11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 17th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) (np) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Mary Jane Moynahan )(np) 18 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 19 Trevor Hinnegan ) 20 21 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 22 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 23 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 3 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 4 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 5 Ian McGilp ) 6 Annie Leeks ) (np) 7 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 8 Robyn Trask ) (np) 9 10 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 11 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 12 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 13 Julian Roy ) (np) 14 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 15 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 16 17 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 18 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 19 20 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 21 Matthew Horner ) (np) 22 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 3 Craig Mills ) (np) 4 Megan Mackey ) (np) 5 Erin Tully ) 6 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 7 8 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 9 Anna Perschy ) 10 Melissa Panjer ) 11 Adam Goodman ) (np) 12 13 Tanya Pagliaroli ) (np) Jeff Bangs 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 7 4 5 WILLIAM LLOYD KING, Resumed 6 Continued Cross-Examination by Mr. Vilko Zbogar 10 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 39 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 90 9 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Megan Ferrier 96 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 100 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-962 Document Number 1000659. Sarnia 4 Observer article, Queen's Park to 5 Take Hard Line Against Park Occupiers: 6 Beaubien, September 06/'95. 10 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Good morning, 14 Commissioner. Good morning, Mr. King. 15 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 16 17 WILLIAM LLOYD KING, Resumed 18 19 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Mr. Commissioner, 20 yesterday we were looking at an article entitled, Queen's 21 Park to Take Line Against Occupiers, which was part of 22 Exhibit P-955 and there was question about the day of 23 that. 24 What I did last night was to pull from the 25 Inquiry productions, a copy of that article that actually
91 has the date written on it. And if it's -- it's Inquiry 2 Document Number 1000659 and given that this one has the 3 date on it and the other one doesn't, I wonder if it 4 might be useful to make this an exhibit? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 6 And it's got the date of September 6th on it? 7 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Right. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that the 9 date? 10 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Yes. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Or we can just accept 12 what -- why don't we just mark for the note for the 13 record that it is September the 6th? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Okay. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We don't need it to 17 make a place. 18 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Sure. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But, thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Whatever is the most 22 expeditious way -- it would be helpful if anybody 23 reviewing the record is clear as to what the date of that 24 is. So, as long as that's done. 25
101 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Between -- between 4 myself and Derry is that we should mark that, if that's 5 okay with you, Mr. Commissioner, maybe we should do that? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-962 then. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-962: Document Number 1000659. 10 Sarnia Observer article, 11 Queen's Park to Take Hard 12 Line Against Park Occupiers: 13 Beaubien, September 06/'95. 14 15 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: P-962? 16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 17 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Thank you. 18 19 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 20 Q: And I also asked you yesterday, Mr. 21 King, or you said that you were aware that Mr. Beaubien 22 had been speaking with an OPP officer or -- or with the 23 OPP on the 5th, right? You said that? 24 A: I -- I'm aware that he attended to 25 the -- the command post. What the exact date was I
111 couldn't say for sure, but he did inform me that he'd 2 been there. 3 Q: I think, as I recall you -- and I'm 4 just referring it back to what you said yesterday, you 5 said that when you spoke with Mr. Beaubien on the 5th, he 6 told you that he had been speaking with the OPP. 7 A: Only to the extent that I had several 8 conversations over several days. And I -- I can't say 9 for sure it was on the 5th; it could have been. 10 Q: Okay. Now, when he did tell you that 11 he was speaking with the OPP you naturally would have 12 expected or assumed that he might well have been having 13 further contact with the OPP during the course of the 14 incident? 15 A: I didn't really think about it. I 16 understood he was keeping in contact with whatever they 17 had set up to disseminate the information. 18 Q: So, you didn't think about whether he 19 might be speaking with him further or what the 20 implications of that might be? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. I also want to go back to 23 something you said yesterday about the -- well, you were 24 asked about the evidence that you gave under discovery 25 that Ms. Hutton may have told you that the Government was
121 not to be involved with the police operations. 2 And I want to as you a bit more detail 3 about that because the answer you gave yesterday -- and I 4 want to give you a chance to respond to this. The answer 5 you gave yesterday seems to be a bit yesterday than the 6 answer you gave on discovery and... 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm having a 8 little difficulty hearing you, Mr. Zbogar, I'd appreciate 9 it if you could speak into the mic. 10 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Thank you. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 13 Q: What I want to do first of all is 14 read you the question from yesterday and then give you a 15 copy of the transcript from discovery and ask you some 16 questions about it, okay? 17 A: Sure. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm -- 19 Q: And this is at page 256 and 257 of 20 the transcript. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 22 are you asking now about the transcript of the evidence 23 of yesterday? 24 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Well, I want to 25 refresh the -- I want to put on the -- well, let the
131 Witness know what was on the record from yesterday and 2 then put to him the discovery transcript from a couple of 3 years ago and ask him some questions about some 4 differences between those. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But why? I guess you 6 could do it either way, but why doesn't he simply say, 7 You said "X", you said "Y", you said "W"; is that 8 correct? And then if there's a contradiction, it's still 9 a contradiction. Then -- then deal with the discovery 10 and ask him responses on discovery? 11 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Oh, I'll do it as 12 expeditiously as possible, Mr. Commissioner. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 15 Q: But the -- the evidence from 16 yesterday you recall, Mr. King, was when you were asked 17 whether that comment was made you said: 18 "I don't recall. Lawyers keep asking 19 me these questions. Could this have 20 happened? May that have happened? And 21 I usually -- unless I know for a fact 22 that I couldn't have, I usually say 23 "yes." 24 A: Right. 25 Q: That's what you said yesterday.
141 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 2 following this so far, Mr. King? 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I -- I -- on 4 speculative questions I can't rule out possibilities -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 6 THE WITNESS: -- if I don't know for 7 certain that they're not possible. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 10 Q: Okay. What I'd like to do -- what 11 I'd like to do is give you a copy of one (1) page from 12 your transcript of discovery and specifically referring 13 to page 20 of your transcript from discovery on September 14 the 17th, 2001. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that in 16 our database? It's got a number. 17 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: It's -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you could 19 call it up for the other Counsel please? 20 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Mr. Commissioner, I 21 believe that the discovery transcript was sent out 22 separately from the database -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, okay. 24 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: -- so there's no 25 Inquiry document number I'm aware of.
151 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there any 2 what that you can make it available to other Counsel 3 or...? 4 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Hmm hmm. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 6 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I will read -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's go 8 ahead. Let's see how... 9 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I will read the 10 relevant parts to Mr. King -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 12 Let's see what happens. 13 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: -- him to respond. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 16 Q: So, yesterday you told us that, you 17 know, these sorts of answers you tend to give in response 18 to questions from lawyers. If something may have 19 happened you usually say "yes." But as I read it, that's 20 not what happened on the discovery, so I want to ask you 21 about that. 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: And what it says in the transcript 24 is... 25 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Wait a second.
161 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: My -- My Friend's 4 ahead of himself. If he wants to revisit the Witness' 5 evidence yesterday on a point he should just confirm what 6 that evidence was. Then if he thinks there's an 7 inconsistency in discovery, then he should go to the 8 discovery -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 10 -- that's what I -- 11 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- and ask the 12 Witness if -- well, okay, but in my submission it's not 13 appropriate -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- to be making these 16 sorts of -- arguments in advance of dealing with the 17 evidence properly. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 19 Mr. Downard; that's what Mr. Millar said. 20 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Well, I have -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 22 to confront him with testimony that he gave yesterday? 23 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I think I alread -- I 24 just did that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
171 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I already did that, 2 Mr. Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 4 So where are we? 5 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: And now what I want to 6 do step 2 which is -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there an 8 inconsistency? 9 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Well, it's not 10 necessarily an inconsistency it's just that the answer 11 that he gave yesterday -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But, you can't use a 13 discovery to impeach a witness unless there is a -- a 14 discrepancy. And -- and a -- that's what's -- what's the 15 whole purpose of it. If you say the sky is blue on 16 discovery, at trial you say the trial is pink and then 17 you can deal with it. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Use it. 19 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Here's -- here's the 20 issue, Mr. Commissioner. The -- he gave an answer 21 yesterday which was -- I guess first of all a little bit 22 speculative. What I want to do is put the -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that the 24 answer that you read just before? I thought it was a lot 25 speculative.
181 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: That was the last 2 answer read just before. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That was a 4 lot speculative. 5 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Right. What I propose 6 to do is put to him the context in which this information 7 came out in discovery. And -- and the reason I want to 8 do that is because with that context there may be -- I 9 want to ask, you know, this is a statement that he made 10 under oath previously. 11 I want to ask why he made that statement 12 under oath because the context in which that statement 13 was made under oath previously, is different than the 14 context he speculated it may have come out at that time. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm lost. 16 Yes, Mr. -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 18 may I make what I hope will be a helpful contribution? 19 Mr. Millar very correctly, of course, 20 stated the law with respect to using discovery 21 transcripts to impeach a witness at a civil trial. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Now, we can also 24 use a discovery transcript for quite a different purpose. 25 For example, to remind the witness of something that he
191 said earlier and to -- to explore slight differences and 2 so on without necessarily impeaching the witness. 3 And Mr. Zbogar intended to do that. He 4 indicated that he intended to do that and I don't 5 understand any of the objections so far and I would 6 respectfully request that he be allowed to just continue 7 and see if this discovery transcript assists Mr. King in 8 recalling matters or assist Mr. Zbogar in bringing out 9 the facts. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that what 11 you're trying to do? 12 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: That's -- that's 13 right. If -- Mr. Rosenthal is much more eloquent than I. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 Let's see what happens. 16 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Okay. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 19 Q: What I would like to do is refer you 20 to page 20 of your discovery transcript which I've put 21 before you, Mr. King. And starting question number 83 22 the question now: 23 "When you phoned Deb Hutton on the -- 24 on the time you mentioned, do you 25 remember what she told you.
201 A: Yes. 2 Q: What did she tell you? 3 A: She told me that the Government 4 was seeking an injunction to end the 5 illegal occupation of the Park. 6 Q: Did she tell you anything else? 7 A: I don't remember anything beyond 8 that. That was the thrust of my 9 question which was that are -- what is 10 the Government doing? She may have 11 said that with respect to the police 12 that this government was not involved 13 with the police [sorry, let me go 14 back]. 15 She may have said that with respect to 16 the police, that the Government was not 17 involved with the police activities, 18 that it was strictly involved with 19 using the court processes to resolve 20 the issue, resolve the occupation." 21 So, the reason I'm putting that to you is 22 when you gave the answer on discovery that Ms. Hutton may 23 have -- Mr. Millar asked me to read the next entry which 24 is: 25 "You may have said that --
211 Q: You may have said that. Do you 2 know why she may have said that?" 3 And -- and the answer is: 4 "Well, because it's -- it was -- and 5 this was typical of any conversations 6 involving the police on any issue, just 7 a reminder to all -- to us all that 8 politicians do not deal with police and 9 police do not deal with [turn over to 10 the next page which you don't have] 11 police do not deal with politicians. 12 That there is a clear separation 13 between those activities and the 14 Government's activities in the same way 15 that we don't call judges when our 16 constituents approach us about the 17 legals either." 18 So, what I wanted to ask you, Mr. King, 19 when you gave your answer on discovery that Ms. Hutton 20 may have told you this information about the police and 21 government interaction, you volunteered that without 22 being prompted by the examiner. 23 A: Actually they asked me if she said 24 anything else. 25 Q: Yeah.
221 A: So, in response to whether she said 2 anything else I said I don't remember. But then I said 3 she may have said in response to was there anything else. 4 Q: Right. But, she may have said any 5 number of things and the one you chose to say she may 6 have said out of that whole spectrum of things was -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- this particular point. 9 A: And -- and that's exactly -- and I 10 explained why I offered that particular speculation of 11 the whole range in the next answer. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 14 Q: Well, the question wasn't whether, 15 you know, what you thought it might have been appropriate 16 for her to say -- say, it was whether -- what you 17 recalled her saying. 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And I suggest to you that when you 20 said this at the time on discovery it wasn't because it 21 was a mere speculation on your part, you actually had 22 some -- some vague recollection perhaps, that something 23 like that was discussed with Ms. Hutton. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I -- 25 THE WITNESS: No.
231 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, he said 2 he didn't recall and then went on. 3 THE WITNESS: I -- I didn't recall. I -- 4 I --- I offered the reason why I suggested she may have 5 said this because -- and it's -- you've given me the 6 words here, "was typical of any conversation that would 7 have involved the police." 8 And as I testified yesterday, we all know 9 that and that's -- that's sort of the standard thing in 10 terms of politics and police officers is there's that 11 clear separation that you just read me on the page that I 12 don't have. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 15 Q: Have you from time to time spoken 16 with Ms. Hutton about this clear separation of police and 17 government? 18 A: I'm -- I'm just -- that -- when you 19 work in politics that's a given, so it's -- it's always 20 there whenever -- if ever there were police activities 21 and people were asking us about them. 22 Q: It's something that you take as a 23 given, you're -- you're aware of, but it's not something 24 that would have been discussed with Ms. Hutton to your 25 recollection?
241 A: As I said I don't remember; it may 2 have happened. 3 Q: Do your remember it happening at any 4 time even outside of the Ipperwash events? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 6 if it's something that happened outside Ipperwash events. 7 It's something that's going to be very -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I I guess he can ask 9 him, but he's -- the Witness has said he doesn't 10 remember; it may have happened. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I took from one 13 (1) of his answers that it may have happened at any time, 14 but -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 16 where else you can go with this now. 17 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Right. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: His 19 recollection isn't very good on this point and I think 20 you've gone as far as you can. 21 THE WITNESS: You've asked me many times 22 whether something may have happened in your questions and 23 this is another example of how I respond to that. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR:
251 Q: Right. And I've asked that question, 2 but what I'm putting to you is that when you were asked 3 this question on discover that's not how the question was 4 phrased. You picked this as one (1) example among many 5 possible examples to say this is what you may have said. 6 A: You're right. 7 Q: And well, let me suggest this to you. 8 You -- I -- I would suggest that you gave this answer as 9 one (1) -- as one (1) of the things she could have said 10 among many because you thought it might be helpful for 11 yourself or for Ms. Hutton? 12 A: I thought it would be helpful in 13 terms of getting the facts out. 14 Q: But, I think you said you were 15 speculating so I don't understand how this helps get the 16 facts out. Can you help me -- enlightening me on that? 17 A: Well, you're -- you're suggesting -- 18 I guess you're -- you're coming at my motives and I can 19 tell you my motives and if you think I had other motives 20 then that's your opinion. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 THE WITNESS: I -- I think I know my 23 motives. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR:
261 Q: I want to ask you about the idea of 2 clear separation between police and government which 3 we've spoken about. 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: And you were well aware of that at 6 the time and now, I take it, of that principle? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you understood why it was 9 important, that concept? 10 A: Yes, that's act -- that's my point. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Maybe -- it would be helpful for me 14 if you can maybe describe for me why that's important in 15 your understanding, the clear separation of police and 16 government? 17 A: Well, it's just a given. Politicians 18 don't, or governments, don't interfere in police 19 investigations and police activities. It's just the way 20 it always has been -- 21 Q: Okay. I understand that. And -- 22 A: You -- you wouldn't want political 23 interference in police activities. 24 Q: Do you have any understanding as to 25 why -- the -- the rationale for that principle?
271 A: Because it would probably screw up 2 the police activities. I -- I'm sorry, I've -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. King is 4 not a lawyer; that's a pretty good answer. 5 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: That's -- that's a 6 great answer. That's -- that's the most succinct and 7 precise answer I've heard of that in a long time. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 10 Q: Now, you're aware that in this 11 situation, the Ipperwash situation, in which there was an 12 OPP operation as well as some political interest in the 13 events that were happening on the ground, that it was 14 especially important to be mindful of that principle of 15 clear separation. 16 A: Absolutely. That's -- that's what 17 I've testified, yeah. 18 Q: And it would have been important for 19 everyone involved to be aware of that principle, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, you did not tell Mr. Beaubien 22 when you spoke with him on September 5th or 6th, or 23 remind him about the appropriateness or 24 inappropriateness, perhaps, of speaking with police 25 officers on operational matters; is that correct?
281 A: I don't think I -- I did in the way 2 that you phrase that question, no. 3 Q: And you did not attempt to dissuade 4 him from speaking with OPP officers or dealing with OPP 5 officers in any particular way in this incident, on 6 September 5th or 6th; is that correct? 7 A: No. There -- again, it's a little 8 different than your previous question. I take it as a 9 given that Marcel would know that you don't speak to 10 police about operational matters. Talking to the police 11 to find out what's going on and get information for your 12 constituents is entirely appropriate in my view, and I 13 didn't tell him not to do that. 14 Q: Okay. So, you didn't tell him that 15 maybe it wasn't a good idea to speak with OPP or -- or to 16 caution him on what he should have been speaking with the 17 OPP about? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And nothing was communicated to Mr. 20 Beaubien during the course of September 5th or 6th, 21 suggesting that he should not be interfering or seem to 22 be interfering with police operations? 23 A: Well, you've asked me if I did, and I 24 -- I didn't and I don't. I can't speak to what others 25 might have said to Mr. Beaubien.
291 Q: Now, you certainly could have done 2 that; you could have told Mr. Beaubien that, right? 3 A: You're getting me down this 4 speculation thing again. I could have told him any 5 number of things, correct. 6 Q: Well, for example, you did tell him - 7 - you did advise him against sending of the press 8 release. In the same way you could have advised him why 9 he should be careful in how he deals with the OPP? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He was asked 11 about that; that was the purpose of the call. 12 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Right. 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah. That's my point. He 14 -- he asked about whether he should be doing it. He 15 didn't ask my advice whether he should be getting 16 information from the police, no. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 19 Q: Okay. But, whether he asked for it 20 or not, it's information or advice you gave to him and 21 you could have given him advice on both of those things-- 22 A: Or -- or any -- you're right. Or any 23 other number of things I could have. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again, I 25 really don't not see how this is helpful. He could have
301 said anything under the sun. 2 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Right. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He was asked 4 about something, he gave him that advice. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 7 Q: Well, what I'd like to ask is: It 8 probably would have been a good idea to do that, to 9 remind him of that clear separation to make sure it was 10 clear; is that fair? 11 A: I had no reason to think he needed to 12 be reminded of that then. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And what do you base that on? 17 A: Well, when you have no reason there's 18 -- I'm not sure I had something to base it on. If I had 19 reason, then based on that reason I would have acted 20 accordingly, in the absence of a reason. I didn't 21 volunteer something that didn't occur to me that he 22 needed to know. 23 Q: I lastly want to ask you some 24 questions about these fax that Mr. Beaubien sent you on 25 September the 6th.
311 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that's Exhibit P-952, Inquiry 3 Document 1006196, and it's at Tab Number 2 of your 4 documents. We looked at this yesterday and -- and in the 5 cover letter that Mr. Beaubien sent to you, he states in 6 the -- in the middle paragraph -- do you have that with 7 you? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So, I'm looking at the cover letter 10 that Mr. Beaubien sent, and it says in the middle of the 11 paragraph that, according to Mr. Beaubien: 12 "The constituent agrees with my 13 suggestions of yesterday". 14 Do you see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, I want to ask you about what 17 suggestions Mr. Beaubien may have made to you yesterday, 18 I guess Sept -- in this context referring to September 19 5th, 1995. 20 A: Well, in that context I would have 21 thought his suggestions were, he was suggesting putting 22 out a news release, which is why he contacted me. 23 Q: Okay. So, he suggested putting out a 24 news release which was something you discussed. This fax 25 of September 6th, 1995 do you take it to mean that Mr.
321 Beaubien is saying that this constituent would be 2 agreeing with Mr. Beaubien's suggestion to put out a 3 press release, or do you think -- do you take it that he 4 was saying that the constituent agrees with suggestions 5 that -- other suggestions that Mr. Beaubien discussed 6 with you at that time? 7 A: The only suggestion that I recall Mr. 8 Beaubien making was that he was suggesting of putting out 9 a news release. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: So, that -- that's the only one I 12 recall. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Just -- if I could turn you to that 17 news release which is Exhibit -- Exhibit P-953 and it's 18 at Tab 1 of your materials, and it's Inquiry Document 19 1006195. 20 And there's a number of comments in that 21 press release, but there's one that I think could fairly 22 be described as a suggestion, and that is the -- the last 23 sentence that's underlined in that -- in that document; 24 it says: 25 "We must come to our senses and take
331 back control before something 2 irreparable happens." 3 Now, did Mr. Beaubien make a comment or 4 suggestion to you along those lines during your 5 conversation that you might now recall? 6 A: Not that I recall. 7 Q: All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, given that Mr. Beaubien states 12 in his cover letter on September the 6th that the 13 constituent seems to agree with Mr. Beaubien's 14 suggestions that he made to him on September 5th, I want 15 to ask you about some of those things. 16 It appears that the constituent's letter 17 suggests that the occupiers should be arrested for 18 trespass or charged with mischief. 19 I don't -- I could take you to the 20 specific paragraphs but I don't think you need to. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: Just to save time. But, do you 23 recall Ms. Beaubien saying anything along those lines to 24 you that the occupiers should be charged or arrested or 25 something like that?
341 A: I don't, no. I don't specifically 2 remember that. 3 Q: It's possible he may have or he 4 likely did? 5 A: I got into trouble for speculating 6 four (4) years ago. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: So, again, my answer is, anything is 9 possible. 10 Q: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If anything 12 is possible, it's not helpful. 13 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I know. I want to -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If anything 15 is possible. 16 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I understand -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If that's 18 his answer, it's not helpful. 19 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: -- Commissioner. What 20 I want to do is see whether there's something that's more 21 than a possibility that there might be a recollection 22 of -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but -- 24 you know, all he's saying is anything is possible, and I 25 don't find that helpful.
351 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I understand that, Mr. 2 Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I -- if -- if those 5 are the answers that I get then that's where we are but 6 I'm hoping -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but -- 8 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: -- we have some more 9 recollection than -- than -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 11 why you got to keep going. So, carry on. 12 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Yeah, I don't -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I don't know the 15 answers so -- to some of these questions, that's why I'm 16 asking them. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 19 Q: The constituent suggests that 20 something along the lines of laws must be enforced. Do 21 you recall having a discussion with Mr. Beaubien in which 22 he made that kind of suggestion to you? 23 A: Not specifically. I think the whole 24 tenor of all the discussions was whether a law was being 25 broken and if it was, it ought to be enforced; that's why
361 the Court -- or the Government was going to the Court to 2 get an injunction to do that. 3 Whether we discussed that on the 5th or 4 the 6th, I just -- it's too long ago to remember. 5 Q: All right. Now, this constituent's 6 letter which Mr. Beaubien states in his cover letter says 7 he's totally in agreement with. It further says, in the 8 context of saying that laws must be enforced. And let me 9 take you to the specific entry. 10 It's -- again, it's Exhibit P-952. The 11 first page of the constituent's letter; can you turn to 12 that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the second -- or the third 15 paragraph, at the very end it says: 16 "If people are hurt so be it. Laws 17 must be enforced to be respected." 18 Do you see that? 19 A: I see that. 20 Q: Do you -- did -- do you recall -- now 21 you said when you received this letter you would have 22 scanned it; do you recall having seen that, or that 23 having jumped out at you at the time? 24 A: Not -- not specifically. 25 Q: Okay. Now, the constituents all --
371 the constituents also suggest on the second page of his 2 letter, that the Government should or must stop taking a 3 non- confrontational approach when faced with Natives 4 undertaking illegal acts to enforce claims or air 5 grievances. 6 Did Mr. Beaubien pass along a suggestion 7 or comment like that to you at any time during the course 8 of your conversation with him on the 5th or 6th of 9 September? 10 A: I don't recall and I -- I don't think 11 so. 12 Q: And the constituents also refers to 13 the Conservative Government's law and order platform. 14 Did -- prior to this fax being received by you, did Mr. 15 Beaubien say something along the lines -- to you, along 16 the lines of, you know, This government, we campaigned on 17 a law and order platform, and we should stick to that or 18 something along those lines? 19 A: I don't remember anything along those 20 lines. 21 Q: All right. Thank you, those are my 22 questions. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 24 Mr. Zbogar. 25 Mr. Rosenthal...?
381 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Thank you, Mr. King. 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is your 7 original time estimate reasonably accurate now; it was a 8 half hour? 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. Reasonably -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Has it been 11 November 17, 2005November 17, 2005 shortened and has 12 been -- 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No it might -- it 14 might have expanded a little bit but I'll do my best to-- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Approximately 16 a half hour? 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I hope so, 18 yes. Of course as -- as you know very well, Mr. 19 Commissioner, sometimes it -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It depends 21 on -- 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- depends upon the 23 answers as to where -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 25 understand.
391 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- the cross- 2 examination goes, but I shall be -- I hope you have 3 observed my being very, very expeditious especially in 4 recent weeks. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've been 6 very good at keeping to times that you estimate. Thank 7 you, Mr. Rosenthal. 8 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 10 Q: Good morning, Mr. King. My name is 11 Peter Rosenthal. I'm Counsel on behalf of some of the 12 people from Stoney Point under the name Aazhoodena and 13 the George Family Group. 14 A: Good morning. 15 Q: I will keep my commitment to the 16 Commissioner to be expeditious, so I may move a little 17 bit more quickly than I might if we had a more leisurely 18 pace. 19 Now, if we could look at Tab 10 please. 20 It's a question of a buildup. Now, it's reported at Tab 21 10 and other articles subsequently. 22 Now, as I understood your evidence -- 23 A: I'm not sure I'm on the right -- I'm 24 not sure on the right tab. Is it the, "MPP admits 25 police"?
401 Q: "MPP admits he tipped police" 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Okay. Got it. 5 Q: Yes. I just wanted to put you in 6 that context -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- of that article and the subsequent 9 similar articles and the subsequent tabs. 10 And I believe that you explained to us 11 yesterday that as to whether or not Mr. Beaubien passed 12 onto you the information of an OPP buildup, it would 13 depend on what you mean by buildup? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Right. And that it -- it might have 16 been that he told you about OPP officers being there and 17 so on but he didn't tell you any -- a very massive 18 buildup or something like that; is that fair? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: So, in other words, it would upon the 21 definition of buildup as to whether he told you about 22 buildup. He told you something about officers? 23 A: Yeah. I -- I can tell you, sort of, 24 the way I -- I seem to recall it is, these are small 25 communities and you would have, you know, a couple of OPP
411 cruisers that work here everyday, so when the incident 2 happened at the Park there would be additional police 3 that would come in from elsewhere. And if that's a 4 buildup then I -- then I just took that as -- as a given, 5 yeah. 6 Q: Yeah. Sorry. If that's what he had 7 meant, and he did tell you about buildup, if he meant 8 something more extreme than that, then he didn't tell you 9 about buildup? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Is that your evidence? 12 A: It could be -- I -- I just -- if he 13 meant -- he talked about additional police coming, that's 14 what I thought he was talking about. 15 Q: Yes. Now, did Mr. Harris ask you 16 specifically, the extent to which Mr. Beaubien may have 17 communicated to you about there being a police buildup? 18 A: No. 19 Q: He didn't ask you that? 20 A: I don't believe he did, no. 21 Q: Now, you were the main person to 22 receive information from people like Mr. Beaubien on 23 behalf of Mr. Harris, right? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Now, in this article at Tab 10, the
421 last column, the third paragraph reads: 2 "But in May, Harris told the 3 legislature we knew nothing of any OPP 4 buildup. My staff heard nothing of any 5 buildup." 6 Now, sir, your evidence is that he did not 7 check with you before he made that comment? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Downard, 9 do you have an objection? 10 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yeah. I'm just -- 11 I'm just concerned because when -- and I -- we haven't 12 got a transcript, a Hansard reference from My Friend, but 13 when -- when -- the buildup that was being talked about 14 is -- is being used as a rhetorical term, one (1) of 15 those -- and a somewhat vague rhetorical term, and there 16 were state -- statements being made in the Legislature at 17 around that time of hundreds of OPP officers being 18 brought to the scene. 19 And so that's the sort of sense in which 20 buildup is being used in Hansard. So, it's -- one has to 21 be very careful to -- I think to -- to be -- to be fair, 22 to say, well Mr. Harris said we didn't know of any 23 buildup. Well, but, what was he being asked about as a 24 buildup at the time? 25 I'm -- I'm just concerned that this is a
431 little bit too -- to simple to be fair. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 3 see where Mr. Rosenthal's going. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With -- with 5 respect, Mr. Commissioner, that's a matter for argument. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He -- he -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it's 9 also amounts to fairness. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- this If Mr. -- 11 if Mr. Downard wants to argue that, he can argue it. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's also a 13 matter for fairness -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, and with 15 respect -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and 17 context and so on. So, it's not -- it's not an 18 irrelevant objection; it's useful. Now, the term 19 'buildup' -- 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- is what 22 we're talking about and -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- how and 25 where that word is used is significant.
441 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. And I've 2 gotten evidence from -- from -- one (1) second -- I'll 3 speak to the Commissioner first and then you. Given the 4 status, the relative status of people -- no, I'm sorry. 5 Now, I forget exactly what I was going to 6 say, but I -- I was just fastening on the question -- on 7 the question of him -- Mr. Harris, evidently referring to 8 staff and I had gotten from this Witness that Mr. Harris 9 had never asked him about buildup in any sense, I 10 presume. And I was just confirming that and then going 11 on -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and I don't 14 understand the propriety of Mr. Downard's objection. 15 It's -- he wants to argue, as he indicated, he can argue 16 that but -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he's 18 anticipating where you might be going and he's being 19 careful of -- 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 22 to speak to Mr. Zbogar before you carry on? 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, thank you, 24 sir. 25
451 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 4 move on then. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, Mr. Zbogar did 6 say something that would be useful, but I'll move on 7 rather than report it to you, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He had his 9 turn. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He had his 12 turn. Okay. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 15 Q: Now, if we could turn then to a 16 different tab. If we could turn to Tab 2, please, which 17 is Document Number 1006196, Exhibit P-952. And you were 18 asked about this by Mr. Zbogar and I won't go over what 19 he asked you. And I want to put a slightly different set 20 of context on it. 21 You told us yesterday that this was just 22 Mr. Beaubien assuring his constituent that his views were 23 being communicated to the Premier, right? 24 A: That -- that would have been my view 25 and how I received it, yes.
461 Q: Had you -- yes. Now, he refers to 2 his suggestions of yesterday -- it could be -- also be 3 said that he agrees with my suggestions of yesterday. 4 Now, sir, you told us you don't recall 5 what suggestions he may have given you, but I should like 6 to see if we can go from mere possibility to rather 7 concrete certainty about those suggestions based on the 8 documents, sir. 9 Now, is it not true, and I'll give you 10 time to read it over in great detail if you wish to, sir, 11 that the only concrete suggestion in the letter that 12 follows is under trespass -- as you well see is on the 13 second paragraph -- the third paragraph of it: 14 "Under Trespass law the occupiers can 15 be arrested. This should be done 16 immediately. Those responsible for 17 property damage should be charged with 18 mischief." 19 The only actual suggestion as to what to 20 do, is immediate arrest; is that not fair, sir? 21 A: Well, I think, as you said, I haven't 22 read the whole thing but -- 23 Q: Yes, well, please take your time and 24 make sure, sir. 25
471 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I would say that appears to be his 4 principle suggestion. 5 Q: Yes, the only actual concrete 6 suggestion. The rest of the letter, one might say, is 7 argument in support of that suggested action; isn't that 8 fair? 9 A: Fair. 10 Q: And you read this at the time? 11 A: I would have gone through it -- 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: -- quickly, yes. 14 Q: And you would have had the same 15 understanding then, ten (10) years ago, that you have 16 right now when you read the letter, correct? 17 That that was the concrete suggestion and 18 there was argument as to why this government, in 19 particular, given it's platform, should follow that 20 suggestion, right? 21 A: I would agree with that. 22 Q: Yes. So, there's no doubt, is there 23 sir, that when Mr. Beaubien refers in the previous page 24 to "agreeing with my suggestions of yesterday" that that 25 included some notion of immediate arrest.
481 Isn't that fair, sir? 2 A: I don't think I would have 3 interpreted his comment to me exactly that way. What I 4 got from that letter, what I get from Marcel, and what I 5 got from the government was more a sense of acting, or 6 having a resolution quickly. 7 And so it was all about timing, not how. 8 Clearly the Government's position was that they owned the 9 Park; it was a trespass; they were going to Court to get 10 some legal authority to evict them. 11 So, in a sense that's pretty well, maybe, 12 what the constituent was saying as well. Nobody really 13 said how you do that. The Government chose an option as 14 -- eventually as to how they were going to do that. 15 But, what I take from all these things 16 was, let's act quickly to resolve it. And that -- that's 17 what I think is the consistent theme between Marcel and 18 what he was hearing from his constituents, including this 19 one, and also what I understood to be the Government's 20 position. 21 Q: I understand that that's your 22 understanding of the Government's position as you've told 23 us, sir, but did you not agree that it was the clear 24 suggestion of this writer that the occupiers be 25 immediately arrested?
491 Do you not agree with that, sir? 2 A: Well, I -- it -- if that's his view, 3 that's his view. 4 Q: That's his view and he has a right to 5 his view, does he not? 6 A: Yeah, I think -- I can't speak for 7 his view. I -- 8 Q: No. 9 A: -- can only tell you how I -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's 11 interpreted -- 12 THE WITNESS: -- how I dealt with it. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- how he 14 read it. He's interpreted what his interpretation was. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: Yes. No, it -- but you agree that 18 that is his view -- 19 A: That is his view. 20 Q: It's not your view, but it's his view 21 that there should be an immediate arrest, right? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 23 THE WITNESS: His view is stated clearly 24 in his letter, yes. 25
501 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: Yes. And when Mr. Beaubien says in 3 the previous page, he' agreeing with his suggestion, Mr. 4 Beaubien is expressing the fact that that's Mr. 5 Beaubien's view ,as well. 6 Is that not your understanding? 7 A: No. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 9 Sulman...? 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, we got an 11 answer -- 12 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: He said no but -- 13 but I'm objecting if Mr. Rosenthal would just -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you would 15 just give Mr. Sulman a chance to -- 16 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- give me a little 17 space. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- make his 19 objection. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Certainly. 21 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: It's -- I'm only 22 objecting, sir, to Mr. Rosenthal misquoting a letter. He 23 can ask whatever questions he wants as long as they're 24 proper questions, but he misquoted the letter -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well --
511 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- from Mr. Beaubien 2 he -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What -- 4 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- should put it 5 properly. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He misquoted 7 the letter from Mr. Beaubien -- 8 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: That's right. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- or from 10 the constituent? 11 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: From Mr. Beaubien. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which -- 13 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: He said, Mr. 14 Rosenthal said that Mr. Beaubien said that this 15 constituent who's name is blanked out or redacted, 16 "agrees with my suggestions of yesterday". 17 It doesn't say that. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It could 19 also be said. 20 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Right. And I think 21 it's important to say -- to read the entire sentence, 22 because that changes the context entirely. 23 But, having skipped over that, it then 24 makes the suggestion that the constituent agrees with Mr. 25 Beaubien's suggestions. That isn't what the sentence
521 says. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 We'll ask you to be just a little bit more precise in the 4 question, that's all. 5 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: And -- well, I -- 6 and the precision is very important to my client -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And -- 8 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- in that it says, 9 It could be, it doesn't say it is. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 11 believe it is important. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I will ask 13 this -- I will ask Mr. Sulman's client, I didn't -- I 14 was paraphrasing but I will ask this person what he took 15 from it and see if he will follow the suggestion of Mr. 16 Sulman's counsel -- Mr. Beaubien's counsel, Mr. Sulman, 17 or read it differently. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He already said he 19 didn't know. The answer to the question was "no." So 20 he's -- he -- he answered -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 22 which question was the answer no to? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The -- the last 24 question about -- about Mr. Beaubien making the 25 suggestion. And he -- I think he said -- and he said, Do
531 you agree with that? And he said, No. And perhaps we 2 should just go over it. 3 But one (1) of the problems that I have is 4 that Mr. King can't say -- he can say what he remembers 5 Mr. Beaubien said. He can't say what Mr. Beaubien 6 intended or thought or he can't get into Mr. Beaubien's 7 head. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 9 start again then, Mr. Rosenthal. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's see if 12 we can go through this without any objections. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 15 Q: Yes, sir, I -- I certainly did not 16 intend to ask you and I didn't ask you and would never 17 ask you to get into Mr. Beaubien's head. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: I was asking what you interpreted 20 when you got these documents, and upon reflection now, if 21 you can take your mind as best you can and use the fact 22 that you are Bill King and you know how you think and 23 tell us what your interpretation would have been of this 24 document, okay, not Mr. Beaubien's, but yours? 25 A: Yes. First of all I -- I would have
541 took this as a fairly routine matter of course, a letter 2 on behalf of a constituent of which I receive many. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: With respect to this particular piece 5 of correspondence I -- I just felt that Marcel was 6 suggesting that this supported the view that it be ended 7 quickly. 8 Q: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And he's 10 already said that, by the way, Mr. Rosenthal. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, no -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Earlier he 13 have that full answer. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. Yes, but it 15 was not put to him quite this way, sir and -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 17 don't want to interrupt you. I don't want to break your 18 flow. Carry on. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: Now, Mr. King, is it not fair to say 23 though, you -- you indicated earlier that, I believe that 24 it was possible that Mr. Beaubien had advocated immediate 25 arrest.
551 Did you indicate that's possible? 2 A: I actually -- I -- I don't think it 3 is possible. 4 Q: It's not possible? 5 A: Because I think I would remember 6 that. 7 Q: I see. Well, you did -- did -- did 8 you remember that the constituent advocated immediate 9 arrest in the letter that was sent to you? 10 A: Years later once I was -- 11 Q: I see. 12 A: -- shown the -- the letter, but I -- 13 Q: Okay. Thank you. 14 A: At the time -- as I say, one (1) 15 constituent's view is -- we don't sort of turn the 16 Government around, and we get lots of these letters, is 17 what I'm saying. 18 Q: Yes, thank you. Now, one (1) of your 19 prime responsibilities, you've told us, was to pass 20 information back and forth between MPP's and the Premier. 21 Is that right? 22 A: Yes, correct. 23 Q: And particularly the Government 24 members. Particularly, but you were available to non- 25 government members as well, correct?
561 A: Most -- most of the business came 2 from government members, correct. 3 Q: And -- and government members 4 especially knew that you were the person to contact if 5 they wanted to contact the Premier? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yet you've told us you didn't pass on 8 any of Mr. Beaubien's views as expressed in his 9 conversations and faxes to you September 5 and 6? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: Did that mean you failed to do your 12 duty, or why did you not pass on that information if you 13 were the access to the Premier? 14 A: I receive and my office would have 15 received any number of representations from Caucus 16 members and MPP's and we would use our judgment on what 17 needed to be passed on and what did not need to be passed 18 on. 19 Q: And in your judgment this did not 20 need to be passed on? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And was that because you didn't 23 consider this information relevant to what the Premier 24 had to do with this issue, or what? 25 A: Well, first of all, the letter in
571 question that you're referring to was copied to the 2 Premier so he already has it. And it was copied to the 3 Solicitor General and the Attorney General and so I'm -- 4 I'm not going to create another level of paperwork. 5 Secondly, most of Marcel's contacts were 6 me -- with me, were looking for information, not giving 7 information. 8 Q: So one (1) of the reasons you didn't 9 communicate it to the Premier was because you understood 10 he would have already had a copy? 11 A: In -- with respect to this particular 12 CC of the constituent's letter, yes. 13 Q: Thank you. Now... 14 A: The same by the way with news 15 clippings. When Marcel sends me news clippings the 16 Premier's office has a very good media monitoring service 17 so -- and teams of people that follow media, so they -- 18 they'd probably be ahead of me on that anyways. 19 So I would -- I know there was a failure 20 in my part not to pass it on. I just thought I was 21 exercising good judgment. 22 Q: Now, you were asked by counsel for 23 Mr. Beaubien yesterday about the propriety of MPP 24 backbencher bringing his concerns to OPP officers and you 25 indicated he was behaving entirely appropriately.
581 Do you recall that? 2 A: I remember that I -- I wouldn't have 3 characterized it in the context of him bringing concerns 4 to the OPP. I think the question's about whether it was 5 appropriate for him to attend, find out what's going on 6 and facilitate the flow of information back and forth, 7 and I do agree with that. 8 Q: I see. Now information back and 9 forth? Or just to get information from the OPP, what's 10 your view as to the -- what's proper? 11 A: Well presumably he's getting 12 information, if he has any information germane to the 13 situation, then, like any citizen, you would pass it onto 14 the police. 15 Q: Now we have had some evidence, and 16 presumably we'll have more from Mr. Beaubien himself, 17 about some of the interchange that took place between Mr. 18 Beaubien and high ranking officers including the incident 19 commander on September 6, 1995 at 18:42, in other words 20 6:42 in the evening. A few hours before Mr. Dudley 21 George was killed. 22 Now one piece of information is that Mr. 23 Beaubien, in answer to a question from a high ranking 24 officer, indicated that the Solicitor General was meeting 25 about this issue today. Now would that be an appropriate
591 piece of information, in your view, from MPP Beaubien to 2 pass onto the incident commander and the high ranking 3 officers? 4 A: I don't have an opinion on that. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 6 minute. We have an objection. You probably want some 7 more context. 8 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: My exact objection 9 is -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 11 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- it should be set 12 up in the context -- we have a witness who hasn't been 13 here -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- and instead we - 16 - we hear the question is as if Mr. Beaubien actually 17 said this. All the evidence is, is that there are scribe 18 notes that indicate that it may have been said. Mr. 19 Beaubien -- there's no affirmation -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 21 understand. 22 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- that that's 23 actually occurred. So I think there should -- the 24 question should be asked, placed in the proper context -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
601 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- rather than 2 asserting it as if it's a fact. That's -- that's the 3 only issue. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well that is -- Mr. 5 Sulman is incorrect. There is affirmation that it 6 occurred in the testimony of John Carson and I can turn 7 him to it if necessary. 8 John Carson was asked about this in some 9 detail and he acknowledged that, implicitly, at least, 10 and explicitly, that these words were said. And of 11 course Mr. Beaubien will speak to it as well. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But, I simply asked 14 this Witness and -- it's an interesting objection from 15 Mr. Sulman. He asked him general questions about talking 16 with the OPP and got him to say it was wonderful 17 behaviour by -- by a back bencher without giving him any 18 context whatsoever and now he's complaining about my 19 context. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 21 don't want to hear any -- 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But anyway, may I 23 just -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you're 25 going to put that to him it would just be helpful to add
611 some context that's all. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, well -- well - 3 - I -- I could put as much context as you wish, sir, -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- as Mr. Sulman 6 wishes, I am trying to be expeditious as well. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know you 8 are. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 11 Q: So the context, sir, is a meeting 12 with the Incident Commander and other high ranking 13 officers on the evening of September 6th, 1995, and I'm 14 not asking you to give us any evidence as to whether or 15 not this actually occurred. 16 I'm giving -- I'm asking you to give us 17 your opinion as to whether that would be appropriate if 18 he had communicated that. 19 So -- and now the question was -- the 20 first of those several instances that I -- several 21 possible examples of communications that I wish to put to 22 you is, if he advised those high ranking officers that 23 the Solicitor General was meeting about this issue today. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well just 25 before you carry on. Yes, Mr. Millar...?
621 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The -- actually there 2 were two (2) officers there. Inspector Linton and 3 Inspector Carson so -- and Mr. Kobayashi from the MNR. 4 Those who were at -- this was the meeting at -- as My 5 Friend said at 18:42 on September 6th at the -- in the 6 command trailer. 7 But just for precision, there was Mr. 8 Kobayashi, Mr. Beaubien, Inspector Linton and Inspector 9 Carson. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 11 I'll attend -- the question -- if the question -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'll let him have 13 as much context as is desired. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: And Inspector Carson as you may know, 18 sir, was the Incident Commander. Inspector Linton was 19 another high ranking officer who sometimes was the 20 Incident Commander in the absence of Inspector Carson. 21 Okay. 22 And Mr. Kobayashi was, do you know that he 23 worked for the Ministry of Natural Resources, with 24 respect to Ipperwash Park. Okay. 25 And those people were at the meeting and
631 now, can you please tell me, when you gave those answers 2 to Mr. Sulman about appropriate behaviour, would that 3 include him advising those people at that meeting that 4 the Solicitor General was meeting today on these issues? 5 A: I don't know whether that's 6 appropriate or not; I can tell you why I don't know that. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: If one of those officers had said, 9 Marcel, is the Solicitor General meeting on this today, 10 and Marcel said, Yes, I believe he is, then I guess that 11 would be appropriate. 12 Again, to the judge's point, I don't know 13 the context of the discussion, who was asking who what, 14 how it came up, I think I've heard that we don't even 15 know if it did come up, so I just -- I -- I can't answer 16 that properly. 17 I can tell you that what would be 18 inappropriate is if a politician went in and tried to 19 direct a police officer on how to do their job, and 20 that's what I was saying earlier, as a sort of a 21 fundamental given in separation of Government and 22 policing. 23 Let me give you a little more context then 24 to that remark, because you indicate you require more 25 context and I'm happy to give you as much as you wish.
641 Evidently what happened, according to the 2 evidence we've had and the scribe notes, is that 3 Inspector Linton, one of the two (2) high-ranking 4 officers there, questioned if there was anything from the 5 -- from the Solicitor General, was there anything from 6 the Solicitor General to which Marcel Beaubien advised 7 that they were meeting today. 8 Q: So the police officer was asking 9 Marcel for information? 10 A: Yes. Was asking, is there -- and the 11 information asked for was not what you posited on the 12 meeting today, but was, if there was anything from the 13 Solicitor General. To which he responded -- 14 I think if a police officer asks you for 15 information and you know that information, then you would 16 give it to them. 17 Q: Thank you. And if -- you told us 18 about your -- one of your roles was giving advice to Mr. 19 Beaubien and other MPP's, especially new MPP's, right? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And if he had asked you about that, 22 you would have said, That's fine, right? 23 A: I would have said if a police officer 24 is asking you for information, and you know it, then you 25 should tell them what they're asking for.
651 Q: Okay now, what about Mr. Beaubien 2 conveying to that gathering, the message that, if the 3 police can't handle it, it might be necessary to bring in 4 the military. 5 Now if Mr. Beaubien had asked your advice, 6 can I say that to the -- to this gathering, you would 7 have said what, sir? 8 A: Again, I -- I think I'm lacking some 9 context about how that -- something like that would have 10 come up. You know, we came from it, I mean, members are 11 elected by their constituents and they have views. Some 12 of them are constructive, some of them are not, and it's 13 really up to their constituents, I guess, to judge. I -- 14 it's like I have no opinion on that, other than... 15 Q: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 17 if that is your answer, that is your answer. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 20 Q: That's your answer, you have no 21 opinion. Thank you. 22 Now what about him communicating to those 23 assembled at that meeting, that the premier is in 24 constant touch and that had good communications with the 25 -- with the Premier.
661 Any concerns about that, sir? 2 A: Well, he was certainly in regular 3 touch with me, who is -- was the Premier's Office -- 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: -- and representing the Premier, so 6 he'd be -- he'd be very correct in saying that. 7 Q: Yes. He was correct in saying that. 8 That's not my question though. My question is: Was it 9 appropriate for him to convey that to this meeting? 10 A: Again, it would all depend on the 11 context in which it was conveyed. 12 Q: And -- and in what way would that 13 depend on the context, sir? 14 A: If the officer said, Are you in touch 15 with the Premier, and he said, Yes I am, again -- 16 Q: And if the officers did not -- 17 A: -- that would make sense. 18 Q: If the officers did not ask that 19 question, but he just volunteered it, would that be 20 appropriate? 21 A: I don't know. It -- it would depend 22 on the context of a discussion that I wasn't privy to. 23 Q: Thank you. Now would it be 24 appropriate for Mr. Beaubien to convey to those officers 25 that he thought that the people should be out of the
671 Park? 2 A: Certainly, I think that was the 3 universal view. 4 Q: I see. And so you have no problem 5 with an MPP attending a meeting with the incident 6 commander, in the middle of the operation on Sept -- on 7 the evening of September 6th, and putting forward this 8 information to that meeting? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 10 drawing a conclusion from the whole thing. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Pardon me? 12 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I hate to keep 13 coming forward because I'd like -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no, you 15 have to come forward -- 16 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- finish his -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no. You 18 have to come forward. You got to represent Mr. 19 Beaubien's interests. 20 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well, I recognize 21 that, but the difficulty is, the question that he just 22 put was: Would there be anything wrong with Mr. Beaubien 23 saying, at that meeting, that these people have to be out 24 of the Park? 25 We don't have any evidence of that. Now,
681 I was going to bring forward the transcripts, which I 2 have in front of me which -- but that would slow things 3 down even further and I don't think any -- anything would 4 be gained by it. 5 But, Mr. Rosenthal hasn't been quoting the 6 transcripts with great accuracy. And he's not quoting 7 anywhere -- and I'm not aware of any evidence from Mr. 8 Carson or Deputy Commissioner now, Carson, that Mr. 9 Beaubien said we have to get those -- it was his opinion 10 that those people had to be out of the Park immediately, 11 that he said that on the evening of the 6:30 meeting on 12 September 6th. 13 But Mr. Rosenthal has just said that as if 14 it were a fact, then asked for a comment on it. 15 If there is evidence of that, read the 16 transcript and quote it to Mr. King. But I don't think - 17 - mind you, we have pages and pages of transcript, but 18 I'm looking at the May 31st transcript from deputy 19 Commissioner Carson and it isn't there. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it's-- 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Now -- 22 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: If he had -- it's 23 actually there, or if it's editorializing on Mr. 24 Rosenthal's part, that's one thing. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, I --
691 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: If it's actually 2 there, and it's a fact, quote it. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I shall read 4 from the transcript. But I shall first note that the 5 same counsel constantly interrupted -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- Mr. Zbogar 8 saying he shouldn't read from transcripts. 9 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Now he wants me to 11 say I should read from transcripts. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you have 13 a quote -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: In any event -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you have 16 a quote and -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I will quote from 18 the transcript on September 20th, Mr. Carson's evidence 19 at page 36. 20 "Q: Now --" 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 25 just while you're looking --
701 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry, I do have 2 the wrong date on it. Sorry. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I want to 4 let you finish, Mr. Sulman. I want to let you finish 5 what you were saying. 6 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well, it -- number 7 1, it is May 19th, the transcript, I believe, My Friend's 8 looking for. 9 Number 2. And I don't need to get into 10 this in great detail, but my objections with Mr. Zbogar 11 were not with regard to the transcripts of this Inquiry, 12 but rather examinations for discovery. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 I don't want to go on -- 15 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I don't either -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to 17 another issue. Carry on. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I do have the date 19 wrong, for which I apologize. It was maybe -- Mr. Millar 20 is trying to help me find the date, but I do have the 21 page and I do have the quote. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, while 23 you're quoting it, they'll find the date and the page. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: June 9th, or June 25 20th.
711 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You did cross- 3 examination -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh, it must be June 5 20th. I wrote September instead of June. Thank you. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 8 Q: If you could look at June 20th and 9 page 36 -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And this is 11 a transcript of Mr. -- of Deputy Commissioner Carson's 12 examination or -- 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, sir. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Page 36. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. Sorry. With 16 your indulgence. Sorry, Mr. Commissioner. I 17 inadvertently mixed up, September and June. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: So, at page 36, and now to be fair, 23 Mr. -- Inspector Carson indicated that he didn't tell 24 them any specific thing to do and so on, but he did say 25 exactly what I put to you, sir, namely he was asked, at
721 line 13: 2 "Now, sir, you certainly sensed that 3 Mr. Beaubien's position was that he 4 wanted more or less immediate action 5 taken against the occupiers; isn't that 6 correct?" 7 To which Inspector Carson -- Carson 8 answered: 9 "He thought they should be out of the 10 Park." 11 So, I asked you, sir, did -- and it goes 12 on for -- to demure about any particulars. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And, yeah -- and then it continues 17 that he -- he didn't necessarily agree immediate action, 18 but he -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, he -- but it -- 20 it goes on, line 19: 21 "Q: Yes. And you sense that he 22 wanted you to take immediate action, 23 right? 24 A: He never, ever indicated that I 25 should do anything in particular."
731 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. And I'd 2 indicated that -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 4 him to comment on that? 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: What I put to you, sir, and the 8 transcript does indicate that we have sworn evidence that 9 he did communicate that to Mr. Carson is: 10 Was it appropriate for him to communicate, 11 to that meeting, that he thought they should be out of 12 the Park? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 14 already asked that question, I'm sure. Now, it's 15 improper. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I don't 17 believe -- I believe I -- the flurry of objections 18 surrounded that, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: Was that appropriate in its context, 23 sir? 24 A: I don't know anyone who was involved 25 in this situation; politicians, bureaucrats, media,
741 citizens, even the local native band aside from the 2 natives who were in the Park who didn't share that 3 opinion. 4 Q: Yes, but sir, isn't there a problem 5 that you told us, that if an MPP speaks to police in the 6 middle of an operation, it could, to use your, not legal 7 language but that was appreciated by everybody, it would 8 probably screw up police activities. 9 Didn't you tell us that this morning, sir? 10 A: That was an entirely different 11 situation. What you're describing to me is a meeting 12 that the police were having with them. I presume the 13 police were happy to be there and -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- having a discussion. So I -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- I don't think there's anything 18 wrong with the police meeting with community leaders to 19 talk about the situation. 20 Q: And right in the middle of it, him 21 communicating he thought they should be out of the Park. 22 You don't see any problem with that, sir? 23 A: As I said, I don't know anybody who 24 disagreed with that thought. That was -- 25 Q: It's not a question of the thought,
751 sir, it's a question of communicating that to police 2 officers when they are in the middle of an operation. 3 With all the baggage that that has with respect to 4 politicians communicating with police and in the context 5 that he indicated he was in close touch with the Premier. 6 Do you have any problem with that, sir? 7 A: Yeah, I just don't accept the belief 8 characterized the question, but I -- I can't imagine 9 anybody in that room who didn't share that same opinion. 10 So if that opinion was expressed, I don't think anybody 11 would have even barely noticed. 12 Q: And you don't see this as coming 13 within the possibility that you mentioned this morning of 14 screwing up police activities? 15 A: Not even close. 16 Q: Not even close? 17 A: No. 18 Q: I see. Thank you. Now, you've told 19 us, in effect, that you understood that the Premier's 20 view was that he wanted it to end quickly because of his 21 concern for public safety. 22 Do you recall telling us that yesterday, 23 sir? 24 A: Yeah, I think that was the -- the 25 sort of the number 1 premise; the sooner it ends, the
761 better it is. 2 Q: And how did you get -- and how did 3 you get your understanding that that was the Premier's 4 view? Was it from the Premier himself? 5 A: No, I don't think I heard directly 6 from the Premier himself; that was the stated view of the 7 Government and all of the media interviews, all of the 8 communications to me. 9 Q: But we've heard a lot of evidence at 10 this Inquiry, sir, that goes way beyond, obviously, what 11 you would have known at the time. But evidently there 12 were many different views among government members, at 13 the time, as to whether to go slow, go fast and so on. 14 And you would have been aware that there 15 differences of opinion at the time, would you, sir? 16 A: I thought that -- my view was that 17 everybody shared the opinion that if it ended in the next 18 five (5) minutes, peacefully, that would be a good thing. 19 Q: Well, we've heard evidence -- 20 A: The sooner -- the sooner -- the 21 sooner the better, yes. 22 Q: We've had evidence that that was 23 indeed the Premier's view, that he wanted it to end 24 quickly within twenty-four (24) hours, there's some 25 evidence. And that was expressed according to the
771 evidence we've heard by him and by Deb Hutton 2 representing him, that they wanted a quick resolution. 3 We've also heard evidence, however, that 4 some of the other ministers, including the Attorney 5 General, was at the -- at the beginning, at least, of the 6 opinion there should be a slower approach? 7 A: If you're telling me that some 8 ministers wanted this to carry -- to not end very quickly 9 and peacefully, I don't accept that. 10 Q: Now, it -- it was a question, sir, of 11 how it would best be ended peacefully and some persons 12 felt, evidently, according to the evidence that we've 13 heard -- 14 A: You're now asking me how. Your first 15 questions were when. 16 Q: Now, sir, I'm trying to explore how 17 you might have learned the Premier's view as you 18 expressed them. Now I'm giving you some context that 19 might assist you. And I'm indicating that we've heard 20 evidence -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you 22 want -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I don't know if 24 there's an objection to what I'm doing and if there is 25 I'll yield into it, but --
781 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, the problem is 2 this. The -- we can ask a -- a witness what the witness 3 knows and why the witness knows it. It's not helpful to 4 sort of get in a -- in -- in an argument with the Witness 5 while "A" said, you say this "A" -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- but "B", "C", "D" 8 and "E" with whom we don't even if he spoke, say "X", "Y" 9 and "Z". It's -- it's -- if -- if he spoke to those 10 people and there was a connection to them, then perhaps, 11 but -- but it's not helpful sort of saying, well -- he 12 can ask him what he knew and what he did and his source 13 of his knowledge. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And the rest 15 you could connect later on. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect -- 17 with respect, Mr. Commissioner, I believe that if Mr. 18 Millar will review the transcript of the last two (2) 19 minutes, he will realize it was inappropriate for him to 20 rise, because of the following. 21 I asked this witness, Mr. Commissioner, 22 how he got the information or how he got his view that 23 the -- the Premier, because of his concern for public 24 safety, wanted it to end quick. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
791 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And he indicated 2 that was the general view. Everybody knew that, and so 3 on. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Everybody 5 wanted it to end quickly. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Everybody wanted it 7 to end quickly. And so he was giving that as the 8 explanation. Of course everybody had that view. And I 9 was therefore pointing out to him evidence that we've 10 heard that there were go slow views as well as go fast 11 views on the question of public safety. 12 And in my respectful submission it was 13 entirely appropriate to do that because then he is called 14 upon to give some other rationale for how he understood 15 that the Premier's view was he wanted it to end quickly 16 because of public safety. 17 And we have -- we haven't any evidence 18 from any other witness that that was the Premier's view. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, why doesn't he 20 ask him when he says it's everybody. He put it's 21 everybody's view, who's everybody? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or just 23 some. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm happy to do 25 that.
801 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just some. 2 I don't want to get off on this because we're going in a 3 direction that is not being constructive. 4 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: I just rise, 5 Commissioner, because I'm not sure that Mr. Rosenthal was 6 -- was entirely accurate. It's this witness in 7 responding and explaining why had made it quite clear 8 that he was referencing the government media 9 communications. 10 So to say that it was just a general 11 everybody knew this and that was it, that's not a fair 12 summary of his evidence to date and I just thought I'd 13 point out that for him. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: May I -- may I 16 approach this slightly differently and hopefully with -- 17 with dealing with some of the concerns. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 20 Q: You told us that you understood it 21 was the Premier's view that he wanted it to end quickly 22 in order to protect public safety. 23 Is that correct, sir? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you -- when did you get that
811 understanding, do you recall? Was it early on in the 2 occupation of the Park or towards the end or is that your 3 understanding now in retrospect ten (10) years later? 4 A: I guess I just felt based on 5 everything I heard from whatever source I heard it, that 6 it was a given that the sooner it peacefully ended the 7 better it would be for everybody. 8 Q: And were you, during the days of 9 September 5 and 6, aware that there was some differences 10 between some of the ministers as to whether to go slow or 11 go quickly with respect to this matter? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay, thank you. I'll move on, Mr. 14 Commissioner. Now with respect to your conversations 15 with Deb Hutton, did you only have one conversation with 16 her in the course of September 5 and 6? 17 A: On this issue, to the best of my 18 recollection and even there I'm -- I'm -- I'm pretty sure 19 but I -- I can't recall for a certainty, but I believe I 20 called her to ask about the status of the injunction. 21 Q: Now we've had evidence from a number 22 of witnesses that she told a committee meeting that the 23 Premier was "hawkish" on this issue. Did Ms. Hutton tell 24 you that the Premier was hawkish on this issue, or words 25 to that affect that is something that would be consistent
821 with that, sir? 2 A: No. 3 Q: No, I see. Now you told us that you 4 were at the beginning of or just before the meeting 5 between Premier Harris and -- and Mr. Mercredi. 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And that you observed Mr. Mercredi 8 entering a hallway, was it? 9 A: I think we met them in the hallway in 10 the Legislative Building with a whole bunch of media 11 there. 12 Q: I see. And -- 13 A: I think, we arrived they were there. 14 Q: And -- and the "we" is you and 15 Premier Harris? 16 A: Yes. There were probably other 17 people as well. Certainly there would have been 18 security. 19 Q: You, Premier Harris, some security, 20 and perhaps others? 21 A: Perhaps others. 22 Q: And you were standing right near 23 Premier Harris at the time? 24 A: I was walking with him, yes. 25 Q: Walking along with him?
831 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then you -- you both observed Mr. 3 Mercredi and some press; is that fair? 4 A: I believe so, yes. 5 Q: And then -- can you tell us what 6 happened then? You -- you -- how -- how was it arranged 7 then that there be this meeting? 8 A: Well, I think he didn't just arrive 9 like that instant. 10 Q: I'm sorry? 11 A: Mr. Mercredi didn't just arrive that 12 instant. I think when it became apparent he had arrived 13 at Queen's Park they -- they quickly decided that they 14 were going to meet and they set up a or identified a 15 board room. I think it was on the firth floor -- first 16 floor. So it was outside that board room where there 17 were. 18 I'm not even sure if Mr. Mercredi was 19 standing there or if he was already in the room. I think 20 he was there with the media. And of course the media 21 when -- when we arrived wanted to scrum the Premier. And 22 I think they said, Well, let's have the meeting first and 23 then you can scrum us all after. So they -- they went 24 into the meeting. 25 Q: And it was your understanding that
841 Premier Harris was not aware until that moment more or 2 less that this meeting was going to take place on that 3 occasion? 4 A: No. No, it -- it would have been 5 some time before that earlier in the day when he was told 6 or we were told that Chief Mercredi had arrived. 7 Q: I see. And Mr. Harris, would you 8 agree, was somewhat upset by the fact that he was to meet 9 with Mr. Mercredi under those conditions when he had 10 indicated he did not want to meet as long as the Park was 11 occupied? 12 A: I wouldn't say he was upset at all. 13 And let me qualify one (1) thing. I -- I don't know when 14 he knew that Mr. Mercredi was there or going to be there. 15 I -- I -- all I can tell you is when I knew and it was 16 sometime earlier that day when I found out. I -- I 17 wouldn't know when he was told. 18 Q: I see. It was earlier that day? 19 Earlier before you were in the hallway as you've 20 described? 21 A: Yeah. We knew as we left the Whitney 22 Block. I knew as we left the Whitney Block and he did by 23 then as well -- 24 Q: I see. 25 A: -- that we were going to meet a large
851 swarm of people when we got to -- you go through a tunnel 2 and come up on the first floor. 3 Q: Thank you. Now, if you could look, 4 please, at Tab 1, quickly. Tab 1 is Inquiry Document 5 1006195 and Exhibit P-953. 6 And as you pointed out the draft press 7 release that is included here has some underlining and 8 markings. And you indicated those were not yours. So 9 you had received as far as you recall just the clean copy 10 of this press release, correct? 11 A: As far as I recall I'm -- I'm 99.9 12 percent sure that's not my handwriting where it says a 13 name because you can actually tell the handwriting. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Whether I made underlines or not -- 16 certainly the circles refer to punctuation mistakes. 17 I've been known to do that from time to time. 18 Q: So those could be -- 19 A: But I -- I don't -- I don't recall 20 underlining it that way -- 21 Q: -- could be your circles? 22 A: It could be my circles. 23 Q: But certainly the -- the handwriting 24 at the bottom is not yours you've told us? 25 A: I don't think so, no, it doesn't look
861 like it. 2 Q: It appears to say -- maybe, "Wayne?" 3 A: Wayne Beaton (phonetic). 4 Q: Wayne Beaton. Do you know who Wayne 5 Beaton is? 6 A: Yeah, that's Marcel's assistant. 7 Q: Marcel's assistant? I see. And you 8 don't know then if that's his signature or if somebody 9 else wrote that name? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: Now, the second paragraph of this 12 reads, in part: 13 "This councillor is right. We're not 14 dealing with your decent native 15 citizen, we are dealing with thugs." 16 And you read that at the time, sir? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And given that you knew that MPP 19 Beaubien was speaking with high command officers in the 20 course of the incident, and you found that he 21 characterized the people there as "thugs," did that not 22 give you some concern that suggested you might advise him 23 in his communications with the police? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: This objection is
871 this: Given that you knew that Beaubien -- Mr. Beaubien 2 -- was talking to high -- high-ranking or senior 3 officers, didn't this give you some concern? 4 We've -- Mr. -- Mr. Rosenthal asked about 5 this -- the only evidence that we have of high-ranking 6 officers is the -- the -- Mr. Beaubien referred to -- I 7 mean Mr. Rosenthal spoke about Mr. Beaubien's meeting 8 with Inspector Carson and Inspector Linton on the evening 9 of September the 6th. 10 This document came in on September the 11 5th. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I don't 13 understand the nature of the objection. I'm -- 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: You -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: May I -- may I 18 rephrase it though, and I think -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The timing 20 is important Mr. Rosenthal -- 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- it will 22 accommodate you. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: You've told us that you were aware
881 that Mr. Beaubien was speaking to officers in the command 2 centre; you didn't know exactly who, obviously, but you 3 assumed they were high ranking officers in the command 4 centre. 5 Is that fair? 6 A: Well, I see what -- let me answer the 7 question. 8 Q: Well, you can see where I'm going, 9 but could you -- 10 A: I do. 11 Q: -- answer that question first, sir? 12 A: Some days later I was aware. 13 Q: You said -- 14 A: I think this was the first 15 communication I received from Marcel on the subject. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: So at that point, I was not aware, if 18 that's what you're asking. 19 Q: At that point you weren't aware, yes. 20 But when you became aware that he was -- you told us you 21 were aware he was speaking to the officers and then I 22 took you through a number of comments he's alleged to 23 have made to the officers and asked your opinion about 24 them. 25 A: Right.
891 Q: And I'd asked you whether you would, 2 in your role as advisor to MPP's especially new ones, 3 advised him not to and you didn't have any problem with 4 those except you might want more context. 5 And now I'm suggesting to you further 6 context is that you had, from September 5th the knowledge 7 that Mr. Beaubien had characterized these people as 8 thugs. 9 And now I'm asking you, sir, given that, 10 in addition to the other information would that have, in 11 retrospect and nobody's perfect, sir, but in retrospect, 12 wouldn't it have been reasonable for you to caution Mr. 13 Beaubien, given all that I've pointed to against doing 14 anything other than obtaining information from the 15 police? 16 A: Well, I just don't accept the premise 17 of that. Once this news release, we discussed it and he 18 agreed that it wasn't appropriate to send it out, then in 19 my view whatever is in it, doesn't exist any more. 20 Q: I see. And the knowledge that Mr. 21 Beaubien had characterized these people as thugs you 22 wiped from your mind at the same time as you agreed that 23 the press won't be informed of that? 24 A: Yeah, it just wasn't part of the 25 decision making once it didn't exist any more.
901 Q: Thank you, Mr. King, thank you Mr. 2 Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Rosenthal. 5 I'm not sure who's left. Mr. George, did 6 you have some questions? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Ross, I think, is 8 next. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Who does? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Ross is next. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 12 sorry. Mr. Ross, I'm sorry, how could I forget Mr. Ross? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think that -- and 14 Mr. Ross, as I understand it, is the last person. Mr. 15 Horner indicated last evening that the questions that he 16 had intended to ask had been covered. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...? 18 This is the last examiner, Mr. King. 19 THE WITNESS: Thanks. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 24 Q: Good morning, Mr. King. 25 A: Good morning.
911 Q: My name is Anthony Ross and I 2 represent the residents of Aazhoodena. 3 Now, I take it, sir, that having been 4 involved with Premier Harris and his party from 1981, 5 that you were partly responsible for the architecture of 6 the Common Sense Revolution document? 7 A: I would have had some input, yes. 8 Q: Yeah. So -- and I take it, sir, that 9 the document, when it was issued, would have been largely 10 representative of your views as well as the general views 11 of the party, to the best of your knowledge? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yeah. And I take it, sir, that one 14 (1) of the principle planks in that party document was 15 law and order? 16 A: It was certainly one (1) of the 17 planks, yes. 18 Q: Yes. And as far as law and order was 19 concerned, it would really intend to embrace the correct 20 law of the province of Ontario and the correct law of 21 Canada? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I take it, sir, that you would 24 have ensured that there was some level of research into 25 what constituted the proper law of Ontario and the proper
921 law of Canada with respect to First Nations? 2 A: I'm not sure that -- if you're asking 3 whether that was my personal responsibility. I wasn't 4 too involved in that part of the -- the program. 5 I was more involved in the writing and 6 communicating of it. 7 Q: Yes. But as far as the 8 communicating, the message that you wanted to send out 9 was that it was the full and complete law of the Province 10 of Ontario and Canada, including any special provisions 11 for First Nations? 12 A: I didn't quite follow your question. 13 Hopefully the -- the -- the policies would all comply 14 with the laws, is that what you're asking? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: I would agree with -- that they 17 should, yeah. 18 Q: Yeah. And I take it, sir, that in 19 retrospect as we sit here now, you would subscribe to the 20 view that what happened in September 1995 could only be 21 classified as tragic? 22 A: Absolutely. 23 Q: And I take it, sir, that this is 24 something that you would not like to see repeated under 25 any circumstances?
931 A: No. 2 Q: And in that regard you're here and 3 you're willing to assist this Commission by giving the 4 frankest evidence that you can recognizing: 5 a) It's not a criminal trial 6 b) There's no civil liability and there's 7 an effort to make sure that something like this never 8 happens again. 9 A: Yes, I agree with that. 10 Q: And then, sir, you were -- I -- I 11 take it that the -- that the attitude of the -- the 12 government of the day, as you understand it, was partly 13 driven by a belief that the -- the occupancy of the Park 14 was illegal? 15 A: Correct, illegal. 16 Q: Yes. Illegal. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that the occupiers were in 19 trespass? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Yeah. Now I take it, sir, that you 22 were aware that a number of people who had occupied the 23 Park were ultimately charged a number of criminal 24 charges? 25 A: Actually I'm not too sure of the
941 extent of my knowledge about that. Do -- if you mean 2 after the fact, I really don't know about that very much. 3 Q: So you weren't aware that there were 4 charges laid against many of the people who were the 5 occupiers? 6 A: Not in any detail. I -- I think if 7 you asked was I -- would I -- I presume some people were 8 charged but I really don't. 9 Q: I see. 10 A: I -- I know that the police officer 11 was charged. And -- and that was well covered in the 12 press. 13 Q: I see. But as far as the other 14 individuals who were charged -- I -- I ask -- I invite 15 you to just reflect on it for a minute. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: I -- I understand that in excess of a 18 dozen of the First Nations people were charged. Is this 19 consistent with your recollection? 20 A: I just didn't -- I don't know that. 21 Q: I see. 22 A: I -- I -- my recollection would have 23 been and my expectation would have been that some people 24 were charged. How that unfolded, I just don't know. 25 Q: So you were not aware then that
951 people were charged and there was a clear signal from the 2 court that if the people are brought before the court and 3 they raised colour of right as a defence, that they'd 4 probably be acquitted. 5 You weren't aware of that? 6 A: No. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I suppose 8 that's going to shorten your examination? 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Oh, absolutely. As a 10 matter of fact it has almost run me in reverse. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. King, thank you 15 there are no more questions. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't mean 17 to cut you off, Mr. Ross. Thank you. 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I 19 would let you cut me off, but Mr. King did. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No but I 21 mean I don't want you to think I was rushing you. Thank 22 you very much. Thank you. 23 Yes, Ms. Ferrier. Do you have any 24 re-examination? 25 MS. MEGAN FERRIER: Just one (1) brief
961 matter of housekeeping, Commissioner. 2 3 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. MEGAN FERRIER: 4 Q: Yesterday I asked Mr. King about the 5 members of the Premier's staff and he identified David 6 Lindsey, Mitch Patten, Deb Hutton, Guy Giorno and Paul 7 Rhodes. And I understand that Scott Minich (phonetic) 8 was also a member of the Premier's staff. 9 Is that correct? 10 A: Yeah. I forgot to mention Scotty. 11 Q: And what was his role? 12 A: He was -- I don't -- I can't remember 13 his title. He was in charge of scheduling and touring, 14 that type of thing. Public appearances, yeah. 15 Q: And Mr. King, one (1) of the things 16 that we've asked most of the witnesses who have attended 17 is whether you have any recommendations that you would 18 like to make to the Commissioner for his consideration 19 with respect to fulfilling his mandate. 20 And I didn't ask you that yesterday. 21 A: I -- thank you. I've thought long 22 and hard about it and I -- I don't think I have a 23 specific recommendation to make. 24 I have an observation, hopefully a brief 25 one, that one (1) of the things that has disturbed me
971 over the last many years is that in -- and I guess what I 2 like about the Commissioner is -- is that we now have a 3 chance to sort of establish the truth and the facts of 4 what's been going on. 5 And I've been very personally dismayed at 6 what I feel is media and political sensationalism and 7 allegations and unfounded things that have been just 8 thrown out there without people having a chance to speak 9 to it. 10 So, I'm -- in that sense, I'm glad that 11 the -- this forum exists for people to do that. And I 12 think that will truly be the, for those who concerned 13 about the death of Dudley George and the impact on the 14 family, that ultimately will serve true justice and 15 honour his memory by getting to the bottom of it. 16 I know what it's like to lose a family 17 member. My own father passed away a few years ago and 18 one (1) of my regrets is that there -- even when he died, 19 there was still a cloud of things being said about me 20 that he will never get a chance to see, ultimately, how 21 things come out. 22 So I have a lot of sympathy for the family 23 and I hope that -- and I know that this Commission will 24 get past some of the headlines and some of the things 25 that are thrown around in the legislature by people for
981 other reasons and other agendas. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much, Mr. King. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 MS. MEGAN FERRIER: Yeah, and finally we 6 would just like to thank you very much for attending 7 yesterday and today. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much for coming -- 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and 12 giving us your evidence. 13 14 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 17 Millar...? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, that's 19 the -- Mr. King is our last witness for this week. We -- 20 on Monday we will have Mr. Bangs in the morning. He's 21 got to finish and then after Mr. Bangs, I believe he 22 should be done in the morning, we will then start with -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can we do 24 a -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Ms. Hutton.
991 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- quick run 2 of what Mr. Bangs, what we have left with respect to Mr. 3 Bangs or -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think we have it on 5 the transcript, but if you want to do it again -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are the 7 people here and can we get an idea? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It might -- yes, I 9 think the -- I think we have it on the transcript. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, shall 11 we rely on that? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because I 14 was hoping there might be some adjustments or changes or 15 we could get an up to date assessment or shall we just 16 rely on that? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think we should -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'll 19 take your advice. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. And I'd 21 like to thank Mr. King as well, for attending -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- at the Commission. 25
1001 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We are now 4 adjourned and we're back on Monday at 10:30. Thank you 5 all very much. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 7 adjourned until Monday, November 21st at 10:30 a.m. 8 9 --- Upon adjourning at 10:34 p.m. 10 11 12 13 14 15 Certified Correct, 16 17 18 19 20 _________________ 21 Wendy Warnock 22 23 24 25