11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 9th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 18 (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) (np) 25 Sue Freeborn )
31 2 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 3 4 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 5 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 6 7 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 8 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 9 Jennifer McAleer ) 10 11 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 12 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 13 14 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 15 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 16 17 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 18 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 19 20 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) (np) Police 22 23 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 24 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 25 Debra Newell ) K. Deane
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) (np) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 MICHAEL CLOUD; Resumed 6 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 8 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Sue Freeborn 14 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Mark Sandler 22 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 71 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 128 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 135 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Douglas Sulman 138 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 152 14 15 GLEN BRESSETTE; Sworn 16 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 159 17 18 19 20 Certificate of Transcript 270 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-80 CD-ROM containing three 4 (3) photographs. 8 5 P-81 "Stan" Thompson Drawing Sept 20/95 6 marked by witness Glen Bressette, Jr. 206 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:05 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 7 everybody. 8 9 MICHAEL WAYNE CLOUD, Resumed 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 12 Commissioner. Before we start the cross-examination of 13 Mr. Cloud there's one (1) housekeeping matter that I 14 wanted to just briefly speak to. 15 Yesterday, during Mr. McGilp's cross- 16 examination of Mr. Clayton George, he referred to three 17 (3) photographs. And what I'm going to do is create a CD 18 -- a CD-ROM with those three (3) photographs on and mark 19 it as an exhibit, just for the purposes of the record. 20 And I suggest that we reserve a number 21 right now. It would have been probably better to have 22 done it before Mr. Cloud started, but the next exhibit 23 number would be Exhibit 80, I think. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-80, Your Honour. 25
81 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-80: CD-ROM containing three (3) 2 photographs. 3 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-80. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So, if we reserve that 6 and when we burn the CD-ROM with the three (3) 7 photographs we can simply mark it. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And now we're ready 10 for cross-examination and it's Mr. Alexander, I think. 11 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, 12 we do not have any questions for Mr. Cloud. Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 16 Q: Good morning, Mr. Cloud, my name is 17 Jackie Esmonde, I'm one (1) of the lawyers representing 18 Aazhoodena and the George Family Group. I just have a 19 few questions for you this morning. 20 Now, I believe on the diagram behind you, 21 you marked as number 5, the place where you saw Cecil 22 Bernard George -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- first come into contact with 25 police. And you described that you saw him being moved?
91 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: Did you see how he was moved? 3 A: He was being dragged. 4 Q: He was being dragged? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And how, by his arms or did you see 7 what part of his body? 8 A: His shoulder areas by two (2) police 9 officers while the rest of them were kicking him as they 10 were dragging him. 11 Q: And you, yourself, were hit a number 12 of times by police officers? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Can you point out to me on the diagram 15 behind you where you were, generally, when you were hit? 16 A: All along the fence line. 17 Q: Okay, could you -- could you pick up 18 the mic if you're giving evidence by the diagram? 19 A: All along this fence line here. This 20 is where the -- the main fighting with everybody that 21 took place all along this fence -- this snow fence. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And my area -- my area -- the area 24 that I was covering was this area right in here. 25 Q: Okay, could you just mark that and I
101 think we're at number 9 -- 2 THE REGISTRAR: Number 9. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 5 Q: Where -- if you could just, perhaps, 6 put a line where you were standing when you were hit and 7 put a 9 beside it. 8 A: Like I say, it was a number of areas 9 there. 10 Q: Okay, just a line, generally, showing 11 where you were standing. Okay. 12 And were you ever on the other side of 13 that fence when you were hit by police? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. Sir, on the -- the side of the 16 fence where the sandy parking lot is, you were -- that 17 was what side of the fence I was referring to. So you 18 were standing on the -- the Park side of the fence when 19 you were hit? Is that what I understand? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And you told us that you heard 22 some shots fired. I understand that you heard two (2) 23 distinct shots fired? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And do you remember where you were
111 when you heard those shots fired? 2 A: I was behind the bus. 3 Q: Behind the bus in the sandy parking 4 lot? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Could you, perhaps, mark with a 7 10 where you were standing, to the best of your memory? 8 A: See, to the best of my memory, this 9 kind of throws things off here. 10 Q: And you're pointing at the pile of 11 sand -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- marked on the diagram? If you 14 can't recall, then I would prefer that you not mark it. 15 One (1) moment, please. 16 A: I was behind the bus. 17 Q: I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. 18 A: I was behind the bus. That's the best 19 -- best recollection is in this area here. 20 Q: Okay. And you're pointing just to the 21 west of what is marked as the pile of sand on the 22 diagram? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And could you tell me why it is that 25 that pile of sand on the diagram is throwing you off?
121 A: Because that's not right. I don't 2 believe that's right. That -- that's not right, anyway. 3 Q: That pile of sand wasn't there that 4 night? 5 A: Not to my recollection. That -- there 6 was just a -- to my recollection there was just this 7 fence here and this opening and this came straight out to 8 the road, so why have they got this thrown up there? 9 That shouldn't even be there. 10 Q: Okay. Could you tell what -- what 11 direction the shots came from? 12 A: To my best recollection, the 13 northwesterly area. 14 Q: The northwesterly area. Would you be 15 able to point onto the map where you mean? Okay. You've 16 drawn a line in the northwest section of the sandy 17 parking lot? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And perhaps you could mark 20 that with a 10 -- 10, right. Yes. Okay. So that marks 21 the general area from which you believe the shots were 22 fired? The two (2) distinct shots that you heard fired 23 at first? Thank you. 24 A: To my best recollection. 25 Q: Okay. I think that's all the
131 questions I have for you with respect to that map; if you 2 want to sit down in the chair again. 3 Now, the two (2) shots that you heard 4 fired, did they sound different that -- than the sounds 5 of the shots that you heard subsequently? 6 A: The only difference is -- 7 Q: You can actually speak into the other 8 mike, if that's easier. 9 A: The only difference is the second 10 bullet hit somebody hard and the rest were rapid fire. 11 Q: And when you arrived at the scene and 12 you saw the police officers in the sandy parking lot, 13 what did you believe the police were there to do? 14 A: I did not know. 15 Q: Did you hear the police give any 16 orders to the protestors? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Thank you. Those are all my 19 questions for you today. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much. I understand that you may have some 22 questions, Mr. George? No? 23 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: Commissioner, I had 24 indicated to Mr. Millar at close of hearing yesterday 25 that I may have some questions. It would simply be
141 repetitive at this point, so. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 Then I think next is the Province of Ontario. 4 MS. SUE FREEBORN: I think, Mr. 5 Commissioner, yesterday I said that I would be about five 6 (5) minutes. It might be more like ten (10). 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 Thank you very much. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUE FREEBORN: 11 Q: Good morning, Mr. Cloud. My name is 12 Susan Freeborn. I'm one (1) of the Counsel for the 13 Province of Ontario. And I just have a few questions 14 regarding your evidence with respect to the turning over 15 of the keys. 16 A: Can you repeat that? 17 Q: I will have some questions regarding 18 your evidence yesterday about the keys being turned over. 19 You -- you remember speaking about that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Mr. Millar had asked you how 22 you'd learned about the takeover of the -- of Ipperwash 23 Park. And I'm just going to read your response yesterday 24 and then I'll have some questions. Okay? 25 I have a copy of the transcript. And your
151 response is at -- I'll just find out where it is here. 2 This will be at page 191 of the transcript, at line 25. 3 And Mr. Millar had asked: 4 "Can you tell us how you learned about 5 the takeover of the Provincial Park?" 6 And your response was: 7 "Well, I -- I do -- do know that, like, 8 what made it more shocking is I 9 remember Glenny was telling me they got 10 -- that Les guy gave him the keys. 11 They were -- like, they were 12 negotiating with them guys and they -- 13 they know, they were told ahead of time 14 that, you know, they were going to take 15 back the heart of Stoney Point because 16 of the burial ground, the sacred burial 17 ground after all the campers were 18 gone." 19 Do you recall saying that yesterday? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now my question is arising from that, 22 when you referred to the "Les guy", who did you mean? 23 A: Les Kobayashi. 24 Q: And did you know Mr. Kobayashi 25 yourself at the time?
161 A: No. 2 Q: And so Glenn George told you that it 3 was Les Kobayashi? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And did you know who Les 6 Kobayashi was? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. And you used the word keys as 9 opposed to a key. Is that what Glenn George told you 10 that keys were turned over? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did Mr. George tell you that he 13 himself received the keys? 14 A: No. Basically -- this is like -- 15 that was ten (10) years ago. To the best of my 16 recollection he told me that they were handed the keys to 17 the Park. 18 Q: But he didn't tell you who -- who -- 19 who had -- 20 A: By Les Kobayashi. 21 Q: And but you don't know if they were 22 handed to Mr. George, Glenn George? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did Mr. George tell you what the keys 25 were for?
171 A: No. 2 Q: When you indicated yesterday in your 3 evidence, that they were negotiating, who did you mean by 4 they were negotiating? 5 A: I do not know. 6 Q: Were -- were you speaking about the 7 First Nations people negotiating with -- 8 A: Yes. But I do not know who they 9 were. 10 Q: You don't know the individual -- 11 individuals by name? Is that correct? 12 A: That is correct. 13 Q: And when you say they were 14 negotiating with the guys, who did you mean that they 15 were negotiating with? 16 A: I already said, I do not know. 17 Q: No my question was, if you knew who - 18 - which individuals in the First Nations were speaking 19 with -- 20 A: I already said, I did not know. I 21 was talking with Glenny a number of years back and I did 22 not know who they were. 23 Q: Thank you. You said that they were 24 told ahead of time about the takeover of the Park. You 25 said you couldn't give a precise date but you thought it
181 was a couple of days before the September 4th takeover; 2 and by that did you mean that the Park officials were 3 told in advance that there was -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: If you can just let me finish my 6 question before you -- you answer. My question was, did 7 they know in advance that there were plans to take over 8 the Park? 9 A: Are you referring to Park officials? 10 Q: Well, that's what -- that would be my 11 next question. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You say the Park officials were aware 14 a few days before the takeover? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And just to backtrack one (1) little 17 bit. Did Mr. George tell you when the keys were handed 18 over by Les Kobayashi, was anyone else present? 19 A: I do not know. 20 Q: I'm sorry? 21 A: I do not know. 22 Q: You don't know. Did anyone else 23 apart from Glenn George tell you about -- 24 A: No. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have to
191 wait until the question is finished. Was the question 2 finished? 3 MS. SUE FREEBORN: No, it was not. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have to 5 wait until -- 6 THE WITNESS: Oh. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the 8 question's finished before you answer. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUE FREEBORN: 12 Q: My question was: Did anyone else 13 apart from Glenn George tell you anything more about the 14 planned takeover of the Park? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And I just wanted to also clarify, 17 this conversation that you had with Glenn George about 18 the handing over of the keys, that conversation took 19 place before the September 4th takeover, am I right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So just so I've got -- got it 22 straight, I just wanted to make sure that you're saying 23 that prior to the September 4th takeover, there were some 24 negotiations between First Nations people and Park 25 officials?
201 A: To my -- yes. 2 Q: According to what Mr. George told 3 you? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: So you know if the OPP was involved 6 in any of those discussions? 7 A: I only know what I told you. I know 8 nothing else. 9 Q: Thank you. 10 A: I do not know if the OPP were 11 involved or not. 12 Q: Thank you. And the other issue I 13 wanted to ask you about was you said yesterday that they 14 were told beforehand that the -- there were sacred bur -- 15 sacred burial grounds in the Park. 16 Are you saying -- am I correct in that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that you said that the keys were 19 turned over prior to the September 4th takeover, a couple 20 of days prior? 21 A: It's like I told you earlier. I was 22 talking with Glenny a number of years ago -- to my best 23 recollection that the keys were handed to them, keys to 24 the Park. And that is it. 25 Q: Have you had any other discussions
211 with Mr. George about -- 2 A: No. Go ahead. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Cloud, 4 just wait a minute until the question's finished and -- 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- then 7 answer it. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUE FREEBORN: 11 Q: When you said you had your 12 discussions with Mr. George a number of years ago, are 13 you speaking about those few days before the September 14 4th takeover? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Have you had any discussions with 17 Glenn George since then about the handover of the keys or 18 any negotiations? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Thank you very much. Those are my 21 questions. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 Mr. Sandler, on behalf of the OPP. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
221 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 2 Q: Good morning, Mr. Cloud. 3 A: Morning. 4 Q: Mr. Cloud, I'm first going to ask you 5 about this helicopter incident that we've heard a little 6 bit of evidence about. And we heard the other day from 7 Clayton George, or Kokomo Joe as you know him, that the 8 day of the helicopter shooting, he actually heard the 9 shot fired from behind him while he was at the Army camp. 10 Did he tell you that back then in -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- August of '93? Did you learn that 13 from anybody else? 14 A: I learned that yesterday. 15 Q: So that was the first that you'd 16 heard that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. Now, I'm going to move to 19 another topic, the -- and that's the picnic tables. And 20 as I understand it, you were not present when a number of 21 picnic tables were taken into the sandy parking lot. Do 22 I have that right so far? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- and I gathered as well that 25 you've already told the Commissioner that on September
231 the 5th, that's the Tuesday, the day after the takeover 2 of the Park, you had no interaction whatsoever with the 3 OPP. Am I correct so far? 4 A: Just -- the only interaction I made - 5 - may have had was going into Aazhoodena, going through 6 the gate. 7 Q: All right. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 9 Scullion...? 10 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: A quick comment. He 11 did also refer to an incident with the OPP on the outside 12 of the Park on the roadway when he was pulled over with 13 roadblocks. So I just -- it was an overly broad question 14 as to whether or not he had any interaction with the 15 police that day, and he had testified that he had. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: I agree with that. I 18 was taking the precise words that he used yesterday, 19 which was he had no interaction with the police that day 20 and I gathered from interaction we're talking about 21 something a little more significant, but I take the 22 point, that's fine. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER:
241 Q: So moving on. So, I do want to ask 2 you about some evidence that -- that, again, Clayton 3 George gave yesterday about the picnic tables and I 4 appreciate when I'm asking you these questions at once, 5 that you were not present when the episode took place, 6 but I wanted to develop what you learned about -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- the episode 9 afterwards, okay? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 11 did you want to say something? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, perhaps My 13 Friend has anticipated my concern. He wasn't there, so 14 if he wants to ask him -- I take it he wants to ask him 15 what hearsay he heard afterwards, then I'll -- I'll wait 16 until the question's asked. 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: I want to see the 18 extent to which what was transpiring with the picnic 19 tables was being discussed within the Army Camp or the 20 Park. I'm not necessarily interested in the truth of the 21 hearsay, I'm interested in the discussions, the 22 communications that are taking place. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. I 24 think you can proceed. 25 MR. MARK SANDLER: Thank you.
251 2 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 3 Q: Clayton George told us yesterday that 4 there was a barricade formed with picnic tables in the 5 sandy parking lot. And I asked him a few questions and 6 he gave these answers, and in fairness I thought you 7 should hear them precisely rather than have me summarize 8 them, okay? 9 Question: 10 "The idea was that you're out in the 11 sandy parking lot for a couple reasons, 12 weren't you? The first reason is that 13 as far as you were concerned that sandy 14 parking lot belonged to you and your 15 Peoples and you were perfectly entitled 16 to occupy it; right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that was one (1) of the points 19 that was being made by being out there, 20 that, We are occupying the sandy 21 parking lot, not just the interior of 22 the Park; right? 23 A: Yes." 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have 25 another objection, Mr. Sandler.
261 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: It's not an 2 objection. If you could just tell us what page number -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 4 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- you're reading 5 from. 6 MR. MARK SANDLER: 76. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 8 Sandler. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 11 Q: And: 12 "Q: Right. And the other point that 13 was being made is that if you 14 barricaded the sandy parking lot, then 15 that would prevent non-occupiers from 16 using that area to gain access to the 17 Park. That was the other reason for 18 doing it; right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yes, of course. And the other 21 reason that I'm going to suggest that 22 you brought out all of these picnic 23 tables and created a barricade in the 24 sandy parking lot area, was because you 25 and the others who were occupying could
271 then have some ability to control the 2 access along Army Camp Road and East 3 Parkway Drive; am I right? 4 A: Yes." 5 Now, here's what I want to ask you. When 6 you arrived at the Park on either September the 5th in 7 the evening hours or September the 6th during the day, 8 was there discussion that -- with the occupiers about the 9 fact that the sandy parking lot was being staked out for 10 those reasons? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Are you sure about that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Were you aware -- 15 A: To my knowledge, I do not know. 16 Q: Okay. Were you aware that -- that 17 barricades had been set up in the -- in the sandy parking 18 lot? 19 A: To my knowledge, I do not know. 20 Q: Well, I'm not sure -- and I -- and I 21 don't mean to be disrespectful, when you say "to my 22 know" -- 23 A: I'm saying, to my knowledge, I do not 24 know. I answered your question. 25 Q: Listen to my question first, please.
281 When you say "To my knowledge, I don't know", I 2 understand you weren't there. I'm asking you simply 3 whether or not you became aware as a result of 4 discussions with people within the Park? 5 A: I just -- I answered your question. 6 Q: Okay. Well, listen to the question. 7 I want to make sure we're clear. 8 A: I made it very clear. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just listen 10 to the question and then do your best to answer it. Go 11 ahead, Mr. Sandler. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 14 Q: Is it your evidence that you never 15 discussed with anyone or were never told by anyone on 16 September the 6th, when you were at the Park, that picnic 17 tables had been set up as a barricade out in the sandy 18 parking lot? 19 A: That is correct. 20 Q: Okay. Well, we've got it. Now, on 21 September the 6th, during the day, you've claimed in your 22 evidence yesterday that you saw police with full bar -- 23 body armour at the checkpoint who were members of the 24 TRUE team; do I have that right? 25 A: I was speculating that they were
291 members of the TRUE team. 2 Q: All right. Well, you've anticipated 3 my first question. Did you know what a TRUE team was 4 back on September the 6th of 1995? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No. You've learned about the TRUE 7 team and what that means, and the kinds of things they 8 wear and so on since September the 6th of '95; am I 9 right? 10 A: Well, they were different -- they 11 were different than the other police. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: They were a different group. 14 Q: All right. But -- 15 A: They were more, like, more army than 16 police. 17 Q: And I -- I -- I agree with you that 18 there are police officers who wear fuller body armour. 19 And I want to ask you again the question that I just 20 tried to ask a moment ago; and that is that you learned 21 who the TRUE team was, that name and -- and what their 22 functions were and so on, after September the 6th of 23 1995; right? 24 A: It was in the paper. 25 Q: Well, so the answer is, right, I take
301 it? 2 A: What answer? 3 Q: It was only after September 6th of 4 1995 that you'd heard the name TRUE team and learned what 5 that team is all about; am I right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yes. Thank you. And when you said 8 that there were police officers with full body armour at 9 the checkpoint, how early in the day do you claim that -- 10 that you saw that? 11 A: Well, I'm not sure really. 12 Q: Well, was it during the daytime 13 hours; let's start there? 14 A: Yes, it was early. 15 Q: It was? 16 A: Well, I'm not, like, I'm not sure. I 17 just know I was there once during the day. I'm -- like, 18 I don't know the exact time; you're talking ten (10) 19 years ago. 20 Q: I'm not asking for the exact time. 21 And I certainly appreciate that we're calling upon all of 22 the witnesses here to -- to go back a number of years to 23 give evidence. So I -- I appreciate, even if I may 24 disagree with some of the things you say, I certainly 25 appreciate the difficulties that you're being called upon
311 to respond to. 2 Because I'm going to suggest to you that 3 there were no members of the TRUE team with full body 4 armour that were at a checkpoint -- 5 A: Well, maybe I was -- 6 Q: -- during the daytime hours on 7 September the 6th? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have to 9 wait until he finishes the question, again, Mr. Cloud, 10 before you try to answer it. We've got some 11 observations. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, Mr. Cloud, I 13 would appreciate it if you would wait until the 14 questionĂs asked -- 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- before you answer. 17 There are two (2) reasons for it. The first is the 18 transcript canĂt pick up two (2) people speaking at the 19 same time so that we will lose either the question or the 20 answer or, probably, both. So, itĂs important that we 21 not do that. 22 And the second is that you need to let the 23 -- the Examiner ask the question completely before you 24 answer because what youĂre doing is anticipating the 25 question and you should wait and listen until itĂs asked
321 before you answer. But -- and -- but for the transcript, 2 if -- if -- if you donĂt do that, then weĂre going to 3 lose it. So -- 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Cloud, 7 even if you think youĂve already answered the question, 8 you have to wait until he asks it and then weĂll deal 9 with it. 10 THE WITNESS: All right. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Even if you 12 think we've already dealt with it. Yes, Mr. Scullion? 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I had two (2) 14 observations: One (1) is I -- I do disagree with the 15 terminology used by Mr. Sandler in terms of what the 16 witness is claiming. HeĂs testified as to what he saw 17 and what he understood that day; heĂs not claiming 18 anything and I just note that that wording is being used 19 and IĂd ask that Mr. Sandler please refer to it as his 20 evidence given In-Chief. 21 The second is, he has testified as to what 22 he saw at that time. HeĂs also testified that he didnĂt 23 know what the TRUE Team was, so the last question Mr. 24 Sandler was putting to him, that the TRUE Team hadnĂt 25 shown up by that point in time is unfair because he
331 doesnĂt know -- heĂs already testified he doesnĂt know 2 what a TRUE Team was as of September 6th. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 4 MR. MARK SANDLER: The questions are 5 perfectly clear -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- in my respectful 8 submission -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- and -- and thatĂs - 11 - thatĂs -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- trivializing the 14 matter. This is cross-examination, with great respect. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. You 16 established that he didnĂt know what the TRUE Team was 17 until -- 18 MR. MARK SANDLER: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- later, so 20 you might ask him if the people were wearing the uniforms 21 heĂs described were there. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 24 Q: Well, IĂm just suggesting to you, sir, 25 that -- that if you give it kind of a hard think back
341 nine (9) years, that officers wearing full body uniform 2 armour in the way that you describe were not at the 3 checkpoint during the daylight hours on September the 6th 4 of 1995. Is that possible? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. Got your evidence. Now, on 7 September the 6th, you said that when you arrived within 8 the Park, you described the atmosphere as good and 9 pleasant and everyone was in a cheery mood. Do I have 10 that right? 11 A: During the day. 12 Q: During the day? Did you tell the 13 people who were in a cheery, pleasant mood within the 14 Park during the daylight hours of September the 6th that 15 youĂd just seen officers in full body armour nearby as a 16 checkpoint? 17 A: IĂm sure everybody seen what was going 18 on. 19 Q: Well, no, I asked you a very specific 20 question. Did you communicate to the people -- 21 A: No. 22 Q: You didnĂt? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have to 24 -- again, Mr. Cloud -- 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry.
351 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I know 2 youĂre anxious to answer the question and youĂre trying 3 your best to answer -- 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- as 6 honestly as you can, but you have to wait until the 7 question is finished. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 11 Q: So the answer to my question as to 12 whether you told the people who were within the Park and 13 whose mood you described that there were officers with 14 full body armour outside -- immediately outside the Camp, 15 is -- is what? Did you tell them or did you not? 16 A: I didnĂt need to tell anybody 17 anything. 18 Q: So you didnĂt say -- 19 A: Everybody knew -- everybody knew what 20 was going on. 21 Q: Everybody knew? All right. And that 22 didnĂt change the mood within the Camp or the Park? 23 A: Well, we were happy to be at home. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: We were happy to be on the burial
361 ground and have it back. 2 Q: So -- 3 A: We were happy to have our homeland 4 back. 5 Q: All right. So the answer to my 6 question is, that didnĂt change the mood within the Park? 7 A: IĂm sure that -- what youĂre taking as 8 what I said, I took it to be pleasant; that doesnĂt mean 9 it was. 10 Q: Okay. Now, weĂve heard that on the 11 afternoon of September the 6th, occupiers were 12 accumulating rocks, sticks, clubs, baseball bats, metal 13 pipes, either at the Park or, perhaps, being taken from 14 the Camp to the Park. Were you aware of that? 15 A: No. 16 Q: WeĂve heard that people were driving 17 back and forth from the Camp to the Park to make it look 18 to the police like there were more occupiers within the 19 Park than there were. Were you aware of that? 20 A: No. 21 Q: How long were you at the Park on 22 September the 6th, during the daylight hours? 23 A: Not long. 24 Q: By "not long" what do you mean? 25 A: I can't remember. Maybe an hour,
371 maybe two (2) hours. Less than two (2) hours, though. 2 Q: Less than two (2) hours? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Now, we've heard that 5 during the evening hours of September the 6th there was 6 an incident on the roadside and, again, Clayton George, 7 or Kokomo Joe was asked about this yesterday at Page 92, 8 and here's the question: 9 "Okay, now I'm going to ask you about 10 the events on the evening of September 11 the 6th. So that's the Wednesday, 12 September the 6th, the day of the 13 confrontation, all right? And again, I 14 expect that there's going to be some 15 evidence that at about 7:30 that 16 evening a group of occupiers were 17 standing at the intersection of Army 18 Camp Road and East Parkway Drive and 19 four (4) or five (5) had what appeared 20 to be axe handles in their hands or 21 sticks and bats and an individual was 22 told to get out of the area, this 23 wasn't his fight. 24 First of all, were you one (1) of those 25 occupiers?"
381 Answer: 2 "Out on the road?" 3 Question: 4 "Yeah". 5 Answer: 6 "Yes". 7 Now were you aware on September the 6th in 8 the evening hours that -- that there were occupiers who 9 were armed with weapons that were out in the vicinity of 10 Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did anybody tell you -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- anything along those lines? 15 A: No. 16 Q: We've also heard or will hear 17 evidence about a confrontation between Gerald George, and 18 do you know who Gerald George is? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And -- and some of the occupiers 21 again outside of the fenced in perimeter of the Park in 22 which a stone was thrown at his car and he was either 23 slapped or -- or punched. Were you made aware of that 24 incident on -- 25 A: No.
391 Q: -- September the 6th? So did anybody 2 describe anything that was transpiring earlier in the day 3 to you on September the 6th? 4 A: There was no point in me going round 5 questioning people what they were doing. 6 Q: All right. Now you said that you'd 7 had a conversation with your mother when the two (2) of 8 you were at Kettle Point because she was concerned about 9 your brother, Joey. You remember that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Did she tell you that the occupiers 12 within the Park were stockpiling weapons and rocks and 13 stones and sticks and pipes or baseball bats and that 14 that was part of the basis for her concern? 15 A: I thought that you brung that up 16 yesterday. You -- you -- didn't you bring that up 17 yourself? 18 Q: Well, I'm just asking you whether she 19 talked to you about that. 20 A: No but I -- from what I heard 21 yesterday, I thought that you -- you brung that up. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The way this 23 works, Mr. Cloud, is Mr. Sandler asks you questions and 24 you answer them to the best of your ability. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh. Well, to my knowledge
401 there was no such thing, ever done. 2 MR. MARK SANDLER: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 6 Q: Now, when you did arrive at the 7 scene, and I'm meaning at the Park itself on the evening 8 of September the 6th, we've heard that Kokomo Joe was 9 already there and he said something like, Help us, help 10 us. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Am I right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I'm going to suggest that the 15 altercation with the police had already begun, had it 16 not? 17 A: It's possible. 18 Q: It's possible. And did you see 19 Kokomo Joe alongside you during the confrontation with 20 the police? 21 A: I didn't know where he was. 22 Q: And you told the Commissioner 23 yesterday afternoon that the occupiers were lined up and 24 -- and you were outnumbered 10:1 easily, 25 "each guy was holding off a good ten
411 (10), maybe there were a dozen 2 occupiers and the police outnumbered us 3 10:1 easily". 4 I just want to understand your 5 recollection. I mean, just doing the numbers and 6 understanding that -- that nobody's expected to be 7 precise about the numbers of people involved, that would 8 mean that there'd be at least a hundred (100) or more 9 police officers that were in this confrontation with you. 10 Is -- is that truly your evidence? 11 A: That's -- like I said, we were 12 heavily outnumbered. That's what I believe. I don't 13 know how many police was there. I just know that we were 14 heavily outnumbered. 15 Q: Well, what I'm trying to do is get 16 some better sense because we -- we take everything that 17 every witness says seriously, so -- 18 A: Well -- 19 Q: -- so hear my question first. So, 20 let's see if we can kind of establish some parameters for 21 how many police officers your memory tells you were 22 involved in the altercation. 23 I mean, could it have been as few as forty 24 (40), forty-five (45) officers that were involved? 25 A: I don't -- I don't think so.
421 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: I don't believe so. 3 Q: You don't believe so? Well, what do 4 you think is the smallest number of police officers that 5 -- that could have been involved in this confrontation 6 with the occupiers? 7 A: I don't know. Maybe sixty (60) or 8 seventy (70). 9 Q: Maybe sixty (60) or seventy (70). 10 All right, well, we know, I guess it's common ground 11 amongst everybody who's involved in this, that -- that 12 the police appear to have outnumbered the occupiers 13 during this confrontation. The occupiers were armed with 14 baseball bats, some had baseball bats, did they not? 15 A: No. 16 Q: There wasn't a single baseball bat 17 there? 18 A: I never seen them. 19 Q: All right. Sticks? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Rocks? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Burning branches at one (1) time? 24 A: I -- the only burning branch was a 25 piece of wood I pulled out of the fire and threw it at
431 them. 2 Q: Okay. And you had a wooden club, 3 right? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: As you've said you threw a branch on 6 fire at them and threw rocks at them. Right? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Sorry, you have to -- you have to 9 speak out loud so the microphone captures it. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. Now despite the fact that 12 the police outnumbered you, they never did actually enter 13 the fenced in portion of the Park, did they? 14 A: They tried. 15 Q: Well, that's what you say. But I 16 want to go slowly here and I want to kind of go through 17 what the evidence is. Let's start with this; I'm going 18 to suggest to you that not a single police officer -- 19 pite heavily outnumbering you and despite the armour that 20 you described that they had, ever entered the Park? 21 Let's just start there. Am I right so far? 22 A: They tried. 23 Q: Am I right so far? 24 A: Yeah. We did not let them in. 25 That's the only reason why they did not come in is
441 because we wouldn't let them come in. 2 Q: Now when Kokomo -- 3 A: Why do you think they were there 4 attacking us trying to get in? You think they were there 5 just to stand on the outside? 6 Q: No, I think they were there with 7 great respect, to push the occupiers back into the Park. 8 And that's precisely what happened isn't it? 9 A: No. They were trying to come into 10 the Park. 11 Q: Well let's just look for a moment, 12 I'd be interested in your comments on what Clayton George 13 or Kokomo George said -- said yesterday. 14 A: I can't speak for him. 15 Q: I'm not asking you to speak for him 16 I'm just asking you to comment on the accuracy or the 17 truth of what he had said yesterday, okay? So hear -- 18 A: I can't speak for him because I don't 19 know what he was doing and I -- 20 Q: -- my question first. Just hear my 21 question first. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Once again, 23 you have to wait until the question's asked. If you 24 can't answer it you can't answer it. But you have to 25 wait until the question is asked.
451 2 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 3 Q: And I'm looking at page 103 of 4 yesterday's transcript. 5 "Q: Now a few more questions about 6 the actual confrontation. When the 7 police rushed the fence there were 8 occupiers outside of the fence. We 9 know that, right? 10 A: Just the first time when my 11 uncle's dog got kicked. 12 Q: Okay. So there were occupiers 13 outside of the fence. The police come 14 up to the fence and the police withdrew 15 once you're all behind the fence. Am I 16 right so far? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And they never do come into the 19 Park, do they? 20 A: No. Not past the Park fence. 21 Q: Fair enough. And the police 22 officer in charge tried to speak but he 23 couldn't be heard because of all the 24 yelling. Am I right? 25 A: Yes.
461 Q: And you couldn't make out what 2 anybody was saying. 3 A: No. 4 Q: And they didn't touch you when you 5 were behind the fence line, is that 6 right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And when you started going over 9 the fence and throwing stones at them, 10 they were backing up, am I right? 11 A: Yes." 12 Now, a few questions arising out of that. 13 The first is that, let's see what we can agree upon 14 first. There was a lot of commotion when this 15 confrontation was taking place wasn't there? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: A lot of noise, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: A lot of yelling on both sides, 20 right? 21 A: I don't think that's fair to say. 22 Q: So I'm -- I'm implying or I'm 23 inferring from the way you responded that -- that you're 24 going to suggest that there were -- that there were no 25 obscenities from the occupiers' side; is that -- is that
471 what you're saying? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: No. I believe there was more from 6 the police. 7 Q: Was -- was there any from the 8 occupiers' side? 9 A: Most of the occupiers were trying to 10 -- were yelling at them about our rights. We had rights 11 to be there. 12 Q: Well, I mean, were there things being 13 said -- and, again, I -- 14 A: If we -- 15 Q: -- I -- 16 A: -- the obscenity might be, We have 17 fucking rights; that would be the obscenity. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: If that's what you're referring to. 20 That -- it was a little different coming from the police, 21 you know, calling us waggon burners. I -- I would say 22 that is an obscenity. 23 Q: But -- 24 A: We were trying to explain to them 25 that we have rights, and they wouldn't listen. So maybe
481 we'd go, We have fucking Native rights, maybe -- I don't 2 consider that obscenity. 3 Q: All right. Well, I -- I hear what 4 you're saying. But -- but I just want to explore this a 5 little bit with you, if I may. Because, first of all, 6 what I'm going to suggest is that some of the language 7 that was coming from the occupiers' side was something 8 more than, We've got fucking rights. I mean, the 9 officers were being called, Fucking pigs, and -- and 10 words of that description. 11 I mean, isn't that so? 12 A: No. 13 Q: You're sure about that? 14 A: To -- to the best of my knowledge. 15 Q: Well, when you say the best of your 16 knowledge, there, I mean, is that possible or -- or what 17 are you telling me? 18 A: Yeah, that -- to the best of my 19 knowledge. 20 Q: Okay. And what I'm going to suggest 21 is that you remember that you gave two (2) very detailed 22 statements to the -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- SIU, who investigated this -- 25 A: Yes.
491 Q: -- matter, am I right? Did you ever 2 allege in the statements to the SIU, and I'm going to 3 suggest, who specifically asked you about what the 4 officers said, that -- that language like "waggon 5 burners" was used? 6 A: Yeah. There was stuff like that, 7 yeah. 8 Q: No, no. I'm asking you not whether 9 stuff like that was said -- 10 A: Yes -- 11 Q: -- I'm asking -- 12 A: -- that was said. 13 Q: -- I'm asking you whether you told 14 the SIU that? 15 A: I can't remember. I don't believe 16 so. 17 Q: You don't believe so. All right. I 18 mean, one (1) of the things that I -- I want to ask you 19 about is that since the incident occurred on September 20 the 6th, and I -- and I'm not suggesting there's anything 21 improper about this at all -- you've discussed with the 22 other people who were occupiers and who were involved in 23 the confrontation what their recollections were about the 24 incident; right? 25 A: No.
501 Q: That -- that's never happened? 2 A: No. It's something that we -- why 3 would you, like -- well, for me anyway, I -- I never 4 talked about it. It's too -- too -- why would you -- why 5 would you want to talk about something so horrible. 6 Q: All right. So -- so your evidence is 7 that you have never discussed what transpired that night 8 with any of the other people who -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- were present at the confrontation. 11 Okay. We've got your evidence. Now, moving from there 12 for a moment, the only lighting that you recall, as I 13 understand it, was a burning picnic table on a bonfire 14 and some spotlight that may have been on at various times 15 during the confrontation; do I have that right? 16 A: I believe, yeah, the -- the majority 17 of the light was the picnic table. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: I believe -- I think I might have 20 seen the spotlight once -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- maybe -- 23 Q: All right. And -- 24 A: -- once. 25 Q: And the scene was quite dark and it
511 was difficult to see; correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now, I'm going to ask you a little 4 bit about Cecil Bernard George. We know that he jumped 5 the fence; am I right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And we know that he headed in the 8 direction of the police; am I right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And we know that he was running in 11 their direction; am I right? 12 A: No. 13 Q: So he was walking? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And we know that he had a club in his 16 hand and was swinging it; correct? 17 A: I seen him with his arm up in the 18 air. I didn't notice a club. 19 Q: Well, you've described in some great 20 detail to the Commissioner yesterday the altercation 21 between Cecil Bernard George and the police. But when 22 you were asked about the club by -- by My Friend Mr. 23 Millar here, you indicated that -- that you were too 24 scared to see if he had a club in his hand. 25 A: Well, I was scared all right. But I
521 didn't notice if he had a club. 2 Q: But -- 3 A: I was more worried about him coming 4 back. That's what I was yelling at him. I was yelling 5 at him to get back. 6 Q: Well, let's go slowly here. I'm 7 going to suggest to you that it was perfectly obvious to 8 you that Cecil Bernard George had a club in his hand and 9 was swinging it as he went towards the officers. 10 A: Absolutely not. 11 Q: No. Is it possible that he had a 12 club in his hand? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No. Okay. 15 A: I -- I -- well, to the best of my 16 knowledge, no. 17 Q: All right. Now, I expect that 18 there's going to be some evidence that -- that one (1) of 19 the police shields was actually cracked as a result of 20 being struck with a club. Did you see that? 21 A: No. But I'm sure that possibly could 22 have happened. 23 Q: Could have happened? All right. Now 24 when you told the Commissioner yesterday that Bernard 25 George thought that they were going to listen to him, he
531 identified himself as a Kettle and Stony Point 2 councillor. I'm going to suggest to you that in your 3 very detailed statements to the SIU back in 1996 and 4 1997, you never said either of those things. 5 A: What? 6 Q: Am I right? Either that -- that 7 Bernard George identified himself to the police as a 8 Kettle and Stony Point councillor -- 9 A: Oh, yes he did. 10 Q: Well, did you tell the SIU that? 11 A: I can't remember but he did identify 12 himself to the police. That's probably why he went out 13 there thinking that they would listen. 14 Q: Well you see, in fairness I'm going 15 to tell you what I'm suggesting, all right? We can go 16 through the two (2) SIU statements. You can go through 17 them for as long as you'd like. And what I'm going to 18 suggest to you that what we see in the SIU statements and 19 I just want to cut right to the -- to the heart of this. 20 Is you talk about Bernard George kind of 21 jumping over the fence and approaching the officers. You 22 talk about the fact that you told them to come back -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- you told them -- you indicated to 25 the SIU that you didn't know why he was kind of jumping
541 out there. And what I'm going to suggest to you is it's 2 only now that you're indicating or suggesting that -- 3 that he's out there kind of some sort of a peacemaker 4 identifying himself as a councillor because he simply 5 wants to state the case for Native rights and -- and kind 6 of talk -- talk away the situation. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Sandler, 8 Mr. Scullion wants to say something. 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm just referring 10 to one (1) of the SIU documents that has been produced to 11 all in this matter. And Mr. Cloud certainly refers to 12 Mr. Bernard George going out and yelling about Native 13 rights. So to suggest to him that that was never said by 14 Mr. Cloud. It's unfair to this witness. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, Mr. 16 Sandler did say that he was trying to get right to it so 17 maybe he got to it a bit too quickly. Do you want to 18 refer to the -- 19 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm -- I'm going to 20 refer him to the passage because -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well refer 22 him to the passages to be fair. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 25 Q: All right. Because I wasn't
551 suggesting, he was yelling about Native rights. I'm 2 suggesting something very different. But let's look at 3 the various passages where we're kind of talking about 4 Cecil Bernard George. 5 The first is in the interview of January 6 the 20th of 1996. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Cloud, that's at 8 Tab 1 in the book that you have. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 MR. MARK SANDLER: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: January the 12 20th, '96. 13 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And the page 15 number? 16 MR. MARK SANDLER: And the first 17 reference is at page 9. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 21 Q: And -- and I'm looking at near the 22 bottom of the page: 23 "Well, they just -- the about twenty 24 (20) of them went really fast out of 25 the range of the broom."
561 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 2 minute. Have you got this, Mr. Cloud? Can you follow 3 this as he's questioning you? 4 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm sorry. I -- I 5 should have waited until you're there. We're at page 9. 6 Do you have that, sir. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At the 10 bottom? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: So it's the -- it's 13 the last reference. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 16 Q: "Well they just -- the about 17 twenty (20) of them went really fast 18 out of the range of the broom. Well, 19 out of the -- out of the light more or 20 less. About maybe twenty (20) or 21 twenty-five (25) of them went right 22 back. And then I -- when the guy 23 jumped the fence he shouldn't have 24 never did that but he did. And he went 25 out. This was after they charged twice
571 trying to come in clubbing away." 2 Now just stopping there for a moment. Is 3 this Cecil Bernard George that you're referring to here? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And then on the next page, 6 Page 10, right at the top. 7 "And then they got Bernard. I seen, 8 like, he jumped the fence" 9 And then the SIU officer says 10 "Bernard George jumped the fence?" 11 Answer: 12 "Yeah". 13 And he says "good", and then you say, 14 "And then he went out, he was yelling 15 at them about native rights, and I 16 jumped over and I says, Get back. I 17 told them, Gget back. And then, well, 18 that's probably six (6) guys jumped 19 him". 20 Sorry, 21 "eight (8) guys jumped him." 22 And then skipping down to about six (6) 23 lines near the bottom of that, 24 "You know I don't -- I didn't think 25 anybody should have went out and
581 crossed that fence, because that's 2 what's saving everybody from getting 3 hurt". 4 And then at Page 14, we see the officer 5 asking you: 6 "Was Bernard George the first one to 7 jump the fence and go out?' 8 "As far as I know, yes" 9 "You later went out yourself?" 10 "I just jumped out because he did and 11 then I told to get back. I yelled at 12 him, get back, get in, get out of 13 there. I said they're going to get 14 you". 15 And then if you'd look at the statement 16 that you gave to the SIU investigators on September the 17 25th of 1997. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 19 that's at Tab -- the second Tab, September 25th, 1997. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 22 Q: And I'm looking at Page 6 and at the 23 middle of the page. This is you. 24 "There was when Bernard for some reason 25 went over the fence, I went over the
591 fence too". 2 A: What page is that? 3 Q: I'm sorry, Page 6. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In the 5 middle of Page 6. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 9 Q: And here's where you say, 10 "There was, when Bernard for some 11 reason went over the fence, I went over 12 the fence too. I shouldn't have went 13 over the fence and then there was a 14 line of shielded officers to the north, 15 north side of Bernard. Bernard jumped 16 over the fence." 17 Now, what I'm really suggesting to you is 18 this; that in your statements to the SIU first of all, 19 you've never indicated that Bernard George identified 20 himself as a councillor with Kettle and Stony Point when 21 he came -- when he jumped out over the fence. Are you 22 with me so far? 23 A: Well, I -- I think it would be better 24 if the tapes were listened too, because -- maybe the 25 tapes should have been listened to again, because there
601 is -- the part -- I did read part of this one (1) 2 statement there the night before last and the grammar in 3 it is ridiculous. I don't know who translated the tape 4 but there's all kinds of errors in this statement to 5 begin with. 6 Maybe this -- like -- I think that the 7 tape should be played -- the actual tape should be 8 played -- 9 Q: All right, but -- 10 A: But if you want to refer to it, maybe 11 we -- because it was taped. 12 Q: Yes, it was taped. And what I'm just 13 asking you is this, because we got to start somewhere. 14 You've read the transcript of the tapes and you've 15 reflected that there's grammatical mistakes and so on 16 but -- 17 A: Yes, these are drafts as far as I'm 18 concerned. 19 Q: Hear me out, please. In the 20 transcripts of the tapes, there's no reference to the 21 fact that Bernard George identified himself as a Kettle 22 and Stony Point councillor; am I right? 23 A: You're referring to the draft 24 documents here? 25 Q: Yes. I have to start somewhere so am
611 I right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And secondly, the only reference to 4 the reason why Cecil Bernard George jumped over the fence 5 is your recollection of the fact that you didn't know the 6 reason. For some reason he jumped over the fence. 7 You didn't give the SIU investigators a 8 reason why Cecil Bernard George jumped over the fence and 9 went towards the officers when you made your statements 10 to the SIU; am I right? 11 A: According to the draft. 12 Q: According to the draft. And, again, 13 if we listen to the tapes and it's there, then I'll be 14 the first to apologize to you. I can -- 15 A: According to what I am saying now, I 16 clearly heard him say that. 17 Q: No. I understand -- 18 A: That is why he put his hand up in the 19 air, thinking that they would actually listen to him. I 20 knew they wouldn't. 21 Q: If he did have a club in his hand, it 22 certainly wouldn't send that message; would it? 23 A: If he had a club. 24 Q: Yeah. Well, I'm going to suggest to 25 you he's actually going to tell us that he had a club in
621 his hand. Did you know that? 2 A: No. 3 Q: No. Okay. 4 A: And you ask him if he identified 5 himself as a councillor. That's probably the last thing 6 he remembered before he was clubbed in the back of the 7 head by the police. 8 Q: All right. Now -- well, again, 9 according to you, I mean, he was clubbed in the back of 10 the head by the police and that was it. He never 11 resisted at all any of the things that the police were 12 doing to him. I've got your evidence on that correct 13 too? 14 A: Because he was knocked out, I'm sure 15 of it. 16 Q: Okay. Well, we've got it, and we 17 will hear from him. 18 Now, the reason why the shooting started, 19 according to your statement to the SIU, was that the car 20 ran into the police, they were scared and that's why the 21 shooting started; is that correct? 22 A: I said somewheres along those lines. 23 Q: Well, exactly along those lines. 24 That's what you told the SIU, is it not? I'm going to 25 show you the passage.
631 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 2 Scullion...? 3 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Counsel's 4 anticipating my objection. If he's going to refer and 5 quote directly and then challenge his response, he should 6 be able to take a look at where in the transcript or in 7 the statement he's referring to. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 Yes, I think that's right. He's doing that. 10 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm doing it. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 14 Q: So we're looking at the first 15 statement again, at Tab 1. And I'm looking at the bottom 16 of page 12. So this is Tab 1, the bottom of page 12. 17 And you say: 18 "Them police got scared that -- I think 19 they scared when the car come in that 20 knock -- they weren't so much as scared 21 of that bus, it was that car, because 22 the car come in and he ran into them 23 guys, but he wasn't going fast, he was 24 just driving -- driving into them, you 25 know, more or less. They could get out
641 of the way or they could stay in front 2 of it. 3 The guys that stayed in front of it, 4 you know, he come moving at a slow 5 pace. And, you know, you're not going 6 to stop a car moving at a slow pace, 7 and then that's what he did. And 8 that's what started the shooting. They 9 got scared." 10 Now, we can agree on one (1) thing, and 11 that is that the grammar is less than perfect, but what 12 I'm suggesting is that you very clearly indicated to the 13 SIU that, from your perspective, what started the 14 shooting was the police being scared when the car drove 15 into them; am I right? 16 A: It's possible. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Now, last, I want to ask you a little 21 bit about -- about the ambulance. Nicholas Cottrelle was 22 taken to the hospital, I'm going to suggest to you, in an 23 ambulance; am I right? 24 A: Like I said, I'm just going by when 25 he was laying in the backseat, his father was crying,
651 everybody's yelling for an ambulance. I went out, I 2 yelled for an ambulance. And I clearly heard the police 3 say the ambulances were for them. 4 If an ambulance had come along and took 5 him, that was good; because I don't know. 6 Q: Okay. So you don't know. All right. 7 Well, moving backwards for a moment, was Nicholas 8 Cottrelle's mother present when -- when you had this 9 alleged dialogue with the police about the ambulance? 10 A: No. There was a number of people and 11 people were all yelling. 12 Q: Okay. And -- 13 A: It wasn't alleged. It was my 14 statement. 15 Q: I understand. And where were you 16 when this conversation took place? 17 A: At the gate. 18 Q: At the gate? 19 A: I had yelled from in front of the 20 car. 21 Q: All right, let's go slowly here. 22 Could you point out where you were? 23 A: It's the wrong map. 24 Q: Yeah, we'll need the -- the map of 25 the exterior so that we can see the intersection of 21
661 and Army Camp Road. I'm sorry. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Just while Mr. Millar is -- is 6 obtaining that, perhaps I can ask you a couple of 7 questions, because I didn't give him any notice. Oh, 8 there we are. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There it is. 10 THE WITNESS: Where is your pointer 11 stick? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Just -- I'll get it. 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me, 18 Commissioner. I'll just -- I'm going to -- I've just had 19 a technical problem here. It's frozen. 20 THE WITNESS: Did you say you had another 21 question to ask? 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 24 Q: Sure. You can make yourself 25 comfortable and sit down. You were in the area of the
671 gate and where were the police? 2 A: All way down the outside of the gate. 3 Right down to Highway 21. 4 Q: All right. Well, the police officer 5 that made the comment was precisely where? 6 A: Just out -- out by the gate on south 7 -- south side of the gate. 8 Q: Okay. And I asked you about Nicholas 9 Cottrelle's mother and you said there were a bunch of 10 people there. Was she one of the people who -- 11 A: I -- I don't recall. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: I remember his father because he was 14 crying. 15 Q: Sure. Well, I can understand that. 16 And what I'm going to suggest is that she indicated to 17 the police that an ambulance was needed for her son, Nick 18 Cottrelle, who had been shot. 19 Now is that -- is that possible? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And what I'm going to 22 suggest to you is that she was told that they would not 23 bring an ambulance into the Camp but she had to bring him 24 out to their location. Is that possible? 25 A: I don't know what she -- I can't
681 speak for her. I can just tell you what happened when I 2 yelled for an ambulance and what they yelled back. 3 Q: See, what I'm going to suggest to you 4 is that what -- what was made clear by the police in that 5 exchange is that they weren't going to bring an ambulance 6 into the Camp but that Mr. Cottrelle would have to be 7 brought outside. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But he 9 can't -- 10 THE WITNESS: Like I said, I can't speak 11 for her. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- talk -- 13 Yes, Mr. Scullion...? 14 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm not sure if I 15 need to formally object. He's not aware of any 16 discussion. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, he can't 18 speak -- 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: So he can't speak to 20 it, he's speculating and Mr. Sandler's asking if it's 21 possible. Well, anything's possible. 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: No, I'm asking -- I'm 23 asking in terms of what he said. I'm not interested in 24 his mother any more, I -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No.
691 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'll ask the question 2 and I think it will be clear. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 5 Q: What I'm going to suggest to you that 6 what the officers did not say was that the ambulance is 7 only for the police. What the officer said is that the 8 ambulance would not be brought into the camp. Mr. 9 Cottrelle would have to be brought out, is that -- 10 A: The exact -- the exact words were, 11 the -- the ambulance is only for our guys. 12 Q: Okay, so -- 13 A: Those were the exact words. 14 Q: Those are the exact words. Okay. 15 And can you tell us anything about more about the officer 16 who said that? 17 A: No. I couldn't tell you, 'cause 18 they were hollering from the dark, the cowards. 19 Q: They were hollering from the dark? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: All right. With the benefit of the 22 diagram now, could you -- could you point out to the 23 Commissioner where you were when this exchange took 24 place? 25 A: Right here. Right here. Right at
701 the -- right at the gate area. 2 Q: Okay. Right at the gate -- at the -- 3 at what is marked as -- as the crossroad -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- or the intersection on the lower 6 left-hand corner of the diagram and the police officer 7 was where? 8 A: The police officers were in this area 9 here. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: All the way down. 12 Q: Immediately to the left -- 13 A: Well -- 14 Q: -- and at -- at the intersection at 15 Highway 21? 16 A: Well, we were at Highway 21, but I'm 17 -- I'm referring to just outside of the gate. That's 18 where I'm referring to. 19 Q: Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 20 Those are all my questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 22 Mr. Sandler. I think this would be a good time to take a 23 morning break and then Mr. Roland, after break? 24 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 25 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes.
711 2 --- Upon recessing at 11:10 a.m. 3 --- Upon resuming at 11:26 a.m. 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 6 resumed. Please be seated. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 8 morning, Mr. Roland. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Good morning. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Yes, 11 please. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. Cloud, my name's 15 Ian Roland. I act for the Ontario Provincial Police 16 Association. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: I'm going to ask you some questions. 19 First about hunting in the army camp after May '93. And 20 as I understand your evidence that you did hunt on the 21 army camp property, on the base, after May '93 and you 22 did it with others; you rarely if ever, hunted alone, I 23 gather. 24 A: I always hunted, usually, with my 25 brothers.
721 Q: With your brothers? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. Did you hunt with -- with 4 David George? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay, so you didn't -- did you at any 7 time see David George with a sawed-off shotgun? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. Did you hunt with Marlin 10 Simon? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did you hunt with Scott Ewart? 13 A: Don't even know who that is. 14 Q: You don't know who that is. Okay. 15 Did you hunt with Hector Jabeaux (phonetic)? 16 Q: Don't know who that is. 17 A: You don't know that either? Okay. 18 Q: So, what you're saying is, you really 19 just hunted with your brothers? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Can you identify anybody else you 22 hunted with? 23 A: My brother-in-law. 24 Q: Who's that? 25 A: Rudy Bressette, Carl Loud (phonetic).
731 Q: Sorry? 2 A: Carol Loud, Dwayne Bressette, Arnold 3 Bressette. Those are about the only other guys. 4 Q: All right. And were these persons 5 that you hunted with living in the Camp? 6 A: No. 7 Q: They were people from where; Kettle 8 Point? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. Now, let me just 11 understand your involvement with the -- with the Camp 12 from May '93 to July 29, '95. That's the period in which 13 you and others, and you told us your family, were camping 14 along Highway 21 or back south from Highway -- north from 15 Highway 21. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And do I understand it that you were 18 there only periodically, from time to time? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that your main residence was in 21 Kettle Point? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And do I have it right that your main 24 residence remained in Kettle Point from that time until 25 the summer of 2001?
741 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And so I gather you -- 3 did you overnight -- did you stay overnight at all at the 4 base in that period of time from May '93 to July '95? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: That was what? In the summertime in 7 tents or? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yes? All right. Now let me turn to 10 -- to the occupation of the barracks from July 29, '95. 11 And you've told us that you visited the barracks that 12 day, right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yes. And you told us that your 15 parents moved into the barracks? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: When did they move into the barracks? 18 Was it that day or shortly thereafter? 19 A: Shortly thereafter. 20 Q: Did you sleep overnight at the 21 barracks at all in '95? 22 A: No. No. 23 Q: No? You continued to reside in 24 Kettle Point and you didn't -- you didn't stay with your 25 parents or with others overnight at all in the barracks?
751 A: No. 2 Q: No. And I gather you, though, 3 visited the barracks -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- from July 29, '95 to visit your 6 parents and others frequently? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I gather you were aware of who 9 was living in the barracks? 10 A: I didn't know who was all -- living 11 in all the barracks. 12 Q: You didn't. You were aware, I take 13 it, in a general way though, you'd see people there in 14 the barracks on these visits? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you had a sense of at least, if 17 not exactly where they were living, who was there? 18 A: On a couple of buildings. 19 Q: Yes. All right. And you've told us 20 that your parents continued to reside in the barracks and 21 indeed your father still resides there -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- but your mother at some stage 24 moved back to Kettle Point? 25 A: Yes.
761 Q: And I take it you continued to visit 2 your father -- your mother and father and then your 3 father fairly frequently at the barracks? 4 A: Can you -- can you -- 5 Q: That you continued to visit your 6 parents and when your -- when your mother moved back to 7 Kettle Point, your father, on a frequent basis while he 8 continued to reside at the barracks? 9 A: Are you referring to '95? 10 Q: And after. Until you moved in in 11 2001. 12 A: Yes. I continued to visit. 13 Q: And I gather you'd visit on a weekly 14 basis, would you? 15 A: As much as I could. 16 Q: Okay. Does that mean more than one a 17 week? 18 A: Oh yeah. 19 Q: Everyday? 20 A: If I could. 21 Q: All right. And so going to the 22 barracks everyday or almost everyday, I gather you would 23 see the other occupants -- the other occupiers of the 24 barracks upon these visits? 25 A: Sometimes.
771 Q: And you'd become familiar with who is 2 living there? 3 A: No. I mind my own business. 4 Q: I see. 5 A: I -- I -- there were some. 6 Q: Did you attend meetings there from 7 time to time? 8 A: No. 9 Q: I thought that I heard you were a 10 committee representative of the occupiers. 11 A: No. 12 Q: No? All right. When you moved into 13 the barracks in 2001, did you become then more familiar 14 with the people residing in the barracks? 15 A: Until, yeah, about a year later. 16 Q: When did you start working on 17 security at the gate? 18 A: I believe it was July 2001. 19 Q: That's when you moved in? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And being -- having that 22 responsibility I gather you would then be very familiar 23 with who was coming and going? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 25 Scullion...?
781 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Objection if I may, 2 Mr. Roland. We're now in 2001. We're six (6) years off 3 the date in question that we're looking at. 4 My objection is to anything after 1995, 5 unless it relates to what was occurring at the time that 6 the Inquiry is looking into. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 8 going to ask him some more questions about -- 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, I was going to ask 10 -- I'm going to tie this up, if My Friend would bear with 11 me. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're going 13 to tie it to the incidents? 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, we'll 16 bear with you for a bit. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 20 Q: I take it in 2001, that you -- you 21 then became very familiar with who was living in the -- 22 in the barracks? 23 A: Not really. 24 Q: Well, didn't you have to check them 25 coming and going? Isn't that your job?
791 A: I checked people I didn't know. 2 Q: Yeah. And so if you knew them, you 3 didn't -- if you knew them, you saw them, identified them 4 and knew they lived there? 5 A: Yeah. But I didn't -- I didn't 6 follow people around and, you know, I didn't follow them 7 to see which building they went to. 8 Q: All right. I'm not talking about 9 which building for the moment. I'm just talking about 10 who was living in the barracks. 11 You were very aware of who was living in 12 the barracks in 2001? 13 A: What's this have to do with what 14 happened in '96? 15 Q: If you would just bear with me -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 17 minute -- 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- I ask the questions 19 and you answer them. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Mr. Cloud. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, Commissioner, 22 I'm going to echo Mr. Scullion's objection. If My -- and 23 My Friend said that he was going to tie it up, but 2001, 24 he hasn't. 2001 is not 1995, and I simply think that who 25 was living there in 2001 is irrelevant to the events of
801 1995. And -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It appears 3 to be relevant. He says he can tie it up. Mr. Roland, 4 do you want to tell us how this is relevant? 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, if I get -- if I 6 get -- I'm going to ask the witness, I'll ask the witness 7 about the people that lived, that he knew -- I'm trying 8 to get the witness to acknowledge that he knew who was 9 living there in 2001, in the barracks, and then ask him 10 whether those were, as far as he could recall, the same 11 people that lived in the barracks back in 1995. The same 12 or different. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not -- 14 I'm not -- yes, Mr. Scullion? 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: And I have a point. If 16 my -- this is cross-examination. I'm trying to get there 17 and -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know. 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- I -- I get 20 interrupted. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, Mr. 22 Scullion is entitled to make an objection. He's made an 23 objection. Let's hear it. 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I do have an 25 objection. He has said what he knows about 1995, as to
811 how is living in the barracks. My objection is to Mr. 2 Roland who's looking to get the evidence out regarding 3 2001 on the premise that he's going to link it back to 4 1995. 5 He's now indicated how he's going to link 6 it. He's going to link it back to the original question, 7 which is Mr. Cloud said he didn't know. So my objection 8 is to where this is going, the linkage is tenuous at 9 best, and I suggest that the answer's already been given, 10 he didn't know who was in the barracks in 1995. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I 12 think he -- he said that. I think you should try to keep 13 your questions to the period in question, Mr. Roland. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: Mr. Cloud, I'm -- I'm not asking 18 about 1995, in what building people lived, but did you 19 have a sense of who was there as an occupier in the 20 barracks in 1995, in 1996 and 1997, having visited almost 21 on a daily basis? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You have no sense? 24 A: No. I -- I did not know. I know 25 where Glenny lived, and I know where Judas lived --
821 Q: Now -- 2 A: -- that was it. 3 Q: -- see, you and I are not talking the 4 same thing. You -- you think I'm asking where they 5 lived, that is what particular building. I'm not asking 6 you what particular building they lived in. 7 I'm simply asking you, did you know who 8 lived in the barracks area them -- itself, the base? Did 9 you have a sense of that in 1995, 1996 and 1997? 10 A: I don't see how it's relevant. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, again, 12 you say in 1995 and then you add in 1996 and 7. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 15 perhaps you should confine it to '95. At least, let's 16 start there. Let's see if he knows the answer to that 17 and then -- 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we'll see 20 where that goes. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 23 Q: Did you know who was living there in 24 1995? 25 A: No.
831 Q: In the barracks itself? 2 A: NO. 3 Q: How about 1996? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why is it 5 important to know about '96, now? 6 THE WITNESS: Can you just ask the 7 question you're trying to get to? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 9 minute, Mr. Cloud. Why is it important to know about 10 1996 and 1997? 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: Because I'm going to 12 take him to -- I'm going to take him to something that he 13 said to the SIU in 1997, about the occupiers. 14 And I'm trying to determine if -- if in 15 his -- it's his recollection is the same or different 16 occupiers in 1997 as compared to 1995. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And -- and 18 why is that important -- 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, it -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- '97 and 21 '95. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 24 that I see the sig -- 25
841 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: Well, let me then take you, sir, let 3 me take you directly to the reference. And it's a 4 reference that is found in the SIU report of 1997, when 5 you were interviewed by them. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which one? 7 There are -- 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's -- it's document 9 number 1005490. And it's called the "SIU Follow-up 10 Report". 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it in 12 this material that I have, Mr. Millar? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's not in the 14 material you have because this is not a document prepared 15 by this witness. It's a document prepared by the SIU. 16 It's not the witness' statement or -- the witness has his 17 statements and it's not -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It was one 19 of the documents that was part of the productions, 20 though, was it? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's part of the SIU 22 production. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 24 Okay, 1005490, is that the number you gave? 25
851 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 4 have it in that binder, I don't think. You don't have it 5 in that binder, Mr. Cloud. 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: We know -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 8 Scullion? 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- if we're 10 referring to a specific passage, I understand My Friend 11 has an extra copy if that would be okay to pass to the 12 witness so he can follow along. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you're 14 referring him to a particular document, perhaps if there 15 are any copies of it. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: I was going to read from 17 it so as not to -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mis-state 19 it. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- cause trouble about 21 putting it in. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 23 You could tell us what you're reading from, Mr. Roland. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
861 Q: Okay, I'm reading from the notes of 2 the SIU that were prepared by those SIU officers that 3 interviewed Mr. Cloud on September 25th, 1997. You know 4 that that's his second statement that's been produced. 5 The recorded -- the SIU recording was dated September 6 25th, 1997. 7 And in the document I'm referring you to 8 at Page 4 of 7, from the middle page -- middle of the 9 page, or a little below the middle of page, it reads: 10 "At 11:30 a.m. I..." 11 Referring to the author, the SIU officer, 12 "... went with Cloud to Kettles On 13 restaurant and bought him a coffee". 14 And stopping there, Mr. Cloud, do you 15 recall that? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: "At this time he explained that he 18 did not like going to Stoney Point 19 reserve, that he does not agree with 20 what is happening there. He states 21 that there is a gang in there, mafia 22 style, and all they do is smoke and 23 drink and grow dope. 24 He has confronted them on this on many 25 occasions. He also states that at the
871 Army camp they are turning their own 2 people away at the gate, even an old 3 woman who was an original inhabitant of 4 the Stoney Point reserve back in 1942 5 when the Army took over. Those -- 6 these people at the main gate would not 7 allow her in on the property. 8 Cloud stated this to the investigator 9 in an attempt to explain why he was 10 reluctant to speak to the SIU 11 investigators." 12 You see that, Mr. Cloud? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And do you recall that? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did -- you don't recall that? Could 17 you have said that to him? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Do you say there -- this is simply 20 not accurate? This wasn't said by you? 21 A: No. 22 Q: You say they're just making this up? 23 A: That's not what I said. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All he can 25 say is he didn't say it to him.
881 THE WITNESS: In my second statement that 2 -- what I made is this is Jim Kennedy's words. It's not 3 mine. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. It's what -- 5 that's -- it's his -- 6 THE WITNESS: I spoke with him at the 7 fire hall and I -- and if you notice, the one part up 8 here is accurate. That I left at a high rate of speed is 9 because I waited for him, he never showed up. 10 We were supposed to meet at Judas' and the 11 only reason why we met at Kettle Point is because he 12 never showed up at Stoney Point. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, in any 19 event -- 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 22 Q: Let me back up on that. He says in 23 his note: 24 "While using the phone at the gate 25 house",
891 Referring to the SIU investigator using 2 the phone: 3 "Mike Cloud entered the Army Camp. At 4 11:15 a.m. once off the phone I was 5 notified by Layton Elijah who stated 6 that Mike Cloud had just left the camp 7 at a high rate of speed. Apparently he 8 hadn't expected me to be there that 9 early for the 11:30 meeting. I pursued 10 Cloud south on Highway 21 up to 140 11 Kilometres an hour, finally catching 12 him as he turned in the Kettle Point 13 reserve. 14 He pulled over at my signal and horn." 15 Do you recall that? 16 A: No, I went to the fire hall. 17 Q: Well, was it your view at that time, 18 apart from whether you said this, was it your view at 19 that time or not, that there was a gang in Stoney Point 20 who was mafia style? 21 A: No. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 23 Scullion, I mean he's entitled to ask him these 24 questions. 25 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: We're in '97 now.
901 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are we? 2 '97? 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: 1997. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 5 sorry. I misunderstood. 6 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: My objection is a 7 reiteration of my earlier objections and I apologize to 8 My Friend for continuing to standing up but ű 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 10 you're right. I think we should try -- we've got enough 11 problems with the period of time in question without 12 going beyond. I don't think it's necessary. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, Mr. Commissioner, 14 quite frankly I tried to establish, and I was interrupted 15 by counsel and by you, to try establish whether the same 16 people were there in '97 and 2001, in '97 and '95. And I 17 wasn't allowed to do that. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he 19 doesn't know the people who were there. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well I was trying to get 21 -- get him to acknowledge what he knew and what he didn't 22 know, but I get interrupted from doing so. And then you 23 say to me, well you can't ask about '97 not having 24 allowed me to try and establish whether they were the 25 same people in '95.
911 It seems to me that cross-examination has 2 to be -- have a little more latitude than this to be 3 effective. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 5 we've given a considerable amount of latitude on cross- 6 examination, Mr. Roland. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And perhaps Mr. Roland 8 could simply put names to the witness and ask the witness 9 if he really wants to achieve and assist the witness in 10 who -- helping the witness decide who -- if he refreshes 11 his memory as to who was there or not. If Mr. Roland 12 simply put the names that Mr. Roland wishes to illicit to 13 the witness. 14 This circuitous route simply doesn't do 15 anything as to suggesting to the witness who was there or 16 not. And if Mr. Roland has some names he wishes to put 17 to the witness, Commissioner, I suggest he do that. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You mean 19 names, Mr. Millar, of people who were there in 1995? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Who Mr. Roland thinks 21 was there in 1995 -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Yes. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and he can ask the 24 witness. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you
921 have an observation? 2 MS. JACKIE ESMOND: Yes. I'm not sure 3 that even getting out a list of names would be helpful 4 here. If Mr. Roland wants to know if there was a gang -- 5 a mafia style gang in 1995, then that perhaps will be 6 relevant and that is actually the question that he should 7 pose. Not who was living there at that time. 8 And just because they were living there it 9 doesn't mean that there was a mafia style gang in 1995, 10 which is what it seems to me would be the only relevant 11 thing to come out of this line of questioning. 12 THE WITNESS: I would like to add -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 14 THE WITNESS: -- why don't you bring Jim 15 Kennedy back here and ask him who made that statement 16 because I did not. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Mr. 18 Roland, try to keep your questioning to the period of 19 time in question. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well since the witness 21 denies as having said it, I don't think there's much use 22 pursuing it. The witness has denied -- we'll hear from, 23 no doubt, the SIU investigator about that. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We may or we 25 may not. We don't know, Mr. Roland, but you may ask to
931 have him called or you may suggest that we call him. But 2 we don't -- we don't know that at this point. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 5 Q: Mr. Cloud, as a Kettle Pointer in 6 1995, I take it you were involved in the affairs of the 7 Kettle Point Band and would attend Kettle Point Band 8 meetings from -- general meetings from time to time? 9 A: What meetings are you referring to? 10 Q: Well, let me ask you about a meeting 11 on August 1, 1995. It was a big meeting. The occupation 12 had just -- or the occupation of the barracks had just 13 occurred a couple of days earlier. 14 And do you remember there was a really 15 very substantial Kettle Point Band meeting August 1, '95, 16 at Kettle Point some hundred and fifty (150) to two 17 hundred (200) residents attended? Your mother attended. 18 And I take it you attended that meeting as 19 well? 20 A: I don't know. 21 Q: It was a meeting called by Tom 22 Bressette, the Chief. Do you remember that meeting? 23 A: Okay. What -- what date was that 24 again? 25 Q: August 1, '95. It was just after the
941 occupation of the barracks. It was a five (5) hour 2 meeting, long meeting and there were a hundred and fifty 3 (150) to two hundred (200) Kettle Point residents there. 4 A: Well, that was probably a meeting 5 maybe my mother went to. 6 Q: Yeah. You didn't -- you don't recall 7 attending that meeting? 8 A: No. 9 Q: No? Okay. And do you remember 10 reports of the meeting in the newspaper? 11 A: This report you're quoting from is 12 from Bernard George. 13 Q: I'm sorry, I wonder what you're 14 looking at? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't -- 16 THE WITNESS: I'm just going by this, 17 what you got that statement out of where at the beginning 18 of it it's a report -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 20 we're past that now, aren't we? I mean I'm not sure what 21 the witness is looking at. Perhaps that should be 22 retrieved. I think that was in another context. 23 THE WITNESS: Well, you should use proper 24 statements for the proper person. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's --
951 you're referring to a newspaper report of a meeting that 2 took place in August '95 now are you, Mr. Roland? 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: August 1, '95 at Kettle 4 Point. And it was a -- you were then the fire chief, I 5 gather. 6 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Perhaps Counsel 7 could help other Counsel in terms of referring to the 8 things that he's referring the witness to? 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I'm trying to 10 determine whether this witness was at this large 11 community meeting on August 1, '95, days after the 12 occupation of the barracks. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So far he's 14 said he doesn't remember and you were going to try and 15 refresh his memory. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't know what page he's 17 referring to now. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 20 Q: I'm not referring to any page. I'm 21 trying to refer to your memory of a large meeting called 22 by Tom Bressette shortly after the occupation of the 23 barracks in which -- 24 A: I wouldn't -- 25 Q: -- a large number of community
961 members at Kettle Point -- 2 A: Yeah, I wouldn't have been there. 3 Q: You would, so -- you would have? 4 A: I probably wouldn't have been there. 5 Q: I see. 6 A: Maybe my mother might have been 7 there. 8 Q: Yes, we know from the minutes of the 9 meeting that your mother was there. She spoke at that 10 meeting. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: But you don't recall being there 13 yourself? 14 A: I been at so many meetings from '95 15 to 2001 that I couldn't tell you as or not, like, 16 unofficial -- under official status for negotiations. So 17 I really couldn't tell you. But I don't believe I was at 18 no meeting called by Tom Bressette in that summer. 19 Q: All right. And do you remember the 20 newspaper reports of the meeting. It was reported, I 21 think, in all of the newspapers. Remember, it's at a 22 critical point just after the occupation of the barracks. 23 A: Does this have -- like -- is there a 24 -- a -- relevant to Ipperwash? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, if you
971 don't remember, Mr. Cloud -- 2 THE WITNESS: Okay, yeah -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you don't 4 remember. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I don't remember. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 9 Q: And you don't remember any newspaper 10 reports -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. And throughout this period, I 13 take it, you were involved in Kettle Point political 14 affairs? In fact, you ran for office in '90 -- as a 15 Councillor in '96, didn't you? 16 A: I believe so. 17 Q: Yes. And the newspaper reports that 18 I referred you to expressed a concern by the Kettle Point 19 community in August of '95 about outsiders being part of 20 the occupation of the barracks. 21 Now, do you remember that, there being a 22 concern in the community about outsiders? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You have no recollection of that? 25 A: No.
981 Q: Did you have any concern about out -- 2 the outsiders, that is non-Kettle/Stony Pointers being in 3 the barracks and -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- part of the occupation -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: -- in August of '95? 8 A: No. 9 Q: On your visits to the barracks, did 10 you -- did you learn or meet, either -- learn or meet a 11 number of persons who were not Kettle and Stony Pointers? 12 And I'll give you the names, Russell 13 Jewel. Did you meet him? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Do you know who he is? You ever met 16 him? 17 A: I kind of remember him. 18 Q: All right. Les Jewel? 19 A: I don't know him. 20 Q: You don't know him? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Buck Doxtator? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: You did meet him? 25 A: Yeah, I know Buck.
991 Q: Yeah, and did you know him back then 2 in August of '95? 3 A: No. Not that well, anyway, but I 4 know -- I've seen him around. 5 Q: And you knew him as an occupier who 6 was living in the barracks after the occupation of the 7 barracks, July 29, '95? 8 A: I just knew Buck was around. I 9 didn't know if he was living there or not. 10 Q: Okay. What about Gabriel Doxtator, 11 his brother? Did you know him? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Robert Isaac? 14 A: I -- I -- I knew Robert but I didn't 15 know him that well. 16 Q: All right. And was he -- did you 17 know him as an occupier of the barracks in '95? 18 A: I knew him as a supporter, yes. 19 Q: Yes. And Sam Isaac? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Cloud, 21 I'm sorry. I'm having a little trouble hearing you. I 22 wonder -- 23 THE WITNESS: Oh. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if I 25 could ask you to -- thank you very much. No, that's all
1001 right. You can speak into that mike all right, it's 2 just... 3 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 5 better, much better when you get a little -- 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- closer. 8 Your voice comes up. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 11 Q: So you didn't know Sam Isaac? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No. How about Ed Isaac? Big Ed, I 14 think he's referred to. 15 A: Well, yeah, I know him now but what's 16 the relevant? 17 Q: I'm asking whether in '95, in August 18 of '95 did you know him as a -- one (1) of the occupiers? 19 A: I don't know. 20 Q: How about Al George, did you know him 21 as an occupier in '95? 22 A: No, but what's the relevance? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Cloud, 24 if there's some question about the relevance, one (1) of 25 these Counsel will object and I have to make a ruling.
1011 So he's entitled to ask the question and if nobody 2 objects, then you can do your best to answer it. 3 THE WITNESS: It just seems so 4 irrelevant. He's talking about things that have no 5 relevance whatsoever. I can't see how -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 7 Unfortunately -- 8 THE WITNESS: -- it has anything to do 9 with -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 11 unfortunately, he gets the right to ask the questions. 12 If nobody objects, then we can -- you can assume that the 13 question is relevant and do your best to answer it. 14 THE WITNESS: To me, it seems like he's 15 trying to illicit an answer. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he's - 17 - he's got the right to cross-examine you, and that's 18 what he's trying to do. So just do the best you can to 19 answer the questions. 20 If you can't answer them, if you don't 21 remember or you don't know, that's what you say. You're 22 doing fine so far. Just -- just answer the questions as 23 best you can. 24 THE WITNESS: Go ahead then. 25
1021 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: Ed Isaac, did you -- 3 A: No. 4 Q: -- you knew him as an occupier in 5 August '95? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No. Al George -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- did you know him as an occupier 10 in -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- August '95? Dutch French? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Same question, did you know or meet 15 Bruce Elijah during that period of time? 16 A: No. 17 Q: You didn't know him? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No? How about Bob Anton (phonetic)? 20 A: No. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Mr. Cloud, let me ask you about 25 whether you had any knowledge of a cross-culture
1031 awareness two (2) day crash course that occurred at the 2 Ipperwash base in July '95. Did you have any awareness 3 that that had occurred? 4 A: No. 5 Q: You knew nothing about that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. Mr. George -- or Mr. 8 Cloud, let me turn then to -- if I could, to August the - 9 - or sorry, September the 6th. And you've told us that 10 there were -- I think you said about a dozen occupiers 11 along the fence inside the Park when you arrived -- 12 A: To the best of my recollection, yes. 13 Q: -- on -- on September the 6th, as the 14 police were about to or had started confronting the 15 occupiers in the area of the fence. And let me, if I 16 could, ask you if you could identify those persons who 17 were -- who you saw there? 18 A: No, I cannot. 19 Q: You can't. All right. Let me tell 20 you that the evidence has been, from David George, who 21 was there, that there were some twenty-three (23) male 22 Native occupiers at the confrontation at the fence at 23 that time. Not twelve (12) but he named twenty-three 24 (23), and interestingly he didn't name you. If he had 25 named you it would have been twenty-four (24).
1041 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: Now, and he was able to identify each 3 of them by name. I -- I take it you didn't -- in light 4 of that, you admit, it's possible you may be 5 underestimating the number that were there. There may 6 have been twenty-three (23) or twenty-four (24). 7 A: Well, maybe fifteen (15). I didn't 8 count the women and children. 9 Q: Well, he counted twenty-three (23) 10 without counting women and children. 11 A: You're speaking about Dave. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: I've already given you my testimony - 14 Q: All right. 15 A: -- and I'm not changing it, and to 16 the best of my recollection. 17 Q: Are you counting your brother as 18 well, Joseph, as part of that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No. Because he wasn't there, at the 21 fence, he was -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- somewhere else? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: In -- but in the Park?
1051 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I'm just referring to what I remember 4 of the guys along the fence. I'm not taking up everybody 5 that was in the whole area. 6 Q: All right. And you don't remember 7 any one (1) individual you're saying, apart from I think 8 you've told us Dudley, you remember him? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And Slippery, you remember him? 11 A: Well, I remember some of the guys, 12 like Buck, you know, like, Buck and Worm and -- but I 13 don't remember everybody. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Kokomo. What's the point? Like, 16 what are you getting at? That's what I -- I've already 17 given my -- my statement. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. -- Mr. Cloud, Mr. 19 Roland has the right to ask you these questions. And so 20 that I would ask that you simply try the best to answer 21 the questions that he asks. 22 If there is an objection by Mr. Scullion 23 or myself or anyone else to the question, the -- we will 24 -- an objection will be made. But if there isn't I would 25 ask that you answer the questions because Mr. Roland is
1061 entitled to ask the questions. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 5 Q: I gather, Mr. Cloud, you didn't 6 actually count the number of people there, it's your 7 impression there were twelve (12) or up to fifteen (15)? 8 A: Yeah, I didn't count them. 9 Q: But it was -- and you've told us that 10 you remember Cecil Bernard George? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you remember Stewart Bradley 13 George, Worm? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes. And you remember Roderick 16 George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you've told us you remember 19 Clayton George? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: How about Elwood George, you remember 22 him? 23 A: No. 24 Q: J.T. Cousins? 25 A: No.
1071 Q: Kevin Simon? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Robert Isaac? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You've told us you remember Buck 6 Doxtator? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: How about Dutch French? 9 A: No. 10 Q: You didn't even know who he was, I 11 take it? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Gabrielle Doxtator? 14 A: No. 15 Q: You don't remember him? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Chucky George? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Do you remember Nicholas Cottrelle? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: He was there? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Stacey George? 24 A: I -- I can't remember, to tell you 25 the truth.
1081 Q: Okay. How about Jeremiah George? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You don't remember him? 4 A: He wasn't there. I'm pretty sure of 5 it. 6 Q: And you told us that Glenn George, 7 Glenny wasn't there. 8 A: No. 9 Q: In fact you'd seen him just a few 10 minutes before at Cliff's cabin? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And as I heard your evidence, you 13 told him that, You better get down there pretty quickly 14 to the Park because something was -- big was happening? 15 A: I can't remember. 16 Q: I think you told us that yesterday. 17 A: I believe I said something was going 18 to happen. 19 Q: Well, your -- at page 210 of your 20 evidence yesterday, you said in speaking about being at 21 Cliff's cabin and finding Glenny there with his big dump 22 truck. You said: 23 "I just told Glenny, I says, we better 24 go to the Park because there's a 25 serious -- there's serious shit going
1091 to happen." 2 Remember saying that yesterday? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Is that true? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. He didn't go with you? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And you then went to the barracks to 9 look for your parents? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: So you -- you went into their 12 residence at the barracks? 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: And you didn't find them? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And from that you then proceeded down 17 to the Park? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Back at the fence and during 20 the confrontation, do you remember Wes -- Wesley George? 21 A: No. 22 Q: You don't remember him. How about 23 Warren George? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Hartley George?
1101 A: No. 2 Q: Dale Plain (phonetic)? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Al George? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Now you've told us in your evidence 7 yesterday and today that when Slippery jumped over the 8 fence, he didn't have a stick in his hand. And Mr. 9 Sandler this morning suggested that Slippery will say 10 that he did. 11 And to -- in fairness to you, I want you 12 to reconsider your evidence about that, because in light 13 of what I'm going to read to you which was evidence that 14 Cecil Bernard George gave under Oath on December 15, 1997 15 at a trial in Sarnia, in which David George and Warren 16 George were being tried for criminal charges arising out 17 of the incident, all right? 18 And Slippery George, Cecil Bernard George 19 testified for the defence and he said when he was asked 20 this question: 21 "And when the police retreated, you 22 walked back out into the parking lot 23 area?" 24 Answer, --" 25 Remember these answers are Cecil Bernard
1111 George, 2 "Yes, I did. 3 Question: And other people did, too? 4 Answer: I believe there was a couple 5 other men that came out behind me. 6 Question: And they had sticks? 7 Answer: I don't know what they had. 8 Question: You had a stick? 9 Answer: Yes, I did." 10 Okay, you with me? 11 A: Which -- which report are you 12 referring to? 13 Q: I'm referring to a trial that 14 occurred -- it's a transcript of a trial that occurred on 15 December 15, '97, that is a little over two (2) years 16 after the events and Cecil -- 17 A: Well, you kind of lost me there. 18 Q: -- he testified at that trial, and 19 I'm reading it from the transcript of his sworn evidence. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: And he says under sworn testimony he 22 did have a stick. 23 A: Maybe he had -- maybe he may have but 24 under my recognition -- recollection I never seen another 25 stick. I seen his -- I -- to me --
1121 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 2 Scullion. 3 THE WITNESS: -- he was holding his arm 4 up in the air. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 6 Scullion? 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: We've now heard that 8 evidence three (3) times from this witness -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know. 10 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: We're going over the 11 same ground. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I know. 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: And simply other 14 evidence given by other witnesses that appears to be in - 15 - potential witnesses, that appears to be in conflict. 16 He's still saying the same -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- thing that he's 19 testified to. He hasn't changed his -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's just 21 asking him to -- he's giving him the evidence, he's 22 asking him if it affects his testimony. So far it 23 hasn't. 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Understood. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know
1131 what else we can get out of this, but so far it hasn't 2 affected his version or his recollection. 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 6 Q: Let me see if this helps you, because 7 in that -- that very same trial, Cecil Bernard George was 8 asked about whether he hit any of the -- officers with 9 his stick. He asked the question: 10 "You hit one (1) of the officers with 11 your stick, broke his shield? 12 Answer: I don't know if I broke his 13 shield or I know I hit it. I think I 14 hit the shield. 15 Question: Two-handed blow? 16 Answer: I think it might have been 17 just one (1) hand. 18 Question: You heard the shield -- 19 shield break? 20 Answer: Well, there were other -- 21 there was other -- sounds like glass 22 breaking all over." 23 So Cecil Bernard George testified under 24 Oath that he not only had a stick, but he used it -- used 25 it to -- to hit a shield of a police officer. He calls
1141 it a one (1) handed blow and he heard the sound of glass 2 breaking all over. Does that help you? 3 A: He may very well have done that, but 4 at that particular time he did not. He may have -- 5 you're reading a statement from a trial where we were all 6 fighting with the police beforehand. 7 What I am saying is, is when he jumped out 8 that time I told him to get back and he went out there 9 thinking just because he was a councillor, put his hand 10 up in the air, identifying himself as a councillor, to 11 the best of my knowledge I never seen no stick and I seen 12 him get knocked out and that's how it started. 13 He may have been fighting with the police 14 or I should say he probably was, earlier, but not at that 15 time. And the only one that come out behind him was me, 16 because I was trying to get him to come back. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Apparently 18 reading that portion of the transcript does not help him, 19 so I think I'd move on. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 22 Q: All right, let me again put to you, 23 Cecil Bernard George testimony about what happened when 24 he was -- he came into confrontation with the police at 25 that occasion, right?
1151 Because he says that he wielded a stick, 2 hit a shield, heard the sound of -- of what sounded like 3 glass breaking all over and then he was taken by the 4 police. And this is what he says. The question: 5 "You were -- I don't know if you know, 6 were you overrun by officers? In other 7 words, you went down and officers 8 continue running ahead of you. I 9 should put that another way. Were you 10 run over and the officers continue 11 running towards the Park? 12 A: I don't know. I just know I was 13 knocked down and I don't know what 14 happened after that. 15 Q: And you resisted to some extent? 16 A: I didn't resist. I was trying to 17 get away from them, to what they were 18 doing to me. 19 Q: Okay. Well, all right, you were 20 trying to get away and the way you did 21 that was you were kicking out at the 22 officers who are around there? 23 Answer: I felt like an animal being 24 beat. So I just tried to get away, 25 like -- like any normal human being --
1161 being would try to do. 2 Q: Can you explain what you did 3 specifically? 4 A: I curled up in a ball and I kept 5 kicking my feet and hands, hoping that 6 they would stop." 7 Okay? Now, do you recall that? Do you 8 recall that he was trying to get away and kicking his 9 hands and feet? 10 A: I seen him clubbed in the back of the 11 head and drop. 12 Q: And you didn't see him kicking his 13 hands and -- and his feet? 14 A: The only thing I seen was a circle of 15 police around him, laying the boots to him. And it 16 wasn't just me, it was a number of guys, for us to risk 17 our lives to try and save him, because it looked like he 18 was being beaten to death. 19 You're -- you're reading his testimony. 20 I'm sure that's his testimony. What am I supposed to do 21 about it? 22 Q: Well, I -- 23 A: I can't say anything different about 24 what I seen. You're asking me to comment on what his 25 testimony is. That -- that's not mine.
1171 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not 2 affecting your testimony up to this point. That's fine. 3 Carry on. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 8 Q: Mr. Cloud, were you a member of the 9 Stoney Point Warrior Society? 10 A: I was just a protestor. 11 Q: Did you join the Stoney Point Warrior 12 Society? 13 A: We were just protestors trying to get 14 our land back. 15 Q: So do you know what I'm talking 16 about, the Stoney Point Warrior Society? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Now, you told us that on 19 September the 6th, when the shooting started, there was - 20 - you thought there was an awful lot of shooting going 21 on. 22 Can you give us an estimate how many shots 23 you think were fired? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1181 A: I can't give you an estimate but I 2 can tell you the bullets, the shots rang out non-stop -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- from a distance of -- when I -- 5 when I was behind the bus, zigzagging, heading back 6 towards the car and up to the point where I had to yell 7 at the girls and get them in the car, the shots never 8 stopped, so, a lot. And that was a period of a good 9 seventy-five (75) yards. So there was a lot. 10 Q: I -- I suspect we're going to hear 11 evidence that -- from the police that there were a total 12 of twenty-four (24) shots fired. Is that more or less 13 than what you -- 14 A: That's an impossible number. I don't 15 believe that for a second. 16 Q: You think it would be more than that? 17 A: Much higher. 18 Q: Okay. On the map -- or the schematic 19 diagram that's behind you, it's Exhibit 79, you've 20 indicated a fire location. 21 A: Right there. 22 Q: I think you've marked the fire 23 location as "1". And what's the -- what was the distance 24 from that location of the fire to the fence line, in your 25 estimation?
1191 A: From here to the wall. 2 Q: So you'd say about thirty (30) feet 3 maybe? 4 A: Maybe -- maybe about from where I am. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Cloud, 6 we can't hear you when you're over there. They can't get 7 it -- 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: I think -- I think the witness has 11 indicated about thirty (30) feet. 12 A: Okay. From here to the wall. 13 Q: All right. And it was that fire that 14 was illuminating the scene? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And there was a picnic 17 table that was on fire in that, what you described as a 18 large bonfire? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yeah. Okay. And I gather that's 21 where you got the burning stick? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yes. And you used the stick, I take 24 it, with -- with it burning at one (1) end to threaten 25 the police, wave at the police, to keep them from
1201 advancing? 2 A: Well, I was scared. I had it in my 3 hand, like, it was just a little hunk of -- piece -- 4 little -- just a little hunk -- a piece of wood. I just 5 grabbed it and threw it because I was getting overrun. 6 Q: I see. You're -- the Witness is 7 indicating a piece about fifteen (15) to eighteen (18) 8 inches long; is that fair? 9 A: Roughly. 10 Q: All right. And you didn't wave it at 11 the police to try and keep them from coming further? 12 A: No. There was -- at one (1) point -- 13 there -- there was a broom -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- laying there and the edge of it 16 was burning and I -- I did have that one (1) because it 17 was a broom handle and I just went like that once and 18 then I threw it at them. Just -- that was like -- 19 Q: And it was burning -- sorry? 20 A: And that was it. 21 Q: And that broom handle, you've 22 indicated, was about four (4) or five (5) feet long? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And it was burning at one (1) end as 25 well?
1211 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that -- is that what you waved at 3 the police? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you threw that as well -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- towards the police? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I gather in both instances of 10 throwing these two (2) burning pieces of wood that was in 11 the direction of the police and thus throwing it into the 12 sandy parking lot? 13 A: It was in the direction of the 14 police. 15 Q: Okay. Who were then in the sandy 16 parking lot? 17 A: Along the fence line. 18 Q: I see. And did you see where they 19 landed? 20 A: On their heads. 21 Q: I see. You actually hit them with 22 this -- the -- these burning pieces of wood, did you? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And I gather that you 25 assumed when you heard the words, Red coming through, or
1221 something like that, that was referring to one (1) or 2 other of these -- these pieces of wood that you were 3 throwing? 4 A: This was after the fact. 5 Q: You -- you made that assumption after 6 the fact? 7 A: No, this was -- this was after the 8 fact. That was shortly -- shortly before the last battle 9 where they said that. I don't know what it meant. Maybe 10 they were referring to the fire, I don't know. 11 Q: Well, -- 12 A: But they -- the -- the police could 13 clearly see what it was, little hunks of wood. That's -- 14 they could clearly see it. What they were talking about 15 when they said, There's red coming in, I'm sure it had 16 nothing to do with it. I just figured it was an order of 17 some kind. I don't know what it meant, though. 18 Q: Mr. Cloud, let me take you to your 19 statement to the SIU of January 20, 1996. That's your 20 Tab 1 -- Tab 1? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And if you go to Page 5. 23 A: You're referring to my statement, 24 this time? 25 Q: Yes. On Page 5. You'll see just at
1231 the top, Mr. Kenny says: 2 "Now you swung a broom at them and they 3 backed off." 4 You say: 5 "Yes, well the tip of the broom was 6 burning, eh?" 7 Kenny: 8 "Okay." 9 You say: 10 "And I heard someone say there's red 11 coming in. I heard that. One (1) of 12 them was yelling in that the red coming 13 in -- the red coming in and when I -- 14 when I went, like, that -- they -- 15 like, there was all small flame on the 16 end of it, they went right back. They 17 got right away from the fence. And 18 that was -- 19 Kennedy asked you: 20 "What do you mean, there was red coming 21 in?" 22 You answer: 23 "That -- I don't -- that's what they 24 said." Kennedy: 25 "The Ontario Provincial Police?"
1241 You say: 2 "Yeah, they said there was red coming 3 in. I heard them clearly say that. I 4 just assumed they were referring to the 5 -- to the burning broom." 6 Does that help you remember that you 7 assumed they were referring to the burning broom because 8 it was happening at the time you were throwing the broom. 9 A: I remember I was being overrun -- I 10 was being overrun by police and I couldn't handle them 11 and that's the reason why I grabbed a little hunk of wood 12 anyway just to try and get them back because they were 13 going to come through and -- and I don't believe that -- 14 maybe I don't know, maybe they were afraid. 15 Well, do you know if they were referring 16 to the fire? Maybe that's what they were referring to. 17 Q: Well, that's what you assumed at the 18 time? 19 A: Maybe, yes. It was nine (9) years 20 ago. If that's what I assumed, maybe that's what I 21 assumed. 22 Q: Now you told us yesterday that you 23 heard two (2) shots initially and the second shot you 24 say, you know hit -- struck someone? 25 A: Yes.
1251 Q: And -- and let me ask you how you 2 knew that? How did you know that it struck someone? 3 A: I heard it hit his body. 4 Q: Did you see who it -- who it struck? 5 A: No. 6 Q: When this -- when the -- when the 7 shooting was going on there was an awful lot of yelling 8 going on at the same time wasn't there? 9 A: There was no mistaking it. None 10 whatsoever. 11 Q: And why do you say that? 12 A: There was no mistaking it. 13 Q: Yes. But tell us why you say that. 14 What about it was is no mistaking of it? 15 A: There was no mistaking it. It 16 sounded like -- like that. I've hunted deer all my life. 17 I know what it sounds like when someone -- something gets 18 hit with a bullet. 19 Q: And so it's -- what you're -- what 20 you're saying is, you heard something did you? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you heard something in the -- in 23 the -- a setting in which there's all kinds of noise, 24 people yelling, carrying on, both sides were yelling at 25 one another weren't they?
1261 A: It was close to me. It scared me. 2 Q: But you didn't look around to see who 3 it was? 4 A: No. Because right after that, one 5 (1) went by my ear. 6 Q: Now let me understand your 7 recollection of the bus. I'm looking again at Exhibit B- 8 79 -- sorry P, P as in Paul, seventy-nine (79) which is 9 behind you. 10 Can you tell us where you say the bus got 11 to? How far did it get along the road before it stopped? 12 Have you got the mike? 13 A: Over here. 14 Q: You're indicating a location that's 15 marked with a seven (7)? 16 A: Seven (7). 17 Q: That's as far as the bus got? 18 A: To my -- to my recollection. 19 Q: Yeah. And did you see the bus then 20 backup? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And it backed up from that location? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And how far did the car that was 25 following it get? Where did it -- what's its furthest
1271 west -- 2 A: No. No. The car wasn't following it. 3 Q: I'm sorry? 4 A: The car wasn't following it. 5 Q: All right. How far west did the car 6 get? Where -- what's its -- was the car's most westerly 7 location? 8 A: The car come through and it was going 9 -- it was just idling along slow like I explained. Same 10 with the bus. When the bus went through, the bus just 11 went through to push the bin away and went out like -- 12 Q: All I want to know is if you could 13 just indicate to us the westerly location of the car that 14 you saw? 15 A: The most westerly location of the car 16 was here. 17 Q: Okay. Oh sorry, that's number 8? 18 All right, thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: You can sit down now, Mr. Cloud. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1281 Q: Thank you, Mr. Cloud. Those are my 2 questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much, Mr. Roland. I think Mr. Downard is up now for 5 the former Premier Harris? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 10 Q: Mr. Cloud, my name's Peter Downard. 11 I act for the former Premier, Mike Harris, and I just 12 have a few questions for you about the issues we're 13 concerned with. 14 I heard you say several times in your 15 evidence that Stoney Point, Aazhoodena is your homeland, 16 right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And, for example, when there was this 19 fight with the police in the sandy parking lot we've been 20 talking about, you described the police as people who 21 were invading someone's homeland, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So when we're talking about a 24 homeland, this is a homeland of the Stoney Point people, 25 right?
1291 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I take it that the Army camp, the 3 former Army camp was part of the Stoney Point people's 4 homeland, as far as you were concerned, in September of 5 '95? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the -- the Park, and let's just 8 talk about for a moment the -- the -- the Park within 9 that -- that fence along the road there at the sandy 10 parking lot. I take it, then, in September of 1995, it 11 was your belief that the Park was part of the Stoney 12 Point people's homeland? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And to your belief in September of 15 1995, did that homeland also include the sandy parking 16 lot outside the fence? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: So, all this land we've spoken about, 19 the former Army camp, the Park inside the fence and the 20 sandy parking lot, you believed in September '95, that 21 was all part of the Stoney Point people's homeland? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And I take it that since, 24 in your belief, that was all part of the Stoney Point 25 people's homeland, your belief at the time was that the
1301 Stoney Point people should be able to possess all of that 2 land, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And to keep all of that land forever, 5 right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I take it your understanding was, 8 at the time, that the occupying group wanted to take that 9 homeland and keep it forever, right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, when you participated in the 12 occupation of the Park and the sandy parking lot in early 13 September of 1995, did it matter to you whether engaging 14 in that action was contrary to the laws of Canada and 15 Ontario? 16 A: Canada had already broken her own 17 laws. 18 Q: So does that mean that it did matter 19 to you or it didn't matter to you? 20 A: It did not matter to me because they 21 already broken their own laws. 22 Q: Now, in early September of 1995, did 23 you regard any land apart from the Army camp and the Park 24 inside the fence and the sandy parking lot, as part of 25 the homeland of the Stoney Point people?
1311 A: What do you mean? 2 Q: We -- we talked about how you 3 regarded in early September 1995, the homeland of the 4 Stoney Point people as including the old army camp, the 5 Park and that sandy parking lot. At that time did you 6 believe that the Stoney Point people's homeland included 7 any additional land? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: What was that? 10 A: Well, the map was wrong. The -- well 11 the -- can you put this map back up? 12 Q: Mr. Bell is going to try to do that. 13 Mr. Ross insists on getting word in, this is Exhibit P- 14 63. Mr. Ross was incorrect. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Okay. The map -- the map is -- is 19 different now. They're -- this -- our boundaries went up 20 further this way. 21 Q: Further to the west? 22 A: Now to my understanding it went out 23 further that way and here and on the highway. That was 24 my understanding. 25 Q: Okay. Well, you -- you've referred
1321 to areas to the west of the -- 2 A: West Ipperwash. 3 Q: Right. But west of the old army camp 4 borders and also to the east of the old army camp borders 5 and also the south, right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. So how far did the homeland go 8 to the west of the army camp border? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I believe to Ravenswood Road. 13 Q: And how far did the homeland go to 14 the east of the old army camp border? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I believe we can legally probably 19 prove right to the river in Port Franks this way. 20 Q: In Port Franks, which river is that? 21 A: The River Aux Sable. And that runs 22 up towards the Provincial Park and also known as the 23 Pinery. And that -- that bog-land that's down there now, 24 that was -- that was never -- I don't know how anybody 25 could even -- could be farming down there without -- I
1331 don't know -- I'd like to see who they're paying their 2 taxes to and what kind of lease they got and how they 3 acquired it. But we're getting off the issue and I 4 just -- 5 Q: All right. And in September 1995, 6 what portion of the land to the south of the old army 7 camp border, you know, along Highway 21, what portion of 8 the land to the south of the old army camp border did you 9 regard as being part of the homeland of the Stoney Point 10 people? 11 A: Well, at the time like I know -- I 12 know what -- what lands are part of Stoney Point and what 13 belonged to us. But I was -- me myself I was only 14 worried about what's there now. 15 Q: Sorry. What do you mean by what's -- 16 what's there now? 17 A: It reminds me like from what my 18 grandpa used to tell me. That was like basically the 19 stump was all that's left from the tree. 20 Q: What -- what are you referring to as 21 the stump; the army camp and -- and the Park? 22 A: Well, it's like the White Man coming 23 on and they wanted the -- they wanted to borrow part of 24 the -- the tree and the next thing you know they cut it 25 down and they took everything and then we were left
1341 sitting on the stump hoping they didn't want that, too. 2 Q: Okay. I -- I understand the 3 metaphor, but I just -- I just want to get -- get clear a 4 little bit on -- on an answer you gave me before, because 5 you were talking before about land to the south of the 6 old army camp being part of the Stoney Point homeland, as 7 you perceived it. 8 And do you recall just how far that 9 homeland extended to the south as you perceived it in 10 September '95? 11 A: I don't see the relevant -- the 12 revelance (phonetic), because I -- I don't see -- okay, 13 now to my knowledge, just what you're looking at now, 14 however, I do know the -- our boundaries out -- out 15 extend, but that's another battle. 16 Q: That's -- that's another battle for 17 another day? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 Mr. Ross or Mr. Scullion? I'm sorry, is 22 there a problem, Mr. Horton? 23 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I thought there was - 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 25 sorry, did you have some questions?
1351 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm willing to step 2 up. 3 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: No, sir, I -- I just 4 thought there were some other examinations. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 6 think so. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I think there 8 was actually -- excuse me, I should have -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. -- I think the -- 11 Mr. O'Marra and, perhaps, Mr. Sulman. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 13 sorry, I had forgotten. Mr. O'Marra and Mr. Sulman, you 14 both indicated you had some questions, so. 15 MR. AL O'MARRA: Just a couple of 16 questions, Mr. Commissioner. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 19 Q: Mr. Cloud, I'm Al O'Marra, acting on 20 behalf of the Chief Coroner and I have some questions 21 just relating to your observations after the shooting 22 and, in particular, around Nicholas Cottrelle. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Nicholas Cottrelle and the ambulance. 25 All right? Now, as I understand it, after you've
1361 indicated that you'd call for ambulances and others had 2 called for ambulances -- this is up at the gate, right? 3 A: Yeah, this is just yelling. 4 Q: Yelling? 5 A: This is yelling. 6 Q: You're yelling that towards to the 7 police outside of the gate? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And after you got the response 10 that you've related to us, what did you do? 11 A: Nothing. There was nothing I could 12 do. 13 Q: Okay. But did you remain there for a 14 period of time? 15 A: I just wandered around in a daze. 16 Q: Okay. Now, I expect that if we hear 17 from ambulance attendants as -- attendants, rather, John 18 Tedwell (phonetic) and Mark Watt (phonetic), that they 19 would indicate that they were in the area of Highway 21 20 and Army Camp Road just after eleven o'clock -- 21 A: There was an ambulance right on the 22 highway. 23 Q: That's what I wanted to ask you. You 24 saw an ambulance on the highway? 25 A: Yes.
1371 Q: Okay. Just the one (1) or two (2)? 2 A: Just the one (1) that I noticed. 3 Q: Okay. And I expect when or if we 4 hear from those witnesses, they would indicate that they 5 arrived at 11:16 just outside of the -- the Camp and that 6 they had Nicholas Cottrelle with them two (2) minutes 7 later. 8 Did you observe Nicholas being taken out 9 of the Camp onto Highway 21? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. Did you see the ambulance 12 attendants deal with anybody from the Camp? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. Did you see them depart? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. So when you indicated you 17 wandered around in a -- in a daze, did you go back into 18 the Camp or the built-up area? 19 A: Yes, I went back to my mom and dad -- 20 Q: Okay, because you also indicated to 21 us that you went back to check out yourself to see if you 22 were injured or shot? 23 A: Yeah, my brothers -- my brother -- I 24 -- I asked him to check me out because I was in a lot of 25 pain.
1381 Q: Okay. So after you'd made your 2 comment or yelling out that an ambulance was needed, you 3 then went back into the camp towards your mother and 4 father's place? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Thanks very much. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Mr. O'Marra. Mr. Sulman...? 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 11 Q: Mr. Commissioner, good afternoon, I 12 guess it is now. Mr. Cloud, good afternoon. My name is 13 Douglas Sulman and I'm going to -- I represent Marcel 14 Beaubien, who was the Member of Parliament for the 15 Ipperwash area back in 1995. 16 Yesterday, sir, you -- you told us that 17 you were told that there was a family burial plot in the 18 Provincial Park; correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I don't recall from my notes who 21 told you that; can you tell me that? 22 A: My grandpa. 23 Q: Pardon me? 24 A: Sheldon Cloud. 25 Q: Okay. And what do you mean by the
1391 term "burial plot"? 2 A: Back then people bury their families 3 and they're on their property. 4 Q: Okay. And when did your grandfather 5 tell you this? 6 A: When I was young. 7 Q: Okay. And do you recall 8 approximately how old you were at the time? 9 A: Maybe fourteen (14). 10 Q: About fourteen (14)? 11 A: Twelve (12), no roughly, probably 12 twelve (12). 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I was told about many things. 15 Because when I was growing up, all I was ever told about 16 was how it was at Stoney Point, what they used to do at 17 Stoney Point. Because that's all he had to dream and 18 wish for. 19 Q: Okay. And you -- what are you, about 20 -- thirty-nine (39), about to be forty (40) now? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. So you learned about this 23 approximately twenty-seven (27) years ago? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And --
1401 A: Or -- 2 Q: That sound right? 3 A: Probably my earliest recognition 4 would probably be more like -- thirty (30) years ago. 5 Q: Okay. That's -- that's fine. And 6 since the incident at Ipperwash took place in 1995, that 7 would be nine (9) years ago. So at least twenty (20) 8 some odds years before September 1995 you were made aware 9 of this family burial plot; correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And when your grandfather was 12 telling you about the existence of a family burial plot 13 in the Provincial -- what is now the Provincial Park, did 14 he tell you that much of that Park was bog-land or swamp 15 prior to the provincial officials draining it? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Were you aware of that on your 18 own? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. And I understand from your 21 evidence yesterday that you were told that three (3) of 22 your family members were buried in that plot; is that 23 correct? 24 A: I was just told that there was three 25 (3) family members from the Albert George family.
1411 Q: Okay. Buried in that plot? 2 A: Three (3) different burials. 3 Q: Three (3), okay. Three (3) different 4 burials in the same location; you called it a plot? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And do you know who is said to 7 be buried in that family plot? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. And do you when they were said 10 to be buried in -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: So do you have -- just generally, do 13 you have any idea -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- if it was in the 20th Century or - 16 - or prior to it? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. And were you told by your 19 grandfather -- 20 A: No, I don't know the location. 21 Q: Not the location. I wasn't going to 22 ask you that but maybe that will skip one (1) of the 23 questions. 24 Were you told whether there was a burial 25 ceremony at the time?
1421 A: No. But I imagine there had to have 2 been. 3 Q: Okay. But no one told you that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Were you told whether the plot 6 was in some way marked or fenced off? 7 A: I -- I was told only that there was a 8 plot, nothing else. 9 Q: Nothing else. Were you ever told by 10 your grandfather whether your family members visited that 11 plot while they lived in the Stoney Point lands? 12 A: I was told only of the plot, nothing 13 else. 14 Q: Okay. Just -- just that there was a 15 plot there? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And no one ever showed you the 18 location? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did your grandfather or father ever 21 tell you whether either one of them ever told any 22 provincial officials about the existence of this family 23 plot? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And did he tell you who --
1431 which one told you -- 2 A: Oh -- 3 Q: -- your grandfather or father? 4 A: -- no. My grandpa and my grandpa's 5 brother had argued with the Ministry over it. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Stan Cloud. 8 Q: Stan is your great-uncle, your 9 grandfather's -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And did they tell you when 12 they argued with the Provincial Officials about the plot? 13 A: Just long ago; that's all I knew. 14 Q: Okay. So they didn't tell you who 15 they argued with? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did they tell you whether they argued 18 or communicated with the Provincial Officials in writing? 19 A: I believe it's in writing. 20 Q: Okay, did you see any of this 21 writing? 22 A: No, but I believe it's in writing. 23 Q: Okay, when you say -- 24 A: I -- 25 Q: -- you "believe it", is that because
1441 someone in the family has some collection of the writing 2 or letters? 3 A: I -- like -- I don't know. 4 Q: Okay. Is it -- but is there any 5 particular source of your belief that it was in writing, 6 Mr. Cloud? 7 A: Yes, I -- I actually don't -- I can't 8 remember because I was going through four (4) -- anywhere 9 from four (4) to eight (8) hours of documentation, seven 10 (7) -- seven (7) days a week for seven (7) years in a row 11 and I believe I did come across some myself but I can't 12 remember the -- the specifics on it with Stan Cloud. 13 Q: So were you doing some research? Is 14 that what you're saying? 15 A: I was on the negotiating team. 16 Q: Oh, okay. And on doing -- being on 17 the negotiating team, you say you may have come across 18 some -- 19 A: It's possible -- 20 Q: -- communication? 21 A: -- but I can't remember. 22 Q: Have you produced any of this 23 documentation to the Commission Counsel? 24 A: I -- no. 25 Q: Okay. And was this -- this
1451 negotiation that you've been -- you just reported to us, 2 was this prior to September 1995 or after? 3 A: This is after. 4 Q: Okay. And you learned about the 5 existence of the family plot, you told us, at least some 6 -- a decade before September 1995, right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And did you do anything, did you meet 9 with any Provincial Officials or -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- write any letters? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. Now, since September 1995, the 14 Provincial Park has been occupied. Have you gone into 15 the Provincial Park since then? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay, and have you located the family 18 plot within the Park? 19 A: No, I wouldn't disturb them. 20 Q: Well, I didn't ask whether you 21 disturbed it, do you know where it is now? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. And prior to September 1995, 24 had you ever -- you know, you're a member of the public, 25 had you ever gone into the Provincial Park to look for
1461 the family plot? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. And is there a reason that you 4 didn't do that? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. Mr. Millar, yesterday, 10 referred to the lands that, on the map, are shown as the 11 Ipperwash Military Reserve. He referred to them as being 12 appropriated by the federal government for an Army base. 13 And what you told us was that, as a child, 14 you were told the land was stolen -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- by the Canadian government, right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And unlike the actions of the 19 Canadian government with regard to the Army base, are you 20 aware that the provincial government didn't steal the 21 Park lands from your ancestors? In fact, they bought it 22 some thirty (30) -- about thirty (30) acres in the corner 23 of the map from a private citizen. Are you aware of 24 that? 25 A: It was an illegal sale.
1471 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: I'm aware of that now, but I'm aware 3 that it was done illegally as well. 4 Q: You mean the sale to the private 5 citizen? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: But the -- you're aware that the 8 province purchased that land from a private citizen? 9 A: It was illegal. 10 Q: Are you suggesting that the 11 province's purchase from the private citizen was illegal? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what's the basis of that 14 suggestion? 15 A: Before any of the land could have 16 been sold, it had to -- you had to have a community vote, 17 like, any kind of such transactions and it was not done 18 properly and -- and before land can be transferred or 19 anything like that, it has to be approved by the Minister 20 of Indian Affairs and Minister of Indian Affairs 21 represents Canada and Canada has a fiduciary obligation 22 to protect our people and they did not. 23 Q: Okay. So you're suggesting that the 24 federal government in the form of the Minister of Indian 25 Affairs failed in -- in its duty?
1481 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Did anyone in your family or 3 anyone else to your knowledge, prior to September 1995, 4 apply to have all or any part of that Provincial Park -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- designated as a cemetery? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. Now, I recall you saying 9 yesterday that the occupiers at the Provincial Park at 10 the time of the confrontation with the OPP, that they 11 were hollering that the OPP had no business at the Park, 12 that it was a burial ground. 13 Do you recall telling us that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And how would you expect that the 16 Provincial Park -- the Provincial Police would know that 17 the Provincial Park contained your family burial plot 18 prior to that confrontation? 19 A: I did not tell you it was my family. 20 I said it was the Albert George family. 21 Q: Oh. You're a member of the Albert 22 George family are you not? 23 A: Yes. Well distant. It's still -- 24 you're generalizing. 25 Q: In what sense, sir?
1491 A: Well you're -- like it's possible 2 that it's not my family. We don't know -- we don't know 3 for sure. 4 Q: Okay. Maybe I misunderstood. Albert 5 George -- who did you -- 6 A: I don't -- I don't know my history 7 well enough to give you an exact answer for that 8 question. 9 Q: Thank you. I simply took -- 10 A: I just do know that there is a family 11 plot there. 12 Q: Oh, a family plot? Not necessarily 13 your family? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. So maybe we misunderstood you 16 yesterday. Okay. Thank you, sir. 17 But back to my question, whether I 18 generalized it as to whose family was or not whose family 19 it was, other than hollering at the OPP on that 20 particular day, how would you expect the OPP -- how did 21 you expect the OPP to be aware of the fact that there was 22 a family plot in the Provincial Park? 23 A: In 1973 they had -- well, the 24 provincial government was well aware of it. They had to 25 have been under Parks Canada, they -- there was much
1501 documentation of one burial being uncovered and actually 2 skeletorial (phonetic) remains of a small boy. I believe 3 the -- they estimated the boy to be between twelve (12) 4 and fourteen (14) years of age. 5 Q: Okay. And you're relying in the 6 statement you just made -- you're relying on a -- may I 7 suggest to you -- 8 A: Government records. 9 Q: And the report of Joan Holmes? 10 A: Pardon? 11 Q: Are you aware of -- of you aware of a 12 report done by Joan Holmes with regard to that issue? 13 A: That sounds familiar but I -- 14 Q: You haven't read it? 15 A: I've read a lot of it, I probably 16 have. Like I said, I just haven't been updated. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And I haven't -- I, you know, to go 19 through a review, I've got to go through -- I don't know 20 have them on computer. I have to go -- it would probably 21 take me a week going through the papers just to find it 22 again. 23 Q: Okay. So your -- your position is 24 the provincial government as opposed to the federal 25 government, which is Parks Canada, was aware early on
1511 that there was actually burial grounds in the Provincial 2 Park? 3 A: Oh yes. That definite. 4 Q: Okay. And can you refer me to any 5 documentation supporting that? 6 A: The only thing I could tell you which 7 might help -- I can't understand how you don't have them 8 to begin with is when they signed an agreement to 9 negotiate. 10 After Dudley had been killed and that's 11 the only reason why the government stepped up -- Minister 12 Ron Irwin, he produced the documents himself to try and - 13 - I believe as an attempt to defuse the situation which 14 he did. And negotiations then proceeded. 15 Q: Okay. And you recognize that Mr. Ron 16 Irwin or Minister Ron Irwin at the time was a member of 17 the Government of Canada, not the Provincial Government? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And they aren't here today -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: -- or participating in this 22 procedure? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
1521 very much. Mr. Scullion...? 2 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 3 Commissioner. I must thank My Friends once again for 4 allowing me three (3) of four (4) minutes before the 5 break to mop up. But I will be quick. 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 8 Q: Mr. Cloud, following Mr. Downard's 9 comments regarding a map which is listed as P-61 -- it's 10 P-40 which for Mr. Ross' benefit it looks a lot like P- 11 63. The parking lot that we've referred to is at the top 12 left corner. Do you see that area? 13 A: You mean this area here? 14 Q: Yes. You have your pointer out. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Are you able to assist the Commission 17 in describing how far away the closest cottage is to that 18 sandy parking lot to the west? 19 A: Are you referring to the sandy 20 parking lot where the fire was? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Inside? Okay, the -- 23 Q: No, no, on the west side of the 24 fence. 25 A: Oh, I'd say seventy-five (75) --
1531 about seventy-five (75) yards away from the -- from the 2 road, from Army Camp Road -- where the Army Camp Road 3 comes down and comes into a bend and then that road goes 4 down into a beach. It's a good seventy-five (75) yards 5 away. 6 Q: So your estimate is about seventy- 7 five (75) yards from the sandy parking lot that we've 8 been talking about to the closest cottage? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you're able to see that cottage 11 from that parking lot? 12 A: Yes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now you had testified that your 17 grandfather spoke about the Army camp lands as being 18 stolen from your people? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And he spoke about the presence of 21 burial grounds in the Park land? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You were involved with peaceful 24 protest while in your teens? 25 A: Yes.
1541 Q: And you were involved in pre -- 2 peaceful protests in the early 1990's? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: In fact you stepped onto the lands at 5 times to hunt and fish and you were escorted off by 6 miliary personnel? 7 A: That is correct. 8 Q: And those escorts off of the land 9 were nonetheless peaceful? They weren't -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- confrontations? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: In 1993 through 1995, you visited the 14 Army camp lands often? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you didn't have any confrontation 17 with the military at that time? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Those were peaceful occupation? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You visited following the takeover of 22 the barracks in July of 1995? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And again, it was a peaceful 25 occupation of the area? You weren't asked, or you
1551 weren't forced to leave those lands? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you've testified that you were of 4 the opinion that the MR -- MNR were aware, in advance, of 5 the desire to move onto the Parklands? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And, in fact, they provided keys to 8 allow you to take -- to occupy that area peacefully 9 without breaking or ruining any property? 10 A: That is correct. 11 Q: Is it fair to say that you expected 12 this occupation to also be peaceful? 13 A: Absolutely. 14 Q: At worst you were going to be 15 arrested? 16 A: Or escorted out. 17 Q: Or -- at best, somebody was going to 18 take notice and address your long-standing grievance? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Now you also testified that on 21 September 5th and September 6th you had driven through 22 police road blocks? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: At any point in time did any of the 25 police that were at those road blocks ask you what the
1561 occupiers were protesting? 2 A: Never. 3 Q: Did they ever ask you if any of the 4 occupiers had any guns? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Did they ever tell you that the 7 police wanted to speak to somebody? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did they ever ask you who the leaders 10 of the occupiers were? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did they ever tell you that the 13 occupiers would be safe if they stayed within the quote 14 "Park lands"? 15 Did they ever say that to you? 16 A: Okay, can you repeat that question? 17 Q: When you were pulled over on either 18 September 5 or September 6 did any of the police ever 19 tell you that the protesters would be safe if only they 20 stayed within the Park lands? 21 A: Are you saying if only they stayed 22 within Army camp lands or -- 23 Q: I'm asking you if the OPP told you 24 that? 25 A: No.
1571 Q: On September 6th, you drove quite 2 quickly down the interior lane and when you arrived at 3 the area, I think you've testified that there was already 4 a confrontation occurring? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: At that point in time, do you recall 7 the OPP ever suggesting to any of the people along that 8 fence line that they should stay within the Park and that 9 they would be safe if they did that? 10 A: No. 11 Q: When they rushed the fence line, two 12 (2) or three (3) times, did any of the police ever say, 13 Would somebody come out and negotiate with us? 14 A: I was never told. I never heard 15 either. 16 Q: Did any of the police have a bullhorn 17 or any other instrument of amplifying their voices above 18 the yelling? 19 A: They could have easily did it. They 20 could have had it in their police cars. 21 Q: They could have, but did you ever 22 recall hearing -- 23 A: No, nothing. 24 Q: When they came at you banging their 25 shields and swinging their sicks -- sticks, did they ever
1581 say to you, We just want to talk with you? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Thank you, Mr. Cloud, those are my 4 questions. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 6 want you to feel rushed, Mr. Scullion, I realize that it 7 is one o'clock, but you are finished? 8 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I am finished. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 11 Commissioner, I have no further questions of Mr. Cloud. 12 I'd like to thank you, Mr. Cloud, for attending at the 13 Commission and assisting us with your evidence. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much, Mr. Cloud, this is never easy. Thank you 16 very, very much for coming here and giving your evidence. 17 18 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 19 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now, I suggest we take 21 a lunch break to 2:15 and then start this afternoon with 22 Mr. Glen Bressette. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sounds 24 good. Thank you very much. 25 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This
1591 Inquiry stands adjourned until 2:15. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 1:02 p.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 2:15 p.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 afternoon. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, 11 Commissioner. Our next witness is Glen Carlyle 12 Bressette, sir. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Bressette, I 14 understand that you wish to be sworn with the eagle 15 feather? 16 MR. GLEN CARLYLE BRESSETTE: Yes. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. Will you 18 please state your name in full, please. 19 20 GLEN CARLYLE BRESSETTE, JR, Sworn: 21 22 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Mr. Bressette, I understand that you 24 were born on April the 9th, 1973? 25 A: Yes.
1601 Q: And your parents are Caroline George 2 and Carl -- Carlyle Bressette, Sr.? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that your paternal grandparents 5 were Norfern (phonetic) Bressette and Earl Bressette? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And your great-grandparents were Bess 8 Bressette and Tom Bressette, who was also known as 9 Teapot? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And on your mother's side your 12 grandparents were Reginald and Genevieve George? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And Dudley George was your uncle? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I understand that you are 17 frequently referred to as "J.R."? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And can you tell us when you first 20 became aware of the issues surrounding Stoney Point? 21 A: In 1990. 22 Q: And in 1990 how did you become aware 23 of those issues? 24 A: I seen picketers outside of the Army 25 Camp picketing for its return.
1611 Q: And in 1990 were you working at the 2 Army Camp? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I understand that you were 5 working for -- I believe it's Delmar (phonetic) Foods; is 6 that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you were working as a student in 9 the kitchen? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And so who -- when the -- can you 12 tell us about the picketers? Do you recall who the 13 picketers were and -- and what the issue was? 14 A: One (1) of them was Joe George. They 15 were out there trying to get the land returned to the 16 original landowners. 17 Q: And the land being? What land are 18 you referring to? 19 A: The Army Camp. 20 Q: Thank you. And I understand that the 21 -- you worked at the Army Camp the summer of 1990 and 22 1991 and 1992? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And in 1992 you finished Grade 12? 25 A: Yes.
1621 Q: And I understand as well that you 2 attended the funeral of your great uncle Dan George, who 3 was buried at the cemetery at the Army Camp in 1990; is 4 that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And your grandfather Reginald George 7 lived on the Army Camp until the appropriation in 1942? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And how did -- who did you learn 10 about the appropriation of the Army Camp from? 11 A: My uncles Dudley, Pierre and my 12 mother. 13 Q: And can you tell us when you learned 14 about the issues of the army camp from your mother and 15 your uncles Pierre and Dudley? 16 A: That was in '93. 17 Q: In '93? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And prior to that time you knew what 20 -- you had learned as a result of the picketers, is that 21 correct? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And in 1993, did you move into the 24 army camp with the protesters when they moved into the 25 army camp?
1631 A: No. 2 Q: And did you visit the -- the army 3 camp after the protesters moved into the army camp along 4 the rifle ranges? 5 A: I would visit them from time to time. 6 Q: And can you tell us how often you 7 would visit -- you visited in 1993? 8 A: Just every other weekend or 9 something. 10 Q: Okay. And in 1994 did you visit as 11 well? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And how often would you have visited 14 in 1994, can you remember? 15 A: Just dropped down like on a Saturday 16 or something, one a week. 17 Q: And during this period of time in 18 1993 and 1994, you had a full time job? You were 19 working? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you were living at Kettle Point? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 23 an observation? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1641 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Could you just close up your book 4 there, please? 5 A: Oh, okay. 6 Q: Thank you. And the -- and in -- 7 between 1993 -- in 1993 and 1994, you were -- where were 8 you living? 9 A: At my mother's house in Kettle Point. 10 Q: In Kettle Point. And did you stay 11 overnight in 1993 and 1994 at the army camp along the 12 rifle ranges? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And when you stayed overnight, where 15 did you stay? 16 A: Just in trailers that the people 17 brought down there. 18 Q: And did you stay often? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. And I understand that -- what 21 did you learn from your uncles Dudley and Pierre and your 22 mother with respect to the issues surrounding the army 23 camp? 24 A: They were just telling me stuff like 25 they were the original descendants of the land and
1651 thought it would be important that we try and -- that 2 they try and get it back. 3 Q: And did they tell you about your 4 grandfather being -- having lived on Stoney Point? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And were you aware of the march to 7 Ottawa in 1993? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Did you participate in the march to 10 Ottawa in 1993? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And were you aware of the purpose of 13 the march to Ottawa in 1993? 14 A: That was to draw awareness of the 15 Stoney Point occupation down there on the rifle ranges. 16 Q: That was the purpose? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then in the summer of 1995, prior 19 to July 29th, 1995, were you still living at Kettle 20 Point? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And in the 1995 prior to July 29th, 23 1995, how often would you visit the army camp? 24 A: It was like I was going down every 25 other day or something.
1661 Q: Okay. And in the summer of 199 -- 2 spring and summer of 1995, were you -- did you have a 3 full- time job? 4 A: Yes. Yes, I did. 5 Q: And so that you would -- you were 6 living at Kettle Point and you would go down when your 7 work permitted? 8 A: Yes, after work and on weekends. 9 Q: And when did you first learn about 10 the move from the rifle ranges into the built-up area of 11 the army camp? 12 A: The day of the 29th, I heard it on the 13 radio. I think it was a Sunday morning. Then me and my 14 mother decided to go down and have a look -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- and then found that the natives 17 were already in the barracks. 18 Q: In the barracks? And did you move 19 into the Army camp at the beginning of the occupation of 20 the Army -- of the built-up area of the Army camp? 21 A: Not right away. 22 Q: Did your mother? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And did your uncle, Dudley George, 25 move into the built up area of the Army camp?
1671 A: Yes. 2 Q: And ... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Excuse me, Commissioner, we seem to 7 have lost our -- can I ask for some technical assistance? 8 Our machine has shut down. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Perhaps whilst this -- it's gone down 13 some -- in some fashion, so we'll have to try to figure 14 out about it afterwards. We'll have to deal -- do 15 without it. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: I'm going to show you a drawing. 20 It's Exhibit ... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-41. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-41?
1681 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Can you tell us, Mr. Bressette, using 5 Exhibit P-41 and I apologize to My Friends that I can't 6 put this up on the screen, but where your mother moved 7 into, which building when she moved in the Army camp in - 8 - in the built-up area in July 1995? 9 A: Just tell the number of the building? 10 Q: Just the number of the building. 11 A: 116. 12 Q: And 116 is located close to the main 13 entrance to the Army camp? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And -- and it's a -- actually a 16 trailer, is that correct? 17 A: Yes. A trailer. 18 Q: And your -- did your Uncle Dudley 19 move into the built-up area of the Army camp in July of 20 1995, as well? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell us -- point out the 23 number of the -- of the building that your Uncle Dudley 24 moved into? 25 A: It looks like it's 115.
1691 Q: And again, that was a trailer as 2 well? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: There are three (3) trailers: 115, 5 116 and 117 are actually trailers? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And when did you move into the built- 8 up area of the army camp? 9 A: Probably about a week before Dudley 10 got shot. 11 Q: In August of 1995? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And why did you move in? 14 A: He asked me to. 15 Q: Okay. And ultimately -- do you live 16 at the army camp now? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And when did you permanently move to 19 the army camp? 20 A: When I first moved in I just stayed. 21 Q: Since you -- after -- since August 22 1995, when you moved in, you've stayed there? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And where do you live now? Can you 25 tell us which building?
1701 A: I'm in Building 45. 2 Q: And Building 45 is on the Exhibit P- 3 41 that you're looking at, is part of the hospital. 4 Is that not correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you live in the part of the 7 building P-45 that's at the top of the -- the top of the 8 complex, as I understand it? 9 A: Yeah. Yes. 10 Q: And when did you become aware of the 11 plan to move into the Provincial Park? 12 A: It must have been the last week of 13 August or something. 14 Q: And how did you become aware that -- 15 about a potential move into the Provincial Park? 16 A: It was just something Dudley was 17 talking about. 18 Q: And did you talk to Dudley George 19 about the Provincial Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what did Mr. George tell you 22 about the Provincial Park at that time? 23 A: There was a burial ground in there. 24 Q: And did he tell you where the burial 25 ground was?
1711 A: No, he didn't know exactly. 2 Q: He didn't know exactly where it was? 3 And did he tell you anything else about the burial 4 ground, that you can recall? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And did he -- did he tell you why he 7 planned to move into the Provincial Park? 8 A: He said he didn't want a bunch of 9 campers possibly partying around on those graves. 10 Q: Yes? Did he tell you anything else? 11 A: To try and get it back for the Stoney 12 Point people and draw some media attention to ourselves. 13 Q: And what is -- did -- did he tell you 14 -- what did you understand him to be referring to; 15 getting the Provincial Park back? 16 A: And the rest of the army camp. 17 Q: Oh, I see, he was -- you understood 18 him to be referring to the army camp and the Provincial 19 Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you mentioned media attention. 22 What did he say about the media? 23 A: We weren't getting enough media 24 attention. 25 Q: And he thought that --
1721 A: It would be a good idea to take over 2 the Park. 3 Q: Because it would help get media 4 attention? 5 A: Yes. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And do you recall anything else that 10 your Uncle Dudley George told you about the Provincial 11 Park? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. And did you attend any 14 meetings prior to September 4th that related to the 15 occupation of the Provincial Park? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Were you aware of any meetings about 18 the occupation of the Provincial Park? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And when did you -- did you 21 participate in -- on September 4th, 1995 in the 22 occupation of the Provincial Park? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And when did you enter the Provincial 25 Park?
1731 A: Must have been in the evening, as the 2 Park was closing down. 3 Q: And who did you go into the 4 Provincial Park with, Mr. Bressette? 5 A: Dudley and a group of other people. 6 Q: Okay. And I'm just going to -- can 7 you tell us which part of the Provincial Park that you 8 entered into? Where did you go into the Provincial Park? 9 A: I think it was at the east side of 10 the Park. 11 Q: And I've got up on the screen Exhibit 12 P-40, and you will see that there is -- on the upper 13 left-hand side of Exhibit P-40, there is a -- the 14 Provincial Park is marked out; do you see that there, 15 sir? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And can you use -- using your -- the 18 laser pointer that's on the desk, can you point out where 19 you -- the gate that you entered the Provincial Park? 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: And you're pointing out the road that 22 runs from the east boundary of the Provincial Park off 23 Matheson Drive, that runs west towards the west side of 24 the Park? 25 A: Yes.
1741 Q: And can you tell us who else was with 2 you and your uncle Dudley George? 3 A: Glen George at the time. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: And I can't remember everyone else. 6 There was a group of us. 7 Q: And what happened -- when you went to 8 the gate, was the gate locked or was the gate open? 9 A: I think it was locked. 10 Q: And can you tell us what you remember 11 about how you got into the -- into the Park, through the 12 locked gate? 13 A: I think everyone used a little bit of 14 force to open it up. 15 Q: And you say you think, can you recall 16 that, Mr. Bressette, or -- 17 A: I can't. I don't remember how they 18 opened it up. They might have just broke it open or 19 something. 20 Q: Okay. And were there any -- were 21 there -- was there anyone standing on the inside of the 22 Park gate when you arrived, that you recall? 23 A: I can't remember anyone. 24 Q: And do you remember any Ontario 25 Provincial Police officers on the inside of the -- the
1751 gate on the east side of the Park when you arrived? 2 A: I can't remember. 3 Q: Okay. And after you entered into the 4 Park, where did you go, you personally go? 5 A: We went straight all the way through 6 to the other side, to the west side, over where the Park 7 store was. 8 Q: Okay. And when you say "we", you're 9 with your uncle Dudley George? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And how many people were there in the 12 group that you were with, that you can recall? 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: Can't remember? 15 A: There was our People coming in from 16 all -- all different openings around there. 17 Q: Oh. So that when you -- when you -- 18 A: No one never came in through the same 19 entrance. They, like, came in right up on the beach too; 20 and I don't know who did that either. 21 Q: People came in off the beach. You 22 saw people come from the beach? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And were you aware of people coming 25 through the gate at the maintenance -- at the maintenance
1761 building? 2 A: At that time, no. 3 Q: Okay. So that people were coming 4 into the Park through the gate on the east side and from 5 the beach; is that correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And when you got to the Park store, 8 what happened at the Park store, in that area? What did 9 you do? 10 A: Just stood around. 11 Q: And did you observe any Ontario 12 Provincial Police officers in or around the Park store? 13 A: There were. 14 Q: And how many police officers; do you 15 remember? 16 A: I can't remember how many there were. 17 Q: And were there police cruisers in the 18 Park; do you recall that? This is on the evening of 19 September 4th, the first day. 20 A: I can't remember that either. 21 Q: And do you have any recollection of - 22 - an encounter of between the occupiers and the police on 23 the evening of September 4th? 24 A: Yeah. There was some kind of a 25 encounter that -- there was police cars in there then.
1771 Q: And can you tell us where the police 2 cars were? Were they on the road from the main gate into 3 the Park or were they somewhere else? 4 A: On the road from the main gate into 5 the Park. 6 Q: And can you tell us where the 7 confrontation took place? 8 A: Right behind the Park store. 9 Q: And when you say right behind the 10 Park store, that would be south of the Park store? 11 A: South. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And would that be in the area near 15 the -- the gate house, the entrance to -- where the 16 campers had to get their permits to go into the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And can you tell us what you remember 19 as to what happened in the encounter between -- with the 20 Ontario Provincial Police? 21 A: Some flares were flying around and 22 then a cruiser's window got broken. 23 Q: And how many occupiers were there at 24 the scent where this took place? 25 A: A big group of us. I'm not sure how
1781 many there were. 2 Q: And can you tell us how many police 3 cruisers there were? 4 A: Six (6). 5 Q: Okay. Were -- and can you tell us 6 how many police officers there were? 7 A: I can't -- I can't say, I don't know. 8 Q: Okay. And do you rec -- did you 9 recognize any of the police officers? 10 A: One (1) was George Speck. 11 Q: And why did you recognize Mr. George 12 Speck? 13 A: Because he works around town here, 14 around Forest. 15 Q: Forest? And did you recognize any of 16 the other police officers? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And can you tell us the incident with 19 the -- when the window got broken in the police car, the 20 police cruiser? Who broke the window? 21 A: Judas. 22 Q: And when you say Judas, you're 23 referring to Roderick George? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what happened? Was there a
1791 discussion between the occupants -- the occupiers and the 2 police? Can you just tell us a little bit more of what 3 happened? 4 A: Well I can't really remember what 5 everyone said but they told them to get out, told the 6 cops to get out. 7 Q: And when they -- when you're 8 referring to "they", who are you referring to? Roderick 9 and others or? 10 A: I guess Roderick and others. 11 Q: And when you saw Roderick George at 12 the interaction with the police near the gate house, was 13 that the first time you had seen Roderick George in the 14 Park that day? That -- after you -- that evening, excuse 15 me? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And had you seen Roderick George in 18 the army camp earlier on September 4th? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And can you describe for us Mr. 21 Roderick George's condition as you recall it on the 22 evening of September 4th, at this time? 23 A: He was really in a bad mood. 24 Q: And were you -- did you know if he 25 had had consumed any alcohol?
1801 A: No, I don't. 2 Q: Did he appear to you to have been -- 3 to have consumed any alcohol? 4 A: No. He just seemed like in a really 5 bad mood. 6 Q: And do you recall anything that was 7 said by the police officers? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And you -- you said there were some 10 flares thrown. Do you recall what type of flare was 11 thrown? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And do you recall who threw the 14 flares? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And do you recall if any of the 17 occupiers had clubs or sticks in their hands at this 18 interaction with the police officers? 19 A: Yes. Yes, they did. 20 Q: Some of the occupiers had what in 21 their hands? 22 A: Clubs. 23 Q: And when you say, can you tell us 24 what kind of clubs? 25 A: A stick or a tree branch or
1811 something. 2 Q: Okay. And did you see any baseball 3 bats? 4 A: Well, I guess a baseball bat could be 5 called a club. 6 Q: Okay. Were there some baseball bats 7 there? 8 A: I really can't say. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: They just looked like sticks. 11 Q: And did you have one (1) of those, 12 too? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And on September the 4th, 1995 the 15 first day in the evening, did any of the occupiers have 16 any firearms? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And when you were -- prior to 19 September 4th, 1995, did you hunt on the Army camp? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Are you a hunter? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And are you a fisherman? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And do you own a firearm?
1821 A: No. 2 Q: Have you ever owned a firearm? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And when was that? 5 A: When I was a teenager. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: When I was sixteen (16). 8 Q: Yes. What did you -- 9 A: It was a .22. 10 Q: And what did you do with it? 11 A: It broke, so I just threw it out. 12 Q: And you never replaced it? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And going back to the evening of 15 September 4th, the first day of the occupation, after the 16 altercation with the police officers, the -- do you 17 remember -- or during the altercation do you remember 18 what Roderick George said to the police officers before 19 he broke the window or as he broke the window? 20 A: I think he called George Speck a 21 fucking Nazi. 22 Q: Yeah -- 23 A: And, Get the fuck out of here. 24 Q: And do you recall anything else? 25 A: No.
1831 Q: Do you recall Roderick George -- 2 there's been some evidence that he said you had twenty 3 (20) -- they had twenty (20) seconds to leave. Do you -- 4 does that assist you? 5 A: Yes, he gave them a time limit to 6 leave and then once it was up I think the window got 7 broke then they jumped in their cars and took off. 8 Q: Okay. And after this incident with 9 the police officers, what did you do? Did you stay in 10 the Park, did you go back to the Army camp? 11 A: I stayed in the Park for a few hours. 12 Q: And when you were in the Park, where 13 were you in the Park? 14 A: Just around by the Park store. 15 Q: And was there a fire built at the 16 Park store or near the Park store or ... 17 A: I can't remember where the fire was. 18 I know there was a fire. 19 Q: Pardon me? 20 A: I know there was a fire, but I can't 21 remember where it was. 22 Q: And after you left the Park, where 23 did you go? 24 A: Just back up to the built up area, to 25 go to sleep for the night.
1841 Q: And at this point, where were you 2 staying? With your uncle, still? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that was in building 114? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: One fifteen (115). 9 Q: Oh excuse me. One fifteen (115), 10 yeah, I was -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- mistaken. And during the initial 13 occupation of the Park on September 4th, were there 14 people from other First Nations in the Park that evening? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- do you -- can you recall who these 19 individuals were? 20 A: One (1) was Al George. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: I don't know who the rest of them 23 were. 24 Q: Okay. Do you know Gabriel Doxtator? 25 A: No.
1851 Q: Do you know Buck Doxtator? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Do you know Robert Isaac? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And was Robert Isaac there? 6 A: No, I didn't see him. 7 Q: Okay. And the -- on day two (2), 8 September 5th, 1995, what did you -- did you go to the 9 army camp -- I mean, go to the Park on September the 5th? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you, on September the 4th or 12 September the 5th, have an encounter with some police 13 officers? 14 A: I got pulled over by some, but riding 15 around -- that wasn't in the Park. 16 Q: That wasn't in -- when -- where was 17 that? 18 A: East Parkway Drive. 19 Q: Okay. And can you tell me -- I'll 20 get back to that in a moment, but on the morning of 21 September the 5th, what did you when you got up; do you 22 recall? 23 A: I probably went back to the Park -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- to see if there was still people
1861 there, see how they were doing. 2 Q: And did you go to Sarnia on September 3 the 5th -- this is day 2 -- with your brother-in-law? 4 A: Yes. I took him back to his 5 apartment. 6 Q: And do you recall being -- do you 7 recall, on the way back, having an encounter with the 8 Ontario Provincial Police? 9 A: Yeah. Just one (1) of their road 10 checkpoints. 11 Q: And can you tell us where the 12 checkpoint was, Mr. Bressette? 13 A: It was just outside the main gate of 14 the camp. 15 Q: On Army Camp Road? 16 A: Army Camp Road. 17 Q: And between the main gate and Highway 18 21? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the -- what happened with the 21 police officer when you were stopped? Were you stopped? 22 A: Yeah. They made me stop. 23 Q: And what did they ask you? 24 A: Just for my licence. 25 Q: And you gave them your licence?
1871 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did the police ask -- police 3 officers ask you any questions as to what you were doing 4 or where you were going? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No. And did anything else happen? 7 Did they -- they looked at your licence and let you go 8 by? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And the police officers that were at 11 the checkpoint, how were they dressed? 12 A: Like, wearing military clothes or 13 something, for combat or something. 14 Q: When you say that, what do you mean? 15 A: A bulletproof vest. 16 Q: They had a bulletproof vest. But did 17 they have a -- a uniform on? 18 A: Yeah, a uniform. 19 Q: And did -- did it look like a normal 20 Ontario Provincial Police uniform? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No? 23 A: No. I never seen that kind before, 24 until that day. 25 Q: Can you help us by telling us a
1881 little bit more about what it looked like? The officers 2 had -- the officer had a bulletproof vest? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what else? 5 A: Wearing some kind of thing for 6 protection on their legs, their knees, and then their 7 combat boots or something. 8 Q: This was on the morning of September 9 5th -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- day 2? And were you stopped on 12 the way out of the Park -- on the way out of the Army 13 Camp towards Sarnia or on the way back, or both? 14 A: Both times. 15 Q: And when you were stopped both times 16 were you simply asked for your licence? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you referred to a -- being 19 stopped on East Parkway Drive. Can you tell us what 20 happened there? 21 A: I was only going the speed limit, 22 fifty (50) kilometres, and they pulled me over. 23 Q: And so they -- the police officers 24 stopped you. And did they ask you -- what happened with 25 the police officers?
1891 A: He said I was going too high of a 2 rate of speed for when there's people using the beach. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: And that was it. He checked my 5 licence and let me go, said to slow down. 6 Q: So he simply warned you and asked you 7 to slow down and -- and didn't give you a ticket or 8 anything, and just -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- you just carried on? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And was this police officer -- how 13 was he dressed? 14 A: In regular uniform. 15 Q: And can you tell us where along East 16 Parkway Drive this -- the police officer stopped you? 17 A: In front of a parking lot -- 18 Q: And -- 19 A: -- where people park their cars for 20 the beach. 21 Q: And was -- we've referred to a 22 parking lot, the Ministry of Natural Resources parking 23 lot, is that the parking lot? 24 A: Yeah. 25
1901 Q: And did you see any police cars in 2 that parking lot on September 5th when you were stopped? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did you see a police van in there, do 5 you recall? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you -- do you recall seeing a -- 8 do you recall seeing a trailer of any type in there? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And after you got back from Sarnia -- 11 how long did it take you to go to Sarnia and come back? 12 A: Hour and a half. 13 Q: And what did you do for the balance 14 of the day? 15 A: Just going back and forth from the 16 Park -- from inside the Army Camp. 17 Q: And can you tell us what the mood, 18 like, was in the Park on Day 2, September 5th? 19 A: Everyone was happy. 20 Q: And the -- did you observe, when you 21 were in -- on September 5th, police officers in and 22 around the Park? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And can you tell us where the police 25 officers were in and around the Park?
1911 A: On the 5th? 2 Q: On the 5th, Day 2. 3 A: I'll get this pointer going. Along 4 there. 5 Q: And when you say, "Along there," 6 you're referring to Army Camp Road? 7 A: Army Camp Road. 8 Q: Road? Yeah? And were police 9 cruisers parked along the road? 10 A: Yeah, along here somewhere. 11 Q: And when you say, "Along here 12 somewhere," -- 13 A: I can't remember the exact spot where 14 they were, but -- 15 Q: But you were point -- 16 A: -- it was along the road somewhere. 17 Q: -- you were pointing to an area south 18 of Matheson Drive? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then did you observe police 21 officers on the beach? 22 A: Yes. Out that way somewhere. 23 Q: And, you're pointing to an area west 24 of the roadway that we've been calling the sandy parking 25 lot, there's that sandy parking lot -- road access to the
1921 beach area just to the west of the Park and you're 2 familiar with that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the police -- you observed a 5 police officer in a cruiser on the beach west of the 6 entrance to the beach from the access road leading down 7 from Army Camp Road? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did you observe how many police 10 officers -- were the police officers in the cruiser or 11 outside the cruiser? 12 A: They were in it. 13 Q: In it? And did you observe any other 14 police officers on Day 2, September 5th? 15 A: A police boat. 16 Q: And where was the -- the police boat? 17 A: Out there in the water somewhere. 18 Q: It was out in Lake Huron north of the 19 Provincial Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you said it was a police boat. 22 How do you know that it was a police boat? 23 A: Well, it just sat in one (1) spot 24 continuously all day long and all night long -- 25 Q: And --
1931 A: -- didn't take much guesswork. 2 Q: Okay. Did you look at it through 3 binoculars? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And, what -- 6 A: You could see a man out there with 7 binoculars. 8 Q: Looking back at you? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And do you -- was -- do you recall 11 were there any markings on the boat to identify it as a 12 police boat? 13 A: I can't remember if there was. 14 Q: Okay. And the -- did anyone inside 15 the Park have mirrors? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what were they doing with the 18 mirrors? 19 A: Shining a reflection on the cops. 20 Q: And the -- who was doing this? 21 A: Just a group of kids. 22 Q: And how old were the kids, can you 23 tell me? 24 A: I'm not sure. I'm not sure. 25 Q: And -- and were they teenagers or
1941 younger than that? 2 A: Younger than that. 3 Q: And what size mirrors were the 4 children using to -- 5 A: Bathroom size mirrors. 6 Q: From the bathrooms at -- at -- 7 A: From the Army Camp. 8 Q: -- oh, from the Army camp? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And where were the children located 11 inside the Park? 12 A: Right about there. 13 Q: And you're pointing to an area just 14 to the north of the Park store and I understand that's a 15 parking lot -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- north of the Park store? Yes? 18 And, so they were in the parking area just east of the 19 fence line between the provincial Park and the access 20 road to Lake Huron? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And where were the police officers 23 located that the children were shining the mirrors into? 24 A: Right about there, out on the road. 25 Q: So using the map behind you, there's
1951 a map. It's a copy of Exhibit P-23, Commissioner. Can 2 you point out on that map where the police officers were 3 on September 5th when the children were shining mirrors 4 into their eyes. 5 A: About here. 6 Q: So they were parked on the side of 7 the road at the intersection of East Parkway Drive and 8 Army Camp Road? 9 A: Maybe about -- 10 Q: You have to -- 11 A: Right here. 12 Q: If you want to just pick up that 13 other mike -- 14 A: Oh. 15 Q: -- Mr. Bressette, then we can catch 16 your ... 17 A: Right about here. 18 Q: Okay. So they were just on the edge 19 of the road, at the -- on the west side of the sandy 20 parking lot? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And do you recall when this -- what 23 time of day this was when the children were shining the 24 mirrors in their eyes? 25 A: Maybe about 12:00 when it was sunny
1961 out. 2 Q: Okay. And how many police officers 3 did you observe at the intersection of East Parkway Drive 4 and Army Camp Road at this time? 5 A: I didn't count them. 6 Q: Was there more than one (1)? 7 A: There was a group of them out there. 8 Q: Were they inside cruisers or outside 9 cruisers? 10 A: They were outside of them, standing 11 on the other side of them. 12 Q: Okay. And were there people from 13 Kettle Point in the Park on September the 5th? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And can you tell us what those people 16 were doing from Kettle Point that were at the Park? 17 A: They brought us up some sandwiches to 18 eat. 19 Q: And the -- do you recall an incident 20 with a helicopter on September the 5th? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell us about that? 23 A: It was flying really low to the 24 ground above the Park, taking pictures of everyone. 25 Q: Yes. And how do you know they were
1971 taking pictures of everyone? 2 A: There's a man hanging right out the 3 side of it with a big camera and then he was telling it 4 where to go so he could get a picture of everyone. 5 Q: Was it a video camera that you saw or 6 some other type of camera? 7 A: Some other type of camera. I don't 8 know what it was. 9 Q: Okay. And did you observe -- how -- 10 what did this helicopter do when you observed it? 11 A: It just kept coming after me, kind 12 of, to get a picture of me, because I was trying to hide 13 behind a tree. 14 Q: Yes, but was it high up or low down 15 or -- 16 A: Low to the ground. Just above the 17 tree tops. 18 Q: And what was the effect of the 19 helicopter being low to the ground? 20 A: It was blowing up all the leaves, 21 making the dust fly. 22 Q: And how long did the helicopter 23 remain in the area that you were in? 24 A: Just a few minutes and then it took 25 off.
1981 Q: And when you were in the Park that 2 day, did the helicopter come back that you can recall? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And were there media -- 5 representatives of the media or television in or around 6 the Park on Day 2, September 5th? 7 A: They were at the road. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: By the police. 10 Q: They were out in the sandy parking 11 lot near the intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army 12 Camp Road? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what were the occupiers doing, or 15 some of the occupiers doing when the media 16 representatives were outside the Park? 17 A: Doing doughnuts with their cars in 18 front of the cameras. 19 Q: And when you say "doing doughnuts", 20 what do you mean by that? 21 A: Driving crazy. 22 Q: And driving in circles? 23 A: In circles. 24 Q: And do you recall who was -- who was 25 doing this when you were there?
1991 A: No. I know one (1) of them was a car 2 Dudley rode around in, the "OPP WHO" car. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: It might have been Dudley driving it. 5 Q: Do you know who's car that was, the 6 "OPP WHO" car? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And do you know why it was called the 9 "OPP WHO" car? 10 A: They were making fun of the cops. 11 Q: And the -- and how were they doing 12 that? By simply the name? 13 A: Yeah. Just painted it on the sides 14 of it. 15 Q: And why were they doing that? Do you 16 know? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And while you were in the Park on 19 September 5th, 1995, did you observe any police officers 20 attempting to speak to any of the occupiers? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And did you observe any occupiers 23 attempting to speak to police officers? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And did you on September 5th, 1995,
2001 observe any firearms in the Park? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And were there any discussions about 4 firearms that you were a part of? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And do you recall either on September 7 -- the evening of September the 5th or -- excuse me, on 8 the evening of September the 4th are the during -- on 9 September 5th of firecrackers being lit off in the Park 10 other than the flares you told us about? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And on the evening of September the 13 4th and at any time during September the 5th, did you -- 14 while you were in the Park, hear any gunfire? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And on September the 5th, did you 17 consume any alcoholic beverages while in the Park? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what did you consume? 20 A: A bottle of beer. 21 Q: And who did you consume that with? 22 A: With Dudley. 23 Q: And did you observe anyone else 24 consuming alcohol? 25 A: A couple of girls.
2011 Q: And what happened as a result when 2 you observed that? 3 A: Dudley told them to get rid of it. 4 Q: And why did he do that? 5 A: He said it was not a very good idea 6 to have that there. 7 Q: Have the alcohol there? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And we've heard about an incident 10 about picnic tables on September the 5th, day 2, were you 11 present when picnic tables were moved out into the sandy 12 parking lot? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you hear about the incident with 15 the police officers surrounding the picnic tables? 16 A: No. 17 Q: The next day or that evening after it 18 had happened? 19 A: They -- they told me about it, the 20 occupiers, that some kids were sitting on the tables and 21 they got hit by the cop cars and that's it. I don't know 22 anything else. 23 Q: Did anyone tell -- did you know why 24 they were putting the picnic tables out in the parking 25 lot?
2021 A: No. 2 Q: And did anyone tell you why they were 3 putting the picnic tables in the sandy parking lot? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And did you stay in the Park 6 overnight on September 5th? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Where did you go? 9 A: Just back up to the built-up area to 10 sleep. 11 Q: And where did you sleep? 12 A: At Dudley's trailer. 13 Q: And Dudley's trailer was in the 14 built-up area of -- Building Number 115? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And perhaps we'll just take a moment 17 and go to that now that we've got it working. 18 Momentarily had it working. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And I wonder, Mr. Bressette, we're 23 looking at Exhibit P-41, and, as I understand it, 24 building 115 is located in that area? That's building 25 115, it's marked 115 on the actual exhibit?
2031 A: Yes. 2 Q: And your mother was staying -- and 3 that's where your Uncle Dudley George stayed and where 4 you stayed the night of September the 5th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And your mother was in building 116, 7 which was the trailer just where I'm pointing the pointer 8 right now, just by the edge of the parade ground? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And it's labelled on the actual 11 Exhibit P-41, 116. And the third trailer was 117, which 12 is on the lefthand side of P-41? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And where you moved into later was 15 the hospital complex and you were in -- it's building 45, 16 and you were in the Park that's on the north side of the 17 elevator -- I mean the hospital? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Where I've got the pointer right now? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, on September the 6th, were you 22 present when the -- there was an incident with the picnic 23 tables down in the Park? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And were you -- when you left on the
2041 evening of September the 5th, were picnic tables out in 2 the sandy parking lot? 3 A: Yeah, I seen them out there. 4 Q: Can you tell us -- describe for us 5 what you observed in the sandy parking lot? 6 A: Just that tables were there. 7 Q: And were the tables in a pile or were 8 the tables -- how were the tables set up in the sandy 9 parking lot? 10 A: Just spread out in -- in one (1) 11 spot. 12 Q: And were they in a -- in any kind of 13 formation or -- were they in a circle, were they in a 14 square, were they just haphazard? 15 A: A circle. 16 Q: And do you know why they were put in 17 a circle? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: And was there a fire in the sandy 20 parking lot when you were there? 21 A: I don't know. 22 Q: And was there a tent in the sandy 23 parking lot when you were there? 24 A: I don't know. 25 Q: And when you were in the sandy
2051 parking lot, when the picnic tables were there, what were 2 the occupiers doing? What were people doing? 3 A: Just sitting on the tables. 4 Q: And how many people were out sitting 5 on the tables; do you recall? 6 A: I don't know. 7 Q: And did you observe picnic tables 8 elsewhere in the sandy parking lot? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And can you point out on the copy of 11 Exhibit P-23 where the -- which is immediately behind 12 you, where the circle of picnic tables were when you 13 observed them on the evening of September 5th? 14 A: Right here. 15 Q: And you're pointing to an area just 16 west of the -- the fence line and the trees, there's one 17 (1), two (2), three (3), four (4) trees in a row that -- 18 on the north side of the -- of the drawing, and you're 19 pointing just to the west of that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And perhaps, just for the 22 convenience, because we're going to be using this, we 23 could mark this exhibit -- it's a copy of P-23 -- as the 24 next exhibit. I believe it would be P-81, the next 25 exhibit.
2061 THE REGISTRAR: P-81. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. We'll mark 3 that as P-81 because we're going to be using it in a few 4 moments. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT P-81: "Stan" Thompson Drawing Sept 20/95 7 marked by witness Glen Bressette, Jr. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Now, on September 6th, Day 3, can you 11 tell us what you did that day, starting from the morning? 12 A: I took Dudley to get his welfare 13 cheque in Wyomin (phonetic). 14 Q: And how -- low long did that take 15 you? 16 A: Maybe a couple of hours. 17 Q: And did you observe anything when you 18 were on this trip to Wyoming and back with Mr. -- your 19 uncle, Dudley George? 20 A: We went out through the checkpoint 21 and then we went all the way to Wyomin (phonetic) and 22 then he wanted to come to Forest next to see what the 23 Cops were doing out at the arena here and then -- 24 Q: When you say, "the arena here," do you 25 -- are you referring to the Kimball Hall skating rink and
2071 curling club complex? 2 A: Yeah, this building and then -- 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: -- we went over to the Legion Hall 5 over there. That's where they were. We turned around at 6 the end of the road there and come back just to see how 7 many cars there were? 8 Q: And when you say, "the Legion Hall," 9 I don't know where the Legion Hall is. 10 A: It's right out across the baseball 11 field. 12 Q: You're referring to outside -- 13 A: Outside of here. 14 Q: -- this complex here to the north and 15 east, I guess? 16 A: North and west? 17 Q: North and west? No. 18 North and west. Okay, it's out in the 19 parking lot on the north -- on the north side of the 20 parking lot? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what did you observe there, Mr. 25 Bressette?
2081 A: A lot of police cars. 2 Q: Can you tell us how many? 3 A: Parking lot looked full. 4 Q: Okay. And so after you -- did you 5 drive down -- did you drive across the parking lot at 6 Kimball Hall or did you go along one (1) of the streets? 7 A: Just along one (1) of the streets, 8 back out to the main road out this way. 9 Q: Along Townsend? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then you went -- what did you do? 12 Go back -- 13 A: We went -- 14 Q: -- along Highway 21? 15 A: We went back along Highway 21. 16 Q: And did you observe any police 17 officers on Highway 21? 18 A: Just when we got back to the Camp. 19 There was a checkpoint again. 20 Q: And what happened at the checkpoint 21 with the police officers? 22 A: The head guy doing the checkpoint 23 asked how I was doing. He -- he knew my name, Glen, by 24 now because he seen my licence so many times and I just 25 told him I was good.
2091 Q: And so other than that, the police 2 officer asked you how you were doing and you said, Fine, 3 and you just carried on -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- to the army camp? And the police 6 officer that you observed on September 6th, can you tell 7 -- do you recall how he was dressed? 8 A: The same way with a bulletproof vest 9 on. 10 Q: And can you describe his uniform? 11 A: It wasn't the regular uniform, it was 12 combat uniform or something. 13 Q: Well, when you say, "combat 14 uniform," -- 15 A: I don't know what kind of -- what you 16 call that. 17 Q: What colour was it, do you recall? 18 A: Light brown. 19 Q: And was it -- how -- why do you call 20 it a combat uniform? 21 A: It looks like an army uniform or 22 something. 23 Q: Just because of its colour? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. Now, after you got back to
2101 the army camp, what did you do for the balance of the 2 afternoon? 3 A: I was just driving back and forth 4 from the camp, taking stuff down. 5 Q: And when you say you were, "taking 6 stuff down," what were you taking down? 7 A: Some paper plates and some napkins. 8 Q: Oh, for -- for -- for a meal? 9 A: A meal. 10 Q: And did you have lunch or dinner in 11 the Park? 12 A: We had, I think it was, supper -- 13 lunch. 14 Q: And did -- was your mother in the 15 Park on -- your mother, Carolyn (phonetic), in the Park 16 on September the 6th? 17 A: Yes, she cooked up deer meat and then 18 brought bread for it too then gave everybody some. 19 Q: And that was when; for lunch or for 20 dinner, supper? 21 A: Supper. 22 Q: Okay. And during the afternoon of 23 September 6th, did you observe a helicopter? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And can you -- did you observe
2111 a helicopter at any time on September 6th in the Park? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And the -- were you in the Park, 4 excuse me. Was there any discussion in the Park on 5 September 6th about an injunction? 6 A: No. I -- I don't know what an 7 injunction is anyways. 8 Q: Okay. So did -- was there any -- were 9 you aware of any police officers attempting to speak to 10 any of the occupiers on September 6th in the Park? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And were you aware of any occupiers 13 trying to speak to police officers on September 6th? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And were you in the Park or outside 16 the Park when there was a incident with Gerald George? 17 A: Yeah, I was outside where it happened. 18 Q: And can you tell us where you were 19 outside when this incident happened? 20 A: Just along side the road. 21 Q: And when you say "along side the 22 road," were you on the sandy parking lot area close to the 23 paved intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp 24 Road on the corner there on Exhibit 81? 25 A: Yes.
2121 Q: And how many of the occupiers were out 2 in the sandy parking lot? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: Was there more than you? 5 A: More than me. 6 Q: Were there five (5) or six (6)? 7 A: I can't say exactly how many. 8 Q: Do you remember who else was out there 9 with you? 10 A: Stewart. 11 Q: Stewart George? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Anybody else do you remember? 16 A: No, I can't remember anyone else. 17 Q: Was David George there, do you recall? 18 A: I can't remember. 19 Q: And when you were out in the sandy 20 parking lot near the corner, were you carrying any sticks 21 or clubs? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Do you know if anyone else in the 24 group was? 25 A: No.
2131 Q: And why were you out on the sandy 2 parking lot by the edge of the road? 3 A: Just being on the lookout. 4 Q: And on the lookout for what? 5 A: For the police. 6 Q: And can you tell us what happened with 7 Mr. Gerald George that you recall? 8 A: He pulled up trying to be all buddy 9 buddy with us and those guys told him to get the fuck out 10 of here. 11 Q: And when you say "those guys," who -- 12 who are you referring to as "those guys"? 13 A: Stewart told him to get the fuck out 14 of here. 15 Q: And when you say that Mr. Gerald 16 George was trying to be all buddy buddy, what did Mr. -- 17 can you tell us a little more -- can you describe what Mr. 18 Gerald George did? 19 A: He was trying to talk to us nice but 20 people at the time knew he was writing bad stuff about us, 21 letters or something. And then they were mad at him. 22 Q: And had you seen the letter that they 23 were referring to? Or letters? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Had you been told about the letters?
2141 A: Yes. 2 Q: And so the -- did Mr. -- did anyone 3 mention the letters when Mr. Gerald George was on at the 4 intersection? 5 A: No. 6 Q: So Mr. Stewart George told Mr. Gerald 7 George to leave and what happened? 8 A: He still kept trying to talk, but he 9 got punched. 10 Q: Yeah. Who punched him? 11 A: Stewart. 12 Q: Mr. Stewart George? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then what happened? 15 A: Dave -- he threw a rock at his car as 16 he drove away. 17 Q: And did Mr. George -- Gerald George 18 say anything to Mr. Stewart George? 19 A: Your days are numbered, Worm. 20 Q: And did Mr. Gerald George say that 21 before Stewart George threw the rock at him, or after? 22 A: I think he said that before he threw 23 the rock at him. 24 Q: And had he driven apart -- had he 25 moved away from the spot where he was hit, Mr. Gerald
2151 George? Had he driven or started to drive away? 2 A: Yeah, he drove down to the next police 3 checkpoint. 4 Q: But was he driving -- did he stop -- 5 what I'm trying to get out, did he stop after he was pun - 6 - did he move after he was punched, stopped and yell at 7 Stewart George? 8 A: Yeah, he -- he got punched, and then 9 he yelled, Your days are numbered, and then he was driving 10 off and he got the back of his -- 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: -- car hit with a rock. 13 Q: Okay. And did you observe what -- was 14 it a big rock, a little rock, medium sized rock? 15 A: A rock about that big. 16 Q: And when you say -- about four (4) 17 inches or five (5) inches? 18 A: Four (4) inches. 19 Q: Four (4)inches? And where did the 20 rock come from? 21 A: Just off the ground. 22 Q: And did you observe Mr. Stewart George 23 picking up the rock? Did you see him do it? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay.
2161 A: The rock just came from somewhere. 2 Q: And then Stewart -- Mr. Gerald George 3 drove south on Army Camp Road? 4 A: Yes, south. 5 Q: And you say he stopped at -- 6 A: The next checkpoint. 7 Q: And can you tell us where the next 8 checkpoint was? 9 A: Just down the road a little bit 10 farther. You could see it. 11 Q: And was it near the intersection of 12 Army Camp Road and Matheson Drive? 13 A: A little bit past it. 14 Q: A little past there? And could you 15 see Mr. Gerald George from where you were standing on -- 16 at the intersection when he stopped at the checkpoint? 17 A: Yes, you could just see his mouth 18 really flapping away to the cops. 19 Q: And how long did Mr. Gerald George 20 spend speaking to the police officers? 21 A: Just a couple of minutes then they 22 sent him on his way. 23 Q: And -- okay. And was there another 24 vehicle that you recall came to the intersection of Army 25 Camp Drive and East Parkway -- Army Camp Road and East
2171 Parkway Drive at or about the time of the Gerald George 2 incident? 3 A: Yes, just a little bit after. 4 Q: And can you tell us what kind of -- 5 tell us about that, what happened? 6 A: He come rolling his window down, tried 7 to talk to us, too, but they just told him to get the fuck 8 out of there, too. 9 Q: And when you say he came down and 10 rolled down his window and tried to talk to you, can you - 11 - who was the person who -- who stopped? What kind of car 12 was he driving, do you recall? 13 A: It looked like a grey Ford 14 Thunderbird, probably a '90. 15 Q: And he rolled down the window and do 16 you recall what he said? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: And why did -- who spoke to him? Was 19 it Mr. Stewart George? 20 A: Yes, Mr. Stewart. 21 Q: And do you know why Mr. Stewart George 22 told him to get out of there? 23 A: He said he's probably an undercover 24 cop. 25 Q: You thought -- your group thought he
2181 was a police officer? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And was there any -- why did you think 4 he was a police officer? 5 A: He looked really spiffy, like he's 6 from the City or something, 'cause no-one ever seen him 7 before. 8 Q: He was -- you didn't recognize him 9 from being in the area? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And other than telling him to leave, 12 did -- was there any other exchange between the person in 13 the car and any of your group? 14 A: No, he just left. 15 Q: And were there any threats made to 16 him? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Were any rocks thrown at him? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And do you recall any other cars 21 coming at the intersection when you were out there? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And can you tell us how long you were 24 out at the intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army 25 Camp Road that evening, how long the --
2191 A: I can't say how long it was. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 3 we're going to stop at 4:30 today. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So maybe we 6 should stop now. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. I'd be a good 8 time. Thank you very much, Commissioner. We'll -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take 10 fifteen (15). 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 13 for fifteen (15) minutes. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 3:33 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 3:54 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now in 19 session, please be seated. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Mr. Bressette, on August -- I mean, 23 excuse me, on September the 6th, did you consume any 24 alcohol while at the -- at the Park? 25 A: Yes.
2201 Q: And what did you consume? 2 A: A bottle of beer. 3 Q: And when did you consume that, sir? 4 A: About 6:00. 5 Q: And was that at dinner time? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: When you had your supper. And did you 8 observe anyone else who had any -- any beer? 9 A: Dudley had a beer. Then two (2) other 10 girls did. 11 Q: Was that on the 6th or the 5th; I 12 thought you had told me about the girls on the 5th? 13 A: Only had the beer the one (1) time. 14 Q: Oh. So it was either on September 5th 15 or September 6th? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you said there was -- there was 18 only the one (1) time that -- that you had a beer and your 19 uncle Dudley George had a beer? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And while you were in the Park on 22 September 4th, 5th or 6th, did you use any drugs? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what did you use and when did you 25 use it?
2211 A: A marijuana joint. 2 Q: And when did you smoke the marijuana 3 joint? 4 A: I can't remember when that was, just 5 during the daytime. 6 Q: During the daytime. And do you -- did 7 you share that, the joint, with anyone? 8 A: Probably Dudley. I can't remember 9 exactly who I had it with. 10 Q: And so that was in the daytime on the 11 5th or the 6th? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And on the evening -- going back to 14 the evening of September the 6th, can you tell us after 15 the incident with Gerald George and the motorist that was 16 in the, what you believe was the 1990 Thunderbird, what 17 happened after that? What did you do after that? 18 A: Just -- I just kept hanging out down 19 there? 20 Q: On the inside or the outside of the 21 Park? 22 A: Both, inside and out. 23 Q: And was there a fire down at -- at the 24 Park that evening, the evening of September the 6th? 25 A: Yes.
2221 Q: And can you tell us where the fire 2 was? 3 A: There was two (2) of them. Two (2) 4 fires, one (1) at the picnic tables -- 5 Q: Yes. And can you tell us the size of 6 these fires? Were they small fires, medium size, big 7 fires? 8 A: It was a big fire with the picnic 9 tables and then there was another smaller fire. 10 Q: And can you tell us where the big 11 fires -- big fire with the picnic tables was located? On 12 Exhibit P-81? 13 A: The picnic tables were over here -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: -- and the smaller fire was down here 16 somewhere. 17 Q: Okay, could you mark on the -- on P-81 18 using that black pen, the approximate location of the -- 19 big fire with the picnic tables? 20 And could you mark that with the Number 1, 21 please, Mr. Bressette? 22 And then mark where the smaller fire was. 23 And mark that with Number 2. 24 And do you recall -- 25 MR. MARK SANDLER: Mr. Millar, I can't see
2231 from here. Is the Number 1 inside or outside the fence? 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I believe it's 3 supposed to be inside the fence but it -- was it inside 4 the fence? 5 THE WITNESS: Inside the fence. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The problem is our -- 7 our plan gets a little scrunched up at that part. 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: I just wanted to 9 clarify that. Thank you. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: So the large fire with the picnic 13 table was on the inside of the Park? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: It was in the parking lot on the 16 inside of the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then can you tell us, because of 19 the location on this Exhibit P-81, can you tell us how far 20 from the fence line the fire was? Do you recall? 21 A: The big fire? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: It was pretty close to it. 24 Q: Pretty close? And can you tell us how 25 far the smaller fire was from the fence line?
2241 A: A little bit farther away. 2 Q: A little -- 3 A: I don't know how far exactly. 4 Q: And what was the mood like in the camp 5 in the early evening of -- I mean in the Park in the early 6 evening of September the 6th? 7 A: Everyone was really happy and 8 exciting, rambunctious. 9 Q: And during the evening of September 10 the 6th, did that change, that mood? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And when did it change and why? 13 A: Well, everyone's mood changed 'cause 14 they knew the cops were going to come in and try 15 something. 16 Q: And how do you -- how do you know 17 that, Mr. Bressette? On what do you base that? 18 A: Everyone just had this feeling. 19 Q: Okay. I can only ask you about 20 yourself or what others may have told you -- 21 A: Okay. I had this feeling. 22 Q: No, no. But -- but what created the 23 feeling within you? Why did you think that? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2251 A: Well the roads were blocked off by the 2 police -- 3 Q: And when you say the "roads were 4 blocked off by the police" -- 5 A: They weren't letting traffic drive 6 through any more. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: You couldn't see civilians walking 9 around. 10 Q: And when did that happen, sir? 11 A: When it got dark. 12 Q: When it got dark? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And so the traffic along East Parkway 15 Drive and Army Camp Road stopped when it got dark? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And prior to it getting dark, you -- 18 there were civilians, as you put it, walking in the area 19 on the roads? 20 A: No, they were gone. 21 Q: But before they stopped, there had 22 been people walking around the road? 23 A: Yes, they were -- the police were 24 evacuating people from their homes. 25 Q: And how do you know that?
2261 A: We seen them. 2 Q: And what did you see? 3 A: See somebody pull a big boat out of 4 there and those people were gone. 5 Q: Now this, when you say you saw someone 6 pull a big boat out of somewhere -- 7 A: There was a house right over there and 8 you could see the -- see him take his boat out and a bunch 9 of his stuff and then he was gone. 10 Q: Is that the -- 11 A: That was during the daytime. 12 Q: And which -- there's a -- I understand 13 there's a large white cottage that's close to the beach 14 next to the sandy parking lot, is that -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- the cottage you're referring to? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: How do you -- on what do you base that 19 he left because of the police? He may have just simply 20 been moving. 21 A: The police were helping him move his 22 stuff and it looked like an evacuation or something. 23 Q: You observed that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And how many police officers were with
2271 him? 2 A: I don't know. I don't know how many 3 there were. 4 Q: Did you see any other police officers, 5 Mr. Bressette, that afternoon assisting residents of the 6 cottages? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. Was there anything else? 9 A: The checkpoint that was there packed 10 up and left. 11 Q: The checkpoint that was where? At the 12 intersection? 13 A: At the intersection. 14 Q: The police officers left. But they 15 left before you went out -- before the Gerald -- Gerald 16 George incident? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And was -- there was a checkpoint that 19 Gerald George stopped at. Was that -- did that checkpoint 20 remain? 21 A: It was still there. 22 Q: And did you personally observe them 23 stopping cars at that checkpoint near Matheson Drive? 24 A: There wasn't any more cars. 25 Q: Coming by the intersection?
2281 A: Yes. 2 Q: So were you present in the Park when 3 Mr. Cecil Bernard George arrived at the Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did Mr. Cecil Bernard George come 6 with anyone else? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And who did he come with? 9 A: Jeremiah George. 10 Q: And who is Jeremiah George? 11 A: I think he's his brother. 12 Q: Okay. And what happened when they 13 arrived? 14 A: They gave me a good scare because they 15 come jumping out of the bushes with camouflage on. 16 Q: And where were you when they came out 17 of the bushes? 18 A: I was throwing picnic tables on the 19 fire. 20 Q: So you were up in the north part of 21 the parking lot on the inside of the -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- Park? Is that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you see where when they jumped
2291 out of the bushes, how had they gotten there, do you know? 2 A: They said they snuck all the way 3 through there from Kettle Point. 4 Q: And -- all the way through. Did they 5 come by the beach? Did they tell you they came by the 6 beach or by a road? 7 A: They said they came by the beach. 8 Q: Okay. And did Mr. Cecil Bernard 9 George or his brother Jeremiah George have anything with 10 them? 11 A: Walkie talkies. 12 Q: And anything else? 13 A: Maybe a police scanner? 14 Q: And what happened with the police 15 scanner and the walkie talkies? Did they tell you why 16 they brought them? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And did you listen to the police 19 scanner? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And do you recall anything that you 22 heard on the police scanner? 23 A: I couldn't understand it. It was 24 police code or something. 25 Q: Okay. And what happened with Cecil
2301 Bernard George and after you had listened to the police 2 scanner, what happened then? 3 A: We just stood around for a little 4 while. 5 Q: Okay. And did Mr. Cecil Bernard 6 George go anywhere at some point? 7 A: He went down East Parkway Drive after 8 it was dark. 9 Q: And do you know why he went down East 10 Parkway Drive? 11 A: He went down to look to see if the 12 police were coming. 13 Q: And how do you know that? 14 A: He was with his walkie-talkie, talking 15 back to the people in the Park. 16 Q: And he was reporting what he saw 17 through his walkie-talkie? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And did you see anyone else go out 20 onto East Parkway Drive when Mr. Cecil Bernard George went 21 down East Parkway Drive, do you recall? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And when Mr. Cecil Bernard George was 24 down on East Parkway Drive, were you inside or outside of 25 the Park?
2311 A: I was inside the Park. 2 Q: And at any time when Mr. Cecil Bernard 3 George was going down -- was down on East Parkway Drive, 4 did you go outside the Park? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Were there others -- Occupiers out in 7 the park -- sandy parking lot? 8 A: There might have been, but I can't say 9 if there was. 10 Q: Okay. And at one (1) point, did Mr. 11 Cecil Bernard George report that on the police movements? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what did he tell the people in the 14 -- could you hear the walkie-talkie where you were? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And what did he say? 17 A: He said they were starting to come 18 towards us now. 19 Q: And did he say anything else about the 20 police other than, They were starting to come towards us? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And how long after that did Mr. Cecil 23 Bernard George come back to the Park? 24 A: Maybe about five (5) minutes. 25 Q: And apart from the two (2) bonfires,
2321 that you told us about, were there any other -- was there 2 any other lighting inside the Park? 3 A: I can't remember if the park store 4 lights were on anymore. 5 Q: And the Park Store had lights outside. 6 There were light pole -- light standards outside the park 7 store? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And do you know if -- you can't -- can 10 you recall if they were on? 11 A: No, I can't. 12 Q: And did anyone have a spotlight? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And how many spotlights were there? 15 A: Two (2). 16 Q: And do you know who had the 17 spotlights? 18 A: Everybody was passing them around. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: I don't know who had -- I don't know 21 whose they were. 22 Q: Okay, and were they hooked up to a car 23 or were they battery operated? 24 A: Battery operated. 25 Q: Okay, and who -- when Cecil Bernard
2331 George came back into the Park, what did he say about the 2 police officers, if anything? 3 A: He said, They're starting to come 4 towards us. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: They're still coming. 7 Q: -- where were you located and the 8 other Occupiers located when that happened? 9 A: I was inside of the Park. 10 Q: And were there any people outside the 11 Park in the sandy parking lot? 12 A: I can't say if there was or not. 13 Q: Okay. And how many Occupiers were 14 there in the area when Cecil Bernard George came back to 15 recon -- and -- and said the police were coming down East 16 Parkway Drive? 17 A: About twenty (20). 18 Q: And can you recall who was there? 19 A: Dudley, Elwood, Judas, Worm. 20 Q: David George? 21 A: Yes, and Joe. 22 Q: Clayton -- Clayton George? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And were any other members of your 25 family there?
2341 A: My mother was. 2 Q: And what did your mother do? Did she 3 stay or did she go? 4 A: One (1) of the guys told her to go up 5 front and get some help, they were starting to come in 6 now. 7 Q: And when you say, To go up front, what 8 are you referring to as "up front"? 9 A: The built-up area. 10 Q: Okay. And did you see the police 11 officers on East Parkway Drive? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And can you tell us how far down East 14 Parkway Drive they were when you first saw them? 15 A: As far as that bright spotlight could 16 shine. You could see their shields starting to shine. 17 Q: And there's a curve in East Parkway 18 Drive, as I understand it, that you can't see be -- beyond 19 that if you're standing down in the sandy parking lot, is 20 that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And was -- was it after -- east of 23 that curve where they could first be seen, the police 24 officers? 25 A: I can't really tell.
2351 Q: Okay. And -- 2 A: Just the spotlights started lighting 3 them up. 4 Q: And when you were able to see the 5 police officers, can you tell us what -- what the -- how 6 the police officers were moving? 7 A: In formation, all walking in -- in a 8 line. 9 Q: And -- and were they in rows, 10 different rows or in one (1) long line, as they were 11 walking down East Parkway Drive? 12 A: In rows, side by side. 13 Q: Okay. And do you know -- can you tell 14 us how many rows? 15 A: I can't tell. 16 Q: And can you tell me what they were 17 wearing? 18 A: They had shields, -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- helmet, bullet-proof vests, and I 21 thought they had gas masks on and then something on their 22 back to hold a tank. And then they had things to protect 23 their legs and they were carrying these small little 24 batons or something that extend out when you swing them. 25 Q: And when you say that they were
2361 wearing gas masks, were you able to see their faces? 2 A: You could just see a little, wee spot 3 through the centre there. I couldn't tell who they were. 4 Q: But you could see their face through-- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- they had a shield on. There was a 7 shield on their helmet? 8 A: And another flip down one (1) and then 9 it got pretty hard to see them. 10 Q: Okay. And when the police got to the 11 end of East Parkway Drive what did they do? 12 A: They started to spread out in three 13 (3) rows in front of the fence where everybody was at. 14 Q: And on Exhibit P-81 could you take the 15 black marker and point out where the three (3) rows of 16 police officers were, approximately? Could you just draw 17 three (3) lines where you think they were? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And how many -- do you recall how many 22 police officers that were there, Mr. Bressette? 23 A: I never counted them. Maybe there was 24 fifty (50). 25 Q: Okay. And when the police officers
2371 lined up in the parking lot, where were you and the other 2 occupiers? 3 A: I was back here. 4 Q: And can you mark on Exhibit P-81 with 5 a Number 3 where you were located? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And were you standing with anyone? 10 A: Beside Dudley. 11 Q: And was your uncle, Dudley George, on 12 your -- north of you or south of you, do you recall? 13 A: North. 14 Q: And did you have any conversation with 15 your uncle? 16 A: Yes, I said that I was scared and then 17 he said to just stay right here. 18 Q: And what happened? The police 19 officers were lined up on the outside and the occupiers 20 were on the inside of the -- the Park. 21 Were the other occupiers along the fence 22 line as well? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then what happened? 25 A: They charged at us a few times, they'd
2381 run at us real quick, bang on their shields then they'd 2 back up again. Then they'd do it over again. 3 Q: And the first time that the police 4 officers banged on their shields and ran up to the fence, 5 were there occupiers outside on the -- of the Park on the 6 sandy parking lot? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Had all -- were there occupiers on the 9 sandy parking lot when the police officers reached the end 10 of East Parkway Drive before they got onto the sandy 11 parking lot? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And when the police officers arrived 14 at the end of East Parkway Drive, what did -- the 15 occupiers went back inside the Park? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And were the police officers banging 18 on their shields as they came down East Parkway Drive? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And at one (1) point did you observe 21 an incident with a dog? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And when did that happen? 24 A: When they were standing in that 25 formation in front of us, the dog went out and started
2391 smelling up their legs. 2 Q: And do you know whose dog it was? 3 A: Worm's? 4 Q: That's -- 5 A: Stewart. 6 Q: -- Mr. Stewart George? And do you 7 know what kind of dog it was? 8 A: I -- a black lab or something. 9 Q: And what happened with the dog? 10 A: One (1) of them kicked it or hit it or 11 something. Then it started squealing. 12 Q: And was that before the police 13 officers charged the fence the first time? 14 A: I think it was after. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: But I can't say exactly. 17 Q: And did anyone -- was there any 18 exchange between the police officers and the occupiers and 19 particular Mr. Stewart George when the dog was kicked? 20 A: Stewart said, Who the fuck kicked my 21 dog? And he was yelling at them. 22 Q: And was Mr. Stewart George inside the 23 Park or out on the sandy parking lot? 24 A: Inside the Park. 25 Q: Okay. And can you tell us how many
2401 times that you recall that the police officers came up to 2 the fence line? 3 A: I think three (3) times. 4 Q: And the -- what happened when the 5 police officers came up to the fence line? 6 A: It really worked up the people there. 7 They were starting to throw stuff. 8 Q: At the police officers? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And had they -- had you collected -- 11 the occupiers collected stones and sticks and rocks in the 12 afternoon -- or in the evening before the police officers 13 came down East Parkway Drive? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And why had the occupiers done that? 16 A: To throw at the police. 17 Q: And why did you think it was going -- 18 you were going to be throwing things at the police? 19 A: I thought they were going to use tear 20 gas on us or something. 21 Q: And this collection of stones and 22 sticks and rocks, was that -- did that take place in the 23 evening or in the afternoon. 24 A: In the evening. 25 Q: Okay. And did the police try to come
2411 into the Park? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And did the occupiers and the police 4 engage along the fence where they're fighting along the 5 fence line when the police officers came up to the fence? 6 A: Just throwing stuff. I was throwing 7 those rocks that they collected up and then we ran out. 8 Q: And at one (1) -- when you ran out, 9 was that -- at one (1) point did you observe Cecil Bernard 10 George go out into the sandy parking lot? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did he go out before or after the 13 occupiers ran out into the sandy parking lot? 14 A: Before. 15 Q: And can you tell us where Cecil 16 Bernard George was when you first observed him going out 17 into the sandy parking lot? 18 A: By the turnstile. 19 Q: And the turnstile is shown on Exhibit 20 P-81 to the west of number 2 and did you see Cecil Bernard 21 George by the turnstile? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And when Cecil Bernard George -- prior 24 to Cecil Bernard George going out into the sandy parking 25 lot, had there been any discussions or verbal exchanges
2421 between the police officers and the occupiers? 2 A: Everyone was yelling at him. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: I don't know if the cops were yelling 5 back. 6 Q: But the -- and can you recall what the 7 occupiers were yelling at the police officers? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And did you hear any police officers 10 trying to speak to the occupiers? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And when Mr. Cecil Bernard George went 13 out into the parking lot, what was he carrying? 14 A: He had a club. 15 Q: And can you tell me what type of club 16 he was carrying? 17 A: It looked like a wooden club. 18 Q: And do you know how long it was? 19 A: Maybe this long. 20 Q: And by that, you mean about four (4) 21 feet -- three (3) or four (4) feet? 22 A: Three (3) or four (4) feet. 23 Q: And did you hear Mr. Cecil Bernard 24 George say anything to the police officers? 25 A: I'll take you on, then.
2431 Q: Did he say anything else? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And do you recall him other -- saying 4 something like, They were a bunch of assholes? 5 A: No, I don't remember that. 6 Q: Okay. And you gave a statement to the 7 SIU, Mr. Bressette, and that statement appears at Tab 1 of 8 that book before you. And at page 4 of that statement, 9 sir, if you look on the -- just down the -- about a third 10 of the way down. 11 In the book that you've got, if you go to 12 Tab 1 at the back, very back, Mr. Bressette, at the very 13 last tab, and that's a statement that you gave to the SIU 14 on the 10th of September, 1997. 15 If you go to page 4 and you will see the -- 16 the fourth entry down where it says "Glen", can you just 17 read that? 18 A: The part where it says, "Slippery goes 19 running out", there -- 20 Q: Yeah, with the -- 21 A: With the club in his hand? 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: "Come on then, you bunch of assholes. 24 I'll take you on on." 25 Q: And then --
2441 A: "And then that's when they grabbed 2 him. 3 Q: Does that refresh your memory as to 4 what Mr. Cecil Bernard George may have said on the evening 5 of September 6th? 6 A: Yes, that does. 7 Q: And do you recall Mr. Cecil Bernard 8 George saying those words? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And what happened after Mr. Cecil 11 Bernard George yelled at the police officers on the 12 outside of the fence in the sandy parking lot? Did he 13 engage the police officers? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did you see him strike a shield of a 16 police officer? 17 A: Try to and then they grabbed his arm. 18 Q: The police officers grabbed his arm? 19 And then what happened? 20 A: They pulled him right through the 21 middle of them all. Then he was behind them. 22 Q: And -- and can you point out on 23 Exhibit P-81 and mark with the number 4 where you observed 24 Mr. Cecil Bernard George being caught by -- grabbed by the 25 police officers?
2451 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And, perhaps what we could do is, mark 5 the lines -- the three (3) lines with a number 3A, 6 actually. I should have asked you to mark that with number 7 4, Mr. Bressette, but the three (3) lines that you've 8 drawn on there, could you just put in the -- on the top of 9 those, number 3A. 10 And we need to do that for the purposes of 11 the record. And 3A refers to the formation when the 12 police officers first came into the sandy parking lot; is 13 that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And after they charged the fence and 16 retreated the first time, did they go back into the -- the 17 same formation or did they go somewhere else? 18 A: Just back into the same formation. 19 Q: Okay. With lines of police officers? 20 Then, Mr. Cecil Bernard George, you've marked with a 21 Number 4 where he was when the police officers grabbed 22 him. 23 Did they move forward in a line and grabbed 24 him, or did he move right up to their line? 25 A: He moved up pretty close to them.
2461 Q: To the police officers? 2 A: I can't remember if the police line 3 came forward and got him. 4 Q: Okay. But at any rate, he was 5 grabbed. You saw him try to strike at the police 6 officers? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And he was grabbed by the police 9 officers And then what happened? 10 A: They pulled him right through the 11 middle of their group. 12 Q: And did you see where he was taken? 13 A: They took him out to East Parkway 14 Drive. 15 Q: And did you see what was happening 16 while he was being dragged out to East Parkway Drive or 17 taken out to East Parkway Drive? 18 A: You could see him getting beat up by 19 police officers? 20 Q: And where was that? On the sandy 21 parking lot or on East Parkway Drive? 22 A: East Parkway Drive. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: And -- 25 Q: Pardon?
2471 A: It was in the tail lights of a van. 2 Q: Can you show us on Exhibit P-81 where 3 you observed Mr. Cecil Bernard George being hit -- struck 4 by the police officers? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And could you mark that with the 9 number 5? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And you've indicated -- you said there 14 was a van, a police -- a van on East Parkway Drive? 15 A: Yeah, it drove up with its lights off. 16 Q: And was it pointed towards the sandy 17 parking lot or away? 18 A: Pointed towards. 19 Q: And you say that you -- you said 20 initially that you could see Mr. Cecil Bernard George in 21 its -- I thought you said tail lights? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So I -- I don't quite understand. If 24 the -- if the van's pointing towards the sandy parking lot 25 how you saw the --
2481 A: It would have been with his foot on 2 the brake and that would light him up. 3 Q: But if was pointed towards you, the 4 tail lights would be away from you. 5 A: I know. 6 Q: Oh, so they -- the -- you could see 7 Cecil Bernard George behind the van. 8 A: Behind the van. 9 Q: Is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And could you draw on Exhibit P-81 12 where the van was located, just put a square And a number 13 6. 14 A: A square. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: So, you saw Mr. Cecil Bernard George 19 dragged away by the police. What did the -- what did you 20 do? 21 A: Everyone was saying, we got to go help 22 him. 23 Q: Yes. And then what happened? 24 A: People were starting to go outside of 25 the fence and starting to challenge them.
2491 Q: Challenge the police officers? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what did you do? 4 A: I stayed back for a little while and 5 then I thought I'd better get out there and help our guys. 6 And then that's when they decided to ram them with the 7 bus, so we got to get a dumpster out of the way. 8 Q: And can you tell me where the dumpster 9 was? 10 A: Right here. 11 Q: And could you mark on the P-81 and 12 square where the dumpster was located? It was the outside 13 of the Park, along by the gate, is that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Could you mark on P-81 where the 16 dumpster was, please, and mark it with a seven (7). 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Now that's a very large square. It 21 was not that large, was it, the dumpster? 22 A: I can't remember how big the dumpster 23 was. It took a few of us to lift it up and move it out of 24 the way. 25 Q: Okay. And so at this point in time
2501 prior to moving the dumpster, were you -- when you were on 2 the inside of the Park, were you doing anything with 3 respect to the police? Were you throwing things at them? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what were you throwing at the 6 police officers? 7 A: Clubs. But I ran out of those too. 8 Q: And by clubs you mean pieces of wood 9 or -- or actual clubs? 10 A: Actual clubs. 11 Q: And they were -- and the clubs were 12 made of what? Wood? 13 A: Chopped down small sturdy little 14 trees. 15 Q: Okay. And then you said that a 16 decision was made to take the bus out, how was that 17 decision made? What happened there? 18 A: Everybody just started yelling. Got 19 to get that dumpster out of the way and ram that bus 20 through the police and try and get through to Bernard. 21 Q: And the -- did -- you assisted in 22 moving the dumpster? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the bus went out into the sandy 25 parking lot?
2511 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you observe the progress of 3 the bus? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And can you point out on Exhibit P81 6 where the bus -- where the bus went? And if you could 7 just take that microphone if you get up, Mr. Bressette, 8 yes. 9 A: Okay. The bus came up this far. 10 Q: When you say this far. Can you point 11 out -- can you make a square on East Parkway Drive where 12 the bus went out to as far as you could tell? And could 13 you mark a number 8? And that was as far as you saw the 14 bus go down? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And how fast was the bus going when 17 you saw it? 18 A: Not very fast. Because it needed to 19 gear up to get speed. It was too short of a distance for 20 it to go fast. 21 Q: And did you -- what did you do when 22 the bus went out through the gate after the dumpster was 23 moved? 24 A: I jumped back here because there was 25 another car flying out too.
2521 Q: Oh, a car came -- the car -- a car 2 came out after the bus? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you see who was driving the 5 car? 6 A: That was my cousin Waldo. 7 Q: And that's Mr. Warren George? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And where did the car go? 10 A: Straight into the other side of the 11 police formation. These police here moved back that way 12 and they were attacking us. 13 Q: The police -- the police at -- that 14 were lined up in the sandy parking lot, moved back to East 15 Parkway Drive? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And did they move back to East Parkway 18 Drive after Cecil Bernard George went out? 19 A: Yes. They had him behind them. 20 Q: And were they lined up along the fence 21 on the north and the south side of East Parkway Drive, the 22 police officers? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Were they across the road or along the 25 fence?
2531 A: Across the road. 2 Q: Across the road. And so could you 3 point out the farthest point that you recall the car 4 having gone down East Parkway Drive? 5 A: Around here. 6 Q: And could you mark that and put a nine 7 (9) on the square where the car went? 8 A: A nine (9). 9 Q: And prior to the bus and the car going 10 out and prior to Cecil Bernard George going out into the 11 sandy parking lot, did you observe any lights from outside 12 the Park? 13 A: Prior to? 14 Q: Cecil Bernard George going out. Did 15 you see any lights from outside the Park? 16 A: There was somebody with a -- a 17 flashlight or something shining it down on us right there. 18 I don't know who it was. 19 Q: And -- and where was that light 20 shining from? 21 A: Right about here. 22 Q: On the inside of the Park or on the 23 outside? 24 A: On the inside. 25 Q: And is there a berm on the inside of
2541 the Park at that point? 2 A: A what? 3 Q: A berm. Is there a pile of sand on 4 the inside of the Park there? 5 A: Yes, there was. Right along in here. 6 Q: And -- and could you see who was 7 holding the light? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And after the bus and car went out -- 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: The witness has indicated 11 where with his finger but we haven't marked -- 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Mr. Roland's correct. Could you mark 15 on Exhibit P-81 where you observed the light and mark it 16 with number 10. 17 And did you see anyone holding the light, 18 or just saw the light? 19 A: I just saw the light. 20 Q: Okay. And after the bus and the car 21 went -- after the car went by you going out of the Park, 22 how fast was the car going? I may have asked you this 23 but... 24 A: Pretty fast. 25 Q: And what did you do then?
2551 A: I took off running out there after it 2 to go and give those guys some help. 3 Q: And were you -- where were you running 4 towards? 5 A: Behind the car. 6 Q: Towards East Parkway Drive? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And did you -- were you carrying 9 anything in your hand? 10 A: I was picking up clubs off of the 11 ground that we already threw. 12 Q: Yes. And what were you doing with 13 them? 14 A: Throwing them right into the police 15 formation. 16 Q: And did you -- were you struck by the 17 police? Did you get close enough to be struck by the 18 police? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And you were out in the sandy parking 21 lot, did you get to the pavement of the intersection of 22 East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And when -- how far down East Parkway 25 Drive did you go?
2561 A: Right in between where the car and the 2 bus was. 3 Q: Okay. Could you mark this with an X 4 and put number 11 the farthest you went down East Parkway 5 Drive? 6 A: An X and a number 11? 7 Q: Yeah. And when you got to that point, 8 what happened? 9 A: That car immediately started backing 10 up because it was getting shot, so, I had to jump out of 11 the way and land on the ground because it was backing up 12 right at me. 13 Q: And when you say the car was being 14 shot at, did you observe people shooting at the car? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And what did you see? 17 A: Two (2) police officers came out of 18 the bushes over here. 19 Q: And when you say "out of the bushes 20 over here," you're talking about on the south side of East 21 Parkway Drive? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And can you mark on Exhibit P-81 with 24 an X where the shots were coming -- that the shots came 25 from, to the best of your recollection.
2571 And how many shots did you hear? 2 A: It was hard to tell. There was two 3 (2) handguns going off at it. 4 Q: There were two (2) -- you could hear 5 two (2) handguns? 6 A: I could see them. 7 Q: Oh, you saw them. So could you put a 8 second X there. Were the handguns in the same position? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And okay could you put another X then 11 if there were two (2) people there. 12 And could you mark it with the number 12 13 beside that. 14 And you saw the -- so did you see the 15 people holding the guns or you just saw the -- 16 A: I seen them holding the guns. 17 Q: And the -- were they the police 18 officers -- how were those police officers dressed? 19 A: They didn't have a shield. They were 20 dressed almost the same way only in lighter clothes 21 because they came running out of the bush. 22 Q: You saw them come out of the bush? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And the bush to the south of -- on the 25 south side of East Parkway Drive in that field?
2581 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what then happened? 3 A: After the car backed up, I kept 4 throwing a few more big chunks of those clubs at the crowd 5 control unit. And then they were still shooting, I 6 thought I better get out of here, so, I started running 7 back this way and that's where I seen Dudley laying on the 8 ground. 9 Q: And when you saw your Uncle Dudley 10 George lying on the ground, was he alone or were other 11 people -- were there other people with him? 12 A: There was a group of people all around 13 him checking him out. 14 Q: And can you point out on Exhibit P-81 15 and mark with a circle where you saw Mr. Dudley George on 16 the ground. And could you write a number 13 beside that? 17 And then what happened? 18 A: I started yelling and screaming, Hurry 19 up, get him in the car. 20 Q: And had the bus -- where was the bus 21 and the car at this point? 22 A: The bus I don't think backed up yet. 23 Q: Okay. And the -- had the -- 24 A: The car was backed in there already. 25 Q: Into the Park? And so, what happened
2591 with Mr. George? Did you help carry him in or did others 2 carry him into the Park? 3 A: Others did. I couldn't even get a 4 hold of one (1) of his legs to help them get him in the 5 car, there were so many people that wanted to help him. 6 Q: And at -- when did -- and where the 7 bus at this point, do you -- do you recall when the bus 8 came back into the Park? 9 A: It was after they loaded Dudley up 10 because it was a little bit of trouble backing that big 11 thing up. 12 Q: Okay. And do you know who was driving 13 the bus? 14 A: No, not at the time. 15 Q: You learned later who was driving? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you learned later it was Nicholas 18 Cottrelle? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And did you know at the time who was 21 driving the car? Did you know it was your cousin? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And after the -- Mr. -- Dudley 24 -- your uncle, Dudley George, was placed in the car, can 25 you tell us what car it was he was placed in?
2601 A: The "OPP Who" car. 2 Q: And then do you recall who was in the 3 "OPP Who" Car? 4 A: No, I don't know who was in there. 5 Q: And the car left towards the army 6 camp? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then what happened? 9 A: We -- Dudley was gone, we backed up 10 the bus and got it back into the Park, then we rolled the 11 dumpster back over that opening. 12 Q: The gate? Yes. And then what 13 happened? 14 A: I sat around for I don't know how long 15 just looking down the road there, holding a club waiting 16 to see if the cops were going to come back. 17 Q: And what did the police -- when did 18 the police officers move down East Parkway Drive away from 19 the sandy parking lot? 20 A: After Dudley got shot. 21 Q: And did you observe them leaving and 22 going down East Parkway Drive? Did you see them? 23 A: I seen them all just turn at once and 24 then take off running. 25 Q: And did you hear anything? Any --
2611 commands or anyone say anything? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And when you were in the Park after 4 the police went down East Parkway Drive and Mr. Dudley 5 George had been taken away, were there other people in the 6 Park with you at that time? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what did you do next? 9 A: Everyone got together in a group and 10 went out where the shooting was and then they were picking 11 up empty shell casings. 12 Q: And did you pick up any? 13 A: I didn't. 14 Q: You didn't? And do you recall who was 15 out in the group that was out picking up shell casings? 16 A: Glenn was. 17 Q: That's Glenn George? 18 A: Glenn George. He was putting them -- 19 putting them -- putting them in a bag. 20 Q: And anyone else? 21 A: There were people sticking a little 22 stick inside of the ends of them and picking them up and 23 putting them -- putting them in those bags. 24 Q: Okay. And do you recall the other 25 people who were -- any other person besides Mr. Glenn
2621 George who was doing that? 2 A: No, no. 3 Q: And when did you -- can you tell us 4 how many shots you heard fired? 5 A: I couldn't tell. 6 Q: Okay. And during this confrontation, 7 did any of the occupiers have firearms with them? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And after the -- when did you learn 10 that your uncle, Dudley George, had passed away? 11 A: We called up to the hospital and then 12 the hospital said he died. 13 Q: And do you recall who called the 14 hospital and from where? 15 A: Dave George did, from the telephone at 16 the Park Store. 17 Q: Park Store? And what was your 18 reaction and the reaction of the group after you learned 19 that your uncle had passed away? 20 A: Everybody got bummed out and then some 21 of the people started crying 'cause they liked Dudley so 22 much. 23 Q: And what did you do? 24 A: I just thought that was a bummer. 25 Q: And how long did you stay in the Park
2631 after that? 2 A: I sat around by the -- by a fire then 3 I started getting sleepy and I asked Dave to give me a 4 ride home and then he took me home. 5 Q: And you -- when you went home, you 6 went to the Army camp? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And where were you staying at that 9 point? 10 A: I stayed at my mother's trailer that 11 night. 12 Q: Okay. And did you learn that the Park 13 store was burned down? 14 A: Not 'til the next morning? 15 Q: Where you there when the Park store 16 was burned down? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And the next morning on September the 19 7th, what did you do, after you got up? 20 A: I went for a ride in the car by 21 myself, all the way down the other end of the beach, 22 turned around and come back and went for a ride through 23 the Park. Then I seen that the Park store got burned down 24 overnight. 25 Q: Yes?
2641 A: Then I turned around and went for a 2 ride all the way back up to the built-up area. 3 Q: In the Army camp? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And was this -- at some point, some 6 people came from Kettle Point, is that correct? On 7 September 7th? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And was this before or after the 10 people came from Kettle Point? 11 A: Before. 12 Q: And when you were in the -- were you 13 were in the built-up area of the Army camp when the people 14 came down Highway 21 from Kettle Point? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And do you recall how many people 17 there were? 18 A: Coming down the road? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: No, it couldn't be counted. 21 Q: And -- there were a lot of people? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what was your -- where were you 24 when you first saw the people coming down Highway 21? 25 A: At the gate house.
2651 Q: And what was your reaction when you 2 saw the people coming down Highway 21? 3 A: A great relief. 4 Q: And why was that? 5 A: Some of the people and myself thought, 6 like, we were trapped in there, in the camp. Like we 7 couldn't go anywhere 'cause no one wanted to venture out 8 because of the way the police were acting. 9 Q: And when you say "no one wanted to 10 venture out because of the way the police were acting", 11 what was -- what was your concern? What was your concern? 12 A: They had their checkpoints on the 13 roads everywhere and like you couldn't drive anywhere. 14 Q: And -- okay. Anything else as to why 15 you were concerned about the police? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you -- did you -- we've heard 18 evidence that people went down East Parkway Drive to the 19 Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot on the morning 20 of September 7th. 21 Did you go down to the Ministry of Natural 22 Resources parking lot? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And after the people came to the Army 25 Camp from Kettle Point, what did you do?
2661 A: Started greeting some of the people as 2 they came in. There was a lot of people to talk to. 3 Q: Yes. And did you go down to the Park 4 with the people from Kettle Point or did you stay in the 5 Army Camp? 6 A: I stayed in the Army Camp most of the 7 day. 8 Q: Okay. And how would you describe, 9 prior to his passing away, your relationship with your 10 uncle Dudley George? 11 A: Oh, I miss him. I still do. I wasn't 12 happy when that happened at the time. 13 Q: And did you have a -- how would you 14 describe your relationship with him? Was it a close 15 relationship? 16 A: A close relationship. 17 Q: And after the -- when the people came 18 down the road from Kettle Point on Highway 21, were there 19 -- was there still a checkpoint at the -- at Highway 21 20 and Army Camp Road that you saw, as the people were coming 21 down? 22 A: It cleared out pretty quick once they 23 seen that crowd coming. 24 Q: So there was one (1) and the people 25 left?
2671 A: Yes. 2 Q: And before we finish, is there 3 anything else that you would like to tell the Commissioner 4 about this incident, Mr. Bressette, or say to the 5 Commissioner? 6 A: There could be more negotiations with 7 the -- the government so things like this don't happen 8 again, like, go and see what the Natives' issues are. 9 Q: You would like the government to do 10 that, the government of Canada? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Thank you, those are my questions, 13 Commissioner. I know that we've gone a little longer, but 14 I wanted to finish with Mr. Bressette in-chief. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm glad 16 we've finished. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, Mr. Bressette, 18 what we'll do is we'll adjourn -- be adjourning in a 19 moment until tomorrow morning. And tomorrow morning we 20 start at 9:00 and the other lawyers who we'll hear from in 21 a moment will be asking you some questions. 22 So you might -- we might ask who wants to 23 cross-examine. 24 25 (WITNESS RETIRES)
2681 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can we do a 3 quick canvass around regarding who might wish to 4 cross-examine and roughly estimate a time as we've done 5 before? Who might wish to cross-examine, please stand up. 6 One (1) -- yes, how long do you anticipate you might be? 7 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I reserve ten (10) 8 minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 10 marking this down -- 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Ten 13 (10) minutes and how long -- 14 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Ten (10) to fifteen 15 (15) minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) to 17 fifteen (15)? Mr. Eylofson...? 18 MR. BRIAN EYLOFSON: Maybe ten (10) 19 minutes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 21 Sandler...? 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: Maybe fifteen (15) 23 minutes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roland? 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: I will reserve an hour.
2691 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Reserve an 2 hour? 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 5 how long did you say, I can't hear you. 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: I said I'll reserve an 7 hour, I need to -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 9 thank you. Mr. Downard...? 10 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Fifteen (15) minutes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 12 Sulman...? 13 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Approximately fifteen 14 (15) minutes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 16 minutes. If everybody stays to those times we should get 17 -- get it finished easily tomorrow. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, if everyone stays 19 to those times, we should finish, actually with Mr. 20 Bressette in the morning and our next witness will be Mr. 21 Dale Plain (phonetic) for the benefit of My Friends, 22 hopefully we'll finish -- we're going to start tomorrow 23 morning at nine o'clock again, sir, and stop at 3:30. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay.
2701 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, thank 2 you very much. We'll adjourn now until tomorrow morning 3 at nine o'clock. 4 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 5 Public Inquiry is adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday 6 November 10th at 9:00 a.m. 7 8 --- Upon adjourning at 5:54 p.m. 9 10 11 12 Certified Correct 13 14 15 16 17 18 _____________________ 19 Dustin Warnock, Mr. 20 21 22 23 24 25