11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 29th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 18 (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) (np) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 ISAAC CHARLES DOXTATOR, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-in-Chief 8 by Ms. Susan Vella 7 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 25 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 29 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 65 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 126 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 129 14 Re-Direct Examination Ms. Susan Vella 131 15 16 GABRIEL JAMES DOXTATOR, Sworn 17 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 134 18 19 Certificate of Transcript 201 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 4 P-93 Stan Thompson Drawing, 190 5 Sept 20/95 6 marked by witness Mr. Gabriel 7 Doxtator on November 29th/2004 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:35 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. Mr. Doxtator, could you please take the 10 stand? 11 12 ISAAC CHARLES DOXTATOR, Resumed: 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 morning, Mr. Doxtator. 16 THE WITNESS: Morning. 17 18 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: Mr. Doxtator, I'm going to ask you to 20 make sure you speak into the microphone today, so we can 21 all hear your answers. 22 Now, at the end of the day on Thursday, 23 you recounted the events as you saw them that transpired 24 the night of September the 6th, 1995. 25 I just have a few follow-up questions in
81 relation to that. When you first saw Dudley George 2 holding his chest, did you see him holding any other -- 3 or any object in his hands? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Can you just speak -- 6 A: No, he wasn't holding anything. 7 Q: All right. Did you see any long or 8 elongated objects around him on the ground as you 9 approached him? 10 A: No. 11 Q: To your knowledge, did Dudley George 12 have a gun in his -- with him the night of September the 13 6th, 1995? 14 A: No. 15 Q: You indicated that there was some 16 lighting, and you've told us what that lighting was, in 17 relation to two (2) spotlights shining from the 18 Aboriginal and from the Park. I think you also indicated 19 that there was some lighting that was generated by the 20 OPP that night. 21 Do you recall what the source of that 22 lighting was? 23 A: I believe we just had spotlights 24 where we were. I don't know what the police had, some 25 kind of spotlight shining back on us.
91 Q: All right. And do you know how many 2 they had shining back at you? 3 A: I thought I could see two (2) lights. 4 Q: And do you know approximately where 5 they were placed? And you can use the -- the 6 intersection map behind you if you wish. 7 A: Could you repeat the question? 8 Q: Do you know approximately where the 9 two (2) or so spotlights from the OPP were placed? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: On East Parkway. 14 Q: On East Parkway Drive on the road 15 itself? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And it were -- they were shining 18 towards the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. You indicated that 21 earlier on, during one of the skirmishes, you hit a 22 police officer over the head with a break -- baseball bat 23 and it broke. Do you recall whether or not the police 24 officer was wearing anything on his head at that time? 25 A: He put his shield up and I hit the
101 shield and it must have hit him. Yeah, he was all -- he 2 had a big helmet on, a shield -- his face. 3 Q: All right. You also indicated that 4 you saw some individuals after the confrontation heading 5 towards Lake Ont -- Lake Huron, excuse me, with some sort 6 of wetsuits on. 7 Did anyone else to your knowledge witness 8 this event? 9 A: I don't -- I don't know. 10 Q: It's not something that you raised 11 with anyone? 12 A: I just figured other people must have 13 seen them because they were pretty visible to me. You 14 know, I seen them. 15 Q: But you didn't talk to anyone else 16 about this? 17 A: There was too much confusion at the 18 time, you know. 19 Q: Right. Did you grant interviews to 20 the Special Investigation Unit in relation to these 21 events? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And do you know whether or not you 24 told them about this particular event? 25 A: I believe I did.
111 Q: Did you have an opportunity to review 2 your statements at the time that they were made? 3 A: Pardon? 4 Q: Did you have an opportunity to review 5 the statements taken by the Special Investigations Unit? 6 Yes, they are in the binder before you. 7 When's the first time you saw the 8 statements? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I read it, I guess, sitting here -- 13 sitting here. 14 Q: Yes, but I'm asking you when is the 15 first time that you were given an opportunity to review 16 the statements that you gave to the SIU. 17 A: I'm not positive. 18 Q: All right. Were you given an 19 opportunity to verify the accuracy of the statement or to 20 advise if there were any errors or omissions in the 21 statement? 22 A: I'm not sure, but I know there was 23 some things that I seen on paper that weren't true, you 24 know, like -- 25 Q: All right. Now, you -- you indicated
121 that you believe you told the SIU about the event of 2 witnessing these -- these -- wetsuit people? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Do you recall whether or 5 not that's in your statement? 6 A: I'd have to check. 7 Q: Would you have a look, please? For 8 the record, the witness is consulting Inquiry Document 9 Number 1004538, which is evidence -- anticipated evidence 10 of Isaac Charles Doxtator. It's located at Tab 1 and 11 it's dated September the 26th, 1997. He will also be 12 reviewing his anticipated evidence taken on October 12th, 13 1995, which is Inquiry Document Number 10011999 located 14 at Tab 2 and I believe that's it. 15 Just take a minute to review those 16 statements, sir, and tell me if you see in them any 17 reference to the -- the wet-men. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Excuse me -- 22 Q: Certainly. 23 A: Number 1, is it? Do you -- 24 Q: Tab 1 and Tab 2. 25 A: Hmm hmm.
131 Q: Those are your two (2) SIU 2 statements. Thank you. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I can't see that. 7 Q: I've also reviewed the statement and 8 I don't any reference made. These are reportedly taped 9 recording transcripts of your statements. 10 Is it possible that you're mistaken in 11 your recollection and that you did not disclose this 12 event to the SIU? 13 A: I know I -- when I was being 14 interviewed, I'm pretty sure I mentioned -- mentioned 15 that I seen these guys. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Right now I just can't see it here. 18 I guess maybe it's not in here. 19 Q: Let me ask you some follow up 20 questions then. Was there a further occasion on which 21 you were inter -- interviewed by the SIU aside from the 22 two (2) occasions that we have transcripts for? 23 A: I believe so. 24 Q: Do you recall when the other date was 25 then that you were interviewed?
141 A: We had to meet with -- with the 2 special investigation in -- in Sarnia now, in a hotel. 3 Q: All right. And do you recall who 4 interviewed you at that time, the names of the officers? 5 Are they the same as in your statement? 6 A: I'm not positive but I think so. 7 Q: All right. Did you have any 8 interviews with the SIU which were not tape-recorded? 9 A: I'm not sure. 10 Q: All right. Okay. Now, just going 11 back to the night of September the 6th then. Did you 12 witness or observe anything else of note that gave you 13 concern over the course of that evening, during the 14 confrontation with the police? 15 A: Pardon? 16 Q: Did you note anything else of concern 17 in the course of your confrontation with the police 18 officers on the night of September the 6th? 19 A: I'm not -- I don't understand the 20 question. 21 Q: Okay. You have told us, to the best 22 of your recollection, what transpired during the 23 confrontation with the police and I'm asking you whether 24 you observed or noticed anything about the police which 25 caused you concern during the course of that
151 confrontation? 2 A: Well, like what I noticed or -- 3 Q: That's right. 4 A: Well, I know I could smell a -- a lot 5 of booze, like -- 6 Q: You smelled alcohol? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: During the course of the 9 confrontation? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do you have any belief with 12 respect to what the source of that alcohol was? 13 A: Probably -- smelled like whiskey -- 14 whiskey or whatever, some kind of alcohol. 15 Q: All right. And where did you smell 16 this alcohol? 17 A: Coming up from the police officers. 18 They were all around and, like, that's all you could 19 smell was booze. 20 Q: And is your -- is it your belief that 21 the police officers had alcohol on their breath when you 22 fought with them? 23 A: You could smell it all around, like 24 when the fighting was going on and the police officers, 25 when they were running, they were -- looked like they
161 were staggering, grabbing on each other, pulling each 2 other down and running away, you know? 3 Q: Well, is it not possible that they 4 were staggering when they were running away because there 5 was a bus and a car that had been driven into the centre 6 of them? 7 A: No. 8 Q: That's not your opinion? Okay. 9 A: The police officers weren't all 10 around the bus, they were everywhere. 11 Q: All right. Now, is it fair to say 12 that you were surrounded not only by police officers 13 during the fight, but also by fellow occupants? 14 A: There was probably less than twenty 15 (20) guys and there was probably about fif -- eighty (80) 16 -- eighty (80) police officers or something. 17 Q: But there were occupants interspersed 18 around you with the police, is that fair? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. And is it not true that 21 the police officers were wearing helmets with visors 22 during the course of this fight? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: So, isn't it fair to say that you 25 can't be certain where the source of alcohol smell was
171 coming from? 2 A: I don't know of any of our -- the 3 guys that were there with -- other than police that were 4 -- didn't see nobody around drinking. 5 Q: Had you seen any consumption of 6 alcohol in the Park at all that day or night? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you witness any or observe any of 9 the occupants with the smell of liquor on their breath 10 that night? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Mr. Doxtator, with all your 13 experience in -- in relation to past aboriginal protests 14 and confrontations involving the police, is it really 15 your opinion that police officers would come in to an 16 exercise such as the one that occurred September the 6th 17 having consumed sufficient alcohol to have it on their 18 breath? 19 A: Could I have the question again? 20 Q: Given your experience in past 21 confrontations with police officers, is it really your 22 opinion that -- that the -- the police would enter into 23 an exercise such as occurred September the 6th, having 24 consumed enough alcohol so that you could detect it on 25 their breath?
181 A: Yeah, I would say so. Could I say 2 something? 3 Q: Certainly. 4 A: Where the police had the command 5 post, there was whiskey bottles and booze bottles laying 6 everywhere. I don't know if -- if you know that. 7 Q: Well, let -- I'll -- I'll follow up 8 on that comment in a second, but let me ask you this 9 first. 10 Did you personally witness any police 11 officers consuming alcohol the night of September the 6th 12 or during the day? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. And you've indicated that 15 -- to me just now that you -- that there were whiskey 16 bottles at the -- the command post? Is this the command 17 post at the parking lot -- the MNR parking lot just off 18 East Parkway Drive? 19 A: It's in the area, but it was in the 20 bush, it wasn't in the parking lot. Their command post 21 was in the bush. 22 Q: Okay. And did you personally find 23 any alcohol bottles? 24 A: I wasn't there, but I seen the 25 evidence.
191 Q: Well -- 2 A: Pictures that were taken there. 3 Q: You saw photographs? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Who took the photographs? 6 A: I don't know. 7 Q: Do you know when they were taken? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: When were they taken? 10 A: After everything happened. 11 Q: All right. So you're saying you saw 12 photographs with some alcohol bottles in the bush. This 13 would be the bush surrounding the area of Army Camp Road 14 and East Parkway Drive? 15 A: Down East Parkway, west of the Park 16 on the east side somewhere back in the bush there -- 17 Q: All right. 18 A: -- that parking lot. 19 Q: All right. And it's fair to say that 20 -- that you are not aware of any forensic testing being 21 done on these bottles to determine who handled them? 22 A: I wasn't part of the crew that went 23 out there with the cameras and took pictures. 24 Q: All right. And it's fair to say that 25 you can't say for certain who handled those alcohol
201 bottles. They could have been there before the 2 confrontation, fair enough? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: Is it fair to say they could have 5 been put there after the confrontation? 6 A: I don't know. 7 Q: All right. Now, later that evening 8 you indicated after the Park store was burned down that 9 you went back to the barracks? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you have occasion to see 12 Bonnie Bressette that night? 13 A: I believe I seen her leaving or 14 coming in or leaving the gate there somewhere. 15 Q: Did you have any interaction with 16 her? 17 A: I believe she was talking to other 18 people at the gate going out. She had kids with her. 19 Q: Okay. Do you know what the purpose 20 of her arriving at the barracks was? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you observe anyone with firearms 23 at the barracks or at the Army camp later that evening? 24 A: No. 25 Q: I wonder if we could please place
211 before the witness Exhibit 42-A which is a photograph. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And this is a photograph that was 6 taken at approximately 2:51 a.m. on September the 6th, 7 1995. Do you recognize the individual in that 8 photograph? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Do you recognize the object in that 11 individual's hands and I don't -- I'm not asking you to 12 speculate. 13 A: Oh, no. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: It's a stick or an arm or something. 16 Q: Sorry? 17 A: I said it looked like a stick. 18 Q: Okay, thank you. Did you go to the 19 command post at any time following the events of 20 September 6th, 1995? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And I was referring to the command 23 post that was at the MNR parking lot with the St. John's 24 Ambulance. Did you go there at all? 25 A: Excuse me, where was that again?
221 Q: At the parking lot just west of the 2 Park, off of East Parkway Drive. It was a parking lot -- 3 A: Oh yeah, yeah. 4 Q: Did you go there? 5 A: At what time? 6 Q: Any time after September the 6th? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you at any time return to the 9 Park area to look for any type of -- of evidence or 10 residue from the -- the activities of September the 6th? 11 A: Yeah, I believe everybody was -- 12 looking around. 13 Q: Did you go? 14 A: I was there. 15 Q: When did you go? 16 A: Different times people were looking 17 in the area. They were looking around for things -- 18 Q: Do you recall whether or not you 19 returned to that area September the 7th? The day 20 following the shooting. 21 A: I believe we were down in the Park. 22 Q: Did you find any -- any evidence or 23 residue of the night before these activities? 24 A: I'm not -- I'm not positive but I 25 ended up with some shells that somebody passed on to me
231 or something. 2 Q: Okay. And are these bullet shells? 3 A: Yeah, they found. 4 Q: Approximately how many were you 5 given? 6 A: Maybe two (2) or three (3), I'm not 7 sure. 8 Q: And what -- what type of bullet were 9 they from? 10 A: I'm pretty sure I had a 223 shell 11 casing and a 40 calibre, and I believe it was a 9 12 millimetre. 13 Q: And what did you do with these bullet 14 casings? 15 A: I gave them over to the Special 16 Investigation Unit. 17 Q: And do you recall when you turned 18 those over? 19 A: Well, when anything was found I 20 believe it was put into -- somebody was holding them, 21 whoever. 22 Q: Okay. Well, who -- do you remember 23 who you handed them over to? 24 A: I don't know if Layton Elijah was 25 taking care of that stuff or not.
241 Q: Okay. Do you also recall attending 2 with Members from the SIU on or about October the 15th, 3 1995, and showing them the locations, the approximate 4 locations of where you saw Dudley George fall? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Thank you Mr. Doxtator, those are my 7 questions. The Commission concludes its examination, Mr. 8 Commissioner, and perhaps we could hear from cross- 9 examining counsel. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much, Ms. Vella. Okay, could we do an indication 12 now of who expects to cross-examine Mr. Doxtator and how 13 long it might be. Could you please indicate if you wish 14 to cross-examine him, by standing up. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Perhaps two (2) or 16 three (3) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And on 18 behalf of Premier Harris, Ms. McAleer? 19 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Approximate ten 20 (10) to fifteen (15) minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 22 the OPP, Ms. Tuck-Jackson? 23 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Twenty (20) to 24 thirty (30) minutes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones,
251 on behalf of the OPPA? 2 MS. KAREN JONES: About three (3) hours. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 4 say it again? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Three (3) hours. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: For three 7 (3) hours...? Okay. Shall we begin? That's it? Shall 8 we begin? Let's begin with you then, Mr. Rosenthal, I 9 think you're first. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 12 Scullion, will you have some questions? 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I may. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 16 Commissioner, good morning. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: Good morning, Mr. Doxtator. I'm 20 representing some of the people from Stony Point under 21 the name Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 22 I just wanted to ask you about one (1) 23 thing. I gather that you testified at the trial of 24 Officer Deane; is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
261 Q: And I understand that as you -- after 2 you concluded your testimony at that trial, you were 3 placed under arrest; is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that was by some OPP Officers? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Were you given any indication as to 8 why that arrest immediately followed your testimony at 9 the Deane trial? 10 A: Excuse me, could you give me the 11 question again, just... 12 Q: Did you find out from the officers or 13 from anyone why they arrested you then, right after you 14 testified at the Deane trial? 15 A: They had a blank warrant, the guy 16 showed me, and there was nothing on it, and he should 17 have had outstanding -- a warrant on me for -- about five 18 (5) guys had me charged. 19 Q: And that warrant was for offences 20 that allegedly had been committed well before this time; 21 is that correct? Well -- 22 A: Well, they -- 23 Q: -- well before the time you were 24 arrested? 25 A: They -- they just built them all up,
271 you know, so that it looked like I had something to do 2 with this. 3 Q: Was there any indication by the 4 officers as to why they executed the warrant, in other 5 words, arrested you, at that point rather than doing it 6 either earlier or later? 7 A: Pardon? 8 Q: The -- the warrant was for charges 9 that had nothing to do with the incident that we're 10 investigating at this Inquiry; correct? Just for some 11 entirely unrelated matters; is that correct? 12 A: It all had to do with guns, but I was 13 never questioned about guns or arrested for guns or 14 nothing. 15 Q: Okay. But -- but it didn't have 16 anything to do with what happened at Stony Point; 17 correct? 18 A: No, not directly. 19 Q: So, was it just a coincidence that 20 they arrested you at the Deane trial, or did that have 21 something to do with the Deane trial, do you think? 22 A: Oh, yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 24 Scullion. 25 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If I may, this has
281 nothing to do with -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This has 3 nothing to do -- he's already said it has nothing to do 4 with it. There's no connection, you've already -- you've 5 said that -- that -- he's agreed it has no connection. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. The charges 7 have no connection but the fact that he was testifying at 8 the Deane trial, which, of course, does have a 9 connection, the Deane trial, and then was -- had a 10 warrant executed at that moment might suggest something 11 about the behaviour the OPP in connection to the Deane 12 Trial -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 14 how he would know that. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 17 how he would know that. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No. No. No. He 19 wouldn't. But I was just exploring from that vantage 20 point, sir, and -- and I'm just trying to find out what 21 he knew. And I think I've found out what he knows. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I will thank 24 him and thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
291 very much, Mr. Rosenthal. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, sir. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Doxtator, I'm just 4 going to ask you to please ensure that the mike -- you 5 speak into the microphone. Maybe we can pull it up to 6 you a little bit closer. Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. McAleer 8 on behalf of -- I think -- oh yes. I'm sorry. In order 9 -- our sequence -- you're up now Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 10 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I believe I'm 11 up next, am I not, sir? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You are 13 absolutely right. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 16 Q: Good morning, Mr. Doxtator. 17 A: Good morning. 18 Q: My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson, sir. 19 I am here today on behalf of the OPP. 20 Last Thursday, sir, you claimed to have 21 seen approximately ten (10) persons clad in rubber suits, 22 carrying guns as they headed towards the lake from within 23 the Park following the shooting of Dudley George. 24 Do I have that evidence correct? 25 A: Yes.
301 Q: And I trust, sir, that you would have 2 us believe that those individuals were police officers? 3 A: Well, I just presumed they were. 4 They were -- nobody was -- was -- 5 Q: I'm sorry. You just presumed they 6 were? 7 A: They're the only ones that had guns, 8 running around in the Park. 9 Q: Sir, I want you to turn to Tab 2 of 10 the materials that you have before you. Would you agree 11 with me, sir, that what we have before you at Tab 2 is a 12 transcript of a taped statement that you provided to the 13 SIU on October the 12th, 1995? 14 Do you agree, sir, that that's what that 15 document is? 16 A: I guess it looks like it. 17 Q: I understand, sir, that you met with 18 Wayne Allen (phonetic) of the SIU that day; correct? 19 A: That's what it says. 20 Q: And I understand, sir, that you 21 provided a forty (40) minute taped interview to Officer 22 Allen; do I have that correct? 23 A: It could have been forty (40) 24 minutes; I'm not sure. 25 Q: Well, you'll notice, sir, at the very
311 top of the transcript there's an indication that the 2 interview begins at 6:20 p.m.; do you see that? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Excuse me, 1:40 p.m. Oops. See, it 7 says that the interview begins at twenty (20) minutes 8 after 6:00? First and second line, sir, of the page. 9 A: I see it, yeah. 10 Q: And if you go to the very end of that 11 transcript, sir, you'll note that the interview concludes 12 at 7:02 p.m.; correct? 13 A: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 14 Q: Thank you. So you would agree that 15 you spoke with the officers for forty (40) minutes on 16 October the 12th, 1995? 17 A: Looks like it. 18 Q: And if you go, sir, to page 2 of that 19 transcript, at the very top, Officer Allen asked that you 20 turn your mind back to September the 6th? Correct? 21 A: Yeah, yes. 22 Q: And he asked you to tell him what you 23 recalled happening on that date. 24 A: Pardon me? 25 Q: He asked you to tell him what you
321 recalled happening on that date? Correct? 2 A: Yes, yes. 3 Q: And he asked you to tell him what you 4 thought was important for him to know. Correct? 5 A: I guess. Yes. 6 Q: Thank you. 7 A: And you'd agree with that over the 8 course of that forty (40) minute interview you, for 9 example, provided Officer Allen with the detail that you 10 had observed what you believed to be OPP officers on 11 their belly on the morning of September the 6th in the 12 weeds adjacent to the parking lot? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And as Ms. Vella did, I also 15 carefully reviewed this interview transcript, sir, and I 16 could find no reference to any rubber-suited men carrying 17 firearms in the Park after the shooting of Dudley George. 18 Are you prepared to agree with me, sir, 19 that at no time during this forty (40) minute interview, 20 do you make any mention of that detail? 21 A: I don't know, I didn't read it. 22 Q: Well, I want to be entirely fair to 23 you, sir. Would you like an opportunity now to read the 24 transcript of the interview in its entirety? 25 A: Well, if it's not there, it's not
331 there. 2 Q: And you're prepared to agree that 3 it's not there because you did not mention it? 4 A: I'm pretty sure I'd mention it to 5 them at the one (1) point when we were being interviewed. 6 Q: Well, I'd like you to help us out, 7 sir. If you mentioned it, where is it in this 8 transcript? 9 A: I don't know where it is, but when I 10 -- when I was interviewed, I mentioned it to somebody 11 about this and I'm not -- I don't remember who it was -- 12 whoever was interviewing us. 13 Q: Do you doubt, sir, that nowhere in 14 this transcript is there any mention by you about these 15 rubber-suited clad individuals? Because I want to make 16 sure we're very clear on this point. 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: And if you need the time, sir, to 19 review the transcript, I'm sure we're all quite prepared 20 to give it to you. 21 A: Yeah, I'll go through it. 22 Q: What's fine? 23 A: If you want me to go look it, I'll 24 look at it. 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr.
341 Commissioner, it would appear the witness wants an 2 opportunity to do that. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It might be 4 useful for you -- for us to take a little recess and give 5 you a chance to read it at your pace. Is that -- 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. Commission, 7 I can advise that I'll be asking similar questions in 8 relation to the statement that I understand Mr. Doxtator 9 provided to the SIU on September the 26th of 1997, and 10 further in relation to his testimony on the Deane trial 11 on April the 2nd, 1997. So, it may be useful for him to 12 review all of those materials. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 14 like an opportunity to review those documents? You're 15 going to be questioned about them, so I think it would be 16 a good idea -- 17 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- for you 19 to take some time and read them over. 20 THE WITNESS: All right. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, why 22 don't we take a break and give Mr. Doxtator a chance to 23 review those documents. 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Just -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The two (2)
351 SIU statements and the transcript of the Deane trial. 2 MR. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, and Mr. 3 Doxtator, just so that Mr. -- or, excuse me, Mr. 4 Commissioner, just so that Mr. Doxtator understands, 5 they're the three (3) documents that are in the binder 6 before him. That's all I'm interested in. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They're -- 8 they're -- I think their Tabs 1, 2 and 3, if I'm not 9 mistaken. 10 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: They are, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tabs, 1, 2 12 and 3. Thank you very much, we'll take a short break. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 11:13 a.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 12:05 a.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumes, please be seated. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I take it 21 you've had a chance to review the documents now? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 25 Q: Mr. Doxtator, having had an
361 opportunity to review the transcript of your interview 2 with the SIU on October the 12th, 1995, I trust you will 3 agree with me that at no time do you make any reference 4 to the rubber suited persons that you claim to have seen 5 leaving the Park after the shooting? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Do you agree, sir? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. Tell me, sir, where in 12 the transcript you refer to the rubber-cladded (sic) 13 individuals leaving the Park? 14 A: On Page 10. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which 16 statement is this? The first one in Tab 1 or Tab 2? 17 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. I have a problem, 18 I can't see that good. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. What 20 is it, 2? 21 THE WITNESS: Number 2. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 2? The 23 October 12th one? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 9?
371 THE WITNESS: Page 10. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10). 3 THE WITNESS: That's just what I was 4 describing to them, but I don't know how it got twisted 5 around like this in here. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: 8 Q: Sorry, where are you referring to, 9 sir? 10 A: About half way back -- half way down. 11 Q: Can you give me some words, sir? 12 A: Well, I'll start above it: 13 "I didn't have no stick or nothing. I 14 went looking for a stick and I think 15 somebody said there was -- what do you 16 call it? The Badgers are in the Park 17 and when I went back to get a stick, I 18 seen some people, you know, the fight 19 was going on. I saw people run like a 20 couple of stragglers here and there and 21 I seen them and I noticed where the 22 parking lot was, there was poplar trees 23 there, but I seen movement all across. 24 I seen maybe eight (8) to ten (10) 25 guys. I thought those were our guys,
381 like, the -- the guys, the -- the 2 people that was there, but it wasn't." 3 This is the part I was talking about, when 4 I was describing to them about the people I seen, but I 5 don't know how they got it wrote down here. Do you have 6 any -- did you want me to continue reading, or -- 7 Q: No, sir, I want to make sure that I 8 understand the context of the comment. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It appears 13 as if he makes some reference to them having black 14 clothing on somewhere in that -- a little beyond the part 15 that he read. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: 18 Q: Sir, you agree with me that when you 19 heard the comment about the Badgers in the Park over the 20 radio, that was prior to the shooting? Isn't that 21 correct? 22 A: I can't be positive, it's a long time 23 ago. 24 Q: You can't be positive? 25
391 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Would you agree with me, sir, that in 4 the context of the statement that you're giving here at 5 Page 10, that you're referring to events prior to the 6 shooting, not after the shooting? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: This -- I believe this done about 11 maybe a month later, October the 12th. 12 Q: No, sir. I'm asking for the context 13 of the comments, sir. You were referring to seeing 14 individuals prior to the shooting of Dudley George in the 15 sequence of events on the evening of September the 6th. 16 A: When I was being interviewed I was 17 mis -- a little confusing. 18 Q: You were a little confused? 19 A: When I was being interviewed. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Well, I'm just telling you what I 24 seen that night. 25 Q: You would agree with me, sir, that
401 you armed yourself with a stick prior to the shooting of 2 Dudley George, correct? 3 A: I had a stick. I picked a stick off 4 the ground. 5 Q: Right. And I understand, sir, that 6 after the shooting of Dudley George, the police 7 retreated? Correct? 8 A: Yeah, they took off. 9 Q: And so I trust, sir, that you would 10 have no reason to pick up a stick at that point, correct? 11 A: I don't understand your question. 12 Q: Would you agree with me, sir, that 13 the police retreated after Dudley George was shot? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: They went back up East Parkway Drive? 16 A: Yeah, they ran -- ran out of there. 17 Q: And you'd agree with me, sir, that 18 there would have been no reason for you to pick up a 19 stick after the police had left the parking lot area and 20 retreated back up East Parkway Drive? 21 A: I'm not sure I understand what 22 you're -- 23 Q: Well, for you, I trust, the only 24 reason you would arm yourself with a stick is in case you 25 had a confrontation with a police officer on that night.
411 A: If I picked up a stick there were -- 2 I was probably thinking they were coming back. 3 Q: Thinking of them coming back? 4 A: Maybe. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: I want to go back up a little bit to 9 the statement at Page 10. You state: 10 "Another thing, when the fighting was 11 going on I remember I jumped across 12 that fence, you know..." 13 So this is as the fighting is going on, do 14 I have that correct? What you're about to tell us in 15 this statement? It's as the fighting is going on? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: It's pretty confusing 'cause there 20 was a lot of things going on, people running all over the 21 place. 22 Q: You hear a comment, the badgers are 23 in the Park. Is that correct? 24 A: I believe I did. 25 Q: You hear that from where?
421 A: Somebody hollered it out. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: According to this statement, sir, 6 that's something that was heard over the radio, isn't 7 that correct? 8 A: Someone -- there was a few people had 9 little walkie-talkies and radios. It's probably came 10 over there. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: You say in your statement, sir, that 15 these individuals that you see running around, you say in 16 your statement: 17 "I couldn't really say I seen guns." 18 You see that, further down? 19 A: I seen it, yeah. 20 Q: You agree that you were telling the 21 truth to the police? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: So I trust then that these 24 individuals that you claim to have seen in the Park were 25 not carrying guns?
431 A: I was interviewed more than once, but 2 I -- by whoever these guys are, I don't know them, but I 3 know that I mentioned to somebody when I was being 4 interviewed that I seen these guys with black, looked 5 like rubber -- rubber suits on and -- and carrying guns 6 and running like a tip-toeing run across in line with the 7 poplar trees. 8 Q: Sir, I want to take you back to your 9 -- your interview here. Approximately eight (8) lines up 10 from the bottom of your long answer and you say: 11 "I'd say maybe ten (10) -- eight (8) to 12 ten (10) whatever, you know, I just 13 seen them moving across -- movement, I 14 could see them running sideways, like, 15 I couldn't really say I seen guns." 16 I'm pausing there for a moment. I trust 17 that you were telling the truth to the police? 18 A: Yeah, I see it. 19 Q: And you were telling the truth to the 20 police? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: So you can't say with any certainty 23 that the individuals that you claim to have seen in the 24 Park were bearing firearms? 25 A: I seen a rifle. I seen them carrying
441 rifles, I seen the men. 2 Q: We'll start again, sir. You'd agree 3 with me that on October the 12th, 1995, you told the 4 police in relation to these particular individuals: 5 "I could see them running sideways, 6 like, I couldn't really say I seen 7 guns." 8 Do you see that portion? 9 A: I -- I see it. 10 Q: And I trust that you were telling the 11 truth? 12 A: Yeah, I was telling the truth. 13 Q: So I trust, sir, that you cannot say 14 with any certainty that these individuals you claim to 15 have seen in the Park were carrying guns? 16 A: It's not wrote down here, but I seen 17 them with my own eyes, is what I'm telling you. 18 Q: So, is it your evidence, sir, that 19 your memory is improving with time? 20 A: No. 21 Q: So I trust, sir, that what you told 22 the police back on October the 12th, 1995, would be a 23 more accurate account of what occurred about a month 24 earlier than what you're telling us today? 25 A: I can't remember for sure, but I
451 don't know if this is word for word, like every word that 2 I said, you know. 3 Q: Sir, were you ever given an 4 opportunity to review the transcript that you're looking 5 at now? Apart from today? Did the police, sir, ever 6 give you an opportunity to review the transcript of your 7 video-taped statement of October 12th, 1995? 8 A: I'm not sure. I can't remember. 9 Q: You can't remember? 10 A: No. 11 Q: I trust, sir, that if you had an 12 opportunity to review that transcript, you would have 13 caught this error and you would have corrected it? 14 A: What do you mean error? 15 Q: Well, you seem to be suggesting, sir, 16 that it was erroneous or a misrepresentation when you 17 told the police back on May the 12th that you couldn't 18 say that you had seen guns with these individuals? 19 A: That's what it says here, yeah. 20 Q: Right. And I'm trying to figure out, 21 Mr. Doxtator, whether or not that statement is accurate 22 or whether your claim today that you definitely saw guns 23 is accurate? 24 A: Yeah, it is. I seen -- they didn't 25 have uniforms on.
461 Q: They didn't have uniforms on, these 2 people you say, you -- you think that they were clad in 3 rubber suits, is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I'll be very candid with you, Mr. 6 Doxtator. I anticipate that we're going to hear from a 7 variety of witnesses who were in a position to know that 8 there were no officers clad in rubber suits, armed with 9 rifles in that Park that night. 10 A: Maybe nobody else seen them, but I 11 seen them. 12 Q: Well, it's interesting that you 13 should mention that because I was going to -- to make 14 sure you understood that of all the Occupiers in the Park 15 that we have heard from at this Inquiry thus far, as far 16 as I'm aware, nobody has made any reference to rubber- 17 cladded persons running through that Park on the night of 18 September the 6th. Does that come as a surprise to you, 19 sir? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 23 Scullion, would you like to make -- I wanted her to 24 finish the question before you objected. 25 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's more the line
471 of questioning, Mr. Commissioner. He has testified today 2 as to what he recalled seeing. The statement is there. 3 He's testified he never had a chance to review it or to 4 correct it. To speculate on whether or not he would have 5 if he had a chance -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- I don't think 8 takes us anywhere -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 10 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- and he's -- he's 11 testified as to what he does know. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm 13 assuming -- 14 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I object just to the 15 line of questioning. I think we've hammered it from a 16 number of different directions and may be time to move 17 on. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm assuming 19 you passed up that point now, Ms. Tuck-Jackson, regarding 20 that. 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: I'm quite done 22 with it, yes. Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 24 thought so. Yes? 25 MR. VILCO ZBOGAR: I'd just like to add
481 one (1) point and that is, I don't know if the tape 2 recording of this transcript exists, but we're focussing 3 a lot on one (1) particular sentence and that sentence 4 can be parsed in a number of different ways and can be 5 interpreted depending on how you parse it in different 6 ways. 7 For example, if there's a comma between, 8 "I couldn't say" and -- and the comment about seeing 9 guns, it gives it a completely different meaning, so 10 maybe having a tape recording is important if we're going 11 to ask any further questions on this point. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 13 we're past this point, now, so let's move on. I think 14 you've gotten as much out of this as you can, Ms. Tuck 15 Jackson. 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 19 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that you 20 testified at the trial of Kenneth Deane on April the 2nd, 21 1997? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You were called by the Crown on that 24 occasion? 25 A: Pardon?
491 Q: You were called by the Crown as a 2 witness on that occasion? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that during 5 the course of that testimony, you referred to the fact 6 that on the morning of September the 6th, you saw a 7 number of officers in the weeds doing what you thought 8 was surveillance of the occupiers in the Park? 9 And if it assists you, sir, it appears at 10 Page 54 of the transcript which is at Tab 3 of the 11 materials before you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The excerpt 13 that I have begins at Page 145. What page are you 14 reading from? I'm not sure if he has the same as I do. 15 The excerpt I have begins at Page 145. Maybe the 16 numbering system is different. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I believe 21 the excerpt I have is when he began his testimony, 22 because I can see he was affirmed on Page 145. 23 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: That's 24 interesting, Mr. Commissioner, because I have it 25 beginning at Page 45 that he begins his Examination-in-
501 Chief. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I can only -- I can 3 only suggest that in the document database, this 4 testimony has been produced by more than one (1) source, 5 but it's the same transcript, just different page 6 numbering. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: Perhaps if -- 9 if we turn to Page 154? Yes, it seems as if we're a 10 hundred (100) pages off in my version as compared to 11 everyone else's. I don't know why. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifty-four 13 (54). If it stays consistent, then we can work with it. 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: Pardon? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If it stays 16 consistent at a hundred (100) pages off, we can work with 17 it. 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: It seems to be 19 what's the case. I can't imagine why, but in any event, 20 Page 154 on everybody else's, which is Page 54 on mine. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: 23 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that you 24 testified at around Line 23: 25 "I seen them. I seen a cop rolling
511 around in the weeds like he wanted to 2 be seen with a weapon, you know. It 3 looked like an AR-15 M-16 and I noticed 4 a few more behind him. As I stood up 5 on the picnic table, looked over, I 6 could see them running all over in the 7 back of the houses and stuff. Maybe 8 twenty (20) of them, I don't know." 9 That was your evidence on that occasion? 10 A: I'm still looking for the part you're 11 reading. 12 Q: It should appear -- 13 A: 155? 14 Q: 154. Beginning around Line 23. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you got 19 a different version of the transcript, Mr. Doxtator? Do 20 you have the same version of the transcript as I have? 21 Page 154? That's the part that Ms. Tuck-Jackson read. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 THE WITNESS: That's the -- no.
521 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? You got 2 a different version? Perhaps you'd take a look at his 3 version, Ms. Vella? 4 If we're working from different 5 transcripts, we're going to have a difficult time getting 6 onto the same page. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 THE WITNESS: Okay, I have it. I was on 11 the wrong page. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 14 Q: Thank you, sir. You'll see that 15 beginning at around Line 23 on Page -- 16 A: Yeah, I see it. 17 Q: All right. The passage that I just 18 read out, I trust that that is what you told the Court 19 under Oath? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Yeah, yes. 24 Q: I trust that was the truth? 25 A: Yes.
531 Q: And you were quite clear that it was 2 approximately twenty (20) individuals who, from your 3 perspective, were lying in the weeds, keeping an eye on 4 the occupiers? 5 A: When I seen them, they were moving. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: My question to you, sir, wasn't 9 whether or not they were moving. My question to you, 10 sir, was that you were being truthful as to the fact that 11 there were approximately twenty (20) such individuals 12 lurking in the weeds. 13 A: There could have been less than 14 twenty (20). 15 Q: You said approximately twenty (20) in 16 your evidence under Oath. Do I have that correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: See, I find it very curious, Mr. 19 Doxtator, because on Thursday of last week that number 20 had changed down to seven (7). 21 Do you recall giving that evidence under 22 Oath -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- last Thursday? 25 A: Yes.
541 Q: Is it your evidence that twenty (20) 2 and seven (7) are approximately the same? 3 A: There was about twenty (20) there. 4 Q: So now it's back to twenty (20)? 5 A: Could I explain myself? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, go 7 ahead. 8 THE WITNESS: When we see -- when I seen 9 the police officers crawling along the roadway, they went 10 behind the buildings and when they all stood up and -- 11 however the rest of them came in, there was probably 12 twenty (20) there, around there, behind the houses. 13 But I probably seen maybe seven (7) to ten 14 (10) crawling along the weeds on the roadway. There was 15 a few other people that seen them also. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 18 Q: So -- I'm sorry, the way you 19 reconcile that difference is that you saw twenty (20) 20 standing up but only seven (7) in the weeds? Is that 21 what you'd have us believe? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 23 Scullion...? 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: My Friend is asking 25 for specifics. The transcript that I have in front of
551 me, he refers to a number of individuals, some behind 2 houses. His exact quote is "maybe twenty (20) of them, I 3 don't know". 4 He's now testified that there's six (6) or 5 seven (7) in the weeds, not seven (7). It may be twenty 6 (20), not exactly twenty (20). It's a little difficult 7 for him nine (9) years later for him to be specific. 8 I object to My Friend's approach in saying 9 are you trying to have us believe this and that. He's 10 been specific to the extent that he can in his evidence. 11 The transcript says certain things. It should be put to 12 him fairly. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 This is cross-examination. I want to give counsel as 15 much leeway she needs to make the point. But you're 16 right, you've read the transcript correctly. "Maybe 17 twenty (20) of them, I don't know". You didn't read that 18 part. Well you did the first time you read it, but you 19 didn't just now. 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Fair enough, 21 Commissioner -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, just to 23 be fair. 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- I think I've 25 made my point. I'll move on.
561 2 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 3 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that at no 4 time during your testimony at the Kenneth Deane trial, do 5 you refer to officers in rubber clad suits? 6 A: I'm not sure. It was a long -- it's 7 a long time ago. 8 Q: Well, sir, didn't you take the 9 opportunity to review your transcript over the break as 10 we suggested that you do? 11 A: I did it the best I could. I can't 12 see that good and this writing had to be re-done so I 13 could read it. 14 Q: Well, actually I'm not referring to 15 the statements that you gave to the police, sir, I'm 16 referring to the transcript of the Deane trial and your 17 evidence, it appears at Tab 3 of those materials, and I'm 18 pleased to say that that print is a bit larger than the 19 other print. 20 Did you have a chance to review it? 21 A: I glanced through it, yeah. Yes. 22 Q: Well, having glanced through it, do 23 you -- are you capable or are you comfortable in 24 responding to my suggestion that at no time do you refer 25 to officers or persons for that matter in rubber suits in
571 the Park after the shooting? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Could I have the question again? 6 Q: Would you agree with me, sir, that at 7 no time during your evidence at Mr. Deane's trial, do you 8 refer to officers clad in rubber suits, particularly in 9 rubber suits running from the Park after the shooting? 10 A: No. 11 Q: So you agree with me you didn't 12 mention that? 13 A: Pardon? 14 Q: Would you agree with me, sir, that at 15 no time during your evidence at the Deane trial, do you 16 mention anything about officers or persons, in fairness, 17 persons clad in rubber suits leaving the Park after Mr. 18 George was shot? 19 A: No. 20 Q: So, you're agreeing with me that at 21 no time did you mention that? 22 A: I can't remember. 23 Q: Well, I want to be fair to you, sir, 24 would you like a further opportunity to review your 25 evidence?
581 A: No, that's all right. 2 Q: So, you agree, sir, that at no time 3 at that trial did you mention anything about officers 4 clad -- excuse me, persons clad in rubber suits leaving 5 the Park after the shooting? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Thank you, you're agreeing with me, I 8 trust. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And even though, as you 11 pointed out, a reference to people in connection with the 12 badger comment that you make in your statement of October 13 the 12th, 1995 -- I'll leave the point, I'm not going to 14 go back. 15 I want to take you to your evidence, sir, 16 from Thursday and for My Friends' benefit, I'm referring 17 to page 193 of the transcript. In response to the 18 following question by Ms. Vella, I'm going to suggest you 19 gave the following answer. 20 You don't have this transcript in front of 21 you, sir. I'm going to have to read it to you. 22 "Q: All right. And would you put the 23 number 1 beside that so that we know 24 what that refers to. All right. And 25 what did the police, when they advanced
591 to that location which is part way 2 across the sandy parking lot -- 3 A: I believe they stopped and there 4 was a commanding officer was ordering 5 them around but he -- I think he asked 6 us to leave the Park or we'll be 7 charged with trespassing, I believe. 8 I'm not positive. 9 Q: You think he asked you to leave the 10 Park or you'd be charged with 11 trespassing? 12 A: I -- I think so." 13 Do you recall being asked those questions 14 and giving those answers, sir, on Thursday? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I trust, sir, having regard to 17 the manner in which you answered those questions, you 18 cannot say with any certainty that any officer that night 19 asked you to leave the Park or told you to leave the Park 20 or else you'd be charged with trespassing? 21 Do you understand my question? 22 A: No, not really. 23 Q: Okay. In response to Mr. Vella's 24 inquiries, you indicated that you thought the officer 25 asked you to leave the Park. You believe that that's
601 what the officer said, but you were not positive. 2 And in particular, when asked the 3 question: 4 "You think he asked you to leave the 5 Park or you'd be charged with 6 trespassing?" 7 Your answer was: 8 "I -- I think so." 9 And what I'm suggesting to you, sir, is 10 that you can be in no way certain that the officer in 11 charge of that unit that came down East Parkway Drive 12 that night, you cannot be certain that what he said to 13 you was get out of the Park or we're going to charge you 14 with trespassing. You can't be certain that that's what 15 he said. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: It's been a long time. I -- it's 20 hard to say. 21 Q: Thank you. Again, sir, in fairness 22 to you, it might be of assistance in -- in the manner 23 which you respond to -- to my questions, that no other 24 occupier from whom we're heard to date has indicated that 25 that command was uttered by the commanding officer as
611 that unit approached the fence. 2 Does that assist you in any way in knowing 3 that information, that nobody else heard that, that we've 4 heard from? 5 A: Well, it's kind of -- it's like I 6 said, it's pretty confusing. It's been a long time and a 7 lot of things happened that day and night. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Thank you. I think we have your 12 answer. You'd agree with me, sir, that the only occasion 13 on Tuesday, September the 5th, or Wednesday, September 14 the 6th, that the police asked you to relocate was when 15 you were on the sandy parking lot? 16 And we know that you were on the sandy 17 parking lot on the evening of September the 5th. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So you agree with me that the only 20 time the police asked you to relocate over the course of 21 those two (2) days was when you were in that sandy 22 parking lot? 23 A: I can't be positive. 24 Q: I'm sorry? You can't be positive? 25 A: Are you talking about the 5th or the
621 6th? 2 Q: What I'm asking you, sir, that over 3 the course of those two (2) days when you were down at 4 the Park, what I'm putting to you is that the only time 5 that you were asked to move or to relocate by a police 6 officer was the time that you were in the sandy parking 7 lot on the evening of September the 5th? 8 A: I can't remember. 9 Q: You can't remember if there were 10 other occasions? 11 A: Are you talking -- like, said it 12 right to me or you're talking about the group of people 13 that was there? 14 Q: I'm talking about you. 15 A: Not directly at me. 16 Q: All right. Perhaps -- perhaps I'm 17 not making myself clear as to the import of my question. 18 The only time that you, as part of a group, were asked to 19 relocate, I'm going to suggest, was on the evening of 20 September the 5th when you were in that sandy parking 21 lot? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Thank you. I understand, sir, that 24 at no time on September the 5th did you see the police in 25 the fenced-in Park?
631 A: Can I hear the question again? 2 Q: At no time on September the 5th, did 3 you see the police in the fenced-in Park? 4 A: No, I didn't see them there. 5 Q: Thank you. And apart from the 6 rubber-suited persons that you claim to have seen in the 7 Park after the shooting of Dudley George, and who may, 8 according to you, be police -- apart from those 9 individuals, I'm going to suggest that at no time did you 10 see any police officer inside the Park on September the 11 6th? 12 A: I don't know who the officer -- I 13 don't know of they were officers that were on the -- what 14 -- who -- whoever I seen. I presumed they were police. 15 Q: All right. So, at best now, your 16 evidence is, is that the people in the rubber suit -- you 17 presumed were police, but you can't be certain? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Thank you. All right. Let's go back 20 to my other question that I just asked you. Would have 21 you then agree with me that at no time on September the 22 6th, can you say with any certainty that you saw police 23 in the Park? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Thank you. If you could turn to Page
641 173 of your evidence at the Deane trial, please, at Tab 3 2 -- hopefully our pages will match this time. 3 You'll see, sir, commencing around Line 4 15, you're speaking of the number of shots that you hear 5 during the confrontation between the occupiers and the 6 police. You describe that initially you hear three (3) 7 shots? Is that correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then I understand your evidence, 10 sir, is that you hear a second group of gunfire. Is that 11 correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I understand your evidence to say 14 that you heard at least a hundred (100) or more rounds of 15 gunfire on that night. Is that correct, sir? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: So your evidence before us today is 18 that on the evening of September the 6th, during the 19 confrontation, you heard a hundred (100) or more rounds 20 of gunfire? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Thank you, Mr. Doxtator, those are my 23 questions. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much. Karen Jones?
651 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 3 it's hard to hear you if you're down there. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 6 Jones? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I was 8 just looking at the time and I see it's a quarter to 9 1:00. I was wondering if you wanted me to start or if 10 you would like to take a lunch break now and I'll start 11 immediately when we get back from the break. Do you have 12 a preference? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't, but 14 would it -- no, I don't. It's up to you. I'm prepared 15 to stay. I thought we would adjourn for lunch around 16 1:00. We didn't start until 10:30 and we had a long 17 break. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: That's fine. I can 19 start with -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 21 should do as much as we can. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah, yeah. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 25 Q: Mr. Doxtator, my name's Karen Jones
661 and I'm one of the lawyers who acts for the Ontario 2 Provincial Police Association. Mr. Doxtator, you've been 3 asked a number of questions about the statement that was 4 given to the SIU on October 12th, 1995. 5 Do you remember that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I think you said you can't 8 remember if you reviewed it or you signed it? 9 A: If I what? 10 Q: If you ever had a chance to review it 11 and make sure that it was accurate? Okay. 12 I just wondered if I could help you out a 13 little bit with that, because the Commission Counsel has 14 given us a number of documents, and there's a document in 15 the -- in the -- that's we've been given by the 16 Commission, it's Document 1004508. 17 And that's a copy of this October 12th, 18 1995 anticipated evidence transcript, and at the last 19 page of it, on Page 19, there's a date, September 26th, 20 1997, and there's -- it says: 21 "I have read this statement and agree 22 with its accuracy and contents". 23 And it says -- it looks like it's your 24 signature underneath that. 25 A: Yeah, it looks like it.
671 Q: Okay. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And in the other -- in the documents 4 that we've also been given by the Commission, there's a 5 summary of Mr. Kennedy, who's an SIU investigator, and in 6 that summary he says he meets with you on September the 7 26th, 1997, in Mount Bridge, and he gave you that 8 statement to review and sign if it was accurate. 9 Does that help you remember signing that 10 document and saying that it was accurate and you agreed 11 with the contents? 12 A: Well, I -- I can't really -- I don't 13 really remember. Like, it's kind of confusing to me who 14 these -- all the people at -- have been interviewing me. 15 Q: Oh, sure. But I take it that's your 16 signature? 17 A: Yeah, it is. 18 Q: Yeah. And so I take it that on 19 September 26th, 1997, you read the statement and you 20 agreed with its accuracy and its contents? 21 A: At the time, I guess. 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: Sure. 24 Q: Sure. Okay. Mr. Doxtator, I just 25 wanted to ask you a couple of questions about your
681 background. I think you told the Commissioner that you 2 worked in iron? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I understand that you haven't 5 worked in iron since the 1980's? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Is that right? Okay. And you've 8 told us a little bit about three (3) people that you went 9 to Ipperwash with on September the 5th, Al George and 10 Larry French and Chuck George. 11 And I think you also told the Commissioner 12 last week that you also know Russ and Les Jewel. How did 13 you know those two (2) men? 14 A: They're -- they come from -- their 15 dad is from Oneida and they used to live there. 16 Q: Do you know whether or not they lived 17 in the States for a while? 18 A: They moved away a long time ago and - 19 - when we were kids and I think they moved to -- they 20 were down south and in Michigan, all over. I don't know 21 where exactly. 22 Q: Okay. Had -- okay. And do you know 23 where they were in Michigan? 24 A: Maybe Detroit. 25 Q: Okay. Do you know how long they were
691 there for? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Do you know when they came back to 4 Ipperwash? 5 A: Not -- not -- not the exact date. 6 Q: No. Do you know if it was in the 7 summer of 1995? 8 A: Yes, I believe it was. 9 Q: Okay. And I wanted to also ask you a 10 few questions about your experience with guns. I 11 understood from your evidence last week that you had some 12 familiarity with guns? 13 14 A: Yes, I hunted all my life. 15 Q: Sure. And I take it that you also 16 have some experience or know or have information about 17 other kinds of weapons such as AR-15s? 18 A: Yes, I think I got about three (3) 19 gun books at home. 20 Q: Sure. 21 A: It's got them all in there. 22 Q: And M-16s? 23 A: All the weapons. It's got all 24 weapons in there -- pistols, everything. 25 Q: Sure, and AKs?
701 A: Everything. Yes. 2 Q: And minis? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And have you ever had military 5 training? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Have you ever had commando training? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Have you ever had reconnaissance 10 training? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. Do you remember -- have you 13 ever seen military training or commando training or 14 reconnaissance training? 15 A: It's on TV every day. Yeah, I've 16 just got to turn the TV on. I see it all the time. 17 Q: Just from what you see on TV? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And this fellow had asked you 20 some questions about your experience in previous 21 confrontations and I wanted to ask you some questions 22 about that. We heard from a previous witness, Marlin 23 Simon, that you and Dutchie French had been at Wounded 24 Knee. Is that true? 25 A: No.
711 Q: No? Were you at Konenotquay 2 (phonetic)? 3 A: Where's that? 4 Q: In Quebec. 5 A: Are you talking about Gunawoga 6 (phonetic) or Gunazodogay (phonetic). 7 Q: Gonawoga. 8 A: I've been to Gonawoga, yeah. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: I go there all the time. 11 Q: Sure. And I take it you know that 12 the first Warrior Society was formed there in 1972? 13 A: Oh, really? I didn't know that. 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: I didn't know that. 16 Q: Okay. And did you know whether or 17 not the Warrior Society operated with the sanction or the 18 permission of the Mohawk Nation Council of Chiefs? 19 A: I believe so. 20 Q: Okay. And do you -- do you recall or 21 do you have any knowledge, information or belief that one 22 (1) of the first tasks that the Warrior Society took on 23 was to evict almost a thousand (1,000) people from that 24 community? 25 A: Where was this?
721 Q: Gonanogway. 2 A: Gonanogwa? I don't know where 3 Gonanogwa is. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Gonawoga. 6 Q: Gonawoga, I'm sorry. 7 A: No, I didn't. 8 Q: Okay. And did you know that the band 9 council then had to call in the Quebec Provincial Police? 10 A: No, I didn't. 11 Q: And did you know that the Warriors 12 occupied one (1) of the homes of the evicted people? 13 A: No, I didn't know that. 14 Q: And did you know that the Quebec 15 Provincial Police arrived and there was a fight between 16 the Warriors and the police? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 18 Scullion? Perhaps you should stop there, Ms. Jones. 19 Yes, Mr. Scullion? 20 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: My objection is, I 21 think we've gone far enough, he doesn't know anything -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 23 know anything about it. 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- about this issue. 25 It's unrelated. I'm not going to stand up --
731 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 2 understand that. Do you have any evidence -- 3 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- each and every 4 question, but it comes to a point -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 6 any evidence, Ms. Jones, to suggest that he might, in any 7 way, know anything about this or in any way be connected 8 to this? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: I had understood from 10 Marlin Simon's evidence that he was there. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He was? 12 MS. KAREN JONES: I could have been wrong 13 with that, but that's what I understood. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He has just 15 said that he wasn't. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 18 Q: Okay. And are you familiar with the 19 Oneida reservation? 20 A: Yes, that's where I'm from. 21 Q: Right, and were you there in 1988? 22 A: I'm not sure. 23 Q: Okay. Were you on Oneida when the 24 Oneida Warrior Society seized the bingo hall at Oneida 25 Nation? Do you recall that?
741 A: Where? In -- here? No, I don't. 2 Q: Okay. Do you recall that the Oneida 3 Nation obtained a restraining order against the Warriors? 4 Or did you know that? 5 A: Are you talking about Oneida, 6 Ontario? 7 Q: Yes, I am. 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: Okay, do you recall that the Warriors 10 apparently torched the bingo hall? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again, but 12 if we're talking about something that he doesn't know 13 anything about, you can ask him some more details. If he 14 doesn't know anything, and he said he doesn't, I think 15 you should move on -- unless you have some evidence to 16 the contrary. 17 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 19 may I suggest it's not only a question of his knowledge, 20 it's a question of what's relevant to this Inquiry. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: You have enough to 23 do to decide what happened with respect Stony Point not 24 with respect to all these other occupations and she's 25 suggesting that we should bring evidence to the contrary
751 of the allegation she's making about all these other 2 peoples. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There is a 4 question of relevance as well, but let's go on. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 7 Q: I believe that you told Ms. Vella 8 that you were at Aquasasani (phonetic)? Do you recall 9 that? 10 A: Pardon? 11 Q: Aquasasani? I believe you told Ms. 12 Vella last week you were at Aquasasani? 13 A: I used to live in Aquasasani. 14 Q: Okay. And when did you live in 15 Aquasasani? 16 A: Might have been around 1980, around 17 there somewheres. 18 Q: Okay. Where you in Aquasasani in 19 March or April of 1990? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And I believe that you told Ms. Vella 22 last week that you were at Oka? 23 A: I used to live in Oka. 24 Q: Okay. Were you in Oka in the summer 25 of 1990?
761 A: No. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And have you been in Onendega 6 (phonetic)? 7 A: Onendega, I don't know where that is. 8 I know Onadaga. 9 Q: Onadaga, excuse me. Have you been 10 there? 11 A: Or New York? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Were you there during the 15 period of time that the warriors had set up blockades on 16 Highway 81? 17 A: No. I heard about it. 18 Q: Okay. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Mr. Doxtator, I then want to move 23 onto your time at Ipperwash. And I think you told us 24 that you -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, I
771 think this would be a good time to break. It is one 2 o'clock and you're moving into a new topic. I think -- 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- this 5 would be a good time to break. We'll break for lunch 6 now, and we'll reconvene at 2:15. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 8 adjourned until 2:15. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 12:58 p.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 2:16 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: Order, all rise please. 14 This Inquiry is now resumed. Please be seated. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 18 Q: Mr. Doxtator, you told the 19 Commissioner on November the 25th that when you arrived 20 at Ipperwash, I think you said there were police 21 everywhere. There were about thirty (30) cars parked 22 north of Highway 21 on Army Camp Road past the base 23 entrance and police all the way to the lake. 24 Do you recall that? 25 A: What was the date?
781 Q: You said that when you arrived at 2 Ipperwash on September the 5th, 1995 that there were 3 police everywhere. Do you recall that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And I think you told the 6 Commissioner that there were thirty (30) cars parked 7 north of Highway 21 on Army Camp Road past the base 8 entrance? 9 A: Yes, maybe more. 10 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what you 11 saw, Mr. Doxtator? Were the cars in your view parked on 12 the side of the road or on the road? Help us understand 13 what you say you saw. 14 A: They had both lanes -- they were 15 parked from Highway 21 to the entrance of the Army camp, 16 like a snake, like an S, all the way down the road. 17 Q: And how many cars do you say you saw 18 parked? 19 A: Maybe twenty (20). They were also 20 parked across the street, almost -- close to the entrance 21 of the gate. There was a barn parked -- there was a barn 22 there and there was a lot of vehicles parked in there, 23 maybe eight (8) maybe ten (10). I don't know. 24 Q: When you say "close to the gate", 25 what gate are you referring to?
791 A: The entrance of the Army camp base. 2 Q: Okay. Was that along Highway 21? 3 A: Army Camp Road. 4 Q: Army Camp Road. So you say there 5 were eight (8) or so cars parked in front of the gate to 6 Army -- 7 A: On the -- on the -- 8 Q: -- to the base? 9 A: On the property there was a barn 10 across the road, and there was about eight (8) or ten 11 (10) cars, maybe more, parked there. 12 Q: And then you say there were also, 13 what? Thirty (30) cars parked north of there? 14 A: They were from 21 Highway to -- on 15 Army Camp Road to the entrance and further down. 16 Q: Okay. And how far do you say the 17 cars were parked down the road? 18 A: Maybe an eighth of a mile. 19 Q: Okay. And you said to the 20 Commissioner that there were police all the way down to 21 the lake and I wondering -- 22 A: They were parked at different areas 23 all the way. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: On Army Camp Road.
801 Q: Okay. And when you say "all the way 2 down to the lake" do you mean down to Lake Huron? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Were there police cars parked all 5 along the sandy parking lot? Did you see that? 6 A: They were parked on Army Camp Road in 7 different areas. 8 Q: Okay. I'm just trying to figure out, 9 though, when you say "all the way down to the lake", do 10 you mean that they were parked on the sandy parking lot 11 as well, outside of the Park? 12 A: When I eventually got down to the 13 Park, I did see police cars in the area. 14 Q: Okay. And where did you see police 15 cars in the area? 16 A: On Army Camp Road, I'll say south of 17 the Park. 18 Q: Okay. And did you see police cars 19 parked on East Parkway? 20 A: There was a few where you could see 21 them visible. 22 Q: And how many did you see on East 23 Parkway? 24 A: I didn't count them. 25 Q: Can you help us today? Five (5), ten
811 (10)? 2 A: I don't -- 3 Q: Fifteen (15)? 4 A: I don't know. I just seen police 5 cars. 6 Q: Okay. And you also said that there 7 were helicopters flying all over. How many helicopters 8 did you see? 9 A: At that time? 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: Well, we seen them in the air. 12 Q: I know -- I heard what you said. I'm 13 just asking you, how many helicopters did you see in the 14 air? 15 A: At that time or when -- you're 16 talking about -- 17 Q: Well let's start on September the 5th 18 when you told the Commission that they were flying all 19 over, referring to helicopters? I'm just trying to 20 understand how many helicopters that you say were flying? 21 A: I couldn't -- I wouldn't -- I 22 couldn't say for sure because they were -- I seen them 23 four (4) parked in the air, you wouldn't know they were 24 there unless you had binoculars. 25 Q: Okay. So there were four (4)
821 helicopters that you saw? 2 A: Oh, I seen more than that at 3 different times when I was there. 4 Q: Okay. In the air at the same time? 5 A: Flying around. 6 Q: Okay. So four (4) helicopters and 7 you say you saw more in the air at different times? 8 A: At different times. I'm not saying 9 there was four (4) at that time. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I wasn't looking for helicopters. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: But they were in the air. 14 Q: Okay. What was the most number of 15 helicopters that you saw in the air at one time? 16 A: I don't know. I don't know. 17 Q: Did you see helicopters on September 18 the 6th? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: How -- can you help us with about how 21 many helicopters you saw on September the 6th? 22 A: Oh I seen the big yellow one flying 23 around day taking pictures of everybody in the Park. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Big cameras stuck out the side of the
831 door. 2 Q: Okay. Did you see more helicopters 3 than the big yellow helicopter? 4 A: Pardon? 5 Q: Did you see more or other helicopters 6 than the big yellow helicopter? 7 A: Yeah. They were flying around -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- in the area. 10 Q: So there were more than -- more 11 helicopters? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And can you give us some idea about 14 how many helicopters you saw on the 6th? 15 A: I can't say for sure. Maybe two (2) 16 or three (3). 17 Q: In addition to the big yellow one? 18 A: I don't if they were all together. 19 They were in the air flying around. 20 Q: Okay. And I wanted to ask you, Mr. 21 Doxtator, some questions about the picnic table incident. 22 You told us that you were at Ipperwash Park on the 23 evening of September the 5th when there were picnic 24 tables in the sandy parking lot? 25 A: Yes.
841 Q: Do you recall that? And you told the 2 Commissioner on November the -- on November 25th that 3 there were four (4) or five (5) picnic tables in the 4 sandy parking lot, do you remember that? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. And, Mr. Doxtator, when I 7 looked at the statement that you gave to the SIU, and 8 that was the statement dated October the 12th, 1995, and 9 that's the statement that you saw the -- your signature 10 up on the screen where you said it was accurate and you 11 had reviewed it. 12 You'll see, if you have that in front of 13 you, you'll see on page 6 of that statement, that you 14 told the SIU that there were fifty (50) tables out there 15 and maybe more. 16 A: Pardon? 17 Q: You'll see if you look at page 6 of 18 that statement, that's at -- 19 A: On what -- 20 Q: Tab 2 of your book, page 6 and you 21 look about a third down the page you'll see that what you 22 told the SIU was: 23 "I would say there was at least -- 24 well, it would have to be fifty (50) 25 tables out there maybe -- maybe more."
851 A: Inside the Park or outside? 2 Q: Well, what you told the SIU was that 3 you were out in the parking lot holding down tables and 4 you said that: 5 "I would say there was at least -- well 6 it would have to be fifty (50) tables 7 out there, maybe more." 8 And I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. 9 Doxtator that what you told the SIU was more accurate. 10 That there were a larger number of picnic tables out in 11 the sandy parking lot. Do you agree with that? 12 A: I could have, yes. 13 Q: Yeah. And you told the Commission on 14 November 25th, a number of things that you say happened 15 around the picnic table incident. And first of all, you 16 told the Commissioner that the police were throwing 17 sticks and stones at the occupiers when they were behind 18 the fence. Do you recall that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you said that an officer called 21 over to us, Welcome to Canada, and said he would take 22 anyone on and that someone hollered at Dudley and said 23 they would kick his ass? Or he would be first? Do you 24 recall that? 25 A: Yeah.
861 Q: And then you talked about an officer 2 trying to hit a guy with his big stick and you thought 3 that it was J. T. that was hit and who then threw sand in 4 the officer's face. Do you recall that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then you said he pulled out a can 7 of spray and he sprayed it. Do you remember that? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And, Mr. Doxtator, I'm going to take 10 you again, to the statement that you gave to the SIU and 11 that's at Tab 2 of your book. 12 A: What page? 13 Q: And if you look at Page 6. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay? And you'll see, about halfway 16 down the page there, you say that: 17 "The guy -- there was a guy -- a short 18 guy with a moustache that came up first 19 when they came up there. He said -- 20 when he called, he says, Any one (1) of 21 you guys, he says, come on out here -- 22 right out here, he says. I'll take any 23 one (1) of yours on right now." 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And do you agree with me, Mr.
871 Doxtator, when you read your account of that incident 2 that you gave to the SIU, there's nothing in there about 3 a police officer saying anything like, "Welcome to 4 Canada". 5 A: I don't know. 6 Q: Well, have a look-see. 7 A: Right here on this page? 8 Q: Well, you've had an opportunity this 9 morning to read the statement and if you want to take a 10 little bit more time now and read it -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- please feel free. But I'm just 13 going to suggest to you, there is nothing in that 14 statement about any police officer saying words like, 15 "Welcome to Canada". 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And there's nothing in that statement 18 that says anything about a can of spray or spray being -- 19 or the Occupiers being sprayed by the police. Do you 20 agree with me about that? 21 A: Well, I didn't read it, but yes. 22 Q: And there's nothing in there about 23 one (1) of the Occupiers throwing sand at an officer? 24 A: Well, I don't see it, but I -- yes. 25 Q: And there's nothing in that statement
881 about police throwing sticks and stones at the occupiers? 2 A: Well, I don't see it right now, no. 3 Q: And there's nothing there about any 4 police officer having a club out? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And there's nothing in there about 7 any police officer making a threat to Dudley George or 8 anyone else on the evening of September the 5th? 9 A: Well, I -- I don't see it, no. 10 Q: Right. And, in fact, you told the 11 SIU, Mr. Doxtator, that it was the next morning that an 12 OPP officer said to Dudley, You are mine, and he -- you - 13 - you told the SIU that was said at Dudley's trailer and 14 you weren't even there, you were just told about it -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- by someone else. Isn't that 17 right? 18 A: Yeah, they told us when we got down 19 to the Park. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And I then wanted to turn -- ask you 25 some questions about September the 6th. And I understand
891 that on September the 6th when you were in the Park, you 2 were wearing camouflage gear? Is that right? 3 A: Like -- like what? 4 Q: Like pants and a shirt that had a 5 camouflage pattern on them. 6 A: I'm not sure if I had pants on -- 7 camouflage pants. I had a yellow T-shirt on. 8 Q: Okay. And during the course of the 9 day on September 6th, Mr. Doxtator, you said you started 10 off in the morning being told that the police were back 11 in the Park, so you went up to the Park? 12 Do you recall that? 13 A: Yes, I think everybody did. 14 Q: Sure. And do you recall that you 15 went up with a number of people or there were a number of 16 people driving up at the same time? 17 A: Yeah, I believe I got a ride with 18 somebody. 19 Q: Yeah. And do you recall that some of 20 the people who went up to the Park had clubs or bats with 21 them? 22 A: I don't know. 23 Q: Okay. And during the course of the 24 day on September the 6th, did you see the occupiers 25 collecting bats or clubs or poles?
901 A: No, but I think there was people -- 2 kids around there playing baseball or playing catch with 3 a bat and ball. Kids were playing with stuff -- 4 Q: Right. 5 A: I don't ... 6 Q: Did you see the occupiers collecting 7 rocks -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- inside the fence? Did you see the 10 occupiers digging up bricks around the store and piling 11 them up? 12 A: For what -- digging up for -- no. 13 Q: No? Did you see or did you know 14 whether some of the occupiers were patrolling the Park 15 and the base? 16 A: I think they were. 17 Q: Yeah. Did you see or did you know 18 whether some of the occupiers were manning observation 19 posts around the Park or the base? 20 A: Pardon? 21 Q: Did you see or did you know whether 22 the occupiers were manning observation posts in the Park 23 or in the base? 24 A: People were just sitting around in 25 the Park on picnic tables.
911 Q: The entire day? 2 A: Yeah. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And you gave us some evidence about 7 in the afternoon or the evening of September the 6th that 8 Cecil Bernard George brought two (2) scanners and two (2) 9 walkie-talkies into the Park. 10 A: That's how much he -- that's how many 11 he was -- he -- he said he was bringing, I'm not sure how 12 many he brought. 13 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not 14 other people had scanners or walkie-talkies or radios in 15 the Park? 16 A: There was all kinds of them around. 17 Q: Sure. There were a lot of them, 18 right? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Yeah. And you spoke a little bit 21 about being out on the road with Cecil Bernard George 22 when he was doing his checking out of the police on East 23 Parkway -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- do you recall that? And do you
921 recall whether or not you -- when you were out on the 2 road with him, whether you had a stick or any kind of a 3 weapon with you? 4 A: I had a radio in my hand. 5 Q: Okay. Did you have a stick or 6 anything else in your hand? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. And you told us that a little 9 while later the police came down the road hitting their 10 shields and I wonder, can you tell us how many police did 11 you see come down the road? 12 A: A lot of them. 13 Q: Okay. And when you say "a lot", what 14 does that mean? Can you give us -- 15 A: Probably -- maybe fifty (50) or more. 16 Q: Fifty (50) or more police? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And can you tell us what kind of a 19 formation they came down the road in? 20 A: Well, they almost took the whole 21 road. They were in rows. 22 Q: Okay. Could you see how many rows 23 there were? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Could you see how many officers there
931 were across each row? 2 A: No, I -- 3 Q: No? 4 A: I didn't count them. 5 Q: Okay. And did all of the police that 6 you saw come down East Parkway or did they come down 7 other roads as well? 8 A: Yeah, they marched down Parkway. 9 Q: Okay. Did you see police coming down 10 Army Camp Road or in any other direction? 11 A: You could see them parked up the 12 road, yeah. 13 Q: When you -- 14 A: -- different places. 15 Q: Okay, tell me all the places that you 16 could see the police in? 17 A: Army Camp Road and East Parkway. 18 Q: Okay. And where could you see the 19 police on Army Camp Road? 20 A: On Army Camp Road. 21 Q: Okay, were they -- if you look behind 22 you, Mr. Doxtator, you'll see a diagram -- if you look 23 behind you. 24 A: Yeah, I know. 25 Q: Okay. And that diagram shows the
941 intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp Road in the 2 sandy parking lot. 3 Can you tell us whether the police that 4 you saw on Army Camp Road, were they in the vicinity of 5 the sandy parking lot or close to East Parkway? 6 A: There were south of -- this way. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: South. 9 Q: They -- so, would they be off the map 10 that's behind you? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And when you saw police on 13 Army Camp Road, were they police that were on foot or 14 were they police that were in cars? 15 A: They were parked here and there on 16 the road. You could see them. 17 Q: Okay. How many car -- 18 A: I don't know. 19 Q: -- police cars did you see? 20 A: I didn't count them. 21 Q: More than five (5)? More than ten 22 (10)? 23 A: I didn't count them. 24 Q: Okay. And you also told the 25 Commissioner that a dog was barking at the turnstile and
951 it went out and the police started beating and kicking it 2 and they must have knocked it out. Do you recall that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did you see the dog when it went out 5 into the sandy parking lot? 6 A: I couldn't see it, I could hear it. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: So, you never saw what happened with 9 the dog? 10 A: You could see the police move over 11 and the dog barking there and whatever they done to it. 12 Q: You couldn't see what the police did 13 with the dog? 14 A: You couldn't see that because the 15 police were standing there. 16 Q: Right, so you just -- 17 A: There were too many of there. 18 Q: Right, so you just assumed that the 19 police were beating it and that they knocked it out? 20 A: Well, you could see it. You couldn't 21 see the dog, but you could hear him yelping. 22 Q: Okay. And at or about the time that 23 the dog was out in the sandy parking lot or after you 24 told us that Worm went out and a fight started, do you 25 recall occupiers behind the fence in the Park throwing
961 rocks at the police? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Do you recall them throwing limbs or 4 trees or large sticks at the police? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Do you recall them throwing pieces of 7 wood that were lit on fire at the police? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Do you recall the occupiers throwing 10 anything at the police at any time? Over the fence, 11 between the Park and the sandy parking lot? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And you gave the Commissioner some 14 evidence about when you saw the police and Cecil Bernard 15 George. 16 And can you tell us about where you were 17 standing when you saw Cecil Bernard George in the sandy 18 parking lot and the police? 19 A: I would have been about in this -- 20 this area here across the fence. 21 Q: Were you on the Park side of the 22 fence or were you in the sandy parking lot side of the 23 fence? 24 A: I was in the Park. 25 Q: Okay. And what you're pointing to,
971 Mr. Doxtator, just for the record, is you're pointing to 2 -- it says, "Isaac Doxtator, Exhibit 17" and I believe in 3 this proceeding that it is P-92 and you've pointed to an 4 area inside the Park and I believe it's north of the 5 turnstile? Is that right? 6 A: Yes, yes. 7 Q: And can you show us where you saw the 8 police and Cecil Bernard George? 9 A: The police had this area covered in 10 here. Slippery went through the gate here and the police 11 were beating him over here somewhere. 12 Q: So just if I can assist, you were 13 pointing to an area somewhere about in the middle of the 14 sandy parking lot? About directly west of the turnstile? 15 A: Somewhere around here, yes. Right 16 here somewhere. 17 Q: Okay. And do you agree with me that 18 that's about thirty (30) feet away from where you were? 19 A: Yes, around there. 20 Q: Okay. And you said that police had, 21 I -- I'm not sure I had your language right, but control 22 over the area and you pointed to the area that was on the 23 sandy parking lot side of the fence and along the fence. 24 Were there a number of police along the 25 fence at the time that you saw other police with Cecil
981 Bernard George? 2 A: Yes, there was police officers up to 3 the fence. 4 Q: Okay. And were there a number of 5 police officers up along the fence? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And were there a number of police 8 officers between you and the police with Cecil Bernard 9 George? 10 A: Yes 11 Q: Okay. And I take it you'll agree 12 with me, at the time you didn't know who the police had? 13 A: Slip -- I knew who they had. 14 Q: Okay. Do you recall giving a 15 statement to the SIU on the 26th of September, 1997? 16 A: That's a long time ago. 17 Q: Right. Do you recall that? And I 18 believe you have that statement in front of you, Mr. 19 Doxtator. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And if you look at page 8 of that 22 statement -- oh sorry, page 7 of that statement. Are you 23 there? 24 A: Yeah, yes. 25 Q: You'll see that partway down the page
991 it says: 2 "Kennedy: Now they got custody of 3 Bernard George. Did they charge over 4 the top of him or how did they take 5 him? 6 Isaac: I don't know, with all the 7 scuffling going on, I just happened to 8 look up and I could see where the 9 police had a big -- like they were 10 surrounded somehow in a big circle and 11 I could hear, ahem, guys hollering, let 12 -- let him go, meaning Slippery. 13 Kennedy: Did you know Slippery at 14 that time or did you later -- learn 15 later on which one had been caught? 16 Isaac: Later on I learned it was him 17 that had been arrested." 18 I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. Doxtator 19 that at the time on September the 6th, you couldn't see 20 who the police had arrested. 21 A: I couldn't see who they were -- 22 arrested but he was the one (1) that went out there and 23 got beaten and dragged away. 24 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 25 you at the time that Cecil Bernard George was being
1001 arrested by the police, you were also occupied fighting 2 with the police. 3 A: When they dragged him away every -- 4 they all went back. 5 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. 6 Doxtator, that when Cecil Bernard George was being 7 arrested by the police, that you were also fighting with 8 the police at the time. Do you agree with that? 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Objection, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 12 sorry. Yes, Mr. Scullion? 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I would just ask 14 that -- this witness testified as to when he saw Mr. 15 George out in the area when he was grabbed and pulled 16 back. There seems to be a distinction between arrest and 17 when he's being beaten. 18 Perhaps we can clarify when he was 19 actually arrested for the benefit of the witness who's 20 testified as to what he saw and what he knew. She's now 21 specifying when he was arrested, you were doing certain 22 things. We don't seem to be clear as to what point and 23 time this arrest actually occurred. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
1011 Q: Well let me see if I can give some 2 assistance here, Mr. Doxtator. You'll see on page 7 3 which was the page that I had just taken you to in your 4 statement, you had talked about hap -- first of all it 5 says: 6 "I don't know with all the scuffling 7 going on, ahem, I just happened to look 8 up and I could see where the police had 9 a big -- like they were surrounded 10 somehow in a big circle." 11 And I take it when you looked up and you 12 saw the police had a big -- they were surrounded somehow 13 in a big circle, that you were in the middle of fighting 14 with the police at the time? Is that right? 15 A: In the middle of what? 16 Q: In your statement to the SIU, you say 17 I -- you were asked a question about when they got 18 custody of Bernard George, did they charge over the top 19 of him or how did they take him. The question is, when 20 the police took Cecil Bernard George and your answer was: 21 "I don't know, with all the scuffling 22 going on, I just happened to look up 23 and I could see where the police had a 24 big -- like they were surrounded 25 somehow in a big circle."
1021 And you said that at that time you could 2 hear guys hollering, "Let -- let him go". Do you recall 3 that? 4 A: I believe so, yeah. 5 Q: And I'm just suggesting to you at 6 that time, you were in the middle of fighting with the 7 police yourself. 8 A: I could have been. 9 Q: Yeah. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And you told the Commission, I think 14 similarly, last week, that when Cecil Bernard George was 15 being taken down the road to the paddy wagon, that you 16 couldn't see him because there were too many people. 17 Isn't that right? 18 A: I'm not that sharp, but I could see 19 them dragging somebody away and down the road, running -- 20 a bunch of police. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: And people going after -- trying to 23 get -- rescue him. 24 Q: Okay. And you had given some 25 evidence about a bus coming out of the Park and a car
1031 coming out of the Park. And I wanted to ask you some 2 questions about that. 3 Because my understanding was that you had 4 told the Commissioner that during the second skirmish 5 that the bus left the Park and got stuck in the sand. Do 6 you recall that? 7 A: I think, yeah, I believe I do. 8 Q: Okay. And you were also asked some 9 questions about when you first heard shots and I think 10 you told the Commissioner after the car got stuck. That 11 is, after the car had come out of the parking lot, you 12 heard three (3) shots fired. Do you recall that? 13 A: I believe so, yeah. 14 Q: Okay. And I wanted to ask you that, 15 because when you spoke to the SIU on October 12th, 1995, 16 and if you look on Page 11 of that statement, that's at 17 your Tab 2, page 11. 18 You were asked by the investigators about 19 when you heard a burst of three (3) shots whether it was 20 before the bus came out or after the bus came out. And 21 if you look at the bottom of the page, on Page 11, you'll 22 see a -- questions and answers: 23 "Alan: You said you heard three (3), 24 a burst of three (3)" 25 Doxtator: "Hmm"
1041 "Alan: At first it was a burst of 2 three (3) shots?" 3 "Doxtator: Yes." 4 "Alan: Was that after the bus and the 5 car went out or before?" 6 "Doxtator: I would almost have to say 7 it was before the bus went out because 8 I think that's why they brought the bus 9 because I think that's when Dudley got 10 shot there, I think." 11 And then you go on: 12 "I don't know if it was before or 13 after. I can't say for sure". 14 And recalling that, Mr. Doxtator, does 15 that help you recall when the bus and the car came out? 16 Was it after the shots or before the shots? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: I can't say for sure, right now, 21 because it's been so long it was kind -- pretty 22 confusing. 23 Q: Sure. And do you remember testifying 24 at Ken Deane's trial? Yeah? 25 A: Yes.
1051 Q: And, you have before you, the 2 transcript of your evidence that you gave at Ken Deane's 3 trial. That's at Tab 3 of your book. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And if you turn to Page 87, and I 6 think in your version it might be 187, but I'm not sure. 7 A: One eighty-seven (187)? 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: Yeah, Page 187. 10 Q: You'll see about at Line 15: 11 "About that time -- and so would you be 12 looking forward when these bullets are 13 flying at you? Did you hear the bus 14 behind you when the bullets were coming 15 at you? 16 A: The bullets came first, I would 17 say. 18 Q: Did they stop when the bus came? 19 A: To the best of my recollection. 20 Q: Did the bullets stop and then the 21 bus come? 22 A: I can't remember." 23 And then there's another question and 24 answer and there's a question: 25 "Could the bus have gone out before the
1061 shots? 2 A: I don't know, I think it went out 3 after." 4 Do you recall that? Giving that evidence? 5 A: Like I said before, it was pretty 6 confusing. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: It's a long time ago. Everything. 9 Q: Okay. And do you also recall telling 10 the Judge that you thought the reason that the bus came 11 out of the Park was to stop the police from coming back 12 and to block them off more or less? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do recall that evidence? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And, Mr. Doxtator, behind you at P -- 17 I think it is -- 92 -- if you look right behind you, 18 there's a diagram of a document, I think, that you marked 19 during Ken Deane's trial and you'll see on -- 20 A: Which -- 21 Q: The top one. 22 A: Oh, okay. 23 Q: Yeah. And you'll see that along East 24 Parkway Drive, you drew a bus on an angle completely 25 blocking East Parkway Driveway. Do you see that?
1071 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I take it that's because when you 3 saw the bus, it was completely blocking the road? 4 A: The bus isn't that big to completely 5 block the road. 6 Q: Okay. Was the bus parked at an angle 7 across the road? 8 A: I would say the bus was parked like 9 this. 10 Q: Okay. You also -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 12 to try to describe the angle that he just -- 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: Okay. I'm sorry. For the record, it 16 -- from what I could see, you were holding an eagle 17 feather almost parallel -- 18 A: I could hold something different. 19 Q: -- in the middle of East Parkway 20 Drive, just about at the curve of the road, so that one 21 (1) -- 22 A: Like this. 23 Q: -- end of the bus looks like it's 24 along the ditch on the north side, is that right? 25 A: Yes.
1081 Q: And the back end of the bus, it looks 2 like, is entering into the roadway. Is that right? 3 A: It was like this. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: It wasn't across the road. 6 Q: Okay. Is that diagram that you -- 7 A: Maybe I made the -- 8 Q: -- drew for the Court inaccurate 9 then? 10 A: Well, at the time, I probably just 11 drew it quick. 12 Q: Well, I take it when you were at Ken 13 Deane's trial that you were being careful so that you 14 could tell the judge exactly -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- what you saw and what you did? 17 Isn't that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: But I don't think I -- the bus wasn't 21 across the road like you're saying, like straight across 22 the road. 23 Q: Not -- on an angle across the road 24 like you drew in your diagram? 25 A: Yes.
1091 Q: Okay. And you told the Commission 2 that you first heard a burst of three (3) shots fired? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Is that right? And could you tell 5 where the shots were coming from? 6 A: No, you can't tell. 7 Q: No. And, given your familiarity with 8 guns, could you tell what kind of guns the shots were -- 9 were fired from? 10 A: It sounded like a 223. 11 Q: Okay. And what was it about the 12 sound that made it sound like a 223? 13 A: It sounded like a 223. 14 Q: Okay. So it sounded like three (3) 15 shots were fired from a 223? 16 A: Three (3) 223 shots, yes. 17 Q: Okay. And then you said that there 18 was a second round of automatic gunfire? 19 A: Fully automatic, yes. 20 Q: Okay. And can you give us some idea 21 of about how many rounds you say were fired? 22 A: Maybe over a hundred (100). 23 Q: Okay. More than two hundred (200)? 24 A: Oh, I don't know. I said over a 25 hundred (100).
1101 Q: Okay. And you talked on Thursday 2 about when the police were retreating, you said the 3 police were running all over the roads and in the bushes. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Where did you see the police 6 retreating to? Can you tell us all the locations? 7 A: Yeah. They were running up the road 8 here, across the fence this way, like scared chickens, 9 everywhere. Anywhere they could. 10 Q: Just so -- you've just used your 11 eagle feather to -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- make a bunch of strokes along P-92 14 and I just want to see if I can put it in words. Did you 15 see police going down Army Camp Road? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Running down Army Camp Road? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Did you see police running across the 20 field that is sort of kitty corner to the sandy parking 21 lot bounded by East Parkway and Army Camp Road? 22 A: Over here? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Yes 25 Q: Did you see police running along East
1111 Parkway? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did you see police running north into 4 the cottage area that is -- 5 A: Yes 6 Q: -- northwest of the sandy parking 7 lot? 8 A: Yes. They were running everywhere. 9 Q: Okay. And you told the Commission on 10 -- last Thursday, that you saw a guy in the sand about 11 twenty-five (25) feet crouched down? You were talking 12 about seeing Dudley George. Do you recall that? 13 A: Pardon? 14 Q: You told the Commission last Thursday 15 that you saw a guy in the sand about twenty-five (25) 16 feet away crouched down. Do you recall that? 17 A: I believe I might have been crouched 18 down when I seen him. 19 Q: You were crouched down or he was 20 crouched down? 21 A: I don't know what the question was. 22 I'd have to -- 23 Q: When you first saw Dudley George at 24 the time you say he -- that you discovered he had been 25 shot --
1121 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- were you about twenty-five (25) 3 feet away from him? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Were you crouched down or was Dudley 6 George crouched down? 7 A: I was crouched down. 8 Q: You were crouched down? Was Dudley 9 George standing up? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you told the Commission that 12 Dudley had on a Redskins sweatshirt. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do you recall that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And are you very clear about that, 17 Mr. Doxtator? 18 A: I believe he had that on because -- I 19 thought he had on earlier. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Pretty sure he had that Redskins 22 sweatshirt on. 23 Q: Okay. Because I anticipate that we 24 will hear evidence that Dudley George had on two (2) t- 25 shirts. One was a black t-shirt and he had a blue t-
1131 shirt on top of that. 2 A: I don't know what he had underneath. 3 Q: Okay. And I take it you'll agree 4 with me, Mr. Doxtator, that during the period that you 5 were fighting with the police you didn't see Dudley 6 George during that period? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And I take it you agree that you 9 hadn't seen Dudley George for five (5) to ten (10) 10 minutes before you saw him and discovered that he had 11 been shot? 12 A: I don't know how many minutes it was. 13 Q: Okay. Well, at the trial of Ken 14 Deane, you gave some evidence to the judge and if you 15 look at your transcript on -- for me it's page 80 and for 16 you it may be 180. There is a question: 17 "Did you see Dudley George shortly 18 before the point that he had been hit 19 by a bullet? Did you see him five (5) 20 or ten (10) minutes before that, do you 21 recall?" 22 And your answer at that time was: 23 "Well, people were all over. It's hard 24 to say." 25 Do you agree with that today?
1141 A: Yeah, yeah. 2 Q: Yeah. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: A number of questions have been 7 asked, Mr. Doxtator, about the statement that you gave 8 the Commissioner last week that after the shooting you 9 saw about ten (10) guys in rubber, carrying weapons, 10 running towards the lake. 11 And I wasn't clear from the questions that 12 were asked or the answers that you gave, when you said 13 you saw about ten (10) guys in rubber, what you saw. 14 Can you help us understand today what that 15 means? 16 A: Like scuba gear. Rubber suits -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- wear them when you go in the 19 water, so you don't get cold. 20 Q: Okay. And at the time you saw these 21 -- about ten (10) guys, Mr. Doxtator, where were you 22 standing? 23 A: I jumped over the fence. I was over 24 in the Park on this side. 25 Q: And you're using your eagle feather
1151 to show that you are in the Park, north of the turnstile 2 and to the east of the poplar trees. Is that right? 3 A: There might be poplar trees here. 4 There were poplar trees here in the parking lot. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Right here. This parking lot and 7 they're -- 8 Q: Okay, and you're -- 9 A: The trees -- there's a line of trees 10 here and this is where I seen them running toward the 11 lake which is north. 12 Q: Okay. And you just used your hands 13 to show that there's an area to the east of the diagram 14 within the Park that you say is the parking lot? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Can you give us some idea about how 17 far that is away from where you were standing? How far 18 away were the ten (10) guys in rubber from where you were 19 standing in the Park? 20 A: I'm not sure of the distance from 21 this fence to the parking lot, but that's where they 22 were, whatever the distance is, in the parking lot. 23 Q: Okay. Can you give us some 24 estimation? Was it -- 25 A: Oh --
1161 Q: -- fifty (50) feet, a hundred (100) 2 feet, two hundred (200) feet? 3 A: Could be fifty (50) feet. 4 Q: Could be fifty (50) feet? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And, Mr. Doxtator, you've been asked 9 some questions again about what you saw, but in your 10 statement that you gave to the SIU on October the 12th, 11 1995, and that's at your Tab 2, Page 10, you describe the 12 people that you saw as: 13 "Having black clothing with no bright 14 shirts or nothing." 15 And I take it when you read that, and 16 approved the statement, and wrote on the bottom of the 17 statement that it was accurate, I take it if you had 18 disagreed with that statement that you would have said 19 something to the SIU? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: It's pretty confusing. It's a long 24 time ago and there was a lot of -- 25 Q: Sure.
1171 A: -- things happening. 2 Q: Sure. And you gave this statement to 3 the SIU quite close to the event. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And I'm just trying to find out 6 today, because today -- last Thursday, so far as I can 7 tell, was the first time you've ever said a word to 8 anyone that's been recorded that we've seen in this 9 proceeding, about men in rubber suits. 10 And I'm just wondering if you, on 11 reflection, think that's accurate or your description in 12 1995 that they were men wearing black clothing is more 13 accurate? 14 A: They looked pretty skintight clothing 15 if it was clothing they had on. That's why I said it 16 looked like rubber suits. 17 Q: Because it looked like the clothing 18 was fairly snug? It wasn't loose and flapping clothing 19 that you could see? 20 A: Yeah, it was tight, like the one- 21 piece outfit, whatever they had on. I figured it was a 22 rubber suit. They had a big ship parked out there. 23 Q: You believe that the men came from 24 the big ship? 25 A: Yeah.
1181 Q: Okay. And in the same statement that 2 you gave to the SIU, Mr. Doxtator, and that's on Page 12 3 of the statement, you'll see that you were asked some 4 questions by Mr. Allen about the period of time that you 5 were fighting and you'll see partway down the page 6 there's a question: 7 "Okay. Was he -- now, if we're looking 8 out at the Park and you say you were on 9 the right-hand side -- 10 Doxtator: Yeah. 11 On the extreme left-hand side, there's 12 a big mob there. You know, where the-- 13 Doxtator: Yeah. 14 Allen: To put the hole in the ground 15 there -- the dugout." 16 And I wanted to ask you a couple of 17 questions about the dugout, Mr. Doxtator. And I take it 18 when you were being asked questions and you answered 19 questions about the dugout, what you were referring to 20 was a dugout or dugouts on the south end of the sandy 21 parking lot, outside the Park. Is that right? 22 A: I'm not sure what area you're talking 23 about. 24 Q: Okay, maybe you can help me, then. 25 Can you -- can you show where the dugout was?
1191 A: What -- what dugout are you talking-- 2 Q: I'm -- I'm asking you, Mr. Doxtator. 3 You - because I read you a section from your statement to 4 the SIU. 5 A: Which one is it again? 6 Q: If you look at Tab 2 and you look at 7 Page 12. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: You'll see about halfway down the 10 page, there's a question: 11 "Allen: On the extreme left-hand 12 side, there's a big mob there. You 13 know, where the -- 14 Doxtator: Yeah. 15 Allen: To put the -- the hole in the 16 ground there -- the dugout." 17 I read that and it appeared to me that you 18 and Mr. Allen were talking about a hole in the ground, 19 the dugout. And what I'm asking you is, can you show us 20 on the document behind you, which I believe is P-92, 21 where the dugout was? 22 A: I'm trying to figure what the dugout 23 is right here, like -- 24 Q: Would you like to take a minute and 25 see if you can recall or --
1201 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 2 Zbogar...? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Perhaps reading the 4 page would give you -- if you look at in context, that 5 would help you a bit? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 7 an objection? 8 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I just have a comment. 9 The word "dugout" is not used by Mr. Doxtator, it's used 10 by Mr. Allen. Perhaps he -- Mr. Doxtator can be asked if 11 he knows what the dugout refers to before he's asked a 12 question about it. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you have 14 an objection, I think you should make it, otherwise, I 15 think we should let counsel cross-examine, unless 16 Counsel's being unfair and I'm not sure that you are. 17 You've established -- or you're trying to establish -- 18 what this document -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, I -- I -- I've 20 asked Mr. Doxtator, he said he's not sure. I've given 21 him a minute to look at the statement and see if -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 23 context -- 24 MS. KAREN JONES: -- reading what's 25 before and after helps him and maybe he can help us and
1211 maybe he can't, but I'll -- I'm happy to ask him the 2 question. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. It 4 looks, from the transcript, that you knew what the dugout 5 was when it was asked of you in the transcript. You 6 said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I think that's what Counsel's 7 trying to determine. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 THE WITNESS: I still don't know where 12 the dugout is. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: Okay, that's fine. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: In your statement to the SIU, Mr. 20 Doxtator, and I think you told the Commission a little 21 bit about it today, you said that after Dudley George was 22 shot, you and others looked for shell casings. 23 Is that right? 24 A: I went over there myself, I think, 25 after, but I think I asked some of the guys to look
1221 around. 2 Q: Sure. And was that later on in the 3 early morning of September the 7th, that is the same 4 night that Dudley George was shot? 5 A: No, it wasn't. It was not long after 6 before everybody left, dispersed, went up to the front or 7 whatever they done. 8 Q: Okay. And so when did you and other 9 people, in your version of events, look for casings? Was 10 it -- 11 A: Other people shortly after. 12 Q: When you say "shortly after" -- 13 A: After they murdered Dudley shortly 14 after that. 15 Q: Was it that night? Was it the next 16 day? Was it the next week? When was it? 17 A: It was that night and it was the -- 18 Q: That night? 19 A: -- day after and it might have been 20 three (3) or four (4) days later. Different times I know 21 that they were looking for shell casing and they found 22 them. 23 Q: So that night people were looking for 24 shell casings? The next day people were looking for 25 shell casings and three (3) or four (4) days later.
1231 Is that right? 2 A: Yes, yes. 3 Q: Okay. And did you, yourself, look 4 for shell casings? 5 A: Yeah, I walked around, looking. 6 Q: And where did you look for shell 7 casings? 8 A: Just in -- in -- in the corner here 9 on East Parkway in this general area right around here. 10 Q: And you're pointing at Exhibit P-92 11 and you're circling your finger around the bus that you 12 had drawn on East Parkway? 13 A: In the area. 14 Q: In that area. 15 A: The guys were walking up and down the 16 roads around the fences -- 17 Q: Then you -- 18 A: Wherever -- wherever they figured 19 that a sniper could be hiding, they were looking. 20 Q: Okay. So you've shown people going 21 down East Parkway, you've shown people in the corner of 22 East Parkway and Army Camp Road? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And were people also looking in the 25 sandy parking lot?
1241 A: Sandy parking lot? Which parking 2 lot? 3 Q: The parking lot that is the -- sorry, 4 the area north of Army Camp Road and west of the Park, 5 where you have marked on that document yourself and 6 Dudley George. That's the area that people have been 7 referring to as the sandy parking lot. 8 A: Yes -- 9 Q: Were you aware of that? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Yeah, they looked around all over in 14 this area. 15 Q: And you're using your hand to show 16 that people looked all over the sandy parking lot and 17 East Parkway Drive, is that right? 18 A: Yes, on -- on the corner of Army Camp 19 Road. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: And East Parkway Drive in the area. 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: Corner. 24 Q: And I take it that a number of people 25 looked on a number of occasions in that area, is that
1251 right? 2 A: Yes, probably when I wasn't even 3 there they were looking. 4 Q: Okay. And did you, yourself, find 5 casings? 6 A: I'm not sure. But I had -- I ended 7 up with two (2) or three (3), I think somebody give them 8 to me to hold onto. 9 Q: And did you see what kind of casings 10 they were that you were given to hold onto? 11 A: I think I told you, AR-15 or 12 something, 223 shell casings. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: 9mm and a 40 calibre. 15 Q: Okay. And you gave some evidence to 16 the Commission this morning, Mr. Doxtator, that a crew 17 took pictures of the command post area? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Who took those pictures? 20 A: I don't know. There was a group of 21 people that got all this evidence put together. 22 Q: Who showed the pictures to you? 23 A: I can't say. They were on the table. 24 I just looked at them. 25 Q: So you have no idea?
1261 A: No. 2 Q: And you don't know when they were 3 taken? 4 A: When they found them in the command 5 post -- 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: -- that the OPPs had set up in the 8 bush. 9 Q: Sure. Okay. And I don't have any 10 other questions for you, Mr. Doxtator. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then we'll 12 have your associate. What's that? Thank you very much. 13 Ms. McAleer...? 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 16 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Doxtator. My 17 name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm one of the Counsel 18 acting for former Premier, Mike Harris. I only have one 19 (1) quick area that I'd like to ask you some questions 20 on. 21 You indicated to Ms. Jones that there were 22 all kinds of scanners in the Park. Do you recall 23 informing Ms. Jones of that? 24 A: There was a few, I guess, around. 25 Q: And -- and when you say a few, you
1271 mean that there were scanners in the Park in addition to 2 those that Cecil Bernard George brought into the Park? 3 A: People might have had CB's and stuff 4 in their vehicles or -- but there was a lot of radios, 5 yeah. 6 Q: Okay. Do you recall at any point in 7 time on either September 5th or September 6th, 8 overhearing any discussion about a possible injunction? 9 A: I heard people talking about it. 10 Q: Okay. What did you hear people 11 saying? 12 A: I'm not sure. I just remember 13 hearing them talking about it. 14 Q: Well, who was talking about it? 15 A: I can't say, I don't remember, just 16 people standing around. 17 Q: Okay. Those were people who were 18 occupiers in the Provincial Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And do you recall if they were 21 talking about it on September 5th or on September 6th? 22 A: I'm not sure, I can't remember. 23 Q: Okay. Well what was their reaction 24 to the possibility of there being an injunction? 25 A: Pardon? Say that again.
1281 Q: You -- you say you heard them talking 2 about it, you don't recall what they were saying or who 3 was speaking, but can you tell us a little bit about 4 their reaction to the possibility of there being an 5 injunction? 6 A: People were just sitting around. 7 Q: Is it fair to say, Mr. Doxtator, that 8 people were not particularly concerned about the 9 possibility of an injunction? 10 A: I can't say what other people were 11 thinking. 12 Q: Did anybody voice any concern to you 13 about the possibility of an injunction? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Thank you, Mr. Doxtator, those are 16 all my questions. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. Mr. Scullion, do you have any questions? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Sorry, Mr. 23 Commissioner. I'm just adjusting our maps. Thank you, 24 Mr. Commissioner. 25
1291 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 2 Q: Ms. Jones had asked you a few 3 questions simply on where people were looking for 4 casings. And you had used your eagle feather to show an 5 area that was then described and I thought a little 6 inaccurately and I thought that perhaps you could take 7 Exhibit P-91 which is behind you there and simply circle 8 the area that you saw people looking for casings after 9 Dudley was shot. 10 I think that's the pen you've been using. 11 Just the approximate area that you saw people looking for 12 casings. If you could mark that number 7. So we have a 13 circle with a number 7 in the area that you saw people 14 looking for casings on Exhibit P-91. Thank you. 15 Ms. Tuck-Jackson asked you a question if - 16 - I'm hoping I get the wording exactly correct, but she 17 said the only time the police asked you to relocate over 18 the course of those two (2) days which was September 5 19 and 6, was the time when you were in the sandy parking 20 lot. Do you remember being asked that question? 21 A: Yes 22 Q: And you had answered in the 23 affirmative to that question? And presumably we're 24 dealing with the time that you were on the picnic table 25 and their request for you to relocate was emphasized by
1301 driving a police car into the picnic table you were 2 sitting on. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did the police ever tell you at that 5 point in time that you would be safe if you simply went 6 behind the fence? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did they ever tell you if you set 9 foot in that parking lot again they were going to come 10 down the street in riot gear? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did they ever tell you they'd -- if 13 you came out in that parking lot again that they'd have 14 to take further measures to remove you from the parking 15 lot? 16 A: Yes, I think so. 17 Q: What measures did they tell you they 18 were going to use? 19 A: They said we would be arrested and 20 charged with trespassing. 21 Q: Not that you'd be beaten up and shot? 22 A: No, they didn't tell us they were 23 going to shoot us. 24 Q: Okay, thank you, Mr. Doxtator. Those 25 are all my questions, Mr. Commissioner.
1311 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 Ms. Vella...? 3 4 RE-DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: Just very briefly, Mr. Doxtator, Ms. 6 Jones asked you about an incident on the Oneida Reserve 7 in Ontario. My understanding is that the Oneida Nation 8 has reserve territory in both Ontario and the United 9 States. Is that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And is it in Michigan? 12 A: Wisconsin and New York State. 13 Q: Okay, thank you very much. Now, are 14 you familiar with an incident which involved a bingo hall 15 being burned down to the ground? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And did you participate in that 18 incident? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. It was also suggested to 21 you that the Jewel brothers, that is, Russ and Les Jewel, 22 when -- you -- you were asked, when did they -- all 23 right. All right, just before -- for further 24 clarification on the Oneida incident, where -- where -- 25 which resort -- Reserve territory did that incident take
1321 place on? 2 A: New York State. 3 Q: Thank you very much. All right. 4 Now, with respect to Russ and Les Jewel, it was suggested 5 to you that they came back to Ipperwash in or around the 6 summer of 1995, and just to ensure that we all 7 understand, were they from the Ipperwash area? 8 A: No. 9 Q: In the summer of 1995, do you know 10 where their home base was? 11 A: I believe they were living in 12 Detroit, Michigan. 13 Q: Thank you very much. Those are all 14 my questions, Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I suppose 18 that's it for Mr. Doxtator? 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's correct. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much, Mr. Doxtator. Thank you for coming and giving 22 us your evidence. I think you're finished and you can 23 leave. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
1331 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 2 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I 4 wonder if we might just take the afternoon break at this 5 time and we'll then -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Decide where 7 we are? 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- proceed with the 9 next witness. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine, it's 11 now twenty-five (25) after; we'll take a fifteen (15) 12 minute recess. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 15 for fifteen (15) minutes. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 3:25 p.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 3:41 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission calls as 23 its next witness, Gabriel James Doxtator. 24 25 GABRIEL JAMES DOXTATOR, Sworn
1341 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Good afternoon. 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: I want to thank you for coming this 5 afternoon because we thought we weren't going to get to 6 you until tomorrow -- 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: -- so I appreciate you being able to 9 accommodate our schedule. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Now, I understand that your date of 12 birth is April the 7th, 1976? 13 A: Yes, that's true. 14 Q: And are you sometimes also known as 15 Gabe? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you have any other nicknames? 18 A: No, that's it. 19 Q: And where's your current residence? 20 A: I'm living on the Oneida settlement. 21 Q: All right. And are you a member of 22 the Oneida First Nation? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: I understand that your parents' names 25 were Patricia and Enoch Doxtator?
1351 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that they are both deceased? 3 A: My father is, my mother's still 4 alive. 5 Q: Oh. Thank you very much. Now do you 6 have to your knowledge and ancestral connections to the 7 former residence of the -- what was the Stony Point 8 Reserve? 9 A: Well, I believe in my traditional 10 beliefs that we were all one people at one (1) point. So 11 I do believe that we have ancestral -- 12 Q: Do you have any relatives currently 13 living at Aazhoodena? 14 A: I got a cousin that's living there 15 right now. 16 Q: And who is that? 17 A: Darryl Ireland. 18 Q: Darryl? 19 A: Ireland. 20 Q: Ireland, thank you. Now back in 21 1995, you would have been about nineteen (19)? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And at that time were you a member of 24 an association called the Oneida Warrior Society? 25 A: Yes.
1361 Q: And are they also sometimes known as 2 The Peacekeepers? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: When did you join that society? 5 A: I was born into it; that's the way we 6 believe. 7 Q: Can you explain to the Commission 8 what you mean by or how it goes that one is born into a 9 warrior society? 10 A: Well, a man has a position in his 11 community where he's suppose to look after the people, 12 the Elders and the younger generation that's coming. So 13 that's the position that you get as soon as you're born. 14 You're born a warrior. 15 Q: And when do you take on the 16 responsibilities of a warrior? 17 A: When you feel you're ready to. 18 Q: And by the time that you were 19 nineteen (19) years old, had you assumed those 20 responsibilities? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And have you been a member of that 23 Warrior Society ever since? 24 A: Yes, I have 25 Q: To your knowledge do the members of
1371 the Oneida Warrior Society lend support from time to time 2 to First Nations outside of the Iroquois Confederacy of 3 the Oneida Nation? 4 A: Yes, we do. 5 Q: And are you familiar with what 6 process or decision making process is gone through when 7 determining what First Nations you will help and how? 8 A: It goes through the traditional 9 council to see if the help there is needed or required 10 and if it is, then we'll go and lend our assistance. 11 Q: And when you say traditional council, 12 is that something distinct from the Band Council, Federal 13 Government Council? 14 A: No. That's not traditional. 15 Q: So it's different? 16 A: Yeah, yeah. 17 Q: Okay. And who is -- how does one 18 obtain a position on the traditional council? 19 A: It's -- I think it all runs 20 hereditary, like, they're born into it. 21 Q: Is there also a role for the Clan 22 Mothers? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And are they part of the traditional 25 council or is it a separate body?
1381 A: They're the ones that we get our 2 guidance from. 3 Q: And you being? 4 A: They're the ones that are the boss 5 and tells us what to do. 6 Q: Okay. I understand that there were - 7 - were the three (3) -- are there three (3) clans at 8 Oneida? 9 A: Yes. Yes, there is. Turtle, Bear 10 and Wolf. 11 Q: All right. And what clan do you 12 belong to? 13 A: Turtle. 14 Q: Can you tell me what the 15 responsibilities or the main responsibility of the Turtle 16 clan is that's distinct from the other two (2) clans? 17 A: I'm not really too sure. I'm still 18 kind of learning myself of my responsibilities. 19 Q: Thank you. Prior to September of 20 1995, and prior to the efforts of the Stony Point people, 21 were you involved in any Aboriginal protests or 22 demonstrations as a warrior at Oneida? 23 A: Not really. This is my first one 24 (1). 25 Q: Now prior to 1995, did you have any
1391 experience in handling any type of assault weapon? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: Hunting rifles, I grew up with them. 5 Q: Okay. And as of September 1995 had 6 you any experience in handling assault weapons? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you have any formal or informal 9 military training as of September of 1995? 10 A: No. 11 Q: I understand that you have no 12 convictions as an adult for events which occurred at or 13 prior to September the 6th of 1995. Is that correct? 14 A: What does that mean? 15 Q: That you have not been convicted in 16 adult Court of any crime for any events -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- up to and including September the 19 6th, 1995. 20 A: No. 21 Q: No, that's not correct? 22 A: I don't believe I have any -- 23 Q: Oh, you don't -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: That is correct?
1401 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Thank you. Now you did indicate that 3 you had some experience in handling rifles -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Can you -- can advise me first of 6 all, when you handled your first gun? 7 A: I was about maybe eleven (11) or 8 twelve (12) years old. 9 Q: And what was the context of your 10 handling a gun? What was the purpose of that? 11 A: I was hunting. 12 Q: Okay. Can you tell me what -- what 13 firearms you used to hunt with when you were young -- a 14 young boy? 15 A: I was just using a .22 calibre at the 16 time. 17 Q: .22 calibre rifle? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And what types of things would 20 you hunt with that? 21 A: Mostly racoon and rabbits. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: When did you first learn about the
1411 efforts of certain individuals from the Kettle and Stoney 2 Point Band to reclaim the lands that were occupied by the 3 Ipperwash Army camp? 4 A: I believe it was 1993. 5 Q: And how is it that you came to learn 6 about those efforts? 7 A: I met a guy by the name of Glenn 8 George and he start telling me of this story about what 9 happened down there and how the lands were taken. 10 Q: How did you meet Glenn George? 11 A: He was a friend of Bucks. 12 Q: That would be Buck Doxtator? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And are you related to him? 15 A: Yes, he's my cousin. 16 Q: Thank you. All right. And as a 17 result of conversations with Glenn George, did you -- did 18 you visit the Army camp lands in 1993? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And how frequently did you visit 21 those lands? 22 A: I visited a few times. I don't know 23 how frequently it was. 24 Q: Okay. Were you part of the initial 25 group who walked into the Army camp lands in May of 1993?
1421 A: No, I wasn't. 2 Q: All right. So it's fair to say that 3 your status was as a visitor? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And what would the 6 purpose of your visits be? 7 A: Hunting and fishing. 8 Q: And so did you hunt on the Camp 9 Ipperwash lands in 1993? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And what kind of guns would you use 12 to hunt with? 13 A: 30-30 or .303. 14 Q: And a 30-30? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Or a .303? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay, can you just tell me what the 19 capability of a 30-30 is? 20 A: I don't know, it knocks deer down. 21 Q: Is it a -- 22 A: I don't know. 23 Q: Sorry? 24 A: It knocks deer down, that's all I 25 know.
1431 Q: It's a deer gun? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Is it a rifle? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you know if it's semi-automatic or 6 automatic or -- 7 A: It's lever action. 8 Q: Lever? 9 A: Lever action. 10 Q: Action? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: So does that mean you have to click 13 at the -- well, tell me how you -- 14 A: You got to load it after every shot. 15 Q: Okay. And you know what the range of 16 that rifle is? 17 A: A mile, maybe. 18 Q: And what ammunition would you use, 19 typically, in that rifle? 20 A: Hunting rounds. 21 Q: What type of ammunition is that? 22 A: Soft tip 30-30 shells. 23 Q: Okay, soft tip 30-30 shells? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And can you tell me, in the
1441 same terms, what is a .303? 2 A: It's -- was a gun that the British 3 Army used, I don't know. 4 Q: Is it a rifle? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: Is it a manual action or -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- a semi-automatic? 9 A: Manual. 10 Q: Manual? And what is its range? 11 A: It's about the same as a 30-30. 12 Q: About one (1) mile? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And what type of ammunition did you 15 usually -- typically use with it? 16 A: Same thing. 17 Q: 30-30 soft tip? 18 A: Well, .303 -- it's a different size 19 bullet. 20 Q: Okay, .303 bullet? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And what types of animals did 23 you typically hunt with a .303? 24 A: Just deer. 25 Q: Deer?
1451 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. Now, when you visited the Army 3 Camp lands in 1993, did you sleep over at any time? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And where did you typically sleep 6 over? 7 A: Either over at Dudley's trailer or I 8 guess there was another guy I used to stay with. 9 Q: And who's the other guy? 10 A: Kevin Simon. 11 Q: Kevin Simon? Okay. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And where did you meet Dudley George? 14 A: He came down with Glenn George one 15 (1) time to visit. That's the first time I met him. 16 Q: To visit where? 17 A: Down on Oneida. 18 Q: At Oneida? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And approximately -- can you 21 tell me -- was this 1993 or -- 22 A: Yeah, I believe it was '93. 23 Q: Okay. Now, do you know, did Dudley 24 George and Glenn George visit Oneida from time to time 25 then, in '93?
1461 A: Yes. Yes they did. 2 Q: And do you know what the purpose of 3 their visits were? 4 A: Communication to let everybody know 5 what's going on through the communities. 6 Q: And when you say, "To let everyone 7 know what was going on," were they reporting to the 8 traditional council in relation to the occupation of Camp 9 Ipperwash lands? 10 A: No, it's just -- just letting us know 11 what they -- what they were doing, you know, like -- 12 because we're like brothers, you know. 13 Q: Okay. But in relation to the ongoing 14 occupation of the Camp Ipperwash lands? 15 A: Yes, yes. 16 Q: All right. Now, in 1993, did you -- 17 were you present at the sacred fire that was going for a 18 while at the Camp Ipperwash lands? 19 A: No, I don't believe I was there. 20 Q: Okay. Were you present at the 21 burying the hatchet ceremony? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did you participate in any 24 traditional activities whenever you visited on the Camp 25 Ipperwash lands?
1471 A: No, I haven't. 2 Q: Okay. Now, can you tell me what the 3 purpose of your visits to the Camp Ipperwash lands were 4 in 1993? 5 A: Fishing and hunting. 6 Q: Okay. Was it also to lend your 7 support to the efforts of the individuals who were 8 occupying the land? 9 A: If they needed it. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I would. 12 Q: Well, did they need it from time to 13 time? 14 A: No, they pretty much had everything 15 covered. 16 Q: Okay. How well did you get to know 17 Dudley George? 18 A: I got to know him pretty good over 19 the years from '93 to '95. 20 Q: All right. And you said you stayed 21 with him in his trailer from time to time? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: What kind of activities, if any, did 24 you typically do with Dudley George? 25 A: Sat around and talked and told jokes,
1481 you know. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: Play cards, you know, whatever. 4 Q: Did you ever have discussions with 5 Dudley George about what -- what his vision, if any, was 6 in relation to the Camp Ipperwash lands or why he was 7 there? 8 A: He always talked about making a 9 little house there down beside the Inland Lakes and he 10 was always telling us how much he like that place, you 11 know. 12 Q: So -- 13 A: How it was -- how it was a good place 14 to -- you know, to be. Just a good feeling when he was 15 there. 16 Q: Did he ever tell you why it was he 17 decided to move onto those lands? 18 A: No, he hasn't, no. 19 Q: Did you ever hunt and fish with 20 Dudley George on the Camp Ipperwash lands? 21 A: Yeah. Yes, I did. 22 Q: All right. To your knowledge, did 23 Dudley George possess a gun that he used for hunting 24 while he was on the Camp Ipperwash lands? 25 A: He might have. I don't know, I can't
1491 really say. 2 Q: Okay. Do you know what the -- was 3 there a typical type of gun that he would use when he 4 hunted with you? 5 A: Usually the same guns that we were 6 using -- hunting rifles. 7 Q: Like a .22 calibre or .303? 8 A: 30-30 or .303, yeah. 9 Q: Okay. Did you ever see him with an 10 assault weapon of any kind? 11 A: No, I haven't. 12 Q: Or with a semi-automatic or automatic 13 firearm of any kind? 14 A: No. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Did you continue to visit the Camp 19 Ipperwash lands in 1994? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And how would you compare the 22 frequency of your visits in 1994 as compared with 1993? 23 A: I went there a little bit more than I 24 did in '93. 25 Q: A little bit more?
1501 A: Yeah, yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And is there a particular 3 reason why you visited the lands more often in 1994? 4 A: I just got more interested in what 5 they were doing down there. 6 Q: Okay. And just tell us to the best 7 of your ability, what your perception was of what they 8 were doing there in '94? 9 A: I felt that they were doing good, 10 doing what they was -- what they were supposed to do. 11 Get their lands back and whatever. 12 Q: Okay. Did you continue to hunt and 13 fish when you would visit the Camp Ipperwash lands in 14 '94? 15 A: Yes. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And did you engage in any type of 20 patrols with any of the occupants in and around the -- 21 the parameters of Camp Ipperwash lands? 22 A: A few times. 23 Q: Okay. And do you know what the 24 purpose of those patrols were? 25 A: Just to keep people out --
1511 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- that weren't supposed to be there. 3 Q: And did you ever have any personal 4 interactions with either the military personnel or the 5 Ontario Provincial Police while you were visiting the 6 Camp Ipperwash lands? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. And did you witness any such 9 interactions with other occupants and either the military 10 or the OPP? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. Were you present in August of 13 1994, the evening that a helicopter was reportedly shot 14 at? 15 A: No, I wasn't. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Excuse me, 1993. Thank you. That 20 was in August of '93. Were you there then? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. And in 1994 did you continue 23 to stay with Dudley George from time to time in his 24 trailer? 25 A: When?
1521 Q: In '94? 2 A: '94, yes. 3 Q: Okay. And who else -- and also -- 4 with who else did you stay with? 5 A: Kevin Simon. 6 Q: Okay. And moving on then, to 1995, 7 again did you visit the Camp Ipperwash lands during the 8 course of 1995, and I'm thinking up to and including July 9 of '95? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And as compared with 12 1994, what was the frequency of those visits? 13 A: It was every once in a while, after 14 that, you know, but not too much. 15 Q: Not too much after a while? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Why is that? 18 A: I don't know. We just never went 19 down there as much. I went down there after they went 20 into the barracks and I think that was the last time 21 until -- since September the -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- that I was down there. 24 Q: Okay. Now just before we get to the 25 event of -- the barracks, did you continue to hunt from
1531 time to time on the Camp Ipperwash lands in 1995? 2 A: Not at that time. I was just mostly 3 fishing at that point. 4 Q: Okay. Did you have any encounters 5 with either members of the military or the OPP involving 6 the Camp Ipperwash lands during that time period? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. All right. Let's move 9 then to July the 29th of 1995. We've heard testimony 10 that that is the day that the occupants entered the 11 barracks or built up area of the Camp Ipperwash. 12 Were you present when that occupation 13 began? 14 A: No, I wasn't. A few days later I -- 15 I got there. 16 Q: Okay. And how did you learn about 17 the occupation of the barracks? 18 A: On the news. 19 Q: And were you -- what was your 20 reaction when you heard that the occupants had moved into 21 the barracks? 22 A: I thought it was good. 23 Q: Why did you think it was good? 24 A: Because they were taking further 25 steps of getting their lands back.
1541 Q: All right. Had you any advance 2 notice that this was going to happen; that -- that they 3 were going into the barracks? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. Not even in a general 6 way? 7 A: No. I knew it was going to happen 8 some time but I didn't know when. 9 Q: Okay. Now when you say you knew it 10 was going to happen some time, who did you learn that 11 from? 12 A: I just knew it was going to happen. 13 Q: How did you know that? 14 A: I don't know. I can't say how I know 15 things. It's just -- they come to me. 16 Q: Was it something that you assumed 17 would likely happen? Or is something that you were told 18 was going to happen? 19 A: No. It's just something that I knew. 20 I can't explain how I know things. It's just -- things 21 come to me. 22 Q: Okay. When you say that things come 23 to you, can you just help me with what you mean by that? 24 A: I get visions and see things before 25 things happen.
1551 Q: Now you indicated that you entered 2 the barracks -- was it a couple or a few days after the 3 initial takeover? 4 A: After. After they took it over. 5 Q: How many days, do you know? 6 A: I'm not sure how many days it was. 7 Q: Okay. Do you think it was in August? 8 A: It might have been in August. 9 Q: Likely early August? 10 A: I'm not sure. 11 Q: Okay. And what was the purpose of 12 you going to the barracks? 13 A: Just to see what was going on. 14 Q: Okay. Were you asked for support as 15 a warrior in relation to the occupation of the barracks? 16 A: No, I wasn't. 17 Q: All right. Did you receive any 18 direction from the traditional council in relation to 19 your going to the barracks? 20 A: No, I was just going to visit. 21 Q: All right. So when you visited, were 22 you visiting in your capacity as a warrior or in some 23 other capacity? 24 A: Out of friendship, that's why I was 25 visiting.
1561 Q: Okay. And how long did you stay at 2 the barracks? 3 A: I believe I just stayed overnight. 4 Q: Who did you stay with? 5 A: I believe I stayed at Glenn George's 6 that night. 7 Q: Okay. And did you continue to visit 8 the barracks between August and September the 3rd of 9 1995? 10 A: Not between there, no. 11 Q: So you only went for one (1) 12 overnight visit to the barracks during that time frame? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And during that one night 15 overnight visit, did you see anyone with any types of 16 hunting rifles or hunting guns of any kind? 17 A: No 18 Q: Did you see any assault weapons of 19 any kind at the barracks when you were there? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you witness or were you part of 22 any interactions with either the military or members of 23 the Ontario Provincial Police? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did anyone try to stop you from
1571 entering the barracks? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did anyone tell you that you were 4 trespassing or that you should not go to the barracks? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Where did you return to after -- 7 after staying overnight at the barracks? 8 A: Back to Oneida. 9 Q: All right. And is this basically -- 10 this is where you were living at this time frame? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Did you come to learn that the Park, 13 the Ipperwash Provincial Park, was going to be taken over 14 by the occupants of the barracks? 15 A: No. 16 Q: You had no advance notice of that? 17 A: No, I haven't. 18 Q: All right. When did you first learn 19 of the occupation of the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 20 A: I believe we were watching the news 21 and we seen it on there. 22 Q: And do you recall which day you saw 23 the news of it? 24 A: I believe it was the 4th. 25 Q: And that would be Monday, September
1581 the 4th, 1995? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And was that, to your understanding 4 the first day of the occupation of the Park? 5 A: I think so. 6 Q: All right. And once you learned of 7 the Park occupation, what was your reaction? 8 A: I was just happy for them that 9 they're still doing -- they're fighting for what they 10 believe in. 11 Q: All right. And did you have any 12 understanding as to why the group moved to occupy the 13 Park as opposed to the Camp Ipperwash lands? 14 A: What is -- what do you mean by that? 15 Q: Do you -- do you know what the 16 motivation or what the reason was for occupying the Park? 17 Did you learn of that? 18 A: Yeah, there was a burial ground. I 19 learned that later. 20 Q: Okay. You learned that later? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. And when did you -- when 23 did you learn of that? 24 A: After we got here. 25 Q: After you got to the Park?
1591 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Who did you learn that from? 3 A: I believe Glenn George told me. 4 Q: Okay. All right. Did you attend at 5 the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 6 A: Attend? 7 Q: Did you go to it? Did you go to the 8 Park? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. When did you first go to the 11 Park? 12 A: I believe it was on the 4th, but 13 everybody say that we got there on the 5th, so I don't 14 know. I'm kind of mixed up on my days, here. 15 Q: Okay. Well, we can only ask you what 16 -- for what you recollect. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And is it your recollection today 19 that you arrived on Monday, September the 4th? 20 A: Yeah, that's what I believe, yeah. 21 Q: All right. And do you recall 22 approximately what time of day you arrived at the Park? 23 A: Just before dark. 24 Q: Okay. And help me out with -- with 25 what time frame that would be. When was it getting dark?
1601 A: I don't know, it's -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- can't say because it's been a long 4 time. 5 Q: Okay, fair -- 6 A: -- and things change. 7 Q: -- fair enough. It's early 8 September, though? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And it's before the sun sets? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Do you recall who you arrived at the 13 Park with? 14 A: Yeah, I travelled down with Larry 15 French, Buck Doxtator, Chuck George, and Alan (phonetic) 16 George. 17 Q: Do you recall whose vehicle you 18 travelled in? 19 A: It was Larry French's. 20 Q: And what was he driving at that time? 21 A: A brown Dodge pickup. 22 Q: And I under -- can you tell me what 23 First Nations Chuck George and Al George were from? 24 A: From Oneida Settlement. 25 Q: And how about Larry French?
1611 A: He's from the Chippewa Band. 2 Q: Chippewa of the Thames? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And Buck Doxtator is from your 5 settlement? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Now, when you arrived in the 8 vicinity of the Park, where -- where did you first enter? 9 A: Through the maintenance shed. There 10 was a driveway that goes by the maintenance shed and we 11 came through there. 12 Q: Okay, now I should -- I should back 13 up. Did you first go to the Army Camp? 14 A: Yes, we did. 15 Q: Okay. And when you approached the 16 Army Camp, did you approach the main gate of the Army 17 Camp -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- approximately at the intersection 20 of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. When you arrived, what 23 did you see? 24 A: There was a police blockade. 25 Q: Can you describe what it is you mean
1621 by "a police blockade"? 2 A: They had the road blocked off so that 3 nobody could pass and they were asking peoples' names and 4 everything before they let them go through. 5 Q: All right and was the -- what road 6 was the blockade set up on? 7 A: On Army Camp Road. 8 Q: And was -- were the police blocking 9 passage to Army Camp Road or to the Army Camp or both? 10 A: Army Camp Road, I guess. They had it 11 blocked off right at the corner; we couldn't even get to 12 the main gate of the barracks. 13 Q: Okay, so the blockade was, in fact, 14 just south of the main gate? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. Did you eventually enter the 17 Army Camp through its main gate? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Did you have to go through a police 20 blockade or check? 21 A: They stopped us and asked us for our 22 names and we decided we were just going to walk in. 23 Q: Did you give your name to the police 24 officers? 25 A: I can't remember if I did or not.
1631 Q: Do you recall whether you showed them 2 any identification? 3 A: I didn't have no identification. 4 Q: All right. Did you carry anything 5 with you into the Army Camp? Any bags or anything like 6 that? 7 A: A bag of clothes. 8 Q: All right. And did the police ask 9 you to -- if they could look in your bag? 10 A: I can't remember if they did or not. 11 Q: Okay. Can you recall whether, in 12 fact, they looked in your bag? 13 A: I don't think they did, no. 14 Q: And you indicated that you just 15 walked in. Did you walk through the main Army Camp gate? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Did you bring your bag with you? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. Did the police officers 20 or any police officer try to stop you from going into the 21 Camp? 22 A: They told us to stop, but we just 23 kept walking. 24 Q: Okay. And did they give you any 25 reason for telling you to stop?
1641 A: I didn't see any reason. 2 Q: But did they tell you or give you a 3 reason? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And when you proceeded to walk into 6 the gate, was there any warning issued to you of any kind 7 by a police officer? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Was there any further incident with 10 the police as you walked through the gate? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. And what happened to the 13 truck? 14 A: They had them stop at the gate. They 15 wouldn't let him through because -- something about 16 didn't have the proper papers or something. 17 Q: Okay. And that was Larry French? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Did he ultimately join you in the 20 Army camp? 21 A: Yeah, later on he came in. 22 Q: Do you know whether he had his truck 23 with him? 24 A: Yes, he had his truck. 25 Q: Okay. And did Buck and Chuck and Al
1651 also, did they walk through the Army gate with you? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: You recall whether they had any bags? 4 A: I believe we all had bags with 5 clothes. 6 Q: Okay. When you walked into Army 7 camp, what was the first thing you did? 8 A: I think we went to see Glenn George. 9 Q: And was he there? 10 A: No, we had to look for him. 11 Q: Did you find him? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Where did you find him? 14 A: They told us that we'd find him down 15 at the Park. 16 Q: Did you then proceed down to the 17 Park? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And by what mode of -- of 20 transportation? 21 A: We went in Larry French's truck. 22 Q: Right. And can you just tell me the 23 route that you took from the Army camp into the Park? 24 A: There is a road that go -- goes 25 alongside Army Camp Road and we travelled that road down
1661 to the Park. 2 Q: Right. So this is, as I understand 3 it, it's a road that parallels Army Camp Road but it's 4 inside the Army camp? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I think you said that you entered 7 the road that went by the maintenance shed in the Park? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And were there any barriers to you 10 entering the Park? 11 A: No. 12 Q: As you rode in the truck along the 13 road, did you see any police presence along Army Camp 14 Road? 15 A: They were all up along Army Camp 16 Road. 17 Q: Okay. And when you say they were all 18 up, were they in cars? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And were there any police officers on 21 foot? 22 A: Yeah, there were a few standing 23 around out there, too. 24 Q: And did any of those police officers 25 try to communicate with you, to your knowledge?
1671 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. Did you try to communicate 3 with them? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did you have any incident going into 6 the Park? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Right. And what was your reaction 9 when you saw the number of police along Army Camp Road? 10 A: Well, we was wondering why they 11 needed all the police. 12 Q: And once you entered the Park, then, 13 did you -- firstly, did you participate in any 14 traditional ceremonies? 15 A: I believe we smudged as soon as we 16 got down there. 17 Q: All right. Did you find Glenn 18 George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Did you have a conversation with him? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell me, to the best of 23 your recollection, what that conversation was about? 24 A: Just about the taking of the Park and 25 about the burial grounds that are beneath the Park;
1681 that's pretty much all we talked about. 2 Q: Okay. Did he happen to point out to 3 you where those burial grounds were? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And what significance, if any, did 6 the fact that there were reportedly burial grounds at the 7 Park have for you? 8 A: Well, what do you mean? 9 Q: Well, was that relevant, do you 10 think, to you, to the occupation of the Park? 11 A: Yeah, yeah. 12 Q: Why? 13 A: Because we have respect for our dead 14 -- as much as when they're dead as they were when they 15 were alive, so we won't go and have picnics on them. 16 Q: And did you participate in any 17 traditional ceremonies in relation to the burial grounds? 18 A: I can't remember. 19 Q: Okay. On September the 4th of 1995, 20 do you recall approximately how long you personally 21 stayed in the Park? 22 A: Until the early morning hours. 23 Q: Does that mean sometime after 24 midnight? 25 A: Yes.
1691 Q: All right. And what were your 2 activities at the Park? 3 A: Just sitting around and talking, 4 drinking coffee. 5 Q: All right. Did you see any 6 consumption of alcohol or drugs in the Park on September 7 the 4th? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. Were you aware of any or did 10 you observe anyone who appeared to have the effects of 11 intoxication? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did you bring any alcohol or drugs 14 into the Park? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you see anyone with any type of 17 firearm in the Park on that day? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And did you bring any firearms into 20 the Park yourself? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Or into the Camp? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. Did you have any 25 discussions with Glenn George or others on the 4th about
1701 the propriety of either -- of having alcohol in the Park? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you have any conversations with 4 him or others about the propriety of having firearms in 5 the Park? 6 A: He said that there was going to be no 7 firearms and it was going to be a peaceful demonstration. 8 Q: And who said that to you? 9 A: Glenn George. 10 Q: And when did he say that to you? 11 A: When we got there. 12 Q: Now, why would he make that statement 13 to you? Was there a question from you or -- or your -- 14 your friends about firearms? 15 A: No. It was just something that he 16 came out and said that there's not going to be no 17 firearms there. 18 Q: And did you take issue with that 19 statement? 20 A: Take issue, like what do you mean? 21 Q: Were you concerned about that 22 decision? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you have any consultations with 25 your traditional council in advance of you entering the
1711 Park about the fact that you were going to go down to the 2 Park? 3 A: I didn't even know I was going. 4 Q: What do you mean? 5 A: It was just -- we seen it on the news 6 and we thought we'd go down there and see what was going 7 on. 8 Q: Sure. And -- so you knew you were 9 going to the Park, didn't you? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: So did you have any discussions or 12 were you given any directions from the traditional 13 council with respect to your intentions to go the Park? 14 A: I can't remember if we did or not. 15 Q: All right. Did you consider -- was 16 one (1) of the reasons why you attended at the Park to 17 lend your support to the people at the Park? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And did you consider that to be one 20 of your responsibilities as a warrior? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: On Monday, September the 4th, did you 23 witness any forms of police surveillance at the Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Can you tell me what you witnessed?
1721 A: They had a police boat out on the 2 lake and there was helicopters flying around. 3 Q: Do you recall how many helicopters 4 you saw in total that day? 5 A: I seen one (1) but I believe it came 6 by a few times. 7 Q: Okay. And can you describe the 8 helicopter for us? 9 A: It was a big and yellow one (1). 10 Q: And what led you to believe that it 11 was conducting surveillance? 12 A: It had some kind of big thing 13 sticking out of the side of it. 14 Q: A big thing sticking out? 15 A: Like a big round cylinder. I don't 16 know, I've never seen one (1) on a helicopter before. 17 Q: Okay. Do you know how -- how high 18 the helicopter was flying over you? 19 A: Just over the tree tops. 20 Q: And on Monday, September the 4th did 21 you -- did you throw any rocks at this helicopter? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did you see others throw rocks at 24 this helicopter? 25 A: No.
1731 Q: Did you witness anyone using any kind 2 of firecrackers on September the 4th at the Park? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Did you witness anyone using any type 5 of strobe lights or flares? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you witness any incident 8 involving Roderick George, also known as Judas George, 9 and the OPP? 10 A: I don't recall, no. 11 Q: Were you ever advised by either a 12 police officer or any government official that you should 13 leave the Park on Monday, September the 4th? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Were you advised that you were 16 trespassing? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Were you a party to any conversation 19 or did you overhear any conversation in which that 20 message was being delivered? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you witness any encounters as 23 between the Park occupants and members of the Ontario 24 Provincial Police that evening? 25 A: What's that?
1741 Q: Did you witness any interactions 2 between the OPP and any Park occupants that evening? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Approximately how many people were 5 inside the Park on average while you were there on 6 September the 4th? 7 A: Maybe twenty (20) or thirty (30) 8 people. 9 Q: And did that involve women and 10 children as well? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: As well as men obviously? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Now did anyone, to your knowledge, 15 have any type of radio scanner at the Park on September 16 the 4th? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Now, we've heard testimony 19 from Isaac Doxtator that you arrived with him at the Park 20 on September the 5th, which would have been the day 21 before Dudley George was shot. 22 Now would that testimony alter your 23 recollection in any way? 24 A: Well that's where I'm kind of stuck 25 'cause I'm not sure what area -- what day for sure that
1751 we came. 2 Q: Okay. Does it continue to be your 3 position that it was the 4th, likely? 4 A: From what I remember, it was the 4th, 5 yeah. 6 Q: All right. Did you -- I'm sorry. 7 Okay. I thought you were going to say something. 8 A: No. 9 Q: Excuse me. You left the Park 10 sometime after midnight. Where did you go? 11 A: I went and stayed at Glenn George's. 12 Q: And that would be at the Army 13 barracks? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And at any time during 16 the course of that evening, did you hear any gunshots 17 either in the Army camp or the Park? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did you hear anything that resembled 20 gunshots that night? 21 A: No. 22 Q: To your knowledge, was anyone hunting 23 that night? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Were you involved in night hunting
1761 from time to time? 2 A: Maybe a few times, yeah. 3 Q: Now, are you aware as to whether, 4 therefore, there was night hunting at the Army camp from 5 time to time, by the occupants? 6 A: Not at that time there wasn't. 7 Q: You mean not that date? 8 A: No. 9 Q: But earlier? 10 A: Maybe before that, like, a couple of 11 months before but not -- not at that point. 12 Q: Let me ask you something. Is there a 13 -- a typical hunting season that -- that you -- you would 14 go hunting? 15 A: Well me, I go hunting usually from 16 October to -- to December. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: From time to time, though, would you 20 hunt in the summer or in September? 21 A: Yeah, if you -- if you want to eat 22 the meat then, yeah, you can get it then, too. 23 Q: Okay. On Tuesday, September the 5th 24 in 1995, that's the day before Dudley George was shot -- 25 A: Hmm hmm.
1771 Q: -- you awoke at Glenn George's house? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And how long did you stay in the Army 4 camp that -- that morning? 5 A: Maybe an hour or so. Long enough to 6 have breakfast and then we headed back to the Park. 7 Q: Okay. And did you return to the Park 8 thereafter? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And approximately what time did you 11 arrive? 12 A: I'm not really sure what time it was. 13 Q: Was it the morning? 14 A: Yes, it was the morning, though. I 15 remember -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- that much. 18 Q: Again, by what mode of transportation 19 did you take to get to the Park? 20 A: We all went down in Larry's truck, 21 Larry French. 22 Q: Okay. And when you say "we all," who 23 -- who else went with you? 24 A: The same ones that went -- went down 25 there with us.
1781 Q: So Al George, and Chuck George and -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And Isaac Doxtator -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And Larry French? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And yourself? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. Did you take the same route 10 into the Park? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you observe any police 13 presence on your way down to the Park that morning? 14 A: Yeah, they were still all up and down 15 Army Camp Road. 16 Q: How long did you stay in the Park on 17 Tuesday, September the 5th? 18 A: I believe till after midnight. 19 Q: Approximately how many people were in 20 the Park, on average, that day? 21 A: About the same. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: Twenty (20) or thirty (30) people. 24 Q: Was it a similar composition of 25 people?
1791 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And were there members, aside from 3 yourself and the other individuals you've told us, were 4 there other individuals from First Nations other than 5 Kettle and Stony Point at the Park that day? 6 A: There might have been. 7 Q: Do you -- 8 A: I didn't really know too many people 9 at that point. 10 Q: Okay. Did you take -- were you 11 involved in any kind of activities which were aimed at 12 ensuring the security of the Park? 13 A: Like what? 14 Q: Like participating in any patrols or 15 manning any checkpoints or posts -- 16 A: No, no, I never done none of that, 17 no. 18 Q: No? Did you do any of that at all 19 over the course of the three (3) days you were there? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you observe others taking part in 22 those activities? 23 A: Yes, I believe that they were. 24 Q: Okay. So why weren't you involved in 25 any of those activities?
1801 A: I don't know. There was something 2 that they had to do. 3 Q: Something that the -- 4 A: The Stoney Pointers had to do. 5 Q: Okay. Did you observe any police 6 presence in and around the Park that day? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Can you tell me relative to the day 9 before, what types of presence the police had? 10 A: Walking around there with assault 11 rifles dressed in full camo gear, like they were ready 12 for a war or something. 13 Q: Now, when you say they had assault 14 rifles, are you able to tell me what kind of assault 15 rifles you saw? 16 A: I seen a AR-15 mounted with a night 17 scope. 18 Q: Can you tell me what a AR-15 is? 19 A: It's -- looks similar to an M-16 20 military rifle. 21 Q: Is it automatic or semi-automatic? 22 A: Semi-automatic. 23 Q: Okay. And you say that they were in 24 full camouflage gear? 25 A: Yeah.
1811 Q: Can you be a little more specific and 2 tell me what they were wearing? 3 A: They -- they had green clothes on and 4 body armour and not normal police, you know. They were 5 there for something. 6 Q: Okay. Did you see any police 7 officers in, what I'll call day gear or normal gear? 8 A: What's that? 9 Q: Did you see any police officers who 10 were in more traditional gear in the sense of -- 11 A: No. They were all wearing the same 12 thing. 13 Q: Okay. And where were these officers 14 relative to the Park? 15 A: They were in the sandy parking lot. 16 Q: In the sandy parking lot? 17 A: Yeah. Just outside the gate. 18 Q: And when did you witness them there? 19 A: They were coming up there 20 periodically all day. 21 Q: All right. Did you witness any 22 attempts by the police to have communications with any of 23 the Park occupants that day? 24 A: The only communication that they were 25 having with us was calling us names and whatever else.
1821 Q: Did you actually hear any police 2 officers direct derogatory names at you? 3 A: Not at me, but at the other people. 4 Q: All right. And what types of names 5 did you hear? 6 A: I'd rather not say. 7 Q: Can you characterize them for me? 8 A: Well, you know what people say about 9 us Indians all the time, you know. Pretty much all the 10 same. 11 Q: All right. And did that cause any 12 reaction by the Park occupants? 13 A: Not really, it's only words. 14 Q: To your knowledge, was there any 15 attempt by the police or by government officials to serve 16 you with any papers of any kind? 17 A: I've never seen any, no. 18 Q: During the course of the day were you 19 advised to leave the Park? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Were you advised that you were 22 trespassing? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Were you advised to stay in the Park? 25 A: No.
1831 Q: Based on your observations, was there 2 free access in and out of the Park from an external 3 route, not the Army Camp route, but an external route? 4 A: I don't know. I don't know if there 5 was or not. 6 Q: You didn't try to leave the Park? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. Except to go to the Army Camp? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And did you travel back and forth to 11 the Army Camp during the course of the day? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And what was the purpose of those 14 trips back and forth? 15 A: I'm not sure, just -- just to drive 16 around, I guess. 17 Q: All right. Were you engaged in any 18 efforts to -- to make the police think that there were 19 more people in the Park than there really were? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Were you involved in any car chases 22 with the "OPP Who" car -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: -- involved? 25 A: No.
1841 Q: Okay. Did you witness any police 2 surveillance during the course of Tuesday? 3 A: The same as it was every other day. 4 Q: So a police boat? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Helicopter? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And did you see also patrols around 9 the Park? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Am I missing anything? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. What kinds of activities 14 were the Park occupants engaged in that you saw that day? 15 A: Like what do you mean by 16 "activities"? 17 Q: What were you doing? 18 A: Just sitting around, you know. 19 Q: Just sitting around all day? 20 A: Yeah, sit -- sitting around talking, 21 you know, telling stories. 22 Q: Were there any discussions on Tuesday 23 that you were part of that talked about any plans by the 24 occupants to defend themselves? 25 A: We didn't feel that we needed it, we
1851 were just there to prove a point. 2 Q: All right. So does that mean there 3 weren't any discussions of which you were aware? 4 A: We never thought that they were going 5 to come in trying to kill us, so we never -- never knew. 6 Q: Did you see anyone in the Park or 7 Army camp on Tuesday with firearms of any kind? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And did you hear anything, or did you 10 hear any gunshots that day or night? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did you hear anything that would or 13 could resemble gunshots? 14 A: No. 15 Q: On Tuesday, did you witness anyone 16 lighting off firecrackers of any type? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you witness anyone lighting 19 either strobe lights or flares of any kind? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You indicated that you saw a 22 helicopter. Did you see anyone throw rocks at this 23 helicopter on Tuesday? 24 A: No. 25
1861 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Do you recall seeing any police 4 officers on any type of what you assumed to be 5 reconnaissance missions or tactics that day? 6 A: Well, yeah, I seen them trying to 7 sneak around in the grass across from the Park there -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- all morning. 10 Q: Can you tell me, when you say "across 11 in the grass", can you tell me where? 12 A: Near the cottages. 13 Q: All right. So if we were to look at 14 the map behind you, which is a diagram of Army Camp Road 15 and East Parkway Drive, the intersection -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And the sandy parking lot, you'll see 18 on the right is the fence line for the Park? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Can you show me where you saw police 21 officers crawling in the grass. 22 A: Right in this area here. 23 Q: All right. And for the record, are 24 you pointing to the border between the -- the sandy 25 parking lot or the road access there and the cottages on
1871 the west side -- to the west of the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Over at the cottages? 4 A: Yeah, just along here. 5 Q: Right. And where -- what time of day 6 did you see that? 7 A: I believe it was morning. 8 Q: Morning? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And did that -- witnessing that 11 sighting, did that cause you any concern? 12 A: Not really, I figured they were just 13 there to try to scare us. 14 Q: All right. Did you or others make 15 any reaction to the police? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. Did you see any or 18 witness any direct interactions or encounters involving 19 Dudley George and any members of the Ontario Provincial 20 Police on Tuesday? 21 A: I never heard any but I was told 22 afterwards of some interactions that were made. 23 Q: Okay. But you did not witness those? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. Can you just tell me who told
1881 you about that? 2 A: I believe Dudley told me that 3 himself. 4 Q: Okay. Can you tell me then, what it 5 was that Dudley George told you happened on Tuesday, 6 September the 5th. 7 A: Just said that he was going to be the 8 first to get it or whatever. 9 Q: And did he suggest to you who -- who 10 reportedly made that statement to him? 11 A: No. I don't know -- I can't say who 12 it was. They were all dressed the same. 13 Q: Okay. But was it an occupant? Did 14 he say? Was it a Park occupant who said that to him? 15 A: No. It was one of the police 16 officers. 17 Q: All right. But you just can't tell 18 us the name of the police officer? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. Did he tell you anything 21 else? Did he tell you what the -- what actually 22 happened, what the context of the occurrence was? 23 A: I don't know, just -- that's all I 24 was told, was that -- what they told him. 25 Q: And tell me again what it is the
1891 police reportedly said to him? 2 A: That he was going to get the first -- 3 get it first. 4 Q: Okay. Did Dudley George appear to 5 you to be concerned about the fact that this statement 6 was made to him? 7 A: He didn't seem like it, no. 8 Q: As a result of that -- that reported 9 statement, did you or others take any steps to improve or 10 upgrade the security measures around the Park? 11 A: No because we didn't think that 12 anything was going to happen. 13 Q: Were you -- were you present at any 14 incident involving picnic tables on Tuesday, September 15 the 5th? 16 A: Yeah, I seen that. 17 Q: And can you tell me approximately -- 18 well, tell me what you saw and approximately what time of 19 day you saw this? 20 A: It was at night time. 21 Q: And so it was dark? 22 A: Yeah. We piled a bunch of picnic 23 tables across the sandy parking lot outside of the Park. 24 And when we done that, we were all sitting along there 25 whatever and some police cars come up and started pushing
1901 the cars -- or the tables away. 2 Q: Okay. And can you tell me, firstly, 3 were you part of the group that transported picnic tables 4 out into the sandy parking lot? 5 A: Yeah, yeah. 6 Q: And just for the record, when we're 7 referring to the sandy parking lot, it's that area just 8 to the north of the intersection of Army Camp Road and 9 East Parkway Drive on the diagram behind you? 10 A: That's right in this area here. 11 Q: Okay. And perhaps, Commissioner, 12 before we go further, we should mark this diagram right 13 now as the next exhibit because I anticipate that we'll 14 be -- the witness will be marking it. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-93, Your Honour. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-93. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-93: Stan Thompson Drawing, Sept 20/95 19 marked by witness Mr. Gabriel 20 Doxtator on November 29th/2004 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: All right. Approximately how many 24 picnic tables were out in the sandy parking lot area? 25 A: Maybe four (4) or five (5).
1911 Q: And can you tell me why you chose to 2 bring picnic tables out into the sandy parking lot area? 3 A: I believe it was to keep the police 4 from coming in there every five (5) minutes and harassing 5 us. 6 Q: And can you recall who else was 7 present at this incident with the police cars? 8 A: There was myself, Buck and a young 9 fellow named J.T. 10 Q: All right. Do you know whether there 11 was anyone else there? 12 A: There was -- yeah, a few people 13 there. 14 Q: Okay. Can you recall their names? 15 A: No, I can't, not right now. 16 Q: And was there a bonfire on at this 17 time around -- in the sandy parking lot area? 18 A: Not that I recall, no. 19 Q: And you indicated that some police 20 cars came and approached the picnic tables, can you tell 21 me, firstly, what were you doing when the police cars 22 first approached the picnic tables? 23 A: I was standing there. Standing 24 behind the picnic tables. 25 Q: And can you tell me approximately how
1921 many cars approached the picnic tables? 2 A: There was three (3) cars that I seen. 3 Q: All right. And what formation did 4 the police cars take when they approached the picnic 5 tables? 6 A: There was one (1) car in the middle 7 and one (1) on each side of the middle car. 8 Q: And was the middle car parallel with 9 the other two (2) cars? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And how fast were the cars 12 approaching the picnic table initially? 13 A: Well they come speeding up a few 14 times acting like they were going to hit it but they 15 never. But the last time they bumped into the table and 16 started pushing it. 17 Q: Okay. Prior to that, did any police 18 officer direct any comments to you? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did the police officer not tell you 21 to get back into the Park? 22 A: Not that I heard. 23 Q: All right. And you said that they 24 accelerated a couple of times -- 25 A: Yeah.
1931 Q: -- approached the picnic tables but 2 didn't make contact initially? 3 A: No. 4 Q: So just help me out. Were they 5 approaching the picnic table and then backing up? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And they did this two (2) times? 8 A: A few times, yeah. 9 Q: A few times? 10 A: Yeah, yeah. 11 Q: And what was your reaction as they 12 were engaged in this process? 13 A: I don't know what they were trying to 14 do, intimidate us or something. 15 Q: All right. But what did you do? 16 A: I didn't do nothing. 17 Q: All right. And when -- did any of 18 the police cars make contact with any of the picnic 19 tables? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And how many picnic tables were made 22 contact with? 23 A: I believe one (1). 24 Q: And how many cars made contact with 25 that picnic table?
1941 A: Just the middle car. 2 Q: All right. What formation were the 3 picnic tables in that night? 4 A: I believe we had them piled on top of 5 one another, like in a row. 6 Q: All right. Well, were they stacked 7 on one another or were they -- 8 A: Yeah. They were just stacked on one 9 another. 10 Q: Stacked, okay. And when the police 11 car made contact with the picnic table, was there anyone 12 on or around that picnic table? 13 A: Yes, Buck and J.T. were sitting on 14 the picnic table. 15 Q: And which side of the picnic table 16 were they sitting on; the -- the cruiser side or the lake 17 side? 18 A: The cruiser side. 19 Q: All right. And did they move when 20 the -- when the picnic table was struck? 21 A: Well, yeah, they had to move or else 22 get hit. 23 Q: All right. To your knowledge, were 24 they hit? 25 A: I don't know if they got hit or not.
1951 Q: Okay. And what happened next after 2 the police car made contact with the picnic table? 3 A: They tried to push the table but it 4 started getting stuck, so, it started revving its gas up 5 and then that caused the picnic table to land on the 6 hood. After that we just picked it up and threw it right 7 on the police car. 8 Q: Okay. So, just so I understand, you 9 and Buck and were there others who -- who got behind the 10 picnic table? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And pushed it against the force of 13 the car? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And ultimately you and others heaved 16 the picnic table -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- onto the roof -- sorry, the hood 19 of the car? 20 A: Onto the windshield, I believe. 21 Q: Onto the wind -- and did it crack the 22 windshield? 23 A: I think so. 24 Q: All right. And what did the cruisers 25 do then?
1961 A: They left. 2 Q: Okay. And did they come back shortly 3 thereafter? 4 A: I'm not sure if they did or not. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I left the Park shortly after that. 7 Q: All right. Now, just so I 8 understand, the picnic that was made contact with by a 9 police cruiser, was there another table stacked on it at 10 the time? 11 A: I don't believe there was one at that 12 one. 13 Q: Okay. And did -- did other Park 14 occupants come to see what was going on during this 15 event? 16 A: I don't -- I don't think there was 17 too many people down there that night. 18 Q: Okay. Were any rocks thrown at the 19 cars as they departed that you -- 20 A: Could have been. 21 Q: Okay. Did you throw any rocks? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Were there any verbal exchanges at 24 all between the police and any of the Park occupants 25 during the course of this event?
1971 A: No. 2 Q: Did any other incidents of note occur 3 on Tuesday, September the 5th involving the OPP and Park 4 occupants, to your recollection? 5 A: I'm not sure right now, I'm still 6 trying to remember things. 7 Q: All right. How long did you stay in 8 the Park that day? 9 A: Not as long as I did the other 10 nights. I kind of went back to Glenn's early that night. 11 Q: All right. Do you know approximately 12 how much -- how long after the picnic table incident you 13 left the Park? 14 A: A few hours maybe? 15 Q: All right. Do you think it was 16 before or after midnight? 17 A: I'm not sure, I wasn't really keeping 18 track of time. 19 Q: Okay, and when you returned to the 20 Army Camp, how did you return? 21 A: With Larry French. 22 Q: In his truck? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And did others come with you back to 25 the Army Camp?
1981 A: I think some people came back, some 2 people stayed. 3 Q: All right. When you returned to the 4 Army Camp that evening, did you see any firearms at all 5 in the Army Camp? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And did you hear any gunshots or 8 anything that might have sounded like gunshots that 9 night? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Now, this Inquiry may hear evidence 12 of reports of gunshots being heard in and around the Army 13 Camp or the Park that night. 14 If that evidence came forward, would that 15 alter you recollection in any way? 16 A: No. 17 Q: To your knowledge, were there any 18 efforts to -- made by the police or the Park occupants to 19 negotiate a resolution to this occupation on Tuesday, 20 September the 5th? 21 A: I didn't see anything. 22 Q: All right. To your knowledge, was 23 there a willingness on the part of the Park occupants to 24 negotiate a resolution to this situation with the police 25 or government officials?
1991 A: I don't know. I don't know. 2 Q: That's not something that you -- you 3 would have been privy to? 4 A: It wasn't really for me to be hearing 5 anyways. It's -- it was up to the Stoney Point people to 6 do that. 7 Q: So, as I understand as you're 8 describing this to me, your role there was really to -- 9 to be a support, a -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- physical presence? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: But it was not to make any decisions? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: Did you observe anyone in the Park on 16 Tuesday consuming alcohol or drugs? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you observe anyone in the Park 19 that day who appeared to be under the effects of 20 intoxication? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you witness any other 23 interactions as between Park occupants and police 24 officers on Tuesday, other than what you have described 25 for us?
2001 A: No. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 6 wondering if -- I will be entering into the September the 7 6th and I know we're a little bit early but I'm wondering 8 if we might just break at ten to 5:00 today and resume 9 tomorrow, fresh? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 How much longer do you think you might be? Just an 12 estimate. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: You're not supposed to 14 ask me that question. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 16 all right, I just -- 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It might as well be on 18 the public record, 'cause everyone will ask me anyways, 19 after. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, you 21 think -- you're going a little faster, I think, than you 22 thought you might. So I'm just wondering how much longer 23 you might be. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, I expect probably 25 tomorrow we'll be delving into September 6th in a little
2011 more detail than I've been delving into the other days, 2 so, I would think about two (2) hours. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 Okay, then this seems like a good time to break. It is 5 ten to 5:00. We will adjourn now until tomorrow morning 6 at ten o'clock. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 8 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday November 30th at 10:00 9 a.m. 10 11 --- Upon adjourning at 4:50 p.m. 12 13 14 15 Certified Correct, 16 17 18 19 20 ________________ 21 Dustin Warnock 22 23 24 25