11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 22nd, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) (np) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena 18 (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Maureen Smith )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) (np) Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 BONNIE BRESSETTE, Recalled 6 Re-Re-Direct-Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 8 7 Re-Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 14 8 Re-Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 15 9 Re-Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 18 10 11 STACEY GEORGE, Sworn 12 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 26 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 134 14 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 136 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 145 16 Cross-Examination by Ms. Leslie Kaufman 152 17 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian McGilp 169 18 19 Certificate of Transcript 219 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-83 Ipperwash Inquiry Telephone Calls 4 (2), Bonnie Bressette and Inspector 5 John Carson, Sept 07/95 04:35 a.m. 10 6 P-84 Document 1002409, Page 13, Map Of 7 Ipperwash Reserve Marked by Witness Stacey 8 Vaughn George, Nov 22/04 127 9 P-85 Schematic Diagram Of Military Barracks, 10 Camp Ipperwash, 13 Feb/96, Doc 2002436, 11 Page 35, Marked by witness Stacey Vaughn 12 George, Nov 22/04 131 13 P-86 "Stan" Thompson Drawing, Sept 20/95, 14 Marked by Witness Stacey Vaughn George, 15 Nov 22/04 132 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:33 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: Order, all rise, please. 4 This Public Inquiry is now in session, the Honourable Mr. 5 Justice Linden presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 12 Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 14 morning, Mr. Millar. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The -- this week, just 16 for -- to let everybody know what the game plan is, we'll 17 start -- we're starting today at 10:30; we'll go until 18 five o'clock today. Tomorrow we'll start at the usual 19 time, 10:00 and go to 4:30, Wednesday the same, and then 20 Thursday we'll start at 9:00 and go to 3:30. 21 We are calling, this week -- Mrs. Bonnie 22 Bressette is back for a very short period of time. We 23 will then be calling Mr. Stacey George and then Mr. 24 Roderick George and then, if time permits, Mr. Buck -- 25 Isaac Doxtator and I don't know if we'll reach Mr.
81 Doxtator or not. 2 And so, the first witness is Mrs. Bonnie 3 Bressette and Mrs. Bressette, you've been -- you're still 4 under -- still -- having been taken the alternate oath, 5 are still under that oath. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 8 BONNIE BRESSETTE, Recalled 9 10 RE-RE-DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Last time that we were here, there 12 was a -- a question about certain telephone calls between 13 you and Mr. Carson of the Ontario Provincial Police. Do 14 you recall that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And at the time, we did not have the 17 calls available so that you could listen to them and you 18 answered the questions as best you could from your 19 memory. 20 I now have the calls and I understand that 21 you've had a chance to hear them -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- and perhaps, Commissioner, what 24 I'm going to do is, I will play the first call and it was 25 made at 4:42 a.m. on September 7th, 1995.
91 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 2 3 Q: Ms. Bressette, you recognize your 4 voice on that tape? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the other voice on the tape you 7 understood to be Inspector John Carson? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the -- do you recall having heard 10 the conversation, do you recall this particular 11 conversation? 12 A: I recall portions of it. 13 Q: And we went through it last time and 14 does it assist in -- in reminding you of any of the other 15 parts that you were asked about last time? 16 A: The only part that I could really 17 recall was when I was looking for Melva and Marcia. 18 Q: Okay. And then Inspector -- as we 19 heard when you were here before, Inspector Carson called 20 you back and I'll now play the second tape, Commissioner. 21 22 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 23 24 Q: Commissioner, that call was at 4:53 25 a.m. on the morning of September 7th and Mrs. Bressette,
101 I take it you recognize your voice on that -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the other person was Inspector 4 Carson? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And perhaps we could mark the -- I've 7 given the Registrar a CD Rom with both conversations on, 8 as the next exhibit. It would be Exhibit 83. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-83, Your Honour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-83: Ipperwash Inquiry Telephone 14 Calls(2), Bonnie Bressette 15 and Inspector John Carson, 16 Sept 07/95 04:35 a.m. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And Mrs. Bressette, do you recall you 20 returned to the Army Camp after this call with Inspector 21 Carson? 22 A: I would say yes, because I kept going 23 back. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: But it's hard to explain to somebody
111 that -- how you're -- there's so many things running 2 through your mind and mine was to try and make sure that 3 the messages from where we were at Plaza, where everybody 4 at Kettle Point was worried about the people at Stony 5 Point to get the messages back and forth and then to pick 6 up whoever wanted to come to Kettle Point. 7 Q: And I appreciate that it's very 8 difficult, it's nine (9) years ago and -- and it was a 9 very traumatic night, but do you recall passing Inspector 10 Carson's message on to the people at Stony Point that the 11 OPP wished to negotiate and that no one would be going on 12 to Stony Point? 13 A: I think probably all I can recall is 14 telling whoever was down there when I went back again 15 that there was going to be nobody coming in to attack 16 them. 17 Q: And when you first went in, you told 18 us last time that you spoke to Mr. Glenn George about the 19 children and -- do you recall that? 20 A: No, I didn't speak about the 21 children. As best as I can recall, when I looked -- I 22 was looking for Glenn and Judas and I seen Glenn and I 23 asked him what we could do and he says, well, get the 24 kids out of here because at that time that was before 25 that message from Carson came.
121 Q: Thank you, I -- you're right. I 2 misspoke myself. But do you recall when -- at -- when 3 you were speaking to Mr. Glenn George if other people 4 were around? 5 A: There was quite a few people there 6 but I never paid any attention. I was talking -- looking 7 for him. 8 Q: And do you recall seeing, at the time 9 you went in the first time, either Mr. David George or 10 Mr. Elwood George, or Robert Isaac around? 11 A: I can't even recall who was there. I 12 -- I know they were there, but I didn't see them or -- to 13 pick up their faces in the -- in the crowd. 14 Q: And you told us last time that you 15 told Mr. Glenn George and the others that Mr. Cecil 16 Bernard George had been injured. Do you recall that, 17 Mrs. Bressette? 18 A: What I had been told at Kettle Point 19 when I got down there, I asked what happened and they 20 said Dudley got shot and they said that Bernard got 21 beaten up. 22 Q: And do you recall saying that Mr. 23 Cecil Bernard George had been shot in the head once he 24 was in custody? 25 A: No, I don't.
131 Q: And do you recall saying that the OPP 2 had executed Cecil Bernard George? 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: And when I asked you whether you 5 recall saying that, do you think you might have said that 6 or you would not have said that? 7 A: I -- I would not have said that 8 because all I was told when I got there was that Bernard 9 had been beaten up, Dudley had been shot. 10 Q: Thank you very much. Those are my 11 questions, Commissioner. I don't know if any of the 12 Counsel for the other Parties have any questions arising 13 out of that. We recalled Mrs. Bressette principally to 14 identify the two (2) telephone calls that we didn't have 15 the last time. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I suppose we 17 should give people an opportunity to cross-examine if 18 they wish to. 19 Does anybody have any cross-examination of 20 that part? You do, Mr. Orkin? And you do as well, Ms. 21 Jones? Okay, how long do you think you might be on this, 22 Mr. Orkin? 23 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Two (2) minutes, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry?
141 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: One (1) minute. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One (1) 3 minute? And Mr. Ross...? 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Perhaps five (5) 5 minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 7 minutes? And Ms. Jones...? 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Perhaps ten (10) 9 minutes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 11 get into it, then. Why don't you start, Mr. Orkin? 12 13 RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 14 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Good 15 morning, Mrs. Bressette. 16 A: Good morning. 17 Q: One (1) very short question. In 18 preparation for your testimony today with Commission 19 Counsel, did anyone play any conversations from September 20 the 5th or September the 6th, 1995, as context for the 21 tapes that we've just heard? 22 A: Can you repeat that? 23 Q: Yes. In preparing for your listening 24 to these tapes this morning and answering the questions 25 that you just did, did anyone play you any other tapes
151 from September the 5th or September the 6th -- the -- 2 these tapes were from September the 7th, as a context for 3 these tapes? 4 A: These tapes were from the day -- the 5 night Dudley got shot. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: No, I haven't heard any other tapes. 8 Q: Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much. Mr. Ross...? Is this your client, Mr. Ross? 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 13 should go last. No? 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No, it is not. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, it's 16 not. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's -- Commissioner, 18 it's Mr. Henderson's client. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, that's 20 fine. So, Mr. Ross goes now. 21 22 RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 23 Q: Thank you. Ms. Bressette, thanks for 24 coming back again. Commission Counsel suggested to you 25 that at the second conversation with Carson that there
161 was a suggestion that the OPP wanted to negotiate. Now, 2 I didn't get that from the tape. I think it was denied 3 in there that there were -- no massive force would be 4 used -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 6 Q: -- but there was no expression that 7 the OPP wanted to negotiate, was there? 8 A: I'm having a had time recalling 9 because the most important thing to me at that time was 10 finding out where Melva and Marcia was and that nobody 11 was going to -- but I was carrying out what was asked of 12 me and that was to get hold of Bruce and Bob and find out 13 where Melva and Marcia was. 14 So I really have a hard time -- I know 15 that's my voice on there, but to recall all of the 16 conversation, I have a hard time because I wouldn't have 17 -- when they were -- when I was here before, when they 18 spoke about telephone calls, I didn't even recall them 19 until I heard them myself. 20 Q: Sure. 21 A: And then I recalled when I was asking 22 about Melva and I didn't say my aunt. I said Melva and 23 Marcia. 24 Q: Very good. Now another thing is that 25 in the conversation from Carson, I recall that he
171 appeared to be asking you whether or not you were using 2 the cell phone. Am I correct to that, counsel? Yeah. 3 Counsel was asking, if you were using the cell phone. 4 I'm just wondering, did Carson at any time give you a 5 cell phone? 6 A: No. I had Chief Bressette's cell 7 phone, but I didn't know how to work it. 8 Q: I see. Well then perhaps I should 9 ask Carson how did he know that you had a cell phone as 10 opposed to just an ordinary phone. You wouldn't be able 11 to answer that? 12 A: I -- I don't know. 13 Q: Thank you very much. No further 14 questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 16 Mr. Ross. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, Commissioner, 18 before Ms. Jones asks her questions, the word negotiate 19 was my word. On the tape it was, Inspector Carson said 20 they have plenty of time to talk. So I take Mr. Ross' 21 point and Inspector Carson did not use the word 22 negotiate. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 24 Jones...? 25
181 RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: Good morning, Ms. Bressette. Ms. 3 Bressette, I just have a couple of questions for you that 4 arise out of the telephone call. And you had told Mr. 5 Carson that you had been asked to call Bruce Elijah and 6 Bob Antone. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you had said that you would call 9 them. And I wanted to find out did you know Bruce Elijah 10 or Bob Antone prior to -- 11 A: Yes, I know them. 12 Q: Okay. How -- how do you know Bruce 13 Elijah and Bob Antone? 14 A: Bruce Elijah was the gentleman that 15 buried my mother in our traditional ceremony. 16 Q: Okay. And he's from -- 17 A: And he's always been a friend because 18 whenever we needed him he's always been there. 19 Q: Okay. And he's from Oneida? 20 A: Oneida. 21 Q: Okay. And did you know Bob Antone 22 before? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And how did you know Bob? 25 A: I knew Bob from working with our
191 First Nations in this area, and I knew him just as a 2 friend. 3 Q: Okay. And did you know about Bruce 4 Elijah's background and his work after some of the 5 confrontations that had happened at Oneida and Awisawne 6 (phonetic) and some of those other confrontations? 7 A: No, I heard about it but not to talk 8 with him about it. 9 Q: Okay. One of the questions that you 10 had -- you had been asked some questions when you first 11 came here to give evidence about minutes of a Band 12 meeting that were held in August of 1995? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I just wanted to ask you another 15 question about that, about Bruce Elijah and for the 16 assistance of the Commissioner and counsel, it's 17 Commission Document 1011116, and there was a reference in 18 there of a statement that Gladys Lennom (phonetic) had 19 made. 20 And I just wanted to read it to you and in 21 light, now, of what you've told us about Bruce if you 22 wanted to comment on that any further. 23 According to these minutes what Gladys said was: 24 "Last Thursday I went down to the beach 25 and they told me they didn't want me to
201 sit there. There was a man across from 2 me, a stranger, and I asked what he was 3 doing there. He said his name was 4 Bruce Elijah and he was hired by the 5 Kettle Point Band to talk to the 6 People. 7 He said he was a shit disturber. I 8 heard enough. In a few minutes he was 9 telling the People to go the Oka way to 10 settle things. There were other people 11 from different Bands." 12 Do you recall Gladys saying that at that 13 meeting? 14 A: I recall Gladys saying at that 15 general Band meeting. 16 Q: Yeah. And did her comments have any 17 affect on you about whether or not it would be a wise 18 thing to call Bruce Elijah? 19 A: No. Because the Bruce that I know I 20 would not say that about him. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And the other thing I want to ask you 23 about, Ms. Bressette, was in the first conversation with 24 John Carson, you told him that you had been down this 25 afternoon, and by that I take it he had -- you had been
211 down to the Park in the afternoon and you had asked 2 people, What can we do? And also, you'd said what would 3 it -- what would make you leave here? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. Did you have conversations 6 with people in the Park on the afternoon on September the 7 6th -- 8 A: No -- 9 Q: -- about what would it -- what would 10 it take to make them leave the Park? 11 A: No, because to me it would be -- when 12 I was down there it was very -- I was very uneasy because 13 of the police and to see them in the line across the road 14 and -- because most everybody in there was my cousins and 15 -- and if you've never been in the situation where you 16 see what I seen, it's -- and the helicopter's right 17 overhead and you see a man up there with a gun and there 18 was one (1) with a camera. It's -- it's frightening. 19 And I had said to -- Glenn and I were 20 talking and I had said it was -- I was scared, I cried 21 and it wasn't until after talking with them because if 22 anything, I would have liked them to have left, because 23 when you see guns across the road and you know people on 24 this side of the road are there for a purpose and they 25 don't have anything except a stick, I never like to see
221 anybody get hurt in anything and that would be why I 2 would have wanted them to leave, but after I sat and 3 visited with them, I was able to settle down and I left 4 and I came back. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. So your -- so your 8 discussions, then, with Glenn and maybe others wouldn't 9 have been, what would it take to make you leave here? 10 A: No, it would have been -- because I 11 felt, as a person on the outside, that we weren't 12 listening enough to the reason they were in there. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: When there is split among people who 15 have an obligation -- and I'll say that -- to see that 16 our people are safe and yet you don't know how to remove 17 that split. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: So, that was my -- because, first of 20 all, they're my family and that's one (1) thing on a 21 Anishnaabe community, it don't matter whether somebody is 22 someplace that is not of my blood, they are all our 23 family. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: When -- and to me it was trying to --
231 and hoping that everybody would be safe. I never ever 2 thought that situation would happen. I left there 3 feeling good. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: I thought the boys are okay and the 6 girls that's in there are okay and I had every intention 7 of coming back that night and my husband did go back, but 8 it was too late because he was -- he was down there and 9 he run into police in the ditches and stuff like that, 10 but that's -- my concern was -- and they were quite 11 comfortable that nobody was going to bother them. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: And this is where I -- I still can't 14 believe. 15 Q: It's hard to hear those -- those 16 phone calls. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: It -- when you're -- when you want 20 everybody to be safe, it's hard. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: When you're -- when something like 23 this happens. 24 Q: Yeah. Okay. 25 A: And I think, you know, that's one (1)
241 thing the Commission here does not understand is, you 2 don't see very many of our People out at these hearings 3 because nobody wants to re-live it. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: They want to find out why this 6 happened, what can we do that it not happen again to 7 anybody, and -- but the hard part is living it over 8 again, even if it was nine (9) years ago. 9 Q: Yeah, it's very hard. 10 A: It is. 11 Q: Yeah. Ms. Bressette, I don't have 12 any more questions. Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much, Ms. Jones. Thank you very much, Ms. 15 Bressette. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mrs. 18 Bressette. Thank you very much for coming again. 19 20 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 21 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could take 23 five (5) minutes to set up for our next witness, sir? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should we 25 stay in the room or take a short break?
251 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Take a short break, 2 perhaps for five (5) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A short 4 break? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 6 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 7 Inquiry will recess for five (5) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 11:05 a.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 11:33 a.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed. Please be seated. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you for that, 15 Commissioner. We had a bit of a technical difficulty. 16 We have not been able to solve that just yet but we -- 17 we'll choose to go ahead and proceed at this moment and 18 perhaps during the lunch hour -- lunch break make every 19 effort so that we can get the images up on the screen so 20 that other Counsel can follow. 21 But in the meantime, we can certainly work 22 with the hard copies that we have and we can have those 23 marked as exhibits. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, let's 25 get on.
261 MR. DONALD WORME: The next witness, then, 2 is Stacey George. 3 4 STACEY GEORGE, Sworn: 5 6 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: Now, Mr. George you were born on the 8 13th of September, 1971? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that would make you thirty-three 11 (33) years of age today? 12 A: Thirty-three (33). 13 Q: And in September -- on September the 14 6th, specifically, of 1995, you were twenty-four (24) 15 years of age? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. You currently reside in the 18 City of Calgary in the Province of Alberta? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you're employed there. I wonder 21 if you might just tell us a bit about that, what -- what 22 it is that do there? 23 A: I was painting at first, like, it got 24 cold out and I couldn't paint houses no more, exteriors. 25 So we needed money real quick and the only place that I
271 knew how to get money real fast was like labour -- labour 2 -- like trades labours so we went to a place called TLC 3 and I'm still there right now. 4 Q: You're working as a construction 5 labourer through that particular company? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you have been since moving to 8 Calgary in August of 2004? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now you were also known as -- by the 11 -- by the nickname Burger, is that right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. I understand that -- that your 14 mom, Geneva George who was here today to support you, had 15 something to do with giving you that name? 16 A: It was my friends. 17 Q: Okay. You were born, as I understand 18 it, Mr. George, in Sarnia and raised at Kettle Point 19 Reserve? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you grew up there with your late 22 father, Cecil Arnold George? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- and your mother? All right. 25 And I'm given to understand that your maternal
281 grandparents, Elma Wild and Archie Bressette were both 2 from Stoney Point? 3 A: Elma -- Elma Wild was, she's a 4 Potawatomi from Stoney Point and my grandpa, he was from 5 Kettle Point, but they both lived on Stoney Point. 6 Q: All right. I notice that you're 7 referring to the document, I wonder if you wouldn't mind 8 just closing that up, Mr. George? 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: Thank you. Your grand -- your 11 maternal grandparents, that is to say, your mother's 12 parents, then, were required to leave Stoney Point when 13 that land was appropriated in 1942? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. I gather you would have 16 known about this through discussions with other family 17 members, perhaps from your -- your mother? 18 A: It was family knowledge of what 19 happened and -- 20 Q: All right. Your brothers and sisters 21 -- I wonder if you could just name them for us in -- if 22 you could just name your brothers and sisters for us, 23 please? 24 A: Selena George, Delbert George, 25 Jeremiah George, Bernard Cecil George, Stan George,
291 Thomas George, Norma George, Judy Bloom, and Jessie 2 George. 3 Q: All right. You mentioned Cecil 4 Bernard George. He is the Councillor with Kettle Point 5 at this time? 6 A: No, he was in 199 -- 7 Q: In 1995, he was a -- a Councillor 8 with Kettle Point -- Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And again, just with 11 respect to your maternal grandparents, can you tell us 12 anything about the land that they had left behind or how 13 it was that they had made their living? 14 A: They -- they had a -- a big house and 15 a big barn and they had an orchard and a big garden and 16 horses and pigs and cows and stuff. 17 Q: And when they were moved to Kettle 18 Point, how did they survive at that time or -- or do you 19 know? 20 A: I don't know. 21 Q: Okay. Your father's parents are 22 Harvey and Dora George? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I understand you never had an 25 opportunity to meet them?
301 A: I never got to meet none of my 2 grandparents. 3 Q: Okay. And just before I leave your - 4 - you -- you said that your grandmother, Elma Wild was 5 from Stoney Point, do you know where their land was 6 located? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And where -- where was that? Or 9 where -- where was it located? 10 A: It was located on the rifle range. 11 Q: You have a -- a map of the Ipperwash 12 Military Reserve, I think it's titled, in front of you? 13 And there's a red pen there beside you, Mr. George, I 14 wonder if you could just maybe mark that area of where 15 your grandparents' land was and if you could put a number 16 1 there, please? I think there might be a red pen there 17 as opposed to a marker. 18 All right. And do you know how much land 19 that they had there at the location where you've just 20 marked, Mr. George? 21 A: It was either forty (40) acres or 22 eighty (80). 23 Q: All right. And in terms of your 24 family history, I understand that you had other relatives 25 that served in the military. Can you tell us anything
311 about that? 2 A: My mom's older brother, his name was 3 Lloyd Bressette and his name is on the memorial right 4 outside this building. 5 Q: And I take it that he had died in -- 6 in combat, did he? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I see. You would have learned about 9 the history of Stoney Point, I think you've indicated 10 earlier, through discussions or it was family knowledge. 11 Is that what I heard you to say? 12 A: Yes, it was family knowledge, yeah. 13 Our family came from Stoney Point. 14 Q: And I understand that your mother had 15 a fairly large family as well? 16 A: Yes. She had seven (7) brothers and 17 one (1) sister. 18 Q: Okay. And as a result of learning 19 this family history, and particularly the fact that the 20 land was appropriated, what more did you understand about 21 that? 22 Was -- was the land to be returned at any 23 time? 24 A: There was always promises, promises. 25 You know, we're going to return the land but it was
321 always just promises. Nothing ever became of it. 2 Q: Okay. And I understand, Mr. George, 3 that there were a number of demonstrations and protests 4 that would have taken place, and that as a child you may 5 have been able to recall? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Can you tell us about that? 8 A: As a child, one of the things that I 9 was taught is that one of these days, you're going to 10 have to stand up for your rights and you're going to have 11 to fight for them. 12 And I was taught that during some time 13 you're going to have to fight for your land and, you 14 know, even as a kid when there was protests, we'd go down 15 and hold up signs and then if my cousins or whatever 16 would camp outside the gate, I was there. 17 Q: Okay. And when you say "camp outside 18 the gate"; what are you referring to, Mr. George? 19 A: Right outside the main gate before 20 you go into the -- into the barracks. We would have, 21 like, little tents set up and we'd stay there overnight 22 or whatever. 23 Q: Okay. Do you know how old you might 24 have been when you would have first participated in these 25 sorts of things? That is, camping outside the main gates
331 of what was Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash? 2 A: I was young. Could have been seven 3 (7) or eight (8). 4 Q: All right. Were there any other 5 kinds of protests or demonstrations that you were aware 6 of or that you participated in? 7 A: Every time there was a protest I was 8 there. 9 Q: And how often would that be? 10 A: I'm not too sure. 11 Q: Okay. And this carried on even as -- 12 as you grew up? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. There was an event, 15 perhaps, in and around 1993, that -- where a number of 16 individuals had walked to Ottawa. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Were you involved in that, Mr. 19 George? Can you tell us anything about that? When that 20 was? 21 A: I remember -- I don't know the date 22 or when it was but I was one (1) of them that walked 23 there, it was to ways -- raise awareness about Stony 24 Point. 25 Q: Okay. And raise awareness with who,
341 Mr. George? 2 A: The rest of the world. 3 Q: Right. Any particular reason Ottawa 4 was chosen as a destination? 5 A: Is -- you know, like, the main 6 Capital of Canada whatever, the Prime Minister and 7 whatever's there, so why not go there? 8 Q: Okay, so you wanted to raise 9 awareness with and among the politicians. Is that fair? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. At some point in time you 12 became aware that a number of other Stoney Pointers had 13 moved to the Army Base. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Do you know when that was? 16 A: It was in May of '93, I'm quite sure. 17 Q: Okay. And you joined them at some 18 time? 19 A: It was that very day. 20 Q: Okay. Were you in the main group 21 that initially went in or did you arrive at some later 22 period? 23 A: I was there when they crossed over 24 the fence. 25 Q: Okay. And then can you tell us what
351 happened and what you did? 2 A: We just crawled over the fence and 3 set up our tents. 4 Q: Okay. Again, with respect to the map 5 that you have in front of you, if you could take that pen 6 and perhaps mark where you would have set your tent up, 7 initially; if you could put a number 2 there? 8 When you say "we crossed over the fence 9 and set up our tents," who do you mean, Mr. George? Who 10 -- who were you with? 11 A: There was like different families 12 there. Like, let me see. There was the Cloud family, 13 the Mannon (phonetic) family. I can't recall. 14 Q: Was there anybody that you would have 15 hung around with that would have been in your age group? 16 That is to say twenty (20), early 20's? 17 A: It was the Cloud family boys. 18 Q: And when you set your tent up were 19 you staying with anybody then? 20 A: No. I just had my own tent. 21 Q: And do you recall whether or not 22 there was any interaction with any military personnel on 23 the day that people went into the -- to the Army Camp? 24 A: I'm quite sure there was talk going 25 on.
361 Q: Can you tell us about that, what it 2 is that you're quite sure about? 3 A: I -- I didn't directly hear no 4 conversations or anything like that but I remember them 5 being there. 6 Q: And when you say they, you mean? 7 A: The military. 8 Q: Okay. And do you know what happened 9 in terms of them being there and that there was some 10 talk? 11 A: They were, I don't know, telling -- 12 telling us to leave or trying to make us leave or 13 something. 14 Q: Okay. Did you hear any discussion 15 about there being, you know, that you were trespassers or 16 there would be any kind of legal action taken to remove 17 people? 18 A: There were different times that we 19 would hear that they were trying to get court injunctions 20 to move us off. 21 Q: Do you know what the response was by 22 the -- the other people that had moved onto the Army 23 Camp? What -- what was your response, first of all? 24 A: My response was, why? We already 25 said we're going to move on -- back onto the lands, so we
371 stay. 2 Q: All right. After moving into the -- 3 into the Camp then and deciding that you were going to 4 stay, what other interaction did you have with military 5 personnel, if any? 6 A: There was hardly any talking and 7 stuff like that, but at the same time that we were there, 8 the military kept their military operations going. 9 Because it was -- like the cadets were there and they 10 were still doing their training and what not, so we seen 11 them almost every day. 12 Q: Okay. And when you'd see these 13 cadets, what were they doing and where would you see 14 them? 15 A: Sometime they would go marching by 16 our camps and they would go back to the grenade range and 17 throw grenades around or -- or they would go the rifle 18 range and start shooting around. 19 Q: What affect if any, did this have on 20 -- on the people who had moved onto the Base? 21 A: The worst time would be when they 22 went back to the grenade range and started throwing 23 grenades around because that got the kids scared and the 24 Elders. 25 Q: From the -- the explosions?
381 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. As a result of that, did 3 anybody leave the Army Camp? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And I gather that that stopped did it 6 or did that kind of activity on the part of the military 7 continue? 8 A: There was one incident that happened 9 and after that they -- they quit throwing the grenades 10 anyway. It was me and -- me and my friend -- because at 11 the time that they were throwing grenades around, they 12 wouldn't let no one down that road but we went walking 13 down that road and there -- there's like dudes on outpost 14 or whatever and they're like civilian. And so they had 15 to stop. 16 Q: All right. And just so -- just so 17 I'm clear, the grenade -- the grenades that were going on 18 -- the grenade range that you referred to, that is marked 19 on that map that you have in front of you? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And how far would the camps be from 22 that range where they were throwing grenades, as you put 23 it? 24 A: Maybe half a mile -- quarter mile. 25 Q: That would be the nearest camp?
391 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. Other than seeing 3 military personnel cadets and that marching past your 4 camp, was there any other place that you might see them 5 or observe them? 6 A: We always ran into them all over the 7 place, like in the bush and -- because we'd be like, 8 riding around and we'd just run into them everywhere. 9 Q: And when you say "everywhere", you 10 mean everywhere within the -- the Army Base? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. Now, we're told that 13 during that first year of the occupation that there was a 14 council of Elders that -- that had assembled? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Do you recall who those might have 17 been, Mr. George? 18 A: I can remember a few people, but I -- 19 I can't remember them all because I don't know. 20 Q: Well, who do you remember? 21 A: I remember, like, maybe Janet Cloud 22 and maybe Gladys Loon (phonetic), Rose Manning, maybe my 23 mom was on there. I'm not too sure. 24 Q: Okay. And what about Clifford 25 George?
401 A: Yes, he was one (1). 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And I don't -- I can't recall 4 everybody. 5 Q: And do you know what duties or -- or 6 what activities that this Council would involve 7 themselves with? 8 A: Just -- I don't know, like, day-to- 9 day planning what they're going to do next or whatnot. 10 Q: Okay. And we're also led to 11 understand that there has -- that there was a chief and 12 council, perhaps, that was elected? 13 A: Yeah, at one given time there was. 14 Q: Do you recall when that was? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Do you recall who it was that was 17 elected? 18 A: I think it was Carl George. 19 Q: All right. And then he was replaced 20 at some point? 21 A: Yeah, I think he was replaced by 22 Maynard George. 23 Q: And you're referring to Maynard T. 24 George? 25 A: Yes.
411 Q: Okay. Do you know the reason for -- 2 for replacing -- why Mr. Carl George was replaced? 3 A: I'm not too sure. 4 Q: All right. And during the summer 5 when the army personnel would be marching by or they'd be 6 going by doing patrols, there would be some interaction 7 between the Occupiers and the Military? I wonder if you 8 could tell us something about that, Mr. George? 9 A: What do you mean, interaction? 10 Q: Well, there'd be things said, 11 perhaps, there'd be discussions or comments. 12 A: We would always swear at them when 13 they went walking by. 14 Q: What sort of things would be said? 15 A: You know, like, what are you guys 16 doing here? Get off our land. 17 Q: Okay. And was -- would anything be 18 said back from them? 19 A: Usually they wouldn't say nothing. 20 Q: All right. And specifically, you 21 were -- or became familiar with the late Dudley George? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: He was one of the people that was in 24 the occupation. 25 A: Yes.
421 Q: And what can you tell us about him? 2 How well did you know him prior to your arriving and 3 joining the -- the occupation at the Army Camp? 4 A: I didn't know him all that well until 5 he moved down on Stoney Point. Like, I knew who he was, 6 but that was that and I didn't get to know him until 7 later. 8 Q: And when you say, "later", you mean 9 during the time of the occupation; is it? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay, and what did you get to know 12 about him? 13 A: He was a really fun man to be around. 14 He had a -- 15 Q: And why do you say that? 16 A: He had a really good outgoing 17 personality on him. He was like one of these people that 18 would make you laugh all day. 19 Q: Okay. Did you see whether or not he 20 had any interaction with any of the military? 21 A: He's one of these real outspoken 22 dudes that likes to swear at authority figures. 23 Q: Okay. And you would have seen this? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Do you know whether that -- whether
431 the comments that he would -- that he would have in 2 relation to the military personnel or authority figures, 3 whether any of that was returned? 4 A: I don't think so. 5 Q: You've told us earlier about a 6 Council of Elders and I understand that there were some 7 meetings between this Council and military personnel, 8 regarding the Court injunctions you've told us about 9 earlier or other measures that may be taken to have 10 people leave the Camp? 11 A: I'm quite sure that there -- there 12 was, because they would, like, come and talk but I -- I 13 was always just watching. I never, ever interacted or go 14 and listen to what they're actually saying. 15 Q: All right. So you would see that 16 there were meetings taking place? Is that what I 17 understand? But you didn't hear what the discussions 18 were? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And would you be told later as to the 21 nature of the discussions? 22 A: Yeah, basically. And it was always 23 that they were trying to get us off. 24 Q: All right. Did you ever see or did 25 you ever hear of there being Court papers delivered or
441 anything like that, demanding that -- that you would 2 leave the -- the Army camp? 3 A: Did I see any? 4 Q: Yeah, had you seen any? 5 A: I don't think so. 6 Q: Prior to moving into the Army camp in 7 May of '93, I understand you'd been there on other 8 occasions, Mr. George? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And the purpose for being there on 11 other occasions, prior to '93? 12 A: We'd go hunting. 13 Q: What would you hunt there? 14 A: Deer. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And when you say, "we'd go hunting 19 there"; who -- who do you mean? 20 A: My friends, my family, my uncles 21 would go down there, like, in the spring time and go look 22 for morales and then -- and in the fall time we'd go down 23 and blast a couple of ducks or whatever and go get a 24 deer. 25 Q: And morales, I -- I'm told, are a
451 kind of a mushroom? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. So there'd be gathering 4 activities as well as hunting, is that -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- that fair? At the time of the 7 occupation, then, of the Army Camp in '93 and on, did you 8 still hunt? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: What would you hunt with, Mr. George? 11 A: Either .22 or a shotgun. 12 Q: Were these your weapons? 13 A: No. 14 Q: You would borrow them, maybe? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And do you know where the 17 -- where the guns were stored once you were at the -- at 18 the Army Camp? 19 A: Either at my mom's or my brother's. 20 Q: And your mom's or brother's, that 21 would be where? 22 A: In Kettle Point. 23 Q: Okay. Was there any reason that you 24 wouldn't, if you're going hunting at the Army Base, that 25 you wouldn't keep your guns there?
461 A: We were instructed not to bring any 2 weapons in. Just -- only for hunting purposes. 3 Q: Okay. And who instructed you to do 4 this? 5 A: I think it was the Council of Elders. 6 Q: All right. Do you know whether or 7 not Dudley George owned any firearms or did you ever see 8 him with a firearm? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Do you know -- perhaps I should ask 11 you those separately. Do you know whether or not he 12 owned a firearm? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you ever see him with a firearm? 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. There had been a ceremony 17 that was described as a bury the hatchet ceremony. Do 18 you recall that, Mr. George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Can you tell us what that was about 21 and when that occurred? Who all was there? 22 A: I can't recall who conducted the 23 ceremony and I can't recall who was there. There was 24 quite a few people there but the ceremony was to signify 25 that there will be no weapons used in this occupation and
471 that it would be a peaceful one. 2 Q: All right. And did that continue 3 throughout as far as -- as far as you're aware? 4 A: Right to this day. 5 Q: Now you were at the Camp on -- on an 6 occasion when it is alleged that a military helicopter 7 was shot at? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: What can you tell us about that, Mr. 10 George? 11 A: There -- there was like maybe one (1) 12 or two (2) helicopters that showed up that day and they 13 would do like real low-flying manoeuvres all over the 14 base and they're like doing that all day for what reason 15 I don't know. 16 Q: What was the affect of their doing 17 manoeuvres real low? 18 A: It kind of made people on edge. 19 Q: Go ahead. What else can you tell us? 20 A: I don't -- I don't know. They were 21 there all day. They would like fly all around the 22 reserve and follow cars and stuff. And they'd go up to 23 the Base and land and then take off and fly around some 24 more. 25 Q: And during the course of these
481 helicopters flying around, did you see anybody in them? 2 A: Yeah, at given times, yeah. 3 Q: And what -- and what did you see of 4 the people in the helicopters? 5 A: I don't know. They're just like 6 sitting there flying around. 7 Q: And with respect to the shooting of 8 the helicopter, did you witness this at all? Did you 9 hear it? Did you see it? 10 A: No, I did not. I didn't -- the only 11 time that I knew that anything was happening that they 12 said a helicopter got shot. It was like near night time 13 and then all of a sudden there was a big bunch of police 14 all over the place, and then they're like somebody shot 15 at the helicopter, eh? 16 Q: All right. And what happened when 17 the police showed up? 18 A: Nothing. They were -- they were just 19 like lined up all over on the outside of the road and we 20 thought they were coming in but they didn't. They didn't 21 come in until the next day. 22 Q: Lined up on the outside of the road, 23 would that be on Highway 21? 24 A: Highway 21, yeah. They were like 25 parked in different spots.
491 Q: And you say they came in the next 2 day. Would you tell us about that, please? 3 A: By this time they moved the camp onto 4 the other side of, I don't know, Jericho Creek I guess. 5 And there was maybe about seven (7) or eight (8) trailers 6 lined up and they ordered everybody to get out of the 7 camp so they can conduct their search. 8 Q: And when -- when they conducted a 9 search, was this by way of a -- of a legal document? 10 That is to say a search warrant? Did you see a search 11 warrant? Maybe I should ask you that? 12 A: No. 13 Q: I wonder if you just might again take 14 that red pen and you had indicated that you'd moved your 15 camp near Jericho Creek. If you could show us where that 16 is when the police came to your camp? So tell us about 17 that -- that search, what did you -- what did you see? 18 A: I -- we were standing on the other 19 side of the -- the crick and -- and then they went 20 marching in and -- and just start looking around in the 21 trailers and stuff like that. I guess they were looking 22 for weapons. 23 Q: Do you know whether anything was 24 found? 25 A: I forget. They got like a slingshot
501 and, I don't know, a bunch of empty casings, but that 2 was, like, kids collecting the Army bullets, right? 3 And, I don't know. I think like -- I 4 forget. I remember it was just little things. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And was your trailer searched? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And what was the state of your 11 trailer after the search? 12 A: It was ransacked. They, like, threw 13 everything around. 14 Q: Did you lose anything from your 15 trailer? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Prior to this event, Mr. George, what 18 was the mood at -- at the Camp among those in occupation 19 of it? 20 A: Sometimes it would be all right, but 21 like, when stuff like the shooting or the helicopter and 22 the police coming in, everybody was on edge. 23 Q: Okay. And by the end of the summer 24 of 1993, there were more permanent types of buildings 25 being built, as I understand, that there were now some
511 shacks or trailers moved on there? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And, in fact, that there was a 4 building that was constructed? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Can you tell us about that, and what 7 your involvement was? 8 A: I helped built that building. Like 9 everybody who was there, they would pitch in and help to 10 build this building. And then at first they didn't know 11 what to make, they just made a building. But they -- 12 they decided to make it into a church so that if anything 13 went wrong, that they could go there because it's 14 considered as a place of refuge. 15 Q: All right. And I understand that you 16 had stayed over at the camp during that winter of '93/94? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And were you there full time, or was 19 -- or not? 20 A: It was hard in the winter. I would 21 go and stay and -- and then when it got too rough to 22 stay, I'd go back to Kettle Point and -- but I always 23 went back. 24 Q: Okay. Who do you remember that would 25 have been at the camp during that winter? Who stayed
521 over? 2 A: There was the Cloud family, the 3 Manning family, Cliff George's family. There was -- I 4 don't know. Just different families that were there. 5 Q: Dudley George, was he one of the 6 people that stayed over that winter? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And I understand that you were with 13 Kevin Simon, at least at some point, when he was involved 14 with some military personnel. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Can you tell us about that? 17 A: I was with Marlin Simon and then, I 18 don't know, it's kind of like we just ran into him when 19 it -- when it was going down. 'Cause when we went riding 20 up to up where he was staying, they were like pushing him 21 around and stuff. 22 Q: Who was pushing? 23 A: The military. 24 Q: So the military was pushing Kevin 25 Simon?
531 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right, go ahead. 3 A: And then we come riding up and Marlin 4 pushed this -- I don't know, it's like a big Jeep out of 5 the way, and then we jumped out and they, like, 6 retreated. 7 Q: And how did Marlin push the Jeep out 8 of the way? 9 A: In the truck. 10 Q: So you came up, Marlin pushes the 11 jeep out of the way and they -- the military personnel 12 retreat? 13 A: It was almost -- yeah, because we 14 jumped out of the truck and, like, you know, what's going 15 on? 16 Q: Okay. And what was going on, Mr. 17 George? 18 A: I'm not too sure. They're like, I 19 don't know, trying to kick him out or something. 20 Q: Why were they trying to kick him out? 21 And I take by him, you mean Kevin Simon? 22 A: I'm not too sure what was going on 23 because they were like loading, I don't know, they were 24 like dishwashers or something. 25 Q: From Ken Simon's residence --
541 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- or place -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- that he was living? 5 A: Yeah, yeah. 6 Q: All right. And what happens? 7 A: They're like -- there's like some 8 pushing around and stuff. But they did actually retreat 9 and got back in their vehicles and then they -- they 10 drove back to the barracks, because this -- that incident 11 happened on the rifle range. 12 Q: Okay. Did you see the military again 13 after that point -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- in respect to Kevin Simon? 16 A: Me and Kevin Simon jumped in his 17 truck and -- and we followed them back to the barracks 18 and then we were trying to ask them like, who's in 19 command here and what are you doing, right? But there 20 was nobody in command, nobody knew nothing. 21 Q: And why were you wanting to find 22 someone in command? 23 A: We wanted to know what they were 24 doing. 25 Q: Did you get any answers?
551 A: No. We just left. 2 Q: And something happened to Kevin's 3 building or the shed? 4 A: It got burned that night. 5 Q: And do you know who would have burned 6 it? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Was there any speculation as to who 9 would have burned it? 10 A: We thought it was the military that 11 did it. 12 Q: And during that summer, what happened 13 with the -- with the camp? 14 A: Pardon? 15 Q: During that summer, what happened 16 with the camp? As I understand it you moved closer to 17 the barracks? 18 A: Yes. There was different families, I 19 guess, moved closer towards the barracks and set their 20 trailers like on the first -- the first bush line that -- 21 just before to the army barracks. They were like set up 22 right along the bush. 23 Q: And could you just mark on the map 24 again in front of you, the number 4 where they would have 25 moved to please? We're told, Mr. George, that -- we
561 understand that eventually the occupation moved into the 2 barracks area? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And were you there when that 5 occurred? 6 A: No, I wasn't. 7 Q: At what point in time did you attend 8 to that scene? 9 A: It was some time in the evening when 10 -- when I got there. 11 Q: And this would have been the day of 12 people moving into the Army -- into the barracks or the 13 built-up area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: What did you see when you arrived? 16 A: I didn't see no -- no military 17 personnel at all, and there was just a bunch of empty 18 buildings. 19 Q: Okay. You have in front of you a 20 map, I wonder if you can just turn to that which purports 21 to be a diagram of the built-up area? Do you recognize 22 that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And did you stay at the built-up area 25 once you came there on the evening then, the day that
571 people moved into the -- into the barracks? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And where did you stay? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: At first I stayed in Building 49 and 8 then I moved across the road to Building 39. 9 Q: Okay. Would you just mark those on 10 there please, Mr. George? Perhaps if you could put a 1 11 at Building 49 and then a 2 at Building 39 where you 12 subsequently moved to. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: You had indicated on an earlier 17 occasion, Mr. George, that it was your belief that 18 Maynard T. George had advised the military that they 19 should leave prior to the occupation of the barracks? 20 A: To my knowledge, yes. 21 Q: Is there anything more you can tell 22 us about that? How it is you know that, for example? 23 A: I'm quite sure. I've seen pictures 24 of it. 25 Q: So you weren't -- you weren't present
581 at the time at -- when this occurred? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And in terms of the papers that were 4 served by Maynard T. George, did you see the papers at 5 all? 6 A: No. 7 Q: During the time, then, of the 8 occupation of the Army Camp, we're given to understand 9 that that occurred in July of '95? 10 A: I'm not too sure of the date. 11 Q: Okay. But there were First Nations 12 people from other communities, other than from Stony 13 Point or from Kettle Point? 14 A: Yes, there was like a few people from 15 different Reserves hanging out. 16 Q: Can you tell us who those people 17 were? Do you recall any of their names? 18 A: No. I can remember, like, a few 19 names, but I can -- I'm good with faces, not names. 20 Q: Okay, what names do you recall as 21 being present at the Army camp during that period? 22 A: Let me see. Maybe Gabe. 23 Q: That would be Gabe Doxtator? 24 A: I'm not quite sure. I don't know. 25 Q: You're not sure of his last name?
591 A: No. 2 Q: Right. Go ahead. 3 A: Let me see. I'm not sure, 'cause 4 right now I can only envision a face and I can't put no 5 name on it. 6 Q: Right. Do you know where these 7 people were from? 8 A: There were some from Oneida and 9 Muncey, Buck Town and Walpole. I mean Moraviantown. 10 Q: Is that what you referred to as 11 Muncey. 12 A: Buck Town. 13 Q: As Buck Town? And do you recall how 14 many of these people from other First Nations there might 15 have been at the Army camp during that period? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. Did you have any opinion 18 about there being there, one way or another? 19 A: My opinion was that they shouldn't 20 have been there. I didn't like the idea of them being 21 there, it was like an internal matter. 22 Q: Okay. And do you know why they were 23 there? 24 A: For sport, I guess. 25 Q: Do you know whether anybody had
601 suggested to them that perhaps they should leave? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And during this time period, Mr. 4 George, did you participate or hear any discussion about 5 moving the occupation from the Army camp to the 6 Provincial Park? 7 A: I'm not too sure. 8 Q: Okay. Did you participate in any 9 discussions about moving to the Provincial Park? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Now at some point in time, you formed 12 an opinion that the Provincial Park was of some 13 significance to your people. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what was it that led to that? 16 A: That there burial grounds located 17 inside the Park. 18 Q: Do you know who would have told you 19 this or how you would have learned about that? 20 A: I think it was Maynard that told me. 21 Q: Do you know when this might have been 22 told you? 23 A: There was some -- some time during 24 the occupation. 25 Q: Okay. When you say the occupation,
611 do you mean the occupation of the Park or -- or the Army 2 Camp? 3 A: I'm not too sure of the time frame. 4 I just remember at some given time that it was just 5 talked about. 6 Q: In terms of talking about burial 7 sites located within the Provincial Park, was there ever 8 any indication as to where those burial sites were? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And where were they? 11 A: They're -- they're in the -- where 12 the original Park was built. It's located on the other 13 side of -- I don't even know what that road's called. 14 Q: Now there's a picture or pardon me, a 15 diagram also on the table there just to your right, Mr. 16 George, which is a diagram of the Ipperwash Provincial 17 Park. 18 Does that help you out at all if you were 19 to look at that in terms of describing where it is that 20 these burial sites were identified for you? 21 A: You don't have enough map here. It's 22 not even on these maps. 23 Q: What about on the map behind you? Do 24 you recognize that at all? That diagram has been entered 25 as an exhibit in these proceedings.
621 A: Yes. 2 Q: You'll agree that that is the 3 intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the main gate to the Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park or the turnstile I should say, is 7 indicated on that map? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Does that help you out in terms of 10 identifying for us where the burial sites were located at 11 least insofar as what was told to you? 12 A: It's on this -- this side of the 13 road. The original Park is over here. So wherever the 14 main building was. 15 Q: And then for the record you're 16 pointing at the lower left hand corner? I believe that 17 diagram is Exhibit 23. Is there anything else that was 18 told to you about burial sites being located where the 19 original Park was established? 20 A: Like what? 21 Q: Is there anything -- anything further 22 that you can tell us about that, that you haven't already 23 told us? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Now as I understand, you did not and
631 were not among the main indivu -- main group of 2 individuals that entered the Park in September of '95? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you arrived there at some later 5 period? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Do you recall when it was that you 8 arrived there? 9 A: It could have been later that night. 10 Q: And what did you see when you got 11 there? 12 A: There's like people sitting around on 13 picnic tables and having a fire. 14 Q: What was the mood when you arrived 15 there in the evening of September the 4th? 16 A: To me it was like, I don't know, 17 everybody was in good spirits and laughing around and 18 stuff. 19 Q: Do you have any idea why that 20 particular date was chosen, as opposed to another, in 21 order to occupy the Park? 22 A: From what I was told, I guess, it was 23 like the end of summer, the end of the holiday season and 24 it would be probably about the best time to actually do 25 it because there'd be no one -- no one else around.
641 Q: The Park was closing for the summer? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. When you arrived there on the 4 evening of the 4th of September, did you see any police 5 presence at all? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: That night? I'm not too sure. 10 Q: All right. And I gather at some 11 point in time you did notice that there was a police 12 presence with respect to the Park? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Were they inside or outside of the 15 Park? 16 A: They were outside. They were parked 17 outside the sandy parking lot. 18 Q: Okay. And I -- I gather you can't 19 recall for us whether that was on the 4th of September or 20 a later period? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you see any interaction between 23 any of the people inside the Park and the police, that 24 you noticed? 25 A: Just same old usual swearing going
651 on. 2 Q: Okay. What kind of things were being 3 said? 4 A: Just, you know, fuck you and stuff 5 like that. 6 Q: Was this an exchange or was it -- was 7 it a one-way thing? 8 A: What I seen was just one -- one-way 9 thing. 10 Q: Okay. So the people that were in 11 occupation of the Park were yelling at the police and 12 swearing at them? 13 A: Once in a while. 14 Q: Okay. During the time that you were 15 there on that first occasion, we can -- if we could try 16 to concentrate on the 4th of September, did you see any 17 firearms at that point, or among any of the people in 18 occupation? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Was there any discussion as to 21 whether or not there would be firearms in the Park? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Was there any understanding as to 24 whether there would be firearms brought into the Park by 25 the people in occupation?
661 A: It was everybody's understanding that 2 there would be no weapons involved at all. 3 Q: And when you say "no weapons involved 4 at all", I gather you -- you're referring to firearms, as 5 I was just speaking? 6 A: Yes, firearms. 7 Q: Any why were people -- well, in 8 agreement on this? What was the concern, Mr. George? 9 A: For your basic safety. 10 Q: I understand that you returned to the 11 -- to the Army camp barracks to sleep that evening? You 12 would have returned to your own place? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do you know what time it was you 15 might have left, and I realize this is a long time ago. 16 A: What time I left that night? 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: No. 19 Q: If we can turn, then, to the 5th of 20 September, what do you recall that day? And I understand 21 you returned back to the Park. 22 Do you know when you might have returned? 23 A: It would have to be sometime in the 24 afternoon. 25 Q: Was there any change in terms of the
671 mood of the people in occupation of the Park? 2 A: People started getting uneasy. It 3 was like high tension. 4 Q: All right. And I understand that you 5 then engaged in certain activities, because of this high 6 tension, that there was a concern that the police may be 7 moving in on the people in occupation. Is that right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you engaged in some activities to 10 -- to deal with that. What did you do? 11 A: I gathered rocks and put them along 12 the fence line. 13 Q: And if you can just turn behind you, 14 there is a -- of that map there. I'm going to suggest to 15 you that on the right-hand side right above the item that 16 is marked turnstile, do you agree with me that that it 17 the fence that separates the Park from the sandy parking 18 lot? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And where was it that you would have 21 put the stones that you told us about? 22 A: Right along. 23 Q: And was anybody else involved in this 24 gathering of -- now did you say stones or rocks? And I'm 25 going to get you to describe what those are?
681 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 2 to say what he's pointing to for the record? 3 MR: DONALD WORME: Oh, thank you, sorry, 4 Mr. Commissioner. He had indicated along what I think 5 has been described as the fence line separating the Park 6 from the sandy parking lot, for the record, on Exhibit 7 23. Thank you. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Can you tell us about these -- these 11 rocks or stones that you were gathering and put along 12 that location? 13 A: They were just like, you know, rocks. 14 Q: Size wise, do you have any -- 15 A: Like, I don't know, like a baseball 16 size I guess. 17 Q: And do you recall if it was that day 18 or -- or the next day? 19 A: The -- when we were gathering rocks? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: It was the day of the shooting. 22 Q: The day of the shooting? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: So it likely occurred on -- on the 25 6th of September as opposed to the 5th?
691 A: Yes. 2 Q: On the 5th of September, did you 3 notice any police presence on that day and was there any 4 interaction between the occupiers and the police? 5 A: There was more police presence down 6 at the parking lot that day. 7 Q: And where's the parking lot? 8 A: It's right here. But they were -- 9 they were parked along up in here. 10 Q: Okay. And for the record, you're 11 pointing at Exhibit 23 and you've indicated they were 12 parked along Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: As well as in the parking lot at the 15 top right hand section of the map that is closer to the 16 water? 17 A: No. They -- they weren't in the 18 parking lot. They were all parked on -- on the road. 19 Q: On the roadway. Do you recall how 20 many police you might have observed? 21 A: I don't know. There was like three 22 (3) cars maybe six (6) or eight (8) people, I don't know. 23 Q: Was there any interaction between the 24 people in the Park and the police officers on the 5th of 25 September that you can recall for us?
701 A: There was probably the same thing. 2 You know, once in a while someone would be -- start 3 swearing around. 4 Q: Okay. Was there any rocks or 5 anything thrown that you can recall on that day? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Was there any attempt by any of the 8 police officers to your knowledge to speak to anybody in 9 the Park? 10 A: I never seen nothing. 11 Q: Did you have any conversation with 12 them? 13 A: No. 14 Q: So aside from -- from the gathering 15 of rocks and placing them along the Park fence, do you 16 know whether there were other items that were also 17 similarly gathered and piled? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Do you recall giving testimony, Mr. 20 George, at a trial of Kenneth Deane in April of 1997? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And there's a transcript and for the 23 reference of -- of counsel that numbers 1005-292 and I've 24 provided you with a copy of that document, Mr. George, 25 and at pages 109 and 110 at Tab number 9, Mr.
711 Commissioner, in -- in the binder that's been provided to 2 you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: That's a transcript, Mr. George, of 7 your testimony in the Kenneth Deane trial of April of 8 '97. You've had a chance to review that? 9 A: Yes, 10 Q: And in terms of the preparation -- 11 the steps that were taken to resist the police, I believe 12 that you had indicated then that there were bats and 13 pipes that were brought into the Park by the Occupiers? 14 Do you recall giving that testimony? 15 A: At some given time. 16 Q: Okay. And having looked at that, 17 does that help you in recalling that, in fact -- or 18 whether in fact, pipes or bats were brought in by the 19 occupiers? 20 A: It would -- I don't know, it was like 21 a spur of the moment kind of deal. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Like when it came to actually trying 24 to find a club... 25 Q: All right. I understand that on the
721 5th of September that you had returned back to the 2 barracks at that point to go and -- to go and rest? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then you returned back to the 5 Park on the day of the -- on the day of the shooting, 6 that is to say, the 6th of September, 1995? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Do you know what time you had 9 returned to the Park? 10 A: It would have been in the afternoon. 11 Q: Okay. And did you notice whether or 12 not there were -- there was a continued police presence 13 and, if so, whether it was the same as the days previous? 14 A: No, there was a lot more police 15 presence even -- even known. There was reports coming in 16 that there was a large buildup. 17 Q: A large buildup of police? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And these reports were coming in from 20 where? 21 A: Just people maybe coming back -- 22 coming and going from Kettle Point. 23 Q: Okay. Just so -- just so I don't 24 confuse you or myself, I think I might have said the 5th 25 of September. I think I was referring to the 6th of
731 September. 2 A: Yeah, it would have been the 6th. 3 Q: Okay. So, you returned to the Park 4 sometime after lunch on that day and there were these 5 various reports coming in of a large buildup of police? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: There was also reports coming in of 9 military vehicles spotted out in the countryside parked 10 here and there. 11 Q: Okay. Do you know what kind of 12 military vehicles? Was there any specifics or details on 13 that, that you can recall? 14 A: They said, like, Jeeps and stuff like 15 that. 16 Q: All right. And among the people in 17 occupation, what was -- what was going on in your minds 18 at that point? 19 A: It was getting real uneasy; kind of - 20 - kind of scared on what's actually going to happen. 21 Q: What did you think was going to 22 happen, Mr. George? 23 A: I don't know. I thought they were 24 going to come in and try to arrest us; drag us out. 25 Q: Okay. And was there any decision as
741 to what you would do if they tried to come in and arrest 2 you and drag you out? 3 A: I don't know about a decision, but it 4 was just a consensus that no one's leaving. 5 Q: Okay. And you were prepared to be 6 arrested, I gather? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I take it the other people -- 9 because you had indicated consensus -- they were of the 10 same mind, were they? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You'd indicated that on the day 13 previous, you'd noted a number of police vehicles parked 14 along East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road? 15 Were those vehicles still there? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Can you tell us anything about the 18 numbers; whether there were more? Less? 19 A: There was more. 20 Q: Did you notice how these police might 21 have been dressed? 22 A: They looked like they were dressed in 23 their regular police uniforms. 24 Q: All right. Was there any interaction 25 between the people in occupation, then, and the police
751 that were outside on East Parkway Drive and Army Camp 2 Road in regular uniforms? 3 A: Could have been. 4 Q: You didn't see any, I take it? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And were you aware of an incident 7 involving some picnic tables in the sandy parking lot and 8 a police vehicle? 9 A: No. I heard about it. 10 Q: You would have observed a vehicle 11 that was marked "OPP WHO?" 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what -- what do you recall about 14 that vehicle? What was going on there? 15 A: That day it would like, drive around, 16 but it would go down -- down to the Park and then do some 17 doughnuts and that, in front of the OPP and then take 18 off. 19 Q: Okay. Who was driving the -- the -- 20 that vehicle that was doing doughnuts? 21 A: Robert Isaac, I think. 22 Q: And do you know what that was about? 23 A: I don't know. Having some fun. I 24 don't know. 25 Q: All right. And I understand that at
761 some point in time you were -- when you came there, you 2 were asked to do certain things. Are you ... 3 A: This happened maybe before, like, an 4 hour before the actual shooting, that I went down there 5 and I ran into Worm and Robert and then they -- they 6 said, are you going -- are you going to help us out? I 7 was like, yeah. 8 So they're like, all right, you watch the 9 beach. So I was like, all right. 10 Q: Okay. When you say "Worm" you're 11 referring to Stewart George? 12 A: I think that's his name? 13 Q: All right. He's your uncle, is he? 14 A: No. I'm not related to him. 15 Q: Okay. Robert Isaac is Robert that 16 you referred to? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: So they asked you to watch the beach, 19 and what did you do in terms of agreeing to watch the 20 beach? 21 A: I just, like, watched the beach. 22 Q: And you were watching for? 23 A: The OPP. So that if we were getting 24 attacked or anything I could yell it out. 25 Q: Okay. And when you say this was
771 about an hour before the actual shooting, I take it it 2 would have been dark by then? 3 A: No, it wasn't dark then. It was just 4 getting dark. 5 Q: Were you with anybody else when you 6 were watching the beach? 7 A: At different given times I was with 8 Glen Bressette. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And were you with Mr. Bressette when 13 you came across your brother, Cecil Bernard George, on 14 the beach? 15 A: I'm quite sure he was there beside 16 me, yeah. 17 Q: All right. Tell me what happened 18 with this encounter with your brother. How did that come 19 about? 20 A: It was -- it was dark by then and I 21 was sitting there on the beach and I looked down towards 22 Kettle Point and I could see two (2) shadows moving 23 within the shadows. 24 So, I was like, oh oh, we got two (2) 25 sneaky shadows sneaking up in the shadows. So I -- I
781 took -- I took my white T-Shirt off 'cause I had a white 2 T-Shirt on and I took off my shoes and I went sneaking in 3 the shadows for a closer look and they kept coming 4 closer, so I went back into the Park. 5 And I was like, oh Glenn, get ready. Here 6 comes a -- here comes a couple of sneaky little snipers. 7 And then as they got closer and closer, it ended up to be 8 my two (2) brothers, Bernard and Jeremiah. 9 Q: Okay. What happens when -- when you 10 discover it's them? 11 A: I was scared and happy at the same 12 time because it was my brothers, right, and -- and 13 Slippery he came in and he had a -- like a couple, I 14 don't know if they're scanners or walkie talkies or 15 something like that. And then he -- I got to see him for 16 a couple of seconds and he handed them out, and I never 17 seen him after that. 18 Q: When you say Slippery, you're 19 referring to your brother, Cecil Bernard George? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And when he handed out these walkie 22 talkies or scanners, did you get one (1) of those? 23 A: No but I was near one (1). 24 Q: Did you have any discussion with 25 either of your brothers Cecil Bernard George or Jeremiah
791 George about any observations they have -- they may have 2 made en route to the location where you met them? 3 A: My -- my brother Jeremiah he come 4 down there to warn me. He said that there was a bunch of 5 police down the road and they were armed to the teeth. 6 They looked like army men and they didn't look like cops. 7 Q: They -- they didn't look like cops, 8 is that he said? 9 A: Yeah that's what he said. He said 10 they didn't look like cops, they looked like army men 11 because they had a bunch of guns. 12 Q: And when he said that there were a 13 bunch of cops down there, did he give you an estimate as 14 to how many? 15 A: He said a bunch. He said a lot. 16 Q: And when he said that they were armed 17 to the teeth, do you recall any details on that? 18 A: No. He just said that they got guns 19 down there. 20 Q: Do you know where this observation 21 that Jeremiah told you about might have taken place? Did 22 he specify for you where he seen this? 23 A: It would have been at the end of East 24 Parkway Drive, there's -- they walked up the road from 25 there along the beach.
801 Q: So when Jeremiah came to warn you 2 about this, did he -- did he tell you anything else or 3 did he make any requests of you? 4 A: He wanted me to leave to go to Kettle 5 Point with him. 6 Q: And why was that? 7 A: I don't know, I guess he was scared 8 for me. 9 Q: I take it you didn't -- you didn't 10 leave? 11 A: No, I wasn't leaving for nothing. 12 Q: And as you're down on the beach then, 13 you continued to do as you were told and that is to watch 14 the beach I gather? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you engaged in some activity down 17 on the beach? 18 A: There was a brush pile along the 19 beach there and we lit it on fire. 20 Q: What was that about? 21 A: I'm not too sure. But -- but during 22 that time when we lit the brush fire, we could hear 23 police talking about the fire on the scanners. 24 Q: What did you hear them saying? 25 A: I don't know. They were explaining
811 which direction the fire was coming from and what corner 2 and it was getting bigger and bigger. And the only thing 3 that we figured that this was coming from was from a boat 4 that was in the water, because it was sitting out there 5 for a couple days. 6 Q: And so from -- from the conversation 7 you overheard on the police scanner, you formed the 8 opinion that the boat that was sitting outside -- outside 9 of the Park on the water were OPP personnel? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: So what happens after you turned down 12 Jeremiah's request to go back to Kettle Point with him? 13 A: He left. 14 Q: Do you know which way he left? 15 A: He left exactly the same way that he 16 came back. 17 Q: And you had indicated earlier that 18 your brother Cecil Bernard George, you didn't see him 19 after he handed out the radios? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And you don't know if he returned to 22 Kettle Point or went into the Park? 23 A: Oh, I know he went into the Park. 24 Q: Okay. 25
821 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm just wondering, 4 Commissioner, if this might be a -- a good place to break 5 for lunch? I realize it's about ten (10) minutes to 1:00 6 or so. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 If it's a good time to adjourn for you? 9 MR. DONALD WORME: It would be. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. We'll 11 adjourn now for lunch. An hour and fifteen (15) minutes? 12 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we'll 14 reconvene back about 2:05. 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Order, all rise please. 17 This Inquiry stands adjourned until 2:05 p.m. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 12:52 a.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 2:10 p.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed, please be seated. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME:
831 Q: So, Mr. George, just before we broke 2 for lunch, you were telling us that on the evening of 3 September the 6th after you had left the company of your 4 brother Jeremiah, you proceeded back down along the beach 5 back towards Kettle Point; yes? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And your brother Cecil Bernard George 8 went into the Park. I think you told us that that's what 9 you knew for sure. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And as I understand you 12 were then listening to the scanners that were brought in 13 by your brother Bernard -- Cecil Bernard, and tell us 14 what happens from there. 15 A: After we lit the fire I lost sight of 16 my brother and I don't know how long it really was until 17 the police come marching down the road. But there was 18 another incident that we heard over the scanner and it 19 said the badgers are in the Park. And then that's almost 20 right when they came down. After that they come marching 21 down the road. 22 Q: And when you say they come marching 23 down the road, I wonder if you would take a moment and 24 describe that for us, please? 25 A: It was the OPP. In front was a
841 tactical unit with shields and batons and there was a 2 couple of cruisers, maybe a paddy wagon and a whole lot 3 of police. 4 Q: Okay. And do you have any estimate 5 as to how many -- first of all, when you say the tactical 6 unit with helmets and shields and batons? 7 A: Maybe fifteen (15) twenty (20) with 8 shields and batons. 9 Q: All right. Go ahead. 10 A: And -- and the rest of the uniformed 11 officers -- too many to count. 12 Q: All right. Now if you just refer to 13 the map behind you, when you say that -- that they're 14 marching down the road, where are you talking about? 15 A: They come walking down East Parkway 16 Drive to here -- to the sandy parking lot. 17 Q: Right. And where were you when you 18 made this observation? 19 A: I was at the very end. 20 Q: And you're -- 21 A: I was at like at the beach line. 22 Q: And you're indicating the very top 23 part, the right-hand top corner of the map? 24 A: Yeah. I was the last person and 25 everybody else was in front of me. Or to the side of me.
851 Q: All right. I wonder if you might 2 just first of all, put a mark there with the red pen that 3 you have on that map behind you in terms of where you 4 indicated that you were standing? Perhaps you could 5 start with a number 1. 6 A: The fire we lit was right -- right 7 around there. 8 Q: And do you recall who you would have 9 been standing with and how many people you would have 10 been standing with inside the Park? 11 A: Altogether? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: I don't know, maybe thirty (30) -- 14 forty (40) people. 15 Q: You're estimating that there were 16 thirty (30) or forty (40) people inside the Park? 17 A: That's just a guess. 18 Q: Okay, and how many of those would 19 have been men? How many would have been women? How many 20 would have been children if, in fact, there were any 21 children there? 22 A: There were -- at the fence line it 23 was mostly men. and the women and the children, they were 24 still back in the Park more, where the campgrounds and 25 that are.
861 Q: Okay. 2 A: But there were still, like, you know, 3 young kids running around. 4 Q: And after you hear the comment, there 5 are badgers in the Park, how much later did the police 6 then march down towards you as you've described? 7 A: It was, like, a couple of minutes. 8 Q: Okay. Can you tell us what you heard 9 and what you saw then? 10 A: The -- the police came down the road 11 and the ones in the front was a tactical unit with their 12 shields and they marched to the -- to the sandy parking 13 lot. And then when they first got there, everybody was 14 just standing there for, like, a few minutes in silence 15 and then there was yelling that was going on. 16 Q: And what was being yelled, and who 17 was doing the yelling? 18 A: The yelling was coming from both 19 sides. 20 Q: Do you recall what was being said, 21 Mr. George? 22 A: I could here stuff like, You -- you 23 fucking lazy bums and you fucking lazy Indians, get a 24 fucking job and get the fuck out of our Park, stuff like 25 that.
871 Q: Okay, and where was this coming from? 2 A: It seemed like the front lines 3 because it was closer voices. 4 Q: Okay, was anything being said back to 5 them? 6 A: Same thing, like -- like, I don't 7 know, it was like, Fuck you, this is our land and we're 8 not moving anywhere. And during all of this, I -- over 9 everybody, I could hear my brother yelling because he was 10 -- he could yell pretty loud, just like me and I -- I 11 could distinguish his voice over everybody's and you 12 could hear him saying, like, This is a peaceful 13 occupation. There are women and children here. 14 Q: All right. You've estimated that 15 there were thirty (30) or forty (40) of you inside the 16 Park with mostly men up at the front line. Did you -- do 17 you have an estimate as to how many police officers in 18 total you would have seen marching towards you? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. Could you tell if there were 21 more police officers than there were of the people that 22 you've described in the Park? 23 A: A lot more. 24 Q: And when they first walked up to the 25 sandy parking lot, I think you'd indicated everything was
881 silent, initially? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And then yelling took place back and 4 forth? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Where were they standing when they 7 were doing the yelling and being yelled at? If you 8 could, again, just refer to the map behind you? 9 A: Maybe it was around here. It was 10 almost in front of this gate, but they weren't too close 11 to the fence line yet, they were, like, in the middle. 12 Q: And when they were in the middle in - 13 - in -- of the sandy parking lot, were they in any 14 particular formation? Did it appear to you that they 15 were organized in any fashion? 16 A: No, not at that time. 17 Q: Okay. What happens from there? 18 A: This -- this guy start yelling out 19 commands to them and they form two (2) lines. 20 Q: And where would those two (2) lines 21 have been formed? Again, in relation to that map, 22 perhaps you could use the black marker there and if you 23 could indicate where the two (2) lines formed. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
891 Q: I -- you made a number of "X's" in 2 two (2) lines in the middle of the sandy parking lot. 3 That is your estimate of the police officers, is it? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And the number of X's, is that 6 supposed to indicate the number of actual officers that 7 you recall or is it simply to indicate the lines? 8 A: I don't know. Maybe there was like 9 six (6) or more on one (1) -- one (1) lineup. 10 Q: And I take it that they were standing 11 shoulder to shoulder? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Right. And these are officers, as 14 you've described them, as the tactical unit, that is the 15 ones that had these -- the shields and the -- and the -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- the batons? 18 A: They had shield and steel tip batons. 19 Q: All right. Can you tell us how else 20 they were dressed besides having these shields and steel 21 tipped batons? 22 A: They had helmets on and boots and 23 must have been bullet-proof vests, boots and -- I don't 24 know. They looked pretty protected. 25 Q: All right. And again with respect to
901 where you were lined up, you've indicated with a -- with 2 a mark on that map, where was everybody else that you 3 were with inside the Park? Where were they? 4 A: They were all lined up along the 5 fence. 6 Q: Okay. And we've heard some evidence 7 from other witnesses that would suggest there were maybe 8 up to twenty (20) on the inside of the fence. Does that 9 accord with what you can recall today? 10 A: It -- it could be. I'm not sure of 11 the exact number of people that were there. 12 Q: And in order to make these 13 observations, I take it that there was some light coming 14 from somewhere? There was some illumination, it was 15 night after all. 16 A: Yeah, it was night but you could 17 still see. 18 Q: Okay. Can you tell us where the 19 light was coming from and how it was that you were able 20 to see? 21 A: I'm not too sure because at one (1) 22 given time there was a street light that was lit up right 23 in the parking lot. 24 Q: Okay. And can you recall today 25 whether or not that was lighting the area up?
911 A: It was shut off. There was maybe 2 light coming from the Park store. 3 Q: What about spotlights or anything 4 like that? Do you remember anything like that, Mr. 5 George? 6 A: Well at one (1) given time I ran up 7 to Dave George's truck and jumped in the back because he 8 had a spotlight. And he was spotlighting around and we 9 were trying to -- we were trying to count how many there 10 were but there's like way too many to even count. 11 Q: So you were using the spotlight, Dave 12 George's spotlight? 13 A: I wasn't. I was just in the truck. 14 Q: Okay. You were with him to try to 15 count how many officers there were? 16 A: That -- at one given time, yeah. I 17 jumped in his truck for like a couple of seconds. 18 Q: So you've described this yelling that 19 was going on back and forth and you were able to discern 20 out of that your brother's voice. It was 21 distinguishable? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Distinguishable because of what he 24 was saying or the manner that he was saying it? 25 A: When you grow up with somebody their
921 whole life, you can automatically recognize their voice. 2 Q: Okay. And how long did -- did this 3 yelling go on back and forth, if you can recall today? 4 A: I don't know. A few seconds. 5 Q: All right. At that point, you hear 6 orders being -- being given. These two (2) lines are 7 then formed. And what happens at that point, Mr. George? 8 A: He gave another command to charge. 9 And they started beating their batons against their 10 shields and they marched towards the fence. 11 Q: Go ahead, what happens? 12 A: They got to the fence line and people 13 were like throwing rocks and clubbing and stuff. 14 Q: Go ahead. 15 A: That didn't last too long. It maybe 16 like, I don't know, a few seconds and then there was like 17 another command to retreat. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: And so they retreated and then they 20 retreated like, I don't know, five (5) feet or something 21 like that. And then another command was given to charge. 22 Then they charged the fence again, same thing. 23 Q: And what happens when they charged 24 the fence the second time? 25 A: Same thing.
931 Q: Okay. And there was clubbing going 2 on, I think you had indicated? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And was that going both ways? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what about rock throwing? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And on the second occasion as well? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: What were you involved in doing? 11 A: Throwing rocks. 12 Q: So what happens from there, Mr. 13 George? 14 A: It was right around this time that I 15 went running back down the beach to see if we were going 16 to get attacked from a different angle. 17 And then I came running back up and by 18 this time they were doing a third charge and when I came 19 back up the hill, there was people crossed over the fence 20 and it looked like a battle royal going on. 21 Q: Okay. When you say a battle royal, 22 there was hand to hand combat taking place? 23 A: Well kind of like clubbing. 24 Q: And who was doing the clubbing? 25 A: Both.
941 Q: Mr. -- Mr. George, you gave a 2 statement to the SIU in October of 1995, on October 14th 3 of 1995? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And for the benefit of Counsel that 6 bears Inquiry Document Number 100-45-17? You've had a 7 chance to review that document, Mr. George? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it's at Tab 6, Mr. Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: And in that statement you had 14 described two (2) OPP, you called them spotters in your 15 statement? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that they were shining lights on 18 people in the Park and one (1) of them was near the 19 cottage on the corner, I think is what you had indicated? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now do you recall anything about that 22 today in terms of the statement that you had provided to 23 the SIU back in October of '95? 24 A: Right to this very day I have no 25 recollection of even saying that.
951 Q: And having read the statement I take 2 it that didn't assist you in refreshing your memory? You 3 have no independent recall? 4 A: I can't remember that. 5 Q: If I can just take you back to the -- 6 the comment you'd made earlier. You'd indicated your 7 position to us earlier on the map behind you, being at 8 the top right hand corner of -- of the map, closer to the 9 beach, correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you might -- I don't know if you 12 told us who you were standing beside, but do you remember 13 who you were -- who you might have been next to? 14 A: Glenn Bressette was one (1) of them 15 and Wes George was there too and I don't who else was 16 right beside me at the time. I remember those two (2). 17 Q: You then indicated that you ran down 18 to the beach area to see if there were perhaps other 19 police officers coming from another angle? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And on your way back you see the 22 people have crossed over the fence from inside of the 23 Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Did you, at that point,
961 have any idea why they were doing that? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Go ahead, Mr. George, what did you 4 see at that point? 5 A: To the right of me, everybody was on 6 this side of me and I could see almost near where the 7 front gate was because that -- that's where they crossed 8 the line and that's where -- that's where they were -- 9 the main concentration of the fighting was going on. 10 And this only lasted for seconds, but out 11 of those seconds I seen somebody get dragged through the 12 front line and they were in between both lines and this 13 man was getting beat up. 14 Q: And describe that. What do you mean 15 by, "this man getting beat up?" 16 A: He got dragged through and then -- 17 and then he fell to the ground, so I don't know, he -- 18 they knocked him down or hit him to the ground, but he 19 was -- he was laying on the ground and -- and there was a 20 -- a circle of police officers kicking and clubbing him. 21 Q: And just so I understand, you say the 22 guy got dragged through and fell to the ground. You've 23 indicated on that map, two (2) lines of police officers? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And is that the line that -- that he
971 was dragged through? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And when you seen the circle 4 of officers kicking and clubbing him, I wonder if you 5 could just refer to the map behind you and tell us where 6 you observed that going on? Okay, you've made a red "X" 7 on the -- on the document. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Go ahead, what happens after that? 10 A: They -- they retreated. And -- 11 Q: And what happened with the person 12 that was on the ground when there was a circle of 13 officers kicking and clubbing that person? 14 A: As they were -- there was a -- a 15 police officer that grabbed him by the hair and dragged 16 him down the road by his hair and they still kicked and 17 clubbed him while he was getting dragged down the road by 18 his hair. 19 Q: And dragged down the road, do you 20 mean down East Parkway Drive? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay, and I gather you didn't know 23 who that individual was at that point? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. Where were you when you
981 ran back up from the beach to make this observation? 2 A: Almost in the same spot. 3 Q: Okay, and did you have anything in 4 your hands, Mr. George, at that point? 5 A: It could have been a baseball bat. 6 Q: Do you know where you obtained the 7 baseball bat? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you use it to -- to strike any of 10 the officers that you were fighting with? 11 A: I'm not too sure, I just remember 12 throwing rocks. 13 Q: You gave another statement to the SIU 14 on September the 11th of 1997, Mr. George, do you recall 15 that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And for the benefit of Counsel, that 18 bears document number 1004572. It's at Tab 13 in the 19 document in front of -- document binder in front of you, 20 Mr. Commissioner. You'll recall that you had an 21 opportunity to review that statement? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You indicated in that statement that 24 you were ten (10) or fifteen (15) yards away from where 25 this beating was taking place and that there was some
991 light coming from some cottages? 2 A: I don't recall that. 3 Q: Okay. And you indicated that the 4 street light on the corner was broken, but there were 5 spotlights from inside the Park, illuminating the Park? 6 A: Yes, at different times. 7 Q: And you indicated at Page 14 to 16 of 8 that same statement that you could see the faces of the 9 officers who did the beating. 10 A: Maybe then, but not now. I don't -- 11 I can't recall nothing. 12 Q: Okay. You indicated then that there 13 were between six (6) and ten (10) officers that were 14 kicking at this person that was on the ground? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And does that help you today in terms 17 of providing us an estimate as to how many people you 18 seen engaged in this? 19 A: No. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And you also indicated, Mr. George, 24 at Page 17 and 18 of that statement that the officer that 25 you've told us about now that was dragging this
1001 individual by the hair was involved in the initial 2 assault. Does that assist you at all in terms of 3 recalling that event? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Is it your position that you would be 6 able to recognize any of those officers today or not be 7 able to recognize them? 8 A: No. I wouldn't be able to. 9 Q: All right. On the 25th of March, 10 1998, you gave another statement to the Special 11 Investigations Unit. Do you recall that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that bears Document Number 14 1005701 and that's at Tab 15, Mr. Commissioner. At the - 15 - you've had a chance to review that statement? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you had told SIU at that point 18 that there were at least three (3) types of police at the 19 confrontation? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you remember there being three 22 (3) types of police officers, if I can put it that way? 23 A: Right now at this given time, I can 24 remember two (2). 25 Q: And what two (2) are those? That's
1011 the two (2) you've described as being the riot squad 2 and -- 3 A: The riot squad and the regular 4 police. I really can't recall the two (2) toned blue. 5 Q: All right. And as you know, in that 6 statement to the SIU you'd indicated that you would 7 perhaps be able to identify some of the officers that 8 were involved? 9 A: Maybe I could have at one (1) given 10 time, but not now. 11 Q: You'd indicated even back in March of 12 1998, Mr. George, that you were sick of all of this stuff 13 and you didn't really want to deal with it, even then? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Have you had a chance to think about 16 it, or talk to anybody about this since that event? 17 A: No. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: As you see this person, then, being 22 dragged by the hair and their continuing to -- to -- I 23 think you said club him, what's the next thing that 24 happens, Mr. George? 25 A: They went so far down the road when a
1021 bus came through the gate. 2 Q: What was the bus doing coming through 3 the gate and what did it do? 4 A: I'm quite sure there was a dumpster 5 in the way and it had to get pushed out of the way and 6 then it drove through and it went driving down the road. 7 Q: Were you still in the same position 8 as you'd indicated earlier when you made this 9 observation? 10 A: I think, yes. 11 Q: And when you said that the police 12 went so far down the road, I take it you mean they went 13 down East Parkway Drive? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And can you tell us, or estimate for 16 us how far it was that they were down the road when you 17 seen the bus exit the Park? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I'm not too sure about that. I know 22 where they were when the bus actually stopped. 23 Q: Okay. Can you show us again on the 24 diagram, perhaps you could use the black marker, where 25 the bus was when it actually stopped according to your
1031 recollection? 2 You've indicated a position that is, 3 perhaps, adjacent to or just a little to the east of what 4 I think is the second intersection? The second driveway, 5 pardon me? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: West, pardon me. All right. And did 8 you -- were you able to -- to estimate how fast the bus 9 was travelling? 10 A: It's a hard question. I'm not -- I'm 11 not too sure. 12 Q: Okay. When -- when you testified at 13 the trial of Kenneth Deane in April of 1997, again you 14 had a chance to look at that transcript? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And at Pages 114 to 117, which is at 17 Tab 9, Mr. Commissioner, you indicated that you were 18 running at roughly the same speed as the bus and the car, 19 although you also indicated that the car had passed you. 20 Do you recall testifying to that effect? 21 A: I didn't go to the front of the gate 22 until the bus was actually stopped and then the car 23 followed and I followed the car. 24 Q: All right. And your testimony was 25 that the car passed you at the Deane trial.
1041 Do you remember that? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. You don't recall testifying to 4 that effect? Is that what you're saying? 5 A: I can't remember saying that. 6 Q: All right, but your recollection 7 today is that you followed the car that had exited the -- 8 the Park as well? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether the car 11 came immediately after the bus or did it follow at some 12 later time? Are you able to tell us? 13 A: It was like -- I don't know, five (5) 14 -- ten (10) seconds later. 15 Q: Okay. Now, you've indicated where 16 you had seen the bus travel to when it came to a stop. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I think you had indicated in your 19 statement to the SIU on October the 14th of '95 -- again, 20 that document number is 1004517 at Page 24, that the bus 21 had travelled about twenty (20) feet onto the paved 22 portion of East Parkway Drive. 23 Is that consistent with what you've shown 24 us there? 25 A: Yes, but when it comes to distances,
1051 I don't know. 2 Q: When the car came out, where did it 3 go up to, Mr. George? 4 A: It stopped on the left-hand side of 5 the bus. 6 Q: And would you maybe just take that 7 black marker and indicate on that map where you recall 8 the car stopping? And, for the record, you've drawn a 9 smaller box just to the -- I guess it would be on the 10 passenger side of the -- of the school bus? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now, do you recall where you were 13 when the bus -- pardon me, when the car came to rest in 14 that -- in that location? 15 A: I was almost standing right behind 16 it. 17 Q: Okay. Did you see whether the car 18 had struck anybody? 19 A: No. 20 Q: You didn't see or it didn't strike 21 anybody? 22 A: I didn't see it actually hit anybody. 23 Q: Okay. And when the -- when the bus 24 drove out, what happened with the police officers that 25 were moving in that -- down that road?
1061 A: When it came to a stop? 2 Q: At -- at one point, you might have 3 seen what had happened, that's all I'm getting at. 4 A: When I came to a stop, it looks like 5 they scattered, but there was, like, one (1) line of 6 police that just, kind of like, formed a line right in 7 front of the bus. 8 Q: And what happens from there? 9 A: The bus started backing up. 10 Q: Was the fighting that you had 11 described earlier still going on? 12 A: No. 13 Q: So the bus start -- 14 A: Because the police were retreating 15 down the road. 16 Q: And the bus starts backing up and 17 what happens? 18 A: Shots rang out. 19 Q: Did you see any police with their 20 weapons drawn? 21 A: I can't remember. 22 Q: Okay. And were you in the same 23 position, that is right behind the car or almost behind 24 the car I think was your evidence when the shots rang 25 out?
1071 A: It's hard to say. I was right in 2 that general area when the shooting started. 3 Q: Can you describe that for us? What 4 exactly happened? 5 A: There were several slow distinguished 6 shots that rang out. Like maybe six (6) slow shots and 7 then after that there was a whole bunch. 8 Q: Did you see where the shots were 9 coming from? 10 A: No. 11 Q: What did you do when you heard the 12 six (6) slow shots and then a whole bunch? 13 A: I turned around to the Park and 14 started running back. 15 Q: What's happening as you're running 16 back to the Park? 17 A: I could -- I could hear bullets going 18 by and I can hear ahead of me steel metal being hit and 19 big loud thuds. 20 Q: What were the other people that you 21 were with doing? 22 A: They were running back too. But you 23 know, at first I thought they were just trying to scare 24 us, like, shoot up in the air, you know, use rubber 25 bullets or something. Didn't think they were actually
1081 going to -- 2 Q: Did it scare you? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Where was the bus and the -- and the 5 car at that time then, was it still behind you as you 6 were running then towards the Park? 7 A: I think it -- I think they both 8 passed me. 9 Q: They passed you heading back into the 10 Park? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you know why the bus and the car 13 came out of the Park at all? 14 A: To me I thought it was a rescue 15 mission, to help the man that was getting beat up. 16 Q: And just before I leave the -- the 17 gun fire that you've described as a whole bunch, are you 18 familiar with automatic weapon fire? 19 A: I heard it. 20 Q: Where -- where would you have heard 21 that? 22 A: The military. They go to the rifle 23 range every other day or something like that and shoot 24 around. 25 Q: Right.
1091 A: They're loud and distinguished. 2 Q: And this gun fire that followed the 3 early slow shots that you heard, did you -- did you 4 determine whether or not that was automatic gun fire or 5 not? 6 A: It had to be -- it was too slow for a 7 semi-automatic. I mean it was too fast. 8 Q: All right. And I take it you 9 couldn't tell, even at that point, where the gunfire was 10 coming from? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Can you tell us how long this gunfire 13 went on? 14 A: It didn't last that long, but it 15 seemed long. 16 Q: Tell us what happens from there, Mr. 17 George. 18 A: As I was running I went running by 19 this person and -- and I stopped and looked down and it 20 was Dudley laying there. I said, Dudley, what's the 21 matter? And -- and he said, they got me. And Dave was 22 standing near me and I said, Dave, they shot Dudley. And 23 Dave yelled it out, they shot Dudley. 24 And I froze. I was like staring at him. 25 And I stepped back, kept backing up maybe five (5) or six
1101 (6) or seven (7) steps. And I sat in the sand and I 2 prayed for him. 3 Q: And in reference to the map behind 4 you, Mr. George, where was -- where was he when you had 5 this exchange with him? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Okay, somewhere in that location? 10 A: He didn't exactly make it into the 11 fence line of the Park. He was still in the parking lot. 12 Q: Okay. And what did you observe 13 about -- 14 A: The last thing when I looked up and I 15 seen a group of people pick him up and carry him to a 16 car. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: In an SIU statement that I had 21 referred you to earlier, Mr. George, the one of October 22 the 14th of '95, you'd indicated in that statement that 23 upon seeing Dudley being shot, you ran back to the 24 asphalt to yell something at the OPP officers. 25 A: Yes.
1111 Q: Do you recall that today? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what was it that you did? 4 A: I was yelling and screaming that they 5 shot an unarmed man. 6 Q: Okay. And where were the police at 7 this point? 8 A: They were still advancing down East 9 Parkway Drive. 10 Q: When you say "advancing" -- 11 A: I mean -- 12 Q: -- I take it they were -- 13 A: -- retreating. 14 Q: -- coming towards you? 15 A: No, they were retreating. 16 Q: Okay. You could still see them? 17 A: They were way down the road by then. 18 Q: All right. What happens from there? 19 A: I went back into the Park and then I 20 -- I asked who was that who got beat up and they said 21 that was your brother. So, I got pissed off and grabbed 22 a baseball bat, beat up a gate and went yelling and 23 screaming back down the road. 24 Q: And how far down the road did you get 25 to?
1121 A: About same area as where the bus 2 stop. 3 Q: You're indicating down East Parkway 4 Drive? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Go ahead, what happens? 7 A: One of my friends came and got me and 8 told me to go back in the Park because they might shoot 9 me too. 10 Q: And this would be Kevin Simon? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. Continue. 13 A: So I went back into the Park and I 14 forgot about my other brother being there right? And I 15 was like, where's Jeremiah now, right? And so I flipped 16 out again because I thought the police had him and I went 17 yelling and screaming back down the road again. 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: And again, Kevin Simon had to come 20 and get me. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. When you went out on this 22 second occasion, could you see any police at this point? 23 A: I don't think so. 24 25 Q: So what happens after Kevin convinces
1131 you to come back into the Park on the second occasion? 2 A: I went back into the Park and had to 3 calm myself down. And then I went running back down the 4 beach to get my shirt and my shoes and then that's when 5 whoever burnt up the store. 6 Q: Did you have anything to do with 7 that? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And before the store was burned, did 10 you learn anything of the -- of the fate of Dudley 11 George? 12 A: We learned that he died some -- there 13 was some time -- I don't know when but we found out. 14 Q: Can you tell us whether that -- that 15 you had found out before the store was set afire? 16 A: I'm quite sure it was before because 17 -- let me see, the store was lit and then everybody left. 18 Q: Where did you go? 19 A: Everybody left. Everybody got in the 20 cars and then the bus and they drove back up to the front 21 barracks. 22 Q: And that's where you went? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what did you do at the front 25 barracks?
1141 A: I went crawling up the water tower to 2 watch the fire. 3 Q: And from the water tower were you 4 able to make any other observations? 5 A: No. I could see the -- the store 6 burning and that was that. 7 Q: Could you see whether there was 8 anybody coming or going from the barracks? 9 A: There was people leaving. 10 Q: Do you know who those people were? 11 A: No. But at one point in time when I 12 crawled back down, there was still women and children 13 that -- that I know and they were scared. They left too. 14 Q: Can you tell us what the mood of the 15 people were that were left in -- in the barracks? What 16 was going on there? 17 A: I don't know how you would describe 18 it. It was very emotional. 19 Q: Did you sleep that night, Mr. George? 20 A: No. 21 Q: On the 7th of September there were a 22 number of people that arrived at the army barracks. Were 23 you there when they arrived? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Can you tell us what was going on at
1151 that point? 2 A: I was -- I was at the front gate when 3 they come walking down the road from Kettle Point and I 4 was, like, screaming and yelling around like usual. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And there was, like, media and all 7 that there and they, like, took my pictures and stuff and 8 I didn't even know. 9 Q: Okay. And did you accompany these 10 people or some of those people who had came from Kettle 11 Point when they went back up to the Park or down East 12 Parkway Drive? 13 A: I followed them there because at one 14 (1) point we went down and back up the water tower with - 15 - with flags and then we came back down and went to the 16 Park. 17 Q: Who did you go the Park with and how 18 did you get there? 19 A: Let me see, there was me and my 20 brother and, let me see, Virgil was there, I think; 21 either Lance or Greg or someone and then we went running 22 to the front and then this guy just told us to jump in 23 his truck and we got a ride down there. 24 Q: When you say, Running to the front, 25 you mean at the barracks, is it?
1161 A: Yeah. We went, like, running back up 2 to the front gate because we were like -- everybody's 3 leaving. 4 Q: Okay, when you say you and your 5 brother, which brother is that? 6 A: Jeremiah. I ran into him at the 7 front gate. 8 Q: Okay. So, everybody eventually 9 arrives or a number of people eventually arrive at the 10 Park? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now, this is the morning of September 13 the 7th, is it? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Do you have any estimate as to what 16 time, approximately, it might have been? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Do you know how many people you might 19 have been with in total? 20 A: There was a large number of people. 21 Q: Okay, and they were comprised of 22 what? Men? Women? 23 A: There were men, women, children. 24 Q: Okay, and what happened? 25 A: They were, like, just standing around
1171 in the Park and people were trying to tell the story of 2 what happened and then you could see OPP personnel down 3 the road looking at us with binoculars and stuff. 4 Q: Down which road? 5 A: Down East Parkway Drive. 6 Q: Okay, and where was this group of 7 people that you were -- that you're talking about that 8 were trying to tell the story? 9 A: We were in the -- in the sandy 10 parking lot. 11 Q: Okay. What happens from there, Mr. 12 George? 13 A: Everybody just started walking down - 14 - down East Parkway Drive towards the police. 15 Q: We're told that there might have been 16 members of the media there. Does that -- is that 17 something that you recall? 18 A: Yeah, they were -- they were there, 19 but I wasn't paying no attention to no media. 20 Q: All right. In terms of media might 21 there have been -- what, cameras? People with cameras? 22 A: Yeah, there were, like, camera crews 23 there and reporters writing everything down. 24 Q: All right. What happens as you're 25 marching, then, toward the police?
1181 A: They went walking down the road and 2 then as soon as they got in front of the -- the parking 3 lot, the -- everybody was just standing there for, like, 4 you know, a few seconds and there was nothing being said 5 and, you know, they were just standing there staring and, 6 you know, they were looking at these cops and they were 7 pointing their guns at us and stuff like that, right? 8 So, it's just spur of the moment thing. I 9 was at the back of the line and I pushed my way right 10 through the front and I start yelling around. 11 Q: Do you recall what you were saying? 12 A: I was swearing and saying stuff like, 13 You shot an unarmed man, you know, You fucking murderers 14 and where the fuck's my brother? Who the fuck beat up my 15 brother? Right? 16 Q: Okay. And as you're -- as you're 17 yelling these things, what are the police doing? 18 A: We just kept walking at them and 19 yelling and there was at some given time this dude start 20 yelling, Retreat, or whatever, right? And so the police 21 were like starting to jump in their cars and -- and 22 leave. 23 Q: Okay. And when you say the police, 24 could you tell us how they were dressed? 25 A: In the same way as the night before.
1191 Q: That is regular police uniform? 2 A: Regular police and -- and two (2) 3 tone -- I remember that one, now. There was like two (2) 4 different colours of police there. And then maybe a dark 5 grey. 6 Q: All right. You've mentioned that 7 they were pointing their guns at you. What kind of guns 8 are you talking about? 9 A: I don't know. They -- it looked like 10 they had two (2) different kind of guns. There was like 11 -- some had big long ones, and some had little weeny 12 ones. 13 Q: Okay. You say little -- little wee 14 guns. Do you mean like a handgun? 15 A: They were bigger than handguns. 16 Q: So it was a rifle, but it wasn't as - 17 - it wasn't a long rifle. 18 A: Some of them, like, look like -- like 19 machine gun and then there was other ones that looked 20 like little sub-machine guns or something. 21 Q: Okay. So you heard an officer then 22 began to yell something to the effect of retreat? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: What happens? 25 A: They start getting in their cars and
1201 driving away. 2 Q: You made an observation about a 3 female police officer. You recall that today? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: What happened there? 6 A: As we were yelling and screaming, we 7 were like walking through the -- through the police and 8 there was this -- this lady. She was running around her 9 -- her police car like a chicken with her head cut off 10 and she had like this big gun and she was pointing it all 11 over the place, right? 12 And, you know, there was like -- Tina 13 George was standing there with her kids and they were 14 crying and screaming, right? And -- and this chick, she 15 was running back and forth, back and forth, pointing this 16 gun all over the place, right? 17 And so she finally clicks in, because 18 everybody's jumping in their cars and then the head dude, 19 he's like swearing at her, Get the fuck in your car, 20 right? 21 And so she finally clicks in and looks at 22 him and then she jumps in the car and I was, like, Yeah, 23 fuck you. Get the fuck out of here and that's when I 24 start kicking that cop car. 25 Q: Okay. And so all the police left?
1211 A: Yes. 2 Q: What did you do? 3 A: We left, too. 4 Q: And you went back to the Army camp? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did you return to the Park later that 7 evening, Mr. George? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And who did you return to the Park 10 later that evening with? 11 A: I was -- I was with my friends, but I 12 just got dropped off. 13 Q: All right. And as I understand it, 14 there were a number -- a number of people there, men, 15 that you didn't know. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: What happens with these -- with these 18 people? First of all, how many of them were there? 19 A: Maybe eight (8) to ten (10). I 20 didn't -- I didn't recognize one (1) face that I seen, 21 because they were like -- they started walking down the 22 road and I was, like, Whoa, where are you guys going, 23 right? 24 And I was, like, looking at all of their 25 faces and I was, like, Holy, who are you guys, right?
1221 And where you going? And they were like, Oh we're going 2 to go down here and check it out. 3 So they went marching down East Parkway 4 Drive to where the OPP left the vehicles. 5 Q: Okay. And we're told that that's the 6 Ministry of Natural Resources Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And just before you go on, where are 9 these eight (8) to ten (10) men that you didn't see 10 before when you first seen them? 11 A: They were like right in front of the 12 -- the gate where the bus came through. 13 Q: And so did you get to the MNR parking 14 lot? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: What happened once you get there? 17 A: These dudes like jimmied it open. 18 Because the first thing we went to was, now let me see, I 19 think it was a paddy wagon first because these guys like 20 stole it. And they came back and then they stole an 21 ambulance. Well, they stole everything really, there was 22 an ambulance, a paddy wagon and four-wheelers. 23 Q: Did you have a chance to see any of 24 those items or get inside of any of those vehicles? 25 A: I looked inside the St. John's
1231 ambulance. 2 Q: Is there anything that you can tell 3 us about that that sticks out in your mind? 4 A: It was probably the weirdest 5 ambulance I ever seen in my life. 6 Q: And why is that? 7 A: There was all kinds of stuff in this 8 ambulance that had nothing to do with saving somebody's 9 life. 10 Q: What kind of things? 11 A: I don't know. I can't really 12 remember. It's like lights and stuff. There was like 13 just a bunch of weird things and you know, you were 14 thinking why are these weird things in this ambulance. 15 Q: Is there anything else that you were 16 doing with these people besides looking -- besides 17 looking in the ambulance? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Observing them steal those items? 20 A: Alls -- alls I was was an observer. 21 I didn't steal nothing. 22 Q: And I understand that you were 23 subsequently charged -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- as a result of the items that were
1241 stolen? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what were you charged with? 4 A: One (1) count over five thousand 5 (5000) for an ambulance, one (1) count over five thousand 6 (5000) for a paddy wagon and two counts over five grand 7 (5000) for two (2) four-wheelers and mischief for kicking 8 a cop car. 9 Q: And I understand you were 10 subsequently acquitted of all of those charges or they 11 were dropped as against you. You were not convicted of 12 them? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You do have a criminal record though, 15 Mr. George? That in September of '96 you had been 16 convicted of two (2) counts of mischief? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that was as an result of an 19 incident that would have occurred at some point during 20 the occupation of the Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: What was it that you were convicted 23 of? 24 A: I chopped down a Ipperwash Provincial 25 Park sign along Highway 21.
1251 Q: And aside from those convictions, you 2 don't have any convictions and you certainly didn't have 3 any prior to September -- September the 6th of 1995, is 4 that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you recall searching for bullets 7 or -- or spent casings at any time on the 7th of 8 September 1995? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And were you able to locate any or 11 did you see anybody locate any of these casings or bullet 12 -- or bullet fragments? 13 A: I found a few. 14 Q: And what did you do with the -- first 15 of all, what was it that you found? 16 A: They were like little small shell 17 casings. 18 Q: And where were those located? 19 A: On the road. 20 Q: Can you perhaps just indicate again 21 on the map what -- if -- if -- if that area is within 22 that diagram? 23 A: I'm not really too sure so I'm just 24 going to say it was around here. 25 Q: You're indicating an area just on the
1261 driver's side of the bus? 2 A: Well, I don't know because they were, 3 like, here and here and here. Like, people were finding 4 them all over the road. 5 Q: I see. 6 A: So, that's why I'm just saying that's 7 the general area. 8 Q: All right. Thank you for that. In 9 your earlier statement to the SIU of October the 14th of 10 '95 and I've referred that to you earlier, you'd 11 indicated that most of the bullets were found on the 12 right-hand side of the road closest to the beach. 13 Do you remember giving that statement? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. And does that assist you, 16 today, in terms of refreshing your memory as to where 17 bullets might have been found? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. After you noticed that 20 Mr. Dudley George was shot you indicated that you took 21 several steps back and simply sat down in the sand? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And can you tell us how 24 you were feeling at that point? 25 A: Sad and shock.
1271 Q: All right. And on the -- on the 7th, 2 or the days following that, did that feeling change at 3 all? That is, sadness and feeling in shock? 4 A: No, not for a lot of days. 5 Q: And I understand some days later you 6 found an injury on your right leg and you did report this 7 to -- to the SIU? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And, as I understand, and I'm 10 referring to your statement of October the 14th, that 11 Kennedy of the SIU, postulated that the injury to the 12 outside of your right leg was a bullet graze? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Did you have that treated? 15 A: The -- the only people that treated 16 it were traditional healers. 17 Q: Okay. I just want to take a moment 18 to mark the exhibits that you've put the numbers on. 19 First of all, the military reserve document, if we could, 20 perhaps, have that marked? 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-84. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT P-84: Document 1002409, Page 13, Map Of 24 Ipperwash Reserve Marked by Witness 25 Stacey Vaughn George, Nov 22/04
1281 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 3 Q: And just before we leave that, you 4 made a number of markings, and I'm going to see if we can 5 -- oh, we do have it on the screen -- I wonder if you 6 could just take that laser pointer and just indicate so 7 that Counsel can see and the Commissioner can see where 8 you made the various marks on that. 9 Okay, could you just take that laser 10 pointer and I think, perhaps, start at number 1 and if 11 you'd describe what that -- Number 1, I think, was the 12 location of your grandparents' farm at Stoney Point. 13 A: Right there. 14 Q: All right. You're indicating the 15 area that is marked off right adjacent to the rifle 16 range? 17 A: Yes, it's right on the rifle range. 18 Q: And it's -- you marked number 2 on 19 there being the location of your tent in May of '93? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Where was that? 22 A: Right there. 23 Q: Okay. You're indicating an area just 24 below what is marked on the map as Sten range. 25 A: Yes.
1291 Q: You marked a number 3 at the location 2 of your tent at the time of the helicopter shooting. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Alleged -- Alleged 4 helicopter shooting. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: Alleged. 8 A: Alleged. Right there. 9 Q: Thank you. And the grenade range is 10 marked on there. Mr. George, you testified that there 11 were military personnel throwing grenades, exploding 12 grenades. 13 Is that the area that's marked as grenade 14 range? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: It's in the bush right in here. 18 Q: Thank you. And the location of the 19 building that you had described as a church, and we've 20 been told subsequently became Argument Hall, where would 21 that be located? 22 A: Right around here somewhere. 23 Q: Okay, and you're indicating a 24 location south of the area that's marked thirty (30) -- 25 thirty (30) yard range adjacent to Highway 21?
1301 A: Yeah, it's like right beside it 2 almost. 3 Q: You've described an altercation that 4 Kevin Simon had with the military. Where did that take 5 place, Mr. George? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: That was on -- he had a like a little 10 shed right on the edge of the bush, by the rifle range. 11 Q: You put a Number 4 at a location 12 where people had moved when they moved closer to the 13 barracks. And where is that, Mr. George? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: There's the bush line. It'd be right 18 along here. 19 Q: Okay, thank you. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: That map up on the screen now, Mr. 24 George, is a map of the built up area, the barracks area. 25 You've indicated that you had moved in. When you moved
1311 in there in July of '95, you went firstly to Building 49? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And where is that? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: All right. And then subsequent to 8 that, you moved to Building 39. 9 A: It was on the end, right there. 10 Q: Okay. And you've made a notation on 11 that map, I think, in front of you? Did you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Perhaps we can have that 14 marked as Exhibit -- 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-85, Your Honour, P-85. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 17 P? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-85. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-85: Schematic Diagram Of Military 21 Barracks, Camp Ipperwash, 13 22 Feb/96, Doc 2002436, Page 35, 23 Marked by witness Stacey 24 Vaughn George, Nov 22/04 25
1321 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: Is there anything else, Mr. George, 3 that you can tell us about this event that stands out in 4 your mind today, that we haven't already covered with 5 you? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: What is that? 8 A: The dude who was yelling the 9 commands, I seen him behind the bus for like a second, 10 maybe two (2). 11 Q: Anything further, Mr. George? 12 A: No. 13 Q: I think those are all my questions, 14 Mr. Commissioner. And perhaps just before I sit down, I 15 would ask that that board be marked as the next exhibit. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-86. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-86: "Stan" Thompson Drawing, 19 Sept 20/95, Marked by Witness 20 Stacey Vaughn George, Nov 21 22/04 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's it? 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Those are all my 25 questions, Mr. Commissioner.
1331 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This would 2 be a good place to take an afternoon break. Before we 3 do, let's get an indication of what the lay of the land 4 is, regarding cross-examination. 5 Anybody who wishes to cross-examine would 6 you please indicate by standing up so I can see what to 7 expect. Okay, Mr. Orkin...? 8 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: One (1) or two (2) 9 minutes, Mr. Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Perhaps five (5) 12 minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 14 minutes, all right. Are you making a note, Mr. Millar? 15 Mr. Ross...? 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Perhaps fifteen (15) 17 minutes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 19 MacAleer...? 20 MS. JENNIFER MACALEER: Approximately 21 fifteen (15) minutes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 23 minutes. 24 MR. LESLIE KAUFMAN: Approximately 25 fifteen (15) minutes.
1341 MR. IAN McGILP: I hate to break with 2 tradition, sir, but I expect forty-five (45) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. We might finish this afternoon. If not, 5 we'll continue tomorrow. We'll take a break now for 6 fifteen (15) minutes. Thank you very much. 7 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 8 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 3:24 p.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 3:42 a.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 14 Inquiry is now resumed. Please be seated. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 16 Orkin...? 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 19 Q: Good afternoon. My name's Andrew 20 Orkin. I'm co-Counsel to the Dudley George Estate and 21 the Sam George family group. 22 Mr. Commissioner, on reflection, I'd asked 23 for -- for a few minutes, I think I'm only going to need 24 one (1). I have just one (1) question and on the basis 25 of the clarity of the witness' testimony for which we're
1351 grateful. 2 Mr. George, you indicated that some time 3 before the occupation you had been charged for cutting 4 down a sign on Highway 21? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that sign was an Ipperwash Park 7 sign? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Could you perhaps tell us in your own 10 words, why it was that you did that? 11 A: Because that Park is part of Stoney 12 Point and it was going to be -- become part of Stoney 13 Point. 14 Q: And the status of Stoney Point? 15 A: Pardon? 16 Q: Can you tell us -- you -- you say the 17 Park was part of Stony Point. 18 A: Yeah, it is. 19 Q: And what does Stoney Point mean to 20 you, if the Park was part of Stoney Point? 21 A: It means all our land. There's a lot 22 of land in question. 23 Q: So you cut down the sign because the 24 Park is part of all of your land? 25 A: Yes.
1361 Q: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. 2 Commissioner. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You got 7 enough room there? Are you okay? 8 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Yeah, I'm okay, 9 thank you. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 12 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. My name 13 is Jackie Esmonde. I'm a lawyer representing the 14 Aazhoodena and George family group, which includes some 15 of the descendants of Dan and Melva George. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: I just wanted to get a few more 18 details from you in a few areas. You were asked about 19 the walk to Ottawa? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you go all the way to Ottawa 22 with that march? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Do you remember now how many people 25 were part of that march?
1371 A: There was quite a few. I can't 2 really give you a number. Maybe fifty (50), sixty (60). 3 Q: So what happened when you arrived in 4 Ottawa? 5 A: There were some drummers already 6 there and there was like a stadium, a podium set up 7 already so that if people wanted to talk they could go up 8 there and say their piece, which I did. 9 Q: Okay. Did anyone from your group 10 speak with any government representative? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Do you know if attempts were made to 13 speak with a government representative? 14 A: Yeah. To my recollection, it was Kim 15 Campbell who was charge -- in charge at the time. 16 Q: So attempts were made to speak with 17 her or somebody in government and those were -- attempts 18 were not successful? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Because there wasn't no government 22 officials there to say anything when we got there. 23 Q: Okay. And the government officials 24 knew you were coming? 25 A: I'm quite sure they did because, you
1381 know, it was being publicized -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: -- on TV and in the newspapers and 4 there was no way that they did not know we were coming. 5 Q: Okay. Now, you also spoke about the 6 Peace Tree ceremony, which I understand was -- a hatchet 7 was actually buried beneath a tree? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: On the Stoney Point land? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I understand that you can't 12 remember now everyone who was present at that ceremony, 13 but do you recall whether Dudley George was there? 14 A: Yes, he was there. 15 Q: And I just had a few questions about 16 Kevin Simon's building and what -- what occurred after 17 the altercation with the -- the Military Police and I 18 believe that was in 1993 that that happened? 19 A: I'm not sure of the date. 20 Q: Okay. Are you -- was it in 1993 or 21 it could have been another year? 22 A: I don't even know what year it was. 23 Q: Now, we've heard evidence that there 24 was subsequently a demonstration that took place on the 25 parade grounds in the built-up area. Do you have any
1391 knowledge of that? 2 A: I didn't take part in it. 3 Q: Okay. And you've told us that people 4 were becoming increasingly uneasy as the days went on 5 during the occupation of the Park area? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Can you tell us why you, in 8 particular, were becoming more uneasy? 9 A: It was -- there was a lot going on at 10 the time with land claims and stuff like that and Oka was 11 going on at the same time and they were getting shot at 12 there, right? 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: So, you know, with more presence of 15 OPP and even with the threat of the Military on standby, 16 who ain't going to be uneasy? 17 Q: And you've described what you saw to 18 be a buildup of police as the days went on? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I'm just trying to understand 21 what you mean by that. Did -- were there more 22 checkpoints as the days went on? Or there were more 23 officers at these checkpoints? 24 A: There were more officers and more 25 cars present.
1401 Q: And turning to the events of 2 September 6th, that night of the shooting, and you've 3 told us that you heard an officer shouting orders to the 4 other officers. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you could hear that pretty 7 clearly? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And his directions were all made to 10 the other OPP officers? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You didn't hear him shout anything to 13 you on the other side of the fence? 14 A: No, because it was strict orders for 15 them, as soon as he'd yell a order, they would do a 16 formation. 17 Q: Did any other officer give orders to 18 the Stoney Pointers or those on the other side of the 19 fence? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And you described approximately -- I 22 -- I believe you described three (3) different skirmishes 23 at the fence line -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- that you observed?
1411 A: Yes. 2 Q: And, from what you observed, police 3 were hitting police on the other side of the fence? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: With their batons? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Were you, yourself, hit? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And you were asked about statements 10 you made to the SIU to the effect that you -- you could 11 identify some of the officers involved in beating your 12 brother? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I believe in those statements you 15 also speak of having actually recognized two (2) of the 16 officers in court? Do you remember that today? 17 A: No. 18 Q: You don't remember that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: But you did tell the SIU that you 21 believed that you could identify some of the officers? 22 A: I remember reading it and if I think 23 about it even right now, I got nothing but a blur. 24 Q: Okay. Do you remember ever being 25 shown photographs of police officers to try to identify
1421 who it was? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Now, when you saw Dudley George on 4 the ground, did you observe anything in his hands? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Was there anything on the ground 7 around him? 8 A: Maybe some rocks. 9 Q: And you, yourself, were injured? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I believe we were told you were 12 wounded on the right leg? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Can you describe for me what -- how 15 you were wounded? What the injury was? 16 A: It was gouged. It looked like it was 17 in the shape of an ice cream cone, it was round at one 18 end and opposite end it shaped into like the end of an 19 ice cream cone. 20 Q: Okay. And you believe that was a 21 bullet graze wound? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Do you remember -- sorry. 24 A: Because that night there was nothing 25 the matter with me and when I first noticed it it was
1431 when I was crawling up the water tower, because I had a 2 real hard time. But I didn't really see it until like, 3 it was like two (2) days later when I actually changed my 4 clothes. 5 Q: That was what I was going to ask you. 6 So you first noticed that you had been hurt when you were 7 climbing up the water after you went back to the built-up 8 area? 9 A: Yes. Yes. Because the next day I 10 swear I was in shock. At one point in time I looked into 11 the mirror at the main gate and I was shaking like a leaf 12 and my face was pure white. 13 Q: Did you have any other injuries? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And you were asking questions about 16 finding bullet casings on the ground? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Do you remember how many you 19 personally found? 20 A: It wasn't that many. 21 Q: And when were you searching for these 22 bullet casings? 23 A: It probably would have been the next 24 day. 25 Q: Was it light out?
1441 A: Yes. 2 Q: Thank you very much, those are all my 3 questions. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much. I'm not sure who's next. Mr. Ross, is this 6 your client? 7 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No it is not. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So you're 9 not next then are you? 10 MR ANTHONY ROSS: I am not next, no. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You -- 12 don't you want to go at the end? 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I -- I could right 14 here. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, whose 16 client is this? Nobodys? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't think he's 18 represented. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, that's 20 fine. All right then. If you want to go ahead now then 21 that's fine. Go ahead, Mr. Ross. 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I will -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 24 thought this was -- I thought this was your client, Mr. 25 Ross. If it's not then you can go now. No, Mr. Ross, I
1451 think it's more appropriate for you to go now. 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Okay. Sure. You see, 3 Mr. Commissioner, where I come from it's always the 4 ladies first, so -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 8 Q: Mr. George, my name is Anthony Ross 9 and I represent the occupiers of Aazhoodena. 10 A: Hello, Mr. Ross. 11 Q: There are one (1) or two (2) 12 questions that I'd just like to clear up with you. As 13 far as the occupation is concerned, you were part of the 14 group which occupied the range back in 1993, am I correct 15 with that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the purpose for occupying the 18 range I take it, was to establish a right and entitlement 19 to the lands which are now Aazhoodena. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yeah. And as far as these lands are 22 concerned, my understanding that they're bounded on one 23 side by Highway 21, is this your understanding also? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And on the west side by the Army Camp
1461 Road which goes right down to Lake Huron? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And on the eastern side by Outer 4 Drive which goes right down to Lake Huron? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yes. And these lands would include 7 what was the range, later what were the barracks, and 8 also what was referred to as the Ipperwash Provincial 9 Park? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now when you were part of that 12 occupation, were you doing it for yourself personally or 13 was it a part of a group effort? 14 A: Both. 15 Q: And were you expecting these lands to 16 be turned over to you in your personal capacity or your 17 group, Stoney Point? 18 A: Stoney Point. 19 Q: Thank you. Now as far as the march 20 to Ottawa is concerned, just for the record, I would like 21 to confirm with you that was around September, the middle 22 of September 1993, is that your recollection also? 23 A: I don't remember the date. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I remember walking.
1471 Q: You remember the long walk to Ottawa? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you remember getting there? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the type of reception that you 6 have described to Ms. Esmonde? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yeah. Now you speculated that there 9 might have been -- that the military might have burned 10 Kevin Simons' camp. Was there any friction between the - 11 - the occupiers of the range and the military? 12 A: I don't know. It always seemed like 13 there was some kind of friction there, you know. It was 14 like we don't want them there, and they don't want us 15 there. 16 Q: So it was competition over the lands? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Thank you. Now you also referred to 19 hearing over the communications system that was provided 20 by Cecil Bernard George that the badgers were in the 21 Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yeah. What did you understand that 24 to mean? 25 A: I haven't the slightest idea.
1481 Q: I see. Okay. Now, on the night of 2 September 6th, 1995, that was the night of the serious 3 problems -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- occurring, yeah. Now, from your 6 evidence, it appeared that up to a point somebody 7 appeared to be in control of the group and was -- was 8 shouting orders. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And the group was responding to those 11 orders? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Was there any time that this apparent 14 control seemed to break down and it turned to a free-for- 15 all? 16 A: No. 17 Q: So throughout the entire experience, 18 it seemed to be a controlled exercise with somebody in 19 charge and somebody in command? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, you had been with your brother 22 earlier that evening, am I correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And after he had presented the 25 communication system, the -- what were they? Walkie-
1491 talkies and a scanner? 2 A: It could have been, I'm not too -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- sure what they were. 5 Q: Yeah, but that was the same night, 6 the 6th of -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- of -- of September? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now around the time that you saw him 11 with the communication equipment, did he look fine to 12 you? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: No bruises? 15 A: No bruises. 16 Q: No cuts? 17 A: No cuts. 18 Q: No scars? 19 A: Nothing. 20 Q: And he was in good shape? 21 A: Oh yes, he was walking and talking 22 and... 23 Q: So when was the first time you saw 24 him after that? 25 A: It was, like, maybe a month later.
1501 Q: I see. And when you saw him, what 2 was his condition? 3 A: He was still hurting real bad. He 4 almost died three (3) times on the way to the hospital. 5 Q: And you actually saw people holding 6 this man by his hair, dragging him and kicking him? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And perhaps you can tell me, I'm just 9 curious now, this incident occurred on -- on -- on 10 Wednesday, which was the 6th of September. How is it 11 that you didn't see your brother like within -- within a 12 week or two (2)? Is there a reason for that? Did you go 13 away? 14 A: I was up north. We went on vacation 15 for like a week and when we came back they had tooken 16 over the Army base when I got back. 17 Q: Oh no, no. We're missing something 18 because my understanding is that the Army -- the first 19 occupation was on the range, in 1993, correct? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: When we first moved on the land. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then the built-up area was taken
1511 over in July of 1995, and the incident with Dudley and 2 your brother happened in September, 1995? September the 3 6th of 1995. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Yeah. And it was -- I'm just trying 6 to figure the time between when that happened and when 7 you first saw your brother and to find out had you gone 8 away during that time? 9 A: So you want to know the very first 10 time I seen him and the last time? 11 Q: No. The -- the first time you seen 12 him after the -- after the beating. 13 A: It was like a month later. 14 Q: I see. Now as far as this beating is 15 concerned, I understand that -- that nobody seems to be 16 able to account for his injuries. None of the police 17 officers able -- able to account for his injuries. 18 But you saw him in the hands of the 19 police, am I correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yeah. Mr. George, thank you very 22 much. Those are my questions after the answers you've 23 given the other lawyers. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 25 Mr. Ross.
1521 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Counsel on 3 behalf of the OPP? Good afternoon. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. LESLIE KAUFMAN: 6 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. 7 Mr. George, my name's Leslie Kaufman and I'm one of the 8 lawyers representing the OPP here. I have -- I've just 9 four (4) areas that I want to go through and I won't be 10 very long, okay? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. With regard to the first move 13 onto the rifle range at the Army Camp that occurred on 14 May 6th of 1993, you gave evidence here that you heard 15 about this and you went to the Camp that day. 16 Is that right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And then you stayed on at the 19 Camp on and off. Is that right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay, and when you weren't staying 22 there, you were visiting people as well? 23 A: If I wasn't there, I'd go to Kettle 24 Point. 25 Q: All right. And I understand that
1531 that move occurred because the First Nations people 2 believed that they had a right to the land. Is that 3 right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: That's why the move occurred then? 6 And you supported that belief? Is that right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And, in fact, you told us here today 9 that when you heard about the court injunction being 10 sought to move you off the land, your personal response 11 was, Why, because you had already said you were going 12 back to move onto the land. Right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And when the occupiers moved 15 from the rifle range into the barracks that were -- or 16 the built-up area on July 29th, 1995, I understand from 17 your evidence that you -- you weren't present, but you 18 attended the barracks later on that day. Is that right? 19 A: It was in the evening when I got 20 there. 21 Q: Okay. And then you then moved into 22 the barracks? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And lived there -- 25 A: Yes.
1541 Q: -- full-time, right? Okay. And again, 2 that move occurred because the First Nations peoples 3 believed that -- that they had a right to occupy the land 4 and you did as well. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Is that right? Okay. And, I'm going 7 to suggest that during this time that you overheard 8 people discussing the idea of occupying the Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park, is that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And then on September -- on 12 September 4th in 1995, you knew there was -- there was 13 going to be a push into the -- into the Park -- into the 14 Ipperwash Provincial Park, correct? 15 A: I didn't know nothing about it. I 16 had -- Q: You had heard people discussing it? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay, and -- and again, that occurred 19 because the First Nations people believed that you had -- 20 and you believed that you had a right to the land? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And then there was a push into 23 the parking lot -- the sandy parking lot, correct? 24 A: Push? What does a push mean? 25 Q: The individuals started moving into
1551 the sandy parking lot. 2 A: Okay, yes. 3 Q: Yes? And that was on the other side 4 of the fence. Is that right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And once again there was a 7 belief that the First Nations people had a right to that 8 land as -- and -- and that you believed that as well. Is 9 that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay, that you had a right to this 12 whole plot of land? 13 A: There was a lot more land in question 14 than you actually think. 15 Q: So, I'm -- I'm speaking about the 16 Park and then the sandy parking lot and -- and you're 17 indicating even more than that. Is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And the -- the picnic tables 20 that were being set up, do you know -- they -- they were 21 being set up to assert your right to the land or -- or 22 what -- what -- 23 A: It could have been but, there -- the 24 parking lot incident and that, I had -- I wasn't there. 25 Q: All right. So -- so then you weren't
1561 there when the picnic tables were being moved? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay, but you heard about that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay, and the -- and you've heard 6 that they were set up in some sort of circle, is that 7 right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And so are you -- so you'd 10 gone back to the -- the barracks to sleep for the night 11 when that occurred? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And are you aware of a -- a 14 fire that was started in the middle of the picnic tables 15 or around the picnic tables? 16 A: I heard there was a fire. 17 Q: Okay. And do you know who set it? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. And you're familiar with 20 some of the land that the cottages are on to the east of 21 the Park in Port Franks? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And you're also aware of land 24 to the west of the Park over to Raven's Road? 25 A: Yes.
1571 Q: Okay. And we've already heard from 2 other individuals here and I'm going to suggest to you as 3 well that it was the belief of the First Nations people 4 that that was their land as well? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Am I right? Okay. And we've also 7 already heard from another witness that there were 8 discussions about some time in the future moving into 9 that land and occupying it as well? Would you agree with 10 that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And then, by the end -- just 13 going back to 1993, by the end of the summer of 1993 14 there were six (6) or seven (7) trailers, am I right, 15 that had moved into the Army camp? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: There was trailers, okay. And there 18 was a meeting place that was built there as well -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- you spoke about? Okay. And I 21 believe you've already indicated that you -- you stayed 22 at the camp over the winter of 1993/1994, right -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- when you said you were going back 25 and forth?
1581 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And we've already heard from 3 another witness, David George, that at no time did the 4 OPP ever attempt to remove any of the occupiers from that 5 land from May 1`993 to July 1995 and I trust you'd agree 6 with that -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- statement? Okay. And I further 9 suggest then, that in the built-up area, that I was 10 speaking of before, from July to September 4th of 1995, 11 again there was -- so July 1995 to September 4th of 1995, 12 again there was no attempt by the OPP to remove occupiers 13 from the land? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: I trust you'd agree with that? And 16 you may have already returned to the barracks by this 17 point, but I -- I trust that you were aware that Vince 18 George and the MNR Superintendent and other OPP officers 19 came to Ipperwash Park on the early morning hours of 20 September 5th and tried to serve some trespass papers. 21 Is that right? 22 A: I heard about it. 23 Q: Okay. And you weren't there? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. Apart from that time, I'd
1591 suggest that at no time did you personally see any OPP 2 officer on the Park property, between September 4th and 3 September 6th. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. Now on September 6th, you've 6 spoken about the confrontation between the occupiers and 7 the police at the fence, right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And I suggest that the police 10 never, ever went on to the Park side of the fence and 11 that what they were doing was moving up to the fence and 12 then retreating. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Correct? Okay. And in fact it was 15 the -- the occupiers who in fact jumped the fence and 16 went on to the other side at which time you indicated 17 there was -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- the battle royal -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Royal, right? Okay. And -- and you 22 were one (1) of those people that jumped the fence? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. And at that time you were -- 25 when you jumped the fence you were carrying -- what
1601 exactly? A club or a -- 2 A: I think it was a baseball bat. 3 Q: Okay. As was basically everybody 4 that jumped the fence, correct? 5 A: It could have been. 6 Q: Okay. But you saw -- 7 A: It could have been -- 8 Q: -- other people around -- 9 A: -- a stick or something whatever. 10 Q: Sorry to interrupt. You said, Or a 11 stick"? 12 A: Yeah, whatever. 13 Q: You saw people all around you 14 carrying things when they jumped the fence? 15 A: Some. 16 Q: And you were throwing rocks as well? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Right? And other people were 19 throwing rocks as well? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Just going back for a moment 22 to the -- when the picnic tables were set up and I 23 understand that you weren't there but you heard that 24 there was a fire in the -- 25 A: Yes.
1611 Q: -- middle of the picnic tables. Did 2 you hear anything about a tent that was also put in -- in 3 the circle? 4 A: No. I don't remember nothing about 5 that. 6 Q: You didn't see a tent? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. And when the police came and 9 there was the confrontation at the fence, then more 10 police cruisers began to arrive, right? When the 11 confrontation started? 12 A: There was a few police cars and a 13 paddy wagon that was with the main group of police -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- on the road. 16 Q: When the police cruisers arrived, you 17 then retreated back into the Park, correct? When you saw 18 more. 19 A: Say again. 20 Q: When you saw more police cruisers 21 arriving, you then retreated back into the Park. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Perhaps I should be more clear. I --
1621 I'm not talking about at the very end, I'm talking 2 earlier on when there was some confrontation at the 3 fence. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And the police would come and then go 6 back and come again. I'm suggesting that when more 7 police cruisers arrived, you as well would go up to the 8 fence and retreat back when more police cruisers came and 9 then it was later that you then jumped over the fence, is 10 that right? 11 A: Oh, yes. 12 Q: Okay. I'm sorry that I was unclear 13 with that. But at -- what I'm suggesting is that at 14 first you -- you were -- and the group of you were 15 responding to the -- the police coming towards the fence 16 by moving back. 17 A: The main group stayed right at the 18 fence line. 19 Q: Okay. So -- 20 A: No one crossed over until the -- 21 those like the rush. 22 Q: The main group. Were there a number 23 of other people though that retreated back when more 24 police cruisers arrived? Or you don't recall? 25 A: The Park occupiers?
1631 Q: Yes. 2 A: We weren't doing no retreating. It 3 was just the police that were moving back and forth. 4 Q: But I'm going to suggest that you'd 5 be -- the occupiers would be at the fence and then when 6 they would see more police arriving, they would retreat a 7 little further back and then go back to the fence again 8 in response to seeing more and more police arriving. 9 Am I right or am I wrong? 10 A: Everybody who was at the fence line 11 stayed at the fence line. The police all came in one (1) 12 big huge sum until they got to the Park. And they stayed 13 that way. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: It was all one (1) big group. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: They retreated all in one (1) big 18 group. 19 Q: All right. And when the occupiers 20 were in the sandy parking lot, and the tables began to be 21 removed, you were -- you weren't there at that time 22 you've indicated, right? 23 A: No. 24 Q: But you heard people speak of it, is 25 that right?
1641 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you hear that people said 3 that when the police started removing the -- the tables 4 that the people retreated back into the Park in response? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And you -- you've indicated 7 that on September 6th there began to be more and more 8 concern among the occupiers as to the police response -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- what was coming? And that it was 11 Cecil Bernard George that came in and brought -- into the 12 Park and brought the two way radios and scanners, right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And -- and am I right that it was 15 then that you began to -- you yourself could hear on the 16 scanners what the police were saying, you personally? 17 A: Yes. Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And in fact you -- you've told 19 us about that incident where you yourself lit a fire, 20 right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that you could hear the police 23 reacting to the fire getting bigger and bigger, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Because it must have been something
1651 to see. You -- you could see yourself the fire becoming 2 bigger and bigger? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Was it becoming bigger than 5 you had anticipated that it would when you initially set 6 it? 7 A: It was just a pile of sticks and logs 8 and -- it was just a brush pile. 9 Q: But it was getting -- 10 A: Oh. It got -- it got into a nice big 11 little fire. 12 Q: And -- and you suspected that the 13 police were in a boat in the water and that they could 14 see -- they could see what's happening? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you -- I think you've indicated 17 that you could hear the police commenting on how big the 18 fire was getting and this just what, minutes before 19 things really started to escalate, is that right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Would you say that this was 22 the first big fire that -- I guess you didn't see the 23 other fire the night before? 24 A: That -- the other fire at the picnic 25 table, that was like a little camp fire. That's what
1661 that fire was. But this fire was just, you know, just a 2 bush fire, just... 3 Q: Which had the potential to -- to get 4 out of control I take it? 5 A: Well I don't know it's on sand. It 6 was just a bunch of sticks and stuff. I don't know how 7 sand's going to catch on fire. 8 Q: There were no other fires that were 9 that big up to that point, am I right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And Cecil Bernard George, aside from 12 bringing the -- the two-way scanners, was also going 13 around to different people in the Park and telling them 14 that the OPP were massing and -- and there was concern -- 15 great concern building amongst the occupiers? 16 A: Everybody probably knew then that 17 there was a large number of police just down the road. 18 Q: Okay. And it was then that more and 19 more of the Occupiers began to pick up bats and things 20 like that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And that this was something -- 23 while -- while people had held onto bats or sticks 24 earlier on, the fact that almost everybody was carrying 25 bats and sticks at this point was something that was new.
1671 Am I right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. As in, on the 6th as opposed 4 to the 5th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: People were -- people had more things 7 in their hands? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. So, if someone had observed 10 four (4) or five (5) First Nations people carrying sticks 11 or bats in that area of the sandy parking lot they would 12 -- that would accord with your recollection as to what 13 was happening? 14 A: That night? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And were you present for the 18 incident involving a confrontation between Stewart George 19 and Gerald George? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you know about that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And -- and you know what that 24 was about in terms of the newspaper article? 25 A: Not really.
1681 Q: And did you become aware, on the 2 evening of September 6th, that women and children were 3 begun -- were being driven out of the barracks area? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Sorry, driven back to the barracks 6 area from where they were? 7 A: Yes, right after the shooting. 8 Q: Okay. I -- I mean before the 9 shooting? 10 A: Before the shooting? 11 Q: In -- in the hours before the 12 shooting, that women and children were being taken back 13 to the barracks? Or is that something that you're just 14 not aware of? 15 A: I'm not aware of that because there 16 was still women and children down there when the shooting 17 happened. 18 Q: All right, but I'm suggesting that 19 even though there -- there were still women and children 20 there, that other women and children had been taken back 21 to the barracks in the hours preceding the shooting. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay, and that's something you're 24 agreeing with? 25 A: Yes.
1691 Q: Okay. Being -- being brought there 2 by Occupiers? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Thank you, sir, those are all 5 my questions. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 7 Ms. Kaufman, thank you. OPP -- OPPA. Good day, sir. 8 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 10 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George, my name 11 is Ian McGilp and I represent the OPP Association. 12 A: Good afternoon. 13 Q: Sir, you told Mr. Worme that you now 14 live in Calgary, Alberta, is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that you're working on 17 construction there? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: When did you leave the Stoney Point? 20 When did you cease to reside there? I guess I should be 21 precise. 22 A: After the shooting. 23 Q: After the shooting? How long after 24 the shooting? Do you recall? 25 A: A few months.
1701 Q: A few months? And was there a 2 particular reason that you left? 3 A: Got sick of it. 4 Q: You got sick of what? 5 A: Everything. 6 Q: Of the occupation? 7 A: Of the occupation, the way that 8 people were acting around there. It was weird. I just 9 left. 10 Q: And when you say, "The way people 11 were acting around there," do you mean the Police or the 12 Occupiers? 13 A: No, it was the Occupiers themselves. 14 Q: It was the Occupiers themselves. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And can you tell the Commission what 17 about the behaviour of the Occupiers upset you? 18 A: They got -- some of them got, like, I 19 don't know, rowdy. 20 Q: Rowdy? 21 A: There -- there was certain 22 individuals that didn't want certain individuals there at 23 all, so -- 24 Q: There was a kind of competition among 25 different individuals as to who should be there and who
1711 shouldn't be? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I see. You mentioned that prior to 4 1993 you and your friends and some of your friends and 5 family members would hunt deer and ducks, I think, on -- 6 on the Army Camp lands and that you would gather -- were 7 they called morales? I'm not sure, mushrooms, anyway. 8 A: Yes, morales. 9 Q: And -- and then you said that during 10 the occupation you also hunted there and that you used 11 borrowed guns, I believe you said it was a .22 or a 12 shotgun. Is that correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you said that those guns were 15 always stored either at your mother's or your brother's 16 in Kettle Point? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And who did you borrow the guns from, 19 sir? 20 A: They were my dad's guns. 21 Q: They were your dad's guns? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And so that when you took them back 24 to your mother's house, it was really like returning the 25 guns, I guess, to the person that you borrowed them from?
1721 Is that right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And those guns were available to you 4 whenever you wanted to use them? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. Now you mentioned the -- 7 this morning, I believe, you told Mr. Worme that Mr. 8 Maynard George had told you about burial sites in -- in 9 lands that we would describe as on the west side of Army 10 Camp Road and south of East Parkway Drive? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: If those were the burial sites, could 13 I ask you to explain to the Commissioner why you occupied 14 the Park to protect those burial sites, because 15 obviously, the Park as it was in 1995, those burial sites 16 were not part of the Park, were they? 17 A: No. But the whole point is, is that 18 we're getting our land back one (1) way or the other. 19 Q: And what do you mean "one (1) way or 20 the other"? 21 A: Occupation. 22 Q: By occupation. But you didn't occupy 23 the land where the grave -- where the burial sites were. 24 You occupied land where the -- were there burial sites in 25 the Park as it was in 1995?
1731 A: There could be. 2 Q: But you -- did you know of any? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Were people thinking, as you were -- 5 as best as you can recall, were people discussing or 6 talking about occupying the lands on the west side of 7 Army Camp Road where the burial sites were? 8 A: No. 9 Q: You heard no discussion of that? 10 A: No. Primary Provincial Park. 11 Q: Primary Provincial Park and are there 12 burial sites there, to the best of your belief? 13 A: Where, in the primary? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: I heard there was. 16 Q: You heard there was. And you heard 17 people discussing the possibility of taking over that 18 Park as well? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Now I believe you said in response to 21 Mr. Ross a few minutes ago, that the Stoney Point lands 22 go from Outer Drive on the east over to Army Camp Road on 23 the west and are bounded by Highway 21 on the south. Is 24 that right? 25 A: Yes.
1741 Q: But then I think you told Ms. Kaufman 2 that the Stoney Point lands go all the way to Ravenswood. 3 Is that right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Could you describe for the 6 Commissioner in your view, just what are the boundaries 7 or parameters of the Stony Point lands? All of the -- 8 all of the lands that the Stony Point people, in your 9 view, are entitled to. 10 A: From Ravenswood right straight up to 11 Gotteridge. 12 Q: Up to Gotteridge? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And how far south would that extend? 15 A: Pardon? 16 Q: Well, like, in the south? Would it 17 go past Highway 21, south of Highway 21? 18 A: It'd go to a certain degree that runs 19 into Kettle Point land. 20 Q: So -- but that would include land 21 south of -- of -- of Highway 21 then? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. Now, I believe I recall you 24 saying this morning that on the night of September the 25 6th you were -- you had been posted down at the beach to
1751 watch out for the police in case they were coming in that 2 direction, or from that direction. Is that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I think you said that Mr. Robert 5 Isaac was the one who had posted you there? 6 A: It was Worm and Robert. 7 Q: Worm and -- and Robert, yes. 8 A: Yeah, because they were like side by 9 side and I really don't know who told me that, but I know 10 that it was one (1) of them. 11 Q: It was one (1) or the other of them. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yes, and -- and I mean, Worm is Mr. 14 Stewart George, is that correct? 15 A: I guess that's his name. 16 Q: And were either Stewart George, Worm, 17 or Robert Isaac, were they people that were involved in 18 ensuring that there were people in appropriate places 19 that night to watch for the -- the OPP? 20 A: I'm not too sure. 21 Q: They just happened -- 22 A: They just -- you know, I just 23 happened to come along and, you know, they're like, are 24 you here to help us out? I was like, yeah. So when he 25 told me what to do, I was like, I got your back.
1761 Q: I see, okay. I take it you know 2 Marlin Simon? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And he gave evidence at this Hearing 5 on October the 12th. Did you happen -- were -- were you 6 here that day? Did you hear Marlin Simon give evidence? 7 A: I was in Calgary. 8 Q: You were in Calgary. Is it cold 9 there yet? 10 A: Oh, there was lots of snow last 11 month. 12 Q: There was lots of snow last month. 13 Mr. Simon, when he gave evidence spoke about setting up 14 and establishing certain observation posts in the Park. 15 And I'm just going to read you quickly from some of his 16 evidence. 17 He's talking about two (2) gates on 18 Matheson Drive that are entrances into the Park and he's 19 asked the question: 20 "Q: And do you know whether -- " 21 Oh, I'm sorry for counsel, this is on page 22 186 of Marlin Simon's evidence on October the 12th and 23 it's cross-examination by Ms. Jones. And Ms. Jones 24 asked: 25 "Q: And do you know whether or not
1771 any steps were taken to barricade 2 either of those areas after you went 3 into the Park so the people couldn't 4 get in? 5 A: No. They've got a gate across 6 Matheson Drive -- 7 Q: Right. 8 A: -- which they used to close after 9 a certain at night and then we just 10 closed that off and built -- that we 11 had an observation post right there. 12 Q: Right. That was right on Matheson 13 Drive and that was the observation post 14 at Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And then you said there was one 17 (1) by the water treatment plant. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And one by the sandy parking lot. 20 A: There was a couple by the sandy 21 parking lot." 22 And then skipping a few lines. 23 "Q: And you've told us that people 24 set up observation posts? 25 A: Yes.
1781 Q: And I understand from what you're 2 saying now that there would've been at 3 least of five (5) of them. Two (2) by 4 the sandy parking lot, one (1) by the 5 store, one (1) by the -- oh sorry, and 6 there was also one (1) by the store, 7 right? 8 A: One (1) by the store, yeah. 9 Q: And the water treatment? 10 A: No, no that's the one (1)-- that's 11 one (1) -- that's one (1) that on the 12 sandy parking lot. It's one (1) of -- 13 it's the one (1) by the store." 14 And again just skipping over and I'll just 15 read you one more brief exchange. 16 "Q: And it sounds to me like the 17 observation post you set up were on the 18 west side of the Park. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: So somehow people decided to set 21 up observation posts on the west side 22 of the Park? 23 A: Yeah, as they were going across. 24 Q: Okay. Because there was -- the 25 first observation point would have been
1791 behind the water treatment plant and 2 there would have been another one (1) 3 at the corner of the beach. And 4 another one (1) probably over by the 5 parking lot." 6 Now I apologize for taking so much time to 7 read that, Mr. George, but Mr. Simon describes a series 8 of observation posts along the west side of the Park. 9 Would you agree that people had set up observation posts 10 along the west side of the Park? 11 A: There was observation posts set up 12 way before this even happened. 13 Q: Yes. Even -- before September the 14 6th, you mean? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Yes. And those observation posts 17 were manned or -- or -- there were people in those 18 observation posts at appropriate times for the purpose of 19 watching out for the OPP, is that correct? Or -- or 20 perhaps for other people that might seek to challenge 21 their right to be in the Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And if you could turn, sir, to the 24 map behind you, could you tell me whether there was a -- 25 you see the area between the gate to the Park just south
1801 of the turnstile where the Park gate is, do you see that? 2 Yes. 3 Was there an observation post between that 4 gate and Army Camp Road in that area that is south of 5 that sand pile that sticks out into the sandy parking 6 lot? Was there an observation post in that area? 7 A: Not that I'm aware of. 8 Q: You don't recall seeing -- 9 A: You mean -- you mean in here 10 somewhere? 11 Q: Yes, in that area there. I suggest 12 to you that it might have been an appropriate place to 13 put an observation post because there was the 14 possibility, was there not, that the police spotters or 15 police officers might want to observe what was going on 16 inside the Park by coming along the bush on the south 17 side of East Parkway Drive? 18 Is that a possibility that you would 19 recognize? 20 A: There could have been one (1) set up 21 right at the gate when you go into the Park. 22 Q: There was one (1) set up at the gate 23 but you were saying you don't -- you don't know of an 24 observation post between the gate and that curved line 25 that goes towards Army Camp Road, is that correct?
1811 A: Yes. 2 Q: Are you familiar with the terrain in 3 that particular area, at all? Did you ever have occasion 4 to walk through there or see that area? 5 A: There's a great big crick that runs 6 through there and it's real bushy. 7 Q: It's very bushy in there? 8 A: Yes. A lot of trees. 9 Q: And when you -- when you were down on 10 the beach on September the 6th, watching for the police, 11 you mentioned that when you first saw a couple of shadowy 12 figures along the way, you took off your white T-Shirt 13 and running shoes and concealed yourself so that those 14 shadowy figures couldn't see you, in order that you could 15 better observe them. Is that right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I take it that a person in that 18 bushy area that we're now discussing, if he -- if there 19 were someone in there that was observing to see if the 20 OPP were coming through the bush on the other side of the 21 road, that that individual might want to hide himself so 22 that he could not be seen, too. 23 And I guess the question I would put to 24 you is, from your knowledge of that area was there any 25 shelter in there that a person could hide behind in order
1821 to observe what was coming up Army Camp Road or in the 2 bush south of the road? 3 A: I don't know. Maybe a couple of 4 bushes. 5 Q: A few bushes? 6 A: Maybe. 7 Q: Was there -- 8 A: There's like a little sandy area 9 right on the corner there. 10 Q: A sandy area right on the corner. 11 A: Yeah, it's all sandy. There's like a 12 big hill there and there's like a few trees. 13 Q: Was this a berm or a hill there, a 14 pile of sand there? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And would that be large enough for a 17 person or two (2) people to hide -- to hide behind? 18 A: Could be. 19 Q: Did you see any -- any digging in 20 that area, any areas that had been dug out in order to 21 afford a place of protection? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You didn't see any? 24 A: No. 25 Q: One thing I didn't get exactly
1831 straight from your evidence, sir, was -- you said that 2 your brother, Cecil Bernard George, brought -- and you 3 weren't sure whether they were scanners or walkie-talkies 4 that night. 5 But I take it from what you've said that 6 they must have been what people have so far -- so far 7 referred to as scanners, OPP scanners, because you were 8 able to overhear OPP conversations on those scanners or 9 instruments or whatever they were, is that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: You could -- I mean you heard the OPP 12 saying the badgers are in the Park and you heard the OPP 13 probably from the boat talking about the fire you built, 14 right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you said that you -- 17 A: I only -- 18 Q: Pardon me? 19 A: You can put those things on the 20 certain frequency and hear whatever's being said over the 21 -- over the -- 22 Q: Over them, yes. And you said, I 23 think, that your brother did not give you one (1) of 24 them. Is that right? 25 A: No. He like, handed them out. I
1841 forget who he handed them out to, but I was like hanging 2 around one (1) for a little while. 3 Q: But you were -- you were -- when you 4 were down at the beach is when you overheard things on 5 one (1) of those scanners, is that correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And who was down there with you that 8 had one (1), do you recall? 9 A: No. 10 Q: You can't recall who it was? 11 A: No. 12 Q: But there was someone else down there 13 with you that had one (1) -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- of these scanners. 16 A: 'Cause he brought like two (2) of 17 them with him. 18 Q: He brought two (2) of them? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: You told Mr. Worme this morning, Mr. 21 George, that you gathered a pile -- you'd gathered rocks 22 and put them along the fence line north of the turnstile 23 inside -- inside the fence, north of the turnstile, you'd 24 placed -- gathered rocks and placed them in that 25 location. Is that right?
1851 A: Yes. 2 Q: Who's idea was that, sir? 3 A: Mine. 4 Q: Yours? And what did you -- why -- 5 why did you think you needed rocks there? 6 A: There was a threat. 7 Q: There was a threat of what? 8 A: Our lives in danger. 9 Q: And were you going to save your lives 10 with rocks? 11 A: Sure. If we were looking for a gun 12 fight, we sure wouldn't hide behind no wired fence. 13 Q: I understand that. 14 A: You have to understand, too, that 15 Indians, 90 percent of them are raised to hunt. Usually 16 it's one (1) shot, one (1) kill. Why would we want to 17 even attempt to hide behind a little fence and go to -- 18 go have a gun battle in an open field. 19 Q: You took me wrong, sir. I wasn't 20 suggesting that you were going to hide behind a fence and 21 have a gun battle, I was only asking you -- I guess I was 22 trying to get you to -- or I was suggesting to you that 23 you put those rocks along the fence that day because you 24 contemplated a fight with the OPP. 25 A: OKA was going on at the same time, we
1861 didn't know what was going to happen. 2 Q: But you were prepared to make it a 3 fight if the OPP came inside the Park, weren't you? 4 A: Oh, yes. 5 Q: Mr. Worme asked you about your -- the 6 evidence you gave in the Deane trial. Do you remember 7 being at the Ken Deane trial and giving evidence? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And there was discussion there about 10 -- and you -- you've indicated a couple of times in your 11 evidence today that you had a baseball bat in your hand? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I think you were asked at the 14 Deane trial and you agreed that those baseball bats must 15 have been brought into the Park by someone. They 16 didn't -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: They weren't found in the Park. And 19 do you have any idea who was bringing baseball bats into 20 the Park? 21 A: Not every single body had a baseball 22 bat, I mean there was -- 23 Q: I understand. 24 A: -- a few baseball bats that we found 25 in cars and would find, like, a big club or something
1871 like that. It's not like everybody had one. 2 Q: Some people had sticks, some people 3 had pipes, some people had baseball bats. Is that right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And these were -- you're saying these 6 are things you found in cars? 7 A: Anywhere. 8 Q: Well, you wouldn't find baseball bats 9 lying around a Provincial Park, would you? 10 A: Well, probably not, maybe some sticks 11 or a club or something. 12 Q: Some sticks? 13 A: But, you know, we'd, like, dig around 14 and see whatever we could find. 15 Q: And can you help the Commissioner at 16 all in giving him any information about -- I mean -- and 17 you may not be able to and if you cannot, please say so, 18 as to who brought any baseball bats or pipes into the 19 Park? 20 A: I haven't the slightest idea. 21 Q: You haven't the slightest idea. 22 Thank you, sir. Now, you said this morning that when the 23 police approached the fence the first time, that there 24 was some yelling and swearing going on across the fence 25 and that there was also clubbing by both sides across the
1881 fence. Is that correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now, I'm going to put you -- put to 4 you the evidence that was given here on November the 8th 5 by Clayton George. Do you know Clayton? 6 A: Probably if I seen his face. 7 Q: He's the brother of David George. 8 Does that help? 9 A: You mean Joe George? 10 Q: Joe, or Kokomo Joe, is actually the 11 nickname of Clayton George and David George is his 12 brother and I'm not sure what David's nickname is, if he 13 has one (1). 14 A: Yeah, I know who he is. 15 Q: You know who he is? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Kokomo Joe, you recognize? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And he gave evidence here and for the 20 benefit of Counsel this is the evidence of Clayton George 21 on November the 8th in his examination-in-chief, and I'm 22 reading from Page 27 last line and over onto Page 28 and 23 -- and Mr. George says: 24 "The first time they were coming down 25 the road they were walking and I think
1891 they were doing double time at some 2 point. Then they -- they walked -- 3 come up so far to the fence and we were 4 standing along the fence on -- inside 5 the Park hollering obscenities -- 6 obscenity words -- words back and forth 7 to the Cops. Then they backed off and 8 then come back again and that's when 9 they were doing double time." 10 And I'll just read you --. 11 A: What does "double time" mean? 12 Q: I think he means that they were 13 running or stomping their feet in quick, rapid succession 14 so as to -- well, I -- I can't interpret his evidence 15 more than that, but I -- that's what I understood him to 16 mean when he said, double time, that they were running. 17 And then, on cross-examination -- on Page 18 103 he's being cross-examined by Mr. Sandler and he's -- 19 and Mr. Sandler asks, 20 "Now a few more questions about the 21 actual confrontation. When the police 22 rushed the fence, there were Occupiers 23 outside of the fence. We know that. 24 Right, just the first time when my 25 uncle's dog got kicked.
1901 So there were Occupiers outside the 2 fence. The police came up to the fence 3 and the police withdrew once you were 4 all behind the fence. Am I right so 5 far? Yes. And they never do come into 6 the Park, do they? No, no, not past 7 the fence." 8 And then skipping a few lines, Mr. Sandler 9 asks: 10 "And they didn't touch us or they 11 didn't touch you when you were behind 12 the fence line. Is that right? 13 Answer: Yes.? 14 Now, it's quite clear, I think, from that 15 -- from those passages that Kokomo Joe didn't see any 16 clubbing over the fence that night when the police 17 approached the line. Are you quite sure that you saw 18 clubbing when the police came up to the fence the first 19 time by both sides across the fence? 20 Or is it possible, sir, that you're 21 recollection these many years later, is somewhat blurred 22 and that you had in mind the clubbing that occurred later 23 on -- on the third approach to the fence? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's an 25 objection from Ms. Jackie Esmonde.
1911 MR. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, I just wanted 2 to say if he's trying to refresh Mr. George's memory, he 3 may also wish to read from the events of Michael Cloud 4 who spoke about there being hitting back and forth across 5 the fence. Just to be fair to the witness that were 6 other witnesses who gave different evidence than Clayton 7 George. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well let's 9 wait until you hear the question. You haven't asked your 10 question yet, have you? 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 13 Q: I did ask my question, sir. My -- my 14 question was in light of what Mr. -- now I'm confused. 15 A: Well, to me it seemed like there was 16 right from the beginning. First rush, second rush, third 17 rush. Yes. Clubbing. 18 Q: There was clubbing across the fence 19 each time? 20 A: Yes. Yes. 21 Q: On the third time though I think you 22 said the occupiers rushed -- jumped over the fence and 23 went out into the sandy parking lot. 24 A: Yeah. They were -- they were in the 25 parking lot by then.
1921 Q: So the third time at least there 2 wasn't clubbing over the fence. 3 A: There was clubbing in the parking 4 lot. 5 Q: There was clubbing in the parking 6 lot. And you evidence is is that to the best of your 7 recollection there was clubbing over the fence the first 8 and second time that the police approached the fence. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now you said this morning that you 11 remember giving a statement to the SIU on October the 12 14th of 1995 to Investigators Kennedy and Wilson. Do you 13 remember that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And Mr. Worme asked you if you 16 recollected the -- the statements you made on that 17 occasion to those Investigators about what were -- you 18 were calling spotters with flashlights on either side of 19 the -- of the corner railing? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And I believe that you told Mr. Worme 22 that you don't -- I'm not sure what you told him. Did -- 23 did you tell him that you don't remember giving those 24 statements to the OPP invest -- or the SIU Investigators? 25 Or are you saying you no longer have any recollection of
1931 there being spotters on either side of the corner? 2 A: I have no recollection to this day of 3 saying those words. 4 Q: Do you recall, at all, seeing any -- 5 do you -- I mean -- 6 A: The OPP spotters you're talking 7 about, I don't remember. 8 Q: Don't remember? 9 A: I cannot remember. 10 Q: When -- if you could turn around and 11 look at the map please, sir? That area that we were 12 talking about where I asked you if there were any 13 observation posts. 14 I think I could take you to the evidence 15 you gave to the OPP -- or the SIU on October the 14th. 16 But I would invite you to take my word for it that you 17 indicated that there were at that time that you recalled 18 seeing two (2) spotters somewhere near that sand hill 19 that is on that curve that we spoke of between the gate 20 and Army Camp Road. 21 And that the other spotters were on the 22 other side of the corner near -- somewhere near the 23 driveway to the first cottage. And I guess the question 24 that I would ask you now, sir, is do you remember seeing 25 anybody in those areas during the confrontation or
1941 slightly before it on September the 6th of 1995? Do you 2 remember seeing anyone in those areas? 3 A: There were like police everywhere. 4 And no, I don't remember seeing these OPP spotters but 5 that whole road was littered from here to way down the 6 road with cops. They were everywhere. 7 Q: Yes. In -- in your statement to the 8 O -- to the SIU on October the 14th, do you recall that 9 your counsel was there, Mr. Brown? 10 A: Maybe if I seen him. 11 Q: And he asked you a certain number of 12 questions, do you remember that? 13 A: Nope. 14 Q: And -- and you told him in the course 15 of that questioning, that the figures that you saw up in 16 that area you couldn't see very well. They were just 17 dark figures crouched down. And you couldn't see any 18 batons or shields. 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Excuse me, Mr. McGilp. 20 Was this communication between lawyer and counsel or was 21 it in the context of an -- SIU? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I see. 23 MR. IAN MCGILP: It's the SIU statement. 24 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume it
1951 would be in the transcript -- 2 THE WITNESS: Well, where's that? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You could 4 refer to is. You just -- 5 THE WITNESS: Let me see what you're 6 reading there? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're just 8 giving us a synopsis of it are you? 9 MR. IAN MCGILP: Yes, I am sir. I'll -- 10 for the -- to be fair to the witness, I'll -- I'll read 11 two (2) passages from two (2) exchanges from the SIU 12 statement of September the 14th -- or October the 14th 13 and he's being -- Mr. George is being questioned by his 14 Counsel, Colin Brown. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 17 Q: And I will first take you the very 18 bottom of Page 32 for the benefit of Counsel. Mr. Brown 19 says: 20 "The spotters. What were the spotters 21 wearing?" 22 Answer: 23 "The whole riot squad was in camouflage 24 from head to toe". 25 Mr. Brown:
1961 "All right. And the spotters. The two 2 (2) guys with flashlights, could you 3 see if they were dressed the same as 4 the other guys?" 5 "Yeah" 6 "And did they have shields?" 7 "Yep" 8 "Batons?" 9 "Yep." 10 And now I would turn over to Page 34, the 11 bottom quarter of the page. Mr. Brown says: 12 "Now you say you saw officers in the 13 lead, right? 14 "Yeah." 15 "Were they also in the same riot gear?" 16 "Yeah." 17 "And they had shields in the weeds?" 18 "You couldn't see the shields?" 19 "All right. How did you know they were 20 there? What could you see?" 21 "You could just see them crouched 22 down." 23 "So what were you able to make out?" 24 " Just figures". 25 "Figures? So do you know if they had
1971 helmets?" 2 "No, couldn't tell, just a dark 3 figure". 4 And the question I have, Mr. George, is do 5 you recall at all seeing dark figures in that area that 6 we've been discussing? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You don't have any recollection of 9 that at all? 10 A: No. 11 Q: I would point out to you, sir, that 12 in 1997 when the Ken Deane trial -- you remembered it in 13 1995 and when the Ken -- Ken Deane trial occurred in 14 April of 1997, you were able to tell the Judge in that 15 case about those spotters, too. Do you recollect that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: So you remembered them -- seeing them 18 in 1995 and you remembered in 1997 but you can't remember 19 today at all, seeing anybody in that area? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Thank you, sir. Now, you told Mr. 22 Worme this morning that you could hear Slippery yelling 23 or -- pardon me, your brother, Cecil Bernard George whom 24 I think people call Slippery by nickname. 25 You said that you heard him yelling at the
1981 police something about this is our land and this -- we're 2 unarmed and this is a peaceful demonstration. Is that 3 right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you told Mr. Worme that when you 6 grow up with somebody, then you're able to distinguish 7 his voice, even in -- even in a crowd of yelling 8 individuals. Is that right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, I'm going to take you, sir, to 11 the evidence of Mr. Glen Bressette who gave evidence here 12 a few days ago, on November the 9th of this year. And 13 I'm reading from page 242, line 12. Question -- and this 14 is examination in-chief. 15 Question: 16 "And when Mr. Cecil Bernard George went 17 out into the parking lot, what was he 18 carrying?" 19 Answer: 20 "He had a club". 21 "And can you tell me what type of club 22 he was carrying?" 23 "It looked like a wooden club". 24 "And do you know how long it was?" 25 "Maybe this long".
1991 "And by that you mean about four (4) -- 2 three (3) or four (4) feet?" 3 "Three (3) or four (4) feet". 4 "And did you hear Mr. Cecil Bernard 5 George say anything to the police 6 officers?" 7 Answer: 8 "I'll take you on, man" 9 "Did he say anything else?" 10 "No." 11 "And do you recall him other -- saying 12 something like they were a bunch of 13 assholes?" 14 "No, I don't remember that". 15 And I'm now skipping down a few lines to 16 page 243, line 18. And he's referred to his -- Mr. 17 Bressette has referred to his statement to the SIU on 10 18 of September 1997 and it -- and the question is, 19 "If you go down to page 4 you will see 20 the -- the fourth entry down where it 21 says 'Glen, can you just read that, the 22 part where it says, Slippery goes 23 running out there'." 24 "Yeah, with the -- with the club in his 25 hand?"
2001 "Yeah." 2 "'Come on then you bunch of assholes. 3 I'll take you on.'" 4 "And then?" 5 "And then that's when they grabbed 6 him." 7 So the question I would ask you, sir, did 8 you hear Cecil Bernard George saying that he'd take on 9 the OPP that night? 10 A: No. I didn't even see him. I 11 couldn't even see him from where I was. 12 Q: But you could hear him? 13 A: But I could hear him. 14 Q: And did you hear him say that, I'll 15 take you on, you assholes? 16 A: Not that I recall. 17 Q: You don't recall him saying that he 18 would take them on at all? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Thank you, sir. You said the -- I 21 forget which questioner was asking questions, but you 22 said that Cecil Bernard George almost died three (3) 23 times on the way to the hospital. Is that right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And were you one (1) of the people
2011 that took him to the hospital? 2 A: No. 3 Q: So, how do you know that? 4 A: I seen his medical report. 5 Q: You saw his medical report? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And was that a -- a report from the 8 hospital or what? 9 A: I'm not too sure. 10 Q: And what did it say? 11 A: It said he almost died three (3) 12 times. 13 Q: Okay, thank you. You said that when 14 the bus came out of the Park that night, on September the 15 6th we're talking, it I understand it correctly you were 16 still at the north end of the fence line, is that 17 correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what were the OPP doing at that 20 time? 21 A: Retreating down the road. 22 Q: So, it's quite clear in your mind 23 that the OP -- OPP were retreating when the bus exits the 24 Park and hits the dumpster, is that right? 25 A: Yes.
2021 Q: Yes. And we know -- we've been told 2 by different witnesses that Nick Cottrelle was driving 3 the bus. Do -- do you know that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And, I believe you told -- 6 A: And Leland George was hiding in there 7 with his dog and his dog got shot. 8 Q: His dog got shot? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: So, Mr. Leland George was on the bus 11 with Nick Cottrelle? 12 A: He was hiding. 13 Q: He was hiding? 14 A: Yeah, and he didn't know that the bus 15 was actually going somewhere. 16 Q: Oh, I see. 17 A: And then when they got shot, that dog 18 saved his life. 19 Q: I see, and I take it you didn't know 20 that -- I mean, how do you know that Mr. Leland George 21 was hiding on the bus? 22 A: Because it was known later. 23 Q: Someone told you that later? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Was it Leland that told you that or
2031 someone else? 2 A: It could have been. 3 Q: You're not sure who told you that? 4 A: But I remember. 5 Q: And, so I take it then that from your 6 position at the north end of the fence line you couldn't 7 really see whether or not anyone other than Nick 8 Cottrelle got on the bus at that point? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: You could or you could not see? 11 A: No, I couldn't see. 12 Q: You couldn't see? Now, I think you 13 said this morning that, as I understood your evidence, 14 you -- you went up East Parkway Drive during the 15 confrontation; you followed the car up East Parkway 16 Drive? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that you got more or less to the 19 -- you were more or less right behind the bus and the car 20 when they were stopped, is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then at some point, then -- I'm 23 not just sure whether the bus was backing up or -- I 24 mean, when did the shooting start? Had the bus started 25 backing up, or the car started backing up when the shots
2041 were fired or no? 2 A: It -- it -- it seemed like when the 3 bus started backing up. 4 Q: The bus started backing up and the 5 shots occurred almost simultaneously? 6 A: It -- it could have been the car, 7 too, because I think the car left first and then the bus 8 followed. 9 Q: The car started reversing first? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And the bus followed? And where 12 would you put the first shots you heard in relation to 13 those two (2) events? Simultaneous? Before the backup? 14 Or after the backup? 15 A: Right after the backup. It didn't 16 move too far, like, a foot or something -- just a couple 17 of feet and then it started. 18 Q: Just -- so the backup had just barely 19 begun -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- and -- when -- when the shots 22 occurred. And after the shots -- after you heard the 23 shots, you were jogging or running back to the Park, is 24 that right? 25 A: Yes.
2051 Q: And so you were still on the asphalt 2 -- on the road as the shooting was going on, is that 3 right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Can you remember, sir, when you were 6 running back to the Park while the shooting was going on, 7 do you recall if you had a club or a bat in your hand at 8 that time? 9 A: I did when I first went running up 10 there and I threw it. 11 Q: When you first went running up behind 12 the car? Is that what you mean? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And you threw it at the police at 15 some point? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And did you pick up another one? 18 A: No. 19 Q: So, when you were running back you 20 had nothing in your hands, or -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You had rocks in your hands, perhaps? 23 A: No, I didn't have nothing in my 24 hands. 25 Q: You had nothing in your hands.
2061 A: Because I threw a bat and then I was 2 throwing some rocks and then the bus started backing up 3 and then when they started backup up, that's when I 4 turned around and went running back and then it was, 5 like, they started shooting. 6 Q: Okay, thank you, sir. Forgive me, 7 Mr. George, my papers are getting lost here. I'm going 8 to refer you again to your statement to the SIU on 9 October the 14th, 1995, and for the benefit of Counsel 10 I'm referring to Page 14 and 15 of that statement. And 11 you -- you tell the SIU investigators certain things with 12 respect to you seeing Dudley on your way back to the 13 Park. 14 And -- and Investigator Kennedy says: 15 "Q: And when did you first learn that 16 Dudley had been hit? 17 A: I was going almost to the fence 18 and Dudley -- 19 Q: You're referring to now almost to 20 the fence and the gateway? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what did you find out? 23 A: Dudley beside, like, beside me and 24 there was a few others and he fell on 25 the ground and we went running up to
2071 him and said what's the matter with 2 you? And he goes, they got me, and you 3 could see blood all over the place. 4 Q: So you virtually beside him when 5 he dropped? 6 A: Yeah." 7 I will also take you, in fairness, to the 8 evidence you gave in-chief at the Dean trial on April the 9 2nd and that's at page 237, covering the same matter. At 10 the very bottom of page 237, the question is: 11 "Q: Did you see anybody you knew as 12 you were running towards the Park? 13 A: I had my head to the ground. 14 Q: Okay. Where did you get to? 15 A: I was almost to the Park. 16 Q: And then what happened? 17 A: I seen Dudley fall." 18 Now in those two (2) instances, Mr. 19 George, you seem to indicate both in your statement to 20 the SIU and your statement to the judge in the Deane 21 trial, that you saw Dudley fall and that Dudley was 22 standing right beside you when he fell. Does that square 23 with your recollection today? 24 A: Everybody was running back in one (1) 25 direction.
2081 Q: Towards the Park? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Yes. And when you first saw Dudley, 4 was he on his feet or was he already on the ground? 5 A: I think he was on the ground. 6 Q: You -- you recall those two (2) 7 statements that I just read you from your -- the evidence 8 you gave at the Deane trial and the statement you gave to 9 the SIU on October the 14th. It was quite clear in those 10 two (2) occasions your recollection was that he was on 11 his feet standing right beside you when he fell. 12 Does that refresh your memory today? 13 A: No. 14 Q: I'm going to ask you to -- I'm going 15 to take you to the evidence of Mr. Elwood -- Elwood 16 George. Do you know Elwood George? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And he gave evidence on November the 19 3rd at this Hearing and I'm reading from page 123 of his 20 examination in-chief -- or pardon me, it's -- yes it's 21 examination in-chief of Elwood George on November the 3rd 22 at page 123 and Ms. Vella is asking questions. 23 And there's a reference to Dudley saying 24 he was hit and Ms. Vella asked: 25 "Q: What happened after you heard
2091 those words? 2 A: I went over to him. He wasn't -- 3 he wasn't moving like he usually does. 4 He was a lot slower. So -- so I helped 5 him get back into the fence. I put his 6 one (1) arm around me. Anyways he took 7 -- he was able to take two (2) or three 8 (3) steps before he became limp. And I 9 believe he went to the ground. 10 At that time I hollered for help to get 11 him back into -- to the Park. Help did 12 -- help did come. I don't even know 13 who it was but we did get him back to 14 the gate of the Park and I went back to 15 help with the bus and whoever was still 16 out there." 17 Skipping a couple of lines. 18 "Q: Now when you first saw Mr. Dudley 19 George after he spoke those words, was 20 he standing on his own? 21 A: Yes, he was. 22 Q: Did -- was he -- did he take any 23 steps before you reached him? 24 A: Not that I noticed. It wasn't 25 until I was helping him that -- that I
2101 noticed he did take two (2) or three 2 (3) maybe four (4) steps before he 3 collapsed. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. And when he collapsed 5 did you say that he fell to the ground? 6 A: Yes." 7 Now I take it you were not one (1) of the 8 persons who helped Dudley George back into the Park, is 9 that correct? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Because if you didn't hear me, I said 13 after I seen him I froze. I sat down a few feet from him 14 and I didn't see. I was praying for the man and the only 15 time that I did look up is when people were carrying him 16 to the car. 17 Q: I see. And did you recognize Elwood 18 George as one of the people who was carrying him back to 19 the Park? 20 A: I don't know who they were. 21 Q: You don't know who they were. That 22 was a very shocking moment. 23 A: There was like -- like four (4) dudes 24 around there and it looked like two (2) women. 25 Q: Yes, as -- as far as you're able to
2111 recall, was anyone assisting Dudley George in the -- in 2 the manner described by Elwood George when he fell? 3 A: They picked him up and carried him. 4 Q: You -- I -- I understand that, but 5 the question I'm asking you is -- 6 A: I'm telling you what I seen. I don't 7 care what that says, I'm telling you what I seen. 8 Q: Okay, and did you see Dudley George 9 on his feet? 10 A: I can't remember. 11 Q: Thank you, sir. You said that after 12 the events terminated that the confrontation was over 13 that night, that the Park store was burned, but I believe 14 you said you didn't have anything -- you didn't 15 participate in the burning of it. Is that correct? 16 A: No, I went back down to the beach to 17 get my stuff. 18 Q: And do you -- do you know whether 19 Molotov cocktails were used to burn down the store? 20 A: I don't know. 21 Q: You don't know that? 22 A: No. I had nothing to do with that. 23 Q: We were told by Mr. -- I forget who 24 it was. Well, you don't know anything about that anyway, 25 so that doesn't -- that doesn't matter. I just have a
2121 couple more questions, sir, a few more questions about 2 the -- about the events of September the 7th. 3 When -- when you -- I mean you describe 4 walking down East Parkway Drive with a number -- a large 5 number of other individuals and came out of the Park and 6 watch -- walked down East Parkway Drive towards the 7 parking lot where the OPP had their command centre. 8 Do you recall that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yes? And there are certain documents 11 that have been produced to the Commission that indicate 12 that a Constable Ming (phonetic) -- and I'm referring to 13 Document Number -- for the benefit of Counsel -- it's 14 2001174 at page 151 and -- and this -- this statement was 15 part of the disclosure provided in the Regina vs. Abraham 16 et al. 17 And Constable Ming speaks of seeing 18 several individuals among the group that's going down 19 East Parkway Drive. He speaks of individuals dropping 20 off into the bush -- of First Nations persons dropping 21 off into the bush. 22 And there's also a statement in the same 23 document 2001174 by a Sergeant Macdonald (phonetic) who 24 says that he sees certain First Nations persons exiting 25 the East Parkway Drive into the bush.
2131 When you were marking down or walking down 2 East Parkway Drive that day, did you see Native persons 3 dropping off onto the bush on either side of the road? 4 A: No. 5 Q: You didn't see that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And did you see individuals in -- at 8 -- in the parking lot where the OPP were or around there 9 or in the bush around there, did you see any individuals 10 wearing bandanas over their face so as to disguise 11 themselves? 12 A: There was a couple. 13 Q: There were a couple? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: With bandanas? Now, you mentioned 16 this morning that later on that day -- later on on 17 September the 7th -- you returned back to the Park and 18 you met some strange men at the gate and you said you 19 looked at them and you didn't recognize a single face; is 20 that right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And, obviously they had not been in 23 the Park the previous three (3) days, September the 4th, 24 5th, and 6th, is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
2141 Q: And did you talk to them? Did you 2 ask them who they were? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And what did they tell you? 5 A: They said they were from Oneida. 6 Q: They said they were from Oneida? 7 A: Yeah. I didn't know who they were. 8 Q: Did they --? 9 A: They were all strange faces to me. 10 Q: Did they give you names which you 11 don't recall, or did they not give you names? 12 A: I don't think there was no names 13 said. 14 Q: They just said they were from Oneida? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And did you ask them what they were 17 doing there? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: What --? 20 A: They didn't -- they didn't tell me 21 nothing, they just walked down the road, so I followed 22 them. 23 Q: So, you followed them? 24 A: Where -- where are you going? 25 They're like, we're going to go down here and check it
2151 out. 2 Q: They said they were going down here 3 to check it out? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And did you know what they meant by 6 "here". 7 A: I kind of figured that they were 8 walking down to where the police were at. 9 Q: Where -- where the police vehicles 10 were, yeah. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And where there any police officers 13 in that location at that time? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And were you aware of that before you 16 went down there? 17 A: No. But we probably just figured 18 that there wouldn't be any, because they left anyway. 19 Q: Yes. And you mentioned that -- 20 A: Can I ask you a question? Did you 21 say you're on the OPP commission? 22 Q: No, I represent the Ontario 23 Provincial Police Association. 24 A: Oh, association. 25 Q: Which is -- well, you're not supposed
2161 to call it a union, because police officers can't join a 2 union, but it's like a union. 3 A: Yeah. I'm just wondering how I would 4 gotten charged with all this stuff when there was no 5 proof and no police officers to see me, actually say he 6 stole all this stuff. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This really 8 isn't the time and the place to answer -- ask or answer 9 those kind of questions. I think we want to finish 10 Counsel's examination. 11 MR. IAN MCGILP: I wouldn't be able to 12 answer that question in any event, Mr. George. I have no 13 familiarity with that at all. 14 THE WITNESS: Well, there's got to be 15 some -- some kind of proof of something. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, do you 17 want to go ahead and finish your examination? 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 20 Q: Thank you, sir. I just have one (1) 21 more question about the -- this event. You mentioned 22 that when you -- when you got down there with the 23 strangers from Oneida, that they -- I -- I'm not -- my 24 recollection isn't perfect, okay? But I think you said 25 they started shimmying open a van, first. Is that
2171 correct? 2 A: It might have been the police paddy 3 wagon first. 4 Q: That they started shimmying open? 5 And then I think you said that they drove off in it or -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- someone drove off in it. And what 8 did you do at that point? 9 A: There were, like, groups of them and 10 -- and, you know, at one time I jumped in the van, but I 11 jumped back out because, I don't know, there's like an 12 ambulance there and then we went and checked it out and 13 there was like all kinds of stuff in this ambulance, 14 right? It didn't even look like a ambulance. 15 Q: Weird stuff, you said, I believe? 16 A: yeah, like lights and stuff and look 17 like body bags and there was just a bunch of stuff in 18 there. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. And you mentioned that 20 several of those vehicles were -- were driven away by 21 these individuals whom you did not know, is that right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did you -- why didn't you leave 24 when they started driving those vehicles away? 25 A: I did. I got a ride back in a
2181 ambulance. 2 Q: In the ambulance? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: That was one of the vehicles that was 5 located at the -- at that site? So you -- you were 6 driven back to where in the ambulance? 7 A: Back to the Park. 8 MR. IAN MCGILP: Back to the Park. Mr. 9 George, I appreciate your cooperation. Those are all my 10 questions. Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 12 Mr. McGilp. I think, Ms. MacAleer, you're last up. 13 MS. JENNIFER MACALEER: Mr. Commissioner, 14 we have no questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No 16 questions? thank you very much. That completes the 17 cross-examination. Mr. Worme, do you have any re- 18 examination? 19 MR. DONALD WORME: And I don't have any 20 re-examination. No. I'd like to thank this witness as 21 well. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then I think 23 we're done. Thank you very much for -- for coming and 24 for giving us your evidence. Thank you very much. 25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
2191 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 2 you're done. You don't have to come back. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 5 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Hearing 8 is now adjourned until tomorrow morning at ten o'clock. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: 10:00 a.m. tomorrow. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 13 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday November 23rd at 10:00 14 a.m. 15 16 --- Upon adjourning at 5:09 p.m. 17 18 19 20 Certified Correct 21 22 23 __________________________ 24 Dustin Warnock 25