11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 2nd, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) (np) Police 21 Peter West ) 22 23 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 24 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 25 Debra Newell ) K. Deane
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 8 Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) (np) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 STEWART BRADLEY GEORGE, Sworn 6 7 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 8 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 104 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 107 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Brian Eyolfson 112 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter West 116 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 167 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 206 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 221 15 16 17 18 19 Certificate of Transcript 227 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-70 Map of Ipperwash Camp Ground, 4 marked by Stewart Bradley George 49 5 P-71 Document 1002409, Map of 6 Ipperwash Military Reserve marked 7 by Stewart Bradley George. 53 8 P-72 "Stan" Thompson drawing dated 9 20 September, 1995 marked by witness 10 Stewart Bradley George. 79 11 P-73 Forest Standard Newspaper 12 clipping of August 30, 1995, of 13 letter by Gerald George 213 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Worme's going to 11 be leading our next witness and I think he's just outside 12 so... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 17 Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 19 morning. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, the next 21 witness is Stewart Bradley George. I've already informed 22 Mr. Registrar that Mr. George will be affirming by other 23 means. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 morning, Mr. George.
81 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 2 3 STEWART BRADLEY GEORGE, Sworn 4 5 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 7 A: Good morning. 8 Q: I've got to get this out of the way 9 right off the bat. 10 A: What -- what's that? 11 Q: You're -- you're known as Worm? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. And I wonder if you might be 14 able to just share with me how it is that you got that 15 name. I'm -- I'm interested, for obvious reasons, but -- 16 A: I've had that name since I was a kid. 17 I -- I seem to remember that I got it from a cousin by 18 the name of Polecat. 19 Q: Koocan (phonetic)? 20 A: Polecat. 21 Q: Oh, Polecat, pardon me. All right I 22 understand that you were born in -- on the 12th of June, 23 1957 and that would make you, then, forty-seven (47) 24 years of age today? 25 A: That's correct.
91 Q: You are currently married? 2 A: I'm in a common-law relationship. 3 Q: Okay and your wife is? 4 A: Rose Crottle. 5 Q: You have four (4) children. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And can you give us their names and 8 ages, please? 9 A: Steven (phonetic), he's the oldest, 10 he's going to be twenty-nine (29) on November the 10th. 11 And next, there's Leland (phonetic), he's going to -- he 12 turned twenty-three (23) on June the 6th of this year, 13 and Lacie (phonetic), she's the oldest girl; she's going 14 to be twenty-one (21) or twenty (20) on the 29th of 15 December and then there's the youngest one, Amber. She 16 was born in '88 and she's going to be sixteen (16) on the 17 19th of December. 18 Q: And they currently all reside with you 19 at -- at Stoney Point? 20 A: Leland, he's got his own place in 21 Stoney Point and Amber, she does live at home with me. 22 Q: All right. We'll hear a bit more 23 about Leland I'm -- I'm thinking -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Your parents were Abraham George, who
101 is now deceased as I understand? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And he had deceased in the year 2000 4 or 2001? 5 A: It's 2001. 6 Q: And he's buried at the grave site in 7 Aazhoodena or Stoney Point? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. Your mother is Muriel George? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: You have eleven (11) siblings, as I 12 understand it; can you tell us how many today are -- are 13 yet alive? 14 A: All of them except for one (1). 15 Q: Okay. And that would be Carl? 16 A: Carl, yeah. 17 Q: And when did Carl decease? 18 A: I think it was around '92 or '93. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I think it was in '93 because they 21 were on -- on their walk to Ottawa. Because Dave and -- 22 Dave and them had to -- had to come back when they -- 23 when they heard about Carl passing. 24 Q: I see. You have ancestors that were 25 from the original Stoney Point Reserve?
111 A: Yes. 2 Q: That would be your parents -- your 3 parents' grandparents; is that right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: It would be Robert and Laura George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. What about your -- your 8 uncles, Bruce George, Dan George, Reginald George, Robert 9 George, Thomas George and Fletcher George? 10 A: Yes, they were all in Stoney Point. 11 Q: They were all Stoney Point residents 12 as -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- well? You were related to the 15 late Dudley George? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And how was that -- 18 A: First cousin. 19 Q: I'm sorry? 20 A: First cousin. 21 Q: All right. And Nicholas Cottrelle? 22 A: Yeah, he's my nephew. 23 Q: Just briefly, if I can ask you to 24 comment upon what you know about the appropriation of the 25 Stoney Point Reserve in 1942. You were told something
121 about that or you became aware at some point? 2 A: Yeah. My -- our father would tell us 3 bits and pieces through when we were growing up. 4 Q: Yes, go ahead. 5 A: He -- 6 Q: What would he -- what would he 7 describe for you? 8 A: He would tell us how -- how they -- 9 how they come along and just took the land and moved 10 everybody to Kettle Point. 11 Q: Okay. Did he describe how he might 12 have felt about that or how that made him feel? 13 A: He was very unhappy, you know, the 14 way he was -- they were treated when they were -- arrived 15 in Kettle Point; a little bit of land to build a -- a 16 house on. 17 When he -- he was living in Stoney Point 18 he had forty (40) acres, I believe, forty (40) acres of 19 land which, from time to time, he would say that he never 20 really received nothing for. And -- and he was subjected 21 to living on about a acre of land in Kettle Point, if 22 that. 23 Q: All right. Did your father tell you 24 anything about burial grounds located at the former 25 Stoney Point Reserve that was appropriated in 1942?
131 A: Yeah. And he -- he told us that 2 there was, other than the burial grounds that are in -- 3 in the military base, he -- he also mentioned of graves 4 being in the park where his younger brother was buried. 5 Q: And who is that? 6 A: Fletcher. 7 Q: All right. And do you know where in 8 the park your father said that his brother Fletcher 9 George was buried? 10 A: Well, there -- there's a -- a 11 maintenance building. There was a road going from the 12 maintenance building to the pump house. And it was 13 along that -- that road he said that Fletcher was buried 14 on, which -- which he told us that it should be blocked 15 off because -- to -- to let them rest in peace. 16 Q: Okay. What I'm going to do a little 17 bit later on is I'll produce a map, Mr. Commissioner, and 18 we'll ask this witness then to put a marking on that, at 19 the location he's just described for us. 20 Do you know whether or not there had been 21 any arrangements that these burial grounds would in fact 22 be marked off so that they could rest in peace, I think, 23 to use your words. 24 A: Well, from what I believe is that 25 there was supposed to be a fence put up around so -- so
141 that -- they -- they wouldn't be disturbed. 2 Q: And do you -- can you recall today 3 for us, sir, how it is that you had come to this 4 understanding; that is about the fence? 5 A: Through conversations with other -- 6 other people at that -- like older people and that know a 7 little more about it than -- or a lot more than I know. 8 Q: And when you say that you were told 9 your Uncle Fletcher was buried there, do you know, or 10 would you be able to point precisely to that location? 11 Was it described for you with that kind of precision? 12 A: My father was buried along where I 13 just described, is where he told me, yeah. But if he's 14 still buried there now, I don't know, 'cause the land was 15 flattened out and so they could build a park and I don't 16 know if any graves -- or where the graves were pushed to 17 when they levelled off the ground. 18 Q: All right. You had occasion when you 19 were a youth to go into the Army Camp, to go into the 20 Base? 21 A: Not the Base but -- not the built-up 22 area, it was back in through the bush there, back to the 23 dump and back to the burial ground. 24 Q: Okay. Can you tell us a bit more 25 about that? Were you there with permission, did you have
151 to ask for permission, how was it that you gained entry? 2 A: Jumped over the fence. 3 Q: And you -- you indicate the dump? 4 A: Yeah, there -- they got -- there used 5 to be a dump back on, just down the road from the burial 6 ground, we used -- I used -- the Army put all kinds of 7 stuff in there, what's in there I don't know. 8 On one (1) occasion -- on one (1) occasion 9 I was with Waldo and he was pushing some of the junk back 10 and -- and we -- we seen the rocket there that he 11 uncovered and -- and so we just buried it back up and -- 12 and left it alone, it's probably still there. So I -- I 13 don't know what's all in there. 14 Q: When you say Waldo, who do you -- who 15 do you refer to? 16 A: Charlie George. Warren George 17 Junior. 18 Q: Okay. And when was this that you 19 would have discovered this rocket at the dump? 20 A: It was around the end of '95 or early 21 '96, somewhere around in there. 22 Q: You had also mentioned that as a -- 23 or did you, as a -- as a youngster when you would get 24 into the -- into the Army Camp, not the built-up area, 25 that you would attend at the -- the graveyard; is that
161 what I understood you to say? 2 A: Yeah, I would -- I would go back and 3 look at the -- look at the graves, but it -- 4 Q: And what can you tell us about that 5 today, what do you remember about that today? 6 A: I remember that -- that the -- the 7 graveyard was grown over pretty -- pretty good, like 8 little saplings that were starting to grow, and the grass 9 was uncut. There -- there was a -- there was a fence up 10 around it, it had Out of Bounds on it and it had bullet 11 holes in it. I remember that. 12 Q: And can you give us an estimate as to 13 when this might have been? 14 A: I was just a young fellow, maybe 15 around -- in my teens, early teens. 16 Q: So perhaps thirty (30) years or more 17 ago? 18 A: Somewhere like that, yeah. 19 Q: And how does that relate in terms of 20 what the graveyard looks like now, as opposed to what you 21 recalled then in your early teens? 22 A: Well, now -- now it looks -- it looks 23 a lot better than what it did, there's no more fence or - 24 - or anything like that, eh. 25 Q: Were there gravestones or headstones
171 marking out the graves when you went there as -- in your 2 early teens? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And are those same headstones or 5 gravestones still there today? 6 A: I don't remember. 7 Q: You told us a little bit earlier that 8 your father had lost his land, approximately forty (40) 9 acres at Stoney Point as a result of the appropriation 10 and that he was pretty sad about that. I understand that 11 you were told something about this by your Uncle Dan 12 George as well? 13 A: It would be more like -- 14 Q: Let me ask you this. Did your Uncle 15 Dan George tell you anything about life at Stoney Point 16 before the appropriation? 17 A: Oh yeah. When -- when my father and 18 Dan were young, my father he got pneumonia and he was -- 19 he was pretty sick and my Uncle Dan he said that he 20 stayed up all night and, like, sponge bathing him and so 21 -- to keep the fever down. That's when my dad was 22 telling me that he remembers when they poked a hole in 23 his side, he said that hurt and he said he could see the 24 puss fly out and almost hit the ceiling. That's how sick 25 he was I guess.
181 I don't think he would've made it if it 2 wasn't for Dan keeping the fever down. I think that 3 that's how he said that Uncle Fletcher died with 4 pneumonia. 5 Q: Okay. So this was all part of the 6 same stories was it? 7 A: Yeah. There was all kinds of stories 8 about -- about when they used to cut wood and poles and 9 that and they had them all piled up there and the next 10 morning when they went back -- back with the horses to 11 draw them out of the bush, they were gone. Somebody went 12 and stole them on them. They were -- they would curse a 13 little bit about it, I think they know who done it. But 14 I can't -- I can't say. 15 Q: As result of the illness that your 16 father had, that -- that had a certain effect on him and 17 a certain effect on his future decisions did it? 18 A: Yeah. He wasn't allowed to join the 19 army because of one bad lung or something like that. He 20 did try to -- at the time when everybody else joined the 21 army to go to war, he -- I think he was gone for about a 22 month or something like that I was told. 23 Q: I see. So he never made it overseas? 24 A: No. 25 Q: In 1990, your Uncle Dan George was
191 buried at the gravesite -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- at the Army Camp. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: You attended that did you? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Can you tell us anything about that? 8 A: Well, I don't think Uncle Dan wanted 9 to go home -- make it home that way. You know, it was 10 kind of sad that -- that he had -- finally got to go home 11 in that -- that way. When he was -- when people were 12 promised that they were -- they would return the land 13 after the war. I don't know which war they were in. 14 Q: And you're aware that in 1993 that 15 people eventually moved into the Army Camp. That is 16 Stoney Point people moved into the Army Camp? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: You were not among that group? 19 A: No. 20 Q: In fact your were incarcerated at 21 Maplehurst Correctional Centre, that's -- that's true? 22 A: Yes, I was. 23 Q: Just on that note, Mr. George, I want 24 to take you through some records that have been provided 25 to me and it has to do with your criminal record. In
201 January of 1976, and I recognize this is a long time 2 ago -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- you were convicted of theft over 5 two hundred dollars ($200)? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: You received a suspended sentence and 8 probation for that? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. In January of 1976, you 11 were convicted of driving while impaired, drive-haul 12 disqualified and possession of a narcotic, for which you 13 were fined on all of those matters? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: In June of 1978, you were fined a 16 hundred and fifty dollars ($150) for failing to appear? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: In December of 1978 you were convicted 19 of having a prohibited weapon in a motor vehicle and 20 fined a hundred dollars ($100). 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Can you tell us something about that, 23 please? 24 A: Well, my -- my sister was a -- had 25 married into Sarnia Reserve and -- and I used to go down
211 there quite -- quite a bit to visit and from time to time 2 I would ride around with friends and -- and one (1) of 3 them had -- I remember him having those nunchuks and -- 4 and he must have shoved them under the seat and I forgot 5 all about them and they were there for a while, I guess. 6 And I got pulled over by the police and -- 7 and they found them underneath or in -- it was a shock to 8 me when they found them, but I -- but I knew where they 9 were, or whose they were when they did find them. 10 Q: And did you tell the Court whose they 11 were? 12 A: I tried to, but they found me guilty 13 anyway. 14 Q: All right. And you were fined a 15 hundred dollars ($100) for that? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And which sister was married in Sarnia 18 Reserve? 19 A: Mary -- Mary Joseph. 20 Q: And just so we're all clear on this, 21 nunchuks are a martial arts type weapon -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- essentially two (2) pieces of wood 24 joined together by a length of string or chain? 25 A: Yeah.
221 Q: All right. In June of 1979 you were 2 charged -- or, pardon me -- convicted of mischief for 3 which you were fined a hundred and fifty dollars ($150)? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: In January of 1981, you were convicted 6 of theft over two hundred dollars ($200) and given 7 probation? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: In May of 1985 you were convicted of 10 mischief and given a fifty dollar ($50) fine and 11 restitution requirements of two hundred and twenty-four 12 dollars ($224). 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Do you recall what that was in 15 relation to? 16 A: I think I busted a window at the bingo 17 hall. 18 Q: Okay. In August of 1987 you were 19 convicted of assault and failed to comply with a 20 recognizance for which you were fined three hundred 21 dollars ($300). Do you know anything about that today? 22 A: It might be I had an argument with my 23 common-law wife. I can't rightfully remember. 24 Q: All right. In October of 1987 you 25 were convicted of assault and mischief and sentenced to
231 ten (10) days imprisonment? 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: All right. Can you recall today what 4 that was in relation to? 5 A: I think I was arguing with my 6 girlfriend. 7 Q: All right. In March of 1989 you were 8 convicted of failing to comply with a recognizance and 9 given fifteen (15) days? Pardon me, on -- there was two 10 (2) counts of that and given fifteen (15) days on each. 11 Do you recall that? 12 A: Yeah, I think -- I think that was -- I 13 was supposed to abstain from communication with Rose 14 Crottle. 15 Q: I see. And on March the 23rd of 1989 16 you were convicted of assault causing bodily harm and 17 received a four (4) month sentence and convicted of 18 assault at the same time. 19 A: Yeah, well, again, I was arguing with 20 my girlfriend. She -- I seem to remember this one 21 because I did get hit with a hammer and I pushed her -- 22 pushed her away and she bumped into the refrigerator and 23 -- and when I was in jail I just, you know, instead of 24 sitting around doing -- in jail waiting for the -- 25 waiting for a trial date, I got my lawyer to make a plea
241 bargain so -- so I could just get it over with. 2 Q: All right. In May of 1990, you were 3 convicted of two (2) counts of assault and received 4 ninety (90) days on each, concurrent? 5 A: Yeah. I can't remember that one. 6 Q: And in January of 1992 you were 7 convicted of mischief and assault of Police Officer and 8 you got a two hundred and fifty dollar ($250) dollar 9 fine? 10 A: Yeah. Did you say '92? 11 Q: January of 1992. 12 A: I think -- yeah, I think that was 13 somebody owed me money for -- for fixing their car and I 14 kept the car at home and they went and told Murray 15 Bressette and like he -- he's an Officer in Kettle Point 16 and he come over without -- him and the OPP come over and 17 -- and while I was standing there or -- kind of got into 18 a shouting match and the OPP, he grabbed me from behind 19 and then Murray he -- he hauled off and punched me in the 20 face, so I got pretty mad and when they were taking off I 21 threw a rock at the car and hit the bumper and he jumped 22 out of the car and picked up the rock and yelled at me 23 that that was a mischief charge or something. 24 Q: In April of 1993, you were convicted 25 of obstructing a Police Officer, driving while impaired,
251 failing to provide a breath sample, assaulting a Peace 2 Officer and failing to reply with the recognisance. 3 I believe this would be the time when you 4 were sentenced to six (6) months? 5 A: Yeah. That would be in about -- I 6 didn't want to sit in jail doing dead time, so I got my 7 lawyer to make a plea bargain. 8 Q: And lastly, in January of '95 you 9 were convicted of driving while impaired and assault and 10 received a forty-five (45) day sentence and a fifteen 11 (15) day sentence consecutive together with a prohibition 12 -- a five (5) year prohibition from possession of 13 firearms, ammunition or explosives. Do you recall that? 14 A: I remember doing the time on 15 weekends. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: That firearms' prohibition would have 20 expired in the year 2000? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: So after you had completed your -- 23 your incarceration period at Maplehurst, which I've just 24 drawn residence your attention to, of April of '93, I 25 gather at some point in time you then attended back to
261 your residence. You were living at Kettle Point at the 2 time? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: You were employed at Kettle Point as 5 a carpenter? 6 A: From time to time, yeah. 7 Q: All right. You worked on the new 8 school there, for example? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Now, there was an incident that 11 occurred in '94 or '95 involving a Howard Simcoe. I 12 wonder if you could tell us about that. 13 A: Well that was -- I was at home, 14 asleep and -- and -- 15 Q: Just if I could interrupt you there. 16 You were at home in Kettle Point? 17 A: In Kettle Point, yeah. 18 Q: Go ahead. 19 A: And -- and it was real early in the 20 morning around 2:00 -- 1:00 or 2:00 some -- somewhere 21 around there and -- and somebody was knocking on the door 22 so I went and seen who it was and it was Glenn George. 23 And I -- I opened up and he came in and he 24 told me that there was somebody round on Stony Point 25 going around stabbing tires and -- and he wanted me to go
271 down and help to see if we could find the guy who was 2 doing it. 3 So I said, all right. So we went down. 4 Q: Stabbing tires on? 5 A: On the raised bonds (phonetic) that - 6 - the cars the guys used to get from the beach back up to 7 the front where they were -- had the trailer and that -- 8 Q: All right. 9 A: -- and, so on -- on our way down, we 10 turned onto Matheson Drive from Army Camp Road and we 11 noticed somebody walking down the road and as we got 12 closer, we seen it was an -- an army guy because he had 13 his green fatigues on and all that and so Glenn got out 14 and asked him what he was -- why he was going around 15 stabbing tires and that and I -- I -- I forget what Mr. 16 Simcoe had said, but he tried to tell us that -- that he 17 -- he was drunk and that he had passed out on the beach. 18 And -- and -- and Glenn started -- Glenn 19 asked him, What the? First, I think Howard Simcoe, he 20 says that -- said that he was a -- a native person from - 21 - from Raima (phonetic) and Glenn asked him, Well, what 22 the hell are you doing in that uniform? Take the 23 goddamned thing off and so he took off his coat and -- 24 and Glenn grabbed hold of it and slapped him with it and 25 he give him a little more shit and then -- then we went
281 down to the -- back to the bus, like the guys had a -- 2 the school bus on the beach where they used to drive it 3 down, they had, sort of like, couches and that. 4 They would spend the night down on the 5 beach and -- and we went -- we went down to see if -- to 6 see if they were all right and they were -- they were all 7 all right and so we were -- we -- we left again and when 8 we got back onto Matheson Drive we noticed some 9 taillights going off of Matheson Drive, turning up the 10 road and we followed them and they turned -- they turned 11 into the main gate. 12 Then when we -- we pulled up there, Howard 13 Simcoe was standing around with three (3) or four (4) 14 other army guys and then Glenn, he was -- he was pretty 15 upset by that time and -- and he got out of the car and 16 he went over there and started telling them to get the 17 hell off his land because -- 18 And as -- as he was doing that, one (1) of 19 the guys, the army guys, they -- he had his mother's car 20 parked on the -- in the -- where the entrance is right 21 next to Army Camp Road and -- and this one (1) guy, he 22 went out there. 23 He was looking around in the car and Glenn 24 went over there and told him to get the hell out of 25 there, you got no damned business looking around in there
291 and give him a little shove and -- and that's when this 2 other guy, he was a -- he come out on the other side of 3 the -- like there's two (2) -- two (2) sides to the 4 gatehouse and the other guy, I don't know who he was, he 5 was around there and I was standing over here and I 6 watched him reach -- reach in his back and -- and he 7 pulled out a gun. 8 He was pulling it out and I said, Come on, 9 Glenn, this guy's got a gun and the guy that got pushed, 10 he -- he -- he tells Glenn, he says, Yeah, you're right 11 and he's not scared to use it, either, so -- so we -- we 12 took off and then we went down to see Judas and we took-- 13 Q: When you say, "Judas", you mean 14 Roderick George? 15 A: Yeah, my brother, Roderick. Yeah. We 16 were down there talking and we remembered we had his coat 17 in the -- the army guy's coat in the car and, I think, 18 Nick went out to the car and got the coat and we -- we 19 noticed the name, "Simcoe", on the -- on there and -- on 20 his chest up here and -- and we were digging through the 21 pockets and there was a watch in the -- a watch in his 22 pocket and it had "Howard Simcoe" engraved on the back of 23 it. So, that's how we found out who the army guy was. 24 Q: Now, when you say that one (1) of the 25 other individuals with him had reached into his back and
301 had withdrawn a gun, did you actually see a gun? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: I take it that that would be a 4 handgun? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. Is there anything more to 7 this incident that you can tell us about? 8 A: Well, we -- we set up a meeting with 9 the OPP for the next day and they would -- we -- we -- 10 Glenn asked them to come down to the Argument Hall and 11 not to come dressed as police officers and to leave their 12 side arms, but they came with their side arms anyway 13 because they said it was part of their uniform. 14 And they told them of what happened. We 15 even showed them where the -- where the puncture marks 16 were in the tires because the guys had stuck small sticks 17 in the holes where the ice pick went through or whatever 18 he used to punch the holes in the tires. And it was 19 George Stuck (phonetic) that we were showing and he just 20 looked at it and never said nothing. 21 Q: Did they take a formal statement from 22 anybody? 23 A: No. They just sat around in Argument 24 Hall, talking. 25 Q: And did anything become of this
311 talking that you did with the OPP? 2 A: Not that I know of. 3 Q: I understand that you were involved 4 in an incident when you were on your trail bike. 5 Is that -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: I wonder if you can tell us about 8 that please? 9 A: Well, I bought a dirt bike for a 10 couple of hundred bucks ($200) that I used to ride from 11 Kettle Point up to -- up to the Army Camp through the 12 bush, and one night me and a guy by the name of Jonah 13 (phonetic) Henry, we were going through Tank Road and we 14 were going over to the trailer where Dudley was living. 15 And Jonah's bike broke so he -- so he left 16 it at Dudley's trailer and he was hiking home and on my 17 way back I was -- I took the same way -- same way back 18 that I came and as I was going down Tank Road, like, I 19 was good to the bush line, and -- and there was a yellow 20 post on each side of the driveway or the laneway and as I 21 -- as I was turning to go there, the headlight picked up 22 an object laying on the road. 23 So I hit the brakes and I swerved to miss 24 it and I got off my bike and -- to see what the heck it 25 was in there, it was an object that the army used to
321 flatten tires or whatever it was. And I picked it up and 2 it -- and it fell in half. There was pins in it. There 3 were two (2) chunks that fell in half. 4 They were about that long and one of the - 5 - one of the stars fell off of it and -- and I -- and I 6 took it down and showed Waldo and Marlin and showed them 7 what the army had laid across the road. And I showed 8 them -- I showed them one of these green things, so we 9 went back up to where it was laying and the army had been 10 there after I went -- moved it off the road. 11 Because when I picked it up, half of it -- 12 broke in half, eh, and I threw half on that side and I 13 threw half on this side. And the army they found the 14 half that was laying on this side, but -- but the other - 15 - the other half was still laying in the bush where I had 16 thrown it. 17 Q: Now I've put in front of you, an 18 object. Do you recognize that object at all? 19 A: Yeah. It was one just like it that - 20 - that was laying across the road. 21 Q: You can't tell us today whether 22 that's the actual piece or if it's one just like it? 23 A: It's one just like it. 24 Q: And you seem pretty certain, Mr. 25 George, that that was placed there by the army?
331 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And what do you think the reasoning 3 for that would be? 4 A: I don't know. 5 Q: We're just putting up on the screen, 6 Mr. Commissioner, a diagram of the army camp, or the 7 Ipperwash Military Reserve so that Mr. George can then 8 use the pointer that's right in front of you there, the 9 laser pointer. 10 If you can show us on that map where the 11 road is that you'd indicated, Tank Road, and where this 12 device was placed? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: It was right about there. There's 17 the bush line. This is the Army Camp Road. It was right 18 on that bush line, as you go into the bush, this road 19 goes into the bush. It was right -- right in there. 20 Q: All right. Were you able to see 21 that, Mr. Commissioner? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I can see 23 it. Are you saying it was on Army Camp Road? 24 THE WITNESS: Tank Road, I mean. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps what we need to
341 do is give the witness an opportunity to see the map 2 properly. It's likely that he couldn't see it from that 3 point. We're just going to get an enlarged view here, 4 Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 6 a hard copy of the map you can show him? It may help 7 him. 8 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Exhibit P-40. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I'm 14 looking at 63. 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Just bear with me, 16 please. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: I'm going to refer you to an exhibit 22 that's marked P-40, which is the picture that is up on 23 the screen. Now you had mentioned Tank Road. I wonder 24 if you could just point that out for us again, please? 25 All right. I think earlier you had said
351 Army Camp Road -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- and perhaps that's what my 4 confusion was. 5 A: Yeah, I -- I meant to say Tank Road. 6 There's -- there's the -- Tank Road starts here and it 7 goes along there and all the way back -- back around. It 8 comes out right by the dump, in between the dump and the 9 -- the burial ground. 10 We named it Tank Road because there's a 11 couple of tanks laying back there. 12 Q: All right. These would be tank 13 shells or shells of tanks? 14 A: The whole thing. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Tanks. 17 Q: All right. And where were these 18 devices that you've described and I've placed one that 19 looks exactly like that in front of you? 20 A: Oh the -- the bush line, it -- it 21 comes along here, eh? And right where this road it turns 22 into the bush, that's where they had it laying right 23 across the road, as the road goes into the bush. 24 Q: Okay. And just to be clear, Mr. 25 George, did you see anybody actually laying that device
361 on the road? 2 A: No. It wasn't there when I come 3 through there about half an hour before that. 4 Q: And then the one piece was gone after 5 you came back to search for it later? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. You had -- you were 8 involved in another incident in 1994, Mr. George, with a 9 military person at the -- at the camp? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: I wonder if you could tell us about 12 that. As I understand, you were ultimately charged with 13 assault at -- 14 A: Yeah. Oh we had -- we had been 15 drinking and -- and as usual the Range Patrols going by 16 so, like I threw a beer bottle at him and -- and they 17 must have got pretty offended so they -- so they stopped 18 and we started wrestling around and they -- all four (4) 19 of them they got me down and put handcuffs on me, took me 20 back up to the barracks to wait for the OPPs to come and 21 pick me up. 22 Q: Okay. When you say you were drinking 23 and the Range Patrol came by, where were you? 24 A: I was in Dudley's trailer. 25 Q: And whereabouts, if you can just
371 indicate on that map, if it's -- where that might be? 2 A: Right about here. 3 Q: You've indicated on the -- on the map 4 just to the west of the rifle range? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. And where were the Range 7 Patrol going by when you threw a beer bottle at them? 8 A: They were going by up this road. 9 They were going -- they were going by this one (1). 10 Q: And that's the road that runs inside 11 the -- inside the Base adjacent to Highway 21? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. Why did you throw a beer 14 bottle at them, Mr. George? 15 A: I was kind of -- kind of pissed off 16 for what they -- remembering them putting that across the 17 road and for them not giving the land back when they were 18 supposed to. And you know it's confusing, confused, 19 confusion at, you know, people want to come home and 20 they're -- and they're just girly driving around there 21 doing nothing, you know. I don't -- I never seen no use 22 in -- in what they were using the Base for, except for in 23 the summertime when they'd have -- they have Cadets down 24 there. That's all they used it for. 25 Q: So it was frustration and confusion
381 on your part; is that what you're telling us? 2 A: And being mad for them laying this 3 stuff across the road. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: You eventually did move to the -- to 8 the Army Base, or to the -- to the Army Camp at some 9 point, -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- the built up area, the barracks? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And where were you residing before 14 that? 15 A: In Kettle Point. 16 Q: All right. And you didn't go in when 17 -- when the other occupiers went in, in early July or 18 mid-July of '95? 19 A: No. 20 Q: When did you go in, Mr. George? 21 A: It was about -- maybe around the 22 middle of August, 'cause I know the kids weren't -- 23 weren't going to school yet. Well, I think it was around 24 the middle of August, I think. 25 Q: All right. And why did you go in?
391 A: Well, that's where we're from. I 2 mean, plus my -- my son wanted to go live up there and 3 help the cause. 4 Q: This would be your son...? 5 A: Leland. 6 Q: All right. What did Leland tell you? 7 A: He -- lots of things, come on dad, 8 let's go, when are we going to move up there? Stuff like 9 that, eh. After a while it just got annoying, so we 10 moved up there. 11 Q: And you didn't move initially, as I 12 understand, because you were employed building the school 13 at Kettle Point? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: All right. Did you have a place to 16 live at Stony Point? 17 A: Well, when we moved into the 18 barracks, yeah, I did, 'til... 19 Q: Is that where you still reside? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: I understand that the late Dudley 22 George was a babysitter or companion of -- of Leland's? 23 A: Yeah, he watched Leland while I'd go 24 to work in Kettle Point and pay him and I hear Leland 25 more or less having fun, you know, being a chauffeur for
401 Dudley, driving Dudley around, had a -- had a chauffeur 2 cap on and -- and all that, and people were laughing, 3 telling me about what -- how Dudley was babysitting. I 4 don't know who was watching who. 5 Q: How old was Leland at the time? 6 A: I think he was around twelve (12) or 7 thirteen (13). 8 Q: Okay, so he learned how to drive. Is 9 that what you're telling me? 10 A: Yeah. Dudley showed him how. 11 Q: All right. During that time when you 12 were residing at -- at Stoney Point, then, after you had 13 initially moved in mid-August of '95 and working at 14 Kettle Point, were you aware of any plans that were made 15 to move into the Park? 16 A: No. 17 Q: During the time that you lived at the 18 Army Camp, did you own any guns? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you use any guns during the time 21 that you were there? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Have you used any guns? 24 A: Have I? Since -- since when? 25 Q: Well, since the time that you moved
411 in, in '95 up to now? 2 A: Yeah, I shot a deer about a week ago - 3 - the first one (1). 4 Q: All right. And as I understand it, 5 you had not hunted since -- what -- childhood? 6 A: Yeah, I was about sixteen (16) years 7 old when -- when my gun got stolen, so I never had -- I 8 really -- I really lost interest because I was into 9 hockey and stuff like that, eh? 10 Q: All right. Were you aware of other 11 members, people that were in occupation at Stoney Point, 12 whether or not they were involved in hunting, and 13 particularly whether the late Dudley George was involved? 14 A: Well, I -- I heard of one (1) time, he 15 -- he shot a deer and he was rather proud of himself. 16 Q: Okay. What about other men, or women, 17 for that matter? 18 A: Yeah, he'd hear a guy say, we'd go out 19 and run the bush and they needed guys to run the bush, 20 and guys to stand and wait for a deer and to shoot them. 21 I was never interested in it. 22 Q: Okay. So, you weren't involved in 23 that activity, but other -- other people would? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Did you ever see any guns at anybody's
421 residence during the time that you were there, and 2 particularly in 1995? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right. Do you know where 5 individuals who would have been hunting might have kept 6 their guns; that is, stored them? 7 A: Yeah. Marlin had left one (1) of his 8 shotguns at home for -- for a few months and -- and Glenn 9 would tell me that he'd leave it -- he'd keep it -- he 10 kept his guns at -- at his mother's place. 11 Q: Now, just let me stop you there. 12 Marlin kept his at home, where -- where was that? 13 A: At my house. He -- he -- I don't 14 know, he -- me and him went hunting rabbits the one (1) 15 time and he brought over a gun for me to use. This was 16 back in -- heck, in '93. 17 Q: You would have been residing in Kettle 18 Point then? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. So he kept -- Marlin kept his 21 gun at your place in Kettle Point? 22 A: Yeah, he -- he'd left it over there 23 for a while and he come and got it and the guys were 24 going hunting and they needed a -- needed a gun for one 25 (1) of the guys that -- that were going to stand and wait
431 for the deers, eh? 2 Q: All right. And when you say Glenn 3 maintained his gun at his mother's place; where was that? 4 A: At -- right on the fourteenth 5 concession in Kettle Point. 6 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not 7 anybody had stored their weapons -- and again, just to 8 your knowledge -- whether or not anybody had stored their 9 guns at Stoney Point? 10 A: No, I never ever seen a gun. 11 Q: All right. So, what was it like at 12 the Army Camp after you first arrived there in mid-August 13 of '95? What can you tell us about the mood, the 14 atmosphere? 15 A: Well, everybody was happy because the 16 army was gone and people would, you know -- everybody was 17 talking, go and visit here and go and visit over there, 18 you know. You didn't have to lock the doors or, you 19 know. 20 There was just a -- a feeling, you know, 21 like I don't know how to describe it. I -- I don't know 22 how to describe the feeling but everybody seemed pretty 23 happy anyway. 24 Q: So it was a good feeling. 25 A: Yeah.
441 Q: And during the time that you were 2 there, do you recall whether or not the OPP or the 3 military might have said, why don't you just leave? 4 Anybody ever say anything like that to you? 5 A: No. 6 Q: I may have asked you this already, 7 but were you involved in any discussions that might have 8 occurred relating to the -- going into the Park? 9 A: I can't remember any. 10 Q: Can you tell us anything about how 11 decisions were made? 12 A: A lot of people would, you know, 13 gather up, you know, and discuss something and say yeah, 14 well, let's do it then. Everybody would, you know, sit 15 around and talk and stuff like that. 16 Q: I'm just going to put up on the map - 17 - pardon me, up on the screen the picture of the Park and 18 I'll take you back to your earlier evidence, Mr. George, 19 about the burial grounds that were described to you by 20 your father and in particular where your Uncle Fletcher 21 you were told is buried. That is the -- that is a 22 diagram of the Ipperwash Campground. 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: We may have an actual exhibit number 25 on that. I'm afraid I don't have that at this moment.
451 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's exhibit -- 2 actually it hasn't been marked as an exhibit. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: It -- it hasn't been 4 marked as an exhibit. So what we'll do is after the 5 break, Mr. Commissioner, we'll produce a hard copy of 6 this and have it marked as an exhibit. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 9 Q: I wonder if in the meantime, Mr. 10 George, if you can see that map from your vantage point-- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- whether you could indicate with 13 the laser pointer? 14 A: Right along this trail here. That's 15 -- that's why we closed it off. 16 Q: What is the name of that trail or 17 does it have a name? 18 A: I -- I don't know what it was called. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: I guess it is an 20 actual exhibit and I'm sorry about that, Mr. 21 Commissioner. It's P-61. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: And you're indicating a marking that 25 runs just to the left side of the diagram up from the
461 bottom to the top? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: From the indication at the bottom, 4 next to the Park boundary is maintenance. I gather 5 that's where the maintenance building is. Somewhere in 6 that area? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And if we go to the top there is a 9 trailer sanitary station? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: I want to move into the events then 12 of September of 1995, Mr. George. I'm wondering before 13 we do that, Mr. Commissioner, might this be a good place 14 to take the morning break? Otherwise I'm quite prepared 15 to move ahead. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You think 19 it's a good time in getting where you are? That's fine. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: I think it would be. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Take fifteen 22 (15) minutes. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 24 for fifteen (15) minutes. 25
471 --- Upon recessing at 11:00 a.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 11:16 a.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. Please be seated. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: Yeah, thank you for that, 9 Commissioner. I've just put in front of you, Mr. George, 10 a copy of the camp -- pardon me, the Ipperwash 11 Campground. Do you recognize that? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: It has been marked as P-61 in these 14 proceedings. I wonder if you would take that red pen and 15 mark off for us the location that you had described for 16 us earlier, that is to say where the grave sites were and 17 where you understood that your uncle Fletcher was buried. 18 If you can maybe just put a -- put a -- an "X" there. 19 A: He -- he said it was along that road, 20 but he never pointed exactly where it was, eh? 21 Q: I see. And did you describe that 22 there were other graves that were there as well, or you 23 were told of other graves? 24 A: Yeah, he said there were -- there was 25 other graves in there.
481 Q: And was it explained to you where 2 those other graves might be located? 3 A: They -- they more than likely are all 4 over the place because of the bulldozing that went on 5 when they made the Park because on both sides of the Park 6 you could see where -- how the dunes are -- are -- the 7 wind blows the dunes up and makes the big hills, like 8 that eh, and in the Park area it's all flattened out, due 9 to a bulldozer going through there. 10 Q: All right. And I -- and I recognize 11 that there has been some landscaping, if I can put it 12 that way, but was it explained to you where, on that map, 13 that these grave sites may have been located prior to the 14 bulldozing? 15 A: Yeah, it was right along that road 16 there. There must have been a -- a high spot where they 17 were putting -- burying their people. 18 Q: And that's the location that you've 19 just marked with an "X" on that -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- diagram in front of you? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm going to have that 25 marked as an exhibit, but I think what we'll do, I'll
491 just leave that in front of the witness for the time 2 being, Mr. Commissioner, there may be other matters that 3 we will have him mark with respect to that map. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: So, perhaps, on that 6 "X", if you could just put a 1 beside it, please. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-70, Your 8 Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-70: Map of Ipperwash Camp Ground, 11 marked by Stewart Bradley George 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: You had an incident, Mr. George, on 15 September the 4th with Ontario Provincial Police officers 16 involving yourself and Mr. Roderick George wherein you 17 were charged with intentionally damaging a police 18 vehicle? 19 A: Yes, I was. 20 Q: First of all, with respect to that 21 charge, what was the outcome of that? 22 A: It was dismissed. 23 Q: All right. Can you tell us what 24 happened on that occasion on the 4th of September, 1995? 25 A: We were -- we were all sitting along
501 the beach at -- at the place we call "The Pass" because 2 you could pass from the beach over -- over the sand dunes 3 and get to the -- get to one (1) of the roads the army 4 had built and we were sitting there having -- having some 5 beers and some food and that and somebody had stopped and 6 told us that there was -- some police cars sitting at the 7 end of Matheson Drive and -- and -- and we -- we felt 8 that -- that -- that is our territory and they never had 9 no business coming down there, so -- so we went up and 10 told them that they weren't wanted and we told them to 11 leave. 12 Q: As I understand it, you -- you were a 13 passenger in a vehicle operated by Roderick George? 14 A: Yeah, it was a blue TransAm. 15 Q: The blue TransAm was owned by 16 Roderick George? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And in some fashion, the 19 passenger door came into contact with the Police vehicle, 20 is that what I understand? 21 A: They said it did, but I don't -- I 22 don't think it did. 23 Q: Okay. And I understand that that was 24 a fairly heated exchange. Would that be fair? 25 A: Yeah.
511 Q: Did you at that point in time 2 identify yourself as a peacekeeper? 3 A: I don't think so. 4 Q: Did you indicate that you were there 5 to arrest the OPP Officers for trespassing. 6 A: Oh, when I got out of the car to -- 7 and the cop he -- he tells me that I was under arrest for 8 mischief and -- and I told him that he was under arrest 9 for trespassing. 10 Q: Were you taken into custody at that 11 point? 12 A: No. 13 Q: If somebody were to suggest that you 14 made the comment and I quote, "Do you know how many 15 crossbows you have lifted on you right now?", is that 16 something that you might have said? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Do you know whether or not there were 19 any crossbows in the camp? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Do you know if any of the occupiers 22 owned a crossbow? 23 A: Nobody owned no crossbow. 24 Q: If somebody were to have -- were to 25 suggest that you made a comment to the effect, how many
521 gun sights do you think are aimed at your head from the 2 sand dunes?, is that something that you said, Mr. George? 3 A: No, because I know that would -- 4 would have got me a charge of uttering threats and 5 possibly uttering a death threat. 6 Q: I put another map in front of you of 7 the -- of the Army Base. Can you just take a look at 8 that, please, and see if you recognize that? That's 9 marked as an exhibit in these proceedings and that is P- 10 63. 11 We have up on the screen an enlarged top 12 area of the Ipperwash Provincial Park. Do you see that? 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: And can you point out on the screen 15 where this incident occurred with the OPP Officers? 16 A: Right here. Right on the -- right at 17 the very end of Matheson Drive, on the beach. 18 Q: And that would be on the east side? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Closest to the lake? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. Could you mark on that 23 map in front of you, again with the red pen, if you can 24 just perhaps put a -- if you could put a number there 25 where that skirmish or where that incident took place,
531 rather? 2 A: What number? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Exhibit 63 4 has a lot of markings on it. It's going to be difficult. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: This is a clean copy. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a clean 7 copy? So this is going to be a new exhibit -- 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- number? 10 Okay. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you for that, 12 Commissioner. That would be P-71 then. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-71. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-71: Document 1002409, Map of 16 Ipperwash Military Reserve 17 marked by Stewart Bradley 18 George. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: If you can just put a Number 1 on 22 there and perhaps your initials, Mr. George. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
541 Q: You've marked that? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Yes, thank you. Now, I want to ask 4 you some other questions in relation to vehicles that 5 might have been at the same location in and around the 6 same time. Are you familiar with a black Camero bearing 7 rebel plates? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. Is it fair to say that a 10 black Camero might well be confused with the blue TransAm 11 that you were a passenger in? 12 A: Yeah, it could be it. It was a dark 13 -- the TransAm is a dark blue, eh. 14 Q: All right. And if I described an 15 individual as heavy set with a muscle shirt and sun 16 glasses, is that somebody that you might recognize being 17 at that location at that particular time? 18 A: No. 19 Q: A second individual with military 20 cut-offs, is that anybody that you can recall today for 21 us? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. Is it fair to say that 24 you do not recognize the vehicle, that is to say, a black 25 Camero, being at that location on September the 4th?
551 A: I never, ever seen a black Camero 2 around. 3 Q: All right. And if it was suggested 4 that two (2) individuals that I've just described, that 5 is to say, a heavy-set person with a muscle shirt and sun 6 glasses, and the second with military cut-offs, that 7 might have been reaching into this black Camero, and 8 taking out what appeared to be a rifle, you wouldn't -- 9 you cannot identify that for us today? 10 A: No. 11 Q: That's nobody you recognize? 12 A: No, nobody. 13 Q: Is that anything that you'd seen at 14 that time? 15 A: No, I never seen no black Camero 16 around. 17 Q: Would you remember one if you would 18 have seen it? 19 A: Yeah, because we do a lot of car 20 fixing and, like -- like, we know a lot of -- a lot of 21 cars of that make and -- like Cameros, TransAms and -- 22 and them. 23 Q: All right. As I understand it, you 24 were not present when the individuals went into the Park 25 initially on the 4th of September?
561 A: No. 2 Q: You did enter the Park later that 3 day? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Tell us how you heard about the 6 people going into the Park then. 7 A: I was at home sleeping on the couch 8 and the TV was on and -- and I woke up the news was on, 9 and they were saying that Native occupiers are in the 10 Provincial Park. 11 Q: And what time of day might have this 12 been, approximately, when you'd seen this on TV? 13 A: It was a -- it was early in the 14 morning, or -- I don't know what time it was. 15 Q: I gather this is your residence at 16 Kettle Point? 17 A: No, it was -- I had moved into the 18 barracks by them. 19 Q: All right. And, did you go to the -- 20 to the Park at any point then, after hearing this on 21 television? 22 A: Yeah. I -- I went down. 23 Q: And do you recall what time of day 24 that might have been? 25 A: It -- it was in the morning.
571 Q: And do you recall what day that would 2 have been? 3 A: I -- it was on the 5th. 4 Q: Can you describe for us what you seen 5 when you got there and, well, maybe tell us how you got 6 there and what you observed once you had arrived? 7 A: Robert Isaac had come up and picked 8 me up in the -- in -- in his car, which later was painted 9 up as the "OPP Who" car. He come up and picked me up. 10 Q: Yes, go ahead. 11 A: And, then we went down, we went -- 12 went over to -- over toward the stores where a few others 13 were -- were walking around, talking, went over there and 14 looking around myself, kind of, out of curiosity, walking 15 around in the store, and just checking things out. You 16 see -- 'cause I never, ever been in that store before, 17 so, curiosity kind of got the best of me. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Sat around, just, you know, just 20 hanging out. 21 Q: What was the -- the atmosphere like, 22 among the -- among the people that were in the Park? 23 A: A scent of excitement. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: 'Cause of the -- 'cause of the -- the
581 graves, the -- they were trampled over and all that 2 through the years and -- and finally, you know, there's - 3 - it's kind of hard to describe that -- that feeling. 4 Q: Was it a positive feeling? Negative 5 feeling? 6 A: Positive feeling, yeah. 7 Q: All right. You mentioned a couple -- 8 you mentioned a name, Robert Isaac? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: I understand he is deceased now? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And it was his vehicle that was, I 13 think you've told us, painted up as the "OPP Who" car? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: I wonder if you could tell us about 16 that. What -- what does that mean? 17 A: I think that's just a name, like -- it 18 was just a name, like, to poke fun at them. 19 Q: And you -- by them, you mean the 20 Ontario Provincial Police? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: That's what the OPP stood for? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: All right. Had you ever seen the late 25 Dudley George operate the "OPP Who" car?
591 A: A couple of times, yeah. 2 Q: All right. Have you ever seen, in the 3 "OPP Who" car, a high-powered rifle hanging in the rear 4 window? 5 A: Never. 6 Q: All right. Is there a place to high - 7 - to hang a high-powered rifle in the back of the OPP -- 8 in the rear window of the OPP vehicle -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- to your knowledge? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Have you ever heard about -- has 13 anybody ever told you about a high-powered rifle hanging 14 in the rear window of the "OPP Who" Vehicle? 15 A: I've never heard nothing of it. 16 Q: You had mentioned that there was a 17 positive feeling, that -- you mentioned something about 18 the graves, Mr. George? 19 A: We had a -- the people were able to -- 20 to take care of them and offer them tobacco, like, you 21 know, to help the -- the -- for the spirits to help carry 22 our prayers to the Creator, and that. 23 Q: Did you do that on that occasion when 24 you arrived there on the 5th of September of '95? 25 A: Yeah, I offered tobacco into the fire
601 that they had built. 2 Q: Okay. We have heard from other 3 witnesses that there was a sacred fire built there. Is 4 that what you're referring to? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. And do you know where this 7 fire was located? 8 A: It was right near the store, there. 9 Q: On the map that you have in front of 10 you, that is the map of the Camp -- pardon me, the Park, 11 could you maybe make just a circle there and put a letter 12 "F" as to where you recall that fire being -- on P-71? 13 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, P-70. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: P-70. Pardon me. 15 Thank you, Mr. Registrar. You've marked it on there? 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: All right. And can you describe for 20 us, the activities in the Park that day? First of all, 21 were there children, women, in the Park -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- when you got there? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And did that number change throughout
611 the day? 2 A: Oh, we had a lot -- lot of people come 3 in when they heard what was going on. 4 Q: All right. And what kind of 5 activities were people involved in? 6 A: They were sitting around talking, 7 having something to eat, drinking pop, water, talking. 8 Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing Ms. Bonnie 9 Bressette there during that day? 10 A: I don't recall. She might have been 11 there when I took one (1) of my -- took one (1) of my 12 rides up in -- up to the barracks or around the 13 perimeter. 14 Q: All right. And at some point in time, 15 there were some picnic tables that were moved into the 16 sandy parking lot outside of the Park. You're aware of 17 that? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: In fact, you were involved in that? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: I wonder if you could tell us about 22 that, please? 23 A: Well we were -- we were sitting 24 around and somebody said, let's go build a fire out in 25 the -- out in the parking lot, it's cold and they were
621 just going to go sit out there, eh? 2 And I -- me and Nicholas Cottrelle, we had 3 -- we were carrying a picnic table and there was some -- 4 some others behind us. I don't know who they were but 5 when we were carrying the picnic table there -- the OPP 6 car come -- come in there and rammed the picnic table and 7 when he hit the picnic table I was able to get out of the 8 way because the picnic table was behind me and I got out 9 of the way and when it hit, it -- the table hit Nicholas 10 in the -- in the -- somewhere around the knee area there. 11 And I --I didn't see no reason for that, 12 so we started throwing rocks at them. 13 Q: All right. Can you tell us why you 14 were doing this? 15 A: It's our land. We were -- wanted to 16 make -- let the people know that -- that we're home. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: There is a diagram right behind you 21 which we are advised is the parking lot area, the 22 intersection at Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive. 23 And it is marked in these proceedings and I'll get you an 24 exhibit number momentarily. 25 But if you could use your laser pointer
631 and show us where it is that you and Nicholas Cottrell 2 were carrying the picnic table when you were ... 3 A: It was right around in this area. 4 Q: Now you're indicating an area just 5 outside the turnstile? Is that fair? 6 A: Yeah. Because we didn't -- I can't - 7 - I can't remember if we lifted the picnic table up over 8 top of the fence but -- but we had it out there. 9 Q: Okay. And the reason, you tell us, 10 that you were going out into the parking lot is that it 11 was your land. 12 A: Oh yeah. We believed that -- that it 13 was ours. 14 Q: Do you recall who else was present at 15 this moment when you were taking the picnic table out 16 with Nicholas Cottrelle and the -- and a Police vehicle 17 came up? 18 A: Dave. 19 Q: That's Dave George? 20 A: Yeah. Dave George, Wes, Elwood, 21 Judas. 22 Q: These individuals you're naming are 23 last name George? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right, go ahead.
641 A: That's about all I can remember but 2 there was more of us there. 3 Q: Right. Do you recall if J.T. Cousins 4 was there? 5 A: Yeah, I think he was there. 6 Q: The late Dudley George? 7 A: Yeah, he was there. 8 Q: Robert Isaac? 9 A: Yeah, he was there. 10 Q: All right. And there may be others 11 in addition to that? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. When the OPP vehicle came 14 up, can you tell us anything about the speed it was 15 travelling? I gather from what you've told us, you were 16 not injured in this? 17 A: No, I wasn't. He come in there, he - 18 - they was pretty quick and when he got -- he got close 19 he knew he -- I think he hit the brakes and when he hit 20 the brakes he slid into the picnic tables and he put it 21 into reverse and he backed out. 22 Q: All right. And you say your response 23 was to throw stones at him? 24 A: Yeah. Well, like it was the only 25 thing I could think of. You know.
651 Q: Did you see anybody throwing picnic 2 tables on Police vehicles? 3 A: I think Dave -- Dave might have. 4 Q: Did you see this and do you recall 5 that today? And I recognize this is a long time ago, Mr. 6 George. 7 A: Yeah, it is a long time and -- and 8 I'm trying to remember, but -- but I know he was there 9 and -- and they were getting rammed. They -- they were 10 getting drove at, too. 11 Q: All right. Is there anything else 12 that happened on the evening of the 5th that you can 13 recall for us today, sir? 14 A: No. Beside the events that we -- we 15 were throwing rocks at them for -- for them smashing into 16 the picnic tables. 17 Q: Okay. How long were you there that 18 evening, that is, the evening of the 5th of September, 19 '95? 20 A: It was until late. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And then I went back up to the 23 barracks. 24 Q: Do you recall what time you might have 25 went back to the barracks?
661 A: It was -- it was night when I -- 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I never had a watch on. 4 Q: Do you wear a watch even today? 5 A: No, I get water blisters when I wear a 6 watch or a ring or a necklace. 7 Q: Before you had left from the Park, did 8 you hear any gunshots at all? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Did you hear anything that might have 11 sounded like fifty (50) to seventy (70) rounds of 12 automatic gunfire? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you hear any firecrackers being 15 used at all? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Now, I note your anticipated -- your 18 Statement of Anticipated Evidence indicates that you 19 returned to the Park some time after midnight. In fact, 20 that's not correct, is it? 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. So, you returned to the 23 barracks at -- at some point, late in the evening? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And what happens after that,
671 Mr. George? 2 A: I go to sleep. 3 Q: Okay. You returned to the Park at 4 some point? 5 A: Yeah, it was the next morning. 6 Q: Do you recall how you would have got 7 back to the Park and what time? 8 A: It was in the morning and Robert 9 Isaac, again, come and -- come and told me that -- that - 10 - that they need some bodies down at the Park and people 11 because they took the picnic tables away. 12 Q: All right. So you accompanied him 13 back to the Park? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: What was the mood or atmosphere at 16 that point? Was there any difference from the day 17 before? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. I understand that you and -- 20 and the people that you were in the company of were 21 listening to the radio? 22 A: Yeah, somebody had a AM radio plugged 23 in over at the store and they were listening -- listening 24 to the news and -- and they were -- they were trying to 25 get a court injunction. I don't know who was trying to
681 get it, but remember hearing it on the radio. 2 Q: All right. Was there any discussion 3 about what that meant, or what your response would be? 4 A: No, I -- I wasn't -- if there was, I 5 wasn't part of it. 6 Q: All right. You'd indicated that there 7 was police there, at least the day before, at least 8 insofar as the picnic table incident? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Was there police still around? Was 11 there any difference in -- in the numbers of police on 12 the 6th of September from the day previous? 13 A: Not -- not in the morning. There was 14 -- there -- from where I was I -- I could only see that 15 there wasn't that many cops around, eh, until late -- 16 until later on -- until later on, as the day wore on, 17 there was more coming in. I think they were starting to 18 -- starting to -- more and more were starting to 19 accumulate throughout the day. 20 Q: Okay. When you say, "more and more 21 started to accumulate," can you give us a number on that 22 or an estimate? 23 A: Heck, I don't know, there was -- I 24 know that there was a checkpoint along -- along Army Camp 25 Road. I remember seeing them as -- as we -- we would
691 drive up to the barracks on the road that runs parallel 2 to Army Camp Road, and I remember seeing them at that 3 checkpoint, and -- and there was one up on Army Camp Road 4 in-between the main gate in the -- in the Highway 21, in 5 that area somewhere. 6 And there -- there was a -- there was 7 about four (4), maybe five (5), was all standing around 8 at each checkpoint. 9 Q: All right. I'm going to get you to 10 mark on the map in front of you, of the Army Base, I 11 believe Army Camp Road is indicated on that, on the 12 Exhibit that we will mark as P-71 in front of you, we'll 13 put that up on the screen. 14 If you could mark initially on that map, 15 where you recall those checkpoints being. If you could 16 just put the letters "CP" perhaps, with a circle around 17 it. And if you could then take laser pointer and point 18 at the screen as to where you made those markings. 19 A: There was one in this area around 20 here somewhere. 21 Q: All right. Am I right in saying that 22 just on the east, pardon me, west side of that is the 23 trailer park? 24 A: Yeah. There's the trailer park in 25 here somewhere, I think, right around in there.
701 Q: Okay. So there was a checkpoint 2 there an where else did you indicate, Mr. George? 3 A: Right up -- right up here near the 4 highway, between the main gate and the -- the highway. 5 Q: All right. So there were at least 6 two (2) checkpoints along Army Camp Road; is that what 7 you're telling us? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. And your evidence was 10 that there were five (5) or six (6) police officers at 11 each checkpoint? 12 A: Of what I could remember, yeah. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And like I had said before, it's been 15 a long time. 16 Q: Certainly. Did you notice whether 17 those checkpoints were there on the day earlier, that is 18 to say, on the 4th of, pardon me, the 5th of September? 19 A: I can't remember. 20 Q: And I gather you wouldn't remember if 21 they were there on the 4th of September either? 22 A: No, I -- 23 Q: All right. At any point during that 24 day, did you speak to anybody or did you see anybody from 25 the outside coming to talk to the occupiers or attempting
711 to serve any documents on them? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Now you've told us that you heard on 4 the radio that there was, they, whoever they were, were 5 going to obtain a -- a Court injunction? 6 A: They were trying to get a Court 7 injunction. 8 Q: Okay. That's what you recall from 9 the radio reports? 10 A: Yeah. They never said who. 11 Q: All right. And so you never seen -- 12 A: Or I never heard. 13 Q: -- I'm sorry, go ahead. 14 A: No, I never heard who was trying to 15 obtain the Court injunction. 16 Q: All right. Was there any feeling 17 among the people in the Park as to what was going to 18 happen? Did you have a sense, Mr. George, as to what the 19 outcome of this was going to be? 20 A: No, I figured I'd probably end up in 21 jail for -- for a little while. 22 Q: And what do you think you would end 23 up in jail for a little while for? 24 A: Trespassing or something like -- 25 something like that.
721 Q: Did you or did others share -- let me 2 ask this: Did others share that feeling that you would 3 be arrested, probably for trespass? 4 A: I -- I remember when were sitting on 5 a couple of picnic tables, JR was there and -- and JR 6 was -- was saying, oh man, this is -- this is 7 unbelievable, you know, like -- like all the -- the 8 helicopter flying over and -- and that, eh, and Dudley 9 was giggling away at them, 'cause -- because of -- how -- 10 how JR was -- how he was, eh. 11 And he goes, he was telling us, this is 12 unbelievable and all that, eh, -- 13 Q: Who's JR, Mr. George? 14 A: Glenn -- Glenn -- Dudley's nephew. 15 Q: Right. And how old was JR? 16 A: I don't have no idea. He quite 17 younger than us. 18 Q: And when you say Dudley was giggling 19 at him, was it the attitude he was displaying? 20 A: Oh yeah, the way JR was acting like 21 he was a -- scared to go to jail or something, eh? 22 Dudley was poking fun at him. Like -- sort of like 23 teasing him. 24 Q: Okay. You mentioned helicopters 25 flying around. Can you tell us about that?
731 A: Oh yeah, there were -- 2 Q: I gather there was more than one (1) 3 first of all? 4 A: That's what -- I -- I think so, 5 because I remember a red one. The red one was -- was the 6 one that was sitting right up -- right up above the -- 7 where we had the food sitting on the table and that, eh, 8 and the prop wash was blowing dirt and everything all 9 over the place, making a big wind, eh? 10 And I remember Christine she -- she -- 11 Glenn George's sister she -- she had a baby and she -- 12 when she got out of the car she sat the baby on the trunk 13 lid and whoever was flying the helicopter must have -- 14 must have seen her with the baby because -- because they 15 hurry up and took off. 16 He must have knew that -- that -- that 17 wind was a powerful wind, eh? Might have took the breath 18 away from the baby or something, so they -- they took 19 off. 20 Q: Okay. So you got the sense that at 21 least the helicopter pilot had observed the child and had 22 moved so as to avoid ... 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. There was a video played here 25 that -- on October the 20th, Mr. George, when David
741 George was testifying -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: There was a -- evidently a helicopter 4 flying over an area of picnickers. Do you recall that at 5 all? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I remember seeing the video. 9 Q: Do you recall anybody seeing -- 10 anybody attempting to throw rocks at the helicopter. 11 A: It looked like Dave. 12 Q: But do you recall Dave actually doing 13 that today, or do you remember that from seeing the -- 14 the video? 15 A: I remember that from seeing the 16 video. 17 Q: All right. We've heard something 18 about somebody using mirrors to shine the sun into 19 people's faces. Can you tell us about that? 20 A: Oh, that was the kids. They were -- 21 they got a -- they had a mirror they got out, I think it 22 was one (1) of the bathrooms and they had it sitting out 23 on a picnic table reflecting the sun towards the -- 24 towards the police when they were out on the road. 25 They were out there looking -- looking
751 through binoculars and -- and stuff like that, eh? 2 Q: Okay. Do you know why they were 3 doing this? 4 A: Just for fun. I mean, they were just 5 young kids. 6 Q: On the late afternoon of the 6th of 7 September, you were involved in an incident with Gerald 8 George. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Do you want to tell us about that? 11 A: Well, we were -- we were standing in 12 the -- the sandy area where the cars go down to the 13 beach. We were standing there talking and -- and this 14 car comes down the road and pulls up right beside us and 15 -- and here it's Gerald -- Gerald George, he stops and he 16 says, what's going on, guys? 17 And I -- I looked at him, like, I couldn't 18 believe it, you know, because -- because of what he had 19 put in the paper about those people. The guys that are - 20 - were in the -- staying in -- in the Army Camp and I 21 don't -- I don't know why he come down there after -- 22 after he wrote that in the paper, eh? 23 Q: I gather it was something 24 uncomplimentary, was it? 25 A: Yeah.
761 Q: All right. 2 A: And I -- I walked up to his car and 3 asked him what he was doing around here. And he started 4 to say something so I give him a slap and he took off 5 from about -- from here to you away and he stopped and he 6 turned around and looked back at me and said, Worm, 7 you're going to get it. 8 Q: You're indicating he drove away about 9 twenty (20) feet, is that fair? 10 A: Some -- somewhat. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: And then he turned around and looked 13 back at me and told me I was going to get it, so I threw 14 a rock at him. 15 Q: All right. Now, did you flag him down 16 when he came -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- on the scene? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. Did you say anything to 21 him about, going to kick his ass or anything like that? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. What about angry and -- and 24 drunk? Were you in such condition, Mr. George? 25 A: I was angry.
771 Q: Okay. And after Mr. Gerald George 2 stops his vehicle a short distance away from you and 3 tells you that you're going to get it, what was your 4 response? 5 A: I threw a rock at him. 6 Q: And where -- what, if anything, did 7 you hit? 8 A: I hit his car. 9 Q: Okay. What happens after that? 10 A: We just went back to doing what we 11 were doing, watching down the roads and -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- and I wasn't out on the road for 14 very long. I went back into the Park. 15 Q: All right. And again, on the diagram 16 behind you, I wonder if you would just use the laser 17 pointer and tell us where this incident occurred, where 18 the vehicle drove? 19 A: He come down East Parkway Drive in 20 that direction and we were standing out on the road, or 21 out near the road, somewhere in that area and that's 22 where Gerald pulled over and then -- then after --after 23 he took off, he went up Army Camp Road that way. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
781 Q: I wonder if you could maybe just draw 2 a box where Mr. Gerald George's car was and where you 3 were standing, right exactly on that -- on that diagram 4 behind you, sir. 5 A: Well, it's been a long time, I don't 6 remember exactly where, but it was -- 7 Q: To the best of your recollection. 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: All right. If you could just put an 10 "X" where you were standing. 11 A: Well, that's where we were. 12 Q: Okay. All right. 13 A: That's where we were standing when 14 Gerald pulled up. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: In -- in that area somewhere. 17 Q: And then when he left, he drove down 18 Army Camp Road? 19 A: Yeah, he went south on Army Camp Road. 20 Q: Pardon me just one (1) minute. And 21 just to be -- just to be clear, Mr. George, I'm going to 22 ask you to put an "X" where you were standing. I 23 understand that box to be where Gerald George's vehicle 24 was. If you can just put an "X" to indicate where you 25 were standing, please?
791 All right. And did you see where your -- 2 where the rock that you threw at him, whether or not it 3 hit his car, first of all? 4 A: Yeah. It hit underneath the back 5 window. 6 Q: And do you see -- did you see whether 7 or not it caused any damage? 8 A: A small dent, I think. 9 Q: Okay. What kind of rock was it? What 10 size of rock, perhaps, is -- is more accurate? 11 A: It was -- it was big enough to fit in 12 the palm of my hand -- or small enough. 13 Q: Okay. Perhaps, Mr. Commissioner, we 14 have that diagram that he's marked, marked as an exhibit. 15 I think that would be P ... 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-72. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which one? 18 The large one? 19 THE REGISTRAR: The large one, yes, sir. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-72: "Stan" Thompson drawing dated 22 20 September, 1995 marked by 23 witness Stewart Bradley 24 George. 25
801 CONTINUED by MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: Did you have any other dealings with 3 Gerald George on that day? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And after he drove away on Army Camp 6 Road, did you see what he did, if anything? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Do you recall what time of day that 9 was that this occurred, Mr. George? 10 A: No. It was -- it was towards the 11 evening. Like -- like I said, I don't wear a watch. 12 Q: Again, I note on your summary of 13 anticipated evidence, it indicates that you had noted an 14 increase of OPP police presence in the Park during the 15 evening. I gather that's a typo, it ... 16 A: Yeah. There was no police in the 17 Park. We were in the Park. They were on the outside. 18 Q: All right. So what happened with the 19 people inside the Park and standing in the parking lot 20 after Mr. George, that is Gerald George, drove away? 21 A: We just went about doing what were 22 doing. 23 Q: And what was that? 24 A: I guess, just standing around. 25 Q: Were there any fires going at that
811 point? 2 A: I think the one (1) by the store was 3 still going. 4 Q: And when you say you were "just 5 standing around", would that be in the area that you've 6 marked on P-72 -- 7 A: I -- 8 Q: -- in the parking lot or was this 9 inside the Park? 10 A: Where -- where we were standing 11 around? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: It was inside the Park. Like, just 14 across the fence line there. 15 Q: Okay. And what's the next thing you 16 recall happening? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: I remember -- I noticed the increase 21 of police officers getting more and more of them starting 22 to accumulate and starting to spot more and more of them. 23 Q: Where would you be seeing these 24 accumulating officers? 25 A: Down the road and they were -- they
821 were starting to come up closer to the -- to the bend in 2 the Army Camp Road and the -- in the -- East Parkway 3 Drive. They were -- they were -- they were coming closer 4 and closer to where we were. 5 Q: And which direction were they coming 6 from? Now you mentioned Army Camp Road and East Parkway 7 Drive -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- where were they coming from if -- 10 if you know? 11 A: Down Army Camp Road and down East 12 Parkway Drive. 13 Q: From both directions? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: All right. Go ahead. What happens? 16 A: Then we just noticed that and noticed 17 their build up and we were kept doing what we were doing, 18 just hanging around and -- and I -- I can't remember how 19 we got to the -- got to the point what happened in 20 between where -- that and when the -- you know, when the 21 -- the point -- they -- they -- when they came down the 22 road. 23 And they were -- they were starting to get 24 right -- they were -- more and more were starting to 25 appear on the -- on the bend of the road there.
831 Q: I wonder if you might just indicate 2 on that map behind you. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Okay, you're indicating at the 7 intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive? 8 A: Yeah, we noticed a few more of them 9 showing up in that area. And then -- I'm trying to 10 think. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: And then at some point they -- I 15 don't know. They -- they were -- they were accumulating 16 there and I can't remember how it -- how it started but - 17 - but I remember when the -- they had their -- I seen a 18 guy walking a dog over there, so -- so I went up and got 19 -- got our dog and... 20 Q: Where did you get your dog from? 21 A: He was up at -- at where we were 22 living. So, no sooner opened the door he must have -- 23 the dog, he must have spotted the other dog and -- and he 24 jumped out of the car and over the fence and -- and -- 25 and I came -- I think -- I think -- but I can't remember
841 correctly or how -- I know I was standing at the -- over 2 near the store when -- when somebody said, hey, Worm, 3 they kicked your dog. 4 But I think -- they were -- it's real hard 5 to remember how -- what -- how the -- what happened in 6 between and how we got to the point of where the -- where 7 we got into the clash with the police because it's been 8 so long and I was -- never -- never thought it -- thought 9 anything was going to be done about it, so I tried to put 10 it out of my mind. 11 And now I'm having a hard time 12 remembering. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: And what I do remember that -- that 15 they did hit the dog and somebody yelled over, Hey Worm, 16 they hit your dog and I went over to the fence and I 17 asked them who hit the -- who hit the dog, eh? And ... 18 Q: What did you say? What do you 19 remember saying? 20 A: Who hit my fucking dog? Something -- 21 something to that. And -- and -- 22 Q: Did you get a response? 23 A: Yeah they -- the cops come up -- come 24 up to the fence and -- and I can't remember exactly how 25 it happened but I remember the cop, the one cop saying,
851 Why, what are you going to do about it? And they he -- 2 then he made a -- flicked his wrist like that and his -- 3 his night stick come out and swung at me and -- and I put 4 my shoulder up and he hit me across the shoulder there. 5 And he says, Why, what are you going to do 6 about it? And somebody behind me says, Yeah, what are 7 you going to do about it? 8 So I looked and -- and I seen this -- 9 there was a pick-axe handle because it was straight and 10 it had red tape on the end. And I said, Give me that 11 stick. And I -- I swung and hit him back. 12 Q: Okay. Can you tell us how this 13 police officer was dressed? 14 A: He had a shield, he had a helmet on 15 and the whole -- whole shebang. 16 Q: Can you describe the shield? 17 A: It had --it was a clear -- was a 18 clear shield and it had "OPP" on the front of it. 19 Q: Okay. And you say he had a helmet 20 on. Can you -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- describe that? 23 A: It had -- he had -- it was round on - 24 - you know, and it had a shield in front. 'Cause I -- I 25 couldn't see his face because I was looking down at him.
861 He was shorter than I was, at the time, because I might 2 have been standing on a clump of sand or something but I 3 remember I -- I looked -- I was looking down at him and I 4 couldn't see his face. 5 Q: All right. What was the lighting 6 like in the area? 7 A: I know there was a little bit of 8 light behind -- behind the police, but I can't remember 9 how much light was in the Park because I remember when -- 10 when the fighting started, I could see a -- a stream 11 coming up over from behind the police, eh? 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Like a sunbeam squirt -- a squirt over 14 top and I could see that and I put my hand up over it and 15 put my hand up to stop it from -- from getting -- I think 16 they were trying to pepper spray us. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And I -- I -- I could see that out of 19 the -- out of the lights behind the cottages there. 20 Q: What about from inside the Park, was 21 there any illumination? I recognize you've just told us 22 that you can't recall. 23 A: I think there might have been lights 24 on in the store, but I'm not sure. 25 Q: All right. Do you recall whether
871 anybody had floodlights or spotlights from inside the 2 Park? 3 A: Two (2) of the guys did, yeah. 4 Q: And do know whether or not at that 5 point in time those were being used? 6 A: I don't -- I don't know because a lot 7 of us were right up at the fence -- fence line, eh? We - 8 - we were all starting to -- starting to fight with the 9 police. 10 Q: And when you say all of us, how many 11 is that? 12 A: I don't know. I -- around fifteen 13 (15). Somewhere around there. 14 Q: And do you recall how many police 15 there might have been? 16 A: Heck, there was -- there was a lot 17 more than us. 18 Q: Okay. Can you tell me how you were 19 dressed at the time? 20 A: I had blue jeans on and I had -- I got 21 -- I still got the shirt at home that I had on that 22 night. It was a -- it was a red -- a red shirt with 23 black squares on it and it -- I -- I think I had running 24 shoes on. That's all. 25 Q: And when you say you took a -- a
881 pickaxe handle from somebody and struck back at the 2 police officer, did you strike the police officer? 3 A: I know I hit his shield and his 4 helmet. 5 Q: All right. Did you see other police 6 officers similarly dressed, that is to say, with the 7 shield and the helmets? 8 A: They were all like that. 9 Q: Okay. And can you give us an estimate 10 as to how many you recall today seeing? 11 A: There was -- there was a lot of them. 12 Q: You've indicated at least more than 13 fifteen (15)? 14 A: Yeah. There was more than that. 15 Q: All right. And you were struck with, 16 I think you said a -- again, I don't want to put words in 17 your mouth -- a club? 18 A: No, I think it was a -- it was a -- 19 some sort of night stick, the one that -- it folds down 20 and folds out like a car antenna. 21 Q: All right. And it's made out of what? 22 A: Steel. 23 Q: All right. So what happens after you 24 strike back at the police officer and hit his shield? 25 A: I think Bernard -- I think that's when
891 Bernard went over the fence to try -- to try and reason 2 with the police. 3 Q: You're referring to Cecil Bernard 4 George? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. And what makes you think 7 he was trying to reason with the police? 8 A: Well, I -- I thought I heard him 9 saying that and I -- that these people are -- let me 10 think about this. I've got to -- 11 Q: Sure. 12 A: It's been -- it's been a while. 13 I know he was -- he was saying something - 14 - something to them because -- because they -- they 15 grabbed a hold of him and started kicking the shit out of 16 him. 17 Q: When he was saying something to them, 18 was he inside the Park or outside the Park? 19 A: He was across the fence in -- in 20 where the -- where the cars go down to the beach. 21 Q: Okay. And on the map behind you, 22 could you just point, with the laser pointer, as to where 23 you recall him being when he was grabbed? You're 24 indicating the area just outside of the turnstile? 25 A: Yeah.
901 Q: All right. You see him get grabbed; 2 can you tell us what -- what it is that you observed? 3 A: I remember glancing over because I 4 was getting -- I was getting clubbed at too, and I quick 5 -- took a couple of quick glances and -- and I could hear 6 -- hear -- hear him getting clubbed, eh, of how hard they 7 were hitting him, 'cause I heard that sound before. 8 And -- and we were all out in the parking 9 lot just fighting with the -- fighting with the cops, and 10 -- and then I remember hearing -- I was pretty sure it 11 was my son, that -- saying, like, Hey, they -- they shot 12 Dudley, they shot Dudley. Like it sounded like he was 13 half crying or something. And then I took off running 14 over that way. 15 Q: When you say, "that way," which way 16 is that? 17 A: It was -- it was on the -- the 18 driver's side of the bus, eh, 'cause that's where, like, 19 that I remember running in front of the bus and I was 20 looking around and then I seen Dudley laying there on the 21 ground. 22 Q: Okay. Now you've just described a 23 bus for us, that's the first you've described of that, 24 how did -- how did that bus come to be there? 25 A: I can't remember.
911 Q: So your recollection is, is that 2 you're engaged in fighting with -- with the -- a 3 police...? 4 A: There -- there was a whole bunch of 5 them. 6 Q: All right. And you notice Cecil 7 Bernard George being grabbed and being beaten? 8 A: Yeah, I just glanced over a couple of 9 times because I -- I didn't want to get clubbed around 10 myself. 11 Q: Okay. And the next thing you recall 12 is running in front of the bus, is that what...? 13 A: No, I -- and I hear -- and I hear 14 what sounded like my son, -- 15 Q: Right. 16 A: -- and saying, they -- they -- they 17 shot Dudley, they shot Dudley, like, sounded like he was 18 half crying. 19 Q: This is your son, Leland? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And how old was Leland at that time? 22 A: Thirteen (13). 23 Q: Okay. Did you see where he was when 24 he was saying this? 25 A: No. But I could -- I could hear him.
921 Q: All right. And your next 2 recollection then, Mr. George, is running in front of the 3 bus; is that what I understand? 4 A: Yeah. I ran in front of the bus and, 5 now -- 6 Q: Was the bus moving at that point? 7 A: I don't recall. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I got to the driver's side of the bus 10 and there was Dudley laying on the ground. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I looked down at him, looked to me 13 like had a -- a bullet hole in his chest area there. 14 Q: You're indicating somewhere in the 15 sternum area? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: He was just laying there -- laying 19 there and -- and I -- I thought it was Robert Isaac who 20 helped me, who had -- grabbed him under the armpits and - 21 - and we dragged him back to the "OPP Who" car and -- and 22 I remember letting go, 'cause there was -- there was more 23 guys -- guys around there to -- there -- they were start 24 pulling them into the OPP Who Car and -- and I jumped 25 behind the -- the dumpster that was there.
931 And I think it was Duck Doxtater that was 2 back there in -- in -- and I thought that there was -- 3 there was still young guys -- our guys -- our guys are 4 still out there and I jumped out from -- from behind the 5 -- the dumpster and -- and at that instant I heard what 6 sounded like more firecrackers going off and I could feel 7 bullets, bullets going by me. 8 And I ran to the front of the bus and I -- 9 I called back it up, back it up, there -- these guys are 10 -- they're shooting. And Waldo's car, what just happened 11 -- happened to be in front of that and -- and I went up 12 and I pounded on the back of his car and just as I did 13 that, the back tire exploded because I could feel it on 14 my legs when -- when it exploded and I was yelling, Back 15 it up. They're -- they're shooting, they're shooting and 16 then I don't remember anything after that. 17 Q: Okay. When you say that you and who 18 you believed to be Robert Isaac took the late Dudley 19 George to the "OPP Who" car, where was the "OPP Who" car? 20 A: It was -- it was back in -- inside the 21 fence there. 22 Q: Inside the Park? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And where was it that you think you 25 had picked the late Dudley George up?
941 A: He was laying around here on the 2 ground. 3 Q: I wonder if you would just mark on 4 that map -- if you could put a -- the initials "DG" 5 there, please. 6 And you've indicated that there was a bus 7 there that you had banged on and told it to backup. 8 Where was it when you told them to -- or you told the -- 9 whoever was operating the bus to backup? 10 Would you go ahead and just draw a box 11 there with a -- with the letter "B" on there to indicate 12 that that is the bus. 13 And what is that other mark that you put 14 there? 15 A: It was Waldo's car. 16 Q: All right. And the dumpster that you 17 were behind, where was that located? 18 A: I'm pretty sure it was there in that 19 area, from what I can remember. 20 Q: All right. And just for the record, 21 Mr. Registrar, the box that Mr. George has marked as 22 Gerald George's vehicle, if we could mark that as 1. 23 So we'll put a 1 beside that box, if you 24 would please, Mr. George -- Gerald George's vehicle? 25 And then if we could put a 2 beside the bus and a 3
951 beside Warren's car and a 4 beside the dumpster. All 2 right. 3 When you picked up Dudley George, did you 4 notice whether there was any firearms in his immediate 5 vicinity? 6 A: I never seen any. 7 Q: What about a stick? 8 A: I don't recall seeing a stick, 9 either. 10 Q: All right. Do you know whether any 11 of the individuals that you were with at the line 12 involved in this skirmish with the police had firearms? 13 A: Nobody had firearms, not -- not none 14 of the occupiers. 15 Q: You seem pretty certain about that, 16 Mr. George. Why is that? 17 A: Well, it's a peace -- it was a 18 peaceful occupation and one of the things that -- that 19 was agreed upon, no firearms. 20 Q: Okay. Do you recall giving a 21 statement to the Special Investigations Unit at some 22 point after this incident? 23 A: A time after, yeah. 24 Q: Do you know when that might have been 25 and how long after this incident?
961 A: I don't know how long after, but I -- 2 I remember talking to them. 3 Q: And if I suggested to you that you 4 may have provided more information at that point than 5 you do today, do you have any comments on that? 6 A: I forgot. I try to forget because I 7 never thought anything was going to be done about it. 8 Q: I'm interested in your comment that 9 this was meant to be a peaceful demonstration. 10 A: Well, no -- no firearms or anything 11 like that. 12 Q: And the fight that you had with the 13 police, striking the police with a pick axe handle? 14 A: Well, after I -- after I got clubbed 15 -- you know, it kind of pisses a fella off. 16 Q: When you said you heard what sounded 17 like firecrackers after you came out from behind the 18 dumpster, did you hear that sound previously? 19 A: I can't remember if I did but I -- I 20 know I did when I got out from behind that dumpster and 21 I swore I heard what sounded like firecrackers. 22 Q: And could you give us an estimate of 23 how many sounds like firecrackers you heard? 24 A: There was a lot. 25 Q: Can you help us out with a number on
971 that at all? Even an estimate, other than "a lot"? And 2 I appreciate if you cannot, that's -- 3 A: Like -- like I said before, it's 4 been a long time. 5 Q: And at some point in time you were 6 informed that, in fact, Mr. Dudley George had deceased? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Do you know when that was and who 9 would have advised you? 10 A: I can't remember whose car I was in 11 but when we were -- we were going by the maintenance 12 shed my sister had told me that Mike Price had phoned 13 and Dudley died. 14 Q: Who's Mike Price? 15 A: Dudley's brother-in-law. 16 Q: And your sister, that would be...? 17 A: Tina. 18 Q: And you don't know what time of day 19 that was -- 20 A: It was at -- 21 Q: -- or what time of night, rather? 22 A: It was at night time. It was night 23 time. That's all -- I never -- no idea what time it 24 was. 25 Q: What's the next thing you remember,
981 Mr. George? 2 A: I remember meeting up with Judas and 3 then some other cars and -- and I got out of the car and 4 told them that Tina just told me that -- that Dudley 5 died. 6 And somebody says, burn that fucking park 7 store down. 8 Q: What did you do? 9 A: Burnt the park store down. 10 Q: What happened after that? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I remember that I went back up to 15 the barracks. How I got there, I don't know 'cause I 16 could remember the people coming down the road the next 17 morning and feeling -- that feeling when I seen all 18 those people coming down the road and feeling that I was 19 going to live. 20 Q: Do I gather from that, Mr. George, 21 that you didn't think that you were going to live before 22 that? 23 A: Oh no, I -- well -- no telling that 24 they were going to come back and finish -- finish the 25 rest of us guys that -- that never got shot.
991 Q: Okay. It would be fair to say that 2 you were fearful that that was going to happen? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: There were non-members who -- that 5 is non-Stoney Point members -- that were in the Park at 6 this time? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And during the altercation with the 9 police? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Robert Isaac, for example, he's not 12 from Stoney Point? 13 A: No. 14 Q: He was from Walpole Island? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. Gabriel Doxtator? 17 A: From Oneida. 18 Q: Okay. Al George? 19 A: Oneida. 20 Q: There was Russ and Les Jewel? 21 A: I think they were from Oneida, I'm 22 not sure. 23 Q: All right. There was an individual 24 there by the name of Dutchie? 25 A: I think he's from Muncey.
1001 Q: And do you know -- do you know what 2 his real name might be? 3 A: I know his last name is French. 4 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not any 5 of these individuals were armed? 6 A: They -- they weren't armed. 7 Q: By "armed" I mean firearms. 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not 10 they had shared what you had told us earlier and that is 11 that this was meant to be peaceful, at least, no 12 firearms, I think, to use your words? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And how do you know that? 15 A: Buck probably told them that there 16 were no -- no firearms. 17 Q: When you say, "Buck probably told 18 them," I gather you weren't there -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- for anything that Buck might have 21 said. 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. Did you talk to any of 24 these individuals during the time that you were in the 25 Park with them?
1011 A: I can't remember. 2 Q: All right. And just to be clear, is 3 it your evidence that at no time did you see any 4 firearms among the Occupiers of the Park? 5 A: I never seen no firearms. 6 Q: All right. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Is there anything else that you can 11 add to this event, Mr. George? 12 A: In which way? 13 Q: Well, is there anything else that you 14 recall, having answered these questions, that might aid 15 us in understanding what happened on that evening? 16 A: Not right at the moment. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: But things do happen and, like, 19 something will happen and it will trigger a -- trigger a 20 -- a memory, eh? Like something -- somebody will say 21 something or something will happen and then I'll -- then 22 I'll remember something from -- something from before. 23 It'll -- it'll activate a memory or something because 24 right now I -- I can't remember anything else. 25 Q: All right.
1021 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I think those are all my questions, 4 Mr. George. Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Those are all my 8 questions. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much, Mr. Worme. 11 Do any of the Parties wish to examine 12 this Witness and, if so, I'd appreciate if you'd give me 13 some indication. Maybe we can do that before lunch. 14 Is that -- if anybody wishes to examine, 15 I'd appreciate it if you'd give me some indication -- 16 stand, hold your hand, something. Okay. Would you help 17 me, please, Katherine, make a note of who's indicating 18 they want to -- Mr. Orkin...? 19 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Five (5) minutes, Mr. 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 22 minutes? 23 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Five (5) minutes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And -- yes? 25 Yes?
1031 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Approximately ten 2 (10) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 4 Approximately ten (10) minutes. On behalf of the OPP? 5 Yes, Mr. -- 6 MR. PETER WEST: Half an hour. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 8 I didn't hear that. 9 MR. PETER WEST: Half an hour, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Half an 12 hour. OPPA...? 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Two (2) to three (3) 14 hours. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2) to 16 three (3) hours. 17 Yes, I'm sorry, Mr. Downard...? 18 Mr. PETER DOWNARD: I reserve half an 19 hour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Half an 21 hour. 22 Mr. Eyolfson...? 23 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Maybe five (5) 24 minutes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Any others?
1041 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Probably about 2 fifteen (15) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you -- 4 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Depends on how it 5 goes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 7 fine. It's possible we would get it done today, but 8 it's possible we won't. Do you want to start right now? 9 If you said five (5) minutes, we might start right now 10 and let's do that. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 15 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 16 A: Good afternoon. 17 Q: My name is Andrew Orkin and, for the 18 record, I am co-Counsel to the Estate of Dudley George 19 and to the George family -- to the Sam George family 20 group. 21 I'd like to ask you three (3) brief 22 questions which, as I said, will just take a few minutes 23 of our time. 24 Mr. George, we anticipate that later in 25 this Inquiry there may be evidence led that an incident
1051 took place at the corner of Army Camp Road and East 2 Parkway at around 7:00 or 8:00 p.m. in the evening. 3 Were you in that vicinity at around 7:00 4 or 8:00 p.m. on the night of -- evening of September the 5 6th? 6 A: Like I -- I don't know. I didn't -- 7 didn't have no watch. I never had no -- no ... 8 Q: At the end of the day, as it was 9 starting to get dark or it was -- it was already dark. 10 Late afternoon, early evening, were you in the vicinity 11 of the -- of the sandy parking lot at that time? 12 A: I may have been. 13 Q: Perhaps? If -- if an incident took 14 place that had involved eight (8) or ten (10) native 15 males with baseball bats on the roadway in that 16 vicinity, in which it was stated that a number of 17 protesters were banging or whacking with baseball bats 18 on the car of a passing non-native woman, might you have 19 heard about that incident? 20 A: Yeah, I would know -- would have 21 heard about it. 22 Q: Did you hear of any such incident? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You did not? Thank you. Mr. 25 George, you just told us that you had helped set up the
1061 picnic tables in the area in the vicinity of the sandy 2 parking lot because you believed it was your people's 3 land. Is that correct? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Irrespective of the issue of -- of 6 that particular area actually being your people's land, 7 did you believe that you had the right to assemble or to 8 demonstrate about your grievances in a public place like 9 that sandy parking lot? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Thank you. Finally, Mr. George, you 12 indicated that sometime earlier at the Base, on a 13 roadway, and you specified on a map which roadway it 14 was, that an object like that spiked object had been 15 placed in the road and that you were travelling on the 16 road, I believe, with your headlight on? Your lights 17 on? 18 A: It was only one (1) headlight on my 19 dirt bike. 20 Q: On your dirt bike. That was a 21 motorcycle of some kind? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Could you tell us what you think 24 might have happened if you, on your trail bike, had 25 collided with the spiked object on the road without
1071 seeing it in the darkness? 2 A: It would have flattened my front 3 tire and I probably would have landed on it. 4 Q: And if you -- you would have landed 5 on it, or -- or perhaps gone over your -- got off your 6 bike in some way? 7 A: Well the -- there -- there's a -- 8 there's a curve where it goes into the bush and it, 9 where you're going around this curve, it -- it was right 10 there, and I was lucky -- lucky enough I'd -- I seen it 11 and so, like, I hurried up and turned off to the side 12 and when I was putting my brake on. 13 Q: And avoided colliding with that -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- with an object like that one? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions, 18 Mr. Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much, Mr. Orkin. Would you like to try to get in 21 before lunch? Let's try that too. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 24 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 25 A: Good afternoon.
1081 Q: Good afternoon. My apologies. Do 2 you have any knowledge of spilled waste near the 3 maintenance road in the Park? 4 A: Well, on -- on the map there, they 5 had a sewage treatment for RVs. 6 Q: Sorry, there was a sewage treatment 7 plant on the maintenance road in the Park? 8 A: Well, they used to go and dump their 9 holding tanks. 10 Q: Who used to do that? 11 A: Campers. 12 Q: And do you -- do you have knowledge 13 as to the location of those dumps? Was that -- pardon 14 me -- do you believe that that would have been near the 15 burial grounds that you've identified for us this 16 morning? 17 A: Probably right on them. 18 Q: Now you told Mr. Worme that you 19 placed the picnic tables in sandy parking lot in part 20 because you believe that that was your land? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Do I understand, sir, that in your 23 view, the sandy parking lot is part of the original 24 Reserve that was set off as Stoney Point? 25 A: Yes.
1091 Q: You described what's been called the 2 picnic table incident, where the cruisers -- a cruiser 3 drove at the picnic table that you were carrying? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Could you tell me, how many cruisers 6 were there during that incident? 7 A: Two (2) or three (3). 8 Q: Now, in reference to the incident 9 with Mr. Gerald George, you had mentioned something 10 about, there was something in the newspaper? 11 A: Yup. 12 Q: And I understand Mr. George had sent 13 a letter to a newspaper? 14 A: The Forest Standard. 15 Q: The Forest Standard, and that was 16 shortly before this incident occurred? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And he referred to what he called 19 the Army Camp Indians as animals and jerks? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And you told us that when he drove 22 up to that intersection, he said something to the effect 23 of, what's going on here? 24 A: He goes, what's going on guys? 25 Q: What's going on guys?
1101 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Did he say anything to you that 3 would indicate why he was there, apart from that 4 question? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And you said he came along East 7 Parkway Drive...? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Are you aware of whether there were 10 any checkpoints on East Parkway Drive at that time of 11 day? 12 A: I have no idea. 13 Q: Were there any passengers in the 14 car? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Do you recall how many other people 17 there were at that intersection at that time? 18 A: Around three (3) or four (4). 19 Q: Now, I -- I anticipate we may hear 20 evidence that in the OPP's view, there had been an 21 escalation in the incident, in part because a civilian 22 motorist had his vehicle pelted with rocks and hit with 23 baseball bats? 24 A: I never heard nothing of that. 25 Q: And you would agree with me that if
1111 that's in reference to the incident that you took part 2 in with Mr. George, that would not be an accurate 3 description of what occurred? 4 A: No, and nobody -- nobody hit his 5 car, just me. 6 Q: And that was one (1) rock that you 7 described that fit in the palm of your hand? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And you described an increase in the 10 police presence in the area on September 6, 1995? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Do you recall whether you noticed 13 that buildup before the incident with Mr. George or 14 after? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I think it started to happen before 19 he was -- before he come along. 20 Q: And you've told us that there were 21 women and children in the Park. 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: Are you aware whether there was ever 24 any decision made that -- that evening of September 6th 25 that all of the women and children should leave?
1121 A: Yeah, when -- when the -- when the 2 police were coming down the road I think that the women 3 and children were supposed to have gone up the barracks 4 because that's where I thought Leland had gone. 5 Q: And to your knowledge there were 6 still women and children in the Park at the time that 7 Mr. Dudley George was shot? 8 A: I don't know whose children, but I -- 9 I think that Darlene -- there was a girl called Darlene 10 in there, in the Park. I think that's the only woman I 11 knew of had been there. 12 Q: And your son was there? 13 A: I had -- later on I had found out, 14 yeah. 15 Q: Thank you. Those are all my 16 questions today. Thank you very much for your evidence. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. Mr. Eyolfson, do you want to try to get in 19 before lunch? 20 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Sure. 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: 23 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 24 A: Good afternoon. 25 Q: My name is Brian Eyolfson and I'm
1131 from -- I'm Counsel for Aboriginal Legal Services of 2 Toronto. I just had a couple of very quick questions 3 for you. 4 You described an incident with a Mr. 5 Howard Simcoe and you indicated that you had -- that was 6 reported to the police. Is that correct? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: In fact you -- you had set up a -- a 9 meeting with the police or someone had set up a meeting? 10 A: Yeah, it happened in Argument Hall. 11 Q: Right. And I believe you indicated 12 nothing became of that? 13 A: I -- I've never heard nothing. 14 Q: Okay. And how did you feel about 15 that? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: How did I feel? I really never 20 thought about it, kind of, you know, you report 21 something and nothing ever becomes of it and -- you 22 really feel like you're wasting time reporting stuff 23 like that; nothing ever gets done. 24 Q: Okay. Now you also described an 25 incident where you were riding your dirt bike on the
1141 road and there was an object on the road like the one -- 2 and object like the one next to you. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. Now, did you report that 5 incident to the police or any other authority? 6 A: No, I -- I went down -- down to the 7 beach and -- where -- where the young guys were in the - 8 - in the bus and sitting around the fire and -- and I 9 showed Waldo and Marlin one (1) of those -- just one (1) 10 of those because when it fell apart -- one (1) of them 11 fell off the end and I -- I tied it on the handlebars to 12 my -- on my bike so I could show them what -- what was 13 laying across the road. 14 And when -- when they -- when they seen 15 it we -- we went up and we checked around in the bush 16 where I had thrown them and we -- we found one (1), but 17 the army had -- must have found the other one because 18 they come back probably looking for them to see about -- 19 to see if my bike or anything was laying around there. 20 Q: But did you consider reporting it to 21 the police or any other authority? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Why not? 24 A: Waste of time. 25 Q: I -- I understand you -- you
1151 described an incident a bit later where you threw a beer 2 bottle at a military patrol, I believe it was? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And you were charged as a result of 5 that incident? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And how did you feel about that? 8 A: How did I feel? Like I was getting 9 the short end of the stick again. 10 Q: Okay. Thank you, those are all my 11 questions. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much. I think we'll break now for lunch and Mr. 14 West, you'll start after lunch. Is that all right? 15 MR. PETER WEST: That's fine, Mr. 16 Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then we'll 18 break now until two o'clock. Is that all right? 2:00 19 or 2:05. I guess it's ten to 1:00, why don't we break 20 now until 2:05 to give you an hour and fifteen (15) 21 minutes. 22 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 23 Inquiry stands adjourned until 2:05. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 12:50 p.m.
1161 --- Upon resuming at 2:11 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed. Please be seated. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. West? 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER WEST: 8 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 9 A: Good afternoon. 10 Q: Sir, my name is Peter West and I 11 represent the OPP in these proceedings. 12 Now, it's indicated in your evidence that 13 you did not move with the Occupiers into the rifle range 14 area of the army camp in 19 -- May of 1993. 15 A: No. 16 Q: But I think, as you indicated, you 17 visited fairly frequently, because a number of your 18 friends were living in that rifle range area. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And I'm going to suggest that you 21 would be a person who supported what they did because 22 you believed that you had a right as First Nations 23 people to that land? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And when the Occupiers moved from the
1171 rifle range on July the 29th, 1995, I think you 2 indicated as well that you weren't part of that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: When they moved into the barracks 5 area, the built-up area? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Is that right? That's correct, 8 right? 9 A: Oh, yeah. 10 Q: But again, you probably visited up 11 until the middle of August when you moved there, right? 12 And you would have supported those who moved into the 13 built-up area -- the Occupiers -- because they believed 14 and you believed that you had a right to that land? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And I think you indicated that 17 on September the 4th of 1995, you were just outside the 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park at around 4:00 p.m. in the 19 afternoon when you have this exchange with some OPP 20 police officers on Matheson Drive and you're with Judas? 21 A: Yeah, I -- I -- know -- I didn't know 22 what time it was, I knew it was in the afternoon. 23 Q: I'm going to suggest it's still light 24 out, it's not night time yet. 25 A: Yeah.
1181 Q: Is that fair? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. And basically, what's -- 4 there's a heated verbal exchange -- would that be a fair 5 way to describe it? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: On the part of everybody, I guess, 8 that's involved in that. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And you say that Judas' TransAm is 11 blue? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay, not black? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 16 you, sir, and it maybe that you just don't remember it 17 today, but there was discussion while you were living in 18 the built-up area in the weeks leading up to September 19 the 4th, that there was going to be another push into 20 Ipperwash Provincial Park after the Labour Day weekend 21 and that the First Nations people were, in effect, going 22 to occupy those lands? 23 A: I was never no part of no -- no -- 24 Q: Talking? 25 A: No.
1191 Q: You never overhead anybody saying 2 that this was what was -- something that they wanted to 3 do? 4 A: I don't recall -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- anybody talking about -- 7 Q: So, I guess what you're saying is 8 that it -- could have been talked about, you just don't 9 have a recollection today? 10 A: I don't know. I can't say it could 11 have been or it couldn't have been. 12 Q: I understand. One (1) or the other, 13 right? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. Because you know and we all 16 know here that on September the 4th at around 5:30, to 17 begin, certain First Nations people went into the Park. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And initially there was -- we've 20 heard some evidence from David George that he had a tire 21 iron and there was an attempt to break the lock at one 22 of the gates? 23 A: I don't know, I wasn't there. 24 Q: I understand. And then later 25 someone came with some bolt cutters?
1201 A: I don't know, I wasn't there. 2 Q: Okay. You do know that one of the 3 locks on one of the gates though ultimately was broken 4 off or cut off in some fashion. You became aware of 5 that, right? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Because the gates were allowed to be 8 opened and closed, right? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Now I'm going to suggest that you 11 would have supported the push into Ipperwash Provincial 12 Park by the First Nations because again, you believed 13 they had a right to that land? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I think you've already told us 16 that the sandy parking lot area that's adjacent to the 17 Park -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- on the west side, okay? The 20 picnic tables were being set up there to assert your 21 right again to that land, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that's why we're heard some 24 evidence here that the tables were set up in a circle? 25 A: I wasn't there when they were in the
1211 circle. I left that -- that evening. 2 Q: All right. Were you there when the 3 fire was started? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Where the picnic tables were out in 6 the sandy parking lot? 7 A: No. I went back up to the barracks. 8 Q: Okay. Now just going back to 9 September 4th, I think you indicated that you had been 10 consuming beer down on the beach at the -- sort of the 11 top of Matheson Drive with some friends? 12 A: No. We were further on down the 13 beach. 14 Q: Right. But you'd been consuming, I 15 think you told us, some beer -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- is that right? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And do you know how many 20 beers you would have had before you encountered the OPP 21 officers? 22 A: Quite a few, yeah. 23 Q: Quite a few? Okay. I guess you 24 weren't -- weren't feeling any pain? 25 A: No.
1221 Q: Okay. And now were you aware of the 2 lands to the west of Army Camp Road? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Do you -- look at the -- you can 5 sort of see some of them. Where this trailer park would 6 have been going down even to the lake and there were 7 some cottages, I think, to the west of the Park? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And were you -- was it your view 10 that some of those lands as well belong to the First 11 Nations people? 12 A: Right over to the road -- 13 Q: Over this -- 14 A: -- I think it's Singer -- 15 Q: -- Ravens Road? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Right over to Ravens Road? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And had there -- were you 20 ever part of any talk in terms of ultimately those lands 21 being reclaimed? 22 A: Was I any -- any part of any talks? 23 Q: Part of any talks where you 24 overheard it or whether you personally were actually 25 saying, yeah, those are our lands, we should take those
1231 over as well? 2 A: I wasn't in no discussions. 3 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If I may -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh. Yes. 5 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- there is no time 6 frame put on that question as to discussions, it was as 7 a whole. There's no time frame as, did it occur before 8 September of 1995 which I understand most likely is My 9 Friend's question, but it was overly broad in my -- 10 MR. PETER WEST: He just said he was 11 not -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 13 know anything so it doesn't matter. 14 MR. PETER WEST: So it doesn't matter. 15 He says he didn't know, so that's fine. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It doesn't 17 matter, that's fine. 18 MR. PETER WEST: If he said that he 19 knew -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 21 need to go into any kind of detail. 22 MR. PETER WEST: -- I would have had 23 then had to establish approximately when he would have 24 had those discussions. 25
1241 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER WEST: 2 Q: In terms of, though, there are other 3 lands to the east of the army camp itself. You know, 4 the large property of the army camp? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And what's called Port Franks? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: You're aware -- I'll ask you what 9 your view is. Is it your view that those lands are 10 lands that are owned by First Nations? Should be owned 11 by First Nations? 12 A: Yeah, they should be. 13 Q: And I'll ask it this way. Were you 14 aware of any discussions prior to September of 1995 -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- about -- I haven't finished yet, 17 just two (2) seconds -- about whether or not those lands 18 should be reclaimed for First Nations? 19 A: What was that again? 20 Q: Whether there was -- you were part 21 of any discussions or you had any discussions, you made 22 any comments that those lands over by Port Franks? 23 A: I never made no comment about any 24 land. 25 Q: Over by Port Franks?
1251 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And you didn't hear any 3 discussion about that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Now, as far as you were 6 aware, while the occupiers were living in the rifle 7 range, between May of 1993 and July of 1995, where you 8 visited, you told us, on a fairly regular basis; right? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: I'm going to suggest to you at no 11 time did the OPP ever attempt to remove the occupiers 12 who were living on that land. 13 A: I don't recall any attempts. 14 Q: Okay. And after the occupiers moved 15 into the built-up area on July 29th, 1995, and you were 16 living there, you told us, from the middle of August of 17 1995, through and to September the 4th of 1995, I'm 18 going to suggest to you that at no time did the OPP 19 attempt to remove the occupiers from that land. 20 A: I don't recall any attempts. 21 Q: Okay. And as far as you were 22 personally aware, Mr. George, I'm going to suggest, at 23 no time that you were ever on the property of Ipperwash 24 Provincial Park, after September the 4th, 1995, up to 25 September the 6th, 1995, did you ever observe OPP
1261 officers attempting to oust the occupiers who had taken 2 over the Park? 3 A: I don't recall. 4 Q: And as I understand your evidence, 5 you were not present either at some point on the evening 6 of the 4th of September, the early morning hours of 7 September the 5th of 1995, when Vince George, and I 8 think the MNR Superintendent, and other OPP officers 9 attended to attempt to serve some papers? 10 A: No, I wasn't aware. 11 Q: You weren't there then? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. Did you hear about that the 14 next day on September the 5th, when you were at -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: You didn't even hear about it? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No one told you that -- you know who 19 Vince George is? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And no one told you that Vince 22 George had come by the night before -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: -- in the early morning hours trying 25 to serve some papers?
1271 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. Now, just so that I 3 understand this incident with the black TransAm, Judas 4 George is driving? 5 A: He's got a blue -- or had a blue 6 TransAm. 7 Q: Blue TransAm; right? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: He's driving it? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: You are in the passenger, front 12 passenger seat? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: There are two (2) women? 15 A: I don't -- 16 Q: First Nations' people in the back of 17 the car? 18 A: I don't recall any women being in -- 19 being in the back of the car. 20 Q: You don't recall that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: They could have been? 23 A: I'm pretty sure we were by 24 ourselves. 25 Q: Okay. And, as I understand what you
1281 say happened, you heard, when you were down on the 2 beach, that an OPP car -- cruiser, was on Matheson 3 Drive? 4 A: Sitting on the end of Matheson 5 Drive, yeah. 6 Q: Okay. And you and Judas George went 7 in the blue TransAm, to, in effect, get them off of 8 Matheson Drive? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And this is before any 11 attempts were being made to take over Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And you weren't aware, according to 15 what you're telling us, of any decision on September the 16 4th, to take over Ipperwash Provincial Park? 17 A: I wasn't aware. 18 Q: Okay. And what you are saying, you, 19 and I'm going to suggest even Judas is saying to the -- 20 to the two (2) OPP officers that are in the cruiser on 21 Matheson Drive, is that they have to get off that 22 roadway because it is First Nations' land? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And then other police cruisers 25 arrive on the scene?
1291 A: I think so, yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And other First Nations 3 people arrive on the scene? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Others -- others who were down at 6 the beach with you, most likely? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And was everybody who was down at 9 the beach, were they all drinking beer? 10 A: Some were and some weren't. 11 Q: Okay. And approximately how many 12 First Nations people would there have been down on the 13 beach area at the end of Matheson Drive? 14 A: Well, at what time or what -- what 15 do you mean? 16 Q: Just before you and Judas George get 17 into the blue TransAm and go and confront the OPP 18 cruisers and the officers. 19 A: There could have been about fifteen 20 (15) of us. 21 Q: Okay. And do most of those people 22 come up while this verbal confrontation is occurring 23 between you and Judas George and the OPP -- the two (2) 24 OPP officers? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me,
1301 Mr. Scullion has got some objection. 2 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Just very quickly, 3 it's Roderick George -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 5 you have to speak into the mic, I can't hear you, I'm 6 sorry. 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Just, we've -- 8 we've been referring to somebody by the name of Judas 9 George. It's Roderick George, his nickname is Judas. I 10 just wanted to clarify that. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Roderick, 12 Judas -- 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- George. 15 Same person. 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I -- I -- I've just 17 -- I heard -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MR PETER WEST: -- Mr. Worme referred, 20 so I -- I'll refer to him as Roderick. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's the 22 same person. 23 MR. PETER WEST: It's the same person, as 24 I understand it. 25
1311 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER WEST: 2 Q: Do you remember, my question to you, 3 sir, was whether most of those fifteen (15) First 4 Nations people came up from the beach area and joined 5 you and Roderick -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- at the blue TransAm. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And as I understand it, the 10 OPP officers, the original two (2) officers in the 11 cruiser that was sitting there, and the other cruisers 12 who came while this was all going on, they all left? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. Now is it also fair to say, 15 sir, that you may not recall everything that was said by 16 yourself to those officers? 17 A: I -- I would remember some stuff, 18 yeah. 19 Q: Okay, but not everything? Because as 20 you've told us you had consumed quite a bit of beer. 21 A: I wasn't -- I wasn't -- I wasn't that 22 -- so I wouldn't forget everything. 23 Q: I understand, but you've also told us 24 several times in your evidence that you have forgotten a 25 lot of the things that happened back in --
1321 A: Yeah. 2 Q: - 1993, '94 and '95, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. So, all I'm putting to 5 you and I'm not trying to trick you or anything, but all 6 I'm putting to you is that you may not remember 7 everything that you said to the police when you 8 confronted them to get off Matheson Drive because it was 9 First Nations land. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. Now, you -- were you aware 12 that trees, after your verbal confrontation with the 13 police officers on Matheson Drive -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- which we have -- from what I've 16 had disclosed to me as happening around 4:07 in the 17 afternoon of September the 4th, some time around 5:50, 18 certain trees were cut down. 19 A: I heard about it. 20 Q: You heard about that? And did you 21 ultimately see trees across Matheson Drive preventing 22 access? 23 A: Next day, yeah. 24 Q: Next day? Okay. I -- I take it, 25 then what you're saying is that after this verbal
1331 confrontation at 4:07 -- lasted what? Ten (10) -- 2 fifteen (15) minutes, max? 3 A: Somewhere around there, yeah. 4 Q: Okay, you went back to the barracks. 5 Is that -- is that your evidence? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. And you don't know what 8 was done up at the Ipperwash Provincial Park -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- after you went back to the 11 barracks? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. But you did see the trees and 14 you heard about the trees being cut down -- 15 A: The next day. 16 Q: -- the next day and you knew it had 17 been done the day before? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And you also told me that you 20 knew the day before that the lock at the gate of the 21 Ipperwash Provincial Park had been broken or cut so that 22 it was no longer on? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And I'm going to suggest you found 25 out the next day when, I think it's Robert Isaac, who
1341 comes and speaks to you? 2 A: No, I was laying on the couch and 3 the TV was on and it was on the news. 4 Q: I understand, but then shortly after 5 that Robert Isaac comes to you, doesn't he, and asks you 6 to -- don't you go with him in the "OPP Who" car? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: All right. And you go up there 9 because -- because, as I understand it, Robert Isaac's 10 telling you they need more people in the Park. 11 A: No, that was on the 6th. 12 Q: That's on the 6th? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Now were you aware that after the 15 lock is cut around 7:30 that somewhere around eight (8) 16 to ten (10) vehicles drove from -- with First Nations 17 persons inside them, drove into the Park? Did you 18 become aware of that the next day? 19 A: I can't remember what part of the 20 day I found out but through the day I talked to some of 21 the guys and they told me. 22 Q: Okay. Were you aware that the -- 23 when all of this was going on in the Park that there 24 were still day visitors within the Park? 25 A: I wasn't there.
1351 Q: I understand. Nobody said that to 2 you? Nobody told you about that the next day? 3 A: No, no. 4 Q: And that the police were -- the OPP 5 were in the Park with MNR employees escorting those 6 people out of the Park after the First Nations people 7 cut the chain and everyone came in? 8 A: I can't remember if anybody told me 9 or not. 10 Q: You became aware of the fire, the 11 sacred fire that was built beside the Park store? 12 A: Yeah. Yeah. 13 Q: And I think you indicated you put 14 some tobacco into that -- into that fire? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Were you -- did you find out about 17 Roderick George taking his walking stick and smashing 18 the back window of one of the police cruisers on 19 September the 4th in the evening? 20 A: I heard something of it. 21 Q: And similarly what had been said to 22 the OPP by you and Roderick George on September 4th in 23 the afternoon, the OPP are told again that they're 24 trespassing and they should leave. Did you hear that 25 the next day?
1361 A: No. 2 Q: In conjunction with the smashing of 3 the window? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Didn't hear that? Okay. You were 6 aware, though, that on September 4th in the evening, 7 again you would have found this out on September the 8 5th, that the police and MNR employees all left the Park 9 so that there were only First Nations people within the 10 boundaries of the Park? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: What time do you think, is it 13 morning or afternoon that you go up to Ipperwash 14 Provincial Park from the barracks with Robert Isaac? 15 A: It was in the morning. 16 Q: In the morning? And throughout then 17 the morning and the afternoon, there are people coming 18 to the Park? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And these would be people both 21 supporters who are not part of the Stoney Point group? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And -- and more of the Stoney 24 Pointers, if I can call them that, who are living down 25 in the barracks or in the rifle range areas, right?
1371 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And as I understand it, there's a 3 road that travels, I think you've referred to it, 4 parallel -- I think it's called the Military Road that 5 runs parallel to the Army Camp Road with a fence in 6 between? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And that would be the road that the 9 cars would be travelling from the barracks and the rifle 10 range area up into Ipperwash Provincial Park? 11 A: No. That's one way. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: It's the short way from the barracks 14 to the Park. 15 Q: What's another way the people were 16 coming in? 17 A: You could go all the way around. 18 Q: So take Highway 21 and go around 19 and -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- and come in the back way? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: So you ultimately would get over 24 onto Matheson Drive? 25 A: Yeah.
1381 Q: Okay. And then you'd come into the 2 Park that way? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. I understand what you're 5 saying. And people were doing that as well? 6 A: Yeah. Well, I think the day 7 visitors were the -- people that were coming to support 8 us were coming right down the road parallel to Army Camp 9 Road. 10 Q: Yes, these would be the people who 11 be coming from the barracks on that military side road? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: I understand. And when you get to 14 the top of the army camp, isn't there a fence that runs 15 along the north side of that? Where that military side 16 road goes? Before it hits Matheson? 17 A: Yeah, there's a fence there. 18 Q: All right. And was a portion of 19 that fence knocked down to allow vehicles to come into 20 the Park across Matheson -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- Drive and come into the Park? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Through the gate that the lock has 25 been taken off, right?
1391 A: No. Well, there's on Matheson Drive 2 down where they cut the -- where they cut the chain, 3 there's a -- the military road that still runs parallel 4 with Matheson Drive. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: And -- and that's -- that -- that was 7 one (1) way of getting -- getting down to the beach and 8 into the Park. 9 Q: I understand -- within the army camp? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: All right. But in terms of -- 12 there's now trees across Matheson Drive, right? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: At different places? So, one (1) -- 15 I think you've already told me -- the fence that's at 16 the north end of the army camp -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- portions of that were knocked 19 down, cut down, however, to allow vehicles to drive 20 straight across Matheson Drive and come into the Park? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And do you know of a dump 23 truck? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right. And -- and that's a -- a
1401 truck that was in the barracks? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And do you remember that travelling 4 back and forth, both on the 5th of September and the 6th 5 of September between the barracks and the Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: You -- you -- do you agree with me? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. And you remember the bus 11 going back and forth because it would be bringing people 12 up into the Park and bringing people back -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- into the barracks? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. Is that, perhaps, one (1) of 17 the ways you got back to the barracks? 18 A: No -- 19 Q: You -- 20 A: -- I never. 21 Q: It was Robert Isaac that always drove 22 you? 23 A: Well, I'd catch a ride with different 24 guys, who was ever going up that way or going down. 25 Q: All right. Now, on the evening of
1411 September the 5th, you were involved in this putting the 2 picnic tables, as you've told me, out into the sandy 3 parking lot? 4 A: Yeah, well -- 5 Q: And did you -- 6 A: -- that was -- that was when the -- 7 the police started ramming the picnic tables. 8 Q: I understand. This is when you say 9 that the -- one (1) police cruiser came, sort of, 10 roaring into that area, slammed on his brakes and slid 11 into the picnic table. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And this is before they were set up, 14 according to you, in a circle? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And, do you remember more police 17 cruisers coming into the sandy parking lot area and the 18 First Nations people going back into the Park? 19 A: I think there was a -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 21 Scullion...? 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 23 Commissioner. I'm sure this will come up more than once 24 along the way, but my objection is more of an 25 observation that this witness has continuously referred
1421 to what has come up as the Park as the fence line, and 2 there's still some dispute, as you've heard throughout 3 the days of the Inquiry, as to the ownership of the 4 parking lot and whether or not the parking lot is part 5 of the Park. 6 And I just note that he's -- the question 7 refers to the parking lot and then the First Nations 8 members getting back into the Park and I just suggest 9 it's a little unfair in terms of his evidence so far. 10 He's continuously referred to it as a 11 fence line and not a boundary of what's being looked at 12 as the Provincial Park and it -- so I'd raise it as more 13 of an observation at this point. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 15 sure how we can deal with that. 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's one (1) of the 17 issues that I think -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- we're going to 20 have to deal with along the way. I'm not objecting to 21 the terminology used, I'm raising it as an observation 22 at this point. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's leave 24 it at that. I think it might be helpful if we have the 25 map up and you ask him to describe things --
1431 MR. PETER WEST: Certainly. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- for you. 3 I know you're trying to use language to help him, but I 4 think it might be better if we had the map up when 5 you -- 6 MR PETER WEST: No difficulty. He's got 7 the -- he actually has -- I don't know what that exhibit 8 number is now -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was 10 thinking of -- 11 MR. PETER WEST: P-71 is the -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a map 13 of the -- 14 MR. PETER WEST: It -- it actually shows 15 the sandy parking lot. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-72. 17 MR. PETER WEST: P-72 is -- is right 18 beside the witness. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER WEST: 22 Q: You see that -- you see the P-72 -- 23 Exhibit P-72, Mr. George, which is to your left where 24 you drew the bus and Mr. Warren George's car and earlier 25 on the 6th of September, you've drawn Gerald George's
1441 car and you've drawn where Dudley George was on the 2 ground when you first saw him, right? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And that sandy parking lot -- I guess 5 all I'm putting to you and I put to you before is, you 6 believed, as did the other First Nations people who were 7 in the Park that that sandy parking lot was First 8 Nations land? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And there was a fence separating that 11 sandy parking lot from Ipperwash Provincial Park? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And what I've put to you now is, on 14 September the 5th in the evening, there's a 15 confrontation between some of the First Nations people 16 who have brought picnic tables out to demonstrate your 17 ownership of that sandy parking lot as First Nations' 18 land, right? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And the police come and there's a 21 confrontation and what I put to you is that there are 22 more police cruisers that come and that ultimately the 23 First Nations people go back over the fence, back into 24 what is known as Ipperwash Provincial Park and the 25 police cruisers leave? On September 5th, that's what
1451 happens? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: All right. And that's all I'm 4 putting to you. And then as I understand it, you became 5 aware, you weren't there but you became aware when you 6 came back on the morning of September 6th, and again 7 it's Robert Isaacs who's picking you up back at the 8 barracks, correct? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And he's telling you we need more 11 people, more bodies in Ipperwash Provincial Park, right? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And so you go with him back to 14 Ipperwash Provincial Park on September the 6th in the 15 morning from the barracks? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And you find out when you get there 18 that all of these picnic tables had been removed by the 19 police? 20 A: I -- I heard -- I heard that the 21 picnic tables were removed but I didn't know that they 22 were set up in a circle. 23 Q: I understand. You -- you weren't 24 aware of that -- 25 A: I wasn't there.
1461 Q: -- you weren't -- but you -- you -- 2 if I had suggested to you that you heard something about 3 a fire being lit out in the sandy parking lot, were you 4 aware of that? At some point? 5 A: I can't remember right. It's been 6 nine (9) years. 7 Q: I understand. What you are aware of 8 is that the picnic tables were no longer there on the 9 morning of September the 6th? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And you were told that it was the 12 OPP who had removed them? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. And that happened, I'm going 15 to suggest to you, before you got to the Park when 16 Robert Isaacs drove you? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And you told us as well that 19 you became aware on the evening of September the 6th 20 that the women and children were being driven back to 21 the army camp from the Park -- back to the barracks area 22 from the Park? You told us that in your evidence in- 23 chief with Mr. Worme. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And did you also hear when
1471 you got to the Park on the morning of September the 6th, 2 that when the police came to remove those tables from 3 the parking lot, there had been some First Nations, a 4 couple of First Nations people still there but when the 5 police showed up they again went back beyond the fence 6 line back into Ipperwash Provincial Park? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. Now you were aware -- because 9 -- you were at the Park property from the time you get 10 there on September the 6th, when Robert Isaacs drives 11 you, until the incident in the evening, the late evening 12 of September the 6th or the early morning hours of 13 September the 7th, right? 14 A: I come and I go. 15 Q: Are you going back and forth? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. Were you aware that 18 Cecil Bernard George who as I understand it, Pelly Point 19 Band Councillor, came to the Park at some point on 20 September the 6th, probably in the afternoon? 21 A: I never seen him in the afternoon. 22 Q: All right. And that he came and he 23 had two-way radios and a scanner, a police scanner? 24 Were you aware of that? 25 A: Yeah. I heard it later on in the
1481 evening when it was dark. 2 Q: And did you -- did you hear that 3 Cecil Bernard George and others who had been listening 4 to the police scanner, had determined that the police, 5 the OPP were massing? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. And would it be fair to 8 say that withing the Park and the First Nations people 9 who were there, there is a feeling starting in the 10 evening hours of -- early evening hours of September the 11 6th that the OPP are planning to come in and remove you 12 from the Park? This is what people believed. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And is it fair to say that people 15 began to arm themselves with rocks and with sticks and 16 with baseball bats and things of that nature? You saw 17 that? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. Did you yourself arm yourself 20 with a walking stick or with some rocks or things of 21 that nature? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. And I think as you've 24 told us later on in the evening when the confrontation 25 happens, you asked somebody for what you thought was an
1491 axe handle? 2 A: A pick axe. 3 Q: Pick axe, right, okay. But it's -- 4 I'm just talking about the wood, I'm not saying there 5 was -- 6 A: Yeah, just -- 7 Q: -- metal on the end of it of any 8 shape. You're just saying it's -- 9 A: It was -- it was just a handle. 10 Q: I understand, just the stick; right? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: I understand. And were you -- were 13 you aware maybe you were one (1) of these people that, 14 around six-thirty, seven o'clock in the evening, on 15 September the 6, were you one (1) of, or did you hear 16 about -- I'll ask you first if you were one -- were you 17 one (1) of eight (8) to ten (10) First Nations people 18 who were out in the sandy parking lot area, of which 19 four (4) or five (5) would have been armed with baseball 20 bats or sticks? 21 A: What was that question again? 22 Q: Okay. Were you one (1) of eight (8) 23 to ten (10) First Nations people, around six-thirty, 24 seven o'clock in the evening of September the 6, who 25 were in the sandy parking lot area, just standing
1501 talking with each other, four (4) or five (5) who had in 2 their hands, bats or sticks? Not everybody, but about 3 half? 4 A: I don't recall. 5 Q: Okay. Certainly within the Park 6 itself, because of what was being overheard on this 7 police scanner and perhaps the radios, the two-way 8 radios that Cecil Bernard George brought, people began 9 to walk around carrying baseball bats and walking sticks 10 and pick-axe handles and things of that nature? 11 A: I don't know if those radios even 12 worked. 13 Q: Well the scanner, we've heard, 14 worked. We've heard that certain First Nations people 15 would gather around the scanner and listen to the police 16 communications, and it caused concern within the First 17 Nations people who were in the Park. We've heard that 18 evidence here. 19 A: Well, I -- I don't remember 20 listening to the scanner, but I remember listening to 21 the radio. 22 Q: This would be this AM radio you've 23 told us about? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: I understand. But I think you told
1511 us that was something about an injunction? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: You certainly, I think, indicated in 4 your evidence-in-chief, that you became aware in the 5 evening hours of September the 6th, that there are more 6 police officers arriving -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- in the area of Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And either through your observations 12 or through what people are telling you they're 13 overhearing on the scanner, or what you may have heard 14 yourself on the scanner, First Nations people within the 15 Park -- I think you've already told me this -- believe 16 that the police are up to something? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And that they're likely going to 19 come in and oust you from the Park? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And all I'm suggesting to you now is 22 that you observed First Nations people, not everyone, 23 but some, taking baseball bats and sticks, amassing 24 rocks, to be prepared in the event that something like 25 that happened?
1521 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 3 you, sir, that -- I'm going to suggest to you that the 4 incident involving Gerald George, you knew him as a 5 Councillor with the Kettle Point Band? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And you knew about this letter to 8 the editor that he had written to the Forest Newspaper, 9 the Forest Standard? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And you were upset about that -- 12 that letter that he wrote? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Upset because he basically was 15 saying he didn't agree with the actions of the First 16 Nation people and the occupiers who had taken over the 17 barracks of the Army Camp; right? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And he made some comments in his 20 letter about how he thought that that -- I may be using 21 the wrong word -- but insulting to the ancestors of 22 Stoney Point; he said that in his letter? 23 A: Well, that too and -- and plus the 24 occupiers. 25 Q: Yes. Yes, he -- he made -- he made
1531 comments that the occupiers were not living up to their 2 memory of the ancestor -- of the ancestors of Stoney 3 Point? 4 A: I don't quite get your -- 5 Q: Words to that effect? 6 A: -- I don't quite get your question. 7 Q: Okay. He said derogatory things 8 about the occupiers, that upset you? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And he also said that he had 11 ancestors from Stoney Point and he didn't think what the 12 occupiers had done was right? 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: Okay. You don't remember the 15 letter? 16 A: Well, yeah, I -- I remember the 17 letter. 18 Q: Okay. The letter made you angry? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And that was one of the reasons why, 21 when Gerald George pulled up and asked what you guys 22 were up to -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- you got angry with him? 25 A: Well, yeah.
1541 Q: Because of the letter that you'd 2 read in the Forest Standard; right? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And you told the SIU that you hit 5 him once? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And he didn't strike you? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And after you hit him, he got back 10 into his car? 11 A: He never got out of his car. 12 Q: So you hit him when he was in his 13 car? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. Through the open window? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. And after you hit him, he 18 drove away? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And that's when you threw this rock 21 at his car? 22 A: I threw the rock after -- after he 23 told me I was going to get it. 24 Q: You were going to get it? 25 A: Yeah.
1551 Q: And caused a dent in his car? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 4 you that this is the first incident that you had heard 5 of -- you were actually involved in it, but -- the first 6 incident since the beginning of the occupation in 1993, 7 right up until the -- September the 6th, 1995, that 8 involved a confrontation between an occupier and someone 9 who was not a police officer? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: You agree? 12 A: What -- what do you mean? 13 Q: This was the first incident since 14 the beginning of the occupation, from May of 1993? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 16 Mr. West. Mr. Henderson has something -- 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes, 18 Commissioner. We -- we've heard this -- this theory or 19 slogan coming forward a couple of times. You've already 20 heard evidence, sir, of people who were not members of 21 the OPP coming in by the rifle ranges and assaulting 22 occupiers of the camp. 23 There are other non-OPP people involved 24 with the military who had some confrontation with the 25 occupiers of the camp. The witness, of course, is quite
1561 rightly trying to assist the Commission and -- and 2 answer to counsel. He may not have heard some of that 3 evidence. 4 But I think the slogan should be put to 5 rest because there were other confrontations, and this 6 was not the first one (1). 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Between 8 occupiers and people who were not members of the OPP? 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Exactly. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 11 your question is a bit general. I think there have been 12 some -- 13 MR. PETER WEST: I can -- I can make it 14 more particular. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER WEST: 18 Q: Because I'm going to suggest to you, 19 sir, this was the first time where one of the occupiers 20 instigated something with someone who was not an OPP 21 officer. You instigated an incident with Gerald 22 George -- 23 A: I -- 24 Q: -- you punched him -- 25 A: -- I don't --
1571 Q: -- and you threw a rock at him. 2 A: Yeah. I don't -- I don't know why 3 he came there in the first place, after what -- 4 Q: He wrote. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: I understand. But the fact of the 7 matter is, this is, I'm going to suggest to you, the 8 first incident where one of the occupiers is engaged in 9 a confrontation and an altercation where there's an 10 assault and there's damage caused to a vehicle -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- by one of the occupiers, which is 13 you. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And that, I'm going to 16 suggest to you, was something new, because it hadn't 17 happened before; right? 18 A: I -- I didn't know -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 20 Worme...? 21 MR. DONALD WORNE: Pardon me, Mr. West. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 23 means something initiated by an occupier. 24 MR. PETER WEST: That's correct. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Well, I -- I hesitate
1581 to rise and interrupt My Friend, Mr. Commissioner, but I 2 think it's also clear that this witness had testified 3 that he wasn't there for the majority of the time. He 4 came late throughout this entire event, and he wasn't 5 there. And it's -- it's pretty difficult for him to 6 say. 7 He can say what's within his scope of 8 knowledge. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: But beyond that, to 11 say that, as a carte blanche, that there was no other 12 incidents, I'm not sure that that's -- that's -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's not to 14 make a general sweeping statement, obviously -- 15 MR. PETER WEST: I'm only asking him 16 from his knowledge, Mr. Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Obviously, 18 but it's not clear to him. 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If I -- if I may, 20 Mr. George is also taking issue with term -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 22 Mr. Scullion, you have to speak right in; I can't hear 23 you. 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Mr. George is also 25 taking issue with the term "instigate". And I think he
1591 was starting to answer that -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- when the 4 objections began. I'd just ask -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- that he'd be 7 allowed to follow up with his comments in that regard. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER WEST: 10 Q: Do you have more that you want to 11 say, Mr. George? 12 A: I don't really what -- really 13 remember what I was going to say until I was 14 interrupted. 15 Q: Well, I didn't interrupt you, sir. 16 A: I forgot what I was going to say. 17 Q: Because I'm -- I'm trying to give 18 you all the opportunity to say whatever you want to say. 19 And sir, you -- were you aware of other 20 fires that were set within Ipperwash Provincial Park 21 other than the fire that was beside the Park store? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Were you aware of a fire that was 24 set on the -- on the beach at Ipperwash Provincial Park, 25 just north of the Park?
1601 A: No. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 3 have to be specific regarding times that, were you aware 4 of a fire on the beach? 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER WEST: 7 Q: Between September the 4th and 8 September the 6th after the occupation of the Park by 9 First Nations people? 10 A: I don't remember no fire on the 11 beach. 12 Q: Do you remember other fires being 13 set in -- within the Park itself -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- other than the one beside the 16 store? 17 A: What was that question again? 18 Q: Do you remember any other fires 19 being set between the 4th of September and the 6th of 20 September within the Provincial Park other than the one 21 by the Park store? 22 A: Well what kind of fires are -- you 23 mean bonfires or? 24 Q: I'm just asking about fires? 25 A: Oh yeah. I set the store on fire
1611 after they shot Dudley. 2 Q: I'm not talking about after -- I'm 3 not talking about into September 7th. I'm talking about 4 up until September the 6th. Up until the confrontation 5 with the OPP? 6 A: I don't remember no fires. 7 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, if I just 8 have your indulgence for a moment, please. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER WEST: 13 Q: Just so that I understand it 14 completely, sir, you -- you were really not part of any 15 of the discussions between First Nations people, the 16 occupiers in terms of decision making as to initially 17 occupy the rifle range area in May of 1993? You're not 18 part of that discussion or that decision? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And you're not part of the 21 discussion or decision in July 29th of 1995 to move into 22 the barracks area, the built-up area of the army camp? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And you're not part of any 25 discussion or decision to move into Ipperwash Provincial
1621 Park on September the 4th, is that right? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Now this is not -- I don't mean to 4 embarrass you. Do you remember giving your statement to 5 the SIU? 6 A: That was about -- about eight (8) 7 years ago and I can't remember everything that I said. 8 Q: I understand. And I'm referring -- 9 did anybody ever give you an opportunity to read over 10 those statements before you testified here today? 11 A: Yeah. I got one (1) at home. 12 Q: Okay. And would that one (1) that 13 you've got is the October 14th, 1995 statement? Does 14 that sound about right? 15 A: I think so. 16 Q: About a month after all of this 17 happened you spoke with the SIU? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: You spoke to a Mr. Wilson? 20 A: I can't remember his name. I 21 remember the Kennedy guy. 22 Q: You remember, sorry? 23 A: I remember the Kennedy guy. 24 Q: Yes, Kennedy was part of that 25 interview as well?
1631 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. Again, not to -- your memory 3 was certainly a lot better back on October of 1995 than 4 it is today, is that fair? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. And page 23 of that statement 7 you were asked and Mr. Worme actually asked this 8 question as well and he may have been asking because of 9 what's in the statement. But he asked if you observed 10 Gerald George stop and speak to anyone or do anything 11 after he drove away and you threw the rock at his car. 12 And I'm going to suggest to you that in 13 your statement to the police at page 23, you were asked 14 the same question by Mr. Wilson who was the lead 15 investigator of your interview and your answer was that 16 he stopped and talked to an OPP officer. 17 A: Oh yeah. I was told that, I never 18 seen him. 19 Q: Okay. So this is something you were 20 told? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. And you didn't see it? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. But you were told that he did 25 stop and talk to an OPP officer?
1641 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And it was -- I take it after that - 3 - after all of these incidents that you were ultimately 4 charged with a mischief involving Gerald George's car? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. You also indicated in 7 your evidence, sir, that at -- I'll to try to see if I 8 can find the day Mr. Worme was talking to you about, I 9 think it's September the 5th of 2000 -- of 1995 when you 10 went up to the Park and you talked about -- this was in 11 your evidence -- about one (1) of your rides around the 12 perimeter of the Army Camp. Do you remember -- do you 13 remember giving that evidence? 14 A: We went around along the perimeter 15 lots of times, which one are you referring to? 16 Q: Well, when Mr. Worme was questioning, 17 you were talking about September the 5th? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And this would be after the 20 occupation of the -- the Park on September the 4th 21 through to September the 6th, right? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And so did you go for rides around 24 the perimeter on September the 5th, more than one (1)? 25 A: Yeah.
1651 Q: Okay. And how many times would you 2 have gone around the perimeter on September the 5th? 3 A: I don't know, I never counted them. 4 Q: Okay. And did you do the same thing 5 on the 6th as well? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. And -- and why were you 8 doing that? 9 A: It -- 10 Q: What was the purpose of going for a 11 ride? 12 A: To see what's going on. 13 Q: To see what's going on? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And that would be in respect of -- 16 see what's going on with the OPP? 17 A: Yeah, go up the road, see what's 18 going on up at the barracks, and -- 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: -- see what's going on all around -- 21 around the perimeter. 22 Q: This would be of the Army Camp, 23 right? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And then you would come back
1661 and report what you had observed? 2 A: No, everybody -- everybody was, you 3 know, doing the same thing. 4 Q: Everybody else was doing the same 5 thing? 6 A: Yeah, well, a lot -- a lot of them 7 were. 8 Q: Okay. And who was driving you, or 9 were you driving yourself? 10 A: I remember I went a few times with -- 11 with Robert. 12 Q: This would be Robert Isaacs? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Yes. Did you go with Roderick George 15 on any occasions? 16 A: I don't think so. 17 Q: Okay. Anyone else that you went with 18 other than Robert Isaacs? 19 A: I can't remember. 20 Q: Okay. There may have been others, 21 then, is what you're saying? 22 A: Yeah. There may have been, yeah. 23 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. George. Those 24 are all my questions. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
1671 very much, Mr. West. Yes, Ms. Jones...? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there 6 anything we can do to make this a little more -- a 7 little easier for Ms. Jones to -- 8 MS. KAREN JONES: It's -- it's fine, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not a 11 very satisfactory arrangement there, is it? 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, we're all making 13 due -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see Sam 15 is making a little room for you -- Sam George is making 16 a little room on his side of the table. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. Thank you 18 very much. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 20 shouldn't have to bend down to the floor to pick up a 21 volume. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: Mr. George, my name's Karen Jones and 25 I'm one (1) of the lawyer who represents the Ontario
1681 Provincial Police Association and I wanted to just get a 2 little bit better sense from you during the period 3 between 1993 and 1995. You've told us that you went to 4 the Army Camp fairly often? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Can you give us some idea about, 7 would you have gone, sort of once a week, or more 8 frequently or less frequently? 9 A: It was more than once a week. 10 Q: More than once a week? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Yeah. And when you went there, who 13 did you visit, generally? 14 A: Dudley. 15 Q: Dudley? Were you in -- in Dudley's 16 trailer? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Yeah? Were you in Dudley's trailer 19 fairly often, then? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. And you had told us a little 22 bit about when you moved into the built-up area into the 23 barracks area, in August of 1995, and I'm wondering if 24 you can help us understand, where did you live when you 25 moved into the barracks?
1691 A: Well, first I moved into the drill 2 hall, -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- and I scouted around for another 5 place and I found another place and moved into there. 6 Q: Okay. Can you help us understand 7 where that other place is? And I don't know if I can be 8 some assistance to you, but we have a diagram that we've 9 referred to in the past, and it's Document Number 10 2002917 and that has a diagram of the built-up area. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: I wonder if we can show that to you, 13 if you can help us understand where you moved into? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And it's also 15 Exhibit P-41. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: First of all, you told us that when 21 you first got there, you moved into the drill hall. Can 22 you show us with your pointer, on that map, where the 23 drill hall is? 24 A: Right there. 25 Q: Okay. And when you moved into the
1701 drill hall, were there other people living in the drill 2 hall as well? 3 A: Mark Bressette. 4 Q: Pardon me? 5 A: Mark Bressette. 6 Q: Okay. Was there anyone else living 7 there? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. And then when you moved out 10 and into your own area, where did you move to? I'm 11 wondering if it helps to look at the map? 12 A: I don't see what that has to do with 13 anything where I live now. 14 Q: Oh, I was asking about in August of 15 1995. Can you help us understand where you moved to? 16 A: In August, I -- I'm moving into the 17 drill hall. 18 Q: Right. And then you said you moved 19 into -- 20 A: It was a -- it was about a month, 21 two (2) months later I moved. 22 Q: Into your own area? 23 A: And into the house I'm at now. Or 24 into the building I'm at. 25 Q: And we've been told that a number of
1711 other people were living in the built-up area in August 2 of 1995, in the barracks area. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Can you recall who was living there 5 at the time? 6 A: A lot of people were living out 7 there. 8 Q: Yes. Do you recall particularly who 9 was living there in August of 1995? Maybe I can help 10 you out a little bit. Was Robert Isaac living in the 11 barrack area, -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- that summer? Yeah. Was Sam 14 Isaac -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- living in the area? Was Ed 17 Isaac? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Was Buck Doxtator? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Was Gabriel Doxtator? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Was Russ Jewel? 24 A: Russ Jewel -- I -- I can't remember. 25 But I know his brother, Les, was.
1721 Q: Okay. And was Dutch French -- 2 Dutchie French living there? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. And Al George? 5 A: Al George? I don't think he was 6 living there. 7 Q: Okay. And can you help us, I -- 8 I've read some things that talk about a Larry French; do 9 you know if that's Dutch's first name? 10 A: I think that's Dutchie, yeah. 11 Q: Yes. Okay. Can you recall whether 12 any of those people that I've referred to, such as Sam 13 Isaac, Ed Isaac, Buck Doxtator or Russ Jewel, whether 14 they visited or not, during August of 1995? 15 A: I don't really remember because I 16 was still working on the school, eh, and I was gone all 17 day and I can't remember seeing -- seeing Big Ed or Sam 18 around. 19 Q: Okay, and by Big Ed, you mean Ed 20 Isaac? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And I think you've told us, 23 then, in that month -- in August of 1995 -- you were 24 working? 25 A: Yeah.
1731 Q: So, were -- you were gone during the 2 day? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And you'd come back in the evening? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And is that when you say Dudley was 7 looking after your son? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Yeah? Okay. And were you aware at 10 all when you were living in the army camp in August or 11 early September of 1995, whether or not any of the 12 people who were living in the built-up area or in the 13 base were hunting during that period? 14 A: I don't think anybody was hunting in 15 the summertime. 16 Q: Okay. Do you know? 17 A: I'm sure that -- that they weren't -- 18 they weren't hunting. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall during the 20 summer that there was a barbecue of venison? We've 21 heard some evidence previously -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- by a witness that he was hunting - 24 A: I don't -- 25 Q: -- and shot deer for the barbecue for
1741 the feast. 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: Okay. And you've told us a little 4 bit about when you lived in the built-up area -- I think 5 you told us that there were no locks? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And would you have had access 8 to all of the buildings in the built-up area? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Did you visit throughout the other 11 buildings during the course of August of 1995? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. And during the course of time 14 that you were in the built-up area and you were going 15 around and were in the buildings, did you see any guns 16 in the built-up area? 17 A: No. No. 18 Q: Okay. And I want to take you now to 19 September the 5th, which is the day after the Park was 20 occupied? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And I think that you've told us that 23 you were in the Park on September the 5th? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And during the time that you
1751 were in the Park on September the 5th, we've heard some 2 evidence earlier about the occupiers manning observation 3 posts. 4 Was that something that you did on 5 September the 5th? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No? Did you know that that was being 8 done? 9 A: Well, they -- they guys were watching 10 down the road and that, yeah, I know -- I knew that they 11 were watching out for -- for any -- anybody to come down 12 the road or try to sneak up or anything. 13 Q: Right. And we've also heard about 14 patrols being set up and I take it again, that would be 15 to watch and make sure that no one came into the Park? 16 A: Patrols, yeah, well, they were just 17 something that guys would do. You know, there was no -- 18 no mandatory orders or anything organized like that, it 19 was just something that the guys would do. 20 Q: Okay. And during the time that you 21 were in the Park on September 5, did you see any 22 fireworks go off or hear any firecrackers? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. And I just wanted to ask you a 25 few more questions about the picnic table incident that
1761 took place on the evening of September the five (5) -- 2 the 5th. And I - I wasn't exactly clear about what you 3 recalled about that incident, so I just wanted to ask 4 you a few more questions. 5 I take it that there were a number of 6 people that were in the Park at the time? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And did you have discussions with 9 other people about taking the picnic tables out into the 10 sandy parking area? 11 A: No. All -- somebody said, Let's go 12 build a fire out in the parking lot, so -- so away we 13 went. 14 Q: Someone said, Let's build a fire? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And did a fire get built in 17 the parking lot? 18 A: No. Not when I was there. 19 Q: Okay. And can you tell us about 20 carrying the picnic tables out to the sandy parking lot? 21 I understand from -- first of all, can you tell us how 22 many picnic tables were carried out? 23 A: I know there was two (2) when I was 24 there, because I had a hold of one (1) and I think it 25 was Dave -- Dave and somebody else behind us, they had a
1771 hold of one (1). 2 Q: Okay. And I take it from what you 3 said that you say Nick Cottrelle was helping you carry a 4 picnic table out? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. And you took the picnic table 7 out to the sandy parking lot? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Yeah. And I just wanted to make 10 sure I understood what you say happened after that. Is 11 it your evidence that as you were carrying the picnic 12 table out, a police car came driving in? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. Now, I understand that the 15 police officers involved will say, or they've given 16 statements, and we have a copy of those statements, that 17 when the police cruiser drove by the sandy parking lot 18 area, there were a number of picnic tables already out 19 in the sandy parking lot? 20 A: I don't remember. 21 Q: You don't remember? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. And I take it when the police 24 cruiser hit the picnic table, that there was nobody 25 sitting on it at the time; is that --
1781 A: No. We -- because we were carrying 2 it. 3 Q: You say it happened while you were 4 carrying it? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. Help me understand this. 7 Were you at the front of the picnic table or the back of 8 the picnic table? 9 A: I don't know how you tell the front 10 from the back. 11 Q: Well, were you leading the way into 12 the sandy parking lot -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- or -- or were you following 15 behind Nick Cottrelle? 16 A: I was -- I was leading the way. 17 Q: Okay. And where did the police 18 cruiser come from? 19 A: It came out on -- out on the road, 20 there. 21 Q: Okay. Did the police cruiser come 22 down Army Camp Road or East Parkway? 23 A: I -- I don't know. I -- I wasn't 24 watching to see which way he came from. All's I know is 25 he came -- came into the parking lot.
1791 Q: Okay. And when the police cruiser 2 came into the parking lot, did it come directly towards 3 you? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: So towards the -- picnic -- the end 6 of the picnic table that you were carrying? 7 A: What was that again? 8 Q: The police cruiser, when it drove 9 towards you, was driving towards the pic -- the end of 10 the picnic table that you were carrying; is that what 11 you're saying? 12 A: Well, the -- I was at one (1) end 13 and Nick was at the other end, and the -- and the 14 benches were -- and that's where he hit, on those 15 benches. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And that -- I got out of the way but 18 Nick, he got hit in the leg or the knee area. 19 Q: Okay. And I think you have told us 20 that once that happened, you started throwing rocks? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And were you in the sandy parking 23 area at the time you started throwing rocks? 24 A: I can't remember if I jumped back 25 over the fence or not, but I remember throwing rocks at
1801 the cops from -- from inside the park. 2 Q: From inside the park? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. And were there other people 5 with you throwing rocks? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. Can you -- do you agree with 8 me that there would have been about twenty (20) people 9 there, throwing rocks at the police? 10 A: Not that much. 11 Q: Okay. How many do you say were 12 there? 13 A: About a dozen. 14 Q: Okay. And I take it that -- we've 15 heard some evidence earlier about the rocks or some 16 rocks breaking windshields of the police cruisers; do 17 you recall that? 18 A: I recall somebody sayings somebody 19 busted a window with a stick, but I -- I don't know 20 about busting windows with rocks. I know we hit the car 21 and I could hear them bouncing off the -- the fenders 22 and that. 23 Q: Okay. And when you were throwing 24 rocks at the cars, were the police by the cars or behind 25 the cars?
1811 A: They were -- they were inside the 2 cars. 3 Q: Okay. Did the police get out of the 4 cars when you were throwing rocks? 5 A: Did they get out of the cars? 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: I don't -- no, I don't think so. 8 Q: Okay. And I take it from what you 9 said that once you started throwing rocks at them, that 10 they drove away? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 14 finished with that incident? 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, I am. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 17 this should be a good time to take a break. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen 20 (15) minutes, thank you very much. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 22 for fifteen (15) minutes. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 3:20 p.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 3:34 p.m.
1821 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 3 resumed. Please be seated. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: Mr. George, you told us that you 10 were back in the Park on September the 6th, is that 11 right? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And I just wanted to make sure I 14 understood, how much time did you spend in the Park on 15 September the 6th, do you recall? 16 A: No. I wasn't timing myself. 17 Q: Okay. Were you there for the better 18 part of the day? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And we've heard some evidence 21 earlier about the occupiers making efforts during that 22 day to gather up weapons that they could defend 23 themselves with. And we heard for example about rocks 24 being gathered, sticks and bats and metal bars being 25 amassed and bricks being taken up from around the store.
1831 Did you see that? 2 A: No. 3 Q: No? Can you help us understand 4 where you spent your time on September the 6th? Were 5 you -- where were you in the Park? 6 A: I was up near the store, along the 7 fence that's separating the sandy park where the -- the 8 driveway down to the beach and along the road and up in 9 the barracks -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- around the perimeter. 12 Q: You were on the move that day? 13 A: A little bit yeah. 14 Q: Now I just wanted to ask you a few 15 more questions about the incident involving Gerald 16 George. I think you had told us that took place in the 17 sandy parking lot outside of the Park? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And when you were in the sandy 20 parking lot, were you with other people? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: I take it there was a group of you? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Do you agree with me that some of 25 those people had bats, or other weapons?
1841 A: I can't remember if they had bats or 2 not. 3 Q: Okay. Can you give us some idea of 4 about how many people you were with? 5 A: There weren't that many. Maybe four 6 (4) or five (5) I think. 7 Q: Okay. And what were you doing in 8 the sandy parking area at that time? 9 A: Looking down the road. 10 Q: Okay. And you've told us you saw 11 Gerald George driving towards you and he stopped his 12 car? 13 A: Yeah. He stopped. We -- I never 14 flagged him over or nothing. 15 Q: Okay. And you were asked some 16 questions by Mr. Worme about your drinking on that day. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And Gerald George gave a statement 19 which for the benefit of counsel is Document Number 100- 20 310. And he had said in that statement that you were 21 drunk at the time. And he was asked how he knew that 22 and he said that he smelled you and there was a strong 23 odour of beer and your speech was slurred. 24 A: I don't remember. 25 Q: Does that help you recall whether or
1851 not you were drinking then? 2 A: I -- I might have had a couple of 3 beers but I never had too much because I was hungover 4 from -- from the 4th. 5 Q: Hungover from the 4th? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And you had been drinking on 8 the 5th as well? 9 A: I think I might have had about two 10 (2) beers and they both got warm before -- before I even 11 got half finished so. 12 Q: Okay. And you told us that you hit 13 Mr. George I take it through the window of his car? 14 A: Well -- well yeah. He was -- had 15 his head out of the window. 16 Q: Okay. And so you hit him in the 17 head? 18 A: Right -- right on the side there. 19 Q: Okay. And you punched him on his 20 cheek, is that what you are showing us? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Yeah? Okay. And you've also talked 23 a little bit about the build up of police over the 24 course of September 6, -- 25 A: Yeah.
1861 Q: -- and I just wanted to make sure I 2 understood what you say you saw on that day. Can you 3 help me out a little bit there? 4 A: Well at -- at these checkpoints we 5 noticed that there was more and more cops -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- accumulating -- 8 Q: Okay. And you've talked about two 9 (2) checkpoints on Army Camp Road? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And how many police do you say were 12 at each checkpoint? 13 A: I don't know, there was -- 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: I don't know, there was -- there was 16 a few of them. 17 Q: Okay. Two (2) or three (3)? 18 A: More, maybe about four (4), five 19 (5). 20 Q: Okay. And that was something new on 21 September the 6th? 22 A: Yeah. They had -- they having that 23 many police at those checkpoints, yeah. 24 Q: Okay. And did you see that in the 25 morning of September 6, or in the afternoon of September
1871 6; can you recall? 2 A: I can't remember if they were there 3 in the morning, but on the afternoon I think they were 4 there. 5 Q: Okay. And then you were telling us 6 little bit about the evening of September the 6th, and 7 do you agree with me that you have a pretty poor 8 recollection now, of the events of September the 6th at 9 night? 10 A: Well, it was a long time ago, -- 11 Q: Sure. 12 A: -- and at the time I really didn't - 13 - didn't realize that -- that we might, you know, have 14 to go to Court or anything, and I expected to go to 15 jail, yeah. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: And I didn't think that we were 18 going to be shot at or -- or stuff like that, eh, so -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- I never written nothing down or 21 anything. 22 Q: Right. And you told you us, I 23 think, in the evening of September the 6th, that you 24 started to see police appearing at the bend of the road; 25 is that right?
1881 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And was that -- can you help us? 3 Was it sort of late afternoon in the evening -- 4 A: It was -- 5 Q: -- or was it dark by that time? 6 A: -- it was getting dark. 7 Q: Getting dark? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And you said some came from 10 Army Camp Road and some came down East Parkway? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And did they come in cars or 13 did they -- 14 A: The ones coming down on East Parkway 15 Drive were walking and -- and I can't remember if they 16 were -- I -- I don't think they were driving down Army 17 Camp Road, I really can't remember. But I know they 18 were out there on that bend. 19 Q: Okay. And do you remember them 20 coming as a group or do you remember them just coming a 21 few at a time, and sort of gradually building up? 22 A: I -- well I wasn't -- I wasn't 23 watching, but I -- I knew that they were -- they were -- 24 they were gathering there. 25 Q: Okay. And then you told us that you
1891 went to get your dog at the barracks? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And do you recall how you got to the 4 barracks? 5 A: "OPP Who" car. 6 Q: You -- did you drive yourself? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No? 9 A: Robert. 10 Q: Robert Isaac drove you? And I 11 understand that you had a black pit bull at the time? 12 A: His mother was a pit bull. 13 Q: Okay. And then you brought the dog 14 back to the Park? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And where did you get off? Did 17 Robert Isaac let you off at some place with the dog? 18 A: Yeah, we got out right in the 19 parking lot. When I opened the door, he -- the dog just 20 took off. 21 Q: Okay. Is that the parking lot down 22 by the store? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. And then I think you said you 25 were at the store?
1901 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And did you stay there for 3 some time? 4 A: I can't remember how long I was 5 there. 6 Q: Okay. And then I think you said 7 someone told you -- came to the store and said that they 8 kicked your dog? 9 A: It was more like they yelled over. 10 Q: Okay. Yelled over from where? 11 A: There was a guy standing in the -- 12 in the parking lot. 13 Q: The parking lot by the store? 14 A: Yeah, by the -- along the fence line 15 there. He yelled out, Worm, somebody kicked your dog. 16 Q: Okay. And then you went to the 17 fence line? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And by the fence line, do you mean 20 the fence line that separated the Park from the sandy 21 parking lot? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Okay. And can you give us some idea 24 when you went to the fence about how many people were in 25 the parking lot, that is, in the sandy parking area?
1911 A: In the sandy parking area? 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: There was -- there was quite a few 4 police. 5 Q: Okay. And can you give us some idea 6 about how many people were behind the fence, that is, in 7 the Park along the fence line? 8 A: Maybe around twelve (12) to fifteen 9 (15). 10 Q: Okay. And I think you told us that 11 the area was dark? Is that right? 12 A: Yeah. Well, not real dark. 13 Q: Okay. Was there -- was it early 14 enough in the evening that was -- that there was still 15 light? 16 A: There -- there -- there might have 17 been light from the -- from the store lights that were 18 on, eh? 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And -- and there was lights on, I 21 think, in the -- in the cottage across the road. The 22 outside lights were on. 23 Q: Okay. Now, if you look behind you on 24 the map and you say that there were lights in the 25 cottage, can you help us understand what cottage you
1921 might be talking about? 2 A: There's -- there's a cottage -- a 3 white cottage way -- way at the back and there's another 4 one right beside this driveway -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- that -- that was doing the -- had 7 a outside -- outside light on. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: If I remember correctly. 10 Q: And so, just for record, what you're 11 showing us is at the sort of, north side of the 12 intersection between Army Camp Road and East Parkway. 13 There's a -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- driveway indicated. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And you're saying that north of that 18 is a cottage? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And that cottage had an outside 21 light? 22 A: Yeah, I think -- 23 Q: Is that like a house light? 24 A: Yeah it's just -- 25 Q: On the --
1931 A: -- one (1) -- one (1) of the -- the 2 light that -- by your door. 3 Q: Yeah, just a little light over the 4 door? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. And so, but for that light by 7 that cottage, and the light at the store, were there any 8 other lights that you recall? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q: Okay. So, I take it then, it would 11 have been pretty dark? 12 A: I don't know. I can't remember if 13 the moon was out or what. 14 Q: Okay. And you told us that at one 15 (1) point in time, you were along the fence and Cecil 16 Bernard George then goes over the fence. Do you recall 17 that? 18 A: Yeah, I remember taking a glance 19 over. 20 Q: Okay. Now, was Cecil Bernard George 21 on your left or on your right? 22 A: He was on my left. 23 Q: Okay. Can you help us understand 24 where you were standing by the fence? Do you recall? 25 A: It was around the -- the area of the
1941 turnstile. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And to the north of the turnstile. 4 Q: To the north of the turnstile? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. And can you help us understand 7 about how far Cecil Bernard George would have been away 8 from you? 9 A: About from here to the camera over 10 there. 11 Q: Okay, now I got to tell you, I'm a 12 bad estimator of distance. As a carpenter, you may be a 13 better estimator than I am. Would you say, what -- 14 that's about twenty-five (25) feet? 15 A: Somewhere around there, yeah. 16 Q: Somewhere around there? Okay. And 17 you told us that Cecil Bernard George went over the 18 fence and you told us you thought the reason he did that 19 was to try and reason with the police? Do you recall 20 that? 21 A: I don't know. I don't know what he 22 was up to. 23 Q: Okay. Do you recall when Cecil 24 Bernard George went over the fence whether or not he had 25 anything in his hand like a stick or a pole?
1951 A: I -- I just glanced over long enough 2 to -- to see that -- that it was him. 3 Q: Going over the fence? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. Could -- could you tell one 6 (1) way or the other if he was carrying anything? 7 A: I don't -- I -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- can't tell you. 10 Q: Okay. And once Cecil Bernard George 11 went over the fence, do I understand that the rest of 12 the occupiers went over the fence as well? Can you 13 recall how that happened? 14 A: I -- can't recall. I can't even 15 recall how I got over the fence. 16 Q: Okay. You told us that, at some 17 point in time, you were in the sandy parking area and 18 you were getting clubbed? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And I take it you still had 21 you pick axe handle in your hand? 22 A: No. I dropped that somehow. I 23 think I threw it. 24 Q: Okay. So did you have anything in 25 your hand, any weapon to hit people with --
1961 A: No. 2 Q: -- when you were in the sandy 3 parking area? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. And when you were in the 6 sandy parking area, were there other occupiers out in 7 the parking area too? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And I take it some of them at least 10 had clubs or sticks or metal sticks in their hands and 11 were fighting with the police? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And I take it that then people would 14 have been yelling? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And I take it the noise was quite 17 loud? 18 A: I can't remember if -- how loud it 19 was. 20 Q: Okay. And I take it that while you 21 were in the sandy parking lot, in the middle of the 22 fight, you would have been quite occupied? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And can you tell us, while you were 25 in the middle of that fight, did you see Cecil Bernard
1971 George? 2 A: I remember glancing over and -- and 3 seeing -- seeing him getting -- getting surrounded, so 4 they say, and -- and then I just had to pay attention to 5 what -- what I was doing. 6 Q: Right. So if I understand what 7 you're saying, all you saw was Cecil Bernard George 8 being surrounded? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And then you were busy with other 11 things? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. You actually didn't have very 14 much time at all to look around? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No. Okay. And then it sounded 17 like, from your evidence, that the next thing you recall 18 was hearing that Dudley had been shot; is -- 19 A: I -- I recognized my -- my son's 20 voice. 21 Q: Right. Do you recall anything 22 between the time of the fighting with the OPP in the 23 sandy parking lot and hearing that voice? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. I think you were asked a few
1981 questions earlier about giving a statement to the SIU; 2 do you recall that? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. And did you have a chance to 5 look at that statement before you came to give evidence 6 today? 7 A: Some of it, yeah; I never had much 8 time this morning or last night. 9 Q: Okay. Had you had an opportunity to 10 look at that statement when it was written? 11 A: I can't remember. It's -- a lot of 12 stuff I try to forget and -- 13 Q: Sure. 14 A: -- and some stuff I -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- can't remember, and some stuff, 17 something will happen, somebody will say something and 18 then I do remember. 19 Q: Sure. And I wanted to ask you, 20 because in that statement which was dated October 14th, 21 1995, one of the things that you told the SIU 22 investigators was you were talking about when the bus 23 came out of the park and what you said, and this is on 24 page 3 of that statement, is that you could hear 25 something like firecrackers going off in the bus; do you
1991 recall? 2 A: Yeah. I don't remember saying that. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And I think you told us when you 5 heard the voice saying Dudley was shot, that you and 6 Buck were behind the dumpster? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: That was -- we were behind a 10 dumpster after -- after we took Dudley to the "OPP Who" 11 car. 12 Q: Okay. Let me see if I understand 13 this then. You heard that Dudley was shot? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Yeah. And you went to where Dudley 16 was? 17 A: I went looking around and I found 18 him on the driver's side of the bus. 19 Q: Okay. And that -- that's at the 20 south end of the sandy parking lot? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Is that right? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And I think you had told us that -- 25 I take it it would have been dark in that area?
2001 A: I can't remember how dark it was. 2 Q: Okay. Well if you look at the map 3 behind you, that area is far away from -- it appears to 4 be far away from the cottage that had the little house 5 light on it -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- and from the store? 8 A: I don't know what the bushes were 9 like beside the store that -- it obviously now that 10 they're grown over because nobody cut them in the last 11 nine (9) years. 12 Q: Okay. And I take it that when you 13 were looking for Dudley, that you were concerned about 14 him, is that right? 15 A: Oh yeah. 16 Q: Right. And I take it when you saw 17 Dudley your focus would have been on him and getting him 18 back into the Park, is that right? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: So do you agree with me that you 21 wouldn't have been looking around the area? 22 A: What do you mean looking around? 23 Q: Well, I'm going to suggest to you 24 that you would have been looking to try to find Dudley 25 and when you saw him, that your focus was on getting him
2011 back into the Park? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Yeah. And so you would have done 4 that and not spent time looking around the area? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Yeah. Okay. And just so I 7 understand what you're saying there. After Dudley is 8 put in the "OPP Who" car, you say you went back into the 9 sandy parking area? 10 A: I got -- first I -- like got behind 11 the dumpster and then our guys were still out there and 12 I went back out there, yeah. 13 Q: Okay. And you --you've shown in the 14 diagram that the dumpster is now -- is in the sandy 15 parking lot? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. And so you went back out and 18 you were behind the dumpster and you -- you were with 19 Buck Doxtator? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Is that right? And at the time that 22 you went out after Dudley had been put in the "OPP Who" 23 car, was the bus still outside the Park? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Was the car still outside the Park?
2021 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And were they parked or were they 3 moving? 4 A: They were -- the bus -- the bus had 5 stopped. I don't know if it was backing up but I 6 pounded on the front of it and told them to back it up 7 there, they were shooting. 8 Q: Okay. And where was the car in 9 relation to the bus? 10 A: It was in front to the driver side. 11 Q: Okay. And I think you had told Mr. 12 Worme that it was Waldo's car? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Can you describe the car for us? 15 A: It's a Dodge Dynasty. 16 Q: Pardon me? 17 A: A Dodge Dynasty. About a '78, 18 around there. 19 Q: Okay. And that wasn't your car? 20 A: At one time it was. 21 Q: It was your car at one time? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Okay. And how did it end up being 24 Waldo's car? 25 A: I traded him.
2031 Q: Okay. 2 A: He had a Chev and I had bought a 3 Blazer that needed a motor and I was going to take the 4 motor out of the car I traded Waldo and put it in the 5 Blazer. 6 Q: Okay. Is there anything else that 7 you recall about the night of September the 6th? Or 8 have you pretty much told us? 9 A: I've pretty much told, yeah, what I 10 remember. 11 Q: Okay. And you told us later on that 12 Judas George told you to burn down the Park store? Do 13 you recall that? 14 A: What I said was I stopped to talk to 15 him. 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: And somebody said burn the fucking 18 store. 19 Q: Okay. And you told us you did? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And did you use gas? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And where did you get the gas from? 24 A: Out of the gas pumps at the Park. 25 Q: Okay. And where they located?
2041 A: At the maintenance building. 2 Q: Okay. And how did you get gas from 3 the maintenance building up to the store? 4 A: Somebody had an ATV and I rode on 5 the back of that carrying -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- carrying the can of gas. 8 Q: Okay. And where did you get the can 9 from? 10 A: The maintenance building. 11 Q: Okay. And did you spend any time -- 12 after Dudley George had been taken away, did you spend 13 much time in the sandy parking lot area; do you recall? 14 A: No, I -- I remember -- the last 15 thing I remember when I was in the parking lot was 16 pounding on the back of Waldo's car, telling him to back 17 up, they were shooting, and -- and I remember the back 18 tire, the back passenger side tire was shot out. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And that's the last thing I remember 21 about that. 22 Q: Okay. We heard some evidence 23 earlier that later on that night, a number of occupiers 24 were -- were on the road, East Parkway and Army Camp 25 Road. Were you one of those people?
2051 A: When was this? 2 Q: Later on that night, we heard -- 3 that is, that would have been into the morning of 4 September the 7th, during the -- the night of September 5 6th, morning of September 7th, we heard that a number of 6 occupiers were walking along the road of East Parkway 7 and Army Camp Drive, for example, picking up casings and 8 shells. Were you one of those people? 9 A: I think in that -- at some point in 10 time I was there the next day, yeah. 11 Q: You were there on September the 7th? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: You were there during the day time? 14 A: It was daylight out, yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what you 16 were doing in the Park on September the 7th? 17 A: I don't remember. 18 Q: Okay. Were you in the area around 19 the sandy parking lot? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. Were a number of people in 22 that area with you? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And was it the same thing on 25 September the 8th, the next -- the day after that?
2061 A: I think the guys from Oneida were -- 2 were there. 3 Q: Okay. And who were the guys from 4 Oneida? 5 A: I think it was Layton Elijah and 6 -- and his guys. 7 Q: Okay. And how many guys came from 8 Oneida? 9 A: I don't know, there was a few. 10 Q: Okay. And during the course of time 11 on the 7th and the 8th and after that, I take it there 12 would have been a number of people that were in and 13 around the sandy parking lot area? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Yeah? Okay. I don't have any other 16 questions. Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. Mr. Downard...? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 23 Q: Sir, my name is Peter Downard, and I 24 appear for the former Ontario Premier Mike Harris. And 25 I just have a few questions for you, about your
2071 evidence. 2 As I heard your evidence, you said that 3 you were not involved in any discussions regarding 4 planning of the occupation of the Park; right? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And you gave evidence that you say 7 there were to be no firearms in the Park; right? 8 A: Well, this was -- I can't remember 9 when -- that was mentioned. 10 Q: But as I heard your evidence, you 11 said that Buck probably told them there were to be no 12 firearms and you were just stating your belief you had - 13 - you had not witnessed a person named Buck saying that; 14 right? 15 A: No, I don't -- I don't remember 16 anybody saying that. 17 Q: But you said in your evidence that 18 Buck probably told people there were to be no firearms-- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- right? Is that Buck Doxtator? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Why was it that you believe that Buck 23 Doxtator would have said something like that? 24 A: Why would he say that? 25 Q: Right. Why would you believe that --
2081 that Buck, as opposed to anybody else would have said 2 that? 3 A: Well, he knows -- he knows a lot of 4 them -- a lot of the guys down there. 5 Q: Well, lots of the occupiers knew a 6 lot of the other occupiers down there, right? 7 A: What was that? 8 Q: Well, I'm -- wouldn't you agree with 9 me that there are lots of occupiers -- among the 10 occupying group of people, there were lots of occupiers 11 who knew lots of other occupiers. Right? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And so, what I'm just wondering is 14 why there is any particular reason why you would believe 15 that Buck Doxtator would have been the one to be saying 16 what the rule was regarding firearms -- just why you 17 believe that to be -- why you believed it would be him 18 as opposed to anybody else? 19 A: Well, he -- the guys from -- from 20 down -- down there, they -- they look up to him, eh? 21 Q: He was regarded as a -- a practical 22 leader or a leader in some sense? 23 A: In -- in -- in their culture or -- 24 yeah. 25 Q: What about -- and when you say, "They
2091 looked up to him as leader," are you talking about the 2 people down at Oneida? Is that right? 3 A: Oneida, yeah. 4 Q: Oneida? I beg your pardon, sir. 5 What about other occupiers, did they look up to Buck 6 Doxtator as a leader? 7 A: Well, he was a good friend of -- of 8 the guys in -- in the -- that were occupying, yeah. 9 Q: Yes, but in addition to being a good 10 friend, was he someone who was looked up to as a -- a 11 leader of the occupying group? 12 A: I don't think so. 13 Q: Now, you recall that you gave some 14 evidence about people listening to an AM radio plugged 15 in over at the Park store and they were listening to the 16 news on the AM radio. Correct? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And you heard on the AM radio that 19 somebody, you're not sure who, was trying to get a court 20 injunction over the occupation of the Park. Right? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Do you recall how many people were 23 sitting around listening to the radio when this was 24 being broadcast about the injunction? 25 A: No, I don't recall.
2101 Q: Can you give me any -- it -- it was 2 more than just you, right? 3 A: Yeah. There were more than just me. 4 Q: Would -- would it be less than ten 5 (10)? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: More than ten (10)? 8 A: Less than ten (10). 9 Q: Less than ten (10)? Would it be 10 between five (5) and ten (10)? Can you give us any 11 sense at all? 12 A: Maybe around five (5). I'm not sure. 13 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether, when 14 that news came across the radio, anyone said anything 15 about that news that someone was trying to get an 16 injunction against your occupation? 17 A: What was that again? 18 Q: Did anybody say anything about this 19 news of someone trying to get an injunction about the 20 occupation? 21 A: No. 22 Q: In the time, or on -- on that day or 23 at any time were you in the Park, did anybody ever say 24 anything to you about any intention to do anything about 25 a -- a possible injunction?
2111 A: What was that again? 2 Q: After you -- you've heard -- let's 3 start with after you hear the news about the possible 4 injunction or the attempt to get an injunction on the 5 radio -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- from that time up until the 8 confrontation with the police in the sandy parking lot 9 with the -- the fighting, do you recall anybody saying 10 anything about doing anything about this possible 11 injunction? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did anybody say anything about 14 whether they cared whether an injunction was obtained or 15 not? 16 A: I can't recall. 17 Q: As -- as a bit of housekeeping, if 18 you just pardon me for a moment, sir. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Just -- just for the 23 record I -- I don't believe this has been marked as an 24 exhibit. I want to show you a document that I believe 25 everyone now has and provided with by the Commission.
2121 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 4 Q: Sir, can you look at that and can 5 you tell me whether that's the -- the letter that was in 6 the -- the letter that was in the newspaper that Gerald 7 George wrote that had been of concern to you? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Sir, it's -- you'll see in the lower 12 lefthand corner of the page I gave you, or at least it's 13 on the page that I have, it may not be on the page I 14 gave you. I'm informed by Commission counsel that this 15 is a copy of a letter that was published in the Forest 16 Standard on August 30, 1995. 17 And you'll see that in the middle of the 18 page under the Letters to the Editor heading, there is a 19 letter apparently from Gerald C. George, Councillor, 20 Kettle and Stony Point. 21 Is this the letter that had been in the 22 newspaper that you were concerned about when you had 23 your confrontation with Gerald George? 24 A: Yeah. 25 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Perhaps that could
2131 be the next exhibit just for the record? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-73 Your Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-73: Forest Standard Newspaper 6 clipping of August 30, 1995, of 7 letter by Gerald George. 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 10 fine. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 13 Q: Now Ms. Jones was asking you some 14 questions about the extent to which you were drinking 15 during the days in which the Park was occupied on 16 September 4th, 5th and 6th, and I may just not be 17 understanding the evidence correctly. 18 As I understand it you were drinking on 19 the 4th -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- and you said that you were 22 hungover on the 5th? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And was it your evidence that you 25 may have had a small number of beers on the 5th?
2141 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And I take it that on the 6th you 3 were not hungover? 4 A: Yeah I was still hungover. 5 Q: You were still hungover on the 6th, 6 from the 4th? 7 A: Yeah. Yeah. 8 Q: Did you drink any beer on the 6th? 9 A: I might have tried one (1) or two 10 (2). 11 Q: Any more than that? 12 A: I don't remember. 13 Q: And I would like to ask you a 14 question about the incident with your dog. And this was 15 a pit bull mix, right? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And as I understood it, you became 18 aware that the police had a canine unit and so you 19 decided to go and get your dog? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And you went up to the Army Camp and 22 brought the dog back in the car and as soon as you got 23 back to the Park and you opened the car door, the dog 24 took off, right? 25 A: Yeah.
2151 Q: Did you see what your dog did once 2 it had taken off from the car? 3 A: I can't remember. 4 Q: Do you recall how long it was before 5 your dog had taken off and you were told by someone that 6 somebody had -- or that your dog had been kicked? 7 A: I can't remember how long it was. 8 Q: Was it a very short period of time 9 or some more significant period of time pass? 10 A: It wasn't very long. 11 Q: Could it have been a few minutes? 12 A: It could have been. I don't know. 13 Q: All right. Well, isn't it the case 14 that after your dog had taken off, your dog went over 15 the fence, the fence between the -- let's call it the 16 inside of the park and the sandy parking lot? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And isn't it the case that after 19 your dog went over that fence, at least at some point, 20 the police said to call your dog off? 21 A: I don't remember hearing them say 22 that. 23 Q: Do you recall anyone saying, Call 24 your dog off? 25 A: No.
2161 Q: Well, just bear with me for a 2 moment, sir. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Now, sir, I'd like to refer to a -- 7 a statement that you apparently gave to the SIU on 8 September 10th of 1997. This is, for the record, 9 Inquiry document 1004579. 10 And do you recall having a -- a second 11 interview with the SIU a -- a couple years, 12 approximately, after the events of September 1995? 13 A: I don't remember the second one (1). 14 I remember the first one (1) but I don't remember the 15 second one (1). 16 Q: Well, would you deny -- are you 17 saying you deny there was ever a second interview or is 18 it just a matter of your not recalling? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: All right. Well, sir, this document 21 is in our records -- in the productions from the 22 Commission, and at the bottom of the -- the third page 23 there's a -- a question and an answer. And the person 24 asking the question says -- and this is -- you can take 25 it from me, this is about the events of the evening of
2171 the 6th. And the person says: 2 "Okay. Describe what happened to your 3 dog." 4 And then this statement, which appears to 5 be a transcript, indicates that you said: 6 "Well, they had their canine unit out. 7 They had been walking around them. So 8 we came and got my dog. And as soon as 9 he got out of the car, they took -- 10 took off over the -- over the fence -- 11 fence, after their dog. They said, 12 Call your dog off. And I heard him 13 yelp, and he come back. And that's 14 when we went up to the fence. And they 15 came to the fence and they backed off 16 and they come back again." 17 Now, sir, does that assist you? Do you 18 recall ever telling an SIU investigator that on this 19 evening, they said to call your dog off? 20 A: I could -- like I said before, it's 21 been a long time and I -- I can't remember a lot of 22 things that happened. 23 Q: I -- I take it that you're not 24 denying you said that, you're just saying you don't 25 remember?
2181 A: I don't remember. 2 Q: All right. Now, as I understand it, 3 the way you describe the events that followed, is that 4 you inquired of the police as to who had done something 5 to your dog; right? 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: And a police officer, you say, came 8 up to the fence, gave a flick of his -- his ASP baton, 9 and said: "Why, what are you going to do about it?" 10 A: No. He said: "Why, what are you 11 going to do about it," and then he went like that. 12 Q: All right. Thank you. When you say 13 "like that," you're indicating a flicking motion of the 14 wrist but -- and that would be opening his ASP baton? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And then he hit you by the shoulder 17 with the baton? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And as I understand your evidence, 20 somebody behind you said: "Yeah, what are you going to 21 do about it?" 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: So that was somebody from within the 24 occupying group? 25 A: Yeah.
2191 Q: Do you have any recollections to who 2 that was? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And then you asked for the pick axe 5 handle and somebody gave it to you? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Do you recall who gave it to you? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And then you -- you swung the pick 10 axe handle and you hit the police officer back? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And you hit his shield and 13 you hit his helmet? 14 A: I think so. 15 Q: So he hit you in the shoulder, and 16 you hit him on the shield and you hit him in the head, 17 with the pick axe handle? 18 A: I think so. 19 Q: Was that a two-handed blow or is 20 this just a -- this is -- 21 A: Just one. 22 Q: -- just more -- the piece is more 23 suited to one hand; right? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: About how much would that thing
2201 weigh? 2 A: I don't know. Not very heavy. 3 Q: About how long was it; do you 4 recall? 5 A: About three (3) feet long. 6 Q: About three (3) feet long? 7 A: Some -- somewhere around there. 8 Q: Just bear with me for a moment, sir, 9 please. 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thank you very much, 13 sir. Those are my questions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much, Mr. Downard. I think the last cross-examiner 16 is Mr. Sulman. I think we can do it, but depending on 17 how long you think you might be, and finish today. We 18 still have, of course, Mr. Scullion. That's fine. 19 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Mr. Commissioner, 20 you are going to be very pleased to hear my response, 21 and that is, I wanted to make sure that the letter that 22 had been referred to actually got in the evidence for 23 completion of evidence. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 25 already in.
2211 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: It's in, I'm out of 2 questions. Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much, Mr. Sulman. 5 How long do you think you might be, Mr. 6 Scullion? 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Ten (10) minutes, 8 maybe. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 10 minutes. So I think we can finish today. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 13 Q: I too wanted to make sure that the 14 letter made its way into evidence for Mr. George. And 15 maybe just following up the introduction of that into 16 evidence; you were familiar with Gerald George before 17 September 4th -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- or September 6th of 1995? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And you were familiar with Gerald 22 George before he wrote that letter? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And what kind of relationship did 25 you have with Gerald George, before all of this
2221 occurred? 2 A: I wouldn't call us friends. 3 Q: I'll leave it at that. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Do you recall you were asked some 6 questions about an incident that occurred on September 7 6th involving yourself and Roger George and his blue 8 Trans Am? 9 A: Roderick George you mean? 10 Q: Roderick George. Do you recall 11 being asked questions about that and certain comments 12 that police officers have attributed to you in the 13 course of that incident? Sorry, September 4th, my 14 apologies. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Do you recall how many police 17 officers we're present during that incident on September 18 4th? 19 A: When it began or? 20 Q: Well when it began, how many were 21 there? 22 A: I think there was only two (2). 23 Q: All right. And more arrived? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: In the course of the event?
2231 A: Yeah. 2 Q: How many were outside of their cars? 3 A: I don't know. I never took count. 4 Q: Was there more than one (1)? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: More than two (2)? 7 A: What was the question again? 8 Q: How many police officers were 9 outside of their cars during this incident? 10 A: I don't know. I know there -- there 11 was more -- more than -- there was a couple that pulled 12 up but I can't recall. 13 Q: You don't recall how many were 14 outside of their vehicles? 15 A: No. 16 Q: But there was at least one (1) 17 outside of his vehicle? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And you don't know if there was more 20 than one (1)? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Some questions were asked about your 23 dog as a result of the September 6th incident. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Did you have a chance to check your
2241 dog for injuries following that incident? 2 A: Yeah. It was the next day, we were 3 sitting around up where I lived and I noticed the dog he 4 was licking -- licking the outside of his leg and I was 5 wondering why, so, I went over and looked and there was 6 a bullet hole in his leg. 7 Q: There was a bullet hole in his leg 8 that you found -- 9 A: His hind -- hind leg, yeah. 10 Q: -- on the 7th? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: There's been a lot of discussion 13 here about the sandy parking lot and the presence of 14 people, occupiers, in that sandy parking lot. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: In fact, a distinction seems to be 17 made between being on one side of the fence and inside 18 what has been referred to as the Ipperwash Provincial 19 Park and being on the other side of the fence in the 20 sandy parking lot. 21 Your dog went outside of that -- or went 22 over that fence into the parking lot and was shot. 23 Slippery went outside of that fence or pass that fence 24 and was beaten. 25 A: Yeah.
2251 Q: Yeah. Anybody who went outside of 2 that or past that fence into the parking lot was 3 involved in a scuffle with the police? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: You were involved in the scuffle 6 with the police when you went into that parking lot? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: You were beaten with an Asp by a 9 police officer when you went into that parking lot? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Did any police officers tell you or 12 any of the occupiers that night that if you went into 13 the parking lot you'd be beaten? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did any of them tell you you'd be 16 shot? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Thank you. 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Those are my 20 questions, Mr. Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much. Yes, Mr. Worme...? 23 MR. DONALD WORME: I don't have any re- 24 exam. I simply wanted to thank the witness for his 25 evidence and that is the conclusion then of today's
2261 proceedings I gather. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much, Mr. George. Thank you very much for coming 4 and giving your evidence. 5 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 6 7 8 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 11 finished a witness in a day, that's pretty good 12 accomplishment. I think we can adjourn for the day and 13 reconvene tomorrow morning at ten o'clock. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 18 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, November 3rd at 19 10:00 a.m. 20 21 --- Upon adjourning at 4:29 p.m. 22 23 24 25
2271 2 Certified Correct, 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 _____________________ 10 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25