11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 31st, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 20 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 21 Anna Perschy ) (np) 22 Melissa Panjer ) 23 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 9 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 250 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-440 Document 1009047 News Release from 4 OPP September 07/'95 re: September 5 06/'95 Stopping of First Nations 6 Persons by OPP 87 7 P-441 Document 1009048 News Release from 8 OPP September 07/95 re: Road Closure 9 - Highway No. 21 Ipperwash Park Incident 142 10 P-442 Document No. 100891 Honourable Justice 11 Daulin's injunction September 07/'95 165 12 P-443 Document No. 1003489 Honourable Justice 13 Flinn's Order September 08/'95 165 14 P-444A Transcript of Audio logger selected 15 tracks September 5 to 7/'95 Volume 1 169 16 P-444B Transcript of Audio logger selected 17 tracks September 5 to 7/'95 Volume 2 169 18 P-445 Two Photographs of OPP ASP Baton, No. 19 1 - Baton in closed position (7") No. 20 2 - Baton in extended position (26") 190 21 P-446 Document No. 1004456 Inventory of weapons 22 seized as part of SIU investigation 207 23 P-447 Photograph of CMU (Crown Management Unit) 24 fully uniformed in 1995 216 25
71 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-448 Photographs of uniforms, shield 4 helmet with face shield, shoulder 5 leg and arm guards, protective 6 gloves, worn in 1995 220 7 P-449 Photograph of Wooden baton 224 8 P-450 Photographs of large and small 9 containers of pepper spray 225 10 P-451 Photographs of TRU team uniform 227 11 P-452 Videotape taken by Whitehead and 12 Dyke September 05/'95, 1:45 pm. 234 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 2 3 4 5 6 7 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 10 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 11 presiding. Please be seated. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 morning. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: One (1) of the issues 17 that had been raised by Counsel yesterday was to obtain a 18 copy of the -- in electronic form -- of Exhibit P-437, 19 which was the map that we used electronically with the 20 checkpoints marked on it. 21 Due to the size of the file we attempted 22 to -- we were going to distribute by e-mail and we -- we 23 haven't been able to do that because of the size of the 24 file, so we're trying to figure out a different way to 25 get it to those people who would like to get an
91 electronic copy. And we'll deal with that, but I just 2 wanted to let everybody know. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me, 9 Commissioner. I have a technical problem. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have to 11 plug in. That's the technical problem is it? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The technical problem 13 is it helps to... 14 15 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 16 17 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 18 Q: Deputy Carson, yesterday at the end 19 of the day we were discussing your telephone call with 20 Inspector Parkin at -- which appears in the book of 21 transcripts at Tab 62. And it was Call Number 66. 22 And there's a -- we played this last night 23 but there's a voice in the background that provided you 24 with the name of the -- with Dudley George's name and the 25 name of Nicholas Cottrelle at pages 3 -- in the
101 transcript it's page 384. 2 And do you -- did you recognize the person 3 who was speaking at the time you heard it yesterday. 4 A: Yes. I believe that was Mark Wright. 5 Q: Sergeant Mark Wright? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And the -- with respect to this 8 conversation, you spoke to Inspector -- excuse me, 9 Superintendent Parkin with respect to a press release and 10 a window of opportunity; do you recall that? 11 A: That's correct, yes, hmm hmm. 12 Q: And the -- why did you want to issue 13 a press release? 14 A: Well, in any incident where there is 15 injury or death, the Special Investigations Unit will be 16 notified and there'll be an investigation. Upon their 17 invoking the mandate of SIU, they take total control of 18 the investigation and the subsequent press releases 19 relative to the incident. And we had the opportunity 20 between the time of the event and until such time as SIU 21 invokes their mandate to have some of the facts disclosed 22 publicly. 23 As -- as was indicated, there was much 24 media in the area. We knew we were going to get asked a 25 lot of questions to -- well a couple of concerns. One
111 concern of course is that we get asked questions and 2 provide an answer, such as no comment. You know, we 3 refer them to SIU. It's not very satisfactory and it's 4 seen as being noncompliant on our part from the media's 5 perspective. 6 So there was one (1) opportunity for us to 7 -- to get some facts out as we knew them. And I felt it 8 was important that in the public interest and to satisfy 9 the media expectation as well, is that we provide what 10 information we had at that point. 11 And then from there on, excuse me, we'd be 12 able to point them to SIU as the investigation moved 13 along. 14 Q: So once the SIU had invoked its 15 mandate, the OPP could no longer issue any press 16 releases? 17 A: They -- they would direct us, as a 18 normal course, that they will handle all press from here 19 on. 20 Q: And was it -- in addition to the 21 reasons that you've told us with respect to a press 22 release, was one of the reasons why you wanted to put out 23 a press release was to put the OPP's versions of the 24 events on the record? 25 A: Well, the facts as we know it -- knew
121 it would be the OPP version. I guess that's one (1) way 2 of -- of looking at it. I guess the simple answer to 3 that is, "Yes." But it's the facts as we knew them and 4 we wanted to provide them in as short an order as 5 possible. 6 Clearly, the media was well aware of the 7 events that where happening and, quite frankly, they were 8 -- they were already calling. I mean, as you -- as you 9 saw, I already had calls from the Globe and Mail. 10 Q: Okay. And at page 385 of the 11 transcript, with respect to your call with Superintendent 12 Parkin at Tab 62, there's -- at the top of the page, it 13 reports -- you're reported to have said, and you said it 14 on the tape: 15 "We've got one (1) dead anyway, Dudley 16 -- Dudley's dead." 17 And then -- and halfway down the page: 18 "No Dudley. He's really -- he's from 19 [and something inaudible] big time 20 source, you know." 21 And what were you referring to with 22 respect to Mr. Dudley George at this time; do you recall? 23 A: To tell you truth, I'm not sure. I'm 24 not sure what that -- unless I could hear that audio 25 under some better circumstances I can't tell what I'm
131 trying to say there. 2 Q: And the -- with respect to the -- 3 Mark Wright, Mark Wright apparently said, "Dudley, he's 4 dead." 5 And it appears that Sergeant Wright knew 6 Dudley George's name and you knew Dudley George's name? 7 A: Well, certainly he -- he had been one 8 (1) of the occupiers since '93, I mean, certainly a name 9 that would be familiar to the local officers. 10 Q: Okay. And the unknown person that 11 you refer to as being at Strathroy Hospital, that unknown 12 person turned out to be Cecil Bernard George; is that 13 correct? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And when did you learn that Cecil 16 Bernard George had been injured and was taken to the 17 hospital? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: There are references in the scribe 22 notes to Cecil Bernard George, but... 23 A: To -- to tell you the truth, I'm -- 24 I'm -- off the top of my head, I'm not sure. I know that 25 it was actually some lengthy period after, before I
141 connected that -- I knew there were a couple of people at 2 the hospital hurt; I didn't know that one (1) of the 3 people at the hospital was -- I may have known his name, 4 I didn't know he was a person who had been arrested by 5 the crowd management team. 6 Q: When did you learn that the person -- 7 one (1) of the people at the hospital was a person who 8 had been arrested by the crowd management unit? 9 A: I'm going to suggest to you probably 10 at least -- it was days or a week later. 11 Q: Okay. And with respect to the 12 Strathroy General Hospital, if I could take you to 13 Exhibit 426, the scribe notes, at page 81... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: ...and there's a note at 23:25: 18 "Trevor Richardson: Victim is being 19 transported to Strathroy. Constable 20 Speck and Mark Dew en route." 21 Do you see that injury -- that entry? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what victim is being referred to 24 there, if you know? 25 A: My -- my belief that that is the
151 victim that's being driven in a vehicle that had stopped 2 in the Arkona area requesting assistance, is my 3 understanding. 4 Q: And the -- Trevor Richardson was a 5 Sergeant in charge of CIB at that point? 6 A: Yes, he's a detective sergeant. 7 Q: Detective sergeant? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I'd like to play two (2) clips 10 for you. The first one is at 23:27. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 13 14 September 6, 1995 15 23:27 16 17 Track # 2327 18 19 Lima One. Delta. 20 21 Delta. Lima One go ahead. 22 23 Do we have a uniform that can go with this ambulance? 24 Ten four. 25
161 Boon and Murphy will go from Ravenswood. 2 3 Delta, yes, put two uniforms in with that 1052. 4 Detectives will meet him at the Strathroy Hospital. Ten 5 Four. 6 7 Uniforms from Ravenswood, is that ten four? 8 9 Have those two uniforms that are going to go come down 10 here and meet me at the corner of 21 and Army Camp right 11 now. 12 13 Sergeant Koposec to the uniforms. One two-man car to 14 meet at 21 and Army Camp Road to escort a prisoner in the 15 1052. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And did you hear that transmission, 19 Deputy Carson, on the evening of September the 6th? 20 A: I don't recall that. 21 Q: And at -- the person who was at Army 22 Camp Road and Highway 21 was Nicholas Cottrelle? Did 23 you -- 24 A: I -- I don't know. 25 Q: Did you subsequently become aware
171 that a person was taken by ambulance from Army Camp Road 2 and Highway 21 to Strathroy General Hospital? 3 A: I -- I can't tell you for sure if I 4 knew how Nicholas Cottrelle arrived to hospital. 5 Q: And with respect to the Strathroy 6 General Hospital, what role, if any, did you play in the 7 decision to arrest Pierre George, Carolyn George, and 8 J.T. Cousins when they arrived at the Strathroy General 9 Hospital? 10 A: Quite frankly, none. 11 Q: And who made the decision to arrest 12 Pierre George, Carolyn George, and J.T. Cousins at the 13 Strathroy Hospital? 14 A: As I understand it, between Detective 15 Sergeant Wright and Richardson, Richardson was sent to 16 the hospital. Richardson's a seasoned criminal 17 investigator. And the decision to make arrests and -- 18 and deal with potential witnesses or potential co- 19 accused, he would address that issue. 20 Q: Richardson and Wright? 21 A: Correct. But Richardson was going to 22 the scene. He would be the on-scene supervisor who would 23 direct the activities there. 24 Q: And did you learn during the evening 25 of September 6th, excuse me, the morning of September 7th
181 or on September 7th why they were arrested? 2 A: Not at that time. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: I -- I was aware that Richardson was 5 at the hospital and dealing with a number of people 6 there. But how many people were at the hospital, who was 7 at the hospital, who arrived with who and how they -- how 8 they arrived, quite frankly I had no idea at that time. 9 Q: And when did you learn that people 10 had been arrested at the hospital? 11 A: It would -- well I knew sometime the 12 next day but what happens is, because of all the other 13 activities happening at the command post, Richardson is 14 left to his own devices to deal with the issues at the 15 hospital while I was involved in some other events. 16 Q: And... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And the -- Pierre George, Carolyn 21 George, and J.T. Cousins were never charged with 22 anything? 23 A: I don't believe so, no. 24 Q: And did you have anything to do with 25 the decision to keep them in jail in Strathroy for the
191 period of time that they were in jail? 2 A: No, sir. 3 Q: That was under the auspices of Mr. 4 Richardson or Mr. Wright? 5 A: Yeah. Richardson, in particular, was 6 the on-scene supervisor at Strathroy Hospital and 7 subsequently, as I understand it, when they were taken 8 over to the Strathroy detachment. 9 Q: And with respect to Cecil Bernard 10 George, as I understand it, the CM -- if a -- if a person 11 is injured, as you said earlier this morning, in a 12 confrontation with the police, then it has to be reported 13 to the -- to the SIU for a serious injury? 14 A: Right, yes. 15 Q: And when did you learn of the 16 seriousness of the injuries of Cecil Bernard George? 17 A: Well, the difficulty was I -- I 18 didn't -- I didn't know which -- which person was which. 19 Like, I knew that someone had been arrested and they had 20 transported that person to the hospital that had been 21 arrested, but I didn't know who was who. 22 So I knew there was a number of people. I 23 didn't -- at the time I didn't -- I -- I wasn't aware 24 whether it was Nicholas Cottrelle or -- I have the names 25 here -- of the -- of the people involved, but who was --
201 who played which part wasn't clear to me at that point in 2 time. And, of course, part of this was going to be part 3 of a Criminal Investigations Branch investigation. 4 So, quite frankly, those details were not 5 -- while they're important, they were being addressed by 6 Richardson and others at the hospital, that -- who played 7 which role would be pieced together later. 8 So -- so, in fact, I wasn't sure which 9 person was playing which part. 10 Q: Okay. And who told you that the CMU 11 had arrested a person who had been sent to the hospital? 12 A: In all likelihood it was probably 13 Staff Sergeant Lacroix when -- when the CMU returned or 14 they -- they called for the prisoner van when the 15 altercation took place. But I forget if it was 16 transmitted over the radio or if -- if the other 17 information -- clearly I had some discussion with Lacroix 18 when he returned back to the TOC site and he certainly 19 indicated there had been an altercation. And -- and it 20 had been quite a violent confrontation between him and a 21 male subject. 22 Q: He advised you that -- of that? 23 A: Yes. He indicated that he had been, 24 I think, as he explained it, he -- his riot shield had 25 been shattered by a strike from an iron bar or iron bar-
211 type object and that he struck the person and put him 2 down. 3 Q: And did he indicate what -- and "he" 4 being Staff Sergeant Lacroix, what happened to that 5 person afterwards? 6 A: I -- I think, if my memory serves me 7 correctly, his version of it was that he struck the 8 person, put him to the ground and literally jumped over 9 him and -- and moved forward into -- continuing into a 10 bit of melee and an arrest team took custody of the 11 individual. 12 Q: And did you speak to anyone in the 13 arrest team? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And did Staff Sergeant Lacroix report 16 to you any comments with respect to the actions of the 17 arrest team? 18 A: None. 19 Q: And can you tell me everything that 20 you can remember that Staff Sergeant Lacroix said to you 21 upon the return to the TOC from the march down the road? 22 A: He indicated to me that he explained 23 that they moved into the parking lot and then they had 24 taken the defensive position and there was a lot of 25 yelling and shouting coming from over the fence from the
221 Park. 2 He said individuals came over the fence 3 and charged towards the crowd management team and that he 4 ordered the team forward. And there was an altercation 5 and -- and the incident with the steel bar and the shield 6 of his own, shield being shattered and striking the 7 individual. 8 And basically as I recall, he indicated, 9 as I said, he jumped over the individual and continued 10 forward into the altercations that were taking place. 11 The individuals -- the rest of the occupiers ran back 12 into the Park and he brought the team back up onto the 13 roadway to pull them back. 14 And the prisoner had been taken into a van 15 and as they were leaving, he indicated a bus and a car 16 came out of the Park hitting a dumpster, pushing the 17 dumpster up the road towards them and, in his words, 18 trying to mow them down. 19 And he said that a handgun came out of the 20 car and -- and the bus and that several officers returned 21 fire. And the bus reversed back into the Park and the 22 car drove back into the Park. And basically he did a 23 head count and -- and then I ordered them back to the TOC 24 site. 25 Q: And did he tell you whether he
231 personally saw the handgun in the car and the gun in the 2 bus that you referred to? 3 A: All -- what I remember is he made 4 comment to the affect that a gun came out of the car and 5 the bus. And -- and I, you know, the terminology in 6 exactly his words, I can't be exact. 7 But I had a sense that he was speaking 8 about a handgun from the gun and a long gun from the bus. 9 But I -- but I couldn't say that he said he saw it or if 10 he was told that, I don't know. 11 Q: And did you speak to any other 12 members of the crowd management unit that evening or the 13 next day with respect to the events in the sandy parking 14 lot? 15 A: As the incident commander and 16 understanding that two (2) things were going to happen 17 now, there was going to be a criminal investigation done 18 and there would also be a special investiga -- special 19 investigations unit conducted. 20 It would be inappropriate for me to 21 determine any of the interview statements or information 22 from individuals with the caution of interfering with the 23 subsequent investigations that were going to be obviously 24 necessary. 25 So from that day up until all the
241 processes were complete, including the civil process in 2 2003, I had asked not one (1) question of one (1) officer 3 in regards to their personal conduct. 4 Q: Okay. And with respect to the 5 evening of September 6th or the morning and September 6 7th, before the SIU invoked their mandate, did you speak 7 to Kenneth Deane or any other members of the TRU team who 8 marched -- who were down the road on the evening of 9 September 6th? 10 A: No. 11 Q: The -- information that you received 12 was from Kent Skinner? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And can you tell us as much as you 15 can remember today of what Kent Skinner told you? And if 16 there's anything you need to help refresh your memory, 17 please refer to it. 18 A: All -- all I can remember in regards 19 to Kent Skinner was that the individual who -- I knew -- 20 or, he had informed me that three (3) officers had 21 discharged their weapons, the three (3) officers being 22 Deane, Beauchesne, and Klym. 23 For some reason I always had the 24 impression that the three (3) officers all fired at the 25 same area, but in fact, I only learned in -- in very
251 recent past that, in fact, Klym, and Beauchesne had shot, 2 allegedly, at the vehicles that were running into the 3 officers. 4 So, quite frankly, I -- I have very little 5 recollection of exactly what Skinner said other than I 6 was aware that the information had come through the radio 7 that Ken Deane had discharged his firearm. But I believe 8 it was through Skinner that I learned that the other two 9 (2) had discharged their weaponry as well. 10 Q: And the comment that you wrote in the 11 book: 12 "The natives shot, ran back into the 13 Park." 14 How did that come to you? 15 A: Oh, that came over the TRU team 16 radio; I heard it personally. 17 Q: Then, after your discussion -- on -- 18 on the evening of September 6th, if I could take you to, 19 again, to page 81 of Exhibit 426, there's a note in the 20 scribe notes at 23:44 about the evacuation of the area 21 that we spoke about yesterday and Steve Reid assigned to 22 contact people; and who was Steve Reid? 23 A: Steve Reid is a Sergeant from the 24 Forest Detachment. 25 Q: And he worked with Marg Eve to deal
261 with the evacuations? 2 A: I believe so, yes. 3 Q: And I may have asked you this 4 yesterday, but if I did I apologize, did you have 5 anything more to do with the issue of evacuations during 6 the night? 7 A: Not -- not directly. 8 Q: That was assigned to Steve Reid and - 9 - and he was to attend to that? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: Then there's a reference at the 12 bottom of page 82: 13 "Armed takedown outside concluded." 14 What does that refer to? 15 A: At that time, I was in the command 16 post with several other people, radio operator, ERT 17 leader. I -- I believe Dale Linton and Mark Wright were 18 all there. A vehicle arrived on the front line at Forest 19 detachment and if -- if I have it accurate, I may or may 20 not be accurate because some of it's simply memory here, 21 but the pickup truck had somebody in the back, And there 22 -- there was concern that the person may be armed. And 23 there was a -- an order in the command post came from 24 somebody to literally hit the deck. 25 And -- and apparently the officers who
271 were providing security at the Forest Detachment did a 2 high-risk takedown of the individuals in the pickup 3 truck. 4 Q: And when you say, "there was an 5 order" or someone said to, "hit the deck," what does that 6 mean? 7 A: Well, it's as simple as what it says. 8 Every -- everybody literally hit the floor; went to the 9 floor. They thought that there were -- there was going 10 to be shots incoming. 11 Q: And why was that? 12 A: Well, as -- as was indicated earlier, 13 there was a call came in threatening First Nations 14 officers Luke George, Vince George, and Phil George. And 15 there was significant concern that because of the events 16 that had taken place there was going to be or had serious 17 potential of retaliation taking place. 18 Q: And did you learn who the people were 19 who were arrested in the high-risk takedown? 20 A: No. I -- I don't -- I don't recall 21 who they were. 22 Q: No one, at the time, told you that it 23 was Cecil Bernard George's wife, sister, and brother? 24 A: I had no idea, sir, who -- who was 25 out there.
281 Q: Then can you just tell us briefly 2 what you did after midnight on September 6th? And I'm 3 going to take you to some telephone calls, but can you 4 give us an overview and then I'll take you some -- 5 A: Well, the long and the short of it, 6 for the rest of that evening there were issues about 7 trying to ensure we obtained the additional resources we 8 felt we required. 9 There was a lot of activity around 10 checkpoints and there was a number of phone calls that I 11 had made and I'd received with various people in the 12 community. There were -- I made a call with Sergeant 13 Babbitt, who was the media relations officer. 14 I notified Superintendent Parkin and he 15 was going to notify our general headquarters duty officer 16 and also look after notifying the Special Investigations 17 Unit. The Special Investigations Unit did attend. 18 A couple of hours later an individual by 19 the name of Kennedy from the Sarnia area attended and 20 also Detective Inspector Bob Goodall attended and 21 commenced his investigation. 22 And I spent a significant amount of time 23 that morning in the interview room at Forest Detachment 24 with SIU investigator and our criminal investigation 25 inspector explaining that information.
291 Q: And in the criminal investigation 2 branch inspector was Inspector Goodall? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And he was in charge of the criminal 5 investigation from the OPP side? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: And -- and I guess just for clarity, 9 it's important to understand that SIU has the 10 responsibility to investigate the police shooting and the 11 police involvement in regards to any injury or death. 12 But the criminal investigation, any 13 criminal acts that have taken place in the general sense 14 still needs to be investigated by our criminal 15 investigation people. So there's two (2) -- two (2) 16 separate investigations occurring here. 17 Q: Okay. And generally anything else 18 with respect to your activities during the night of 19 September 6th, 7th? 20 A: Quite frankly I'd have to go through 21 the minutes and my notes almost page by page because 22 quite frankly at that point, the night is, memory wise is 23 quite a blur. 24 Q: Okay. Well, what we'll do is, we'll 25 refer to some of the entries and if there are any other
301 entries that you would like to bring to our attention, 2 please do, Deputy Carson. 3 We've gone through these entries in detail 4 up to now. I don't intend to go through them in such 5 detail during this period. But at approximately -- at 6 page 83 of the logger notes at forty-seven (47) hours you 7 spoke to -- called Chief Tom Bressette; is that correct? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: And that is Call Number 67. And the 10 transcript is at Tab 65. And -- but perhaps before -- 11 and I'll play that. That's the -- it's 68. And I 12 understand that you're responding, if you look at Tab 64 13 in the book of -- the volumes that -- and I'm not going 14 to play this, but Chief Bressette called you at the 15 command post and a Mr. Doug Peer took the call; is that 16 correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And Chief Tom Bressette asked that 19 you call him back? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And there's a reference on page 394 22 of Tab 64 to Rose; is that Rose Peterman? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then -- 25 A: Doug Peer would be at the comm.
311 centre in London, so he's called in from London relaying 2 this information, by the looks of it. 3 Q: And so the -- the call that came in 4 from Chief Bressette did not come directly to you in the 5 command post; went to the London number and was -- the 6 information was conveyed to you? 7 A: Correct. In all likelihood, he's 8 probably called an 800 number which is directed into one 9 (1) of the comm. centres. 10 Q: Okay. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 13 14 John CARSON and Tom BRESSETTE 15 16 September 7, 1995 17 TIME: 00:40:42 hours 18 Track 1.wav 19 (Dialling of phone) 20 (Dial tone) 21 (Dialling of phone...ringing in) 22 (inaudible talking) 23 (phone ringing in) 24 TOM: Hello. 25 CARSON: Tom.
321 TOM: Yes. 2 CARSON: John CARSON here. 3 TOM: Hi John. 4 CARSON: How are you tonight? 5 TOM: Oh I'm a bit frustrated right now. 6 CARSON: I can relate to that. 7 TOM: I want to know why you're using ah Kettle 8 Point Police Officers down there when they 9 have Vince GEORGE and Luke GEORGE. 10 CARSON: We're not we're not using Kettle Point 11 Police Officers. 12 TOM: Oh well I was cause KOZINOWSKI has been 13 called out to the highway and I want him 14 removed. 15 CARSON: Ah he will be I I had no idea he was at 16 the highway ah all I knew is he's working 17 ah... 18 TOM: Well I don't want him involved in this... 19 CARSON: I I... 20 TOM: There's (I/A) OPPs in Forest are being 21 shielded from this I want him pulled out 22 of there right now. 23 CARSON: It's not a problem Tom, it will be 24 handled. It's not a problem, okay? 25 TOM: Well why isn't this being done in the
331 daylight, John? 2 CARSON: Tom ah yeah I don't think this is a time 3 to debate this. 4 TOM: I'm I'm not I know but ah you know I 5 understand somebody's died over this 6 thing. 7 CARSON: Well it sounds like somebody is seriously 8 injured I haven't got all that information 9 yet but ah I just got back just walked in 10 the door here myself. 11 TOM: Yeah. 12 CARSON: But ah... 13 TOM: Well that's what my concern is I mean it's 14 night time stuff there's kids around down 15 there and ah I know it's it's something 16 that I don't ah support this kind of a 17 thing what they're doing... 18 CARSON: Tom my my concern is for the community as 19 a whole and there's nothing that's going 20 to get started unless somebody else starts 21 and I can assure you that, okay. 22 TOM: Alright. 23 CARSON: Thank you. 24 TOM: Well can you get KOZINOWSKI out of there I 25 don't want him...
341 CARSON: No I I I appreciate that Tom and and I'll 2 make sure that happens immediately. 3 TOM: Alright thank you. 4 CARSON: Okay, thanks. 5 TOM: Alright. 6 7 End of Conversation. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And that was Chief Tom Bressette on 11 the telephone? 12 A: Yes, it was. 13 Q: And you? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And what did you do as a result of 16 the call from Chief Bressette, if anything. 17 A: I directed Kazanowski (phonetic) be 18 relieved and sent back to Kettle Point. 19 Q: And there's a note at page 84 of the 20 scribe note, at 1:24: 21 "John Carson ensure Wally Kazanowski is 22 patrolling this area." 23 What area is -- are you referring to 24 there, sir? 25 A: I suspect it's -- it should be "is
351 not". 2 Q: Not. I'm instructed by My Friend 3 that it should be -- in that entry there should be a 4 "not", 5 "...is not patrolling this area." 6 A: That would be my expectation, yes. 7 Q: And that was the area on the highway? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And then at page 83, there's a note 10 at 38:00 hours [sic]: 11 "Kent Skinner arrived advising he'd 12 brought back Wade Lacroix. John Carson 13 had discussion with Kent Skinner about 14 getting guns. Dale Linton will seize 15 weapons" 16 And there is a -- what do you recall of 17 that discussion, if anything, today, Deputy Carson? 18 A: Well, it was simply a discussion with 19 those individuals in regards to securing the evidence 20 that was necessary for the subsequent investigations; 21 that the officers who had discharged their weapons would 22 have to turn those weapons over and someone would have to 23 take custody of them for continuity purposes. 24 And it was decided that Inspector Linton 25 would carry that out.
361 Q: And there's a note Wade Lacroix 2 arrived and at 00:45 hours Wade Lacroix to Dale Linton 3 there's no doubt about it, they tried to kill us. Were 4 you part of that discussion? 5 A: I'm not sure if I was or not. 6 Q: Did you have any -- do you recall 7 today any discussion with Wade Lacroix after you returned 8 to the mobile command unit? 9 A: Oh, I'm sure I would have had some 10 discussion with him. 11 Q: Do you recall anything today? 12 A: Off -- from memory? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Not specific. But I'd certainly -- 15 Q: About -- and when I say a discussion, 16 a discussion about the incident on Army Camp Road and the 17 sandy parking lot? 18 A: Well, I certainly had discussion with 19 him down at the TOC site when they returned, initially. 20 But there's no doubt in my mind that that sentiment was 21 how he felt about it. It's certainly an accurate 22 reflection of 23 -- of what he had shared with me. 24 Q: Okay. And then you spoke to Mr. 25 Babbitt with respect to the press release and that is at
371 Tab 66 at approximately ten (10) to 1:00 on the morning 2 of September 7th; is that correct? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends, 5 that is Call Number 69. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 8 9 CARSON and BABBITT 10 11 September 7, 1995 12 TIME: 00:50:34 hours 13 Track 2.wav 14 (Dialling of phone...busy tone) 15 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN. 16 BABBITT: Hi PETERMAN, BABBITT here at the Media 17 Relations post. 18 PETERMAN: Yeah, hi Doug. 19 BABBITT: Ah CARSON was trying to get hold of me. 20 PETERMAN: Yeah he's right here beside me, hold on. 21 BABBITT: Thank you. 22 CARSON: Hello Doug. 23 BABBITT: Hi John 24 CARSON: How are you? 25 BABBITT: Ah busy.
381 CARSON: Have they got you surrounded with people 2 there? 3 BABBITT: Ah...I just the phones have been going 4 nuts. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 BABBITT: It's just uh...well you know what it's 7 like. 8 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 9 BABBITT: Ah is uhm what I've been saying before you 10 tell me anything... 11 CARSON: Hmm hmm. 12 BABBITT: I told them that I have had no (I/A) to 13 anything that I knew that there was some 14 type of an incident, that happened after 15 8:00 o'clock ah I thought it was happening 16 out on the roadway in front of the park 17 uhm but I couldn't confirm it and as a 18 result of that incident our officers are 19 reacted to the situation and we've been 20 operational since then and that ah I had 21 no other information other than to say 22 that there was now a perimeter roadblock 23 set up ah around the entire area where no 24 one was being allowed in. 25 CARSON: Okay.
391 BABBITT: Uhm what else did I tell them...ah dah dah 2 dah dah they're all asking about the 3 gunshots and that ah they've been on the 4 phone to Ovid MERCREDI who said he's 5 received a phoned from a woman at Stony 6 Point who indicates that ah shots were 7 fired and somebody was injured she doesn't 8 know if it was the police or First Nations 9 people. And ah...(what) 10 (inaudible background talking) 11 BABBITT: Yeah and and the report and and yeah 12 that's right I did I said we I said 13 indications are that there were two 14 ambulances left the area but I have no 15 idea who or what they were carrying or 16 where they were going. 17 CARSON: Alright. Okay ah have you been talking to 18 Marilyn MURRAY yet? 19 BABBITT: Oh a long time ago. 20 CARSON: Okay how's she what does she suggest? 21 BABBITT: Well she said that ah you know honesty and 22 being up front is the best policy and we 23 all know that... 24 CARSON: Yeah. 25 BABBITT: Uhm I said that ah until such time as I
401 had some information from you that you 2 were willing to release, that ah we were 3 going to be...you know just somewhat 4 stymie here but obviously now I'm speaking 5 to you. 6 CARSON: Hmm hmm. 7 BABBITT: Uhm I feel confident ah that come morning 8 we're we're going to be dealing with 9 probably a bigger issue than now what's 10 going on out West as you probably would 11 agree. 12 CARSON: Hmm hmm. 13 BABBITT: And apart from that I don't know what 14 happened. 15 CARSON: Okay. What you can say... 16 BABBITT: Okay. 17 CARSON: Uhm an incident occurred outside of 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park on the township 19 property the same place the picnic table 20 thing did... 21 BABBITT: An incident happened... 22 CARSON: Okay let let me just tell you this and 23 then then you can feed it back what you 24 understand okay? 25 BABBITT: Okay.
411 CARSON: Okay so an incident occurred in the the 2 same area as the picnic table incident 3 early today and ah as a result of ah of of 4 an altercation ah there was an exchange of 5 gunfire and as a result of that three 6 persons have been taken to Strathroy 7 Hospital, condition unknown at this time. 8 Ah all persons at the hospital are First 9 Nations. 10 CARSON: We have officers with minor injuries. 11 BABBITT: Any gunshot injuries? 12 CARSON: None to our people. 13 BABBITT: Okay so uhm I I guess there's a big gap in 14 the story there, it sounds like they came 15 out and we immediately had an exchange of 16 gunfire. 17 CARSON: Well that's not too far from it. 18 BABBITT: So... 19 CARSON: Okay I'll tell you you know the READER'S 20 DIGEST version here. 21 BABBITT: Okay. 22 CARSON: The bus and another car came charging 23 through the fence and and went right 24 through our our Crowd Team and they they 25 dove for cover and while they were doing
421 that they fired upon and they returned 2 fire. 3 BABBITT: Hmm hmm. 4 CARSON: Okay so maybe I should is there a number I 5 can Marilyn at directly? 6 BABBITT: Yeah there sure is. 7 CARSON: Okay. 8 BABBITT: Uhm you can call her at her house... 9 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And as -- what's happened on the tape 13 is that her home phone number has been -- been redacted, 14 although it wasn't redacted on the transcript and on the 15 public copy of the transcript the telephone number should 16 be redacted. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a home 18 number, is it? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Pardon me? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a home 21 number? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 25
431 CARSON: Yes. 2 BABBITT: She's at area code XXX... 3 CARSON: Right. 4 BABBITT: XXX... 5 CARSON: Yes. 6 BABBITT: XXXX. 7 CARSON: Okay. Okay I'll call her, now somehow or 8 another we got to keep the line going 9 here. 10 BABBITT: Yeah I mean... 11 CARSON: Can why why don't you just leave this line 12 open I'll put this one on hold pick up 13 another line. 14 BABBITT: Okay. 15 CARSON: And then when I'm ready to get back to you 16 I've got it because there's no way I can 17 get the line back. 18 BABBITT: Okay I'll I'll stay in this line then. 19 CARSON: Okay I'm probably going to be a few 20 minutes. 21 BABBITT: Well that's fine I understand that John 22 I'll just stay here and wait. 23 CARSON: O okay thanks Doug. 24 BABBITT: Thanks. 25 CARSON: Alright.
441 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And the balance of this call is 3 Sergeant Babbitt talking to someone in the background. 4 And at the end of it you ask him to call you back at a 5 different number? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that's a direct number that 8 you -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- put into -- use for calls directly 11 to you? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And at that -- at that time or 14 shortly after that call you did call Marilyn Murray? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And Marilyn Murray is the media -- 17 media relations person at the General Headquarters? 18 A: Yes. She was the Media Relations 19 Manager at that time. 20 Q: And the call is Call Number 70; it's 21 at -- the transcript is at Tab 67. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 24 25 CARSON and MURRAY
451 September 7, 1995 2 TIME: 00:55:40 hours 3 Track 2.wav 4 (Dialling of phone...busy signal) 5 (Dialling of phone...) 6 UNKNOWN: Can't choose your date. 7 (background talking) 8 (phone ringing) 9 UNKNOWN: Yeah I wouldn't mind... 10 MURRAY: Hello. 11 CARSON: Marilyn. 12 MURRAY: Yeah. 13 CARSON: John CARSON here. 14 MURRAY: Hi, John. 15 CARSON: How are you tonight? 16 MURRAY: Not bad. 17 CARSON: Sorry to wake you up. 18 MURRAY: Oh no it's okay I'm awake. Doug had 19 called me earlier. 20 CARSON: Ah I bet he did. Ah I guess he he's given 21 you some information. 22 MURRAY: Yes and then Tony PARKIN called me... 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 MURRAY: And I understand that we have ah one dead, 25 two seriously injured.
461 CARSON: That's right. 2 MURRAY: Ah were they hit by our people? 3 CARSON: Yes. 4 MURRAY: Okay. We know that for su for sure. 5 CARSON: Well that's what we believe. 6 MURRAY: Okay. 7 CARSON: Ah...can I can I tell you basically how it 8 happened? 9 MURRAY: Yeah. 10 CARSON: Okay ah does that get into any legal 11 issues as far as you're concerned? 12 MURRAY: ...uhm are they any legal issues? 13 CARSON: Yeah. 14 MURRAY: Well... 15 CARSON: If I share that? 16 MURRAY: Oh no go ahead. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: What were you referring to there? 20 What was the concern there, Deputy Carson? 21 A: Well, I didn't want to put her into 22 an untenable spot if I shared something with her that 23 would make her -- cause her some concerns after the fact 24 if she would be a subsequent witness in the fact that she 25 may not want to be.
471 Q: Oh, I see. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 4 5 CARSON: Okay. Basically what happened is our 6 crowd, Crowd Control Squad they were they 7 were out ah ah of the Park a cause 8 creating havoc basically ah next in some 9 ah ah what is a public parking area right 10 adjacent to the ah to where cottages are 11 ah had baseball bats and rocks ah set up 12 and preparing a bonfire type of thing and 13 ah anyway we took the Crowd, Crowd Control 14 Unit go to go up to disperse them back to 15 the Provincial Park, which they did. Ah 16 they were ordered to to back off and ah 17 technically they were being recalled you 18 know away from the area being the Natives 19 had left left that ah parking area ah with 20 their baseball bats and stuff after 21 throwing rocks and and things at our 22 officers. 23 MURRAY: Hmm hmm. 24 CARSON: Ah as the officers were leaving ah two 25 vehicles came through the fence ah hit a
481 ah dumpster driving the dumpster forward 2 into our people and they drove literally 3 right at our people and it was just like 4 dominos flying around. 5 MURRAY: Ohhh. 6 CARSON: And ah while that was happening ah a hand 7 gun came out of one car and started firing 8 on our people and a rifle out of the other 9 vehicle and started firing on our people 10 and our officers returned fire. 11 MURRAY: Okay. Ah well and now we have the ah the 12 ERT people there uhm just from my own info 13 John, they were there ah as a part of a 14 routine... 15 CARSON: Ah sorry I don't understand. 16 MURRAY: Well what I mean is ah we weren't 17 anticipating any real problem were we in 18 the beginning? 19 CARSON: Well we've been here for days. 20 MURRAY: Oh no no, I know that uhm but this 21 particular thing. 22 CARSON: Yeah we just we just went there to move 23 them back and and we had we we had 24 observation points set up so we were 25 observing and we we had seen no weapons or
491 anything. 2 MURRAY: Sure. 3 CARSON: Ah ah my orders were if if a weapon was 4 seen that we wouldn't you know advance out 5 and try to to move them off. 6 MURRAY: Hmm hmm. 7 CARSON: And what happened is they went out ah a 8 member of the public had driven by there 9 and had been ah ah ah ah their car had 10 been literally assaulted... 11 MURRAY: Hmm hmm. 12 CARSON: Okay they went out and banged on the car 13 with with the baseball bats and stuff and 14 and that's why we went to clear them away 15 from the from the highway. 16 17 MURRAY: Okay. Alright uhm... 18 CARSON: I I like I guess where I'm betwixed and 19 between is how do we get that out without 20 it sounding self serving? 21 MURRAY: Well I look at it this way uhm, we're 22 certain that we were fired on first. 23 CARSON: Yes. 24 MURRAY: Okay, uhm SIU been called I'm assuming. 25 CARSON: Well ah Tony PARKIN was taking care of
501 that. 2 MURRAY: Okay, which means you got we only get 3 one... 4 CARSON: A window of opportunity here. 5 MURRAY: One kick at the cat. 6 CARSON: Okay. 7 MURRAY: Uhm because and we got to get it out 8 before SIU gets there. 9 CARSON: Well that's why I want to talk to you. 10 MURRAY: And uhm and then because then we're shut 11 down. 12 CARSON: Yeah. 13 MURRAY: So you might as well get your story out. 14 CARSON: Well okay... 15 MURRAY: Okay. 16 CARSON: So tell me what I can say. 17 MURRAY: Well I think you can uhm, let's ah you 18 know let's not assess blame... 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 MURRAY: But let's go with the facts. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 MURRAY: And that is uhm that uhm that there was a 23 disturbance uhm around the cottages 24 however you've got all the details on 25 that...
511 CARSON: Right. 2 MURRAY: And ah that ah ah private citizen's 3 vehicle was you know hit on or whatever ah 4 that we went in to disperse the crowds 5 which they were dispersing... 6 CARSON: Right. 7 MURRAY: And ah and then ah two vehicles or it was 8 two vehicles... 9 CARSON: Yes. 10 MURRAY: Or one? 11 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 12 MURRAY: Two vehicles broke through on you might 13 want to put in about ah the dumpster and 14 you know the whole bit. 15 CARSON: Yeah. 16 MURRAY: The two vehicles and uhm ah they were 17 fired upon by ah occupants of the two 18 vehicles. 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 MURRAY: And uhm we returned fire. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 MURRAY: And you mention it...if we don't say that 23 we've the learned oh the hard way... 24 CARSON: Okay no I want to do it right. 25 MURRAY: Yeah.
521 CARSON: I want to do it right, ah we got to think 2 about people too and and... 3 MURRAY: Well that's right. 4 CARSON: And I don't want to be ah crucified 5 tomorrow in the media because we didn't 6 tell our side of the story. 7 MURRAY: That's right. 8 CARSON: I I'd rather take shit from somebody in 9 our outfit for telling too much than... 10 MURRAY: That's right. 11 CARSON: Okay. 12 MURRAY: As long as we don't really point fingers 13 at them... 14 CARSON: No. 15 MURRAY: But just give them the circumstances. 16 CARSON: Right. 17 MURRAY: Like ah like a report. 18 CARSON: Right, okay so basically this is what I'll 19 say ah I'll get the time ah whatever time 20 ah there was a disturbance ah ah on ah 21 Parkway Road ah where ah private citizen's 22 vehicle was damaged, a crowd of ah of 23 First Nations people ah had congregated in 24 that area with ah ah a number of baseball 25 bats whatever it was...
531 MURRAY: Hmm hmm. 2 CARSON: Ah as a result of that ah the crowd was 3 dispersed by ah and I'll have a number ah 4 ah a Crowd Management Unit of police 5 officers... 6 MURRAY: Hmm hmm. 7 CARSON: And as the Crowd Management Unit was 8 leaving the area two vehicles drove 9 through the fence ah with a school bus and 10 a full size vehicle ah ah basically 11 plowing a ah a dumpster in its path, ah 12 drove right into the ah basically into the 13 into the crowd of police officers and the 14 officers were fired upon by occupants of 15 that those vehicles. 16 MURRAY: Hmm hmm. 17 CARSON: Subsequently officers returned fire. 18 MURRAY: Hmm hmm. 19 CARSON: Ah now because of notification of death 20 and all that type of stuff... 21 MURRAY: Hmm hmm. 22 CARSON: Ah do I want to ah elaborate, there's one 23 they they'll find out there's one dead 24 or... 25 MURRAY: Oh yeah let's tell them.
541 CARSON: Okay. 2 MURRAY: Uhm we've got nothing to hide here I don't 3 think. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 MURRAY: Ah so you'll ah mention one one dead and 6 ah what is it two seriously injured or 7 whatever. 8 CARSON: Right right. 9 MURRAY: Uhm I guess after you do notification 10 they'll probably want to ah give their 11 names. 12 CARSON: Okay, okay. Okay we'll we'll get it 13 right, do you want me to send it down 14 before we let it go or do you want me to 15 just... 16 MURRAY: Ah... 17 CARSON: Wing it from here? 18 MURRAY: Well ah I'm sure you've been speaking to 19 Doug. 20 CARSON: Oh yes. 21 MURRAY: Okay. 22 CARSON: I got as a matter of fact I got him on the 23 other line... 24 MURRAY: Okay. 25 CARSON: Holding for me.
551 MURRAY: Now he's ah he's a really ah I have no 2 fears with Doug down there. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 MURRAY: And I know that you don't either. 5 CARSON: No I (I/A) for him. 6 MURRAY: Uhm so what we've said here we're happy 7 with but he may look at it and say wait a 8 minute... 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 MURRAY: Although I don't think so. 11 CARSON: Okay. 12 MURRAY: Uhm... 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 MURRAY: He might. 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 MURRAY: And if you want you can get Doug cause I 17 know you're tied up if you want you get 18 Doug to phone me back, I'm at home. 19 CARSON: Okay and then he can ah run it by you? 20 MURRAY: You've got my number. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 MURRAY: And ah we can thrash it out. 23 CARSON: Okay, that would be great. 24 MURRAY: And that will free you up John. 25 CARSON: I would appreciate that Marilyn.
561 MURRAY: Okay. 2 CARSON: I owe you on this one. 3 MURRAY: No not at all. 4 CARSON: Oh Jesus Christ. 5 MURRAY: Oh no, what a mess eh? Well you know what 6 you knew this was going to happen. 7 CARSON: I know. 8 MURRAY: The RCMP didn't have what it took. 9 CARSON: Yeah. 10 MURRAY: So the OPP gets (I/A) up. 11 CARSON: Well I blame it on the feds and that they 12 should have dealt with the military base 13 two frigging years ago. 14 MURRAY: Well they walked away from that and 15 thinking and they cause they're laughing. 16 CARSON: Yeah. 17 MURRAY: You know we we knew they were going to get 18 mixed up with the Provincial Park. 19 CARSON: Yeah. 20 MURRAY: And it was going to get dirty and it did. 21 CARSON: Yeah. 22 MURRAY: Well it's out there now. 23 CARSON: Yeah. 24 MURRAY: Uhm so if you want to ah tell Doug to give 25 me buzz at home, he's got all my numbers.
571 CARSON: Okay. 2 MURRAY: Okay John... 3 CARSON: Thanks. 4 MURRAY: If you need me again ah he can get a hold 5 of me or you can get me. 6 CARSON: Thank you. 7 MURRAY: Okay. 8 CARSON: Alright. 9 MURRAY: Bye bye. 10 CARSON: Bye. 11 12 End of Conversation. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And, Deputy Carson, I noted on page 16 415, an entry, the second entry from the bottom under 17 "you", where it says in this transcript, "yeah", whereas 18 I -- I believe you actually said no. 19 Did you hear that? It's page 415 of the 20 transcript. 21 A: I'm not sure. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Sorry. 24 Q: And then at page 419, the second 25 entry for you, the transcript reads:
581 "We've got to think about people". 2 And I believe it said on the tape, "our 3 people." 4 A: I believe so, correct. 5 Q: And then at page 422, the second 6 entry at the bottom, the transcript reads: 7 "No, I (inaudible) for him". 8 And I believe it says on the tape "have a 9 lot of time"? 10 A: Yeah, "I have a lot of time for him." 11 Q: And then at page 424, there's an 12 entry in the middle of the page, Ms. Murray says: 13 "The RCMP didn't have what it took." 14 You say: "Yeah" 15 "Murray: So the OPP gets --" and it was 16 audible -- something. 17 Do you recall -- did you hear what she 18 said or do you recall what she said during this call? 19 A: I couldn't make out -- I couldn't 20 make it out what she said. 21 Q: And do you have any independent 22 recollection of this call? 23 A: No, sir. I know I made the call, I 24 recall making the call and having the discussion with her 25 but I don't recall the specifics.
591 Q: Did you -- one (1) of My Friends 2 indicates that he thought he heard "mixed", so that it 3 would read, "So the OPP gets mixed up." 4 A: I -- I couldn't confirm that, sir. 5 Q: Then the -- you say: 6 "Well, I blame it on the feds and they 7 should have dealt with the Military 8 Base two (2) frigging years ago." 9 What did you refer -- what were you 10 referring to there, sir? 11 A: I was simply referring to the issue 12 of the Military Base and the frustration that had led to 13 the issues involving the return of the military base. 14 And it was my view that had that agreement been dealt 15 with in good faith or at least some plan in place as how 16 it was going to be dealt with -- 17 Q: And when you say that was dealt with, 18 you mean the Military Base? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: The return to the First Nations 21 people? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: That it wouldn't have spilled from 25 the Military Base to the Park, to the parking lot. And
601 that all of this started as a result of -- of frustration 2 in regards to the inaction around the Military Base 3 agreement in 1993. 4 Q: And you then spoke to Sergeant 5 Babbitt and that call is at -- the transcript is at Tab 6 68 and the call is Call Number 71. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 9 10 CARSON and BABBITT 11 12 September 7, 1995 13 TIME: 01:04:34 hours 14 Track 3.wav 15 CARSON: Hi Doug. 16 BABBITT: I'm here. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And this at approximately 1:04 p.m. 20 on -- a.m. on the morning of September the 7th? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Correct. And that's -- there's a 23 note with respect to this at page 84 of Exhibit 410 at 24 1:10 hours. 25 A: Yes.
611 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 2 3 CARSON: Okay okay um what you can say is I'm on a 4 non-recorded line here I believe. 5 BABBITT: Okay. 6 CARSON: Okay uh what you can say is um the the 7 date ah on whatever day is this I don't 8 know ah. 9 BABBITT: It's the sixth (6th) now. 10 CARSON: Okay. 11 BABBITT: It happened on the sixth (6th). 12 CARSON: Sixth (6th) yeah on Wednesday the sixth 13 (6th) of September dah dah dah um a 14 disturbance was reported to ah the OPP um 15 on the roadway on Parkway Road at Army 16 Camp Road where a private citizen's 17 vehicle was damaged. 18 BABBITT: By can we say by who or. 19 CARSON: Yeah by First Nations people armed with ah 20 with baseball bats. 21 BABBITT: Okay. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 BABBITT: Yep what was the time of that John. 24 CARSON: Ah I'm going to have to confirm that but 25 ah it was ah.
621 BABBITT: Shortly after eight (8). 2 CARSON: It yeah yeah say at approximately eight 3 (8) o'clock. 4 BABBITT: Okay. 5 CARSON: Because I I yeah it was eight (8) or 6 shortly after cause I was I was out for 7 dinner so that's probably what it was 8 okay. 9 BABBITT: Uhum. 10 CARSON: Ah (to background) eighteen (18). 11 MALE: (In background) nineteen. 12 CARSON: Nineteen (19) fif nineteen (19) fifty-five 13 (55). 14 BABBITT: Nineteen (19) fifty-five (55). 15 CARSON: Okay ah as a result of that ah the Crowd 16 Management Unit was ah deployed to 17 disperse the crowd. 18 BABBITT: Okay. 19 CARSON: Of First Nations people that had gathered 20 at that location which is a ah you know 21 whatever description the township property 22 adjacent to the Ipperwash Provincial Park 23 and local cottages. 24 BABBITT: Okay. 25 CARSON: Um the crowd was dispersed ah and ah left
631 into Ipperwash Provincial Park. 2 BABBITT: Okay. 3 CARSON: The Crowd Management Unit was leaving the 4 area. 5 BABBITT: Okay. 6 CARSON: When a school bus and a full sized 7 vehicle. 8 BABBITT: Okay. 9 CARSON: Ah drove through the Provincial Park 10 fence. 11 BABBITT: Okay. 12 CARSON: Striking ah dumpster. 13 BABBITT: Uhum. 14 CARSON: Pushing the dumpster and driving the 15 vehicles directly into the Crowd 16 Management Unit officers assembled. 17 BABBITT: Okay. 18 CARSON: Oh who who were withdrawing from the area. 19 BABBITT: Okay okay. 20 CARSON: Occupants of the of those two (2) vehicles 21 fired upon the police officers. 22 BABBITT: Okay. 23 CARSON: And subsequently police officers returned 24 fire. 25 BABBITT: Okay.
641 CARSON: Um there is one person dead. 2 BABBITT: Okay. 3 CARSON: And two (2) seriously injured. 4 BABBITT: Okay. 5 CARSON: Um identification ah unknown pending 6 notification et cetera. 7 BABBITT: Uhum. 8 CARSON: Ah okay so you've got that. 9 BABBITT: Yep. 10 CARSON: Okay give me what you've got or just what 11 you think you've got. 12 BABBITT: What it is John is on tape that I will 13 take it off of and then burn the tape. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 BABBITT: That's ah generally what I like to do so I 16 don't miss anything. 17 CARSON: Okay okay that's fine and ah you write 18 that up I'm I'm not gonna peruse it what I 19 want you to do is write it up. 20 BABBITT: Okay. 21 CARSON: Call Marilyn. 22 BABBITT: Okay. 23 CARSON: And and ask her if if she is satisfied 24 with it I'm just going to check on a 25 couple details about the the ah how that
651 vehicle was damaged I want to make sure 2 I've got that straight. 3 BABBITT: Okay. 4 CARSON: Okay um but ah what you can also say is 5 the crowd was disbursed ah and officers um 6 um um as the crowd was disbursed into 7 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 8 BABBITT: Uhum. 9 CARSON: They were ah ah confronted by ah natives 10 hurtling rocks and ah yeah hurling rocks. 11 BABBITT: Okay. 12 CARSON: Okay then as the um ah Crowd Management 13 Unit ah was what the term I used was ah um 14 leaving the area basic. 15 BABBITT: Leaving the area sounds best. 16 CARSON: Okay was leaving the area that's when the 17 two (2) vehicles drove through the fence 18 in into into the ah crowd of police 19 officers. 20 BABBITT: Okay the only question I have John from 21 all that is how many natives were down 22 there when the Crowd Control Team moved in 23 to disburse them. 24 CARSON: Ah I'm going to say at least ten (10). 25 BABBITT: Okay.
661 CARSON: Okay but but I'll I'll I can if you call 2 me back I can probably confirm that. 3 BABBITT: Okay. 4 CARSON: If I can find LACROIX here. 5 BABBITT: Okay. 6 CARSON: Okay. 7 BABBITT: All right I'll ah get that drawn up I'll 8 get hold ah Marilyn there. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 BABBITT: And I'll call you back. 11 CARSON: Are you mean once you get it drawn up give 12 me a call back on this same line. If you 13 call this line you should be able to get 14 through. 15 BABBITT: Okay. 16 CARSON: Okay. 17 BABBITT: All right. 18 CARSON: Thanks. 19 BABBITT: Bye. 20 CARSON: Bye bye. 21 22 End of Conversation. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And at page 429 of the transcript,
671 you indicate that: 2 "I'm just going to check on a couple of 3 details about how the vehicle was 4 damaged. I want to make sure I've got 5 that straight." 6 And at this point in time, you indicate 7 that the vehicle was damaged by baseball bats; that was 8 your belief? 9 A: That was my understanding, yes. 10 Q: And who did you check with as to the 11 damage to the -- how the damage was caused to the car, do 12 you recall? 13 A: I don't. 14 Q: And when were you advised, if at all, 15 during the evening of the -- the morning of September the 16 7th, before this press release was distributed, that the 17 car was actually damaged by a rock and not by baseball 18 bats? 19 A: It was a long time after the event 20 before I learned that. 21 Q: When you say "a long time after the 22 event", what... 23 A: I would suggest more than a year. 24 Q: More than a year later? 25 A: Correct.
681 Q: And the -- how did you learn that? 2 Was at the review in February of 1996? 3 A: Oh, no. It would have been as a 4 result of one of the criminal prosecutions. 5 Q: And did Inspector Linton tell you 6 what the scribe notes indicate that Mark Dew told him at 7 10:44 about the incident with the car? 8 Did Inspector Linton give you any 9 information as to what he had learned from Mark Dew after 10 the -- the deployment of the crowd management unit? 11 A: I don't recall ever having a 12 discussion about the car incident after the deployment of 13 crowd management. 14 Q: Okay. And the scribe notes indicate 15 at page 84 that: 16 "John Carson to speak to Spike on 17 roadway with Mark Wright." 18 And, "Spike" is Mr. Ron George? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And can you tell us about this 21 conversation with Mr. Ron George? 22 A: I was -- 23 Q: Now Inspector Ron George? 24 A: Correct. I was in the command post 25 at that moment and Ron arrived at the Forest Detachment
691 and it was brought to my attention he wanted to speak to 2 me. And I exited the command trailer and I believe Mark 3 Wright was with me and I met with Ron on the front lawn 4 of Forest Detachment. 5 And there was someone else in with him and 6 it says here that it's Dudley's oldest brother, but quite 7 frankly, I -- I couldn't remember if that's -- that's the 8 case or not, there was -- he wasn't alone. 9 Q: Do you remember anything beyond 10 what's in your notes? 11 A: Well, I -- yes. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: He -- he was upset. He wanted to 14 know what happened and -- and he made a comment, did we 15 put a gun in his hand? And you know, we -- we had some 16 discussion about that and... 17 Q: When you say you, "had some 18 discussions about what -- that," what do you recall about 19 those discussions? 20 A: Well -- 21 Q: I'd like you to tell me 22 everything you can remember. 23 A: Well, it's -- I mean, Ron was upset 24 and understandably so. He was trying to determine some 25 information regarding the events that had taken place.
701 He made that comment and -- and I -- I think I said 2 something to the effect like, you -- you know better than 3 that. And, I mean, we had known each other for some 4 period of time. 5 And, basically, I directed him that -- or 6 informed him that they were at Strathroy Hospital and he 7 was going to proceed on to there. It was a fairly short 8 discussion; didn't spend very much time there. I really 9 didn't have a lot of information to assist him, quite 10 frankly. 11 Q: And -- and the reference with respect 12 to, "a gun in his hand," what was that in -- who was that 13 in relation to? 14 A: The deceased. 15 Q: And that was Mr. Dudley George? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And did you attribute that comment by 18 Mr. -- Mr. Ron George to anything in particular? 19 A: Just the fact that he was upset and 20 emotional about what had happened and I think he was, 21 like everybody, very distraught and upset about what was 22 -- what had taken place. 23 Q: And the -- your notes indicate a 24 little bit more than you've just told us, can you refer 25 to them and does that assist you?
711 A: Well, he also asked the question, Did 2 you find guns on the bus? So, obviously I had given some 3 indication as I have in my other commentary here earlier 4 that he had taken fire from the car and the bus. 5 So, he obviously posed that question and 6 it was captured by the scribe. 7 Q: Okay. Then, there's a note at the 8 bottom. Did -- did Mr. Reg George say any -- do you 9 recall who the -- who the other person was, the name of 10 the other person other than the brother of Dudley George? 11 A: No, I -- sorry. 12 Q: And at the bottom of the page at 80 - 13 - at 1:28 hours, there's a reference with respect to 14 Chief Tom Bressette? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And can you tell us about that? 17 A: Chief Bressette came to the command 18 post also and he was asking about Bernard George. And 19 again I gave him an overview of the facts as I knew them. 20 And Mark Wright indicated what had taken place regards to 21 the damaged vehicle and Chief Bressette indicated that, 22 you know, You know I don't I support them, but he wasn't 23 happy. 24 He said, I don't think this night time 25 business should have been -- I think this night time
721 business should have been done in the day time. And 2 quite frankly, we agreed and I -- I certainly indicated 3 that we didn't want this either and he indicated that he 4 has a mob of people upset with him. 5 He -- I got the sense that he was taking a 6 fair bit of the brunt of the frustration of many of the 7 Kettle Point residents. 8 Q: And then there's a note further on at 9 136. 10 A: Yes, I indicated the injuries as -- 11 again, as I knew them. He wanted to know where Cecil 12 Bernard George was at and he indicated that, you know, 13 they should have stayed out of there. 14 They had the Base, they should have 15 waited. He said, I'm not blaming you, they were 16 disgraceful. He had seen them on TV and he only blames 17 one (1) person, and that's Maynard George. 18 Q: That's Maynard T. George? 19 A: Maynard T., yes, not to be confused. 20 "They will be upset with me, because I 21 didn't support them." 22 And he was pretty clear that Chief 23 Bressette was certainly experiencing significant anxiety 24 about the blame he felt he was going to receive over 25 this.
731 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: And the note appears to continue at 5 141? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Yes. 10 "Tom Bressette indicated that they -- 11 there was never a land claim on that 12 Park. It was -- it was Jewels --" 13 And that's Les and Russ Jewel they're 14 talking about, 15 "-- that caused this. Gerald was 16 talking to the officers and told me 17 those guys just started pelting the 18 police with rocks." 19 Q: Then -- now who said -- who said 20 that, what's your reaction as to who said that line with 21 respect to Gerald is talking to the officers? 22 A: Oh, that -- that's Tom Bressette. 23 Q: And then Mark Wright was with you 24 during this conversation, it's... 25 A: Correct, according to the notes. I
741 believe he was. 2 Q: And there's a reference to Mark 3 Wright. What, if anything, do you recall Mark Wright 4 saying about Cecil Bernard George? 5 A: He indicated there was reported shot 6 and being transferred and I'm not sure what -- it says to 7 Long. I'm not sure that that -- oh, it must be to 8 London, it's probably what they meant to say. 9 But the information was very conflicting 10 at this point in time and obviously Cecil Bernard George 11 was not the subject of any gunshot wounds that I'm aware 12 of. 13 Q: But Mark -- do you recall Mark Wright 14 saying that to Chief Tom Bressette? 15 A: No, sir. 16 Q: And at the top of page, at page 85, 17 there's a note: 18 "Mark Wright spoke about the incident 19 with Worm damage vehicle." 20 Do you recall what Mark Wright said about 21 the vehicle? 22 A: No, I'm afraid from memory, I -- I 23 simply don't know. 24 Q: And Worm is Mr. Stuart George, do 25 you --
751 A: I believe so, that's who he'd be 2 referring to. 3 Q: And then you were -- and the vehicle 4 that's being referred to is the vehicle that was 5 assaulted -- the vehicle that had been damaged earlier in 6 the evening? 7 A: Yes, that's -- I believe the 8 discussion that we're speaking of, yes. 9 Q: Perhaps this would be an appropriate 10 time for the morning break? 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 for fifteen (15) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 10:24 a.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 10:47 a.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed, please be seated. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Deputy Carson, we were discussing 22 your meeting with Chief Tom Bressette on the early 23 morning during the night of September 7th and we were at 24 page 85 of Exhibit 426 and there's a note at 1:34 -- 25 A: Yes?
761 Q: -- Wade Lacroix to John Carson? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: What was that about? 4 A: Well, there was a large group of 5 people from Kettle Point who were headed to the Army Base 6 by way of 21 Highway on foot. 7 Q: And did Wade Lacroix -- at this point 8 in time -- at this point in time, I understand from what 9 you said before the break, you were outside speaking to 10 Chief Tom Bressette? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And did Wade Lacroix come out and 13 tell you this? Do you... 14 A: He -- he must have. 15 Q: Do you have any recollection beyond 16 what's in the note? 17 A: Other than I was aware I -- you know, 18 memory-wise, I can tell you I knew there was a group of 19 people moving from Kettle Point to the Army Camp, but to 20 say that I recall Lacroix being the one who told me that, 21 no, sir. 22 Q: And the reference to, 23 "We have to treat it as a crime scene, 24 but I don't want to see anyone get 25 injured over it."
771 What's that refer to? 2 A: Well, the -- the area down on the 3 corner of Parkway and Army Camp Road where the 4 altercation has taken place is, in fact, a crime scene 5 and has to be protected as a crime scene for the obvious 6 investigations that are necessary. 7 And that -- I was just pointing out that, 8 you know, we have a crime scene there, but at the same 9 time, I don't want anybody else getting hurt and we -- we 10 have to do what we have to do. But at the same time, use 11 caution here and make sure that nobody else gets hurt. 12 Q: And at this point in time what steps, 13 if any, had taken place to secure the crime scene, and 14 that's the sandy parking lot? 15 A: Right. Quite frankly, all that had 16 been done was the -- the TRU team and ERT personnel down 17 at the TOC site had been tasked to keep observation on 18 the area, basically. 19 Certainly it was not secured in the 20 fashion that we would normally conduct a secure scene. 21 Q: And -- and so it was simply the TRU 22 team was deployed to simply observe? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Then, you then -- there's a note at 25 1:49, spoke to Sergeant Babbitt again?
781 A: Right. Apparently, I was called back 2 into the trailer. 3 Q: And the call, for the benefit of My 4 Friends, is at -- it's Call Number 72 and it's Tab 70 -- 5 excuse me, Tab 71. And the call is noted at 1:40 in the 6 -- on the transcript, Commissioner, but 1:49 on the 7 scribe note at page 85. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 10 11 KOROSEC/BABBITT and CARSON/BABBITT 12 13 September 7, 1995 14 TIME: 01:40:48 hours 15 Track 3.wav 16 PETERMAN: Command Post PETERMAN. 17 BABBITT: Hi PETERMAN BABBITT here. 18 PETERMAN: Yeah hi Doug. 19 BABBITT: Is John CARSON there that I could speak to 20 him. 21 PETERMAN: Um he's outside ah in the parking lot 22 still with the ah ah what's his name with 23 the Chief I think it is. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLER:
791 Q: You were out with Chief Bressette at 2 the time? 3 A: That's correct. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 6 7 BABBITT: Chief COLES. 8 PETERMAN: Yep. 9 BABBITT: Okay would you just um just tell him that 10 BABBITT'S on the phone and will remain on 11 the line until he gets an opportunity to 12 speak to me cause if I get off the line I 13 may not get through again it's ridiculous 14 here the phones. 15 PETERMAN: Okay so you just want to stay on hold 16 until he can come in. 17 BABBITT: You just just say excuse me ah Sgt. 18 BABBITT'S 19 PETERMAN: Yep will do Doug. 20 BABBITT: on hold and will wait until. 21 PETERMAN: Yep. 22 BABBITT: You're through there. 23 PETERMAN: Okay hold on. 24 BABBITT: Yep. 25 MALE: (In background) Do you want (u/i) faxed to
801 ah Forest so he can see it? 2 BABBITT: (to background) no he just wants me to 3 read it to him right now so if he can 4 print out another copy he's talking to 5 Chief COLES right now. 6 MALE: (in background) okay. 7 KOROSEC: Doug. 8 BABBITT: Yes. 9 KOROSEC: It's Stan KOROSEC here. 10 BABBITT: Yes Stan. 11 KOROSEC: Yeah uh John as as you know is extremely 12 extremely busy. 13 BABBITT: Oh I know that. 14 KOROSEC: Okay. 15 BABBITT: But I he told me to call him back. 16 KOROSEC: Yep. 17 BABBITT: And I can't do anything till I read this 18 to him. 19 KOROSEC: Yep yep but this you know 20 BABBITT: I'll gladly hold the line here. 21 KOROSEC: Okay you know all our guys are all right. 22 BABBITT: Yes I do know that. 23 KOROSEC: Ah just an ankle injury. 24 BABBITT: Okay. 25 KOROSEC: Okay um I don't know this is not for your
811 press release we're just shooting the 2 breeze um but ah all our guys are okay. 3 They tried we're on a secure line. 4 BABBITT: Yep we are. 5 (Simultaneously talking) 6 MALE: Yep we are. 7 KOROSEC: Um they tried to run after the Crowd run 8 over the Crowd Management Team with the 9 school bus. 10 BABBITT: Uhum. 11 KOROSEC: And then two (2) vehicles ah behind the 12 school bus came out with guns a blazing. 13 BABBITT: Isn't that ridiculous. 14 KOROSEC: And then our guy our ERT guys and the ah 15 TRU CR Teams um opened up fire on em. 16 I'll put you on hold because I'll be busy. 17 BABBITT: Yeah just before you you go um do we have 18 the (u/i) or did they leave the scene. We 19 don't (u/i) have em right now. 20 (background radio noise) 21 KOROSEC: Just a second just a second. 22 (over radio) (u/i) car just roaming all over in the park 23 now. 24 KOROSEC: Okay ah what did you ask? 25 BABBITT: My question is is do we have the bucks in
821 the two (2) vehicles or are they back in 2 there and we don't have them. 3 KOROSEC: Ah I have no idea I have no idea. 4 BABBITT: Like I wonder did they must of scooted 5 back I guess. 6 KOROSEC: Well I I I have no idea. 7 BABBITT: Okay. 8 KOROSEC: Okay John's gonna be on his way in. 9 BABBITT: Thanks. 10 KOROSEC: (U/I) I mean like people have a we've 11 vacated that scene pretty well. I don't 12 know if the bus is still there or the 13 vehicles. 14 BABBITT: Okay. 15 KOROSEC: But ah 16 BABBITT: Have people been evacuated from the area? 17 KOROSEC: (Sigh) we 18 BABBITT: I'll talk to John. 19 KOROSEC: Yeah it's very difficult to do right now. 20 BABBITT: Yep. 21 KOROSEC: We've go ah ah plan that was in effect 22 from before um with checkpoints set up 23 right now. 24 BABBITT: Okay. 25 KOROSEC: And ah
831 CARSON: Is that BABBITT. 2 KOROSEC: Yep okay I'll put him I'll put you to 3 John. 4 BABBITT: Okay. 5 CARSON: I've got it here ah Dough. 6 BABBITT: Yes. 7 CARSON: John. 8 BABBITT: Okay we um are you ready do you have a 9 minute I don't want to bother you. 10 CARSON: Well I I got a note here I've got to call 11 SIU so this is our one (1) opportunity to 12 discuss this. 13 BABBITT: Yeah. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 BABBITT: On Wednesday the sixth (6th) of September 16 nineteen ninety-five (1995) at seven (7) 17 fifty-five (55) p.m. a disturbance was 18 reported to the OPP at Parkway Drive and 19 Army Camp Road where police had removed a 20 number of picnic tables and two (2) tents 21 from the public roadway yesterday. A 22 private citizen 23 CARSON: (U/i) okay you say yesterday in relation 24 to 25 BABBITT: This is the seventh (7) we're releasing
841 it. 2 CARSON: Okay okay yep okay okay yep. 3 BABBITT: A private citizen's vehicle was damaged by 4 a member of First Nations people armed 5 with baseball bats. As a result of this 6 the OPP Crowd Management Team was deployed 7 to disperse the crowd of First Nations 8 people which had gathered at the location 9 which is township9 property adjacent to 10 Ipperwash Provincial Park and local 11 cottages. As the crowd was dispersing in 12 Ipperwash Provincial Park officers were 13 confronted by First Nations persons 14 hurling rocks at the officers. As the 15 Crowd Management Unit was leaving the area 16 a school bus and a full sized vehicle 17 drove through the provincial park fence 18 striking a dumpster then pushing the 19 dumpster and the vehicles into the Crowd 20 Management Team. Occupants of those two 21 (2) vehicles fired upon police officers 22 and subsequently police officers returned 23 fire. There is one First Nations person 24 fatally injured and two (2) First Nations 25 persons seriously injured. Identification
851 is not being released pending notification 2 of next of kin. The Special Investigation 3 Unit has been notified and is now 4 investigating the shooting incident. Any 5 further information pertaining to this 6 incident will be released by SIU. 7 CARSON: Okay (u/i). 8 BABBITT: I talked to Marilyn and we've made a 9 couple of changes and and this is the 10 final product. 11 CARSON: Okay (to background) ah ah Stanley does 12 the ah when that deal happened this 13 afternoon to that car at the corner there 14 the when the car got thumped upon there. 15 KOROSEC: (in background) yep. 16 CARSON: (In background) it was thumped with 17 baseball bats. 18 KOROSEC: (in background) that's my understanding we 19 have a statement here from ah (u/i). 20 CARSON: Let her go. 21 BABBITT: Okay. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 BABBITT: Ah the other thing that I had told the 24 media earlier which I forgot to tell yah 25 is that the OPP had no planned operation.
861 CARSON: Right. 2 BABBITT: For tonight. 3 CARSON: Right. 4 BABBITT: Okay. 5 CARSON: That's exactly right. 6 BABBITT: All right. 7 CARSON: Okay. 8 BABBITT: Okay now we'll send it out and we've got 9 lots outside here and lots of calls. 10 CARSON: Okay. 11 BABBITT: We'll see yah. 12 CARSON: Thanks. 13 BABBITT: Take care eh. 14 CARSON: Right oh. 15 BABBITT: Okay. 16 CARSON: Thanks guy. 17 18 End of Conversation. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And in that red folder in front of 22 you, there is a copy of Inquiry document 1009047, an 23 Ontario Provincial Police news release, and is that the 24 press release sent out by Sergeant Babbitt on behalf of 25 the Ontario Provincial Police?
871 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: And do you know when that press 3 release was actually sent out to the media? The note on 4 the fax cover of -- on the fax -- on this copy of the 5 press release, it says 6:09 a.m. on September 7th, but 6 I'm not -- I don't know if that's when it was actually 7 sent out. 8 A: I suspect Sergeant Babbitt would have 9 the exact time, but I would believe it would be much 10 earlier than that. 11 Q: Okay. And the -- but this is a copy 12 of -- of the press release that was released? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 15 exhibit, Commissioner? 16 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P-440, your 17 Honour. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 440. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-440: Document 1009047 News Release 21 from OPP September 07/'95 re: 22 September 06/'95 Stopping of 23 First Nations Persons by OPP 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
881 Q: And I note in the conversation that 2 you had with Sergeant Babbitt at Tab 71, page 441, that 3 you asked Stan Korosec for confirmation that the car had 4 been thumped with baseball bats? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And that was an important factor to 7 you? 8 A: Yes. I was trying to be accurate. 9 Q: And that had been an important -- had 10 been a factor in your decision with respect to the crowd 11 management unit? 12 A: It was a factor, yes. 13 Q: And as it turned out, that factor was 14 incorrect? 15 A: That's my understanding. 16 Q: And you then spoke to a gentleman 17 from the SIU by the name of Robert Slack and I'm not 18 going to play it, but he had called -- there's a note in 19 the scribe notes at approximately 1:52, and the -- that 20 John -- you were to call him and you did call him. 21 It's Tab 72 at approximately 1:47 on the 22 morning of September 7th? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And it is Call Number 73 on the 25 Carson master complete final list.
891 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 4 5 CARSON to SLACK of SIU 6 7 September 7, 1995 8 TIME: 01:47:25 hours 9 Track 3.wav 10 (phone ringing) 11 SLACK: Bob SLACK speaking. 12 CARSON: Bob it's ah Inspector John CARSON ah OPP 13 London. 14 SLACK: How are yah John? 15 CARSON: I've been better. 16 SLACK: I guess so. 17 CARSON: Yeah. 18 SLACK: Okay what time this happen John roughly 19 what time did the ah B&E's happen sometime 20 in the afternoon yesterday or last evening 21 err? 22 CARSON: Ah well a minute back up, B&E's. 23 SLACK: I've been told that originally this kind 24 of started as perhaps some B&E's or damage 25 to cottages in the area.
901 CARSON: Okay oh oh okay oh oh okay what happened 2 is there was a ah there was an occupation 3 of Camp Ipper Ipperwash Provincial Park. 4 SLACK: Yep. 5 CARSON: Okay there's property adjacent to that ah 6 for lack of a better term a road that runs 7 east and west that ah is on the south side 8 of the Provincial Park where there is a 9 large parking area and that parking lot 10 separates the Provincial Park to the area 11 where the cottages start going down the 12 lakefront. 13 SLACK: Yep. 14 CARSON: Okay does that make sense? 15 SLACK: Yes. 16 CARSON: Okay in that area this morning or 17 yesterday morning now ah we had our 18 members remove a bunch of picnic tables 19 that had been setup in there and a couple 20 camp ah camp ah ah camp sites that were 21 set up in there. 22 SLACK: Oh yeah. 23 CARSON: So those were removed this morning and ah 24 you know we believe it was ah First 25 Nations well a matter of fact we've
911 identified First Nations person who who 2 was one of the campers there and we've ah 3 ah processed you know for a warrant to 4 arrest for ah Mischief and ah other um 5 Possession of Stolen Property out there in 6 regards to picnic tables that were taken 7 from Ipperwash Park. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And that was Dudley George? 11 A: Correct. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 14 15 SLACK: Okay. 16 CARSON: Ah tonight ah around eight (8) o'clock 17 we've got a report from a counsellor from 18 Kettle Point that he had been down in that 19 area going by and First Nations people ah 20 at that time ah approached him and ah 21 there was a confrontation of sorts with a 22 baseball bat I I'm led to believe that ah 23 his vehicle was struck ah by the First 24 Nations people. 25 SLACK: Uhm.
921 CARSON: So ah when we went down there to check it 2 out there was a group of officers had ah 3 congregated err officers a group of First 4 nations people had congregated there and 5 ah and ah had ah bunch of ah rocks and 6 baseball bats and that type of thing ah ah 7 setup in that parking lot area. 8 SLACK: Uhum yep. 9 CARSON: Okay so that's that's basically sets the 10 stage if you would. 11 SLACK: Okay yep. 12 CARSON: Okay what else do you need? 13 SLACK: Ah so then as a result of that um I 14 understand that your people made an 15 arrest. 16 CARSON: Ah well we ah deployed the ah Crowd 17 Management Unit. 18 SLACK: Right. 19 CARSON: The ah the ah ah like the unit were moved 20 into position and when they come up the 21 road the natives ah run back into the park 22 basically ov over the fence. 23 SLACK: Yep. 24 CARSON: And ah our folks were ah ah backing away 25 or removing moving a way back ah the
931 direction in which they had come and ah 2 they came back over the fence hurling 3 rocks and ah sticks and things and some of 4 our people took two (2) by fours (4's) 5 across the back and that type of thing. 6 SLACK: Right. 7 CARSON: As a result of that one (1) person was 8 arrested. 9 SLACK: Okay. 10 CARSON: Ah then ah the Fist Nations people went 11 back over the fence and our unit was back 12 backed away and they seemed to have ah 13 settled down into the ah into the park and 14 our our people were literally being 15 recalled ah and ah you know re ah 16 regrouping to to go back to the assembly 17 area. 18 SLACK: Uhum. 19 CARSON: Ah do you want all the facts? 20 SLACK: Sure. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 SLACK: Yep. 23 CARSON: How much of this am I liable for here? 24 SLACK: (Laughs). 25 CARSON: I haven't called my lawyer yet.
941 SLACK: No you're all right. 2 CARSON: Okay um. 3 SLACK: It's kind of the first story I got from 4 Larry EDGAR but it's not quite the same. 5 CARSON: Okay it's it's my understanding I wasn't 6 on the frontline I was I was in the ah 7 Command vehicle down there. 8 SLACK: Yep. 9 CARSON: But ah it's my understanding at that point 10 as the officers were ah leaving the area 11 ah as a group and we had about I'm going 12 to say roughly forty (40) officers give or 13 take a few ah so they were leaving the 14 area a bus a school bus and a car came 15 through a through the fence there's a oh 16 you know the typical farm type fence. 17 SLACK: Uhum. 18 CARSON: Ah just a wire fence. 19 SLACK: Yep. 20 CARSON: Ah ah they struck a ah dumpster that was 21 ah sitting by the fence with a bus pushing 22 it through the fence and the car and the 23 bus came out and drove directly into the 24 ah group of officers. Um as the officers 25 dove for cover basically er dove out of
951 the way it MR. SHORTT: ah ah ah ah ah a 2 handgun fire came out of one vehicle and 3 it's believed a long gunfire out of the 4 other vehicle and they returned fire. 5 SLACK: Right okay were those TRU Team officers or 6 were they ah separate but (u/i) Crowd 7 Management. 8 CARSON: These were Crowd Management but we had TRU 9 as observation covers so there are some 10 shots from TRU personnel who are set up as 11 an observation team. 12 SLACK: Okay okay then I gather ah your people 13 then ah continue with the arrest withdraw. 14 CARSON: Oh yes. 15 SLACK: And the native ah the two (2) vehicles go 16 back into the Camp area. 17 CARSON: That's right. 18 SLACK: Okay then I as I understand it ah a short 19 while later a nine one one (911) call is 20 received reporting a person shot. 21 CARSON: That's my understanding. 22 SLACK: And then I'm advised that not long after 23 that ah people arrive at the Strathroy 24 Hospital and ah there is a dead person and 25 a wounded person.
961 CARSON: That's right. 2 SLACK: Okay. 3 CARSON: Ah right now there appears to be one (1) 4 dead and two (2) seriously injured. 5 SLACK: All right. 6 CARSON: Now we we have a mess for a crime scene. 7 SLACK: I bet. 8 CARSON: Ah it's not save in there. 9 SLACK: No. 10 CARSON: Ah we have TRU team deployed we have a ah 11 ah an operations ah post about half a 12 kilometre from there. I've got TRU team 13 posted in there to literally protect our 14 people. We've we've received several 15 death threats here at the office already. 16 SLACK: Yeah. 17 CARSON: So ah we we've you know we've had native 18 ah members of the native ah ah I apologize 19 for being slow getting MR. RONALD ACKROYD: 20 to you. 21 SLACK: That's okay. 22 CARSON: I understand your message came in a while 23 ago but I was tied up with the ah Chief of 24 the Kettle Stoney Point Band. 25 SLACK: Yeah that's fine I (u/i).
971 CARSON: Yeah you know I was trying to ah settle 2 down their concerns to the best I can. 3 SLACK: Sure. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 SLACK: Sure who's ah who's kind of over all going 6 to negotiate with them or whatever ah 7 somebody else's name was given to me Chris 8 COLES. 9 CARSON: Yes. 10 SLACK: Okay so is he ah 11 CARSON: He's the Chief Superintendent here. 12 SLACK: Yeah. 13 CARSON: This region. 14 SLACK: Okay all right we're going to deploy 15 CARSON: Yes. 16 SLACK: ah four (4) investigators. 17 CARSON: Yeah. 18 SLACK: Up to there. 19 CARSON: Yeah. 20 SLACK: They're going to come to I've been told to 21 send them to the Forest Detachment. 22 CARSON: Yep. 23 SLACK: Is that right? 24 CARSON: Yep that's where we are. 25 SLACK: Okay.
981 CARSON: Yeah. 2 SLACK: And we may sit and twiddle our thumbs for 3 who knows how long you don't have a 4 problem with that. 5 CARSON: Yeah well we we are going to be court 6 tomorrow morning at nine (9) o'clock to 7 seek a court injunction in regards to the 8 Ipperwash Park. 9 SLACK: Yes. 10 CARSON: And ah I tell you it is unsafe as hell 11 around here right now. 12 SLACK: Yeah. 13 CARSON: I've I've moved road blocks out beyond the 14 Military Base ah basically about a four 15 (4) mile wide circle. 16 SLACK: Okay. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 SLACK: All right all right um I guess Bob GOODALL 19 is on his way. 20 CARSON: Oh is that who's assigned? 21 SLACK: Yes. 22 CARSON: I I haven't even got back to our duty 23 officer. 24 SLACK: Yeah he's on his way and he's going to do 25 the parallel.
991 CARSON: Okay. 2 SLACK: And be our liaison. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 SLACK: And we'll try not to bug you we'll bug 5 Bob. 6 CARSON: Oh that's good. 7 SLACK: And ah (laughs). 8 CARSON: He's a good guy to bug. 9 SLACK: You've got your hands full. 10 CARSON: I do (laughs). 11 SLACK: I just wanted to let you know that we are 12 going to respond and ah we'll be in the 13 area for when whoever is able to do some 14 negotiating or whatever and and let the 15 Chiefs of the banks know what we're about. 16 CARSON: Right. 17 SLACK: And by we're there. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 SLACK: In the event we can they will allow us to 20 do something. 21 CARSON: Right well there's some serious serious 22 community hostility right now. 23 SLACK: Yeah. 24 CARSON: Yeah. 25 SLACK: Is is this just a faction that's done
1001 this. 2 CARSON: Yes they're a break away group who are not 3 who are not supported by the the the local 4 band and it's you know it is just a 5 convoluted mess. 6 SLACK: Yeah. 7 CARSON: You know a matter of fact if you're 8 following the issue in BC at all it it's 9 very very reminiscent of their problems. 10 SLACK: Yeah. 11 CARSON: It's a group who have no recogitnion by 12 anybody on land that has no native land 13 claim a to it whatsoever they just decided 14 that this park is our park and that's all 15 there is to it. 16 SLACK: Oh yeah. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 SLACK: I just spent the weekend up next to 19 Sergeant Monads. 20 CARSON: Oh my okay I hear yah. 21 SLACK: They did the saem thing up there but I 22 guess that is their land and they lease it 23 to the government and the lease ran out so 24 they 25 CARSON: Yeah.
1011 SLACK: took it over but it was very peaceful and 2 I was over there but ah there was no 3 problem but ah this is obviously a little 4 a little different kettle of fish. 5 CARSON: Yep you've got err. 6 SLACK: So. 7 CARSON: Okay. 8 SLACK: Okay we will ah be in touch with Bob 9 GOODALL. 10 CARSON: Okay. 11 SLACK: And we'll be up in that area we'll we'll 12 arrive at the Forest Detachment somewhere 13 in the next couple of hours anyway. 14 CARSON: Okay we'll I'll be around for a while. 15 SLACK: Okay. 16 CARSON: Sure I won't be going to bed for a few 17 hours. 18 SLACK: Alrighty. 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 SLACK: Thanks a lot. 21 CARSON: Thank you. 22 SLACK: All right bye. 23 CARSON: Bye. 24 25 End of Conversation.
1021 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And if I could take you to page 444 3 of the transcript at Tab 72 and the -- your reference, 4 the third reference down where it says: 5 "We've got a report from a councillor 6 from Kettle Point that he had been down 7 in that area going by." 8 Do you see that reference? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And when did you learn that the 11 report, with respect to the vehicle, was from a 12 councillor from Kettle Point? 13 A: Quite frankly, I had no idea. 14 Q: And at the time do you have any 15 recollection at -- back on the morning of September 7th, 16 as to who the councillor was? 17 A: I don't think I knew that. 18 Q: And when did you learn who the 19 councillor was? 20 A: Again it would be a significant 21 period of time after, probably a week anyway. 22 Q: Then -- and who did you learn -- what 23 was the name of the person that you learned -- who the 24 councillor was? 25 A: Gerald George.
1031 Q: And -- 2 A: And Gerald had been the individual 3 who had been subject of writing a letter to the editor of 4 the Forest paper previously about the actions of the 5 occupiers which had caused some consternation. 6 Q: And had you seen the letter to the 7 editor? 8 A: Yes, I had a copy of it. 9 Q: And that is Exhibit... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Excuse me, Commissioner. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-73. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-73? Perhaps we 19 could show that to Deputy Carson. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
1041 Q: And that's a letter to the editor of 2 the Forest Standard that was published, I believe, on 3 August -- August 30, 1995? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And did you see this letter prior to 6 September 6th, 1995? 7 A: I believe I had a copy of it when it 8 was initially published; whatever day it was -- 9 Q: Published in the newspaper? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the -- you understood when -- did 12 you read it when it was published in the newspaper? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you knew it was critical of the 15 occupiers? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the -- but on the -- the morning 18 of September the 7th, you didn't know who the counsellor 19 was, you simply learned that later on, that it was 20 Gerald, or -- 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: Thank you. Now, at 2:11, if I could 23 take you to page 86 of Exhibit 426... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1051 Q: There are -- is a reference at 2:11, 2 and this appears to be a communication from Sergeant 3 Richardson to you? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And can you tell us about this 6 communication? 7 A: Well, as the entry indicates, Trevor 8 Richardson called me to confirm the deceased was Dudley 9 George, had a shot to the chest. 10 "Seized car that he was transported in 11 to Strathroy. Three (3) occupants 12 arrested. The St. John's Ambulance 13 arrived. Cecil Bernard George, 14 Cottrelle, shot in rear." 15 Q: And were you advised, at that time, 16 who the occupants of the car were that were arrested? 17 A: Not that I can recall. I don't 18 believe so. 19 Q: And was Trevor Richardson back at 20 Forest by this time? 21 A: Oh, I think he was calling from the 22 hospital, I believe. 23 Q: Well, if you look at the next 24 interest -- entry, it says: 25 "2:16 hours, Sergeant Parkins and Chief
1061 Superintendent Coles arrive. Trevor 2 Richardson and Bob Goodall en route to 3 hospital. Trevor Richardson reviews 4 injuries to Superintendent Parkin and 5 Chief Coles." 6 A: Well, obviously he was still at the 7 command post. 8 Q: It appears that he was still at the 9 command post? 10 A: Yeah. Yeah. 11 Q: Then the -- there's a note at page 12 87, at 2:45 hours, with respect to Fred Thomas, and Fred 13 Thomas was the mayor of the Township of Bosanquet? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And what does that refer to? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: I'm not a 100 percent sure, but I 20 think we had -- we had sent a couple officers over there 21 for security reasons. 22 Q: And can you recall today why? 23 A: I'm not sure of the information that 24 -- that -- that brought us there, quite frankly. 25 Q: Okay. There is a communication that
1071 had been received by the OPP, from Mayor Thomas, with 2 respect to a threat. Did you listen to -- hear that 3 communication at the time? 4 A: If I did, I can't recall it today. 5 Q: And -- but were you told that there 6 was a -- that Mayor -- Mr. Thomas had reported a threat, 7 at any time, that morning? 8 A: Well, put it this way, I'd be 9 surprised if I wasn't, but can I recollect it? No. 10 Q: Then you have a discussion with -- a 11 telephone call with Chief Bressette at approximately 2:54 12 in the morning of September 7th and it's noted at -- it's 13 with respect to Bonnie Bressette, but before we get that, 14 there's a note at 2:48: 15 "Dale Linton advised Chief Coles, John 16 Carson, and Tom Bressette of roadblock. 17 Tom Bressette to take care of same." 18 Do you know what that's referring to? 19 A: There was a fire built on Highway 21 20 right at the Kettle Point curve, and I believe this was a 21 discussion we had in regards to that bonfire that was 22 taking place. 23 Q: And at this point was Chief Bressette 24 at the command post again? 25 A: Just going from the notes he must
1081 have been. I -- I -- you know, I... 2 Q: And there is a note in -- a 3 communication at 2:38 that Chief Bressette was at the 4 command post, and given permission to enter. It's -- for 5 the benefit of My Friends, it's number 17 on the list, 6 Carson Edition Without Elapsed Time. 7 Then you had, as well, a conversation with 8 Chief Bressette at approximately 2:54 on September the 9 7th, and that is Call Number 74, Tab 73. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 12 13 CARSON and BRESSETTE 14 15 September 7, 1995 16 TIME: 02:34:09 hours 17 Track 1.wav 18 19 PETERMAN: Command Post PETERMAN. 20 BRESSETTE: Hi can I speak to Inspector CARSON. 21 PETERMAN: Ah who's calling? 22 BRESSETTE: Chief Tom BRESSETTE. 23 PETERMAN: Just a moment. 24 CARSON: Hello Tom. 25 BRESSETTE: Hello John.
1091 CARSON: Okay. 2 BRESSETTE: Um Bonnie's license plate number. 3 CARSON: Yes. 4 BRESSETTE: It's three (3) three (3) five (5) 335 CKJ. 5 CARSON: CKJ. 6 BRESSETTE: And ah it's an eight-five (85) Mazda. 7 CARSON: Okay. 8 BRESSETTE: It's red. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 BRESSETTE: And ah Bonnie BRESSETTE is going in and 11 here daughter Gail. 12 CARSON: Okay and daughter Gail. 13 BRESSETTE: So there is two (2) females. 14 CARSON: Okay and how old is Gail? 15 BRESSETTE: Gail is about thirty (30) or thirty-eight 16 (38). 17 CARSON: An adult then. 18 BRESSETTE: Yeah. 19 CARSON: Okay okay they heading over there now. 20 BRESSETTE: Yeah they'll be going down so. 21 CARSON: So they'll go they'll go up twenty-one 22 (21) ah through Revenswood right? 23 BRESSETTE: Well no they're gonna have to go around ah 24 up they they've got the highway on fire 25 (u/i).
1101 CARSON: Oh okay okay. 2 BRESSETTE: So I've gotta work this thing out so. 3 CARSON: Okay so so then they'll go ah. 4 BRESSETTE: They'll be down there somewhere I'm sure 5 how they're going to get there but. 6 CARSON: Okay I'll I'll pass that information to 7 the checkpoints right now okay. 8 BRESSETTE: All right. 9 CARSON: So you just her to got there and if and if 10 anybody is ah if there is any problem tell 11 her to have them call me personally. 12 BRESSETTE: Okay. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 BRESSETTE: Yep. 15 CARSON: Thanks Tom. 16 BRESSETTE: Thanks. 17 CARSON: All right. 18 BRESSETTE: Bye. 19 20 End of conversation. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And had you had a discussion, do you 24 recall, with Chief Bressette about Bonni Bressette before 25 this telephone call?
1111 A: There had been some discussion about 2 Bonni Bressette going to the Army Camp. And I believe 3 what was happening here was Chief Bressette was reporting 4 back with the license number so that we could facilitate 5 her movement, and be able to drive up to the -- up to the 6 Military Base. 7 Q: Okay 8 A: Because it -- 9 Q: And then there's a reference at 3:03 10 or 3:00 hours that: 11 "The license number, '85 red -- Mazda 12 red, with Bonni and Gail Bressette 13 going to Base with John Carson's 14 approval after vehicle is checked." 15 And were those your instructions? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the reference to, "after vehicle 18 is checked" was -- what's that refer to? 19 A: After it came to the checkpoint, they 20 would -- they would stop the vehicle and -- and check to 21 make sure that's, in fact, who it was, and they could 22 allow them to go through. 23 Q: And then there's a note at the -- 24 3:03, can you tell us what that's about? 25 A: Information came from the vessel that
1121 was posted off of Ipperwash Provincial Park on -- 2 Q: That's the H.H. Graham? 3 A: Correct. And the information came in 4 that the Provincial Park buildings were ablaze. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Then were was discussion at that 7 point about evacuation, and there's some discussion about 8 the -- how the occupants of the residence could drive 9 out. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: And Kent Skinner, the TRU team 12 leader, was going to look after having his team go down 13 and escort people out of the area. 14 Q: And anything else? 15 A: I've identified that the -- the 16 priority would be the homes that were along the 17 beachfront, and that would be between the Ipperwash Park 18 and -- and where the TOC -- MNR site was located, and 19 there was some discussion that the ERT officers could 20 look after the homes that were beyond the TOC site. 21 Q: And we've looked at this subject 22 earlier, with respect to the evacuation of the residents. 23 Did you receive a report, at this time, as to how the 24 work of Sergeant Reid was going, do you recall? 25 A: Quite frankly, I can't recall. But I
1131 know that all the residents did not get evacuated, I know 2 that. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: Some of the residents did not get 5 evacuated. 6 Q: And why was that? 7 A: I don't have the answer to that. 8 Q: Then I note that starting at 3:29 on 9 page 88 of Exhibit 426, you meet with Jim Kennedy of the 10 SIU, is that correct? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And then at 3:42 Inspector Bob 13 Goodall arrives? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you are with these gentlemen 16 until approximately 4:22 -- or 4:29 on page 91? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And there's a note at 3:50: 19 "John Carson called out regarding 20 probes and phone lines." 21 And what is the reference to probes and 22 phone lines? 23 A: That's the equipment that would have 24 been deployed in -- in the MNR buildings on Ipperwash 25 Park.
1141 Q: And that was in the -- in -- in which 2 buildings? The maintenance building? 3 A: The maintenance building, kiosk, and 4 I'm not sure if there had been any in the store, or not. 5 Q: Okay. And at this point in time, did 6 you -- when the H.H. Graham reported that buildings were 7 on fire at three -- approximately three o'clock in the 8 morning, September 7th, were you advised of which 9 buildings were on fire; did you know which buildings were 10 on fire? 11 A: I can't say if that information was 12 that specific or not. 13 Q: Okay. And then there's a note at the 14 top of page 92 at 04:33 hours. 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: Before I get there could I go back to 17 page 91? At 4:22 John Carson left room to speak with Les 18 Kobayashi -- Kobayashi, excuse me. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Do you recall what that was about? 21 A: No, but I can only assume that it 22 would be a discussion about the Park, and the events that 23 had taken place. And at this point, obviously, I knew 24 there was a fire there. 25 Q: And at 4:33 at the top of page 92:
1151 "Mark Wright reports that Cecil George 2 has injuries to his head. Are possibly 3 blunt instrument." 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And he told you that at that time? 6 A: Well, according to the note it 7 indicates that, yes. 8 Q: Do you have any recollection of that? 9 A: I -- I'm sorry, I don't. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: I -- I have to apologize, but at this 12 particular time -- or in this time frame, right here now, 13 in the past forty-eight (48) hours I'd had approximately 14 four (4) hours sleep. And quite frankly, my ability to 15 recall the exact events, at this point in time, are very 16 difficult. 17 Q: So at this point in time, in the 18 morning of September 7th, you had been up for forty-eight 19 (48) hours, except for the four (4) hours of sleep you -- 20 that you had on the evening of September -- morning of 21 September 5th? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And then the -- you had a telephone 24 call with Bonni Bressette, it's Tab 75. It's call 75. 25 And according to the transcript, the time is at 4:42 at -
1161 - in the morning of September the 7th. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 4 5 CARSON and Bonnie BRESSETTE 6 7 September 7, 1995 8 TIME: 04:42:22 hours 9 Track 1.wav 10 PETERMAN: Command Post PETERMAN. 11 BRESSETTE: Is Mr. CARSON there please. 12 PETERMAN: Ah can I ask who's calling. 13 BRESSETTE: It's Bonnie BRESSETTE. 14 PETERMAN: Just a moment please. 15 CARSON: John CARSON. 16 BRESSETTE: Hello Mr. CARSON Bonnie BRESSETTE calling. 17 CARSON: Hi Bonnie. 18 BRESSETTE: I was in there. 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 BRESSETTE: And ah there is still a lot of kids in 21 there. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 BRESSETTE: And ah probably about maybe four (4) or 24 five (5) car loads I didn't count them. 25 CARSON: Okay.
1171 BRESSETTE: They came out but the rest are staying 2 there and they've got some things they 3 want me to do and they want a couple I 4 don't you probably know ah Bob ANTONE and 5 ah Bruce ELIJAH. 6 CARSON: Uh huh. 7 BRESSETTE: I told them I would get hold of them. 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 BRESSETTE: And um. 10 CARSON: Bruce ELIJAH. 11 BRESSETTE: Yeah. 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 BRESSETTE: I'll I'll I'll call them. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 BRESSETTE: But um I think with all the kids that 16 still in there there's a lot of kids in 17 there yet. 18 CARSON: Okay how many people do you think in 19 there? 20 BRESSETTE: I would say probably might about twenty 21 (20) kids and I'd say maybe about forty 22 (40) forty (40) or fifty (50) adults. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 BRESSETTE: Is Mrs. GEORGE is a Melva GEORGE out your 25 office?
1181 CARSON: Uh I I don't I'm not sure like I I've been 2 ah behind close doors talking to some 3 people so she could be out talking to 4 somebody I have no idea. 5 BRESSETTE: No no they ah they that's one of the 6 things they asked me to find out where one 7 of their mothers was Melva GEORGE and 8 Marcia GEORGE they said they were picked 9 up. 10 CARSON: Picked up. 11 BRESSETTE: Yeah. 12 CARSON: By who. 13 BRESSETTE: By the police. 14 CARSON: For what? 15 BRESSETTE: I don't know but they've been taken some 16 place. 17 CARSON: I don't know why unless it was at unless 18 it was at a checkpoint was there a 19 problem. 20 BRESSETTE: Melva's an a elderly lade. 21 CARSON: Melva. 22 BRESSETTE: Yeah. 23 CARSON: Okay well I'll see what I can find out. 24 BRESSETTE: Melva and Marcia. 25 CARSON: Marcia.
1191 BRESSETTE: Mar yeah MARCIA. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 BRESSETTE: They're missing and they said ah somebody 4 told them the police took them and I told 5 them okay I'll find out where they are. 6 CARSON: Well just just ah well I'll find out right 7 away and get back to you but I'm not ah 8 aware of that. 9 BRESSETTE: Were you trying to call me on the cellular 10 phone. 11 CARSON: No no. 12 BRESSETTE: Somebody was. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 BRESSETTE: I cou that thing I can't work one of them. 15 CARSON: Well there the darnest thing. 16 BRESSETTE: Okay so that's there still's a lot of kids 17 in there and I would ask just give us time 18 wait till I can 19 CARSON: There's there's lots of time Bonnie. 20 BRESSETTE: Yeah Chris and Bruce I'll get Bruce ELIJAH 21 to come down. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 BRESSETTE: And Bob ANTONE. 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 BRESSETTE: And then I'll go back.
1201 CARSON: Okay now ah I guess the big thing is 2 concern is like like that is a crime scene 3 down there. Um like we have to be very 4 careful about access in and out that's why 5 you know. 6 BRESSETTE: There I haven't (u/i) and I'm not 7 stringing you no line. 8 CARSON: Oh. 9 BRESSETTE: I have not seen any weapons. 10 CARSON: Oh I wasn't even going to ask you that. 11 BRESSETTE: Um that's what surprised me on the whole 12 thing I took them down supper at about six 13 (6) o'clock. 14 CARSON: Oh. 15 BRESSETTE: Because there were so many kids down 16 there. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 BRESSETTE: And I went down this afternoon to talk to 19 them saying well what can we do. 20 CARSON: Right. 21 BRESSETTE: And ah you know what how can we help you 22 and what would make you leave here and ah 23 um then I've had a good talk with em a 24 matter a fact they were glad I dropped in. 25 CARSON: Right.
1211 BRESSETTE: And then I says I tell you what I'll bring 2 back some supper for everybody so I went 3 and got a bunch of lunch meat and stuff 4 and we left there about eight (8) o'clock 5 and I can't believe this happened. 6 CARSON: Oh I find it pretty hard to believe too 7 (u/i). 8 BRESSETTE: Well yeah it's a but there is not not all 9 I was hoping the kids would come out but 10 no there's a lot of them that still in 11 there so. 12 CARSON: Yeah when you say kids are you you talking 13 kids like ten (10) years old and under. 14 BRESSETTE: I'm talking yes. 15 CARSON: Is that right eh. 16 BRESSETTE: Yep. 17 CARSON: Jeez. 18 BRESSETTE: Yep. 19 CARSON: Is is their parents being there basically. 20 BRESSETTE: Yep. 21 CARSON: Okay okay. 22 BRESSETTE: Can you find out where Melva is though? 23 CARSON: Oh I I will I'll look into that right now 24 and can I where can I call you back. 25 BRESSETTE: I'm at the Kettle's On Restaurant they
1221 opened up here because we've got so many 2 people here. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 BRESSETTE: The number is seven (7) eight (8) six (6) 5 sixty-nine (69) twenty-nine (29). 6 CARSON: Okay. 7 BRESSETTE: Okay. 8 CARSON: I'll I'll I'll ah ah scramble. 9 BRESSETTE: Find out because they're I mean that's one 10 of the things they said you go find out 11 where my mother is. 12 CARSON: Well and and I appreciate that Bonnie and 13 I appreciate you going in there and and 14 doing what you've done and and calling us 15 okay. 16 BRESSETTE: (u/i). 17 CARSON: And I'll call you right back just as soon 18 as I find something out okay. Are you 19 still there. 20 (hanging up of phone). 21 (hanging up of phone). 22 23 End of Conversation. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
1231 Q: And you then called Bonni Bressette 2 back at 4:52 in the morning and that's -- the transcript 3 is at Tab 76 and it's call 76? 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 6 7 CARSON and Bonnie BRESSETTE 8 9 September 7, 1995 10 TIME: 04:52:42 hours 11 Track 1.wav 12 (phone dialling, phone ringing) 13 MALE: Hello yes. 14 CARSON: Bonnie BRESSETTE please. 15 MALE: Okay just hold on who's ah calling. 16 CARSON: It's John CARSON. 17 MALE: John CARSON. 18 CARSON: I'm returning her call. 19 MALE: Right. 20 CARSON: Thank you. 21 BRESSETTE: Hello. 22 CARSON: Bonnie. 23 BRESSETTE: Yes. 24 CARSON: John CARSON. 25 BRESSETTE: Yes we've been cut off there last time.
1241 CARSON: Well I I understand no problem ah Melva 2 was taken back to her house by one of our 3 officers was taken right back to her 4 house. 5 BRESSETTE: Okay. 6 CARSON: Over at Kettle Point. 7 BRESSETTE: Okay. 8 CARSON: And the other lady ah was ah suppose to 9 have been driven from here ah 10 (To background) Rob do you know how long 11 ago that she was taken back. 12 BRESSETTE: Okay somebody said they seen them out here 13 but what's going on out here now is 14 CARSON: Okay what happened was they that that car 15 the car that was being driven near ran 16 through one of the checkpoints the 17 officers were one of the checkpoints the 18 officers was was manning and he ran 19 through the checkpoint (u/i) failed to 20 stop for the police. 21 BRESSETTE: Uh huh. 22 CARSON: So she was arrested for failing to stop at 23 the roadblock. 24 BRESSETTE: Oh okay. 25 CARSON: So so the the elder lady that's Melva.
1251 BRESSETTE: Yeah. 2 CARSON: Okay so she was given a ride because she 3 was she was just a passenger so she was 4 given a ride home ah right onto her house 5 on Kettle Point and then the other lady ah 6 Marcia. 7 BRESSETTE: Yeah. 8 CARSON: SIMON. 9 BRESSETTE: Yeah. 10 CARSON: Okay she she was brought here to Forest 11 but has since been released and my 12 understanding is they drove her back to ah 13 around Kettle Point or Indian Hills till 14 they met up with the ah Kettle Point 15 officer. 16 BRESSETTE: Okay I'll find out where they are. What's 17 all that's everybody yelling that they're 18 coming out here with riot gear with for 19 have you heard anything on that. 20 CARSON: Well all all our our folks are in grey 21 gear they they we've had em in the gear 22 for days now. 23 BRESSETTE: There's about there's about two hundred 24 (200) or three hundred (300) up here. 25 CARSON: Yeah it's not very good right now.
1261 BRESSETTE: Okay I'll I'll go back out there but you 2 will just leave the others up there till 3 CARSON: We we 4 BRESSETTE: morning. 5 CARSON: Bon Bonnie we're not going on there at 6 all. 7 BRESSETTE: Okay. 8 CARSON: I I guarantee you that. 9 BRESSETTE: Oh you'll guarantee me that. 10 CARSON: I guarantee you that. 11 BRESSETTE: Okay. 12 CARSON: Uh all all we want to do is everybody sit 13 tight and get a cool head okay. 14 BRESSETTE: Okay that's what I would like. 15 CARSON: Okay and we got lots of time to talk. 16 BRESSETTE: Okay. 17 CARSON: And and I guarantee you personally you 18 know and I have talked before. 19 BRESSETTE: Uhum. 20 CARSON: That I give you my word that I will do 21 everything I can to to keep this as calm 22 as I can. 23 BRESSETTE: Okay. 24 CARSON: Okay and and as long as everybody can keep 25 their head cool nobody's going charging in
1271 or anything we we can talk this thing out. 2 BRESSETTE: Okay I'll I'll go back down there then. 3 CARSON: And and if you can tell them that (clears 4 throat) ah I'll be in your debt. 5 BRESSETTE: Okay. 6 CARSON: Okay. 7 BRESSETTE: Okay thank you very much. 8 CARSON: Thank you Bonnie. 9 BRESSETTE: Okay. 10 CARSON: All right. 11 12 End of Conversation. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And you wanted Bonni Bressette to 16 pass the message to the occupiers of the Army Camp? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And that message was that the police 19 were not going to take any steps with respect to the Army 20 Camp or the Park? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And the -- were you -- you were 23 concerned -- were you concerned, as a result of this 24 call, that the occupants of the Army Camp and the Park 25 thought the police were going to do something?
1281 A: I was very concerned, and not only 2 the occupants of the Park, but as Bonni Bressette 3 indicates, there was a number of people there who have 4 become very agitated thinking that the crowd management 5 officers are going to be deployed again. 6 I forget how she termed it but -- but 7 anyway clearly the -- the people who are concerned, my 8 sense of it wasn't so much the occupiers, but even the 9 Kettle Point people as well. 10 So I was certainly concerned that their 11 anxiety level was also at a very heightened state. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: And -- and I don't know where that 14 information came from because there was certainly -- I 15 mean, obviously, there is a lot of officers out there 16 working that night. And -- and of course we had all the 17 officers from both shifts working. 18 So it would appear to have been a larger 19 number of officers than they had seen in the day 20 previous. So, you know, obviously those kinds of things 21 were -- were taken, and extrapolated, and -- and thought 22 to mean certain things that may, in fact, not have been 23 the case. 24 Q: And at -- if I could take you to the 25 -- on this issue, in the logger note at page 92, there's
1291 a reference, at 4:48, to the call from Bonni Bressette. 2 And then at 4:43 there's a reference to you're off the 3 phone, and Rob Graham advised female prisoner Marsha 4 Simon was taken to golf course to be released. 5 Is that -- 6 A: Correct. Yes. 7 Q: And that's the information that you 8 provided to -- Bonnie Bressette came from Rob Graham? 9 A: I believe so. 10 Q: As noted in this note? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And at the top of the page, I started 13 to ask you about this, there's a reference at 4:33: 14 "Mark Wright reports Cecil George has 15 injuries to his head, are possibly 16 blunt instrument." 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And do you recall anything else about 19 this report? 20 A: In fact, if I wouldn't have read it 21 here, I would have recalled nothing of it. 22 Q: And was there any -- any indication 23 from Mr. Wright what the blunt instrument was? 24 A: Quite frankly I -- I can't -- I don't 25 have any context to the -- to the information whatsoever.
1301 Q: And then there's a note at page 93. 2 Tom -- at 6:05: 3 "Tom Bressette called back, Dale Linton 4 to disapprove false rumours. Dale 5 Linton called Chris Coles update to Tom 6 Bressette conversation." 7 Do you have any information as to what 8 this is about, Deputy Carson? 9 A: I have no idea at all. 10 Q: And about this time you left the 11 command post? 12 A: Yes. I think that's about the time I 13 left. 14 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends, 15 that I'm not going to play it, but on our list Carson 16 Edition Without Elapsed Time, there's a transmission at 17 6:21, it's Transmission Number 18 at 6:21 where it's 18 reported: 19 "24:03 Inspector Carson will be a 10-7, 20 at the motel, for a couple of hours. 21 Inspector Linton will be at the command 22 post." 23 10-7 means that you were -- 24 A: Off duty. 25 Q: -- off duty? And when did you come
1311 back on duty on September 7th? 2 A: I had a few hours sleep. It was 3 probably around ten o'clock in the morning. 4 Q: And if I could take you to Tab -- 5 page 103 of Exhibit 426. At 10:31 -- at 103 -- page 103 6 and there's a note at 10:31: 7 "John Carson and Jim Gordon and 8 communications discussing route we can 9 use to get to TOC." 10 And that's the first reference I can find 11 to you on the morning of September 7th? 12 A: Yes. When I -- when I returned, 13 Inspector Jim Gordon is the incident commander at that 14 point. 15 Q: And when you returned on the morning 16 of September 7th, did Jim Gordon remain as incident 17 commander or did you take over as incident commander 18 again? 19 A: No. He -- he was a designated 20 incident commander. 21 Q: And as of the morning of September 22 the 7th when you left, was that the end of your role as 23 incident commander? 24 A: Technically yes. 25 Q: And then the -- at 10:30 -- what's
1321 being discussed at 10:31? 2 A: Oh, what he's asking for -- now 3 keeping in mind Inspector Gordon is from Mount Forest, he 4 -- he's never worked in the Ipperwash area. Basically 5 what I am providing him is orientation around how you get 6 to and fro various locations. 7 Obviously this is the TOC site and given 8 the events overnight, I was obviously explaining to him 9 the routes that you would need to take to -- to get 10 access to certain spots. Particularly the TOC at that 11 point. 12 Q: And the TOC site there is at the MNR 13 parking lot? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And then 10:35 there's a note that 16 Jim Gordon's briefing you regarding ERT teams and he asks 17 you where you want them to report. And you tell them to 18 report to Grand Bend or London. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And the -- that's with respect to 21 other ERT teams that were coming in to the area? 22 A: Yes. New resources, yes. 23 Q: And then -- can you tell us what you 24 did on the morning on September 7th generally what you 25 did?
1331 A: Well, for the most part, I was in and 2 around the command post area. As I indicated, Inspector 3 Gordon was in charge or the incident commander at that 4 point. 5 And for the most part I just provided him 6 assistance as he needed it to help him with his 7 orientation to -- to this particular incident. So on a 8 number of issues, he -- he was looking for some guidance 9 simply from logistics and from geography perspective. 10 Q: Okay. And there's a note at 11:40: 11 "Tom Bressette calls John Carson." 12 A: What time, sir? 13 Q: Page 106 of Exhibit 426 at 11:40. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Do you have any recollection of that 16 call? 17 A: None whatsoever. 18 Q: And at -- at the top of that page, 19 11:27: 20 "Brad Seltzer advises John Carson of 21 how negotiation contacts are going." 22 Do you have any recollection of that 23 discussion? 24 A: No. Other than I know Seltzer and I 25 had discussed and he had had some or thought he had had
1341 some success of making some inroads into some contacts 2 within the Military Base the day previous. 3 And I can only suspect that this 4 discussion was probably a followup to that as to any 5 potentials that exist as a result of his work the day 6 previous. 7 Q: Okay. And do you have any specific 8 recollection of... 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: And there's a telephone call noted at 11 11:30 and it's in the transcript at Tab 79. It's call 12 number 78 and it's shown on the transcript as having 13 taken place at 11:24 on the morning of September the 7th. 14 Who was Sergeant Brown? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Perhaps I'll play the call and it 19 might refresh your memory. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 22 23 CARSON and Brown 24 25 September 7, 1995
1351 TIME: 11:24:18 hours 2 Track 1.wav 3 MALE: Command Post. 4 BROWN: Can I speak to Gordon please? 5 MALE: May I advise him who's calling please? 6 BROWN: Sergeant BROWN. 7 MALE: Just a moment please. 8 (In background) Ah I want to talk to Martin (u/i) 9 yeah yeah okay. 10 CARSON: Martin. 11 BROWN: Yes. 12 CARSON: John CARSON. 13 BROWN: Good thanks for getting to me here. 14 CARSON: Well we've been trying to the lines have 15 been tied up like crazy here. 16 BROWN: I know. 17 CARSON: Ah. 18 BROWN: I'm sure it's a problem. 19 CARSON: Well it's a major ah ah Inspector GORDON 20 here wants to talk to you as soon as he's 21 off the other line here. Ah what can we 22 do to help you. 23 BROWN: Okay um firstly let me just run through 24 the history stuff the past can we identify 25 the deceased yet.
1361 CARSON: Ah I don't know because CID and SIU ah are 2 not here to let us know how that part of 3 it's going. 4 BROWN: Ah if the next of kin have been notified 5 we can release it can't we? 6 CARSON: Well I believe so but I don't know you 7 know what the status is with them okay 8 like I like I don't know if 9 BROWN: See I'll tell you the urgency on that the 10 Indians are saying a fifteen (15) year 11 olds been killed and the media calling up 12 wanting to know what the age of the boy 13 is. 14 CARSON: Right. 15 BROWN: The bugger was born in fifty-seven (57). 16 CARSON: Right. 17 BROWN: I'd love to be able to say that. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 BROWN: But ah anyway see if you can put a 20 priority on that cause we could sure use 21 the ah positive stroke on it. 22 CARSON: Okay yeah yeah yeah. 23 BROWN: And updating the conditions and ages of 24 all of them. 25 CARSON: Okay conditions and ages okay.
1371 BROWN: I sent this down in an in a press release 2 thing to 3 CARSON: ah 4 BROWN: on a blank 5 CARSON: ah 6 BROWN: to Inspector GORDON. 7 CARSON: Ah ah. 8 BROWN: He got it. 9 CARSON: It's sitting here I I brought it out here 10 it's just I tell you it's pandemonium it's 11 just one (1) of a million things here and 12 I I appreciate you're your problem okay. 13 BROWN: Yeah. 14 CARSON: Believe me we do. 15 BROWN: Um do we know if we have anyone in 16 custody? 17 CARSON: I I don't know that. 18 BROWN: Ah evacuations do we know how many? 19 CARSON: Ah there there have been evacuations but 20 numbers we don't have. 21 BROWN: How many officers do we have involved in 22 this process up till now. 23 CARSON: You mean in in the issue last night or or 24 total in all. 25 BROWN: Total right now.
1381 CARSON: Oh I don't know I guess ah we're probably 2 in the neighbourhood of a hundred (100) 3 and twenty 20). 4 BROWN: Approximately a hundred (100) and twenty 5 (20) I can use that number can I? 6 CARSON: Use a hund use a hundred (100). 7 BROWN: Approximately one hundred (100) officers. 8 CARSON: Yeah yeah we've got more calls we went 9 (u/i) stand some of them down there just 10 there just gone tired you know. 11 BROWN: One thing that ah Marilyn MURRAY liked and 12 that is well I shouldn't make it sound 13 like that we have an officer who was 14 injured. 15 CARSON: Yeah. 16 BROWN: I understand there might have been more 17 than one we should say that. 18 CARSON: Okay okay. 19 BROWN: I'm can you tell me anything about that? 20 CARSON: Ah no I I I just don't have that info you 21 know I just don't know. 22 BROWN: Okay current situation now I understand 23 the media is telling me that we've got a 24 hundred (100) to two hundred (200) ah 25 natives from Kettle Point on a march.
1391 CARSON: They went in they went in. 2 BROWN: Into the Ipperwash Army Camp. 3 CARSON: Into the Army Camp and it's our 4 understanding they're they are now 5 leaving. 6 BROWN: And they're now leaving. 7 CARSON: That's our that's my understanding. 8 BROWN: Okay so ah we weren't stopping them or 9 anything. 10 CARSON: No we let them go through. 11 BROWN: Good ah so current situation is um the 12 areas cordoned off ah we haven't open 13 communications yet. 14 CARSON: Ah no we're working on that. 15 BROWN: No um no spokesperson for them? 16 CARSON: No ah Chief Tom BRESSETTE has has been 17 there and ah we are ah communicating with 18 him regularly. 19 BROWN: So you're attempting to open lines of 20 communication through Chief Chief Tom 21 BRESSETTE? 22 CARSON: Yep. 23 BROWN: That's good I can at least say that. 24 CARSON: Yep. 25 BROWN: Okay um now news is almost upon us to ah
1401 anything we can get at all would be great 2 for us. 3 CARSON: Okay I'll I'll ah martin I'll do 4 everything I possibly can. 5 BROWN: Good. 6 CARSON: Okay. 7 BROWN: Appreciate that. 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 brown: And ah will do whatever at this end um 10 will have to ah who will we get things 11 approved through yourself. 12 CARSON: Ah myself or Jim and Jim wants to talk to 13 you and he's right here okay. 14 BROWN: Good. 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 BROWN: Thanks. 17 CARSON: (To background) Ah Jimmy pick up the first 18 line line at the top there. 19 You got it. 20 21 End of Conversation. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And Martin, I take it, was a media 25 person, Martin Brown?
1411 A: Yes. Yeah, Martin Brown is a 2 sergeant from Mount Forest who would have been brought in 3 to assist the media relation officers. 4 Q: And speaking about the media, there 5 was a press release issued on September 7th, and if you 6 could look in that red folder in front of you, re: Road 7 Closure Highway 21, Ipperwash Park Incident? 8 A: Yes? 9 Q: And do -- is that a press release 10 released by the Ontario Provincial Police? 11 A: Yes, it is. 12 Q: Pardon? And it's Inquiry Document 13 Number 1009048. And I note that on the -- there's a fax 14 time on the bottom of the document at September 7th, 1995 15 at 6:09 a.m. Do you know when the press release was 16 issued? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: But it was some time during the night 19 or early morning of September 7th? 20 A: It would make sense early morning of 21 the 7th. 22 Q: Perhaps we could mark that as the 23 next exhibit? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-441, Your Honour. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 441.
1421 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-441: Document 1009048 News Release 2 from OPP September 07/95 re: 3 Road Closure - Highway No. 21 4 Ipperwash Park Incident 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And that talks about the rerouting of 8 the roads at Northville around to Ravensville and Highway 9 21? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Then there's a press release from the 12 town of Bosanquet that's the next document in that 13 booklet. Did you see this document in September of 1995? 14 A: I don't believe I have ever seen this 15 one. 16 Q: Then a decision was made with respect 17 to the MNR parking lot, and the TOC that was located in 18 the MNR parking lot? 19 A: Oh, yes. Yes. 20 Q: And the -- there's a reference at 21 page 107, 11:59: 22 "John Carson and Inspector Gordon talk 23 about moving the perimeter out." 24 What's that reference to? 25 A: Obviously, we were discussing the
1431 checkpoints, and where the appropriateness of the 2 locations of the perimeter actually would be. 3 Q: And then at 11:59 there's a note: 4 "John Carson [excuse me] Brian Deevy 5 discussing -- discusses moving of the 6 TOC centre with John Carson and 7 Inspector Gordon. Brian Deevy talk 8 about bringing TOC back here. 9 John Carson: Move the TOC out now." 10 And who's Brian Deevy? 11 A: Oh, Brian Deevy is the Staff 12 Sergeant, the TRU team leader from Barrie. 13 Q: And there's a note: 14 "John Carson: Move the TOC out now." 15 And can you tell us what this discussion 16 was about? 17 A: Yes. There was -- that area that we 18 were concerned about the security of the TOC site, and I 19 was recommending that it be dismantled and moved back to 20 the Forest detachment. 21 Q: And "TOC", again here, is T-O-C? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: It's -- it's in -- typed as TALK, T- 24 A-L-K, but it's referring to -- it is T-O-C? 25 A: That's right.
1441 Q: Yes. 2 A: So the discussion was to -- to move 3 it back, and it was my recommendation that we -- we do it 4 now. 5 Q: At 11:59? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then you gave instructions to do 8 that? 9 A: It was my recommendation to Gordon. 10 I don't believe -- he was acting as the incident 11 commander, and it was a discussion; that was my 12 contribution to the discussion. 13 Q: And there is a reference on page 106, 14 Jim Gordon updates John Carson on intelligence 15 information. Do you have any recollection today what 16 that refers to? 17 A: I have no idea, sir. 18 Q: And do you have any other notes for 19 this period of time, Deputy Carson? 20 A: I'll check. My notepad here is the 21 only one that I would have used, but I don't believe so. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: No, I don't see anything that relates
1451 to this time frame. 2 Q: Thank you. Perhaps, Commissioner, 3 this would be a good time for lunch break? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 5 Thank you. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 7 adjourned until 1:15. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 12:02 p.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 1:19 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed, please be seated. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: Deputy Carson, we were discussing 19 before lunch the issue of moving the TOC, which appears 20 at -- in the scribe notes -- at page 107, Exhibit P-426 21 at 11:59 hours. And why did you think it was -- why did 22 you want to move the TOC from the MNR parking lot back to 23 Forest? 24 A: There was information coming back 25 from that location, as I understand it, to the effect
1461 that there was a number of people approaching that area 2 from the First Nations community and there was some 3 concern about the -- the safety factor relative to 4 leaving the -- the vehicles and the personnel down there 5 in the short term. 6 Q: And so a decision was made to 7 instruct the officers to close down the TOC? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And to leave? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And was it the intention to remove 12 all of the equipment as well? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And did events overtake the removal 15 of the equipment? 16 A: It did. 17 Q: And what happened? 18 A: While the officers were preparing to 19 pack up, a crowd of people arrived at that site and 20 basically confronted them. And -- and there was, for 21 lack of a better term, I guess I would characterize it as 22 an angry group and we thought it best that we pack up 23 what we could and remove what we could and we left a 24 number of vehicles behind as the officers pulled out. 25 Q: And whose decision was it to leave
1471 and leave the vehicles behind? 2 A: Quite frankly, I couldn't be sure. 3 Jim Gordon was the Incident Commander, but I certainly 4 had some input. I certainly agreed with it and we just 5 suggested it was the thing to do. 6 Q: And at 10 -- page 108, there's an 7 entry at 15:45 at -- excuse me -- 12:45 p.m. 8 "John Carson and Jim Gordon updated by 9 TRU regarding the TOC situation." 10 And again, that's T-O-C, and what was 11 that? 12 A: Yes, that's basically an update of 13 the events as I've just explained to you. That's in 14 regards -- it indicates here that the outcome was to get 15 the people out without any altercations. Some of the 16 equipment that was left behind was two (2) St. John's 17 vans, a marked OPP van, a fifth wheel, a St. John's 18 vehicle... 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: All of our personnel were removed and 21 there appeared to be about a hundred (100) people there, 22 some throwing objects such as wood and calling our 23 officers murderers. 24 Q: Okay. And everyone -- there were no 25 injuries sustained by either side when the TOC was
1481 removed? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And after that, the -- there's a 4 number of entries relating to you, but at page 111, 5 Exhibit 426, there's an entry at 13:12. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: "Ron French, Indian Affairs escorted 8 to command trailer." 9 Did you have any discussions with Mr. 10 French? 11 A: To tell you the truth I can't even 12 recall him being there. 13 Q: Okay. And there's a note just below 14 it, 13:16 hours: 15 "Jim Gordon leaves with Ron French, 16 Indian Affairs to talk." 17 And that note -- what do you take from 18 that note? 19 A: That Gordon and French must have left 20 the trailer to go have a discussion some place. 21 Q: And at 13:11 there's a note: 22 "John Gordon asks John Carson to advise 23 London to set up some more check 24 stops." 25 And what's that refer to?
1491 A: I'm not sure what the expectation is 2 there. But obviously it appears some indication we 3 needed additional checkpoints somewhere. 4 Q: And at 13:28 on page 111, there's a 5 reference to Peter Harming -- Harding from St. John's 6 Ambulance coming and speaking with you? 7 A: Yes. Mr. Harding attended the 8 command post and was inquiring about the status of his 9 people and equipment. 10 Q: And you explained to him that had to 11 be left behind? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: Then at 13:33 you received a call 14 from Mark Wright? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends, 17 it's Tab 82 in the volume and it's Telephone Call Number 18 81 on the Carson Master Complete Final List. And it's 19 noted as on the transcript as being at 13:26:29 hours on 20 September 7, 1995. 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 23 24 CARSON and WRIGHT 25
1501 September 7, 1995 2 TIME: 13:26:20 hours 3 Track 1.wav 4 5 ARCHIBALD: Command Post ARCHIBALD. 6 WRIGHT: Hi Bunk it's Mark. 7 ARCHIBALD: Yes Mark. 8 WRIGHT: Is um Johnny C still whipping about or is 9 he ten (10) seven (7) asleep now? 10 ARCHIBALD: Ah I'm just trying to I can see him from 11 here he's well he is asleep ah no he's 12 there. 13 WRIGHT: Let me speak at him. 14 ARCHIBALD: Okay hang on. 15 CARSON: Mark. 16 WRIGHT: Hi John. 17 CARSON: How's it going? 18 WRIGHT: Not bad. If we get this injunction it's 19 going to be here it is but you can't use 20 it. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 WRIGHT: And his rationale is is well the ah 23 property ownership of the property is 24 quite obvious to me that it belongs to 25 MNR. We have multiple criminal offences
1511 so why do you need this just go in and get 2 them. 3 CARSON: Well it's true. 4 WRIGHT: Yeah. 5 CARSON: It's true it's a crime scene. 6 WRIGHT: Pardon. 7 CARSON: It's true it's a crime scene. 8 WRIGHT: Yeah so ah so I'm wondering they're up 9 there ah debating for (u/i) fuckin hours 10 so the but I'm wondering if he's going to 11 do that do we want an injunction that says 12 but don't act on it or are we just better 13 to say look forget it. 14 CARSON: Well ah I guess the only thing is if he if 15 he says if he gives us something that says 16 don't act on that and then if something 17 changes we can go back and and have the 18 issue revisited. I mean if it's already 19 been debated and the same judge listens to 20 it we can you know re reassert our 21 position or or whatever. 22 WRIGHT: Yeah and but um 23 CARSON: Wh wh 24 WRIGHT: I gave him oh fuck I gave the evidence of 25 my life in there.
1521 CARSON: Yeah. 2 WRIGHT: Like literally I was up there at least an 3 hour and a half maybe two (2) hours and I 4 covered everything. I can't possibly see 5 what could happen that would you know what 6 I mean 7 CARSON: Yep 8 WRIGHT: like he says ah like you've got multiple 9 crime scenes and multiple criminal 10 offences the property owner is you know 11 very easy to establish ah ah anything else 12 would be a matter of civil court you you 13 and what he said was that you know they 14 they want to use the um the Attorney 15 General's office wants ah to use me as a 16 foil to go in there you know. 17 CARSON: Well. 18 WRIGHT: he's right. 19 CARSON: Well but that but when this was all 20 started we didn't have the criminal 21 offences. 22 WRIGHT: That's right that's right so and he was 23 ticked at me because he said ah how come 24 you didn't try and ah ah notify them there 25 was court this morning. I said well sir I
1531 wasn't told till almost eight ish (8) ish 2 and by that time things were hopping I 3 told I gave him you know the details. 4 CARSON: You were notified of what. 5 WRIGHT: That I was to make notification to them 6 like they'd fax it to me. 7 CARSON: Uh huh. 8 WRIGHT: To give them a copy. 9 CARSON: Give ah. 10 WRIGHT: And I said at that particular time and I 11 explained to them I wasn't in ah you know 12 personal safety was at stake there was no 13 way you know I was going to go there and 14 there hand them something it would of 15 never it would of never happened. 16 CARSON: Yep. 17 WRIGHT: So um. 18 CARSON: Did he ah I mean appreciation of that. 19 WRIGHT: Well ah ah I got a message to call 20 PARKIN'S I got up to leave and he stopped 21 me and I thought out oh and he said well 22 just before you leave officer he says I 23 just want you to realize that you know ah 24 what I I you know I had some pretty ah 25 spirited comments to you and I don't went
1541 you to take that as criticism at at all 2 and hind sight is twenty (20) twenty (20) 3 cause he said well did nobody ever 4 actually when the when the Man Crowd 5 Management Unit went in there did anybody 6 actually say to them well if you go inside 7 the fence we won't come after yah. 8 CARSON: Oh. 9 WRIGHT: I said sir with all due respect it was 10 quite evident the inference was there we 11 took the picnic tables they run in in th 12 morning. We never went after them. We 13 got we got there we moved them back they 14 took over the fence we turned around and 15 we started to move back. They jumped over 16 the fence we moved in we made an arrest we 17 started to move back. At no point did we 18 ever go in I said we never have gone in 19 and we still haven't gone in. Very 20 obvious that we never went in. I said I 21 stood at that fence my picture's in the 22 paper doing that. We never went over that 23 fence line. 24 CARSON: Right. 25 WRIGHT: So the inference I think was very clear
1551 there and I explained about you know the 2 roaring of the vehicles and the plates and 3 all you know warrants for people that we 4 could see on the other side of the fence. 5 CARSON: Yep. 6 WRIGHT: That didn't go. 7 CARSON: Right. 8 WRIGHT: You know we respected that boundary line 9 and they you know I think it was very 10 obvious. Oh but you know he says you know 11 in hind sight and in the spirit of the 12 moment decisions are made I'm thinking man 13 you have no idea how much time we you know 14 I didn't go into that. 15 CARSON: Oh yeah we've poured over this thing. 16 WRIGHT: That's right so and of course the press is 17 right there. 18 CARSON: Yes. 19 WRIGHT: In the room so I don't know what that's 20 going what he's going to say in there. 21 CARSON: Right. 22 WRIGHT: Because it could look it could look not 23 real he made it sound like it was kind of 24 the spur of the moment thing we were going 25 to do that.
1561 CARSON: Oh yeah. 2 WRIGHT: You know I think it was a quasi criticism 3 of us. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 WRIGHT: So but so what. 6 CARSON: Yep. 7 WRIGHT: You know what I mean. 8 CARSON: Yep nothing we can do about. 9 WRIGHT: Nothing we can that's right so I'm still 10 like after he gave me the big you know 11 speech I don't want to go back in there 12 again because (u/i) he's given me this ah 13 you know the nod. 14 CARSON: Yeah. 15 WRIGHT: So but I'll wait for ah Les cause I'm not 16 going to bail out on Les. 17 CARSON: Yep. 18 WRIGHT: (U/I). 19 CARSON: Yes so I guess it's kind of lude point 20 whether we got it now or not. 21 WRIGHT: Yeah I think so to like I don't know what 22 GOODALL thinks about you know just sittin 23 here pondering about you know that bus 24 that's in there and that was there was 25 shots fired in there then there would be
1571 casings in there and 2 CARSON: Yeah. 3 WRIGHT: I mean that's that's ah that bus itself is 4 a crime scene. 5 CARSON: Yep. 6 WRIGHT: But ah. 7 CARSON: We've lost the whole area Mark. 8 WRIGHT: Well that's just what I was going to say 9 but ah we're along way from the park 10 aren't we. 11 CARSON: Well we our talk site was overrun. 12 WRIGHT: Oh fuck. 13 CARSON: We lost the St. John's equipment. 14 WRIGHT: No way. 15 CARSON: Yeah. 16 WRIGHT: What do you mean did they take it or we 17 just can't get it. 18 CARSON: We ordered the talk site torn down. 19 WRIGHT: Yeah. 20 CARSON: TRU Team ah disassembled their talk the 21 ATV's are lost the ah the ah ah one (1) of 22 our training vans is lost and and the ah 23 St. John's Ambulance equipment is lost we 24 don't even know if it's even if it's 25 anything less than burn than the rest of
1581 the equipment. Err like you know like 2 they did last night. 3 WRIGHT: So so the Indians have got it. 4 CARSON: Yep we we have basically had to back out 5 of our checkpoints or we were going to be 6 swarmed at checkpoint. 7 WRIGHT: With with by who. 8 CARSON: Natives by the whole community the 9 WRIGHT: (u/i) 10 CARSON: the talk site yeah the talk site was 11 swarmed by a hundred (100) people. 12 WRIGHT: Oh my God. 13 CARSON: Right now all all we are able to do ah 14 we've got ah seven (7) eight (8) mine (9) 15 and ten (10) district ERT's en route. 16 Belleville TRU is here. 17 WRIGHT: Yeah. 18 CARSON: And ah ah we're simply detouring traffic 19 off of twenty-one (21) Highway for the 20 short-term. 21 WRIGHT: We're still waiting for ah reinforcements 22 and 23 CARSON: Yeah. 24 WRIGHT: We're going to sit down how's COLE'S 25 taking this or can he talk.
1591 CARSON: Ah well I I very good he came in and ah he 2 he's been very supportive and I explained 3 what happened and ah he's ah ah you know 4 doing the best we can. That's certainly 5 ah you know I think he's you know 6 supported you know what we did is what we 7 had to do. I mean 8 WRIGHT: Yeah. 9 CARSON: I mean if we if we would of went in with 10 the Crowd Management Unit like like the 11 next thing is the people's cottages there. 12 WRIGHT: That's right. 13 CARSON: Like where the hell do you stop? 14 WRIGHT: That's right yeah. 15 CARSON: You know ah. 16 WRIGHT: Has anybody gone to go directly to see if 17 we can get that equipment back er is it 18 way too early? 19 CARSON: It's not even possible it's impossible. 20 WRIGHT: They've take it eh. 21 CARSON: Yep I just had the St. John's Ambulance 22 guy in here just a few minutes ago. 23 WRIGHT: We'll have to (u/i) no doubt eh. 24 CARSON: Well oh yeah yeah that'll be you know 25 handled through whatever.
1601 WRIGHT: How how are you making out? 2 CARSON: Okay okay. 3 WRIGHT: Okay well I I we're done the injunction 4 but we don't set on it right. 5 CARSON: That's then that's fine like don't push 6 the issue don't like I mean CID gets a 7 major crimes scene there that we have no 8 bloody control over whether we have that 9 court order now is a moot point really in 10 my mind. 11 WRIGHT: Well but hang on a sec does he say we 12 can't act on it. 13 CARSON: Hey. 14 WRIGHT: We have a temporary interim injunction 15 that we can't act on and we've prepared to 16 come back in x number of days to get 17 another one but I don't think we need it 18 do we now? 19 CARSON: Well I don't think so I mean it's a crime 20 scene all we we've got a search warrant 21 and that's all there is to it. 22 WRIGHT: Yeah. 23 CARSON: So I I you know I think we have other a 24 ave avenues. 25 WRIGHT: Yeah.
1611 CARSON: Yeah. 2 WRIGHT: Okay well we're done now. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 WRIGHT: So I'm going to go home and get out of my 5 unit. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 WRIGHT: And I'll be on my way up there in (u/i). 8 CARSON: Okey dokey brother. 9 WRIGHT: Okay. 10 CARSON: Thank you. 11 WRIGHT: Okay hang in there. 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 WRIGHT: Okay. 14 CARSON: Right. 15 WRIGHT: Bye. 16 17 End of Conversation. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And Inspector -- I mean, Deputy 21 Carson, at page 494 there's an entry, the third from the 22 bottom, "Yes, so I guess it's kind of" and it says in the 23 transcript "lewd point." I believe the transcript the -- 24 on the audio it said mute point? 25 A: I would agree.
1621 Q: "Whether we get it now or not." Did 2 you ever see the injunction? 3 A: I'm not sure. I -- I appeared two 4 (2) days later for a variance to the injunction in London 5 but -- I can't say I -- I can't say for sure that I saw 6 it. 7 Q: And the -- when you said that the -- 8 to Mr. -- to Sergeant Wright. 9 "Well, I don't think so. I mean, it's 10 a crime scene. All we've got -- a 11 search warrants and that's all there is 12 to it. Yeah. 13 Carson: So I know I think we have 14 other avenues." 15 And what were you referring to there? 16 A: Well, now this whole area is a crime 17 scene. The -- the area where the shooting's taking 18 place, the sandy parking lot, the vehicles involved, are 19 all a crime scene. 20 So we have sufficient information to apply 21 for the appropriate search warrants which all which allow 22 us control of the property involved in order to do the 23 criminal investigation. 24 So the whole issue of an injunction to -- 25 to deal with the Park itself basically can be put on the
1631 back burner until this is resolved, because this is 2 certainly more significant now than just the issue over 3 title of the property. 4 Q: And when you say the -- the crime 5 scene, you're not referring to the whole Park as a crime 6 scene? 7 A: No. No. Talking particularly around 8 the -- the shooting incident. 9 Q: In the sandy parking lot. 10 A: Yes. But some -- some of that 11 depending on what the investigators find out may encroach 12 on the -- on the Provincial Park. We just simply -- it's 13 too early to really judge at that point. 14 Q: So from your perspective, the issue 15 of getting an injunction with respect to the Park had 16 fallen in priority? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And I'm going to show you a copy of 23 the injunction. It's Inquiry Document 100891 and ask you 24 to take a look at it. Excuse me, it's 1000891. 25 A: Thank you.
1641 Q: And then, as well, another Document 2 10003 -- 1003489. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Thank you. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Go to page 2. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And the second document, the first 15 Document 1000891 is the injunction dated September 7th, 16 1985 -- 1995, of the Honourable Mr. Justice Robert 17 Daudlin, D-A-U-D-L-I-N. 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And have you -- at the time, did you 20 see this document, sir? 21 A: It seems to me I saw it on the -- on 22 the Friday when I gave evidence at -- in London. 23 Q: So -- and, perhaps we could mark the 24 injunction dated September 7th, 1995 as the next exhibit, 25 it would be P...
1651 THE REGISTRAR: 442. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 442. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-442: Document No. 100891 5 Honourable Justice Daulin's 6 injunction September 07/'95 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And had you seen -- have you seen a 10 copy of the injunction 1003489, which is the injunction 11 dated September 8th, 1995 -- the order dated September 12 8th, 1995, of the Honourable Mr. Justice Richard Flinn, 13 F-L-I-N-N? 14 A: Yes, I believe I was provided a copy, 15 after the fact. 16 Q: And, could we mark the next exhibit, 17 it would be Exhibit P-443. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-443, Your Honour. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Very good. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-443: Document No. 1003489 22 Honourable Justice Flinn's 23 Order September 08/'95 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
1661 Q: And I note that Exhibit P-442, the 2 order of Mr. Justice Daudlin directed in paragraph 5 that 3 the order remain in effect until noon on September 11, 4 1995; that's at page 4 of the injunction? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that the -- in paragraph 6 it 7 provided for argument on Monday, September 11th, 1995 8 with respect to the continuation of the argument for an 9 interlocutory injunction? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And then in paragraph 7 stayed the 12 enforcement of the injunction until noon on September 11, 13 1995? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And then in paragraph 8 there is a -- 16 there's a provision with respect to service and on the 17 copy that's been marked P-442, there is some handwritten 18 changes. And I believe that you'll find -- those changes 19 were as a result of the order that's been now marked P- 20 443? 21 A: I believe so, yes. 22 Q: And that's with respect to service 23 including the service by dropping copies of the order out 24 of an aircraft? 25 A: Correct.
1671 Q: And was that something the OPP had 2 asked for? That service be affected by dropping the 3 material from an aircraft? 4 A: Not that I'm aware of. In fact I 5 argued strenuously against it at the -- at the Hearing on 6 the Friday. 7 Q: On the Friday when you gave evidence? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And why was that, sir? 10 A: Well, two (2) issues. I -- I wasn't 11 sure of, first of all, how large a package we're talking 12 about. And then there's the whole issue of dropping 13 items potentially on people. 14 The second part -- I certainly suspected 15 it would be more than a leaflet, but the other part was 16 the safety of aircraft that was flying over. 17 And if you flew over with a helicopter 18 which would be the -- the natural way you would drop 19 something like this, given the fact that we'd been 20 involved in a shooting already, it really made -- put 21 officers in potential jeopardy by having them fly over 22 the Park at this point in time. 23 Q: And so the requirement to use that as 24 a method of service was made discretionary as a result of 25 the order of September 8th?
1681 A: That's right. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, perhaps 3 what we could now before I move on, I've finished with 4 the two (2) volumes of transcripts, and I would ask that 5 we mark the two (2) volumes as an exhibit -- the next 6 exhibit, but only those portions of the two (2) volumes 7 that have been referred in evidence. 8 So that what we will have to do is simply 9 remove -- there are a number of transcripts involving a 10 number of other people that have not been played and with 11 this witness, and should not be made part of the public 12 exhibit at this time as part of the exhibit with respect 13 to Deputy Carson. 14 So what we'll do is if we reserve a number 15 for both these volumes and then we will remove the 16 transcripts of those calls that were not played. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Haven't yet 18 been referred to. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What exhibit 21 number are we reserving? 22 THE REGISTRAR: That number will be P- 23 444. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-444 -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And --
1691 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And 445? 2 Will we put them in as two (2) exhibits or will they be 3 one? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It'll be -- perhaps we 5 could put in Volume 1 as P-444A and Volume 2 is P-444B. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Good. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P444A: Transcript of Audio logger 9 selected tracks September 5 10 to 7/'95 Volume 1 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-444B: Transcript of Audio logger 13 selected tracks September 5 14 to 7/'95 Volume 2 15 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we've already 17 assigned a number -- P-428 with respect to the telephone 18 calls and in order -- those calls are now on three (3) 19 separate CD's so will have to be brought together on one. 20 The ones that have been played. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 23 Q: Then there's a note at page 113 of 24 Exhibit 426 at 14:21 that you were to go get some sleep, 25 but it appears that you remained in the command trailer
1701 for some period of time? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And what did you -- when did you 4 leave the command trailer on September the 7th; do you 5 recall? 6 A: It was late in the afternoon, I 7 suspect. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: Probably 5:00-ish I would think. 10 Q: And on September 8th, you've told us 11 you went to London to appear in Court. Did you do 12 anything else with respect to this incident on September 13 8th? 14 A: No, I -- I stayed in London that day. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: No, I don't believe I went back to 17 the London area. 18 Q: The Forest area? 19 A: I'm sorry, correct. 20 Q: And the -- on September the 7th in 21 the afternoon, the -- there are some discussions at page 22 115 and 116 with -- between you and Doug Smith from the - 23 - from the Military? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what do you recall of those
1711 discussions and the reasons for them? 2 A: Doug Smith was at the command post 3 and there was some discussion about, again, the access to 4 military armoured vehicles. And Doug Smith was asking if 5 the Solicitor General had contacted the Military and 6 basically I indicated to him, by the looks of it, that I 7 was just inquiring as to the time lines, if they should 8 be needed. 9 Q: And anything else? 10 A: I got into further discussion with 11 him in regards to resources. He was updated by Jim 12 Gordon on the vehicles that were lost and I asked Captain 13 Smith what kind of bodies, human resources, were 14 available at Camp Borden and Meaford if we needed 15 assistance. Basically, he was just giving me a -- a 16 status of the kinds of troops that are deployed in those 17 kinds of locations. 18 Q: And if I could take you back to page 19 112, there's a note at 13:49 hours on September 7th in 20 Exhibit 426. 21 "John Carson gone to Detachment to 22 speak to Staff Sergeant Lacroix on the 23 telephone." 24 And do you have any recollection today 25 what that was about?
1721 A: Where was that, sir? 2 Q: Page 112, the entry at 13:49. 3 A: I have no idea. 4 Q: Okay. And there's a number of 5 references in these pages of the scribe notes with 6 respect to Mr. Williams, the Chief Administrator, and Mr. 7 Beatty, who is identified at page 112 as with Emergency 8 Measures Ontario, and in relation to evacuation and 9 issues involving the residents. 10 Did you participate on September 7th in 11 any of the issues surrounding the evacuation and the 12 residents? 13 A: In a very superficial fashion, I 14 would suggest. As I indicated, Inspector Gordon was the 15 Incident Commander at this point in time, so most of the 16 -- the issues were being handled by him. 17 Clearly, Mr. Williams and Mr. Beatty from 18 EMO, there was significant concern about the evacuation, 19 emergency measures, issues and all of that piece, so 20 there was a lot of activity going on about the next steps 21 that they were going to take. 22 Q: And when there was -- the planning 23 was being done with respect to Project Maple, was there 24 any consideration given to -- in the worst case, 25 communicating with the residents in the immediate area of
1731 the Park and the Army Camp? 2 A: Well, that's -- that's what we did in 3 the initial throes of it. 4 There were -- there was direction where 5 officers had -- spoke to people in the neighbourhood to 6 keep them apprised what was going on, but we didn't have 7 any formal process in place where we would say, generate 8 a pamphlet and go door-to-door or -- or any of those 9 kinds of things. 10 I mean in a, quite frankly, a worst case 11 scenario, we didn't really anticipate the events as they 12 unfolded. So, quite frankly, we hadn't really had a, how 13 would you put it, an evacuation plan. There wasn't a 14 full evacuation plan in place at all. 15 I mean, there was some discussion, you 16 know, that we maybe -- there may be some needs to move a 17 few people out down from the corner or something like 18 that. I mean that kind of discussion took place. 19 But I would suggest, had there been any 20 anticipation of the kind of events that actually did take 21 place, there would have been a full evacuation plan 22 prepared with all the names, addresses of -- and phone 23 numbers of the residents so that someone could have been 24 tasked and quite quickly go through that. But, quite 25 frankly, we hadn't -- we hadn't really anticipated that
1741 necessity. 2 Q: And you didn't anticipate happening, 3 what happened on the evening of September 6th? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And can you tell us, during the 6 period September the 4th, 1995 to the end of September 7 6th, 1995, did you speak to any cabinet minister of the 8 Government of Ontario? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: Did you -- and by "cabinet minister," 11 did you have any discussions with Mr. Harris? 12 A: None. 13 Q: Or Mr. Runciman? 14 A: None. 15 Q: Or Mr. Harnick? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: Or Mr. Hodgson? 18 A: No, sir. 19 Q: And did you speak to any aides to Mr. 20 Harris -- political aide? 21 A: None. 22 Q: And particularly, did you have any 23 discussions with Ms. Hutton? 24 A: No, I did not. 25 Q: Or any aide to Mr. Runciman?
1751 A: No, I did not. 2 Q: Or Mr. Harnick? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: Or Mr. Hodgson? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And did you receive any instructions 7 from anyone on behalf of the Government of Ontario to 8 take steps during the period September 4th, 5th and 6th 9 and in particularly, the evening of September 6th? 10 A: Absolutely not, sir. In fact, I 11 think if you look at -- the only political people, and 12 when I say, "political," I'm referring to the partisan 13 politics individuals, the only elected official at the 14 provincial level would have been Mr. Beaubien. 15 The -- the facts around his appearance at 16 the command post are well documented. There are a couple 17 of references or a few references in the command post 18 minutes that refer to commentary as relayed to me by 19 Inspector -- then Inspector Fox. 20 I think you'll see in each and every case 21 that those comments were made, it will be made in the 22 context that we are proceeding with a -- an injunction. 23 And I -- I think you will see that in -- 24 in our actions, any of the actions we took, any direction 25 I gave, was in response to the situation we faced
1761 specifically. 2 And I must point out that I left for 3 dinner on the evening of September 6th and had left for 4 the evening with the intent a meeting with Sergeant 5 Wright to discuss the injunction for the next morning. 6 That meeting didn't take place as planned. 7 As -- as the record shows, I was called back into duty or 8 I -- I was contacted by Dale Linton and, as a result of 9 that, I returned and put myself back on duty. 10 And it was the events that we were faced 11 with that resulted in the decision which I certainly have 12 no hesitation in taking responsibility, for ordering the 13 crowd management unit to be formed. 14 In fact you will see in the command post 15 minutes the records show that I went forward with the 16 crowd management team, personally. 17 And it was then, after I had left the 18 command post, and only then, that Inspector Linton had 19 updated Superintendent Parkin of the activities that had 20 taken place and the actions related to it that we were 21 about to put into -- into use. 22 So quite frankly, Mr. Millar, I have great 23 difficulty with the insinuation that I took any political 24 direction from anyone. 25 Q: And we've heard the telephone calls
1771 from Inspector Fox and -- that you had with Inspector 2 Fox. And you've talked about the meetings and the 3 comments with Mr. Beaubien. 4 And we've heard your evidence with respect 5 to some of the discussions with Mayor Thomas and Mr. 6 Williams and your evidence with respect to the advice 7 that you received on the evening of September 6th about 8 the cottagers being upset from Mr. -- Sergeant Wright. 9 And as a result of those issues and 10 concerns raised by -- to you by Fox as a result of his 11 attendance at inter-ministerial meetings and Mr. Beaubien 12 and the cottagers and Mr. Thomas, did you feel under 13 pressure to do something on the evening of September 6th? 14 A: Absolutely not. Inspector Fox called 15 me with information that I required in regards to the 16 injunction. In fact, I was certainly questioned at some 17 length in another process in regards to the discussion 18 with Ron Fox. 19 At that time I was not privileged to the 20 recordings that are available today. I had not -- I 21 wasn't aware they even existed. And at that time I was 22 obliged to clearly deny any understanding or knowledge of 23 the part of the conversation around the political 24 comments, because, in fact, I had no memory of that. 25 I would suggest that the -- the critical
1781 issues of the moment was the issues of the injunction 2 and, quite frankly, Inspector Fox was venting some 3 frustrations apparently that he may have felt under but, 4 in all fairness, that was issues for him. 5 My issues were with trying to work through 6 this situation we were facing that was facing not only 7 the police but the occupiers, the greater community in 8 the Lambton County and Bosanquet Township in particular, 9 and trying to maintain some balance to this. 10 And that's everything that û- that I did 11 was motivated in balance. 12 Q: And did you receive any instructions 13 from your superiors, Superintendent Parkin or Chief 14 Superintendent Coles or anyone else in authority in the 15 OPP, with respect to taking action on September 6th? 16 A: No, sir, in fact, Chief 17 Superintendent Coles and Superintendent Parkin both were 18 at the command post for a lengthy period of time the 19 afternoon of the 6th as -- as we've discussed in earlier 20 testimony. 21 They left that -- that afternoon with a 22 clear understanding that it was status quo, as far as our 23 activities were concerned, and we were optimistic that an 24 injunction hearing was going to take place the next 25 morning. And as -- as I just alluded, Superintendent
1791 Parkin was not even aware that a crowd management team 2 had been assembled until, in fact, they were already 3 being deployed. 4 I received no calls, and they gave me no 5 direction to take any specific action relative to the 6 events that occurred that evening. 7 Q: And one (1) of the issues pointed out 8 by Chief Superintendent Coles in his telephone 9 conversation with Inspector Fox, that part of it that was 10 recorded in the command trailer -- 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: -- was his concern about the flow of 13 information to the members of the inter-ministerial 14 committee, do you recall that? 15 A: Oh, yes. 16 Q: Did Chief Superintendent Coles tell 17 you at that time, on September 6th, that you should have 18 tighter control over the information flow? 19 A: No, we didn't have that discussion, 20 but I got the sense -- it was clear from Chief Coles that 21 Inspector Fox would be calling either Parkin or himself 22 from there on. I know he certainly had some anxiety 23 around the number of phone calls I was getting and -- and 24 -- and as -- as we've heard, the way the information was 25 going up, you know, basically through multiple avenues,
1801 but in particular, through the Ministry of Natural 2 Resources; that was creating all these questions and 3 turmoil that ended up with Ron Fox trying to provide some 4 clarity. 5 So obviously, or clearly, that created 6 some angst for Chief Coles, and he had -- he put a stop 7 to that, which, from my point of view, was -- was a -- 8 was a very positive thing, quite frankly, because I 9 simply didn't have the time to deal with it. 10 Q: And Les Kobayashi, as a 11 representative of the landlord, the Ministry of the 12 Natural Resources, attended at the mobile command post 13 and sat in on your briefing meetings, or some of them; is 14 that correct? 15 A: Correct. Oh, yes. 16 Q: And from time to time, other members 17 of the Ministry of Natural Resources, Mr. Matheson, 18 attended at the command post? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And frankly, that was part of the 21 plan that the representative of the landlord would attend 22 at the command post? 23 A: Yes, correct. And in -- in all 24 fairness to Mr. Kobayashi, I have a great respect for -- 25 for him. I've known him for a number of years, and I
1811 certainly trust him explicitly. And what I didn't 2 appreciate is that, you know, I probably could have had 3 him there, in his role, and worked that communication 4 slightly different. 5 The one (1) thing I didn't really have an 6 appreciation on, I was probably very naive, in some 7 respects, that as the information moved up the -- the 8 chain on the Ministry of Natural Resources side, given 9 probably both of our naive points of view at that 10 particular in time, we had no appreciation of the context 11 that could be put to certain information. And that was 12 probably the -- the -- the problem that, you know, 13 presented itself. 14 Q: The information went up the chain 15 from Mr. Kobayashi, to his superiors, and then came back 16 down through Inspector Fox? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And from a planning point of view, 19 was it a good idea to permit Mr. Kobayashi, or other 20 representatives of the Ministry, as landlord, to attend 21 at the command post and the briefings? 22 A: If I had to do it over again, I would 23 do it slightly different. I would have him there, but 24 not in the fulsome, broader meetings. 25 I would have brought him into the meetings
1821 where it was necessary to discuss issues that he needed 2 to participate in, and share with him the information 3 that was essential for his ministry, but I -- I would -- 4 I would have precluded him from some broader discussions. 5 Q: Okay. Now, if I could turn, for the 6 moment, to the issue of a negotiator or a facilitator, 7 you've told us that there was -- at the beginning you 8 were considering using Vince George to start discussions, 9 as a possibility? 10 A: Right. We were trying to get him to 11 -- to introduce us to someone who would speak to us. 12 Q: And Mark Wright and Marg Eve attended 13 at the Park? 14 A: Correct 15 Q: And you were using Sergeant Seltzer 16 and Lorne Smith to try to get some discussions going? 17 A: They were working on the community 18 within Kettle Point. 19 Q: And the purpose of all this was to 20 start a dialogue with the occupiers? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And I take it that you could not, as 23 a representative of the OPP, negotiate a solution to the 24 land claim? 25 A: It would be inappropriate for me to -
1831 - for me to designate somebody to enter into those kinds 2 of discussions. 3 Q: And so the purpose of your seeking 4 discussions with the occupiers was to do what? 5 A: It was to maintain dialogue so that 6 everyone could work through this issue peacefully so that 7 everyone knew what the other side was doing, and we would 8 let the processes follow their course. 9 Q: And when you were having difficulty 10 on September 5th and 6th establishing communications with 11 the occupiers, did you consider other alternatives? 12 For example, Captain Doug Smith, who 13 appeared to be communicating with the occupiers? 14 A: In fact he was not considered. The 15 issue there was Smith represented the Military who are 16 the -- the object of the land claim issue with the 17 Military Base. 18 And I thought it would be dangerous to be 19 aligning our discussions with someone that the occupiers 20 already had an issue with. 21 Q: Because he was a representative of 22 the Federal Government? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You were aware, I believe, that Mr. 25 Bruce Elijah and Mr. Bob Antone had attended at the Army
1841 Camp during the summer? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I can't recall if I asked you 4 this, but were you aware that they had conducted a 5 cultural awareness program for the Military at the Army 6 Camp in July of 1995? 7 A: I believe I was aware of that. 8 Q: And were you aware that Captain Smith 9 had used them in communicating with the occupiers? 10 A: I'm not sure I was aware of -- of how 11 he would have done that. 12 Q: But did you consider using the 13 services of Mr. Antone or Mr. Elijah to try to get 14 communications going? 15 A: No, that had not been considered. 16 Q: And why not? 17 A: Quite frankly I don't -- I don't have 18 an answer for that. 19 Q: Did it come to mind to use either of 20 these two (2) gentlemen? 21 A: Quite frankly, it did not. 22 Q: Now, we've heard evidence from the 23 occupiers that they were concerned that during the late 24 afternoon and evening of September 6, 1995, that there 25 was a police buildup, and a belief that the OPP would
1851 enter the Park; were you aware of that? 2 A: On the evening of the 6th? 3 Q: Yes. The afternoon and evening of 4 the 6th. 5 A: There was -- there was no additional 6 officers there. 7 Q: My question is, as the result of 8 these Proceedings, we've heard in this -- in these 9 Proceedings that there was a concern, by the occupiers, 10 that there was a buildup by the police, and that they 11 were concerned that the police were going to do 12 something. 13 A: I understand that, yes. 14 Q: And in fact, they then took steps, 15 the evidence we've heard, to show more activity in the 16 Camp and -- and in the Park, because of their concern 17 about the police. 18 Did you understand that -- hear about that 19 part of the evidence? 20 A: I -- I am aware of that through the 21 transcripts, yes. 22 Q: And is it fair to say that the OPP 23 were concerned that the occupiers would leave the Park 24 and move into the cottages west of the Park? 25 A: Very much so, yes.
1861 Q: And that, as a result, there would be 2 problems with the cottages, you were concerned about 3 that? 4 A: Oh, yes. 5 Q: And would you agree with me that the 6 beliefs and reactions, or the beliefs of both sides, then 7 coloured their actions, and particularly on the part of 8 the OPP? 9 A: I would suggest there were 10 perceptions on both sides, and that the perceptions were 11 probably slightly distorted from the reality. 12 Q: And that those perceptions fed into 13 the problem and the tragedy that occurred on September 14 the 6th? 15 A: It would certainly contribute. 16 Q: And the communications that you spoke 17 about would have dispelled some of the misconceptions on 18 both sides? 19 A: Absolutely. 20 Q: And that was one (1) of the reasons 21 you wanted communications? 22 A: That's why I was working feverishly 23 towards that. 24 Q: Now, you distributed or had 25 distributed ASP batons on the afternoon of September the
1871 6th; is that correct? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And I believe the number was fifty- 4 seven (57) ASP batons were brought in? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And they were -- the officers were 7 trained that afternoon to use the ASP baton? 8 A: I would -- I would disagree with your 9 terminology. They -- they were trained in the use of 10 them from the perspective of how you maintain the baton. 11 The use of the baton -- all officers from 12 recruit level, are trained on the use of a baton when 13 they arrive at the Ontario Police College. So the baton 14 they had in their possession, at that time, was a twenty- 15 six (26) inch wooden baton. 16 The use of the ASP baton is the same as 17 the twenty-six (26) inch wooden baton. It's a matter of 18 management of it because it's a collapsible weapon as 19 opposed to a twenty-six (26) inch rigid baton. 20 Q: And it's -- it's supposed to be made 21 -- is the normal batons made of wood? 22 A: Correct. That's right. 23 Q: This is made of -- the ASP baton was 24 made of steel? 25 A: Yes.
1881 Q: And had a steel tip at the top? 2 A: It's all steel, yes. 3 Q: And did you consider that the 4 introduction of a new piece of equipment might heighten 5 the anxiety of your officers? 6 A: Actually, I -- I would take the 7 exception that that would be the case. The ASP baton, 8 quite frankly, when collapsed, is about a seven (7) inch 9 handle. The whole baton collapses into the handle, and 10 it fits into a very slim holster on the duty belt. 11 In fact, most people, if a police officer 12 walked by them would be hard-pressed to tell if the ASP 13 baton is actually a small flashlight, or what it is, as 14 opposed to a twenty-six (26) inch wooden baton that hangs 15 three-quarters of the way down their leg. 16 If, at all, the twenty-six (26) wooden 17 baton is a far more intimidating piece of kit that the 18 ASP baton ever could be. 19 Q: And perhaps we could just, for the 20 benefit... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: On the screen is a photograph of an 25 ASP baton in its closed position?
1891 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: And that is -- the ASP baton is 3 approximately -- how long did you say? 4 A: About 7 inches. 5 Q: 7 inches. And then on the screen is 6 a photograph of the ASP baton extended. And as I 7 understand it in 1995 they were a -- it was a 26 inch ASP 8 baton? 9 A: Yes, there's two (2) versions. A 10 twenty-six (26) and a twenty-one (21) I believe. 11 Q: And -- 12 A: But the -- the general officers on 13 the road would get a 27 inch. 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: The officers on the road would get 16 this particular 27 inch version. But there's also a 21 17 inch version. 18 Q: Is it 27 inches or twenty-six (26)? 19 A: I'm sorry, you're right. The 26 inch 20 version is the standard issue but there's also a 21 inch 21 version. There's a six (6) inch difference or a four (4) 22 or five (5) inch difference. 23 Q: And the version that was used on the 24 evening of September 6th, or was issued on the afternoon 25 of September 6th, was the 26 inch version?
1901 A: Right. 2 Q: Perhaps we could mark these two (2) 3 photographs as the next exhibit? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-445, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO: P-445: Two Photographs of OPP ASP 7 Baton, No. 1 - Baton in 8 closed position (7") No. 2 - 9 Baton in extended position 10 (26") 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 445. 13 THE WITNESS: See one (1) of the 14 advantages of the ASP baton is -- is, first of all, it 15 can be carried easily by the officer at all times when on 16 duty. The -- the wooden 26 inch piece of hickory is -- 17 is much more difficult. 18 But the other part of that is you can 19 remove the ASP baton from its holster and have it in your 20 hand, you could be in a potentially volatile situation 21 and not extend it but you still have it at the ready 22 without actually having to extend it. 23 And it's only once the situation changes 24 that actually the weapon is extended and then action is 25 taken.
1911 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The second 4 of the two (2) photos, is Exhibit 446? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You hadn't - 7 - you hadn't said that before. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's one (1) exhibit. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One (1) 10 exhibit. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Collective. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 13 fine, that's fine. 14 THE REGISTRAR: 445 is the exhibit. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's 445? 16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 19 Q: Now in your evidence the -- we talked 20 about intelligence and the use of intelligence. And 21 intelligence was part of Operation Maple, at least in 22 terms of identifying people. 23 And I believe that you said that you would 24 not make, back in 1995, an operational decision based on 25 intelligence.
1921 A: If I could just interrupt for one (1) 2 moment? If I could just take you back to the issue of 3 negotiations and you raised the Bruce Elijah and Bob 4 Antone issue. 5 And then I -- I just neglected to mention 6 that during this period of time, we had always kept 7 communication open with the Chief and Council at Kettle 8 Point. And as you know, there were examples like the 9 letter to the editor by Mr. George denouncing the 10 activities at the Ipperwash Base. 11 And Ovide Mercredi had attended the area 12 in early August, I believe it was, and there was 13 discussion and issues, when he was there, with the Band 14 Council. And as I understand it, there was some 15 discussion about how the community would participate, 16 potentially, and issues that were going on at that point. 17 So, I -- I guess I just want to point out 18 that -- that I was aware that a number of people had been 19 making attempts to work with the occupiers to resolve 20 some of these issues, particularly after the -- the bus 21 incident on the Military Base at the Drill Hall, and it 22 was to no avail. 23 And -- and I guess I -- I just want to 24 make sure you appreciate the frustration that -- that in 25 -- in my view, a number of people had tried to establish
1931 communications. And you know, Mr. Mercredi is renowned 2 across this country as, I believe, a man of tremendous 3 influence in the -- in the native community. And a 4 person of his stature had no ability to change the course 5 of this event. 6 And so, I guess -- I just -- not that I'm 7 trying to deflect any responsibility here, but quite 8 frankly, we were -- we were more or less at our wit's end 9 at where we get any ability to establish communications. 10 Q: But you were aware that -- of the 11 dynamics of the situation, the differences between the 12 band -- the Chief and Band Council at Kettle Point, and 13 the occupiers at the Army Camp? 14 A: Oh, very much so, sir, yes. 15 Q: And the concerns of, I take -- of 16 really of both groups of the inaction of the Federal 17 Government? 18 A: Very much so. 19 Q: And that there needed to be some 20 method to try to bridge the gap, or perhaps that's not 21 the right word, to establish a communication with the 22 people directly involved at the Army Camp? 23 A: Yes, and -- and quite frankly, in 24 hindsight, if I had the opportunity of hindsight, the 25 person I would have called is the one we listened to this
1941 -- this morning on the tapes, Bonni Bressette. She's -- 2 I had no idea that she had the ability to move in and out 3 and potentially assist us in some communication. 4 Had I known, I could have simply called 5 Bonni, and she could have slid in there, and -- and had a 6 discussion with somebody, and talked some sense to 7 someone. 8 I mean, I would -- I would have seized the 9 opportunity. 10 Q: But you didn't realize that at the 11 time? 12 A: And -- and that's my point is, I 13 mean, a lot of this is, at the very best, a hit-and-miss. 14 You did not see people putting up their 15 hand and say, Pick me, I'll come and help you here. We 16 were at our -- at our own devices to try to establish 17 inroads, and not everybody wants to be the communicator 18 with the police when it's unpopular with the decisions 19 within their own community. 20 Q: Okay. And if I -- if -- is there 21 anything else you wanted to say? 22 A: No, I'm sorry, I -- I'm off -- 23 Q: No, no, no, that's fine. I want to 24 make sure that you had the opportunity to say what -- 25 that -- what you would like to say, and if there's
1951 anything else, as I've said before, please... 2 A: No, I thank you for the opportunity. 3 Q: Now, if I could turn to the question 4 of intelligence, and I believe that -- and what we're 5 talking about is back in 1995 now, that your view -- when 6 we look at Project Maple, Project Maple provided, under 7 the intelligence section for identification of people in 8 the Park and in the -- in the Camp, is that fair? 9 A: That was their primary role, yes. 10 Q: And that, I believe you said that you 11 wouldn't, back then, make an operational decision based 12 on intelligence? 13 A: No. Intelligence is something that I 14 may use to confirm, deny, or support other suppositions 15 or facts. 16 Q: And that back in 1995 you were more 17 concerned about simply asking people directly about 18 issues? 19 A: Yes. And I think the situation's a 20 little different than most from the point of view that we 21 certainly had the ability to know who the participants 22 were, for the most part. 23 And we had a number of officers who could 24 provide us some of the background information on -- on 25 some of the individuals because the officers had worked
1961 there their whole career, and some of them had grown up 2 here themselves. 3 Q: And would you agree that in the 4 period September 4th to September 6th and afterwards, but 5 particularly in the period September 4th to 6th, there 6 were many rumours circulating in the community on both 7 sides? 8 A: That's fair. 9 Q: And the police heard rumours that 10 concerned them? 11 A: Oh, yes. 12 Q: And back in 1995 had you had any 13 specific training with respect to intelligence? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And back from -- so that with respect 16 to the intelligence aspects of the project, you relied on 17 Messrs Richardson and Bell, or Mr. Bell? 18 A: Yeah. Detective Sergeant Bell was 19 the supervisor of the London Intelligence Unit. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: So -- so he was the primary contact. 22 Q: And it's my understanding that the 23 components of intelligence can be broken into a number of 24 components; planning and direction, the collection of 25 information, the collation of that information, the
1971 evaluation of the that information, the analysis of that 2 information, the reporting and dissemination of that 3 information, and the re-evaluation of that information. 4 Is that a fair -- would you agree with 5 that as -- that is a fair statement of the steps involved 6 in intelligence collection and the use of intelligence? 7 A: Sure. Yes, absolutely. 8 Q: And would you agree with me that in 9 the period September 4th to 6th and perhaps before, that 10 there was very little collation of information or 11 evaluation of the information? 12 A: I'm not sure I would agree totally 13 with that. 14 Q: And it was simply put in a log, the 15 information collected? 16 A: Well, there's -- that information log 17 that we -- we've talked about here and indicates the 18 various activities that are going on from the uniform 19 point of view. But I would suggest that any information 20 that Detective Sergeant Bell had, also fed into the 21 command post when there was new information brought 22 forward. 23 Q: Do you know, if during the period 24 September 4th to 6th, whether an analyst had been 25 provided to Mr. Bell -- Sergeant Bell to use?
1981 A: I don't believe so. I'm not aware of 2 one anyway. 3 Q: And isn't analysis a major part of 4 the use of intelligence? 5 A: Well, the difficulty here is you're 6 getting into a whole different area of intelligence. And 7 I -- you're -- basically we're talking about apples and 8 oranges here. 9 Q: And why is that, sir? 10 A: Because what you're talking about is 11 where you suspect -- to use an example, if we're going to 12 use organized crime, for example, it's a popular one, you 13 have suspicions that individuals are involved in 14 activities. 15 And so the intelligence people try to 16 determine, from a whole host of sources, how different 17 people may be connected together to run a criminal 18 enterprise. What they're trying to do is identify the 19 who, the what, and the how. Quite frankly, those 20 questions were all answered in Ipperwash. You -- we -- 21 the biggest difficulty we had was knowing who was in 22 there. 23 We knew why they were there. We knew what 24 they were doing, for the most part. And it was a matter 25 of identifying the appropriate -- identifying the
1991 occupiers for the injunction. 2 So from the who, we were able to identify 3 those, you know, with -- for example, some of the 4 outsiders, some of the behaviours they brought with them. 5 So I would suggest, at the end of the day, 6 the product isn't much different. It's just that getting 7 to the finish line is different in this case because of 8 the amount of information we knew at the outset, as 9 opposed to a group of unknown people; you're trying to 10 establish that level of familiarity. 11 Q: But would you not agree with me that 12 there were reports that went up the line and came back 13 through Fox, and reports of automatic gunfire? 14 A: Yes, there was. 15 Q: And no one knew whether that was 16 automatic gunfire or not? 17 A: And quite frankly, I'm hard pressed 18 to -- to understand why anyone would be any more 19 concerned about an automatic weapon than they are about a 20 semi-automatic weapon because, quite frankly, in the 21 hands of the inappropriate person they're both simply 22 dangerous. 23 Q: The information that you receive 24 about the car being beaten with the bats, private 25 citizen's car, was information that was very important to
2001 your decision to deploy the Crowd Management Unit? 2 A: It was certainly a factor. Yes. 3 Q: And the information you received was 4 -- was simply incorrect? 5 A: Some of it, yes. I mean, I -- the 6 fact of the matter is there was a private vehicle. The 7 private vehicle was struck. I mean, we -- we know there 8 had been damage. 9 Q: A private vehicle was struck, we know 10 now by a stone and, in fact, Gerald George had told, I 11 believe, Constable Poole that back on the evening of 12 September 6th, but the correct information was not 13 transmitted to Mr. Linton -- Inspector Linton until 10:44 14 and was never transmitted to you? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: But you would agree with me that 17 someone throwing a stone at a car is substantially 18 different than a report that a private citizen's car was 19 beaten with baseball bats? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And it would have been important to 22 you to know that the citizen's whose car was -- whose 23 sister's car, actually, had been hit by a stone was a 24 person who had been very critical of the occupiers, as 25 we've seen from his letter to the editor?
2011 A: You take that one (1) piece in 2 isolation it doesn't provide the context. That -- that 3 is true and if moments later had Mark Wright come around 4 that corner, as he did, and there was no one to be found 5 on the sandy parking lot, it was simply the activities in 6 the Provincial Park. Quite frankly, the issue with the 7 car would have been a non-issue. 8 But instead, he was confronted, 9 encountered people who were about to do a similar 10 activity to his vehicle and they were out on the parking 11 lot and they were out there with bats or bat-like 12 weaponry. And information subsequent to that was that 13 they were driving vehicles in an erratic manner in the 14 parking lot. So, I mean, it isn't the one (1) thing. 15 I mean, that was the thing that -- that 16 was the catalyst that brought the activities to our 17 attention. But if the activities in that parking lot had 18 totally ceased, they'd gone back into the Provincial Park 19 and stayed there, quite frankly we wouldn't be here 20 today. 21 Q: But the information that Sergeant 22 Wright relayed to you, was that the -- when he stopped 23 his car, the occupiers said that, Our fight is not with 24 you; isn't that correct, Deputy Carson? 25 A: I believe that's what he said, yes.
2021 Q: And that he did not say that his car 2 -- that he was threatened with his car being damaged by 3 baseball bats? 4 A: No. There was no direct threat. 5 Q: And in fact, he didn't report a 6 threat at all? 7 A: Not in -- not in the sense of 8 requesting some report be made of it, no, but he 9 certainly made us aware of -- of what he observed when he 10 went around that corner. 11 Q: He observed that there were people in 12 the sandy parking lot that had, what he observed were 13 some with bats or clubs? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: Now you've heard, I take it, that 16 there is a tape of conversation between two (2) officers 17 on September 5th or 6th that contain racist comments? 18 A: Yes, I'm aware of that. 19 Q: And the two (2) officers involved in 20 that were Messrs Whitehead and Dyke? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And the Messrs Whitehead and Dyke 23 were collecting information? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And were reporting to Sergeant Bell?
2031 A: Correct. 2 Q: And when did you learn of these 3 racist comments? 4 A: About the same time as the -- as 5 everyone else, I guess, within the last -- it was within 6 the last couple of years that that came out. 7 Q: And what, if anything, did the 8 Ontario Provincial Police do with respect to the officers 9 involved in those comments? 10 A: The comments made are simply 11 unacceptable and won't -- 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Hold on, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 Mr. Commissioner, I -- I kind of take a 15 page from Mr. Sandler's brief of yesterday when he rose 16 and indicated that playing a certain tape would give 17 context to an answer. 18 Now we're in a position where this deputy 19 is called upon to talk about what is acceptable and 20 presumably unacceptable about a tape we're not hearing. 21 So with all due respect, it seems to me that part of this 22 process ought to include the context of the tape if these 23 answers are to have any meaning. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 25 Millar...?
2041 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'll get the tape. 2 Perhaps it would be an appropriate time for the afternoon 3 break. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume 5 that we were going to hear the tape at some point? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 8 to break now? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, it would be an 10 appropriate time, I have to just get it. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 13 for fifteen (15) minutes. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 2:42 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 2:59 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed. Please be seated. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, we've 21 got a bit of change of plan. The -- and I've -- what 22 we're going to do is, we had a request that weapons, 23 similar to the weapons that were in use on the evening of 24 September 6th, be brought and they're here along with 25 some uniforms.
2051 And the weapons that are here -- we have 2 photographs of the actual weapons, the weapons that are 3 here are weapons that are in use. The Ontario Provincial 4 Police does not have spare copies of these weapons 5 around. 6 So what I propose to do is ask Deputy 7 Carson to identify and I -- one (1) of the officers from 8 the Tactics and Rescue Unit is here who's responsible for 9 these weapons, to bring the weapon over and it'll be 10 shown. And we have the photograph of the weapons as 11 well. 12 And I'm going to, for the benefit of My 13 Friends, refer to Inquiry Document 1004456, and I've 14 provided a copy to Deputy Carson which is an inventory of 15 the weapons that were seized as part of the SIU 16 investigation. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And as I understand it, Deputy 20 Carson, Constable Kenneth Deane on the evening of 21 September the 6th, had a HKMP5 - 9 millimetre rifle; is 22 that correct? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And can you describe for us what an 25 HKMP5 - 9 millimetre weapon is?
2061 A: Well, basically, it's a short rifle 2 that's used in, well, TRU teams, military. It's a fairly 3 -- it operates in semi-automatic or single fire fashion, 4 has a magazine with a -- so it can fire rounds 5 repeatedly. 6 And it's a 9 -- 9 millimetre is the 7 calibre and basically, it's simply, to the average 8 person, it's just a short version of a rifle that's semi- 9 automatic. 10 Q: And perhaps we could ask the officer 11 to bring an example of the weapon to the Deputy 12 Commissioner. And what we have there is the HPMP5 - 9 13 millimetre weapon. It's a -- it's the same weapon that 14 was used by Kenneth Deane? 15 A: Yes. And as you notice it's equipped 16 with a light on the lower part and the barrel is directly 17 above the -- the light -- light source. 18 Q: And on the screen there is a copy of 19 Exhibit P-24 and photograph 15-21A. And that is a 20 photograph of the weapon that was used on the evening of 21 September the 6th by Kenneth Deane. And it appears to 22 have a scope on -- something above the barrel that's not 23 on the example we have here today. 24 A: That's possible. It may be night 25 vision -- a night vision scope.
2071 Q: And on the screen we now have another 2 photograph of that same weapon, it's 15-22A from Exhibit 3 -- the -- apparently My Friend, Mr. Falconer points out 4 that on the list 1004456 it says: 5 "Laser sight removed and returned to 6 TRU team." 7 So that the weapon that was used by Acting 8 Sergeant Deane on the evening of September 6th had a 9 laser sight. 10 A: Apparently, yes. 11 Q: And then the next weapon was 12 Constable Mark Beauchesne, and he was, as well, a member 13 of the London TRU team? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And he had an HK 33E3 .223 calibre 16 weapon? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And perhaps the Constable could bring 19 that over? Perhaps we'll make this one (1) page 20 inventory an exhibit -- the next exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-446, Your Honour. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-446. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-446: Document No. 1004456 25 Inventory of weapons seized
2081 as part of SIU investigation 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And -- 5 A: And again, it's a -- it's a rifle, 6 .223 is the calibre. It has a magazine that holds up -- 7 I'm not sure how many rounds, twenty (20) rounds? 8 CONSTABLE CLARE SHANTZ: I never use 9 this, I don't know. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. It has -- it has a 11 fairly significant magazine on it, anyway. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And the weapon on the... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: We've just lost the computer, 19 Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, no. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It didn't like all 22 these pictures. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did we give 24 this document a number, Mr. Registrar? 25
2091 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: That is P-446, Your 4 Honour. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-446. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: It appears that we don't have a 9 photograph marked as part of Exhibit P-24 of this weapon, 10 which we will have to obtain and -- and deal with at the 11 appropriate time, but that is the weapon that conforms to 12 the description of the weapon for Constable Mark 13 Beauchesne? 14 A: Correct. 15 CONSTABLE CLARE SHANTZ: I think the one 16 on the screen was this weapon, I just don't know if... 17 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Then the next weapon was the weapon 21 used by Constable Klym, K-L-Y-M, of the London TRU team 22 and it's an HKMP5SD. And can you tell us -- perhaps, the 23 officer could bring that weapon over? 24 A: Basically, it's the same weapon as 25 the first one you saw, except equipped with a silencer.
2101 Q: The -- perhaps -- 2 A: Apparently, we don't have a silencer 3 here today to demonstrate what it looks like, but it's 4 the same -- same weapon with a silencer attached. 5 CONSTABLE CLARE SHANTZ: It's basically a 6 tube that, this pops off and a tube screws on the end 7 just to silence and muffle the noise of the -- of the gun 8 being fired. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I'll show the 10 picture that we've been provided by, and which was marked 11 as part of Mr. Thompson's evidence and perhaps someone 12 can explain the difference. The weapon that was provided 13 in the photograph, that was provided with respect to... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: Constable Beauchesne (sic) is the 19 weapon on the screen described as an HK33E .23 calibre 20 and that appears to be a different weapon than the weapon 21 that -- 22 A: The difference is the collapsible 23 stock. 24 Q: So that the only difference is the 25 weapon that is here today has a stock that can be
2111 removed? 2 A: Well, this -- this one on the screen 3 has a collapsible stock, the other one has a fixed stock 4 that you saw here. 5 Q: And the fixed stock is as we've seen 6 in the example that we have here today, the collapsible 7 stock, on the right-hand side of Exhibit 24, photograph 8 16-7, would pull out; is that correct? 9 A: Yes. Yes. 10 Q: And we apparently do not have with us 11 today a copy of the MP-5 with the silencer, which we will 12 have to get, but it is the same as the weapon of Sergeant 13 Deane which is Exhibit 24, 16-1, but with a silencer on 14 it? 15 A: That's correct. That's my 16 understanding. 17 Q: And then the next weapon was the 18 weapon used by Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix, a Smith & 19 Wesson .38 special calibre pistol? 20 A: Yes, that's a -- that's the standard 21 issue police revolver that we issued up until, actually, 22 right around 1995. We were just in the middle of 23 transition from a .38 calibre Smith & Wesson to a -- as 24 the next weapon you're going to see, is a P229, Sig 25 Sauer, semi-automatic pistol.
2121 The Smith & Wesson revolver holds six (6) 2 rounds. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And when fired does not eject the 5 casing; it holds the casing until they are -- until the 6 cylinder is opened and the action removes any spent or 7 live cartridges in the cylinder. 8 Q: So that the -- there's a photograph 9 on it -- a picture of it, it's the same weapon on the 10 screen as 16-12? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And that's the photograph 16-12 from 13 Exhibit 24, the Stan Thompson photographs. And it has a 14 -- as you've said -- a chamber that in order to eject the 15 shells has to be opened to eject the shells? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And then the next officers, Sergeant 18 Hebblethwaite, Constable Kevin York, and Constable Brian 19 Sharp had Sig Sauer, S-I-G, new word, S-A-U-E-R, model 20 P229 .40 calibre pistols; is that correct? 21 A: That's correct. They're .40 calibre 22 pistols, semi-automatic. They have magazines that go 23 into the -- the unit that holds twelve (12) rounds. As 24 each round is fired it automatically ejects the round, 25 and -- and loads the next round into the -- into the
2131 barrel. 2 Q: And -- 3 A: That's the standard issue pistol for 4 all of our police officers -- for all, well, all of our 5 patrol officers, across the force. 6 Q: And the photograph that's on the 7 screen which is photograph 16-16 from Exhibit 24 is a 8 photograph of the weapon that we have here today? 9 A: Yes, and the -- one (1) of the main 10 differences here -- 11 Q: The same type of weapon, not the 12 exact weapon? 13 A: Right. Right, that's -- that's the 14 standard issue weapon and that weapon when fired ejects 15 the empty casing out, and automatically loads the next 16 round into the chamber. 17 Q: Okay. And then I believe that 18 there's an ASP baton that we have in exhibit -- 19 photograph of it is Exhibit -- 20 THE REGISTRAR: 445. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: -- 445? And the ASP Baton as it's in 24 your hand is extended? 25 A: That's correct.
2141 Q: And that is 26 inches long? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And how does it retract? 4 A: You simply turn it upside down on any 5 hard surface and -- and it goes up. 6 Q: And it retracts to the size that's in 7 your hand? 8 A: Correct. And that was the point I 9 was trying to make earlier. That can be carried on any 10 officer's belt at any time and it doesn't look much 11 different than a flashlight. 12 But when you have the full length of a -- 13 of a hickory 26 inch wooden baton, it hangs down the full 14 length past their knee of their leg. So when this -- 15 when this is collapsed and in their holster, it is really 16 an insignificant piece of kit on their belt to the 17 average person walking by. 18 And the important part is, they always 19 have it available to them if it's on their belt. 20 Q: Perhaps we could have that back and 21 could you just open it up again. It opens by being a 22 flick of the wrist? 23 A: Just centrifugal force applied -- a 24 flip in the wrist. 25 Q: And at the end of it there appears to
2151 be a -- a steel round ball? 2 A: There's a round knob on the end. 3 Q: And that is -- perhaps you could 4 simply describe that for the record. 5 A: It just appears to be a metal knob on 6 the end of it. I'm not sure -- I mean it's slightly 7 larger than the tube -- tube itself. 8 Q: And we can see that on the photograph 9 Exhibit 445. Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 11 Is this the one that's standard issue now? 12 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now it is. 14 It wasn't then but it is now? 15 THE WITNESS: Well -- well, it was -- 16 what happened was then, it was standard issue from the 17 point that not that finances ever come into play, but we 18 were replacing them as new officers came in and they were 19 being replaced over time as opposed to buying five 20 thousand (5000) of them, and issuing them in one day. 21 So there was a transition in progress when 22 this took place. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Then what I have on the screen is a
2161 photograph that I'm instructed is a photograph of a CMU 2 unit, not the one in question but a -- an example of what 3 the officers in a crowd management look like when they 4 are fully dressed? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And that is how the officers would 7 appear back in 1995 -- would have appeared? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And perhaps we could make and I'll 10 have to get a copy of it -- a copy of this photograph as 11 the next exhibit. It simply depicts what the crowd 12 management unit would look like -- look like back in 13 1995, Commissioner. So that would be -- 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-447. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 447. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-447: Photograph of CMU (Crown 18 Management Unit) fully 19 uniformed in 1995 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 22 Q: And it appears, Deputy Carson, that 23 these particular officers are carrying the regular 24 batons? 25 A: I can see a couple of them there.
2171 But some of them may have either/or. I mean, it could be 2 either way. 3 Q: So that a CMU could be -- the 4 officers in a CMU could be equipped with either a -- back 5 in 1995, a wooden baton or an ASP baton? 6 A: Oh, for sure. 7 Q: Sure. And perhaps we could bring up 8 the pieces that -- that make up the dress of the crowd 9 management unit, firstly as ERT officers. And then we 10 can simply show the pieces that are added when they are 11 formed up into a crowd management unit. 12 And so Constable Evans has a -- in his 13 right hand a vest -- 14 A: That's a vest carrier for soft body 15 armour. As you not it has "Police" in large letters on 16 it and it's a -- something that is -- so it's highly 17 identifiable, so the police letters are large. 18 Q: And that is the type of the equipment 19 that was used by the ERT teams back at Ipperwash -- the 20 incident at Ipperwash Provincial Park back in 1995? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yes. And the next piece of 23 equipment. 24 A: And that's -- that's the -- the heavy 25 shirt they wear. Again with the "Police" in large
2181 letters across the back for identification purposes. 2 Q: And is it normally the vest worn over 3 the shirt when -- 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: -- they're deployed -- when they were 6 deployed back in 1995? 7 A: Yes, well the vest -- the vest -- 8 soft body armour is mandatory wear for our officers. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And what you see there is the -- the 11 pants. It's a -- just a matching grey, heavy-duty 12 garment. 13 Q: And then when the officers are -- 14 perhaps before Constable Evans leaves, the soft barb -- 15 body armour, what is it made of, sir? 16 A: What's it made of? 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: Kevlar. 19 Q: Kevlar? 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: And so that it's -- it's my 22 understanding Kevlar is to be -- is intended to be 23 bulletproof or impede the -- how would you describe 24 Kevlar? 25 A: Well, we always call it soft body
2191 armour but it only -- it has a protection level -- I 2 mean, there are various protections levels of body 3 armour. So what you have to be cautious of -- you can 4 put different levels of protection in the carrier. So 5 anyway, long story short, while if you used a .38 calibre 6 revolver that we saw, that was demonstrated here a minute 7 ago, you could probably say it would be bulletproof. 8 If you used a .223 rifle that we 9 demonstrated, that might be some questionable. 10 So it depends on the -- on the velocity 11 and the calibre of weapon that we're speaking of when you 12 talk about this kind of equipment being bulletproof and 13 use those terms. 14 Q: Sure, that's just a lay person who 15 doesn't know, so -- 16 A: Yeah, yeah -- 17 Q: -- I want you to describe it as you 18 would -- as you've done. 19 A: Right. I wouldn't go to the bank and 20 -- with an insurance policy suggesting that it's 21 bulletproof. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. Now if -- 23 perhaps, Commissioner, what we might do is take some 24 photographs of these pieces of clothes that -- that -- of 25 the uniform that are being demonstrated here and we could
2201 reserve the next number, I think it's 448 for all of 2 these pieces of the equipment. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-448: Photographs of uniforms, 5 shield helmet with face 6 shield, shoulder leg and arm 7 guards, protective gloves, 8 worn in 1995 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And then back in 1995, when the crowd 12 management ERT teams were formed up into the crowd 13 management team, they used a shield such as the shield 14 being held by Constable Evans now? 15 A: Correct, it's a clear -- clear shield 16 where they put their arm through the loop and hold on to 17 the handle so it's in their forearm. 18 Q: And that's the loops on the backside 19 of the shield? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And on the front side of the shield? 22 A: There's a large label emblazoned 23 "Police". 24 Q: And can you tell us what the 25 dimensions of that shield are?
2211 A: My guess is about eighteen (18) 2 inches by approximately thirty-six (36), roughly. 3 Q: Thirty-six (36) inches high and 4 eighteen (18) inches wide? 5 A: Approximate. 6 Q: And then the next piece of equipment 7 that Constable Evans has is a helmet? 8 A: It's a helmet and shield. 9 Q: And that's an example of a helmet 10 that was in use and shield back in 1995? 11 A: Correct, and it has the -- the back 12 portion is built to provide neck protection so articles 13 or nothing can run down the officers into their -- the 14 neck of their shirt. 15 Q: And this helmet... 16 A: No. 17 Q: And I -- Mr. Sandler indicates that 18 in 1995, the badge numbers that appear on this particular 19 helmet were not there. 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And that's something that's been 22 added since 1995? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And the number on this particular 25 helmet, 8032, identifies the badge number of that
2221 officer? 2 A: Some officer. 3 Q: Some -- and the helmet, as equipped 4 in 1995, did it have the communications built into it, or 5 did the officers carry a separate radio? 6 A: I believe they had the ear pieces in 7 it, and it connected to their portable radio. 8 Q: And then in addition to the helmet 9 and the shield, there was other pieces of equipment that 10 the officers used with respect to the crowd management 11 unit? 12 A: Correct. There was -- there was the 13 other safety protective gear. 14 Q: And perhaps Constable Evans could 15 bring those pieces up? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Basically, what you're looking at 20 here is mitts, gloves -- 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: Protective gloves. You have various 23 shoulder pads, arm -- 24 Q: That's -- there's a shoulder pad, a 25 leg --
2231 A: Right, and arm. 2 Q: -- and an arm guard? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And we can see on the -- the one that 5 Constable Evans in his hand now, is that the arm guard? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And it's a little smaller than the 8 leg guard? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And are there any other pieces of 11 equipment that the crowd management, back in 1995, would 12 have worn? 13 A: I believe that pretty well rounds out 14 their kit. 15 Q: And the officers that were in the 16 crowd management unit would have been carrying the 17 standard issue weapon that we've seen? 18 A: They -- they -- I believe the only 19 person on the team down there, actually, was probably 20 myself and Lacroix had .38 calibre Smith and Wesson; all 21 the other ERT officers and road officers, I believe, 22 pretty much all had .40 calibre Sig Sauers. 23 Q: Right. And then there is -- 24 Constable Evans has an example of a wooden baton? 25 A: Yes. That's -- that's the wooden
2241 baton there, the 26 inch. 2 Q: And, perhaps, we'll get a photograph 3 of it as well, Commissioner, and if we could reserve P- 4 449 for that? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-449. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-449: Photograph of wooden baton 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And then Constable Evans is -- has, 11 as well, I believe, a cannister of pepper spray? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Yes. That's the -- the version that 16 is carried on an officer's duty belt. 17 Q: And that was the version -- the small 18 version carried on -- back in 1995? 19 A: Correct. All -- all officers are 20 issued that. 21 Q: And that's about four (4) inches 22 high? 23 A: Approximately, yes. 24 Q: And then, in Constable Evans' right 25 hand now, is a larger cannister?
2251 A: It's just a -- a larger supply 2 version, yes. 3 Q: And who is -- back in 1995, who was 4 issued this size of container? 5 A: Normally it would be either like the 6 likes of TRU team or an ERT team would have that. The 7 average officer wouldn't have access to it. 8 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could mark 9 these two (2) containers as the next exhibit, and we'll 10 get some pictures, it's P-450. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-450, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-450: Photographs of large and 14 small containers of pepper 15 spray 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And there is another uniform, perhaps 19 Constable Evans could bring it forward? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And this appears to be a green unif - 24 - how would -- please describe this for us? 25 A: It's -- it's an olive drab green
2261 uniform. Basically, it's the same wear that you saw in 2 the grey shirt and pants, it's just this particular one 3 has -- I believe it had a TRU team insignia on it; that's 4 about the only difference. 5 So they have green or grey, depending on 6 the environment, that's available for their use. 7 Q: And do you know which uniforms were 8 used, back in 1995, by the TRU team? 9 A: To tell you the truth, I -- I believe 10 they were in greys, but -- I know the TRU team leader 11 was, but I can't say, with all certainty, that some of 12 them might not have been deployed in greens as well. 13 Q: And so in Constable Evans' left hand 14 there's a shirt and underneath the shirt, in the left 15 hand, is a pair of pants, I take it? 16 A: Yeah. No. Yes, basically, it's the 17 same. 18 Q: It's the same as the grey uniform 19 that we've seen -- 20 A: It's just a green version. 21 Q: It's a green version? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: But there appears to be a difference 24 in the vest. 25 A: Yes. The -- the vest is a --a TRU
2271 team vest which has a number of other options to it for 2 carrying additional equipment. And it's also equipped to 3 take or to insert various plates to change the armour -- 4 the protection, various levels of -- various levels of 5 armour to increase their personal protection. 6 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could take some 7 photographs of this and -- and reserve P-451 for that, 8 Commissioner. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-451, your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-451: Photographs of TRU team 12 uniform 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And I believe that Constable Evans 16 has some hats as well. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: It's a TRU belt. There -- we have a 21 duty belt here that a TRU officer would wear. It's a 22 holster for a 9mm pistol. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And various pouches. 25 Q: And the pouch that's by Constable
2281 Evans' right hand, what -- do you know what that pouch 2 would be for? Flashlight? 3 A: That's the flashlight. 4 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could mark that 5 as part of Exhibit 451, that photograph -- we'll take a 6 photograph and mark it -- that's a TRU team belt. 7 And what's the difference between the TRU 8 team belt and an ERT belt back in 1995; what was the 9 difference? 10 A: Well, basically the only difference 11 is that they carry some different kit for their different 12 roles. 13 So the average ERT officer would just take 14 his normal duty belt they wear on the road and wear it on 15 ERT. It's just another pair of gloves that they're 16 issued. 17 Q: Is that for the TRU team or for the 18 ERT team? 19 A: That's a TRU team. 20 Q: Perhaps we could make that as well, 21 part of Exhibit 451? 22 A: And it's just a hat. Again, it's 23 just a colour green to assist with concealment. 24 Q: And against that's the type of hat 25 worn by the TRU team?
2291 A: Yes. 2 Q: And so it could be either in the 3 olive green or in grey? 4 A: Could be, yes. 5 Q: And perhaps we could mark -- take a 6 photograph of that as well, and mark it as part of P-451. 7 And were there any other pieces of 8 equipment that the officers would have been wearing back 9 in 19 -- September 6th, 1995? 10 A: That's -- that's the standard issue, 11 pretty much as you see it. 12 Q: And do you know if the TRU team had 13 muzzle flash suppressors on their weapons that night? 14 A: I couldn't answer that question. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And Commissioner, the -- we will get 19 a copy -- a photograph of the missing weapon. I thought 20 that, frankly, when Mr. Thompson was here we had them 21 all, but we will get a photograph of that. 22 And we -- the -- perhaps we could even get 23 a photograph of the -- the five (5) -- the weapon that's 24 here today. 25 Perhaps what I would prefer to do is get a
2301 copy of the actual weapon, a photograph of the actual 2 weapon which we must have back in Toronto and we will 3 deal with this. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But the weapons need 6 to go back with the TRU team officer, back to London 7 because they're weapons used by actual members of the TRU 8 team. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, I beg 14 your indulgence. I understand we actually have a TRU 15 team member here; is that correct? 16 I wonder if we could have a demonstration 17 of the sound of -- of shield chatter. Admittedly, it's 18 only one shield but we were informed by the witness that 19 this was intended to intimidate and I think it might 20 assist us in hearing how that sounds. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're in a 22 climate of violent -- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I believe that -- and 24 I understand -- I don't believe that the TRU members -- 25 TRU team members are trained to use the shield chatter,
2311 it's the ERT members; is that not correct? 2 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But in any 4 event, we're inside here. The sound inside Kimball Hall 5 wouldn't be the same as it would be outdoors, it would be 6 distorted and I don't think we're all going to go outside 7 and have a demonstration. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But this officer isn't 9 -- the point I was simply making. I appreciate My 10 Friend, Mr. Orkin's, request, but this officer is not 11 trained -- it's not part of his training as a TRU team 12 officer to be a -- to do shield chatter as an ERT team 13 officer is. 14 So, what I would like to do, Commissioner, 15 is perhaps at the end of the day, we could take some 16 photographs of these various things, not of the -- of -- 17 not of the weapons, but of the other pieces of 18 paraphernalia; the -- the uniforms? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, with your 21 permission, the... 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 23 Falconer? 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I don't know how 25 helpful this will be, Mr. Commissioner, but I was
2321 fortunate enough to have one (1) of the officers 2 demonstrate to me -- and I believe it's the same officer 3 who has been assisting us, demonstrate to me how the 4 baton is applied to the shield, for the shield chatter. 5 The only reason I raise it is, Mr. Orkin 6 thought it might be useful, in terms of your findings of 7 facts, to see how the shield chatter is done, and it was 8 demonstrated for me during the break. I thought the same 9 officer could do the same demonstration so at least we 10 could see how it's done? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Inside? 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He did it 14 inside for you? 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes, right here. I 16 just thought -- it was simply from the point of view of 17 knowing what forty (40) officers all doing that at once-- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well... 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- may well lend 20 itself to some inferences. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well... 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we've -- well, 23 I've -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It may be only 25 worth so much chatter, Mr. Commissioner.
2331 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We've heard from the 2 occupiers, if this officer can demonstrate shield 3 chatter, and has demonstrated at the break to Mr. 4 Falconer what he thought shield chatter was, then I have 5 no objection; it's up to you, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 If you want to do it, well, but we're taking into account 8 that it's indoors and totally different, but we'll make 9 the adjustment. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Times forty 14 (40). 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much. 16 Now -- excuse me. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Okay. Now, we were discussing the 23 comments of the -- the issue of the racist comments made, 24 and the -- the video that was made on, I believe it's 25 September the 5th, and what I propose to do now,
2341 Commissioner, is play that video, and what it is is, you 2 will see we will -- on that -- on the CD-ROM there's some 3 additional things, there's helicopter footage. 4 What we will try to do is extract the 5 video taken by Messrs Whitehead and -- and Dyke, and put 6 it on a separate CD, but if we could reserve a number for 7 that, it would be Exhibit... 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-452. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, it should be 10 described as a videotape taken, I believe it is, on 11 September the 5th, 1995 by Messrs Whitehead and Dyke. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-452: Videotape taken by Whitehead 14 and Dyke September 05/'95, 15 1:43 P.m. 16 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: What we're going to 18 see initially, Commissioner, is just the end of the -- 19 the end of the -- the tape, the helicopter tape, and then 20 it starts into the tape that we're interested in. 21 22 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 23 24 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now what's going to
2351 start is the tape that we're interested in. 2 3 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 4 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You'll see, 6 Commissioner, that the counter shows that this recording 7 was started on September 5th, 1995, at approximately 1:43 8 p.m. 9 10 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 13 Q: From the image on the screen now, 14 which appears to be at 1:47 on September 5th, the 15 photographer is outside the Park, in the sandy parking 16 lot, shooting in. 17 A: That's what it appears, yes. 18 Q: And the building at the back, behind 19 the car, do you recognize that building? 20 A: No. I'm not sure which one that is. 21 Q: And the car in the foreground appears 22 to have "OPP Who" on the side, is that the "OPP Who" car? 23 A: That's it, yeah. 24 25 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED)
2361 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: The building that's in the screen 3 now, at 1:48, do you recognize that building? 4 A: I can't be sure which one that is. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: It's probably the store. 7 8 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Do you recognize the voice of the 12 person saying: "You could do that newscast with one (1) 13 take"? 14 A: Sounds like Jim Dyke. 15 16 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Deputy Carson, the building in the 20 background that -- I suggest, perhaps, that was the 21 gatehouse? Do you recognize that as... 22 A: Actually, I -- I doubt that. 23 Q: You doubt that? Okay. And we've 24 seen that there appears to have been a substantial amount 25 of media in the sandy parking lot?
2371 A: Yes. I -- I don't think you can see 2 the gatehouse from -- from that parking lot. 3 Q: Okay. Thank you. 4 5 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And this appears to be up at the main 9 gate to the Army Camp? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And unfortunately, there's the 12 counter -- there's no counter on the video but the -- 13 there is approx -- there appears to be a number of 14 people, approximately six (6) in the frame, with a while 15 building behind it. 16 Actually seven (7) people in the frame 17 when you count the person on the right. 18 19 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And again these individuals appear to 23 be from, some of them at least, from the media? 24 A: Yes. 25
2381 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And there appears to be a clicking 5 sound in the background. It appears to be someone taking 6 pictures -- 7 A: That's -- 8 Q: It sounds like it? 9 A: I would agree. 10 11 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Do you recognize either of those two 15 (2) voices? 16 A: One (1) of them involved in the 17 discussion is Jim Dyke. 18 Q: And the other one? 19 A: There's -- actually there's two (2) 20 or three (3) there. I'm not sure where the officers are 21 from. 22 23 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
2391 Q: That's Jim Dyke there asking about 2 the plate numbers? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: At 17:29 on the computer counter. 5 6 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: The officers at this point, 21:05 in 10 this counter, appear to have left the other officers they 11 were talking to? 12 A: That's what it sounds like, yes. 13 14 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 15 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner -- I -- 17 this -- we're nearly at the end. These comments come 18 towards the end of this particular tape. And as I 19 recall, from listening to this before, are more legible 20 than what the other sounds that we hear on this tape. 21 22 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED - TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 23 24 SPEAKER 1: What the fuck is this? UP -- 25 SPEAKER 2: You're not supposed to be
2401 drinking over in that area. 2 SPEAKER 1: Yeah, what we're freelance? 3 SPEAKER 2: (laughs) What -- 4 SPEAKER 1: What are we supposed to be, 5 UPS? 6 SPEAKER 2: UPA. 7 SPEAKER 1: He said UPS. Where are you 8 guys from? UPS. 9 SPEAKER 2: UPS. 10 SPEAKER 1: United -- 11 SPEAKER 2: Parcel Service, sir. 12 SPEAKER 1: -- Postal. 13 SPEAKER 2: And we're disgruntled. Still 14 a lot of press down there? 15 SPEAKER 1: No, there's no one down 16 there. Just a big, fat fuck Indian. 17 SPEAKER 2: The camera's rolling. 18 SPEAKER 1: Yeah. We had this plan, you 19 know. We thought if we could five (5) or six (6) cases 20 of Labatt's 50, we could bait them. 21 SPEAKER 2: Yeah. 22 SPEAKER 1: And we'd have this big net at 23 a pit. 24 SPEAKER 2: Creative thinking. 25 SPEAKER 1: Works in the south with
2411 watermelon. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Do you recognize that voice? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And who was that? 7 A: Jim Dyke. 8 Q: And the -- with respect to the 9 comments that we've just heard, what if anything, did the 10 Ontario Provincial Police do with respect to the officers 11 involved in this exchange? 12 A: First, the Ontario Provincial Police 13 has spoken of this issue publicly, it is simply -- there 14 are no words to explain it. It is inappropriate, it's 15 unacceptable, it's not to be tolerated, and internal 16 disciplinary action was taken against both officers. 17 Q: And what internal disciplinary action 18 was taken? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Quite frankly, I'm not privileged to 23 the professional standards file that -- that would 24 contain that information. 25 Q: So you -- you're aware that
2421 disciplinary action was taken, but not what disciplinary 2 action was taken? 3 A: Correct. But what I do know, that 4 there -- how would I put it? 5 It was -- it was dealt without the 6 necessity of having a formal Police Services Act hearing. 7 Q: With respect to the -- the 8 discipline? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And the other officer involved, in 11 addition to Mr. Dyke was Mr. Whitehead? 12 A: Yes, that's correct. 13 Q: And you will note that these officers 14 appeared to be representing themselves as members of the 15 press; did you hear that? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And is that something that the 18 Ontario Provincial Police condones? 19 A: Well, that certainly has -- has been 20 a -- a subject of discussion as a -- as a result of all 21 this, and as a general commentary, no we don't use 22 officers posing as reporters for undercover operations. 23 However, I guess I -- I must point out, 24 you know, if -- if it -- would have been considered, I 25 suspect, only if it was in a situation where public
2431 safety or officer safety had no other means available to 2 us that were urgent nature. 3 Q: So in -- so in those situations, in 4 your view, it would be acceptable to pose as members of 5 the -- of the press or as reporters? 6 A: Generally speaking, no, but if there 7 was a situation where the public safety was an issue, or 8 officer safety, and there was no other means available to 9 the officers, it -- it -- you know, it's one (1) of those 10 things that might be necessary when there's no other 11 avenue available to the officers involved. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. Commissioner, 13 the -- I'd hoped to finish this afternoon, but it's -- 14 particularly with the -- the tape, it's taken a little 15 longer. 16 It might be -- it's a quarter after 4:00. 17 I know that Deputy Commissioner Carson has been here a 18 long time, and that -- I know you're under -- not feeling 19 a 100 percent, but perhaps we could break now, a few 20 minutes early, and start again tomorrow morning at nine 21 o'clock? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 Mr. Falconer...? 24 You don't want to break now? 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I do, Mr.
2441 Commissioner, and I do -- particularly I heard your voice 2 this afternoon; it didn't have the same cheery lilt -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That -- that -- so 5 I don't want to take your time -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm 7 struggling. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- any more and I 9 know that you're not feeling -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- well. I -- I 12 just thought that perhaps over the evening, certainly 13 from the point of view of Aboriginal Legal Services of 14 Toronto, the actual means used by the Ontario Provincial 15 Police to take remedial or corrective action in respect 16 of the police officers who issued the racist comments is 17 certainly relevant. 18 And I thought perhaps, over the course of 19 the evening, Deputy Commissioner Carson could inform 20 himself, so that could be a matter of record during your 21 Commission Counsel's examination. 22 Certainly, for the purposes of my cross- 23 examination, I expect to go into it. I just thought I 24 could give fair notice to My Friends, and we could get 25 the information.
2451 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you're 2 going to asking some questions about that, I take it, Mr. 3 Falconer? 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: To answer your 5 question, Mr. Commissioner, yes I -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I expect quite a 8 number of questions in this area, and -- and obviously 9 I'm a little disappointed that Deputy Commissioner 10 Carson -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- doesn't know 13 what discipline was meted out, but that can be corrected, 14 I suppose, simply by informing himself. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 16 know, I'm not sure it's that simple, but Mr. Sandler, do 17 you have something you wish to say? 18 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm not sure it's as 19 easy as that. 20 When -- when an internal discipline matter 21 takes place, unless a public hearing has actually taken 22 place, the -- it may well be, and the OPPA may be in a 23 better position than I am to -- to speak to the extent to 24 which either statute, or otherwise, prevents public 25 disclosure.
2461 I have to tell you on behalf of the OPP, 2 I'd be delighted, when we deal with incidents such as 3 this, that -- that the disciplinary measures be 4 articulated. So maybe we can work something out to 5 accommodate Mr. Falconer, because I agree with him that 6 it would be important, at some point, that -- that these 7 kinds of things be developed publicly, so that people 8 would know what the OPP response was. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Well, 10 let's hope -- 11 MR. MARK SANDLER: We'll see if we can 12 work on that and satisfy that -- satisfy that concern. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, perhaps if I 14 might, I'm not certain that -- I think that it's -- it's 15 -- the suggestion of Mr. Sandler is an excellent one and 16 I think that it should be pursued. 17 But with respect to this witness who 18 doesn't know it -- what the disciplinary action was, to 19 cross-examine him on something that he doesn't know, and 20 wasn't part of, doesn't seem to me to be very fruitful. 21 And perhaps we can deal with it with 22 discussions between Mr. Falconer and Mr. Sandler and 23 Commission Counsel, and -- but -- and the OPPA to 24 determine what's the most appropriate way to deal with 25 this. But I'm not, and I don't that think the Witness
2471 should be asked to deal with this over night. It's not 2 something he dealt with. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Yes, 4 Mr. Rosenthal...? 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry, Mr. 6 Commissioner, but I must rise. I haven't risen for 7 awhile. But this is not just a matter between Mr. 8 Falconer and Mr. Sandler and Commission Counsel, all the 9 Counsel are interested in the matter as well. We are 10 interested in the disciplinary measures that were meted 11 out. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sure 13 that's -- 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, that's fair 15 enough. I agree, I didn't mean to not say that Mr. 16 Rosenthal and others wouldn't be interested, it's a 17 subject that -- we may have to deal with in a discreet 18 method. All I'm saying is let's not trouble -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we'll 20 deal that, but you realize that we're going to have to 21 deal with it at some point, so we will. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, I 23 need, in ten (10) seconds or less, to simply respond to - 24 - to Mr. Millar's last statement, if I may, in ten (10) 25 seconds or less.
2481 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 3 Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto does find it 4 extremely relevant that the Deputy Commissioner of the 5 Ontario Provincial Police in such a high profile, 6 controversial matter, doesn't know what happened to the 7 officers. 8 So when My Friend suggests since he said 9 he doesn't know, we have to ask somebody else. With 10 great respect, I tried to actually announce the train 11 that's coming down the tracks, in the hopes, to be fair 12 to the Deputy Commissioner, he can inform himself. 13 So, with great respect to My Friend, Mr. 14 Millar, from ALST's point of view, it's of some concern 15 that the leadership doesn't know what happened. And with 16 great respect, we'll be asking him about it. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 18 Mr. Falconer, for that heads-up. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, but -- it's my 20 understanding it's a matter of policy, and he wasn't -- 21 that the -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is not 23 the time for the argument, but go ahead. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Fair enough. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I
2491 mean, this is -- we're going to obviously have answers, 2 or we're going to have an argument, or we're going to 3 have the explanation, one or the other. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, we can deal with 5 it, perhaps Mr. Sandler and Mr. Falconer -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I hope you 7 can resolve it overnight. And if you can't we'll have to 8 deal with it tomorrow morning. I hope you can resolve it 9 somehow and get satisfactory answers, and if you can't 10 we'll have to deal with it. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 13 to say something else? 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: I was just going to 15 say, I didn't take from Deputy Commissioner Carson's 16 comments, the same thing that Mr. Falconer did. But 17 we'll -- we'll debate that at another time. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I hope you 19 can debate it over night and get a resolution, but if you 20 can't we'll have to deal with it here. I didn't mean to 21 cut you off Mr. Millar, did you have something that you 22 didn't get to say that you meant to say? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, then 25 let's adjourn now for the day, and reconvene tomorrow
2501 morning at nine o'clock. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 3 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, June the 1st, at 4 9:00 a.m. 5 6 (WITNESS RETIRES) 7 8 --- Upon adjourning at 4:19 p.m. 9 10 11 Certified Correct 12 13 14 15 16 ______________________ 17 Dustin Warnock 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25