11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 4th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) (Np) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 18 (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) (np) 25 Sue Freeborn )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Peter West )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 Megan Mackey ) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) 20 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 ELWOOD TRACY GEORGE, Resumed 6 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 7 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Douglas Sulman 135 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 143 10 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 146 11 12 CLAYTON MORRIS GEORGE, JR., Sworn 13 14 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 149 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Certificate of Transcript 236 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-77 Document No. 1002409, Page 13, Map 4 of Ipperwash Military Reserve, 5 marked by witness Clayton George, 6 Jr. 235 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 ELWOOD TRACY GEORGE, Resumed 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Good morning. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 15 A: Good morning. 16 Q: Mr. George, before we started I just 17 wanted to make sure that we're all set up. I understood 18 yesterday that you had a binder that Commission Counsel 19 had given you that had some documents in it. Do -- do 20 you know where that might be? Is that...? Sorry. 21 If we get sorted out now, then we won't be 22 interrupted later on. 23 A: All right. 24 Q: So, I just wanted to make sure we were 25 set.
81 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Sorry about that. I understand that 4 you testified at two (2) trials -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: About Ipperwash? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Is that right? And the first was at 9 Ken Deane's trial? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that was in April of 1997? 12 A: I can't remember when it was. 13 Q: Okay. You've got the documents in 14 front of you that have the transcript. I think you'll 15 find that you testified on April 2nd, 1997 and you also 16 testified at Nick Cottrelle's trial? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that was in March of 1998? 19 A: I -- 20 Q: Somewhere -- 21 A: Again, I -- I -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- Can't remember the date. 24 Q: Okay. And I take it that at each of 25 those trials, you would have been under oath to tell the
91 truth? 2 A: Yeah, I guess. 3 Q: And I take it in any event you would 4 have gone there and you would have told the truth? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I also understand that you were 7 interviewed by the SIU on two (2) occasions? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And one (1) was in October of 10 1995? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And one (1) was in September 13 of 1997? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And just like at the trial, I take 16 it, you would have told the SIU the truth at the time? 17 A: What I could remember at the -- at 18 the time, yes. 19 Q: Sure. And we heard you say yesterday 20 a number of times that your recollection's now of a 21 number of the events aren't very clear? And I got to 22 tell you it was ten (1) years ago, I think everybody 23 appreciates it would have been very hard to recall 24 things. 25 A: Some are -- are very memorable. I
101 can't forget -- 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: -- some while others aren't so 4 memorable. 5 Q: Sure. And do you agree with me that 6 what you could recall was probably better and more closer 7 to the event? That is closer to 1995? 8 A: Pardon? 9 Q: What -- I -- I take it that your 10 memory of Ipperwash what happened in September of 1995 11 would have been better closer to that date? It gets more 12 difficult over the passage of time to remember things. 13 A: I'd say a lot of things, yes, but 14 over the period of time I probably picked up -- 15 remembered a few little minor details or whatever. 16 Q: Sorry. I'm -- I'm having a really 17 hard time hearing you. 18 A: Yeah, it would have been clearer at 19 that time for some -- 20 Q: For some things? 21 A: -- some things, yeah. 22 Q: Sure. And can you just check that 23 binder in front of you because I want -- I do want to 24 make sure that we're all set? I just wanted to make sure 25 that in that binder you've got transcripts from the two
111 (2) trials and from your SIU investigation transcripts. 2 Is there an index there that you can -- 3 you can check? 4 A: Yeah, there's one (1) with Mr. House 5 there and there's one (1) with Mr. Scott. 6 Q: Okay. And then are the trial 7 transcripts there too? 8 A: I believe that -- that is them. 9 Q: Okay. Okay. And I just wanted to 10 follow up on a couple of questions that you were asked 11 yesterday afternoon. Mr. West had asked you some 12 questions about land that from your understanding Stoney 13 Pointers and/or Kettle Pointers felt that they had a 14 right to. 15 And I think you were telling him that to 16 the west that there was a view that the land down to 17 Ravens Wood -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- was part of the land that they 20 were entitled to? 21 A: I believe so, yes. 22 Q: Sure, sure. I'm just -- and then Mr. 23 West had asked you about going east and I think he asked 24 you about Port Franks and you had said that that was 25 land, as well, that they were entitled to?
121 A: I believe there are some portions, 2 yes. 3 Q: Sure. And I just -- I just wondered 4 because I've looked at some things and it looks like 5 people have also made claims in the past or had the view 6 that Pinery Park was also part of the land that the 7 Kettle Point and/or Stoney Point people ought to have? 8 A: Well again, my father spoke of that 9 but not in great detail. 10 Q: Okay. Can you help us understand 11 what your father said? 12 A: I believe it was something to the 13 effect of a one hundred (100) year old lease or -- or 14 something like that. 15 Q: Okay. So that at some point in time 16 there was -- that had been Stoney Point and/or Kettle 17 Point land? 18 A: Well, Stoney Point I believe, yes. 19 Q: Stoney Point? Okay. And Mr. West 20 had also asked you some questions about the Park and 21 whether or not the Park was part of Stoney Point land. 22 And I didn't quite understand your answer. So I just -- 23 I just wanted to see if I could clarify a couple of 24 things. 25 And what I wanted to do is just read to
131 you from the transcript what you said yesterday and then 2 ask you a couple of questions about that, okay? 3 A: All right. 4 Q: And this was at Page 151 of the -- of 5 the transcript; we get a printout every night. And the 6 question that Mr. West (sic) put to you was: 7 "When you were protesting in the Park 8 on September 4th and 5th and 6th was 9 it, in fact, your understanding that 10 the Park lands were your lands?" 11 And your answer was: 12 "I really don't know how to answer 13 that. Is it -- it's my opinion that -- 14 " 15 And then Mr. West said, 16 "If you don't know how to answer it, 17 you don't have to, but if you want to, 18 feel free." 19 And you said: 20 "Well, it's in my opinion that these 21 people that own the Park, they had 22 their chance to keep it, you know. 23 They had their chance to fence off 24 those graves, probably more than once, 25 more than -- more than twice, and that
141 hasn't been done and it's our duty to 2 protect the people, whether they've 3 passed on, as well as the people in the 4 future, meaning future generations. 5 I guess for them not to do the proper 6 thing, is fencing off those graves, 7 that they were completely ignorant of 8 our beliefs. So, I guess to that 9 extent that we would have to reclaim 10 those lands to protect the graves." 11 And I -- I wanted to -- first of all you 12 had talked about the people that owned the Park. And by 13 that, do you mean the Government of Ontario or the 14 Ministry of Natural Resources, or -- 15 A: I -- I guess I would have been 16 referring to the Provinsh -- the Province. 17 Q: Okay. And when I looked at that, you 18 had said: 19 "They had their chance to fence off 20 those graves probably once -- more than 21 twice." 22 When -- when did the Government have a 23 chance to fence off the graves? Sorry, let me go back a 24 little bit. When you're talking about graves, you told 25 us about Fletcher's grave as being in the Park?
151 A: Yes, my uncle, yes. 2 Q: Yeah? And do you know when Fletcher 3 died? 4 A: No, I don't. 5 Q: Okay. And did you ever tell anyone at 6 -- who was running the Park or anyone from the Ministry 7 of Natural Resources or anyone at the Government about 8 Fletcher's grave? 9 A: Well, we were never asked. We -- we 10 were never ever given the opportunity to -- to say 11 anything about that. 12 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not 13 anybody else ever told -- anyone from the Stoney Point 14 ever told anyone from the Government or from the Park or 15 from the Ministry of Natural Resources about Fletcher's 16 grave? 17 A: Again, we -- we've never -- never ever 18 been approached to -- to even talk about these things. 19 Q: Okay. And you said that, They had 20 their chance and -- to fence off those graves. And when 21 you say, "those graves," were you referring to Fletcher's 22 grave or were you referring to other graves as well? 23 A: Well my -- my dad, he -- he spoke of a 24 man named Kimone (phonetic), which would have been one 25 (1) of my grandfather's -- he put it to me as -- I think
161 he was the one that was buried sitting up. He said he 2 had a -- a homestead right on the Point -- Stoney Point. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: What year that was, I -- I don't know. 5 He never went into a great detail about talking about 6 these things. 7 Q: Okay. So there were the two (2) 8 graves, then, in the Park? 9 A: That I believe, yes. 10 Q: Okay. And when you said that they had 11 a chance to fence off those graves, in your view, would 12 it have been sufficient if the Government or the Park or 13 the Ministry of Natural Resources had somehow protected 14 those particular sites so that people couldn't go there 15 and those two (2) graves would be undisturbed? 16 A: Well, they're -- they're protected 17 now. They're under our -- our control. 18 Q: Sure. But you had talked about, in 19 your answer to Mr. West, that the people who owned the 20 Park had a chance to fence off those graves and they 21 hadn't done it. 22 Q: Yes -- 23 A: Yeah. Reading Joan Holmes report I 24 believe there was something that mentioned that in there. 25 Q: Sorry?
171 A: In the Joan Holmes' report, there was 2 something that -- that was mentioned about fencing off 3 the graves? 4 Q: Okay. So that -- that was the thing 5 that ought to have happened, in your view, was those 6 graves should have been fenced off and protected? 7 A: Well, yes, that was in the 8 historical report. 9 Q: Yeah. Okay. And I also wanted to 10 follow up on a questions that Ms. Vella asked you 11 yesterday about being a warrior. And you had told her 12 that it was something that you're born into. It's not 13 something that's given to you or that someone would tell 14 you that you're a warrior. It's something that is inside 15 you and you're born with. 16 Do you recall that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And I wondered have you ever 19 received any teachings about being a warrior? Or is that 20 something that you've come to understand from your own -- 21 your own self? 22 A: Well I listen -- listening to a lot 23 of people. That's what I come to -- to gather I guess. 24 Q: Okay. Because Marlin Simon had told 25 us a couple of things about his understanding about being
181 a warrior. And I think he told us on one (1) hand that 2 all men are warriors and on the other hand he told us 3 that to be a warrior one had to go through certain 4 rituals at puberty. 5 Do you agree with one (1) or the other of 6 those statements? 7 A: Again I don't -- I don't claim to be 8 a traditional person. I -- I wouldn't know a great deal 9 about the -- the ceremonies. But yeah, I do believe that 10 -- that there is ceremonies to go through to -- to become 11 a warrior or -- or -- 12 Q: Okay. And were those -- 13 A: -- become a part of the Warrior 14 Society I guess that would be -- 15 Q: If you wanted to be part of a Warrior 16 Society you'd -- 17 A: I -- I would think. 18 Q: Okay. Then you've told us that 19 you're not part of the Warrior Society? 20 A: No. Not that I think. 21 Q: Okay. And I just -- the last 22 question I really wanted to follow up on was you had told 23 Ms. Vella that you hunted at the base. And she had asked 24 you who you hunted with and you had told her with the 25 younger guys. And I just wasn't sure which younger guys
191 you were referring to. Can you help us with that a bit? 2 A: Well, they're all pretty much younger 3 than I am. Pretty much the -- the ones that were -- 4 would hang like around the area of Dudley's trailer and 5 have fun. They wouldn't all be the same all the time. 6 Like, there would be Marlin and sometimes Kevin, 7 sometimes Dudley, sometimes Glenn. Sometimes people from 8 Kettle Point would come up and -- and run bushes. 9 Q: Yeah. And I take it that sometimes 10 people would come to the base from other areas as well to 11 go hunting from time to time? 12 A: They -- they do now. 13 Q: Okay. And I wanted to move now to 14 September the 4th which was the first day that the Park 15 was occupied and ask you some questions about that. And 16 I wanted to -- to just go through what you told the 17 Commission and make sure that I got it right and see if - 18 - see if we can make sure that's clear. 19 I understand from what you had said that 20 there were police officers at the main Park office or 21 around the store? 22 A: Again, I -- I can't remember if they 23 were there when I first got there, -- 24 Q: Right. 25 A: -- but yeah, they were in the Park.
201 Q: Okay. And I take it that there were 2 some police cruisers there as well? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yeah. And I think you told us you 5 couldn't recall how many cars there were -- police cars 6 were there? 7 A: Not to be exact -- 8 Q: Sure. 9 A: I wouldn't be able to tell you that. 10 Q: Sure. Would it be sort of two (2) or 11 three (3)? 12 A: Well, to estimate a close guess I'd 13 say four (4) or five (5). 14 Q: Okay. And you've told us that 15 Roderick George went to one (1) of the cruisers -- to one 16 (1) of the cars? 17 A: He was beside it. He never 18 intentionally went to it? 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: He just happened to be there. 21 Q: Okay. And he had some words with one 22 (1) of the officers in the car? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Yeah. And you told us he was 25 carrying a stick. About a four (4) foot long piece of
211 wood? 2 A: I -- I can't remember if he was 3 carrying it. If he carried it over there. He might have 4 asked for it. I can't remember. 5 Q: Okay. He might have asked for it from 6 -- from whom? 7 A: From one (1) of the Occupiers that -- 8 that were already there. 9 Q: Okay. And you had told us, I think, 10 that there were a number of Occupiers that were in the 11 area at the time? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And would they -- when he -- if 14 -- if he asked -- I -- I take it from your comment that 15 if he might have asked for the stick from one (1) of the 16 Occupiers that at least one (1), if not more, of the 17 people in the area were carrying sticks in their hands? 18 A: I can't recall. 19 Q: Okay. And you told us he then smashed 20 in the rear window of the cruiser? 21 A: Yeah, at some point, yes. 22 Q: Yeah? And you also told us that you 23 asked the other guys who were in the area to stand behind 24 Roderick as a way of showing support for him? 25 A: Yes.
221 Q: Yeah. And can you help us understand 2 about how many of the guys would have been -- or lined up 3 around Roderick? 4 A: That -- that stood up? I -- I can't 5 -- I -- I can't tell you the number. 6 Q: Okay. Do you remember who was there? 7 Which of the guys were there? 8 A: No, some of them -- 9 Q: Yeah? 10 A: -- but then again, I -- I might be 11 mistaken. I think one (1) might have been Dave, one (1) 12 might have been Kevin. I -- I really -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- can't tell you. 15 Q: And you've also told us that flares 16 were thrown at the officers? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yeah. Yeah. 19 A: Well, I don't know directly at them, 20 but I did see -- 21 Q: In -- in their direction -- 22 A: -- any hit them or -- 23 Q: Flares were thrown -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- in their direction.
231 A: Yes. They were just sitting here, 2 yeah. 3 Q: Okay. And, again, did you see a 4 number of flares being thrown? 5 A: At one (1) time, no. I -- I could 6 tell you for sure, I -- I seen the officer step on the 7 one (1). 8 Q: Right. Okay. And I think you told us 9 that your son had flares at that time? The flash flares. 10 A: Yes. I -- I gave them to him. 11 Q: All right. Do you remember, did you 12 give him one (1)? Did you give him a few? Did you give 13 him a lot of flash flares? 14 A: I -- I think it was one (1) pack. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I think there might have been four (4) 17 or -- or five (5) in there. 18 Q: Okay. In the pack? Did you see 19 anybody else that had flash flares or packs of flash 20 flares there? 21 A: No, I didn't. 22 Q: Okay. And do you recall if -- if you 23 saw anyone else throwing the flash flares -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- in the direction of the police?
241 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And, do you agree with me at 3 the time that Roderick George went over to the cruiser 4 and smashed the windshield -- sorry, the -- the back 5 window -- and that flares were being thrown or a flare 6 was being thrown in the direction of the officers, that 7 they were just standing there or sitting in their 8 cruisers? 9 A: Well, he never intentionally walked 10 over there to -- to smash the window. 11 Q: Sorry? 12 A: He never -- I don't think he walked 13 over there to intentionally smash the window. 14 Q: Sure, but he did. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yeah. And the police were either 17 sitting in their cars or they were just outside their 18 cars? 19 A: He was talking to -- to one (1) 20 officer, they -- they were pretty close -- 21 Q: Right 22 A: -- pretty much face to face. 23 Q: Okay. And I take it that the police 24 who were there never threatened you in any way or they 25 never took any physical actions against you in any way?
251 A: Not at that time, no. 2 Q: Right. And I take it the police never 3 retaliated in any way when Roderick smashed in the 4 cruiser window? 5 A: No, I -- I don't think so, no. 6 Q: Okay. And they never retaliated in 7 any way when a flare or flares were thrown in their 8 direct? 9 A: Not that I recall, no. 10 Q: No. No. And I had asked Marlin, I -- 11 and I think he told us that the Occupiers in the area at 12 that time outnumbered the police. Do you -- 13 A: I -- I -- would think so, yes. 14 Q: Yeah. Yeah. And I think you also 15 told us that at least one (1) of the Occupiers, and 16 that's Roderick, was intoxicated at the time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yeah. Okay. And you told Ms. Vella 19 that it was common knowledge that there would be no 20 alcohol or guns in the Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yeah. And who did you hear that 23 from? 24 A: Again, it was word of mouth. I 25 believe that everybody that went into the Park was told.
261 Q: Sure. But do you remember if someone 2 told you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Who told you? 5 A: I -- I can't even remember. 6 Q: Okay. And do you agree with me that 7 at least one (1) person, that's Roderick, wasn't obeying 8 the rules? 9 A: Pardon? 10 Q: At least one (1) person in the Park, 11 that is Roderick, wasn't obeying the rules? 12 A: Well, I -- he didn't have beer. He 13 was intoxicated. He didn't have no beer there. 14 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not -- 15 had you ever -- did you know whether or not during the 16 course of that -- of that afternoon or the evening, 17 whether or not people were -- that is, occupiers, were 18 drinking on the beach? 19 A: I -- I wasn't aware of it. 20 Q: Okay. And you also told Ms. Vella 21 that it's common knowledge among native people that 22 leaders in situations like that are always picked out and 23 always picked upon. And I just wondered, when you said 24 that by "situations like that", did you mean occupations? 25 Or was there something else you were
271 referring to? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: I don't know. To me, it's a -- I 6 don't know. It would be a situation of an occupation but 7 -- but usually leaders are -- are picked upon. Usually 8 are -- usually the first to get throwed in jail or -- or 9 charged -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- by OPPs and that's what I meant by 12 -- by that. 13 Q: Okay. Now we've heard that while the 14 occupiers were at the base, that is the Army base, at 15 least for a period of time, there were leaders. Do you 16 know anything about that? 17 For -- between the period of 1993 to 1995? 18 A: I've -- I've -- I believe they had -- 19 they had the Council set up. 20 Q: Yeah. And we heard that Carl George 21 was the leader for a period. Did you -- 22 A: Yeah, I -- 23 Q: -- know that? 24 A: -- I knew that. 25 Q: Okay. And do you know Carl George?
281 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And are you aware of any time 3 when Carl George was picked on or thrown in jail because 4 he was a leader at the base? 5 A: No, no. 6 Q: Okay. And I want to move on now, to 7 the next day, September the 5th, and I think that's the 8 Tuesday. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Yeah, okay. And I think you told Ms. 11 Vella that you had a fire in the sandy parking lot. 12 A: I -- I believe we did. I think I had 13 that in one (1) of my -- one (1) of my SIU reports. 14 Q: Okay. And what was the purpose of 15 building the fire out in the sandy parking lot? 16 A: I -- I -- I believe it -- I believe 17 it was a sacred fire. 18 Q: Okay. Why -- why would it have been 19 built in the sandy parking lot? 20 A: I -- I don't know. That was just 21 agreed upon somehow. I -- I really don't know. 22 Q: Okay. Because I take it if you 23 wanted to have a fire, you could have a fire in the Park? 24 A: Yeah, yeah. 25 Q: Or have a fire on the beach.
291 A: Oh, anywheres, yeah. 2 Q: Anywheres there are lots of places to 3 have fires, okay. And she also asked you what the 4 purpose was of taking the picnic tables out into the 5 sandy parking lot and you told her that you were just 6 going to sit around the fire -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Do you recall that? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And we've heard evidence already that 11 there were a number of picnic tables in the Park. Do you 12 recall that? When you were in -- 13 A: In the Park? 14 Q: -- in the Park? Yeah. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Yeah. And I take it that if you 17 wanted to have a fire and sit around a picnic table you 18 could do that in the Park? 19 A: Yeah, anywhere, yeah. 20 Q: Yeah, sure. You didn't have to bring 21 picnic tables out of the Park? 22 A: Well, you didn't have to I guess. 23 Q: Right. And do you agree with me that 24 the sandy parking lot is not part of the Park? It's 25 outside of the Park.
301 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 2 Mr. Henderson has an objection. Yes, Mr. Henderson...? 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: This is really a 4 question of conveyancing and title searching. I can 5 ensure the Commissioner that none of counsel know the 6 answer to that question. I don't know how the witness 7 would be expected to answer it. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 9 think she's asking him what -- I don't think she's asking 10 him what the legal title is. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: I am in no way asking 12 him about legal title. I'm what -- and maybe I can 13 clarify. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: In your understanding, was -- the 17 sandy parking lot was outside of the Park? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 19 minute. I think that's a fair question. I mean his -- 20 THE WITNESS: Yes it was outside of -- of 21 the Park, yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It certainly 23 doesn't determine the title, we're aware of that. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
311 Q: Now, just so you know, we've already 2 heard some evidence about the picnic table incident and 3 Marlin Simon testified about it on October 18th, were you 4 here when he testified about the picnic tables? 5 A: I was here -- one (1) day of his -- 6 Q: Yeah, okay. And what I wanted to do 7 was see if you agree or you disagree with some of his 8 descriptions of the incident so we understand a little 9 bit better what you recall. 10 He had told us that a number of picnic 11 tables had been taken out to sandy parking lot? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yeah? And he said that there could 14 have been ten (10) or more that were taken out to the 15 sandy parking lot? 16 A: I -- I believe when -- when the 17 police rammed the tables. Yes, there was more than that. 18 More than one. 19 Q: Okay. And he said that the occupiers 20 had brought a bunch of picnic tables into the sandy 21 parking lot and were chopping some of them up and using 22 them for firewood? Did you see that? 23 A: I -- I can't recall them being 24 chopped up. 25 Q: Okay. And he said that others were
321 being stacked up and were across the access to the 2 parking lot. Do you recall seeing the picnic tables 3 being stacked up? 4 A: I -- I think so. I think I recall a 5 little bit about that. 6 Q: And he said that there were about 7 twelve (12) occupiers who were out in the sandy parking 8 lot. Does that sound about right to you? 9 A: Number wise? I'd say somewhere 10 around -- around there. 11 Q: Okay. And he said that a cruiser 12 then came by -- were you out in the sandy parking lot 13 when the picnic tables were being stacked up? 14 A: I -- I think I was on the inside of 15 the Park. I might have been passing them over the fence. 16 I -- I'm not too sure about that. 17 Q: Okay. And Marlin told us that a 18 cruiser came by and stopped. Do you recall seeing a 19 cruiser in the sandy parking lot area? 20 A: I -- I can't recall. 21 Q: Okay. And he told us that the 22 officers in the cruiser said to go back into the Park. 23 Did you hear the officers say that? 24 A: No, I didn't. 25 Q: Okay. Was there any discussion at
331 the time that you recall among the occupiers about the 2 police saying to get back into the Park? 3 A: They -- they could have. Again, I -- 4 I can't recall myself. 5 Q: Okay. And Marlin Simon told us that 6 he told the police that it was a public roadway and you, 7 being the occupiers, could be out there if you liked. 8 Was that something that you heard? 9 A: Again, I -- I can't remember. 10 Q: Okay. Do you ever remember seeing 11 Marlin talking to the police or were having an exchange 12 with the police or yelling going back and forth between 13 Marlin and the police? 14 A: I -- I think it was -- I think it was 15 the 5th. I think he was the one that threw the sand in 16 the policeman's face. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: What time that was, I can't remember. 19 Q: Okay. And I'm going to get to that 20 because I -- I wasn't quite clear about it, but I just 21 want to talk about that picnic table incident itself. 22 And so, I think you have told us that you 23 were in the Park and you were passing picnic tables out, 24 or you might have been? 25 A: Well, yeah, it took more than --
341 somebody would have to pass the tables over the fence for 2 somebody to grab them on the other side. 3 Q: Sure, sure. And if you look at the 4 Board behind you, and that's the diagram of -- Stan 5 Thompson's diagram of the sandy parking lot area, first 6 of all can you help us; where was the fire out in the 7 sandy parking lot? 8 A: To the best of -- the best of my 9 recollection, I would estimate it to be somewheres around 10 here. 11 Q: And what you're doing -- 12 A: Right -- 13 Q: -- with the pointer, is you're 14 showing an area in the sandy parking lot that looks like 15 -- what would you say, about ten (10) feet from the 16 fence? 17 A: I -- it might have been -- 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: Might have been a little further out, 20 I -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- can't remember. 23 Q: And it -- the point that you're -- a 24 little bit further out into the sandy parking lot, 25 fifteen (15) feet, twenty (20) feet? And I wasn't --
351 A: It -- it might have been fifteen 2 (15), I don't -- 3 Q: Okay. And the place that you've 4 shown, it looks like it's south of the gate going into 5 the Park. Is that right? 6 A: I -- I believe so, yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And where would you have been 8 handing or passing the picnic tables over the fence? 9 Would that have been to the north of the gate or the 10 south of the gate? 11 A: Again, I really can't remember. I 12 know I was just inside the gate. 13 Q: Okay. Pardon me? 14 A: I -- I really can't remember. 15 Q: Okay, okay. And you told us, I 16 think, that the cruiser came north along Army Camp Road? 17 A: Northerly direction, yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And did you see it when it was 19 driving up the road and into the parking lot? 20 A: I think I just remember it when -- 21 when it got close to the picnic tables. 22 Q: Okay. And I think you told us that 23 the cruiser was in contact with one (1) picnic table? 24 A: Yeah, the one (1) Stewart and -- 25 Q: Sorry?
361 A: The one (1) Stewart and my nephew was 2 carrying. 3 Q: Right. But it was one (1) picnic 4 table? 5 A: Yeah, only the one (1) I seen. 6 Q: Yeah, okay. And Marlin's told us, 7 again, on October the 18th, that he and another of the 8 occupiers then threw or tipped a picnic table onto the 9 hood of the cruiser. Do you recall seeing anything like 10 that? 11 A: October 18th? That was -- 12 Q: No, no. I'm sorry, I'm getting you 13 confused here. When Marlin Simon was giving evidence at 14 this Inquiry, he said that he and someone else threw or 15 tipped a picnic table onto the hood of the cruiser. 16 Do you recall seeing anything like that? 17 A: I -- I can't remember. 18 Q: Okay. And do you recall hearing 19 obscenities being shouted by the occupiers at the police 20 or towards the police? 21 A: Well -- again, I can't remember but I 22 -- I would imagine so, yes. 23 Q: Sure. And do you recall that rocks 24 were thrown at the police and at the cruisers or cruiser? 25 A: Right -- right at that time, I can't
371 recall that. I -- I know that that's when the majority 2 of the rocks really escalated. 3 Q: Right. But at the picnic table 4 incident itself, you can't -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- recall one way or the other? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. And during the period of time 9 that this was going on, would you still be inside the 10 Park or did you come outside of the Park into the sandy 11 parking lot? 12 A: I was out there at that -- at one (1) 13 point, but again I -- I wasn't inside the Park all the 14 time, no. I was outside, too. 15 Q: Okay. And we heard that when the 16 rocks were thrown that windshields of the cruisers were 17 broken. Did you see that? 18 A: Well, at that -- that time I -- I 19 think it would be the -- the cruiser would have been -- 20 left already. I -- I think it was that time -- I think 21 it might have been my boy that threw one (1) over the 22 trees and -- and heard something smash. I -- I don't -- 23 I don't know if anybody really seen it. 24 Q: Okay. And do you recall that, whether 25 after the rocks started being thrown or you heard the
381 smash of the broken window, whether -- 2 A: Well, I -- again -- I didn't hear it. 3 I just heard them say that they probably hit a 4 windshield. 5 Q: Oh, okay. And after that, did the 6 police leave? Do you know? 7 A: I believe so. 8 Q: Okay. And during the course of time - 9 - sorry, soon after that, within a minute or minutes or 10 fifteen (15) minutes or twenty (20) minutes, did you see 11 or do you recall if the police came back? 12 A: I -- I can't remember if that was -- 13 was when -- when -- the police came back at one (1) time 14 or another. I -- I can't remember when or how long 15 after, but -- 16 Q: Okay. And we heard that this picnic 17 table incident took place at night. Do you recall that? 18 A: I don't think so. 19 Q: Okay. When do you think it took 20 place? 21 A: It would be -- we would be able to see 22 yet. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Daylight. 25 Q: It was in the daylight?
391 A: Well, it wasn't really dark. 2 Q: Okay. Was it the afternoon? Was it 3 the evening? 4 A: It would be somewheres late afternoon, 5 may -- maybe early evening. I -- I don't -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- I really don't recall, but it 8 wasn't dark. 9 Q: Okay. I think you told us that it 10 gets dark at about 8:00 or 8:30, at that time -- that 11 time of the year? 12 A: I -- I -- 13 Q: In September? 14 A: -- think that might -- might be -- 15 that was an estimate, but -- 16 Q: Sure. 17 A: -- somewheres around there, I believe. 18 Q: Okay. Okay. The days are getting 19 shorter by September? 20 A: Yeah, that's why -- 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: -- I just estimated. I don't know for 23 sure. 24 Q: Yeah. And one (1) -- one (1) of the 25 reasons I'm a little confused about the time is that
401 according to the police notes of the incident, it took 2 place after ten o'clock at night -- 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: -- and I'm assuming that after ten 5 o'clock at night it would be dark. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Yeah. Okay. Does that help you at 8 all, hearing that -- that it's -- 9 A: No, it don't. 10 Q: Doesn't help at all? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. And I also wanted to ask you 13 some questions about the other incident that you told Ms. 14 Vella about and you said that there was another incident 15 in the sandy parking lot where the occupiers were inside 16 the Park and the police were outside the Park and there 17 was an exchange of words. Do you recall that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Now, I -- I'm going to try and 20 get a better sense, if I can, about when that happened, 21 and first of all, in terms of when it happened during the 22 course of a day. Do you recall if that incident happened 23 in the morning, in the afternoon, in the evening, or 24 after dark? 25 A: Again, that -- that's one (1) of the -
411 - the incidents that -- that I -- I really couldn't -- 2 couldn't put into perspective whether it happened on the 3 5th or -- or on the 6th, I -- but I know did happen. 4 Q: Yeah. I -- I actually wasn't -- I -- 5 I thought if we went back to what time of day it 6 happened, that would be a start. Can you recall whether 7 it was -- the -- the sun was out when this happened or 8 whether it was light out or whether it was dark? 9 A: No. I -- I -- I can't even recall 10 that. 11 Q: Okay. Do you -- were you one (1) of 12 the people that was behind the fence? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And can you give us an idea 15 about how many people would have been behind the fence in 16 the Park with you? 17 A: Number-wise? I -- I couldn't tell 18 you. 19 Q: Twelve (12)? Fifteen (15)? Twenty 20 (20)? 21 A: It would be just a wild guess if I was 22 to -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- give you a number. 25 Q: Okay. And can you tell us how many
421 police were outside the Park? And -- and let me just -- 2 A: Again -- again that -- I would -- I 3 would just have -- 4 Q: Sure. Okay. Did it seem to you like 5 there were more occupiers than police? Or more police 6 than occupiers? Or was it -- did it seem about even? 7 A: I -- I can't answer that. 8 Q: Can't help, okay. And do you know 9 whether an incident had occurred -- or can you help us in 10 understanding how a situation would happen where a number 11 of occupiers were lined up inside the Park and a number 12 of police were outside the Park? 13 Do you recall seeing for example, cruisers 14 driving into the area, police cruisers? 15 A: At the time of the sand throwing? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: No. All I could remember about that 18 incident is -- is the police. I don't remember the 19 number of police or the number of occupiers that were 20 there. All I remember is the police trying to take his 21 vest off. I don't even remember if he took it completely 22 off. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: All I remember about that time is him 25 getting on the one (1) knee and striking his baton into
431 the sand and -- 2 Q: Right. 3 A: -- telling us, welcome to Canada. 4 And that's all I could tell you about that. 5 Q: Okay. Now I take it that you -- and 6 you remember that because that was something that was 7 significant to you? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. And would it have been 10 significant to you if there had been threats made against 11 one or more of the occupiers? Is -- is that the kind of 12 thing that you would remember? Or can -- or do you know? 13 A: I would imagine I would remember. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: But I -- I don't remember anything. 16 Q: Okay. And would it be a significant 17 thing to you if pepper spray was used by the police 18 against the occupiers? Is that something that you might 19 remember? 20 A: If I -- if I got in the eye, I would 21 remember, but -- 22 Q: Sure. Okay. And do you recall any 23 pepper spray being used in the area or being aware -- 24 A: I -- I don't know. 25 Q: Okay. Now in terms of the actual
441 date that this happened on, you testified about this 2 incident at Nick Cottrelle's trial and that trial -- you 3 gave your evidence at that trial on March 27th, 1998, and 4 do you agree with me that your memory probably would have 5 been clearer then about the events than it is now? Just 6 because it's a long time ago? 7 A: Yeah. I would agree with you. 8 Q: Okay. And Ms. Vella took you to an 9 excerpt of the transcript to see if that would refresh 10 your memory. And I wanted -- I wanted to do the same 11 thing as well to see if we could help in terms of the 12 timing. 13 And I take it that there were two (2) 14 things that stood out for you about this and one was the 15 police officer taking off his vest and making that 16 comment, welcome to Canada; that's something you recall 17 clearly? 18 A: Yeah, and him getting on his knee and 19 striking a baton into the ground. 20 Q: Sure. And you recall sand being 21 thrown in an officer's face, right? 22 A: Yes. I -- I don't remember who threw 23 it. 24 Q: Right. And those are the two (2) 25 things that really stick out in your mind about that
451 incident? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And those two (2) things, I 4 take it, only happened on one (1) occasion? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So there weren't other times when 7 comments like that were made or other times when you 8 recall sand being in someone's face? 9 A: No. I believe so. 10 Q: Yeah. Okay. So if we can locate in 11 your transcript those two (2) things and we look at what 12 you said about the date, that might help you? 13 A: Yeah it might. 14 Q: Okay. Now in that book in front of 15 you, there should be the transcript from the trial of 16 Nicholas Cottrelle. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Now you'll see if -- if you turn to 21 Page 37 of that transcript, are you there? Okay. You'll 22 see in the middle of the -- on my document, it says on 23 the left hand side, Number 10? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And it says:
461 "Question: Did you see any blows 2 struck at that time or stones thrown at 3 that time?" 4 And the answer was: 5 "I don't recall. I recall there was 6 sand. I don't know who threw it but 7 there was sand thrown in one (1) 8 officer's face". 9 Do you see that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And then there's some further 12 evidence about that, and at the bottom of the page 13 there's a question that says" 14 "Did you do anything after they had 15 left the fence line?" 16 And the answer was: 17 "We put picnic tables outside on the 18 sandy part in a circle. We had a 19 fire". 20 And the question was: 21 "That -- this night?" 22 Because at this point in time, you're 23 talking about September the 6th, right? And you say: 24 "Pardon?" 25 And if you turn over the page, you say --
471 the question was: 2 "Was that this night?" 3 And the answer was" 4 "Oh no, that was Monday night." 5 And so then the question is: 6 "So try stick to this night right now." 7 And that's the night of September 6th. 8 You have the police officers 9 withdrawing. Did anyone do anything. 10 The police have withdrawn somewhat. 11 Did anyone do anything?" 12 And your answer was: 13 "Oh, I think there was rocks thrown." 14 And the question: 15 "What happened after the rocks were 16 thrown?" 17 And the answer is: 18 "I don't know. I think they just 19 buggered off." 20 And the question was: 21 "Who buggered off?" 22 And the answer was: 23 "The police". 24 Then there's a question: 25 "Was that the end of the evening, or
481 did something else happen?" 2 And the answer was: 3 "No, they came back later that 4 evening". 5 "Q: Okay, and what happened when they 6 came back? 7 A: We got into a confrontation. 8 Q: How did that happen? 9 A: I don't know. I can't tell you 10 what I heard". 11 And the question: 12 "Well, what did you see?" 13 And the answer is: 14 "I seen the police in full riot gear. 15 It would be approximately 10:30, eleven 16 o'clock. 17 Q: What did they do?" 18 A: They lined up along the edge of the 19 tarmac". 20 And when I read your transcript, Mr. 21 George, it looked to me like you were saying this 22 incident where sand was thrown in the officer's face 23 happened on September 6th and it happened before the 24 police came down East Parkway into the sandy parking lot. 25 Does that help you? Or does -- is that --
491 does that coincide with your recollection? 2 A: Well, that kind of throws me off when 3 that Monday gets thrown in there like that. 4 Q: Sure. 5 A: But again, I -- I do believe that -- 6 that sand thrown, like I've said, I -- I've lost 7 perspective. I can't put that incident into perspective 8 -- is whether it happened on the -- the 5th or the 6th. 9 I -- it's just totally confusing to me that -- what day 10 that happened. 11 Q: Okay. So when you're reading your 12 transcript at the -- from the trial that the incident 13 happened involving the sand throwing and then later on 14 that evening there was the confrontation with the police? 15 A: Yeah, that -- that -- that happened 16 on the 6th -- 17 Q: Sure. 18 A: -- according to this transcripts, 19 yeah, I -- I guess I would have said it did happen on the 20 6th, yes. 21 Q: Okay. And just so we're clear, I 22 think you told us when I read your transcript from the 23 trial, what you had told the Judge then was you recalled 24 sand being thrown in an officer's face, but you couldn't 25 recall who threw the sand?
501 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: Well I -- I think it was Marlin, but 4 again, I'm not too sure. 5 Q: You're not sure? You don't know? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: At the time, that is back at the time 8 of the trial, you didn't know who it was? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. And you told us that on 11 September the 6th, you got to the Park in the afternoon, 12 some time around 4:00, is that right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So the sand throwing incident then 15 must have happened after four o'clock? 16 A: Yeah, it must have. 17 Q: Yeah. Okay. And you told us that on 18 September the 6th, first of all, you came to the Park and 19 then you told us you were in and out of the Park. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And do you recall what -- 22 where you went to when you left the Park? 23 A: That area. I could have just drove 24 around anywheres, down the beach, around the other part 25 of the Park.
511 Q: Sure. 2 A: Around the roads and in the military 3 base. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I -- I don't think I -- I drove to 6 the built-up area, I did once but that was to try go and 7 get help. 8 Q: Right. Okay. 9 A: And that's what I could tell you to 10 the best of my recollection. 11 Q: I was a little surprized when I heard 12 you say that. I guess I would have expected that given 13 the circumstances and the fact that the Park had only 14 been recently occupied and that you went there 15 specifically after work, that you would have spent your 16 time in the Park. 17 Was there a reason that you were driving 18 around and leaving the Park? 19 A: No, no reason. 20 Q: No? Okay. Now you told us that that 21 evening Cecil -- that is the evening of September the 22 6th, after you got to the Park, you told us that Cecil 23 Bernard George had gone out to scout East Parkway Drive? 24 Do you recall that? 25 A: Yeah, at some time, yes.
521 Q: Okay. And you told us that Cecil 2 Bernard George came back into the Park and I think you 3 said back into the gate about five (5) minutes before you 4 could see the police on East Parkway? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. So Cecil Bernard George was in 7 the Park well before the police came down the road -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- that you could see. Okay. And 10 you said at Nick Cottrelle's trial that it was 10:30 or 11 11:00 when the police came back; that is came down the 12 road? Does that seem about right in terms of timing? 13 A: Well, again that was just a guess. 14 Q: Okay, okay. And I take it at that 15 time that it was dark outside? It was nighttime? 16 A: When the police showed up back up 17 that night, yes. 18 Q: Okay. And in your SIU interviews and 19 at trial, you've given a number of descriptions about 20 what it was like at the time. And on October 12th, 1995, 21 you had an interview with the SIU and you told them that 22 it was that dark that if a person was ten (10) feet away, 23 you couldn't recognize them. 24 Do you recall that? 25 A: Well, visually yes.
531 Q: Yeah. 2 A: But that's -- but that's -- that 3 would be without headlights or -- or without flashlights 4 going. 5 Q: Okay. And at Ken Deane's trial, 6 which was on April the 2nd, 1997, you told the judge that 7 there were some vehicle lights pointing west. 8 A: Not -- not all the time. 9 Q: No. Okay. And that there women and 10 kids in the gate with flashlights but you never looked to 11 see if those flashlights were on. Do you recall that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. Now you said that the car 14 lights were on and off. Is that -- is that right? 15 A: At -- at the time of the confrontation 16 I -- I believe they were on. 17 Q: Okay. So, what -- what lights were 18 on? What car lights were on? First of all, where were - 19 - where were the cars parked? 20 A: In the parking lot. 21 Q: In -- in which parking lot? 22 A: Inside the Park. 23 Q: Okay. And maybe you can just help us 24 a little bit in terms of where in the Park, because we've 25 been told about a parking area around the store. Is that
541 -- is that the parking area you're talking about? 2 A: Well, that's -- that's old parking lot 3 on that side of the fence. It was there and it -- there 4 was an awful big parking lot on the other side of the 5 fence inside the Park. 6 Q: Okay. And is that parking lot to the 7 north of the gate or to the south of the gate, the gate 8 being the gate between the sandy -- 9 A: The gate would be on the -- on the -- 10 on the south end, I guess. 11 Q: So, the parking lot would be north of 12 the gate? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And by "the gate", I mean the gate 15 that is between the Park and the sandy parking lot. 16 Right? Is that -- that's the gate we're talking about? 17 The one that is in the sandy parking lot area along the 18 fence line? 19 And, I'm sorry, I don't mean to be 20 confusing here, I'm just trying to -- if -- if you take 21 your pointer again, sorry -- 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Can I -- 23 THE WITNESS: Well, from -- from -- 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Can I -- 25 THE WITNESS: -- from this -- this
551 point -- 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry. Mr. -- 3 Elwood -- Mr. George. Just a minute. Can I suggest that 4 we put up the -- 5 MS. KAREN JONES: We'll put up the 6 Ipperwash -- 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- the map of the 8 "Welcome to Ipperwash" 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- and then, perhaps, 11 he can demonstrate which parking lot he's referring to, 12 because it's not on the map that he's looking at. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. No, that -- that 14 would be really helpful and then maybe we can try and -- 15 and see where that fits in with this document, because 16 one (1) of the things that's difficult with the "Welcome 17 to Ipperwash" diagram is that it doesn't show the outside 18 area, so -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: -- we may have to do 21 both things, but -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: -- it's probably a 24 better place to start. 25
561 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 4 Q: Okay. Now, what Ms. Vella's helped us 5 with, Mr. George, is she's put on the screen the "Welcome 6 to Ipperwash" diagram and we see on that diagram, on the 7 left-hand side of it, that there is a road entering into 8 the Park that says, "Entrance" and it goes up to the Park 9 store, it's south of the Park store? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there's also another road that 12 comes in that's north of the Park store and it looks like 13 there's a parking lot north of that. 14 A: Well, this area in here is all -- all 15 parking lot. This would be the fence, that would be all 16 parking lot along in there, there, there, and there. 17 Q: Okay. And what you're pointing to is 18 the top left corner of the diagram and it looked -- it 19 looks like you're saying the whole left corner of that 20 diagram -- 21 A: Is parking area. 22 Q: -- north of the road and the Park 23 store is parking lot. 24 A: Parking area. 25 Q: Parking area. Okay. And does that
571 parking area -- or did it at the time, extend up to the 2 fence or was there some land between the fence and the 3 parking -- and the parking area? 4 A: I believe it -- this -- this whole 5 area, if this is -- if this was the fence line, this 6 would be all parking area right there, I -- I believe. 7 It's -- it's wide open, no trees, no -- no fences or -- 8 Q: Okay. Do you remember what it was 9 like at the time, though? 10 A: Do you mean like -- 11 Q: In 1995. Do you remember what that 12 area looked like at that time? 13 A: Well, it would have been clear. 14 Q: Okay. Now, if you turn around behind 15 you to the diagram by Stan Thompson, is that area that 16 you've pointed out -- sorry, just to go back to the Stan 17 Thompson diagram, we see on the right-hand side of the 18 diagram that -- that the fence is marked? Yeah? Along 19 there? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And there's some -- it looks like 22 bubbles or trees or some kind of things marked half way 23 up that line. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Is -- and then there's a gap
581 north of that, there's nothing -- there's no -- there's 2 no drawing north of that line? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Yeah, just -- just above that. Right 5 in there. Now can you tell us where the sandy parking 6 lot is in relation to that fence line that's marked on 7 Stan Thompson's diagram? Is it north of the -- of the 8 fence or is it -- or is south or is it -- 9 A: There's -- along the roadway there's 10 a hill that goes down to the lake. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: And that parking lot as long as I've 13 ever know it was along -- along in here. 14 Q: Okay. Are -- are you showing us a 15 parking lot that is outside? 16 A: Well, it was -- 17 Q: Outside of the Park? 18 A: Well, I thought that's what you were 19 asking. 20 Q: Oh, no, no. Sorry, I'm -- I'm not 21 helping you very much here. I think you had told us that 22 there was at some point in time during the night, or at 23 least during the confrontation, there were car headlights 24 that were turned on? 25 A: Yeah. On and off.
591 Q: On and off? And I had asked you 2 where the cars were parked that had the headlights on. 3 A: I can't show you on this map here. 4 Q: Okay. Because the -- because it's 5 inside the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And one of -- and it's -- it's 8 a little difficult because we've got two (2) different 9 things going on. We've got the Welcome to Ipperwash map 10 that you can see the Park area in and then we've got the 11 Stan Thompson diagram -- 12 A: On -- on this map, if those trees 13 were to be here, you pointed out on this map here, right? 14 Q: Right. 15 A: If those trees were to be here, if 16 that was to be the fence line -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- this would be the sandy parking 19 lot roughly around in this area. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I -- I believe the cars' headlights 22 we are talking about were parked in this parking lot 23 right there. 24 Q: Okay. I -- and so just to try and 25 transfer it then, and I'm sorry, I just -- I don't want
601 to belabour this, but if we then turn to the Stan 2 Thompson diagram, that parking lot in the Park that 3 you're referring to then would have been to the right of 4 the area that's marked as the fence with what looks like 5 trees on it? 6 A: Yeah where the map ends, yes. 7 Q: Yeah. Okay. And do you know how 8 many cars were parked there? 9 A: Again I -- I'd -- I wouldn't be able 10 to tell you that. I didn't take count. 11 Q: Okay. And you -- I think you just 12 said that on and off or from time to time car lights were 13 turned on? 14 A: Well, that and we had spotlights all 15 through the night that they were on and off. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: There was people with flashlights. 18 They were on and off during the night. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: They weren't -- they never came off 21 or they never came on all at once at one (1) time. They 22 never were all -- I imagine they at some point, they 23 would be all off at one (1) time but I don't think they 24 were ever all on at one time. 25 Q: Okay. So I take it from what you say
611 then, that it was night time and it was dark. But at 2 different points in times during that evening and during 3 the night there would have been different lighting 4 conditions? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And you told us about the 7 spotlights. What spotlights are you referring to? 8 A: People just had spotlights. Again, I 9 don't know who had them or whose they were but I know 10 that we had -- we had spotlights. We -- I don't mean -- 11 I couldn't tell you by way -- but somebody. I can't give 12 you no names. I can't give no numbers of -- of how many 13 spotlights there were actually. 14 Q: Okay. Did you recall seeing someone 15 with a spotlight? Or did you just see the light from a 16 spotlight? 17 A: I can't remember if it was -- was 18 Dave or not. I can't -- I can't tell you for sure who 19 had the spotlights, no. 20 Q: Okay. Was -- did you see someone 21 carrying a spotlight or spotlights around or was the 22 spotlight or spotlights on -- attached to a car or 23 something else? Do you recall? 24 A: No. I can't recall. Again, we were 25 at the fence where those cars and that would be behind
621 us. 2 Q: Okay. So the lighting coming on and 3 off would have been lighting that came from behind you? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay, when you were up at the fence 6 area? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. So, you wouldn't necessarily - 9 - or you might not at all have seen -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- what was on and what was off and 12 that -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- kind of thing? Okay. Mr. 15 Commissioner, it's just after 10:00. I'm wondering if 16 this is a good time to have a break or would you like to 17 carry on? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm going to be some 20 time more and this is a -- this is sort of a natural 21 break for me, but I'm happy to carry on if that works 22 better for you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You made an 24 estimate before we began of approximately two (2) hours 25 and you've been about an hour fifteen (15) minutes, so --
631 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- is your 3 estimate still reasonable? 4 MS. KAREN JONES: It might be a tad 5 optimistic, but not too optimistic. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 7 Then I think this would be a good time to take a break. 8 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 9 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 10 11 --- Upon recessing at 10:13 a.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 10:35 a.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 15 resumed. Please be seated. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. Apparently, there's a class of school 18 children coming; some of them are here and some aren't, 19 so we might get some interruptions, but I think we'll 20 just carry on. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Mr. 22 Commissioner, I've just been asked to clarify for the 23 record that I've been referring to that "Welcome to Park 24 -- Ipperwash" -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
641 MS. KAREN JONES: -- document and that's 2 Document Number 1002409 of the Commission documents and 3 I've also been referring to a board that's behind Mr. 4 George and I've been referring to it as the Stan Thompson 5 diagram and that is Exhibit P-75 and so, in the course 6 and over the next period of time when I refer to the 7 "Welcome to Ipperwash" document, if I do, I'll be 8 referring to 1002409 and the Stan Thompson diagram, that 9 will be P-75. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: I hope that helps. 13 Okay. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: Now, I think you told us in your 17 evidence, Mr. George, that you saw police come down East 18 Parkway Drive, is that right, towards the Park? 19 A: The evening of September 6th? 20 Q: I'm sorry. I've got to start back. 21 Yeah, on the evening of September the 6th, it's about 22 10:30 or 11:00 in your time -- 23 A: Approximately? 24 Q: Approximately. It's dark and you had 25 told us in -- yesterday that you saw police come down
651 East Parkway Drive towards the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yeah? Okay. And at the time that the 4 police were coming down East Parkway Drive towards the 5 Park, can you tell us whether you were in the Park or 6 whether you were in the sandy parking lot? 7 A: When I visually seen them, I was 8 inside the Park. 9 Q: Okay. And can you tell us whether or 10 not other occupiers were in the Park or whether there 11 were any occupiers, at that time, in the sandy parking 12 lot? 13 A: Again -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- when -- when all the lights are 16 turned off, it -- it was -- it was fairly dark. Somebody 17 was wearing -- wearing real dark clothes without a -- a 18 little bit of light, you -- you really wouldn't be able 19 to -- to recognize them if they were off a certain 20 distance, I -- I would imagine, like, if they had bushes 21 as a background which would be -- appear darker itself. 22 Q: Sure. 23 A: It would be hard to -- to tell, I 24 would imagine. I -- if you were -- 25 Q: Sure, it would be very hard.
661 A: -- if you were trying to -- to make 2 that -- 3 Q: Sure, it would be very hard to see. 4 A: -- observation. Yeah. 5 Q: Yeah. Okay. Do you remember, though, 6 seeing any of the occupiers -- 7 A: No -- 8 Q: -- out -- 9 A: I -- I didn't see any outside -- 10 Q: Outside -- 11 A: -- the gate, myself, no. 12 Q: Okay. And, I think you told us that 13 when the police came down Army -- sorry, East Parkway 14 Drive, they came to the tarmac; is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And I think you told us that 17 they stopped at the tarmac -- 18 A: Lined up. 19 Q: Lined up on the tarmac? Okay. So at 20 that point in time, the occupiers were, so far as you 21 knew, were behind the fence in the park and the police 22 were on the tarmac; right? 23 A: To my understanding, yes. 24 Q: Okay. So, there was nobody at that 25 time that you could see in the sandy parking lot?
671 A: No, I don't think so. 2 Q: Okay. And the police didn't go onto 3 the sandy parking lot? 4 A: Not at that time, I --- I don't think 5 so. 6 Q: Okay. And then I think you told us 7 in your evidence that you heard a dog yelp? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And did you see any dog 10 around? 11 A: No. I -- I believe that was when I 12 went to hunt for -- for a stick myself, 'cause I -- why - 13 - I didn't have anything. 14 Q: Okay. So you didn't actually see the 15 dog that yelped? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. And so far as you knew at that 18 time, was there only one (1) dog in the park that -- or 19 on the Base, that is -- did -- with -- 20 A: Well, I -- I didn't even know that 21 there -- there was a dog there, myself, -- 22 Q: Okay. Okay. 23 A: -- at that time. 24 Q: Okay. I think you told us that it 25 was your brother Stewart's dog.
681 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: Well, I -- I found that out later. 4 Q: At the time you didn't know -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- what it was. Okay. And, were you 7 familiar with your brother's dog? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: With Stewart's dog? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yeah. And we've heard that it was 12 part pit bull? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Half pit bull. 16 Q: Okay. And it was a black dog, I 17 think? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And do you know what his name 20 was? 21 A: His name was Nigger. 22 Q: Okay. And you said after the dog 23 yelped, that your brother, Stewart, went out? 24 A: Yes, he did. 25 Q: Okay. And when you say he went out,
691 do you mean he went outside of the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Did he go over the fence into 4 the sandy parking area? 5 A: I -- I believe he went over the 6 fence, -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- I'm really not too sure. 9 Q: Okay. Did you -- did you see him 10 leave the Park? 11 A: I don't -- I don't think I -- I seen 12 him, but the reason why I went out there was -- was I had 13 seen everybody go out. 14 Q: Okay. So, so far as what you saw, or 15 what you heard, you heard a dog yelp and then at -- and 16 then you went to get a stick? 17 A: I -- I believe I went to get a stick 18 when the -- the police lined up on the tarmac, 'cause -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- like, I'd -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- I didn't have nothing -- 23 Q: You didn't -- you didn't have a bat 24 or a club or a pipe -- 25 A: No.
701 Q: -- or anything in your hand? And 2 then, so you were looking for a stick, you found a stick? 3 A: Yeah. That's when -- 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: -- yeah. 6 Q: And did you then go back to the 7 fence? 8 A: And then over, yes. 9 Q: And over the fence. So by the time 10 you found your stick and you came back to the fence area, 11 people were going -- that is, the occupiers were going 12 over the fence? 13 A: Yeah, they would have been over the 14 fence already. 15 Q: So you were a little bit behind 16 everybody else? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And could you see when you 19 came up to the fence, or you were going over the fence, 20 where the police were? Were they still back on the 21 tarmac? 22 A: I -- I can't really say if they were 23 on the tarmac or -- 24 Q: Or -- 25 A: -- they were --
711 Q: They were -- 2 A: -- out in that direction -- 3 Q: Right. So they were -- if -- if they 4 weren't on the tarmac, they were on the west side of the 5 sandy parking lot? 6 A: All I can tell you is -- is when I 7 went over the fence, is -- it wasn't too long, I got over 8 the fence that day. They rushed us, charged us. 9 Q: Okay. Now, I just want to slow down 10 a little bit. When you went over the fence, and when you 11 were in the sandy parking area, were there lights on 12 behind you? Or was it still dark? 13 A: I can't really recall. 14 Q: Okay. Okay. And I take it that you 15 and all or most of the occupiers who went over the fence 16 had weapons; is that right? 17 A: I would say the majority, I'm not too 18 sure, but I would say the majority though. 19 Q: Sure. And were the occupiers who 20 were out in the sandy parking lot over the fence, were 21 they heading towards the police? 22 A: I -- I really can't say that, I -- I 23 think they might have been just out there to -- to back 24 my brother up, I'm not too sure if they were actually 25 going to confront the police at that time or not.
721 But, like, I believe my brother he was the 2 only one out there at that time with all those police out 3 there, so that was, I would imagine, is the reason for 4 everybody that went over the fence was to -- to back him 5 up. 6 Q: Sure. And I take it when you -- 7 because you were lagging behind a bit, by the time you 8 got over the fence, could you see Stewart? 9 A: No, I -- well I wouldn't be able to 10 recognize where he was, no. 11 Q: Okay. Because you couldn't recognize 12 where he was because it was dark or because there were 13 people in front of you, or both? 14 A: Well I -- I would say a combination 15 of both of those. 16 Q: Okay. And were you fairly close to 17 the -- to the back of the -- of the occupiers? 18 A: Yeah, I -- I would say I would be 19 towards -- more towards the back of them than they were. 20 Q: Okay. Okay. And I take it from what 21 you said then, that it was dark enough at that time that 22 it was difficult to see who was in the front of the 23 occupiers group? 24 A: Well, I -- I don't think there was -- 25 anybody really would have had enough time to -- to
731 distinguish or -- or recognize anybody. 2 Q: Okay. Okay. And I think you had 3 told us that at that -- and we'll call this the first 4 confrontation, if that's okay, just so that -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- there's some language that we 7 have, so, the first confrontation is when your brother 8 goes over the fence, or you understand he goes over the 9 fence, and the other occupiers, including yourself, 10 follow him -- 11 A: Well -- it -- it really wasn't -- it 12 -- it -- well there was no hitting going on, I don't 13 believe anybody hit anybody at that first skirmish. It 14 was just simply that we were rushed and we retreated 15 right back into the fence. I don't believe there was any 16 striking -- anybody striking each other at that time. 17 Q: Okay. So when you, just so I 18 understand then, so when you go out to the sandy parking 19 lot area, you and the other occupiers, and I take it 20 there would have been about twenty (20) of you? 21 A: Approximately, yes. 22 Q: Yes. The police rushed towards you; 23 is that right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And at that point in time the police
741 didn't hit you? The police didn't strike you that you 2 saw? 3 A: I didn't recognize no striking, no. 4 Q: Did you hear any crashing of sticks 5 or any -- anything like that? Any breaking of shields? 6 A: No, I -- I believe we just simply 7 retreated back into the -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- over the fence. 10 Q: Okay. And so, once you were back in 11 the Park, where did the police go? 12 A: They went back out to the tarmac -- 13 Q: Okay. So they -- 14 A: -- around -- around that -- 15 Q: Or around there. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: So they were either on the tarmac, 18 and by the tarmac you mean -- 19 A: Yeah, on -- 20 Q: -- they were sort of on that corner 21 of East Parkway and Army Camp Road? 22 A: Yeah, they'd be in that vicinity, 23 yes. 24 Q: Okay. And up until that point in -- 25 and so as soon as you went back into the Park, the police
751 retreated; is that right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Now, I anticipate that we'll 4 hear some evidence from OPP Officers that the occupiers 5 were throwing stones and were throwing burning wood at 6 them. Did you see occupiers throw stones or burning wood 7 at the police? 8 A: At that first confrontation, like -- 9 like I said, I just -- just told you, I don't think there 10 was any hitting or striking. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I'd -- I'd have to say no on -- 13 Q: At -- at that -- 14 A: Personally, I -- I didn't see that, 15 no. 16 Q: Okay. Once you got back behind the 17 fence, after the first confrontation, did you or the 18 other occupiers start throwing stones or throwing burning 19 wood or other objects at the police? 20 A: I -- I don't -- I don't think so. 21 Q: No? 22 A: Again, it was a -- we were pretty 23 occupied. I believe that was when we were trying to 24 figure out who -- who was missing, who was -- who the 25 OPPs had out there on the tarmac, beating. They was
761 beating -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- they were -- I was preoccupied and 4 -- in trying to figure that out, I guess. 5 Q: Okay. And you said when you got back 6 into the Park, there was a head count. Did you do the 7 head count or did somebody else do the head count? 8 A: I -- I think it was a group effort. 9 Everybody was trying to figure out who was -- who was 10 missing there. I don't think there was actually one (1) 11 person going around trying to figure that out. I -- I 12 guess it was just a -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- a result of a -- a group effort, I 15 guess. 16 Q: Okay. Now in terms of -- Ms. Vella 17 had asked you some questions about people who were in the 18 Park and I just wanted to go back and ask you from your 19 recollection, on the evening of September the 6th, and by 20 the evening, I mean after 8:00 when it's -- you know, 21 starting to get dark or it's getting dark. 22 Do you recall whether Les Jewel was in the 23 Park? Do you recall seeing him? 24 A: I -- I believe he was there sometime 25 during that day but --
771 Q: Okay. 2 A: Well -- or that evening, but I -- I 3 don't -- I don't think he was in the confrontations. 4 Q: Okay. And how about Russ Jewel? 5 A: He was around there. And -- but 6 again, I -- I'm not too sure if he was in the 7 confrontations. 8 Q: Okay. And Marlin Simon told us that 9 he had brought a person back from the barracks into the 10 Park called Wayne, someone from Indiana. Did you know 11 Wayne or were you familiar with him? 12 A: I have met him. 13 Q: Okay. And was he one (1) of the 14 people that was in the confrontation? 15 A: I can't really remember. 16 Q: Okay. And was Buck Doxtator one of 17 the people that was in the confrontation? 18 A: I believe so, yes. 19 Q: Okay. And was Gabriel Doxtator one 20 of the people in the confrontation? 21 A: I believe so. 22 Q: Okay. And Robert Isaac was? 23 A: Yes, he was. 24 Q: Okay. And was Sam Isaac one (1) of 25 the people in the confrontation?
781 A: No, he wasn't. 2 Q: No? And was Ed Isaac one (1) of the 3 people in the confrontation? 4 A: No, he wasn't. 5 Q: No? Were -- had you seen either Sam 6 or Ed in the Park on September 4, 5 or 6? 7 A: Not -- not that I recall. They -- 8 they could have been, I -- I don't know. 9 Q: Okay. And we also heard about a 10 person called Dutchie French. Do you -- do you -- are 11 you familiar with Dutchie French? 12 A: I -- I didn't know him at the time, 13 but he was there in the Park at the time but again, I 14 don't -- I don't know. I never seen him personally. He 15 might have been there but I can't -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- tell you for sure. 18 Q: Okay. Do I take it then that he 19 wasn't one of the people in the confrontation? 20 A: Like I said, I can't tell you for -- 21 Q: Can't -- can't -- 22 A: -- sure. 23 Q: -- recall? Okay. How about Al 24 George, was he one of the people in the confrontation? 25 A: I believe so, but --
791 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- again, I'm not too sure about 3 that. 4 Q: Okay. And how about Chuck George? 5 A: Chuckie, I -- I believe he was 6 involved. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: But again, I -- I'm not too sure. 9 Q: Okay. And I think Marlin Simon had 10 told us that there were about five (5) other outsiders, 11 that is people from Reservations that weren't Stoney 12 Point or Kettle Point that were in the Park. 13 And I'm wondering if you can help me if 14 there were any other outsiders, that is, not Stoney Point 15 or Kettle Point people that were at the Park on September 16 6th and that were in the confrontation? 17 A: That -- that's hard to guess. That's 18 even hard to say. Up until a week and a half ago, I 19 thought my nephew Mikey was there and I found out he 20 wasn't, by himself, so there -- there's a lot of 21 confusion and a lot of people that were in and out of the 22 Park that day, could have been in that confrontation, 23 like I said, it was dark and -- 24 Q: Sure. 25 A: -- I didn't really bother taking --
801 taking the time to -- to find out who was there. 2 Q: Okay. So when the head count was 3 being done, can you help us with who was in that area 4 when the head count was being done after you got back 5 into the Park? 6 A: Well, Dudley was there, I -- I can't 7 tell you exactly who was there, still to this very day. 8 Dave was there. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: My boy was there. Whether he was in 11 the -- in the actual confrontation or not, I don't know. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I thought Kevin Simon was there. I'm 14 not too sure. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: My brother Judas was there. 17 Q: So Roderick George was there? 18 A: Yeah. I thought my brother Robbie 19 was there, too, but he wasn't. I just found that out 20 about a month ago. 21 Q: Okay. And when -- when you say you 22 found that out about a month ago, when you've talked a 23 little bit about realizing after the fact that Mike 24 and -- 25 A: Oh, yes --
811 Q: -- Mike, you mean -- 2 A: Pardon? 3 Q: By Mike, I take it you mean Mike 4 Cloud? 5 A: No, my brother, Robbie. 6 Q: Right. And earlier you said that you 7 had thought Mike Cloud -- Mike was there and you found 8 out he -- 9 A: Oh yeah, he -- 10 Q: -- wasn't. 11 A: Yeah, he was there later on. I found 12 out that was he was one -- one of the ones that were 13 missing. We -- we didn't come up with his name at the 14 time of the head count but he was missing then, too. 15 Q: Okay, when you say he was "missing", 16 what does that mean? 17 A: He -- he wasn't there. I guess, when 18 we took the -- 19 Q: He wasn't there. 20 A: -- took the count there -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- so there was actually, I think, 23 two (2) people missing at that time. 24 Q: Okay. Missing meaning that they 25 had --
821 A: They weren't on our side of the 2 fence. 3 Q: Okay. They were people who had been 4 there when the confrontation started? 5 A: I believe so, yeah. 6 Q: And after the first confrontation, 7 they weren't there any more? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: To my knowledge. 11 Q: Okay. And you said that you talked 12 to your brother, Robbie, recently about -- and you found 13 out he hadn't been there? 14 A: No, I -- I asked him if he -- 15 Q: Sure. 16 A: -- if he -- the co-counsel ever got a 17 hold of him to talk to him about the confrontation that 18 night and he told me that he wasn't there. I thought he 19 was there. 20 Q: Okay, okay. Have you talked to other 21 people from the group, from the occupiers' group who were 22 there that night about what happened that night? 23 A: No, we -- we've never, ever had a -- 24 a group meeting to discuss or even clarify what happened 25 that night. We've never had a meeting together as a
831 group to -- to try figure out what really happened. That 2 never -- never did take place. We -- we talked about 3 trying to have something like that, but it never 4 happened. 5 Q: Okay. Have you talked to different 6 individuals who were there that night about what 7 happened? 8 A: Oh yeah. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: So you said that -- just to go back 14 to the Park on the night of September the 6th, after the 15 first confrontation when you and the other occupiers are 16 back in the Park, you said that a head count was done and 17 that two (2) people were missing, okay? 18 And what I was trying to understand is by 19 a "head count" do you mean someone that -- that people 20 were being counted as numbers, or do you mean that people 21 were looking around to see -- 22 A: As -- as -- trying to find out the -- 23 the name of the -- the people who were missing. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Who was missing.
841 Q: Okay, okay. And I take it that your 2 view was that there were or should have been, twenty (20) 3 people. 4 A: Approximately. 5 Q: Yeah, okay. 6 A: Well, at that time. 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: Nobody really knew how much people 9 was there. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: So, it was -- was just a -- I guess, 12 a gathering of information is -- is -- if I knew somebody 13 that was there earlier, is he there now? 14 Q: Right. 15 A: Type of thing. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: Like that. 18 Q: Sure. Now one of the questions that 19 I meant to ask, and I'm sorry to go back, because it gets 20 confusing after a while, was you talked about in the 21 first confrontation that the police charged the occupiers 22 and you went back into the Park. 23 Can you give us some idea about when the 24 police charged the occupiers? How close did they come to 25 the fence? Were they right at the fence or near --
851 A: When we went back into the fence, I 2 believe they came right -- real close to the fence, you 3 know, three (3), four (4), five (5) feet -- close. 4 Q: Three (3), four (4) or five (5) feet 5 to the fence? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And then they backed off once 8 you were in the Park? 9 A: Yeah, they went back to the tarmac 10 and back into the formation. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I can't remember if that was one line 13 or two (2) lines at that time, like -- I'm not sure. 14 Q: Okay. And you told us then that you 15 were -- you and the others were looking around and you 16 saw someone out in the sandy parking area that you say 17 was being beaten by police. And I wanted to ask you some 18 questions about that. 19 A: Somebody knew -- 20 Q: Sorry, on the tarmac. 21 A: -- somebody knew that they had 22 somebody. 23 Q: Okay. So somebody said something? 24 A: Yeah, that's it, that was the reason 25 we were trying to find out -- well that was the reason
861 for -- I guess what I call a head count was trying to 2 find out who that person was. 3 Q: Okay. I understand that. And I 4 think you told us that the person was out on the tarmac, 5 is that right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And by tarmac you've told us 8 that that's the road here. 9 A: Asphalt. 10 Q: The asphalt. So the road area, the 11 East Park Drive and the Army Camp Road curve area, is 12 that right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And can you estimate for us about how 15 far away that -- that spot would have been from the fence 16 or from the fence line at the Park? 17 A: I'm bad at these estimates. 18 Q: And I wonder if -- 19 A: It could be a hundred (100) feet, I - 20 - I don't know. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Give or take -- 23 Q: Give or take some, about a hundred 24 (100). 25 A: -- fifty (50) or a hundred (100),
871 yeah. 2 Q: Yeah. Okay. And was it dark at the 3 time when you were looking out across the sandy parking 4 lot to the road? 5 A: Yeah, it was dark out. It -- it 6 wasn't dark enough that -- that you couldn't make images 7 of -- of bodies out and -- and like I said we did have 8 spotlights and that were -- I'm not really too sure if 9 those were being used at the time or not. 10 Q: Okay. I take it if the spotlights 11 weren't on and if this person on the tarmac was a hundred 12 (100) or so feet away, that it would be very difficult to 13 see anything? 14 A: Well to -- to a degree I guess. 15 Q: Okay. And when -- can you -- can you 16 help us understand what you see? Did you see shadowy 17 figures, did you see sort of blurred figures? How well 18 could you see? 19 A: I -- I can't remember. I -- I knew 20 they were lined up -- I could see -- I could see the -- 21 the seven (7), eight (8) or nine (9) police. It wasn't 22 that dark that I couldn't see them around Bernard beating 23 him. It wasn't that dark. 24 Q: Okay. Well, then let's just go back 25 a little bit. I think you had told us earlier -- last
881 day that there were around thirty (30) police officers 2 that came down the road? Is that right? 3 A: At least, yeah. 4 Q: At least? 5 A: It could have been more, yeah. 6 Q: It could be more than that. Okay. 7 And I think you told us after the first confrontation 8 that the police went back to the tarmac area, is that 9 right? 10 A: Yeah, yeah. 11 Q: Yeah. Now -- so there would have 12 been at least thirty (30) and maybe more people on the 13 tarmac area, right? 14 A: With shields, yes. 15 Q: Right. And so there would have been 16 quite a few people and they had gear, big gear, the 17 shields? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Now where were the police 20 standing on the tarmac after that first confrontation? 21 A: They would be approximately lined up 22 -- lined up around in this area here. 23 Q: Okay. And what you're using the 24 pointer to show on the Stan Thompson diagram is you're 25 showing a line that goes essentially east of the curve of
891 Army Camp Road and East Parkway, sort of right on the 2 edge between the sandy parking lot and the pavement? 3 Right? 4 And the only reason I'm saying that is 5 because the Court Reporter can't take down hand signals, 6 so I'm trying to put in words what you've shown us and I 7 just want to make sure that was right. 8 A: Well, what -- what I could from my 9 position -- I might have -- might not have -- it's 10 possible that I might not have seen -- seen more police 11 this way, because we were looking this way. There -- 12 there could have been more down this way or there could 13 have been more down that way. I'm not -- I'm not too 14 sure about that. 15 Q: Sure. But what you've showed us with 16 your pointer is that, essentially, across the access to 17 the sandy parking lot -- 18 A: Yes, yes. 19 Q: -- there were police lined up. 20 A: Well, towards the tarmac, yes. 21 Q: Right. And at that point in time when 22 you were looking out, where were you standing? Do you 23 recall? 24 A: I -- I'd be behind the fence there. 25 Like -- like I said, we -- we did get chased back over
901 the fence in -- in -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- in that area. 4 Q: Okay. And you're pointing to the -- 5 to the Stan Thompson diagram to the fence line and I 6 think you've pointed somewhere around the area that's 7 marked on there as turnstile? 8 A: Well, again, I -- I don't know if I 9 was standing near the turnstile. I was behind the fence. 10 Q: Okay. Somewhere in the area of the 11 turnstile -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- or -- or the gate, that kind of 14 thing. Is that right? 15 A: Behind the fence, anyways. 16 Q: Right. Okay. Now, one (1) of the 17 things that's marked on Stan Thompson's map -- and you 18 see that on the south end of the parking -- sandy parking 19 lot, there's a little area that looks like -- it looks 20 like it's marked as sand dune? Do you see that? 21 A: This -- this here? 22 Q: Yeah. Yeah. Is -- is -- is that -- 23 is that a sand dune or a -- a mound, a hill of some sort 24 there? 25 A: I don't think that -- that was there
911 at that time. 2 Q: You don't think that was there on 3 September the 6th? 4 A: I -- I don't think so. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: This was, like, cement blocks. They 7 weren't there either. 8 Q: Okay. When -- when -- when is it that 9 you think that that hill or that mound of sand got there? 10 A: I -- I have no idea. 11 Q: Okay. Do you think that it was -- 12 A: Well, as far as those cement blocks, 13 the -- the -- well, I wouldn't call them cement blocks, 14 but they are -- are huge pieces of cement, I -- I 15 remember after -- after the Oneidas showed up, we -- we 16 were given points in the area to -- to -- to look out for 17 -- for things to happen or whatever -- anything to 18 happen. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I was down there and -- and -- and 21 they had been -- they had been moving blocks -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- down the road. 24 Q: Okay. Now, when you said, "When the 25 Oneidas showed up", who -- who are you referring to?
921 A: Peacekeepers. 2 Q: Okay. And who were the peacekeepers 3 that you're referring to? 4 A: Oneida. 5 Q: Okay. Did they have names? 6 A: Pardon? 7 Q: What were their names? 8 A: I -- I hardly knew any Oneidas. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I -- you know -- 11 Q: Okay. So, you don't know the names of 12 the peacekeepers? 13 A: Well, no -- no, I don't. 14 Q: Okay. And did the Oneidas show up on 15 September the 6th? 16 A: No, they didn't. They showed up much 17 later than that. I think it might have been two (2) or 18 three (3) days after that. 19 Q: Okay. So, sometime around the 9th or 20 the 10th? 21 A: I really can't tell you, but it was 22 after. 23 Q: Okay, after. And at that point in 24 time, you said they were giving you directions for what 25 to look out for? Where people could come in to the Park?
931 A: Who? 2 Q: The Oneida? 3 A: They weren't even there, then. 4 Q: No, no -- 5 A: They were there after. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: This -- this was to secure Aazhoodena 8 -- Stoney Point. 9 Q: Okay. So, the Oneida -- sometime 10 after September the 6th, when the Oneida came, they gave 11 you and other people, I take it, instructions on how to 12 secure the Park? 13 A: The whole territory of -- 14 Q: The whole -- 15 A: -- Aazhoodena/Stoney Point. They were 16 to watch the Park; we were to watch Moses Hill and the 17 highway. 18 Q: Okay. So the whole area was divvied 19 up and people had directions about what to do? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Okay. So, and I'm sorry for 22 that interruption. So, you were telling us that you were 23 behind the fence. You were showing us that the police 24 were lined up along the edge of the tarmac or just on the 25 edge of the sandy parking lot along the curve of East
941 Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road, sort of across the 2 whole face of the access to the sandy parking lot. Is 3 that right? 4 A: Yeah. Right there, yes. 5 Q: Okay. And you told us yesterday, and 6 I just want to check and make sure, where was it that you 7 saw the person being beaten? 8 A: It would be around in this area. I 9 believe -- I believe it to be on the asphalt or - or very 10 close to it. 11 Q: Okay. Now was -- were there police 12 officers in front of the person that -- and what I mean 13 by that was -- was the line of police that was along that 14 curve of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road, was that 15 line of police officers in front of the person who was 16 being beaten; that is, were they standing between you and 17 the person who was being beaten? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: Okay. So I take it, then, there 20 would have been thirty (30) or more, potentially, people 21 standing in that area in front of the person being 22 beaten? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. So there would have been many 25 people, then, between you and the person who was being
951 beaten? 2 A: Well in one (1) of my statements, 3 there, yes, I did say there was a lot of legs. 4 Q: Okay. And so what you could see, you 5 could only see through gaps between people and people's 6 legs and that kind of thing? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And you also told us a little 9 bit, yesterday, and you drew on the map where the van 10 was, and I just wanted to make sure that I understood 11 what -- what you were saying about the location of the 12 van, and by the van I mean the police van that you said 13 pulled up and parked behind the officers. 14 And you drew us a picture yesterday and, 15 as I recall, your picture was that the van was pulled up 16 and parked just at the corner of East Parkway Drive and 17 Army Camp Road? Is that right? 18 A: Along the bend, the curve. 19 Q: Along the bend of the curve. And 20 what -- 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just -- just to clarify 22 for the record, the -- the van, I believe you're talking 23 about the SIU diagram that was already prepared, are you 24 not? 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Hmm hmm.
961 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Not that he drew 2 yesterday? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: I just wanted to ask 4 him -- 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah, no I just -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Whether -- 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just to clarify the 8 record, you said the diagram that he drew -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Oh, okay. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- yesterday, and I 11 believe he was referring to the diagram that was entered 12 as an exhibit that was attached to the SIU statement. 13 Just for the record. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 16 Ms. Vella. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: P-74. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: And I take it that that van was then 22 parked behind the line of police officers, so the police 23 officers were between you and the van? 24 A: Well, I would imagine so because -- 25 Q: Yeah.
971 A: I didn't see no police getting run 2 over. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: I would imagine so -- 5 Q: Right. 6 A: -- because I didn't see no police 7 moving out of the way or getting runned over. 8 Q: Right, okay. Now, do you recall 9 whether you saw that person who you say was being beaten 10 by the police being put into the van? 11 A: Yeah, he was -- he was being thrown 12 into the van at that time. I -- I believe that -- that 13 we were already over the fence, attempting to go stop 14 that beating. At that time was -- was -- the police 15 would have been coming back towards us for the second 16 confrontation. 17 Q: Okay. Now, do you -- do you actually 18 recall today when you saw the person being put into the 19 police van? 20 A: Well, we knew where he was -- I 21 didn't see him actually get thrown in there but the van 22 that came around. I -- I can't even remember if it was 23 white or black. I think it might have been -- might have 24 been white. We knew that was -- was there -- shortly 25 after is the second confrontation's going to happen I
981 guess. 2 Q: Okay. And the reason I'm asking you 3 is because on September the 10th of 1997, you had 4 interview with the SIU, do you recall that? 5 A: I recall that interview, no date 6 though. 7 Q: Okay. And I want to refer you to 8 something that you said to the SIU and if you want to 9 find that in your book I can turn you to the page or I 10 can read to you what it says. I don't -- whichever is 11 easiest for you. 12 A: Listen. 13 Q: Okay. And this is in the Document 14 Number 1004562 and it's the document that says 15 Anticipated Evidence of Elwood Tracy George, dated 16 September the 10th, 1997. That's at your Tab 7 and on 17 page 9 of that Document there's a question from a Mr. 18 Miur and it says: 19 "And when did you see them go from -- 20 you say you saw them going towards the 21 van, or did the van pull up and they -" 22 And then you say: 23 "Yeah, when we were going out for that 24 second skirmish to get them back in 25 that van came up, turned around and
991 they threw him in." 2 And what Mr. Miur says is: 3 "You saw them throw this person in the 4 van." 5 And you say: 6 "Yeah." 7 A: I'll say it -- again, this is a lot 8 of time in between this and -- 9 Q: No, for sure. Yeah. 10 A: No, there is things that I am going 11 to forget and there's things that I am going to remember. 12 Q: Oh, Mr. George, I absolutely 13 understand that. All I -- all I -- all I've done is I've 14 had a chance to read what's -- what you said in the past. 15 A: All I could do is -- is really do the 16 best at what I could remember to answer your questions. 17 Q: Absolutely. But I take in 1997 when 18 you were talking to the SIU and you told them that as you 19 were going out for the second confrontation, you saw the 20 person getting thrown in the van. I take it you would -- 21 A: I -- I guess I just plain forgot. 22 But I knew the van was there. 23 Q: Sure. 24 A: Even then I probably didn't -- 25 wouldn't be able to elaborate on the colour but --
1001 Q: No. 2 A: -- I do think it might have been 3 white but then I'm not too sure. 4 Q: Okay. Okay. But what -- what I'm 5 trying to get at though is that in 1997 when you spoke to 6 the SIU, the sequence of events that you told them was 7 that you were coming out for the second confrontation, 8 you saw the person being put in the van as you were 9 coming out. 10 A: Yeah. It could be during. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: It could be after they started coming 13 towards us that van came around. Because like I said 14 they were standing on that tarmac or close to it. 15 Q: Right. Sure. 16 A: That van turned around. With them on 17 that tarmac that van wouldn't be able to turn around like 18 that without hitting any of those police officers. So 19 they would have to be into the sand by that time already. 20 Q: Okay. And did you see the person 21 being put in the van? 22 A: I can't recall to this day. No. 23 Q: Okay. And in September of 1997, as I 24 say, you told the SIU that you did see the person being 25 put in the van.
1011 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Now you say then what -- that 3 there was a second confrontation and I think you told us 4 that you and the remaining people which I take would have 5 been nineteen (19) people -- 6 A: Yes. Well, around -- 7 Q: Around there, went out into the sandy 8 parking lot area. 9 A: In an attempt to stop the beating, 10 yes. 11 Q: Sure. And you told us that you had a 12 weapon? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: Yeah. And I take it that all of, or 15 most of, the other occupiers had weapons? 16 A: I would imagine so. 17 Q: Sure. And I take it that when you 18 came over the fence with your weapons, you then went 19 towards the police? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: Okay. And you started fighting with 22 the police. 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: Okay. And at that point in time, it 25 was -- I would assume that it was a pretty hectic few
1021 minutes in the middle -- 2 A: If -- 3 Q: -- of the fight? 4 A: -- if it was a few minutes. 5 Q: If it -- or less. It was a short 6 period of time and I take it it was very, very hectic? 7 A: It seemed to be very, very fast, yes. 8 Q: Yeah. Yeah. And there were lots of - 9 - there was lots of activity going on at that time? 10 A: Yes, there was. 11 Q: And you told us that you yelled for 12 the bus at that point in time? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: Okay. And you told the Commissioner 15 yesterday that in your view, the bus was to help stop the 16 beating of the person that you had seen on the tarmac? 17 A: Well, again, that -- that -- the use 18 of the bus was -- was never ever talked about. And -- 19 and we were attempting to -- to stop that beating. 20 Q: Sure. Sure, but when you yelled for 21 the bus, you told the Commissioner it was because you 22 wanted to help stop the beating. Right? 23 A: It was for -- for -- for help, yes. 24 Q: Right. And I'm going to suggest to 25 you, Mr. George, that if what you said to the SIU in 1997
1031 was accurate, that the person had already been loaded 2 into the van at or about the time that you and others 3 were coming over the fence for the second confrontation? 4 Isn't that right? 5 A: Well, I -- again, it -- it was busy. 6 I'd imagine that -- that would be fairly accurate, maybe. 7 Q: Sure. And I'm going to suggest to 8 then, that at or about the time that you came over the 9 fence for the second confrontation, that person was no 10 longer being beaten, that person was already in the van. 11 A: Well, that is only my observation. 12 Q: Sure. 13 A: I -- I can't tell you what anybody 14 else seen. 15 Q: Sure. I'm just asking -- 16 A: But -- 17 Q: -- you what your observations were. 18 A: -- the confrontation was already going 19 on, I believe, when he was getting throwed in the back of 20 the van, so there was very little time for anybody to 21 think about anything at that time. 22 Q: No, no. I understand that. I -- it - 23 - it just seems to me, though, from what you've said that 24 when you were out and in the middle of the second 25 confrontation, that things were happening very fast and
1041 there was a lot of activity. 2 I have a hard time believing that in the 3 midst of that, you would have been able to check and see 4 what was going on in the van. 5 A: Well, I -- I believe so, too. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: Like, I -- I agree with you. 8 Q: Right. So, what I'm suggesting to you 9 is, if you saw the person being put in the van, it would 10 have been before you actually had the confrontation with 11 the police? 12 A: Not really. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Like I said, the police were already 15 coming towards us, right? 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: The van had to have time to come down 18 the road after the police were coming to us and it could 19 be on my part that it was only an assumption that they 20 were throwing him in there. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: I -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- can't really explain that. 25 Q: Today you can't?
1051 A: Well, he wasn't there when the 2 confrontation was done. 3 Q: Sure. And I'm going to suggest to you 4 that once that person had been put in the van, you didn't 5 see him again for the rest of the night? 6 A: No. I -- I -- I don't remember seeing 7 the van pulling away, either. 8 Q: Sure. And I'm going -- do you recall 9 when you gave evidence at Nick Cottrelle's trial that you 10 were asked some questions about your yelling for the bus? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. Now, if you want to check your 13 book of documents to follow along with me, I'm not sure 14 where that is in your book, but it is the Nick Cottrelle 15 trial transcript I'm looking at, and that was from March 16 27th, 1998, and for the assistance of the Commission, 17 it's Document Number 300847. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And if you turn to Page 52 of that 22 transcript and you're welcome to read along and I'm also 23 happy to read it out loud, Mr. George, if it's easier. 24 On Page 52 of that document there's a question from Mr. 25 Van Droonan (phonetic) and it says:
1061 "My question was, at that time you 2 didn't see that it was Nicholas 3 Cottrelle that was driving the bus". 4 And the answer is: 5 "No, no." 6 Question: 7 "It's something that you heard after 8 everything that was all over?" 9 The answer is: 10 "Yes". 11 Question: 12 "And the reason that you wanted the bus 13 brought out was why?" 14 And the answer is: 15 "Because we were getting outnumbered. 16 I don't know about you, but I don't 17 like getting the shit kicked out of 18 me". 19 Question: 20 "And you figure it would be more fair 21 if you had the bus on your side, so to 22 speak?" 23 Answer: 24 "Get them off our ass anyway. Get them 25 down the road. I wasn't out there to
1071 kill anybody or anything like that". 2 Do you recall giving that evidence at Nick 3 Cottrelle's trial? 4 A: I must have gave it, yes. 5 Q: Okay. And I'm just going to suggest 6 to you that the only reason that you gave at that time 7 for yelling for the bus was because you and the other 8 occupiers were being outnumbered by the police and you 9 didn't like getting the shit kicked out of you. 10 A: Well I -- at that time I -- I believe 11 somebody else yelled for the bus to come out too, before 12 I -- I started yelling. 13 Q: Sure. 14 A: So, I started yelling also, yes. 15 Q: Sure. And it was because you were in 16 the fight with the police and you were getting the shit 17 kicked out of you and you needed some help. 18 A: Well, I wouldn't say getting the shit 19 kicked out of me, but we were -- we were very badly 20 outnumbered, yes. 21 Q: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 23 Vella...? 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think in fairness, My 25 Friend has put quite accurately the questions and answers
1081 to the witness, but earlier in his testimony at Page 42, 2 he was asked the following questions and gave the 3 following answers. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is at 5 Page 42? 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Of the transcript of -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- Nick Cottrelle, 9 about half way down. He's being examined about the 10 second skirmish. 11 "So where did you end up after this 12 confrontation with the police?" 13 Answer: 14 "Well, then we had the bus come out. I 15 was yelling. I don't know if anybody 16 else was yelling to get the bus out 17 here, you know. Hoping that it would 18 back the police off of us". 19 Question: 20 "And what was your purpose in wanting 21 the bus to come out". 22 Answer: 23 "Well, Bernard was getting badly 24 beaten. That's why we were out there. 25 We were getting outnumbered. We were
1091 going to stop them from beating 2 Slippery up -- or Bernard." 3 "And did you say anything in particular 4 to cause the bus to come out?" 5 Answer: 6 "No, I just yelled to get the bus out. 7 I don't know if anybody else yelled." 8 And then he continues, and I think just in 9 fairness, for the record, that part of the transcript 10 should also be read in at this time. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: And do you recall giving evidence at 16 Ken Deane's trial? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And I wanted to take you to an 19 excerpt from the transcript of that. I don't know where 20 it is in your book but it's the Ken Deane trial 21 transcript. It's dated April 2, 1997. 22 It's in your book, I think it's Tab 4 and 23 for the assistance of Counsel, it's Document 1005291. 24 And there's a question there, are you -- are you on the 25 page?
1101 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What page is 2 it? 3 THE WITNESS: Which page? 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 6 Q: Page 125. 7 A: Page 125. 8 Q: Okay. And you'll see that's a 9 question that says: 10 "Okay? Now, the school bus comes out 11 and it starts to go down East Parkway 12 Drive; is that correct? 13 Answer: Yes, in that direction. 14 Question: In that direction. Now, 15 what effect does the school bus have 16 on, first of all, your group, the 17 Stoney Point group? What do you guys 18 do?" 19 And the answer is: 20 "Me, myself, I thought that it was good 21 because there were so few of us and 22 there were so many of them, that they 23 backed down the road. 24 Question: Okay. 25 Answer: And that was the end of the
1111 confrontation, like, with us." 2 Okay? And then, if you turn to page 137 3 of that transcript, you're being asked some questions 4 there about the bus. And I'm looking about partway down 5 the page. And there's a question that says: 6 "Well, then we'll have to go back and 7 say that it was a big bus; isn't it? 8 Answer: Pardon? 9 Question: A big bus? 10 Answer: Normal size, I guess. 11 Question: Normal size school bus?" 12 The answer is: 13 "Yeah. 14 Question: You yelled for that bus to 15 go out there; didn't you? 16 Answer: I was one (1) of the persons 17 that yelled, yeah. 18 Question: Why? 19 Answer: Pardon? 20 Question: Why? 21 Answer: To get -- excuse the language 22 -- to get the cops off our ass." 23 Do you recall that? 24 A: Oh, yes. 25 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to
1121 you that the reason that you yelled for the bus was 2 because you were losing your fight with the police? 3 A: Well, yeah. That would be a big part 4 of it, yes. 5 Q: Yeah. Okay. Now, I think you had 6 told us that you didn't see the van pull away; is that 7 right? 8 A: No, I didn't. 9 Q: Okay. And you didn't see where it 10 went? 11 A: I -- I believe it -- it turned 12 around, it came from East Parkway, and I -- I believe it 13 -- it turned around. So it was facing backwards, that 14 way -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- if I remember correctly. 17 Q: So, by that, I assume, what I -- what 18 I hear you say then is that you assumed it -- when it 19 left, it must have gone down East Parkway because that's 20 the -- 21 A: Yeah. I -- 22 Q: -- way it was headed? 23 A: -- I would imagine so, yes. 24 Q: Yeah. Okay. And you also told us 25 that you never saw the bus come out of the Park?
1131 A: No, I -- I'd never seen the bus go 2 through the gate. I -- I didn't see it push the -- the 3 dumpster. 4 Q: Okay. And the first time you saw the 5 bus, you said, was when it was in the sandy parking lot - 6 - 7 A: Yes. In a -- 8 Q: -- is that right? 9 A: -- forward motion still. 10 Q: Okay. And when you first saw the bus 11 in the sandy parking lot, can you give us some idea about 12 where you were? 13 A: Well, I -- I viewed the bus -- I 14 would say the first time I viewed it, it would be from 15 here. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: When -- when I -- I stopped. Well, I 18 really wasn't observing the bus, but it was in a forward 19 motion. 20 Q: Okay. And where were you standing or 21 where were you when you first saw the bus? 22 A: I would have been around in this 23 area. 24 Q: Okay. And so what you're pointing 25 is, is an area that's just about in the middle of the
1141 sandy parking lot, middle both from an east-west 2 direction and a more south direction? 3 A: In that vicinity. 4 Q: Yeah. Okay. Now, when you first saw 5 the bus, were you fighting with the police or was that 6 fight -- 7 A: I -- 8 Q: -- over? 9 A: -- yeah. It was in a forward motion. 10 It would have been probably just outside the gate. We 11 were still in the confrontation, more towards the -- the 12 west -- westerly side of the sandy parking lot. 13 Q: Okay. And so when you saw the bus on 14 the sandy parking lot area then, the bus was south of 15 you? 16 A: Yes, it would be. 17 Q: Okay. And I take it then when you're 18 talking about -- 19 A: As it -- as it passed -- 20 Q: As it passed? 21 A: -- it would have been in the 22 southerly direction of -- of myself. 23 Q: Okay. And I understand, can -- sorry 24 can you just give me a bit of an idea about how far away 25 from the bus you were when it -- when you saw it pass by?
1151 A: Still it was -- I was in the same -- 2 same spot, I would be roughly right there -- 3 Q: Okay, okay. 4 A: -- because we were fighting. 5 Q: Sure. Is that ten (10) feet or 6 fifteen (15) feet away from the -- from the bus? 7 A: Again, a rough guess. 8 Q: Sure. 9 A: It could be -- it could have been 10 twenty (20) feet I guess. Maybe more, maybe -- maybe 11 less. 12 Q: Okay. And when the bus came out from 13 what you could tell, was the bus passing south or below 14 the fight? 15 A: It -- from where I was, it would have 16 been towards the south more -- a more southerly 17 direction. 18 Q: Okay. So as be -- so the bus was 19 passing as I understand from what you're saying, let me 20 just make sure. That the bus was passing below the 21 fight. 22 It was driving past people that were 23 fighting below them or south of them; is that right? 24 A: Well it would be in a more southerly 25 position than of where we were.
1161 Q: Right, okay. And I take it that you 2 then saw the bus continue to move in a westerly 3 direction, is that right? 4 A: Very slowly, yes. 5 Q: Okay. And you've told us I think 6 that that last time you saw the bus it was just on the 7 edge of the tarmac by the curve of Army Camp Parkway 8 and -- 9 A: Well, I -- I believe that that was 10 when I believe the bus to be in that position that it -- 11 it had already have been stopped and that -- that would 12 have been when I went back out after we took Dudley into 13 the gate. 14 Q: Okay. Okay. Let me just make sure I 15 understand then. The last time you saw the bus when it 16 was moving -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- where was it? 19 A: It was still moving in that southerly 20 direction. 21 Q: Had it reached the tarmac yet or was 22 it still in the sandy parking lot? 23 A: I would say it was -- it was still in 24 the sandy parking lot at that time, yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And it was headed towards the
1171 road? 2 A: In a westerly direction. 3 Q: Sure. Now did the bus coming out of 4 -- in -- in your -- from your perspective, did the bus 5 coming out of the -- across the sandy parking lot, did 6 that have any affect on the fight? 7 A: It -- it did back the police down the 8 road. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: At one (1) time. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: At one (1) time it -- well, I don't 13 know when -- like I said I never -- I wasn't observing 14 the bus as it passed me. 15 Q: Sure. 16 A: The only other time I observed that 17 bus after it passed me was after I went back out from 18 taking Dudley into the Park, I never viewed it after it 19 passed me in that westerly direction. I was preoccupied 20 with Dudley at that time. I didn't have no time to -- 21 Q: No, no. No, I understand that. But 22 my question to you is a little bit different. My 23 question to you is, you and the Occupiers and the police 24 from -- from what I understand, are north of the bus, 25 that is closer to the lake. And you've talked about the
1181 bus driving by you while you're fighting with the police. 2 And my question to you is: What, if any, 3 affect would that have had on your fighting with the 4 police? 5 A: Well, it -- it helped -- it helped 6 us. It ended that confrontation really. It ended the 7 confrontation. 8 Q: How did it end the confrontation? 9 A: It -- it -- the fighting had stopped, 10 the hitting stopped, it divi -- I guess -- I guess I 11 never, again I never viewed this. It divided us and the 12 police, I'm -- but I'm -- 13 Q: Okay. Now if the bus is driving 14 across the sandy parking lot westerly and you are -- you 15 and the -- the Occupiers and the police are engaged in a 16 fight, how would the bus divide you and the police? 17 A: Well, we -- we weren't mixed up. 18 They had, I would say there would have been some sort of 19 a dividing line, imaginary line if you will, where -- 20 where the police were here and we were here. 21 But I'm only guessing this -- is -- is 22 that is the route that bus took. You see again, I never 23 viewed that bus after it passed me. I can't tell you 24 where that bus went during its travel because the next 25 time I viewed the bus it was on a stationary position.
1191 Q: I -- I understand that. I understand 2 that. But see, the point -- the thing that I don't 3 understand from what you're saying is, is if the bus is 4 driving south of you and you are in the middle of a fight 5 with the police to the north of the bus. 6 And as it's driving by you you're actively 7 fighting with the police, it -- I don't understand how 8 that bus driving south of you would make any difference 9 to your confrontation. 10 And I'm just wondering if you can help me? 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Excuse me. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 13 Vella...? 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I 15 think that the Witness has indicated on numerous 16 occasions, now, that he didn't see the bus. He was clear 17 in his chief that when the bus went by him he considered 18 that to be the end of the confrontation. He headed back 19 to the Park. 20 Now, whether or not Counsel can understand 21 how that can be really isn't for the witness to answer. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Witness has 24 testified as to what he saw and heard and I think that to 25 pursue this any further is of very limited value.
1201 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What is your 2 point? You don't understand it, but he's given evidence 3 on this. I think we've heard a fair amount about this 4 already. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I -- 6 I take direction from you and I think the language of my 7 question could be better phrased. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Because it's obviously 10 -- doesn't matter whether I understand it or not, what 11 I'm trying to -- what I'm trying to -- the question, it 12 would be helpful for me for the Witness to answer is how 13 would the bus driving south of him make any difference to 14 the confrontation. And if he can -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not 16 the -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: No, no -- if he can -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- point 19 that's -- 20 MS. KAREN JONES: -- can answer that, he 21 can answer that, and he if can't -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 23 we've had enough of that -- 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- area. I
1211 think we should move on. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Mr. George, I'm going to suggest to 6 you that what actually happened is that the police had 7 left the sandy parking area and were heading west before 8 the bus came out of the Park. 9 A: No. 10 Q: No? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And you said in your evidence 17 yesterday, that when the bus passed you, when you were in 18 the sandy parking area, that at that point in time you 19 and the others went to the Park, went -- started heading 20 back to the Park; is that right? 21 A: No, I -- again, I can't speak for 22 everybody. I -- I would say the majority -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I didn't say everybody. 25 Q: Okay.
1221 A: Because if it was everybody then 2 there's -- the bus driver would have had to leave the 3 bus, right? So... 4 Q: No, no, fair -- fair enough. I guess 5 to make it more particular, then, when the bus passed 6 you, when you were in the sandy parking lot area, at or 7 about that time, you started heading back to the Park? 8 A: Yeah, once I got past -- 9 Q: Right. 10 A: me. 11 Q: Okay. And at that point in time, is 12 it your evidence that the police were still in the sandy 13 parking lot or that they had left the sandy parking lot? 14 A: I -- I didn't make no visual 15 observations at that time. Again, I -- I said I was 16 preoccupied in -- 17 Q: Sure. 18 A: -- helping Dudley. At that time, I 19 would have been facing south-west, not even looking in 20 that direction that you're asking me these questions to - 21 - to reply on. I wouldn't observe that. 22 I didn't observe anything in that parking 23 lot until Dudley was in that gate, till I was faced -- 24 turned around to go back out there. That would have been 25 the only other time, that I would have observed anything
1231 in that parking lot. 2 Q: Okay. So, between the time -- sorry, 3 I -- I think again my question wasn't very clear for you. 4 You told us that you saw the bus go by to the south of 5 you, when you were having the confrontation with the 6 police, -- 7 A: Well, -- 8 Q: -- and when it went by, at or about 9 that time, you started heading back to the Park; right? 10 A: Once -- once it was out of the way, 11 that I wouldn't be walking into it, yes. 12 Q: Right, okay. And -- 13 A: The bus -- the bus wasn't fifteen 14 (15) feet or twenty (20) feet away from me, it was right 15 there. 16 Q: The bus was right beside you...? 17 A: Well, I believe the bus was -- was -- 18 it was in a direction, headed in a direction where it 19 would have took Dudley on the driver's side of the bus, 20 and I would have been on the passenger's side of the bus. 21 So, in -- in that southerly direction, it would have -- 22 wouldn't have been fifteen (15) or twenty (20) feet to 23 the south of me, it would have been right there, in the 24 direction of the south. 25 Q: Okay. So, when you were in the sandy
1241 parking lot with -- having a confrontation, and the bus 2 passed by you, heading west, is it your evidence then, 3 the bus would have been -- come through the sandy parking 4 lot just beside you? 5 A: Yes, to -- it would have been -- the 6 gate is more towards the south of that fence line. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: So it -- it would have travelled that 9 route, from that gate to the edge of the tarmac. It 10 wouldn't have turned this way -- or it wouldn't have went 11 left, -- 12 Q: Okay. So what you're saying, when -- 13 A: -- it wouldn't have went right, it 14 would have went in the street path, -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- from the gate. 17 Q: So you're saying when the bus left 18 the gate, you think it would have gone in a straight 19 westerly direction? 20 A: I would imagine so, yes. 21 Q: Okay. And, okay. Now with that in 22 mind then, from your recollection, when you were fighting 23 with the police in the second confrontation, were you 24 north of the bus, that is, towards the Lake? 25 A: Yes.
1251 Q: Okay. And from what you could see, 2 were many people north of the bus in the confrontation? 3 A: I -- I would say the majority -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- of us. 6 Q: The majority of us, us being the 7 Occupiers? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And can you help us, where the police 10 were? 11 A: Again, -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I may be 13 mistaken, Ms. Jones, but I think we've been over this. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 16 we've been over this. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: Now, you've told us that when you 21 were heading back towards the Park, I think you said you 22 were headed back towards the gate; is that right? From 23 the sandy parking lot after the bus left? 24 A: Well, I -- I think I really didn't 25 care what part of the --
1261 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- the fence or the gate that I was 3 going to go back into and -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- I really didn't care. 6 Q: Okay. So you were heading back 7 towards the Park, and I think you said on the way back, 8 you heard Dudley George say that he was hit. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Is that right? And Dudley George, as 11 I take it, was standing south of you, -- 12 A: He would have been on the driver's 13 side of the bus, the bus would have divided us. So when 14 the bus went by me, and that westerly direction, -- 15 Q: Right. 16 A: -- as it passed me, if there was no 17 bus there, I -- there -- Dudley would have been there, in 18 that south -- south-westerly -- 19 Q: Right. 20 A: -- direction of where my position 21 was. 22 Q: Right. So when you turned around and 23 went back to the Park, -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- Dudley would have been to your
1271 right? And that would have been -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- the south end; right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And was there anybody 6 standing, that you could see, between you and Dudley? Or 7 did you have a clear view of him? 8 A: No, because I -- I went right -- 9 right to him. 10 Q: Okay. So, there was no one between 11 you and Dudley? 12 A: Oh, if -- if there was, they -- they 13 probably would have went to him, -- 14 Q: Sure. 15 A: -- they probably would have got to 16 him before I did. 17 Q: Okay. And was there anybody on the 18 other side of Dudley, that is, was there anybody south of 19 Dudley or around him; could you see? 20 A: I didn't make no observations, no. 21 Q: Okay. And can you give us some idea, 22 when you looked and -- looked at Dudley, about how far 23 away from you was he? 24 A: He was close, -- 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry. Excuse me.
1281 Commissioner, unless I'm mistaken, we went through this 2 very, very carefully, including how far away he was from 3 Mr. George when he saw him. 4 We have entered a map into evidence which 5 shows where he was positioned at the time that he saw 6 Dudley George. I think that My Friend is just re-going 7 through things that we've gone through in-chief. 8 If there's a question that we neglected to 9 ask or something that she wishes to challenge about the 10 answer, then of course that -- that's different. 11 But I think that we're just going through 12 the same ground that we covered in-chief. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. It's 14 difficult to know exactly what you're doing. I know you 15 know but it's difficult for us to follow it. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 18 to interrupt you or have you not be able to cross-examine 19 in your style, but I think we have gone over a lot of 20 this -- 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you have 23 something in particular -- 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you want
1291 to ask him -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: I do have something in 3 particular -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it would 5 be helpful -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: -- I want to ask him. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if you 8 did that. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: You said when you saw Dudley George 13 he was walking slowly; is that right? 14 A: No, he was -- he wasn't laying down. 15 He was upright. 16 Q: He was upright? Was he walking or 17 was he standing still? 18 A: I -- I -- I can't remember if he was 19 walking. What I do remember is when I got to him, helped 20 him, that he did take two (2), three (3), four (4) steps. 21 Q: Okay. Now do you recall testifying 22 at Ken Deane's trial about going over to help Dudley? 23 A: I -- yeah -- I -- again, I did 24 testify, yes. 25 Q: Okay. Because what I wanted to do
1301 was, I just wanted to take you through what you had told 2 the Judge at Ken Deane's trial. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And if you turn to Page 132 of that 7 transcript. 8 A: We're going backwards here. We 9 should be going ahead. 10 Q: We're -- we're moving ahead, don't 11 you worry. And you'll see part way down the page there's 12 a question: 13 "All right, and you stayed standing 14 until you got to him". 15 And the answer was: 16 "Yes, for aways back in towards the 17 gate, yes". 18 And the question was: 19 "He walked on a bit more towards the 20 gate, did he, and then he collapsed?" 21 And the answer was: 22 "About ten (10) feet, I'd say". 23 The question: 24 "Towards the gate?" 25 And the answer is:
1311 "Yes". 2 A: Again, that's only an estimate 3 Q: Sure, but you'd agree with me there's 4 a big distance -- difference between two (2) or three (3) 5 steps and ten (10) feet? 6 A: Well, yeah, that -- there is a big 7 difference. 8 Q: Okay. Now you said then, that Dudley 9 collapsed and you hollered for help and you said in your 10 evidence yesterday that one (1) person came to help you. 11 Do you recall that? 12 A: At that time, yes. 13 Q: Right. And do you recall who that 14 person was? 15 A: No, I -- I didn't even bother to 16 recognize them all as I was worried about just getting 17 Dudley into the -- 18 Q: Okay, okay. Now on Tuesday we heard 19 from your brother Stewart and he told us in his evidence 20 that when he was in the sandy parking lot he heard his 21 son say, They shot Dudley. 22 And he told us he ran in front of the bus 23 around to the driver's side and he saw Dudley lying on 24 the ground. He said that he got some help from Robert 25 Isaac and they took Dudley into the Park where he was put
1321 into the "OPP WHO?" car. 2 And, Mr. George, you are nowhere in your 3 brother's description of that part of the event. Can you 4 help us with any explanation for that? 5 A: Somebody's mixed up. It was very 6 confusing -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Scullion 8 has an objection, I'd like to hear what it is. 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: My Friend's 10 referring to testimony given by a different witness at a 11 different time regarding what he saw. It's impossible 12 for Mr. George to explain what Mr. Stewart George saw or 13 what he testified to. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He -- he can't 16 possibly explain the difference. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, he 18 can't. She's just asking him for his explanation. Let's 19 see what he has to say. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: I -- I was just asking 21 him for his explanation. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you 23 asked for his -- different people have a different 24 perspective. I -- I -- so but you're asking him go give 25 his perspective.
1331 MS. KAREN JONES: Absolutely people can 2 have and I've asked you from your perspective and I was 3 asking that if you had any -- could have any explanation 4 for why your version of events is so different from your 5 brothers. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it's 7 not necessarily different. It's not necessarily 8 different. I don't think it is necessarily different. 9 There could have been more -- more people around. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He -- didn't 12 mention him but that doesn't mean he -- he wasn't 13 involved. I don't think you can infer from that that 14 necessarily he wasn't involved, he wasn't mentioned. 15 MR. KAREN JONES: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's all 17 we can infer from the fact that he wasn't mentioned. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: Okay. So let me just make sure that 21 I understand then. When you yelled for help and one (1) 22 person came -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- did you and that one (1) other 25 person take Dudley back into the Park?
1341 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes. Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 4 not sure that it's left cleared. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's go on. 7 That's fine. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. That was the end 9 of my questions, Mr. Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that the 11 end of your -- your questions? 12 MS. KAREN JONES: That is. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 I think we're just -- we're a bit before noon but I think 15 this would be a good point to take a break because we're 16 stopping early today. We're stopping at 3:30. So I 17 think if we broke now until 1:15. Yes, Mr. Sulman? Did 18 you want to get your cross -- 19 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I did. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 21 get it in and over with? 22 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Yes, and I believe I 23 will be about ten (10) minutes at most. So that might -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So let's do 25 it.
1351 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- and I'm not sure 2 whether my -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're -- 4 you're out of order a bit because I think Mr. Downard 5 would ordinarily be next, but I'm sure he'll yield to 6 you. Will you, Mr. Downard? 7 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes. 8 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I sought that 9 earlier from him, Your Honour. So I don't anticipate 10 being too long, Mr. Commissioner. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 13 Q: Mr. George, good morning. My name is 14 Douglas Sulman and I represent Marcel Beaubien who is the 15 MPP for the Ipperwash area back in 1995. I've just got a 16 few question for you. 17 This week you gave evidence that your 18 father Abraham George, told you that his brother Fletcher 19 was buried inside the Provincial Park, correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Thank you. When did your father tell 22 you this? 23 A: I -- I've heard that on and off ever 24 since I was small. 25 Q: Okay. And do you know whether your
1361 father spoke to your siblings, your brothers and your 2 sisters on this same topic? 3 A: I talked to a lot of people about a 4 lot of things. It's not too far out of the ordinary for, 5 you know, I -- 6 Q: To believe this. 7 A: -- yes, that he did. 8 Q: And yesterday you told us your father 9 passed away after 1995, right? 10 A: 2000 or 2001? 11 Q: Well, that's what I wanted to know. 12 What Year. 13 A: Yes. Yes. 14 Q: Which year, sir? 15 A: 2000 I think or 2001. 16 Q: Okay. And your Uncle Fletcher, was 17 he younger or older than your father? 18 A: I think he would have been younger. 19 Q: Okay. And did Fletcher have any 20 children? 21 A: Oh, I -- I don't think so. 22 Q: No? You told Ms. Jones just a little 23 while ago that you didn't know what year your Uncle 24 Fletcher died in, correct? 25 A: No.
1371 Q: Okay. Do you know how old he was 2 when he died? 3 A: No. He -- he would have been young. 4 Q: Young. Can you give me a range? 5 A: I think he was younger than my 6 father. 7 Q: Well, your father was in his 80's. 8 So can you give me an age range where your father would 9 have been? 10 A: No, I can't. 11 Q: Okay. Was he a teenager or was he an 12 adult, do you know? 13 A: I -- I don't know. 14 Q: Okay. Do you know whether he died 15 prior to 1937? 16 A: I never ever heard dates. 17 Q: Do you know whether he died prior to 18 the Provincial Government setting up the Provincial Park? 19 A: I would imagine so. He -- he -- my 20 dad said he was buried in the Park. It would have had to 21 been before they made it. 22 Q: Did your father make it specific when 23 he told you that he was buried in the Park, that your 24 uncle was buried prior to the Park being established? 25 A: Not that I could recall, no.
1381 Q: Okay. We heard evidence from Darlene 2 Johnston; you were present in the room during some of 3 that evidence? 4 A: I believe so. 5 Q: Okay. And we heard from Darlene 6 Johnston about the importance of burial ceremonies. And 7 we also heard from her, and we learned at the Indigenous 8 Knowledge Seminar, which you were present at, about that 9 same topic? 10 A: The forum? 11 Q: The forum, yes. You -- were you 12 present? 13 A: Yes, I was. 14 Q: Okay. And -- but, in any event, 15 you're aware of the importance of burial ceremonies and 16 the protection of burial grounds; right? 17 A: To a -- a small degree, yes. 18 Q: Okay. Well, a greater degree 19 probably than some of us who have just learned about it; 20 is that fair? 21 A: Pardon? 22 Q: Okay. Okay. You object? 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, he's answered now 24 but it's not really a proper question. 25
1391 CONTINUED BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 2 Q: Okay. And Darlene Johnston told us 3 about the difference between pre-Christian burials and 4 Aboriginal burials -- pre-Christian Aboriginal burials 5 and 20th Century burials. And one (1) of the differences 6 she told us about was, and just one (1), was that pre- 7 Christian burials didn't have caskets. 8 Now, I -- I'm wondering, did your father 9 ever tell you about the burial ceremony -- about your 10 uncle's burial ceremony? 11 A: I don't know. When -- when he -- 12 he'd talk about that, he -- he -- he didn't go into any 13 great detail to me -- with me, as -- to that respect of 14 Fletcher's burial site or age or any -- or anything like 15 that. 16 Q: Okay. Prior to September 1995, did 17 your father ever show you the location of your uncle 18 Fletcher's grave? 19 A: Not me, no. 20 Q: Did someone else, that you're aware 21 of? 22 A: Stewart. 23 Q: Stewart? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And Stewart --
1401 A: There could have been a number of 2 peoples that he showed, but I -- I don't know for sure. 3 Q: Well, I only want to know if he 4 showed you -- 5 A: No. No. 6 Q: -- or if you have knowledge that he 7 showed -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- it to someone else? 10 A: Not me. 11 Q: And do you have knowledge that he 12 showed anyone else the grave? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: Okay. So I take it then that prior 15 to September 1995, you're not aware of any marker of any 16 kind that was placed on Fletcher's grave site in the 17 provincial park? 18 A: Again, he never ever mentioned that, 19 no. 20 Q: Okay. Prior to September 1995, are 21 you aware of your father or any other person ever 22 contacting the Provincial Government officials, telling 23 them that his brother Fletcher was buried in the Park? 24 A: Not -- not me. I -- I really don't 25 know.
1411 Q: No, I didn't ask -- I know you said 2 earlier to Ms. Jones that you didn't contact anybody. 3 You were pretty clear about that. I'm just asking 4 whether you're aware of whether your father or any other 5 person ever contacted any Provincial Government 6 officials? 7 A: As far as my father goes, no. 8 Q: And any other persons; are you aware 9 of that? 10 A: In -- in the Joan Holmes, well, it 11 didn't mention Fletcher's name but in the Joan Holmes, I 12 -- I recall something. 13 Q: Okay. But other than that, from your 14 personal knowledge is all I'm asking? 15 A: Well, again, in that -- in that Joan 16 Holmes, it was Robert George who -- who asked for that. 17 And it would have been -- I believe it might have been 18 his son, Fletcher. 19 Q: Okay. And that's the -- all the 20 knowledge you have with regard to contact with the 21 Provincial Government about Fletcher's burial site; 22 correct? 23 A: To my knowledge, yes. 24 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. George. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't
1421 want to start before lunch, I presume? 2 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I thought, 3 Commissioner, that it might helpful if I were to state 4 that I don't intend to add to the cross-examination of 5 this witness. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 7 not helpful at all. Thank you very much, Mr. Downard. 8 And I -- I think then subject to examination by Mr. Ross 9 and/or Mr. Scullion, do you have any examination of your 10 own client? 11 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: May be fairly quick, 12 Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 14 do that now. 15 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's just -- there's 16 one (1) matter that Ms. Vella raised with me following 17 her examination-in-chief. I think it's incumbent upon me 18 to clarify just for the record, with Mr. Elwood George's 19 record. 20 There's references along the way that -- I 21 checked the transcript and there was just an error made 22 in terms of sentences that were put down, the first of 23 which -- and if I can just state it for the -- the 24 record, there was a reference in 1977 to a fine of two 25 hundred dollars ($200) and a seven (7) day sentence.
1431 In fact, that's an in default. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And/or? 3 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In default? 5 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- in default. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In default. 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's in default, a 8 seven (7) day sentence. That's the same for a 1981 9 sentence. Again, it's in default. And again, the 10 failure to provide a breath sample. It was a fine and in 11 default. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In default. 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Fourteen (14) days. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that all 15 right, Ms. Vella? Is that consistent with your 16 information? 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's absolutely 18 correct, yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 Thank you for clarifying that. 21 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 22 Commissioner. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 25 Q: The second area is simply a very
1441 quick question regarding cross-examination. You were 2 asked when you saw Cecil Bernard George and you mentioned 3 that he was on the tarmac -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- when you saw him. Do you know how 6 he got to the tarmac? Did you see how he got there? 7 A: No, no I've -- I didn't see how he 8 got to the tarmac. The first time I visually seen that 9 person, I didn't know it to be Cecil Bernard at that 10 time. It -- it was on the tarmac. 11 Q: Okay. And the third question, again 12 we come back to the parking lot and the concept of the 13 parking lot being separate from the Park itself. 14 I understood from your evidence in-chief 15 that your understanding of the westernmost boundary for 16 the Stoney Point reserve took you well into the parking 17 lot and into the access road to the beach. Is that 18 correct? 19 A: Well, yes. My belief it's right to 20 Ravenswood Road. 21 Q: But in terms of the actual reserve, 22 the westernmost boundary, is it your understanding that 23 there's a jog in the boundary or as it goes straight down 24 the Army Camp Road? 25 A: I would say straight down. I -- I
1451 think at one (1) time that road was -- was moved at one 2 (1) point or the other... 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: P-63. 4 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: One (1) moment, Mr. 5 Commissioner. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Mr. Commissioner, 10 I'm referring to Exhibit Number P-63. Mr. Millar's 11 looking for it on the computer. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm advised it's 16 Inquiry Number 1002409, Page 13 of that document, which 17 is a map that has in the centre, "Ipperwash Military 18 Reserve" wording. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 21 Q: Can you used your laser pointer, Mr. 22 George, and show me the westernmost boundary to what you 23 understood the Stoney Point reserve to be? 24 A: Right there. That's what I believe. 25 But you -- as far as the history that's involved in
1461 Stoney Point today is right there -- pertains to this. 2 Q: And that area, you'd agree with me, 3 includes this sandy parking lot that we've been referring 4 to? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. Those are all 7 my questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Vella, 9 re-examination? 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, very briefly, Mr. 11 Commissioner. 12 13 RE-DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: Mr. George, I just want to take you 15 back to September the 6th, the evening, and clarify with 16 respect to the lighting questions, lighting conditions. 17 Ms. Jones asked you a few questions about that, and just 18 to clarify for the record. 19 Do you recall whether or not the park 20 store had any lights on during that evening? 21 A: Yes, it did. 22 Q: And was there also a -- a lamppost 23 that you can recall, with a light, that was situated 24 right outside of the park store? 25 A: Not offhand. I -- I can't remember.
1471 Q: All right. And during the time of 2 the confrontations, do you recall whether or not there 3 were either headlights or -- from the cars or spotlights 4 on during the duration of that confrontation, or were 5 there periods where there were no lights from those 6 objects? 7 A: No. Like -- like I said, yes, there 8 -- the -- the light, it -- it varied because of the 9 flashlights, because of the headlights, because of the 10 spotlights. It would -- the darkness, it wouldn't remain 11 constant, it would vary. The light would vary from time 12 to time depending on 13 what -- 14 Q: What I'm -- 15 A: -- lighting was used. 16 Q: What I'm trying to understand is 17 whether or not there was, during the whole period of the 18 duration of the confrontation, was there a light source 19 of one (1) type or another -- 20 A: There was -- 21 Q: -- to your knowledge? 22 A: -- there was headlights on. Some of 23 the guys were getting blinded by the light going back 24 into the gate. 25 Q: All right. Thank you. Those are my
1481 questions, Mr. Commissioner. Thank you, Mr. George. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. It's now 12:10. We do have another witness 4 lined up for this afternoon, do we? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, we do, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 7 adjourn now for lunch and continue back at 1:30. 8 9 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 12 adjourned until 1:30. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 12:10 p.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 1:30 p.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed, please be seated. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, Mr. 20 Registrar. 21 Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. The 22 Commission will call as its next witness Clayton George. 23 Mr. George will swear on the alternate oath. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Very Good. I understand, 25 Mr. George that you will be taking the Eagle Feather
1491 Oath. Is that correct? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 4 5 CLAYTON MORRIS GEORGE, JR., SWORN: 6 7 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 9 A: Good day. 10 Q: Now, Mr. George, I understand that 11 you are thirty-five (35) years of age. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Your date of birth being the 17th of 14 February, 1969? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I understood that you also wanted 17 to be well known that you are single? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Your parents are Sandra 20 Lundehn, did I say that properly? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And Alex Lundehn? 23 A: Axel. 24 Q: Axel Lundehn, I'm sorry. And I 25 understand that you also have been referred to from time
1501 to time as Kokomo? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Or Kokomo Joe is that also a name 4 that you're known? 5 A: Either way, yeah. 6 Q: Sorry? 7 A: Either way. 8 Q: Can you tell us how you got that 9 name? 10 A: I got that nickname given to me from 11 my grandpa. 12 Q: All right. And that would be your 13 father Abraham George? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Does Abraham George go by 16 another name? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Or is he known by another name? 19 A: Hampster. 20 Q: Do you know how he came about being 21 recognized as Hampster? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Perhaps derivation of Abraham 24 Hampster, does that make some sense or do you know at 25 all?
1511 A: The short form version, yes. 2 Q: All right. Your grandmother is 3 Muriel George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And this would be your mother 6 Sandra's parents, is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Your grandfather we've come to 9 understand, Mr. George, is from the Stoney Point Reserve 10 or was from the Stoney Point Reserve, as it then was? 11 A: Yes, he was. 12 Q: You have siblings, David George is 13 your brother? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Mike George. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And Tenille George, your only sister, 18 is that right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Just by way of your education, Mr. 21 George, you have graduated from grade 12? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Can you tell us when that was and 24 where? 25 A: 1988 Alexander McKenzie, Secondary
1521 School. 2 Q: And where is Alexander McKenzie, 3 Secondary School? 4 A: Sarnia. 5 Q: I understand you also had occasion to 6 attend Lambton College? 7 A: Yes. After I was done high school. 8 Q: And Lambton College is also in 9 Sarnia, is it? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Can you tell us what you studied 12 there? 13 A: Upgrading. 14 Q: All right. And I understand that 15 subsequently you attended Fanshaw College, that's in 16 London, Ontario? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what -- what were you doing 19 there? 20 A: I took a small engines course and 21 arts, general arts and science course too. 22 Q: Can you tell us when that was? 23 A: I believe '93-'94, the fall and 24 spring of '94. 25 Q: Okay. You've grown up in Kettle
1531 Point? 2 A: Yes, for sixteen (16) years. 3 Q: And I understand that after the 4 initial sixteen (16) years, you then had occasion to 5 reside elsewhere? You lived other than at Kettle Point? 6 A: Yes. Other -- other places too. 7 Q: And where was that? 8 A: Sarnia, and then Windsor. 9 Q: Okay. And most recently at a farm 10 somewhere within the vicinity of -- of Stoney Point, or 11 Camp Ipperwash? 12 A: In the vicinity? 13 Q: Yeah. Did you -- you lived somewhere 14 in the vicinity of Camp Ipperwash; is that right? 15 A: Yes. About -- 16 Q: I'm sorry. Go ahead. 17 A: About two (2) miles down the road on 18 -- south of the Army Camp. 19 Q: And this would be with your mother 20 and your father? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Right. I gather they were farming at 23 the time? 24 A: No. No, they weren't farming. 25 Q: But it was a farm; is that what I
1541 understand? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. You did learn from your 4 grandfather Abraham something about the lands that were 5 then CFB Ipperwash; correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: What did he tell you about that, Mr. 8 George? 9 A: He told me that he was from there and 10 that he had a piece a land and -- I didn't know where 11 though. 12 Q: Okay. All right. So he lived there, 13 or he was from there? 14 A: He was from there. 15 Q: He had a piece of land. What else 16 did he tell you about that? 17 A: That his -- that he had a sister that 18 was buried there too. 19 Q: Okay. And do you know where his 20 sister was buried? Did he ever tell you where she was 21 buried? 22 A: Yes. It was -- maybe somewhere down 23 here, right in that area. 24 Q: Okay. Now, you -- 25 A: And the --
1551 Q: -- now, you have a replication on a 2 single sheet in front of you of that particular image 3 that's up on the screen right now, Mr. George. 4 I wonder if you could just take that red 5 pen and mark that area that you've just indicated with 6 the laser pointer? 7 A: As an "X" or a "1"? 8 Q: For the record, it's Inquiry document 9 number 1002409, at page 13. It's also Exhibit 63, as Mr. 10 Ross informs me. 11 Yeah. If you could maybe just put a "G" 12 there to mark grave -- grave site. Is that -- can you do 13 that? 14 A: Yes. It looks like there's a "G" 15 there too. 16 Q: All right. Did you ever actually 17 visit that particular location, Mr. George, at any point 18 in time? 19 A: Just on and off. 20 Q: And can you confirm for us today 21 whether or not there is, in fact, graves there or perhaps 22 even were graves there at any point? 23 A: To my knowledge, I think there still 24 is graves there because there's gravestones there too. 25 Q: All right. And that would be
1561 consistent with what your grandfather Abraham told you, 2 that there were burials there? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Your grandfather Abraham 5 George, he told you that he had grown up in Stoney Point; 6 did he? 7 A: At some point. 8 Q: And that -- did he tell you that he 9 was obliged to live somewhere else? 10 A: Yes, from what he told me. 11 Q: I wonder if you might just relate to 12 us what was -- what it was that he had told you? 13 A: He didn't tell me that -- too much 14 about it. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And then after that he -- he went off 17 to war and then come back and he had no land. 18 Q: So your grandfather was a soldier? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And did I hear you 21 correctly that he went off to war and came back and had 22 no land? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Did he elaborate on that at all for 25 you?
1571 A: No. 2 Q: Did you get any sense from him as to 3 how he felt about that? 4 A: He did have that look in his -- sad 5 look in his eyes. 6 Q: Okay. So I gather from that that you 7 took it that he was sad about it? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Do you know where your 10 grandfather lived, given that he had returned from the 11 war and he had no land? 12 A: Before that? 13 Q: After he came back from the war and 14 he had no land, do you know where he lived? 15 A: Kettle Point. 16 Q: Did you learn anything from him about 17 what had happened at Kettle Point, about what he had in 18 terms of land at Kettle Point? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did your grandfather ever give you 21 any indication as to whether or not he expected to have 22 his land at Stoney Point returned to him at any time? 23 A: Not that I know of. 24 Q: Okay. And you know an individual by 25 the name of Dudley George, who is now deceased?
1581 A: Yes. 2 Q: And how are you related to him, or 3 how were you related to him? 4 A: He would be my second or third 5 cousin. 6 Q: I understand at some point in, 7 perhaps, in and around 1993, you were with others who had 8 moved to the Army Base to Ipperwash Military Reserve? 9 A: Yes, for a little while. 10 Q: And can you tell us when that was 11 that you might have moved there? 12 A: I can't tell you the specific date. 13 Q: All right. Well, we've learned 14 something about a number of people going in on May the 15 6th of 1993. 16 Were you among the original group that had 17 moved in? 18 A: After they were all there, yes. 19 Q: Okay. So you -- you came in there 20 after everybody was -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- already in? And can you, again, 23 just with respect to the picture that's up on the screen, 24 give us an indication as to where it was that you would 25 have came in?
1591 A: That gate right here. 2 Q: Now, is that a gate right immediately 3 to the west of the rifle range? 4 A: South. 5 Q: Pardon me? 6 A: South of the range. 7 Q: South of the rifle range off 8 Highway 21? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Would you be good enough to mark that 11 on that document in front of you again, in the red. If 12 you could perhaps just put an indication there with, 13 maybe, the number 1. 14 And who was it that you came into the Army 15 Camp with, Mr. George? 16 A: I believe it was my brother. 17 Q: That would be your brother David or 18 Mike? 19 A: Dave. 20 Q: And I realize you've told me that it 21 was sometime after the original people moved in there, or 22 the original body of people moved in; can you give us any 23 indication as to how much later; was it days, weeks, 24 months, perhaps? 25 A: Just a few days.
1601 Q: All right. And once you and your 2 brother, Dave, moved in a few days after -- I'm going to 3 assume that it is sometime after May the 6th of '93, 4 within a few days of May the 6th, -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- can you tell us what it is that 7 you would have -- what was it that you did at that point 8 then, once you had moved in? 9 A: We were helping them cleaning up the 10 brushes that they were dragging back towards the bush. 11 Q: And again, can you just maybe 12 indicate on the map, with the laser pointer, as to what - 13 - what area you're talking about was being cleaned up? 14 A: Right here. 15 Q: All right. And I understand then, 16 that people began to build campsites and set up camps, 17 tents, that sort of thing? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Is that what you were involved in? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: I understand that there's a grey 22 building somewhere adjacent to the rifle range that's 23 used to store targets and such. 24 Can you show us, perhaps, on that diagram 25 up on the screen where that is located?
1611 A: Right there. 2 Q: All right. And then, again, for the 3 purposes of our record, would you mark on the map in 4 front of you, with red, as to where that grey building 5 is, and perhaps put the number 2 beside it? 6 Can you tell us who else was in the 7 vicinity -- well, let me ask you this: I gather then, 8 that you set up your campsite, I think you've told us 9 that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you were living in a tent or a 12 trailer or -- 13 A: Tent. A tent. 14 Q: A tent. And can you tell us where 15 your tent was set up? 16 A: It would be some -- somewheres around 17 in this area. 18 Q: All right. Would you be good enough 19 to mark on the map then in front of you where you just 20 indicated, perhaps putting the number 3? 21 A: In that area anyways. 22 Q: All right. And can you tell us who 23 was -- who else was camped in the area that you had set 24 your tent up in? 25 A: Dudley, Glenn, Marlin Simon, and --
1621 Kevin Simon. 2 Q: When you say "Glenn", are you refer-- 3 A: Glenn George. 4 Q: You're referring to Glenn George; all 5 right. Were your parents anywhere around there or did 6 they -- did they come on to the land at all? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. What about your -- your 9 grandfather Abraham, did he have a camp set up there? 10 A: Yes. He had a trailer down there. 11 Q: Okay. And do you know where, in 12 relation to where you were camped, he was? 13 A: Where his trailer was first set? 14 Q: Yes. Is it fair to say that it is 15 south of yours? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. Closer to Highway 21? 18 A: No. It's more closer to the bush -- 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- where our kitchen arbour was set 21 up. 22 Q: I wonder if you just might indicate - 23 - it obviously doesn't show on the map that's depicted on 24 the big screen -- were the bush was. Can you just point 25 with your laser pointer? You're indicating a parallel
1631 line along Highway 21 from what is marked on the screen 2 as "Magazine", toward -- 3 A: Yes. That's how far the bush -- 4 Q: -- toward the rifle range? Would you 5 mark it on the map in front of you as well, please? Just 6 draw a line in the same fashion as you've indicated on 7 the screen. All right. 8 Now, most of us have been out there. 9 We've had the -- the opportunity to take a view of that 10 location. And, at least my recollection is, is that's 11 fairly heavy bush; is that -- is that the way it was at 12 that point? 13 A: Like, all -- grass in front of it. 14 Q: Grass in -- in front, closer to 15 Highway 21, and fairly heavy bush towards the north; is 16 that fair? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And during the time that 19 you were set up, when you had initially set up in May of 20 1993, did you have any interaction with either the 21 military or the Ontario Provincial Police? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And there was a time where you did 24 have some interaction with the Ontario Provincial Police, 25 we understand; do you know when that was?
1641 A: No. I can't be specific on what date 2 it was. 3 Q: All right. You're aware that there 4 have been -- or you're aware that there was allegations 5 made of a helicopter being shot? 6 A: Allegedly, yes. 7 Q: All right. Now, I wonder if you 8 could maybe just start by telling us a bit about whether 9 or not you'd seen any helicopters in and around the area, 10 what they doing at the time, when you initially had moved 11 in? 12 A: There -- there hasn't been none there 13 since I have been living there, until a little while 14 later. 15 Q: Okay. When did -- when you say "a 16 while later", when did you begin to see helicopters, if 17 at all? 18 A: I can't be right specific on which 19 days they were; they mostly come around at night. 20 Q: And what would happen when they would 21 come around at night? 22 A: They'd have their big spotlight 23 shined on us, on the campsites. 24 Q: Okay. Is that it? 25 A: Then they'd take off different
1651 directions, we don't know where, then they'd come back in 2 a different direction. 3 Q: What time of -- you said this 4 happened only at night? 5 A: Yes. That's the only time they'd 6 come around. 7 Q: Okay. Do you know what times -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- it might have been? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Do you wear a watch, Mr. George? 12 A: No, I didn't at that time. 13 Q: Okay. Do you today? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. Would it be late at 16 night, early evening or it didn't matter what hour? 17 A: It didn't matter. 18 Q: Okay. Do you know why they would be 19 doing this? That is why the military -- was it military 20 helicopters? 21 A: I wouldn't know. 22 Q: All right. And do you know why these 23 helicopters would be doing this flying around and shining 24 spotlights on the camp? 25 A: As far as I know it's just to harass
1661 us in a way. 2 Q: Did you find it harassing? 3 A: At the point, yes, when they had 4 their big spotlights turned on us. 5 Q: I understand that on August the 23rd 6 of 1993, you were at the army camp? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You were living there and you had 9 been since May? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And if I suggested to you 12 that on the 23rd of August, that is the date that this 13 helicopter was reportedly shot at and in fact shot -- 14 A: Allegedly, yes. 15 Q: -- do you agree with me that that's - 16 - that that's the date or probably the date? 17 A: Yes. It has -- yes, it was but it's 18 been a while, a long time. 19 Q: All right. Fair enough. I wonder 20 what you can tell us about that -- you -- you were a 21 witness to this in fact, correct? 22 A: When the helicopter was flying 23 around. 24 Q: There was a helicopter flying around, 25 right?
1671 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now do you recall giving a statement 3 to the Ontario Provincial Police, Mr. George? 4 A: The following morning? 5 Q: Was it -- it was the following 6 morning? 7 A: I'm pretty sure it was. 8 Q: All right. Now if you refer to your 9 binder and it's Document 2003516 that I'm going to refer 10 to. I believe it's under Tab 1 at -- in your documents, 11 Mr. Commissioner. You've had a chance to look at this? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: It's a transcript of a handwritten 14 statement that appears on the next page being Document -- 15 bearing the same document number, 2003516. 16 A: Yes, I'm looking at it now. 17 Q: That appears to be a typewritten 18 statement of your -- of a handwritten statement. 19 A: The second page is. 20 Q: All right. And when you look at that 21 second page which is a handwritten statement, can you 22 identify the handwriting for us, Mr. George? 23 A: Yes, that's my handwriting. 24 Q: All right. And if you look on the 25 second page of that handwritten statement, there appears
1681 to be a signature there. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: It's signed Joe George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You recognize that signature? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you agree that's yours. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. If we could just turn 10 back to the transcript of that handwritten statement on 11 the first page then? You've had a chance to read that on 12 -- on an earlier occasion? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: And having had a chance to read that, 15 is there anything in there that -- well let me first of 16 all ask you, do you remember providing that statement? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And is there anything in there that 19 does not accord with your recollection today? 20 A: To my knowledge -- I don't even 21 remember this. 22 Q: You don't remember the statement? 23 A: Yes, I remember it but not too well 24 after that -- that day I wrote -- re-writ it for -- 25 Q: Okay. Well let's maybe -- maybe go
1691 through it piece by piece if we would okay and you tell 2 me if you agree or disagree with any parts of it today. 3 It says: 4 "On Monday night, the 23rd of August, 5 1993, I was -- my camp and the 6 helicopter lit up our camp from the 7 beach area, that would have been the 8 first time around." 9 Do you see that part? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. 12 "It went down and turned to the right 13 and left." 14 I gather you're saying that it turned 15 right and then departed the scene and opposed it turned 16 right and then it turned left. 17 A: As to how I was standing? 18 Q: No, no. Just -- just in terms of 19 what you've written there, you're indicating that the 20 helicopter came around, at least on the first time, it 21 went down, turned to the right and then left somewhere. 22 A: Yes, I don't know where though. 23 Q: All right. 24 "Dave came from my grandpa's camp", 25 And I take it that's your grandpa Abraham
1701 you're referring to? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And "Dave" would be your brother, 4 Dave George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: "Came from grandpa's camp and picked 7 me up and took me back to grandpa's 8 camp". 9 Can you tell us -- again, you pointed out 10 on the map earlier -- and approximately how far from your 11 camp to grandpa's camp or to your grandpa's would that 12 have been? 13 A: From my brother's camp, is what 14 you're saying? 15 Q: Okay. 16 "Dave came from grandpa's camp, picked 17 me up". 18 Where did he pick you up at, if you can 19 recall? 20 A: Down on the -- on the ranges, down 21 near where the targets are. 22 Q: Okay. Fairly close distance, is that 23 fair? 24 A: Yes. It would take about -- a few 25 minutes to walk down there.
1711 Q: All right. 2 "Dave left and went to get the other 3 spotlights. I saw the helicopter close 4 to its last pass, head up over the camp 5 and David was still down there". 6 A: I believe he was still trying to find 7 his spotlight. 8 Q: All right. 9 "I was with grandpa and Lincoln". 10 Who's Lincoln? 11 A: That'd be Lincoln Jackson. 12 Q: All right. And do you remember him 13 being there at all today? 14 A: No, not really. 15 Q: All right. 16 "They were having a ceremony for his 17 Mom". 18 I gather that would be Lincoln and your 19 grandfather? 20 A: I don't remember. I think it was 21 when we had the sacred fire going, too. 22 Q: All right. 23 "I saw the helicopter come down the 24 range, left of the guard house". 25 And is the guard house the house that you
1721 marked out for us on the map, being that grey building? 2 A: I wouldn't call that grey building 3 the guard house. 4 Q: All right. What were you refer -- 5 what were you referring to when you mentioned the guard 6 house here, then, in your statement? 7 A: The one that was halfways down the 8 ranges. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: We're going to put that map up there 14 in a moment, Mr. George, and then I'll ask you to -- to 15 indicate with the pointer the flight path of the 16 helicopter as you recall it, okay? 17 But in the meantime, we'll just read on 18 here. 19 "I saw it turn it's lights out as it 20 came to our camp. Grandpa was cursing 21 and swearing at those guys. I turned 22 the spotlight on it for just a second 23 and I saw the door was wide open." 24 Can you follow me so far? 25
1731 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Do you remember that, Mr. George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. 6 "It was about two hundred fifty (250) 7 feet above the trees." 8 A: That was just a rough guess of my 9 measurements. 10 Q: Okay. And would you think that 11 that's accurate today? Two hundred and fifty (250) feet? 12 A: Well, that's hard to say. 13 Q: All right. 14 "I heard a shot from around the area, 15 but I don't know where. When I shone 16 the light on it, the shot was fired, 17 but I don't know from where. Lincoln 18 was beside me and grandpa was beside 19 me. The shot sounded like it came from 20 behind me. 21 The helicopter left and came back again 22 but didn't light anything up and left 23 the area. I shone the light on a car 24 at the roadway that was stopped. 25 Signed Joe George, witness, J.K. Potts,
1741 PC6611." 2 All right? So maybe -- let's just go back 3 here again, and I wonder if you could point with your 4 laser pointer where you were standing with your grandpa 5 and Lincoln? 6 A: Right where my -- right where my 7 grandpa had his trailer. 8 Q: All right. So you're standing beside 9 your grandpa's trailer, right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do you recall when you were 12 making these observations, then, where is the helicopter? 13 A: It was pretty much above us, but not 14 directly. 15 Q: All right. And when you say you 16 heard a shot from behind you, which direction would that 17 be? 18 A: From behind me, that would be the 19 bushes. 20 Q: So can you indicate with your laser 21 pointer on the -- on the map, the vicinity of where you 22 might have heard that shot come from? 23 A: Yes, it was around in that area. 24 Q: All right. The helicopter left and 25 came back but didn't light anything and left the area?
1751 A: Yes. 2 Q: In which direction did it leave? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: All right. You then shone the light 5 on a car at the roadway that was stopped; where was the 6 car on roadway that was stopped? 7 Can you maybe just mark on the map in 8 front of you and you will put the number 4? You're 9 indicating, I gather, that the car was stopped on Highway 10 21? 11 A: Yes, it was just sitting there. 12 Q: Do you know what kind of car it was? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Was it a marked vehicle, did you 15 determine -- 16 A: It didn't have no sirens on top. 17 Q: All right. Did you determine the 18 colour of it? 19 A: White. 20 Q: Okay. Was it a police vehicle? Is 21 that why you said it didn't have any sirens? 22 A: Yes. Those -- they -- they got those 23 kind of cars with no sirens on top, yeah. 24 Q: And no emergency lights, is that what 25 you're --
1761 A: No, I couldn't see them. 2 Q: All right. What was the reason 3 lighting up the helicopter, first of all? 4 A: It was because they were just 5 lighting us up. 6 Q: Okay. And the purpose of lighting up 7 the car on the road? 8 A: We just wanted to know who that -- 9 that was sitting out there. 10 Q: Somebody appeared to be watching this 11 event, is that what I understand? 12 A: From of what I know of, yes. 13 Q: Okay. Do you know who it was in -- 14 in the vehicle on the roadway that you lit up? 15 A: No, I don't know. 16 Q: Did you ever come to learn who that 17 was? 18 A: No. 19 Q: That person didn't take a statement 20 from you at any point? Or make any comments to you, to 21 identify who they were? 22 A: Not that I could remember. 23 Q: All right. Now, just going back to 24 the -- to the estimation you had provided about how high 25 the helicopter was, you could see the door was wide open,
1771 first of all, you've indicated that to us, Mr. George. 2 A: Yes. Didn't see nobody in the 3 doorway though. 4 Q: All right. You anticipated my next 5 question. So you couldn't see any persons inside? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Was it low enough that you could hit 8 it with a, I don't know, with a golf ball, if you were 9 throwing a golf ball? 10 A: A golf ball, yes. 11 Q: All right. And if I suggested that 12 if you could throw a golf ball two hundred and fifty 13 (250) yards above the trees -- two hundred and fifty 14 (250) feet, I'm sorry -- that would be a pretty good 15 throw? 16 A: Yes, it would be. 17 Q: Do you think that that estimate is -- 18 is accurate or not, today, having -- having a chance to 19 refresh your memory and reviewing this statement? 20 A: I'd still say the -- roughly the same 21 one. 22 Q: All right. Again, just if you go to 23 the -- the individual who had interviewed you, one J.K. 24 Potts? 25 A: Yes, I don't know him -- know him
1781 that well. 2 Q: You don't know him that well? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Do you -- do you -- I take it you 5 know him somewhat, do you? 6 A: Somewhat, yes. 7 Q: Okay. You had met that person on a 8 previous or subsequent occasion, is that -- would that be 9 fair? 10 A: Just -- just that day. 11 Q: Just the day of his taking -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- a statement from you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And he didn't mention 16 anything to you about anything about the spotlight or the 17 helicopter incident, having firsthand knowledge of it? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. And just further to that, 20 you indicated that you were beside your grandpa and 21 beside Lincoln and you heard a shot coming somewhere from 22 the back of you towards the woods area? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. You didn't indicate 25 whether your brother David was beside you or not?
1791 A: No. 2 Q: Did he eventually show up? 3 A: Eventually, yes. I don't know how 4 long after though. 5 Q: All right. Did he manage to find the 6 spotlight he was looking for or had went to obtain? 7 A: I think he did. 8 Q: Okay. Did he indicate to you 9 anything about a gunshot or having heard -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- a gunshot? 12 A: No. 13 Q: So the following day, you provide the 14 statement to the police? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. I understand that you were 17 somewhere near the stone query -- or quarry, when you had 18 seen the police arriving at the area where the people had 19 moved into the Army Camp, along the rifle range? 20 A: Yeah. Can you be a little more 21 specific. 22 Q: Okay. The next day we understand the 23 OPP came to search the people that were in the Army Camp, 24 along the rifle range? 25 A: Yes. I believe that's where they
1801 started at. 2 Q: Okay. And where were you when they 3 started doing that? 4 A: I was back at the stone quarry, where 5 the Mannings had their camp. 6 Q: All right. And what did you see? 7 And what happened? 8 A: Well, we left there from his -- Jeff 9 Elija's campsite, on his dirt bike, and coming up the 10 driveway towards -- towards the -- the main -- the... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Is that better, Mr. George? 15 A: Yes, that's a little bit better. 16 Q: All right. Can you just show us 17 where you were at the stone quarry? You mentioned you 18 were with Jeff Elija on his dirt bike? 19 A: Yes, coming down -- down here. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: You go up that dirt road, there. 22 Q: And you're indicating a dirt road. 23 Is this dirt road inside the Army Camp -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- adjacent to Highway 21?
1811 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you're heading in a -- would that 3 be a westerly direction or easterly direction? 4 A: Westerly. 5 Q: Westerly direction, towards the rifle 6 range? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. Go ahead. What happens? 9 A: Well, we were coming -- coming from 10 his campsite, or Jeff Elija's campsite, on his dirt bike, 11 there was two (2) -- two (2) cruisers sitting at the main 12 gate, their gate entrance there. 13 Q: Maybe you can just indicate on the 14 map with the laser pointer? 15 A: There's a gate entrance here. 16 Q: All right. And that would be on 17 Highway 21 and -- is that Outer -- what do you call that? 18 A: Outer Drive. 19 Q: Outer Drive? 20 A: Yes. This -- down a little ways from 21 Outer Drive. 22 Q: So go ahead. There's two (2) -- 23 there's two (2) police vehicles sitting there? 24 A: Sitting there. And we were coming 25 down the driveway towards the highway. And there was two
1821 (2) cruisers and two (2) cops standing beside -- in front 2 of one (1). Then I notice one (1) -- one (1) of the 3 police officers was -- had their shotgun pointed at us. 4 Q: Okay. Go ahead. 5 A: And we just kept on driving. 6 Q: All right. And where did you go? 7 A: Headed down towards the ranges. 8 Q: All right. And once you arrived at 9 the range, what happens? 10 A: They were already doing -- doing 11 their stuff that they were doing. 12 Q: And when you mean -- when you say 13 "they were doing" -- 14 A: Searching. 15 Q: -- who do you mean is "they"? 16 A: The OPP's, I believe. 17 Q: All right. And they were searching, 18 what were they searching? 19 A: Through the campsites? 20 Q: Okay. Did they search your campsite? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Was there any problem with them 23 searching your campsite? 24 A: Before they got to there, yeah, they 25 had to -- they wanted us to get our dog out of there, or
1831 else they -- 2 Q: I understand you had a -- 3 A: -- would have shot him. 4 Q: I'm sorry? 5 A: Or else they would have shot him, 6 they said. 7 Q: Okay. You had a Labrador? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: By the name of Random, is that -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And so what did they tell you 12 about your -- about your dog? 13 A: They were just saying somebody better 14 get their dog out of here, else we're going to shoot it. 15 Q: So what did you do? 16 A: My brother, Dave, came down and got 17 him. 18 Q: Okay. And what happened. 19 A: Then they just started ransacking the 20 campsite. 21 Q: Okay. When you say "ransacking" I 22 wonder if you could maybe describe what it was that you 23 seen being done? 24 A: Looking through everything, messing 25 everything up.
1841 Q: Okay. 2 A: Everything was all over. 3 Q: All right. Now you had a tent there 4 you -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- told us. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And so what did they do with your 9 tent? 10 A: Well, all my -- all my blankets and 11 stuff was all -- was all taken out of there, too. 12 Q: All right. Go ahead. 13 A: And I don't know how long they were 14 down there for. 15 Q: Did they find anything at your 16 campsite? 17 A: Not that I know of. 18 Q: Okay. What about your brother Dave's 19 campsite? He was next to you. Is that -- that right? 20 A: Well, pretty much in the same area, 21 same site. 22 Q: Okay. Now didn't somebody lose a 23 slingshot or something like that? 24 A: Didn't hear nothing about that. 25 Q: You know anything about --
1851 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. Did your -- other than having 3 your blankets and such thrown around, was there any 4 damage? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Your tent was fine? 7 A: Yes, it wasn't wrecked or nothing. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: Just everything was taken out. 10 Q: Did you make any observations about 11 the searches of any other of the campsites including the 12 kitchen or your grandfather's -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- place? 15 A: Didn't see -- see none of that until 16 I was coming back from the Manning camp, from -- from the 17 stone quarry. 18 Q: All right. You didn't see the search 19 of your grandfather's -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: -- camp? Did you subsequently learn 22 whether or not his camp was, in fact, searched? 23 A: No, I didn't. Alls I know is that 24 they were heading back towards -- down the ranges towards 25 me and my brother's campsite down there.
1861 Q: All right. And they had already 2 completed a search of your grandfather's -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- camp? Is that right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the kitchen area? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. At that point in time do you 9 know whether or not there were any guns or firearms at 10 all that were obtained as a result of -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- the search of the various 13 campsites? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Do you know whether or not there were 16 any guns or firearms stored at the Army camp at that -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- point in time? You're not aware - 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- or -- 21 A: Not aware of. 22 Q: At that point in time, and up to that 23 point, Mr. George, had anybody from the military or the 24 OPP tell you or anyone in your presence that you should 25 leave the camp?
1871 A: No. 2 Q: Did you have any interaction with the 3 military or the OPP up to that point? 4 A: No. 5 Q: You told us that Dudley George, the 6 late, was a second or third cousin of yours? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you know him prior to your moving 9 into the Army camp or -- or did you meet him there? 10 A: That's where I met him. 11 Q: And I gather you would have got to 12 know him as you would have got to know others? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Is there anything that you could tell 15 us about him from your recollection? What kind of person 16 he was? 17 A: I think Dudley -- he was a happy go 18 person. Liked -- liked to make jokes about everything. 19 Q: Did you ever see whether or not he 20 had been engaged in any interaction with members of the 21 military or the Ontario Provincial Police? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Let's start with the military. 24 A: No. 25 Q: I understand the military used to
1881 make perimeter patrols or they'd come around from time to 2 time in their vehicles. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You got to know some of these 5 vehicles, a Mr. Crawford, for example -- 6 A: Not personally. 7 Q: You got to know them from recognizing 8 them? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: From seeing them from time to time. 11 A: Yes. Yes. 12 Q: Did you ever see whether or not 13 Dudley had any interaction with Mr. Crawford or any of 14 the other individuals you got to recognize? 15 A: No. No. 16 Q: You never heard him firing anybody or 17 saying "you're fired" to anybody? 18 A: Yeah. I heard -- heard him say that 19 sometimes. And we just had a big good laugh about it. 20 Q: Well what did that mean to you? 21 A: To me? That was just a joke to me. 22 They were laughing at it. 23 Q: Okay. What he would say then? 24 A: He'd just tell them that you're 25 fired.
1891 Q: Meaning? 2 A: Go on home. 3 Q: Okay. During that time did you have 4 any occasion to go hunting within the -- within the Camp? 5 The Camp lands? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you do any hunting there? 8 A: No not that early -- not that time 9 when I was there the earliest. 10 Q: Now we're talking about -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- 1993, at this point. 13 A: No, I never done no hunting that 14 much. 15 Q: Did you know whether or not any of 16 the people that were occupying the Camp had engaged in 17 hunting? 18 A: Yes, there's geese hunting and deer 19 hunting sometimes. 20 Q: Do you know the names of those 21 individuals that would be hunting geese or deer? 22 A: Glenn George. I know Glenn George 23 liked -- likes to go hunting up there a lot. 24 Q: And I gather he would be hunting with 25 guns?
1901 A: Yes. 2 Q: And do you know where he would have 3 kept his guns? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Gun or guns? 6 A: No. 7 Q: In terms of deer hunting, do you know 8 when that would normally occur? 9 A: Right around this time. 10 Q: So in the fall? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. Do you have any -- do you 13 know why that is, if you know? 14 A: Why? 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: Because that's the best time, when 17 the -- when the meats taste the best. 18 Q: Okay. And over the summer -- well, 19 maybe just before we move off of that -- did you stay at 20 the army camp over the winter of 1993? 21 A: On and off, yes. 22 Q: And where would you stay when you 23 were there during the winter of 1993? 24 A: Down at my parents when the nights 25 got too cold.
1911 Q: Okay. Otherwise you would stay at 2 the Army Camp? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And when you were at the Army Camp, 5 where would you -- where would you stay? 6 A: Down at my -- I had a campsite where 7 my brother's campsite was too. 8 Q: Would this be a more permanent type 9 of shelter? You told us earlier you were in a tent. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: I gather you moved to something more 12 permanent did you? 13 A: Yes, into -- Lorne Jacobs was around 14 -- coming around at the time and he had a trailer too. 15 Q: All right. And do I understand from 16 that, that you stayed in Lorne Jacobs' trailer? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that would have been somewhere 19 near where your brother David was camped? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Your brother David had a permanent 22 shelter as well or a shack or a trailer or something? 23 A: Trailer. 24 Q: Can you maybe just mark on the map 25 then in front of you, I think if you could put a number 5
1921 there, please, Mr. George, as to where you were then 2 living? 3 A: Well, all through those years the 4 trailers would be getting moved around because the grass 5 and the grass would be all muddy. So the trailers were 6 moved around quite a bit. 7 Q: Hence, the name mobile home? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. During the summer of 1994 10 prior to the -- prior to moving into the built-up area, I 11 understand that there were various meetings that would 12 have taken place? 13 A: Yes, mostly down on the beach. 14 Q: Okay. When you say down on the 15 beach, I wonder if you might just point on the map on the 16 -- was there any particular location on the beach where 17 these meetings would take place? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And can you tell us, Mr. George, who 22 was involved in those meetings, if you can recall? 23 A: I can't specifically remember 24 anybody's names, who was all there. 25 Q: Would it be people that were camped
1931 out? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. I think the map's up 4 there now. So pretty much in the centre of the beach? 5 A: Yes. There's a -- 6 Q: Beach area -- 7 A: -- overpass there. 8 Q: -- of the -- of the Army Camp? 9 A: Yes. There is an overpass there. 10 Q: I see. And so people would gather 11 there and -- 12 A: Yes, because we had a arbour down 13 there too. 14 Q: All right. And they would gather 15 down there to meet and discuss what? 16 A: Talks about taking over up on the 17 built-up area. Plus that's where we would all go -- go 18 hang out and relax too. 19 Q: Okay. Was there any discussions 20 about bringing this to the attention of government, 21 perhaps by doing some other types of demonstrations? 22 A: During that time, in '94? 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: Just that walk up to Ottawa, that was 25 it.
1941 Q: And that occurred in 1994, we -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- we understand? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Were you involved in that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what was the purpose of that 8 walk, Mr George? 9 A: Up to Ottawa? To let them hear what 10 we had to say about our land, about getting it back, 11 giving it back to us. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: And we never heard nothing from the 14 Prime -- Prime Minister. 15 Q: Okay. Did you hear anything from 16 anybody in government as a result of your -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- trying to let them know something 19 about wanting your land back? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Were there any discussions about 22 wanting to improve the living conditions, for example, 23 that the people who had moved into the Army Camp 24 required? 25 A: Like, what do you mean by that?
1951 Q: Well, were there any discussions 2 about maybe getting Hydro in, maybe getting -- 3 A: No. There was no discussions about 4 that. 5 Q: -- running water, or warmer places to 6 stay for the Elders; no discussions like that? 7 A: Well, we had to wait until all the 8 cadets were gone in order for the -- because they never 9 came back in '95. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. And when you say you were 11 trying to bring to the government the issues about land 12 or wanting your land back, why was that important to you, 13 Mr. George? 14 A: Well, we were doing it for my -- for 15 my grandpa and our ancestors to get the land back. 16 That's why I was -- why I was doing that, for my grandpa. 17 Q: All right. Mr. Commissioner, I know 18 we intend to break early today. This is about the 19 halfway point between now and the end of the day, and I'm 20 wondering if whether or not -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 22 short break. Okay? Let's take a ten (10) minute break. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, sir. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 25 for ten (10) minutes.
1961 2 --- Upon recessing at 2:25 p.m. 3 --- Upon resuming at 2:38 p.m. 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 6 resumed. Please be seated. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you for that 8 break, Mr. Commissioner. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: If we can just carry on then, Mr. 12 George. I want to take you then to 1995, and in 13 particular to the time at which the people that were in 14 occupation of the range then moved into the barracks 15 area. Do you remember that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And were you part of that initial 18 group that moved into the barracks area? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Can you tell us who you were with 21 when you moved into the barracks area? 22 A: I can't remember exact who I went in 23 with. 24 Q: All right. Do you remember how you 25 got in?
1971 A: Yes. 2 Q: And how was that? 3 A: The back way. 4 Q: Okay. What does that mean? 5 A: All the way around the camp, out 6 towards Outer Drive and around. 7 Q: Maybe if you could just use the laser 8 pointer and assist us. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Okay, where -- where would you have 13 come in first of all? Maybe if we could start there. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: All right. I think that helps. I 18 see the Commissioner is enlightened, so I'm happy. 19 A: I can -- I can stand up and do it 20 like that. 21 Q: I think -- I'm only teasing you, Mr. 22 George. I think that everybody had an opportunity to see 23 the direction. I think you indicated you came in off the 24 beach area and onto a road that most of us that had taken 25 the view of the premises are familiar with.
1981 A: Yes, that road that goes by the Bayou 2 Lakes. 3 Q: And then you would have come in along 4 the road adjacent to Highway 21 and into the barracks 5 from that direction? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And as -- as I understood, you came 8 in a little bit later, so you didn't see the -- 9 A: No, I didn't see the -- 10 Q: -- the initial altercation that might 11 have taken place? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And what did you see once you arrived 14 at the built-up area, that is the barracks area when you 15 arrived there with other people? 16 A: They were pretty much all standing 17 around the main gate. 18 Q: Okay. And what were people doing? 19 A: Just standing around at the gate 20 waiting for the militaries to leave. 21 Q: Okay. Did they leave? 22 A: Eventually, yes. 23 Q: And when you say "eventually", after 24 you arrived there, how much later did the military leave? 25 A: I'm not too sure on that.
1991 Q: Okay. And so everybody else is 2 standing around. What are you doing? 3 A: Walking around trying to look for my 4 place to live in. 5 Q: Okay. And did you find your own 6 place to live in? 7 A: Eventually, yes. 8 Q: All right. We're just going to see 9 if we can find a map of the ... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: I think in the meantime, Mr. 14 Registrar, we may have a map of the -- pardon me, there 15 it is. I wonder if you could then use your -- your laser 16 pointer, Mr. George, just to indicate. 17 When you say people were "standing around 18 the front gate", first of all, do you recognize -- do you 19 recognize that diagram -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- as being a diagram of the built-up 22 area? 23 A: Yes, it is. 24 Q: All right. And the main gate, you'd 25 agree with me, is the bottom lefthand corner, in and
2001 around that area? 2 A: In the corner? 3 Q: Maybe you could just point it out 4 there if you would. All right. Perfect. Oh, that's the 5 -- pardon me, okay. So where the Number 3 is, that is 6 where the -- the access is to the -- to the camp? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And when you were 9 looking, you say, for a place to stay, you eventually 10 selected a place? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And where was that? That would be 13 Building number 1? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Formerly the 16 Administration Building? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And is that where you 19 reside today? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. You changed at some point -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- I gather? But you still live at 24 the Army -- at the Army barracks? 25 A: Yes, I do.
2011 Q: Where do you live today? And what's 2 the -- what's the number of that building, just for the 3 record, that you pointed at? 4 A: Building 28. 5 Q: All right. Can you describe what the 6 mood of -- of the people were at that point in time? 7 A: Happy that we had -- had the built-up 8 area and Hydro and water. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And a place to shower too. 11 Q: All right. Did you see any 12 interaction and in particular any confrontations between 13 anybody from the military and any of the people that you 14 were with that moved into the barracks area? 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. Were you ever told by 17 anybody from the Department of National Defence, any of 18 the military personnel, that you shouldn't be there, that 19 you should leave? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Was there anybody from the Ontario 22 Provincial Police that would have attended at that point 23 to tell you that you should leave? 24 A: On that same day we took it over? 25 Q: Yeah?
2021 A: No. 2 Q: What about any subsequent day? 3 A: Not that I could -- not that I know 4 of. 5 Q: All right. And, as I understand it, 6 you had occasion to meet with John Crawford? You know 7 John Crawford? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And he's the individual that you 10 would have become familiar with as driving patrol on 11 earlier -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- occasions, when you were still 14 living on the range? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Doug Maguire (phonetic), do you know 17 who that is? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And who is that? Is he also a 20 military personnel? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Are you familiar with a Shane Burley 23 (phonetic)? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And who is Shane Burley?
2031 A: The maintenance guy. 2 Q: Okay. Was he military or civilian? 3 A: Civilian. 4 Q: Okay. And maintenance, he was in 5 charge of what? 6 A: The boilers and stuff, the pump 7 house, water -- water -- the reservoir and the pump 8 house. 9 Q: Okay. And, as I understand, you were 10 with others and met with these individuals? 11 A: Yes, for that job. 12 Q: Can you tell us what happened? What 13 did they tell you, if anything? 14 A: They were just basically showing us 15 how -- how things worked. 16 Q: Okay. And when they were showing you 17 how things worked, you mean the things that you've just 18 described for us, the boilers -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- the pump house? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And so on? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And do you recall who they 25 would have been speaking to? Was there anybody on behalf
2041 of the group that you were with that they would have been 2 dealing directly with, as sort of in-charge, if I can put 3 it that way? 4 A: Glen Bressette -- 5 Q: Glen Bressette? 6 A: -- in other words -- he goes by J.R. 7 too. 8 Q: All right. And what about Roderick 9 George? 10 A: I don't know what position he had 11 then. 12 Q: But was he part of the group that was 13 receiving instruction on -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- on maintenance operation -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- of the barracks area? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And am I correct in -- in 20 understanding that Roderick George had previously worked 21 at the Army barracks? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Something called the Bow Gang? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that would be that group of
2051 individuals who were assigned to building accommodations 2 for the Army Cadets in previous years? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Do you know who obtained the - 5 - well, who got the job, if I could put it that way, of 6 looking after the pump house and the other items that you 7 mentioned, the -- the infrastructure? 8 A: The maintenance and stuff? 9 Q: Yeah? 10 A: J.R. 11 Q: And did you ever have any duties 12 insofar as maintenance and stuff that J.R. was assigned 13 to do? 14 A: Yes. How -- had to do the same thing 15 he done too. 16 Q: All right. During this time, did you 17 have any interaction with any of the people at -- at 18 Kettle Point, where you had formerly lived? 19 A: No. 20 Q: You were -- you were aware that there 21 were people from Kettle Point that were quite supportive 22 of you, people like Bonnie Bressette? 23 A: Yes, some. I don't know how many 24 though. 25 Q: All right. But you're certainly
2061 aware that Bonnie Bressette, for example, was -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- quite supportive? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: She would come and visit from time to 6 time? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: There would be others from Kettle 9 Point that would indicate their support? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Once you were into the -- into the 12 range and then into the barracks, did you and others have 13 anything to do with the grave sites that you've told us 14 about and marked on the map for us? 15 Were there any activities, in particular, 16 that went on with respect to the burial grounds or the 17 grave sites? 18 A: Like how? 19 Q: Well, I think you've told us earlier 20 that you were happy to get -- 21 A: Oh yes. 22 Q: -- the grave sites back. Okay. Do 23 you recall whether there was any activity, for example, 24 in connection with caring for those grave sites? 25 A: Yes.
2071 Q: And can you tell us about that, 2 please. 3 A: Maintaining the -- the cleansiness 4 (phonetic) and the -- so it won't get overgrown and 5 stuff. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Keep it -- keep it well cut and 8 stuff. 9 Q: You were involved in that? 10 A: Sometimes, yes. 11 Q: Okay. Anything else? Were there any 12 kind of ceremonies in relation to that, that you're aware 13 of? 14 A: No. 15 Q: There weren't or there's none that 16 you're aware of? 17 A: None that I was aware of. 18 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, on the 19 evening before the Labour Day weekend in 1995, I'm given 20 to understand that there was a meeting that took place on 21 Matheson Drive in relation to the Park. 22 Do you remember that? 23 A: The night before -- the night before. 24 Q: Well, at some point prior to the 25 Labour Day weekend was there a meeting at Matheson Drive?
2081 A: Yes, for a little while. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I don't know how long it lasted, 4 though. 5 Q: I just want to take you back to the - 6 - the map of -- of the camp. 7 A: The built-up part? 8 Q: I think it's the one you have in your 9 hand. Let's see if we can put that up on the screen. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And I wonder if you can just use your 14 laser pointer and show us where this meeting took place, 15 for a little while, on Matheson Drive? 16 Okay. You're indicating on the roadway on 17 the eastern edge of Ipperwash Provincial Park? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And do you know who all 20 was at this meeting and what was discussed? 21 A: I remember a few people, not all of 22 them. 23 Q: Okay. Can you tell us who it is that 24 you do remember being there? 25 A: Les Jewel, Dudley and Glenn.
2091 Q: When you say "Glenn", you mean -- 2 A: Glenn George. 3 Q: Glenn George. Go ahead. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Les Jewel, Russ Jewel, I can't 8 remember anybody else's names who was down there. 9 Q: Roderick George? 10 A: I think so. 11 Q: Okay. Stewart George? 12 A: I think so. 13 Q: Elwood George? 14 A: I don't remember. 15 Q: What about your brother, David? 16 A: I think he was down there. 17 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what it 18 was that was discussed at this meeting? 19 A: That we wanted to take over the Park 20 peacefully. 21 Q: Okay. And why did you want to take 22 over the Park peacefully? 23 A: To protect our ancestors graveyards 24 there. 25 Q: Okay. So it was your understanding
2101 that there were burial sites -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- within the Provincial Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And, can you tell me how it is that 6 you came about this knowledge? 7 A: Just the years that I've just been 8 living there. 9 Q: Okay. And was it determined when 10 that would happen? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Well, were you going to do it right 13 at that point or -- 14 A: No, we waited 'til the last day they 15 all left. 16 Q: The last day...? 17 A: Of the weekend of the campers that 18 they left. 19 Q: Okay. And so, you knew that the 20 Provincial Park would then be closed for the season? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Do you know whether or not that 23 information or -- or advice was provided to anybody -- 24 any officials of the Park? 25 A: Not that I know of.
2111 Q: And so am I correct in saying that it 2 was September the 4th that people did move into the Park? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And were you part of the initial 5 group that moved into the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Can you tell us what time 8 of day you would have came in and what you seen when you 9 moved in? 10 A: I'd say it would be between four (4) 11 and six (6), late afternoon. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: The best of my knowledge of the times 14 though. 15 Q: And what did you see when you moved 16 in, Mr. George? 17 A: Well, I didn't see too much because I 18 was one of the last ones to walk in. 19 Q: All right. Well what -- what did you 20 see? You must have seen something? 21 A: Like in what? 22 Q: Well, did you see how people gained 23 access to the Park? 24 A: Walked in through the beach way. 25 Q: Okay. And where would that be? Is
2121 that on Matheson Drive? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Just where you pointed -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- where the meeting had occurred the 6 night before? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. Was -- we know that there 9 was a gate there? 10 A: Yes there was, it was -- 11 Q: Or a fence of some description? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And was that fence opened? 14 A: I don't know if it was or not? 15 Q: If you walked in, I've got to 16 assume -- 17 A: I went in through the beach way. 18 Q: Oh, I see, okay. You know whether 19 anybody went in through the -- through the gate? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You don't know or they didn't? 22 A: No, I don't know. 23 Q: All right. Did you see any police 24 officers or any officials from the Ministry of Natural 25 Resources at the Park when you arrived?
2131 A: I think just one (1) cruiser, I'm not 2 -- not too sure. 3 Q: There was one (1) cruiser there? 4 A: I'm pretty sure if it was a cruiser 5 or an unmarked car or not? 6 Q: All right. Did you see whether there 7 were any officers around that cruiser? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I just seen the one person in the 11 car. 12 Q: Okay. Did you see whether or not 13 anybody from -- from your group had any interaction with 14 that person, any conversation of any type? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you see any civilians in there, 17 any campers, or people that would appear to have been 18 campers, that hadn't moved out of the Park at that point? 19 A: Not to my knowledge, I'm not -- no. 20 Q: So is it your recollection today, Mr. 21 George, that the only people you would have seen in the 22 Park were other people -- were other Aboriginal people, 23 coming to occupy the Park? 24 A: Yes, just our own people. 25 Q: Other than the one (1) cruiser?
2141 A: Yes. 2 Q: With -- with one (1) officer or -- 3 A: As far as I know, yes. 4 Q: -- somebody in there? All right. 5 And can you tell us what people were doing once you moved 6 into the Park? 7 A: Not really, because everybody else 8 was pretty much all the way up towards the front there. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Okay. Do you recognize that diagram 14 that's up on the screen, Mr. George? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. You have one (1) in front 17 of you as well. Can you just maybe get that out so you 18 can refer to it. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Okay. That document number is 23 1002409, at page 1. Now, again, can you just indicate 24 with your laser pointer where it is that you would have 25 entered, Mr. George? All right.
2151 And -- and you -- you don't have any 2 knowledge as to how other individuals who were there 3 would have entered the park? 4 A: The same way. 5 Q: Okay. And when you say that when you 6 came in you couldn't really see other people because they 7 were down at the other end; is that what you've -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- told us? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Where would they be? Would that be 12 towards the bridge and where the store is? 13 A: Yes, it would be. 14 Q: Okay. And it's your recollection 15 today that you didn't see any officers in the park, other 16 than the one (1) individual in a cruiser? 17 A: Up until that point, no. 18 Q: Where was the cruiser when you seen 19 that? Can you indicate on the map where the cruiser was 20 when you first seen it? 21 A: It's somewheres around in there. 22 Q: Okay. And did it stay there or did 23 it leave? 24 A: It left. 25 Q: All right. Now, at some point in
2161 time I understand that you were at the main entrance. 2 And can you just indicate with your laser pointer where 3 the main entrance to the Park is? All right. 4 And at that entrance, you were there with 5 your brother; do you recall that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Being at that entrance? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And being approached by individuals? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: OPP officer in fact? 12 A: Yes, it was. 13 Q: I wonder if you would tell us about 14 that, please? 15 A: Well, me and my brother pulled up to 16 that gate, there, to keep an eye on it. And then there 17 was two (2) OPP cars there and two (2) OPP officers 18 standing there too. 19 Q: Now, were they parked on the roadway 20 of -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- the entrance or were they parked 23 on Army Camp Road? 24 A: Army Camp Road. 25 Q: Okay. Go ahead. What happens?
2171 A: Then we pulled up and stopped there, 2 at the -- where the gate entrance is, the yellow gates, 3 stopped there. And one (1) of them -- one (1) of the OPP 4 officers tried to hand me and my brother a piece of 5 paper. I didn't know what it was though. 6 Q: Okay. What did you think it was? 7 What did you think was going to happen? 8 A: That they might have grabbed one (1) 9 of us if we took that paper; didn't know what would 10 happen after that. 11 Q: All right. Did you know the -- the 12 OPP officer or officers? 13 A: Just the one (1). 14 Q: And who was that? 15 A: Vince George. 16 Q: Okay. Is there -- was there a fence 17 at all or anything in between you and the OPP officer who 18 tried to hand you this piece of paper? 19 A: Just a gate, the gate entrance. 20 Q: Okay. And your testimony is that you 21 refused to take it because you didn't know what it was? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did they not mention what it was? 24 A: No. 25 Q: There were no words, that you can
2181 recall for us, exchanged? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Other than the -- did you say it was 4 two (2) OPP officers? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Other than the two (2) OPP officers, 7 was there anybody else with them -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- to your recollection today? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Did you say anything to them at all? 12 Or did you simply refuse to accept the piece of paper 13 they were trying to give you? 14 A: Yes, we didn't -- didn't get out of 15 the car or nothing. I just told my brother to back up 16 because I didn't want to take that f'n paper from them. 17 Q: I'm sorry? 18 A: Didn't -- we did -- I told my brother 19 to back up a little bit because I told him that we didn't 20 want to take that f'n paper from him. 21 Q: Okay. And the reason you didn't want 22 to take that paper is you were concerned, I think you've 23 told us, that they were going to grab one (1) of you? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. What happened after that,
2191 Mr. George? 2 A: We went back around up -- up to where 3 the Park store is. 4 Q: Okay. And I understand that you then 5 participated with others in securing the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: What kind of steps did you take? 8 A: In -- in what way? 9 Q: Well, in terms of what did you do to 10 participate with others in securing the Park? 11 A: We were just told to keep our eyes 12 open. 13 Q: And do you recall who would've told 14 you that? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did it seem to you that there was 17 anybody in particular in charge? Or can you tell us how 18 decisions were made about keeping your eyes open, for 19 example? 20 A: All of us. 21 Q: Okay. I'm not sure I follow that. 22 Did it seem to you like anybody was in charge or 23 everybody was in charge? 24 A: Everybody was in charge. 25 Q: And did you stay in the Park on that
2201 -- on that first evening? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not 4 anybody was consuming alcohol in the Park that first 5 evening that you stayed there? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you or to your knowledge did 8 anybody else that you were involved with in coming into 9 the Park on that first day, bring in any firearms? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Did you see anybody else with any 12 firearms? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Was there anybody there that was not 15 from Stoney Point in the Park on that first evening, to 16 your recollection? 17 A: Wayne, Les Jewel, Russ Jewel. Saw 18 quite a few people that was -- wasn't from here down 19 there. 20 Q: All right. When you say Wayne, do 21 you know Wayne's last name? 22 A: I did know it, but I forgot. 23 Q: All right. Do you know how many 24 people in total there might have been in the Park on that 25 first evening?
2211 A: My rough -- rough estimate would be a 2 dozen. 3 Q: Okay. Did everybody stay there that 4 first evening or were people coming and going? 5 A: Some were coming and going. I don't 6 know who. 7 Q: And when you stayed there the first 8 evening was there anywhere for you to sleep or in fact, 9 did you sleep? 10 A: No, I didn't sleep. 11 Q: Do you know if there were any fires 12 built or any such thing? 13 A: Yes, we had a fire there too. 14 Q: And where was that fire? 15 A: Around the store area. 16 Q: And what was the purpose of that 17 fire? Was it simply to keep warm? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Moving into the next day, that is 20 September the 5th now -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- of 1995, I understand you 23 continued to keep your eyes open, that you -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: You continued to watch to see if
2221 there was anybody coming and going? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what did you see? 4 A: From my point of view? 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: Well, I was travelling back and forth 7 all that -- all day that day, September 5th. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: Back and forth up to the built-up 10 area and down the Park. 11 Q: And what route would you take? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: So you'd go back to the built-up area 16 and the route again that you would take? That's the road 17 inside the army camp adjacent to Army Camp Road? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Do you know how many times you might 20 have travelled back and forth that day? 21 A: I wasn't keeping track. 22 Q: And can you tell us what you've seen? 23 A: What I've seen? 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: Well they had cops all lined up along
2231 Outer Drive. 2 Q: Outer Drive...? 3 A: Yes. Or not Outer Driver, Army Camp 4 Road. 5 Q: Okay. Go ahead. 6 A: There was a few of them standing 7 around here, and here -- 8 Q: Now, just for the record, you're 9 indicating adjacent to what appears to be marked the -- a 10 trailer park? 11 A: Yes, they were on the end of it, -- 12 Q: Right. 13 A: -- how -- where it ends, and there 14 was nothing but big sand there. 15 Q: Okay. Go ahead. 16 A: There was three (3) cop cars and 17 three (3) -- two (2) cruisers and three (3) police 18 officers standing there on the opposite -- the same side 19 as the trailer park is, on Army Camp Road. 20 Q: All right. And do you -- do you know 21 what time of day this might have been? 22 A: Between four (4) and five (5). 23 Q: In the afternoon? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I understand that -- that you, or
2241 perhaps others, had taken measures to alert you if there 2 was anybody attempting to intrude? 3 A: Through the bush ways and stuff? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what was that? 7 A: Well, we were going to set up some 8 cans and fishing lines for the -- for our alarm, -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: -- to let us know if they were coming 11 in or not. 12 Q: And so would you -- would you or have 13 you ever described those cans and fishing lines as booby 14 traps? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. Did those cans and fishing 17 lines, did they work? 18 A: Not that I know of. 19 Q: All right. Now you indicated that 20 there was one (1) -- well there was a group of -- a group 21 -- did you say there was three (3) cruisers and -- and 22 several officers adjacent to the trailer park on Army 23 Camp Road? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Were there others?
2251 A: All along the -- all along Army Camp 2 Road, yes. 3 Q: Okay. Now, were there -- were there 4 stationery points or were these vehicles moving? 5 A: Yeah, in different spots along -- 6 along the road. 7 Q: Can you indicate where the other 8 spots along the road might have been, that you can 9 recall? 10 A: Some -- some sitting there. 11 Q: Okay. And, again, you're indicating 12 right next to what is marked on the map -- I'm afraid I 13 can't read that... 14 A: Yes, there's a trailer park in that - 15 - in that area there, too. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: And they were just sitting on top of 18 that little -- little slope there, on the road. 19 Q: So it would be fair to say it's just 20 where the hand written -- where it's hand written, Army 21 Camp Road, right where the "D" is? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Anywhere else along that 24 road? 25 A: Just up to the main gate and the
2261 highway. 2 Q: And that would be the Highway 21 3 and -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- Army Camp Road? All right. Did 6 you have any contact with any of the police officers at 7 any of those points, as you were travelling up and down 8 the road? 9 A: Just that once, when I was coming up 10 to the built-up area again. 11 Q: All right. What happened? 12 A: I think I put the spotlight on them, 13 then -- then a little ways up the road, they -- I heard - 14 - heard a stone hit my car, the back of my car, as I was 15 driving -- driving back up to the built-up area. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. You had put the spotlight 17 on -- A: Yes, before I drove by them. 18 Q: Sorry...? 19 A: Before I drove by them. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And then after I drove by them, then 22 that's when they threw the stone. Then I shot him the 23 finger and went up the road. 24 Q: Okay. So your -- your car was -- 25 A: Hit with a stone.
2271 Q: -- hit -- hit by a stone -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- thrown by...? 4 A: A police officer, I don't know which 5 one. 6 Q: All right. Do you know whether there 7 was any other interaction between others of the occupiers 8 and the police? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And I understand you were present 11 during the evening when there was an exchange between 12 Dudley George and the police, and the OPP? 13 A: Well, I didn't hear the -- that first 14 part of it, no. 15 Q: Maybe you can just tell us what you - 16 - what you did hear and what you do remember? 17 A: Couldn't understand what they were 18 saying because we were all hollering at the same time. 19 Q: Okay. What was being said? 20 A: A bunch of words and stuff from our 21 side, and I don't know what -- couldn't understand what 22 they were saying. 23 Q: Okay. It would be fair to say that 24 there was yelling back and forth? 25 A: Yes.
2281 Q: All right. And would -- the police 2 were outside of the Park, I gather? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you -- when you say, We were all 5 yelling, you would have yelling from inside the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And do you recall the kind of 8 words that were being exchanged, at least from your side; 9 I recognize you didn't hear the other side? 10 A: Just a bunch of swearing -- swearing 11 and all that stuff. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: Yelling. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I would get to the specific points 16 but I don't -- don't want to say -- from the ones I -- 17 the words I was using. 18 Q: All right. You were swearing at 19 them? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Did you see an incident 22 involving picnic tables in the sandy parking lot? 23 A: No, not at first. 24 Q: Okay. Well, what did you see? 25 A: I can't remember where I was -- where
2291 I was that night. But I remember doing it the second 2 time that happened. 3 Q: Okay. Well, you tell us -- tell us 4 what you remember about whatever incident you were 5 involved in? 6 A: Moving some picnic tables out, and I 7 don't know who was helping me carrying one (1). 8 Q: All right. So you're moving picnic 9 tables from inside the Park to the parking lot? 10 A: Yes. I don't know who was helping me 11 carrying one (1). 12 Q: All right. Were there other people 13 doing the same thing? 14 A: From what I can see; I don't know who 15 they were though. 16 Q: Okay. But there were other people -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- taking picnic tables from the 19 Park -- 20 A: Yes. I don't know who. 21 Q: -- to the parking lot? 22 A: Couldn't see who they were. 23 Q: Do you know how many tables might 24 have been moved in that fashion? 25 A: About little more than half (1/2) a
2301 dozen, I believe. 2 Q: All right. And go on and tell us 3 what -- what happened? 4 A: I just seen one (1) cruiser pushing 5 the picnic tables, slow, when we were bringing the picnic 6 tables to the fence. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: To bring them over the fence. 9 Q: Right. And when you say "a cruiser", 10 I'm going to assume that -- 11 A: Cop car. 12 Q: -- that's a police cruiser? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And he's pushing the picnic table 15 with the car? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And which -- where is he 18 pushing the table to? 19 A: Back towards the fence, towards where 20 the Park is. 21 Q: All right. All right. Go ahead. 22 What happens? 23 A: I don't know, everything was just 24 going too fast that night, with the picnic tables. 25 Q: So what did you do about this?
2311 A: I was inside the Park helping 2 bringing -- carrying the picnic tables over. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: Didn't see too much of what was going 5 on outside the fence there. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: But I noticed one (1) -- one (1) cop 8 car was pushing the picnic tables. 9 Q: Were there other cop cars, to use 10 your language, around, in the area? 11 A: No. I just noticed the one (1). 12 Q: Go ahead. What happens? 13 A: I don't know what he done after that, 14 he just backed up, and I don't know where he went after 15 that. 16 Q: Okay. What did you do? 17 A: Just kept bringing picnic tables 18 over. 19 Q: All right. Do you recall whether 20 there were any rocks thrown or any such thing? 21 A: No. 22 Q: You don't recall or there weren't? 23 A: I don't know. 24 Q: All right. Did you throw any rocks? 25 A: At the police, yeah.
2321 Q: Yeah. Well, that's what I'm asking - 2 A: Not at the cop cars. 3 Q: Okay. You're going to have to -- 4 A: Well, what I meant -- was I thought 5 you mean throwing stones at the cop cars. 6 Q: That's what I'm asking you about. So 7 the police car that's pushing the picnic tables, were you 8 involved in any -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- throwing of rocks at this 11 vehicle -- 12 A: No. 13 Q: -- or other vehicles? All right. 14 And were you inside or outside the Park when the police 15 car is pushing this picnic table? 16 A: Inside. 17 Q: Do you know whether or not there was 18 anybody on the table when the police car was pushing it? 19 A: No, I didn't see that part. 20 Q: All right. And after this police car 21 pushes this picnic table, what happened? Where does -- 22 where does the police car go? 23 A: Backed up as far as I know. I didn't 24 see the first commotion about that though. 25 Q: Okay. Is it your understanding that
2331 there was other incidents involving police cars and 2 picnic tables? 3 A: As far as I know, yeah. 4 Q: During that time that you were in the 5 Park and now we're talking about the 5th of September, 6 had you been consuming any alcohol that day, Mr. George? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Is there any reason why other than 9 you might not have had any? Did anybody tell you not to? 10 A: No. 11 Q: On the 5th of September, did you or 12 did any of the people that you were with, bring any 13 firearms into the Park? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did you have any firearms at that 16 point? 17 A: No. 18 Q: On the night of September the 4th 19 you've told us already that you stayed there all night. 20 Did you sleep at all that night? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you sleep at all during the day 23 of September the 5th? 24 A: No. 25 Q: What about the night of September
2341 5th? Did you stay at the Park that night as well? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did you sleep that night? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And other than -- you've told us 6 earlier that there was an understanding that no guns 7 would be brought into the Park, is that fair? 8 A: Yes. That was talked amongst -- 9 amongst the people. 10 Q: Okay. And was that still the 11 understanding on September the 5th and into the evening 12 of September the 5th? 13 A: Yes. There was still no guns 14 allowed. 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Commissioner, I 16 realize it's slightly before the appointed time when we 17 were going to adjourn. 18 COMMISSIONER: You're just going to move 19 into September the 6th now. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: I was going to and I 21 wonder if this might be an appropriate place simply to -- 22 rather than getting into that. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 24 would be a good time to break for the day. It's a little 25 early but not too much. I think it would be a suitable
2351 time to break. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: And perhaps just 3 before we do, My Friends have -- have given me some good 4 advice and that is that the maps that Mr. George has 5 marked upon, I would be asked that those be made 6 exhibits. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's do 8 them. I don't know how many there are, let's put them -- 9 there's just one? 10 THE REGISTRAR: That is just the one. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What number 12 does it become? What number would it be? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-77. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-77: Document No. 1002409, Page 13 16 map of Ipperwash Military 17 Reserve marked by witness 18 Clayton George, Jr. 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there 21 anything else, Mr. Worme, before we adjourn? 22 MR. DONALD WORME: No, no, Mr. 23 Commissioner, thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're having 25 a short week next week. We only have three (3) days next
2361 week and then after our one week off, we have three (3) 2 consecutive weeks. We should be able to get a lot of 3 witnesses done. 4 Thank you all very, very much. We'll see 5 you all on next Monday morning at 10:30. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 8 adjourned until Monday, November 8th at 10:30 a.m. 9 10 --- Upon adjourning at 3:20 p.m. 11 12 13 14 Certified Correct 15 16 17 18 _____________________ 19 Wendy Warnock 20 Court Reporter 21 22 23 24 25