1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 26th, 2006 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 Amanda Rogers ) (np) Student-at-law 16 17 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 18 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 19 Kevin Scullion ) 20 21 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 22 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 23 Colleen Johnson ) 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 5 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 6 7 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 8 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 9 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 10 11 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 12 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 13 Jennifer McAleer ) 14 15 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 16 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 17 18 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 19 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np) Marcel Beaubien 3 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 4 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 5 Trevor Hinnegan ) 6 7 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 8 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 9 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 10 11 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 12 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 13 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 14 Ian McGilp ) (np) 15 Annie Leeks ) (np) 16 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 17 Robyn Trask ) (np) 18 Caroline Swerdlyk ) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 Opening Comments 10 5 6 JAMES ANDREW IRVINE, Resumed 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Falconer 13 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 77 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 121 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Colleen Johnson 147 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 157 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 164 13 14 JOHN EDWARD SLOMER, Sworn 15 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 178 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 342 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 CORRECTION TO EXHIBIT P-1606: 4 Black and white copy of pin with Kenneth 5 Deane's OPP identification number and TRU 6 symbol on the pin. 7 P-1607 Transcript of Track number 2137, 8 September 06, 1995, 21:37 hrs; 9 TRU, ERT, Tex. 10 10 P-1608 Colour copy of pin with Kenneth Deane's 11 OPP identification number and TRU symbol 12 on the pin. 23 13 P-1609 Pin with Kenneth Deane's OPP 14 identification number and TRU symbol 15 on the pin. 23 16 P-1610 Document Number 2005564. Resume of J. 17 Edward (Ted) Slomer. 179 18 P-1611 Document Number 3000737. OPP Academy, 19 TRU Training Course, Course Training 20 Standard, April 11, 1988. 184 21 P-1612 Document Number 2003877. Typed and 22 handwritten OPP Interview of John Edward 23 Slomer by Det. Cst. Mark Dew and typed 24 observations re. Cecil Bernard George's 25 injuries, June 29, 1997. 211


1 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1613 Document Number 1004976. R. v Warren 4 Anthony George, Examination-in-chief, 5 Cross-examination and Re-examination 6 of Witness John Edward (Ted) Slomer; 7 transcript pages 111-126, October 03, 8 1997. 304 9 P-1614 Document Number 5000059. Interview of 10 Edward Slomer by Detective Armstrong, 11 March 11, 2003 319 12 P-1615 Document Number 1005184. SIU Follow 13 Up Report Re. Slomer, December 28, 14 1997. 327 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin I 11 would like to mark a copy of the transcript that I read 12 into the record yesterday of the call at 21:37 if I could 13 as the next exhibit? It's -- 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1607, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1607: Transcript of Track number 17 2137, September 06, 1995, 18 21:37 hrs; TRU, ERT, Tex. 19 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 Thank you. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And that's it I guess. 24 Mr. Alexander's up. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.


1 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, I 2 can advise that I will be switching positions with Mr. 3 Falconer for this Witness. So Mr. Falconer will be going 4 first and I'll be going last. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 6 7 JAMES ANDREW IRVINE, Resumes 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 morning, Mr. Falconer. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Good morning, Mr. 14 Commissioner. 15 Mr. Commissioner, I was just having 16 discussions with Mr. Rosenthal and Ms. Esmonde and 17 there's a matter I want to put on the record prior to 18 commencing my cross-examination of Sergeant Irvine. 19 Specifically, I provided by way of 20 document notice a photo of a pin that Mr. Millar asked 21 questions about yesterday at the end of the day. I am 22 seeking to simply to do this, to put on the record that 23 we're respectfully requesting that you take into account 24 the existence of the pin that was acknowledged by the 25 Witness yesterday at the end of the day; that is, he saw


1 it on other officers. He said several other officers, 2 then he said other people. 3 I'm asking you take into account, Mr. 4 Commissioner, the existence of that evidence, that that 5 pin is out there and exists, 1. And 2 the fact that Mr. 6 Roland indicated to you on the record on May 23rd that 7 you had everything, that you had all the memorabilia and 8 that he knew of nothing else. 9 I'm asking you to take into account those 10 two (2) things in terms of your determinations on our 11 motion of May 23rd. When I argued the motion I did -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- not know about 14 the pin so you know, Mr. Commissioner -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I'm not -- 17 there's no slight of hand here. I didn't learn about the 18 -- the issue until late that night. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: But the bottom line 21 is that we don't have everything; that is proof positive 22 we don't have everything. And I'm not saying Mr. Roland 23 knew about it and should have given it to us, I'm simply 24 saying that we have proof positive that we don't have 25 everything and I'm asking you to take that into account


1 in terms of the matter that you've reserved on with 2 respect. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Falconer. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 7 Q: Sergeant Irvine, good morning. My 8 name is Julian Falconer and I represent Aboriginal Legal 9 Services of Toronto. 10 A: Good morning, sir. 11 Q: Sergeant Irvine, I was with great 12 interest reviewing the transcript of your evidence 13 yesterday because I -- I was in court, but -- and I have 14 some questions that are in fairly narrow areas. So I 15 don't expect to be too long with you, sir. 16 What I wanted to ask you first about, is 17 it's apparent from looking at your resume and -- and your 18 evidence, that you have done some teaching in one fashion 19 or another at Ontario Police College; is that correct? 20 Some training? 21 A: At the Ontario Police College, no 22 teaching. I've been a student there on many courses. 23 Q: Oh, all right. Did you do any kind 24 of training of -- of new recruits anywhere else other 25 than Ontario Police College?


1 A: Actually let me back off on that. As 2 a member of the Explosive Disposal Unit, I've done 3 presentations but I wouldn't call it teaching at the 4 Ontario Police College. So the -- the new recruits from 5 all over Ontario would be given a -- an idea I think it 6 is of explosives, how dangerous they are, that sort of 7 thing. That would be the limit to my -- 8 Q: Is that a form of training or? 9 A: We don't teach them and test and 10 evaluate them. We basically just present how dangerous 11 bombs can be and basically call the Bomb Squad. That's a 12 quick encaps -- encapsulation. 13 Q: Leaving aside Ontario Police College, 14 could you just for me, agree or -- or do you confirm that 15 you did or have given some training in the area for 16 example of sniper expertise, et cetera? Have you done 17 that with recruits? 18 A: With recruits, no. With TRU team 19 officers who are becoming snipers, yes. 20 Q: All right. So is that where your 21 training -- is that where your expertise or the 22 experience you have in training exists in training 23 officers that are about to become TRU officers? 24 A: Generally TRU but I've also done some 25 instruction at the US Army Mountain Warfare School --


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- as an assistant instructor. 3 Q: Now there's a -- a title that was 4 referred to by Officer Cossitt, Coach Officer. Have you 5 ever been a coach officer? 6 A: By the OPP's uniform definition of 7 training another new constable, no. But within the TRU 8 team often times I would have one of the new people come 9 and work with me. 10 The role of snipers actually interesting 11 in that respect in that we are on the, not necessarily 12 the outside, but we get to watch a good part of what is 13 going on on the call. So if the new person doesn't quite 14 understand what's going on, I'm able to explain to him 15 what -- what -- what has changed or what's slightly 16 different because every call is slightly different. 17 So a coach of new TRU officers I guess, 18 yes. 19 Q: Is it your experience when providing 20 direction to someone new to an area such as potential TRU 21 team candidates, that it's easier to teach them than 22 people who have been on the job for years as TRU team 23 members? Is that your experience? 24 A: I'm going to ask you to re -- say 25 that again please.


1 Q: Fair enough. There's scads of 2 literature on this, but the bottom line is, do you agree 3 with me that someone coming into a program is more easy 4 to formulate in terms of their methodologies and 5 behaviours than someone that's been at it for years? 6 A: No. That -- that's very much 7 dependent on the individual. 8 Q: Okay. So it's not your experience 9 that, for example, people who are new to an area are 10 easier or more impressionable than people who have been 11 at it for years? That's not your experience? 12 A: Some people are easier and some 13 people have -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- habits I guess, that -- you have 16 to change. 17 Q: In terms of responsibilities that 18 officers carry, that is more senior officers in the ranks 19 of the OPP relative to what I might call rookies or 20 officers of less experience, would you agree with me that 21 there's a -- a responsibility on the part of senior 22 officers or more senior officers to provide a good 23 example by way of conduct and behaviour to more junior 24 officers, that that's important? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: You -- you have to think about that? 4 A: No, I'm just trying to -- to phrase 5 or -- or to give an example. And one (1) of the credos 6 that I like to use is to set the example, be the example. 7 So that would be consistent with what 8 you're saying that -- 9 Q: Fair enough. 10 A: -- be a good role model and people 11 will follow in that stead. 12 Q: And the idea of being a good role 13 model is that, in particular, younger officers need 14 examples to work by in terms of their years down the 15 road; would you agree? 16 A: Yes, I -- I think that lot of 17 officers will pick up the best points of all the people 18 that they've seen and worked with and I -- I certainly 19 hope that by giving good examples and good leadership 20 that those officers will pick up those good traits and -- 21 and basically make themselves who they are by that. 22 Q: Would you also agree with me that 23 like any organization who -- where team building is 24 important it -- there some importance to fitting into 25 the team as you are a young officer and become older?


1 There is some importance to fitting in with the group of 2 officers around you, to be part of the team; would you 3 agree with that? 4 A: Basically a person that can't do the 5 job that the team does, doesn't belong there. In fact 6 that person becomes a liability in that if they don't 7 understand the danger or do their job properly people 8 could get killed. 9 Q: And in addition to being able to do 10 your job, that is the actual technical aspects of doing 11 your job, it's also important to foster a team 12 environment, isn't it? 13 A: Well, that's part of doing the job. 14 Q: Sure, because especially in, for 15 example, the TRU Team it's important because you rely on 16 each other literally for your -- your lives, don't you? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And so part of the TRU Team training 19 is team building, yes? 20 A: Yes, 21 Q: And building of trust? 22 A: Trust, definitely. 23 Q: And so someone coming into a TRU Team 24 or indeed someone coming into the OPP generally, they 25 want to become part of the team; that's the idea, isn't


1 it? 2 A: Well, we're certainly not forcing 3 that person to come in. 4 Q: No, I didn't say you were. I just 5 pointed -- your experience with young officers, they want 6 to fit into the team; isn't that fair? 7 A: I can think of some examples of 8 people that haven't but, yes, generally they do, yeah. 9 Q: They do. And they're -- in -- in a 10 kind of way, and I -- I don't want to overgeneralize, 11 they're kind of like young pups. You've got to take the 12 young pup and you've got to impress upon them what a good 13 example is, right? 14 A: Again we -- we do get some senior 15 people that are ex-military and so on that have actually 16 had a full life even before they started -- 17 Q: Sure. 18 A: -- so I can't go with the young pups. 19 But, yes, to set the example; this is the way to do 20 things and I'm not going to say "buy in" but to have to - 21 - to understand and to be part of that. 22 Q: Would you agree with me that that 23 reality, that sort of state of mind that the people have 24 coming in makes it doubly important that whatever 25 examples are set for them are constructive and helpful


1 examples in their profession; that -- that there's an 2 important obligation on senior officers given that state 3 of mind of -- of new people, there's a higher obligation 4 on senior officer to make sure that the examples they're 5 giving are good ones, constructive ones, and helpful 6 ones, agreed? 7 A: That makes sense, yes. 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: If the person doesn't understand why 10 things are done that way, they are obliged to ask, Why do 11 we do it this particular way, because there's a reason 12 for doing things certain ways. 13 Q: Sure. Now, in your experience you -- 14 you gave some testimony yesterday about having seen the 15 pin before. You -- you gave some evidence to Mr. Millar 16 about having seen the pin which is a gold coloured pin 17 which is a TRU symbol with the badge number of Ken Deane 18 on the top of that pin. 19 You gave some evidence that you'd seen it 20 on different people; yes? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And your evidence... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: A brief indulgence. Mr. Millar and I 2 are going to play with the computer for one (1) second. 3 Okay. Well, he's faster than I am. 4 That's exactly what I was asking you for. 5 That is the -- the picture of the pin. 6 Now, you said you saw that on -- first of all you said -- 7 this is a coloured picture of the pin. 8 And what I'm going to ask, so I don't 9 forget, I'm going to ask that this be made an exhibit as 10 well. Mr. Millar made the black and white. If this 11 could be made the next exhibit on the proceedings. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. I have no 13 objection. We'll -- we'll not be able to -- this will be 14 a -- we can obtain a colour copy next week if we simply 15 mark the -- I can print out a black and white copy at the 16 break and we'll mark -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Switch a 18 coloured copy next week. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But we'll switch it 20 for the colour copy next week. 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's fair. And I 22 should indicate that because the -- one (1) of the pins 23 is in my office and I'm going to give it to the 24 Commission as soon as I get to Toronto and return. 25 And when I do that, I'm just putting on


1 the record and my respectful suggestion is it simply be 2 made an exhibit and we move on. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: So I just don't 5 want to mess up the record on this, but I do want you to 6 know that I'm perfectly content to provide it to the 7 Commission as soon as I get back to Toronto and get it. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we'll 9 be able to do it in Toronto. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. Well, why don't 11 we -- why don't we do this: we'll mark the colour copy 12 of the pin as an exhibit, if Mr. -- then we'll reserve a 13 number for the actual pin now and -- and -- so that it's 14 -- it's in the proper sequence. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. Now you 18 said -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 20 to tell us what that number is now? 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1608 would be the 22 coloured copy of the pin and reserve P-1609 for the 23 actual pin. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1608: Colour copy of pin with 2 Kenneth Deane's OPP 3 identification number and TRU 4 symbol on the pin. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1609: Pin with Kenneth Deane's OPP 7 identification number and TRU 8 symbol on the pin. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 11 Q: Now, looking at P-1608, your 12 testimony yesterday, to be fair to you, you said two (2) 13 things; first of all, you said that you saw several 14 officers wearing it. 15 That's what you said yesterday, correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: But then you said, Well, I saw a lot 18 of people, officers and non-officers wearing it. You 19 said that, too. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You remember saying that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And so it's fair to say, 24 having said that you saw several officers, but also 25 saying that you saw a lot of people, that it may well


1 have been more than several officers that you saw wearing 2 it, you just don't remember; is that right? 3 A: I couldn't give you a count of -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- the people. 6 Q: But it was certainly more than one 7 (1) or two (2) police officers? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Now the other thing I 10 wanted to understand is, have you seen in respect of a -- 11 of a police officer in the discharge of their duties -- 12 that wasn't a fallen officer; I'm not talking about 13 someone who died, all right? 14 But have you ever seen this kind of thing 15 before, a commemorative pin, a form of memorabilia to an 16 officer and their badge number distributed in this 17 fashion. 18 Have you ever seen this before? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Sorry? 21 A: No, I haven't. 22 Q: Okay. And so I take it that in terms 23 of this particular item, you understood it as a means of, 24 in essence, providing support to Ken Deane; that was your 25 evidence yesterday, yes?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you understood it as that when 3 you saw it on other people? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I take it you inferred from it, 6 when you saw it -- and you're one of the officers who 7 served with Ken Deane on the Ipperwash matter, yes? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So you took it as a sign of support 10 for Ken Deane in respect of how he discharged his duties 11 at Ipperwash Provincial Park on September 6th, 1995? 12 A: No. I'm going to disagree with you 13 there. Not how he discharged his duties then, and Ken 14 Deane the person that I had worked with. 15 Q: Sorry? 16 A: I had worked with Ken Deane since 17 1989. 18 Q: Oh, okay. So you knew him more than 19 simply that evening of September 6th, 1995? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And are you saying that you knew him 22 more than as a professional? 23 In other words -- 24 A: Well, we probably -- 25 Q: -- was your relation --


1 A: -- had a few beers together, but it 2 was basically a work relationship. 3 Q: All right. But he was your friend? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And my condolences, sir, 6 on his passing. In respect of -- and I have to ask you 7 these questions and I don't mean disrespect to his 8 memory, sir, in asking you these questions, but we all 9 have to walk that line. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: In respect, though, of this -- this 12 particular pin, there was no doubt in your mind when you 13 saw it, that the reason the pin had been created was as a 14 sign of support for Ken Deane because of what Ken Deane 15 was going through due to his involvement at Ipperwash, 16 true? 17 A: I feel like I'm being pigeon-holed 18 here. It seemed -- 19 Q: Well, it's called cross-examination. 20 A: Oh, okay. 21 Q: Go ahead. 22 A: The -- the pin showed up around the 23 time of the appeal, and I -- I can't remember what month, 24 year even, but it was a -- I don't know, I -- I guess, 25 supporting Ken's appeal process.


1 Q: All right. And I can tell you that 2 the Ontario Court of Appeal ruled on Ken Deane's case on 3 February 18th, 2000; first of all, that's one (1) piece 4 of fact. And I -- I just want to give you several pieces 5 of information that I'm going to put to you in order to 6 try to help you with your memory. 7 Secondly, I can advise you that it is my 8 information that that pin was received by a police 9 officer who was part of the March 3rd, 2000 graduating 10 class of the Ontario Provincial Police. 11 And he received that pin in the three (3) 12 weeks prior -- the three (3) week period prior to 13 graduating while at Orillia, all right. 14 That -- that's information for you to -- 15 to have. It's not information under oath before the 16 Commissioner; it's my information and I'm using it to try 17 to twig your memory, all right? 18 A: Okay. But that's news to me. 19 Q: All right. And -- but do you have 20 any reason to -- in other words, having said it's news to 21 you, is there anything that you know of that would tell 22 you, Hey, that's wrong? 23 Is -- is there anything about that that 24 would say to you, that can't be right? 25 A: I know nothing of the circumstances.


1 Q: Okay. And in asking you that, what I 2 would like to know though is this: Would you agree with 3 me that if you're right, that what you took from the pin 4 that it was supporting Ken Deane in the appeal process, 5 that what you took from the pin was, Ken Deane had been 6 convicted of criminal negligence causing death in 7 relation of the death of Dudley George, yes? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that fellow officers were 10 distributing and wearing the pin as a means of supporting 11 his effort to overturn that conviction, correct? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 13 Jones...? 14 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 15 think it's probably helpful, and I do object to the 16 question because what this Witness said was, do you know 17 anything about -- yesterday, in response to questions 18 from Mr. Millar, do you know anything about how it was 19 created, how it was sold and what it was used for, and 20 this Witness didn't know. 21 And so what Mr. Falconer is doing, is he's 22 making some assertions about different circumstances and 23 who did what, and this Witness has said, he doesn't know. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 25 Jones.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The Witness said it 2 was about -- about -- I think he said about his appeal. 3 The -- I don't -- unless the Witness -- but I do -- one 4 thing that I do have to say, if the -- if the Witness has 5 spoken to somebody about why they wore the pin, I think 6 he can say that. But without in -- in general, I'm not 7 certain he can answer for all of the people who may have 8 worn a pin. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That -- that's very 10 fair. I -- what I'm seeking is the inferences he draw -- 11 drew from seeing the pin. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Well I -- 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's what I -- in 14 other words he saw the pin on officers and he was an 15 officer at the time and I'm asking the inferences he drew 16 from it. 17 He said yesterday he saw it as support for 18 Ken Deane. Today he's added to that information basket 19 by saying that he recalls it being distributed in and 20 around the time of the Ken Deane appeal in support of Ken 21 Deane. And I'm asking him questions flowing from that, 22 that's all. 23 In other words, what was the appeal and 24 he's just told me and now I have another question. And 25 that's when My Friend objected and that's what I'm


1 confused about because that came from him, not from me. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Like, my objection -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you 5 object-- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: -- Mr. Commissioner, 7 was in the form of a question that Mr. Falconer put to 8 this Witness in that he puts to him that this is created 9 and distributed by certain people. And my objection is, 10 is when the Witness has said that he doesn't know -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: -- to put to him those 13 propositions as though they were fact when there's no 14 basis and no evidence -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: -- for it is unfair. 17 That's why my concern is. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 19 can put your question in such a way as to elicit the 20 information you're looking for, Mr. Falconer. 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's all right. 22 That's fine. If -- if the term 'created and distributed' 23 troubles Ms. Jones, may I put it this way? 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER:


1 Q: Having seen the pin on, as you put 2 it, a lot of people, officers and non officers, I took it 3 that you inferred that the pin that you saw had been 4 created; is that fair? 5 A: It had to have been created. It 6 couldn't exist without it being created. 7 Q: Yes, and that -- and having seen the 8 pin on a lot of people in addition to being created, I 9 take it you inferred from having seen it, that it had 10 been distributed, yes? 11 A: I can't argue with that. 12 Q: No. All right. Now that I brought 13 that out from you, the pin that was created and 14 distributed among officers, was a pin as you put it, to 15 support Ken Deane in his appeal; that's what you said. 16 You inferred that, yes? 17 A: That's what I believed, yes. 18 Q: Yes, okay. And that's all I want. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 22 Q: -- is what you believe. Not -- I 23 don't want you in the minds of others, just what you 24 inferred from seeing the pin. 25 Now, what I wanted to ask you and -- and


1 this is where it was interrupted so I apologize. I just 2 have to back a little bit on ground because, Mr. 3 Commissioner, the trouble is when you get interrupted you 4 -- you lose your flow. Now -- and -- and I'm sure Ms. 5 Jones didn't mean that but that -- that's where I'm at. 6 What I need to know from you, sir, is you 7 did know the appeal was in respect of the criminal 8 negligence conviction that Ken -- in respect of the death 9 of Dudley George; you knew that? 10 A: That's what it all stemmed from, yes. 11 Q: Yes, and you knew that basically Ken 12 Deane in 1997 had been convicted specifically for 13 criminal conduct in respect of the death of Dudley 14 George? 15 A: The dates I can't -- I agree to but I 16 -- I understand that he was convicted, yes. 17 Q: All right. And so I take it you knew 18 that the idea was, in terms -- well, let me -- I'll 19 rephrase that. 20 I take it what you're saying to us about 21 what inferences you drew from the pin, the inference you 22 drew was this was a sign of support to commemorate Ken 23 Deane, right? 24 It was to commemorate Ken Deane in his 25 effort to clear his name in relation to the death of


1 Dudley George, correct? 2 A: It was to support his appeal process 3 which would have been to that effect. 4 Q: Okay. And this is what I'd like to 5 ask you: Would you agree with me that there is a 6 difference between, for example a friend of Ken Deane 7 such as Sergeant Irvine, and a group or a class of 8 recruits just fresh from Ontario Police College who have 9 never met Ken Deane? 10 Would you agree with me there's a 11 distinction to be drawn between those two (2) groups of 12 people? 13 A: Because I know them and -- I'm sorry, 14 I know Ken Deane and they don't? 15 Q: That's right. 16 A: I guess that's the difference, yes. 17 Q: All right. Would you also agree with 18 me that a group of recruits -- and -- and let me back up 19 just so I understand the process; I want to confirm my 20 understanding with you. I'm sort of exaggerating my 21 misunderstanding, I've been in police work a little bit. 22 It's fair to say that you have two (2) 23 major colleges in the Province of Ontario? You -- you 24 have some other smaller one's but you've got Cobick 25 College which services the Toronto Police Service among


1 others, correct? 2 A: I know of it, yes. 3 Q: Yes, and then you have the Aylmer 4 College, OPC, Ontario Police College that services many 5 different police services across the Province, correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the OPP does its first initial 8 formal education of police officers at Aylmer, at OPC, 9 correct? 10 A: Yes, it does. 11 Q: And what happens is recruits, 12 potential OPP officers, get hired and they get -- after 13 they're hired, after they're hired they get sent to OPC 14 for training, correct? 15 A: Initially I think they go to our OPP 16 Academy which is now Orillia; it used to be in Brampton. 17 From there they would go to the Ontario Police College. 18 Q: All right. And they spend a week at 19 the Academy in Orillia? 20 A: I'm not sure what the times are 21 anymore. 22 Q: All right. And then following that 23 roughly three (3) months at the Ontario Police College; 24 is that right, something like that? 25 A: I'm a dinosaur. I'm not sure how


1 they do it anymore. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I came through twenty (20) years ago; 4 things have changed. 5 Q: Okay. And is it consistent with your 6 -- is it consistent with your understanding -- I suggest 7 to you, after their time at the Ontario Police College 8 they return to Orillia for three (3) weeks. Does that 9 sound right? 10 A: It sounds right. I can't say 11 exactly, -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- but it sounds right. 14 Q: The information I have is that 15 immediately prior to the graduation in March of 2000 the 16 graduating class of March of 2000 would have spent three 17 (3) weeks at the Orillia Academy, all right? 18 Does that sound about right? You don't 19 know, fair enough. 20 A: I really don't know. 21 Q: I'll -- I'll keep moving. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, the Witness has 23 said he doesn't know -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No, no, I get it. 25 I'll keep moving.


1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 3 Q: Orillia has what you call an academy; 4 is that right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And so the people at the academy 7 would be uniquely OPP -- OPP brand new recruits, 8 basically with -- with some exceptions, but basically, 9 yes? 10 A: I can't comment to that; I don't 11 know. 12 Q: All right. And all I want to ask you 13 is this. 14 When I asked you if there was a difference 15 -- you have this group of recruits say, my information is 16 and -- and I'll put it to you hypothetically, thirty (30) 17 to forty (40) fresh recruits about to graduate on March 18 3rd, 2000; they're spending the last three (3) weeks at 19 the academy. 20 These would be officers brand spanking new 21 about to graduate, all right? 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: Now, if they're presented as -- each 24 one (1) of them, here's a pin, all right, to support Ken 25 Deane, to clear his name in respect of the death of


1 Dudley George, do you honestly think many of those 2 recruits are going to look up at the officers that 3 presented them with those pins and say, I'm not wearing 4 this, it's inappropriate? 5 I mean, I'm just asking you. Knowing 6 younger officers versus older officers in the culture of 7 policing -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- do you believe, 10 if I can finish my question? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but -- 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 14 Q: Do you believe that it's likely that 15 many recruits would reject the pin presented to them by a 16 more senior officer? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- go 18 ahead. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: And Mr. Commissioner, 20 again -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I don't 22 think -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: -- these questions 24 simply call for this Witness to speculate -- 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's --


1 MS. KAREN JONES: -- about something that 2 he hasn't had -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 4 Falconer, let Ms. Jones finish. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 7 finished, Ms. Jones? 8 MS. KAREN JONES: I am. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm sorry. I 10 didn't mean -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps -- 12 no I -- 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- to interrupt. I 14 just thought I could speed us up. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 16 fine. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'll withdraw it 18 and rephrase it again. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 20 You're going to ask a different question? 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 24 Q: Do you see any concern, as a senior 25 officer in the Ontario Provincial Police, with presenting


1 fresh recruits as a group, as in either individually or 2 collectively, but all of them, with this kind of pin, 3 expecting them to wear it, given who they are and the 4 state of mind they'd be as potentially new recruits? 5 Do you see any problems with that? 6 A: I don't know why it would be done. 7 Q: Okay. Accepting your point, that you 8 don't know why it would be done, but accepting for a 9 moment that hypothetically that it was done, do you see 10 any problems with that? 11 A: Hypothetically that it -- 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: -- was done? I -- it's not something 14 that I would do. 15 Q: Why not? 16 A: Because the pin means something to me 17 and not necessarily the same thing to other people. 18 Q: Would you agree with me also that the 19 reason you wouldn't do it is that, while there may be a 20 personal decision by someone who knows Ken Deane as his 21 friend to support him, having new recruits presented with 22 this as a means of fitting in, is problematic from an 23 institutional point of view? 24 Would you agree that that's problematic? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones,


1 you have an objection to that question? 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. Commissioner, 3 again you have a situation where you've got 4 hypotheticals. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: You've got, I take from 7 this, you know, supposing that they had a pin and 8 supposing that this was an expectation. Supposing this 9 was this -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: It doesn't help, Mr. 12 Commissioner, for this Witness to speculate on this 13 thing, especially when they're in the circumstances where 14 what you're saying, maybe this, maybe this, maybe this, 15 maybe this, what about it? 16 It doesn't help you, Mr. Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 Yes, Mr. Millar...? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't think it's 20 inappropriate to ask a long-time serving police officer 21 the question that My Friend -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 23 think so, either. I thought that there weren't that many 24 suppositions in there and I thought it was an appropriate 25 question.


1 If the Witness can't answer it, he'll say 2 so. 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or feels 5 uncomfortable or whatever, but if he can answer it, I 6 think his answer might be helpful. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 9 Q: So, what I'd asked you, officer, 10 would you agree with me that one (1) of the reasons you 11 wouldn't do it as a senior officer, is that there is a 12 problem with the message being delivered as an 13 institution, to your new recruits; that that's not the 14 way you should do business. 15 Would you agree with that? 16 A: I tend to use the word 17 "uncomfortable". You said hypothetically, and then I'm 18 going into a realm that I'm not -- I'm not comfortable 19 with. 20 I understand all the things that I did and 21 made notes on them; this is all news to me so it's 22 outside my realm of understanding right now. 23 Q: Well, but you said it's news to you. 24 You said that you saw the pin, so that's not news to you. 25 You knew about the pin?


1 A: I agree, yes. 2 Q: Okay. And one (1) of the things I 3 want to ask you about is this pin, looking at it for a 4 moment, and -- and seeing this TRU symbol with a number 5 on it, you've already testified that you'd never seen 6 such an example before of memorabilia offered in support 7 of a live police officer. 8 You've said that, correct? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And you'd agree with me that it 11 amounts to memorabilia designed to support Ken Deane's 12 effort to clear his name, yes? 13 A: For his appeal process, yes. 14 Q: Yes. And so you knew about this 15 memorabilia and I just need to understand a small detail, 16 which is why would it be something that you did not 17 disclose to your Counsel? 18 This is memorabilia that you knew about, 19 but we only learned through other mechanisms. I'm -- I 20 want to understand why. I'm not being critical of you 21 about it, because I don't know why. But why did not 22 disclose the existence of this memorabilia to your 23 Counsel? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 25 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I


1 object to the question. And I also, Mr. Commissioner, 2 think it that, you know, one of the concerns I have with 3 the suggestions raised by Mr. Falconer is that first of 4 all, this is something that people knew or ought to have 5 known would be an issue. 6 And Mr. Falconer continues to call it 7 memorabilia and, Mr. Commissioner, I'm not sure that 8 there's a basis for that. If what -- if what this is is 9 as this Witness said he believes or he understands or he 10 thought was something in relation to Ken Deane's appeal 11 I'm not sure characterizing it as Ipperwash memorabilia 12 is fair or reasonable. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: And I think it is 15 completely inappropriate to ask this Witness what he says 16 and what he does with his Counsel. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 18 that you need -- 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to ask 21 this Witness anymore about that, Mr. Falconer. I mean, I 22 think you've got the information that you need to make 23 whatever submission you want to make. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, we do but 25 here's my difficulty, why I -- and you've seen me on many


1 occasions withdraw a question or continue to move on -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- but I -- I do 4 have to respond to Ms. Jones. May I? 5 Mr. Commissioner, first of all I put it to 6 the Witness, suggested to him that it was memorabilia on 7 -- in order to assist Ken Deane in clearing his name in 8 respect to the death of Dudley George and the Witness 9 agreed with that. So it is untrue to suggest it hasn't 10 been classified as memorabilia. It was classified as 11 memorabilia by this Witness agreeing with my suggestion. 12 Second of all, I understand why Ms. Jones 13 wants to create a big distance between the notion of 14 memorabilia that she's suggesting and this pin because 15 for obvious reasons, but here's my simple point. 16 We are in a situation now where we're 17 cross-examining witnesses -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- and learning of 20 new things. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead, 24 Mr. Falconer. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. And we


1 are in the final stages of this Inquiry; time is 2 precious, you've pointed that out, Mr. Commissioner, 3 resources are precious. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: My time on this 6 cross-examination is being lost on this, but at the same 7 time I have to flesh out why it is that this is the only 8 way we learn of a pin that was distributed to a lot of 9 people. 10 In other words, I have a Witness on the 11 stand -- I -- don't get to cross-examine Mr. Roland, nor 12 is it appropriate, but I have a Witness on the stand who 13 had the information -- who had the information and that 14 information wasn't obtained from him. We don't know why 15 yet. 16 We can't speculate on why because I 17 haven't been able to ask the question yet but -- and I 18 can re-phrase it in a way that My Friend's more 19 comfortable with on the issue of privilege but I want to 20 establish this, that this goes back to April when Mr. Roy 21 was asking questions, Why did you get -- why did you 22 dispose of this item? 23 This goes back to all of the examples 24 including this officer that we've shown you where the OPP 25 investigation, with respect, was a sham; on establishing


1 the existence of memorabilia, it was a sham; that is, 2 this gentleman was never even approached about the 3 existence of memorabilia. 4 So in -- in my submission, and My Friend, 5 if she could leave the -- part of the -- the Court 6 Reporter's taught me you have to leave the mic pointed at 7 you when you're speaking. 8 My submission is purely and simply this: 9 I am now exploring because I -- that is the only means I 10 have of finding out what animates these officers not to 11 tell us about the existence of items. 12 Now, somebody could say or get into an 13 argument a bit about this is in a different 14 classification of items; that's fine. So I get that 15 explanation and now I know to ask a different style 16 question that captures this because it's clearly 17 relevant. 18 In other words if we've got it, be more 19 precise in what we need to identify so that these 20 officers know what's expected of them, fair enough. But 21 if I don't ask these questions, I don't get there. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: So if this Officer 24 for example says, Well, I thought that it was mugs and T- 25 shirts, I didn't know --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- you were 3 interested in 'X', then that's important because now I 4 know how the question needs to be phrased and what we 5 have to ask the witnesses and Mr. Roland to do. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: So I say this is 8 proper. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So put the 10 question in a way now that you think it can be done 11 without -- 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- raising 14 objections. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 18 Q: Officer, as you sit here today can 19 you assist me on why you would not have volunteered the 20 information with respect to the existence of this pin 21 which is now Exhibit -- a picture of which, is now P- 22 1608? 23 A: Why I would not -- 24 Q: Volunteer that information? 25 A: Volunteer to whom and when?


1 Q: To either your counsel or to the 2 Commission? 3 A: I don't understand the significance 4 of what -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 6 THE WITNESS: -- that has to do with what 7 we're here for. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if you 9 can answer the question, answer it. If you can't, don't 10 answer it. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: You don't have to 12 understand the significance, sir, you just -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've been 14 asked why he didn't volunteer it. If you can answer it, 15 answer it; if you can't, don't. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 18 Q: The significance of it isn't 19 important to you, sir, what I just need is an answer to 20 the question which is: 21 Why you didn't volunteer the information 22 as to the existence of this pin to anyone -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Whoever. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER:


1 Q: -- prior to being asked about it by 2 Mr. Millar? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay stop 4 there, Mr. Falconer. Go ahead. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 8 Q: You don't know. Okay. 9 May I suggest to you that the reason you 10 didn't volunteer the existence of this pin is that you 11 knew that the existence of a pin, distributed in this 12 fashion, was potentially embarrassing to the Ontario 13 Provincial Police? 14 A: You can suggest that but I don't 15 agree with you. 16 Q: All right. But you don't know why 17 you didn't, so how do you know that wasn't the reason? 18 A: I think -- 19 Q: You don't know why you didn't 20 volunteer it, so, I put a suggestion to you and you told 21 me that's wrong. 22 A: Well, I didn't volunteer what colour 23 socks I was wearing on the day but it wasn't asked 24 either. To me it -- 25 Q: Same thing?


1 A: -- it wasn't relevant. I -- I don't 2 know why. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: If people had asked me I would have 5 answered. 6 Q: Have you -- you've given your 7 evidence about the T-shirt in the sense that you -- you 8 said that the T-shirt was something that and it's -- when 9 I say T-shirt, I'm referring to Exhibit P-1497 which is 10 the logo reflecting a TRU symbol breaking an arrow an ERT 11 anvil. 12 And the logo is up on the screen which is 13 P-15 -- 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 1494. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 17 Q: 1494. But the T-shirt itself is P- 18 1497. Now, in -- in -- the logo's up on the screen. I 19 want to understand several things. 20 First of all, you've already told Mr. 21 Millar that you weren't approached about your having the 22 T-shirt or knowing about the T-shirt by any OPP 23 investigation. You've already told that to Mr. Millar 24 and we don't need to go over that, but there's only one 25 thing I want to ask you in addition.


1 Do you know of any reason you might not 2 have been approached? That is you might know something I 3 don't as to why you might not have been approached; do 4 you? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. Example, you might have been 7 out of the country for four (4) years, right? That -- 8 that's why I'm asking you, okay? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 Carry on. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thanks. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I want to 13 remind you of the time, Mr. Falconer. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you 16 choose to use it the way you choose -- 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's right. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- but the 19 estimate was forty-five (45) minutes -- 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Forty-five (45) 21 minutes to an hour. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to an 23 hour and you're still within time. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just want


1 to keep you on target. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I am. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 5 Q: You referred at page 338 of the 6 transcript and this is just for My Friends from 7 yesterday's evidence, that the T-shirt to you signified - 8 - and I'm just going to try to give you the words you 9 used. If you... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: At page 337: 14 "The T-shirt represented the fact that 15 we had survived a very traumatic 16 incident." 17 All right. You also said that it: 18 "We ended up working together very well 19 on this night where a lot of people 20 were trying to do a lot of harm to us." 21 That -- that was the essence of what you 22 said? 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: Pages 33 -- and that's true? Is that 25 true, that evidence?


1 A: Yes. I believe people were trying to 2 kill us that night. 3 Q: Right. And -- and you said that as 4 an explanation it sounded to me, and you can correct if 5 I'm wrong, but it sounded to me like your point was that 6 this T-shirt was in part symbolic of the joint work of 7 TRU and ERT, right? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: That was the idea? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And it was symbolic of how TRU and 12 ERT worked together against people as you put it, "A lot 13 of people who were trying to do a lot of harm to us.", 14 right? That's what you said. 15 A: I think it was the fact that we 16 worked together and survived this onslaught. 17 Q: Okay. And -- but -- and -- and you 18 say "onslaught" now, but at page 338, line 19 you say: 19 "A lot of people were trying to do a 20 lot of harm to us." 21 That's fair. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Is -- that's what you mean by 24 "onslaught," right? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Okay. And I take it your point is 2 that in addition to the TRU team and ERT symbols, that 3 the broken arrow reflects the, quote, 4 "lot of people who were trying to do a 5 lot of harm to us." 6 Right? 7 A: Yes. Our -- our attackers, if you 8 want to call it that. 9 Q: Right. And what I want to understand 10 is, it is true and -- and you know, this is a Public 11 Inquiry so it's important that this be clear. 12 It is true that police officers are 13 allowed to use force to repel force under the Criminal 14 Code; you're authorized to that, right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: In fact if it means protecting the 17 public or one another, you're duty bound to use force, 18 correct? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: Sorry? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. So when you say "we 23 survived it", in part you're honouring the fact that as a 24 team you were called upon to use force against a lot of 25 people who were trying to do a lot of harm to you and you


1 survived it? 2 A: No. I put it a different way. 3 Somebody drove a school bus at a formation of people and 4 if you could imagine having a picnic in a park and 5 somebody has to drive a school bus, you are expecting a 6 lot of people are going to get hurt; that is a major 7 weapon to use. 8 I knew that that was going on to my side 9 and I was absolutely stunned at the end of the night that 10 none of our people had been killed by a school bus or a 11 car or any of those other things that were in there. 12 Q: What were the other things? Were any 13 of the other -- 14 A: Well, I understand some officers 15 shot, so they must have seen stuff. Like just -- the 16 whole melee that was going on. Unfortunately I wasn't 17 part of that, I was off to the side, watching and looking 18 for other firearms at that stage. 19 Q: But as you've put it "the whole 20 melee", right, the onslaught, that's the lot of people 21 trying to do harm to you, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that broken arrow in the logo, 24 and you can see it on the screen, that broken arrow is 25 meant to reflect how you dealt with those lot of people


1 trying to do harm to you; isn't that right? 2 A: Basically we repelled it; we survived 3 it. 4 Q: Yes. And the broken arrow and the 5 notion of having to use force to repel force, they're not 6 very dissimilar, are they? 7 In other words, you know under the 8 Criminal Code that when you have a lot of people trying 9 to do harm to you, as you put it, you're under the 10 Criminal Code, expected to apply force to them, right? 11 A: I'm not going to say expected; we are 12 allowed to. 13 Q: All right. And that's what happened 14 that night, yes? 15 A: Well speaking to the other officers I 16 -- I did not fire any shots, I did not do any of that 17 stuff, but basically I know other officers were involved 18 in that. 19 Q: Right. And -- and that's why you 20 say, quote, "we survived it", yes? 21 A: Yes, we did survive it. 22 Q: Right. But you survived it by virtue 23 of ERT and TRU working together to repel force with 24 force, right? 25 A: Okay.


1 Q: Isn't that true? 2 A: Well, we did work together and we -- 3 yeah, we did repel the people that were trying to do harm 4 to us. 5 Q: You repelled -- 6 A: So with force, yes. 7 Q: Right. And so just -- just for a 8 minute, getting rid of all the law words in the entire 9 world, it would be a bit silly to suggest this was meant 10 as a peace symbol to the people that were trying to do 11 harm to you, right? 12 I mean, the idea that this arrow -- broken 13 arrow would be a peace symbol to the people trying to do 14 harm to you, that that wouldn't be what you were thinking 15 of? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: You'd have to ask the person who 20 designed the T-shirt but -- 21 Q: No. You're giving your opinion on 22 it. 23 A: No. I agree, but to me that just 24 meant that people were trying to do harm to us and I 25 guess the arrow can represent that that is the harm; it's


1 a weapon. 2 Q: Right. And so in the end, on this -- 3 and in your mind necessary act of aggression was employed 4 against the occupiers in the onslaught? In your mind a 5 necessary act of aggression was employed against the 6 occupiers as reflected by the broken arrow? 7 A: Your words, the occupiers. These are 8 the people that came out -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- to attack -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- us. 13 Q: That's who I'm talking about. The 14 group, as you put it, a lot of people trying to do harm 15 to us, the onslaught, the melee, those people. 16 A: The people that were attacking us. 17 Q: Yes. Are you agreeing with me that, 18 in your mind, a necessary act of aggression was employed 19 as against those people, and that is symbolised by the 20 breaking of the arrow? 21 A: In self defence. Obviously, force 22 was used to protect ourselves. 23 Q: And that is symbolised by the 24 breaking of the arrow? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Thank you. So when your current 2 Commissioner says she's, quote, "shocked and appalled by 3 the existence of this logo and this T-shirt", I take it 4 you're not shocked and appalled by the existence of this 5 logo or this T-shirt? 6 A: I'm not. This represents to me that 7 we survived something. 8 Q: Right. So you're not shocked and 9 appalled? 10 A: No, I'm not. Why would I be? 11 Q: All right. And that's what I want to 12 ask you about. 13 You said that, in your statement that Mr. 14 Millar gave you an opportunity to give at the end of your 15 evidence, you made reference to the loss of trust between 16 policing and First Nations arising from this incident. 17 I want to give you the quote so you have 18 the context for how you said it. Would you give me one 19 (1) moment, please? 20 A: Certainly. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 25 Q: Mr. Millar found it and I appreciate


1 his assistance, page 348 line 20, quote: 2 "After this Ipperwash event one (1) of 3 the effects has been the loss of trust 4 I think from the First Nations 5 communities." 6 You said that? 7 A: I don't remember the exact words but 8 I remember the gist of what I said, yes. 9 Q: All right. And -- and Mr. Millar's 10 bringing it up so if you look at line 20. You -- you 11 said that you wrote some -- I've written a few points 12 out, sir, if you don't mind. 13 You -- you wrote out some points and you 14 read from those yesterday? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Good. Line 20 page 348, quote: 17 "After this Ipperwash event one (1) of 18 the effects has been the loss of trust 19 I think from the First Nations 20 communities." 21 You said that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Now, here's what you do 24 know after Ipperwash happens. I put to you, sir, between 25 1995 and 1998 these are the following facts you, Sergeant


1 Irvine, are in possession of: 2 (a) You know following the night of 3 September 6th, 1995, that Dudley George had died, yes? 4 You know that? 5 A: I can't remember when I heard it but 6 I -- I understand he's deceased, yes. 7 Q: Within days or weeks you knew that? 8 A: Likely days. 9 Q: Right. Number 2, you knew that you 10 never saw a firearm in anybody's hands on the occupiers' 11 side in the sandy parking lot? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You -- 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: You knew that? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 15 have to shout, you can put your question exactly in the 16 form you are, but you do not have to raise your voice or 17 shout. Now, ask the same question again in a normal 18 tone. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you, Mr. 20 Commissioner, but we're on a transcript -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just ask it. 22 I don't mean to break your flow -- 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- knowing we are 24 on a transcript and you use the word "shout" and is it 25 fair to me?


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is 2 shouting. 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I raised my voice 4 but I didn't shout. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And so in -- in 7 cross-examination -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it sounds 9 like it. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- the cadence of 11 the voice is part of Counsel's -- but I -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I hear you and 14 I'll just follow -- abide by it but I have to say I 15 didn't -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 Ask the same question again. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. Thank 19 you. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 22 Q: You knew that -- I'm going to back up 23 because I -- the -- the question I need to put as a 24 package to the Witness. You knew that Dudley George, 25 within days or weeks after September 6th, 1995, you knew


1 that Dudley George had died? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: You also knew, on your observations, 4 the night of September 6th, 1995, that you never saw any 5 occupier in the sandy parking lot with a firearm, on your 6 observations? 7 A: I didn't watch the sandy parking lot 8 but I, in that entire night, did not see a Native with a 9 firearm. 10 Q: And you had night vision? 11 A: I -- I did but the night vision 12 wasn't a great advantage with all the ambient light that 13 was around there so it -- it didn't make me special to 14 have night vision that night. 15 Q: Your job was to be a TRU Team support 16 and use your night vision equipment to keep an eye out 17 for firearms to protect the CMU officers; that was part 18 of your job that night? 19 A: I'm -- I'm not going to say to use my 20 night vision equipment. If you take night vision into a 21 bright area, night vision is a complete liability so why 22 bother trying to use it. My job was to be there, to 23 support, and look out for firearms. 24 Q: And you didn't see any firearms? 25 A: I did not see any firearms.


1 Q: All right. So we have two (2) things 2 that you knew of as of the period of time after September 3 6th, 1995; one (1) is that Dudley George died and two (2) 4 you never saw any firearms that you saw in the hands of 5 the occupiers during the skirmish. 6 Now, the third thing that you knew is that 7 you knew there was an investigation by SIU and ultimately 8 a charge against Ken Deane, yes? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And you knew as of April 11 1997 though you can't pin down the date that Ken Deane 12 was convicted with criminal negligence causing the death 13 of Dudley George? You knew that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You knew no one else had died at the 16 incident, right? On the night of September 6th, 1995, no 17 one else but Dudley George had died? 18 A: I -- I can't say I knew, but I 19 certainly hadn't heard of anybody else. 20 Q: Looking at that logo you've told us 21 that it commemorates in part the use of force against 22 those occupiers that night and your succeeding, right, 23 your surviving, correct? 24 A: I don't think, "commemorates" is the 25 word. To me ERT and TRU worked together and we fended


1 off people that were trying to do serious harm to us. 2 Q: And breaking the arrow reflects a 3 successful fending off, agreed? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: I -- I'm just trying to make sure my 8 words are right here; that I don't want to get mixed up 9 so give me a second here, please. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Yeah, the arrow represents the force 14 that was used against us and we survived that force. 15 Q: And you've testified that you, in no 16 way, find the notion offensive that you have a -- that 17 you had a T-shirt and that there exists a logo 18 celebrating the aggression against those people in the 19 wake of the death of a man who the Courts found was 20 unarmed when he died; is that true? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you're 22 going -- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, that's not a 24 fair question. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- too far,


1 Mr. Falconer with -- 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I know. I'll 3 withdraw it -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the 5 question's -- 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'll withdraw it. 7 Fine. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 10 Q: You told Mr. Millar that the T-shirt 11 that's depicted -- that depicted the logo that's on the 12 screen, P-1494, that you didn't recall whether you wore 13 the T-shirt in public. 14 Do you remember saying that? 15 A: I remember saying that, yes. 16 Q: Page 339, line 17 though 19. Now, I 17 notice that there are some things that you say you don't 18 remember, such as whether you wore it in public or not, 19 and then when asked other questions, for example, page 20 342, you were asked: 21 "Did you ever see a beer can with a 22 feather, when you were in the Ipperwash 23 area?" 24 And you said, "No." You didn't say, I 25 don't remember, you said "no."


1 You were quite certain you didn't see a 2 beer can with a feather it in, right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: You also said, when asked whether you 5 saw a bull's eye on the side of an OPP cruiser, you did 6 the same thing; you said, No, I didn't see that, right? 7 A: I didn't see that. 8 Q: Right. Not, I don't remember, 9 correct? 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: And the reason I ask you this and I'm 12 sort of focussing your attention on it, is what I also 13 notice, though, is after saying no in absolutely 14 unqualified terms to those questions, at page 342 line 21 15 you said: 16 "Q: Did you see any cartoons at the 17 Pinery Park when you were at the Pinery 18 Park that were disparaging towards 19 Aboriginal people?" 20 To that one you said, "I don't remember". 21 A: Okay. I think the -- the difference 22 here is that some stuff I've been spoken with Counsel and 23 the bull's eye having been mentioned, no, I didn't see 24 that. So the cartoon thing -- maybe that answers your 25 question, then?


1 I -- I -- through preparation through 2 Commission Counsel and so on certain things had been 3 brought up and I've already visited that and absolutely 4 do not remember or no I didn't, so, does that -- does 5 that answer your question? 6 Q: Are you saying then that the issue of 7 the cartoon at the Pinery would have been something that 8 you just hadn't heard about before? 9 Is that your point? I'm trying to 10 understand your answer. 11 A: Yeah, I don't remember having 12 discussed that. 13 Q: So are you confident that you didn't 14 see such a cartoon or you just simply don't recall? 15 A: I'm pretty confident I didn't see 16 such a cartoon. But... 17 Q: Now, I asked -- 18 A: Pretty confident is close to don't 19 remember. I -- I -- 20 Q: Would you agree with this, that now 21 sitting in the shoes you sit, because you gave a 22 statement on what your impression was, one of the things 23 you talked about was this loss of trust between the 24 police community and Aboriginal community. 25 If -- if that trust is going to be


1 repaired, would you agree that part of repairing the 2 trust, if the trust is to be repaired, part of repairing 3 the trust is respect for each other's communities? 4 A: Oh, I think for -- respect for each 5 other, definitely. And all of the facts being brought 6 out so that each person can have a look at all -- all of 7 the aspects of this. 8 Q: And do you believe a T-shirt 9 celebrating or commemorating an act of aggression in 10 which a First Nations person died is a respect for the 11 First Nations community? 12 A: You use the word "celebrate" and I do 13 not do that at all. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: To me we survived. 16 Q: Okay. Take away my word "celebrate"; 17 take away my words "commemorating". Honouring? You tell 18 me. What does that T-shirt -- you've told us what the 19 idea behind it, but was it to honour the moment, was it 20 to commemorate the moment? 21 What do you use as a word? Don't use my 22 word. 23 A: Yeah, I'm certainly not going to use 24 your words. To me, we went through a very, very 25 traumatic incident and we came away -- I don't want to


1 say more united, because I mentioned yesterday and you 2 weren't here, but how TRU and ERT had not worked closely 3 together before. 4 And I think I learn -- earned a lot of -- 5 I'm sorry, have a lot of respect for some of the ERT 6 people; what they went through and how they conducted 7 their business. And I think that was a mutual thing. We 8 survived a huge incident. 9 Q: And I've got your answer and read 10 your evidence, but I'm asking you a more pointed 11 question. 12 Is the T-shirt meant to remind you about 13 that activity? Is it meant to commemorate that? What is 14 it meant to do? 15 You didn't like my word 'commemorate'. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Give him a 17 chance to think of what he wants to say. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well that's fair. 19 I'm just trying to get him to focus on -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- on what I want 22 to know. 23 THE WITNESS: I suppose 'remind' would be 24 a good word. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 2 Q: All right. 3 A: Certainly not 'commemorate' and 4 absolutely not 'celebrate'. 5 Q: All right. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which 7 reminds me that I need to remind you that you're at one 8 (1) hour. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I hope 11 that you would start your bring your examination to a 12 conclusion. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes, thank you. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 16 Q: The word 'remind', let's use it. Do 17 you honestly believe and are you telling this 18 Commissioner, that you think it's a sign of respect to 19 that community that you need to convey respect towards, 20 that you bear a reminder on a T-shirt in relation to how 21 you overcame them at Ipperwash Provincial Park? 22 Do you think that's a sign of respect? 23 A: I'm sorry, who did we overcome? 24 Q: Your evidence was that you survived 25 an overcame your attackers; that was your evidence, sir.


1 Do you recall -- 2 A: But we withdrew, we did not gain 3 ground. We survived people that tried to kill us and 4 then we backed off. 5 Q: That broken arrow shows TRU team. 6 You were a member of TRU team? 7 A: I was a member of TRU team, yes. 8 Q: That broken arrow shows TRU team as a 9 symbol breaking the arrow against an anvil of ERT, 10 correct? 11 A: That's what the symbol shows. 12 Q: And you think it's a sign of respect 13 to the community you're trying to rebuild trust with to 14 bear that as a reminder of the incident in which Dudley 15 George died? 16 Do you think that's a sign of respect? 17 A: To me, it's not about respect or lack 18 of respect there; that symbol is the survival thing. And 19 -- and I -- I don't know if you've ever been involved in 20 a fight, but when you're dealing with so many people 21 trying to do harm to so many police officers, that -- 22 that was just unprecedented in my world. And we survived 23 that. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right.


1 He's answered the question a few times now. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I hope you 4 move on with that. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 8 Q: And in your mind today, do you 9 understand or appreciate how those from the First Nations 10 community would find the reminder in the form of a TRU 11 team breaking an arrow over the ERT anvil, would find 12 that offensive, and find that as a barrier to building 13 trust? 14 Do you understand that? 15 A: Okay. I'm going to answer this 16 question in two (2) parts I guess. 17 If you tell me that that arrow represents 18 a person, then that would be offensive. If you tell me 19 that I've got a bomb T-shirt that's got Guy Fawkes on it 20 which is the symbol of all of the bomb techs in all of 21 Canada. And it's just a little caricature of Guy Fawkes. 22 You might have monarchists to royalists in England saying 23 that's terrible because this is the guy that tried to 24 blow up the Houses of Parliament. So, therefore, it's 25 very offensive.


1 Well, that's not the idea behind it. So 2 if you're telling me that that arrow represents that, 3 then I can see people taking offence. 4 If you tell me that the arrow represents 5 breaking the -- the tools of war so that we're having 6 peace, then that's another interpretation as well. 7 So I'm just going by what you're telling 8 me that arrow means right now. 9 Q: And all that matters aren't my 10 questions, it's your evidence. And it was your evidence 11 that the arrow represented a lot of people who were 12 trying to do a lot of harm to us. 13 Are you changing that evidence? 14 A: No. Because they were trying to do a 15 lot of harm to us. 16 Q: Right. And a lot of people are human 17 beings, right? 18 A: As are we, yes. 19 Q: Yes. And that arrow represents 20 breaking those human beings, doesn't it? 21 A: No. That's -- to me that's breaking 22 the weapon that the human beings were using. 23 Q: There were many arrows -- 24 A: Maybe the person -- 25 Q: There were many arrows used against


1 you that night? 2 A: Maybe the person could have -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, that's 4 fine. 5 THE WITNESS: -- put a school bus instead 6 of an arrow in, but I don't know. You'll have to ask the 7 person that designed it. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 10 Q: Arrows are about cowboys and Indians, 11 aren't they? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 13 enough, Mr. Falconer. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Aren't they? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 16 Falconer, that's enough. Thank you very much, Mr. 17 Falconer. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. -- Mr. Falconer 19 has asked this question and -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 Those are not necessary. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That concludes my 23 questions. Thank you, Officer. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 25 Mr. Falconer.


1 I'm not sure what the sequence is now 2 after -- Ms. Esmonde next? Thank you. 3 And have forgotten your time estimate. 4 Perhaps you could remind me. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thirty (30) to forty- 6 five (45) minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. And I do appreciate -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- counsel 11 making -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- reasonable 14 estimates and doing their best to stay within them. 15 Otherwise we'll never get done. So I do appreciate that. 16 Yes...? 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 18 know it's a little bit early, but I'm wondering if we 19 could have our morning break now before Ms. Esmonde 20 starts? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Certainly. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you very much. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 24 break now. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess


1 for fifteen (15) minutes. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 10:04 a.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 10:20 a.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Good morning. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 12 Q: Good morning, Sergeant. My name is-- 13 A: Good morning. 14 Q: -- Jackie Esmonde, and I'm going to 15 be asking you some questions of behalf of the Aazhoodena 16 and George family group. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: Now, you told us yesterday about 19 being interviewed by Ron Piers on September 16th, 1997? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And can you tell us, how did that 22 interview come about? 23 A: As in who arranged it, or...? 24 Q: How -- how were you contacted; who 25 contacted you?


1 A: I don't remember. 2 Q: You don't remember? Were you asked 3 by a superior officer to meet with Ron Piers? 4 A: I don't remember. 5 Q: Can you tell us, would you have had 6 to have let your superior officer know that you were 7 going to be meeting with Ron Piers? 8 A: That would make sense if I was 9 working. I think I was working on that day, so -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- yes. 12 Q: So you were meeting with Ron Piers as 13 part of your official duties as a member of the OPP? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you were aware that Ken Deane had 16 been both convicted and sentenced by the time you had 17 that interview? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you were aware that Ron Piers had 20 been hired by Ken Deane's defence team to assist in an 21 investigation for an Appeal? 22 A: Yes. The interview happened at Norm 23 Peel's -- the other lawyer, at his place. 24 Q: And you were taken yesterday to a 25 document at Tab 16 of your binder, which was the


1 Affidavit in Her Majesty the Queen and Kenneth Deane 2 which is marked as P-1605. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You have that. And you'll see at the 5 back there's Exhibit C to the Affidavit; there's a 6 handwritten statement. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Is that your handwriting, sir? 11 A: Give me a second here, please. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Yes, I've got Exhibit C now. This is 16 not my handwriting. 17 Q: Okay. If you'll turn to -- it's 18 marked as page 8 in handwriting at the top. It's the 19 second to last page in your Tab, I believe. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: You'll see you did sign it. 24 A: Yes, I did. Yes, that's my -- 25 Q: And it looks like it says, "taken by


1 Ron Piers --" 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: "-- concluded 12:40 p.m." 4 So can we assume that the statement was 5 written out by Ron Piers but you read it and signed it? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Okay. Now, I'd like to go back to 8 something you touched on -- that was touched on during 9 your cross-examination by Mr. Falconer, just before me. 10 He was asking you about your night vision 11 equipment? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you had mentioned that, in your 14 view, it didn't give you much of an advantage because of 15 all the ambient light? 16 A: That's right. When I was forward at 17 that final position, no. Probably when I first got out 18 of the vehicle in the -- the dark laneways and stuff, 19 yes, it was an advantage, but not up against the -- 20 Q: Okay. And I'll be -- 21 A: -- the fence area. 22 Q: I'll be focussing my questions about 23 that -- about that piece of equipment while you were at 24 position 5 and 7. 25 A: Okay.


1 Q: Okay. That was forward by the 2 cottage, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you had a view of the Park? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Now the -- the night vision scope 7 that you had on the gun also had a three (3) powered 8 magnification? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: So it would allow you to enlarge 11 objects that were in the distance so you could see them 12 more clearly? 13 A: To some degree. Night vision is not 14 the same as a -- looking through a telescope where it's 15 that clear. And a lot of the -- it's not called 16 pixelation but it's just the way that each tiny little 17 bit of light is magnified sometimes it changes depending 18 on the type of light that it is and so on. But it's -- 19 it's not as clear as a telescope. 20 Q: Fair enough. But the fact that there 21 was lighting of different sorts in that area at that time 22 did not distort your vision through the night vision 23 equipment; is that right? 24 A: Sometimes it was easier to look over 25 the top of the weapon with the naked eye as we call it


1 just to get a clearer picture. 2 Q: Okay, but -- 3 A: The night vision has a -- a focus 4 ring on it. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: So if there was a certain object that 7 I really needed to concentrate on I could certainly focus 8 it to whatever that distance was but I don't know whether 9 I would have got a clearer picture through the night 10 vision than with the naked eye in that respect. 11 Q: Well, it -- it had a three (3) power 12 magnification? 13 A: Yes, but a three (3) power 14 magnification with a distorted picture is no great 15 advantage. 16 Q: Okay. Well, my question though was 17 the fact that there was lighting in the area was not 18 distorting your view through the night vision equipment; 19 is that right? 20 A: I'm going to have to explain this 21 because it's -- it's fairly technical; I'm not a -- a 22 technical person. 23 Q: No. 24 A: The night vision screen is made up of 25 -- it's almost like a television camera I guess, so what


1 the lens of the television camera gets it increases each 2 small part of light. So things that would show up to the 3 naked eye as being fairly dim it certainly enhances to 4 some degree. 5 With lights flashing across the lens as 6 hand-held jacklights or flashlights or vehicle lights and 7 so on it -- it's just a temporary change of the input so 8 obviously the screen gets a little brighter and then goes 9 back again. 10 It's not like a bright light though going 11 across the screen and just staying imprinted on that 12 screen as I think the television and movies and so on 13 have shown it. It -- it does fade relatively quickly. 14 But the lights would have an impact and do 15 have an impact on night vision when they're being flashed 16 across it. Night vision is meant to be used in very low 17 light situations. 18 Q: Okay. Can I ask you to turn to Tab 19 13 in your document brief which is a transcript of your 20 SIU interview, and I believe this is the version that was 21 identified as being more complete or more accurate. It's 22 been marked as P-1603. If you could turn to page 18. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 A: Yes? 2 Q: And you'll see on that page you're 3 being asked about the night vision scope. And the third 4 question by Mr. Clelland you said: 5 "It doesn't impair you division [I 6 think that must actually mean vision] 7 vision of what you actually seen. Like 8 if there was lights shining it doesn't 9 impair it? 10 IRVINE: Yeah, some systems will shut 11 down until the light source is gone. 12 In my case it's just a little 13 brighter." 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: "CLELLAND: Okay. 16 IRVINE: Obviously as your eye light - 17 - eye would pick up something that's 18 brighter. 19 CLELLAND: Okay. 20 IRVINE: But if an extremely bright 21 upper left portion of the screen I can 22 still look at the bottom right and 23 see." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: "CLELLAND: The -- if someone was


1 carrying something in their hands would 2 that object look distinct in your -- in 3 your vision or would it be distorted? 4 IRVINE: No, there's a focus on the 5 night vision and there's a focus for 6 the certain area that I'm looking at 7 and I -- I was able to tell certainly 8 this was a fire axe as opposed to a 9 pick axe or anything else." 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: So -- 12 A: I think -- 13 Q: -- and you made those sometimes at 14 that time? 15 A: Yes, I -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- I think what he was referring to 18 when I talk about the -- the bright light off to the 19 side, I've been on calls where there's been a street 20 light over a place and I'm trying to look into an area 21 down into the left of it which was dark and unfortunately 22 because it's only a three (3) power magnification I'm 23 still catching the street -- street light in the upper 24 right part of the screen. 25 So that does stay bright definitely but


1 the lower left part of the screen does do its work and 2 allow me to see into the darkness. 3 Q: Okay. But to talk specifically about 4 the evening of September 6th the fact that there were 5 lights in the area didn't prevent you from being able to 6 focus in through the scope on particular objects that you 7 wanted to see? 8 A: No, I was able to use it to focus -- 9 Q: That's -- 10 A: -- yes. 11 Q: Okay. Now, you've told us that prior 12 to heading out as Sierra 1 from the TOC site you had been 13 warned about the possibility of certain types of firearms 14 as well as Molotov cocktails? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And were you told that there was a 17 possibility or a probability of these types of weapons? 18 What level of certainty was there that these weapons were 19 out there? 20 A: I'm going to refer to my notes there. 21 I don't remember the degree. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: For -- for My Friends, it's at Tab 6,


1 P-1599 and it's been mar -- I believe the page you want 2 has a P -- is page 518. 3 A: I'm referring to my actual notebook. 4 Q: Yeah, and I -- I can't distinguish 5 what your notebook number -- 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: -- is, but that's -- 8 A: I have page 32 on the bottom -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- right of my notebook. 11 Q: And that's where you're told -- 12 you've recorded there was a briefing from Skinner? 13 A: The briefing started with Skinner -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- and then I've in bracket, "(note 16 at 21:14)", so I -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- I can't say that was Skinner. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I think that was Zupancic but I can't 21 be absolutely sure on that. But as to the certainty or 22 the degree of these things, I can't speak to that. 23 Q: It says: 24 "Briefing [bracket] (info) [close 25 bracket] of Natives having mini 14s,


1 Molotov cocktails, AK-47s or similar 2 scoped rifles." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: So the word you've used there is 5 "having"? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And which suggests a high degree of 8 certainty. 9 A: I can't argue with that; that does 10 make sense. 11 Q: And you -- you've told us that your 12 role was to observe for any threat of firearms -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- while you were as part of the 15 Sierra team? 16 A: That was part of my role, yes. 17 Q: And I take it you were also looking 18 carefully for Molotov cocktails or other incendiary 19 devices of that nature? 20 A: When I first went to the scene it was 21 basically to be able to get a -- an eye on the ground, 22 get a feel for what was going on. When other people were 23 moving up, my job was basically protection. I think you 24 can encapsulate it in that one word. 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: It was to make sure that there were 2 no firearms that would seriously injure our people. 3 Q: Well, a Molotov cocktail is also a 4 serious threat, right? 5 A: Yes, it is, yes. 6 Q: And were you aware that the CMU were 7 not wearing fire retardant equipment? 8 A: I didn't know what they had at that 9 stage. 10 Q: Irregardless, you would consider a 11 Molotov cocktail to be a serious threat to the members of 12 the CMU? 13 A: Serious bodily harm or death, yes -- 14 Q: Absolutely. 15 A: -- I think so. 16 Q: And it was your role to protect them? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Are you authorized to use lethal 19 force against a person with a Molotov cocktail? 20 A: If I fear serious bodily harm or 21 death, yes. 22 Q: So I take it if you had seen anything 23 in the hands of the people you were observing, the First 24 Nations people, that looked like a Molotov cocktail you 25 would have focussed in on that?


1 A: I certainly would have paid a lot of 2 attention to it, yes. 3 Q: That's right. You would try to find 4 the source and see if there were more people who had 5 Molotov cocktails in their hands or were preparing them? 6 A: Or find the source of them or all of 7 the above. 8 Q: And there's no note, you'd agree with 9 me, in your -- in your handwritten notes, that you 10 observed anything that looked like a Molotov cocktail? 11 A: Well, I did see what I described as 12 firesticks being thrown. 13 Q: That's right. 14 A: But I suppose -- 15 Q: That's not a Molotov cocktail, is it? 16 A: Well, it -- I guess it could be if 17 you see somebody picking something up from a fire and 18 throwing it, is it something like a small bottle that 19 they have just lit or is it a stick. 20 I didn't know, I just couldn't 21 differentiate. 22 Q: Well, you described it as sticks. 23 A: That's -- that's my word at the time, 24 yes. 25 Q: And you actually saw people picking


1 sticks up out of the fire and throwing it -- 2 A: I saw people picking stuff up out of 3 the fire and I -- I used the term 'firesticks' when I 4 described it. 5 Q: Okay. And are you -- is it your 6 testimony then that when you say firesticks, you could 7 also mean Molotov cocktails? 8 A: I honestly can't discount it, because 9 I couldn't see that clearly. They were picking something 10 that was burning up from the fire and throwing it. 11 Q: Okay. But you didn't believe they 12 were Molotov cocktails when you saw that, did you? 13 A: I didn't know and I didn't hear 14 anything on the radio to say people were receiving it, so 15 I -- I must have just presumed it to be sticks. 16 Q: And you -- you continued scanning the 17 other people? 18 A: My job was to watch out for firearms 19 more often than not, than in -- if Molotovs had been 20 obvious -- if I'd seen a source of Molotov cocktails I 21 think I would have been advising people of that; that's 22 part of my role -- 23 Q: That's right. And you didn't get -- 24 A: -- in protection. 25 Q: -- on your radio and say, look out,


1 there may be Molotov cocktails? 2 A: No, I don't remember anything like 3 that. 4 Q: Sorry, could you speak up? 5 A: I'm sorry. No, I don't remember 6 anything like that. 7 Q: Okay. You didn't make such a comment 8 on the radio, right? 9 A: I don't think so. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Honestly, if I'd seen what I thought 14 was a Molotov, I would have mentioned it. 15 Q: And you didn't? 16 A: I didn't make any mention of it so... 17 Q: In your -- you gave a statement to 18 the OPP on September 9th; that's at Tab 12 if you want to 19 confirm the day. It's P-16 -- 20 A: September 9th of 1995 to Russ 21 Donaldson. 22 Q: That's right. And at page 5 -- at 23 page 5 the transcript has you describing what you saw 24 being thrown. Near the top, the first complete sentence: 25 "The CMU was confronted by Natives that


1 came out of the Park. I could see them 2 throwing stuff at the CMU. Some of the 3 stuff was firesticks from the bonfire." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Right. And again there you used the 6 word 'firesticks'. 7 A: Well Russ Donaldson actually wrote 8 this statement. So it... 9 Q: Well, you signed the handwritten 10 portion. 11 A: No, I definitely did. I'm not 12 arguing that. 13 Q: You read it before you signed it? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And it was accurate in your view and 16 that's why you signed it? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You didn't say, We better add in here 19 that I -- those could have been Molotov cocktails? 20 A: I guess because I didn't think them 21 at the time to be Molotov cocktails because of what was 22 going on so I just agreed with the words 'firesticks'. 23 Q: Sorry. You said you didn't think at 24 the time that they were Molotov cocktails; is that what 25 you just said?


1 A: No. When I was watching the whole 2 thing going on, there was nothing in my mind that told me 3 those are Molotov cocktails as opposed to burning 4 objects. So when the word 'firesticks' is written down, 5 that's fair. 6 Q: Right. And -- and you would agree 7 with me, if you had thought that they could be Molotov 8 cocktails you would have kept your focus on them to try 9 to determine if they were in fact Molotov cocktails? 10 A: That makes sense. Yes, yes. 11 Q: But you didn't do that. You 12 continued scanning and moving your eye about. 13 A: Because I -- what I saw I wasn't 14 concerned was a Molotov cocktail. I moved to the next 15 potential threat. 16 Q: Okay. Now there is a statement in 17 the document brief in which you do say that there were 18 other lighted things that could have been Molotov 19 cocktails. I'm going to take to that -- that's your 20 statement to Ron Piers at Tab 16. 21 A: It's the handwritten Exhibit 'C' and 22 there's a handwritten page 5 at the top. And the seventh 23 line from the top: 24 "They were throwing firesticks from the 25 bonfire and other lighted things, they


1 could have been lighted sticks, some 2 other lighted objects and/or Molotov 3 cocktails." 4 And you'd agree with me that's the first 5 time in any written or verbal statement that you had 6 given regarding the incidents of that evening that you -- 7 you said that what you saw could have been Molotov 8 cocktails? 9 A: They could have been. 10 Q: But -- but that's the first time that 11 you say that. 12 A: Well, without going through all my 13 notes, I -- I don't know. 14 Q: Okay. Do you wish to review your 15 notes to -- I can tell you that I've looked through your 16 notes and at the statements that you've given and this is 17 the first time I see that word used. 18 A: I'll take your word for it. I -- I 19 know the lighted things -- 20 Q: I'm sure your counsel will rise if 21 I'm wrong but -- 22 A: I know that lighted things were being 23 thrown and I was watching -- unfortunately I can only 24 watch one person at a time. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.


1 A: So as I'm moving off to the left, 2 other stuff may be picked up. I -- I honestly can't 3 comment to that right now. But I -- of anybody that I 4 specifically looked at, I did not see a Molotov cocktail 5 in their hand. 6 Does that answer your question? 7 Q: Were you present during the -- the -- 8 any of the Kenneth Deane trial? 9 A: No, I wasn't. 10 Q: Okay. Were you present during the 11 reading of the judgment? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I think I was. I... 16 Q: So you think you were? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: After the trial was over, I know 21 there was the finding of guilt. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: And then there was the sentencing and 24 I -- I was -- I forget which one, but I was there for -- 25 for something anyway.


1 Q: Okay. You were at -- you could have 2 been at the judgment reading or you could have been at 3 the sentencing, you can't remember which one? 4 A: I can't remember. 5 Q: Okay. Can you recall if you read the 6 judgment? 7 A: I don't remember. 8 Q: You're aware are you, that one issue 9 that's raised in the judgment and was raised in the 10 course of the trial, was the alleged fabrication of 11 evidence regarding a sighting of a Molotov cocktail? 12 Were you aware of that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did Piers tell you that during the 15 course of your interview, that that was an issue at the 16 trial? 17 A: I don't remember. 18 Q: You didn't see any explosion that 19 would be consistent with a Molotov cocktail? 20 A: No, I didn't. 21 Q: And I would put it to you that it was 22 only much later in 1997, after the conviction and 23 sentencing of Kenneth Deane, that it was suggested to you 24 that what you saw could have been a Molotov cocktail, and 25 that's why you included that in your statement?


1 A: I think much like we're doing now, 2 could it have been this? It could have. 3 Q: So if someone suggested to you that 4 it could have been a Molotov cocktail...? 5 A: I don't know if "suggested" is the 6 word, somebody asked me a question and I gave a response 7 right now. And -- and even back then it could have, I 8 just don't know. 9 Q: But you'd -- you -- as you've said, 10 and you would agree that at the time you certainly didn't 11 think it was a Molotov cocktail? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Now I'd like to move on to the -- the 14 sounds, the shot -- sorry, the shots that you heard. And 15 I am a bit confused about your evidence on that point. 16 Now you told us that you -- you heard 17 noises that you believed to be shots? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And this was -- and you heard what 20 you thought were different kinds of shots? 21 A: Yes. There were different weapons 22 being fired. 23 Q: Right. You couldn't identify the 24 firearms that you heard but you could -- you could 25 identify that different types of firearms were being


1 fired? 2 A: I could tell that different firearms 3 were being fired. 4 Q: Right. Now we have heard and seen 5 evidence, during the course of this Inquiry, that the 6 following types of firearms were fired by OPP officers on 7 the roadway that evening, there's an HK MP5 9 millimetre, 8 an HK-33 E3 .223, an HK MP55D, a Smith and Wesson .38 9 Special, and the .40 calibre Sig Sauer. Were you aware 10 of that before I just told you? 11 A: I saw probably a similar document 12 this morning with Counsel -- 13 Q: Oh, I see. 14 A: -- and -- 15 Q: I did give the document number -- 16 A: It would be an MP5 SD, as opposed to 17 a 55D or whatever you described as. 18 Q: Oh, okay. 19 A: And I think those weapons would be 20 consistent with what OPP officers had. 21 Q: Okay. And those different firearms 22 would have different sounds as they went off? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you'd agree with that -- you 25 would agree with me that what you heard would be


1 consistent with those types of firearms all being 2 discharged by different officers? 3 A: I can't tell which specific firearm 4 was fired in what order, I just know that a lot of 5 different ones were fired, and obviously you've mentioned 6 a lot of different firearms there. 7 Q: Okay. But the -- my question then -- 8 perhaps I'll rephrase it is: What you heard was con -- 9 would be consistent with different OPP officers firing 10 different weapons? 11 A: There could have been other 12 explanations too, but that -- that's not inconsistent 13 with it. 14 Q: But that is -- that is consistent 15 with what you heard, right? 16 A: I don't know if the word, 17 "consistent" is right, it's not inconsistent. It's -- 18 it's not irrefutable proof that all of those weapons were 19 fired, I just know that a lot of different weapons were 20 fired. 21 Q: I'm saying, based on what you heard, 22 you don't know who fired the firearms that you heard? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: You didn't see that? 25 A: Absolutely not.


1 Q: You didn't see any muzzle flashes? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And what you heard would be 4 consistent with OPP officers firing different types of 5 firearms? 6 A: It's not inconsistent with OPP 7 officers firing those firearms. I had no idea who was 8 firing what, I just heard a lot of different types of 9 gunshots. 10 Q: I'll take that as that is consistent 11 then. If it's not inconsistent, then it's consistent, 12 right? 13 A: No, I think there's a difference 14 between those two (2). 15 Q: Okay. Well then, what is the 16 difference between those two (2)? 17 A: Because if I say it's consistent with 18 OPP officers, then that tells you that it was strictly 19 OPP officers, and I had no idea who fired what. 20 Q: No, I don't think it has that meaning 21 at all, sir. As you said, there could be other 22 explanations, but what you heard was -- could have been, 23 it could have been other things, you think, but it could 24 have been OPP officers firing their weapons and OPP 25 officers only.


1 A: It could have been. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now I'd like to ask you some 6 questions about the location of the shots that you heard, 7 and this I where, sorry, you lost me yesterday -- 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: -- and perhaps other people as well. 10 Now you told us yesterday that you had turned your head 11 and you were facing south towards the roadway. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you believe the shots started to 14 your left and responded to your right? 15 A: Not to my left. As -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: As my head was turned and looking, 18 the -- whatever it was at the start seemed to come from 19 the left side of what I was paying attention to, and then 20 responded to from the right side of what I was paying 21 attention to. 22 But exactly where that was, I can't 23 comment. It just seemed to be stronger on the left, 24 followed by stronger on the right. 25 Q: Okay. But am I correct that what you


1 heard you believed was entirely the sounds were coming 2 from an area outside of your field of vision? 3 A: I -- I couldn't see what was going 4 on. I could just hear it. 5 Q: No, I understand that. But in terms 6 of when you say left and right and what you -- you under 7 -- you believed, and you had -- you believed that there 8 was a CMU bus conglomerate, as you've called it -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- that was on the roadway outside of 11 your field of vision? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Right. And the shots that you heard 14 coming from different directions, from what you could 15 hear, it seemed to you that they were -- those shots were 16 being fired also from an area outside of your field of 17 vision, in the area of the CMU bus conglomerate? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Okay. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, I believe in other statements 24 you've -- you've talked about shots coming from the north 25 and south of the bus CMU conglomerate.


1 A: And that could be -- and I know when 2 I made this statement with Ron Pier (sic) he told me that 3 north was this way, whereas when I made my notes, north 4 was that way and I know there's an issue as far as where 5 north is in this. 6 Basically, I'm going to try and explain it 7 further. If you want to just call it the front end of 8 the bus and the back end of the bus, maybe that's a 9 better way of putting it. But -- 10 Q: Okay. Was the front end facing 11 towards the Park? 12 A: Facing away from the Park towards 13 where the Crowd Management people were. 14 Q: Towards the -- 15 A: So -- so -- 16 Q: Well you don't know where the Crowd 17 Management people were, right? It was facing towards the 18 TOC? 19 A: TOC, yes. That's good, yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And the back end was towards 21 the Park? 22 A: That's fair, yeah. 23 Q: All right. Go ahead. 24 A: So when I say left side, that would 25 be where the -- and I'm saying roughly where the back end


1 of the bus would be, and right side would be roughly 2 where the front -- I couldn't see the front end of the 3 bus but it -- to me it was just -- it started on the left 4 and responded to from the right. 5 That's the -- the feeling that I got at 6 the time. 7 Q: And we've heard testimony about shots 8 being fired by OPP officers on the -- from different 9 positions on the roadway. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: And you would agree with me that what 12 you heard would also be consistent with OPP officers 13 firing their weapons from different positions on the 14 roadway? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I'm not saying it's absolutely 19 consistent. It -- it could be, I can't -- I can't really 20 comment because I -- I had no idea exactly where each one 21 of those persons were. 22 Q: You know -- after you heard the 23 shots, I believe you told us that your concentration went 24 back to the twelve o'clock position? 25 A: Yeah, unfortunately, and part of my


1 job as a sniper is I have to make sure that where I am 2 watching, there are going to be no weapons threats from 3 that area. 4 So unfortunately, I had to leave it to the 5 officers that were in that whole mess, if you want to 6 call it that, to deal with it. 7 It was beyond my view, I couldn't help 8 them at all. So my concentration went back to watching 9 for anybody else potentially bringing firearms into the 10 brink. 11 Q: So do I understand your testimony 12 then, your role was to protect the CMU from threats such 13 as firearms? You heard shots and then you turned your 14 attention away from the area that you heard shots fired 15 from? 16 A: Oh, I see where you're going with 17 this. Yes, my job was to protect, but my job was to 18 protect the left flank. And we had Sierra 2 out to 19 protect the right flank. And we had the four (4) man 20 unit, that was with CMU, to protect the center. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: So I wasn't abandoning the job of not 23 protecting those people. If I didn't concentrate on the 24 area that I was looking at and somebody with a firearm 25 had got through, I would have been responsible for not


1 protecting those people. 2 And I've -- I've done dog tracks and I've 3 done a lot of other calls where I have had to, during a 4 firefight, turn my back to the firefight to make sure 5 that other people weren't coming from behind. 6 And that's a very, very tough thing to do, 7 because somebody is potentially going to get shot or 8 killed, and I can't concentrate on that because 9 potentially there are other people out there. And that's 10 a tough thing to turn your mind away from, but that's 11 part of the trust thing of working with people doing the 12 right thing. 13 Q: You said that your role was to 14 protect the left flank? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: But you turned your view away from 17 the left flank, did you not? You turned it ahead -- 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Okay. You've said that your role was 22 to protect the left flank, perhaps using the map that is 23 on the easel beside you, I don't remember which exhibit 24 number it is but I'm sure that will be given to me 25 momentarily.


1 Can you assist us with what area you were 2 responsible for, looking out for? It's P-1600, there 3 should be a -- a laser pointer beside you and if you 4 could use the microphone that -- the other microphone if 5 you're going to be moving. 6 A: Well I'll physically walk up to the 7 map and point. 8 Q: Okay. Sure. Mr. Commissioner, can 9 you see? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I can. 11 I have it on a monitor. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 THE WITNESS: So my position here, which 16 I think you'll from my notebook is 5 and 7 -- 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- my area to watch was into the 21 Park. What I called my twelve o'clock, what was directly 22 in front of me. A lot of the bus, CMU conglomerate, that 23 -- that whole melee happened definitely off to my right. 24 But my job was to protect basically 25 anything, well considerably off to the left up until


1 there, what I could see basically. And a lot of that 2 area I couldn't see. So if I can't see it, then I can't 3 offer any protection. 4 But certainly the area directly in front 5 of me was my responsibility. 6 Q: Directly in front of you and you've 7 motioned also to your left? 8 A: Yes. To the left to some degree -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- because if somebody had come out 11 of here with a firearm, that still would have been my 12 responsibility to check. 13 Q: Of course. Okay. So not to your 14 right at all? 15 A: If I definitely seen somebody walking 16 into the melee from in front of me, then yes, I would 17 have spent a bit more time with that. But a lot of the 18 stuff happened outside my view or off to areas through 19 bushes that I couldn't see. 20 And I also know that there's another TRU 21 team element in amongst the Crowd Management people whose 22 responsibility is to look out for that. So 23 unfortunately, I had to leave them to do that while I 24 concentrated on my area. 25 Q: Okay. I think I'm done with the map,


1 if you want to take a seat. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: So you -- you heard the shots, you 4 turned again to the twelve o'clock position looking 5 straight ahead into the Park; is that right? 6 A: I heard shots, I had my head turned 7 to sort of get a -- I hate using that term, get a sense 8 of what was going on and then concentrated back on my 9 original assignment. 10 Q: Okay. So you weren't looking even to 11 your right to see if the people were coming out of the 12 Park with -- with firearms? 13 A: Well slightly to my right at my one 14 o'clock, if I can refer to it as that, was the entrance 15 to the Park. And, in fact, that's where I saw people 16 carrying a body back to where the bus had originated come 17 out. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: That was within my view. So that was 20 withing my view, yes, I can deal with it and comment on 21 it. 22 Q: And you -- you didn't move in the 23 direction of the shots that you heard to get a closer 24 look? 25 A: No, no.


1 Q: And you didn't keep your eye on where 2 -- the direction that you heard the shots from to see if 3 you could see anything more, if it moved into your field 4 of vision? 5 A: No. I went back to watching to my 6 twelve o'clock. 7 Q: Now I would like to turn briefly to 8 the -- your observations of the -- what you -- the body, 9 the person that you saw being carried by three (3) other 10 individuals. 11 Now, I take it by your use of the term 12 'body,' it was somebody that you thought was seriously 13 injured or possibly dead; is that right? 14 A: Oh, definitely somebody seriously 15 injured, yes. The person wasn't trying to walk with 16 three (3) people, those three (3) people were carrying 17 what I believed to be a body. 18 Q: Right. And it -- so somebody that 19 you thought would be in dire need of immediate medical 20 attention? 21 A: I would think so, yes. 22 Q: And that's why you've told us you 23 were surprised that you didn't see anybody appearing to 24 give first aid to the person when they -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- they were laid on the ground? And 2 you heard the shout, "murderers," and that confirmed for 3 you that somebody was indeed very seriously injured? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I take it you believed that it 6 was a First Nation person who had been injured, not an 7 OPP officer? 8 A: I don't know if believed; I -- I 9 didn't know who. It certainly wouldn't have made sense 10 for it to be an OPP officer but I... 11 Q: Did you think it might be an OPP 12 officer? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Well of course you didn't, right? 17 A: I -- I really -- 18 Q: You would have done -- you would have 19 done something more if you would have thought that was an 20 OPP officer who had been carried into the Park? 21 A: That -- that makes sense, yes. I 22 can't remember what my exact thoughts were at the time, 23 but certainly that's a body. And if it had been a police 24 officer I probably would have spent more time trying to 25 look for a shoulder flash or something to confirm that,


1 but certainly it was an injured person that -- that I had 2 seen. 3 Q: Now, you sounded -- and I've read 4 your notes and I heard you testimony yesterday -- you 5 sounded almost as though you were being critical of the - 6 - the three (3) individuals who had carried the body and 7 put him down on the ground and not administered first 8 aid. Is -- is that fair characterization? 9 A: I don't know if "critical" is the 10 word. No. No, I was just surprised that that didn't 11 happen because all of the first aid training that I've 12 ever had has been to -- to basically try and fix the 13 problem, to stabilize and then get attention. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: And the -- the people basically set 16 the body or put the body down and then moved away from 17 it, whereas I think in any sort of situation and even the 18 ones that I've been involved in, if somebody's injured 19 you basically go tend to those people because that's -- 20 that's serious. 21 Q: All right. And what did you do to 22 help that person? 23 A: I didn't do anything to help that 24 person, we were -- 25 Q: Right.


1 A: -- withdrawing from the scene. What 2 could I do? 3 Q: Well, did you radio in to the TOC 4 centre that there was somebody who you believed was very 5 seriously injured and in need of immediate medical 6 attention? 7 A: I'm sure I called on the radio what 8 was happening, but I -- I don't remember the words. 9 Q: You -- you didn't radio in, did you, 10 that there was somebody who had been injured and was 11 carried into the Park? 12 You didn't radio that information back to 13 the TOC centre? 14 A: I -- I have no note in my notebook, 15 I can't listen to a logger recorder, but in the -- the 16 way we do work, we tell what's going on, and I'm sure I 17 mentioned what was going on. 18 Q: Do you remember doing that? 19 A: I don't remember the words said, I 20 was dealing with a major -- a major event at the time. 21 Q: But do you remember specifically that 22 you called back that there was a seriously injured First 23 Nations person who had been taken back into the Park? 24 A: I -- I don't remember the exact words 25 used, but I remember telling that a body or something had


1 been taken back. 2 Q: And when did you make that report? 3 A: Well as it happened. 4 Q: And what was the response? 5 A: I -- I don't remember. 6 Q: Well, was there going to be an 7 ambulance sent down or some sort of attempt to provide 8 medical services to that person, that you can recall? 9 A: From the police side? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: We've just had a major fight. I 12 think moving a -- a bunch of people forward to help a 13 body lying down would be perceived by other people as 14 trying to do more stuff. 15 So I think the -- the whole idea of 16 backing away to -- to make space between the two (2) 17 conflicting sides made a lot more sense than -- than any 18 of that sort of stuff. 19 Q: So the priority, as you understood 20 it, was for the CMU and TRU to back out of the area? 21 A: Disengagement, to allow for whatever 22 needed to be done to -- to fix up on both sides. 23 Q: Could you turn up your -- your notes 24 again? If you prefer to use your original notebook, I'm 25 interested on the entry on September 10th, 1995, page 41.


1 It's at Tab 11 of the Commission documents which have 2 been marked as P-1601. 3 A: I'm sorry, could you take me back to 4 which document we're talking here? 5 Q: Your -- your handwritten notes from 6 September 10th, 1995. It's page 41 of your book. 7 A: Okay. I've got it. 8 Q: Do you have it? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And in the top half you have a 11 heading, "Briefing Skinner." 12 Do you see that? 13 A: Yes, about a third of the way down 14 the -- 15 Q: That's right. 16 A: -- the whole page? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then you have a series of 20 numbered points. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Yes, I got that, yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And can I take it then, the


1 numbered points represent your notes on the briefing that 2 you received from Sergeant Skinner? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Now I'm interested in point number 4, 5 as part of your briefing on Sunday the 10th of September, 6 1995. It says: 7 "Liquor stores almost sold out." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that was part of your briefing on 10 that day? 11 A: I presume so, if I made a -- 12 Q: Right. 13 A: -- point of it. 14 Q: And what was the source of that 15 knowledge? Was that an intelligent report -- 16 intelligence report or...? 17 A: I've got no idea. Skinner told us 18 and -- and that was it. 19 Q: And I take it the reason you've noted 20 in your notes and the reason it was part of the briefing, 21 was because that was information that was considered 22 relevant to the policing situation in the area? 23 A: I can't comment to why, but basically 24 it was one of the points that was given to us, so I wrote 25 it in my notebook.


1 Q: And the implication, obviously, was 2 that it was -- you understood that it was believed that 3 the First Nations people were buying up all the liquor 4 that was -- 5 A: No, not necessarily. 6 Q: No? 7 A: My -- my take on that was that the 8 liquor stores were almost sold out. That could be 9 anybody going there. 10 Q: Is that what you took at the time, 11 that it could be anybody? 12 A: I didn't... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I don't know if I formed an opinion 17 at the time. Basically, the liquor stores were almost 18 sold out; that was it. I moved on -- 19 Q: And that was information that was 20 considered relevant for policing of the Ipperwash 21 situation? 22 A: Obviously somebody considered it 23 relevant because it was given to us. 24 Q: I just have one (1) or two (2) very 25 brief questions about the pin. I shall not go over area


1 that has already been covered by others, but I don't 2 believe you've been asked if you actually have a pin? 3 A: The -- the pin with -- 4 Q: The pin that was -- 5 A: -- Ken's badge number? I have had a 6 pin and I don't know where it is right now. I may still 7 have it. 8 Q: Okay. And some follow up questions 9 then on that: 10 How did you obtain the pin? 11 A: I would have got it from somebody, 12 but I don't remember whom. 13 Q: Do you remember the context in which 14 you received it? 15 A: I think it was -- and I'm thinking 16 here, it's supposition that it was basically in support 17 of Ken's Appeal. 18 Q: Okay. And you -- you've talked about 19 seeing people wearing the pin, but you've worn it 20 yourself? 21 A: Yes, I did. I wore it at his funeral 22 service -- 23 Q: Right. 24 A: -- in London. 25 Q: And apart from the funeral service,


1 have you seen other people wearing that pin in the last 2 year? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Other -- and I'll say other OPP 7 officers, just to be more specific? 8 A: I can't say in the last year. I've 9 seen other OPP officers, I've seen civilians that I know 10 were not police officers wearing it. 11 I've seen a lot of people in different 12 places, but I can't comment as to when or what time. 13 Q: Okay. And are you aware of a T-shirt 14 that says the words -- says the following words or words 15 to the effect, I support Kenneth Deane? 16 A: Yes. I've seen a T-shirt like that, 17 yeah. 18 Q: And do you own such a T-shirt? 19 A: I don't think so. I don't remember. 20 Q: Well you've seen -- have you seen 21 other OPP officers wearing such a T-shirt? 22 A: I've seen a lot of other people 23 wearing that T-shirt, not specifically police officers? 24 Q: But you have seen police officers 25 wearing that --


1 A: Yes, I have. 2 Q: -- T-shirt? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And when did you first see that T- 5 shirt? Was it in 1995? 6 A: I don't remember when I first saw it. 7 Q: Okay. Was it before the year 2000? 8 A: I don't know. 9 Q: Was it before the year 2004? 10 A: I really don't remember. 11 Q: Is there anything on the T-shirt 12 apart from those words? 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Thank 15 you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 17 Ms. Esmonde. 18 Mr. Scullion...? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 23 Commissioner. 24 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION:


1 Q: Good morning, Sergeant Irvine. 2 A: Good morning. 3 Q: My name's Kevin Scullion and I'm one 4 (1) of the counsel for the Residents of Aazhoodena also 5 known as the Stoney Point Group. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: Okay. And just to give you a little 8 bit extra information, from your map that you were 9 referring to earlier where you have the Park in your 10 twelve o'clock vision, there's been much reference to the 11 incident with the bus and the car on the roadway. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And if you -- if you just take a look 14 at your map there from where you're positioned, the 15 incident with the car and bus, and I think we can all 16 agree, is in about your three o'clock, four o'clock, or 17 five o'clock position on the roadway, okay? 18 A: The map you're referring to is the -- 19 the one on the board? 20 Q: The one behind you, P-1600. 21 A: Okay. My twelve o'clock from this 22 position was in this direction which is -- 23 Q: You're pointing straight into the 24 Park from your position? 25 A: Around where that one eight two point


1 six (182.6) number is. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: So therefore, my three o'clock would 4 be down here, nine o'clock to the north/northwest, and 5 then six o'clock straight behind me. 6 Does that clarify things? 7 Q: That's the num -- numerical system I 8 was using and I'm just adding some information that we 9 have significant information from all involved that this 10 school bus/car incident was at your three o'clock/four 11 o'clock position? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay? 14 A: And I think I've referred to in my -- 15 in my notes -- 16 Q: I agree. 17 A: -- as around three o'clock. 18 Q: I agree. The reason why you couldn't 19 see any of what was going on on the roadway was the fact 20 that there was bush and trees and other obstacles in your 21 way, correct? 22 A: That's correct, yes. 23 Q: And the reason why you picked your 24 observation post there was so that you had the best 25 possible view in your opinion of the Park area, correct?


1 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. You picked that position 4 because that gave you the best view in order to do your 5 job which was observation, correct? 6 A: Observation and to protect if there 7 had been a -- a weapons threat. 8 Q: Right, if there was a weapon. And 9 you didn't see any weapon, correct? 10 A: I didn't see any firearms. 11 Q: Right. So it was an observation post 12 for you, correct? 13 A: Well, observation and an area of 14 cover for protection. 15 Q: Okay. From that position when you're 16 looking in a twelve o'clock view you're able to see the 17 campfire a little bit to the right at the gate, correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And all the way to the left down to 20 the lake, at least to the extent that it's not covered 21 again by shrubbery or trees? 22 A: I don't think I ever saw the lake 23 through there but certainly in that direction. 24 Q: All right. And your night vision -- 25 there's been some discussion about the use of your night


1 vision and whether or not it was affected by various 2 lights that might have been there. 3 In your view was your night vision working 4 that evening, at least to the extent that it should be 5 working in your view? 6 A: It was working properly, yes. 7 Q: All right. It wasn't, quote, "not 8 working" to the extent that you would report that back to 9 the TOC Centre? 10 A: No, there was no defect in the 11 equipment if that's what you're -- what you mean. 12 Q: That's what I'm asking. You were 13 also asked questions about your three (3) times 14 magnification, do your remember that, by Ms. Esmonde? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: You can sit down now if you -- 17 A: Thank you. 18 Q: -- wish. If you can turn to your Tab 19 13 page 9. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Do you that before you? It's P-1603, 24 page 9, Tab 13. 25 A: Tab 13, excuse me. Yes, I have that


1 page now. 2 Q: Okay. Halfway down you have the 3 comment: "In this case I ah, perhaps a 4 three (3) powered magnification in the 5 night vision so I can see a little 6 closer." 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that was accurate, correct? 9 A: A little closer, yes. There's -- 10 there's some inaudible written there and I, without 11 referring to my taped thing, I can't say what was said 12 after that. 13 But that's fair, yes. 14 Q: But your recollection is that 15 regardless of whether there's lights that are going 16 across your field of vision, you were able to see a 17 little bit closer because of this magnification? 18 A: A little bit closer, yes. 19 Q: Okay. And it was good enough for you 20 that you could see what was happening and that's why you 21 took that observation post for the point of watching the 22 people in the Park. 23 A: I'm sorry, can you rephrase that 24 please? 25 Q: I'll --


1 A: Or say it again. 2 Q: It's okay. I'll move on from that 3 particular question. 4 The sounds of gunfire that you heard, the 5 bus wasn't in your field of vision at that point and 6 time, correct? 7 A: No. That's correct. I was watching 8 twelve o'clock and there was gunfire, I glanced to my 9 right; the bus was off there somewhere, but I can't say 10 exactly where it was. 11 Q: Right. I just wanted to clarify. 12 You were looking at the twelve o'clock field of view when 13 you heard these gunshots, correct? 14 A: I was -- yeah I was watching the Park 15 area somewhere when I heard the gunshots. 16 Q: Right. And your followup information 17 on whether it's to the left or the right is more of a 18 guess on your part, correct? 19 A: No. A single gunshot would certainly 20 attract your attention. So put yourself in my position 21 for a second here. You hear a gunshot off to the right, 22 it doesn't take long to quickly glance around to the 23 right to see if that's something that's close to you, far 24 away; whether in fact it's a threat to yourself. 25 So if I'm looking at twelve o'clock and I


1 hear a single gunshot followed by a rattle or I hear a 2 rattle of gunshots, it's going to draw my attention very 3 quickly when I had to force myself to get back to the 4 twelve o'clock thereafter -- 5 Q: Well I appreciate that. And your job 6 is to watch the twelve o'clock for any weapons, correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: So you hear a gunshot, you turn your 9 head and that's when you say you heard more -- or the 10 sounds to the left. 11 A: It's not like I heard a single 12 gunshot and then turned. I just heard shots. I glanced 13 around and my perception was that of that general area 14 the first shots seemed to be from the left and this -- 15 the followup or the further res -- shots were from the 16 right. 17 Q: Further noises that you heard were 18 further -- 19 A: Further shots, yes. 20 Q: All right. And to use your terms, 21 it's not inconsistent that there's an echo at that point 22 in time that you hear; is that possible? 23 A: An echo? 24 Q: An echo of the gunshots. 25 A: I didn't use that term.


1 Q: No, but is it -- what you heard 2 inconsistent with an echo having occur? 3 A: I -- I'm pretty sure that was not an 4 echo. It just sounded like a lot of shooting. 5 Q: All right. In any event, you hear 6 the shots, you turn back to the twelve o'clock position 7 and you watch very closely, I suggest, to see whether or 8 not there are any weapons in anyone's hands when people 9 run towards the campfire and run back. 10 A: Yes. My responsibility is to make 11 sure that if -- if I see firearms, I'm going to be 12 dealing with firearms, calling it in and so on. I was 13 watching every person to make sure that they were not 14 bringing firearms. 15 Q: Right. And in -- in your mind at 16 that point in time, you've already been briefed about AK- 17 47's, mini-Rugers and other weapons that could be in the 18 hands of the people in the Park, correct? 19 A: Yes. Yes, I had information. 20 Q: And your previous dealings as a TRU 21 team member also, and I'm going back to notes that we 22 were provided with yesterday morning, you also had 23 information back in 1994 that they might have grenade 24 launchers. 25 Do you remember giving that evidence?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And I -- I'm assisted by 3 Mr. Millar, it's P-1596. 4 And also there's a note on the first 5 anniversary of the Natives taking Ipperwash from the 6 Military, that there's information from intelligence on 7 weapons to be smuggled in from New Jersey. 8 You had that information back in '94? 9 A: Yes. Hmm hmm. 10 Q: So as soon as you hear gunfire 11 occurring, you're watching the people in the Park with 12 that kind of information in your head, correct? 13 A: Oh yes, I'm thinking -- looking to 14 make sure that none of these actual items appear. 15 Q: Right. And you've got a full view 16 from as we've said, the campfire all the way back down to 17 the area of the lake, correct? 18 A: I wouldn't say a full view because I 19 could not see the lake. But from the campfire off to my 20 11:00, maybe 10:30, somewhere in that general area in the 21 clock -- 22 Q: Right. And all the time that you're 23 watching these people running around in the Park, 24 grabbing weapons; grabbing sticks, grabbing clubs and an 25 axe handle that you referred to, you didn't see one (1)


1 firearm in anyone's possession, correct? 2 A: I did not see one (1) firearm in 3 anyone's possession. 4 Q: Now, just with respect to the bus, 5 you testified that you saw two (2) people get on the bus 6 at some point after the bus went forward beside the 7 campfire, do you remember giving that evidence? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now, I've gone through your 10 statements that you've given to various people along the 11 way and in one (1) of those statements, you say that it 12 was for a brief second that you saw people get onto the 13 bus and you couldn't say whether or not they stayed on 14 the bus or got off the bus again. 15 A: Yes. The bus drew up. I happened to 16 be looking at the time. I saw two (2) people getting on 17 to the bus and busses don't drive themselves, so 18 obviously that means there's a driver, two (2) people. 19 Neither of those persons had a firearm, so 20 I went back to -- 21 Q: Right. 22 A: -- looking at everybody else. 23 Q: Quick -- quick glance at the bus and 24 then look away at other areas, correct? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And you can't say whether or not the 2 people that you say you saw get on the bus were still on 3 the bus when it moved out into the parking lot and down 4 the road? 5 A: I have no idea about that. 6 Q: All right. But you didn't see any 7 weapons on the people that you say got on the bus at that 8 point in time? 9 A: The two (2) people that got on the 10 bus, I -- I did not see a weapon. 11 Q: Okay. Did one (1) of the people 12 getting on the bus have a dog with them? 13 A: I don't remember seeing a dog 14 anywhere there. 15 Q: Right. You would have noted that if 16 you saw two (2) people getting on with a dog? 17 A: I would think so, but I certainly 18 don't remember it. 19 Q: All right. Do you recall any details 20 of the two (2) people that you say got on to the bus; 21 whether they were children, adults, male, female? 22 A: They weren't children. They were 23 grown people. Whether they were female or male I can't 24 say, but they certainly weren't kids. 25 Q: All right. So grown adults you saw


1 get on the bus at that point in time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Now, on September the 4 7th, after this incident you walked back to the TOC area, 5 correct, with the rest of the TRU squad? 6 A: On the 7th? 7 Q: The morning of the 7th. This 8 occurred the night of the 6th. 9 A: Yes. No, actually, basically just 10 after this particular incident happened, we withdrew and 11 at that stage we went back to the TOC. 12 Q: All right, at that stage. Let's 13 leave it at late in the night on September the 6th. You 14 walked back to the TOC with the rest of the TRU team and 15 had discussions at that point in time with Sergeant 16 Skinner? 17 A: I don't remember discussions at that 18 time. It was basically, we're back here, let's make sure 19 that nothing else is going to happen. 20 So at that stage, Dave Strickler and I 21 went to the beach in case people were walking down the 22 beach -- 23 Q: You were re-assigned? 24 A: I'm sorry? 25 Q: You were re-assigned?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: You ended up at the hotel later that 3 morning, is that correct? That's where you stayed that 4 day? 5 A: No, I -- give me a second. I think 6 we went back to the Pinery. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: No, I'm assisted by Mr. Millar that 11 you went back on duty at two o'clock. I'm just asking 12 whether or not when you went off duty which was that 13 morning, you went back to a hotel? 14 A: No. I've got here, back to 15 barracks -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And then in brackets, accommodation. 18 So that would mean Pinery Park. 19 Q: All right. So you went back to the 20 Pinery Park and you were aware that other members of the 21 TRU team went back to a hotel that morning? 22 A: I remember going back to Pinery Park 23 and there were members of TRU with me. 24 Q: Was Officer Zupancic with you that 25 morning?


1 A: I don't remember. 2 Q: You know Officer Zupancic? 3 A: Yes, I do. I've known him for -- 4 Q: Right. 5 A: -- a considerable time. 6 Q: In your statement to the SUI, page 7 17, you refer to Constable Zupancic and the fact that the 8 TRU recording system wasn't working that evening. 9 Do you remember that type of information 10 being given to you? 11 A: Yes. My understanding after the 12 whole thing was over that the -- the logger recorder 13 which we always have going didn't work and I -- I can't 14 comment to how or why but I certainly understood 15 afterwards that it didn't work. 16 Q: No, I'm not going to get into how or 17 why, I just want to know when you learned that the 18 recording system for TRU wasn't working that evening? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I -- I can't remember when I found 23 that out. 24 Q: If I could turn quickly to the issue 25 of the T-shirts you were asked a number of questions


1 about the T-shirts and about an investigation that was 2 occurring with respect to the T-shirts. 3 Do you remember that line of questioning 4 from both Mr. Millar -- 5 A: I remember the questioning, yes. 6 Q: -- and Mr. Falconer this morning? 7 And questions were asked about whether you were asked 8 directly by the investigators and you answered no. 9 Do you remember that? 10 A: I remember that, yes. 11 Q: Right. When did you become aware 12 that an investigation was occurring with respect to T- 13 shirts regarding this event? 14 A: I don't know. 15 Q: Was it at the time the investigation 16 was occurring or was it well after? 17 A: I don't know. 18 Q: Okay. Can you provide an explanation 19 as to why you didn't simply provide your T-shirt to those 20 investigators? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I don't know. 25 Q: You'd agree with me that it would


1 have assisted in an investigation into the T-shirts if 2 they'd received your T-shirt, correct? 3 A: If they were looking for the specific 4 T-shirt that I had I would say yes, but if -- and I'm 5 getting into supposition here. 6 Q: I'm just asking you why you didn't 7 turn your T-shirt in to the investigation that was 8 occurring? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said he 10 didn't know; that was his answer. 11 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He didn't know? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said, "I 13 don't know." I think that's what you said. 14 THE WITNESS: I might not even have had 15 the T-shirt then, I -- I really don't know. I can't 16 answer that. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 19 Q: And then lastly, at the end of your 20 evidence yesterday you talked about various 21 recommendations and thoughts that you and your cohorts 22 had to suggest to the Commission. 23 Do you remember giving that evidence? 24 A: Yes. Yes, sir. 25 Q: And you worked off a piece of paper


1 that you had prepared in advance, correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. I take it that the 4 comments that you made were as a result of your 5 discussions with your cohorts, correct? 6 A: No, a lot of that came from 7 Commission Counsel when we had an interview back in 8 Toronto. 9 Q: But the comments that you made were 10 as a result of discussions that you had with your 11 cohorts, correct? 12 A: Who are my cohorts? 13 Q: Let me just read you what your answer 14 was and then we can go from there. You said: 15 "When you're asking originally how it 16 affected me I know that we had -- we, 17 my cohorts and myself, had thought 18 about how to better and more thoroughly 19 plan and prepare for such events in the 20 future." 21 And then you went on and gave various 22 suggestions. 23 A: Okay. I think you're -- you're 24 joining two (2) points together here. I remember Mr. 25 Millar asked me how I felt afterwards and to me at often


1 times we'd debrief calls when we're allowed, once we've 2 had a successful resolution to see how we can do things 3 better and I think I answered that question with my 4 cohorts into how to deal with better an issue such as 5 this. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: The -- the points on paper that I 8 read from are not in relation to that. I think you've -- 9 you've connected two (2) points there together. 10 Q: Well, that's fine and I'm asking for 11 clarification. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: And we've heard that there was no 14 formal debriefing that followed this event, correct? 15 A: That's correct, because of an SIU 16 investigation and so on. 17 Q: Right, but do I understand from you 18 that there was an informal debriefing where you and your 19 cohorts got together and discussed how to better plan for 20 something like this in the future? 21 A: No, because I think that would be 22 discussed if called a debriefing. Normally we get 23 together and talk about these things after the person's 24 been apprehended and, you know, how did you find your 25 position? Could you have done this better? Could we


1 have done that better? 2 But in a case like this we were told we 3 were not going to discuss it because SIU's obviously 4 going to investigate this. I understand there's a -- a 5 death and obviously that is going to be investigated by 6 SIU. 7 Q: Right. You don't like my term, 8 "informal debrief," correct? 9 A: I -- I don't like the way you put it, 10 it's almost like you're making suggestions here. I -- I 11 don't like that term. 12 Q: Again, cross-examination allows me to 13 do that. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You had discussions with your cohorts 16 on how to better deal with these situations in the 17 future, correct? 18 A: I've had discussions with a lot of 19 other OPP people about what happened on that night. I 20 didn't necessarily discuss it with the TRU Team members 21 at that time. But this is ten (10) years ago now so I've 22 discussed a lot of things with a lot of different people 23 as to -- and basically these are the points that I 24 brought up yesterday, things that I think would be 25 important.


1 Q: All right. So I take from your 2 answer that not only have you talked with other members 3 of your TRU Team, but you've talked with other OPP 4 members about these various issues? 5 A: I don't think we've ever officially 6 had a TRU team debrief of the whole thing because it's 7 still -- it's still before the courts. 8 Q: All right. You appreciate that's not 9 the question that I asked you. 10 A: No. No, I think you're trying to pin 11 me to something that I -- I don't be pinned. You're 12 suggesting that we have -- the TRU team people have 13 debriefed then and I don't -- I don't think we have. 14 Q: Again, you don't like my word 15 'discussion'. You've had discussions with other TRU team 16 members and other members of the OPP about what happened 17 that evening, correct? 18 A: Yes, I have, yes. 19 Q: All right. One (1) of your 20 recommendations was that it could have been better dealt 21 with by the Federal Government, having dealt with all the 22 issues before our involvement. 23 And then you went on to say that it 24 shouldn't have been a police matter. Do you remember 25 giving that recommendation?


1 A: Yes, I did, yes. 2 Q: All right. You appreciate that the 3 Provincial -- or the Ipperwash Provincial Park was seen 4 to be at least from a legal point of view, Provincial 5 land, correct? 6 A: Yes, I agree with you. 7 Q: All right. So can I put into that, 8 not only should the Federal Government have dealt with it 9 earlier, but also the Provincial Government dealt with it 10 as a political issue. 11 A: I certainly can't disagree. It -- it 12 should have been dealt with at the Government level as 13 opposed to a police level. Because we certainly couldn't 14 solve any land claim as police officers. 15 Q: All right. And again, you're not 16 disagreeing with me, are you agreeing with me? 17 A: Make the statement and let me hear it 18 please. 19 Q: Well I just made the statement and do 20 you agree that the Provincial Government should be added 21 to your recommendation of Governments having dealt with 22 this as a political issue? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And is that something 25 that you talked with your cohorts about?


1 A: I -- I know I've mentioned it to 2 several people over the while. Not necessarily police 3 officers. I've discussed it with a few people. 4 Q: Let's stick with the police officers. 5 Did any of the police officers disagree with you when you 6 mentioned that idea? 7 A: I don't -- I don't think so. 8 Q: You also mentioned and I'll suggest 9 to you that it was a criticism of how the media has dealt 10 with this issue along the way? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And it was a criticism, 13 wasn't it? 14 A: Yes. I -- I have an issue with the 15 media that stems probably from way before this. 16 Q: Right. And let's leave the Park, 17 what your history is with the media. With regards to the 18 particular incident, if you're critical of how they've 19 dealt with the issues in the eleven (11) years 20 subsequent, correct? 21 A: Not so much the issues. But the -- 22 the report -- the reporting of what's gone on in the 23 courts, or what's gone on around the area I -- I think 24 the media often takes only one (1) side. 25 And as a police officer, I don't have a


1 voice or an opinion. So the -- the OPP doesn't want me 2 to go talking to the media. 3 And quite honestly, I don't have a -- a 4 trust of them anyway having been involved in events where 5 they've reported and I thought that's terrible and then 6 realize that that's an event that I was just involved in. 7 Q: You're aware that the OPP rushed to 8 get a press release out before the SIU took over this 9 investigation of the issue, correct? 10 A: I'm not aware of it. I think it's 11 standard but I'm not aware of it. 12 Q: You're not aware that they rushed to 13 get a press release out before it was turned over to the 14 SIU? 15 You've never been advised of that? 16 A: I don't remember it. 17 Q: So you could have been advised of it, 18 you just don't remember that? 19 A: That's possible. 20 Q: All right. So that doesn't factor 21 into your criticism of the media in this regard, the fact 22 that you were able to get a press release into the media 23 with the OPP version of events within hours of it 24 occurring. 25 A: My criticisms of the media is not


1 within the hours, it's just basically over the last ten 2 (10) years. Because various events have been -- I'm 3 sorry, various court proceedings have happened over the 4 last ten (10) or so years. 5 And how the media reports those things is 6 -- is what I have a problem with. I don't think all of 7 the facts come out all of the time. 8 Q: All right. With regards to the 9 incident that occurred, is it your view that the problem 10 really started to occur when the people -- the protesters 11 came out into the parking lot with sticks and clubs? 12 A: The whole problem? The whole problem 13 started when people said they had a land claim and it 14 wasn't dealt with by the Government. 15 Q: And the OPP was called in to deal 16 with it, correct? 17 A: Well I -- I disagree. We're not 18 brought in to deal with a land claim. We're brought in 19 to deal with disorderly behaviour associated to it 20 definitely. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I want to 22 remind you, Mr. Scullion, you're at the end of your time 23 limit; but I hope you're getting close to concluding. 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's an opportune 25 comment because I am concluding.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, okay. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 4 Q: In your view, did the shirt that you 5 purchased represent this operation being a success from 6 the OPP's point of view? 7 A: Well, it wasn't a success. We did 8 not hold ground, we did not arrest a lot of people who 9 were trying to hurt us. Basically it was almost a 10 withdrawal. 11 The T-shirt to me represents that we 12 survived a lot of people trying to hurt us seriously or 13 kill us. MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Those are all my 14 questions, Mr. Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 16 Mr. Scullion. 17 Ms. Johnson, do you still have some 18 questions? 19 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I do. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Could you 24 make a reasonable realistic current estimate of how long 25 you might be, please?


1 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Twenty (20) minutes 2 to half an hour still. 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 5 Q: Good afternoon -- good morning, sir. 6 A: Good morning. 7 Q: I thought we'd been here longer than 8 we have. 9 My name's Colleen Johnson. I'm attending 10 here today on behalf of the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony 11 Point as well as the Chiefs of Ontario. 12 I'll take you just for a moment to the 13 events of that evening and I'm just going to ask you of 14 the evening of the 6th of September, were you able to see 15 the punchout at all? 16 A: I know that's the CMU operation, but 17 no, I wasn't. 18 Q: Okay. That was not at all in your 19 line of vision? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: So at no time did you have sight of 22 the individual who was arrested? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. Now, would you agree with me 25 that you were probably one of the more experienced


1 officers with the TRU team there that evening? 2 A: I'm just thinking of who involved in 3 -- yes, I think I was. 4 Q: And you indicated that you had worked 5 with Kenneth Deane since 1989; is that correct? 6 A: Since 1989, yes. 7 Q: And had you worked with other 8 officers with the TRU team for a significant period of 9 time that were in attendance that evening? 10 A: Yes, I had. 11 Q: Who had you worked with for a long 12 period of time that was there with you that evening? 13 A: Well, Mark Beauchesne -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: I think he started around 1990, so 16 draw the years from that. Bill Klym, I'm not sure when 17 he started with TRU -- 18 Q: I'm sorry. 19 A: Bill Klym. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: Basically since his time in the 22 London TRU team. I can't say when he started, but for -- 23 Q: That's fine. 24 A: -- some time, anyway. I think Dave 25 Strickler was relatively new, perhaps a year. I could be


1 off in my guesstimate here. 2 Rick Zupancic since '89, Kent Skinner I've 3 known since it would have been '89 or '88 perhaps. Mark 4 McCormad-- McCormack, I'm sorry, for at least two (2) 5 years but probably longer. 6 Q: And would you agree, sir, that when 7 you're a police officer often you associate on your off 8 duty hours with other police officers as well? 9 A: I wouldn't say often, but sometimes. 10 Q: Would you agree that those people 11 would be within your circle of friends? 12 A: Yeah, I guess there's a friendship, 13 yes. Not close friends, but friends. 14 Q: People that you would get together 15 and have a beer, as you characterize, with Kenneth Deane, 16 on occasion? 17 A: Yes, on occasion. 18 Q: Okay. Now, you've characterized the 19 events of that evening as being traumatic. 20 A: They were. They were like nothing 21 I'd been involved in before. 22 Q: But you've also stated that you were 23 not traumatized by those events. 24 A: Yes, and thinking of that, I wasn't 25 traumatized to the extent that I couldn't function any


1 more and I've seen people that have been to that effect, 2 but definitely it -- it shook me. 3 Q: Sir, you indicated you were not 4 traumatized because you'd been involved in another -- a 5 number or enough other situations prior to that. 6 A: Yeah, I've been involved in several 7 other serious situations. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: So I was able to function and to keep 10 carrying on. 11 Q: Okay. And that goes again to your 12 length of service, would you agree? 13 A: To experience, yes. 14 Q: Yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now, you've indicated on a number of 19 occasions yesterday and today that there were people 20 there trying to do serious harm to you and -- and the OPP 21 that were in attendance that day? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And you would agree with me 24 that you only saw a portion of what was happening; is 25 that correct?


1 A: I saw a very small part I think of 2 what was happening. 3 Q: And I believe at some point in your 4 notes you indicate that when you arrived there they were 5 spoiling for a fight, talking about the Native 6 protestors? 7 A: That's the feeling I got just from 8 the -- the comments and the yells and the -- the crowd, 9 almost a crowd mentality. 10 Q: Okay. And you would agree though 11 that they did not come looking for you, that -- that it 12 was the CMU accompanied by other members of the OPP who - 13 - who went to them, to the protestors? 14 A: People were originally out before I 15 even got in position looking for me, looking for police 16 officers; that's what the ERT guys had told us and the 17 Sierra 2 I believe. But once I got to that position of 18 the house I -- I don't think people knew that I was there 19 so I -- I don't think they were looking for me in 20 particular. 21 Q: But the protestors didn't come 22 marching to TOC looking for OPP officers, correct, the 23 OPP went marching to the Park? 24 A: I -- I know the OPP went marching 25 toward the Park; I'm not sure where they were going.


1 Q: Well, to the parking lot anyway, to 2 the sandy parking lot? 3 A: To the -- yeah, what you refer to as 4 the sandy area, the parking lot. 5 Q: Yes. And so very much that evening 6 as the events progressed there was an us against them 7 mentality; would you agree with that, being OPP against 8 the protestors? 9 That's the situation you were in; is that 10 correct? 11 A: It was definitely divided into two 12 (2) sides. 13 Q: Two (2) opposing parties? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And then afterwards the next day, the 16 7th of September, you're aware that there's number 1 an 17 individual who's lost his life; is that correct? 18 A: I think I found out that day. 19 Q: Okay. You're aware that there's a 20 significant amount of bad press out there as well; would 21 you agree? 22 A: I don't know about that because I 23 don't read the newspapers when I can avoid it. Basically 24 when I finished that day I went to sleep because I'd -- 25 Q: You --


1 A: -- been up for a considerable time. 2 Q: That's fair. You went and you went 3 to sleep; you were -- you were exhausted, okay. 4 Maybe a little keyed up as well? 5 A: I think it had time to come down 6 because obviously that event happened in the -- the 7 previous evening. I was still on duty until relieved at 8 the -- the beach area so I don't think I was still on an 9 adrenaline rush at that stage; pumped up, still trying to 10 figure out how it all made sense likely. 11 Q: Did you have conversations with other 12 officers on the 7th of September regarding the bad press 13 that the OPP was receiving? 14 A: I don't remember. 15 Q: Do you remember any conversations 16 you've had with other officers regarding the bad press 17 that the OPP was receiving? 18 A: At that particular time? 19 Q: Now. At all. 20 A: Oh, I -- even now I'm disappointed I 21 think is the way how -- and as I mentioned earlier I as a 22 police officer am not entitled to an opinion oftentimes 23 and the media can go and talk to whomever they want. 24 And unfortunately you don't get two (2) 25 sides of the story and it seems to be just one (1) side


1 so yes, I -- I've had talks with all kinds of people over 2 the last how many years of my life doing that. 3 Q: Have you specifically had 4 conversations with your team members who were there that 5 evening with you regarding the bad press? 6 A: I don't remember. 7 Q: Have you specifically had 8 conversations with your team members regarding how to 9 portray TRU's involvement that evening in a better light? 10 A: No, I -- I don't remember that. 11 Q: Do you recall having conversations 12 with your team members the day of the 7th or any time 13 after that regarding TRU being victimized by the Native 14 protestors there? 15 A: I don't remember that. 16 Q: Do you recall having conversation 17 with any of your members regarding -- ensuring that you 18 focus on the bus and the car attacking you and not you 19 attacking them? 20 A: I don't remember. If -- if it helps 21 you where you're going with these questions, basically, I 22 took time to make my notes by myself. Does that describe 23 or help you at all or...? 24 Q: I'm finished with those questions, 25 sir.


1 A: Okay. 2 Q: Did you have conversations with 3 people prior to making those notes though? 4 A: I don't remember. 5 Q: You'd agree on that evening it was an 6 us against them situation? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's already 8 said that earlier. You asked him. 9 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: It's -- I'm laying 10 foundation for the next part. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 13 Q: You've already indicated -- 14 A: Those -- those are your terms, the us 15 against them. To me it was police against a disorderly 16 group. 17 Q: That's fine. That's fair. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And then as the press gets bad, would 20 you agree that you stay -- that the group of you somewhat 21 stay in that mode because now you're -- you're being 22 investigated by SIU, there are charges being laid against 23 one of your 24 co-workers, all of those things continue in your minds 25 that there are people -- that you really are under


1 attack? 2 A: I think I'm fearful that all of the 3 facts aren't going to come out. Are we under attack? I 4 think the media can be a big part of that; if the media 5 chooses to portray one side as opposed to another, then 6 there's a huge disadvantage there. 7 But are we under attack? No, I think it's 8 a matter of just getting the facts out, getting the truth 9 out. 10 Q: Are you telling me that you're here 11 today working hard to bring all of the facts out to the 12 Commissioner. 13 A: Well that's what this is all about, 14 isn't it? 15 Q: It is, sir. My impression from you 16 though is that you will tell us what we ask you. Am I 17 wrong in that impression? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 19 think that's a proper question. 20 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: My question is -- 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But that's not a fair 22 question. That's what the -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not a 24 fair question. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's what a witness


1 is here for, is to answer the questions asked by counsel. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 3 right. You ask the questions, Ms. Johnson, and he 4 answers them. 5 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: That's fine. That 6 was my last question. Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. 9 Do you have any examination, Mr. 10 Alexander? 11 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Very briefly. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Very 13 briefly? How brief, so we can start thinking about the 14 next witness? 15 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I estimated fifteen 16 (15) to thirty (30) minutes. I estimate to be less than 17 fifteen (15) minutes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 23 Q: Good morning, Sergeant Irvine. 24 A: Good morning. 25 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm


1 one of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George and 2 several members of the George Family, including Sam 3 George who is sitting here beside me. 4 Most of my areas have been covered, but I 5 do have a few inquiries that I do want to ask you about 6 and some follow-up questions from other cross- 7 examinations. 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: To start off with, I'm going to be -- 10 I want to focus on the evening of September the 6th and 11 your deployment in the early evening to the sandy -- to 12 the area that has been on the maps and we've been 13 discussing in terms of East Parkway, Army Camp Road and 14 the sandy parking lot. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: Now as I understand you were a Sierra 17 team that evening, correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And your role was to basically 20 observe and gather intelligence, initially, and then once 21 the CMU came down the road, your role then changed to 22 protecting officers. 23 A: Essentially, that's right. We were 24 there for an intelligence observation at the start and 25 once everything changed and the CMU came up, we were


1 still looking for stuff, but protection as well, yes. 2 Q: Now the reason I'm asking is, is when 3 you were initially deployed, you were trying to get an 4 eye on the Park. But from what I understand from your 5 notes and your evidence, you were not able to get into 6 position or get an eye on the Park because of the things 7 that you've discussed in your notes. 8 A: That's correct, yes. 9 Q: And even though you still didn't have 10 -- you didn't have an eye on the Park or were not in 11 position, you got the information that CMU was being 12 deployed, correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then CMU caught up to you, and 15 that's in your notes, and then you and your partner moved 16 parallel along that -- along with the CMU at that point. 17 A: Yes, to their left side. 18 Q: Now if I understand it correctly, 19 once the CMU had caught up at that point, you're no 20 longer doing intelligence at that point or getting an eye 21 on the Park in terms of reporting information back. 22 Your primary role is to protect the 23 officers, correct? 24 A: That's -- that's good, yes. 25 Q: Okay. And hence, we don't see any


1 intelligence that ends up getting reported back as a 2 result of it, because you never were able to get an eye 3 on the Park. 4 A: Well, realistically, if I'd seen 5 something, likely they would have at the same time, so -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: -- there's nothing new that I can 8 report to other people; we're all seeing the same thing 9 at the same time. 10 Q: Now I want to move a little bit 11 ahead. Now people have talked to you about the gunfire 12 and I don't intend to go over that area again. 13 The only thing I want to check with you is 14 the car. The -- based on what I've heard and in terms of 15 the notes that I've read and the diagram you have up, 16 which I believe is Exhibit P-1600 -- yeah, P-1600, you 17 only saw the vehicle inside the Park, you didn't see the 18 vehicle exit the Park; is that correct? 19 A: Yes. I saw the vehicle behind the 20 bus in that general area, but I didn't spend a lot of 21 time at it. 22 Q: No, no and I -- I -- I'm not 23 criticizing you or -- I just want to try to ascertain 24 what you saw, and it -- my impression is that you didn't 25 see the bus -- sorry, you did not see the car exit.


1 You've -- you've talked about the bus in 2 your notes, but there's no mention of the car. 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: So I just want to be clear that you 5 did not see the car exit the Park. 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And you didn't see the car, and that 8 was off in -- off to your right, I guess it would be, in 9 terms of the melee, you didn't see any attractions with 10 the car in the melee? 11 A: No. I'd seen the car manoeuvring 12 behind the bus and then basically I lost track of it 13 altogether. Q: And that -- but that was only in the 14 Park? 15 A: I didn't see the car outside the 16 Park, either. 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now the other question is -- I just 22 want to ask a couple of follow up questions to Ms. 23 Esmonde. Ms. Esmonde asked you questions about -- about 24 an, 'I support Ken Deane' T-shirt. 25 But I might have missed this when she


1 asked: Did you ever have that T-shirt? 2 A: I can't remember, I may have done. I 3 just don't remember. 4 Q: So you don't know if you still have 5 it, or not? 6 A: I went through all of my T-shirts 7 just last week looking for the -- the one that was up on 8 the screen earlier, so I went through it and I didn't see 9 it in that search. 10 I went through my T-shirt drawer, I went 11 through my rags draw; I didn't see it. 12 Q: So you may have had it, but you don't 13 have it now? 14 A: I may have -- not that I'm aware. 15 It's -- unfortunately I have rags for, you know, 16 polishing cars, that sort of stuff. But I went through 17 most of the obvious areas and didn't see it. 18 Q: You also said that you saw a lot of 19 people with such T-shirts. I'm trying to get an idea of 20 when you saw such people. I -- I wouldn't expect you to 21 be able to give us specifics, but I'm trying to get an 22 idea. 23 Would it have been in 1996, 1997 during 24 the time of the original trial? Would it have been 25 around 2000/2001 around the Appeal? Would it have been


1 post-Appeal? 2 That's what -- I'm trying to get a general 3 idea of when you would have seen these T-shirts. 4 A: I'm thinking around the time of the 5 Appeal but I really can't say it was definitely that 6 time. I -- 7 Q: I'm just trying to get -- 8 A: -- just don't know. 9 Q: -- your best recollection, that's all 10 I'm -- 11 A: Sorry -- 12 Q: -- trying to do. 13 A: I'm sorry, I'm not a lot of help 14 there. 15 Q: Thank you, Sergeant Irvine. Those 16 are my questions. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 18 Mr. Alexander. 19 Do you have any re-examination, Ms. Jones? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: And Mr. Commissioner I 21 think I'd likely be about ten (10) minutes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I called it 23 re-examination, I shouldn't; it's your examination. This 24 is your examination. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you.


1 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 3 Q: Sergeant, I had a few questions to 4 ask you, and they really function on your role as sniper, 5 just so it's clear for the Commission about what you do 6 and how you do it. 7 Starting out, when you were assigned to 8 the Sierra 1 team on the night of September the 6th, can 9 we take it that, because of your expertise as a sniper 10 observer, you were gen -- you would generally be part of 11 the Sierra group, as it went out? 12 A: Generally. I was one of the senior 13 snipers at that stage. 14 Q: Right. 15 A: So it was not a given, but generally 16 I would have -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- been assigned Sierra. 19 Q: And you talked a little bit about 20 when you were in Pinery Park, that you would have packed 21 your rucksacks. And you talked a little bit about some 22 of the gear that you would have brought. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Can you help us understand, when you 25 left Pinery Park, did you know how long you were going


1 out for? What -- would you have packed supplies for an 2 hour, for a day, for days? 3 How -- how would that work? 4 A: Food's important to me, so -- 5 Q: Sure. 6 A: And generally I carry enough food for 7 twenty-four (24) hours in a position, radio batteries to 8 facilitate that, that sort of stuff. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: That's what I put in my ruck as a -- 11 a matter of course. 12 Q: And that would have been the same in 13 this case? You would have been prepared to have been 14 there for some significant period of time? 15 A: Yes, because if I hadn't thought I 16 was going to be there that long, I wouldn't have brought 17 my rucksack; it's just an extra piece of equipment to 18 carry. 19 Q: Right. Now, in terms of the job as a 20 sniper/observer, we've heard that it works in pairs; 21 one's a sniper, one's the observer or the cover for the 22 sniper? 23 Can you -- can you help us understand a 24 little bit about how -- what the role of the 25 sniper/observer is? For example, if you're given an


1 assignment to cover an area, how do you do it? Are there 2 specific techniques that you use? How do you -- how does 3 that role work? 4 A: Generally, the senior person, the one 5 with the sniper rifle -- 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: -- now that doesn't apply to this 8 particular incident, but generally that person is the eye 9 on the -- the threat, the suspect -- 10 Q: Right. 11 A: -- if in a containment position. And 12 the observer then will probably have binoculars or 13 something so they can, not just watch that but watch all 14 around, and we have to have 360 degree cover from each 15 position. 16 And if I can take you back to the incident 17 we had on Kettle Point earlier, where we actually had 18 people coming in from behind us; that's a very 19 uncomfortable position when we're facing somebody with a 20 gun. 21 So in -- in a case like that the observer 22 would be dealing more with the other issues while the 23 sniper stays focussed, I guess is the word, on the major 24 part of the event. 25 Sometimes we divided up that I'll take


1 12:00 to 6:00 and you take -- well, 12:00 to 6:00 2 counter-clockwise, so basically -- 3 Q: Right. 4 A: -- looking at dividing things up 180 5 degrees. But generally, as I say, the sniper covers 6 straight ahead whatever the major thing is; the observer 7 will pick up the slack, what's -- what's behind. 8 Q: Now at Ipperwash on the evening of 9 September the 6th, I take it that would be a little bit 10 of an unusual circumstance because as between Sierra 1 11 and Sierra 2 there was a fairly significant amount of 12 area that you had to keep an eye on; it wasn't like, for 13 example, looking at a house or looking at someone in a 14 house? 15 A: It's so completely different from 16 containing or watching a house. 17 Q: Right. And so in terms of splitting 18 it up, in terms of ensuring that as between Sierra 1 and 19 Sierra 2 were covering the area, did you -- did you have 20 an agreement or -- or an understanding between the two 21 (2) teams about how it would be split up, or do you have 22 enough experience working together you could sort of say 23 I'm taking this and I'm confident the rest will be 24 covered? Do you recall? 25 A: That's what we normally do but I -- I


1 don't remember -- 2 Q: Okay. Okay. 3 A: -- what we decided. 4 Q: And you've talked about when you're 5 in position at -- at the -- by the cottage and you -- you 6 talked about the area you were -- that you were looking 7 at, as being sort of your twelve o'clock position 8 straight ahead, and you could see to your left and to 9 your right into the Park. 10 Do you know where other people were 11 covering? 12 A: Well, I know that the -- the team 13 members that were with the Crowd Management Unit would 14 have been covering those areas affecting the Crowd 15 Management Unit. 16 Q: Okay. And Sierra 2, if they got into 17 position, would be covering from twelve o'clock again -- 18 sorry, in front of the Crowd Management Unit, off to 19 their right. 20 Q: Right. Now in terms of you, when you 21 are covering an area, when you were looking into the 22 Park, how would you do it? 23 What's -- is there a process or a -- that 24 you use or a technique that you use to scan? First of 25 all, are you using your -- the -- your rifle to get an


1 eye or do you look at it with your naked eye, or a 2 combination? 3 A: The mark 1 eyeball is generally the 4 best way to get to see things. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And obviously because you can see in 7 stereo or -- or two (2) eyes for -- 8 Q: Right. 9 A: -- depth of field and all the rest of 10 it. General procedure to look at things is to look at 11 things from the right to the left. We all -- I think we 12 all read left to right in English speaking society 13 anyway, so because your eye can be tricked, I think, into 14 seeing things that aren't there, based on reading right 15 to left, we teach and are taught to try and look at the 16 scene scanning from right to left. 17 Q: And so in terms of your role on the 18 evening of September the 6th, that would have been once 19 you were in position by the cottage, to look to the left, 20 look to the right, look to the left, look to the right, 21 and scan that area back and forth; is that right? 22 A: Depending what's going on. Back and 23 forth -- 24 Q: Sure. 25 A: -- almost makes it seem like you're


1 going left to right and then left to right -- 2 Q: Right. 3 A: -- and opposite. Generally, I try 4 and start at the right and work my way left -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- and then flip back to the right. 7 But if something major happens, like people getting on a 8 bus, I'm going to concentrate on that and then try and go 9 back -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- if that explains the technique. 12 Q: No, it does explain the technique. 13 And can I take it that because you are having to cover a 14 fairly wide area of land, in terms of your observations 15 on the evening of September the 6th, that while you're 16 attention would be focussed on one area, there would be 17 other things going on in other areas that you wouldn't be 18 able to look at? 19 A: A lot of stuff to the bus and the CMU 20 area, I knew roughly where they were but I -- I couldn't 21 see that. 22 Q: But even in terms of your twelve 23 o'clock and the area to the left and right of it, that 24 was your area that you were keeping an eye on? What you 25 would be able to do is to make observations, from time to


1 time, of different areas and different things in that 2 area? 3 A: Oh, yes, I could not concentrate on 4 any one thing for -- for a long period of time in case 5 something happened -- 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: -- outside my field of view and I -- 8 I think I would have been responsible then. So I -- I 9 had to watch a large area. 10 Q: Sure. And so you had to keep moving 11 in terms of watching? 12 A: I had to keep scanning. I stayed in 13 the same position. 14 Q: Right. Which would be why -- why, as 15 you told Mr. Scullion, you -- you had a picture of two 16 (2) people getting on the bus, but then you couldn't say 17 what happened after that because that wasn't something 18 that you were looking at; you would have been looking 19 somewhere else. 20 A: If they had had weapons, I would have 21 spent more time on that. 22 Q: Sure. 23 A: When I say weapons, had firearms, but 24 because I didn't see anything, I just moved on to keep 25 checking.


1 Q: Right. Sure. You were asked a 2 couple of questions about the information that you had 3 about guns. If you recall, you had spoke about earlier 4 in the evening that originally you got some information 5 from Officer Zupancic, and later on perhaps from Kent 6 Skinner, about AK-47's and other weapons. 7 And did you have any knowledge about where 8 the information about those weapons came from? 9 A: No, I -- I don't remember that. 10 Q: Did you have information about the 11 source of the information? Did you have any knowledge or 12 information about whether that particular information 13 about guns had ever been investigated or had ever been 14 looked into? 15 A: I -- I don't remember. Generally, 16 we -- we plan for the worst and hope for the best, I 17 think is a good way to put it. 18 Q: Sure. 19 A: And if somebody said there's a 20 potential that this person is armed with a handgun, you 21 got to just be really careful in a situation like that. 22 And I'm not referring to -- to Ipperwash here. 23 But if somebody says they might have a 24 handgun, that heightens your awareness as opposed to, we 25 know he's not armed. So where the information come, I --


1 I can't comment to that. But is -- 2 Q: Sure. 3 A: -- it a potential, is it a 4 possibility? Yes. Okay, so I'll file it away and -- and 5 look to see if I can see any of those things, and if I 6 don't, then so be it. 7 Q: Okay. And those are my questions. 8 Thank you very much. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much, Ms. Jones. 11 Mr. Millar, do you have any re- 12 examination? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I don't. 14 I wish to thank Sergeant Irvine for attending and giving 15 his evidence yesterday and today. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much, Sergeant Irvine, for giving us your evidence. 19 You're finished now and I think we'll break now. 20 21 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 22 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I suggest we break and 24 have lunch now and start again at -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One o'clock.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- two minutes to 2 1:00. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 4 can start at one o'clock with our next witness. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 6 adjourned until 1:00 p.m. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 11:58 a.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 1:03 p.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 12 resumed, please be seated. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good afternoon. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 afternoon. I see Mr. Rosenthal at the podium. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good afternoon, Mr. 19 Commissioner. I asked your Counsel's indulgence to make 20 a very brief statement related to the memorabilia, as one 21 might call it. 22 As -- as you know, Mr. Commissioner, we 23 found out about a second T-shirt a couple of weeks ago, 24 and then this morning we found about a pin and a third T- 25 shirt. One is reminded of when it rains it pours, it


1 seems. 2 Now, we argued a motion about producing 3 memorabilia at the beginning of this week, and Mr. 4 Roland, on the record, said: 5 "There's no evidence of any other 6 memorabilia." 7 And you asked him about T-shirts and he 8 said: 9 "Or other T-shirts." 10 And he was satisfied that and he said he 11 wasn't prepared to go and canvass his clients, but he did 12 say the following: 13 "From the witnesses that have been 14 prepared and that have come before you, 15 I think there's some twenty (20) OPPA 16 witnesses and the witnesses yet to 17 come, we have no indication of any 18 other memorabilia." 19 Nonetheless, today we have a witness who 20 had in his possession both the pin and the third T-shirt, 21 and we only found about both of those by fortuitous 22 circumstance; someone informed Mr. Falconer's office 23 about the pin and Ms. Esmonde was aware of a rumour about 24 the third T-shirt. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.


1 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And Mr. Roland gave 2 us those assurances on the record and you must consider 3 that in considering that motion, Mr. Commissioner. Thank 4 you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Mr. Rosenthal. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, when 11 Mr. Roland is here and when there are issues dealing with 12 the motion, he can certainly direct any comments he has 13 to that. 14 I did want to make one (1) comment though. 15 In terms of memorabilia related to Ipperwash, which so 16 far as I understand, has been the subject of a number of 17 issues at this Inquiry, I -- you know, my understanding 18 is that there were two (2) T-shirts, the mugs, and 19 whatever else was in there. 20 In terms of characterizing something that 21 was created some five (5) or six (6) years later, or even 22 later, potentially, as being Ipperwash memorabilia, I 23 think that is an unfair -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: -- characterisation.


1 And I think to come at it with the implication that there 2 is something, some wrongdoing or that there has been some 3 dishonesty is really -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 5 MS. KAREN JONES: -- unfair. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- well, I 7 don't think that's the suggestion and I'm not going to 8 take it that way. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I should just point 10 out, Mr. Commissioner, I would request that one who is 11 considering what Ms. Jones just said, read the motion, 12 which says: 13 "Or any other material produced in 14 relation to Ipperwash." 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: This material is 17 certainly produced in relation to Ipperwash. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 19 don't care to get into the argument now. You've asked me 20 to take into account what I've heard about these matters 21 and that's sufficient. It's on the record now and we'll 22 move on. I'm not going to go into it in any more detail 23 now. 24 Yes...? 25 We have another witness on the stand and


1 let's move forward. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 4 afternoon. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good afternoon. 6 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The next witness for 8 the Commission is John Edward Slomer. 9 10 JOHN EDWARD SLOMER, Sworn 11 12 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: Good afternoon. 14 A: Good afternoon. 15 Q: I understand that you are currently a 16 registered nurse in the emergency department of the 17 Alexandra Hospital in Ingersoll? 18 A: That's correct. A registered nurse 19 and a clinical leader, which is a part-time supervisor 20 resource nurse. 21 Q: Resources for...? 22 A: The entire hospital, other staff. 23 Q: All right. I wonder if you would go 24 to Tab 1, please, of your witness brief in front of you, 25 it's Inquiry Document Number 2005564. This appears to be


1 your resume. And could you advise as to whether or not 2 it is accurate and up-to-date? 3 A: Yes, it's -- well, it's up-to-date as 4 to when I submitted it. There is additional training 5 that I've done since this period, which isn't listed 6 here. 7 Q: All right. Do you recall when this 8 is current to? 9 A: I believe November or December of 10 last year. 11 Q: Thank you. I'd like to make this the 12 -- the next exhibit, please 13 THE REGISTRAR: P1610, Your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I am sorry, 15 16...? 16 THE REGISTRAR: 10. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 10. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1610: Document Number 2005564. 20 Resume of J. Edward (Ted) 21 Slomer. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: Now from 1971 to '72, and again 1977 25 to 1980, I understand that you served in the Canadian


1 Armed Forces Reserve as an infantry soldier and platoon 2 leader? 3 A: That's correct. And during the 4 second period I was attached to the Service Battalion as 5 a medical associate officer. 6 Q: And what is the general role of the 7 associate medical officer? 8 A: In the Canadian Armed Forces, that 9 position for the rank that I held is actually a field 10 position. You run, organize a, what we call an 11 evacuation platoon, which is a sub element of the field 12 ambulance, the field medical facilities. 13 In that capacity I was responsible for 14 training, the administration and the field deployment of 15 that unit, which was responsible for triage and immediate 16 life support, and the arrangement of evacuation of 17 casualties from the battlefield. 18 Q: All right. So this is in the field? 19 A: Yes, it's a field position. 20 Q: Yes. Okay. And in 1972, I 21 understand you started working as ambulance attendant and 22 worked for four years as an ambulance attendant for the 23 Holtel Dieu, in Kingston? 24 A: Actually it would be 1976, I believe, 25 that's a...


1 Q: That you were, sorry, was it '75 to 2 '79 that you were -- 3 A: '75 to '79, yes, sorry. 4 Q: All right. But you did start working 5 in 1972 as an ambulance attendant? 6 A: '75, I believe. 7 Q: All right. Thank you. In 1980 you 8 became a registered nurse? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And worked for 14 years at the 11 Victoria Hospital in London, Ontario, in a number of 12 postings including eight years in the Critical Care 13 Trauma Unit? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And from 1980 to '85, you were a 16 medical associate officer for the 22nd Service Battalion 17 based in London? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: As of 1995, had you any experience 20 treating gunshot wounds? 21 A: Yes, I had. 22 Q: Can you briefly describe or outline 23 that experience, please? 24 A: When I worked as an ambulance officer 25 in Kingston, I attended to the scene and cared for a


1 number of patients with gunshot injuries from both 2 revolvers, rifles and shotgun, as well as some stabbings. 3 I was -- because of the nature of the how 4 that ambulance service worked, we were a hospital-based 5 service, so I was able to subsequently follow those 6 patients through the emergency department, and several of 7 them into the operating room and recovery room. 8 Q: All right. In other words, you 9 continued to provide treatment or assistance in their 10 care? 11 A: Well most of my treatment was in the 12 pre-hospital phase and in the emergency room, but I was 13 able to observe and assist, as required, in the other 14 levels of their care. 15 Q: And I also understand that in 1993 16 you became a medic for the Ontario Provincial Police's 17 London TRU or Tactical Response Unit? 18 A: Yes. That's correct. 19 Q: Would you tell us how that came 20 about? 21 A: I knew members of the team. 22 Actually, at that point I had -- I actually went to High 23 School with Wade Lacroix and -- who was on the team at 24 that time as a -- as a constable. 25 And we ran into each other one day in


1 London, and he suggested that I should come out and sort 2 of see what was going on and maybe some -- offer them 3 some advice as to what they were carrying in their -- 4 their first aid kit, and things of that nature. 5 And that relationship sort of -- we 6 renewed our relationship and that association with the 7 team began there. 8 Q: And were you the first medic 9 associated with any OPP TRU? 10 A: As far as I understand, I was the 11 first in Canada. We had actually -- we began to look at 12 this. At that point, there were no -- no programs that 13 we could find a reference to, through the Police Agencies 14 or through the EMS side, that anyone was thinking of 15 associating EMS skills with tactical teams. 16 Q: And just for the record, "EMS" refers 17 to Emergency -- 18 A: Emergency Medical Services. 19 Q: -- Medical Services. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Fine, thank you. And what was the 22 nature of your affiliation with TRU? 23 A: Early on, it was just this advisory 24 role and I would go out once in a while and -- when they 25 were having training, help them with their scenarios that


1 they were running. 2 I was asked to be a lecturer, to offer 3 medical expertise on some of their selection courses and 4 early Level I, Level II training courses. 5 Q: And if we go to Tab 2 of your brief, 6 Inquiry Document 3000737. This is an excerpt from the 7 Provincial Park Academy TRU training course. 8 And in particular, if you look at page 64, 9 and I should indicate that there's a date of April -- it 10 looks like April 1988 on page 2. 11 And if you go to page 3 or page 64 of the 12 actual document, at the bottom it indicates that you are 13 a resource with respect to an expert in gunshot wounds; 14 is that right? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: I'd like to make that the next 17 exhibit, please. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1611, Your Honour. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1611: Document Number 3000737. OPP 22 Academy, TRU Training Course, 23 Course Training Standard, 24 April 11, 1988. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: And when -- as of September 1995, had 3 you been deployed as a member of TRU in your capacity as 4 a -- as a medic? 5 A: I'd been deployed with TRU but not as 6 a -- a member at that point. 7 I had been out on several calls, I believe 8 beginning in 1993, usually in the local area, subject to 9 my availability and to the risk that was determined on 10 the call. 11 Q: And what type of calls would you 12 typically accompany the London TRU on in that '93 to 13 early '95 timeframe? 14 A: The ones that I remember at that time 15 were mostly that involved barricaded suspects with 16 hostages. 17 Q: Now, were you a -- an auxiliary 18 officer with the OPP as of September -- September 6th, 19 1995? 20 A: Well, as -- as I began to become more 21 active, as they realized that I provided a resource which 22 was of some benefit to their operations, the issue came 23 up as to what would happen if I was injured on such an 24 operation or injured in training, because I was doing 25 more and more training time with them.


1 And the easiest way to work through that 2 problem was to be bring me on through the auxiliary 3 program. I had completed the -- the auxiliary course and 4 there was an available position for me as of, I believe, 5 the Spring of 1995 is when I did the course in Brampton. 6 But I wasn't actually sworn in yet. 7 Q: And did you become a sworn auxiliary 8 member? 9 A: I did. I was actually sworn in at 10 Ipperwash. 11 Q: Do you recall, was it before or after 12 September 6th? 13 A: It was after September 6th. I 14 believe --I don't believe it was the next day. My 15 recollection is -- timeline is kind of foggy. But I 16 believe it was sort of 48 hours afterwards. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: It might have been even 72 hours 19 afterwards. 20 Q: All right. Prior to that then, were 21 you effectively on contract with the OPP? 22 A: No. There was no formal agreement. 23 It was just -- they would call me when they thought they 24 could use my expertise. 25 Q: So were you --


1 A: And I offered it freely. 2 Q: I'm sorry? 3 A: I offered it up freely. I was not -- 4 I wasn't compensated or -- 5 Q: All right. So you were -- 6 A: -- it wasn't a contract, no. 7 Q: You were a volunteer? 8 A: I was a volunteer, yes. 9 Q: Now as a volunteer medic then, with 10 the TRU, who did you take orders from when there was a 11 call out as a TRU medic -- or as a medic with TRU? 12 A: As a tactical medic you take your 13 orders from the police -- senior police officer on the 14 scene, ultimately which would be the Incident Commander. 15 But I don't usually have direct interaction with that so 16 it would be through the team leader. 17 Or if I'm working with a sub-element 18 through the sub-element leader that I'm with. 19 Q: What training did you receive 20 specifically in relation to your position as a medic with 21 TRU? 22 A: The -- as a tactical medic, I 23 attended the Uniform Services University in Washington, 24 D.C. for a course, and that's actually where the concept 25 of the tactical medic on the civilian side was developed.


1 Uniform Services University is a -- the 2 American military university for their Health Sciences. 3 They train physicians, nurses, other health care 4 professionals for employment both in the US Military and 5 the Public Health Service. 6 They developed this course in conjunction 7 with the United States Park Police. It's a -- now a 8 world recognized standard in tactical emergency care. 9 And at the time which I attended, I was actually the 10 first international student that was accepted for that 11 course. 12 It has only been for the last 4 or 5 years 13 that they've accepted international students. 14 Q: When did you take that course? 15 A: I took that course, I believe, in 16 1993. 17 Q: And you've -- you've indicated that 18 essentially you were a tactical medic. Can you tell us 19 what that means, how that would distinguish you from a 20 civilian medic? 21 A: Tactical medic is a -- a medic at 22 whatever level, either basic or advanced level that they 23 function at, that has specific training in the tactical 24 environment, to -- so to work in that environment to 25 support police operations.


1 It's a -- now recognized as a sub- 2 speciality of emergency medicine. 3 Q: Can you then describe your primary 4 role and duties as they existed in early September '95 as 5 a medic with TRU? 6 A: Well my primary duty would be to -- 7 because I was trained and familiar with TRU operations, 8 that would allow me to work within the -- the danger area 9 of the perimeter which regular EMS would not be able to 10 work in because they didn't have the training or the 11 equipment. 12 The primary concern is that you might have 13 a patient, not necessarily a police officer but a -- as 14 well a bystander or someone identified as a perpetrator, 15 that might go down in that environment as a casualty or 16 an injured person. 17 Since regular EMS couldn't -- or can't 18 work in there, there would be a delay in accessing EMS 19 because of the safety concerns. 20 So that's how a -- or where a tactical 21 medic works. The other difference is -- between tactical 22 EMS and civilian EMS is the -- basically, I'm working 23 with the police to support their operation, and that's 24 the overriding concern, is the operation of the police 25 operation.


1 That's unlike regular civilian EMS where 2 the overriding concern is care of the patient. So if 3 there was a bit of a conflict, it would be -- the police 4 concern would override. 5 Q: All right. And when you say the -- 6 you would provide service within the perimeter, can you 7 just define what you mean by the perimeter? 8 A: Most people think of the perimeter as 9 sort of a self-contained area that -- where you can sort 10 of draw a line on a map or a diagram, but, in fact, the 11 perimeter has to be considered; if you have a -- a 12 shooter, basically the perimeter would be anywhere that 13 that shooter could potentially reach with that weapon. 14 Q: All right. So it's the danger zone. 15 A: The danger zone, the immediate danger 16 zone that's posed by the -- by the weapon. 17 Q: Can you -- did you learn in the 18 course of your training as a tactical medic, then, with 19 the additional or the different responsibilities that 20 tactical medic has from a civilian EMS medic, how would 21 you approach a situation in which there might be an 22 injured person within the perimeter? 23 A: Well the -- the main difference would 24 -- the basic approach is actually the same, it's -- it's 25 so that safety becomes the overwhelming concern.


1 Say is it the same as it would be if you 2 approached a motor vehicle accident where there may be 3 hazards as far as spilled gasolene or passing traffic on 4 the road; those types of things. 5 What's different in the tactical 6 environment is you may actually have someone that's 7 hunting you. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: That becomes a concern. And the 10 patients in that kind of environment very often go down 11 in an area and they become patients or casualties because 12 they're in an area which can be observed by the shooter. 13 Q: And how does that impact on your 14 ability to provide treatment to that injured party? 15 A: Well it impacts it in mainly in two 16 (2) ways: One is that because of the imminent danger of 17 -- of -- it's always present, of the firearm, your 18 methods of extracting patients, of assessing patients is 19 -- you can't just walk up to the patient and assess them, 20 because of the next round that comes from that weapon may 21 be directed at you. 22 So everything that you do has to be within 23 that context. So the -- you -- you try to do the same 24 assessment, sometimes you have to change the order, 25 sometimes you have to do the immediate things and put


1 some things off, because it's not practical, because of 2 the danger, to do it at that instant. 3 The other major impact is that, for 4 example, a -- a skill such as -- well even the basic 5 assessment skill, normally EMS at the side of a road 6 motor vehicle accident, for whatever -- there's no rest - 7 - you can use white light, it's not a problem, you can 8 light the area up to see what you're going to see. 9 In a tactical environment, a white light 10 may actually draw fire and be of danger. So that you 11 have to tailor your immediate assessment without the use 12 of white light. 13 It'll be affected by the noise of the 14 environment, what else is going on around you and may, in 15 fact, be impeded by the equipment that you wear or that 16 the patient is wearing. 17 If your helmet doesn't fit properly, you 18 can't use your stethoscope. If -- it's harder to assess 19 a patient that's in full body armour, than, as say, in 20 gym shorts and a T-shirt. 21 Q: All right. So then the security 22 concerns then are of paramount concern to you as the 23 tactical medic -- 24 A: Absolutely. 25 Q: -- and will inform the type or the


1 methodology of the -- the assessment that you then 2 perform? 3 A: Eventually you will get to perform 4 the same assessment, but it may be broken up into stages 5 depending on what you can -- can do. 6 So for example if you go to the side of a 7 patient -- if you determine that it's safe for you to go 8 to the side of the patient you may decided that yes, the 9 patient is breathing and there is -- there is no gross 10 haemorrhage, they're not immediately bleeding out on the 11 ground, you may elect at that point to basically drag the 12 person to cover before proceeding on with any other 13 interventions. 14 Q: All right. Now, once you have the 15 injured party in a secured environment -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- is there a standard protocol or 18 methodology that -- that you are to follow with respect 19 to an assessment procedure? 20 A: Well there are several sort of 21 schools of -- of protocol for a standardized assessment 22 of a trauma patient by EMS. One is -- methodology that's 23 put forth by what we call a basic life support, or Basic 24 Trauma Life support, BTLS, which is a -- a spinoff of the 25 physician's version of that course which is Advanced


1 Trauma Life Support. 2 The second is pre-hospital trauma life 3 support whose methodology differs a little bit but 4 basically achieves the same goal and it's again a spinoff 5 out of the same program that was developed originally for 6 physicians. 7 Q: And as of early or -- early September 8 1995 which of the standard size -- standardized 9 assessment procedures did you follow as a tactical medic? 10 A: I was using the assessment 11 methodology I learned in Basic Trauma Life Support. 12 Q: And can you just very briefly tell us 13 the components of that assessment? 14 A: Well, it's actually a fairly 15 comprehensive assessment. It's divided into three (3) 16 phases. There's a, what we call a primary survey, 17 there's a decision making process, and then there's what 18 we call a secondary survey. 19 And the primary survey's purpose is to 20 systematically identify immediate life threats to the 21 patient and to perform interventions to sustain that 22 patient for the next five (5) minutes, ten (10) minutes; 23 certainly until you can finish your assessment. 24 On the basis of that you make a decision 25 about whether you will perform further assessment on


1 scene or actually perform that assessment en route. And 2 that's driven by what you determine to be the severity of 3 life threat to the patient. 4 So the primary assessment starts with 5 basic airway assessment. So you approach the patient, 6 introduce yourself, can -- and you start to get 7 information immediately; do they respond to you; are they 8 able to respond to you verbally? 9 If they're able to respond to you verbally 10 and it sounded like normal conversation, that gives you 11 information as to the status of their airway which is 12 important as to whether they're able to breathe properly; 13 to move the good air in and the bad air out basically. 14 Or do they not make any sound? Are they 15 snoring; which would indicate that they have a partially 16 obstructed airway, possibly from their tongue or 17 something else. And we can do a manual intervention. 18 Sometimes it's just a question of moving 19 the jaw, straightening the -- the airway slightly to 20 remove that or it may go as far as placing a device which 21 helps to keep the tongue or that airway moving so they 22 have clear movement. 23 We look at the, and assess, the rate and 24 the quality of their respirations. Are they too fast or 25 too slow?


1 If they're too fast they will need -- may 2 need assistance. They'll certainly need supplementary 3 oxygen. If they're too slow they'll definitely need both 4 of those. And that's to improve their oxygenation status 5 because that's what supports life. 6 From there, we move onto circulatory 7 status and we look at their pulses; is it easy to get 8 pulses, where do we get the pulses. If we can get the 9 pulses in their wrist, that indicates they usually have a 10 sustainable blood pressure that's compatible with life. 11 If we can only get pulses radially in the neck, that 12 indicates that they probably have a comprised 13 circulation. So that would be -- or they're in shock. 14 So that's identified as a life threat. 15 Between, as we're doing those -- because a 16 lot of this happens simultaneously; I'm sort of laying it 17 out sequentially. So we've done the airway breathing -- 18 or breathing or sort of into the circulation. While 19 we're at the neck and we're looking all the time 20 depending on how much we can see, we're looking for gross 21 bleeding; like obvious injuries we're looking for. 22 In the case of the neck, is it swollen, 23 can we get the pulses, is there -- on the back of neck is 24 there what we call a -- you can feel down the spine, is 25 there what we call a deformity that would indicate


1 possible fracture or an injury there. Is there lots of 2 muscle spasm, which would indicate there's probably an 3 underlying injury. 4 We come to the front of the neck and 5 evaluate the position of the trachea. Is it midline like 6 it's suppose to be or is it shifted to one side or the 7 other. And a shift in the trachea would be indicative of 8 a -- a problem in the chest which is very serious and 9 comprises not only the breathing of the patient but also 10 the circulation. And it can be fatal within several 11 minutes. 12 We look at the chest does it -- does it 13 expand equally the way it's suppose to. We palpate, feel 14 the chest, compress it; do we feel fractures, can we hear 15 crepitus from bone ends that are fractured that are 16 moving. 17 Does the patient wince if we touch one 18 side which may indicate a bruise or a contusion that may 19 further -- if it's associated with a fracture, indicate 20 there's damage to underlying tissues such as lungs, the 21 great vessels, or the heart. 22 We go down to the abdomen to see whether 23 it's nice and soft which would be what we would hope for 24 or whether it's hard or tender which would indicate some 25 kind of abdominal pathology either from a ruptured blood


1 vessel or a ruptured organ such as the bowel which is now 2 spilling bacteria into the gut and can produce a life 3 threatening infection of sepsis. 4 Then we in turn -- and that's basically 5 the primary survey and some of the interventions that we 6 would perform. If we decide now at this point and this 7 is a trauma patient we're talking about and probably the 8 best example if it was a motor vehicle collision, we 9 would in a -- using several people, we would properly log 10 roll this patient onto their side and check their back, 11 looking to see if there's pathology or injuries in the 12 back which should be addressed. 13 If they've fallen out of a tree and fallen 14 on the stump, the front may look perfectly normal but 15 there may be a large hole in their back or their abdomen. 16 And then we would put them on a -- on a 17 backboard. And if they were deemed to be -- have serious 18 life threats, we would initiate transport at that point. 19 Q: All right. So if there's any life 20 threatening injuries, would you initiate transport? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: After you have presumably -- 23 A: Yeah serious -- serious. Well, by 24 serious I mean, yes, life threatening injuries. 25 Q: And is it to fair to say --


1 A: But potentially life threatening 2 injuries, may not be picked up in the primary survey so. 3 Q: All right. And is it fair to say 4 that the -- your assessment is informed to a degree by 5 what you are presented with -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- in terms of the scenario? 8 A: Yes. That's only half of the 9 assessment though. 10 Q: No, I appreciate that. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: All right. So carry on with the 13 secondary assessment then. 14 A: The secondary assessment is a -- what 15 we're looking for with it is to look a little further, 16 hopefully that -- and determine that the patient now is 17 either stable enough for us to do this, which means they 18 have vital signs within normal limits, and we haven't 19 identified the life threats. 20 Either way we would continue on at some 21 point in the call with the secondary survey, which means 22 we go back to the head and we start a more detailed 23 survey, basically running through, in medical terms, what 24 we refer to as the ABC's. 25 So we -- again we look at the airway


1 looking for the same types of things, and this is the 2 point at which if we have performed an intervention, for 3 example, placing an airway or sectioning the patient in 4 the -- to do the primary survey, that we get to evaluate 5 whether that has been effective or whether we need 6 further intervention. 7 So, it's a little -- so look at those 8 first, or we look at those at the same time, that we are 9 conducting a more detailed survey. 10 So the secondary survey starts with -- in 11 a conscious patient, it would start with listening: a 12 little bit of history, medical history; do they have 13 allergies; do they have some other medical condition that 14 may impact their clinical course, such as diabetes, 15 seizure history, those -- those types of things; drug 16 allergies; their understanding of events leading up to 17 where they are. And now we're starting to get into 18 evaluating their neurological status. 19 Initially in the primary we were only 20 worried about whether they would respond to us and how 21 they would do that; whether they did that spontaneously; 22 whether they appeared to be alert and comprehend; whether 23 we had to verbally cue them, speak to them to get them to 24 respond; whether we had to actually induce a small pain 25 stimulus to get them to respond to us; or whether they


1 didn't respond at all. 2 And that's -- we call that APU. It stands 3 for alert; whether they respond verbally, whether they 4 respond to pain or U; whether they respond -- or they 5 don't respond at all, they're unconscious. 6 The secondary we do our history, we do a 7 set of vitals, which means we do a -- do a -- in the 8 primary when we looked respirations and pulse, we were 9 interested (a) is it present, and (b) is it too fast or 10 too slow; that's basically what we're looking for. 11 Now we're looking for more detailed 12 information. So we would physically count the 13 respirations; have they changed in quality. If we've -- 14 if we've added, say, oxygen to the patient how has that 15 oxygen affected their patient; is their pulse getting 16 stronger, is the rapidity of their pulse coming down more 17 towards normal limits; is their work of breathing with 18 the oxygen reduced or are they still breathing at thirty- 19 five (35) times a minute, which would be almost three 20 times normal. 21 We -- and we start a detailed neuro 22 assessment, which would start with looking at their 23 reactivity of their pupils. We would be asking them 24 questions with respect to orientation: Do they know 25 where they are; do they have any idea who I am; what were


1 they doing before the accident; those types of things. 2 Q: And is that with respect to the 3 determination of the neurological status? 4 A: That goes towards that, yes. 5 Q: And why is that important? 6 A: The neurol -- well, partly because we 7 can't see inside the head. The neuro status is important 8 because the -- how well the brain is supplied with oxygen 9 and nutrients such as glucose, through the circulation, 10 will have a bearing on the patient's ability to respond. 11 So, for example, if there's a -- an 12 aberration in how they -- their glucose status, for 13 example, is in a diabetic, very often they will appear 14 confused. There's a nutrient problem there which needs 15 to be corrected. 16 So that how well the brain functions if 17 they're alert and functioning with what appears to be 18 normal responses, we can be reasonably assured that their 19 respiratory status and their circulatory status is 20 adequate enough for the time being. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: If there's a -- a diminishment in 23 their ability to maintain their mental status that can 24 indicate there's a problem in one (1) of those two (2) 25 areas or that there's been a direct injury to the brain--


1 Q: All right. 2 A: -- would be the other possibility. 3 Q: Thank you. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: And is there any other essential 6 parts to the secondary assessment? 7 A: Well, the secondary assessment we 8 refer to as the head to toe, and it's much more of a 9 hands on type of assessment. So at this point you're 10 looking at -- you physically basically feel the patient 11 all over from the top of their head to their toes. 12 So you, for example, would run your 13 fingers in an unconscious patient through their hair; 14 you're looking for depressions in the skull which may 15 indicate a fracture which would be associated with a 16 decreased level of consciousness and what could be a 17 life-threatening head injury. 18 You're looking for lacerations; other 19 clues. You look in the ears. You look in the nose for 20 drainage such as blood or cerebral spinal fluid which can 21 indicate fractures or in the case of cerebral spinal 22 fluid appearing a fracture that is now a direct 23 communication between the outside environment and the 24 brain so it now becomes a route for infection. 25 You look in the -- in the mouth,


1 especially if originally there's been trauma around the 2 mouth. You'll look in to see if their teeth are broken 3 or fractured. They -- those objects may have fallen out, 4 the broken tooth, but it also may be a foreign body 5 that's in the airway -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: -- that if it goes down far enough 8 can create a problem for you. You look for bleeding, 9 secretions such as saliva or blood or vomitus in the 10 airway. 11 You repeat your detailed assessment of the 12 neck and you go down to the chest, repeat your hands-on 13 evaluation of the chest. And at this point if you're in 14 an environment where you can listen you'll actually 15 auscultate the chest for breath sounds making sure that 16 they're equal to both -- both sides. 17 Cursory examination of the abdomen again; 18 what we refer to as "springing" the pelvis. So you 19 compress the pelvis in two (2) directions because you 20 want to ensure that that area is intact. Pelvic 21 fractures are associated with large internal haemorrhages 22 and are potentially life-threatening. 23 And then you evaluate each limb 24 independently feeling with both hands, sort of going down 25 limbs in this fashion --


1 Q: With your hands. 2 A: With -- with your hands. 3 Q: That's called palpations, is it? 4 A: Palpation, yes -- 5 Q: Is that the right term? 6 A: -- looking for deformities which may 7 indicate fractures. You may actually flex some of the 8 joints and in each limb you check the -- if the patient 9 is conscious; are there numbness or tingling in your 10 hands which would be associated with possibly a neuro -- 11 neurovascular -- a compromise of either the nerve system 12 of the vascular system in the limb. 13 Check how well each limb is circulating by 14 a test we call capillary refill which involves 15 compressing the nail bed to see how -- as it blanches how 16 quickly the blood returns. And you look at the pulses in 17 all four (4) limbs. 18 And when you've done all that then you've 19 completed a primary and secondary survey. 20 Q: All right. And then dependent on 21 that, the results of course, you then arrange for the 22 transport of the patient for further care if necessary? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Now, prior to being 25 deployed to Ipperwash had you had occasion as a tactical


1 medic to provide treatment to injured persons in the 2 context of a TRU operation? 3 A: Nothing as extensive that I would 4 need a BTLS survey for. So -- 5 Q: A what? 6 A: A -- the Basic -- to do the survey 7 that we've just described. It was more of a -- I've got 8 a scratchy throat, -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: -- I've got a headache, I've got 11 something in my eye. 12 Q: Okay. Scraped knee? 13 A: Yes, those -- 14 Q: Okay. Thank you. 15 A: They happen. 16 Q: Fair enough. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Now, were you in fact called out to 19 Ipperwash? 20 A: Yes, I was. 21 Q: Do you recall when? 22 A: I believe it was the morning of the 23 6th. I'm not sure whether I was paged out; whether I had 24 a -- actually had a pager at that time or whether I was 25 contacted at home by phone.


1 Q: All right. And do you recall who 2 would have issued that request? 3 A: No, I don't recall who did that. 4 Q: All right. Do you recall where you 5 went upon receiving the request? 6 A: I -- my recollection is that I 7 proceeded to our office to meet up with Constable 8 Zupancic. 9 Q: And your office means what? 10 A: Well, we've actually moved in there 11 and I can't remember the exact date that we moved, but it 12 was one (1) of two (2) -- we are currently located with - 13 - I believe at that point we were located at Western 14 Region headquarters, co-located there. 15 Q: And where is that located? 16 A: That's on 6355 Westminster Drive, in 17 Lambeth which is a small community just south of London. 18 Q: Okay, thank you. Now, perhaps you -- 19 you could go to Tab 18 of your brief. It's Inquiry 20 document 2003877. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: It's an interview that was conducted 23 by Mark -- Detective Constable Mark Dew on June 29, 1997. 24 And do you recall being interviewed by Mr. -- Constable 25 Dew?


1 A: Yes, I do. 2 Q: And I understand that there is an 3 error in the first page of the document; is that right? 4 With respect to the date that you were called out or 5 activated with the London team. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: It indicates that you were activated 10 on the Tuesday morning? 11 A: Hmm. 12 Q: And then you proceed to describe the 13 events that we have associated with the evening of 14 September the 6th. 15 A: I'm not exactly sure of the day 16 because once you're on a call it becomes sort of a 17 twenty-four (24) hour clock, so you're out of your 18 regular routine. It might have been the day before. The 19 problem is, I can't remember if -- where I slept in 20 between being called out and being at the incident in 21 Ipperwash. 22 Q: All right. Perhaps you could just -- 23 A: So -- 24 Q: Perhaps we can help refresh your 25 memory.


1 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: "September of 1995, I was activated 3 with the London team on the Tuesday 4 morning after Labour day weekend. I 5 spent most of the day with P/C Rick 6 Zupancic. We met the team for a 7 briefing at the Pinery. We then 8 returned to London. We then went back 9 to the Pinery on Tuesday afternoon. In 10 the evening, we received an alert and 11 we deployed from the Pinery to the 12 staging area where the TOC was." 13 Does that refresh your memory? 14 A: Yes, that's correct. We actually 15 made several -- at least two (2) trips, I believe to the 16 -- we made two (2) trips back to London. 17 Q: All right. Do you recall what you -- 18 you did, specifically, on the first day that you were 19 activated? 20 A: We actually joined the team later 21 because P/C Zupancic had a physician's appointment in the 22 morning. 23 So when I met up with him, we went -- he 24 completed his appointment and then I believe we proceeded 25 up; that's my recollection.


1 Q: All right. Do you recall meeting 2 with the TRU for a briefing at the Pinery? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: And what was -- was your recollection 5 of the substance of that briefing? 6 A: Basically that we were there, we 7 would be staged the area that we were in which was is a - 8 - I believe it was a -- like a maintenance area that had 9 some barracks and kitchen facilities in the middle of the 10 Pinery. 11 And we would be there on alert and be 12 prepared to either act as a -- immediate action team or 13 in the event of officer rescue, because there was a 14 situation going on with the Ipperwash Park. 15 Q: What was your understanding of that 16 situation? 17 A: I'm not exactly... 18 Q: What was your understanding of the -- 19 the nature of the situation that you were being called 20 out to? 21 A: Well, I understand that the -- well, 22 I wasn't aware that the Army Camp had been occupied for, 23 I think at that point, several years. And that at some 24 point, previous to me being called up to the Pinery, 25 Native Canadians had actually occupied the Park area, the


1 Provincial Park area. 2 And I was -- my recollection is that we 3 were not going to be serving a warrant or intervening in 4 the Park itself, that our activities were going to be 5 restricted to being outside the Park and there was some 6 sort of legal process going to happen. 7 So basically it was to sort of separate 8 the public from the -- the Native community at that 9 point, so that there wasn't friction. 10 Q: All right. I'd like to make this 11 document, Inquiry Document Number 2003877 the next 12 exhibit. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1612, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1612: Document Number 2003877. 16 Typed and handwritten OPP 17 Interview of John Edward 18 Slomer by Det. Cst. Mark Dew 19 and typed observations re. 20 Cecil Bernard George's 21 injuries, June 29, 1997. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: Did you play any role in the setting 25 up of the Tactical Operation Centre?


1 A: Yes, I believe I did. 2 Q: And do you recall where that was 3 located? 4 A: Well there's actually two (2). 5 There's a -- there was a Command Post in Mount Forest and 6 then -- 7 Q: Sorry. In Mount Forest? 8 A: Sorry, in Forest. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And then on site there's two (2) 11 TOC's. There's one that the Incident Commander works out 12 of and it was a large trailer that I understand had been 13 borrowed from St. John Ambulance. It was in a -- I 14 believe it was the Ministry -- MNR parking lot. 15 Q: On -- off what road? 16 A: It's the road that I understand now 17 is East Park Drive or -- 18 Q: East Parkway Drive? 19 A: -- it runs parallel to the -- to the 20 water. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: To the south side of the Camp. And 23 then there's our small -- well our van, box truck 24 actually, that we use as a -- as a small Command Post, 25 what we refer to as the TOC, and usually we give the


1 numbers TOC 1, TOC 2. 2 Q: All right. And the -- this latter 3 vehicle, what was the site -- or the unit for -- the base 4 for? 5 A: The -- well usually on incidents that 6 I've been before, we've never had a separate large 7 Command Post like I became aware of that we had in 8 Forest. That's usually combined with the -- with the 9 trailer park, so usually that's not even on site. 10 The -- basically it was to provide some 11 distance between the Incident Commander and their staff 12 and what they have to do, and the immediate operation of 13 the team, which would be run by the -- the 2 I/C, the 14 second in command of the team. 15 Q: All right. And when you're referring 16 to the team, which team are you referring to? 17 A: My team, what's now known as West 18 Region TRU. 19 Q: So a TRU team? 20 A: Yes, my TRU team, yes. 21 Q: All right. And what steps, if any, 22 did you take to satisfy yourself that the TOC was 23 adequately serviced or set up from a medic's perspective? 24 A: Well my function there at that point 25 wasn't medical, it was just to be an extra pair of hands


1 to help set things up. In the initial stages, when we 2 deploy, there's many more tasks to do than there are 3 hands to do them. 4 I had -- in the military, in the last 5 eight (8) years that I was in the military, it was 6 actually in a reconnaissance regiment and for part of 7 that time I actually ran my own Command Post in the 8 field. 9 So I was familiar with how to set up the 10 antenna. We stored extra equipment. It was -- actually 11 the truck that we have has bomb disposal equipment in it. 12 So sometimes we're moving some of that equipment around 13 to make space. 14 So basically I assisted in helping set up 15 the antenna, running extension cords for power so we 16 didn't -- if they were available, those sorts of things, 17 although they weren't available on that site. 18 Q: All right. So essentially, 19 logistical support? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And -- all right. When you arrived 22 at the TOC, were there any emergency medical services 23 personnel? 24 A: I believe St. John Ambulance was on 25 the scene with a vehicle. And at some point there were -


1 - I think there was one (1) -- there may have been -- 2 eventually there were two (2) Ministry of Health 3 ambulances, fairly -- if not -- if they weren't there 4 right away they were fairly close. 5 Q: All right. And is this the day that 6 the -- the CMU and TRU eventually deployed down East 7 Parkway Drive? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Who's -- do you know -- did you play 10 any role in determining what level of civilian emergency 11 medical services support should be available in this 12 police operation? 13 A: No. I had no -- actually I had no 14 knowledge of the plan that night, other than basically 15 what I learned at the briefing at the Pinery and on the 16 fly. 17 Q: All right. And did you have the 18 briefing the same day as the deployment, later on down 19 East Parkway Drive with the CMU and TRU? 20 A: That's my recollection, yes. 21 Q: All right. And for the record, that 22 would be September the 6th, a Wednesday? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you. Now, did you -- do you 25 recall whether or not the TRU team was activated later in


1 the day of September the 6th? 2 A: Yes, we were. 3 Q: All right. And where were you when 4 it was activated? 5 A: We were at the area in the Pinery, 6 and we were activated to proceed down to the area which I 7 -- we've just been sort of talking about where we 8 eventually set up this -- the TOC. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: In the Ministry parking lot. 11 Q: All right. Now, did you take any 12 notes with respect to your activation as a medic with 13 TRU? 14 A: I believe I wrote down some times. I 15 keep -- at that point, I keep -- or kept a small notebook 16 that I'd jot down reminders and -- and sort of some -- 17 like things I wanted to remember. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: It wasn't a formalized notebook in 20 the police sense. It was more of just a reminder type 21 notebook. 22 Q: Were you under any professional 23 obligation to take notes during the course of your 24 activation as a medic with TRU? 25 A: No.


1 Q: All right. Did you -- did you 2 actually take notes on September the 6th? 3 A: In the context of taking notes as -- 4 no. 5 Q: You did not? 6 A: No, I did not take detailed notes. 7 Q: But you did -- 8 A: Like I said, I might jot down the 9 occasional time or I might jot down, We're supposed to go 10 to London to pick up, and I'd write down the items. But 11 I wouldn't keep detailed times of who I went to and from 12 that incident with, or exact timings. 13 Q: Did you keep the notebook into which 14 you would have jotted down the notes reflecting the 15 events of September the 6th? 16 A: No, I did not. 17 Q: Do you know what happened to that 18 notebook? 19 A: Well, because of my -- my background, 20 as far as a medical provider, I'm not used to keeping a 21 regular notebook, other than, as I've mentioned, just 22 wanting to keep track of key information, and because of 23 the confidentiality issues, I tend not to keep patient- 24 type information in that notebook. 25 And as a -- as a nurse, basically


1 everything we need to know gets written on the chart, and 2 we don't keep notes aside from the clinical record. 3 In the military, I -- my last eight (8) 4 years I said -- spent with the reconnaissance unit, 5 which, by its nature, very often works far forward of the 6 main body of the army, in very close to the enemy, 7 sometimes they're cut off behind enemy lines. And our 8 regular procedure would be every day to destroy notes and 9 codes from the previous day. 10 So I was not used to keeping things, and 11 subsequent to copying some -- or making a copy -- a 12 typewritten copy of notes that I provided to Constable 13 Dew -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- I inadvertently destroyed that 16 notebook with a number of others that -- EMS notebooks -- 17 that I had -- had kept just because I didn't -- they got 18 mixed up. I... 19 Q: All right. It wasn't your intention 20 to -- to destroy the book? 21 A: No, it was inadvertent. 22 Q: If you look at Tab 18, this is 23 Exhibit P-1612 and it's the statement given to Mark Dew, 24 or at least an interview, and the very last page of that 25 document appears to be a typed transcription. Can you


1 identify that document? 2 A: Yes. This is the copy of the patient 3 information that I took either from my notebook or piece 4 of paper, because I wasn't used to writing -- as I said I 5 wasn't used to writing patient information in that 6 notebook, but this is the patient information that I took 7 regarding Mr. Cecil Bernard George -- 8 Q: All right. 9 A: -- that night. 10 Q: With respect to your assessment of 11 him later that night? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Thank you. All right. Now you 14 indicated that once TRU was activated from the Pinery 15 Park, you went with them down to the MNR site where the 16 TOC was located? 17 A: Yes, that's my recollection. 18 Q: All right. Did you receive any 19 briefing with respect to TRU's assignment, and your 20 assignment in particular, once you arrived at the TOC? 21 A: I don't remember specifics of a 22 briefing, but there was additional information, because 23 at some point early on, after setting up the TOC, I 24 became aware of a type of inform -- type of support we 25 might be required to deliver.


1 And I remember going to discuss that with 2 EMS personnel that were present. 3 Q: All right. And what was the 4 information that you received which caused you to go 5 speak with the EMS personnel? 6 A: Well, I actually spoke to them at 7 different times. And -- and when I initially got on 8 scene and took care of my duties around the TOC, I spoke 9 to both -- all three (3) ambulance crews with regards to 10 -- that I was on the ground. 11 This was my role; to reassure them that 12 they would not be called forward into a dangerous area; 13 that we'd sort of agreed on the -- a plan that I would -- 14 if it was considered dangerous until -- unless the scene 15 was perfectly secure; that I would go forward and triage 16 patients and funnel patients back to them for further 17 assessment and transport. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. What -- 19 A: Later on, when I became aware of the 20 nature of the CMU operations, we began to discuss some 21 specifics, because there were specifics around that 22 nature of a call -- or nature of an operation that I 23 wanted to be sure that they were aware of and possibly be 24 thinking about caring for certain types of injuries. 25 Q: Well, what was your understanding of


1 the situation as it was developing in or around the Park 2 early that evening? 3 A: My understanding was that there had 4 been some kind of an altercation in the afternoon between 5 Natives in the Park, and civilians in the area of the 6 intersection, and the Crowd Management Unit. Basically 7 there was sort of a crowd there that -- for -- in the 8 interest of public order, this -- we would rather not 9 have in the intersection. 10 It was interfering with the movement of 11 the cottagers to and from their -- their homes. 12 Q: All right. And what type of injuries 13 did you alert the EMS personnel to be prepared for? 14 A: We talked about the call, first in -- 15 in general terms. As far as any time TRU is called out, 16 because of the nature of calls that we're required to 17 deal with, these people are usually armed and considered 18 dangerous, so we talked about gunshot wounds, we talked 19 about burns with relation to crowd management, because 20 people like to throw burning objects at crowd management. 21 We talked about the closest hospital, what 22 facilities were available in that hospital, which in this 23 case was Strathroy. We talked about Sarnia Hospital, 24 although slightly farther away, had more facilities as 25 far as surgeons and operating rooms.


1 And we talked about bypass procedures, if 2 it was possible, if we had somebody that was critically 3 ill that needed specialized treatment, for example, a 4 burn, the burn unit was actually at Victoria Hospital in 5 London. 6 But the protocol, the ambulance protocols 7 at that time prevented that, so all -- basically all 8 patients had to be transported to the nearest hospital 9 for additional triage, and then at that facility they 10 would decide, unless they were overwhelmed, and then 11 central ambulance communication might start to reroute 12 ambulances, but that was... 13 We also talked about backfilling 14 ambulances as they were used. 15 Q: What does that mean? 16 A: So for example, if one of the 17 Ministry of Health -- we had two Ministry of Health 18 ambulances on the scene at that time, and if one of them 19 was sent out with a patient from the scene, how soon it 20 would be before that ambulance could be replaced on scene 21 for us. 22 And my understanding was that there were 23 crews that had been alerted, but they weren't sitting in 24 their stations, and that time could be as long as thirty 25 (30) or forty (40) minutes.


1 Q: All right. Now, what was your 2 specific role or roles as the medic for the TRU that 3 night? 4 A: My primary responsibility was to 5 provide medical support within what we think of as that 6 inner perimeter, that danger zone, primarily two (2) 7 police officers would be my first responsibility, and 8 secondarily, to others in that area. 9 Q: All right. Did you also operate or 10 function as the liaison as between the police and the EMS 11 personnel at the scene that night? 12 A: I -- well within the confines of the 13 parking lot, yes. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: The -- or the owner/operator, slash, 16 supervisor of the local ambulance service was actually in 17 one of the vehicles, so that's how we were able to talk 18 about response times and back-up, back filling for 19 ambulances, we use them, and those types of things. 20 Q: All right. And as -- as a general 21 rule, under what -- what circumstances were -- are you 22 able to enter into the perimeter, if you will, to provide 23 medical services? 24 A: I only go forward if I am requested 25 by the element leader on the ground.


1 Q: Of the TRU? 2 A: Of TRU, yes. 3 Q: All right. You indicated that you 4 told the EMS personnel that they would not be required to 5 go into the perimeter? 6 A: Not unless it was deemed absolutely, 7 100 percent safe. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: That they did not have to worry about 10 coming forward, for example, if there was any chance of 11 shots still being fired or... 12 Q: All right. Can you also -- 13 A: There are also issues there, when we 14 discussed this, I believe, about I hadn't had a chance to 15 view this ground, for example, in daylight. So, for 16 example, I didn't know how wide this road was, and from 17 my military experience, we tend to drive vehicles in 18 circles, so we have what we call an in-route into a 19 position and an out-route. 20 One of the things that I remember that we 21 discussed was, because I didn't know the road, and we 22 sort of didn't get a -- an answer that was -- none of us 23 had seen it, to actually what condition it was in that 24 night, because it could have been -- there could have 25 been barricades or those types of things; we didn't know,


1 we didn't have that information. 2 But assuming the worst they were, we 3 didn't want to have ambulances coming forward and then 4 having to back up to get out. That was another reason 5 for staging our major triage area in the parking lot. 6 Q: All right. And did -- you indicated 7 that there were two (2) Ministry of Health ambulances and 8 a St. John's Ambulance vehicle. Did you consider the St. 9 John's Ambulance vehicle to be part of the civilian EMS 10 services for that night? 11 A: Yes, I did. And in my discussion 12 with the two (2) attendants with that vehicle, we talked 13 about -- with the Ministry people, although I had trained 14 with, I believe, 3 out of the 4, if not all of the 15 Ministry people, because I'd actually been a part time -- 16 it was in a part time training with the Ministry for a 17 while, so I was more familiar with -- with their 18 capabilities. 19 But my understanding, when I talked to St. 20 John, the St. John people, was that although I wouldn't 21 hold them to the same standard because they weren't 22 professional, they were volunteer like I was, I was given 23 the understanding that they were there and they were 24 capable of transporting patients. 25 Q: All right. Now, what dressing were


1 you in that evening? 2 A: I was in standard protective uniform 3 and equipment that a TRU officer would wear on the 4 ground. 5 Q: Did you have any identifying markers 6 that would indicate you were a police officer? 7 A: Yes. I -- not a police officer. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: My gear is marked differently. This 10 is still a constant problem. I make every effort, as I 11 did then, as I do now, to remove police from all my 12 uniforms; they're replaced with flashes that instead say 13 'Medic'. 14 And that night, although I wear the 15 standard OPP flashes on the shoulder, my vest on the 16 front and the end was marked 'Medic' and I wore a medical 17 insignia from my CONTOMS Course that I took in Bethesda 18 at the Uniform Services University, that was on my 19 sleeve. 20 Q: All right. Just -- just so we 21 understand, did you have the OPP -- any OPP flashings on 22 your shoulders that night? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Did you have any -- what 25 -- what medical equipment did you have as part of your


1 kit that night? 2 A: Well my equipment at that time was 3 basically, including the bag, was because this program 4 wasn't formalized, it was basically -- well it was my 5 personal bag and the equipment in there I had either 6 purchased or borrowed, because I had borrowed equipment 7 actually from Victoria Hospital Emergency for this 8 occurrence. 9 And so I had an assortment of bandage -- 10 bandages and dressings appropriate to deal with the types 11 of wounds you would expect from ballistic trauma, some 12 basic splinting materials, ice packs, tensor bandages. 13 For airway equipment I had what we call 14 the nasal airways, which is a small tube that can go -- 15 be inserted through the nose into the back of the throat, 16 as I mentioned earlier, to keep the -- the tongue out of 17 the back of the throat. The same -- similar device 18 that's inserted through the mouth, an oral airway to 19 basically accomplish the same task. 20 I had intubation equipment, which is an 21 advanced airway technique to secure and protect a 22 patient's airway when they can't do it for themselves. 23 And that involves placing -- using an instrument to place 24 a longer tube, which basically runs from the lips down 25 through the vocal chords, into part of the air tube that


1 runs from the back of your throat to your lungs. 2 I had a folding sheet type stretcher that 3 I could use. And I had a bag valve mask which is a 4 device so that you don't have to do mouth to mouth. It's 5 a bag that, when you hook it up to a tube or a mask, you 6 can actually assist the patient's breathing. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: And I had intravenous solutions and 9 intravenous cannula's, which are a small tube that you 10 insert into a vein, to put that fluid into the patient to 11 assist their circulation. 12 And a larger version of that needle which 13 I could use to basically puncture their chest wall, to 14 relieve air that was trapped in there under pressure that 15 would compromise their ventilation or breathing. 16 Q: All right. And did you have a -- a 17 mobile vehicle of your own in which you -- or to which 18 you had access for the transport -- transporting injured 19 persons? 20 A: The -- yes. The procedure that we 21 had developed and we still use on calls is that we 22 designate one (1) of our vehicles as a -- basically a 23 rescue vehicle. 24 That night, that was one of our Suburban 25 vehicles, so I was able to collapse the seats in the


1 back. I was able to place -- I had oxygen equipment as 2 well, small oxygen cylinder with masks, I was able to 3 pre-position that in that vehicle, larger lights, some of 4 my extra IV solutions. 5 And the driver that was assigned for that 6 vehicle was actually P/C Zupancic. 7 Q: All right. Did you have a 8 defibrillator? 9 A: No. Defibrillators at that point 10 were just coming in to the -- the system, so I did not 11 have one. The Ministry of Health EMS vehicles, one of 12 them had one, I believe. They might not have. 13 The Watford vehicle at that point I don't 14 think did. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: But it -- the defibrillator, for that 17 nature of call, is not a high priority. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: So I wasn't worried about that. 20 Q: Were you qualified to -- to perform 21 an intubate -- intubation? 22 A: Yes, I am. 23 Q: And what is that? 24 A: Intubation is the placing of a -- a 25 longer breathing tube, 10 or 12 inches long that


1 basically runs from the lips through the back of the 2 throat, through the vocal cords, which is the entrance to 3 the -- what we clinically refer to as the trachea, but 4 colloquially is the windpipe that runs from the back of 5 the throat and then divides and -- and takes air to the 6 lungs. 7 Q: And are you able -- were you 8 qualified to perform a decompression? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And what is that? 11 A: The -- what that is -- well, first of 12 all, what that's done for is certain types of injuries, 13 gunshot wounds or sometimes just with a spontaneous 14 rupture of a weak area on the lung, you get air outside 15 the lung tissue that's trapped in the chest. 16 If this can accumulate in there, it can 17 produce a situation that we call a tension pneumothorax, 18 which is life threatening within minutes. 19 The -- it's life threatening because it 20 collapses the lung, so you decrease the ability of the 21 patient to breath and adequately oxygenate and supply 22 oxygen to their tissues. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: And if severe enough, it will 25 compromise the circulation --


1 Q: All right. 2 A: -- by compressing the -- the heart. 3 So it -- the way we deal with that is basically we -- we 4 puncture the chest using specific landmarks to identify 5 an area, and we relieve that pressure, allowing the lung 6 to re-expand and allowing the circulation to return to 7 normal. 8 Q: Okay. Now you've indicated that you 9 had various discussions with the -- the ambulance 10 attendants and EMS personnel in the TOC that night. 11 You've already talked about what those 12 dicussions were. You had indicated that you had worked 13 with either three (3) or four (4) of the Ministry or the 14 Ministry of Health -- 15 A: Well, worked with them on training 16 courses. 17 Q: Yeah. And do you recall who they 18 were? 19 A: One of the owner-operators was there, 20 Mac Gilpin. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: And I believe the attendant in his 23 vehicle that night was Cesare DiCesare. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: I remember that because it's a


1 different name, so. 2 Q: And the other pair? 3 A: The other two (2) names escape me 4 right now. 5 Q: Does Tedball and Watt refresh your 6 memory? 7 A: That's possible, yeah. 8 Q: Were -- did you know these 9 individuals before? 10 A: My recollection from that night was 11 that I remembered at least three (3), but I believe all 12 of them. In my capacity as -- in my last years when I 13 was working at Victoria, when I was working at base 14 hospital, we actually ran a program that I was the chief 15 instructor for, this basic trauma life support. 16 And we introduced that, and as part of 17 that we taught that to all the ambulance officers in 18 Region 1. So they were all aware of me and I was aware 19 of some of them. Now -- 20 Q: All right. So in -- 21 A: -- Mr. Gilpin I also knew because I 22 worked with him fairly regularly as he was an 23 owner/operator from my area. 24 Q: All right. Did you know the 25 qualifications of the four (4) Ministry of Health


1 ambulance attendants? 2 A: Yes, I had a -- not the exact of each 3 one but I -- I, for example I knew that they were BTLS 4 qualified and I knew that they met the minimum Ministry 5 standard as far as -- so they'd all been graduates of the 6 -- the EMCA program -- 7 Q: And did they -- 8 A: -- or its equivalent. 9 Q: So that they were paramedics? 10 A: I'm not sure they were all 11 paramedics. 12 Q: All right. And what about the -- 13 A: Because at that point in order for 14 them to be a paramedic they would have had to have de -- 15 been certified on the defibrillator. 16 Q: Okay. Did you have any understanding 17 of the capabilities of the two (2) St. John's Ambulance 18 vehicle personnel? 19 A: Well, I believed I did after our 20 conversation. 21 Q: Can you tell us what your 22 understanding that night of their qualifications were? 23 A: My understanding of the female that 24 identified herself to me as the attendant, was that she 25 was a nurse and that she felt quite capable of taking a -


1 - I wouldn't put a high risk or a severely injured 2 patient with them because transport is a specialty unto 3 itself. So -- but for lower risk patients I was given 4 the impression that she was perfectly capable of -- 5 Q: And -- 6 A: -- fulfilling that function. And she 7 hadn't received training from St. John in the functioning 8 and how to work within the -- her ambulance. 9 Q: Do you recall her name? 10 A: Baker I think. Karen Baker. 11 Q: Karen Baker. And what was the basis 12 of your impression that she was perfectly capable of 13 transporting a severely injured patient? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: I thought you did. 18 A: No. 19 Q: Didn't you say severely -- 20 A: No, I wouldn't. 21 Q: Sorry. 22 A: My -- I wouldn't send severely 23 injured patients. 24 Q: Okay. Sorry. What did you say? 25 A: I said less than severely injured


1 patients is probably how -- 2 Q: Less than. I'm sorry, I missed that. 3 A: Less than. 4 Q: Okay. What was the basis of your -- 5 your understanding, your impressions? 6 A: My understanding was that she 7 identified herself to me as a nurse. I found out 8 subsequently that that was not the case, however, on that 9 evening in our conversation I only heard the word 10 'nurse'. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: She, at numerous times including 13 during the patient -- when I asked her if she was capable 14 of transporting a patient, she gave no indication to me 15 that (a) she hadn't done that before, (b) that that 16 actually wasn't why she was there in the first place. 17 That was -- I found out subsequently that 18 she wasn't a nurse, that wasn't her primary function 19 there, but she gave me no indication at the time. But I 20 gave her several chances to identify if she didn't feel 21 comfortable or if she wasn't supposed to do that. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: In fact I believe even in our first 24 discussion I said, If we needed to transport a patient 25 would you feel comfortable doing that, and the answer to


1 that was yes. 2 Q: Now, you're quite certain that she 3 identified herself to you as a nurse that night? 4 A: Yes, I found out actually just two 5 (2) years ago when I was asked from two (2) detectives 6 working for the Coroner's Office, at the end of that 7 interview they related to me that in fact this individual 8 was not a nurse, in fact she was a student nurse. 9 Q: And do you -- all right. On 10 reflection is it possible, or is it your recollection, 11 that she identified herself that night at any time as a 12 student nurse or something less than a nurse? 13 A: Not to my recollection, no. 14 Q: And you -- you don't recall her 15 identifying herself as a nursing student to you that 16 night? 17 A: As a nurse, yes; as a student, no. 18 Student to me associated with the word nurse or whatever, 19 is a red flag. 20 Q: How -- 21 A: I have worked with students before. 22 The first thing with a student is they're not fully 23 trained. And I have worked with nursing students, 24 paramedic students, medical students, and since they're 25 not fully trained, it's not fair to put them in a -- in


1 a -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Vella -- 3 THE WITNESS: -- they're not capable of 4 putting them in a -- some positions. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 6 thought you were finished. I'm sorry. Are you finished? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I need a 9 break. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I would 12 be grateful -- 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Certainly. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if we 15 could have a break now or at a point that makes sense for 16 you. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah, I just -- well, 18 if I can just put the next questions so I can close this 19 off, please. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: We've heard evidence from Karen Baker 24 at this Inquiry on April the 20th, 12005 and under cross- 25 examination by Mr. Roland at page 87, the following


1 exchange occur. 2 "Q: Now, the indication from Mr. 3 Slomer's statement is that he was 4 informed that you were a nurse. Did 5 you inform him that you were a nurse? 6 A: No. I said I was a nursing 7 student. 8 Q: I see. 9 A: I have never let on that I was a 10 nurse at the time. I'm not an RN, I'm 11 just an RPN. 12 Q: So you told him that you were a 13 nursing student? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: And why did you do that? 16 A: I believe I was asked what my 17 background was and I wanted to be sure 18 he was aware I was not a paramedic or 19 an EMT or anything to that extent." 20 Now, does that alter or refresh your 21 memory of your discussions with Karen Baker that night as 22 to her qualifications? 23 A: My understanding of her 24 qualifications from that night, sort of related up until 25 two (2) years ago, was that she was a nurse.


1 2 Q: All right. Thank you. 3 A: I never heard RPN because that would 4 change the mix as well, because they're not as 5 experienced and they're not as trained as fully as 6 registered nurses. 7 I understood that she wasn't a -- hadn't 8 been -- hadn't worked as a qualified ambulance officer, 9 so. 10 Q: Thank you. It would be appropriate 11 now to take the break. Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 13 break. 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 15 for fifteen (15) minutes. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 2:30 p.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 2:47 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: Now, I take it that you were in the - 25 - at the TOC site when the CMU and TRU teams deployed and


1 started their advance along East Parkway Drive towards 2 the sandy parking lot? 3 A: Yes, I believe I was. 4 Q: And did you have any -- were you 5 monitoring any communication during the course of that 6 advance? 7 A: I had -- for a -- as part of my 8 equipment I wear a radio with a headset; the radio is 9 tuned to the operational TRU channel. 10 Q: And it was the -- the TRU channel, 11 not the TAC channel? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And over the course were you in fact 14 listening to the TRU communications over the -- over the 15 period of that deployment that night? 16 A: Yes, I was. 17 Q: All right. Did you hear anything 18 unusual or of concern in the course of listening to the 19 TRU channel? 20 A: Not that I recollect. 21 Q: Do you recall hearing any sounds 22 aside from voices? 23 A: I heard a series of sounds, not 24 through my headset just searing -- or hearing that I took 25 that could be gunfire.


1 Q: All right. Prior to that did you 2 hear any TRU officer in the course of the radio 3 transmissions say anything about guns, weapons, muzzle 4 flashes, or anything of the sort? 5 A: I was in and out of the TOC at this 6 point as well so I'm not sure how I heard it, but I 7 became aware of the situation that developed at one (1) 8 point. Someone thought there was a weapon and it turned 9 out to be an individual that was identified with a 10 walkie-talkie. 11 Q: All right. Did you hear anything 12 else of significance prior to hearing what you believe 13 were gunshot sounds? 14 A: No, I don't believe so. 15 Q: All right. After the course of what 16 you believed to be something like gunshot sounds, were 17 you called out? 18 A: Yes, when I heard those sounds I was 19 actually talking to the Ministry ambulance officers and I 20 proceeded across the parking lot towards the TOC and was 21 met partway by Officer Zupancic actually coming to get me 22 and he relayed to me that we were required to basically 23 get in our vehicle and go down the road, that we were 24 needed down there. 25 Q: And did he tell you what type of


1 situation or why it was you were needed down the road? 2 A: I'm not sure whether he told me or I 3 surmised. I believe I asked if we had -- if he had an 4 idea what we were going down for and he wasn't able to 5 give me any additional information. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Did you ever hear any TRU officer 10 request an ambulance at that time, in or about that time? 11 A: No, I did not. 12 Q: All right. Were you given any 13 information as to whether or not you might be going to a 14 gunshot scene or some other scene? 15 A: No, but my assumption was that 16 because I'd heard the shots and making those associations 17 that I was probably going into a -- a scene where there 18 would be gunshot -- 19 Q: Gunshot wounds? 20 A: -- patients, yes. 21 Q: All right. And as a result then did 22 you and Officer Zupancic take the Suburban and exit the 23 TOC site? 24 A: Yes, we did. He drove. I was the 25 front seat passenger. We proceeded out onto Eastway Park


1 Drive (sic) in blackout mode and proceeded forward as 2 quickly as blackout conditions would permit. 3 Q: And did you in fact see an injured 4 party? 5 A: No. Before we actually reached -- 6 referred to as the -- as "the scene" and actually before 7 we saw anyone we were actually directed to return to the 8 area of the TOC. 9 Q: And were you given a reason why you 10 were to return to the TOC? 11 A: No, my assumption at that time was 12 that either we weren't actually required forward or it 13 wasn't safe anymore for us to be forward. 14 Q: And upon your return to the TOC then 15 what did you do? 16 A: I believe I remained in the area of 17 the -- the immediate area of the TOC van with Officer 18 Zupancic. 19 Q: Okay. And at this -- at some point 20 in time thereafter, did the TRU team and CMU return to 21 the TOC? 22 A: Yes. I don't remember the CMU 23 returning as a group. I do remember TRU officers 24 returning. 25 Q: Okay. And were you part of any


1 discussions involving TRU officers upon their return to 2 the TOC? 3 A: I wasn't part of a discussion, but as 4 part of the routine as they came back, 'cause I was 5 expecting that someone had been injured. I sort of -- I 6 went out to see if anyone needed my assistance and I 7 didn't partic -- or I didn't partake in any 8 conversations, that I can remember. 9 Q: All right. Did you overhear any 10 conversations of note involving TRU team members when 11 they came back to the TOC? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: What did you hear? 14 A: My recollection was multiple officers 15 had actually fired their weapons. And I remember 16 specifically Ken Deane describing that he had fired, and 17 believed that he had struck an individual, that that 18 individual had fallen down, but subsequent to that, two 19 (2) other individuals at the scene had picked that person 20 up and carried them back towards the Park. 21 Q: All right. And who did Ken Deane 22 tell this to? 23 A: It was just in general conversation 24 with the other TRU members. They were sort of in the 25 process of -- of what I'll refer to as sort of sorting


1 themselves out and their kit. 2 We knew that we were probably going to be 3 now redeployed for a -- some different mission. 4 Q: And did you hear anything -- any 5 other details conveyed by Ken Deane at that time with 6 respect to the circumstances of his discharging his 7 firearm? 8 A: I don't remember. I don't have a 9 recollection of any other details right now. 10 Q: All right. Did you learn anything 11 about whether or not there had been any other injuries or 12 casualties at -- in or around the sandy parking lot area? 13 A: With regards to that conversation 14 with the TRU officers? 15 Q: No. No, just generally. 16 A: No. Oh, later on I was -- I had -- 17 well, I was -- one of the ERT officers came to the area 18 of the command post and said that they had someone in the 19 -- in the van that they wanted me to -- to look at. 20 Q: All right. Now was this before or 21 after certain ambulances were dispatched? 22 A: This was after the Ministry of Health 23 ambulances had been dispatched. 24 Q: All right. Perhaps before we get to 25 that event, then, could you tell us the circumstances


1 under which ambulances were dispatched from the -- from 2 the MNR parking lot? 3 A: Well, at some point after TRU, 'cause 4 I can only speak to -- to TRU, TRU had returned to the 5 area of the TOC. 6 I went over -- well, actually, 7 backtracking a little bit. When Officer Zupancic and I 8 returned from moving down the road, I went over to update 9 the ambulance officers as to -- we'd gone forward but 10 we'd been called off. We're still not sure whether there 11 are patients down the road that are -- we're going to be 12 faced with. 13 After that, I was sort of back and forth 14 between the TOC and the ambulance crews. And at some 15 point, whether over their radio or whether over our 16 radio, I became aware of the fact that somebody was 17 requesting two (2) ambulances to be dispatched to the 18 area of the main gate of the army camp. 19 Q: All right. And what, if anything, 20 happened as a result of receiving that communication? 21 A: When I became aware that ambulances 22 were being sent up there I was concerned for the safety 23 of the crews, because ambulances can be requested by 24 anyone. So someone accessing the regular 911 system 25 could request an ambulance for that area, which would be


1 perfectly reasonable. 2 However, because it's a -- there's a 3 tactical situation here, it may not be safe for those 4 crews to proceed there, so I wanted to be sure that that 5 area was safe and under control by OPP and -- so that it 6 would be safe for the crew to go up there and assess what 7 was going on. 8 Q: And did you make those inquiries? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: What was the result? 11 A: The result was that the crews were 12 dispatched by central ambulance communications to the 13 area of the gate at Army Camp Road. 14 Q: Now, did you inform the -- the two 15 MOH ambulance drivers that they were to go to Army Camp 16 Road and twenty-one (21)? 17 A: Well actually it's not my decision. 18 And again, I'm not sure how that information came to us, 19 it sort of -- we were sort of standing there talking and 20 I'm not sure whether I heard it over my radio or over 21 their radio, because it was in speaker mode. 22 But the actual dispatching of the 23 ambulances, all -- all Ministry of Health ambulance 24 movement is controlled by the dispatch centre, 25 ultimately. So those ambulances, if they are going to


1 leave the scene or move, have to notify dispatch of their 2 movements. 3 Q: Did you tell them, though, to proceed 4 to Army Camp Road at Highway 21? 5 A: I told them that I had checked 6 through the -- through the TOC, and I had been told that 7 it was safe for them to proceed up there, that the area 8 was under OPP control, it was considered safe. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And after the two Ministry of Health 13 ambulances were dispatched, did you have any -- sorry, 14 were they -- were they replaced? 15 A: No, not immediately. 16 Q: And did that cause you any concerns? 17 A: Yes, because I still didn't -- I 18 can't remember at this point whether the -- I had sort of 19 lost track of the crowd management unit, I didn't know 20 where they were, and I -- and the feeling that there were 21 casualties out there somewhere, because there had been a 22 lot of shots fired, and Officer Deane had said that he 23 had actually thought he had hit someone, so -- 24 Q: And did you -- what did you do as a 25 result of that concern?


1 A: Well I think before I could actually 2 act on it, when I was sort of trying to figure out what 3 was -- how -- I was presented with a patient. 4 Q: And can you tell me the circumstances 5 of being presented with a patient? 6 A: One of the ERT members came to the 7 area of the TOC and said that, in a van, in the parking 8 lot, which I understand was that prisoner van, there was 9 a person in custody that they felt needed to be assessed 10 and may need medical attention. 11 Q: Do you recall who the ERT person was 12 who gave this information? 13 A: No, I do not. 14 Q: All right. And were you told 15 anything else about the circumstances of this person in 16 the prisoner van? 17 A: I believe, because part of your role 18 in EMS is the same as I had asked Officer Zupancic, if he 19 had any idea what we were going down the road for, which 20 he wasn't able to add to that. 21 I believe that I asked this -- the ERT 22 officer, when we were walking over to the van, what the 23 nature of this fellow's injuries were, like was it a 24 gunshot or -- or whatever, and he said -- my recollection 25 is that (a) I wasn't facing a patient with a gunshot


1 wound, that this is someone who had basically been in a 2 fight with the CMU. 3 Q: All right. And so then what -- what 4 happened after you received this information and you 5 walked towards the prisoner van? 6 A: We went to the van. I believe the 7 back doors were open, there was a -- a Native Canadian 8 individual there who was handcuffed, lying on his side on 9 the floor of the van. 10 Q: And when you say, "handcuffed," where 11 was he handcuffed? 12 A: He was handcuffed behind, in his -- 13 with his back. 14 Q: You said he was -- 15 A: So his arms were behind him. 16 Q: You said he was lying on the -- the 17 floor on his side in the van? 18 A: Yes, because there are no seats in 19 the back of this van. 20 Q: All right. And did you know the -- 21 the identity of this person? 22 A: I believe at some point through the 23 evening I learned that his name was Cecil Bernard George. 24 I'm not sure how I came by that information but I must 25 have had it because when I did my typewritten notes up, I


1 was able to put his name on the top of it. 2 Q: And did you receive any further 3 information from any other officer or -- or the officer 4 who introduced him to you, as to the particulars of what 5 had transpired or the nature of his injuries? 6 A: No, only that -- not that I 7 recollect, other than he'd been in this altercation with 8 members of the Crowd Management Unit. 9 Q: Now what -- what was the lighting 10 sources and conditions inside the prisoner van? 11 A: There was a single light bulb in a 12 fixture in the ceiling towards the back door end of the 13 van, very low, low wattage. And I had my small hand-held 14 flashlight. 15 I'm not even sure we had SureFires at that 16 point, so it might have been but it was more likely what 17 we refer to as mini-mag light, which has considerable 18 less light power. 19 Q: A mini-mag light? 20 A: Mini -- mini-mag. M-I-N-I dash M-A- 21 G. 22 Q: And when you first entered the 23 prisoner van you indicated you saw him on the floor on 24 his side -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- with his -- with his hands cuffed 2 behind his back. Did you make any other immediate 3 observations, of note? 4 A: When I spoke to him he didn't 5 respond. 6 Q: Okay. No, I mean as you entered the 7 -- the van? 8 A: No. Well, other than immediately 9 when you're presented with a patient you subconsciously 10 start an assessment, so I mean there weren't -- I didn't 11 see any pools of blood. He hadn't appeared to vomit onto 12 the -- to the -- the floor of the van as his clothing 13 appeared to be intact, those types of things. 14 Q: What -- what did you say about vomit? 15 A: He hadn't. I didn't see any vomiting 16 on the -- you look for blood, vomit on the floor. 17 Q: All right. And did you then commence 18 your examination? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: Inside the van? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: And was anyone accompanying you when 23 -- as you conducted your examination? 24 A: There might have been someone. I 25 don't believe there was anyone. If there was anyone


1 standing there watching me, I certainly wasn't aware of 2 it. My total focus was on the patient. 3 Q: Can you tell us then what type of 4 examination you -- you commenced with? 5 A: I initiated the primary BTLS survey 6 that I described earlier. 7 Q: So the Basic Trauma Life Support -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- Assessment? 10 A: And the primary survey portion of 11 that. 12 Q: All right. And will tell us what you 13 did in furtherance of that assessment? 14 A: What I found was that I had a -- a 15 male that wasn't responsive to me. I actually had to 16 touch him to get him to open his eyes, whereupon he 17 opened his eyes, sort of looked at me and -- and closed 18 them again. 19 I told him who -- who I was. I told him I 20 was not a police officer, that I was a medic, that I was 21 here for his benefit and I was going to assess him and 22 care for his injuries. 23 Q: All right. And just run us through 24 the course of the initial examination -- 25 A: Okay. Well --


1 Q: -- and what your findings were. 2 A: Now, the one (1) thing that here is 3 now where this is a tactical BTLS exam, so the first 4 thing you do, sort of after sort of taking in the overall 5 scene, is you do a quick sweep looking for weapons and 6 further dangers. 7 So rather than going immediately to his 8 airway, I checked his belt line and the area of his hands 9 for weapons, and then I proceeded to speak to him, rouse 10 him, and the standard BTLS assessment. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: He would open his eyes for me if I 13 touched him. Initially -- eventually I could just talk 14 to him and he would open his eyes, although it wasn't a 15 one-to-one relationship between my request and him 16 complying. 17 He was able to speak. He didn't appear to 18 have a compromised airway. He was open -- he wasn't 19 breathing too fast or too slow. 20 His skin condition was slightly moist, but 21 warm. In examining his neck, the back and the front he 22 had no tenderness. There was no gross abrasions, 23 contusions, anything that would make me think -- or 24 abnormalities to the anatomy that would make me think 25 there was a significant, life threatening injury there.


1 His trachea was midline. I sort of went 2 over his -- his chest, checked his pulse which I found to 3 be strong and regular at the wrist, which was reassuring 4 because it lets me know that he has a good, adequate 5 blood pressure. 6 So at that point, sort of take a little 7 bit of a breath. As far as the primary survey is 8 concerned, he presents with a altered mental status. 9 Q: And what do you mean by that? Can 10 you be more specific? 11 A: Well, decreased level of 12 consciousness is now a sort of an older term, because it 13 doesn't incorporate everything that can actually cause a 14 change in mentation, a change in the altered mental 15 status takes into account behavioural changes as well. 16 So the fact that he was able to give me 17 one (1) word answers was good; that was to his favour. 18 But the fact that he would only give me one (1) word 19 answers may be a sign of underlying pathology, same as if 20 he were to give me or ask repetitive questions. 21 That would be a -- a behavioural-type 22 sign, so... 23 Q: And at that time what were the 24 possible factors that you were considering as 25 contributing or causing this decreased level of


1 consciousness? 2 A: Well, I had noticed -- I was happy 3 with his -- his airway and I was happy with his vital 4 signs. And -- and the -- the cursory examination of 5 those and the primary survey sort of directed me that I 6 should be looking somewhere else for a cause of this 7 altered mental state. 8 And what I had noticed, 'cause I said 9 before, you're doing multiple things at the same time, 10 that he had some abrasions on the right side of his face. 11 He had certainly a swollen upper lip that appeared to be 12 lacerated on one side that wasn't bleeding, and I took it 13 as possible that he had some degree of -- of head trauma, 14 head injury. 15 Q: Had you noticed anything during the 16 course of the primary assessment with respect to the back 17 of his head? 18 A: That's part of the secondary. 19 Q: All right. Thank you. And was he in 20 the same lying down position throughout the course of the 21 primary assessment? 22 A: No. The -- the -- after I completed 23 -- I determined, after the primary, that I would do a 24 secondary survey there. 25 Q: And from that, does that mean you


1 hadn't, at that point, found any life-threatening 2 injuries? 3 A: No, I had not. 4 Q: All right. So then you proceeded to 5 the secondary examination? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: Or the hands-on examination? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: All right. And perhaps you would 10 describe what that consisted of in this case, please? 11 A: In this -- well, in all cases, 12 basically we go back to the head. Since I hadn't 13 performed any interventions as in the -- well, the first 14 thing I did was I counted his respirations and his pulse. 15 And I believe I did a blood pressure. It 16 would be -- and I remember that because it was difficult, 17 because he had heavy clothing on. 18 We started the -- we went back to the 19 head, we did a detailed, or started a detailed neuro 20 exam, so I checked his pupils. Again, I asked him some 21 questions and -- but only got one (1) word answers. 22 And then I started the hands-on which 23 basically started at the top of his head, feeling for -- 24 what I was looking for particularly was to see, besides 25 his -- the problem with his lip on the front, whether he


1 had something else. 2 I detected that on the rear of his head he 3 actually had a laceration, the -- the hair was matted. 4 Q: Matted with what? 5 A: Blood. 6 Q: Was it still bleeding? 7 A: But it was not actively bleeding, so 8 at that point in time it didn't need a -- a dressing. 9 I re-examined his neck, especially at the 10 -- at the back and individually palpated the individual 11 bones as best I could, and he gave no indication that 12 there was a -- there was tenderness there. 13 We did the -- or sorry, just to backtrack 14 for a second. I checked the pupils, to do the rest of 15 the scoring for what we call the Glasgow Coma Scale, it's 16 a measure of the degree of coma or altered mental state, 17 and there's three (3) components to it: One (1) 18 concerns eye opening, which I had already mentally scored 19 him for that. 20 The other was a verbal response, which he 21 had given me. 22 And the third was how he was able -- 23 whether he was able to move his limbs and things so we -- 24 as best he could within the -- the handcuffs, we moved 25 his limbs and I determined that he was able to do that.


1 Q: All right. And with respect to the 2 Glasgow Coma Scale, I understand that that involves a 3 scoring system? 4 A: Yes. It's actually a -- it's an 5 international standard scoring system for patients that 6 have had head trauma. 7 Q: All right. And how did you -- you've 8 indicated how you -- how you administered this test? 9 A: Okay. There's three (3) basic 10 components, and the individual components of the scale 11 relate to higher functioning centres of the brain, to the 12 lower functioning centres of the brain, so the -- the 13 higher that are affected, the more serious -- generally 14 the more serious you could take the head injury to be. 15 So in his case, for eye opening -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: -- it's either open spontaneously, in 18 which case you would score four (4), open your eyes to 19 verbal response, open them to pain, or unresponsive, 20 which is that mini AVPU type that we talked about before. 21 Q: And do you recall what score he 22 received? 23 A: Well, I -- I had to provide a 24 stimulus; sometimes he opened it to voice, sometimes he 25 -- I had to sort of shake his arm a bit, so he -- he lost


1 a point there. 2 Q: So -- 3 A: I scored him three (3) out of four 4 (4). 5 Q: Three (3) out of four (4)? All 6 right. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And in the second scale? 9 A: In the verbal response, although he 10 would speak to me clearly, when he did I'd get "yes" or 11 "no" or -- I believe that was the only two (2) responses 12 that I got. But I only got one (1) word responses, and 13 they were clear. I had no problem understanding so they 14 weren't garbled or he wasn't slurring his words. 15 So if he was able to answer questions for 16 me, he would score a full five (5), but he wasn't able to 17 do that, he was giving me one (1) word answers, so I -- 18 he lost a point there. 19 Q: So four (4) out of five (5)? 20 A: So four (4) out of five (5). 21 Q: All right. And then the third scale? 22 A: The third scale is motor movement, 23 and it's -- your -- you either move to command or you 24 move in response, how your body moves in response to a 25 stimulus. And the usual stimulus is squeezing of the


1 nail beds. 2 So at times he would move to command, and 3 at times, basically, I would pinch him and he would move. 4 It's sort of like the eye thing; sometimes he needed a -- 5 a stimulus. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: So I believe -- I believe we deducted 8 a point for that. 9 Q: And what was that -- 10 A: Probably gave him full points for eye 11 opening, I think. 12 Q: Why? 13 A: Part of the problem with being a 14 tactical medic is, and especially in this case, this 15 individual had just been in altercation with the crowd 16 management unit, I'm dressed in the uniform that's 17 similar to, certainly dressed in body armour, I mean, I'm 18 wearing flashes, although it says medic on the front. 19 And there's always the concern that the 20 level of cooperation that you receive from the patient 21 may not be full, as it would be as you'd sort of expect 22 in the civilian setting. 23 So, technically, well, this gentleman was 24 in custody, so some of the responses that I might be 25 getting are not truly indicative of his clinical


1 condition. So in the back of your mind is the thought 2 that some of this may be because he doesn't want to 3 cooperate with me. 4 And that would be -- someone who had had 5 training, for example, in the military, what we call 6 escape and evasion, or basically how to be a prisoner, in 7 military terms, may not want to -- may not want to 8 cooperate, and it may be they feel it to their advantage 9 to play possum. 10 And we have the same problem sometimes in 11 -- in civilian EMS. 12 Q: So you -- did you make an inference 13 that night with respect to the motor movement response, 14 that Mr. George was perhaps playing possum with you and 15 that was why sometimes he required a physical stimulus? 16 A: Yes. What I -- what I would normally 17 hope for in the patient, is that they were consistent 18 with their responses; that would be the best case 19 scenario. But someone who basically changes from minute 20 to minute, back and forth, sometimes gives you the 21 impression they are not -- you're not getting a true 22 picture. 23 So there's -- this is a little more of a - 24 - a variance. And what's causing that, whether it's a 25 behaviour thing, whether it's because of their head


1 injury, that's something that usually gets sorted out in 2 time. 3 Q: And just so that I understand, had 4 this mixed response to the motor movement been a head 5 injury related cause, as opposed to a behavioural cause, 6 would you have deducted a point? 7 A: Well I had deducted points based on 8 the -- the positive -- the positive findings. 9 Q: I understand you didn't in this case 10 but -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- my question was, I understand that 13 sometimes he required a physical stimulus -- 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: -- for movement, he didn't always 16 respond to a request. 17 A: Right. Well what -- the idea of the 18 scale is -- is what you basically do is score the best 19 response that you get. So, for example, if you score -- 20 sometimes in a totally unconscious patient, you actually 21 examine all four limbs, because depending on the nature 22 of the head injury, you may get differences in the 23 response from one side of the body to the other, because 24 of the way the nervous system is set up. 25 So I believe that actually, motor-wise, I


1 scored him the highest, because he had originally 2 responded to command. I asked him to wiggle his fingers 3 of his right hand, and he was able to do that for me. 4 Q: All right. And how many points is 5 that? 6 A: That would be six (6), that's 7 following command. 8 Q: Six (6) out of six (6) you scored 9 him? 10 A: Yeah. I believe so. 11 Q: Now you indicated that you had a 12 concern that he was playing possum or -- or being 13 uncooperative? 14 A: Well that -- that was a possibility, 15 I mean, as a -- as a health care professional that -- I'm 16 not going to attribute his condition to that. 17 Q: What led -- 18 A: That would not be in the best 19 interests of the patient. 20 Q: What did you -- what led you to the 21 concern that he might be -- that he was being 22 uncooperative, willfully uncooperative? 23 A: The variability of his response. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 2 A: The variability of his response. I 3 had worked with actually very severely head injured 4 patients, some of which those injuries turned out to be 5 fatal to the patients, when I worked in the -- in the 6 trauma unit. 7 I had seen similar patients in emerg and I 8 had worked with patients with minor to severe head 9 injuries as part of EMS and my experience told me that 10 you just didn't get this response, it varied minute-to- 11 minute. 12 In a true clinical condition, you get a 13 response that either varies -- either improves or 14 deteriorates over time. You don't get this fluctuating 15 one (1) or two (2) point thing. 16 Q: I see. All right. And so the score 17 that you assigned to Mr. George during the course of this 18 secondary assessment was -- if my math is right, thirteen 19 (13) of fifteen (15). 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And along the continuum of scoring, 22 where did that place him? 23 A: Well the maximum score in a conscious 24 patient represents to you would be fifteen (15). The -- 25 the low end of the score is a patient that's totally


1 unconscious that requires life support, so there's on a 2 ventilator to assist them to breath and they would score 3 a three (3). 4 Q: All right. And then in terms of -- 5 just so we can understand, in terms of using this score 6 as a measure or indicator of the possible degree or 7 severity of head injury, where does a thirteen (13) place 8 Mr. George? 9 A: Well, first of all the individual 10 number, although it's a -- it provides a baseline. The 11 actual improvement or deterioration of the patient's 12 condition as it relates to whether they're going to live, 13 die or have some sort of neurological impairment is 14 something that has to be trended over time. So multiple 15 scores over a period of time. 16 A single score ranging in the thirteen 17 (13) to fifteen (15) range would indicate that this 18 patient probably had a minor head injury. But time will 19 tell whether it's truly a minor head injury and he 20 improves -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- whether it's actually an 23 indication of something more severe and he continues to 24 deteriorate, basically lose points on the scale. 25 Q: All right. And how many times did


1 you administer this scale? 2 A: Twice. 3 Q: Twice? 4 A: Twice. 5 Q: And the first time was when in 6 relation to the secondary -- was it the secondary 7 assessment? 8 A: I would say within the first three 9 (3) minutes of seeing Mr. George. 10 Q: Within the first three (3) minutes? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: And then I actually repeated my 14 primary and secondary survey prior to speaking to the 15 ambulance crew that transported him. 16 So that would have been some -- well, I 17 think I only had contact with them for about fifteen (15) 18 minutes at the most, so I'll say the ten (10) to twelve 19 (12) minute mark, allowing time for a report to the 20 ambulance crew and preparing him for transport. 21 Q: All right. Just so I understand, the 22 length of the entire assessment was approximately how 23 long? 24 A: No -- the individual assessment or my 25 assessment period?


1 Q: Your examination of this Witness at 2 this -- 3 A: The examination of the patient -- 4 Q: Patient. 5 A: -- would be two (2), two and a half 6 (2 1/2) minutes maximum. That's the standard for 7 performance of that -- 8 Q: How long were you -- 9 A: -- assessment. 10 Q: -- with Mr. George, observing him? 11 A: Approximately fifteen (15) minutes. 12 Q: All right. And at what point in time 13 did you conduct the second Glasgow Coma Scale? 14 A: Approximately the ten (10) minute 15 mark. 16 Q: At the ten (10) minute mark? 17 A: Yeah. Are -- the pre-hospital 18 standard for patients is basically you re-assess them at 19 least with the primary survey at ten (10) minute 20 intervals. 21 Q: And what was the result -- 22 A: Or sooner if the warrant -- if the -- 23 Q: Sorry. 24 A : -- condition warrants. 25 Q: Sorry. What was --


1 A: Sorry. 2 Q: What was the result of your second 3 Glasgow Coma Scale test? 4 A: It was identical to the first. 5 Q: Was there anything different in terms 6 of the scoring or the -- the factors that went into the-- 7 A: No. As far as the scoring went, no. 8 Although I did notice that at the ten (10) to fifteen 9 (15) minute mark he appeared to be more forthcoming. 10 He was more -- I took it to be more 11 cooperative at that point. 12 He still wouldn't open his eyes. Well, he 13 would but I had to ask him, like he wasn't laying there 14 with his eyes open, looking around. And he was still 15 only giving me one (1) word answers although they -- 16 they were coming faster which would indicated to me that 17 if he had had a head injury that that was maybe clearing 18 a bit, he was able to respond faster. 19 Sometimes we think in terms of a football 20 player that gets his bell rung, sort of sits on the bench 21 for a couple of minutes and -- and is able to sort of 22 recuperate and then you ask them questions and they're 23 able to respond much more fully. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Motor-wise he basically scored the


1 same; he was able to move to command. 2 Q: And during the course of your 3 secondary assessment was he in the same position the 4 whole time? 5 A: At one (1) point I had actually sat 6 him up. 7 Q: Why? 8 A: I was concerned about leaving him 9 handcuffed in that position on the floor of the van 10 because of the potential danger of positional compromise 11 of his respiratory function; what we refer to as 12 positional asphyxia. 13 Q: And did you have to help him sit? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And once -- 16 A: But mainly because he was handcuffed. 17 Q: -- once he was sitting in the 18 position did he require any assistance to maintain the 19 sitting position? 20 A: No, I sort of propped his shoulder 21 against the wall. He was able to support his head 22 without assistance. 23 Q: And what if anything did you draw 24 from the fact that he appeared to be able to support his 25 head on his own in a sitting position?


1 A: Well, that sort of fed into the -- 2 excuse me, that sort of fed into that he may not be fully 3 cooperative. He was able to -- if -- if he was obtunded 4 or had a true -- a serious clinically altered mental 5 state he wouldn't have been able to do that so I was 6 reassured by that. 7 Q: Now, you're quite certain that he was 8 able to hold his head up on his own steam if you will as 9 opposed to being essentially propped up by the wall of 10 the van? 11 A: I didn't leave him like that but for 12 a short period of time, yes, and then we sort of propped 13 him. And that was more because of his general -- general 14 -- I wasn't happy with the way his body was so I didn't 15 want him to decide that maybe he wanted to shift his 16 position slightly and fall over. 17 Q: All right. And why were you 18 concerned about him falling over? 19 A: Well, then he could re-injure. 20 Q: No, but what gave rise to your 21 concern that he might fall over if left in that position? 22 A: He might just decide that he didn't 23 want to sit up anymore. He might forget that he was 24 sitting. 25 Basic -- it was just -- I have a patient


1 that has -- I'm giving the benefit of a doubt to that has 2 an altered mental state of some sort; the degree of that 3 remains to be determined by his -- his clinical course, 4 like over time. 5 But in the interim I'm basically 6 responsible for his safety so I don't want to put him in 7 a -- same as in the emergency room I would put the guard 8 or the side rails up on the bed; that would just be a -- 9 a standard. 10 Q: All right. You indicated that you 11 conducted a hands-on examination. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I trust that that means that you 14 palpated his body with your hands? 15 A: Yes, as well as I could. 16 Q: And what do you mean by saying as 17 well as you could? 18 A: Well, he had heavy clothing on his 19 upper body, multiple layers, so that the actual visual -- 20 ideally in the Emergency Room or in the back of the 21 ambulance I would be -- I'd take my scissors and we would 22 cut this pers -- individual's clothing off. 23 In the tactical environment that's not 24 always practical plus I had not blankets; all I had was a 25 foil blanket which are not bad but they're not really


1 good for -- for warming people. And it was cool out; 2 it's a September evening. 3 So we tend to minimize body exposure 4 except that is part of working in the tactical 5 environment and work around that. I was quite confident 6 that I could determine life-threatening injuries which is 7 what I'm looking for through his clothing. 8 Q: And what kind of -- what kind of 9 pants was he wearing? 10 A: I don't actually remember at this 11 point. 12 Q: What I'm interested in is could you 13 see his legs, the skin on his legs? 14 A: No, he had full -- he had long -- 15 long trousers on. 16 Q: All right. And in the course of -- 17 of administering your hands-on examination did you note 18 any -- any abnormalities or fractures or broken bones, 19 anything of that sort? 20 A: Well I was able, because you're 21 working through the heavy clothing, you're -- you're 22 using a fair bit of force when you're compressing. So I 23 didn't find that there were any areas of tenderness in 24 his chest and his back. 25 His abdomen was soft. He had a wrist that


1 had some abrasions on it. He hadn't been incontinent of 2 urine in his groin, and he hadn't been bleeding there or 3 nowhere on his clothing did I see indications of bleeding 4 underneath. 5 And there were no indications of 6 tenderness at any of his joints, or his long bones, or 7 his chest, that I examined, except the wrist. I didn't - 8 - because I could see that it was abraded, I didn't 9 actually flex that. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: I just left it. 12 Q: -- did you detect any other soft 13 tissue injuries? 14 A: No. But this is roughly fifteen (15) 15 minutes, maybe a little longer after the event, and 16 sometimes it takes longer for certain visual indicators 17 of soft tissue injuries to show up. 18 What I would possibly expect at that -- 19 what I would expect at that point is if there is a 20 significant soft tissue injury with a deep bruise, it 21 would be represented by an area of tenderness -- 22 Q: All right. 23 A: -- that I -- the patient would 24 indicate with a pain response when I palpated it. 25 Q: And did you detect any such injury?


1 A: None. 2 Q: All right. Now -- 3 A: I will say though, that although 4 there was no response when I did any of that, when I did 5 the minor finger test checking the limbs, that was -- it 6 -- he quickly moved; he was -- he was able to generate -- 7 he had intact pain response in all four of his limbs. 8 Q: Okay. So is this the pinch test? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: All right. Now, did the fact that he 11 was, that Mr. George was, handcuffed behind his back 12 hamper your ability to examine him in any way? 13 A: Well visually, yes. Like, he could 14 push his -- his shirt up on the front fairly high. 15 Q: And did you? 16 A: I believe I did, yes; that would be 17 standard. I usually -- basically do that. That's part 18 of the -- and we try to visualize as much of the body as 19 you can if -- when you're working around the clothing. 20 That's something that was -- you could push it up and 21 pull it back down. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: The area that -- I couldn't visualize 24 the area of the clavicle, the collarbones at the front, 25 so I was more careful about how I palpated those to make


1 sure that they were -- his shoulder area and along the 2 clavicle that there weren't areas of tenderness that 3 would possibly indicate a -- a fracture. 4 Q: And what about his back? 5 A: The back was a little more difficult 6 and we'd to examine that when he was on his side. And 7 basically it's -- what you're really interested -- you're 8 able to feel up to the base of the neck with your arm, 9 and palpate the individual spinal bones coming down, 10 which didn't elicit a response from him. 11 And you're also able to sort of sweep your 12 hands from the shoulders and down over the -- the flanks 13 in case there's a penetrating wound there and there's 14 bleeding that hasn't come through the -- through the 15 clothing, because there were multiple layers there. 16 Q: Now does that mean that -- did you 17 actually put your arm or hand underneath his shirt? 18 A: Yes, skin to skin. 19 Q: And what about his arms? 20 A: No, because of the sleeves of his -- 21 his coat. 22 Q: And -- or his legs? 23 A: No. It is not necessary in the legs, 24 because it's only a -- a single layer of clothing and you 25 can actually -- any blood of -- of significance for an


1 injury will show up on the outer clothing. 2 Q: Now, did you assess Mr. George for 3 possible alcohol consumption? 4 A: Well, my -- I have allergies and 5 usually in September they act up. As part of a regular 6 assessment, you take note of the smells, odours from the 7 patient, because some of those are clinically significant 8 and may give clues to underlying patient conditions. 9 For example a diabetic patient may have a 10 sweet odour to their breath. But not all alcohol can be 11 detected by the nose and not all intoxicants can be 12 detected by smell. So I didn't -- wasn't aware of 13 smelling anything but I couldn't really trust my nose, 14 but that didn't rule out there -- there might not be 15 something else onboard. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: And that would be a standard 18 assumption, to look and -- look for those things. 19 Q: What was your overall then findings 20 and conclusion as a result of having conducted the 21 examination as you've described it? 22 A: Mr. George was -- I assessed as 23 basically being a stable patient. All the vital signs 24 that I was able to look at, his pulse, his blood 25 pressure, his respirations, his skin condition, his


1 pupils, were all within normal limits. 2 He did have an altered mental state which 3 I deduced could be from several different reasons so I 4 was unsure as to what was causing that. 5 Q: Perhaps you could just indicate what 6 the reasons were that you were -- 7 A: Well, the first one is that he had 8 some -- he had -- he had trauma to his head. So the 9 first would be that he had some degree of -- of head 10 injury and the Glasgow Coma Scale at that time would 11 indicate that that was -- probably fall in the minor 12 category. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: The second is that there's an 15 intoxicant or some kind of metabolic state; it could 16 still be diabetes; post epileptic event that's causing 17 this. Poisoning would be one but that -- those would be 18 the -- the big ones. 19 Q: All right. And any other significant 20 findings or conclusions that you made with -- based on 21 your examination of Mr. George? 22 A: Mr. George -- well, basically there 23 wasn't much I was going to be able to do for him at that 24 point. The overall consideration when all this is going 25 on is that basically this an unsafe area in my


1 estimation. 2 Shots have been fired. I didn't know all 3 the -- all the details but -- and shots have been fired, 4 so this is dangerous area. It is fairly open in the 5 tactical sense, in that if people wanted to infiltrate or 6 basically sneak up on us they could at any time. So 7 there's an overall -- within in this whole context, 8 there's a danger there. 9 Mr. George's -- and then all of the 10 clinical decisions and this is what -- to where 11 tactically EMS is slightly different, it's made within 12 that context. 13 Mr. George had a -- an altered mental 14 state. The normal clinical way of handling that would be 15 to have him transported to a hospital where he could be 16 further assessed by the physician staff there, and 17 directly monitored by the nursing staff on a continuous 18 basis to see whether his clinical condition improved or 19 deteriorated. And then it would be up to them to -- to 20 intervene or transfer him on or if they didn't have the - 21 - the capacity to deal with that. 22 Q: All right. Now, did you perform any 23 medical treatment or intervention on Mr. George that 24 night? 25 A: No, I did not.


1 Q: Now, did you -- 2 A: Other than my assessments, yeah. 3 Q: All right. I take it, it would be 4 important for you in trying to formulate your clinical 5 impressions to know as much as you could about the nature 6 of the circumstances which gave rise to the injuries? 7 A: Yes and no. At this point the 8 primary consider -- well, there's two (2): 1 is the 9 overall safety, so the longer we -- we stay there, in my 10 estimation, was not -- we're just delaying further 11 assessment for Mr. George. 12 That was the first -- I lost my train of 13 thought there, I'm sorry. What was the -- 14 Q: That's all right. My question was 15 whether or not, generally, it's preferable to have as 16 much information about the nature or history giving rise 17 to the injuries -- 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: -- as possible? 20 A: So should I have -- the way I 21 understand that is, should I have gone and tracked down 22 somebody from the CMU to find out exactly what happened? 23 Q: Well, would that have been 24 preferable -- 25 A: That type of -- no. At this point in


1 time, I have enough information that the -- is that 2 information could follow him at some point. The hospital 3 could follow up on that. 4 I have enough information that basically 5 tells, me based on my knowledge of EMS protocols and my 6 experience, this patient needs to be moved now. That's 7 not critical. 8 Q: But was there anything critical about 9 Mr. George's condition that made time of the essence in 10 terms of getting him to a hospital? 11 A: Well other than we don't know exactly 12 what's going on in his head. If this -- if his condition 13 actually deteriorates, there is no intervention in the 14 field that would improve his outcome. 15 Those interventions all have to be 16 performed in the hospital. 17 Q: And -- 18 A: So for his safety, it's prudent to 19 transport him at the first opportunity, so that should 20 those interventions be required, they would be made 21 available to him. 22 Q: And so can I take it that you had 23 some concerns, at least, that his head injury might be 24 more extensive than it appeared to be, based on your 25 examination?


1 A: That's always a consideration. 2 Q: Was that a real consideration or 3 concern that night? 4 A: Well that was the major concern. 5 Remem -- back to he has a head injury, it's time, and the 6 time will tell how this works, whether he gets clinically 7 better or deteriorates. 8 I mean you can sit and look at him or 9 watch him in the parking lot and basically I can do 10 almost the same things that we would do in the emergency 11 room. 12 The problem with that is then, if he 13 deteriorates, we're basically behind the 8 ball, and 14 we're rushing to catch up. 15 Those interventions, should they be 16 required, I think it's better to have those available. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: So transport is an issue, and under 19 the BTLS protocol, patients with altered mental states at 20 that time were considered priority 1's, which required 21 immediate transport. 22 Q: All right. And you'd indicated that 23 you -- you considered the -- or that you were concerned 24 that the TOC site was unsafe? 25 A: Yeah, well, yes, relatively.


1 Q: And had you been given any indication 2 that -- that the -- from any TRU officer or the incident 3 commander, that it was an unsafe location? 4 A: No. That was based on my fourteen 5 (14) years' experience as a military officer and my 6 experience with TRU tactical operations. 7 I had never been on a TRU operation, that 8 I could remember up to that point, where we were faced by 9 a -- basically a group of people that could be considered 10 hostile. 11 I mean, there had been a -- some sort of 12 riot type occurrence, so there's multiple perpetrators, 13 for want of a better word. 14 How far they wanted to take this, I had no 15 idea. My assumption at that time was that the -- or I 16 had -- not the assumption, I had heard what I took to be 17 shots fired, that had been confirmed by -- by members of 18 my team that returned to the area of the TOC. 19 And just looking at the situation; we're 20 in the middle of a parking lot, it's open area, except 21 for the odd scrub bush and hillock for 50 to 75 metres. 22 Unless we had enough officers to stand shoulder to 23 shoulder in that area, I wouldn't consider that secure. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: We're not even in a structure, we're


1 in a van. 2 Q: Now if you go to Tab 18, please, 3 Exhibit P-1612, the last page of that document you've 4 identified as the transcription of your rough notes? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And do you recall when you made the 7 original notes that are the subject of this 8 transcription? 9 A: I made these shortly after 10 transferring Mr. George to the ambulance crew. 11 Q: Okay. And if I look at it, so that 12 we understand how to -- 13 A: Yeah, there's some abbreviations in 14 here. 15 Q: Yes. "Dx" stands for diagnosis? 16 A: Yes, "Dx" is a standard medical term 17 for diagnosis; that was my working diagnosis. 18 Q: Decreased level of consciousness. 19 A: Yeah, what I would now call altered 20 mental status. 21 Q: And "MOI"? 22 A: Mechanism of injury. Run-in with the 23 CMU, so Crowd Management Unit which -- basically a blunt 24 trauma. I would probably rephrase that differently 25 today, I'd be more specific.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: Blunt trauma from an altercation is 3 probably how I would phrase it today? 4 Q: That's what you observed? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then: 7 "Presents with a decreased level of 8 consciousness on floor of prisoner 9 van." 10 A: Right. So that's how I originally 11 saw him. 12 Q: The Glasgow Coma Scale of -- score of 13 thirteen (13)? 14 A: Yeah. And the individual numbers 15 refer to three (3) for eye opening -- 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: -- four (4) out of five (5) for 18 verbal, and six (6) out of six (6) for motor, for 19 thirteen (13) out of fifteen (15). 20 Q: Now what does "No CSF" mean? 21 A: "CSF" refers to cerebral spinal 22 fluid. So if you have certain types of -- one (1) of the 23 -- the problems with having a -- a blow to head, where 24 the laceration was, at the base of the skull, is you can 25 develop a -- what can be a very serious condition called


1 a basal skull fracture. 2 It's often overlooked in the field and 3 emergency medicine requires that you look for specific 4 signs, bruising behind the ears, specific pattern type 5 bruising that can appear around the eyes, none of which 6 Mr. George showed. 7 But the other indication of that would be 8 a clear or slightly yellow fluid that leaks from the ears 9 or the nose. 10 Q: All right. Thank you. Now after you 11 -- you concluded your examination, what did you do with 12 the -- the patient? 13 A: I believe -- I'm not sure whether I 14 went over or one (1) of -- well, one (1) of the ERT 15 members was close by because this is a -- this 16 gentleman's in custody. One (1) of us -- I said that we 17 needed an ambulance or I knew that we -- I -- I don't 18 believe I -- I think I had one (1) of the ERT members go 19 because I usually stay with my patient. 20 Anyway, the only ambulance available in 21 the parking lot was St. John. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: So I went and spoke to them, spoke to 24 the attendant Karen Baker and advised her that I had this 25 gentleman with a decreased level of consciousness, told


1 her how I had scored him on the Glasgow Coma Scale, 2 basically what I had determined from my Basic Trauma Life 3 Support survey, both the primary and the secondary part, 4 that he had stable vital signs, that I had no reason to 5 expect that he would do anything else except stay that 6 way, but he needed prompt transport to the hospital. 7 There wasn't -- there was the -- they were 8 the only vehicle in the parking lot, and I believed that 9 the -- well, best case scenario was that there might 10 possibly -- somebody might have acted a backup ambulance, 11 but I had no way of checking that right away, and here 12 was a -- a vehicle with a crew that I took to be capable 13 of performing this task. 14 This is something that I believed to be 15 well within their capability, and they gave me no reason 16 to believe that it wasn't, because they didn't refuse the 17 patient, they accepted the patient. 18 Q: Are you quite certain that you 19 indicated to Ms. Baker that Mr. George presented with a 20 decreased level of consciousness? 21 A: Absolutely. That was the primary 22 reason why I needed him sent. 23 Q: All right. Did Ms. Baker or Mr. 24 Morgan raise any concerns with you with respect to their 25 limitations or concerns about transporting this patient?


1 A: None. And had they expressed even 2 the slightest concern, I would not have sent him with 3 them. 4 Q: Did you have any concerns with 5 respect to the limit -- the -- the capabilities of the 6 St. John's Ambulance vehicle, in terms of transporting 7 this patient as quickly as possible to the hospital? 8 A: No. What I believed -- I actually 9 went through a quick mental process; I knew I wanted to 10 transport Mr. George in a timely fashion and as soon as 11 possible, basically, for the safety concerns in the 12 environment and for his safety with regards to a 13 deteriorating clinical course. 14 I had actually -- I didn't want him 15 transported in the back of the van the way he was, 16 because he's rattling around on a metal floor, that's not 17 good. 18 The other option would have been to have 19 put him in a cruiser. We get patients presenting like 20 this all the time, driven to the emergency room in the 21 backs of cars, who come from football games and baseball 22 games and falling off the -- the family deck. 23 I decided that that wasn't the best option 24 because there's not good lighting in the cruising -- 25 cruiser, so they wouldn't be able to detect changes in


1 colour, which may indicate respiratory or cardiovascular 2 changes, should they occur. 3 And the -- we'd probably be -- well we 4 would be limited then to two (2) officers, one may ride 5 in the back with him, he may not, but it would be pretty 6 crowded back there with an officer and Mr. George, so 7 they may end up sitting him up, which I didn't think was 8 a good idea. 9 Head injured patients do much better if 10 physiologically they're sort of put at rest and they're 11 allowed to recline. So I wanted him transported in a 12 lying -- laying down fashion. 13 Q: Now, -- 14 A: And the option for that then, and 15 what I was left with, was a St. John vehicle. 16 Q: Now were -- were you aware that the 17 St. John's Ambulance vehicle was not a licensed ambulance 18 under the Ministry of -- by the Ministry of Health? 19 A: Oh, I realized that it wasn't a 20 Ministry of Health vehicle, yes. It's -- I had had -- at 21 the point in time, when I had contact with St. John 22 Ambulance, was when I was working at the base hospital. 23 At that point they were actually 24 transporting patients, this was during part of the early 25 transition with ambulance services, and they would --


1 they actually offered a service to the public where, for 2 a donation, they would pick someone up and take them to - 3 - to have their X-ray done or a clinic done, say from 4 their residence. 5 That was at the point in time where the 6 civilian end, or the Ministry's system was starting to 7 get a little stressed. So it wasn't uncommon, I knew 8 that they transported patients in some form, that -- that 9 wasn't totally foreign to me. 10 Q: Were you aware that the St. John's 11 Ambulance vehicle did not have direct communication 12 capabilities with the -- the hospital or the central 13 ambulance dispatch centre? 14 A: Yes, I knew that. 15 Q: And that meant then that -- that they 16 could not receive messages through that system from 17 hospitals? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And you indicated that one -- that 20 what was really important here was that Mr. George, 21 because of the nature of his injury, be transported in a 22 timely fashion to a hospital for further observation? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And was there any discussion with 25 respect to what hospital that would be?


1 A: It would be the closest hospital. 2 Q: Which was...? 3 A: Strathroy. 4 Q: Now, wouldn't it have been important, 5 or did you consider the possibility that the Strathroy 6 Hospital, for other reasons, might not have the capacity 7 to receive this patient, and in the normal course, would 8 then direct the ambulance to go to another hospital? 9 A: Well, unless there had been some kind 10 of disaster with multiple patients presenting to the 11 emergency department, they would be quite capable of -- 12 of looking at him. 13 Q: I understand -- 14 A: And taking care of him -- 15 Q: -- that. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: But that wasn't my question. The 18 question was -- 19 A: Which -- 20 Q: -- did you consider the fact that if 21 there was -- they were incapable of taking an additional 22 patient, that there would be no direct means to divert 23 the St. John's ambulance vehicle to the next closest 24 hospital? 25 A: No, because this patient, even now,


1 probably wouldn't -- or might not even receive a patch 2 from ambulance dispatch on this patient if they were 3 coming into my emergency department today. 4 Q: The fact of the matter is -- 5 A: So -- 6 Q: -- that -- that -- 7 A: -- pre-notification, although it's 8 very nice, ideally -- well, not ideally, 'cause I work in 9 the emergency department, you really only want to know 10 about the truly -- you want to know about the life 11 threatened patients and the truly serious patients, 12 because they usually -- they require preparations and 13 usually specific rooms, like resuscitation rooms or... 14 This patient, given his condition would be 15 a lower priority patient, and even today would not 16 necessarily rate a patch, pre-notification to the 17 emergency room. 18 Q: Were you aware that the St. John's 19 Ambulance vehicle did not have a defibrillator? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did that cause you any concern 22 with respect to the potential treatment issues that might 23 be facing this patient en route to the hospital? 24 A: No. The -- if this patient 25 deteriorated to the point where he needed a


1 defibrillator, the defibrillator is -- that's not his 2 problem. His problem is his head. 3 He has a -- would have an active bleed in 4 his head that was -- the way the skull is designed, if 5 you have an active bleed there, there's cerebral spinal 6 fluid and there's blood and there's brain. 7 If you increase the volume of one, 8 something else has to give, and physiologically, if you 9 suddenly get a large amount of blood in this enclosed 10 box, what it does is it pushes the brain down through the 11 very small hole at the bottom, what we call herniation; 12 that is fatal. 13 And as part of that process of the 14 herniation, it affects the cardiac and the respiratory 15 centres. The defibrillator is not going to fix that. 16 The defibrillator is very specific. It 17 deals with sudden cardiac death from ischemic heart 18 disease. 19 Q: All right. Would you have sent Cecil 20 Bernard George with Karen Baker had you known that she 21 was a student nurse, as opposed to a registered or other 22 nurse? 23 A: No, because I would have then, in my 24 mind, she would have been in the same category as the 25 police officers.


1 And I believe that although he wasn't 2 serious and I didn't expect him to change en route to 3 hospital, he was entitled to a certain level of care 4 which was beyond the level of a basic first aider. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: And I believed that -- I believed her 7 to have those skills. 8 Q: All right. And that was based on 9 what you heard her tell you -- 10 A: Based on our -- 11 Q: -- earlier. 12 A: -- conversation and the fact that she 13 gave me no indication at any time that -- that she didn't 14 have those skills or had reservations about what she was 15 taking on. 16 Q: Now, could you have accompanied this 17 patient to the hospital if, in your medical judgment, it 18 was -- would have been a prudent thing to do? 19 A: Yes. The issue with that, though, is 20 that's not my primary responsibility. My primary 21 responsibility was to, as I said before, work with TRU 22 within that perimeter that regular EMS couldn't. 23 So had I left the scene, and regular EMS 24 had come in, now there is no medical coverage within that 25 perimeter.


1 So that really wasn't an option. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: For me to leave the scene, I would 4 have to perform some intervention that required my level 5 of skill and expertise to monitor during transport. 6 So, for example, if I had intubated this 7 patient, placing that tube through the lips into the -- 8 the lungs, or he needed a -- assisted ventilation, I 9 would have accompanied this patient. 10 Q: All right. Did you consider seeing 11 if another Ministry of Health ambulance was available to 12 take Mr. George in a timely way? 13 A: No, I didn't. My understanding was 14 that the -- the closest ambulance to us was thirty (30) 15 or forty (40) minutes away. I think the -- the Ministry 16 of Health vehicles had left the -- it was only a short 17 time, in my mind, that evening. And I'm -- I'm still not 18 sure what time they actually left. 19 But in my mind there was a very short 20 interval between when they left the parking lot and I was 21 faced with this, so what I -- the last thing that I had 22 been told, that the closest backup was thirty (30) to 23 forty (40) minutes away. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: And short of having direct contact


1 with dispatch in the parking lot, which unfortunately 2 that communication system left with the ambulances, I had 3 no way of quickly checking that. 4 Q: Now can you estimate the approximate 5 amount of time which transpired from the point when Cecil 6 Bernard George was brought to the TOC, or entered the TOC 7 site, to the point where the St. John Ambulance departed 8 the TOC site? 9 A: My belief, it was between ten (10) 10 and fifteen (15) minutes, fifteen (15) minutes at the 11 most. 12 Q: Did -- did you not indicate to me 13 that you had him under observation for about fifteen (15) 14 minutes? 15 A: Well, I consider observation from the 16 time that I first lay eyes on him until -- 17 Q: All right. 18 A: -- he's loaded on the stretcher. 19 Q: Okay. And so did the -- how -- how 20 was Mr. George transported then from the prisoner van to 21 the St. John's Ambulance vehicle? 22 A: I believe... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 A: I believe he was -- oh, I can't 2 remember for sure how we got him to the stretcher, but he 3 was transported on his side, which is the safest way to 4 transport patients. 5 Q: All right. And did you place the 6 collar on him? 7 A: No, I did not. 8 Q: In the normal course, with this kind 9 of a suggested head injury, would that be the prudent 10 thing to do? 11 A: That's debatable in EMS circles. 12 That's an -- 13 Q: Well -- 14 A: -- area of contention. But I -- 15 Q: In your judgment? 16 A: -- did not have a collar. I did not 17 carry a collar -- 18 Q: All right. 19 A: -- at that time, so I didn't have 20 that equipment available to me. 21 Q: And nor did the St. John Ambulance 22 vehicle? 23 A: Well at that point, when I made that 24 decision I sort of decided that he didn't need a collar, 25 because I had done this detailed assessment twice of his


1 neck and his spinal column. 2 He was able to support his head. He was 3 able to move his head through a range of motion, side to 4 side, back and forward, with no indication of pain. So I 5 was assured he certainly had no major injury that would 6 benefit from the use of a collar and a board. 7 Q: All right. And at this point in 8 time, when the St. John's vehicle departs the TOC -- 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: -- do any MOH ambulances replace it? 11 A: I believe at some point, and I'm not 12 sure of the time interval, there was a Ministry of Health 13 vehicle arrived in the parking lot. Yes. 14 Q: Did you receive any progress report 15 on the condition of Cecil Bernard George that evening? 16 A: None. 17 Q: All right. Where did you spend the 18 balance of your shift? 19 A: In the area of the TOC, with Officer 20 Zupancic. 21 Q: Until what time? 22 A: Basically for the rest of the 23 evening. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Until we were relieved at I believe


1 around eight o'clock the next morning. 2 Q: All right. Did you have to tend to 3 any other individuals that night? 4 A: There were two (2) members from the 5 CMU that approached me, not necessarily -- I wouldn't say 6 for treatment, more for advice. Basically what they 7 wanted to know was whether they needed to go to the 8 hospital now or whether it could wait. 9 One (1) had a minor shoulder injury and 10 one (1) had a knee injury. And my understanding from 11 them was that they had been struck by a vehicle, at least 12 the gentleman with the knee had been -- had been struck 13 by a -- or twisted his knee as he was getting out of the 14 way or -- there was a vehicle involved. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: But -- so... 17 Q: And do you recall the names of either 18 of these officers? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Was Officer Cloes one (1) of them? 21 A: I don't recall. I might have 22 scratched it down at the time but -- because I usually 23 record names and badge numbers. But it was an advisory 24 thing rather than a treatment thing, so. 25 Q: Were you part of any -- any


1 debriefing of TRU that evening, like after the St. John's 2 Ambulance left? 3 A: That evening? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: No. The -- that I'm aware, the first 6 time that we actually got together as a team was when we 7 were relieved and returned to our accommodations at the 8 Pinery the next morning. 9 Q: All right. And -- 10 A: There were -- this -- part of that is 11 because this was an ongoing event, so the team was still 12 deployed. 13 Q: And you indicated at the -- at the 14 end of the shift did you go straight to the Pinery? 15 A: That's my understanding, yes. 16 Q: And did you -- you said you had 17 conversa -- or discussions with a fellow TRU, or at least 18 with the TRU team? 19 A: Once there, yes. 20 Q: Do you recall what -- 21 A: I -- well, we're in -- sort of in 22 living quarters, so, yeah, there would be general 23 conversation. 24 Q: All right. Do you recall what you 25 discussed, or what was discussed in your presence about


1 the event? 2 A: To be honest, I was so tired at that 3 point, I remember very little. After the events of the 4 parking lot, things just sort of -- the TRU team deployed 5 forward, I remained in the area of the TOC, and things 6 were actually, from my point of view, certainly 7 medically, I wasn't called on to do anything and things 8 were pretty quiet. 9 Q: Did you have any further involvement 10 in relation to the Ipperwash policing operation after the 11 conclusion of that shift? 12 A: I remained with my -- in support of 13 my team until they were actually relieved somewhere the 14 next week. 15 Q: So one -- 16 A: We were there for almost two weeks. 17 Q: Two weeks or so. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And were you at the Pinery Park? Is 20 that where you were stationed during that two weeks or 21 so? 22 A: The Pinery Park for, well at least 23 the night -- or the day, I guess it would be, when the 24 Barrie team relieved us. We left there in what we 25 colloquially refer to as a bugout, it's a military term


1 for basically, pick up everything and go, because there's 2 a -- a danger. 3 I believe that someone had received 4 information that, in fact, there may be a -- a threat 5 from individuals coming into the Pinery. 6 Q: And where did you go then? 7 A: At some point we took up 8 accommodation in Sarnia, at -- at one of the motels in 9 Sarnia. 10 Q: Sarnia? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And were you involved in any further 13 call outs with TRU, related to the Ipperwash operation? 14 A: Call outs, no, but as part of the 15 general operations over the next several days, yes. 16 Q: What -- what were your duties then? 17 A: We were -- actually we were stationed 18 down the road from here in the -- the fairgrounds in a 19 large building there. The OPP had required the -- 20 acquired the services of an armoured personnel carrier. 21 And we were staged there on a rotating 22 shift basis with the other teams to provide officer 23 rescue in a medic -- and I was provided -- was to provide 24 a medical capability to that rescue. 25 Q: When did you first learn of the --


1 the full extent of Cecil Bernard George's injuries from 2 that evening? 3 A: The full? 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: I would have to say when I was 6 contacted by counsel for this inquiry. 7 Q: Do you recall giving evidence at the 8 trial of Her Majesty the Queen against Warren Anthony 9 George? 10 A: I do. 11 Q: If you would go to Tab 19, this is 12 Inquiry Document 1004976, and it contains the excerpt of 13 your examination-in-chief and cross-examination, from 14 page 111 to 126. 15 Now, have you had an opportunity to review 16 the contents of this testimony? 17 A: Yes, I have. 18 Q: And when you gave those answers, were 19 they truthful and accurate? 20 A: Yes, they were. 21 Q: And do you adopt them as truthful and 22 accurate today? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: I'd like to make that the next 25 exhibit, please?


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-1613, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1613: Document Number 1004976. R. 4 v Warren Anthony George, 5 Examination-in-chief, Cross- 6 examination and Re- 7 examination of Witness John 8 Edward (Ted) Slomer; 9 transcript pages 111-126, 10 October 03, 1997. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: Now, in the course of this -- of your 14 examination and cross-examination on October the 3rd, 15 1997, were you asked -- were you shown pictures, 16 photographs with respect -- 17 A: Yes, I was. 18 Q: -- to the injuries of Cecil Bernard 19 George? 20 A: Yes, I was. 21 Q: And were you asked questions about 22 the extent of the -- the visible injuries that were 23 apparent by those photographs? 24 A: Yes, I was. 25 Q: Now, did you observe apparent


1 injuries which you -- through those photographs which you 2 had not observed the night that you conducted your 3 assessment? 4 A: Yes, I did. And that's consistent -- 5 I would expect that. That's consistent with the 6 mechanism of injury and the time that I saw him. 7 Q: And perhaps you could just explain 8 that for us, please. 9 A: The -- the injuries that I -- were 10 brought to my attention through the photographs, mostly 11 involved bruises and contusions that take sometimes up to 12 twenty-four (24) hours, sometimes longer, to appear. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: So having assessed Mr. George at the 15 scene, they wouldn't be fully developed. Some of the 16 abrasions, which were small breaks in the skin, I had 17 noted, I think, in my note that he had some abrasions on 18 his face. 19 But the, basically what we refer to 20 clinically as soft tissue injuries, injuries that involve 21 the tendons, ligaments and muscles, usually aren't 22 detected until further along. 23 So that -- there were those injuries. I 24 suspected that there would be some, but I didn't -- in 25 the light and in the nature of the examination that I


1 conducted, I didn't see those. 2 Q: All right. Now we have heard 3 evidence at this Inquiry from a Dr. Alison Marr. Are 4 you familiar with her? 5 A: I'm aware that she is a family 6 physician that does occasional duty, at least in 7 Strathroy Emergency. 8 Q: Okay. Thank you. She was the 9 physician at Strathroy who examined Mr. George, both in 10 the emergency department, in or around or shortly after 11 midnight on September the 7th and on September the 8th. 12 Were you aware of that? 13 A: Yes, I was. 14 Q: All right. And if you go to Tab 20. 15 This is Exhibit P-367; it's a letter dated December 3, 16 1997 from Dr. Marr to Jeffrey House. 17 Do you recall Jeffrey House? 18 A: Not off hand. 19 Q: He was the -- the counsel who cross- 20 examined you at the trial of Warren -- against Warren 21 Anthony George. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: Does that refresh your memory? 24 A: I mean, I can't put a face to it, 25 but, okay.


1 Q: Thank you. And if you would look at 2 page 1, Dr. Marr has summarized her observations from the 3 emergency room examination which occurred around 4 midnight, September 6th, 7th, 1995 -- 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: -- of Mr. George. And she's 7 indicated the level of consciousness as: 8 "Opens eyes to voice, responds to 9 commands, single word answers, oriented 10 to person, not place or time, i.e., 11 slightly obtunded." 12 Now, is that consistent or not with your 13 conclusion? 14 15 A: That's entirely consistent with my 16 conclusion. 17 Q: All right. She also observed or 18 noted at that time: 19 "Laceration to upper lip and associated 20 swelling, [brackets] (required 21 sutures)." 22 You saw the laceration to the upper lip? 23 A: Yes. When I examined the laceration 24 and the underlying structures, I determined that it was a 25 laceration, there was swelling in the lip. That's a soft


1 tissue injury, it's not life threatening. 2 And it would have been significant in my 3 assessment, only if there were fractured or cracked teeth 4 underneath or there's mobility of the jaw indicating a 5 fracture. 6 Q: And the next observation listed: 7 "A 2 inch laceration at the base of 8 skull, posteriorly, [brackets] 9 (required sutures)." 10 Did you see that -- that laceration, too, 11 on your assessment? 12 A: Yes, I did. That was -- I don't 13 believe it was 2 inches, but I -- that's the laceration 14 I'm referring to that -- I was concerned about because of 15 it's positioning on his skull. 16 Q: All right. She also noted: 17 "Abrasion and associated swelling half 18 inch by half inch at the back of the 19 head." 20 Did you note that? 21 A: The abrasion, no, because I was -- 22 given the lighting conditions I didn't actually -- and 23 abrasions are not normally that significant. I was 24 looking for fractures and depressions. 25 Q: Did you --


1 A: So I didn't actually observe the back 2 of his head, I felt back there. I was able to feel the - 3 - the length of the suture with my -- with my gloved 4 hand. So that's how I can estimate how -- or the -- the 5 laceration, the cut, I was able to feel that with my 6 finger so I know how... 7 Q: All right. 8 A: But the abrasion wouldn't show up in 9 that type of an examination. 10 Q: Now she observed, apparently at 11 around midnight, bruises over the forehead. 12 A: Okay. Is there -- 13 Q: Did you observe those? 14 A: Because of the time interval these 15 are going to start to show up. 16 Q: My question is: Did you observe 17 those? 18 A: I don't remember bruises, I just 19 remember the abrasions. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: The breaks in the skin with maybe 22 some slight bleeding that would be readily apparent. 23 Q: Turning over to page 2 then. 24 A: Sure. 25 Q: Continuing with her observations from


1 her initial examination: 2 "On the body, abrasion on the right 3 upper chest." 4 Did you -- were you aware -- did you see 5 or were you aware of that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: "A linear abrasion 6 inch long on 8 upper back." 9 Were you aware of that? 10 A: No, because -- well, no, I wasn't 11 aware of that. 12 Q: The tenderness diffusely over 13 abdomen? 14 A: Well when I examined him he had a 15 large abdomen, but it was soft and he didn't -- there was 16 no pain response when I palpated it. 17 Q: Now just -- 18 A: So that could be a change. However, 19 having said that, usually if there's significant 20 pathology injury taking place in the abdomen, that 21 mechanism is usually very slow to occur, so it's not 22 going to -- like, almost like the bruising, it's not 23 going to show up in the first fifteen (15) or twenty (20) 24 minutes, possibly not even the first hour. It may take 25 hours.


1 Q: Before tenderness develops? 2 A: Before the tenderness develops, yes? 3 Q: Before pain is felt? 4 A: Yes. The way the mechanism works -- 5 I mean other than if you bruise the muscles externally, 6 but, for example, in a motor vehicle collision where a 7 patient has a -- what we call a seat belt injury, where a 8 portion of the bowel that has air in it gets trapped as 9 the patient is accelerated forward in impact, sometimes 10 it can burst a hole like a balloon. That releases 11 bacteria. 12 There may not be any pain from that 13 because other than the instantaneous bursting of the -- 14 the hollow organ, the patient may not be aware of that 15 because they're smashing into other things. 16 The bacteria now in the abdomen, the pain 17 comes from the bacteria basically growing and producing 18 toxins which interact with the abdominal wall to produce 19 the pain, and there's a time lapse in there from the 20 injury, depending on the type of bacteria, where this 21 occurs relative to the size of the abdomen; things like 22 that. 23 Q: What if the injury was -- and 24 tenderness was caused by blunt force trauma, would that 25 likely to be --


1 A: It would still -- still hold the 2 same. I mean it's not like you -- you roll over and 3 twist your ankle stepping off the curb and it's instantly 4 painful and you're aware that it's instantly painful. 5 Very often these take time to -- to develop. And I guess 6 probably the best example that maybe everybody can relate 7 to is an appendix. 8 Our usual thought of an appendix, because 9 it's basically the same process, relatively, but an 10 appendix will -- can -- it's a small piece that hangs off 11 an area of the large bowel, and you can get bacteria 12 trapped in there. It gets infected, it enlarges. That 13 in itself, in most patients, will cause pain. 14 In a group of patients it may not cause 15 pain and these are the ones we're most concerned about in 16 emergency medicine, because they come in, they may just 17 not feel right. So sometimes they go home and their 18 white cell count is normal. Their -- their blood test to 19 detect infection will read normal. 20 And then basically what we're -- what 21 we're doing is -- and you'll likely be asked to come back 22 say in four (4) hours or six (6) hours if there's no 23 change, so that we can reassess them. 24 What the physician is looking for there is 25 this progression. And until that appendix actually


1 bursts and allows this process to take place, which may 2 then even still take up -- an hour or hours, there may 3 not be clinical signs. 4 Q: All right. Now just the last thing 5 that was noted by -- 6 A: The other -- I guess the other thing 7 I should comment on is that injuries that we see in 8 emergency medicine may not be from the event. 9 Q: I appreciate that. 10 A: So that this diffusely tender abdomen 11 may actually be from a pre-existing condition that we're 12 not -- I certainly -- 13 Q: Well -- 14 A: -- wouldn't be aware of in the field. 15 Q: But you're speculating at this point, 16 obviously. 17 A: Well no, I'm -- that's -- that's a 18 clinical possibility that you -- 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- keep in the back of your mind. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: But if I had gotten a tenderly 23 diffused abdomen at the scene, when I assessed him in the 24 parking lot, I would have assumed that was from some sort 25 of trauma to his abdomen.


1 Q: Thank you. And then Dr. Marr noticed 2 in the limbs: 3 "Tenderness and swelling over the right 4 mid forearm and tenderness and swelling 5 of the right mid thigh, anteriorly." 6 Did you -- 7 A: Well the right mid forearm, and I'm-- 8 Q: Can you just -- 9 A: Is that wrist that I -- 10 Q: I'm sorry, could you just wait for my 11 question -- 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: -- and that -- that will help us. 14 A: Sorry. 15 Q: That's no problem. Did you observe, 16 at the time of your assessment, either a tenderness 17 and/or swelling over either -- 18 A: I believe on one of his wrists -- 19 Q: -- of those two -- 20 A: -- that I talked about earlier that I 21 didn't flex the -- the wrist. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: So I had noticed that there was 24 something at one of his wrists. As far as the 25 tenderness, the swelling of the thigh, it certainly


1 wasn't tender and it certainly wasn't swollen to the 2 point, when I assessed him, to be of note. 3 Q: Thank you. 4 A: That would have been significant if 5 it was -- 6 Q: Why? 7 A: -- grossly tender or grossly swollen, 8 because that could indicate a long bone fracture of the 9 femur, which is very serious because it can be associated 10 with significant blood loss. 11 Q: All right. Now, would you kindly go 12 to Tab 11 of your brief, this is Inquiry Document 13 1005720, it's Exhibit P-110. And I appreciate that what 14 you have in front of you are the black and white 15 photographs. 16 I believe you may have in front of you the 17 colour photographs? No? I wonder -- 18 A: No, these are all black and white. 19 Q: Yeah. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now these are the -- the colour 24 photographs, copies of photographs, which are Exhibit P- 25 110. And we also have them available to put on the


1 screen, but I don't know that that's necessary. 2 I'd like you to look at these photographs, 3 first of all, and advise whether or not you can recognize 4 the individual who is depicted in them. 5 A: At this point I can't positively 6 identify the individual, although some of the injuries 7 match things that I saw that night. 8 Q: Do you recall seeing -- being shown 9 any of these photographs during your cross-examination at 10 Her Majesty the Queen versus Warren George? 11 A: Yes, I was. 12 Q: And do these appear to be those 13 photographs? 14 A: Yes, they do. 15 Q: Thank you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Thank you. Now in retrospect, had 20 you known about the extent of Mr. George's injuries and 21 the relative lack of qualifications of the St. John's 22 Ambulance attendants, would you have sent Cecil Bernard 23 George in the hospital via the St. John's Ambulance 24 vehicle that night? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: You would have? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Why? 4 A: These -- I see nothing in these 5 photos to indicate that it would have changed my decision 6 that night. 7 Q: Did you not say earlier that had you 8 known the qualification of the attendants, you would not 9 have sent him? 10 A: Oh, yes, but based on these injuries. 11 I don't see anything in here -- these are not -- although 12 they're serious in the context of Mr. George's eventual 13 recovery from this incident, these are not life 14 threatening and they certainly -- there's nothing here 15 that would have changed my treatment in the field or my 16 triage decision. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: I -- it remains as major life threat, 19 which was what was going on in his head. 20 Q: Would you today trans -- send an 21 injured person requiring observation or treatment at the 22 hospital in a St. John's Ambulance vehicle? 23 A: No, I would not. 24 Q: Why not? 25 A: Which may -- that decision may be to


1 the detriment of the patient. But basically having been 2 fooled once, I will not let that happen again. That's a 3 -- that's a professional responsibility, and I take that 4 very seriously. 5 And in the future I will deal with 6 professionals, which means -- in pre-hospital it means 7 Ministry of Health, for transport. 8 Q: All right. Thank you. 9 Do you recall being interviewed by a 10 Detective Armstrong who was, at that time, assigned to 11 the office of the Chief Coroner as a Coroner's 12 investigator? 13 A: Yes, I do. 14 Q: And with respect to the death of 15 Dudley George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And would you kindly go to Tab 23, 18 Inquiry Document 5000059. 19 And this appears to be a transcript of the 20 inter -- of your interview conducted March 11th, 2003. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Is that right? 25 A: Yes. Yes, this is the ...


1 Q: And did you have an opportunity to 2 review this document? 3 A: Yes, I have. 4 Q: And are the answers that you -- or 5 the answers that you gave at the time, truthful and 6 accurate? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you adopt them as truthful and 9 accurate today? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: I'd like to make that the next 12 exhibit, please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1614, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1614: Document Number 5000059. 16 Interview of Edward Slomer by 17 Detective Armstrong, March 18 11, 2003 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: I'd like you to go to page 13, 22 please. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 A: 13? 2 Q: 13 at the bottom or 666 at the top, 3 if you're looking -- 4 A: Oh, okay. 5 Q: -- at the top number. 6 A: Sorry. 7 Q: It's all right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: And it appears that Detective 13 Armstrong presented you with a factual scenario as 14 follows, and I'm quoting now from the document at page 15 13. 16 "I am going to give you what I have 17 learned of the incident of -- in 18 relation to nature of the injuries that 19 Mr. George received." 20 And we're talking about now, Dudley 21 George. 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: "There -- there is approximately a 24 fifty-five (55) minute time span from 25 the point where he is shot until he is


1 seen at Strathroy Middlesex General 2 Hospital. The wound in question 3 strikes the left clavicle, proceeds 4 through the upper and lower lobe, or in 5 and out of the upper lobe, in and out 6 of the lower lobe of the left lung and 7 then lodges between the eighth and 8 ninth rib at the small of the back. 9 There is extensive bleeding into the 10 chest cavity; some 1000 cc's of blood, 11 causing a haemo -- a haemothorax. And 12 there is a small, narrow thorax that 13 has developed of a small nature, some 14 2, 3 cc's of air that is within the 15 chest cavity. 16 Do you feel that a patient presented to 17 you with these types of injuries would 18 have stood a better chance of survival 19 had you been able to deal with that 20 person immediately after receiving this 21 injury? 22 A: Yes. [by yourself]" 23 Defective Armstrong continues: 24 "Would you consider a person with an 25 injury such as that in great -- greater


1 jeopardy, the longer the delay is 2 before receiving medical treatment?" 3 And your response: 4 "Most definitely. They're in shock. 5 They're shocky and they have an active 6 bleed which is 20 to 30 percent of 7 their total blood volume, so it puts 8 them at risk for all kinds of things. 9 And because the chest is involved, it 10 decreases the ventilate -- the ability 11 to ventilate properly, and I'm not sure 12 of the mechanism but I think it's blood 13 spilling over into his good lung, then 14 he's even worse off, so." 15 Now -- 16 A: I don't -- I don't quite understand 17 that last phrasing myself. I don't remember -- I think I 18 know what I was trying to say with that exact phrasing. 19 I'm so -- 20 Q: All right. Well then -- 21 A: -- but I can explain -- 22 Q: With that qualifi -- 23 A: -- the process. 24 Q: I'm sorry? 25 A: I can explain what I was thinking --


1 Q: All right. Why don't you -- 2 A: -- said that. 3 Q: -- explain what you're thinking 4 before I ask you the next question. 5 A: Okay. The problem with any chest 6 injury is that for sure, affects the ability to 7 ventilate. I mean there's a hole in this gentleman's 8 chest. 9 The second problem with that is depending 10 on the path of the bullet, it actually interferes with 11 more structures. And the best case scenario is -- is it 12 basically goes in through the chest wall and only damages 13 the lung. 14 If it damages large vessels, the great 15 vessels or the heart that's obviously more serious. 16 Because he has a lung injury on one (1) side, depending 17 on how you position this patient, you can actually get 18 bleeding that bleeds into the lung, it follows the air 19 that normally transports air, if -- if they're on -- if 20 the -- if the bad lung is up, the bleeding can actually 21 transfer down and into the other lung where it can block 22 the -- the small areas there that allow the gas exchange 23 so essential for life. 24 It blocks the LVOI, so that although the - 25 - you have one (1) good lung and one (1) bad lung, and


1 we're designed that way so that hopefully it's -- it's a 2 backup system. 3 But you can interfere with that backup 4 system by not recognizing the position of the patient 5 incorrectly. You can actually compromise that lung. So 6 that's what that's -- the bottom part that's what that's 7 about. 8 Q: That's what that -- and then with 9 that explanation, do you stand by your -- your answers 10 here? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: And then what then -- what were you 13 thinking when you said that you thought that the patient 14 presented as described with these types of injuries, 15 would have stood a better chance of survival had you been 16 able to deal with the person immediately after receiving 17 this injury? 18 A: Okay, well this -- there's actually a 19 piece of information that I have subsequently learned 20 that I was not aware of. So that's one (1) point and I 21 wouldn't have access to that information in the field or 22 in my assessment. 23 The second part is, in giving me this 24 scenario, he's actually given me some information again 25 that I wouldn't have in the field.


1 For example I wouldn't know the volume of 2 blood that was determined at autopsy in the chest. I 3 wouldn't know that his pnaemo (phonetic) which is a typo 4 -- his pneumothorax which is free air in the chest 5 outside the lung, was only 2 or 3 cc's. 6 I would have to assume in the field that 7 it was actually much more than that. There is a very non 8 specific way of trying to determine whether you're 9 dealing with blood or air -- free air in the lung in the 10 field. 11 But it requires you to be able to hear and 12 what we call percuss which is basically you put your 13 fingers over the area that your percussing or we hold a 14 stethoscope there while you tap and based on whether the 15 sound is hollow which represents air or dull which would 16 represent some sort of a fluid level. 17 You can make that determination. 18 Personally I'm not that skilled. 19 Q: Well let me ask you this then. What 20 was the piece of information you subsequently discovered 21 that would have altered your belief if it would have, 22 that you could have improved the chance of survival of 23 this patient? 24 A: The deciding factor with this patient 25 -- well, there's two (2). There's two (2) missing


1 components of information. 1 is, although I know the 2 amount of blood that was in the chest and that was 3 estimated to be at a thousand cc's which is prob -- in 4 the average man, a 170 pound individual, that would be 5 about 20 percent of his blood volume. 6 But we don't know how much blood was lost 7 externally. So it could be another litre which would be 8 -- put him into severe shock. It could be more than that 9 which basically means he bled out and died because he 10 didn't have enough blood left to circulate. 11 The other -- the external blood loss and - 12 - oh, yes, the most biggie. I'm now aware that the 13 bullet, in passing or transversing the chest, actually 14 lacerated in some fashion his pulmonary artery which is 15 very severe depending on how it's lacerated whether it's 16 nicked or entirely severed and that -- that internal 17 bleeding, severe internal bleeding of a -- of a major 18 artery that you can't do anything about in the field. 19 Q: All right. So something that would 20 have been beyond your capacity? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Thank you. 23 A: Now, if it's a nick with proper life 24 support, with maintenance to his -- his airway and his 25 ventilation status and with some support with IV solution


1 to support his circulation you would certainly be able to 2 buy this individual extra time; the outcome may very well 3 be the same. 4 Q: Okay. Thank you. I wonder if you 5 could go to Tab 25, please, it's Inquiry Document Number 6 1005184. It's an excerpt from a Special Investigation 7 Unit follow-up report and it indicates that you met with 8 a member of the SIU at some point of time at least. 9 I don't see the date here but do recall 10 member -- meeting with a member -- a representative of 11 the SIU in the presence of your lawyer? 12 A: In the presence of my counsel at that 13 time, yes. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: I remember a brief interaction. 16 Q: And did you at any time give an 17 interview to the SIU, a substantive interview? 18 A: I did not. 19 Q: All right. I wonder if we could make 20 this the next exhibit but kindly note that the personal 21 information should be redacted. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1615, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1615: Document Number 1005184. SIU 25 Follow Up Report Re. Slomer,


1 December 28, 1997. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: Now, we have heard evidence that 5 certain items were procured and/or purchased or otherwise 6 distributed to various OPP officers in relation to the 7 Project Maple or Ipperwash policing operation. 8 Were you familiar with any practice with 9 respect to the procuring of, for example T-shirts or mugs 10 or items of that nature made to commemorate significant 11 OPP policing operations? 12 A: As a regular practice? No. 13 Q: All right. But you're -- all right. 14 A: I'm aware that after operations for 15 example T-shirts have been produced, yes. 16 Q: All right. And did you purchase or 17 see any T-shirts, mugs, pins, or other items which were 18 affiliated in any way with the Ipperwash policing 19 operation or Kenneth Deane's involvement therein or 20 Project Maple? 21 A: To my knowledge -- well, I certainly 22 didn't purchase any. I don't remember receiving T-shirts 23 or mugs. 24 Q: Or any other item? 25 A: To deal with Ipperwash?


1 Q: Ipperwash or Kenneth Deane's 2 involvement? 3 A: Partly because I watched the 4 testimony yesterday I -- yes, I have in my possession a 5 pin but I don't consider that in relation to Ipperwash. 6 Q: And which pin do you have in your 7 possession? 8 A: I have the pin that bears Kenneth 9 Deane's badge number. 10 Q: And can you tell us the circumstances 11 under which you acquired that pin? 12 A: I'm not actually sure whether -- 13 well, I don't remember purchasing it. Because I'm the 14 medic on the team and I put in -- I'm not paid for my 15 training time, only for my operational time so it may 16 have been given to me. 17 I certainly don't remember purchasing it. 18 Q: Do you recall the -- the -- when you 19 received it? 20 A: I believe it was some time after the 21 original Ken Deane trial but before his appeal -- 22 Q: Did you have -- 23 A: -- was heard; the first one (1). 24 Q: Sorry -- did you have any 25 understanding as to the circumstances giving rise to the


1 -- the distribution of this pin? 2 A: My understanding was that the pin was 3 basically a show of support for Ken. He had received a 4 conviction in the Justice system which he was in the 5 process of appealing, and which was a surprise to a lot 6 of people, and it was a show of support that just 7 mentally we were behind him and supporting him in -- in 8 his efforts that, didn't want him to feel alone. 9 Q: And did you see any other -- any, 10 sorry, any items or objects whatsoever affiliated in any 11 way with the Ipperwash policing operation or Project 12 Maple? 13 A: I believe I've -- saw the black T- 14 shirt. Well, I'm sure I saw the black T-shirt, although 15 I don't remember where and when. 16 Q: And what was depicted on the black T- 17 shirt? 18 A: I think it's the one (1), only 19 because I saw a picture of it either yesterday or the day 20 before. 21 Q: Can you just give us a description? 22 A: Yeah. It's the -- the TRU symbol 23 with the anvil and the arrow. 24 Q: And the broken arrow? 25 A: The broken arrow, yeah.


1 Q: Did you see any other logo or image, 2 whether it's on an object or not, related to the 3 Ipperwash policing operation? 4 A: No, I did not. 5 Q: Were you offered to purchase the 6 black T-shirt? 7 A: I don't remember. I just remember 8 seeing it. It's not something that I would have normally 9 acquired. 10 Q: Why is that? 11 A: Normally T-shirts, my -- most of my 12 experience with T-shirts is in the military setting and 13 similar to the police setting, T-shirts are a 14 representation of a cohesiveness that's produced on a 15 course, or some sort of joint venture. 16 So I mean, in the police area I know that 17 there have been, or I have received T-shirts for taking 18 part in joint operations at certain schools, for 19 completion of courses, or -- or there's joint agency 20 participation at schools or conferences. 21 This didn't fit that bill, in the sense 22 that normally a T-shirt is a -- you wear it because you 23 were there and it made you feel good. To be honest, this 24 T-shirt when I saw it didn't make me feel that way. 25 Q: Why?


1 A: Because Ipperwash for, in my mind, 2 was a bad call. It was a bad call in the sense that the 3 mandate of TRU is to assist in the peaceful resolution of 4 dangerous incidents, which means, nobody gets hurt. And 5 in this case, there were multiple people hurt -- 6 Q: Right. 7 A: -- both at the time and in the 8 aftermath. 9 Q: Did you see at any time in or around 10 the Pinery Park, a beer can which had a hole in it, two 11 (2) feathers sticking in sand in it, and OPP tape wrapped 12 around it? 13 A: No. I never saw any device like 14 that. 15 Q: Did you see at any time on -- applied 16 to the side of a police OPP cruiser, a bull's eye and 17 arrow, in around the time of the incident? 18 A: Not at the time of the incident. I 19 believe sometime subsequently I might have seen a picture 20 of that. 21 Q: Where did you see that picture? 22 A: It had been in the paper and a 23 magazine. 24 Q: Okay. Did you see an image of it at 25 the Forest Detachment?


1 A: It doesn't ring a bell. I'm sure it 2 was either the paper or a magazine or something like 3 that. 4 Q: Did you see any derogatory comments 5 aimed at the First Nations persons on a blackboard at the 6 Pinery Park? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Or any cartoons posted at the Pinery 9 Park which were derogatory in nature of the First Nations 10 persons? 11 A: No. I don't even remember a 12 blackboard there. 13 Q: Were you involved in any disciplinary 14 investigation with respect to matters arising out of the 15 Ipperwash policing operation? 16 A: No. 17 Q: As the TRU medic in the field that 18 night and given what you now know regarding the fatal 19 shooting of Dudley George and the injuries sustained by 20 Cecil Bernard George and others which you have testified 21 about, do you have any recommendations with respect to 22 responding -- or with respect to the -- how the medical 23 response component of this police operation might be 24 better handled in the future? 25 A: Actually I have three (3). I


1 actually wrote out a response. Can I refer to it? 2 Q: You have recommendations in that 3 respect? 4 A: Yes. I have three (3). 5 Q: Would you like to share them with us? 6 A: Sure. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: First of all, I have basically three 11 (3) recommendations and I would like to preface these -- 12 my comments with the statement that first of all I'm a 13 health care provider and that in that capacity these 14 recommends will reflect that professional role, so. 15 "The first recommendation is that there 16 be an increase in funding to allow a 17 medic to accompany TRU team on a full 18 time basis. Because of the large 19 geographic Provincial area TRU operates 20 within and the logistical constraints 21 supposes -- or imposes on such a wide 22 range in area. 23 A full time medic would be able to 24 provide a consistent availability of 25 emergent medical resources and


1 expertise to support both operations 2 and training. And that would benefit 3 both the police and the general public. 4 Sometimes we go to very remote areas 5 and I believe that individuals such as 6 myself, properly trained and 7 knowledgeable, can provide a higher 8 level of -- of care. 9 Such a full time individual would also 10 provide liaison with local emergency 11 medical services, emergency rooms, 12 hospitals and clinics. This would 13 allow for both operational medical 14 plans and their integration with 15 identified local resources." 16 And I think that's very important and 17 that's -- that is a recommendation outside of this venue 18 that I have mentioned before. 19 "My second recommendation is that a 20 need has been identified for increased 21 ability to communicate with ambulance 22 personnel and ambulance dispatch during 23 occurrences. This would be preferable 24 by a direct voice communication through 25 a radio system that is able to respect


1 both the police security issues of such 2 a system and the emergency services 3 privacy confidentiality issues." 4 And my understanding is when we were 5 trained on our new radio system, that there's suppose to 6 be that capability within the system now. We've had that 7 system now for three (3) or four (4) years and I 8 routinely ask and that capability is still not available. 9 And lastly, my final recommendation is 10 that, excuse me... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: "My third recommendation is that there 15 is a need to examine the role of 16 psychological debriefing after such 17 incidents and how we as a society or 18 organization deliver these services. 19 Researchers shown repeatedly that 20 immediate peer support, which occurred 21 in this case but -- and proper 22 psychological debriefing services, 23 which did not occur during the time of 24 this incident, both these services 25 benefit both the short and long term


1 psychological health of both the 2 individual and the organization after 3 critical events." 4 Especially in an event like this where you 5 have a large number of officers involved they become 6 impaired somewhere down the line because of the 7 psychological affects of the operation. That can have a 8 serious impact on an organization such as the OPP or a 9 fire department or an EMS service. 10 And along that line: 11 "I believe that we must achieve a 12 greater equity between the needs of the 13 justice system to receive untainted 14 statements and testimony with the needs 15 of the individual. 16 This balance must reflect both the long 17 term needs of our justice system and 18 the respect we traditionally afford to 19 the individual in our society." 20 And those are my three (3) 21 recommendations. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 23 That completes the examination-in-chief and prior to 24 breaking today perhaps we could canvass the parties with 25 respect to cross-examination estimates, please?


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, let's 2 do a canvassing and get an idea of where we are. 3 Yes, Mr. Rosenthal...? 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: An hour and a half, 5 Mr. Commissioner. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Rosenthal, an hour 7 and a half. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 9 Scullion...? 10 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I haven't had a 11 chance to consult with Mr. Rosenthal yet; I'm sure 12 there'll be some overlap but I think thirty (30) to 13 forty-five (45) for me subject to the extent of overlap. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll do 15 that between now and when we come back -- 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Definitely. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to try to 18 minimize -- 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much. 22 Ms. Johnson...? 23 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Forty-five (45) 24 minutes to an hour depending on what My Friends have 25 first.


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Forty-five (45) minutes 2 to an hour -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- for Ms. Johnson. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 6 Mathai...? 7 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Twenty (20) to thirty 8 (30) minutes. Again twenty (20) to thirty (30) minutes-- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I can't hear 10 it so -- 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's twenty (20) to 12 thirty (30) minutes for Mr. Mathai. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 That's fine. It's been repeated. That's fine. 15 I would like to start right now but 16 unfortunately my body says no so we're going to have to 17 take our break now. We've been going for over two (2) 18 hours since our last break. I would need a break right 19 now and when we come back it's too late to start anything 20 now so we're going to adjourn now for the week. 21 Just before we do I've just got a few 22 comments before we conclude for the week that I'd like 23 to make now if you bear with me for a couple of minutes; 24 that's all it is. 25 When -- when we return on June the 5th --


1 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 2 Commissioner, could you move the microphone a little 3 closer, I have a hearing problem. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was just 5 saying before we adjourn I have a few remarks, just very 6 brief. When we return on June the 5th it will be for our 7 final weeks of testimony. 8 Is it okay now? Are you hearing me out 9 there? Yes? 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In my last 12 statement I outlined a timetable for concluding the Part 13 1 evidentiary hearings and I stated then and repeat now 14 that the hearings will conclude no later than June 29th. 15 Written submissions will be due by July 28th and oral 16 submissions will be heard during the week of August 21st. 17 Now, all parties to the Inquiry have now 18 been advised of the process for making a written and if 19 they choose an oral submission. When we know which 20 parties will be making an oral submission the order will 21 be determined, communicated to all parties, and posted on 22 our website. 23 So when we return there'll be a maximum of 24 seventeen (17) Hearing days remaining to June 29th. I'm 25 encouraged by counsels' efforts to concentrate on the


1 most useful and relevant parts of the evidence in their 2 examinations and cross-examinations. 3 I believe we are making the best use of 4 time remaining and I'm urging everyone to continue with 5 this objective in mind. Each remaining day is important 6 and requires our continued cooperation. 7 It's been a long, sometimes challenging 8 process but I'm confident that our final report will be 9 useful and timely. There's no doubt that at the 10 conclusion of this process we'll have a greater 11 understanding of the circumstances and events surrounding 12 the death of Dudley George in September 1995 and as our 13 mandate states we'll be in a position to make 14 constructive recommendations directed to the avoidance of 15 violence in similar circumstances in the future. 16 Thank you very much. See you all on June 17 the 5th. 18 19 (WITNESS RETIRES) 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 22 adjourned until Monday, June the 5th, at 10:00 a.m. 23 24 --- Upon adjourning at 4:57 p.m. 25


1 2 3 4 Certified Correct 5 6 7 8 9 ___________________________ 10 Carol Geehan 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25