11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 24th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-law 12 13 14 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 15 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 16 17 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 18 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena 19 (Army Camp) 20 21 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 22 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) (np) 25 Sue Freeborn ) (np)
31 Maureen Smith ) 2 3 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 4 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 5 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 6 7 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 8 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 9 Jennifer McAleer ) 10 11 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 12 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 13 14 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 15 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 16 17 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 18 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 19 20 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 22 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 23 24 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 25 Karen Jones ) Police Association &
41 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 2 Ian McGilp ) (np) 3 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 4 5 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 6 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 7 Julian Roy ) (np) 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) 18 19 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 20 Anna Perschy ) 21 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 22 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 23 24 25
51 2 3 TABLE OF CONTENTS 4 PAGE NO. 5 6 RODERICK GEORGE, Resumed 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 8 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 26 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 42 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 88 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 224 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 244 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 2 3 --- Upon commencing at 10:04 a.m. 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: Order, all rise, please. 6 This Public Inquiry is now in session, the Honourable Mr. 7 Justice Linden presiding. Please be seated. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 11 Commissioner. Before we begin, I've been asked to make 12 an announcement by the Municipality with respect to 13 Kimball Hall. 14 Last night after the end of the session, 15 there was a fire alarm and -- about ten (10) after 5:00 16 and the Municipality simply wanted to remind everybody 17 that as soon as a fire alarm bell goes, we must all leave 18 immediately and not return until the all clear signal is 19 given. The responsibility of the Municipality is to 20 clear the building immediately upon a fire alarm going. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's hope 22 there's not another fire alarm. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I hope not. I think 24 it was a young man who may have pulled the -- however, 25 the -- we start this morning with the cross-examination
71 of Mr. George. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 4 5 RODERICK GEORGE, Resumed 6 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Klippenstein 8 is the first one. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 Mr. Klippenstein...? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Good morning, 15 Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 17 morning. 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Good morning, 19 Mr. George. 20 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 21 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, I 22 believe we gave an estimate of approximately half an hour 23 for our estimated cross-examination time and I -- I am 24 likely to exceed that, with apologies. I will do my 25 best.
81 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Mr. Klippenstein. 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 5 Q: Mr. George, as you might know, my 6 name is Murray Klippenstein and I'm legal counsel for the 7 Estate of Dudley George and for -- 8 A: Yes, I'm aware of that. 9 Q: Pardon me? 10 A: I'm aware of it. 11 Q: Yeah? Good. In your answers 12 yesterday, you mentioned the Treaty of 1827 and I want to 13 ask you some questions about that, but first I want to 14 ask you a little about the time before the Treaty. 15 I gather that it's your belief that in the 16 time before the Treaty of 1827, that the lands at Stony 17 Point and the lands in a large region all around Stony 18 Point were unquestionably your Peoples' lands. 19 Would that be right? 20 A: That would be correct. 21 Q: Then, in the Treaty of 1827, your 22 people agreed to cede some of their lands in this large 23 region to the British Crown. Is that your understanding? 24 A: That's what I understand, yeah. 25 Q: But the Treaty of 1827 also
91 specifically confirmed that some of your lands in this 2 region were not being ceded to the Crown. 3 Is that your understanding as well? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Now, some time ago in this Inquiry, a 6 historian named Ms. Joan Holmes gave some historical 7 evidence about the Treaty of 1827 and did you happen to 8 see some of her evidence? 9 A: Part of it. 10 Q: Yeah, okay. I asked Ms. Holmes some 11 questions at that time and I'd like to see if you agree 12 with some of her answers about some of the history. 13 When I was asking Ms. Holmes about the 14 Treaty, I suggested to her a number of things and she 15 agreed with me and I'll read out to you from the 16 transcript her answers and I just want to see whether 17 that's something you would agree with as well. 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, 19 the first evidence from Ms. Holmes that I'd like to put 20 forward to Mr. George is found in the transcript of 21 August 19th, the testimony of Ms. Holmes and the quote is 22 at Page 52, lines 14 to 18. And -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 24 Klippenstein? I'm having some difficulty understanding 25 how this is going to advance the Inquiry. Perhaps you
101 could explain that to me? 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Certainly. In 3 Mr. George's testimony yesterday he made reference to the 4 Treaty, and he also made reference to his -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Could you 6 just hold on for one (1) second, Mr. Klippenstein, we're 7 having some difficulty with the transcript. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The system 12 is down. It's important that we get this. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I find that 14 when I talk, most people and systems just switch off. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I notice 16 somebody has already poured water on your case. 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: On the contrary 18 my case holds water. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, 24 you were asking about how this would advance the purposes 25 of the Inquiry.
111 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We already 2 have Joan Holmes' testimony and perhaps he could be asked 3 if -- if he agreed with it or any he -- but I'm just not 4 sure what you're going to do; perhaps you could explain 5 it. 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I plan to do 7 exactly what I think you just mentioned which is I want 8 to put some of her historical evidence to Mr. George and 9 see whether he agrees with it. And the reason that's 10 useful, in my submission, is that Ms. Holmes was a 11 historical expert who'd studied some of the relevant 12 facts and circumstances. 13 Mr. George, I don't think, is a 14 professional historian. On the other -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- hand he's 17 lived some of these things and -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Certainly 19 not the Treaty. He hasn't -- 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: No, except in 21 the sense that and I don't -- I don't want to jump to 22 conclusions but I want to try and explain where I'm going 23 with this. Mr. George has said that the Park was still 24 part of Aazhoodena, it's still part of the unceded 25 territory, it still is today.
121 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: So when he 3 talked about unceded territory that seems to connect back 4 to the Treaty which, as Ms. Holmes said, involved ceding 5 of some lands and -- and reserving some unceded lands. 6 So that connects to what Mr. George was saying and my 7 understanding of the evidence he's given -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- and some of 10 the evidence that we anticipate when he said this is our 11 land, I am trying to understand how the evidence -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What he 13 means. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- of Ms. 15 Holmes might connect to what he's saying. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: And -- and I 18 understand when I am going through these that these may 19 raise some points of history that maybe Mr. George has 20 not sort read before in detail. 21 But I would hope that it might still be 22 useful to see whether it fits with what he might 23 understand orally or in other ways and it might help 24 illuminate some of the problems and the potential 25 solutions for the Inquiry.
131 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 2 Q: Now Mr. George, I want to read this 3 quote from the evidence of Ms. Holmes and I'll read a 4 question I put to her and I made a mistake in the 5 question. I said -- I referred to the Treaty of 1829 6 rather than 1827 and I'll just correct that in the quote 7 that I read to you. 8 And this is again on August 19th at page 9 52 lines 14 to 18. Quote: 10 "To state the obvious I guess, would be 11 the Treaty of 1827 between the Crown 12 and the Chippewa Nation verified 13 several what it called Reserves that 14 were parcels of land that were not 15 ceded or surrendered to the Crown in 16 the Treaty." 17 End of quote. And Ms. Holmes said that's 18 correct. Does that sound right or fit with your 19 understanding? 20 A: My understanding that there are 21 parcels of land that do exist that are unceded territory? 22 Yes, I am. 23 Q: Okay. And as I put to Ms. Holmes in 24 that quote and she agreed, those unceded parcels are 25 mentioned in the Treaty as being unceded, is that right?
141 Does that -- does that fit with your understanding? 2 A: I believe they are, yeah. 3 Q: Yeah. And then I asked Ms. Holmes a 4 follow-up question about these Reserves that are dealt 5 with in the Treaty. And I asked her again on August 19th 6 at page 53 of the transcript, lines 3 to 5, quote: 7 "One (1) of those reserves, obviously, 8 was the Stony Point Reserve." 9 End of quote. And she agreed with that. 10 Is that also your understanding that one (1) of those 11 reserves that's mentioned in the Treaty is the Stony 12 Point Reserve? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: I then asked Ms. Holmes on that day 15 about part of the Stony Point Reserve as it was mentioned 16 in the Treaty and this is found on those transcripts Page 17 53, lines 7 to 10. I asked her, quote: 18 "Part of that reserve, which is the 19 northwest corner of the Stony Point 20 Reserve, were the lands that later 21 became Ipperwash Provincial Park, is 22 that right?". 23 Closed quote, and she agreed. So I just 24 want to see if that makes sense with your understanding, 25 namely, is the northwest corner of the Stony Point
151 Reserve, as it's originally described, the lands that 2 later became Ipperwash Provincial Park? 3 A: What you're asking is, are they still 4 what I consider unceded territory? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Yes, I do. 7 Q: And then I asked Ms. Holmes, and I'll 8 see if this makes sense to you, I said to her on Page 53, 9 lines 13 to 15, quote: 10 "The Ipperwash Provincial Parklands 11 were lands that were allocated or 12 reserved to Natives by the Treaty of 13 1827." 14 Closed quote. And she said, That's 15 correct. Does that also fit with your understanding? 16 A: Yes, it does. 17 Q: Okay. I then asked Ms. Holmes a 18 question about what the Treaty of 1827 said about those 19 lands that were unceded and reserved and I want to see 20 whether you agree with what she said. I -- I asked her - 21 - or I suggested to her -- this is at Page 54, lines 8 to 22 10 -- that, quote: 23 "In that Treaty, the Crown is 24 committing that the lands that are 25 reserved would, in fact, be Native
161 lands in perpetuity." 2 Closed quote. And she said, I believe so. 3 Does that fit with your understanding of -- 4 A: What's the definition of that ten 5 dollar ($10) word you said there? 6 Q: Yeah, in perpetuity means -- in 7 perpetuity means, basically, without end or forever. 8 A: Yes, I agree with her. 9 Q: Okay. That -- that's fits with your 10 understanding? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Then you made some comments yesterday 13 in your testimony about the Parklands and I'll just read 14 to you what I understand you said and I'll ask you about 15 how that fits with some of the Treaty information we've 16 just reviewed and this is at Page 104 of yesterday's 17 transcript at line 13 to 20. 18 "Q: And what can you remember those 19 discussions about going into the Park? 20 A: About it is, in fact, part of our 21 territory. It is -- it doesn't matter 22 how it was sold or how it was bought, 23 it's still part of our -- Aazhoodena -- 24 it's still part of Aazhoodena, no 25 matter what's on it, because it's -- it
171 was part of unceded territory and it 2 still is today." 3 End of quote. Does that sound right about 4 -- or as -- what you said yesterday? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Now. when you said that the Park was 7 part of our territory and that was part of unceded 8 territory, it is your understanding that that would fit 9 with the description of unceded reserve land that we've 10 just talked about in the Treaty and lands that the Crown 11 had committed in 1827 would be native lands in 12 perpetuity. Does that fit together? 13 A: It's part of that agreement, yes. 14 Q: Thank you. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: I then want to, Mr. George, ask you 19 about another topic. I've asked about the Treaty of 1827 20 and I want to now move forward about a hundred (100) 21 years. In your testimony yesterday you made a reference 22 to sale of land, or something like that. 23 And in the testimony of Ms. Holmes, she 24 talked about a surrender of part of the Stony Point 25 reserve which was supposed to have taken place in 1928.
181 Does that sound a little bit familiar to 2 you? 3 A: I've heard parts of that. 4 Q: All right. I would like to review 5 with you some of the evidence that's been put forward by 6 Ms. Holmes about the history that relates to that 1928 7 surrender and I want to ask you some questions about 8 that. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Now, 13 Commissioner, I'm -- your indulgence for one (1) moment? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, I 18 in my next few questions want to put some of the previous 19 historical evidence to Mr. George, recognizing that it 20 may be new to him, but I then want to ask him how he 21 feels about some parts of the 1928 surrender in context 22 or in view of that historical evidence -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How he feels 24 about it? 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: How he feels
191 about it, and how it -- how it affects his attitudes and 2 behaviour in 1995 and today, on the suggestion that it's 3 maybe very important for the Inquiry to understand not 4 only the 1928 surrender but how that might fit in with 5 some of Mr. George's and others actions in 1995. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 7 Millar...? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, the -- 9 the witness yesterday, Mr. George, testified as to why he 10 and -- did certain things with respect to the Park, that 11 it was his belief that the Park was part of unceded 12 territory; that there's a distinction between unceded 13 territory and Treaty lands. 14 It's quite a -- so he's testified and My 15 Friend has asked him some questions about that. He made 16 no -- gave no evidence with respect to the 1928 surrender 17 and don't know if he -- if Mr. George knows anything 18 about the 1928 surrender, but it's not, in my view, 19 appropriate to ask him questions and simply ask him what 20 -- how he feels about a -- what a historian may or may 21 not have said. 22 He's been quite clear that it's his belief 23 that the Park is unceded territory and he responded to my 24 Friend again on that and I'm not certain that this is of 25 -- going to be of much assistance to us.
201 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The evidence 2 that he gave yesterday was quite consistent with evidence 3 that we've heard from Joan Holmes and you've just 4 established that, right? 5 I'm not sure what was said about the 6 surrender, but I -- the 1928 sale, I mean, but you could 7 ask him what he thinks about it. I don't have any 8 difficulty with that, it's a matter of trying to connect 9 to Joan Holmes' testimony. I'm not sure how helpful that 10 is. I don't recall him saying much about that. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He said nothing. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or anything. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: He -- he 14 mentioned in the context of whether or not the -- or in 15 the context of the Park being Aazhoodena territory -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- regardless 18 of whether there was a sale or not. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, he 20 could be asked that, he could be asked those questions 21 again or -- if you want to. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 24 Q: Mr. George, I anticipate that we will 25 hear evidence that it was the position of the Government
211 of Ontario -- the previous Government of Ontario, in 2 1995, that the land that makes up the Park was part of 3 lands surrendered for sale by the Kettle Point and Stony 4 Point First Nation in 1928. 5 Is it fair to me to conclude from what 6 you've said yesterday and today, that you disagree that 7 the land that makes up the Park was surrendered for sale 8 in 1928, or at least that it was validly surrendered? 9 A: So, you're asking me if I agree if -- 10 the -- the vidality (sic) of the '28 sale? 11 Q: Yes, yeah. 12 A: No, I don't agree with it. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Mr. 15 Commissioner, what I would like to do is examine Mr. 16 George about some of the historical evidence that Ms. 17 Holmes put forward and by that I mean evidence about the 18 general attitudes of the Department of Indian Affairs in 19 around 1928 about their belief that Indians would be and 20 should be assimilated into the general population and 21 disappear as a separate distinct people. 22 And the evidence from Ms. Holmes that 23 Indian agents at the time had a large role in managing 24 surrenders and influenced the surrenders and, in this 25 case, didn't actually give the community any information
221 about the option of -- of keeping on or holding onto the 2 land in the future. 3 And I want to ask Mr. George whether he 4 would trust the Department of Indian Affairs to have a 5 fair community process of voting in those circumstances. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I'm -- I'm 7 sorry, but he can ask -- my Friend can ask Mr. George 8 what he knows about -- and what he's learned from his 9 father or grandfather about the history of his people in 10 1928, but to -- and ask directly what he knows. 11 And -- but in my respectful submission, 12 it's improper to read -- if he knows nothing or very 13 little -- to read -- we have the evidence of Ms. Holmes 14 and to read her evidence and say -- ask -- whatever the 15 question is, is not being of assistance, because Mr. 16 George can tell us what he knows -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- what he's learned 19 as part of his history and his Peoples' history but it's 20 inappropriate and I object to reading to Mr. George 21 passages from Ms. Holmes' report and asking him questions 22 about whether he agrees or disagrees. And I don't think 23 you should permit that, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just don't 25 think that helps us. It doesn't move us forward.
231 Obviously he's not a historian, he's not an expert, but 2 what he believes and what he knows and what he thinks 3 about that history could be important. 4 So I have no -- I have no difficulty with 5 you asking him what he believes or what he was told or 6 what he thinks, but connecting it to Joan Holmes' 7 evidence doesn't seem to be all that helpful to me at 8 this point. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's not in 11 any different position than any of the other witnesses on 12 this issue. You could ask every witness all of those 13 same questions and we would be here forever. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I -- I rec -- 15 thank you, Commissioner. I recognize that this type of 16 questioning probably wouldn't meet the strict rules of 17 evidence in a courtroom but obviously I'm suggesting that 18 those be relaxed for this situation and in particular for 19 Mr. George, who so clearly, in 1995, stated that, this is 20 our land and then put his body and life on the line. 21 And so he is in a unique circumstance to, 22 in my respectful submission, help the Commission 23 understand why he did those things and I -- I suggest it 24 should go farther than just asking him exactly what he 25 knows about the details of history and I'm suggesting
241 that part of this Inquiry process can be to connect the 2 history with what happened in 1995. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well that's 4 why I think you can ask what he -- what he believes what 5 he was told, what he understands, what he did, why he did 6 it, all those questions are perfectly relevant. I think 7 that's really what you're doing. 8 It may be we're just quarrelling about the 9 manner of you asking the questions. It may be really 10 that's all we're doing. 11 I just think that going over the evidence 12 of Joan Holmes in detail and reading it back into the 13 record and asking him whether he agrees with it or not 14 does not help us any. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I -- I'm 16 certainly prepared to summarize and I think very 17 accurately the gist of the points of Ms. Holmes that I am 18 trying to get to but maybe that's not the real concern. 19 I am trying to dig deeper into a 20 connection between what happened historically and what 21 happened in 1995, and to make use of the historical 22 evidence that has been put forward on -- on the record by 23 -- by asking Mr. George to illuminate that. 24 But I'm -- and I -- I don't propose to -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You just put
251 a synopsis forward just a couple of minutes ago. 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Hmm hmm. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You could 4 ask him if that corresponds with his understanding of it 5 I think. Because he's already indicated a lot of that in 6 his evidence. 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, maybe 8 I'll take it step by step and if I'm out of line, then 9 hopefully I'll be -- I'll be adjusted. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 11 obviously it's important for us to know what motivated 12 him and what was -- what he was thinking at the time or 13 what was in his mind. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 16 Q: Mr. George, we've heard some evidence 17 that around about the time of the supposed surrender a 18 number -- in other words in the 1920's, that it was the 19 assumption in the Department of Indian Affairs that 20 Indians would eventually be assimilated into the Canadian 21 population and in that way disappear and the view in the 22 Department that that was probably a good thing. 23 Do you know whether that -- or can you 24 tell me whether that fits with your understanding of 25 circumstances back then?
261 A: Well, I really don't know what goes 2 on in the Department of Indian Affairs. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's exactly -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the point that Mr. 6 -- about these questions. And Mr. George has been very 7 straightforward and forward in saying -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- I don't know what 10 went on in the Indian Affairs. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. And it 12 doesn't help to read Joan Holmes' testimony. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 15 that's the problem. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: In that case 17 Commissioner, I have no further questions. Thank you. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 22 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 23 A: Good morning. 24 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde. I'm one 25 (1) of the lawyers representing the Aazhoodena and George
271 family group. 2 Yesterday, you told us about an incident 3 in which your son, Nicholas, was arrested for burning 4 signs warning of unexploded munitions, on the -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- Stony Point land? 7 A: Yes, he was. 8 Q: Did he ever speak with you about why 9 he burned those signs? 10 A: Not really. 11 Q: Okay. I suppose we can ask him, 12 then, when he comes. You told us yesterday about Robert 13 Isaac coming to you on the morning of September 6th -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: To tell you that the police were 16 coming into the Park? 17 A: That was his belief at the time, 18 yeah. 19 Q: In one (1) of your statements to the 20 SIU, on October 12th, 1995, and for the assistance of 21 Counsel it's Inquiry Document Number 100444 on Volume III 22 at page 14. 23 I'm just going to read to you something 24 that you said to the SIU about Robert Isaac coming to 25 you. Quote:
281 "I was up here sleeping. I guess it 2 was maybe a little after 8:00 and I 3 went down to the Park, because he said 4 the cop -- the OPP came into the Park 5 and they were laying around with their 6 gun, he'll have to tell you that." 7 Do you remember saying anything about -- 8 well, do you recall Robert Isaac saying anything to you 9 about the police laying around with guns? 10 A: Yes, he said they were laying on 11 their -- like on their belly. 12 Q: He said they were laying on their 13 belly? To do -- 14 A: Yeah, with rifles, yeah. 15 Q: Did he say where they were? 16 A: This area about -- 17 Q: Okay, you're pointing at -- is it P- 18 89? You're pointing at the map behind you in the sandy 19 parking lot? 20 A: Somewheres in that area, that's the 21 way I understood he told me it. 22 Q: Okay. And he -- you understood from 23 him that they were laying in the sandy parking lot -- 24 A: That's what he said. So I assume 25 that's the one he was talking about.
291 Q: Okay. And did you see that for 2 yourself when you went down to -- 3 A: No, I never. 4 Q: -- to the Park? And you told us 5 about observing the evacuation of a cottage, and -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Do you recall what time of day that 8 was happening? 9 A: It was after that. I was already 10 down there. It was after -- well, obviously after I went 11 down there. I don't know exactly what time it was. 12 Q: Was it in the morning? 13 A: Yes. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Now I'm just jumping ahead to later 18 that day when the police were coming to that 19 intersection, and I believe you told us that you could 20 hear one (1) officer giving orders. 21 A: To the south of me, yeah. 22 Q: And that was a male voice? 23 A: I assumed it was. Sounded like one 24 to me. 25 Q: And you could hear it quite clearly?
301 A: Yes. 2 Q: We've heard from some other witnesses 3 that there was also some yelling back and forth between 4 the people on the -- the east side of the fence and the 5 police -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: Did you hear that as well? 8 A: Yes, I heard it. 9 Q: And -- so you heard the police 10 yelling? 11 A: I didn't hear the police yelling. I 12 didn't hear -- actually when they first came I didn't 13 hear them say anything. 14 Q: Okay, did you at any other point hear 15 them yelling? 16 A: About the time when Bernard was 17 getting beaten? 18 Q: Can you recall what they were 19 yelling? 20 A: Something along the lines of a 21 savage, something like that. 22 Q: Now you've marked on the map behind 23 you with, I believe, a number 5 where you saw Mr. Cecil 24 Bernard George being beaten? 25 A: Approximately, yeah.
311 Q: Do you recall how many officers were 2 involved in that beating? 3 A: There would have to be eight (8), ten 4 (10) to twelve (12), somewheres around there. 5 Q: Could you identify any of those 6 officers? 7 A: No, I can't. 8 Q: Why is that? 9 A: Most of their backs were to me and 10 the other ones on the other side were -- plus their face 11 shields and their -- all their headgear prevented any 12 chance of identification. 13 Q: And what was Mr. Cecil Bernard George 14 doing? He was on the ground when you saw him? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And could you see what he was doing? 17 A: Getting beaten up. 18 Q: What was his position on the ground, 19 do you recall? 20 A: I believe he was on his back at the 21 time I seen him. 22 Q: And was he -- 23 A: I couldn't say for sure, but it -- it 24 looked like he had his head covered with his hands. 25 Q: Did he seem to be moving?
321 A: Just to protect himself. 2 Q: And did you see what happened to him 3 after that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: We understand that he was moved. 6 A: Hmm hmm? 7 Q: We understand that he was moved? 8 A: They said he was moved to -- further 9 back towards East Parkway Drive. 10 Q: Did you see that yourself? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. And then somebody yelled for a 13 bus to come out -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: That -- that's right? And, I believe 16 you suggested in one (1) of your SIU statements you 17 thought maybe even you had yelled for the bus to come 18 out? 19 A: I kind of thought myself, like -- 20 that I heard it, but it happened so fast I don't think I 21 said it. 22 Q: Okay. But you understood at the time 23 that the purpose of the bus coming out was to assist 24 Cecil Bernard George and try to stop the beating? 25 A: Yes, it was to separate the --
331 hopefully to separate the OPP into two (2) -- two (2) or 2 three (3) groups or whatever. 3 Q: And in your view was the intervention 4 of the bus successful in helping Cecil Bernard George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you believe that it stopped the 7 beating? 8 A: Well, there were some officers to the 9 south of the bus as a result of the bus going out there. 10 Q: Now, I'd like to ask you some 11 questions about what you observed of gunfire, and could 12 you just identify for me on the map behind you, if you 13 can, where the shots were coming from? 14 A: When I first seen him? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: From this area. 17 Q: Okay. I'm wondering -- you're 18 pointing to the south side of the -- of the 19 intersection -- 20 A: East Parkway Drive. 21 Q: -- yes. Could you, perhaps, mark 22 with a, I think we're at number -- 23 THE REGISTRAR: Number 8. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE:
341 Q: -- number 8. Could you mark with an 2 "8" on the map where it was that you saw. And what was 3 it that you saw? 4 A: Five (5) or six (6) police officers; 5 and I seen a muzzle flash. 6 Q: And if I recall your evidence 7 yesterday, you -- you believe that the gunfire was coming 8 towards you? 9 A: Yes, because it was -- the flash was 10 round. 11 Q: So, it was -- it wasn't aimed at the 12 bus, from what you understood? 13 A: No. I don't know, I wouldn't if it 14 was me. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I wouldn't know what their purpose 17 was. 18 Q: And you told us that you heard Dudley 19 say something like, Robert, I've been shot? 20 A: I think I'm hit. 21 Q: I think I'm hit? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And do -- do you know where Mr. 24 Dudley George was when he said that? 25 A: He was right in front of me.
351 Q: Okay, would -- could you show us on 2 the map? Perhaps mark with a number 9? 3 A: That's me in this area. 4 Q: So you looked at Dudley George as he 5 said that? 6 A: Pardon? 7 Q: You looked at him as he said that? 8 A: His back was towards me. 9 Q: His back was towards you? 10 A: And he -- he fell against me and 11 that's when he said, I think I'm hit. 12 Q: Did he take any steps after that? 13 A: I think he just turned around and he 14 fell to the ground. 15 Q: Okay, I'm going to jump ahead again 16 to when you're back up at the built-up area, trying to 17 get an ambulance for your son? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you told us about how your wife, 20 Gina George, initially went out to the intersection to 21 try and get an ambulance -- the intersection of Highway 22 21 and Army Camp Road? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And could you see what happened when 25 she initially went out to that intersection?
361 A: Not the first time. 2 Q: Not the first time. Did you know -- 3 you knew that there were police at that intersection? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And -- and what had you observed of 6 the police at that intersection. 7 A: At which time? 8 Q: Just prior to your wife going out to 9 the intersection to speak with the police? 10 A: Well, I don't think there was any 11 cruisers there at the time, but -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- they eventually were there. And 14 she went out first and then there was obviously -- 15 somebody made the call from the store, like we -- I asked 16 somebody to call for the ambulance to meet us at the 17 front gate house. 18 Q: Okay. So, when -- but when she went 19 out the first time, there weren't any cruisers at that 20 intersection? Is that what you've just said? 21 A: Well, there were somebody there that 22 told her that they had to take Nick out to that 23 intersection. 24 Q: Okay. But had you seen -- 25 A: But I didn't see that.
371 Q: You didn't see anything? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And you knew at that point that 4 Marcia Simon and Melva George had -- had left sometime 5 previously to try and get ambulances? 6 A: Yeah, it was before -- well as soon 7 we got up there, they chose to go to McPhersons 8 (phonetic) to try and use the pay phone there. 9 Q: Did you see them leave? 10 A: I believe so, yeah. 11 Q: And how long was that before your 12 wife went out to the intersection to speak with the 13 police? 14 A: I think it was before. 15 Q: Do you know how long before? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Did you observe what speed 18 they were going when they left the built-up area? 19 A: No, not really. 20 Q: And did you know that night what had 21 happened to them? 22 A: No, I never. 23 Q: You knew that they had gone to get 24 ambulances and they did not come back? 25 A: Yes. All I assumed where they went.
381 Q: Now yesterday you were asked a little 2 bit about the running of Aazhoodena today. I understand 3 that you hold a contract for the maintenance -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you said that somebody else had 6 that contract before you. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And who was that? 9 A: It was a short period of time. Her 10 name was Joanne Jackson (phonetic). 11 Q: Joanne Jackson? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And who is Joanne Jackson? 14 A: She was a resident at the time. 15 She's a daughter of Rose Manning. 16 Q: And the contract that you hold, 17 that's with the Department of National Defence, it's 18 not -- 19 A: It says her Majesty the Queen. 20 Q: It's with her Majesty the Queen? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: The DND is the representative. 24 Q: Okay, thank you. So it's not the 25 Department of Indian Affairs that you --
391 A: No. 2 Q: -- communicate with about the running 3 of that area? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And it's a formal arrangement? A 6 contractual arrangement? 7 A: It's on a contract, basically, yeah. 8 Q: And you told us that you employ some 9 individuals? 10 A: Approximately twenty (20). 11 Q: And what do they do? 12 A: Anything from water to sewerage to 13 general maintenance. Access control, general upkeep. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: It -- it's my understanding that Her 18 Majesty the Queen still considers Aazhoodena to be their 19 property. It hasn't been returned to reserve status? 20 A: Say that again. 21 Q: It's my understanding that Aazhoodena 22 is still -- is still considered to be property of Her 23 Majesty the Queen by the Canadian government. 24 A: That's your opinion? 25 Q: No, no. That's not my opinion. I'm
401 very sorry. I'll try to be clear. Is it your 2 understanding that the Canadian government still 3 considers Aazhoodena to be their property? 4 A: No, it's unceded territory. 5 Q: I understand that that's your view. 6 I'm asking if you have any knowledge of what the Canadian 7 Government's view is? 8 A: No, I don't have no knowledge of what 9 they think. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: What they're -- 12 Q: Fair enough. Has that territory been 13 returned to reserve status? 14 A: Pardon? 15 Q: Has the territory been returned to 16 reserve status? 17 A: It's my belief it was never removed. 18 Q: I have -- about unexploded 19 ordinances, you mentioned those yesterday. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Have you found any in the course of 22 your work? 23 A: Yes, we have. 24 Q: Now I understand that the Stony Point 25 people are not currently involved in any land
411 negotiations concerning the former Army Camp or the Park? 2 A: The residents? 3 Q: Right. 4 A: No, we're not. 5 Q: And that the residents of Stony Point 6 do not want to be represented by the Kettle Point and 7 Stoney Point Band Council? 8 A: No, we don't. 9 Q: Because you consider yourselves to be 10 part of a separate First Nation community? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Thank you, those are my questions for 13 you this morning. 14 A: You're welcome. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. I think, Mr. Henderson, you're up? 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes, 18 Commissioner, but we'll pass on -- on questions this 19 morning. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Mr. Henderson. On behalf of the Chiefs of Ontario? 22 MR. MATTHEW HORNER: Yes, Mr. 23 Commissioner, our questions have also been answered. 24 Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
421 I don't think the Province indicated any intention. I 2 guess we're up to the Ontario Provincial Police, Ms. 3 Tuck-Jackson? 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 6 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 7 A: Good morning. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think in 9 your absence before you were here I think it was 10 estimated that you'd be an hour to an hour and a half? 11 Does that estimate sound right, because 12 you didn't make it. 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No, sir, I 14 didn't make it and I'm happy to say that I'm not going to 15 be nearly that long. I anticipate -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- that I will 19 probably be closer to approximately forty-five (45) 20 minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 22 thank you very much. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 25 Q: Good morning, Mr. George.
431 A: Good morning. 2 Q: And as you probably have already 3 heard, my name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson and I'm here today 4 to ask you some questions on behalf of the OPP. And I 5 will try and take as little time as possible to do that. 6 All right? 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: Now, I want to begin if I may, just 9 going over with you very briefly the progress that the 10 Stony Pointers have made as they have reclaimed the land 11 that they believe is rightfully theirs, all right? 12 Now as we've heard, the occupiers entered 13 the rifle range in May of 1993, and I trust, sir, that 14 you supported that decision? 15 A: Yes, I did and I do. 16 Q: Of course and I -- I trust that you 17 felt that the occupation of that part of the Army Base 18 was justified because that was your land. And when I say 19 your land, I'm talking in a very general sense, not your 20 particular land but the Stony Pointer's land. 21 A: As handed down as in the Treaty, yes. 22 Q: Yes. And you'd agree with me I 23 trust, sir, that at no time did the OPP attempt to remove 24 the occupiers when they were settled in the range area? 25 A: I wasn't there full time, but I have
441 never heard of any incident. 2 Q: That's fair, thank you, sir. Now we 3 also know that the occupiers pushed on at the end of July 4 of 1995, and moved into the built-up area of the Army 5 Base, correct? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And I trust once again you supported 8 that decision, understandably? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And again, I trust that you were of 11 the view that the occupation was justified because, 12 again, that land belonged to the Stony Pointers? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And once again, I'm going to suggest 15 to you, sir, that as far as you were aware, there were no 16 attempts by the OPP to remove the occupiers from the 17 built-up area? 18 A: Not that I'm aware of. 19 Q: Thank you, sir. Now, we also know 20 that on the evening of September the 4th, 1995, certain 21 Stony Pointers and again, I'm going to collectively refer 22 to them as the occupiers, moved into the fenced in area 23 that is identified by some as Ipperwash Provincial Park, 24 correct? 25 A: I wouldn't know exactly when they
451 went in because I wasn't present at the time. 2 Q: I understand. But it's -- it's I 3 think that -- 4 A: On or about -- yes, right. You're 5 correct. 6 Q: All right. And again whether or not 7 you played a role in the decision as to either whether or 8 when to go in, I trust that ultimately you supported the 9 decision to enter the Park? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: And once again, sir, I trust it's 12 because you were of the view that that occupation was 13 justified, correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Because it's your land? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: Right. Okay, good. Now, we know, 18 sir, of your actions in the evening of September the 4th 19 and, in particular, we know of a confrontation that 20 occurred between yourself, a number of fellow occupiers, 21 and the police, which ultimately culminated in the 22 breaking of the window of the cruiser. Correct? 23 A: That's what happened that evening, 24 yeah. 25 Q: Yes. And we know, sir, that
461 immediately following your telling the police in no 2 uncertain terms that they weren't welcome on the land, 3 and your breaking that -- that window, the police left 4 the Park? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: All right. And I'm going to suggest 7 to you, sir, that at no time, on September the 5th, did 8 the police cross that fence line around the Park and 9 attempt to remove the occupiers? 10 A: I don't -- no, not on September 5th. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: They came from the air. 13 Q: No, and I -- I understand -- and I 14 understand, sir -- 15 A: They were up there. 16 Q: -- that they -- they were flying 17 above you at one (1) point in a helicopter, but I'm 18 leaving that aside for a moment. I'm talking about 19 activities on the ground, all right? 20 A: I don't know what the difference is, 21 but go ahead. 22 Q: It's a fair perspective. All right. 23 My perspective, I'm focussing on the ground, okay? 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: All right.
471 A: So, we're in agreement that at no 2 time on September the 5th, did the police cross the fence 3 line and attempt to remove any of the occupiers on the 4 Park? 5 A: Not that I'm aware of. 6 Q: Thank you. All right. And I'm going 7 to suggest to you again, on September the 6th, at no time 8 on that day did the police cross the fence line and 9 attempt to remove the occupiers from the Park? 10 A: Again, you're correct. 11 Q: Thank you, sir. And I'm going to 12 suggest to you, even on the very evening of September the 13 6th -- when we know that there was a confrontation 14 between the occupiers and the police -- that even on that 15 evening the police came up to the fence line, but they 16 didn't cross the fence line in any way; they simply came 17 up to it and, as I understand you told the SIU, they 18 simply stared at you? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say, sir, 21 from what you could observe over the activities of the 22 5th and the 6th, that as long as the occupiers stayed 23 within the fenced in area of the Park, there was no 24 physical confrontation between the police and the 25 occupiers?
481 A: Who's -- who's saying this, again? 2 Can you -- 3 Q: It's all right, I'm putting it to 4 you. I'm going to suggest, sir, that from what you could 5 observe from what happened on the 5th in the Park, and 6 what happened on the 6th in the Park and all the 7 interaction with the police, as long as the occupiers 8 stayed on the eastern portion of the fence line, there 9 was no physical confrontation with the police? 10 A: Well, I wasn't aware of that rule of 11 staying on the east side of the fence line. No, I wasn't 12 aware of that. 13 Q: No, I'm not talking about a rule, 14 sir. 15 A: Well, it seems like there was one (1) 16 in place there somewhere, but nobody told us. 17 Q: Okay, we're going to get about -- 18 communication in a few minutes. I'm just asking you 19 about your observations, okay? As long as the occupiers 20 remained behind the fence -- in other words, didn't come 21 out into the parking lot -- as long as they stayed behind 22 the fence -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 24 Henderson is -- 25 THE WITNESS: No, we weren't aware of
491 that. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 3 Henderson's making an objection. 4 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes, 5 Commissioner, I believe Mr. George has already answered 6 this. What my Friend is asking for is not an 7 observation, she's asked for an inference and Mr. George 8 has quite fairly stated, I didn't make that inference at 9 the time -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I don't 11 think he's -- 12 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- no one 13 communicated what the conclusion ought to have been to 14 me. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: With 16 respect, Mr. Henderson, I don't think he's answered the 17 question yet. I think Ms. Tuck-Jackson is trying to put 18 a question to him that I think is a fair question, if he 19 understands it, and I think he can answer it, and I don't 20 think he has yet. I don't think so. 21 Ms. Tuck-Jackson do -- 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- want to 24 try to put the question again? 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I will.
501 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 2 Q: Perhaps I'll proceed along a little 3 bit further. You know that on the evening of September 4 the 5th, certain occupiers came outside of the fence and 5 moved some picnic tables into the sandy parking lot area, 6 correct? 7 A: On the 5th? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: I was not there, so I -- apparently 10 they must have. 11 Q: All right. And I understand, sir, 12 that you weren't there at the time, but you learned that 13 that had occurred, after the fact? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I trust that you also learned 16 after the fact that the police attempted to push and 17 remove those tables, get them out of the way, effectively 18 pushing the occupiers back onto the other side of the 19 fence, right? 20 A: That's what I later heard, yeah. 21 Q: Good. All right. So you had that in 22 your mind, right? You knew about it? 23 A: Not really, it wasn't in my mind. In 24 and out. 25 Q: Fair enough, all right. I'm also
511 going to suggest, and again you may not have been 2 present, but you were aware that on the following morning 3 on the 6th, the police made further efforts to remove 4 picnic tables that were in the sandy parking lot, 5 correct? 6 A: That's what I learned, yeah. 7 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you from 8 what you could observe, the police were attempting to 9 contain the occupiers within the fenced in area of the 10 Park. Is that fair? 11 A: No, I didn't -- had no idea that was 12 their intentions at all at the time. 13 Q: All right. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a 15 question that he can answer and he has. I see you're 16 about to object, Mr. Henderson. I mean, she's making a 17 suggestion to him that he can agree with or not. 18 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: He's answered. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's 20 answered it. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 23 Q: Would you agree with me, Mr. George, 24 that the only time that you were aware of any type of a 25 confrontation, a physical confrontation between the
521 police and the occupiers was when the occupiers moved 2 outside of the fence line of the Park, from what you 3 could observe and hear about? 4 A: I'm trying to figure out what you're 5 trying to ask me here now. That I observed -- the only 6 time -- 7 Q: The only time -- 8 A: -- there was a confrontation. No 9 there was when I smashed the windshield that was a 10 confrontation as well. 11 A: I understand, all right. And I 12 should have narrowed my question a bit. Apart from what 13 happened on the evening of the 4th, I'm focusing on the 14 activities of the 5th and the activities of the 6th. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: Okay? And I'm going to suggest to 17 you that the only time, from what you could observe or 18 what you heard about, the only time there was any type of 19 a clash or a confrontation, of some type of a physical 20 kind of a confrontation between the police and the 21 occupiers was when the occupiers left the fenced in area 22 of the Park. 23 A: You're correct in saying that's the 24 only time there was a confrontation, but we did not know 25 at the time -- was because we walked on a public road, on
531 a road. 2 Q: That's a different issue and I -- and 3 I understand your perspective entirely, sir. But you've 4 answered my question. Thank you. 5 Now, you have been very candid, sir, in 6 acknowledging your exchange between yourself and the 7 police late in the evening on September the 4th when the 8 occupiers had moved into the Park which, as we know, 9 ended with your smashing the window of the police car, 10 all right? 11 And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that 12 once the police had left, after you had smashed that 13 window and apart from an effort by officer Vincent George 14 several hours later to serve a trespass notice, and I 15 should pause there, were you aware of that? 16 A: No, I'm not. 17 Q: Did you learn about it after the 18 fact? 19 A: I don't know we're being charged with 20 trespass until, I guess, later on is when -- I really 21 couldn't tell you when I was aware of that fact to tell 22 you the truth. 23 Q: I wasn't actually referring to a 24 charge I any sense, I was referring to efforts -- 25 A: By Vince. No, I'm not aware of it.
541 Q: That's fair, all right. Then let me 2 put the question to you this way. I've asked you about 3 efforts by the police to remove the occupiers from the 4 Park, now I want to ask you a different question. 5 A: Which time? 6 Q: Sorry. I -- I was asking you about 7 the efforts on the 5th and the 6th and that the police 8 didn't attempt to -- to oust the occupiers from the Park. 9 I now want to focus on something else, all right? 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that once 12 the police left on September the 4th, at no point on the 13 5th or the 6th did you ever even see them within the 14 boundary of the Park, for any purpose? 15 A: No, I never. 16 Q: Thank you, sir. All right. Now, we 17 talked about the occupiers moving onto the rifle range, 18 progressing further into the built-up area, progressing 19 further into the Park and as we've already talked about 20 briefly, we know that as early as the evening of 21 September the 5th, some occupiers went outside of the 22 Park and moved onto that sandy parking lot, correct? 23 A: I've already answered that question. 24 Q: And I'm -- 25 A: It was a yes.
551 Q: Thank you, sir, all right. And I 2 trust again you weren't part of that activity we know, 3 correct? 4 A: Which one (1)? 5 Q: When they moved into the Park on the 6 -- excuse me -- 7 A: I wasn't there. I wasn't present, 8 no. 9 Q: Thank you, sir. I trust, however, 10 that you did not disagree with the decision for those 11 occupiers to move into the parking lot? 12 A: Again I've answered that question 13 already with a yes. 14 Q: All right. Fair enough. I didn't 15 think we covered that, but good, I'm glad -- I'm glad 16 you're agreeing. And I trust that the reason that you 17 agreed was that again, you were of the view that that 18 parking lot was part of Stony Point territory? 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: All right, thank you. And you again 21 very fairly I understand in response to Mr. Millar's 22 question yesterday indicated that as far as you were 23 aware, the Stony Pointers had not communicated to the 24 federal government that you were of the view that that 25 parking lot was part of your territory?
561 A: We've never had no communication with 2 the federal government ever since we went into the range. 3 That's -- they weren't listening. 4 Q: I understand. I understand and I -- 5 I can assure you I don't take any issue with that at all. 6 Would it also be fair to say, sir, that at no point did 7 you communicate to the OPP? 8 A: We weren't -- our actions weren't 9 that of communicating with the OPP, it was with the 10 federal government. 11 Q: I understand. But let -- let me just 12 finish my question for a moment. Would you agree with 13 me, sir, that at no point did you, or as far as you were 14 aware, any of your fellow occupiers communicate to the 15 OPP that you thought that parking lot was part of your 16 territory? 17 A: No, we never. Not that I'm aware of. 18 Q: Thank you, sir. 19 A: Not on my part. 20 Q: Thank you. Now, I trust that one (1) 21 of the reasons for moving into the parking lot was to 22 establish that it was your land. In other words you were 23 reclaiming that part of your land which you thought was 24 properly yours? 25 A: That's correct.
571 Q: And I trust that another purpose in 2 moving into the parking lot and in particular, setting up 3 the picnic tables in the way that they were arranged was 4 to create a barrier that would prevent access to the Park 5 and to the beach area? 6 A: No. It was part of our territory 7 that's why it was blocked off. 8 Q: All right. We've heard it from other 9 witnesses who have agreed that another purpose in 10 gathering the tables together as they were, was to 11 frustrate access to the Park and to the beach area? 12 A: All the other -- all the other 13 accesses were blocked off as well. 14 Q: Right. So it would be fair to say 15 that as far as you were aware, this was another access 16 point that the occupiers were trying -- 17 A: To our territory. 18 Q: Yes. Exactly. All right, so then 19 good. So we now know that there were two (2) purposes in 20 moving the tables into the parking lot as far as you were 21 aware? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay, good. Thank you. Now, as we 24 know, there are cottage properties on East Parkway Drive 25 to the west of the Park.
581 A: Yes, there is. 2 Q: And I'm trying to understand, sir, is 3 it your view that this land west of the Park, along East 4 Parkway Drive, is that also land that, in your respectful 5 view, is your territory? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No. All right. You've already told 8 us that at no point did you communicate to the OPP why it 9 was that you were moving into the parking lot. We -- we 10 already know that. I'm going to ask you another 11 question. 12 At any point did you ever try to 13 communicate to the OPP that there was no intention of 14 moving further to reclaim those cottage properties that 15 were west of the Park? 16 A: There was no need to. 17 Q: There was no need to. Why do you say 18 that? 19 A: That was as far as we were going. 20 Q: But that's not what I asked you, sir. 21 A: What you asked me was, was there 22 communications here, you're throwing in two (2) pieces of 23 land in one question and I have to say, no, there was no 24 communication. 25 Q: Thank you, sir. And I think, quite
591 frankly, one (1) of the -- the issues that Mr. 2 Commissioner is going to have to resolve is -- is 3 probably a breakdown in communication from various sides 4 in this whole mess and if everyone had made a better 5 effort at communications, perhaps there would have been a 6 much better outcome for everybody, but that's -- 7 A: That don't -- that only works if 8 somebody's going to listen to one (1) party. 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Is that a question? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 11 that -- 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I'll move on. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- objecting 14 to statements being made at this point. It's question 15 time. 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: The witness did answer 17 the speech. 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Well I thought 19 maybe it was time that another party made a speech. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 22 Q: Now, we also have heard, sir, that in 23 the evening of September the 6th, certain occupiers moved 24 into the sandy parking lot. And just to assist you in 25 terms of a time frame, I'm talking about the evening
601 prior to the confrontation between Stuart George and 2 Gerald George, just so you know my reference point, okay? 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: All right. And we've heard, sir, 5 that several occupiers, anywhere from maybe close to a 6 half a dozen occupiers had once again left the fenced in 7 area of the Park and were in the parking lot and a number 8 of these individuals were observed to be holding sticks 9 or clubs or something to that effect. 10 Now were you aware of any of that? 11 A: I wasn't there, I wasn't aware of it. 12 Q: All right. So you can't assist us, 13 because you weren't -- 14 A: No, I can't. 15 Q: -- in a position to observe it? 16 A: Correct, I'm not. 17 Q: Were you aware, sir, of any intention 18 by some of the occupiers to leave the Park at that 19 particular time period and move into the parking lot, in 20 advance of it happening? 21 A: If they were -- intended in leaving 22 the Park? 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right, thank you. I've covered
611 off the area to the west of the Park. I want to talk 2 about some of the area to the east of the Park. 3 And we've heard some evidence from a 4 number of fellow occupiers that there had been discussion 5 about pushing beyond the boundary of the Park and moving 6 into the area that's sometimes been described as Port 7 Franks. 8 And I'll ask you, sir, were you aware of 9 any of those discussions? 10 A: It's just like you said discussion, 11 but no there is no intentions of going beyond our 12 boundaries. 13 Q: Okay. But it's quite clear that -- 14 that there was some discussions going on to that effect, 15 that perhaps we should push further into the area east of 16 the Park, correct? 17 A: East of the Park? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: That's the military Base, ex-military 20 Base. 21 Q: I'm not being precise enough in my 22 questions and you've caught me, thank you. I mean beyond 23 the Base into the area of Port Franks. 24 A: No, not to Port Franks. 25 Q: Didn't you just say to me a minute
621 ago that, yes, there were some discussions but only -- 2 A: There was discussion but we're -- we 3 have not any intentions. 4 Q: I understand. Okay, at any point, 5 sir, as far as you were aware, was there any attempt to 6 communicate to the OPP that there was no intention of 7 acting upon the notion of pushing of east of the Army 8 Base? 9 A: What exactly are you asking here? 10 Q: I'm asking, sir -- and I -- I suspect 11 in -- in many respects you've already answered the 12 question, but I want to be very precise. I trust at no 13 point did any of the occupiers tell the OPP that they had 14 no intentions of moving into the Port Franks area. 15 A: Why -- I could say, no, but within 16 that no comes a -- we are not regaining our territory to 17 -- to discuss things with the OPP. That parcel of land 18 is -- we're going to communicate to the Federal 19 Government. 20 Q: I understand. You've answered my 21 question, sir. We don't need to pursue it further. 22 Thank you. 23 And I want to move on, more specifically, 24 to communication, because I think communication is a big 25 issue that has to be resolved in this Inquiry and it --
631 as -- I want to begin, sir, if I can with communication 2 between yourself and an officer, a sergeant by the name 3 of Korosec, K-O-R-O-S-E-C, that I understand occurred 4 over on Matheson Drive somewhere towards the later 5 afternoon. 6 And, in particular, I wonder, Mr. 7 Registrar, could you put the volume of materials amassed 8 by Commission Counsel before Mr. George, because I'd like 9 to take him to a number of his statements, please? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Sir, I wonder if you could turn to 14 Tab 10, please? 15 A: Ten (10)? 16 Q: Ten (10). And the document is 17 entitled, "Statement of Sergeant S. F. Korosec", and I'm 18 probably butchering the pronunciation of his name. It is 19 Korosec? Thank you, Mr. Miller. All right. 20 Now, and in particular, sir, if you can 21 turn to Page 2? Oh, I'm sorry, let's go back to Page 1. 22 I apologize. Right at the bottom. And he is referring 23 to the time just shortly after 4:00 p.m. on September the 24 4th and he indicates that he is speaking with you, if you 25 see at the bottom of his statement it says:
641 "I identified myself to Judas George as 2 the Supervisor in Charge of the 3 officers present." 4 Now, pausing there for a moment, sir, do 5 you remember a conversation shortly after 4:00 p.m. with 6 an officer who identified himself as Sergeant Korosec, 7 the Officer in Charge of the officers who were there? 8 A: I remember there were officers there, 9 but I don't recall no -- the conversation or his name. 10 Q: Okay. Well, let's -- let's see if by 11 going through this statement it -- it helps refresh your 12 memory. Do you recall having -- if I can put it with you 13 -- heated words with an officer around that time over on 14 Matheson Drive? 15 A: What do you mean by "heated words? 16 Q: Well, there was some yelling going 17 on. 18 A: There probably was. 19 Q: Fair enough. All right. Do you 20 recall asking the officer why there were cruisers on 21 Matheson Drive, because you regarded that property as 22 your territory? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Do you recall advising the 25 officer that you wanted a meeting with his superiors?
651 A: No, I don't recall. 2 Q: Is it possible that you said that? 3 A: I might have, yeah. 4 Q: Okay, thank you. And do you recall 5 that the Sergeant gave you the name of Inspector John 6 Carson? 7 A: No, I don't remember. 8 Q: Okay. Do you recall that the officer 9 said to you that the police would meet with you at any 10 time? 11 A: No, I still don't remember it. I 12 don't recall that. 13 Q: Okay. Is it possible that it could 14 have happened? 15 A: It might have. 16 Q: Thank you, sir. According to this 17 statement, you apparently indicate that would contact a 18 gentleman by the name of Charlie Bouman, B-O-U-M-A-N, to 19 set up a meeting, and I want to pause there for a minute. 20 Who is Charlie Bouman? 21 A: He's an officer out of Grand Bend 22 that -- I don't know if it was before that time or after 23 that time, we did go to -- it was me, Glenn and I believe 24 Marlin had a little -- we went to the Detachment in Grand 25 Bend and sat down and had a little talk with him.
661 But I -- no, I can't recall what it was 2 for. I believe it was about the status of Carl George as 3 Chief. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I think that's what he wanted to know 6 about. 7 Q: So this was a police officer with 8 whom you had dealings prior to September the 4th? 9 A: Once. 10 Q: Once, fair enough, all right. And I 11 trust he was a person that you felt comfortable 12 contacting as sort of a go-between, an intermediary? 13 A: We did it, but I wasn't comfortable. 14 Q: Okay. I trust then, sir, that after 15 you met with Sergeant Korosec you did not follow up with 16 Charlie Bouman to set up a meeting with -- with Inspector 17 Carson? 18 A: Apparently not. 19 Q: Apparently not, okay. Would it be 20 fair to say, sir, well actually before I -- I ask that, I 21 want to take you to another part of the officer's 22 statement. 23 If you go on, sir, to page 3 and again, 24 you may not be able to assist us because you may not have 25 been at the Park at this point. Were you there when the
671 chain to the fence of the Park was cut? 2 A: No, I wasn't. 3 Q: All right. So you can't assist us as 4 to any discussion that may have taken place between Bert 5 Manning and Glenn George? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. Then I won't ask you about 8 that. Good enough. Now, we know then that you did not 9 follow up with Inspector Carson on the evening of 10 September the 4th, correct? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 13 that by your words and actions in the Park itself later 14 that evening, you were attempting to make it clear to the 15 police that you were not interested in talking, is that 16 fair? 17 A: Not to them. 18 Q: Not to them. You wanted to talk to 19 the federal government? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: All right. You also referred, sir, 22 to the fact that over the course of September the 5th and 23 September the 6th, and I'm referring to your evidence 24 from yesterday, that efforts were made by an officer by 25 the name of Mark Wright who kept coming up to the fence
681 line asking to speak to someone. Do you recall that? 2 A: I don't recall him, kept coming up 3 there. I seen him once. 4 Q: You seen -- you saw him once? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. Do you recall, sir, 7 whether that was on the 5th or the 6th? 8 A: I think it was the 5th. It might 9 have been the 5th. 10 Q: It might have been the 6th? 11 A: It could have been the 6th, I don't 12 know. I'm really not sure. Probably it was the 5th I 13 think. 14 Q: All right. In fairness, sir, I 15 anticipate that we're going to hear that he came up to 16 the fence line at the Park once on the 5th and once on 17 the 6th. 18 In any event, I understand, sir, from your 19 evidence yesterday, that you made it clear to him, once 20 again in no uncertain terms, that you were not interested 21 in speaking to him? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Is that fair? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: All right. And you weren't
691 interested in serving as any kind of a liaison or a 2 connection between the police and the occupiers, is that 3 fair? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: All right. I want to take you, sir, 6 if I can, to Tab 16 of that book. This is an interview 7 that I understand you gave to the SIU on October the 8 12th, 1995. And in particular, sir, I want to take you 9 to page 13. 10 And, sir, I want to read to you and I 11 trust that you would agree that what you said at the time 12 was the truth, you were speaking from the heart. 13 But I want to read to you an exchange 14 between Officer Wilson and yourself. Officer Wilson -- 15 and this is just near the top of the page, for the 16 benefit of -- of Mr. Commissioner and My Friends: 17 "Okay, on that night in question, was 18 there anyone in your group that was 19 appointed as being a person in charge?" 20 And your response as has been captured 21 during the interview is as follows: 22 "No, we didn't appoint nobody in charge 23 because we've -- all that day some 24 officer, we've known him -- his name to 25 be Wright. He kept coming through the
701 perimeter of the Park and wanting us -- 2 him to speak. He wanted to speak to 3 the -- the man in charge and we 4 discussed it with ourselves and we 5 says, we're not -- nobody's going to be 6 in charge because they like to pick 7 that person out as the target, eh? 8 So nobody was. We were, like he said, 9 we appeared to be leaderless. So we 10 were all in charge. That's what I told 11 him." 12 Now, pausing there for a moment, Mr. 13 George, does that fairly capture what you told Mr. 14 Wright? 15 A: I don't remember telling him that, 16 but I probably -- I could have, yeah. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: I think that was an agreement, yeah. 19 Q: All right. So, first of all, you had 20 no intentions of talking with him and you had no 21 intentions of identifying a leader who could talk to him? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Okay. Then you go on in your 24 statement to say: 25 "At one point I went up there and I
711 swore at him, 'cause he was more or 2 less harassing us as far as I'm 3 concerned". 4 And again, is that a fair way of 5 characterizing how you regarded Mr. Wright's actions? 6 A: Characterizing his actions? 7 Q: As harassment? 8 A: Yes, 'cause he stood there with his 9 gun in plain view and we took that as a -- didn't want to 10 talk to anybody with their -- with a firearm. 11 Q: So just that I'm clear, as far as you 12 were concerned, when a member of the OPP was coming up to 13 the fence, asking to speak to the occupiers and whether 14 or not he had a gun at the side, but he was there to 15 speak to the occupiers, you regarded that as harassment? 16 A: Yeah, I guess I'd have to say yes. 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: I want to talk to you a little bit 22 about weapons. I understand, sir, yesterday, that you 23 acknowledged that you were aware that the occupiers were 24 accumulating stones, sticks, objects that would be able 25 to be used, I gather from your perspective, to defend the
721 occupiers? 2 A: For defence, yes. 3 Q: For defence, exactly. And is it fair 4 to say, sir, that efforts increased on September the 6th 5 to accumulate this material because there was an 6 increasing fear within the Park? 7 A: No, there was no extra effort given. 8 Q: There was no? 9 A: There was no extra evert -- extra 10 effort given on the day of the 6th. 11 Q: All right, so it was a steady 12 accumulation over the course of the -- 13 A: No, there was just one small pile of 14 rocks and it was there for two (2) days. 15 Q: I understand. All right. And as 16 you've already indicated, from your perspective they were 17 there in case there was a need to defend yourselves? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Okay. And again, I -- I suppose the 20 answer has already been given, but to make the record 21 clear, I trust you never communicated to the police that 22 that was going to be the purpose of those materials, that 23 they were for defensive purposes only? 24 A: You're asking me if I went and told 25 the cops that if they come in there, I'm going to hit
731 them with a rock? No, I never told them that. 2 Q: Thank you. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: You've been very clear, sir, that as 7 far as you were aware, there were no firearms in the 8 Park, correct? 9 A: That's correct. No firearms. 10 Q: And you fairly indicated yesterday 11 that somebody actually offered to bring a firearm into 12 the Park and at -- you made it clear to that individual 13 that they wouldn't be allowed in if that firearm came in 14 with them? 15 A: At the time it wasn't in the Park, it 16 was to be brought into the built-up area. 17 Q: The built-up area? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: All right. We've already heard 20 extensive evidence that for hunting purposes, firearms 21 were kept at the Army Base. I trust you don't disagree 22 with that? 23 A: I'm not a hunter, so I wouldn't know 24 who had what. I can't speak for what -- anybody else's 25 possessions. I can't.
741 Q: Are -- are you suggesting to us that 2 you never saw a firearm at the Army Base between May of 3 1993 and September of 1995? 4 A: Now that you mention it, I never ever 5 did see one, but I've seen game, so I -- I assume that 6 there was one. 7 Q: All right, fair enough. I -- I trust 8 it -- it's fairly well-known and notorious that, as you 9 put it, there was game at the Base. It was well-known 10 that a number of the occupiers did hunt? 11 A: Oh, yes. 12 Q: Okay. And, as a result of, for 13 example, ongoing contact that there was with meetings 14 with the police in 1993, and you spoke about some of 15 those meetings yesterday I understand, in -- 16 A: There was one (1), yeah. 17 Q: Was it just one (1)? 18 A: That I'm aware of. 19 Q: Okay, fair enough. Would it be fair 20 to say from your perspective that it was reasonable that 21 the police would have known that there were rifles at the 22 Base for hunting? Or can you answer that? 23 A: I -- I don't know what they -- what 24 they believe in. 25 Q: Fair enough. I was just wondering
751 if, as a result of anything you observed that you would 2 have thought that it was reasonable that the police would 3 have known that there were firearms at the Base? 4 A: Well, if they know we're natives, 5 they -- obviously they would assume that natives would 6 have something to do some hunting with. Wouldn't that be 7 fair to say, too? 8 Q: Thank you, sir, that's exactly the 9 question or the answer I was looking for. Thank you. 10 All right. Now, again, I trust that at no point was an 11 effort made to communicate to the OPP that no firearms 12 had come into the Park? 13 A: So you're asking us if we went to the 14 OPPs and told them, Hey, I haven't got a gun? 15 Q: Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. 16 A: No, not that I'm aware of. 17 Q: Thank you. We've heard evidence that 18 fireworks were set off during the days and evenings 19 between September the 4th and September the 6th. Were 20 you aware of that? 21 A: No, I'm not. 22 Q: Okay. And I trust, sir, you did not 23 hear any sounds on the night of September the 5th that 24 were consistent with fireworks or any other explosive 25 kind of sound?
761 A: No, I never. 2 Q: Okay. I want to talk to you a little 3 bit about the incident with Gerald George. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 5 going to be much longer, now, because it is 11:30. I 6 thought you might be done by recess, but you're not -- 7 should we take a morning break now and come back to you 8 or should we try to finish? 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I have about 10 another, probably ten (10) minutes, Mr. Commissioner, so 11 if you'd prefer a break now and, admittedly Mr. George 12 has been on the stand now for an hour and a half -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 14 minutes is good enough -- 15 THE WITNESS: I could sit here for 16 another ten (10) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 18 should finish your cross-examination. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, I 20 will press on. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 23 Q: You've already told us, sir, that you 24 were not present for the incident involving Stewart 25 George and Gerald George on the evening of September the
771 6th; correct? 2 A: No, I wasn't. 3 Q: All right. However, I'm going to 4 suggest to you that from everything you had seen and 5 heard over the course of September 4th to the 6th, it was 6 the first you had ever learned of any kind of an incident 7 between an occupier and an individual who was not a 8 police officer? 9 So, it was the first confrontation between 10 an occupier and someone who was not a police officer? 11 A: That's the first -- in that 12 description, yes, that's the first time I heard of it. 13 Q: Thank you, sir. You were aware, as 14 of the evening of September the 6th, of certain letters 15 that Mr. George -- Gerald George had written expressing 16 his concerns about firearms and the presence of firearms 17 amongst the occupiers; is that correct? 18 A: A certain letter pertaining to what? 19 Q: About the presence of firearms or his 20 concerns about firearms in the possession of the 21 occupiers. 22 A: Gerald wrote a letter pertaining to 23 that? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: I'm not -- I'm not aware of a letter.
781 Q: Or a newspaper article where he was 2 quoted? 3 A: I don't think he put it in a 4 newspaper. 5 Q: All right, then let me ask the 6 question this way. What were you aware of that he had 7 expressed about the presence of weapons amongst the Stony 8 Pointers? 9 A: At which point of time? 10 Q: As of the evening of September the 11 4th? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Well, I don't know where I heard it, 16 but I heard that he mentioned to the officer halfway down 17 there that he eyeballed some of the -- I believe it was 18 in the paper that he eyeballed some of the activity that 19 -- guns that we had -- 20 Q: Right. 21 A: -- on the 6th. I heard something 22 about that. 23 Q: Okay. Let me ask you a different 24 kind of a question, then. Did I understand your evidence 25 from yesterday correctly that on the evening of September
791 the 6th, you saw Mr. George speaking with a police 2 officer? 3 A: That afternoon. 4 Q: On the afternoon of the 6th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And did you have any 7 concerns at that time that he was providing information 8 to the police to the effect that there were firearms 9 amongst the occupiers? 10 A: No. 11 Q: You didn't have any concerns about 12 that at all? 13 A: No, it's just looked like he was 14 being stopped at a road block, that's all. 15 Q: All right. Again, I had read your 16 evidence from yesterday and unfortunately I didn't have 17 the benefit of actually hearing you yesterday, but I 18 gather then I've misunderstood that you actually saw him 19 in the evening of September the 6th, speaking to a police 20 officer? 21 A: That afternoon. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think it was 23 semantics. 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: It may be 25 semantics.
801 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 2 Q: Can you tell me what time of day it 3 was? 4 A: It would have to be after dinner, 5 before supper in that time frame. Exactly what time it 6 was I don't know. 7 Q: All right. Was it before or after 8 the incident, as you understood it to have taken place, 9 between Stewart George and Gerald George? 10 A: Well at the time I wasn't aware of 11 the incident but I later found out that it was after. 12 Q: Seeing him with the police was after 13 or the incident was after? 14 A: He -- I seen him with the officer 15 after the incident. 16 Q: Good, that's what I -- that's what I 17 had thought. All right. And I trust, then, it's your 18 evidence that at that time you had no concerns about what 19 Mr. George might be telling the police about the 20 occupiers? 21 A: No, I'm not going to get out the car 22 and go running over there and find out what they're 23 talking about. I -- 24 Q: No, I'm not asking -- 25 A: It was just normal to me.
811 Q: All right. Fair enough. You later, 2 though, I gather, learned that Mr. George told the police 3 something about the presence of firearms amongst the 4 occupiers? 5 A: That's along the lines, somebody -- 6 yes, I did hear that. 7 Q: All right. And I understand, sir, 8 that in the spring of 1996 you spoke with him about that? 9 A: I think it was the spring of '97, I 10 believe. 11 Q: I apologize, I had understood it was 12 '96, but that's neither here nor there. In any event, 13 you spoke with him about it and he did not deny that he 14 had told the police about the presence of firearms 15 amongst the occupiers. He rather indicated to you that 16 someone else had made him say that; is that correct? 17 A: His exact response was, I was told to 18 say that. 19 Q: You were -- he was told to say that? 20 All right, but he did not deny conveying that information 21 to the police, correct? 22 A: I did not -- well, for that answer, 23 yes, that would be he didn't deny it. 24 Q: Thank you, sir. All right, now you 25 advised yesterday that during the confrontation that
821 culminated in the -- in the death, the unfortunate death 2 of Dudley George, that you heard hundreds of shots fired. 3 Do I have that correct? 4 A: That was my recollection, my... 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: We've heard evidence, sir, that in 8 the hours following the shooting, certain occupiers went 9 into the area where the shots had been fired and 10 collected spent casings, bullets, various fragments. 11 Were you involved in that at all? 12 A: Not at that time, no. 13 Q: Not at that time? Were you involved 14 in that at some other time? 15 A: Only one (1) time I went down there 16 and -- the SIU did ask me to just to be -- sort of be 17 more comfortable in the area just to stand around and 18 watch while they sifted through some sand, yeah. 19 Q: All right. So you were present for 20 their investigation? 21 A: For just part of it. 22 Q: That's fair. That's fair. I don't 23 wish to overstate it. Did you yourself ever locate any 24 of these items that I'm describing as spent casings, 25 bullets, fragments?
831 A: After the SIU extracted two (2) out 2 of them out of the bus, and handing them to the SIU and 3 after their investigation was completed, we did find, me 4 and another fellow, I think it was two (2) or three (3) 5 chrome plated spent casings. 6 Q: Can you assist us, sir, perhaps with 7 the assistance of the map behind you, where you located 8 them? 9 A: Right in this area. 10 Q: All right. And for the benefit of 11 the record, you're referring to a part of the sandy 12 parking lot somewhere between the numbers 9 and 5 and 13 you've anticipated my next request, sir, which is can you 14 put number 10? 15 A: Number 10. 16 Q: Thank you where you found them? It 17 may be drying up a little bit. Thank you, sir. Sir, as 18 far as you were aware, and I know that you can't assist 19 us as to whether or not on the evening of September the 20 6th before the incident between Stewart George and Gerald 21 George you can't assist us as to whether or not there 22 were occupiers in that sandy parking lot armed with -- 23 with bats and sticks. 24 But I want to ask you this. Had you ever 25 heard or observed at any point between September 4th and
841 September 6th individuals in that parking lot armed with 2 sticks or clubs? 3 A: To both questions, no. 4 Q: Thank you. All right. So if we 5 heard evidence that in the early evening of September the 6 6th, there were occupiers in that area armed with clubs, 7 that was something new? 8 A: I didn't hear of them or I didn't see 9 them. I just answered that. 10 Q: All right. I think in affect you 11 have answered it and I'll move on. During the evening of 12 the 6th, the late afternoon of the evening of the 6th, 13 were you located mostly in the Park as opposed to back at 14 the Base? 15 A: On which day was that? 16 Q: The 6th, sir. 17 A: I was back and forth all day. 18 Q: You were back and forth all day? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. Would it be fair to say 21 that in the afternoon and evening of the 6th there was an 22 increase in the movement between the Park and the Base? 23 A: Not really. 24 Q: Even as concern started to increase 25 within the Park, there was no increase movement between
851 the Park and the Base? 2 A: There was an increase to the 3 maintenance shed because there was an underground tank of 4 gasoline that was being handed out to people. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: That's why they were going there. 7 Q: Okay. All right. We've talked about 8 fires in the Park. By the evening of September the 6th, 9 how many fires were -- were burning in the Park? 10 A: Two (2). 11 Q: Two (2). And had they been burning 12 in the Park consistently over the course of the three (3) 13 days? 14 A: I'd say that day and that evening. 15 Q: That day and that evening? 16 A: There was -- there was particular 17 fires, yeah. 18 Q: All right. So then the fires being 19 lit, that was something that was new for the afternoon 20 and evening of the 6th? 21 A: Those particular fires, yes. 22 Q: And the fires that you're referring 23 to, these are the fires that were -- was one (1) of them 24 relatively close to the store? 25 A: About twenty-five (25), thirty (30)
861 feet away, yeah. 2 Q: Okay. All right. And is the other 3 one down at the beach? 4 A: As indicated as number 1, number 2 5 right there. 6 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. That's again 7 one of the disadvantages of not having been here for 8 yesterday's evidence, thank you. I've heard somewhere, 9 sir, that the fence between the parking lot and the Park 10 itself, more in the area upwards towards, as you go 11 towards the beach area, that by the evening of the 6th it 12 had gotten flattened down a bit. Do you recall that? 13 A: It was flattened down anyways. It 14 was -- it wasn't as high as it is now but the fence is 15 just parts of the fence and yes a car could have drove 16 over it or anything could have drove it at the time, 17 yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And in the early evening of 19 the 6th, did you notice that there was movement by 20 vehicles between that sandy parking lot and the Park 21 itself? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. Thank you. You indicated 24 yesterday, sir, that you were unaware of any decision 25 that had been made to move women and children out of the
871 Army Camp? 2 A: Oh, no, I said there was no decision 3 made. 4 Q: Fair enough. All right. I trust, 5 sir, and -- and again you couldn't be at all places at 6 the same time -- you were unaware of efforts by Marlin 7 Simon to have women and children moved from the Army 8 Camp? 9 A: Yes, I was unaware of that. 10 Q: Okay. Mr. George, you've been very 11 patient with me. Thank you, sir, for your time. 12 A: You're welcome. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much. We'll now take a fifteen (15) minute break. 15 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 16 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 11:47 a.m 19 --- Upon resuming at 12:07 p.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed. Please be seated. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much. Good afternoon, Ms. Jones. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Good morning. Good
881 morning. 2 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Mr. George, I'm Karen Jones, I'm one 6 (1) of the lawyers who is with the Ontario Provincial 7 Police Association. Can you hear me? 8 A: Not -- not very -- not good as I used 9 to hear the other ones. 10 Q: Is that better? 11 A: That's better. 12 Q: There we go, I just wasn't -- I 13 wasn't organized here very well. 14 Mr. George, Mr. Millar, yesterday, asked 15 you some questions about governance, about how the people 16 at Stony Point were governed when you first moved -- when 17 -- when people first moved into the Base and over the 18 course of time? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I -- I wanted to ask you some 21 questions about that, too. So, that's where I'm going to 22 start. We had heard that Maynard T. George was initially 23 the Chief of the occupiers at the Army Camp back in 1993? 24 A: Yeah, I believe he was -- that was a 25 result of the first election they had, yeah.
891 Q: Yeah. And then after that we heard, 2 I think in about August of 1993, there was another 3 election and Carl George was the Chief? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Is that about right? And when Carl 6 George was the Chief, I understand that you were one (1) 7 of the Councillors? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. And can you help us 10 understand, in 1993, what did it mean to be the Chief? 11 What was the Chief's role? 12 A: I can tell a Councillor's role, but I 13 was never a Chief, so -- 14 Q: Okay. Did you work with Maynard T. 15 and did you work with Carl? Yeah? 16 A: Yeah, we -- we had a working -- we 17 had a working relationship where we -- 18 Q: Sure. 19 A: -- took our -- took our directions 20 from a group of Elders, yeah. 21 Q: Okay. When you say that you took 22 your directions from a group of Elders, was there a 23 recognized group of people that actually gave other 24 people directions? 25 A: Anybody down in Stony Point ain't
901 recognized at this point, so -- 2 Q: No, no, no, in -- in 1993? 3 A: Recognized by who? 4 Q: Okay. Let me go back a little bit. 5 I had understood that in 1993 there were elections, or at 6 least -- or a couple of elections -- 7 A: Yes? 8 Q: -- and that there was a Chief and a 9 Councillor. 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And -- and Councillors, sorry. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I'm just trying to get an idea of 14 what that meant. What did the Chief do and what did the 15 Councillors do and -- and let me just start back a little 16 bit earlier when you said that you could tell us what it 17 meant to be a Councillor because you were one (1) of 18 them. 19 And what did that mean to be a Councillor 20 back -- 21 A: Well -- 22 Q: -- in 1993? 23 A: Well, at that time, we felt it was 24 maybe a step forward into maybe getting the attention of 25 the federal government as to talk to us, and, like, to --
911 on an official, an official entity. 2 Q: So -- okay -- 3 A: So we kind of -- that was our hopes 4 of formulating it, yes. 5 Q: Okay. So if you had a Chief and if 6 you had Councillors, it was more likely that you would be 7 a group that would be recognized by the government as 8 someone it could work with? 9 A: It was -- 10 Q: Is that right? 11 A: It was an attempt, yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And so do I understand that if 13 you were formally organized into a Chief and Council that 14 your view was that the government would deal with you 15 directly as opposed to the Kettle and Stony Point Band 16 Council? 17 A: They would, hopefully at the time, 18 listen to us and know that we're there and we're a 19 People. 20 Q: Right. Did -- did you want the 21 government to deal with the Stony Point -- with the 22 people at the Army Camp, with the Stony Point people that 23 were there, directly and separately and differently, from 24 the Kettle and Stoney Point Band? 25 A: That was our hopes, yeah.
921 Q: Okay. And so forming that formal 2 organization with a Chief and Councillors, was one (1) 3 way to accomplish that? 4 A: That was our goal, yeah. 5 Q: Okay. So that talks about the role 6 of the Chief and Councillors, in a way, to the outside 7 world, to the federal government or the people -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- outside of the Camp? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: In terms of inside the Camp, did 12 having a Chief and a Councillor mean anything in terms of 13 the governance of the Camp itself? 14 A: Yeah, I couldn't -- I believe we had 15 no less than two (2) meetings and we've had quite a bit 16 of people there attend, yeah. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: So it obviously meant something to a 19 lot of the people. 20 Q: Okay. So one (1) of the things that 21 the Chief and the Councillor did was hold meetings? 22 A: Yes, we did. 23 Q: And you held meetings for who? 24 A: For the people living in the Camp or 25 whatever they wanted to discuss.
931 Q: Okay. 2 A: Their concerns. 3 Q: Okay, and if issues or concerns were 4 expressed at those meetings, and you said there were two 5 (2) meetings? 6 A: That I -- 7 Q: That you -- 8 A: -- know of, yeah. 9 Q: Okay. Would you or the other 10 Councillors or the Chief take any action on behalf of the 11 rest of the people or whoever had expressed concerns? 12 A: Not, I believe that -- those, what do 13 you call them, minutes of those -- minutes, but -- those 14 two (2) meetings it was basically all internal problems. 15 Q: Okay. And so would the Chief or the 16 Councillors or you as a Councillor have any role in 17 helping to sort out those internal problems? 18 A: Yes, we tried to talk them out with 19 the people concerned. Like the two (2) parties, if 20 somebody had a grievance with another party, we tried to 21 get both parties there. 22 Q: Okay. And was there anything else 23 that the Chief did or you did as a Councillor or the 24 other Councillors did in terms of the internal problems 25 in the Camp?
941 You've told us now that you had a couple 2 of meetings, that you recall, and that people would talk 3 about their problems and you'd try to bring people 4 together. Was there anything else that you did? 5 A: Not that I can recall. Like, my 6 memory could be refreshed but I can't did anything out 7 right now. 8 Q: No, no, okay. That's fine. And 9 you've talked about -- did those two (2) meetings take 10 place in 1993, do you remember? In the first year that 11 people were at the -- 12 A: I -- 13 Q: -- Camp? 14 A: -- believe so, I think so. 15 Q: Okay. And did anything change in 16 1994 in terms of who the Chief was or who the Councillors 17 were or what you did or how you did it? 18 A: I'm not too sure about the times, but 19 which Chief and Council are you speaking of? 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: There was two (2) groups -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- that were elected. 24 Q: Okay. Help me understand which were 25 the two (2) groups that were elected.
951 A: First it was Maynard T. -- 2 Q: He -- 3 A: -- he was the Chief and the second 4 was Carl when he was a Chief. 5 Q: Sure. And Carl, we heard, was the 6 Chief in 1993. 7 A: He was the later -- later of it, 8 yeah. 9 Q: Yeah. And so between 1993 and 1994 10 or during 1994, was there any changes in the Chief or in 11 the Councillors? 12 A: Somewhere along the line Carl stepped 13 down. 14 Q: Okay. Now I think you told us in 15 your evidence yesterday, that you didn't know whether 16 Carl stepped down or whether he was asked to step down. 17 Do you recall that? 18 A: Yes, I remember saying that. 19 Q: Yeah, yeah. And you also said 20 yesterday that you were down there talking to him one (1) 21 day in 1993. And I wasn't sure from what you said why 22 you were talking to him then. Was it because he had 23 stepped down or because -- 24 A: Well I talked to him a number of 25 times --
961 Q: -- something else was going on? 2 A: -- on different issues but you've got 3 to be more specific if you want me to answer a specific 4 time -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- and where. 7 Q: Okay. Let me -- let me just ask you 8 a little bit differently then. Did you ever have any 9 conversations with Carl George after he stepped down or 10 was asked to step down? 11 A: Not after he stepped down, no. 12 Q: Okay. Was he someone that you had 13 worked with as a Councillor for a while? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Were you surprised when he stepped 16 down or was asked to step down? 17 A: I don't want to say the word 18 surprised. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: But maybe kind of, a certain amount, 21 yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And I take it that it would 23 have been a significant thing to have someone step down 24 or be asked to step down? 25 A: Not -- not really. It's the second
971 time it happened in a short period of time. 2 Q: Okay. And did you ever talk to other 3 people in the Army Camp about why Carl George had stepped 4 down or had been asked to step down? 5 A: Not that I can recall as to the 6 reason, no. 7 Q: Okay. We heard some evidence earlier 8 from Marlin Simon and that was back in October, he said 9 that people were upset with Carl George because they 10 believed he was making deals with the military and some 11 people didn't like that. Was that -- 12 A: Yes, I heard those rumours, yeah. 13 Q: Okay. Was -- was that anything you 14 knew about? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. Who did you hear that from? 17 Do you recall? 18 A: Just -- there was a sort of like 19 common information around, yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And we also heard earlier that 21 Carl George had gone to the media and denounced people 22 living on the Base. Was that something that had heard 23 about or knew about? 24 A: No I -- he went to the media? That's 25 the first time I heard about that one (1).
981 Q: Okay, okay. And I think you had told 2 us yesterday that you didn't recall when Carl George 3 either stepped down or was asked to step down. Can you 4 help at all in terms of was it in 1993 or 1994? 5 A: No, I don't recall. 6 Q: Okay. And what happened after Carl 7 George stepped down or was asked to step down? What 8 happened in terms of the governments at the Camp. Was 9 another Chief elected or did the structure change or did 10 nothing happen to replace him? 11 A: Well, we've selected -- well there's 12 -- there are in place, principal men. 13 Q: I'm sorry? 14 A: There was principal men put into 15 place and they still exist today. 16 Q: Okay. And so after Carl George 17 stepped down or was asked to step down, which principal 18 men were put into place? 19 A: It was me and Glenn. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And I think Clifford was still there, 22 he was an Elder and my dad, he was still alive. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I think that's just about it. It was 25 mostly me and Glenn at the time, yeah.
991 Q: Okay, mostly you and Glenn. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. And did that happen fairly 4 soon after Carl George stepped or was asked to step down? 5 A: I don't know, it was sooner or later, 6 I don't know. 7 Q: Okay. The same year -- 8 A: It was probably later. 9 Q: Later? Within weeks, within months? 10 A: I couldn't answer that, no. 11 Q: Okay. By the summer of 1995, were 12 you and Glenn in place as being the principal people? 13 A: Yes. I said we are still that today. 14 Q: Sure. But I was just wondering as of 15 the summer of 1995? 16 A: Were we as -- what are you asking me? 17 Q: I'm sorry. By the summer of 1995, 18 let's say by June of 1995? 19 A: Yes, we were. 20 Q: You were? Okay. And when you say 21 that you were principle people that were put in place, 22 again, can you help us understand what that means to be a 23 principle person? 24 Did you have some particular 25 responsibilities or some particular tasks that you
1001 carried out? 2 A: Well, at that time it was mostly 3 dealing with internal issues mostly and with the Military 4 and media and just stuff like that. 5 Q: Okay. So, do I take it then, if 6 people had problems or concerns internally they could go 7 to you or to Glenn George? 8 A: Not all the time. 9 Q: No, but you were available if they 10 wanted to do that? 11 A: We were principle men, we weren't -- 12 what do you call them -- psychologists or anything. We 13 were -- 14 Q: No. No. I'm just trying to get a 15 better idea of what the -- what "principle" means. 16 A: Yes, yes, yes, they could have if -- 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: -- they wanted to, yeah. 19 Q: Sure. And in terms of dealing with 20 the Military, do I understand that if the Military had 21 problems or concerns with the occupiers that they could 22 come to you and talk about it? Or to Glenn George? 23 A: If they had a problem? 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: I wouldn't know, you'd have to ask
1011 them that. 2 Q: Okay. Did -- over the course of time 3 or in 1995, did people from the Military come to you or, 4 if you know, to Glenn George, if and when they had 5 concerns about the occupiers? 6 A: Just the one (1) time that I recall, 7 but I don't know if it was in the form of coming to talk, 8 it was more or less we had a concern with them when one 9 (1) of their personnel slashed tires on, I believe, it 10 was Marlin Simon's ATV. 11 Q: Okay. And who did you go see at the 12 time about that? 13 A: I wasn't there at the time; I was at 14 my house in Kettle Point, but -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- Glenn came later and told me. 17 Q: Okay. So, you didn't have any role 18 in that? Glenn did? 19 A: Well, I went -- I woke up and I went 20 down there just so there'd be more presence of people 21 there, yeah. Q: Sure. 22 A: Find out what happened. 23 Q: Sure. And did you have any contact 24 with the Military about that incident? 25 A: Not about that incident, no.
1021 Q: Okay. Do you know if Glenn did? 2 A: Pardon? 3 Q: Do you know if Glenn did? 4 A: I think he kind of went to the 5 gatehouse, but he was treated -- he'd have to answer that 6 himself, but I knew which led to charges. He -- they -- 7 he ended up getting charged for something. 8 Q: Glenn went to the gatehouse -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- and he ended up being charged? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And in terms of the media, can 13 you help us under -- oh, sorry, let me just back a bit. 14 You said there was one (1) time that you 15 dealt with the Military as a principle person, or you or 16 Glenn did so far as you knew, and that was around the 17 slashed tire incident. That was the -- if you had 18 ongoing sort of daily problems over the course of time -- 19 A: No, not really -- 20 Q: -- would you ever talk to anyone? 21 A: -- no there was no -- there wasn't an 22 ongoing thing, it was -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- like, it wasn't a problem. 25 Q: Okay. And in terms of the media, can
1031 you tell us what you did as a principle person in the 2 media -- to communicate with the media? 3 A: Well, mostly they'd be showing up at 4 the gatehouse and I -- a couple of occasions I went and 5 seen what their intentions were, what they wanted, yeah. 6 Q: Okay. If people in the media wanted 7 to speak to one (1) of the occupiers in the Army Camp, 8 would they have -- did they -- did people ever call you 9 directly or come to you directly? 10 A: If somebody -- who? If who wanted to 11 talk to who? 12 Q: If someone in the media wanted to 13 talk to someone about the occupiers in the Army Camp? 14 A: No, all we did was, well, ask and if 15 anybody wanted to talk to them, then go ahead. 16 Q: Okay. Just -- just so I understand 17 then, so I'm clear, being a principle person at that time 18 meant people could come to you with internal problems, 19 but they might not do that? They might go somewhere else 20 or deal with it themselves? 21 A: Well, I don't know how many unknown 22 internal problems existed. Nobody does. 23 Q: Sure. And in terms of the military, 24 there was one (1) incident where you were involved with 25 the -- you or Glenn were involved with the military that
1041 you know about. 2 A: That I could recall of it. 3 Q: Yeah. And in terms of the media, if 4 you were there and media were there at the Camp, you 5 might talk to them or you might not? 6 A: I'd find out what they wanted, yeah. 7 Q: Sure. Or other people would do the 8 same thing? 9 A: Oh yeah. 10 Q: Sure. So was that kind of the scope, 11 then, of what your role as being a principle person was 12 in the summer of 1995? 13 A: What -- what are you asking? Scope? 14 Q: Scope. Were there any other things 15 that you did as a principle person? And again, one -- 16 one of the things that's hard for me, and it may be hard 17 for other people and maybe the Commissioner would like to 18 know or get a better understanding, is what was -- 19 A: Well, we -- 20 Q: -- what was -- 21 A: Express where you're coming from -- 22 Q: Yeah -- 23 A: -- okay, yeah -- 24 Q: Yeah, I just -- we're just trying to 25 find out what your role was.
1051 A: More -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you both 3 talk at the same time, then the transcript won't -- 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 5 sorry. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay, I understand your 7 question now. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 10 Q: Okay, sorry if I was unclear. 11 A: From time to time we'd be sitting 12 around, we'd sit around the fires where I had, like, 13 little meetings and talk to the young guys. The young 14 guys were like -- everybody would just sit around and 15 talk would help, sort of like, seeking a form of comfort. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Like relaxation type of thing. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: I guess to offer moral support and -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: That's -- 22 Q: Okay, so there was a bit of, sort of, 23 mentoring or being one of the older people that was 24 involved in being the principle person? 25 A: Well I wasn't that old then. I was
1061 ten (10) years younger then. 2 Q: That's right. 3 A: I wasn't considered as an old man. 4 Q: When you said, talking to the younger 5 guys, I take it -- 6 A: Younger guys than me, yeah. 7 Q: Younger -- younger guys than 8 yourself. 9 A: Meaning older than them, yeah. 10 Q: Yeah, yeah. So you had a bit of a 11 role in terms of talking with them and seeing how they 12 were doing? 13 A: We tried the best we could, yeah. 14 Q: Yeah. Okay. Was there anything else 15 that you did as a principle person that you can tell us 16 about? 17 A: Oh, I'll have to say, no, I guess. 18 Q: Okay. Now you told the Commission 19 yesterday that you knew that the Kettle and Stony Point 20 Band Council didn't condone the occupation of the Base. 21 Is that right? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: Yeah. Now, did you as first of all a 24 Councillor and then a principle person, did you have any 25 role in dealing with Kettle and Stoney Point Band
1071 Council? 2 A: No, not really, no. 3 Q: Okay. And I take it at the time you 4 were living in -- that is, in 1993, 1994, and up to July 5 29 of 1995, that you were living in Kettle Point? 6 A: Yeah at one (1) time. 7 Q: Yeah, yeah. And during that time, 8 did you have discussions with people that were also 9 living at Kettle Point about the occupation? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Not that I can recall. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: No. 15 Q: And did you have any discussions at 16 all with Kettle and Stoney Point Band Council or any of 17 its Councillors or the Chief about the occupation? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No, okay. And do you know whether 20 during 1993, 1994, and 1995, if there were any 21 discussions going on between the Kettle and Stony Point 22 Band Council and people at Stony Point regarding 23 Ipperwash -- the Ipperwash Base, itself? 24 A: Well, at the begin -- at the time 25 there might have been, but I wasn't aware of any.
1081 Q: Okay. 2 A: I was not part of them. 3 Q: Okay. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And -- and I don't want to -- I just 8 wanted to ask you one (1) more question. As a Councillor 9 or later on as a principle person at the Base, did you 10 have any communications with the Ontario Provincial 11 Police in that capacity as a Chief -- as a principle 12 person or as a Councillor? 13 A: Any contact with them -- 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: -- in that capacity? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: I think I earlier stated that we 18 didn't go in and I kind of believe it was Marlin went to 19 Grand Bend on that occasion, and just tried to talk to us 20 concerning Carl's resignation or whatever. 21 Q: Concerning Carl's -- 22 A: Stepping down, yeah. 23 Q: Okay. So that -- 24 A: We just wanted to know what was up 25 and what was --
1091 Q: Okay. And that's when you went and 2 spoke with Charlie Bouman? 3 A: I believe so, yeah. 4 Q: Yeah, and I -- that probably would 5 have been around 1993? 6 A: I -- 7 Q: Does that -- does that make sense -- 8 A: -- take it -- 9 Q: -- about the time Carl stepped down 10 or was asked to step down? 11 A: It would have to be after, yeah. 12 Q: Yeah, okay. And did you have any 13 dealings with the Provincial Government in your capacity 14 as a Councillor or as a principle person? 15 A: The Provincial Government? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Did you have any dealings with 19 the Federal Government in your capacity as a Councillor 20 or a principle person? 21 A: Not yet. 22 Q: No, okay. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1101 Q: I anticipate down the road that we'll 2 hear some evidence that in 1994 a general agreement had 3 been reached between the Federal Government and the 4 Kettle and Stony Point Band about turning over the Army 5 Base back to the Band. 6 Did you know anything about that? 7 A: I've heard it on radio, yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And when you heard about that 9 on the radio, did you then have any discussions with 10 anyone at the Kettle and Stony Point Band about what was 11 going on or what the agreement was or how, if at all, 12 you -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- and the other Stony Pointers would 15 be involved? 16 A: Did I what? 17 Q: Did you have any discussions at all 18 at that time with the Kettle and Stony Point Band about 19 the agreement? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And I anticipate that we'll 22 hear evidence that one (1) sticky point, one difficulty 23 in the turning over of the Army Base related to an 24 environmental assessment and clean up of the Base. 25 Did you know anything about that?
1111 A: Difficulties? 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: As pertained to -- 4 Q: The -- 5 A: -- difficulties to what? 6 Q: To the environmental assessment and 7 clean up of the Base. 8 A: Which time was that? 9 Q: In 1994. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I'm trying to place that. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I've always known part of it. But 16 you're asking me if I heard about it? 17 Q: Sure. Did you know anything about 18 it? 19 A: Well, not really, but I'm just trying 20 to place it. It was at the time when, you know, it was 21 the same time when the Kettle and Stony Point Band 22 stopped it. 23 Because if that's the time you're -- 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: -- referring to --
1121 Q: Yeah, yeah. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 3 Yes, Mr. Ross ...? 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I'm just wondering, 5 Mr. Commissioner, that is this a general questioning or 6 is it referring to a specific document which is in the 7 list, because I'd just like to refer to it. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 9 sure. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: It's a general 11 question. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A general 13 question, Mr. Ross. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 17 Q: And were you at the Base or at the 18 Army Camp in 1994 when M & M Dillon (phonetic) brought in 19 the clean up equipment? 20 A: They brought clean up equipment in? 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: Obviously I wasn't there. It's the 23 first time I heard about it. 24 Q: Okay. And going back to your role as 25 a principle person, would you expect to know about or be
1131 involved in discussions about significant things that 2 were going on with the occupiers in the Army Base? 3 A: Notified by who? 4 Q: By the people in the Army Base, by 5 the rest of the occupiers. 6 A: You're asking me -- 7 Q: I'm asking you as a principle person, 8 you've told us that you and Glen George were and -- 9 A: Yeah, I understand -- 10 Q: -- your dad, Abraham and -- and maybe 11 Carl George were principle people, the principle men, for 12 the occupiers in the Base. And what I'm asking you is, 13 as a principle person would you expect to know about or 14 be involved in discussions about significant events? 15 If something important was going to happen 16 where people were planning to do something that was 17 important, would you as a principal person expect to be 18 involved in those discussions? 19 A: Not -- not individual rules. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: Not -- not individual rules, like 22 there were intents, like everybody -- I'm saying 23 individuals. Everybody has their own û 24 Q: Sure. 25 A: -- their own intentions about
1141 everything. 2 Q: Okay. Was there any time when the 3 group decided to act in a particular way and there was a 4 consensus or there was an agreement reached about that? 5 A: You're speaking of any kind of an 6 event? 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: Yeah, we had a New Year's feast one 9 (1) time. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Everybody agreed to bring a certain - 12 - certain meal to the cookhouse and we had a feast for 13 New Year's. 14 Q: Okay. Was that the only û 15 A: That's an event, ain't it? 16 Q: Sure. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: Were -- as a principal -- let me just 19 go back a bit. At the -- at the Base among the occupiers 20 was there any sort of course of conduct or rules that 21 people agreed to follow among themselves? Or did they 22 all act as individuals? 23 A: Or did they what? 24 Q: Or did they all just act as 25 individuals?
1151 A: As far as their way of life, like 2 going to cut wood, nobody needed permission to go and cut 3 wood or anything. It's daily business as usual. 4 Q: Right. In some communities when 5 people are living together, one of the things that they 6 do, sometimes more formally by writing out rules and 7 sometimes less formally by agreement, there's sort of a 8 code of conduct or rules or expectations that are set out 9 that people need to follow. Is there any û 10 A: Yeah I understand. 11 Q: -- was there anything like that in 12 among the occupiers? 13 A: Yes. It's called respect. 14 Q: Okay. And how -- how was that 15 communicated and how was that enforced? 16 A: You respect everybody. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Meaning you respect people, people 19 respect you back. 20 Q: Sure. 21 A: That's it. That's the code of 22 conduct. 23 Q: Okay. How would people in the -- how 24 would people in the Camp, the occupiers or people coming 25 into the Camp to spend time with the occupiers, know
1161 about that rule of respect? Would someone tell it to 2 them or how -- how would people know about that? 3 A: Well, they came there to show support 4 and, to me, that is a form of respect as well. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And you don't go there and give 7 something and take it away on them, it's called an Indian 8 giver. A little bit of humour there. Sorry. 9 Q: If people acted in a way that wasn't 10 respectful towards each other, were there any kind of 11 consequences for that? 12 A: Well, if they disorderly and, say, 13 intoxicated, they were asked to leave. 14 Q: Okay. And who would ask them to 15 leave? 16 A: Pardon? 17 Q: Who would ask them to leave? 18 A: Any of the residents. 19 Q: Okay. So anyone could do that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Now you told us yesterday that 22 you knew nothing about any meetings or any discussions 23 about moving into the built-up area? 24 A: I knew nothing about it, yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And you told us that you
1171 didn't know people were planning on doing that? 2 A: No, I never. 3 Q: Okay. On October 12th we heard from 4 Marlin Simon that on the day the built-up area was taken 5 over, there were people who were in -- at the Base from 6 Moraviantown and from Muncie and from Chippewa, the 7 Thames and Oneida and Walpole and Sarnia. 8 And he told us that he and other people at 9 the Base had told a large number of other people about 10 their plans to takeover the built-up area because they 11 wanted to have a lot of people there on their side and 12 you're telling us that you knew nothing about that? 13 A: Well, if I knew something about it, I 14 probably would have been there. 15 Q: Okay. And we've heard some evidence 16 already and I'll -- I anticipate that we will hear more 17 that during the summer of 1995 there was an increase in 18 tension between the occupiers and the -- and the -- and 19 the Military people. Did you know anything about that? 20 Were you aware of that? 21 A: Tensions? 22 Q: Pardon me? 23 A: What -- what do you mean by "increase 24 in tensions"? 25 Q: That there were more problems between
1181 the occupiers and the Military? That there were more 2 incidents. We heard, for an example, of the tire slashing 3 incident and we've heard that one (1) of the Military 4 persons was captured by the occupiers? 5 A: He wasn't captured, he -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- he was -- more or less turned 8 himself in because he was drunk. 9 Q: Were you there at the time? 10 A: After -- afterwards. 11 Q: Okay, okay. When you say, "he turned 12 himself in," what -- what do you mean by that? 13 A: Nobody captured him, he just -- 14 Q: No? 15 A: -- because I think he gave Glenn -- 16 he'd have to answer that -- he left behind his -- he gave 17 him his military coat and his watch and I'm -- I'm not 18 sure how he got back to the built-up area. 19 Q: Okay. Were you aware that in 1995, 20 in July, that the Department of Natural Defence had 21 called in Bruce Elijah to help the Military try to 22 diffuse or deal more effectively with the situation 23 between the occupiers and the Military? 24 A: You're asking me if I -- 25 Q: If you were --
1191 A: -- was aware of it at the time? 2 Q: Sure. 3 A: No, I wasn't. 4 Q: Okay. And did you know that in or 5 about August 1st of 1995, that the people at Kettle 6 Point, in a meeting, voted to have warriors and Mohawks 7 or the outsiders leave the Base? 8 A: I don't know, I wasn't there. 9 Q: You never heard anything about that? 10 A: No, I wasn't there. 11 Q: Okay. Are you aware of a Camp that 12 was set up on the beach in June of 1995 by the occupiers? 13 A: A Camp? 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: A couple of them, yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And I anticipate that we'll 17 hear some evidence that there were pole around that Camp 18 flying the Mohawk warrior flag. Did you ever see that? 19 A: What's your definition of a Mohawk 20 warrior flag? 21 Q: Did -- did -- let me just back, then. 22 Were -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- were there poles around the Camp 25 flying flags or a flag? Do you know?
1201 A: Yes, there was. 2 Q: Okay, and do you know what was on 3 that flag or flags? 4 A: At which location? 5 Q: Okay. For -- well, let's go back, 6 then. How many Camps were there on the beach in June of 7 1995? 8 A: There was -- it differed. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: But we had one (1) main Camp there, 11 yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And were -- was there a pole 13 or poles with flags on -- a flag or flags around that 14 Camp? 15 A: Not that I can recall there. 16 Q: Okay, do you recall any Camp on the 17 beach in June of 1995? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: That had flags? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No? Okay. And you told us that you 22 weren't at -- you weren't present on July of 20 -- July 23 29th, 1995, when the occupiers took over the built-up 24 area? 25 A: That's correct, that's what I said.
1211 Q: That's right, yeah. And, do you know 2 whether or not Burt Manning and Les Jewel had any 3 discussions with the OPP on that day? Did you ever talk 4 to them about that or did they ever talk to you about 5 that? 6 A: No, they never mentioned. 7 Q: Okay. And I understand that a lawyer 8 for the occupiers was also in the built-up area at the 9 time. Did you know that? 10 A: I didn't have no lawyer at the time. 11 Q: Okay. And I anticipate that we'll 12 hear some evidence that the OPP were back on the Base on 13 July 31st of 1995, trying to establish communications 14 with the occupiers. Did you know anything about that? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. And, again, I understand that 17 the OPP were back on August 31st and met with Rose 18 Manning and Glenn George and others. Did you know 19 anything about that? 20 A: No, no. 21 Q: Okay. And I understand that in the 22 summer of 1995, there was a fatal car accident off the 23 Base and two (2) people were killed. 24 Were you aware of that? 25 A: Off of the Base, which part of -- yes
1221 I do. I kind of -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- I wasn't there, but I still recall 4 it. 5 Q: Okay. And I understand that there 6 were discussions between the occupiers and the OPP over 7 the course of the summer about that incident and about 8 what could be done to prevent similar accidents. 9 Did you know anything about that? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And I want to move now into 12 September and ask you some questions about the entering 13 into the Park. You told us that in the summer of 1995 14 there were discussions about taking over the Park. Do 15 you remember that? 16 A: From time to time there -- 17 Q: Sure. 18 A: -- there was, but -- 19 Q: Sure. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And you had said that you and your 22 brothers and Glenn George and his brothers were involved 23 in those discussions? 24 A: From time to time, like, it was never 25 a sit down discussion.
1231 Q: Okay. Just people talking about it? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: In general terms? And you've told us 4 a little bit about some of the outsiders that were in the 5 Base over the summer. You've talked about the Isaac 6 brothers, the Jewel brothers and Buck Doxtator, for 7 example. 8 Would any of those people have been 9 involved in those discussions? 10 A: What did you call them, first? 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: You said "outsiders"? You're talking 13 about -- 14 Q: People who -- 15 A: -- two (2) different -- 16 Q: -- people -- 17 A: -- groups of people, here. 18 Q: Okay. You told the Commissioner 19 yesterday that there were a number of people who weren't 20 Stony Pointers, if I can put it that way -- 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: -- who were on the Base and Mr. 23 Millar walked you through a number of names. He'd asked 24 you about the Isaac brothers, he'd asked you about the 25 Jewel brothers, and he asked you about Buck Doxtator and
1241 some other people, so -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- those are the people I'm referring 4 to. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Were they involved in the discussions 7 about taking over the Park? 8 A: Oh, I think his line of questioning 9 was asking me if they were there the night of the 10 shooting and if they were part of the entry to the Park 11 which I was not there, so I can't answer that. 12 Q: Okay. And I'm asking you to go 13 before that and -- and I'm asking you -- 14 A: I don't know -- 15 Q: -- if they were involved -- 16 A: They was -- none with me that I can 17 recall. 18 Q: Okay. And I take it that because you 19 knew that the Kettle and Stoney Point Band Council 20 disagreed with you occupying the Base, I take it that you 21 could reasonably expect that if you occupied the Park in 22 addition, that would also be a problem with them. 23 Did you think about that? 24 A: It would be a problem to them, you 25 say?
1251 Q: Yeah. 2 A: I don't know if it would be a problem 3 to them. I really didn't care if it would be a problem 4 to them or not. 5 Q: It didn't make any difference? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And did you care or think 8 about whether or not any of the local people, such as the 9 cottagers, would be concerned or upset if you took over 10 the Park? Did that ever enter your mind? 11 A: Well, I imagine they would have been 12 upset a bit because it's taking their so-called tourist 13 trade and their economy, whatever they -- that's all they 14 were concerned about, I believe. 15 Q: Okay. Was that anything that you had 16 thought about before you -- before, in the summer of 17 1995? The effect on the -- 18 A: It's not something I thought -- 19 Q: -- local people? 20 A: -- about, but -- 21 Q: No? 22 A: -- it should have been something 23 that, yeah, could have been -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- should have been considered, yeah.
1261 Q: Okay. And did you ever think about 2 or consider whether or not the provincial government 3 would disagree with or have concerns about the occupation 4 of the Park in the summer of 1995? 5 Was that something you'd ever thought 6 about or talked about? 7 A: Well I'd have to say no to that one 8 (1). 9 Q: Okay. Do you agree with me that it 10 would be a big step for the occupiers to take over the 11 Park? 12 A: It would be a big step? 13 Q: Yeah. 14 A: No. The big step was when we on to 15 the ranges. 16 Q: Okay. When you went on to the 17 ranges, just so -- okay, let me just go back a little 18 bit. What I was thinking about, it seemed to me that the 19 Park would be different than the Base. In terms of the 20 Base, there was always an expectation on your part, I 21 take it, and others, that the federal government would 22 return that expropriated land, that is the Base, to you 23 at some time? 24 A: No, they would have to return that 25 parcel of land and which falls under the title of unceded
1271 territory in its entirety. 2 Q: Okay. We've heard evidence previously 3 that the Base itself was expropriated I believe in 1942 4 and I may have the date wrong, but it was some time 5 around then, and that at the time there was a promise 6 that was made -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- that the Base would be -- the 9 expropriated land which was the Base, would be returned 10 to Kettle and Stony Point Band. Was that your 11 understanding? 12 A: I understood it was to be returned to 13 the Stony Point people, yes, after the war. 14 Q: Okay. And one of the differences 15 with the Park was that Park had not been expropriated in 16 1942 by the federal government. It was different than 17 that. 18 A: No, not really. 19 Q: No? And another difference is that 20 it was provincial property as opposed to federal 21 property. Do you agree with that? 22 A: Can you say that again? 23 Q: Another difference would be when you 24 entered onto the Base, you were dealing with the 25 Department of Natural Defence in the federal government,
1281 but the Park was a provincial park. Did that make any 2 difference to you? 3 A: No. Again it was our understanding 4 that is part of our unceded territory. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Millar, could we 6 have Exhibit P-40? Sorry, I should have asked you before 7 I got up here. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: Sorry, Mr. George, this will -- 13 A: That's okay. 14 Q: -- just a second. I ought to have 15 been -- talked to Mr. Millar sooner than this. My 16 apologies. 17 And when you talked about unceded 18 territory, I'm just wondering if you can help us 19 understand in your view -- and we have on the screen P-40 20 which is a map that shows an area encompassing the 21 Ipperwash military reserve, the Ipperwash Provincial 22 Park, and some areas to the east and to the west of that. 23 Can you tell us in your view, looking at 24 that map, what on that map to you is unceded territory? 25 And you're just --
1291 A: Kind of shaky. 2 Q: Okay. And what you're -- just 3 because we're getting a transcript, you have to talk 4 about what you've done and so I'm going to -- 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: -- describe it and if I got it wrong, 7 you can tell me. You have used the pointer to outline 8 the entire block that's set out in that map. 9 So you started at the -- at the south at 10 Highway 21 -- 11 A: South, you mean Highway 21? 12 Q: -- Highway 21 and western most 13 boundary of that is Army Camp Road and the eastern most 14 boundary of that is Outer Drive? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And there's a straight line on the 17 diagram that goes from Highway 21 directly to Lake Huron. 18 And so -- and on the west side there's a straight line 19 that goes from Highway 21 and Army Camp Road directly 20 north to Lake Huron? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So, it's a square? 23 A: Pardon? 24 Q: They -- so, it's -- it's a -- it's 25 sort of a square that you've outlined for us?
1301 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I understand from others or maybe 3 you can help us understand, on the northeast corner of 4 that block that you've just described, we've been told by 5 other witnesses that that area -- yeah, right up in that 6 area -- the north -- the top right-hand corner, that that 7 area contains a number of cottages. 8 It's part of a development? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: That's right? And in your view, is 11 that part of the unceded lands? 12 A: Yes, it is. 13 Q: Okay. And on the top left-hand 14 corner of the map, we can see that to the west of the 15 Ipperwash Provincial Park there is a block of land. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And that's in the top left -- the 18 very top left. 19 A: Which way do you mean? 20 Q: That way -- on the far side. 21 A: You mean off the map? 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: Yeah? 24 Q: Yeah, in that block and I understand 25 that that block also includes a number of cottages.
1311 A: Oh, yeah. 2 Q: Yeah. And in your view, that's part 3 of the unceded territory, too? 4 A: No, it's not. 5 Q: Oh, okay. Sorry, I thought I'd 6 understood when you were using your marker that you were 7 going on the line from -- 8 A: No, that's -- 9 Q: -- Army Camp Road directly -- 10 A: -- that's the boundary there; you 11 asked me what the boundaries were. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: And that's what -- what you see there 14 for the unceded territory. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps -- maybe I 16 could help My Friend. Exhibit P-40 shows the former 17 military reserve and the line up on the upper left-hand 18 side, what you're seeing there is Ipperwash Provincial 19 Park, which is a whole area. 20 That's Ipperwash Provincial Park and there 21 may be just at the -- where the line stops, where the 22 access road is, but in that -- on Exhibit P-40, this 23 whole area is -- that's Matheson Drive; it goes over to 24 Army Camp Road. Army Camp Road goes down to here, then 25 turns into --
1321 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: East 2 Parkway. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- East Parkway and 4 the access road is somewhere -- the sandy parking lot is 5 in this area here. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's on the 7 inside of that boundary. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. It's all the 9 Provincial Park; there are no cottages in here. The 10 cottages are in this little square over here. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. And 12 what -- where do the cottages begin on the other side? 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, that's what I'm 14 just trying to clarify. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 16 you're trying to -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: And I'm trying to ask 18 some questions about that because when I -- and -- and 19 I'll ask him some questions on it. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't 21 you pursue that. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: When -- if -- we've heard -- we've 25 heard some evidence previously about -- at or around the
1331 intersection between Army Camp Road and East Parkway that 2 there's a sandy parking area and then there is -- the 3 Park itself now -- or at the time was delineated by a 4 fence. 5 And my understanding is and maybe you can 6 help me with this, is that if Army Camp Road extended 7 straight north to the lake, that that would encompass 8 both the sandy parking lot and some of the cottage area 9 that is to the west of the sandy parking lot? 10 A: No, the boundary is that fence line. 11 There's a fence line that protrudes. It takes a break 12 with the sandy parking lot and then it continues beside 13 that cottage. 14 Q: Okay, just so I understand, are you 15 saying -- 16 A: You -- you're using the road as a 17 boundary and I'm using the -- the fence line as a 18 boundary. 19 Q: Okay. And which fence line are you 20 using as a boundary? Are you using the fence line -- 21 A: The same one (1) that runs along Army 22 Camp Road. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: It runs all the way along. 25 Q: Okay.
1341 A: And it takes a break to enter that 2 access. 3 Q: Okay, I understand. I -- so, if -- 4 if -- yeah. So, if we look directly behind you, sorry, 5 Mr. George? Right behind you is another document. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: And that's a diagram of East Parkway 8 and Army Camp Road. 9 A: Here's the break and it continues 10 here. 11 Q: Okay. So, if that fence continued on 12 north without any interruption, that would then take you 13 to the -- just to the edge of the cottages on the west 14 side of the Park. Is that right? 15 A: About thirty (30) -- forty (40) feet 16 away, yeah. 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And I wanted to ask you some 22 questions about September the 4th and you told us that on 23 that day you had been -- there had been a fire down on 24 the beach and you were roasting a pig? 25 A: I believe that was the time, yeah.
1351 Q: And there were a number of people 2 that were down on the beach with you? 3 A: Oh yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, 5 you're just getting into September the 4th. I think this 6 would be a good point to stop -- 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and have 9 a break. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And have you 12 continue after lunch. Is that all right? 13 MS. KAREN JONES: That is absolutely 14 fine. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So it's 16 almost exactly one o'clock. Why don't we break until 17 2:15? 18 Mr. Millar, did you want to say something 19 before we have a break? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? We'll 22 break now for lunch until 2:15. Thank you. 23 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 1:02 p.m.
1361 --- Upon resuming at 2:19 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed, please be seated. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: You ready? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 8 Commissioner. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 11 Q: I had started, Mr. George, wanting to 12 talk with you about starting with September 4th before 13 the break. So I just wanted to let you know, I'm going 14 to be asking you some questions about September the 4th 15 just so -- 16 A: Sorry? 17 Q: -- about September the 4th -- 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: -- just so you know what I'm doing. 20 And you had confirmed your evidence from 21 yesterday that on the afternoon of September 4th, you had 22 been out on the beach with other people and there was a 23 fire and you were roasting a pig. 24 And I think you told us you heard that 25 there were a police officer or officers down by Matheson
1371 Drive by the water? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yeah. And that you went down in your 4 car with Warren George? 5 A: Stewart George. 6 Q: Sorry, I'm sorry, yeah. And you were 7 driving your TransAm? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. And do you recall if at the 10 time you had a US Rebel flag rear license plate on your 11 TransAm? 12 A: Never. 13 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not 14 the night before, that is on September 3rd, there had 15 been a fire, a bonfire or some kind of a fire lit in the 16 area where the police were? 17 A: Which location where the police are 18 you talking about? 19 Q: I'm talking about on September the 20 4th when you heard that there were police down on 21 Matheson Drive by the water. 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: I'm asking you whether you know if 24 there had been a fire in that location the night before? 25 A: Not the night before, no.
1381 Q: Okay. Because I anticipate that the 2 police will say they were there because there had been a 3 fire there the night before and there was wood with nails 4 in it. 5 A: In the afternoon there was, yeah. 6 Q: That afternoon? 7 A: I believe so, yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And do you agree that there 9 was one (1) police car there at the time with two (2) 10 police in it? 11 A: Not by the time I got there, there 12 wasn't. I wasn't there when the bonfire was there. I 13 was at my residence in Kettle Point. 14 Q: Okay. And so when you went back late 15 -- sorry, when you were told that there were police down 16 at Matheson Drive by the water -- 17 A: It's the 3rd or the 4th. 18 Q: On the 4th. On the 4th? 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Okay? And you went down with 21 Stewart? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yeah. And there were two (2) women 24 in the car as well, I think? 25 A: Not that I can recall, no.
1391 Q: No? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. And I'm just going to -- 4 suggesting to you that when you went down to Matheson 5 Drive to check it out with Stewart George, that there was 6 one (1) police car there with two (2) police men in it, 7 does that ring a bell? 8 A: Yeah. There was officers there, 9 yeah. 10 Q: Yeah. And I'm going to suggest that 11 you drove towards the police at a high rate of speed? 12 A: No, I never. 13 Q: Okay. And in fact you almost slid 14 into the -- into the police car? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No? And I understand from your 17 evidence yesterday that you had been drinking that day? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You had had about twenty (20) beers 20 by that time? 21 A: No. That was on -- yeah, it was -- 22 it was that day, okay. 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Yeah? And I'm going to suggest that
1401 you then stopped the car very close to the police car? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And do you recall Stewart was yelling 4 at the police from inside the car? 5 A: I don't think from inside the car. 6 Q: Okay. And then I'm going to suggest 7 to you, threw his door open really forcefully into the 8 police car? 9 A: No, it -- the car door flew open on 10 its own. 11 Q: When the -- when your car was 12 stopped? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: The door just flew open? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. Stewart then got out? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And, did you hear Stewart George tell 19 the police, Do you know how many gun sites or do you how 20 many crosshairs are aimed at your head from the sand 21 dunes? 22 A: No, I never heard that. 23 Q: Okay. And quite soon after you got 24 to the police car, do you agree with me that a number of 25 other occupiers arrived on the site?
1411 A: Yeah, a few of them -- 2 Q: Yeah? 3 A: -- attended, yeah. 4 Q: Pardon me? 5 A: Yes, a few of them came back. 6 Q: Yeah? 7 A: Came up there, yeah. 8 Q: And that they were gathered around 9 the police car? 10 A: Not so much on the police car, they 11 were mostly on -- I'll call it the east side of Matheson 12 Drive, but they weren't surrounded as you're suggesting. 13 Q: Okay. And when that happened, more 14 police arrived? 15 A: I think there was a total of three 16 (3). I might be mistaken, there was more than one (1), 17 but I don't know if there was any more than three (3). 18 Q: Okay. And do you recall that a 19 police officer, Stan Korosec, arrived and he tried to 20 speak with you? 21 A: I don't know the guy's name, I don't 22 know. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: He could be standing there today and 25 I still wouldn't know him.
1421 Q: Okay. In any event, you've told us 2 earlier today that you wouldn't talk to the police. 3 A: No, I didn't think I did. 4 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest that 5 situation was getting more tense between the occupiers 6 that were -- that were at Matheson Drive and the police? 7 A: Well, somebody kind of asked me what 8 the problem was. 9 Q: Yeah? 10 A: Why they were there. 11 Q: Yeah? And was there some yelling at 12 the police as well? 13 A: Yeah, I believe so. 14 Q: Yeah, and then the police left? 15 A: Pardon? 16 Q: And then the police left? 17 A: Eventually they did, yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And you told us that after 19 that you told David George to get out his chainsaw and 20 cut trees to block Matheson Drive? 21 A: No, I didn't say that -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- after they left. 24 Q: So -- 25 A: I did not say that after they left.
1431 Q: Okay, did you say that when they -- 2 when the police were there? 3 A: I said that before they left. 4 Q: Okay. I'm sorry, I got the -- I got 5 the timing of it wrong. In any event, you told David 6 George to get his chainsaw and cut trees to block 7 Matheson Drive? 8 A: No, I asked him if he still had his 9 chainsaw in his trunk. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: In his vehicle. 12 Q: Right. And he told you that he did. 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Right. And did you suggest to him 15 that he cut trees down -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- to block Matheson Drive? 18 A: If the police didn't leave, yeah. 19 Q: Yeah. And he did, in fact, cut the 20 trees down? 21 A: After they left he did. 22 Q: Yeah. And, I understand that at -- 23 at or about that time, the gate between Matheson Drive 24 and Army Camp Road also got blocked off? 25 A: Yes.
1441 Q: Were you there when that happened? 2 A: Yes, I was. 3 Q: Yeah? And what did you do after the 4 gate was locked or blocked off? 5 A: That day? 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: I probably went back to the Campsite. 8 Q: Okay. And I think you told us after 9 that that you went back to Kettle Point? Is that right? 10 A: Well, eventually I did, yes. 11 Q: Okay. And even as late as the 12 afternoon of September the 4th, after the trees had been 13 cut to block Matheson Drive and the gate had been blocked 14 off between Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road, you still 15 didn't know that the occupiers intended to take over the 16 Park? Is that right? 17 A: No, I never. 18 Q: Okay. Nobody ever said a word to you 19 about that? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And you told us that later in 22 that day, that is, on September the 4th, you went back to 23 the Park once you heard it had been taken over? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yeah? And you were driving the red
1451 Nova at the time? 2 A: I wasn't driving nothing. 3 Q: Sorry, your wife was driving the red 4 Nova -- 5 A: Yes, she was. 6 Q: -- because you were -- you still were 7 intoxicated? 8 A: Well, yes I was -- considered myself 9 to be impaired, yeah. 10 Q: Yeah. Okay. And you told us that 11 you got to the Park and I think you went to the area by 12 the store? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yeah, and you saw that there were 15 some police cars parked there? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Do you remember how many there were? 18 Police cars? 19 A: I'd say there'd have to be three (3) 20 at least, three (3). 21 Q: Okay. And I anticipate we'll hear 22 evidence that you started yelling at the police in the 23 police cars? Do you recall that? 24 A: Not immediately. After talking with 25 my father and a couple of other guys and --
1461 Q: Right. 2 A: -- I did, yeah. 3 Q: Okay. And do you recall yelling, 4 where's the fucking head OPP? Or words to that effect? 5 A: No, I don't recall saying that, no. 6 Q: Okay. Do you recall yelling at the 7 police, I thought I told you fuckers to get off our land? 8 Now, get off. Or words to that effect? 9 A: I probably -- I might have, yeah. 10 Q: Yeah. And we heard earlier from Glen 11 Bressette on November the 9th, that George Speck 12 (phonetic) was one of the police officers that was there, 13 do you remember that? 14 A: Yes, he -- he was there as well. 15 Q: And do you remember calling George 16 Speck a fucking Nazi? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And telling him to get the fuck out 19 of here? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Yeah. And I take it you then smashed 22 the windshield of the police cruiser? 23 A: I'd given them twenty (20) seconds, I 24 believe, yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And I think you told us that
1471 there were a number of occupiers in the area. Fifteen 2 (15) or sixteen (16)? 3 A: Probably about that much, yeah. 4 Q: Okay. And there were six (6) or 5 seven (7) police there? 6 A: At least. 7 Q: Yeah. And so you'd agree with me 8 that the occupiers outnumbered the police? 9 A: Maybe in -- in bodies. 10 Q: In numbers? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: That's all, yeah. 14 Q: And do you agree with me that a 15 number of the occupiers had clubs or sticks or other 16 weapons in their hand? 17 A: I don't recall seeing any of them. 18 Q: Okay. And do you agree that at that 19 time, it was a tense situation between the occupiers and 20 the police? 21 A: Not really. I didn't consider it an 22 intense situation, no. 23 Q: No? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Yelling at the police, swearing at
1481 the police -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- breaking the windshield of the 4 police cruiser? 5 A: Until that -- no. 6 Q: And when you broke the windshield of 7 the police cruiser, it got tense? 8 A: When they refused to leave, yes. 9 Q: Yeah. And I'm going to suggest to 10 you that at no time had the police ever raised a hand to 11 you or bothered you while they were at or in their 12 cruisers. They were simply standing or sitting there. 13 A: Some were standing and, yes, I'd have 14 to agree with you that no, I didn't see any of them raise 15 a hand. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: That's my recollection, yeah. 18 Q: Right. And we've heard from a number 19 of witnesses that flares were also thrown at the police. 20 Do you recall that? 21 A: I don't recall seeing any flares. 22 Q: Okay. And the police then left? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yeah. And Ms. Tuck-Jackson asked you 25 some questions this morning about did you ever see
1491 fireworks in the Park on September 4th, 5th, or 6th. But 2 I just want to ask you one (1) more question about that. 3 Did you ever see or hear firecrackers in 4 the Park, September 4th, 5th or 6th? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. Now, we've heard from a number 7 earlier witnesses in this Inquiry about the defensive 8 efforts that the occupiers made in the Park on September 9 the 5th and the 6th. 10 And part of them, and I just want to get 11 you to -- I just want to see what of that you recall. 12 The turnstile into the Park was blocked, do you recall 13 that, with the dumpster? 14 A: No. The turnstile wasn't blocked. 15 Q: Wasn't blocked? 16 A: No. 17 Q: There was no dumpster in front of the 18 turnstile into the Park? 19 A: No, not the turnstile. 20 Q: Okay. Was there one (1) in front of 21 the gate? 22 A: Yes there was. 23 Q: Okay. And the entrance to Matheson 24 Road was blocked? 25 A: I believe it was, yeah.
1501 Q: Okay. And the main gate was blocked? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Yeah. And we've heard that 4 observation posts were set up. Did you know about that? 5 Especially -- 6 A: By the OPP? 7 Q: No, by the occupiers. 8 A: No, I didn't. 9 Q: And we heard that the Park was being 10 patrolled. Did you know about that? 11 A: It was patrolled by who? 12 Q: The only thing I'm asking you about 13 is what the occupiers were doing. So, when I say -- when 14 I suggest to you that the area was being patrolled, I 15 mean the Park area and it was being patrolled by the 16 occupiers. 17 A: Oh, yeah, probably, yeah. 18 Q: Yeah. Did you know that was being 19 done? 20 A: Not at the time, no. 21 Q: Okay. And we've also heard that 22 weapons were being gathered and that included the 23 gathering of rocks, did you know that? 24 A: On the day of the 6th, yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And clubs, did you know about
1511 that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And bats, did you know about that? 4 A: No so much the bats, but there was 5 some homemade clubs. 6 Q: Okay. So were -- were people cutting 7 down trees to make those clubs? 8 A: I don't know. I wasn't there 9 watching them. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I guess you'd have to get a piece of 12 wood from a tree I imagine. 13 Q: I guess so. And people were 14 gathering metal poles, did you see that? 15 A: Yeah. I had -- I had a metal pole 16 myself leaning against a tree. 17 Q: Yeah. And bricks, did you see that? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And you told us that gas was being 20 handed out at the maintenance building on the 6th? Can 21 you tell us about that? 22 A: In vehicles, yeah. 23 Q: So people were driving to the 24 maintenance building? Is that -- 25 A: Well they'd have -- they'd have to to
1521 get their vehicle there to get the gas. 2 Q: Right. And the vehicles were being 3 filled up with gas? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. And did you know that at least 6 one (1) person was putting gas in gas cans, did you see 7 that? 8 A: Probably for storage for later -- 9 Q: Right. 10 A: -- later date, yeah. 11 Q: Sure. Did you know if more than one 12 (1) person was doing that? Did you see that? 13 A: No. I wouldn't have, no. 14 Q: Okay. And during that period the 15 occupiers in the Park were walking around the Park openly 16 with weapons in their hand? That is bats and sticks and 17 metal poles? Did you see that? 18 A: Are you asking me if I seen that? 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: Maybe on one (1) occasion on, in 21 around the scene of the shooting, on the day of the 6th, 22 yeah. 23 Q: Okay. And was that in the area that 24 is east of the sandy parking lot? 25 A: No. It was in that area plus inside
1531 the fence, yeah. 2 Q: Right. And we've seen a newspaper 3 report in this Inquiry where a newspaper reporter says 4 that on September the 6th, he was outside the Park and he 5 saw occupiers swearing at reporters and that they had 6 bats and clubs. And I take it that's consistent with 7 what you saw? 8 A: I don't know what a reporter seen. I 9 can't answer what he seen. 10 Q: Did you during the course of day on 11 September 6th see reporters outside of the Park? 12 A: I might have, but I don't recall 13 those -- 14 Q: You don't recall that? 15 A: -- not of importance to me who they 16 were. 17 Q: Okay. And we also heard that there 18 was people driving back and forth between the Park and 19 the Base to make police think that more people were 20 there. Do you recall that? 21 A: We did that almost every day, I 22 believe. 23 Q: Okay. And that there were cars doing 24 donuts in the area and a mock car chase. 25 Did you see that?
1541 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: Okay. And did you or anyone else 3 organize this activity, that is the building up of 4 defences in the Park? 5 A: Did I partake them? 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: Is that what you're asking? 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: In the building of the defences or do 10 you mean the fence itself or? 11 Q: No, the building up of defences; that 12 is taking steps so that you could defend the Park if you 13 wanted to or you needed to. So getting weapons 14 together -- 15 A: I made sure -- 16 Q: -- patrols 17 A: I made sure I had my stick for 18 myself, yeah. 19 Q: Yeah. And did you -- did you help 20 organize the setting up of the defence of the Park? Did 21 you give instructions to anyone or -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- talk to other people about what to 24 do? 25 A: No.
1551 Q: Did you hear anyone else organizing 2 the setting up of the defences? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. And so I take it it was a 5 little bit like what happened on the Base is that people 6 really acted independently and did whatever they thought 7 they needed to do? 8 A: As to what are you pertaining? 9 Q: As -- as -- hmm? 10 A: Pardon? What is -- 11 Q: You told us earlier this morning that 12 when people were living on the Base -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- that they really acted 15 independently. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And I'm just suggesting to you that 18 the same thing was happening in the Park. People were 19 acting pretty independently and doing whatever each 20 person thought they needed to do to get ready to defend 21 the Park? 22 A: I'd have to say yes. 23 Q: Yeah. And you -- sorry, you also had 24 given some evidence yesterday that your two (2) daughters 25 and your wife were using mirrors to reflect light into
1561 the polices' face? Do you recall that? 2 A: Yes, they were. 3 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. 4 George, that all of those actions were actions that would 5 add to the tension of the situation, that is, all of the 6 steps that you and other people in the Park were taking 7 to -- to put together your defensive measures are all 8 things that added to the tension of the situation. 9 A: It's called survival. 10 Q: Sure. But, if you were outside the 11 Park and watching that go on, it would be of a concern. 12 Do you agree with me? 13 A: Well, the OPP were there watching us. 14 I never was becoming intense or anything, I can't speak 15 for them. 16 Q: Sure. And you told us yesterday and 17 a little bit about this morning about an incident when 18 Mark Wright and a female police officer came up to the 19 fence of the sandy parking lot? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you told us yesterday that Mark 22 Wright was in plain clothes. Do you recall that? 23 A: Yeah, yes. 24 Q: And you knew that at least Mark 25 Wright wanted to talk to you or someone in the Park?
1571 A: That was probably his intentions. 2 Q: Yeah? And just -- I'm not sure I -- 3 I'm clear about your evidence, did you know of other 4 instances on the 4th, 5th, or 6th, when police had tried 5 to communicate with the occupiers in the Park? 6 A: Not to my knowledge at that time, no. 7 Q: And I think you told us yesterday 8 that you politely told Mark Wright to fuck off? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: Yeah. And do you agree with me that 11 in the past when the occupiers were in the Base or in the 12 built-up area that if there were problems or situations 13 going on that you had been able to work it out one way or 14 the other with the police? That there had been 15 communication between the occupiers and the police? 16 A: There was one (1) incident where, 17 well, we did have a meeting inside the Base, yes, with 18 them. 19 Q: Right. And do you agree with me that 20 when you were in the Park that was the first time that 21 all the occupiers refused to speak to the police? 22 A: All of them? I don't know -- 23 Q: Did -- 24 A: -- I can't speak for all of them. 25 Q: Did you know of any -- anyone who
1581 spoke with the police? 2 A: I know if anybody spoke to the 3 police? 4 Q: In terms of communicating what was 5 going on in the Park? 6 A: I don't know, I can't answer for what 7 happened when I wasn't there. 8 Q: Okay. And do you agree with me that 9 it's important when people are in a situation like you 10 were in and the occupiers were in in the Park and you 11 know the police are there and you know the police are 12 responsible for maintaining law and order, that you set 13 up communication lines with them and so you know what the 14 police are doing and the police know what you're doing? 15 A: I didn't know what they were doing. 16 Q: Okay. Do you think it would have 17 been helpful if you had communicated to the police what 18 you and others were doing in the Park and what you 19 intended to do? 20 A: We weren't there to talk to the 21 police. 22 Q: I know you weren't, but my question 23 to you is, do you agree with me that it would have been a 24 helpful thing if you or someone in the Park had spoke 25 with the police and let them know what you were doing and
1591 what you intended to do? 2 A: It wouldn't have done any good. If I 3 would have thought it would have done any good, sure it 4 would have been helpful. 5 Q: Okay, and it might well have had the 6 effect of helping diffuse the situation. 7 Do you agree with that? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Why? 10 A: They didn't have no reason to come 11 down the road the way they did in the middle of the 12 night. 13 Q: Okay, we're talking about the 4th -- 14 A: We -- we didn't do nothing to lead up 15 to that. 16 Q: Okay, so it wouldn't have helped on 17 the 4th? Is that what you're saying? 18 A: I don't know, you'd have to ask them 19 that. 20 Q: Well, I'm asking you what your views 21 are? 22 A: If it would have helped on the police 23 force? I don't know. 24 Q: If you think it would have helped to 25 diffuse the situation, if you or someone from the
1601 occupier group had spoke with the police on September the 2 4th and let them know what you were doing and why you 3 were doing it? 4 A: Honestly, I don't know if it would 5 have helped or not. 6 Q: Okay. And on the 5th, do you think 7 it would have helped if you or someone from the occupier 8 group had let the police know what you were doing and 9 what you intended to do? 10 A: They didn't ask us those questions 11 that I know of. They didn't ask me. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: So far as I know, they didn't ask 14 anybody anything. 15 Q: Okay. And on September the 6th, when 16 Mark Wright came up to you, he asked to talk. Did you 17 think it would have been helpful to talk to him, to -- 18 A: I don't -- 19 Q: -- let him know what was going on 20 and -- 21 A: -- know what he was there for. 22 Q: -- what you were doing? Sure. But 23 you told us yesterday you knew Mark Wright wanted to 24 talk. 25 A: Probably did, because I didn't think
1611 he was there for anything else. 2 Q: Sure. And instead of talking to him 3 you told him to F off and you refused to talk to him. 4 A: Again, I answered yes. 5 Q: Yeah. Now you told us yesterday 6 about an incident that -- involving Marlin Simon, David 7 George, and Dudley George and I think you told us 8 yesterday that you weren't there at the incident but 9 someone had told you about it. Do you remember that? 10 A: Which incident is that? 11 Q: You were telling Mr. Millar that 12 there was an incident involving Marlin Simon, David 13 George, and Dudley George where someone had said to 14 Dudley, you're going to get it first, or words to that 15 effect? 16 A: Oh, in along the fence line, yeah. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: I was not there, but that's what I 19 heard. 20 Q: Okay. And I think you told us you 21 couldn't remember who told you about -- 22 A: No, I can't. 23 Q: -- this incident? And do you recall 24 if it was before or after you left the Park on September 25 the 5th? Did you get --
1621 A: On September the 5th? 2 Q: Yeah, did you get told -- 3 A: No, I believe it was on the 6th, I'm 4 sure. 5 Q: You got told about it on the 6th? 6 A: I believe so, yeah. 7 Q: Okay. Would that have been -- do you 8 remember when you got told about it? 9 A: No, I don't know. I wasn't there. 10 Q: Okay. No, sorry. Do you remember 11 when you were told about it? 12 A: No, I don't recall, but I did hear 13 about it -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- eventually, yeah. 16 Q: Was there anything else that whoever 17 told you about the incident said about it? 18 A: No, not really. 19 Q: Okay. So nobody said anything about 20 a line of police marching down East Parkway in formation? 21 A: In the morning? 22 Q: The person -- the person who told you 23 about the incident involving Marlin Simon, Dudley George, 24 and David George -- 25 A: Yes.
1631 Q: -- where someone said something, one 2 -- when -- somebody told you about an incident where 3 those three (3) people were present and a policeman 4 apparently said words to the effect like, you're going to 5 be the first to get it or -- 6 A: Yes -- 7 Q: -- something like that -- 8 A: -- I know which incident you're 9 talking about -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- the other part I don't understand 12 what you're asking. 13 Q: Okay, I'm just trying to find out 14 what you were told about the incident -- 15 A: Just -- 16 Q: -- and you've -- just so I'm clear, 17 you've told us you don't know who told you or when they 18 told you, and I'm just trying to find out if you were 19 told any more details about that incident than what 20 you've already told the commission. 21 A: I think I've answered them already. 22 Q: And the answer is, you -- you were 23 told nothing else? 24 A: No, not that I can recall. 25 Q: Okay. So -- and so nobody in --
1641 concerning that incident with Marlin Simon, David George, 2 and Dudley George, nobody told you anything about a line 3 of policemen marching down East Parkway in formation? 4 A: It's news to me. 5 Q: And nobody said anything about pepper 6 spray? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And nobody said anything about 9 throwing rocks at the OPP? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And nobody said when it happened, did 12 it happen in the daytime or at night time? No? Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And I now want to move onto September 17 the 6th, okay. I'm just going to tell you what I'm going 18 to ask you about, 'cause sometimes it's helpful to orient 19 your thinking a little bit. 20 You've told us that you were told early in 21 the morning, I think by Robert Isaac, that the OPP were 22 coming into the Park? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yeah. And when you went -- so you 25 went with him and other people back to the Park?
1651 A: No, he left and I got up and went 2 down there by myself. 3 Q: Okay. Did other people from the 4 Base, if you know, go to the Park about the same time? 5 A: Eventually, yes. 6 Q: Okay. Because there's a -- I 7 anticipate that we'll hear some evidence that the picnic 8 tables were removed by the OPP at about 8:30 on the 9 morning of September the 6th -- 10 A: I don't know exactly what time, I 11 wasn't there. 12 Q: Sure. And according to that report, 13 within minutes of the picnic tables being removed, twelve 14 (12) cars or so arrived from the Base. And men got out 15 of the cars carrying baseball bats and large wooden 16 clubs. Did you see that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: When you went into the Park, were you 19 carrying a bat or a club or a stick? 20 A: I don't think so. 21 Q: Okay. And in that report it also 22 says during the course of the day on September the 6th, 23 you were seen with your steel pole. Do you agree with me 24 that you had a steel pole or poles or a metal pole on 25 September the 6th?
1661 A: Yeah. It was about maybe three (3) 2 to four (4) feet long, yeah. 3 Q: Okay. And that you were throwing it 4 around and in the trees, do you recall doing that? 5 A: No, I wasn't. 6 Q: Okay. And I then want to move onto 7 later in the day on September the 6th. And you've told 8 us that you recall when Cecil Bernard George arrived in 9 the Park? 10 A: That's that evening, yes 11 Q: Yeah. And you told us that you first 12 saw him in the evening about ten o'clock, is that right? 13 Ten or eleven o'clock? 14 A: I can't pinpoint it. I'd have to say 15 it would be around that time. 16 Q: Okay. Was it dark when you first saw 17 him? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And maybe you can help us a bit. 20 About that time of the year, that is September the 5th, 21 if you can turn your mind back a little bit, does it 22 usually get dark about 8:30, 8:00, 8:30, 9:00? 23 Is that about -- 24 A: Well, about that time of the year, 25 it's starting dark a little earlier, yeah.
1671 Q: Yeah. What time do you think it gets 2 dark by in early September? 3 A: I don't know. I really can't tell 4 you about what time it got dark that day. 5 Q: Oh I'm not -- I'm not thinking about 6 that day. I'm just trying to -- 7 A: Well, that's what you're asking me. 8 Q: Sorry, in general terms. It gets -- 9 it's starting to get dark a little bit earlier by 10 September. 11 A: Yeah. It is, yes. 12 Q: Somewhere between 8:00 and 9:00 it 13 gets dark, do you agree with that? 14 A: Probably a little earlier maybe. 15 Q: A little earlier than 8:00? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. Now we've heard from another 18 witness that when Cecil Bernard George came to the Park, 19 he came with his three (3) brothers, Burger, Finn, and 20 Albert. Do you know Finn? 21 A: I never seen who he was with, no. 22 Q: Okay. My question to you is do you 23 know Finn George? 24 A: Who? 25 Q: Finn George, Cecil George's brother?
1681 A: Finn? 2 Q: Finn. 3 A: Are you saying Finn? 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: I don't know who you're talking 6 about. 7 Q: Okay. And do you know Cecil Bernard 8 Georges's brother Albert? 9 A: Albert? 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: I probably know his nickname. 12 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you help me out 13 then with who Cecil Bernard George's brothers are? Or 14 what their nicknames are? 15 A: I don't know who they all are. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: I know there's Burger and -- 18 Q: Right. 19 A: -- Jeremiah I think is his brother. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I think. I don't know who the rest 22 are. 23 Q: Okay. And when you -- when you saw 24 Cecil Bernard George on the evening of September the 6th 25 or the night of September the 6th, was he with any of his
1691 brothers? 2 A: I don't know. I don't know who he 3 came from the beach with. 4 Q: Okay. And you told us that Cecil 5 Bernard George gave you a scanner when he got there? 6 A: I believe it was a scanner, yes. 7 Q: Okay. And was that the first time 8 that you'd seen Cecil Bernard George that day? 9 A: That day? 10 Q: That day on September the 6th? 11 A: I don't know. That day he might have 12 been around there that day. I don't know where he goes. 13 That evening was the first time I seen him, yes. 14 Q: Okay. And the reason I was asking 15 you is -- is we've heard some evidence that he was there 16 earlier in the day as well. 17 A: He might have been. I don't recall. 18 Q: Okay. And you told us that at some 19 point when Cecil Bernard George got to the Park, he and 20 others went down East Parkway on a scouting expedition? 21 A: A couple of them yes. 22 Q: Yeah. And was Cecil Bernard George 23 wearing camouflage clothes, do you recall? 24 A: No, I don't recall what he was 25 wearing.
1701 Q: Okay. And you told us that he might 2 have gone down the road on a scouting expedition with 3 Dave George? 4 A: With --- I said Dave might have been 5 there but I'm pretty sure that fellow called Kevin, 6 pardon me, Kevin Thomas, I'm -- I'm pretty sure he went 7 down the road as well. 8 Q: Okay. And who is Kevin Thomas? We 9 haven't heard of him before. Is he someone that's a 10 Stony Pointer or is he someone that's new? 11 A: No, he was -- he was just in the area 12 visiting, I believe. He was with my brother. 13 Q: And had you seen him in the Park 14 before that night? 15 A: I might have, but I don't recall 16 seeing him. 17 Q: Okay. And was Buck Doxtator one (1) 18 of the people that went down the road with Cecil Bernard 19 George? 20 A: He might have been, but like I said, 21 I don't recall who all went down the road, even how many. 22 Q: Okay. And you've told us that when 23 Kevin Thompson and Cecil Bernard George and maybe other 24 people went down the road, someone came back and you 25 understood that there was a cable or a telephone wire --
1711 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- along the road. 3 A: That was Kevin Thomas. 4 Q: Kevin Thom -- and you told him to cut 5 it? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yeah. And you've also told us -- and 8 I just want to ask you some questions about the area in 9 and around the sandy parking lot. You told us that there 10 was no street light or floodlight -- whatever language is 11 right -- on the corner of East Parkway that that didn't 12 get put in until the next year. 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Is that right? And that the street 15 or the floodlights at the store were off? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And so, in terms of lighting in the 18 area, there was a cottage that had its porch lights or 19 outside lights on? 20 A: Yeah, it was on the side of it, yeah. 21 I believe. 22 Q: Yeah, and the store had lights on 23 inside it. 24 A: On its interior, yeah. 25 Q: Right. And there were two (2) fires
1721 burning, one (1) was on the beach and one (1) was inside 2 the fence -- 3 A: No, it was -- 4 Q: -- east of the sandy parking lot. 5 A: -- there was one (1) at the turnstile 6 and there was one (1) closer to the beach. 7 Q: Okay. And you also said that there 8 were cars with spotlights? I think you said there were a 9 couple of cars with spotlights? 10 A: Two (2) I believe, yeah. 11 Q: Okay, do you know where they were? 12 A: Where they were? 13 Q: Yeah. 14 A: Inside the fence. 15 Q: Okay. If you turn around to that map 16 behind you -- 17 A: I know one (1) was in Waldo's car and 18 I don't -- I kind of think the other one (1) might have 19 been in Dave's car. I'm not sure on that. 20 Q: Okay, one (1) was, sorry, in whose 21 car? 22 A: Dave. 23 Q: Yeah? And the other one was in -- 24 A: In, I believe Waldo's car. 25 Q: Okay, and do you know where Waldo or
1731 Dave's cars were parked? 2 A: I could remember Waldo's car was down 3 in this area here. 4 Q: Okay, and just -- just so -- to put 5 it on the record because it's hard with this, but you 6 have to put it in words. 7 A: On the inside of the fence. 8 Q: On the inside of the fence and it's 9 actually north -- 10 A: North of the turnstile. 11 Q: North of the turnstile? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And was there a parking lot 14 there at the time? 15 A: On the inside? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay, and was he parked in the 19 parking lot or was he in the -- closer to the fence? 20 A: He was parked behind the fence, yes, 21 in the parking lot. 22 Q: In the parking lot, okay. And Mr. 23 Millar asked you some questions about people who were in 24 the Park and he asked you some questions in particular 25 about some of the people who were in the Park on the
1741 night of September the 6th that weren't from Stony Point 2 and he asked you some questions about the Jewel brothers, 3 Les and Russ? 4 And do you know whether or not Les and 5 Russ are from the United States? 6 A: I don't know where they're from. 7 Q: Okay. And during the night of 8 September the 6th when there was the confrontation with 9 the police, do you know whether Les Jewel was one (1) of 10 the people that was taking part in the confrontation? 11 A: Les Jewel? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: No, he wasn't. 14 Q: Do you know where he was that night? 15 A: No, I don't. I believe he was at the 16 built-up area. I may be wrong, but I just don't know. 17 He wasn't there, that's all I know. 18 Q: Right. And he had been there during 19 the 4th, 5th, and 6th? 20 A: Off and on, yes. 21 Q: Yeah, and do you know where Russ 22 Jewel was that night? 23 A: I believe he was in the maintenance 24 shed. 25 Q: Okay, did you ever see him there?
1751 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Did you see him in the 3 maintenance building on the night of September the 6th? 4 A: He might have stopped in just for a 5 second because that's where they were preparing 6 sandwiches and stuff. 7 Q: Okay. And you were asked some 8 questions about Al George? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I understand -- maybe you can 11 confirm that Al George is now dead, is -- 12 A: Yes, he is. 13 Q: -- that right? Yeah, okay. And 14 you've told us that Kevin Thompson was also there. Is 15 that right? 16 A: I don't know no Kevin Thompson. 17 Q: He was the one who went down the road 18 with -- 19 A: No he wasn't -- 20 Q: -- Cecil Bernard George. 21 A: No. 22 Q: He wasn't in -- 23 A: Kevin Thomas was but -- 24 Q: -- front -- 25 A: -- no Thompson.
1761 Q: I'm sorry, Thomas. I got the name 2 wrong. He was -- he was with you in the confrontation as 3 well? 4 A: Not really, he was -- I don't know, 5 he wasn't even part of our group. He was, just like I 6 said there, visiting. He was roaming. I can't tell you 7 exactly where he was before or after the confrontation 8 but other than the deals of going on round and cutting of 9 the wire, that's -- 10 Q: Right. 11 A: -- the only thing that I know of. 12 Q: Okay. Were there other people who 13 were in the Park that were roaming around that weren't 14 part of the group that was fighting with the police? 15 A: Not that I know of. 16 Q: Okay. So there's Les Jewel and Kevin 17 Thomas that you knew were there but you didn't know where 18 they were? 19 A: No, Les Jewel wasn't there. 20 Q: Right. And Mr. Millar asked you some 21 questions about Buck Doxtator and you had said that you 22 had heard of him in 1993, and you had also met him in 23 1993 -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- and I wanted to ask you what had
1771 you heard of Buck Doxtator in 1993? 2 A: Nothing. I just heard of his name. 3 The name was being mentioned, yeah. 4 Q: Okay. Did you know anything about 5 his background or -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: No? And we heard from Marlin Simon 8 that Buck Doxtator was at Wounded Knee. Did you ever 9 hear that or did you hear that from Buck? 10 A: I've never discussed that with him 11 but I wouldn't doubt it if he was. 12 Q: Why do you say that? 13 A: He's down there helping us. I 14 couldn't really say if he was there or not, to tell you 15 the truth. 16 Q: Okay. What -- did you know or did 17 you believe that he had had experiences in previous 18 confrontations? 19 A: At that time, no, I had no knowledge 20 of anything. 21 Q: Did you find that out later? 22 A: Obviously, yes. 23 Q: Yeah. And what did you find out? 24 A: I didn't hear nothing about Wounded 25 Knee, but I heard of another one in New York where they
1781 protested -- I don't know what it was about. It was some 2 election, that's all. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: That's all I know. 5 Q: Okay. And he took part in that? 6 A: That's what I understood, yeah. 7 Q: Yeah. And were there police involved 8 in that also? 9 A: I don't know. 10 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not any 11 of the other outsiders, and by outsiders I mean the 12 people who weren't Stony Pointers, had been in previous 13 situations where there had been confrontations with the 14 police or stand-offs or that kind of thing? 15 A: Not as -- not as a stand-off that I 16 know of, no. 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And I want to take you now to the 22 night of September the 6th. You told us that Cecil 23 Bernard George and other people, including Kevin Thomas, 24 had gone down East Parkway and you had heard some 25 communications from them over the scanner or the radio.
1791 Is that right? 2 A: It wasn't communications from them, 3 no, it wasn't. 4 Q: Okay, you were just listening to the 5 police on the scanner? 6 A: That's what I believe it was. 7 Q: Okay. And you told us that Cecil 8 Bernard George then came back and you had a discussion 9 with him. He told you what he had seen. 10 A: I don't recall him coming -- he 11 didn't direct it to me. I believe it was to everybody 12 that they are coming down the road. 13 Q: Okay. And at the time you first saw 14 the police come down East Parkway, I take it that Cecil 15 Bernard George was already in the Park behind the fence. 16 Is that -- 17 A: Yes, he was. 18 Q: -- right? Okay. And you told Mr. 19 Millar yesterday that there were -- as the police were 20 coming down East Parkway, that -- that there were 21 probably occupiers outside the fence in the sandy parking 22 lot. Do you recall that? 23 A: As they were coming down -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- East Parkway Drive? Yeah, there
1801 probably was. 2 Q: Yeah, yeah. And I'm going to suggest 3 to you that when the police came down East Parkway and 4 through the sandy parking lot, that all of those 5 occupiers who were outside the fence in the sandy parking 6 lot went back into the Park. 7 A: Yes, I believe everybody was behind 8 the fence line. 9 Q: Okay. And you had told Mr. Millar -- 10 he'd asked you some questions about what you saw when you 11 looked at the police and you described their uniforms and 12 that kind of thing and I think you told him that you saw 13 some of the officers with batons, is that right? With 14 stick-style batons? Do you recall? 15 A: Well, they weren't so visible on 16 their initial -- 17 Q: Right. 18 A: -- approach to the fence, but the 19 second approach they -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- they were all beating their 22 shields with their batons. 23 Q: Right, because you had told the SIU 24 in an interview that when the police first came into the 25 parking -- the sandy parking lot area that you hadn't
1811 seen any weapons, you only saw them later. And by that 2 you were talking about batons, so I just wanted to check 3 and see what you actually saw. 4 A: No, I, myself, I did not see any. 5 Q: You didn't see any at all the first 6 time? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And then you told us that the 9 police had come up close to the fence and then they 10 retreated back to the tarmac? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Do you recall that? And do you agree 13 that all they did on that first movement in or close to 14 the fence was come up near the fence and retreat? That 15 there was no weapons out, there was no clubbing, there 16 was no -- nothing like that done by the police? 17 A: No, there wasn't. 18 Q: Okay. And I'm -- I anticipate that 19 we're going to hear some evidence from the police that 20 when they were up by the fence that occupiers started 21 throwing rocks at them? Did you see that? 22 A: Not from where I was, no. I didn't 23 see anybody throwing no rocks. 24 Q: Okay, and throwing sticks and logs at 25 them? Did you see that?
1821 A: Logs? 2 Q: Yeah, big, big sticks I guess is what 3 I'm trying to say. 4 A: No, I didn't -- don't recall seeing 5 anybody. 6 Q: Okay, and throwing firebrands at 7 them, that is, sticks or pieces of wood that were lit. 8 Did you see that? 9 A: No, not at the initial when they 10 first came up, no, I didn't see any. 11 Q: Okay. And then I think you told us 12 that after the police went back to the tarmac that a few 13 people went out to the west side of the fence line and 14 you said when it seemed like there were enough guys 15 there, an attack command was given. 16 A: That's what I heard, yeah. 17 Q: Right. So, I take it that a number 18 of the occupiers had gone into the sandy parking lot? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay, and did you see or hear Stewart 21 George go into the sandy parking lot with a stick yelling 22 about his dog? 23 A: No, I never. 24 Q: Okay. And you said -- and -- and let 25 me -- you said then that when the occupiers went out into
1831 the sandy parking lot that an attack command was given 2 and there was a fight in the parking lot. Do you recall 3 that? 4 A: An attack command by who? 5 Q: That the police and the occupiers met 6 in the sandy parking lot and there was fighting going on. 7 A: Well, you said -- you said something 8 about an attack command? I was just wondering by who? I 9 just want to answer the question, that's all. 10 Q: Oh, I'm sorry, you had said in your 11 evidence to Mr. Millar that you could hear someone who 12 was giving commands? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I think you had told Mr. Millar 15 that what you heard was a command saying, Attack? Or 16 something like that? Did I get that right? 17 A: Yes, on the south of me, yes. 18 Q: Or "punch out" or -- 19 A: Towards that effect, yeah. 20 Q: Yeah, okay. And you told us, I 21 think, that Cecil was -- Cecil Bernard George was out in 22 front yelling at the police? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: So he was one (1) of the people that 25 had gone into the sandy parking lot?
1841 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay, and did you see whether or not 3 he was carrying a stick or club with him? 4 A: I couldn't recall if he was or not. 5 Q: Okay. And when you saw the occupiers 6 out in the sandy parking lot fighting with the police, 7 did you then go out into the sandy parking lot? 8 A: Yes, I was out there. 9 Q: You were out there? Were -- were all 10 of the occupiers who had been behind the fence, did you 11 all go out and fight with the police? 12 A: I don't know if everybody went out. 13 Q: Okay, but you certainly did? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. So, at that time you were 16 fighting with the police, too? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And did you have -- you said 19 that you had a stick? 20 A: A stick, yes. 21 Q: Okay, was that something you had 22 brought with you or something that you found there? 23 A: It's the same one I used to break the 24 cruiser window with. 25 Q: Okay. And you said, I think, at some
1851 point in time you saw or heard someone being taken by the 2 police? 3 A: That's -- yes, I heard somebody, I 4 don't know who, saying they got Slippery. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Meaning Bernard. 7 Q: Okay. Now at the time that you heard 8 that, I take that -- I take it that you were in the 9 middle of fighting with the police yourself? 10 A: Well, I was standing over by -- on my 11 way to the dumpster that was blocking there when I heard 12 that I believe. 13 Q: Okay. And can you give us some idea 14 about how far away and -- and you've told us that you 15 could see Cecil Bernard George and the police. 16 A: At which point? 17 Q: From -- when you heard someone say 18 they got Slippery. Did you look around and see the 19 police with someone? 20 A: No, I just heard that command and -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- and I'd had knew that they had 23 him, yeah. 24 Q: Okay. So when you heard someone say 25 they got Slippery, you looked around, could you see him
1861 or see anything going on in the middle of the fighting? 2 A: Well, I was over a ways from them and 3 all I had was that small crutch -- 4 Q: Right. 5 A: -- and I kind of was more occupied in 6 finding a bigger club. 7 Q: Sure. And you were looking by the 8 dumpster because I think you -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- in another statement you said 11 there was a sign or something there. 12 A: Sign post, yeah. 13 Q: Right. So you were going to get the 14 sign post and use that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yeah. And so you're over by the 17 dumpster and I think you've told us the dumpster was in 18 front of the main gate? Is that right? 19 A: Not the main gate. 20 Q: No, sorry the -- 21 A: The entrance. 22 Q: -- the entrance way. I got my 23 language wrong, sorry about that. So you're by the 24 entrance and you were -- so you were back by the fence at 25 that point in time?
1871 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And I take it that in front of 3 you, that is looking out across the sandy parking lot, 4 would have been a lot of people fighting. 5 A: Well, not at that point. There was - 6 - when I looked across the dumpster all there's a bunch 7 of officers right directly they were actually touching 8 the dumpster. All I could see is their face shields. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And that was where I was focussed on 11 at that time. 12 Q: Okay. So right in front of you were 13 a lot of police and they had their shields on? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And so when you looked around, 16 could you see Slippery or Cecil Bernard George or the 17 police with anyone at all? 18 A: After a while I looked around and 19 that's when I noticed when he was getting beaten. 20 Q: Okay. And so I take it that he was 21 between you and where you saw Cecil Bernard George, there 22 were a number of police between you and Cecil Bernard 23 George? 24 A: I don't know where all the police 25 officers were.
1881 Q: No, I'm sure you didn't. But there 2 were a bunch of people in there, right? 3 A: Well, obviously if they were 4 fighting, yes there was. 5 Q: Yeah. And I take it the police had 6 their shields up? 7 A: I guess so, yes. 8 Q: Yeah. And were you fighting yourself 9 by that time? Did you get your pole? Your metal pole to 10 fight with? 11 A: No. There was -- I slammed it on top 12 of the dumpster and they all took off. 13 Q: Okay. And I think you said in an SIU 14 statement that you were about fifteen (15) or twenty (20) 15 feet away from where Cecil Bernard George was, do you 16 recall that? 17 A: Approximately, yes. 18 Q: Okay. And again there would have 19 been many people -- many people being many police and 20 maybe some occupiers fighting between you and Cecil 21 Bernard George? 22 A: They weren't exactly between us but 23 they were to the northwest of me. That's where. 24 Q: Yeah, yeah. And you then told us I 25 think that you had the view that it would be helpful to
1891 get the bus? 2 A: I heard a command saying yes, get the 3 bus. 4 Q: Okay. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Sorry, I just have too much paper 9 here to keep track of. Do you remember fairly soon after 10 the night of September the 6th, that you met with a 11 lawyer called Delia (phonetic)? 12 She was someone who was -- 13 A: When -- when was this supposed to 14 have taken place? 15 Q: On September the 13th, 1995. So 16 about a week later. 17 A: Could have been about that time, 18 yeah. 19 Q: Yeah. Do you remember that? 20 A: It was at the kitchen -- 21 Q: Right. 22 A: -- in the built-up area, yes. 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: As we were going in, yeah. 25 Q: Sure. And you gave Delia a
1901 statement, I think. Was it tape recorded? Do you 2 remember? 3 A: I don't remember giving her a 4 statement 'cause -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I didn't know who she was at the 7 time. 8 Q: Okay. Did you talk to her and tell 9 her what had happened? 10 A: I don't know if I did or not, but I 11 remember her asking if she wanted us, in here, to be our 12 representative and I said, no. 13 Q: Okay. The reason I'm asking you is - 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 15 minute. Do you want to wait and hear what the reason is 16 before we -- 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I don't know -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's wait 19 until we hear the reason why the question is being asked 20 and then we'll hear what you've got to say. 21 I presume you're concerned about 22 privilege? 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 25 Q: One of the documents that we've been
1911 given by Commission Counsel is a document that looks like 2 it records a meeting that you had with Delia on September 3 the 13th, 1995 and it's a three (3) page document and it 4 sets out -- it looks like your version of events of what 5 happened on September the 6th. 6 And so I just wanted to find out if you 7 did talk to Delia and if you did remember speaking to 8 her. 9 And for the assistance of Commission and 10 Counsel it is Document Number 3000381. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Can we get the 12 Volume Number please? 13 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MS. KAREN JONES: It sounds like it's in 18 Volume XIII. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: In any event, Mr. George, according 22 to this document and I just want to read you what it says 23 and you can tell me if it's right or if -- or if you 24 think it's accurate. 25 You said, according to this document, you
1921 said: 2 "I heard someone yell, get the bus. 3 Then I said, run the fucking bastards 4 over. After I got the sign, I was 5 swinging the sign at about six (6) guys 6 coming at me, get the bus. And then I 7 heard the bus start." 8 Does that sound about right? 9 A: Except for the part about the running 10 over of them. 11 Q: Is that something that you said? 12 A: Well, I actually -- I didn't -- to 13 tell you the truth, Delia, I don't recall talking to her. 14 Q: Okay. Is that the kind of language 15 that you might have used on the night of September the 16 6th? 17 A: Well, to tell you the truth, it was 18 kind of mild, compared to the situation on our part. 19 Q: Sure. 20 A: No matter what kind of language we 21 chose to use. 22 Q: I -- I'm not -- I'm not being 23 critical. I'm just asking you if -- if that's the kind 24 of language you might have used or you probably used that 25 night.
1931 A: We probably would have. 2 Q: Yeah, okay. And you told the 3 Commission yesterday that you were back inside the Park 4 when the bus came out and -- 5 A: Yes -- 6 Q: -- is that right -- 7 A: - it went by me, I believe, yeah. 8 Q: Okay. So if I understand what had 9 happened, you had gone to the area of the dumpster to try 10 get a weapon, you found the metal pole. You had the 11 metal pole and you were banging it on the dumpster. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then you went back inside the 14 Park? Is that right? Or did you go out -- 15 A: Maybe for a brief time until the bus 16 exited. 17 Q: Okay. And when you went back in the 18 Park, was the fight still going on in the sandy parking 19 lot? 20 A: I believe so, yes. 21 Q: Okay. Did -- do you know? 22 A: Yes, it was. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: It would have to be, yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And you told us that you were
1941 in the Park and the bus then started coming out of the 2 Park and I think you told us it rammed the garbage 3 dumpster out of the way? 4 A: It pushed it out of the way, yes. 5 Q: Pushed it out of the way. And you 6 saw your son was driving the bus? 7 A: I realized it at that point, yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And he started driving the bus 9 across the sandy parking lot. Is that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. Now, I think that you told us 12 yesterday that you didn't recall seeing a car coming out 13 of the Park? 14 A: No, I didn't see it coming out. 15 Q: Okay. One (1) of the other documents 16 that we've been provided by the Commission is a document 17 that's a -- a statement that apparently you gave to the 18 SIU on October the 12th, 1995. 19 Do you remember a meeting with Ed Wilson a 20 couple -- about a month later -- a month after in 1995, 21 and giving him a statement in the built-up area? 22 A: I knew I gave them a statement, but I 23 can't remember the exact dates. 24 Q: Okay. And do you remember that a 25 lawyer, Colin Brown was -- was there with you?
1951 A: Yeah, I believe he was, yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And you have, before you, a 3 binder that has a number of documents from it -- 4 A: Yes? 5 Q: -- from the Commission in it? And 6 I'm going to refer to a couple of documents in there and 7 I just want to make sure if you want the chance, that you 8 have to follow along or you can find it and so I'm 9 looking at the October 12th, 1995 -- 10 A: Which tab is that under? 11 Q: -- SIU interview. Do you know -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Tab 16. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And it's document 15 100 -- 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Oh, sorry. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 4444? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4444. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 22 Q: And I'm looking at Page 2 of that 23 interview, right at the bottom of the page and I'm 24 looking at the fourth last line there and it says: 25 "The bus coming through the gate -- we
1961 had blocked it off with a hopper. It 2 was just one (1) hopper -- garbage 3 hopper -- and it went through to cut 4 them back, ease the back of the 5 officers away from Slippery or Bernard. 6 And then the other car went up, a 7 Dodge." 8 Do you remember that? 9 A: Yeah, it -- I believe it went out 10 after the bus exited. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: I'm not sure because I didn't see it 13 actually exit. 14 Q: Okay, so when you refer to the Dodge 15 coming out, that wasn't something that you recalled? 16 A: I didn't see it -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- exit. 19 Q: Okay. And did you see the car 20 following the bus across the sandy parking lot? 21 A: No, it didn't follow no bus. 22 Q: Okay, and did you see the car at all? 23 Out -- either in the sandy parking lot or in the tarmac? 24 A: When it was retreating back inside, 25 yes, I did.
1971 Q: Okay, but until that time you hadn't 2 seen it? 3 A: I don't recall seeing it. 4 Q: Okay. And you told the Commissioner 5 that you followed the bus out and when you thought it 6 went too far you went around to the front of the bus and 7 banged on the hood. Do you recall that? 8 A: When it came to a stop, yes. 9 Q: Okay. And I had wanted to ask you 10 about that because in that same SIU summary that I had 11 referred you to, on Page 3 near the top, you had told the 12 SIU, according to this statement, and I'm starting about 13 six (6) lines down: 14 "The only guys I knew was with me on 15 the south side of the bus was me, 16 Dudley, the man who was short, and 17 Robert and there might have been 18 another fellow there. He'll tell you 19 when the bus went I didn't want to yell 20 that my boy driving the bus because he 21 went down the road too far. I guess he 22 couldn't get it into reverse gear and I 23 didn't want to yell to say either, Come 24 back, because I would have drew too 25 much attention to him, and then when it
1981 was coming back, like it went beyond -- 2 the front of the bus went beyond the 3 officers and we were standing on -- 4 back closer to the gate and as it 5 started coming backwards, like we were 6 heading -- me and Dudley, I believe it 7 was Robert, we were heading towards the 8 officers on the south side of the bus". 9 And I read that and I didn't see anything 10 in that statement that indicated that you were at the 11 front of the bus or banging on the hood of the bus. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: It looked like the bus had already -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- started reversing -- 16 A: I agree it's not in there but that 17 indeed happened. 18 Q: Okay. And you told us as the bus was 19 backing up -- I'm sorry, let me just go back a little 20 bit. When the bus was driving through the sandy parking 21 lot and onto the tarmac, I'm going to suggest to you that 22 the police were already on the road and -- so the bus was 23 driving into the police on the road. 24 Do you remember that? 25 A: What about the ones laying in the
1991 ditch. 2 Q: Well, didn't they lay in the ditch 3 because the -- the bus was driving into them? 4 A: Depends on how far you're talking 5 down the road. 6 Q: Okay. If you -- where -- where did 7 you see the police? 8 A: I think I indicated it as Number 8. 9 Q: Okay. So I'm going to suggest to you 10 that the police were already on the tarmac and moving 11 towards -- moving down East Parkway Drive, when -- 12 A: The ones I seen, they moved out as 13 the bus progressed forward. 14 Q: Right. And so by the time the bus 15 was coming towards them they were already out on the 16 road? Do you agree with that? 17 A: Oh when the bus left they were 18 already on the road? 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: No, they weren't. 21 Q: Okay. When the bus was coming 22 towards the officers, were they back on the road at that 23 point in time? 24 A: They went as far as the tarmac on the 25 side I was on, yes.
2001 Q: Right. And then the bus was driving 2 towards them and they were jumping off the road? Do you 3 agree with that? 4 A: No, they were -- it's the time when 5 they stopped where they were in the bus they had to be at 6 least five (5) or six (6) feet away from the bus, yeah. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: From the side. 9 Q: Okay. And you said they were lying 10 on the road, or lying in the ditch? 11 A: Some of them were, yeah. 12 Q: Okay. Was that because they had 13 fallen or jumped trying to get away from the bus? Did 14 you see that? 15 A: To me it looked like they tripped 16 over each other. 17 Q: Right, trying to get away from the 18 bus? 19 A: No, just tripping. Anybody could get 20 away from a bus that's barely moving. 21 Q: Okay. And were all the police either 22 beside or in front of the bus that you saw? 23 A: I don't think all of them were. 24 Q: Okay. Where do you think the other 25 police were? Did you see or do you know?
2011 A: It was a high concentration of them 2 beating on Slippery at that time. 3 Q: And where was that? 4 A: Number 5. 5 Q: Okay. So when the police were -- 6 just so I understand, are you saying then that when the 7 bus was out on the tarmac, there were still officers that 8 were in the sandy parking lot? 9 A: I believe so, yeah. 10 Q: Okay. 'Cause I anticipate that we're 11 going to hear evidence that by the time the officers 12 started down the road in a group, Mr. Cecil Bernard 13 George was already in the paddy wagon and he was ahead of 14 them on East Parkway. Is that possible? 15 A: Well, as I testified before, my 16 concentration was on the bus where my son was driving, 17 and I really didn't see or -- what happened on the other 18 side of the bus other than when Slippery was being 19 beaten. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Where the other officers were, I have 22 no idea. 23 Q: Okay. So, but just so I'm clear 24 then, are you sure that when the bus was out in the 25 tarmac, that Mr. Cecil Bernard George and police officers
2021 were still in the sandy parking lot? 2 A: That's my -- I still believe that 3 they were. I had reason to believe they were, yeah. 4 Q: Okay. Did you see them or do you 5 just think that? 6 A: No, I couldn't see through, I was on 7 the side of the bus. I couldn't see through the bus. 8 Q: You couldn't see who -- yeah, okay. 9 A: My view was obstructed by the bus. 10 Q: Right, okay. And I think in fact, 11 you told the SIU that you never saw Cecil Bernard George 12 after he was taken by the police again. 13 A: No, I never. 14 Q: Right. And you said as the bus was 15 backing up that you saw a muzzle flash from the south 16 side of the bus, is that right? On the south side -- 17 A: Number 8 -- 18 Q: -- of the bus? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Right, okay. And you then heard 21 shots on the north side of the bus, is that right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And when you heard that, did 24 you see whether or not there was a car beside the bus? 25 Or in front of it?
2031 A: No, I didn't. 2 Q: You didn't see that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. And was that because the bus 5 was blocking your view? 6 A: At that time I believe it was, yeah. 7 Q: And you also told us I think 8 yesterday, that you heard hundreds of shots? 9 A: I'd have to say a hundred (100), yes. 10 Q: Okay. And I anticipate the evidence 11 is going to be that the police fired twenty-four (24) 12 times. And I'm just going to suggest to you that when 13 you're in that kind of a situation it's hard to tell. 14 A: I know where one (1) came from. 15 Q: Sure. 16 A: That's all I could testify to, just 17 one (1). 18 Q: That's right, okay. And you -- you 19 talked a little bit about Dudley being -- when Dudley was 20 shot. And I think you said yesterday that Dudley spun 21 around and he yelled, Robert, I think I'm hit. And then 22 he fell against you. 23 A: Well, he fell backwards against me 24 and then he proceeded to turn around and he went down. 25 Q: Okay. And I wanted to ask you about
2041 that too, because I understand that on October 15th, 2 1995, that you met with the SIU again and there were a 3 number of the occupiers there and the SIU was asking you 4 to mark where you saw Dudley when he was shot. 5 Do you recall doing that with the SIU? 6 A: Yeah. It wouldn't be any different 7 any other time. 8 Q: Sure. And for the assistance of 9 counsel this is Document Number 1002531. And I'm not 10 sure where it is in your binder. But you'll see 11 hopefully if there's an index, you'll see that there's a 12 document called The Anticipated Evidence of Roderick 13 George dated October 15th, 1995. And I'll just wait for 14 a sec while you find it. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 16 document in the binder? Mr. Millar, I can't see it. 17 1002531? Is that what you said, Ms. Jones? 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1002531. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's not in the 21 binder. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: Okay. Let me -- let me just read you 25 the preamble to the statement and I'll see if I can help
2051 you recall it and it says, and this is -- starts off with 2 a preamble by Jim Kennedy. It says: 3 "Today is the 15th of October 1995, 4 we're presently standing in the sandy 5 parking lot bordering the Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park; the scene of where the 7 confrontation took place between the 8 Ontario Provincial Police and First 9 Nations people on the 6th of September. 10 Present during this interview is Colin 11 Brown, attorney acting on behalf of the 12 Stony Point people, investigators Jim 13 Kennedy and Ed Wilson of the Special 14 Investigations Unit. This interview is 15 also being simultaneously filmed by 16 Identification Officer Don Millar of 17 the SIU and Ked Harper (phonetic) of 18 the First Nations people." 19 Do you recall being out on the sandy 20 parking lot in October with that group of people? 21 A: I don't recall but I remember -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- yeah, I guess I could verify that 24 fact, kind of thing, yeah. 25 Q: Okay. Now according to this summary
2061 of anticipated evidence, what Mr. Kennedy says is: 2 "Roderick George indicates that he did 3 not see Dudley George go down. The 4 last thing he saw of Dudley George 5 being carried by several other people." 6 Do you recall saying that to the SIU that 7 you did not see Dudley George go down? 8 A: I don't recall saying that, but I did 9 -- I did -- I could very well verify that I did see him 10 go down, yeah. But at that time I said I didn't but in 11 fact I did, yeah. 12 Q: Okay. Do you agree with me that in 13 October of 1995, your recollection of the events was 14 likely to be clearer and more accurate than it is now, 15 almost ten (10) years later? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Yeah? Okay. And you told Mr. Wilson 18 that you saw Dudley George being carried by a number of 19 people. Do you know who was -- who was carrying him? 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: Okay. And I then wanted to -- I'm 22 sorry? Mr. Commissioner, I'm sorry, I'm not paying 23 attention to you, is this a good time for a break? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I was 25 wondering how much longer --
2071 MS. KAREN JONES: I have about, I would 2 think half an hour at the most left. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Half an 4 hour? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 7 should take a break then. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 10 fifteen (15) minute break. 11 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 12 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 3:33 p.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 3:47 p.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: Sorry, Mr. George, I know these are 22 long days. I then wanted to take you to when you were 23 back in the Park and the bus was back in the Park and you 24 said that you saw your son, Nick, get off the bus? Yeah? 25 And he was walking back to the store?
2081 A: No, he just got out of the bus and he 2 was -- just kind of stood there until he walked into the 3 light, yeah. 4 Q: Okay, and you said that you noticed a 5 blood spot on his upper right back. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you looked on his back and you 8 pulled up his shirt, I take it? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you saw on his right side -- you 11 said there was a hole and you assumed he was shot? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I understand that you later 14 learned that he hadn't been shot and that what happened 15 was he had glass -- 16 A: Yes, it was later extracted out, 17 yeah. 18 Q: Yeah. And you said on his left side 19 that there was a graze and that graze wasn't bleeding? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yeah. Okay. And you told the 22 Commissioner yesterday that after you took Nick back to 23 the built-up area that you then stayed down at the Base? 24 A: Say that again, please? 25 Q: After -- after you took Nick back to
2091 the built-up area that you then stayed down at the Base, 2 you didn't go back into the Park? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Right? And you also told the 5 Commissioner that you told people after you found out 6 that Dudley George was dead to go down to the Park and 7 burn two (2) buildings? 8 A: Yes it was -- 9 Q: Do you recall that? 10 A: -- person I believe it was my 11 brother, Stewart, who informed me that at that point 12 Dudley had passed away, yes. 13 Q: Okay. Now, we've heard from a number 14 of other witnesses that they were in the Park and they 15 were in the Park when they found out that Dudley had been 16 shot -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- or, sorry, that Dudley was dead 19 and that they decided then to burn down the store and 20 they did it with gas and other things and I'm going to 21 suggest that probably the burning happened because the 22 people who were in the Park at the time decided to do 23 that, not because of anything you did -- 24 A: That may be so, but I did say that. 25 Q: Sure. And you also told the
2101 Commissioner yesterday, that you told people to vacate 2 the Park and they did. 3 A: I've also said that, yes. 4 Q: Yeah. And we heard from Marlin Simon 5 on September the 30th that he and many people stayed in 6 the Park until early in the morning and he said that 7 people were going back and forth during the night. And 8 many people were in the Park out on the road looking at 9 the area and casings. 10 And I'm going to suggest to you that 11 people didn't vacate the Park. 12 A: Oh, that may be so again, but I 13 remember what I said. I made that statement. 14 Q: Okay. Okay. And I just wanted to 15 clarify a few things, I'm almost done, Mr. George, you'll 16 be happy to know that. You told us that the next day 17 that is September the 7th, that you -- a number of people 18 went from the Base down to the Park on the bus? 19 Do you remember that? 20 A: Yeah, I believe it was the next day, 21 yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And that was the same bus that 23 had been used on the night of September the 6th. 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And did you or did other people, do
2111 you know, did you have to clean up the bus before -- 2 A: No, no. 3 Q: -- all the people went on it? 4 A: No. It was as is. 5 Q: Okay. Because I understand that 6 there would have been broken glass in a number of, I 7 think -- at least a bunch of broken glass in the bus? 8 A: Yeah obviously, yeah. 9 Q: Yeah. And did anyone clean up that 10 broken glass so it would be safe for people -- 11 A: It was probably swept on the floor so 12 you wouldn't sit on it. 13 Q: Pardon me? 14 A: It was probably brushed on floor so 15 you don't sit on it. 16 Q: Sure. And you told -- you said that 17 you found three (3) bullets in the sandy parking lot? 18 A: At a later date. I'm -- I'm not sure 19 what day it was. 20 Q: Okay. Well, I'm going to suggest to 21 you that it was almost a year later, that is August the 22 11th, 1996, that those three (3) -- that you found those 23 three (3) bullets? 24 A: It could have been. It was some 25 times after.
2121 Q: Okay. And do you recall that you 2 were there with -- on August the 11th, 1996, or I'm going 3 to suggest to you that's the right date, with Elijah 4 Layton and Pierre George and Buck Doxtator? 5 A: On which day? 6 Q: On August the 11th, 1996, when you 7 found the three (3) bullets in the sandy parking lot? 8 A: I'm not sure I knew -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I'm not sure who was there. 11 Q: Okay. I just want to see if I can 12 refresh your memory because I want to make sure when you 13 say you found three (3) bullets and there's some 14 documents that refer to that and I just want to make sure 15 that we're talking about the same event. So if you could 16 wait just for a sec. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: There's a document that we've been 21 provided by the Commission that says Special 22 Investigations Unit Followup Report. For the assistance 23 of counsel, it is Document Number 1001782. And it's a 24 document that was submitted by Jim Kennedy, the SIU 25 Investigator.
2131 And he says in that document and I'm just 2 going to read it to you and see if that refreshes your 3 memory or if you can tell us whether this is the same 4 three (3) bullets that you were talking about. He says 5 that: 6 "8:50 p.m. on the 11th of August, 1996, 7 Sunday, Investigator Kennedy received a 8 phone call from Roderick Judas George 9 stating that one of the peacekeepers, 10 Layton Elijah, while preparing and 11 making a new cedar circle around the 12 ceremonial site of Dudley George's 13 monument, found some bullets or bullet 14 casings. He wasn't sure which but he 15 felt this was evidence they wanted to 16 turn over these articles to the Special 17 Investigations Unit." 18 And what it says a little bit further down 19 the road is that: 20 "Layton Elijah turned over three (3) 21 casings, silver in colour." 22 And it then goes on to describe them and 23 they were three (3) silver -- three (3) casings from 24 38's. And he says: 25 "Layton Elijah stated he found the
2141 casings at seven o'clock p.m. on the 2 11th of August while cleaning up the 3 area around Dudley George's memorial 4 site. At the time of finding these 5 casings he was with another person by 6 the name of Buck Doxtator and Pierre 7 George, Dudley George's brother. 8 Apparently Buck Doxtator slapped him a 9 skittle..." 10 And I think by that he means a mosquito, 11 "...on his face and realized he had 12 lost his silver earring. This earring 13 was that of a turtle. They then 14 started to look for the earring and 15 found, first one (1) shell casing and 16 then two (2) more shell casings about 17 one (1) to two (2) feet away from the 18 north-west post that delineated the 19 rectangle where Dudley George's 20 memorial site is". 21 Does that sound right? 22 A: That could be true, yes. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Is that -- is that the three (3)
2151 silver casings? 2 A: I believe so, yes. 3 Q: Okay. And Mr. Millar had asked you a 4 question about the grassy knoll or the sand pile out 5 there. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I think the question had been 8 that you had said that -- and by the sand pile, if we 9 look at the exhibit behind you, there's a -- a pile right 10 beside, to the left of the Number 9. 11 A: This one. 12 Q: Right. And I think you said that 13 hadn't been there on the night of September the 6th? 14 A: No, it wasn't. 15 Q: Okay. And that -- and Mr. Millar had 16 suggested to you that by the time that Stan Thompson got 17 to the Park, which was September 19th, or around that 18 time, he had drawn it on his diagram. 19 And I just wanted to suggest to you what - 20 - how that was created. Because you had said in a 21 statement to the SIU that: 22 "The grassy knoll was created for our 23 guys to put up a checkpoint, like the 24 danger of another advancement." 25 And I'm --
2161 A: It -- it could have. 2 Q: Okay. And so can you help us with 3 was -- 4 A: I -- I really don't know where it 5 came from, what it could have been there, because when 6 they put up that -- had the fire and another road block 7 in the sandy parking lot area, I was not there. 8 Q: Okay. And so that sandy mound could 9 have been created about that time to assist you in 10 blocking off the area, but you don't know? 11 A: Well, I'm not sure, but I kind of 12 thought in my own mind that it was -- appeared later, 13 later time. 14 Q: Later in time -- 15 A: I always thought it was around the 16 same time they put up the new street light, which time 17 that was I don't know. 18 Q: Right. And that -- that might well 19 have been a year later. 20 A: I don't know 'cause -- 21 Q: You don't know. Okay, you can't help 22 us. 23 And I wanted to ask you just a couple of 24 questions about events in the Camp or on the Base after 25 September the 6th of 1995, because you had told Mr.
2171 Millar, early on yesterday, that there was a split in the 2 Camp and he had asked you about that and you said it 3 happened after the shooting. 4 And you had said, I think, that it 5 involved the Mannings -- 6 A: Yes, they -- 7 Q: Rose Manning -- 8 A: -- they packed up and left. 9 Q: Okay. And I understand that in or 10 about 1998, a situation had happened where the Women's 11 Group in the Camp, that is the is the group that was led 12 by your wife Gina George, had decided that a nun who was 13 at the Base, Carolyn Hayle (phonetic) -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- needed to be evicted? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you recall that? And on the date 18 that Carolyn Hayle was being evicted, a situation had 19 arisen between the people that were trying to get her out 20 and Murray Manning. 21 Were you there at that time or do you 22 recall that? 23 A: Not at that specific -- like when 24 that happened, but I was in -- in and around. 25 Q: And I understand that Murray Manning
2181 had a gun -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- at the time? And that at or about 4 that time, Murray Manning and other people from his 5 family barricaded themselves up in one (1) of the -- 6 A: Yes, they did. 7 Q: Right. And that they were evicted 8 after a few days? Is that right? 9 A: They were -- pardon? 10 Q: They were evicted or they left after 11 a few days? 12 A: They left the next day after, yeah. 13 Q: Okay. And I further understand that 14 after they left a sawed-off shotgun and Molotov cocktails 15 were found in the barracks where they were staying? 16 A: I believe so, yeah. 17 Q: Okay. And was that the time when 18 Rose Manning left the Park? Or was -- or was she 19 involved in that in any way? 20 A: She was in -- she was living in 21 Building 45 at the time. 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: That's where I understand where she 24 was that whole time of that incident. 25 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not
2191 Rose Manning left as a result of that incident or do you 2 know why she left? 3 A: I believe that's why. 4 Q: That was the split that you were 5 talking about? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And there's another document 8 in the materials provided by the Commission that 9 indicates that you called the SIU on May the 24th, 1996, 10 so that would have been the next spring, and you told the 11 investigator that Tom Bressette was trying to get the 12 peacekeepers off the Army Camp. 13 Do you recall making that kind of a call? 14 A: Yes, I heard mention of it, yes. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Referred to them as the Outsiders, 17 yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And can you tell us after 19 September 6th, 1995, and into 1996, what, if any, 20 communications you had or others in your group had that 21 you knew of with Tom Bressette or the Kettle Point and 22 Stoney Point Band Council? 23 A: What contact -- 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: -- I had with them?
2201 Q: Yeah. 2 A: Well, I can't speak about anybody 3 else, but -- 4 Q: Sure. 5 A: -- as far as I was concerned, I'd 6 have to say, basically none. 7 Q: Okay. And you were asked some 8 questions about -- by Mr. Millar about your views about 9 what had happened at Ipperwash and what if -- what you 10 believed had caused the situation and I'm wondering if -- 11 it seemed to me that a couple of things, based on what 12 you've said, might have changed. 13 And one (1) is, you told us that your view 14 now about the unceded land was that it should be -- it -- 15 or that it would be dealt with with the Federal 16 Government, I take it, through negotiations? 17 A: Can you give me more -- 18 Q: Okay, let me -- 19 A: -- I don't know what you're exactly 20 asking here. 21 Q: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just hold on 23 for a second. 24 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I believe the only 25 reference that the witness made to the Federal Government
2211 was when they were speaking about the cottages at the 2 northeast corner up near Port Franks. 3 I think he said that as far as the Camp is 4 concerned, they've occupied that and that the Park should 5 be turned over and when asked about the cottages, that's 6 when he said that's up to the Federal Government; that's 7 my recollection of the evidence. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What is the 9 question now, Ms. Jones? I think that's reasonably 10 accurate -- 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 13 Q: No, no, I -- I agree with that and -- 14 and I took from that and maybe I took from it 15 incorrectly, Mr. George, that your view now was in terms 16 of land that you believed or believe belongs to Stony 17 Point, that the way to get that land or resolve that 18 claim is through the Federal Government or negotiating 19 with the Federal Government. Is that right? 20 A: If they're going to listen to us, I 21 guess. 22 Q: Okay. And in hindsight, do you agree 23 with me that it would have been helpful in the situation 24 had there been open communication or at least some 25 communication between the occupiers and the police?
2221 A: I can't guarantee that that would 2 have taken place or not. 3 Q: No, I'm not saying you can guarantee 4 if it would take place, I'm just saying do you agree it 5 would have been helpful? 6 A: I don't know, I really can't answer 7 that. 8 Q: Okay. Because that would be 9 something -- 10 A: We weren't really there to talk to no 11 police, actually. 12 Q: I know you weren't. I'm just 13 wondering if, in hindsight, when you think about it -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think -- 15 sorry -- I think you asked that question earlier -- 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and I 18 think you got an answer earlier. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, and he -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that what 21 you were going to say, Mr. Rosenthal? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I was going to 23 object. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: She did get the
2231 answer and he indicated that he didn't know what the 2 police would do. He thought they might have done exactly 3 the same thing. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 Ms. Jones has stopped. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And that should be 7 ended. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones 9 has stopped. Thank you very much. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: I have stopped. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much, Ms. Jones. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you very much, 14 Mr. Commissioner. I apologize for being longer than I 15 thought I would be. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You weren't. 17 You were pretty close to your estimate. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much. It's now 4:05 and I suppose up next is Mr. 21 Downard on behalf of Mr. Harris. We may not complete 22 your examination, but I think we should start it. 23 We're going to stop at 4:30. Is that all 24 right? Unless you're almost finished in which case we're 25 prepared to go a little longer. It'll be your call,
2241 whether we stay a little longer or end at 4:30. 2 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thank you, sir. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 7 Q: Sir, my name's Peter Downard and I 8 appear for the former Ontario Premier, Mike Harris, and I 9 just want to ask you questions about a few different 10 areas that you've spoken to in your evidence. 11 Now, at the outset of Mr. Millar's 12 questioning of you, he led your evidence that you're 13 today still recognized as a, what he called a quote, 14 principle person, at Stony Point, right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I -- I take it that the notion of 17 a principle person derives from the traditional notion of 18 a principle man in First Nations tradition, right? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And, for example, in the Treaty 21 period, they would be principle men of First Nations 22 group who would sign treaties, right? 23 A: No. A treaty is a foreign word to 24 our People. 25 Q: Fine. If there was a cession of
2251 territory in -- in concluding a treaty, it would be often 2 in history, the principle men of the First Nations people 3 who would be involved in dealing with that? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And so I take it that, coming back to 6 today, being a principle person for your people involves 7 you being in a sort of leadership role? 8 A: Yeah, a little bit, yeah. 9 Q: And you -- you say "a little bit". 10 Does that role involve you, for example, standing up for 11 your community, for the principles your community is 12 committed to? 13 A: Whatever the community's wishes are. 14 Q: And so you understand that as a 15 principle person of your community, and occupying that 16 role, you're obliged to uphold the wishes of your 17 community? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And stand for the fundamental things 20 that your community stands for? That the people who -- 21 who have selected you as principle person stand for, 22 right? 23 A: Well, in this day and age, yeah, it 24 would be more of a spokesman for the people, yes. 25 Q: Now I want to step back to your
2261 involvement with the occupation at the former Army Camp 2 lands, back in 1993, and as I recall your evidence, it 3 was that in the summer of 1993, you visited people on the 4 rifle ranges as often as you could, could be two (2) or 5 three (3) times a week or maybe more. Is that fair? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And with respect to the incident of 8 the helicopter shooting, I understood that you said to 9 Mr. Millar, and I'll say the alleged helicopter shooting 10 because it's often referred to as that. 11 With -- with respect to that alleged 12 incident I understood that you told Mr. Millar that you 13 were not at the Army Camp at the alleged time of the 14 alleged incident and that what you knew about it was what 15 you read in the newspaper or got from the other media, 16 right? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: What I would like to -- to ask you 19 though is whether to your knowledge after the time at 20 which this incident was alleged to have occurred, this 21 helicopter shooting, alleged shooting, was ever a topic 22 of discussion or conversation even, you know, informal 23 casual conversation within the Army Camp when you were 24 visiting? 25 A: Well probably obviously must have
2271 been. 2 Q: Do you -- do you recall that? 3 A: I think it was, like to me I was more 4 concerned about it after the OPP conducted a search after 5 that. 6 Q: Okay. And what was the response 7 within the occupying community? To the extent that you 8 could perceive one (1), to the extent you observed one 9 (1)? What was the response in the occupying community to 10 this allegation of a helicopter being shot? 11 A: Calling the OPPs liars because it -- 12 it was an untrue fact at the point at that time, yeah. 13 Q: That -- that's what you were being 14 told, that it was untrue? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Was there any attempt within the 17 community to investigate the allegation that you're aware 18 of? 19 A: At the time no. There was none -- 20 not by the People but as you know like -- I later heard 21 that the Scott guy did something. He went somewhere to 22 look at the helicopter and I don't know nothing about it. 23 That's all that I know. I've heard at some point in 24 time, that's it. 25 Q: Was there any message conveyed to the
2281 community at the time about -- 2 A: Not that I know. 3 Q: Not that you know of? 4 A: No. Saying there might have been but 5 I don't know. 6 Q: Sorry, there might have been what? 7 A: There might have been messages but 8 I'm not aware of any. 9 Q: Now you -- you told us briefly in 10 your evidence with Mr. Millar during this period about a 11 -- a meeting in 1993 or 1994, with Carl George when there 12 was discussion with the military about an access point 13 along Outer Drive? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what was happening there as I 16 understood it was the -- or at least your understanding 17 was that people were coming in who were not part of the 18 group, meaning the occupying group? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And there was a concern on -- on your 21 part I suppose, that the -- or as I understand that they 22 were bringing in stolen cars and the occupying group was 23 getting the blame for it? 24 A: That was a concern, yes and that's 25 what was happening.
2291 Q: And -- and so then you dug up the 2 area with a back-hoe and you blocked it off so that point 3 of access would not be available? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, were these other people who were 6 coming in, other First Nations people? 7 A: I don't know. I never seen them but 8 I knew that was -- in fact there was people coming in, 9 yeah. 10 Q: Now, I would like to come back to the 11 points that have been raised with you before about Carl 12 George being the Chief and Carl George stopping being the 13 Chief. 14 And you said that there was the meeting at 15 which you and Glenn George and Marlin Simon went down to 16 Grand Bend and you spoke to the police officer Charlie 17 Bouman, right? 18 A: I think that's what his name was, 19 yeah. 20 Q: And you believed it was about the 21 status of Carl George as Chief? 22 A: Yeah, I think that was the OPP's 23 concern as to why. 24 Q: Okay. Do you recall what was said to 25 Mr. Bouman at that meeting about Carl George?
2301 A: No, just throwing out questions as to 2 why and how come and actually, I didn't know. I didn't 3 know why. 4 Q: Did anyone else at the meeting say 5 why? 6 A: No, I don't think any of us could 7 have spoke for him -- for -- meaning Carl, but at that 8 point it would have just been rumour to us. 9 Q: Well, okay. What was said to the 10 police officer, Bouman, on this occasion to your 11 recollection? 12 A: As to why Carl stepped down? 13 Q: Right. 14 A: That's hard, I can't remember -- 15 something about -- he was kind of dissatisfied with him 16 being -- supposedly being in charged -- in charge, like, 17 he was the driver and he was told that he did not carry 18 all the power to make decisions without community 19 consent. It was along that line. 20 Q: Do you recall anything else about 21 what Mr. -- or Officer Bouman was saying -- was told, 22 rather? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Now then, as -- as I understand it, 25 after Carl George stops being the Chief, there is no new
2311 Chief, right? 2 A: No, still ain't. 3 Q: Okay. And after Carl George stops 4 being the Chief, what happens to the Council that you 5 described your being a member of -- 6 A: It dissolved. 7 Q: And what replaces it is essentially 8 the -- the group of principle men that you have described 9 previously? 10 A: Eventually it did evolve into that, 11 yes. 12 Q: About how long did that process of 13 evolution take? 14 A: I'm not sure. 15 Q: Would it be within a year? 16 A: Oh, yes. 17 Q: Now, I -- I want to turn to the entry 18 into the built-up area in late July of 1995 and I 19 understand your evidence to be that you were not there 20 that day? 21 A: No, I wasn't. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Mr. Millar points out to me that --
2321 that you were not there initially, but you came later 2 that day? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Right. And are you aware that there 5 was at least an allegation that on that day, when the 6 occupation of the built-up area commenced, a -- a school 7 bus was driven through drill hall doors in the Army Camp? 8 A: I don't think I heard about that 9 until maybe the next day or so. 10 Q: You heard about that the next day or 11 so? 12 A: Right. Somewheres around there, yes 13 I did, but I didn't -- I don't think I heard of it 14 exactly the same day. 15 Q: If you'll just bear with me for a 16 moment, sir. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Now, sir, we've been provided with an 21 occurrence report from the police by the Commission. 22 It's -- I believe it's Tab 1 in -- in your book. It's 23 document 1012161 and at the seventh page under the tab -- 24 at the seventh page under the tab there is a general 25 occurrence report and you'll -- do you see that?
2331 It refers to: 2 "July 29, 1995 at about 1:45 p.m. a 3 yellow school bus with twenty (20) or 4 so women and children on it broke into 5 the built-up area of CFB Ipperwash and 6 smashed into the doors of a supply 7 building." 8 Do you see that? 9 A: On the seventh page? 10 Q: On the seventh page, yes. It's my 11 seventh page, I hope it's yours. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sixth. 13 MR. PETER DOWNARD: It may be your sixth 14 page, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 16 numbering of the page is confusing. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's no numbers on 18 them. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 21 Q: It -- the document I'm referring to 22 has the date, 21 December '95 in the upper right corner. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It says on the upper 24 left corner -- pardon me, in the upper left corner 25 0011284. It's a small...
2341 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's four 2 (4) or five (5) documents in I found it. 3 THE WITNESS: Five (5), six (6), seven 4 (7). 0013061? 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 7 Q: No. 0011284. 8 A: Which page is that one on? That's 9 what's on my set of page. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: My sixth (6th) page. 14 Q: Okay, you want to take a minute to -- 15 to read the documents? I'm just going to ask a couple of 16 things about it and it might help if you just take a 17 moment to read it. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Yes, I'm aware of that. 22 Q: So you'll see that there's a -- the 23 reference in -- in the first double-spaced block 24 capitals, Paragraph 2, the bus smashing through the doors 25 of the supply building?
2351 A: Okay. 2 Q: And that's something that you recall 3 being told about the next day? 4 A: The next day or whenever. I -- I was 5 told about it. 6 Q: Okay, and then it goes on to refer to 7 the bus, after it smashed through the doors of the supply 8 building, backing into a DND Jeep and pushing it fifty 9 (50) feet. 10 Were you told about that, at or about the 11 -- the time that -- 12 A: Yes, I believe so, yeah. 13 Q: I beg your pardon? 14 A: Yes, I was told about that. 15 Q: Thank you. And then you'll see it 16 goes on to say that: 17 "the driver was taken into custody by 18 two (2) MPs but then they were 19 overpowered by several of the native 20 people and the driver escaped." 21 Did you hear that within the period after 22 this happened? 23 A: I believe so, yeah. 24 Q: Okay. Now, what was the response 25 within the occupying community to this having been done?
2361 A: I don't know, I wasn't there. 2 Q: Well, you were there later that -- 3 later that day on the -- the 29th, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And at this time, at the end 6 of July 1995, you were a principle man of the community, 7 right? 8 A: Supposed to be, yes. 9 Q: Yes, right. Well, are you aware 10 whether there was any encouragement within the Stony folk 11 community of the person who had smashed the bus in the 12 drill hall to turn himself over to the police? 13 A: Are you asking my opinion or the 14 community's -- 15 Q: I'm not asking -- 16 A: -- opinion? 17 Q: -- for your opinion. I'm asking for 18 your recollection. Was there anything -- was there 19 anything done in the -- in the community to encourage 20 whoever had done this to turn himself over to the police? 21 A: Not that I recall, no. 22 Q: Okay. Was there any message conveyed 23 within the -- the Stony Point community, to your 24 recollection, about whether such behaviour would be 25 tolerated?
2371 A: I don't know if there was or not. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now, it's -- what's already been 6 covered with you, is that by -- certainly by 1993, if not 7 earlier, it was clear that members of the occupying group 8 at the former Army Camp didn't want the Kettle and Stony 9 Point Bands speaking for them in negotiations for the 10 return of the lands; right? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And we -- we heard earlier in this 13 Inquiry, and this has been raised with you, historical 14 evidence that in 1994 the Department of National Defence 15 finally agreed to return the Army Camp lands to the First 16 Nations' people. 17 You -- I think you believe you -- you -- 18 pardon me, I think I believe you said you heard that on 19 the radio or something like that? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 21 Mr. Henderson? 22 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes, 23 Commissioner, in the interest of some accuracy, the 1994 24 agreement, such as it was, was for an environmental 25 assessment. There had been several previous agreements,
2381 for example, in 1981, 1985, 1942, for the return of the 2 lands. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 7 could say "another agreement." 8 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, in the interest 9 of accuracy, I'm going to move on. 10 11 (LAUGHTER) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 14 Q: I take it that your evidence is that 15 when the built-up area was taken over by the occupying 16 group, a very, very large proportion of the buildings had 17 been decommissioned. Right? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: All right. And at that time, did you 20 understand that all of those buildings were being de- 21 commissioned because the Military intended to leave the 22 Base sooner or later? 23 A: Well, I didn't know that they were 24 actually -- they were de-commissioning, but I later found 25 out that yes, they were indeed, 90 percent de-
2391 commissioned. 2 Q: Okay. And about when did you find 3 that out? 4 A: I don't know, it would be some time 5 after we were in the built-up area. 6 Q: A relatively short time, a matter of 7 weeks? 8 A: It would have to be weeks. 9 Q: All right, and did you acquire an 10 understanding as to why all of those buildings were being 11 de-commissioned? 12 A: Yeah, because they were going to -- 13 they closed the Base down. 14 Q: And they were ultimately -- well, 15 pardon me, they were planning to close the Base down 16 completely? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. All right. And I'd like to 19 ask you a -- a few things about the relative positions of 20 the occupying group at the former Army Camp and the 21 Kettle and Stony Point Band. 22 And as I understand it, it was your 23 position in 1995 and -- and I'm going to ask you to say - 24 - and I when I say, "your position," I mean the group 25 that the -- the position of the occupying group in the
2401 Army Camp. Okay? 2 And was it the case that in 1995 it was 3 the occupying group's position that it should negotiate 4 with the Federal Government for the return of the Stony 5 Point lands? 6 A: Should negotiate with who? 7 Q: The Federal Government. 8 A: The occupiers? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: That was even before 1995. 11 Q: Sure. It was -- that was the 12 position of the occupiers before 1995 and it remained the 13 position in 1995; right? 14 A: And it still stands today. 15 Q: Right. And was it the position of 16 the occupying group that the Kettle and Stony Point Band 17 should not participate in negotiations with the Federal 18 Government for the return of those Stony Point lands? 19 A: You're asking me if it's -- the 20 Kettle and Stony Point Band should not be negotiating for 21 that? 22 Q: What -- what I'm asking you about is 23 -- and I'll put a time frame on it because we've -- we've 24 been talking about 1995. 25 In 1995, was it the position of the
2411 occupying group that the only First Nations' group that 2 should be negotiating with the Federal Government for the 3 return of the Stony Point lands was the occupying group? 4 A: Well, I can't speak for the group in 5 its entirety but, yes, that is my view. 6 Q: And in 1995 was that a view that was 7 shared by numerous other members of the occupying group? 8 A: Instead of federal nego -- government 9 negotiating with the Stony Point people, the occupiers, 10 yes. 11 Q: And -- and not with the Kettle and 12 Stony Point Band? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And I take it then that what that 15 means, as part of that position, is that if those 16 negotiations that you wanted were to succeed, the lands 17 should be returned to the occupying group and not to the 18 Kettle and Stony Point Bands. 19 A: The Stony Point Band. 20 COMMISSION SIDNEY LINDEN: It is 4:30 21 now, do you want to continue? 22 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yeah, I'll -- what I 23 would like to do is just clarify one point. I've -- 24 COMMISSION SIDNEY LINDEN: And then 25 you're done?
2421 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- received a message 2 and I -- 3 COMMISSION SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 6 Q: When you say it should be returned to 7 the Stony Point Band, I take it that means that the land 8 should be returned to the occupying group and not to the 9 Kettle and Stony Point Band? 10 A: No, to the Stony Point people. The 11 one who rightfully owns it. 12 Q: And -- and that means not the Kettle 13 and Stony Point Band under the Indian Act? 14 A: Yes. Yeah, that's correct because it 15 is a separate entity. 16 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Commissioner, I can 17 stop there for today. I'm not -- I'm not -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're not 19 finished? 20 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I'm not finished -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well that's 22 what I was going to say. Would you like to finish or -- 23 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I'm going to be a -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 25 going to be a little while longer?
2431 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yeah. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then let's 3 stop now and continue tomorrow morning. 4 THE WITNESS: I wanted to go away 5 tomorrow. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 7 okay, Mr. George? 8 THE WITNESS: Not really. I didn't -- I 9 wanted to go away tomorrow. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've had 11 enough for today, I presume. Okay we'll stop now. We 12 are reconvening tomorrow morning at nine o'clock and -- 13 and trying to conclude by half past 3:00. 14 All right? Mr. George, are you okay to 15 start again at nine o'clock tomorrow morning? 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'll try to have all 17 my business done by then. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much. The Hearing is adjourned for the day, thank 20 you. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 22 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, the 25th of November 23 at 9:00 a.m. 24 25 --- Upon adjourning at 4:34 p.m.
2441 2 Certified Correct, 3 4 5 6 __________________ 7 Dustin Warnock 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25