11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 2nd, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 21 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Ian Smith ) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np) Marcel Beaubien 17 Mary Jane Moynahan )(np) 18 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 19 Trevor Hinnegan ) 20 21 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 22 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) (np) Ontario Provincial Police 23 Leslie Kaufman ) 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 3 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 4 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 5 Ian McGilp ) (np) 6 Annie Leeks ) (np) 7 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 8 Robyn Trask ) 9 10 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 11 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 12 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 13 Julian Roy ) 14 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 15 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 16 17 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 18 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 19 20 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 21 Matthew Horner ) (np) 22 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 3 Craig Mills ) (np) 4 Megan Mackey ) (np) 5 Erin Tully ) 6 7 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 8 Anna Perschy ) 9 Melissa Panjer ) 10 Adam Goodman ) (np) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 7 4 5 KATHRYN JAMIE HUNT, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 9 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Smith 101 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 110 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Anna Perschy 120 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Kim Twohig 128 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 131 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 170 13 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 178 14 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 180 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-927 Curriculum Vitae of Kathryn Jamie Hunt. 10 4 P-928 Document number 1000913. Agenda: IMC 5 Meeting, September 05/'95. 44 6 P-929 Document Number 1003521. Fax message 7 from Dave Moran to Kathryn Hunt attaching 8 handwritten briefing note: Ipperwash 9 Prov. Park, Sept. 07/'95. 81 10 P-930 Document Number 1011585. MSGCS Issue 11 Note, Version number 1, Issue: 12 Ministerial Role re. OPP Operational 13 Matters, Sept. 06/'95, 10:30 A.M. 88 14 P-931 Document Number 1001561. Letter to 15 Robert Runciman from the Hon. Herb Gray, 16 Sept. 08/'95. 96 17 P-932 Document Number 1001204. Letter to the 18 Hon. Herb Gray from Robert Runciman 19 September 19/'95. 97 20 P-933 Document Number 1001563. Letter to 21 The Hon. Herb Gray to Robert Runciman. 22 October 03/'95. 98 23 P-934 Document Number 1001147. Managing 24 Aboriginal Relations During the Ipperwash 25 Incident, undated 166
81 EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 CORRECTIONS ON PRIOR EXHIBITS: 4 P-870 Document No. 1007944. Email re: 5 Emergency water supply for Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park from J. Kolodziej to 7 L. Kobayashi, August 02/'95 8 P-874 Document No. 1010263. E-mail to L. 9 Kobayashi from Rob Burnett re: 10 Building locations - Ipperwash 11 August, '95 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
91 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The Commission calls 11 as its witness Kathryn Hunt. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning, Ms. Hunt. 14 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Ms. Hunt. 15 MS. KATHRYN HUNT: Good morning. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prefer to swear on 17 the Bible, affirm or use an alternate oath. 18 MS. KATHRYN HUNT: The Bible. 19 20 KATHRYN JAMIE HUNT, Sworn 21 22 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Ms. Hunt, in front of you is a copy 24 of a curriculum vitae that you prepared for us; is that a 25 copy of your CV?
101 A: Yes, it is. 2 3 Q: Perhaps we could mark that as the 4 next exhibit, Commissioner. It would be P-927. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-927: Curriculum Vitae of Kathryn 8 Jamie Hunt. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And I understand that you obtained a 12 Honours BA in History and Political Science from Queen's 13 University in 1985? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: And you obtained a Masters in Library 16 Science from the University of Toronto in 1987? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And from 1987 to 1988, you were an 19 information specialist with the Canadian Imperial Bank of 20 Commerce Information Centre in Toronto? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And from 1988 to 1994 you were a 23 Senior Policy Analyst with the Progressive Conservative 24 Research part of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario? 25 A: Yes.
111 Q: And can you just tell the 2 Commissioner a little bit about your position with, I 3 think it's called PC Research? 4 A: Yes. Each political party is 5 provided with funding in order to have staff to do 6 research in assistance to members of the -- the political 7 party for which they work. 8 And so I did background papers and worked 9 on questions for Question Period, helped members with 10 preparation for legislation and amendments to 11 legislation. 12 Q: And did you have any particular areas 13 that you concentrated on? 14 A: Yes, education and housing, and 15 culture and citizenship. 16 Q: And did you work exclusively in those 17 areas? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I understand, as well, that 1994 20 to 1995 you were Executive Assistant to the Honourable 21 Ernie Eves when he was House Leader? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And starting in June 1995 to December 24 1998 you were the Executive Assistant to Robert Runciman? 25 A: Yes.
121 Q: And at the time Mr. Runciman was the 2 Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the -- we know that the 5 Government was elected in June of 1995 and was sworn in 6 on June 26th, 1995. When did you become Mr. Runciman's 7 executive assistant? 8 A: Shortly after the swearing in. It 9 was either the last week of June or the first week of 10 July. 11 Q: And can you describe for the 12 Commissioner, generally, your role as an executive 13 assistant? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Originally I was involved with the 19 Minister in hiring staff to work in the Minister's 20 office. And in addition to that we had issue management 21 process where we reviewed various issues for the Ministry 22 every morning; the communications function for the 23 Minister's speeches, news releases, public appearances. 24 And in addition to that we began working 25 on the policy work for the Ministry based on commitments
131 that the party had made both for the Common Sense 2 Revolution and in opposition. 3 Q: And the -- as part of your role, 4 initially, why -- you assisted in assembling the 5 Minister's staff? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that involved hiring other 8 political aides for the Minister? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And the -- you referred to the 11 Commonsense Revolution, and at the inside of your book 12 there's a copy of Exhibit P-922; is that what you're 13 referring to? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And for the benefit of you, 16 Commissioner, and My Friends this copy of The Common 17 Sense Revolution was downloaded actually by me from the 18 website of the Conservative Party of Ontario. 19 And the -- with respect to The Common 20 Sense Revolution -- and how did it affect the work that 21 you did initially as Mr. Runciman's executive assistant? 22 A: Actually there isn't a great deal in 23 that document about policing and corrections other than a 24 commitment to maintain funding in -- in those areas, but 25 there were other commitments at that time that we were
141 working on. 2 The cancellation of photo radar was one 3 (1) of the very first policy initiatives. And there were 4 some commitments with regards to police oversight so we 5 began work on a new Police Act. 6 Q: And with respect to The Common Sense 7 Revolution as I read it there -- there does not appear to 8 be any section that deals with or is directed to 9 Aboriginal people; is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And was that your understanding? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you'll find in your book, two (2) 14 other documents -- one is Exhibit P-924, Bringing Common 15 Sense to Community Development, which we understand was a 16 campaign, internal campaign piece. 17 Did you have anything to do with the 18 preparation of this document? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And did you see this document prior 21 to preparing for your appearance here? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And in what -- how did you come to 24 see the document? 25 A: You showed me the document in
151 preparation for today. In addition, I -- I believe I 2 would have seen the document prior to 1995; there were a 3 series of papers that were prepared. 4 Q: And they were prepared by the 5 Research Department? 6 A: Yes, in consultation with Mr. Harris' 7 office and his staff. 8 Q: And -- but you believe you may have 9 seen this document and the document, A Voice for the 10 North, January 1995 simply as part of that? You didn't 11 work on either one of them? 12 A: No I did not. 13 Q: Now, when -- as Mr. Runciman's 14 Executive Assistant, I take it, as you said you reported 15 to the Minister. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what relationship if any, did you 18 have with the Deputy Minister and the Deputy Minister 19 became Elaine Todres? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And can you describe for the 22 Commissioner, the relationship between you and the 23 Minister and the Deputy Minister in terms of reporting? 24 A: Yes. I reported to the Minister, but 25 I also liaised with the Deputy Minister and her staff on
161 an ongoing basis as we were moving forward on policy and 2 issue management. The Deputy Minister would also come to 3 me or she would go directly to the Minister. 4 Q: And what about the Premier's office? 5 A: I did work with staff over at the 6 Premier's office; mostly Deb Hutton in her role as Issue 7 Management, Paul Rhodes for Communications, and Guy 8 Giorno as the Premier's Senior Policy Advisor. 9 Q: And when you say you worked with 10 them, did you report to them or I think your word was 11 'liaise' with them. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And what do you mean by "liaise with 14 them." 15 A: Well, as we're preparing submissions 16 to bring forward to Cabinet or the committees of Cabinet, 17 we would work with them as issues emerged. In the 18 public, we might consult with Debbie Hutton's office in 19 terms of how those issues would be managed. 20 Q: Okay. And what about the Cabinet 21 office? Did you have any -- what relationship, if any, 22 did you have with the Cabinet office? 23 A: I didn't have a direct relationship. 24 It's not -- always my understanding that the Deputy 25 Minister went to the Cabinet office.
171 Q: Cabinet office. And in 1995, the 2 Cabinet office, the Secretary of Cabinet was Rita Burak? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Now, as I understand it, after the 5 Minister was appointed and you're appointed, the new 6 Government and new Ministers received briefings; is that 7 correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner 10 from your experience, what -- what the briefings 11 consisted of? 12 A: Binders of information were prepared 13 for the Minister; binders of this size. 14 Q: You're referring to the document 15 book? 16 A: Yes. And it had to do with all of 17 the different responsibilities of the Ministry, 18 legislation, various government bodies such as the Parole 19 Board and the stakeholders of the Ministry and how the 20 Ministry function. 21 Q: And did you receive a -- who 22 conducted those, or attended the briefings? 23 A: It's my recollection that the Deputy 24 Minister attended and some of the Deputy Minister's 25 staff, members of our legal branch and members of the
181 Policy Unit. 2 Q: And did you receive a briefing with 3 respect to the relationship between the Minister of the 4 Solicitor General and the police? 5 A: Yes, I did. 6 Q: And from whom did you receive that 7 briefing? 8 A: I believe it was the Ministry's legal 9 department. 10 Q: And was there a particular person 11 that you recall? 12 A: I recall Anne McChesney. 13 Q: And that's M-C, capital C-H-E-S-N-E- 14 Y? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And she was a member of the Solicitor 17 General's legal department? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And as such, she was actually a 20 member -- a lawyer with the Ministry of the Attorney 21 General that seconded to the Solicitor General's 22 department? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And can you tell us what you were 25 told or what you understood as a result of what you were
191 told of the relationship between the Solicitor General 2 and the police, and, in particular, the Ontario 3 Provincial Police? 4 A: Yes, that there can be no 5 interferences in -- to the day-to-day operations of the 6 OPP. We also were briefed on how we would interact with 7 the Deputy Minister's Office and the Deputy Minister's 8 staff. 9 Barb Taylor was a member of the OPP and 10 she was assigned to the Deputy Minister's office, so that 11 if we had questions of a policy nature for the OPP, we 12 would go to the Deputy Minister's office to place that 13 question and then the -- the OPP Officer would do the 14 direct contact to the OPP. 15 Q: And so that in your capacity as an 16 executive assistant, did you have any direct contact with 17 the Ontario Provincial Police? 18 A: No, I dealt with members of the OPP 19 who worked in the Deputy Minister's office. 20 Q: Okay. And the -- I've placed in 21 front of you a yellow folder. It's just to left, Ms. 22 Hunt. And inside it there's a copy of Exhibit P-578. 23 It's Ministerial Control and the Ontario Provincial 24 Police; a discussion paper. 25 Prior to my showing this document to you
201 in preparation for your appearance here today, had you 2 seen this document before? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And the -- as well, there's a copy of 5 a document, P-579. It's entitled, Ministry of Community 6 Safety and Correctional Services. And had you seen, 7 prior to meeting with me, had you seen this document 8 before? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And when you left the -- your 11 position as executive assistant in December 1978, as I 12 understand -- 13 A: '98. 14 Q: 1998, excuse me. As I understand it, 15 the department was still called the Ministry of the 16 Solicitor General and -- or Solicitor General and 17 Minister of Correctional Services? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: So, that Exhibit P-579 came after 20 your time in government? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Now, as part of your briefings, were
211 you given any briefing with respect to First Nations 2 policing? 3 A: Yes, there was a briefing, as I 4 recall, but Ron Fox would have been involved in providing 5 an OP -- an overview of the OPP police contracts. And 6 there were a number of contracts that, over the four (4) 7 years I was there, that were negotiated and brought 8 forward to management board for funding. 9 Q: And did -- do you know a per -- an 10 individual by the name of Scott Patrick? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And was -- did Scott Patrick 13 participate in the briefings? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what was your understanding in 16 the summer of 1995 of the role of Ron Fox and Scott 17 Patrick? 18 A: That their role was to deal with the 19 OPP contracts that -- with the First Nations people, in 20 terms of policing. 21 Q: In term -- and what -- were they 22 active police officers or members of the Solicitor 23 General's department? 24 A: They were members of the Deputy 25 Minister's staff.
221 Q: And they were -- was it your 2 understanding they were seconded to the Deputy Minister? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And other than the briefings during 5 the summer of 1995, did you have any direct contact other 6 than perhaps with respect to First Nation policing with 7 Ron Fox or Scott Patrick? 8 A: Not that I recall. 9 Q: And as part of the briefing process 10 the -- did you and the Minister meet with representatives 11 of the stakeholders? 12 A: Yes. Following the original 13 briefings of the Minister we began arranging a whole 14 series of stakeholder meetings and that would have been 15 with associations such as the Police Association of 16 Ontario and the Ontario Provincial Police Association, 17 the Corrections Union and we also met with various heads 18 of agencies so the Parole Board and the Commissioner of 19 the OPP also came in. 20 Q: And we've heard that there were 21 regular senior management committee meetings at the 22 Solicitor General's department that were attended by the 23 Deputy Minister, Commissioner O'Grady attended those. 24 Did you attend those meetings? 25 A: No.
231 Q: And do you recall any briefings with 2 respect to Aboriginal issues other than the briefing with 3 respect to First Nation Policing? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And could I take you to Tab 2 of the 6 book of documents that's in front of you? And that's 7 Exhibit P-643 Inquiry Document 1007239, the Statement of 8 Political Relationship, Guidelines, Questions and Answers 9 dated August 1992. 10 Prior to my showing you this -- prior to 11 getting ready for your appearance at this Inquiry, had 12 you seen this document before? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And as well, at Tab 4 there's a 15 document, it's Inquiry Document 1012533 and it's a 16 briefing on Aboriginal affairs for Premier's office 17 staff. 18 Had you seen this document before? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Now, did you have any discussions 21 with your Minister Mr. Runciman with respect to the 22 relationship between the Minister and the Minister's 23 office and the Ontario Provincial Police? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And can you tell us about that? Was
241 it more than one (1) or can you tell us what took place 2 in the summer 1995; that's what we're most interested in? 3 A: Yes. The Minister was well aware 4 that there was a separation between the OPP and the 5 political staff and he used to recount to us some other 6 Solicitor Generals who in the past had gotten in 7 difficulty because it -- they had crossed that line and 8 got involved and one (1) of the -- the ministers was Joan 9 Smith. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: And it's my recollection that on 12 behalf of a friend she went to a police station and as a 13 result of that lost her portfolio. 14 Q: And were there any other examples? 15 A: We also talked about Ken Keyes. He - 16 - there was an OPP boat in the Thousand Islands and there 17 was alcohol on the boat. 18 Q: And he resigned as a result of that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And so was this something that Mr. 21 Runciman stressed to you and to the rest of your staff? 22 A: Absolutely, yes. 23 Q: Now the role of Barb Taylor, we 24 touched on it briefly but can you tell us what your 25 understanding of the role of Barb Taylor was in July,
251 August, early September 1995? 2 A: Hmm hmm. It was my understanding 3 that -- that the separation between the Minister and his 4 political staff and the OPP was two (2) ways, in the 5 sense that Barb had been seconded to the Deputy 6 Minister's office to ensure that we had a way to contact 7 the OPP about policy matters, but that we would never 8 contact the OPP directly. 9 And so whenever I -- I or a member of the 10 Minster's staff had a question, the questions would be 11 put to Barb Taylor. 12 Q: And with respect to the office of the 13 Solicitor General, in the summer of 1995, I understand it 14 was located at Church and Bloor Street? 15 A: That's correct, 400. 16 Q: 400 Bloor? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the physical setup of the office 19 with respect to the Minister's office, the Deputy 20 Minister's office and the OPP liaison officer, can you 21 tell us a little about that? 22 A: Yes, the office was set up with a 23 central lobby and on one side was the Minister's office 24 and then there was a boardroom behind that office. And 25 on the other side of the lobby was the Deputy Minister
261 and the Deputy Minister's staff. So there was a 2 separation between the two (2) offices and the two (2) 3 staffs. 4 Q: And so your view and the other 5 political staff were on the Minister's side of the lobby? 6 A: That's correct? 7 Q: And the -- and Barb Taylor and the -- 8 Mr. Fox and Mr. Patrick had an office on the Deputy 9 Minister's side? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, what about -- you talked about 12 questions about policy matters with respect to the 13 Ontario Provincial Police, what about operational 14 matters? 15 What role if any, did the Minister have 16 with respect to operational matters of the Ontario 17 Provincial Police? 18 A: He had no role. 19 Q: And what role, if any, did you play 20 or other political staff in the office play with respect 21 to operational matters of the Ontario Provincial Police? 22 A: We had no role. 23 Q: And when you say you had no role, 24 what do you mean by that? 25 A: We had a clear understanding that
271 there could be no interference in the day to day 2 operations of the OPP. So we could not be involved in 3 any operational matters. And all our questions about the 4 OPP related to policy. 5 Q: Okay. And in 1995 were you given a 6 briefing with respect to the policy of the Ontario 7 Provincial Police with respect to blockades or 8 occupations? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And I've placed in the yellow binder 11 in -- folder in front of you the document, it's P-472, 12 it's a briefing note for the Interministerial policy 13 forum November 26/'91, and prior to my showing you this 14 document had you seen this document before? 15 A: No. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Now, you spoke to us with respect to 20 the Issue Management Team, that one of the roles was 21 issue management? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the -- can you tell the 24 Commissioner a little bit more about the Issue Management 25 Team in the summer of 1995?
281 A: Yes. Inside the Deputy Minister's 2 office there were a group of people who worked on issue 3 management and preparing briefing notes for the Minister. 4 The briefing notes were presented on legal size paper 5 with a positioning statement at the top, followed by 6 background or factual information. 7 There were three (3) people in the unit in 8 the summer of 1995. Mike Zimmerman headed up the unit, 9 Al Zunder who was an OPP officer was there and Gord, and 10 I can't remember his last name, was there for the 11 Correctional Services side of the portfolio. 12 Q: And so that these three (3) gentlemen 13 dealt with the issue management? 14 A: From the Deputy Minister's side. 15 From our side the Minister had a legislative assistant 16 and a communications advisor and myself, so that was 17 basically our core for the issue management. 18 And each morning the two (2) groups of -- 19 of individuals from the Deputy Minister's office and the 20 Minister's office would get together and we would review 21 the issues of the day, including issue notes that had 22 been prepared and media clippings that were presented in 23 a package. 24 Q: And the -- from the Minister's side 25 in the summer of 1995, the communications officer was --
291 liaison was Mr. Tuffs? 2 A: Yes, but I was actually speaking 3 about the Minister's communications advisor Alexis 4 Mantel. 5 Q: Okay. And who was the other person 6 from the Minster's staff who attended? 7 A: Terry Simzer. 8 Q: Terry Simzer? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And with respect to the issue 11 management, how many issue notes would you receive, 12 typically, back in July and August of 1995, on a typical 13 day? 14 A: Yeah. I would estimate that I would 15 receive between twenty (20) and forty (40) issue notes a 16 day. 17 Q: And those were in addition to the 18 notes that you discussed at the morning meeting? 19 A: Well, no. That would be like a -- a 20 total for the day. Sometimes they would distribute the 21 issue notes at the morning meeting, but I also received 22 them over the course of the day so as issues emerged I 23 would be given copies of issue notes. 24 Q: And could you tell us a little bit 25 about the Solicitor General and Correctional Services
301 Department. 2 In terms of government departments and 3 size, how was -- how did the Solicitor General and 4 Correctional Services Department relate to other 5 departments in government? 6 A: Yeah. It was one (1) of the largest 7 departments in the Government as a direct employer, both 8 of correctional officers and OPP officers. The 9 Corrections side of the Ministry was very large. There 10 were approximately forty-five (45) institutions and then 11 there were adult day programs and there were also young 12 offender facilities and young offender day programs. 13 So there was a large number of 14 institutional and community based programs and we 15 received a great number of issue notes from the 16 Correctional side of the Ministry. 17 Q: Okay. And prior to September 4th, 18 1995, how was correspondence coming into the Minister's 19 office -- into the Ministry handled for the Minister? 20 A: There was a correspondence unit, it 21 was also located at 400 Bloor Street and the mail would 22 arrive and would be opened by the Correspondence Unit. 23 They would then route the correspondence to the 24 appropriate arm of the Ministry for the preparation of a 25 response.
311 The Minister expressed, at some point, an 2 interest in receiving correspondence in a more timely way 3 and so we -- we developed a log of correspondence which 4 would come to the issue meeting as well, so we would be 5 aware of the incoming letters. 6 Q: And can you -- I know it's a long 7 time ago and only lawyers ask these questions, but can 8 you recall when the change was made with respect to the 9 correspondence? 10 A: Not specifically. It would have been 11 sometime during the summer of '95 though. 12 Q: And the correspondence unit, when 13 they received a letter, they prepared a response to the 14 letter? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And prior to the change so that the 17 Minister saw the letters in a more timely fashion, did 18 the Minister see the letter and the response at the same 19 time; was that typically what happened? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now prior to your appointment as Mr. 22 Runciman's executive assistant, did you have any 23 knowledge of or involvement with Camp Ipperwash? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And did you have any knowledge or
321 involvement with Ipperwash Provincial Park? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And the -- when do you recall first 4 becoming aware of Ipperwash Provincial Park as an issue? 5 A: My -- my recollection was that I 6 first became aware on September 5th, but subsequently 7 you've shown me briefing material, specifically issue 8 notes that made reference to Ipperwash Provincial Park 9 and likely I did see copies of all those issue notes. 10 Q: And just, if I could take you to Tab 11 34 of the document book. 12 This is Exhibit P-560. It's Inquiry 13 document 200 -- excuse me, 2000988 and it's an issue note 14 dated July 10th, 1995 and it deals with Camp Ipperwash. 15 And do you recall seeing at least -- seeing this issue 16 note? 17 A: I don't specifically recall, but 18 likely I would have seen it, yes. 19 Q: And I note that this document has a 20 second page to it, attached to it, did you -- do you 21 recall receiving page 2? 22 A: It's unlikely I would have had an 23 attachment to an issue note. Because this is media 24 coverage, it likely would have been presented in a 25 separate media clippings package, so...
331 Q: And in July and August of 1995, how 2 often would you meet with the Minister to discuss issues 3 of the day? 4 A: Daily. 5 Q: Daily. And was there a regular time 6 for the meeting with the Minister? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And did -- who -- after your issue 9 management meeting in the morning, with the staff from 10 the deputy Minister's office, who briefed the Minister 11 with respect to the issues that were -- that had been 12 discussed at the morning meeting? 13 A: It was probably one of three (3) 14 people or a combination. Myself, Terry Sims or the issue 15 manager or Alexis Mantel, his communications advisor. 16 Q: Okay. And was the Minister provided 17 with issue notes such as the one at Tab 34, Exhibit P- 18 560? 19 A: Yes, he was originally. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: But, due to the volume of issue 22 notes, he actually requested that we come up with an 23 alternative format for him which consisted of positioning 24 statements and information on a series of cards that went 25 into a special card index book.
341 Q: And why was that? 2 A: Simply the volume of paper. We were 3 also preparing the Minister for the House coming back 4 into session -- it -- later in September and he didn't 5 want a large binder format for his information; he wanted 6 something more concise. And they found an old ministerial 7 book, flip card book, in the Ministry that we prepared 8 for the Minister. 9 Q: And at Tab 35, there's a copy of P- 10 561. It's Inquiry Document 2000987 and do you recall -- 11 this is dated July 12th, 1995, do you recall seeing this 12 issue note? 13 A: It's unlikely that I did see this 14 issue note, because it's not in the correct format. Our 15 issue notes always had a positioning statement at the 16 top. 17 Q: And this one doesn't? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Then at Tab 39 there's Exhibit P-587, 20 Inquiry Document 200986. Do you recall receiving this 21 issue note? 22 A: Again, I don't have a specific 23 recollection but it's likely that yes, indeed I did 24 receive this. 25 Q: And at Tab 36, there's Inquiry
351 Document 2000985, Exhibit P-562. And this is a document 2 that is five (5) pages. Do you recall seeing this issue 3 note dated July 31st, 1995? 4 A: Again I -- I don't have a specific 5 recollection but I would likely have received the first 6 two (2) pages. The other material I don't believe I 7 received. 8 Q: And the other material is a document, 9 the last three (3) pages, Canadian Forces Bases 10 Ipperwash, that -- there's a two (2) page document, 11 Canadian Forces Bases Ipperwash, J.F. Carson. We know 12 that was John Carson, the Incident Commander. And then 13 there's a fax to the office of the Commissioner. 14 But, the first two (2) pages you expect -- 15 you probably saw but nothing else? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And at the next tab, Tab 37, there's 18 Exhibit P-563, Inquiry Document 200984 and there's a 19 number of attachments, e-mails et cetera. 20 Do you recall seeing the first two (2) 21 pages of the issue note? 22 A: No. Again, it's likely that I did 23 receive this document, but just the first two (2) pages. 24 I wouldn't have received the e-mails. 25 Q: And the -- on August the -- on July
361 29th, the built-up area of the Military Base was occupied 2 by the occupiers and do you recall today when you first 3 learned about that? 4 A: I don't have a specific recollection. 5 The issue notes that we've been discussing clearly 6 indicate that in early August I would have been aware. 7 Q: And there was a meeting on August the 8 2nd of the Interministerial Committee on Aboriginal 9 Emergencies. Were you aware at the time of the meeting of 10 August the 2nd? 11 A: No. I was not. 12 Q: And did you receive a report from Ron 13 Fox or anyone else at the Ministry with respect to the 14 August 2nd meeting? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And at Tab 32 -- and if you could put 17 your finger at Tab 32 and then also go to Tab 40. 18 There's a letter from -- it's Exhibit P-534, Inquiry 19 Document 1000918. 20 It's a letter from Mr. Marcel Beaubien to 21 Mr. Charles Harnick, the Attorney General and attached to 22 -- and it shows as a copy -- a copy to Mr. Runciman. 23 And do you recall seeing this letter back 24 in July or August 1995? 25 A: I didn't have a specific recollection
371 of the letter. 2 Q: Okay. And I note on Exhibit P-534 3 there's a stamp. Do you see that stamp? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And it says, "Ministry of the 6 Solicitor General and Correctional Services". And was 7 that a stamp in user in your department at the time? 8 A: That would have been a stamp that the 9 correspondence unit would have used. 10 Q: Okay. And at Tab 40 there's a 11 document, it's Exhibit P-588, Inquiry Document 2000425, 12 and it's called, A Routing Memo, it's the Ministry of the 13 Solicitor General and Correctional Services. 14 And can you tell us what this document is, 15 generically first, before -- 16 A: Generically. The -- within the 17 Deputy Minister's office was the Correspondence Unit and 18 when a letter was received it was opened by that unit, 19 stamped and then they would assign a number and then 20 route it inside the Ministry to the appropriate 21 department for a response. 22 At the bottom it does indicate that it was 23 also circulated to other individuals and it was from this 24 notation circulated to the Minister's office as the MNO. 25 Q: And the reference to the Minister's
381 office is "MNO" on the block on the left-hand side at the 2 bottom? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I note that this document P-588 5 has -- it's dated August the 1st. Under, "Log 6 Reference" there's a number, the same number that appears 7 on the letter, and then, "Date Required By". 8 And there's initials "N/A" and I take it 9 that means not applicable? 10 A: I would assume -- 11 Q: You see at the top? 12 A: Yeah. I would assume so. 13 Q: And there's a note on this: 14 "No response necessary at this time. 15 [This letter is not addressed to the 16 Minister.] If a response should be 17 necessary at a later date you will be 18 advised." 19 And I note that it's shown as a copy to 20 Mr. O'Grady, or at least his -- he's checked the 21 submission of the OPP. Then at the bottom a copy was 22 sent to Barb Taylor, and "DMO" means Deputy Minister's 23 office? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Ron Fox, Deputy Minister's office?
391 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then Mr. Zimmerman and Mr. 3 Zunder, and they were -- part of the Issue Management 4 Team in the Deputy Minister's office? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the -- underneath Mr. Zimmerman's 7 name is -- I take it that refers to a file copy? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And Linda Lane? Who was Linda Lane? 10 A: Linda was part of the Correspondence 11 Unit for the Ministry. 12 Q: And I note that on Exhibit P-588 13 there's a stamp of the Deputy Minister's office dated 14 August the 4th, 1995. And do you recognize as -- that as 15 a stamp that was used by her office in 1995? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Did you have any discussions with the 18 Minister or with anyone with respect to Mr. Beaubien's 19 letter of July 31st, 1995? 20 A: I don't specifically recall the 21 letter -- 22 Q: So -- 23 A: -- or a discussion. 24 Q: Okay. Then at Tab 50 there are -- 25 there's a copy of the Exhibit 50 -- P-506 Inquiry
401 Document 1011682 and it's -- attached to the fax is a 2 copy of meeting notes, August the 2nd, 1995. Prior to 3 getting ready for your appearance at the Inquiry had you 4 seen these minutes before? 5 A: No. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: For those, My Friends, what happened 10 we sent out an initial list and then we sent out a 11 revised list that went out. 12 It was supposed to have gone out early 13 this week so that that's why -- I know My Friends all 14 prepare their books, and I apologize that this happened 15 that we re-jigged the list and many of them don't have 16 it, but we've tried to get the Inquiry Document number. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: My Friends' revised only goes to 21 forty-nine (49) not fifty (50). 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So, at any rate it's - 24 - fifty (50) was the minutes of the August the 2nd 25 meeting and I apologize to My Friends. Sometimes these
411 things unavoidably happen. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've got 3 the document number now? Do you have the document number 4 now, 1011682? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I'll get to it 6 later, but for the benefit of My Friends there is a Tab 7 51 and it's Exhibit P-594, Inquiry document 2001053. 8 And, Commissioner, I apologize to everyone 9 that this list got changed and My Friends weren't 10 provided with it. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Again, at Tab 41 there's a copy of 16 Exhibit P-589, Inquiry document 2000983. It's an issue 17 note dated August the 3rd, 1995 and do you recall seeing 18 -- receiving that issue note? 19 A: I don't have a specific recollection 20 of it but, likely, again, I did receive it. 21 Q: And Exhibit P-590 at Tab 42, Inquiry 22 document 2000982; it's dated August the 8th, 1995? 23 A: Yes, again, I don't specifically 24 recall it. 25 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 31
421 please, there's a copy of Inquiry document 1012239 and 2 it's the -- Exhibit P-418. 3 And the -- what I want to ask you about 4 is, the third page in is a letter dated August the 14th, 5 1995 from Mr. Marcel Beaubien to Mr. Harnick and a copy 6 is shown as having been sent, among others, to Mr. Robert 7 Runciman, excuse me, and Mr. Terry Simzer of the Ministry 8 of the Solicitor General. 9 Do you recall seeing the letter dated 10 August 14th, 1995? 11 A: I don't have a specific recollection 12 of this letter but, likely, because it was copied to a 13 member of the Minister's staff, I would have seen it. 14 Q: And the -- and the member of the 15 Minister's staff was Mr. Simzer? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And he was the legislative assistant 18 you told us about a few minutes ago? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: But do you recall -- other than you 21 think you got -- you probably saw it, do you recall any 22 discussions or do you have any recollection at all of 23 seeing this letter? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And what about the letter attached to
431 it from -- dated August 14, '99 -- '95 from Mr. Fred 2 Thomas, the Mayor of the Town of Bosanquet to Mr. David 3 Collenette, Minister of National Defence? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Now do you -- when you say no -- 6 A: Oh, sorry, I have no recollection. 7 Q: Now the -- when did you first take -- 8 learn of the take over of the Park? 9 A: Early on the 5th of September, which 10 I believe was the Tuesday after the long weekend. 11 Q: And how did you learn about the take 12 over of the Park? 13 A: I'm not specifically sure whether it 14 would have been from the issue management team in the 15 Ministry at the morning meeting or whether it would have 16 been from one of my colleagues. 17 Q: And -- excuse me for a moment, 18 Commissioner. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And at Tab 8 -- excuse me, at Tab -- 23 Tab 5 there's a memorandum, Interministerial Committee 24 for Aboriginal Emergencies Ipperwash Park, dated 25 September 5th, 1995.
441 And you're shown as an expected attendee? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And do you recall receiving the 4 agenda for that meeting? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And is it likely that you attended -- 7 you received it? 8 A: In advance of the meeting? 9 Q: Or -- 10 A: Or at the meeting? 11 Q: Or at the meeting? 12 A: It's likely that I received it at the 13 meeting. 14 Q: And that's Inquiry Document 1000913 15 and perhaps we cld mark that the next exhibit It would be 16 P...? 17 THE REGISTRAR: 928. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 928. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-928: Document number 1000913. 21 Agenda: IMC Meeting, 22 September 05/'95. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And at any time prior to September
451 5th or 6th, did you see the Guidelines for Responding to 2 Aboriginal Emergencies? 3 And if I could take you to Tab 6 it's 4 Exhibit P-498. It's part of Inquiry Document 1012232, 5 the second page in? 6 Those are the guidelines. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: Did you see those guidelines before? 9 A: No. 10 Q: No. And when you say "no" in this 11 case is it no, you didn't see them or no, you don't 12 recall? 13 A: No, I don't believe I've seen them. 14 Q: And at Tab 3 there's a copy of 15 Exhibit P-303, Inquiry Document 1011557, dated July 10th, 16 1995. It's a two (2) page document that Exhibit P-498 is 17 an appendix to. 18 But, did you ever see this briefing note 19 for Mr. Harnick with respect to Aboriginal emergencies? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Now, can you tell us what you recall 22 with respect to the meeting on September 5th, 1995? 23 A: My recollection it was -- that it was 24 an information sharing session, and the Ministry of 25 Natural Resources was providing an overview of
461 information about what had happened over the weekend, and 2 that there was some discussion of options or next steps. 3 Q: And do you recall anything else about 4 the meeting? 5 When -- when the meeting started do you 6 recall was everyone introduced? 7 A: I don't have a specific recollection 8 of that. 9 Q: And do you recall who chaired the 10 meeting? 11 A: My sense was that Deb Hutton was 12 chairing the meeting. 13 Q: And why do you say that? 14 A: She -- she seemed to be the -- the 15 lead speaker at the meeting and asking questions. 16 Q: And the -- how would you -- what was 17 your impression of Ms. Hutton at the meeting? How did 18 she act? 19 A: To be fair I -- you know my -- my 20 recollection of each of the individual meetings is 21 probably blended, but it's fair to say that I had an 22 impression that there was some tension with respect to 23 the issue. 24 Q: So, when you say your recollection is 25 blended?
471 A: The 5th -- the meeting of the 5th and 2 the meeting of the 6th. 3 Q: Are blended together in your mind? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And when you say there was tension, 6 can you tell us a little bit about the tension and who 7 the tension was between? 8 A: I can't specifically say. I just -- 9 there -- there was a sense of a need to come up with a 10 solution and so a range of options were being considered 11 and we needed to deal with the issue in a timely way. 12 Q: And what about the civil servants 13 that were at the meetings? How were they -- how did they 14 respond at the meetings? 15 A: I -- I was sitting with Ron Fox and I 16 believe Scott Patrick attended both those meetings. And 17 the Ministry of Natural Resources was giving a great deal 18 of information and Ron also provided information from the 19 OPP's perspective and, you know, in between the two (2) 20 meetings, Ron did send that e-mail which you've provided 21 me a copy of, which indicated that he had some concerns 22 about some of the information that was shared at the 23 September 5th meeting. 24 Q: And the e-mail you're referring to is 25 at Tab 13, it's Exhibit P-513, Inquiry Document 1000911?
481 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you -- this is an e-mail dated 3 September 6th, 1995 at 7:55? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that was sent to you in the 6 morning before the second meeting? 7 A: Yes, that's correct. 8 Q: And when you say he was -- you took 9 this as a concern; what do you mean by that? 10 A: Just that this was prepared to 11 clarify information and to make sure that we had accurate 12 information. 13 Q: Okay. And I'm going to take you to 14 the minutes and what some other minutes, but can you, 15 without going to those minutes, recall anything else 16 about the meeting? 17 A: About both meetings? 18 Q: If you can distinguish them about -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- September 1st, first. 21 A: Well, you know, I have -- you have 22 shared minutes with me and so I did speak at some point, 23 I believe it's the September 6th meeting, and I did 24 indicate that there had to be a separation between -- 25 there could be no interference in the day-to-day
491 operations of the OPP. 2 Q: And why did you say that to meeting? 3 A: I can't specifically recall any 4 comment that was made, but there was -- there was -- I 5 think I had some sense that I needed to educate my 6 colleagues, or make sure they had the understanding that 7 we did with inside our Ministry, that there could be no 8 interference in the day-to-day operations of the OPP. 9 Q: And do you recall what triggered 10 that, Ms. Hunt? 11 A: I don't specifically recall. 12 Q: And the -- prior to the September 5th 13 meeting, had you ever been to the ONAS offices? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Had you met or spoken to Julie Jai? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Had you met or spoken to any of the 18 other attendees from ONAS? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And at the meetings, can you describe 21 the position of Mr. Fox and how he reacted at the 22 meetings? Do you recall anything about that? 23 A: My recollection is just that he 24 provided information to the meeting. So, when he was 25 asked questions, he provided an overview of the situation
501 from the OPP's perspective. 2 Q: And with respect to the meetings, 3 what did you view your role at the meetings as? 4 A: I -- I didn't believe that I had a 5 direct role in the meeting. I was there to observe and 6 bring information back to the Minister. 7 Q: And do you recall saying anything 8 other than -- at either of the two (2) meetings, perhaps, 9 other than introducing yourself as that -- I take it you 10 probably introduced yourself? 11 A: Likely, yes. 12 Q: And the others at the meeting likely 13 introduced themselves? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And do you recall today if -- how Ron 16 Fox or Scott Patrick or Barb Taylor was -- Ron Fox or 17 Scott Patrick introduced themselves? 18 A: Specifically, no. 19 Q: And apart from the comment with 20 respect to the role of the Minister and in relation -- or 21 the Government in relation to the OPP, do you recall 22 saying anything else at the meeting? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And you said that -- earlier that 25 there was a, I think you put it that, and I don't
511 remember the exact words, that you got the sense that 2 people wanted things done quickly? 3 A: Yes. And -- 4 Q: Can you tell us a little bit about 5 that? 6 A: Well, I do recall a great deal of 7 discussion about injunctions. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And -- and that there were some 10 conversation about timing related to those. 11 Q: Yes. And do you recall anything 12 about the timing? 13 A: Not specifically, no. 14 Q: And were there different views on the 15 timing? Do you recall that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 8, and 18 this is part of Exhibit P-509, Inquiry Document 1012288. 19 These are the minutes of the meeting -- the typed meeting 20 notes of the meeting on September the 5th. 21 And you've had -- prior to getting ready 22 for you appearance at the Inquiry, did you receive or see 23 these minutes? 24 A: Likely I did, yes. 25 Q: And have you had the opportunity to
521 review the minutes? 2 A: Yes, I have. 3 Q: And do they assist you in refreshing 4 your memory as to what happened at the September the 5th, 5 meeting? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do they accurately set out the 8 points that were discussed or options that were raised at 9 the meeting? 10 A: I don't have a specific recollection 11 of the three (3) options that are presented in the 12 minutes. I just have a recollection that we did discuss 13 options at that meeting. 14 Q: Okay. And do you recall a discussion 15 about ex parte injunctions at that meeting? 16 A: I do. Prior to the meeting I didn't 17 have any knowledge of injunctions. So -- 18 Q: Did you know what they meant when 19 they talked about ex parte? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Do you recall did any of the lawyers 22 explained to the group what ex parte meant, that you can 23 recall? 24 A: I think there was some explanation 25 around timing. That's my recollection.
531 Q: That ex parte meant you could get it 2 faster? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did anyone tell you that -- that 5 you can recall, that ex parte meant without notice? 6 A: I don't have that specific 7 recollection. 8 Q: And on page 3 they -- there are 9 listed the next steps. And are those the next steps that 10 -- correctly set out the next steps that as you 11 understood were going to take place? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you brief your Minister 14 regarding the issue as noted in the first bullet under 15 Item Number 4? 16 A: Yes. It would have been my normal 17 practice to brief the Minister. So yes, I believe I 18 briefed him. 19 Q: Do you have any recollection of 20 briefing him? 21 A: Not specifically, no. 22 Q: So, you're basing -- your answer on 23 the fact that it would have been your normal course to 24 brief him? 25 A: That's correct.
541 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And do you recall at the -- either 4 one of the meetings a discussion about the OPP's role as 5 a negotiator? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And do you recall a discussion about 8 the Minister of Natural Resources taking the lead in 9 communications? 10 A: Not specifically, no. 11 Q: And do you recall a meeting with your 12 Minister on the morning of September the 6th? 13 Did you have a meeting with him? 14 A: I don't recall specifically having a 15 meeting with him. 16 Q: And if I could take you to Tab -- 17 I'll come back to that. 18 At Tab 12 there's a copy of the meeting 19 notes, again part of P-509 Inquiry Document 1011766 for 20 the meeting of September the 6th, 1995. And you attended 21 and the -- have you -- you've had the opportunity to 22 review these notes? 23 A: Yes, I have. 24 Q: And do they assist you in refreshing 25 your memory with respect to the meeting of September the
551 6th? 2 A: Yes, they -- they pick up my 3 reference to, I believe my -- the statement I made about 4 no interference in the day-to-day operations of the OPP 5 and -- 6 Q: And that's a reference under 7 Minister's Directives on page 2? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And prior to attending this meeting, 10 I take it that not being able to recall whether or not 11 you had a briefing with the Minister, I take it you can't 12 recall if you had any instructions from the Minister? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: But it was the position of your 15 Minister as described by you that -- as set out on page 2 16 of this document under Minister's Directives? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And do you recall today and with the 19 use of the minutes as well what the outcome of the 20 meeting was on September the 6th, the Interministerial 21 Committee Meeting? What was supposed to happen? 22 A: It's my understanding that the issue 23 of injunction would be brought forward to the Attorney 24 General, so that there was some consensus that we would 25 move forward with an injunction.
561 Q: And do you recall a discussion at the 2 meeting by Julie Jai that she had and others had spoken 3 to the Attorney General and had received instructions to 4 -- as noted on page 2, that an application will be made 5 for an injunction? 6 A: No, I don't specifically recall that. 7 Q: And do you recall any discussion 8 about the position of the Minister of Natural Resources? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 11, 11 it's Exhibit P-536, there's two (2) sets of notes, 12 Inquiry Document 1012579. These are notes of Julie Jai 13 taken at the meeting and do they -- 14 A: Excuse me, can you repeat the tab? 15 Q: Oh, excuse me, it's Tab 9 -- 16 A: 9. 17 Q: -- Ms. Hunt. 18 A: Thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And if I could take you to the notes 23 for September the 5th which are eight (8) pages in. They 24 start the ninth page in. 25 A: Yes.
571 Q: And in preparation for coming here 2 today, you had the opportunity to look at these notes? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: And do they assist you in -- with 5 respect to what happened at the September 5th meeting? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And can you tell us what they assist 8 you with respect to; what issues? 9 A: Well, they indicate that both the 10 Ministry of Natural Resources and the Solicitor General 11 via Ron Fox were providing information to the group from 12 each of their Ministry's perspective about what was going 13 on in the Park. 14 In addition, they outlined the options 15 that were being considered by the group -- 16 Q: And -- 17 A: -- and the fact that the Minister of 18 Natural Resources was going to communicate on the issue. 19 Q: And do you recall a discussion at the 20 meetings, at the September 5th meeting about a burial 21 ground? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what do you recall with respect 24 to the burial ground? 25 A: I just have a recollection that there
581 was a conversation about a burial ground and that there 2 wasn't complete agreement on whether there -- it existed 3 inside the Park. 4 Q: And complete agreement among who? 5 A: Well there were -- there were 6 differing perspectives that's -- you know, just a sense 7 that -- that there were different points of view. 8 Q: And do you recall the -- at page 9 there's a note, 10 "Premier asked why this Committee 11 didn't meet to discuss Serpent Mounds. 12 How was the decision made." 13 Do you remem -- do you recall that 14 question being asked? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Do you recall someone saying that the 17 Premier is hawkish on this issue and feels we're being 18 tested on this issue? 19 A: No. 20 Q: The -- do you recall someone saying 21 that we haven't dealt with the SPR yet, so don't have the 22 larger framework? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you recall someone saying that 25 there was no public safety issue in the Park?
591 A: No. 2 Q: And at page 8, there's a note at the 3 bottom, 4 "Deb wants an emergency injunction. 5 Doesn't want to wait two (2) weeks." 6 Do you recall someone saying that at the 7 meeting? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And at page 9, there's a note: 10 "We will seek an injunction. We will 11 try to peaceably remove the dissidents 12 up to OPP discussion. We will 13 recommend this to our political matters 14 -- masters." 15 Did you -- do you recall what the outcome 16 of the meeting of September the 5th was; what was going 17 to happen as a result of it? 18 A: No, not specifically, no. 19 Q: Then if I could take you to the 20 beginning of this tab, Exhibit P-536, and these are Ms. 21 Jai's notes of September the 6th. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Do you recall a comment being made: 24 "Premier doesn't want anyone involved 25 in discussions other than OPP and
601 possibly MNR. Doesn't want Chief or 2 others involved. Doesn't want to get 3 into negotiations." 4 A: No. 5 Q: And when you say "no" with respect to 6 these, you're not saying it didn't happen; you just don't 7 recall? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And do you recall someone saying, as 10 noted on page 2: 11 "PO would like Chief to support us but 12 do this independently. Doesn't want to 13 go into land claims." 14 A: No. 15 Q: Do you recall a comment as noted on 16 the bottom of page 2: 17 "But we want to be seen as having 18 control over this, so Ministers can't 19 duck if scrummed. And Premier not 20 adverse to this being a provincial 21 Government action." 22 A: No. 23 Q: Do you recall on -- as noted on page 24 3, "best case, Friday in court"? Do you recall that? 25 A: No.
611 Q: Do you recall -- there's a note: 2 "Deb: Premier feels the longer they 3 occupy it, the more support they'll 4 get. He wants them out in a day or two 5 (2)." 6 A: No. 7 Q: There's a note: 8 "Ron: It's still a dispute over land 9 and a closed provincial park. It's 10 mischief not a heavy duty charge. Need 11 to look at long term solution. 12 Injunction is preferable. Feels it's 13 imprudent to rush in." 14 Do you recall that comment being made? 15 A: I have some recollection that Ron 16 said that it's a closed provincial park and it's 17 mischief. 18 Q: And anything else? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Page 4. There's a note at the 21 bottom: 22 "Agreed we will seek injunction ASAP, 23 Friday. Criminal Code charges within 24 police discretion. They're trying to 25 remove people. All agree goal is to
621 remove people as soon as possible." 2 Do you recall a discussion about that? 3 A: Yes. I believe that's referring to 4 the injunction. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: And that there was some consensus 7 developing that we would proceed with an injunction. 8 Q: Okay. Then at page 6. There's a 9 note: 10 "Ministerial spokesperson MNR doesn't 11 want it to be them." 12 Do you recall at the September 6th 13 meeting, the MNR being reluctant to be the spokesperson? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Then there's a note: 16 "Deb feels MNR as property owner can 17 ask OPP to remove people." 18 Do you recall that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And there's a note: 21 "Scott: You ask them to remove them. 22 You can't insist or demand that they be 23 removed." 24 And we understand that was Scott 25 Hutchinson; do you recall that?
631 A: No. 2 Q: "Deb: Has MNR asked OPP to remove 3 them?" 4 Do you recall that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And at the bottom there's a note: 7 "Minister Hodgson will take lead in 8 communication as property owner." 9 Then a note: 10 "Deb: The Premier's also prepared to 11 speak on this." 12 Do you recall that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And I provided you last night with a 15 book of notes that My Friend at Mr. Klippenstein's office 16 had prepared -- has used. And if I could take you to Tab 17 8. It's a copy of Exhibit P-636, the Inquiry Document 18 1011784, the notes of Eileen Hipfner. 19 Prior to these meetings did you know 20 Eileen -- 21 A: Sorry, excuse me, did you say Tab 8? 22 Q: Tab 8. 23 A: Because I have Elizabeth Christie. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 25 Tab 7.
641 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, excuse me. It's 2 the second group of tab numbers actually that I need -- 3 the September 6th. I'm sorry. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 5 sorry. 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 8 it then again? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 8. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 8, in 11 the second group. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: In the second group. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And my stickie came 17 off when I was doing that so... 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: At page 3 there's a note by Ms. 21 Hipfner and I may have -- had you met Ms. Hipfner before 22 these two (2) meetings? 23 A: No. 24 Q: It says: 25 "Hunt: Runciman's reservation issues
651 from the fact that Sol Gen's protocol 2 is not to be involved day-to-day 3 direction police. Political arm should 4 be divorced." 5 And you've told us that you recall that 6 subject; do you recall using these words or similar to 7 them? 8 A: I just recall there could be no 9 interference in the day to day operations of the OPP. 10 Q: And then at page 6, there's a note 11 attributed to you under Fox then Hunt. 12 "If remove them no guarantee they won't 13 move right back in." 14 Do you recall making a statement like 15 that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Do you think you made a statement 18 like that? 19 A: No, I don't believe so. 20 Q: And do you believe that someone has 21 mis-attributed that statement to you? 22 A: Possibly. 23 Q: And did you recall anyone at the 24 September 5th or the September 6th meeting saying that 25 the Premier wants to get those fucking Indians out of the
661 Park and to use guns if necessary? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you hear anything that remotely 4 sounded like that or resembled that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Do you recall if anyone gave 7 instructions to the Ontario Provincial Police as a 8 result, on September 5th or September the 6th? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And when you say, "no" -- 11 A: No, I do not recall any instructions 12 being given to the OPP. 13 Q: And did you, on behalf of your 14 Minister speak to, other than Ron Fox -- give any 15 instructions to either Ron Fox or anyone in the Ontario 16 Provincial Police on either September 5th or September 17 6th, 1995? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And do you know if your Minister Mr. 20 Runciman, from your understanding, had any discussions 21 with the Commissioner of the OPP on September 5th or 22 September 6th, or any other senior officers in the 23 Ontario Provincial Police? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And when you say "no," do you mean
671 no -- 2 A: It's my understanding that he had no 3 conversations. 4 Q: And what do you base that 5 understanding on? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: I guess it's just the -- the strong 10 sense that the Minister had that there could be no 11 interference in the day-to-day operations of the OPP. 12 Q: And as of September the 6th, 1995 had 13 you received any briefings concerning the particular 14 dynamics or issues that play in First Nations 15 occupations? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you ever receive any after 18 September the 6th? 19 A: No. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Do you recall at the meetings on 24 September 5th or 6th members of the political staff 25 making strong statements?
681 A: I can't specifically remember what 2 was said. I had a sense that there was a sense of 3 urgency. 4 Q: And the -- how did the civil servants 5 appear at the meetings? Were they comfortable, 6 uncomfortable? 7 A: I can't really speak to that point. 8 I'd never met most of the individuals in the room prior 9 to attending those meetings. 10 Q: Now, after the meeting of September 11 the 6th, did you brief your Minister? 12 A: Again, I don't have a specific 13 recollection but it would have been my normal practice to 14 brief the Minister. 15 Q: And we understand that there was a 16 Cabinet meeting on the morning of September the 6th? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And from the minutes this meeting 19 lasted until approximately 11:45? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And do you recall having a meeting 22 with your Minister after this meeting ended at 11:45? 23 A: Not specifically, no. 24 Q: And on September the 6th there was a 25 meeting at Queen's Park that took place after the IMC
691 meeting. 2 Did you attend a meeting at Queen's Park 3 on September the 6th? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And do you -- how did you end up at 6 the meeting? 7 A: I don't specifically recall. I was 8 asked to attend and whether it was a phone call or 9 whether the Deputy Minister asked me to attend. 10 Q: And where was the meeting held? 11 A: In the dining room, in the 12 legislature. It was referred to as the dining room. It 13 was outside the cabinet room and the Premier's office in 14 the Legislature. 15 Q: In the -- and who do you recall 16 attended the meeting? 17 A: The Minister, Bob Runciman; the 18 deputy Minister, Elaine Todres; myself; Jeff Bangs; 19 Minister Hodgson; and the deputy Minister. 20 Q: Who was Ron Vrancart? 21 A: Yes. Charles Harnick, the Attorney 22 General; the deputy Attorney General Larry Taman, and 23 Dave Moran; Deb Hutton and then Barb Taylor from our 24 Ministry; Ron Fox from the Ministry and -- but the 25 minutes indicate that Scott Patrick was there or the
701 documentation, but I don't recall Scott being there. 2 Q: You don't recall Scott -- 3 A: I don't. 4 Q: Do you recall David Lindsay being 5 there? 6 A: I do not. 7 Q: And can you tell us what you remember 8 as to what happened on the September -- at this dining 9 room meeting? 10 A: My recollection is, again, that there 11 was a discussion about injunction and that Larry Taman 12 was the lead speaker and the Attorney General, Charles 13 Harnick. 14 Q: And what do you recall Mr. Taman and 15 Mr. Harnick saying? 16 A: I don't specifically recall. They 17 were talking about injunction. 18 Q: And the -- and in relation to the 19 room, where were you sitting? 20 A: I was sitting in chairs that were at 21 the perimeter of the room. 22 Q: And how large was the room, can you 23 recall? 24 A: I don't know, it's about the size of 25 a standard dining room. There's a table in the centre
711 and then there were chairs around the outside. 2 Q: And did the Premier speak at the 3 meeting? 4 A: Yes, I believe so. 5 Q: And what, if anything, do you 6 recall -- 7 A: I don't specifically recall what he 8 said. 9 Q: Do you recall at the beginning of the 10 meeting, individuals being introduced? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Do you recall at the beginning of the 13 meeting, Ms. Todres speaking about the issue of non- 14 interference with the OPP? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Do you recall whether or not Ron Fox 17 or Scott Patrick were at the meeting from the beginning 18 or came in later? 19 A: No. 20 Q: You don't recall -- 21 A: I don't recall. 22 Q: And do you recall if Mr. Ron Fox and 23 Scott Patrick were introduced when they came into the 24 meeting? 25 A: I don't recall.
721 Q: Do you recall anything the Premier 2 said? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Did you hear anyone at the meeting 5 make a reference to the holocaust? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Can you help us with anything else 8 about the meeting? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Do you recall what was going to 11 happen as a result of the meeting? 12 A: Not specifically, no. 13 Q: When you say "not specifically", what 14 do you mean -- 15 A: Again -- 16 Q: -- by that? 17 A: -- my recollection is that the 18 conversation was about the injunction -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- which was the Attorney General's 21 responsibility. 22 Q: And what role, if any, did your 23 Minister play in the meeting; do you recall him saying 24 anything? 25 A: I don't recall the Minister saying
731 anything. 2 Q: What about Ms. Todres? 3 A: Again, I don't recall specifically. 4 Q: What about you? 5 A: No. I don't believe I -- I spoke at 6 that meeting. 7 Q: Okay. And do you recall when -- did 8 the Premier leave before the end of the meeting or do you 9 -- 10 A: I don't recall that. 11 Q: Okay. You don't recall whether that 12 happened or not? 13 A: Exactly. 14 Q: Okay. Now on September the 6th, 15 1995, did you attend any meetings with your Minister and 16 Minister Hodgson and Minister Harnick and their EA's and 17 Deputy Ministers prior to the dining room meeting? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did you attend any meeting with them, 20 Mr. Hodgson, Mr. Harnick, Minister Runciman, the deputy 21 Ministers and the EA's after the dining room meeting on 22 September the 6th? 23 A: Not that I recall, no. 24 Q: And at Tab 14, there's a -- Inquiry 25 document 1010534. It's a memo from Jeff Bangs dated
741 September 6th, 1995 to you and others. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And do you recall receiving this 4 document? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And I believe that document was 7 marked Exhibit 732? 8 And so you don't recall seeing the 9 document -- receiving the document? It's likely that you 10 received it, but you just don't remember it? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And four (4) pages in, there's a 13 press release dated September 6th, 1995 -- excuse me, six 14 (6) pages in, from the Ontario Provincial Police. 15 Do you recall seeing that press release? 16 A: No, I do not. 17 Q: And at the next page, the eighth page 18 in, another press release? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And at the last page, a letter of -- 21 a memorandum from Mr. Vrancart to Mr. Sturdy dated 22 September 6th, 1995? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And at Tab 15, there's a document -- 25 Inquiry Document 1012317 that is dated September the 6th.
751 It's not addressed to you; it relates to burial sites. 2 Do you ever -- do you recall seeing this 3 document? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And is it likely that you would have 6 received this document? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And at Tab 16... 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 10 I know you're almost -- almost finished, but I think we 11 should take a break. Should we wait until you're 12 finished? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sir, that's fine. Why 14 don't we take a short -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 16 take a break now? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 10:35 p.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 10:54 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
761 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Okay. The document at Tab 16 that we 5 just turned to, we're dealing with, just before the 6 break, it's actually part -- Tab 16 and Tab 15, excuse 7 me, Tab 14 are part of Exhibit 7 -- P-732, Commissioner, 8 under Inquiry document number 1012311; both the September 9 6th memos. 10 And we finished just before the break, I 11 asked you if you had received the September the 6th, 12 1995, the second one at Tab 16, Ms. Hunt. And -- 13 A: I don't specifically recall but it's 14 likely I did. 15 Q: And just to clear something up, I 16 note on the -- this is a copy from the Deputy AG and the 17 fax cover sheets -- the fax header says September 6 '95, 18 Thursday 8:23. And it appears that there was a problem 19 with the recorder at the Deputy AG's office. 20 Do you see that at the top? 21 A: Yes, because I think the 6th was a 22 Wednesday. 23 Q: Wednesday. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That should 25 be Wednesday, I gather.
771 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Yes, it should be. The 6th was a 4 Wednesday unless it was faxed on the 7th. 5 Do you know when it was faxed to you? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Then on September the 6th you don't 8 recall, as I -- you told us before the break, any other 9 meetings with your Minister? 10 A: Yes. I don't recall. 11 Q: And when did you first learn that 12 there had been a tragedy at Ipperwash Provincial Park? 13 A: In the middle of the night between 14 September 6th and 7th. 15 Q: And how did you learn? 16 A: I received a phone call from Jeff 17 Bangs. 18 Q: And Jeff Bangs was the Executive 19 Assistant to -- 20 A: The Minister of Natural Resources, 21 Chris Hodgson. 22 Q: And what did Jeff Bangs tell you? 23 A: All I recall is that there had been a 24 shooting at the Provincial Park and a member of the First 25 Nations was dead.
781 Q: And did he tell you the name of the 2 person who died? 3 A: Not that I recall. 4 Q: And what did you do after receiving 5 the call from Mr. Bangs? 6 A: It's my recollection that I called 7 the Minister. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And the Deputy Minister. 10 Q: And why did you call them? 11 A: I wanted to make sure that they both 12 were aware of the information. 13 Q: And what did you do after you spoke 14 to them? 15 A: Well in consultation with the Deputy 16 Minister and the Minister, it was decided that we would 17 meet back at the office on the morning of the 7th, first 18 thing in the morning. It would have been an earlier 19 meeting than we would -- would of normally met. 20 Q: And what do you recall, if anything, 21 with respect to that meeting? 22 A: I don't recall anything specific 23 about that meeting. 24 Q: But I take it the meeting was to 25 discuss what had happened down at the Park?
791 A: Yes. 2 Q: Were you given any tasks, do you 3 recall, as a result of that meeting? 4 A: The meeting in the morning, no. 5 Q: And on September the 7th, if I could 6 take you to Tab 17 there's a memo, it's Inquiry Document 7 1003521 and it is dated September 7, it's to Dave Moran 8 and from Kathryn Hunt. And do you recognize the printing 9 on this document? 10 A: Yes, that's my printing. 11 Q: And do you recognize the three (3) 12 pages attached to this document? 13 A: No, I do not. 14 Q: Do you recall sending the fax to Dave 15 Moran? 16 A: Not specifically, no. But it's 17 likely that I did send this fax. 18 Q: And do you -- 19 A: Although I note that on the fax cover 20 page it does say page 5. 21 Q: On the cover page it says page 5. 22 A: But again that's the Deputy Attorney 23 General's fax machine. 24 Q: And it appears to have been sent to - 25 - if you look at Tab 15 part of -- although these don't
801 show up on the -- the Exhibit 732. Tab 15 really looks 2 like it's a continuation of the first part of the fax 3 that continues at Tab 17, but at any rate you -- you sent 4 this on Thursday, September the 7th? 5 A: Yes, I think it's likely that I did. 6 Q: And you don't know -- on page 2 of 7 the document at Tab 17 there's a header, OPP Grand Bend 8 6:33. 9 Then the next header's obliterated by the 10 Deputy AG header. 11 Do you have any idea how you came to get 12 these notes? 13 A: No, I do not -- I don't have any 14 recollection of that. 15 Q: And would it be fair to say that it 16 probably came from someone at the OPP at Grand Bend? 17 A: That wouldn't have been how I would 18 have received it. Likely I would have received it from 19 somebody in the Deputy Minister's office. 20 Q: I see. So that it would -- 21 A: So whether it would have been a 22 member of the seconded OPP or a member of the Issue 23 Management Team. 24 Q: And perhaps we could mark that as the 25 next exhibit?
811 THE REGISTRAR: P-929, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-929: Document Number 1003521. Fax 4 message from Dave Moran to 5 Kathryn Hunt attaching 6 handwritten briefing note: 7 Ipperwash Prov. Park, Sept. 8 07/'95. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Now on September 7th, if I could take 12 you to Tab 19 and this is a copy of Exhibit P-661. The 13 actual exhibit copy has the numbers blanked out. 14 Do you recall seeing this document on 15 September the 7th or September the 8th? 16 A: I don't specifically recall it. 17 Q: Do you recall having anything to do 18 with generating this document? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Do you think you did have anything to 21 do with generating this document? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And at Tab 20 there's a document 24 that's managed -- called, Managing Aboriginal Relations 25 with Respect to Ipperwash Provincial Park Occupation.
821 It's Inquiry Document 1012345. 2 Have you -- prior to being shown this 3 document, had you seen this document before? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Now, there are some news release, 6 press releases that are included in this document -- 7 A: Oh. 8 Q: -- that you may have seen, but the 9 document itself you didn't see before? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And at Tab 21 there's a document 12 dated September 7, 1995, material for Elaine Todres, 13 Larry Taman, Ron Vrancart. It's Inquiry Document 14 1003365. Prior to getting ready for the Inquiry did you 15 see this document? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you attend any other 18 Interministerial Meetings -- Committee Meetings -- after 19 September the 6th, 1995? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And at Tab 22 there's a document 22 called, Working group Meeting, dated September 8th. It's 23 been marked as Exhibit P-665, Inquiry Document 1000893. 24 Have you see this document before? 25 A: No.
831 Q: And did you attend any core working 2 group meetings? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And on September the 7th -- I've put 5 in front of you a copy of part of Exhibit P-517 which 6 were the notes of Scott Patrick. It's Inquiry Document 7 2003794. 8 Now do you recall attending a meeting with 9 the Minister of Natural Resources, the Minister of the 10 Attorney General, excuse me, your Minister Mr. Runciman 11 and Deputy Ministers on September the 7th? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And Mr. Patrick, if you look -- if 14 you got to the last two (2) pages of the extract that 15 I've provided to you from Exhibit P-517, it refers to his 16 notes of a meeting at 5:30 on September the 7th. And Mr. 17 Patrick testified that he believed you attended the 18 meeting. And the meeting was attended by Mr. Runciman, 19 Mr. Harnick, Mr. Hodgson, their deputies, the Chief 20 Coroner. 21 Do you -- does that assist with respect to 22 -- with respect to your memory? 23 A: I don't specifically recall this 24 meeting. If the Ministers were in attendance with the 25 executive assistants, then likely I would have been in
841 attendance. 2 Q: But, you don't remember? 3 A: I don't specifically recall, no. 4 Q: Do you have any recollection, when 5 you say "specifically"? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Now, on September the 8th, as I 8 understand it, there were a number of, excuse me, let me 9 just take that back. 10 Could I take you to Tab 1 of the book? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And this is Inquiry Document 1001147 15 and it's entitling, Managing Aboriginal Relations During 16 the Ipperwash Incident. And can you tell me if you've 17 seen this document before? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what was this document? 20 A: I believe this document was prepared 21 by members of the bureaucracy so that we could set up -- 22 so that I, specifically, could set up a series of phone 23 calls for the Minister. 24 Q: And the document refers to the Chief 25 of Kettle and Stony Point First Nation, the Union of
851 Ontario Indians, the Chiefs of Ontario, the Assembly of 2 First Nations. And did you set up calls with the 3 individuals at those four (4) organizations? 4 A: I believe I did, yes. 5 Q: And at Tab 44... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Excuse me, at Tab 45, there's a draft 10 transcript of a telephone call with the First Nations 11 leaders. It's Inquiry Document 1000986. Although it 12 says September the -- June 8th, it has to be September 13 the 8th. 14 Did you participate in a conference call 15 with your Minister on September the 8th? 16 A: Not that I specifically recall. 17 Q: Do you recall the Minister speaking 18 to -- having made calls to the individuals that -- from 19 the Union of Ontario Indians, the Chief, the Assembly of 20 First Nations on September the 8th? 21 A: Yes, I believe he did. 22 Q: So you set up the calls and he -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- made the calls? 25 A: Yes.
861 Q: At Tab 44 there's a media summary 2 note that refers to a conversation with Mr. Peters on 3 September the 8th at 4:11 p.m. where it relates that Mr. 4 Peters who is from the Chiefs of Ontario, the head of the 5 Chiefs of Ontario at the time, that they'd been speaking 6 to Runciman? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Had you -- had you seen this document 9 before? 10 A: Yes, in preparation for today. 11 Q: But did you see this document back in 12 June -- September '95? 13 A: Again, likely I did as part of a 14 media clippings package I would have received daily. 15 Q: But you don't -- 16 A: But I don't have a specific 17 recollection of this clipping. 18 Q: But Mr. Runciman did make the calls? 19 A: I believe he did, yes. 20 Q: Now, can I take you back to -- before 21 I go back to something, part of the group of materials 22 that I've put in the yellow binder, there's another set 23 of notes from Mr. Scott Patrick. They were marked 24 Exhibit P-766. 25 And I may have misspoke -- I did misspoke
871 myself. I said that Mr. Patrick said that you had 2 attended the meeting on September the 7th. It -- I was 3 really actually referring to this meeting on September 4 8th at 4:30 in the afternoon. 5 Do you recall a meeting on the afternoon 6 of September 8th, 1995 with Minister Hodgson, Mr. 7 Harnick, Mr. Runciman and their Deputies and other EA's? 8 A: No, not specifically. 9 Q: And the notes refer to Runciman 10 calls, in the middle, and his report on those calls. 11 Does that assist in your recollection? 12 A: Well I think it just refers to those 13 calls we were previously speaking about. 14 Q: But you don't have any memory of this 15 meeting? 16 A: Of -- of the meeting, no. 17 Q: Then... 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Before I move on -- before I move on 22 I want to take you back to September the 6th. Excuse me 23 for one (1) moment, Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 25
881 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: In front of you I've provided you a - 5 - at Tab 51 there is a copy of Exhibit P-594. It's 6 Inquiry Document 2001053. 7 And I've placed before you a copy of 8 Inquiry Document 1011585. And this document also has 9 Inquiry Document 300701 and appears at Tab 51 of Exhibit 10 529, the cross-examination brief for Mr. Fox by Mr. 11 Downard. 12 The copy at Tab 51 marked Exhibit P-594 13 has marked on it, "Not circulated". The copy that I've 14 provided to you with Inquiry Document 10011585 does not 15 have that on it. 16 Do you recall seeing either of these issue 17 notes on September 6th, 1995? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And perhaps for the record, we could 20 mark 1011585 as the next exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-930, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-930: Document Number 1011585. 24 MSGCS Issue Note, Version 25 number 1, Issue: Ministerial
891 Role re. OPP Operational 2 Matters, Sept. 06/'95, 10:30 3 A.M. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And do you know who Dianne Dougall 7 (phonetic) was on September the 6th, 1995? 8 A: I believe she was Director of Legal 9 Services for the Ministry of the Solicitor General and 10 Correctional Services. 11 Q: And do your have any idea why one (1) 12 copy, Exhibit P- -- was the exhibit number? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-930. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: P-930. Does -- it appears to be an 17 issue note and the other copy P-594 is marked, "Not 18 Circulated?" 19 A: I have no idea. 20 Q: And do you recall seeing either of 21 these notes on September the 6th? 22 A: I don't specifically recall. If it 23 was circulated then it's likely that I did receive a 24 copy. 25 Q: If it was circulated. But you don't
901 know? 2 A: Yes, exactly. 3 Q: And do you agree with the statements 4 set out in either Exhibit P-930 or Exhibit P-594 with 5 respect to the role of the Minister insofar as the 6 Ontario Provincial Police is concerned? 7 A: Yes, although under "Summary", bullet 8 number 5 it -- it's having the Minister -- so it says: 9 "The Minister may, through the Deputy 10 Minister, bring to the attention of the 11 Commissioner of the OPP the approp -- 12 the apparent unlawful actions of an 13 individual or group." 14 I agree with that. 15 "And ask to be informed on the general 16 activities of the OPP as they per -- 17 pertain to the investigation." 18 That wouldn't -- that's not my 19 understanding of what the Solicitor General should have 20 received; the type of information he should have 21 received. 22 Q: So, the Solicitor General, it was 23 your understanding, should not ask to be informed of the 24 general activities of the OPP as it pertained to an 25 investigation?
911 A: To a specific investigation because 2 that would be operational. 3 Q: And the issues notes that we looked 4 at talked about -- provided information to you or to your 5 department with respect to what the OPP was doing. Did 6 those issue notes trans -- transgress what you think to 7 be the -- the proper division? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And with respect to either P-594 or 10 P-930, bullet 1; do you agree with that? 11 A: Yes, under, "Position?" 12 Q: The first bullet under, "Summary?" 13 A: Under -- under -- oh, under, 14 "Summary?" Sorry. 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the second one, "Rationale"? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the third one: 20 "Although the police have the duty to 21 enforce the law police officers must 22 exercise their discretion when deciding 23 the appropriate action to be taken." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then the fourth one, The Trespass
921 to Property Act; do you agree with that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: We spoke about the fifth one. 4 The sixth one: 5 "Canadian courts upheld that police 6 officers are independent as to the 7 manner of discharging their duties and 8 are not servants or agents of the 9 appointing authority." 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Was that your understanding as well, 12 back on September the 6th? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the last three (3) bullets deal 15 with an injunction. Did you have any knowledge with 16 respect to injunctions beyond what you've told us on 17 September the 6th? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And do you have any idea if those 20 last three (3) bullet points are correct or not? 21 A: No, I do not. 22 Q: Then... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
931 Q: If I could take you to Tab 23. It's 2 Inquiry Document 1008858. It's part of -- it's Exhibit 3 P-518. 4 There are a number of documents that are 5 appended to this and it's actually been -- the date on it 6 of the fax cover sheet is September 13, not -- even 7 though on the header it's September 13 and the documents 8 relate to events later than September the 8th. So, that 9 I believe, Commissioner, that the date September the 8th 10 must be an error. 11 And do you recall seeing the document at 12 pages 2 and 3, Historical Backgrounder? 13 A: Again I don't have a specific 14 recollection, but it's likely that I did receive this as 15 it was prepared by the Communications Branch of the 16 Ministry. 17 Q: And the document at page 4, Runciman 18 Meets with Ipperwash Area Leaders Residents? 19 A: Again likely yes, I did receive this 20 document. 21 Q: And did you participate -- did -- I 22 take it, Mr. Runciman -- we've heard evidence that he 23 attended in this area on September 12, 1995? 24 A: Yes, I recall that but I did not -- 25 Q: You did not --
941 A: -- go with him, no. 2 Q: Okay. And the statement of Mr. 3 Harris, Premier Harris, September 12th that's at the next 4 page? 5 A: You know, again I would have seen 6 this, but I didn't specifically recall it. 7 Q: And the document, Clarification of 8 Events, Ontario Provincial Police, dated September 7, 9 1995; do you recall receiving it? 10 A: Not specifically. 11 Q: And what about the chronology of 12 events that comes next? 13 A: No. I don't -- I don't specifically 14 recall this. 15 Q: And the other items that are in this 16 are a number of press releases. 17 Do you recall seeing those? 18 A: You know, it's likely that I did see 19 them, but I -- 20 Q: You don't -- 21 A: -- don't specifically recall. 22 Q: Okay. Now, at Tab 18, there's a copy 23 of Exhibit P-661. It's Inquiry document 1001558 and it's 24 a letter from Mr. Runciman to Mr. Gray dated September 25 the 7th. And it's with respect to certain equipment and
951 it's actually P-599, Commissioner, I'm sorry. Inquiry 2 document 1001558. 3 Do you recall -- did you participate in 4 any discussions with respect to requesting equipment from 5 the Federal Government? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Can you tell us what role you played 8 and what happened? 9 A: As I recall, I was approached by Barb 10 Taylor, who was the OPP officer who was in the deputy 11 Minister's office, and she indicated that the OPP would 12 like to request some equipment from the Federal 13 Government, but because it was another level of 14 Government, they'd like the request to be government to 15 government, minister to minister. 16 And so based on that conversation, a 17 briefing was arranged for the minister; he was briefed 18 and as I recall, he signed the letter and it was sent. 19 Q: And at Tab 46, there appear -- 20 there's a letter dated September 8, 1995 from Mr. Gray to 21 Mr. Runciman and there's a stamp: 22 "Received September 14, 1995, Ministry 23 of the Solicitor General and 24 Correctional Services." 25 Do you recall seeing this letter back in
961 September? 2 A: I don't specifically recall it, but 3 likely I did receive it. 4 Q: And I don't think this document, 5 Inquiry document 1001561 has been marked as an exhibit. 6 Perhaps you would mark it the next exhibit? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-931, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-931: Document Number 1001561. 10 Letter to Robert Runciman 11 from the Hon. Herb Gray, 12 Sept. 08/95. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And then this letter from Mr. Gray 16 indicates that the OPP should speak to the Department of 17 National Defence? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then at Tab 48, there's a copy of 20 a letter dated September 19, 1995 from Mr. Runciman back 21 to Mr. Gray and did you participate in preparing -- in 22 this letter being sent? 23 A: I don't specifically recall the 24 second letter. 25 Q: Okay.
971 A: So, no, I don't believe I was 2 involved. 3 Q: And at the next tab, Tab 49, there's 4 a letter dated October 3rd, 1995 from Mr. Gray to Mr. 5 Runciman. It's marked as logged in by the deputy 6 Minister's office, anyway, on October 17, 1995. 7 Do you recall seeing this letter? 8 A: Again, I don't specifically recall 9 seeing the letter. 10 Q: Commissioner, I suggest that we mark 11 these now because Ms. -- we'll be dealing with these with 12 Mr. Runciman? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The first one, 15 September 19th, 1995, Inquiry document 1001204 would be 16 the next exhibit. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-932. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-932: Document Number 1001204. 20 Letter to the Hon. Herb Gray 21 from Robert Runciman 22 September 19/'95. 23 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Inquiry document 25 1001563, dated October 3, 1995, would be P-933.
981 THE REGISTRAR: Right. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-933: Document Number 1001563. 4 Letter to The Hon. Herb Gray 5 to Robert Runciman. October 6 03/'95. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And during the fall of 1995 what 10 role, if any, did you play with respect to the matters at 11 Ipperwash? 12 A: I don't recall having any role. 13 Q: And is there anything else you wish 14 to add? 15 A: No. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Those are my 17 questions, Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could 20 canvas -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does anybody 22 have any questions for Ms. Hunt? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Downard...? 24 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Fifteen (15) minutes 25 or less.
991 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Then Mr. Smith...? 2 MR. IAN SMITH: About the same, fifteen 3 (15) minutes or less. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 5 Mr. -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Perschy...? 7 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: The same as -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Fifteen (15) minutes 9 or less for Ms. Perschy for Ms. Hutton. Then -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 11 Alexander...? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I'm 14 sorry, Ms. Twohig. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Twohig, on our new 16 list, goes before so -- 17 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Ten (10) minutes. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ten (10) minutes for 19 the Province. 20 Mr. Alexander...? 21 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Fifteen (15) 22 minutes or less. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Rosenthal...? 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thirty (30) 25 minutes.
1001 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Rosenthal about a 2 half an hour -- thirty (30) minutes. 3 Mr. Scullion...? 4 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Fifteen (15) minutes 5 or less. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Fifteen (15) minutes 7 or less for Mr. Scullion. 8 And Mr. Roy...? 9 MR. JULIAN ROY: About half an hour, 10 depending on what's -- 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thirty (30) minutes 12 for Mr. Roy. 13 And Commissioner, I think everyone's 14 agreed but Mr. Smith, on behalf of Mr. Runciman, has 15 asked if he could go out of order because of -- he needs 16 to be in attendance somewhere this afternoon. And I 17 think that's agreed. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When do you 19 -- when is he going to go; like up first, right now? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Right now. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. All 22 right. I don't see any problem with that. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1011 MR. IAN SMITH: Thank you, Commissioner. 2 And I thank My Friends for agreeing to let me go out of 3 order. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN SMITH: 6 Q: Ms. Hunt, I am Ian Smith and I act 7 for Mr. Runciman and I just have a few questions for you. 8 And I want to start by addressing what you and Mr. 9 Runciman were doing in the summer of 1995. 10 First, I take it you came on board early 11 in July of that year with Mr. Runciman. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I -- I take it that the first 14 order of business was to prepare briefing books and so 15 on, for the Minister; is that fair? 16 A: I would say the first order of 17 business was the briefing of the Minister which was done 18 based on material prepared by the bureaucracy. 19 Q: Okay. And that took up much of July; 20 is that fair? 21 A: It did. 22 Q: And I take it, also during that time 23 Mr. Runciman was meeting the key people who he would have 24 to be dealing with as the Minister of the Solicitor 25 General and Correctional Services?
1021 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I take it that -- well you tell 3 me. 4 Were there many policy initiatives 5 undertaken right at the beginning, say before September? 6 A: There was one (1) large policy issue 7 that was given to the Solicitor General and that was the 8 cancellation of photo radar. And that was part of the 9 Minister of Finance's first economic statement which I 10 believe was at the end of July. 11 Q: Okay. And I take it that -- then 12 apart from that, the first sort of policy initiative you 13 undertook with Mr. Runciman was work on the Police Act; 14 is that fair? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did that happen over the course 17 of the summer? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And did you undertake a review of the 20 Ministry's budget during the summer? 21 A: Yes. There was the original 22 statement in July and then there was -- work began late 23 summer, early fall on the next financial statement. So 24 there was work being done on -- on budget matters. 25 Q: And I take it from the answers you
1031 gave to Mr. Millar in-chief, that the only briefing you 2 recall, respecting First Nations issues, had to do with 3 these tripartite agreements -- 4 A: The First Nation policing contracts. 5 Q: Right. And that was provided by Mr. 6 Fox; is that right? 7 A: That's my recollection, yes. 8 Q: And do you have any recollection of 9 any other briefing with respect to Aboriginal issues? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And is that -- is that -- can I 12 suggest that's because Aboriginal issues were, in the 13 main, being dealt with by ONAS? 14 A: Yes, which was the responsibility of 15 the Attorney General. 16 Q: Prior to September 4th, Ms. Hunt, do 17 you have any recollection of Mr. Runciman discussing the 18 Ipperwash issue at all? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Now, you've also said that the 21 Minister was briefed on the separation of 22 responsibilities between the OPP and -- and his office, 23 but I -- I got the impression from your evidence in-chief 24 that he really didn't need that briefing; is that fair? 25 A: I think that's fair, because in
1041 opposition he had been the critic for the same portfolio 2 and other Ministers had lost their portfolios when they 3 had crossed the line. 4 Q: So it wasn't just a matter of him 5 being told what the issue was, he was telling you and 6 others in the office that this was an important policy to 7 be adhered to? 8 A: Yes, that's correct. 9 Q: And is it fair to say as a result of 10 that, that people in the Minister's office and the deputy 11 Minister's office were careful about that issue? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I'm happy to say, Commissioner, that 14 Mr. Millar has stolen many of my questions so I'm cutting 15 some of them out. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He is very 17 thorough. 18 MR. IAN SMITH: Yes. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN SMITH: 21 Q: I want to skip ahead, then, to the -- 22 to the IMC meetings of September 5th and 6th which you've 23 testified you've sort of blended them together in your 24 mind and so I'm going to deal with them together. 25 Prior to attending those meetings, do you
1051 know if Mr. Runciman knew you were going to those 2 meetings? 3 A: No. I don't specifically recall how 4 he was invited to the meetings. 5 Q: Okay. Now it appears from the 6 minutes and the notes we've seen and from your testimony 7 that you didn't really say very much at either of these 8 two (2) meetings; is that fair? 9 A: Yes, that's my recollection. 10 Q: You've reported to us that there was 11 some tension in the room and a sense of urgency. Is it 12 fair to say that nothing you said contributed to that 13 tension or sense of urgency? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: But you did emphasize this important 19 division between the roles of the Minister and the OPP 20 and that's fairly clear from what we've heard? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Do you recollect taking any other 23 position on any other issue on behalf of Mr. Runciman at 24 either of these two (2) meetings? 25 A: No.
1061 Q: Can I suggest to you, Ms. Hunt, that 2 the -- that the Ipperwash file, if I can put it that way, 3 was really not much more than a watching brief for -- for 4 you and Mr. Runciman, and I'll suggest that in particular 5 because of the following. 6 First of all, the Ministry of Natural 7 Resources were the owners of the Park and custodians of 8 the Park, the Attorney General was going to be seeking 9 the injunction and there was this division between you 10 and the ability to direct the OPP. 11 So there wasn't really much for the -- for 12 you and Mr. Runciman to do on this file; is that fair? 13 A: Yes. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Turning then to the -- to the dining 18 room meeting, as we've been calling it, on the 6th, I 19 just want to make sure I got this from your evidence in- 20 chief. 21 Do you have any recollection of Mr. 22 Runciman saying anything at that meeting? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you have a recollection of him 25 taking any kind of position or expressing a strong
1071 opinion, one way or the other, about what should be done? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Do you have any recollection of Mr. 4 Runciman at that meeting giving any direction to the OPP 5 through Ron Fox or through anyone else for that matter? 6 A: No. 7 Q: I think it's fair to say from 8 listening to your evidence in-chief, Ms. Hunt, that you 9 don't have much of a recollection of any of these three 10 (3) meetings, and is it -- can I suggest that it -- that 11 it's possible that the reason you don't have much of a 12 recollection is precisely because this was just a 13 watching brief for -- for you and Mr. Runciman? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And for example, the minutes that we 16 saw of the IMC meeting, where they refer to next steps 17 and so on, they don't really say that there are any next 18 steps for you to take; is that fair? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And with respect to the dining room 21 meeting, do you remember that there was any next step 22 that you were required to take as a result of what 23 happened there? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you know, Ms. Hunt, that Ron Fox
1081 was communicating with Inspector Carson during the course 2 of the occupation? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Now, in any of your meetings with -- 5 with Mr. Runciman, either the dining room meeting or any 6 of your own briefings with him or other discussions with 7 him, did he ever express to you any strong opinion about 8 what should be done with respect to the occupation of the 9 Park? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Do -- do you remember him taking any 12 kind of specific position about it at all? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Was he content, then, just to rely on 15 the expertise of the OPP in the matter? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Did Mr. Runciman have any kind of 18 view about the expertise of the OPP? 19 A: Yes, the Minister had high regard for 20 the professionals in the OPP. 21 Q: And I take it Mr. Runciman was 22 content to let the other ministries involved, that is 23 Natural Resources and the Attorney General, take the lead 24 on this particular file? 25 A: Yes.
1091 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: In response to questions from My 4 Friend Mr. Millar you indicated that you gave no 5 directions to the OPP; is that right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you said that you didn't think 8 Mr. Runciman did either and that the reason you thought 9 that was because of a sense you had about his knowledge 10 of the division of responsibilities between the OPP and - 11 - and the Minister's office? 12 A: Yes, that's correct. 13 Q: Is it fair to say, though, that quite 14 apart from that sense you have absolutely no knowledge of 15 him giving any direction to the OPP with respect to the 16 Ipperwash situation? 17 A: Yes, no knowledge. 18 Q: Thank you. 19 Commissioner, those are all my questions. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Mr. Smith. 22 Mr. Downard...? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1101 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Good morning, 2 Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 4 morning. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 7 Q: Ms. Hunt, my name's Peter Downard and 8 I appear for the former Ontario Premier Mike Harris and I 9 have to go get a document. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: If I can refer you to Tab 37 of your 14 brief, which is the Ministry of the Solicitor General of 15 Correctional Services issue note dated August 2, 1995, 16 Version 4, Inquiry Document Number 2000984. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 21 563. 22 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Exhibit P-563. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 25 Q: Now, I believe that you told Mr.
1111 Millar that you did not consider that the Ministry of the 2 Solicitor General had received information about the OPP 3 that it should not have received in the issue notes that 4 he reviewed with you, including this one, correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And in particular, just by way of 7 example, if we look at Tab 37 and the -- the bottom of 8 the second last bullet on the page, there is information 9 provided that, quote: 10 "Military and OPP personnel met to 11 confirm future strategy for enforcement 12 action concerning criminal violations 13 on Camp Ipperwash. It was agreed that 14 -- agreed the OPP would take all 15 enforcement action and..." Unquote. 16 I'll leave it at that for now. 17 So I take it you would agree that that 18 would be appropriate information for your ministry to 19 have received? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And likewise on the next page, the 22 fourth bullet there is a statement that, quote: 23 "The OPP are monitoring the occupation. 24 There has been no overt criminal 25 activity. Patrols are being conducted
1121 around the perimeter of the base." 2 Unquote. 3 That, again, would be appropriate 4 information? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And likewise the last bullet before 7 the heading "Follow Up" towards the bottom of the page, 8 quote: 9 "OPP staff met with the spokesperson 10 for the occupiers of the military base. 11 It was agreed that the barricade at the 12 Park would be removed and the 13 dissidents would stop harassing Park 14 users. 15 It was also agreed OPP patrols are 16 necessary for safety." Unquote. 17 And again, that would be an example of 18 appropriate information for your Minister to receive? 19 A: Yes. Again, I always thought it was 20 two (2) ways, that we were not to interfere in the day to 21 day operations of the OPP and that -- that the set up in 22 the deputy Minister's office was such that the OPP did 23 not provide inappropriate information to the Minister 24 that would have got him into difficulty. 25 Q: And if we look back at the bottom of
1131 the first page, there's a staff contact, Phil Duffield? 2 Do you see that at the bottom of the page? 3 A: Sorry, what page are we on? 4 Q: This is the first page of Tab 37. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Now, perhaps Mr. Millar covered this 7 and I missed it, but who was Phil Duffield? 8 A: You know, I don't specifically 9 recall. I would assume he was a member of the OPP who 10 worked up in Orillia. Orillia, the headquarters in 11 Orillia? 12 Q: I see, and you're just taking that 13 from the document? 14 A: Exactly. 15 Q: Okay, thank you. Now, coming to the 16 September 5th Interministerial Committee meeting, I just 17 want to ask you a couple of questions about that. 18 Do you recall any discussion in that 19 meeting or, I suppose, in the September 6th meeting as 20 well, given that your recollection is -- is blended as 21 you say, about the local Indian Act Band, the Kettle and 22 Stony Point First Nation or its Chief, Tom Bressette, 23 having -- having a concern about the occupation at the 24 Park? 25 A: No.
1141 Q: And with respect to Inspector Fox, do 2 you recall Inspector Fox ever stating something along the 3 lines of the longer the occupiers are -- are in the Park, 4 the more familiar they become with their surroundings and 5 the more difficult it becomes to remove them? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And I'll come to the September 6th 8 meeting. 9 Did you form a view in the course of that 10 meeting and, again, you can bring in September 5th as 11 well if you wish, that there was a particular conflict 12 that was apparent between Inspector Fox and Debbie 13 Hutton? 14 A: No. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now, if someone were to say that the 19 -- the whole group at the September 5th Interministerial 20 Committee meeting was on a testosterone high, would that 21 be consistent with your recollection of the meeting? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Would that strike you as being an 24 exaggeration? 25 A: How I can answer that is saying that
1151 I was surprised when I heard those media reports, because 2 Ron Fox was always very professional and measured in what 3 he -- the information he provided to me and the Minister. 4 Q: And so then I take it that you've 5 heard a media report of Inspector Fox characterising the 6 group at the September 5th Interministerial Committee 7 meeting as having been on a testosterone high? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: All right. And that didn't strike 10 you as being a careful and measured statement? 11 A: That's correct, yes. 12 Q: Now, coming to the dining room 13 meeting, I'm going to be a little bit -- perhaps, too 14 particular, you told Mr. Millar that you didn't recall 15 Inspector Fox being introduced at the meeting. 16 Do you have any recollection of him being 17 announced as he entered the meeting by someone in a loud 18 voice? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And I know you said that you didn't 21 recall anything that the -- the Premier said in the 22 meeting, but I want to put a few specific points to you 23 just to make sure they're covered off. 24 Do you recall the Premier ever saying in 25 the dining room meeting words to the effect that:
1161 "We have tried to pacify and pander to 2 these people for too long. It's now 3 time for swift, authoritative action?" 4 A: No. 5 Q: Or swift, affirmative action? 6 A: No. 7 Q: If he had said that in your presence 8 do you think you would remember it? 9 A: I have no idea. 10 Q: Okay. Do you recall the Premier ever 11 saying in this meeting that the OPP had made mistakes in 12 this, they should have just gone in? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Do you recall the Premier ever saying 15 words to the effect that this story or this information 16 about the occupation of the Park will -- will come out 17 some day and at that time the OPP will have to account 18 for their actions? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you form a view at the dining 21 room meeting that the -- the Premier believed he had the 22 authority to direct the OPP? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you recall anything occurring in - 25 - in the meeting that would justify such a conclusion?
1171 A: No. 2 Q: Did you -- did you -- well, I can put 3 it this way, do you recall observing anything in the 4 dining room meeting that would justify a conclusion that 5 the Government of Premier Harris was a redneck 6 government? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Do you recall observing anything in 9 the dining room meeting that would justify the conclusion 10 that the Government of Premier Harris were just in love 11 with guns? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Now, I want to come to the -- a call 14 that Inspector Fox made to the incident commander John 15 Carson on the scene at Ipperwash after the dining room 16 meeting. 17 And in particular a statement that 18 Inspector Fox attributed to the -- the Premier that I've 19 referred you to already that the OPP had made mistakes on 20 this, they should have just gone in. 21 Now, setting aside the question for -- 22 obviously I have a position on that, but setting aside 23 the question of whether that was an accurate report or 24 not of what was said at the meeting, given your 25 understanding of the separation of government and police
1181 would that have been an appropriate communication for 2 Inspector Fox to make to the incident commander on the 3 scene at Ipperwash? 4 A: I don't -- I don't think I can speak 5 to that point. I mean, you know, I wasn't aware that 6 that communication was ongoing and, you know, the -- what 7 the -- what OPP officers shared with other OPP officers 8 wasn't something that I -- I would have an opinion on. 9 Q: Thank you very much. Those are my 10 questions. 11 A: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 13 Mr. Downard. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could break 15 now for lunch or we can go onto the next one. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, who's 17 next, is it Anna Perschy? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Perschy. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 20 to break now for lunch or do you want to start? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, why don't we 22 deal with for ten (10) minutes with Ms. Perschy? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 24 continue for a bit? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes.
1191 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't 2 you start, Ms. Perschy? 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't have -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm just 5 wondering if you have a reason for wanting to break only. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no, no. I just 7 don't have a witness for this afternoon, so -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we're not 9 in any hurry. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll finish 12 this witness today. We won't have -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The sooner we finish 14 her the better because then she can go home in the 15 daylight, so... 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So why don't we go for 18 a ten (10) minute... 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 20 start. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Why don't we deal with 22 Ms. Perschy and have a break after Ms. Perschy's 23 finished. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 Ms. Perschy, why don't you start?
1201 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Good morning, 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 morning. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 9 Q: Good morning, Ms. Hunt. 10 A: Good morning. 11 Q: My name is Anna Perschy as you heard 12 from -- from the conversation and I represent Deb Hutton 13 who as you know was the Executive Assistant to Premier 14 Harris at the time in question. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: I just had a few questions for you 17 today. You mentioned that you had attended a couple of 18 Interministerial Committee meetings on September the 5th 19 and 6th, 1995. 20 And I take it from -- from what you said 21 that in your position as an Executive Assistant, you 22 attended these meetings with the expectation that you 23 would brief your Minister regarding any issues that were 24 relevant to his Ministry that came out of these meetings? 25 A: Yes.
1211 Q: And I take it that you would have 2 expected that the other political staff who attended 3 these meetings would have -- would have also done the 4 same thing? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I take it that you would expect 7 to ask questions at these meetings if you needed more 8 information in order to properly brief your Minister? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now you -- Mr. Millar took you at one 11 point to Eileen Hipfner's notes and I was just going to 12 do that very briefly. 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: I believe they're at Tab 7 of the 15 additional binder that you have. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The September 6th 17 notes? 18 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Yes, the September 6th 19 notes. 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 23 Q: And I believe he took you -- it's Tab 24 8, my apologies. P-636 and I believe it's Document 25 Number for the assistance of my colleagues, 1011784.
1221 And Mr. Millar had taken you to the 2 notations that are attributed to you with respect to your 3 comments regarding the protocol and I just wanted to turn 4 your attention to some of the comments that came before 5 that. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: I'm looking at -- I believe it's the 8 fourth page in with the number 3 at the top. There's a 9 heading, Direction From Ministries. And then there's a 10 notation attributed to Mr. Bangs: 11 "Went to Minister with plan, develop 12 table, he spoke to eight (8) to ten 13 (10) media outlets. The way things are 14 escalating the Minister doesn't want to 15 carry this. Especially with threat to 16 nearby lands. 17 MNR upset because situation has not 18 been contained to military base. 19 Gunfire, damage to Park property. Are 20 they digging trenches? 21 This is quickly spiralling out of MNR's 22 hands." 23 And then below that there's the reference: 24 "Also question of what Minister can say 25 if OPP are handling this and especially
1231 now that charges have been laid." 2 And then there's a comment attributed to 3 Dave Moran: 4 "Can't have OPP speak on behalf of 5 government. Harnick clear if AG is 6 being asked to seek injunction will do 7 so ASAP. With regard to public 8 carriage of the issue we're open to 9 direction from the centre." 10 And then the comment attributed to you is: 11 "Runciman's reservation comes from the 12 fact that Sol Gen's protocol is not to 13 be involved in day to day operation. 14 Police political arm should be 15 divorced." 16 And I was just wondering, does that 17 refresh your recollection regarding the context for your 18 comment? Does it assist? 19 A: I don't specifically recall the 20 conversation about who would speak on the issue on behalf 21 of the Government. 22 Q: Okay. Fair enough. I appreciate 23 that it's been ten (10) years. And Mr. Millar took you 24 to another passage and this was in Julie Jai's notes. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 9.
1241 2 CONTINUED BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 3 Q: Yes, I've just been advised it's Tab 4 9. And for the assistance of My Friends, again this is 5 Document Number 1012579. 6 And if you could turn to page 7, these are 7 the notes -- these notes -- both the notes from September 8 5th and 6th. If you can turn to the notes of September 9 6th. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And Commission Counsel took you to 14 the passage: 15 "Deb: Feels MNR as property owner can 16 ask OPP to remove the people. Scott: 17 Can you ask them to remove them, you 18 can't insist or demand that they be 19 removed." And -- 20 A: I'm sorry, I'm not on the same page. 21 Q: Sorry. It's -- 22 A: It's "7" at the top of the page, a 23 handwritten "7", is that what -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- I'm looking at?
1251 Q: I believe so. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Maybe I'm in the wrong set of 6 minutes. Just one second. 7 Yes, I'm sorry. I was in the wrong -- I 8 was in the 5th's minutes. Okay, I have it. 9 Q: My apologies. It's actually the 10 number"6" at the top. I think it's -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- 7 pages in, that's what confused 13 me. 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: And Mr. Millar had taken you to some 16 of these references and I just wanted to read some of the 17 additional comments and see if that assisted your 18 recollection. 19 Below the ones that I've just referred to, 20 there's the notation: 21 "Deb: Has MNR asked OPP to remove 22 them? They could be formally requested 23 to do so but how and when they do it is 24 up to them. Could have that as a 25 communication message. MNR has
1261 formally asked that they remove them." 2 And I was just wondering, do you recall -- 3 sorry, do you -- do you recall having reviewed these 4 notes, does that assist your recollection in any way that 5 there was a conversation with respect to communication 6 messages in this regard? 7 A: I don't specifically recall. 8 Q: You may not recall, but I take it 9 that you would have wanted to ensure that any 10 communications -- any communication messages that were 11 being discussed at the IMC would have reflected the 12 parameters of the -- the proper separation between the 13 Government and the police? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Is that fair? I'm sorry, that was? 16 A: Yes, that's fair. 17 Q: Now, you testified that it was your 18 impression that Deb Hutton, sort of, effectively had -- 19 had Chaired these meetings, and I was just wondering, 20 could your -- your impression in that regard have been 21 due to the fact that you were a political staff person, 22 she was the representative of the Premier's office and 23 you knew that you might have to liaise with her with 24 respect to the -- to the issues surrounding this issue in 25 fulfilling your responsibilities?
1271 A: Yes. 2 Q: At the end of the -- the -- the 3 meeting of September 6th, the recommendation from the 4 Interministerial Committee was to seek an injunction as 5 soon as possible. 6 Is that right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you attended the meeting in the 9 Premier's dining room and I take it that that 10 recommendation was passed on to the Ministers at that 11 meeting? 12 A: I don't specifically remember. I do 13 remember that that meeting was to discuss the injunction. 14 Q: And ultimately the Government decided 15 to seek an injunction and, in fact, proceeded the 16 following morning to seek an injunction. 17 You -- you recall that, you were aware of 18 that? 19 A: I wouldn't have been able to say that 20 it was the following morning but, yes, I was aware of the 21 injunction. 22 Q: Thank you. Those are all of my 23 questions. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 25 Ms. Perschy.
1281 We'll take a lunch break now. We'll take 2 a lunch break now. Thank you very much. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 4 adjourned until 1:15. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 11:59 a.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 1:15 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed. Please be seated. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Kim 12 Twohig is up. 13 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Thank you, Mr. 14 Commissioner. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KIM TWOHIG: 17 Q: Ms. Hunt, my name is Kim Twohig and I 18 act for the Province of Ontario. On September 6th when 19 you attended the Interministerial Committee meeting you 20 said that you brought up the issue of the importance of 21 the separation between the OPP and the Government because 22 you felt a need to educate some of your colleagues. 23 Do you remember that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: I take it by "colleagues," you meant
1291 political staff? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And in particular those who spoke at 4 the meeting? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Was it your belief that the OPP 7 officers who were seconded to the Ministry of the 8 Solicitor General and Correctional Services, understood 9 the need for that separation between the OPP and the 10 Government. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And what was the basis of your 13 belief? 14 A: They participated in all of the 15 briefings with the Minister and the Minister's staff and 16 in addition, just the way that they conducted themselves 17 on a day to day basis. 18 Q: Now given the common understanding of 19 that need for separation I believe you said that you 20 would not expect the OPP to share information. 21 Sorry, you would not expect the seconded 22 OPP officers to share with the Government any information 23 that was inappropriate? 24 A: Yes. That's correct. 25 Q: And by the same token would it be
1301 your expectation that the OPP officers would not share 2 with the OPP what had occurred at internal government 3 meetings and briefings? 4 A: I don't think I can speak for how OPP 5 officers spoke to OPP officers because that was not ever 6 any information that was conveyed to me. So that would 7 be a matter for the OPP. 8 Q: Okay. Would you have expected them 9 at all times, though, to act in a capacity as a Ministry 10 employee given that they were seconded to the Ministry? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Thank you, those are my questions. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 18 you're up next, Mr. Alexander. 19 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, 20 upon reflection and review, we have no questions for this 21 witness. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 I think that brings you up, Mr. Rosenthal. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1311 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you and good 2 afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 4 afternoon. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: Good afternoon, Ms. Hunt. My name is 8 -- sorry, you can say -- 9 A: Good afternoon. 10 Q: -- good afternoon. My name is Peter 11 Rosenthal; I'm representing some of the Stoney Point 12 people under the name Aazhoodena and George family group. 13 I want to ask you about several of the 14 issues that have arisen. 15 You told us that it seemed that to you 16 that Ms. Hutton was Chairing the meetings, right? Now -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: In any event, whether she was 19 following the Chair or not, she dominated the meetings; 20 that's what you mean to convey, right? 21 The meetings of September 5th and 6th -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- of course we're talking about? 24 A: I understand. It was my perception 25 that, yes, she was Chairing and she was asking a number
1321 of questions. 2 Q: And she dominated both meetings; 3 isn't that fair to say? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And she very forcefully put her 6 position on behalf of the Premier, that they wanted the 7 people out of the Park very quickly? 8 A: My recollection would be that there 9 was some tension in the room that would have arisen from 10 trying to determine options to deal with the issues in a 11 timely way. 12 Q: Yes. You told some Counsel that you 13 don't recall specifically her saying that the Premier was 14 hawkish on this issue, but would you agree that that 15 would be consistent with what she did say? 16 A: No, I don't have a specific 17 recollection of that statement, so. 18 Q: You don't have a recollection of this 19 statement specifically, but would you agree that the 20 statement itself, that the Premier being hawkish, might 21 be a -- an accurate description of what you do recall her 22 saying and her attitude in saying? 23 A: No, I won't agree to that, because -- 24 Q: I see. 25 A: -- I don't specifically recall.
1331 Q: Now, some people have told us that 2 they felt that her behaviour at the meeting, her manner 3 was imperious. 4 Can you understand why some people might 5 have concluded that from the way you recall her behaving 6 at the meeting? 7 A: I had worked with Debbie Hutton in 8 opposition and she was a strong personality but I was 9 very used to her personality, so. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: I didn't have that perception. 12 Q: But you can understand why people who 13 may not have been used to her might have made that 14 conclusion? 15 A: I would -- I would indicate that 16 Debbie has a very strong personality. 17 Q: Okay. I'll leave it at that. 18 Now, you indicated that there was this 19 sense of urgency at these meetings and I believe you 20 implicitly or maybe explicitly acknowledged that that 21 sense of urgency was created by Ms. Hutton and political 22 staff, not by the civil servants; right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- and the reason for the tension 25 that you told us about appeared to be at least in part
1341 that the civil servants wanted to go slower in a more 2 less urgent way, but there was this pressure to act 3 urgently; isn't that fair? 4 A: No, I -- I think, I don't think I can 5 speak for the civil servants and their -- their 6 perspective, but I think that there -- the meetings were 7 about information sharing and the development of options 8 to deal with the issue in a timely way. 9 Q: Now, you told the Counsel for Mr. 10 Harris that you didn't agree with the characterization 11 the whole group was on a testosterone high? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: But then perhaps the less picturesque 14 and not so grand terms, would you agree that some of the 15 people there, including Ms. Hutton, seemed to be putting 16 things in a forceful and aggressive manner? 17 A: I think that it's fair to say that, 18 you know, she's very strong a -- personality and so 19 therefore people might have had that perception. 20 Q: Okay. Now, you felt it was necessary 21 for you to educate Ms. Hutton and other political staff 22 about the distinction between the Solicitor General and 23 police and the fact that the Solicitor General could not 24 direct the police, right? 25 A: Yeah. That's my perception of why I
1351 made the statement, yes. 2 Q: Yes. And it was because some people 3 were speaking, at least, as if they thought the 4 Government could direct the police, right? 5 A: I think that I just had a sense that 6 -- that the role of the Solicitor General and -- had to 7 be clearly articulated as we'd received from briefings 8 from July of '95 on. 9 Q: But the reason that you felt you had 10 to articulate that, at that meeting, at that point, was 11 because some political staff seemed to have the 12 impression that the Government could direct the police. 13 Isn't that why you had to say that? 14 A: It's my perception that perhaps they 15 didn't have that information, so as part of the 16 information sharing session, I felt that I needed to say 17 that. 18 Q: But you don't agree that that was 19 triggered by your perceiving that they might have thought 20 they had the right to direct the police? 21 A: The -- yeah. There must -- I can't 22 specifically recall what was said that would have 23 triggered my need to indicate that there could be no 24 interference in the day-to-day operations of the 25 policing, but, yes, there was some kind of perception
1361 that I needed to make the statement. 2 Q: Yes. And even though you can't 3 recall specifically it had to be, looking at everything 4 you know about it, the fact that some of the political 5 staff there were giving the impression that they thought 6 the Government could direct the police and you had to put 7 them right on that? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: Isn't that -- isn't that the only 10 thing that could have triggered that? 11 A: I mean that -- that's my perception, 12 but I don't have a specific recollection of what was 13 said -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- prior to my making that statement. 16 Q: You don't have a specific 17 recollection as to the words, but it had to be in 18 response to the notion that was being advanced that the 19 Government could direct the police, right? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well... 21 THE WITNESS: Again I -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 23 THE WITNESS: -- that was my perception. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That was your -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've asked
1371 the question two (2) or three (3) times and got the same 2 answer each time. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, we got 4 slightly different answers, but in any event -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I'll move on. I 7 think I've got the answer now. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 11 Q: Now, we do have a recording in one 12 (1) person's notes as to some of the words that you might 13 have used and that -- that was a document that Mr. Millar 14 gave to you from -- not from his brief but from Mr. 15 Klippenstein's brief at Tab 8. 16 And for the rest of us who are not either 17 Mr. Klippenstein or Mr. Millar that was also -- it was 18 also in the documents produced yesterday for Mr. Moran in 19 Tab 11 of his brief, so any of you who have that could 20 look there, and it's also exhibit P-636 to these 21 proceedings, Document Number 1011784. 22 Now, these are the notes of Eileen Hipfner 23 of the meeting of September 6th and I should direct you 24 as you were partially to page 3. 25 About two-thirds (2/3's)of the way down
1381 page 3 -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: These are 3 the notes where page 4 and page 3 are inverted. We keep 4 coming to this. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In these 7 notes I believe page 4 and page 3 are reversed -- in 8 reverse order. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, they're in the 12 -- but it says, "page 3" on the top of the page that I 13 wish to refer to, all right? 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: And two-thirds (2/3's) of the way 19 down that page it says the word, "Hunt," and then it 20 says: 21 "Runciman's reservation comes from the 22 fact that Sol Gen's protocol is not to 23 be involved day-to-day operations of 24 police." 25 Now, can I take from that that you said
1391 something to the effect of your Minister's reservation 2 about the Government directing the police to do anything 3 comes from the fact that the protocol is not to be 4 involved day-to-day -- with day-to-day direction of 5 police? 6 A: I mean, I think that the Minister had 7 a very clear and understanding that there could be no -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- interference in the operations of 10 the OPP. As previously indicated, there appears to be 11 some dialogue about who will communicate on behalf of the 12 Government in the previous notes. 13 I hadn't -- I hadn't recalled that. But 14 that seems to be indicated by these notes. 15 Q: If you can assist us as to why Ms. 16 Hipfner might have written, "Runciman's reservation." 17 That seems to suggest a reservation in response to 18 something specific? Or does that help to jog your 19 memory -- 20 A: Or it could be that he not be the 21 lead communicator. You might interpret that he not be 22 the lead communicator. 23 Q: I see. So it might mean that there 24 was a question of who could communicate about the police 25 and you might have indicated that the Solicitor General
1401 specifically should not because of his protocol that 2 requires him not to be involved. Is that what you're -- 3 A: Well, you're asking me to speculate 4 on what somebody else intended by their notes. 5 Q: No. Excuse me, that's not what I'm 6 asking you to do. I'm asking you if you could please 7 turn your mind back to this meeting and try to 8 reconstruct, as best as possible, with the aid of any 9 notes and any thinking that you can do about it, what you 10 said to the meeting and why you said it? That's what I'm 11 asking you, just to be specific, okay. 12 So I'm suggesting to you that from what 13 you just said in response to my pointing the word 14 reservation, I took you to say and did I misunderstand 15 you or not, but I took you to say that you were 16 indicating that the Solicitor General, specifically, 17 shouldn't be the person to speak to this because of his 18 protocol with respect to the police. 19 Did you say that to me a few minutes ago 20 or no? 21 A: Yes. It think you could -- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: -- perhaps interpret that. 24 Q: Thank you. Now continuing in these 25 notes, on page 6 at the top -- towards the top of the
1411 page we see the name Fox and then we see the name Hunt 2 and is the statement next to the name Hunt: 3 "If we move them, no guarantee they 4 can't move right back." 5 You indicated you don't believe that you 6 made that expression of those words? 7 A: I have no recollection of -- of 8 saying that. 9 Q: Now you and Inspector Fox were -- 10 were you sitting together at these meetings? 11 A: Yes, that's my recollection. 12 Q: That's your recollection? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that -- that might have been a 15 viewpoint that perhaps Inspector Fox expressed; is that 16 correct? 17 A: Perhaps. Perhaps, yes. 18 Q: Now if you could turn to your Tab 12 19 please, which is Exhibit P-509 to these proceedings and 20 it's Inquiry Document Number 1011766. 21 If you could look at page 2 of that 22 document please. And these are -- this document I should 23 remind you is the meeting notes for the September 6th 24 Interministerial Committee meeting. And Mr. Millar took 25 you to part of, and I want to take you to the other part
1421 of what's under paragraph 3 SGC. He took you to the 2 first sentence: 3 "As a matter of protocol the SGC does 4 not involve itself in the day to day 5 operations of the OPP." 6 I won't belabour that point anymore. But 7 then in the second sentence is: 8 "The OPP will exercise it's discretion 9 regarding how to proceed in removing 10 the Stoney Pointers from the Park and 11 the laying of appropriate charges." 12 Now you were the person speaking on behalf 13 of the Solicitor General's Ministry at this meeting; is 14 that correct? 15 A: And Ron Fox. 16 Q: But what -- this information on the 17 Minister's directives, would that have come from you, 18 both sentences, or from Ron Fox or a combination of the 19 two (2) of you? 20 A: I believe the combination of the two 21 (2). 22 Q: I see. And the second sentence, are 23 you suggesting that was specifically from Ron Fox? 24 A: That speaks more to operational 25 matters. So I don't believe I would have made that
1431 statement. In the sense that it is the OPP's discretion, 2 it would have been up to Ron to make that statement. 3 Q: But that was consistent with your 4 understanding as well, right -- 5 A: It is consistent that -- 6 Q: -- that the OPP would exercise its 7 discretion? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And so you might have communicated 10 that as well? 11 A: I don't remember making that 12 statement. 13 Q: And now continuing on that page, 14 under "communications," the next to last line on that 15 page says: 16 "Police have been asked to remove the 17 occupiers from the Park." 18 Now do you recall that having been 19 mentioned at the meeting? 20 A: Not specifically, no. 21 Q: Not specifically? 22 A: No, I don't -- I do not recall. 23 Q: But you did have an understanding, by 24 the time of the Interministerial Committee meeting on 25 September 6th, that the police had been asked to remove
1441 the occupiers; is that not correct? 2 A: No, I believe my understanding by the 3 end of the meeting was that we -- the Government, through 4 the Attorney General would be proceeding with an 5 injunction. I don't -- 6 Q: Well -- if you look under 7 "Communications" there -- 8 A: I understand. 9 Q: It indicates that three (3) things 10 were still to happen, right? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: One is that the AG has been 13 instructed to seek an injunction as soon as possible, and 14 that's what you told us just now you recall, but also it 15 indicates that police have been asked to remove the 16 occupiers from the Park and then it has a third bullet 17 point in this paragraph: 18 "Public safety and removing the 19 trespassers from the Park are the key 20 objectives." 21 Now, you don't dispute that these were the 22 communication messages that emanated from this meeting, 23 do you? 24 A: No, but I don't have a specific 25 recollection of those points.
1451 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Can you assist us as to who would 4 have asked the police to remove the occupiers from the 5 Park; who meaning what Ministry, what persons, what 6 individuals? 7 A: No. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, perhaps if you could turn on -- 12 on that point to Tab 9 of your documents? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: To the notes of Ms. Jai and I'm 17 interested in the September 6th notes, which means it's 18 the first ones before September 5th, and page 4 thereof. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: If you look towards the bottom of 23 page 4: 24 "Agreed, we will seek an injunction 25 ASAP, Friday. [and] Criminal Code
1461 charges within police discretion. They 2 are trying to remove people." 3 Does that assist your memory as to 4 something like that being said at the September 6th 5 meeting, that the police are trying to remove people? 6 A: I did not recall that, no. 7 Q: I see. Okay. Now turning then to 8 another meeting of September 6th, the dining room 9 meeting. You told us that, in your view, Inspector Ron 10 Fox was seconded to your Ministry; is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Who asked him to attend the meeting 13 in the dining room? 14 A: I don't know. 15 Q: Well who made the decision that he 16 should attend? 17 A: I don't know. 18 Q: It had to be somebody in your 19 Ministry, presumably; is that correct? 20 A: I would think so, yes. 21 Q: And did you sit with Mr. Fox at that 22 meeting, as well? 23 A: No, that's not my recollection. 24 Q: I see. Did you -- do you recall -- 25 when you entered that meeting, did you enter with Mr.
1471 Runciman? 2 A: I can't specifically recall. The 3 Minister would have been coming from Cabinet. 4 Q: I'm sorry, the -- 5 A: There was a cab -- 6 Q: The request -- 7 A: There was a Cabinet -- I can't 8 specifically recall if I entered the room with the 9 Minister or not. 10 Q: I see, I'm sorry. I -- my hearing is 11 not very good, sorry. You said the Minister would have 12 been coming from Cabinet and -- 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: -- you were coming from a different 15 direction, perhaps, than -- 16 A: That -- 17 Q: -- anybody that -- 18 A: That's right, that's right. 19 Q: Well who told you to attend the 20 meeting? 21 A: I don't specifically recall. 22 Q: Well did -- 23 A: I don't know whether I received a 24 phone call or whether it was the deputy Minister. I 25 don't recall.
1481 Q: But Ron Fox could not have been at 2 that meeting unless somebody in your Ministry requested 3 he be there, presumably; isn't that fair? 4 A: I think that's likely, yes. 5 Q: And this was a meeting called by the 6 Premier's office, evidently; right? 7 A: I would think so, yes. 8 Q: And the Premier's office would not 9 have contacted Ron Fox directly, presumably? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And you don't have any recollection 12 though as to how Mr. Fox might have ended up at that 13 meeting? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Now, is it not true that Deputy 16 Attorney General Larry Taman spoke very forcefully at 17 that meeting about the need to separate government from 18 police? 19 A: I don't have that specific 20 recollection. 21 Q: Now, you -- you told us that you 22 conveyed that message to the Interministerial Committee 23 Meeting of September 6th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And do you recall that topic being
1491 discussed at all at the dining room meeting? 2 A: My recollection is that the 3 conversation was about injunction. 4 Q: Just injunctions, no other 5 discussion? 6 A: That -- that's my recollection; 7 that's what I recall. 8 Q: Well, what was said about injunctions 9 to your recollection? 10 A: I just remember that the Deputy 11 Attorney General and the Attorney General were the lead 12 speakers. 13 Q: Now, at the September 6th 14 Interministerial Committee Meeting there was at least the 15 notion floating around that perhaps the Government could 16 direct police officers and you spoke to that. 17 I won't -- we have your evidence -- I 18 won't belabour that again, but do you agree that at least 19 that notion was in the dining room at that dining room 20 meeting too that you attended? 21 There was at least the concept being 22 floated that perhaps the OPP could be directed by 23 somebody in the Government? 24 A: No, I don't have -- I don't recall 25 that. My recollection is that the conversation was about
1501 the injunction. 2 Q: Okay. Now, I'd like to quote to you 3 a little bit of Mr. Moran's testimony from yesterday. He 4 told us that although he didn't recall the Premier 5 referring to the holocaust directly that -- and for 6 anybody who wants to check my reading ability this is 7 yesterday's transcript beginning at page 29: 8 "The other thing that I think is 9 important to note is -- and I've read 10 some of the media coverage about the 11 Premier's comments and in focus of what 12 the Premier was trying to say and yes, 13 he was a little frustrated was that 14 it's important to act before things 15 escalate and before a tragedy occurs. 16 And the -- the -- the same people's 17 impression of the Premier's comments 18 surrounding in particular the holocaust 19 were taken out of context from a lack 20 of understanding." 21 And then he continued about relations with 22 the Jewish community and then he said at the bottom of 23 the page and continuing on the next page: 24 "And so what I took from the Premier's 25 comments was that it's really important
1511 for officials to act before a tragedy 2 occurs and yet I think that maybe 3 someone that was less familiar with the 4 situation of the history could have 5 taken those out of context and I think 6 that's what happened. Certainly I 7 didn't take anything that he had said 8 in a negative context with regard to 9 that." 10 Now, you've told us earlier you don't 11 specifically remember any words that the Premier said at 12 that meeting. 13 Does that assist you in any way as to 14 anything the Premier might have said? 15 A: No. 16 Q: It doesn't help you at all? 17 A: No. 18 Q: You don't remember a word that 19 Premier Harris said at that meeting? 20 A: I don't, no. 21 Q: Did you meet with the Premier 22 frequently? 23 A: No. 24 Q: How many other times did you meet 25 with the Premier?
1521 A: I can't recall an occasion where I 2 met with the Premier prior to that meeting but -- 3 Q: But what? 4 A: -- but I did meet when he was leader 5 of the Conservative Party in Opposition I did meet with 6 him then. 7 Q: You didn't meet with him as Premier 8 prior to that meeting, did you meet with him as Premier 9 subsequent to that meeting? 10 A: Over the course of the four (4) years 11 that I worked there there was an occasion where I think I 12 met with him over the contents of a throne speech, but I 13 can't recall any other occasion. 14 Q: And you met with him perhaps one (1) 15 other time in the course of your employment and his 16 tenure as premier? 17 A: That would be my recollection, yes. 18 Q: And the day after -- early morning 19 after this meeting with the Premier you heard about 20 Dudley George being killed, right? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And this became a matter of serious 23 controversy in the press and so on for a good ten (10) 24 years later on and off, isn't that fair? 25 A: That is fair, yes.
1531 Q: And you're telling us that you don't 2 remember one (1) word that the Premier said at that 3 meeting? You haven't thought about it since then and 4 reconstructed one (1) word that he said? Is that your 5 evidence? 6 A: That is my evidence. I do not 7 specifically recall what the Premier may have said. 8 Q: I see. Now you told us in your 9 evidence that -- I believe it was in response to a 10 question of Mr. Millar, that the Solicitor General could 11 inform the Commissioner of the OPP about an apparent 12 breach of the law but could not get into operational 13 details. 14 Is that correct? 15 A: Well we were referring to a very 16 specific document -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- that had been placed in front of 19 me. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Yes. And I was asked whether I 22 thought the first bullet was accurate and -- and I felt 23 that it was. 24 Q: And it's to the effect that I just 25 read, isn't that correct?
1541 A: Yes. That if -- if some action was 2 brought to his attention, he could through the Deputy 3 Minister inform the Commissioner of the OPP. 4 Q: Yes. And in your view would that 5 have made it permissible then for the Solicitor General 6 to have informed the Commissioner of the OPP that in his 7 view people at Ipperwash Park were breaking the law? 8 A: No. 9 Q: It would not. I see. 10 Now why would -- why would that -- if he 11 thought there was an apparent -- that that was apparent 12 breach of the law, why would he not according to your 13 understanding of that, be allowed to inform the OPP to 14 that effect? 15 A: I can't speak specifically for the 16 Solicitor General. I can only say that for this 17 particular issue, we felt that there could be no 18 interference in the day to day operations of the OPP. So 19 there was no communications directly to the OPP and there 20 was no communications through the Deputy Minister's 21 office. 22 Q: For this particular issue you just 23 said? 24 A: For the Ipperwash Provincial Park, 25 yes.
1551 Q: But wasn't there a general 2 prohibition against -- 3 A: But what that bullet speaks to is if 4 someone made the Minister aware of a criminal offence, 5 that he could inform the Deputy Minister. 6 Q: Yes. He -- who could inform the 7 Commissioner of the OPP? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And was it not stated by some people 10 within the Government that some of the meetings you were 11 at that the people, Stoney Point people in Ipperwash Park 12 were committing the criminal offence of mischief in their 13 view? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, yes. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well I think that -- 16 My Friend is being completely unfair to the witness. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 18 that too. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The -- the police were 20 there and on the scene. This is not being -- it's 21 Exhibit P-509 -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I couldn't 23 put my hands on the exhibit. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- 94 -- it's at the 25 last tab of your book, sir.
1561 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh that's 2 where it is, yes. Go ahead. Go ahead. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I truly think that 4 Mr. Millar is being entirely inappropriate and unfair to 5 counsel to suggest that I was being unfair to the 6 witness. And the transcript will show that I just 7 followed what she said. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And -- and the 10 police were there, yes, the police were there. But I'm 11 asking the question as to whether or not in her view and 12 she expressed a view to Mr. Millar about the meaning of 13 that document and whether or not it would have allowed 14 him to inform the Deputy Minister, to inform the 15 Commissioner about Ipperwash Park. 16 And she told us, no, and I was exploring 17 that answer and trying to find the distinction that she 18 was making and I was in the middle of doing that. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When you 20 move from the general to the specific, you have to be 21 very careful that you're fair to the witness. And I 22 think that's what's being referred to. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Indeed. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was just 25 looking --
1571 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And in my 2 respectful submission, I've been very careful. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, where 4 are you now? What stage -- 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm not sure where 6 I am now because interruptions -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 8 see. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- have the 10 unfortunate affect of destroying where anyone is. But I 11 will try to come -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 13 intervention -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- back if I may. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- all 16 right, let's see where you are. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 19 interventions are necessary and helpful so I hope you 20 understand that. Carry on. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I didn't find it 22 helpful I must say. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I wouldn't 24 expect you would but I do. So... 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Okay, well I will
1581 try to reconstruct now where I was. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 5 Q: As I understood your evidence you did 6 agree with a bullet point in a document that your 7 understanding was that the Solicitor General could if he 8 had the understanding that there was a breach of criminal 9 law anywhere, inform the Commissioner of the OPP through 10 the Deputy Solicitor General of that understanding. 11 Right? Okay. We have that to begin. 12 A: That is the bullet that -- 13 Q: And then I asked you -- I was just 14 trying to get back to some questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which bullet 16 point is that by the way. I'm sorry I missed you. So I 17 want to make sure I have the bullet point in this 18 document. Which bullet point is it? 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I don't have the 20 document in front of me myself. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, okay. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But I've accurately 23 summarized it. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which one? 25 THE WITNESS: The fifth bullet.
1591 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The fifth 2 bullet? 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Fifth bullet, okay. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One (1), two 5 (2), three (3), four (4), five (5). The Minister through 6 the deputy. The Minister may, through the deputy, bring 7 to the attention... 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: So we have the 13 bullet point. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: And your evidence with respect to 18 that in your examination by Mr. Millar, number 1. Now 19 number 2, I then asked you: Was it not the -- if the 20 Solicitor General had concluded, in his view, that there 21 was a criminal offence being committed by Stoney Point 22 people in occupying Ipperwash Provincial Park, could he 23 have undertaken that procedure? 24 And you, in response to that question, 25 said, No.
1601 Is that correct? 2 A: That is correct. 3 Q: Okay. So now I'm trying to explore 4 why you say no in this context as opposed to why this 5 particular does not fit that general? 6 Okay, that's what I was trying to do when 7 I was interrupted. So can you please assist us as to why 8 this particular does not fit that general, in your view? 9 A: And it is my view. I -- I did not 10 prepare this issue note. It -- from the bottom of the 11 page it looks like Dianne Dougall of the legal services 12 branch prepared the note. I did not see the note prior 13 to being circulated it by e-mail. 14 It arrived in my e-mail box on Friday, but 15 I didn't actually see it on -- until Monday and at that 16 point it said, "Not circulated," on the copy that I 17 received, so I said it was unlikely that I had previously 18 seen this. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: So I was asked today to quickly 21 review the various bullet points and I answered to the 22 best of my ability. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: So to -- to the best of my -- my 25 ability, during this particular issue there was no
1611 feeling inside the Minister's office that there could be 2 any direction given to the OPP. 3 Q: That wasn't what I asked you, though. 4 I asked you: Would it have been consistent with his 5 responsibilities if he had exercised bullet point number 6 5 in this circumstance, and your view was, no. 7 A: My view is no. 8 Q: And could you explain to me why -- 9 what's missing, why the no? 10 A: For this particular situation, the 11 Minister did not provide any direction via the deputy 12 Minister's office to the OPP. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 14 enough. The bullet point -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'll move on -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The bullet 17 point says "may" in any event. The bullet point says 18 "may." 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, but then -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And she -- 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But then she said 22 "may not" in this particular case and -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- she hasn't 25 explained to me the difference, but I'll move on, Mr.
1621 Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 5 Q: Now, if you could look at your Tab 6 17, please. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 11 Mr. Rosenthal, I missed that. Where are we now? 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Commission 13 documents, Tab 17. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 17, thank 15 you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 20 Q: This has now been made Exhibit P-929 21 and you recall this is a fax -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- that says, from 24 Kathryn Hunt, executive assistant, to Dave Moran. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
1631 2 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 3 Q: And it's on the -- the heading of the 4 Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services. 5 Now, your evidence -- I'm sorry, did you 6 wish to say something? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Your evidence to Mr. Millar was, as I 9 understood it, that you didn't recall sending this 10 document to Mr. Moran; is that correct? 11 A: No. I said that the cover page -- I 12 did -- that is my writing on the cover page -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- and that likely I did send the 15 document, but I don't know how I came to have possession 16 of the document. I don't know -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- who gave it to me. 19 Q: Okay. So you likely did send this 20 document, but you don't specifically recall doing so, or 21 do you? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And the writing on the cover page is 24 yours, but the writing inside is not yours; is that 25 correct?
1641 A: That's correct. 2 Q: Now, you don't recall how you 3 obtained possession of this document, but I'd like to 4 explore possible sources for this document for you. Who 5 could have possibly sent you this document? 6 Would it most likely have been within your 7 Ministry, like the deputy Solicitor General or someone 8 like that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Is there any other way you could have 11 gotten this document other than from somebody within the 12 Ministry of the Solicitor General? 13 A: No, I don't think so. 14 Q: Okay. Thank you. 15 Now, there's a mention of -- in the fax 16 headers on top there's something, OPP Grand Bend 17 September 7/'95. 18 Are you absolutely certain that this 19 document was not sent to you by the OPP? 20 A: I don't know how this document -- I 21 don't recall this document and I don't know how it came 22 into my possession. 23 Q: But you say you could not be 24 absolutely certain. 25 Maybe the OPP sent it to you?
1651 A: Yeah. But that would not have been 2 the normal procedure within the Ministry. 3 Q: But this -- 4 A: The OPP went through the Deputy 5 Minister's office. 6 Q: That would have been the normal 7 procedure. You would agree that these were abnormal 8 times. 9 Once the shooting occurred certainly it 10 was an abnormal situation? 11 A: I cannot recall a single time that 12 material was sent directly to the Minister as opposed to 13 through the Deputy Minister's office. 14 Q: Okay. If you could please turn to 15 Tab 1 of your documents? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: This is a document you did 20 acknowledge recalling and it says that the top 21 communicator's executive assistant Kathryn Hunt -- that's 22 you, correct? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Now, this document's entitled, 25 "Managing Aboriginal Relations During the Ipperwash
1661 Incident." I don't believe it was made an exhibit and I 2 think we should make it an exhibit because it was asked 3 about and I'm going to ask more about it. So... 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. I -- I agree 5 with My Friend. I just realized that -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not an 7 exhibit. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- it hadn't been made 9 an exhibit. I should have made it an exhibit, so we give 10 it the next number... 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-934. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-934. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: ...934 and it's 14 Inquiry Document 1001147. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-934: Document Number 1001147. 17 Managing Aboriginal Relations 18 During the Ipperwash 19 Incident, undated 20 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 24 Q: So what is now Exhibit P-934. 25 So you do recall that document?
1671 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, this is a document -- one (1) 3 question about it is: What is the date of the this 4 document? There doesn't appear to be a date on it as far 5 as I can tell. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: I couldn't say. 10 Q: It was evidently sometime shortly 11 after the shooting of Dudley George, is that fair? 12 A: Yes, it -- likely the -- September 13 7th or 8th. 14 Q: Likely September 7 or 8? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yes. And it says: 17 "EA will call to set up conversations 18 with..." 19 So that was you, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So -- and did you call these people 22 and set up the conversations then? 23 A: Yes, I believe so. 24 Q: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She was
1681 asked that. She said that in her examination-in-chief. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She did. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 6 Q: Yes, but you also told us did you not 7 that in response to questions from counsel from Mr. 8 Runciman that Ipperwash was just a watching brief for you 9 and your Minister and you didn't take any next steps or 10 do anything. 11 Didn't you tell him that? 12 A: Yes, I did say that. 13 Q: Yes, so that wasn't correct was it? 14 That was not correct was it? 15 A: I think he was referring to the 16 meetings of September 5th and 6th. 17 Q: Well, my understanding was that he 18 was referring to the entire Ipperwash matter. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well... 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: We'll -- we'll look 21 at the transcript and see. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The transcript will 23 speak for itself. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 25 All right. I think --
1691 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: The transcript will 2 certainly speak for itself. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 6 Q: But how did it come to be that you 7 the Executive Assistant to the Solicitor General was 8 undertaking this task? 9 A: I think during the course of the day 10 on the 7th there was conversation about communications 11 and some decision was made that we would undertake this. 12 Q: By whom? 13 A: I can't specifically say who would 14 have made that decision. 15 Q: If you -- if you just had a watching 16 brief how were you -- why was your Ministry doing this? 17 A: I -- I can't specifically recall why 18 the -- the Solicitor General was going to make these 19 calls. 20 Q: Were you -- was Mr. Runciman aware 21 that you were doing this? 22 A: Yes, he would have been aware. 23 Q: He would have certainly been aware? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And he might well have been the
1701 person who directed you to, is that fair? 2 A: As I said I can't specifically recall 3 how the decision was made. 4 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Thank 5 you, Ms. Hunt. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 7 Mr. Rosenthal. I think Mr. Scullion is up now. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 12 Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 14 afternoon. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 17 Q: Good afternoon, Ms. Hunt. 18 A: Good afternoon. 19 Q: My name is Kevin Scullion. I'm one 20 of the counsel for the Residents of Aazhoodena. That you 21 may also know as the Stoney Point Group. 22 I'm looking for some assistance on a few 23 issues and -- and I appreciate that this happened ten 24 (10) years ago and it's very difficult to recall 25 specifics.
1711 But a couple of things came up in your 2 examination-in-chief and cross-examination I just want to 3 clarify. 4 One of which was -- you have to bear with 5 me as I move back and forth between binders. But a 6 document at Tab 3 of your materials. If I can turn you 7 to page 2 which I note is a briefing note and I don't 8 have the exhibit number. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-303. 10 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: P-303, Mr. 11 Commissioner. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 14 Q: But I've noticed just in the 15 background area there's a line that says and if you go 16 halfway through that paragraph it says: 17 "In most cases a threat to blockade is 18 made before a blockade actually occurs. 19 This can provide an opportunity to 20 negotiate. Often a blockade can be 21 averted if the First Nation is given 22 another forum for discussing its 23 concerns with the Province." 24 Do you see that line? 25 A: I do see it.
1721 Q: And my question for you is whether 2 you're aware of any steps taken by the Solicitor 3 General's office in -- in relation to discussions in the 4 month of August or early September along the lines that 5 are suggested here. 6 Are you aware of any steps taken? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. In my notes from the 9 cross-examination by Mr. Runciman's counsel, I noted when 10 you were talking about these briefing notes that are 11 prepared. You used the term that the materials are 12 prepared by the bureaucracy. 13 Do I take it that that's the staff at the 14 Government that goes through all of the information 15 available on an issue, sifts through that information and 16 prepares sort of the bare bones material for the briefing 17 that occurs with the Minister? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And that's something that 20 you'd be involved in would it not, at least leading up to 21 and taking part in the briefing with the Minister? 22 A: The issue notes were shared with me 23 in their final form. They were always dated and they 24 were numbered. So there was a version number but I -- I 25 didn't write the content of the issue notes.
1731 Q: I appreciate that. But in gathering 2 the information, that would be something that you would 3 have been involved in either as an EA or in your previous 4 years of working in the Government or in the opposition? 5 A: Not specifically for the generation 6 of those issue notes. There was a unit inside the Deputy 7 Minister's office and they would make enquiries into 8 various branches of the Ministry and they would gather 9 the information and it would be presented to the 10 Minister's office as an issue note. 11 Q: Okay. And that information would be 12 gathered from as many different sources as possible in 13 order to make sure that the briefing note was full and 14 complete for the Minister, correct? 15 A: That would be my understanding. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I may be 17 mistaken, Mr. Scullion. But I don't think Ms. Hunt would 18 consider herself a part of the bureaucracy. 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: No I wasn't -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But you 21 weren't going for -- 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- I wasn't going 23 that direction. I'm just simply -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 25 That's fine. Is that correct?
1741 THE WITNESS: That is correct, yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So when you 3 said the bureaucracy prepared it, you weren't including 4 yourself? 5 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 6 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Okay. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 9 Q: And in my notes from the cross- 10 examination by Mr. Downard, counsel for Mr. Harris, was 11 that the briefing notes were helpful in terms of bringing 12 the Minister up to date on the issues as well as making 13 sure that it didn't get into any difficulty? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: It's a dual purpose? 16 A: That's right, because the positioning 17 statement was provided for the Minister. 18 Q: Okay. And it's possible that the 19 Minister could be scrummed or presented with questions 20 that he'd like to be up to date on the most up to date 21 information available? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And that was one of the reasons for 24 preparing these briefing notes? 25 A: That's right.
1751 Q: Okay. And I -- I ask that because in 2 your evidence in-chief you indicated that your attendance 3 at these Interministerial meetings was to gather 4 information so that you could brief the Minister; is that 5 correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: That's what you saw your role as 8 attending this Interministerial meeting? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And I raise that because 11 my clients are trying to see what was going on behind 12 closed doors, in terms of what steps were being taken by 13 the Government. 14 We've heard from the OPP and from the MNR 15 that as of September 4th there was a plan in place to 16 seek an injunction and for the OPP to, man the ground, to 17 -- so to speak, and that that plan was being implemented 18 as of September 4th and 5th. 19 Which takes us to the Interministerial 20 meeting, and I appreciate that you don't have a perfect 21 recollection of what occurred at those meetings, but do I 22 take it from you that the OPP, in the course of these 23 Interministerial meetings, were not seeking advice in any 24 way, shape or form from the attendees at the meeting? 25 A: My recollection is that it was an
1761 information sharing session that the spokespersons spoke 2 from the perspective of the Ministry of Natural 3 resources, and Ron Fox spoke from the perspective of the 4 OPP, and there were spokespersons for the Ministry of the 5 Attorney General and ONAS, and that the information was 6 shared and then options were developed. 7 Q: I appreciate that, but my question 8 was whether or not the OPP, to the best of your 9 recollection, were seeking any advice or direction from 10 the members of the Committee? 11 A: I don't believe so, no. 12 Q: All right. But you do recall the 13 Committee offering advice or direction to the OPP, at 14 which point you did make the comment that they're 15 separate and apart? 16 A: I can't specifically recall what 17 prompted me to make that statement. I only recall that I 18 did make it. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall MNR seeking any 20 advice or direction from the Committee on what they were 21 doing? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. And I take it when you refer 24 to it as a watching brief, you didn't see any particular 25 role for the Solicitor General, in terms of dealing with
1771 the Ipperwash matter at that time? 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Those 7 are all my questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 Mr. Scullion. 10 Mr. Henderson, I'm not sure, do you have 11 any questions on behalf of either -- 12 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: No, Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- yourself 14 or your Friend, Mr. Horton? No? 15 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: No, neither Mr. 16 Horton nor my -- nor I have any questions, Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 18 Mr. Henderson. 19 Then we're up to Mr. Roy. Yes, Mr. 20 Roy...? 21 MR. JULIAN ROY: I think everything's 22 been amply covered from our point of view also, so I 23 don't have any other questions. Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much, Mr. Roy.
1781 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I just have a short 2 one question -- two (2) questions, actually. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The one -- 4 the one day that we don't have a back up witness, we -- 5 we get through very quickly, it's amazing. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, that's the way 7 of the world, I'm afraid. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 10 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: The -- but My Friends Mr. Rosenthal 12 and Mr. Scullion asked you about the issue of the 13 watching brief that -- and the question I have is the 14 watching brief that you referred to, did it change when 15 there had been the death of Dudley George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the Solicitor General took a -- 18 an active role after the death of Dudley George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And, secondly, the issue notes that I 21 took you to this morning and that I think My Friend Mr. 22 Scullion was referring to in a simple -- an example would 23 be at Tab 33, P-564, 3000769; there's an example. 24 These issue notes came from, as I 25 understand it, from other testimony from the OPP to the
1791 Solicitor General. 2 Is that your understanding, the Ministry 3 of the Solicitor General? 4 A: To the Ministry, yes. 5 Q: And then they would go from the issue 6 group in the Ministry, The Deputy Minister's office to 7 you and to others within the Ministry? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions, 10 Commissioner. I wish to thank Ms. Hunt very much for 11 coming and assisting us and answering the questions that 12 she has today. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much, Ms. Hunt, for giving us your evidence. It 15 looks like you're going to get back while there's still 16 daylight. Thank you very much. 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 18 19 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 20 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, Commissioner, the 22 next witness is up tomorrow morning at 9:00; it's Mr. 23 Bangs. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 I understand Mr. Bangs or his counsel weren't available
1801 today. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It was Mr. Bangs' 3 counsel wasn't available and given the scheduling issues 4 Mr. -- I didn't think -- I thought we might be a little 5 longer and so we don't have another witness. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We never 7 know. Thank you very much, Mr. Millar. We're going to 8 adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 9:00. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 11 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, November the 3rd at 12 9:00 a.m. 13 14 --- Upon adjourning at 2:10 p.m. 15 16 17 Certified Correct 18 19 20 21 ____________________ 22 Carol Geehan 23 24 25