11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 10th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 18 (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) (np) 25 Sue Freeborn )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) (np) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 GLEN BRESSETTE; Resumed 6 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 7 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Mark Sandler 14 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 34 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 84 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Douglas Sulman 86 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 94 12 13 DALE TIMOTHY GEORGE-PLAIN, Sworn 14 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 100 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 148 16 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 167 17 18 19 Certificate of Transcript 169 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 4 P-82 CD-ROM of photographs that were 71 5 viewed by Glen Bressette on 6 November 10, 2004 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:04 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 4 Public Inquiry is now in session, the Honourable Mr. 5 Justice Linden presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have a little 11 trouble with this mic, I'm either too close or too far 12 away or too loud. We're going to continue this morning 13 with the cross-examination of Mr. Bressette and I've 14 been advised that the Dudley George Estate and Family 15 Group have no questions and so that the next person 16 would be the Aazhoodena and George Family Group. Ms. 17 Esmonde. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 19 Esmonde. Thank you. 20 21 GLEN BRESSETTE; Resumed 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 24 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette. 25 A: Good morning.
81 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde, I'm one 2 (1) of the lawyers representing Aazhoodena and the 3 George Family Group. Yesterday you described an 4 incident that you witnessed between Gerald George and 5 Stewart George. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And as I understood your evidence, 8 you observed Gerald George approach the intersection; 9 there was a brief verbal exchange with Stewart George? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Stewart George hit Gerald George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Gerald George drove a little ways 14 and then yelled something back? 15 A: Almost like driving off, yelling 16 something back. 17 Q: I see. And then Stewart George 18 threw a rock? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And no one else was involved in that 21 incident from what you observed? 22 A: No one else. 23 Q: And you understood that the conflict 24 had something to do with something that Gerald George 25 had written?
91 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that he had written something 3 negative about the people in the Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you remember how many people were 6 in that intersection at the time that incident occurred? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Do you recall if anyone was carrying 9 any sticks or bats or clubs or any other such items? 10 A: I can't recall. 11 Q: Do you recall if you were carrying 12 any such item? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No? No, you weren't or you can't 15 recall? 16 A: I can't recall. 17 Q: Okay. Now, I expect that we will 18 hear evidence in this Inquiry that shortly after this 19 event took place there were reports over police 20 communications that ten (10) natives with baseball bats 21 near the road had apparently damaged a private vehicle. 22 Did you observe anything like that? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And if that is actually in reference 25 to what occurred with Gerald George, you would agree with
101 me that that would not be an accurate description? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Similarly, if we hear evidence, as I 4 anticipate we will, that the OPP were concerned about a 5 civilian motorist having his vehicle pelted with rocks 6 and hit with baseball bats, you would agree with me 7 that's not an accurate description of what you observed? 8 A: It's not accurate. 9 Q: And similarly, if we hear evidence 10 that the OPP were concerned by a report that a car was 11 trashed by twelve (12) natives with baseball bats, you 12 would agree with me that's not an accurate description of 13 what you observed? 14 A: That's not accurate. 15 Q: And the car that was -- that Gerald 16 George was driving, there were no other passengers in 17 that car? 18 A: No. 19 Q: You were asked yesterday about a 20 discussion -- sorry, about another car that approached 21 the intersection around the same time? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: That your group believed was an 24 undercover officer? 25 A: Yes.
111 Q: And I believe you said yesterday that 2 that -- that person approached the intersection after the 3 incident with Gerald George. Is that right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is it possible that it was before? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And when this person 8 approached the intersection, Stewart George told him to 9 leave? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do you recall at that time 12 whether there was anyone carrying sticks or bats or any 13 other such items? 14 A: I can't recall. 15 Q: Was anyone acting in a threatening 16 manner towards the driver? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you see where the driver went 19 after he left that intersection? 20 A: Up to the next checkpoint on Army 21 Camp. 22 Q: And what did he do there? 23 A: He stopped and was talking to those 24 police at the checkpoint. 25 Q: And do you know how long he was
121 there? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Now, you also described people 4 picking up shell casings after the -- the shooting 5 occurred later on September 6th and you -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- you were there when that was 8 taking place? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Was it still dark at that time? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you -- do you know how many shell 13 casings were found? 14 A: Twenty-nine (29). 15 Q: So, someone actually counted them and 16 there were -- there were twenty-nine (29)? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did you count them? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Do -- do you know who counted them? 21 A: It was probably Glenn George, since 22 he had a little bag. 23 Q: Okay. And was it Glenn George who 24 told you there were twenty-nine (29)? 25 A: Yes. He told the group of us.
131 Q: Do you know if anyone who took part 2 in that search located an abandoned gun? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No one did? 5 A: No one did. 6 Q: Okay. And when you saw Mr. Dudley 7 George laying on the ground, did you observe anything 8 laying on the ground around him? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Now when the police arrived that 11 night, did you have any belief about what they were there 12 to do? 13 A: Cause some serious trouble. 14 Q: What do you mean by that? 15 A: Use tear gas or beat us up. 16 Q: Did you have any belief about what 17 their goal was in doing that? 18 A: Just to try and hurt us. 19 Q: Did you have any sense, during the 20 confrontation that happened, of what the police wanted 21 your group to do? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. Thank you very much. Those 24 are my questions. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
141 very much. I'm not sure who's next. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Mr. Eylofson. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: For Legal Services of 5 Toronto, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 7 MR BRIAN EYLOFSON: Good morning, Mr. 8 Commissioner. I don't have any questions this morning. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 10 Mr. Eyolfson. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now, Mr. Sandler on 12 behalf of the Ontario Provincial Police, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Sandler. 14 We're moving right along here. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 17 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette. My 18 name's Mark Sandler and I act for the OPP. 19 A: Hello. 20 Q: And I have a few questions for you. 21 A: All right. 22 Q: Okay? And if this looks a little 23 awkward up here, I haven't transcribed my notes onto a 24 piece of paper, so I'm looking at a computer screen. 25 I want to ask you a little bit about this
151 encounter with what you described as the spiffy looking 2 individual. Remember that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I expect that this spiffy looking 5 individual, we'll later hear was Detective Sergeant Mike 6 Wright (phonetic) of the OPP, okay? I just tell you 7 that, you didn't know him at the time, I take it. 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: And what is clear is that he comes to 10 the intersection, am I right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: He's driving a vehicle, right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: He's not in uniform, am I right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And he wanted to talk to the group, 17 right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And he indicated that, that he wanted 20 to talk to the group, am I right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And -- and in fairness, he wasn't 23 threatened and no rocks were thrown at him, I -- I agree 24 with you -- 25 A: Yes.
161 Q: -- in that respect, All right. But 2 what was clear, I'm going to suggest, is that nobody 3 within the group including Stuart George, had any 4 interest in speaking to him. Am I right? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Okay. And, on the contrary, he was 7 told to get the fuck out of here, right? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And I'm going to also suggest to you 10 and I'm going to ask you to kind of think back a little 11 back a little bit, but somebody also said to him, this 12 battle's not yours. 13 Does that accord with your recollection? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. Do you remember one way 16 or the other whether someone said that? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: Okay, fair enough. Now, we've 19 actually heard from Clayton George, or Kokomo Joe as -- 20 as I gather he's also known as and -- and he also 21 testified that he was present during this event, and does 22 that assist you in whether he was present during this 23 encounter with the spiffy looking man, I'll call him 24 that. 25 A: I can't remember him there.
171 Q: All right. So you can't remember one 2 way or the other, I take it? You're just not sure 3 whether he was there or not? 4 A: I'm not sure he was there. 5 Q: Fair enough. And I asked him at Page 6 92 when he testified here, Page 92. This would have been 7 the date of my cross-examination which would have been 8 Monday. 9 And I asked him these questions, and I 10 just thought I'd let you -- let you hear what I asked him 11 and what his answers were and I'll ask a couple of things 12 arising out of that, okay? This is Page 92. 13 "Q: Now I'm going to ask you about 14 the events on the evening of September 15 the 6th. 16 So that's the Wednesday September the 17 6th, the day of the confrontation, All 18 right? And again I expect that there's 19 going to be some evidence that at about 20 7:30 that evening a group of occupiers 21 were standing at the intersection of 22 Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive 23 and four (4) or five (5) had what 24 appeared to be axe handles in their 25 hands or sticks and bats and an
181 individual was told, Get out of the 2 area, this wasn't his fight. 3 First of all, were you one (1) of those 4 Occupiers? 5 A: Out on the road? 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You were? And what did you have in 9 your hands? 10 A: Just a stick." 11 Now, first of all, I'm going to suggest to 12 you that regardless of the precise numbers, we can say 13 some things for certainty about -- about this. The first 14 is, that there was a group of you generally in -- at the 15 intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive. 16 Am I right so far? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you've indicated that you can't 19 say precisely how many there were, but there were a 20 number, right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what I'm going to suggest to you 23 is that even though you don't have a specific 24 recollection of whether you were carrying a stick or a 25 club or whether the others were carrying a stick or a
191 club, we know that on occasions that day, some of the 2 occupiers were outside of the fenced in area of the Park 3 and were carrying those kinds of items. Am I right? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: Okay. And so if Kokomo Joe were to 6 recollect, as he did, that -- that he was carrying a 7 stick, you're not in a position to disagree with it, you 8 just can't have a specific recollection one (1) way or 9 the other? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. So, it may well be, and I 12 don't want to put it any higher than that in fairness to 13 you -- it may well be that there were a group of you out 14 at that intersection and that some of you, in the way 15 that I questioned Kokomo Joe, were armed with either axe 16 handles or sticks or bats. Is that fair? 17 A: That's fair. 18 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Now -- excuse me 19 for a moment. Now, after that encounter, for want of a 20 better word, with the spiffy looking gentleman, there 21 were no vehicles coming to the intersection after that. 22 Am I right? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And -- and as well, the checkpoint 25 that the police had had at that intersection had already
201 been removed. Am I right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And -- and is it fair to say that the 4 removal of that checkpoint right at that intersection 5 reduced the likelihood that there'd be a physical 6 confrontation between occupiers who were at the 7 intersection, possibly with sticks, and the police? 8 A: I don't know what to say about that. 9 Q: All right. Maybe I'll put it another 10 way. What I'm suggesting is that, if the checkpoint had 11 remained right at that intersection and there were 12 occupiers right at that intersection with sticks or bats, 13 one can see that a -- that a confrontation may have 14 occurred earlier in the day than the one that later did. 15 Isn't that fair? If you don't feel you 16 can say, that's fine. 17 A: No, I don't think I can say. 18 Q: Okay. Now, when Stewart or Worm 19 George punched Gerald George, we've heard some evidence 20 that -- that Stewart had been drinking and -- and 21 appeared intoxicated. Do you remember that? 22 A: No, I don't. 23 Q: All right, can you say one (1) way or 24 the other whether he was intoxicated? 25 A: I don't know if he was intoxicated.
211 Q: Okay. And we've heard some evidence 2 as well that when Judas George smashed the police cruiser 3 window -- and you remember that event of -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- September the 4th? We've heard 6 some evidence that -- that he had been drinking or was 7 intoxicated at that time, although as I understood your 8 evidence yesterday, you couldn't confirm that. All you 9 could say is that -- that he appeared to be in a bad 10 mood. Am I right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: We do know for sure that -- that 13 there was some consumption of alcohol within the Park. 14 You acknowledged that -- that you and Dudley George had 15 something to drink and there were two (2) girls that had 16 something to drink and so on. Am I right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And other than Dudley George telling 19 those two (2) girls that they shouldn't drink, I'm going 20 to suggest that there was no direction given by anybody 21 to the occupiers that no alcohol was to be consumed 22 within the Park. Am I right? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: Okay. Now, I'm going to move ahead 25 to the actual confrontation with -- with the police and -
221 - and you've been very thorough in -- in describing those 2 events, so I only have a very few questions for you, 3 okay? 4 You indicated yesterday that when Cecil 5 Bernard George left the fenced in Park, with the wooden 6 club up and -- and shouting, Come on then, you bunch of 7 assholes, I'll take you on -- now stopping there for a 8 moment, I've got that right so far? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: Okay. That's when people in the Park 11 crossed the fence into the sandy parking lot area to 12 assist Cecil Bernard; am I right? 13 A: No, it was after the cops grabbed 14 him. 15 Q: Okay, fair enough. What I'm 16 suggesting to you is that it was after Cecil Bernard 17 George charged forward that the people in the Park 18 crossed the fence into the sandy parking lot area to 19 assist Cecil Bernard. 20 That's what prompted that movement, wasn't 21 it? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 23 Scullion. 24 THE WITNESS: Well they grabbed him first 25 and pulled him into their crowd and then --
231 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you want 2 to -- 3 THE WITNESS: -- people kept on beating 4 him up. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you want 6 to make your objection, Mr. Scullion, or do you want to 7 let the witness answer 8 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Oh, that's fine. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 11 Q: Okay, so -- that's fine and I'm 12 content with that. And it was at that point that the 13 fight with the police began, right? 14 A: The police grabbed him first -- 15 Q: Right. 16 A: -- pulled him behind them, then you 17 could see them beating him up. Then that's when the 18 people in the Park started to come out to help him. 19 Q: Right. And it was at that point that 20 the physical fight with the police began, right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Because up until that point in time, 23 I mean, the police had come up to the fence and people 24 were screaming at them and things were being thrown at 25 them, but there was no physical altercation between the
241 police and the occupiers. Am I right? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 3 minute. Mr. Scullion has an objection. I want to give 4 you chance to say it before the witness says anything. 5 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Well, I'm objecting 6 because he's not classifying Cecil Bernard George, who's 7 been grabbed and pulled into the crowd of officers, as an 8 occupier. 9 The separation between the people who 10 haven't been pulled into the police ranks and Mr. George, 11 I don't think is fair to this witness by saying well 12 nothing happening, there's no physical confrontation. 13 He's clearly said that there was. 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: I think it's clear, 15 but I'll -- I'll clarify it. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 18 Q: And leaving aside the confrontation 19 with Cecil Bernard George, what I -- what I'm simply 20 indicating to you, and I believe that you've agreed with 21 me, is that there was no physical altercation between the 22 police and the other occupiers, let's leave aside Cecil 23 Bernard George, within the Park until after Cecil Bernard 24 George had had his own physical confrontation with the 25 police and then the occupiers left the fenced in area and
251 the physical confrontation began. Am I right? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And immediately 4 before Cecil Bernard George left the fenced in area of 5 the Park, so I want to take a snapshot just before he 6 left, all right? The police were not moving forward at 7 that point. 8 They had already stopped and they had 9 backed right up once all the occupiers were back within 10 the fenced in Park, am I right? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: Okay. So, until Cecil Bernard George 13 charged outside of the Park, the police formation had 14 been successful in keeping the occupiers within the Park, 15 am I right? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: Okay. Kokomo Joe told us that the 18 police didn't touch the occupiers as long as they 19 remained behind the fence line, and that's true, isn't 20 it? You've just said as much. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Now, I'm going to skip forward a 23 moment. We heard some evidence yesterday from you that 24 you jumped back because a car came out of the Park after 25 the bus, am I right as to that?
261 A: Yes. 2 Q: And Warren George was driving the 3 car, am I right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you didn't know who was driving 6 the bus at that time, but you learned later that it was 7 Nicholas Cottrelle, am I right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you made reference to another 10 person who you learned had been in the bus with him and 11 what was that name again? 12 Q: I didn't mention the other person's 13 name yesterday. 14 Q: Oh, who was the other person? 15 A: I don't know. 16 Q: Oh, perhaps I had misheard you. I -- 17 had you not indicated that you had received some 18 information that there had been another person in the 19 bus? 20 A: I just received information who drove 21 the bus. 22 Q: I see, okay. Fair enough. And you 23 said that the car was going pretty fast and you ran after 24 it, am I right? 25 A: Yeah, I went right out after it.
271 Q: Okay. And the reason you ran after 2 it, as opposed to walked, is -- is to keep up with the 3 car -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- am I right? 6 A: Keep up with the other guys who went 7 out. 8 Q: Okay. Now, when Cecil Bernard George 9 first came into contact with the police, as I understand 10 your evidence, there were too many people in the way at 11 that time to see him either being assaulted or him 12 engaging the police. Do I have that right? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. I'm just going to read to 15 you one (1) little portion from your SIU statement, if I 16 may. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'd better 18 repeat that last statement that you made, Mr. Sandler. 19 It won't get on the record. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 22 Q: Yes, I'm just going to take you to 23 your SIU statement. Do you -- do you have that there 24 with you, sir? 25 A: All right, let's see.
281 Q: Mr. Bressette, it's at Tab 1 of that 2 book. 3 A: There. 4 Q: And I'm -- I'm looking, Mr. 5 Bressette, at Page 2 of this statement that was provided 6 to the SIU. All right? 7 A: All right. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This was the 9 10th -- 10 MR. MARK SANDLER: Right. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- of 12 September, 1997? 13 MR. MARK SANDLER: Correct. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 MR. MARK SANDLER: The date of the 16 statement is September the 10th of 1997 and it was an 17 interview with Mr. Muir and Mr. Kennedy. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you got 19 it in front of you, Mr. Bressette? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, where are you at on 21 it? 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm at Page 2. 23 THE WITNESS: I'm on 2. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER:
291 Q: Okay, and -- and I'm just reading 2 from about eight (8) lines down where Glen says -- and 3 that's you: 4 "He was running out with the club and 5 then those cops grabbed his arm and 6 then just circled him -- a group there 7 -- and dragged him out the back. 8 Kennedy: Okay. Where they circled 9 him and took custody of him, could you 10 put S2?" 11 And I'll just stop there. The SIU was 12 doing the same thing with you as Mr. Millar did with you 13 yesterday, asking you to mark locations on a little map. 14 Am I right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Thank you. 17 "Now, that area -- that area, did you 18 see him get assaulted at that time, 19 too?" 20 And then, you say: 21 "No, I didn't see him get 22 assaulted there, there was too many 23 people in the way. 24 Kennedy: This is a few feet in front 25 of the turnstile.
301 Glen: Hmm hmm. 2 Kennedy: They grabbed him there and 3 took him back to East Parkway Drive. 4 Glen: And that's where I seen him -- 5 seen them beating on him." 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 7 Scullion? 8 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If I may? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 10 Scullion? 11 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes, go ahead. 12 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you. I'm 13 reading the same passage and, to be fair to the witness, 14 there's a separation between that area that he's now 15 marked as S2 and they're referring to as that -- that 16 area, pointing to a map. 17 The witness doesn't have the map in front 18 of him that he had in front of him with the SIU and it's 19 not -- it's not clear what area is being pointed to in 20 this statement. And just to be fair to the witness, he 21 should be entitled to have the -- the map in front of him 22 that he had in front of him for the SIU discussion. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 24 Yes, Mr. Millar, perhaps -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, the map is at
311 the end of -- Mr. Bressette, if you go to the end of the 2 statement, at the very end, you will find the map and you 3 will see on the map, S2. 4 THE WITNESS: S2. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, and it's -- if 6 you look at the exhibit behind you, I think it's Exhibit 7 81, they appear to be in the same spot where you marked 8 the -- the two (2) people. 9 MR. MARK SANDLER: With great respect, 10 I've just read the passage to him. I haven't asked him a 11 question yet and my Friend gets up to object to my 12 question. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, all 14 right. He's now seen the map and it's roughly the same 15 as 2. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 18 Q: Yes. First of all, I'm going to 19 suggest that what you said to the SIU accurately 20 reflected your recollection of the events. Am I right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yes. And all I'm suggesting to you 23 is, that -- that when you described what you've 24 characterized as an assault or a beating on the part of 25 the police, that was an observation that you made in the
321 area of the van and not initially in the confrontation 2 that Mr. George had with the police. 3 Isn't that quite accurate? 4 A: Well, there was two (2) areas -- up 5 by the fence and then over by the van. 6 Q: Right. And what I'm going to suggest 7 to you is that what you were telling the SIU was that, 8 here Cecil Bernard George charges the police officers, 9 the police officers pull him behind in the ranks. 10 There's too many people to see the 11 interaction between Cecil Bernard George and the police 12 at that time and you -- you pick up the events again once 13 you see him in the vicinity of the van. Isn't that fair? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Good. And when you saw him in the 16 vicinity of the van, he was still resisting arrest, you 17 could see that he was giving them a rough time while he 18 was on the ground; is that accurate? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. Now, I'm going to switch 21 topics, if I may, and just ask you about something that 22 you said yesterday. You were talking about a club, or 23 clubs, that were being fashioned, and you said something 24 about being made from chopped down small sturdy trees. 25 Do you remember giving that evidence
331 yesterday? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So -- so when you're describing a 4 club as being made from a chopped down or small sturdy 5 tree, that's different than -- than a tree branch, per 6 se; am I right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Was there activity in the Park on 9 September the 6th where small sturdy trees were being 10 chopped down and fashioned into clubs? 11 A: Somebody was making them, -- 12 Q: Somebody -- 13 A: -- I don't know who it was but I got 14 given one. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you. Those are all the 16 questions I have, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 18 Mr. Sandler. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, it's Mr. 20 Roland next. But I wonder if we could have five (5) 21 minutes to solve a technical problem, because Mr. Roland 22 has asked me to throw up some photographs on the -- the 23 screen, and as luck would have it, the computer is not 24 cooperating and I may have to borrow Ms. Newell's 25 computer. So we will need to set it up.
341 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Take a few 4 minutes. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We will just take five 6 (5) minutes, Mr. Bressette, I'm sorry. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just call us 8 when you're ready. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 10 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 11 Inquiry will recess for five (5) minutes. 12 13 --- Upon recessing at 9:30 a.m. 14 --- Upon resuming at 9:35 a.m. 15 16 THE REGISTRAR: Order. All rise please. 17 This Inquiry is now resumed. Please be seated. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 19 morning, Mr. Roland. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: Good morning, Mr. 21 Commissioner. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: Mr. Bressette, my name is Ian Roland, 25 I act for the Ontario Provincial Police Association. I
351 have some questions for you this morning. 2 Let me ask you a few questions first about 3 your life at Kettle Point before you moved into the Base, 4 at the end of August '95. And just a couple of questions 5 about your relations at Kettle Point. 6 Are you related or Richard or Dick 7 Bressette? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Is he an Elder at Kettle Point? 10 A: Dick Bressette is a Elder of Kettle 11 Point. 12 Q: Yes. But no relation to you? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. And let me just understand, 15 then, your connection to Stoney Point. We heard from you 16 that your paternal grandparents were Kettle Point 17 residents? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that your maternal grandmother 20 was a Kettle Point resident? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And it was your maternal grandfather 23 that was originally a Stoney Point resident? 24 A: Reginald George? 25 Q: Yes.
361 A: Yes. 2 Q: And he -- he was moved off the Stoney 3 Point Reserve in 1942? 4 A: I think it was '42, -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- I said yesterday. 7 Q: How old was he at the time, do you 8 know, approximately? Was he a -- 9 A: Twenty (20). 10 Q: All right. And so as I understand 11 it, your historical connection through your grandparents 12 to Stoney Point is -- is really just through your 13 maternal grandfather, your other grandparents were Kettle 14 Point residents? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And your mother, Carolyn 17 George, through, I take it, her father, saw and sees 18 herself as a Stoney Point -- connected to Stoney Point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You've told us that your mother moved 21 into the Army Camp in 1993? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No? Sorry. She wasn't there part- 24 time? Or was she there at all? 25 A: She was part-time, coming down to
371 visit. 2 Q: I see, but she didn't live there in 3 '93. 4 A: She didn't live there. 5 Q: All right. But she did move into the 6 Army barracks shortly after their occupation that 7 occurred July 29, '95? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did she move in from Kettle 10 Point? Was she then living in Kettle Point? 11 A: Yes, in Kettle Point. 12 Q: Yes. And you were living with her in 13 Kettle Point -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- at the time? All right. And you 16 were working in Kettle Point, were you? 17 A: I was working in Forest. 18 Q: In Forest? All right. And did you 19 help her move her affairs into the Army barracks? 20 A: I helped load up the car and then she 21 drove up with a car load of things. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: So I helped her move up there. 24 Q: Did you? And did you help her move 25 into Building 116?
381 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did she invite you to join her at 3 that time? 4 A: She said I could, but I just wanted 5 to stay back and hang out at the house. 6 Q: All right. Do you know how your 7 mother came to select or be assigned to building 116? 8 A: Her, Pierre and Dudley all wanted to 9 -- to live next to each other. 10 Q: I see. And you've told us that she 11 was in 116 and it was actually a trailer. I call it a 12 building but it was actually a trailer. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And Dudley, you've told us, was in 15 115 and was Pierre in 117? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Where was he? 18 A: At the fire hall. 19 Q: And that's nearby. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And so you decided not to 22 join your mother at that stage at the Army barracks, you 23 stayed in Kettle Point? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yes. And I take it you knew at that
391 time that there was some real controversy between some of 2 the residents at Kettle Point and those that had moved 3 into the Army barracks about whether it was appropriate 4 for them to have taken the Army barracks? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: This is a matter of public discussion 7 within the community? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yes. And that it was something that, 10 at least from some persons' perspective that -- of the 11 residents of Kettle Point, that was seen to be 12 appropriate to have done that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Right. And there was, we're told, a 15 large meeting August the 1st at Kettle Point. I think 16 the meeting was called by Tom Bressette, the Chief, and 17 where there was a hundred and fifty (150) to two hundred 18 (200) people who attended that meeting. It was about a 19 five (5) hour meeting, August the 1st. That would have 20 been three (3) days after the occupation of the barracks. 21 Did you attend that meeting at Kettle 22 Point? 23 A: No. 24 Q: No. You heard about it, I take it? 25 A: No.
401 Q: You didn't hear about this large 2 community meeting? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. In any event, the controversy 5 I gather, was something that got into the press as well, 6 didn't it? That is about whether it was appropriate for 7 those persons who occupied the Army barracks at that 8 stage to have done so. 9 A: I don't remember reading anything in 10 the press about that. 11 Q: All right. Let me see if I can 12 refresh your memory. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: All right. Mr. Bressette, I'm 17 showing you some articles, I'll give the document 18 numbers, for the record. First of all, it's Document 19 1003678, page 14, and this is an excerpt from the London 20 Free Press from August the 3rd 1995. And you'll see it's 21 titled "Armed Stand Off Dismissed". Do you see that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And you'll -- you'll see 24 that -- and let me just take you to some passages -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, perhaps my
411 Friend could ask the Witness if he read the article, had 2 seen the article ever before today. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just give 4 him a moment to look at the article. 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah, all right. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 7 have you got an extra copy of this with you? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, I don't, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I haven't 10 got my computer. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: One (1) of the -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: Okay. I've asked you to have a look 18 at the first article, "Armed Standoff". Do you see that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And do you recall that article or an 21 article like it coming to your attention back then? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. Do you recall the 24 discussion that is in the community at the time about the 25 fact that at least some members of the community as
421 reported in this article were concerned that there were 2 weapons on the base in -- with the Army Camp occupiers? 3 Do you remember there was discussion of concern about 4 that, that they had weapons? 5 A: I don't remember that. 6 Q: You don't remember any public 7 discussion or any discussion within your community about 8 that? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. And you'll see that 11 article reports a meeting of -- in this it says a hundred 12 and fifty (150) band members attended a general band 13 meeting on Tuesday, expressing their concerns about 14 weapons and natives from other reserves at the Camp. 15 Do you remember any discussion in the 16 community -- the Kettle Point community -- about that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. Do you remember any 19 discussion at all about a concern of persons in the Camp 20 who were from other reserves? 21 A: No, I -- I don't. 22 Q: All right. And do you remember that 23 there was, within the Kettle Point community, a decision 24 to ask the non-band members who were in the Army Camp to 25 leave, thank them for their -- their support and ask them
431 to leave Stoney Point? 2 A: No, I didn't hear that, either. 3 Q: You didn't hear any of this? All 4 right. And so I take it that with respect to -- we have 5 three (3) other articles that were published, the Sarnia 6 Observer, the London Free Press, and again, the Sarnia 7 Observer. 8 So four (4) articles, two (2) in the 9 Sarnia Observer and two (2) in the London Free Press all 10 discussing the concern of the -- of some members of the 11 Kettle Point community, about the presence of weapons on 12 the Army base amongst these Occupiers and of outsiders. 13 And you say you have no recollection of 14 that or of any discussion about that within the 15 community? 16 A: Yes, I have no recollection of that. 17 Q: All right. Did you -- were you aware 18 before you moved into the Army Camp barracks at the end 19 of August, '95 that there were outsiders living there? 20 Did you have any awareness of that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And I gather what -- you 23 visited, you told us the Army Camp barracks from the end 24 of July when your mother moved in until you moved in at 25 the end of August, almost on a daily basis?
441 A: Almost on a daily basis. 2 Q: Yeah. And I gather you would have, 3 in that time, have become aware that there were some non- 4 Stoney Pointer, non-Kettle Pointer persons, then living 5 in the barracks? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Okay. Were you 8 introduced to them? Did you meet any of them? 9 A: Just one (1). 10 Q: Who was that? 11 A: Les Jewel. 12 Q: All right. And did you know where he 13 was living in the barracks at the time? 14 A: At Glenn George's. 15 Q: And where was Glenn George living? 16 A: Across from my mother. 17 Q: All right. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: We're putting up the -- Exhibit P-41, 22 which is the Barracks. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
451 Q: All right. Can you then indicate for 2 us, with the pointer, where it is that Les Jewel lived? 3 That's building number 6? 4 A: Yeah. That looks like six (6). 5 Q: The Quartermaster Stores, is that 6 what it says? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And that's the building then, that is 9 immediately south of the entrance to the army barracks? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: From Highway 21? 12 A: From Army Camp Road? 13 Q: Sorry, from Army Camp Road, I'm 14 sorry, yes. Okay. Now, did you meet any other outsiders 15 from other First Nations, or even -- even non-First 16 Nations persons, living in the barracks after you moved 17 in? 18 A: Just this one (1) woman who looked 19 really nice, but she was only down for the day, I don't 20 think she was living there. 21 Q: All right. Did you meet -- you told 22 us you met Les Jewel...? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And where he was living. Did you 25 meet Russell Jewel, at any stage?
461 A: No. 2 Q: Do you know who Russell Jewel is? 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You have to answer, 4 Mr. Bressette, the -- the transcript won't pick up the 5 shaking of your head. 6 THE WITNESS: Oh. In the microphone? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. You have to say 8 yes or no and I think you were shaking your head 9 indicating no to Mr. -- 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. No. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 15 Q: I'm going to show you a photograph... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Okay, there's a photograph that's up 20 on the screen. It's photograph 1047. And we know this 21 is Russell Jewel. 22 Do you recognize him from this photograph 23 as someone you've seen? 24 A: No. I really can't even tell who 25 that is, it's kind of blurry.
471 Q: Yeah. That's a photograph that's 2 taken -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could get 4 the lights. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: That's taken on September the 6th at 8 10:32 p.m., we're told, in the maintenance shed and 9 you'll see he's a fellow with long dark hair wearing a -- 10 it looks like a camouflage vest. So he was -- we know he 11 was there in the Park on the 6th. 12 Do you recall seeing anybody that looked 13 like that? 14 A: No. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And here's another picture of someone 19 we understand was Russell Jewel, at the Park on the 6th, 20 cleaning the bus. He was out at, I gather, near the 21 maintenance building washing the bus on the 6th. 22 Does that help you? Do you recognize 23 someone that looked like that at the time? 24 A: No, I don't recognize him. 25 Q: I see.
481 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: All right. How about Robert Isaac? 4 is that someone you knew? 5 A: Yes, it was my mother's boyfriend. 6 Q: I see, okay. And he was there 7 present during the -- during the events of September the 8 6th? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yes. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Robert Isaac is not a local native, 15 is he? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Where's he from? 18 A: Walpole. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Okay, now -- and that's Robert Isaac 23 wearing the hat in the -- the back of the picnic bench, 24 that is the individual without the shirt, isn't it? 25 A: Yes.
491 Q: Yes. And that's you, sitting on the 2 picnic bench, isn't it? 3 A: Yeah, right there. 4 Q: Yeah. This was taken on September 5 the 6th. You're sitting on the right-hand side of the -- 6 of the photograph? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And there's a baseball bat right 9 beside you. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Was that your baseball bat? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Whose was it? 14 A: I don't know whose it was. 15 Q: It was sitting there beside you, but 16 you -- did you see anybody carrying that baseball bat 17 around? 18 A: I can't remember anymore. 19 Q: All right. That's Stewart George 20 sitting immediately to your right, isn't it? Up on the 21 bench? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that's Joe George with his hands 24 over his face? 25 A: I don't know.
501 Q: You don't know. And did you know 2 Robert Isaac as someone living in the army base at the 3 time? 4 A: No, I didn't. 5 Q: You didn't. You say he -- you didn't 6 know then he was your mother's boyfriend? 7 A: He wasn't at the time. 8 Q: I see. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: When did you first meet Robert Isaac? 13 A: When I first moved into the Camp. 14 Q: That was the end of August? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And he was there in the Camp then? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And where was he living 19 in the Camp? 20 A: He wasn't in the Camp. 21 Q: He wasn't living in the Camp? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did he subsequently move into the 24 Camp? 25 A: After a while.
511 Q: I see. This was when? Later in 2 September or...? 3 A: I'm not sure exactly when. 4 Q: All right. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: All right, this is photograph 994 and 9 it shows -- by the way, this was taken on September the 10 6th, 1995 and it shows you sitting at the picnic bench 11 with your hand on your cheek. Right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes. And sitting to your right with 14 a white sleeveless T-shirt is Al George. Right? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And Al George isn't someone from 17 Stony or Kettle Point, is he? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Where is he from? 20 A: I don't know. 21 Q: Okay. When did you first meet Al 22 George? 23 A: I guess that day. 24 Q: All right. And did -- did you know 25 then or did you learn thereafter that he was living in
521 the Army Camp barracks? 2 A: No. I don't keep track of people. 3 Q: All right. All right. And between - 4 - sorry -- and between the photographer and the bench, 5 there's a -- a vehicle that has written on it, as I 6 understand it -- we see part of the word, it says, "Pig 7 Fucker", I think is the full word on the car. 8 Do you remember that car? 9 A: No. No, I don't. 10 Q: You -- you don't remember it? 11 A: No, it's too long ago to remember it. 12 Q: I see. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: All right, this is a photograph of a 17 person by the name of Dutch French, I think is his name. 18 Also may be Larry French. 19 Do you recognize this person as someone 20 that was there in the Park as this photograph was taken 21 on September 6th, '95? 22 A: No. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
531 Q: You were there in the Park the whole 2 day on September 6th, weren't you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And were you moving around in the 5 Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And there weren't that many people in 8 the Park at the time were there? 9 A: No. 10 Q: A couple of dozen, maybe? And so you 11 likely would have seen everybody that was there at one 12 time or another on September the 6th, wouldn't you? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And you don't recall seeing 15 this individual. 16 A: I don't even remember meeting him. 17 Q: I see. Did you subsequently meet 18 Dutch French? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No? It's not someone you know at 21 all? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
541 Q: All right. My assistants are 2 challenged technically, but I am very grateful for their 3 assistance, because I couldn't even do what they're 4 doing. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's hope 6 they can. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 11 Q: Okay, this is a photograph taken on 12 September the 5th at the Army -- Army camp and it shows 13 an individual by the name of Wayne Wilson. 14 Do you recognize him as someone -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- that you met? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: You -- you never -- you don't recall 19 ever meeting anybody that looked like this? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No. Let me show you another one that 22 may help. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
551 Q: All right. There's two (2) 2 individuals in the middle of this Picture 527 walking 3 towards the photographer. First an individual without a 4 shirt on. Do you recognize who that is? 5 A: It looks like Glenn George. 6 Q: All right. And behind him, you'll 7 see an individual with what appears to be long, blonde 8 hair. And we understand that's Wayne Wilson. 9 Do you recognize that person? 10 A: No. 11 Q: No. This was taken on September the 12 6th, '95, in the Park. Doesn't help you? 13 A: Doesn't help me. 14 Q: All right. Let me give you one more 15 to look at, 528, again a picture taken on September 6th 16 '95 in the Park showing in the middle of the photograph 17 Wayne Wilson walking towards the photographer. 18 Does that help you? 19 A: No. 20 Q: You still don't have any recollection 21 of this individual? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You don't know of a -- of anybody who 24 looks like this who's a resident of Kettle or Stony 25 Point, I gather?
561 A: No, I don't. 2 Q: And you don't remember anybody like 3 this in the Army camp barracks while you were there in 4 August and September? 5 A: No, I don't. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: All right, here we have a group of 10 individuals in a photograph taken September the 6th '95 11 in the Park and the person on the far left, we 12 understand, is Les Jewel. Do you recognize him? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: All right. This is a photograph 19 taken on September the 6th, 1995 at 6:32 p.m. in the 20 maintenance shed and we understand that's a photograph of 21 Les Jewel. Again, do you recognize that as Les Jewel? 22 A: That's hard to recognize. 23 Q: All right. Were you ever in the 24 maintenance shed? 25 A: Yes.
571 Q: And on what occasion were you in the 2 maintenance shed? 3 A: I can't remember. I was there a 4 couple of times, I think. 5 Q: And that's in -- on September the 5th 6 or September the 6th, '95? 7 A: Around those times, I'm not sure. 8 Q: You're not sure? 9 A: I don't know. 10 Q: All right. I think you told us 11 yesterday that you didn't know Buck Doxtator? 12 A: No. 13 Q: I'm going to show you a picture of 14 him and ask you if that helps you remember or recall that 15 you saw someone that looked like that. See, he's a 16 rather stout fellow and I gather generally wore a bandana 17 around his head as we see in this photograph. 18 Does that help you recall seeing someone 19 like that -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: -- on September 5th and 6th? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No? All right this was -- we -- we 24 can see, taken in the maintenance shed on September the 25 7th, '95 at 3:00 in the morning. Yeah, 3:00 in the
581 morning, right? Oh, sorry, three (3) minutes after 2 midnight. I'm -- I'm to be corrected. 3 That's -- that's just a midnight or just 4 after midnight on September the 7th, so just after the 5 events that occurred in -- at the fence and in the sandy 6 parking lot, but you don't remember seeing anybody that 7 looked like this? 8 A: No. 9 Q: No. Let me ask you if I could, then, 10 about a couple of other individuals. Bruce Elijah, is 11 that someone whose name you recognize? 12 A: I've heard it. 13 Q: I see. Did you ever recall meeting 14 anybody by the name of Bruce Elijah? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No. And in what context have you 17 heard the name? 18 A: Just from talk, like, my mother -- my 19 mother or peer. 20 Q: And when was that? 21 A: Just over the years. 22 Q: Was it back in -- in '95? 23 A: No. 24 Q: No? All right. And what about Bob 25 Anton (phonetic). Is that a name you recognize?
591 A: I've heard it, but I've never met him 2 either. 3 Q: All right. And again, did you hear 4 it from your mother or from discussions with your mother? 5 A: Maybe reading it in the paper. 6 Q: I see. Okay, let me turn, if I could 7 then, to your evidence about September the 4th. You 8 said, in answer to Mr. Millar's questions, that you -- 9 when you were in the Park, having gone into the Park on 10 September the 4th, that you had a club in your hand. 11 Remember that? That you said yesterday 12 that you did have a stick or club in your hand? 13 A: Yeah, I had one (1) in my hand. 14 Q: Yeah. And can you tell us, why did 15 you have a stick or club in your hand? What was the 16 purpose of that? 17 A: To chase the police off. 18 Q: I see. That is, if the police 19 weren't prepared to leave, you were going to use the club 20 to threaten or intimidate them to leave? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I take it, if necessary, you were 23 prepared to use the club to force them to leave? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Mr. Bressette, let me then turn to
601 the events of September the 6th, and you described to Mr. 2 Millar yesterday, Cecil Bernard George coming upon you 3 while you were putting a table on the large bonfire? A 4 picnic table; right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yes. And that he had a walkie- 7 talkie? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that he subsequently then, went 10 out onto the -- along East Parkway and used his walkie- 11 talkie to report back about the information of what he 12 was seeing along East Parkway? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you heard that report from the 15 other walkie-talkie to which he was transmitting his 16 messages? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Were you holding the walkie-talkie? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Who was? 21 A: I don't know. 22 Q: And where were you when you were 23 receiving these messages? 24 A: Behind the fence. 25 Q: By the -- by the large bonfire?
611 A: No, over by the turnstile. 2 Q: Okay. You had moved south to the 3 turnstile, had you? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Now, you've told us as 6 well, yesterday, that you threw rocks and sticks and 7 clubs at the police from your position of safety behind 8 the fence? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yes. And you -- I think you said you 11 threw so many rocks that you ran out of rocks? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes. And we know, and you've told 14 us, that there was rocks that were stock-piled, before 15 the police came marching down East Parkway? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Yes. And so you and others, I take 18 it, had used up all of those rocks? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And -- and I gather there were 21 literally dozens and dozens of rocks that were thrown at 22 the police before they were all used up? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes. And those rocks, I take it, 25 would have landed in the area of the parking lot, the
621 sandy parking lot, west of the fence? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And some of them might have even made 4 it out to the paved portion of the intersection? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Likewise, the sticks and 7 clubs that you threw, would have been thrown out at the 8 police in the sandy parking lot and some of them might 9 have made it, as well, to the pavement? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And you say that there 12 were a number of chopped down, sturdy trees, cut into 13 club length that were thrown? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what were the lengths of those? 16 Were they a couple of feet long or how long were they? 17 A: About the height of me. 18 Q: All right. And so that would be, 19 what, five (5), over five (5) feet? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: How tall are you? 22 A: Five (5) seven (7). 23 Q: All right. So they were fairly long, 24 chopped-down sturdy trees? 25 A: Yes.
631 Q: Yes. And you used up most of those 2 too, didn't you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did you also throw any of those, 5 having lit one (1) end or the other on fire? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you see some burning clubs being 8 thrown? 9 A: No. 10 Q: No. And just to stick with these 11 clubs, again, would have been literally dozens and dozens 12 of them thrown out? At the police? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yes. Fifty (50), or more? 15 A: I don't have an accurate number. 16 Q: A lot....? 17 A: A lot. 18 Q: All right. And did you -- you pretty 19 well ran out of those too, I gather? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And what you've told us 22 is that subsequently you went out, this is, I think, 23 after the -- the bus had come out, you went out into the 24 sandy parking lot, west of the fence, and you were 25 picking up sticks and you were picking up rocks that --
641 that had been thrown into that area, and throwing them at 2 the police as they retreated west? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And so I gather the parking lot at 5 that stage was literally covered with sticks and rocks? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And as the police retreated in a 8 westerly direction along East Parkway, those sticks and 9 rocks were picked up by you and, I gather, by others and 10 thrown at them. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you saw other occupiers doing the 13 same thing as you? 14 A: I didn't. 15 Q: You didn't see any? 16 A: No, I was just moving too fast. 17 Q: You were busy picking up and throwing 18 these rocks and sticks? 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And I gather the rocks that you were 24 throwing were fairly sizable rocks. They'd been 25 collected for the purpose of being projectiles to be
651 thrown at the police, and they were a fairly sizable in 2 terms of their mass. 3 A: About the size of your hand. 4 Q: Yeah, four (4) inches or so in 5 diameter? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. It'd hurt if they hit 8 you, wouldn't it? 9 A: Yes, they would. 10 Q: Okay. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now you told us yesterday that before 15 you went out into the sandy parking lot, you saw a light. 16 You described it as a -- like a flashlight or a camera, 17 south of you. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And at that stage, you were standing 20 at or near the turnstile, I take it? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And when you say you saw it south of 23 you, you saw it, you said inside the fence line -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- up on the sandy berm.
661 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Okay, the photograph I'm now showing 7 you is 04 in the collection of photographs and it --it 8 depicts the scene on September the 18th. This photograph 9 was taken, as I understand it, by the SIU or the OPP. 10 They were both, I think, taking photographs that day. 11 And it -- it's facing in an easterly 12 direction from East Parkway Drive, although the caption 13 says facing north. I think we've -- we've determined 14 that it's -- for our purposes that this is facing more 15 east than north. 16 In any event, there is -- we see on the 17 right side of the photograph, right of the gate, there's 18 a berm. You see that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Ignore the one in the front, because 21 we'll talk about that a little later, but the one behind, 22 further distant, and immediately to the right of the gate 23 there's a berm and there's a pole near the top of it, a 24 telephone pole. You see that? 25 A: Yes.
671 Q: Now was that the direction from which 2 you saw the flashlight? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And you saw it shining in 5 -- towards you in a northerly direction? 6 A: Yes. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Okay, this is a Photograph Number 10 11 in the collection of photographs, again taken on 12 September 18, 1995, and it's facing in a southerly 13 direction, looking down along the fence line which is 14 really to the left of the photographer, moving away from 15 the photographer. 16 And you'll see down at the -- along that 17 line of trees that goes from left -- lower left to the 18 upper right, there's then a rise or berm both on the left 19 or east and the west or right of the tree line. 20 Do you see that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And can you tell us where 23 up on that berm that -- from which you saw the light. 24 About where was the light coming from? 25 A: Right up there somewhere.
681 Q: All right. Showing -- it's hard to 2 describe. It's showing be -- there's a group of trees, 3 the last group of trees along the line begins with a tree 4 with a fairly substantial trunk and you've indicated just 5 to the left of that tree, up on the berm. Is that fair? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Did you -- now, was this light that 12 you saw one (1) that was constant in duration or was it a 13 flickering light? Can you describe how long you saw it 14 and how long it was moving? Or was it fixed? 15 A: It was fixed and it was a constant 16 light, but I wasn't concentrating on it. After a while I 17 just kept watch out on East Parkway Drive and then the 18 sandy parking lot. 19 Q: And did it -- did the light have a 20 beam to it? 21 A: It was a beam-like light. 22 Q: All right. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
691 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We put up on the 2 projector a photograph from Exhibit P-24, the collection 3 of photographs from Mr. Stan Thompson and it's described 4 -- pardon me? 5 It's Photograph Number 19 and it's 6 described as a view from the sand bank area towards the 7 vacant buildings and the road curve at East Parkway Drive 8 and Army Camp Road looking west. 9 It's -- actually this is taken from the 10 inside of the -- of the Park, looking west towards the -- 11 looking west, towards East Parkway -- yeah, that's what 12 it's doing. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 15 Q: Okay, Mr. Bressette, just so that we 16 can then use this photograph we see on the left of the 17 photograph that there's a sandy berm and there's a 18 telephone pole that appears at the top of that, and what 19 looks like a snow fence running along it as well. 20 And can you locate where the light was 21 coming from using this photograph? 22 A: Around in this area. 23 Q: Okay, showing the area by the snow 24 fence immediately to the left of the telephone pole. Is 25 that fair? On the photograph --
701 A: Yeah. 2 Q: But in -- on -- but you say -- was it 3 on the -- 4 A: Inside -- 5 Q: -- Park side of the snow fence? 6 A: On the Park side. 7 Q: Okay. Good. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Okay, thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 13 going to be much longer, Mr. Roland? 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'll be a bit longer, 15 yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps we 17 should have a break now. 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 20 for fifteen (15) minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 10:27 a.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 10:42 a.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
711 resumed. Please be seated. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, it 3 perhaps would be a good idea that if we create a -- a 4 record of the photographs that were looked at by Mr. 5 Bressette and what -- what I propose that we do is simply 6 reserve the next exhibit number, it would be P-82, I 7 believe and we will create a CD-ROM and file it next 8 time, of those photographs. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All of them 10 or just the ones that -- 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The ones that were 12 referred to. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- were 14 referred to. Okay. Okay, Mr. Roland. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT P-82: CD-ROM of photographs that were 17 viewed by Glen Bressette on November 18 10, 2004 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 21 Q: Thank you. Just a few more 22 questions, Mr. Bressette. Let me turn to the incident 23 involving Gerald George on the -- on September the 6th. 24 You told Mr. Millar yesterday that you 25 understood that the animosity that you witnessed with
721 respect to Gerald George in that incident -- incident, 2 stemmed from, you thought, some -- something he'd written 3 to the papers. Right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you were referring -- I think you 6 -- did you tell us, a -- a letter that he'd written to 7 the newspaper, or did you know? 8 A: A -- a letter that he published. I 9 don't know if it went to the paper or passed -- passed it 10 through the community. 11 Q: I see. We -- we have already as an 12 Exhibit, P-73, which is a letter that he authored -- 13 Gerald George authored -- sent to the Forest Standard on 14 Wednesday, August the 30th and is that -- I'm going to 15 show it to you and see if you think that's the letter 16 you're referring to. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Yeah, this looks like the letter. 21 Q: All right. And were you also aware 22 at the time that Mr. Gerald George had been quoted in the 23 Newspaper earlier in August -- August the 3rd -- critical 24 of the occupiers? 25 A: I never heard that.
731 Q: You didn't. You read that article 2 that I gave you this morning and, I take it, read that in 3 that article. Is that the first time you were aware of 4 that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Okay, let me take you to 7 the roadway on East Parkway Drive after the incident. 8 After the confrontation with the police, 9 you say that you and others, including Glenn George, went 10 out, I gather in the early hours of September the 7th, 11 and you looked along East Parkway for, among other 12 things, shell casings? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And I think you said you 15 collected some twenty-seven (27). 16 A: Twenty-nine (29). 17 Q: Sorry, twenty-nine (29) and they were 18 in bag or bags. Was there one (1) bag or more than one 19 (1) bag? 20 A: I don't know. 21 Q: All right. And I gather from you 22 evidence, that Glenn George was taking control of the 23 search; he was the one that was -- was collecting the 24 casings that people had found and gathering them together 25 in a bag or bags?
741 A: No, he wasn't in control of the 2 search, everybody was just out there at once. 3 Q: Well, who -- how did you come to be 4 there? Who organized the search? 5 A: Everyone said, Let's go out there and 6 look around. 7 Q: And when you say, Everyone, you only 8 remember Glenn George? 9 A: Yeah, just him. 10 Q: You only remembered him. About how 11 many people? 12 A: I don't know. 13 Q: Well, was it more or less than five 14 (5)? 15 A: I don't know. 16 Q: It could have been as few as five 17 (5)? 18 A: I don't know. 19 Q: I see. And what were you looking 20 for? Were you only looking for shell casings or were 21 you looking for anything else? 22 A: Just shell casings. 23 Q: I see and did you pick up anything 24 else besides shell casings? 25 A: Nothing else.
751 Q: And did you see anybody else pick 2 anything up besides shell casings? 3 A: Nothing else. 4 Q: No? All right. Can you tell us, if 5 we put up the map of the... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: We're going to look at Exhibit P-23, 11 and can you tell us, on that exhibit, where it is you 12 looked for shell casings? 13 A: Right in this area and over here. 14 Q: So, you're showing us, first of all, 15 on the south side of East Parkway Drive, immediately to 16 the east of the driveway that goes north from East 17 Parkway? 18 A: Is this a driveway? 19 Q: Yes. And you -- but you were on the 20 south side, -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- of East Parkway, immediately east 23 of that driveway? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Where that driveway intersects East
761 Parkway? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And you looked there 4 first of all, along -- did you find any shell casings 5 there? 6 A: A few. 7 Q: How many? 8 A: I don't have an accurate count. 9 Q: More or less than five (5)? 10 A: I don't know. 11 Q: You don't know. All right. And 12 where else did you look? 13 A: Right up in this area. 14 Q: All right. And that, you're showing 15 immediately to the north of the location you first 16 described; that is, on the north side of East Parkway 17 Drive? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And how many shell casings did you 20 find there? 21 A: I don't know. 22 Q: Did you find any? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Do you know whether it 25 was more or less than five (5)?
771 A: I don't know. 2 Q: All right. And did you see where 3 anybody else found shell casings? 4 A: It was just in these areas that I 5 highlighted. 6 Q: I see. That is, both on the north 7 and the south side of East Parkway, immediately east of 8 where the driveway intersects East Parkway? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And did you look in other 11 places? 12 A: We shone farther down the road there, 13 but we couldn't find any more. 14 Q: Yes...? And did you look further 15 east as well? 16 A: Further east? 17 Q: Yes. Sorry, further east, did you 18 look east of -- 19 A: Oh, east. 20 Q: -- east. Did you look any -- did you 21 look further east of where you say you found them? 22 A: Yeah, we were out there with 23 flashlights for a little while, but we couldn't find 24 anything. 25 Q: All right. And so, did everybody
781 have a flashlight? 2 A: No. 3 Q: How many flashlights did you have? 4 A: I can't remember. 5 Q: All right. Now, we know, from your 6 evidence, that there were a whole lot of stones and a 7 whole lot of clubs scattered both in the Park in the 8 parking lot, west of the fence and along East Parkway at 9 the intersection, and I take it, all those were there 10 when you were looking? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you move those off? Did you 13 pick them up and move them off or do something with them? 14 A: I wasn't. 15 Q: Did you see anybody else do anything 16 with all of those projectiles that had gather in the 17 parking lot and on the -- on East Parkway? 18 A: No, there was people all over the 19 place. 20 Q: All right. How many people, when you 21 say people all over the place, how many? 22 A: Well, there was about twenty (20) 23 there that night and then all these people came along the 24 next day and they were walking all around in that area 25 too.
791 Q: All right. Okay. That -- we're 2 talking about on the -- the morning of the 7th of 3 September? 4 A: On the morning of the 7th. 5 Q: All right. And did you re-attend at 6 this location on the morning of the 7th? 7 A: I just drove by the burnt out Park 8 store and went back up to the front, I didn't go to that 9 area. 10 Q: But you saw people there? 11 A: There was nobody there at the time. 12 Q: I see. And when you say there was a 13 whole lot of people there the next day, are you referring 14 to the morning of September the 7th? 15 A: Morning of September the 7th. 16 Q: Yes. And how do you know there was a 17 whole lot of people in that area then? 18 A: Because a bunch of them went down the 19 road to where the Police Command Post was. 20 Q: And did you see that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No. All right. Did you work on 23 September the 7th? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you work on September the 8th?
801 A: No. 2 Q: And we know that September the 9th 3 was a Saturday, so you wouldn't have worked that day...? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. And were you there at the 6 Army Camp and at the Park on the 7th, 8th, and 9th of 7 September? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yes. You stayed there? 10 A: Dropped down during the daytime. 11 Q: I'm sorry...? 12 A: I would go down during the daytime. 13 Q: Down to where, the Park? 14 A: To -- to the Park. 15 Q: Yes. You were living in the -- in 16 the barracks at the time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yes. And we see there's a -- on this 19 diagram, there's a sandy berm or -- or mound, yes, you're 20 pointing your cursor at that. 21 It's -- or Mr. Millar is -- yes, that berm 22 is located, you'll see -- we see on the south side of the 23 sandy parking lot, sort of the west corner of it, 24 southwest corner of it. 25 And it -- it appears to -- to be a pile of
811 sand that is elongated north and south. Now, we -- we 2 saw a picture of this a little earlier this morning on 3 September the 18th, right, when we looked at those 4 photographs? 5 We saw this there -- this berm there, a 6 pile of sand there, on September the 18th? There it is. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yes. This is Photograph Number 4. 9 Now, do you -- can you tell us when that pile of sand 10 first appeared and how it came to be there? 11 A: No, I can't. 12 Q: It wasn't there the night of 13 September the 6th? 14 A: I don't think it was. 15 Q: No. And so -- but you can't assist 16 us in telling us how it came to be there between the 6th 17 and the 18th of September? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No. Okay. On September the 9th, 20 that's the Saturday, were you down in this area at the 21 Park. 22 A: September the 9th? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: I should have been. I can't remember 25 the exact day.
821 Q: Well, we've seen a video taken of 2 this area by a cottager shot in an easterly direction 3 down East Parkway and it shows a whole lot of people, 4 presumably Native people, in this area on Saturday 5 September the 9th, I think at about 1:30 in the 6 afternoon. 7 Were you there at the time? 8 A: I can't say if I was. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: I don't remember it. 11 Q: All right. The video seems to show a 12 large vehicle of some sort, maroon in colour, that's 13 parked, it appears, in the area of the gate, either on 14 the Park side of it, or on the parking lot side of it. 15 Do you recall a large vehicle -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- down there at the time? No? It 18 appears to have some kind of mechanism on the roof that's 19 turning. We see that in the video. 20 Do you have any recollection -- does that 21 help you recall a large vehicle being there? 22 A: I don't recall. 23 Q: All right. And the video seems to 24 show individuals, at least one (1) individual, digging 25 with a shovel. Can you help us what -- do you recall
831 anybody doing that? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: You don't recall. Okay. What is 4 clear from this photograph and the other one that we 5 saw... 6 If we're looking at Picture 4 and Picture 7 10, it appears that the stones and the -- and the sticks 8 and clubs and so on that would have accumulated in the 9 parking lot aren't there on September the 18th, isn't -- 10 isn't that fair to say? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And do -- do you know how they came 13 to be cleaned up? How they came to be removed from the 14 parking lot? 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: Or from the -- from East Parkway? 17 You don't recall any of that? Do you recall 18 participating in any clean up? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Thank you, Mr. Bressette. Those are 25 my questions.
841 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Mr. Roland. Ms. McAleer...? 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 5 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette. 6 A: Morning. 7 Q: My name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm 8 one of the lawyers who's acting for former Premier Mike 9 Harris. I just have a couple of quick questions for you. 10 Mr. Millar asked you a series of questions 11 regarding the incident between Roderick George and the 12 OPP in the Provincial Park on the night of September 4th, 13 do you recall that? 14 A: Who? 15 Q: Mr. Millar asked you a number of 16 questions about the incident between Roderick George and 17 the OPP in the Park on September 4th. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And with reference to the 20 occupiers, you had indicated that, There was a big group 21 of us, but that you didn't know how many police officers 22 had been present. 23 A: I didn't. I don't know. 24 Q: Did you have the impression that 25 there were more occupiers than there were police
851 officers? 2 A: It seemed like there were more of us. 3 Q: Now, after that incident between 4 Roderick George and the police, did you or did anyone 5 else in your group, as far as you are aware, indicate to 6 Mr. George, Mr. Roderick George, that his actions had not 7 been appropriate; that it had been wrong to break the 8 cruiser window? 9 A: I don't recall anyone saying that. 10 Q: And after the incident between 11 Stewart George and Gerald George, did you or anybody else 12 that was with you indicate to Stewart George that it had 13 been wrong to hit Gerald George or to throw rocks at his 14 car? 15 A: I don't recall anyone saying that. 16 Q: Now, you indicated that there was 17 some media present on the second day of the occupation on 18 September 5th. 19 Do you recall indicating that to Mr. 20 Millar? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you indicated that some cars were 23 doing donuts and driving crazy for the media? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Did any of the occupiers attempt to
861 approach the media and speak to the media? 2 A: I don't recall if they did. 3 Q: Were you present the whole time that 4 the media were there? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. Thank you, those are all my 7 questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Sulman, next. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Sulman? 12 Good day. 13 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Good morning, Mr. 14 Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good day, 16 sir. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 19 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette. 20 A: Good morning. 21 Q: My name's Douglas Sulman and I 22 represent Marcel Beaubien, who was the MPP at the time of 23 the incident and Mr. Bressette, yesterday you told Mr. 24 Millar that you first became aware of the dispute over 25 the army camp in 1990. Do you recall that?
871 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay, and this dispute, as it's 3 called, was a dispute arising out of the Government of 4 Canada's taking over of the reserve lands to create an 5 army base during the Second World War and failing to 6 return it almost fifty (50) years later. Correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I believe you said that the event 9 in 1990 that first made you aware of the dispute with the 10 Government of Canada was when protesters were picketing 11 outside the army camp seeking its return to the Stoney 12 Point people. Have I got that correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the protesters were located, at 15 that time, in 1990, outside the army camp base. Were 16 they -- were they holding up signs like in a union 17 strike? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And the protesters, at that 20 time in 1990, at that protest, were peaceful. Correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And -- and what were they doing, just 23 sort of walking back and forth carrying signs and letting 24 people know what their dispute was? 25 A: Yes.
881 Q: Okay. And at this 1990 protest, 2 these protesters weren't carrying any weapons like bats 3 or clubs or sticks, rocks, axe handles; right? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: Okay. And you told Mr. Millar that 6 you were also aware of what's been called, The March to 7 Ottawa in 1993. Right? Yes? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that was also a protest over the 10 army base possession and a protest against the Federal 11 Government. Correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that, too, was, to the best of 14 your knowledge, a very peaceful protest without any 15 weapons like clubs, bats, sticks? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And the march to Ottawa, and 18 it was to Ottawa because that's where the Canadian 19 Government seat is located and that's where the Minister 20 of Defence and the Minister of Indian and Northern 21 Affairs is located. Correct? That's why they went to 22 Ottawa? 23 A: Yes, but I'm not sure exactly where 24 all those people are. 25 Q: Okay. Fair enough, but you know that
891 that's where the Government of Canada -- 2 A: The Government is. 3 Q: Okay. And when this -- what we've 4 been told is, the march to Ottawa was a peaceful one and 5 when the protesters got there, they were apparently 6 snubbed by the representatives of the Federal Government. 7 Are you aware of that? 8 A: That's what I heard. 9 Q: Okay. And are you also aware that 10 the -- the Kettle and Stony Point Band Councils had 11 written the Government of Canada requesting the return of 12 the lands taken by the Government in 1942 and they'd also 13 entered into discussions with the Government of Canada or 14 negotiations over the army camp base? 15 Are you aware of that? 16 A: When did that happen? 17 Q: Well, I'm asking you whether you're 18 aware prior to September 1995? 19 A: Yes, they were working to try and get 20 it back. 21 Q: Okay. In fact, that even preceded 22 1993, when the Army camp was occupied? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And the Stoney Pointers, many 25 of whom are your relatives, entered the Army camp base in
901 1993 and that was, as I understand the evidence from 2 others, out of frustration over the actions or inactions 3 of the federal government, correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And I think you've explained 6 and others have explained the frustration with the 7 government of Canada and that resulted in protests 8 outside the Army camp base, the march to Ottawa that 9 we've talked about, and -- and then the occupation of the 10 Army base, correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. But prior to September 1995, 13 there had never been similar protests or picketing 14 outside the Provincial Park requesting that it be turned 15 over to the Stoney Point band or any other Native band, 16 had there? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay, and there had never been a 19 march to Toronto to speak to the provincial government or 20 the Minister of Natural Resources who operates the 21 Provincial Park, had there? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And you're not aware of any letters 24 from the Stoney Point band or negotiations with the 25 provincial government to return the Park, prior to
911 September '95, right? 2 A: No. 3 Q: So, prior to September '95, there had 4 been no public protests over the Provincial Park, right? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Okay. So I suggest to you the 7 Provincial Park situation was very different than the 8 Army camp base, at least prior to September 1995. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Let me change topics just a 11 bit, Mr. Bressette. You told us in your evidence 12 yesterday that in August 1995 you'd moved in and were 13 living with your uncle Dudley George. 14 Have I got that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I believe you described your 17 relationship with him as close. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Right? And you said that you and he 20 talked frequently, right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And I believe you told us 23 yesterday that at the end of August, Dudley had said to 24 you that the Army camp occupiers needed to take over the 25 Provincial Park, right?
921 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I -- he gave you two (2) reasons. 3 The first was that he told that there was a burial ground 4 there although he didn't know where exactly it was, 5 right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you said yesterday, 8 "Dudley told me that he didn't want 9 campers partying on the graves". 10 You recall saying that yesterday? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. But of course by the time you 13 and others entered the Park on September 4th, 1995, there 14 were no campers at the Park because it had closed to 15 campers on September 4th, right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. So there was no particular 18 need to protect the graves from campers partying on them 19 on September 4th, since there were no campers there any 20 more, right? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: Okay. And then Dudley, you said -- 23 you told us yesterday Dudley gave you his other reason 24 for occupying the Park and you said these words: 25 "Dudley said we need to take over the
931 Park to get media attention, because 2 we're not getting enough at the Army 3 base." 4 Correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that's the reason you moved to 7 take over the -- the Park at that particular day after 8 the Park had been closed to Park -- to campers, isn't it? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Thank you. Now in your conversations 11 with Dudley, did he also express his view that not only 12 should the Army camp base and the Provincial Park be 13 returned to your People, but next after the Park the 14 lands from the Army camp to Port Franks and the Army camp 15 to Ravenswood Road should be taken over? 16 A: I never said that. 17 Q: Did he ever talk to you about that? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. Those are my questions, sir. 20 Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much. I think we're up to you, Mr. Scullion. 23 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25
941 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 2 Q: Mr. Roland referred you to a number 3 of names today of people that he referred to as outsiders 4 from other communities, including Robert Isaac. 5 Do you remember him asking you those 6 questions? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And, in fact, members of other 9 communities such as Oneida, Walpole Island and others 10 that'd come and visited the camp and the Park. 11 Do you recall that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: In your experience, you visited other 14 communities including those two (2) communities? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: In fact, it's fair to suggest that 17 First Nations people visit communities all the time, 18 don't they? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You're free to come and go the 21 communities and to visit as you wish? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And in fact a number of people came 24 and visited the community in August and September of 25 1995, as supporters of what was going on; isn't that
951 correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And are you aware that the Chief of 4 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation at the time, Chief 5 Tom Bressette, had contacted other communities and told 6 them not to come around? 7 A: I've -- I've heard of that. 8 Q: All right. Were you aware of that at 9 the time? 10 A: Yes, I was aware of that at - at the 11 time. 12 Q: You were aware that Chief Bressette 13 was discouraging other members of other communities from 14 coming by and supporting what the people of Stoney Point 15 were doing? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: In fact, he was telling them, it is 18 an internal matter and none of their business; correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: In your evidence-in-chief, Mr. Millar 21 asked you a number of questions about times that you were 22 stopped by checkpoints on Army Camp Road and on East 23 Parkway Drive; do you recall that yesterday? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you referred, at one point, to
961 being pulled over on September 5, 1995, in the morning 2 when you're driving your brother-in-law, or giving him a 3 ride to work. 4 And you indicated that the officer at that 5 time was dressed in an outfit different, in your view, 6 from the usual OPP uniform? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you referred to it, I believe, as 9 a camouflage outfit, I'm sorry, a combat outfit, Mr. -- 10 A: Combat. 11 Q: -- Millar corrects me, a combat 12 outfit similar to that worn by people in the Army? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you referred to being pulled over 15 later that day by an officer at another checkpoint that 16 was wearing what you referred to as a regular uniform? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: At the first checkpoint that you were 19 pulled over by the individual, the police officer in the 20 combat outfit, were any questions put to you regarding 21 what was going on in the Park? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did they pass any messages on to you 24 to pass over to people in the Park? 25 A: No.
971 Q: Was there any discussion whatsoever 2 of what was going on in the Park during that discussion 3 with the OPP -- or the officer at the time? 4 A: No. 5 Q: When you were pulled over later that 6 day, September 5th, were any questions put to you 7 regarding what was going on in the Park? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did they pass any messages on to you 10 to pass on to people that were in the Park? 11 A: No. 12 Q: You mentioned that on September 6th, 13 you also went through checkpoints with Dudley George, 14 when you drove him to and from Wyoming? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: In one or both of those pull-overs, 17 at those checkpoints, did the police ask any questions 18 about what was going on in the Park? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And did they pass any messages on to 21 you to pass on to any of the individuals in the Park? 22 A: No. 23 Q: There was no discussion whatsoever, 24 was there, of what was going on in the Park? 25 A: No, there wasn't.
981 Q: Thank you Mr. Commissioner, those are 2 my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much, Mr. Roland. Any re-examination, Mr. Millar. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I have 6 no re-examination. I wish to thank Mr. Bressette, on 7 behalf of the Commissioner for attending and giving his 8 evidence and he's free to go. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much, Mr. Bressette. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 13 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 14 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could take 16 five (5) minutes while we get organized for the next 17 witness. It will be Mr. -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The next 19 witness is here and ready to go? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good. 22 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 23 Inquiry will recess for five (5) minutes. 24 25 --- Upon adjourning at 11:12 a.m.
991 --- Upon resuming at 11:22 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed. Please be seated. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 6 you call the next witness, Mr. Worme, I'd just -- there's 7 something I want to advise Counsel and Parties of. As 8 you all know, while we're doing this evidentiary Hearing, 9 which we call Part 1, there's significant activity going 10 on with respect to Part 2. Most of you are involved in 11 that in one (1) way or another or your clients certainly 12 are. 13 I just would like to advise everybody 14 here, parties and counsel, that I will be attending the 15 Assembly of Chiefs of Ontario in Thunder Bay some time 16 tomorrow. The Chiefs of Ontario is the umbrella 17 organization for all status Indian communities in 18 Ontario. Its mandate is to represent the interests of 19 all a hundred and thirty-four (134) First Nations in 20 Ontario on issues of wide significance. 21 I will be attending the Assembly with Mr. 22 Worme, our Counsel, and with Mr. Nye Thomas, who is our 23 Director of Policy and Research. In my view, events like 24 this are important -- an important part of our Inquiry's 25 education mandate, the public education mandate. I will
1001 certainly not be discussing any of the evidence. 2 I may be asked to give a brief update on 3 the background of the Inquiry and the process. If any 4 Counsel here or Parties would like to suggest other 5 events of a similar nature that I should attend, I wish 6 you would advise our Commission Counsel and I would be 7 happy to consider them as well. Thank you. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you very much, 9 Mr. Commissioner. The next witness the Commission calls 10 is Dale Timothy Plain. I've advised the Registrar that 11 Mr. Plain will swear by alternate means. 12 13 DALE TIMOTHY GEORGE-PLAIN, Sworn 14 15 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: And just so I'm -- I'm clear and that 17 the record is clear, Mr. Plain, it's George hyphen Plain? 18 A: Yeah, it's supposed to be. 19 Q: All right. And for the purposes of 20 my examination of you, may I call you Mr. Plain? 21 A: If you want to. 22 Q: I -- it's -- it's your name and you 23 can have your preference. I can certainly call you Mr. 24 George-Plain, if you wish. 25 A: Whatever you like.
1011 Q: All right. I understand that you 2 were born, then, on the 27th of October, 1978? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: That would make you twenty-six (26) 5 years young at this moment? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And in September of 1995, you would 8 have been sixteen (16) years of age. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Your parents are Dale Clarence 11 Plain -- 12 A: Yeah. Yes. 13 Q: And your mother is Tina Renee George? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You have two (2) sister, Phoebe and 16 Julie, I understand? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And your brother Wasmosa (phonetic). 19 A: Wasmosay (phonetic). 20 Q: Wasmosay. 21 A: Wasmosay. 22 Q: I'm sorry, would you say again? 23 A: Wasmosay. 24 Q: Thank you. You're the eldest of -- 25 of your siblings?
1021 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I understand that you are 3 currently in a relationship. Your partner is here today? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you have three (3) children? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Anthony, Taylor, and Abraham? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Your mother's 10 grandparents were originally from Stoney Point; that's 11 correct, is it? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Your grandfather is the late Abraham 14 George? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: We understand that he passed away in 17 2000, and that he's buried at the Stoney Point graveyard? 18 A: Yes, in the cemetery. 19 Q: Cemetery. Your grandfather, Abraham, 20 also was known by another name? 21 A: Yes, Hamster. 22 Q: And your grandmother was Elsie 23 George? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I understand she presently
1031 resides at the Stoney Point First Nation? 2 A: Yes, Stoney Point First Nation. 3 Q: All right. Your father's father is - 4 - was the late Clarence Plain? 5 A: Yes, he raised him. Yes, he raised 6 him as his son. 7 Q: Okay. And you also are sometimes 8 known by the nickname Buzz? 9 A: Yeah, sometimes. 10 Q: Okay. I just want to take you back 11 to before 1993, if I could, Mr. Plain. You recall your 12 grandfather, Abraham George, talking to you about the 13 lands that were made into CFB Ipperwash? 14 A: I remember down at his place in 15 Kettle Point when he used to live down there and hearing 16 all the explosions -- explosions and bombs and stuff 17 going on up there and -- and stuff like that, yeah. 18 And he -- that's his land there. It's our 19 land. 20 Q: Okay. Is that something that he told 21 you, Mr. Plain, that that was your land, that all these 22 bombs and explosions were going off on? 23 A: I don't -- I don't really remember -- 24 recall, because it was a long time ago. 25 Q: All right. Did he mention to you --
1041 and I just take it from -- from your comment that that 2 was his land, that that's something that you would have 3 learned from him? 4 A: I learned that from -- from just 5 hearing, yes. 6 Q: Okay, from -- from your grandfather 7 and others, then? Is that fair? 8 A: I don't -- I don't really remember 9 the stories that my grandfather told me. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I don't remember. I don't recall. 12 Q: You would have been told that this 13 was Stoney Point lands, then, from others, perhaps your 14 mother and others? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And in 1990 -- first of 17 all I should ask you, do -- you knew an individual by the 18 name of Dan George? 19 A: Yes, my uncle. 20 Q: All right. And in 1990 -- 21 A: My -- my great-uncle, sorry. My 22 great-uncle. 23 Q: Okay. You attended his -- his 24 funeral in any event in 1990? 25 A: Yes.
1051 Q: And that was at the Stoney Point 2 cemetery. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Was there anything that - 5 - that was -- that sticks out in your mind about that 6 particular funeral? 7 A: Today, yes, because it was the first 8 burial at the un-ceded territory since it was stolen in 9 1942. 10 Q: Okay. And in going forward then, to 11 1993 and '94, you came to learn about the occupation of 12 what has been -- what's known as, at least in these 13 proceedings and has been referred to as the Army camp? 14 A: Can you repeat that question? 15 Q: Okay. Oh let me -- let me back up. 16 First of all, the -- the lands that are referred to as 17 the Army camp, I understand that you refer to them and 18 would prefer to refer to that as Aazhoodena. 19 A: Aazhoodena or Stoney Point First 20 Nation. 21 Q: All right. So when those lands were 22 first occupied in 1994, that is along the range area, I 23 understand that you weren't involved in that? 24 A: '93 you mean? 25 Q: Oh, pardon me, in '93. Thank you.
1061 A: Yes, I was not involved, but I went 2 there afterwards. 3 Q: Okay. And you would have visited 4 there from time to time? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you would have known -- or you 7 would have visited in -- what -- you had relatives there, 8 for example? 9 A: Yes, right. 10 Q: There's a map in front of you, Mr. 11 George, the one just on the top. It's been marked as P- 12 40 in these proceedings and we're just going to put that 13 up on the screen momentarily. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: There's also a laser pointer just 18 beside you, Mr. Plain. 19 A: This thing? 20 Q: Laser pointer, yes. I wonder if you 21 could, just for the benefit of all of us, point out on 22 that particular map, where it is that you would have 23 visited from time to time, again, in the -- the spring 24 and summer of '93. 25 A: '93? It was the -- the main Camp.
1071 It was right around there somewhere, close -- close to 2 the bush. 3 Q: All right. And when you say, "close 4 to the bush," we also heard that the area just to the 5 north of that was also heavily wooded. 6 A: Yes, the bushline is somewhere -- 7 somewhere around here. I don't -- I don't really know 8 where it is, exactly. Somewhere around there and the 9 Camp was right -- right close to the bush. 10 Q: Fair enough. And whose camp would 11 you stay at when you went to visit there from time to 12 time? 13 A: At -- at that Camp -- at the Camp? 14 In my cousin Marlin's trailer. 15 Q: That would be Marlin Simon? 16 A: Yes, Marlin Simon. 17 Q: All right. We were also told that, 18 perhaps, Mr. Simon earlier had a tent. Would you visit 19 him when he was still living in a tent? I just noted 20 that you said you would stay in his trailer. 21 A: I don't -- I don't really recall 22 because it was a long time ago, but I remember staying in 23 his trailer. 24 Q: Okay. And I understand that you had 25 lived in Thedford in 1993 and early '94?
1081 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, would Thedford be about five (5) 3 or six (6) miles from that or eight (8) or nine (9) 4 kilometres from the area that you -- you just referred us 5 to? 6 A: Probably around there. 7 Q: And I also understand, Mr. Plain, 8 that you were attending school in Sarnia at the time? 9 A: Yes. Alexander Mackenzie Secondary 10 School. 11 Q: Okay. I gather you would have 12 completed that at some point? 13 A: No. No, I just need one (1) more 14 credit for my diploma. 15 Q: All right. And when you first 16 attended, then, to -- to the area that you've described 17 as the main Camp to stay with your cousin and visit 18 there, what was the purpose of going there? 19 What was the purpose of the people being 20 there as far as you knew? 21 A: To -- to move home. To move home to 22 our -- to our land. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: Because the -- the Government wasn't 25 -- wasn't obviously doing what they said they were going
1091 to do, giving the land back after they took it. 2 Q: All right. And do you know, Mr. 3 Plain, whether there -- there had been any efforts of 4 obtaining the land back, as you put it, other than moving 5 onto the land. 6 Do you know whether there was any other 7 things that were done? Were there any discussions, for 8 example? 9 A: I don't -- I don't know, but I 10 remember seeing my Uncle Dan and my Aunt Melva on the -- 11 the corner -- the corner right around here. 12 Q: Okay. You're indicating an -- an 13 area on the corner of Army Camp Road and Highway 21? 14 A: Yes, they were -- they were 15 protesting there a while ago. I seen it in the paper. 16 Q: All right. So, as far as -- as far 17 as you were concerned, it was -- the people were there to 18 come home. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And can you tell us what 21 the mood was when you were visiting there from time to 22 time in '93/94? 23 A: People were -- people were happy to 24 be home and stuff like that, like, doing stuff. 25 Q: And I gather the military was still
1101 around? 2 A: Yes, the military. 3 Q: You would have seen Range Patrols 4 from time to time. We've heard other evidence of that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And did you have any involvement with 7 them or did you see anybody have any involvement with 8 Range Patrol? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. And in the summer of 1995, you 11 were aware that the, what's called the built-up area, was 12 moved in on? 13 A: Can you repeat that question? 14 Q: In -- on the 29th of July in 1995, 15 the people that were camped on the land had moved into 16 the barracks area; do you remember that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And were you part of that? 19 A: I was a part of it, not a part of the 20 -- the main -- I don't know, the main group of people 21 went in through with the bus or something over here, and 22 we came around this way somewhere, back through the back 23 way. 24 Q: All right. You are indicating that 25 the main group of people that moved in, would have come
1111 in from the road at the north end of the barracks 2 adjacent to Army Camp Road? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And who did you come in 5 with, Mr. Plain? 6 A: I was with Marlin. 7 Q: And, again, that's Marlin Simon? 8 A: Yeah, Marlin Simon. 9 Q: And others? 10 A: There was others in the car, but I 11 don't recall who it was. 12 Q: All right. And can you tell us what 13 you seen and what you did once you arrived, then, at the 14 barracks area or the built-up area, as it's been referred 15 to? 16 A: We're -- we're coming down this road 17 here and there was a -- a spike belt right around here 18 somewhere. We grabbed it, threw it in the trunk and then 19 we drove back down here and threw it back in the bush 20 somewhere. And by the time we got back, that's when 21 everybody was already over there by the gate house. 22 Q: All right. And just for the record, 23 you're indicating that there was a spike belt somewhere 24 on the -- about the eastern edge of the built-up area? 25 A: Yes, it was -- it was around here
1121 somewhere. 2 Q: And, again, for the record, you 3 indicated that that belt was then transported and thrown 4 somewhere north of the rifle range; is that -- is that 5 accurate? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And by the time you arrived 8 then, back at the built-up area, your indication is that 9 everyone was around the gate, the front gate area? 10 A: That's where I remember people were, 11 yes. 12 Q: Okay. What else do you remember? Do 13 you remember what was going on...? 14 A: I remember my cousin Harley, had 15 pepper spray or something on -- all over his face. 16 Q: This is Harley George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And do you know what happened 19 to him? 20 A: No, other -- other than he had pepper 21 spray on him; I don't know. 22 Q: You don't know how that got on him? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Nobody told you? 25 A: I don't recall anybody telling me.
1131 Q: Okay. Did you see any military 2 personnel around at that point? 3 A: No, not personally, no, I didn't see 4 any. 5 Q: Okay. And do you have any 6 recollection of whether they had left or not? That is, 7 left the -- the built-up area? 8 A: No, no I don't recall. 9 Q: And once you joined everybody around 10 the gate area, what do you remember happening after that, 11 Mr. Plain? 12 A: People were just standing around, 13 standing around, I don't know, just standing around, just 14 because, I don't know. 15 Q: All right. We've also heard that 16 there had been meetings between various military 17 personnel, perhaps a -- a Mr. Crawford and some -- some 18 of the people from -- from Stoney Point, at the Army 19 Barracks, where they were given instruction on 20 maintenance and operation of the infrastructure? 21 Do you know anything about that, Mr. 22 Plain? 23 A: I don't have any knowledge of that 24 except for what I seen in -- in the newspaper when -- 25 when they -- when they were showing Dudley how to work
1141 the -- the boilers and -- I mean the stoves and the 2 stuff in the kitchen. They showed him how to relight the 3 pilots. 4 Q: All right. But you don't -- you 5 weren't aware that there had been meetings that had taken 6 place, for example? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. Is there anything else 9 that you can tell us, Mr. -- Mr. Plain, about the -- that 10 occasion at the built-up area in -- in 1995 -- July 29? 11 A: Not from my personal knowledge, no. 12 Q: Did you end up taking residence there 13 at that point or at some later time? 14 A: I stayed there, yes. Yes. 15 Q: And where did -- where did you stay? 16 A: I stayed in -- in one (1) of the 17 buildings, or a few of the buildings. 18 Q: There's a map up on the -- up on the 19 big screen, I believe it's one similar to the one you 20 have in front of you. 21 Can you just indicate with the laser 22 pointer where it is that you would have taken up 23 residence? P-41 for the record, Mr. Commissioner. 24 A: I think we stayed in -- in this 25 building here, a few -- me and a few of my cousins stayed
1151 there -- 2 Q: Okay. Does that building have a 3 name? 4 A: -- for a few nights. No, no, it was 5 just a -- just a building. 6 Q: All right. Did you take up permanent 7 residence there and, if so, where? 8 A: No, I -- I didn't -- I didn't then, 9 no. I just -- we just stayed there for a couple of 10 nights. Didn't -- didn't stay there permanently. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Worme, let us know 12 the number of the building. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: Is there -- is there a number on that 16 building, Mr. Plain? Perhaps if you can read that into 17 the record for us? 18 A: It says, "Building 48." 19 Q: All right. And as I understand, you 20 just stayed there for a couple of days? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And I take it you would 23 have then moved back to -- you were -- you were living 24 then in Sarnia or were you living in -- in Thedford at 25 that point?
1161 A: I was -- I was living in Sarnia at 2 that point. 3 Q: I want to take you, then, to 4 September of 1995, Mr. Plain. You're aware that -- that 5 there was then a movement into the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And you were sixteen (16) 8 years of age at that time? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And you were going to 11 school in Sarnia. 12 A: Sarnia, yes. Alexander Mackenzie. 13 Q: All right. And how was it that you 14 found out about the entry into -- into the Park? 15 A: I don't -- I don't recall. I think I 16 might have talked to my mother. 17 Q: All right. And you were living in 18 Sarnia at your father's residence, as I understand? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And -- and tell us what 21 happened next as far as you can recall? 22 A: I -- I got done school that day and 23 rode the bus to Thedford to my mother's place and then I 24 walked -- walked down to the -- Stoney Point from there. 25 Q: Okay. And I'm assuming you caught
1171 the bus after school? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Is there a school bus 4 that would run, then, to Thedford? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And do you recall whether 7 you would have walked immediately after being dropped off 8 after school to the Park? 9 A: I'm pretty sure I did, but I can't 10 really recall. 11 Q: And that -- and that's fair enough. 12 We've already -- you've already indicated that it's -- 13 it's a fairly long walk. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And if you walked that distance 16 today, how long might it take you? 17 A: I have no idea. 18 Q: It depends if you walk slow or fast, 19 I'm sure. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. When you first arrived at 22 -- at the Park, then, Mr. Plain, what did you see, what 23 did you do? 24 A: The earliest recollection I have is 25 when we were out by the road and -- and Booper (phonetic)
1181 came up in his car and he was asking what was going on 2 and my uncle was giving him -- giving him trouble for 3 putting that stuff in the paper that he put in there. 4 Q: And when you say, "your uncle," 5 you're referring to Stewart George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yeah. And when you referred to 8 Booper, you're referring to Gerald George? 9 A: Gerald George. 10 Q: There's a map right behind you, Mr. 11 Plain, right behind you which purports to be the 12 intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive. 13 Do you recognize that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And can you tell me where you were or 16 -- first of all do you see the -- the area that's marked 17 as the turnstile? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you'll agree with me that there 20 was a fence there at -- at that time in September of '95? 21 A: Yes, a fence. Hmm hmm. 22 Q: And can you tell me where you were 23 when you observed this incident between Gerald George and 24 your Uncle Stewart? 25 A: It must have been -- it must have
1191 been around -- around here somewhere. 2 Q: Okay and you're indicating more on 3 Army Camp Road as opposed to East Parkway Drive, is that 4 -- is that fair? 5 A: Yeah, somewhere -- somewhere right 6 around here. 7 Q: Right. Where were you standing when 8 you observed this? 9 A: I don't recall. It was -- it was a 10 long time ago. I don't recall the exact details where I 11 was standing here and there, like, I don't recall. 12 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Tell us, then, 13 what you were going to tell us before I interrupted you? 14 A: What's that? 15 Q: About the incident. Tell us about 16 the incident. 17 A: I already did. 18 Q: Well, I wonder if you could provide 19 more detail? I think you've told us that your uncle was 20 giving Gerald George -- giving him hell or something. 21 I'm not sure what the exact words are, about something 22 he'd wrote in the paper. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: What happens from there? 25 A: He went -- he went down the road.
1201 Gerald George -- Booper went down the road. 2 Q: All right. Did you see or hear 3 anything else happen after Gerald George went down the 4 road? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Did you -- did you hear whether or 7 not Gerald George may have said anything to your uncle 8 Stuart? 9 A: My -- may have said anything? 10 Q: Yeah, did you hear whether he said 11 anything to your uncle Stewart? 12 A: Yeah, yeah I heard something. 13 Q: Can you tell us what it was you 14 heard? 15 A: He -- he said that he would get out 16 of the car and kick his ass if he didn't have all the 17 back up. 18 Q: All right. This is words that you 19 attribute to Gerald George? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Right. Go ahead. What happens then? 22 A: And then he started to drive away. 23 And I think -- I think my uncle hit him with a rock -- 24 his car. Hit his car with a rock. 25 Q: All right. Anything else that you
1211 can recall? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Well, he -- he took off kind of 6 angry, yes. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Might have said something. 9 Q: Okay. When you were standing around 10 there and you -- and you made this observation, Mr. 11 Plain, were you with other people? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Do you know how many other people and 14 who they might be? 15 A: No I don't -- I don't recall. I 16 don't recall who was there and how many people was there. 17 Q: All right. Can you recall whether 18 any of those people were carrying anything by way of 19 sticks or bats or any such -- any such items? 20 A: No, I don't recall. I don't think 21 so, no. Not -- not from my memory. 22 Q: All right. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1221 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Commissioner, I -- 2 I realize it's a little bit early but I also recognize we 3 started promptly at 9:00 a.m. this morning and I -- I am 4 going to move into the actual incident and I'm wondering 5 whether you want me to continue for another ten (10) 6 minutes or so or whether we would take the lunch break 7 now and perhaps reconvene a bit earlier. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's your 9 preference? 10 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm in -- I'm in your 11 hands. The problem is, is I may not get too far before 12 we're interrupted, and I guess if I spoke my preference, 13 it would be to -- to carry on after lunch. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Then, 15 let's take an early lunch break. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's now ten 18 (10) to 12:00. Why don't we adjourn until 1:00 -- we've 19 been adjourning for an hour and a quarter, 1:05, is that 20 all right? 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, sir. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 23 adjourned until 1:05. 24 25 --- Upon adjourning at 11:51 a.m.
1231 --- Upon resuming at 1:08 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed. Please be seated. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: So, we'll proceed 6 then, Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Well, Mr. Plain, we left off just 11 before the break on the evening of September the 6th of 12 1995. Do you recall that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And you had told us about 15 an incident between Gerald George and Stewart George and 16 I think you had completed advising us of the details of 17 that incident. 18 A: Well, yeah, almost. 19 Q: Okay. Is there anything that you 20 wanted to add to that? 21 A: Maybe, what the heck was it? I don't 22 -- I don't recall anybody having sticks or anything like 23 that -- bats or whatever. 24 Q: All right. But you do recall that 25 you were standing with a number of other individuals and
1241 I think you've indicated on the map behind you the 2 general area of where you recall standing around. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. I wonder if you can go 5 ahead and tell us then what your next recollection is 6 about that day and, in particular, the evening of 7 September the 6th, 1995? 8 A: Starting when? 9 Q: Well, starting after the incident 10 that you've just told us about between Gerald George and 11 your Uncle Stewart. 12 A: I don't -- I don't really recall 13 because it was a long time ago. I just -- I just recall 14 the -- when the -- when the police were walking up there 15 with their shields -- hitting their shields and charging 16 us, whatever they were doing. 17 Q: All right. You had -- 18 A: -- charging at us. 19 Q: I'm sorry? 20 A: Charging at us. 21 Q: Okay. And just before we get there, 22 you had indicated at least in -- on some earlier 23 occasion, something about seeing a Suburban or recalling 24 something about a white Suburban? 25 A: Yeah, I seen a white Suburban pull up
1251 and -- and stop and then leave again. 2 Q: Okay. And where did it pull up and 3 stop before it left again, if you could just indicate on 4 the map behind you? 5 A: It -- it came up this way and -- 6 Q: You're indicating northbound on Army 7 Camp Road. 8 A: -- yes, and -- and it probably 9 stopped right around here -- somewhere right around there 10 or here. Somewhere around there. Maybe over here. I 11 don't really recall, I just know I remember seeing it. I 12 don't recall exactly where. 13 Q: Did you -- do you recall seeing 14 whether anybody exited or entered the vehicle? 15 A: No. I don't know. I don't remember 16 seeing anybody. 17 Q: And the -- and the vehicle then 18 proceeded down the roadway -- down East -- East Parkway 19 Drive? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And you mentioned 22 something about then seeing the police officers banging 23 their shields and rushing at you. Would you tell us 24 about that, please? 25 A: Yeah, that's the -- that's the next
1261 thing I remember is when -- when the police were -- were 2 banging their shields and running at us and running back. 3 I don't -- I don't really remember -- remember too good, 4 because it was a long time ago, nine (9) -- 5 Q: I understand -- 6 A: years ago when this Inquiry should 7 have happened, in '95. 8 Q: I understand that. And do you know 9 the time of day that, first of all when you seen the 10 Suburban what time of day that might have been? 11 A: No, I don't remember. It was during 12 the night. 13 Q: So it was dark out? 14 A: Yes, it was dark. 15 Q: And do you recall if there were any 16 lights around, any street lights, or how was the area 17 illuminated, if it was? 18 A: I don't recall. 19 Q: When the police were rushing at you, 20 as you've indicated, can you indicate on the map behind 21 you where it was that you recall being when you seen this 22 occurring? 23 A: Well, from what I remember, I 24 remember being -- being down over this way. 25 Q: You're indicating at the -- more at
1271 the top of the diagram towards the lake? 2 A: Yeah, it was probably actually -- it 3 was further up than this map goes. I'm pretty sure where 4 I was. 5 Q: All right. And where were -- where 6 were the police at that time? 7 A: They were -- they were all -- all 8 over along here, lined up. 9 Q: Okay. And you're indicating lined up 10 on the -- would that be the western side of what has been 11 described as the sandy parking lot? 12 A: Yes, the sandy parking lot there, 13 yes. 14 Q: And when you say they were lined up 15 there, or the police were lined up there, how many police 16 were there? How many do you recall? 17 A: I don't know an exact number. I just 18 know there was really lots of them. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And they were all banging their 21 shields. 22 Q: All right. Can you tell us how that 23 -- how that affected you? 24 A: I was scared. I was scared because I 25 was young, I am young still.
1281 Q: All right. Now you had indicated 2 that you were standing -- I gather you would have been 3 standing inside what -- what's been called the Park. 4 A: Yes, I was standing right about, well 5 just a little bit above them -- how far this map goes 6 here. 7 Q: All right. Do you recall who you 8 were standing with? 9 A: I remember Burger -- Burger beside me 10 on my right. 11 Q: And Burger is Stacey George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Do you recall anybody 14 else around you? 15 A: No. I know there was people -- 16 people this -- this way but I don't -- I don't recall who 17 was beside me on that side, I just remember Burger was to 18 the right of me. 19 Q: And you've indicated down the inside 20 of the fence line, is that fair? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And do you recall how many people 23 were standing, then, inside the fence line? 24 A: No, I don't recall how many people 25 were there. It was a long time ago. I don't remember.
1291 Q: All right. Did you have any -- did - 2 - or come to any conclusion about whether there were more 3 people inside the fence line or whether there were more 4 police lined up outside? 5 Or can you tell us? 6 A: Can you ask me that question again, 7 what was that? 8 Q: Was there more people inside the Park 9 or were there more police outside of -- lined up, as you 10 had indicated to us? Do you know? 11 A: I don't know. I don't know, I -- 12 there was -- there was women and children in the Park 13 back over -- back over here places and there was the guys 14 or whoever was all lined up here. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And... 17 Q: Did you have anything in your hands 18 by way of, well, anything in your hands? Let me ask you 19 that, first of all. 20 A: Yes, I had a bat. 21 Q: Okay. And where did you get the bat 22 from? 23 A: I don't recall where I got it. I 24 just remember that I had it. 25 Q: Okay. Did you have occasion to use
1301 that bat? 2 A: No, no. But I would have used it if 3 -- if the police would have came at me, but they were -- 4 they were just sitting there waiting for me to come 5 towards them but I wasn't going to attack them. 6 Q: And when you say "come towards them" 7 do you mean outside of the fence? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Do you know how many 10 times the police rushed at you, banging their shields as 11 you've described? 12 A: I don't -- I don't remember, no. 13 Twice as far as I can remember, but from reading that SIU 14 report it says three (3) times. 15 Q: Okay. And did -- and when you read 16 in the SIU report where it says three (3) times, did that 17 help you at all in refreshing your memory? 18 A: No, because I don't -- I don't 19 remember, I don't recall, it was a long time ago. 20 Q: Okay. Can you tell us what the next 21 thing is that you do remember? 22 A: I remember Bernard yelling -- yelling 23 at the police officers to -- that they don't have to do 24 that, they don't have to do what they're doing, and they 25 don't have to do that, they were -- that they were the
1311 ones trespassing on our grandfather's graves. 2 Q: Okay. This is Cecil Bernard George? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And when he's saying this, can you -- 5 do you recall where he was located, where was he when he 6 was saying these words? 7 A: He was probably somewhere in this 8 area. 9 Q: And am I correct in -- in saying that 10 you were pointing to an area just in front of the fence, 11 that is to say, in the -- in the sandy parking lot? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether Cecil 14 Bernard George was holding anything when he was saying 15 these words? 16 A: No, I don't -- I don't remember 17 seeing him with anything. 18 Q: Can you tell us what you recall next? 19 A: After -- after Bernard was yelling 20 like that, that's when the police charged at -- at the -- 21 at the fence, the fence line or at us. 22 Q: Okay. And what happens? 23 A: They must have -- they must have 24 grabbed him or something, I don't -- I don't remember 25 seeing -- I didn't see that. Some -- somewhere along the
1321 line there, people started fighting, people started 2 fighting. It must have been -- it must have been because 3 Bernard was getting beat up. But I don't -- I don't 4 remember seeing it, because I was -- I was down over 5 here. 6 Q: You're indicating the position you 7 were at earlier, closer to the Lake? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: But when the fight -- when the fight 11 started, I went -- I went this way, towards the middle. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: I went towards the middle there and I 14 seen -- I seen Buck, then he -- and he asked me for -- 15 for the bat that I had and I gave it to him. 16 Q: That's Buck Doxtator? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Go ahead. What happens? 19 A: And then... 20 Q: Do you know what Buck Doxtator did 21 with the -- the bat that he had asked you for and you 22 gave him? 23 A: I don't know, I think he threw it, 24 but I don't -- I don't remember seeing him, I don't -- I 25 never seen it, I think he threw it though.
1331 Q: All right. What's the next thing you 2 remember, Dale -- Mr. Plain? 3 A: I remember -- I remember going back - 4 - going back this way somewhere. 5 Q: You're indicating into the Park? 6 A: This way somewhere, yes, somewhere 7 that way and -- and then I -- I seen these two -- two (2) 8 ladies standing there and they told me to go back and 9 help those men fight. So I went back. I went back that 10 way and then that's when I heard the firecrackers going 11 off. 12 Q: Let me just stop you there for a 13 moment. When you say you went back in towards -- towards 14 -- into the Park, and you seen two (2) ladies, do you 15 know who those ladies were? 16 A: It looked -- it looked like my Aunt 17 Melva, but I don't know if she was there, I don't think 18 so. 19 Q: All right. And this was in the dark, 20 you've indicated? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You don't recall whether there was 23 any light from, perhaps the Park store or anything like 24 that? 25 A: No, I don't recall.
1341 Q: Okay. And these two (2) women told 2 you to go back and help those men? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Or did you say, go and help those men 5 fight, is that what you had said? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: So you go back to -- where do you get 8 to, in terms of going back to help those men fight when 9 you hear what you've described as the firecrackers? 10 A: I was -- it must have been somewhere 11 around here. 12 Q: You're indicating next, or near the 13 turnstile? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Go ahead and describe for us then, 16 what happened. 17 A: I remember -- I remember hearing the 18 -- the firecrackers and then the bullets; the bullets 19 were whizzing by. The bullets were whizzing by my head, 20 so I dove behind the cement -- cement block there. 21 Q: And where was the cement block 22 located? 23 A: Somewhere around -- around there. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Just -- just to the left of the
1351 turnstile. 2 Q: All right. Just to the north of the 3 turnstile. Is that fair? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. So you dove behind the 6 cement block and what's happening, Mr. Plain? 7 A: Bullets are flying over the -- over 8 the top of the cement block when I was behind it. 9 Q: Okay. Can you describe how that made 10 you feel? 11 A: Made me scared. Made me scared. 12 Q: Can you tell us what you next saw or 13 heard? 14 A: I think I remember hearing the gears 15 grinding on the bus when it was trying to reverse. 16 Q: Did you see where the bus was when 17 its gears were grinding, trying to reverse? 18 A: The bus was -- was on the road. It 19 was out on the road there. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I don't -- I don't remember exactly 22 where, though, I just remember seeing it on the road. 23 Q: You've indicated on East Parkway 24 Drive, though, with the pointer just now, is that your 25 recollection or are you just indicating a general area?
1361 A: It was -- it was on the road 2 somewhere. I don't -- I don't know where. I know -- I 3 know it was on the -- the tarmac, though, or the cement. 4 Q: Okay. And what happens after that? 5 A: I think that was -- that was before 6 the bullets -- the bullets started -- started flying, 7 because -- 8 Q: Okay. Mr. Plain, did you see, for 9 example, whether or not the school bus came in contact 10 with anything such as a garbage container? 11 A: I think I remember seeing it getting 12 pushed out of the way. 13 Q: All right. I -- and I gather from 14 what you're saying that you're not entirely clear, is 15 that fair? 16 A: No, my -- my memory is not clear 17 because it was 1995. Can you people remember what you 18 done in '95? 19 I -- because -- 20 Q: Well, I'm sure I can't, but I -- I 21 know that we have to ask you these questions and we'll 22 ask you simply to do the best that you can, if you would, 23 please. And so what's the next thing that happens? 24 A: That was -- I remember heading -- 25 heading back this way after -- after the bullets were --
1371 were flying and I got -- I got in the car -- I got in the 2 car of Mike Cloud's brother, Beaner (phonetic), and then 3 I got a ride with him up to the built-up area. 4 Q: Was there anybody else in -- you 5 called him, Beaner? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Were you and -- was there 8 anybody else in Beaner's vehicle? 9 A: Yes, there was all kinds of women and 10 children. 11 Q: Okay. Do you remember who those 12 women and children were at this time? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Do you remember how many of them 15 there might have been in Beaner's vehicle? 16 A: More than -- more than would be 17 allowed to drive on the road, like, it was packed -- a 18 lot of people in there. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Like, more than the seatbelts would 21 hold. A lot of -- there was a lot of people in there -- 22 a lot of women and children. 23 Q: And what were those people doing, Mr. 24 Plain? 25 A: They were scared -- scared for their
1381 lives, like I was. 2 Q: Okay. When you were in this, I think 3 you've described it as the fight with the police, were 4 you involved in any kind of physical altercation with any 5 police officers? 6 A: No. No, I was -- after the fight 7 broke out, I was right about -- I wasn't on the outside 8 of the -- the fence there and the police were still here 9 and there was two (2) police right here, somewhere -- 10 somewhere around there. 11 And I was there and they were -- they were 12 just standing there waiting for me to attack them. But I 13 wasn't going to attack them. I was waiting for them to 14 attack me. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: But -- but they didn't attack me so I 17 didn't hit them and they didn't hit me. We just stood 18 there. 19 Q: Okay. So after you got in Beaner's 20 vehicle with these other people, is your evidence, then, 21 that you go back to the -- to the camp, that is to the 22 built-up area? 23 A: Yes, back up to the built-up area. 24 Q: And what do you do when you're back 25 there, Mr. Plain?
1391 A: I go off to Marlin's place and tell 2 him -- tell him that the police are shooting at us. 3 Q: All right. And then what happens? 4 A: And then Marlin, he went to go back 5 down there, but I said I was going to go and get some 6 more people to go back down there. 7 Q: When you say "back down there" you 8 mean to the Park? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Right. And what did you do to get 11 more people to go back to the Park? 12 A: I went down the -- down the road and 13 knocked on a door -- doors, stopped at ... 14 Q: Were you successful in getting other 15 people to -- to go to the Park? 16 A: Just Marlin. Just Marlin went, 17 'cause the other person I went and seen didn't -- didn't 18 want to go down there, didn't want anything to do with 19 it. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I don't know why. 22 Q: All right. What's the next thing you 23 remember, Mr. Plain? 24 A: The next thing I remember after that 25 is going -- going down the road in my Uncle Judas' red
1401 Nova and -- and we were stopped at Ravenswood -- 2 Ravenswood Road there, the twelfth concession or whatever 3 it is. 4 Q: All right. When you say "going down 5 the road" I gather you're on Highway 21. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you're in your Uncle Judas' red 8 Nova. Is he operating it? 9 A: No, Gina. Gina George. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And the police were -- they stopped 12 us and she was giving them trouble because -- because 13 they shot her son. 14 Q: All right. What happens then? 15 A: They let us through, 'cause the car 16 was full of women and children. And we went down to my 17 grandmothers and we stayed there overnight. 18 Q: Who was your grandmother? That would 19 be -- you've told us about her earlier? 20 A: Yes, Maria Elsie (phonetic). 21 Q: All right. And she lived in Kettle 22 Point? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that's where you stayed? 25 A: Yes.
1411 Q: What happens after that, Mr. Plain? 2 A: There was a lot of -- there was a lot 3 of people there. My aunties and my grandma, a lot of 4 people there. 5 Q: At your grandmother's place? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Go ahead. 12 A: And then I just -- I went to sleep 13 because I had to sleep, 'cause I was tired. 14 Q: Okay. And then on the next day, on 15 September the 7th, we're told that there were a number of 16 people that went from Kettle Point to Stoney Point. 17 Were you involved with them? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And can you tell us about that? 20 A: Alls I remember is there was a lot of 21 -- a lot of people walking up there from Kettle Point to 22 Stoney Point and there was a lot of people at -- at the 23 gatehouse there, when everybody got there from Kettle 24 Point. 25 And I don't -- I don't remember how -- how
1421 we got down to the -- down to the Park -- the command 2 post or whatever you want to call it, where -- wherever 3 they had that set up. 4 Q: This would be the MNR park further 5 down East Parkway Drive? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Can you tell us what happened 8 when you got there? 9 A: The police were -- were walking 10 around or running around with their guns, long rifles and 11 they seen the movie cameras from the -- Global or the TV 12 cameras or whatever they were and the police started 13 running around and they peeled out real fast. 14 Q: Okay. Did you do anything when they 15 pealed out real fast? 16 A: I kicked the van. I kicked the St. 17 John's Ambulance van. 18 Q: Was this a vehicle that was leaving? 19 A: No, it was left there. 20 Q: Okay. And can you tell us why you 21 kicked the St. Ambulance -- or St. John Ambulance van? 22 A: Because I was angry. I was angry 23 that they never -- they never helped. They didn't help 24 take Dudley to the hospital. 25 Q: Okay. At some point in time, you
1431 learned that Dudley George had, in fact, died. 2 A: Yes. I don't -- I don't really 3 recall when the exact time was or nothing, but I -- I 4 knew. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I found out. 7 Q: And just going back to the -- to the 8 day previous, do you recall seeing any helicopters around 9 or any such thing? 10 A: No. No, there was no helicopters 11 when I was there. 12 Q: Did you -- 13 A: From -- 14 Q: I'm sorry, go ahead, Mr. Plain. 15 A: From the videos that I seen -- seen 16 here when I was sitting in the audience, I seen -- I seen 17 that there was helicopters out, but it was before the 18 time that I got there. 19 Q: All right. So, it's nothing that -- 20 that you would have witnessed? 21 A: No, I didn't see any. 22 Q: You described a number of -- of 23 people standing around when Gerald George came up and the 24 altercation between Gerald and your Uncle Stewart. And 25 you've described a number of people standing inside the
1441 fence line of the Park, facing off, if I can put it that 2 way, against the police. 3 Can you tell us whether there was any 4 firearms inside the Park that you would have seen? 5 A: Can you repeat that question? 6 Q: Did you see anybody with firearms 7 inside the Park? 8 A: No, you said something about the 9 incident with Gerald George first. 10 Q: Yeah, I'm -- well, of the people that 11 were standing around when Gerald George drove up, did you 12 see whether there was any firearms around at that time? 13 A: No, there was no firearms. 14 Q: And among the people that were lined 15 up inside the Park, did you see anybody with firearms at 16 that time? 17 A: No, there was no firearms -- 18 Q: All right. 19 A: -- that I clearly remember. 20 Q: Okay. Did you see the bus -- I think 21 you've told us that you seem to recall the bus pushing 22 the garbage container out of the way. 23 Do you have any actual recollection of the 24 bus moving down East Parkway Drive? 25 A: No. No, because that was when the
1451 fighting was going on. 2 Q: Okay. What about -- we were also 3 told that there was another vehicle that drove either 4 behind or adjacent to the bus. 5 Do you have any recollection of anything 6 like that? 7 A: I don't recall seeing it. There was 8 -- there was a lot of commotion going on. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: A lot of people were -- were 11 fighting; a lot of people were moving around, but I -- 12 but I know -- I know that it -- a vehicle did go out 13 there and -- because I seen the bullet holes in the -- 14 the car. 15 Q: Okay. And it's something that you 16 probably learned later. You don't have an independent 17 recall of that today? 18 A: No, I don't -- I don't recall seeing 19 the car going out. 20 Q: All right. And just so I'm clear, 21 Mr. Plain, you don't have any independent recollection 22 of the bus going out either. Is that fair? 23 A: Like I said, it was -- there was a 24 lot of commotion going on and that -- that was when the 25 fight was happening.
1461 Q: Sorry. 2 A: I don't -- I don't recall. 3 Q: All right. So you've described then, 4 the -- the events of September the 7th going up to the 5 MNR park, down East Parkway Drive, kicking a St. John's 6 Ambulance van because you were angry -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- that the police had -- had left. 9 Is there anything that you can add beyond that, that you 10 can recall? 11 A: I was -- I was angry because the St. 12 John's Ambulance didn't help Dudley. 13 Q: All right. What's the next thing 14 that you can tell us about, Mr. Plain? 15 A: I was angry because the police done 16 what they done, too, shooting at us unarmed people just 17 trying to -- trying to protect our -- our grandfathers' 18 graves and grandmothers. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: And uncles and aunties and little -- 21 little babies buried there. 22 Q: Did you go to Dudley George's 23 funeral? 24 A: No, I couldn't make it and I felt -- 25 I feel bad even to this day because I couldn't make it.
1471 Q: You know you were represented there 2 by your -- by your mother? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And others. Okay. Is there anything 5 else, Mr. Plain, that you can add to what you've already 6 told us? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: No. No. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, then, Mr. 12 Plain. Those are all my questions, Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm going to 18 ask now if there's anybody who wishes to cross-examine 19 this witness to indicate by standing up, please. Mr. 20 Roland, on behalf of the OPPA. How long do you 21 anticipate you might be? 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: Not too long, maybe half 23 an hour. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 25 should get right into it, then.
1481 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 3 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Plain, I gather 4 that you are also known as Dale George from time to time? 5 A: Yes, Dale George-Plain. 6 Q: Yes. And you're -- and sometimes 7 you're referred to as Dale Plain, sometimes Dale George 8 and sometimes Dale George-Plain? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: That's what it says on my birth 12 certificate. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: I went and got it and it came back 15 Dale Timothy and George as my middle name and Plain is my 16 last. 17 Q: Yes. There's no other Dale, though, 18 is there that you know of that is a Stony or Kettle 19 Pointer beside you? You're the only Dale? 20 A: Dale? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Kettle or Stony Pointer? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: I don't know if there's any more 25 Dales down in Kettle Point, but I'm pretty sure --
1491 Q: You're the only one you're aware of 2 at any point. 3 A: I'm pretty sure I am the only one. 4 Q: Okay. Now, I just want to understand 5 your evidence about -- about where you resided in 1995. 6 As I understand your evidence you were, I gather, living 7 elsewhere then at the Army Camp or barracks before July 8 29, '95? 9 A: I refer to it as Stoney Point First 10 Nation, not -- not what you said. 11 Q: All right. Okay, in any event on the 12 -- let's refer to it, then, as Stoney Point First Nation. 13 You were not living there either in the barracks built up 14 area or in the campground before July 29, '95? 15 A: No, I was not living there. 16 Q: Right. And then you moved into the 17 barracks, I gather, shortly after July 29, '95? 18 A: I stayed there, yes. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: I didn't -- I didn't actually reside 21 there because I was living in Sarnia with my father. 22 Q: Okay. And you say you spent a couple 23 of days in Building 48 and was that with your cousin, 24 Marlin Simon? 25 A: No. No, I don't know where Marlin
1501 was staying. He had his own place. 2 Q: Who -- who were you staying with in 3 Building 48? 4 A: I don't recall. Just -- a few of my 5 cousins -- a few of my cousins, I don't recall who they 6 were there. 7 Q: And how many cousins do you have? 8 A: I have about -- a couple thousand. 9 Q: So it's hard to pin down. How many 10 cousins, of those couple of thousand, were living at -- 11 in the barracks in July 29 and thereafter? 12 A: Can you repeat that question? 13 Q: How many of those of those couple of 14 thousand cousins were living in the barracks after July 15 29, '95? 16 A: I have no idea. I don't recall. 17 Q: And you say you lived there for a 18 couple of days. Was that it? You didn't live there 19 beyond a couple of days? 20 A: I stayed -- I was there for the 21 summer. 22 Q: So for the rest of August did you 23 stay there? 24 A: I don't recall. I was around, here 25 and there.
1511 Q: Okay. 2 A: But I know I was there, yes. 3 Q: All right. And did you -- did you 4 meet other people who were in and about the barracks in 5 August of '95, who were not Kettle or Stony Pointers? 6 A: Kettle or Stony Pointers? 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: I don't know who you mean. 9 Q: Well, they were not First Nations 10 people from -- who were either living in the Stoney Point 11 First Nations Reserve or on Kettle Point. We'll call 12 them outsiders. 13 A: Did I -- did I -- 14 Q: Did you meet any? 15 A: Did I meet any? 16 Q: Yes. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Yeah, I probably did, yeah. 21 Q: Did you know Les Jewel? 22 A: Les Jewel, yes. 23 Q: Right. And we've heard evidence that 24 he was living with Glenn George in Building 6. 25 Were you aware of that?
1521 A: No, I'm not aware of that. I don't 2 know where -- where he lived. 3 Q: But you knew he was there somewhere? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what about Russell Jewel? 6 A: Russell Jewel? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Yes. I knew him. 9 Q: And was he thereabouts somewhere in 10 the barracks, residing in August of '95? 11 A: I don't know. I don't know if he was 12 there actually or not. I don't know if Les was there. 13 But I know I know them. 14 Q: All right. Whether they were living 15 there or not, they were there from time to time, I 16 gather? 17 A: I don't -- I don't recall when they 18 were there actual dates or times, I don't -- I don't 19 recall, but I know that I know them, yes. 20 Q: And what about Buck Doxtator? You've 21 told us that you certainly know him because he asked for 22 your baseball bat the night of September the 6th. I take 23 it you knew him before that? 24 A: No, I don't recall when I -- when I 25 met Buck. I don't recall.
1531 Q: But it was before September the 6th, 2 I take it? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I don't know. I don't know the exact 7 date. I don't know if it was before or after. 8 Q: Well you identified him as the person 9 who had asked you for your baseball bat on September the 10 6th. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You told us that. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So is it fair to say that you knew 15 him at least on September the 6th? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: I guess, yes. I don't know. I don't 19 know when I met, actually, though. 20 Q: All right. And what about Gabriel 21 Doxtator, you knew him? 22 A: I don't think I knew him at the time 23 but I know him now. 24 Q: All right. Robert Isaac? 25 A: Yes.
1541 Q: You knew him at the time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yeah. Al George, I take it you knew 4 him at the time? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Wayne Wilson? 7 A: Wayne Wilson... 8 Q: Long, blonde hair. 9 A: I don't know if I know him. 10 Q: Dutch French? 11 A: No, I don't know him. 12 Q: You don't know him? And, how about 13 Bruce Elijah, did you know him? Had you met him? 14 A: No, I hadn't. I didn't meet him 15 until -- I don't actually recall when I met him, but I 16 know it wasn't before then. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: I don't -- 19 Q: It was -- was it after September the 20 6th? 21 A: It was well after, because I didn't - 22 - I didn't know him until like, maybe a couple years ago. 23 Q: All right. And how about Bob Anton? 24 A: No, I didn't know him until a couple 25 years ago too.
1551 Q: All right. Now, were you aware, Mr. 2 Plain, that in August of '95 there was a controversy 3 between the residents of Kettle Point and the residents 4 of Stoney Point? 5 A: A what? 6 Q: There was a controversy between the 7 residents, or at least some of the residents of Kettle 8 Point, and the occupiers at Stoney Point, about whether 9 or not it was appropriate for the occupiers to be there 10 in the barracks and having occupied the barracks, that 11 there was an issue of controversy? Between those two (2) 12 groups? 13 That the Kettle Pointers weren't, or at 14 least some of the Kettle Point residents weren't happy 15 about the occupiers being there? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You were aware of that? 18 A: Yes. Yeah. 19 Q: And you were aware that, I gather, 20 the -- at least some Kettle Point residents thought that 21 there were outsiders that were living in the Stoney Point 22 barracks who shouldn't be there? 23 A: I don't know. I don't know. 24 Q: You didn't know that was a matter of 25 controversy?
1561 A: No. 2 Q: Did you know it was a matter of 3 controversy between some Kettle Point residents and the 4 Stoney Point occupiers, that some of the Stoney Point 5 occupiers had firearms and that the Kettle Point 6 residents, or at least some of them, didn't think that 7 that was appropriate? 8 Did you know that was an issue of 9 controversy? 10 A: No. No, I didn't, I didn't know. I 11 just know the people from Kettle Point didn't -- didn't 12 like the people over there, for some reason. 13 Q: Yes. And in fact, there was a letter 14 -- do you remember there was a letter in August of '95 15 that was written by the Kettle Point or the Kettle Point 16 Band, who's chief then was Tom Bressette, inviting the 17 outsiders to leave? 18 A: What was that? 19 Q: That there was a letter written by 20 the Kettle Point Band, and Chief Tom Bressette, to the 21 occupiers at Stoney Point in the barracks inviting those 22 outsiders that were there amongst you, to leave? 23 A: No. No. 24 Q: You didn't know about that? 25 A: No.
1571 Q: Now, you told us this morning, that 2 on July 29, '95, you were part of the group that came 3 into the barracks from, I think you said, the back way? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Right? And you were with your 6 cousin, Marlin Simon? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yes. And others. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And the bus came in the main gate? 11 A: The main gate? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: No. 14 Q: It came in from the Army Camp Road, 15 didn't it? 16 A: It came in from... 17 Q: Am I wrong on that? 18 A: -- the road that's parallel with Army 19 Camp Road. 20 Q: Okay. Okay. It came in on the road 21 that's parallel with Army Camp Road. So it came in from 22 the -- from the north? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: I can't --
1581 Q: And it's been -- that was described 2 to us as a -- as a diversion, that is, having the bus 3 come in was described as a diversion; would you agree 4 with that. 5 A: No. 6 Q: No...? But there was, I gather, 7 simultaneously, two (2) groups, you and one (1) of the 8 groups, and the bus being the other, that came into the 9 barracks at the same time? 10 A: No. 11 Q: No...? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. What happened? If it didn't 14 happen that way, how did it happen? The bus -- the bus 15 went in and I -- I already said earlier that, we were in 16 Marlin's car and we were coming this way and there was a 17 spike belt there. 18 A: Yes. 19 A: We grabbed the spike belt, we took it 20 back to the bush somewhere and we -- we brought -- or we 21 came back and by the time we got back there, the bus was 22 at the -- by the gatehouse there. 23 Q: I see. You were slowed down by the - 24 - by the belt, I take it? That took more time than you'd 25 expected?
1591 A: We weren't expecting no time. 2 Q: I see. 3 A: What do you mean by time? 4 Q: Well, but for the belt, if you hadn't 5 had to stop for the belt, you would have arrived at that 6 barracks about the same time as the bus, wouldn't you? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Would you have been there before or 11 after the bus? 12 A: After. 13 Q: All right. So, was this -- this 14 entry into the -- into the barracks from those two (2) 15 directions something that was planned? 16 A: No. 17 Q: It had been discussed beforehand? 18 A: No, I don't think so. 19 Q: So, it just happened that these two 20 (2) groups of people, you and Marlin and -- and the bus, 21 arrived at the barracks at the same time or near the same 22 time? 23 A: I don't -- I don't recall. 24 Q: You don't recall any planning on 25 this?
1601 A: No. 2 Q: So, if you don't recall planning, I 3 guess you don't recall discussing it either, with anybody 4 beforehand? 5 A: No. 6 Q: How did you come to be in Marlin's 7 car? Did he invite you to come along with him? 8 A: I don't know. I always rode around 9 with Marlin because he had a car. I don't -- I don't 10 recall any discussions to take it over or anything like 11 that. No, I don't recall anything like that. I just 12 remember -- just remember going up there. 13 Q: Let me ask you, then about September 14 4, 5, and 6. September 4 was Labour Day; it was a Monday 15 and so I take it you weren't in school that day? 16 A: No. 17 Q: But were you there at the -- at the 18 Stoney Point First Nation barracks and property -- 19 reserve -- at the time on the 4th? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You were -- were you in Sarnia? 22 A: Sarnia, yes. 23 Q: You were about to start school? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, do I have it that you then
1611 started school on September the 5th? 2 A: I don't know the exact date, no. 3 Q: On Tuesday? 4 A: I don't know the exact day or -- or 5 dates, no. 6 Q: But I -- I gather from your evidence 7 that you tell us you weren't there at the -- at the 8 Stoney Point First Nation Reserve on September the 5th, 9 or were you? 10 A: No. 11 Q: You weren't? 12 A: No. 13 Q: You weren't there at all? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Let me just read to if I could, some 16 -- some evidence that was given under oath by Nicholas 17 Cottrelle on March 26th, '97. 18 Sorry, is Nicholas Cottrelle related to 19 you? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: He's a cousin? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And he was, then, about your 24 age, was he? 25 A: He's a year younger than me.
1621 Q: Yeah, so you were sixteen (16), he 2 was fifteen (15)? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And he testified at his trial on 5 March 26th, '97 that on the 5th of September that he was 6 with you swimming most of the day. He says, this is at 7 page 2, the day before, referring to September the 5th -- 8 the day before the incident on September the 6th: 9 "We were -- you were swimming with 10 your cousin? 11 Answer: Yes. 12 And what cousin is that? 13 Answer: Dale George. 14 Question: And what happened after 15 that? 16 Answer: It was getting dark. We went 17 back to the front; I got a change of 18 clothes. 19 Question: The front is what, now? 20 Answer: The barracks. 21 Question: The barracks at...? 22 Answer: My house. 23 Sorry? 24 Answer: My house. 25 Question: And that's you and who else
1631 lived there? 2 Dale -- Answer: Dale. Well, he was 3 staying there." 4 Now, does that help you refresh your 5 memory that you were actually swimming with him -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: -- on September the 5th? 8 A: No. 9 Q: So, you say that's -- that simply 10 isn't accurate. It didn't happen? 11 A: I don't recall, but I -- I recall 12 going to school on -- in September. 13 Q: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Excuse me, I'm just looking for a 18 passage. On September the 6th, then, you say you arrived 19 late in the day? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Did you go to school that day as 22 well? 23 A: Yes. I don't remember if that was 24 the first day or not. I don't recall. 25 Q: Okay.
1641 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And as I hear your evidence, you say 4 that you -- you at some stage in the incident with the 5 police left and went up to Marlin's place at the 6 barracks. Is that right? 7 A: At the built-up area. 8 Q: The built-up area? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yeah. And at what stage was this? 11 What had happened down at the Park that had you go up to 12 Marlin's place? 13 A: My head was almost shot off. 14 Q: I see. So the -- the -- so all the 15 incident pretty well with the police had occurred. The 16 bus had gone out, the shots had been fired, and you went 17 up to Marlin's place? 18 A: Yes, I was -- that was after I was 19 hiding behind the cement -- the cement block when those 20 bullets were flying right over. 21 Q: And you say you -- you -- Marlin was 22 up there? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And had he been down at the Park as 25 far as you understood?
1651 A: He went down there after I went up 2 there. I don't -- I don't recall if he was up there or 3 down at the Park before then or not. 4 Q: Because we've heard Marlin's 5 testimony and Marlin has testified to us here that he 6 came down from the built-up area just as the incident was 7 beginning, that is -- or just after it had begun he saw 8 the bus pull out from the -- behind the fence and out 9 into the parking lot and onto East Parkway. 10 But he -- he said he arrived before that 11 happened. Can you explain, then, how it is that you went 12 up and found him in his place at the -- at the barracks? 13 A: No, I can't explain that. I know -- 14 I know what I seen and that's what I seen. 15 Q: All right, and then you say the next 16 day on September the 7th, you were part of the group from 17 Kettle Point that marched to the Army camp barracks -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- the built-up area. 20 A: The Stoney Point First Nation. 21 Q: Sorry, yes. First Nation -- called 22 the built-up area? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And then I gather you 25 marched down to the Park?
1661 A: I don't recall how we got down there 2 but I -- 3 Q: All right. 4 A: -- I just remember walking up to 5 Stoney Point from Kettle Point and then I don't recall 6 how we got to the -- to the Park now. 7 Q: You may have driven down -- either 8 drove down or walked down. 9 A: Either -- either or, I don't -- I 10 don't recall. 11 Q: All right. And do you remember, 12 then, being with others at the intersection of Army Camp 13 Road and East Parkway Drive? 14 A: When? On September the 7th? 15 Q: Yes, on September the 7th with your 16 group that had come from Kettle Point. 17 A: On the corner of East Parkway Drive 18 and Army Camp Road -- 19 Q: Yes, you've got the diagram behind 20 you. Do you remember being with -- with a large group of 21 people in that area on the 7th? 22 A: I don't -- I don't recall that, no. 23 I just recall when we were walking down the road this 24 way. I don't recall standing there or nothing. 25 Q: Okay.
1671 A: I just remember walking down the 2 road. 3 Q: And you're indicating for the record 4 that you recall walking westbound on East Parkway Drive 5 with the group? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Thank you, those are my 8 questions. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 Mr. Roland. Do you have any questions, Mr. Ross? Mr. 11 Scullion...? 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Just one general 13 question. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 16 Q: Mr. George-Plain, tell me, as you 17 look over this incident, how could it have been 18 prevented? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: How could it have been prevented? 23 The government could have just dealt with the issues of 24 the -- the land. The -- 25 Q: If the government had dealt with the
1681 issues, I take it there would be no need for an 2 occupation? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Anything 6 from you, Mr. Worme? 7 MR. DONALD WORME: I don't have any re- 8 examination. I'd like to thank Mr. Plain for his 9 attendance and testimony today. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much, Mr. Plain, for coming and giving us your 12 evidence. 13 14 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 15 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, that's 17 the -- Mr. Plain was the last witness we had for this 18 week, and -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You mean 20 we're ahead of schedule? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We're ahead of 22 schedule, yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did the 24 media pick that up? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we will now
1691 adjourn until Monday, November 22nd, at 10:30, sir. 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. We're adjourned until Monday, November 22nd, 5 at 10:30 a.m. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 8 adjourned until Monday, November 22nd, at 10:30 a.m. 9 10 --- Upon adjourning at 2:03 p.m. 11 12 13 14 Certified Correct 15 16 17 18 _______________________ 19 Dustin Warnock 20 21 22 23 24 25