1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 25th, 2004 25


1 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-law 12 13 14 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 15 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 16 17 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 18 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) (np) 25 Sue Freeborn ) (np)


1 Maureen Smith ) 2 3 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 4 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 5 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 6 7 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 8 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 9 Jennifer McAleer ) 10 11 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 12 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 13 14 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 15 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 16 17 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 18 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 19 20 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 22 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 23 24 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 25 Karen Jones ) Police Association &


1 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 2 Ian McGilp ) (np) 3 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 4 5 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 6 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 7 Julian Roy ) (np) 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) 18 19 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 20 Anna Perschy ) 21 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 22 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 23 24 25


1 2 3 TABLE OF CONTENTS 4 PAGE NO. 5 6 Exhibits 6 7 8 RODERICK GEORGE, Resumed 9 Continued Cross-Examination by 10 Mr. Peter Downard 7 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. David Sulman 33 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 37 13 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 72 14 15 ISAAC CHARLES DOXTATOR, Sworn 16 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 76 17 18 Certificate of Transcript 228 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 2 3 EXHIBITS 4 No. Description Page No. 5 P-91 Stan Thompson Drawing 190 6 Sept 20/95 Marked By Witness 7 Mr. Isaac Doxtator 8 November 25/04 9 P-92 Stan Thompson Drawing 220 10 Sept 20/95 Exhibit 17 on top 11 Right Corner Of Exhibit, April 2/97, 12 R. vs Ken Deane Trial Marked By 13 Witness Mr. Isaac Doxtator 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 2 3 --- Upon commencing at 9:14 a.m. 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 6 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 7 presiding. Please be seated. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 Morning. 10 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Good Morning. 11 12 RODERICK GEORGE, Resumed: 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, 15 Mr. George. 16 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Good morning, Mr. 17 George. 18 MR. RODERICK GEORGE: Good morning. 19 20 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 21 Q: At -- at the outset I'd simply like 22 to note for the record that there is evidence given in 23 the course of the Inquiry by the historical expert Joan 24 Holms on September 8th at pages 22 and 23 of the 25 transcript, that in 1994 the Department of National


1 Defence finally agreed to return the Army Camp to the 2 First Nations people. At least in principle. 3 And you will recall, sir, that yesterday 4 in the course of your examination by Ms. Jones for the 5 OPPA she told you that she anticipated we'd evidence that 6 in 1994 a general agreement had been reached between the 7 Federal Government and the Kettle and Stony Point Band 8 about turning the Base back to the Band. And you said 9 that you heard it on the radio. Do you recall that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. So I take it that it's 12 been your understanding for about ten (10) years now that 13 the Federal Government has, at least as a general matter, 14 agreed to return the former Army Camp to First Nations 15 people. 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Now I take it, as well, that looking 18 back at 1995, in 1995 you understood that under the 19 Federal Indian Act, and I believe we touched on this 20 yesterday, under the Federal Indian Act the Kettle and 21 Stony Point Band is the entity or organization that's 22 legally recognized as represented in the interest of both 23 the First Nations people with historical ties to Kettle 24 Point and the First Nations people with historical ties 25 to Stony Point. You understood that in 1995, right.


1 A: Yes, as far as recognition goes, yes 2 it's correct. 3 Q: And I take it you understood in 1995 4 that under that process in place under the Federal Indian 5 Act the Kettle and Stony Point Band was the body with 6 whom any negotiations over the return of the Stony Point 7 lands to First Nations people should take place? 8 A: Can you say that again, please? 9 Q: Yeah. I take it you understood in 10 1995 that under the -- the Federal Indian Act and from 11 the perspective of that Federal Law, the First Nations 12 body with whom negotiations by the Federal Government 13 over the return of the Stony Point lands, the First 14 Nations people should take place, was the Kettle and 15 Stony Point Band? 16 A: Not so much as should take place but 17 I was aware of that fact, yes. 18 Q: That -- that was -- that was the 19 legal arrangement in place? 20 A: At the time, yes and it is still is 21 today, I believe. 22 Q: Right. And you -- you said yesterday 23 that from your perspective the Kettle and Stony Point 24 Bands should not be involved in those negotiations for 25 the return of the Stony Point lands, right?


1 A: That -- that legal entity, yes. 2 Q: And that was your -- I beg your 3 pardon, sir? 4 A: That entity, yes. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: That you spoke of, yeah. 7 Q: Right. And that was your view in 8 1995 and it's your view today, right? 9 A: Yes, it is. 10 Q: And your view is that only Stony 11 Point people should be negotiating with the Federal 12 Government for the return of those lands? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And that was your view in 1995 and 15 today? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. So, as far as you are 18 concerned, the fact that the -- the legal situation in 19 place was that it was only the Kettle and Stony Point 20 Band that should be negotiating for the first -- for the 21 First Nations people didn't matter? 22 A: Yes, it mattered to a certain degree, 23 yes. 24 Q: Okay, in what respect did it matter? 25 A: There are people that have rights to


1 the Stony Point land that's in that Band list as well. 2 Q: Okay. All right. But that didn't 3 affect your view as to who should be doing the 4 negotiating? 5 A: Not really. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And what I'd like to understand is, 10 why was your view in 1995 that the Kettle and Stony Point 11 Band shouldn't negotiate the return of the lands on 12 behalf of both people with ties to Kettle Point and 13 people with ties to Stony Point? 14 A: Why they shouldn't? 15 Q: Why -- why did you object to the 16 Kettle and Stony Point Band negotiating for the return of 17 the lands on behalf of First Nations people from both 18 locations? 19 A: Because I knew in the treaty that 20 there was set aside four (4) or maybe five (5) entities 21 at that time. And those entities were to be unceded 22 territory and it still exists today. 23 Q: Okay. And other reasons apart from 24 the treaty? 25 A: Well, we had law. We just say it, I


1 don't know how to say it. Legal right to the land. More 2 so then the Kettle Point Band. 3 Q: Any other reasons that you recall 4 now? 5 A: No, that's it. 6 Q: I beg your pardon, sir? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Thank you. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: So, is it the case, and I believe you 13 indicated this yesterday, but I -- I want to clarify it 14 again. I take it, it was the case that in 1995 numerous 15 other occupiers shared the view that you've stated on 16 these matters? 17 A: I think that -- yeah, it was a 18 consensus that people had. 19 Q: And does that remain the consensus 20 today? 21 A: Yes, it does. 22 Q: So, isn't it the case that as long as 23 the Kettle and Stony Point Band is the only negotiator 24 recognized by the Federal Government for the return of 25 these lands and the people occupying and controlling the


1 Stony Point lands don't accept that the Kettle and Stony 2 Point Band has a right to negotiate a deal of the 3 occupiers can accept, can't be produced, right? 4 A: I don't know what you're asking. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'll ask you 6 -- just before you answer the question, Mr. Henderson has 7 an objection. 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I think, 9 Commissioner, we're getting past the point where we're 10 talking about views and opinions and motivations, if you 11 wish, as of 1995 and now we're talking about claims 12 negotiations today, which I think we have agreed 13 previously is beyond the purview of the Commission's 14 mandate. 15 What happens today or who ought to be 16 involved is obviously something to be worked out by the 17 parties. But with great respect, sir, not before the 18 Commission. 19 MR. PETER DOWNARD: With -- with respect, 20 sir, what this Commission is mandated to look into is to 21 look into the circumstances surrounding the -- the death 22 of -- of Dudley George. And the Commission has obviously 23 acknowledged the importance of the underlying historical 24 issues. 25 And in -- in my submission, the underlying


1 difficulties between the groups of First Nations people 2 at Kettle Point or in -- in the Indian Act Band and -- 3 and the Occupiers have materially contributed to the 4 situation. 5 In 1995 they gave rise to the occupation 6 and one (1) of the fundamental roles of this Commission 7 is to try to find a way forward in -- in this particular 8 case as -- as well as for the purpose of other cases. 9 And what I've been trying to -- to get at here is that 10 there seems to have been an inability of -- and I'm -- 11 I'm going to ask the -- the Witnesses straight up. 12 There seems to have been an inability of 13 the Kettle and Stony Point Band under the Indian Act and 14 the -- the Stony Point Occupiers to work together to try 15 to solve these problems. And it's -- and what I intend 16 to just ask the Witness is whether there's been any 17 progress -- essentially that this -- this prevented a 18 deal from being -- an acceptable deal to the Occupiers 19 being made in 1995 and continues to prevent it today. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 21 you answer any questions, we have to sort this out. Mr. 22 Ross, did you want to say something too? Or did you want 23 to add anything? Let's hear from Mr. Ross and then Mr. 24 Henderson. 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well, there are two


1 (2) things -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 3 obviously touched a nerve here and we have to hear what 4 people have -- 5 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, I -- I may not 6 need the answers now, actually. 7 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well, you'll be -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it's 9 just a question of how far you're going to go on that 10 right now. We know that that's an issue that's been 11 underlying here and how far you're going to go with that 12 right now. 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well, if he doesn't 14 need the answers, then I don't have to worry about what I 15 had to say, Mr. Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Then 17 let's move on, then. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 22 Q: And, sir, you were referring earlier 23 to I -- I believe to -- to Stony Point people who aren't 24 actually occupying the -- the former Army Camp lands, 25 right?


1 A: I was -- I was referring to them in - 2 - in which manner? 3 Q: Well, let me put it this way, I -- I 4 take that -- that when you talk about the Stony Point 5 people, you're talking not only about the people who are 6 actually in occupation of the lands, but you're talking 7 about other First Nations people who have historical 8 family ties to the -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yes? All right. And I take it that 11 there are -- are in 1995, there are a number of people 12 living on -- on the -- the Kettle Point lands -- the 13 Kettle Point Reserve whose past family members 14 historically resided at Stony Point, right? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Right. And in 1995, some of those 17 people supported the occupation of the Army Camp lands? 18 A: I believe so, yes. 19 Q: Okay, and some of those people 20 supported the occupation of the Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And some of those people 23 did not support the occupation of the Park? 24 A: Probably was. 25 Q: And it's probably the case that some


1 of -- or do you know, some of those people did not 2 support the occupation of the Army Camp lands? 3 A: Probably was, yeah. 4 Q: All right. And as long as no 5 agreement is concluded for the -- or, sorry, let me -- 6 let me just step back for a minute. For the -- the Stony 7 Point people who have not supported the occupation, as 8 long as there's no deal concluded with the Federal 9 Government for the return of those lands, they will not 10 see the return of their historical homelands, right? 11 A: What exactly is the question here? 12 Q: Well, I'm -- I'm just asking you 13 whether you'd agree that there -- there are people -- 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't think he 15 understands the question. 16 MR. PETER DOWNARD: That's right, that's 17 why -- I'm sorry. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 20 Q: I'm just asking you whether you'd 21 agree that for Stony Point people who aren't in 22 occupation and don't support the occupation, for so long 23 as there is no way of moving forward to do a deal with 24 the Federal Government for the return of the lands, 25 they're never going to get the return of their historical


1 homelands, right? Isn't that your understanding? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again, Mr. 3 Henderson, you have an objection. He's just asking him 4 if he agrees with that statement. But I mean, that's a 5 question -- 6 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I still have an 7 objection. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 9 I -- 10 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I still do have 11 an objection. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right, 13 do you want to step forward and make it then? 14 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I'll spare My Friend. 15 I'll just move on. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 19 Q: Now, sir, as I understand your 20 evidence when Mr. Millar was examining you, you were 21 talking about the occupation of the -- the Park and you 22 talked about how the Park, in your view, was part of 23 unceded territory under the 1827 Treaty, right? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And since it was, in fact, part of


1 your territory, it didn't matter how it was sold or how 2 it was bought, right? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Right. So, I take it then, for -- 5 for the purpose of deciding whether Stony Point people 6 should occupy the Park or not, whether that occupation 7 was viewed the governments involved as being contrary to 8 the laws of Canada or Ontario, did not matter; is that 9 right? That wouldn't change your mind, right? 10 A: It wasn't part of their law -- states 11 that that piece of property also belongs to us, as far as 12 the definition of unceded territory goes. 13 Q: But -- and so to -- to the extent, 14 though, that the governments took the view -- 15 A: Well, you're asking me if I disagree 16 against that, and I'd have to -- my question -- answer to 17 you would be, no, I wouldn't. 18 Q: Okay. Because -- because you see -- 19 A: There would have to be some concern 20 there, yes. 21 Q: Right, okay. But that didn't -- did 22 you have a concern during the occupation that the -- the 23 governments of Canada and Ontario considered the 24 occupation to be illegal? 25 A: Well, we were there to get the


1 attention of the Federal Government in our occupation. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: So there obviously was a concern for 4 what you're asking. 5 Q: Okay. But any view on the part of 6 those governments that the occupation was not legal, 7 would not affect your decision to occupy, right? 8 A: As far as I was concerned, it was 9 legal. 10 Q: Okay. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Okay. All right. And -- and your 15 view at the time was that because it was your 16 traditional land, the occupiers were going to take back 17 the Park and keep it, right? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Forever, right? 20 A: That's correct, as agreed upon. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And when you say "as agreed upon", 25 you're talking about the 1827 Treaty?


1 A: That's correct. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: All right. Now, as a principle 6 person of the Stony Point people in 1995, did you 7 communicate this view you had as to the Stony Point 8 people's legal -- legal entitlement to the Park lands? 9 And I'm talking about prior to September 10 1995 to, for example, the local member of Provincial 11 Parliament? 12 A: Not that I know of. 13 Q: Did you communicate this position 14 that the Stony Point people were entitled to the Park to 15 the local Federal Member of Parliament? 16 A: Not that I know of. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And I -- I take it it was your 21 understanding at the time of the occupation, that other 22 occupiers shared your view that the Park should be taken 23 back and kept forever? 24 A: That was the consensus, yes. 25 Q: Now I just want to ask you something


1 that hasn't come up before. During September 4th, 5th, 2 and 6th at the Park, did you observe any occupiers taking 3 food items from the Park store? 4 A: There was no food items in there. 5 Q: There was none in there? 6 A: No. It was -- the shelves were all 7 bare. 8 Q: Did you observe occupiers taking any 9 other sorts of items out of the Park store? 10 A: I believe there was a pair or a 11 family there, they took I believe a refrigerator. I 12 think it was a refrigerator or upright freezer, I'm not 13 sure. 14 Q: Is that something you observed or 15 that you were told about it? 16 A: No, I seen it. 17 Q: You saw that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you were talking about, I 20 believe, your -- your two (2) daughters and your wife 21 shining mirrors in the Park at the police? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And that's -- that obviously 24 gives off a glare from the sun, right? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Is it -- was it commonly understood 2 among the occupiers that that might be a way to annoy the 3 police, essentially blind them or make them 4 uncomfortable? 5 A: Was it -- was it my understanding it 6 would cause -- do what to the police? Annoying to them? 7 Q: Right. 8 A: It probably was, yeah. 9 Q: And where did the mirrors they were 10 using come from? 11 A: I don't know. Probably the built-up 12 area in one (1) of the washrooms. 13 Q: All right. You were talking about 14 people pulling their cars up to the -- the underground 15 gas tank near the maintenance shed and gasoline was being 16 handed out to people; do you remember that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Do you know anything about whether 19 Molotov cocktails were prepared after the shooting 20 incident on the night of September 6th using gasoline? 21 A: To my knowledge there was never no 22 cocktails made. 23 Q: Do you anything about any Molotov 24 cocktails being prepared before the shooting incident on 25 the night of September 6th?


1 A: No, I don't. 2 Q: And you were talking about the -- the 3 two (2) rows of picnic tables behind the maintenance shed 4 that were being used to -- to feed the bonfires one (1) 5 at a time, right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: About how many of those picnic tables 8 were there behind that -- that shed? Roughly. 9 A: Forty (40) or fifty (50), somewhere 10 around there. 11 Q: All right. Now I -- I want to turn 12 to the incident involving the -- the smashing of the 13 cruiser window on the evening of September 4th. All 14 right. And obviously what was happening there is that 15 you wanted the OPP out of the Park, right? 16 A: That was the objective, yes. 17 Q: All right, and when they wouldn't go, 18 you smashed the window on the cruiser? 19 A: That's correct -- that's correct. 20 Q: And had you -- had you turned your 21 mind at that time as to what you intended to do if they 22 didn't leave after you smashed the window? 23 A: You're asking me what might have 24 happened? 25 Q: Not -- not what might have happened,


1 I'm -- I'm asking you about your state of mind at the 2 time of -- of the event, whether you -- you had an -- you 3 had an intention as to what you would do at the time if 4 they did not leave? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 6 minute. Before you answer the question, yes, Mr. 7 Millar...? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, I -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? Oh, 10 okay. He's asking him for a state of his mind at the 11 moment. Do you remember the question? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, it never really 13 entered my mind, actually, to tell you the truth, yes. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 16 Q: All right. I -- I take it you -- you 17 would agree, sir, that smashing the window was an act of 18 violence? 19 A: I wouldn't know if it was violent, 20 but it was more or less to get their attention. 21 Q: Okay, but it was an act of violence, 22 right? 23 A: Yes, I guess it was. 24 Q: All right. And in your evidence, you 25 -- you -- you said that there were a number of your guys


1 who kind of moved in -- in closer while this event was 2 going on, just before you smashed the window? 3 A: Yes, I believe so. 4 Q: All right. And you said that when 5 you got down to one (1) and the police didn't leave and 6 you smashed the back window, everybody started hollering. 7 Do you recall that? 8 A: I think they did, yeah. 9 Q: What were they saying? 10 A: Just like -- like they always 11 describe it and I seen a number of times the way they 12 describe it as "hooting and hollering". That was pretty 13 well along that line. 14 Q: So, the -- the sounds of a -- a 15 celebration? 16 A: No, just hooting and hollering -- 17 just hollering. 18 Q: Were -- were they using -- 19 A: I don't think it was an act of 20 celebration, no. 21 Q: Were they using any words? 22 A: Not that I can recall. 23 Q: Okay. All right. After you smashed 24 the back window of -- of the cruiser, was -- was there 25 any other reaction to your having done that by any of the


1 other occupiers? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: All right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Clearly, you were not afraid of 8 confronting the OPP? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Right. I -- I just want to ask you a 11 -- a brief question about the episode of the helicopter 12 messing up the picnic, you know, blowing the food off the 13 tables? 14 A: Yeah? 15 Q: When you saw that, was -- was that at 16 -- at a time when David George was throwing rocks at the 17 helicopter? 18 A: I -- at the time I never seen anybody 19 throwing no rocks at it, I mean near the time you're 20 referring to. Yeah, he was sitting at the picnic table 21 area, right? 22 Q: I -- I beg your pardon? 23 A: You're talking about the picnic table 24 area? 25 Q: Yeah, well you -- you were talking


1 about the people trying to have a -- 2 A: Yeah. No, they -- he wasn't throwing 3 no rocks; there was nobody throwing rocks at it. 4 Q: Okay. All right. Now, I -- I just 5 want to ask you one (1) -- one (1) question about -- or 6 one (1) aspect of the confrontation on -- on the night of 7 September 6th. 8 And I'm -- I'm just wondering, this may 9 seem obvious but it's -- it's something that hasn't been 10 raised. I take it you understand there have been First 11 Nation protests where First Nations people have used what 12 are called tactics of passive resistence; right? 13 For example, if the police want to remove 14 a blockade, they simply lie down and are arrested in a -- 15 in a non-violent fashion, right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You're -- you're aware of that? 18 A: Yes, I know what you're talking 19 about, yes. 20 Q: Were -- were you aware of that -- 21 that kind of tactic existing or having been used in 1995? 22 A: It never entered my mind that 23 evening, no. 24 Q: No, but at that time were you aware 25 that such sorts of tactics existed?


1 A: Yes, I'd have to say yes. 2 Q: Okay. And did you ever consider and 3 you may have just answered this question, but did you 4 ever consider prior to or during the occupation adopting 5 those sorts of tactics, those passive resistance tactics? 6 A: I wasn't about to lay on the ground 7 and then anybody kick me and like they did to Bernard, 8 no. I would never resort to that tactic, no. 9 Q: Okay. But were -- were you aware 10 that when those tactics had been used of a case where 11 those tactics have been used in the past? 12 A: I've heard about them, yes. 13 Q: And -- and that those had not 14 resulted in the people lying down and being kicked by the 15 police? 16 A: Well, I had no assurances that they 17 wouldn't have either. 18 Q: Okay. And in any event your -- your 19 intention though was to -- was to take that land and keep 20 that land, right? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Okay. Now I don't think we need to 23 refer to the -- the map of the square of the old Army 24 Camp and Park for this but I just want to ask you about 25 what you said regarding the cottages in the -- the


1 northeast corner -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- of that square right -- remember 4 what I'm -- 5 A: Yes. I know what you're talking 6 about, yeah. 7 Q: Right. And you said in your evidence 8 that your position was that that -- that should be left 9 to the Federal Government to make the matter right? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And that's your position today, 12 right? 13 A: Yes, it is. 14 Q: Okay. What was your view regarding 15 those cottages, if you had one, back in 1995? 16 A: If I had one? 17 Q: Yeah. Well, did you have a view 18 regarding what should happen to that land in that 19 northeast corner in 1995? 20 A: In 1995? Yeah, it was -- still used 21 today as the same as in '93, yes. It's still part of our 22 territory, yeah. 23 Q: Right. But what I'm trying to get at 24 is you -- you have said that that is a matter that rather 25 than -- rather than occupying that land it should be left


1 to the Federal Government to make that right with your 2 people, right? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Okay. Is that a view you've come to 5 since 1995? 6 A: No. It was viewed before. 7 Q: All right. Now I anticipate we'll 8 hear evidence that Glenn George who you've identified as 9 another principle person of the Stony Point people, told 10 Sergeant Korosec on the evening of September 4th, 1995 to 11 tell all the people who lived west of the Park to Ravens 12 Wood that the occupiers would be taking that land next. 13 Now do you ever recall discussing with 14 Glenn George any view that land west of the Park to 15 Ravens Wood should be acquired? 16 A: No. I don't recall anything like 17 that. 18 Q: Okay. And I would like to just touch 19 upon the matter of -- of burial grounds in the Provincial 20 Park lands that you've described. And you -- you talked 21 about what you had been told in the years prior to 1995 22 and apparently going well back prior to 1995, by your -- 23 your father and your grandfather, right? 24 A: My father and my uncle. 25 Q: And your uncle, I'm sorry, that's


1 right, yes. Now, as a principle person of the Stony 2 Point people, I take it that prior to September of 1995, 3 you never met with the Kettle and Stony Point Band 4 Council to request their assistance in protecting a -- a 5 burial ground in the Park? 6 A: No, we never. 7 Q: And you never wrote to the Kettle and 8 Stony Point Band Council for that purpose? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And I take it that prior to September 11 1995, you -- you never contacted the local provincial 12 Member of the Legislature about protecting burial grounds 13 in the Park? 14 A: No, I never. 15 Q: Or the local federal Member of 16 Parliament? 17 A: No I never, they were -- they were 18 quite aware of it. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: You say they -- they were quite 23 aware? 24 A: They were quite aware of the 25 existence of the graves.


1 Q: How -- how do you know that? 2 A: In the creation of the Park, there 3 was an agreement that when the Park was formulated that 4 they would -- the graves would be protected in that area, 5 and indeed they weren't. 6 Q: Are -- are you talking about certain 7 correspondence from 1937? 8 A: Back when the Park was created, yes. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Okay, okay. All right. Thank you 13 very much, Mr. George. 14 A: You're welcome. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much, Mr. Downard. I think we now have Mr. Sulman 17 for Mr. Beaubien. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 22 Q: Good morning Mr. Commissioner, good 23 morning Mr. George. 24 A: Morning. 25 Q: As a result of the previous cross-


1 examination, I've been able to throw out several pieces 2 of paper, so you'll be pleased to know that I only have a 3 few -- few matters in your evidence, sir, that I just -- 4 just want to have a better understanding of. 5 A: Pardon me? Who are you representing? 6 Q: And I represent the MPP at the time, 7 Mr. Marcel Beaubien. 8 A: Marcel, okay. 9 Q: Okay. So there's just a couple of 10 areas I want to cover with you. And I just want to 11 better understand your evidence. 12 So as I understand it, it is your position 13 now and was your position as a principle person in 1995, 14 that the provincial Park was occupied on September 4th, 15 1995 because it was part of the un-ceded lands and it was 16 part of the lands belonging to the Stony Pointers. And 17 I've understood that correctly, sir? 18 A: Yes, you did. 19 Q: And that on September 4th, you moved 20 into the Park, and I don't mean you personally, but the - 21 - the group of occupiers, to get the federal government 22 attention, correct? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And that, I understand, that position 25 was the consensus of the occupiers of Stony Point in the


1 summer of 1995, right? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Okay. Now, the final question that 4 Mr. Millar put to you when he was asking you questions in 5 direct the other day, was to the effect, and it's an 6 important one in this -- in this proceeding, was to the 7 effect: what do you think could have been done to avoid 8 the tragic events of September -- the days of September 9 4th to 6th, 1995. 10 You recall him asking you that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And it is fair to summarize 13 your answer as: if the federal government had listened 14 to your peoples earlier protests over the return of the 15 Army Base, and had the federal government shown respect 16 to the participants in the march to Ottawa, and had the 17 federal government actually returned the Army Base as 18 promised in 1994, the tragic events of September 1995 19 could have been avoided. 20 Is that a fair summary of your answer to 21 Mr. Millar? 22 A: If they had have returned the land to 23 the proper people, yes. 24 Q: And it was the Federal Government 25 with whom you had the dispute, correct?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And in September 1995, the Province, 3 who your people had not had a longstanding dispute or 4 grievance with, got caught in the dispute between your 5 people and the Federal Government because of the Federal 6 Government's inaction, correct? 7 A: That's -- would be fair to say, yes. 8 Q: Thank you, sir. Those are all my 9 questions. 10 A: You're welcome. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I believe Ms. Hutton - 14 - Ms. Perschy -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Counsel for 16 Deb Hutton? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I believe she has no 18 questions. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So, next it would be 21 Mr. Ash on behalf of the Coroner. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 23 the Coroner. 24 MR. ROBERT ASH: I have no questions. 25 Thank you, Your Honour.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Ash has no 2 questions, so -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No 4 questions? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- it would then be 6 Mr. Ross who acts for Mr. George. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 8 Ross. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 11 Q: Mr. George. 12 A: Mr. Ross. 13 Q: I don't think it -- that was my 14 point. I was going to say, I don't think it's necessary 15 that I tell you who I am and who I act for. 16 Mr. George, before I get to some of the 17 responses to certain questions, Counsel for the Premier 18 seemed to put a lot of emphasis on the fact that you were 19 a principle man to the extent that one listening would 20 say, Well, as a principle man, he should know everything 21 about what's happening inside the Camp. 22 Did you get that impression from his 23 questions? 24 A: That's what I gathered, yes. 25 Q: And wouldn't you take it a little


1 further and say well, perhaps, a Premier should also have 2 known what was happening with his Ministry and what was 3 happening here as far as these -- the -- the incidents on 4 the -- on -- on the 6th of September? 5 A: It's a two-way street, yes. 6 Q: A two-way street? Sure. It is not 7 just a matter of responsibility for the principle man, 8 but the Premier's off the hook? 9 A: Even more so him, yes. 10 Q: Sure. I will get back to some more 11 of that. Just to clarify something, Mr. George, I take 12 it that you haven't really hunted since 1985? 13 A: Around there, yes. 14 Q: And you hunted when you were in 15 Sarnia, but when you returned back to this area, did not 16 participate in any hunting? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Yeah. And you -- you don't own any 19 firearms? 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: And you didn't own any firearms since 22 1985? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Now, in response to some questions 25 from Ms. Jackie Esmonde you spoke about having met with


1 Cecil Bernard George the night of the 6th of September? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you actually received a piece of 4 equipment from him? 5 A: A scanner, yes. 6 Q: Yes, and when did you next see Cecil 7 Bernard George after the 6th of September, 1995? 8 A: After September 6th? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: At Dudley's funeral. 11 Q: And Dudley's funeral was what? 12 Within about a week? 13 A: Well, it was a lengthy time because 14 they had a problem getting the body released. It was 15 around ten (10) or whatever -- it was a longer wait than 16 usual, yes. 17 Q: Now, I would like you to describe -- 18 first thing, when you saw Cecil Bernard George the night 19 of the 6th, describe his physical condition; tell us how 20 he looked. 21 A: Like he got beat up. 22 Q: No, before -- before. 23 A: Before he was normal, he was -- he 24 was all right. There was nothing -- 25 Q: He was all right around the time that


1 he gave you the scanner? 2 A: He was in good health, he was -- 3 nothing was wrong with him as far as I was concerned. 4 Q: No bumps, no bruises, no cuts? 5 A: No. Nothing. 6 Q: Now, describe him around the time of 7 Dudley's funeral. 8 A: He was limping, he'd tell you he was 9 in an amount of pain and he was -- his face was beat up. 10 Q: Yeah. And Counsel for the OPPA, I 11 think it is -- sorry, no. In some of the questions about 12 this alleged helicopter shooting, I recall somebody 13 asking you whether or not anybody considered turning 14 themselves in to the police. 15 Do you recall that line of questions? 16 A: I kind of think one (1) of them did 17 ask something like that -- 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Now, what I'm getting at again is a 21 different standard. Here as a principle man, they expect 22 you to know everything. As a principle man for the 23 province, well he can wash his hands, there's precedent 24 for that. 25 And here again, they're speaking that you


1 should -- somebody in the Camp should turn themselves in 2 with respect to an alleged helicopter incident. 3 As far as the beating of Cecil Bernard 4 George is concerned, do you know whether or not anybody 5 was ever charged as a result of that beating? Any police 6 officers? 7 A: To my knowledge, I never -- I never 8 heard of ... 9 Q: Now there's evidence -- 10 A: Any of them getting charged, no. 11 Q: There's evidence to suggest that 12 nobody really knew what happened to Cecil Bernard George 13 and how he became injured to that extent. 14 A: There's -- that nobody knew? 15 Q: That's what the -- well, nobody has 16 been charged. Here's a man beaten into -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- into a state of unconsciousness in 19 the hands of police, but nobody knows how it happened. 20 A: They're saying nobody knows what had 21 happened? 22 Q: Yes, that's what I'm suggesting to 23 you. Have you got any evidence that it's anybody other 24 than the police who beat Cecil George? 25 A: No.


1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: A certain amount of confusion 5 developed around the words "Port Franks" and the 6 confusion in my view -- address the cottagers at the 7 north-east corner of the -- of -- of Exhibit 40. 8 Now, where is Port Franks? Could you just 9 perhaps take the -- the -- that laser -- 10 A: It would be way over -- 11 Q: So Port Franks -- 12 A: -- in this area. 13 Q: -- is some distance east of Outer 14 Drive? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, was there any effort or any 17 intention to occupy Port Franks? 18 A: Never. 19 Q: Now Port Franks is a different 20 community, isn't it? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: I see. So as far as you were 23 concerned, the limits of your occupation would be the 24 limits as shown on Exhibit 40, on the east, bounded by 25 Outer Drive, on the west, by Army Camp Road, on the


1 north, by Lake Huron, and on the south, by Highway 21, 2 and that would be the limits except for the cottages? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Mr. -- Mr. George, would it be fair 5 to say that the unfortunate events of the 5th and the 6th 6 of September, 1995, really changed the focus of what the 7 occupiers was doing? 8 I mean, here you are, a peaceful 9 occupation. You'd gone onto the range without incident. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: You'd gone into the built-up area 12 without incident. 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And you had gone into the Park and 15 the shooting incident just about changed the way you -- 16 you had planned to operate and to bring pressure on the 17 federal government? 18 A: Yes and it got, like, you're speaking 19 of getting their attention, yes. Unfortunately, yes. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, as far as the north-west corner 24 of the lands are concerned, it appears to be a Park and 25 another area which was called the sandy parking lot.


1 Now, that's the north-east, the other side over there. 2 The Park and the sandy parking lot. 3 Did you see any difference between the 4 Park and the -- and the sandy parking lot for the purpose 5 of your interests? 6 A: No, it was no different than the rest 7 of it, yeah. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And as far as the cottagers at the 12 north-east corner of the lands are concerned, do you know 13 if any of them were ever harassed by any mem -- by any of 14 the occupiers? 15 A: Not by the occupiers. I -- but I 16 think once Maynard T. tried to serve an eviction notice 17 on them but that's as far as it went. It wasn't condoned 18 by the rest of us. 19 Q: But it was just a matter of serving 20 an eviction notice? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: There was no effort to occupy those 23 properties? 24 A: No, there wasn't. 25 Q: I believe that in response to some of


1 the -- sorry. Someone of the lawyers asked you about 2 whether or not any unexploded ordinance had ever been 3 found and I think you responded in the affirmative? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you know when these unexploded 6 ordinances were found? Any idea? 7 A: Last -- that would last summer and 8 the previous summer before. 9 Q: That's in 2002 and in 2003? 10 A: Yes. I believe it was that. 11 Q: Do you recall any having been found 12 any time in 1995 through 2002? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And when these were found in 2002 and 15 2003, what kind of quantity are we talking about? Is it 16 one shell, is it twenty (20) shells, is it a box of 17 shells or what? 18 A: One -- one incident was one (1) three 19 (3) inch mortar and the second incident I believe it was 20 eleven (11) live rounds of practice rockets. 21 Q: And what happened to these unexploded 22 ordinances? 23 A: Through our protocol with DND, with 24 their liaison, I notified them and they just dispatched a 25 bomb squad from I believe its Petawawa. I believe they


1 came down and disposed of them on site. 2 Q: I see. So there was -- there was 3 protocol to deal with such things and it was employed? 4 A: Yes. Yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And Mr. George, in response to 9 questions from Commission counsel and many other counsel, 10 there seems to be emphasis on the fact that Les Jewel, 11 Russell Jewel, Dutchy French, Charles Chucky George, 12 Wayne Wilson (phonetic) and others who were not normally 13 residents of either Kettle Point or Stony Point were in 14 the -- in the area of the occupiers. 15 Now have you ever visited Walpole Island? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Did you need any special invitation 18 to go there? 19 A: No. I was down there this previous 20 Sunday as a matter of fact. 21 Q: As a -- as a member of the First 22 Nation group you travelled through other First Nations 23 without any impediment, is that correct? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And you can cross the border into the


1 United States to visit other First Nations without 2 problems? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: So that it is not really unusual to 5 find lots of other First Nations people gathering on any 6 First Nations territory for any reason? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Is the matter almost like an open 9 invitation, isn't that correct? 10 A: Hmm hmm. That's correct. 11 Q: Mr. George, I want to just draw your 12 attention to something interesting here. Mr. George, 13 look at that sign for me please, could you read that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: What does it say? 16 A: Closed until our stupid governments 17 get their shit together. 18 Q: Is that a fair representation of the 19 position taken by the occupiers that the governments 20 needed to do something? 21 A: It is a true statement, yes. 22 Q: Now this I understand was a sign put 23 up by some of the residents. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So then it is fair to say that in


1 this context, the residents and the occupiers are on all 2 force, looking to the governments to do something? 3 A: That's correct. Consensus. 4 Q: Now, Mr. George, in response to Ms. 5 Karen Jones, you were speaking about how -- how things 6 are managed in -- in -- among the occupiers and you -- 7 you said as far as rules of conduct, she asked you, on a 8 code of conduct and said it was based on respect. 9 Now we have heard talk that there's 10 something called a "circle". 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And when is a circle employed? 13 A: Whenever there's -- I'd have to say 14 whenever there's a need for one (1), like there's 15 different reasons -- 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: -- like, for internal problems or 18 after a tragedy or healing circles. There's different 19 types, yes. 20 Q: So, the circle system is something 21 which is a part of -- of First Nation custom to address 22 problems? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Or deal with any kind of situation 25 which requires numbers of people --


1 A: Yes, it's -- 2 Q: -- to address the matters? 3 A: It's also used as a -- say if 4 somebody breaks our law on our territory, they're also 5 put in what we call a sentencing circle. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: Yes, and, like, all Parties are 8 involved. 9 Q: And have you had a -- a reason to -- 10 to -- to -- to assemble a circle among the occupiers? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: There was an occasion, am I correct? 13 A: From time to time, yes. 14 Q: Perhaps you'll give us an example of 15 what would happen or what would provoke the establishment 16 of a circle. 17 A: Well, one (1) incident was when this 18 Kevin Thomas was -- he was accused -- and we later found 19 out that he actually did break into my father's trailer 20 and Dave's trailer and we found out. 21 Later we put him in a circle and he 22 admitted to doing it and we -- we'd talk around in a 23 circle and then it's everybody's -- up to everybody in 24 that circle to -- what punishment should be dealt down 25 and that time all we asked him was to go through -- to a


1 sweat lodge. That's all. 2 Q: Yeah? 3 A: And which he -- he complied with. 4 Q: So, you -- so -- so as a -- so this 5 circle is almost like a -- a legal forum? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And as a result of this forum, there 8 was a recommendation and he followed the recommendation? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yeah. Now, a lot was made about 11 something called a Mohawk flag. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Now, tell me about the flag. 14 A: I asked for her definition of that 15 Mohawk flag and I did not get one. I did not -- she did 16 not give me her definition of it. 17 Q: But as far as the people at 18 Aazhoodena is concerned, have you got a flag? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And could you, perhaps, tell us about 21 this flag? What is it supposed to represent? 22 A: It's a unity flag. 23 Q: It's a unity flag? 24 A: For all nations, yes. 25 Q: Now, is there any military component


1 to this unity flag? 2 A: No, there isn't. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Now around the time that you -- that 7 -- that the -- the circle was established to deal with 8 Kevin Thomas, what was the charge -- what was the 9 allegation against him? What was the problem which 10 triggered that circle? 11 A: He broke into my father's trailer 12 that was down on the range and stole a pipe. 13 Q: He stole a -- a pipe, yes? 14 A: Yes, and he broke into my cousin, 15 David George's place there, too, and he stole a sawed-off 16 shotgun. 17 Q: He stole a -- oh, yes? So he stole 18 the pipe; he stole the shotgun? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And did he admit to the stealings? 21 A: Yes, he did. 22 Q: I see. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: In an effort to clear up a little bit 2 of a confusion, on September the 4th, you remember the 3 incident where you and Stewart went down to the end of 4 Matheson where the police was assembled? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: The suggestion that the -- the car 7 door was thrown open -- whose car was it? 8 A: It was my car. 9 Q: Could you tell us the state of repair 10 of the car and -- and tell me about that door? 11 A: Well, I was in the process of having 12 it safety checked and in -- for it to pass safety, I did 13 take it there, but it was turned back because the door 14 latches and the door pins were found to have been -- they 15 need replacing. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: And I -- I'd done that to the 18 driver's door, but I did not get to the passenger door 19 yet and, as a result of that, that's why the door did fly 20 open because the hatch was defective as a result of the 21 pins being wore out. 22 Other than that it was in -- it would have 23 passed a safety. 24 Q: But as far as the incident with the 25 door opening and hitting the police car, were you


1 satisfied in your own mind that this was no attempt to 2 damage the car. It's just a defective door, rather 3 than -- 4 A: That -- that's correct, yeah. 5 Q: Okay, thank you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: There's another thing I'd like you to 10 clear up for me. As far as the gasolene that was stored, 11 that was kept by the military, is concerned, there's an 12 impression that this gasolene was just being passed round 13 to anybody. 14 Was there any control over this gasolene? 15 A: It was for the patrol vehicles, 16 people coming in and volunteering to do patrols of the 17 perimeter and that's what it was utilized for. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: They were asking about 19 the maintenance building gas. There's a difference. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 24 Q: And I think there was also gasolene 25 in the maintenance building?


1 A: Yes, there was some there in storage 2 in cans. 3 Q: In cans? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: Gas cans and the plastic ones. 7 Q: And -- and who was storing that 8 gasolene in the maintenance building? 9 A: I believe it was Russ, the younger -- 10 yeah, Russ Jewel. 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Can I have Document Number 1003921? 16 Nine two one (921). Yes, please. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Mr. George, not so much as to attempt 21 to usurp the -- the Inquiry process, but here in 1996 22 there seem to have been some unanswered questions of 23 Ipperwash as reported in the Toronto Star. 24 Now, as I go through this article, Mr. 25 George, could you move up a bit, please? Thank you.


1 There is a bullet, and it says, 2 "Why didn't police send a mediator 3 instead of deploying snipers under 4 cover of darkness?" 5 Now there's been a lot of suggestion that 6 Mark Wright wanted to talk. Now, as I look at this 7 article, it goes on to say: 8 "No attempt was made by police to 9 negotiate...". 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, this is 11 a newspaper article and My Friend -- and it's a newspaper 12 article from June of '96, and it seems to me that the -- 13 My Friend can ask the witness questions but what's in 14 this newspaper article is not evidence and what the -- 15 the writer of the article wrote is not evidence. 16 And My Friend can put positions to -- 17 questions to the witness but I don't think using this 18 article is an appropriate way of doing it. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross can 20 just ask the question that's being asked for example. Is 21 that what you're -- you're suggesting? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If Mr. Ross is going 23 to -- is reading this article -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- as if this article


1 had some evidentiary value. It's -- it's simply an 2 article. We'll be calling Mr. Mark Wright and that's 3 my -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 5 Ross...? 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I feel that I've been 7 cut off by the knees, so I will just move onto something 8 else, Mr. Commissioner. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, you could ask 10 the question. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. You - 12 - you could ask the question, Mr. Ross, you don't need 13 the article in order to ask the question. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you. Thank you, 15 Mr. Commissioner. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 18 Q: The suggestion, Mr. George, that 19 there was only around thirty-five (35) Indians in 20 Ipperwash Park the night of September the 6th, 1995, is 21 that a fair number? 22 A: Including the people in the 23 maintenance shed, yes. 24 Q: It's also been suggested that there 25 was approximately two hundred and fifty (250) police


1 officers. As far as you're concerned, I mean, about how 2 many police officers could you recall being there? 3 A: That I could recall seeing? 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: I'd have to say around -- there was 6 the two (2) rows, thirty (30) to forty (40). 7 Q: And apart from that thirty (30) forty 8 (40) were there any other that you saw? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And if there was to be evidence to 11 the affect that the police didn't try to negotiate 12 because they were convinced that the Indians were heavily 13 armed, what would you say to that? Was anybody heavily 14 armed on your side -- the Indians? 15 A: Not whatsoever, no. 16 Q: And there's also suggestion, sir, 17 that as far as the shooting is concerned which resulted 18 in the death of Dudley George, that when the police 19 shooting stopped, there was no shooting after? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And that there was no shooting before 22 the police shooting started? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Thank you. And shortly after the 25 death of Dudley George, were you aware that a store owner


1 here in Forrest was selling souvenirs only to police 2 officers which had on the words, Team Ipperwash '95? 3 A: I was made aware of that fact later 4 on, yes. 5 Q: And Mr. -- Mr. Downard was asking you 6 about this concept of passive resistance and all the 7 great things that it could accomplish. Now I don't think 8 he mentioned to you that in Oka there was no passive 9 resistance and nobody got killed. Is that your 10 recollection? 11 A: Other than one (1) police officer. 12 Q: And at Gustafson Lake there was 13 passive resistance and nobody got killed? 14 A: Not that I know of. 15 MR. PETER DOWNARD: In Gustafson Lake 16 there was a bullet in a police officer's vest. 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: The bullet in the vest 18 of the police officer didn't kill him, did it? 19 THE WITNESS: I think a dog was killed in 20 Gustafson Lake too. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 25 Q: Now, Mr. George, you were directed to


1 a statement apparently given to Delia Oppeckakew 2 (phonetic) and that is found in Volume XIII, Document 3 Number 3000381 where there's a suggestion that somebody 4 called for the bus and you said, run the fucking bastards 5 over? 6 Do you recall making that statement? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: Now, when you were -- do you recall 9 being interviewed by Delia Oppeckakew? 10 A: I don't recall, but I recall meeting 11 her, yes. 12 Q: Now -- so you don't recall the 13 interview? 14 A: No, I -- 15 Q: And I think you told -- 16 A: -- can't find it in my head, but -- 17 Q: And I think it would be fair to say 18 even if you could recall the interview, you could not now 19 remember exactly what you said to her. 20 A: I don't think so, no. 21 Q: And after you were interviewed by 22 Delia Oppeckakew, and I assume that you were, was the 23 results of the interview ever reduced to writing and 24 referred to you for checking for accuracy? 25 A: No, it wasn't.


1 Q: And further statements were shown to 2 you that were apparently given to the SIU and one of them 3 is Volume III, Document Number 1004444 at Page 2 of 6, 4 where there's again a reference to the bus and it was: 5 "Get the bus and separate them". 6 Is this consistent with your thinking at 7 that time, to use the bus to separate the police? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: To separate them from what? 10 A: Separate them as a group because they 11 were in the process of beating up Slippery -- Bernard 12 George, I should say. 13 Q: Now as far as those statements, you 14 recall being interviewed by the SIU? 15 A: A couple of times, I think so, yes. 16 Q: And with each of these interviews, 17 did they ever reduce the results of this interview to 18 writing and refer it to you for checking for accuracy? 19 A: I believe so, yes. 20 Q: So as far as this one (1) is 21 concerned, you're satisfied that you would have said: 22 "get the bus and separate them"? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now, speaking about the bus and its 25 location, you were being examined by Ms. Jones -- yes --


1 and there was a question as to where the police were, and 2 the answer seemed to suggest that all of the police were 3 in one (1) spot at the side of the bus. 4 Could you -- could you see where all the 5 police were at any one (1) point? 6 A: No. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Now, there was another article that 11 was referred to you. It's in Volume II, Document Number 12 1002531. In your evidence you said that you saw Dudley 13 go down in your evidence before this Inquiry. 14 Am I correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now in the document -- there was a 17 document prepared by the SIU and it appeared to be an 18 interview between yourself and somebody else, it was a 19 fairly short document. 20 Did you get a document to review which had 21 in the term that you did not see Dudley go down? 22 A: For these proceedings, no, I never. 23 Q: But way back with the SIU? 24 A: I believe they did, yeah. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: What I'm trying to get clear -- 4 perhaps I should have the document, if you don't mind. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: This -- this is the document I'm 9 referring to. Could you just move it up for me, please? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Just see if I can... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Could you stop there 15 for a minute? 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 18 Q: For instance, Mr. George, as I look 19 at this document in the -- about five (5) or six (6) 20 lines down, it says this "X" in two (2) places -- it's 21 two (2) paces from the large cement cube, which is 22 directly in front of the steel gate. Then it goes on to 23 say: 24 "Roderick, can you throw an "X" on the 25 ground please where you last seen


1 Dudley George go down?" 2 Now, do you remember getting a copy of 3 this document to look over? 4 A: No, but -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- because I would have pointed out, 7 how do you throw an "X"? 8 Q: Okay, fine, that's number 1 and the 9 other one, it says, further about three (3) lines down: 10 "Okay, Roderick George is indicating--" 11 Sorry -- two (2) sentences down: 12 "Roderick George indicates that he did 13 not see Dudley George go down." 14 Is that a correct statement; that you did 15 not see Dudley George go down? 16 A: No, that's not correct, because I -- 17 I did see him, yeah. He was right -- 18 Q: So, your evidence here that you saw 19 him go down is correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And if you had been given a copy of 22 that document to review, you would have made those 23 changes? 24 A: Yes, I would have. 25 Q: All right.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 2 Jones...? Just a minute, Mr. Ross, Ms. Jones has an 3 objection. 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Oh, very sorry. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: No, no. Mr. 6 Commissioner, it says in the document that Roderick 7 George's -- that -- that the -- that filming was going on 8 while these statements were being made and statements 9 were being taken and perhaps if there's any question 10 about what Mr. George told the SICU, we would be able to 11 see those video tapes. 12 I hadn't realized up until this second in 13 time there would be some question about whether or not 14 that was accurate and I'm assuming the easiest way to 15 resolve that would be by looking at the video tapes. 16 Perhaps we could get some assistance on 17 whether or not -- I understand the Commission would have 18 received the SIU material -- whether we could see that 19 tape. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm just trying to 21 think, Commissioner, we do have a video and if we took a 22 few moments, we might be able to find it. I'm not 23 certain that the video has -- because I've -- has audio 24 on it, but if we can -- if we could break for a few 25 minutes I can check to see if we have that here.


1 We have some other -- we have some 2 material that was provided that's in video format that is 3 not here and I just need to see if we've got it on a CD- 4 ROM or DVD that we could play today. If not, we can 5 check and play it at another time, but if -- if we could 6 take a few minutes, I could do that. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross, do 8 you think that's a good idea? 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: My view, Mr. 10 Commissioner, is that the next series of questions then 11 will be had he seen the video, had he seen all this and 12 would he have corrected the video? 13 So I can save my -- the Commission the 14 trouble of going and getting the video because if he says 15 he did not see this video and he did not see this 16 document, his evidence here today is that he saw Dudley 17 go down and that has been consistent with other evidence 18 given some other time. 19 The question is: Did he have an 20 opportunity to correct whatever record is now being 21 brought forward to refute this argument. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 23 Jones...? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 25 had actually understood the issue was a little different


1 than that. In terms of correcting the record or not it 2 seemed to me an issue was whether or not Mr. George told 3 the SIU at that time that he did not see Dudley George go 4 down. 5 And the reason for -- if -- if that is in 6 question, the reason to look at the video and I would 7 have presumed if there's a transcript from it, that there 8 would be an audio portion, would be to see whether he 9 said it or not. 10 Now Mr. George may at the end of the day 11 have an explanation for why on -- on that date he told 12 the SIU something and now he's telling -- saying 13 something different. 14 And it's fair enough for him to have a 15 chance to explain. But what I was taking from Mr. Ross's 16 question was that there was at least an implication that 17 somehow what was on that document was wrong, that it 18 didn't accurately reflect what Mr. George had told the 19 SIU. 20 Any my suggestion is merely if that's the 21 issue then we should see it and we can see what Mr. 22 George said. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Your -- it 24 presumes (a) that we have the video and (b) that there is 25 audio. But I think we should -- we should at least see


1 if that's the case. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And if not, if we 3 could take a few minutes, perhaps we could take the 4 morning break now -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. It's 6 an appropriate time. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- at 10:30 and then-- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can let 9 us know what you've got and -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- what we 12 can do? Is that all right, Mr. Ross? We'll take the 13 morning break and see what we can find. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. 15 Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 17 fifteen (15) minute recess. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 10:35 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 10:49 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed, please be seated.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I don't 2 have the -- we do have the video because I've seen the 3 video. I have -- we don't have the video here and what I 4 will do is locate the video and bring it -- we can sort 5 out among the parties what we'll do with it. And if 6 necessary perhaps Mr. George could come back to deal with 7 that issue, but I don't have the video here today. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Well 9 we'll move on. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 12 Q: Mr. George, just by way of correction 13 of incident not the effect, it was the driving of the bus 14 into the drill hall that Mr. Downard was talking to you 15 about when he asked whether or not anybody considered 16 turning himself over to the police. It was not the 17 helicopter incident. Just for correction. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Now, that date when you struck the -- 20 the back windshield of the police vehicle. It was the 21 back windshield, am I correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Yes. Now, did you think of striking 24 the police at any time? 25 A: No, I never.


1 Q: Okay. So this act, whatever it was, 2 it was directed against the property rather than the 3 individual? 4 A: That's correct. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Now at the time of the 9 decommissioning of the Base, the time of the occupation 10 of the Base in 1995, there's evidence that somebody in 11 charge, some military person handed over keys et cetera, 12 and told somebody, it's all yours. You know anything 13 about that? 14 A: He didn't exactly hand over keys, but 15 when he left he did make that remark, yes. 16 Q: That it's all yours? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And there was a question posed to you 23 by Mr. Downard and I'm a little confused on the response. 24 My notes indicate that he suggested to you that as long 25 as Kettle Point, Stony Point and the Chippewa of Kettle


1 Point and Stony Point the First Nation, Indian Act First 2 Nation were the only negotiators, no deal could be 3 acceptable to the occupiers; that was what was suggested 4 to you. 5 Let me ask you, in the context of that 6 question, how do you expect the lands to be turned over? 7 What -- what are you -- 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: May I have a 9 word, Mr. Ross? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again, Mr. 11 Henderson has difficulty with that. 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Oh, sorry. I'm advised 13 that the question was withdrawn. Thank you. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 16 Q: Mr. George, do you recall -- do you 17 remember the name Rosemary Err (phonetic)? 18 A: Yes. I know her, yeah. 19 Q: Yeah. Mr. Downard asked whether or 20 not there was any communication to your local MP. Who 21 was Rosemary Err? 22 A: I think she is the -- what do you 23 call? Provincial MP? 24 Q: No, federal. 25 A: Federal? Is she the federal one?


1 Okay. I knew it was either one (1), yeah. 2 Q: And do you know of any involvement 3 she had or any communications, anything directed to her 4 with respect to the -- the lands and the occupation? 5 A: At which point of time? 6 Q: Between 1993 and 1995 after the death 7 of Dudley George? 8 A: I don't think not in that time 9 period, no. 10 Q: Okay. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Mr. George, as far as you know, how 15 long had these problems been festering which led to the 16 occupation of the range, then of the built-up area, and 17 then of the Park? How long had this problem been 18 outstanding? 19 A: How long am I aware of it? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Years, through my experiences with my 22 father and uncle. They always talked about it and -- 23 Q: It goes beyond your years, then? 24 A: Yes, it does. 25 Q: So any suggestion that, as a


1 principle man, you could have just contacted Chief and 2 Council at Kettle Point and set negotiations in place is 3 really ridiculous, isn't it? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Thank you very much. No other 6 questions. 7 8 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: I've just one (1) or two (2) 10 questions, Mr. George. I need to -- I'd like to ask you 11 a question about the gas tanks. 12 You were asked a question about the -- by 13 Mr. Downard, I believe, about the gas tanks at -- the 14 underground gas tank at the maintenance building, and 15 then Mr. Ross asked you about an underground tank and you 16 responded that -- and the -- the response appeared to me 17 that you were directed to the Army Camp -- the built-up 18 area. 19 My first question is: Was there an 20 underground gasoline storage tank at the maintenance 21 building on the Provincial Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And there was a separate underground 24 storage tank on the -- at the built-up area of the Army 25 Camp?


1 A: No, there wasn't. 2 Q: There wasn't? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And the gasoline that was -- the 5 occupiers used some of the gasoline from the underground 6 storage tank at the maintenance building? Is that 7 correct? 8 A: If -- if we used it? 9 Q: Yeah, did you use it during -- 10 A: Yes, we used it up, yeah. 11 Q: And -- but on September 4th, 5th, and 12 6th, can you tell me from your knowledge what the 13 gasoline from the underground storage tank at the 14 maintenance building was used for? 15 A: For patrol vehicles for the 16 territory. 17 Q: And was it used for the bus? 18 A: I believe so, yes. 19 Q: And were you aware that when -- when 20 you referred Mr. Ross to gasoline -- plastic containers 21 of gasoline in the maintenance building, were those 22 containers filled from the gasoline from the underground 23 storage tank? 24 A: I believe so, yeah. 25 Q: Thank you, those are my questions,


1 sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 5 Mr. George. You're finished; we may have to recall you 6 with respect to the video once we sort that out, but 7 thank you very much for coming. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay, thank you very much. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much for coming. 11 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 12 13 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 14 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- our -- we'll have 18 our next witness in a moment, but I just wanted to advise 19 everyone because there was a question asked by Mr. 20 Downard, there is a video of the Park store on -- taken 21 by, I believe, either an OPP officer or an MNR official 22 on September 4th which we will, in due course, be playing 23 and -- and it shows the -- frankly, it shows that the 24 store was -- the shelves were empty, but it shows what 25 was in the store.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you want 2 to have a break, Ms. Vella, before you start? You -- 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, I need to put some 4 maps up there, but -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, let's 6 keep going. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Shall I do that? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There was 9 some suggestion that we might take a shorter lunch, but I 10 gather that's not an option, it's too hard for folks to 11 get something to eat in anything less than an hour -- an 12 hour and a quarter, so we'll leave it as it is. With the 13 bad weather we might have shortened it, but -- 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Can you -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I think 16 we'll just leave it as it is. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission calls as 21 its next witness, Isaac Charles Doxtator. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good


1 morning. 2 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Doxtator, I 4 understand from counsel that you prefer to use the eagle 5 oath. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Please state your name in 8 full please, sir. 9 THE WITNESS: Isaac Charles William 10 Doxtator. 11 12 ISAAC CHARLES DOXTATOR, Sworn: 13 14 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Good morning. 16 A: Good morning. 17 Q: I understand that your name is Isaac 18 Charles William, is it, Doxtator? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I also understand that you 21 sometimes go by the name Buck? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Your date of birth is February 23rd, 24 1950? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And where is your permanent 2 residence? 3 A: Oneida Settlement. 4 Q: I just understand, Mr. Doxtator, that 5 they're having difficulty hearing you, the Court 6 Reporter. So perhaps we'll just put mike a little bit 7 closer to your -- thank you. Do I need to repeat that 8 information? Thank you. 9 And what is your current occupation, sir? 10 A: I'm not working right now. I'm a 11 labourer but I worked the iron -- I just work on iron. 12 Q: Thank you. What First Nation are you 13 a member of? 14 A: Onyetd'Hagh (phonetic) Oneida Nation. 15 Q: Do you have any ancestral connections 16 to the former Stony Point Reserve? 17 A: Could you repeat the question? 18 Q: Do you have any ancestral connections 19 to the former Stony Point Reserve? Any relatives who 20 once lived there? 21 A: I guess, like, my relatives. 22 Q: All right. Do you have any relatives 23 currently living at Aazhoodena? 24 A: Yeah, I think I do. 25 Q: I understand that you are a member of


1 an organization called -- in English called the Oneida 2 Warrior Society, sometimes referred to as The 3 Peacekeepers? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And how long have you been a member 6 of this organization? 7 A: Well it's our -- our -- that's our 8 responsibility -- our natural responsibility and duty as 9 a man in -- in our nation. 10 Q: So ever since you achieved manhood 11 then? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And are you a recognized leader 14 within that movement? 15 A: I don't know if a leader, what do you 16 mean leader, there's no leaders. 17 Q: All right. As a member of this 18 Warrior Society, to whom are you accountable for your 19 actions as a Warrior? 20 A: We have a traditional council, the 21 Chiefs, Faith Keepers, and Clan Mothers Iroquois 22 Confederacy. 23 Q: And can you tell me approximately how 24 many members this Society had as at early 1995? 25 A: I couldn't say. There's -- there's


1 young men in all the territories. I don't know. 2 Q: In terms of the Oneida Warrior 3 Society though, what territories are you speaking of? 4 A: Any -- any -- any of the -- any of 5 the Nations in the Iroquois Confederacy, that's six (6) 6 Nations. 7 Q: All right. And in terms of your own 8 Reserve, approximately how many members of the Society 9 would there have been in -- in early 1995? 10 A: I don't know. 11 Q: Would all of the men in your 12 territory be automatically members of the Warrior 13 Society? 14 A: I guess whoever wanted to be. 15 Q: Whoever wanted to be? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. And can you tell me what 18 is the main role and function of your territory's Warrior 19 -- Warrior Society? 20 A: Keep the peace on our territories. 21 Q: Do members of your territory's 22 warrior society lend support from time to time to First 23 Nations outside of the Iroquois Confederacy? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what is the process for


1 determining whether or not your territory's society will 2 intervene on behalf of another First Nation? 3 A: It all depends what Nation, I guess, 4 you come from, because they send a wampum belt with a 5 runner to the territory to ask for help. 6 Q: All right. And is there then a 7 process that you can describe for us, a decision making 8 process at your territory, that would then be undertaken? 9 A: The -- the Chiefs will have a -- a 10 meeting, a Council meeting and they'll decide. 11 Q: All right. And have you been 12 involved in peacekeeping missions on behalf of your 13 territory's Warrior Society prior to 1995? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And in that connection, have 16 you ever deployed or used assault firearms, or other such 17 weaponry in the course of any of your peacekeeping 18 missions? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Have you ever carried such arms, 21 however, during the course of those peacekeeping 22 missions? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. Have you ever carried firearms 25 in the course of participating in Aboriginal protests or


1 occupations? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Do you have any formal training in 4 the use of firearms? 5 A: When you grow up as a kid, you -- us, 6 we hunted all our life. I had a rifle when I was six (6) 7 and seven (7) years old. 8 Q: And have you ever the occasion to 9 handle assault firearms? 10 A: Oh, I've seen them around. 11 Q: And have you had occasion to handle 12 them? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And have you used them from time to 15 time? 16 A: I might have tried them out. 17 Q: Practising? 18 A: Just to try to shoot it, you know. 19 Q: And what assault firearms have you 20 had occasion to handle from time to time? 21 A: I think it was an SKS. 22 Q: What's an SKS? 23 A: It's just a rifle that one (1) of the 24 guys used to use for -- I used to borrow it to go 25 hunting, 'cause that's all they had.


1 Q: Is it an automatic or semi-automatic 2 rifle? 3 A: Semi-automatic. 4 Q: All right. And have you also had 5 occasion to handle AK-40's? 6 A: I don't know what an AK-40 is. 7 Q: AK-47? 8 A: Oh I've seen them, yeah. 9 Q: And you've -- you've handled them 10 from time to time, isn't that fair? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And can you describe what kind of 13 weapon that is? 14 A: I don't know where they come from. 15 Probably Russia or somewheres. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. Is it an automatic weapon. 17 A: No, just a semi-automatic. You can 18 buy them in stores. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: They sell them over the counter. 21 Q: And what about 9mm Glocks? Have you 22 handled those from time to time? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you know what kind of gun that is? 25 A: Must be a pistol of some sort, sounds


1 like a handgun. 2 Q: You know it to be a handgun, is that 3 fair? 4 A: Yes. Yeah, I have gun books at home. 5 Q: All right. And an MI-14, have you 6 ever had a -- occasion to handle one (1) of those? 7 A: M-14, yeah, I -- I hunted with one 8 (1). 9 Q: Okay. And can you tell me, is that a 10 semi or automatic rifle? 11 A: Semi-automatic. 12 Q: Okay. Any other semi-automatic or 13 automatic rifles that you've had occasion to handle at 14 any time? 15 A: Well, a shot -- a 12 gauge shotgun or 16 whatever -- hunting rifles. 17 Q: Are -- are they semi-automatic or -- 18 A: They could be. 19 Q: Okay. Thank you. And these various 20 firearms that you've described as having handled, you'd 21 handled those prior to 1995? 22 A: Before? 23 Q: Before? 24 A: Yeah, yeah. 25 Q: Thank you. Do you have any formal


1 military training? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Have you been involved in any 4 aboriginal training with any type of paramilitary 5 components? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Now, you've indicated that -- that 8 you have been involved in other aboriginal protests or 9 occupations prior to 1995? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And in what countries have you been 12 involved in such protests or occupations? 13 A: What do you mean, "What countries?" 14 Q: Canada -- 15 A: Oh, just say Canada, I guess. 16 Q: And United States? 17 A: Well, I might have been in 18 demonstrations and stuff like that on spiritual runs to - 19 - from Buffalo to New York City, you know. 20 Q: Okay. And these would have been 21 prior to 1995? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And can you tell us what the most 24 significant aboriginal protests or demonstrations or 25 occupations that you had been involved in prior to 1995?


1 A: I was in Gunnawage (phonetic) in 2 Montreal a few years back. I was there when something 3 was going on. 4 Q: And how about Oka? 5 A: I've been there. 6 Q: Were you at Gustafson Lake? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. Burnt Church? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Any other significant occupations 11 that you were involved in prior to 1995? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. And when you were at Oka 14 and Akwasasny (phonetic) did you have occasion to handle 15 a firearm of any kind? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Would it be fair to say that the 18 police authorities in Ontario would have known -- likely 19 known of your involvement in these protests as at 1995? 20 A: Pardon? 21 Q: Do you know whether the police would 22 likely have known about your involvement in Oka and 23 Akwasasny? 24 A: Oh, yeah, probably. 25 Q: I understand, sir, that in 1971, you


1 were convicted of assaulting a Peace Officer and received 2 a fine of three hundred and fifty dollars ($350)? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: In 1975, you were convicted of 5 attempted auto theft and you received a suspended 6 sentence and two (2) years of probation? 7 A: I guess, yes. 8 Q: And in 1988, you were convicted of 9 break, enter, and theft, and you received five (5) months 10 incarceration? 11 A: Time served it was, not five (5) 12 months. 13 Q: I understand that there was an appeal 14 by your -- on your behalf of the latter conviction and 15 the Courts indicated that you would serve the time 16 served -- 17 A: Yeah, yeah. 18 Q: -- at the date of the appeal? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. Now when did you first 21 learn of the movement by former residents of Stoney Point 22 Reserve to reclaim their traditional Reserve territory? 23 A: Could you repeat the question? 24 Q: When did you first learn of the 25 movement or attempts by certain aboriginal persons to


1 reclaim the former Stoney Point Reserve territory? 2 A: It was probably after they -- they 3 were in there, in -- 4 Q: Sometime in or around 1993? 5 A: I'm not sure what year it was, but it 6 was before, yeah. 7 Q: It was before the occupation of the 8 Park? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: But it was after they entered the 11 Army Camp lands in May of '93? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. And can you just tell us 14 the circumstances of how it is that you came to learn of 15 this -- of this movement? 16 A: I used to do a lot of fishing at 17 Kettle Point and I know guys there, so I come down here a 18 lot and some of the guys had moved from Kettle Point to 19 Camp Ipperwash, so I went and visited them over there and 20 I start fishing over there and staying overnight and 21 stuff, you know. 22 Q: Okay. So you started to visit them 23 prior to their move into the barracks? 24 A: I was down here a lot visiting Kettle 25 Point. I stopped over there once in a while.


1 Q: Okay. "Over there" being the Army 2 Camp? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. And did you stay 5 overnight from time to time at the -- in the Army Camp 6 lands? 7 A: Yeah, I've stayed at Dudley's place a 8 few times, yeah. 9 Q: That's Dudley George's trailer? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And you recall where his trailer was 12 located when you stayed there? 13 A: It was along Highway 21. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And to your knowledge, did 18 individuals from the Stoney Point group consult with your 19 traditional Council or request assistance or support from 20 your traditional Council? 21 A: Oh yes, I believe they did. 22 Q: And you know when those consultations 23 began? 24 A: No, I don't know exactly when they 25 began, but I know they were talking with our people from


1 back home. 2 Q: And was there a decision made, then, 3 by the traditional Council and the Clan Mothers to lend 4 support in the form of the warrior society? 5 A: I believe there was, yeah. 6 Q: All right. And were there any 7 parameters set on the extent of the support that the 8 society was to lend to the Stoney Point group? 9 A: Could you repeat the question? 10 Q: Were there any parameters or limits 11 or conditions set by the Clan Mothers and the traditional 12 Council on the extent of the support that the Warrior 13 Society was to give? 14 A: Well I -- the guys from back home 15 would have came down and they would have took direction 16 from somebody from the Camp Ipperwash. 17 Q: Okay. And who was that that they 18 typically took direction from? 19 A: I'm not sure. I think there was a 20 body of people that were -- they had a group of people. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: A committee, whatever, I'm not sure. 23 Q: Is it fair to say that you -- you 24 personally decided to lend support to these people? 25 A: I was here, coming down here, at that


1 time when -- with a couple of other guys. We were going 2 fishing and we were going to just stay with them in the 3 Camp. 4 Q: But you were also here with the 5 blessing of the Clan Mothers and the traditional Council 6 at Oneida? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And so you were here to 9 lend your support? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that would include your physical 12 presence -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- being here? And also any guidance 15 or experience you could offer? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And when you offered that guidance, 18 did you typically do so to Glenn George? 19 A: I was here for the People. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: In the Camp, whoever. 22 Q: All right. Did you have discussions 23 with Glenn George about your role? 24 A: Yes, I believe I did. 25 Q: All right. And did you have


1 discussions with Roderick George about your role? 2 A: I could have. 3 Q: Okay. 'Cause let's stick to what you 4 recall, then. With respect to Glenn George, what -- what 5 did you describe your role as being to him? 6 A: Just a supporter. 7 Q: Okay. 8 Q: And did others from your territory 9 similarly and with the blessing of the traditional 10 Council and Clan Mothers come and lend their support to 11 the Stoney Point people? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And can you give me the names of 14 those individuals? 15 A: I could give you the name of one (1) 16 that brought the guys, Layton Elijah. 17 Q: Now, Mr. Elijah is he -- can you tell 18 me what his position is within your traditional Council? 19 A: In our nation we have three (3) 20 different clans, a turtle, bear and a wolf. I come from 21 the Turtle Clan and each clan has Clan Mothers, Faith 22 Keepers and Chiefs. 23 He comes from the Wolf Clan and the Wolf 24 Clan people are the security of the Nation. That's why 25 he was put in that position and that's why he came with


1 the guys that he came with. 2 Q: Thank you. And who were the other 3 guys? 4 A: I -- I couldn't say; I don't know 5 their names. They're -- I see them around, but -- 6 Q: Okay. Well, may I suggest to you 7 that they -- they included Al George? 8 A: Al George was with us when we came. 9 Q: And how about Larry French? 10 A: He was with us. 11 Q: Is he also known as "Dutchy" or 12 "'Dutch"? 13 A: Yeah, yeah. Well, the guys I came 14 with, we came with to fish. We were fish -- we like 15 fishing, so -- 16 Q: I -- I understand that that was one 17 (1) of the reasons why, but -- 18 A: Yeah, yeah. 19 Q: -- you were also there -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- to support -- 22 A: Yeah, sure. 23 Q: -- with the blessing of the Clan 24 Mothers and the traditional Council. 25 A: Yeah.


1 Q: Okay. And Chuck George? Was he one 2 (1) of those members? 3 A: Yes, yes. 4 Q: Anyone else come to mind who you 5 travelled with? 6 A: I came with Larry French. 7 Q: Okay. Anyone else that I've missed? 8 A: I think you named them off. 9 Q: And -- okay. Did your cousin, 10 Gabriel, come from time to time, too? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Gabriel Doxtator? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. What did you believe you could 15 add by way of support to the efforts of the people at 16 Camp Ipperwash? 17 A: We were just here supporting them, 18 you know. 19 Q: Can you give me a sense what that 20 support -- 21 A: Whatever their decision was, you 22 know, we'd take direction from them, not -- we didn't 23 come here and take over. Whatever. 24 Q: Of course. And what directions did 25 you receive, then, in that respect?


1 A: Just like security, I guess, around 2 the territory. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. And what measures did you 4 take to enforce security around the territory? 5 A: I just rode around with somebody from 6 the territory that knew the territory and -- it's easy to 7 get lost there if you don't know the territory, you know. 8 Q: So you ran -- you -- you went around 9 in a vehicle with someone from the territory? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Around the parameter -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- of the Camp Ipperwash? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Down to the beach? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And did that include Dudley George 18 from time to time? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Now, I take it from your earlier 21 answers that you were not part of the original group who 22 walked into the Camp Ipperwash Base in May of 1993? 23 A: I wasn't there. 24 Q: Were you consulted or advised in any 25 way about this -- this action in advance of it being


1 taken? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Were you present at all at the -- 4 when the sacred fire was going? 5 A: At what -- 6 Q: The sacred fire in 1993, at the 7 territory? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Were you present at the burying the 10 hatchet ceremony? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Were you present the night that a 13 helicopter was allegedly shot in August of '94? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Three (3), excuse me, 1993? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Now, did you stay over at all 18 overnight during the winter months in '93 or '94? 19 A: I could have. 20 Q: All right. And I think you indicated 21 you stayed with Dudley George in his trailer when you'd 22 come. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And what kinds of activities would 25 you and Dudley George do together, typically?


1 A: When we were there we were just 2 visiting, playing cards or, you know -- yeah, we were 3 fishing. 4 Q: And you also patrolled, you said? 5 A: Yes, sometimes. 6 Q: All right. When did you first meet 7 Dudley George? 8 A: Geez, I don't know, quite a -- quite 9 a few years ago. I don't remember. 10 Q: Prior to 1993? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. And would that be in 13 connection with your visits to Kettle and Stoney Point -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- Reserve? 16 A: Yeah, I know a lot of people down 17 there. 18 Q: And can -- how would you describe the 19 nature of your acquaintance or relationship with Dudley 20 George? 21 A: Well, we're all good friends with 22 everybody. 23 Q: And when did that friendship really 24 develop? 25 A: Well, he was a pretty funny guy. You


1 just naturally -- I guess all the guys I know down there 2 are pretty good, so. 3 Q: Okay. And how would you describe 4 Dudley George? 5 A: Pretty happy guy, happy go lucky guy, 6 comedian, funny guy. 7 Q: Did your father have any 8 relationships with the people at Kettle and Stony Point? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Can you tell me about that? 11 A: I think he went overseas with this 12 man back here, one of the Elders here and -- 13 Q: Clifford George? 14 A: Glenn's father, Judas, all them guys. 15 They were in the military. My father knew them all. 16 They were in the same -- went overseas together and my 17 father was wounded twice in action. 18 Q: What was your father's name? 19 A: Same as mine. 20 Q: Now when you visited the army Camp 21 lands before they moved into the barracks, did you hunt 22 on those lands? 23 A: Before when? 24 Q: Before they moved into the barracks? 25 A: I don't think there was any hunting


1 around there. 2 Q: You -- you did not hunt on those 3 lands? 4 A: No. 5 Q: But you were a hunter? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And what -- what guns did you own or 8 possessed during that period of time? We're talking 9 basically summer '93 through to spring of '95? 10 A: I don't have any guns. 11 Q: You didn't own any guns at that time? 12 A: No, no. 13 Q: Did you possess any? 14 A: I borrowed rifles from my -- I have a 15 lot of relatives and they're -- we're all hunters. I can 16 go to my cousin or uncle, anybody and borrow a rifle 17 whenever I need to go -- if I need to go hunting. 18 Q: If you were hunter why is it that you 19 never had a rifle of your own during that time period? 20 A: I give them away to my nephews. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: Getting too old to hunt. 23 Q: Would you say that you were an avid 24 hunter during that time frame? 25 A: Yeah. I still hunt yet.


1 Q: All right. And what -- what -- what 2 animals did you hunt? 3 A: Deer, rabbits, muskrat, moose. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. And where were your typical 5 hunting grounds during that period of time? 6 A: Where I come from on our territory, 7 Oneida. 8 Q: Perhaps you can just tell us where 9 your territory is in relation to Kettle and Stony Point? 10 A: Kind of south, south of London, 11 Ontario, twenty (20) miles. 12 Q: Going back to Dudley George for a 13 moment. We've heard testimony that Mr. George hunted 14 from time to time. Did you ever hunt with him? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you ever see him hunt? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you see him in possession of a 19 gun of any kind? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you ever discuss with Dudley 22 George what it was he was trying to do there at the Camp 23 Ipperwash when he stayed there? 24 A: Can I have the question again? 25 Q: Did you ever have discussions with


1 Dudley George about what it was he was trying to achieve 2 when he was staying at the Camp Ipperwash in the trailer? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And what did you learn from him? 5 A: He just wanted to see the land come 6 back to the people for the future generations, for the 7 kids. Like, it was their land, I mean, yeah. 8 Q: And did you ever discuss with him 9 what plans, if any, he had in relation to securing the 10 land? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. You indicated that you 13 would patrol the Camp Ipperwash area, including the 14 beach, from time to time and sometimes that was with 15 Dudley George. Is that right? 16 A: Yeah, when we were around there, 17 yeah. 18 Q: Now did you ever become involved in 19 any exchanges or altercations with any of the military 20 personnel at the Base? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you become involved or witness 23 any altercations with any members of the Ontario 24 Provincial Police while you were on the Base? 25 A: No.


1 Q: I didn't hear you. 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. And were you ever 4 involved in any altercations with civilians, for example, 5 on the beach front during the course of these patrols? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And did you witness at any 8 time Dudley George being involved in any such 9 altercations with military people, police, or civilians 10 in and around the beach and the Camp Ipperwash? 11 A: No. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now there are reports in the 16 documentation emanating from the military at the Camp 17 Ipperwash Base that you had a meeting with Glenn George 18 on June the 2nd, 1995, after making a trip to Montreal. 19 Do you recall that? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Do you recall going to Montreal in 22 June of '95? 23 A: I go to Montreal all the time. 24 Q: Okay. And what would the purpose of 25 your trips to Montreal --


1 A: I have family -- 2 Q: -- have been? 3 A: -- down there. 4 Q: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 6 didn't hear that answer. 7 THE WITNESS: I have family -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: -- in Montreal. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Thank 11 you. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: Did you ever offer to Glenn George or 15 to anyone else at Stoney Point -- at the Camp Ipperwash 16 to bring firearms of any kind for their assistance? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Were you ever requested to do so, by 19 any member of the Stoney Point group occupying Camp 20 Ipperwash? 21 A: No. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Was there any discussion whatsoever


1 with Glenn George or others about the possibility of 2 bringing firearms into the Camp Ipperwash area in or 3 around this time? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Is it fair to say, Mr. Doxtator, that 6 you had the ability to access assault weapons during this 7 general time frame? 8 A: Pardon? 9 Q: Is it fair to say that you had the 10 ability to facilitate delivery of firearms at this time? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Have you ever been charged criminally 13 for activities arising from alleged gun running? 14 A: No. 15 Q: I'd like to move now to July the 29th 16 of 1995. Were you present when the individuals occupying 17 Camp Ipperwash moved into and took over the built-up area 18 of Camp Ipperwash? 19 A: No. 20 Q: When did you find out about this 21 event? 22 A: I believe it was on the radio or 23 newspaper or whatever. News media. 24 Q: And what was your response when you 25 found out?


1 A: It was good. I was happy to hear it, 2 yeah. 3 Q: Did you have any advance warning that 4 this was going to take place? 5 A: No. 6 Q: During your visits with Glenn George 7 and others, they never mentioned they were going to do 8 this? 9 A: I can't remember, no. 10 Q: Okay. Is this something that they 11 consulted, to your knowledge, with your traditional 12 Council? 13 A: They might have. 14 Q: Okay. And who -- who would have been 15 the person or persons that they would have consulted with 16 over this event? 17 A: I guess one (1) would be Bruce 18 Elijah, he's a spiritual man from my territory and he was 19 a negotiator along with Bob Antone who was also involved 20 here with the Oka crisis and Gunnawage Mohawk territory. 21 Q: Okay. But you weren't involved in 22 these consultations yourself? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you receive any directions from 25 the traditional Council or the Clan Mothers as a result


1 of this new event? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you -- did you move into the 4 barracks? 5 A: Well, when we came fishing in the 6 Park then we ended up staying there. Couldn't leave, 7 anyways, it was... 8 Q: What -- I'm talking about in July -- 9 A: Like -- 10 Q: -- in August of '95 did you visit the 11 barracks? 12 A: Well it was -- yeah. 13 Q: All right. And did you say you 14 couldn't leave then? 15 A: No, I thought you meant when this 16 happened -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- this incident. 19 Q: Okay, we'll get to that -- 20 A: Oh, okay. 21 Q: -- a little bit, thank you. And 22 again, you were at the barracks to show your support as a 23 member of the Warrior Society from your traditional 24 territory? 25 A: Yes. I guess.


1 Q: And you were there with the blessing 2 of your Clan Mothers and of the traditional Council at 3 Oneida? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And did you sleep over 6 from time to time in the barracks? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Can you tell me where -- where it is 9 you slept? 10 A: Different places. Sometimes at Glenn 11 George's place. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. And sometimes other -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- places at the barracks? Is it 15 fair to say that you were at the barracks more frequently 16 in August of '95 than you had been, typically, when you - 17 - when they were at the -- the Camp Ipperwash lands prior 18 to that? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And was one of the reasons why 21 you were there more frequently was because that you 22 thought that they required more support, a more visible 23 presence? 24 A: Well, I was just there for visiting 25 and fishing and ...


1 Q: And all -- to lend your -- 2 A: Kind of -- 3 Q: -- physical -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- presence? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: To lend your advice as a warrior? 8 Yes? 9 A: I guess, yeah. 10 Q: All right. Now did you provide -- 11 can you tell me what kind of advice you presented to 12 members of the Stoney Point in relation to their 13 occupation of the barracks? 14 A: I believe at one (1) point we were 15 talking about -- you mean before they occupied the 16 barracks? I think I was asked about that before, if the 17 -- for men, to bring men down here and if I knew where I 18 could get men to come down here to support. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: I said -- I told -- I told Glenn and 21 a few other guys, I says, you don't need -- you don't 22 need all those men and you just need the people that are 23 here that live here, and the women and children. Go 24 back, it's your homeland. 25 Q: Okay. And to your knowledge, was


1 that advice followed? 2 A: I don't know. I guess. 3 Q: Okay. Well, were you asked to bring 4 men? 5 A: Well, I -- yeah. I was -- the day I 6 was asked if I know where I could get some guys to come 7 down and support them, you know, more guys. 8 Q: And did you bring more men from your 9 territory? 10 A: People just showed up at the Camp 11 from everywhere. 12 Q: And when you say "from everywhere" do 13 you mean from other territories as well? 14 A: Yeah. Even the States, they were 15 there. 16 Q: Were there people from the Friendship 17 and Honour Society from Walpole Island? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: And what other Warrior Societies that 20 you were aware of were represented? 21 A: There was people there from Toronto, 22 different areas. 23 Q: Okay. Now, in the summer of 1995, 24 did you own or possess any guns? 25 A: No.


1 Q: What about a 303 rifle? 2 A: No. 3 Q: .22 calibre rifle? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Are you sure you didn't own or 6 possess one then? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you bring into the barracks at 9 any time between July the 29th and September the 3rd of 10 1995, any firearms of any kind? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Why not? 13 A: I don't have any. 14 Q: Well -- 15 A: For what? 16 Q: Were you ever asked to? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you observe any others at the 19 barracks with guns of any kind during the course of that 20 time period, July 29th to September 3rd, 1995? 21 A: No. 22 Q: To your knowledge, did hunting 23 activities continue over August and early September of 24 1995, at the Camp Ipperwash lands? 25 A: I couldn't say for sure.


1 Q: Did your role as a Warrior change in 2 any way at Camp Ipperwash after the takeover of the 3 barracks? 4 A: Pardon? 5 Q: Did your role as a Warrior change in 6 any way after the takeover of the barracks? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Mr. Doxtator, have you ever 9 facilitated the delivery of firearms to native people in 10 any protests up to and including 1995? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Were you part of the initial group of 13 Aboriginal people who walked into the Ipperwash 14 Provincial Park on Monday, September the 4th, 1995? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you know that this event was 17 going to happen in advance? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Notwithstanding the fact that you 20 were there from time to time and that your Society was 21 giving support to the Stoney Point people, you had no 22 advance warning of this? 23 A: No I didn't, not ever. 24 Q: To your knowledge was the traditional 25 Council consulted in advance of this -- this move?


1 A: Pardon? 2 Q: Was your traditional Council at 3 Oneida consulted in advance of this intended move? 4 A: I -- I don't know because I wasn't a 5 negotiator. Bruce Elijah and Bob Antone were. 6 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And you weren't 7 given any information one (1) way or another? 8 A: No. 9 Q: How is it -- well how is it that you 10 found out about the occupation of the Park? 11 A: It was on the radio at Teepee. 12 Q: And after you found out about this 13 occupation, did you go to the army Camp? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And when did you arrive at the army 16 Camp? 17 A: I believe it was the 5th. 18 Q: Tuesday, September the 5th? 19 A: I think so, yeah. 20 Q: Do you recall approximately what time 21 of day you arrived? 22 A: Maybe 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon. 23 Q: And who did you arrive with? 24 A: Al George, Gabe Doxtator, Chucky 25 George, Larry French and myself.


1 Q: And whose vehicle did you travel in? 2 A: I rode with them down here, Larry 3 French. 4 Q: What kind of vehicle did he drive at 5 that time? 6 A: I think he had a brown Dodge pickup 7 truck. 8 Q: Now, is Mr. Al George deceased? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Do you know where Chuck George 11 currently resides? 12 A: He's in Oneida, I guess. 13 Q: And Mr. French, do you know where he 14 is? 15 A: He lives on the Chippewa Reserve. 16 Q: Chippewas of the Thames? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Was Mr. Chuck George a member of the 19 Warrior Society at Oneida? 20 A: Yeah, I guess he is. 21 Q: And was Mr. Al George a member at 22 that time? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. Now Mr. Larry French, was he a 25 member of your Warrior Society or from another?


1 A: He's from another Nation. 2 Q: Okay, fair enough. All right. Now I 3 anticipate that your bro -- that your cousin Gabriel 4 Doxtator will testify that he recalls arriving with you 5 and others at the at the army Camp on Monday, September 6 the 4th, 1995. Now, does that alter your recollection? 7 A: I still think I was here on the 5th. 8 Q: Okay. So then you would say that 9 Gabriel is -- is wrong in his recollection? 10 A: I don't know, maybe. 11 Q: Is it fair to say that when you 12 arrived at the Army Camp on September the 5th, you did 13 so, in part, to show your support as a warrior for the 14 people there? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. And when you arrived at 17 the Army Camp, what did you find? 18 A: Police everywhere. 19 Q: Can you be a little more specific? 20 What -- what do you mean by police everywhere? 21 A: On 21 Highway and Army Camp Road 22 there was about -- around thirty (30) OPP cars parked 23 north of 21 Highway on Army Camp Road past the entrance 24 of Army -- the Base entrance and I could see further down 25 the road there was more police, all the way down, like,


1 to the lake. 2 Q: All the way down Army Camp Road to 3 the lake? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. And did you have any 6 interaction with the -- with members of the OPP? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Did you have interaction with them 9 when you arrived at the Army Camp? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And tell me what -- what happened. 12 A: I noticed they were just stopping 13 Indians and questioning them and showing ID and stuff, 14 but all the white people were driving right straight 15 through, you know, and I wondered what -- why that was. 16 A police officer came -- came over and 17 started bugging us. 18 Q: All right. Well, let's be a little 19 more specific now. You -- did you drive up the main 20 gates? 21 A: We were trying to. There was about 22 thirty (30) OPP cars and they were parked in a -- like -- 23 like this on the road. 24 Q: So you're -- in a zig-zag line across 25 the Army Camp road?


1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay, to prevent passage, presumably? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right, and then what happened? 5 A: Well, the police started harassing 6 us; asking us what we're doing there, you know. I said, 7 We're going to visit and we're going fishing. 8 Q: Is it fair to say that this was a 9 checkpoint set up by the police? 10 A: Yeah, I guess. 11 Q: And they were stopping cars to -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- question the occupants of the 14 cars? 15 A: Stopping Indians only, all white -- 16 they never stopped one (1) white car. We were watching. 17 Q: How do you -- how do you know that? 18 A: We were watching. 19 Q: All right. And did the police 20 officer speak to you at all? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And what did he ask? 23 A: He wanted to know who I was. 24 Q: Did you tell him? 25 A: Yeah.


1 Q: Did you show him identification? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. And did he allow -- or 4 did the police officers allow the truck to enter the Army 5 Camp? 6 A: They were just harassing us and 7 stalling us so we got out and walked in. 8 Q: Okay. Did they try to stop you from 9 walking in? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. And when you say, 12 "harass", can you be more specific? Were they -- 13 A: They wanted to know what we had in 14 our -- whoever had bags and what was in there -- what's 15 there? Wanted to see ID, you know. 16 Q: Were you carrying a bag? 17 A: I think I had some boots or 18 something. 19 Q: Some --- 20 A: I don't know, it was running shoes; 21 that's what it was. 22 Q: But did you have a bag? 23 A: I could have. 24 Q: Were -- did you allow the police 25 officers to look at your bag?


1 A: No. 2 Q: All right. Did they detain you? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And did -- did Mr. French eventually 5 get in with his truck? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. To your knowledge, was 8 his truck searched? 9 A: I couldn't tell you. 10 Q: All right. And once you entered the 11 Army Camp, what did you do? 12 A: There was nobody around; we wondered 13 where everybody was. We started looking around for 14 people. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: We couldn't go nowhere because we 17 didn't have a vehicle. Our vehicle was sitting on the 18 road being harassed by those cops out there. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: So, when he got inside, in maybe half 21 an hour, then we went for a ride down to the Park. 22 Q: Okay, so Mr. French came in with his 23 pickup truck -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- and all of you travelled in it


1 down to the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And when you travelled 4 down to the Park, did you take an internal route -- the - 5 - the route inside the Army Camp? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And did you observe any police 8 activity along the route to the Park? 9 A: Yeah, there was police all the way 10 down to the lake. 11 Q: And were you at all concerned by the 12 fact that there was a number of police out there? 13 A: Yeah, we're -- yeah we're wondering 14 what was going on. 15 Q: Okay. But did -- you knew that the 16 Park had been occupied? 17 A: Yeah, we heard. 18 Q: And so did you not assume that the 19 police -- that was the police response to the Park 20 occupation? 21 A: Must have been. That many police? 22 Q: And why is it that you continued into 23 the Army Camp, then, given that there were so many police 24 out there? 25 A: That's where I was going.


1 Q: Okay. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now once you got down to the Park, 6 let me ask you this. Do you recall what entrance to the 7 Park you took? 8 A: The entrance to be into the Army -- 9 the Army Base, the gate. 10 Q: The gate, is it off of Matheson 11 Drive? 12 A: Army Camp Road. 13 Q: Army Camp Road. How were you able to 14 get into the Park from Army Camp Road? 15 A: There's a road straight down to the 16 Park from inside the gate. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: A fenced off area. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: It runs right along the side of Army 21 Camp Road. 22 Q: Hmm hmm, okay. And so you entered 23 the Park at the southwest corner, approximately? Where 24 the main gate is? 25 A: Yeah, yeah. Drove down into the


1 Park. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: I just want to clarify the -- the 6 entrance. Did you go by the maintenance building as you 7 entered the Park or in the Park? 8 A: I believe -- I believe we went 9 through there, yeah. 10 Q: Okay. So you didn't enter from the 11 Army Camp Road entrance, did you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You did? 14 A: At -- 15 Q: Was it not blocked by police? 16 A: We got out of the vehicle and we 17 walked in. 18 Q: Okay. And did -- did the police try 19 to stop you from entering the Park? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: I'm talking about the entrance of the 23 Army Camp itself. We walked right in the gate. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: And we took the road down to the


1 Park. 2 Q: Yes, the one that's in -- parallel to 3 Army Camp Road? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And then did you cross 6 Matheson Drive? That's the road that borders in between 7 the -- 8 A: Oh, over the road, yeah. 9 Q: -- Camp and the Park? 10 A: Where the building is there, we went 11 right through there into the Park. 12 Q: The maintenance building? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. I think we know the area. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: And what did you observe when you 17 first entered the Park? 18 A: Just people sitting around, I guess, 19 in there. 20 Q: All right. And did you join in with 21 the activities? 22 A: I guess we were talking to somebody. 23 People were just sitting around. 24 Q: You remember who you spoke to? 25 A: No, not right off.


1 Q: Okay. Did you find out exactly what 2 was going on when you got down there? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. And what did you learn? 5 A: I don't know who we're talking with, 6 but just said there was a bunch of police there with 7 their -- I guess they were going to take the Park back, 8 whatever. I don't know. 9 Q: Okay. And when you arrived at the 10 Park, were there any police in the Park? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. And were there men, 13 women, and children at the Park when you got there? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And is it fair to say that you would 16 have arrived at the Park, then, in the late afternoon? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: It was still sunlight? 19 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And when you entered the Park, did 25 you participate in any traditional ceremonies, such as


1 smudging? 2 A: Yeah, we always did. 3 Q: Smudging? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. And how long did you stay in 6 the Park on -- on Tuesday? 7 A: Well, we were -- there was -- people 8 were moping around, I guess, you know and sort of -- back 9 up to the front and whatever. 10 Q: You're saying you were -- travelled 11 back and forth between the Park and the army Camp? Is 12 that fair? 13 A: I could've. I could've, yeah. 14 Q: You could have? All right. Were you 15 at the Park that night? 16 A: Yep. 17 Q: Did you sleep over at the Park? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Where did you sleep that night? 20 A: I believe I slept at Glenn's place 21 there. 22 Q: Glenn George's? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Back at the army Camp barracks? 25 A: Yeah.


1 Q: All right. Now did you observe any 2 police presence at the Park or around the Park on 3 Tuesday? 4 A: Yeah, they were always there, all 5 around. 6 Q: And when you say they were always 7 there, where specifically did you observe them to be? 8 A: On Army Camp Road and down by the 9 lake and that area, you know. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: Driving back and forth. 12 Q: So they were in cruisers? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Were they also on foot patrols? 15 A: I didn't see any police walking 16 around. 17 Q: Did you see any helicopter activity 18 that day? 19 A: They were all over. They were flying 20 around all over, I believe. 21 Q: And did you see any boats -- police 22 boats? 23 A: I don't know if it was a police boat, 24 but there was a big white yacht sitting out there with 25 tinted out windows.


1 Q: Okay. Now were you involved in any 2 of the patrols or checkpoints set up by the occupants of 3 the Park? 4 A: At that point, I don't know. I don't 5 think so. 6 Q: All right. Did you take any 7 defensive measures to safeguard the occupation that day ? 8 A: Could you explain like -- 9 Q: Did you take any steps to ensure that 10 the Park would remain occupied by the Aboriginal people? 11 Or to keep the police out if you will? 12 A: They were already there. They were 13 already there. 14 Q: I understand that. But did you -- 15 were you engaged in any activities to keep the police out 16 of the Park? 17 A: They weren't trying to come in. 18 Q: All right. Were you involved in 19 cutting down any trees? 20 A: No, not at that time. But I've been 21 there to cut wood, help them cut wood. 22 Q: Okay. Did you observe any of the 23 other occupants taking any defensive or security measures 24 around the Park? 25 A: Not really.


1 Q: To your knowledge were there 2 checkpoints? 3 A: I don't think so, no. 4 Q: Do you know whether or not there were 5 bonfires set up in the Park that day and night? 6 A: There might have been a small fire on 7 the ground, there where people sitting around drinking 8 coffee and eating sandwiches. 9 Q: All right. And was that somewhere 10 around the Park store? 11 A: Yeah, it could have been. 12 Q: Did you have any discussions with any 13 of the Park occupants including Glenn George and Roderick 14 George about the possibility of bringing in firearms or 15 other weapons from your Warrior Society or elsewhere? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Were you requested to make those 18 attempts? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you make any such attempts? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you observe any attempts by 23 police officers to ask the occupants to leave the Park 24 that day? 25 A: Would you repeat the question?


1 Q: Did you observe any attempts by 2 police officers to ask the occupants to leave the Park 3 that day? 4 A: No, I don't think so. I don't 5 remember. 6 Q: All right. To you -- to your 7 knowledge were the occupants prepared to negotiate with 8 or talk to the police officers that day? 9 A: I don't know what their business was. 10 I was there as a supporter only, you know. 11 Q: By the time you arrived on Tuesday, 12 September the 5th, was there a group of picnic tables out 13 in the sandy parking lot area near the intersection of 14 Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive? 15 A: Outside the Park, you say? 16 Q: Outside the Park fence? 17 A: Outside the Park fence? I'm not 18 positive, but there could have been. 19 Q: All right. At some point that 20 evening were there picnic tables out there in the park -- 21 sandy parking lot? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And can you tell me 24 approximately how many picnic tables were out there? 25 A: Maybe four (4) or five (5). Where


1 the people were sitting there were more, maybe seven (7). 2 Q: And what configuration were those 3 picnic tables in? 4 A: They might have been around the fire 5 in the middle. 6 Q: So, in a circle? 7 A: Yeah, just sitting around, people. 8 Q: And there was a fire? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And do you know why this was 11 done? Why picnic tables were taken out to the sandy 12 parking lot? 13 A: Everybody does it, sitting around the 14 fire. 15 Q: Were you a part of any discussions 16 about doing that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. And did you participate 19 in taking any picnic tables out? 20 A: I could have, or they might have been 21 already there. 22 Q: Do you have any recollection one way 23 or the other? 24 A: Not at that point, no. 25 Q: All right.


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I 2 wonder if we might take the -- the lunch break at this 3 time, I'm about to get into another incident and -- or 4 into an incident. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely 6 and we'll take an hour and fifteen (15) minutes. We'll 7 reconvene at 1:15. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 9 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 10 Inquiry stands adjourned until 1:15. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 12:03 p.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 1:08 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed, please be seated. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 18 afternoon. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good afternoon. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Mr. Doxtator, just before the lunch 23 break, you indicated that at some point in the evening of 24 September the 5th you recall there being picnic tables 25 out in the sandy parking lot area surrounding a bon fire;


1 is that right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did anything happen of 4 significance in relation to those picnic tables that -- 5 that evening? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And were you present at 8 this incident? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Would you please tell us to the best 11 of your ability, what occurred? 12 A: I was sitting on a picnic table -- 13 the picnic table you're talking about and the police 14 officers pulled up with their cars and there was a bunch 15 of police cars pulled up on Army Camp Road on the bottom 16 by the Park. And an officer got out and told us we were 17 trespassing and asked us to leave or... 18 Nobody moved so he got back in his car and 19 a vehicle came down -- driving down at us. I was sitting 20 right on a picnic table about this size on the end and 21 J.T. was sitting beside me. 22 The police officer came down and smashed 23 right into the table right here and when -- there was 24 another police car on each side of them on the back, 25 three (3) vehicles pulled down and they pushed the table


1 and I told the guys says watch your legs and J.T. got on 2 the table and the police car almost got stuck, so, I 3 think he dropped it in low gear and he just floored it 4 and pushed the table again and I told the guys jump on 5 here. So we're trying to hold the table down. 6 But when the car was spinning the front 7 end went underneath the part where you sit and it went up 8 and so we just smashed the windshield with the table. We 9 had no choice, you know. But they kept coming so all the 10 young kids and stuff that were on that table ran back 11 behind the -- the fence. 12 Q: All right. So just to go back to 13 that for a moment then. Were you sitting on the -- the 14 road side or the lake side of the picnic table when the 15 police cruiser approached? 16 A: On the road side. 17 Q: All right. So the side immediately 18 facing the car? 19 A: Yep. 20 Q: And you were on one end and J.T. was 21 in the middle? 22 A: There was -- I was on this end -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- and J.T. was beside me and there 25 were other younger guys here --


1 Q: On the other end of the table? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you were all sitting on it? 4 A: Yep. 5 Q: All right. And so you were on the 6 side that was closest to the Park as opposed to the 7 cottages? 8 A: Yep. 9 Q: All right. And then the police 10 cruiser pulled up and a police officer got out? 11 A: When they first got there. 12 Q: And can you describe this police 13 officer? 14 A: Just a police officer. I -- 15 Q: No one you -- you had seen before? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. And told you that you 18 were trespassing and to leave? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. 21 Q: And when you didn't, then he got back 22 into his car and made contact with the table that you 23 were sitting on? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Now, were you sitting on


1 the table when the police cruiser made first contact? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And did the police 4 cruiser make contact with the -- the opposite end from 5 where you were sitting? 6 A: He smashed into the table right in 7 the middle. 8 Q: In the middle? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. And did you say that J. 11 T. was sitting there? 12 A: Yeah, he was sitting right beside me. 13 Q: Now, this is J. T. Cousins? 14 A: Yeah, he was about a fourteen (14) 15 year old kid, I think. 16 Q: Fourteen (14) or thereabouts? Okay. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Now, was any of the individuals 19 sitting on the picnic table physically hit by the car? 20 A: No, I told them to move back. They 21 threw their legs up on the table and swung around on this 22 side. The other guys behind grabbed the table and held 23 it back. 24 Q: Okay. And so what you're describing 25 is, is that when the police cruiser made first contact


1 with the picnic table, all of you were on the -- the lake 2 side of the table? 3 A: We were sitting on the -- I was 4 sitting on the -- that side. 5 Q: Yes, no, I understand, but when the 6 car made contact, were you still sitting on the table? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Oh, you were? Okay. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: At which point in time is the table 11 being held? 12 A: After they stopped and he dropped it 13 in low and just floored it and ran -- smashed right into 14 the table -- 15 Q: All right. 16 A: -- and everybody hung onto it and it 17 went up in the air and got smashed through the -- on the 18 windshield. 19 Q: All right. So you're indicating that 20 the car made a second approach at the picnic table? 21 A: No, he drove up, hit the table and 22 pushed it -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- and he got stuck, so he dropped it 25 in low --


1 Q: Oh, okay. 2 A: -- and he floored it and hit it again 3 and shoved it back twenty (20) feet, whatever. 4 Q: Okay, this is all one (1) -- one (1) 5 movement. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay, and you're indicating that -- 8 who -- who else -- were -- were you one (1) of the 9 individuals holding the picnic table when it -- when the 10 car was accelerated? 11 A: I was sitting on there. I was when 12 he hit and I got behind and held onto this end, yeah. 13 Q: All right. And were there others 14 holding onto the table? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Do you recall who? 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. And were you the -- with 19 -- were you able, with your force, to basically keep the 20 table stationary? 21 A: There was about ten (10) guys holding 22 it back, maybe. 23 Q: So, yes? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And then you're indicating


1 that the -- the -- the picnic table was lifted up to a 2 degree by the car -- police cruiser -- going underneath 3 the bench -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- part of the table? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And then at that point, did you flip 8 the picnic table up on the hood and into the -- the 9 cruiser's windshield? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: All right. And you indicated that 12 there were three (3) cruisers that approached the picnic 13 tables? 14 A: There was one (1) on each side of the 15 vehicle that hit the table. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: But more on each -- to the back of 18 the -- 19 Q: So, like a "V"? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: In the shape of a "V", more or less? 22 A: Yeah, yeah. Almost, yeah. 23 Q: And where did the other two (2) cars 24 -- the cars that flanked the -- the centre car -- where 25 did they proceed to?


1 A: When they -- when the guy hit the 2 table and pushed it back they just sat right there -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- until he retreated and they all 5 backed back up. 6 Q: And were there any other police 7 cruisers in that vicinity aside from the three (3)? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. Were there -- 10 A: There was a -- a whole line of them 11 around the bend -- around the corner there, on Army Camp 12 Road down by the lake. 13 Q: Okay. Approximately how many did you 14 see? 15 A: I couldn't count them, there was too 16 many. 17 Q: All right. Were any of the police 18 officers on foot? 19 A: When they pulled up there I think 20 some of them got out of the cars up on the -- on the road 21 there. 22 Q: All right. And after the picnic 23 table ended up on the hood of the police cruiser, what 24 did you do? 25 A: Everybody was just standing there and


1 the police were shouting, you know, racial slurs at us, 2 stuff like that. 3 Q: What did you hear the police say? 4 A: Just -- I'm not sure what they were - 5 - different things, a lot of things. 6 Q: Did -- what happened to the picnic 7 table that was on the hood of the police cruiser? 8 A: I believe it fell off after they 9 backed back. 10 Q: Okay. And did you go back into the 11 Park behind the Park fence? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And was there other reactions by the 14 occupants aside from putting -- you know, putting the 15 picnic table on the hood of the car? 16 A: The police, I think, marched down by 17 the fenced area there and there was a lot of hollering 18 back and forth. Then they start throwing stones and 19 sticks. 20 Q: Who was throwing stones and sticks? 21 A: Well, the police were. Some of them 22 in the back, they were throwing them over the other 23 officers. And while we were standing by the fences, 24 there's poplar trees right there, they were hitting in 25 the trees, the sticks and the stones here are falling


1 down. 2 And I thought somebody was throwing rocks 3 at us from behind so I looked back and I seen that the 4 stones were hitting in the tree and falling down, so. 5 I remember Dave George was standing beside 6 me and I said, look, they're throwing rocks, so, 7 everybody start firing rocks back. 8 Q: You threw rocks back? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And did -- did Dave George throw a 11 rock back? 12 A: Yeah, he might have, I think. 13 Q: Didn't he throw a big rock back? 14 A: Yeah, yeah, he did. 15 Q: And what happened when he threw his 16 big rock back at the police? 17 A: Well you couldn't see it but you 18 could hear it. It was over the -- where there was trees 19 and weeds and he threw it over when they were spinning 20 out of there. 21 Q: When they were retreating? 22 A: Sounded to me like a windshield blew 23 -- like it fell out, you know, yeah, the rock hit a 24 windshield. 25 Q: Of a police car?


1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. Was there any further 3 interactions with the police officers during the course 4 of this event? 5 A: Well they took off -- I guess a -- 6 took off. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Out of sight, back to their command 9 posts, I guess where they had him around the corner, 10 somewhere in the parking lot. 11 Q: Now did you know there was a command 12 post at that time in the parking lot? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. So they -- is it fair to 15 say that the police officers left -- left your field of 16 vision? They left, you couldn't see them any more? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And did they come back? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Immediately? 23 A: Not immediately. 24 Q: Okay. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Were you involved in any other 4 interactions or altercations with the police, leaving 5 aside the confrontation of the evening of September the 6 6th. Were there any other altercations that you were 7 involved in? 8 A: On the 6th? 9 Q: On the 5th or the 6th. 10 A: On the 6th, yeah. 11 Q: Okay. Can you tell me about that? 12 A: Well, we were just sitting around 13 again and the police came back again. There was a build 14 up all day, I guess, of police in the area. Army Camp 15 Road where we were down, sitting in the Park. 16 The police just were around there all day 17 long, you know, but later on they came in the evening. 18 Q: Okay. And we don't want -- 19 A: Marching down the road. 20 Q: Okay, so we'll get to that event a 21 little bit later. Let's go back to September the 5th 22 then. Now, after the police left from this incident, did 23 you return outside of the -- the fence and into the sandy 24 parking lot where the picnic tables were? 25 A: Yeah, I believe so.


1 Q: All right. And were any additional 2 picnic tables brought out into that sandy parking lot 3 area after this event? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. And did the bonfire -- was 6 that kept going? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And did the police come back at all 9 to suggest that night that -- that you were trespassing 10 and that you should leave the sandy parking lot area? 11 A: I'm not sure right now. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I can't remember. It's a long time 14 ago. 15 Q: Fair enough. Were you -- did you 16 observe any direct interactions on the 5th between police 17 officers and Dudley George? 18 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I believe that's when one (1) officer 23 -- I'm not sure if it was either the 6th or the 5th -- 24 Q: All right. But do you recall seeing 25 something?


1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: I believe the police showed up, and 5 when he pulled up to say, welcome to Canada and they 6 asked us to leave. But I remember one (1) of them 7 saying, called us out on the other side of the fence to 8 fight with him. Like he said he'd fight with any -- take 9 anybody on. A lot of tough guys I guess. 10 Q: Could you just lift your -- your 11 voice so that we can all hear? 12 A: Pardon? 13 Q: Can you speak closer to the 14 microphone so we can all hear you, please? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Thank you. Go ahead, I'm sorry. And 17 you said -- you were describing an incident when a police 18 officer said welcome to Canada. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And invited you to come over the 21 fence? 22 A: He pointed at a few people and he was 23 calling for Judas. He said, where's Judas George? He 24 says come on over here, I'll take any one (1) of you on, 25 you know. He started taking off his police clothes or


1 whatever he had on. And he started to, you know, like he 2 was waiting for somebody to come and challenge him or 3 whatever. 4 Q: Was Mr. Judas George there? 5 A: I'm not sure. I can't remember. 6 There was so many people around, I couldn't see. 7 Q: But you were there? 8 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. Did anything else occur 11 during the course of this event? 12 A: One of them hollered at Dudley and 13 said he was -- something about kicking his ass or 14 something, he'd be first. 15 Q: Did this officer actually address Mr. 16 Dudley George by his name? 17 A: Yeah. Dudley. 18 Q: Okay. It might be helpful if you 19 just -- 20 A: He's the only Dudley there, you know, 21 so. 22 Q: I'm sorry. You might just -- yeah, 23 pull your chair up to the table if you will help us out 24 there a little bit. I don't want to make you repeat 25 everything. Thank you. All right did you -- can you


1 describe the officer who reportedly made these comments 2 to Dudley George? 3 A: I believe it was a guy with a thick 4 moustache, short, stocky guy. 5 Q: Okay. And what -- what type of 6 uniform was he wearing if any? 7 A: Police uniform. 8 Q: Then OPP? 9 A: I guess. 10 Q: Do you know? 11 A: OPP. 12 Q: Okay. All right. And what -- what 13 reaction if any, did this comment bring from either Mr. 14 George or members in the group who were there? 15 A: Could you repeat the question? 16 Q: Sure. What reaction -- what was the 17 reaction of the group to the comment that you've reported 18 by the police officers -- police officer to -- to Dudley 19 George? 20 A: I'm not sure. I think there were 21 used being, you know, hollered at by the police. 22 Q: Well was there any -- any rock 23 throwing at this time by anyone from your side? 24 A: Only after they were throwing -- 25 start throwing stones.


1 Q: You're saying the police officers 2 throwed -- threw stones on this occasion? 3 A: When they first came up on -- you're 4 talking about the 5th or the 6th? 5 Q: Talking about the incident that 6 you're -- you're talking about the -- involving Mr. 7 Dudley George and -- 8 A: Well, that was on the -- on the 5th. 9 Q: Yeah. I'm asking whether members 10 from the occupants threw rocks at the police officers? 11 A: Only when I -- when I told you they 12 did when they first came. 13 Q: Okay. A little bit earlier in the 14 event? 15 A: When they asked us to leave and they 16 came to the fence they came down. There was a lot of 17 arguing and stuff. I think somebody was throwing rocks 18 over at us and sticks. 19 Q: Okay. I just want to make sure we're 20 talking about the same one. We've talked about the 21 picnic table incident and now we're talking about a 22 different incident, right? From the picnic table, are 23 we? 24 A: That was on the -- no, it on the same 25 time on the 5th.


1 Q: All right and when you say at the 2 same time, was it part of the picnic table incident or 3 was there a gap of time between the two (2) incidents? 4 A: It was when -- it was when they got 5 there when they came down they started hollering, 6 somebody was hollering. 7 Q: When they came down -- I'm sorry, 8 you've lost me. Came down from where? 9 A: When they first arrived. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: And they came down with the car. 12 Q: Okay, and then -- 13 A: After that. 14 Q: Okay, so it's part of the same -- 15 A: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 16 Q: -- continuous event? All right. Did 17 somebody throw sand in the face of an officer during this 18 event? 19 A: I believe so. 20 Q: All right. And was there any 21 reaction by the police officers to the sand being thrown? 22 A: The only reason the sand was thrown 23 is because when they came to the fence, the police 24 officer tried to hit the guy with his big stick and the 25 guy jumped back and landed on his hands and at the same


1 time he threw the sand up in his face. 2 Q: And do you know who this guy was? 3 Who fell over? 4 A: I'm not positive, but it could have 5 been J.T. 6 Q: All right. And the police officer 7 who swung his stick -- was it a stick or a baton? 8 A: A big club -- whatever they carry. 9 They had -- they had different kind of weapons. They 10 were carrying the telescopic whips with the ball on the 11 end -- 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: -- and they had different sticks with 14 -- like a cattle prod with things sticking out on the 15 side, turned the handle. 16 Q: All right. They had this during this 17 particular event? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: They had them both nights. 21 Q: Okay. All right. And so was there 22 any response by the police to the sand being thrown in 23 one (1) of the officers' face? 24 A: Yeah, he pulled his can of spray and 25 sprayed it at the guy and I -- as a matter of fact, it


1 came my way and it -- a bit of got in my eyes and I 2 breathed it in so I dropped to the ground underneath it. 3 You could see it in the air -- a mist. 4 Q: And do you know -- do you know what 5 kind of spray that was? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. Did it have any -- did 8 you have any reaction to inhaling some of the spray? 9 A: Yeah, I started coughing and stuff. 10 Q: All right. Did it interfere with 11 your vision? 12 A: A little bit, yeah. Didn't get me 13 directly in my eyes, but I got some -- 14 Q: All right, and -- 15 A: It happened just to the left side of 16 me. 17 Q: Okay. Are you able to describe the 18 officer who -- who used the spray? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: They had shields on, I think at that 22 point or -- 23 Q: Face visors? 24 A: I'm not sure. I couldn't see -- see 25 faces.


1 Q: You couldn't see the faces? Okay. 2 A: I don't remember his face. 3 Q: Is that because they were wearing 4 face visors or do you remember? 5 A: I don't remember. 6 Q: All right. Okay, and -- and how long 7 did this incident take place? How many -- how long was 8 it? 9 A: Not too long. 10 Q: A matter of minutes? 11 A: Maybe a couple of minutes. 12 Q: A couple of minutes? All right. And 13 how did it end? 14 A: They -- they ran back, the police, 15 back. 16 Q: The police retreated? On -- 17 A: Back to their cars. 18 Q: Okay. And that was the end of that 19 incident? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Were there any rocks thrown at the 22 cars at that time? 23 A: Yeah, I believe it was rocks got 24 thrown. 25 Q: Okay. I -- I don't want to confuse


1 everybody, but is the time that David George threw the 2 rock and you heard the cruiser car windshield -- 3 A: I believe it was. 4 Q: -- smash? All right. Okay. How 5 long did you stay at the Park on Tuesday? In other 6 words, when did you leave it? 7 A: I'm not sure, it was late at night, I 8 guess. 9 Q: All right. Did you observe any or 10 hear any firecrackers being set off, either during the 11 day or evening of Tuesday, September the 5th? 12 A: No. 13 Q: When -- where did you go after you 14 left the Park? 15 A: I believe I went up to Glenn George's 16 place and went to sleep. 17 Q: All right. Did you hear any 18 firecracker sounds that night? 19 A: No. 20 Q: At any time during the day or night 21 of September the 5th, did you hear any gunshots? 22 A: Gunshots? No, I don't think so. 23 Q: No? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. Did you hear any sounds


1 that could be mistaken for gunshots? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Now this Inquiry may later hear 4 evidence that there were reports of gunshots from in or 5 around the Park and/or Army Camp area that evening. If 6 that evidence were to come forward would that alter your 7 recollection or refresh your memory in any way? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. Do you know a Constable named 10 Vince George? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Did you say to anyone at 13 the Army Camp that night that you had guns? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And did you hear any automatic gun 16 fire that night? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you witness anything else of 19 significance on Tuesday, September the 5th? 20 A: Not that I can recall right off. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Now when did you wake the next 25 morning, that is Wednesday September the 6th, 1995?


1 A: It must have been about daylight in 2 the morning, I guess. 3 Q: Day break? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. And what circumstances 6 give rise to your -- your waking? 7 A: The buildings in Army Camp are pretty 8 long. I could hear somebody come in the other end. They 9 slammed the door and they start running through the 10 building coming our -- my way, like, coming through the 11 building. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I could hear them running on the 14 floor like this. I woke up right away. They came right 15 to my -- at the little room I was sleeping in. It was 16 J.T. 17 Q: Okay. And what -- what, if anything, 18 did you learn from J.T. that morning? 19 A: He just says, Buck, Buck, he says, 20 get up. The police are back in the Park, or at the Park 21 and that Dudley's there alone and the police are 22 threatening to kill him. 23 Q: And what did you do as a result of 24 that information? 25 A: Well, I got up and he must have


1 already woke other people up because I noticed other 2 people getting ready and heading down toward the Park. 3 So we went down there also. 4 Q: All right. And what -- what mode of 5 transportation did you use to get back to the Park? 6 A: I'm not sure. I might have rode down 7 with Glenn George. 8 Q: Okay. In Glenn George's vehicle? 9 A: Could have been. 10 Q: And do you know about what time of 11 the morning this was? 12 A: I would say maybe 6:30, 7:00. I'm 13 not sure. It was early in the morning. 14 Q: Okay. And again, did you go by -- 15 use the entrance by the maintenance building to get back 16 into the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And once you arrived in the 19 Park, what did you observe? 20 A: Well there was no police. They 21 already were there and gone. They took all the picnic 22 tables and -- I noticed, that were there. 23 Q: So all the picnic tables from the 24 sandy parking lot were gone? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: Dudley was there, standing around. 3 He was there. 4 Q: Okay. Did you talk to Dudley? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And what did you learn from him? 7 A: Oh, he just said that they were 8 there, you know. He just laughed it off all the time. 9 He says, they were there threatening him again, you know. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And Robert Isaac, I think, he was 12 there or got there. 13 Q: Okay. Robert Isaac? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Where -- do you know -- did you know 16 Robert Isaac before this -- this Park occupation? 17 A: Yeah, I know guys from all over -- 18 all over the Reserves all over. 19 Q: Do you know where -- where he was 20 from? 21 A: Walpole Island. 22 Q: To your knowledge, was he part of the 23 Friendship and Honour society there? 24 A: Yeah, I believe he was. 25 Q: And is that a warrior society


1 equivalent to yours? 2 A: I don't know what they do down there. 3 That's there -- another area in Walpole Island, it's not 4 where I come from. 5 Q: Okay. Fair enough. To your 6 knowledge, is Mr. Isaac deceased? 7 A: Yes. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: As a result of the police officers 12 removing the picnic tables that morning, were you part of 13 any efforts to reinforce, if you will, security measures 14 at the Park on behalf of the occupants? 15 A: I believe that all the guys that were 16 there were. 17 Q: Okay. And -- and what -- 18 A: Do you mean like on a secure -- on a 19 security or something? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And what -- what was going on 23 in that respect? 24 A: Just looking, watching what was going 25 on.


1 Q: So people were patrolling? 2 A: I guess they were. Me, I stayed in 3 the Park. 4 Q: All right. Why did you stay in the 5 Park? 6 A: I just stayed. There was a fire 7 there, there was coffee and I was -- somebody was passing 8 out sandwiches and cookies and stuff like that. 9 Q: All right. And where was the fire 10 that you're speaking of? 11 A: There was more than one (1) fire. 12 There was fires different places, all over. 13 Q: All right, but where was the one that 14 you were sitting at? 15 A: Inside the Park. 16 Q: Okay. Was it by the Park store? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Was there anyone out in the sandy 19 parking lot area at this point? 20 A: Only the police sneaking around in 21 the weeds. 22 Q: I'm sorry? The police ... 23 A: On the other side of the -- the road 24 that goes down to the beach where the cottages are. 25 There was a -- there was a -- little shrubs and grass


1 along there. I was sitting there and I thought I seen 2 something and I -- so I start watching. 3 And I could see these police officers, I 4 guess snipers, whatever they were. They were sneaking 5 along in the weeds there. I could see them with their 6 rifles crawling and peeking over and I spotted them. 7 So I told Glenn, I said, look right over 8 there. I said that's some guys crawling. It's about 9 seven (7) guys crawling through the weeds there with 10 rifles. 11 Q: Okay. Now when you say "sneaking" 12 were they on their bellies when -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- they were moving? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: With rifles? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: All right. And just so I understand 19 the area that you're talking about, you're talking about 20 an area just to the west of the Park by the Lake? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Where the cottages are? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: And you -- you could see them? 25 A: Yeah.


1 Q: All right. Do you know where they 2 went? 3 A: They just crawled back and went in 4 behind the cottages. 5 Q: All right. Okay. And about what 6 time of day did you see this? 7 A: Maybe within an hour after we went 8 down to the Park. 9 Q: All right. So in the morning? 10 A: Yes, morning. 11 Q: Now, did you observe any other forms 12 of police presence and activities during the course of 13 the day on Wednesday, aside from -- from this? 14 A: I guess there were police. There was 15 a big, white yacht parked out on the Lake, parked 16 sideways. It sat there, I guess, for a few days. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Everybody presumed they were police, 19 you know. 20 Q: Did you see any helicopter activity 21 that day? 22 A: Yeah, they were around. They were 23 always around, helicopters. 24 Q: All right. What was your reaction to 25 the helicopter presence?


1 A: It didn't bother me. 2 Q: All right. Did you throw any rocks 3 at the helicopters? 4 A: Oh, no. 5 Q: Did you see anybody do that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. How -- how high were the 8 helicopters flying that you saw? 9 A: There was a big, yellow one flying 10 right about the trees. It was shooting dust and sticks 11 all over on the ground where people were, you know. 12 Right over our heads. 13 Q: All right. Now -- 14 A: You could have hit them with a stone, 15 I guess. Somebody with a good arm. 16 Q: Okay. Were there still men, women 17 and children in the Park on Wednesday? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Were there any new people in the Park 20 during the course of that day that you hadn't seen there 21 before? 22 A: I believe there was some women and 23 children from Walpole. I didn't know who they were, but 24 they were there. 25 Q: Okay. Anyone else who was new?


1 A: I don't know. I can't say. 2 Q: All right. As compared with the day 3 before, what was the degree of police -- what was the 4 degree of police presence and activity? Was it the same, 5 less, more? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Well, later on there was when they 10 came in. 11 Q: Sure, but during the course of the 12 day? 13 A: They would be up the road. You could 14 see where they were parked on Army Camp Road, not -- 15 like, they were come so far and turn around and go back 16 both ways, you could see them -- that they were 17 patrolling. 18 Q: Okay, when you say both ways along 19 Army Camp Road and does that include East Parkway as 20 well? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And you were observing 23 this activity? 24 A: I was right there, you could see it's 25 daytime.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: Anything goes by. 3 Q: Did you leave the Park during the 4 course of the day for any reason? 5 A: No. 6 Q: So you stayed in the Park the whole 7 day? 8 A: Oh, I might have went up front. 9 Q: To the barracks? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. And -- and how many times do 12 you think you went up to the barracks? 13 A: No idea. I don't know. 14 Q: All right. Now, Marlin Simon 15 testified that he filled up certain -- several tanks full 16 of gasoline from the Park's maintenance shed. 17 Were you aware of that? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did you see tanks or cans full of 20 gasoline in the bush or anywhere in the Park that day? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Were there any firearms in the Park 23 that you either observed or heard about? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you bring any firearms into the


1 Park on Wednesday? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you have any in the trunk of your 4 -- of any vehicle? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. You didn't have -- did you 7 have your vehicle at the Park? 8 A: No. I rode down there with Larry 9 French. 10 Q: Right, okay. Did you have access to 11 firearms back at Oneida which you could have sent for? 12 A: For what? 13 Q: Did you have any there that you could 14 have sent for, if requested? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Were you requested to find firearms -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- by anyone? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you receive any direction or 21 counsel from your traditional council or the Clan Mothers 22 in relation to firearms? 23 A: They would never -- that's not what 24 it's about. We don't use guns. Our people are spiritual 25 people. We have a sacred fire, we don't need guns. There


1 was no guns. I don't know where these guns are coming 2 from. 3 Q: All right. Were there any clubs, 4 sticks, or rocks being gathered to be used in the event of 5 need? 6 A: Not that I know of. 7 Q: All right. Did you have anything with 8 you with -- with which you could defend yourself? 9 A: I picked a stick up off the ground, or 10 these -- 11 Q: These? Your fists? Okay. Did you -- 12 were you aware of any Molotov cocktails or the makings of 13 them being present at the Park? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Any discussions around that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: What about the components of any -- 18 any other types of weaponry, such as explosives? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Were there any other members from your 21 territory's warrior society at the Park on -- on 22 Wednesday, September the 6th aside from yourself? 23 A: Just the guys I came with, I guess. 24 Q: So, there was Dutch French? 25 A: He's a Chippewa from the Chippewa --


1 Q: I'm sorry, you're right. You told me 2 that, excuse me. Al George? 3 A: Al George. 4 Q: Chuck George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Gabriel? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Were there others from your territory 9 there? 10 A: Just us. 11 Q: All right. Did you observe Russ 12 and/or Les Jewel? 13 A: Yeah, I know who they are. 14 Q: You know who they are? Okay. And 15 were they at the Park on Wednesday? 16 A: I know Russ was. 17 Q: All right. And had you seen Russ 18 before Wednesday at the Park? Did you see him on Tuesday? 19 A: I think they were staying there. I'm 20 not sure. 21 Q: Okay. When you say "they," are you 22 referring to both Russ and Les? 23 A: The brothers, the brothers Russ and 24 Les Jewel. 25 Q: Okay. What kind of activities did you


1 observe going on in the Park that day? 2 A: People were just sitting around. 3 There was nothing happ -- going on. 4 Q: Did you observe anybody operating 5 mirrors directed at the police that day? 6 A: Yeah. I think there was a couple of 7 little kids over by the fence shining mirrors around. 8 Q: In the faces of the police officers? 9 A: They could have been. I seen them 10 shining around in trees and all over. You know, you can 11 see the big light sun shining in. 12 Q: All right. Were you involved in any 13 activities that were aimed at deceiving the police that 14 day? 15 A: Would you repeat the question? 16 Q: Were you involved in any activities 17 that were aimed at deceiving the police that day? 18 A: Nope 19 Q: We have heard evidence that there was 20 some car chasing activity going on on the road that 21 parallels Army Camp Road and that the reason for that was 22 to make the police think that there more people in the 23 Park than there really were? 24 Did you observe that activity? 25 A: No, I didn't.


1 Q: Did you see an incident involving 2 Stewart George and Gerald George on that day? 3 A: Nope. 4 Q: Did you observe any attempts by the 5 police to speak with or communicate with any of the Park 6 occupants on Wednesday, during the day? 7 A: I believe there was a couple, a woman 8 and a police officer. I'm not sure if they had uniforms 9 on, I think -- I'm not sure but they were around the 10 fence. I guess they were police. I don't know. 11 Q: All right. And -- and what were they 12 doing at the fence? 13 A: I don't know. I wasn't up there. 14 Q: Okay. Did you see this? 15 A: Yeah, I seen them. 16 Q: All right. Were they gesturing or 17 calling? 18 A: I just seen them about from here to 19 that wall where I was sitting at a picnic table at the 20 fence. 21 Q: About how many feet away is that? 22 A: Well it might have been further. 23 Maybe fifty (50) feet maybe. 24 Q: Okay. How long did they stay at the 25 fence approximately?


1 A: I couldn't say. I wasn't paying that 2 much attention but I know I seen them there. 3 Q: Okay. Were you aware of any efforts 4 on behalf of the Park occupants to make communications 5 with or to have communications with the police officers 6 that day 7 A: I don't know, that wasn't my -- it's 8 not my business. 9 Q: It's not something that -- that you 10 took note of? 11 A: I was only there to support the 12 people. 13 Q: With your physical presence? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. Now we heard evidence that the 16 Stony Point group have their own Warrior Society. 17 Are you aware of that? 18 A: I guess they do, yeah. 19 Q: And from what you know of that 20 Society, is it comparable to the one that you belong to? 21 A: Yeah I guess. 22 Q: How so? 23 A: Well some of the guys, the young guys 24 that I met, they were pretty spiritual guys, you know. 25 They were trying to get away from drinking and learning


1 about their culture and stuff like that. And that's -- 2 that's how it is, you know. We are -- we are a spiritual 3 movement. 4 Q: All right, okay. Now, did anything 5 else of significance occur during the course of the day on 6 Wednesday, September the 6th that you observed or were 7 part of? 8 A: Not -- not really. Only when the 9 police came in that night. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: That I can remember -- recall. 12 Q: All right. Now leaving the evening 13 aside for a moment, did you notice any change in police 14 presence or activities during the course of the day on 15 Wednesday, as compared from the day before? 16 A: Well we knew there were -- there was a 17 build up of police, yeah, in the area. 18 Q: How did you know that? 19 A: We heard some how. 20 Q: Word of mouth? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Do you know what the original source 23 of the information was? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. And can you just give me


1 some more details about what you mean, that there was a 2 build up of police? 3 A: Well there was just reports coming in 4 from different people, whoever, that there was police on 5 different roads, 'cause people were coming down from other 6 territories and they couldn't get there. 7 Q: Okay. Couldn't get into the Park? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Were you able to -- to leave the Park, 10 not using the Camp Ipperwash but leave the Park into the 11 public area? 12 A: I don't know, I didn't try or I didn't 13 go nowhere. I just stayed there. 14 Q: All right. I'd like to move then to 15 the late afternoon, early evening of Wednesday, September 16 the 6th, 1995. Were you still at the Park at that time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. At some point in time, did you 19 see Cecil Bernard George arrive at the Park? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I believe we went up front to get a 24 coffee or something. Like up to the barracks and we came 25 back and I remember seeing Cecil.


1 You're talking about Slippery? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Yeah, I remember seeing him there. 4 Q: All right. Just for the record, Cecil 5 Bernard George is also known to you as Slippery? 6 A: Yeah, that's how I know him. 7 Q: Okay. All right. And did you know 8 him prior to these events? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And how long had you known Mr. George? 11 A: Probably fifteen (15) years or longer. 12 Q: Okay. And what time of the day did 13 you see -- first see him at the Park? 14 A: Late afternoon, I'd say. 15 Q: Okay. So you didn't see him actually 16 physically arrive at the Park? 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. Was he inside the Park 19 when you saw him? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I'm not -- I think he was outside of 24 the Park. He had a blue pick-up truck, I believe. 25 Q: Okay. And where was he, then, outside


1 of the Park? What general -- 2 A: It looked like he came up from the 3 Lake. He was parked. 4 Q: Okay. From the beach area? 5 A: Pardon? 6 Q: From the beach area? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And did you see whether he had 9 anything with him? 10 A: No. Again, he was standing about -- 11 quite aways away, here to the wall maybe from me, but he 12 waved at us all, we pulled up, and got out. He was 13 talking to a group of people. 14 Q: All right. And he was talking to them 15 actually on the beach? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Where? 18 A: Right by the Park. 19 Q: By the Park? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Where? And I'm not sure if we're 22 outside the Park or inside the Park now. And, yes, we 23 have a diagram behind you. The intersection of Army Camp 24 Road and East Parkway Drive. 25 A: I would say he was right about --


1 maybe right in here somewhere parked. 2 Q: All right. So you're pointing at an 3 area that is designated as the sandy parking lot area? 4 A: Sand covered roadway, yeah. 5 Q: Yeah. Okay, in that general vicinity 6 between where -- where the roadway starts? 7 A: Yes, right here. 8 Q: Okay. And were there any police 9 officers in that area at this time? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. And did you go and speak 12 with Cecil Bernard George? 13 A: Well he was talking to the people and 14 he hollered over, and I waved at him, 'cause I know him. 15 He waved and he says he was going to tell them to get 16 batteries. He had two (2) police scanners and two (2) 17 walkie-talkies, but they needed batteries. And he asked 18 if we needed anything else. Could I get a drink? 19 Q: Please get some water, absolutely. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Go ahead. 24 A: Yeah, so he -- he asked if we needed 25 anything, so I joking -- you know, I was joking around and


1 I says, Yeah, I says, Send some of those men you've got 2 over in Kettle Point and some of them AK-47s you've got 3 hanging on the wall. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: I just said that, you know, joking 6 around. 7 Q: Okay. All right, and how did AK-47s 8 spring to mind as the -- 9 A: Oh, I don't know. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: He just laughed and he left. 12 Q: And did you see him exit? Did you see 13 where -- how he left? 14 A: I believe he went down and turned 15 around and went down the beach. 16 Q: And were there any police officers in 17 the beach at that time? 18 A: I don't know, I didn't go to the 19 beach. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I stayed in the Park. 22 Q: So you just saw him leave? 23 A: Yeah, he left. 24 Q: All right. And did he return? 25 A: Yeah.


1 Q: I'm wondering, do -- would you like to 2 take a moment or -- 3 A: No, that's all right. 4 Q: You okay? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: We're doing a lot of talking. 7 A: Yeah, yeah. 8 Q: All right. Now, did he return? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And approximately how much later did 11 he return? 12 A: Geez, I'm not sure, but it was dark. 13 Q: It was dark when he returned? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay, and being September the 6th, 16 approximately what time did the -- the sun tend to set at 17 that time of year? To give us a sense of the timing. 18 A: Probably rough -- roughly about eight 19 o'clock, maybe. I'm not sure. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: 8:00 maybe. 22 Q: So, some time after 8:00 you believe 23 he returned? 24 A: Possibly around that time. 25 Q: Okay. And at this point, is there any


1 police presence in the intersection at Army Camp Road and 2 East Parkway Drive? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right, Do you -- 5 A: As a matter of fact, I didn't see when 6 Slippery returned, I just know that he got back there. 7 Q: Okay. He was back in the Park? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And you met him? 10 A: Yeah, I noticed I seen him around 11 talking. You could hear his voice, you know. 12 Q: To your knowledge, did he get his 13 batteries? 14 A: Yeah, he got his radios and stuff. 15 Q: Were the radio scanners working? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Were you listening to them? 18 A: He passed them around and I ended up 19 getting a walkie-talkie, I believe it was. I had a radio 20 and he had one because I stayed and -- I was talking to 21 him because I went with him on the road. 22 Q: Okay. Now, let's just back up for a 23 moment. Before -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- you go out on the road with -- with


1 Slippery, did you overhear anything on the radio scanners? 2 A: Yeah, I think -- something about the 3 police gathering up -- 4 Q: What did you -- do you recall what 5 you -- 6 A: There was a -- you could -- somebody 7 had a police scanner turned up but they were getting mess 8 -- different messages on there, coming over the scanners. 9 Q: Okay. Were you -- 10 A: Police scanners. 11 Q: Were you actually listening to these 12 conversations or are you just aware that they were going 13 on? 14 A: Well, I overheard some, I guess, at 15 one (1) point. 16 Q: What did you overhear? 17 A: I'm not sure. I don't know. 18 Q: Okay, you don't recall? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. All right. Now, I'm just 21 wondering, Mr. Commissioner, whether we can take a break 22 right now, a fifteen (15) minute break? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 24 to take a shorter break? 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Or a shorter break --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- would be fine, but it 3 would be a good time to break. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 5 take a -- 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We're going to finish at 7 3:30, I believe, today, or -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 9 to stop at 3:30, why don't we take a ten (10) minute break 10 now? 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Fine, thank you. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 13 for ten (10) minutes. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 2:15 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 2:28 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed, please be seated. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Thank you. Now just before the break, 23 Mr. Doxtator, you indicated that -- that you and Cecil 24 Bernard George or Slippery started going down the road. 25 Can -- can you tell me, firstly,


1 approximately what time this was? 2 A: Maybe nine o'clock. I'm not sure, 3 maybe nine o'clock. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I don't know. 6 Q: Later in the evening? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: All right. And what was the purpose 9 of you going out onto the road? 10 A: He -- he -- Slippery told us that 11 there was a bunch of police around the -- the bend in the 12 Park gathering up there. 13 Q: Around what bend and in what Park? 14 A: Down the Army Camp Road. Did you want 15 me to show you on the map? 16 Q: Sure. There's a map behind you. The 17 intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive? 18 A: Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive, 19 down the road there's this parking lot and that's where 20 the police command post was. 21 Q: All right. So you're talking down 22 East Parkway Drive? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And do you know how it is 25 that -- that Slippery knew that there were police


1 gathering down there? 2 A: No, I don't know. 3 Q: All right. Perhaps you could just sit 4 down again to make sure that we hear you on the 5 microphone. All right. 6 So what was the purpose, again, of you 7 going out onto the road? 8 A: He was going to see where the police 9 were, how far they were coming like. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: So I went with him. 12 Q: All right. And the road you're 13 talking about is East Parkway Drive? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, did you go out at the same time 16 as Slippery? 17 A: I did. 18 Q: All right. And did you walk together 19 down the road? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Well, was he with you the whole 22 time or did you separate at some point? 23 A: We separated. He went ahead of me. I 24 didn't want to go around there where I couldn't see what 25 was going on, like, in the dark.


1 Q: All right. It was dark, was it? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Were there any other of the Park 4 occupants on the road at that time? 5 A: Only on the corner of Parkway Drive 6 and Army Camp Road. 7 Q: Okay. Around on -- on the corner of 8 those two (2) intersections or streets. Okay. do you 9 know who they were? 10 A: There was three (3) or four (4) young 11 boys. I don't know who they were. 12 Q: Okay. And did you take anything with 13 you when you went out along East Parkway Drive? 14 A: I had the little radio that Slippery 15 give me to stay in contact with him. 16 Q: Okay. When you say radio, do you mean 17 a walkie talkie? 18 A: Walkie-talkie, yeah. 19 Q: Okay and was it working? 20 A: Yep. 21 Q: All right. And did you keep in 22 communication with him? 23 A: Yeah but I mostly like from here to 24 the table. I could talk to him, I didn't have to use 25 them.


1 Q: Okay, you didn't need them. You were 2 fairly close together. All right. 3 And tell me how far along East Parkway 4 Drive did you go? 5 A: I would say maybe a hundred (100) feet 6 or more down the road because the road turns. There's a 7 bend in the road. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I went around the bend a bit, not too 10 far. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: It was too dark. 13 Q: Okay. And did you see or observe or 14 hear anything at that point in time? 15 A: When the police started marching I 16 could hear them coming. 17 Q: What did you hear? 18 A: I could hear their feet coming down, 19 like stomping, you know. Like marching. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: The sound of marching men coming. 22 Q: Is it fair to say you heard them 23 before you saw them? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Once you heard them, what did you do?


1 A: I called Slippery to come back, I says 2 they're going to grab you, you know. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: He stayed -- stayed ahead of me, but I 5 started going back, backwards. I start walking backwards. 6 As the sound of them was getting closer, I was moving back 7 'cause it was total darkness. 8 Q: So back towards the Park? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And did you get back to 11 the Park? 12 A: Eventually. 13 Q: All right. And did you do anything as 14 you were proceeding back to the Park? 15 A: Yes. As I could hear from the sound 16 of them they were closer to the corner to come around this 17 bend, so I ran back on the road and I hollered back at the 18 guys there. I says, turn them lights on. 19 There was two (2) spot lights on tripods on 20 the roof of cars already -- all you had to do was turn 21 them on and they would shine them right down the road, 22 'cause we had set them up before that. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: So I turned, and told them, I said, 25 they're coming, turn on the lights. So they went back and


1 the lights came on. I guess they heard me. 2 Q: The two (2) spotlights came on? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did that then illuminate the sandy 5 parking lot area and part of East Parkway Drive? 6 A: Yes, yes. 7 Q: All right. And you said you had them 8 set up there. When were those spotlights set up on the 9 cars? 10 A: Just before around dark time. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: After Slippery was there. He told us 13 they would be coming so, you know, we wanted to shine the 14 spotlights on them and... 15 Q: All right. So one of the things that 16 was done once you received information that the police 17 might be coming, was to put spotlights onto some cars so 18 that you could light up the area? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Were there any other steps taken by 21 the occupants in anticipation of the police coming? 22 A: Not that I know of. 23 Q: At this time were there any sticks or 24 rocks or baseball bats, pipes, anything collected, to your 25 knowledge?


1 A: No. 2 Q: Did -- 3 A: We didn't know what was going to 4 happen. 5 Q: Well you said that the police were 6 coming. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: You knew the police were coming? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. So did you do anything to 11 -- to -- to protect yourselves or to -- to get yourself 12 ready for that? 13 A: Well, I -- I told you I found a stick, 14 yeah. I got ready. 15 Q: Okay. All right. And -- all right, 16 so the lights are -- are shining on -- on the cars. Do 17 you know, is Slippery coming back at this point? 18 A: He was right on the -- on the bend. I 19 could see him and he kept walking backwards and then the 20 police came round the bend. 21 Q: All right. So he was around the sandy 22 parking lot or roadway area there and that's when you saw 23 the police coming? 24 A: Yes, they were coming down East 25 Parkway --


1 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- from the west, coming this way. 3 Q: Right, towards the Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. Now, were there any other 6 lights on in and around the Park area and at the 7 intersection there, aside from the two (2) spotlights that 8 you can remember? 9 A: I'm not positive, but I believe there 10 was street lights there. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I don't know if they were on. 13 Q: What about the Park store? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Were there lights there? 16 A: Yep. 17 Q: Okay. And were they on? 18 A: As far as I can recall they were, and 19 I think there were street lights at the store, in front of 20 the store. 21 Q: Okay. A street light in front of the 22 store? 23 A: I -- I think so. 24 Q: And were there any bonfires on at this 25 time, in that area?


1 A: We always had a fire going. 2 Q: Always, okay. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. And was there a fire out 5 in the sandy parking lot at this time? 6 A: I don't think -- I'm -- I can't be 7 positive. I don't know. 8 Q: All right. Now, did you have occasion 9 to call your girlfriend, Kelly? 10 A: Yeah, I believe I called her. 11 Q: And can you tell me in relation to the 12 police marching, when it was that you called her? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I'm not sure if it was then, because I 17 believe I called a couple of times. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: So I don't remember exactly at what 20 point that I called home, because she was kind of worried 21 about me being down there anyways, 'cause they heard 22 everything on the radio. 23 Q: All right. So you -- the purpose of 24 calling her was to what? 25 A: Let her know I was all right.


1 Q: Okay. And do you know what telephone 2 you used to call her from? 3 A: I might have called collect from the 4 store. There was payphones on the outside, three (3) or 5 four (4) phones, I'm not sure. 6 Q: All right. And did you make any other 7 phone calls that evening before the police marched down? 8 A: I believe I called back to Oneida and 9 it might have Layton Elijah that I phoned and told him 10 that something was probably going to happen, there's 11 police everywhere. There was only a handful of men there 12 and they -- they wanted more guys down there, but they 13 says they can't come, you know. 14 Q: Who said they can't come? 15 A: Layton. 16 Q: Okay. Did he give you a reason why 17 they couldn't come? 18 A: I can't remember at this -- right now, 19 but he just said they couldn't get there anyways because 20 of the buildup of police, whatever they -- wherever they 21 got the information. They said they couldn't get there 22 anyways. There was no way they -- the roads were blocked. 23 Q: Okay. And -- and as I recall, you 24 said Layton Elijah was the -- was from the Wolf Clan; he 25 was the head of security at Oneida?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And did you call him from 3 the Park store as well? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Now, I'd like you to tell 6 me as -- as carefully as you can, what -- the different 7 steps that occurred from you seeing the police -- when you 8 first catch sight of the police marching down East Parkway 9 Drive. 10 Now, firstly, where were you when you first 11 saw them? 12 A: I was on East Parkway about -- maybe a 13 few hundred feet west of the -- the corner, this way. 14 Q: They were off the map; they were 15 further down East Parkway Drive? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And did you get back behind the 18 fence line? 19 A: Well, I was trying to get Slippery to 20 come back. At one (1) point they were right in front of 21 him and he was trying to talk to them, walking backwards 22 and I kept going backwards. The closer they came, the 23 closer I was getting to the Park. 24 Q: Okay. All right. Okay, and I wonder 25 if you can tell us what happened next?


1 And perhaps, Mr. Doxtator, maybe you 2 could -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- take the other microphone at this 5 time and you're referring to the -- the map of the 6 intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp and I'm 7 just wondering, can we make that the next exhibit? I 8 intend there to be mark -- markings placed on it, so that 9 we have the record clear right away? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-91. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-91. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right, so we'll call 13 that P-91, the map that you're looking at. Go ahead. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-91: Stan Thompson Drawing Sept 20/95 16 Marked By Witness Mr. Isaac Doxtator 17 November 25/04 18 19 THE WITNESS: Where I was -- where I was 20 down East Parkway Drive, I noticed the police around the 21 bend down here and the blue and the yellow shields and I 22 believe they started chanting and hitting their shields. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: They were hitting their shields?


1 A: Coming down the road, here. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: And they marched down to -- by then I 4 was back -- and they were coming -- I moved back over here 5 in -- in -- in the Park. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Okay, so let's pick it up from, the 10 police are marching towards the Park and you're back to 11 the Park fence. What happens next? 12 A: The police marched down to about this 13 area right here somewhere. 14 Q: All right. When you say that they 15 marched down, were they -- can you describe their 16 formation? 17 A: They were coming down in rows. I 18 don't know how many to each row, but -- or how many rows, 19 but they were taking about half of the roadway or more. 20 Q: They covered about half of the span of 21 half the width of -- of the roadway? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And could you tell me -- 24 A: They were to the right side of the 25 road.


1 Q: So, on the north side of East Parkway? 2 A: Yes, yes. 3 Q: And what apparel or what clothing were 4 they wearing? 5 A: I don't know. They looked like 6 robots. They had a bunch of helmets on with shields on 7 them and protectors around their shoulders and I think 8 legs. 9 Q: Did they have visors on? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Hold anything in their hands? 12 A: Yeah, they had -- they all had 13 something, you know. Some kind of a baton or a big club. 14 Q: Were they holding anything in their 15 other hand? 16 A: Shields. They were hitting them as 17 they were coming down the road. 18 Q: Right. And how big were the shields? 19 A: Maybe three (3) feet wide and maybe 20 three (3)- four (4) feet high. 21 Q: Okay. All right. And -- and at this 22 point in time where's Slippery? 23 A: He -- he was back with the people 24 right there and I guess everybody was just around by the 25 fence.


1 Q: All right. And which side of the 2 fence were you on? 3 A: We were on the outside of the fence 4 but everybody went on the inside of the fence 5 Q: Okay, inside the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Now you indicated the 8 police advanced to a certain place. Can you take your 9 marker and draw a line approximately where the police at 10 first advanced to. 11 A: Did you say draw a line? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: They might have stopped around here 14 somewhere. 15 Q: All right. And would you put the 16 number 1 beside that so that we know what that refers to. 17 All right. 18 And what did the police when they advanced 19 to that location which is part way across the sandy 20 parking lot? 21 A: I believe they stopped and there was a 22 commanding officer was ordering them around but he -- I 23 think he asked us to leave the Park or we'll be charged 24 with trespassing, I believe. I'm not positive. 25 Q: You think he asked you to leave the


1 Park or you'd be charged with trespassing? 2 A: I -- I think so. 3 Q: All right. And what was the response 4 from your group? 5 A: Nobody moves. 6 Q: All right. What happened next? 7 A: So the police -- we were on the inside 8 of the Park, so, the police marched down to the fence. 9 Q: To the fence line? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And in what formation were 12 they when they advanced there? 13 A: They came straight in as they were 14 marching but as they got to the -- where they stopped, the 15 commanding officer hollered something and they spread out. 16 They went this way to the left and they went that way to 17 the right. 18 Q: All right. So -- 19 A: Right along the fence. 20 Q: Along the fence from the turnstile or 21 from the gate there? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And how far down towards the lake did 24 they spread out to? 25 A: Just as far as -- there was -- not all


1 of them went across here. I believe there was a lot more 2 of them behind them. 3 Q: Okay. This was one line of officers? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And did the police -- sorry, go 6 ahead. 7 A: It must have been from right around 8 here to over here somewhere. 9 Q: All right. So make a line there and 10 mark it with number 2. And so that is where the police 11 advanced to next and stopped? 12 A: They stopped, yep. 13 Q: And then what happened? 14 A: The officer hollered something and 15 they spread out and they went this way and that way. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: To the lake, toward the lake. 18 Q: And did you do anything in response to 19 that action? 20 A: I stayed with the last man. I ran 21 with him. Like when he ran, I ran with him back. I was 22 on the other side of the fence to here. 23 Q: So you -- you moved down towards the 24 lake? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: To be opposite of the -- 2 A: The last police officer. 3 Q: -- the last police officer towards the 4 lake? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. All right. And what about the 7 other people in the Park or what did they do? 8 A: What other people are you talking 9 about? 10 Q: The people who are at the fence? 11 A: They done the same. We were face to 12 face with them or spread out. We were way outnumbered but 13 we still spread out. 14 Q: Okay. So you also went into a line on 15 your side of the fence opposite the police? 16 A: Yep. 17 Q: And you indicated that not all of the 18 police were there. Some of them were still behind? 19 A: Yep. 20 Q: Okay. And you said something was said 21 but you don't know what was said by the police officer? 22 A: Nope. 23 Q: All right. And what happened next? 24 A: They were arguing over here. I was 25 down there, I couldn't really tell who was doing all the


1 talking over here, to -- they were talking over here, 2 arguing, somebody. I was down here on this end. I 3 couldn't hear exactly what was going on. I don't know who 4 was arguing but -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: But somebody -- police on the other 7 side. 8 Q: So there was a verbal exchange but you 9 couldn't hear it? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. And then what happened? Okay, 12 can you make sure that you bring the mike up to your 13 mouth? I'm sorry, I'm being advised that we're not 14 getting it all. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: So what happened next? You've got 19 that you're standing opposite a police officer. What 20 happens next? 21 A: Well, I noticed there was a dog 22 barking at the turnstile, the entrance here. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And finally the dog went barking out 25 here.


1 Q: So you went into the sandy parking lot 2 amongst the police? 3 A: I could see the police move out the 4 way for the dog, because they were looking down at him, 5 you know -- 6 Q: Oh -- 7 A: -- I could see them. 8 Q: Okay. And what happened? 9 A: They start kicking and hitting the dog 10 and he was yelping finally. They must have knocked him 11 out. He quit yelping. 12 Q: Okay. So you heard yelping and then 13 you didn't? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: What happened next? 16 A: Then I seen Worm, I think it was Worm 17 ran out there. That was his dog. 18 Q: And by Worm do you mean Stuart George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And he went over the fence? 21 A: I believe he went through the gate, 22 the turnstile. 23 Q: Okay. What did he do? 24 A: He went over to rescue his dog. 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: There was a little fight. I guess a 2 fight broke out. 3 Q: Okay, a fight broke out amongst whom? 4 A: Well, there was just everybody start 5 fighting. 6 Q: Okay. So the police side and your 7 side? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And were you over the fence at 10 this point or still in the Park? 11 A: Over the fence. 12 Q: All right. And did you actually hit 13 any police officers during this first skirmish? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And did you get -- 16 A: Because they hit me. 17 Q: Sorry? 18 A: Police officer hit me first, so I hit 19 him back. 20 Q: Okay. Where did you get hit? 21 A: In the leg. 22 Q: Which leg? 23 A: This leg. 24 Q: Your left leg? 25 A: Left leg.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: With a steel baton. 3 Q: And -- and where did you strike the 4 police officer? 5 A: Over the head. 6 Q: With what? 7 A: I think it was a baseball bat or 8 something, it's like, laying there. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And how long did this first skirmish 12 take place? 13 A: It's hard to say. A few minutes. 14 Q: All right. And then what happened? 15 A: They pulled back. They took off 16 running. 17 Q: So the police retreated? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And what did you do? 20 A: We -- I believe we regrouped. 21 Q: Did you go back into the Park behind 22 the fence? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. All right. What happened next. 25 A: The police came back and Slippery was


1 trying to talk to the them next, you know he was trying to 2 tell them to leave. 3 Q: Did you overhear him? 4 A: Well, I could hear him from where I 5 was. 6 Q: All right. And what -- what -- what 7 did you overhear? 8 A: I just overheard him saying something 9 about the men that went overseas, you know, and they 10 should have respect for our people, you know. 11 Q: All right. And when Slippery was 12 saying that, on what side of the fence was he? 13 A: He was on -- in the Park side when he 14 start talking but -- he ended up out there. Out in the 15 outside of the Park. 16 Q: Okay. In the sandy parking lot area? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And what happened next? 19 A: I don't know. I wasn't that close. I 20 know that there was a fight again. There was fighting 21 again. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And they start clubbing him. They 24 were -- 25 Q: Clubbing who?


1 A: Slippery. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I know there was people running, 4 trying to get him, but they couldn't because there was too 5 many police circled around him. 6 Q: You -- 7 A: All you could see was guys swinging 8 down at him and kicking him and you could hear him holler 9 and ... 10 Q: And when you saw that, did you go out 11 into the sandy parking lot with others? 12 A: Well, I tried to. I was there. I 13 couldn't get over. There was too many police. 14 Q: You tried to get to him? Is that what 15 you mean? 16 A: Yeah, yes. 17 Q: All right. All right, so another 18 fight broke out and did the people on your side of the 19 fence go over the fence and engage in fighting with the 20 police officers? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And -- and during this 23 skirmish, did you hit any police officers? 24 A: I could have. 25 Q: And what -- what did you have in your


1 hand this time? 2 A: Just a -- a stick. I don't know where 3 the baseball came -- the bat -- the first, but there was 4 one there. 5 Q: All right. When you say -- were you 6 using a baseball hat -- bat the second time? 7 A: No, it broke. 8 Q: Okay, you broke it? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Did you break it when you hit the 11 police officer's head? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. And the stick that you had in 14 the second skirmish, can you describe it for me, please? 15 A: Just a dry old stick that fell off a 16 tree and was laying in the ground. They're all over down 17 there. 18 Q: How long was it? 19 A: Maybe three (3) or four (4) feet. 20 Q: And how -- how big in diameter? 21 A: About the size of this, maybe a little 22 bigger. 23 Q: You -- you've got the marker there -- 24 a half (1/2) inch in diameter, or? 25 A: Yeah, maybe a little bigger.


1 Q: Maybe a little bigger? 2 A: Yeah, bigger. 3 Q: Two-thirds (2/3) of an inch? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Something like that? 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: Okay. All right. And did you strike 8 any police officers with this stick? 9 A: Oh, the stick broke. It was a -- it 10 was an old dead stick, a dry stick. 11 Q: Okay. When did it -- 12 A: The stick broke when I was swinging 13 it. 14 Q: Okay, and -- and do you believe it 15 broke after -- 16 A: I just threw it, you know. I just 17 threw it at him. 18 Q: All right. Just so that I understand, 19 did it break after you struck a police officer? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: All right. And were you struck by a 22 police officer -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- this time? 25 A: No, I was only hit once.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: Oh, I got hit in the arms and stuff, 3 but I never -- 4 Q: Okay. Now, at some point in time 5 during this second skirmish, did a bus exit the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Did you see it when it first exited? 8 A: I seen a bus -- I think the bus was 9 moving on the inside of the -- the Park. And the garbage 10 can -- there was a laneway going into the Park, but there 11 was a garbage can, a big green garbage can in the laneway 12 -- in the way, so I think the bus shoved the garbage can 13 to the side and got in. It was just -- I think it was 14 getting stuck because it's buried in sand, it's all sandy 15 there. The bus was getting stuck, you know, barely 16 moving. 17 Q: Okay. Can you show us on the diagram 18 there where you -- did you follow the progress of the bus 19 at all? 20 A: Pardon? 21 Q: Did you follow the progress of the bus 22 as it exited the Park? 23 A: Well, I was all over. At one (1) 24 point I was on the lake side of the bus and another time I 25 was -- I came around this side --


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- of the bus. 3 Q: So, where did it exit, approximately? 4 Mark it with an "X" and a "3". 5 A: Right where it says, "Gate". 6 Q: All right. So, X3 is where the bus 7 exited the Park? And did you see how far it went? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Can you show us on the diagram the -- 10 the furthest part -- point that it travelled? 11 A: Well, I know the bus was moving on the 12 sand-covered roadway westbound here. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: And I believe it ended up over -- 15 right along the edge over here and that's where it 16 stopped. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: Right over here. Somewhere over here. 19 Q: Can you just mark that with a square 20 and a "4" as to where you saw the bus stop? 21 A: See, it was getting stuck in the sand 22 along here, but I think it -- eventually it -- it was over 23 here. 24 Q: Did -- did it make it to the tarmac or 25 did it stay on the sandy parking lot?


1 A: It made it to the tarmac. 2 Q: Okay, because the spot that you're 3 pointing to -- 4 A: Oh, up here? 5 Q: -- is still the sandy parking lot, 6 so -- 7 A: Okay, so it would have been over here. 8 Q: All right. So just mark it with a box 9 and a "4". 10 A: Somewhere in this area. 11 Q: Okay, and a square around it just so 12 we can see. Okay, and that -- number 4 is where you saw 13 the bus stop? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And it's on the north side of East 16 Parkway close to the -- the curve? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. Okay. 19 A: I believe there's mailboxes or 20 something right around here. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: I'm not sure. 23 Q: Was there a billboard there? 24 A: There was something there, a billboard 25 or a mailbox or something. I'm not sure.


1 Q: Fair enough. And did you see a car 2 exit the Park? 3 A: I believe it came up behind the bus, 4 around the -- the north side of the bus. I'm not sure if 5 it got stuck in the sand there or not? 6 Q: Okay. Did you happen to see where the 7 -- how far the car ended up? 8 A: The last time I seen that car was 9 somewhere in this area when the bus was pulling out. The 10 car came behind it on the -- kind of the north side of the 11 bus I would say. 12 Q: Okay. And that's where you saw it and 13 then did you follow its progress any further? 14 A: No. I -- I thought it got stuck in 15 the sand there somewhere. 16 Q: Okay. And can you just make a little 17 circle and a "5" where you saw the car? And a circle 18 around it. Okay. And do you know whose car that was? 19 A: I believe it was Waldo's car. 20 Q: Okay. And is that -- is he also known 21 as Warren George? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And do you know whose bus 24 that was that was driven out? 25 A: No, I don't.


1 Q: All right. Do you know why it was 2 that the bus went out into the intersection and beyond? 3 A: I just figured it was to separate the 4 police because there was so many police in that area the 5 bus was driven in there just to separate the, you know, 6 the police. 7 Q: All right. Did you see the bus make 8 any physical contact with police officers? 9 A: Not really. But I seen police 10 officers were trying to stop the bus by hand, running 11 over, you know. 12 Q: All right. And how about the car? 13 Did you see the car make any physical contact with police 14 officers? 15 A: No. I didn't see no police officers 16 around the car. I just seen the car coming up along side 17 that bus here. When the bus was here and I think that it 18 either stalled or it got stuck in the sand because it was 19 parked there. The last -- that's where I seen it. 20 Q: And during the course of the -- these 21 events, the bus and the car moving, what were you doing? 22 A: I was walking up along -- I was on the 23 other side of the bus when it was moving this way but I 24 came around this side of the bus, that's when the car was 25 coming up behind the bus.


1 Q: Are you engaged in any -- in any 2 fighting at this point or are you just walking along? 3 A: I was just walking along. Everybody 4 was running back, the police were running back. But they 5 -- I mean, they were all over -- there was running across 6 the roads and in the bushes, everywhere. 7 Q: Okay. So as the vehicles advance out, 8 you noticed the police start to disperse? Is that fair? 9 A: Yes. Yeah. 10 Q: And where -- did you happen to notice 11 where Slippery was at this point? 12 A: They took him away. 13 Q: How do you know that? 14 A: Because you could see them dragging 15 him down the road. 16 Q: Towards where? 17 A: Up here to the paddy wagon. There 18 were so many police but they took him down here and they 19 loaded him up and got him out of there somewhere. 20 Q: Okay. So a paddy wagon or a vehicle 21 that was on East Parkway Drive? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Did you actually see him get loaded in 24 or did you just see him being taken that way? 25 A: You couldn't see him.


1 Q: Right. 2 A: There was too many people. He was 3 being dragged and kicked even then. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: He was unconscious, he was out. 6 Q: How do you know he was out if you 7 couldn't see him? Sorry? 8 A: I don't think anybody could stand 9 there later and get kicked and hit and not make noise, you 10 know. 11 Q: Okay. So that's an assumption on your 12 part? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: All right. All right. And what 15 happens next? You've got the bus stopped, you have the 16 car stuck, what happens next? 17 A: Well, I -- all I know is I was 18 somewhere in this area, right around here and I heard a 19 three round burst of gunfire. 20 Q: Okay. Just mark an X and put a number 21 6 for where you were when you heard three (3) gunshots. 22 A: Somewhere around here. 23 Q: Is that a number 6 there? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Okay. All right and what


1 happens next? 2 A: After -- after the three (3) rounds of 3 gunfire, I just froze and I tried to, you know, when you 4 don't know how close the bullets came but there was three 5 (3) shots fired. So I just froze and looked around and 6 you could see other people freeze. The police were gone, 7 they were running back, you know, everywhere, in the trees 8 and then -- then the fully automatic gunfire started and 9 the bullets were -- at first I couldn't hear them then 10 after I could hear them going over the trees. They were 11 hitting trees back behind me in the Park. 12 And then the bullets start coming down 13 hitting the trees so I turned around and Dutch, he was out 14 behind the garbage can. 15 I tried to run through this turnstile to 16 get out of there because the bullets were coming down but 17 before I got there, I was somewheres in this area close to 18 the turnstile, maybe ten (10) feet away and I was being 19 hit by particles from -- the bullets were hitting trees 20 and this turnstile and things were bouncing back and 21 hitting me all over. 22 So I turned back around and I went down to 23 the ground and tried to see where the gunfire was coming 24 from. 25 Q: So you turned with your back to the


1 Park to see where the -- the shots were being fired from? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did you see anything? 4 A: No, but the bullets were hitting about 5 -- I could have put my hand out. They were hitting about 6 three (3), four (4) feet from me, on the ground. All 7 along here and the dirt was flying up, it was all sand. 8 Q: And when you say "all along here", do 9 you mean between yourself and the turnstile? 10 A: The turnstile was behind me and the 11 garbage can was, because I was going to try to get behind 12 the garbage can and the guy behind there said, watch out. 13 He said, watch that gunfire -- the bullets were shooting 14 right here. 15 Q: The -- okay, so there was bullets 16 going towards the garbage can area? So you couldn't get 17 to it? 18 A: Between the garbage can and myself the 19 bullets were in a straight line right here. 20 Q: Okay. Now did you see any muzzle 21 fire? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: That's what I was looking for. I 25 didn't want to get hit.


1 Q: Fair enough. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And then what happened? 4 A: We still had the lights on and they 5 had a -- there was a light from the police shining down 6 the road, because after that gunfire stopped, I was 7 crouched down and I noticed people laying all over the 8 ground and I didn't -- I didn't know if they were hit or 9 not, so. 10 Q: There were people down on the ground 11 from your group and -- and you didn't know if they were 12 hit or not? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And you're saying there was a -- a 15 light shining from the police end of the road? 16 A: Yes, and I noticed one (1) guy about 17 maybe twenty (20) feet in front of them, twenty-five (25) 18 feet away, standing in front of me. And I was crouched 19 down and I could see him in the light, you know, that was 20 behind him. 21 So I -- I jumped up and ran up. I said, 22 Dudley, I says, are you -- he didn't say nothing. So I 23 ran around him and I grabbed him by the shoulder and he 24 says, he had his hands on his chest. I asked him if he 25 was hit. He said he thinks so.


1 So Al George and Chucky ran up and -- can I 2 have a drink? 3 Q: Please, have a drink. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Yeah, they ran up and pulled his shirt 8 open, because he had a -- what do you call it? Redskins 9 football sweatshirt on, the neck was cut out and the arms, 10 so it was low. So they pulled it open and seen the bullet 11 hole right here in Dudley's chest. He was holding his 12 chest like this. 13 Q: And that's on the left side of his 14 chest? 15 A: Yeah, up -- 16 Q: Upper chest? Yes. 17 A: So I turned and I -- Robert Isaac was 18 sitting in that OPP WHO? car, the white one on the other 19 side of the fence. 20 Q: Yes, on the Park side of the fence, 21 yes. 22 A: So I hollered at him to get that car 23 over there. 24 Q: Did Mr. Isaac bring the car out of the 25 Park and into the sandy parking lot area?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then what happened? 3 A: Chucky and Al loaded him into the back 4 seat. Put his feet in first. 5 Q: His feet? I'm sorry, you'll have to 6 speak up, sir. 7 A: He had his -- they had to put him in 8 the back door on the other side of the OPP WHO? car, feet 9 first. And he was still holding his chest. I was trying 10 to get the back door open but it wouldn't open. 11 But he was saying something to me. I -- 12 before I was up there earlier I noticed there was about 13 seven (7) ambulances up there on Army Camp Road and 21 14 Highway. So I told Robert, I says, get Dudley up to one 15 (1) of them ambulances and get him to hospital. So he 16 took right off. 17 Q: And did anyone else help carry Dudley 18 George into the car aside from those two (2) individuals? 19 A: Al George and Chucky George did. They 20 put him in the back seat. 21 Q: Did others come as well? 22 A: Yeah, they were around there, behind. 23 Q: And was there anybody else in the car 24 aside from Robert Isaac and Dudley George -- 25 A: Not at that point?


1 Q: -- that you know of? Did -- did 2 someone enter the car thereafter? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: You don't know? Okay. 5 A: I went up front. 6 Q: Okay. All right. And what happened 7 after the car left? 8 A: People couldn't believe what was 9 happening -- what happened. 10 Q: Would you -- would you like to sit 11 down, sir? I think we're finished with the -- the 12 diagram. Would you like a moment, sir? 13 A: Maybe, yeah. 14 Q: Certainly. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 16 to take five (5)? 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Would you like to take a 18 break? 19 THE WITNESS: Maybe for a minute. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: May we take a break, 21 Commissioner -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sure -- 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- for a minute or two 24 (2)? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a


1 break. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Take a short 4 break until -- 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Five (5) minutes? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Whatever's 7 appropriate. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 9 for five (5) minutes. 10 11 --- Upon recessing at 3:10 p.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 3:18 p.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 15 resumed. Please be seated. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Thank you, Mr. Doxtator. I just 19 wanted to -- to have a few followup questions. Do you 20 recall giving evidence in a criminal trial entitled, "R. 21 vs. Deane"? Could you say, yes or no for the record? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yes? And do you recall that you were 24 asked to draw figures onto a diagram? 25 A: Yeah, I believe so.


1 Q: Now, if you look behind you, we have 2 produced a diagram and your name is on top and I'm advised 3 that it was entered as Exhibit 17 in the Deane trial. Do 4 you recognize that? 5 A: Well, -- 6 Q: Can you hold the microphone up to your 7 -- your chin, there? 8 A: I remember looking at a map, yeah. 9 Q: All right. And would you just tell 10 us, there are -- are two (2) markings and two (2) 11 initials. There's ID -- does that stand for your name? 12 Yes? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then another marking with DG. Is 15 that Dudley George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right and what were you showing on 18 that map? 19 A: I believe I was showing them where I 20 was when I seen Dudley walking backwards. 21 Q: All right. Now -- and you described 22 for us that when you saw Mr. George holding his chest you 23 had, in fact, turned away from the Park and back towards 24 East Parkway Drive? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: All right. And I wonder, Mr. 2 Commissioner, I'd like to make that the next exhibit, 3 please? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-92, Your Honour. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-92. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-92: Stan Thompson Drawing Sept 20/95 9 Exhibit 17 on top Right Corner Of 10 Exhibit, April 2/97, R. vs Ken Deane 11 Trial Marked By Witness Mr. Isaac 12 Doxtator 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Now, when you saw -- when you first 16 saw Dudley George, was he holding onto his chest? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did you see him take any steps? 19 A: He was walking backwards. 20 Q: All right. Do you know how many steps 21 he took that you saw? 22 A: He was walking very slow. He was 23 almost dragging his feet backwards when he was walking. 24 Q: All right. And by the time you 25 reached Dudley George, was he still on his feet?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And thereafter, did he continue to 3 stay on his feet of his own accord? 4 A: No. When I -- when Al George and 5 Chucky ran up and they opened his shirt up, when I turned 6 -- when I turned to holler at Robert to bring the car to 7 take Dudley up to the front to try and take -- get him in 8 an ambulance, by the time I turned back, he was laying on 9 the ground. He fell down. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: They were picking him up. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: So they held him and Robert brought 14 that car in and they loaded him in the back seat. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: On the passenger side. 17 Q: All right. And is it possible that 18 there were other men who assisted with carrying Dudley 19 George? 20 A: Yeah, there was other guys around 21 there. I couldn't see who they were. 22 Q: All right. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: All right. Now, after -- you said 2 that -- that Robert Isaac was -- was driving an "OPP WHO" 3 car. 4 Can you tell me what colour that car was? 5 A: I believe it was white. 6 Q: And do you know who's car that was? 7 A: It was just a junk car in the Camp, I 8 don't know who's car it was -- 9 Q: Oh -- 10 A: -- fixed up for a security car -- 11 Q: Okay, was -- 12 A: -- from my understanding. 13 Q: Did it have "OPP WHO" written on it at 14 that time? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And so then the car leaves 17 the Park, goes back up towards the barracks? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you stayed behind? 20 A: For a while. 21 Q: And at this time could you see any 22 more police officers? 23 A: They're -- they took off. They were 24 ever gone. They were in the bushes wherever they were. 25 They ran every direction. Up the road. They were going


1 up Army Camp Road, they were lying in the bushes, down the 2 roads. 3 Q: Okay. Did you see any police officers 4 down by the Lake? 5 A: Before or after this happened? There 6 was a parking lot on the east side of the -- the fence in 7 the Park. There was a parking lot right back in here and 8 there was a line of poplar trees right back here in line 9 to the Lake. 10 I turned back and I seen approximately ten 11 (10) guys running right along that tree line, with rubber 12 suits on, carrying weapons. 13 Q: Okay. And where -- where were they 14 heading? 15 A: Toward the Lake. Toward the water. 16 Q: And did you see where they ended up? 17 A: No, it was dark. 18 Q: Now was -- 19 A: The reason -- the reason I could see 20 them because the lights were still on from the store and 21 on the street and I could see them and they ran by them 22 trees. 23 Q: Okay. Were the spotlights still on at 24 this point? 25 A: They were shining in a different --


1 different area. They were shining here, well -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: The light -- police lights were way 4 back down the road here, shining east. Our lights were 5 shining west -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- out of the Park. 8 Q: Not towards the lake, in other words. 9 A: These men ran from over here back 10 towards the lake. 11 Q: When you first saw these men, were 12 they actually inside the Park or were they on the beach? 13 A: They were in the Park. 14 Q: Okay. Where the poplar trees were? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. Okay. And what, if 17 anything, did you conclude from that? 18 A: When I first saw them, I thought they 19 were our guys, some guys that -- or guys that got there to 20 help us. But I looked again and they had guns and they 21 were running towards the -- along the trees, running 22 towards the water. I don't know where they went. 23 Q: Now did you notice whether any -- any 24 -- anybody from your side, aside from obviously Dudley 25 George, and Slippery, whether anybody was missing?


1 A: At that point I couldn't say. 2 Q: Couldn't say? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Everybody was kind of almost 6 scattering around, you know -- 7 Q: Can you bring the mike back, I didn't 8 hear that. 9 A: Everybody was kind of scattered 10 around, you know, like. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Quite a few of them -- didn't know 13 what -- you know, because of what had happened. 14 Q: Fair enough, all right. And how long 15 did you remain in the Park after Dudley George was taken 16 out of the Park? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: I don't know how long it was but I 21 know there was people trying to phone from the -- the 22 store payphones to the hospital in Strathroy. 23 I believe Judas' sister, Tina, was calling 24 because they wouldn't accept a call or give any answers to 25 anybody other than a relative. So Tina was talking to the


1 doctors or nurses at Strathroy hospital. They refused to 2 give any information on Dudley at that point in time. 3 Q: Okay. All right. And did you find 4 out at some point in time what the fate of Dudley George 5 was? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: When did you find out? 8 A: I'm not sure how long after, but they 9 -- they confirmed that he had died. 10 Q: And were you still in the Park when 11 you found that out? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And so it was the same 14 evening? 15 A: Yep. 16 Q: All right. And what, if anything, was 17 the response of the people in the Park when this news was 18 received? 19 A: Well, I guess the buildings burnt 20 down, the store and I don't know -- 21 Q: I'm sorry. What happened? 22 A: The store burnt down, started on fire 23 and there was another little small building that burned. 24 Q: Two (2) buildings in the Park were 25 burned?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And is it fair to say that the Park 3 occupants or some of them initiated those fires? 4 A: Yeah, probably. 5 Q: And did you contribute to that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. Do you know how it was 8 that the buildings were burned, by what means? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. Were you aware as to whether or 11 not there were Molotov cocktails being built and used at 12 this time? 13 A: I never seen nothing like that around 14 there. 15 Q: All right. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 17 wondering whether at this time -- I'm not going to finish 18 by 3:30 and I'm wondering then if we might adjourn for the 19 day and commence again on Monday at 10:30? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that all 21 right with you? Will you be able to come back Monday 22 morning at 10:30? 23 THE WITNESS: Yep. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then we will 25 adjourn now until Monday morning at 10:30.


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 5 adjourned until Monday, November 29th at 10:30 a.m. 6 7 --- Upon adjourning at 3:30 p.m. 8 9 10 11 Certified Correct, 12 13 14 15 16 17 ____________________ 18 Dustin Warnock 19 20 21 22 23 24 25