11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 23rd, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) (np) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena 18 (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Maureen Smith )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) (np) Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 RODERICK GEORGE, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 7 7 8 9 Certificate of Transcript 241 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-87 Document 1002409 Map of Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park and area "Welcome to 5 Ipperwash!" Marked by witness 6 Mr. Roderick George 61 7 P-88 "Stan" Thompson Drawing September 20,1995, 8 marked by Witness Roderick George 70 9 P-89 Copy of Tape FOI#06 Part 1, Aerial 10 Footage, Project Maple-sept 5,1995, DVD 11 format, Copied date: 2004/04/23 127 12 P90-I OPP Gatehouse Video Sept 06/95, 13 19:04-19:05 155 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:05 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is now in 4 session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden presiding. 5 Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Our witness today is Mr. 10 Roderick Abraham George and if Mr. George could come forward 11 please? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. George. 14 MR. RODERICK GEORGE: Good morning. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prefer to swear on the 16 Bible, affirm, or use an alternate oath, sir. 17 MR. RODERICK GEORGE: Alternate. 18 19 RODERICK ABRAHAM GEORGE, Sworn: 20 21 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: I understand that you were born on August 23 the 28th, 1955? 24 A: Yes. 25
81 Q: And that that would make you today forty- 2 eight (48) years old? 3 A: Yes. Forty-nine (49) I -- 4 Q: Forty-nine (49), yes. And the -- I 5 understand you were born in Sarnia but spent the first part 6 of your life at Kettle Point; is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you moved to the Sarnia Reserve in 9 grade eleven (11) to go to school? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And you went to school in -- on the 12 Sarnia Reserve for grade eleven (11) and half of grade twelve 13 (12), is that correct? 14 A: Yep. 15 Q: And I understand as well that you moved 16 to Sarnia Reserve in I think it's 1971, 1972, in that area? 17 A: In that area, yeah. 18 Q: And you were married in 1973? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you -- was that in Sarnia, sir, or 21 back -- were you living in the Sarnia Reserve then? 22 A: Sarnia Reserve, yes. 23 Q: And the -- that your marriage ended in 24 divorce subsequent to 1973; is that correct? 25 A: That's correct.
91 Q: But you had two (2) children, Wendy and 2 Jodius (phonetic)? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And then you were married again in 1980 5 -- in the early 80's? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: To your wife Gina George? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And you have five (5) children, is that 10 correct? 11 A: Seven (7). 12 Q: Seven (7)? There's -- you and Gina had 13 Sharmin (phonetic), Nicholas -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Melanie? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Amanda? 18 A: And Steph. 19 Q: And Stephanie? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And you have, as I understand it, twelve 22 (12) grandchildren? 23 A: Yes, I do. 24 Q: And your parents were Abraham and Muriel 25 Elsie George?
101 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And your father was also called, 3 "Hamster"? 4 A: From time to time, yeah. 5 Q: And your maternal grandparents were 6 Pheobe (phonetic) and William Smith? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And they came -- they lived at Kettle 9 Point? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And your paternal grandparents were 12 Robert and Laura George? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And the -- your grandparents lived at -- 15 had lived at Stony Point? Is that correct? Before the 16 appropriation in 1942? 17 A: Yes, they did. 18 Q: And you have a number of siblings? Verle 19 (phonetic)? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And is Verle the -- the oldest? 22 A: Yes, she is. 23 Q: And she lives at Kettle Point? 24 A: Still does, yeah. 25 Q: And your brother, Carl, who passed away?
111 A: Yes, he's deceased. 2 Q: And how old was your brother when he 3 passed away? 4 A: He was around upper -- upper forties, I 5 believe. 6 Q: And Carl also lived at Kettle Point? 7 A: Yes, he did. 8 Q: And your sister -- you have a sister, 9 Sandra Lundehn (phonetic)? 10 A: Yes, 11 Q: And Sandra Lundehn now lives at the -- at 12 Stoney Point? 13 A: Yes, she does. 14 Q: You have a brother, Frank? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And he lives in London? 17 A: London, Ontario, yeah. 18 Q: And a sister -- your sister -- you have a 19 sister, Joy Lewis (phonetic)? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And she's now living at Stony Point? 22 A: Yes, she is. 23 Q: You have a sister, Mary Joseph? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And they're all older than you?
121 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And your sister, Mary Joseph, lives at 3 the Sarnia Reserve? 4 A: Yes, she does. 5 Q: And then -- in the order, there's you and 6 then your next younger brother is Stewart George? 7 A: Stewart, yeah. 8 Q: And Stewart's also known as "Worm"? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And Stewart lives at -- Stewart George 11 lives at Stony Point? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And after Stewart, your second younger 14 brother is Elwood George? 15 A: Elwood, yeah. 16 Q: And he lives at Stony Point as well? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then the next youngest brother is 19 Robert George? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And he lives on the Sarnia Reserve? 22 A: Sarnia Reserve, yeah. 23 Q: And the youngest sibling is Tina George? 24 A: Yeah, she lives at Stony Point. 25 Q: And she lives at Stony Point? And I
131 understand as well that you're sometimes known as "Judas"; is 2 that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And, can you tell us how you got that 5 nickname, Mr. George? 6 A: No relation to the Bible. My uncle gave 7 me that name. 8 Q: And how old were you when your uncle gave 9 you that name? 10 A: I'd be around seven (7). 11 Q: And do you know why your uncle gave you 12 that name? 13 A: He called me that when he didn't want to 14 swear. 15 Q: And was then you were getting into 16 mischief as a young person -- as a child? 17 A: Probably. 18 Q: But, at any rate, that was your Uncle 19 Bruce, as I understand it. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Is that correct? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: At any rate, the name stuck and you're 24 known as -- called Judas today? 25 A: Yeah.
141 Q: Now, before we go on, I understand, Mr. 2 George, that you have had some run-ins with the law; is that 3 correct? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And that in 1972 in Forest, Ontario you 6 were convicted of attempted theft and fined fifty dollars 7 ($50); is that correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And in 1973, in Sarnia, you were 10 convicted of possession of a narcotic and fined two hundred 11 dollars ($200) and in default, two (2) months' imprisonment - 12 - 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: Is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I take it you paid the fine? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And in 1976 you were convicted of 19 assault, causing bodily harm and were fined one hundred 20 dollars ($100) and in default, fourteen (14) days; is that 21 correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And I take it you paid the fine? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And in 1980, on July 21st, 1980 in
151 Sarnia, you were convicted of four (4) charges. The first 2 was threatening and which you were required to enter into a 3 recognisance for twelve (12) months, is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You were convicted of common assault and 6 fined twenty-five dollars ($25) or in default, five (5) days' 7 imprisonment; is that correct? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And you paid the twenty-five dollars 10 ($25) I take it? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And on the same day you were convicted of 13 common assault and fined two hundred dollars ($200), or in 14 default twenty (20) days plus an order of fifty dollars ($50) 15 restitution was made; is that correct, sir? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And you paid the two hundred dollars 18 ($200) and made the restitution, I take it? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And on the same day you were convicted of 21 mischief and fined fifty dollars ($50) for that, or in 22 default, five (5) days and is that correct, sir? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And you paid the fine, the fifty dollars 25 ($50)?
161 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And then in 1981, in Sarnia, you were 3 convicted of assaulting a police officer and fined two 4 hundred dollars, or in default, twenty (20) days; is that 5 correct, sir? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And you paid the fine of two hundred 8 dollars ($200)? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And then in 1984 you were convicted of 11 assault causing bodily harm and were imprisoned for thirty 12 (30) days; is that correct? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And 1987, you were convicted of mischief 15 and fined seventy-five dollars ($75); is that correct? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And then in 1991, you were found guilty 18 of possession of a narcotic for the purposes of trafficking, 19 and sentenced to three (3) months imprisonment; is that 20 correct? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And between 1991 and nineteen (19) -- 23 September 1995, you had no other convictions? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And as a result of the events of
171 September -- September 4th, 1995, you were charged with 2 mischief and pleaded guilty to mischief over five thousand 3 dollars ($5,000); is that correct? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And you were fined five hundred dollars 6 ($500)? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And put on twelve (12) months' probation 9 and you made restitution? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: And that was with respect to what we'll 12 hear later this morning, the incident with respect to the 13 Ontario Provincial Police cruiser? 14 A: Yes, it was. 15 Q: And can you recall how much restitution 16 you paid? 17 A: I believe it was seven (7) or eight 18 hundred dollars ($800). 19 Q: And that was paid before you went to 20 Court? 21 A: Yes, it was. 22 Q: And as I also understand, that you were 23 charged as a result of the entry into the Park, with 24 trespass, but that charge was subsequently withdrawn? 25 A: Yeah.
181 Q: Then the -- you returned, as I understand 2 it, from Sarnia -- the Sarnia reserve to Kettle Point in the 3 mid-80's; is that correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: You and your family moved back to Kettle 6 Point? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And, in fact, your wife Gina is from 9 Kettle Point originally? 10 A: Is my wife Gina from Kettle Point? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Sarnia Reserve. 13 Q: From Sarnia Reserve? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Excuse me. But you moved to Kettle Point 16 in the mid 1980's and I understand it that you worked at the 17 Army Camp? 18 A: Yes, I did. 19 Q: And you worked at the Army Camp from 1985 20 to 1993? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And you assisted -- you worked at the 23 Army Camp in the summer when the cadets were there, as I 24 understand it? 25 A: Yep.
191 Q: And you worked as part of a crew working 2 with the engineers and doing general maintenance work; is 3 that correct? 4 A: Yeah. In the summer was labour pooling. 5 The off cadet season was with -- civilian engineers. 6 Q: And during that period, did you work in 7 the -- during the winter time at the Army Camp? 8 A: Not that often. But sometimes I did, 9 yes. 10 Q: Sometimes? And then 1993 I understand it 11 was the last year that cadets were at the Army Camp, is that 12 correct? 13 A: Yes. Yes, sir. 14 Q: And after that -- and that was the last 15 year that you worked at the Army Camp? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And from 1993 to 1995 you worked as you 18 put it, I think as a jack of all trades -- 19 A: Odd jobs, yeah. 20 Q: Odd jobs at Kettle Point? 21 A: In Sarnia mostly. 22 Q: In Sarnia? But you were living at Kettle 23 Point? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And after July of 1995 as I understand it
201 you worked on the maintenance and property management with 2 respect to Stony Point. Initially the contract was held by 3 someone else; is that correct? There was a contract let by 4 the Federal Government for maintenance and property 5 management of Stony Point after the military left in July of 6 1995; is that correct, Mr. George? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And for a period of time that contract 9 was held by someone who's no longer at Stony Point? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And then did you work for the person who 12 held that contract initially? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: And then some time within the first year 15 that contract was awarded to you after the other person left? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And do you still hold the contract? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: And can you just tell us briefly what 20 your responsibilities are with respect to the contract for 21 maintenance and property management at the former Army Camp? 22 A: Ensure water quality, make sure it's 23 tested every week, which it is. And sewage, make sure the 24 sewage pumps are all in working order. 25 Q: Yes.
211 A: And if it breaks, get it fixed, general 2 upkeep, fire -- fire prevention, do regular checks on the 3 buildings to make sure everything's -- there's no danger, 4 cutting grass and stuff like that. 5 Q: And -- and as part of the contract with 6 the Federal Government, is there a provision with respect to 7 access to the former Army Camp? 8 A: Yep. Access control is part of it. 9 Q: So that you're responsible for 10 controlling access to the Army Camp -- the former Army Camp? 11 A: Yes, I am. 12 Q: And is it part of that contract or part 13 of the agreement and the security access, that the release 14 -- you're required to ask -- ask people to sign a release 15 before they do onto the Army Camp? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And that's as a result of the Federal 18 Government? 19 A: Yeah, it was one (1) of the requirements 20 concerning UXO, that's all. 21 Q: Pardon me. 22 A: It's concerning the UXO, possible UXO'S 23 in the area. 24 Q: And UXO's are? 25 A: Unexploded ordinates.
221 Q: Okay. Now -- and under the contract for 2 maintenance and property management, you employ other 3 residents of Stony Point; is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: To assist in doing the work that's 6 required by your agreement with the Federal Government? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And when you were growing up, did your 9 father talk to you about Stony Point? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And I understand it your father was a 12 young man when his family, his -- his parents, Robert and 13 Laura George had to leave Stony Point with the appropriation 14 in 1942? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And, can you tell us a little bit about 17 what you were told by your father about life at Stony Point 18 and the move to Kettle Point? 19 A: Well, he would talk about life -- how it 20 used to be in Stony Point. 21 Q: And, what did he tell you? 22 A: About going in the bush and cutting logs 23 and what they call spiles (phonetic) a couple of times and 24 there used to be a salt mine in what they call Chicken 25 Island. They used to cut firewood for the steam engines.
231 Q: And where was -- can you tell us where 2 Chicken Island is? 3 A: It's at the mouth of the River Aux Sable. 4 Q: Okay. And there used to -- there used to 5 be a salt --? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- mine there? 8 A: Yeah. It's not there no more. 9 Q: It's not there any more? Okay, and what 10 are spiles, Mr. George? 11 A: To do with making docks and stuff like 12 that, just logs. 13 Q: Big logs? 14 A: Most people call them bolts of evil. 15 Q: Okay, and what else did he tell you as a 16 young man about life at Stony Point? 17 A: About the farming; a lot of people had 18 their own farm and how people going around and help each 19 other with their farming and, like, the work was shared, 20 like, you know --. 21 Q: Between all the people who lived on the 22 Reserve? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And I take it your grandparents had land 25 at Stony Point?
241 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did your father ever get any land at 3 Stony Point before the appropriation? 4 A: He told me that there was forty (40) -- 5 forty (40) acres set aside for him. 6 Q: But he didn't receive that? Did he 7 receive that before the appropriation? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And, so that when he left, he had left 10 his land as well? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: It had been my understanding that he 13 hadn't received that forty (40) acres because he wasn't -- 14 hadn't reached the appropriate age, but it had been set aside 15 as -- can you -- am I wrong on that, Mr. George? 16 A: No, and plus he was married. 17 Q: Pardon me. 18 A: Plus he was married. 19 Q: At the time? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: So, I'm wrong. So he did -- the land was 22 set aside for he and his wife, your mother? 23 A: His family, yeah. 24 Q: Yeah. And what happened when he went to 25 Kettle Point? Did he get any land in Kettle Point?
251 A: Well, he had to buy the land his house is 2 still on. 3 Q: And how much land did he buy at Kettle 4 Point? 5 A: I'd have to say about half an acre, 6 maybe. 7 Q: And did you -- your grandfather, as well, 8 came from -- your grandfather, Robert and Laura George, also 9 came from Stony Point? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Did your grandfather talk to you about 12 Stony Point? 13 A: My grandfather? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Not that I can remember, but I was quite 16 small at the time. 17 Q: Small -- 18 A: I can remember him. 19 Q: Small when your grandfather passed away? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And, did your father tell you about the 22 Band governance with respect to the Kettle Point and Stony 23 Point Reserves and the Sarnia Reserve before the 24 appropriation? Did he talk to you about that when you were a 25 young man?
261 A: I remember him saying it was always for 2 him to travel all the way to Sarnia sometimes because of the 3 weather and -- because that's where the governing -- the 4 government part of it would take place for the three (3) 5 reserves. 6 Q: And that came up -- that changed in 1919? 7 A: 1999 -- 1919, yeah. 8 Q: That's correct? And, the -- in 1990, 9 your Uncle Dan George was buried at Stony Point;, is that 10 correct? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And you were a pall bearer at his 13 funeral? 14 A: Yes, I was. 15 Q: And did you talk to your Uncle Dan about 16 Stony Point before his death? 17 A: Well sometimes we'd go for a ride, like, 18 it would be my Uncle Dan, my dad and me, maybe another fellow 19 would go sometimes to London to take in junk and that's when 20 they would talk about things like that. 21 Q: And they would talk to you about life at 22 Stony Point? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And can you recall anything specific that 25 your Uncle Dan told you about life at Stony Point?
271 A: Well, it was all pretty well the same 2 amongst the both of them. Like, fishing, maple syrup and all 3 that. They were kind of mad at one (1) time about the maple 4 syrup. They had the big kettles. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And when the military came in they asked 7 the military if they could remove those kettles so they can 8 continue in making syrup in Kettle Point, but they -- the 9 military just smashed them up on them and they were kind of 10 mad about that, eh? Because they were made out of cast iron 11 -- cast iron kettles. 12 Q: The kettles were made of cast iron? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And did you, as a youngster, hunt and 15 fish with your father and uncle? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And the -- did you hunt and fish on the 18 -- the Army Camp? 19 A: I never, ever went hunting in there. 20 Q: Okay. And were -- did your father and 21 uncle talk to you about hunting and fishing on the Army Camp. 22 A: They used to, yeah. 23 Q: Pardon? 24 A: Yeah, they used to talk about hunting, 25 because they used -- there was a time when they used to have
281 a market for skunks. They used to reach in the -- they had 2 like -- how the heck are you going to catch a skunk. They 3 know there'd be one (1) in the hole and reach in and grab it 4 and just make sure you keep his tail down when you pull him 5 out, eh? 6 They used to do that on -- 7 Q: On the Army Camp? 8 A: On the Army Camp, yeah. 9 Q: And there was a market for skunks? 10 A: Yeah. At the time there was. 11 Q: And the -- and do you know -- did you -- 12 I take it you never went hunting or fishing with your father 13 or your uncle on the Army Camp when you were a young man? 14 A: No, not on the Army Camp. 15 Q: And do you hunt today? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: And when did you stop hunting? 18 A: When I lived down on Sarnia reserve. 19 Q: And so that would be before 1985? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And did you own a firearm at any time 22 during your life? 23 A: When I lived at Sarnia reserve, yeah. 24 Q: And what was that? 25 A: Just a .22.
291 Q: And what did you use the .22 for? 2 A: Pardon? 3 Q: What did you use the .22 for? 4 A: Hunt rabbits. 5 Q: Okay. And since 1985, have you -- I take 6 -- have you hunted? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And since 1993, have you hunted or 9 participated in hunting parties at the Army Camp? 10 A: No, I never. 11 Q: And do you fish? 12 A: Yes, I do. 13 Q: And do you now fish at the Army Camp? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Now, talking about the maple syrup. I 16 understand that you now make -- make maple -- 17 A: Yes, we still do. 18 Q: -- syrup-- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- at Stony Point now that -- 21 A: Yes, we do. 22 Q: -- since you've moved back? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: You know if the military made maple syrup 25 when you were working there?
301 A: If they made it? I don't think so. 2 Q: Okay. Now, in 1993, when did you learn 3 about the move on to the Army Camp? 4 A: On to, like, the base itself? 5 Q: Onto the base. Onto the range. 6 A: I don't know. I wasn't there in prison - 7 - I was in prison when they actually moved onto there and it 8 was a matter of fact it was kind of news to me that they did 9 go on there. But I was there afterwards in support. 10 Q: Okay. And when you say that it was news 11 to you that -- when they went on there, how did you find out 12 that people had moved on to the Army Camp? 13 A: I think I was on my way home from Sarnia. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: When I heard something about it. 16 Q: And what did you do after you heard about 17 the move onto the -- in fact they moved onto the rifle range 18 area; is that not correct? 19 A: Yeah. At the time, yeah. 20 Q: And the -- who did you hear the -- that 21 the people had moved into -- onto the rifle range. 22 A: I think it was on the radio. 23 Q: On the radio? 24 A: It could have been, yeah. 25 Q: And did you, in the summer of 1993, visit
311 the people who were in -- at the -- on the rifle ranges at 2 the Army Camp? 3 A: Did I? 4 Q: Did you visit? 5 A: Did I visit them? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 8 Q: And did you stay -- how often would you 9 visit, Mr. George? 10 A: As often as I could I guess I'd be -- I 11 have no schedule or anything. 12 Q: Two (2) or three (3) times a week? 13 A: Probably could be more. 14 Q: Could be more? And I understand that you 15 did not physically move into the rifle ranges in 1993? 16 A: No, I never. 17 Q: And you may have stayed overnight but you 18 didn't sleep? 19 A: Yeah a couple of times stayed overnight. 20 Q: And when you stayed overnight, you were 21 there to do what? 22 A: Just to stay in the trailer and keep the 23 fire going. Sometimes in the winter time mostly. 24 Q: That you would go on assist with keeping 25 the fires going?
321 A: Yeah. Sit around with the other guys and 2 talk. 3 Q: And in the winter time when you would go, 4 whose trailer would you -- would you generally go to? 5 A: It would be the one they called Dudley's 6 trailer. 7 Q: Okay. And in nineteen (19) -- the winter 8 of 1993, 1994, did your father have a trailer on -- on the -- 9 at the -- in the rifle -- 10 A: Not in the beginning but we eventually 11 got him one. 12 Q: Got him one? 13 A: Yep. 14 Q: And in 1994 did you live on the rifle 15 ranges? 16 A: Did I live there? No. 17 Q: You would -- as in 1993 visit with the 18 people on the rifle ranges, is that correct? 19 A: Yeah. Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And what about in 1995 before July 29th, 21 1995? Did you live in 1995 on the rifle ranges before -- 22 A: Was I there? 23 Q: No. 24 A: Or did I live there? 25 Q: Did you live there?
331 A: No. 2 Q: But you visited and gave support? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And can you tell me -- we go back to the 5 May of 1993, what the governance was at the -- I keep getting 6 somebody's message. The -- in 1993 when the occupiers moved 7 onto the rifle range, was there any form of governance for 8 the people living on the rifle ranges? Was there a Band, 9 council, and a chief. 10 A: Yeah. It changed from time to time but I 11 think in the beginning they had like a -- they called it a 12 board, say a board of director which consisted of Elders, my 13 father being one (1) of them. 14 Q: And so your father was on that board of 15 directors? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Was -- in 1993 at one (1) time was 18 Maynard T. George, elected chief? 19 A: I believe he was, yeah. 20 Q: And then Mr. Carl George was elected 21 chief, as well, after Mr. Maynard T. George in 1993, is that 22 correct? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And I put in front of you a document. 25 It's Inquiry Document Number 2002451 and this is a document
341 that has -- do you see it there, Mr. George? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And it appears to be a document relating 4 to elected members of the Stony Point Band. And before 5 today, do you recall seeing this document? 6 A: Not -- not this document, but I'm -- I'm 7 aware of the -- its contents, yeah. 8 Q: Okay, can you tell us about -- was there 9 an election in 1993 where Mr. Carl George was elected Chief 10 of the Stony Point Band? 11 A: Yeah, at the place, yeah. 12 Q: And were you elected as a councillor? 13 A: Yes, I was. 14 Q: And Mr. Glenn Morris George was elected 15 as a councillor as well? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And Roberta -- now Glenn Morris George is 18 your cousin, I -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And Roberta Ann George? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And is Roberta Ann George related to you? 23 A: She's my first cousin as well. 24 Q: First cousin as well? And Terrence Leroy 25 George?
351 A: I don't think he's related, but -- 2 Q: But he was elected as well? 3 A: Yes, he was. 4 Q: And then there was a tie for Mr. Bruce 5 Manning and Ms. Marlene Cloud? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Was that tie ever broken, do you know? 8 A: No, I kind of think they were allowed to 9 partake. 10 Q: Both of them? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And who voted for the members of the 13 Council in 1993? Who -- who was -- who were permitted to 14 vote? 15 A: The people who had -- were of Stony Point 16 descent. 17 Q: So, that included people of Stony Point 18 descent, whether they were living on the rifle ranges or not? 19 A: Yeah, everybody who was from Stony Point. 20 They didn't necessarily have to be living there. 21 Q: And by -- from Stony Point whose family 22 had lived on Stony Point before the appropriation? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And can you show us -- just point out -- 25 we've looked at this before, but where your -- where Mr.
361 Dudley George's trailer was located and where your father's 2 trailer was eventually located? And there's a laser -- 3 little black laser pen here that has a red button. Well, I 4 might do it. As I understand it, your -- Mr. Dudley George's 5 trailer was located in this -- the area of -- and I'm looking 6 at Exhibit P-40. 7 A: Right here, yeah. 8 Q: Just along the road that runs parallel to 9 Highway 21, just to the right of the road, that on Exhibit P- 10 40 leads up on the out -- on the west side of the rifle 11 ranges; is that correct? 12 A: It was known as the Parteburg (phonetic) 13 range. 14 Q: The which? 15 A: Parteburg range. 16 Q: Part --? 17 A: It's a military term. 18 Q: Okay. And, there's a building there 19 today, is there not that was there before and remains at this 20 location that still exists; is that correct? 21 A: Yeah, that's the range shack, it's 22 called. 23 Q: It was a range shack and your father's 24 trailer was just to the north of that range track, as I 25 understand it -- range shack, as I understand it?
371 A: It was more -- more into this area. 2 Q: More to the -- 3 A: The fence line runs here. 4 Q: More to the west? 5 A: And it was right -- it was right in here. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Oh, yeah, it was over here for a while. 8 Q: And then -- 9 A: And then it got moved. 10 Q: And then it was moved farther west? And, 11 the -- there was an entrance, as I understand it, that was 12 used to get into the rifle ranges in 1993 and can you point 13 out on Exhibit P-40 where that is, sir? And it's an entrance 14 -- was -- the entrance was off Highway 21 and you're pointing 15 out an area that's on the road -- on the west side of the -- 16 what's called the rifle range, there. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: It was at the bottom of that on the south 19 side? 20 A: There was another one here. 21 Q: And there was another one near the road 22 that leads up to Magazine (phonetic)? Is that --? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And those entrances were agreed to with 25 the military, is that correct?
381 A: That's what I understood they were, yeah. 2 Q: Did you have any -- did you participate 3 in any meetings with respect to the agreement on those 4 entrances to the rifle ranges? 5 A: Not on -- I had one -- attended one (1) 6 meeting with Carl, not about those but there was one (1) they 7 were concerned about was right here, where people were coming 8 in off of -- that would be Outer Drive. 9 Q: Sure. And that -- perhaps what we'll do, 10 is come back to that in a moment. The -- in 1993, as well we 11 heard some evidence that a church was built on -- Mr. Stacey 12 George told us yesterday that a church was built and I 13 believe it's now called, you said, the Argument Hall? 14 A: Yeah, that's what it led to be. 15 Q: And that's located on Exhibit P-40. I 16 believe near where the Sten gun range is, there's a -- just 17 to the west of the -- there's a road that's leads up. It's 18 called Transition Range and it's at the intersection of the 19 road that's to the west of the Transition Range and the -- 20 the road that runs parallel to Highway 21; is that correct? 21 A: It would have been this area, right here. 22 Q: Oh, so it's in the area of just below the 23 Sten Range? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Referring to Exhibit P-40 and that
391 building exists today? The Argument -- 2 A: Yes, it does. 3 Q: And I think it's a white building? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And do you know how long -- it was built 6 by -- do you know who it was built by, the Argument -- the 7 Church Argument Hall? 8 A: Yeah. People that moved in. 9 Q: People who moved in? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And a steeple was put on it for a period 12 of time? 13 A: They were -- say it again. 14 Q: A steeple was put on the -- 15 A: Yes, it was. 16 Q: And it was used as a church for a period 17 of time? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: And then the steeple was removed and it 20 was used as a meeting hall? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And why is it called the Argument Hall, 23 Mr. George? 24 A: It's where everybody usually ended up in 25 an Argument there.
401 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: Usually ended up as an Argument. 3 Q: So it was called that because people 4 would go in and air their differences -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- in meetings in the -- in the -- in the 7 hall? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And in 1994 were you still a councillor 10 for the Stony Point band? 11 A: Which year? 12 Q: 1994? You were elected 1993. 13 A: I don't think so. It was -- that was 14 rather short-lived. 15 Q: Okay. What happened with the band 16 Council that was elected at -- in 1993? Can you tell us when 17 in 1993 that election was held? Was it -- it's my 18 understanding it was in August. 19 A: Around -- yeah, around August, end of 20 July, first of August somewhere yeah. 21 Q: And what happened to that band Council 22 and the chief, Carl George? 23 A: I don't know exactly what happened, but I 24 guess in so many words, I don't know if Carl quit or whether 25 he stepped down. I don't know exactly whether he was asked
411 to step down and we were down there talking to him one (1) 2 day and that's I'll ever had any dealings with it. 3 Q: And when was that, Mr. George? 4 A: It would have to be '93, I believe. 5 Q: Okay. But in 1994 you went -- you were 6 telling us about a meeting that you attended with the 7 military with Mr. Carl George. Was that in 1993 or 1993, the 8 meeting, that you began to tell us -- 9 A: Jeez, I really don't -- can't answer 10 that. 11 Q: And can you tell us again what that 12 meeting with the military was about? 13 A: It was an access -- there was an access 14 that wasn't there but somebody made it. 15 Q: And that was along what is now Outer 16 Drive? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And you're pointing to the area where 19 there's a -- I think the elevation is six hundred (600) just 20 to the north of where the road curves and almost joins Outer 21 Drive; is that correct? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And so what was happening there, Mr. 24 George, that caused the problem? 25 A: There were people coming in that was not
421 part of the group, the initial residents. And they were 2 concerned that the other people were coming in that was not 3 part of us. They were bringing in stolen cars and we were 4 getting the blame for it and so we agreed to dig up that area 5 with a back-hoe and block it off, that's all it was. 6 Q: So that you had a meeting with the 7 military over that. The result of which was the access was 8 blocked by digging a trench and so that people could no 9 longer get through there? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And in 1993 you are aware that there was 12 a incident with respect to the helicopter -- is that -- a 13 helicopter shooting in August of 1993? Did you become aware 14 of that, Mr. George? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And how did you become aware of that? 17 A: I believe I heard the news on the radio 18 or television. It was one (1) of them. 19 Q: And were you in -- so I take it you 20 weren't in the Camp the day that this incident is alleged to 21 have happened or the following day? 22 A: No, I wasn't. 23 Q: And during the summer of 1993, did you 24 attend a meeting with the Ontario Provincial Police on the 25 rifle ranges?
431 A: Yeah. We had one (1) meeting with them, 2 yeah. 3 Q: And was that in 1993 or 1994? 4 A: I would have to say it would be '93. 5 Q: And what was that meeting with the 6 Ontario Provincial Police about? 7 A: I can't say for sure. But I think it was 8 for opening up some kind of dialogue that people were tired 9 of being watched all the time. 10 Q: And when you say people were tired of 11 being watched, the OPP -- had people been -- were people 12 being watched by the Ontario Provincial Police? 13 A: Yeah. They were sitting right on Highway 14 21. 15 Q: And they sat on Highway 21 during the 16 summer of 1993? 17 A: Off and on, yes they did. 18 Q: Off and on? 19 A: Yep. 20 Q: And the -- can you tell us, do you 21 remember any of the officers who attended the meeting? 22 A: I remember George Speck was there. 23 Q: And how many police officers attended the 24 meeting? 25 A: I think there was three (3).
441 Q: And who attended from the residents of 2 Stony Point? 3 A: I think it was -- it could have been this 4 group here who might have been. No, it wasn't. It was me, 5 there was Glenn and a couple of others. 6 Q: Was Mr. Carl George there? 7 A: I kind of think he was, yeah. 8 Q: And what if anything happened as a result 9 of this meeting? 10 A: Well one (1) was, if they needed to talk 11 to the people there, that would be in plain clothes and plain 12 -- like an unmarked cruiser and not be carrying any side 13 arms. 14 Q: That was one of the things that your 15 group wanted them to do if they came on? 16 A: Yes. That's what the Elders wanted, 17 yeah. 18 Q: And anything else? 19 A: No, that I can remember. 20 Q: And were there any other meetings with 21 the -- after that meeting with Mr. Speck and the Ontario 22 Provincial Police officers, did the surveillance or the cars 23 being parked on Highway 21 diminish or cease? 24 A: Well, I wasn't there 100 percent of the 25 time you would have to ask someone who was there all the
451 time. 2 Q: But -- did you hear any reports as to 3 whether or not it had changed. 4 A: I don't think so. 5 Q: And between 1993 and July 29th, 1995, did 6 you personally have any other meetings with the Ontario 7 Provincial Police about the occupation? 8 A: I don't think so. 9 Q: And did you have any meetings with the 10 Ontario Provincial Police be -- between 1993 and July 29th, 11 1995 about any other issues? 12 A: Not that I recall. 13 Q: And in 1993 the -- were you aware of the 14 position taken by the Kettle and Stony Point Band Council 15 with respect to the occupation of the rifle ranges? 16 A: In which year? 17 Q: 1993? 18 A: The position they held? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: If any? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: I know they didn't condone it. 23 Q: And when you say, "They didn't condone 24 it," how do you know that the -- the Band Council didn't 25 condone it?
461 A: I didn't see any of them there. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: I -- I didn't see any of them there. 4 Q: Okay, and did you participate in going to 5 any of the Kettle and Stony Point Band Council meetings in 6 1993? 7 A: Not a Band Council meeting. 8 Q: And -- to any other meetings of Kettle 9 and Stony Point? 10 A: I think a number of us went down there to 11 -- I think it was a negotiation meeting. 12 Q: And -- to negotiate about what, sir? 13 A: Stoney Point. 14 Q: About Stoney Point? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And when you say, "To negotiate about 17 Stoney Point," what are you referring to? 18 A: The return. 19 Q: Of Stoney Point? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And working with the Kettle and Stony 22 Band Council to deal with the Federal Government, I take it? 23 A: To -- for us to work? 24 Q: All of you together? Is -- was the 25 meeting -- was the purpose of the meeting to get all of you
471 to work together towards a -- 2 A: The purpose, I believe, was just to go 3 down and see what they were doing. 4 Q: Oh, ask -- to find out -- 5 A: Mainly information gathering. 6 Q: -- to find out what they were doing with 7 respect -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Now, I take you to the July 1995 -- July 10 29th, 1995, and when the move was made by members of the 11 community to go into the barracks area of the Army Camp, were 12 you present when the initial move took place? 13 A: No, I wasn't. 14 Q: And were there discussions among the 15 residents or among the people living on the rifle ranges 16 about moving into the built-up area before July 29th, 1995? 17 A: There -- there probably was, because I 18 remember in the winter time when it was pretty cold in that 19 old trailer and -- 20 Q: In the old trailer -- 21 A: -- I remember -- 22 Q: That's Mr. Dudley -- 23 A: -- Dudley's trailer and -- 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: -- the wind would even blow right through
481 it and I remember we'd say, We should be sleeping in those 2 buildings, they're on our land. 3 Q: And these conversations would take place 4 between the people living on the rifle ranges and -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- their supporters? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And did -- was there any formal meeting 9 held to discuss the -- the move onto the built-up -- into the 10 built-up area that you recall? 11 A: There might have been, but I'm not aware 12 of it. 13 Q: You're not aware of it? 14 A: I wasn't present. 15 Q: And did you know prior to July 29th, 16 1995, that the move was going to be made into the built-up 17 area on that day or shortly thereafter? 18 A: No, I didn't -- I didn't know of it. 19 Q: You didn't know it? And when did you 20 learn that the move had been made into the built-up area of 21 the Army Camp? 22 A: It was the same day I come back from 23 Sarnia. I dropped the wife off at her house in Kettle Point 24 and I was taking some grocery items down to the guys down 25 there and they were all -- I noticed them all -- a bunch of
491 them walking around in the built-up area and -- 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: -- I later found out that's what -- what 4 happened. 5 Q: And did you go into the -- onto the -- 6 you saw them trying to take it from the Highway? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And did you drive into the Army Camp? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And how did you get into the Army Camp? 11 A: There was an entrance at the Parteburg 12 range. 13 Q: The -- 14 A: The one we normally use. 15 Q: The entrance along Highway 21? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And did you then drive into the built-up 18 area? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And can you tell us what the mood was 21 when you -- 22 A: The mood was? 23 Q: Mood of the people that, when you -- 24 A: People's mood or my mood? 25 Q: Both, the people's mood and your mood.
501 A: They were all standing around, I guess it 2 would be just -- 3 Q: And -- 4 A: -- near the Protestant's chapel, Number 5 47. 6 Q: Building Number 47? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Yes, and what was happening at Building 9 47 when you -- 10 A: It was open and the military had a 11 plumber there, name of Shane Burley (phonetic). He was 12 hooking up the plumbing because it had been winterized. He 13 was getting it so the washroom would work. The military 14 invited the People to stay in that building. 15 Q: So -- and -- so this had -- this had 16 transpired by the time that you had arrived that the military 17 had agreed to open build -- Building 47 up for the use by the 18 People? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And in 19 -- when you arrived on July 21 29th, what parts of the built-up area, what buildings were 22 the military using? 23 A: Which ones were the military using? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: From what I could see, they were
511 stationed in this Building, Number 33. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: One (1) was their quarters. And they 4 used this Building Number 18 for their -- it was their 5 kitchen. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And they used Building 26, the drill 8 hole, for their -- sort of like an inventory control for the 9 decommission. 10 Q: And the buildings that you're referring 11 to are all on Exhibit P-41 that's now up on the screen, and 12 the other buildings -- there are many other buildings that 13 are shown on P-41 and those buildings were not being used by 14 the military? 15 A: They were being decommissioned. 16 Q: Being decommissioned? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And by being de -- what do you mean by 19 "being decommissioned", Mr. George? 20 A: Removal of -- they weren't all heated. 21 The heating units were being taken out. There was just basic 22 -- kind of just bare building there when they got done. 23 Q: And did you have any -- did you know at 24 the time or shortly thereafter how much of the Camp had been 25 decommissioned?
521 A: I later heard about 90 percent. 2 Q: About 90 percent? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And the -- how many military personnel 5 were in the Camp on July 29th when you were there? 6 A: Total, there wasn't that many. I'd have 7 to say thirty (30) or forty (40), if even that much. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: It was kind of like a skeleton crew. 10 Q: And the military -- did you participate 11 in any meetings with the military on the evening of July 12 29th? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And I understand that you were present 15 when the military left the built-up area on July 29th? 16 A: That evening, yeah. 17 Q: And can you tell us about that, when they 18 left, how many of them, how they left? 19 A: Well, they took their military vehicles, 20 they took them down to -- I think it was the back hoe. I 21 don't know. They took a truck, but I knew definitely they 22 put the back hoe in Ravenswood General store to park it. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: The military personnel had a lot of their 25 own private vehicles and anyway they left, I think the base
531 commander was the last to leave. He basically said -- well 2 he did actually say, it's all yours, and he left. 3 Q: He said to you, you were present -- 4 A: To us, yeah. 5 Q: -- when he said, it's all yours, and 6 left? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: I believe his name was a Smith. 10 Q: Smith? 11 A: I'm not -- I'm not too sure on that. 12 Q: And where -- where were you and where was 13 Mr. Smith when he said this? 14 A: The gatehouse to the entrance of the 15 Camp. 16 Q: The main gatehouse? 17 A: Yeah, that'd be right -- this area. 18 Q: And you're referring to -- the main 19 gatehouse is actually building number 2, is it not, on 20 Exhibit P41? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Is that yes? 23 A: Yeah, that's right. 24 Q: Thank you. And you said the military had 25 asked their -- the plumber Mr. Burley, was it Mr. Burley?
541 A: Yes. 2 Q: And was he a member of the military or -- 3 A: He's a civilian contractor. 4 Q: Contractor? And did they hook up the 5 bathrooms in any other buildings? 6 A: Not that I'm aware of. 7 Q: And in order to hook up the bathrooms, do 8 you know what they had to do? 9 A: He had to get under the building and just 10 put all the drain plugs back in, that's all. 11 Q: What had happened is all of the plugs had 12 been removed to drain all of the water out of the system? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And on July 29th when you were there, did 15 you move into a building or choose a building? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And where -- which building did you 18 choose, Mr. George? 19 A: Building 37. 20 Q: And building 37 runs along the road that 21 runs parallel to Highway 21? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: But south of that actually. 24 A: North of 21. 25 Q: North of 21 --
551 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- south of the road that runs on the 3 inside parallel? Is that correct? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And so -- and do you still live in 6 Building 37? 7 A: Yes, I do. 8 Q: And when did you physically move into 9 Building 37 with your -- your family? 10 A: It seems like a little bit at a time, 11 like, since the time we cleaned the building we just 12 eventually moved a little bit at a time. 13 Q: And when did you start staying overnight 14 at the -- in the built-up area of the Army Camp? 15 A: Probably that evening. 16 Q: That evening? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: But I -- I understood that you moved back 19 and forth -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- from Kettle Point to the army Camp and 22 -- was there at any point -- when was the point that you 23 changed your principal residence, the place you were living, 24 from Kettle Point? 25 A: Within two (2) weeks.
561 Q: Within two (2) weeks? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And can you tell us how many people were 4 in the built-up area when you arrived? 5 A: Lots of them. There would have to be a 6 hundred (100) or more. 7 Q: And the -- did that include men, women 8 and children? 9 A: Yes, it did. 10 Q: And I think I may have asked you this, 11 but I'm going to ask you again. What was the mood of the 12 people like when you got there? 13 A: They were happy. 14 Q: And were you happy? What was your mood? 15 A: I guess I was. I would have to say I was 16 happy. 17 Q: Pardon me? 18 A: Yes, I was. 19 Q: And after the move into the built-up area 20 of the army base in July of 1995, and between then and 21 September 4th, did you have any contact with the Ontario 22 Provincial Police or any Ontario Provincial Police officers? 23 A: I believe not. 24 Q: And did anyone -- did you -- now, in 19 25 -- July of -- August of 1995, it's my understanding that you
571 were chosen as a principal person of the Stony Point 2 residents? 3 A: I don't know exactly when but yeah I was. 4 Q: And can you tell us how that came about 5 and the process by which that came about, Mr. George? 6 A: Well, there was a need to have some kind 7 of a, like, I'll use the word governance or -- and there was 8 a need for spokespersons and people designated and it was 9 just like -- there was no meeting or anything, it was just 10 like, sort of like on consensus of the people that -- I think 11 at the beginning it was me and Glenn were chosen -- 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: -- and my father, he was still alive at 14 the time. 15 Q: And your father as well, he was -- 16 A: Yeah, he was considered the Elder. 17 Q: And, so there was you and Glenn and your 18 -- your father, Abraham George? 19 A: Yeah, and I believe Clifford was there as 20 well at the time, I believe. 21 Q: Yes? And anyone else? Rose Manning? 22 A: No, not -- not really. There was, sort 23 of like -- yeah, she was maybe involved in a little bit of 24 the discussions up until -- I guess there was a split in the 25 residents.
581 Q: And -- 2 A: So she left, I guess. 3 Q: Until she left? When did -- can you tell 4 us when that happened? The split in the residents? 5 A: When it happened? 6 Q: Yeah, was it 19 -- it was after 1995, 7 wasn't it? Or was it? 8 A: Yeah, it was after '95, yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And, today, in 2004, are you still 10 a -- recognized as a principle person at Stoney Point? 11 A: Yes, I am. 12 Q: And was there a community meeting or a 13 discussion about that recently? 14 A: Yes, we had a meeting. 15 Q: And when you say, "They had a meeting," 16 it's the residents of Stoney Point or all -- the members 17 of -- 18 A: The residents, yeah. 19 Q: And that meeting took place not too long 20 ago? 21 A: A month or two (2) ago; maybe two (2) 22 months. 23 Q: And so -- and you were recognized as a 24 principle person along with Glenn George? 25 A: Yeah.
591 Q: And your brother, Stewart George? 2 A: Stewart. 3 Q: And then, I understand at that meeting, 4 David George and Elwood George were added? 5 A: I think so, yeah. 6 Q: Back in 19 -- August of 1995, was Stewart 7 George a -- recognized as a principle person? 8 A: In '95? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: No, I don't believe so. 11 Q: Then -- if I could turn to another 12 subject, the issue of burial grounds at -- on the former Army 13 Camp and at the Ipperwash Park, did you have discussions with 14 your father or your uncle, Dan George, about burial grounds, 15 firstly at the Army Camp? Did you ever have any discussions 16 about that? 17 A: I remember them talking about it. 18 Q: That there was a cemetery at the Army 19 Camp? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And -- was that when you were a young man 22 or child? 23 A: Yeah, before -- before I was married, 24 yeah. 25 Q: And what about the Ipperwash Park? Were
601 there discussions between -- were you told -- had -- did you 2 have any discussions with your father or uncle about 3 Ipperwash Park? What is -- became Ipperwash Park? 4 A: I wouldn't call it a discussion, but I 5 remember hearing them talk about it, saying that there are, 6 indeed, graves in there. 7 Q: And the -- can you tell us what the talk 8 was about that they talked about graves being in there that 9 you overheard? 10 A: The fact that they are in there and I've 11 got a brother in there and that they're basically 12 unprotected. 13 Q: And the -- whose brother was -- did you 14 refer to when you said, "They had a brother in there?" 15 A: My -- he would be my uncle. 16 Q: And is that Mr. Fletcher George? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And were you told by your father or uncle 21 where the graves were located in the Provincial Park? 22 A: They pointed out there's graves. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: The crick that runs through here, that's 25 the bridge.
611 Q: And you're referring, actually what we -- 2 this is up on the screen as a copy of Exhibit P-60, but what 3 -- what I'm going to ask you to do, Mr. George, is to point 4 out on Exhibit P-60, a copy of it, that's up on the screen, 5 and then I'm going to ask you to mark on a copy of the 6 "Welcome to Ipperwash" map the -- where the locations are 7 which we would then mark as the next exhibit. It would be 8 Exhibit 87. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir, P-87. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT P-87: Document 1002409 Map of Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park and area "welcome 13 to Ipperwash!" Marked by witness 14 Mr. Roderick George. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: So that referring to the " Welcome to 18 Ipperwash" map that's now -- will be marked -- the one you're 19 going to mark P-87, can you just show us where the creek -- 20 point out with your laser where the creek runs? 21 A: I think it runs close -- all over, like, 22 sort of like a snake in through here. 23 Q: Pardon me? 24 A: Through here. It -- it winds in and 25 through around the bush area here.
621 Q: Okay, and what you're referring to is the 2 area to the west and north-west of the maintenance building, 3 there's a road that runs from the maintenance where there's a 4 -- where it says "maintenance" up to -- and a road that runs 5 east and west just to the north of the trailer sanitary 6 station? 7 And it's in that area between the road -- the 8 north/south road and Army Camp Road that the bush is located 9 and the creek's located in? 10 A: Yeah, in this area. 11 Q: And perhaps on Exhibit P-87, that's in 12 front of you, you could mark -- there's a blue pen there, Mr. 13 George. You could mark a Number 1 on that -- there should be 14 a blue pen there. 15 A: Yes. What's it going to represent? 16 Q: And that represents where the creek was. 17 A: Oh. 18 Q: Creek area is. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And -- 23 A: It's black. 24 Q: It's black? Okay. 25 A: Okay.
631 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: Okay, thank you. Then can you point out 5 where you were told the graves -- the burial ground was, or 6 the graves were, Mr. George? 7 A: You pointed out the -- that on 8 maintenance road here? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Which leads to the pump house. That's 11 why we quit using any of this area here, there's graves -- 12 consists of graves in around here. 13 Q: And you're marking -- showing us an area 14 to the east of the north/south road leading from the 15 maintenance -- where maintenance is labelled on the map to 16 what is called the water treatment plant, on the east side. 17 Can you put a -- a large Number 2 and a big 18 circle in that area on your copy of P-87? 19 A: It's in red. 20 Q: It's in red? Okay. Can you put a big 21 circle in the whole area, or mark it off? I see you're cross 22 hatching it. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And so that's on the east side of that 25 road. And what about on the west side?
641 A: He never mentioned anything about it 2 here, because it always -- the -- 3 Q: It's swampy because of the creek -- 4 A: The crick is in there, eh. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: It's low-lying. 7 Q: And anywhere else did you father or uncle 8 tell you about? 9 A: He said this tree at one time, he 10 believed it was over this way further, and there used to be a 11 -- they had a funeral. There used to be a big tree sticking 12 out of the side of the bank -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- with -- with the roots. And as little 15 kids they used to climb in and around its roots. So that 16 would have to put -- there would have to be graves in this 17 area as well. 18 Q: And that is the area on the west side of 19 the Park to the north of the indication where the Park store 20 is. Could you put a 3 and cross-hatch the area that you're 21 referring to there on Exhibit P-87? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And what about near the water treatment
651 plant? 2 A: I never heard of them mentioning any of 3 them in this area, but there is graves in there but he never 4 mentioned it because that's what you're asking me. But he 5 never mentioned anything about this area, to me anyways. 6 Q: Okay. And did you learn anything about 7 that area from someone else? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: What did you learn about that area from 10 someone else? 11 A: The graves stopped right around in -- 12 roughly to this intersection and runs along in here. That's 13 would be your eastern boundary -- 14 Q: And you're -- 15 A: -- no it would be -- yeah, it would be 16 further over this way. This one, yeah. There's a bathhouse 17 right there. It runs roughly right in this area it's the 18 east -- eastern boundary and it runs this way. 19 Q: And so that your -- can you draw on 20 Exhibit P-87 what you're referring to as the eastern boundary 21 of -- 22 A: Number 4? 23 Q: And put number 4. That's the eastern 24 boundary and the -- you indicated that the graves were 25 located to the west of that eastern boundary over to the
661 western boundary of the -- of the fence of the Park; is that 2 -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And who told you about that? How did you 5 learn about that? 6 A: We had -- we asked for the assistance of 7 Bruce Elijah -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- and he was -- there was another, 10 forget what his name -- Jacobs, actually two (2) Jacobs. One 11 (1) of them he has the gift to see things. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: And we walked -- we walked the area and 14 he pointed out til we found out when the boundaries are. He 15 pointed out that there was a family buried right in this area 16 which is now a playground they used it for. There used to be 17 a powerful family that's buried there and he also pointed out 18 on the edge of this creek bank that there's a chief buried 19 there as well. 20 Q: And that was Mr. Jacob's who pointed 21 that. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And I take it this took place after the 24 occupation? 25 A: Yes.
671 Q: So this part of the Park and the burial 2 grounds in the Park took place after the occupation. You 3 knew before the occupation what you'd been told by your 4 father and your uncle. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Now -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, do 8 you want to take a morning break? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. That would be fine. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this be a 11 good time or -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, this is fine. We'll 13 -- for fifteen (15) minutes, sir? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that would 15 be good. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess for 17 fifteen (15) minutes. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 11:22 a.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 11:39 a.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now resumed, 23 please be seated. 24 25
681 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Now if I could go back for a moment to 3 the burial grounds, you pointed out on Exhibit P-87, a copy 4 that is on the screen, the road that runs from the 5 maintenance -- where the maintenance area is located up to 6 the intersection just to the north of the trailer's sanitary 7 station. And that road used to be open on the north side of 8 the maintenance area and has now been closed; is that 9 correct? 10 A: This one here? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Yes, it used to be. 13 Q: And could you mark a number 5 on that 14 road on P-87? And can you mark where it's been closed on the 15 south side? Just draw a line across it where point on the 16 south side by the maintenance area stops and just mark a 17 number 5 on the road? 18 A: Just in that location? 19 Q: Or just the -- just five (5) will 20 represent the road -- 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: -- that's been closed. And, that road 23 was open during the occupation. Can you tell me when it was 24 closed, Mr. George? Sorry, in the initial occupation of 25 September 4th, 5th, and 6th?
691 A: It would have been after -- after 2 September 5th, they closed it, yeah. 3 Q: Can you help me, was it in the fall of 4 September -- fall of '95? 5 A: Yeah, it would -- it would have been that 6 fall. 7 Q: That fall? And, frankly now, as we've 8 seen, it's completely overgrown? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And, we heard some evidence yesterday 11 from Mr. Stacey George with respect to the old Park area 12 that's located on the west side of Army Camp Road on the 13 south side of East Parkway Drive. 14 If you could -- right behind you, Mr. George, 15 is a copy of Exhibit P-23, and, perhaps, Commissioner -- 16 we'll be using this later. Perhaps now that we're going to 17 refer to it, we could mark it as the next exhibit; it would 18 be Exhibit P-88. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-88, Your Honour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-88? 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-88: "Stan" Thompson Drawing September 23 20,1995, marked by Witness 24 Roderick George 25
701 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And, the -- are you familiar with the 3 intersection, Mr. George? 4 A: Yes, I am. 5 Q: And the -- can you point out on P-88 6 where the old Park was? Are you aware of where the old Park 7 was? 8 A: It was in this area. 9 Q: And you're point to -- 10 A: It was farther back and further down 11 there. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is the exhibit 13 in a place where it's visible to all Counsel? It looks like 14 it's -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps what we could do - 16 - 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It looks like 18 it's hidden behind the screen. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Mr. Registrar, is pull 20 it up a bit so that it can -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 22 better. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- even if it goes over a 24 bit of the screen, it's... 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's better.
711 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And you're pointing to the area -- to the 3 -- on Exhibit P-88 -- to the area that is to the west of Army 4 Camp Road south of East Parkway Drive and there are some 5 vacant buildings labelled there and there's a label, "Grass 6 Covered Field." When did you learn that that area had 7 formerly been used as a part of a provincial park? 8 A: I remember -- it's in my lifetime. I 9 don't know when, but I remember seeing when it was still in 10 use. 11 Q: And when did you learn that -- did you 12 learn that there were graves in that area? 13 A: At a later date, yeah. 14 Q: When did you learn that? 15 A: It would have to be after September 5th. 16 Q: After -- 17 A: And all the rest of it, yeah. 18 Q: After the events of September 4th, 5th, 19 and 6th? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And from your father and uncle, did you 22 learn anything else from them about the use of the Park by 23 aboriginal people over time? Or what is now the Park? 24 A: It used to be, like a gathering spot -- 25 Q: Yeah.
721 A: -- I guess you could call it that. 2 Q: And, gathering spot for whom, Mr. George? 3 A: For the people -- all -- all -- Native 4 entities, like, I guess. 5 Q: And would -- did you -- did you learn 6 this from your uncle and your -- your father? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what else did they tell you about 9 this, Mr. George? 10 A: That it was a gathering spot there. 11 People used to come there and gather medicines and like sort 12 of like -- say use it as a clinic. Come there to get 13 medicines and -- for their health. 14 Q: So they would collect herbs and other 15 medicines from the area around the Park and -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- and the other -- this -- what has 18 became the Army Camp? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Is that correct? 21 A: Yeah, sometimes people would come here 22 and they'd pass away and -- 'cause of the difficulty in -- 23 sometimes they'd travel a long distance that they would be 24 buried there as well. 25 Q: And you were told that by your uncle
731 and -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- your father? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, when did you first -- when did the 6 idea of occupying the Provincial Park first occur to you? 7 When did you first think about that? 8 A: When did I think about it? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: It would have to be when -- I guess it 11 was always an idea and it was always -- eventually what 12 happened, I guess. 13 Q: But when you say it was "always an idea", 14 Mr. George, what do you mean by that? 15 A: Well, see that summer prior, I would say. 16 Q: The summer prior to September -- 17 A: The summer of '95, it would be. 18 Q: Sum -- summer of '95? And was -- the 19 occupation of the Park, did it become a -- was it a topic of 20 conversation between you and others in the Army Camp? 21 A: Sometimes it was mentioned, yeah. 22 Q: And who did -- were there any meetings 23 held about occupying the Provincial Park? 24 A: Not that I'm aware of. Not -- not a 25 meeting, I guess, I think. It wasn't a specific topic or a
741 set time, no. 2 Q: But did you attend any gatherings? 3 Perhaps it's more my use of the word "meeting" as -- 4 A: They just -- 5 Q: -- opposed to -- 6 A: Sit -- just sitting around, a few of us 7 and it was mentioned, yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And who else -- who participated 9 in discussions with you about that? 10 A: It's hard to say. It would be Glenn -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: Be my dad. 13 Q: That's Mr. Glenn George and -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- your dad -- 16 A: My dad. 17 Q: -- Abraham George? 18 A: Several of the other guys around that 19 still lived there, yeah. My brothers, Glenn's brother. 20 Q: Okay. And was there a decision made by 21 you as a principle person or -- and Glenn as a principle 22 person to occupy the Park on September 4th, any time prior to 23 September 4th? 24 A: Not -- not on my part, no there wasn't. 25 Q: And I understand that over the summer of
751 1995, that your son, Nicholas Cottrelle, was arrested for -- 2 with respect to some activity at the Provincial Park and you 3 had a discussion with representatives of the Ministry of 4 Natural Resources. Is that correct? Do you recall that? 5 A: Well, it wasn't really at the Provincial 6 Park, it was more or less on the Army base itself. 7 Q: Okay. And can you tell what happened? 8 Your son, Nicholas Cottrelle back in 1995, was sixteen (16), 9 I think. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And can you tell us what this incident 12 was and what discussion you had with representatives of the 13 MNR? 14 A: He was charged and taken away with 15 burning of a -- I guess it would be UXO warning signs that 16 the military had put up. He apparently cut them down and 17 threw them in a fire. 18 Q: And where did he -- where was the fire 19 and where did he cut down the signs? 20 A: It was on the military -- Matheson Drive, 21 it would be. East of Matheson Drive on the shore. 22 Q: On -- on the shore of the lake? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And why was he -- why was he arrested by 25 -- why was Ministry of Natural Resources involved if it was
761 east of Matheson Drive along the shore of the lake? 2 A: Oh they -- there were there and the 3 military and the OPP were there as well. 4 Q: So this was before the military left in 5 July of '95? 6 A: No. It was in the week -- it was after 7 the military left. No, no. No, it was before that, yeah. 8 Before, yeah. Because they're the ones that had him charged. 9 I think he was charged with mischief, I'm not sure. 10 Q: And what was the -- why did they -- what 11 was the discussion with respect to the Park? 12 A: Well, when I got there, I was at home 13 when they -- when this all happened. Some people came and 14 got me and said they took Nicholas and he was charged and so 15 I went down there -- 16 Q: When you say you went down there, you 17 went to where, Mr. George? 18 A: To where the fire was where he was 19 burning -- so-called signs to have been burnt. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: There was some -- they had all moved into 22 the -- like there was several -- there was quite a bit of 23 people who like Campers and OPP's, MNR. It was inside of the 24 gate that would have been right, where would it be, right in 25 here, this location.
771 Q: So you're pointing to on Exhibit P-40 2 that's up on the screen just at the end of Matheson Drive 3 which runs parallel to the eastern border of the -- of the 4 Provincial Park, at the point, north to the lake? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And so it was just on the Park side of 9 the -- of the end of the road? 10 A: Well the fire took place on mil -- on the 11 military side -- 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: -- then you got Matheson Drive and then 14 they were all standing -- by the time I got there, into the 15 Park area. 16 Q: They were in the Park side of -- 17 A: They retreated to the Park area. 18 Q: -- on the beach? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And so what happened? 21 A: Well, I was asking who's in charge here? 22 What he got charged for? Even asking where he went because 23 he was still a minor at the time and I couldn't get no 24 information off of nobody. So, sure I got -- I got mad and I 25 start swearing away and I made a remark of enjoy your Park
781 while you can. 2 Q: And did you say words to the effect it's 3 not going to be here next year? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And why did you say that? 6 A: Probably, certain percentage out of 7 anger. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And it was a true fact that it is our 10 land. 11 Q: And when you said it's not going to be 12 here next year, why did you choose those words? Had some 13 decision been made by you or others about the Park? 14 A: No. 15 Q: No? 16 A: At that time I probably said that on my 17 own. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: They were my words. 20 Q: And did you recognize any of the 21 individuals from the Ministry of Natural Resources who were 22 there? 23 A: No I didn't. 24 Q: Did you recognize any of the Ontario 25 Provincial Police officers who where there?
791 A: Just one I believe because I -- he just 2 got a brush cut or he had a brush cut and I did recognize one 3 OPP officer. 4 Q: You had met him before? 5 A: Yeah, I know him. 6 Q: Okay. And who was that? 7 A: I believe it was his name is Carmen, 8 Carmen Rizet (phonetic) was standing in the shadows there. 9 Q: Okay. So and you ultimately located 10 Nicholas at -- your son, Nicholas Cottrelle that evening, 11 that day? 12 A: My wife did. 13 Q: Okay. Now if I could turn to another 14 topic, was there any discussion by you with others with 15 respect to the Provincial Park and the use of firearms prior 16 to the occupation on September 4th? Or after the occupation? 17 A: Pertaining to the Park? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: As far as firearms go, it was until -- 20 considered to be a peaceful occupation and then still holds 21 as arranged, that there would be no firearms involved. 22 Q: And was there a similar discussion that 23 you're aware of with respect to the Army Camp and the rifle 24 ranges when that took place in '93? 25 A: Yes.
801 Q: And what was the discussion back in '93 2 and then subsequent to that with respect to the occupation of 3 the rifle ranges? 4 A: Well, that was a decision made -- made by 5 the -- us as well as the Board of Elders, I'll call them, 6 that there was not to be no firearms involved. 7 Q: And was that -- did that involve your 8 father, Mr. Abraham George? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And Mr. Clifford George? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And Rose Manning? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And there was an elder, Mr. Ralph George? 15 A: I think Ralph was involved, yes. 16 Q: And, with respect to the period of time, 17 September 4th, 5th and 6th, were there firearms in the Park 18 after the occupation? 19 A: Not by us. 20 Q: And, did you have discussions about 21 firearms with anyone; either people who were occupying the 22 Park or supporters about firearms? 23 A: About the Park? Yeah, there was -- we 24 always said there was to be no firearms, yeah. 25 Q: And were you asked by other people about
811 firearms and bringing firearms to the Park? 2 A: On one (1) occasion I was, yeah. 3 Q: And, what were you asked and what did you 4 respond? 5 A: I was asked -- it was a telephone 6 conversation about -- a supporter asked if he should bring 7 some firearms and I says, No, I would have to -- he would be 8 turned -- he would be turned away. I'd have to ask him, 9 myself, to leave. 10 Q: If he brought some firearms? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And who was that person? Do you recall? 13 A: His name is Doug Plain. 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: His name is Doug Plain. 16 Q: Doug Plain? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Did he come to the -- 19 A: He eventually did, yeah. 20 Q: And did he bring any firearms? 21 A: No, he never. 22 Q: And -- you said -- is it D-U-D? 23 A: Doug. 24 Q: Oh, Doug. Sorry. Now, when did Mr. 25 Plain come to the -- did he come to the -- the Park on
821 September 4th, 5th, or 6th, or after? 2 A: After. 3 Q: After the shooting? 4 A: Yeah. Yeah. 5 Q: Now, there are a number of individuals 6 who I would like to ask you about and whether you know them; 7 and the first is Mr. Les Jewel. You -- taking yourself back 8 to prior to September 4th, 1995, did you know Mr. Les Jewel? 9 A: No, I -- prior to '93, I never knew him. 10 Q: Prior to '95, I'm talking about. 11 A: '95, yeah. I -- I've heard of him; I've 12 seen him around, yeah. 13 Q: And when did you first meet Mr. Les 14 Jewel? 15 A: It's probably -- it was on the ranges. 16 It would have to be in '93. 17 Q: And then in the summer of 1995, did you 18 meet Mr. Les Jewel? Was he at the built-up area of the Army 19 Camp? 20 A: Yeah, he -- he eventually moved right in 21 there. 22 Q: And where did he move into the built-up 23 area of the Army Camp? I'll just -- I'm referring to Exhibit 24 P-41, and which building did he move into? 25 A: First he lived -- it would be Building 6
831 on this wing here, I believe. 2 Q: Yes, it's -- the Building 6 is a building 3 immediately south of the entrance to the -- main entrance of 4 the Army Camp? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yes? And, in Building 6 -- who lived in 7 Building 6? 8 A: Glenn. 9 Q: Your cousin, Glenn George? 10 A: Yeah. Still does. 11 Q: And where was Mr. Les Jewel from? 12 A: I don't know. I still don't know, to 13 tell you the truth. 14 Q: And, how long did Mr. Les Jewel stay at 15 the -- at Stoney Point. 16 A: He eventually moved to another building, 17 it would be Building 55 and that would be this one (1) right 18 here. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: And then shortly after the shooting we 21 were -- when we were all going to Court, that's around that 22 time is when he eventually left. 23 Q: He left? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And Mr. Russell Jewel, when did you first
841 meet Mr. Russell -- I take it you know Mr. Russell Jewel? 2 A: Yes, I do. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: It's his brother, yeah. 5 Q: And he's the brother of Mr. Les Jewel? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And when did you first meet Mr. Russell 8 Jewel? 9 A: I didn't know him as long as I heard of 10 Les. It would have to be -- I don't know if he was around 11 before the shooting, but he was definitely there after. I -- 12 yeah, he was there before September 5th, as well, yeah. 13 Q: And do you know, did he live on the 14 built-up area in August of 1995? 15 A: No, he was staying in the maintenance 16 shed of the Provincial Park, the Park. 17 Q: And when did he move into the maintenance 18 shed of the Provincial Park? That would have been after 19 September 4th? 20 A: Yeah. I think he was immediately moved 21 into the building. He was the first one to live in it. 22 Q: After September 4th? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And I'm going to show you a photograph, 25 an exhibit, Mr. George. It's Exhibit 42-A in these
851 proceedings. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And I know it's a fuzzy picture, but do 6 you recognize that -- the gentleman in Exhibit 42-A? 7 A: It'd have to be my guess, it would be 8 Les. 9 Q: Les or Russ? 10 A: Russ, yeah. 11 Q: Russ? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And we understand that photograph was 14 taken from the maintenance area? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And was Mr. Jewel living with your 17 sister, Tina George -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: At the time? 20 A: At the time, yes. 21 Q: And do you know -- how long did Mr. 22 Russell Jewel stay at the -- at either the -- at the 23 Provincial Park? When did he leave? 24 A: I think he left the same time his brother 25 left.
861 Q: Okay. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Now, Mr. Robert Isaac, when did -- do you 4 know -- did you know back in 1995, Mr. Robert Isaac? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when did you first meet Mr. Robert 7 Isaac? 8 A: It would be '95, '93, '94 -- I believe in 9 '94, around there. 10 Q: And how did you come to meet Mr. Robert 11 Isaac? 12 A: He was part of a group from Walpole 13 Island that came and showed support. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And they have a little -- a club that's 16 called Friendship and Honour Club, and they asked for a 17 building to -- they still have a representative there today. 18 It's like a show of support and to be eyes and ears for -- 19 for their club. 20 Q: And the -- and did Mr. Robert Isaac move 21 onto the rifle ranges back in '94 when he -- when you first 22 met him? 23 A: No, I don't think he did. 24 Q: Okay. And did he move subsequently onto 25 the built-up area of the Army Camp when the built up area was
871 occupied on July 29th, 1995? 2 A: Not immediately. 3 Q: And do you know when he came to the 4 built-up area of the Army Camp? 5 A: He -- he came along later. I don't know 6 exactly when but it was later. 7 Q: And what was your understanding of the 8 Friendship and Honour Club of the -- at Walpole Island? 9 A: What was my understanding? 10 Q: Yes. Yes. 11 A: Of why their -- of their existence -- 12 Q: Yes. And why they were there at the Army 13 Camp? 14 A: They was there to -- like I said, just to 15 show support that -- for the peoples -- for us to be in -- to 16 let us know that there are more people out there that care 17 and they -- they simply wanted to show support us, that's 18 all. 19 Q: Okay. And Mr. Robert Isaac has since 20 passed away, is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And how long did Mr. Robert Isaac stay at 23 the Army Camp, Mr. George? 24 A: About -- I think he moved away a year 25 prior to his death.
881 Q: And -- 2 A: Approximately a year, yeah. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: Approximately a year prior to his death, 5 he -- he left. 6 Q: And can you -- do you -- can you tell us 7 when he died. I -- 8 A: Which year? '90 -- Jeez, I really -- I 9 really couldn't tell you. 10 Q: But it was in the late 90's? 11 A: Yeah, I think so, yeah. 12 Q: And so he was at the Army Camp at -- at 13 Stony Point until 1997 or 1998? 14 A: For a number of years, yeah. 15 Q: Yeah. And Mr. Robert Isaac owned the car 16 that's been called the "OPP WHO?"; is that correct? 17 A: I guess -- I guess you could say he owned 18 it, yeah. 19 Q: But that was -- he used that car? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And was he the one who turned it into the 22 "OPP WHO?" car? 23 A: Him and Dudley. 24 Q: And to turn it into the "OPP WHO?" car 25 they added fins, as I understand it, to the car?
891 A: Yes. 2 Q: And they painted it? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And why did they create the "OPP WHO?" 5 car? 6 A: They used it as a patrol vehicle, for one 7 (1). It's like checking the perimeters and ... 8 Q: Of the -- of the -- at Stony Point? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: It's when -- before the occupation of the 11 -- of the -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- the Park? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And but why was it called "OPP WHO?", do 16 you know? 17 A: I guess it was in kind of like a saying 18 that we don't need their policing. We didn't want nothing to 19 do with -- we didn't want nothing to do with them. 20 Q: Okay. Mr. Sam Isaac, did you know back 21 in the summer of 1995 of Mr. Sam Isaac? 22 A: Sam Isaac? Yes, I did. 23 Q: And where was Mr. -- was he related to 24 Mr. Robert Isaac? 25 A: It's his brother.
901 Q: And where he was from? Walpole as well? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did he move into the built-up area of 4 the Army Camp? 5 A: Eventually he did, yeah. 6 Q: And when did you first meet Mr. Sam 7 Isaac? 8 A: I knew him for quite a while in my 9 lifetime. 10 Q: Oh, so you knew him for a long time? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: And when did Mr. Sam Isaac move into -- 13 into the built-up area of the Army Camp? Was it before or 14 after September of '95? 15 A: I think he was after. 16 Q: After September '95? 17 A: I think so, yeah. 18 Q: And was Mr. Isaac -- did Mr. -- was Mr. 19 Isaac at the Park? Did he attend at the Park during the 20 occupation? 21 A: I don't -- I don't think he was, no. 22 Q: And is Mr. Sam Isaac deceased? 23 A: Yes, he is. 24 Q: And do you know when Mr. Sam Isaac passed 25 away?
911 A: It was after Robert. Maybe 2000, 2001. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: It could have been one (1) of those 4 years. 5 Q: And Mr. Ed Isaac, did you know back in 6 nineteen (19) -- September of 1995 Mr. Ed Isaac? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And was he, as well, a brother of Robert 9 Isaac and Sam Isaac? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And was he younger or older than Robert 12 Isaac and Sam Isaac back in 1995? 13 A: I think he was younger. 14 Q: How old was he, do you think back in 15 1995? 16 A: He's probably -- I think he's 17 approximately my age. 18 Q: Your age? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And did Mr. Ed Isaac -- when did you 21 first meet Mr. Ed Isaac? 22 A: A long time ago. 23 Q: A long time -- 24 A: I knew him all my life -- 25 Q: You've known him all your life? And did
921 he move into the -- move into Stony Point, the built-up area 2 at any time? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No? And was -- did he attend at the Park 5 on September 4th, 5th, or 6th? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Now Mr. Al George. You're familiar with 8 a Mr. Al George back in 1995? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And when did you first meet Mr. Al 11 George? 12 A: I'd have to say the year of '95. 13 Q: In 1995? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And you -- how did you come to meet Mr. 16 Al George? 17 A: He was part of a group that came from 18 Oneida. He was originally there as part of the peacekeepers. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Onadoga (phonetic) peacekeepers. Like I 21 knew of him before the shooting but he was there after the 22 shooting in that capacity. 23 Q: Okay. But before the shooting he 24 attended at -- at the -- the Army Camp -- 25 A: He came and went.
931 Q: Came and went? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: But you met him over the summer of 1995? 4 A: Yep. 5 Q: And why was he there prior to the 6 shooting, do you know? Did you talk -- was he -- why was he 7 at the -- 8 A: He came just to -- just to show support. 9 Q: Okay. And then there's a gentleman, I 10 think it's Larry or Dutch French, back in 1995, were you -- 11 A: I knew of -- I knew of him before that, 12 yeah. 13 Q: And when did you first meet Mr. Dutch 14 French? 15 A: It would be hard to say. It would have 16 to be a number of years with -- prior, but I've never really 17 talked to him or met him in great detail or for long periods 18 of time. 19 Q: And did he attend at the Army Camp in the 20 summer of 1995? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Did he move into the Army Camp? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did Mr. Al George move into the Army 25 Camp?
941 A: No. 2 Q: And why did Mr. Dutch French come to 3 Stony Point in the summer of 1995? 4 A: Again, it was to show support and plus I 5 believe he was -- I think it was Munsey, he was a councillor 6 and he wanted to see what was going on for himself. 7 Q: Okay. And was Mr. Charles -- Mr. French 8 there during the occupation of the Park? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now were you familiar in the summer of 11 1995 with a gentleman Mr. Charles Chucky (phonetic) George? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And where did -- when did you first meet 14 Mr. Charles or Chucky George. Chucky, I take it, is his 15 nickname? 16 A: Yeah. I think it was 1993. He's been -- 17 he came and gone quite often. 18 Q: And where was Mr. -- Mr. Charles George - 19 - where did he reside? Where was he from? 20 A: Oneida. 21 Q: Oneida? 22 A: Yep. 23 Q: And why was he coming to Stony Point 24 whether the rifle ranges or the built-up area? 25 A: Again just to visit and show support.
951 Q: And did Mr. Charles Chucky George move 2 into the built-up area of the Army Camp after July 29th, 3 1995? 4 A: No. 5 Q: No? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And was he in the Park on September 4th, 8 5th, or 6th? 9 A: Yes, he was. 10 Q: And Mr. Wayne Wilson. You -- I think you 11 know him as Mr. Wayne Pine? 12 A: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 13 Q: And Mr. Wayne Wilson and Mr. Wayne Pine 14 are they one (1) and the same person? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And when did you -- you knew him as Mr. 17 Wayne Pine? 18 A: That's all I've heard him being called, 19 so. 20 Q: And when did you meet Mr. Wayne Pine? 21 A: I think it was the summer of '95. He -- 22 I noticed him hanging around there. He'd be around, present. 23 Q: And where was Mr. Wayne Pine from? 24 A: Up Northern Michigan. I forget what the 25 reserve is. It's somewhere around the Petoskey, Michigan.
961 Somewhere around that area. 2 Q: And why was Mr. Wayne Pine -- did you 3 talk to Mr. Pine about why he was there at the Army Camp in 4 the summer of '95? 5 A: No, I've never talked to him as to why he 6 was there. No, I didn't. 7 Q: And, was he friends with someone there or 8 A: He -- he came there with I guess you'd 9 have to call it a delegation from their Reserve to come down 10 and find out what was going on first hand and kind of stayed 11 behind. 12 Q: Oh, he stayed behind after his delegation 13 went back to Michigan? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did he -- so he moved into the 16 built-up area of the Army Camp? 17 A: Yeah, he'd have to have a place to stay. 18 Q: And how long was he there? 19 A: I don't know exactly when he left but it 20 was after September '95. 21 Q: September '95? And did he visit the Park 22 then from September 4th, 5th, and 6th. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And Mr. Isaac Doxtator, I think his 25 nickname is Duck Muck (phonetic) --
971 A: Muck. 2 Q: -- Doxtator. Do you know Mr. Isaac 3 Doxtator? 4 A: Yes, I do. 5 Q: And when did you first meet Mr. Isaac 6 Doxtator? 7 A: Well, I knew of him but I didn't really 8 actually get to meet him until maybe it would be the summer 9 of '93, I'd have to say, yeah. 10 Q: Summer of '93? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: But you had -- where was Mr. Doxtator 13 from? 14 A: Munsey, I believe, yeah. 15 Q: Munsey? And you met him in the summer of 16 1993, where did you meet him, Mr. George? 17 A: He would sometimes be at Dudley's trailer 18 when he stopped by and visit or if we keep coming. 19 Q: And that would be on the rifle ranges? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you said that you had heard of him 22 before you met him in the summer of 1993 and what had you 23 heard about Mr. Isaac Doxtator? 24 A: Well, I -- I heard of him while I was 25 down on -- I heard of him when it was still '93.
981 Q: Oh you heard of him in ninety (90) -- 2 A: I heard of his name being mentioned but 3 it was the same year I actually met him. 4 Q: Oh, I see. So you heard of him after the 5 occupation in -- in May of '93 and then met him at sometime 6 over that summer? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: And did Mr. Isaac Doxtator move into the 9 -- 10 A: Built-up area? 11 Q: -- built-up area of the Army Camp? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And when did he move into the built-up 14 area of the army Camp? 15 A: I really couldn't tell you that one (1). 16 But I knew he did eventually move in. 17 Q: Sometime in -- in August of '95? 18 A: It could have been. It could have been 19 earlier. Like he had -- he had a room there but he never 20 actually -- he still maintained his house in Munsey but -- 21 Q: So -- 22 A: -- he stayed more time than a lot of the 23 other guys. 24 Q: So he would have moved in some time after 25 July 29th, '95?
991 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And where was his room? 3 A: It was in Building 6 as well. 4 Q: And that's -- 5 A: Glenn's residence. 6 Q: Glenn George's residence? And when did 7 Mr. Isaac Doxtator leave or stop living on the Camp? 8 A: After -- it would be after September '95 9 sometimes. 10 Q: And Mr. Gabriel Doxtator, is he related 11 to Mr. Isaac Doxtator? 12 A: I don't know. That's a good question. I 13 really couldn't answer that if they are or not. 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: I couldn't -- I couldn't tell you for 16 sure if they are or not. 17 Q: Okay. And when did you first meet Mr. 18 Gabriel Doxtator? 19 A: Pretty well the same. He came and gone 20 and about '93 seeing him once in a while that's all. 21 Q: And did he ever move into the built-up 22 area of the Army Camp? 23 A: No. 24 Q: No? 25 A: No.
1001 Q: And did he attend in the Park on 2 September 4th, 5th, or 6th? 3 A: I believe so, yeah. 4 Q: And why was he there? In the Park? 5 A: I think he was just visiting, I guess and 6 showing support and -- 7 Q: Okay. And Mr. Bruce Elijah -- do you 8 know Mr. Bruce Elijah? 9 A: Yes, I do now, yeah. 10 Q: And when did you first meet Mr. Bruce 11 Elijah? 12 A: I would have to say really -- he's been 13 involved -- he's been around since pretty well the same 14 thing, about '93, off and on. I've heard of him and I've 15 seen him, but I -- to actually get to meet him, I don't know 16 when that took place. 17 Q: And was -- Mr. Elijah is from Oneida? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And when you -- so, you had heard of him 20 being off and on from 1993. Do you -- do you know if he had 21 visited the rifle ranges and -- back in 1993? 22 A: I don't know if he would have or not. 23 Q: And, when did -- can you help us -- when 24 you first met him? 25 A: Well, I'd have to say it would be before
1011 the shooting; before September '95, but I can't put my finger 2 on it right now. 3 Q: Okay. And, Mr. Bob Antone? Antoine? 4 A: Pretty well the same situation with him, 5 yeah. 6 Q: And he was from Oneida as well? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And had there been discussions prior to 9 September 4th, 1995, with people from Oneida with respect to 10 the Army Camp and getting their assistance with respect to 11 the Army Camp that you're aware of? Or their advice? 12 A: I don't think -- not too much as advice. 13 It was just -- we were -- it was kind of like a peace of mind 14 on our part knowing that there are supporters out there and 15 that they would assist us in any way that -- possible, that 16 they can. 17 Q: And, what kind of assistance do you think 18 that -- or did you hope to receive from the people from 19 Oneida? 20 A: Well, they always did bring, like, 21 rations, like food and that, but sort of like, eyes and ears 22 for other people towards our cause. Like, the more people we 23 get to listen to us, the better because at that time, there 24 was -- we felt like there was nobody listening to us. 25 I mean, the more people we knew, almost sort
1021 of like a peace of mind knowing that there are people willing 2 to back us up, like, with getting our cause out there. 3 Q: So, what? You -- you were looking for 4 and happy to get support from other groups, whether they be 5 First Nation or any other group to have your -- the cause 6 better publicized and better known? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And did you -- we've heard that there was 9 a march to Ottawa and -- and back in 1993 -- the fall of 10 1993. Did you participate in that march to Ottawa? 11 A: No. 12 Q: But you are aware of the march to Ottawa? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And what was your understanding of the 15 purpose of the march to Ottawa? 16 A: Well, it was apparent and pretty obvious 17 that Ottawa wasn't going to come there and listen to -- to 18 us, so it was kind of decided that they would walk all the 19 way to Ottawa to get their attention, so the Federal 20 Government would, hopefully, set down and listen to the 21 people. 22 I mean -- and when they eventually got there, 23 there was nobody, nobody there even to listen to them, even 24 to greet them after walking all that way and, again, it shows 25 nobody was listening.
1031 Q: And, that was -- I take it caused 2 disappointment among the people -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- who marched to Ottawa and -- and their 5 supporters back -- 6 A: Yeah, it was a very big disappointment, 7 yeah. 8 Q: And the -- do you know if Mr. Bruce 9 Elijah attended -- did you see Mr. Bruce Elijah prior to 10 September 4th, 1995 in -- at either the Army Camp or on the 11 beach at the Army Camp, in front of the Army Camp beach? 12 A: If I can recall it? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: If I can -- if I seen him? 15 Q: Yes. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: No, I -- I'd have to say no. 20 Q: Now, I'd like to turn to another area and 21 before doing that, did Mr. -- either Bruce Elijah or Mr. Bob 22 Antone attend at the Provincial Park at either September 4th, 23 September 5th, or September 6th? 24 A: I know for sure the 7th. 25 Q: We'll come back to the 7th, but did
1041 you -- 2 A: I believe it was the 7th. 3 Q: Okay. We'll come back to that later. 4 Now on September 4th, the -- was there a discussion or a 5 decision made to go into and occupy the Park on September 4th 6 that you were part of or knew about? 7 A: No, I wasn't. 8 Q: Had there been discussions prior to 9 September 4th about perhaps entering the Park, casual or 10 otherwise, on Labour Day -- the Labour Day weekend? 11 A: It was probably just an informal 12 discussion, sitting around the fire or around a meal. 13 Q: And what can you remember those 14 discussions about going into the Park? 15 A: About it is, in fact, part of our 16 territory. It is -- it doesn't matter how it was sold or how 17 it was bought, it's still part of our -- Aazhoodena -- it's 18 still part of Aazhoodena, no matter what's on it, because 19 it's -- it was part of un-ceded territory and it still is, 20 today. 21 Q: And did you talk about doing something 22 about that with respect to entering the Park on Labour Day 23 prior to September 4th? 24 A: I don't remember when, but I kind of 25 remember something about after the Campers have left that we
1051 would -- that that might have been the day, but it wasn't, as 2 far as I was concerned it wasn't ever -- to me it was never 3 agreed upon or finalized that that would indeed be their -- 4 the day. 5 Q: Okay. And if I can take you back, I know 6 it's a long time ago, but back to September 4th, 1995, and 7 you were involved in an exchange with some police officers on 8 Matheson Drive during the afternoon of September 4th? Is 9 that correct? Or late afternoon? 10 A: That's correct, yeah. 11 Q: And can you tell us what you were doing 12 on the afternoon of September 4th, just prior to the exchange 13 with the Ontario Provincial Police officers? 14 A: Prior to it? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: We were down, it would be east, along the 17 lake -- along the beach. 18 Q: And if you point, if using -- Exhibit 19 P-40 is on the screen. If you were somewhere along the -- 20 A: No, this -- this is your Park boundary. 21 We were down right -- it would be in this location they were 22 -- 23 Q: So, you were some -- how -- about how far 24 from the Park boundary would you have been along Lake -- the 25 beach along Lake Huron?
1061 A: A quarter mile. 2 Q: Okay. And what were you doing down 3 there? 4 A: I think that's the day we were roasting a 5 -- roasting a pig down there. 6 Q: And do you recall who was with you? 7 A: There were all kinds of people there. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And, had you had anything to drink that 11 afternoon? 12 A: Probably several beers, yeah. 13 Q: And, what -- so you were down on the 14 beach roasting a pig. What happened to get you into contact 15 with the Ontario Provincial Police Officers? 16 A: Well, somebody came down and said that 17 the police was in this area; that would be the end of 18 Matheson Drive. 19 Q: The end of Matheson Drive --. 20 A: Right by the lake. 21 Q: -- where it ends at the lake? 22 A: Yeah, right on the beach. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And that -- I don't know, I can't 25 remember if they wanted to talk to me or not, but I don't
1071 think so. There was just -- somebody said that they were 2 down there and it was kind of strange that they would be 3 there because they were -- since we'd been in the Base, we've 4 never really seen them down there. 5 Q: So you hadn't seen the police officers 6 down there? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And, so, what happened? What did you do? 9 Someone came to get you? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: So -- 12 A: Then me and Stewart come to my car and we 13 went down there. 14 Q: And your car was along the beach? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And you drove along the beach? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And what kind of car did you have on 19 September 4th, 1995? 20 A: I had two (2) of them, but that -- that 21 day I had a dark blue TransAm, a 1980 Pontiac TransAm. 22 Q: And in 1980 the TransAm was a sister car 23 to a Camaro? Is that correct? Camaro was a Chevrolet 24 version? 25 A: Yeah, there was a difference between
1081 Chevy and Pontiac. 2 Q: There were differences, but they were 3 basically the same car? 4 A: Well, this one here, it had TransAm, it 5 had ground effects and you know what TransAm looks -- it's -- 6 Q: So, it's -- 7 A: It's quite a bit more distinct. 8 Q: More distinct than a -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And, so this was a dark blue TransAm? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you and your brother, Stewart George, 13 got into the car and drove towards the police officers at the 14 end of Matheson Drive? 15 A: We didn't drive towards them, we drove 16 down there. 17 Q: Okay. What happened then? 18 A: We stopped in -- in course of Stewart 19 getting out of the -- my car on the passenger side, the door 20 flew open and it hit the cruiser, I think on the front 21 bumper, if I'm not mistaken, and almost hit another, like, an 22 officer. I don't know which one, but I think Stewart was 23 eventually charged for using a vehicle for a weapon or 24 something, which was dropped. 25 Q: And what was -- was there a particular --
1091 was there a -- can you tell us about the door? Anything 2 about the door? 3 A: Yeah, they were -- both latches were worn 4 out because the door pins needed to be changed and I did 5 change the one on the driver's side because my wife drove it 6 more than I did and I had to get around to changing the one 7 on the passenger side yet and that's why the door flew open, 8 because of the latch was defective. 9 Q: Okay. And you said that your brother, 10 Stewart, was charged, but that charge was either dismissed or 11 withdrawn? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: So, you arrive at the end of Matheson 14 Drive. Can you tell us what happened? How many police 15 officers were there? 16 A: I think there was three (3) cruisers; I 17 don't know how many officers. 18 Q: So, were there one (1) or two (2) police 19 officers in each cruiser or -- 20 A: I believe so, yeah. 21 Q: And -- so you arrive. What happened? 22 A: One (1) of the officers told me about a 23 complaint he received in the same area of a Camper having an 24 altercation with a -- a Native. We didn't know which -- we 25 didn't even follow that up and didn't even get a chance to
1101 talk to it -- talk about it because that Camper wasn't there 2 -- wasn't there at the time that -- whoever lodged the 3 complaint. 4 Q: Whoever lodged the complaint wasn't 5 there? 6 A: We didn't even -- we didn't know who. 7 Q: Okay, and so the police officer said that 8 someone had complained about one of -- an Aboriginal person? 9 A: A Native. It was just a verbal attack. 10 Q: And where had that person been? Did they 11 tell you what -- 12 A: It would have been inside the boundaries 13 of the Park. 14 Q: Inside the boundaries of the Park? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And so what then happened? 17 A: We got into an argument as to ownership 18 of Matheson Drive and the officer informed me that it is a 19 public access road. And I says, no, it's not, it's on our 20 territory, it's on our territory, it belongs to us and he 21 didn't -- he tried to argue with me and say no, it's public 22 access and I goes well -- by that time Dave was there, Dave 23 George and I asked Dave, hey Dave, have you still got the 24 chainsaw in your trunk. He says, yes I do. 25 And I told that officer, well these guys don't
1111 want to leave so I said, well you know those trees that's 2 along there, go cut them down. He goes all right. The 3 officers looked at each other. They jumped in their cruiser 4 and they all took off. 5 Q: And the trees that you're referring to 6 were trees along Matheson Drive? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And was that on the part of Matheson 9 Drive that runs north to Lake Huron or the part of Matheson 10 Drive that runs -- 11 A: They were right along this area. It 12 would be the northern perimeters of the Park. 13 Q: The southern perimeter of the Park -- 14 A: Southern, yes, southern perimeter. 15 Q: And the northern perimeter of the Army 16 Camp? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Because Matheson Drive at the time, back 19 in 1995, ran east off Army Camp Road to a point at the 20 eastern boundary of the Provincial Park then north outside 21 that boundary to Lake Huron, is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And so the police officers got into their 24 cruisers and left? 25 A: Yeah.
1121 Q: And do you recall your brother Stewart 2 George as saying to the police officers, do you know how many 3 crossbows you have lifted up on you right now? 4 A: No, I don't. 5 Q: Did anyone in the -- the former -- the 6 army Camp own a crossbow to your knowledge? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And in the back of your car, did you have 9 a rifle in the back of your car that day? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And you've told us you don't own a rifle? 12 A: No, I don't. 13 Q: Then after this incident with the 14 exchange with the police officers, what did you do? 15 A: They left and that was -- that was it. 16 Q: Okay. The police officers left but -- 17 A: We went back to where we were. 18 Q: And at some point did you return to 19 Kettle Point that afternoon? 20 A: Yeah. It was after that because I was 21 suffering from the gout that day and I wanted to go home and 22 rest my foot. It was quite painful. 23 Q: And so -- and how did you get back to 24 Kettle Point? 25 A: Another fellow that was from Thetford and
1131 his girlfriend gave me a ride. 2 Q: And why did you not drive yourself? 3 A: I was intoxicated. 4 Q: And can you tell us when you returned to 5 Kettle Point on the afternoon of September 4th? 6 A: It was in the afternoon and it was still 7 daylight. 8 Q: Still daylight? 9 A: Daylight in the afternoon, yeah. 10 Q: And when did you learn that there had 11 been an entry into the Provincial Park? 12 A: I got home to my home in Kettle Point and 13 my wife had afternoon shift, she's a homemaker and I decided 14 to call my mom to see how they were doing and she answered 15 the phone and said that Hamster's gone down to the Park and 16 that they're going into the Park. 17 Q: So Hamster's your father, Abraham George? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: So your mother told you that your father 20 and others had gone into the Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what did you do? 23 A: I phoned my wife at work. 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: Asked her if she could get a stand-in and
1141 I told her why and she did. She came and gave me a ride down 2 to the Park. 3 Q: And -- and so how did you get to the 4 Park? Did you go to the Park through Stoney Point -- through 5 the main gate at Stoney Point or did you drive down Army Camp 6 Road? How did you -- 7 A: We went -- 8 Q: -- get -- 9 A: -- down 21. 10 Q: 21? And then -- but did you then proceed 11 to the Park down Highway -- Army Camp Road or -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- did you go through the -- 14 A: I think we were on the inside and we went 15 to at the time the maintenance road was still open. 16 Q: Okay, so you went through -- 17 A: No, actually we -- I came in over here, 18 where they initially cut the gate. 19 Q: And so the gate was open there? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And so you entered the Army Camp, the 22 built up area of the Army Camp through the main gate and 23 travelled north on the road that runs parallel to Army Camp 24 Road, went east on Matheson and entered the Park on the east 25 entrance where the gate was open?
1151 A: Yes. 2 Q: And was your wife, Gina George, with you 3 then still? 4 A: Yes, she was driving. 5 Q: And the -- had you had any other drinks 6 when you were back at your house? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And what happened? You went into the 9 east gate; where did your wife, Gina, drive you? 10 A: Maybe a bigger map would be -- 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: Maybe this one (1) here would be more 13 helpful. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: So we're going to -- we've got up on the 18 screen a copy of the Provincial Park which you've actually -- 19 we've marked as Exhibit 80 -- 20 THE REGISTRAR: 87. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: 87. So can you show us on the "Welcome 24 to Ipperwash" map, Exhibit 87, that's up on the screen, where 25 you went after you went into the Park.
1161 A: I -- we went through there, which was 2 kind of extreme because they moved cement blocks in, but we 3 went all the way through here, past the bridge, around this 4 little bend, into this area. 5 Q: And that's the area north of the Park 6 store? 7 A: It would be -- no, your Park store is in 8 the wrong spot there. It should have been over here. 9 Q: Okay. The Park store is more to the 10 west -- 11 A: Yeah. It would be -- I would have been 12 east of it. 13 Q: So you were east of the Park store? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And were you near the gatehouse? 16 A: Yeah. The -- I would have been right 17 here. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: It was right here at this intersection. 20 Q: And what happened then? Can you mark on 21 -- I don't know if I've marked any -- on Exhibit 87, do we 22 have any numbers on there yet? 23 THE REGISTRAR: We're up to Number 5. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We're up to Number 5. 25
1171 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Can you mark number -- at Number 6 where 3 you entered the Park, Mr. George? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And you mentioned something about cement 8 blocks? Were cement blocks moved from -- 9 A: The entrance. The MNR had that blocked 10 off, with at least three (3) or four (4) of those big, huge 11 cement heavy blocks but they moved them. 12 Q: And when you say "they moved them", the 13 occupiers had moved them? 14 A: No, the MNR did. 15 Q: And how do you know the MNR moved them? 16 A: We didn't have no ways of moving them. 17 'Cause they -- they'd been there all that summer and come 18 that weekend they were moved. 19 Q: They were moved? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: So you don't know how they came to be 22 moved but -- 23 A: No, I don't. 24 Q: -- they weren't moved by your people? 25 A: No.
1181 Q: Okay. So you entered the gate there and 2 can you mark on Exhibit 87 where you stopped with the next 3 number, would be Number 7. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And who was at that area where you 8 stopped? 9 A: It was quite a bit of people that -- at 10 this time was getting on dark and my dad was there. And I'd 11 have to say three (3) OPP cars -- 12 Q: Yes 13 A: Mostly young guys and my brothers and the 14 OPP were talking to my dad, I believe and he didn't want them 15 in there. He didn't want to talk to them. He asked me to 16 ask them to leave and I got them to leave. 17 Q: So, your father, Abraham George, asked 18 you to ask the police officers to leave the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And, so, what did you do? 21 A: I asked them to leave. 22 Q: And what then happened? 23 A: They didn't do nothing, so --. 24 Q: What did you do? 25 A: -- I issued a twenty (20) second
1191 countdown for them to leave. 2 Q: And did you have anything in your hand? 3 A: Yes, I had a club. 4 Q: And what -- where did this club come 5 from? 6 A: It was a part of a crutch. -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: -- a wooden crutch on one (1) side? 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: It was only maybe -- not even an inch 11 around. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: It was a laminated crutch -- wooden 14 crutch. 15 Q: And where did -- where did you get it? 16 Where did you pick it up that day? 17 A: I don't know. I think it was in the back 18 of my -- in my red car, because I had the Nova at that time. 19 Q: Okay, and the -- so, did you -- when did 20 you pick up the crutch from your car? When you first arrived 21 or after you had a discussion? 22 A: No, after they refused to leave. 23 Q: So, you then went back to your car, 24 picked up the crutch? 25 A: Yeah.
1201 Q: And then did what? 2 A: Issued -- said to the officers, You've 3 got twenty (20) seconds to leave. 4 Q: And what did the officers say to you? 5 A: Actually, they didn't say nothing. 6 Q: So -- 7 A: They didn't do nothing, they just stood 8 around there and then in the course of me coming down all of 9 our guys that was in there, they kind of moved in closer and 10 they kind of made -- looked like the OPPs were getting kind 11 of tense and when I got down to one (1), they didn't leave so 12 I smashed the back window in. Everybody started hollering 13 and they got out. 14 Q: Okay, and so that -- the -- can you tell 15 us how many police officers were there in the --? 16 A: I'd have to say six (6) or seven (7). 17 Around there. 18 Q: And how many occupiers were around you? 19 A: At that time, maybe ten (10) or fifteen 20 (15); fifteen (15) at the most. 21 Q: And, did you observe anyone throwing 22 firecrackers at the police officers? 23 A: No, I didn't. 24 Q: And at this stage of the afternoon or 25 early evening, how many -- approximately how many beers had
1211 you consumed that day? 2 A: How many? I'd have to say, maybe twenty 3 (20). 4 Q: And were you still intoxicated at this 5 stage? 6 A: Not as much, but a bit, yeah. 7 Q: A bit? And then the police officers 8 left. Did they leave through the main entrance that's marked 9 on Exhibit 87? 10 A: They left through this entrance. 11 Q: Okay. And what did you do after the 12 police officers left the Park on the evening of September 13 4th? 14 A: Stayed there for a while. 15 Q: And what did you do when you were there? 16 A: We more or less kept our eyes open 17 because we figured -- we kind of thought maybe they would be 18 coming back. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: And so we hung around there until late 21 and I went, I believe, to Building 37 to sleep. 22 Q: And did -- and your wife, Gina George, 23 did she stay or go back after she dropped you off? 24 A: She -- she stayed because her shift was 25 over at 12:00.
1221 Q: Okay. And, so, you slept overnight in 2 Building 37 in the built-up area? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. And during the evening of 5 September 4th when you were at the Army Camp, did you see any 6 firearms in the possession of any of the Occupiers? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And did anyone build any fires in the 9 Park the evening of September 4th that you saw? 10 A: On September 4th? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: There probably was one (1), yeah. 13 Q: And during the evening of -- overnight on 14 September 4th, did you hear any -- the sound of firearms 15 while you were up in the built-up area? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you hear any sound of firearms when 18 you were in the Provincial Park? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And now, on September 5th, the -- what 21 did you do on September 5th? Did you go back to the Park? 22 A: Yeah, that's the day when I think it was 23 -- we were just sitting round there having like a picnic the 24 same time in this area -- 25 Q: In the area --
1231 A: The store -- the store would have been 2 there. It was in this area -- 3 Q: Just -- just to the east of the Park 4 store? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: Because there was a grassy area and it 8 was -- 9 Q: There was a grassy area just to the east 10 of the Park store, and I think we've seen that in -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- other photos. But -- so you had a 13 picnic there that day? 14 A: For a couple of days, yeah. 15 Q: And on September 5th, did you observe any 16 police officers on Army Camp Road or East Parkway Drive? 17 A: Probably to drive by or maybe -- I can't 18 remember exactly what day it was or when they started having 19 like -- it could have been East Parkway Drive at that 20 intersection. 21 Q: At the intersection of Army Camp Road and 22 East Parkway? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Did they -- you said at some point, what 25 happened? I didn't hear you, Mr. George?
1241 A: They set up more or less like -- I don't 2 think it was a checkpoint right away, but it was -- we 3 thought it was just there to keep an eye on us, I believe. 4 Q: There were cruisers parked on the side of 5 the road? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. One (1) cruiser, two (2) cruisers 8 or did it depend on -- 9 A: It -- 10 Q: -- changed? 11 A: It differed, changed. One (1) sometimes 12 two (2). 13 Q: And did you observe a helicopter on 14 September 5th? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Can you describe that to us? 17 A: I was standing in this area right here. 18 That would have been a parking lot. And these are a couple 19 of rows of trees along here. And they came down, because the 20 picnic was here with the tables. 21 It would have been right in this area they 22 came so low that it blew everything right off the picnic 23 tables. And the dust -- it created a little dust on there. 24 Q: And was that on September 5th or 25 September 6th or can you remember which day?
1251 A: No, I can't remember what day exactly it 2 was. It was 5th or 6th. 3 Q: And the -- on September 5th, were the -- 4 did you take any steps or did the occupiers take any steps to 5 block off the entrances to the Park along Army Camp Road? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And can you tell us what you did. 8 A: We used -- along the most northerly, it 9 was just a dumpster and I think they used -- we used an old 10 car and some other debris here as well. 11 Q: At the entrance -- 12 A: At that time, yeah. 13 Q: At the entrance to -- the main entrance 14 into -- 15 A: Yeah -- 16 Q: -- the Park? 17 A: -- that would have been the main entrance 18 to the Park, that one. 19 Q: And on Matheson Drive as well? 20 A: No that one, it was blocked off for -- 21 Q: You're not pointing at Matheson -- 22 Matheson Drive is -- not really on this map. It runs 23 along -- 24 A: Over here. 25 Q: -- the border, yes.
1261 A: Yeah, I believe they did -- we did, too, 2 yeah. 3 Q: I'm just going to show you a -- briefly a 4 video of -- this is a video taken, we're instructed by the 5 Ontario Provincial Police, on September 5th. And it's four 6 (4) minutes long and I propose to show it and then mark it as 7 the next exhibit. It would be Exhibit 89. 8 THE REGISTRAR: Eighty-nine (89), P-89. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We should 13 probably take our lunch break after the video? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's not going to 19 co-operate. I did this at work last night. It was fine. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll mark this video as 24 the next exhibit. It would Exhibit 89, I believe. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-89.
1271 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Eighty-nine (89), yes, 2 sir. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-89: Copy of Tape FOI#06 Part 1, 5 Aerial Footage, Project 6 Maple-sept 5,1995, DVD format, 7 Copied date: 2004/04/23. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Mr. George, on the left-hand side of the 11 screen, we don't have a counter, but it's -- you'll see two 12 (2) white buildings in the centre of the screen. One (1) is 13 the pump house I understand and one (1) is the water 14 treatment facility? 15 A: Well this is actually the pump house here 16 where the water is actually treated and it's pumped into 17 this. It's just reservoir -- 18 Q: Reservoir? 19 A: Because it's not a filtration. It's -- 20 water is pumped in here and is allowed for sediment to settle 21 before it's pumped to the water tower. 22 Q: And the water tower is at -- at the -- 23 A: The built-up area. 24 Q: -- in the built-area? 25 A: Yeah.
1281 Q: And so on this video, the smaller 2 building is the pump house, the larger area is the water --is 3 the reservoir and on the left we can see what appears to be a 4 creek leading down to the Lake Huron? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that's the creek you referred us to 7 before -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- earlier in your testimony? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And it was on the west bank of that creek 12 that you told us the large tree was -- that you had been told 13 about? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And we now see in this frame there's the 16 entrance to the parking -- the main entrance to the Park that 17 would go by the Park gate house, is that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And there appear to be two (2) -- they 20 look like dumpsters at the entrance to the Park? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And they were placed there by the 23 occupiers on September 5th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you participate in that, Mr.
1291 George? 2 A: No, not that one or the Matheson Drive 3 one. 4 Q: In this frame and unfortunately we don't 5 have a counter, but do you see on the right-hand side of the 6 screen that's the Park store? Is that correct? The L shaped 7 building. 8 A: This building, yeah. 9 Q: An L shaped building, and... 10 11 (VIDEO PLAYING) 12 13 Q: There's a road that leads into the Park 14 store from one (1) of the roads that come from the main 15 entrance? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the gatehouse would be on the lower 18 left-hand side of this particular -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. Over in this area. 20 Q: It would be off this picture? 21 A: Yeah. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Unfortunately, 23 Commissioner, we just missed the gatehouse in this video. 24 25 (VIDEO PLAYING)
1301 Q: Now, that's another shot of the main 2 entrance blocked off with the gates. The gates, I take it, 3 were gates that were permanent gates that the Ministry of 4 Natural Resources had with the Park? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And behind the two (2) gates are the 7 dumpsters that were placed by the occupiers? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And on the screen now is the -- the 10 maintenance building and the maintenance area? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: The maintenance is -- has a white roof, 13 brown sidewalls and two (2) large garage doors leading into 14 it; is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 17 (VIDEO PLAYING) 18 19 A: That was the gatehouse here. 20 Q: Yeah, I was just going to stop it at 21 that. 22 23 (VIDEO PLAYING) 24 25 Q: So, in this scene, although it's very
1311 brief, the gatehouse is on the upper part of the -- the -- 2 the screen and it's a brown building as well? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I'm not quite certain -- there's audio on 5 this Commissioner, but it's really just the -- you can only 6 hear the helicopter, you can't make out what the people say 7 and I don't know why we've lost it, but that's what it -- 8 there is when this is played on a different machine. 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 Q: The road, Mr. George, that runs at the 13 top, past the maintenance building that's in this frame in 14 the top centre part, it's -- the road beyond the maintenance 15 yard has been closed off; is that correct? 16 A: Yes, it's a fence -- chain link fence 17 right in this area. 18 Q: And it so -- and it's closed off running 19 north to -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- just the road -- 22 A: To the pump -- 23 Q: by the -- the pump house? 24 A: Yes. 25
1321 (VIDEO PLAYING) 2 3 Q: And on the screen, right now, it's -- 4 shows there's a 12:87 a.m. I'm not quite certain why that's 5 there. But at any rate, that's the entrance. There's a 6 truck that's on the sandy parking lot at the intersection of 7 Army Camp Road and East Parkway. Army Camp Road is on the 8 upper right-hand side; is that correct? 9 A: Yeah, here, yeah. 10 Q: And East Parkway is on the bottom right- 11 hand side. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And the truck is moving into what we've 14 been referring to as the sandy parking lot? 15 A: Yes. 16 17 (VIDEO PLAYING) 18 19 Q: And do you know if these individuals that 20 are in the scene in front of the entrance, the main entrance 21 that's blocked off, can you recognize any of those? 22 A: These ones? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: No, I don't. 25 Q: Those three (3) individuals. Thanks,
1331 thank you. 2 3 (VIDEO PLAYING) 4 5 6 Q: That's the end of the video. Perhaps it 7 would, as you suggested, Commissioner, be a good time to 8 break for lunch, until 2:05? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 2:05? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I mean, no -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 2:20. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2:20, sorry. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 2:20. Thank 14 you. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands adjourned 16 until 2:20. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 1:08 p.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 2:22 p.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now resumed, 22 please be seated. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1341 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Commissioner, thank you. We were -- just 3 before lunch, Mr. George, we looked at the video and you had 4 told us that you were in the Park on September 5th, and you 5 had a picnic. 6 Did you have any exchanges, yourself 7 personally, with any Ontario Provincial Police officers on 8 September 5th? 9 A: I don't know if it was the 5th or the 10 6th, but I did talk very briefly with an officer. 11 Q: And can you tell us about that? 12 A: Well, I didn't know who he was at the 13 time, but I -- somewhere along the line I heard his name. 14 But I didn't know him -- 15 Q: Okay. And -- 16 A: -- to look at him, but it was along the 17 fence line above the sandy parking lot. 18 Q: Behind you is a copy of Exhibit P-88 19 which is the Stan Thompson drawing of the intersection and 20 can you point out on P-88 where you spoke to the police 21 officer? 22 A: Somewhere in this area here. 23 Q: And you're pointing to an area just north 24 of the turnstile? 25 A: Yes.
1351 Q: Along the fence line? Can you tell me 2 what happened? How did this come about? 3 A: Well, I pulled up there and there was, I 4 think it was Glenn and that Scott guy and several others were 5 there and they say, I don't know -- who's that standing at 6 the fence line. He said, oh, he's like, a guy called Mark 7 Wright and another officer was a woman. 8 Q: And you pulled up and I take it you 9 pulled up into the parking area on the Park side of the 10 fence? 11 A: Yes, we where Glenn and them were 12 sitting, that was over to this area more. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: East of the store. 15 Q: They were sitting in the grassy area, 16 east of -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- the store? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you pulled up in front, near where 21 they were sitting? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And so they pointed out -- did you see 24 when you pulled up, the two (2) individuals at the fence 25 line?
1361 A: Yes. 2 Q: And were they dressed -- were they in 3 uniform? 4 A: The male was in plain clothes. 5 Q: And the woman -- female officer? 6 A: I believe she was in uniform. 7 Q: Okay. And do you recall what type of 8 uniform she had on? 9 A: Standard OPP -- 10 Q: Uniform? 11 A: -- blue uniform, yeah. 12 Q: And so Glenn George, and who else was -- 13 Scott -- Scott was -- 14 A: Scott was there, yeah. 15 Q: -- Scott Ewart? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Ewart, E-W-A-R-T? 18 A: Something like that, yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And who else? 20 A: A couple of others, I don't recall. 21 Q: So Glenn pointed out the police officer 22 -- two (2) police officers and referred to one as Mark 23 Wright? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what -- what -- after he's pointed
1371 out that one (1) of the police officers was Mark Wright, what 2 happened? 3 A: I just asked him who -- who they were, 4 why were they here and said something, I believe, it's -- he 5 wants to talk to somebody. 6 Q: Glenn -- Glenn George told you that the 7 police officer wanted to talk to someone? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And he goes, You go talk. I don't want 11 to talk to him. I don't want to talk to no police officers. 12 Q: So, Glenn said that he didn't want to -- 13 Glenn George said -- 14 A: No, he didn't want to. He asked me if I 15 wanted to go talk to them; I said, I don't want to talk to 16 them. So, I ended up going over anyways just to tell them to 17 politely "F" off. 18 Q: And so you went over to the fence line 19 and did the -- either of the two (2) officers say anything to 20 you? 21 A: They asked who was in charge, I believe, 22 and that was pretty well it. That was pretty well the 23 conversation. 24 Q: They asked you who was in charge and you 25 told them to leave?
1381 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Using that -- those -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And, so, did they leave? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And, you can't recall if that happened on 7 the afternoon of September 5th or September 6th? 8 A: It was either one (1) of the days. 9 Q: Okay. And, back on September 5th, did 10 you spend the whole day in the Park or what did you do? 11 A: Both days I was coming and going all day 12 long, yeah. 13 Q: And did you observe at some point on 14 September 5th, Marlin Simon, Dudley George and Robert Isaac 15 speaking with some OPP officers along the fence line? 16 A: I can't remember if I actually seen them, 17 but I heard later. I know that -- what was said -- 18 Q: The -- 19 A: -- for that conversation. 20 Q: You don't know of you saw -- you -- you 21 can't recall if you were there during the discussion, but you 22 were told later about it? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And, what were you told about -- did you 25 -- who told you? Dudley George told you?
1391 A: I believe one (1) of them; either him or 2 Marlin. 3 Q: And what did Dudley George tell you? Or 4 Marlin Simon tell you? 5 A: About the officers telling them to step 6 over to that side of the fence and welcome -- they're going 7 to welcome them to Canada and I think Marlin said he threw 8 sand in one (1) of their face and that's when -- I don't know 9 which officer it was, told Dudley he was going to be first. 10 Q: Okay, and that day, there was an incident 11 with the picnic tables. Were you in the Park when the 12 incident with the picnic tables took place? 13 A: No, I wasn't. 14 Q: And, when you were -- left the Park on 15 September 5th, were there picnic tables in the sandy parking 16 lot outside the Park? 17 A: I believe there was, yeah. 18 Q: And do you recall them being there when 19 you -- when you left? Were they -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Did you see people taking -- 22 A: That would be, yeah, the 5th. They were 23 still there, yeah. 24 Q: And -- but were you there when there was 25 an incident with the police cruiser?
1401 A: No, I wasn't. 2 Q: And why were these picnic tables put out 3 in the sandy parking lot on September 5th? 4 A: It was part of the -- part of the Park. 5 Q: And why do you say it was part of the 6 Park? 7 A: It's -- geographically speaking, it is. 8 Q: And why do you say that? 9 A: It's -- it's -- it doesn't run a straight 10 line to the lake, it jogs eastward in towards the boundaries 11 of our territory. 12 Q: And the -- so, is it your belief that the 13 -- the line should run parallel to Army Camp Road, directly 14 north to the lake? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And prior to September 4th, 1995 -- 17 A: You're talking of this fence line here 18 and it continues again over there. 19 Q: And you're referring to Exhibit -- 20 A: The sandy area's here. 21 Q: -- P-88 and showing the fence line on the 22 west side of -- east side of Army Camp Road that -- and 23 projecting it north along the fence line on the cottages on - 24 - eastern boundary of the cottages on the west side of the 25 sandy parking lot north of East -- East -- East Parkway
1411 Drive? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And prior to September -- when was -- 4 when did you first consider the sandy parking lot to be part 5 of the -- of your territory? When did you first think about 6 that? 7 A: Probably before we even went into the 8 Park. 9 Q: And did you communicate that to any 10 government officials whether the Ministry of the National 11 Resources or anyone -- the Ontario Provincial Police or 12 anyone on behalf of the provincial government? 13 A: No, I never. 14 Q: Did you ever tell anybody from the 15 federal government about that? 16 A: No. There was nobody from the federal 17 government there at the time. 18 Q: Did you write any letters? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And on September 5th did you observe any 21 firearms in the Park? 22 A: No, I never. 23 Q: Did you hear any firecrackers in the 24 Park? 25 A: No.
1421 Q: And where did you sleep the evening of 2 September 5th? 3 A: In building 37. 4 Q: Back -- back you went up to building 37? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And on October -- excuse me, on September 7 6th, can you tell us what the first thing that you can 8 remember about September 6th? 9 A: Robert Isaac, he woke me up, pounding on 10 the door so I got up and he said that the OPP are coming into 11 the Park. And I asked him who was down there. And I think 12 he just said it was just Dudley and I think it was J.T. were 13 the only ones down there. 14 Q: And J.T. was -- is J.T. Cousins? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And J.T. Cousins was I believe fourteen 17 (14) in 1995? 18 A: I wouldn't know exactly how old he was. 19 Q: But he was a teenager? 20 A: Yep. 21 Q: Okay. And what else did he say? Did he 22 say anything else? 23 A: No I just told him I'll be right down 24 there. He went around, I don't know where he went after that 25 but he was there when I got down there again.
1431 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: He -- He must have left from there and he 3 went back down to the Park, because he was there when I 4 arrived there. 5 Q: So when you arrived what was happening? 6 A: There was no picnic tables or no 7 dumpsters and no police. They cleared that access road of 8 the tables and that. And we asked them where they took them 9 and he looked like -- well they took them down East Parkway 10 Drive but we didn't know at that time where they took them. 11 Q: Okay. And you say, was there a dumpster 12 out in the sandy parking lot area, the access road? 13 A: I think they got the dumpsters from the 14 other entrance way, the main entrance. 15 Q: The main entrance? The dumpsters were 16 moved from there that day? 17 A: That one I believe is -- they were, yeah. 18 Q: So that we saw on the Exhibit P-89, the 19 main entrance, there was a gate and then two (2) dumpsters 20 behind it. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Would those two (2) dumpsters removed? 23 A: I believe they took those that morning 24 too. 25 Q: And did you replace those dumpsters?
1441 Because I believe there's a -- 2 A: That was September 6th. 3 Q: Yeah. But were they replaced on 4 September 6th? 5 A: I don't think so. But we had one (1) at 6 the turnstile entrance, so it was more inside of the Park. 7 That was left behind. 8 Q: At the -- at the -- on Exhibit P-88, the 9 gate -- there's a turnstile and then there's a gate just 10 south of that -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- and there was a dumpster there? 13 A: Yeah, there was. In this area behind it. 14 Q: Okay. And so the picnic tables were put 15 out the day before because the sandy parking lot was a part 16 of the Park, you told us, and was there any other reason? 17 A: Well, like I said we considered it part 18 of our territory. 19 Q: And was there any other reason for 20 putting them out in the access -- in the sandy parking lot? 21 A: Not on my part, no. 22 Q: No? And after you arrived on the morning 23 of September 6th, did you remain in the Park during the 24 morning? 25 A: Pretty well much that day, yeah.
1451 Q: And did you observe any Ontario 2 Provincial Police officers in and around the Park? 3 A: Yeah. They later at some point, 4 established their roadblock again on this corner. 5 Q: Did they put a roadblock or just simply 6 park cruisers? 7 A: Just parked off the side on the corner 8 there. Traffic was allowed back and forth at that time. 9 Q: So the cruiser just parked on the side of 10 the road -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Was there one (1) cruiser or two (2) 13 cruisers? 14 A: It changed during the day. 15 Q: So -- 16 A: Sometimes one (1), sometimes two (2). 17 Q: Okay. And -- but they were parked on the 18 -- on the edge of the road on the west side of Army Camp 19 Road? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And they didn't come into the sandy 22 parking lot? 23 A: Not while I was there, no. 24 Q: Not while you were there. 25 A: No.
1461 Q: And did you observe any other activity by 2 the Ontario Provincial Police during the day on September 3 6th? 4 A: You -- 5 Q: In and around the sandy parking lot? 6 A: Not in around there, no. That's, oh, I 7 think it was shortly after we got there, there was a cottage, 8 it's a white brick cottage in this area. 9 Q: And you're pointing to the north part of 10 Exhibit P-88 in the -- the area north of the first driveway 11 off the sandy parking lot, there's a big white cottage there? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: We observed OPP helping them move a boat. 15 That boat was on a trailer, like pleasure craft, sort of. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And they later came back and they were 18 helping them carry out a big screen TV. 19 Q: Out of the cottage? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what, if anything, did you take from 22 that? 23 A: Well, we knew they weren't stealing it, I 24 don't think they were anyways, and we kind of got the feeling 25 that they were evacuating residents of the cottages and we
1471 felt that if something was going to happen soon. That was 2 the feeling we got from that. 3 Q: From seeing them, the officers -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- assisting the cottager? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the -- did you observe any road 8 blocks on Army Camp Road during the day on September 6th? 9 A: On my way back down there later in that - 10 - in the day I observed one (1), yeah. 11 Q: And where was that road block? 12 A: It was roughly half way between -- it was 13 on Army Camp Road roughly half way between where we were and 14 Highway 21. 15 Q: And was it near -- there's a trailer park 16 along Army Camp Road? 17 A: In that area, yeah. 18 Q: It was in the area of the trailer park? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And did you observe a -- an Ontario 21 Provincial Police boat in the water that day, on September 22 6th. 23 A: They were what? 24 Q: An Ontario Police -- Provincial Police 25 boat in the water?
1481 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And can you tell us where the boat was 3 and why you believe it's a Ontario Provincial Police boat? 4 A: Well, we see -- well we know the boat, it 5 travelled up and down several times, it even gets a refit one 6 (1) time it knocked its prop off of it. 7 But that day we -- it was up in here -- this 8 area here on the lake -- 9 Q: It was north of the -- the -- where the 10 access road went down to the beach it -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- was north out in the lake? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And how long had it been there? Had it 15 been there on the 5th? 16 A: I don't recall seeing it in the 5th, but 17 the 6th, I recall, because it was real rough. It was a real 18 strong north-west wind and we were saying, you'd have to be 19 an idiot to be out in the lake for any reason, 'cause the 20 waters were rough. 21 Q: It was very rough that day? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And the -- when you were in the Park on 24 September 6th, how many people were there, roughly? 25 A: Bit different during the day, like, the
1491 height of the day there was a little bit more but it dwindled 2 down to probably about twenty (20). 3 Q: Twenty (20) at the end of the day? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: But during the day were there -- what was 6 the height, do you think, when you were there? 7 A: Thirty (30), forty (40) maybe. 8 Q: And did that include men, women and 9 children? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And -- 12 A: Visitors. 13 Q: Visitors? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Did you observe people with mirrors in 16 the Park on September the 6th? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And who had mirrors? 19 A: My two (2) daughters and wife. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: My two (2) daughters and my wife. 22 Q: And what were they doing with the 23 mirrors? 24 A: Shining them at the OPP roadblock. 25 Q: And -- and by "the roadblock" you mean
1501 the car -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- that was parked? That car that was 4 parked, did they stop people? They didn't -- I think you 5 said the traffic was moving freely? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Were they questioning people? Stopping 8 cars and questioning them when they were -- 9 A: I think a few they did, yeah. 10 Q: A few they did? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: But generally they didn't? 13 A: Well, it looked like to us they were 14 stopping Native people and -- because we'd see Native people, 15 like my wife, she went along that road, coming back she got 16 stopped a couple of times and they asked her the same 17 questions every time. 18 Q: Along East Parkway or along Army Camp 19 Road? 20 A: East Parkway going up towards the Camp. 21 Q: So, your wife had been stopped on 22 September 6th by the -- 23 A: I believe it was September 6th, yeah. 24 Q: And, was there any discussion about the 25 use of alcohol on -- in the Park on September 6th?
1511 A: It was about the same time we seen them 2 evacuate that it was understood that there would be no 3 consumption. 4 Q: And who made that decision and why? 5 A: Probably a few of us; I, for one (1). 6 Q: And why did you make that decision? 7 A: If something was going to happen we 8 wanted to all have clear heads so we'd have a better memory. 9 Q: Okay. And did you see any guns or 10 firearms in the Park on September 6th? 11 A: No, I never. 12 Q: And did you have a -- a stick or a 13 baseball bat on the afternoon of September 6th or early 14 evening of September 6th? 15 A: The same piece of crutch I had -- 16 Q: The same crutch -- 17 A: -- previous, yeah. 18 Q: And, did you observe on September 6th, 19 the people collecting pieces of wood or stones? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And when did that happen? 22 A: I'd say probably about when it was 23 starting to get dark. 24 Q: And why did that happen? 25 A: Anticipated weapons for in case something
1521 happened, because that's all we had. 2 Q: And did you go into the gatehouse the 3 evening of September the 6th? 4 A: No, I never. 5 Q: Do you know if anyone did? 6 A: At that time I never, but the videos I've 7 seen, there apparently was. 8 Q: And you've seen a video of the -- the 9 video of the security camera in the -- in the gatehouse? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And were you able to recognize any of the 12 individuals in that -- that video? 13 A: No, there were -- appear -- poor quality. 14 I couldn't really recognize any of them. 15 Q: And ... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Could I just have a 20 moment, Commissioner, please? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I'd like to 23 just to make -- identify what the video that Mr. George is 24 talking about that he viewed and I'm going to get it and play 25 it so that Mr. George can tell us if it's the video that he
1531 was referring to. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This video is 3 already an exhibit? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's not yet. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not? But we've 6 seen it, haven't we? Have we not seen -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Not -- no I don't -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not this one 9 (1)? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I was trying to find -- I 11 don't think it's been -- this has not been shown. And while 12 we're waiting for that... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, the clip 17 that I'm going to play is from September 6th, 1995, it's a 18 gatehouse video provided by the Ontario Provincial Police. 19 The time is 19:04 to 19:05. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Is this the video that you looked at, Mr. 25 George?
1541 A: Yes. 2 Q: And can you identify the gentleman that's 3 in the frame -- the window frame at 19:04:33? 4 A: No I can't. 5 6 (VIDEO PLAYING) 7 8 Q: And were you able to identify -- when you 9 looked at this video before, were you able to identify any of 10 the individuals in the video? 11 A: I don't think so. 12 Q: And have you had the opportunity to look 13 at the fuller -- another video that -- that this was 14 extracted from? 15 A: From? 16 Q: From the gatehouse video. Have you 17 looked at more of the gatehouse videos or just this one (1)? 18 A: Yes. The part where it ended in a fire 19 that's all. I'm never seen that. Actually I -- I've never 20 ever been in that building. I really couldn't tell you if 21 that's the building or not. 22 Q: Oh, so you were never in the gatehouse? 23 A: No, I wasn't. 24 Q: Perhaps we could mark this as the next 25 exhibit. It would be P-90 and we'll mark it 'I' for
1551 identification because we have -- this witness can't identify 2 anyone but we'll -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P90-I 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P90-I: OPP Gatehouse Video Sept 06/95, 8 19:04-19:05 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-90, marked 'I' 11 for identification. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Mr. George, was there any discussion 15 among the group that you were party to, about going into the 16 gatehouse or using the gatehouse for any purpose? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Not that you're aware of? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And the gatehouse was burned down on the 21 morning of September 7th at the same time the Park store was? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, the evening of September 5th, the 24 morning of September 6th, did you hear any -- you slept up in 25 the -- the built-up area?
1561 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And did you hear any gunfire, rifle fire 3 over the -- during the evening and night? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Now, when you -- in the afternoon, when 6 did you go back to the Park? At what time on the evening 7 prior to the confrontation? 8 A: It would have to be, I'd say, later -- 9 maybe later in the afternoon. 10 Q: Okay. And were you in the Park on the 11 sandy parking lot when there was a confrontation with -- 12 between your brother Stewart George and Mr. Gerald George? 13 A: No, I wasn't there. 14 Q: And were you aware that Mr. -- of Mr. 15 Gerald George's views with respect to the occupation of the 16 Army Camp and the Park? 17 A: Can you say that again? 18 Q: Were you aware of the position that Mr. 19 Gerald George took with respect to the occupation of the Army 20 Camp and the Park? 21 A: About -- yeah, about letters he sent to 22 the local paper, yeah. 23 Q: Were you -- prior to September 6th, were 24 you aware of those letters? 25 A: Yeah.
1571 Q: Had you read those letters? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And could we show the witness Exhibit 73 4 and ask him if this was one (1) of the letters? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Thank you. Yeah, I remember that. 9 Q: And the -- did you read it at or about 10 the time it was published in the paper? 11 A: Yeah, we pretty well get the paper, it 12 only comes out once a week, so. 13 Q: And did you read it in the paper or when 14 your -- 15 A: In the paper, yeah. 16 Q: And what did you think about the letter? 17 A: It shows me where he -- at the time what 18 he thinks about us and of our cause and it was showing me who 19 the real jerk was. 20 Q: And -- but at any rate, the -- you were 21 not there. Did you hear about the incident between your 22 brother and Gerald George? 23 A: Not until I arrived back down. 24 Q: And did you see Gerald George on 25 September 6th?
1581 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And where did you see Gerald George? 3 A: He was at the half way point, OPP road 4 block, heading down towards the beach. He was -- I noticed 5 him standing there talking to some police officers. 6 Q: And... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: If we look at Exhibit P-40 for a moment, 11 I'd -- were -- can you tell us when you observed Mr. Gerald 12 George speaking to the Ontario Police -- Provincial Police 13 officers, where were you -- where were you and where were you 14 going to? 15 A: I was heading north on the road that's 16 inside of the perimeters. 17 Q: The road that -- 18 A: Just -- 19 Q: -- runs parallel to Army Camp Road? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you identify on this map 22 approximately where the road block was that you observed Mr. 23 Gerald George? 24 A: Right in this area, I'd say. Right in 25 here.
1591 Q: It's an area -- you're pointing to an 2 area south of -- the intersection of Matheson Drive and Army 3 Camp Road? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Perhaps halfway between the -- where you 6 could see on the -- P-40, it's a sewage disposal plant and 7 Army -- and Matheson Drive, would that -- is that a fair 8 description? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And so, was Mr. Gerald George and the OPP 11 officers speaking on the road? On Army Camp Road? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And how many police officers were there? 14 A: That's a good question. I'd have to say 15 three (3) or four (4), maybe. 16 Q: Okay. And when you arrived in the Park, 17 the -- where did you go after you observed Mr. Cecil George - 18 - I mean, Gerald George speaking to the police officers? 19 A: Went to this area here -- in this 20 exhibit. 21 Q: You went to the area near the west -- the 22 western -- the fence along the western side of the Park? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And were there -- when you arrived, were 25 there -- were there occupiers out in the sandy parking lot?
1601 A: There probably was, yeah. 2 Q: Do you know, or are you guessing? 3 A: I can't say for sure, but I'd have to 4 say, yeah, there would -- could have been. 5 Q: And, did you speak to the -- any of the 6 individuals who were outside in the sandy parking lot? Did 7 you go out there yourself? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And did you speak to the people? 10 A: Yeah, that's when they told me about the 11 -- the Gerald thing with my brother, Stewart. 12 Q: And did -- do you recall who was out in 13 the sandy parking lot at this time? 14 A: No, I don't. 15 Q: Was your brother, Stewart, there? 16 A: Could have been, yeah. There were some 17 inside, some outside. 18 Q: And David George? Was he there? Do you 19 remember? 20 A: I think he was, yeah. 21 Q: And were the occupiers who were out in 22 the sandy parking lot carrying anything? 23 A: Not that I can recall. 24 Q: And from this point in time, did you stay 25 in and around the -- this area of the -- the Park for the
1611 rest of the evening? 2 A: Pretty well much, yeah. 3 Q: And during the period of time were you -- 4 when you were in the area, were you inside the Park or out in 5 the sandy parking lot? 6 A: Inside. 7 Q: And at any time did you observe a car 8 with -- being driven by a female person that was struck by 9 bats carried by any of the occupiers? 10 A: No, I didn't witness that. 11 Q: And --. 12 A: I didn't see it, it happened. 13 Q: And did you hear of such and incident 14 from the occupiers? 15 A: No, I can't really -- I can't really say 16 that I did hear about it. 17 Q: And the -- on the evening of September 6, 18 did you eat in the Park? 19 A: I think so, I think the wife brought 20 sandwiches down. 21 Q: And were your children still in the Park 22 when your wife came with the -- with the sandwiches? 23 A: They were in the car. 24 Q: They came down with -- with your wife? 25 A: Yeah, because if I remember it correctly,
1621 they were making the sandwiches in the -- in the maintenance 2 shed. 3 Q: Oh, in the maintenance shed? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And during -- was there -- did -- was 6 there a large number of people having -- eating in the Park 7 that evening? 8 A: Yeah, the ones that were hungry, yeah. 9 Q: And was there a decision made on 10 September 6 that women and children would leave the Park? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And if people -- women and children -- 13 left the Park, did your wife leave the Park or did she stay? 14 A: She left. 15 Q: And why did she leave? 16 A: To take the kids home; it was getting 17 dark. 18 Q: And how old were your two (2) -- the two 19 (2) children -- your two (2) girls that were with her then? 20 That's nine (9) years ago. 21 A: Eleven (11) -- eleven (11) and twelve 22 (12), I believe. 23 Q: And did they -- were they going to school 24 the next day? 25 A: I think they were. Yeah, I think they
1631 were going to school, I believe. 2 Q: And did -- were there -- as it was 3 getting dark, were there other children and women in the 4 Park? 5 A: There were two (2) other women that 6 stayed behind, yeah. 7 Q: And do you know if anyone else made a 8 decision to ask women and children to leave the Park? 9 A: No, there was no decision made. I speak 10 for that one, yeah. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: I used -- I know there was no decision 13 made towards that effect. 14 Q: And the people... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And as it got dark on the evening of 19 September 6, were -- what was the -- what were the lighting 20 conditions in the Park in the area that you were located? 21 A: Just a couple of porch lights on the 22 cottages and a little bit of light from the store, and we had 23 two (2) bonfires going. 24 Q: Okay, so that -- if we could just stop. 25 The porch lights from the cottages, do you recall which
1641 cottages? 2 A: It would be -- not the big, white one. 3 The one in this area, there was a little bit of light from 4 that. Not very much, though. 5 Q: And there's -- there's a cottage today 6 south of the big white one, near that first -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- intersection on P-88. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Was that cottage there in a different 11 configuration nine (9) years ago? 12 A: It was renovated since then, I believe 13 it. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: And addition on to it, yeah. 16 Q: And is that the cottage that had its 17 light on? 18 A: I believe so, yeah. 19 Q: And you say that there were lights at the 20 Park store. The Park store had light standards around it? 21 A: No, just the lights that were coming from 22 the inside of the store were lit. 23 Q: Oh, the -- 24 A: It -- it's got lights around it, but I 25 don't think they were lit.
1651 Q: The -- the outside lights -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- weren't lit? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And where were the bonfires inside the 6 Park? 7 A: One (1) right here, near the turnstile. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And one (1) further north on the bank 10 closest to the lake. 11 Q: So that you're pointing on Exhibit P-88 12 to an area just by the turnstile, to the right of the 13 turnstile, there was a bonfire there. 14 Perhaps you could mark with the felt pen, the 15 larger pen, Mr. George, where the fire was and if you could 16 do it on -- actually, we'll do it on P-88, no the other one 17 here. The one behind you, sir. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: You want me to mark on there? 23 Q: Yeah. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1661 Q: And we'll mark -- put a number 1 inside 2 that. And that was where one (1) bonfire was. And the 3 second fire was up on the upper right-hand side of P-88 along 4 the top of the bank? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So it really wouldn't be on this 7 particular -- you've drawn a circle and a "2" in the 8 approximate area where that fire was? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And what was -- do you know -- did you 11 observe what was being burned at the fire near -- that's 12 marked Number 1? 13 A: The old broken down picnic tables that 14 were no longer being used. 15 Q: Okay. And did you go up to the fire 16 that's marked in the area -- that's marked number 2? Did you 17 go see it? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And what was being burned up there? 20 A: Same -- same thing. 21 Q: Picnic tables? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And were these -- how would you describe 24 these fires? Were they big fires, little fires? 25 A: Well, we threw a picnic table on at a
1671 time because there was a lot of them beside the maintenance 2 shed. 3 Q: Oh, you picked these picnic tables --they 4 were broken picnic tables near -- from the maintenance shed 5 area? 6 A: Yeah, they were -- there was two (2) rows 7 of -- I seen them on -- on the video there and that's where 8 we burned -- throw them, you get a picture of how big they 9 were. 10 When it got a little low, we'd throw a whole 11 picnic table on again. They had about, jeez, I'd have to say 12 fifty (50) coats of paint on them and ... 13 Q: So they would burn quite -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: For a long time? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And the video that you're talking about 18 is the video that we looked at this morning, P-89, the -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: You can see them in the -- the helicopter 21 video? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And were you in the Park when Cecil 24 Bernard George arrived? 25 A: Yes.
1681 Q: And Cecil Bernard George -- can you tell 2 us approximately when Cecil Bernard George arrived? 3 A: It was a while after -- it had to be 4 after 10:00. I think about -- it would have to be after ten 5 o'clock, yeah. 6 Q: And he -- it was -- it was dark by then? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And was anyone with Cecil Bernard George 9 that you recall? 10 A: Yeah, I believe there was a couple of 11 other fellows, but I can't -- I don't know who they were. I 12 -- I'd probably know them if I see them, but I don't recall 13 who they were at the time. 14 Q: You don't recall who was there? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: What -- do you recall -- we've been told 17 that when -- Cecil Bernard George's brother, Jeremiah, was 18 with them. Does that assist? 19 A: Could have been, yeah. 20 Q: And did you speak to Cecil Bernard George 21 or...? 22 A: Yeah, he came over and handed me the two- 23 way radio or the scanner. I think it was a scanner. 24 Q: Okay, and where were you located when --? 25 A: Right behind the turnstile.
1691 Q: The turnstile near the big -- the fire 2 marked number 1? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And, so what, if anything, did Mr. Cecil 5 Bernard George say to you when he handed you the two-way 6 radio or the scanner? 7 A: He said something about there were two 8 hundred (200) police in riot gear getting ready to march down 9 the road. 10 Q: Did he say anything else? 11 A: He said he was going to go down the road 12 after he passed me that scanner. 13 Q: And what was he going to do going down 14 the road? 15 A: I don't know. Him and another guy -- 16 probably a couple of other guys, they went down the road, 17 too. Bernard, I think he was one (1) of the first ones to go 18 down the road and I was wondering why, all of a sudden, he 19 was so brave to go and do something like that because I never 20 knew him to be a person that would do something like that and 21 away he went and he went down the road and I think another 22 guy was Kevin Thomas, I believe. 23 Q: Yes, and then did -- were you able to -- 24 did you have a walkie-talkie or a scanner? Did you -- can 25 you recall what you --?
1701 A: I think it was a scanner. 2 Q: And were you able to listen to the OPP 3 conversations over the scanner? 4 A: A little bit of it. 5 Q: And did you need some code to operate the 6 scanner? How did you know how to operate the scanner? 7 A: It was on when he handed it to me and I 8 just left it on. 9 Q: Oh, it was on when -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And, so what, if anything, did you hear 12 over the scanner? 13 A: I heard them say that police -- I assume 14 it was the police -- that there's one (1) along side of the 15 road, meaning one (1) of us, I guess, and that he has a gun. 16 Then it -- there was a pause and then it came back saying, 17 No, it's just a stick that he's carrying and -- 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: I don't know if it was before that or 20 after that I heard the police officers saying the badgers are 21 in the Park and to us that didn't -- like, who's the badgers? 22 Us or them? 23 Q: And did you know what they meant by 24 "Badgers are in the Park"? 25 A: No, I didn't.
1711 Q: And did you hear anything else over the 2 scanner, Mr. George? 3 A: No, I don't think so. 4 Q: Okay, and there was -- Mr. Cecil Bernard 5 George is down the road. Did -- what happened next? Did he 6 come back? Did he radio back? 7 A: The Kevin Thomas fellow came back and 8 said there was a -- looked like a coaxial or a telephone line 9 going across the road. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: The tarmac being East Parkway Drive. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: And asked what to do and I said, Well, 14 you got a knife, just cut it. So he went back. I assumed he 15 cut it. 16 Q: And then what happened? 17 A: He went and they came back. They weren't 18 too far in front of the -- the OPPs were advancing. 19 Q: Now, when you say, They came back, you're 20 referring to -- 21 A: Bernard and -- 22 Q: Cecil Bernard George and Kevin Thompson 23 came. 24 A: Thomas and then I -- I'm not sure, I 25 think maybe Dave could have went down.
1721 Q: David George? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: I'm not sure, but he could have. 5 Q: And I misspoke myself. It's Kevin 6 Thomas. I said -- I think I said Thompson. 7 A: Kevin Thomas, yeah. 8 Q: And so you believe David -- David George 9 may have been out on -- 10 A: He -- he might have, yeah. 11 Q: And did Cecil Bernard George radio on the 12 walkie talkie that police officers were coming down the road 13 or did he report that when he returned? 14 A: He -- when they came back, yeah. 15 Q: When they came back? And where were you 16 when Cecil Bernard George and Kevin Thomas and David George 17 came back down East Parkway Drive? 18 A: The same area as the turnstile. 19 Q: And were there -- was there anyone else 20 -- was there anyone out in the sandy parking lot? 21 A: Well, when they came back, Bernard and 22 them, we all -- we were all along the east side of the fence. 23 There might have been a few other guys wandering on the other 24 side of the fence, I'm not sure. I could say that there 25 probably could have been.
1731 Q: Yes. 2 A: They weren't too far ahead of the OPP and 3 we all ended up on this end of the -- the east side of the 4 fence. 5 Q: And when everyone was on the east side of 6 the fence, were you able to see the -- the police officers on 7 East Parkway Drive? 8 A: Yeah. We waited until we could -- until 9 they approached. It was -- you couldn't see down that road 10 as good as this map says it is but it was over this way more 11 and you could only see maybe down this road a little ways. 12 Q: So what you're telling us is that when 13 you're looking at the map as the intersection is drawn, it's 14 not as easy to see west along the road as it would appear 15 from looking at Exhibit P-88? 16 A: From the way this map is you got it so we 17 could almost see right down that road. In fact we couldn't. 18 Q: You couldn't? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And just before we go on, there's a sand 21 pile that's noted on P-88. Do you see that sand pile there? 22 Was that there the night of September 6th? 23 A: No it wasn't. 24 Q: Do you know when that was put on the -- 25 this drawing was done on September 20th, 1995. Do you know
1741 when that sand pile was created? 2 A: I think it was around the same area of 3 time as they installed street lights which they put right in 4 this area. 5 Q: The street light as I understand it 6 wasn't installed until the next year. But -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- this sand pile -- this drawing was 9 done on September the 20th, 1995, just two and a half (2 1/2) 10 weeks after Mr. Dudley George was shot. And -- and it wasn't 11 there on September 6th and it was there on September 20th. 12 It appeared some time between there. And do you have any 13 knowledge of when it was created? 14 A: No, I don't. 15 Q: You don't? 16 A: No. 17 Q: So that -- the police officers came down 18 -- were coming down the road, how many occupiers were there 19 in the Park near the fence line as the officers were coming 20 down the road? 21 A: About twenty (20). 22 Q: About twenty (20)? And that includes 23 men, women and young people or were they all men? 24 A: Men and there were two (2) ladies there, 25 yeah.
1751 Q: And -- okay. And can you tell me who was 2 there? You were there? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Was Stewart George there? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And Elwood George? Elwood? 7 A: Elwood? Yes. 8 Q: And your son Nicholas Cottrelle? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And J.T. Cousins, was he there? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And J.T. Cousins was fourteen (14) or 13 fifteen (15) at the time? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And Leland George? 16 A: That's correct? Yeah. 17 Q: And Leland was fourteen (14) or fifteen 18 (15) at the time? 19 A: Yep. He was young -- he's younger than 20 Nick, yeah. 21 Q: He was younger than Nick and Nick was 22 sixteen (16)? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Darlene Fisher? 25 A: Yeah, she was there.
1761 Q: And is Darlene Fisher from -- 2 A: Walpole. 3 Q: From Walpole Island? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And Gina Johnson? 6 A: Yeah, she was there. 7 Q: And Gina Johnson is Cecil Bernard 8 George's sister? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And Al George was there? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And David George was there? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And Marlin George was there? 15 A: After a while, later on, yeah. 16 Q: Not originally? 17 A: Not when the shooting started. I believe 18 -- he come there a little later, yeah. 19 Q: Okay. Kevin George? 20 A: Kevin George? 21 Q: I mean Kevin Simon? 22 A: I'm not -- I'm not too sure if he was 23 there or not. I'm kind of lost on that one. 24 Q: Okay. Dutch French? 25 A: Yes.
1771 Q: Isaac Doxtator? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Wayne Pine? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Gabriel Doxtator? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: J.R. or Glenn Bressette? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Mr. Dudley George? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Mr. Robert Isaac? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Mr. Warren George? 14 A: Junior. Junior, yeah. 15 Q: Is that junior or Waldo? 16 A: It's just P. Junior. 17 Q: Oh, he's senior? 18 A: No. 19 Q: But he's also called -- okay. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Stacey George? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Mr. Dale Plain? 24 A: Junior, yeah. 25 Q: And Wesley George?
1781 A: I believe so, yeah. 2 Q: And you re -- you think there was -- do 3 you recall anyone else? 4 A: You said Robert Isaac? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Yeah. I think that's pretty well it. 7 Q: Okay. And the -- did you have any 8 spotlights on your side of the fence? 9 A: Two (2), I believe. 10 Q: And what type of spotlights were they, 11 Mr. George? 12 A: They were round. They were a 1 million 13 candlelight power. 14 Q: And they were both 1 million candlelight 15 power? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And did they operate on batteries or did 18 they operate -- were they fixed to a car? 19 A: Plug them into the cigarette lighter. 20 Q: On the -- oh -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And were cars -- were the spotlights, 23 excuse me, available for use that evening? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And --
1791 A: It was -- they was in their cars and I 2 think it was -- in whose cars they were in, Waldo's I think. 3 They always carried a spotlight. Almost everybody had a 4 spotlight, so. 5 Q: And the two (2) spotlights that were in 6 the cars that evening, the cars were close to the fence line? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Is that correct? 9 A: I believe, yeah. 10 Q: And were the spotlights used that 11 evening? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And when did -- when were the spotlights 14 used? 15 A: As soon as we seen them marching around 16 this corner in formation -- 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: -- that's when they were lit up. 19 Q: So as the police officers came into view 20 on East Parkway Drive just before the end of the tarmac, at 21 the intersection of east car -- Parkway Drive and Army Camp 22 Road, the two (2) spotlights were turned on to illuminate the 23 police officers? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And can you describe for us the -- what
1801 you saw, what the police officers looked like, how they were 2 dressed? 3 A: They were all dressed the same, for one 4 thing. 5 Q: And can you tell us -- 6 A: Mostly -- 7 Q: -- describe the uniform for us. 8 A: You could see a lot of glare off the 9 shields -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- the shields and the -- the ones they 12 were carrying and up here and I kind of think they were in 13 grey -- grey uniform, maybe the colour of that map down 14 there. 15 Q: And ... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Can I show you a photograph -- three (3) 20 photographs, Mr. George, and ask if you recognize -- this is 21 a photograph of a green -- it looks like a green uniform. 22 Perhaps the light's -- and another greenish looking uniform 23 and a grey looking uniform. 24 Can you -- does that assist you in... 25 A: Well they had more, like, body armour on.
1811 Q: And you said you thought it was -- the 2 police officers dressed in grey, but they had -- the officers 3 that you saw had body armour on? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And by that I take it you mean a bullet 6 proof vest -- vest? 7 A: Well, it looked like they were made out 8 of plastic. They had long arms, their legs, their chest, 9 their helmet. 10 Q: Okay, and -- 11 A: I call it a Star Wars type helmet. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: The helmet that -- we've got a photo, but 16 I don't have it handy, but can you just describe -- the 17 helmet was a metal, looked like a metal helmet, did it? 18 A: Yeah, it covered up their whole head and 19 it's the -- the screens, the shields covered their -- you 20 couldn't -- well, I couldn't have seen any of their faces or 21 anything. 22 Q: And so there was a plastic shield over 23 the front? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And what were they -- the officers, when
1821 you first saw them at the end of East Parkway Drive, what 2 were the officers carrying that you saw? 3 A: I'd say most of them were those sticks 4 with little -- with a handle on the side of it. Those and 5 their -- their shields. 6 Q: And how big was the shield? 7 A: Enough to cover the front of them. 8 Q: So three (3) or four (4) feet, maybe? 9 A: No, it wouldn't be that wide. I think 10 they were -- 11 Q: And -- 12 A: -- taller than they were wide. 13 Q: Okay. And so -- and how -- how many 14 police officers did you observe when you first saw the police 15 officers? Were they in a row, were they in a group? Can you 16 describe what the police officers -- 17 A: I seen two (2) rows of possibly fifteen 18 (15) or twenty (20) across. Because it went from side to 19 side. 20 Q: Oh, they -- so they were marching in two 21 (2) rows, side to side, across the whole tarmac? 22 A: Well, behind each other, two (2) rows, 23 yeah. 24 Q: And after you saw them at the end of East 25 Parkway Drive what happened next?
1831 A: We were behind the gate -- the fence and 2 they -- their initial approach, they came right up to the 3 fence where we were. 4 Q: And they came -- and they came into the 5 sandy parking lot and went up to the fence line? 6 A: About four (4) or five (5) feet away, 7 yeah. 8 Q: And did they spread out in the sandy 9 parking lot? 10 A: No, they pretty well kept their 11 foundation -- formation. 12 Q: So two (2) lines of police officers came 13 through the sandy parking lot up to the fence? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And how far north along the fence line 16 did the line stretch? 17 A: Not very far north of the turnstile. 18 Maybe about twenty (20), thirty (30) -- twenty (20), twenty- 19 five (25) feet. 20 Q: So that they -- the line of police 21 officers ran from the area round the turnstile, twenty (20) 22 to twenty-five (25) -- 23 A: They were -- they were pretty close 24 together, yeah. 25 Q: Twenty-five (25) feet up the -- to the
1841 north of the turnstile? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And they approached within four (4) or 4 five (5) feet and what happened then? 5 A: Well, they didn't do nothing. They just 6 stood there, and to me it looked like they were coming to get 7 a head count, to see how many people were actually there and 8 some of the guys probably they started yelling at them and 9 from where I was at the -- in south end of where we were, I 10 heard a voice from the south here, the grassy knoll area, 11 saying retreat to the tarmac. And that's what they did. 12 Q: And when you say the "grassy knoll area", 13 can you point out the grassy knoll area on P-88? 14 A: This area. 15 Q: And you're pointing to the -- the curve 16 area on P-88 that runs from the fence line on the western 17 limit of the Park around to East Parkway -- Army Camp Road? 18 A: Yeah. 'Cause I was here and I heard the 19 voice coming from this way. That doesn't -- that makes it 20 look a lot bigger there than what it actually is, too. It 21 doesn't really project how far out into the roadway. 22 Q: The perspective is not correct if you 23 look at it on the ground? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And so you heard a voice say, retreat.
1851 Did you observe the -- the person who was speaking? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And the officers then moved back to the 4 -- where did they move back to? 5 A: On this here. 6 Q: And they moved back to the -- the western 7 -- eastern edge of the tarmac you're pointing the curve 8 between East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And what then happened? When -- before 11 we go there, when they approached the first time, were the 12 police officers saying anything or doing anything? 13 A: Not that I heard. Because it was like I 14 myself was kind of waiting for somebody to -- on their part 15 to say something. 16 Q: Okay. And at this point had -- were they 17 banging -- was anyone banging on their shields? 18 A: Not at that time. 19 Q: Okay. So they're back at the tarmac, 20 then what happens? 21 A: A couple of guys I think went out past 22 beyond the fence and I was still where I was. I heard 23 another -- probably the same voice saying something about a 24 punch out. Yeah, at about that time, yeah. 25 Q: And so --
1861 A: Yeah because I kind of think they were -- 2 yeah, when they first came up there is when they were beating 3 their shields, yeah. No, it was when -- punch out when they 4 were beating their shields, yeah. 5 Q: So the -- the police officers, you heard 6 a voice say 'punch out' and the police officers advanced back 7 into the sandy parking lot? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And they were beating their shields? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And how fast were they -- were the police 12 officers walking, running, how would you describe that? 13 A: They were walking at a pretty fast -- 14 faster pace than before. 15 Q: Faster pace than before? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And what did the police officers do? How 18 far did they advance? 19 A: It's hard to say. They -- I guess they 20 were kind of different because -- different locations because 21 I -- I think that's when they grabbed -- that's when the 22 stick fight broke out amongst them. 23 Q: And when you say the stick fight broke 24 out -- the police officers came into the sandy parking lot, 25 did -- the question I'm asking is, though, is where did they
1871 go, Mr. George, in the sandy parking lot? Did they come up 2 to the fence, did they stop in the middle? 3 A: They -- they didn't make it all the way 4 to fence that time. 5 Q: So -- 6 A: No. Not as far as they did before. 7 Q: So about how far away from the fence 8 would they be the second time? 9 A: I'd say about half way. 10 Q: About half way? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And were there occupiers out in the 13 parking lot and the sandy parking lot at this point? 14 A: A few of them, yeah. 15 Q: And is that -- so what happened between 16 the occupiers in the sandy parking lot and the police 17 officers, if anything? 18 A: That's when -- well there was a verbal -- 19 I remember Bernard he was already on the way. 20 Q: And where was Cecil Bernard George? 21 A: He was standing out in this area here in 22 the sandy parking lot. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Now police were right there and he was 25 yelling. A few other guys were yelling as well.
1881 Q: Out in the sandy parking lot? 2 A: Yeah. And the next I knew, they were 3 fighting -- we were fighting. 4 Q: And Cecil Bernard George and the other 5 people in the sandy parking lot were fighting with the police 6 officers? 7 A: Yeah. I think, yeah, there was fight 8 there, brief. Brief moment, yeah, and that's when they 9 grabbed him, yeah. 10 Q: Did you see the police officers grab 11 Cecil Bernard George? 12 A: Not, not, the initial seizure. I never 13 seen them grab him but after I seen them kicking him. 14 Q: And how did you know it was -- tell us 15 what you saw? 16 A: Well, it was the fight, there was the 17 verbal thing then the fight and everybody was fighting and 18 then I heard somebody saying, they've got Slippery, that what 19 I drew my attention to it and that's when I seen them 20 standing around kicking him and clubbing him. 21 Q: And when -- when -- and Slippery is a 22 nickname for Cecil Bernard George? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And where were you standing when you 25 heard the voice ring out, they've got Slippery?
1891 A: I was out in this area. 2 Q: So you had moved out into the Park? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And could you mark on that Exhibit P-88 5 with the number 3, where you were when you heard the voice, 6 they're got Slippery. Did you see -- did you see Cecil 7 Bernard George go out into the Park? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you -- where were you standing when 10 he first went out in the Park? 11 A: I never changed my position, I was at 12 this end. 13 Q: Okay, mark "3" where you were when you 14 first saw Mr. Cecil Bernard George go out into the parking 15 lot. Put a three (3) where you were standing. 16 A: I think I was out in this area. 17 Q: No, the -- I think you're 18 misunderstanding me. I've confused you, Mr. George. When 19 you first saw Mr. Cecil Bernard George go out into the sandy 20 parking lot -- 21 A: You mean when he went out? 22 Q: Yeah, I took it from your evidence you 23 were inside the Park. 24 A: Over here. 25 Q: Okay. So, could you mark a "3"? An "X"
1901 and a "3"? And an "X" beside it where you were standing? So 2 that represents where you were standing and can you mark on 3 the map, on P-88, where you saw Cecil -- Bernard George in 4 the parking lot the first time? Where he was? 5 A: He was over in this area. A three (3) -- 6 . 7 Q: No, it -- it would have to be a "4", now. 8 A: "4" there. 9 Q: And that's where Cecil Bernard George 10 was? 11 A: No, that's where I was. 12 Q: Okay, and so you moved out in the parking 13 lot and "4" is where you were when you saw Cecil Bernard 14 George being beaten? Or who you -- 15 A: Approx -- yeah, around that area. 16 Q: And where did -- was Cecil Bernard George 17 being -- you observed him being beaten by the police 18 officers? Where was he located? 19 A: He was in this area. 20 Q: Could you mark -- mark a "5" there, 21 please? And can you tell us, how did you know that it was 22 Cecil Bernard George? Just from what people --? 23 A: We heard somebody yell it. 24 Q: Okay, but you -- did you -- could you 25 recognize the person who was on -- that was being beaten by
1911 the police? 2 A: No, I couldn't see him. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: We were surrounded. 5 Q: And -- so, what did you observe the 6 police officers doing? 7 A: Kicking him and clubbing him all at the 8 same time. 9 Q: The person who was on the ground? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And then what happened? 12 A: Well, I -- I knew it was Slippery, then - 13 - Bernard and then I don't know. I don't think I said it, I 14 heard somebody say, Get the bus, that bus. It was parked in 15 this area. 16 Q: The Park was -- the bus was parked over 17 near the Park store? 18 A: In front of the store, yeah. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: I heard somebody yell, Get the bus, 21 because the idea was to split them up. Like, split the 22 police officers up because we knew the -- well, we didn't 23 have no weapons or anything, so, the bus was intended to 24 divide them up, which it did and then that was it. And then 25 the bus -- I thought about getting in the bus myself, but
1921 then it was already moving and I noticed it was my son 2 driving. 3 Q: And where were you -- where were you when 4 you noticed that it was your son driving? 5 A: I was back inside by that time. The bus 6 went through and I was standing here. 7 Q: So, the -- you were standing on the west 8 side of the -- on the east side of the entrance of the -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- Park. And I understand there was a 11 dumpster in that entranceway? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And, so what happened with the dumpster? 14 A: The bus pushed it out of the way. 15 Q: Pushed it out of the way? 16 A: On its way out, yeah. 17 Q: And by then you knew it was your son 18 driving? 19 A: Yeah, yeah. 20 Q: And can you show us on Exhibit P-88 the - 21 - where the bus went? Where you observed the bus? 22 A: As far as it went? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: It came through here, pushed right and 25 its tires were entirely on the tarmac before it come to a
1931 full stop. 2 Q: So the -- the -- the bus was partially on 3 the sand and partially on the tarmac? 4 A: Fully on the tarmac. 5 Q: Fully on the tarmac? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And can you draw on the P-88 a little -- 8 a square where the bus was when it stopped and mark a "6" 9 beside it? 10 A: It was in -- in this area. 11 Q: All right. And at this point, where were 12 you? 13 A: Still in the same area, but I was heading 14 out towards this way to -- because I was focussed more on the 15 bus from then on, eh? 16 Q: Because you saw -- you knew your son 17 was -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So you followed -- is it fair -- is it 20 fair to say you followed the bus out? 21 A: Well, I noticed it going too far and I 22 heard the gears grinding. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And yes I did follow it out. 25 Q: And did you see the car that came out?
1941 A: No, I didn't see it go out. 2 Q: And when did you first notice a car out 3 in the sandy parking lot, or did you? 4 A: After -- after the shooting was done. I 5 knew the car was out there as well. 6 Q: After the shooting was started? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: So you're out in the sandy parking lot, 9 you're going towards the bus. Tell us exactly what you did, 10 Mr. George. 11 A: After the bus stopped, I went out in 12 front of it -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: And banged on the hood, get my son's 15 attention and he must have been -- he was ducking down and he 16 seen it was me and I went in that kind of fashion to back it 17 up. 18 Q: And you -- you -- you -- you're -- what 19 you've just -- what you've done is you've held up your hands 20 and -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: You put -- you put -- you had your hands 23 parallel and motioned to him towards him -- 24 A: To -- 25 Q: -- to back up --
1951 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And then what happened? 3 A: He was backing up and I went -- by that 4 time it was maybe to get on to the -- off of the tarmac, I'll 5 say. And I went back to here, because the dumpster was in 6 the way. We were going to tip the dumpster, we had to tip it 7 over three (3) times to get the bus back in. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: So I think it -- well, the only guys that 10 were there was me and Dudley and Robert was on that side of 11 the bus. 12 Q: Robert Isaac? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And I -- the bus was moving backwards and 16 I looked out onto this direction, it was -- because when I 17 went up to the bus there was police officers in the ditch 18 here. 19 Q: So you're pointing to the ditch -- 20 A: The corner, yeah. 21 Q: At the corner on south side of East 22 Parkway Drive, you observed police officers along the side of 23 the road in the ditch? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And what were the police officers doing
1961 there? 2 A: They were -- it looks like they were 3 laying -- they got pushed over there by the bus. 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: And I guess they were in the process of 6 getting up. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: And when the bus was back, because I went 9 back to where Dudley was, and I started to go back out 10 towards the bus and that's when I seen my first muzzle flash, 11 the first one that I've seen. 12 Q: And when you observed the muzzle flash, 13 what did you think? 14 A: Well I thought it would be like a warning 15 shot, but it wasn't. It was -- the muzzle flash was in our 16 direction and it was round. 17 Q: And what did that signify to you? 18 A: I said, Holy F, they're firing right at 19 us and it all happened. 20 Q: And so the -- the first shot came and 21 then did you hear other shots or what happened? 22 A: On the other side of the bus I heard 23 shots, yeah. 24 Q: On the other side of the bus? You -- 25 A: Yeah.
1971 Q: -- were on the south side of the bus at 2 this time? 3 A: Yeah, all the time I was. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And when you first heard the shot, where 7 was the bus? Was it still out on the tarmac? 8 A: It was in the process -- it was almost 9 back to the gate. About halfway in this area. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: The better part of being back anyway. 12 Q: And then what happened? 13 A: That's when Dudley was in front of me and 14 he spun around and he yelled to Robert, Robert I think I'm 15 hit. 16 And he fell against me and I -- I couldn't 17 believe what had happened and the next think I knew he was 18 being carried away and -- and then we were focussed on the 19 bus again to get it back in. And we got it back in. 20 Q: And did -- what -- had Mr. Dudley George 21 been carried into the Park before the bus got into the Park? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And so how many shots did you hear? 24 A: How many? It was kind of impossible to 25 count them. But I'd have to estimate at least a hundred
1981 (100). 2 Q: You heard quite a few shots? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And at what -- did you observe the -- 5 Warren George's car at any time? 6 A: After the bus got back in, it -- it had a 7 problem getting back in, because of the fence line at the 8 time. It was more or less just like a sand hill, and he was 9 having trouble getting over the sand hill. 10 Q: So he was -- 11 A: Because all of his tires were flat. 12 Q: -- he was trying to get in, not through 13 the gate, but up through a space in the fence? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And can you point out on P-88 where the 16 car came back in? 17 A: It went in. It went -- it came back in 18 the same way it went out, I found later. It was right in 19 this area. 20 Q: And could you mark a "7" along the fence 21 line where the car came back in? And you observed it come 22 back in, but -- and you found out later it went out the same 23 way? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. Then -- if I could stop for a
1991 moment -- when the police officers came into the sandy 2 parking lot the second time and you heard Cecil Bernard 3 George's voice, could you hear what Cecil Bernard George was 4 saying? 5 A: When he was talking to the policeman? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Yeah, he said our ancestors are buried 8 here in this Park and we've got all the rights to be there 9 and -- I heard that part and then he -- he said some other -- 10 more stuff along the line -- same line, too, as well. 11 Q: And did you -- did you observe anything 12 in Mr. Cecil Bernard George's hand? 13 A: I kind of think he might have had a two- 14 way radio. 15 Q: Did you -- we've heard some evidence that 16 he may have had a -- 17 A: I didn't see -- 18 Q: -- stick or a pipe in his hand? 19 A: -- I didn't see no -- I didn't see 20 anything in his hand, but he was the one down the road with - 21 - seen with the two-way radio. At least that -- on the 22 scanner, that's what it said. There was -- there's one (1) 23 along the road with a gun, but no, it's just a gun. 24 Q: It's just a stick. 25 A: No, it's just a stick, but then later
2001 said, No, it's just a radio, so that's why when -- and that's 2 how I knew it was Bernard. 3 Q: Okay, and you heard -- this -- I had 4 understood that you told us earlier, Mr. George, that you 5 heard on the scanner that there's a gun and then, No, it's a 6 stick -- 7 A: Stick and then -- he had -- so it's just 8 a radio because his radio had a big long antenna on it. 9 Q: The radio had a big long antenna? 10 A: Yes, yeah. 11 Q: Okay. And did the -- what happened after 12 the -- the bus went out? The police officers -- you saw the 13 police officers along the fence line on the south side of 14 Army Camp -- East Parkway Drive -- what -- as the bus was 15 coming back, what the -- were the police officers doing? 16 A: When the bus was coming back? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: The police officers that I could see? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: It looks like they were -- they were 21 still all in a -- a little group there. 22 Q: At -- by East Parkway Drive? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And when the bus got back into the Park, 25 what were the police officers doing?
2011 A: Well, by the time the bus was back in the 2 Park, they were retreating. 3 Q: And retreating down East Parkway Drive? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay, and so it was your recollection 6 that the police officers came up into the parking lot just 7 twice? 8 A: To what? 9 Q: The police officers came into the sandy 10 parking lot two (2) times? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. Now, I guess it might be an 13 appropriate time if you wanted to have an afternoon break, or 14 I'm happy to carry on. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we'll 16 skip it and possibly end a little early -- 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Great. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- because I 19 think we should -- 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Great. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- keep it 22 going. 23 THE WITNESS: I'm with you on that one (1). 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Unless you need 25 a break. Do you?
2021 THE WITNESS: No, no, that's -- that's fine 2 with me. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll -- we'll 4 try to end at 4:15 instead of having a break. Is that all 5 right? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Unless you need 8 to continue, we'll try to stop at 4:15. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Now, the -- the bus is back in the Park. 12 Is there anything else -- do you recall seeing people 13 throwing rocks and sticks at the police officers in the 14 parking lot, sandy parking lot? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And was that after Cecil Bernard George 17 and the others -- a few others -- went into the sandy parking 18 lot? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And it was that -- at that point the 21 fight started? 22 A: Well, the rock throwing started after the 23 fight. It was in -- after the -- fight started first. 24 Q: The fight between Cecil Bernard George 25 and the police officers and one (1) or two (2) other people?
2031 A: Well mostly all of us. 2 Q: So when Cecil Bernard George went out is 3 that when the others went out into the parking lot? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And was it -- did they go out after he 6 had been grabbed or before he had been grabbed? 7 A: There was some out there before and 8 after. 9 Q: Okay. And so that once the fight broke 10 out people were throwing stones and people had sticks and 11 baseball bats? Did you observe that? 12 A: Yeah. Yeah, they had clubs, yeah. 13 Q: And how long did this exchange after the 14 fight began until you were back in the Park and the bus was 15 in the Park; can you tell us how long the exchange took, Mr. 16 George? 17 A: Just a matter of minutes. 18 Q: Okay. And after you got back in the Park 19 by -- by the time you got back in the Park, had Mr. Dudley 20 George been taken up to the built-up area? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And what did you do after you got the bus 23 back into the Park? 24 A: Well my son got out of the -- out of the 25 bus and by that time we were in the light of the store, had a
2041 little bit of light coming out of the store and he came out 2 and he walked towards the store and that's when I noticed the 3 blood spot on his -- his right upper back area, shoulder 4 area. 5 And I told him to come here and I lifted up 6 his shirt and I seen a hole big enough I could have put my 7 finger in it, and so, as far as I was concerned at that 8 point, it was a bullet wound and I said does that hurt there? 9 He goes no, but it hurts down here. 10 On his lower left side and he pulled his shirt 11 up there and there was graze big enough that I could have put 12 my whole finger in -- in the graze. It didn't go through his 13 fatty tissue, it was just -- like it wasn't even hardly 14 bleeding, it was just that white liquid coming out of it. 15 But he said that was the one that was sore. 16 Q: That was on the surface of the skin? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And so then what did you do? 19 A: I told him to get into the car, being the 20 blue TransAm and we went -- there was a telephone in the 21 store there so I told somebody to call the ambulance and meet 22 us at the gate of the built-up area. And I took him up 23 there. 24 Q: And when you -- if I could just stop and 25 go back a moment, Mr. George. When you went into the sandy
2051 parking lot, did you have anything in your hand? 2 A: Just that same old piece of crutch I had 3 used to break the windshield. 4 Q: And did you get any confrontation -- a 5 fight with any police officers in the sandy parking lot? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And did you strike some of the police 8 officers? 9 A: As best I could with that little stick. 10 Q: And were you struck by the police 11 officers? 12 A: Not that I can recall. 13 Q: Pardon me? 14 A: Not that I can recall. I don't think I 15 did. 16 Q: Okay. And when the bus went out into the 17 parking lot -- the sandy parking lot and over to the tarmac, 18 can you describe how fast it was going? 19 A: Very slow. He'd have to have it only in 20 may one (1) or second gear, that would be it. 21 Q: And when you were following it out, how 22 fast were you walking? Quickly? Slowly? 23 A: I wasn't walking very fast. 24 Q: Okay. And were you able to keep up with 25 it -- the bus as it went out?
2061 A: Yeah, to a certain point until its -- I 2 stopped there for a second in hopes, because I seen the brake 3 lights on but he -- he went out too far because he couldn't 4 find reverse gear. 5 Q: Okay. And is there anything else that 6 you can recall about the confrontation with the police 7 officers in the parking lot that you want to add; that I've 8 overlooked. 9 A: I'll probably remember when I get home. 10 Not at this -- no, I guess it wouldn't be at this point. 11 Q: Okay. So that you drove your TransAm 12 back to the main gate and the built-up area and then what 13 happened? 14 A: My wife, she went -- I told her what 15 happened and she looked at the back and she agreed it's a 16 bullet hole, and I told her, well they ain't -- that's how we 17 went up to there, well, they ain't going to give us no 18 ambulance down here, so. 19 Q: Okay, when you say they wouldn't give us 20 an ambulance -- 21 A: We -- 22 Q: -- down there -- 23 A: -- we figured they wouldn't come there, 24 so -- 25 Q: Yes.
2071 A: Get an ambulance themselves. 2 Q: Okay. So that when -- did you attempt to 3 call for an ambulance for Nicholas, your son Nicholas 4 Cottrelle, from the parking -- the Park store? 5 A: Yeah, when we left I believe Glenny went 6 in. He might have went in 'cause he was the one standing 7 there. He probably went in to call them to meet us at the 8 main gate. 9 Q: But do you know if Glenn did or did not? 10 A: No, I don't know if he did -- actually 11 did, but somebody did. 12 Q: Somebody did? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And what did they report to you as a 15 result of this conversation? 16 A: I guess -- who report it? 17 Q: Did somebody report to you that they had 18 phoned? How do you know some -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- body -- 21 A: The wife went -- I don't know how she -- 22 she went out to the -- 23 Q: You're misunderstanding me, Mr. George. 24 You said that they would not come down to the Park -- 25 A: No, we -- we assumed that there'd be no
2081 ambulance that would come to there now, knowing that somebody 2 got shot and -- 3 Q: Okay, so that was an assumption on your 4 part, so -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- you took your son up to the main gate? 7 A: Yeah, we'd have a better chance of 8 getting him to a hospital quicker from that point. 9 Q: Okay. And so you spoke to your wife and 10 what did you wife do? 11 A: She went out to Highway -- the 12 intersection of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road. 13 Q: And was she with anyone? 14 A: Not at the first time, she wasn't. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: She drove my red car out there and she 17 came back that the officers there told her that we would have 18 to take Nick out to that area, out to the Highway for an 19 ambulance. 20 Q: For an ambulance? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: So that -- your wife went out, spoke to 23 the police officers, asked for -- could you hear your wife 24 speaking? 25 A: Not at the -- the first one (1), but the
2091 second one (1), I could. 2 Q: Okay, so -- 3 A: The second time she went out. 4 Q: Okay, the first time she went out, she 5 came back and said that she had -- she told you that the 6 police officers said that your son Nicholas would have to go 7 out to the intersection to be -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- for an ambulance? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. Then what happened? 12 A: She came back and she got the car, the 13 TransAm and I got my sister Tina to go out there, like, to be 14 a witness. And they went out there and they took him. 15 Q: Took Nicholas in your -- 16 A: Out there, yeah. 17 Q: -- TransAm out on to the -- 18 A: Intersection, yeah. 19 Q: The intersection of Army Camp Road and 20 Highway 21? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And the -- where were you when they drove 23 out to the intersection? 24 A: I went to stand behind Building Number 3. 25 Q: And Building Number 3, if we go to
2101 Exhibit P-41, is the building that -- 2 A: Right here, yeah. 3 Q: Right there. It's at the corner of Army 4 Camp Road and Highway 21 and today it's painted blue? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: So that's -- 7 A: A blue building now. 8 Q: It's a blue building now? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And you were standing beside Building 3? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And you could observe your wife and 13 sister and Nicholas at the intersection of Highway 21 and 14 Army Camp Road? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And was the configuration of the 17 intersection at Highway 21 and Army Camp Road the same as it 18 is today, back in 1995? 19 A: Pretty well much, yeah. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: They got better lightening there -- 22 lighting. 23 Q: Lighting now? 24 A: Just in there now, yeah. 25 Q: And why didn't you go out with your wife
2111 and your sister on -- with your son? 2 A: 'Cause I didn't want to get murdered. 3 Q: And you were -- you were -- you were 4 concerned about that -- for your safety, I take it, then? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. So you were at Building Number 3. 7 What did you observe? 8 A: The police were there. And the ambulance 9 didn't get there until a few seconds later, but they -- my 10 wife and sister got out of the car and the officers came over 11 there and told them, get down on the ground, you bitches. 12 But they didn't get on the ground, they just didn't do what 13 the -- there's no way they were going to get on the ground, 14 but that's what the cops -- the officers there told them. 15 Q: And were the officers armed? 16 A: There were some in the cruiser, but when 17 I started yelling, Phone the goddamned ambulance, they heard 18 me and then some more jumped out of the ditch that I could 19 see assault rifle rifles. 20 Q: And they had -- there -- 21 A: Yes, they pointed them at me. 22 Q: So that the -- when your -- the -- the 23 officers that -- that first approached your wife and sister 24 and, I take it, Nicholas -- was Nicholas sitting in the car? 25 A: He was still in the car, yeah.
2121 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: They wanted him to get out of the car and 3 put his hands up. 4 Q: And, so he -- the officers that 5 approached your wife, Gina, and your sister, Tina George, 6 they were -- were they armed? 7 A: I imagine they would be, yeah. 8 Q: But -- no, can you tell us? 9 A: I couldn't -- they didn't have no guns 10 drawn. 11 Q: And then you started yelling at them 12 after you heard them -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- speak to your wife and sister and 15 asked -- tell them to get down on the ground? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And you started yelling at the police 18 officers? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And then you observed other police 21 officers coming out of the ditch? 22 A: Yeah, they jumped out of the ditch there 23 on the side, it would be on the north -- no, on the southwest 24 corner. It would be in this area where they jumped out. 25 Q: So they were on the south side of Highway
2131 21? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And what did you observe those police 4 officers -- 5 A: They came around and they must have -- 6 well, they seen me there and they pointed their guns at me, 7 so I went running behind the building. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: And by that time, the ambulance was 10 coming there -- was there, yeah. 11 Q: You could see the ambulance? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And the ambulance was there? 14 A: Yeah, it was on there, or it just about 15 there. 16 Q: And, so the ambulance picked up your son, 17 Nicholas? 18 A: Yes, they did. 19 Q: And took him to Strathroy Hospital? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And was your wife, Gina, permitted to go 22 along? 23 A: No, she wasn't, she was pushed aside and 24 I believe another -- the ambulance attendant and another -- a 25 cop -- police got in. I might be mistaken on that one (1),
2141 but I'm sure I seen them push her to the side and close the 2 doors and then they left. 3 Q: Okay. And when did you learn that Mr. 4 Dudley George had passed away? 5 A: It was after Nick was gone. The guys -- 6 a couple of guys came back up and they phoned Strathroy from 7 the store down there and said that he passed away and by that 8 time I was at the gatehouse -- 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: -- of the built-up area and I said, Well, 11 get everybody down there; burn those two (2) buildings down. 12 I don't want nobody else to get hurt, so we vacated 100 13 percent. 14 Q: So, you gave the order -- the direction - 15 - to burn the two (2) buildings down? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And why did you do that? 18 A: Act of retaliation; anger. 19 Q: And did you go down to the Park? 20 A: No, I didn't go back. 21 Q: You didn't go back? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And you then asked everyone -- told 24 everyone that -- to leave the Park? 25 A: Yes, to pull out.
2151 Q: And did everyone pull out of the Park to 2 your knowledge? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: That's your -- your belief? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And were you at the main gate when Ms. 7 Bonnie Bressette came to the -- to the built-up area of the 8 Camp? 9 A: Yeah, at a -- at a point she did, yeah. 10 Q: And, can you -- do you recall what time 11 that was? 12 A: It was -- geez -- around 12:00 or 13 something -- 12:30 -- 1:00 -- somewheres around there. I 14 can't -- 15 Q: You -- 16 A: -- pinpoint it. I didn't -- 17 Q: -- can't remember the time? I understand 18 that and it's only a lawyer who would ask you that, but I 19 appreciate that, but it was some time after Nicholas had been 20 -- 21 A: Oh, yes. 22 Q: -- taken to the hospital. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And after you had learned that Mr. Dudley 25 George had died?
2161 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And after you had given the order with 3 respect to the burning gatehouse and the -- and the Park 4 store? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And, did -- what happened when -- 7 A: It was almost right after the guy came up 8 and he said Dudley was dead. He -- he was probably -- I 9 wasn't even all the way down there by the time, I'm pretty 10 sure, when Bonnie showed up. 11 Q: Okay. And what -- did you have a 12 conversation or overhear a conversation that -- 13 A: Well, what -- 14 Q: -- you -- 15 A: I thought it was Elwood, but it was 16 Robert standing beside me when she came in and with a -- we 17 asked her, well, who gave the order to shoot? And she said, 18 without hesitation, Mike Harris. 19 Q: And what else did she say? 20 A: She wanted to get -- there were some of 21 the women and children, to get them to leave. 22 Q: And did she say anything that you recall, 23 about Cecil Bernard George? 24 A: She said that Bernard was -- she heard 25 that he was -- he was also dead and he was shot in the head
2171 and we told her, well, he'd have to be shot after he was 2 taken into custody, because he was -- there was no gun that 3 we knew of when he was getting beaten. 4 Q: And the -- were you up all night that 5 night, or did you go to bed? 6 A: I was awake all night. 7 Q: And how -- did you -- how many times did 8 you observe Mrs. Bonnie Bressette coming -- 9 A: I -- I observed twice. 10 Q: Twice? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And then the morning of September the 13 7th, 1995, were you in the -- did -- were you in the built up 14 area when the people came marching down Highway 21? 15 A: Yes, I was. 16 Q: And where were you when the people came 17 down Highway 21? 18 A: In the area of the gatehouse. 19 Q: And just before we move on to the -- do 20 you recall Bonnie Bressette telling you that the OPP would 21 not be coming in to the built-up area? 22 A: No, I don't recall her saying anything 23 like that. She might have, but I don't know. I never heard 24 it, like. 25 Q: She may have said that, but you don't
2181 recall her saying that? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And that the OPP would like to talk to 4 you, do you recall her saying -- 5 A: She never said anything like that. 6 Q: That you can recall? 7 A: No, I'm positive she didn't say anything 8 like that. 9 Q: So, can you describe the scene when you 10 observed the people coming down Highway 21? 11 A: The scene? Which -- which one (1)? Down 12 the highway or in the Camp? 13 Q: Well, first on the high -- what you saw 14 on the highway and then what you saw in the Camp. 15 A: Well, we had a guy on the water tower, 16 where he would see quite aways and he could see them coming 17 all the way from the other side of Ravenswood. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: In towards where the bonfire was going. 20 Q: Could you observe -- did he observe the 21 bonfire from -- 22 A: Yeah, you could see from there. And we 23 didn't see much. We were a quarter mile down the road. 24 Q: And were there police officers at the 25 time -- excuse me, were there police officers at the time
2191 still at the intersection of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 2 A: There wasn't. 3 Q: Pardon? 4 A: No. 5 Q: No? They'd left? 6 A: I believe so, yeah. 7 Q: And what did you feel, personally, when 8 you saw these people coming down Highway 21? 9 A: A sigh of relief knowing that we're all 10 still feared for our lives and the fact that there was a 11 hundred (100) witnesses coming down the road, we can kind of 12 relax a bit knowing that no one was going come in there and 13 start shooting at us again. 14 Q: And how many people did you observe 15 coming down the road? Did you observe come into the -- 16 A: It would have to be at least seventy-five 17 (75) to a hundred (100). 18 Q: And the people came in to the built-up 19 area? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Through the main gate, by the gatehouse? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And there were people from Kettle Point? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And were there people from --
2201 A: And other nations, like Walpole -- 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: There were some from there, too. Sarnia. 4 Q: So there was people that came from a 5 variety of different areas that -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- came? Then once they got to the Army 8 Camp, did more people come during that morning? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And about how many people came into the 11 Army Camp on the morning of September 7th to support as 12 supporters? 13 A: I'd have to say hundreds. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And were there any of the 17 political leadership of the First Nations political 18 leadership arrive that morning on September 7th? 19 A: Yeah. We -- I remember Joe Hare, and I 20 remember Gord Peters. 21 Q: And can you tell us who -- is it -- was 22 it at the time Grand Chief Joe Hare? 23 A: I believe he was, yeah. 24 Q: And what organization was Mr. Hare with? 25 A: I think it was the Assembly. I'm -- I'm
2211 not sure. 2 Q: The Assembly of First Nations? 3 A: Could be, yeah. 4 Q: And Mr. Chief Gord Peters you referred 5 to? 6 A: He was the regional, I believe, at the 7 time. 8 Q: With the Chiefs of Ontario or with the -- 9 A: Chiefs of Ontario, yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And after the people arrived in 11 the Park -- I mean at the built-up area, what happened? What 12 -- did you have any discussions with people or what did you 13 do? 14 A: There was quite a few of them piled in 15 the bus, well I'd say political figures and we went down to 16 the Park and I agreed to walk them through and shown them 17 what happened. 18 Q: Yes, and did you do that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And so who was with you when you did 21 that? Was it Mr. Hare? 22 A: Waldo drove the bus down. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And was Mr. Hare with you and Mr. Peters
2221 with you? 2 A: Yeah, they were all on the bus. 3 Q: And was there any -- anyone else that you 4 can recall? 5 A: Probably a couple of Chiefs until later 6 we got back up the built-up area, they had like a little 7 meeting inside Building 26, the drill hall. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: That's where -- it's the first time I 10 ever seen Mr. Mercredi (phonetic). He was in presence at 11 that time later on. 12 Q: So that when you went down to the Park 13 there was Mr. Hare and Mr. Peters and others and you showed 14 -- explained what had happened from your perspective? 15 A: Yeah. Hmm hmm. 16 Q: And did you go out into the sandy parking 17 lot while you were doing that? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And did you go down East Parkway Drive? 20 A: No. Just to show them what -- where the 21 shooting took place. 22 Q: Okay. And then the -- you came back up 23 to the built-up area and I think you said you went to the 24 drill hall and the drill hall is building number, you had the 25 number there.
2231 A: It's 26. 2 Q: 26? And so there was a large number of 3 people in the -- 4 A: Yeah, it was packed. 5 Q: And Mr. Mercredi was there? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And in 1995 was Mr. Mercredi the Grand 8 Chief of the Assembly of First Nations? 9 A: Every one that is -- all across Canada. 10 Q: Yes. And so Mr. Mercredi spoke? 11 A: I think pretty well everybody that was up 12 there spoke. I think he did, too, as well. 13 Q: Okay. And can you just briefly tell us 14 about -- 15 A: Quite a few guys got up there and more or 16 less got a speech out into -- going to demand a public 17 inquiry as to why the shooting took place. Everybody's 18 speech was along that line. 19 Q: Okay. And when did you -- in the morning 20 of September 7th, did you learn what had happened with 21 Nicholas at some point? 22 A: Yeah. During the course of the day I 23 believe -- yeah, I did, yeah. 24 Q: And what did you learn and from whom did 25 you learn it?
2241 A: Well, my cousin Ron George, we call him 2 Spike, he came to the house, he was concerned about Nick and 3 said that we should, us being the parent we have to go there 4 and get him out of there. He was scared -- well, he feared 5 for him and I was still scared to leave the territory so my 6 wife went. 7 Q: So your cousin, Mr. Ron George, came to 8 see -- see you at the army -- at the built-up area of -- 9 A: Yeah, he came right to our house in 10 Building 37, yeah. 11 Q: In Building 37 and then your wife, Gina, 12 went -- did she go with Mr. Ron George? 13 A: I think so, yeah. 14 Q: And Mr. Ron George is a lawyer as well as 15 a -- now, a Provincial Police officer? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And -- 18 A: He was a police officer at that time. 19 Q: Pardon me? 20 A: He was a police officer at that time. I 21 can't remember the status with his lawyer -- how far he was 22 advancing that at the time. 23 Q: And -- but in any event, your wife -- did 24 your -- did your wife, Gina, go with Mr. Ron George to pick 25 up your son?
2251 A: I think so, yeah. 2 Q: They picked him up at Sathroy (phonetic) 3 Hospital? 4 A: I think at the police station. 5 Q: At the police station in Sathroy? 6 A: I think so, yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And on the morning of September 8 7th, did you go down to the Ministry of Natural Resources 9 parking lot on East Parkway? 10 A: No, I didn't. 11 Q: And... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: The -- on September 7th, did some 16 individuals from Oneida come to the Army Camp, to the built- 17 up area? 18 A: It was like any other reserve, yeah, 19 there was some there. 20 Q: And -- but did Mr. -- I think you said 21 earlier, Mr. Elijah came on -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- September 7th? And did -- and what 24 role did -- did you request or did someone from the Army 25 Camp, the built-up area, request that Mr. Elijah and Mr. --
2261 or -- and Mr. Anton be -- Anton be called? 2 A: At some point in time they were 3 requested, like as a -- a go-between. What do you call it, a 4 liaison? 5 Q: And -- 6 A: Between our people and -- and, I guess, 7 the Federal Government. That's who we were trying to get 8 attention of. 9 Q: And so you requested -- did you make the 10 request or did Mr. Glen George make the request -- 11 A: It was a combination. 12 Q: Combination? And did Mr. Anton and Mr. 13 Elijah then come to the built-up area onto the Stony Point? 14 A: I think Gord -- Gord Peters did, I'm 15 pretty sure, and -- yeah, they both came there. 16 Q: And what did Mr. Gord Peters do? 17 A: He just wanted to find out what -- or to 18 what we want, like, so he could go and speak for us at a 19 meeting that was supposed -- I guess the meeting was in 20 Kettle Point at a point in time later on. 21 Q: Okay. And... 22 A: Bruce -- Bruce more or less took -- well, 23 he, well -- he immediately took a role as like a healer. He 24 helped to calm us down, like, emotionally and to -- so we'd 25 be -- so we could relax. He helped with that.
2271 Q: He helped with that. And Mr. Anton, did 2 he help with that, too? 3 A: Well, with -- he had somebody around 4 there, women from their long house come down and sort of 5 like, I'd guess some people would call it a therapy. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: Yeah, and he offered help, so we got 8 their help, yeah. 9 Q: And did Mr. Elijah or Mr. Anton or anyone 10 else from Oneida assist in dealing with the Ontario 11 Provincial Police in the -- the weeks following the death of 12 Dudley George? 13 A: From there, I can't remember. There was 14 one (1) fellow, but I don't know where he was from. 15 Q: Is that Mr. Leyton Elijah? 16 A: Oh yeah, Leyton, yeah, Leyton was there. 17 He was, I gathered, in a -- head of the Onadoga (phonetic) 18 peacekeepers. That's the capacity I heard he was there. 19 Q: And what was the -- what -- where -- 20 A: To -- 21 Q: Onadoga peacekeepers? 22 A: They were peacekeepers for their Nation, 23 like, their own police force on their own reserve and there 24 was a need for -- I think on the military at the time, they 25 were -- we had an agreement to -- to police the outer
2281 perimeter of the territory. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: And that one (1) of -- that they would 4 take turns riding with -- with -- what the heck was it? A 5 police -- the Anishnaabek Police Force at the time, they 6 would ride in shifts -- would work in shifts. 7 Q: So, after the -- after the shooting on 8 September 6 a police officer from a Anishnaabek Police Force 9 came to assist? 10 A: I believe, yeah. 11 Q: And the Oneida peacekeepers came to 12 assist and worked with the Anishnaabek Police Service? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. Now, at some point, the SIU came 15 to the sandy parking lot and the Park in September. Did you 16 -- 17 A: It was days. We were kind of wondering 18 where they were. What was -- why -- what was the big holdup? 19 Q: And did anyone tell you what the holdup 20 was? 21 A: Well, we later heard that there was a 22 person being sent in there to see if the situation in the 23 Camp was still dangerous. And I heard that this person was 24 reporting back to the Chief in Kettle Point that the 25 situation is still dangerous in there. He didn't advise the
2291 SIU to go in. 2 Q: And you learned this some time? 3 A: Yes, I learned that from Jim Kennedy, one 4 (1) of the investigators. 5 Q: And that was after September '95? 6 A: After they were in the process of the 7 investigation, yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And -- 9 A: Because that was a question we asked him. 10 Why did it take so long? 11 Q: And can I -- did you visit the sandy 12 parking lot in and around September 9th? We've seen a video, 13 Mr. George, that shows a -- a barricade being built at the 14 intersection, as you -- if you look at P-88 -- on the sandy 15 parking lot of the side at the intersection of Army Camp Road 16 and East Parkway Drive. 17 And I'm just going to -- it's Exhibit 68, sir 18 -- and I'm just going to play -- we're going to get Exhibit 19 68 and just play it on the video machine. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think there's 24 a chance that you can finish with this Witness, so we'll just 25 stay with it. Is that --?
2301 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's what I would like 2 to do. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If it's okay with 5 everybody else? 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: You mean finish the 7 direct. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Finish the direct 9 examination. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean the 11 Examination-in-Chief. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sorry, Commissioner. 16 17 (VIDEO PLAYING) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: You'll see at 1:37 p.m. on September the 21 9th on Exhibit 68 there appears to be being built at the end 22 of East Parkway and -- the intersection of East Parkway and 23 Army Camp Road looks like a barricade. 24 A: I think we had a -- 25 Q: Pardon me?
2311 A: I think initially at first they had the 2 guys that came and supported, built a barricade in this area. 3 Q: And you're pointing to -- on Exhibit P-88 4 to the area where number 6 is marked on there, they built a 5 barricade across -- was it across the highway? 6 A: East Parkway Drive. 7 Q: East Parkway? And who built that, Mr. 8 George? 9 A: Mostly the guys from Oneida. 10 Q: And when was that built? 11 A: I think it would have to be 7th or the 12 8th. 13 Q: And were you down there when that was 14 being built? 15 A: Not while that was being built. 16 Q: And then -- 17 A: But I remember seeing it. 18 Q: Okay. And so it was then removed and 19 moved back to the sandy parking lot? 20 A: Yeah. It was moved from there and it 21 continued here in the sandy area. 22 Q: Well, it appears then on this -- this 23 video that they're off the -- on the northeast corner of -- 24 off the tarmac at the northeast corner of -- 25 A: In this area, yeah. Yeah, they were
2321 there for a -- at a time, yeah. 2 Q: But perhaps on your -- 3 A: But before that -- that was taken and 4 there was -- there was one (1) here but they moved it back 5 off the road. 6 Q: They moved it back. But this appears to 7 be off the road itself. 8 A: Yeah. And then that was later moved back 9 into the Park to the pump house. 10 Q: And were you -- were you down at the 11 sandy parking lot when this was being built or after it was 12 built? 13 A: After -- after it was built we had like a 14 little -- little circle and a bunch of us -- that's when 15 Bruce was helping to clean -- cleanse us off. Like a form of 16 healing. 17 Q: And how long did that barrier remain at 18 -- on the sandy parking lot or a barrier remain? 19 A: I'm not sure. It wasn't very long. I'd 20 have to say a week, a week at the most before it was moved 21 back further into the Park. 22 Q: It was moved right back into the Park? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And where was it set up in the Park? 25 A: East of the -- east from the creek.
2331 Q: And why was it set up in the Park? Was 2 it a ceremonial barricade or? 3 A: It was to provide cover, like to watch, 4 to make sure nothing else is going to happen. It was purely 5 to observe. 6 Q: And so this was -- this was manned by the 7 peacekeeper from Oneida? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And used by them? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And the -- in the spring of 1996 I 12 understand that you had a discussion with Mr. Gerald George? 13 A: Yeah. After that spring of '97 it would 14 be. 15 Q: '97? 16 A: Or '96, yeah. It was a time when -- I 17 remember because it's when all the loons, there was loons 18 dying and we picked up ourselves about two (2) pickup truck 19 loads along our part of the beach and buried them. It was a 20 nice day. Somebody came and got me and said that Gerald is 21 stuck down on the beach near the pump house and he's got -- 22 his name is Jonathon Wolfe (phonetic) was with him. We call 23 him John John and -- so I went down there. 24 I had two (2) witnesses with me, my brother- 25 in-law, Jerry Lewis (phonetic) and my buddy, Bob Thompson,
2341 and, yes, he was stuck down there in his truck. We figured 2 he was coming in maybe to steal picnic tables because that 3 was a big problem then. 4 And I confronted him, I asked him, Why did you 5 tell those cops we had all those guns? Which he remarked -- 6 he was kind of scared; he was shaking, he said, I was told to 7 say that. 8 Q: And did he say any -- did you ask him who 9 -- 10 A: No, I never. 11 Q: And did he say anything else? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And the -- we've heard evidence that some 14 of the residents of Stoney Point claim, in addition to the 15 Provincial Park, the -- the sandy parking lot and the land to 16 the west of the Park to Ravenswood Road, the cottages, the 17 area -- the land that the cottages are on, on the northeast 18 corner of the former Army Park Camp and Pinery Park 19 (phonetic), and can you tell me, with respect to these 20 portions of land, that -- what your position is as a 21 principle person with respect to them, the sandy parking lot, 22 for example -- what is -- 23 A: Well, the sandy parking lot is part of 24 the Park and the Park is part of Aazhoodena and those -- that 25 territory there is un-ceded territory and as -- as far as the
2351 Park and the other land you said about -- it would be west? 2 That's -- that's treaty lands, like -- which we have certain 3 rights through the treaty of, I think it's 1825 or '27. 4 Q: And -- so the lands to the west are -- 5 you distinguish between lands that were un-ceded and treaty 6 lands? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the lands -- the un-ceded lands that 9 you're concerned about are the lands that were the part of 10 what is now in the block -- if you look at P-40 -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- if you -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- drew the line straight from Highway 21 15 up to the lake, is that the un-ceded lands? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the cottages that are on the 18 northeast corner of the -- of the -- Exhibit P-40, that's 19 part of -- that are in the area -- 20 A: Right here? 21 Q: Yes. Those cottages are on what you 22 consider to be un-ceded lands? 23 A: Yes, they are. 24 Q: And, have you taken any steps or -- with 25 respect to those cottages?
2361 A: Not myself, no. 2 Q: And do you intend to? 3 A: We're going to leave that up to the 4 Federal Government to -- to make right. 5 Q: That's something that -- that you leave 6 up to the Federal Government to make a decision with respect 7 to that? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And, Pinery Park -- Pinery Park is part 10 of the treaty lands that was -- that were dealt with in the 11 1827 treaty? 12 A: Yes, they are. 13 Q: And, you and your group do not make a 14 claim other than whatever your rights are under the treaty to 15 Pinery Park? 16 A: Not -- not to a claim as -- to possess 17 it, but we have got certain rights to it. 18 Q: And, a claim -- I understand a claim to 19 possess it has been made by Mr. Paynard -- Maynard T. George? 20 A: I -- I think twice. 21 Q: Yes, and do you support the claim of Mr. 22 Maynard T. George? 23 A: No, we never. 24 Q: And when you were asked about the claim, 25 whether you supported the claim of Mr. Maynard T. George, you
2371 -- what did -- you -- I think you were asked about that claim 2 -- 3 A: Yes, I was. We were approached by the 4 OPP and asked if we condone his actions on the last time he 5 had a protest and we said, No, we don't support his claim. 6 Q: And you told that to the Ontario 7 Provincial Police? 8 A: Yes, we did. 9 Q: And that's your position today? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you tell me what you believe 12 might have prevented the incident that occurred and that 13 resulted in the death of Mr. Dudley George? 14 A: Well, you'd have to go back to the 15 federal government in the first place taking the land, and 16 then, well, the promise of to give it back, in which they 17 reneged on that as well. 18 And -- and us, like, we're doing what we're 19 doing and they don't seem to want to listen to us. I think 20 they -- just like the walk to Ottawa, you're not listening to 21 us and we have a perfect -- we were perfectly within our 22 rights to do what we're doing, to be where we are. 23 Q: And your concern is that the federal 24 government simply did not listen to your claims or -- and 25 listen to your grievances?
2381 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And that if the federal government had 3 done that, that this situation -- had listened and had acted, 4 this situation would not have arisen? 5 A: I'd have to say yes. 6 Q: And is there anything else you would like 7 to add, Mr. George, before we're finished today? Any... 8 A: No, not -- not really. I guess it's -- 9 no. I'd have to say no. 10 Q: All right. Thank you very much. 11 Commissioner, it's now 4:30, I suggest that we break until 12 tomorrow morning, unless you wanted to canvass everyone about 13 cross-examination? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Shall we do that 15 right now? I think so. Let's do that right now and get a 16 lay of the land. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, Mr. George, what 18 we're doing is just trying to find out who's going to 19 cross-examine you tomorrow. You'll have to come back 20 tomorrow at 10:00. 21 THE WITNESS: At 10:00? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At ten o'clock, yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 24 George? So, come back tomorrow morning. 25 How many think they're going to need to cross-
2391 examine Mr. George, would you please stand up so I can get a 2 look. Okay, let's start with Mr. Orkin. Mr. Orkin ...? 3 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I anticipate half an hour, 4 Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Half an hour. 6 Ms. Esmonde...? 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Fifteen (15) to twenty 8 (20) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) to 10 twenty (20) minutes. Any other Aboriginal parties? I guess 11 Mr. Henderson. 12 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Possibly fifteen (15) 13 minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, on behalf 15 of the Chiefs. 16 MR. MATTHEW HORNER: Possibly ten (10) 17 minutes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 19 minutes. Not the government? The OPP? 20 MS. LESLIE KAUFMAN: Commissioner, Ms. 21 Tuck-Jackson will be here tomorrow, but I'd say at least an 22 hour, an hour and a half. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And the OPPA? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: About three (3) hours. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About three (3)
2401 hours? Mr. Harris -- on behalf of Mr. Harris, Mr. 2 Downard...? 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I reserve an hour to 4 ninety (90) minutes, subject to the -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. I'm 6 not sure -- 7 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Maybe ten (10) or fifteen 8 (15) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. And 10 Mr. Sulman on behalf of Mr. Beaubien? 11 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Ten (10) to fifteen (15) 12 minutes, Your Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. O'Marra, on 14 behalf of the Coroner? 15 MR. AL O'MARRA: I'll reserve ten (10) 16 minutes, although I won't be here. Mr. Robert -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 That's fine. We'll start at ten o'clock tomorrow and see how 19 far we get. Thank you all very much. 20 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm sorry. 22 I forgot Mr. Ross. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Ross acts for Mr. 24 George, so... 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross.
2411 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Ross will have -- 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Some time. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It depends on 4 what happens between now and then. Thank you very much, Mr. 5 Ross. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, sir, 7 and thank you very much, Mr. George. 8 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 9 10 (WITNESS RETIRES) 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 13 Public Inquiry is adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, 14 November 24th at 10:00 a.m. 15 16 --- Upon adjourning at 4:36 p.m. 17 18 Certified Correct 19 20 21 22 23 _________________________ 24 Dustin Warnock 25 Court Reporter