11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 3rd, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) (np) Police 21 Peter West ) 22 23 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 24 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 25 Debra Newell ) K. Deane
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 ELWOOD TRACY GEORGE, Affirmed: 6 7 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 8 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 143 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 155 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter West 159 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 190 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-74 DOCUMENT 1004562 (LAST PAGE) 4 MARKED AND SIGNED BY ELWOOD T. 5 GEORGE SEPT 10/97 2:18 P.M. 6 "STAN" THOMPSON DRAWING 113 7 P-75 "STAN" THOMPSON DRAWING SEPT 20/95 8 MARKED BY WITNESS ELWOOD GEORGE NOV 9 03/04 122 10 P-76: "STAN" THOMPSON DRAWING SEPT 20/95 11 MARKED BY ELWOOD GEORGE WITH NAME 12 "ELWOOD GEORGE" ON TOP RIGHT-HAND 13 CORNER OF DRAWING, 14 DRAWING APRIL 02/97 123 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding, please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 7 everyone. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning, Ms. Vella. Just before you call your first 12 witness, we have some guests this morning. I just want 13 to -- want to mention it. We have three (3) young women 14 who are here who are daughters of various members of our 15 team here who -- whose assignment in school was to see 16 what their parents do when they go to work all day. 17 And we have a variety of folks here. One 18 of the young women is a daughter of somebody from the 19 media. One of the young women is a daughter of one of 20 the counsel and one of the young women is a daughter of 21 one our administrative staff. 22 So they're going to be hanging around all 23 day if you see them and they're learning what their 24 parents do all day. So, welcome. Hope you have an 25 interesting day and you see what your mothers do all day,
81 and fathers. That's it. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission calls as 3 its next witness, Elwood George. 4 5 ELWOOD TRACY GEORGE, Affirmed 6 7 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 9 A: Good morning. 10 Q: Your name is spelled E-L-W-O-O-D 11 T-R-A-C-Y -- 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: G-E-O-R-G-E? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Thank you. And do you have any other 16 names by which you are commonly referred? 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. I understand that your 19 date of birth is May 12th, 1960? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Can you tell us what your current 22 residence is please? 23 A: Stoney Point, apartment 22B. 24 Q: And is that in the former barracks of 25 Camp Ipperwash?
91 A: Yes. 2 Q: What is your current marital status? 3 A: Single. 4 Q: Do you have any children? 5 A: One (1). 6 Q: And what's his name and date of 7 birth? 8 A: Wesley Gardner (phonetic) George, 9 January 10th, 1980. 10 Q: Okay. Now, I'll just ask you to keep 11 your voice up so we can all -- all hear you, thank you. 12 Do you have any siblings? 13 A: Siblings? 14 Q: Any sisters or brothers? 15 A: Yes, I do. 16 Q: And can you list in order of age, 17 starting from the eldest, who those brothers and sisters 18 are? 19 A: Well the oldest would Verle 20 (phonetic) Earl, the next would be Carl George, deceased, 21 Franklin George, Joy Lewis, Mary Joseph, Roderick George, 22 Stewart George, Tina George, myself, and Robert George. 23 Q: And do you have a sister named Sandra 24 Mundane (phonetic)? 25 A: Oh, oh yeah.
101 Q: Thank you. Now are you related at 2 all to Nicholas Cottrelle? 3 A: I'm his uncle. 4 Q: Right. And were you related in any 5 way to Dudley George? 6 A: First cousin. 7 Q: Can you tell me the names of your 8 parents? 9 A: Abraham George, deceased, Muriel 10 George. 11 Q: And what were the names of your 12 mother's parents. 13 A: Mother's parents? Phoebe (phonetic) 14 Smith, William Smith, I believe. 15 Q: The names of your father's parents? 16 A: Robert George, Laura George. 17 Q: Did any of your ancestors, to your 18 knowledge, formerly reside at the -- what was then the 19 Stoney Point Reserve? 20 A: Yes, they did. 21 Q: Can you tell me, to the best of your 22 recollection, which of those ancestors lived there? 23 A: Well, my -- my father, the earliest I 24 know of was a person called Manduka; that was his full 25 name. And he was given the name George. I don't know
111 anything about his wife other than I -- I think maybe the 2 last name may -- last name might have been Jeanette 3 (phonetic) or something to that effect. 4 Q: All right. And your father, did he 5 have siblings who also resided -- brothers and sisters 6 who -- 7 A: Yes. His father was Robert George 8 and the mother was Laura George. I can't really -- 9 really remember at this -- at this moment. 10 Q: All right. That's fair enough. Do 11 you -- do you recall whether your father had any brothers 12 or sisters who live at the Reserve? 13 A: At -- at what time? 14 Q: Before it was appropriated in 1942? 15 A: Oh yeah. They had -- they had quite 16 a big family. I -- I don't know whether or not they -- 17 they all lived on Stoney Point at that time or not, but 18 Robert George was one of them, Dan Senior was one, Bruce 19 George. 20 Had a sister Daisy, a sister Theresa. I 21 don't know whether or not they -- they were there at the 22 time but I would imagine so because they were -- they 23 were younger. 24 And one Tom -- Tom George, Thomas George. 25 I -- I think that might be it. I can't really remember.
121 Q: All right. Thank you. I understand 2 that prior to 1995 you were the subject of some criminal 3 convictions; is that right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I understand that on May the 3rd, 6 1977, you were convicted of theft under two hundred 7 dollars ($200); is that right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Received a fine of two hundred 10 dollars ($200) and one (1) year probation? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: On -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Thank you. September the 27th, 1977, 15 you were convicted of possession of narcotics and 16 received a fine of two hundred dollars ($200) and seven 17 (7) days incarceration? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: February the 17th, 1981, you were 20 convicted of assaulting a peace officer and received a 21 fine of a hundred and fifty dollars ($150) and ten (10) 22 days in jail? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And just let me pause on that. I 25 understand that you pled guilty?
131 A: Yeah, I did. 2 Q: Can you tell me briefly the 3 circumstances of that event? 4 A: The actual -- the actual assault? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Yes. I and my brother -- me and my 7 brother were racing -- racing in front of the pow wow in 8 Kettle Point and we pulled in to my mother's house and 9 the -- the police followed us in there. And -- and we 10 got out of the cars and then my cousin, Rodney Buss 11 (phonetic) the OPP officer who I assaulted, he hit my 12 brother on the forehead with his billy club and my 13 brother started bleeding. 14 So I -- I went to -- to Rodney Buss and, 15 you know, I kind of tugged on his -- his uniform and 16 asked him, Don't you think my brother had enough. 17 And he turned around and -- and started 18 swinging his club at me. And so I crossed my arms and I 19 got a hold of his billy club somehow and -- and I started 20 hitting him with it. 21 Q: Okay. And which brother was involved 22 in this? 23 A: Roderick George. 24 Q: All right. And you say the police 25 officer in question was your cousin?
141 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, I 3 understand also, on September the 12th, 1989, you were 4 convicted of refusing to provide a sample for an alcohol 5 test? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you received a fine of five 8 hundred dollars ($500)? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And on July 2nd, 1991 you were 11 convicted of driving while impaired and failure to 12 provide a breath sample for which you received a fine of 13 eight hundred and twenty-five dollars ($825) and fourteen 14 (14) days in jail? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And your licence was suspended for two 17 (2) years? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And, now, I understand that that 20 concludes all -- any convictions that you received prior 21 to the events of September the 6th, 1995? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Thank you. Can you tell the 24 Commission when and from whom you first learned of the 25 circumstances of the former Stoney Point Reserve and its
151 appropriation? 2 A: Repeat that again? 3 Q: When did you first learn about the 4 former Stoney Point Reserve and what happened to it? 5 A: You mean about the expropriation? 6 Q: That's right. 7 A: Just -- I -- I can't remember how old 8 I was; I was -- I was probably around -- real young, and 9 I've -- I've heard about this all my life is -- is that 10 they were simply moved off. 11 Q: Okay. And who -- who did you learn 12 this from? 13 A: My father. 14 Q: Did your father ever talk to you about 15 the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 16 A: Yeah. Yeah, I -- I picked up bits and 17 pieces throughout the years. 18 Q: What did you learn about the Ipperwash 19 Provincial Park that was important to you? 20 A: Well, I -- I -- I didn't know it at 21 the time, but he talked of a man named Kimone (phonetic) 22 that lived down in there in the Park, right on the Point. 23 I -- I didn't realize that at that time that -- that was 24 one (1) of my grandfathers and he also talked of my Uncle 25 Fletcher was buried in the Park.
161 Q: Who told you that? 2 A: My father. 3 Q: Okay. And did your father talk to you 4 about any traditions or obligations relative to 5 aboriginal burial grounds? 6 A: Not -- not -- not really. Not -- not 7 when I was -- I was young. He never really talked about 8 -- about the land in -- in great detail. 9 Q: All right. Did you subsequently learn 10 about traditions concerning burial grounds? 11 A: Well, I -- I -- I knew that they -- 12 they had to be protected. Oh, God -- they weren't to be 13 disturbed by -- by anybody. 14 Q: Did you ever go onto the lands which 15 were then known as the Camp Ipperwash lands prior to 16 1993? 17 A: Yeah, we used to -- we used to go to 18 the -- to the dump there and we used to go into the bush 19 picking morels. We used to go to the beach. We used to 20 go do a little bit wood cutting there and used to have to 21 go Kettle Point Council -- Council Hall to get wood 22 cutting tickets then. My Uncle Dan's funeral, we went 23 there. I think that might have been it. 24 Q: I'm sorry, I didn't -- 25 A: I -- I think that might have been --
171 been all. 2 Q: Okay. And were you involved in any 3 efforts, such as demonstrations, to get back the Camp 4 Ipperwash lands prior to 1993? 5 A: Not -- not really. I remember 6 attending a -- a few meetings that pertained to the land 7 issue in -- in the United Church -- the United Church in 8 Kettle Point. 9 Q: At the United or Baptist -- 10 A: United. 11 Q: -- United Church at Kettle Point? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And who organized those 14 meetings? 15 A: I -- I think it was called a steering 16 committee at that time. I'm really not -- not too sure 17 but my Aunt Melva had a lot to do with it. 18 Q: All right. When did you move to your 19 current resident at the barracks? 20 A: January 1996. 21 Q: Where did you live immediately before 22 moving into the barracks? 23 A: At my parents' house on Kettle Point, 24 12 Indian Lane. 25 Q: Sorry?
181 A: 12 Indian Lane. 2 Q: Thank you. And how long had you 3 lived on the Kettle Point Reserve? 4 A: Well, all my life. 5 Q: How well did you know Dudley George? 6 A: Well, I would say good. 7 Q: And how would you describe him? 8 A: Well, he was -- he loved to play, he 9 loved kids. He was all around good guy, always happy. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: He was never, you know, a person to 12 go around fighting. He wasn't a type of person to -- to 13 pick fights. He was good-natured, I -- I guess. 14 Q: Okay. Did you ever talk to him about 15 -- well, let me ask you this. To your knowledge, was he 16 ever involved in efforts to reclaim the former Stoney 17 Point Reserve? 18 A: Prior to '93? 19 Q: At any time. 20 A: Well, I -- I really can't recall. I 21 really didn't have a -- a great deal of contact with him 22 because he was out at Forrest and that's a little 23 distance away. And I -- I was living in -- in Sarnia for 24 a while too. So I -- I really don't know on that 25 question.
191 Q: Fair enough. I understand that your 2 trade is -- is carpentry? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And how long have you had that trade? 5 How long have you been working as a carpenter? 6 A: I -- I've had odd jobs when I was 7 younger and I believe it would be -- it would be about 8 1983 or somewheres along that line, where I -- I took a - 9 - a few courses through Langton College (phonetic) for 10 carpenters. 11 Q: Now, you -- you've indicated that 12 prior to moving into the barracks in January of '96, you 13 lived at Kettle Point in your parents' house? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now during the period from 16 approximately May of 1993 to approximately September the 17 1st of 1995, did you ever pay any visits to the Camp 18 Ipperwash lands? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And what was the purpose of those 21 visits? 22 A: Probably there was a variety of 23 things. some was to go -- go and help them cut wood, 24 whether it was for heat for them or -- or to sell for 25 food or whatever. Sometimes it was to run bushes and
201 hunt for deer. 2 Q: Run bushes for fear -- the bear -- 3 A: The deer. 4 Q: -- sorry, the deer? What does that 5 mean? Tell me what that means. 6 A: Where a group of people would enter 7 on one (1) side of the bush in a line -- formation of a 8 line from one (1) side to the other and -- and go 9 through and make noise to chase the deer out the other 10 side of the bush where -- where some shooters would be 11 waiting for the deer to exit the bush and hopefully shoot 12 them. 13 Q: And who were you helping 14 specifically? 15 A: The majority of time it would the 16 younger guys that were occupying up on Stoney Point. 17 Q: How frequently would you say that you 18 would visit the lands to help out during this general 19 time period? 20 A: Oh sometimes it would be frequent and 21 -- it varied, sometimes once a week, sometimes maybe once 22 every two (2) weeks. It varied. 23 Q: During this time period, were you 24 working from time to time as a carpenter? 25 A: Yes, I was.
211 Q: During this time frame of '93 to 2 early September '95, did you own any guns or firearms? 3 A: Yes, I owned two (2) guns at that 4 time. 5 Q: Can you tell me what types of guns 6 you owned at that time? 7 A: One was a long-barrelled 410 shotgun 8 and the other was a short-barrelled 12 gauge bolt action. 9 Q: 12 gauge? 10 A: Bolt action. 11 Q: Bolt action, okay. What did you use 12 these particular rifles for? 13 A: Rabbit hunting. 14 Q: And can you tell me what type of 15 range did the 12 gauge have? 16 A: For long distance it was -- it was no 17 good because the shortness of the barrel, the pattern 18 would get too large and therefore would be no good for -- 19 for rabbits, whereas the 12 gauge it was good for short 20 to fairly long distance because of the long barrel would 21 keep a close pattern. 22 Q: Okay. Let me just -- make sure I 23 understand. The 12 gauge was a short range, did you say? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And the 410 long barrel had a longer
221 range? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And what type of ammunition 4 did you use with these particular rifles? 5 A: It would be anywhere from -- from two 6 (2) to four (4) shot. Number two (2) to four (4) shot. 7 It's the diameter of the pellets in the shells. 8 Q: So are these relatively small bullets 9 as they go? 10 A: They're -- they're shells, they're 11 pellets inside of a shell. 12 Q: Okay, thank you. Did you hunt at all 13 from time to time on the Camp Ipperwash lands between '93 14 and September of '95? 15 A: Yes. We did some rabbit hunting 16 there and -- and like I said, I did go down and help them 17 run some bushes. 18 Q: And so is it fair to say that -- that 19 some of the occupants at that time also had rifles, to 20 your knowledge? 21 A: Oh, oh, yes, for -- for hunting 22 purposes, yes. 23 Q: All right. Specifically, did you ever 24 see Dudley George hunt with a rifle? 25 A: No. Not -- not really with a rifle.
231 He was more or less one (1) of the ones running through 2 the bush. I -- I -- I don't think he was really much of 3 a hunter. 4 Q: He ran the bush with you sometimes? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Were you present in August 7 of 1993, following the alleged event of a helicopter 8 shooting? 9 A: No, I wasn't. 10 Q: Okay. Did you, from time to time, 11 have any interactions with the military when you would 12 visit the camp? 13 A: Yes. Yes, I did. 14 Q: And can you describe the nature of 15 those interactions? 16 A: Oh, little -- little arguments here 17 and there. I know, everybody would tell them, after 18 these little arguments or what -- whatever. I -- I think 19 Dudley started this one (1) with a -- with all the -- the 20 personnel that they were fired. 21 Q: Okay. Do you recall a -- an incident 22 occurring involving yourself and two (2) others and the 23 Military on or about February the 24th, 1994 in the 24 parade square of the military camp -- the barracks? 25 A: Yes. One (1) of my friends was
241 driving my -- my father's truck that -- that I was 2 driving, but it -- it was in his name. 3 Q: So, it's your -- your father's truck, 4 but one (1) of your friends was driving it? 5 A: Yeah, one (1) of my friends; I was a 6 passenger in the middle and I had another friend on the 7 passenger side and I believe we were in the built-up 8 area. 9 We were getting -- we were getting chased 10 by the MPs and -- and we -- we got into the grass somehow 11 and -- and we spun around so that -- that we were facing 12 the MPs and -- and we ended up chasing them around. 13 Q: What were you doing in the built-up 14 area in the first place? 15 A: I -- I really can't recall. I -- I 16 can't remember if we were just -- just going for a ride 17 or -- if we were -- we were going to -- to -- to -- to 18 see somewhere. I can't really recall. 19 Q: And do you recall whether or not you 20 were under the influence of alcohol? 21 A: I -- I was, yes. 22 Q: And when you refer to MPs do you mean 23 Military Police? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: Did your vehicle make contact with the
251 military police vehicle, to the best of your 2 recollection? 3 A: Not -- not that I remember, no. 4 Q: Were you ever interviewed or 5 questioned by -- by either the Military Police or members 6 of the Ontario Provincial Police over this incident? 7 A: Never. 8 Q: What was the name of the driver? 9 A: I -- I think it was Warren George. 10 Q: And who was the other passenger? 11 A: I -- I believe it was either -- either 12 Kevin Simon or Marlin Simon. I'm -- I'm -- I can't 13 remember. 14 Q: All right. Did you have any 15 understanding with respect to whether there were -- the - 16 - barracks area, the built-up area, was off-limits to 17 you? 18 A: I -- not to my knowledge. 19 Q: What about the area that was being 20 occupied by the Stoney Point People who were there? Was 21 there any understanding to your knowledge that that was 22 off limits to the military? 23 A: No. Again, not to my knowledge. 24 Q: Are there any other incidents that 25 you can recollect in which you were directly involved
261 with the military or the military police? 2 A: Yes. There -- there was one. I 3 can't tell you when it was but I can tell you what -- 4 what happened. 5 Q: What happened? 6 A: Me and my girlfriend, we were 7 travelling from the beach way towards -- towards Dudley's 8 trailer through the bush and when we came near the road, 9 I don't know the name of that road, there -- there is no 10 name for it yet. But it goes past the -- from Matheson 11 Drive along the Inland Lakes towards -- towards Outer 12 Drive and -- 13 Q: This is inside the -- Camp Ipperwash? 14 A: Inside the Army Camp. Yeah. Anyways 15 before we got on -- on the road that night, it goes 16 towards, well by the Inland Lakes that -- that the army 17 personnel in the -- in the pickup trucks, they got ahead 18 of us before we could get on that road, so we were behind 19 them and they -- they just deliberately slowed down. 20 My girlfriend was driving so I reached 21 over with my foot and I pressed down on the gas and we 22 rammed them. And somewhere's along the line we got -- we 23 got by them because I remember waiting at the trailer and 24 -- for them and they pulled beside us and they -- they 25 told me that next time I ram their vehicle that they
271 would call -- call the proper authorities and have me 2 arrested and thrown in jail. 3 Excuse the language, but I just told them, 4 fuck you, you're fired. And that was it. 5 Q: And was there any follow up to that 6 incident by the authorities? 7 A: None. 8 Q: Mr. George, are you a member of a 9 Warrior Society? 10 A: No, not really. I would consider 11 myself a Warrior but as far as it goes as a member of a 12 Warrior Society, no. 13 Q: Did you -- I'm sorry, I didn't hear 14 the first part? Did you said that -- that you considered 15 yourself to be a Warrior? 16 A: Well, yeah. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: In some way or another. 19 Q: And can you tell me what -- what it 20 means to you to be a Warrior? 21 A: Well it's something -- it's something 22 you're born -- born into. It's not given to you or 23 somebody will tell you, well here you're -- you're a 24 Warrior. It's -- your born into it. It's in your choice 25 whether to follow up on it, whether you're going to be
281 that -- that Warrior or -- or not. It's up to that 2 individual himself. 3 Q: And for yourself, what if any 4 obligations do you take on as a Warrior? 5 A: To my understanding it's a person 6 that takes it upon -- upon himself or themselves to -- to 7 protect the land, protect the people and the women and 8 the children, the Elders. 9 Q: I'm sorry, what was the last thing? 10 A: The Elders, past, present and future. 11 Q: To look after the Elders, past, 12 present and future? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: What do you mean by that? 15 A: Well, the past meaning our ancestors, 16 the present meaning the people who are living now, the 17 future meaning the future generations. 18 Q: And by looking after the Elders and 19 women and children, what does that entail for you 20 specifically? What does that mean for you? 21 A: Can you -- can you repeat that? 22 Q: Sure. What -- in order to discharge 23 your obligation to look after the Elders, women and 24 children, what do you have to do? What do you do, I 25 should say? Just in a general way.
291 A: I -- I would say to -- to make -- 2 make sure that they are comfortable, I -- I guess. 3 Q: So does that entail food or -- what 4 does that entail? 5 A: I -- I guess it could be a -- a 6 number of different ways. Whether -- whether or not they 7 need help with a variety of things, simple, ordinary 8 everyday -- everyday needs. 9 Q: Were you one of the members who would 10 attend at any sessions with Marcia Simon in relation to 11 Warriors? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. Now, you -- you've told 14 us already that -- that you didn't move into the barracks 15 until January of '96. But were you present and part of 16 the initial group to walk into the barracks on or about 17 July 29th, 1995? 18 A: No, I wasn't. 19 Q: Did you visit the barracks from time 20 to time between July 29th of '95 and September the 3rd of 21 1995? 22 A: Not -- not very often, no. I -- I 23 did but not very often. 24 Q: Were you aware of any plans to go 25 into the barracks in advance?
301 A: No. No, I wasn't. I -- I first 2 heard about when I -- I was working in Kettle Point, that 3 they went in. 4 Q: Okay. Were you part of the initial 5 group who walked into the Park on September the 4th, 6 1995? 7 A: No, I wasn't. Again, I was in Kettle 8 Point when I -- I heard that they were in -- inside the 9 Park. 10 Q: All right. How did you first learn 11 that certain individuals had occupied the Park? 12 A: By phone. My -- my sister phoned my 13 father's house and -- and called him up to ask my father 14 if he -- he wanted to go down to -- to see what was going 15 on, or something to that effect, so. 16 Q: Which sister was that? 17 A: Tina George. 18 Q: Tina George? All right. Did you 19 know in advance of September 4th of any plans to enter an 20 occupy the Park? 21 A: No, I didn't. 22 Q: What, if anything, did you do 23 following receiving the phone call from Tina? 24 A: I -- I asked my father if he -- if 25 he'd like to go down there and he said, Yes, he would
311 like to go down. 2 Q: All right. And what did you do next? 3 A: I went out and went to the Park. 4 Q: Approximately what time on Monday, 5 September the 4th, was this? 6 A: 7:00 or 8:00; late in the after -- in 7 the afternoon. 8 Q: You consider 7:00 or 8:00 p.m. late 9 in the afternoon? 10 A: Well, early evening or -- yeah, I do. 11 Q: I just want to make sure we have your 12 evidence. Approximately -- are you saying it was 13 approximately 7:00 or 8:00 or -- 14 A: Yeah. It -- it was late, yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And you went with your father? 16 A: Yeah. We drove him -- him down. 17 Q: Did anyone else accompany you in the 18 car? 19 A: Sherry Lynn Bressette. 20 Q: All right. Now, can you tell me by 21 what entrance you entered the Park? 22 A: The Park, we came in to the road 23 where the MNR maintenance shack is located. 24 Q: That's the Ministry of Natural 25 Resources maintenance shed?
321 A: Yeah, the road runs south to north. 2 It -- it starts at Mathe -- north -- south side towards 3 Matheson Drive and runs north to near the treatment 4 centre. 5 Q: And did you enter through a gate -- 6 into the Park? 7 A: Well, if there was one (1) at the 8 maintenance shack at the time, yeah. 9 Q: All right. Did you observe or witness 10 any members of the Ontario Provincial Police in or around 11 the -- the Park when you entered it between 7:00 and 8:00 12 that night? 13 A: Pardon? 14 Q: Did you witness any OPP officers when 15 you entered the Park? 16 A: I can't remember if they were there 17 when we got there or not, but if they -- if they weren't 18 they -- it didn't take them too long to get there. 19 Q: All right. When -- when you entered 20 the Park, where did you drive to? 21 A: Over in the vicinity of -- of where 22 the Park store was. 23 Q: And, as I understand it, the Park 24 store was on the -- the west end of the Park? 25 A: Yes, it is.
331 Q: Somewhat close to the intersection of 2 -- of Army Camp Road and -- and East Parkway Drive, that 3 part of the Park? 4 A: Around that vicinity, yes. 5 Q: Okay. Describe the -- what you saw 6 when you got out of your car at the -- at the Parking -- 7 at the store. 8 A: I seen -- there was quite a bit of -- 9 of people around there. I'd -- I'd say maybe fifteen 10 (15) -- maybe twenty (20), around -- around that area. 11 Q: And what were they doing? 12 A: Just -- just sitting around. 13 Q: And can you tell me the composition of 14 people? Who, you know, were they -- what type of people 15 were there? 16 A: There was elderly people, there were 17 young people, middle-aged. 18 Q: Okay. Men and women? 19 A: Yes. Kids, yeah. 20 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether or not 21 Dudley George was there? 22 A: I -- I believe he was, yes. 23 Q: And do you recall any other particular 24 people? Any -- any of your brothers or sisters there? 25 A: Tina was there. Rosalie Manning was
341 there; one (1) of her daughters. I think my brother was 2 there. I think Kevin Simon was there. I think -- that's 3 all I can remember, but there -- there was quite a bit 4 more than that. 5 Q: Okay. That's -- that's fine. Did you 6 observe, during the course -- Well, let me ask you this, 7 how long did you stay in the Park that night? 8 A: Two (2) hours, maybe. I -- I'm not 9 too sure. It would be -- a guess would be maybe two (2) 10 hours, hour and a half, because my -- my father was there 11 and he was -- he was quite old at the time. 12 Q: So you took him back somewhere? 13 A: Yeah, I took him back home. 14 Q: Okay. And did you return to the Park 15 later that evening? 16 A: I -- I don't think that evening, no. 17 Q: All right. Now, during the course of 18 the approximately one and a half (1 1/2) to two (2) hours 19 that you were at the Park that evening, did you observe 20 any fireworks? 21 A: I know there was these things called 22 strobe lights. They're -- they're -- they are a type of 23 a flare. 24 Q: Can you please describe them for me, 25 please?
351 A: They're -- they're shaped kind of like 2 a -- a cupcake. I would say maybe an inch in roundness, 3 maybe -- maybe -- maybe half (1/2) inch thick wick -- 4 wick pointing out of them. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. A wick? All right. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And -- and when you light this wick, 8 what happens? 9 A: They -- they emit bright -- bright 10 flashes of light. 11 Q: Approximately how long or what's the 12 duration of the light? 13 A: Maybe -- maybe fifteen (15) seconds. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Maybe a little bit more. 16 Q: Do you know -- do you recall 17 specifically who had these -- what you're calling strobe 18 lights? 19 A: I -- I gave -- I gave them to my boy. 20 Q: To Wesley? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And do you know -- why did you do 23 that? 24 A: I was given stuff like that; it was 25 nothing out of the ordinary.
361 Q: Okay. Did you see anyone else that 2 evening with -- with any kind of fireworks or these 3 strobe lights? 4 A: No, I didn't. 5 Q: All right. Did you see whether or 6 not your son used them -- lit them? 7 A: Well, I'd imagine he did because 8 there -- there was some lit. I -- I know they were them 9 strobe lights. 10 Q: You saw them? 11 A: Yeah. I -- I seen them. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Emitting the light, yes. 14 Q: And do these make any noise when you 15 light them? 16 A: No, they don't. 17 Q: All right. Were you present during 18 an incident that we've heard about in -- involving your 19 brother Roderick George and the OPP? 20 A: Yeah. I was there. 21 Q: Can you tell me what you saw and what 22 you heard about that incident, that -- that is what you 23 heard directly, in your presence? 24 A: Well, I know it was George Speck 25 (phonetic) that came there and -- and he says, What are
371 you people doing. I know that was him. 2 Q: How did you know that was him? 3 A: Well, I -- I've known him, I'd say 4 personally, for a while, yeah. 5 Q: And is he an OPP officer? 6 A: Yes, he is. 7 Q: Okay. Was he by himself? 8 A: No. There was -- there was quite a 9 few more police officers that were present. 10 Q: All right. And were they there -- 11 well, when you say "present", where were they physically? 12 A: They were around in that vicinity, to 13 -- between us, there, and -- and towards -- towards the 14 main gate of that -- of that -- of that camp -- camp 15 entrance. 16 Q: The camp entrance? 17 A: Towards -- towards that direction 18 but -- 19 Q: Not -- okay. Let -- let me ask you 20 this. Were the police officers inside or outside of the 21 Park? 22 A: At that time they were inside the 23 Park. 24 Q: Okay. And so you're describing the 25 area somewhere around the fence and the -- the Park, the
381 store? What you're looking at right now is a -- a 2 diagram of the intersection of Army Camp Road and East 3 Parkway Drive, and it's marked "Elwood" -- okay. You're 4 -- okay. Hang on. We have to get -- 5 Mr. George, I'm sorry, I didn't know you 6 were going to do this. We need to get the microphone to 7 you. Hang on. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We seem to 12 have misplaced the hand mike. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. Mr. Miller has 17 put onto the screen for us a diagram entitled: "Welcome 18 to Ipperwash". And I'll just get the Inquiry documents 19 number for the record. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 1002409. Also exhibit 21 P-61. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. All right. It's 23 exhibit P-61 and Inquiry Document Number 1002409. Thank 24 you. 25
391 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Using your laser pointer, point to 3 the approximate vicinity where Officer Speck and other 4 OPP officers were gathered. 5 A: It would be roughly around in that 6 area. 7 Q: All right. And you're pointing to 8 the area entitled or labelled 'Park Store'? 9 A: Yeah, near the store there. Around 10 there. 11 Q: Okay. Were there any police cruisers 12 inside the Park at this time? 13 A: I -- I can't recall how much -- how 14 much cruisers were -- were actually in the Park. 15 Q: All right. Perhaps you can just tell 16 me then what you remember occurred? 17 A: My brother Judas was there and he -- 18 he gave the police, I think it was twenty (20) seconds to 19 leave and one of the officers started talking back so he 20 said, you got ten (10) seconds to leave. And I think 21 that's when he smashed the window out of the police 22 cruiser. But they did leave shortly after that. 23 Q: I'm sorry they? 24 A: They -- they did leave shortly after 25 that.
401 Q: All right. Let's just backup for one 2 second then. You said that George Speck said something 3 to the effect of, what are you guys doing here? 4 A: What are you people doing? 5 Q: People? Okay. And did he say 6 anything else that you can -- that you can recall? 7 A: No. I -- I can't really recall 8 anything else. 9 Q: All right. Do you recall whether any 10 of the police officers said words to the effect that you 11 should leave the Park? 12 A: Yeah, I -- I believe -- I kind of 13 think that's why my brother gave them twenty (20) 14 seconds. 15 Q: Did you actually hear a police 16 officer tell you to leave the Park? 17 A: It -- it's hard to remember. I -- 18 I'd have to say no. 19 Q: I can only ask you for the best of 20 your recollection. I know it's many, many years ago so. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. And did you recognize any 23 of the other police officers aside from George Speck? 24 A: No, no, I didn't myself, no. 25 Q: Now you said your brother Judas
411 smashed the car window, is that Roderick George? 2 A: Yes, it is. 3 Q: Can you tell me which window he 4 smashed? 5 A: I believe it was the rear window. 6 Q: Of a police cruiser? 7 A: Yes, it was. 8 Q: And did the window shatter? 9 A: I -- I believe it did shatter, yes. 10 That's why I -- I think it was the rear because the 11 fronts don't -- don't shatter like that. 12 Q: Okay. Do you recall what object your 13 brother used when he struck the cruiser window? 14 A: A stick. 15 Q: And can you please, to the best of 16 your recollection, describe the stick? 17 A: Long I guess. I really can't 18 describe it. 19 Q: How long -- 20 A: Before that -- before the window was 21 -- was smashed, my brother and the police were having a 22 few words but I don't remember what they were. But 23 that's when I -- I jumped up and asked the guys to come 24 and stand behind Judas to -- to, you know, to let him 25 know that that he wasn't alone. That -- I -- I guess it
421 would give him a stronger sense of, I can't explain it -- 2 a feeling. He knows that we were backing him up. I -- I 3 guess that's the way to put it. 4 Q: All right. And were you carrying 5 anything in your hand when you did this? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you see any of the other 8 individuals from your group with objects in their hand? 9 A: At that time, I -- I don't think so. 10 Q: All right. And do you recall who 11 those individuals were? Or any of them -- they guys 12 who -- 13 A: On our side? It would be probably the 14 same ones I had mentioned earlier. 15 Q: Okay. All right. At this time, did 16 you have any -- any bonfires going? 17 A: There -- there might have been a fire 18 over -- over near the store. I can't really recall. 19 Q: Did anybody that you saw throw any 20 rocks or objects at the police or at the police cruisers 21 during this incident? 22 A: Not that I -- I remember; not at that 23 time. 24 Q: All right. How about as they left? 25 A: No, I didn't see any rocks thrown
431 there. 2 Q: Sorry? 3 A: I -- I didn't see anybody throwing no 4 rocks or -- or anything. 5 Q: Did you see anybody throwing any 6 objects like flares or sticks or burning sticks or 7 anything like that? 8 A: The -- the flares, I knew, were being 9 thrown because I -- I knew what they were, but as -- as 10 far as the burning sticks, I -- I don't remember, I -- I 11 can't recall. 12 Q: All right. So you witnessed the 13 flares being thrown at the police officers? 14 A: Yeah, I -- I would say, yeah. 15 Q: And can you describe what flares were 16 being thrown at the police? 17 A: Again, they -- they were a type of 18 flare, they weren't an actual flare. I guess they were - 19 - they were -- it was a -- an -- an object to simulate a 20 -- a flare -- a strobe light. 21 Q: Okay. I -- and I just want to be 22 clear, are we talking about the strobe lights that you 23 gave to your son or is this a different object? 24 A: Well, I gave them -- them to -- gave 25 them strobe lights.
441 Q: Okay. And were they lit when they 2 were thrown? 3 A: Yeah, I would say. I remember one (1) 4 -- one (1) police stepping on one (1). 5 Q: Did any hit any police officers to 6 your knowledge? 7 A: Not that I seen, no. 8 Q: All right. And do you know how many, 9 approximately, were thrown? 10 A: No, I -- I know of -- of one (1) for 11 sure and that's the one that one (1) of the police 12 officers were -- were stepping on. They -- he did step 13 when he walked over there to try and put it out. 14 Q: All right. And was he successful? 15 A: I think so, yes. 16 Q: Do you know who threw that particular 17 flare? 18 A: To be honestly -- to be honest, I -- I 19 didn't see who threw it. I could only speculate that -- 20 that it was my boy. 21 Q: Well, I'll ask you not to speculate. 22 I -- It's very important that we know what you saw or 23 what you heard. Is that fair enough? 24 A: No. No, I didn't see the actual 25 thrower, no.
451 Q: Fair enough. Thank you. Now, during 2 the one and a half (1 1/2) hours to two (2) hours that 3 you were in the Park that night, on Monday night, did you 4 see anybody with any type of guns, firearms, pellet guns, 5 anything of that nature? 6 A: No. No. 7 Q: Did you see anyone bring any such guns 8 into the Park that evening? 9 A: No, I've -- I've never seen a gun in 10 there. 11 Q: Are you -- were you aware of any 12 discussions surrounding the possibility of bringing guns 13 into the Park that night? 14 A: Well, I -- I don't know if it was 15 that night, but I -- I know for sure Monday and -- and 16 Tuesday that it was -- it was to be common knowledge that 17 there was to be no alcohol or no firearms whatsoever in 18 the Park. 19 Q: And why was that? 20 A: Well, again it was understood it was 21 to be common knowledge that it was to be a peaceful 22 demonstration. 23 Q: Do you recall being part of any 24 explicit discussions about that? 25 A: No I -- it was -- it was pretty much
461 where the most person -- it wasn't just one (1), or two 2 (2) or three (3) individuals going around telling 3 everybody that, it was a kind of a word of mouth thing. 4 Q: All right. And you said also, you 5 talked about alcohol, did you see any alcohol being 6 consumed in the Park that night? 7 A: No I didn't. 8 Q: And were you able, based on your 9 observation, your personal observation of the 10 individuals, did any appear to you to be under the 11 influence of alcohol that night at the Park? 12 A: At that time, yes. 13 Q: Who? 14 A: Roderick, my brother. 15 Q: Okay. Anyone else? 16 A: Not to my knowledge, no. 17 Q: To your knowledge, were any knives 18 brought into the Park that night? 19 A: I -- I didn't see any and anybody 20 carrying anything like that. 21 Q: During the time that you were in the 22 Park that night, did you hear any gunshots being fired? 23 A: No, I didn't. 24 Q: Did you hear anything that -- similar 25 -- is similar, or was similar to gunshots?
471 A: Not that I recall, no. 2 Q: Now I think you said that you stayed 3 at the Park for an hour and a half (1 1/2) to two (2) 4 hours and then you drove your father home to Kettle 5 Point? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: Did anything else of significance 8 happen during the time period that you were at the Park 9 that night which you saw? 10 A: Not really, other then -- other than 11 the police really didn't do nothing. I guess I -- I 12 really don't know what they were for and they didn't do 13 anything. They didn't attempt to serve anybody papers or 14 -- or arresting anybody. 15 Q: Are you saying that you didn't seem 16 them attempt to arrest anyone or to serve any papers? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. Now did your group recognize 19 any one or more persons within your group to be the 20 leaders or spokespersons for your group? 21 A: Well I -- I never -- no, there was no 22 leaders, there was no -- no set one person there. There 23 wasn't even a spokesperson. 24 Q: And was that something -- was that a 25 conscious decision on your group to your knowledge?
481 A: Well, I think it's common knowledge 2 amongst Native peoples that leaders in situations like 3 that are always picked out, always picked upon. 4 Q: Was that part of your motivation for 5 not having a leader? 6 A: Well I'm not too sure. I -- I really 7 don't know. 8 Q: All right. Were there any -- when 9 you left the Park, did you encounter any police officers? 10 A: No that I recall, no. 11 Q: And what route did you take out of 12 the Park to get back to the Kettle Point Reserve? 13 A: Along the road inside the Army Camp 14 that runs -- runs right along side of it towards the main 15 gate. 16 Q: And is this the road that was 17 immediately parallel to the Army Camp Road? 18 A: Runs in a north/south direction, yes. 19 Q: Okay. And you can see the Army Camp 20 Road from it -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- and it goes up to the main gate? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And then did you exit the main 25 gate and go out along Highway 21?
491 A: Yes. 2 Q: Did you see any unusual police 3 presence on your way back to the Kettle Point Reserve? 4 A: I -- I can't remember if -- if they 5 had that checkpoint set up there yet or not. They -- 6 they had a -- I know Monday, when I returned, they had a 7 checkpoint set up there. 8 Q: All right. So you can't recall about 9 Monday night but by Tuesday there was a checkpoint at 10 Highway 21 and Army Camp Road approximately? 11 A: Well, it was more towards the 12 gatehouse off of 21. 13 Q: Okay. Just south -- I'm sorry, just 14 north of Highway 21? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, when you entered the Park that 17 evening, can you describe what your feelings were on 18 entering the Park and realizing that individuals had -- 19 had entered to occupy that Park? 20 A: Other than really a bit anxious to 21 see what was going on, I -- I guess that would be about 22 it. 23 Q: All right. And what was your 24 feelings when the police actually left the Park after the 25 incident with your brother?
501 A: I -- I really didn't think about it. 2 I -- I can't answer that. 3 Q: All right. Were you aware of any 4 measures taken by the occupants to, if you will, to 5 secure the Park or to, you know, to -- to keep people out 6 of the Park who weren't wanted? 7 A: At -- at that time, well, I don't 8 think so, no. 9 Q: All right. And so I take it that you 10 didn't play any role in that respect and you didn't 11 observe anything in that respect? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. Did you spend the night 14 at your father's house then, in the normal course, that 15 night? 16 A: In Kettle Point -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- yes. 19 Q: All right. And did you return to the 20 Park the next day at any time? 21 A: Yes, I did, Monday afternoon. 22 Q: That -- that would be -- 23 A: Oh yeah. Tuesday afternoon. 24 Q: That's okay. Tuesday afternoon you 25 mean?
511 A: Yes. 2 Q: That would be September the 5th? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Now, do you recall 5 approximately at what time you entered the Park on 6 Tuesday? 7 A: It would be about 4:00. 8 Q: All right. At 4:00 in the afternoon? 9 A: Yeah. Yes. Because I took half 10 (1/2) day off of work that day. 11 Q: I take it from that comment then that 12 you went to -- to work that morning? 13 A: Tuesday morning, yes. 14 Q: Okay. And did you -- did you drive 15 your car to the Park? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: I should ask you, what kind of car 18 did you drive at that time? 19 A: Actually, that -- that time on that 20 arrival of that Tuesday, I -- I think might be a little 21 bit wrong; I'm not too sure. I think it was Wednesday 22 when I showed up at 4:00. Tuesday would be -- I think 23 might have been later that -- that day, Tuesday. 24 Q: Okay. Let me ask you this, just -- 25 on -- where were you working?
521 A: Kettle Point. 2 Q: On the Reserve, as a carpenter? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you have a -- a job at that 5 time then, on Tuesday? 6 A: Pardon? 7 Q: Did you have a job on Tuesday that 8 you went to? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And so what time do you think 11 you arrived at the Park on Tuesday? 12 A: It's -- it's unclear -- it would have 13 to be -- I would say late -- late Tuesday. 14 Q: Do you think it was -- in relation to 15 your dinner time, was it -- do you recall where you had 16 dinner that night? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: Do you know if it was after or before 19 dinner that you went to the Park? Or for dinner? 20 A: I -- I -- one (1) of those days, I 21 think it would be -- would -- might have been early 22 evening -- early evening. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Late afternoon. 25 Q: Early evening/late afternoon after you
531 finished your -- your day of work? 2 A: Pardon? 3 Q: After you finished your work? 4 A: I -- I imagine so, yeah. 5 Q: Okay. And again, did you -- did you 6 drive to the Park from Kettle Point? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: What was -- what type of car did you 9 drive at that time? 10 A: I had -- I -- I think it was a '83 11 Camaro. 12 Q: What colour was it? 13 A: White. 14 Q: And a Camaro, is -- is that a small 15 car? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And did you come along 18 Highway 21 again? 19 A: Yeah, through the main gate towards -- 20 south up Army Camp Road. 21 Q: And did you again take the road that's 22 parallel to Army Camp Road north to the Park? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Now, did you observe any 25 police presence while you were driving your car from
541 Kettle Point to the Park? 2 A: Yeah, they had -- they had their 3 checkpoint set up that time between -- in between the -- 4 the gatehouse and 21. 5 Q: All right. Just to be clear, the 6 gatehouse is the gatehouse at the barracks, the built-up 7 area? 8 A: Yeah, yes. 9 Q: All right. Did you have to -- did you 10 go through the checkpoint? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: Were you stopped? 13 A: Yes, I was. 14 Q: All right. Can you tell me what -- 15 what occurred when you were stopped? 16 A: He just -- I think they just asked me 17 where I was going and they -- they just had a quick look 18 on the floors and they didn't have to ask me to open up 19 the trunk or anything because the back window on that 20 Camaro was -- is -- is -- is a big window. You could see 21 right -- right in the -- 22 Q: Is it a hatchback? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I think they were -- I think they
551 asked me what -- what I was going there for. I think I 2 just told them I was going visiting. 3 Q: Did you tell the police that you were 4 going into the Park? 5 A: I -- I don't think so. 6 Q: What did you tell them? Where did you 7 tell them you were going? 8 A: I -- I don't recall. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I -- I might have told them that I'm 11 just going visiting. I -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I can't remember -- 14 Q: But, in any event, they let you go 15 into the Army Camp? 16 A: Oh, yeah. They -- they weren't -- 17 they -- I don't think they were turning anybody away that 18 was going through. They just wanted to, you know, have a 19 quick look in the cars, I guess, or -- well, I can't 20 remember if they asked -- asked our names or not. 21 I can't remember that. I -- I think they 22 were trying to get names of people that were entering the 23 Camp at the time. 24 Q: Did you have licence -- visible 25 licence plates on your car?
561 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: Did -- did you show them your licence? 3 A: I -- I can't remember. 4 Q: Okay. All right. And how many police 5 officers were involved in -- at this police check? 6 A: Well, I know there was one (1) for 7 sure. I -- I -- I can't remember if there was two (2) or 8 not. I know there was the one (1), for sure. 9 Q: All right. And the -- was -- was Army 10 Camp Road blocked in any way? 11 A: Not -- not at that -- not that I could 12 recall, no. 13 Q: Okay, so where was -- where was the 14 check, actually? Was it outside of the -- the gatehouse? 15 A: Yeah, it was right on Army Camp Road. 16 Q: Okay. Now, when you arrived at the 17 Park then, approximately how many people were there that 18 you could see? 19 A: Rough guess, fifteen (15), twenty 20 (20), twenty-five (25) -- around -- around there. 21 Q: All right. And again what -- what 22 was the composition of the people there? 23 A: I -- I can't remember if there was 24 any elderly people but again, there was -- there was kids 25 and up to maybe forty (40) year old people, middle-age
571 like that. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. And were there any women 3 and men there? 4 A: Yeah there was women and men, kids. 5 Q: And can you describe the, you know, 6 what your impression of the atmosphere at the Park was 7 when you arrived that evening? 8 A: I -- I guess it was basically -- 9 basically relaxed if I remember correctly. 10 Q: How long did you stay that night? 11 A: In the Park I -- I don't know but in 12 the Army Camp all night. 13 Q: Okay. Did you -- where did you sleep 14 that night? 15 A: In my father's trailer. It's 16 situated along 21 over by where Dudley had his trailer 17 along 21 there. 18 Q: So this is actually within the Camp 19 Ipperwash land? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: And it's -- it's where the others had 22 their trailers? Where Dudley George had his trailer? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Vella,
581 would this be a good point to have a break? 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 4 be? 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, it would, yes, 6 thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 8 fifteen (15) minute break. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Certainly. 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 11 for fifteen (15) minutes. 12 13 --- Upon recessing at 11:19 a.m. 14 --- Upon resuming at 11:35 a.m. 15 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry has now 17 resumed, please be seated. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 19 Vella...? 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Mr. George, just to clear up 23 something. When you went through the police check, what 24 road did you take to go down to the Park? 25 A: Again, I took the road that runs
591 along side of Army Camp Road north to south. 2 Q: And it directly parallels that road 3 on the inside of the Park? I mean of the Camp? 4 A: Pardon? 5 Q: It's inside the Camp? 6 A: Yes, it is. 7 Q: Okay. And did you enter the Park 8 through -- through a gate on Matheson Drive? How did -- 9 which -- which entrance did you use to come in? 10 A: This is a good one. Oh, I can't 11 really remember for sure I know is that -- MNR at that 12 time or -- or if it was actually the -- the gate that was 13 on Matheson Drive toward the beach I -- I'm kind of 14 unsure about that now. I -- I believe it was -- was the 15 road that the MNR building was on if I could recall 16 right. 17 Q: You're talking about the maintenance 18 shed? 19 A: Yeah, the maintenance shed. 20 Q: In any event, did you have to cross 21 Matheson Drive to get into the Park or was there another 22 way to do it? 23 A: That -- that's where I was confused 24 because I -- I do remember travelling along that -- 25 through that road at some time and point but when -- when
601 we started using that road, I -- I can't remember. 2 Q: All right. And when you say that 3 road, are you talking about the road that entered the 4 Park from the east side that parallelled Outer Drive? Is 5 that what you're talking about when you say "that road"? 6 A: Well, it would be the gate that would 7 be towards the east of the Park. It -- it might have 8 been that road; I -- I'm not too sure. 9 Q: Okay. All right. In any event, is 10 it fair to say that you entered the Park from within 11 the -- 12 A: Army Camp -- 13 Q: -- Camp Ipperwash? Yeah. 14 A: Yes. I -- I went through the camp to 15 get into the Park. 16 Q: Okay. Thank you. Did you observe 17 any further police presence once you entered the Park on 18 Tuesday evening? 19 A: Well, again, I -- I knew they were 20 there because of the checkpoint. But I -- I knew they 21 were in the vicinity of the Park because they were 22 travelling -- travelling along Army Camp Road and East 23 Way Parkway all -- all throughout that afternoon and 24 evening since I was there. 25 Q: All right. When you say they were
611 travelling along Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive, 2 you -- you mean in a cruiser? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you saw that? 5 A: Whether -- whether or not it was the 6 same -- same cruiser or -- or different cruisers, yes. 7 Q: Sure. But a -- OPP cruisers you saw? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. Did you see any other forms of 10 -- or any forms of police surveillance that evening, 11 aside from the patrols and the cruisers? 12 A: On -- on that Tuesday, I seen a -- a 13 red helicopter flying above the vicinity of the west side 14 of the Park. 15 Q: Okay. Were you able to see the 16 colour of the helicopter? 17 A: It was red. 18 Q: And how could you see that? In the 19 sense of -- we're talking the evening, are we, or -- 20 A: Oh, it was -- it was daylight then. 21 Q: Okay. All right. And did you 22 witness any -- any particular incidents involving the 23 helicopter that evening? 24 A: Not -- nothing really out of the 25 ordinary other than that it was -- it was flying fairly
621 low. 2 Q: Did you see any -- any of the Park 3 occupants throw any objects at the helicopter that 4 evening? 5 A: Myself personally, no. 6 Q: And approximately -- did you notice 7 how long it flew over the west end of the Park? 8 A: It -- it was there a while. It -- it 9 was hovering around a little while. 10 Q: Okay. Did you -- did you witness any 11 fireworks or firecrackers being set off that night? 12 A: No, I didn't. 13 Q: Okay. Did -- 14 A: Not that -- that I recall. 15 Q: Did you hear any? 16 A: No, I didn't. I -- I'd like to point 17 out that at that -- at this time I -- I'd be travelling 18 at different times in and out the Park. I -- I never 19 remained in the Park that evening all -- all the way from 20 when I entered until I left that day. 21 Q: All right. Did you stay within the 22 confines or the parameters of the Army Camp and Park that 23 whole evening? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: And for what reasons were you
631 travelling back and forth between the Park and the -- the 2 camp? 3 A: I guess simply -- simply for a change 4 of scenery, I guess. 5 Q: Were you transporting anything back 6 and forth between the camp and the Park that evening? 7 A: No, I wasn't. 8 Q: How were you -- what was your mode of 9 -- of transportation when you were going back and forth? 10 A: Again -- again, it was my white -- my 11 white Camaro. 12 Q: Okay. And approximately how long 13 would it take you to drive from the Park to the camp? 14 A: Well, that would depend on how -- 15 Q: How fast you were going? 16 A: -- aggressive you were driving, I 17 guess. 18 Q: Fair enough. Okay. Do -- do you know 19 approximately how -- how long a distance that is? 20 A: A mile and a half. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Two (2)? 23 Q: Now, Mr. George, why -- what was your 24 motivation for going into the Park in the first place? 25 A: On that Tuesday or...?
641 Q: On -- on the Monday and Tuesday. 2 A: Well, a lot of it is -- I guess some 3 of it is to do with protection of the burial sites. Some 4 of it would be to simply take my father there. 5 Q: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. 6 A: Some -- some of it would be simply to 7 -- to take my father there so he -- he'd be present. 8 Some of it would be -- I -- I guess it -- 9 it would be a way of getting attention to land issues, to 10 attention, I guess. 11 Q: All right. And did you observe any -- 12 any media in or around the Park on the -- on the Monday 13 and Tuesday that -- when you were there? 14 A: Myself? No. 15 Q: Okay. Now, you told me about the 16 helicopter and you told me about the police patrols. 17 Were there any other forms of surveillance 18 that you were aware of? 19 A: Well, again, I -- I don't know what -- 20 what time it was, but there was some -- some police 21 officers. Again, I -- I don't know how much, but they 22 were -- they were on the west side of Camp Ipperwash out 23 in the sandy Parking lot, I -- I'd say instigating -- 24 trying to entice us to -- to exit the Park over the 25 fence.
651 Q: Now, was this Tuesday night? 2 A: I believe so. 3 Q: Okay. All right. And you said they 4 were by the sandy Parking lot; I thought you said outside 5 the Camp. Did you mean Camp? 6 A: Well, the -- the Park. 7 Q: The Park? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And -- and when you say the 10 sandy Parking lot, are we talking about the area just 11 north of the intersection of Army Camp Road and -- and 12 East Parkway Drive? 13 A: Yes, they were -- 14 Q: Okay. And you're pointing on the 15 diagram entitled, "Elwood George of the Intersection" 16 just north of the -- the intersection of Army Camp Road 17 and East Parkway. Okay. Now, you were present at this 18 event? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And, can you tell me very carefully 21 from the -- the first observation you had of the police 22 officers what occurred? 23 A: Of -- of what I could remember, I -- I 24 guess there was a fair exchange of -- of words, probably 25 none of it negative -- or none of it positive, but --
661 Q: From whom? 2 A: From both sides, that we were 3 hollering at them that -- that this was our land and -- 4 and one (1) of those officers, he took off his vest or 5 was taking off his vest or -- or something and he had his 6 baton and he got down on his one (1) knee and he struck 7 his baton -- one (1) end of baton, into -- into the sand 8 and then he said, welcome to Canada. 9 Q: And how did you react to that? 10 A: I -- I didn't, I guess. 11 Q: All right. Did you -- all right. 12 Where were you when this event occurred? 13 A: I would have -- I would have -- I 14 imagine I would have had to have been around the fence 15 area at that time because I -- I seen him go down on the 16 one knee and strike the one end of his baton into the 17 sand. 18 But I do remember I think it was Marlin, I 19 think it was Marlin Simon that did throw some sand in one 20 of their faces. 21 Q: In the police, I'm sorry. 22 A: Pardon? 23 Q: In what -- what part of the police 24 did he throw sand? 25 A: In his -- in one of their faces.
671 Q: In one of their faces, okay. And 2 were you inside or outside of the Park; like, what side 3 of the fence were you on? 4 A: Well we were -- we were on the inside 5 of the Park. 6 Q: Okay. And you've indicated that 7 Marlin Simon was there. Can you recall who else was 8 there? 9 A: No, I -- no, I can't. 10 Q: All right. Do you know whether or 11 not Dudley George was present? 12 A: I -- I think Dudley George never left 13 in all of those three (3) days. 14 Q: But you don't recall one way or the 15 other? 16 A: No. No. 17 Q: All right. Was there more than two 18 (2) of you during this incident? 19 A: That I -- I can't really remember. 20 Like I don't know how much police officers. I can't 21 recall how much police officers were out -- outside of 22 the gate at that time either. 23 Q: All right. Is it -- is it possible 24 that this event that you're speaking of occurred on 25 Wednesday?
681 A: Yeah, it's possible and that by -- 2 that was one of the things that -- that I really couldn't 3 put into perspective is of which day, Tuesday or 4 Wednesday that that did happen. So I'm assuming that 5 that did happen on -- on that Tuesday. 6 Q: Okay. Would -- would it assist you 7 to refresh your memory if you reviewed your transcripts 8 of your evidence given at one of the trials that you 9 testified in? 10 A: It -- it might. 11 Q: Commissioner, if I could just have a 12 second. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Do you recall giving evidence in the 17 matter of R. versus Nicholas Abraham Cottrelle? 18 A: I -- I remember I did testify on his 19 behalf in court, yes. 20 Q: All right. Would you please open 21 your binder and have a look at your examination-in-chief. 22 A: That would be by Mr. Scott, would it? 23 Q: Just for the record, this is found on 24 CD Rom Volume 19 and it's the evidence of Elwood Tracy 25 George. If you look at page 36 of the transcript. I'll
691 just make sure that the witness has it. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: I just advised the Witness that he 6 should start reading at Page 33 of the transcript. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Again, it doesn't say in -- in my 11 statement how much -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- police officers were there. 14 Q: Let -- let me just ask you the 15 question, does the transcript you with refreshing your 16 memory in relation to whether this event occurred on 17 Tuesday, September the 5th or Wednesday, September the 18 6th? 19 A: Well, I -- I -- I take it it's -- it's 20 a Tuesday. I -- 21 Q: Okay. Mr. George, did that -- did 22 that assist you in refreshing your memory or not? 23 A: I -- I -- I would say it was a 24 Tuesday. 25 Q: Okay. That -- that's your best
701 recollection? Okay. 2 A: Yeah, I think so. 3 Q: That's -- that's fine. 4 A: But again I think I said it, it's a 5 matter of me putting some of these things into 6 perspective. There -- there was a few things I -- I know 7 about that. I -- I am really unclear of -- of which date 8 it did happen, but it did happen. 9 Q: Okay. You recall that it did happen 10 and you're unclear as to the date? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay, that's fine. Thank you. 13 Sometimes these things help and sometimes they don't. 14 A: Yes, they do. 15 Q: Okay. Let me ask you this then. 16 During the course of Tuesday evening, did any incidents 17 occur involving picnic tables at which you were present? 18 A: Yes. Again, I -- I -- I can't 19 remember who all was there that was -- was moving the 20 picnic tables out to the sandy Parking lot. I -- I 21 believe we -- we did have a fire at that time. I -- I -- 22 if I -- if I do remember correctly. 23 Q: All right. So this is at the sandy 24 Parking lot? 25 A: Yes.
711 Q: Just north of the intersection of Army 2 Camp Road and East Parkway Drive? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And do you know approximately how may 5 picnic tables were taken out into that area? 6 A: No, I -- I don't recall. I -- I know 7 there was at least two (2) out there for sure. I -- I 8 don't know the exact number. 9 Q: All right. And do you know what the 10 purpose was of taking the picnic tables out into the 11 sandy Parking lot? 12 A: Not -- not really. I -- I think we 13 were just going to sit around the fire. 14 Q: Was there a fire there? 15 A: I -- I think so, yes. 16 Q: All right. And do you recall whether 17 anything of significance occurred after you put the 18 picnic tables out in the sandy Parking lot? 19 A: Well, other than the -- the one I seen 20 my brother and -- and my nephew, Nicholas Cottrelle, they 21 -- they were carrying, a cruiser come up and -- and 22 rammed that while they were carrying it. 23 Q: Which brother? 24 A: Stewart. 25 Q: Stewart?
721 A: George. 2 Q: All right. Stewart and Nicholas were 3 carrying a picnic table where? 4 A: Out in the sandy Parking lot. 5 Q: All right. And then describe what you 6 saw next. 7 A: Pertaining to us and -- and the 8 police? I - I really can't remember. That's -- was one 9 (1) -- one (1) of the only significant things I -- I 10 could really remember was the ramming of that -- that 11 picnic table at that time. 12 Q: All right. Well, perhaps you can 13 describe what you saw when you saw the ramming of the 14 picnic table. 15 A: Well, basically the -- the cruiser 16 just come up and rammed the table while they were 17 carrying it. 18 Q: All right. And what happened then? 19 A: I -- I don't remember. I -- I think 20 we went back into the Park. I'm not too sure. 21 Q: All right. Do you recall how many 22 police cruisers were present at that time? 23 A: A that time? I -- I -- I didn't -- I 24 didn't make no observations of how much there was -- all 25 that I know is -- is that there was that one (1) -- I --
731 I don't even know how much officers were inside of it. 2 Q: Okay. Where were you standing or 3 positioned when this event occurred, relative to -- 4 A: I -- 5 Q: -- to the picnic table? 6 A: I -- I believe I might have still been 7 inside the gate at that time on the other side of the 8 fence line. 9 Q: Okay. Did you observe whether or not 10 any -- or where -- Let me ask you this: Did you observe 11 what happened to the picnic table after it was hit by the 12 cruiser? 13 A: I think we just left them there. I -- 14 I -- again, I am -- I am unclear about that. 15 Q: All right. Let me ask you this, what 16 was the lighting conditions in that immediate area when 17 this event occurred; was it dark or light out or -- 18 A: I -- I -- I don't -- I don't think it 19 was dark out at that time. 20 Q: All right. Is that all that you can 21 remember about this incident? 22 A: Yeah, basically, yeah, just the fact 23 that I could remember, myself, is -- is just the ramming 24 of -- of the picnic tables because I guess any -- 25 everything else was in -- insignificant at that time.
741 Q: All right. Did you, at any time on 2 Tuesday, September the 5th, see any guns or firearms in 3 the Park? 4 A: Again, I -- I never -- didn't see any 5 firearms of any sort in the Park. 6 Q: Where were your guns at this time? 7 A: My guns were in Kettle Point. 8 Q: Where in Kettle Point? 9 A: At my father's house. 10 Q: All right. Did you hear any gunshots 11 in or -- and around the Park that evening? 12 A: No, I did not. 13 Q: Did you hear any sounds similar to 14 gunshots in the Park that evening? 15 A: Not that I recall. But, again -- 16 again, we -- I was in and out of the Park. So if -- if 17 there was, it could have been when -- when I was outside 18 of the Park. 19 Q: I'm only asking you for what you 20 heard, obviously, when -- 21 A: No, I did not. 22 Q: -- you were there? 23 A: I did not. 24 Q: Okay. Now, there may be evidence at 25 this Inquiry that sounds like gunshots or which may have
751 been gunshots were heard in and around the Park on Monday 2 and/or Tuesday. If that evidence were to come forward, 3 would that evidence cause you to change your evidence 4 today? 5 A: No, I -- I don't think so. I -- I 6 don't believe I had heard anything that resembled 7 gunshots. 8 Q: All right. Did you observe any -- 9 anyone consuming alcohol in the Park that evening? 10 A: Tuesday? 11 Q: Tuesday evening? 12 A: No, I did not. 13 Q: Did you observe anyone who appeared 14 to be intoxicated in the Park on that evening? 15 A: No, not -- not that I recall. Again, 16 it was stipulated that there was to be no -- no alcohol. 17 Q: All right. And were you intoxicated 18 that evening? 19 A: No, I wasn't. 20 Q: Did you witness any efforts by the 21 police to enter into negotiations with anyone from the 22 occupants? 23 A: Never. 24 Q: Did you witness anyone from the 25 occupants attempt to negotiate with the police?
761 A: No, I didn't. 2 Q: Was there any discussions that you 3 were part of in which reference was made to the 4 possibility of engaging in negotiations with the police 5 or with the authorities during the course of the 6 occupation of the Park? 7 A: Not that I'm aware of, no. 8 Q: Did you witness any direct 9 interactions between any member of the Ontario Provincial 10 Police and Dudley George on Tuesday? 11 A: Myself, no. 12 Q: I think you indicated earlier that 13 you returned to the Army Camp and slept in your father's 14 trailer that evening? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And, once again, what -- did you 17 choose an internal route to get back to the camp? Did 18 you -- 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: There's -- there's something too I -- 22 I was saying, I kind of lost some things and -- because I 23 couldn't put them into perspective. I don't know if it 24 was that Tuesday night or that Monday night that there 25 was -- there was a -- one (1) person that was outside in
771 the sandy Parking lot along the road, that I don't know 2 who or -- or what they were trying to do, but they ran up 3 from the -- from the beach. 4 They ran in a northern direction towards 5 East Parkway Drive and -- and they were yelling out, You 6 wahoos, you -- excuse my language again -- you fucking 7 Indians. And they ran down towards East Parkway. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: But I don't know, I can't put that in 10 perspective whether that was Monday or Tuesday night. 11 Q: Okay. And you can identify who the 12 person was? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And did you react at all when that 15 incident happened? 16 A: No. I just blew it off. I just let 17 it go. 18 Q: Okay. Now, once you were back at the 19 Army Camp and in your father's trailer, did you at that 20 point hear anything that sounded like or was similar to 21 gunshots? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did you return to the Park at any 24 time that evening or early morning? 25 A: No I didn't.
781 Q: All right. Where did you go after 2 you work up the next morning on Wednesday, September the 3 6th? 4 A: I went to work for half a day. 5 Q: And where was that that you went to 6 work? 7 A: On Kettle Point. 8 Q: All right. And when you exited the 9 Army Camp, did you go through a police check? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: Okay. Just tell me what -- what 12 routine you went through to go through the police check? 13 A: Well I -- I can't remember if -- if 14 they actually stopped us to check the car out being as -- 15 that we were exiting. But there was a police checkpoint 16 there at that time. 17 Q: And you -- did you have to go through 18 it in order to exit the Army Camp? 19 A: Well I don't know about through it, 20 but around it -- the previous day that I had to go 21 through because I was going in and they were -- they were 22 checking the cars that were going in. So I -- I can't 23 really remember -- I think they did stop me because they 24 -- I remember telling them that I slept in my father's 25 trailer.
791 Q: Okay. 2 A: So yeah, they did stop. 3 Q: All right. Do you recall whether or 4 not they looked at -- in your car? 5 A: I -- I can't recall again. 6 Q: All right. Did they -- all right, 7 that's fine. Did you go then straight to Kettle Point to 8 work? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And as you travelled back along 11 Highway 21, did you notice any additional police 12 presence? 13 A: At that time I don't think so. 14 Q: All right. And did you -- how long 15 did you stay at work? 16 A: I worked for half a day. 17 Q: Did you return to the Park at any 18 time on Wednesday, September the 6th? 19 A: Yes. I -- I returned back there at 20 about four o'clock. 21 Q: Can you tell me the route by which 22 you returned to the Park from Kettle Point? 23 A: Same as the previous day. 24 Q: All right. So along Highway 21? 25 A: Yeah.
801 Q: And did you go through a police check 2 again at the -- at the main gate? 3 A: Before I entered the main gate, yes. 4 Q: And then the internal road that 5 parallels Army Camp Road? 6 A: Yes. Same -- same road, yes. 7 Q: Okay. During the course of this 8 police check again, did -- were you asked any questions 9 by the police? 10 A: Again, I -- I can't really remember. 11 Just being basically where I was going again. 12 Q: All right. Did they attempt to 13 dissuade you from proceeding? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did you have anyone else in the car? 16 A: Again, my girlfriend Sherry Lynn 17 Bressette. 18 Q: Did you have any guns in the car? 19 A: None. 20 Q: Did you have any weapons in the car? 21 A: None. 22 Q: Did you have any alcohol in the car? 23 A: No. 24 Q: What about gas tanks or gas cans? 25 A: Just what was in the vehicle. No.
811 Q: You mean you had gas in your car 2 tank? 3 A: In the vehicle. In the car tank, 4 yes. 5 Q: Okay. That's fair. And once you 6 entered the Park, where did you go? 7 A: We went over towards the vicinity of 8 the store. 9 Q: All right. And were there other 10 people in the Park? 11 A: Yes there was. 12 Q: Approximately how many did you see? 13 A: Not -- not more than twenty (20). I 14 think that would be fairly accurate. 15 Q: Now at this time were there any 16 children in the Park? 17 A: Yes. There was, again that was -- 18 again, I can't remember if there were elderly people but 19 -- but there was women and children and -- and men. 20 Q: Was your son in the Park? 21 A: I believe so, yes. 22 Q: Can you tell me what activities you 23 observed that the occupants were doing in the Park? 24 A: Just wandering -- wandering around 25 through the Park. There were some who wandered. Some
821 were sitting, you know, talking. 2 Q: Did you see anybody in the Park with 3 mirrors? 4 A: Yes, I did. The kids were -- were 5 shining them in -- in -- in the eyes of the police. 6 Well, whether they were riding by or -- or whatever, 7 whenever they could see them, they were reflecting the 8 sunlight in their eyes. 9 Q: In the eyes of the police officers? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: What kind of mirrors were they using? 12 How big were they? 13 A: I -- I can't remember if they were 14 broken parts of a -- a bigger mirror or -- or a car 15 mirror or something. I don't know. 16 Q: Did you recognize any of the children 17 that were -- were doing this? 18 A: I -- I think they were my -- my 19 nieces and -- I think they were my nieces, Roderick 20 George's girls. 21 Q: I'm sorry. Whose? 22 A: Roderick George. 23 Q: Roderick George's girls? 24 A: Roderick, yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And did you observe any police
831 presence or activities around the Park? You told us 2 about the checkpoint. 3 A: Other than the checkpoint? At -- at 4 what time do you want? 5 Q: That's a very good point. Prior to - 6 - prior to the evening. So, say, four -- 4:00 to 8:00 7 vicinity? 8 A: Well, it appeared -- it was 9 noticeable that there was getting to be more and more 10 police in the area, just -- just simply because of the -- 11 the increase of police cruisers that was sitting along 12 Army Camp Road and travelling on East Parkway. 13 Q: All right. So increased patrols? 14 A: Well, they -- it was obvious that -- 15 that the police presence was getting more -- more 16 noticeable, more -- more frequent, I guess, in numbers 17 and -- visually, I guess. 18 Q: All right. Now, were the -- between 19 -- let's restrict this between 4:00 and eight o'clock. 20 Was there any of -- of the occupants who were outside of 21 the parameters of the Park or Army Camp? 22 A: At which time do -- 23 Q: Again, between 4:00 and 8:00? 24 A: Between 4:00 and 8:00, on Tuesday? 25 Q: Wednesday.
841 A: On Wednesday. I -- I would imagine 2 so. I -- 3 Q: I -- I just want you to talk about 4 what you remember seeing. Okay? 5 A: Well, I can't recall. 6 Q: All right. Did you notice whether or 7 not there was any helicopter activity on Wednesday, when 8 you were in the Park? 9 A: I -- I don't think when I -- when I 10 was in the Park. 11 Q: All right. Did you see any -- any 12 form of police surveillance aside from the cruisers 13 driving by? 14 A: Yes, there was a -- a small ship or - 15 - or a very large boat in -- quite a ways out on the 16 lake. 17 Q: Okay. And what led you to believe 18 that that was part of police surveillance? 19 A: Well, it was -- it was there, in one 20 (1) spot, for a very long period of time. 21 Q: All right. Had you noticed this boat 22 before Wednesday? 23 A: I -- I can't recall. I don't think I 24 noticed it Tuesday. I believe it was Wednesday when -- 25 when I did notice it out there.
851 Q: Okay. Now did you see any fireworks 2 being lit on Wednesday in the Park? 3 A: No, not that I recall. 4 Q: How about the strobe lights that you 5 talked about earlier? 6 A: Not on Wednesday that I recall. 7 Q: Did you see any lit flares? 8 A: Not on Wednesday that I recall, no. 9 Q: Did you observe any of the Park 10 occupants throwing rocks at the police cruisers as they 11 passed by? 12 A: Yes I believe -- I believe there was 13 -- there was a lot of rocks thrown ever since the police 14 had rammed the picnic tables. It -- it escalated, the 15 rock throwing, did escalate a lot more after the ramming 16 of the picnic tables. 17 Q: And did you participate in any of the 18 rock throwing? 19 A: No. 20 Q: I think I -- from your earlier 21 testimony was Dudley George present in the Park on 22 Wednesday? 23 A: Yes, he was. 24 Q: Did you see any direct interactions 25 between any member of the Ontario Provincial Police and
861 Dudley George prior to eight o'clock that night? 2 A: Again, I -- I can't -- I can't 3 recall. 4 Q: Okay. Did you draw any conclusions 5 from when you noticed the increase in police presence or 6 the build up of the police as you have described it 7 between 4:00 and 8:00? 8 A: Pardon? 9 Q: Did you -- did you draw any 10 conclusions? 11 A: Kind of -- kind of sensed something - 12 - something was going to happen because it was a -- it 13 was noticeable, very noticeable increase in -- in their 14 presence. 15 Q: All right. As a result of -- of that 16 feeling, did you do anything or did you see the Park 17 occupants do anything to -- to respond to that? 18 A: Only thing I could remember is -- is 19 I mentioned that we should -- we should drive our 20 vehicles around and this was getting to be dark then, get 21 a little bit movement within the Park I -- I guess to -- 22 to lead the police to believe that there was actually 23 more of us there than -- than there actually was. 24 Q: So you recommended that people bring 25 their cars to the Park?
871 A: No. Simply ride around in and out of 2 the Park around just so that they could be visibly seen 3 going in and out to give the impression that there was 4 more and more people in the Park than there actually was. 5 Q: All right. And -- and why did you 6 think that was a good idea? 7 A: I -- I really don't know. I just 8 thought they would think that there was actually a 9 greater number there, the police would think there would 10 be a greater number -- greater number of us in the Park 11 and it was actually for that simple reason. 12 Q: And based on your observation, did 13 people follow your advice? Did -- was there more vehicle 14 activity? 15 A: Well, I don't know if it was my 16 actual advice, but yes there a increase on -- on traffic 17 with the Park and on our side. 18 Q: And did you -- did you then begin to 19 drive your car back and forth within the Park and back 20 and forth along the Army Camp? 21 A: I believe so, yes. I was in and out 22 half the time anyways. 23 Q: And specifically that night you were 24 in and out of the Park a lot? 25 A: Yeah.
881 Q: Okay. Again though, did you stay 2 within the confines of the Army Camp and the Park that 3 whole time? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: Did you witness an alleged incident 6 involving your brother Stewart and a Band councillor 7 named Gerald George that day? 8 A: Well, to actually have seen it, no, I 9 didn't actually see it. 10 Q: Okay. Prior to the, what I'll call 11 the -- the events later on that evening, the 12 confrontation, prior to that, were you involved in any 13 direct interaction with the police when you were in the 14 Park? 15 A: Not that I recall. But again, there 16 was that little -- little thing that I -- I couldn't 17 really put into perspective of -- of when it happened, 18 either Monday or -- I mean, Tuesday or Wednesday, was 19 that the -- the policeman saying, Welcome to Canada. 20 Other than that, I don't believe so. 21 Q: All right. Yes. You're referring to 22 the stone -- sorry, the sand-throwing incident? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And you're not sure whether that -- 25 which day that was. Aside from that incident, were you
891 involved in any direct interactions with the police prior 2 to the events of later that evening? 3 A: I -- I don't believe so. 4 Q: All right. Now, did you see any guns 5 or firearms in the Park that night? 6 A: Again, I think it was common 7 knowledge that there was to be no guns, no alcohol, and 8 no -- no, I didn't. 9 Q: Okay. Did you observe anyone who 10 appeared to be intoxicated amongst the Park occupants 11 that evening? 12 A: No. No, I didn't. 13 Q: Did -- did any of the occupants, to 14 your knowledge, take any additional measures to protect 15 themselves or to respond to the perceived buildup of 16 police presence which -- which could be used as weapons, 17 for example? 18 A: Well, again, after the ramming of the 19 picnic tables, yes, there was. 20 Q: What -- can you tell me what you saw 21 in that respect? 22 A: I guess gathering the stones, the 23 physical carrying of clubs. 24 Q: Clubs? What kinds of clubs? 25 A: Well, small sticks to large sticks.
901 Q: How about baseball bats? 2 A: I -- I'm not too sure whether they 3 were baseball bats or not. That's unclear to me. But 4 clubs, yes; what they were, I don't know. 5 Q: Did you see any pipes? 6 A: Not that I recall, no. 7 Q: Were the -- where were the stones 8 gathered from? 9 A: On -- on the ground. 10 Q: Were any stones gathered from the 11 Park store at that time? 12 A: I -- I can't remember. I -- I 13 gathered stones up but that wasn't until after Dudley was 14 shot. 15 Q: Okay. Did you observe at any time 16 that evening any -- any containers or tanks filled with 17 gasoline? 18 A: Not that I -- no, I didn't see any. 19 Q: Was the bus in the Park on Wednesday? 20 A: During the day? 21 Q: When you were there, from four 22 o'clock on? 23 A: I -- I believe it was brought down 24 later on that day, if I -- if I do recall, but I -- 25 again, I -- I specifically don't remember when the -- the
911 bus did show up. 2 Q: Okay. But it did show up? 3 A: Yes, it did. 4 Q: And do you know what was on the bus 5 when it showed up, besides the driver? 6 A: No, I -- I never did look in it. 7 Q: Okay. Were there any other vehicles 8 in the Park that night aside from a bus and the cars? 9 A: Well, I -- I can't tell you for sure, 10 but I -- I think Glennie was -- was doing something with 11 a dump truck where he -- he'd pop in once in a while. I 12 -- I don't know how many times. There -- there was 13 something that -- there was a dump truck there at -- at 14 one (1) time or another. 15 Q: And is that Glenn George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. You don't know what the purpose 18 of that dump truck being brought into the Park was? 19 A: I -- I don't know what he was doing. 20 I don't think he was doing anything in the Park, I -- I - 21 - he might have been doing something out -- outside the 22 Park. I'm -- I'm not -- I'm - I'm unclear about that. 23 Q: All right. Were there people from 24 First Nations other than Stoney Point in the Park that 25 night, to your knowledge?
921 A: Yes, there was. 2 Q: Can you tell me which other First 3 Nations -- well, let me -- which other First Nations had 4 people there? I don't mean that they were 5 representations of the Nation, but from other First 6 Nations? 7 A: Well, there -- there was people there 8 from other nations. Again, it wasn't specifically for 9 that occupation, I believe that they were -- they were 10 simply day visitors. One (1) was Robert Isaac, he was -- 11 he was -- he was staying at the Camp. Had some Oneidas 12 there. And I think there was a Walpole and Oneida or may 13 -- maybe -- maybe some Munceys or -- or maybe there was 14 some -- I'm not too sure. 15 Q: All right. And you say that these 16 were visitors? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Were they invited, to your knowledge, 19 to come to the Park? 20 A: Again, I -- I don 't know. Some of 21 these people such as -- as Buck Doxtator, he -- he -- he 22 comes to the Camp quite regularly, you know, he used the 23 beach, you know. It's to my knowledge that -- that he 24 wasn't there specifically for the purpose of occupying, 25 that -- that he was simply a day visitor. I would
931 imagine as is with a lot of the other ones. 2 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether or not 3 Gabriel Doxtator was there? 4 A: Yes, he was. 5 Q: How about Russ Jewel? 6 A: Yes, he was. 7 Q: Was Les Jewel there that night? 8 A: I -- I can't remember if he was living 9 at the Camp at that time or not, but, yeah Les and Russ, 10 his brother -- Russ was -- was there. 11 Q: Now, do you know why Russ Jewel was 12 there? 13 A: Again, I -- I think he was -- he might 14 have been staying at the Camp. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: You -- you get some -- a bit of 17 support, I guess in one (1) way or another and which way 18 that is, I -- I don't know. 19 Q: All right. I'd like to move into the 20 evening of September the 6th, 1995. At some point during 21 this evening, did Cecil Bernard George arrive at the 22 Park? 23 A: Yes, and again, I -- I -- I am 24 unspecific at what time that was. 25 Q: All right. And let me just ask you
941 this question. Do you recall approximately what time it 2 got dark that night? 3 A: A rough guess to my recollection 4 would be roughly maybe, I don't know, 8:30 maybe. 5 Q: Okay. Do you know whether Mr. -- 6 well let me ask you this. Did you -- did you see his 7 actual arrival? 8 A: No, I didn't see his actual arrival. 9 I -- I didn't see him until he was actually in the Park. 10 Q: Okay. You saw him after he arrived? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And when you first saw him, can you 13 tell me whether it was dark yet? 14 A: I believe so. 15 Q: Okay. Now was this the first time 16 that Cecil Bernard George had come into the Park during 17 that three (3) day occupation, to your knowledge? 18 A: To my knowledge I -- I really can't 19 say. 20 Q: Had you seen before? 21 A: No I didn't. 22 Q: Do you know why he came? 23 A: I don't know whether it was to 24 support or what it was but he did bring a set of walkie 25 talkies and he did instruct us how to use them, how to
951 turn them on, how to -- to set channels. 2 Q: All right. And did you use those 3 walkie talkies at all? 4 A: At -- at the one time I know of, yes, 5 we did. 6 Q: Well let me just ask you this before 7 we move on. Did you ever see Cecil Bernard George with a 8 -- with a gun or firearm in his possession that night? 9 A: Not me, no. 10 Q: Okay. And at some point in the 11 evening, did you have cause to use or listen to the 12 walkie talkies? 13 A: Yes. Yes, we did. 14 Q: Can you just tell me about that? 15 A: This would be -- it was night time. 16 He was -- he was going down on a westerly direction on 17 East Park Way to check out to see what the police were 18 doing. A recon I guess you'd say. 19 Q: A recon? 20 A: Yeah, to check out -- to see where 21 the police were, at what position or where they were at. 22 Q: Okay. And then what happened? 23 A: Well he was -- he was gone for a 24 while and over the walkie talkies to the best of my 25 knowledge and recollection that -- that he did -- he did
961 see some police because again it was to my -- best of my 2 recollection that he said there they are, there's a lot 3 of them. 4 Q: Did you overhear that -- those words? 5 A: On the walkie talkie, yeah, I believe 6 it was something to that affect. Whether or not those 7 were the actual words, I'm not too sure. 8 Q: Okay. That was the message? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And then what happened? 11 A: He returned back to the Park and it 12 wasn't too much longer after -- after that that the crowd 13 management unit started showing up visually on -- on East 14 Park Way. 15 Q: All right. Now before we get to 16 that, did you do anything in reaction to Mr. George's 17 advice or message that there were police? 18 A: Oh, oh. Yeah, yes I did. I forgot 19 about that. I went to another -- another one of our 20 checkpoint. I -- I believe it was at the Matheson Drive 21 and Army Camp Road here, to get -- I only know this guy 22 by one name and his name was Chuck, and Gabe Doxtator, 23 they -- they were to be at that -- one (1) point, but I - 24 - I was going to get them to bring them back down to the 25 Park, but when I got there they were gone.
971 So I went to the built-up area, the Army 2 Camp, to -- try and round up some people to -- to tell 3 them that -- that the police were -- were -- were going 4 to be coming in any -- any minute now and -- but I -- I 5 didn't get a hold of anybody in the built-up area, so I 6 went right back down to the Park. 7 Q: All right. Now, you just said that 8 you went to one (1) of your checkpoints, can you -- you 9 didn't mention checkpoints before, had the occupants set 10 up their own checkpoints? 11 A: Well, I don't know if you would want 12 to call it a checkpoint, he was just watching the -- the 13 -- the police's checkpoints, I guess. 14 Q: Were there people positioned around 15 the parameter of the Park on the lookout for police 16 activity? 17 A: Not around the whole perimeter, just 18 along Army Camp Road, I -- I believe. It was -- was 19 maybe just that -- that one (1) location. 20 Q: You said Matheson Drive? 21 A: I believe that -- that was -- it was 22 either that or it was the main entrance into the -- the 23 Park gate of -- either one (1) of those. 24 Q: Okay. Fair enough. All right. Now 25 you returned back to the Park. Was that in your car?
981 A: Yes, it was. 2 Q: Okay. Do you know about how long you 3 were away from the Park? 4 A: It wasn't long. 5 Q: All right. And when you arrived at 6 the Park, where did you go with your car? 7 A: Well, I -- I Parked the car -- 8 Q: Sorry, what -- what -- was -- 9 A: Somewhere -- somewheres in -- in 10 between the -- the store and -- and the fence. 11 Q: Why don't we just -- before you show - 12 - we're going to try and put an image up for you that may 13 assist you. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: On the screen, we have a copy of P-61, 18 the exhibit, for your reference. It's a map of the Park. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Can you tell me where it is that you 21 entered and then left your car, assuming you did leave 22 your car somewhere? 23 A: I believe it -- it -- I -- I can't 24 even remember. I -- I either went out this way or I went 25 out this way, but when I -- when I got back I -- I Parked
991 my car. 2 There was a little enclosure, a -- a fence 3 they had where they kept their wood and there was a 4 driveway going towards that. That's where I Parked my 5 car. 6 Q: All right. So you Parked you car, I 7 think you're pointing out on the map approximately on the 8 west side of the Park to the west of the Park store by -- 9 by the fence. Is that fair? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And what direction was 12 your car Parked? 13 A: I -- I can't -- I can't remember. 14 Q: All right. Fair enough. Did you -- 15 and was anyone in the car accompanying you? 16 A: Well, again, that was -- was my 17 girlfriend at the time that -- that went with me. 18 Q: I'm sorry, that's Sherry Lynn 19 Bressette? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And when you -- did you get out 22 of your car? 23 A: When? 24 Q: Did you get out of your car? 25 A: At what time?
1001 Q: When you Parked it? 2 A: Oh yeah. Yes, yes I did. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: I went to the fence, I think. 5 Q: Did you leave the car running? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you have your headlights on? 8 A: I don't think so. 9 Q: All right. When you exited the car, 10 what did you do? 11 A: I -- I can't remember if I -- I might 12 have been standing at my car, at the back of -- at my 13 car. I'm pretty sure I was standing at -- at the back of 14 my car at that time with a -- 15 Q: I know this is a long time ago so 16 just make your best efforts. 17 A: I'm just trying to figure it out 18 because I think I was standing at my car at that time. 19 Q: All right. And could you see 20 approximately how many people were within the Park when 21 you returned? 22 A: Including women and children there -- 23 there probably would have been maybe between twenty (20), 24 thirty (30), I'm not -- I'm not too sure. 25 Q: All right. Twenty (20) to thirty
1011 (30) including women and children? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: All right. And at this point in time 4 did you observe anyone in the Park with any type of guns 5 or firearms? 6 A: No. 7 Q: At this point in time did you observe 8 anybody in the Park with any types of clubs or other 9 objects that you have described as having been gathered 10 before? 11 A: Again, yeah, people were -- were 12 walking around with clubs. Like I said, ever since the 13 ramming of the picnic tables. 14 Q: Okay. And at some point in time did 15 you observe any police? Did you observe police coming? 16 A: At one point I -- I did -- I remember 17 -- I remember standing at the fence at one time and this 18 was when Slippery already -- he came back into the gate. 19 Now I guess that would have been maybe -- maybe five (5) 20 minutes before the crowd management started showing up on 21 East Park Way. 22 Q: Okay. So let me just be clear. You 23 referred to an individual named Slippery, who's that? 24 A: Bernard George. 25 Q: Okay. Cecil Bernard George?
1021 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Right. And he came back into the 3 Park, is that what you're saying? 4 A: Yeah. At that one time. 5 Q: And then about five (5) minutes later 6 you saw the police coming marching down? 7 A: At some time there they would have 8 had to have come down there, but I skipped the dog here 9 somewheres. I can't remember where I -- 10 Q: No just -- just take it one step at a 11 time, okay? You're -- you're doing fine. You see at 12 some point in time -- when's the first time you see the 13 police? 14 A: Timewise I -- I can't really say. 15 It's -- this thing is -- all these events in perspective 16 whereas -- it's awful confusing. 17 Q: That's okay. 18 A: Whereas you know what happened but 19 you don't know the -- the schedule of the events. 20 Q: I'm not asking for the clock -- time 21 on the clock, I'm asking you when's the first time -- 22 where were the -- let me put it this way -- where were 23 you when you first saw police on East Park Way Drive? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1031 A: I'm -- I'm not too sure if it was 2 after the incident of the dog or -- or not. That's one 3 of my -- my places where I -- I get -- getting awfully 4 confused and I can't put these little things into -- 5 Q: Into the sequence? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. Well let's -- let's start from 8 a point in time which you are comfortable with. You've 9 referred to an incident with a dog? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Can you tell me what that incident 12 was about? 13 A: Again I -- I did not see that happen. 14 I did not see -- see what happened with the dog. 15 Q: Did you hear anything? 16 A: I -- I heard a -- a dog yelp. 17 Q: And where were you? Were you inside 18 or outside the Park when that -- when you heard the dog 19 yelp? 20 A: Well, I believe at that time I was -- 21 I was standing near my car. 22 Q: Okay. Inside the Park? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And then what happened? 25 A: Well, my -- my brother Stewart went
1041 over there and, I don't know, somehow -- somehow we all - 2 - got to the point that we all went over the fence with 3 a -- 4 Q: All right. And did you have anything 5 in your hand when you went over the fence? 6 A: I -- I believe I did. 7 Q: What did you have? 8 A: A club. 9 Q: Can you describe for me the 10 dimensions and the material of the club? 11 A: The one (1) I had when I first went 12 over the fence, that there was -- I think it wasn't big 13 and it wasn't small. It was just something I -- I picked 14 up because I -- I didn't have anything in my hands when - 15 - when I knew everybody was going over the fence. I just 16 picked anything up. I really never made a -- any 17 observation of that. 18 But when I did get over the fence, I -- I 19 threw it. So that left me with -- with nothing at that 20 time. 21 Q: Where did you throw it? 22 A: Towards the police. 23 Q: Okay. To your knowledge, did it hit 24 a police officer? 25 A: I -- I don't even know.
1051 Q: All right. Did you, at any time, 2 strike or make physical contact with the police during 3 this first incident? 4 A: No, I -- I don't believe anybody did 5 any hitting then. 6 Q: And did -- were you struck or hit by 7 the police during this first incident? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Do you know whose dog that was that 10 had been yelping? 11 A: My brother Stewart. 12 Q: Stewart George's dog? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. Let me ask you -- all right. 15 What -- what happened next? 16 A: Well, I -- I believe that at first 17 when we went out there, we -- we got charged -- got 18 charged on marched on, or whatever, by the -- by the 19 police. And -- and, I, myself, I believe that's when -- 20 when they got a hold of Bernard George. 21 Q: Okay. Let me just back up. Are we - 22 - we're talking about -- are we talking about the first 23 time you went over the fence? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And approximately how many --
1061 were you able to observe approximately how many police 2 were in that vicinity? 3 A: About thirty (30). 4 Q: And approximately how many occupants 5 went out over the fence? 6 A: Not any more than twenty (20). 7 Q: All right. Were you able at that 8 time to observe what the police officers were wearing? 9 A: Yeah. Yeah. Before that, somewheres 10 before that we were -- we were watching them. I remember 11 that they -- they lined up right at -- right on the road, 12 almost one (1) end to the other lengthwise. And they 13 were in riot gear, fully dressed. 14 Q: Can you be a bit more specific? What 15 specifically were they wearing? Describe the riot gear. 16 A: Well, big shields, big plastic clear 17 shields, helmets, they had visors on them. They had leg 18 padding, they had chest padding. They had batons 19 because, at one -- one point, they were -- they were 20 yelling, stomping and -- and hitting their shields, I -- 21 I believe when they -- when they were lined up in -- in a 22 formation. That -- that's what they were doing. 23 Q: Now, just take a moment and describe 24 as best you can, what the batons looked like. 25 A: Well, we had one (1). I know what
1071 they look like. There was one (1) found on the road 2 after they went down Parkway Drive. It's a steel baton. 3 I can't remember how long they were, they might have been 4 maybe -- maybe this long; could have been longer or could 5 have been shorter, but when they were flipped, that they 6 would extend to -- to twice that length. 7 Q: Okay. Now, I'm trying to -- to -- you 8 -- you made a gesture that won't be caught -- captured by 9 the record, were you showing a -- a distance of about two 10 (2) feet or three (3) feet or what -- what? 11 A: I'd say around twelve (12) to sixteen 12 (16) inches they would have had to been, folded up. 13 Q: And then approximately double that 14 when they expanded? 15 A: Yeah, approximately. Yes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And you said that the police first 18 lined up -- this is before you went over the fence? 19 A: I -- I know they lined up -- lined up 20 after the first confrontation. I -- I know that -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- for sure, because -- 23 Q: Okay, well, that's -- that's fine. I 24 don't want to mix you up there. You're talking about 25 lining up. They lined up after the first skirmish, if I
1081 can put it that way? 2 A: Yeah. Yeah, they -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- they got back into formation. 5 Q: Okay. And approximately how many 6 lines did you observe? 7 A: I'm not too sure if there was, at that 8 time, just the one (1) single line or -- or they had two 9 (2). I'm not too sure, but I think the time before that 10 we observed them when they were -- they had a single 11 line. I believe it was prior to that -- that first 12 confrontation. 13 Q: Okay. Mr. George, would it be easier 14 if we, perhaps, put up the -- used the diagram for you to 15 -- to tell this -- to assist us? 16 A: It might. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm wondering, Mr. 18 Commissioner, it's -- is five (5) to 1:00. Can we take 19 the lunch break now and I'll set up the appropriate 20 diagram and we can resume this chronology? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 22 adjourn now until 2:15. 23 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 24 Inquiry stands adjourned until 2:15. 25
1091 --- Upon recessing at 12:57 p.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 2:15 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 afternoon. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Afternoon. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: Now, Mr. George, just before we broke 12 for lunch you had described a skirmish in -- in which 13 there was the yelping of a dog, people going out over the 14 fence. You said there was no exchange of physical 15 contact that you could see. 16 And then what happened after that? Where 17 did you go? 18 A: Well, after -- after that first 19 confrontation, you know, there was -- there was no 20 hitting or - or nothing that I -- I noticed. We all 21 retreated back into the Park on the other side of the 22 fence. I believe at that time that the -- the riot -- 23 riot unit -- the police -- they -- they came quite close 24 to the -- to the fence at that time. 25 And I -- I can't remember if there was a -
1101 - a -- a exchange of words of whatever. I would imagine 2 there was, but I -- I can't recall what they were. 3 Anyways, they -- they -- they went back to -- to the 4 corner of the road, the paved part -- the paved portion. 5 Q: Sorry, to -- to the what? 6 A: To the -- the paved portion -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- of the -- of the road -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: . the curb -- the curb. And they got 11 back into the formation and -- and somebody noticed that 12 -- that they had somebody out there, beating him and 13 kicking him. And we took a head count to find out who it 14 was they had out there and -- and we came up with the -- 15 the assumption that -- that it was -- well, actually, 16 there -- there was two (2) people missing, but we didn't 17 pick that up at that time. 18 But we --we knew it was -- it was our 19 guess that it was Cecil Bernard George at that time. It 20 wasn't the other person, which we found later on. There 21 was actually two (2) missing, the other one being Mike 22 Cloud. 23 Anyways, we -- we noticed that they were - 24 - they were really, really, really beating on him, 25 kicking -- kicking him and striking him continuously with
1111 the -- with their ASPs. You know to a -- to a -- to a 2 very -- very -- very bad degree of -- of striking him and 3 I -- I -- I knew that -- that he was getting -- getting 4 severely hurt just -- just by observing how much times he 5 was being struck, whether it be by -- by -- by -- by 6 kicking him or -- or -- or the hitting of the ASPs. 7 Anyways, I guess as a -- as a group that 8 we decided that we should do something about that to -- 9 to stop that beating because of the severity of it. So 10 we all went back out the fence and -- and they charged at 11 us. And -- and that's -- that's when we had that -- the 12 final confrontation with them and resulted in the -- the 13 death of Dudley. 14 Q: All right. Perhaps I could stop you 15 at that point in your -- in your narrative and just back 16 up a little bit if I might. First of all, did you 17 actually see police making these kicking and hitting 18 gestures around the person who you found out later was 19 Cecil Bernard? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: All right. And was there anything -- 22 can you describe what these police looked like? Were 23 they the same as -- as the crowd management unit that you 24 had witnessed earlier? 25 A: Well, it was kind of confusing at
1121 that time but it was to my knowledge that they weren't -- 2 they weren't the crowd management unit. They were -- 3 they were dressed differently as -- it might have been a 4 tactical uniform that they had as they -- they didn't 5 have the shields. 6 Q: In what way were they dressed 7 differently? You said something about shields? 8 A: No, they didn't have the shields when 9 we were around, unless they laid them down; I don't know. 10 But I didn't see no shields amongst -- amongst those 11 seven (7), eight (8) or nine (9) officers that were 12 actually doing the striking. 13 Q: Did you see approximately how many 14 police officers appeared to be surrounding Cecil Bernard 15 George? 16 A: Seven (7) to nine (9). 17 Q: Now, just -- I wonder if Mr. Miller 18 could put onto the screen Inquiry Document Number 1004562 19 and go to the last page of that document, please. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, this is the document that was 24 attached to a statement that was prepared -- that was 25 made by you to the Special Investigation Unit. And
1131 you'll see that this document is entitled "Elwood George" 2 on . on the left side, and it's dated September the 7th, 3 I believe that is, 1997, at 2:18 p.m. 4 And at the right side of this document 5 there's a signature. Can you identify that signature? 6 A: Yes. That's mine. 7 Q: All right. And did you in fact place 8 markings on this document during the course of your 9 interview for the Special Investigations Unit? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: And are those markings identified on 12 this drawing? 13 A: Yes, they are. 14 Q: All right. Commissioner, I'd like to 15 make this the next exhibit, please. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-74, Your Honour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 74. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-74: DOCUMENT 1004562 (LAST PAGE) 20 MARKED AND SIGNED BY ELWOOD 21 T. GEORGE SEPT 10/97 2:18 22 P.M. "STAN" THOMPSON DRAWING 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: Now, Mr. George, would you, using
1141 your laser printer -- or laser pen, tell us what markings 2 you've put on to the sheet and what they represent? 3 A: This - this one "S" is approximately 4 the location of where the beating was taking place that 5 involved the seven (7) to nine (9) officers and Slippery, 6 Cecil Bernard George. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: I also put this one on there that 9 represents the vehicle, I believe it was a van, that they 10 had thrown him in the back during that weekend then of 11 that second skirmish. 12 Q: All right. And just for the record, 13 the witness just pointed to the rectangle shape to the 14 left of the circle with one (1) "S" in it, and there's a 15 line drawn also from that rectangular structure. 16 And any other markings there? 17 A: This one here, it would be 18 approximately where we were at the -- behind the fence, 19 inside of the Park, the west side of Park Ipperwash. 20 Q: And that marking is a circle with the 21 number .1" in it? 22 A: I believe so, yes. 23 Q: And is this where you were 24 approximately when you observed the police officers 25 surrounding Cecil Bernard George?
1151 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. All right. Now you -- you 3 were telling us that you saw him -- that you saw this 4 happening, that you took a head count and figured who it 5 must be and then did you do something after that? 6 A: I guess it was -- was a real -- real 7 quick decision, split second if you want to call it that 8 to -- to agree as a group what we were going to do about 9 it to . to stop that beating. And I -- I guess it was 10 that -- the decision was that we -- we go out there and 11 do whatever we could to try to stop them. 12 Q: And so what happened? 13 A: Well, we all went out there. We were 14 in the sandy Parking lot and they -- they charged us and 15 we had that -- we had the confrontation that -- that 16 actually didn't result in striking of each other, our 17 group -- against our group. 18 Q: And did you strike any police 19 officer? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: With what did you strike a police 22 officer? 23 A: A large club. 24 Q: Can you describe the approximate 25 dimensions of this club?
1161 A: Length would be in the vicinity of 2 four (4) feet I would imagine. The roundness would be -- 3 be about two (2) inches round I -- I would imagine. It 4 was fairly round and because of the weight of it, I -- I 5 could tell it was a freshly cut limb from the tree. It 6 was dried and that -- that club is . is one (1) I picked 7 up in the sandy Parking lot. 8 I didn't take it over the fence with me. 9 The one I took over the fence with me I . I threw at the 10 policeman. And I didn't have a club in my hand at that 11 time then when we were still in the confrontation I 12 stepped on something and then I reached down and that was 13 the club I picked up. 14 Q: Okay. And do you know where you 15 struck the police officer with that club? 16 A: In the helmet area, upper part of the 17 body. 18 Q: And were you struck at any point 19 during this second confrontation or skirmish? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 22 A: We were very badly outnumbered. 23 Things weren't going too good . too good for us, really 24 this and that. I -- I believe I heard somebody yell for 25 -- for the bus to come out so I started yelling for the
1171 bus to . to come out also. 2 Q: All right. And why -- why did you 3 yell for the bus to come out? 4 A: It was to help us and helping to -. 5 to stop that .- that beating that Cecil Bernard George 6 was getting. 7 Q: Okay. And what happens after you 8 shouted for the bus and others shouted for the bus to 9 come out? 10 A: Well it -- it did come out. I don't 11 know how long or -- or I don't even know was driving it. 12 And that was something that was -- was never, ever talked 13 about for -- was the use of the bus for that purpose. 14 That was never, ever talked about. 15 Q: You mean -- well, are you saying that 16 the bus wasn't brought down for that particular purpose? 17 Is that what you're saying? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. All right. Did you see the bus 20 exit the Park? 21 A: No, I -- I -- I was -- I was 22 preoccupied, but I -- I -- I know where -- where it did 23 exit the Park. I -- I never really viewed it until it 24 was actually in the sandy Parking lot. 25 Q: All right. And once you did notice
1181 the bus, it was already in the sandy Parking lot, where 2 the skirmish was taking place? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And at that point, did you follow the 5 progress of the bus, where it was going? 6 A: Once it was to -- once it was to the 7 right of our group, I guess, it would be that we -- we 8 started retreating back into the Park. Somewheres along 9 -- along that -- that -- that way it was, I guess is 10 where I kind of, heard -- heard some banging of some 11 sort. 12 Q: All right. And perhaps -- we've got 13 behind you, to your left, a copy of the diagram which was 14 drawn by Ken Thompson -- Stan Thompson -- perhaps, you 15 could -- Do you have a pen with you there? 16 A: Yes, I do. 17 Q: At some point, did you see the bus in 18 a stationary position outside of the Park? 19 A: After -- after we got the -- to the -- 20 to the gate, yes I -- I noticed that it -- it was moving; 21 it wasn't -- it wasn't trying to back up into the -- to 22 the Park, it was stationary at that time. 23 Q: Okay. Let me back you up, then -- go 24 back a bit. You said that you -- you saw the bus in the 25 sandy Parking lot. When did the banging noises happen
1191 relative to you seeing the bus? 2 A: The banging noises would have been -- 3 been when the bus was in a -- in a forward motion. 4 Q: Going forward in what direction? 5 A: It was going westerly. 6 Q: Okay. Towards what street? 7 A: Towards East -- East Parkway. 8 Q: All right. And did you see whether or 9 not the bus ever reached the -- the paved part of the 10 road? 11 A: I -- I didn't watch it, to -- to get 12 to that -- point, but when -- when I did go back out 13 there, it -- it was -- was Parked out -- out that way. 14 Q: Using your pen and the diagram behind 15 you, can you mark with an "X" and a one (1), the 16 approximate location of the bus when you saw it at its -- 17 advanced in its most forward position, westerly? 18 A: This is a -- just a approximate 19 location. I don't know exactly where it was. 20 Q: Sure, an approximate location is fine. 21 And could you mark a one (1) beside that "X" please? And 22 if I may describe it, it looks like its on the -- the -- 23 the bend of East Parkway Drive as it bends towards Army 24 Camp Road and you have it -- do you have it on the sandy 25 part?
1201 A: It might have been on -- on the -- on 2 the pavement. It was around -- around in that -- that 3 vicinity. 4 Q: Was it on the curb area? 5 A: I -- I kind of think it -- it might 6 have been on the tarmac -- but it still is around in that 7 vicinity. 8 Q: Is there -- is there a black marker 9 there as well? 10 A: Yes, yes there is. 11 Q: Okay. Can you just use your black 12 marker perhaps to trace over the X and the 1. That might 13 be a little bit easier for everyone else to see. Okay, 14 and you've drawn a box around the X. All right. Now 15 tell me what you next recall happening as you are hearing 16 the banging noises? 17 A: I believe -- well, at that time, that 18 square, that's where the bus was stopped when I -- I 19 returned back out there. But the banging noises, the -- 20 they occurred when the bus was in a forward motion. It 21 was before it reached that point. 22 Q: Okay. All right. So you heard the 23 banging noises while the bus was still going forward? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And then what happened?
1211 A: Once the bus passed -- passed us, we 2 started heading back into -- into the gate. 3 Q: To the Park? 4 A: Yes. Into the Park. And on -- on my 5 way to the Park then I heard Dudley say he was hit. 6 Q: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. 7 A: On the way back into the Park I -- I 8 heard Dudley say that he was hit. 9 Q: Okay. And about how far away from 10 Dudley George were you when you heard him say that he was 11 hit? 12 A: Approximately fifteen (15) feet. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Somewhere around there. 15 Q: All right. And -- 16 A: It could be twenty (20) I'd say. 17 Around here, it's fairly close I guess. 18 Q: All right. And do you recall when 19 you testified at the Dean Trial, do you recall preparing 20 a diagram, marking a diagram showing the place where you 21 saw Dudley George say that he was hit? 22 A: Approximately. Yeah I do remember 23 marking something there, yeah. 24 Q: Okay. I'm just going to put that 25 diagram up for you. Yes, first of all though,
1221 Commissioner, let's make the -- the Stan Thompson 2 intersection marked with the 'X' and the '1' the next 3 exhibit, please. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-75, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-75: "STAN" THOMPSON DRAWING SEPT 20/95 7 MARKED BY WITNESS ELWOOD GEORGE NOV 8 03/04 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: All right. I'm showing to you a 12 diagram behind you and at the top of this diagram it 13 says, Elwood George and it's a -- it's a representation 14 of the intersection of East Park Way Drive and Army Camp 15 Road. Do you -- and there are two (2) markings on it 16 with initials 'E.G.' and 'D.G.'. 17 Do you recognize those initials? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And did you in fact place those 20 initials and those markings on the diagram? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell me what those two 23 (2) X's represent and perhaps you can use the pointer to 24 demonstrate. 25 A: That X represents me. I was in
1231 motion to go back into the Park at that time. 2 Q: And I'm sorry, it has the initials 3 E.G.? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: It was approximately at that point 7 that I did hear Dudley -- Dudley say he was hit. 8 Q: All right. And -- 9 A: And the D.G. is a representation of 10 Dudley. 11 Q: Thank you. I would like to make this 12 the next exhibit, Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-76 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 76. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-76: "STAN" THOMPSON DRAWING SEPT 18 20/95 MARKED BY ELWOOD GEORGE WITH NAME 19 "ELWOOD GEORGE" ON TOP RIGHT-HAND CORNER 20 OF DRAWING, DRAWING APRIL 02/97 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: All right. And what happened after 24 you heard those words? 25 A: I -- I went over to him. He wasn't -
1241 - he wasn't moving like he usually does. He was a lot 2 slower. So -- so I helped him get back into the fence. 3 I put his one (1) arm around me -- anyways, he took -- he 4 was able to take two (2) or three (3) steps before he 5 became limp. And I believe he went to the ground. 6 At that time I hollered for -- for help to 7 get him back into -- to the Park. Help did -- help did 8 come. I don't even know who it was but we did get him to 9 -- to the gate of the Park. And I went back up to help 10 with the bus and whoever was still out there. 11 Q: Would you like a few moments, Mr. 12 George? 13 A: No, thanks, it's all right. 14 Q: All right. Now, when you first saw 15 Mr. Dudley George after he spoke those words, was he 16 standing on his own? 17 A: Yes, he was. 18 Q: Did -- was he -- did he take any 19 steps before you reached him? 20 A: Not that I noticed. It wasn't until 21 I was helping him that -- that I noticed he -- he did 22 take two (2), three (3), maybe four (4) steps before he 23 collapsed. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. And when he collapsed, did 25 you say that he fell to the ground?
1251 A: Yes. 2 Q: At that time did you observe any 3 wounds? 4 A: No -- no, I didn't. 5 Q: All right. Did he say anything 6 further to you? 7 A: No, he didn't. 8 Q: Did you observe whether or not his 9 eyes were open at this point? 10 A: No, I didn't. I was too concerned on 11 getting him into the gate rather than leaving him out 12 there. 13 Q: You said that you hollered for some 14 people to help and they came? 15 A: Yeah. One (1) person came and helped 16 me get him -- got him to the gate, where I -- I think 17 maybe -- maybe four (4) other people might have -- might 18 have gotten him to get him into the -- a car. 19 Q: All right. Do you recall whose car 20 he was put into? 21 A: I -- I don't really -- really 22 remember. 23 Q: And then the car left with him? 24 A: Yes, it did. 25 Q: And what did you do after the car
1261 left? 2 A: I went back out to -- onto East 3 Parkway. 4 Q: You went back out where? 5 A: Onto the road. 6 Q: Okay. And why did you go back onto 7 the road? 8 A: To try and help whoever was out there 9 and in the bus, to get back into the gate. 10 Q: Did the bus return successfully into 11 the Park? 12 A: Yes, it did. How long it took, I 13 didn't realize the length of time it took for it to 14 actually get back in there. 15 Q: And did you notice whether the bus 16 was travelling backwards or forwards when it went back 17 into the Park? 18 A: I believe it backed in. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: It would have -- it would have taken 21 it a long time to back in because of the narrowness of 22 the gate and the fact that when it did come out it had to 23 -- had to push a dumpster out of the way, so it had to 24 steer around that dumpster going backwards to get back 25 into the gate.
1271 Q: All right. All right. Now, earlier 2 in -- in the skirmish, you said that -- that you saw the 3 bus go forward. Did you observer whether or not the bus, 4 at any time, came into contact physically with any police 5 officers? 6 A: No. When the bus was in the forward 7 motion I was -- once it did pass -- pass in front of us 8 going in that westerly direction, there was quite a few 9 of us that -- that did head towards -- back into the 10 Park. 11 Q: Okay. So you were turned in the 12 opposite direction as the bus continued to go forward. 13 Is that right? 14 A: Yeah. As it -- as it -- as it passed, 15 yeah, we -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- turned around to -- to go back the 18 other direction. 19 Q: All right. And the banging noises 20 that you have referred to, what did those noises sound 21 like to you? I mean, what type of banging? 22 A: I -- I -- I couldn't recognize. I -- 23 I -- just could recognize them as banging. I couldn't 24 distinguish at that time or -- or even to this very day 25 what those banging noises actually were. They could have
1281 been the police hitting their shields again, but I -- I 2 don't know. I really just don't know what they were. 3 Q: Okay. And could you distinguish 4 approximately how many of these banging noises you heard? 5 A: At -- at -- at that time, I -- I would 6 have -- I would have guessed about twelve (12), around 7 there. 8 Q: All right. Now, when you saw Dudley 9 George, when he spoke those words to you that he'd been 10 hit, did you see anything in his hand? 11 A: I -- I can't remember if he had a 12 stick in his hand at that time. I -- I don't think he 13 had anything. 14 Q: All right. Did you see any -- any 15 object -- long object around him on the ground? 16 A: I -- I -- I didn't have no time. I 17 didn't look around. 18 Q: After the car left the Park with 19 Dudley George in it and you went back to the road, did 20 you see any further police? 21 A: When I went back out? 22 Q: Back out after the car left? 23 A: Just the -- they were heading back in 24 a westerly direction down East Parkway Drive. 25 Q: Okay. Now, did you see any car leave
1291 the Park during the course of the -- the second skirmish? 2 A: I -- I didn't notice the car. I -- I 3 think I might have noticed it after the second skirmish 4 was over. I -- I might have noticed it. 5 Q: Okay. So, you didn't see a car follow 6 the bus out of the Park? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. Approximately how long do 9 you think that the second skirmish took place? 10 A: It was fast, not -- not a minute. 11 Q: Sorry? 12 A: Not over a minute. It was real fast. 13 Q: And the -- the whole incident from 14 when the -- when you first noticed the police in the 15 sandy Parking lot area until the police departed, how 16 long was that whole event covering the two (2) 17 skirmishes? 18 A: The two (2) skirmishes -- might -- 19 might have been five (5) minutes. It could have been 20 considerably less, but -- but no more than five (5). 21 Q: All right. Now, what happened, then, 22 after you returned to roadway and you saw the police 23 travelling in a westerly direction down East Parkway 24 Drive? 25 A: Can you repeat that again?
1301 Q: Sure. What did you do following -- 2 once the police left the scene, travelling down East 3 Parkway Drive? 4 A: You mean right -- right after the 5 skirmish? 6 Q: Right after, yes. 7 A: I -- I went back out there. They 8 were -- they were well on their way down -- down East 9 Parkway Drive. You know, like, there was no sense in -- 10 in chasing them down that far or even attempting to do 11 something like that. 12 So -- so the stick I had, I just -- I just 13 threw it at them, trying to hit their -- the bottoms of 14 their legs. 15 Q: And what did you do next? 16 A: Oh, went back into the Park at that 17 time. I -- I believe they had the bus going backwards 18 then. I -- I really -- really don't remember. 19 Q: All right. Did you stay in the Park 20 after the bus returned to the Park? 21 A: Yes, for -- for a little while. 22 Again, I can't tell you how long, but I can tell you we 23 received a -- a phone call saying that Dudley -- 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1311 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 2 to take a short break? 3 THE WITNESS: NO, I'm all right. We 4 received a message stating that Dudley had just died. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: And -- and what did you do when you 8 received that information? 9 A: Just sat around, bewildered, shocked. 10 I can't explain it. Mad. Somebody said, Burn the Park 11 store down. So I -- I think everybody had a little bit 12 of hand in doing that. 13 I think we all went to the built-up area. 14 Q: Do you know what was used to burn the 15 -- the Park store? 16 A: Well, I -- I don't really know for 17 sure. I think there was two (2) or three (3) attempts to 18 burn it. I think gas was one of the last things to be 19 used. It might have been one of the first and second; I 20 don't really -- really remember. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. And you said that you 22 received the information about Dudley George's death by 23 telephone? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: But where was that telephone?
1321 A: It was at the Park store. It was -- 2 I believe it was the outside telephone booth. 3 Q: Now, at this time, did you know what 4 had happened, if anything, to Cecil Bernard George? Did 5 you know about his whereabouts or state? 6 A: No. It would be a little while after 7 that we were up in the built-up area. I don't -- I don't 8 know how long we were up there but Bonnie Bressette, she 9 -- she came into the camp and he mentioned something 10 about Bernard, you know, Cecil Bernard George being shot 11 in the head. 12 And we were -- I don't know, I can't 13 explain that feeling neither because we knew that Bernard 14 wasn't shot when they took him into the custody. So, you 15 know, there we were, sitting and thinking that the police 16 had shotten him in the head at that time. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. And what was your reaction? 18 A: Oh, I can't -- I can't explain it. 19 Disbelief I guess would be the word for it. Surprised. 20 Q: Have you seen any other -- have you 21 witnessed any other injuries of any occupants from -- 22 after 23 -- after the Park incident that night? 24 A: Nicholas I guess had a -- a graze -- 25 bullet graze and it might have been a little bit of a
1331 wound from some glass. 2 Robert Isaac was pretty sore in the rib 3 areas. Other than that, I -- I really can't recall 4 anybody else being hurt. 5 Q: And I didn't hear the person with the 6 first injury that you described? 7 A: Nicholas. 8 Q: Nicholas Cottrelle? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Did you actually see that? 11 A: No, I didn't. 12 Q: Okay. Did you see -- did you see him 13 at all after he got back to the barracks that night? 14 A: I -- I don't think I seen him til the 15 next day. I really can't tell you when I -- I seen him 16 next to be sure. 17 Q: When you returned to the barracks, 18 where specifically did you go? 19 A: I believe it was Clinton George's 20 house. I believe it was -- because I remember Marcia 21 Simon, I think it might have been. It was a reporter of 22 some sort. I -- I don't know if it was that Kathy Buhler 23 (phonetic) or -- or not but I remember telling -- telling 24 that reporter that they shot Slippery in the head because 25 of what we were told by -- by Bonnie Bressette.
1341 Q: Now, when you got back to the 2 barracks, did you know the whereabouts of your son 3 Wesley? 4 A: He was -- he was around there. He 5 was down in the Park with us that -- that night when -- 6 when that happened. I take it we all -- he was up in the 7 built-up area with the swing. Everybody else went up. 8 Q: And how old was Wesley then? 9 A: He was fifteen (15). 10 Q: Were there any other children at the 11 barracks when you arrived later that evening? 12 A: Yes there was, but again I -- I can't 13 say who they were. Not -- not because I don't want to, 14 it's just because I can't remember. 15 Q: Okay. Do you know whether there were 16 any women at the barracks when you got back there? 17 A: There were some. I guess some of the 18 ones that -- that were down there with -- with us or 19 there may be some of the ones that -- that might have 20 went to the front to see what they could do maybe for 21 Dudley or I -- I don't know. But there some -- some 22 women up there yes. 23 Q: And you indicated that at some point 24 Bonnie Bressette came. Do you know approximately what 25 time she came?
1351 A: That was 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, somewhere 2 around in there. 3 Q: Okay and this would be in the morning 4 of September 7th? 5 A: Yeah. Yeah. 6 Q: And do you know what the purpose of 7 her being -- arriving at the barracks was? 8 A: At that -- at that time, no, I don't. 9 Q: All right. And you indicated that 10 she told you what she thought had happened to Cecil 11 Bernard George. 12 A: Well she -- she didn't say that to 13 me. I -- I think she might have said that to not -- not 14 just to one person, kind of to whoever was there at the 15 time. 16 Q: Who did you hear that from? Who did 17 you hear that -- that information from; was it directly 18 from Bonnie Bressette or from -- 19 A: Yes, it was. 20 Q: Okay. And how -- did Bonnie 21 Bressette leave at some point, leave the barracks? 22 A: She -- she took some two (2) or three 23 (3) loads of kids out of the camp. 24 Q: Did that include your son Wesley? 25 A: Yes, it did.
1361 Q: And why did you allow Wesley to leave 2 the -- the barracks with Bonnie Bressette at that time? 3 A: For his -- for his safety. 4 Q: What was your concern? 5 A: Well, at that time, we knew that 6 Dudley had been shot -- killed, nephew Ugga (phonetic) 7 shot, what extent we didn't know then. We believed that 8 Cecil Bernard George was shot in the head while he was in 9 custody at that -- at that time. So, knowing that, we -- 10 we -- we didn't know what the police would have done next 11 time. 12 Q: Okay. Now, you mentioned Ugga, the 13 name Ugga, is that the -- you say, your nephew, Ugga. 14 Who is that? 15 A: Nicholas Cottrelle. 16 Q: Okay. Did you remain in the barracks 17 for the remainder of that evening? 18 A: Yes, I did. 19 Q: And did you stay up all night? 20 A: For about three (3) days. 21 Q: For about three (3) days you stayed 22 up? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Why was that? 25 A: Couldn't sleep.
1371 Q: Okay. Did you observe anyone within 2 the barracks that evening, the late hours of September 3 6th -- early hours of September 7th, with their rifle or 4 any other firearm once you were back at the barracks? 5 A: No. Even after all of that happened, 6 I didn't see nobody with any firearms of any kind. 7 Q: Were you present in the barracks the 8 following morning? 9 A: Yes, I was. 10 Q: And did any event occur that morning 11 which you observed, of significance? 12 A: Well, at that time, I -- I don't know 13 if it was the morning or early afternoon, but there was a 14 lot of people come down the road to, I don't know, to 15 stop it -- whatever was going on -- on -- on the police 16 behalf, I believe. 17 Q: And do you know where those people 18 came from? 19 A: All over. I -- I can't say -- 20 different reserves. 21 Q: And which road did they come down? 22 A: They came down twenty-one (21). 23 Q: Highway 21? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And what was your reaction when you
1381 saw those people coming? 2 A: I was glad. 3 Q: Did you return to the Park area on 4 September the 7th? 5 A: For -- for a little while. 6 Q: And what were you doing down in that 7 area? 8 A: I -- I really don't know, I'm -- it 9 was just something -- something to do -- some place to 10 go. 11 Q: Do you recall approximately at what 12 time of day it was that you went down to the Park? 13 A: Some time during the afternoon. 14 Q: And when you went to the Park, did you 15 see any -- any police officers in that vicinity? 16 A: No, not at that time. 17 Q: Had you seen -- okay -- and that was 18 the first time you went down to the Park -- 19 A: Yeah. Yeah. 20 Q: -- since the event? Did you find 21 anything while you were down at the Park of significance? 22 A: I found three (3) shell casings along 23 -- alongside the road. 24 Q: And can you recall, I'm sorry, which 25 road you found them along?
1391 A: I -- I believe it -- it was around in 2 this area here. 3 Q: All right. So that is the south curb 4 of -- south of the East Parkway Drive just as it bends 5 into the Army Camp Road approximately? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what did you do with those bullet 8 cases? 9 A: We saved them. They were turned into 10 the SIU whenever the SIU showed up. I think only two (2) 11 of those -- two (2) of those shells were turned in 12 because we lost the other one. 13 Q: And I think, did you describe these 14 as shot cases? 15 A: Bullet cases, yes. 16 Q: Bullet cases and you can you just 17 help me out with what you mean by a bullet case? 18 A: They were the brass -- brass casings 19 which hold the detonator and the -- and the gun powder. 20 Q: Okay. So it's like the shell of the 21 bullet? 22 A: Yeah, the -- 23 Q: In layperson's terms? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And the third one that you
1401 lost, was it different in any way from the two (2) that 2 you turned in? 3 A: No. Those -- those three (3) there 4 that I found were the same. 5 Q: Okay. And did you find anything else 6 in -- in or around the -- that vicinity when you went 7 back on September the 7th? 8 A: No. I really didn't -- I wasn't 9 there that long. 10 Q: Okay. Did you happen to go down to 11 the Ministry of Natural Resources' Parking lot on East 12 Parkway Drive where the -- where we understand that the 13 command post was set up? 14 A: I - I did not. 15 Q: Okay. How have the events of 16 September 6th affected you if -- if at all? 17 A: Well, at that time I didn't have I 18 guess a very good -- I guess I didn't respect the -- the 19 law too much at that time and a lot less now. 20 Q: Were you the subject of any criminal 21 charges arising out of the events of September 4th to 22 6th, 1995? 23 A: I think it might have been trespass - 24 - or something, a whole bunch of us was charged with the 25 same -- the same charge. But it got dropped in court and
1411 I don't know why. 2 Q: Knowing what happened that night, the 3 night of September the 6th, what if anything would you 4 have done differently that evening? 5 A: No, I wouldn't have changed nothing 6 because everything we did, we did great. 7 Q: How -- what do you mean? 8 A: It was set out to be a peaceful 9 occupation and -- and that's what it was on our behalf 10 other than maybe given Dudley a bullet proof vest maybe. 11 Q: I'm sorry I didn't hear that last 12 bit. 13 A: Other than maybe giving Dudley a 14 bullet proof vest. 15 Q: Okay. A bullet proof vest? 16 A: Yeah. He might have been alive 17 today. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, Mr. George. 19 Those are my questions, Mr. Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 It's ten after 3:00. I think we'll take a break but 22 before we do we'll see what the -- well, I think we'll 23 take a break now but before we do we'll see what the lay 24 of the land is regarding cross-examination. 25 Anybody who wishes to cross-examine, would
1421 you please give me some visible indication? One (1), two 2 (2), three (3), four (4), five (5), six (6). Okay. You 3 want to -- have you got the chart or -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- in front 6 of you? How long do you expect to be, Mr. Klippenstein? 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Fifteen (15) to 8 twenty (20) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 10 to twenty (20) minutes. Yes? 11 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Ten (10) minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 13 minutes. The Government of Ontario? No? Perhaps, 14 depending on what other do. 15 MS. SUE FREEBORN: Exactly. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: OPP? 17 MR. PETER WEST: Between forty (40) and 18 forty-five (45) minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: OPPA? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Two (2) hours. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 22 Downard...? 23 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Reserve half (1/2) an 24 hour. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr.
1431 Sulman...? 2 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Ten (10) to fifteen 3 (15) minutes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have I got 5 everybody who indicated a -- a definite desire? Okay. 6 We'll start right after the break. We'll take a fifteen 7 (15) minute break. We're going to adjourn at 4:30. So 8 we'll take a fifteen (15) minute break and then continue. 9 Are you all right? No? 10 THE WITNESS: Yep. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 for fifteen (15) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 3:12 p.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 3:30 p.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 Okay. Mr. Klippenstein, do you want to start? Yes, sir. 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 23 Q: Good afternoon -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Don't worry 25 about my pen. I know a lot of you seem to pay attention
1441 to the -- the pen. But, you know, everything is being 2 recorded. So I'm just writing what I -- what I need. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 5 Q: Thanks. Good afternoon, Mr. George. 6 My name is Murray Klippenstein and I'm Legal Counsel for 7 the estate of Dudley George and for Maynard Sam George, 8 who's with us here today, and for four (4) other brothers 9 and sisters of Dudley. 10 I'd like to ask you a few questions about 11 what you've just finished describing. And that's part of 12 the -- the skirmish, as -- as it's been called, on 13 September 6th, in the evening. 14 You've said that you were around the fence 15 or near the Parking lot when the police group or 16 formation came down East Parkway Road towards the Park; 17 is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And can you tell us a little bit how 20 you felt when you saw the police coming towards the Park 21 at that time? 22 A: I -- I just wondered what -- what 23 they were doing. I really don't know why they were 24 there. I didn't -- just really don't know. I don't 25 know, I guess I was kind of amazed to see them coming
1451 down the road like that. 2 Q: And then you described things that 3 happened after that and then you described a -- a point 4 in time in which you saw that, according to you, a number 5 of police officers were beating somebody who you thought 6 was -- was one (1) of the protestors; is that right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then you described what you 9 called, I think, was something like a split-second 10 decision of the group to -- to try and go and help; is 11 that right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Can you tell us a little bit about 14 how you felt when you were part of that decision and when 15 you began to go over the fence to help that person? 16 A: How I felt? I -- I felt that -- that 17 somebody that was getting beat to that degree -- nobody - 18 - no normal person wouldn't be able to sustain that type 19 of punishment or beating for, you know, for -- for a 20 minute or two (2) minutes or -- or whatever. They were - 21 - they were continuously kicking him; continuously 22 hitting with the ASPs, nonstop. 23 Q: And seeing that made you feel that you 24 wished to go and help? 25 A: Well, I -- I guess that would be a
1461 natural thing to feel is -- is to -- to go help somebody 2 that was getting beat to that extent. I felt that it was 3 something that had to be done. 4 Q: And you described some of the other 5 events that happened and you described the point where 6 you were headed back towards the Park; is that -- is that 7 right? 8 A: After the skirmish? 9 Q: Yeah. Yes, after the bus came out, 10 there was a point where you were heading back towards the 11 Park; is that right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it's at that point you heard 14 Dudley say something or cry out? 15 A: Yes, once the -- once the mass -- the 16 bus passed -- passed our position where we were standing 17 that -- that the bus was more in a -- in a westward 18 vicinity than -- than -- than where we were. It -- it 19 had passed us where -- where the bus wasn't in between us 20 and -- and the gate. 21 Q: And when you heard Dudley exclaim, is 22 that what made you stop heading back towards the Park? 23 A: Well, I -- I believe I was already 24 heading towards the Park when -- when he -- when he -- I 25 did hear him say he was hit.
1471 Q: And did you then stop when you heard 2 that? 3 A: I don't know about stopping, I went to 4 him. 5 Q: And was he beside you or behind you or 6 farther from the Park than you were? 7 A: No. No, I would be further -- further 8 away from the Park. I believe that he was off to my 9 right, but he would still be closer to the entrance of 10 the Park. 11 Q: And you started to head towards him; 12 is that right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what was happening as you started 15 to head towards him? Were there -- was there gunfire? 16 A: Again, the banging that I heard, I -- 17 I couldn't distinguish it as -- as gunfire. It was 18 unrecognizable to me. 19 Q: And you described, how when you got to 20 Dudley, you -- you -- you gave him or you took his arm 21 and put it around you? 22 A: Yeah. Yeah, I believe that was the 23 only way I -- I could -- could help him or -- or he could 24 help me was -- was to do that. I -- I couldn't get a 25 hold of him or -- or anything like that to -- to help
1481 hold him up. 2 Q: Could you tell me a bit about how you 3 felt as you stopped to help him? 4 A: I -- I really didn't -- didn't think 5 about it at that time. I guess I just wondered what he 6 meant by, I was hit. 7 Q: Did you realize that he might have 8 been shot at that point? 9 A: Not -- not right at that point, no. 10 Q: I take it from other evidence, we've 11 heard that by that time there were bullets flying around; 12 is that -- is that -- do you have any -- 13 A: I -- I didn't realize there was any 14 bullets or like were even the gun. I didn't realize any 15 of that. 16 Q: But you realize that now? 17 A: Oh, yes, I do. 18 Q: On behalf of my clients and the 19 siblings of Dudley and others, I just want to thank you 20 for putting your life at risk and helping Dudley in that 21 way. 22 Going back to the point in time when some 23 of the -- yourself and other protesters made the split- 24 second decision to go and help what turned out to be 25 Cecil Bernard George; do you remember whether Dudley was
1491 part of the group near you at that time? 2 A: Well, I -- I would imagine so because 3 I believe everybody was -- was trying to figure out who - 4 - who they had out there at that time. And Dudley's -- 5 Dudley's name wasn't -- wasn't mentioned to be -- be that 6 person. 7 Q: Do you actually have a recollection 8 of Dudley being part of the discussion there? Do -- do 9 you remember whether -- 10 A: No, not really. I really ain't got no 11 sense of who -- who was really in it I guess. 12 Q: Is it fair to say from your 13 recollection of where people were at the time, compared 14 with where Dudley was later on that Dudley was part of 15 the group that left the Park to go help Cecil Bernard 16 George or the person who was being beaten? 17 A: Yes. I -- I believe it was -- it 18 might have been his sister that yelled out that -- that 19 it was Bernard. 20 Q: So is it fair to say that Dudley put 21 his life at risk to help someone else and died as a 22 result? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You said at one (1) point, if I 25 recall correctly, that at one (1) point, and I believe it
1501 was on Tuesday the 5th, that there was an exchange of 2 words between some of the protesters and some of the 3 police officers. And you sad that this exchange was 4 occurring from both sides and that none of it was really 5 positive. 6 And I believe you said something like, We 7 were hollering that this was our land. Is that -- is 8 that approximately what you were saying? 9 A: I -- I don't think it was me, it was 10 one of the other people on -- on our group. 11 Q: And is -- is it been your 12 recollection that some other people were yelling, This is 13 our land? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Who that was, I don't know. 17 Q: And were they standing just inside 18 the Park boundaries at that point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: We've heard evidence from other 21 witnesses that the Ipperwash Park lands were previously 22 part of the Stony Point Reserve. Did you have that 23 understanding as well? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25
1511 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Did you believe at that point on 4 September 4th, 5th and 6th that the Park lands were, in 5 fact, your lands, speaking as a group? 6 A: Well, can you repeat -- repeat that 7 question again? 8 Q: You've just described how some of the 9 other protestors were yelling from inside the Park that, 10 This is our land. 11 And you've said that it was your 12 understanding that the Park lands were formerly part of 13 the Stoney Point Reserve. 14 When you were protesting in the Park on 15 September 4th and 5th and 6th, was it, in fact, your 16 understanding that the Park lands were your lands? 17 A: I -- I really don't know how to -- 18 how to answer that. Is it -- it's my opinion that -- 19 Q: If you don't know how to answer it, 20 you don't have to. But if you want to, feel free. 21 A: Well, it's in my opinion that that -- 22 these people that -- that owned that Park, they -- they 23 had their chance to -- to keep it, you know. They had 24 their chance to fence off those graves probably more than 25 once, more than -- more than twice. And that hasn't been
1521 done. 2 Well, it's our -- and it's our duty to -- 3 to protect people, whether they -- they've passed on and 4 as well as the people in the future, meaning the future 5 generations. I guess for them to not -- not do the 6 proper thing is fencing off those graves, that -- that 7 they were completely ignorant of -- of our beliefs. 8 So that, I guess, to that extent, that we 9 would have to reclaim those lands to protect those 10 graves, yes. 11 Q: You've mentioned that you have some 12 recollection of Cecil Bernard George coming to the Park 13 on the afternoon or -- or evening of September 6, and 14 bringing some walkie-talkies; is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: There's been evidence that Cecil 17 Bernard George also brought a scanner, a radio scanner. 18 Do you have any knowledge about that? 19 A: I -- I knew we had a scanner there 20 that night, but I -- I thought that it was brought in by 21 another councillor from Kettle Point. And I -- Pete 22 Cloud was the name, I thought that -- that he was the one 23 that brought it. But I know for sure that Slippery did 24 bring the walkie-talkies. 25 Q: Did you the scanner or a radio
1531 scanner there? 2 A: I -- I'd seen the scanner. I 3 listened to it for a little while. 4 Q: Do you remember anything of what you 5 heard on the scanner? 6 A: Not -- not really, not on -- on the 7 scanner. 8 Q: Okay. Did -- I believe you said that 9 on the 4th, I believe, or the 5th of September, when you 10 got the phone call from Tina, that you spoke with your 11 father Abraham George to see whether he was interested in 12 going to the Park; is that right? 13 A: The 4th, yes. 14 Q: It was the 4th? And, do you know, he 15 since deceased; is that right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Did he pass away a few years ago? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And do you know, roughly, how old he 20 would have been at that time, in 1995, approximately? 21 A: He would have been roughly eighty 22 (80). Eighty (80), early -- early 80s. 23 Q: Early 80s. And he decided he did 24 want to go to the Park; is that right? 25 A: Oh, yeah. He -- well he -- I think he
1541 was happy. He -- he wanted to go, yes. 2 Q: You said he was happy to go? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Did he say anything about why he was 5 interested or happy to go? 6 A: Not really, he just -- he likes -- he 7 liked to be around them, the young guys. I guess he 8 wanted to -- to be nosey, I guess. 9 Q: Okay. Could you maybe lift up Exhibit 10 -- I'll give you the number in a second. It's the -- the 11 map by Mr. Thompson of the intersection that's now on the 12 floor, which is Exhibit -- one (1) moment. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-75. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 16 Q: I think it's Exhibit P-75. 17 Would you have a recollection of 18 approximately where Cecil Bernard George was at the time 19 that -- well, let me ask an explanatory question first. 20 Do you recall seeing the point at which 21 Cecil Bernard George was apprehended or arrested by 22 police officers? 23 A: No. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. I - 24 - I believe they got him at that first skirmish. I -- I 25 didn't know if they -- they had him until -- until I seen
1551 the -- the beating. Even at that time I didn't know it 2 was him until -- until the -- the head count was -- was 3 tooken. 4 Q: Were you aware that the police had 5 arrested somebody before the point in time where you saw 6 somebody being beaten and kicked? 7 A: No, I wasn't. 8 Q: Okay. All right. And finally, I 9 anticipate that we will be hearing or seeing some 10 evidence that on the early evening or thereabouts of 11 September 6 a non-native woman driving a car passed the 12 Park and her car was trashed by a group of natives using 13 baseball bats. 14 Do you have any knowledge about such an 15 incident? 16 A: None. None whatsoever. 17 Q: All right. Thank you again, Mr. 18 George. 19 A: You're welcome. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Mr. Klippenstein. Thank you. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 24 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. My name 25 is Jackie Esmonde, I'm here representing Aazhoodena and
1561 the George Family Group, which includes some of the 2 children of Dan and Melva George; I'm sure you know most 3 of them. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: I just have a few questions for you. 6 Firstly, about the picnic table incident 7 that you described to us earlier, I take it you didn't 8 hear the police say anything to you or others about 9 moving those picnic tables at that time? 10 A: Not -- not that I recall, no. 11 Q: They didn't give you any orders at 12 that time to go back into the Park? 13 A: Not -- not that I recall. I think 14 just ramming the tables was enough to go into the Park. 15 I -- I -- I'm unclear about that. 16 Q: Okay. So you saw them ram at least 17 one (1) table and I assume it moved the table? The 18 cruiser moved the table when it hit it? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And in what direction did it move it; 21 was it towards the Park? 22 A: It was in a -- it pushed it towards 23 the north, towards the lake. 24 Q: Towards the lake? 25 A: Yeah, it was coming from the south,
1571 the cruiser. 2 Q: Now, turning then, to the evening of 3 September 6th, the police -- when you told us the police 4 came down East Parkway Drive, did you at any point hear 5 them say anything to the protesters about going back into 6 the Park or staying in the Park? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you see any officer with a 9 megaphone? 10 A: Nope. 11 Q: Did you see an officer with any other 12 kind of sound amplification device? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Do you believe that you would have 15 heard the police if they would given an order to the 16 protesters? 17 A: I would think so. But again -- if 18 they did it -- it was possible that I wasn't in the Park 19 at that time. It might have been a previous -- previous 20 time during that day I myself know. 21 Q: So at no point during your time in 22 the Park did you hear the police give any order to the 23 protesters to stay in the Park? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Thank you very much, sir. I really
1581 appreciate your evidence. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. It's five (5) to 4:00. I suppose -- I was 4 going to say we could -- I suppose we have enough time if 5 we -- if you start, Mr. West. 6 Would you like to start? Do you think you 7 can finish in the time? You said about a half hour to 8 forty-five (45) minutes. I think we could -- we could do 9 it if you wanted to. 10 MR. PETER WEST: I can try. I can 11 certainly try. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because I 13 take it you would like to complete it. 14 MR. PETER WEST: I would like to complete 15 it. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well let's 17 give it a try. Let's give it a try. 18 Mr. West, on behalf of the OPP and Ms. 19 Jones on behalf of the OPPA, Mr. Downard on behalf of Mr. 20 Harris, Mr. Sulman on behalf of Mr. Beaubien is what we 21 have left. So we could, depending on how we do today, be 22 completed by tomorrow morning some time. 23 MR. PETER WEST: That's fine, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25
1591 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER WEST: 2 Q: Mr. George, my name is Peter West and 3 you heard Mr. Commissioner say that and I represent the 4 OPP. I only have five (5) areas that I want to ask you 5 questions about and, hopefully, we'll be able to finish 6 this before the end of today. 7 As I understood your evidence, sir, you 8 were not involved in occupiers moving onto the rifle 9 range in May of 1993? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And as I understand your evidence, 12 even though you weren't involved in that, you went to the 13 Park and visited there quite regularly? Not the Park. I 14 apologize. You visited the rifle range area quite 15 regularly? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest that 18 you were aware that the occupiers who moved into the 19 rifle range in May of 1993 did so because they believed 20 that they had a right to be on that land? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the same thing I'm going to 23 suggest to you would apply with respect to the Stoney 24 Pointers, as I'll call them, First Nations people that 25 moved onto the barracks in July 29th of 1995, they
1601 believed that they had from what you knew from talking to 2 these people who were friends of yours and family members 3 of yours, they believed they had a right again to be in 4 that area, on that land? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you 7 although you weren't involved in the decisions or the 8 discussions to move on Ipperwash Provincial Park on 9 September 4th, 1995, that was also done because of a 10 belief that the First Nations people, Stoney Pointers, 11 had a right to that land? 12 A: Our right to protect it, yes. 13 Q: And I understand in -- in both 14 instances there were, with respect to the Army Camp, all 15 of those lands there was burial grounds on those lands 16 that had not been respected, right? 17 A: You mean in the Park? 18 Q: There was -- I thought there was a 19 grave site close to the dump in the Army Camp? 20 A: Oh yeah. That's the newer one, yes. 21 Q: There was one there as well, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the same thing applied to the 24 Park. You had an uncle, as you understood it, your Uncle 25 Fletcher, who was buried in the Park?
1611 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And as I understand it this area that 3 you referred to as the sandy Parking lot, which is 4 immediately to the west and you can see it in -- in the 5 exhibit that's up on the -- before you there, just behind 6 you, which is P-75, I think. 7 That sandy Parking lot, which is just to 8 the west of the fence line of the Ipperwash Provincial 9 Park, there was a belief on the part of those who had 10 occupied the Park that that also was part of the lands 11 that the First Nations, Stoney Pointers, had a right to. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And in fact, as I understand it, those 14 lands extended -- the traditional territory included 15 right from the Kettle Point boundary right up to the 16 boundary of the Park along the beachfront. Right? 17 A: Right to -- right to -- Wally -- 18 Ravenswood Road. 19 Q: Ravenswood -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yes, Ravenwoods Road. Is that right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And similar beliefs were held 24 with respect to the area that's to the east of the Park. 25 Do you know an area called the Port Franks area? We
1621 haven't talked about that. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 4 similar beliefs were held with respect to the right of 5 Stoney Pointer First Nations people to be on that land. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Now -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, had 9 you answered the question? He said, Yes? 10 MR. PETER WEST: He said "Yes." 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 12 MR. PETER WEST: Thank you. Thank you, 13 Mr. Commissioner. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER WEST: 16 Q: Now, sir, while you were visiting the 17 occupiers as you've told us either on a weekly basis or 18 sometimes every two (2) weeks from the years of May of 19 1993 up until July of 1995 in this rifle range area 20 where, as I understand it, there were trailers set up. 21 I think your father had a trailer in 22 there? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And is this also the area that Dudley 25 George had a trailer?
1631 A: Yes, right in the same. 2 Q: All right. And I'm going to suggest 3 to you at no time for that two (2) year -- more than two 4 (2) year period did the OPP attempt to remove any of the 5 occupiers from that area, to your knowledge? 6 A: Other than my brother Stewart for 7 being arrested, they were there to remove him. That's 8 all. Other than that, no. 9 Q: All right. I mean, they -- they lived 10 there for that whole period of time? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: People could come and go as they -- as 13 they pleased. Right? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you the 16 same thing, although you didn't live in the built-up 17 area, from July 29th, 1995 to -- through until September 18 the 4th, 1995, at no time did the OPP attempt to remove 19 the occupiers who had taken over the barracks? 20 A: Not that I believe, no. 21 Q: All right. And as I understand your 22 evidence, you didn't stay long enough on September the 23 4th into the late hours of that night to -- do you know 24 who Vince George is? I'll ask it that way first. 25 A: Yes, I do.
1641 Q: And did you ever see Vince George come 2 to the Ipperwash Provincial Park in the late hours of 3 September the 4th, into the early morning hours of 4 September the 5th, and try to serve some papers? 5 A: No, I didn't. 6 Q: All right. You -- I'm going to 7 suggest you would have heard about that when you went 8 back to Ipperwash Provincial Park the next day? 9 A: I -- I -- I think I might have heard 10 that he was there with some kind of paper. Whether or 11 not -- what they were, I don't know. 12 Q: I understand. And that he was there 13 with MNR, Ministry of Natural Resource officials? 14 A: I -- I don't know. 15 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest for 16 the times that you were in the Park on -- between 17 September the 4th to September the 6th, other than the 18 occasion when your brother, Roderick George, smashed the 19 back of the police cruiser, when he was telling the 20 police they were to get off -- and get off -- out of the 21 Park because it was First Nations' land, there was no 22 time that you, personally, saw an OPP officer on Park 23 property between those dates -- September 4th to 24 September 6th? 25 A: Other than on the 4th in the Park when
1651 me and my -- my dad and my girlfriend was there on -- on 2 the -- on the 4th, they were in the Park, yes. 3 Q: That's why -- I said that. Other than 4 the occasion when Roderick -- 5 A: No, I -- I haven't seen them. 6 Q: You didn't see them, right? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, you weren't 9 part of any of the discussions in the weeks leading up to 10 September the 4th that Ipperwash Provincial Park was 11 going to be taken over by the occupiers who had taken 12 over the Army Camp? 13 A: I didn't hear of no discussions, no. 14 Q: All right. And the first you became 15 aware of it, as I recall your evidence, was when your 16 sister Tina called you at Kettle Point? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And told you -- basically, they were 19 asking you and your father if you wanted to come? 20 A: Asked me if I -- I would ask my dad 21 if he would like to go down, yes. 22 Q: All right. Were you aware that -- 23 and you don't know exactly what time you would have 24 arrived or would have received this call? Sometime in 25 the early evening, when it was still --
1661 A: Early evening, late -- late 2 afternoon, yes. 3 Q: Right. When it's still light 4 outside? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you you 7 got to Ipperwash Provincial Park with your father when it 8 was still light outside? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Were you aware that some trees 11 had been cut down along Matheson Drive which would 12 prevent passage? 13 A: Oh, yeah, I believe -- I believe so. 14 That -- that's where I -- I was getting a little mixed 15 up. I couldn't remember in my statement whether those 16 trees were down or not. So that's why I was unsure of -- 17 of which way I got into the Park, whether it was from the 18 west side or -- or from the -- 19 Q: East side? 20 A: Well, the -- the south side. 21 Q: I understand what you mean. I think 22 the -- we haven't heard the evidence at the Inquiry. 23 There will be some evidence that there was observations 24 of trees being cut down around 5:50 in the afternoon, 25 late afternoon, on September the 4th, onto Matheson
1671 Drive. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Were you aware of an incident between 4 your two (2) brothers Stewart and Roderick George with 5 police officers up at the -- the east side of the Park, 6 at the top end of Matheson Drive, just before the beach 7 area? 8 A: I've heard about it. 9 Q: All right. You obviously weren't 10 there -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- you heard about it; right? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 15 you it's -- that happens around 4:07. And it's after 16 that that there's the first movement into the Park by 17 some First Nations' people, when they're going to try to 18 break the lock with a tire iron and then, ultimately, 19 some other individuals come along with a -- with a bolt 20 cutter of some sort and the -- the lock is actually cut. 21 When you get there the lock is already cut 22 on the gate? 23 A: Well, it was open. I don't know -- 24 Q: You don't know how; I understand. 25 You were aware that dumpsters had been put in front of
1681 some of these gate areas to prevent access? 2 A: The one in -- in the Park, I -- I 3 think might have had the bin in front of it then but I'm 4 not too sure. 5 Q: All right. You talked about the 6 dumpster that was, I guess, over on the west side of the 7 -- of the Park, that was put out where the gate comes in 8 from the sandy Parking lot. And we talked about how the 9 bus -- 10 A: Well, on -- on the -- when me and my 11 father were there, I don't think there was a -- a 12 dumpster on the main entrance of the Park because that -- 13 that's where the cruisers had to come in to the Park. 14 Q: Okay. Do you know when those 15 dumpster got put in place? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: All right. When did you first see 18 them there; was it on the 6th? 19 A: To my recollection, I -- I don't 20 remember them being put there on the 5th, but -- but I 21 know they were in -- in the entrances on the 6th. 22 Q: On the 6th, okay. And were you aware 23 -- when you -- when you arrived at the Park with your 24 father sometime in the early evening, late afternoon of 25 September the 4th, that there were still day Park
1691 visitors within the Park? Were you aware of that? 2 A: No, I didn't see any -- I didn't see 3 anybody like -- like that. All's I seen was Natives when 4 -- when we -- we got there. 5 Q: When you got there, okay. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: So you didn't see the police 8 escorting day Park visitors -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- out of the Park after the First 11 Nations people -- 12 A: That -- that would probably have been 13 before we -- we arrived. 14 Q: All right. I think you've told us 15 this, you were aware that a fire, a sacred fire, was 16 built beside the Park store? 17 A: I -- I was aware of it by -- by 18 hearsay. 19 Q: And were you aware of other fires 20 being set and lit in different places within the -- 21 within the Park, one (1) down on the beach for example, 22 and -- 23 A: On the 4th? 24 Q: On the 4th or even the 5th? 25 A: Well, I -- I think we had a fire on
1701 the 5th when we were near the fence. And -- and, again, 2 I really ain't too sure about that, but I believe we did. 3 Q: Okay. And we've some evidence, Mr. 4 George, that you've talked about this -- sort of this 5 military side road that runs parallel to the Army Camp 6 Road with the fence in between -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- that goes north/south? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And you know that at the top end of 11 the army camp property there's a fence that runs along 12 Matheson Drive? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 15 we heard some evidence yesterday that one (1) of the ways 16 that access could be gained from the army camp and this 17 military side road into Ipperwash Provincial Park is that 18 that fence was knocked down, cut down, however, but, 19 there was an opening through that fence that was made? 20 Do you remember that? 21 A: I -- I think, I'm not too sure but I 22 think that's how -- how we got into the Park then. 23 Q: Thank you. Now this incident with 24 your brother Roderick George, you remember him having a 25 long stick?
1711 A: Well -- 2 Q: This was on September 4th I'm talking 3 about now. 4 A: It wouldn't be real long. It wasn't 5 short. 6 Q: All right. We've it described as a 7 walking stick. Would that -- would that be the way that 8 you would describe it? 9 A: To the length, yeah. 10 Q: You couldn't describe it that way? 11 A: It wouldn't be any more than four (4) 12 feet. 13 Q: And it was -- he basically told the 14 police that they had, I think as you said -- maybe you 15 didn't say this, maybe I read this, but twenty (2) 16 seconds to leave and after ten (10) seconds that's when 17 he smashed the back window. 18 A: At one point, yes. 19 Q: Is that -- is that you what recall? 20 A: I -- I -- they had an exchange of 21 words. I can't recall what they were, but, that was the 22 reason why instead of the twenty (20) seconds, he cut it 23 down to ten (10). 24 Q: I understand. And Roderick's 25 position was that this land was First Nation land and the
1721 police had to leave. 2 A: That they were trespassing I believe. 3 Q: Yes. And do you remember the officer 4 perhaps indicating to Roderick, and the other First 5 Nations people who were around, that really that you 6 didn't have a right to be on the land because it was a 7 provincial Park. 8 Do you remember that being sort of the 9 discussion between the two (2) groups? 10 A: Not really. I -- I don't think there 11 really was a great deal of discussion at that time. 12 Q: Okay. Police left right after the 13 window got broken? 14 A: Pretty much, yes. 15 Q: Okay. And then after that other than 16 Vince George, which you weren't present for, no other OPP 17 officer ever came into the Park? 18 A: Not that I know. 19 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 20 you, in addition to the OPP officers on September the 4th 21 that were present, there were also some Ministry of 22 Natural Resource individuals present. 23 Did you see those person there? They 24 all -- 25 A: On when?
1731 Q: On the 4th, when this incident 2 happens with the back window of the police cruiser being 3 smashed? 4 A: I'm not too sure. I didn't take 5 notice of them but I did notice the police. 6 Q: Okay. You told us about this 7 incident with the picnic tables. Ultimately, picnic 8 tables were put in a circle and a fire was built in the 9 centre on the sandy parking lot? Were you aware of that? 10 A: At some time, yeah, I did hear about 11 that. Well, I seen the video of it. 12 Q: All right. And there was also a tent 13 or something put up in the centre of those picnic tables 14 by the fire? 15 A: I can't recall. 16 Q: Don't recall that? And I'm going to 17 suggest you probably didn't see this because you didn't 18 arrive on September the 6th until sort of late afternoon, 19 four o'clock I think you indicated. 20 But early in the morning on September the 21 6th, those picnic tables were removed by the police? 22 A: I heard something about it, yes. 23 Q: And they came in with a flatbed 24 trailer of some sort and loaded up the picnic tables onto 25 the --
1741 A: I don't know. 2 Q: You don't know the details of that? 3 I'm going to suggest to you that when the altercation 4 happened between the police and I think, as you've 5 indicated, it was your brother Stewart George and 6 Nicholas who were carrying the picnic table out into the 7 parking lot when the police cruiser came up? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And so it's not as if somebody was 10 sitting on the picnic table, they were carrying it out I 11 guess to bring it -- 12 A: Yeah, they were. 13 Q: -- and to put it into a circle? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 16 what happened is that as a result of the cruiser hitting 17 that picnic table, First Nations people began to throw 18 rocks at the police cruisers; do you remember that? 19 A: Well, that's when -- I -- I don't know 20 if -- really recall if there was a -- a great deal of 21 stone throwing before that, but I know there was a great 22 deal of stone throwing after the ramming of the picnic 23 tables, yes. 24 Q: Okay. All right. And do you remember 25 some -- in terms of this incident, there were other
1751 police cruisers that came upon the first police cruiser 2 that was there and ultimately the First Nations people 3 went back into the Park? 4 A: I -- I believe so. I really can't 5 remember, but there -- there was the one (1) there and I 6 would imagine there would have been -- been more. 7 Q: All right. And then I'm going to 8 suggest the police left and you may not have been 9 involved in this, but you were aware that ultimately 10 tables were put into a circle? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And were you advised when the 13 police came to remove the tables on the morning of 14 September 6th, that there had been some First Nations 15 people in that area and when the police came, they went 16 back into the Park as well? 17 A: Again, I seen a video of it and 18 recognized Dudley as the one (1) individual in that 19 video. 20 Q: Yes. Now, I think as you -- I've got 21 one (1) other thing to ask you. Were you aware that on 22 September the 6th, that -- this will be in the late 23 afternoon/early evening -- that women and children were 24 being moved from the Park back into the Army Camp? 25 A: I wasn't aware of it, no.
1761 Q: You weren't aware of that? 2 A: No. 3 Q: We've heard some evidence here that 4 that's what -- that's what was happening in the sort of 5 late afternoon/early evening. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 7 I'm not sure that we heard that -- exactly that evidence. 8 MR. PETER WEST: I understood that 9 Stewart George agreed with my suggestion -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 11 MR. PETER WEST: -- yesterday. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: My 13 recollection was people were moved back, but not to the 14 Camp. Is that right? I'm not sure. 15 MR. PETER WEST: That's -- that's what I 16 put to Stewart George yesterday. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And he 18 agreed with it? 19 MR. PETER WEST: And he agreed with it is 20 my recollection. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER WEST: 23 Q: I'm just asking if you were aware of 24 that, sir, and I think you've indicated you weren't 25 aware; is that what you've understood?
1771 A: No, I wasn't, but, you know, it could 2 be possible that -- that maybe -- maybe they had to get 3 ready for school or something. 4 Q: Maybe or -- 5 A: There's such a thing as bedtime, too, 6 or -- or, you know, it could be a possibility of anything 7 or a -- or a quantity of things. You know, I -- I don't 8 know. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: I wasn't aware of it, no. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, there 12 was definitely evidence the women and children were 13 removed. 14 MR. PETER WEST: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's no 16 question about -- the question of where they were taken. 17 MR. PETER WEST: Yes, I put to -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I'm not 19 arguing with you. Carry on. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER WEST: 22 Q: And I think there's evidence that they 23 -- after September the 6th, into September 7th, they were 24 removed from the Army Camp back to, I think, Kettle 25 Point. A: Well, on -- on --
1781 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But the evidence was - 2 - 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: But that's a bit 4 overstating it. With -- with -- excuse me -- 5 MR. PETER WEST: Yeah. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With all fairness, we 7 know that we've heard evidence that there were women and 8 children still in the Park that night -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: So I think it's 11 overstating it to say that they were all removed. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The evidence actually 13 is -- and perhaps my Friend has it, but the question was 14 asked: 15 "Are you aware of whether there was 16 ever any decision made that -- that 17 evening of September 6th that all of 18 the women and children should leave?" 19 Answer -- and this is on Page 112 -- 20 answer: 21 "Yeah, when -- when -- when the police 22 were coming down the road, I think that 23 the women and children were supposed to 24 have gone up to the barracks because 25 that's where I thought Leland had
1791 gone." 2 And question: 3 "And to you knowledge there were still 4 women and children in the Park at the 5 time Mr. Dudley George was shot?" 6 Answer: 7 "I don't know whose children, but I 8 think that Darlene -- there was a girl 9 called Darlene in there in the Park. I 10 think that's the only woman that we 11 knew of had been there." 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That was the evidence 14 of Mr. George. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 MR. PETER WEST: That -- that was my 17 understanding as well. 18 THE WITNESS: Well, Slippery's sister was 19 there also, so I don't know. Might have -- maybe it was 20 of their own decision. I -- I don't know. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER WEST: 23 Q: I -- I understand. I -- I'm not 24 trying to -- to trick you, Mr. George. We've also heard 25 some evidence that when Cecil Bernard George came into
1801 the Park in the afternoon of September the 6th, I think 2 you were asked by one (1) of the witnesses. 3 The evidence we've heard is that he 4 brought not only the walkie-talkies radios, the two-way 5 radios, he also brought a scanner, and that there was 6 some conversation by Cecil Bernard George that he had 7 overhead on the police scanner that the police were 8 massing. 9 And I don't know if -- if you were privy 10 to hearing that information from Cecil Bernard George. 11 Were you aware that -- that he was -- 12 A: By -- by mouth or by walkie-talkie? 13 Q: Either -- either by him telling you 14 personally or you hearing from someone else in the Park, 15 a First Nations person, that Cecil Bernard George had 16 overhead something like that, or somebody had overheard 17 that on the scanner? 18 A: Well, not to my knowledge, not on the 19 scanner. Only thing I could recollect, that what -- 20 you're going to be -- remotely the same is -- is when he 21 -- his sort of recon thing -- 22 Q: Yes, that's later. 23 A: -- that's the only -- only time, 24 like -- 25 Q: That's you're aware of anything?
1811 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And I'm -- I'm suggesting 3 something that happened much earlier than that? 4 A: I don't -- 5 Q: You weren't aware of that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. I think you've already told us 8 that you became of aware after you arrived in the late 9 afternoon, early evening of September the 6th, that there 10 was an increased police presence? 11 A: Yes. That was by word-of-mouth by -- 12 by people, visitors coming into the Park was -- would 13 tell. 14 Q: Yes. And I think as you indicated, I 15 mean, we heard from your brother Stewart that there were 16 primitive -- perimeter rides around the Army Camp 17 property. You've told us what you understood the reason, 18 it was one of your suggestions, that, We should make them 19 think that there's more of us here and there's more 20 people coming in. 21 And your brother Stewart talked about the 22 fact that they were looking to see exactly what perhaps 23 what the police were doing. 24 A: Well, at that time, I -- I said I 25 decided, at that point it would have been done, it would
1821 have been dark at that time. As far as the perimeter 2 checks go, I myself, personally, I didn't hear of anybody 3 doing perimeter checks. That might have been something 4 that -- that individuals took up on their own to do. 5 Q: I think that was Stewart's evidence, 6 is that a number of people took that up on their own and 7 were doing it; you didn't know about that? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. And even I'm going to suggest 10 to you that in the early evening of September the 6th, 11 there was a belief within the First Nations people in the 12 Park that the police were going to do something? 13 A: Well, again, the -- the buildup just 14 simply -- the -- the presence of -- of the police were 15 greatly increased compared to earlier that afternoon. 16 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that that 17 created concern within the Park and the First Nations 18 people in the Park that something was going to happen 19 that night? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 22 you that, as you've already told us, after the incident 23 involving the picnic table in the evening of September 24 the 5th, First Nations people within the Park started 25 carrying, as you've described them, clubs and sticks?
1831 A: I don't know about the evening of the 2 5th, but, well, it was noticed more. It was more 3 noticeable, people carrying clubs on the evening of the 4 6th. 5 Q: When you went back? 6 A: When -- when the -- when presence of 7 the police were -- were noticeable. 8 Q: Were increasing; I understand. And - 9 - and, just so that I understand, I understood your 10 evidence-in-chief was that there was collection of rocks 11 and stones, and that there's was stone-throwing that 12 started in response to the incident with the picnic 13 tables in the sandy Parking on the -- on the evening of 14 September the 5th? 15 A: Yes, there was. 16 Q: All right. So that when police 17 cruisers would drive by Army Camp Road or wherever, if 18 they came close to the Park, First Nations people would 19 be throwing rocks at them? 20 A: Well, again, I -- I don't -- I don't 21 think everybody did that. Certain -- certain 22 individuals, nobody was told to do that. When it was 23 done, it was done by the individuals themselves. 24 Q: I understand. I understand. But you 25 -- you saw it happening, and you've told us that?
1841 A: Yeah. I believe I seen one of my 2 boys throw a rock, a couple of them, maybe three (3), 3 maybe more. 4 Q: Okay. And I want to ask you about an 5 occasion and ask whether you were part of this group of 6 First Nations persons between 6:30 and 7:00 p.m. on 7 September the 6th who were standing around the sandy 8 Parking lot, about half of them with clubs or sticks in 9 their hands. And the other half with nothing in their 10 hands. Were you aware of that and them being approached 11 by a car? 12 A: Gerald George? 13 Q: I'm sorry? 14 A: Gerald George's car? 15 Q: No. Not -- not -- not Gerald 16 George's car. That's a -- that's a earlier incident. 17 This is later in the evening. 18 A: I don't -- no, I don't. 19 Q: You're not aware of that? 20 A: I don't know what you're -- you're 21 talking about, no. 22 Q: And in terms of Gerald George, you 23 only heard about Gerald George; you were not present when 24 that happened? 25 A: Yeah. I just heard about it.
1851 Q: I think you've told us about the 2 movement of the vehicles going back and forth between the 3 Park and the Army Camp in the evening of September the 4 6th? 5 A: Well, again, all through the day. 6 All through the previous day. People were in and out of 7 the Park all -- all the time. 8 Q: I understand. But I think you 9 indicated in your evidence-in-chief that there was a -- 10 an increase and that as a -- as a result of a suggestion 11 by yourself. That was what you testified to that when 12 you got there after four o'clock, that's when more cars 13 started going back and forth between the Park and the 14 Army Camp, the barracks. 15 A: It wasn't -- it wasn't my suggestion 16 altogether. It was kind of suggested by Robert Isaac. 17 To me that -- I guess it just, by word-of-mouth, that's 18 what happened. 19 Q: And that's what started to happen? 20 A: yeah. 21 Q: I understand. And I think you've 22 told us there was a dump truck that was moving back and 23 forth between the Park and the Army Camp, the barracks? 24 A: Yeah. Glenn George was -- was doing 25 something. I don't think it was in the Park but he -- he
1861 would drop -- he would drop by in the Park and that's 2 what he was driving. So -- so that's the reason why the 3 dump truck was there. 4 Q: Do you remember there being people in 5 the back of the dump truck? 6 A: I don't recall. 7 Q: Moving between the Park and the 8 barracks? 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: You didn't know about that? And were 11 you aware that the bus was moving between the Park and 12 the barracks? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: No, weren't aware of that either? 15 A: No. I just knew that the bus was in 16 the Park. I didn't see it travelling. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And on the evening of September the 21 6th, as I understand your evidence, was the incident with 22 your brother Stewart's dog; right? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Which you didn't see, but you heard a 25 dog yelping?
1871 A: Yeah, that's all. 2 Q: And you heard as I understood and 3 I've read some of your previous testimony, you heard your 4 brother Stewart say he was going to go find out what had 5 happened and he asked for a stick and -- and he went out 6 by himself. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And that's when I think there was an 9 indication the discussion, I think you called this a sort 10 of split second decision, that, We're, we better go out 11 with Stewart, he shouldn't be out there by himself? 12 A: No. That would be a split second 13 decision would have come along before the second 14 confrontation. That was when Bernard was getting beaten. 15 Q: No, I understand that. But I'm 16 talking about the dog incident now. When Stewart went 17 out by himself I understood from your previous testimony, 18 and I thought what you said here as well, is that a bunch 19 of you went out to provide support for Stewart, that he 20 shouldn't be out there by himself. 21 A: Yeah. Because he -- it was only one 22 -- one guy against -- 23 Q: One of him and -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- and thirty (30) or forty (40) of
1881 the CMU, right? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And as I understand your evidence, 4 the 5 Crowd Management Unit charged towards the -- 6 A: They rushed us, yes. 7 Q: -- rushed you guys, right? And you 8 went back into the Park? 9 A: Yeah, we went back in over the fence, 10 yes. 11 Q: And it's -- 12 A: I believe that was when they -- I -- 13 I never seen it actually happen, but I believe that is 14 when they got Bernard -- 15 Q: Cecil? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Right? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: All right. I understand. Indulge us 20 for a moment, Mr. Commissioner -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Certainly. 22 MR. PETER WEST: -- I think I'm finished. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Certainly. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1891 MR. PETER WEST: Thank you, Mr. 2 Commissioner, those are all my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much, Mr. West. I think that's it. I think we 5 should call it a day right now. We'll start tomorrow 6 morning at ten o'clock with Ms. Jones on behalf of the 7 OPPA. Is that all right? Yes? We'll start at ten 8 o'clock in the morning. Thank you very much everybody. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I think 10 tomorrow is Thursday. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, right. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we normally start 13 at 9:00 -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and go to 3:30 so. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that all 17 right with everybody? Start at 9:00 and finish 3:30? 18 All right. Until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 20 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, November 4th at 9:00 21 a.m. 22 23 --- Upon adjourning at 4:30 p.m. 24 25
1901 2 Certified Correct 3 4 5 6 7 __________________________ 8 Wendy Warnock 9 Court Reporter 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25