11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 30th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) (np) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) (np) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 7 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 204 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 4 P-438 TRANSCRIPTS OF CHATHAM LOGGER 5 TAPE 0146-TRACK 12 "TAC" CHANNEL 6 FOR 06 SEPTEMBER 1995 7 10:27PM - 11:10PM 122 8 P-439 MAP OF IPPERWASH, BOSANQUET TOWNSHIP 9 LAMPTON COUNTY WITH OPP 1993 10 CHECK POINTS MARKED. 163 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon Commencing at 10:33 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I've been parachuted 13 in. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 morning, Ms. Vella. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, it's not true. Mr. 17 Millar will be just a couple of seconds. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 22 morning, everybody. Good morning. 23 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
81 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I guess we 2 really shouldn't have come in yet. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Here he is. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 11 Commissioner. I apologize -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- for the delay. 15 Good morning, Deputy Carson. 16 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 17 18 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: If I could, I'd like to go back in 20 time, for a moment, to the telephone call that -- between 21 Stan -- Sergeant Korosec and when he was trying to get a 22 hold of Mr. Dean and the TRU team down in the Pinery 23 Park. 24 And the -- what we've tried to do, 25 Commissioner, is create a better transcript of this. But
91 the issue that I would like to -- I would simply like to 2 play the recording again and then ask Deputy Carson a 3 question with respect to it. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 8 9 September 6, 1995 10 20:25 11 12 Track # 50 13 14 (Unclear) traffic, traffic group. 15 16 .... when we were waiting to take this statement from him 17 (unclear) 18 19 Lacroix is on his way up. To do these guys. 20 21 Operator Marilyn speaking. 22 23 Operator, this is Sergeant Stan Korosec with the Ontario 24 Provincial Police at Forest. I need an emergency cut-in 25 on a phone please. Area code 519-243-8131. It's busy
101 and it's imperative I get a hold of the person on that 2 line. 3 4 Stancore, right? 5 6 Pardon me? 7 8 Your last name is Stancore? 9 10 Korosec - K.O.R.O.S.E.C. 11 12 (I guess nothing to do ... take a step back) 13 14 Thank you. 15 16 And who are you trying to reach there please? 17 18 Kent Skinner. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Someone, and I believe it's -- I'm 22 trying to identify the voices, Deputy Carson. The last 23 time we spoke of -- you identified Dale Linton's voice, 24 and you identified your voice. And there's a third voice 25 that can be heard on this telephone conversation when we
111 listen to it. 2 A: In -- in the background? 3 Q: In the background; it's in the 4 background. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 7 8 Korosec - K.O.R.O.S.E.C. 9 10 (I guess nothing to do ... take a step back) 11 12 Thank you. 13 14 And who are you trying to reach there please? 15 16 Kent Skinner. 17 18 Thank you. 19 20 (Our objective before this build up ... now we have this 21 shit ....) 22 23 ... Make an arrest). 24 25 (What happens if we just draw back? and evacuate some
121 houses.? 2 3 (Absolutely not.) 4 5 (We can do that too. What basically what we've done...) 6 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: There was a voice that said 10 "absolutely not." Did you hear that voice? 11 A: No. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 14 15 Our objective before this build up ... now we have this 16 shit ....) 17 18 ... Make an arrest). 19 20 (What happens if we just draw back? and evacuate some 21 houses.? 22 23 (Absolutely not.) 24 25 (We can do that too. What basically what we've done...)
131 2 THE WITNESS: I -- I heard it that time, 3 yes. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And do you recognize that voice? 7 A: I'm not sure, but it sounds, 8 possibly, Mark Wright. 9 Q: And does that -- do you recall today 10 if Mark Wright was part of this discussion with -- 11 A: I -- I don't -- quite frankly I don't 12 recall him being present during the discussion with Dale 13 Linton. 14 Q: Okay. Now we could move forward. 15 When we left on May 19th, we had -- it was at a point 16 where you had got to the MNR parking lot where the TRU 17 team TOC was set up, and the ERT TOC was set up. 18 And the -- when -- on May 19th, we 19 referred to Exhibit 410, and your note that indicated 20 that you, at 21:55, Lacroix and the CMU were at the TOC 21 location, putting the -- at the TOC location. 22 And then we played a conversation that 23 took place at 21:30 -- a communication at 21:34 which you 24 took as being -- your understanding was that the TRU 25 teams were being dropped off to provide observation.
141 Do you recall that? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And we also discussed the -- the 4 reference to the ERT officers who were on observation. 5 Now, can you tell me, at this point time, 6 at nine (9) -- approximately 9:30 on September 6th, 1995, 7 the -- with respect to the TRU team members that were 8 deployed, how many TRU team members were deployed down 9 towards the Park? 10 A: I can't tell you with any certainty 11 whether it was four (4) or six (6), but it would have 12 been at least two (2) teams of two (2), possibly a third 13 team. 14 That decision of how many officers to use 15 for that manoeuver that was requested of Skinner, it 16 would have been his decision to use the appropriate 17 personnel. 18 Q: And if -- and -- so the decision as 19 to how many TRU teams to put down, to do the task that 20 you wanted done, was up to Kent Skinner? 21 A: Right, I assign him the task, and it 22 would be up to him to deploy the appropriate people for 23 the task. Now, there was two (2) things being requested 24 as -- as I recall. One (1) was to get a -- a look at the 25 kiosk, and then the other was to provide cover, on either
151 side of the Parkway Road, for the crowd management team 2 that was about to come up the road. 3 Q: And as I understand it as well, the - 4 - from what you said last day, that the TRU team was to 5 take a look at what was going on in the parking lot? 6 A: That's true, there was -- and there 7 was already an ERT observer team that were in that 8 general area, at this same time, as well. 9 I think you'll find from the transcripts, 10 and from the command post minutes, some of the activity 11 is reported back through those personnel who were ERT 12 officers as opposed to the TRU officers. 13 Q: And... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me, 18 Commissioner. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And so at this point in time the -- 24 could you hear the communications on the Total Access 25 Channel?
161 A: I was outside of my police vehicle, 2 as the crowd management team are forming up, and dealing 3 with the TRU team personnel, Kent Skinner in particular. 4 Some of it I may have heard, and some of 5 it may have been provided to me by others. I didn't 6 carry a portable radio, so I would have heard all of the 7 transmissions on my person. 8 Q: Okay. And there was a transmission 9 at 21:35 that Lima 1 to all checkpoints, which I am going 10 to play. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: If I said 21:21, I meant -- I should 15 have said 21:35. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 18 19 September 6, 1995 20 21:35 21 Track # 2135 22 23 Lima One to all checkpoints - stand by. 24 Lima One to all checkpoints, be advised in the near 25 future Checkpoints Delta and Alpha will be relieved by
171 uniform. Will be relieved by uniform at which time Delta 2 and Alpha will return to the TOC. Delta and Alpha will 3 return to the TOC. Delta will return via Ipperwash Road. 4 When Delta is relieved, Delta you are to advise Lima One 5 at which point Checkpoint Charlie will also leave by Army 6 Camp Road to 21 Highway and the Ipperwash Road to the 7 TOC. Checkpoint Delta is that ten four? 8 9 Lima One, Checkpoint Delta û ten four. 10 11 Checkpoint Charlie, is that ten four? 12 13 Charlie ten four 14 15 Checkpoint Alpha û ten four? 16 17 Alpha ten four. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And what was your understanding as to 21 the -- what was going to happen as a result of this 22 communication with respect to uniformed members Delta and 23 Alpha checkpoints? 24 A: What was happening here is, there was 25 direction being given that once uniformed members arrived
181 at the checkpoints, the ERT officers were to move to the 2 TOC location. 3 Q: And the TOC location being discussed 4 in this communication is the Tactical Operations Centre 5 at the MNR parking lot? 6 A: That's right, sir. 7 Q: And then, at 21:37. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 10 11 September 6, 1995 12 21:37 13 14 Track # 2137 15 16 TRU suburban to all ERT members on the ground be advised 17 that TRU members are deploying. Go ahead. 18 19 Tex (unclear). 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: So, at 21:37 that appears to be a 23 communication from the TRU members. Did you hear that? 24 A: Well, it -- it's -- it's a 25 communication that TRU is deploying, it wouldn't be TRU
191 necessarily giving that information. 2 Q: And the -- would be -- they were 3 deploying down East Parkway Drive? 4 A: Yes. I believe they were dropped off 5 in the vicinity and worked their way into position. 6 Q: Okay. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And there's a communication at 21:38. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 13 14 September 6, 1995 15 21:38 16 17 Track # 2138 18 19 Lima One to all checkpoints advise which checkpoint has 20 prisoners van. 21 22 Checkpoint Bravo is equipped with a prisoner van. 23 24 Yeah, ten four, be advised it is to be left at the TOC 25 with the keys in
201 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And at this point in time, at 3 21:38, what do you take from this communication? 4 A: Well, the supervisor is checking 5 to determination of a prisoner van. 6 Q: And the prisoner van is to be left 7 at the TOC? 8 A: At checkpoint Bravo which is right 9 outside the TOC, yes, on Parkway Road. 10 Q: And... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: There's a communication at 21:39. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 17 18 September 6, 1995 19 21:39 20 21 Track # 2139 22 23 Lima Two from Checkpoint Delta 24 25 Checkpoint Delta, you calling TRU?
211 Lima Two from Checkpoint Delta 2 3 Lima Two û go ahead 4 5 We're in a lot of traffic down here, and a lot of 6 traffic, we're probably going to start getting some rocks 7 coming in any minute 8 9 Ten four Lima One, you read that? 10 11 Lima One to Delta 12 13 Lima One from Lima Two 14 15 Go ahead Lima Two 16 17 Did you read Delta, advises lots happening there, 18 expecting rocks to fly momentarily? 19 20 Yeah, ten four. I'm trying to find out from Delta 21 whether it appears that the women and children have left 22 the camp or not. 23 24 Lima One, Delta û women and children have left earlier 25 on. They passed this checkpoint earlier.
221 Right, ten four Checkpoint Delta. How many vehicles has 2 he got down there? 3 4 Two. There's a big dump truck, there's the batmobile. 5 They've just started a large bonfire. I told the people 6 here if we start getting fire bombs, we're out of here. 7 8 Right, ten four. They're inside the camp though? 9 10 Ten four. They're just inside on the road. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: At this point in time, checkpoint 14 Delta is up near Highway 21, is that not correct? 15 A: I believe so, yes. 16 Q: And what's being referred to is -- 17 what is your understanding of what is being referred to? 18 A: It sounds likes there is a -- a 19 number of people just over the fence and they're 20 anticipating having rocks heaved at them, shortly. 21 Q: And -- but -- and it -- where -- your 22 under -- what is your understanding of the location of 23 where this is taking place? 24 A: That's the checkpoint at Highway 21 25 near the -- just outside of the entrance of the military
231 base, closer to the 21 Highway, but on Army Camp Road. 2 Q: On Army Camp Road and that'd be -- 3 people being referred to are inside the army camp? 4 A: That's -- that's what it sounds like, 5 yes. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And were you advised of this 10 transmission, do you recall? 11 A: I don't recall that transmission at 12 all, quite frankly. 13 Q: Okay. Then at 21:41 there's a 14 communication between Lima 2, Oscar 1, and Lima 1. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 17 18 September 6, 1995 19 21:41 20 21 Track # 2141 22 23 Lima One. Oscar One. 24 25 Go ahead Oscar One
241 We've got a lot of traffic here, ATVs on the beach 2 looking for traffic on the road and cars stopped 3 (unclear) people all over the place here we're going back 4 a little bit (unclear) 5 6 Ten four 7 8 Lima One to Delta. Lima One to Delta 9 10 Lima One, Delta û go ahead 11 12 Okay, Lima One from Delta û stand by one. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: That's very unclear, did you 16 understand any of that? 17 A: It -- very, very little of it, it's 18 over-modulating by the officer who's transmitting back. 19 Q: And the officer -- Oscar 1 was the 20 ERT that 21 was -- 22 A: Yeah, he -- he would be an ERT 23 observer. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: So, in all likelihood would have been
251 positioned in and around the cottages, off of Parkway 2 Road, in the general vicinity of the Sandy Parking Lot, 3 or in that general area. What -- what's happening here 4 is that he's probably transmitting back trying to keep 5 his voice level low, but because he has the microphone 6 positioned so close to his mouth, that it comes across 7 very muffled. 8 Q: All right. And then, there's a 9 transmission at 21:42 between Lima 1 and Oscar. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 12 13 September 6, 1995 14 21:42 15 Track # 2142 16 17 Lima One Oscar 18 19 Go Lima One 20 21 We got people close by. 22 23 Got the day shift down, coming down right now in crowd 24 management formation to drive them down right now 25
261 They're on the way Oscar 2 Oscar One Go ahead 3 4 Can you confirm if Delta people are I/A we've got people 5 in the (unclear). Just want to confirm of Delta I/A. 6 7 Oscar One from Lima One, if you've gotta get out of 8 there. Get out of there. Ten four. 9 10 10-4. 11 12 Advise when you have. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And this communication is at 21:42, 16 and the -- it's a communication between Lima 1 and Oscar 17 1? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And the -- Lima 1 is at the mobile 20 command unit in Forest? 21 A: Yes. I believe that's Sergeant -- 22 Sergeant Graham we're hearing. 23 Q: On the... 24 A: On the radio as Lima 1. 25 Q: And Sergeant Graham can be heard to
271 say: 2 "Got the day shift down, coming down 3 right now in crowd management formation 4 to drive them down right now." 5 Did you hear that on the tape? 6 A: Something to the essence of that, 7 yes. 8 Q: And had a decision been made at 9 21:42, which is 9:42, to send the crowd management unit 10 down the East Parkway Drive? 11 A: Well, they were being formed up in 12 the TOC parking lot, at that point I don't believe I had 13 given the authorization to leave yet, but clearly they 14 were being formed up and Graham would have known that. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: But the context here, I -- I'm not 17 sure if -- if it's clear is it? It looks like the -- 18 Oscar team is looking for support of some sort. They're 19 obviously concerned about their position is why Graham 20 would have told them, if necessary, just pull back. 21 Q: Yes. And now Delta, at this point, 22 was still up at Highway -- near Highway 21? 23 A: That's right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
281 Q: And in the scribed notes it's 2 reported -- these items are reported in the scribe notes, 3 but what I'm trying to understand is, with respect to 4 these communications: (a) what your understanding of -- 5 is happening and (b) what, if anything, you were told 6 about these particular communications that we're 7 listening to right now. 8 Because at this point, you're down at the 9 MNR parking lot. 10 A: Right. What I can tell you is I -- I 11 knew they were issues with our -- our observation post 12 that there was certainly activity in that parking lot. 13 And some of the transmissions while I was speaking to the 14 likes of -- whether it's Lacroix or other officers there, 15 as -- as I'm standing there I would have heard some of 16 the transmissions over the radio as -- as they were 17 transmitted back. 18 Because each officer would be carrying a 19 portable with a lapel mike, which would have been 20 broadcasting off their shoulder, technically. 21 Q: So some of these you may have heard 22 when you were there? 23 A: Right. And -- and at one -- at some 24 point I end up moving to the TRU team vehicle, and I 25 would have heard all the transmissions from that point.
291 Q: The next transmission is one at 2 21:46. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 5 6 September 6, 1995 7 21:46 8 9 Track # 2146 10 11 Oscar team on the ground from TAC one. 12 13 Oscar team on the ground from TAC one. 14 15 Oscar, who's calling? 16 17 Oscar team from TAC one, can you go back to the house you 18 just passed? 19 20 That's 10-4. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And can you tell us who, if you know, 24 is TAC 1. 25 A: It's likely the TRU team leader or
301 somebody designated by him; whether it's one of his men, 2 or himself I'm not sure. 3 Q: Do you recognize that voice? 4 A: I'm not sure. I -- I don't think 5 it's Kent Skinner, but it's possible. It's just not 6 quite clear enough to tell. 7 Q: And do you under -- what is your 8 understanding as to what is happening as a result of this 9 transmission? 10 A: Well the -- the TRU team officers are 11 moving into position, and the OSCAR teams are withdrawing 12 from positions, and obviously they're trying to make some 13 connection there as they're, for lack of a better term, 14 trading places. 15 Q: Okay. Then there's a transmission at 16 21:48, and I believe this is Wade Lacroix. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 19 20 September 6, 1995 21 21:48 22 23 Track # 2148 24 25 I need a one district officer to attend at Lima Two to
311 obtain some equipment from the blue van, asap. 2 3 P.C. Root one district I'm at the blue van right now. Go 4 ahead. 5 6 Ten four if you can get a shield over here please, one 7 shield. 8 9 I'll send it right in. 10 11 Right in. 12 13 10-4 Mike. 14 15 I/A to Wade. 16 17 10-4. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Do you recognize any of the voices on 21 that transmission? 22 A: No, sir, I'm sorry. 23 Q: And then at ... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
321 Q: The transmission at 21:49: 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 4 5 September 6, 1995 6 21:49 7 8 Track # 2149 9 10 Delta from Lima One û what's the status like down there? 11 12 Checkpoint Delta from Lima One 13 14 Lima One Checkpoint Delta. I'm very busy down here I 15 wouldn't put uniforms in here just right now, ten four. 16 17 Ten four. Checkpoint Charlie from Lima One. What's your 18 status like? 19 20 We're getting the odd vehicle by here as instructed. 21 22 Ten four. Can I .. you think it's okay if I relieve that 23 ... relieve that position or should I relieve it with 24 uniforms? 25
331 With the road blocked off at either end. Its probably 2 not necessary we be here. 3 4 Charlie û should uniform be there or can we just 5 disregard it? 6 7 Disregard it. 8 9 Okay, Charlie û you want to 1019 the TOC? 1019 the TOC? 10 You know which way not to go and you'll be supplement to 11 the CMU that's forming up down there as an arrest team. 12 10-4. 13 14 10-4. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And, what's your understanding as to 18 what was to happen as a result of this transmission if 19 anything? 20 A: Well, what they're looking at there 21 is, there's some roadblocks in place. It sounds like the 22 one on Parkway Drive and what they've asked is, is there 23 a need for the checkpoint in front of the TOC or can they 24 just have the officers go into the -- the TOC and be 25 available for the crowd management unit.
341 Q: And perhaps we could take you back 2 to Exhibit 437, which is the computer file with the 3 photos that we did last week, because I think that 4 checkpoint Charlie was not in the location that you just 5 told us. It'll come back up on the screen and we need 6 the Army Camp Road and Highway 21 to -- to show the 7 checkpoints on Army Camp Road. 8 And, checkpoint Charlie or Checkpoint "C" 9 was on Army Camp Road? 10 A: Oh, correct, you're right, yes. 11 Q: And so, the checkpoint on Army Camp 12 Road that's referred to as "C" was being removed and the 13 officers were being sent to the TOC? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And, they were to act as an arrest 16 team? 17 A: I didn't hear that, specifically, but 18 they would be available for the CMU leader to us. 19 Now, whether he indicate arrest team or 20 not, I -- I didn't discern that. 21 Q: Okay. Perhaps we'll just play that 22 last part of that conversation -- play the whole... 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 25
351 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The gremlins have got 2 us, Deputy Carson. Sometimes the... 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 5 6 September 6, 1995 7 21:49 8 9 Track # 2149 10 11 Delta from Lima One û what's the status like down there? 12 13 Checkpoint Delta from Lima One 14 15 Lima One Checkpoint Delta. I'm very busy down here I 16 wouldn't put uniforms in here just right now, ten four. 17 18 Ten four. Checkpoint Charlie from Lima One. What's your 19 status like? 20 21 We're getting the odd vehicle by here as instructed. 22 23 Ten four. Can I .. you think it's okay if I relieve that 24 ... relieve that position or should I relieve it with 25 uniforms?
361 With the road blocked off at either end. Its probably 2 not necessary we be here. 3 4 Charlie û should uniform be there or can we just 5 disregard it? 6 7 Disregard it. 8 9 Okay, Charlie û you want to 1019 the TOC? 1019 the TOC? 10 You know which way not to go and you'll be supplement to 11 the CMU that's forming up down there as an arrest team. 12 10-4. 13 14 10-4. 15 16 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, it sounds like it says 18 supplement the CMU as in arrest team. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: As an arrest team? 22 A: That's what it sounds like. 23 Q: And 10-19 is simply -- it means to -- 24 to -- 25 A: Come back --
371 Q: -- to the TOC? 2 A: Yeah, to come back to the TOC, yes, 3 return to. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I may 8 be the only one, but I'm rather confused by how we're 9 proceeding on with this witness. 10 We have here in Mr. Carson one of the most 11 crucial actors in this whole scenario and we're spending 12 literally hours having him serve as an interpreter of 13 some barely audible tapes which he may or may not have 14 heard at the time and most of which he's not able to 15 actually decipher. 16 I would have thought that what we need to 17 hear from Mr. Carson is his evidence as to what he 18 recalls happened, what he did, what he recalls doing and 19 why he recalls doing it. 20 And what we have here is something that 21 doesn't even qualify as a particularly a way of 22 refreshing the -- the witness' memory. They're not his 23 records, they're not necessarily conversations he heard 24 at the time and I'm -- I'm left really unclear. 25 Even if eventually we get to hear what
381 this witness' memory is of the events, it will be 2 impossible for you, Mr. Commissioner, to distinguish 3 between what he has an independent recollection of and 4 what is merely his interpretation of these audio 5 recordings. 6 And the most important point is we're -- 7 we're losing the force of the importance of this witness' 8 evidence and we should -- we should be hearing it as he 9 remembers it today and we should -- we should hear it 10 without having it interrupted and, frankly, diluted to 11 the point of almost insignificance by having him 12 endlessly comment on inaudible chatter. 13 So I'm -- I'm -- I'm just -- I may be the 14 only one and if I am, I'm happy to sit and listen, but 15 frankly, my submission is it's not -- it's not an 16 effective way to proceed and it's not a good use of time. 17 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, I arise 18 on the simple point of My Friend who just spoke to say 19 he's not the only one. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, this is 21 as you know, an investigation and that's what we're 22 trying to do. It's not a trial, it's not a court, it's 23 not a -- it's a -- it's not that kind of civil -- either 24 civil or criminal proceeding. 25 You're instructed and your mandate is to
391 investigate and we're simply doing part of -- it's -- 2 what -- this is information that was available and at the 3 time and I'm -- from this witness, who has given evidence 4 and will give more evidence this morning, I'm simply 5 asking him what he knew or did not know or understand as 6 to what was happening under his command at the relevant 7 period -- at this period of time on September the 6th. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where are 9 you going to go -- what's going to happen from hereon in? 10 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Well, Commissioner, 11 if Mr. Millar were asking the Witness the question that 12 he just said he was asking the Witness, I'd have no 13 problem. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 15 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: What he's asking the 16 Witness to do is to endlessly comment on -- on tapes that 17 -- and -- and I would have thought that if Commission 18 Counsel was properly prepared, Commission Counsel would 19 know in advance whether or not this Witness had any 20 relevant evidence to give on a particular tape or not as 21 opposed to having us listen to audiotape and then have 22 the Witness say in two (2) or three (3) words that he can 23 barely make it out himself. 24 So, it's not a good use of time and it is 25 blunting the impact of this Inquiry if we continue on
401 that way and in terms of an investigation, Commissioner, 2 the value -- any -- any competent investigation will 3 first try to determine what the Witness actually 4 remembers, unprompted by a whole quagmire of -- of 5 inaudible audiotapes. 6 So, we -- we've waited a long time to -- 7 to have this Witness answer for what he did on that 8 evening and in -- in my submission we're entitled to know 9 that and to know what this Witness actually remembers 10 without having him taken through all this material. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, thank 12 you. Thank you. I think Mr. Millar is going to ask him 13 what he knows -- 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Of course, that's what 15 I've been doing for the last -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so. 17 Where do you go from here, Mr. Millar? I mean, how do 18 you anticipate this Witness going from here on? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we're going to 20 finish -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How many 22 more of these tapes? I know there's one (1) long one 23 that you... 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We have a few and 25 there's one (1) very long one and the -- which we will
411 get to in due course unless you tell me not to. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we're 3 having people standing up and I'm anxious to get on with 4 it. Having the objections isn't going to make us go any 5 faster, but I do appreciate them. 6 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I'm -- I'm -- wasn't 7 to -- to rise, but I've a couple of concerns. Frankly, 8 for an enterprise that is supposed to be getting at the 9 facts, I'm finding hearing these recordings, although 10 sometimes they aren't -- it -- it isn't possible to get 11 the content from. I'm finding hearing the -- the 12 recordings to be helpful, first of all, in understanding 13 the facts. 14 And with respect, every lawyer and, I'm 15 sure, yourself in this room can distinguish between what 16 the Witness is saying that -- that is his observations 17 and what is interpretation, reasonable interpretation, 18 which is quite helpful in understanding these facts and I 19 -- I must say I -- I'm very concerned to hear the sort of 20 rhetoric that I'm hearing this morning suggesting that 21 Commission Counsel's not prepared -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 23 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- or that somehow 24 Commission Counsel's trying to obscure the dramatic 25 portions of the evidence. I think that 's quite
421 inappropriate and we could do without it. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much, Mr. Downard. I'm not anxious to have all 4 lawyers speaking on this issue. I'd like to move on. 5 Yes, Mr... 6 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm just going say 7 briefly, I've been quiet up until this point, even though 8 Deputy Commissioner Carson is -- is my Witness. 9 This is always a dilemma when you've got 10 two (2) facts that -- that intrude. The first is, that 11 we're asking a Witness to describe events that occurred 12 ten (10) years ago. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: And -- and for Mr. 15 Horton to expect, with great respect, that with -- with 16 absolute clarity this Witness will remember which 17 conversations he heard and which parts of them he heard 18 and which he didn't, isn't really doing justice to this 19 Witness or any other Witness, frankly, in these 20 proceedings. 21 And, second of all, when you have the 22 interrelationship between chronology and personal 23 knowledge, it's always a dilemma for Commission Counsel 24 or anyone else to decide how much of it to play to an 25 individual witness, but the chronology is helpful and as
431 I will submit as we get to some of the conversations, 2 communications, a little bit later on, critical whether 3 or not -- whether or not Deputy Commissioner actually 4 heard each and every one of them, but critical to 5 articulate the chronology and explain what happened. 6 So, in my submission, it's -- it's a 7 difficult task and I don't envy Commission Counsel, but I 8 don't see any real alternative in dealing with it in this 9 way. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 11 anxious to hear anymore on this. I think that Commission 12 Counsel is very well prepared. I'm aware of that. I 13 know how difficult it's been to prepare this for some of 14 the reasons that Mr. Sandler just said and I think we're 15 making progress and although it is difficult, I think we 16 all acknowledge that, I think we're making progress and I 17 just want to keep on going. 18 So, if you would carry on, Mr. Millar, I 19 would appreciate it. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: The -- with respect to the -- at 23 21:49, the TRU team is down in -- as we've heard, is down 24 towards the -- the Park, and at this point in time had 25 you heard anything back, do you recall, from the TRU
441 team? 2 A: I don't believe so. 3 Q: And the -- at 21:54 there's a 4 communication between Lima 2 and Lima 1 with respect to 5 the CMU and an arrest team. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 8 9 September 6, 1995 10 21:54 11 12 Track # 2154 13 14 Lima Two - Lima One 15 16 Lima One, Lima Two go ahead 17 18 I need any ERT that are at the TOC site there, I got five 19 coming from Charlie they are to supplement the CMU as 20 best as possible as an arrest team and anyone left over I 21 want manning those two vans that are down there, that'll 22 be two in each and they're to remain at the TOC unless 23 they're called to pick up 1092's. Is that ten four? 24 25 10-4. I only have two people here. I'm not sure what's
451 outside right now. You're not talking about the check 2 point are you? 3 4 No. The ones that are at the TOC, that aren't doing 5 anything û how many you got at the check point Alpha? 6 7 I've got two people at the TOC here right now and at 8 check point Alpha I should have eight people. 9 10 Lima Two this is Alpha, we have 6 bodies here, six bodies 11 here with I/A. 12 13 (Unclear) ... the CMU do so. 14 15 Okay, repeat that Lima One. 16 17 If you can relieve some members from Alpha if they're not 18 busy, they don't need all eight down there, they can 19 attend the TOC and supplement CMU when they arrive if 20 they're not already there. 21 22 I need to clear this with Alpha. 23 24 You want them suited up then? 25
461 No the supplement will be in softac, softac. 2 3 Alpha to Lima Two. This is Alpha we have six bodies 4 repeat six bodies, we can definitely let at least two go 5 with a caged van if you want that? 6 7 Yeah, ten four. 8 9 If so you'll be in softac and supplement CMU as an arrest 10 team. 11 12 Okay, I'm sending two one district ERT teams that are 13 going across to TAC to assist as an arrest squad. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And that communication at 21:54 is -- 17 did you hear that communication? 18 A: I don't recall it. 19 Q: And as a result of that 20 communication, what is your understanding, was going to 21 happen at 21:54? 22 A: They were moving some of the 23 uniformed -- some of the officers -- what they're 24 referring to here as soft tact, is they would be in grey 25 uniforms without their protective crowd management gear
471 on. 2 So it would be same uniform as they had on 3 normal checkpoint duty. 4 Q: And then I'm going to play two (2) 5 transmissions, Commissioner, one at 21:52 and one at 6 21:53. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 9 10 September 6, 1995 11 21:52 12 13 Track # 2152 14 15 Lima One, Delta. 16 17 Go ahead 18 19 We've got a problem here, we need some uniforms right at 20 21 keeping them out of here. 21 22 Delta, ten four. I'll send you six right now. 23 24 Send them up right at 21 and just don't let anybody down 25 here. They have I/A lighting us up.
481 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And what did you understand -- 3 firstly, did you hear this transmission? 4 A: No. But what's happening is there's 5 -- just to explain what they're talking about when they 6 say lighting us up, it's common practice that very bright 7 spotlights are used and put into the area where the 8 officers are and -- and in particular, into their eyes, 9 if possible, to make it difficult for them to see what's 10 going on. 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 14 15 September 6, 1995 16 21:53 17 18 Track # 2153 19 20 Lima Two, Delta we've got three vehicles northbound 21 towards the base. 22 23 Ten four Delta. 24 25 Is this from the army camp Delta, or on the road?
491 On the army ... army base road, army base road. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And did you hear that transmission? 5 A: No, sir. 6 Q: Then with respect to -- at 22:02 7 there's a transmission. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 10 11 September 6, 1995 12 22:02 13 14 Track # 2202 15 16 Lima two this is Alpha. 17 18 Go ahead Alpha. 19 20 For your info we turned another pick-up truck around 21 again. Turned another pick-up truck around again 22 (unclear) try and just blocked off ... 23 24 Ten four. 25
501 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And Alpha -- firstly did you hear 3 this transmission? 4 A: No, sir. 5 Q: And Alpha, at this point, was located 6 near the MNR parking lot? 7 A: I believe so. 8 Q: Then at 22:06. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 11 12 September 6, 1995 13 22:06 14 15 Track # 2206 16 17 Oscar One from Lima Two 18 19 Lima Two Oscar One 20 21 Are you still in position Oscar One? 22 23 10-4 still in position. Go ahead 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
511 Q: And that's a communication between 2 Oscar 1, which was the observation team? 3 A: Yes, it was. 4 Q: The ERT observation team? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And what is your understanding as to 7 -- firstly, did you hear this transmission? 8 A: I don't recall hearing it. 9 Q: And what's your understanding as to 10 what is happening at -- as a result of this transmission? 11 A: It -- it's difficult for me to tell 12 what -- what they're up to. I just can't hear it very 13 clear, I'm sorry. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And at 22:07. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 20 21 September 6, 1995 22 22:07 23 24 Track # 2207(a) 25
521 Oscar, Oscar One, Lima Two. 2 3 Go ahead Lima Two. 4 5 Oscar One, Lima Two, you want to fall back to the TAC, 6 fall back? 7 8 10-4 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And at -- did you -- were you able to 12 hear that -- 13 A: Yes, the -- 14 Q: -- Deputy Carson? 15 A: The Oscar team was directed to return 16 to the TOC site. 17 Q: And did you direct the Oscar team to 18 return to the TOC site? 19 A: No, I did not. 20 Q: And who would have made that 21 decision? 22 A: Well, what would happen in -- in a 23 case like that is between the ERT leaders and the TRU 24 team leaders, they would have worked out the deployment 25 of personnel, so that the TRU people would have relieved
531 the ERT officers who were on observation. 2 So, it -- it's a process that they will go 3 through at the supervisory level, particularly the 4 sergeants or the staff sergeant, to ensure that the TRU 5 team know, and -- and it's key that they know where the 6 observation teams are, because as they move into 7 position, you don't want them stumbling over each other, 8 or mistaking them for -- for something else. 9 So, it's -- it's a -- that's a typical 10 hand off that takes place in any operation where ERT 11 teams are providing containment, and then TRU team would 12 relieve them. 13 Q: Okay. And then at 22:07 there's 14 another transmission. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 17 18 September 6, 1995 19 22:07 20 21 Track # 2207(b) 22 23 Lima Two Delta. 24 25 Lima One Delta
541 Lima Two Delta 2 3 Lima Two to Delta 4 5 Lima Two this is Delta 6 7 There's two more vehicles headed north loaded with 8 people. 9 10 Is this from where you are? 11 12 I/A 13 14 I/A 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: That second transmission was a 18 different transmission. Did you hear this transmission? 19 The first one with respect to vehicle -- the traffic 20 going north? 21 A: I -- I don't recall it personally. 22 Q: And when did you make the decision to 23 send the CMU down East Parkway Drive? 24 A: Well technically that decision was 25 made
551 -- we were going to form up the crowd management team 2 when I was back at the command post in my discussion with 3 Dale Linton that we're going to -- to do that, given the 4 circumstances, as we understood them at that time. 5 As I went forward -- I mean, as I 6 indicated in one of my notes, that if they're sitting 7 around having a wiener roast, obviously we're not going 8 to do anything. But it was clear, as I got forward, 9 there was a lot of activity going on down there. 10 And the information continued to support 11 that -- the -- the information from the observer teams 12 was that there was a number of people moving around, and 13 -- and that actually it -- it was not lessening at all. 14 So, you know, quite frankly it was just a 15 matter of continuing the decision as opposed to making a 16 new decision, I would suggest, and verifying the 17 information as we understood it earlier. 18 Q: And at this point in time, at 22:07, 19 had you heard back from the TRU team? What information 20 had you received from the TRU team? 21 A: I can't tell you off the top of my 22 head what I heard back from TRU team but in -- I know I 23 had requested information on -- on the sight lines from 24 the kiosk, and there was a number of transmissions to the 25 TRU team TOC vehicle.
561 But I -- I can't tell you specifically 2 which piece of information I had at that given time. But 3 -- but clearly I was satisfied that the activity was 4 still present in that parking lot area between the 5 information received from the OSCAR teams, and the other 6 information provided to me by the ERT supervisors and the 7 TRU team leader. 8 Q: And -- 9 So it's really not any one particular 10 fact. I mean it's -- it's a culmination of a number of 11 issues that are happening all at the same time. 12 Q: And -- and can you tell us what the 13 key factors were with respect that -- you said there's a 14 -- a series of factors, events that were happening, well, 15 what were those events? 16 A: Well, you have now people out on the 17 roadway, there had been a vehicle damaged earlier. You 18 have a number of them around those cottages adjacent to 19 the Park. 20 We're getting information from the OSCAR 21 team that there has been activity in the area of the -- 22 the beach, coming up the beach, that the individuals had 23 bats or bat-like objects and there was concern about the 24 cottages in the area that they would be broken into. 25 We certainly had a lot of information that
571 continued to come our way from the occupiers themselves 2 that the cottages were next. 3 There was the bus and the car roaring 4 around and, in fact, there was some information here that 5 vehicular traffic was now into the parking lot area, so 6 it -- it's not any one (1) thing, it's a whole host of 7 things together. 8 Q: And anything else? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Not off the top of my head as I'm 13 sitting here, I'm sorry. 14 Q: And, we heard the last day, a 15 transmission with -- that you were part of with respect 16 to Mr. -- Sergeant Wright where he asked for information 17 to be advised if the bus or the dump truck or vehicles 18 went out into the parking lot, do you recall that? 19 A: I believe there was something to that 20 effect, yes. 21 Q: And, he asked to be advised as soon 22 as -- it was the sit rep. report reference in the 23 telephone call and asked to be advised immediately if the 24 bus or the, I believe it's the dump truck, went out into 25 the parking lot.
581 A: Right. 2 Q: And, had you been given any 3 information as of this time at 22:07 or shortly after ten 4 o'clock on September 6th, whether or not the school bus 5 or the dump truck had gone out into the parking lot? 6 A: No. I -- I -- I don't -- I don't 7 recall and I don't believe the bus or the school bus had 8 actually went into the parking lot at that point in time. 9 I was of the impression there were vehicles out in the 10 parking lot, but I was not -- not of the impression that 11 it was the bus or the -- the -- the dump truck. 12 And, I guess, to your last point the 13 other issue with the school bus is, every time the school 14 bus has been brought into play here, there has been -- 15 been clearly some issues and I refer back to the -- the 16 school bus became a key factor in -- as the weapon of 17 choice in the drill hall incident. 18 So, once that was brought down there, 19 there was -- and it was being driven in the parking lot - 20 - Provincial Park, there was certainly some concern what 21 the intent was to do with it. 22 Q: Okay. And, at 22:11, you spoke to - 23 - you called the Command Post and -- in the -- the two 24 (2) volumes that are up on the -- yes? It's volume 25 number 2 and Tab 54 for My Friends. It's a conversation
591 at 22:11 on September 6th. It's conversation number 56 2 on the Carson Master Complete Final without Elapsed Time 3 list. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 6 7 John CARSON and Dale LINTON 8 9 September 6, 1995 10 TIME: 22:11:47 hours 11 Track 1.wav 12 13 PETERMAN: Command post, PETERMAN. 14 CARSON: Hi, Rose, it's John CARSON here ah is Dale 15 there please? 16 PETERMAN: Ah yeah hold on. 17 CARSON: Or Mark WRIGHT. 18 LINTON: Yes John. 19 CARSON: Hi Dale. 20 LINTON: Hello...hello. 21 CARSON: Can you hear me Dale? 22 LINTON: Just barely, go ahead. 23 CARSON: Okay, do do we do we know who lives in 24 that that house at the end? 25 LINTON: No we'll find out.
601 CARSON: Ah if at all possible we could call there 2 and see if anybody is there...can you hear me? 3 LINTON: Yeah. 4 CARSON: Okay for two reasons, a) to get some 5 information and b) to tell them to stay 6 away from the Park side of that (I/A) (static). 7 LINTON: Okay. 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 LINTON: Yeah. 10 CARSON: And if you can confirm that can you call 11 me back... 12 LINTON: Yeah. 13 CARSON: On my cell phone? 14 LINTON: Yeah. 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 LINTON: Yeah. 17 CARSON: Okay thanks. 18 LINTON: Bye. 19 Background radio transmissions...I got four, four units 20 21 End of conversation. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And the -- at Tab 54 at the top of 25 page 345, the transcript indicates that you say you:
611 "Okay, for two (2) reasons, (a) to get 2 some information and (b) to tell them 3 to stay away from the park side of 4 that." 5 And then it was inaudible and there was 6 static. 7 Did you hear that on that tape? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And what were you -- what was the 10 purpose of this call to Inspector Linton at this point in 11 time at 22:11 on September the 6th? 12 A: We were trying to identify if there 13 were occupants in the house, if they could provide us 14 with any information they may have from what they could 15 see from their vantage point, and also to stay away from 16 the side of the house that faced the sandy parking lot. 17 Q: And the house that you're referring 18 to is which house? 19 A: It's the first house that borders 20 against the property of the sandy parking lot. 21 Q: And immediately to the west of the 22 sandy parking lot? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then did you hear back from 25 Inspector Linton, do you recall?
621 A: I'm not sure if he called me back, 2 but at some point in time I was of the impression the 3 house was vacant or there was no one home. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I'm not sure how I achieved that 6 information. 7 Q: And perhaps you could point out on 8 what is Exhibit 437 the location of the house that you 9 are concerned about? 10 A: This one here. 11 Q: And perhaps we could mark that with a 12 Number 1? And then at eleven (11) -- at 22:34 you had a 13 conversation with Mark Wright and it appears at Tab 55 of 14 the book of calls and it's call number 57. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 17 18 John CARSON and Mark WRIGHT 19 20 September 6, 1995 21 TIME: 22:34:54 hours 22 Track 1.wav 23 (Dialling of phone...we are unable to complete your call 24 as dialled...) 25 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN.
631 CARSON: Yeah this is Inspector CARSON here 2 (static) (I/A) please. 3 PETERMAN: Ah I can hardly read you, who are you 4 asking... 5 CARSON: It's Inspector CARSON here, is Mark WRIGHT 6 there? 7 PETERMAN: Yeah hold on. 8 WRIGHT: Yeah John. 9 CARSON: Yeah is ah did we hear back ah on who 10 lives in that house on the corner or if they're if 11 they had a phone number in there? 12 WRIGHT: Yeah I think ah Inspector LINTON was 13 talking to the guy in the house... 14 CARSON: Yeah. 15 (background talking...no I found out who is he) 16 WRIGHT: No he found out who he is but we have... 17 (background...I got his name but he's not home) 18 WRIGHT: We found out who he is but he's not home. 19 CARSON: Okay so there's nobody home...are you sure 20 of that? 21 WRIGHT: Yeah and... 22 (I/A background talking) 23 WRIGHT: We got his...are you still there John? 24 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 25 WRIGHT: Yeah we got his name, his number and he's
641 not there. 2 CARSON: Okay okay okay. 3 WRIGHT: Okay. 4 CARSON: Okay so okay that's good, thanks. 5 WRIGHT: Okay hang in there brother. 6 CARSON: Okay thank you. 7 WRIGHT: Okay bye. 8 CARSON: See you. 9 10 End of conversation. 11 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The address, I 13 believe, Commissioner, of that first cottage is 6848 East 14 Parkway Drive, just simply for the record. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And with respect to the cottages 18 along in this area, other than the first cottage, at this 19 point in time now at 10:30 on -- approximately on 20 September the 6th, what if anything, had you -- what 21 instructions, if any, had you given with respect to the 22 other cottages? 23 A: Well, it was my understanding that 24 the cottages were going to be contacted and people 25 advised to stay in their homes. It was a matter of just
651 -- it wasn't an evacuation as opposed to just telling 2 them to stay put. 3 Q: And who was -- who was to do that? 4 A: Well, that would have been handled by 5 the command post from Inspector Linton's position. 6 Q: So, do you know if that -- do you 7 know if that was done on the... 8 A: I don't know how much of it gone 9 done. I -- I -- it's my assumption that it got started 10 but didn't get finished. 11 Q: So that's your assumption but you 12 don't know -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- if one (1) or two (2) or anybody 15 was spoken to? 16 A: I -- I don't know for sure exactly 17 how that worked out. 18 Q: And did you give that instruction to 19 Inspector Linton to notify the people in the cottages? 20 A: I'm not sure if I gave that direction 21 specifically or it was something we had discussed and 22 just agreed that he would take care of that. 23 But in -- in my mind there was certainly 24 an understanding that was going to be addressed. And -- 25 Q: And there's a note although we don't
661 have a telephone call of it in the -- at 22:17 in the 2 scribe note Exhibit -- 3 A: Could I -- could I just take you back 4 to -- to your earlier question for a moment -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- in regards to the -- the factors. 7 The one factor I -- I neglected to -- to discuss was the 8 whole issue of the risk to these cottages and the 9 ramifications of the risk to these cottages. 10 And in particular relating to Mark 11 Wright's meeting with the people at the TOC site earlier 12 in the afternoon and the -- the sense that he received 13 from those people and that they were actually going to 14 march on the Park at that point in time that he had 15 talked them out of that. 16 And it was certainly an issue for me that 17 we understand that very clearly that if -- if any of 18 these cottages were broken into or damaged, that this 19 issue was going to be most difficult to try and address. 20 So I -- I'm sorry I just neglected to add that factor. 21 Q: And why would it be more difficult to 22 address? 23 A: Because quite frankly I don't think I 24 could have imposed any control on the group of people 25 that Mark Wright had met with. They were determined and
671 I think it was his persuasion that convinced them to let 2 the police work with this to -- we're making sure we have 3 the adequate resources to address it. 4 And just stay calm here and -- and he 5 tried to reduce the tension. And I think if -- if the 6 cottages were broken into or damaged in any way, that our 7 credibility would have been absolutely lost and that the 8 cottagers would have taken it into their own hands quite 9 frankly. I think their confidence level was on edge. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Commissioner, 11 perhaps it would be a good time for the morning break. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much. We'll take a morning break. 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 15 for fifteen (15) minutes. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 11:47 a.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 12:06 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, just 23 to take a moment. In my enthusiasm to make my point as 24 effectively as I could, I -- I did something quite 25 unforgivable and which I do regret and I want to
681 apologize to Mr. Millar. 2 I have just the highest regard for his 3 ability as counsel and I do know he's very well prepared 4 and that he's worked harder than -- than any of the rest 5 of us to be ready. That wasn't the point I was trying to 6 make. It was really a rhetorical reference and I -- I 7 regret that. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. 10 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Any my apologies to 11 Mr. Millar for that. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mr. Horton. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Now, Commissioner and Deputy Carson 16 when -- if I could take you to Exhibit 426, which is the 17 scribed notes. And you have your own copy of those 18 scribed notes. It's page 79 at 22:17 hours and there's a 19 reference: 20 "John Carson called Dale Linton 21 regarding evacuation." 22 And I don't know and perhaps you can tell 23 us what you remember about that conversation. We don't 24 have a transcript of it unless it is referring to the 25 conversation that we played at 22:11.
691 A: I -- I suspect it is, sir, because 2 the next phone call is Linton calling Jago (phonetic) 3 residence regarding identifying cottagers. So, he's -- 4 he's made an effort shortly thereafter to do that. So, I 5 suspect that is what that is about. 6 Q: And, do you know where the Jago 7 college -- cottage is or was? 8 A: It's -- it's down near the end. It 9 isn't right at the end, but it's -- it's in close 10 proximity to the end of the... 11 Q: And, the Richardson's? 12 A: Richardson, I don't think lived on 13 Parkway at that time, but I think Richardson was someone 14 who knew most of the people in that area. 15 Q: And then, there's an entrance 22:26 16 hours: 17 "Dale Linton spoke to Judy resident -- 18 Richardson at residence; will call 19 back." 20 Then, 22:28 hours: 21 "Bill Dennis called back 22 Hannahson(phonetic) with names." 23 And, who is, "Hannahson?" 24 A: I was under the impression 25 "Hannahson" was the name of the people in the last
701 cottage. 2 Q: That was my impression, too. The 3 first cottage that -- beside the -- 4 A: Yeah. Yes, yes. 5 Q: -- the sandy parking lot. And then, 6 do you have any information today as to whether or not 7 Mr. Dennis spoke to the Hannahsons? 8 A: I -- I'm not sure. I -- I don't 9 know. 10 Q: Because shortly thereafter there's a 11 -- your call with Mark Wright where Mr. Wright -- 12 Sergeant Wright said there was no one home? 13 A: Right. Now, see, what may have -- 14 may have happened, and this is speculation on my part at 15 best, is that they may have determined information as to 16 where to get a hold of Hannahson even though they weren't 17 there. They may have been elsewhere, but they were able 18 to contact them at, but that's just a guess. 19 Q: Because there's a reference at 22:31 20 in the logger tape -- I mean in the scribe notes: 21 "Dale Linton attempted to call 22 Hannahson residence, no answer." 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And then, it was shortly thereafter 25 that you spoke to Sergeant Wright?
711 A: Correct. 2 Q: Then, there's a note at 22:28 hours: 3 "Bill Dennis advised one (1) arrest has 4 been made." 5 That would be at twenty-eight (28) minutes 6 after 10:00 on September 6th and had any arrests been 7 made at this point in time, Deputy Carson? 8 A: I'm not aware of an arrest at this 9 point. 10 Q: And the... 11 A: I'm not sure where -- where Bill 12 Dennis would have received that information because at 13 this point the crowd management team had -- had not even 14 gone down the road to the parking lot yet. 15 Q: Okay. And at 22:13, there's a 16 transmission. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 19 20 September 6, 1995 21 22:13 22 23 Track # 2213 24 25 All units from Lima Two, all units from Lima Two, cut
721 your radio talk to a minimum, keep your radio talk to a 2 minimum. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And, what was your understanding as 6 to why LIMA 2 was broadcasting this transmission at 7 thirteen (13) minutes after 10:00? 8 A: About keeping talk to a minimum? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Well, as -- as you heard with that 11 trans -- the transmission immediately prior to his 12 transmission, the transmission became cut out and what's 13 likely happening is two (2) officers in close proximity 14 are keying the microphone at the same time which destroys 15 the ability of -- of the one radio to get through. 16 So, what he's saying is basically, unless 17 it's absolutely urgent, you don't talk so that when 18 someone needs the air, it's -- it's available for a 19 transmission. 20 So, that's the difficulty when you have 21 that many radios working in such close proximity of each 22 other. 23 Q: And then at 22:14: 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW)
731 2 September 6, 1995 3 22:14 4 5 Track # 2214 6 7 TAC from CMU. 8 9 TAC from CMU. 10 11 Go ahead CMU I'm Lima Two. 12 13 Lima two from CMU I/A. 14 15 Coming in loud and clear. 16 17 I/A. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And did you recall hearing this 21 transmission at -- on September the 6th? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: And it appears to be a radio check by 24 the CMU? 25 A: That would make sense, yes.
741 Q: And at this point in time, at 2 approximately -- 3 A: And I guess I just need to point out 4 that, like, I don't recall today hearing it. That 5 doesn't mean I didn't hear it. Like I may have been in a 6 position to hear many of those transmissions, but -- but 7 from my recall today, I just, you know, can't say that I 8 in fact heard it or not. 9 Q: Okay. And what were your -- did you 10 give instructions to Staff Sergeant Lacroix in the -- at 11 the MNR parking lot when the CMU was being formed up? 12 Did you discuss with him what he was to 13 do, what you wanted him to do? 14 A: I had a discussion with Lacroix back 15 at the command post in Forest, before I went forward when 16 the team was being ordered to the MNR parking lot for 17 assembly. 18 He was putting his protective gear on at 19 the outside, back end of the command post trailer and 20 while he was putting his gear on, we had a discussion 21 about what the expectations were. 22 And it was very clear to him that his 23 instructions were to take the crowd management team, move 24 into the sandy parking lot and not into the Park, that 25 his task was simply to remove the people with the
751 baseball bats and the subject of all the other issues we 2 had, off the sandy parking lot back to the fence, but 3 they were -- it was clear and I think you'll hear 4 evidence from now Inspector Lacroix that the direction 5 was absolutely clear, he was not to go into the Park. 6 Q: And were there instructions to staff 7 -- then Staff Sergeant Lacroix to establish a checkpoint 8 at or near the sandy parking lot? 9 A: Well that was -- part of the 10 discussion was, hopefully if we clear the parking lot and 11 if the occupiers stay in the parking lot, then we could 12 re-establish the checkpoint on Parkway Road that was 13 closer to the corner than where the TOC site was located? 14 Q: And was that one of the things you 15 wanted him to do? 16 A: Eventually, the first thing was to 17 get the Park clear -- or the parking lot, I'm sorry. 18 Q: All right. And at quarter after -- 19 approximately quarter after 10:00 on September the 6th, 20 the -- had you heard back from the TRU team with respect 21 -- or TRU teams with respect to the sandy parking lot and 22 the kiosk? 23 A: Well there was information coming 24 back. Now, again you need to understand here, in regards 25 to the TRU team operations, it's on a separate radio
761 frequency, totally separate from all other officers. 2 So the command post would not hear it; the 3 only people who would hear it would be TRU team officers 4 and the TOC van for the TRU people. So, the information 5 would be coming back directly to Constable Zupansic 6 (phonetic) who was in the truck and to Staff Sergeant 7 Skinner who was in the truck monitoring the 8 communications. 9 I found myself at the -- at the TRU team 10 truck with Staff Sergeant Skinner and he would be 11 providing the information as he was receiving it. 12 Q: And, could you hear the radio 13 transmissions from the TRU team back to the truck? 14 A: That -- that particular vehicle is 15 equipped with both radio systems for the TRU team 16 transmissions, which is broadcast in a speaker in the 17 truck. So it is audible in the truck, so I would have 18 been able to hear that and also it is equipped with the 19 same radio as the ERT personnel and it was on speaker and 20 I would have been able to hear the transmissions from the 21 ERT officers as well. 22 Q: And at this point in time, do you 23 recall having heard back from TRU as to the kiosk or what 24 was going on in the sandy parking lot? 25 A: I remember being satisfied that there
771 was no issue around sight lines from the kiosk and 2 whether Skinner told me that directly or it was 3 transmissions I overhead, I quite frankly can't tell you 4 which it was, but I remember being satisfied about that 5 and I was certainly of the impression that there was a 6 significant amount of activity occurring in the sandy 7 parking lot, even after the TRU team personnel were in 8 position. 9 Q: And the TRU TOC team -- TOC truck had 10 the capability, as I understand it, to record the 11 communications between the TRU team and the TRU Tactical 12 Operations Centre? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, we don't have any of the 15 communications between the TRU teams that were down East 16 Parkway Drive and the TRU team Tactical Operations 17 Centre? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And why? 20 A: Well, I -- I -- when I was in the 21 truck and I forget the reason why, but the truck stalled. 22 The truck -- the communications system had been running 23 in the back of the vehicle and in order to activate the 24 recording equipment for the TRU team equipment, it 25 requires the operator, as in most normal tape recording-
781 type equipment, where you have to press a "Play" and a 2 "Record" button together in order to activate the record 3 function and it was set to record and was actually 4 performing that function. 5 The truck stalled, then when the -- Staff 6 Sergeant Skinner restarted the truck, as -- as you know, 7 the vehicle goes through the recycling process as -- as 8 you start it up and any interior lights go out 9 momentarily while you start your vehicle. 10 Well, unbeknownst to the operator, the -- 11 when the recorder came back up on power, it came back up 12 on, "Play" and as I understand it, the wheels on the tape 13 were rolling as though it was operating normally, but in 14 fact, he would have had to re-enter the record button; it 15 was only playing, it was not recording. So, it was, for 16 lack of a better term, a finger problem around the record 17 position on the tape recorder when the truck was 18 restarted. 19 Q: And, when did you learn of this 20 explanation, Deputy Carson? 21 A: Oh, not until some time later. We -- 22 we were of the assumption that it had all been recorded. 23 Q: Then, if I could take you to a 24 transmission at 22:19. 25
791 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 September 6, 1995 4 22:19 5 6 Track # 2219 7 8 CMU explanation, threats 9 10 CMU we're going to move down. We're going to move 11 forward. 12 13 Get through here and get out of the way of these trucks 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR 16 Q: At 22:19 this transmission, do you 17 recognize the name -- the person who's speaking? 18 A: It's Lacroix who's giving the 19 commands. 20 Q: And what do you understand were the 21 commands that he gave? 22 A: Oh, it sounds like he's forming the 23 team up, just moving them out past the trucks in the 24 parking lot still. 25 Q: And box formation, what does that
801 refer to? 2 A: That's -- that's the formation he 3 wants them to -- to take as they move up the road. It's 4 just the way they line the officers up in -- in a square. 5 Q: And did you observe the CMU formed up 6 into the box formation in the MNR parking lot? 7 A: They -- they were lined up in columns 8 in the parking lot facing out towards Parkway Drive and 9 as they started to move, I went into the TRU team truck 10 with Staff Sergeant Skinner where I stayed for the 11 duration. 12 And the crowd management team would have 13 moved past the vehicle where I was and I watched them 14 leave. So as -- as this is taking place I'm watching 15 this from the front seat of the TRU team truck. 16 Q: And at this point in time, had you 17 made a decision to proceed with the CMU going to -- to 18 continue sending the CMU down East Parkway Drive? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the next transmission that we 21 have is at 22:22. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 24 25 September 6, 1995
811 22:22 2 3 Track # 2222 4 5 Prisoner van move up. Lights out. 6 7 I/A 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And did you hear that " prisoner van 11 moving up, lights out"? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And what did that signify to you? 14 A: Well they just wanted the vehicle 15 brought up without any lights on it. They didn't want to 16 light up the team obviously. 17 Q: And at 22:24. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 20 21 September 6, 1995 22 23 22:24 24 25 Track # 2224(a)
821 Where's that prison van? 2 3 Coming up I/A now 4 5 The second prisoner van is just leaving the TOC. 6 7 It's coming. 8 9 ... the wrong way. Denny behind me. 10 11 Back her up. Denny 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And were there two (2) prisoner vans, 15 Deputy Carson that you recall? 16 A: I'm pretty sure there were two (2) 17 prisoner vans available but I'm not sure if they brought 18 both vans up or not. 19 Q: Then another transmission at 22:24. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 22 23 September 6, 1995 24 22:24 25
831 Track # 2224(b) 2 3 Mike One to CMU. 4 5 TRU Team Tango, CMU Tango, test. 6 7 That's 10-2. 8 9 Ok, try mine now. Kent you read me? 10 11 Can you read me at all? 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And can you tell us what's happening 15 there, what's your understanding? 16 A: Sounds like there some radio checks 17 going on. 18 Q: Then at 22:27. 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 21 22 September 6, 1995 23 22:27 24 25 Track # 2227
841 Lima One from CMU. We heard a tower call from Chatham, a 2 single I/A tower call. Somebody in the perimetre may 3 have a repeater on. Something's going on here. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, what I'm 5 going to now play is the -- it's a forty (40) minute 6 segment of the march down the road and there's a 7 transcript that we provided you and the Deputy Carson and 8 I've provided it to My Friends some time ago in a laconic 9 form. 10 It's -- this transcript runs from 22:27 11 down to 23:09 and I'm going to play it and -- in it's 12 entirety with one (1) or two (2) stops during the course 13 of the conversation. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED- TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS) 16 17 CHATHAM LOGGER TAPE 0146-TRACK 12 18 "TAC" CHANNEL FOR 06 SEPTEMBER 1995 19 10:27 P.M.-11:10 P.M. 20 (Current Time-10:27) 21 LACROIX: CMU advance slow pace should be tenth 22 (10th) of a k. 23 LACROIX: TOC to CMU we're advancing to within ah 24 three- hundred (300). 25 HEBBLETHWAITE: Wade do you want to hold on for a minute.
851 LACROIX: Okay halt. 2 HEBBLETHWAITE: I just got an idea. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: Do you recognize the voices on the 6 transmission at this point in time? 7 A: I'm afraid I don't. 8 Q: I'm instructed that one is Wade 9 Lacroix and the other is Hepple -- Mr. Hebblethwaite. 10 A: It could be. Hebblethwaite is a 11 sergeant who -- who would be one of the supervisors on 12 that team and Lacroix is the commander of the team. 13 But I suspect as we move in here the 14 voices will be more clear for identification purposes. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 17 18 LACROIX: Okay ah (I/A)...good news they've got 19 rocks and sticks piled up and we all know 20 we can beat that (I/A)...rocks and sticks 21 that's in our Bailiwick. All we have to 22 worry about is little brown stocks and 23 black barrels. Okay we're going to 24 advancing in a moment. Advance. 25 OFFICER: (I/A)...boys.
861 LACROIX: Stay in our pairs whatever you do do not 2 leave your buddy. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And, Deputy Carson, what is your 6 understanding as to what is happening at this point in 7 time? 8 A: They're just moving down the road at 9 this point and approaching the corner, but still on 10 Parkway Drive and obviously they're operating in pairs 11 together and there's just some caution here about making 12 sure they keep an eye on one another. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 15 16 ALPHA: Lima two this is Alpha. Checkpoint the 17 Uniform members have arrived what do what 18 what do you want to do with the two ERT. 19 LIMA 2: Ten-three (10-3) Alpha. 20 LACROIX: Everybody stay off the air unless 21 somebody's hurt up or down or you hear 22 anything any kind of noise...(I/A) strange 23 noise... 24 LACROIX: TOC CMU how do you read. 25 LIMA 2: CMU Lima 2. I'm reading you.
871 LACROIX: Ten-four (10-4). 2 MALE: (I/A) radio static. 3 MALE: (I/A) radio static. 4 OFFICER: (I/A)...I see some lights. 5 MALE: (I/A) radio static. 6 MALE: (/A) radio static...formation...(I/A). 7 SKINNER: CMU ah TAC 1 be advised ah you've been 8 spotted by their forward observers and 9 their forward observers are retreating. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Can you identify who was the person 13 speaking at that point? 14 A: That was Staff Sergeant Skinner who 15 was sitting right beside me in the TRU team truck. 16 Q: And was there a transmission to the 17 TRU team truck at or about this time? 18 A: Information would have come over the 19 TRU team radio and this is being relayed over the ERT 20 team radio to the crowd management team. 21 Q: Now you say information would have 22 been; do you recall the information being transmitted? 23 A: Do I recall today hearing that? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Not specifically.
881 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: Not specifically. But there were a 3 number of transmissions coming back with status of what 4 was happening as the team moved up the road. 5 Q: And can you tell us, today, what you 6 can recall of those transmissions before we proceed? Do 7 you have a recollection of what those transmission are? 8 A: Well there -- there was certainly 9 information that you're going to hear, very shortly, 10 about someone being spotted on a roadway with a stick. 11 At first it was thought to be a firearm. That 12 information clearly came over the TRU team radio, was 13 relayed to the crowd management team. 14 When that was confirmed by the TRU team 15 personnel, then the crowd management team was given the 16 approval to continue to move forward. And then there 17 will be transmissions coming back from the TRU team that 18 they had shot someone and that that person had ran back 19 into the Park. 20 Those -- those transmissions I'm certainly 21 well aware of. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 24 25 LACROIX: (I/A)...to the Centre Pole.
891 LACROIX: Everybody alert stay spread out. 2 LACROIX: Watch vehicle. 3 OFFICER: That's TRU in the vehicle. 4 LACROIX: Halt. 5 LACROIX: (I/A) dressing shields down. 6 LACROIX: TOC to CMU. 7 LACROIX: TOC to CMU. 8 SKINNER: CMU TAC 1 go ahead. 9 LACROIX: TAC 1 CMU two to three hundred (200-300) 10 metres out awaiting instructions. 11 SKINNER: Standby. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Now at this point in time, is the -- 15 we hear the communications between Sergeant Skinner and 16 Staff Sergeant Lacroix. Were the communications flowing 17 back between the TRU tactical operation centre and the 18 CMU? 19 A: I'm not sure if I understand how you 20 mean û- what's happening -- 21 Q: Yeah. Who's in charge of the 22 communications here? 23 A: Oh. Well Skinner is the relay 24 person. 25 Q: Yes.
901 A: In the back of the truck, the TRU 2 team truck is Constable Zupansic who is monitoring only 3 TRU team radio. But in the front of the vehicle Skinner 4 is monitoring both and he's the relay person between TRU 5 and ERT. 6 So as -- as TRU -- I'm sorry, as Skinner 7 provides the direction to ERT, it's on my direction. 8 Q: And ERT being in this case the CMU? 9 A: Yes. I -- I'm sorry, it might be a 10 bit confusing here. 11 Q: And they're now, at this point in the 12 transmission, which for the benefit of My Friends, is...I 13 haven't got the exact -- approximately 22:35 and the TRU 14 team -- the CMU indicates it's two (200) or three hundred 15 (300) metres out from the sandy parking lot? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And on Exhibit 320 -- 427, two (2) to 18 three hundred (300) metres is being indicated by a red 19 line. So it's beyond the -- part of the image that's on 20 the screen? 21 A: I -- I would beg to differ, sir. 22 Q: Okay. Where do you put the team at 23 this point? 24 A: Right in about this area here. From 25 the MNR parking lot to this corner is point seven (.7) of
911 one (1) kilometre, that's seven hundred (700) metres. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: So if they're reporting back that 4 they're approximately three hundred (300) metres out, 5 they're slightly over a halfway to the corner from the 6 sandy -- or from the MNR parking lot. 7 Q: So the -- so I misunderstood. The -- 8 the reference is two (2) to three hundred (300) metres 9 from the -- 10 A: Corner. 11 Q: -- from the corner, right. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: It's just -- this is important. It's 16 just -- checkpoint A-2 is -- you can see where it says, 17 "TRU TOC" on the left-hand side, Deputy Commissioner. 18 And this transmission: 19 "TAC 1 CMU two (2) to three hundred 20 (300) metre out awaiting instructions." 21 Where -- what was your understanding as to 22 where the CMU was located, at this point, on September 23 the 6th? 24 A: It would be in this general area 25 right about here.
921 Q: And two (2) to three hundred (300) 2 metres from... 3 A: From this corner. 4 Q: From the corner of East Parkway Drive 5 and Army Camp Road? 6 A: Right. And just -- if I can help you 7 a little, Lacroix is a former TRU team leader, has -- has 8 worked as a TRU team leader for many, many years and what 9 any TRU team leader will do or -- or part of the standard 10 operations is that before, for example, in a high-risk 11 warrant, they will go to a certain stage, report back and 12 ask for permission to -- to continue. So, he's at that 13 point now, basically waiting for, for lack of a better 14 term, the green light to take over and handle -- handle 15 it from there. 16 Q: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: We're trying to identify on Exhibit 21 437, the -- and we'll do it by 22:35 where Staff Sergeant 22 Lacroix says they're two (2) to three hundred (300) 23 metres out. 24 Then -- and a number "2" would have been 25 marked.
931 Then... 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 4 BELOW) 5 6 LACROIX: (I/A)... from Sierra 1. 7 SKINNER: (I/A)...Sierra I what's going on with the 8 spotlights. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And that is Sergeant Skinner; "CR1 12 what's going on with the spotlights"? 13 A: I think that the message you can 14 hear, I -- I suspect it might be Lacroix asking Skinner 15 what's going on with the spotlights to get the 16 information from the TRU team if they can see what's 17 happening up the road. 18 Q: And what spotlights are being 19 referred to? What was your understanding on September 20 6th? 21 A: Oh that the occupiers had a -- a 22 number of high powered spotlights they were shining 23 around the road. We had some information earlier that 24 the officers, the TRU officers when they were deploying 25 they were dropped off I believe from a suburban vehicle
941 had a number of spotlights shined on them as they worked 2 their way into the bush. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 5 BELOW) 6 7 HEBBLETHWAITE: TOC to CMU anything from Sierra 1 please. 8 HEBBLETHWAITE: TOC from CMU anything to report from 9 Sierra 1 in regards to what spotlights are 10 et cetera. 11 SKINNER: CMU from TAC 1 the spotlights are from the 12 occupants and they are roaming wildly. 13 HEBBLETHWAITE: Is Sierra 1 in position. 14 SKINNER: Standby. 15 SKINNER: CMU to TAC 1 advising Sierra 1 and Sierra 16 2 are not repeat not in position. 17 HEBBLETHWAITE: Copy copy. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: There's no reference on the tape, but 21 did you give an instruction Lacroix had -- Staff Sergeant 22 Lacroix had -- was told to standby, did you give an 23 instruction to proceed? 24 A: I don't believe so. 25
951 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 2 BELOW) 3 4 LACROIX: Advance one (1) hydro pole. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And did you take -- what do you take 8 from that command, "Advance one (1) hydro pole?" 9 A: They're just moving up the road a few 10 feet. 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 14 15 LACROIX: Hold spread out especially Contact Squad 16 from the other squad give yourself a 17 little bit of space. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And what is the reference to, contact 21 squad? 22 A: Well, that would be just relative to 23 their formation. The contact squad is the front -- the 24 officers who are leading the -- the front of the pack. 25 Q: Okay.
961 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 2 BELOW) 3 4 SKINNER: CMU be advised ah party on the road may 5 have a weapon in his hand. 6 DEANE: Tex to CMU person down the road does have 7 a weapon does have a weapon. 8 LACROIX: Okay everybody move split right left split 9 right left split right left split right 10 left everybody split right left take a 11 knee take a knee. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Deputy Carson, the voice on the tape: 15 "CMU be advised a party on road may 16 have a weapon in his hand." 17 Do you recognize that -- did you recognize 18 that voice? 19 A: Yes, that's Skinner. 20 Q: And then, the next transmission was: 21 "Tex to CMU person down the road does 22 have a weapon; does have a weapon." 23 Who -- do you recognize that person? 24 A: Actually, I think it's still Skinner 25 on -- I think it should be, "TAC" to CMU.
971 Q: TAC to CM person? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And the name -- the person... 4 A: It -- it sounds to me like it's still 5 Skinner on the -- the microphone. 6 Q: So that the transcript that 7 identifies it is Mr. Deane, you think is wrong? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And then the command: 10 "Everyone move, split right, left, 11 split right, left, split right, left, 12 right left. Everybody split right, 13 left, take a knee, take a knee." 14 And what is your understanding as to (a) 15 who gave that command and (b) what happened? 16 A: That was Lacroix, and he's getting 17 them off the roadway and -- and down into a defensive 18 position off the side. 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 21 BELOW) 22 23 HEBBLETHWAITE: CMU to TOC we've read that and we've taken 24 cover. 25 HEBBLETHWAITE: TAC CMU confirm one man with weapon long
981 gun. 2 SKINNER: CMU from TAC 1 are you holding your 3 position. 4 HEBBLETHWAITE: TOC yeah ten-four (10-4) CMU is holding 5 position holding position. 6 SKINNER: Ten-four (10-4). 7 SKINNER: Subject is believed to be armed. 8 HEBBLETHWAITE: Copy that one (1) subject armed long gun. 9 SKINNER: Ten-four (10-4). 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Do you recognize the name of the 13 person who's speaking with Sergeant Skinner at this 14 point? 15 A: Yes, it sounds like George 16 Hebblethwaite. 17 Q: Hebblethwaite? And what was his 18 position? 19 A: He was one of the sergeants on the 20 team out of the Mt. Forest area. 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 23 24 SKINNER: CMU ah TAC 1. 25 CMU TAC 1.
991 CMU TAC 1. 2 HEBBLETHWAITE: TAC 1 you're cutting yourself out at the 3 start go ahead CMU. 4 (Current Time - 10:14 p.m.) 5 SKINNER: CMU confirmed the subject has a stick that 6 has been confirmed by Romeo Stick. 7 HEBBLETHWAITE: Copy that CMU copy. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And 'Romeo' refers to what? 11 A: That's one of the TRU team -- teams 12 that are on observation. 13 Q: Okay. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 16 17 HEBBLETHWAITE: TAC 1 DO WE HAVE Sierra In position CMU. 18 SKINNER: Standby. 19 HEBBLETHWAITE: TAC 1 do you have Sierra in position ah 20 key your mike for a second before talking 21 please in this TAC. 22 MALE: (I/A). 23 SKINNER: CMU standby (simultaneous talking). 24 SKINNER: CMU TAC 1 25 CMU TAC 1.
1001 HEBBLETHWAITE: Go ahead. 2 HEBBLETHWAITE: THE COURT: 1 go ahead. 3 SKINNER: Alpha and Sierra 2 can cover your 4 position. 5 SKINNER: CMU TAC 1 do you copy. 6 7 (Current Time - 10:48 p.m.) 8 HEBBLETHWAITE: Copy that copy that we're engaging. 9 LACROIX: (I/A) keep your distance spread out. 10 SKINNER: CMU if you read Sierra 1 is on your left 11 flank. 12 HEBBLETHWAITE: Contact squad back up contact squad back 13 up. 14 LACROIX: Right cover back up a bit. 15 HEBBLETHWAITE: Right cover back up right cover. 16 LACROIX: (I/A) back back CMU. 17 LACROIX: (I/A) TAC to CMU. 18 SKINNER: Go ahead CMU. 19 LACROIX: They're on the ah provincial provincial ah 20 property. 21 SKINNER: Ten-four (10-4) take up a defensive 22 position. 23 LACROIX: Contact squad ah back up slowly. 24 25 (Current Time - 10:54 p.m.)
1011 LACROIX: Shield chatter. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: What, at this point in time, Deputy 5 Carson, what is your understanding as to what had -- what 6 was happening? 7 A: It appears, at this point, that 8 they've moved the crowd management team into the Sandy 9 Parking Lot and that the occupiers have returned into the 10 Provincial Park itself. And there was instruction given 11 to the crowd management team that they take up a 12 defensive position. 13 Q: And who gave -- I see on the -- the 14 transcript it's Sergeant Skinner who is referred to as 15 communicating the order. Who gave that order? 16 A: I did. 17 Q: And what did you expect the CMU to do 18 when you gave the order to take up a defensive position? 19 A: Just take a position back in the 20 Sandy Parking Lot and to wait and see what -- what the 21 reaction to that was. 22 Q: And then, there's a reference from 23 Lacroix at approximately 10:54 p.m., "Shield chatter". 24 And what does that -- did that mean to you on the evening 25 of September the 6th?
1021 A: Shield chatter is the -- crowd 2 management teams carry a shield in their left hand and 3 arm, and the right hand will carry their baton. The 4 shield chatter is rapping the shield with a baton to make 5 noise. It's just a -- a, for lack of a better term, an 6 intimidation effect. 7 Q: And what is the -- what is the 8 purpose of the intimidation effect, as you put it? 9 A: To -- to keep whoever the crowd 10 management team is dealing with, just to provide some 11 psychological impact that they stay away from the crowd 12 management team. 13 Q: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 18 BELOW) 19 20 (Current Time - 10:55 p.m.) 21 HEBBLETHWAITE: TOC from CMU be advised that we're at the 22 perimeter the ah badgers are within the 23 bounds of the park the badgers are in the 24 park over. 25 SKINNER: CMU to TAC 1 that's a ten-four (10-4) ah
1031 request you hold your position. 2 HEBBLETHWAITE: CMU copy that hold position. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: Deputy Carson, the -- the 6 transmission TOC from CMU: 7 "Be advised that we're at the 8 perimeter, the badgers are within the 9 bounds of the Park, the badgers are in 10 the Park, over." 11 Do you recognize who the speaker was? 12 A: I believe it was Lacroix. But it 13 indicates on the transcript as Hebblethwaite but it -- it 14 sounds actually more like Lacroix to me. 15 Q: And the reference "badgers are within 16 the bounds of the Park." what did you understand from 17 that on the evening of September 6th? 18 A: What that means is the occupiers who 19 were in the Sandy Parking Lot have now moved back into 20 the Provincial Park. The term 'badgers' is just a term 21 so they can be understood over the air as to who they're 22 dealing with, so we -- we know which individuals we're 23 talking about on the air. 24 Q: And at this point in time the -- at 25 10:48 on page 6 of the transcript, there's instructions
1041 for the crowd management unit to take up a defensive 2 position, and there's an order from Staff Sergeant 3 Lacroix "Contact squad backup slowly." 4 Then at 10:54 there's an order "Shield 5 chatter" and then at 10:55 the advice that "the badgers 6 are within the bounds of the Park." 7 What is your understanding as to what 8 happened, at this point in time, between the time the 9 crowd management unit was instructed to take a defensive 10 position, and the communication that "The badgers are 11 within the bounds of the Park"? 12 A: Which took place in between? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Not much of anything that the crowd 15 management team is basically static and the occupiers are 16 in the Park and the officers are out in the Sandy Parking 17 Lot. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 20 21 SKINNER: CMU TAC 1 are you in a position of cover. 22 HEBBLETHWAITE: Negative... (I/A) 23 SKINNER: TAC 1 ten-nine (10-9). 24 HEBBLETHWAITE: Negative right now we're out in the open 25 but we can take cover go ahead.
1051 TAC 1: CMU TAC 1 take cover and maintain your 2 position. 3 LACROIX: Back up back up back up to the pavement 4 back to the pavement. 5 LACROIX: Hold up Contact Squad let that left cover 6 catch up. 7 HEBBLETHWAITE: Okay back up to the pavement back up to 8 the pavement. 9 LACROIX: Right cover ah spread out there in the 10 dark spread out to the right. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And what is your understanding, at 14 this point in time, as to what the CMU was doing on the 15 evening of September 6th? 16 A: They had moved back further and drawn 17 back to the -- the entrance to the Sandy Parking Lot 18 where the paved portion of the roadway goes around the 19 corner of Parkway and Army Camp Road. 20 Q: And at this point in time, how many 21 officers were there in the actual CMU? 22 A: I would say there would be at least 23 thirty-two (32) but there could be -- it could've been 24 more than that. 25 Q: And when you say at least thirty-two
1061 (32), why do you say that? 2 A: Well, thirty-two (32) is a minimum 3 complement required. 4 Q: That's two (2) ERT teams? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: With two (2) sergeants -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- and a staff sergeant? 9 A: Right. Now when I say thirty-two 10 (32) that's not with the -- the extra staff sergeant. So 11 it's technically a minimum thirty-three (33) I would -- I 12 would suggest, but -- but there's probably officers 13 there. There's a canine officer there and û- at least 14 one (1). And I'm not sure where the prisoners were with 15 the officers there, so there would be a couple more, so 16 there may have been in the neighbourhood of forty (40) 17 officers in total. 18 Q: And the arrest team? 19 A: Yeah, that -- that would be some of 20 the extra officers. 21 Q: Some of the extra officers? 22 A: Yes. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 25 BELOW)
1071 (Current Time - 10:58 p.m.) 2 3 LACROIX: Get ready for it get ready. 4 LACROIX: Ready ready go (loud) go (loud) 5 LACROIX: Back back back... (I/A) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And Deputy Carson, what is your 9 understanding as to what happened in this exchange that 10 we've just heard? 11 A: My understanding, the occupiers came 12 over -- out of the parking lot over the fence and 13 challenged the officers who were back at the -- taking a 14 defensive position at the corner by the asphalt. The 15 officers were given the order to go, which is, I think 16 the terminology is a -- a, "punch out," to move forward. 17 At that point in time, it's my 18 understanding -- of course that's exactly what it is, is 19 understanding, that they had taken rocks and other 20 missiles and then they came out of the Park and then 21 there was an altercation. 22 Q: And were you receiving communications 23 in the TRU TAC vehicle from the TRU team during this 24 period of time? 25 A: Yes, in fact, sir, if -- if you
1081 notice on one (1) of the transmissions, I'm noted at 2 Skinner's transmission when we're indicating about -- on 3 page 9 where it says: 4 CMU to TAC 1, that's 10-4. Request you 5 hold your position." 6 You will hear other transmissions in the 7 background and that's the TRU team radio coming in at the 8 same time as Skinner's, dealing with the crowd management 9 team. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: So there were simultaneous 12 transmissions occurring here. 13 Q: But during this period of time up to 14 this period of time, which is at approximately eleven 15 o'clock, what trans -- were you receiving transmissions 16 in the TRU team TOC -- from the TRU team that you recall 17 today? 18 A: There -- there were updates coming in 19 from -- from their observation points, yes. 20 Q: And if I could take you to a 21 telephone call 56, which is Tab 58 in the -- excuse me, 22 it's Tab 56, telephone call 58 in the Carson master 23 complete and this is recorded as having been at 22:59:49 24 on the evening of September the 6th. 25
1091 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 4 5 John CARSON and Dale LINTON 6 7 PETERMAN: PETERMAN. 8 CARSON: Hi there, it's John CARSON here, Dale 9 please. 10 PETERMAN: Yeah just a minute (Inspector CARSON). 11 LINTON: Yes John. Hello. 12 CARSON: Dale, John here. 13 LINTON: Yeah. 14 CARSON: Can you hear me okay? 15 LINTON: Yeah. 16 CARSON: Okay ah we've got one 1092 so far here, 17 things are going good. 18 LINTON: Yeah. 19 CARSON: Okay ah I think... 20 (inaudible background radio transmission) 21 CARSON: ...for ah a second TRU Team...you got me? 22 LINTON: All I heard was one 1092 and you were 23 broken. 24 CARSON: Okay, one 1092 everything seems to be 25 going pretty good over there okay.
1101 LINTON: Yeah. 2 CARSON: Ah but I think what you better do is 3 you've going to have to keep an eye on 4 this thing all night, you're going 5 have...I think we better start moving 6 another TRU Team in just simply for backup 7 if these guys get tire or something else 8 happens. 9 LINTON: Okay. 10 CARSON: So do you want to ah brief Tony on that 11 and see if everybody agrees and ah have 12 the other Team prepare to move on down at 13 the first opportunity? 14 LINTON: Okay. 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 LINTON: Probably recommend ah what do you think 17 still the Belleville Team or ah... 18 CARSON: Well...I would suggest Barrie. It's a 19 hell of a lot closer... 20 LINTON: Yeah. 21 CARSON: And I'd feel better if I knew it was two 22 hours away instead of four. 23 LINTON: Yeah, alright. 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 LINTON: Yeah I'll call Tony I've ah I've
1111 already...Wade just called for an 2 ambulance...I just I I briefed Tony about 3 a half hour ago. 4 (background...radio transmissions) 5 LINTON: Okay so I'll ah... 6 CARSON: I I got to go. 7 LINTON: Okay. 8 CARSON: I got to go... 9 10 End of conversation. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And a -- what is a 10-92? 14 A: Oh, a 10-92 is a prisoner. 15 Q: And this is, we're advised, at 16 22:59:49 on the evening of September the 6th. How did 17 you learn that there was a prisoner at that time? 18 A: I would have received that 19 information over the ERT radio. 20 Q: The ERT radio? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And is there a separate radio that -- 23 transmission that we don't have, because I believe that 24 we -- it had been my understanding we had the 25 transmissions from, at least from the CMU.
1121 A: Correct. 2 Q: And would the -- did the ERT team 3 have a separate... 4 A: No, they were operating on a TAC 5 channel which is -- which is one (1) channel for all of 6 their officers. So it should be there in its entirety. 7 Q: And then, Commissioner, I know it's 8 past the lunchbreak but I would like to finish playing 9 this. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Finish what 11 you're doing. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 14 15 (Current Time - 11:02 p.m.) 16 LACROIX: Right contact close it in your going to 17 get caught with this fence behind your 18 back. Right Contact Right. Cover I mean 19 Right cover close to the left. 20 HEBBLETHWAITE: Back em up. 21 LACROIX: Contact Squad back up...(I/A) clear to the 22 road. 23 PRISONER VAN: Lima 2 this is the prisoner van...(I/A). 24 LIMA 2: Confirm do you want an ambulance. 25 PRISONER VAN: Confirmed.
1131 LIMA 2: Lima 1 Lima 2. 2 LIMA 2: Lima 1 Lima 2. 3 LIMA 1: Lima 1 you calling or Lima 2 you calling. 4 LIMA 2: Lima 1 Lima 2 they want an ambulance. 5 6 (Current Time - 11:03 p.m.) 7 MALE: Ten-four (10-4) (I/A)... 8 LACROIX: Shots fired shots fired...(I/A). 9 MALE: (I/A)...yelling (sound of gunfire and 10 revving engine.) 11 MALE: Hold your fire. 12 LIMA 2: Lima 1 Lima 2. 13 LIMA 2: Lima 1 Lima 2. 14 LIMA 1: (/A)...calling. 15 LIMA 2: Lima 1 Lima 2. 16 LIMA 1: Lima 1 go ah Lima 2 go ahead. 17 LIMA 2: Lima 1 have you got an ambulance en route. 18 LIMA 1: Ten-four (10-4) ah do you want it sent 19 down to the TOC. 20 MALE: (A/I). 21 LIMA 2: Yeah okay I I think we've got an ambulance 22 here already I just got to find out where 23 to send it. 24 HEBBLETHWAITE: Lima 2 prisoner van to bring it down here 25 to the CMU.
1141 LIMA 2: The ambulance down to CMU. 2 HEBBLETHWAITE: Ten-four (10-4) bring it here up behind 3 the prisoner van tell it to stay about two 4 hundred (200) yards back. 5 LIMA 2: Ten-four (10-4). 6 LACROIX: (Yelling) back behind the van I want a 7 count back behind the van I want a count. 8 LACROIX: (I/A) form up form them up two lines. 9 ALPHA: Lima 2 this is Alpha we'll escort the van 10 the ambulance down there from our 11 position. 12 LACROIX: Do a count from here behind this ah 13 prisoner van report to me. 14 MALE: Prisoner van report to ah CMU leader. 15 LACROIX: Contact Squad take the front Contact Squad 16 take the front left cover right cover. 17 ALPHA: Lima 2 this is Alpha the ambulance is on 18 the way. 19 SKINNER: Stop the ambulance don't send the 20 ambulance forward. 21 MALE: Ten-four (10-4) got it it's right at Alpha 22 point. 23 LACROIX: TOC from CMU. 24 SKINNER: Go ahead CMU. 25 LACROIX: We ah took gunfire from a car in a bus
1151 tried to run us over we returned fire we 2 have no casualties that I can count for 3 everybody seems to be accounted for. 4 SKINNER: Thanks. 5 CARSON: CMU ah TOCK back off. If you can back off 6 and ah come back to ah the TOC site. 7 LACROIX: Okay back up. 8 CARSON: Back out back out. 9 CMU ah TAC 1 are you ten-four (10-4) on 10 the back out. 11 LACROIX: Ten-four (10-4) we're backing out now 12 covered by TRU. 13 CARSON: Ten-four (10-4) ten-four (10-4). 14 LACROIX: Okay back up back up. 15 LACROIX: Back up. 16 17 (End Time: 11:10 p.m.) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And Deputy Carson, the voice at the 21 end, giving the instructions to back off and come back to 22 the TOC site, do you recognize that voice? 23 A: It's myself. 24 Q: It's yourself? And when did you 25 learn that one of the occupiers had been shot?
1161 A: At 23:09 information came back up 2 through the TRU radio that a Native had been shot and ran 3 into the Park. The way I note it here is: 4 ôAt 23:09, shots fired.ö 5 Then I have: 6 "Native shot, ran into the Park." 7 As I recall it the shots being fired that 8 you heard over the radio and the subsequent transmission 9 that someone had been shot, ran into the Park become 10 almost simultaneous. 11 Q: And what you're referring to is your 12 notes that are part of Exhibit P-410 at page 58? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And the -- on the tape as it's been 15 identified to us, the shots fired occur approximately at 16 11:03 p.m. 17 A: Well it's 11:03 according to the 18 recorder, but I know we've discussed previously that we 19 have about a seven (7) minute, six (6) seven (7) minute 20 differential between our watches and the -- the time 21 clock of the logger recorder. 22 Q: And the shots fired, that you note at 23 23:09, are they the same shots fired that we heard on the 24 recording? 25 A: Yes.
1171 Q: And what did you do when you heard 2 that one of the occupiers had been shot? 3 A: I was sitting in the passenger seat 4 of the TRU team vehicle. I made the note that the Native 5 was shot and ran into the Park. I made that note at that 6 moment and I closed the book up and I fired it into the 7 dash of the truck. 8 Q: And why did you do that, sir? 9 A: I knew that we had just lost control 10 of this event. 11 Q: And when you say you, "knew that we 12 had just lost control of this event," what did you mean; 13 what do you mean by that? 14 A: Well all the issues we were dealing 15 with and trying to contain this situation, wait for the 16 injunction the next morning, try to get some negotiations 17 going, were all going to be for not because at this point 18 in time now with shots fired and by the sounds of it, 19 somebody being struck. 20 This whole event was going to take an 21 absolute right turn and this -- this was a moment in time 22 when this whole event changes and now -- we had been the 23 mediators through all of this for more than two (2) 24 years, now we were going to be the target. 25 Q: And why do you say that, "now we were
1181 going to be the target"? 2 A: Well from this point on the -- the 3 aggression had generally been with the military and there 4 was an issue with the Park. But for the most part, other 5 than the minor altercation we had on September the 4th, 6 from here on, my view was the attention would be turned 7 towards the police as opposed to other agencies or 8 individuals or the Park, generally speaking. 9 That now the focus would be, because of 10 this altercation and the subsequent shooting, that this 11 wasn't about somebody else anymore. 12 Q: It was about the police? 13 A: Correct. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, perhaps 15 -- I know we've gone well beyond the lunch hour but I 16 didn't want to interrupt this segment of the evidence. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this a 18 good point to break? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: This would be a good 20 point for -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's break 22 now. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 24 adjourned until five (5) minutes to 3:00. 25
1191 --- Upon recessing at 1:43 p.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 3:02 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed, please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 7 we begin, I wanted to just alert everyone to a change 8 with respect to next week. I've advised all of the 9 Counsel for all of the Parties. 10 There was some concern that we -- Mr. 11 Sandler wasn't going to be available next week so we were 12 going to put someone else in -- other witnesses in, in 13 place of Deputy Carson if he wasn't finished. The -- Mr. 14 Sandler's commitment -- court commitment -- has been 15 adjourned and so we will proceed in the ordinary course. 16 If we finish Deputy Commissioner Carson this week or next 17 week, we will then proceed to our next witness who will 18 be Inspector Fox. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 Thank you very much, Mr. Millar. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Deputy Commissioner Carson, at 23:09 24 when you wrote in your book, Exhibit 4 -- P-410 at page 25 58 that, "Native shot, ran into Park," what did you know
1201 about the injuries to the person who had been shot, if 2 anything? 3 A: I had no -- I had no information 4 whatsoever on the condition of the individual who had 5 been shot. 6 Q: And when did you learn about the 7 condition of the individual who had been shot? 8 A: It would be a little more than an 9 hour later. 10 Q: Okay. And when you spoke to 11 Inspector Linton at 22:59, and it's the call at Tab 56 of 12 Volume 2 of the transcripts of calls. You say at the top 13 of page 348: 14 "One (1) 10-92. Everything to be -- 15 seems to be going pretty good over 16 there." 17 And I'd asked you what a "10-92" was and 18 that's an arrest. What did you mean, "everything seems 19 to be going pretty good over there?" 20 A: Well, it appeared that one (1) person 21 had been arrested and that -- that was going to be the 22 end of it, that we'd be bringing the crowd management 23 team back to the -- to the TOC and we'd be keeping people 24 on point duty for the duration of the evening. 25 Q: And the call is actually Call 58, but
1211 it's at Tab 56 in the book of calls. And so, you thought 2 that there was one (1) person arrested and that the team 3 would be coming back? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And did you give that order for the 6 team to come back at that point when you were calling -- 7 before you called Inspector Linton? 8 A: Oh, I don't think there'd been any -- 9 no, there had been no direction yet for the team to come 10 back yet. 11 Q: Okay. And what were you -- why 12 hadn't there been a direction to the team to come back at 13 that point? 14 A: I was still waiting for information 15 back from the crowd management team that everything was 16 calm and that the occupiers were back in the Park and 17 that the -- and if -- if that was the case, then the 18 crowd management team would be brought back to the TOC 19 site. 20 Q: Now, if I could -- perhaps we could - 21 - should mark this transcript, Commissioner, it's a 22 transcript of Chatham logger tape 0146-Track 12 and, 23 quote, "TAC" -- T-A-C, close quote, Channel 406, 24 September 1995, 11:27 p.m.-11:10 p.m. as the next 25 exhibit, Exhibit...
1221 THE REGISTRAR: 10:27. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you 3 said 11:27, you meant 10:27. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I meant 10:27 p.m. to 5 11:10 p.m. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 7 right. 8 THE REGISTRAR: That's P-438, Your 9 Honour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-438. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-438: TRANSCRIPTS OF CHATHAM LOGGER TAPE 13 0146-TRACK 12 "TAC" CHANNEL FOR 06 14 SEPTEMBER 1995 10:27PM - 11:10PM 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: There are two (2) indications, Deputy 18 Carson in the transcript that people are back on the 19 Provincial Park property. On page 6, sometime after 20 10:48, there is an indication by Mr. Lacroix that they're 21 on the Provincial property. Do you see that? 22 A: On page 6? 23 Q: Page 6 of the transcript. The "6" is 24 at the bottom of the page. 25 A: My page 6 indicates that's when
1231 they're talking about the stick. 2 Q: The -- well, the page 6 that we 3 marked as an exhibit. It's a long one and it's in front 4 of you. 5 A: Oh, I'm sorry. 6 Q: Someone else gave you that copy of 7 that transcript, not me. 8 A: Sorry. Which -- which tab -- 9 Q: It's not in a tab. We passed it up 10 this morning. I believe -- well, here we'll give you 11 another copy. We used the copy, Deputy Commissioner, 12 that had been provided to us. 13 A: Yes, you're correct. 14 Q: And at that point in time, the 15 occupiers are back on the Provincial property. They're 16 ordered by you, I take it, to take up a defensive 17 position. And why were they not withdrawn at that point? 18 A: Well, at that point we wanted to 19 determine if they're going to stay in the Park, the crowd 20 management team had just arrived. The reaction was they 21 basically went back into the Park. 22 The crowd management team is now 23 defensively in the area of the asphalt from the roadway 24 of Parkway Road itself and waiting to see if there's 25 going to be any altercation or if they're going to stay
1241 in the Park or exactly what they're going -- going to do. 2 Q: Now let me ask you a question. One 3 of the things that you wanted was for the occupiers to 4 stay inside the Park, correct? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And was Wade Lacroix as the CMU 7 leader provided with a bullhorn or any other form of 8 communication to tell the occupiers to stay in the Park? 9 A: He didn't have one, no. 10 Q: And did anyone prior to the crowd 11 management unit being sent down East Parkway Drive, 12 communicate or tell on the evening of September 6th, the 13 occupiers that, If you stay within the Park, nothing's 14 going to happen? 15 A: Well, there was no ability to 16 communicate that message to the occupiers. As you know, 17 we attempted on many occasions to establish some dialogue 18 so we could come to some understanding particularly as we 19 awaited for the injunction process. 20 I think the message was clear the day 21 before the issue in regards to the picnic tables on the 22 threshold and the sandy parking lot where we removed 23 those tables the morning before that there was a clear 24 message that they wouldn't be able to carry on in the 25 sandy parking lot.
1251 When the crowd management came in, I think 2 the message is clear the crowd management team came in, 3 they moved up to the fence but did not go into the Park. 4 They went up to the fence and then they withdrew back to 5 the roadway. 6 I -- I think the actions speak for the 7 expectation. And quite frankly, it's very difficult to 8 carry additional pieces of kits, such as a megaphone. 9 But I think clearly the actions have demonstrated on 10 several occasions of what -- what would be allowed or 11 what the issue really was. 12 Q: Well, did anyone think about the 13 issue of a megaphone on the evening of September 6th when 14 the consideration was being given to send the CMU down 15 the East Parkway Drive? 16 A: Not to my knowledge. 17 Q: Did you think about it? 18 A: No, sir. 19 Q: And the -- did you instruct Sergeant 20 Wright and Marg Eve when they attempted to -- when they 21 went up -- they went down to the Park in the afternoon of 22 September 6th; you recall that? 23 A: Yes, sir, yeah. 24 Q: And did you instruct them to tell the 25 occupiers that, If you stay on the Park side of the
1261 fence, there won't be any problems? 2 A: They weren't giving that specific 3 instruction. 4 Q: And the -- why not? 5 A: What we were trying to do was 6 establish communications and, quite frankly, in hindsight 7 this is a -- ten (10) years later, I guess that's an 8 option that could have been employed, I suppose. 9 What we were trying to do at that time was 10 to get someone to come forward so we could have a 11 discussion, so that we could explain that we were going 12 to be moving forward with an injunction process so they 13 had an ability to understand what we were going to do. 14 We were trying to do that in a face-to- 15 face. With the benefit of hindsight, the option of a 16 megaphone, I guess it could have some value, but I think 17 even still the actions that have taken place, Mark Wright 18 and Marg Eve, they went to the fence -- they didn't go 19 over the fence, they went to the fence. They were viewed 20 there, they -- they were photographed by reporters that 21 that's where they were. 22 The -- the officers that went in and took 23 the picnic tables, they went into the parking lot, they 24 didn't go into the Park. 25 So, clearly time and time again, I would
1271 suggest the -- the behaviour showed that the police 2 weren't going into the Park. And the only time anything 3 occurred is when the occupiers came out of the Park. 4 So, the megaphone may have had some value 5 for us to discuss today, but I'm not sure the message 6 would be any different. 7 Q: And why was it necessary to send the 8 CMU down East Parkway Drive in the dark, at approximately 9 10:30 -- 10:27 they start down the East Parkway Drive? 10 A: Well, quite frankly, if I had my 11 ability to determine the time, I would much rather do it 12 in daylight. I'd much -- be able to do it in a manner 13 when we'd have the opportunity to provide video. 14 I'd like to do it at a time when we could 15 provide a helicopter as an oversight. But clearly in the 16 dark, none of those things were possible. 17 The events occurred that evening in the 18 sequence of events as we've discussed over the last 19 several days, and that part was out of my control. And 20 as you know, I had left that day and when the incidents 21 started with the car being damaged and then Mark Wright 22 coming round the corner and having a bit of an encounter. 23 And then the information comes back from 24 the ERT, quite frankly, I think that we had to -- we had 25 no choice but to deal with the fact of the occupiers were
1281 on that parking lot and we were going to have some 2 challenges there that we had to deal with that evening. 3 Q: And when you say the information that 4 came back from the ERT, can you tell me what information 5 you're referring to at this point in time? 6 A: I'm talking in generalities. The -- 7 the issue of -- of the fence being knocked down and 8 vehicles being driven onto that sandy parking lot; I'm 9 talking about them being out in that parking lot with 10 baseball bats or similar objects that -- you know, they 11 were in the general area along by the beachfront there 12 and also in the proximity of the cottage that's there. 13 And I felt, quite frankly, that we -- we 14 had an obligation to provide some protection to the 15 cottagers there as -- as one (1) of the factors that we 16 needed to consider. And the only way I could see us 17 providing that protection was taking some steps in 18 regards to their behaviour on that parking lot. 19 Q: And had you considered the -- one (1) 20 of the things that I believe that you had been told, was 21 that the parking lot was something that the occupiers 22 felt was part of the Park. 23 Were you told that before? 24 A: That doesn't ring a bell, quite 25 frankly.
1291 Q: You were told that -- you indicated 2 that the -- you were -- had information that the 3 occupiers were going to move out into the Park and into 4 the cottages? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And on the evening of September the 7 6th, the -- one (1) of the pieces of information that you 8 relied on and acted on was the damage to the car? 9 A: That was one (1) of the factors, yes. 10 Q: And that damage to the car was, as I 11 believe you told us, based on what you had been told, was 12 damage to a woman's car caused by baseball bats? 13 A: That was my initial understanding, 14 yes. 15 Q: And were you -- did you -- were you 16 told at 22:44, on the evening of September the 6th, that 17 the damage to the car was as a result of a rock hitting 18 the car? And I'm referring to page 79 of Exhibit 426, 19 the logger notes, the reference at 20 -- the scribe 20 notes, excuse me, at 22:44? 21 A: I wasn't aware of that discussion. 22 Q: And Inspector Linton didn't pass on 23 to you that the information about the car being damaged 24 by baseball bats was incorrect? 25 A: That's right.
1301 Q: And one (1) of the concerns that I 2 think you told us that you had was with respect to fire 3 and the cottages? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you were concerned that the fire 6 was outside the Park in the sandy parking lot; is that 7 correct? 8 A: I was concerned, yes. 9 Q: And what was the source of your 10 information that the fire was outside the Park in the 11 sandy parking lot? 12 A: It would have had to come back from 13 ERT officers. 14 Q: And were you advised that the -- or 15 apprised of the communication between some of the ERT 16 officers and the, either Lima 1 and Lima 2, that the fire 17 was, in fact, inside the Park? 18 A: I don't know if I -- if I did know 19 that or not. 20 Q: And not outside the Park? 21 A: I couldn't tell you for sure. 22 Q: And it was your understanding that 23 the Park was a public road, an access road to the lake? 24 A: The parking lot? 25 Q: I mean the sandy parking lot.
1311 A: Yes. It was either township or 2 county road property, I didn't know at that point. 3 Q: And it's a road open to the public? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the occupiers were members of the 6 public? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And why should -- could the occupiers 9 not be in the sandy parking lot? 10 A: Well, they couldn't be there for an 11 unlawful purpose. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: And I would suggest that people who 14 are there to: A) damage vehicles, the initial vehicle, 15 the threat towards Mark Wright if he didn't get on his 16 way, the fact that they were still out there, that there 17 were vehicles roaring around in a -- in a, I would 18 suggest, unsafe fashion -- 19 Q: Inside the Park? 20 A: No. My understanding is that there 21 were vehicles in the parking lot. I think if you look at 22 -- there was -- it's either in a transcript or in the 23 command post minutes, there's information that -- I 24 believe it's in a transcript from the radio, that the -- 25 there were vehicles running -- the fence was down between
1321 the Park and the parking lot and vehicles were traversing 2 into the sandy parking lot. That was transmitted back to 3 the TOC via ERT officers on observation. 4 Q: And when I asked you about this the 5 other day, this particular call, you said that you 6 hadn't, I believe, hadn't heard the call at 21:32, which 7 I played the last time. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: Do you recall that? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And so, if you hadn't heard the call, 12 where did you get the information that there were cars in 13 the sandy parking lot? 14 A: All I can tell you is, as the best I 15 can remember, I was aware there were cars had gone and 16 forth. But who told me or how I heard it, that's the 17 difficulty with trying to recall of how I learned all of 18 this information quite frankly. 19 Q: And what was the problem if there 20 were cars in the sandy parking lot? 21 A: Well, a car in and of itself isn't an 22 issue; it's the combination of all the issues. The 23 information we had was that the cottages were next. If - 24 - if the individuals are roaring around and do damage to 25 the properties next to the sandy parking lot, then --
1331 then what else, is it the first cottage, the second 2 cottage, the third cottage? 3 At what point do we need to take some 4 steps to ensure they stay back in the Park until the 5 injunction is dealt with. 6 MR. MARK SANDLER: I just request, Mr. 7 Commissioner, that this 21:32 radio transmission be 8 played. Because it talks both about this issue and also 9 about clubs being removed from the trucks. I think it is 10 significant in this line of questioning. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 13 14 September 6, 1995 15 21:32 16 17 Track # 2132 18 19 Lima Two, Oscar One. 20 21 Go ahead Oscar One. 22 23 These vehicles looks like they're over the fence from the 24 park. The members are (unclear) vehicles, looks like 25 they're removing objects from the trunk. Can't see what
1341 it was if it was clubs I/A. 2 3 10-4 Oscar One are you ten four on that Lima One? 4 5 Ten four Lima Two, he just walked out but I'll advise him 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: What did you take from that? 9 A: Well, it -- it appears that there are 10 vehicles in the parking lot and they're removing objects 11 from the trunk. 12 Q: And I believe that the person on the 13 radio indicated that they could not see what it was? 14 A: Correct? 15 Q: And if it was clubs? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: So he didn't know what it was that 18 was in the trunk? 19 A: No. I don't believe he stated it was 20 clubs, he just said it was objects I believe. 21 Q: Play it again. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 24 25 September 6, 1995
1351 21:32 2 3 Track # 2132 4 5 Lima Two, Oscar One. 6 7 Go ahead Oscar One. 8 9 These vehicles looks like they're over the fence from the 10 park. The members are (unclear) vehicles, looks like 11 they're removing objects from the trunk. Can't see what 12 it was if it was clubs I/A. 13 14 10-4 Oscar One are you ten four on that Lima One? 15 16 Ten four Lima Two, he just walked out but I'll advise him 17 18 THE WITNESS: What I hear there is: The 19 fence is torn down they're going right through, the 20 numbers are growing and objects in the trunk, and the 21 last piece I can't discern. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 23 MR. MARK SANDLER: It it's some 24 assistance, I heard objects -- there is a reference to 25 objects. The person doesn't know for sure what they are
1361 but it says clubs or something along those lines. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 4 Q: Our transcript, and it's very 5 difficult to hear this and I appreciate that, but that it 6 said, Can't see what it was, if it was the clubs and then 7 it becomes inaudible so it's at least from the person we 8 had listen to this. 9 And I believe we -- there's a -- at this 10 point in time there's a reference at 21:33 at page 78 of 11 Exhibit 426, the scribe notes. And it refers to reports 12 on radio that it appears fence has been taken down and 13 vehicles travelling freely between Park and parking lot. 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And at this point, you were not in 16 the mobile command unit, you were on your way, I believe, 17 down to the Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot? 18 A: I arrived there at 21:45. It is very 19 conceivable, given the time frames, that I may have 20 overheard that transmission from my car, but I -- I, you 21 know, I can't be certain. 22 Q: And after the shots were fired and 23 you made a note in Exhibit -- excuse me, before I go, if 24 I could take you back to Exhibit P-438, the transcript of 25 the march down the road.
1371 It's the long sheet that we provided -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- you. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Not the short one that -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And if I could take you to the top of 8 page 7 and this is the second communication that the 9 people are within the bounds of the Park. 10 Is that not correct? the badgers are in 11 the Park? 12 A: I believe so, yes. 13 Q: And what -- at this point in time, 14 why were the CMU not ordered to withdraw if, for the 15 second time, the occupiers are in the Park? 16 A: I don't think at this point we're 17 talking about two (2) different times, we're talking 18 about the same time, it's just reported twice. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: It's not a matter of being out of the 21 Park, in the Park, out of the Park, back in the Park. 22 When the CMU arrived, they went back into the Park. 23 The information here is that they are 24 still in the Park -- 25 Q: Okay.
1381 A: So at that point, being they are 2 staying in the Park, the crowd management team was 3 directed to take a defensive position, because they -- 4 they were up near the fence. 5 They had initially gone into the parking 6 lot and moved in -- in that parking lot in proximity of 7 the fence line. And -- 8 Q: How do you know that, sir? 9 A: That's how -- well, that's how I 10 understood it when I asked them, Are you in a position to 11 cover, and they said, No, we're in the open. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: They're in the open parking lot. 14 Q: And so that the -- it was your 15 understanding at the time, back on September the 6th, 16 that the occupiers -- the CMU went into the parking lot, 17 the occupiers went back into the Park, the CMU then were 18 ordered to take up a defensive position? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And then the -- at page 7 at approx - 21 - at 10:58 p.m. and that's Exhibit 438, we see the -- 22 excuse me, at page 6 at 10:54 we see shield chatter, 23 which you've indicated was an intimidation tactic, do you 24 see that? 25 A: Yes, yes.
1391 Q: And then at 10:55 it's reported, 2 "TOC from CMU be advised that we're at 3 the perimeter, the badgers are within 4 the bounds of the Park, the badgers are 5 in the Park, over." 6 And then they were requested to hold their 7 position; do you see that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what was your understanding back 10 on September 6th, when you gave the order for the CMU to 11 hold its position as to where they were at this point in 12 time? 13 A: Well, the information was they were 14 at the perimeter, which means they were in fairly close 15 proximity to the Park fence line. And that's -- that's 16 why I raised the question through Skinner, Are you in a 17 position to cover, because I didn't know exactly where 18 all of the members were and I didn't want them exposed to 19 flying objects. 20 And it was at that point, that information 21 came back they were, in fact, in the open, and they were 22 told to take the position of cover. 23 Q: Perhaps you can explain, at page 6, 24 shortly after 10:00 -- some time after 10:48, they're 25 told to take up a defensive position, the CMU? Do you
1401 see that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Staff Sergeant Lacroix said to -- is 8 reported to have said, Contact squad, back up slowly. 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And what did you understand on 11 September the 6th was happening when you heard this, 12 "Contact squad back up slowly?" 13 A: Well, he -- he's obviously -- 14 obviously ordering one (1) of his squad to -- to move. 15 But I mean, I have no ability to know which number of 16 officers and which position he's directing because I -- 17 I'm not -- I mean, he is my eyes up there. I -- I -- 18 can't, you know, picture exactly where the contact squad 19 is or where this particular number of officers are. 20 So, he's obviously taking the initiative 21 to back the contact squad away from some particular 22 point. I -- I would suggest that he's going to need to 23 explain that because I -- I don't believe I'm in a 24 position to -- to fairly do that. 25 Q: That's fair enough, but I -- I'm in -
1411 - what I want to know is what your understanding was, at 2 the time, as to what was happening? 3 A: Right. Well, he -- he'd been told to 4 take a defensive position, so I -- I -- I suspect he's 5 adjusting the -- the personnel so that they're -- 6 they're in a formation that they can move if -- if they 7 so need to do that. So, they're in their appropriate 8 position for the next manoeuver if there's a need to do 9 that. 10 Q: And I believe you told us that this 11 was the first time that you had used the CMU and used the 12 crowd management unit? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And did you have any knowledge or 15 understanding of when the CMU would use the manoeuver 16 that you called, "a punch-out?" 17 A: That would be up to the TRU -- or the 18 crowd management leader to make that decision, depending 19 on the circumstances they faced. 20 Q: Okay. And when -- on page 8 of 21 Exhibit 438, the long copy, the reference to an ambulance 22 requested by the prisoner van; what was your 23 understanding, if any, on September the 6th, 1995 as to 24 why an ambulance was being requested? 25 A: I didn't know.
1421 Q: You didn't know? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And after the -- you gave the 6 instructions to the crowd management unit to come back to 7 the TOC, and you told us before lunch that you threw your 8 notebook into the dash of the trailer, what did you do 9 next? 10 A: Well, I -- I had to -- I had to 11 simply wait until the crowd management team returned to 12 the TOC site to get the information as to what had taken 13 place. 14 Q: Excuse me, I didn't hear that answer 15 but I'll come back to that. We've heard evidence, Deputy 16 Carson, that the CMU came into the sandy parking lot, 17 went up to the fence line, backed up, then Cecil Bernard 18 George came out into the parking lot. 19 And then there was a movement by the CMU 20 where they overran Cecil Bernard George and then went to 21 the fence line and then retreated again. 22 A: That's my understanding to be 23 accurate. 24 Q: That's your understanding, as well? 25 A: Right.
1431 Q: So that they moved up twice to the 2 fence line? 3 A: Right. See -- because what you -- 4 what you will hear on the -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 6 minute, Mr. Carson, Mr. Orkin has an observation or an 7 objection and -- 8 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, I just 9 question the wording of -- of Commission Counsel on 10 Bernard George came out into the parking lot. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That was his evidence. 12 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: But came out of where? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The evidence of Cecil 14 Bernard George was that he came out of the Park into the 15 parking lot. That was the evidence of Cecil Bernard 16 George. And I had assumed that when he came out that -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's where 18 he came out of. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- it was understood 20 that he came out of the Park. But the evidence of Cecil 21 Bernard George was that he came out of the Ipperwash 22 Provincial Park into the parking lot. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR.
1441 Q: So that's your understanding? 2 A: Yes. And I -- I think if you look at 3 page 8, top of page 8, Lacroix's commands, when he says: 4 "Get ready for it, get ready." 5 What he's doing, he's holding the crowd 6 management back waiting until they get to a point where 7 he's prepared to order the punch out. 8 So the -- as -- as you articulated when 9 Cecil Bernard came forward, they waited until he got to a 10 certain point and then they ordered the -- the manoeuver 11 and that's when they would move forward rapidly. 12 And that is a standard crowd management 13 manoeuver. And by doing that they would make an arrest 14 and move forward and -- and hold the ground to whatever 15 point they had moved forward to. 16 Q: And then withdrew? 17 A: Correct. In fact I -- I would 18 suggest to you they were on the roadway withdrawing up 19 the asphalt roadway when the bus and car exited the 20 Provincial Park. 21 Q: Well, Lacroix says: 22 ôContact -- 23 At page 8: û- squad backup, [inaudible], 24 clear to the road." 25 A: Right. So it's my view they are out
1451 on the highway. 2 Q: Then excuse me, I -- I was -- I 3 didn't hear the answer asked, After you threw your book 4 into the dash what happened next, Deputy Carson; what did 5 you do next? 6 A: Well, I was, quite frankly, helpless 7 to do much else but wait until the crowd management team 8 reported back in with a status report of what had gone 9 on, how many injured people, who's injured, are the 10 injured the occupiers we're dealing with, are the injured 11 police officers or -- or whoever. 12 At that point in time I have absolutely no 13 idea, of all these shots I'd just heard over the radio, 14 as to what the casualties might be. 15 So all I can do at this point is wait for 16 Lacroix or one (1) of the -- one (1) of the supervisors 17 to provide some report and get back to the TOC site so 18 that I'm able to determine a little more of what's going 19 on, so that I'm able to make some decisions of what we do 20 next. 21 Q: And with respect to the shots, how 22 many shots did you hear and over -- when you heard the 23 shots over the radio? 24 A: I -- I couldn't give you a count, but 25 as -- as you've heard this morning, clearly it was
1461 several. 2 Q: And over what period of time? 3 A: Just a -- a very few seconds. And -- 4 and I must tell you, the transmissions in this room do 5 not give -- do justice to the actual audibility of -- of 6 being there because it's clearly far less clear in -- in 7 this copy process that what we hear is -- is much more 8 muffled than -- than the reality of -- of the moment. 9 But there -- but there certainly were several shots that 10 were very clear in my view. 11 Q: And when you say they are muffled in 12 the copying process, could you explain that a little 13 more? I'm not quite sure that I understand. 14 A: Well, you have to appreciate that -- 15 that this event is captured on a logger recorder and I 16 think you're using the logger recorder from the Chatham 17 Comm Centre. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Now you're talking about a process 20 that has -- it goes through the portable radio at the 21 site, it goes back to the TOC, it's repeated up through a 22 tower and through at least one (1) or two (2) microwave 23 hops back to the Chatham Comm Centre. The clarity with 24 which it would have been heard by the officers, including 25 myself, at the scene, would have been much clearer than
1471 the actual taped capture. 2 Q: I -- I understand. Now, you did 3 speak to Mark Wright at approximately 23:09 and it's at - 4 - it's the call 59 at Tab 57? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Perhaps I could just back up for a 9 second. And there's a note that -- we have a note that 10 at 23:03:45 that there is the affirm: 11 ôGunfire or shots fired.ö 12 And then it's at 11:53:06 that it's: 13 ôHold û- 14 The indication comes across as: 15 "Hold your fire." 16 And what I'm referring to, Deputy Carson, 17 is the elapsed time that we've been provided on the tape 18 when I said 11:52:45 down to 11:53:06 and -û as the 19 elapsed time. That would, in my calculation, is 20 approximately twenty-one (21) seconds? 21 A: Sounds like it, yes. 22 Q: And is that -- you said a few 23 seconds, and we can do this -- would you disagree if -- 24 if, in fact, the logger tape -- the elapsed time is -- is 25 twenty-one (21) seconds, that the firing went over
1481 twenty-one (21) seconds? 2 A: It's -- it's possible, but it didn't 3 seem very long. It sounded like the microphone opened up 4 and there was shots being fired and officers yelling. 5 And it didn't last very long, I know that. 6 Q: And at 23:09... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: When Wade Lacroix, as the CMU leader, 11 was down there, the -- did he keep his microphone on 12 continuously; do you recall? 13 A: No. He wouldn't have done that. 14 Q: So that you would hear only when he 15 depressed the -- turned the microphone on? 16 A: Any officer has the ability to 17 activate their mic at any time. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: But the way any of those radio 20 systems work, if you hold one (1) microphone open, then 21 that precludes anyone else from the ability to transmit a 22 message. 23 Q: So that the transmission from the 24 person, it says: 25 "Wade Lacroix [at -- in Exhibit P-438,
1491 page 8 at the bottom] shots fired, 2 shots fired." 3 And there's the sound of gunfire in the 4 back when we listened to that. That would be from Wade 5 Lacroix having his or someone else having their finger on 6 the microphone to keep it open? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And the person who said "Hold your 9 fire", it's described in here as male but I believe that 10 was Wade Lacroix? 11 A: In all likelihood it was, but without 12 some clarity to the sound, I -- I cannot tell you with 13 any certainty. 14 Q: In the normal course of events, who 15 would have given orders to the CMU? 16 A: Well, it would have Lacroix without a 17 doubt. 18 Q: So now we're going to go to 23:09:32. 19 It's Tab 57, it's call 59 on the Carson master list. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 22 23 John CARSON and Mark WRIGHT 24 25 September 6, 1995
1501 TIME: 23:09:32 hours 2 Track 1.wav 3 4 PETERMAN: PETERMAN. 5 CARSON: Yeah Rose, John CARSON here, Dale please. 6 PETERMAN: Yeah just a minute. 7 (background...I'll take it) 8 PETERMAN: (It's for the Inspector.) 9 (Background...yeah I know) 10 WRIGHT: It's Mark. 11 CARSON: Yeah Mark. 12 WRIGHT: Yeah he's on the he's on a call to ah 13 PARKIN to get another T.R.U down. 14 CARSON: Okay the other thing is, tell him to ah 15 talk to Tony I want fifty more men by 16 daylight. 17 WRIGHT: Fifty...5-0? 18 CARSON: 5-0 and I don't care if they're E.R.T., 19 Green or whatever colour. 20 WRIGHT: I got it. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 WRIGHT: I got it. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 WRIGHT: Are we okay did anybody our our guys okay? 25 CARSON: I think we're all okay.
1511 WRIGHT: Okay. 2 CARSON: I think we're all okay they're they're 3 just coming back ah in a minute here but I 4 think we're okay but...I think. 5 WRIGHT: Good. 6 CARSON: One of them are shot. 7 WRIGHT: Okay, well we just got a report of two 8 people shot at 9780 Army Camp Road the 91, 9 911 but it's a cluster fuck there's no 10 such thing as far as I can tell... 11 CARSON: Okay. 12 WRIGHT: But can we I don't know if you're in a 13 position to check, 9780 Army Camp Road. 14 CARSON: Well you'll have to check with Del ah... 15 WRIGHT: Delta or whatever they are. 16 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 17 WRIGHT: Okay we'll do that through here? 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 WRIGHT: Okay I got it, I'll get back to you okay? 20 CARSON: I yeah I'm on my cell okay? 21 WRIGHT: Okay I got it. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 WRIGHT: Okay bye. 24 CARSON: Thanks. 25
1521 End of conversation. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And why were you ordering up another 5 fifty (50) men? 6 A: Well, this whole environment has just 7 changed. And I've got four (4) ERT teams who -- some of 8 them have worked all day and now have worked almost till 9 midnight. And clearly I'm going to have to hold a number 10 of them on -- for a number of more hours. 11 Quite frankly, my resources by daybreak 12 are going to be so fatigued I'm going to have nothing 13 left to refresh these people. I'm going to need fresh 14 resources for morning. 15 Q: And -- and there's a reference, Mr. - 16 - Sergeant Wright says -- you say one (1) of them are 17 shot and then Staff Sergeant Wright says: 18 "Okay, well, we just got a report of 19 two (2) people shot at 9780 Army Camp 20 Road, the 21 9-1-1-." 22 And then he goes on with an obscenity: 23 "There's no such thing, as far as I can 24 tell." 25 And did you know what the address of the
1531 Provincial Park was? 2 A: I had no idea. 3 Q: And do you know today that 9780 Army 4 Camp Road is the Provincial Park? 5 A: I couldn't tell you that with any 6 certainty. 7 Q: And at this point in time you're 8 where when you made this call? 9 A: I'm in the front seat of the TRU team 10 TOC vehicle. 11 Q: And after you made this call, what 12 happened next? 13 A: Well, shortly thereafter the crowd 14 management team comes back to the TOC site. 15 Q: Yes, and then what do you do? 16 A: I meet with Staff Sergeant Lacroix 17 and he's -- he's done a review of his personnel, trying 18 to find out what the injuries are. 19 And we brought the officers together in 20 the parking lot, at the MNR parking lot; had some 21 discussion about the fact that now that this shooting has 22 taken place, is it going to turn into a SIU and a CID 23 investigation, there's a number of steps that have to 24 take place; obviously apprised them they would have some 25 rights to counsel for those who were involved in the
1541 shooting directly. 2 But we still had a job to do; that we had 3 to be mindful that the people who discharged the firearms 4 were going to have deal with securing their weapons in -- 5 in the hours to come, and because we have a crime scene 6 now to deal with. 7 Q: And this was the CMU. Were the TRU 8 team members there as well? 9 A: I don't believe the TRU team officers 10 were back there yet. 11 Q: Okay. And what, if anything, did 12 Staff Sergeant Lacroix tell you as to what happened down 13 the road? 14 A: He indicated to me that they were 15 withdrawing from the area when a car and bus came out of 16 the parking lot and drove into the crowd management team; 17 that some of the officers hit the ditch, ran over to the 18 ditch and on the one (1) side of the road, to the south 19 side depending on how your direction orientation is 20 there. 21 And the bus came down into the -- the 22 ditch area, with some officers up against the fence as 23 the bus went by. 24 He indicated we had taken fire from the 25 bus and that we had returned fire and he identified that
1551 himself and three (3) other ERT personnel had discharged 2 their firearms. 3 Q: Staff Sergeant Lacroix identified 4 himself and three (3) other members of the crowd 5 management unit? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And what did you do then? 8 A: Well, I also spoke with Staff 9 Sergeant Skinner, determined that three (3) TRU team 10 officers had discharged their firearms as well. 11 Q: And who were they? 12 A: They were Constable Klym, Constable 13 Beauchesne and Acting Sergeant Deane. 14 Q: And did you make a note of that in 15 your notebook, one (1) of your notebooks? 16 A: Well, I had made a note after the 17 fact when I got back to the command post. 18 Q: And where do we find that note? 19 A: It's -- it's also in a red spiral 20 binder, similar to the notes at 23:09. Basically, what 21 I've done is I've grabbed a fresh notebook when I arrived 22 back at the command post. 23 Q: And that -- you're referring to, for 24 the benefit of My Friends, a copy of that is Exhibit 410, 25 page 060. And it says:
1561 "0:11 Superintendent Parkin audio --" 2 And then a line: 3 "Klym, Deane, Beauchance." 4 Is that correct? 5 A: Beauchesne. 6 Q: Beauchesne. And what's that refer 7 to? 8 A: It refers to the three (3) officers 9 who were involved in the shooting. 10 Q: But is the -- and we'll come to it, 11 but Sergeant -- Superintendent Parkin and audio? 12 A: Oh, he's asking about audio out of 13 the maintenance shack. 14 Q: Okay, we'll come to that. And then 15 you spoke to Skinner. Did you speak to acting Sergeant 16 Deane or any other of the TRU team members? 17 A: Not directly. I believe they were 18 still on ground at that point. 19 Q: Okay. And when you spoke to 20 Sergeant Skinner, did -- had he spoken, either by radio 21 or some other way, with TRU team members with respect of 22 what they had done and... 23 A: Oh, I'm -- well, I can't 24 specifically speak for him. I'm sure that the 25 information he -- he had in regard to who had discharged
1571 the firearms had been radioed back to him over the TRU 2 radio. 3 Q: And at this point in time, did he 4 tell you who had fired the shot at -- that hit one (1) of 5 the occupiers? 6 A: I'm not sure if I knew which officer 7 had actually struck someone. 8 Q: Then what did you do next? 9 A: I got in my car and I headed back to 10 the -- well, I -- I gave Skinner some direction about 11 putting personnel into the bush area around the TOC site 12 and assisting with the observations for the evening while 13 I went back to Forest to look after further resources for 14 the coming day. 15 Q: And when you say that you put the -- 16 wanted the TRU to go into the bush around the TOC site, 17 why was that, sir? 18 A: We wanted to make sure, if anyone 19 approached the TOC through the wooded area, that there 20 would be officers there to intercept them. 21 Q: Then there's a call, which I believe 22 is you, at approximately 23:24, call number 60. I think 23 we'll have to start it again. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW)
1581 Q: There is no transcript for this call, 2 Deputy Carson. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 5 6 Q: And the voice at 23 -- 24:03, is that 7 you? 8 A: It is. 9 Q: And actually there are two (2) 10 transmissions on that particular one, the first one is 11 with respect to the checkpoints and the move back -- the 12 movement of the checkpoints. And the -- where were the - 13 - you asked, directing that the checkpoints move to as 14 part of this transmission? 15 A: The checkpoints being referred to 16 here were the checkpoints that were developed relative to 17 the 1993 plans that were made in regards to evacuating 18 the military firing ranges. 19 Those checkpoints basically start with a 20 checkpoint at, I believe it's Highway 79 and Northville, 21 and others across through County Road over to Ravenswood. 22 So you have basically a perimeter one (1) concession away 23 from the Army Base. 24 Q: And so perhaps we could point that 25 out on -- we've got the large copy of Exhibit, I think
1591 it's 437 on the screen. The first checkpoint would be at 2 Highway 21 and Northville? 3 A: You're looking at Northville here -- 4 Q: It's Highway -- this is a close up 5 now. So -- 6 A: If you could just leave the map in 7 one place I -- I could point them out if you would. 8 Q: Perhaps we'll go back to the larger 9 map. Great. 10 A: That's much easier, thank you. 11 Highway 21, Northville, another intersection here -- 12 Q: Okay. Just a second. So that at 13 Highway 21 and Northville, it's simply at the 14 intersection where -- is there a name of the -- I'm 15 trying to identify for the purposes of the record, the 16 name of the road that runs into Highway 21 at Northville. 17 A: It's Highway 79. 18 Q: Highway 79? Excuse me. Yes, then? 19 A: South of Junction 79-21. 20 Q: 79-21, I'm sorry. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And the next one? 23 A: This road right here, there would be 24 one (1) there. 25 Q: And so that's at the intersection of?
1601 A: Well, it looks like they're calling 2 it Bruce Scott Road but I don't know what the name is. 3 Q: Okay. But on this map it's the 4 intersection of Northville Road and Bruce Scott Road? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: Okay, yes. 7 A: And the next one would be seventy- 8 nine (79) at the Ravenswood Road. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Then over one (1) more concession. 11 Q: So that would be Jericho Road and 12 Ravensville Road? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Army Camp and Ravenswood. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: This corner here. It might be a 18 gravel road. I'm not sure if we had a checkpoint there 19 or not. I believe maybe not. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: But back here at 21 Highway and 22 right -- 23 Q: And -- 24 A: -- that's the Ravenswood corner. 25 Q: Yes.
1611 A: So what it does, it just -- it simply 2 boxes in that area. 3 Q: And so the checkpoint at Army Camp 4 Road and Highway 21 was moved back? 5 A: Correct. To Ravenswood. 6 Q: Okay. Perhaps it would be the 7 appropriate time for a short break? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Short break. 9 We'll take a short break. 10 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 11 Inquiry will recess for ten (10) minutes. 12 13 --- Upon recessing at 4:05 p.m. 14 --- Upon resuming at 4:22 p.m. 15 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 17 resumed. Please be seated. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, the call 19 -- I've been advised at the break that the time that I 20 gave with respect to the call about the checkpoints being 21 laid out in alternate plans, the 1993 version which I had 22 been provided with a time of 23:24, should be actually 23 23:51. 24 And the call with respect to the 25 checkpoints, Deputy Carson, we have behind you, a map of
1621 the area that sets out the checkpoints as established in 2 the 1993 plan. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And perhaps you could just hold that 5 up. And, was this -- this was provided by the Ontario 6 Provincial Police to us and was this a chart being used 7 at the command centre, the mobile command unit in Forest? 8 A: It was one (1) we had maintained 9 there. This particular map was developed, the 10 checkpoints were developed in 1993 when I was involved 11 with the Military in regards to evacuating the gun 12 range -- 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: -- the rifle ranges. So, in support 15 of that plan, this particular map and checkpoint systems 16 had been developed by myself and maintained in my office 17 in -- in London since '93 and when we moved the command 18 post to Forest, it was put in there. 19 So, some of the people that were involved 20 in the planning from '93 were aware that the checkpoints, 21 as you can see, are back farther, nearly one (1) 22 concession away from the Military Base itself. 23 So, when I refer to the '93 plan, I meant 24 the checkpoints here that were backing away from the 25 Military Base itself.
1631 Q: Okay. And, perhaps, we could mark 2 this chart as the next exhibit; it would be Exhibit P... 3 THE REGISTRAR: 439. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- 439. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-439: MAP OF IPPERWASH, BOSANQUET 7 TOWNSHIP LAMPTON COUNTY WITH 8 OPP 1993 CHECK POINTS MARKED 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And on Exhibit P-439, the checkpoints 12 are given letters, is that correct, sir? 13 A: Yes, they are. 14 Q: And, the checkpoint at Highway 79 and 15 Highway 21 in Northville is checkpoint "H"? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And then, the next checkpoint is... 18 A: "K". 19 Q: "K"? And that's located at the 20 intersection of Highway 79 or... 21 A: Yes, it is 79 and it looks like a 22 small concession road. 23 Q: It's the extension of Bruce Scott 24 Road, is that correct? 25 A: I believe so, yes.
1641 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: So, we'll mark the -- the checkpoint 4 at -- so, it's "H" at Northville and 79, "K" at -- it's 5 Kennedy Road? Is that -- I'm -- I misspoke myself when I 6 said Bruce Scott Road, but it was at Kennedy Road and 7 Highway 79? 8 A: I -- I think that's accurate, Kennedy 9 Road. 10 Q: And then the next one, according to 11 the plan, was at Jericho Road and Ravenswood? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: And the next one is Army Camp Road 15 and Ravenswood. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: Then, the curve at Ravenswood Road 18 where it turns into Ipperwash Road. 19 Q: And then, there's a checkpoint "D" 20 shown at Highway 21 and Thompson Line? 21 A: In fact, we didn't -- I don't believe 22 we used that one, we actually used the one at Ravenswood 23 and 21 instead. 24 Q: Okay. So that there was a checkpoint 25 throughout this period of time at Ravenswood and Highway
1651 21? 2 A: Well, I think it was -- if I 3 remember, we removed -- we moved it back from -- from 21 4 and the Military Base to Ravenswood and 21. 5 Q: Okay. So that the checkpoint "D", 6 which was in the area of -- of the Army Camp Road and 7 Highway 21 was moved to Ravenswood? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: So, we'll call it "D3". 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And if I am correct, we've been 12 provided with the times for the transmission of 23:51 13 with respect to the checkpoints reverting back to the 14 1993 plan. 15 You were making that call from your car, 16 is that correct? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And at that point you were on the way 19 back to the mobile command unit in Forest? 20 A: Yes, I was. 21 Q: And with respect to the call which is 22 call 61, which I will play, which is at 23:59. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 25
1661 September 6, 1995 2 23:59 3 4 Track # 2359 5 6 2403 to the to er, Lima One. 7 8 Yep, go ahead Lima One. 9 10 Consider MTO signs if MTO signs help the guys out at the 11 highway detours. We want to allow those teams 6 and 3 to 12 get some rest. 13 14 That's ten four I copy that will be contacting MTO. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And that was you, Deputy Carson? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And what was the purpose of this 20 call? 21 A: It was to direct some MTO signage we 22 put up at -- on 21 Highway so we could relieve some of 23 the personnel who were on point duty. 24 Q: And when -- what kind of signage, MTO 25 signage?
1671 A: Oh, MTO directory signs, road closed 2 signs, so we could -- so we could move people off and 3 detour them. 4 Q: And so where were the -- where was 5 the -- were the MTO signs put up? 6 A: To tell you the truth, I -- I don't 7 know if they ever arrived or not. 8 Q: Okay. But the intention was to 9 detour -- have a detour where? 10 A: At Raven's Wood and 21 Highway, 11 putting them on the Raven's Wood Road that would take 12 them around to 13 79 Highway then back up to Northville and likewise at 79 14 on 21, so that southbound 21 traffic would go up 79 and 15 could traverse around Raven's Wood Road. 16 Q: Okay. And then at 23:37, it's call 17 number 62 and it's Tab 60 in the list of transcripts, you 18 spoke to Inspector Linton? 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 21 22 Dale LINTON and John CARSON 23 24 September 6, 1995 25 TIME: 23:37:08 hours
1681 Track 3.wav 2 3 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN. 4 (Static...(I/A) the office) 5 PETERMAN: I'm barely picking you up, try it again. 6 CARSON: It's John CARSON here, Dale please. 7 PETERMAN: Yeah just a minute. 8 LINTON: Dale LINTON. 9 CARSON: Yeah Dale, John here. 10 LINTON: Yeah ah I've ah...I've got the ah Barrie 11 TRU Team on route and I've got the Five 12 District ERT. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 LINTON: Now do we need ERT people somebody said 15 fifty people and some of them could be 16 uniform, is that ah... 17 CARSON: Well it doesn't have to be ERT as long as 18 there's fifty uniformed assigned at 19 checkpoint it really doesn't matter if 20 it's ERT or not. 21 LINTON: Okay. 22 CARSON: As long as we have... 23 LINTON: Do you think we'll be safe with uniforms 24 on checkpoints tomorrow? 25 CARSON: .........
1691 LINTON: Hello...hello. 2 CARSON: Hello. 3 LINTON: Hello. 4 CARSON: Can you hear me? 5 LINTON: Are we okay with uniforms on checkpoints 6 tomorrow you think? 7 CARSON: I don't see any reason why not. Can you 8 hear me? 9 LINTON: Yeah just you're broken. 10 CARSON: Okay yeah I don't see any rea it should be 11 okay to have to have uniforms. 12 LINTON: Yeah okay. So I'll I'll continue with the 13 the Five District ERT is ah on their way 14 and the Barrie TRU is on their way, Ovide 15 MERCREDI just called and wanted to ah know 16 if we were going in the Park and we said 17 we were ah discussing issues right now we 18 didn't nobody nobody really said too much 19 to him. 20 CARSON: Okay that's good, where'd he where'd he 21 call from? 22 LINTON: Ah don't know it's a 613 number. 23 CARSON: That's Ottawa. 24 LINTON: Yeah so it's the Ottawa area. 25 CARSON: Okay.
1701 LINTON: But ah Mark talked to him quickly and we 2 said we'd get back to him if we had 3 anything to tell him so... 4 CARSON: Okay...ah do we know anything on the 5 injuries yet? 6 LINTON: Well there's two I guess eh? 7 CARSON: Well I just don't know because...different 8 routes than us here. 9 LINTON: There's two...just a second. 10 (background...two separate people) 11 LINTON: Two people confirmed injured...the one guy 12 has gone in the ambulance. 13 (background...the one guy is (I/A) right...the one the 14 one guy got it and went back (I/A) he's screwed up). 15 LINTON: Another guy went to a residence in Arkona, 16 said he needed an ambulance and apparently 17 he's left now. 18 LINTON: Just a sec. 19 (background...(I/A) but still lives have been threatened) 20 LINTON: (This is the guy that's in the ambulance 21 that's gone?) 22 (Background...he's yeah no the guy that got shot in the 23 chest). 24 LINTON: (Yeah). 25 (background...I think that's the other guy who fucked
1711 off). 2 LINTON: (So Arkona.) 3 (Background...yeah) 4 LINTON: (Who did he say that to) 5 (Inaudible background talking) 6 LINTON: (Yeah). 7 (background...he called the cops ah Luke, Phil and Vince 8 GEORGE their lives are in danger (I/A). 9 LINTON: (Yeah, you're calling them?) 10 (Background...yeah) 11 LINTON: Okay so apparently ah a guy one of the 12 Native guys from inside called the Com 13 Centre and said Vince, Luke and Phil 14 GEORGE'S lives are in danger so Mark's 15 just gone to phone them and alert them to 16 that ah... 17 CARSON: Okay, well... 18 LINTON: And another guy went to a door in Arkona 19 with a gunshot wound, ah wanted an 20 ambulance called and then he left. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 LINTON: So we've got RICHARDSON out trying to find 23 him. 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 LINTON: Ah I think he's in that '70 SS Nova (I/A).
1721 CARSON: Okay. Well the other thing we have to do 2 is ah have somebody start working on ah 3 phone numbers and names for people in 4 residences from the ah checkpoint down to 5 the ah Park...we're going to have to 6 evacuate that area and and ah the trailer 7 park. 8 LINTON: The trailer park and on Parkway as well? 9 CARSON: Yeah. 10 LINTON: Okay we can I got a few numbers there so 11 we on Parkway and then you want to go back 12 as far as the trailer park on Army Camp 13 Road. 14 CARSON: Yeah. 15 LINTON: Okay. So ah we'll just get the phone 16 numbers for now and then ah who's going to 17 do the evacuation, the TRU Team? 18 CARSON: We if they if they make themselves known 19 and turn their lights on we'll come down 20 and escort them out. 21 LINTON: Okay. 22 CARSON: Okay? 23 LINTON: Yeah so we... 24 CARSON: Ah I'll be leaving here and coming back to 25 the Command Post shortly, I just got to
1731 talk to the troops here for a few minutes. 2 LINTON: Okay, we'll start on the numbers then. 3 CARSON: Eh? 4 LINTON: We'll start on...we'll start on the 5 numbers then. 6 CARSON: Ah something too we got to find some food 7 for these guys who worked all day too. 8 LINTON: Yeah. 9 CARSON: So maybe a logistics guy or something 10 could arrange ah to bring in fifteen 11 pizzas or something. 12 LINTON: Yeah I think Bill was already working on 13 it but I'll remind him. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 LINTON: Alright. 16 CARSON: Thank you. 17 LINTON: Bye. 18 CARSON: Bye bye. 19 20 End of Conversation. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Now at this point in time at 23:37 24 where were you, do you recall when you called Inspector 25 Linton, Deputy Carson?
1741 A: It sounds like I was in my car in the 2 parking lot at the MNR TOC site. 3 Q: And at this point in time the -- 4 you're asking about the injuries. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the injuries that -- which 7 injuries are you referring to? 8 A: I was trying to determine to the 9 extent of what injuries had occurred. I still didn't 10 have any sense as to how many people were injured. 11 What I did know was that -- from Lacroix 12 that they had put a number of rounds into the school bus 13 and the car and someone else had ran back into the Park 14 that likely had been hit. 15 So to the degree of the injuries, quite 16 frankly I just -- still scrambling for lack of a better 17 term, trying to determine exactly how many injuries 18 existed. 19 Q: And the discussion that you had with 20 Inspector Linton about uniforms on the checkpoints and he 21 asked the question, page 364: 22 "Do you think we'll be safe with 23 uniforms on checkpoints tomorrow?" 24 And then he goes on: 25 "Are we okay with uniforms on
1751 checkpoints tomorrow you think?" 2 And you respond: 3 "I don't see any reason why not. Can 4 you hear me?" 5 Then: 6 Oh, yeah, I don't see any -- any [I 7 think it should be] reason, it 8 should be okay to have uniforms." 9 And what's that debate about? 10 A: Well, what he's trying to determine 11 is if -- if the request is specific for only ERT trained 12 members or can we have regular uniformed members be 13 deployed to the area? 14 Q: Okay. And then -- 15 A: If I could just -- because what 16 happens here is, we've already used the ERT members from 17 1, 2, 3 and 6 District, which really takes the ERT 18 personnel from literally Tobermory to Windsor. So, the 19 next step of ERT officers is what, in those days, was 5 20 and 7 District, which is the Toronto area and the Barrie 21 area. 22 So, what he's trying to determine -- how 23 far do we have to go to get additional officers so that 24 we can use non-ERT people that assists him somewhat in 25 the logistics of the personnel he can have sent in to
1761 help. 2 Q: And you were looking for personnel to 3 man the checkpoints? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And the -- so, you then, as well, 6 that evening at -- I hesitate to say this, but I believe 7 at around 23:58, spoke to a reporter from the Globe and 8 Mail? 9 A: Apparently I did. 10 Q: And this is at Tab 61. It's call 11 number 64. 12 13 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 14 15 John CARSON and Norris MACDONALD 16 17 September 6, 1995 18 TIME: 23:58:09 hours 19 Track 2.wav 20 21 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN. 22 MACDONALD: yes ah is it inspector PETERMAN is 23 Inspector CARSON there please. 24 PETERMAN: Yes, just a moment. 25 (To background) it's for you.
1771 CARSON: (In background) What line is it. 2 PETERMAN: (to background) Ah two (2). 3 CARSON: John CARSON. 4 MACDONALD: Yes Inspector CARSON my name is Norris 5 MACDONALD I'm a reporter with the Globe 6 and Mail in Toronto. Um we received a 7 phone call just a few minutes ago from 8 Ovide MERCREDI ah. 9 CARSON: Sir I haven't got time to discuss this I 10 am very busy right now and as much as I 11 appreciate your concern I just don't have 12 the time to have this discussion I've got 13 some other more pressing issues than to 14 discuss this matter. 15 MACDONALD: Okay, sir. 16 CARSON: Thank you. 17 18 End of Conversation. 19 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Now, we're told that this call is at 23 23:58:09 and -- at which time you appear to be at the 24 mobile command unit. 25 A: Correct.
1781 Q: And the call that I'm told was made 2 at 23:59 about the MTO signs and was, as we heard, made 3 from your car, but by 23:59 you're back at the mobile 4 command unit? Is that... 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: So, we'll have to figure this out at 7 some other time. 8 A: But -- 9 Q: You made the calls with respect to 10 the MTO signs and the checkpoints before you got back to 11 the mobile command unit? 12 A: But if -- if you recall the one (1) 13 call, I'm not sure if it was the one with the MTO signs 14 if I said I was -- I don't know if I said was leaving or 15 if I was en route, that may have been the one when I was 16 still there. 17 Q: Still... 18 A: At the -- at the TOC site, but 19 there's -- there's at least a seven (7) minute variance 20 between the time clock in the log of the recorder and the 21 watches on the log. 22 Q: No, no, no. I appreciate that. What 23 we're trying to determine, the times that I simply have 24 here, Deputy Carson, are times that were provided as real 25 times of the various communications and not on the log.
1791 A: Right, but I guess my point is here, 2 is that at 23:58 according to the time stamp from the 3 logger, in fact, by command post minutes would have been 4 at least 24:07. So depending on where I was when I 5 transmitted the first message I -- I could have been en 6 route. 7 Q: Oh, I see what you're saying. 8 A: And -- and I don't know I'd have to 9 listen if that one (1) call in regards to the MTO signage 10 occurred while I was -- I made that from the car off the 11 radio. I mean I could have been within minutes of Forest 12 if I made it from the car while I was actually en route. 13 One (1) -- one (1) call was made from that 14 site, was made by cell phone. But the one made by radio 15 I could have been close to -- close to Forest at the time 16 of the transmission. 17 Q: And these calls are referred to in 18 Exhibit 426 or at least some of them at page 81. And 19 that's the call with respect to the injured -- two (2) 20 people being injured and the officers' lives being in 21 danger. 22 And then it's noted in the log in the 23 scribe notes that you arrived back at the command post at 24 two (2) minutes after midnight on the morning of 25 September the 7th.
1801 A: Yes. And in keeping with that time 2 differential, that would give you that about 23:56 by 3 logger stamp time when I arrived according to 0:02 with 4 the minutes. So it is conceivable that within two (2) 5 minutes of my arrival to command post, the gentleman from 6 the media called in. 7 Q: Okay. And then there's -- the note 8 at -- the scribe notes at 00:02 hours refers to the -- 9 can you tell us what that note's about? 10 A: When I arrived back? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Well, he indicates -- well, there was 13 a discussion here: 14 "Dale Linton agreed we are not -- we 15 are to back off to the outer perimeter 16 to ensure we're not sitting ducks 17 inside. We'll control the area for the 18 night and evacuate people." 19 What -- what he's saying there is -- is 20 that we don't want to be back on our checkpoints close by 21 the Military Base or the Park. We don't want to be in a 22 position to take additional fire. 23 So the idea is here, you move the people 24 back where they're clearly out of a firing range of any - 25 -
1811 Q: And there's a note: 2 "Marg Eve doing notifications of 3 evacuations by a 10-21." 4 That's by telephone? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And perhaps we could just throw up 7 Exhibit 437 onto the screen and your instructions were to 8 evacuate the -- which area? The trailer parks on -- can 9 you tell us now what your instructions were? 10 We've heard your instructions on the 11 telephone with Inspector Linton, but explain your -- 12 again using this map, which cottages and trailer parks 13 you wanted evacuated. And perhaps we could just zoom it 14 in and take off some of the -- get you a clear -- great. 15 A: Okay. What -- what we're looking at 16 is the -- wherever it is, the Parkway Drive right here 17 where the MNR parking lot is -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- and where the TOC site is, the 20 residents from there to the corner of Parkway Road and 21 Army Camp -- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: -- and the homes up in this area here 24 where Silver Birch and the other little subdivision 25 exists.
1821 Q: Yes. 2 A: That's -- that's the areas. 3 Q: So you wanted -- so that would have 4 encompassed the -- all of the residences from the MNR 5 parking lot over to Army Camp Road down to Silver Birch 6 cottages? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Is that right? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And that -- Marg Eve was tasked to do 11 that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And do you know how many people she 14 was able to get a hold of? 15 A: I have no idea at all, sir. 16 Q: Then at -- shortly after midnight on 17 September -- the morning of September the 7th, you spoke 18 to Superintendent Parkin, is that correct? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends, 21 this is call number 66. It's Tab 62, Deputy Carson, in 22 the list of transcripts. 23 A: Thank you. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW)
1831 CARSON and PARKIN 2 3 September 7, 1995 4 TIME: 00:02:37 hours 5 Track 3.wav 6 (dialling of phone...ringing in) 7 (inaudible background talking) 8 CARSON: (We we've got that '70 Nova is one of our 9 CARSON: for the guy on the (I/A) there.) 10 (Background...sorry) 11 CARSON: (That '70 Nova is one of our guys in our 12 total the big the big guy, the six foot 13 four guy, '70 red Nova SS.) 14 (Inaudible background talking) 15 CARSON: Yeah I'm trying to get BABBIT and ah he's 16 not answering. 17 TONY: Hello. 18 CARSON: Tony. 19 TONY: Yeah. 20 CARSON: John CARSON. 21 TONY: How are you now? 22 CARSON: I've been a fuck of a lot better. 23 TONY: Yeah. Anybody hit? 24 CARSON: Not our, our guys are all okay. 25 TONY: Yeah.
1841 CARSON: Yeah it was two Natives ah apparently took 2 ah are on their way to the hospital took 3 some shots. 4 TONY: Is that confirmed now? 5 CARSON: Ah one one's in an ambulance and the other 6 one is delivered in a private car headed 7 to ah (I/A). They went to a house over in 8 ah Arkona but the extent of the injuries I 9 don't know. 10 TONY: Okay well we better have somebody attend 11 at the hospital. 12 CARSON: Yeah but that's being well... 13 TONY: Yeah. 14 CARSON: Trying to address some of those issues. 15 TONY: Yeah I know. 16 CARSON: Yeah. 17 TONY: We got one TRU Team coming... 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 TONY: And one ERT Team. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 TONY: Ah (I/A). 22 CARSON: Okay well we went we went we we've went 23 back to plan B remember the ah plan from 24 '93 the checkpoints ah back away from the 25 Military Base and all that.
1851 TONY: Huh huh. 2 CARSON: Ah we got a checkpoint right at ah the ah 3 ah where the TOC is there on on ah Parkway 4 Road, we're going to do evacuate everybody 5 ah from the TOC down to the ah ah beach to 6 where the ah Park is and we're going to 7 evacuate those on ah Army Camp Road as 8 well... and ah ah go back to those other 9 positions and and detour traffic around 21 10 Highway until we can get a handle on what 11 the hell's going on here. 12 TONY: Oh yeah. 13 CARSON: They they tried to mow our our guys down. 14 TONY: Where did this school bus come from? 15 CARSON: Well that that's a school bus they used ah 16 up at... 17 TONY: (I/A). 18 CARSON: Yeah yeah that's the same one. It it came 19 through the fence pushing the ah garbage 20 bin ah side by side with a car and pushed 21 a garbage pin and they went right like our 22 guys had had ah they they wrote the ah ah 23 on that area where we in picnic tables 24 today... 25 TONY: Yes.
1861 CARSON: We went in and moved them back and they 2 went over the fence and no problem and and 3 we ordered them back ah they they barked 4 right out ah to the ah to the pavement and 5 and just ah you know took up ah defensive 6 position. 7 TONY: Right. 8 CARSON: Some of the guys came back over the fence 9 and they went forward and ah scooped one 10 guy and ah next thing you know this ah 11 they they were just going back ah against 12 to a take cover, they were ordered to take 13 cover they were they were actually they 14 were just ah forming up to ah back right 15 up to come back to the TOC and this thing 16 came through the ah the ah fence, hit the 17 ah ah ah garbage dumpster pushed it out 18 with the bus ah a four a four door full 19 sized vehicle right beside it went right 20 through our guys and ah ah the one vehicle 21 the car I believe came right down the 22 fence the guys ordered split left and 23 right. A bunch of guys ran for the fence 24 and they went right through there a couple 25 of our guys were hit and went flying but
1871 they're not seriously in not you know no 2 injuries to any significance they just got 3 some bumps and bruises. But two guys were 4 pinned between the fence and the car and 5 and just just within you know inches of 6 mowing them down and as it as the car ah 7 or as the bus the bus or the car...as one 8 vehicle went by anyway a hand gun comes 9 out the window and fired right into the 10 guys. 11 TONY: A hand gun? 12 CARSON: Yeah. Yeah they they opened fire on our 13 guys, our guys returned fire and the 14 sniper we had ah TRU, TRU ah Sniper Team 15 just you know observing. 16 TONY: Hmm hmm. 17 CARSON: And ah ah snipers opened fire and ah ah a 18 long gun come out of the other vehicle and 19 they ah fired on it from that vehicle as 20 well. 21 TONY: Out of the bus? 22 CARSON: Ah out of both vehicles the car and the 23 bus were both being it ah shooting from. 24 TONY: So the snipers fired? 25 CARSON: Yeah.
1881 TONY: And so then we suspect that the people 2 that were hit would be the people in the 3 car or the bus? 4 CARSON: One of the other yeah, I mean they they 5 just opened fire in return like just you 6 know... 7 TONY: And then they took off. 8 CARSON: Yeah, yeah. 9 TONY: Back into the Park? 10 CARSON: That's right. 11 TONY: And now they're on route to the hospital. 12 CARSON: Yeah. 13 TONY: Where did this 911 come from... 14 CARSON: No idea...Tom now I I just got information 15 that they were in the maintenance shack 16 and used the telephone, now whether you 17 know how how fresh of information that I 18 cause I just walked in here I was I was 19 out ah because of the Comms here, I went 20 down and when the Crowd ah Management ah 21 Unit was moving or going to be deployed, I 22 went down and stayed in the ah with the 23 with the TRU Team leader there. 24 TONY: Yeah. 25 CARSON: While they were doing the cover for the
1891 Crowd Control. 2 TONY: Yeah I think we... 3 CARSON: So... 4 TONY: I think we better get ah uhm some audio 5 picked up. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 TONY: We certainly got enough now. 8 CARSON: Ahhhh... 9 TONY: And I think ah should call them tonight... 10 CARSON: Okay, yeah I'll I'll handle that. 11 TONY: Call call ah call Duty Officer. 12 CARSON: Yeah, well I think they're here. 13 TONY: Oh okay well... 14 CARSON: I'm sure they were working on it earlier 15 this afternoon. 16 TONY: Well then get them whirling the paper. 17 CARSON: Well they were working on it ah I forget 18 the guy's name but I I don't know them 19 personally but ah... 20 TONY: Oh okay. 21 CARSON: Them and Trevor was were at working at 22 this afternoon. 23 TONY: Okay ah who are our officers that did the 24 shooting? 25 CARSON: Uhm well I know LECROIX was one ah but
1901 which which other ah...well he was right 2 in there ah ah but which the other guy in 3 ERT I I couldn't tell you off hand. Uhm 4 the ah ah...I believe it's BEAUCHAINE ah 5 DEAN and CLEM ah were the ah TRU Team 6 shooters. 7 TONY: Okay. Has anybody called SIU? 8 CARSON: Ah I haven't got that far. 9 TONY: No ah it's... 10 CARSON: Ah another thing before before I we get 11 into that ah a press release I just I just 12 got a call here from the the ah GLOBE AND 13 MAIL I just told them ah they got through 14 to me and ah when I realized who it was I 15 just said I'm too busy to talk to you. 16 TONY: Hmm hmm. 17 CARSON: I got a call from Ovide MERCREDI another 18 news media we we've we're screening the 19 phone calls here better now but ah another 20 media guy got through to Dale here but we 21 just told them we're busy. Ah but they're 22 hounding us we called Bob BABBIT out to 23 handle that... 24 TONY: Yeah. 25 CARSON: Ah but we're going to have to say
1911 something. Ah how do you want me to 2 handle that? 3 TONY: You say you got a call from MERCREDI? 4 CARSON: Yeah he he called here...just when the 5 shooting was going on ironically. 6 TONY: Talk did anybody talk to him? 7 CARSON: Ah Mark WRIGHT talked to him very briefly 8 all he said he said you know we're not 9 prepared to discuss anything right now and 10 he what he wanted to know was were we ah 11 we weren't going into the Park were we. 12 TONY: Nerve. 13 CARSON: Yeah, well we we were actually withdrawing 14 from the damn thing when when they came 15 out and charged them. They went back into 16 the Park and that's what well one once 17 they were back in Park I told the guys to 18 back out. 19 TONY: Okay I think three things have got to be 20 done. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 TONY: Number one is that they are on route to 23 the hospital. 24 CARSON: Right. 25 TONY: They may in fact be taking the car that
1921 they were shot in. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 TONY: If that's the case we need that car. 4 CARSON: Okay. Okay. 5 TONY: Ah and ah I doubt there would be any 6 weapons in it that is also a possibility 7 that they may have the guns still in the 8 car. 9 CARSON: Yeah. 10 TONY: So that's got to be done, we got to be 11 down there to interview them and 12 everything in any case. 13 CARSON: Yeah. 14 TONY: Attend to interview them. 15 CARSON: Yeah. 16 TONY: Uhm the officers that did the shooting... 17 CARSON: I'm sorry? 18 TONY: The officers that did the shooting... 19 CARSON: Yes. 20 TONY: We're going to have to get their guns. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 TONY: And give them other guns. 23 CARSON: Alright. 24 TONY: But we're going to need those those guns 25 put aside.
1931 CARSON: Yeah. 2 TONY: And secured somewhere. 3 CARSON: Yeah. 4 TONY: And be able to account for the continuity 5 of that. 6 CARSON: Yeah. Yeah okay. 7 TONY: And a press release ah...don't do anything 8 on the press release till we talk to Media 9 Relations. 10 CARSON: So do you want to do that or do you want 11 me to handle it? 12 TONY: Ah... 13 (inaudible background talking) 14 TONY: We're not going to give anything out right 15 now. 16 CARSON: Well the problem is are we going to 17 confirm that there were shootings? Are we 18 going to confirm... 19 TONY: We're simply saying that there was...are 20 they calling to find out about that. 21 CARSON: Oh fuck they're all over the place yeah 22 there's ah a TV truck there at the 23 checkpoint when I come out. 24 TONY: Ohhh. Oh okay so they're right on the 25 scene.
1941 CARSON: Yeah oh yeah. 2 TONY: Oh okay. 3 CARSON: Like we're screwed that way. 4 TONY: Well I guess there's nothing not too much 5 we can do about that, and...so we're 6 probably going to have to confirm the 7 fact...shots have been fired and they may 8 have heard them. 9 CARSON: Alright I guess guess my only concern is 10 we we probably have a window of 11 opportunity here to kind of set the record 12 as straight as we can before SIU puts the 13 gloves on us. 14 TONY: Well I don't think SIU is going to 15 anything at this time like that situation 16 is still going on and I don't think 17 there's going to be any investigation 18 concluded. 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 TONY: Well that's what I think ah in the in the 21 cool light of day they may come down ah to 22 Forest or something but you know ah...I 23 hope that they're not stupid enough to 24 want to go ah right there right now. 25 CARSON: Yeah.
1951 TONY: But so we can't interfere with that 2 anyway. 3 CARSON: Alright. 4 TONY: And ah...and I guess we better get a hold 5 of CID. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 TONY: So uhm what you should start doing is 8 having Babbit ah prepare a press release. 9 Ah well actually no actually we shouldn't 10 have any press release because once SIU is 11 involved we can't give out a press 12 release...correct? 13 CARSON: Well again like I say there's a window of 14 opportunity here. 15 TONY: Mmmh. 16 CARSON: Like we're we're being hounded by them and 17 like if we don't if we don't at least 18 confirm that I think we're going to be you 19 know looking like egg on our face or 20 trying to say that there was or there 21 wasn't you know not admitting there is 22 something going on and we we're we're now 23 into you know re-routing traffic off of 21 24 Highway until we get a handle on this. 25 Ahhh...
1961 TONY: If what they're asking has any shots been 2 fired we can confirm that shots have been 3 fired. 4 CARSON: Ah okay ah just play devil's advocate here 5 but they're going to ask were shots fired 6 by police or the Natives? Like I would 7 like personally my my opinion ah Tony is 8 that ah ah that our guys ah these vehicles 9 drove drove... 10 (background...one of their...Dudley's dead. Dudley's 11 dead) 12 CARSON: What? 13 (Background...Dudley...he's dead. Trevor's at the 14 hospital 15 he's dead. The other guy Nicholas 16 Cotrelle Cotrelle Trev thinks he's going 17 to live, the other guy we don't know who 18 he is, we're not sure whether he's doing 19 to live or not...) 20 (Background...(I/A) we might have three dead ones there). 21 CARSON: Hear that? 22 TONY: What? 23 CARSON: We got one dead anyway...Dudley, Dudley's 24 dead. 25 TONY: ...oh I got to write this down.
1971 TONY: Dudley. Dudley GEORGE is dead. 2 TONY: GEORGE. 3 CARSON: Yeah. 4 (inaudible background talking) 5 TONY: (I/A) or something. 6 CARSON: No Dudley he's a really ah he's from (I/A) 7 big time ah ah source you know... 8 TONY: He's he's been (I/A) confirmed dead? 9 CARSON: Yeah Trevor's at the hospital. 10 TONY: At the hospital. 11 CARSON: RICHARDSON and Randy... 12 TONY: So is there one wounded? 13 (Background talking...other guy's dead) 14 CARSON: I'm sorry I got just a minute I got two 15 things going here, I'm sorry Tony? 16 TONY: One dead... 17 CARSON: Yeah. 18 TONY: Dudley GEORGE. 19 CARSON: Yeah. 20 TONY: And one wounded? 21 CARSON: One wounded (what's wrong with the third 22 guy you said?) 23 (Background...he's alive) 24 CARSON: (We don't know what his injuries are?) 25 (Background...well just yeah we know his injuries)
1981 CARSON: (So where's he at?) 2 (Background...Strathroy they're all at Strathroy) 3 CARSON: (All three of them.) 4 (Background...all of them) 5 CARSON: Okay all three of them are in Strathroy. 6 TONY: Strathroy okay. 7 CARSON: Trevor's there. 8 TONY: Yeah, has he got has Trevor got somebody 9 with him? 10 CARSON: (Whose with Trevor?) 11 (Background...Trevor, Mark, DEW) 12 CARSON: (How many guys are there?) 13 (Background...I got five, five or six Crime guys there, 14 Randy's going to replace Trevor because 15 Trevor's going to be like a pallbearer to 16 his family tomorrow. 17 CARSON: Okay five there's five five or six crime 18 guys are there. 19 TONY: Okay you better make sure that there's 20 enough there in case a bunch of those 21 Indians go over there and go crazy. 22 CARSON: That's right, well yeah we're going to 23 have that's right cover that. 24 TONY: Yeah and ah...see that(I/A). 25 CARSON: One one of the unknown person we don't
1991 know who he is. 2 TONY: Okay but one's dead. Okay. 3 CARSON: (Whose the other guy?) 4 (Background...don't know we don't know) 5 CARSON: (Well you had three names) 6 (background...I had two I've got Nicholas, Catrel...) 7 CARSON: Catrel. 8 (Background...and Dudley) 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 (background...and that's it I don't know this other guy 11 and I 12 don't know if he's still living, Trevor's 13 going to find out). 14 CARSON: Okay okay well okay. 15 TONY: Okay John... 16 CARSON: Yeah. 17 TONY: Okay, the guys who did the shooting... 18 CARSON: Yeah. 19 TONY: Get them ah isolated somewhere. 20 CARSON: Yeah. 21 TONY: (I/A) 22 CARSON: Yeah. 23 TONY: Get their guns. 24 CARSON: Yeah. 25 TONY: Make sure they're secured.
2001 CARSON: Yeah. 2 TONY: Okay and if they want ah legal 3 representation... 4 CARSON: I've I've already told them I've already 5 suggested that. 6 TONY: Okay, alright that's all (I/A) ah...I'll 7 call ah the Chief... 8 CARSON: Yeah. 9 TONY: Let him know what's going on, ah we'll get 10 a hold of ah CID. 11 CARSON: Hmm hmm. 12 TONY: And ah SIU. 13 CARSON: So you'll you'll handle all that? 14 TONY: Yeah. 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 TONY: Like ahhh...I didn't go back to the office 17 today ah have you got the GHQ the Duty 18 Officer number? 19 CARSON: Ah...the new yes I think I got the new 20 number here. They changed with the move 21 to ah...Orillia (rustling noise). Oh here 22 we go...GHQ Duty Officer...329-6950. 23 TONY: 329-6950. Okay so you do that ah if you 24 get hounded by the press on this or they 25 show up at the hospital you better get
2011 somebody to deal with the media at the 2 hospital. 3 CARSON: Yeah. 4 TONY: And ah confirm only that the fact ah shots 5 were fired... 6 CARSON: Okay. 7 TONY: And uhm...yeah an exchange between police 8 and First Nations persons. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 TONY: Okay? 11 CARSON: Yeah. 12 TONY: And an investigation is being conducted. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 TONY: And that's all for now. 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 TONY: Okay you look after that and I'll get ah 17 back to you. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 TONY: What's your number? 20 CARSON: Ah I'm at 786-1262. 21 TONY: 786-1262. 22 CARSON: Yeah. 23 TONY: Okay. 24 CARSON: Thanks. 25 TONY: Alright.
2021 CARSON: Bye. 2 3 End of Conversation. 4 End of Tape. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And Commissioner, just be -- perhaps 8 before we stop, Deputy Carson, with respect to the 9 transcript and there's just a couple of errors that I 10 picked up in the transcript listening to the tape. 11 At page 373 there's a reference, Tony, the 12 third reference down. And I believe he said "what 13 happens now?" 14 Did you hear that? It's page 373. 15 A: I can tell with any certainty now. I 16 didn't -- I didn't note it as we went through. 17 Q: Okay. Perhaps -- and if you could go 18 to page 378. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the names of the officers, it 21 should be Beauchesne, B-E-A-U-C-H-E-S-N-E? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And Deane with an "E"? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And Klym, K-L-Y-M?
2031 A: That's right. 2 Q: And perhaps that would be a -- oh, 3 excuse me, if we could go to page 385. There's a 4 reference to Carson having been struck out and Tony and I 5 believe that it was you who said Dudley George is dead. 6 Do you recall hearing that? 7 A: I believe it's Parkin who says that. 8 Q: Parkin? Okay. Commissioner, that I 9 think would be an appropriate time to stop for the day. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 11 adjourn until tomorrow morning. What time are we going 12 to start? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 9:00? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At 9:00 or whatever... 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 9:00. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9:00. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll start 19 at 9:00 a.m. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 21 22 (WITNESS RETIRES) 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 25 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday May 31st, at 9:00 a.m.
2041 --- Upon adjourning at 5:06 p.m. 2 3 4 5 6 Certified Correct 7 8 9 10 _____________________ 11 Dustin Warnock 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25