11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 8th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 18 (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) (np) 25 Sue Freeborn )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) (np) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) (np) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 Megan Mackey ) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 20 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 CLAYTON MORRIS GEORGE, JR., Resumed: 6 Continued Examination-in-chief 7 By Mr. Donald Worme 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 49 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 51 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Mark Sandler 57 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian McGilp 105 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 153 13 14 MICHAEL WAYNE CLOUD, Sworn: 15 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 162 16 17 18 19 20 Certificate of Transcript 247 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-78 "Stan" Thompson drawing September 4 20/95, marked by witness 5 Clayton Morris George,Jr. 48 6 P-79 "Stan" Thompson Drawing Sept 7 20/95 marked by the witness 8 Wayne Cloud 217 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:33 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, Mr. 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. Good morning everyone. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. George, may I remind 11 you, sir, that you are still under Oath. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 14 CLAYTON MORRIS GEORGE, JR., Resumed: 15 16 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: Mr. George, we'd left off last day at 18 the end of the events that you were recounting for us of 19 September the 5th, 1995. We were about to move into the 20 -- September the 6th of 1995. Do you recall that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Just before we get there, however, I 23 just want to take a moment to lead you through what I 24 understand to be your criminal record. Is that okay? 25 A: Yeah.
81 Q: Now as I understand it, on April the 2 11th of 1989, you were convicted of a break and enter out 3 of the town of Forrest for which you received a suspended 4 sentence and twelve (12) months' probation? 5 A: Yes, I remember that. 6 Q: You were convicted at the same time 7 of a theft under for which you received a ten (10) day 8 sentence? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: On April the 10th of 1991, out of 11 Sarnia, you were convicted of mischief over a thousand 12 dollars ($1,000), for which you received a fifty-dollar 13 ($50) fine? 14 A: From what I remember, yes. 15 Q: All right. And a fifty-dollar ($50) 16 fine as well for a fail to attend Court, I'm assuming 17 arising of the same incident? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: On May the 11th of 1992, out of 20 Sarnia, you were convicted of a theft under, for which 21 you received a ten (10) day sentence? 22 A: Yes, from what I can remember. 23 Q: And a ten (10) day consecutive 24 sentence for a fail to attend, which I'm assuming arose 25 again out of the same incident?
91 A: Yes. I don't -- I don't remember 2 that one neither -- recall that one. 3 Q: In 1992, November the 4th, out of 4 Sarnia, you were convicted of possession of stolen 5 property, for which you received a thirty (30) day 6 sentence? 7 A: Yes, from what I remember. 8 Q: And a fail to comply with a 9 recognizance, for which you received an additional 10 fifteen (15) days by the looks of it? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And lastly, Mr. George, on the 26th 13 of September 1994, you were convicted of four (4) counts 14 of assault, for which you received twenty-five (25) days 15 plus twelve (12) months probation? 16 A: Yes, from what I remember. 17 Q: And an additional two (2) counts of 18 an -- of assault, for which you received ten (10) days on 19 each count, plus twelve (12) months' probation together 20 with a five (5) year firearm prohibition? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And just in relation to that last 23 incident, Mr. George, I have a Park Complaint and 24 Occurrence Report, and for the benefit a Counsel, that is 25 document number 1008002, and it is an incident report
101 that is dated the 21st of May 1994. 2 I've given you an opportunity to review 3 that. You -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And it describes a Native youth by 6 the name of Joe, with long black hair; did you have long 7 black hair in 1994, Mr. George? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: And it would indicate that several 10 articles of clothing were dis -- were recovered as 11 evidently they were taken off during the course of your 12 being involved in a fight, I take it? 13 A: Yes. I don't remember -- remember 14 too much about that night neither. 15 Q: Okay. Can you tell us why you don't 16 remember too much about that night? 17 A: That was because I was heavily 18 drinking that night, all night. 19 Q: All right. And do you recall that 20 you were charged as well with being unlawfully -- 21 unlawfully remaining in the Park after closing hours? Is 22 that something that you remember, arising out of that 23 same incident? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Hmm hmm. And did you, as a result of
111 that, receive a notice banning you from the Park, Mr. 2 George? 3 A: Yes. I remember that, in Court. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, Mr. 5 Worme. Was that 1994? 6 MR. DONALD WORME: That was 1994, that's 7 correct, Your Honour. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: 21st of May is the 10 date of the incident report. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: Do you know how long that ban was 14 meant to last? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Do you know whether -- 17 A: I forget. 18 Q: -- whether it had an expiry period 19 that is? 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: All right. I've also provided you 22 with a copy of a letter which is apparently signed by one 23 G.E. Allison (phonetic), Sergeant, it's on Ontario 24 Provincial Police letterhead, it's dated May the 24th of 25 1994, and it was addressed to the Superintendent of the
121 Ontario Provincial Police. 2 You've had a chance to review that 3 document as well, Mr. George, and for the benefit of 4 counsel, that is Inquiry document number 2002449. 5 And, Mr. George, on the second page of 6 that document, it would seen to be a description of the 7 events complained about in the Park Complaint and 8 Occurrence Report; is that fair? 9 A: Yes, from what I can remember. 10 Q: And it seems to describe you engaging 11 a number of other youth down on the beach, putting people 12 in bear hugs and that sort of thing; do you recall any of 13 -- any of these events -- 14 A: No, I don't. 15 Q: -- at all, Mr. George? 16 A: No. 17 Q: You did appear in Court on them 18 nonetheless, I gather? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And what happened at Court? 21 A: I pleaded guilty to all charges. 22 Q: It would seem it would -- that you 23 would have pleaded guilty a matter of days later. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And were you incarcerated
131 during that entire period that you awaited -- from the 2 time that you were arrested for those events to the time 3 that you pleaded guilty? 4 A: I was out on bail hearing. 5 Q: Okay. I've also provided you with a 6 copy of Ontario Provincial Police news release, or a 7 communique, and that is Inquiry Document Number 2001673, 8 that is dated May the 22nd of 1994 and it relates again 9 to the same incident, Mr. George. 10 Do you agree with that? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Can you run that question by again? 15 Q: Just with respect to the news release 16 or the communique, it's a very short document. It seems 17 to refer again to the same incident that you've just 18 acknowledged for us, that you have very little 19 recollection about? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: But I don't remember -- recall -- 23 remember this neither. 24 Q: All right. Fair enough. And if I 25 refer you nextly to Inquiry Document Number 1010312 which
141 is again a weekend update, it would appear to be an 2 update with respect to events occurring at various places 3 including the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And if you'll go down to the 6 incidents --in the middle of the page it says -- it 7 reads: 8 "Incidents involving Ipperwash Campers 9 and First Nation People". 10 You've had a chance to review that, Mr. 11 George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: With respect to the first incident, 14 two (2) campers walking on the beach dunes area, they 15 were alleging that they were assaulted by a number of 16 people. Do you have any recollection as to whether or 17 not you know anything or whether you were involved in 18 that incident? 19 A: No. 20 Q: There's a second incident that's 21 reported, again bearing the same date of May 21st, '94: 22 "Campers in Ipperwash Park were 23 assaulted in the Campgrounds by a 24 native person identified as Clayton 25 George."
151 I gather again that is the same incident 2 that you've -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- already acknowledged for us. 5 A: Yes. I don't remember 'cause I was 6 drunk at the time too. 7 Q: Thank you. Lastly, Mr. George, there 8 is an article from the London Free Press that has Inquiry 9 Document Number 2001825. It is from the London Free 10 Press, Section B, Tuesday, May 24th, 1994. 11 You've had a chance to review that 12 document? 13 A: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 15 Ross? 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, that 17 appears to be Page 1 of full news item. I believe the 18 second page is the next number, which is 826, and I 19 believe that 827 is also part of the same document and I 20 would ask Commission Counsel to have all sections as one 21 (1) document. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: I thank My Friend for 23 that, Mr. Commissioner, and we will endeavour to obtain 24 the documents and have them marked as exhibits, then. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
161 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: They're right here. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: Oh are they? I don't - 3 - I don't have copies of those, so I'll get copies and 4 we'll make them proper exhibits. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 6 copies, Mr. Ross, of the other parts of the document? 7 MR. DONALD WORME: I can certainly run 8 them off our database -- 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I don't think we need 10 to -- I think they are in the disclosure. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: It's just that this is 13 one (1) portion of the entire document. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Again, I thank Mr. Ross 16 for that and I'm sure he'll -- he'll raise it at an 17 appropriate moment. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: You've had a chance to read, in any 21 event, Mr. George, the first page of this and it sort of 22 describes again, the same incident. 23 A: The first page of this Free Press? 24 Q: Right. 25 A: No, I didn't, no.
171 Q: You -- you didn't read it? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Well let me just take you through it 4 briefly if I may. It reads: 5 "Campers cottagers harassed. Three 6 instances of assault on the weekend are 7 being investigated by the police." 8 Reads the headline. Are you with me 9 there? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: It says residents, and I'm going to 12 read just a portion of this. 13 "Residents of West Ipperwash Beach fear 14 the three incidents of assault by 15 Natives on campers and cottagers on the 16 local beaches during the Victoria Day 17 weekend signal the onset of another 18 year of harassment by Native militants 19 over a land claim to the beachfront 20 community." 21 And there's a quote here, it reads: 22 "We have been sold down the river by 23 the OPP and the federal solicitor 24 general's department who have it clear 25 that we're on our own, Marylou Pratt
181 said Monday. They have as much told us 2 the Natives can do whatever they want 3 and we have to take it." 4 First of all, do you know who Marylou 5 Pratt is? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: It goes on in the next paragraph to 8 say that: 9 "Two male campers were ordered off the 10 beach at the Canadian Forces Base 11 Ipperwash then kicked and punched by a 12 gang of about ten (10) natives." 13 And I think you've already indicated you 14 don't know anything about the incident? 15 A: No, I don't. 16 Q: And then it goes on to report 17 specifically that: 18 "In a second incident Clayton Morris 19 George Jr. of the Stoney Point First 20 Nation territory has been charged with 21 one count of assault against a female 22 on the beach in the Park, Forrest OPP 23 said. Police said other charges are to 24 be laid in connection with the incident 25 which involved three females."
191 Do you follow that, Mr. George? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you'll agree with me that the 4 earlier narration of this event in Inquiry Document 5 2002449 in fact talks about other males as opposed to 6 other females. 7 In any event, Mr. George, that is your 8 criminal record? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. I want to take you then 11 to September the 6th of 1995. You have indicated to us 12 that you had remained at the Park throughout that period 13 although you had travelled back and forth -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- between the built-up area and the 16 Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: I believe you had also indicated to 19 us last day, Mr. George, that you had been there since 20 September the 4th, and had not slept in the preceding two 21 (2) days or nights. 22 A: No. Had no sleep since -- 23 Q: Had you been drinking at all during 24 that period? 25 A: No.
201 Q: Did you witness an incident with 2 respect to picnic tables and/or police cars on the 3 morning of September the 6th? 4 A: No, I don't. 5 Q: Do you recall observing a helicopter 6 over the Park on September the 6th? 7 A: As far as I could remember, I seen 8 just -- just the one and I don't know what colour it was 9 though. 10 Q: Right. Did you see whether or not 11 there was anybody in the helicopter? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did you do anything by way of 14 throwing rocks at the helicopter or any such thing? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: Were you able to hit the helicopter? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And why not? 19 A: Because too much wind from the 20 propellers would slow it down. 21 Q: Did you see Cecil Bernard George 22 arrive at the Park? 23 A: No. I don't know where -- what time 24 he showed up or how he got in. 25 Q: You did see him at the Park though?
211 A: Yes. 2 Q: But you didn't see how he arrived? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Do you recall what time it might have 5 been? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: Did you see whether -- when you did 8 see Cecil Bernard George whether he brought any items 9 with him such as walkie talkies or police scanners or any 10 other electronic equipment? 11 A: Yes. He had two (2) walkie talkies 12 and a scanner, hand held scanner. 13 Q: And did you see what he did with 14 these devices? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Were you involved in using any of 17 these devices? 18 A: No, I wasn't. 19 Q: Did you speak at all with Cecil 20 Bernard George? 21 A: No, I didn't. 22 Q: We're given to understand that these 23 scanners would not work unless they were properly 24 encoded. 25 A: That's right.
221 Q: And do you know anything about how 2 they were made functional? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Can you tell us what was going on in 5 the park during the day of September the 6th? 6 A: During the day? We were just having 7 lunch and stuff and -- all that; a bunch of kids running 8 around. 9 Q: When you say "a bunch of kids", how 10 many is a bunch of kids? 11 A: Give or take, about a dozen. 12 Q: And what would you estimate the ages 13 of these kids to be? 14 A: I can't even remember. 15 Q: Are we -- are we talking children or 16 are -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- we talking older children? 19 A: A little bit older children. 20 Q: You're not talking toddlers or 21 anything? A: No. Nine (9) and up. 22 Q: Okay. And what would you say the 23 mood is -- the mood was of the -- of the people that were 24 in the Park during that day? 25 A: They were all still happy that we --
231 we were in the Park still and nothing happened over the 2 night. 3 Q: Were there any interactions, to your 4 knowledge, with the police during the daytime of the -- 5 of September the 6th? 6 A: Well, like, I can't remember. 7 Q: All right. And you do remember that 8 at some point, perhaps towards the evening of September 9 the 6th, the arrival of the Ontario Provincial Police? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Would you tell us about that, please? 12 A: I think before they were coming, I -- 13 when I checked out to see where -- how far they were down 14 on the road, we were -- like, there was a little bend on 15 Parkway Drive, you had to walk out so far to see down the 16 road. 17 And I noticed there was two (2) OPP 18 officers walking on each side of the road and two (2) 19 vans on -- or a van on each side and behind them vehicles 20 was -- was all OPP's. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Then I ran back and told them that 23 they were coming down the road. 24 Q: Now, there is a -- a map on the back, 25 right behind you, which purports to be the intersection
241 of Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive. Do you 2 recognize that, Mr. George? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And would you just use the laser 5 pointer for a moment there and indicate where it was that 6 you went down so that you were able to observe two (2) 7 officers on either side of the road? 8 A: Yes. I had to come out about -- 9 about that far. 10 Q: And you're indicating just before an 11 intersection on East Parkway Drive? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: It's a driveway into a cottage; is 14 it? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And is there a number on that 17 driveway, Mr. George? 18 A: Yes, there is. I don't know what it 19 is though. 20 Q: All right. Is there one marked on 21 the map, there, that you can see from your point? 22 A: Yes, there is. 23 Q: And -- and what is that number? 24 A: That's the -- the lot number, I 25 guess, or the number for the house.
251 Q: And what number is that? 2 A: Number 6842. 3 Q: Thank you. Perhaps you can take that 4 red marker -- or red pen in front of you and just 5 indicate where the two (2) officers were. If you could 6 simply make circles and put the numbers 1 and 2 inside 7 each of those. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: If you could just go ahead, Mr. 12 George, and mark -- 13 A: Yes. That's part of the road is not 14 on there though. 15 Q: Oh, I see. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: All right. So the position where you 20 first observed the two (2) officers on either side of the 21 road is further down and out of that particular diagram? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And perhaps you can simply indicate 24 where you were standing? 25
261 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Yeah, would you put a circle there 4 and a Number 1, please, Mr. George? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And so what you observed was two (2) 9 officers on either side of the road, I think you were 10 describing -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- for us. And -- and go ahead. I 13 wonder if you could just finish that. 14 A: Well, when I first walked out on the 15 road and -- to see how far they were coming down the road 16 and I seen they were about -- at least five (5) feet 17 apart in front of each other, crouched down, walking at 18 the same time. 19 Q: Okay. Was there only two (2)? 20 A: Yes, there was two (2) on each side. 21 Q: All right. Now, were you carrying 22 anything in your hands at the time, Mr. George? 23 A: A stick. 24 Q: Okay. Can you tell me if it was dark 25 or not --
271 A: Yes, it was. 2 Q: -- at this point. 3 A: Yes, it was. 4 Q: And do you know what time it might 5 have been approximately? 6 A: Between 9:30 and 10:00, like around 7 there rough -- roughly. 8 Q: All right. And after you made this 9 observation, what did you do? 10 A: I went running back behind -- back to 11 the other guys behind the fence. 12 Q: Okay. Were you smoking a cigarette 13 or anything at that time, if you can recall? 14 A: I can't remember if I was or not. 15 Q: Okay. So you run back to the Park 16 and -- 17 A: Let them know that they were on their 18 way down the road. 19 Q: Okay. What's the next thing that 20 happens? 21 A: I believe the first time they were 22 coming they were kind of stomping their feet, like a 23 double time. 24 Q: Go ahead. 25 A: The first time they were coming down
281 the road they were walking and I think they were doing 2 double time at -- at some point. 3 Then they -- they walked -- come up so far 4 to the fence and -- and we were all standing along the 5 fence on -- inside the Park, hollering obscenity -- 6 obscenity words -- words back and forth to the cops. 7 Then they backed off and then come back 8 again and then that's when they were doing double time, 9 'cause you can hear their boots hitting the pavement on 10 the road and they were clanging their shields at the same 11 time and running. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: When you say that they marched up to 16 the fence, I wonder if you could indicate on that map 17 behind you with the laser pointer, Mr. George. 18 A: The first time? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: (Indicating). That was the first 21 time. 22 Q: That's as far as they came? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You're indicating up just before -- 25 A: Yes.
291 Q: -- the fence line and the sandy 2 parking lot. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And can you tell us how 5 many officers there were at -- that you observed at that 6 point? 7 A: Oh, they stretched right -- right 8 across -- right across the sandy road too, almost to the 9 -- to the embankment there. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: And I don't know how many was behind 12 them. I'd say about three (3) more dozen. Three (3) or 13 four (4) dozen behind them. 14 Q: So how many in total did you estimate 15 were coming up toward the fence as you've described it? 16 A: Roughly, about thirty (30) to forty 17 (40). 18 Q: Okay. Can you tell us how they were 19 dressed? 20 A: They were dressed in their black 21 suits with -- with padding on their -- shin pads on their 22 legs, elbow pads, helmets with -- with the shields on the 23 front and -- four (4) foot shields and they had steel 24 batons and wooden batons. 25 Q: Okay. And did it appear to you that
301 everyone of these roughly thirty (30) to forty (40) were 2 dressed in the same way? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. When you indicated that 5 there was yelling of obscenities back and forth, am I to 6 understand that that was going both ways? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And do you recall the words that were 9 being used? 10 A: No, I don't. Just the ones I was 11 using. 12 Q: You've indicated on the second rush, 13 that they were running; is that what I understand? 14 A: Double-timing it. 15 Q: And clanging their shields, I think 16 you've -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- indicated? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: What happens at that point when 21 they're coming double time, clanging their shields? 22 A: They come up closer to the fence the 23 second time. 24 Q: Continue. 25 A: I -- yeah, I think that's how it
311 went. I was on the -- on our side I was closer to the 2 beach on that end of the line. Then they were backing up 3 and that's when we started going over the fence and 4 throwing stones at them. 5 Q: Can you tell me why you went over the 6 fence and started throwing stones at them? 7 A: Because the -- well we were all -- 8 well we were all yelling at them, at the same time 9 throwing stones and stuff, that they were on our land, on 10 that part of the land. 11 Q: Continue. What happens next? 12 A: Then they backed off and I don't know 13 how far they went down the road, then they come back 14 again. And the farthest they come was to the end of the 15 -- end of the pavement on the road. 16 Q: Okay. And what happens? 17 A: From what I could remember, everybody 18 was -- everybody was fighting and then that's when the 19 bus come out, it come out after that. 20 Q: And what happens when the bus comes 21 out, Mr. George? 22 A: It went as far as the pavement road. 23 Q: Yes, would you -- would you point to 24 the map behind you with the laser pointer, please. 25 You're indicated approximately the centre area of --
321 A: Yes, that's -- 2 Q: -- the middle of the sandy parking 3 lot? 4 A: Yes, that's -- that's where the front 5 of the bus was stopped. 6 Q: All right. Would you be good enough, 7 then, to maybe indicate with the red marker, if you could 8 draw the -- a diagram to represent the bus at the 9 furthest place down the road that you would have recalled 10 it going? 11 I don't know what the last number you 12 used, but perhaps I will get you to put a number beside 13 that, if you would. That would be the number 2. 14 THE REGISTRAR: Number 2. 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, Mr. 16 Registrar. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: So, after you see the bus coming 20 out -- first of all, did you -- did you witness the bus 21 leaving the Park to go into the parking lot? 22 A: Yes, because I had to move off to the 23 side. 24 Q: Okay. Can you tell us the speed at 25 which the bus was travelling when it moved out of the
331 Park into the sandy parking lot? 2 A: Yeah. Within the -- with walking 3 distance, like, where you can walk right beside it, 4 coming out. 5 Q: Right. What happens next then, Mr. 6 George? 7 A: As the bus was coming out, there was 8 me, Robert and Dudley, we're -- we're all off to the 9 side. 10 Q: Which side? You're indicating the 11 driver's side of the bus? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Go ahead. 14 A: We were walking out and after the bus 15 was outside the gate, walking beside it. We were in 16 front of each other at first, when the bus was coming 17 out, then as we were coming out the bus was pretty much 18 past us and we kind of walked out in a line, like one (1) 19 at a time. 20 Q: You're indicated shoulder to 21 shoulder; is that right? 22 A: Yes, pretty much. And then we were 23 about five (5) -- five (5), six (6) feet apart from each 24 other when we were walking out. 25 Q: Go ahead.
341 A: Then as we were all -- all out in the 2 open, then that's when I head three (3) quick -- three 3 (3) quick shots from the same direction's the cops were 4 coming from. Then after that, a split second, then 5 that's when all the other shots come out. 6 Q: And when you say all the other shots, 7 how many does that mean? 8 A: Roughly a hundred (100) rounds. 9 Q: Are you familiar with automatic 10 gunfire, Mr. George? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And could you tell us whether or not 13 all of these other shots you heard were distinguishable 14 from automatic gunfire or not? 15 A: No, I couldn't tell because there 16 were so many going off all at the same time. 17 Q: Do you recall seeing any muzzle 18 flash? 19 A: No. 20 Q: With respect to the bus in 21 particular, do you recall whether or not you'd seen any 22 muzzle flash emanating from inside the bus? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Now did you see Warren George at any 25 point operating a motor vehicle?
351 A: No. I didn't see him come out or 2 anything. 3 Q: I gather you would have subsequently 4 found out that he was also operating a vehicle perhaps on 5 the other side of the bus? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: In terms of the lighting of the area, 8 when you say that you were walking shoulder to shoulder 9 with Robert, I gather that's Robert Isaac? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And Dudley George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Can you recall what the lighting was 14 in that area? 15 A: Well, the -- that light that was on 16 the corner faces out -- faces out towards the East Park - 17 - East Parkway Drive and that's sitting right around in 18 there. 19 Q: So you recall that there was a street 20 light -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- in that location? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you recall that the street light 25 was on, do you?
361 A: Yes. 2 Q: What about spotlights either from the 3 police side or from the -- 4 A: No, I didn't see nothing on their 5 side. 6 Q: -- side of the Park? 7 A: I never seen them from their side. 8 Q: What about from inside the Park? 9 A: Yes. I used my brother's -- brother 10 Dave's spotlight out of his car to see where they -- how 11 far they were down the road. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: And I couldn't see them though. Not 14 through the -- with the street light on because the -- 15 the light from the street light was -- made the spotlight 16 light not as bright. It blocks it out. 17 Q: And can you tell us when it was that 18 you were using this spotlight? Was it before the police 19 first approached the fence line? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Then I gather you would have left the 22 spotlight to somebody else and took up a position at the 23 fence line -- 24 A: No, I put it back in the car. 25 Q: -- closest to the beach is it?
371 A: Yes. 2 Q: At any point whether ... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: At any point during the time that the 7 police approached the fence line, did you hear whether 8 they had any conversations with anybody on your side of 9 the fence line? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Could you hear whether there were any 12 orders being issued or otherwise? 13 A: No. 14 Q: There was no talking at all? No 15 communication other than the shouting of obscenities back 16 and forth? 17 A: Yeah. That's basically about it. 18 Q: Now am I to understand, Mr. George, 19 that there were three (3) movements of police toward the 20 fence line? 21 A: I don't remember that part too -- too 22 clearly. 23 Q: But in any event you've told us that 24 there was a movement of people from within the Park 25 outside into the parking lot?
381 A: Yes. 2 Q: And according to your recollection, 3 the only reason for moving into the parking lot was to 4 try to get them to leave. And I think you told us that 5 they were on your land? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now at any point in time did you see 8 Cecil Bernard George in the company of police officers at 9 that point? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I'm not too sure if I seen him or not 14 in that -- about that part. 15 Q: Now, Mr. George, under Tab 3 of the - 16 - of the documents in front of you, and this Inquiry 17 Document umber 1004555, you had provided a statement to 18 the SIU, September 10th of 1997. Do you recall giving 19 that statement, first of all, Mr. George? 20 A: No, I wasn't, because I wasn't sure 21 if I -- if I talked to them or not. 22 Q: And having had a chance to read that 23 statement, does it help you at all to recall any of the 24 events of that date? 25 A: Yeah.
391 Q: Hmm hmm. And you'll note on Page 2 2 you indicated that everything happened so quickly. 3 A: Yes, it did. 4 Q: You indicated -- in terms of a 5 question was asked of you by Mr. Kennedy: 6 "Did you see Cecil Bernard George get 7 arrested?" 8 Answer: 9 "No, everything happened so quickly". 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Can you tell us how long the whole 12 event took? 13 A: To me it was like two (2) minutes. A 14 minute to two (2) minutes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And during this confrontation with 19 the OPP that you've described for us, what was your -- 20 what was your role in these activities? 21 A: Well I was just hollering at them. 22 Q: You've indicated earlier, though, 23 that you were throwing stones. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Anything else, Mr.
401 George? 2 A: That's -- from what I can remember. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Do you recall, for example, Mr. 7 George, whether you might have had a stick or something 8 in your hands. 9 A: No, that was the second time when I 10 done that, was throwing stones at them. 11 Q: Okay. So your only involvement in 12 terms of this confrontation with the police was to throw 13 stones? 14 A: Yes, to get them off our land. 15 Q: All right. And then you've indicated 16 to us that you heard three (3) quick shots then all of 17 the shooting started -- 18 A: Yes, that was after Robert, Dudley 19 and me were in the wide open and Dudley was in the open, 20 and then that's when I heard those three (3) quick shots 21 and then -- then all the other ones come out. 22 Q: So tell us what happens at that 23 point? 24 A: After I heard those first three (3) I 25 kind of ducked down, then -- then -- I was still walking
411 and all the rest of them -- the rest of the shots come 2 out and then I turned around and run behind a dumpster. 3 Q: Okay. Go ahead. 4 A: And I can -- you can hear the bullets 5 whizzing by. They were whizzing by me when I was running 6 -- running, too. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And I didn't know what to think after 9 that because I was -- my first time ever getting shot at 10 by cops. 11 Q: Okay. Have you been shot at by other 12 people? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. So what happens after -- 15 after that, Mr. George? 16 A: I was just shocked. Just blank mind 17 going through my mind. 18 Q: I'm sorry? 19 A: Just -- just like my mind went blank. 20 Q: Yes, go ahead. 21 A: And then after the shooting was done, 22 I come back out toward Dudley was laying. I didn't know 23 that to think after that neither. Then we -- I don't 24 know who all -- who was out carrying him back to the "OPP 25 WHO" car, but I remember getting in the passenger side
421 and J.T. was in the back seat with Dudley, and Robert 2 Isaac was -- was the driver. And then we took off in his 3 car up to the built-up area, to the gate then we 4 transferred him into -- from Robert's car into Pierre's 5 car. 6 Q: Now you indicated that you came out 7 from behind the dumpster and went up to where Dudley was 8 laying? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Where was that if you can refer to 11 the map, please? 12 A: Like mark it on there? 13 Q: Yes, please. You've put the number 3 14 beside that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did you notice what injuries Mr. 17 George, that is Dudley George, had on him at that point? 18 A: No. Not until we were in the car 19 half ways up the built-up area. 20 Q: And what did you see? 21 A: J.T. told me that he was bleeding 22 from up by his chest area here. 23 Q: You're indicating up by your 24 collarbone? 25 A: Yes, somewhere in that area.
431 Q: On the left side? 2 A: And I had to take my shirt off to 3 tell him to put -- put it on his bullet wound. 4 Q: You did that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: After Dudley George was transferred 7 to Pierre's car what did you do? 8 A: I had to go back to my -- my building 9 to get another shirt. 10 Q: And? 11 A: And then I met up with Marlin and 12 told him what happened. And I don't remember anything 13 else after that. Don't remember how I got back down the 14 Park after that neither. 15 Q: Did you go back to the Park? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And once you were back at the Park, 18 what did you do? 19 A: Hung around there for a while with 20 the people that were still down there. I don't know who 21 was all down there still. Then we come back up and we 22 were all sitting around at Glenn George's place. 23 Q: When you say at Glenn George's place, 24 do you mean back at the built-up area? 25 A: Yes.
441 Q: When you were at the Park, were you 2 involved in -- in the building or making of Molotov 3 cocktails? 4 A: No, I wasn't. They were already made 5 by the time I was back down there. 6 Q: Do you know why these were made? 7 A: For the store. 8 Q: And what happened? 9 A: Until we got word back from about 10 Dudley and then found out about that, then that's when we 11 went ahead and burnt it down. 12 Q: And did you participate in that, Mr. 13 George? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: And is it your recollection today 16 that you returned to the built-up area or did you stay in 17 the Park? 18 A: I was back up at the built-up area. 19 Q: Do you know when that was? 20 A: Just getting daylight. Just the 21 break of daylight. 22 Q: That would have been then on the 7th 23 of September? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Did you participate in going down
451 East Parkway Drive on -- on the morning or afternoon of 2 the 7th of September? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And did you participate in the search 5 of that area, that is to say, the sandy parking lot and 6 area adjacent to that, including East Parkway Drive, to 7 recover any spent bullet casings? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did you find anything? 10 A: Yes. I found three (3) empty 11 casings. 12 Q: What did you find? 13 A: I found a 243 empty casing, a 9 mm 14 empty casing and a 40 calibre empty casing. 15 Q: Did you say a 243 -- 16 A: Yes, no -- no, 223. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: I'm sorry. 19 Q: And what did you do with these items? 20 A: I handed them to the SIU. 21 Q: Do you know who in particular? 22 A: No. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
461 Q: Is there anything else about this 2 event, Mr. George, that you could tell us about today 3 that you think would assist us in understanding what 4 happened? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Can you run that by again? 9 Q: Just if there's anything further that 10 you would like to add that might help us in terms of 11 understanding what went on. 12 A: Well, there was -- there was -- 13 just going to have to let me think about that. 14 Q: It's been very difficult for you, I - 15 - I take it? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: I think those are all my questions, 18 Mr. Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 20 to take a break. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Yeah, I think it's -- 22 if we could take a break -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 24 like to have a break now? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
471 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 2 like a little break? Take a break. Just take a fifteen 3 (15) minute recess. 4 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 5 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 11:23 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 11:41 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 13 we begin there's something that I wanted to advise you of 14 and My Friends. At the end of the September the Ontario 15 Provincial Police provided some disclosure with respect 16 to the helicopter incident to us and due to inadvertence 17 that did not get scanned and disclosed to My Friends. 18 Part of it has been provided to -- a brief 19 has -- part of the brief has been provided this morning 20 but I do apologize to everyone. It was -- it was simply 21 I -- it was simply overlooked and we'll get it out as 22 soon as we can, but it won't be until next week, 23 probably. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Those are all my
481 questions of this witness, Mr. Commissioner. The only 2 thing that I would ask, then, is that the map be marked 3 as an exhibit. I believe that will be P-78. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-78 your Honour. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-78. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-78: "Stan" Thompson drawing 8 September 20/95, marked by 9 witness Clayton Morris 10 George,Jr. 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, well 13 we usually do a quick go around to see what the state of 14 cross-examination may be with this witness. 15 Does anybody intend to cross-examine this 16 witness? Please indicate by -- I think the easiest thing 17 to do is stand up. 18 Okay, one (1), two (2), three (3), four 19 (4), five (5). All right, Mr. Klippenstein, how long do 20 you anticipate you might be? 21 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Mr. Basil 22 Alexander, Student-at-Law, will be asking maybe five (5) 23 or ten minutes of cross. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much. And how long do you anticipate?
491 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Five (5) to ten (10) 2 minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Mr. 4 Sandler...? 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: Forty-five (45) 6 minutes to an hour. Perhaps less. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir, on 8 behalf of the OPPA...? 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: An hour to an hour and a 10 half. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr 12 Downard on behalf of -- 13 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I reserve half an 14 hour, maybe less. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, with a 16 little bit of luck let's carry on. Are you -- you're 17 first up. 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 20 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 21 A: Good morning. 22 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I 23 represent the Estate of Dudley George as well as five (5) 24 of his brothers and sisters, including Sam George, who's 25 sitting here beside me.
501 You've already talked a little bit about 2 your family tree and I want to explore that a little bit 3 more. I understand that your grandfather was Abraham 4 George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you know the -- do you know the 7 name of Abraham George's father, you would be your great- 8 grandfather? 9 A: No. 10 Q: We've heard evidence that Abraham 11 George's father, that would be your great-grandfather, 12 was Robert George. Do you have any reason to disagree 13 with this evidence? 14 A: I'm not too sure. 15 Q: And do you know the name of Robert 16 George's father, who would be your great-great- 17 grandfather? 18 A: No. 19 Q: We've heard evidence that Robert 20 George's father, who would be your great-great- 21 grandfather, was Albert George, also known as Komone. 22 Do you have any reason to disagree with 23 that evidence? 24 A: No, I don't. 25 Q: Do you know where Albert George
511 lived? 2 A: I really don't know too much about 3 them. 4 Q: So you don't know their -- 5 A: NO. 6 Q: No. Okay. We've heard evidence that 7 he lived in what used to be Ipperwash Provincial Park. 8 Do you have any reason to disagree with that evidence? 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: So if this is true, when you occupied 11 the Park in 1995, you were occupying lands on which your 12 great-grand -- great-great-grandfather had lived; 13 correct? 14 A: Possibly, yes. 15 Q: Those are my questions, Mr. George. 16 Thank you very much. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 21 Q: Hello, Mr. George. My name is Jackie 22 Esmonde. I'm one (1) of the lawyers representing 23 Aazhoodena and the George Family Group, which includes 24 some of the children of Dan and Melva George. I just 25 have a few questions for you this morning.
521 Now, you've told us about a search of the 2 camp in 1993. Did the police officers who searched your 3 camp show you any documents such as a search warrant 4 before -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- they searched your camp? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No? Did they say anything to you 9 about why they had the right to be searching your home? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And where did they look in your camp, 12 generally? 13 A: Basically everywhere. 14 Q: How did they treat you during the 15 search? 16 A: I didn't -- didn't -- I just 17 basically hung around, didn't -- didn't bother too much 18 getting in the way or asking questions. 19 Q: So you didn't interact -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: -- with them very much during the 22 search? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And what was the state of your 25 campsite after they left?
531 A: It was in a big mess. 2 Q: Now, in the last day you told us 3 about an incident on September 5th, 1995, in which your - 4 - you believe your car was hit by a stone? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And how did you know it was hit by a 7 stone? 8 A: Well, because I heard it hit -- hit 9 the back of my car. 10 Q: So -- 11 A: Somewheres in the back. 12 Q: -- you heard a sound and -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- and it sounded like a stone -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- hitting your car? You -- did you 17 see a stone? 18 A: No. I know what it sounds like when 19 it hits -- hits the vehicle. 20 Q: Okay. And was it a loud sound? Did 21 it sound like a pebble hitting your car or something 22 bigger than -- 23 A: Fair size hit. 24 Q: And you -- you stated that the police 25 threw it at your car?
541 A: Yes. There was nobody else on the 2 road but them. 3 Q: So that -- did you actually see a 4 police officer throw -- 5 A: No, I didn't -- 6 Q: -- the stone? 7 A: but I -- I re -- reckon that they did 8 throw it. 9 Q: It came from the -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- area where they were? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I have a few questions about the 14 picnic table incident that you witnessed. And I believe 15 in your testimony earlier you said you saw one (1) 16 cruiser? 17 A: Yes. That was it. Then -- then it 18 was at nighttime. 19 Q: Okay. Did you see how many officers 20 were in -- 21 A: NO. 22 Q: -- the cruiser? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Were there any other officers 25 standing on the road?
551 A: Not that I know of. 2 Q: And how many of your group were in 3 the sandy parking lot at that time? 4 A: I don't know. It -- it was hard to 5 say because I was -- I was helping bringing that -- 6 picnic tables to the fence. 7 Q: You were on the other side of the 8 fence -- 9 A: Yes -- 10 Q: -- at the time? 11 A: -- in the Park. 12 Q: Did you hear -- prior to the cruiser 13 hitting the table, did you hear any police officer 14 communicate anything to your group? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Now, you told us about seeing Dudley 17 George laying on the ground -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- after he had been shot? Did you 20 see how he came to be lying on the ground? 21 A: He was laying on his back. 22 Q: Did you see him fall? 23 A: No. When I was -- after all the 24 shots were going on and that, I was crouched down running 25 to hide behind the dumpster. And then when I turned
561 around, he was pretty much on his knees, and that was the 2 last time I seen him and then he was on the ground when I 3 come back out. 4 Q: Okay. So when you running to the 5 dumpster, you saw him fall to his knees? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then when you came back, he was 8 laying on his back? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And when you reached him, what was 11 his condition? 12 A: He was unconscious. 13 Q: And finally, Mr. George, when you saw 14 the police coming down East Parkway Drive that night, 15 what did you think they were coming to do? 16 A: My point of view, I think they were 17 coming down there to have us all killed and that's my 18 point of view. 19 Q: Is that what you thought at the time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Thank you very much for your 22 testimony. Those are all my questions today. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much. Mr. Sandler...? 25
571 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 2 MR. MARK SANDER: Yes, good afternoon, Mr. 3 George. My name is Mark Sandler and I act for the OPP 4 and I have some questions for you as well, if I may. 5 When you and others occupied part of the 6 army camp in May of 1993, you felt that the land belonged 7 to you and your Peoples, is that right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So you felt that the occupation was 10 justified? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the OPP made no attempt to 13 physically remove you or the others from the occupied 14 premises at that time -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- am I right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And when you and others occupied the 19 built-up portion of the Army Camp Base in July of 1995, 20 again you felt that the land belonged to you and to your 21 Peoples, am I right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And again you felt the occupation was 24 justified? 25 A: Yes.
581 Q: And -- and it's also true that the 2 OPP made no attempt to physically remove you or the 3 others from the occupied premises at that time? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. I'm right about that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And when you and others occupied the 8 fenced-in boundaries of the Provincial Park in September 9 of 1995, once again you felt that the land belonged to 10 you and your Peoples, am I right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the occupation was justified 13 regardless of what others might say about who had legal 14 title to the property, am I right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And again on Monday, September 17 the 4th, 1995, which was the first day of the occupation 18 and September the 5th of 1995, the second day of the 19 occupation, the OPP made no attempt to physically remove 20 you or the others from the Park, am I right so far? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. Now on the contrary, instead 23 of the OPP moving into the Park and attempting to 24 physically remove you or the others, we've heard that on 25 September the 4th of 1995, and that's the Monday, that
591 there was a confrontation before Judas or Roderick George 2 other occupiers and OPP officers. All right? We've -- 3 we've heard that in the evidence here. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And we've heard that that took 6 place in the evening of September the 4th of 1995, okay? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Now, were you present for that 9 confrontation? 10 A: No, I wasn't. 11 Q: All right. Now, surely within the 12 Park or within the Army Camp, occupiers spoke about the 13 fact that there had been this confrontation between Judas 14 and the police officers that night. 15 There was some talk about it, wasn't 16 there? 17 A: I don't remember. 18 Q: Well what I'm going to suggest to you 19 is that within the Park or within the Army Camp, there 20 was some discussion about the fact that -- that Judas 21 George had confronted the OPP officers and basically 22 ordered them out of the Park and smashed the police car 23 window and some flares had been thrown to the officers 24 and the officers retreated rather than remain within the 25 Park.
601 I mean, you knew that generally from 2 speaking to the others within the Park or the Army Camp, 3 did you not? 4 A: Yes, I heard it from the others, but 5 I didn't see it, myself. 6 Q: Fair enough. All right. So you had 7 heard -- you had heard that those events had occurred, 8 though you had not personally witnessed them, right? 9 A: No, I didn't witness it. 10 Q: And you had heard that from -- from 11 others within the Army Camp, you didn't hear that from 12 OPP Officers, right? 13 A: No, I heard it from my own people. 14 Q: And, because the land belonged to you 15 and your Peoples, including the Park, did you regard what 16 you had heard about Judas George's conduct as justified? 17 A: No. 18 Q: You didn't? And what was it that you 19 regarded as unjustified about what you'd heard he had 20 done? What was wrong with it? 21 A: I don't know. I wasn't up -- up 22 there to see that part. 23 Q: No, I understand that. But -- but 24 what you've told the Commissioner is that you heard about 25 it --
611 A: Yes, I heard about it. 2 Q: -- and -- and you didn't think that 3 that kind of conduct was justified, and I guess I'm 4 wondering why not? 5 A: Well, they had their chance for the 6 land but they lost it. 7 Q: Oh, so maybe we've misunderstood what 8 you said. I'm really asking about Judas George's 9 conduct. 10 Did you think it was justified when you 11 heard that -- that the way Judas George had caused the 12 officers to leave the Park, was not only to demand that 13 they leave, but to take a stick and -- and smash the 14 police cruiser window? 15 A: Well, I wouldn't know that. 16 Q: Pardon me? 17 A: I wouldn't know that. 18 Q: You wouldn't? There was no 19 discussion about that at all? 20 A: No. I didn't hear -- hear or see it. 21 Q: I know you didn't see it. You didn't 22 even hear about it that evening; is that what you're 23 saying? 24 A: No, not until I was up further, into 25 the Park where the store is.
621 Q: Okay. Well, when you heard about it, 2 whether it was the same day or the next day, that Judas 3 George had done that, did you regard what Judas George 4 had done as being justified? 5 A: Hmm hmm. I wouldn't know how -- how 6 his reactions or feelings was when he was doing that. 7 Q: Well, I guess what I'm asking about 8 is this, that -- did you feel -- and I'm just interested, 9 because one of the things that the Commissioner has to do 10 at the end of this piece, is to make recommendations how 11 to prevent these things from occurring in the future. 12 You understand that, right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So, one of the things that I'm 15 exploring are the attitudes of the various people that -- 16 that are involved, because one has to understand all of 17 that, I suggest, to figure out how to prevent it in the 18 future. 19 So I guess I'm asking you is: Assume that 20 Judas George used a little of verbal intimidation and 21 some physical intimidation, including breaking a police 22 cruiser window in order to make the point that the OPP 23 should leave, was there any discussion within the 24 occupying -- within the occupiers, in the days that 25 followed, that said --
631 A: No. 2 Q: -- that said that's not consistent 3 with a peaceful occupation of the Park? Like, did 4 anybody have any harsh words about what Judas George had 5 purportedly done? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No. I mean, what I'm going to 8 suggest to you is that, unfortunately, that was regarded 9 as perfectly justified, what Judas George had done within 10 the Park? 11 A: Well, I can see it from his point of 12 view, to tell them to get off our land, they had so much 13 -- so many seconds to do it. 14 Q: And if not, you break a police car 15 window to make your point; right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: So as far as you were concerned, you 18 could see the justification for that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And as far as you were 21 concerned, that remained consistent with a peaceful 22 occupation of the Park? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Now, you surely understood 25 back on September the 4th and September the 5th of 1995,
641 that there were others in the community that didn't agree 2 that the occupation of the Park was justified; right? 3 A: In the community, like, how do you 4 mean by that? 5 Q: Well, first of all, you were aware 6 that -- that there were aspects of the First Nations 7 Community -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- that didn't agree with the 10 occupation of the Park; right? 11 A: That's their point of view. 12 Q: No, I understand. And I'm just 13 exploring what -- what you knew and what you understood. 14 Your point of view is perfectly clear and -- and I'm not 15 suggesting that that represents your point of view, okay? 16 But you knew that there were people within 17 the First Nations community that disagreed with the 18 occupation of the Park, right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you also knew, you didn't have to 21 be told by the Government walking up to you, that the 22 Government disagreed with the occupation of the Park, 23 right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: I mean, that was common knowledge
651 amongst the occupiers that the Government took a very 2 different position as to whether you were justified to 3 occupy the Park, am I right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. Now, we've heard some evidence 6 that on September the 4th, late in the evening, officer 7 Vince George and others attempted to serve some papers on 8 you. 9 A: Yes, to me and my brother. 10 Q: To you and your brother. And -- as I 11 understand it, what happens is that you arrive by -- by 12 car with your brother in the vicinity of the gate. Do I 13 have that right so far? 14 A: Yes, the Park entrance gate. 15 Q: The gate or Park entrance and the OPP 16 officer, Vince George, attempted to -- to talk to you but 17 you remained in your vehicles, is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And -- and he then decided to 20 approach your vehicle with papers in hand. Am I right so 21 far? 22 A: Yes, he just come up as far as the 23 gate. 24 Q: Okay. And then you reversed the 25 vehicle, revving up and backing away and told your
661 brother that you, "didn't want to take the fucking paper" 2 from him -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- do I have that right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Now, first of all, how did you 7 know to go to the main gate at that point in time? 8 A: Well I just let them people know -- 9 our people know -- our people other there that they were 10 trying to hand -- hand me and my brother a piece of 11 paper. 12 Q: But I'm just saying -- 13 A: We were -- we didn't know what the 14 piece of paper was for. 15 Q: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt 16 you. But here there's an officer and I suggest there 17 were other people with the officer, including Mr. 18 Kobayashi from the Ministry of Natural Resources. 19 Do you remember that as well? 20 A: Yes I -- 21 Q: That -- 22 A: -- remember him standing there beside 23 him. I don't know who he is. 24 Q: Very good. 25 A: I just know him to see him.
671 Q: And -- but what happened, as I 2 understand it is that -- that you arrive in the very same 3 area where Vince George and Mr. Kobayashi have shown up. 4 And I'm just wondering how did you know that they were 5 there? 6 A: We didn't. We just went there. 7 Q: You just happened to be there at the 8 same time that they were there? 9 A: Yes, 'cause there was nobody else 10 there at that gate to man it. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Had to be security there. 13 Q: I mean had anybody communicated with 14 you that -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- here a police officer was at the 17 gate with Mr. Kobayashi or with another man? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No. Okay. Well, so here you are and 20 what I'm going to suggest to you is that what was clear 21 to you is that what he was serving you with, or 22 attempting to serve you with were some papers challenging 23 your continuing occupation of the Park. 24 I mean that much was obvious to you, 25 wasn't it?
681 A: Well I didn't know at the -- at the 2 time what it was for. 3 Q: Well I understand that you never gave 4 him an opportunity -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- to talk about it. But it was 7 pretty obvious to you, kind of putting together two (2) 8 and two (2) that that's what was going on, right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Right, okay. And you made a decision 11 that you didn't want to have these papers served on you, 12 right? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: Okay, fair enough. Now, so that even 15 if Vince George didn't stand right beside you and say, We 16 take the position that you're trespassing, I mean you 17 knew that's what it was all about, that -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- they were taking the position that 20 you were trespassing and you were taking the position 21 that it was a lawful occupation, right? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Fair enough. Now, we've heard some 24 evidence and I expect that more will come that -- that 25 once the Park was occupied, that trees were cut down and
691 barricades were erected within the Park. Do I have that 2 right so far? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. And we've heard that 5 buildings within the Park were taken over, right? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And -- and we've heard that some 8 picnic tables were -- were burned as -- as firewood. 9 Isn't that so? 10 A: Some of them were, yeah. 11 Q: Some were? And -- and all of those 12 things happened, of course, before the shooting of Dudley 13 George, am I right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And all of those things happened 16 before the confrontation with the police that you've 17 described on the evening of September the 6th, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And -- and I just want to understand 20 this a little bit. Did you feel that because it was your 21 position that the Park belonged to you and your Peoples 22 that -- that you could do anything within the Park? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Anything? 25 A: Yeah, 'cause it was our land.
701 Q: All right, okay. I understand that. 2 Now, we've heard that some of the occupiers or Stoney 3 Pointers set up picnic tables in the sandy park lot area 4 that was later the scene of part of this confrontation 5 with the police, and you've told us a little bit about 6 that, right? 7 A: Yes, a little bit. 8 Q: Okay. Now, to be clear, these picnic 9 tables were being set up in an area that was outside of 10 the fenced-in Provincial Park, right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And on the evening of 13 September the 5th, you've told the Commissioner earlier 14 on, that you participated in lifting and carrying a 15 number of picnic tables from inside the Provincial Park 16 to the sandy parking lot area. 17 Do I have that right so far? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And -- and I'm going to 20 suggest to you that ultimately there were more than a 21 dozen picnic tables that were carried from inside the 22 fenced-in Park to the parking lot area. Am I right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes. And I'm also going to suggest 25 that -- that a fire or fires were set in the area where
711 the picnic tables were; right? 2 A: From what I could remember, yeah. 3 Q: Yes. Okay. And -- and what you've 4 described to the Commissioner early -- earlier on, is 5 that -- that one (1) police cruiser pushed a picnic table 6 slowly back towards the fence. 7 Do I have that right? 8 A: Yes, I seen that. 9 Q: Okay, you saw that. Now I have some 10 difficulty understanding what you said the other day and 11 perhaps it's my shortcoming, so what I want to do is take 12 you back to some of the answers that you gave the other 13 day to Commission counsel and just ask you to help me 14 understand them a little bit, okay? 15 And I'm going back to November the 4th, at 16 -- at page 230 of the transcript. And I'll -- I don't if 17 you have the transcript there or not but I'll read you 18 the portion that I'm interested in, if that helps out. 19 Okay? You don't have it, all right. 20 This is the testimony that you gave the 21 last time we were here, okay? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And -- and a transcript was made of 24 your evidence and I have the benefit of the transcript, 25 okay? So that's the document that I'm talking about, all
721 right? You with me so far? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay, good. And here's what you said 4 at page 230 of the transcript and this is at line 4. 5 "All right. And go on and tell us what 6 happened? 7 A: I just seen one cruiser pushing 8 the picnic tables slow when we were 9 bringing the picnic tables to the 10 fence -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- to bring them over the fence. 13 Q: Right? And when you say a cruiser 14 I must -- going to assume --" 15 And then you say: 16 "Cop car 17 Q: That's a police cruiser. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And he's pushing the picnic table 20 with the car? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And where's he pushing the table 23 to? 24 A: Back towards the fence, towards 25 where the Park is.
731 Q: All right. All right. Go ahead, 2 what happens? 3 A: I don't know. Everything was just 4 going too fast that night with the 5 picnic tables. 6 Q: So what did you do about this? 7 A: I was inside the Park helping -- 8 bringing -- carrying the picnic tables 9 over. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: Didn't see too much of what was 12 going on outside the fence there. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But I noticed one cop car was 15 pushing the picnic tables. 16 Q: Were there other cop cars, to use 17 your language, in the area? 18 A: No, I just noticed the one. 19 Q: Go ahead, what happens? 20 A: I don't know what he done after 21 that. He just backed up and I don't 22 know where he went after that. 23 Q: Okay. What did you do? 24 A: Just kept bringing picnic tables 25 over.
741 Q: Do you recall whether there were 2 any rocks thrown or any such thing? 3 A: No. 4 Q: You don't recall or there weren't? 5 A: I don't know. 6 Q: All right. Did you throw any 7 rocks? 8 A: At the police? 9 Q: Yeah. Yeah. Well that's what I'm 10 asking. 11 A: Not at the cop cars. 12 Q: Okay, you're going to have to -- 13 A: Well, what I meant -- what I 14 thought you meant -- throwing stones at 15 the cop cars." 16 Now, just stopping there for a moment. 17 Here's what I don't understand. First of all did you 18 throw rocks at the -- at the police when they arrived to 19 remove the picnic table? 20 A: Not at the cruisers. At the police 21 themselves. 22 Q: At the police themselves. So are you 23 saying the police got out of the cruiser or remained 24 inside the cruiser? 25 A: No. That's when they were all coming
751 up -- running up to the fence. 2 Q: Well was this during the picnic 3 incident, picnic table incident? 4 A: After that. 5 Q: Oh, this is after that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: So -- so let me see if I -- if I 8 understand what was going on. Here you are bringing 9 picnic tables from inside the Park to the sandy parking 10 lot area outside of the fenced in Park. 11 Are you with me so far? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you agree with that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And we've heard that -- that 16 assembled were at least a dozen picnic tables out in the 17 sandy parking lot area. And the question I have for you 18 is that: 19 Here the police come and apparently one 20 (1) of the cruiser, to use your evidence, slowly pushes 21 one of the picnic tables back in the direction of the 22 fence, correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Well, how was that responded to by 25 the people who were bringing the picnic tables out into
761 the sandy parking lot? 2 A: That was the -- like a barricade with 3 the picnic tables. 4 Q: Right. I mean, the idea was that 5 you're out in the sandy parking lot for a couple of 6 reasons; weren't you? The first reason is that as far as 7 you were concerned, that sandy parking lot belonged to 8 you and your Peoples and you were perfectly entitled to 9 occupy it; right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that was one (1) of the points 12 that was being made by being out there, that, we are 13 occupying the sandy parking lot, not just the interior of 14 the Park; right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Right. And the other point that was 17 being made is that if you barricaded the sandy parking 18 lot, then that would prevent non-occupiers from using 19 that area to gain access to the Park. 20 That was the other reason for doing it; 21 right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yes, of course. And the other reason 24 that I'm going to suggest that you brought out all of 25 these picnic tables and created a barricade in the sandy
771 parking lot area was because you and the others who were 2 occupying could then have some ability to control the 3 access along Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive. 4 Am I right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Right. Well, you also felt that -- 7 that the cottages that were immediately beside the sandy 8 parking lot area -- you know which cottages I mean, of 9 course? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: Right. And these are along Lake 12 Huron and they move -- and they -- and they're in a 13 westerly direction from -- from the -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- sandy parking lot; right? Well, 16 you and the others -- and we've heard this from -- from 17 previous witnesses -- also felt that that property 18 rightfully belonged to you and your Peoples; am I right? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: Okay. So, in theory, you and the 21 others could have continued on into the cottages; right? 22 A: Yes, but we -- 23 Q: Taken them over as well? 24 A: -- yes, but we didn't though. 25 Q: No, you didn't. I understand. But
781 how did you communicate to the OPP or the cottagers or 2 others in the area that this wasn't going to stop at the 3 sandy parking lot area? 4 You didn't really communicate that at all; 5 did you? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No. So -- 8 A: Because we had nothing to say to the 9 cops. 10 Q: Right. And one (1) of the things 11 that the Commissioner is going to have to address is 12 communication and the breakdown of communication. But 13 the -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- the point that I'm really making 16 now is that, first, you took the Army Camp, then you took 17 the Park, then you took the sandy parking lot area to 18 restrict access along the -- the public street, to 19 restrict access to the parking lot. 20 There would be no way for someone to know 21 that you weren't going to be going to the cottages next 22 because you never communicated that to anybody; am I 23 right so far? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay, fair enough. Excuse me for a
791 moment. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now, when the police officer in this 6 one (1) cruiser pushed one (1) of the picnic tables 7 slowly towards the fence, did all of the occupiers go 8 back behind the fence at that point in time, or do you 9 recall? 10 A: No, I don't recall. 11 Q: You don't recall one way -- 12 A: No. 13 Q: -- or the other. But one (1) thing 14 is clear and that is that there was a feeling of being 15 safe while inside the fenced Park; right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And -- and that was obvious to 18 you, that -- that you had some safety while you remained 19 within the fenced Park; right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And -- and the reason, one (1) of the 22 reasons why you felt that there was some safety within 23 the confines of the fenced Provincial Park was that you 24 knew from the history of the dealings with the OPP that 25 when it came to the Park and the Camp itself, they'd
801 never press the point, they'd retreated; right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Now, we've heard -- and I 4 expect that there'll be more evidence, that at various 5 times during the occupation, and -- and this is before 6 Dudley George was shot, there had been efforts made by 7 the occupiers to accumulate sticks and bats and rocks and 8 stones and perhaps metal pipes and bricks to have access 9 to. 10 Did you know about that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yes. And -- and did you participate 13 in that as well? The collection of these -- of these 14 weapons before the confrontation with the police? 15 A: Not me. I was -- I was just using 16 stones. 17 Q: All right. But whatever you were 18 using, you were aware that -- that people within the Park 19 were collecting these items. Some of them were coming 20 out -- 21 A: Some of them already had them, 22 though. 23 Q: Some of them already had them, fair 24 enough. And then others were collecting them from 25 various sources within the Army camp and bringing them to
811 the area of the Park, right? 2 A: Well, basically yeah. I didn't see 3 anybody -- 'cause there was sticks and stuff around the 4 Park, too, for clubs. 5 Q: All right, so they didn't just bring 6 them from the Army camp -- 7 A: No. 8 Q: -- they also got them from the Park 9 is what you're saying? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Right, fair enough. Thank you for 12 correcting me. So -- so these were all being collected 13 and I expect that there's going to be some evidence that 14 people actually saw cars being driven from the Army camp 15 area to the Park and the occupiers would open up the 16 trunks of the cars and remove items like this and -- and 17 stockpile them within the Park prior to the confrontation 18 with the police. 19 And you were aware of that as well, 20 weren't you? 21 A: Well, yes. I didn't see it, though. 22 Q: But you were told that that was 23 occurring, weren't you? Within the park. I mean, it was 24 something that the occupiers were talking about, they 25 were going to bring these items and were going to
821 stockpile them within the Park, right? 2 A: I don't recall that -- that being -- 3 anybody talking about that. 4 Q: You don't? Were you aware that that 5 was going on, though? 6 A: No. 7 Q: You weren't? But you were aware that 8 items were being collected within -- within the -- 9 A: Yeah, just around -- 10 Q: -- Park? 11 A: -- within the Park area. 12 Q: Okay, fair enough. Now, excuse me 13 for a moment. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: When those stones or rocks or bats or 18 bricks or metal pipes, whatever, were being collected 19 within the Park, were any steps taken, to your knowledge, 20 to let the police or the people outside of the Park know 21 that they were only going to be used for dispensive 22 purposes if the police actually entered the Park? 23 Was that ever communicated to anybody to 24 your knowledge? 25 A: No.
831 Q: No? Now, we've heard a number of 2 witnesses testify that it was decided that there would be 3 no firearms or alcohol within the Park. Is your 4 recollection the same as that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And how and when was that decided? 7 A: Way before that. Even before we 8 talked about taking over in the Park, that there was 9 going to be no drinking or nothing. 10 Q: Now was this -- 11 A: And no weapons. 12 Q: I'm sorry. What -- by weapons you're 13 talking about firearms -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You're not talking about sticks and-- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- bricks and rocks? Because we know 18 there were -- 19 A: Oh no. 20 Q: -- lots of those. 21 A: Yes, talking about firearms. 22 Q: Firearms. So you're saying that 23 before the Park was actually occupied, a decision was 24 made that there'd be no firearms and no alcohol within 25 the Park. Do --
841 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- I have that right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Do you know when that decision was 5 made? 6 A: It's been -- talking that the whole 7 summer. 8 Q: The whole summer? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, that was different than the 11 occupation of the Army camp, wasn't it, because -- 12 because we know that there were at least firearms at the 13 Army camp for hunting purposes, weren't there? 14 A: For hunting, yes. 15 Q: Yes. And we know that alcohol was 16 consumed within the Army camp, right? 17 A: Well, I wouldn't know. 18 Q: You wouldn't know? You never saw 19 that at the Army camp that alcohol -- 20 A: Not in the Park. 21 Q: Pardon me? 22 A: Not in the Park. 23 Q: I'm not talking about the Park. I'm 24 just talking about the Army camp now. 25 A: Well, maybe days before.
851 Q: Well, I guess I'm asking you this 2 question. That -- that when you occupied the Army camp, 3 forget about the Park, when you occupied the Army camp in 4 1993, and then the built up area in 1995, there wasn't a 5 decision made before those things occurred, no firearms 6 in the Army camp, no alcohol in the Army camp. 7 That -- there was no decision about -- 8 A: No, because everything was all 9 peaceful and it -- peaceful takeover. 10 Q: Well, were you there when the actual 11 takeover the built-up area took place? 12 A: Not until later. 13 Q: Not until later. Okay. Now, I'm 14 going to ask you a little bit about -- about hunting and 15 I'm not a hunter so -- so if I sound ignorant, you -- you 16 correct me. 17 We've heard from a number of witnesses 18 that -- that hunting with guns was taking place after the 19 Army Camp was occupied, and you were aware of that; 20 right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And we heard about a sawed-off 23 shotgun that was purchased on the Base, but we were told 24 it was for hunting purposes only. 25 Were you aware that there was a sawed-off
861 shotgun on the Army Camp, for example? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yes, and whose was it? 4 A: My brother, Dave's. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: He used -- just used it for hunting. 7 Q: Just used it for hunting. And it's 8 -- and it's usual to use a sawed-off shotgun for hunting, 9 is it? 10 A: Yeah. For shooting geese. 11 Q: Okay. And, so you were aware that 12 there were guns being kept at the Army Camp, right? 13 A: I wouldn't say guns. I've never seen 14 any guns in any other buil -- trailers. 15 Q: Well, if you put two and two 16 together, if people are hunting with guns at the Army 17 Camp Base, and they live at the Army Camp Base, -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- isn't it fair to say that people 20 were keeping their guns at the Army Camp Base? 21 A: Just for hunting. 22 Q: Okay. Well, I'll go with that. Just 23 for hunting, you say. But -- but surely everybody knew 24 who was living on the Army Camp Base, that the guns were 25 being kept at the Army Camp Base for hunting; that's all
871 I'm really asking you? 2 A: Yes, for hunting purposes. 3 Q: Yes. Fair enough. Now, and I gather 4 that you did a little hunting yourself, not as much as 5 the others, but -- but some; am I right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And -- and I gather, and 8 you correct me if I'm wrong, but the fall is the best 9 time for -- for deer hunting, isn't it? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: So, in September of 1995 and, again, 12 understanding your position as to why there were firearms 13 on the Camp, we know that there were guns that were on 14 the Army Camp Base for hunting purposes; right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yes. Now, back in September the 4th, 17 the 5th, the 6th, of 1995, before the confrontation with 18 the police, what steps did you take for the other 19 occupiers within the Park, to tell the police that any 20 guns that were within the Army Camp were not going to be 21 used in any confrontation with them? 22 Was that ever communicated to anybody? 23 A: Like within our own people? 24 Q: No, I'm saying communicated to the 25 police, for example?
881 A: No. 2 Q: No. Now, we've heard evidence that 3 one of the things that at least some of the occupiers 4 were doing, before Dudley George was shot, was to drive 5 back and forth repeatedly, from the Camp to the Park, or 6 the Park to the Camp, to leave the impression with the 7 outsiders, that there were more occupiers than there 8 really were. 9 Do you remember that? 10 A: What do you mean than more occupiers? 11 Q: In other words, we've been told that 12 -- that one of the things that was suggested by at least 13 one (1) of the occupiers, was, let's drive back and forth 14 between the Camp and the Park a lot, so -- 15 A: Well, everybody was just driving back 16 and forth. 17 Q: Right. But one of the reasons it was 18 being done is to make it look to the police like you had 19 more people inside than you really did? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yes. And, I expect that we're going 22 to hear some evidence that -- that some of the occupiers, 23 and I'm not suggesting you, but some of the occupiers 24 were also saying things to the police officers that left 25 the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the occupiers
891 were armed, and that guns were trained on the officers? 2 A: No, I didn't hear nothing about that. 3 Q: You didn't hear nothing about it -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: Was there any discussion amongst the 6 occupiers that, you know I, -- 7 A: I wouldn't know. 8 Q: -- I told the police that they've got 9 -- that there's a whole bunch of cross hairs that are 10 focussed on them? No? 11 A: I didn't hear anything about that. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Like that. 14 Q: All right. You weren't present in 15 any event, -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- if any such discussions took 18 place? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. Now, there's been some 21 evidence about a dump truck moving back and forth from 22 the Camp to the Park; do you remember the dump truck? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Why was it moving back and forth from 25 the Camp to the Park, just before the confrontation took
901 place? 2 A: Just doing security. 3 Q: Security was being done in -- in the 4 dump truck? 5 A: Yes, that was his only -- his only 6 wheels that he had down there. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: For that night. 9 Q: All right. Now, I expect that 10 there's going to be some evidence that during the night 11 of September the 5th, so that's the Tuesday, all right, 12 that there were multiple rounds of automatic gunfire that 13 had been heard from the Park. Did you hear that? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Were you aware from others that that 16 had occurred? 17 A: No. 18 Q: You answered My Friend here, that's 19 what we call other counsel My Friend, and we -- we even 20 mean it sometimes, that there was -- that you were 21 familiar with automatic gunfire? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: How are you familiar with automatic 24 gunfire? 25 A: I think it was because -- with my
911 dad. My mom's first husband, that's how I know. 2 Q: Perhaps you could explain that? 3 A: Because he's -- he's used the 4 automatic weapons. 5 Q: He's used automatic weapons as a 6 hunter or? 7 A: No. Well, he was in the army -- my 8 mom's first husband. 9 Q: While he was in the army? Okay. So 10 you've acquired a familiarity with -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- with automatic gunfire? And -- 13 and is it your evidence that -- that there was no 14 automatic gunfire that was heard within the Park on the 15 evening of September the 5th? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Now we've also heard some 18 evidence that women and children, not every one of them, 19 but some were being evacuated from the Park on September 20 the 6th. 21 Were you aware of that? 22 A: Earlier yes. 23 Q: Earlier? That's earlier in the 24 evening of September the 6th, is that right? 25 A: Yes.
921 Q: Okay. Now, I'm going to ask you 2 about the events on the evening of September the 6th. So 3 that's the Wednesday, September the 6th, the day of the 4 confrontation, all right? 5 And again I expect that there's going to 6 be some evidence that at about 7:30 that evening, a group 7 of occupiers were standing at the intersection of Army 8 Camp Road and East Parkway Drive and four (4) or five (5) 9 had what appeared to be axe handles in their hands or 10 sticks and bats. 11 And -- and an individual was told to get 12 out of the area, this wasn't his fight. First of all, 13 were you one of those occupiers? 14 A: Out on the road? 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You were. And what did you have in 18 your hands? 19 A: Just a stick. 20 Q: And -- and the reason for being out 21 on the road at the intersection of Army Camp Road and 22 East Parkway Drive on the September the 6th was what? 23 A: Just to see how far they were coming 24 down the road. 25 Q: Well but they weren't coming down the
931 road at that point in time. This -- that's two (2) hours 2 or more before they came down the road, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yes. So I mean one of the things 5 that -- that you were doing and being out on the road, is 6 you were kind of asserting your ownership interest in 7 this area. 8 This is our land, we'll go here if we 9 want, we'll be armed with these items that we want 10 because we're entitled to, right? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: Okay, fair enough. Now we've heard 13 that shortly after that, that there was a -- a 14 confrontation between Gerald George and do you know 15 Gerald George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And -- and some occupiers who 18 were again outside of the fenced-in perimeter of the 19 Park. And were you present when that altercation took 20 place? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No. We've heard some evidence that 23 he was slapped or punched while he was in his car; that 24 his car was hit with a stone or a rock. 25 Was that discussed within -- within the
941 Park? 2 A: No. Not that I -- 3 Q: That that altercation had taken 4 place? 5 A: Not that I heard of. 6 Q: All right. Now I'm going to ask you 7 a little about this helicopter incident back in August of 8 1993. And back in August of 1993, I'm taking your mind 9 back a long ways now I know. 10 There were relatively a small number of 11 individuals that were occupying the army camp at that 12 time, right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And -- and there were some 15 confrontations between -- between the occupiers and the 16 military during that period, weren't there? 17 A: Not that I could remember -- 18 Q: Not -- 19 A: -- from the other ones that were 20 living further down. 21 Q: All right. So you don't remember any 22 confrontations? 23 A: Not with them. 24 Q: Okay. When you say there were other 25 ones with the people living further down, I'm sorry, I
951 don't understand what you're saying. 2 A: Well they were living all along -- 3 along 21 there. 4 Q: Right. When you say "they" who are 5 you referring to? 6 A: The other people that had trailers 7 and stuff down there too. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: The other occupiers. 10 Q: Well, were you hearing about 11 confrontations that they were having -- 12 A: No. 13 Q: -- with the military? You weren't? 14 Okay. And -- and then we heard about this incident where 15 the helicopter is -- is shot at. 16 And surely in this small group of 17 occupiers there was a discussion about who had shot the 18 helicopter? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yes. I mean, to be -- to be frank, 21 and I'm not going to ask you to name, but to be frank, 22 everybody within the camp knew who had shot the 23 helicopter, didn't they? 24 A: No. 25 Q: They knew that one of the occupiers
961 had shot the helicopter, didn't they? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Well, let me understand this, so your 4 evidence is that you've got this small group of occupiers 5 in the area, that you actually hear the helicopter shot 6 at, you hear that the shot is close to you. 7 Am I right so far? 8 A: From behind the bush area. 9 Q: From the bush area. And your 10 evidence is that -- that -- 11 A: Just said from behind me. That's 12 what I -- I meant -- I meant was the bush. 13 Q: The bush. But within the Army camp? 14 A: For all they -- for all we know, it 15 could have been the Army themselves that done that. 16 A: Oh, so the Army may have shot at its 17 own helicopter? Is that really what the occupiers 18 thought within the camp? 19 A: I don't know. I -- that's just my -- 20 my point of view. 21 Q: Well, I'm interested in your point of 22 view. Was it your point of view back in August of 1993 23 that the Army had shot at its own helicopter? 24 A: I didn't know if that -- that at the 25 time.
971 Q: I mean -- 2 A: That's what I would -- would think. 3 q: That's what you'd think. Well, I'm 4 going to suggest to you, to be candid, that -- that 5 everybody who was occupying that area at that time knew 6 that one of the occupiers had shot at the helicopter and 7 no-one wanted to tell the police that that was so. 8 Isn't that true? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Well, tell me, if you had known that 11 an occupier had shot the helicopter, would you have told 12 the police. 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Excuse me one (1) 14 moment please. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead. 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Any answer to that 17 question would be highly speculative. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: If he had known. He 20 has given his evidence. He says he was there, he heard a 21 shot -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- some place in the 24 bush, not necessarily one of the occupiers -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we've
981 had some hypotheticals, but I don't think you need that 2 one, Mr. Sandler. Do you -- 3 MR. MARK SANDLER: That's fine. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- want to 5 press that? 6 MR. MARK SANDLER: That's fine. I'll -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 8 think you need it. 9 MR. MARK SANDLER: It's a subject of 10 argument. I -- I'm fine with that. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 13 Q: Was there anybody within the Camp, 14 leave aside who shot the helicopter, who said, you know, 15 shooting a helicopter, no matter how much it's harassing 16 us, is inappropriate conduct? Anybody say that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No. Did anyone welcome the fact that 19 a helicopter had been shot? 20 A: Not that I know of. 21 Q: Not that you know of. Now, we've 22 heard that the next day the -- the police arrived to 23 search the area where you and others were living. And to 24 be fair, you were asked a question earlier on about were 25 you shown a piece of paper or a warrant, okay? Do you
991 remember that? 2 You remember you were asked that question 3 this morning and you said, No, I didn't see a piece of 4 paper. 5 A: Of '93? 6 Q: In '93. 7 A: No. 8 Q: Yeah. Well, I'm going to suggest to 9 you that the police brought a warrant -- 10 A: No, down the Park I know -- know that 11 about the piece of paper part. 12 Q: No, no. I'm talking about when the 13 police came to search the day after the helicopter 14 shooting, you were asked the question, were you given a 15 piece of paper or a warrant from the police -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: No. You weren't -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- but I'm going to suggest to you 20 that one (1) of the occupiers who was in charge was shown 21 the warrant. 22 A: I wouldn't know 'cause I wasn't down 23 that area. 24 Q: Of course. Fair enough. And what 25 I'm going to suggest is that -- that you and other others
1001 fully expected that the place would be searched after 2 this incident with the helicopter the day before. I 3 mean, you knew it was coming, didn't you? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Yes. Well the question I have for 6 you is this, let's accept everything that you've said 7 that -- that there's guns that are being kept at the Army 8 camp for hunting purposes only. We've heard evidence 9 that when the police actually come to the camp to search, 10 they don't find any guns. 11 So, can you help the Commissioner out, 12 where they went? 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Again I rise -- 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: What could be wrong 15 with that? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's your 17 objection, Mr. Ross? 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Again I -- I rise for 19 the simple reason that this is in 1993. The witness said 20 that the guns for hunting, as prompted by Learned 21 Counsel, was in the fall. This is ahead of that. 22 I mean he's got to establish that between 23 the time of moving on to the Camp in May of 1993 and 24 August that there were guns there. There's no evidence 25 of that at this point.
1011 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: That's my point. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. It's 4 a question of timing. 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: All right. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 7 established that there were guns there in the fall, this 8 is just before that. 9 MR. MARK SANDLER: All right. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 12 Q: Well, in the fall of 1993, there were 13 guns for hunting purposes within the Army Camp; correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes, of course. And what I'm asking 16 you is: Where did the guns go when the police searched 17 the premises? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. You 19 didn't get the objection, Mr. Sandler. The objection is 20 that you haven't established that there are any guns 21 there at the time of the helicopter incident. 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: Well, I just asked him 23 and he agreed. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. I -- 25 MR. MARK SANDLER: I just said August of
1021 1993. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I thought 3 you were asking him about the fall, and this is the 4 summer before the fall. 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: Oh, I'm sorry. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's just a 7 question of timing. And you have to establish that there 8 were -- 9 MR. MARK SANDLER: Fair enough. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: --- guns 11 there. 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: I said the fall, I 13 should have said August. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 17 Q: In August 1993, there were guns for 18 hunting purposes at the Army Camp; correct? 19 A: Yes, from what my brother had. 20 Q: Yes, of course. And -- and do you 21 know what happened to the guns when the -- when the 22 police searched -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: -- the camp? You don't? But was 25 there any effort to talk about removing any guns that
1031 were at the Army Camp when -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- the police arrived? All right. 4 Now, you were asked some questions about - 5 - about Cecil George. And, as I understand it, you 6 didn't see Cecil Bernard George get arrested; am I right? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: You told Mr. Worme that everything 9 happened so quickly; right? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: And the other reason that you didn't 12 see Cecil Bernard George get arrested was that you did 13 not see the police come into contact with him because he 14 was out of the lights and it was dark; right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, a few more questions about the 17 actual confrontation. When the police rushed the fence, 18 there were occupiers outside of the fence; we know that, 19 right? 20 A: Just that first time when my uncle's 21 dog got kicked. 22 Q: Okay. So there were occupiers 23 outside of the fence. The police come up to the fence 24 and the police withdraw once you're all behind the fence; 25 am I right so far?
1041 A: Yes. 2 Q: And they never do come into the Park; 3 do they? 4 A: No. Not -- not past the Park fence. 5 Q: Fair enough. And the police officer 6 in charge tried to speak but he couldn't be heard because 7 of all the yelling; am I right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you couldn't make out what 10 anybody was saying? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And they didn't touch us -- or they 13 didn't touch you when you were behind the fence line; is 14 that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And when you started going over the 17 fence and throwing stones at them, they were backing up; 18 am I right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Thank you very much, sir. Those are 21 all my questions. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much. I think this is a good time to adjourn for 24 lunch. We're not going to get through with OPPA before 25 lunch. I think this a good time to adjourn for lunch,
1051 and start with the OPPA immediately after lunch. 2 Did you want to say something, Mr. Worme? 3 MR. DONALD WORME: No. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? Okay. 5 We break till what time? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ten to 2:00. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five to 8 2:00? Ten to 2:00? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ten to 2:00. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten to 2:00. 11 Thank you. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 13 adjourned until ten to 2:00. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 12:35 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 1:54 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed. Please be seated. 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 22 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. My name 23 is Ian McGilp. And I'm here to ask you some questions, 24 if I may, on behalf of the OPP Association. 25 Now, Mr. George, you mentioned to Mr.
1061 Worme last week that your parents at no point came onto 2 the land that you had occupied; do you remember that? 3 A: To live? 4 Q: No. Well -- 5 A: Oh. 6 Q: -- perhaps that -- I'm asking you 7 what you said and what you meant, I'm asking you to 8 clarify that. I understood you to say that the parents, 9 your parents, never came onto the land, meaning the Army 10 Camp. 11 Did they in fact come onto the land during 12 1993 or 1994, when -- or 1995, when you were occupying 13 that property? 14 A: Yes. They would just come down to 15 visit. 16 Q: They would come down to visit from -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- time to time. Were they 19 supporters of your initiatives there to occupy -- 20 A: Yes, they were. 21 Q: -- the land? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, Mr. George, you mentioned that 24 there was a meeting held prior to Labour Day of 1995, at 25 which you discussed the takeover of the Park.
1071 Do you recall that meeting? 2 A: The night before, yes. 3 Q: The night before. And I believe you 4 indicated that Russ Jewel and Les Jewel were there? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you remember that? And Russ Jewel 7 and Less Jewel are not Stoney Pointers originally, they 8 don't -- 9 A: No. 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Excuse me, sir -- 11 MR. IAN MCGILP: I'm sorry. 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I heard the year 1995 13 in the question, I heard 1994 in the response, and just 14 for clarification. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think -- 16 you did say '95 and he did say '94. We're talking about 17 -- 18 MR. IAN MCGILP: About his parents 19 visiting? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no. No, 21 no. When the meeting occurred. 22 MR. IAN MCGILP: Oh, the meeting 23 occurred. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 25
1081 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 2 Q: I'm sorry. It was the day before 3 Labour Day of 1995, the meeting; is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Yes. And I would like to ask you if 6 the following individuals were there; and you may or may 7 not -- you may or may not know. Robert Isaac, was he 8 there; do you remember? 9 A: I believe so. 10 Q: And Buck Doxtator? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And Dutch French? 13 A: Yes, he was there. 14 Q: And Gabriel Doxtator? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: He was there. And Darlene Fisher? 17 A: I wouldn't know. 18 Q: You're not sure? 19 A: No. 20 Q: What about Al George? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: He was there. And what about Sam 23 Isaac? 24 A: I can't remember. 25 Q: So you're not sure. What about Ed
1091 Isaac; do you remember? 2 A: No, he wasn't there that night. 3 Q: He wasn't there. And you've already 4 said that Les Jewel and Russ Jewel were there? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Would -- would you agree that all of 7 those individuals we've just mentioned, none of them are 8 original Stoney Pointers? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Now, you told Mr. Worme that there 11 were -- that there were roughly -- I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 12 I'm getting confused. Forgive me. 13 On the occasion on September 4th, you told 14 us about two (2) OPP officers attempting to serve you and 15 your brother David with a piece of paper; do you remember 16 that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: That was at the gate and they 19 attempted to serve you -- 20 A: At the Park entrance, yes. 21 Q: Yes. Yes. At the Park entrance. 22 And I wasn't -- originally you said last week that you 23 thought there was no one else with those two (2) 24 officers. 25 Do you remember that?
1101 A: When we were at the Park entrance, 2 there? 3 Q: Yes, at the Park entrance? 4 A: Yes. There was just them two (2). 5 Q: And -- and I -- I thought you said -- 6 A: The two (2) officers. 7 Q: Two (2) officers? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Once of whom was Vince George? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes. I thought you said this 12 morning, but I wasn't sure that I caught you correctly, 13 did you say that you recognized that Mr. Les Kobayashi, 14 the Park Superintendent, was also there at -- on that -- 15 on that occasion? 16 A: As far as I know, I wouldn't know who 17 -- who he looked like that day. 18 Q: You -- 19 A: Or who he was. 20 Q: -- you didn't know him -- 21 A: No. 22 Q: -- at that time? 23 A: No. 24 Q: But did you see another individual as 25 well as Vince George and the other OPP officer there?
1111 A: Just Vince George and that -- that 2 other -- other guy. 3 Q: You didn't -- 4 A: Mr. Kobayashi. 5 Q: -- see a third -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: -- individual who was not wearing -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- OPP? Thank you. Your brother, 10 David, was there with you, wasn't he, in the car? 11 A: Yes, he was the driver. 12 Q: Yes. And he -- when he gave evidence 13 he -- he testified that Mr. Kobayashi was there. 14 Does that assist your recollection at all 15 or is your recollection -- let me ask this, is your 16 recollection clear enough that you're quite certain Mr. 17 Kobayashi was not there, or is just possibly that since 18 you didn't know him, you didn't notice that he was there, 19 but since you didn't know him, you didn't notice him? 20 A: To see him? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Coming back to the first night you 24 were in the Park. Now we just went through a list of 25 people that I asked you who were not originally Stoney
1121 Pointers who were at that meeting prior to Labour Day. 2 Were all of the individuals that you 3 indicated were at the meeting, were they all in the Park 4 that first night? 5 A: I believe so. 6 Q: They were all there? And you 7 estimated for Mr. Worme that there were roughly a dozen 8 people in the Park that night in total. 9 A: Give or take, yes. 10 Q: Give or take. And doing a rough 11 count, I mean, about six (6) or seven (7) of those 12 individuals were people who were not originally for -- 13 from Stoney Point, would you agree with that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, when you were talking -- when 16 Mr. Worme was asking you questions, you told him that you 17 and other -- you had participated with others to secure 18 the Park and that you had been told to keep your eyes 19 open. Do you -- do you recall that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you also indicated, I believe, 22 that you had set up cans and fishing lines to warn if 23 there were any intruders coming through the bushes. Do 24 you -- 25 A: Yes, for our --
1131 Q: -- recall that? 2 A: For our own safety. 3 Q: For your own safety, yes. And you 4 mentioned this morning, I believe, that the dump truck 5 was driving back and forth doing security runs on 6 September the 6th, do you -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- recall that? How do you know the 9 truck was doing security? 10 A: Well, the only one that was driving 11 that dump truck was Glenn George. 12 Q: And -- but how do you know that Glenn 13 was in -- in the process of doing security as opposed 14 to -- 15 A: Because -- because I -- I seen him 16 coming from the Highway way down from -- coming from the 17 Highway way. 18 Q: From the built-up area down towards-- 19 A: Coming from the ranges. 20 Q: From the range -- 21 A: Over to the built-up area, yeah. 22 Q: Over to the built-up area? 23 A: Yes, that was after the shooting. 24 Q: That was after the shooting. 25 A: After we brought Dudley up to the
1141 built-up area. 2 Q: What about earlier in the day on 3 September the 6th? Was the dump truck doing security 4 earlier that day? 5 A: As far as I know, yeah. 6 Q: And had you seen the dump truck 7 driving up and down the road adjacent to Army Camp Road 8 earlier that day? 9 A: No. 10 Q: No. Did you see it driving down 11 Matheson Drive, down towards the beach checking -- down 12 in that area? 13 A: No. 14 Q: So where did you see the truck 15 driving that day that led you to believe it was doing 16 security runs earlier that day? 17 A: Basically up in the built-up area. 18 Q: In the built-up area? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: It was primarily doing security up 21 there rather than down -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- at the Park? Hmm hmm. Did -- I 24 take it people other than the -- I'm sorry, who was -- 25 who's -- who was driving the dump truck again?
1151 Was that -- 2 A: Glenn George. 3 Q: Glenn George. And I take it there 4 were people other than Glenn George that were driving 5 other vehicles around, generally keeping an eye on things 6 for security purposes? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: That's right. And were there 9 actually observation posts established where people would 10 -- where there was more or less always somebody there to 11 observe a particular perspective? 12 In other words, were there obs -- 13 particular observation posts organized? 14 A: On our side? 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: On our side? 17 Q: Yes, on your side, yes. 18 A: Yes, we had some people staying at 19 the Outer Drive entrance too. 20 Q: At the outer drive entrance -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- to the Army Camp. And there was 23 an observation post or more than one (1), I'm sorry? 24 A: Matheson Drive. 25 Q: Oh, at Matheson Drive.
1161 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay, so there was an observation 3 post at Matheson Drive, near Army Camp Road? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And -- and then was the main gate at 6 the Park down opposite the sandy parking lot, there was 7 an observation post there, I guess -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- was there? Yes. And was there -- 10 if you would look on the map to your left, sir, do you 11 see the -- just past the area where you marked the 12 forward motion or movement of the bus, there's an area 13 indicated there, I'm not sure how it's described but I 14 think it says sandy knoll. 15 Do you see that area just in front of the 16 bus? Just to the left of the bus? Do you see where you 17 made the marks on the map this morning? 18 A: Yes, where it says sand pile? 19 Q: Sand pile? Is that what it says. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And was that there on September the 22 6th, that sand pile? 23 A: No 24 Q: You're quite sure of that? 25 A: Yeah.
1171 Q: And what's on the south? What -- 2 what is immediately south of the sand pile there; is that 3 trees and bush? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And was that area ever used as 6 an observation point? Because you could see further up - 7 - you could see further up East Parkway Drive from that 8 location than you could by the turnstile, or the gate to 9 the Park, couldn't you? 10 A: No. 11 Q: You couldn't see further up East 12 Parkway Drive? 13 A: There's bush along there. 14 Q: Because there was too much bush? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: That is to say there's too much 17 bush -- 18 A: From there to the Park entrance and 19 Matheson Drive. 20 Q: But if you were -- if you were 21 standing at the front of the bush behind that sand pile, 22 could you see up -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: -- East Parkway Drive? 25 A: Oh yes, you can up until a certain
1181 point where it does -- 2 Q: Where it bends? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: But you would have a better view of 5 East Parkway Drive from that location than you would from 6 the turnstile area of the Park for instance? 7 Is that correct? 8 A: No because from the turn part you can 9 see pretty much all the way down the road toward the 10 lighting is. 11 Q: Until the bend? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: But in the day time you could as well 14 from the turnstile area as you could from where that 15 sandy pile is? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You could see as well one way and the 18 other. To your knowledge, did you see anyone using the 19 sand pile area as an observation post? 20 A: Not on -- not that I can see. 21 Q: You can't recall? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Do you recall telling Mr. Worme about 24 an incident of a confrontation between Dudley George and 25 the OPP on September the 5th? And I believe you said
1191 that both sides were yelling back and forth at each 2 other? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I don't want to embarrass you, 5 but you said you didn't want to repeat what words you 6 used to the OPP; do you remember that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Would you mind telling the 9 Commissioner what you did say to them? 10 A: All I basically was saying, fuck you 11 cops, and you don't have no fucking right around on our 12 pro -- on our land. You're trespassing so get the fuck 13 off our land. And on top of that why don't go -- go back 14 and kiss the Queen's ass. 15 Q: Did you call them pigs? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Did you use any other names like that 18 that you thought were colourful to try and persuade them 19 to leave? 20 A: You fucking pigs and all that shit. 21 Q: All that stuff? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. You mentioned 24 on -- that on September the 5th you described that 25 incident where the one cruiser was pushing the picnic
1201 table back towards the Park? Do you remember that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: On -- on that day September the 5th - 4 - well first of all, what time of day was that 5 approximately, do you remember? 6 A: I can't give you the exact time. 7 Q: Was it late afternoon or morning or? 8 A: It was at night. 9 Q: It was at night? 10 A: It was dark anyways. 11 Q: It was dark? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And as far as you can recall, did the 14 OPP return that night and form a line along the fence, on 15 the outside of the Park? 16 A: September 6th. 17 Q: But not on September the 5th. 18 A: No. 19 Q: You said that -- you told Mr. Worme, 20 I believe that you didn't sleep on the nights of 21 September the 4th and 5th, Is that correct? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: You were up all night? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you hear any firecrackers on
1211 those two (2) nights? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You didn't hear any at all? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Now if I could draw your attention to 6 the fight with the OPP that occurred on September the 7 6th, and I'm going to go over this list again of 8 individuals were not originally Stoney Pointers, and ask 9 you -- well first of all, do you know who was involved in 10 the fight that night and who was not, or were you not in 11 a -- really in a position who all went over the fence? 12 A: Yes, I was -- really don't know who 13 was all -- 14 Q: You -- you really don't know. 15 A: No. 16 Q: You mentioned, I believe, that -- was 17 it Robert Isaac you said was on your left or on -- on -- 18 was walking with you and Dudley George? 19 A: Yes, in a single line at first when-- 20 Q: In a single line at first, yeah. 21 But you don't recall whether any of the 22 other individuals that we mentioned, Buck Doxtator, 23 Gabriel Doxtator, Dutch French, Sam Isaac, Ed Isaac, Les 24 Jewel, Russ Jewel, do you recall if any of those 25 individuals participated in the fight that night?
1221 A: Not Russ Jewel or Les Jewel. 2 Q: Russ and Les Jewel -- 3 A: No. 4 Q: -- were not there? They had been 5 inside -- were they inside the Park that day? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: But they didn't participate in -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- the fight? Do you know where they 10 were when the police -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- came up? You don't know where 13 they were. What about Buck Doxtator? 14 A: Yes, they were all there. 15 Q: He was at the line -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: At the fence line when the police 18 came up? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And did he participate as far as you 21 can recall, in the confrontation? 22 A: Well I couldn't -- 23 Q: You're not sure about that? And what 24 about Dutch French? Was he there? 25 A: Yes.
1231 Q: And Gabriel Doxtator? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And Al George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And Sam Isaac? 6 A: I don't think I remember him being 7 there. 8 Q: You don't remember -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- him being there? What about Ed 11 Isaac? 12 A: No. 13 Q: He wasn't there? Now we've heard 14 reference in -- from previous witnesses to a couple of 15 guys from Walpole. Do you know who those would be? 16 It's not, perhaps, a fair question to you, 17 Mr. George, because you didn't refer to a couple of guys 18 from Walpole and I understand that the Isaac brothers -- 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, if 20 Counsel is saying it's not a fair question, then I think 21 he should either rephrase it but don't put it to the 22 witness. He, himself, is saying it's not a fair 23 question. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can say 25 where the evidence came from.
1241 MR. IAN McGILP: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 3 MR. IAN McGILP: I'm trying to refer -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN McGILP: 7 Q: I understand that Robert Isaac and 8 Sam Isaac and Ed Isaac are all from Walpole. Is that 9 correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do you -- did you see any other 12 individuals from Walpole? 13 A: No, just Robert Isaac. 14 Q: Just Robert Isaac. Now if I could 15 draw your attention, Mr. George, to the confrontation 16 with the police on September the 6th. 17 You described this morning how the police 18 came up East Parkway Drive, stomping their feet, and that 19 the first time they came up they came close to the -- or 20 they came up to the fence and the occupiers retreated 21 back inside the fence. Is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And were rocks thrown at the police 24 before you went inside the fence or after you had gone 25 inside the fence?
1251 A: I myself, I remember throwing rocks 2 at them before I went inside the fence. 3 Q: While you were still out in the 4 parking lot and retreating, you were throwing rocks at 5 them? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And after you got inside the fence, 8 did you throw more rocks at them? 9 A: I'm -- 10 Q: This is on the first -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- approach to the -- to the fence. 13 Okay. And you said that there were obscenities being 14 hollered back and forth and that you couldn't really 15 recall what was said, except your own words. 16 Can I only ask you if the words you were 17 hollering at the police that night were similar to the 18 words you described -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- a few minutes ago? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Thank you. And then I understand 23 that the police backed off at some point after that first 24 rush, backed off somewhat. Is that correct? 25 A: Yeah.
1261 Q: And then at that point did people, 2 after the police backed up the first time, did some of 3 the occupiers go out of the Park into the sandy parking 4 lot? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Everyone stayed inside the fence? 7 A: I'm pretty sure they did. 8 Q: Were there -- there was nobody even 9 went a few steps outside towards the parking lot, as far 10 as you can recall? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And you said, I believe, or I may 13 have this wrong, but were you throwing stones -- okay, 14 the police I think my notes indicate, that the police 15 came up to the fence, or closer to the fence the second 16 time and then they backed off a bit and then you and 17 others went over the fence and were throwing stones at 18 the police after they backed up. 19 A: While they were backing up. 20 Q: While they were backing up. And this 21 is on the second time -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- they approached the fence. And -- 24 and you were yelling at them, I think you said, that they 25 were on your land. Is that --
1271 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- right? And the police backed off 3 again? 4 A: I was closer -- at the end of the 5 line closer to the beach. 6 Q: Yes, you said that. You were at -- 7 you were at the end of the -- you were at the end of the 8 line closer to the beach -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- which would be the north side of 11 the line. Your brother David testified that he was - and 12 I can take you to it if you'd like me to -- he testified 13 that he was near the turnstile and that you were beside 14 him when you were in that line. 15 Does that help you recollection at all? 16 Do you remember being beside David? 17 A: No. 18 Q: You don't remember that? Do you know 19 where Dudley George was along the fence? 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: What about Robert Isaac? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Not sure? Mr. George, with the 24 assistance of Mr. Millar, we're going to put some 25 photographs up on the screen there. And I was hoping he
1281 could -- Mr. Millar could get it larger than that and I'm 2 sure he can with his consummate skill with that machine. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Now the caption underneath that photo 7 says 'Facing south from Beach Road showing entrance from 8 Army Camp Road'. There we are. 9 Do you recognize that perspective? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do you see in the left -- upper 12 left corner of that picture, you see a telephone pole 13 there? Right there? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now it doesn't show the top of that 16 pole, does it, the photograph? 17 A: Just as high as it goes. 18 Q: Just -- well it appears -- it appears 19 as though the photograph cuts off the top of the pole, 20 does it not? Or do you think that's the top of the pole 21 showing? 22 A: That's the top of the pole showing. 23 Q: That's the top of the pole? That's 24 the same perspective only a little closer; is that 25 correct?
1291 A: Yes. 2 Q: And again you can see that pole 3 there. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Could we see the third picture, Mr. 6 Millar. Yes, Number 17 I think it is. 7 Now that's again a similar perspective -- 8 it's a somewhat different perspective but it's still 9 facing south looking at the same area, is that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And this time you'll notice that 12 there's a -- you can see the same telephone pole in the 13 left-hand corner of the -- upper left-hand corner of the 14 picture. But there's another down in the right upper 15 corner. 16 Do you see that one? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you see that there are hydro 19 wires or what appear to be hydro wires running from the 20 right hand telephone pole to the left one; is that 21 correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you'll notice that there is no 24 street light on that pole that you can see the entirety 25 of; is that correct?
1301 A: The one on the right? 2 Q: Yes, the one on the right. And I 3 guess I would ask you: Are you quite sure that there was 4 a street light on that pole on the left? I mean, we 5 appear to see near the top of it and the line of -- the 6 poles in the line don't seem to have lights on them. 7 Are you quite sure there was a street 8 light on that pole in the upper hand left-hand corner? Or 9 could the light that you saw have been a result of the 10 spotlights and headlights that were inside the Park? 11 A: Yes, that light was on. 12 Q: You're sure there is a light there -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- and it was on? 15 A: Yes. Yes. 16 Q: On that -- excuse me, that telephone 17 pole we've been looking at? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you're quite sure about that? 20 Thank you, sir. 21 Now when the confrontation occurred with 22 the police after they came towards the fence the third 23 time, did you participate in the fight? 24 A: Yes. I was on the opposite side from 25 where I was the first -- first time.
1311 Q: Now, let me get -- let's try and get 2 this straight. Originally you -- like, you went out of 3 the Park after the police approached the fence the second 4 time in -- is that correct? 5 A: Yes, I was on the same side, closer 6 to the beach on the north end. 7 Q: And when you went out the second 8 time, you were on the beach end of the fence; is that 9 what you're saying? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes. And then the third time that 12 they came was the time that the fight occurred, in which 13 the police were clubbing and the occupiers were clubbing 14 back; is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And on that occasion, where did you 17 go over the fence? Were you still down at the beach end? 18 A: Yes, I was. 19 Q: You were still down at the beach end 20 of the fence? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So when you went out there the second 23 time, you went over the fence or through the fence at the 24 beach end of the line; is that right? And did you -- 25 were you carrying a stick?
1321 A: No. 2 Q: Were you carrying stones? 3 A: I was picking them up off the ground. 4 Q: You were picking them off the ground. 5 And you were throwing them at the police? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Did you get hit by any police batons? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you get hit by the police at all? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And so, were you to the south, or 12 pardon me, to the north of the main fray with the -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- occupiers? 15 Now, you've testified that when the -- 16 when you went out there the third time and this 17 confrontation was going on between the police and the 18 occupiers, that you were walking on the left of the 19 school bus, on the driver's side of the school bus -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- with Dudley George and Robert 22 Isaac -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- and that you were five (5) to six 25 (6) feet apart?
1331 A: Yeah. 2 Q: How did you get from the -- I mean, 3 you said -- you said to us a second ago that you were at 4 the north end of the confrontation when it occurred, and 5 in fact, somewhat out of the main area of the 6 confrontation, and that that was why you didn't get 7 assaulted or hit by the police batons. 8 How did you get from the north end of the 9 confrontation to the left hand side or driver's side of 10 the school bus, which would have been at the south end of 11 the confrontation, wouldn't it? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And do you remember walking there 14 during the middle of that confrontation, or how did you-- 15 A: No, I don't. 16 Q: You don't remember? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Are you sure you wound up on the -- 19 on the south side or driver's side of the bus when it 20 came out? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You're quite sure about that? 23 A: Yes. That's the part of the night I 24 don't -- I ain't never going to forget. 25 Q: I'm sure. Now you said, Mr. George,
1341 that there was reference made to Molotov cocktails and 2 you said, I think, that they had already been prepared by 3 the time you returned to the Park that evening; is that 4 right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And -- and that -- did you say that 7 they were made for the purpose of burning down the store, 8 or just that they were used for that purpose; I'm not 9 sure? 10 A: Just for the store. 11 Q: They were made for that purpose -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- or they were used for that 14 purpose? 15 A: No. Just for the store. 16 Q: They were made for the purpose of -- 17 A: For the store. 18 Q: -- burning down the store? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Would you have used them on the 21 police if they had come back that night? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You wouldn't? Why not? 24 A: Why just add -- end up another 25 corruption again after that, if we had done that.
1351 Q: Do you think a Molotov cocktail is a 2 more serious weapon than stones? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You indicated on -- that on September 5 the 7th, you found three (3) empty bullet -- three (3) 6 empty casings out in the area where the confrontation had 7 occurred; is that correct? 8 A: Well, in -- not -- not right on the 9 road in -- just off the -- 10 Q: Not right on the road? 11 A: -- on the other side of the road. 12 Q: On the other side? And I take it 13 that you identified one as a 230 -- a 223 and another in 14 a 9 mil' and another one a 40 calibre? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And were you familiar -- are you -- I 17 take it you, being able to identify those empty casings, 18 that you are quite familiar with firearms? 19 A: All except for the 40 cal'. 20 Q: Except for the 40 cal'. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: But you recognized it when you saw 23 it? 24 Now, you said that you did do some hunting 25 on the Army Camp; is that correct?
1361 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you get any game when you 3 were hunting? 4 A: No. 5 Q: You didn't? Did you shoot at any? 6 A: No. 7 Q: But you did have a firearm? 8 A: Yes, that I borrowed. 9 Q: You borrowed one. Excuse me. And 10 were you hunting in the fall of 1994? 11 A: In the winter. 12 Q: In the winter of 1994? 13 A: Yes, when the snow was on the ground. 14 Q: When the snow was on the ground. And 15 weren't you under a firearms prohibition at that time? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: But you were hunting anyway? 18 A: Yes. But I didn't have no fire -- no 19 weapons at that time -- at that time. 20 Q: You were hunting without a weapon? 21 A: No. I didn't have none at the time. 22 Q: You didn't have a weapon at that 23 time? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you borrow one --
1371 A: I ever owned one. 2 Q: No. Did you borrow one when you went 3 hunting in the winter of 1994? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You mentioned this morning that there 6 was -- on September the 6th there was an evacuation of 7 women and children earlier in the evening that day; is 8 that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And who decided that? 11 A: I don't know. 12 Q: You don't know. Do you know why 13 women and children -- 14 A: I guess everybody -- everybody's 15 decision. 16 Q: It was everyone's decision? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Was there a discussion about it that 19 you recall? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Do you know why the decision was 22 taken by everybody to -- to evacuate women and children 23 early that evening? 24 A: Well, because everybody thought they 25 might -- they might have came back and done that again.
1381 Q: Come back and done what again? Now, 2 this is before the confrontation with the OPP which 3 occurred -- 4 A: All that I remember is that the -- 5 some of them younger ones were heading out after that. I 6 don't remember none going out before that. 7 Q: I thought you said that there was an 8 evacuation of women and children earlier that evening, 9 before the fight with the police. You don't recall that 10 or you do? 11 A: Well, in a way, yes. But I don't 12 know who -- whose idea it was though. 13 Q: No. But -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- do you know why it was done, 16 whoever the idea it was? 17 A: For the safety of the children. 18 Q: Safety of the children. Was there 19 any reason to think that the safety of the children were 20 in greater jeopardy that night than the previous night? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what was that? 23 A: Didn't want nothing to happen to them 24 because they'd be the -- be the next generations to look 25 after our -- look after the land.
1391 Q: But that was true on September the 2 5th -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- as well as September the 6th; 5 wasn't it? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what was the difference between 8 those two (2) evenings that resulted in the children and 9 women being evacuated? 10 A: Well, I wasn't up at the front at the 11 time the children were being evacuated, the ones up 12 there. I just know of the ones that was in -- down the 13 Park. 14 Q: So -- so you're -- you're telling the 15 Commissioner that you're not sure why there was an 16 increased sense of danger to the children on September 17 the 6th, in the early evening? 18 A: Yes. Because we didn't figure that 19 nothing would have happened, like the shooting. 20 Q: You didn't -- you did or didn't 21 figure there was going to be something happening later 22 that night? 23 A: If we had -- if the children were 24 down there we didn't think nothing like that would have 25 happened.
1401 Q: So removing the children, does that 2 make it more likely that that would happen? 3 A: In their safety, yes. 4 Q: I -- I apologize, I think I must be 5 confusing you. We have it clear that you told us that 6 the women and the children were evacuated on -- on the -- 7 early evening of September the 6th. And you said that 8 that was for the safety of the children. 9 Are you with me so far? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the question I'm asking is, as 12 far as you are aware, was there any reason to think that 13 the children's safety was in jeopardy in the early 14 evening of September the 6th to a greater extent than it 15 had been the previous day or the day before? 16 A: Well, because we thought would happen 17 earlier before that. 18 Q: You thought something -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- might happen on September the 6th? 21 A: Yes, before everything happened. 22 Q: And what made you think something 23 might happen on September the 6th that hadn't happened on 24 September the 5th; do you recall? 25 A: No. Well...
1411 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I take it you're not sure of the 4 answer to that question -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- Mr. George? Thank you. My Friend 7 Mr. Millar has found another photograph of that -- of 8 that area. And I believe that that shows a complete 9 picture of the telephone pole we were looking at earlier. 10 Do you see it? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you see a street light on top of 13 it? 14 A: Well, no, 'cause it's facing in the 15 same direction as the picture is. 16 Q: I'm sorry, you're saying -- would you 17 say that again, please? 18 A: Because it's facing in the same 19 direction as the picture was taken. 20 Q: Oh the -- the -- 21 A: The light's lined up. 22 Q: The light is on the back side of the 23 pole which is not -- 24 A: No, it's on the front. You can't 25 really tell.
1421 Q: You can't see the light from -- 2 A: The front view. 3 Q: From the -- from this view of the 4 pole you can't see the light because it's on the other 5 side. Is that right? 6 A: What's on this side? 7 Q: Well, perhaps we can use directions. 8 I mean, the photograph is looking south, is that correct? 9 Or, no, the photograph is looking -- 10 A: East. 11 Q: East, isn't it, yes. And -- and 12 could you say whether the light is on the north, the 13 south, the east or the west side of that pole. 14 A: It's on the east side. 15 Q: It's on the east side. So that would 16 be the side facing the photographer, wouldn't it? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: If it was on the east side, and the 21 photographer is on the -- is east of the Park, east of 22 the telephone pole, then we should be able to see that 23 light -- 24 A: Yes, I was getting -- 25 Q: -- on that photograph.
1431 A: -- the hydro poles mixed up 2 Q: Maybe you got your hydro poles mixed 3 up? 4 A: 'Cause I can see that other one 5 behind it. 6 Q: You can see the pole behind it, yes. 7 And is there a light on that one? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So it -- maybe it was the pole that's 10 inside the Park that had the light on it, rather than the 11 pole that's out -- that's out at the edge of the Park, is 12 that what you're saying? 13 A: Yes. Well, it's kind of on that 14 little hump -- hump on the side there. 15 Q: Which is now the -- the pole with -- 16 that pole there, is -- 17 A: Yeah, it's on top of that little 18 mound. 19 Q: How far is that pole that Mr. Millar 20 is indicating with the white spot, how far is that west 21 of the pole we were talking about? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I can't be exact how many feet it is.
1441 Q: You're not sure -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- no. But it's -- it's -- it -- 4 would it be about a normal distance for two (2) telephone 5 poles or two (2) power poles to be apart? 6 A: Well, not that close. I've never 7 seen hydro poles that close. 8 Q: Okay. Okay. 9 A: But I do remember that light -- light 10 being on, though. 11 Q: But you're -- but you're now telling 12 us that you think it was probably on -- on the -- what 13 shall we call it, the -- the more easterly pole rather 14 than the one that's right out -- 15 A: Yes, that's that -- 16 Q: -- near the -- 17 A: -- hydro pole I was talking about, 18 the one with the light on it. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Just for the benefit of Counsel, this 23 photograph we're looking at is Number 2 from Exhibit P- 24 24. 25
1451 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Is that pole that we -- we were 4 talking about, the one (1) that you say has the light on 5 it, that is -- is that the light by the Park store? 6 A: Just outside the -- the fence area, 7 where that fence is along the Park, give or take twenty 8 (20) feet I suppose, away from the fence. 9 Q: Can you look at this photograph here. 10 Do you see that light that we're talking about on that 11 photograph? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: That's the other one that was on. 16 Q: So -- so there's -- there were two 17 (2) lights on, two (2) street lights? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And one (1) was by the Park store, is 20 that correct? 21 A: Well, not by the Park store, by the 22 Park fence. Like about twenty (20) feet out from it, 23 away from it, where the Park fence is. 24 Q: Do we have that on -- can you 25 indicate that on the map? That's the Park fence --
1461 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- and -- and where is the light that 3 is closest to the Park store? 4 A: Somewheres in there. 5 Q: It's in that area? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And where is the other light? 8 A: (Indicating) 9 Q: So you're indicating that there's -- 10 there was one (1) light, the one that we had been talking 11 about, is on a pole that is more or less directly behind 12 the sandy knoll that's indicated on that map? That was 13 the first one you -- in that area there -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- is -- is the one (1) light -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- and the other light is -- is on 18 the road as it leads down to the beach, is that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: So when you said that earlier that 21 there was a light on and that it illuminated the scene, 22 it was the first light, the one by the sandy nolle that 23 you were referring to is that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yes. Now, Mr. George, you told us
1471 that you took over the Park to protect your ancestors' 2 gravesites, is that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And do you recall your grandfather or 5 anyone telling you about gravesites in the sandy parking 6 lot area outside the fence? 7 A: No. Not to my knowledge, just inside 8 the Park area. 9 Q: There was a meeting prior to the 10 decision to take over the barracks in 1995, which you 11 told us about. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And there was a meeting prior to 14 Labour Day to discuss taking over the Park that you told 15 us about. 16 A: Both taking over on the built-up area 17 that day? 18 Q: No. I -- I'm sorry. I moved on to 19 the meeting that was held the -- I think it was the night 20 before Labour Day or two (2) days before Labour Day, to 21 discuss taking over and occupying the Provincial Park. 22 Do you remember that meeting? 23 And I asked you who was there and we 24 talked about the Doxtators and the Jewels and so on at 25 that meeting?
1481 A: Yes. 2 Q: Was there a meeting to de -- was 3 there a meeting held or a discussion held with respect to 4 the decision to take over the sandy parking lot? 5 A: Not that I can remember. 6 Q: Not that you can recall? 7 A: No. 8 Q: How did that decision get made as far 9 as you are concerned? 10 A: About taking over the Park? 11 Q: Yes. About taking over the sandy 12 parking area? 13 A: Because that was part of our land 14 too. 15 Q: That was the reason -- was it just a 16 spontaneous thing or did somebody say, let's get the 17 parking lot? 18 A: No. 19 Q: It was just a spontaneous thing? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now you've said that you occupied the 22 sandy parking lot, when I say occupy, you moved the 23 picnic tables out there and you built a fire or someone 24 built a fire out there I think. 25 A: Yes, someone built -- someone built
1491 it. 2 Q: And there were on different 3 occasions, there was more and less always someone out 4 there, some individual or occupiers were out there or 5 around the picnic tables at least from time to time. 6 And you decided to occupy that land in 7 that way because it's your land, is that right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you were willing to throw stones 10 and use sticks to get the OPP off your land, weren't you? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You've also indicated that your land 13 extends -- or your land includes the area where cottages 14 are built along the lake, is that right? 15 A: I never heard too much about that. 16 Just basically in the Camp area, Army Camp area and all 17 that -- the Godridge. 18 Q: I thought you said this morning that 19 your land included the land that -- the land that the 20 cottages were built on along Lake Huron. 21 A: Yes, because I just -- have recently 22 just found out about that. The -- 23 Q: You've recently just found out about 24 that? Yeah. Would you be willing to use sticks and 25 stones to remove the cottage owners or the OPP from their
1501 property? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Now I just have a couple of more 4 questions, Mr. George. You told us that on September the 5 6th, that as the OPP came towards the fence, you were 6 throwing rock -- the first time you were throwing rocks 7 at them, is that right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And they would back up. And then the 10 second time they came up to the fence, there was again -- 11 you were throwing rocks at them -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- and again they retreated, is that 14 right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then people moved outside the 17 fence again with sticks and rocks again? 18 A: From what I know of, yes. 19 Q: Yes. And the previous day you saw 20 the police push the picnic tables back towards the fence, 21 didn't you? 22 A: I just seen it for just that one (1) 23 part. 24 Q: Just that one (1) part where the one 25 (1) cruiser was pushing --
1511 A: Yes. When we were bringing picnic 2 tables to the -- ones from the Park. 3 Q: Yes. And the OPP never came into the 4 Park, did they? 5 A: Inside the Park area, no. 6 Q: Inside the Park. No. So when you 7 and the others went over the fence that night on 8 September the 6th, you knew there was going to be a fight 9 with the police, didn't you? 10 A: At some point, yeah. 11 Q: Yeah. And you were prepared to use 12 sticks and rocks in that fight, weren't you? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yeah. Do you see yourself as 15 essentially at war with the OPP? 16 A: At war with them? As of today or 17 back then? 18 Q: Back then. Let me ask you this, if I 19 may, first. Do you see yourself as a Canadian citizen or 20 do you regard Canada as a foreign country? 21 A: We still consider Canada, North 22 America. 23 Q: Is Canada a foreign country to you? 24 A: To me, yeah, because I was born in 25 the States.
1521 Q: You -- you now reside on the Stoney 2 Point land or is -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yes. And -- and as a resident of the 5 Stoney Point land, do you regard Canada as a foreign 6 country or do you regard the Stoney Point lands as being 7 in Canada, in -- as part of Canada? 8 A: Being in Canada. 9 Q: Okay. And do you -- so you don't 10 regard the OPP in the same way that you would in -- 11 regard an invading army from -- if some country decided 12 to invade Canada, let's say George Bush sent an army up 13 to invade Canada -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're 15 getting -- 16 MR. IAN MCGILP: Mr. Ross -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we're 18 getting a little -- 19 MR. IAN MCGILP: -- has an objection -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we're 21 going a little far afield. Maybe not so far afield. 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: That's my point. 23 MR. IAN MCGILP: I -- I will withdraw 24 this question just to make Mr. Ross happy. And, Mr. 25 George, thank you. Those are all my questions.
1531 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much. 3 Mr. Downard, on behalf of former Premier 4 Harris? 5 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Commissioner, I am 6 going to attempt to assist in expediting the process once 7 more. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you? 9 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very kindly, Mr. Downard. We now have Mr. Ross or Mr. 12 Scullion. I guess Mr. Ross, who is Mr. George's Counsel. 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. 14 Commissioner. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 17 Q: Mr. George, Mr. Sandler, on behalf of 18 the OPP, was asking you about communications the night 19 that Dudley George was shot. 20 And my recollection is that you indicated 21 that there was a lot of yelling back and forth? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: I take it then that you couldn't 24 clearly hear what the police had to say? 25 A: No.
1541 Q: And with all the yelling, would it 2 also be fair to say that the police, in all probability, 3 couldn't hear clearly what anybody was saying? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, as far as the police is 6 concerned, do you recall them coming with any speaker 7 system, anything that can overpower the yelling that you 8 -- was happening, so that they can make their positions 9 clear? Any bullhorns, any loudspeakers, did they have 10 that? 11 A: No, they didn't. 12 Q: Now, Mr. McGilp, for the OPPA, the 13 last lawyer who was up, walked you through some names of 14 some people who were present the night of September the 15 6th, 1995, recalled the names: Robert Isaac, Buck 16 Doxtator, et cetera, that he spoke to you about? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yeah. Now, did you know Glen 19 Bressette? 20 A: Glen Bressette? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Was he there that night? 24 A: I think -- yes, he was. 25 Q: And is he a resident of Aazhoodena?
1551 A: Yes, he is. 2 Q: Did you know Nicholas Cottrelle? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Was he there that night? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And was he a resident of Aazhoodena? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you know -- sorry. Your brother 9 is David Abraham George? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And he was there? 12 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And a member of Aazhoodena? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And Elwood George, he was there? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And a member of Aazhoodena? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And Glenn George, he was there? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And a member of Aazhoodena? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And Roderick George, he was there? 25 A: Yes.
1561 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And a member of Aazhoodena? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And Stewart George, he was there? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And a member of Aazhoodena? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And Warren George, he was there? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And a member of Aazhoodena? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Wesley George, he was there? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And a member of Aazhoodena? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Dale Plain, he was there? 18 A: Dale Plain? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And he's a member of Aazhoodena? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Marlin Simon, he was there? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And a member of Aazhoodena?
1571 A: Yes. 2 Q: And there's also Leland, Leland 3 George, and sometimes Leland White, he was there? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And a member of Aazhoodena? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And along with those, there were 8 quite a few women who are residents of Aazhoodena? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: So it was not just a situation of 11 people coming from outside the community to create 12 trouble; am I correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And tell me something further. Much 15 is being made of the fact that some people are from 16 Walpole Island and some are from Oneida, and other First 17 Nations communities. 18 Now let me ask you, in your experience, 19 aren't you free to visit anyone of those communities at 20 any time? 21 A: Am I free to visit them? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And they are free to visit you from 25 time to time?
1581 A: Yes. 2 Q: And in fact, they visited you in 1993 3 when you were on the range? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then visited again throughout 6 1994 when they -- when you were on the range? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And they visited through 1995 when 9 you were on the range and in the built-up area? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: So it is nothing unusual that they 12 happened to be there, the day that the police came for 13 Dudley George? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now, the night of September the 6th, 19 1995, there were a couple clashes with the police; am I 20 correct? 21 A: A couple of -- 22 Q: Clashes. When the police punched out 23 and you guys fought them back? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yes. Now, about how many -- how many
1591 occupiers were down in the Park and -- and sandy parking 2 lot area? About how many can you think of? Your best 3 number. 4 A: Twenty (20) of us. 5 Q: And were you outnumbered by the 6 police? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And some of you had sticks, some of 9 you had sort of hand weapons? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Sticks, bats -- 12 A: Clubs. 13 Q: -- that kind of stuff? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the police had truncheons, night 16 sticks, et cetera? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now what kind of fight did you expect 19 to have with the police? Number one (1), you're 20 outnumbered; number two (2), what did you expect? 21 A: We didn't think that they'd -- would 22 have reacted like that towards us. 23 Q: Would have reacted like that means 24 what, though? 25 A: How they were -- how they were
1601 approaching us with their sticks and stuff, their billy 2 clubs. 3 Q: But apart from their approach with 4 sticks and stuff, you guys had sticks and they had 5 sticks? 6 A: Yeah. Billy clubs and batons. 7 Q: Yes. Did you expect that it would 8 result in -- in the use of guns? 9 A: No, we didn't. 10 Q: In fact, were you surprised -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- when there were actual shootings? 13 A: Yes, we were. We were -- we were all 14 shocked about that. 15 Q: I see. You recognized that in the 16 confrontation, you thought it would be sticks against 17 sticks, -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- but not guns against sticks? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Thank you very much. No more 22 questions. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Any re- 24 examination? 25 MR. DONALD WORME: No re-examination.
1611 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No re- 2 examination? That's it. Thank you very much, Mr. 3 George, -- 4 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- for 6 coming and giving your testimony. You're finished. 7 Thank you. 8 THE WITNESS: Thanks. 9 10 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 11 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mr. George. 13 Commissioner, I wonder if we could take a short break. 14 Our next witness was here this morning and he isn't back 15 yet, so we have to -- we're trying to locate him. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see, this 17 is Mr. Cloud? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Cloud, yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, we'll 20 take a break. 21 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 22 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 2:50 p.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 3:05 p.m.
1621 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 3 resumed. Please be seated. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 5 Commissioner. Our next witness is Mr. Mike Cloud. 6 7 MICHAEL WAYNE CLOUD, Sworn: 8 9 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Mr. Cloud, I understand that you were 11 born on November 16th, 1964? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you were raised at Kettle Point? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that your parents are Marlene and 16 Donald Cloud? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And your maternal grandmother was 19 Clarabelle Millikan (phonetic)? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Is that correct? And Ms. Millikan, 22 your grandmother, lived at Stoney Point? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I understand that she died when 25 you were quite young?
1631 A: Yes. 2 Q: Your paternal grandparents were 3 Sheldon and Jeanette Cloud? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And they were from Stoney Point as 6 well? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And your great-grandfather was 9 Elliott Shawnoo? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And he, as well, was from Stoney 12 Point? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And your great-grandmother was Lucy 15 Cloud? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And she was from Stoney Point as 18 well? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I understand as well that you 21 have six (6) siblings? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You're the oldest -- you're number 24 three (3) in the family? 25 A: Yes.
1641 Q: And the oldest is Trevor Cloud? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the second oldest is your sister, 4 Deanne Bressette? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then you? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then you were followed by Leonard 9 Cloud? He's your next younger brother? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And number five (5) is your brother 12 Blaine Cloud? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And your -- the sixth child of your 15 parents was Joanne Bressette? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And then your youngest brother is 18 Joseph Cloud? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I understand as well that you 21 presently reside at the Army Camp? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that you are employed at the Army 24 Camp doing security at the gate? 25 A: Yes.
1651 Q: And that you moved to the Army Camp I 2 believe it was permanently in 2000? Or was it -- 3 A: Summer around 2001. 4 Q: Summer of 2001? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And prior to the summer of 2001, you 7 had been as I understand it, a volunteer fire -- 8 firefighter with the fire department at Kettle and Stony 9 Point? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you started as a volunteer 12 fireman when you were fifteen (15)? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that for the years 1993 and 1994, 15 you were the Deputy Chief of the fire department? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that in 1995, you became the 18 Chief of the Kettle and Stony Point fire department? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you were the Chief of the fire 21 department for six (6) years I believe? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Until 2001? And can you tell me what 24 your duties were as Chief of the fire department? 25 A: Well, my duties included upkeep of
1661 the building like just making sure that it was clean, 2 keeping track of all equipment, the majority of the day 3 to day operations, like, I had to check the radios every 4 day and made sure that they worked. 5 I had to check the trucks every day 6 because the batteries would run low in the -- in the fire 7 truck sometime, usually pumper number 2, so I had to 8 check that every day. And every single day I was in 9 communications with our message service to our 10 communications in St. Thomas. They used to relay our 11 signal via telephone into our radio system which would 12 dispatch our pagers. 13 So that was very carefully monitored 14 because if the hydro flickered it would -- it could even 15 for a split second, it would knock out our programming 16 and I would have to go up and punch in the code and reset 17 the radio system. 18 Q: And the radio system was important 19 because that's how you called out the volunteer 20 firefighters? 21 A: Yes. Yes. 22 Q: And as well, as Chief, you were 23 involved and responsible for training your firefighters? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And -- for certification of the
1671 firefighters and the department? 2 A: Yes, sir. It was my responsibility 3 to not just look for training but certifiable training. 4 That way, you know, you -- you would get the best 5 instructors and that's what we wanted. We wanted 6 everybody to be trained properly and that was a pretty 7 big factor. 8 Because we even had training, like, for 9 jaws of life, pumper operations, confined space, going to 10 the school, doing actual live fires and stuff like that. 11 Q: And you were also, as Chief, 12 responsible for the budgeting for the department? 13 A: Yes. I had to do the budgeting at 14 the beginning of every -- like the fiscal budget had to 15 be in by March. I used to always have mine done in 16 January, I'd have it all done and planned for the year 17 for heat, hydro, for training, fire honoraria, Christmas 18 bonus, and I had -- I only had so much dollars to work 19 with. 20 So for the large portion -- at the time 21 the Band Administrator he advised that I was to do a lot 22 more training with being, you know, being a fire chief 23 and which involved a lot of money every year. 24 And instead of doing that, I decided that 25 it was best not to waste all that money, you know, flying
1681 somewhere here and there to do the fire -- fire chief 2 training, where we have such a limited supply of dollars. 3 So all that money that would have been 4 spent, would have took out the Christmas bonus, and the 5 Christmas bonus is a -- an incentive that all the firemen 6 needed for Volunteer Fire Department. 7 So I -- I could have used the cash, but 8 the Fire Department needed it more, on the whole. 9 Q: And as the Chief of the Fire 10 Department, it was, as I understand it, more or less a 11 full-time job? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you are paid? 14 A: About a dollar ($1) an hour. 15 Q: And you -- your profession during 16 this period -- period of time, other than as a -- the 17 Chief of the Fire Department, is -- your trade is as a 18 carpenter? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you've worked as a carpenter all 21 your life? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I also understand that after 24 1995, you worked -- you served on a number of committees 25 relating to the former Army Camp at Stoney Point?
1691 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the -- as I understand it, Mr. 3 Cloud, when you were a young man, when you were nineteen 4 (19), you were convicted in Sarnia for the possession of 5 stolen property over two hundred dollars ($200) and you 6 received a suspended sentence? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And at the same time you were 9 convicted of possession of housebreaking tools and given 10 six (6) months probation? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And in the same year, in 1983, as a 13 young man, nineteen (19), in Sarnia, you were convicted 14 of two (2) counts of breaking and enter? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And were sentenced to three (3) 17 months on each charge, consecutive? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you were also convicted of breach 20 of probation? 21 A: I must have. 22 Q: And given a one-month consecutive? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I understand that in October of 25 1991, in Sarnia, you were convicted of assault causing
1701 bodily harm and sentenced to ten (10) days incarceration 2 plus twelve (12) months probation? 3 A: Yes, but that was just a fistfight. 4 Q: And at the same time you were 5 convicted of mischief and given the same sentence to run 6 concurrently, as I understand it? 7 A: You know what? I don't even remember 8 that one (1). 9 Q: And there was also a five (5) year 10 firearm prohibition? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And a firearm was not involved in the 13 assault; was it? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And if I could take you to the -- 16 back to talk a little bit about your parents and 17 grandparents, the -- how did you -- did you learn at some 18 point as -- when you were growing up about the 19 appropriation of Stoney Point in 1942? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: We all did. 23 Q: Pardon me? 24 A: We all did. 25 Q: And who told you about the
1711 appropriation in 1942? 2 A: Well, at the time we weren't told it 3 was an appropriation or anything like that. We were told 4 that our land was stolen by our parents and our 5 grandparents. 6 Q: And your grandparents were -- was it 7 Sheldon and Jeannette Cloud? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I understand your great- 10 grandmother Lucy Cloud was -- also lived at Stoney Point 11 in 1942? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And were you told by your family 14 about Lucy Cloud? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And what were you told by your family 17 about Lucy Cloud? 18 A: I was told by my father and I was 19 told by my gram and -- my grandmother and my grandfather 20 that the -- some of the soldiers around there were making 21 fun of her, they were calling her crazy because she 22 didn't want to leave her home. She was the last person 23 to leave Stoney Point. 24 And while they were bulldozing it down and 25 shooting -- soldiers were shooting guns around her house,
1721 she was laying on her step, crying. 2 Q: And she was the last person to 3 leave -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- Stoney Point? Is that correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I understand that as a young boy 8 and as you grew older that you would go to Stoney Point 9 with your parents? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And could you tell us what you did 12 when you went to Stoney Point with your parents? 13 A: We would go -- we would go down this 14 road. I guess at the time it was called Matheson Drive. 15 We'd get to the end and my dad would cut the gate or 16 break the gate and then we would go back into the Inland 17 Lakes to fish and generally, if we were lucky, we could 18 be there for an hour before the military would show up. 19 And then they would ask us to leave, 20 'cause it was generally just one (1) guy, sometimes two 21 (2). There'd be an argument between them and my parents 22 and then they would leave and generally half hour to an 23 hour they would come back again and we wouldn't leave. 24 And then the base commander would show up 25 and then -- threatening to tow the vehicle and everything
1731 else and then we would finally leave, but we'd have to go 2 out through the front gate. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: Which we now control. 5 Q: And the front gate -- the front gate 6 being the front gate that's at the built-up area of the 7 Army camp. 8 A: Yeah, our homeland, Stoney Point. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: Aazhoodena. 11 Q: And the road that you spoke of, is it 12 the road that's up on the screen -- we've got Exhibit 40 13 and it shows the former Ipperwash Military Reserve -- 14 A: That one right there. We would -- 15 Q: But now Matheson Drive -- Matheson 16 Drive and it leads to a road inside the Army camp? 17 A: Yes, we would follow that road right 18 down here to the Inland Lakes. 19 Q: And the Inland Lakes are on this map, 20 as shown as Bayou Lake and Moon Lake? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: We'd generally fish at the bridge
1741 separating the two (2) bayous. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: You -- is that the bridge -- is that 6 bridge still there today, that you would fish at? 7 A: Yeah, but you can't drive across it 8 now. 9 Q: Okay. And so that was a bridge 10 between what is shown on Exhibit P-40 as Bayou Lake and 11 Moon Lake or is -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Excuse me, yeah, Moon Lake. And how 14 often as a young boy would you go with your parents to 15 the -- to Stoney Point? 16 A: Every year. 17 Q: And more than once a year? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I understand that you learned to 20 hunt as a young man, a very as -- actually before you 21 were twelve (12)? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did you -- who taught you to 24 hunt? 25 A: My father.
1751 Q: And when did you first -- can you 2 recall when you first went hunting with your father? 3 A: I can't -- I can't think of how young 4 I was, but I know I was just -- quite small. I went on a 5 couple of deer drives with him and his friends. 6 Q: And a deer drive is, as I understand 7 it, when you get a group of people on one (1) side of the 8 bush who then walks through the bush making noise and 9 there are people designated as the shooters on the other 10 side of the bush to shoot the deer when they come out of 11 the bush? 12 A: That is correct. 13 Q: And at one (1) point you were given, 14 I think, a .22? 15 A: Yeah, I was given a .22 for my tenth 16 birthday. 17 Q: And what did you use that for, sir? 18 A: Muskrats, coon and deer. 19 Q: And you were given a shotgun at -- 20 when you were twelve (12)? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell us what kind of 23 shotgun that was? 24 A: It was a Remington Break -- 25 Q: And --
1761 A: -- single shot. 2 Q: A single shot? And the -- what did 3 you use the shotgun for? 4 A: Primarily for duck hunting, but I did 5 use it for deer drives and deer hunting with Double-O 6 Buck. 7 Q: Okay. And, as you grew up when you 8 were a teenager, did you hunt on the Stoney Point lands 9 as it was then the Army Camp? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And how often would you go hunting? 12 A: Every year. 13 Q: During the hunting season? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what did you normally hunt for? 16 A: In springtime me and my family, we 17 would trap muskrats, we would also shoot them. In the 18 fall time we would hunt coon and deer. 19 Q: And did you at some point -- 20 A: And partridge. 21 Q: -- partridge? And did you 22 principally hunt with your parents or your family 23 members, or did you at times hunt by yourself or with 24 your friends? 25 A: Are you -- you're referring to just
1771 on our home lands? 2 Q: In -- in -- at Stoney Point, yes. 3 A: Well, up until I was about probably 4 fourteen (14), I always had to hunt with my dad, when I 5 was on our home, but when I got a little bit older, he 6 said it was all right for me and my brothers to start 7 hunting on our own. And so we would hunt on our own down 8 there, and sometimes we'd take friends. 9 Q: And I take it from your answer you 10 would hunt elsewhere too, during the hunting season? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And, the -- what do you recall your 13 parents saying about Stoney Point, or your grandparents, 14 about Stoney Point and the appropriation as you were 15 growing up? 16 A: I never learned of the word 17 appropriation until just a few years ago. Like I said, 18 my -- my parents and my grandparents always referred to 19 the land as being stolen. 20 Q: And your grandparents had land at 21 Stoney Point? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: On both sides of the family? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did your -- your father -- did
1781 your parents live at Stoney Point as young people? 2 A: My father did. 3 Q: Okay. And were you involved in any 4 protests with respect to the Stoney Point lands? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when did they start? How old 7 were you when you became involved in those? 8 A: Very young. They were early teens. 9 Sometimes we would protest in front of the gate down 10 there or on the highway, sometimes we'd protest at the 11 Band Office in Kettle Point. 12 Q: And the protests involved the request 13 to have the land returned? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And, as I understand it -- excuse me 16 -- were you ever -- did you have any discussions with 17 your parents or grandparents about burial grounds at 18 Stoney Point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And can you tell us about those, Mr. 21 Cloud? 22 A: That it was a family plot. 23 Q: And where was the family plot 24 located? 25 A: It was in the Provincial Park.
1791 Q: And whose -- which part of the family 2 -- part of the family was the family -- did the family 3 plot belong to? 4 A: Albert George. 5 Q: And Albert George was married to, or 6 lived with your grandmother, Lucy Cloud? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And who told you about the -- the 9 family plot in the -- 10 A: It was my grandpa. 11 Q: And your -- when you say your 12 grandpa, which grandpa? 13 A: Shawnoo? 14 Q: Shawnoo? And did he -- 15 A: Cloud. 16 Q: Shawnoo Cloud? Did he -- I mean, 17 excuse me, your grandfather, Sheldon Cloud? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And did your grandfather tell you how 20 many people were buried in the family plot at the Park? 21 A: Three (3). 22 Q: And did he tell you who -- who was 23 buried there? 24 A: I can't remember, I was a kid. 25 Q: Okay. And did he tell you or do you
1801 remember -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- where the plot was located? 4 A: No. 5 Q: No. And did you attend the funeral 6 of Mr. Dan George in 1990? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And did you have anything to do with 9 the arrangements for the funeral? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And your father was involved in a 12 protest in 1991 at the Army Camp, is that correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And who did he -- who was he in the 15 protest with? 16 A: Well there was a bunch of us Stoney 17 Pointers. We were working down there. Some of -- most 18 of us were working down there but a lot weren't. We just 19 built a little sacred fire as a, you know, trying to -- 20 just trying to let people know what was going on because 21 there was Canadian militia at the time. 22 They were doing -- what were told is 23 urban terrorist exercises. And so that's all it was. 24 And Norman Shawnoo was there. He was another one (1). 25 And then they kicked my dad out of -- they sent him a
1811 letter saying that he banned from all military bases in 2 Canada. 3 Q: And was your father working at the 4 Army Camp at the time? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And was he working in construction at 7 the Army Camp? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And was Mr. Norman Shawnoo working at 10 the Army Camp as well? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And can you tell us where the sacred 13 fire was built? 14 A: By the church. 15 Q: By the church -- 16 A: Or not by the church, by the 17 hospital. 18 Q: By the hospital in the built-up area? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the hospital is at the easterly 21 end of the buildings in the built-up area, is that 22 correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I understand that you were 25 working as well at the Army Camp at the time?
1821 A: Yes. 2 Q: As a roofer? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what happened as a result of your 5 father and Mr. Shawnoo getting a letter banning them from 6 the Camp and other army camps across the country? 7 A: Well, our entire roofing crew were 8 Native with the exception of one non-Native and we had 9 roughly about twenty (20) squares of exposed roof. In we 10 walked, we said if they weren't going to be allowed back 11 in we were going to all quit. And our boss, Mr. Bush, 12 tried to talk us all out of it saying it wasn't worth 13 giving up our jobs for a couple of guys. 14 And we all stuck together and we said we 15 were just going to -- we were going to leave if they 16 didn't let those guys back in, because they had no right 17 banning them from Stoney Point to begin with. 18 Q: And as a result of the protest of 19 your group, the ban was rescinded? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And your father and Mr. Norman 22 Shawnoo were permitted to remain working in the Army Camp 23 and come into the Army Camp? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And how long have you -- did you know
1831 Mr. Dudley George? 2 A: All my life. 3 Q: And did you ever hunt with Mr. 4 George? 5 A: No. I didn't know him as a hunter. 6 Q: What did you know Mr. George as? 7 A: Just kind of a happy-go-lucky type 8 guy. 9 Q: And how else would you describe Mr. 10 George? 11 A: He like to have a beer, he liked to 12 work hard though, because I always seemed to see him 13 cutting wood all the time. And he was always helping 14 somebody. He was always friendly, he was never rude. 15 That's the one thing I really remember about him. He was 16 never rude to people. 17 Q: And he would tease people? 18 A: Yeah. He was a joker too. 19 Q: And in 1993 the -- at some point you 20 -- when did you learn of the occupation of the -- that 21 part of the Army Camp by the ranges? 22 A: I heard about it through one (1) of 23 the meetings, that it was going to be -- there was going 24 to be letters handed out proving that they never had no 25 right to even be there and they never had a right to --
1841 much less kick us out, they would have to protect us 2 under the Royal Proclamation. 3 And, like, that's a few years back. So I 4 can't remember the specific details. But it -- it was -- 5 it was to do with that. And the proper documentation was 6 handed, where basically, in a nutshell, it was reminding 7 the Government of their fiduciary obligation to protect 8 the people of Aazhoodena. Not steal their land; it could 9 never be stolen, like what happened. 10 Q: And was that at the time of this -- 11 the meeting when this was discuss, was Mr. Maynard T. 12 George the chief at the time, one (1) of the leaders? 13 A: There was no chief. 14 Q: There was no chief? 15 A: No. There were Elders. 16 Q: Okay. And when did you learn that 17 people had moved onto the Army Camp in 1993? 18 A: I believe it was May 6th, '93. 19 Q: And did you learn on that day? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you -- when did you move onto 22 the Army Camp? 23 A: That day. 24 Q: And where did -- did you make -- 25 where did -- did you make a camp on the Army Camp?
1851 A: We had a family plot. 2 Q: And can you -- on Exhibit P-40, can 3 you just point out the area that the family plot was at? 4 A: Where my dad used to live when he was 5 a kid. 6 Q: And you're pointing to an area near 7 the -- I think it's the Sten range; is that on that map? 8 Is that approximately the area -- 9 A: Yeah. It's the west side of the 10 grenade range. 11 Q: Pardon me? The west side of the 12 grenade range? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And how many members of your -- did 15 other members of your family move onto the Army Camp at 16 the same time? 17 A: Every -- everybody that could spend 18 time would spend time there. Not everybody could just 19 move on, like, it -- but speaking for myself, I tried to 20 spend as much time as possible, show my support, like I 21 always done. And other family's members done the same. 22 Q: So that you would camp at the -- on 23 the ranges when you could but you were principally living 24 at Kettle Point? 25 A: Yes.
1861 Q: And going back and forth? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the -- did you camp principally 4 on the weekends; would that be fair to say? 5 A: No. 6 Q: So it would be whenever you could 7 during the week? 8 A: Whenever I could. 9 Q: Okay. And the -- when you were there 10 in the summer of 1993, did you observe helicopters at the 11 -- over the Army Camp? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And can you tell us what you 14 observed? 15 A: They would fly right down, buzz the 16 camps, as low as they could. 17 Q: And the camps where people were 18 living along Highway 21? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And what, if anything, did the people 21 who were living along -- in -- Highway 21, inside the 22 Camp, do? 23 A: We would start shining spotlights on 24 them. And once we started that, they never -- they -- 25 they wouldn't come as close anymore because we knew it
1871 would bugger up their night vision. 2 Q: And were you in the Camp -- you heard 3 of an -- of a helicopter incident with a helicopter being 4 shot? 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Were you there when that happened? 7 A: I don't recall. I really can't say. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: The one thing I do remember about 10 that is everybody found out about it on the news the next 11 day. 12 Q: You found out about it on the news 13 the next day? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And when you were -- in the period 16 1994 and 1995, prior to July 29th, 1995, did you camp 17 from time to time on the -- the ranges? Did you go back 18 and forth to the -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And did you camp in 1994 and 1995 in 21 the same area? 22 A: We -- like the only spot that we did 23 camp out was like the -- it was the family. Like my 24 dad's family would -- everybody would show up from time 25 to time in the same spot, right there. And then later on
1881 right about -- right about there. 2 Q: You're pointing to an area in the 3 northern part of the Army camp along -- just south of the 4 road that runs east from Matheson Drive? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And -- and so, in 1994, did you camp 7 there? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And in 1995 as well? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did other members of your family 12 camp there as well? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the -- in 1993 and 1994 and up to 15 July 29th, 1995, did you observe people hunting on the 16 Army camp lands? 17 A: During hunting season. 18 Q: And did you hunt? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And at the time you were under a 21 firearms ban, is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And why did you hunt? 24 A: They never had no right to take it 25 away from me to begin with. It was a -- like I never --
1891 to hunt I never really needed to use a gun. All I had to 2 was be a driver, you know, on the hunting parties. 3 Q: And is that what you did? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: As a -- you acted as a driver? 6 A: Well, I had to when were out coon 7 hunting, too. Like I could never -- couldn't use the 8 gun. 9 Q: So that -- 10 A: I did all the -- I did all the back 11 breaking work, like running down the coons and then I'd 12 do all the cleaning and the pellets and stuff. 13 Q: So that during the period of time, I 14 guess my question was a little too broad, you would go 15 hunting but you didn't use a firearm? 16 A: No, no I can't say, like -- I tried 17 my hardest not to. But, you know, it was wrong of them 18 to do that to me. 19 Q: But you may have. The ban was up in 20 1996? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you did acquire a Firearms' 23 Acquisition Certificate again? 24 A: I could get it. I just never applied 25 for it. I got re-certified to buy guns again, as well as
1901 handguns. 2 Q: Okay. And the -- when you were at 3 the Army Camp you assisted in hunting parties in 1993? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And 1994? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And in 1995, prior to July 29th? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And when did you learn that -- about 10 the move from the ranges into the built-up area of the 11 Army camp? 12 A: Like I said, I was just putting as 13 much time as I can, you know, doing my part and then I 14 just showed up and I wasn't -- I wasn't part of the group 15 that took over the Base. 16 Q: Did you -- when did you learn that 17 the group had taken over the Base, Mr. Cloud? 18 A: The same day. 19 Q: The same day? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Later the same day? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And who did you learn that from? Do 24 you recall? 25 A: I -- my mom and dad, actually.
1911 Q: And had your -- your parents gone 2 down to the built-up area, the Base? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I understand that your father -- 5 your parents lived at the Base for some period of time. 6 A: My father still lives there. 7 Q: Your father still lives there? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: But your parents both lived there for 10 some period of time and then -- 11 A: Yes, yes. 12 Q: Your mother lives now in Kettle 13 Point? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did you participate in any 16 discussions or meetings with respect to the Provincial 17 Park, and the takeover the Provincial Park, that you can 18 recall? It's only lawyers who ask these questions. 19 A: I can't recall. 20 Q: Lawyers ask these questions nine (9) 21 years later, Mr. Cloud. The -- can you tell us how you 22 learned about the takeover of the Provincial Park? 23 A: Well I -- I do know that, like, what 24 made it more shocking is I remember Glenny was telling me 25 they got -- that Les guy give him the keys. They were --
1921 like they were negotiating with them guys and they, you 2 know, they were told ahead of time that, you know, they 3 were going to take back the heart of Stoney Point because 4 of the burial ground, sacred burial ground after all the 5 campers were gone. And that was -- I know that. 6 Q: When did Mr. -- Glenny you're 7 referring to Mr. Glenn George? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And when did Mr. Glenn George tell 10 you this, Mr. Cloud? Was it after the death of Dudley 11 George or before? 12 A: It was before. 13 Q: Okay. And can you tell us, was it 14 after September 4th or before September 4th? September 15 4th being the day of the takeover. 16 A: It was about three (3) days before I 17 believe. 18 Q: Before September 4th? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And can you tell us what -- you can 21 recall -- 22 A: Like it's to the best of my 23 recollection, I know it was ahead of time but I'm not -- 24 like I can't give you a for certain day. Like it could 25 have been just a couple days ahead of time but I do know
1931 they said that they negotiated with the guy and it was a 2 good -- they were happy, they were -- the guys were in a 3 good mood. And saying that it went well and they got the 4 keys handed to them. 5 Q: And this was before the takeover or? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And when did you first go into the 8 Provincial Park? 9 A: The day of the takeover. 10 Q: Pardon me? 11 A: The same day. 12 Q: And would -- did you go into the 13 Provincial Park with the first group? 14 A: No. I just showed up again like I 15 usually do. 16 Q: And when you went into the Park, who 17 did you go in with? 18 A: I was by myself. 19 Q: And when you went into the Park on 20 the evening of September 4th, was it light out or was it 21 dark, do you recall? 22 A: September 4th? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: At the Park? 25 Q: Yes.
1941 A: I believe it was pretty lit. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: I believe there was lights, yes. 4 Q: And what did you do when -- how did 5 you get into the Park? Which route did you take into the 6 Park? 7 A: I went in the front gate at Stoney 8 Point and went down to the -- to the Park from Stoney 9 Point. 10 Q: And did you go down -- into the Park 11 past the maintenance building? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And where did you go once you got 14 into the Park? 15 A: All I know my mom and them had a 16 bonfire down there. Mom and Joanne and the kids. 17 Q: And can you tell us in what part of 18 the Park your mother and -- Joanne is your sister? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And her children had the bonfire? 21 A: Yes. They actually had them on both 22 sides of the Park, like, different days. 23 Q: So if we could just take -- on 24 September 4th when you first went into the Park where the 25 bonfire was that your mother and --
1951 A: I believe it was in here somewhere. 2 Q: Towards the eastern boundary of the 3 Park on the -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- north side towards the lake? Is 6 that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And did you go to the other 9 side of the Park on September 4th, on the west side, 10 towards -- by the Park store? 11 A: Yes. I went all around there, but I 12 -- there was never that many people there, really. 13 Because that's -- most of the time, I hung around as long 14 as I could and sometimes there was nobody there. 15 Q: And did you have, on September 4th, 16 any interactions, any involvement with the Ontario 17 Provincial Police? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And did you observe anyone having any 20 involvement with the Ontario Provincial Police? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And how long did you stay at the Park 23 on September 4th? 24 A: Probably not long, then I went back 25 into Stoney and then probably took off again.
1961 Q: Went back to Kettle Point? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And on September 5th, did you go to 4 the Provincial Park? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And could you recall when you went to 7 the Provincial Park? 8 A: I believe it was in the afternoon. 9 Q: And when you went to the Provin -- 10 Provincial Park in the afternoon of September 5th -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- did you -- how did you get there? 13 Through the -- through Stoney Point? 14 A: Yes. I went through -- I went 15 through Stoney Point. However, that time I was checked 16 out by police, and I noticed there was a lot more police 17 around. 18 Q: More police on September 4th than on 19 -- I mean September 5th than on September 4th? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: I went through the main gate, down 23 here. 24 Q: You're pointing to P -- Exhibit P-40, 25 Army Camp Road. You say there was a police officer on
1971 Army Camp Road, just north of Highway 21? I'm just 2 trying to place where the police officer was, Mr. Cloud? 3 A: There -- there was a number of them. 4 Q: A number of police officers? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: How many police officers were there? 7 A: Ten (10). 8 Q: Ten (10). But they were on Army Camp 9 Road between -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- Highway 21 and the entrance to the 12 Army Camp? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what, if anything, happened with 15 the police officers? They stopped you? 16 A: Oh, well, they -- yeah, they wanted 17 to see proof of insurance and licence and all that, and 18 that was it. 19 Q: That's all they asked for? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And did they ask where you were 22 going? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: They knew where I was going.
1981 Q: How do you know that? 2 A: They knew. They knew where I was 3 going. 4 Q: And did -- how long did you spend in 5 the Provincial Park on September 5th? 6 A: Probably not long. I can't remember, 7 really. 8 Q: Okay. And were you in the Provincial 9 Park -- when you went to the Provincial Park, can you 10 recall which part of the Park you went to? Did your 11 family have -- 12 A: What day are you talking about? 13 Q: On September 5th, sir -- 14 A: I -- 15 Q: -- on the second day? 16 A: -- I can't remember. 17 Q: Okay. And did your -- was your 18 mother and your sister and other siblings in the Park on 19 the second day? 20 A: I know they were there every day, 21 yeah. 22 Q: And did they have a fire the second 23 day? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you visit them in the Park,
1991 that you can recall? 2 A: I can't recall. 3 Q: And did you have any -- were you in 4 the Provincial Park when picnic tables were being taken 5 out into the sandy parking lot to the west side of the 6 Park? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And other than the interaction with 9 the police officers on Army Camp Road, when you went into 10 the Army Camp, did you have any interaction with the 11 Ontario Provincial Police on September 5th? 12 A: Just one (1) of the guys, like I 13 said, I can't remember... 14 Q: I'm actually -- actually asking if 15 you had any -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: NO. 19 Q: Then, if we could go to September 20 6th, Mr. Cloud, and perhaps before we go there, it might 21 be a good time to have a short break, Commissioner? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 23 to go until five o'clock tonight? 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Until five o'clock 25 today.
2001 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 Let's take a short break then. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps ten (10) 4 minutes, sir? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 6 minutes, fine. 7 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 8 Inquiry will recess for ten (10) minutes. 9 10 --- Upon adjourning at 3:55 p.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 4:05 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed. Please be seated. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: On September 6th, 1995, Mr. Cloud, 19 the day that Mr. Dudley George was killed, did you go to 20 the Army Camp and the Provincial Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And, can you tell me when you went to 23 the Army Camp and the Provincial Park? 24 A: I was there -- actually I was there 25 early in the day, --
2011 Q: Yes? 2 A: -- there was lots of police, I did my 3 little usual checking-in with everybody else and I left. 4 Q: And when -- if I could stop you, you 5 -- there were police on Army Camp Road between Highway 21 6 and the -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- and the entrance to the Army Camp? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And were there other police around 11 that you saw? 12 A: I didn't really notice, but I did 13 notice that there was a -- seemed to be more, and there 14 was a group of police actually, and they were all wearing 15 full body armour. 16 Q: And where was this, Mr. Cloud? 17 A: They were right at the gate. 18 Q: And what time was this? 19 A: It was early, early afternoon, I 20 believe. 21 Q: And when you say, full body armour, 22 what do you mean by that? 23 A: Well they -- they had their -- it 24 looked like some kind of a -- like where -- there was 25 police with their regular vests and stuff, but these guys
2021 had full body armour, like, that's what it looked like 2 anyway. Like, it looked like a -- well it was like the 3 body armour for their -- for their vest was the same 4 going all the way down to their legs. 5 Q: Well, were they in regular uniforms, 6 or did they have -- 7 A: They were, like, a grey type uniform. 8 Q: And -- okay. Can you give us any 9 more description about -- other than it was a grey type 10 uniform? 11 A: It had "police" on it. I think it 12 was -- I think it was what they called the TRUE team. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: Or I know that's what it was, the 15 TRUE team. 16 Q: And where did you see these police 17 officers? 18 A: Up near the gate. 19 Q: And were they separate and apart from 20 the police officers that were checking the cars? 21 A: They were -- well, they were kind of 22 hanging out together, yeah. 23 Q: But there were some police officers 24 dressed in normal -- 25 A: Yes.
2031 Q: -- gear -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- and it was those -- the police 4 officers dressed in the normal uniforms that stopped and 5 asked you -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Did they -- did they stop you on -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- September -- 10 A: I already had my papers together, you 11 know. 12 Q: And they asked you for the same 13 thing? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And once you showed them your 16 driver's licence and your -- your registration and 17 insurance, they simply let you go through? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And other than that group of police 20 officers by Highway 21 and the entrance to the Army camp 21 did you observe any other police officers during the day 22 on September 6th? 23 A: I can't recall. 24 Q: And when you went to the Army camp 25 and then the Park during the day, how long were you
2041 there, sir? 2 A: Maybe an hour. 3 Q: An hour? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And what did you do when you went to 6 the Park? 7 A: I really can't recall. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: Just visiting. 10 Q: Just visiting? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And do you -- do you recall what the 13 atmosphere was like in the Park on September 6th? 14 A: It was good. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: It was -- it was pleasant. Everybody 17 seemed to be in a cheery mood. 18 Q: And can you tell us -- give us an 19 idea of how many people were in the Park? Were there ... 20 A: I couldn't give you a -- I really 21 don't know because I -- I believe at that time I just 22 swung around to one section of the -- one section of the 23 Park, just up in that area. 24 Q: And "that area" is the area to the 25 east of the pump house and the reservoir?
2051 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I've got to have it -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Pardon me? 6 A: Yeah, in that area. I just went in 7 there. I didn't -- like, anyway, I was there and gone, 8 put it that way. 9 Q: And the -- did you -- were there 10 women and children in the Park? 11 A: Yes, that's about -- that was mainly 12 women and children. 13 Q: Okay. And did you return to the Park 14 later in the day? 15 A: No. 16 Q: On September 6th? 17 A: I returned that night. 18 Q: That night? And can you tell us 19 about that, what happened? How did you get there? 20 A: Well, my -- I was actually -- it was 21 a -- I just got done. I was watching some TV and I was 22 chilling out. I cooked myself a couple of hotdogs and I 23 was just chilling out, having really -- just relaxing 24 evening. 25 And then my mother come in all upset. She
2061 said she wanted me to go and get -- look for Little Joe. 2 She was scared and I said, Why, what are you scared? And 3 she said because there was lots of police around and they 4 were having a -- a bonfire and they were roasting weiners 5 and marshmallows, her and Joanne and the kids and she 6 said she had a bad feeling. She wanted to go and look 7 for Joey -- 8 Q: And -- 9 A: -- and wanted me to go. 10 Q: Okay. And when you say your mother 11 had a large bonfire and was roasting -- 12 A: I don't know where it was. 13 Q: Was it -- 14 A: She just told me. 15 Q: Was it in the Park, though? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. Somewhere in the Park. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And so she -- your -- was your 20 brother Joseph in the Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: According to my mother. 24 Q: Okay. So, she -- 25 A: She come and got me 'cause she wanted
2071 me to go with her, 'cause she was already too scared to 2 go back on her own for the first time ever. She wanted 3 me to -- she wouldn't go without me and she wanted to go 4 and look for our little baby brother. 5 Q: And so you went with your mother? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what happened? 8 A: Well, as soon as we got on Highway 21 9 and Army Camp Road, there was heavily armed police right 10 on the highway. They wouldn't even let us turn. They 11 had guns out and said if we motioned to even go that way, 12 they were going to arrest us right on the spot. 13 Q: And so you were -- you wanted to turn 14 off Highway 21 onto Army Camp Road and go -- proceed 15 north? 16 A: We wanted to go into Stoney Point but 17 they wouldn't -- that's what they told us. 18 Q: And was it light out or dark out at 19 this -- 20 A: Dark. 21 Q: It was dark at this time? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Can you -- do you know what time it 24 might have been? 25 A: 9:00 or 10:00.
2081 Q: And so what then happened? The 2 police officers advised you you could not go on Army Camp 3 Road; what did you then do? 4 A: Well, we went up -- we went down 5 Highway 21. We were coming down Highway 21 and we got 6 about to a place we refer to as Uncle Cliff's Cabin. 7 He had a little gate there and my mom, she 8 was driving her blue Cavalier, she just stopped right in 9 the middle of the highway when she jumped out and she 10 said, Go home, Mike, I'm going to get -- I'm going to get 11 Little Joe; you know, like I was going to go home. 12 And she took right off and she -- little 13 old lady, she went crawling underneath a fence. And that 14 was the last time I seen her for a while. And I took 15 off, I went right down to Outer Drive. Outer Drive I 16 believe is that highway there. 17 Q: Outer Drive is on the eastern side 18 of -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- the Army Camp? 21 A: Yes. And I knew where there was an 22 opening in the fence. All I had to do was unhook the -- 23 the fence and pull it aside, and I drove in that way. I 24 drove into Stoney Point. And then I come up as fast as I 25 could, taking all the roads, zip in around here --
2091 actually, around here. And I -- 2 Q: Take the road is a little to the 3 left -- 4 A: Yeah. Anyway, I come up here, right 5 by -- by Moe George's Hill (phonetic), and I come all the 6 way back around the ranges, and I went right to Uncle 7 Cliff's Cabin. 8 Q: And I think Uncle Cliff's Cabin is a 9 little bit farther to the west? 10 A: Yeah. Over here actually. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: It's right about there, actually. I 13 think that's his cabin marked right there. 14 Q: And it's along -- on the west side of 15 the Army Camp -- 16 A: South -- southwest side -- 17 Q: South. 18 A: -- is where it is. 19 Q: And it's -- you're pointing to the 20 road -- and I'm simply doing this, Mr. Cloud, for the 21 record -- to the west of the road that has "Magazine" at 22 the end of it; is that correct? It's that area to the 23 left of that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And so what did you do then?
2101 A: I pulled in to Cliff's and Cliff was 2 talking to Glenny, Glenny had his big dump trunk there. 3 Q: And Glenny is Glenn George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And I -- I -- at first I asked if 7 they seen my mom or whatever, I can't really remember, 8 because I was so excited and I knew something bad was 9 going to happen. 10 I just told Glenny, I says, We better go 11 to the Park because there's serious shit's going to 12 happen. I said, They pulled guns on us and they were 13 going to arrest us and we tried to come in. 14 And I forget what he said, but I -- I took 15 off. 16 Q: So you took off in your mother's car? 17 A: Yes. I went straight -- straight 18 down, I went right to the Park. 19 Q: And you went to the Park along the 20 road that runs parallel with Army Camp -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- Road? 23 A: I went right through the base. First 24 I stopped at the building where my mom and dad were 25 staying; there was nobody there. So I went all the way
2111 down. I was doing probably sixty-five (65), seventy (70) 2 miles an hour. Come all the way down. I went through -- 3 I went by the Park maintenance building and I went right 4 -- right there, there, where there was a -- I went 5 zipping right back there. 6 Q: Near the Park store? 7 A: Yeah. And Kokomo was there, he come 8 up and he say, Help up, help us. 9 Q: And that Kokomo is Clayton George? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: And I just parked the car and I start 13 walking and when I was walking I could just, you know, 14 just hear the -- hear the yelling. And all I could see 15 was police, everywhere. They were everywhere. 16 I don't know where they came from. There 17 were so many of them and shields and guys were lined up. 18 A small group of guys were lined up about 19 every ten (10) feet maybe fifteen (15) feet along the 20 fence. Maybe a dozen guys at most. Yelling back and 21 forth and them guys were -- a lot of them -- whoever 22 those cops were, a lot of them were -- were pretty 23 childish. They way they were talking, the way they were 24 swearing, you know. 25 And so there was swearing going on on both
2121 sides too. And all -- but a lot of our guys kept 2 reminding them that we have rights, we have Native 3 rights, this is a burial ground and they were told over 4 and over they had no right to be there. 5 Q: Okay. Let's stop for a moment. When 6 you parked your car, did you -- can you point on this 7 map, "Welcome to Ipperwash", which is Exhibit -- 8 A: Where's the Park building? 9 Q: P-70 The Park store is not quite 10 accurately shown on this but it's in the area where the 11 cursor is, Mr. Cloud. In that area there. And Lake 12 Huron's to the north on this map. 13 A: Yeah. I would probably say I parked 14 the car right in here somewhere. 15 Q: On the north side of the -- in the 16 parking area to the north of the Park store? 17 A: Well, I parked it right in that area. 18 Q: Okay. And when you arrived, the 19 police officers were in the sandy parking lot, is that 20 correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell us as you walked 23 towards them, how -- how were the police officers 24 dressed? 25 A: Full riot gear.
2131 Q: And can you tell us what you mean by 2 that? 3 A: Helmets, shields, full body armour. 4 Q: And were they carrying anything? 5 A: Clubs. 6 Q: And the -- can you tell us as you 7 approach the fence, were the police on the inside of the 8 fence or on the outside of the fence? 9 A: They were on the outside trying to 10 get in so that -- they were going to arrest us all. 11 Q: Okay. The -- when you say they were 12 saying they were going to arrest us all, how do you know 13 that? Just tell us exactly what you recall step by step, 14 Mr. Cloud. 15 A: I remember a couple of them were 16 saying that, but there were also a couple -- a couple of 17 them that were calling us f'ing wagon burners and stuff 18 like that too. So, you know, for cops to be talking like 19 that. You know I just thought that was pretty childish. 20 Q: So that the police officers were 21 lined up in the sandy parking lot, how far away were the 22 police officers from the fence between the Park and the 23 sandy parking lot? 24 A: Four (4) feet. 25 Q: And the occupiers were lined up along
2141 the fence? 2 A: The other side. 3 Q: On the inside of the Park or the 4 outside? 5 A: We were face to face. There was a 6 line of us here and there was a whole shitload of them on 7 this side. All the way along. 8 Q: So that -- 9 A: They outnumbered us ten (10) to one 10 (1) easy. 11 Q: When you say that there was a line of 12 us here, do you mean a line of you on the inside of the-- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- Park along the fence? 15 A: Yes. Yes. 16 Q: Yes. And how many were there -- 17 people were along the fence line -- the occupiers? Can 18 you tell? 19 A: That -- that I could recall, maybe a 20 dozen, that I could recall. But, you know, at the same 21 time like all hell broke loose. 22 And guys start coming in, marching in, 23 it's all like a bunch of Nazis coming in yelling, 24 Shields, shields, they were banging their shields 25 together, coming and then we started scrapping with them
2151 because they were all trying to get over the fence and we 2 weren't going to let them in, so. 3 There was so many of us -- so many, like 4 one guy would cover so much space and every time they 5 tried to come over, we would go and knock them over and 6 every time you knocked them over, they would club you or 7 their buddies would club you and then in just kept going 8 like that. 9 And just a lot of clubbing, back and 10 forth. And then they would back off and then we were 11 finding little stones, anything that we could use to 12 throw back at them to try and make them go away. 13 I reached into the fire once and I grabbed 14 a piece of burning wood and threw it at them because 15 there was too many of them coming at once and it 16 dispersed them, made them run back. 17 Q: And when you arrived at the Park and 18 at the fence, were you there -- when you were there, was 19 there an incident with the dog? 20 A: No. Not -- not while I was there. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: That was before, I believe. 23 Q: And what was the lighting like when 24 you arrived? 25 A: When I arrived, the only lighting I
2161 recall was at -- the burning pic table -- picnic table on 2 a bonfire. 3 Q: And can you -- behind you there's a - 4 - on the drawing of the intersection -- 5 A: Right there. 6 Q: Can you mark on the -- that, with -- 7 there's a black pen. If you could take the large black 8 one and mark where the bonfire was. And could you put a 9 1 beside that, please? 10 And the bon -- was there -- did anyone -- 11 did you observe anyone with spotlights? 12 A: Yeah, I believe one (1) of our -- one 13 (1) vehicle had a spotlight. 14 Q: Okay. Okay. Mr. Cloud, we'll have 15 to -- there's another microphone that we could perhaps 16 give Mr. Cloud. We need to capture you. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Yes, there was one (1), I believe 21 there was one (1) vehicle here with a spotlight. 22 Q: And it was -- you've marked -- could 23 you mark -- put a Number 2 beside that line you've drawn, 24 Mr. Cloud. 25 And when you arrived, was anyone using the
2171 spotlight? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Was the spotlight on and shining 4 towards the Park -- sandy parking lot? 5 A: I only noticed the spotlight a couple 6 of times. 7 Q: But when you noticed it, was it on, 8 sir? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And perhaps, Commissioner, if we 11 could mark this drawing at the next exhibit. I think 12 it's 79. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-79, your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-79: "Stan" Thompson Drawing Sept 17 20/95 marked by the witness 18 Wayne Cloud. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And so that -- you indicated the 22 officers came up to the fence. There was an altercation 23 at the fence, the officers fell back. What then 24 happened, Mr. Cloud? 25 A: Just -- just -- it just the same
2181 thing kept happening. And at one (1) point I heard them 2 saying there's red coming in. I don't know what that 3 meant, but I heard it. They said there's red coming in. 4 And they fell back, so I don't know what that meant. 5 And then they come at us again and every 6 time they would say, shields, you know they would march 7 up, banging their shields. They'd all be yelling shields 8 before they would start fighting with us, you know. 9 I think they probably thought that would 10 scare us but they were invading someone's homeland and 11 they didn't realize what they were doing. 12 Q: When you were there, the -- were the 13 police -- you were there, there was an altercation going 14 on, the police fell back. When the police fell back did 15 any of your group go out into the sandy parking lot 16 before the police came back? 17 A: That wasn't -- that was about after 18 the -- the third clash with police. 19 Q: Okay, what happened when -- 20 A: There was a -- there was a man. His 21 name was Bernard George. 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: But that -- that was just before that 24 happened, Dudley was really trying to tell them police to 25 go home.
2191 Q: And -- 2 A: And they wouldn't listen to him. He 3 was saying, we have native rights here. He was really 4 trying to make them listen and they wouldn't listen. 5 Q: And where were you -- when you went 6 to the fence line, Mr. Cloud, where were you standing? 7 A: I was right -- I was right there. 8 Q: And is that by -- I think it's by the 9 turnstile? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And could you mark with a number 3, 12 where you were standing, Mr. Cloud? And where was Mr. 13 Dudley George standing in relation to you, Mr. Cloud? 14 A: Well, when I -- when he was -- when 15 he was telling those guys, We have rights, and 16 everything, he was right in this area here. 17 Q: Near the -- near the bonfire? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Could you mark a number 4 where -- 20 A: Actually, he was probably, like -- 21 yeah, it was in here. 22 Q: It would be number 4. And so then 23 Mr. George was -- was yelling at the police that you had 24 rights. What happened then? 25 A: Well, like, I really -- I was just
2201 there. I didn't know -- I was kind of in shock, like, I 2 didn't know what to do. And so I just -- basically they 3 forced me to fight them. I was defending myself. And -- 4 Q: You have to speak into the mike, Mr. 5 Cloud. I'm sorry. You have to hold it up a bit, please. 6 A: The police, they forced me to fight 7 them. And they hurt me pretty good, many times, and 8 along with a lot of the other guys. 9 Q: You were hit by the police officers? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And -- 12 A: I was hit many times. 13 Q: And did you have any injuries as a 14 result of the altercation with the police? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Can you tell us about those? 17 A: Well, I was hit in the side of the 18 head, but I was hit many times in my chest. And the only 19 thing I remember about that is on the day of Dudley's 20 funeral my -- my chest was still all yellow and blue, my 21 whole chest area. 22 But getting back to this. After this took 23 place, the yelling, like, that's why I remember it so 24 much because that's one of the last times when there was 25 a lot of yelling about Native rights, trying to get them
2211 to leave. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: And they wouldn't leave, they 4 wouldn't listen. And then Bernard George, he went over 5 there and he jumped this fence. And I know, because of 6 the way we were fighting, like, each guy was holding off 7 a good ten (10), you know, ten (10) to one (1), each guy. 8 When he jumped out -- when he jumped out 9 into the open like that, that fence was -- you know, he 10 lost his cover. And I yelled at him, I says, Bernard, 11 get back, get back now. But he wouldn't -- he wouldn't 12 listen. 13 He went out there thinking that them guys 14 were actually going to show some kind of respect or 15 something, or listen to him; I don't know why. Put his 16 arm up in the air and he identified himself as a Kettle 17 and Stony Point councillor and he went out there and, at 18 that point in time, he decided to walk right out there, I 19 guess. 20 And then a cop come from behind him and 21 clubbed him in the back of the head and he -- I am sure 22 he was probably knocked out before he hit the ground, 23 just by the way he fell. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: So the club that I was using was
2221 about four (4) feet long and I threw it at those -- those 2 fuckers as hard as I could, to try and do something to 3 them. Then I ran back, because there was nothing else I 4 could do, and I jumped the fence. 5 And just as I jumped the fence, that -- 6 the whole gang of them hit the fence. They -- they never 7 got me but when I looked back, they were just -- I don't 8 know why they were doing that to him, he was already 9 clearly knocked out, they had him -- they had him on the 10 ground and they were just a whole bunch of them, they 11 just kept kicking him and clubbing him. 12 You know, I couldn't believe it, for 13 police to be doing that to someone. 14 Q: And can you tell -- can you mark on 15 Exhibit P-79 where Mr. Cecil Bernard George was when he 16 was hit by the police officers, to the best of your 17 recollection? 18 A: Well, to the best of my recollec -- 19 recollection, I believe it was in this area here, right 20 in this area. 21 Q: And can you mark that with a number 22 5, where -- and, did you see Mr. Cecil Bernard George 23 with a club in his hand? 24 A: I did not. All I noticed was his 25 hand up in the air, like, I was too scared to really
2231 notice if he had a club or not. I was trying to tell him 2 to get back. 3 Q: Okay. And what happened, the police 4 came up to the fence, you ran back into the -- into the 5 Park and did you observe Mr. Cecil Bernard George after 6 that? 7 A: Yes. Everybody did. 8 Q: I can only ask you what you observed, 9 Mr. Cloud. 10 A: What I observed -- I observed the 11 same thing as what all the other guys observed. Is them 12 guys were yelling at him and calling him down and 13 clubbing him and kicking him. And there was probably ten 14 (10) of them. They had him completely surrounded. 15 Then a number of the guys were yelling, 16 get the bus, get the bus. Knock then bin out of the way. 17 We're going to have to try and save him. They're going 18 to kill him. 19 Q: And was Mr. Cecil Bernard George 20 still in the same location where number 5 was -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- or had he been moved? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. And where was -- the bus was 25 on the inside of the Park?
2241 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what then happened? 3 A: The bus started and the one thing I 4 can remember is the gears. I can remember the gears were 5 jamming and finally when it did come along, it was moving 6 really slow and there was a garbage bin, I believe, here. 7 Q: Can you mark on Exhibit P-79 where 8 the garbage bin was? 9 A: Right here. Exhibit 6, you mean? 10 Q: Yeah and mark it number 6. Just draw 11 a little square where the garbage bin was. 12 A: Okay. It was pretty well where this 13 gate was. 14 Q: It was near the gate into the Park, 15 yes. And did you mark it with -- could you put a number 16 6 beside that, Mr. Cloud? 17 A: Yes. Well, anyway the only -- like 18 there was a garbage bin there and that was the only thing 19 blocking -- that was like a protector too. 20 Q: So what happened with the bus? 21 A: I'm just trying to remember if this 22 is the right spot here. 23 Q: The spot where you have it is where 24 the gate is located there. 25 A: Okay. Well there was a garbage bin
2251 there and then the bus just -- basically if you ask me, 2 it was just idling. When it finally did get into gear it 3 start idling and it pushed it away. It just pushed it -- 4 the bus just kept going and kind of pushed it away. 5 Q: So it pushed the -- the bin out of 6 the way and the bus went where? 7 A: It made an opening for everybody to 8 walk through. And the bus just kept -- just kept idling 9 along. It only went -- I was -- I was walking behind the 10 bus, I don't know why but I was walking behind the bus, 11 all the guys were at the fence line, everybody start 12 coming out. 13 These guys were starting to drag them away 14 then. They were dragging them this way and a few of them 15 were -- they were still clubbing them. 16 Q: They were moving Mr. Cecil Bernard 17 George to the west? 18 A: Yeah. I don't know why they were 19 still hitting him, but they were dragging him anyway. 20 And then the bus went out -- went out a ways and I 21 stopped. I stopped a few feet behind the bus and I was 22 standing there and then the car come along. The car -- a 23 car come out behind the bus and then the car was idling 24 along at the same speed. And the guys were yelling at 25 them police to let him go and stop it. They wouldn't
2261 listen. 2 And that car went idling along towards 3 those cops to try and break up what they were doing to 4 him. And then I was watching and as at was -- just about 5 when the car was just getting to all those police there, 6 it dispersed them I know that, but at the same -- almost 7 at the same second, the shooting started. 8 Q: And the -- before we get to the 9 shooting, can you mark with the next number, I think it's 10 7, where the -- the farthest point of the bus and then 11 with 8 the farthest point of the car that you observed? 12 Did the bus get to the paved road, Mr. Cloud? Or could 13 you see? 14 A: Just barely. Just barely, if that, 15 before it like -- 16 Q: You have to speak into the mike, Mr. 17 Cloud. 18 A: Like, before the shooting started, I 19 -- I don't believe it made it to the paved road. 20 Q: Okay, but -- 21 A: What number do you want me to mark 22 this? 23 Q: 7. 24 A: And then? 25 Q: 8.
2271 A: The car. And it -- and it --it 2 didn't hit them cops or -- 3 Q: You have to speak into the -- 4 A: -- or -- 5 Q: Mr. Cloud, you have to speak -- 6 A: It went in to try to break them up. 7 Q: Okay. And then you say the shooting 8 started, can you describe that to us, please? 9 A: Well, the second bullet hit a body. 10 Q: And how do you know that, sir? 11 A: Because I heard it. 12 Q: Okay. And did you know at the time-- 13 A: I didn't know who it hit. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Because right after that, another 16 bullet went right by my ear. Like, I mean, literally 17 right through my hair, right that close to my ear. 18 Q: And what did you do? 19 A: I was terrified. I had to get out of 20 there. 21 Q: You can sit down, Mr. Cloud. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: So that the bullet went by your head
2281 and then what did you do, sir? 2 A: Kind of snapped out of it and started 3 running away. 4 Q: And where did you go to? Back 5 towards the Park? 6 A: If you had that map up there. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Anyway, I start, well I -- I start 11 running back, anyways, as fast as I could go. Everything 12 was getting hit. 13 Q: When you say "everything was getting 14 hit" -- 15 A: Yeah, I heard the garbage bin get 16 hit, I heard trees being hit. 17 Q: Speak into the mike, please, Mr. 18 Cloud. 19 A: There was a large -- there was just a 20 hell of a lot of shooting. It was just unreal. And when 21 I got back to where the car was, I just happened to 22 notice off in the distance there was -- there was three 23 (3) females standing there in a line, and they were so 24 terrified they couldn't move. 25 Q: And were they in the parking lot?
2291 A: Yes. 2 Q: On the north side of the Park store? 3 A: They were -- like I wish you had 4 those combined to make it easier instead of having that. 5 Q: Yeah, is -- 6 A: Is that -- is that the snow fence 7 there? 8 Q: We be -- the boundary, we believe, is 9 along here. It's where the break is, or it's along 10 there. It's difficult, we -- because this is just a -- a 11 scale map, Mr. -- Mr. Cloud. 12 But they were on the Park side of the 13 fence? 14 A: Yes, they were just behind. I don't 15 know how they never got hit. They were so lucky. But, 16 you know, the bullets -- you could just hear them, just 17 when I ran towards them, that -- you know, I was running 18 right through the -- right through, like. 19 That's all I could hear was bullets going 20 by everywhere. And I was yelling at them. I said -- I 21 said, let's go, fucking let's go. And -- and they were - 22 - they just wouldn't move. 23 And I was -- I thought -- I fucking just 24 ran over there and I grabbed -- I grabbed the one girl 25 and I says, move it now, move it now. And I -- I had to
2301 do it to all three (3) of them and that -- that one -- 2 that one woman, she was nine (9) months' pregnant and she 3 was crying and couldn't move. 4 So I had to grab -- grab them all. I 5 says, run towards the car. Fuck. That was pretty scary 6 and we ran towards the car and we got in the car and -- 7 and I start making a beeline out of there and don't ask 8 me how, fuck -- it was just grace of God or something, 9 but I -- in my rear view mirror, when I was leaving and 10 on my way out, I hit the brakes because I seen somebody 11 running behind the car and it was my little baby brother. 12 I spotted him in the dark, because of the 13 -- the bonfire that was behind us and I just happened to 14 see him. I noticed the way he was running and I -- I 15 just knew that was him, 'cause we were in a little 16 Cavalier, and he ran up to the car and could you believe, 17 of all things, he tells me: "The car is full, I can't 18 get in". 19 I just said: "Jump on their fuckin' legs 20 now," as hard as I could, and when he got in, those 21 girls, they literally pulled him in and I floored it. 22 And then, I wanted to -- I was going to come back, I was 23 going to come back on -- right down this main road here. 24 But they were saying, Don't go that way, 25 don't go that way, we're going to be right in the line of
2311 fire. 2 So I start heading the other way. I start 3 heading towards the bayous. I start heading towards 4 bayous, and there was a car coming and it -- and it was 5 Terry Lipp (phonetic) and he stopped right there, and 6 then -- 7 Q: And then at -- near the intersection 8 of -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- the road on the inside of the Army 11 Camp and Matheson Drive? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: Yeah. He stopped right there and 15 then I stopped right there. And then I told him what had 16 happened and at first he didn't believe it. And then I - 17 - and then you could actually hear a few more shots. And 18 then he said he was heading up to the front and he turned 19 around and he took off this way. 20 And then my little brother, he jumped out. 21 I says, Where are you going? and he goes, I got to get my 22 truck. And him and his buddies, he must have had his 23 truck parked right about there. I didn't want to let him 24 go but, he swore to me that he would come back this way, 25 so I let him go.
2321 And then we come up here all the way 2 around, to far as we could, to get back to the main Base 3 up here, where everybody was. 4 Q: So you went -- you went on the road 5 that's shown just below six hundred (600), the elevation 6 six hundred (600) on Exhibit P-40, east towards the 7 Lakes, and followed inland, the interior roads back to 8 the built-up area of the Army Camp? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And when you were at -- on this -- in 11 the Park, in the confrontation with the police, were 12 there -- did you observe any weapons, excuse me, did you 13 observe any firearms with the occupiers? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Had you observed any firearms in the 16 Park when you were there on the three (3) days that you 17 were there? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And were other occupiers -- did you 20 observe other occupiers with clubs and sticks and -- 21 A: Only when we were fighting. 22 Q: When you were fighting? 23 A: Nobody had nothing. We were just 24 basically running around. We started with nothing, 25 running around looking for sticks and stones.
2331 Q: And, can you tell me, how long do you 2 think the -- that you were there along the fence line 3 between the Park and the sandy parking lot? 4 A: It was just like a major house fire, 5 it seemed like forever. 6 Q: And I appreciate that it seemed like 7 forever, but do you know how long it took? 8 A: I couldn't even tell you, really. 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: It just -- I couldn't tell you, I 11 don't -- don't know how long. 12 Q: Okay. I -- 13 A: It just seemed like, I don't know, 14 maybe -- it seemed like -- like an hour anyway, for sure. 15 Q: And when you got back to the built-up 16 area of the Army Camp, where did you go? 17 A: I went to the gate. 18 Q: And what was happening -- the gate, 19 the main gate? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what was happening at the main 22 gate? 23 A: People were crying. 24 Q: And the -- who was there at the main 25 gate when you were there?
2341 A: Well, most of us, most of the Stoney 2 Pointers were back, everybody was back up there. 3 Q: From the Park? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And did -- was Mr. Dudley George 6 there when you got to the gate? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And do you know what happened to him? 9 A: I just know that his brother and his 10 sister, they took him, that's what I was told, and that 11 he was hit real bad. 12 Q: And you were told that -- his brother 13 would have been Mr. Pierre George? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And his sister, Ms. -- Ms. Carolyn 16 George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that he was hit? Then what 19 happened? Was Mr. Nicholas -- 20 A: I was just told that he was hit 21 really bad and that's all I know on that. 22 Q: And then what did you do? Was Mr. 23 Nicholas Cottrelle there, when you were there? 24 A: Shortly after that, a vehicle pulled 25 up and then there was -- he was just a kid. It was
2351 Judas' little boy at the time, he's not so -- 2 Q: And Judas is -- is Robert George? 3 A: Yes. His name is Nicholas Cottrelle, 4 everybody calls him Ugga. He's not a kid anymore but at 5 the time he just looked like a kid. And his dad was 6 crying and -- and I went up to the car and I says, You 7 all right, man? Are you all right, are you hit? And he 8 just looked at me and he had tear coming out his eye and 9 he was pointing at his stomach. He said he was hit. 10 And I -- I went up and I was yelling for 11 the ambulance, I says, We need an ambulance, we need an 12 ambulance, there's a kid over here and he's shot. And -- 13 and at least two (2) or three (3) cops yelled back, Those 14 ambulances are only for us guys, they're not for yous. 15 Q: And then what happened? 16 A: I can't remember. Shortly after that 17 I went to see if I was shot, because I was in hell of a 18 lot of pain. I didn't know if I was hit or not. I went 19 to get my brother and -- and somebody else to check me 20 out, but I couldn't find any bullet holes, so at least I 21 didn't get shot. 22 Q: And then what happened? Did you stay 23 overnight at -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- Stoney Point?
2361 A: No. At the time I had -- I had a -- 2 a whole different -- like, I had a girlfriend and a 3 couple kids, and -- and I knew they'd be worried. And I 4 did what I always did, I just showed up, did my support 5 and took off, went home. And I went on foot. 6 Q: And so you went -- you walked back 7 from Stoney Point to Kettle Point? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And how did you get back? Did you 10 walk? 11 A: I just used one (1) of my old hunting 12 trails. 13 Q: And was that along Highway 21 or some 14 other area? 15 A: No. It wasn't along Highway 21. I 16 wanted to get home, not get killed. 17 Q: Was it north of Highway 21 or south 18 of Highway 21? 19 A: South. 20 Q: And so you walked home. Did you come 21 into contact with any Ontario Provincial Police officers 22 on your way back to Kettle Point? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And when you got to Kettle Point, 25 what did you do then?
2371 A: I just -- I was in a daze. I -- and 2 I know I was really thirsty and my legs were really sore, 3 my chest was really sore. And -- and I -- I just wanted 4 to get home and -- and tell them that I was all right. 5 And then I was just about there, I was 6 only a quarter mile away and then I seen my Aunt Betty 7 Thomas' light was on, and I thought that was kind of odd; 8 because I didn't even know what time it was. And I 9 walked by this -- this big buildup and I just 10 automatically assumed it was more police, so I didn't 11 even go near it. 12 Q: And the big buildup was where? 13 A: At Highway 21. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: And the mall. 16 Q: Near the mall? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yes? And your Aunt Betty Thomas' 19 house is on Kettle Point? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: It's on the west side of the road 22 that leads from Highway 21 to -- up towards the lake? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And on the -- to the west of that 25 road?
2381 A: Yes. 2 Q: And so did you stop at your aunt 3 Betty Thomas' house? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And can you tell us what happened 6 there? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Is that when you learned of the death 11 of Mr. George? 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Would you like to have a short break, 15 Mr. Cloud? Perhaps we could just have a short break. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 17 okay, Mr. Cloud? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll take perhaps a 19 five (5) minute break, sir. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for five (5) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 4:53 p.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 5:02 p.m. 25
2391 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed, please be seated. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 Are you all right to continue now, Mr. Cloud, do you 5 think? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Mr. Cloud, you stopped at your aunt 11 Betty Thomas' house and can you tell us what happened? 12 A: I just thought it was unusual for her 13 to be up like that and I -- I don't even know why I 14 didn't really like -- I -- I seen all those people but I 15 did see police, too, so I just figured they were all 16 police. 17 And then when I went in and seen my aunt, 18 she said that my brothers were looking for me and that 19 Dudley had died. He was killed by police. And there 20 might be other people that were killed. 21 So, in -- instead of going home I -- I 22 went -- she said that my brothers were up on the Highway, 23 they were making a big fire and -- so I went to see my 24 brothers. And she took me over there and -- and I went 25 back and then there was police, all right, but they were
2401 -- they were Anishnaabek police and they were right 2 against the mall and they were -- they were watching 3 everybody and -- my brothers that were they -- they come 4 running up to me and they said they knew. 5 All my -- my brother Len and Blaine, they 6 said they were going to make a great big, huge fire for 7 me so I could see where to go. And there -- and they 8 built a big, huge fire right on the highway because they 9 all had known that Dudley had been murdered. 10 And they were using railroad ties, 11 anything they could -- they could do to make as huge as 12 fire as possible because everyone was angry. Everyone 13 was angry and upset and sad. 14 And then I think -- well, I start missing 15 time after that because I was hurt pretty good. I mean I 16 was really hurt good. And I never had no sleep. 17 I was there and the next thing I know I 18 can remember, my next flash is I was -- I was in a 19 vehicle with a bunch of people and then we were heading 20 toward -- we were going back to Stoney because they said 21 -- a lot of people around in the group said that the 22 police were going to try and kill everybody and -- and 23 all the people were really mad and said they're not going 24 to let that happen. 25 And then there was other people trying to
2411 get them -- the group to stop and then finally, Norm 2 Shawnoo said we can't -- we're not going to let that 3 happen. We -- we're going to go now. And then he yelled 4 up in the air, everybody, let's move. 5 And then people were -- there was a whole 6 bunch of cars and people were walking and -- and then 7 there was still a few people that were running around 8 saying, don't go anywhere, don't go anywhere. And 9 everybody start going. 10 So we were going down the highway and I 11 don't even know what time it was or -- or anything and 12 then we start going back to Stoney Point and then 13 somewhere along -- somewhere on the way down I -- I ran 14 into my -- my girlfriend at the time. And she was all 15 upset. She was trying to find me and -- and then -- so 16 we both start going down there. 17 We got to Stoney and everybody, like, 18 there was road blocks. Actually, the first police road 19 block was at Ravenswood and they come running out, stop, 20 stop. And then Norm was driving in front and he almost 21 ran over two (2) -- two (2) police officers cause they 22 had to jump out of the way because he wouldn't stop. 23 And then it was kind of a slow moving 24 group. And it kept going and then the other road blocks 25 that were built along there, they just start moving --
2421 stepping aside, 'cause hey knew that the people weren't 2 going to stop. 3 And when we got to the gate, everybody was 4 crying and happy to see everybody coming because they 5 were trapped, they didn't know -- we didn't know if the 6 Police, like we didn't know they already killed -- they 7 already murdered Dudley. Like we knew that. And the 8 people inside they didn't know if they were going to be 9 killed too. 10 But when everybody showed up and there was 11 -- I believe there was reporters in the group, they knew 12 that they were safe. We went right straight down to 13 where the battle was where we had that battle and that's 14 the last thing I remember until the day of Dudley's 15 funeral. 16 And that's when I can -- everything after 17 that I couldn't remember anything until the day of 18 Dudley's funeral. And that's it. 19 Q: And do you remember going down or 20 whether you went down to the Ministry of Natural 21 Resources' parking lot on East Parkway Drive? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And so -- do you remember getting to 24 the Park on September 7th but nothing after that until 25 Mr. George's funeral?
2431 A: Yes. 2 Q: And can you recall -- if I just take 3 you back for a moment, was it still dark when you got 4 back to Kettle Point by your aunt's -- your aunt's house? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And was it dark when the bonfire was 7 built on Highway 21? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the -- do you recall who told you 10 that they thought the police were going to go into Stoney 11 Point? 12 A: A lot of people were saying that. 13 Q: But did anyone -- so a number of 14 people told you that? 15 A: Yeah. That's why everybody gathered 16 and that's why I believe it was -- I believe it was 17 political -- it was political actions that kept the group 18 there as long as they did until finally people just said 19 and we're not staying no more. 20 Like I -- I was just there and showing my 21 support but I -- like I said I was probably in shock 22 because I was hurt so bad to begin with. 23 Q: And when you went back to Stoney 24 Point was it light out when the group started -- 25 A: Yes.
2441 Q: And is there anything else you would 2 like to say today, Mr. Cloud, before we're finished your 3 -- my examination? 4 A: If the government would have just 5 held up their end -- if the government could have just 6 honoured their own laws this wouldn't even have happened. 7 Q: And what do you mean by that? 8 A: Well, Indian Affairs had a fiduciary 9 obligation to protect the people of Aazhoodena's rights. 10 They were given that right and they never. In 1946 after 11 the ending of the war, they should have given our land 12 back. What they did was illegal. 13 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. Cloud. Now 14 we're going to finish for the day, you'll have to come 15 back tomorrow morning at ten o'clock because the other 16 lawyers as you know, have the op -- have the right to ask 17 you some questions? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And perhaps we could adjourn there 20 for the day, sir? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, we will 22 adjourn now, thank you very much until ten o'clock 23 tomorrow morning. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ten o'clock tomorrow 25 morning.
2451 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At the 2 regular time. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Unless you wanted to 4 canvass who is going to cross-examine. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should we do 6 that now or? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, why don't we do 8 that now? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll do 10 that now -- 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Cloud, you can 12 stop down. You don't need to stay for this. 13 14 (WITNESS RETIRES) 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 17 is a good idea even though it's ten after. Let's just do 18 a quick -- a quick canvas to see what the score card is 19 regarding who intends to cross-examine. 20 Who intends to cross-examine this witness, 21 please stand up. One, two, three. Okay let's -- let's 22 go through it then. Don, can you help me. How long do 23 you anticipate you might be? 24 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: About ten (10) 25 minutes.
2461 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Ten (10) minutes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Any other 3 Aboriginal parties? No. Government of Ontario? 4 MS. SUE FREEBORN: Five (5) minutes. 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: Forty-five (45) to 6 sixty (60) minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 8 Roland...? 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Oh, maybe an hour and a 10 half (1/2). 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 12 Downard...? 13 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Approximately twenty 14 (20) minutes to half (1/2) an hour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 16 O'Marra...? 17 MR. AL O'MARRA: Five (5) to ten (10) 18 minutes, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 20 Sulman...? 21 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: About fifteen (15) 22 minutes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 That sounds good. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much,
2471 Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 all very much. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mr. Cloud. 5 We'll see you tomorrow. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 7 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, November 9th, at 10:00 8 a.m. 9 10 --- Upon adjourning at 5:11 p.m. 11 12 13 14 Certified Correct 15 16 17 18 ________________________ 19 Dustin Warnock, 20 21 22 23 24 25