight thinking. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. Did you see anyone with 16 guns in the Park that day? 17 A: No. 18 Q: To your knowledge, were there guns of 19 any type in the Park that day? 20 A: Not to my knowledge. 21 Q: To your knowledge, were there any 22 guns at the Army Camp on that day? 23 A: There was probably guns in the Army 24 Camp. 25 Q: Okay. And why is it that you say
2211 that? 2 A: There was hunting rifles, people 3 hunt. It's just the nature of things. 4 Q: All right. Did you see hunting 5 rifles? 6 A: Not that day, no. 7 Q: But you had seen them at the Army 8 Camp before? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. Was there any discussion 11 or direction given with respect to having guns in the 12 Park? 13 A: No guns were allowed to be in the 14 Park. It was, what you call, non-armed protest or 15 whatever. 16 Q: And who came to that decision? 17 A: I believe it was a group decision 18 because of what happened in Oka. 19 Q: Because of what happened at Oka? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Can you just elaborate please? 22 A: They don't want to have no standoff, 23 don't want to shoot nobody. That's the bottom line. 24 Q: At some point did you see Cecil 25 Bernard George enter the Park?
2221 A: Not enter the Park. Maybe on foot, 2 not in a vehicle. 3 Q: All right. Did you see him arrive in 4 or around the Park at some point? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when did you first see him around 7 the Park? 8 A: I don't know the exact time. It was 9 during the day. 10 Q: All right. Was it after lunch 11 likely? 12 A: Yeah I'm pretty sure it was. 13 Q: Was it before dinner? 14 A: It could have been. It could have 15 been around dinner time, I don't know. 16 Q: Okay. And was that the first time 17 that you had seen Cecil Bernard George in or around the 18 Park since its occupation? 19 A: I have no idea, it could have been. 20 Q: Okay. I just wanted to know whether 21 it's the first time you saw him. 22 A: I have no idea. Yeah, I guess so. 23 Q: Did you overhear -- you said to us 24 earlier that -- that there was some talk about guns 25 involving Cecil Bernard George? Can you tell me about
2231 that conversation? 2 A: He just mentioned that he had some 3 guns that he could bring for the people if they wanted 4 and he was told not -- there was no guns to be -- allowed 5 in the Park. 6 Q: Do you know where this conversation 7 took place? 8 A: In the sandy parking lot or in the 9 area around there. 10 Q: All right. And were you present at 11 this conversation? 12 A: I think I was standing there, yes. 13 Q: And can you tell me who told Mr. 14 George that they -- that they didn't want guns? 15 A: I have no idea who it was. 16 Q: Can you tell me who else was in -- 17 involved in this conversation? Who was around? 18 A: Probably Glenn George and a few 19 others. I have no idea. 20 Q: All right. To your knowledge did 21 Cecil Bernard George respect those wishes or did he bring 22 guns? 23 A: I have no idea. That's a question 24 you'd have to ask him. 25 Q: All right. Did you ever see him with
2241 guns that night? 2 A: No. Not me. I never -- never seen 3 him with any guns. 4 Q: Did -- do you know -- did he bring 5 his vehicle into the Park that day? 6 A: I have no idea if he brought it into 7 the Park. I think, yeah, he did, I'm pretty sure. 8 Q: And did you have occasion to look in 9 his vehicle at all? 10 A: No. I don't do that. 11 Q: Okay. Did Cecil Bernard George bring 12 anything into the Park with him when he -- when you saw 13 him? 14 A: Radio I think. Some kind of radio. 15 Q: A radio scanner? 16 A: Yeah, it could have been a scanner, 17 CB something like that or -- 18 Q: Okay. Did he bring any walkie 19 talkies to your knowledge? 20 A: He could have I think. Yeah, he 21 might have brought walkie talkies, a set or two (2). 22 Q: All right. That night, Wednesday, 23 September the 6th, were there other scanners or walkie or 24 talkies in the Park that you're aware of? 25 A: Not that I'm aware of, no.
2251 Q: Did you overhear any conversations on 2 the scanner that Cecil Bernard George brought? 3 A: I might have heard something. I 4 can't remember what it was though. 5 Q: All right. At some point in time 6 during the evening, do you see a number of police 7 officers approaching the Park? 8 A: Like time frame? I don't -- 9 Q: In the -- well -- 10 A: 12:00 at night? 11 Q: In the evening? 12 A: No, not that I can recall. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Not a number of police officers 15 anyway. 16 Q: Okay. We've heard evidence that 17 there was a confrontation involving police officers and a 18 number of Park occupants that took place in the sandy 19 parking lot. Were you present at that confrontation? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: What confrontation is that? Where? 24 What happens? 25 Q: Were there more than one (1)
2261 confrontation that night involving the police? 2 A: I don't know. Is that when they come 3 up in riot gear or? 4 Q: That's what I'm thinking of. 5 A: Yeah, well, yeah, I was present, yes. 6 Q: Okay. And approximately what time of 7 night that did occur? 8 A: I don't know. After 12:00. I can't 9 remember. It was late, anyway. 10 Q: You're suggesting after midnight? 11 A: Yeah, something like that. I don't 12 know. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Before midnight. It was late. 15 Q: All right. And where were you when 16 you first see the police in riot gear coming towards the 17 Park? 18 A: I was standing at the gate beside the 19 turnstile. 20 Q: Right. Now there's a map behind you, 21 it's a map of the intersection of Army Camp Road and East 22 Parkway Drive and it shows the sandy parking lot area, 23 and you can see it shows the turnstile. 24 I wonder if you would just put in an X 25 with a 1 showing where -- where you were approximately
2271 when you first see the police marching down the road. 2 A: With the marker? 3 Q: Please. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And can we please mark this map as 8 the next exhibit? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-98 Your Honour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-98, thank 11 you. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT P-98: Stan Thompson drawing, Sept 20/95 14 marked by witness Mr. Wesley George. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: All right. Did you have any warning 18 in advance or any notice in advance that the police were 19 marching towards the Park before you saw them? 20 A: Not before I saw them. You could 21 hear them though. 22 Q: Okay. So your first notice of the 23 police marching was hearing them march? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right. And can you tell me what
2281 the lighting conditions were at that time, whether there 2 were any lights around that area? 3 A: A spotlight, car lights, that's it 4 that I can remember. 5 Q: All right. And the spotlight, do you 6 know, was that coming from inside the Park? 7 A: Yeah, that's the spotlight we had on 8 them. 9 Q: On the what? 10 A: On the officers walking down the 11 road. 12 Q: Oh, okay. Were you actually 13 operating a spotlight? 14 A: No, I wasn't operating no spotlight. 15 Q: Okay. Do you know who was? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: Was the spotlight -- how was it 18 positioned? Was it on a car or on a podium or being 19 held? 20 A: I have no idea. It was probably 21 being held. 22 Q: Okay. You just know that there was a 23 spotlight? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And was it pointing westerly along
2291 the East Parkway Drive? 2 A: It was pointed straight at the police 3 officers, that's all I know. It could have been. 4 Q: Okay. Now, were there any bonfires 5 going on at this time in that area? 6 A: Yeah, I believe there was, yes. 7 Q: Okay, do you remember where they 8 were? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Can you tell me? 11 A: They're just a little bit to the side 12 of where I was. 13 Q: Okay. And inside the Park? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Was there any -- were the -- 16 were there any lights on in or around the Park store? 17 A: Yeah, I think there was lights on in 18 the Park store. I'm not too sure -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: There was a couple of lights on the 21 one (1) side of it. 22 Q: Okay. Was there any other source of 23 lighting aside from the headlights, the spotlight, the 24 store lights, and the bonfire? 25 A: I'm not too sure, not that I noticed
2301 at the time anyway. 2 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And when you saw 3 the police -- when you first saw the police approaching, 4 can you describe to me what -- what they were wearing and 5 what, if anything, they were holding? 6 A: They were wearing bullet-proof vests, 7 helmets, they had batons in their hands, shields and 8 cargo-style pants. 9 Q: Cargo-style? 10 A: Cargo-style, like, pockets on the 11 sides, you know. 12 Q: Oh, okay. Pants? Okay. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Yes, okay. All right. And what 15 formation did they adopt as they were walking down or 16 marching down the road? 17 A: Side by side, shoulder to shoulder, 18 whatever. 19 Q: Okay. And could you see how many 20 rows were marching? 21 A: A few -- a few rows. 22 Q: And when they marched shoulder-to- 23 shoulder, did they take up -- how much of the street did 24 they take up? 25 A: All the way across the road, I'm
2311 pretty sure. 2 Q: All right. And did you notice 3 whether there were any lights being shone from the police 4 side, if you will? 5 A: Not that I noticed, no. 6 Q: Okay. When you saw them approach, 7 what did you do? 8 A: I moved to the side of the tree line, 9 like, more towards the beach. 10 Q: Okay. And where -- where, as in 11 relation to the fence, did you go? 12 A: Towards the beach, I guess, I would 13 say. 14 Q: Okay. And where -- what side of the 15 poplar tree line were you on? 16 A: I was on the Park side. 17 Q: Okay, so the trees were in front of 18 you, between you and the police? 19 A: Yeah, the trees were in between, but 20 they weren't in front of me. 21 Q: Okay. All right. So you weren't 22 right behind a tree? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: But you were behind the tree line? 25 A: Yeah.
2321 Q: Fair enough. Okay. And can you tell 2 me what happened next? In other words, the police are 3 marching down the road, you're -- you're behind the tree 4 line, what's the next event that happens? 5 A: I believe that's when they start 6 using their scare tactics by counting and, like, running 7 -- march-type thing at the fence line -- 8 Q: All right. 9 A: -- towards us. And that's it. 10 Q: Okay. When they approach the sandy 11 parking lot the first time, do they stop or do they 12 immediately come towards the fence? 13 A: I -- I can't even remember. I'm 14 pretty sure they'd formed a line across the -- like, 15 along the -- not the -- across the opening, but it was 16 more like along with the fence. Like, the fence line 17 would be like this and the cops would be over there 18 towards the opening of the roadway. 19 Q: Okay. Maybe you can just turn around 20 and draw a line signifying where the police went to on 21 their first approach? 22 A: The map's kind of different, but -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- in around this area between -- 25 Q: All right. So you've drawn a -- a
2331 rectangular shape. Maybe you just put number 2 beside 2 that and you have indicated that there was a -- a line 3 that was formed that was more or less a continuation of 4 the shoulder on the west side of the sandy road access? 5 A: That's what I think where they went, 6 but it was like a couple of rows of them, so the map 7 ain't too accurate -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- right? So it's just pretty much a 10 guess, because it's inaccurate. 11 Q: Because you think the map's 12 inaccurate? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: All right. But, in any event, they 15 were in the sandy parking lot when they stopped? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Not up to the fence yet? And -- and 18 they started counting? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Did you hear a -- a commanding 21 officer -- a police officer -- shout something over to 22 the occupants at that time? 23 A: Not -- no. There was -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I couldn't even think at the time.
2341 Q: All right. And after they finished 2 counting, what did the police do? 3 A: They were running while counting, 4 banging their shields. 5 Q: Okay. Running towards where? 6 A: The fence. 7 Q: And did they come right up to the 8 fence? 9 A: Pretty close to the fence. 10 Q: All right. And then are you still 11 behind the tree line at this point? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay, and what happened next? 14 A: I -- I don't know, I -- I believe 15 that's when the dog -- Stewart's dog -- went out there. 16 Q: Okay. And did you -- did you see or 17 hear that? 18 A: Not that I can remember for sure, but 19 I know the dog went out there and -- and I can't remember 20 hearing anything. 21 Q: Okay. And after dog went out into 22 the intersection or into the sandy parking lot area, did 23 any of the occupants follow? 24 A: Not right after, but a little bit 25 after, yeah.
2351 Q: Okay. And did you go into the 2 parking lot at this point? 3 A: No, not -- 4 Q: All right. 5 A: -- right at that point, no. 6 Q: Okay. And was there something of a - 7 - then, an altercation between some of the Park Occupants 8 and the police officers at that point? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And what happens next? 11 A: There was just an altercation. I 12 don't know exactly. I couldn't see from where I was at, 13 like, what was exactly happening. 14 Q: Okay, because you're behind the tree 15 line at this point? 16 A: Yeah, well, quite aways away too, off 17 to the side, like, I wasn't directly in front of them. 18 Q: Right. You're towards the lake? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And are the spotlights -- or is the 21 spotlight still on, as -- to your knowledge at this 22 point? 23 A: Yes, yeah. 24 Q: Okay. But the spotlight, was it 25 still down at the turnstile area?
2361 A: Yeah, yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And at some point, do you go 3 into the -- over the fence and into the sandy parking 4 lot? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And why did you do that? 7 A: I went out just to keep an eye on my 8 father. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Try to stay as close to him as 11 possible. I didn't want nothing to happen to him. 12 Q: Did you have anything in your hands 13 when you went out into the parking lot area? 14 A: I think so, yeah. 15 Q: Do you recall what you had? 16 A: It could have been firewood or rocks. 17 I'm not too sure. 18 Q: All right. Now did you witness any 19 incident involving an occupant being surrounded by 20 police? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what did you observe? 23 A: Well, I didn't observe nothing. I 24 could hear. 25 Q: Okay. Were you behind the tree line
2371 at this point? 2 A: I might have -- yeah, I'm pretty sure 3 I was. 4 Q: What did you hear? 5 A: Alls I could hear was just yelling 6 and like someone being kicked or hit with a baton, I 7 don't know. Like thud sound anyway, when someone gets 8 hit. 9 Q: All right. Did you subsequently 10 discover who it was who was being hit? 11 A: I never discovered but I heard 12 someone say who it was. 13 Q: Okay, when did you hear that? 14 A: Couple -- like -- not too long, not 15 even a minute after we came back in, everybody -- they 16 checked to see who was all back and then they knew who it 17 was out there. 18 Q: All right. And what did you learn, 19 then, at that time? 20 A: That it was Cecil Bernard George. 21 Q: All right. Did you see a bus exit 22 the Park? 23 A: Yes. Yes, I did. 24 Q: All right. And were you inside or 25 outside of the Park when the bus exited, first left?
2381 A: I believe I was outside of the Park. 2 Q: All right. So this is after you went 3 over the fence? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And did you observe the 6 progress of the bus? 7 A: Yeah, yes. 8 Q: Do you recall what side of the bus -- 9 let me ask you this: Did the bus pass you at any time? 10 A: I don't think so. Like not really 11 pass me, 'cause it was only at walking speed. 12 Q: All right. Well, were you beside the 13 bus at some point? 14 A: Yeah, I was more or less beside it, 15 walked out with it, like, I was on the right-hand side of 16 the bus. 17 Q: Okay. Would that be the passenger 18 side? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And were you between the bus and the 21 lake, then? 22 A: Yes, the bus and the bushes, yes. 23 Q: Okay, the bus and the bushes on -- 24 can you just show me on the map how far did you go out 25 with the bus?
2391 A: Not with the bus more or less, like 2 in front, kitty corner to the bus. 3 Q: Okay. Well tell me where you were 4 and where the bus was in relation to you. 5 A: Draw? 6 Q: Sure, that'd be great. 7 A: The bus and where I was? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: How far it came out and how far I 10 was? 11 Q: You have to take the microphone there 12 with you. 13 A: So how far? 14 Q: That's fine. 15 A: So you want me to draw the bus and 16 where I went to? 17 Q: Yeah, draw the bus at the furthest 18 point that you saw it advance. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Right, you've drawn a -- 23 A: Somewhere around there. 24 Q: -- square, and put the number -- are 25 we up to 4 or 3?
2401 THE REGISTRAR: Number 3. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: Number 3 there, okay? And where were 5 you when the bus was there? 6 A: I don't know, somewhere around here. 7 Q: And put Number 4 there with the "X". 8 And you're pointing or your marking at the -- the 9 driveway off of East Parkway Drive? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And what was the front of 12 the bus -- where was the front of the bus on that 13 drawing? 14 Okay, so, in other words, it was pointing 15 facing westward along East Parkway Drive? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And did you also see a 18 car exit the Park and into the sandy parking lot area? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And can you tell me, did 21 you observe where -- how far the car travelled? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Can you show me on the map where that 24 was? 25 A: (Indicating).
2411 Q: All right, you've drawn a box and can 2 you put 5 beside the box, please. And that's basically 3 adjacent to where you showed yourself? 4 A: That's close. Like I said, the map's 5 inaccurate and that's as close as I can get it. It might 6 have went a little bit further. 7 Q: Okay, but around the driveway? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. All right. Now, did you see 10 the bus strike or make contact with any police officers 11 as it travelled out into East Parkway Drive? 12 A: No. 13 Q: How about the car? 14 A: Not strike. 15 Q: Well, did -- did the car come into 16 contact with a police officer? 17 A: Yes, it did. 18 Q: Okay. And what was the police 19 officer doing at the time that he was hit by the car? 20 A: Pointing his weapon at the car. 21 Q: All right. And did you hear any 22 gunshots? 23 A: When the officer was being pushed 24 down by the car. 25 Q: Okay. And do you know who was
2421 discharging those gunshots? 2 A: I don't -- I don't know who. 3 Q: All right. Can you describe the 4 number of shots that you heard fired? 5 A: I have no idea how much exact -- 6 three (3), four (4), maybe a little bit more. 7 Q: Okay. And were there any further 8 shots later on? 9 A: At the car? 10 Q: No, just generally that you heard? 11 A: Yeah. Yes, there was. 12 Q: Okay. The three (3) or four (4) 13 shots that you've described, was that aimed at the car, 14 to the best of your knowledge? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And what did you do when you 17 heard the gunshots at the car? 18 A: Well, I was beside the one (1) side 19 of the car at the corner and then I went to the other 20 side of the bus, to the driver's side, like, the front of 21 the bus. 22 Q: Okay. And were there any police 23 officers around the bus when you approached it? 24 A: Yeah, I believe there was police 25 officers on both sides.
2431 Q: Okay. And what were they doing, if 2 anything? 3 A: I don't -- I don't know what they 4 were doing; they were standing there. 5 Q: All right. And what did you do next? 6 A: I can't really remember what I was 7 doing at that time. I'm pretty sure that's when the cops 8 were running in the bushes and I'm pretty sure that's 9 when they start backing the -- the vehicles up, because 10 they were only supposed to go down the road a certain 11 amount -- feet or -- like, they weren't supposed to go 12 too far down the road, anyway. 13 Q: How do you know that? 14 A: Because that's what -- that's what 15 one (1) -- they told whoever to get in the bus and drive 16 it out there. They said not to go too far down the road. 17 Q: Did you -- did you hear that? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: When was that statement made? 20 A: Whenever they got the bus out there. 21 Q: Okay. All right. And so, did the -- 22 did the vehicles -- the car and the bus -- in fact, go 23 into reverse? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did they -- did you see it get --
2441 them get back into the Park? 2 A: Yes, yeah. 3 Q: All right. And what did you do while 4 the vehicles were reversing into the Park? 5 A: I was on the one (1) side of the 6 bus -- 7 Q: The -- 8 A: -- while it was reversing -- driver's 9 side. 10 Q: Okay, and so did you just walk along 11 it? 12 A: I was kind -- like, a slow jog, like, 13 type of run, not really running, like. 14 Q: But faster than walking? 15 A: Yeah, a little faster than walking. 16 Q: Okay. And so you were heading back 17 to the Park, too? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And did you witness 20 anything of note as you were going back into the Park? 21 A: Well, I never followed the bus all 22 the way back. Like, it passed me and I was sort of like 23 standing there for at least getting into the sandy area. 24 Q: Okay. All right. And why were you 25 just standing there?
2451 A: Well, I don't know. I was waiting 2 for it to get back and there were still people out there. 3 Q: Okay. And what did you do next? 4 A: I don't know. I was pretty sure I 5 just stood there for, like, a while. I can't remember 6 how long. 7 Q: All right. And as you're standing 8 there, do you see any more police officers? 9 A: No. That's when everybody was coming 10 in. 11 Q: Everybody coming into where? 12 A: Well, all the police officers were 13 pretty much gone and everybody was coming back in. And 14 then when we were running in, Dudley was like a couple of 15 feet behind me and then he was shot. 16 Q: Okay. So I just want to make sure we 17 have the time line right. The bus and the car reversed 18 towards the Park. You're beside the bus for a while? 19 A: Yeah. Just like from there to around 20 here. 21 Q: Okay. From -- from the tarmac or 22 asphalt until the bus gets to the sandy parking lot area? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: You then stopped for a little bit. 25 And to the best of your knowledge, the police are -- are
2461 gone? 2 A: Yeah. Well it happened kind of fast. 3 Like words are slow, actions are faster. 4 Q: Okay. Okay. And you then walked 5 back towards the Park, is that right? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And at what point do you see Dudley 8 George? 9 A: The bus was already back in this -- 10 behind the fence or around the fence area. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: And I don't know, I just ran back 13 with the bus, the bus got in and I was around in, like, 14 this area here and then we started coming back in. There 15 was me and Dudley was a little bit behind me and we go 16 over to about this area. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: I was around here and Dudley was 19 somewhere around here. 20 Q: Okay. Can -- 21 A: And that's -- that's when I noticed 22 Dudley was shot. 23 Q: All right. Can you just with your 24 marker, please, put an X where you were when you first 25 saw Dudley George shot and will you also put an X where
2471 Dudley George was in relation to you. 2 Okay and with -- are we up to 6? 3 THE REGISTRAR: Number 6 is your next 4 number. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: Number 6. Would you use number 6 to 8 mark where you were. And number 7 to mark where Dudley 9 George was. Okay. 10 A: And that's again, I could have been 11 within a few feet of Dudley, I don't know. Because the 12 map's, like, irrelevant to me. It's not correct. 13 Q: Well it's just giving us a general 14 sense of your location. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And it's fair to say that you were 17 closer to the Park than he was? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And that you were a few feet away 20 from him when you first saw him? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And when you -- what -- what 23 made you first take note of him? 24 A: I just happened to look back. 25 Q: What did -- and what did you observe
2481 about him? 2 A: We were sort of like at a little bit 3 walk, faster than walking speed, so, like a speed walking 4 type thing and I don't know, I just happened to look back 5 and that's -- I could tell he -- he wasn't moving as fast 6 as when we were walking. So, he was just sort of like 7 standing there. 8 Q: What was he doing with his arms? 9 A: I can't remember that. I think they 10 were just at his side. 11 Q: All right. Did you see him holding 12 any object in his arms? 13 A: I can't remember. 14 Q: Did you see any object or elongated 15 object around him at that time on the ground? 16 A: No, I can't -- I don't recall at the 17 time, no. 18 Q: Okay. Did you see any guns on the 19 ground around him? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. And when you saw him, 22 what did you do? 23 A: I just stood there for, like, it 24 seemed like a second or two, like, I glanced at him, 25 that's when I noticed he was shot. Like, you could see
2491 the blood on the front of his chest through his shirt. 2 Q: Okay. So was he facing you when you 3 saw him, when you turned back and saw him? 4 A: Not facing me. But he was facing in 5 the direction of me. 6 Q: Okay. Towards the Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And did -- was he able to 9 take any steps after you saw him? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. What happened to him? 12 A: He fell to his knees. 13 Q: All right. And then did anybody 14 approach him? 15 A: Yeah. I believe my father approached 16 him and a couple of other people. I can't recall who it 17 was. 18 Q: Okay. And did you -- did you 19 approach him? 20 A: No, I never. 21 Q: Okay. And did you observe what -- 22 what your father and others did with Dudley George? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Can you tell me? 25 A: Carried him to the "OPP WHO?" car.
2501 Q: Okay. Where was the "OPP WHO?" car 2 when he was transported into it? 3 A: It was inside the gate. 4 Q: Okay. And do you know whose car that 5 was? 6 A: Robert Isaacs. 7 Q: Okay. Do you know who drove the car? 8 A: Anybody drove it. 9 Q: Anybody? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: So you don't know who it was? 12 A: Well, like, anybody could drive the 13 car, whoever -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: -- whoever had the keys. 16 Q: Okay. All right, and did the car take 17 Dudley George out of the Park then? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And is that the last time 20 you saw him? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Now did you stay in the 23 Park after that? 24 A: For a little while. 25 Q: Were you at the Park -- well, at some
2511 point did you find out that Dudley George had died? 2 A: The next morning. 3 Q: Okay. Were you in the Park when the 4 store burned down that night? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And were -- did you participate in 7 burning down that store? 8 A: No, I didn't. 9 Q: Do you know why the store was burned 10 down? 11 A: Because they shot Dudley. 12 Q: Were any other buildings burnt down in 13 the store -- in the Park that night, to your knowledge? 14 A: The gate building for the Park. I 15 believe it was burned down I think. 16 Q: Okay. Just -- just to go back to the 17 confrontation for a moment, Mr. George, do you know -- did 18 you hit any police officers with either stones or pieces 19 of wood or rocks? 20 A: Not that I seen. I could have hit 21 them, though. 22 Q: Okay. Were you throwing some? 23 A: Yes, I was. 24 Q: And were you struck in any way by a 25 police officer?
2521 A: No, I wasn't. 2 Q: Did you receive any injuries yourself? 3 A: No, I did not. 4 Q: Okay. Where did you go after the 5 store was burned down? 6 A: Went up to the main gate. 7 Q: Up to the Army camp there? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: The barracks? And when you arrived 10 was Dudley George still there? 11 A: I can't recall. I don't think he was. 12 He might have been. I'm not too sure. 13 Q: Okay. Did you see Nick Cottrelle up 14 there when you got there? 15 A: I -- I think he was there. I'm not 16 too sure. I'm pretty sure he was there, though. 17 Q: Pretty sure he wasn't? 18 A: He was. 19 Q: He was? 20 A: I'm pretty sure he was, yes. 21 Q: Did you see him transported away by 22 ambulance? 23 A: Yeah, I think -- yeah, it was -- I'm 24 pretty sure. 25 Q: All right. And did you see any
2531 exchanges between his mother and aunt and the police 2 officers out there on Highway 21 where the ambulance was? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. What building did you go to 5 when you returned to the Army camp? 6 A: I have no idea. I -- I didn't stay 7 there, I went to my grandmother's house. 8 Q: Okay. And how did you get to your 9 grandmother's house? 10 A: Bonnie Bressette. 11 Q: Okay. And where's your grandmother's 12 house? 13 A: The Kettle Point reserve. 14 Q: Okay. Did other people go with you 15 and Bonnie Bressette to the Kettle Point reserve? 16 A: Yeah, I'm pretty sure there was other 17 people there, children. 18 Q: Okay. And whose idea was it that you 19 leave with Bonnie Bressette? 20 A: My father's. 21 Q: Did he tell you why he wanted you to 22 go with her? 23 A: Yeah, so I'd be safe. 24 Q: Okay. And did you learn about Dudley 25 George then at your grandmother's house the next morning?
2541 A: Yes. 2 Q: Did you return to the Park at any 3 point the next day, September the 7th? 4 A: Not the Park, but I returned to the 5 Camp. 6 Q: Okay. Did you see your father? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And how long did you stay 9 at the Army Camp? 10 A: For the next few weeks. 11 Q: And at any point in time over the 12 following few weeks, did you return to the Park? 13 A: Yeah, I went back to the Park, yes. 14 Q: Okay. And did you find any -- any 15 evidence of the confrontation when you were -- went back 16 down to -- around the Park? 17 A: I can't remember. I'm pretty sure it 18 was the night that it happened, that was the only time I 19 found evidence there. 20 Q: Okay, so September the 6th, or -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- after the shooting? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And what did -- 25 A: I don't know, it could have been the
2551 next day, I'm not too sure. Like I said, it happened ten 2 (10) years ago. 3 Q: Okay. When you say, "the next day," 4 do you mean after midnight? 5 A: No, like, it was after midnight when 6 it happened or -- or whenever -- when the cops were there, 7 but I'm talking -- yes, I was there when we found shell 8 casings. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: But I don't know the exact time or 11 date. 12 Q: Fair enough. Did you find any shell 13 casing? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: What did you find? 16 A: Just 9 millimetres. 17 Q: Okay. How many? 18 A: A couple, a few. 19 Q: And what did you do with them? 20 A: I gave them to whoever -- somebody was 21 collecting them. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: So -- because they didn't want the 24 cops to come back and gather them up or something. I 25 don't even know what happened to them.
2561 Q: All right. Can you -- using the -- 2 the map there, can you tell me where -- well, firstly, did 3 you find the bullet casings inside or outside of the Park? 4 A: Outside. 5 Q: All right. Can you show me on the map 6 behind you, approximately, the location of the shells that 7 you found? 8 A: Right in there. 9 Q: Okay, and can you mark that with 10 number 8. And you've drawn a circle that, essentially, is 11 between the car and the bus drawn there. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Is that fair? Okay, by the driveway? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Did you return to school 16 that year? 17 A: Yeah, I think I returned in January. 18 Q: January of '96? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And how far did you go in 21 school? 22 A: What, that year? 23 Q: What grade did you achieve, 24 ultimately? 25 A: I don't know, grade 11.
2571 Q: Grade 11? 2 A: Something like that, yeah. 3 Q: Okay. And did you leave school at 4 that point? 5 A: Yeah, I got booted out for going to 6 court for Dave George's trial. Missed too much days of 7 school. 8 Q: Okay. Can you tell me what impact 9 this event had and has had on your life? 10 A: Can't trust the cops no more. Well, 11 maybe some of them, but you never know who was down there, 12 like, it could be any cop. I don't know like. That's 13 just the most impact right there is just the trust -- lost 14 the trust -- someone that's supposed to protect you. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Have you received any counselling in 19 relation to this event? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. Did you attend at the funeral 22 for Dudley George? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: Thank you. Those are all my 25 questions, Commissioner.
2581 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, Mr. Wesley 3 George. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 6 (WITNESS RETIRED) 7 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Now I see that it's very 9 close to 4:30. I wonder, do you want to see where we're 10 at in cross-examination? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Canvass -- 12 we'll see who's going to cross-examine and then we'll 13 break for the day. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you got 16 a list there, Katherine? 17 Does anybody intend to cross-examine this 18 witness? Please stand up, please. Thank you very much. 19 Jonathon George, how long do you expect to 20 be? 21 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: Maybe ten (10) 22 minutes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 24 McAleer...? 25 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Approximately half
2591 an hour. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Half an hour? 3 Mr. McGilp...? 4 MR. IAN MCGILP: Probably forty-five (45) 5 minutes -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Forty-five 7 (45) minutes? 8 MR. IAN MCGILP: Half an hour, 45 minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 We'll start at ten o'clock tomorrow. So we'll adjourn now 11 and reconvene at ten o'clock tomorrow. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 14 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday December the 1st at 15 10:00 a.m. 16 17 --- Upon adjourning at 4:30 p.m. 18 19 Certified Correct, 20 21 22 ________________ 23 Dustin Warnock 24 25