11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 1st, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) (np) Police 21 Peter West ) 22 23 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 24 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 25 Debra Newell ) K. Deane
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 8 Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) (np) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 ABRAHAM DAVID ALVIN GEORGE, Resumed; 6 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter West 8 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 25 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 180 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 224 11 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 235 12 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 242 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-69 Document Number 2002504, 4 Minutes of first meeting of 5 Aazhoodena Stoney Point 6 Warriors Society, August 7 13th, 1993 99 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:30 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 ABRAHAM DAVID ALVIN GEORGE, Resumed; 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning, everybody. Nice to see everybody back together 11 again. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 13 Commissioner. Before we begin, Mr. Scullion wanted to 14 say a few words. 15 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 16 Millar. I just wanted to take the opportunity this 17 morning to thank you, Mr. Commissioner, for breaking 18 early on our last day of Hearings. It was much 19 appreciated and Mr. George wanted to express his thanks 20 as well. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'd like to say 23 thanks to everybody, too, for having an understanding. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. The next 25 cross-examiner is the OPP and Mr. Peter West is here
81 today, sir, for the Ontario Provincial Police. 2 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. George, may I remind 3 you, sir, that you're still under Oath. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 morning, Mr. West. 7 MR. PETER WEST: Good morning, Mr. 8 Commissioner. Mr. Sandler sends his regrets. As I 9 think your commission is aware his -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MR. PETER WEST: -- Mother passed away 12 on Wednesday -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I am aware. 14 MR. PETER WEST: And he's sitting Shiva 15 until tomorrow and I'm here in his stead. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sure 17 you'll do an excellent job, Mr. West. 18 MR. PETER WEST: Try to fill the shoes 19 but hard shoes to fill. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Nice to see 21 you. 22 MR. PETER WEST: Thank you. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER WEST: 25 Q: Mr. George, I am Counsel for the
91 OPP, just by way of introduction, and I have about five 2 (5) areas that I want to deal with you, to go through 3 with you and I don't anticipate that I'll be that long, 4 okay? 5 The first is, from your evidence on the 6 last occasion, there was some discussion about some 7 property in the built -- actually in the rifle range 8 area, as I understand it, in -- a property that was 9 being occupied by Kevin Simon. 10 Do you know the property I'm talking 11 about? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And as I understand it, 14 this was a property that was the range hut -- was a 15 Building 105? 16 A: I'm not sure what building it was. 17 It was -- 18 Q: It was part of the Army Camp? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. And that's the building 21 that burnt down? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. To me there was a little 24 bit of confusion, perhaps, but just so it's -- could be 25 -- 'cause he had an ice cream hut or something as well
101 that he also brought on to the property? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And -- but it was the Army Camp hut 4 that he had been staying in, that he had his property 5 in, that was ultimately burnt down? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Just so that's clear. 8 Now, as I understand it, as well, the 9 first move onto the rifle range occurred in May of 1993; 10 is that right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And as I understand it, that -- that 13 occurred because the First Nations people believed that 14 they had a right to that land? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then there was a push into the 17 built-up area, in July of 1995, July 29th, 1995; is that 18 right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And, again, it was because First 21 Nations people believed that they had a right to occupy 22 that land? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then on September the 4th, 1995, 25 there was a push into Ipperwash Provincial Park, which
111 was the property, as I understand it, to the north of 2 the built-up area; right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And, again, that occurred because 5 First Nations people believed that you had a right to 6 that land? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then there was a push into the 9 parking lot, which I understand is referred here to as 10 sort of the sandy parking lot; is that right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Which is sort of adjacent to the 13 Park just to the west, just to the -- there's a fence 14 and then -- then there's the sandy parking lot; is that 15 right? 16 A: Yeah, it's on the other side of the 17 fence. 18 Q: Right. And -- and again, there was 19 a belief within the First Nation's people, that they had 20 a right to that land, that was part -- 21 A: Yeah, it's part of the Park. 22 Q: -- part of the Park, -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- and part of this whole plot of 25 land; is that right?
121 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, I noticed in your evidence from 3 the last day that you made reference to some land that 4 some cottages were on, over at the, I guess it's to the 5 east of the Park in Port Franks...? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You know the area I'm talking about? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you it 10 was the belief of the First Nations people that that was 11 their land as well? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And there was discussions about, at 14 some point in the future, moving into that land and 15 occupying it as well? 16 A: I'm not aware -- aware of any 17 discussion about taking that over. 18 Q: All right. Are you aware that there 19 were those who were talking about doing the same thing 20 with that land as had been done with the built-up area 21 and Ipperwash? 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: With respect, -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 24 Ross...? 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- the answer is
131 clear, he said he was unaware of any such discussion. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, yes. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you. 4 THE WITNESS: There's a -- heck, there's 5 talk about taking all of Canada over, you know. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER WEST: 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Talk about like that -- is that what 10 you are talking about? 11 Q: I understand. I'm not talking about 12 taking all of Canada, just whether -- and again, I put 13 it to you formally as discussions, I'll -- I'll put it 14 down less formally. 15 That there was talk amongst people within 16 the First Nations about moving forward into that land as 17 well. 18 A: No, there was, like -- yeah, 19 everybody knows that's that -- that corner is part of 20 our land too. 21 Q: All right. I'm still -- 22 A: But I wasn't, you know, I never -- 23 I'm not aware of no formal meeting where we set -- set a 24 date on which we were going to take that over. 25 Q: All right. I'm not suggesting a
141 formal meeting, I'm not suggesting a date even, just 2 that it was talked about? 3 A: Yeah, everybody knows that that 4 corner is our land. 5 Q: Same as Ipperwash Provincial Park, 6 correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. Now, I'm going to suggest to 9 you that while you were -- and as I understand it, from 10 your evidence, I read through your -- your testimony 11 from the three (3) days that you've testified already, 12 you were living in the rifle range area from May of 1993 13 until July of 1995, off and on? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And I'm going to suggest 16 to you at no time did the O.P.P. ever attempt to remove 17 any of the occupiers from that land? 18 A: No, just when they come in there, 19 they -- no, they never tried to kick us out or nothing. 20 Q: Right. And when you moved into the 21 built-up area, and you weren't there very long, but from 22 July 29th until September the 4th of 1995, again, there 23 was no attempt by the O.P.P. to remove the occupiers 24 from that land. 25 A: No.
151 Q: And, were you -- you, as I 2 understand from your evidence, you were in a car the day 3 that -- that Vince George came on to Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park after September 4th, or the morning of 5 September the 4th, 1995 and tried to serve papers. 6 A: Yeah, somewhere around that time, 7 yeah. I remember -- remember seeing him coming. 8 Q: All right. And apart from the time 9 when you saw Officer Vince George attempt to serve 10 papers, actually I think it's actually September the 11 5th, at no time did you personally see any O.P.P. 12 officer on the Park property between September the 4th 13 to September the 6th, you personally. 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. Now, I heard some evidence 16 and I read it your transcript of police in the evening 17 of September 5th, this would be the day after you first 18 went into Ipperwash Provincial Park, MNR and the police 19 officers who were originally there, they left; right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And then sometime in the evening of 22 September 5th there were some picnic tables as I 23 understand it they were put into the sandy parking lot 24 area? 25 A: Yes.
161 Q: And I think there was a fire built, 2 the picnic tables were put in a circle of some sort and 3 I think in your evidence you weren't aware, but, you 4 were shown some photographs of a tent that ultimately 5 also was put into that circle? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: But you didn't see that, as I 8 understand it? 9 A: No, I never ever seen the tent. 10 Q: Now as I understand it when the 11 police came at one point in the evening of September 12 5th, after the incident that occurred there, I'm going 13 to suggest to you that the occupiers went back into the 14 Park after that confrontation with the police on the 15 evening of September 5th involving the picnic tables? 16 A: Well we were all over the place 17 basically. 18 Q: But you went back into the Park from 19 the sandy parking lot? 20 A: I think some of us might have went 21 into the Park, some of us stayed out. 22 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest in 23 the morning of September 6th you became aware that the 24 police had come at some point, perhaps with MNR 25 officials, employees, and the tables were removed that
171 had been left in the sandy parking lot area? 2 A: I heard that the tables were 3 removed, yeah. 4 Q: And do you remember -- did you hear 5 that the occupiers who might have been in the sandy 6 parking lot when that occurred, when those tables were 7 being removed, they went back into the Park as well? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. Now, were you aware that in 10 the evening of September 6th, and this would be some 11 time as I understand it around 6:30-seven o'clock, there 12 were occupiers in the parking -- sandy parking lot area, 13 some who had sticks or bats? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And you've indicated in your 16 evidence there were times both before what was happening 17 through July of 1995 into September of 1995, even 18 previous, that there were times when you felt threatened 19 and you would arm yourself with a stick or a bat or 20 something of that nature; right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I'm going to suggest that by the 23 evening of September 6th there was concern amongst the 24 occupiers as to the police actions? 25 A: Yes.
181 Q: Because as I read through the 2 evidence, there was, and I may have the name wrong, but 3 I think it's someone who's related to you called Bernard 4 George? Have I got that -- or is it Cecil Bernard 5 George? 6 A: Yeah, Cecil. 7 Q: Cecil Bernard George who -- 8 A: I don't think he's related to me. 9 Well maybe somewhere farther on down on the line. 10 Q: Okay, all right. And in any event, 11 he comes onto Ipperwash Provincial Park and he brought 12 some two-way radios and brought a scanner? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And as I understood your evidence, 15 you didn't listen in all the time but the scanner was 16 put on and there was -- the occupiers were listening to 17 the OPP communications with one another? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And Cecil Bernard George was telling 20 everyone in the Park that the OPP were massing, is the 21 word that I have you using in your evidence; is that 22 right? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And I'm going to suggest that caused 25 you concern?
191 A: Yes. 2 Q: And caused others concern within the 3 Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: It would be fair to say that there 6 was a feeling that the police were coming to oust you 7 from the Park? 8 A: Yeah. Something -- something was 9 up. 10 Q: Yes, okay. And I'm going to suggest 11 to you that it was during that time when Cecil Bernard 12 George came with the scanner and told everyone that the 13 OPP were massing and there were lots of officers coming, 14 that some of the occupiers began to have sticks and 15 baseball bats and things of that in their hands? 16 A: Yeah, there's a few that hand them, 17 yeah. 18 Q: You, yourself, had a baseball bat in 19 your hand? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. And did you hear of an 22 incident where there were about eight (8) or ten (10) 23 First Nations individuals out in the sandy parking lot 24 area and about -- I think it's four (4) or five (5) them 25 were carrying sticks or bats?
201 A: Am I aware of? 2 Q: Of that happening? Around 6:30, 3 seven o'clock in the evening on September the 6th? 4 A: Yeah, there was people all through 5 there all the time, pretty much. 6 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 7 you that that was something that was -- was new in terms 8 of occupiers being in this sandy parking lot area 9 holding onto sticks or bats; that the previous day on 10 September the 5th, that didn't occur when you had the 11 picnic tables and you were sitting around the fire. 12 As I understand it, there -- there 13 were children? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: At that time. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: On September the 5th, right? 18 A: Yeah, I don't think anybody had any 19 baseball bats then. 20 Q: All right. This -- this would be -- 21 A: Not until -- not until the cops 22 started acting the way they were doing, ramming -- 23 Q: All right. 24 A: -- picnic tables; that's when people 25 starting arming themselves.
211 Q: I understand. I understand. And so 2 -- so the bats -- September the 6th, if someone observed 3 four (4) or five (5) First Nations individuals carrying 4 bats or sticks in the area of the sandy parking lot, 5 that would be -- it would accord with your 6 recollection -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- of what was happening, correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, I know you weren't present for 11 the incident involving Gerald George. 12 A: No, I wasn't there. 13 Q: But you heard about it? 14 A: Yeah, I heard about it. 15 Q: Okay. And you knew that there had 16 been some sort of confrontation between Stewart George 17 and Gerald George? 18 A: Yeah, I heard the Booper, or Gerald, 19 was -- he pulled up to -- up there and he started 20 calling my uncle on -- calling him out for a fight and - 21 - and I think he got slapped and I think that what's 22 started it all. 23 Q: I understand. 24 A: Because he got slapped in the face 25 because he was calling him on.
221 Q: All right. I'm going to suggest to 2 you that this would have really been the first incident 3 that you had heard of since the beginning of, say, even 4 May of 1993 right up until September of 1995, the first 5 incident that involved a confrontation between an 6 occupier and someone who was not a police officer. 7 A: Could you repeat that question? 8 Q: Sure. I'm going to suggest to you 9 this was the first incident from the beginning of May of 10 1993, when First Nations people first went into the 11 rifle range area of the Park right up to September after 12 the occupation of the built-up area and then the 13 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park, this was the 14 first incident that involved a confrontation between an 15 occupier and someone who wasn't a police officer? 16 A: No, there was some confrontations we 17 had on the beach with people. 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: They were trying to force their way 20 in on the beach. 21 Q: This occurred when? 22 A: This is, like, '93 -- '94. Like -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Pretty much a regular thing on the 25 beach.
231 Q: All right. Well, let me put to you a 2 different way, then. From Sept -- July 29th of 1995 3 when you moved into the built-up area of the army camp-- 4 A: Oh -- 5 Q: -- until September the 6th -- 6 A: -- built-up area -- 7 Q: -- or September the 5th of 1995, this 8 was the first confrontation between someone other than a 9 police officer and an occupier. Do you agree with that? 10 A: Just trying to think if we had any 11 confrontations with anybody on the beach at that time or 12 not. 13 Those vacationers, they would always, 14 like, try and start stuff. They think they can go 15 everywhere, so -- didn't want to let them on the beach. 16 They'd always try and push their way on, but I'm just 17 trying to think -- I don't remember anything happening. 18 Q: Okay, thank you. 19 A: But there was things that did happen 20 on the beach there. 21 Q: You're talking about '93/'95 -- '94? 22 A: Yeah, probably right up to the time, 23 pretty much. 24 Q: Okay. Now, as I've read through the 25 evidence it appears to me that at some point part of the
241 fence that was coming out into this sandy parking lot 2 area between the Park and the sandy parking lot area 3 was -- it came down so that vehicles could move in and 4 out between the Park and the sandy parking lot? 5 A: There was a gate there. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: The gate was open. 8 Q: The gate's open? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And where the -- where the bus and 11 the car came out, is that through that gate? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And as I understand it, cars 14 could travel between, then, the sandy parking lot and 15 the Park? 16 A: Yeah, they could. 17 Q: Okay. And as I understand, there 18 were fires started within Ipperwash Provincial Park? 19 Glenn George started a fire within the Park? 20 A: I'm not -- 21 Q: Just north of the gate? 22 A: -- sure if it was Glenn. I'm not 23 sure if it was Glenn. 24 Q: Someone? 25 A: Yes, somebody lit a fire.
251 Q: Okay. 2 A: In front of the store there. 3 Q: In front of the store, right? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Mr. George, thank you. Those are 6 all the questions I have. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. Now, the OPPA, Mr. Roland ...? You've 9 estimated, Mr. Roland, approximately a half a day. Is 10 that estimate still okay? 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: I said half a day or 12 perhaps more, but I think it's still -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 14 estimate? 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: We'll see how we do. 16 Certainly My Friend ahead of me was pretty quick. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: Good morning, Mr. George, my 20 name's -- 21 A: Morning. 22 Q: -- my name's Ian Roland. I'm here 23 to ask you some questions on behalf of the OPPA. Let me 24 start, if I could, with the sawed-off shotgun which we 25 saw the last time we were here.
261 And as I understand it -- I want to ask 2 you a series of questions about that. And as I 3 understand it, you've told us that you purchased it in 4 the winter of 1993/94 and you purchased it from someone 5 by the name of Mark or Mike? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Can you tell us, where did you 8 purchase it? 9 A: It was right at my shack. 10 Q: Right on the property? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: I see. So the person who sold it to 13 you came on to the -- on to the base, did he? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And was he -- was it someone 16 well known to the people on the base, the other 17 occupiers? 18 A: No, I never seen him there too much. 19 Q: Was -- was he -- was the person a 20 native person or non-native -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Sorry? 23 A: Yeah. Native. 24 Q: Native? 25 A: Annishnaabe.
271 Q: And did you know where he was from? 2 A: I assume he's from Kettle Point. 3 Q: I see. You didn't -- you -- had you 4 ever met him before? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Does the name Jackie Mike help you 7 recall who it was? 8 A: Jackie Mike? 9 Q: Jackie Mike. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Jackie Mike? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I don't -- Jackie Mike, no. 18 Q: No? That doesn't help you recall 19 who the person -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: The person's name? All right. And 22 do you know who Three Feathers is? 23 A: Three Feathers? If it's the same 24 guy that I'm thinking about, he's just some guy in 25 London that -- my kids used to play with his kids. He's
281 got a son named Kyle and my -- my girlfriend, she used 2 to live in a -- a apartment building on Grand Ave or 3 something and they used to play with his boy whose name 4 was Kyle and they were like best friends. 5 That's as far as I know of this Three 6 Feathers guy. 7 Q: And is he a native? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And do you what nation? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And was Three Feathers 12 someone that you saw from time to time at all during 13 your occupation of the Base? 14 A: No. Let's see. I'm trying to 15 think about when I first met him. It was when my old 16 lady was living in London. And -- well, the only time 17 I've seen this guy was when he -- he drove his car 18 through the bushes into his -- somebody's living room 19 window. He must have been drunk or something, driving 20 around. 21 Q: Where was that? 22 A: It was beside the apartment 23 buildings. 24 Q: Which apartment buildings? Where? 25 A: Grand Ave and --
291 Q: Which -- which community are we 2 talking about? 3 A: This is in London. 4 Q: In London. 5 A: My girlfriend lived in London. And 6 he -- they must have been in some other apartment 7 building next to us -- next to her apartment building 8 and we heard a big crash one day and went over there and 9 seen this car sticking out of this guy's window and 10 that's who it was, that three (3) feathers guy. I think 11 I might have given him a ride somewhere one time. 12 That's about it. 13 Q: He's a large fellow? 14 A: Large fellow? 15 Q: Tall. 16 A: This guy was small and skinny. It 17 must be a different guy that you're talking about. 18 Q: Okay. And you don't know his name? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Now you say that the person who sold 21 you the shotgun came onto your -- onto the base and did 22 he have other guns for sale apart from the shotgun? 23 A: No. 24 Q: He only had this one -- one gun? 25 A: Yeah.
301 Q: Is this the -- is this the first gun 2 you every purchased or did you purchase guns before 3 this? 4 A: Yeah, I think I had a 22 Cooey model 5 single shot. 6 Q: You purchased that? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Is that the gun that we've had shown 9 to us in evidence? 10 A: Yeah, it was one like that but I 11 can't tell if that one was mine or not. They all look 12 the same. 13 Q: Had you purchased any other guns? 14 A: Pellet gun. 15 Q: I see. That's it? 16 A: Sling shot, yeah. 17 Q: And since you'd not purchased any 18 other guns I take it you've not sold any guns? Or have 19 you? 20 A: I don't think so. 21 Q: Now, had you let somebody know, 22 either Mike or somebody know that you were interested in 23 buying a sawed-off shotgun? Well how is it then that 24 this person who you really tell us you don't know, 25 turned up at your place on the Base with a sawed-off
311 shotgun for your purchase? How did that happen? 2 A: He just showed up at my door. 3 Q: With -- with one gun, a sawed-off 4 shotgun? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And he asked you if you wanted to 7 buy it? A: Yeah. 8 Q: And you'd said you did. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: You hadn't -- you hadn't been 11 looking for one up until then? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No. It must have surprised that 14 this stranger shows up at your door at the Base just to 15 sell you what is an illegal prohibited weapon? 16 A: It didn't surprise me. 17 Q: It didn't surprise you? You just 18 expected someone to be there at your door uninvited -- 19 A: I didn't expect anybody to be there 20 either. 21 Q: Well, if it's not surprise that 22 someone uninvited, unexpected, shows up to sell you what 23 is a prohibited weapon. 24 A: It didn't surprise me. 25 Q: Okay. You knew it was a prohibited
321 weapon didn't you? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: In fact it's illegal to own a gun 4 like this with a barrel less than twenty-one (21) inches 5 length, isn't it? 6 A: Well, I don't know about the length. 7 Q: This one was only -- as we have it 8 in the report sixteen and half (16 1/2) inches so it's 9 well under the legal limit of twenty-one (21) inches 10 isn't it? 11 A: Well, I never measured it. 12 Q: So the stranger comes to your place 13 on the base to sell you an illegal prohibited weapon and 14 you agree to buy it? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Why did you -- why did you buy it? 17 A: I was thinking about ducks, geese, 18 hunting. 19 Q: I see. You'd hunted up until then 20 hadn't you? You've been a hunter? 21 A: Yeah, somewhat. 22 Q: In fact you were fairly familiar 23 with firearms, I take it, because you'd been -- you told 24 us you'd been a cadet. 25 A: Yeah.
331 Q: And you had firearms training as a 2 cadet? A: Yeah. 3 Q: And apart from your training as a 4 cadet, I gather you were familiar with firearms that 5 were owned and used by other male persons in your 6 community? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Yes. In fact you told us that 9 hunting is a traditional right of your people? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And the typical way in which your 12 people hunt is using -- using guns, long guns? 13 A: Pretty much anything you could bring 14 -- whatever you're hunting down with. 15 Q: Yeah. But that's usually a long gun 16 of some kind or another isn't it? 17 A: Somewhat, yeah. I got cousins that 18 bow hunt. I've even -- I've even take prey down with 19 slingshots, rabbits. 20 Q: I understand that but typically the 21 vast majority of hunting is done with a -- with long 22 guns, isn't it? 23 A: I guess so, yeah. 24 Q: Yeah. 25
341 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Most to my hunting up to that day 4 was done with either a slingshot or a pellet gun. I had 5 a .22 that grandpa gave me, it's about it. My dad had a 6 .22. He never let me look at it, though. I seen it on 7 the wall. 8 Q: You've told us that you used this 9 sawed-off shotgun, single barrel shotgun, to hunt ducks 10 and geese and you've told us you used Number 4 shot to 11 do that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yeah. And you indicated that you 14 purchased your .22 bullets from Canadian Tire. Where 15 did you purchase your Number 4 shot? 16 A: Canadian Tire. 17 Q: Canadian Tire? They're a lot more 18 expensive, aren't they, than -- 19 A: Four bucks ($4) a box. 20 Q: Well I understand that in -- back in 21 1995 it was about seven dollars ($7) a box for twenty- 22 five (25) of cheap load, and good quality load was more 23 like about twelve dollars ($12) a box. 24 A: I paid four bucks ($4). 25 Q: You did? Okay. And that was for a
351 box of twenty-five (25)? 2 A: I can't remember how many was in 3 there. 4 Q: All right. And a shotgun of normal 5 length is, I'm told, twenty-six (26) to thirty (30) 6 inches. That's the length of a normal barrel, right? 7 A: I'm not sure about that. 8 Q: Okay. And the optimum distance in - 9 - in shooting geese or ducks for a Number 4 shot and a 10 normal barrelled shotgun, I'm told, you correct me if 11 I'm -- if you disagree, is about thirty (30) yards? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I've taken a goose down that was 16 flying right over my shack. It was probably about -- 17 yes, it was probably about thirty (30) yards. 18 Q: And you've said you took it down 19 with this shot -- with this sawed-off shotgun? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. Well, Mr. George, as I 22 understand there's going to be likely the evidence that 23 you couldn't kill a goose or a duck with that sawed off 24 shotgun with a sixteen half (16 1/2) inch barrel -- 25 A: I got witnesses.
361 Q: -- beyond about ten (10) yards with 2 Number 4 shot, that it would be -- would be like a -- at 3 most a modest sand in the wind at thirty (30) yards. 4 A: I've taken ducks down, geese. 5 Q: Okay, who are your witnesses that 6 you have that saw -- have seen you do that at thirty 7 (30) yards? 8 A: I think Kevin Simon saw me take one 9 (1) down. He was standing on the back of Dudley's porch 10 when -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- I shot this goose down and it 13 landed right on top of my outhouse. One (1) -- couple 14 of pellets went right through the neck. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: And I shot a few ducks at the shit 17 ponds there, the lagoons I guess. I've taken them down 18 there. So, I don't know. 19 Q: And what distance were they? 20 A: Probably about from here to that 21 back wall, maybe. Maybe a little bit closer. 22 Q: I'd say that would be about forty 23 (40) yards? Is that fair, Mr. Commissioner? 24 A: Maybe a little bit closer. 25 Q: Thirty (30) yards?
371 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I couldn't 2 estimate how many yards that is. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, if I 4 may be of assistance. You can count the ranges of the 5 blocks or you can count the tiles they're about two (2) 6 feet on the tiles, so you can just do that, rather than 7 guessing. The tiles are two (2) feet wide. 8 THE WITNESS: Have you got a map of the 9 lagoon? 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: I've got about thirty 11 tiles so that would be about sixty (60) feet. 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Sixty (60) feet. 13 THE WITNESS: Have you got a map of the 14 lagoons down there, 'cause I was standing right on the 15 edge and they were pretty much in the middle of the 16 lagoons. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 20 Q: I don't. and that's -- I don't think 21 we need to get to that. 22 A: Well I've taken -- I've taken ducks 23 and geese down. 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: Yeah.
381 Q: All right. And when you say "take 2 them down" always with this sawed-off, sixteen and a 3 half (16 1/2) inch barrelled shotgun, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Now, did you go hunting 6 from time to time with Marlin Simon? 7 A: Yeah, I think I did once or twice. 8 Q: He certainly testified and you were 9 here to hear his testimony, weren't you? 10 A: Some -- some of it, yeah. 11 Q: That he went hunting with you from 12 time to time and he says that he doesn't recall you 13 having a gun, that you borrowed guns? 14 A: No, well, what the hell? What did I 15 borrow? Yeah, I borrowed guns before for hunting -- 16 Q: He -- 17 A: -- like, I borrowed a -- I don't know 18 -- some -- I forget what calibre it was, but yeah, I 19 borrowed a -- I think it was a .303 Savage or something 20 like that off of somebody to go -- we were running in 21 the bush one (1) time. 22 Q: Well, Marlin was asked whether he 23 recognized the sawed-off shotgun and he said he'd not 24 seen it before and when asked about hunting he said that 25 he hunted with you, but you didn't have your own gun;
391 you used somebody else's gun? 2 A: Yeah. Well, I remember that one (1) 3 time when we ran in the bush, yeah, I did have somebody 4 else's rifle, but for the most time that me and Marlin 5 hunted -- 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: -- I think I was just a spot guy. 8 Q: Well, he says you had someone else's 9 gun, you're saying that's not right? 10 A: Not all the time. I did borrow 11 somebody's gun one (1) time when we were running in the 12 bush. I remember that, but as far as every time -- 13 every single time I went hunting with Marlin, I don't -- 14 I can't even recall, but I remember I've been a spot man 15 lots of times, well, not lots of times, a few times just 16 because of the fact I didn't have a rifle. 17 Q: So, I gather what you're saying is 18 that you hunted with this sawed-off shotgun and you did 19 it openly and notoriously and other people saw you with 20 it, using it. 21 A: Openly and notoriously? 22 Q: That's like -- you weren't hiding it. 23 You went out and -- and hunted with it and you've told 24 us on a number of occasions you did that. You did it 25 both at Dudley's trailer and back in the -- in the
401 lakes. 2 A: Yeah, I've hunted there around the 3 lakes, yeah. 4 Q: And -- and you didn't hunt alone, did 5 you? You hunted with other people? 6 A: Sometimes I did, yeah. 7 Q: Yeah? 8 A: Sometimes I hunted alone. 9 Q: Didn't you mostly hunt with others? 10 A: Not all the time. 11 Q: I see, but mostly? 12 A: I can't really say how many times I 13 went hunting by myself and how many times I went hunting 14 with somebody else. 15 Q: And whether you went hunting alone or 16 with others, you -- you would -- you would get to the 17 place you were hunting on the Base by using a vehicle, 18 by driving? 19 A: Sometimes I walked. 20 Q: Yeah. When you were going down, for 21 instance, to the lakes down in the northern end you'd -- 22 you'd drive down there, wouldn't you? 23 A: Sometimes I'd walk. 24 Q: You'd walk? And sometimes you'd 25 drive.
411 A: Yeah. 2 Q: All right. And sometimes you'd walk 3 with others and sometimes you'd walk alone? 4 A: The only time I walked down there 5 with others is when they were running the bushes. 6 Q: What does "running the bushes" mean? 7 A: You were chasing the deer out of the 8 bush. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: You get about, maybe, three (3) to 11 five (5), six (6) maybe seven (7) guys to walk through 12 the bush -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- have a couple of shooters waiting 15 on the other side of the bush waiting for the deers to 16 come out. 17 Q: Okay. So you'd walk down there alone 18 from time to time, then, you're saying? 19 A: Yeah, I -- I'd walk all over the 20 place. Sometimes I'd walk by myself, sometimes I'd walk 21 with other people, you know? 22 Q: And you hunted -- what did -- and you 23 hunted at night as well as day, or? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Yeah. Did you hunt geese and ducks
421 at night? 2 A: I've been out hunting at night for 3 ducks -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- and geese. 6 Q: Yes, and is that when you'd use a 7 spotlight? 8 A: No. 9 Q: No? 10 A: No. 11 Q: I see. And they're not flying, of 12 course, at night? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: They are flying at night? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay, so you're hunting them at night 17 in the dark without a spotlight as they're flying over? 18 A: You can hear them at night, yeah. 19 I've been out hunting at night before. 20 Q: Okay. And you -- again, using your 21 sawed-off shotgun? 22 A: No. 23 Q: What were you using then? 24 A: Well, this was totally after, this 25 was just, like, fuck, I don't even know. Sorry. I
431 don't even know -- I don't even remember when it was, 2 but I've been -- I've been hunting at night before, but 3 it wasn't when I was living on the ranges. 4 Went hunting for deers. Sometimes I 5 could see geese flying in the air at night; you could 6 see them. 7 Q: Now you -- you bought this sawed-off 8 shotgun for hunting, that's what you've told us. 9 Why did you buy it for hunting rather 10 than something I take it you would be -- admit is more 11 effective, that is, a gun of a normal barrel length? 12 A: I didn't have no money. 13 Q: I see. It was simply a matter of 14 price; was it? 15 A: Pretty much, yeah. 16 Q: And this person that sold you the 17 sawed- off shotgun, was that person someone who had 18 other guns for sale? Did you ask him -- 19 A: That's the only one that I seen. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 21 already asked him -- 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: Did you ask about any other guns? 25 A: No.
441 Q: No. That was the only one you asked 2 -- or you didn't ask about any guns, you just bought 3 what he presented to you? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. Now we have -- I'm going to 6 show you the gun, we've got it here. I'm going to ask 7 you some questions about. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're sure 12 it's not loaded, are you, Mr. Roland? 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, I've -- I've been 14 asked that about three (3) times since -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 16 because I think we're all a little nervous. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- this very moment. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: None of us believe 19 his answer. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is 21 pointing right at me right now. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: For the purpose of the 23 record, we don't have this gun in evidence. It's not 24 been marked as an exhibit. The closest we have in 25 evidence is P-42(c) which is the photograph of it.
451 2 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 3 Q: And you've told us, Mr. George, that 4 you wrote the words -- it's actually -- it's been called 5 "Bastard Blaster," but actually the words are "Bastard 6 Blast," there's no "er" on it; right? Says "Bastard 7 Blast." 8 A: Yeah. Does it say "Bastard Blast"? 9 Q: Blast. It's been referred to as 10 Bastard Blaster but there actually -- there isn't an 11 "er" on "Blast." It's simply "Bastard Blast." 12 And that's in white -- it appears to be 13 some sort of white paint or polish. Do you remember -- 14 do you remember what you used? 15 A: I think it was white-out or 16 something. I can't remember. 17 Q: Sorry? 18 A: I think it was white-out or 19 something. 20 Q: Yes, it does actually -- it looks 21 like white-out. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm pointing out 23 to Mr. Roland that the picture does say "Blaster," 24 there's an "er." So evidently between the time of the 25 taking of the picture and the time Mr. Roland was
461 brandishing the gun, the "er" got erased. 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: That's if it is the 3 same weapon. That's if it is the same one. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Not the same one? 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Maybe it isn't, I 6 don't know. 7 THE WITNESS: It's been altered -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. -- 9 just hold on a second. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I've just put Exhibit 11 42(c) on the screen which is the photograph of the 12 weapon that was taken by the Ontario Provincial Police. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And it's 14 definitely -- it's got the "er" on the picture. 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, it's interesting. 16 It otherwise looks -- if you look at it and I ask. 17 Sorry, I'm going to go up and hand this to you, Mr. 18 Commissioner. 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Excuse me. The one - 20 - the exhibit on the -- which is shown for you to see, 21 seems to have tape on it, this one doesn't. There's 22 some question of whether or not they're the same piece 23 of equipment. 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: We can -- we can let 25 the Commissioner make a determination of this. I'm
471 thinking we might have to actually, at some stage, put 2 this in as an exhibit if there's an issue about it. And 3 it's certainly not operational, it appears, and it's not 4 loaded and do we -- we may want to mark this as Exhibit. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 6 see where we go. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: In fact I think we 8 probably should, given the controversy. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 OBJ MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 11 I have an objection. This gun has not shown to be 12 relevant to any of the issues of this Inquiry. It 13 wasn't shown to have been present, at all, on the 14 occasion that -- anything to do with September 4/5/6, 15 anything like that. 16 This is a gun that was found in a 17 dumpster somewhere. And to be -- there is such a thing 18 as collateral evidence rules and so on -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and we're 21 getting very, very far afield here. Now, Mr. Roland is 22 talking about introducing it as an Exhibit and he's 23 worried about the ER and so on. In my respectful 24 submission, he should be instructed to move on to 25 something relevant to this Inquiry.
481 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 2 sure that it's relevant or irrelevant yet. But, let's - 3 - let's move on a little bit. Yes, Mr. Henderson...? 4 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes, 5 Commissioner, I am not concerned, Mr. Ross, has already 6 pointed out that at the forward part, towards the 7 barrel, thee's tape that have the letters ER, that's 8 obviously been removed from the weapon Mr. Roland has. 9 Also tape at the lower left of the photograph where the 10 stock would ordinarily be, which has also been removed 11 from the weapon -- Mr. Roland has. 12 What's interesting, particularly, though 13 is not that these items have somewhere been removed, but 14 it appears that a trigger has been added. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The weapon 16 -- the actual weapon has a trigger, the photo does not 17 are which? 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there a 20 trigger in the weapon? 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner -- 22 this -- the weapon I hold in my hands has a serial 23 number, D -- I'm reading it -- D540065. It's the same 24 serial number that's shown in the Centre of Forensic 25 Science report that we've already had introduced, I
491 think through Mr. Thompson. That shows -- and it's the 2 same serial number. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: So, I don't think 5 there's any doubt about it. There may -- it may be that 6 and we'll have to inquire into it if it's important, but 7 the -- that there was an ER removed, although, it's hard 8 to tell looking at this that that could have happened, 9 but it appears to be by serial number, the same weapon. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well... 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Somewhere along the - 12 - as I understand it, Commissioner, this photograph 13 42(c) was taken of the weapon and I assume that from 14 what the Ontario Provincial Police told us that this is 15 the same weapon. 16 However, between the time, 42(c) was 17 taken, someone has removed what appears to be black tape 18 from this particular weapon and if you look at the 19 weapon, you can see that there was -- it would appear be 20 black tape on the barrel and also black tape on the end 21 of the weapon, and the Witness testified as well, that 22 when he had it, there was a stock on it. 23 But, this -- we got down this road 24 because Mr. Roland, his comments with respect to the ER, 25 someone has taken off, since the OPP took those
501 pictures, or the SIU took those pictures, taken off what 2 appears to be the tape. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And the ER 4 was on the tape, you can see if from the photo. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You can see it on the 6 picture, yes. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay. It was on the 8 tape. So the explanation for it, the paper is removed, I 9 guess that's it. Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, Mr. 11 Roland, we're back to the substantive question. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I think 14 your questions, so far have been relevant, but I'm not 15 sure where you're going from here. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I'm exploring 17 what this -- this -- I'm just going to carry on doing -- 18 getting some more information about this weapon. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 20 not sure how much more information about this weapon. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, if you bear with 22 me, Mr. Commissioner, I'll -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm trying 24 to -- let's bear with you but -- 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: I haven't had a chance
511 yet to ask any more questions about it. But, they're 2 all questions that arise directly out of the examination 3 the Commission Counsel. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 5 see where you're going with this. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 8 Q: So -- all right. So, it appears I 9 now understand why that ER is missing, because the ER 10 appears to been on some tape, it appears to have been 11 written on a tape and the tapes been removed which, of 12 course, then removes the ER. 13 I take it then the tape was on it -- on 14 the weapon when you put the word, bastard blaster, on it 15 because you wrote not only on the stock, the wooden 16 stock, but, also on the black tape that was over the 17 wooden stock at the end of it? Isn't that fair? 18 A: I can't -- I can't remember. It was 19 so long ago -- 20 Q: Well -- 21 A: -- but, I know -- I know the handle 22 part, I never put that tape around there because when I 23 had it, it had -- what was left of the wooden stock on 24 it. 25 Q: But I'm talking about the tape at
521 the other end, at the barrel end -- 2 A: Well, I -- 3 Q: -- which had the "ER" written on top 4 of the tape and isn't it fair to say, Mr. George, that 5 you having written bastard blaster -- 6 A: Yeah. Looks -- appears that way, 7 yeah. 8 Q: -- you wrote it on the tape and so 9 the tape was on that part of the -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- that part of the rifle when you 12 wrote that? 13 A: I guess so, yeah. 14 Q: Yes. 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Correction, it's not 16 a rifle. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry, shotgun. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 20 Q: My unfamiliarity with firearms is 21 showing. Let me then ask you about the words at the 22 very end of the barrel and it appears the words are 23 "kill and destroy". I can -- you've looked at it 24 already the other day and I -- you can look at it again, 25 if you like.
531 But it appears to have been -- those 2 words appear to be written at the very end of the barrel 3 and it appears by the same means, that is, by using 4 White Out. 5 A: I don't remember -- I can't even 6 remember what it -- 7 Q: I know you don't remember but -- 8 A: -- says. 9 Q: -- I'm asking you to confirm that it 10 appears to have been exactly the same means as the words 11 "bastard blaster", that is, with White Out. 12 A: Yeah, looks like it's White Out, 13 yeah. 14 Q: Yeah. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That tripod 19 makes it very difficult for Counsel to navigate the 20 podium. I guess we need that, do we? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We need 23 that tripod there? 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't
541 what to move but -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- That tripod picks 3 up the witness. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, okay. 5 THE WITNESS: It looks like words. I 6 don't -- honestly, I don't remember what was there. 7 There's something there, too, but I don't even remember 8 what that was, either. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 11 Q: Isn't it fair to say, Mr. George, 12 that it appears the same person who wrote the words 13 "bastard blaster" wrote the words on the end "kill 14 destroy"? 15 Doesn't it appear that way? 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Is he a 17 handwriting expert? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 19 THE WITNESS: There's writing on this 20 side, too, but I -- I don't know what that says. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's asking 22 him for a general observation that he can answer. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah, looks like the same 24 stuff. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't
551 know. He can't confirm it, but he can say what he 2 thinks. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The witness 7 has acknowledged some connection to this gun at some 8 point in time. So, some of these questions are 9 relevant. I just want to see where they're going. 10 THE WITNESS: I can't read that. Looks 11 like part of "destroy" or something. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 14 Q: It looks like the words "kill, 15 destroy", right? 16 A: Kill, destroy? Looks like the word 17 "kill them", part of the word "destroy", yeah. There's 18 some other stuff on there, too, I don't -- I don't 19 remember what it says. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Okay. What are you asking, anyways? 24 You wanted me to -- 25 Q: The question -- but my question is,
561 doesn't appear that the same person who wrote the words 2 "bastard blaster" wrote those words "kill, destroy". 3 It's using the same -- 4 A: I don't know. 5 Q: -- White Out, it appears and -- 6 A: Yeah, it looks like the same White 7 Out. 8 Q: -- and using capital letters, the 9 same as "bastard blaster"? 10 A: Yeah, it looks like that. 11 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, you've 12 told us that you -- you took the term "bastard blaster" 13 from a comic book. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Why did you, though, choose "bastard 16 blaster"? We know where it came from, but what was the 17 point you were trying to make by putting that on the 18 gun? 19 A: It sounded funny. 20 Q: What sounded funny about it to you? 21 A: It just sounded funny; bastard 22 blaster. 23 Q: Yeah? Was that because you thought 24 that it would be -- it could be used to blast bastards? 25 A: No.
571 Q: Well, then tell us what you thought 2 it was funny -- what's funny about it, because it sounds 3 like that's the meaning of the term -- 4 A: Well, it's -- 5 Q: -- something to bast blasters -- 6 bastards. 7 A: I took -- I took a shot at a fish 8 one time. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: Took a shot at a fish. I was 11 walking through the bush and I don't know, I think it 12 was on my birthday or something. I was walking through 13 the -- the bushes there and I was coming up this road 14 there and I walked -- got up to some water there and I 15 looked down in the water, I seen a fish, great big fish. 16 I didn't think I'd ever see one there, because you don't 17 normally see fish there. 18 But I was looking for something to eat, 19 yeah, so I took a shot at it, but I never got it. That 20 fish just took off and jumped through the bush. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: That's from -- there was puddles all 23 -- all over the place and that fish was just jumping. 24 So, that's kind of where it got it's name, too. 25 Q: I see. That -- you think of fish as
581 -- as bastards? 2 A: No, bass. 3 Q: Sorry? Bass? 4 A: Bass. 5 Q: Bass? Oh, that was the kind of fish? 6 Bass fish? 7 A: I think it was a bass. 8 Q: Okay. And -- and why did -- did -- 9 did you put the words "kill" and "destroy" on it? Can 10 you think of any reason why you did that? 11 OBJ MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No. Objection. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 13 Ross...? 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: There is no evidence 15 that he wrote "kill" and "destroy". So, to ask him -- 16 as a matter of fact you can ask him the clean question 17 whether or not he put "kill" and "destroy" -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- and take your 20 answer. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you're 22 right, Mr. Ross. He hasn't said that he put those words 23 on it. 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, he says the same 25 person likely did --
591 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It looks to 2 him like it might be the same person. That's a little 3 different, Mr. Roland. 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No, no, he did not 5 say that. He didn't even say that. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. He 9 doesn't say that he put those words on. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 12 Q: Would there be any reason why you'd 13 put those words on, if you did? 14 OBJ MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Object. No, no, no. 15 As a matter of fact, Mr. Roland, I -- excuse me please, 16 sir. 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 20 sure Mr. Roland knows better. He can ask the clean 21 question; he is just trying to go around and trying to 22 go through the back door that which is not allowed 23 through the front door. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Ask the straight
601 question. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 3 you're right, Mr. Ross. Go ahead, Mr. Roland. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 6 Q: Mr. George, looking at that now and 7 on reflection, isn't it evident that you likely put the 8 words "kill" and "destroy" on that? 9 A: I don't remember. 10 Q: You don't remember? 11 A: No. 12 Q: That's not the question. Is it 13 likely you did? 14 A: Is it likely that I did? 15 Q: Yes. Yes. 16 A: I can't say that. 17 Q: You can't say that? 18 A: I'm not sure. I don't remember 19 writing that stuff on it. It's a long time ago. I 20 can't even hardly read it, so I don't -- I don't even 21 know what was on it. 22 There's stuff all over this thing. I 23 can't read it. I write stuff all over, you know, my 24 car, I -- I draw. I'm an artist, I paint stuff on my 25 car. You -- you guys probably seen my cars.
611 Q: Certainly the words "kill" and 2 "destroy" aren't something you'd use to describe 3 hunting, I gather? 4 A: Killing and destroying? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Killing. But as far as destroying, 7 no. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: No. Now, you've told us that you and 12 Dudley George would spend time cruising around in 13 whatever vehicle you -- you had and -- 14 A: From time to time. 15 Q: Yes, and that was, I take it, 16 cruising around the base? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Because you -- what you were driving 19 mostly, I gather, were vehicles that weren't properly 20 licenced and therefore you had to keep them on the base 21 property itself; is that right? 22 A: Yes. Yeah, I think Dudley might have 23 had a -- or his girlfriend might have had a car or 24 something at one (1) time. 25 Q: All right. And you also told us that
621 part of your role as you saw it as a warrior, was to 2 observe; is that right? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And I gather, at least part of the 5 reason for you and Dudley cruising around the base was 6 to make observations -- to carry out your role as a -- 7 as a warrior? 8 A: Yeah, we seen stuff. 9 Q: Yeah. And what you were observing, I 10 take it, on the base -- and this is before July 29, 1995 11 -- what you were observing was others on the base? 12 A: Others? 13 Q: Other persons. 14 A: Yeah, there was other people on the 15 base. 16 Q: Yeah, and in particular, you've told 17 us that the military police would also regularly patrol 18 the base? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And I gather what you were doing is 21 driving around -- cruising around -- in whatever 22 vehicle's available, you and Dudley and perhaps time-to- 23 time with others, on your own patrol observing what was 24 going on and, in particular, observing the military 25 police?
631 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Is that fair? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you do that with others 5 apart from Dudley? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did others do it apart from you, 10 that is -- were others on patrol as well when you 11 weren't present, or do you know? 12 A: Probably yeah. 13 Q: Yeah. And did you have any, sort 14 of, amongst the occupiers and those that were -- were 15 observing the Military Police on the base, while on 16 patrol, any organized -- did you organize yourself in 17 any way to carry out your own patrols? 18 Was there any system that you brought to 19 bear on this, any kind of order or system in your 20 patrols? 21 A: Not right away. 22 Q: Okay. Well, tell us about that. 23 There wasn't right away, when did there become some 24 order or system to your patrols? 25 A: Probably after we took over the
641 base. 2 Q: After July 29th, '95? 3 A: About the only time we -- what we 4 did before that is -- there wasn't too many people 5 around, like to go out and do that. Well there was a 6 bunch of young guys, but, there was -- you know, we had 7 a truck I think a six (6) banger truck, res-bomb 8 (phonetic) truck and we just -- drove around the base. 9 Q: And you did that, I gather, before 10 July '95, both day and night? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you knew that the Army police, 13 the Military Police, were also patrolling day and night? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: I'm going to ask you about three (3) 19 incidents that are reported in the database, these are 20 incidents -- incidents that are reported by the various 21 Military Police, and I'm going to ask you whether you 22 recognize any of these incidents, all right? 23 These are incidents that occurred before, 24 obviously before July 29, '95, because the Military 25 Police were then still patrolling before that date?
651 You're with me? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. The first incident is, and 4 for My Friends assistance, it's document number 2003339, 5 it's a -- it's reported by a Sergeant Michael Blackburn 6 who was a Military Policeman, during that period, '93 to 7 '95, and he reports or gives -- talks about two (2) 8 incidents. 9 One (1) there was a -- he was on range 10 patrol in the training area. And he says that his 11 vehicle was chased by a 4 x 4 full size Blazer. I'm 12 stopping there. Do you recognize the vehicle that he 13 describes, a 4 x 4 full-size Blazer, as a vehicle that 14 was available to you and to others? 15 A: I don't remember them driving a 16 Blazer. 17 Q: You don't remember yourself driving 18 a Blazer? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Do you recognize the vehicle as one 21 (1) that was available? 22 A: Available to everybody? 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Or do you recognize the vehicle at
661 all, that there was a 4 x 4 full size Blazer? 2 A: I know my cousin had a Blazer. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: But he never let anybody drive it, 5 it was his own personal vehicle. 6 Q: All right. And his statement is 7 that Dudley was an occupant in the Blazer and that there 8 was a gun in the vehicle. Now, do you recall that 9 incident, at all, were you an occupant in that vehicle? 10 A: I don't remember being in that 11 Blazer with Dudley and Marlin. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: I don't think I ever -- I don't 14 think I ever drove in that Blazer. 15 Q: All right. He talks about another 16 instance involving the ramming of a patrol car. He was 17 watching Officers in the patrol car following a brown 18 pick-up which was on the Parade Square. 19 The pickup started driving in a crazy -- 20 around the building and rammed the patrol car. The 21 whole side of the vehicle was smashed, but, there were 22 no injuries to the Officers. 23 A: A brown pickup? 24 Q: Yeah, a brown pickup that rammed the 25 patrol car, it appears on the parade square.
671 Do you remember that incident? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You weren't present -- you were not 4 present during that incident? 5 A: A brown pickup rammed a -- 6 Q: A patrol car? 7 A: Yeah -- 8 Q: On the parade square? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Do you remember any incident in 11 which a vehicle driven by the occupiers, rammed a patrol 12 car on the parade square, or in the vicinity of the 13 parade square? 14 A: I heard the bus got -- somebody got 15 rammed by a bus or something, a jeep or something, 16 that's about all I heard, anybody ramming anybody. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: All right. I am going to next take 21 you to an incident described by Corporal Gallant, the 22 document is 2003504. And this is what he describes as a 23 night time patrol incident that occurred to this 24 Military Police Officer at night time. 25 And it was sometime around April '95. He
681 says: 2 "We were doing range patrol, it was the 3 last patrol of the night, it was around 4 10:00 or 10:30 p.m., as we approached a 5 Y in the road, we observed a car parked 6 in the bushes. We could only see the 7 dome light of the vehicle. I was with 8 Warrant Officer Martin on this patrol. 9 As we passed them, they pulled in 10 behind us and followed us closely with 11 no headlights on. Then they backed off 12 a bit and turned their headlights on. 13 Then they shut off their lights again 14 and pulled right up close behind us, as 15 we were approaching the stop sign, we 16 heard a gunshot. I kind of -- not just 17 heard, but, kind of felt it too. I 18 thought for sure we'd been hit. But we 19 were okay, we veered right, we were 20 near the exit to the MNR near the 21 provincial Park." 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 23 do you want to say something? 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm not -- perhaps My 25 Friend is nearly done, but, I think that My Friend, can
691 ask the witness about the facts that he wishes to ask 2 him about. 3 In my view, he shouldn't be reading these 4 documents that the witness is not the author of, that 5 were made two (2) years after the -- or more after the 6 events. 7 If My Friend wishes to put the facts to 8 him, that's fair enough. But -- at least on this 9 instance, but, to read the document to him, I just don't 10 think he should and I don't think it's appropriate. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 12 Roland...? 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 14 trying to put the incident accurately -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes -- 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- I can paraphrase, 17 but, it's not as accurate. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 19 understand that. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: And so to -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've read 22 it now, so it's in the record, you've read the document. 23 Does he know anything about it? 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
701 Q: Is that an incident that you recall? 2 A: I don't recall anything to do with 3 that. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Move on. 5 You've mentioned there were three (3) of these and I'm 6 sure you're doing this to be fair, and there is one (1) 7 more, and after you've done this one, we'll take our 8 morning break. 9 If you can put it in a general way, 10 without being inaccurate, it would be preferable. If 11 you can't, and you think it's necessary to be specific, 12 to be fair, then you have to do it that way. 13 Other Counsel have objections? 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No, just for clarity 15 please, Mr. Commissioner, My Learned Friend says he's 16 putting three (3) incidents. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And I think this is 19 the third one. Am I correct -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no, the 21 first one was broken into two (2) parts, Mr. Ross. 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Oh, I see. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So he's on 24 the second, he's now on his third incident. The first 25 one (1) I've marked as an a) and a b), so we're now on
711 the third incident. Yes, Mr. Henderson...? 2 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Yes, Commissioner, 3 I just wanted to make a point with respect to the use of 4 the word "accuracy." I appreciate that you too used it, 5 sir, and that Mr. Roland has referring to these 6 documents on the basis that he wishes to be accurate. 7 There's absolutely no evidence that 8 whatever is in those documents is accurate, or that the 9 creators of those documents will ever be in front of 10 this Commission to vouch for that accuracy. 11 So there is a set of facts -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There are 13 degrees of accuracy. At least reading from them would 14 be a little more accurate than paraphrasing them. But, 15 you're right, they haven't yet been established. 16 Anything -- 17 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: No, not -- not 18 tested at all, nor is there any, you know, obvious 19 intent that they ever will be. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps 21 calling them accurate is too high a characterization, 22 but -- 23 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Thank you, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- they're 25 certainly more accurate --
721 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm not saying that 2 these facts themselves are accurately described, what 3 I'm doing is accurately reading from the document. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 5 understand, Mr. Roland, why don't we deal with the third 6 one (1) and move on now, if you're just raising more 7 objections. 8 Yes, Mr. Horton...? 9 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Your Honour, just 10 consistently with some submissions I've made previously, 11 I'd just like to place this very briefly on the record. 12 Either the witness does or does not know 13 about an incident. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 15 right. 16 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: The incident can be 17 stated to the witness. If he doesn't know anything 18 about it, that really should be the end of it. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 20 happened. 21 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: And in my 22 submission, that's the most efficient way to do it. But 23 what Mr. Roland is consistently doing, and -- and he's 24 back at it now, is he's putting evidence in the record - 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
731 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- that is not yet 2 in the record, and he's putting it in a way that avoids 3 potentially, having to call these witnesses at a later 4 time. And I just -- my position very simply is that no 5 useful purpose is served by anticipating evidence that 6 is not yet called. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: And that the 9 simplest and most fair way to do this is to put it to 10 the witness, because otherwise -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 12 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- we do open the 13 door -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- on other 16 witnesses being examined the same way, to say -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 18 understand that. 19 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- to be -- to be 20 perfectly fair and accurate with this witness, I'd like 21 to read some transcripts that are not yet in the -- in 22 the record, for example. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 24 understand, we're very concerned about that, I think, 25 Mr. Horton --
741 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- as well. 3 Now you've got one (1) last incident. If you put the 4 incident to him, see if he knows anything about it, and 5 you've been fair to the witness and we can move on. 6 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: It's a -- it's a 7 reference to evidence that he anticipates will be given 8 by other witnesses -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: May or may 10 not be. 11 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- that I think is 12 the problem. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 14 right. Okay, Mr. Roland, what's the third incident, if 15 you want to -- 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, this is -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- ask him 18 about. 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- another early 20 morning incident at 2:00 a.m., and it involved two (2) - 21 - oh, the doc -- My Friend asked for the document 22 number, it's 2003813. 23 It involves two (2) Military Police 24 Officers driving in a marked unit, when they say they 25 were run off the road, went into the ditch on the east
751 side of the road going north, we don't know which road 2 going north, but we know which roads we -- there are 3 several roads I guess that go north and south. But on 4 one (1) of the north/south roads, they went into the 5 ditch on the east side of the road, rolled a couple of 6 times, and the car was written off. 7 So they say they were run off the road. 8 And then -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When was 10 this supposed to have occurred? 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: This -- this occurred 12 at 2:00 a.m. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What day, 14 what month, what year? 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well the -- the -- it 16 would have been after July 1994, and before July 29, 17 1995, in that one (1) year period, the statement doesn't 18 say where in the period, what day. It was 2:00 a.m., 19 and what the statement has it that the officers had -- 20 their car was written off. 21 The -- the car that ran them off the 22 road, came up from behind them, pulled alongside, then 23 rammed them and sent them off the highway. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 25 to ask him if he knows anything about that?
761 MR. IAN ROLAND: Do you know anything 2 about that? 3 JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN: The answer is 4 no. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: Did you hear anything about that? 8 A: No, no. 9 Q: You heard nothing about that? 10 A: Absolutely nothing. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay, Mr. Commissioner, 12 we can take the morning break. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much, Mr. Roland. Thank you. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 16 for fifteen (15) minutes. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 11:44 a.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 12:00 p.m. 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 22 Roland. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 25 Q: Mr. George, I'm going to take you to
771 a time period about a week or two (2) weeks before the 2 Labour Day weekend of September 4. 3 So, about two (2) weeks earlier, and 4 you're living in the barracks, as are other occupiers, 5 and at that stage I think you told us you were living on 6 the -- along Highway 21, sort of at the east end of the 7 barracks? 8 A: Yes, the last house on the left. 9 Q: "Last house on the left." 10 And I gather that you hadn't -- you've 11 told us you hadn't moved your guns, the 22 and the sawed 12 off shotgun from your grandfather's cabin or trailer, 13 into the barracks, you'd left them there? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: But I gather you -- you saw other 16 guns, others had moved their guns into the barracks? 17 A: I didn't see no guns. 18 Q: You didn't see any guns? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did -- did you not see any guns in 21 the barracks at all, for the period of time from July 22 29, until September 4? 23 A: I didn't see anything, I didn't -- 24 Q: No. 25 A: -- see no -- no guns.
781 Q: Did you visit others in the barracks 2 and -- and their -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- residences? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: You did? 7 A: I visited a few people. 8 Q: All right. And do you recognize 9 someone described as a male person, tall, light coloured 10 hair, light blonde with grey in it? Tall, light blonde 11 coloured hair -- 12 A: Tall -- tall guy with blonde hair, 13 with grey in it? 14 Q: With some grey in it? 15 JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 16 didn't hear you, Mr. Roland, what was that last -- 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- what was 19 the last thing you -- 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: With grey in the hair. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: With 22 greying hair, right. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
791 Q: Recognize anybody like that? 2 A: Tall blonde guy with grey -- 3 Q: Didn't -- and didn't look native. 4 A: Didn't look native. 5 Q: Living in the barracks? 6 A: Living in the barracks? 7 Q: Yes? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: I don't remember anybody with blonde 12 hair and with grey hair in it. 13 Q: Okay -- 14 A: A tall guy, living in the barracks. 15 Q: -- how about someone who's about 16 five/ten (5/10), heavy pock mark face with long brown 17 hair with some grey at the temples? 18 A: Well that could be anybody I guess. 19 Q: Certainly not you. 20 A: I don't know, I guess not. Is my 21 face pock marked? 22 Q: No, not that I can see. 23 A: I -- 24 Q: You don't recognize that person 25 either?
801 A: It could be anybody. 2 Q: See, there's -- there's someone -- 3 someone who visited the camp, a non-occupier, who said 4 in the weekend or two (2) before the Labour Day -- 5 Labour Day weekend in '95, he visited the camp and 6 because he worked there back in '68/71, to show his 7 family the camp, and he was met at the gate by someone 8 described as five/ten (5/10), heavy pock marked face, 9 long brown -- blonde hair with grey at temples -- brown 10 hair. 11 Long brown hair, with grey at temples, 12 and he -- that person went to a building towards Highway 13 21, that is the person who just -- I've just described, 14 and the individual who was visiting, followed him to the 15 building, looked inside the building as the -- as the 16 person who preceded him went in the building, he looked 17 in the build -- in the doorway, and he saw two (2) 18 people, a dark haired male, and someone he described as 19 tall, light coloured hair, like blonde/grey -- with grey 20 in it, who didn't look native, and he said he saw about 21 six (6) or more long guns, rifles and sporting -- 22 sporting and hunting rifles against the wall and on the 23 table? 24 A: Don't know nothing about that. 25 Q: You know nothing about that?
811 A: No. 2 Q: All right. And I gather what your - 3 - you tell us today, is that -- that would surprise you, 4 would it, that there were those number of guns -- 5 A: Well, I never -- I have no knowledge 6 of -- 7 Q: No knowledge? 8 A: -- anything like that. 9 Q: Would it -- would it surprise you or 10 not, was there any -- was there anything about the 11 occupation of the barracks in that time, that -- that 12 would make that surprising, to find those guns there? 13 A: Well, I don't know, I never seen no 14 guns, so I can't say if I was surprised or not. 15 Q: All right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Now, you've told us that you and 20 others, because you said "we", drove into the built up 21 area of the barracks before July '95 and "we drove 22 around checking the place out". Those were your words. 23 And you were chased out. Now, I take it 24 you were chased out by the military personnel occupying 25 the barracks, is that right?
821 A: Yeah. They would try and chase us 2 out, yeah. 3 Q: And why did you drive -- what were 4 you checking out? 5 Why did you drive in the built up area? 6 What -- what was the purpose of checking it out? 7 A: 'Cause that was our land. 8 Q: I see. So I take it what you were 9 really doing is asserting ownership of that barracks by 10 driving around in it? 11 A: Yeah, I guess. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: We were checking things out, too. 14 Q: When you say "things" what things? 15 A: Buildings, roads, you know. See 16 what the place looks like. 17 Q: Yeah but you knew what the place 18 looked like, didn't you? You'd been a cadet there? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: Well I wanted to see it again. 22 Q: I see. And isn't it so, Mr. George, 23 that what you were really doing is provoking the 24 military to see if you could provoke them into some 25 reaction?
831 A: They would -- they would follow us, 2 but they wouldn't -- they wouldn't get out of their cars 3 or nothing. They'd shine us with their lights. It's 4 about it. 5 Q: Yeah. But this was -- wasn't it so 6 that really the purpose was to provoke them to see what 7 they'd do? 8 A: No. 9 Q: That wasn't the purpose? No? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Now, you've told us that there were 12 military police observation posts and one you've put at 13 Building 44 which on the -- which I think is the -- I 14 think it's the furthest east building along Highway 21, 15 was that where the ob. -- the military observation post 16 was? 17 A: Yeah, that'd be the -- the place I 18 was living in. 19 Q: And that had -- before you had moved 20 in there and before July 29, '95 it was an observation 21 post? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And how did you know it was an 24 observation post? 25 What -- what informed you that it was an
841 observation post? 2 A: Because the one -- the north wall on 3 one of the rooms on the second floor had a great big 4 hole in it, like it -- I don't know, they must have just 5 smashed it out with something and there was a big piece 6 of plexiglass over top of it. 7 It was all raggedy looking and we knew 8 they were sitting up there looking through that 9 plexiglass at us, 'cause they couldn't see it on the 10 road 'cause there was a road beside there. 11 And it was the road leading to the tank 12 range. 13 Q: Sorry, leading to the where? 14 A: Tank range. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: And we used to go down that road to 17 get to the other side 'cause if we went through that 18 barracks there they'd probably -- well, we didn't go 19 through the barracks too much, but we used that Army 20 Tank Range road there, most of the time. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Yeah, it would be over right about 23 here. This road here goes straight then it turns left 24 and the tank range is up in this area here. 25 Q: Yes. And so the building you're
851 pointing out, I think you said is Building -- 2 A: That's 44. 3 Q: --44? Yes. And I take it that 4 observation post allowed -- with the plexiglass window 5 that was created on the second floor, allowed the 6 persons using it to observe both in a northerly 7 direction -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- and in an easterly direction? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Because they also had windows on the 12 eastern side of the building. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: And the MPs were -- yeah, the MPs -- 16 the MP shack was right there, so they could walk right 17 to the corner there. They didn't have to walk very far. 18 Q: I can't read the number of -- can 19 you read the number below the building you've just 20 indicated? 21 A: It looks like 45. 22 Q: Okay, so you've indicated a building 23 just north of Building 45 that runs -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- in an east-west direction?
861 A: The whole building there is one -- 2 one building. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: I mean that was their MP shack right 5 here. 6 Q: Now, am I correct, Mr. George, 7 there's also an observation tower at a location near the 8 water tower? 9 A: An observation tower? 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: There's a repelling tower. That's - 12 - that must be that building right there. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Actually that must be the water 15 tower but the observation building's right -- or the -- 16 the repelling tower's right here. 17 Q: And was -- was that used by the 18 military as an observation tower? 19 A: I don't think so. Right. 20 Q: What other observation posts or 21 towers did the military have, in the period that you 22 were on the base, but before you occupied the barracks? 23 A: They had one (1) on the fire -- or 24 the fire building there, where they kept the fire 25 trucks, actually it's right there.
871 Q: And can you read the number? 2 A: I can't see it. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Nineteen (19). 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you, we -- we 5 determined that's building 19, thank you. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know if they were 7 up there though, but there's that big tower there, but I 8 don't know if they sat in that. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, if I 13 might, just for the record, because I've been asked, and 14 I could ask My Friends as well, Mr. Roland has been 15 doing it, but just for the record, the document that's 16 on the screen now is 2002436, page 35. I want to make 17 sure that we catch that. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is to 19 complete the transcript? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And it's also -- 21 yeah, it's also Exhibit P-41. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: Exhibit P-41. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
881 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: Let me turn if I could, Mr. George, 3 now to the Warrior Society, to better understand the 4 Warrior Society. 5 And to begin with, I see you're today 6 wearing a -- a t-shirt with an emblem on the front of 7 it, and is that one (1) of the Warrior Society? 8 A: That's a -- the Unity Flag. 9 Q: I see, and what's that? 10 A: It's -- it's like your Canadian 11 Flag. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: But it's ours, this is our -- our 14 flag, and we -- 15 Q: When you say our, who do you mean? 16 A: Annishnaabe people everywhere. 17 Q: I see. And did you design it? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No? 20 A: Lewis Hall (phonetic). 21 Q: Okay. And is it -- does it 22 represent your Warrior Society? 23 A: No, we just -- we just fly our -- we 24 just fly it -- 25 Q: I see.
891 A: It's the Unity Flag. 2 Q: Okay. The reason I ask is that it - 3 - it very much resembles the symbol or flag or emblem of 4 the Mohawk Warrior Society, which I was able to get off 5 the Internet, both in colour and in style and design. 6 A: There's a few different variations. 7 But, yeah, the designer's Lewis Hall, and that's what he 8 said that he -- this is the Unity Flag. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: He made it for all the people of 11 Turtle Island to -- to fly. 12 Q: I see. And he modelled it, it 13 appears, after the Mohawk Warrior Flag? 14 A: Pardon? 15 Q: He appears to have modelled it after 16 the Mohawk Warrior Society emblem or flag? 17 A: I'm not sure. I don't know if he 18 modelled it after, I think he's the one who -- who made 19 it. 20 Q: For the Mohawk Society -- 21 A: For everybody. 22 Q: -- as well? 23 A: No, I don't think he made it just 24 for the Mohawk Warrior Society. 25 Q: All right. Well --
901 A: He made it for everybody. 2 Q: -- what I've presented to you is 3 what -- which at least the Internet tells us, to the 4 extent that the Internet's accurate, by the Mohawk 5 Warrior Society, that this is their emblem of the Mohawk 6 Warrior Society, that I put before you, that seems to 7 very closely resemble the design on your t-shirt? 8 A: I think there might be several 9 different variations of this, they might have one (1) 10 for themselves that might be different than -- than 11 this. 12 Q: I see. 13 A: More personalized, I'm not sure, but 14 I know there's a few different kinds around. But that's 15 what the -- the creator of this flag made it as a Unity 16 Flag to unit our peoples. 17 Q: All right. In any event, as I 18 understand it, you and others met at Stoney Point, 19 indeed, met at your camp at Stoney Point on Friday, 20 August 13, 1993, to form the Stoney Point Warrior 21 Society. 22 Do you recall that meeting? 23 A: I'm not sure about the date, but, 24 yeah, I remember having a meeting, yeah -- 25 Q: Yes.
911 A: -- talking about it. 2 Q: Let me, if I could, provide you with 3 -- this is document number 2002504, which appear to be 4 the minutes of the first meeting of the Stoney Point 5 Warrior Society. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Where's you guys get those minutes 10 anyways, if I might ask? 11 Q: Well, it's in the database, I -- I 12 don't know, it was provided by the Commission from 13 productions, and I don't know where it come -- it came - 14 - we found it in the database. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 16 minute. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, I was just wondering 18 if that was what was taken by those police when they 19 come in there, because they were taking documents, and 20 this is one (1) of them. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: I have no idea. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: Here's a -- we're putting a hard 25 copy in front of you for your ease of reference. And it
921 indicates, you'll see, that the meeting occurred -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps My Friend 3 could let the witness take a moment to read it. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sure. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this the 9 first time we're looking at this document? It's not an 10 exhibit yet by any means? No. It's 2002504, is that 11 the number? 12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 15 Q: Does that help you recall the 16 meeting, Mr. George? 17 A: Yeah, a little bit, yeah. 18 Q: And it appears to have been at your 19 camp? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And it sets out the people who were 22 present? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And it indicates that Lorne Jacobs 25 was the advisor?
931 A: Yes. 2 Q: And first of all, what was the role 3 -- what did you understand was the role of the advisor? 4 A: He's our medicine man. 5 Q: I see. And what does that mean in 6 terms of advisor, what -- what was he assisting you 7 with? 8 Or advising you about? 9 A: Everything about us, about who we 10 are, where we come from, everything, our ceremonies. 11 The fire, keeping the fire, and about honouring the 12 trees, when you -- before you cut them down you've got 13 to give your tobacco. 14 He advised us along those lines for -- 15 there's not -- not everybody knew too much about that 16 kind of stuff. 17 Q: And tell me about Lorne Jacobs, 18 where's he from? 19 A: I think he's from Buck Town, 20 Meridian (phonetic) Town. 21 Q: And is he a -- is he a Chippewa, or 22 what nation is he? 23 A: Delaware. 24 Q: Delaware? 25 A: Yeah.
941 Q: Okay. 2 A: Monape (phonetic). 3 Q: And how about Ed Stephens 4 (phonetic), he's shown as Eagle, what does that mean? 5 A: I'm not sure what that means. Oh, I 6 think that might be his name, his -- maybe his mom and 7 dad married some -- or his mom married somebody else, 8 you know, like the same with that -- Dale George has got 9 plain beside his name. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Plain is his father's last name -- 12 Q: I see. 13 A: -- and George is his mother's last 14 name. So I'm not sure what the Eagle meant but that's 15 probably what his last name before it was Stevens or 16 something. 17 Q: And of these -- these twelve (12) 18 people, you'll see there's two (2) columns of names 19 totalling twelve (12) people. Which one of these 20 persons -- you've already told us who is Lorne Jacobs 21 is, was not part of the -- is not part of Kettle or 22 Stoney Point? 23 A: I guess everybody. 24 Q: They're all -- they're all part of 25 Kettle or Stoney Point?
951 A: Well, we're not part of Kettle and 2 Stony Point. We're from Stoney Point. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Not from Kettle Point. 5 Q: Was there anybody there that's not-- 6 A: Is not from Stoney Point? 7 Q: Not from Stoney Point? 8 A: No, everybody's from Stoney Point. 9 Q: All right. And then you'll see 10 there's another list of eight(8) names of persons who 11 suggested, although not present, should be informed of 12 these -- formation of the Stoney Point Warrior Society, 13 is it fair to assume, in order that they may join the 14 Society as well? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did those persons join the 17 Society? 18 A: I guess so. We were just all the 19 young people kind of got together at first so -- and we 20 kind of followed it right up to when we walked into the 21 barracks there and things kind of changed there because 22 of all the more people coming in there. Everything was 23 kind of restructured I guess. 24 Q: All right. And so this -- when you 25 -- you say when you went into the barracks it
961 restructured, but this was from August '93 for the next 2 two (2) years until July '95, you're living in the Base, 3 not in the barracks. 4 And these people then join the Warrior 5 Society and did it continue to exist and have an ongoing 6 life as the Warrior Society? 7 A: Yeah, somewhat. There's some people 8 that left and more people -- different people come 9 around but some people left, yeah. But the base -- the 10 basic group of people, the hard cores I guess, they 11 stuck together and followed it through. 12 Q: All right. And I'm looking at the 13 eight (8) names that are suggested to join and you say 14 did join, are any of those persons not from Stoney 15 Point? 16 A: In the second set, no. Everybody's 17 from Stoney Point except Lorne, he's from Bucktown. 18 Q: Okay. Now you'll see in the text 19 below it speaks of the Declaration for First Nations, 20 our Constitution was distributed and read. We haven't 21 seen that document. Do you have that document? The 22 Declaration for First Nations? 23 A: No. I don't have it. 24 Q: Do you know where it would be found? 25 A: Marcia Simon would have a copy of
971 it. 2 Q: And were minutes of this Warrior 3 Society then kept as it met, amongst its members? 4 A: Was it kept amongst these members? 5 Q: Yeah. Did -- did these members of 6 the Warrior Society as it -- as you say the membership 7 evolved over time, did it keep -- did the Society keep 8 minutes? 9 A: No. Not all the time. 10 Q: Did it keep some minutes? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And who kept the minutes? 13 A: It says here my sister Tanille 14 George was recording the minutes. 15 Q: She recorded these minutes. Did 16 Tanille record minutes of subsequent meetings as they 17 occurred? 18 A: Maybe a couple, yeah. 19 Q: And did anybody else record minutes? 20 A: I'm not sure. 21 Q: All right. And finally, did you 22 meet on a regular basis as a Warrior Society? 23 A: For a while, yeah, we met on a 24 regular basis, just talking about stuff. Organizing a 25 birthday party, getting wood. We had a wood cutting
981 bee. I think there was another bee to fix the arbour on 2 the sacred fire. 3 Stuff like that and -- you know. Taking 4 care of the people. 5 Q: All right. And you'll see also in 6 the second to last paragraph that you: 7 "We have decided on this Warrior 8 Society to help one another and to care 9 for the Elders when they need help and 10 to continue the struggle for 11 Aazhoodena." 12 Now what did you do to continue the 13 struggle as a warrior society for Aazhoodena? 14 A: We stayed on the land. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: And we kept it. We -- well if none 17 of us stuck around, there probably wouldn't be nothing 18 there now. Army'd still be there. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: So, yeah. We occupied it. 21 Q: And you've told us as we've heard 22 earlier this morning, you conducted regular observations 23 and patrols? 24 A: Somewhat, yeah. 25 Q: Yes.
991 A: When we had the gas to. 2 Q: I'm sorry? 3 A: When we had enough gas to. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: We'll mark the -- the document that 8 has -- hard copy of the document as a -- as an exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-69, Your Honour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-69? 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: We'll mark it in due 12 course. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-69: Document Number 2002504, 15 Minutes of first meeting of 16 Aazhoodena Stoney Point 17 Warriors Society, August 18 13th, 1993. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 21 Q: Now, let me ask you about the 22 organization of the Warrior Society from August '93 on. 23 Did you, in your structure, have a leader or leaders? 24 A: Not really. Just Lorne Jacobs. We 25 talk -- we looked up to him because he told -- he had a
1001 lot of good knowledge for us; that's who we looked up 2 to. Marcia. She had a lot of knowledge too. 3 That's pretty much it, I guess. I don't 4 know if you'd call them leaders but they're just people 5 we looked up to. 6 Q: I see. Well, for example, in terms 7 of deciding whether there was a meeting to be called, or 8 whether you were going to under -- undertake some 9 activity. Do you have someone who was -- who was 10 leading the group of Warrior Society members to -- to 11 decide or move to a decision on what to do? 12 A: No, we pretty much done it 13 consensus. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: Everybody put their two (2) cents in 16 and we decided from there. It was an agreement upon 17 everybody. 18 Q: Was Lorne Jacobs then living in the 19 Base? 20 A: Yeah I guess he was -- he had a 21 trailer there. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: He wasn't there all the time, 24 though. He only stayed for maybe -- maybe the summer. 25
1011 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I think he went to school up in 4 Lakehead University or something like that. He had to 5 go to school, so he had to leave. 6 Q: Now, once the Warrior Society had 7 been created, did you seek out -- any of you seek out or 8 did you have offered to you any assistance from other 9 Warrior Societies? 10 A: No. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Did you have any contact or 15 interaction with any other Warrior Societies? 16 A: There was people that come down, 17 supporters. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: I'm not sure if they were in any 20 kind of Warrior Society or not or whatever. I -- I 21 never asked their credentials. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: In particular, in about -- in around
1021 March of 1994, did you receive offers from the Mohawk 2 Warrior Society to assist you? 3 A: In '94? 4 Q: Yeah. Near about March '94? 5 A: I'm not too sure. I don't -- I 6 don't think so. I remember Chief -- he -- he wrote a 7 letter to the people about to -- like other Nations, he 8 wrote a letter to those that -- I think he was letting 9 them know what was going on, that's about all. 10 Q: And when you say Chief, who do you 11 mean? 12 A: Carl, Carl George. 13 Q: All right. We understand from the 14 evidence that I think you and others have given, that 15 Maynard T. George was the Chief at the time -- 16 A: Yeah, there was -- 17 Q: -- that they first occupied the 18 Base, -- 19 A: -- Maynard -- 20 Q: -- in 1993, and then in 1994 21 sometime, Carl George took over as Chief? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And then I think you had indicated 24 earlier that early in 1995, there was no Chief? 25 A: Yeah.
1031 Q: That -- that there was a -- there 2 was at least a leadership vacuum to that extent in early 3 '95? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And although there was no Chief in 6 early 1995, who took on the task of -- of leading your 7 group? Of giving some direction and leadership to your 8 group? If not elected as Chief, who defacto helped you 9 organize yourself and lead your group? 10 A: I think it was just everybody, the 11 people that -- what everybody wanted. 12 Q: How did that work? How did you get 13 a consensus of people? Did someone bring you together 14 in a group? 15 A: We used to have a meeting, yeah, we 16 used to have meetings in the Argument Hall. We'd talk 17 about stuff and I think, but it was mostly on consensus, 18 like everybody would put in their two (2) cents. 19 Q: All right. And before the 20 occupation of the barracks, in July of '95, I take it 21 the group met to make a decision about occupying the 22 barracks? 23 A: I wasn't there when they -- they 24 walked in, I was there, I showed up about half an hour 25 later or something, and while I wasn't there, everybody
1041 was already in there. I don't know if they had a 2 meeting or not. 3 Q: So you don't know whether there was 4 a meeting before that? 5 A: No, I'm not sure. I wasn't there. 6 Q: Marlin Simons testified that the 7 Oneida Long House was contacted in early 1995 for advice 8 on plans to take over the barracks; do you remember 9 that? 10 A: No. 11 Q: No? And so as far as you know, 12 there was no kind of organizational decision at all to 13 take over the barracks? 14 A: No -- 15 Q: It just happened? 16 A: We'd talk about it, but you know, 17 there -- I wasn't at the meeting, or -- if there was a 18 meeting before we walked in. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: Because I wasn't there. 21 Q: It appears there was some planning 22 to taking over the barracks, which shows organization, 23 that is, we've already heard that the -- the bus was 24 used as a diversion, so that others could gain entry to 25 the barracks from another location?
1051 A: I wasn't there. 2 Q: You weren't -- you don't know 3 anything about that? 4 A: No, I wasn't there. I was late. 5 Q: All right then. We also heard from 6 Marlin Simons that there was a big meeting down at the 7 Lake before the Park -- before taking over the Park. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: You said there was a meeting? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Before we took over the Park? 14 Q: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You were 16 just asking about the barracks a minute ago, you -- 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: I was, I moved to the 18 Park. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You moved 20 on to the Park, yes, that's fine. 21 THE WITNESS: Hmm, I can't remember. We 22 had meetings, we had lots of meetings, I can't remember. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 25 Q: And you've told us that when you
1061 took over the Park, you and others took over the Park, 2 you drove your vehicle as one (1) of four (4) or five 3 (5) vehicles down to the Park, to the east side of the 4 Park? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And that leads one (1) to conclude 7 there was some organization that you weren't alone, you 8 were with others? 9 A: In the Park, yeah, I was with a few 10 people. 11 Q: Well, no, moving down. You got in 12 your -- you got your vehicle, others got their vehicles 13 and as a kind of convoy you went down to the Park on 14 September the 4th, you've told us, to the east side of 15 the Park. That is there was -- appeared to be some 16 organization to this? 17 A: Well, I don't know, there was people 18 all over the place. They probably converged on the same 19 spot at the same time, but as far as a convoy, I don't 20 recall any convoy. 21 Q: You don't remember. Well, you said 22 the cars went down together, I've used the term convoy? 23 A: There might have been a few cars 24 that went down, yeah -- 25 Q: Yes.
1071 A: -- but most of the people were kind 2 of probably already down there. 3 Q: Well, as I understand it, when the 4 Park was occupied on September the 4th, one (1) group of 5 which you were a member, were at the east side of the 6 Park with your cars, and another group were on the west 7 side of the Park. And that you -- you occupied the Park 8 from both sides, is that right? 9 A: Both sides? 10 Q: Yeah, like you went in, in two (2) 11 different entrances? 12 A: I think we only went in the one (1) 13 entrance to the east. 14 Q: I see. 15 A: I don't remember seeing any other 16 entrances opened up until later. 17 Q: Okay, I -- I stand corrected. I 18 thought that's what had occurred. 19 And so are you saying that then this was 20 simply some kind of spontaneous thing that occurred -- 21 A: No, we -- we -- 22 Q: -- on September 4th? 23 A: -- talked about it. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: But I can't remember any specific
1081 meeting, but we would talk about it. 2 Q: All right. All right, once you got 3 into the Park though, you organized yourself -- selves, 4 didn't you? 5 A: I don't know. 6 Q: Certain persons were assigned 7 different responsibilities and tasks, for instance, 8 there were certain persons were assigned responsibility 9 to staff, or man, if they were all men, observation 10 posts? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Because Marlin Simons told us that 13 there were observation posts, a number of them around 14 the Park, and that people were assigned to those 15 observation posts as soon as you occupied the Park? 16 A: I don't know, I wasn't at no 17 observation post. 18 Q: And you didn't know anything about 19 that, you're saying? 20 A: Alls I remember is walking in the -- 21 the fence and seeing those cops and then we walked 22 towards the maintenance shed, towards that way, towards 23 the west side. 24 Q: Sorry, you may misunderstand me, Mr. 25 George, I'm talking after you've occupied, you and your
1091 -- your fellow occupiers have taken over the -- 2 physically taken over the Park, as I understand it from 3 Marlin Simons' evidence, there was then some 4 organization brought to bear on this occupation, by 5 having individuals assigned to observation posts, and 6 that observation posts were staffed or manned by 7 individuals? 8 A: I don't remember anything like that. 9 I just remember what I was doing, like, I was hanging 10 around there. I don't remember being assigned to any 11 particular post. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. Were there observation 13 posts? 14 A: Yeah, there was probably people 15 hanging around at the store, that'd probably be 16 considered a post. 17 Q: Well, that's not what Mr. Simons 18 told us, he told us there were several observation posts 19 that persons were assigned to, to watch for, presumably, 20 the OPP or others, who were going to or could threaten 21 your occupancy of the Park? You say that not -- you're 22 not aware of any of that? 23 A: Just the -- just the people hanging 24 around the store, pretty much. 25 Q: Okay.
1101 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 2 Ross...? 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, Mr. 4 Roland is taking evidence of Marlin Simon further than 5 it was. If he wants to he can read -- he's got a 6 transcript. He can tell him exactly what the evidence 7 is. 8 He started by saying Marlin Simon says 9 and presumably to all kinds of other things. I would 10 appreciate if he'd just read the evidence, he's got in 11 the transcript. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, thank 13 you. Do you have the -- 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah, well, I can take 15 it -- yes, it's -- it's the September 4, '95 transcript 16 -- sorry, sorry. It's -- it's about September 4. 17 It's the September 29, '04 transcript, 18 the examination by Susan Vella at Page 91 where she 19 asked the question: 20 "Were there any measures taken that 21 day, [referring to September 4 and 5 -- 22 I think it's actually -- to be fair, 23 September 5] to continue to secure the 24 Park on the part of the Occupants?" 25 Answer:
1111 "Measures? I don't know. Everybody 2 was kind of -- yeah, I guess everybody 3 was feeling that it was escalating and 4 I think we started to, like a rotation 5 for the different observation points 6 where people would be manning them at 7 different times." 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Exactly my point, Mr. 9 Commissioner. When -- excuse me, please, Mr. Roland. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 11 Ross? 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: When he started 13 talking about assignment -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: There is no 16 assignment, I mean -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- this -- the -- the 19 -- the evidence of this Witness is not inconsistent with 20 Marlin Simon. It was obviously a -- ill organized or 21 just a thing that came together, however, but to say 22 there was a structure with assignment, he can't find it 23 in the transcript -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- and my view is if
1121 he's putting evidence to a Witness, which is purportedly 2 from another witness, he should be specific. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 4 you're right, Mr. Ross, and I think that's what Mr. 5 Roland would certainly do if he was going to do that. 6 So, if you're going to put something to 7 him that you want him to comment on, you should put it 8 to him accurately. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. We also 10 heard from Mr. Simons, and I'll ask you to comment on 11 this. No doubt Mr. Ross will be on his feet if I don't 12 put it accurately, that there was, on September -- 13 either 5th or 6th there was -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now you 15 have Mr. Millar on his feet. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 20 Q: All right. That there were -- I'm 21 told by -- by Mr. Millar, that the observation posts, as 22 Mr. Simons testified to -- were on September the 6th. 23 Does that help you at all, Mr. George, 24 that there were observation posts at different -- 25 manned --
1131 A: Yeah, after the -- 2 Q: -- by different people on September 3 6th? 4 A: After the cops killed Dudley, yeah, 5 we did have observation posts. 6 Q: He was talking before that; he wasn't 7 talking about after. He was talking before the -- the 8 very late night of September 6th. He was talking during 9 the day of September 6th. 10 A: There was just people hanging around 11 the store there, sandy parking lot area. He was 12 probably referring to those as being posts. People 13 would come and go all the time. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: There'd be people driving around, 16 too, that would keep an eye on things. He was probably 17 talking about those guys, too. 18 Q: Now, Mr. Simons also says that on the 19 5th or the 6th, that there was -- the people in the Park 20 were -- or some of them were collecting stones, bricks, 21 pipes, rocks, clubs, bats and stockpiling them. 22 A: On September 5th? 23 Q: And 6th. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, in fairness, I 25 think that the reference -- depending on the reference,
1141 it's -- the -- depending on the reference in the 2 transcript, it -- and I don't know which reference My 3 Friend's talking about, but it's the 6th in one (1) 4 reference that flows from what he was asking him about 5 that he's referring to September 6th. 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, he says -- the 7 question was -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: What page? 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 11 Q: Page -- this is September 29, Page 44 12 and when he was talking about rocks and pipes and clubs 13 and sticks and so on being stack -- stacking them up 14 around. He -- and the question was, this is at Page 44: 15 "Q: And this was occurring on Tuesday, 16 September the 5th? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: All right and what was the -- 19 let's see, maybe -- maybe not. It 20 might have been on the 6th, either the 21 5th or the 6th? 22 A: Yeah." 23 A: The only time I remember them -- 24 anybody stockpiling anything was after Dudley was 25 killed. And I think alls it was it somebody might have
1151 been picking rocks in the area, stones whatever. 2 Q: Sorry, before or after Dudley was 3 killed? A: After. After. 4 Q: But you say there was no -- there 5 was -- unlike Mr. Simons who says there was some 6 stockpiling on the 5th or the 6th, you say there wasn't 7 any? 8 A: I never seen any. 9 Q: Now, you talked about an interaction 10 that you had with some cottagers on, I think it was, 11 September 7th or 8th, it was after the incident of the 12 night of September 6th. Some cottagers came by and -- 13 you said, and asked permission if they could go up to 14 their cottages to get some things; you remember that? 15 A: Yeah, I remember it. I remember 16 some cottagers, yeah. 17 Q: Yeah. And they -- you say they 18 found that their places had been damaged and ransacked 19 and things stolen; do you recall that? 20 A: Yeah, something like that. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: Broken into. 23 Q: Hmm? 24 A: Broken into. 25 Q: Yeah. And you had said that that
1161 wasn't done by any of your people, any of the occupiers? 2 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: It was done by someone else? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And I think you left the suggestion 7 that it may have been done by the police? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: In the -- in the course of the -- of 10 your interview by the SIU and you were -- you recall 11 being interviewed by the SIU? 12 A: Yeah. Somewhat. Yeah, I remember 13 being interviewed. 14 Q: Excuse me why I find that. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: In that interview you talked about 19 the cottagers and this -- this incident that you've told 20 us about and you said in that interview that then: 21 "That none of our guys did any of that 22 because, you know, we got our orders." 23 This is page 6. 24 "We got our orders to make things run 25 smooth. We got -- you've got to follow
1171 orders. You can't be doing what you 2 want to do, so, none of us were down 3 there." 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: You remember saying that? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. So you're saying that 8 you -- you had orders and you had to follow your orders? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: You had to be disciplined enough to 11 follow orders; right? Where did the orders come from? 12 Who gave you the orders? 13 A: Well, it was agreed upon by the 14 people that no one would go near their cottages. 15 Q: I see. 16 A: Or drink when all this was happened 17 or smoke up or whatever. 18 Q: So you say the orders came from -- 19 A: People. 20 Q: -- the group? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And -- and when were those orders 23 issued by the group? 24 A: It was agreed on sometime during the 25 talks. Whenever they were talking about the Park.
1181 Q: I see. 2 A: No one would go near any cottages. 3 Q: And what other orders were there 4 besides that? Now you've said no drinking, don't have 5 anything to do with the cottagers, avoid the cottagers. 6 What other orders were issued by the 7 group? 8 A: Well, it was agreed upon there was 9 not going to be no firearms for one (1) thing. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: It was going to be -- it was trying 12 to be a peaceful -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- peaceful thing, just like the way 15 they walked into the -- the base there, they done it. 16 They walked in without firearms, we walked into the base 17 without firearms, walked into the Park without firearms, 18 that's what was agreed upon. 19 Q: It was peaceful at least, you say, 20 to the extent of not using firearms? 21 A: Well, we've got to defend ourselves 22 if the cops are coming in ramming picnic tables, we're 23 going to throw picnic tables on top of their car but -- 24 Q: And you're going to throw rocks, and 25 you're going to -- you're going to hit them with sticks,
1191 that sort of thing? 2 A: If they -- if they attacked us. 3 Q: But you're not going to use 4 firearms, is that it? 5 A: If they attacked us, yeah. 6 Q: And was that part of the orders, 7 that you could use -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- sticks and stones? 10 A: No. That wasn't part of the orders, 11 that was just coming from your own self preservation. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, just 13 for the record, the document My Friend was referring to 14 is document 10024. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 16 100...? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2464. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 2464. This 19 is the SIU Interview? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 25 Q: And I gather to defend yourself, you
1201 -- although you say you wouldn't go as far as using 2 firearms, you've told us you would go as far as using 3 Molotov cocktails? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Sorry? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Well, why did you make up ten (10) 8 Molotov cocktails? 9 A: Because those cops killed my cousin. 10 Q: And what were you going to do with 11 those Molotov cocktails? 12 A: Defend ourselves. 13 Q: Well that's -- that's my point isn't 14 it, that you were prepared to go that far to defend 15 yourselves with Molotov cocktails? 16 A: If they were going to come and shoot 17 again, yes. 18 Q: Had you ever made a Molotov cocktail 19 before that time? 20 A: I don't think so. 21 Q: Did you -- how did you know how to 22 make one (1)? 23 A: Seen it on t.v. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1211 Q: Mr. George, you talked about the 2 fact that the land has been taken away from you and your 3 people, that was your hunting ground, and that had been 4 your -- your view of the world for some time, I gather, 5 since you were a young -- a young teenager? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And by "the land," I take it you're 8 referring to, effectively, the -- 9 A: Everything. 10 Q: -- the -- 11 A: Canada. 12 Q: -- what is the traditional -- the 13 traditional land -- 14 A: Turtle. 15 Q: -- that your people occupied? 16 A: Turtle Island. 17 Q: Yes. We're talking about much of 18 southwestern Ontario? 19 A: We occupied the whole Turtle Island 20 at one (1) time. 21 Q: Yes, all right. And I gather that - 22 - that this was something that you had come to realize, 23 you say, at an early age, among other reasons, because 24 your -- or ways in which you came to learn this, because 25 you were demonstrating as early as the 1980s as a young
1221 man, marching outside the base, right? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And that -- and you've told us as a 4 fifteen (15) year old, you would go into the base and 5 throw rocks at the soldiers? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No? I thought that's what you'd 8 testified, as a young -- as a teenager, that you would 9 go into the base and that while they were on manoeuvres, 10 you and -- 11 A: Well, we wouldn't throw rocks at 12 them. 13 Q: You didn't? I thought that was your 14 evidence, all right. 15 A: No, I remember hiding on them, and 16 having them right in front of me. If you want to call a 17 pebble a rock you can. 18 Q: All right. And you were -- Mr. 19 Orkin talked -- talked to you about your frustration 20 about the fact that the military continued to occupy the 21 base and I gather that was something that had been 22 frustrating you from the time you were a teenager? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: You'd occupied the base in 1993. 25 Shortly after the others went in you were delayed by
1231 school. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And you continued to occupy the base 4 and what you wanted, you've told us, is you wanted the 5 military to leave. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And they were pretty slow in 8 leaving, weren't they? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And that frustrated you? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: You marched to Ottawa in August '93 13 and that didn't produce any result, did it? 14 A: It got people's awareness up. 15 Q: Yeah, well, certainly the experience 16 as I heard it from you was frustrating that nobody 17 would -- 18 A: Yeah, it was frustrating that, 19 what's her name -- damn, I can't even remember the MP's 20 name then. 21 Q: Kim -- Kim Campbell? 22 A: Kim Campbell, Kim Campbell. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: She put a media blackout but anybody 25 would be frustrated at that. Anybody would be
1241 frustrated at any of this kind of stuff. 2 Q: And certainly you were. And what 3 you'd seen is that these -- all these peaceful means to 4 try and achieve your objective didn't seem to be 5 succeeding. 6 Isn't that right? 7 A: Yeah, it's been, like -- how long 8 has it been since the army said they were going to give 9 the land back? 10 Q: As I recall -- as I recall, the 11 evidence they were going to give it back was said in 12 1942 -- 13 A: Well, I wouldn't -- 14 Q: -- they were going to give it back 15 after the war. 16 A: That kind of thing wouldn't make me 17 happy. So, yeah, I guess it would be frustration. 18 Everybody's frustrated. 19 Q: And when you're going into the 20 military base or barracks, you and others, to check it 21 out, you're doing so, I gather, to give the message to 22 the military you want them out? 23 A: When we walked into the base? 24 Q: No, when you drove your cars -- your 25 car in, from time to time to check it out. The message
1251 you wanted to give the military was that you wanted them 2 out. 3 A: I don't know if that was the 4 message. We were just letting them know that we were 5 there. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. And when you were painting 7 the -- the rock on the -- on the Park boundary in the 8 summer of '94, again, you were asserting your native 9 sovereignty; right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Again out of frustration that -- 12 that things weren't moving along? 13 A: Well, I think I just spray painted 14 that -- them blocks just because they were there, 'cause 15 they're on our land. I wasn't thinking of what you're 16 talking about being frustrated, because things ain't 17 moving along quick enough. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: I just put them there because simply 20 to let people know that this is Stoney Point land. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. But isn't it so, Mr. 22 George, that the -- the peaceful approach that you'd 23 started with as a demonstrator as a teenager, and as you 24 moved through this challenge of the military and 25 challenge of the government to regain your land, what --
1261 didn't seem to be having the effect that you wanted it 2 to have, that it was moving too slowly for you. 3 A: For everybody, yeah. 4 Q: Well, we can talk about you at 5 least. If I start talking about everybody, I'm going to 6 get some people objecting, so let's talk about you for 7 the moment. 8 It was certainly moving too slowly for 9 you, wasn't it? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And you were prepared to resort to 12 more aggressive means to achieve your objective? 13 A: Just carry on the way I was going. 14 Q: Well, you were prepared to -- to 15 forcibly occupy the barracks with others? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: You weren't invited into the 18 barracks; were you? 19 A: Neither were they. 20 Q: No. And you were prepared to 21 forcibly occupy the Park? 22 A: Forcibly? I wouldn't say 23 "forcibly." 24 Q: Well you -- come on, Mr. George, you 25 took along a tire iron to -- to break the lock on the
1271 gate, didn't you? 2 A: I never took a tire iron along with 3 me. I just happened to have one (1) in the car. 4 Q: But the purpose was, if necessary, 5 to break the lock on the gate; To forcibly take 6 possession of the Park? 7 A: Yeah, I guess so. 8 Q: Yeah. And you've told us that the 9 parking lot, as well, that we've had so much focus on 10 was, in your view, part of your lands? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And you were prepared to forcibly 13 take that piece of land, as well, weren't you? 14 A: Somewhat. 15 Q: Well, that's why you -- you and 16 others and we'll get to these later, but, you and others 17 put up the picnic tables out there to forcibly take it? 18 A: I guess, yeah. 19 Q: And your -- I take it your rationale 20 for that was, this was just part of the land that had 21 been taken from you or from your ancestors? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And as I hear you, that rationale 24 applies to really all of southwestern Ontario, doesn't 25 it? It's all been taken from you?
1281 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And so it's simply a question for 3 you, is it not, of incrementally regaining the property 4 that's been taken by your ancestors? The next step was 5 that parking lot, but, that wasn't the end of it, was 6 it, as far as you're concerned? 7 A: What do you mean? 8 Q: Well, what about all the other land? 9 You've told us that there's the -- there's other land, 10 as well? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Indeed southwestern Ontario, right? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And your view is that you should 15 regain all of that land? 16 A: Yeah, we should. 17 Q: Now, the rationale for the base, we 18 understand. The rationale from the base was it was 19 taken from your people as -- which was treaty land taken 20 under War Measures Act, we understand that rationale. 21 Right. 22 And that was the basis upon which at 23 least, a number of people, I gather including you, is 24 one basis you say you should have that -- the military 25 base back. Because it was yours, it had been, by
1291 treaty, it had been given to your people, right? 2 A: I don't know by treaty, maybe -- I 3 don't know. 4 Q: I shouldn't say given, it was 5 reserved for your people by treaty, it was never ceded 6 out but, it was -- people are -- 7 A: There's just a big story there 8 you're getting into. 9 Q: All right. Maybe I'm not using the 10 right verb, but, it was retained as treaty land? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, perhaps My 12 Friend is getting into an area that -- and the evidence 13 was, actually, that this land was never ceded in the 14 1827 treaty, this land was never ceded to the Crown. 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: "Retain" is not a verb, 16 is it? What's the verb you want me to use? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It was never ceded. 18 It was accepted out of the grant to the -- 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. Fair 20 enough. I don't care what the verb is. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's trying 22 to use the right word. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm trying to use the 24 right verb. 25
1301 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: It was exempted from the grant of 3 the Crown, it was never ceded to the Crown. Is that 4 fair? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And I don't really care what the 7 description is, I'm just trying to get the sense of it, 8 that that was the basis upon which you and others 9 asserted that this base -- this military base -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 11 don't care, Mr. Roland, but, others certainly do. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: I know they do. I'm 13 just trying to get to the point. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 16 Q: That on whatever basis it was, you 17 and others -- your others said, that you were entitled 18 to re-occupy, exclusively reoccupy that property and the 19 military had no basis being there? 20 A: Yeah, because he said they were 21 going to give it back. 22 Q: Yeah. Now -- 23 A: They never did. 24 Q: Now, isn't it fair, Mr. George, that 25 as far as the Park is concerned it's not as clear a
1311 case, is it, because at least from one (1) perspective 2 that property was sold by the Band to a private sale, I 3 gather, a developer and ultimately became property of 4 the Provincial government? 5 A: There was a shifty Indian Agent that 6 was going around messing things up, yeah. 7 Q: But, that certainly wasn't as clear 8 a case, was it? 9 A: No, it was -- I wasn't a witness to 10 that stuff back then, but, I heard about it. 11 Q: Okay. And you and others that 12 occupied the Park did so, really, to a very large extent 13 on the basis not of the sale, the questionable sale of 14 the property, but, on the basis that it was part of your 15 ancestral burial grounds, that there was -- your 16 ancestors were buried there? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: That was really the thrust of your 19 assertion that you should have possession of the Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Right. Now, none of that applied, 22 that didn't apply to the parking area, did it? There's 23 no suggestion of any burial grounds in the parking area? 24 The sandy parking lot that we've been discussing? 25 A: Actually, there is burial grounds
1321 all over there. There's cottages -- 2 Q: Well -- 3 A: -- cottages down the road there 4 that's got burial grounds in it too. 5 Q: I see. Because we didn't see in the 6 material, any -- and we haven't heard any assertion, 7 that -- that of -- of a possessory (phonetic) right to 8 that on the basis of burial grounds, on the basis that 9 there are some person's ancestors buried in that parking 10 lot? We haven't heard that from anybody. 11 And I take it you don't know, yourself, 12 that there's any person's ancestors buried in that 13 parking lot area? The sandy -- 14 A: Do I know of anybody buried in the 15 parking lot? 16 Q: You don't know that anybody was, you 17 have no -- there's no evidence that anybody's -- 18 A: Well there is now. 19 Q: -- put forward. There is now...? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. What we -- maybe we'll hear 22 that. Is that first-hand evidence that you have or...? 23 A: Well we were gonna -- after Dudley 24 died there, we were gonna burry him there, where -- the 25 spot where he fell, but there was -- but the family
1331 didn't want him there, they wanted him in the rest of 2 the cemetery. But there was a grave that was dug there 3 in that spot, and since Dudley wasn't going in there, 4 some artifacts went in. 5 Q: I see. Oh, so you say you created a 6 grave after Dudley was shot and killed? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: I see. Well, I'm talking about 9 before the events of September the 6th. 10 A: I'm not aware of any, no, grave 11 there before that. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: But I was aware there was -- all 14 through there, that area, the whole area has got graves 15 all through. 16 Q: Thank you. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, 18 that's a good place to break for the -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 20 almost done with him? 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: Finished -- I've got 22 some other topics, but I'm pretty well finished this 23 topic. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This one? 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah.
1341 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But can you 2 give us an estimate -- 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I have no doubt I 4 will be through today, sir. There's no doubt. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have a 6 couple other cross-examiners, I was wondering if we 7 would get through them -- 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. I think -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- as well 10 today. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: I think so. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have 13 to -- 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Do we sit until 5:00 15 today? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we'll 17 sit as long as we have to, because I would like to 18 finish this witness today, -- 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if it's 21 possible. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: No, I think it's 23 possible. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much, Mr. Roland.
1351 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is a 3 good time to break. What time should we break until? 4 An hour and fifteen minutes? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, maybe until 6 twenty after 2:00, it's five after -- oh it's ten after 7 by that clock, I have a different clock. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's ten 9 after, so what time should we break until? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Until twenty-five 11 after two, an hour and fifteen (15) minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: An hour and 13 fifteen minutes, twenty-five after. Thank you. 14 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 15 Inquiry stands adjourned until 2:25 p.m. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 1:10 p.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 2:28 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 23 Mr. Roland. 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 25
1361 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: Mr. George, before the lunch break I 3 was asking about the parking lot and the -- in 4 particular, the picnic tables used in the parking lot to 5 define that part of the -- of the land that you and your 6 fellow occupiers were claiming by putting those picnic 7 tables up. 8 And we saw in the video the boundary of 9 the tables was more or less the boundary where the 10 roadway ended and the parking lot began; right? 11 A: Yeah. In a little bit. 12 Q: "Yeah. In a little bit."? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: But it was more or less the boundary. 15 And we know that, as I say that -- that the assertion of 16 the right to the army camp property and we -- we -- you 17 and I agree that the assertion of the right, at least 18 publicly expressed, of the park, Ipperwash Park, was on 19 the basis it was a burial ground and, indeed, there is a 20 -- I found an article in the London Free Press of August 21 the 28th that spoke of that assertion of right. 22 I'm not going to refer to it directly, but 23 I'll give you the number. It's 1003678 that there may 24 have been some earlier publications of that but I -- 25 certainly by August the 28th there was publicly
1371 understood an assertion by you and your fellow occupiers 2 of a right to the park on the basis of it being a burial 3 -- historical burial ground. 4 But I put it to Mr. George that there was 5 never an expression of, at least publicly, that anybody 6 was aware of of an assertion of a right over the parking 7 lot by -- by that time. 8 Before those -- those picnic tables went 9 up there was never any expression publicly made of an 10 assertion of a right to the parking lot; do you know of 11 any? 12 A: I don't think it was announced on any 13 TV about having any assertion over the parking lot. 14 Q: "Parking lot". And so isn't it fair 15 to say that, at least, it would be reasonable for those 16 who are not occupiers, the police and the government and 17 the cadres too, to not have any understanding why you're 18 occupying the parking lot as opposed to occupying the 19 park? 20 A: Well, it's all -- it was all one (1) 21 piece of land. 22 Q: But that wasn't expressed anywhere; 23 was it publicly? 24 A: We got maps. 25 Q: No, no. I mean you didn't -- you or
1381 your fellow occupiers didn't assert that publicly 2 anywhere before you actually occupied the parking lot 3 that you're occupying the parking lot on some basis 4 either that it was earlier land or that it was burial 5 ground? 6 There was no assertion of that publicly 7 anywhere; was there? 8 A: I don't think so. No. 9 Q: And so isn't it fair to say, Mr. 10 George, that occupying the parking lot as you did, you 11 and your fellow occupiers did with the tables, might 12 appear as provocation to the police and to the cottagers 13 and to the public and to the government, that this looked 14 -- could look to them as if you were -- you were 15 provoking something that -- that otherwise you wouldn't 16 if you didn't occupy that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: "No"? 19 A: I don't think so. 20 Q: But you, at least as I understand 21 your evidence, understood this as advancing your agenda 22 to retake the land that you say was rightfully yours and 23 your ancestors, right? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Now, you said to us that on September
1391 the 5th, I think it was about 10:30 or eleven o'clock, 2 you went home -- or you went back up to the barracks to 3 sleep. On September the 5th? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: Sometime that night, yeah. 7 Q: Yeah, and you said you'd been up for 8 four (4) days. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And I take it you meant four (4) days 11 and four (4) nights? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Can you tell us, was your -- the fact 14 that you were up four (4) days four (4) nights have 15 anything to do with these events? 16 Was that why you were up for four (4) 17 days and four (4) nights? 18 A: No, probably -- partly, yeah. Yeah. 19 Q: Well, what were you doing in the night 20 that kept you up? That is, the night of, I guess, the 21 fourth, the third, the second and the first that's 22 related to these events? 23 A: That's related to these events? 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: Well, the first night I was there, on
1401 the fourth I was there the whole night -- 2 Q: Fair enough. 3 A: -- pretty much. I think I was just in 4 the -- in the base. I was like up and about. 5 Q: I'm sorry. 6 A: I was just up and about. You know, 7 there was a lot of people there -- a lot of -- it was a - 8 - we -- the young people kind of stayed up kind of all 9 night, usually. 10 Q: Is this a regular thing or is this in 11 -- in anticipation of going into the Park? 12 A: No, it's a regular thing. We used to 13 call ourselves "the Vampires" because we'd be up all 14 night. 15 Q: I see. So, are you telling us, then, 16 it had nothing in particular to do with these events? 17 A: No. There -- there was other times I 18 stayed up four (4) days in a row. Like, I was watching a 19 fire. I'd be up for four (4) days in a row watching the 20 fire. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: I do that all the time. If I ever 23 have to work in cars I'll be up for up to four (4) days 24 fixing cars. 25 Q: Okay. That's fine. Let me move to --
1411 to your previous testimony. You and Warren George had a 2 trial together in Sarnia back in 1997 before Judge Pockel 3 (phonetic). Do you remember -- do you remember that? 4 A: Yeah, Greg Pockel. 5 Q: Yeah. And that trial concerned the 6 charge that Warren George faced as a result of driving 7 his car out of the parking lot and for you it was with 8 respect to the stick that you allegedly wield and struck 9 a Police Officer with in a confrontation in the parking 10 lot. 11 Do you remember that? Do you remember 12 that trial was about those -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- those -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- two (2) events? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And you and Warren George were tried 19 together at the same trial? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. And in the course of that 22 trial, which went over many months as these things do 23 when -- it's not all done in one (1) or two (2) days. 24 Inspector John Carson testified and you 25 will recall his testimony?
1421 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: You remember that he did testify about 3 these events? 4 A: I can't remember if he was there -- a 5 lot of people. 6 Q: There were a number of witnesses. Do 7 you remember Staff -- Staff Sargent Wade Lacroix 8 testified? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: You do remember that? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And you remember Warren George 13 testified? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And you remember that Cecil Bernard 16 George testified? He testified on the -- 17 A: I don't think I was there for that. 18 Q: You weren't there? 19 A: I don't remember. 20 Q: Well, you would have been -- you 21 weren't there? Because you were one (1) -- I -- I mean 22 obviously the court record doesn't show your presence, 23 but you were one (1) of the two (2) accused -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- in this --
1431 A: I don't remember listening to 2 Slippery, though. I don't -- I don't remember seeing him 3 up there on the stand. 4 Q: Okay, well we'll get to his testimony 5 in a minute, because he did testify. There's a public 6 transcript of that testimony. 7 Did you attend the Ken Deane trial? 8 A: Some of it. 9 Q: So you heard witnesses there? 10 A: I don't think I could get into the 11 courtroom. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: It was pretty packed in there. 14 There's a lot of people. I don't think I could get in 15 for that one. I'm just trying to remember if I was in 16 there at all. I don't even think I got up to his 17 courtroom that time. He was up -- I might have been just 18 hanging around outside. 19 Q: All right. Did you attend the 20 Nicholas Cortrelle (phonetic) trial? 21 A: Yeah, probably. I was probably 22 outside. 23 Q: Did you hear the evidence given at 24 that trial? Or some of it? 25 A: I don't -- I think I might have been
1441 sitting there, yeah. 2 Q: All right. And with -- and I take 3 that on a number of occasions, many occasions, you would 4 have been -- you would have discussed these -- this 5 incident -- these incidents on September the 6th, in 6 particular, with others who participated? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: On many occasions you had those kinds 9 of discussions, right? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Yes. And in preparation to come to 12 here to testify, I take it you met with Commission 13 Counsel and discussed these -- the incident? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And you met with other lawyers? I 16 take it you would have met -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- with your lawyer -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- to discuss the incident? And 21 you -- did you read any other -- any transcripts or 22 statements or any material in preparation to testify 23 here? 24 A: Just my own. 25 Q: Just your own? You didn't review any
1451 others? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And did anybody else review other 4 statements or transcripts or evidence with you? 5 A: Did anybody else? 6 Q: Yes, either Commission counsel or 7 your Counsel? 8 A: I guess my Counsel would have. 9 Q: Yes. Okay. 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I think we need to 11 clarify that whether or not his Counsel reviewed them 12 himself or his Counsel reviewed them with the witness. 13 That -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assumed he 15 meant with him but -- 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, I assumed he -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- clarify 18 it. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND 21 Q: Yes, I assumed you reviewed other 22 material and transcripts or statements with your Counsel. 23 A: Yeah, I talked about it with him. 24 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me.
1461 Yes, Mr. Henderson. 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I don't have a 3 specific objection to -- to the questions that were right 4 there, but they -- they seemed to me to go in the 5 direction of -- you know, what exchanges or activities 6 did you participate with in the presence of your Counsel. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm assuming 8 that he's not going to go there. I -- 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I don't think he 10 is going there, but -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 12 don't know. We'll have to wait and see. 13 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I think we -- we 14 were moving in that direction and -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll be up 16 on your feet. 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I will if it's 18 one of my witnesses, sir, yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm assuming 20 Mr. Roland isn't going there. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: No. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
1471 Q: Mr. George, let me take you to the 2 account that you give of the events of the evening of 3 September the 6th in the parking lot and you, having 4 heard, as you say, Mr. Lacroix's evidence at your own 5 trial, would know that there is another version of the 6 events. 7 You heard a different version from Staff 8 Sergeant Lacroix at that trial, didn't you? 9 A: Yeah, I heard some of the stuff. 10 Q: Yeah. And I'm not going to spend the 11 time taking you through another version and I don't think 12 the Commissioner would be happy if I did, 'cause we're 13 going to hear, no doubt, from Staff Sergeant Lacroix 14 about his version of the events. 15 But let me just deal with a bit of it. 16 I'm not going to put you -- put -- Staff Sergeant 17 Lacroix's evidence but your evidence back in a way that I 18 think I can understand -- understand it better. 19 And first of all, when we talk about the 20 fence that separates the parking lot from the Park, as I 21 watched the video and as I gather you did, in particular 22 the video that was played by Mr. Millar of the parking 23 lot -- sandy parking lot area with the picnic tables, and 24 indeed also the helicopter view, it appears there's a 25 natural boundary. There was then a natural boundary
1481 along that fence line, made up not only of the fence, but 2 of vegetation, trees and actually a rise in sand of a 3 foot or two (2). 4 Isn't that so? There was a natural 5 boundary along that -- along that fence line? 6 A: There are some trees. 7 Q: Some trees and bushes, too, right? 8 We saw -- we can -- I'm not going to take you back 9 through the DVD. We'll look at those in due course. 10 But as I saw it, there were some trees, 11 there were some bushes and there was actually a rise in 12 sand which I think in that location is natural, because 13 if you've got any kind of break or barrier, the sand's 14 going to collect. 15 A: There might have been a little... 16 Q: Rise in sand? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Yeah. And that appears to be a nat - 19 - there seemed to be a natural barrier that -- that 20 defined that fence line, didn't it? 21 A: Yeah. Looked like the sand was 22 blowing up around the fence. 23 Q: Yeah. And as I understand your 24 evidence, the fight that you engaged in, what you called 25 -- you described it like a gang fight, the final
1491 encounter in the parking lot between you and your fellow 2 occupiers, you said, ten (10) or fifteen (15) of you, and 3 the police, was one in which -- which occurred in the 4 parking lot, and in which both you and the police were 5 engaged in a fight using, on your side, sticks, bats, 6 poles, and on the police side, their batons, right? 7 A: They had batons, shields. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: Yeah, armour. 10 Q: And you talked about you taking -- 11 getting into really -- getting in, I think you described, 12 as good hits and taking some hits, as well, right? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And I gather that clash that occurred 15 between the police and your fellow occupiers occurred 16 with about the same time, you were all clashing one (1) 17 with the other, at about the same time? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Right? 20 A: At the same time, yeah. 21 Q: Right. And then as I hear your 22 evidence, the police backed off, the clash occurred and 23 the police then backed off? 24 A: Yeah, they backed off a few feet. 25 Q: And they moved up -- the police moved
1501 as a group up towards the paved part of the road that is 2 at the corner, that defines East Parkway and Army Camp 3 Road, right? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And that's -- and so you separated 6 from them. Your group and the police were no longer, 7 they'd had the clash, the police backed off the fighting 8 stopped, right? And your group remained in the -- 9 A: Actually the fighting didn't stop 10 because Slippery is still getting pounded. 11 Q: Well, apart, we'll deal with 12 Slippery, but, apart from Slippery, let me deal with 13 Slippery separately, we'll deal with him in a minute. 14 But, apart from Slippery, the clash 15 between your group and the police had stopped? 16 A: Yeah, for -- we weren't sure what 17 they were going to do, because they backed up several 18 times and we weren't sure if they were going to try and 19 charge us again. 20 Q: And as I understand it, you didn't 21 follow them, you stayed there occupying the parking lot 22 where the clash had occurred and the police backed off 23 and moved up to the road? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right. And as they backed up and
1511 moved up to the road, they started moving along in a 2 westerly direction along East Parkway? 3 A: Yeah, they were moving west. 4 Q: And it's as they got up to the road 5 and started moving in an easterly direction along East 6 Parkway that the bus and then the car came out? 7 A: I don't think they were that far down 8 the road when the car and the bus came out. 9 Q: All right. We'll I'm not saying how 10 -- I'm not saying how far they were, but, they were I 11 think on the paved part of the road and they were 12 somewhere along, you've got it behind you, I think it's 13 Exhibit 67, but, as this group -- the police group moved 14 along that roadway, which they were -- I take it they 15 were somewhere around 3 or so, when the bus first came 16 out? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Yeah -- 21 Q: It's hard to put them at an exact 22 point, I know, because they were a large group, aren't 23 they? They were -- 24 A: Yeah, they were big -- 25 Q: -- I mean you described them first of
1521 all, when you first saw them, as a hundred of them coming 2 down the road? 3 A: Yeah, it looked like that. 4 Q: We know that's a bit of an 5 exaggeration, isn't it? 6 A: I don't know. 7 Q: There weren't a hundred -- 8 A: I don't know if it's an exaggeration, 9 or not. 10 Q: But, it seemed like a lot, didn't it? 11 A: Yeah, it seemed like a lot. 12 Q: Certainly, the evidence is going to 13 be, that there were between I think thirty-two (32) and 14 forty (40), somewhere in that, that was the number. 15 But, to you it seemed like a very large 16 group of officers, didn't it? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And they -- and as they moved up to 19 the roadway and along East Parkway in a westerly 20 direction, they moved as a group? They weren't a tight 21 group, but, they were a group, weren't they? 22 A: They were pretty bunched up. 23 Q: Yeah. And you were meanwhile, I 24 gather, back in the area of the -- of, what, about -- 25 where you got 6 or so, back in that area?
1531 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Yeah. All right. And that's when 3 you heard the bus and the car? 4 A: Yeah. They were still beating on 5 Slippery. 6 Q: Yeah. Yeah. And we'll deal with 7 Slippery in a minute, I just want to get your movements 8 and the car and the bus and the -- we know the bus came 9 out followed by the car. Right? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And they went past you and your 12 collected group of ten (10) or fifteen (15) of you? 13 A: Well, we were kind of spread out, 14 yeah, but it -- yeah, it did go by us. 15 Q: Yeah. And I gather you and some 16 others followed the bus and the car? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And as the bus and the car proceeded 19 in a westerly direction along East Parkway, you were 20 behind the two (2) of them -- you were behind the bus and 21 the car? 22 A: Yeah, kind of off to the side a little 23 bit. 24 Q: Off to which side; the south or north? 25 A: I was -- I was more towards the north.
1541 Q: All right. And the -- the officers as 2 a group -- and you've marked them as 9 at the time that 3 the bus arrives at that group, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You had them spread out over in that 6 area that's marked as 9 and I gather that the officers 7 would have been on the paved part of the highway until 8 the bus arrived and then they scattered a little bit; 9 they scattered both north and south? 10 A: Yeah, there -- there was a big group, 11 like there might have been a couple of guys standing 12 alongside of the road even then before the bus came 13 through. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: It looked like a big crowd. It looked 16 like it went right across the road. 17 Q: Yeah. And we've all seen the area, 18 it's a fairly narrow area there, isn't it? That roadway 19 and -- with the -- with the -- on the north side there's 20 the -- the bushes and some banking and on the south side 21 there's the fence and some vegetation, but it's a -- it's 22 a fairly narrow area? 23 A: Yeah, it's pretty narrow. 24 Q: Yeah. And I gather that the -- that 25 the officers were always in this exercise of you moving
1551 behind the car and the bus and the officers moving in a 2 westerly direction on East Parkway -- were always further 3 -- they were always further west than you? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: You never actually engaged them again? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Physically? No. 8 A: No. Well, I don't know, they were 9 shootin at us. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I don't know if you can call that 12 engaging. 13 Q: No, I mean you didn't engage them? 14 A: No. 15 Q: You didn't -- you had -- 16 A: No, I never. 17 Q: -- you had a baseball bat, you didn't 18 engage them any further? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No. And I gather your -- your fellow 21 occupiers, the group of ten (10) or fifteen (15), at 22 least some of them moved along with you, did they? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And as far as you're aware, none of 25 them engaged the police either, with their sticks or
1561 baseball bats? There was no more fighting that occurred, 2 physical combat between the officers and the -- and the 3 occupiers -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- as there had been in the parking 6 lot? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No. 9 A: Well, just Slippery getting beat up. 10 Q: Yeah. Now, you've told us that -- 11 that Slippery was taken by the group of officers you said 12 took him and that occurred before the -- the clash of 13 your group and the police in the parking lot? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Right? And -- and so before that 16 clash, he was taken and moved and he began moving in a 17 westerly direction with the officers? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Or they began moving him? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And the -- and the clash occurred. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: The engagement and the disengagement, 24 the police moving along in a westerly direction, then the 25 bus and the car. And I gather Slippery and those
1571 officers who were with him were always ahead of the group 2 of police; that is, they were always further west, the 3 group of police, and they were always further west than 4 the bus and the car as they moved in a westerly 5 direction? 6 A: Slippery and the group? 7 Q: Yes and his group -- the -- the 8 officers that had him. 9 A: Yeah, they were west of us. 10 Q: And they were west of the group of 11 officers that you had the clash with as well -- 12 A: No, it looked like they were right in 13 the middle. 14 Q: I see. 15 A: He was totally surrounded, like, he 16 was -- he was right in the middle. 17 Q: Of -- of this large group of officers? 18 A: Yeah, it looked like it. 19 Q: I see. You sure that they -- he 20 wasn't ahead of them towards the -- towards the detention 21 wagon? I was told not to call it a paddy wagon, but I 22 can't help myself. 23 A: Looked like they were all around that 24 area. 25 Q: I see. Because you've marked -- isn't
1581 that -- is that -- isn't that the -- the detention van 2 that you've marked, I think it's a "B", it's hard to read 3 it, but it -- 4 A: Yeah, it's a "B". 5 Q: -- it's the furthest west marking? 6 A: Yeah. I think that's about where it 7 was. 8 Q: And that's where -- that's where you 9 say Slippery ended up or was with the Officers that had 10 control of him? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Which is, of course, west of the 13 Officers that you've described on here, in this at "9". 14 A: Yeah, he -- he was right in the 15 middle of them. I don't know. The -- it's kind of hard 16 to see where the van was 'cause there -- it was down the 17 road a little bit further. 18 Q: In any event -- 19 A: From my view, anyways. 20 Q: -- whatever you could see, Mr. 21 George, and I'm not going to get into a whole long cross- 22 examination of what you saw and didn't see. There will 23 be others that will testify to -- to their -- to their 24 views. 25 But whatever you did see, between you and
1591 Slippery and those Officers that had him, there was all 2 of the group of Officers that had clashed with you and 3 retreated, and then once the bus and car came along, 4 there was the bus and car as well, all of those would 5 have obstructed your view; wouldn't they? 6 A: The bus and the car? 7 Q: And the other -- 8 A: I had a clear view of Slippery. Like 9 -- well, not a clear view. I couldn't see him through 10 all the cops, but I could the spot where they were still 11 clubbing him up. 12 Q: But you couldn't see him, could you? 13 A: No, I couldn't see him 'cause he's 14 getting all clubbed up, he was surrounded. 15 Q: And there were some -- and this was 16 something that was -- this whole event was moving very 17 quickly, wasn't it? There was a lot of motion. 18 A: You could see Slippery getting beat 19 through -- like everybody's moving around him, eh. You 20 might catch a occasional glimpse of him getting beat, 21 because he was surrounded. 22 And I could -- the bus wasn't in my way 23 and the car wasn't in my way. And that's -- the only 24 time the car was in my -- in between me and Slippery was 25 when it veered off and then it backed out. But I -- I
1601 was on the same side as the road, or on the same side of 2 the road as -- I guess where Slippery would have been. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: Getting worked over. I could see the 5 crowd of Police right there. 6 Q: All right. So you -- you agree that 7 there would -- there would -- these Officers and the bus 8 or at least the car, for a bit of -- I guess not the bus, 9 you say, but the car, at least for some of the time, 10 would have been between you and where you say Slippery 11 was located along the highway or the roadway further 12 west? 13 A: Yeah, probably for about maybe two 14 (2) seconds. 15 Q: All right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Now, Mr. George, in your evidence on 20 the -- the last day, you said that Cecil Bernard George, 21 Slippery George, never even got in a swing with the 22 Officers. 23 You remember saying that? 24 A: No -- oh, yeah. 25 Q: And I take --
1611 A: I think he put his arm up or 2 something. I don't think -- he never got in a swing or 3 nothing. 4 Q: You said that he had a walking stick 5 but -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- he didn't use it to strike an 8 Officer or attempt to strike an Officer. 9 A: I think he used it to point -- he 10 used the handle to point at them or something. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: 'Cause he was trying to talk to them. 13 Q: Now, you don't recall hearing the 14 evidence of Cecil Bernard George at your trial? You've 15 told us that? 16 A: I don't remember seeing Slippery's... 17 Q: All right. Well, I'm going to read 18 from you some of his evidence because it contradicts you. 19 And it's evidence that was given under oath at your 20 trial. And see if this assists your memory. 21 It's at Document 1004977, Volume 3 -- 22 sorry, I'm not sure what that says, it's 10064977, 23 page 118 and page 119. I'm actually going to start at 24 page, the bottom of page 117, I think -- no, sorry, the 25 top of page 119. Got it?
1621 This is the -- where he was being cross- 2 examined in your trial by the Crown Attorney and he was 3 asked the evidence -- or he's asked the question: 4 "You hit one of the officers with your 5 stick, broke his shield? 6 A: I don't know if I broke his shield, 7 or I know I hit it. I think I hit the 8 shield. Q: Two-handed blow? 9 A: I think it might've been just one 10 hand. 11 Q: You heard the shield break? 12 A: Well, there were -- was other. It 13 sounds -- it sounded like glass 14 breaking all over." 15 Now, that was a description that you gave, 16 to a very large extent, when you were in the clash, that 17 you said you heard it, I think you said it sounded like 18 glass breaking. When you actually use your baseball bat 19 and hit a shield. 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: But Slippery's giving the same 22 evidence, much the same, in other words, it sounds from 23 his evidence he was engaged in the very confrontation, 24 the very fight you were engaged in? Does that help your 25 memory?
1631 A: No. He wasn't in that fight. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: He was getting worked over when we 4 were clashing with the cops. 5 Q: And do you remember that Staff 6 Sergeant Wade Lacroix testified on September 27, '97, at 7 pages 102 and 103, that he -- he believed he was struck 8 by a steel pole, by Slippery, then broke his shield. 9 Do you remember that evidence at your 10 trial? 11 A: At my trial? 12 Q: Yes, at your trial? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. And then in that same -- 15 in that same trial, I'm going to read you about his -- 16 Slippery's description of what he was doing when he -- he 17 says he was being beaten by the officers, all right, and 18 there's no doubt he says that as well at his trial. 19 The question: 20 "You were -- I don't if you know, were 21 you overrun by officers?" 22 This is the Crown Attorney in cross- 23 examination asking this question of Slippery. 24 "In other words..." 25 Page 118.
1641 "In other words, you went down and 2 officers continue running ahead of you. 3 I should put that another way. Were 4 you running over and the officers 5 continue running towards the Park? 6 A: ..." 7 This is Slippery's answer: 8 "I don't know, I just know I was 9 knocked down and I don't know what 10 happened after that. 11 Q: And you resisted to some extent? 12 A: I didn't resist, I was trying to 13 get away from them, to what they were 14 doing to me. 15 Q: Okay, well all right, you were 16 trying to get away and the way you did 17 that was you were kicking out at the 18 officers who were around there? 19 A: I felt like an animal being beat so 20 I just tried to get away, like -- like 21 a normal human being would try to. 22 Q: Can you explain what you did 23 specifically? 24 A: Just curled up in a ball and I kept 25 kicking my feet and hands, hoping that
1651 they would stop." 2 Now, do you remember seeing him kicking 3 his hands and feet and trying to get away? 4 A: He might have been struggling like 5 that, yeah. But he -- he was curled up in a ball. I 6 remember seeing him on his back, and he might have gave a 7 few kicks to try and block a few -- few of the blows 8 coming at him, yeah. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Okay. Let me take you to another 13 topic and that's the occupiers in the Park in the 14 confrontation we're talking about, that is, September the 15 6th. 16 And you gave an extensive list of who you 17 recall being there to Mr. Millar on October 20th and 21st 18 of this year, but in that list you didn't mention some 19 people I'd ask you about to see if you recall them being 20 there as well. 21 You said there were a couple of guys from 22 Walpole, but you didn't name them and let me start with 23 the Jewel brothers. Were they from -- are they from 24 Walpole? 25 A: Jewels --
1661 Q: Les Jewel and Russel Jewel? 2 A: I'm not sure where they're from. I 3 think they might be from Muncey. 4 Q: I see. So you weren't referring to 5 them when you said, a couple of guys from Walpole? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And they were both there, 8 weren't they? 9 A: Les and Russ? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: At the fight? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: No. 14 Q: No? They were in the Park, but not at 15 the fight? 16 A: Russ was in the Park, but I don't know 17 where Les was. 18 Q: Because we're going to have -- there's 19 going to be evidence, I think, of a photograph of Les in 20 the maintenance shed that afternoon, I think about 6:00 21 p.m., something like that? 22 A: Yeah, he might have been there then. 23 Q: Yeah. And -- but you say neither of 24 them were there in the fight itself? 25 A: No.
1671 Q: But they were in the Park? 2 A: During the day, yeah. 3 Q: Yeah. And were they -- you -- do you 4 know whether or not they were there in the evening? 5 A: The -- the evening of -- 6 Q: September the 6th? 7 A: 6th? I know Russ was in the 8 maintenance building because my grandpa told him to -- to 9 stay there, protect the kids, but as far as Les, I'm not 10 sure. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I don't know where the heck he was. 13 Q: All right. And -- okay, let me help 14 you again with respect to the couple of guys from 15 Walpole. Could that have been the two (2) Isaac 16 brothers, Perry and Ed Isaac? 17 A: Perry and Ed, I'm not sure about those 18 names. 19 Q: You don't -- you don't -- you don't 20 know? 21 A: No. 22 Q: You know Robert Isaac, of course? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And he's from Walpole? 25 A: Yeah.
1681 Q: But you don't know his brothers, Perry 2 and Ed? 3 A: Well, Big Ed, yeah I know Big Ed. 4 Perry -- Perry -- I'm not familiar with that name. 5 Q: Okay. And was -- 6 A: Is that were -- is that Sam? 7 Q: Sam, yeah. 8 A: I'm not sure if he was there or not. 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: But I know Robert was. 11 Q: And was big Ed there? 12 A: I don't think so. 13 Q: All right. So, the -- the couple of 14 guys from Walpole then are still persons unnamed, are 15 they? 16 A: There was a couple of guys there. I'm 17 not sure who they were. There -- there was a few people 18 there that I'm not even sure who they were or where 19 they're from. 20 Q: Okay. And let me just go through who 21 are not -- the persons there who are not Stoney Pointers: 22 Robert Isaac's not a Stoney Pointer? Right? 23 A: Not, well, not until he moved in. 24 Q: Well, when I say, "Stoney Point" are 25 people who have an historic connection to Stoney Point,
1691 who are part of your -- part of your ancestry, your Band, 2 your group? 3 A: No, he wasn't -- he wasn't -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- from Stoney Point. 6 Q: No. And Buck Doxtator wasn't? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Dutch French? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Gabriel Doxtator? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Darlene Fisher (phonetic)? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Let me ask you about -- you've named 15 Al George. That's not a name I'm familiar with. Can you 16 tell us who Al George is? 17 A: Just a guy from Oneida. 18 Q: Okay. He's from Oneida, so he's not a 19 Stoney Pointer either? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. Are there any others? I - 22 - I think I looked down the list that you gave, I think I 23 recognized all of them as -- the rest as Stoney Pointers 24 as I've described them; that is, they have an historical 25 ancestral band connection to Stoney Point.
1701 Is there any others that didn't? 2 A: I think that's about it. 3 Q: All right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Okay, now let me back you up a little 8 bit. On September the 6th, before the incident; that is, 9 in the latter part of the afternoon of September the 6th, 10 there's an account given about that period of time in a 11 report of the Windsor Star of the next day in which the 12 reporters who were there -- and you've told us reporters 13 were there on September the 6th? 14 You saw them there in the afternoon? 15 A: Some woman that said she was from the 16 media. 17 Q: Yes. And did you not see other 18 reporters as well on September the 6th? 19 A: Some -- I forget his name now. From 20 TV London or something. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: I seen him there for a few minutes. 23 Q: Well this is a -- this -- a report 24 has it that the reporter saw: 25 "Dozens of men at the main gate
1711 shouting insults at reporters who 2 occupied a tense no-man's land between 3 the natives and the Police. 4 Following one media foray near the 5 fence, the native leaders had a car 6 brought up. From the trunk they 7 unloaded baseball bats, fence posts and 8 crowbars. They made a show of 9 brandishing the weapons." 10 Do you recall that incident? 11 A: No. 12 Q: You were not there the whole time, I 13 gather, on September the 6th then, is that right? 'Cause 14 I think you've told us that from time to time you made 15 trips up to the barracks? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: At once -- 'cause at one stage your 18 evidence you say you just hung around there -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- on September the 6th, but to be 21 accurate, you hung around there but from time to time 22 also went up to the barracks? 23 A: Or other places, yeah. 24 Q: Or other places. Okay. So if this 25 event occurred as reported in the Windsor Star of
1721 September the 7th, you, at least, didn't observe it? 2 A: I didn't see nothing -- no -- nobody 3 done that. Didn't see it. 4 Q: And the report goes on that 5 "one of the natives said 'Watch out for 6 those guys in the bushes over there', 7 one yelled, pointing to a stand of 8 stunted trees and bushes, they're 9 watching you." 10 Do you remember anything like that? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And were there occupiers in the 13 bushes inside the Park, that is on -- along in the bushes 14 along the roadway at the bend in the roadway -- 15 A: There might have been. 16 Q: -- in the bushes? 17 A: I remember walking through there. 18 Q: Hmm? 19 A: I remember walking through there. 20 Q: You did? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And were the people -- were 23 there occupiers in there as a kind of observation post at 24 all? 25 A: No.
1731 Q: No? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Not that you know of? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Now let me ask you about the -- the 8 number of shots. You described to us what sounded like 9 literally dozens and dozens of shots being fired on -- in 10 and around the roadway, the bus and the car, on, you 11 know, late in the -- in the hours of September the 6th. 12 And you talked about the -- the -- there 13 were -- shots were so numerous that they were hitting the 14 roadway and bouncing up and they were, I think you said, 15 taking the leaves off the trees. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Yeah. And so can you give us your 18 estimate of how many shots you say were fired? I mean, 19 what are we talking about here? 20 A: I don't know. It's -- there was a 21 lot of them. 22 Q: Well what -- 23 A: It seemed like it was like at least 24 thirty (30) or forty (40) seconds they were shooting -- 25 Q: Because let me tell you, --
1741 A: -- I -- I couldn't count the bullets, 2 there was -- there was lots. 3 Q: Well let me tell you that the 4 evidence as I understand it is going to be, that there 5 was a total of seventeen (17) shots fired by six (6) 6 officers. And then Ken Dean, the evidence will be, shot 7 seven (7) shots himself. So that's a total of twenty -- 8 A: Yeah, there was more than seventeen 9 (17). I'd say there was a lot more than seventeen (17) 10 shots fired. 11 Q: And how much more? Can you give your 12 best estimate? 13 A: I'd say in the hundreds. At least 14 three hundred (300), it could be more. That many cops 15 firing all at once. 16 Q: Okay. And, Mr. George, you say that, 17 I think, the next day you found, was it one (1) or two 18 (2) casings? I'm sorry, I should look up your evidence, 19 I don't want -- it's not a trick, I just don't remember 20 whether it was one (1) or two (2). 21 A: I can't remember, I think it might 22 have been two (2). 23 Q: Okay. And you say you didn't really 24 -- you -- you looked but couldn't find any others, I 25 gather?
1751 A: No, I wasn't looking that hard. 2 Q: You weren't looking that -- but you 3 didn't see any others? 4 A: There was stuff all over the place, 5 people was picking up. 6 Q: Yeah. Did you see others picking up 7 casings? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And did you see the casings that 10 others had picked up? 11 A: Yeah. Some of them. 12 Q: And -- and how many casings did you 13 see, that others had picked up? 14 A: My brother picked up a couple. Heck, 15 there was -- there was people just picking them up. I 16 don't know who was all picking them up. I know pretty 17 much everybody that was there was looking for stuff. It 18 was all over the place. And I couldn't tell you -- 19 Q: I'm not talking about stuff, I'm only 20 talking about casings. 21 A: I couldn't tell you how many casings 22 there was picked up -- 23 Q: Hmm-hmm. 24 A: -- 'cause I don't know who -- how 25 many people were finding them, how many they were picking
1761 up. I could only just tell you what I was -- about two 2 (2) of them for me. 3 Q: But if you -- if there were three 4 hundred (300) shots fired, you'd expect a comparable 5 number of casing, wouldn't you? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Now, in P-23, that's Exhibit P-23, we 8 see a pile of sand in the parking lot. In fact, if we 9 look at the diagram that's behind you, P-67, there is 10 that pile of sand. 11 A: Right there? 12 Q: That's -- yes, that's it, it's the 13 pile of sand that moves in a, it appears to be on the 14 south side of the parking lot and it -- it projects into 15 the parking lot on P-67, so it's east of five (5) and 16 southwest of (6). 17 And you say that wasn't there that evening 18 on September the 6th? 19 A: No, I don't remember it being there. 20 Q: No. When do you first remember that? 21 A: When do I first remember that pile of 22 sand? 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: I don't know, probably when I -- 25 probably when I seen the video. I don't recall that pile
1771 of sand being there. 2 Q: Okay. And do you have idea why the 3 pile of sand was put there? 4 A: No. I think a road crew came and 5 scraped the -- the sandy area there, scraped it, or they 6 were scraping down the road or something, and they just 7 left it there, the road crews. 8 Q: Well, you see, here's the problem I 9 have with that answer, Mr. George, is that if it wasn't 10 there on the night of September the 6th, as I understand 11 the -- your occupiers had exclusive possession of this 12 area from that time, from September the 6th until this 13 diagram was made on September the -- September 18th, that 14 there was nobody else there in that area. 15 And, indeed, I think we heard there was a 16 blockade put up in that area, shortly after September the 17 6th, so I don't understand how a road crew would be in 18 scraping that area in that period of time. 19 A: Well, I don't remember that pile of 20 sand being there that night. 21 Q: Okay. Now let me ask you about the 22 spotlights. You had this very -- in fact, you said you 23 had two (2) very powerful spotlights when you lived at 24 the base and then in the barracks. 25 And what did you use those spotlights for?
1781 Do you use them for hunting? 2 A: Yeah, sometimes. Hunting, seeing in 3 the dark, shining the flashlight, you know. 4 Q: That's a good answer. That's usually 5 what they're for. But more specifically, the purpose I 6 take it, was -- one of them was hunting? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And what -- a flash or a powerful 9 light is used for in hunting at night, I take it, is to - 10 - is to blind the game that you're trying to hunt, 11 particularly deer, that the light stuns them, they 12 freeze, it's an easy shot. 13 A: Not always. 14 Q: Well that's the idea isn't it? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And when you went up to get 17 your spotlight to bring down to the Park on September the 18 6th, I take it you wanted it -- instead of to illuminate 19 deer or game, you wanted it to illuminate the Police? 20 A: Yeah, we wanted to see them. 21 Q: But for the same purpose to be able 22 to -- to -- to blind them, to stun them, so they couldn't 23 see well. Isn't that right? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Yeah. And in particular, rather than
1791 -- as you would shoot a deer with -- with a rifle, in 2 this case shining the light on the Police you would be 3 able to throw projectiles at them, stick -- stones and 4 sticks and so on, and they couldn't see them coming. 5 A: I'm not sure if that's what I was 6 thinking at the time. I can't recall. Probably just 7 light them up. 8 Q: Certainly that's the result, isn't 9 it? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And not only were you throwing sticks 12 and stones, you were also throwing burning sticks or 13 logs, weren't you? 14 A: I wasn't throwing no burning sticks. 15 Q: Well others were? 16 A: Somebody was. 17 Q: Some of your group were, right? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Yeah. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. The 24 Commissioner will be delighted to know that this is -- 25 that's -- those are my questions.
1801 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much, Mr. Roland. It's now 3:20. I guess we could 3 just carry on. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Downard 6 I think -- oh, I'm sorry. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, the Province 8 said they were going to go after, I believe, the OPP and 9 the OPPA, but I believe the Province doesn't have any 10 questions? 11 MS. SUE FREEBORN: That's correct. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No 13 questions? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Freeborn says 15 that's correct. Then, it's Mr. Harris and -- who's going 16 to ask questions now? Counsel for Mr. Harris. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I believe 18 Mr. Downard estimated an hour or so. Am I right? I 19 think Mr. Downard estimated an hour. Is that a fair 20 estimate? 21 MS. JENNIFER McALEER: It is a fair 22 estimate, Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 24 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER McALEER:
1811 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. My name 2 is Jennifer McAleer and I'm one of the lawyers who's 3 acting for former Premier Mike Harris. 4 Now you indicated to Mr. Millar that you 5 and your group decided approximately a week before Labour 6 Day that you would occupy the Park on Labour Day, because 7 that was the day that the Park closed, and after that 8 people would be gone. Do you recall telling Mr. Millar 9 that? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Now, isn't it the case that after 12 Labour Day, the Park simply closes to overnight camping 13 but that in previous years, the camp after Labour Day -- 14 or, sorry, the Park after Labour Day would have remained 15 open for day use? 16 A: I don't know, I'm not sure about that. 17 Q: Well, you had been at the army camp 18 since 1993? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: That's correct? And you had been very 21 familiar with the Provincial Park? 22 A: Somewhat. 23 Q: And you don't recall whether in 24 previous years the Park had remained open to day use, 25 even after it closed to overnight campers?
1821 A: I never knew what time the Park ever 2 closed at. Like, I'm not sure if it closed on Labour Day 3 or what. It was just closed at some point. I'm not sure 4 about when it was closed. 5 Q: Well, I understood your evidence to 6 Mr. Millar was that you and your group had specifically 7 chosen Labour Day because you expected that the Park 8 would be closed. 9 A: Yeah, I guess somebody knew it was 10 closing. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: I guess somebody might have known it 13 was closing, but I'm -- as far as I go, I wasn't aware of 14 what -- when it closed or not. 15 Q: That wasn't your understanding? 16 A: Yeah, I wasn't aware of when it 17 closed. 18 Q: Well, do you recall in past years, 19 then, after the Park closes to overnight camping that it 20 remains open for at least some period of time for day 21 use? 22 A: I'm not aware of that. 23 Q: Okay. Now, you testified that you and 24 your brother arrived on September 4th at approximately 25 5:00 or 5:30 in the early evening.
1831 Is it possible that you actually arrived 2 about two (2) hours later, 7:00 or 7:30 that night? 3 A: I'm not sure about the time. 4 Q: So you don't recall whether you 5 arrived at 5:00 or 5:30 or 7:00 or 7:30? 6 A: It was some time around then. 7 Q: Around -- within that window of 5:00 8 to 7:30? 9 A: Yeah, it was -- it wasn't quite dark 10 yet, like, it was just about to get dark. I don't know 11 what time it was, I don't carry -- never carried a watch 12 on me. 13 Q: Okay, so it's possible that it was 14 around 7:30? 15 A: I don't know. 16 Q: You don't know? 17 A: No, it was before dark, anyways. 18 Q: And is it possible that by the time 19 you had arrived another group had already entered the 20 Park? 21 A: There was cops in there, yeah. 22 Q: No, another group of occupiers from 23 the army camp? 24 A: I think there might have been guys 25 walking through, yeah, some time during the day. Just
1841 because we live beside the Park doesn't mean we've never 2 been walking through at different times. Everybody would 3 stroll through it at certain -- every now and then. 4 Q: So it's possible that you and your 5 brother were not among the first occupiers on September 6 4th? 7 A: I remember getting there and I 8 remember seeing cops on the parking -- on the picnic 9 table. 10 Q: Right, but when you then left those 11 officers and travelled through the Park, did you see 12 other members of your group in the Park? 13 A: Yeah, there -- there was some with us. 14 Q: People who hadn't come in with you and 15 your brother? 16 A: There was people coming in after we 17 opened the gate. There might have been a few people 18 walking through before, too. 19 Q: Now, you told us about the incident 20 between Judas and the OPP near the kiosk area. Do you 21 recall whether or not there were any MNR people present 22 during that incident? 23 A: I'm not sure, I think Les Kobiashi 24 might have been there. 25 Q: Okay. What about a man named Don
1851 Matheson? 2 A: I can't recall. He might have been 3 there, too. 4 Q: You know who Mr. Matheson is? 5 A: Yeah, I know who he is. 6 Q: Now, I'm going to suggest to you that 7 that incident between Roderick or -- or Judas and the OPP 8 actually took place approximately two (2) hours after you 9 and your brother had first entered the Park. 10 Does that seem like a fair estimate to 11 you? 12 A: Two (2) hours? I'm not sure about 13 that. I don't know, it was sometimes afterwards. 14 Q: Okay. Well, you -- you've indicated 15 to Mr. Millar that it was probably around 6:00 p.m. when 16 the police left the Park after that incident -- 17 A: Yeah, it was just getting dark. 18 Q: -- with Judas. 19 A: It was starting to get dark. 20 Q: Okay. Well, if -- if you actually 21 came into the Park a little bit later, which I think you 22 indicated you're not quite sure what time you came into 23 the Park -- 24 A: Yeah, I'm not sure. 25 Q: -- isn't it possible then, that the
1861 police actually ended up leaving after six o'clock? 2 A: I'm not sure. 3 Q: Okay. Now, you told us that during 4 that incident with Judas and the O.P.P., you had a 5 walking stick in your hand? 6 A: Yeah, something like that. 7 Q: Some people had bats, you indicated 8 and you had a stick. Do you recall that? 9 A: I think I might of had a stick. 10 Q: You think possibly you had something 11 else in your hand? 12 A: I'm just trying to think about it. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I can't -- I can't remember if I had 17 a stick or -- or what. 18 Q: Do you recall having something in 19 your hand? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I can't remember. 24 Q: Well, I thought -- 25 A: It might have been the stick. It
1871 might have been a stick. I can't remember what -- what 2 it was though, if it was a stick or a bat, or a pipe, or 3 whatever. 4 Q: Okay. So, you just don't recall what 5 you had in your hand, that you had something in your 6 hand? 7 A: Yeah. I can't recall. 8 Q: But -- you -- you can't recall 9 whether or not you had anything in your hand or you can't 10 recall what you think you had in your hand? 11 A: Yeah, I don't remember carrying 12 nothing. 13 Q: Pardon? 14 A: I don't -- like, I don't remember 15 carrying anything, like, right at that time. No, I don't 16 remember. 17 Q: Well, right at what time? 18 A: Whatever you're talking about. 19 Q: The incident between Judas and the 20 police at the kiosk. 21 A: Yeah. I don't remember having 22 anything at that time. I know I had a stick sometime 23 during the day but I don't -- at that -- right at that 24 moment, I'm not sure. 25 Q: Okay. Well, let's backtrack a little
1881 bit. You came into the park and you had a tire iron in 2 your hand as I understand it? 3 A: I got it from my car. 4 Q: Right. And you recall that? Hopped 5 over the fence you had a tire iron in your hand, correct? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And then at some point you 8 don't know what you did with the tire iron? 9 A: I think I probably put it back. 10 Q: Okay. And then I believe you told 11 Mr. Millar that you then picked up a stick in the park? 12 Now, are you telling me now you don't recall whether or 13 not you did that? 14 A: I might have picked a stick up, but I 15 don't remember if I had a stick in my had right at that 16 time or not. 17 Q: At the time with the incident -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- at the kiosk? Prior to that point 20 in time, I think you told us that you -- you hopped the 21 fence, the chain got cut, several cars came into the 22 Park -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- and then you proceeded towards the 25 maintenance shed; is that correct?
1891 A: Yeah. 2 Q: During that period in time, did you 3 at any point in time have a stick, or a bat, or some kind 4 of other implement in your hand? 5 A: I think I might have picked up a 6 stick, yeah; just walking around stick. 7 Q: But you don't remember when? 8 A: No. I can't remember if I had 9 anything -- I might of had it when I walked towards the 10 maintenance building, I might have left it around there 11 or something. 12 Q: Okay. And I take it that the purpose 13 in picking up the stick, was to have something to use as 14 a weapon if need be? 15 A: I think at the time I just picked it 16 up for walking. 17 Q: Because you needed it to walk? 18 A: Well I didn't need it to walk, but I 19 just -- I -- it's a habit of mine, picking stuff up, 20 sticks, a piece of driftwood or whatever, walking, I 21 don't know. 22 Q: But you mentioned that other people 23 had baseball bats? 24 A: Yeah. I couldn't remember if I had a 25 stick or whatever, or a bat, I couldn't remember, at the
1901 time when you are referring to. 2 Q: Okay. Well, you wouldn't have picked 3 up a baseball bat just to walk around with, I suggest to 4 you? 5 A: No. 6 Q: That the reason you'd pick up a 7 baseball bat is because you at least wanted to give the 8 impression that you could use that as a weapon if need 9 be. I mean, that's the point, isn't it, -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- walking around with a baseball 12 bat? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And the same -- 15 A: Self-protection. 16 Q: Pardon me? 17 A: Self-protection. 18 Q: Right. So, your intention was, that 19 if you had to use force to secure this park, you would? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: If the cops decided to attack us, 24 yeah, we'd protect ourselves. 25 Q: So when you say, "The cops decided to
1911 attack you," I take it you mean that if the cops, or of 2 any of the MNR people decided that they were forcibly 3 going to try and stop you -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- from occupying the Park, that you 6 would 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- have your baseball bat or your 9 stick to use that against the police officers or the MNR? 10 Is that correct? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Now you told us that when you were 13 walking towards the maintenance shed you came across a 14 couple of MNR people that were packing some stuff up. 15 Do you recall that? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And you indicated that you had a brief 18 conversation with them, that you said something like, Hi, 19 how's it going type thing and they responded by saying -- 20 oh, and you also indicated to them that you were just 21 checking things out and that they then responded, Sure, 22 go ahead and you indicated that they -- they didn't care. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Do you recall? 25 A: It seemed like they didn't care.
1921 Q: Okay. Now, were there two (2) people? 2 A: Two (2)? 3 Q: Two (2) MNR people? 4 A: I think there might have been a 5 couple, yeah. 6 Q: And you don't recall who they were? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And do you recall which one of them 9 said, Sure, go ahead? 10 A: I think it was, I don't know who he 11 was, but I remember he was a heavier set guy with a -- he 12 had a mustache, kind of balding or something. I think he 13 had some glasses on, too. I don't know his name, though. 14 Q: And you indicated they didn't seem to 15 care, but -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- the reality is, you don't really 18 know what they were thinking, do you? 19 A: No, I don't know what they were 20 thinking. 21 Q: And they may have said, Sure, go 22 ahead, just to avoid any kind of confrontation with you. 23 Isn't that possible? 24 A: That's possible. 25 Q: And at that time, do you recall if you
1931 had that bat or stick in your hand? 2 A: I think I might have, yeah. 3 Q: Now, you also told us that you heard a 4 -- I think you said -- heard a little bit of a 5 conversation between Les Jewel (phonetic) and another MNR 6 person about keys? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And you didn't hear all of that 9 conversation, did you? 10 A: No, I was just walking by. 11 Q: Okay. And at that point in time, as I 12 understood your evidence, Mr. Jewel already had the keys? 13 A: No, I think the guy was just giving 14 them over to him. He was talking about this key's for 15 this and that and that key's for that -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- kind of thing. 18 Q: But you didn't hear the conversation 19 that I would expect would have occurred between Mr. Jewel 20 and that MNR person prior to that point in time? 21 A: No. I don't recall hearing anything. 22 I was walking around checking the place out. Les was 23 talking to that guy. 24 Q: Now, isn't it fair to say, Mr. George, 25 that if those keys had not been handed over to you and
1941 your group, isn't it reasonable to assume that your group 2 would have used force to enter the buildings on the Park? 3 A: Probably. Not beating up MNR guys, if 4 that's what you were thinking about. 5 Q: No, I mean to -- to get into the 6 buildings. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: If you didn't have a key to open the 9 door. 10 A: Probably, yeah. 11 Q: Okay. Now, you also talked a little 12 bit about Les Kobiashi and Vince George coming out with 13 some papers in their hand and I believe you couldn't 14 recall if it was the evening of September 4th or the 15 evening of September 5th. 16 But you do recall them coming in to the 17 Park with some papers in their hand? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And I take it that you 20 understood at that point in time that the MNR didn't want 21 you and your group in the Park? 22 A: I guess so, yeah. 23 Q: That they were trying to give you 24 something to say, We want you out of the Park? 25 A: Probably.
1951 Q: And do you recall Burt Manning 2 (phonetic) being present when -- when Mr. Vince George 3 and -- I should say Constable Vince George and Mr. 4 Kobiashi came into the Park with those papers? 5 A: No, I don't think -- I don't think 6 Burt was there. I think it was just me and my brother. 7 Q: Okay. Now, you also indicated to Mr. 8 Millar that on the morning of September 6th you 9 remembered knocking down some more signs and I just kind 10 of picked up on the words 'some more'. 11 Had you knocked down some signs the 12 evening of September 4th? 13 A: I think there was a road sign I 14 knocked down. 15 Q: Recall doing anything else? 16 A: I know I knocked one sign down, 17 probably two (2) signs. I can't remember where they were 18 though. 19 Q: Do you remember seeing anybody else 20 knocking down signs? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Do you remember seeing any other 23 signs knocked down that you didn't knock them down so 24 somebody else must have? 25 A: No, I don't recall seeing any signs
1961 knocked down. 2 Q: Just the ones you knocked down? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. What about any other damage to 5 any of the buildings? 6 Do you recall seeing anybody trying to 7 pull boards off the side of the building? 8 A: No I don't remember seeing anyone 9 ripping boards off no buildings. 10 Q: Now you indicated that there were two 11 (2) reasons why you put the picnic tables into the sandy 12 parking lot. And one of the reasons you provided was 13 because the land was yours, that was part of the land 14 that your group was taking back. 15 Do you recall that? 16 A: Yep. 17 Q: And another reason you provided was 18 that you were probably to stop people from coming close 19 would want to do us harm and shut the area down? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Now if you're trying to stop people 22 from coming close, wouldn't it have made more sense for 23 you and your group to stay in the Park? You're trying to 24 avoid people. 25 Doesn't it make more sense to stay -- I
1971 mean, it's a big park, to stay within the Park? 2 A: I don't know, I guess so. 3 Q: In fact, when you move closer to the 4 road, it's easier for people to see you, isn't it? 5 A: I guess so. 6 Q: Now Mr. Orkin asked you about a 7 meeting that had occurred at the Forest Golf and Country 8 Club on December 8th, 1993. 9 Do you recall that? 10 A: I remember a meeting yeah. I don't 11 recall the date though. 12 Q: And do you recall who was at that 13 meeting? 14 A: Well there was a lot of people there. 15 Q: Apart from -- 16 A: DND guys. 17 Q: I'm sorry? 18 A: Department of National Defence guys. 19 Q: Do you remember any other government 20 representatives? 21 A: No, I don't. Don't recall any. 22 Q: And -- and I'm going to suggest to 23 you, Mr. George, that there in fact was nobody there from 24 the provincial government. 25 Does that seem accurate to you?
1981 A: I can't recall. 2 Q: You don't recall seeing anybody there 3 from the Provincial government? 4 A: No, I can't remember. 5 Q: And I believe your evidence was that 6 you didn't recall any other formal meetings to discuss 7 either the burial ground within the camp or the burial 8 ground in the Park? 9 A: I can't remember what days they were 10 on. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: I don't remember what days they were 13 on. 14 Q: Well I understood your evidence to be 15 that that was the only meeting that you even recall where 16 these issues were discussed with somebody from outside of 17 your group? Certainly the only one that you had 18 attended. 19 A: Yeah. I think that's -- I know there 20 was a lot of meetings. There was a lot of things spoke 21 about. As far as recalling, about the only one I 22 remember, there was a bunch of them. It's kind of hard 23 to keep track of every meeting. I don't carry a little 24 book around with me. 25 Q: But do you recall being at any other
1991 meetings with outside government people? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Now you told us that since your group 4 has taken over the Provincial Park, you have determined 5 that there are burial grounds within the Park, correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And as I understood it, the 8 first burial grounds that you were able to identify, were 9 when some woodcutters found some divets in the ground, is 10 that correct? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And -- and when you say divets in the 13 ground, are we talking about depressions in the ground? 14 A: Yeah, small ones, kind of like bumps, 15 not very deep, just kind of -- you could see like an 16 outline. 17 Q: Okay, you're making a little gesture 18 with your hand -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- is it about a foot deep? 21 A: No, not that deep. 22 Q: Not even that deep? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. And where these divets were, 25 there were some trees in that area?
2001 A: There was trees all over. 2 Q: Okay. So these -- these divets, they 3 weren't something that one would have noticed before the 4 woodcutters went in there and started cutting down the 5 trees, is that correct? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And do you recall when it is that the 8 woodcutters found these depressions in the ground? 9 A: No, I don't recall what day it was 10 on. I know it was after -- after we moved into the Park. 11 Q: Okay. Was it within the first year? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Well, if you moved in, in September, 14 was it before Christmas? 15 A: I don't know. I don't remember if it 16 was before Christmas or not. 17 Q: Okay. Now, apart from these divets 18 or depressions, was there any other evidence in that 19 particular area, that would indicate that this was a 20 burial site? 21 A: No. I -- I don't recall seeing 22 anything else. 23 Q: Now, you also indicated that a 24 medicine man had come in and that he had determined that 25 there was some burial sites under the roadway leading to
2011 the maintenance shed? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Now -- 4 A: Kind of along there probably. 5 Q: I'm sorry? 6 A: Well, on both sides of it too. 7 Q: Both sides of that road? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Well, who was this medicine man? 10 A: I think his name was -- we call him 11 Rockin' Ronnie, his name's Ronald Prew (phonetic), I 12 think his name -- his last name is. Ron Prew. 13 Q: And is he one (1) of the medicine men 14 that were trained to be a medicine man, that you had 15 talked about at the Army Camp? 16 A: Oh, no, this -- he was an older guy, 17 this guy. 18 Q: Where's he from? 19 A: I believe he's from Cape Crocker. 20 Q: Okay. And when did he come into the 21 Park and determine that there were burial grounds in this 22 area? 23 A: I'm not sure. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2021 A: I don't know exact day it was. 2 Q: Was it before or after the 3 woodcutters found the divets? 4 A: I think it was before. 5 Q: It was definitely after September 6 6th, 1995 though, was it? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And I take it when the 9 medicine man comes in, he's just able to tell where a 10 site is, even though to you or to me, there might not be 11 any sign of a burial ground there -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- is that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Was he able to tell you how 16 many burial sites there were? 17 A: No, I'm not sure. I think he just 18 said they were all over the place, that's kind of -- 19 that's why the road got closed down. 20 Q: Okay. So -- so that area now is -- 21 is closed down, your people are respectful of that 22 particular area? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And in the rest of the Park, you 25 carry out your day to day lives?
2031 A: No. 2 Q: You don't? 3 A: I don't carry out my day to day life 4 in the Park. 5 Q: Okay, well, let me be more 6 particular. In the rest of the Park you can have 7 picnics, is that right? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: You can go for a walk? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: You could go down to the beach, 12 correct? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Drive around? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. So, if this area were able to 17 be kind of cordoned off, and reserved, as a burial site, 18 would your group have any objection to then giving... 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I do not know that 20 this person can speak for his group. If it pleases, Mr. 21 Commissioner, she's now asking what his group would -- 22 she can ask about him. But as far as the group is 23 concerned, I am legal counsel and I don't even know how 24 many in the group. 25 MS. JENNIFER McALEER: Fair enough, fair
2041 enough. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 3 right. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER McALEER: 6 Q: As far as you are concerned, if that 7 area were set aside and the Province were to give an 8 undertaking that that area would be protected, would you 9 have any objection? 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Again, Mr. 11 Commissioner, this witness made it clear that everything 12 is done by consensus. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's not 14 speaking for anybody else. He's not speaking for 15 anybody else. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER McALEER: 18 Q: Again, if that area were put aside, 19 and the Province were to provide an undertaking that 20 they -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 22 Now, Mr. Henderson, you're touching all the buttons. 23 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: With respect, 24 Commissioner, Mr. Ross has addressed the witness in his 25 group. Counsel does not speak for her client's group
2051 either, he's the former Premier of the Province. 2 So a hypothetical presented by the 3 former Premier on behalf of the Province, is of 4 absolutely no value to the Commission, nor to its 5 intentions and we're not looking to develop a solution 6 to a particular problem late in this phase of the 7 Inquiry, that this is nothing but a hypothetical 8 proposition, you know, in subdividing a disputed piece 9 of land. 10 And, you know, if we're going to explore 11 that, I'm sure there are a number of counsel for many 12 parties behind me, who are going to be objecting all the 13 way down the line, and it doesn't take us anywhere. 14 MS. JENNIFER McALEER: Well, Mr. 15 Commissioner, my understanding of part of the mandate of 16 this Commission, is to try and prevent similar 17 circumstances in the future, and as I'm sure the 18 Commission is aware, it is an ongoing issue as to this 19 piece of property, it's still within the possession of 20 the people from the Army Camp and as I understand it, 21 the Province still lays claim to that particular piece 22 of land. 23 So, on a going-forward basis, I would be 24 very interested to know what this individual's view 25 would be, if in fact the Province were to agree to
2061 cordon off a particular area, -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 3 think -- 4 MS. JENNIFER McALEER: -- and reserve 5 it. 6 THE WITNESS: I think the whole Park's 7 full of burials. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, I think it's -- 9 personally, I -- I think it's a fair question. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Well 11 if you confine it to this particular witness, as to what 12 he thinks, and not try to enlarge it, I don't think it's 13 an improper question. We're all trying to find some 14 solution, some recommendation, some going-forward ideas. 15 So, if you confine it to this witness, I don't have a 16 problem. 17 Mr. Henderson, you still seem to have a 18 problem but let's see what happens. 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Again, 20 Commissioner, I -- I appreciate your direction, if we 21 can find one (1) witness who thinks this is a nice idea, 22 perhaps that's a contribution and it would be more of a 23 contribution if, for example, the Province were -- were 24 to say that there is some, you know, there's some error 25 of reality about any of this.
2071 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 2 know that -- 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Otherwise we can 4 go through this witness by witness and develop what 5 appears to be a consensus, and I -- but I think you've 6 already anticipated that. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The witness 8 is on the stand, the witness is answering questions, I 9 don't see a problem with this question at this time. 10 Let's see what happens. If we could down a road, then 11 we will have to return, but let's see what happens. Go 12 ahead. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER McALEER: 15 Q: Mr. George, do you -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think 17 you should answer this question. I'd like to take a 18 break, it's ten to four, and we are going to go until 19 about 5:00, but I think if you ask this question, let's 20 see what happens. 21 Have you got a ways to go? 22 MS. JENNIFER McALEER: No, I don't, Mr. 23 Commissioner, probably about ten (10), fifteen (15) 24 minutes after this. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I
2081 think we will ask this question and then we will take a 2 break. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER McALEER: 5 Q: Mr. George, do you remember the 6 question, or would you like me to rephrase it? 7 A: Vaguely. 8 Q: I'll rephrase. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Try to keep 10 it tight involving this particular witness. 11 MS. JENNIFER McALEER: Okay. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER McALEER: 14 Q: If the Province of Ontario were to 15 cordon off this particular area, where burial sites have 16 been identified, would you have any objection to the 17 Park then being returned to the people of Ontario? 18 A: Yeah, I'd object to it. 19 Q: On what basis? 20 A: 'Cause there is graves all through 21 there. He only went through part of the Park. 22 Q: The Medicine Man only went through 23 part of the Park? 24 A: Yeah. Yeah. 25 Q: Now, you and your group have had
2091 possession of that Park for ten (10) years now -- almost 2 ten (10) years, correct? And, sir, you have to say, yes 3 for the record. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And within that ten (10) years, as I 6 understood it, nobody's come up with any other evidence 7 that there are other burial sites in the Park; Is that 8 correct? 9 A: I think the same Medicine Man said 10 there was others -- there was others all spread out 11 through there. There's graves up there by the 12 pumphouse, too. The -- the pumphouse is sitting right 13 on top of them. There's graves on the point. 14 Q: But that doesn't prevent you and your 15 group from using the Park, does it? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. And I take it by analysis 18 then, there wouldn't be any reason for me to go in there 19 and walk along the beach or have a picnic there? 20 A: I don't know, you'd have to go to the 21 gate and ask -- 22 Q: Exactly. Maybe we could take a 23 break, then. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is a 25 good time to break. Thank you very much.
2101 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 2 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 3:55 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 4:10 p.m. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 8 Q: Mr. George, Mr. Orkin asked you a 9 couple of questions about the removal of the Provincial 10 signs within the Provincial Park and in particular he 11 had asked you if by removing the signs from the 12 Provincial Park, you were reasserting your peoples' 13 original ownership of the land and you answered: 14 "Yes, because after they took our 15 land they put up those signs and then 16 they lied about giving it back. They 17 never did, so down came the signs." 18 Do you recall that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Now, was it your understanding at the 21 time that you occupied the Park in September of 1995 22 that the Provincial Park had been part of the land that 23 had been appropriated by the Federal Government and that 24 there had been a promise that the Provincial Parklands 25 would be given back to your ancestors?
2111 A: No, my understanding about that is 2 that the -- the land was basically stolen. It was given 3 up against the rights of the people. 4 Q: And when you say, "the land," you're 5 talking about the Provincial Park? 6 A: Yeah, all -- all our land, too, all 7 around it. Like, there was land that was -- there's 8 Canada Company had a lease on it or something for the 9 timber rights and they just ended up turning around and 10 selling it off. And then there's the bog. That was all 11 -- people were leasing it and then they just started -- 12 they drained it all and they started selling it. 13 Q: I -- I'm going to ask you some 14 questions about the bog, but just with respect to the 15 Provincial Park right now. So, -- so we're clear, the 16 Provincial Park is a very different situation than the 17 army camp, that there was no promise to give your people 18 back the Provincial Park? 19 A: I don't remember hearing a promise. 20 Q: Okay. So, when you indicated to Mr. 21 Orkin that they had promised to give the land back, they 22 didn't give the land back, therefore I took the signs 23 down, you 24 were -- 25 A: Hmm hmm.
2121 Q: -- a little bit confused then with 2 the Provincial Park and the army camp; is that fair? 3 A: No, well, it's all kind of tied in 4 together. It's all -- it was our land. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And these Indian agents, they come 7 out and they just messed everything up for us. 8 Q: Okay. So, when -- when you say, 9 "they messed up and it's all tied in together" -- 10 A: Yeah, the Indian agents -- 11 Q: Okay, but do you mean that the 12 Provincial issues and the Federal issues are tied in 13 together as far as you're concerned? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: It's -- it's all the same to you is 16 it? 17 A: Yeah, it's foreign government. 18 Q: Okay. Now, you mentioned the bog 19 and you had made reference to the bog in your first day 20 of testimony when Mr. Millar had asked you about when is 21 it that you first thought about going in and taking the 22 Provincial Park. 23 And you indicated that that was something 24 that your group always talked about, just about the Park 25 and all the lands that had been taken away, your hunting
2131 grounds, and then you indicated they took all the land 2 and drained it all, because it used to be a bog? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: What -- what land are you talking 5 about? 6 A: That's the -- to the east, going 7 towards Grand Bend. It would be this way. 8 Q: So, we have Exhibit 63 on the 9 screen. Could -- do you have that laser pointer? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Great. Can you show me where the 12 bog is on Exhibit 63? 13 A: The bog is on this side. Right over 14 here. 15 Q: Okay. So, that's east of the army 16 camp boundary. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: East of the eastern army camp 19 boundary. And does the bog continue off the screen? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Or can we see it all on that Exhibit 22 63? 23 A: Yeah. It continues off. It goes 24 right up to Goderich. 25 Q: And -- sorry, on -- on what basis do
2141 you say that that land where the bog was is part of your 2 ancestral grounds? 3 A: My grandpa used to tell me about it. 4 And I've heard other people talk about it and Maynard T. 5 George had some stuff done up on it. He researched it. 6 Q: And how far -- sorry? 7 A: He done some research on it and 8 found old documents of treaties. 9 Q: And how far east does that bog 10 extend? 11 A: It goes almost to Grand Bend, I 12 guess, but It's pretty far. 13 Q: And -- and just so we're clear. 14 That's not part of the land that was expropriated by the 15 Federal Government in 1942? 16 A: No, it wasn't part of -- it wasn't 17 part of this. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: No -- 20 Q: And when you say this, you -- you 21 mean the army camp that's within the square in Exhibit 22 63? 23 A: Yeah. It was this whole place here 24 was a lot bigger and like all of this land over here was 25 leased to the Canada Company and then it was sold off.
2151 And all this land over here leased out and it was sold 2 off. And all this land down here was leased out and it 3 was sold off just because there was no one left here to 4 contest anything that was done. 5 Q: Okay. Let -- let's start on the 6 west. You said that west of the -- west of Army Camp 7 Road you pointed out an area and you said that that had 8 been leased by the Canadian Company? 9 A: Canada Company. Yes. 10 Q: Canada Company? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And is it your position that that 13 land had been part of the reserve? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. Do you know when it was 16 leased by the Canada Company. 17 A: I can't tell you the exact date. 18 I'd have to go and get some papers and tell you then. 19 Q: Okay. And was it your understanding 20 that was leased by the Federal Government after they 21 took the reserve in 1942? 22 A: I can't remember if it's Federal or 23 Provincial. Canada Company is whatever they'd be. 24 Q: Okay. Is it your understanding that 25 this lease took place prior to 1942?
2161 A: Yes. 2 Q: In the 1800's? 3 A: The Indian agents messed a lot of 4 things up. 5 Q: Okay. Now, you -- you also said 6 that there was something else going on, on the east side 7 of the property and -- and I -- I -- sorry, I didn't 8 quite catch what you were referring to. You said there 9 was -- there was -- there a similar lease issue on the 10 east side of the army camp? 11 A: Yeah. Yeah that's where the bog 12 was, all on this side. 13 Q: Okay. And is it -- is it the bog 14 issue that we were talking about or is it something 15 else? 16 A: Well, our whole territory was a lot 17 bigger than this, and Indian Agents come along and 18 messed everything up, they were selling everything off. 19 Q: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 21 sure what we're talking about anymore. 22 MS. JENNIFER McALEER: No, I -- I'm -- 23 THE WITNESS: This -- this goes way 24 back. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's
2171 flowing into each other, and it's getting a little 2 confusing. 3 MS. JENNIFER McALEER: Okay. 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, this goes back 5 pretty far. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER McALEER: 8 Q: Well, was it your position in -- in 9 1995, in September of 1995 that you were going to take 10 steps to recover -- 11 A: What little piece that we got. 12 Q: -- pieces of land that had 13 previously been taken from your ancestors? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And starting with the Army 16 Camp in 1993, that was the first step? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And then taking the 19 Provincial Park in September of 1995, that was the 20 second step? 21 A: Yeah, after the base. 22 Q: Okay. And then -- and then if you 23 had your way, would you then continue to take more land? 24 A: If I could, yeah, I'd take it all 25 back. If I could get it back myself, yeah, I would.
2181 Q: Okay. And was that a view that was 2 held by others in your group, that you -- you discussed 3 with one (1) another in September of 1995? 4 A: Maybe for some, I don't know, I 5 can't speak for everybody else, but I myself, I'm just 6 picking up on all of this stuff as I go along. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Like I'm finding out more and more 9 stuff that happened that these people done, like these 10 Indian Agents, I'm finding out more and more stuff, like 11 I wasn't aware of everything that I know now, back then. 12 Q: Okay. But back in 1995, were there 13 discussions about the bog and discussions about -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- this land that had been leased to 16 the Canada Company? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. Now you also referred to 19 cottages that I believe were marked on Exhibit 63, at 20 number 13. 21 Do you have Exhibit 63 in front of you? 22 A: Sixty-three (63)? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: No. 25
2191 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. JENNIFER McALEER: Right, but there 4 was a version he had marked up. 5 THE WITNESS: That wouldn't be this 6 thing would it? 7 MS. JENNIFER McALEER: No. 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 THE WITNESS: Thanks. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER McALEER: 15 Q: Now, if you look closely in the top 16 right hand corner of Exhibit 63, there are -- there are 17 two (2) little numbers there, there's a number 14 and 18 then right below it there's a number 13? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And if I remember your evidence 21 correctly, number 14 is where the cement blocks were 22 that you painted, is that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And number 13 is where there are 25 some cottages?
2201 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you had indicated that the 3 cottages are still on our land? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: I just wanted to be clear, those are 6 the cottages you were talking about? The ones that are 7 marked in Exhibit 13? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Sorry, marked with the number 13 on 10 Exhibit 63? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And those cottages -- those cottages 13 are on land, that in your opinion, belongs to your Band? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now you also told Mr. Rosenthal, 16 that your land extended west up to the next highway past 17 Ravens Wood. Do you recall -- 18 A: Yeah, it goes right up -- 19 Q: -- telling Mr. Rosenthal that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And where exactly is that? 22 Where -- where past Ravens Wood? 23 A: Just pretty much right at Ravens 24 Wood, the crossroads there. 25 Q: Okay. Does that road have a name?
2211 A: I'm not sure of it. 2 Q: Is it -- is it Centre Ipperwash 3 Road? 4 A: I'm not sure. 5 Q: Okay. And when you say that your 6 land extends to that -- that road at the crossroads at 7 Ravens Wood, do you mean right from Lake Huron, right up 8 to Highway 21? 9 A: Well it goes past Highway 21 to 10 south. 11 Q: So we start at that intersection, we 12 go north to Lake Huron, west all the way to the army 13 camp and then we go south, even further south than 14 Highway 21? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And it's your position that all of 17 that land should be returned to you and your people? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Is that something else that you 20 discussed with your fellow occupiers since September of 21 1995? 22 A: Not that far. We were more or less 23 talking about the Pinery and the bog area. 24 Q: The Pinery? 25 A: They were -- Maynard T. George was
2221 bringing up documents that showed us our original 2 boundaries and stuff and it was a lot bigger than what's 3 here. 4 Q: Okay. And that was something you 5 had discussed before the incident with the OPP, before 6 the shooting incident with the OPP in 1995? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now finally, you indicated to Mr. 9 Rosenthal when he asked you what the "OPP WHO" car 10 meant. You indicated that that was the way of saying 11 that you didn't recognize the police. And that in fact 12 you don't recognize them, the Crown or the Queen. Do 13 you recall that? You have to say yes. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now I take it that if that was your 16 view, in -- was that your view in September of 1995? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: So I take it if that was your view 19 in September of 1995, that it didn't matter to you 20 whether or not you violated any provincial or federal 21 laws in order to occupy the Provincial Park? 22 A: I'm not aware of whatever laws are 23 federal or provincial. 24 Q: Okay. Let's just say any laws. 25 A: Not on our land.
2231 Q: Okay. So it was your view that in 2 order to take your land, being the Provincial Park, that 3 it didn't matter whether you violated any laws that were 4 not your people's laws? 5 A: Well there was no more laws there 6 after 7 -- after we went in there. 8 Q: Okay. So once you take the 9 Provincial Park foreign law is that -- 10 A: Yeah. Foreign law. 11 Q: -- foreign being non Aboriginal law? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: It doesn't apply? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. George, those 16 are all my questions. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I've 20 been advised that Mr. Beaubien -- Mr. Sulman on behalf 21 of Mr. Beaubien has no questions and that the 22 Municipality of Lambton Shores have no questions. They 23 had indicated they might and Ms. Debbie Hutton, counsel, 24 has indicated they have no questions. So the next 25 person would be Mr. Ross.
2241 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 2 Ross...? This is Mr. Ross' clients so you get -- 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I do not know, Mr. 4 Commissioner, how much time I had suggested but I can 5 tell you I'll divide it by four (4) whatever it was. 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 8 Q: Mr. George, there are one or two 9 (2) questions I would just like to -- one or two (2) 10 matters I'd just like to clear up. I think I will start 11 the last series of questions that were directed to you. 12 Ms. McAleer on behalf of Mr. Harris, 13 wanted to know about how much land that if it was up to 14 you, if you had your own way, would you take more land 15 and you indicated that yes, you would take it all. She 16 then asked and what I would like to ask then, would this 17 be of taking in your name personally? 18 A: No. Not in my own name. For my 19 people. 20 Q: There's a question of on behalf of 21 your people. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And wherever this land is, that's 24 the general view that you have got? 25 A: Yeah.
2251 Q: I see. Now if we just restrict 2 ourselves to the exhibit, Exhibit 63 which is on the 3 board. 4 Now you realize the outline of the camp, 5 of what was the camp? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you recognize the area of what 8 was the Park? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And those two (2) areas are now 11 occupied by your people? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And are you looking forward to 14 having those lands returned, as a first step, in 15 whatever venture you are taking with respect the lands? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, Mr. George, at one stage, I do 18 not recall who you were -- who you were being examined 19 by, but it appeared as though this -- the occupation of 20 the Camp and later the occupation of what was a 21 Provincial Park, started as a peaceful occupation which 22 turned violent. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Without going very far afield, could 25 you perhaps try to advise the Commissioner, who wasn't
2261 there, on how did this go from a peaceful occupation to 2 violence resulting in a death? 3 A: His -- it's the Government that was 4 in power of the day that -- the way they operated back 5 then with stealing our land. 6 Q: No, but the land is already gone. 7 What I want you to do is just narrow it down. What -- 8 you'll see -- remember the terms of reference. The 9 Commissioner wants to know: (a) How to prevent a 10 situation like this from happening again. 11 Now, we know the land has already been 12 taken and you're already in occupation, and it leads to 13 violence. 14 In your view, what could have been done 15 to prevent this violence that occurred on the 6th of 16 September 1995? 17 A: If the Government just done what 18 they promised to do in the first place, you know, none 19 of this would have happened. 20 Q: I see. And recognizing they didn't 21 do what they were supposed to do, and you went and you 22 occupied the Park, the Camp and the Park, then how did 23 that -- how did that -- that occupation turn from 24 peaceful to violent? 25 A: Just the way the, like, the cops
2271 were acting, like, the way they come in with their 2 picnic tables ramming everybody. They didn't give a 3 damn about whose -- anybody's life. 4 Q: So you attribute a lot of the -- the 5 escalation to police conduct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And in the face of this police 8 conduct, is there anything that -- any option that you 9 and your group felt you had at that time? What could 10 you do to prevent the violence? 11 A: Probably we could have left, I don't 12 know. 13 Q: Yes, and if you had left, on the 6th 14 of -- on the 6th of September, where would you go? 15 Could you go back to Kettle Point by then? 16 A: No, probably not. 17 Q: So where would you go? 18 A: Probably somewhere, London maybe. 19 Q: I see. Okay. Now -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 21 I didn't hear your answer. I didn't hear it. 22 THE WITNESS: Probably go to London or 23 something. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS:
2281 Q: Oh yes, you personally. But as far 2 as your entire group is concerned, the whole group 3 couldn't go to London? 4 A: No. I don't know what they would 5 to. 6 Q: I see. 7 A: Go back to Kettle Point maybe for -- 8 to face persecution by the people down there, I don't 9 know. Not all of the people down are against us. I 10 know a lot of people are though. 11 Q: Okay. Now, did you know Abraham 12 George? 13 A: Abraham George? 14 Q: Yeah, Robert's father? 15 A: Yeah. Hamster. 16 Q: How -- pardon me? 17 A: Hamster? 18 Q: Hamster. Where did he get the name 19 Hamster? 20 A: I don't know, I think somebody just 21 start calling him Hamster 'cause it's Abraham. 22 Q: That's my point. So the same way 23 that you got Abraham translating into Hamster, what can 24 you tell me about the bass that you almost shot, you 25 call it what?
2291 A: Pardon? 2 Q: The bass, you remember you almost 3 shot a bass, the fish? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And after that then you wound up 6 putting some writings on your shotgun? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And you -- your -- your words during 9 examination, you know, bass -- bastard? 10 A: Yeah, sometimes we call bass 11 bastards, because -- 12 Q: I see. 13 A: -- you know bastards, they -- you 14 know fish -- fish turd or whatever, bass turds. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Now, Mr. -- Mr. Roland mentioned to 18 you an unnamed visitor, who visited the camp at an 19 undefined time, and saw a guy who was five (5) foot ten 20 (10), heavy set, pock-marked face, long brown hair, grey 21 at the temples. 22 Does this ring a bell with you with 23 anything? 24 A: No. 25 Q: I see, and I note that he didn't
2301 tell you the name of this visitor. Now, tell me about 2 your Warrior Society. I saw the -- the minutes of that 3 first meeting, you recall the minutes? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And as I recall reading the minutes, 6 there's a section in there that part of your -- your -- 7 what you will put together forward, just stay away from 8 drugs, you stay away from -- from booze -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- and you help elders. Now, there 11 -- there is a broad connotation when one hear Warrior 12 Society to think of violence. 13 I must ask you: Was there a military 14 component to your Warrior Society? 15 A: The only thing military about it is 16 we were on the base, we -- that's about the only thing 17 military about it. 18 Q: It doesn't matter, you happened to 19 be on a base? 20 A: Yeah -- 21 Q: But you had your Warrior Society and 22 you were down at Kettle Point, there would be absolutely 23 no military connection? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Now, when you were being examined or
2311 -- again, by Mr. Roland, just after lunch, he was 2 speaking about the clash or the clashes between the OPP 3 and the group who are -- and the group of occupiers. 4 Do you recall that discussion? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And he was speaking about the 7 clashes and the Police backing off, and every time you 8 mentioned Slippery, he said we will get to Slippery, but 9 I don't think we ever got to Slippery, so I'm going to 10 give you the opportunity. 11 Just very quickly, we don't want it too 12 long, just tell us the sequence of events from the clash 13 until the shooting of Dudley George? 14 A: Well, right from the clash, as soon 15 as they started backing up -- 16 Q: First, how did the clash happen? 17 Did you move to the Police or did they move to you? 18 A: No, they came to us. 19 Q: They came to you and you had a 20 clash? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And were there any physical 23 exchanges during this clash? 24 A: The -- what are you talking about, 25 the first time they come out?
2321 Q: You know, you guys with your clubs, 2 they with their trungens? 3 A: I'm not sure if anybody got hit over 4 the fence the first time they come up -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- because when we got right into it 7 after Slippery went down. 8 Q: Oh, no, no, talk about the first 9 time -- 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: -- the first time you said that they 12 came up there was a clash, and then what happened? 13 A: They just backed off and then they 14 were doing their manoeuvre things, moving their lines 15 around, getting all fancy. And they just charged us 16 again. 17 Q: And they came back again? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Yes? Now, between the first clash 20 and when they came back again, where was Slippery? 21 A: He was on our side. 22 Q: Yes. And now there's this second 23 clash and then what happens after that? 24 A: After that they start backing up, 25 Slippery went out and he tried to talk --
2331 Q: Stop a minute, so now there's a 2 second clash and they back away? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay, and then what happened? Tell 5 me about Slippery now? 6 A: Then he went out there to try and 7 talk them down, and try and stop what -- get them to 8 stop doing what they're doing. And they just charged 9 him, they run him over. 10 Q: Charged, and they got him? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So that's the third charge? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And then what happened after they 15 got Slippery? 16 A: They backed off after they dragged 17 him and then we -- we come out and then -- then they 18 charged us again. 19 Q: Oh, yes, so you said they backed 20 off. When they backed off, did they release Slippery or 21 did they back off -- 22 A: No, no. 23 Q: -- and pulling him away? 24 A: They were dragging him, they were 25 beating the hell out of him.
2341 Q: I see. And -- and I take it that 2 that's what triggered the -- the bus and the car 3 incident going out of the Park? 4 A: Yes, because they weren't stopping. 5 We thought they would stop, you know, after he was 6 subdued, but they just kept on doing it. 7 Q: Right. Now, the other thing is, I 8 think it was still Mr. Roland, yes, was speaking about 9 hunting and using lights to blind the animals so that 10 they were a standing shot and easy shot. 11 And he went on to suggest that you 12 brought the lights down to shine at the Police with the 13 same blinding effect. 14 Was this something that was thought out, 15 that we're going to go down there and shine the lights 16 on the police and when we've got them blind we can do 17 what we want? 18 A: No, it wasn't thought out. Because 19 I had to run back up and get it. I figured could be 20 something useful to light up the area because it was 21 pretty dark. 22 Q: Now, Mr. George, apart from the fact 23 that Dudley got shot and killed, is there anything that 24 happened between your occupation on 1993 and now that 25 you really regret?
2351 A: Is there anything I regret? 2 Q: We've taken out, apart from the 3 death of Dudley George. 4 A: I don't think so. No. 5 Q: So you still think it was a good 6 idea to occupy the rifle range in 1993? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And you still think it was a good 9 idea to occupy the army base in July of 1995? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you still think it was a good 12 idea to take back the Park in September of 1995? 13 A: Yeah. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you very much, 15 sir. No more questions. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. 18 Do you have any re-examination Mr. 19 Millar? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I just have one (1) 21 question and it arises out of the questions of Ms. 22 McAleer. 23 24 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: The Canada Company lands that you
2361 referred to, are they the lands that run from Army Camp 2 Road west to the road at Ravenswood? 3 A: Yes. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. Those are 5 my questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 9 Mr. George. It's been four (4) days but thank you. 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Before we go, Mr. 11 Commissioner, there was something that Mr. George had 12 indicated to me that he'd like to say to you and I think 13 this might be the most appropriate forum. 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'd just like to 15 say thanks to Commission and everybody else to have the 16 understanding about the funeral, Hosie's funeral, 17 letting me take off early there last day. I'd just like 18 to say thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 22 Mr. George. 23 24 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 25
2371 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 I just have a few comments. Are you going to say 3 something? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. After you're 5 finished with your comments, sir, and Mr. George, you 6 can step down. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much, Mr. George, for your patience. 9 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I just wanted to 11 alert everyone we have -- tomorrow morning we're going 12 to be calling Mr. Stuart George and there's some 13 additional documents that we're going to hand out before 14 everyone leaves tonight. So, I just want to remind 15 everybody. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. Just before we leave, before we conclude the 18 proceedings today, I want to make a few comments, a 19 brief on the progress of the Inquiry. 20 And this may be the first of periodic 21 observations that I make during the course of the 22 Inquiry and I think the timing for these observations is 23 appropriate. We've now completed the first full two (2) 24 months of evidentiary hearings and I've had an 25 opportunity to reflect on how we're progressing and to
2381 look forward to the next few weeks and months. 2 The first thing I want to do is note some 3 of our successes. In my view, the hearings have been 4 running smoothly, almost without incident. And where 5 there have been technical or other issues, these have 6 been resolved relatively quickly. 7 And this is not as easy as it appears and 8 I want to commend the Hearing room staff, the behind- 9 the-scenes-of-the Inquiry staff and the community centre 10 staff for their hard work. I also want to commend out- 11 of-town counsel. Parties and others who have made the 12 transition to Forest seamlessly. And I know this hasn't 13 been easy either, either personally or professionally 14 and I want to acknowledge your efforts. 15 And, finally, I want to commend all 16 counsel for their professionalism, hard work and high 17 degree of cooperation with the Commission and with each 18 other. The sheer volume of documentary and other 19 material has made this a daunting task but, again, with 20 only a few exceptions, everything seems to be working 21 smoothly. 22 Now, notwithstanding those successes, I 23 am increasingly concerned about the pace of the 24 proceedings. We're simply moving too slowly. This 25 isn't a serious problem yet, but, in my view it could
2391 become one and it is a situation that requires our 2 attention - and sooner rather than later. Lengthy 3 delays and extensions have potential to undermine the 4 credibility of the Inquiry. 5 A Public Inquiry process always entails a 6 delicate balancing of thoroughness and efficiency. We 7 always try to not be too broad on the one hand and not 8 be too narrow on the other. 9 And many who actively support the general 10 objectives of a Public Inquiry, also have legitimate 11 concerns regarding the length of time it takes and the 12 costs involved. This is a publically-funded process. 13 Many of the parties to this Inquiry are receiving public 14 funding to participate. 15 Accordingly, the public has a right to 16 expect us to undertake our work, not only with 17 thoroughness, but, also with economy and efficiency in 18 mind. As you know, the Commissioner and Commission 19 Counsel have a responsibility to manage the Inquiry 20 process. 21 And in that regard, we are re-committing 22 ourselves to ensuring that we can fulfill our mandate 23 with thoroughness, but, also within a reasonable time. 24 And we intend to continually monitor our process 25 according to that standard.
2401 Commission Counsel have taken 2 considerable time and care with early witnesses to 3 establish background and context in some detail; and 4 Counsel have, as well. It may not be necessary to 5 repeat the same level of detail with every witness. 6 And accordingly, Commission Counsel have 7 advised that they intend to narrow the scope of their 8 examination for some of the forthcoming witnesses into a 9 more specific time frame. 10 Now, obviously, we couldn't manage this 11 process alone. Parties to this Inquiry have differing 12 objectives and expectations. Clearly, Counsel have a 13 duty to represent and to protect their client's 14 interests and these remarks are not directed to any 15 particular Counsel or party. 16 But, I think it's important for me to 17 remind everyone of the statement I made at the opening 18 of our Hearings on Standing and that is as follows: 19 A Public Inquiry is not a trial. The 20 Commission has not been established to revisit judgments 21 already passed, nor to investigate criminal offences or 22 assign civil liability. While the Commission may 23 determine wrongdoing, it does not find anyone guilty of 24 a crime, nor does it establish civil responsibility for 25 monetary damages.
2411 Because this is a Public Inquiry, there's 2 an element of public education, as part of its mandate. 3 And because, in my view, it's also important to 4 establish the context of events, that is, cultural, 5 historical or otherwise, I believe, it's appropriate to 6 allow some latitude regarding Counsel's questions. 7 However, we can't lose sight of our 8 mandate, as set out in our Order in Council: To 9 investigate into and to report on the events surrounding 10 the death of Dudley George and to make recommendations 11 directed to the avoidance of violence and similar 12 circumstances. 13 Therefore, I'm respectfully asking all 14 Counsel to strengthen their efforts to ensure that their 15 cross- examinations and interventions add value to the 16 Inquiry mandate. 17 I'm also encouraging Counsel to 18 communicate with Commission Counsel, regularly, with any 19 suggestions or recommendations they may have as to how 20 we can continue to work together to complete our work 21 fairly, thoroughly and in a manner that is economically 22 responsible. 23 That's it. We'll see you all tomorrow 24 morning at 10:00 a.m. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir.
2421 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 2 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, November 2nd, at 3 10:00 a.m. 4 5 --- Upon adjourning at 4:47 p.m. 6 7 8 9 10 Certified Correct, 11 12 13 14 15 ____________________ 16 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25