11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 25th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 Amanda Rogers ) (np) Student-at-law 16 17 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 18 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 19 Kevin Scullion ) 20 21 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 22 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 23 Colleen Johnson ) 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 5 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 6 7 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 8 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 9 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 10 11 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 12 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 13 Jennifer McAleer ) 14 15 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 16 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 17 18 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 19 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 3 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 4 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 5 Trevor Hinnegan ) 6 7 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 8 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 9 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 10 11 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 12 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 13 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 14 Ian McGilp ) (np) 15 Annie Leeks ) (np) 16 Jennifer Gleitman ) 17 Robyn Trask ) (np) 18 Caroline Swerdlyk ) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 MARK IVON BEAUCHESNE, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 11 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 123 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 160 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Sunil Mathai 187 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 216 11 12 JAMES ANDREW IRVINE, Affirmed 13 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 229 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 352 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1589 "Stan" Thompson drawing, September 20, 4 1995; Exhibit 30 marked by P/C 5 Beauchesne during Kenneth Deane Trial. 72 6 P-1590 Topographical map of Ipperwash Provincial 7 Park marked and signed by Mr. Mark 8 Beauchesne September 25, 1995. 75 9 P-1591 Document Number 1005297. Examination-in 10 -chief, Cross-examination and 11 Re-examination of Mark Beauchesne in R. v. 12 Kenneth Deane (transcript pages 103-172) 13 April 10, 1997. 91 14 P-1592 Document Number 3000846. Examination-in- 15 chief, Cross-examination 16 and Re-examination of Mark Beauchesne 17 in R. v Nicholas Abraham Cottrelle 18 (transcript pages 99-1160 March 25, 1997. 93 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
91 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1593 Document Numbers 1004975 and 1004976. 4 Examination-in-chief of Mark Beauchesne 5 R. v Warren Anthony George and David 6 Abraham George (transcript pages 249-260) 7 October 02, 1997; Cross-examination and Re- 8 examination of Mark Beauchesne, R. v. Warren 9 Anthony George and David Abraham George, 10 (transcript pages 1-16) October 03, 1997. 94 11 P-1594 Document Number 1004634. OPP Anticipated 12 Evidence of Mark Beauchesne, September 08, 13 1995. 105 14 P-1595 Document number 2005533. Resume of James 15 Andrew Irvine. 229 16 P-1596 Handwritten notebook entries of Sgt. James 17 Irvine, May 25-26 1993, August 23-24 1993, 18 March 29 1994, May 06 1994, September 11-16 19 1997. 236 20 P-1597 Document Number 2005606. Handwritten 21 notebook entries of Sgt. James Irvine, 22 February 25-27 1995. 243 23 P-1598 Document Number 2005419. Handwritten 24 notebook entries of James Irvine, 25 September 03-06 1995 250
101 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1599 Document Number 1000500. Handwritten 4 notebook entries of James Irvine, 5 September 06 1995. 253 6 P-1600 Topographical map of Ipperwash Provincial 7 Park marked and signed by Mr. James Irvine 8 September 27, 1995. 312 9 P-1601 Document Number 2005582. Handwritten 10 notebook entries of James Irvine, 11 September 06-21, 1995 323 12 P-1602 Document Number 1000333. Typed and 13 handwritten OPP statement of James 14 Irvine, interviewed by R. Donaldson, 15 September 09, 1995. 329 16 P-1603 Document Number 1000334. SIU, audio/ 17 video statement of Constable James 18 Irvine, December 19, 1995 331 19 P-1604 Document Number 1004702. Statement of 20 James Irvine to SIU, February 24 1998. 332 21 P-1605 Document Number 2005326. Affidavit of 22 James A. Irvine, sworn August 04, 1998. 335 23 P-1606 Pin with Kenneth Deane's OPP identification 24 number and TRU symbol on the pin. 345 25
111 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. Good morning. 10 11 MARK IVON BEAUCHESNE, Resumed 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 14 Q: Good morning, Constable Beauchesne. 15 A: Good morning. 16 Q: If you could turn to Tab 5 of the 17 book of documents in front of you. And these are your 18 notes, Exhibit P-1587. And turn to the entries for 19 September the 6th. And that's the -- September the 6th 20 is the second page in at Tab 5. 21 Now you can use either the notes at -- the 22 photocopy of your notes or your original notes whichever 23 is easiest for you. And I understand from your notes 24 that the -- when did you go on-duty on September the 6th? 25 A: 7:00 a.m.
121 Q: And you went off-duty? 2 A: At eight o'clock the next morning. 3 Q: On September the 7th? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And when you were on-duty during the 6 bulk of the day, you were on -- as the notes indicate on 7 standby as IAP with respect to Ipperwash Provincial Park? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And IAP again, is Immediate Action 10 Plan? 11 A: Yeah. Probably more correct would be 12 as part of the IA, Immediate Action Team but -- 13 Q: Immediate Action? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Now we've heard that IAP before so 16 that -- and you were on standby until 20:15; is that 17 correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And during the day did you attend at 20 the sandy parking lot outside of Ipperwash Provincial 21 Park on September the 6th? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: Did you attend down in the area of 24 East Parkway Drive or Army Camp Road on September the 25 6th?
131 A: No. 2 Q: Did you attend at the MNR parking lot 3 on September the 6th before you were called out? 4 A: Otherwise known as the TOC Centre? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: No, sir. 7 Q: And do you know of any of the other 8 members of the TRU team attended down at the sandy 9 parking lot or in the area of East Parkway and Army Camp 10 Road prior to the callout? 11 A: Not that I'm aware of, sir. 12 Q: And can you tell us when you were 13 called out? 14 A: We were called out -- I was activated 15 at about 8:15 or -- 16 Q: 8 -- 17 A: -- 20:15 hours, I mean. 18 Q: 8:15. And I note that on the left- 19 hand side of your notes it says: 20 "Completed 07 Sept '95 p.m." 21 Do you see that? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And what does that signify? 24 A: From the 20:15 entry or 8:15 p.m. 25 entry I did not complete all the notes following for that
141 night until the next evening. 2 Q: And today what recollection do you 3 have, independent recollection, of the events of the 4 evening of September the 6th? 5 Can you tell us the story without a 6 reference to your notes or do you need your notes? 7 A: I could -- I could give broad brush 8 details of -- of the story, I've refreshed my memory with 9 my notes and other transcripts. 10 Q: So before coming today you've looked 11 at your notes and you've looked at your other transcripts 12 and you've refreshed your memory? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Do you have any indep -- apart from 15 you notes and refreshing your memory what -- do you have 16 any independent recollection of the events without -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- refreshing your memory did you 19 remember anything or much? 20 A: It would depend on what's asked and 21 what comes to mind at the time, sir. 22 Q: Okay. And if you could just -- when 23 you were activated at 20:15 what were you told? 24 A: Initially I returned to the staging 25 area and was advised that there had been a car damaged
151 down at Army Camp Road and I believe East Parkway area, 2 near the Park basically. And -- 3 Q: And do you recall who told you that? 4 A: No, I don't. 5 Q: And there's -- what did you do? I see 6 a note you were requested to report to Forest; is that 7 correct? 8 A: Yes, sir. Yeah. So we would have 9 jumped in our vehicles and started making our way towards 10 Forest Detachment. 11 Q: And I note you've -- there's a note: 12 "Prepared equipment. Kit up HK-33 with 13 night vision." 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And that is the -- when you kitted up 16 what uniform did you put on? 17 A: I -- it would be out containment 18 system of the day which was -- consisted of a green 19 uniform, body armour in a green carrier, load bearing 20 equipment and the weaponry and likely a booney hat of 21 some sort. 22 Q: Pardon me? 23 A: A booney hat, like a floppy hat. 24 Q: Okay. And then you've got a 25 reference to HK-33 with night vision and that was your
161 long rifle -- your rifle? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And the -- then what happened? 4 A: Well, we were heading out and while 5 we were en route I received or we received information 6 from Constable Zupancic that -- just an update on the 7 occurrence, that there might be a clash between two (2) 8 Native groups over the handling of the Park, and further 9 that there was some information on weaponry that might be 10 involved, AK-47 type weapons, hunting rifles with scopes, 11 and potentially Molotov cocktails in possession of the 12 Natives. 13 Q: And then this was while you were en 14 route to Forest? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And I note it says: 17 "Requested to report to Forest." 18 Then on this -- on the September the 6th 19 there were ten (10) members of the TRU team down at -- 20 involved in the Ipperwash Provincial Park; is that not 21 correct? 22 A: I believe that was the number we had, 23 yes. 24 Q: You had -- the team leader was...? 25 A: Acting Staff Sergeant Kent Skinner.
171 Q: And then the assistant team leader 2 was still Kenneth Deane? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And then there was Constable 5 Zupancic. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then yourself. 8 A: Constable Klym. 9 Q: Constable Klym. 10 A: Constable O'Halloran. 11 Q: Constable Strickler, Constable 12 McCormick and Constable Kamerman. I think we've got them 13 all. 14 A: And Constable Irvine. 15 Q: And Constable Irvine. And the 16 information that you received from -- were you in the 17 same vehicle with Constable Zupancic? 18 A: I'm not sure. 19 Q: And the information that -- the 20 information that he told you about is -- have you 21 recorded all the information in -- 22 A: As far as my recollection is 23 concerned, yeah and it's basically the gist of what we 24 got at that time. 25 Q: And then there's a note with respect
181 to -- can you just tell us again, what if anything did he 2 say about weapons. 3 A: The -- the information that he passed 4 along to us was that there were potentially AK-47 type 5 weapons, hunting rifles with scopes and Molotov cocktails 6 in possession of the Natives. 7 Q: And what, if anything, did that 8 information mean to you? What did you take from it? 9 A: Our mandate is high risk occurrences 10 and -- and the involvement -- or intelligence that 11 indicates these weapons might be present or coming, in my 12 mind just confirms that TRU needed to be deployed at that 13 time. 14 Q: Okay. And then what happened? 15 You're on your way, you get this information from 16 Constable Zupancic and then what happened? 17 A: We returned to Pinery. 18 Q: And do you recall where you were 19 stopped along the way? 20 A: No, sir, not exactly. 21 Q: And what did you do? 22 A: We transferred into plain vehicles, I 23 believe at the request of the C/P. 24 Q: And the C/P is the Command Post? 25 A: Command Post, yes, sir.
191 Q: Yes. 2 A: And from there we then proceeded in 3 our plain vehicles to drak -- Ravenswood and down to the 4 TOC site on East Parkway. 5 Q: And the -- when you went to the TOC 6 site on East Parkway via Ravenswood, did you -- do you 7 recall, did you drive by the Army Camp on Highway 21? 8 A: From what I can recall I believe we 9 avoided that. 10 Q: Okay. And when you were -- when you 11 first proceeded -- when you first left the Pinery Park, 12 what types of vehicles were you in? 13 A: I -- again, we would have probably 14 had our trucks, our big equipment trucks that are marked 15 with 'Police' and those would have been the mix -- in the 16 mix with our plain vehicles, so. 17 Q: And do you recall whether you went by 18 the Army Camp in your trucks before you were told to 19 return to the Pinery? 20 A: No, I don't believe so, no. 21 Q: You don't believe you did? 22 A: No, I don't. 23 Q: Then when you got to the TOC site and 24 Parkway Drive, what happened? 25 A: I received some information or a
201 briefing at some point. I don't recall if it was 2 immediately but that the Crowd Management Unit was going 3 to be formed up and used to secure the public roadway. 4 And that -- 5 Q: And by the public roadway, did you -- 6 what roadway did you understand that to refer to? 7 A: I assumed it to be the paved portion 8 of Army Camp Road and East Parkway. 9 Q: Okay. And anything else? 10 A: And that TRU would be used to assist 11 them by providing security for them. 12 Q: And in the photocopy of your notes, 13 there's some -- and this is on page 7 of your notes, 14 there's -- it appears to be some handwriting in the right 15 hand side. 16 Do you see that? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: Is that in your -- your notes? 19 A: No, sir. That's right off the page. 20 Q: Do you know what that is? Is that 21 your handwriting? 22 A: I don't believe it is, sir. 23 Q: Yeah. And do you know what it says? 24 Can you -- 25 A: No, I can't make it out clearly.
211 Q: So if I could ask you to turn to Tab 2 6 and go to the fourth page in. It's your page 89, which 3 is upside down on the top of the page. Do you see that, 4 sir? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And at the bottom of the page there's 7 an entry, September 6th. 8 A: Hmm hmm. Yes, sir. 9 Q: And there's some information, there's 10 a na -- a name Vic Hor -- 11 A: Horzempa. 12 Q: Horzempa. And what does this 13 information refer to you -- and when were -- did you 14 receive it, and from whom? 15 A: Now, this is -- I am not sure when I 16 received this information. This may have been added on 17 and actually written on the 6th of September. 18 At a certain point I received this. It 19 looks like just an update on what had occurred overnight. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: I couldn't tell you where I received 22 it, unless it's in the body of the notes. 23 "The number 2 District ERT member, Vic 24 Horzempa, reports sounds of 25 approximately thirty (30) rounds of
221 fully automatic weapons fire in several 2 bursts. Heard approximately 02:00 3 hours from the beach area of Ipperwash 4 base. Natives regular -- regularly 5 patrolling in the 'bat mobile'." 6 Q: And you've got that in quotes? 7 A: Yeah, I think just as a -- it's 8 obviously a name for it or a pet name that they had given 9 to a vehicle -- 10 Q: Did you know what vehicle was 11 referred to by the bat mobile? 12 A: I came to know it later on. I 13 believe it -- it had big fins to it but -- 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: -- my recollection -- recollection is 16 sketchy today, so. 17 "They were patrolling in this vehicle 18 with a spotlight. There was a bonfire. 19 And in the morning the Natives blocked 20 the entrance to the beach at the north 21 end of Army Camp Road with picnic 22 tables. [and then] Further updates. 23 ERT arrived to break up the barricades 24 to the public road and repelled it with 25 stones, and damage to vehicles.
231 They departed; barricades went back up. 2 Later ERT returned and the suspects 3 fled. Barricades down at present. 4 Apparently awaiting results of 5 negotiations and injunction prior to 6 action onto Base." 7 Q: And what does that refer to, the last 8 entry, "prior to action onto Base"? 9 A: Well, at this time, just reading it 10 now, it doesn't really make any sense, because I don't 11 think there were any plans to -- to do anything with the 12 Base, so it might have been a mis -- misidentified in my 13 notes or in my mind -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: I'm assuming it refers to the Park. 16 Q: And were there plans at this time, to 17 your knowledge, to enter the Park and remove the 18 protesters from the Park? 19 A: Not at this time, no. 20 Q: And the reference to an injunction, 21 what information, if any, have you been given about an 22 injunction? 23 A: That it was being worked on. 24 Q: And did you know what type of 25 injunction was being worked on? Do you know anything
241 about -- 2 A: I don't know what -- very much about 3 injunctions, sir, no. 4 Q: And were you told when -- on the 5 evening of September the 6th, you told us that, and it's 6 in your notes that you had information that there were 7 two (2) Native groups that might clash. And then back at 8 Tab 5 now, Exhibit P-1587 -- I mean tab -- yeah, Tab 5. 9 Were you told anything about a car being 10 damaged on the evening of September the 6th? 11 A: Yeah, I think the original 12 information I received at 8:15, 20:15, it speaks to it 13 right away. 14 "Activated re. private citizen's car 15 damaged on Army Camp Road near 16 Ipperwash Provincial Park." 17 Q: And were you provided with any other 18 information that you can recall today? 19 A: Not that I can recall today. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: At a certain -- I'm sorry. At a 22 certain point, and I don't -- I couldn't tell you exactly 23 when, I became aware that this car was owned by a Native 24 person from, I believe it was, Kettle Point. 25 Q: And was that before or after you were
251 deployed down East Parkway Drive? 2 A: I could -- I couldn't say, sir. 3 Q: Then if you go back to your notes, 4 page 7 at the bottom of your notes. The -- do you recall 5 who briefed you with respect to the Crowd Management 6 Unit? 7 I think you said you couldn't, but was it 8 Kent Skinner or John Carson or Wade Lacroix? 9 A: I recall Kent Skinner passing some 10 information on to us but I, you know, at -- he would have 11 been the normal channel for our information at that 12 point. 13 Q: Do you have any independent 14 recollection of the -- 15 A: Independently I remember -- I do 16 recall him speaking to us at some point. I'm assuming it 17 would be for a briefing. 18 Q: And then your job was, you've 19 indicated, the TRU team was to provide cover against 20 firearms, then there's a reference... 21 "Two (2) Sierra teams." 22 ...in your notes? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And what was that about? 25 A: Sierra teams are, again a
261 designation, a couple of members in each team -- sniper 2 observer teams, and the pairings are given there; Irvine 3 and Strickler and McCormack and Kamerman. 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: And that they were deployed to 6 observe the intersection and the Park area. 7 Q: And the Sierra teams, the two (2) 8 Sierra teams, did they go first or did they go at the 9 same time as you went down? 10 A: They went before us. 11 Q: And do you recall today how they were 12 deployed down the road? 13 A: As far as I know they were taken up 14 partway in a vehicle. 15 Q: And was that vehicle -- do you know 16 who was -- who drove that vehicle? 17 A: I believe it would have been Acting 18 Sergeant Deane is the information -- 19 Q: And -- 20 A: -- I know today. But -- 21 Q: That's the information you know 22 today. 23 And what was the colour of this vehicle? 24 A: Well, again it's a ways back. I -- I 25 believe it was a white Suburban.
271 Q: And I think you -- you have in your 2 notes that the -- you'll see towards the bottom that it - 3 - there was -- you were deployed in a white -- it appears 4 to be sub -- 5 A: That's helpful, yes, sir. 6 Q: -- car and so that the -- was it the 7 same car that you were deployed in that Kenneth Deane 8 took the Sierra teams down? 9 A: I would assume. 10 Q: And why were you using a white car at 11 night? Do you know why the white car was being used or 12 white Suburban? 13 A: I -- we have a few vehicles 14 available, I -- I don't know why that one in particular 15 was selected. 16 Q: Okay. In any event the two (2) 17 Sierra teams went out and then what happened? 18 A: Well, then shortly afterwards Alpha 19 Team deployed and I was a member of that Alpha team. 20 Q: And you've got a note: 21 "Self with Klym, Deane, and O'Halloran 22 as Alpha." 23 And what was your role to be? 24 A: We were to go out in advance of the 25 Crowd Management Unit; be a set of eyes in advance of
281 them and just scope out the area; and ultimately as they 2 moved up provide some security against any potential 3 threats of firearms. 4 Q: And so that as between the Sierra 5 teams and the Alpha teams, can you tell us what -- on the 6 evening of September the 6th, what was your understanding 7 of the distinction in the roles between the two (2) 8 teams? 9 A: Sierra would have -- was pre- 10 deployed, ideally to establish and observation point or 11 observation points well in advance and to make 12 observations and report observations of activities back. 13 The Alpha team was a more mobile unit. We 14 were to pre-deploy and move, basically walk the ground 15 ahead of the Crowd Management Unit, assess the area and 16 then once the Crowd Management Unit caught up to us we 17 were going to provide them security as they moved in to 18 do their job. 19 Q: And how -- do you recall today and I 20 know there's no note in your -- in notes about this, but 21 how far ahead of you did the Sierra teams go up? 22 Do you have any recollection today? 23 A: It went immediately but I really 24 don't -- I can't say -- 25 Q: And --
291 A: -- exactly time spent wise how far. 2 Q: -- were you told, you personally, or 3 the group told by anyone that John Carson had said at 4 approximately ten (10) to 9:00 on the evening of 5 September the 6th: 6 "We are using TRU to go in and get an 7 eye. If they are just having a 8 campfire, let's leave them. Why go in 9 the dark?" 10 Did anyone tell you that John Carson had 11 said that? 12 A: I don't recall hearing that, no, sir. 13 Q: And did you know who John Carson was? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And he was the Incident Commander? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And did anyone tell you that the CMU 18 was being deployed as a diversion to permit the Sierra 19 teams to get into place? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: So the Sierra teams go out, the four 22 (4) officers, and then you and Kenneth Deane and 23 Constables O'Halloran and Klym were deployed. 24 And your partner that evening was 25 Constable Klym?
301 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what happened? You were deployed 3 -- how were you -- tell us how you were deployed and what 4 you did. 5 A: We were taking a leg up the road in - 6 - in a vehicle and we exited the vehicle. 7 Q: And so that -- who drove the vehicle 8 up this time? 9 A: I -- I can't say for sure who would 10 have driven. I -- I know it wasn't me. It would make 11 sense that if Acting Sergeant Deane had driven up before, 12 he probably drove us, but again, I'm speculating. 13 Q: But one of the questions I had to 14 myself was if he drove, what did he do with the vehicle? 15 Did he just leave it there? 16 A: Again, that's a good question. 17 Whether we had a driver that took it back; it make sense 18 that there was an additional person. But -- 19 Q: And in relation to the intersection 20 of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road, where did you 21 get off this truck? I take it it was a suburban? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: Yeah. Where did you -- 24 A: I -- I've noted it -- about 300 25 metres from the intersection of Army Camp Road and East
311 Parkway Drive. 2 Q: And you've got "south of Park". 3 You're using the Park in this case as north? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And so it was about 300 metres either 6 south if we use the lake as north, west of the 7 intersection that you -- 8 A: Yes. Yeah. 9 Q: And the -- could you -- when you got 10 out of the car -- out of the truck, were you close to -- 11 could you see the intersection? 12 A: No, not at that time I don't believe. 13 Q: And the -- were you by -- can you 14 recall today where you -- by a field or farther down the 15 road? 16 A: I couldn't tell you. 17 Q: Okay. Then what happened? 18 A: We split to some extent. Myself and 19 Constable Klym moved to the -- I guess we're referring to 20 that as the south side of East Parkway, and -- 21 Q: If you -- if the lake is north then 22 you were on -- 23 A: If the lake is the north. 24 Q: -- you were on the Highway 21 side? 25 A: Yes, sir.
321 Q: Yes? 2 A: And Deane and O'Halloran took the 3 north side and fairly shortly after arriving there, I 4 made an observation through my night vision scope of -- 5 of some persons moving on the road toward us. 6 Q: Okay. And your -- your -- you had 7 night vision goggles or you said a night vision scope. 8 Was that what you used for -- as night vision was a tele 9 -- a scope on your -- where was the scope? 10 A: Yeah. The -- the scope is -- is an 11 optic and it can -- it's actually mounted to the rifle. 12 It's got night vision capabilities and it does have a 13 point of aim, so you can use it as a weapon scope as 14 well. 15 Q: And what communications equipment did 16 you and the other members of the Alpha team have that 17 evening? 18 A: Radios and headsets. 19 Q: And with whom could you communicate? 20 A: We deploy normally on our own net, 21 our own frequency, so I could communicate with fellow TRU 22 team members and back to the TOC and C/P area depending 23 on whose got the radios with them. 24 Q: And could you communicate with the 25 Sierra team?
331 A: Yes. 2 Q: So that all of the TRU members were 3 on the same frequency, they could talk to each other and 4 to the TRU team TOC? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And could you hear or talk to the 7 CMU? 8 A: Not directly, no. I believe there 9 was a radio link provided -- a TRU team radio provided to 10 the CMU but that's -- 11 Q: But that would be through -- 12 A: I would normally go through the TOC 13 and have them pass information. 14 Q: Okay. So you indicate that with your 15 night vision, you observed: 16 "Two (2) male Natives on east side of 17 road move south towards us." 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And so that these individuals were on 20 the Highway 21 side of East Parkway Drive? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Then what happened? 23 A: Well, I made some observations. They 24 were -- one (1) had a floppy-brimmed hat with a possible 25 ponytail. He appeared to be carrying something. I've
341 noted it didn't appear to be a firearm. 2 Their movement was continued south, or 3 west I guess by our -- our standards here today, towards 4 us within 30 or 40 metres of us. They were using the 5 bush and the trees at the side of the road for 6 concealment and at one (1) point they stopped and 7 squatted for a few minutes. 8 Q: And the -- it was your observation, 9 it was an observation made by you that they were using 10 the trees and the bush for -- 11 A: Concealment or cover. 12 Q: -- conceal -- 13 A: They were carefully moving up toward 14 us and my assessment is they were out scouting. 15 Q: Okay. Then these individuals 16 stopped. Then what happened? 17 A: And then at a certain point they -- 18 they got up and they just moved back towards the Park 19 area. And made observation they were last seen going 20 west, which would be north by today's standards, towards 21 the lake at Army Camp Road. 22 Q: And so the -- and you've got: 23 "West side of sign noting the curve?" 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And what's that refer to?
351 A: There's a sign at the end of East 2 Parkway or was a sign there that indicated a turn onto 3 Army Camp Road towards 21 Highway. It was just 4 indicating that the paved portion moves from East Parkway 5 and -- and goes south. 6 Q: So these two (2) individuals, you saw 7 them, they squatted, then they got up and moved back 8 towards the intersection? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And then -- then what happened? 11 A: Shortly afterwards I -- I made 12 another observation that another -- one (1) of them had 13 come out, I believe it was the man in the floppy hat, and 14 moved near the sign at -- at the end of the road. And in 15 my initial assessment of him I -- I had a concern that he 16 might be carrying a firearm. 17 He was carrying something in his -- in his 18 hands that looked -- that was long, had a -- it looked 19 like it could be a long gun. 20 Q: And what did you do when you observed 21 this individual? 22 A: I communicated that so that it would 23 get out to the -- the other members out there. 24 Q: And how did you communicate it? 25 A: Well, I'd have to step back. I
361 believe in the initial assessment of the first two (2) 2 males somebody, probably Officer Klym, but somebody 3 identified that my transmissions were either not readable 4 or very poor so I had crossed the road and -- and went 5 directly with Acting Sergeant Deane for some of the 6 communications involving the two (2) males moving up the 7 road. 8 At a certain point I moved -- I moved back 9 to the same side as Officer Klym. And again carrying 10 that through here with the -- the man that I thought 11 might have a long gun I crossed the road and went face to 12 face with Acting Sergeant Deane and communicated that and 13 it was communicated out; communicated that there was 14 potentially a man down the road with a gun. 15 Q: And so that someone had advised you 16 that your radio wasn't transmitting out although you 17 could hear the transmissions in? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the -- so you told -- across the 20 road -- at this point in time you're on one (1) side of 21 the road and Kenneth Deane's on the other side? 22 A: At the outset, yes, we were on 23 opposite sides of the road and then to aid in 24 communication and since he would be the -- the team 25 member in charge of the Alpha team, the ranking member
371 there on ground, I -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- felt it was prudent to cross the 4 road and communicate directly with him as I had really 5 the only observation tool that was really picking up 6 anything on the road early on. 7 Q: And was anyone else that evening in - 8 - in the Alpha Team, the four (4) members of the Alpha 9 Team, were -- were any of the other members equipped with 10 night vision? 11 A: I don't believe so, sir. 12 Q: And so you went across the road and 13 told Kenneth Deane about your observation of the man with 14 the long object. Then what did you do? 15 A: Once that information was passed out 16 I -- I moved forward to conduct further assessments. 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: And at a certain I, in looking at it, 19 I determined that it couldn't be a firearm. I believe it 20 was because it had a -- it had a bend to the shiny 21 portion. A barrel of a gun wouldn't have, obviously, a 22 bend to it. So I determined it wasn't a firearm. 23 Q: And you've made a note at the bottom 24 of page 8: 25 "Appears to be a stick or an unstrung
381 bow". 2 A: Yeah, and that's what I've written 3 there, but I -- I do recall a shine to the object, so 4 obviously it probably wouldn't have been a stick. 5 Unstrung -- something that has a shine to 6 it, either metallic or plastic, and it was very long; 5 7 feet long. 8 Q: Okay. And so when you made the 9 observation that it was not a firearm, but appeared to be 10 a stick or an unstrung bow, what did you then do? 11 A: That would have been communicated out 12 and I returned to the south side of the road with 13 Constable Klym and the Crowd Management Unit started 14 moving up and -- that line next to us. 15 Q: Okay. So that you -- when you say 16 you communicated that out, you went across the road and 17 spoke to Kenneth Deane again? 18 A: When I moved up further to make the 19 assessment, I don't know if -- I really can't recall if 20 Ken Deane went with me or if I've -- went up 21 independently and then folded back and advised him what I 22 saw. 23 I believe that's how the exchange went. 24 And then once it was determined it wasn't a firearm, then 25 I crossed the road and linked up with Constable Klym.
391 Q: I see. So that when you first went 2 across the road and spoke to acting Sergeant Kenneth 3 Deane, you stayed on that side of the road, moved forward 4 to make the -- another observation and then moved back? 5 A: Yeah. I -- I moved up at some point 6 and whether the whole Alpha team did or not, I really 7 can't recall. 8 Q: And then at Tab 10, there's a copy of 9 P-476, and these are copies of -- it's Inquiry Document 10 1005653 and it's the notes of Constable Zupancic. 11 Have you had the opportunity to look at 12 these notes before today? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: And these notes are Constable 15 Zupancic's notes of the communications between the Alpha 16 and Sierra teams and the TOC and the -- at the first 17 entry, there's an entry: 18 "Farmer or Spud." 19 And I understand that Farmer was the name 20 for Constable Klym; is that correct? 21 A: No. That would have been the 22 nickname that we used for Dave Strickler. 23 Q: For Strickler? 24 A: Constable Strickler. 25
401 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And -- and Spud was...? 4 A: Constable Irvine. 5 Q: And then Strickler -- Strickler and 6 Irvine were one of the Sierra teams? 7 A: Sierra 1, I believe. 8 Q: Okay. And then there's an entry on 9 the second page: 10 "22:30. Tex to TAC 2: 11 .5 kilometres up. TAC 2, two (2) males 12 walking towards CMU. Alpha will subdue 13 if required. 14 Tex to TAC 2: 15 .75 metres. Stop looking towards 16 [something] location. No long guns but 17 may have portable radios." 18 Do you recall this -- these exchanges? 19 A: Yes, I -- generally, yes, I do. 20 Q: And the two (2) males are the two (2) 21 males that you refer to -- told us about just a few 22 moments ago? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And the .5 kilometres, I take it -- 25 what does that signify to you; that you're .5 kilometres
411 out or do you know? 2 A: These are another officer's notes but 3 it looks to me like -- that .5 kilometres, so that's... 4 Q: Okay. And then there's a reference: 5 "Alpha to TAC: Two (2) forward 6 observers have spotted CMU and are 7 running back to Park. Carson and CMU 8 advised." 9 Did you hear the -- the transmission that 10 -- about the two (2) individuals going back to the Park? 11 A: Likely I would have heard it, sir. 12 Q: And that's the information you just 13 provided us that you saw them going back to the Park? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: And then there's a -- a reference: 16 "22:39. Alpha Beau. Subject back on 17 roadway observing gun." 18 And -- Excuse me. 19 KAREN JONES: Observing CMU. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: "observing CMU." 23 Excuse me. 24 "Subject back on roadway observing 25 CMU."
421 And that appears to be having identified 2 you? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Do you recall making that sub -- 5 communication? 6 A: No. But he's noted my name and -- 7 and as I mentioned earlier, my comms may have been 8 partial. I may have got onto them and tried them out of 9 habit or -- or it's -- or Constable Zupancic has put my 10 name down. It's hard to say why that's listed with my 11 name. There's a couple of possibilities there anyway. 12 Q: And then there's a -- on the next 13 page: 14 "22:44. CMU advancing from Tex. 15 Subject has a weapon. Appeared to be a 16 rifle or bow." 17 And is that the information that you 18 provided? 19 A: No. That -- well, "Subject has a 20 weapon. Appeared to be a rifle or bow.", it doesn't 21 really make any sense to me that -- I can't recall 22 communicating that out, so. 23 Q: Okay. And then the -- there's a 24 transmission at 10:52: 25 "S2 and Alpha can cover CMU. CMU
431 advised by Skinner." 2 Do you recall hearing that transmission? 3 A: I -- I really couldn't speak to every 4 transmission, sir. 5 Q: So once you communicate that the 6 person on the road had a -- only a stick and you 7 communicated that back to Kenneth Deane who communicated 8 it to TOC, then what happened? 9 And you're now referring to page 9 of your 10 notes. 11 A: Yes, sir. The CMU caught up to us 12 and myself and Constable Klym fell in on the right flank 13 or south flank of them. And as they moved up, we -- the 14 sandy parking area and Park opened up in view and we 15 could see people there gathered around. 16 Q: And when -- as you -- when you fell 17 in with the CMU, you were on the right flank on the 18 Highway 21 side of the -- of the road? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And do you recall what formation the 21 CMU was in when you -- at this point? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: And so that -- were you ahead of the 24 CMU or even with the front row of the CMU or behind? 25 What was your location in --
441 A: It would have been -- to maintain my 2 observation and -- and my responsibilities I -- I didn't 3 really let the CMU move up in front of me. I maintained 4 the flank, so give or take, slightly ahead, just 5 slightly behind but enough that I could see ahead. 6 Q: And your role at this time was to 7 observe what was going on ahead of the CMU? 8 A: And just trying to make my 9 observations and -- and be as open as possible. 10 Q: Okay. Then you indicate that you 11 could see some individuals and the -- where were these 12 people? 13 A: Walking around in the sandy parking 14 area. The -- the north I guess -- I've got it in my 15 notes, "the west extension of Army Camp Road". And what 16 we're referring to as the lake side, outside of the Park 17 fence, the Park boundary fence. 18 Q: And how many people and what, if 19 anything, were they carrying? 20 A: Sticks, baseball bats, et cetera. 21 And I've noted about a half a dozen outside of the fence. 22 Q: Okay. And then what else did you 23 observe? 24 A: My initial impression when I went 25 around the corner was that we were illuminated right away
451 with -- with spotlights or headlights. I identified an 2 ATV vehicles. That was sort of my initial impression as - 3 - as we came into view of them. 4 And then I've noted: 5 "A large fire burning inside the Park 6 fence; motor vehicles -- at least two 7 (2) motor vehicles; a bus and an 8 automobile and at least one (1) ATV. 9 The Natives were using vehicle lights 10 and hand-held spotlights to illuminate 11 the CMU. There were thirty (30) to 12 forty (40) Native males in and around 13 the area. Many were carrying clubs and 14 sticks and other items." 15 Q: And were these people on the -- 16 you've told us about the six (6) people you saw when you 17 -- when you say you turned the corner are you referring 18 to leaving the paved part of East Parkway at the corner 19 of where it meets Army Camp Road and going into the sandy 20 parking lot? 21 A: Not then there. I think -- what I'm 22 referring to is as -- as you come towards the end of the 23 road and there is -- there's a bank off to the left where 24 houses would be and as that starts opening up to your 25 view that this is -- your view opens up to the parking
461 area and -- and the fence boundary. 2 Q: And that's what you -- 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: -- when you -- okay. And the thirty 5 (30) to forty (40) males that -- or the thirty (30) to 6 forty (40) individuals -- males that you've described 7 were inside the Park? 8 A: In and around the area. That's 9 obviously a ballpark figure that I've given and I'm 10 obviously probably including the -- the half a dozen or 11 so that I initially saw outside of the fence. 12 Q: Then what happened? 13 A: The next notation is the CMU advanced 14 to the fence line. Prior to that I believe they did hold 15 at the edge of the road momentarily, either to change 16 formations or to do something. 17 But at any rate, the CMU did an advance to 18 the fence line and stopped prior to the fence. And all 19 of the persons that were in the Park area or in the sandy 20 parking lot area had moved back in behind the fence into 21 the Park. 22 Q: And when the CMU moved into the sandy 23 parking lot and moved up towards fence area -- and that's 24 the fence of the Provincial Park? 25 A: Yes, sir.
471 Q: Where did you go? 2 A: I went up on top of a dune, a grassy 3 dune, and there was a hydro pole there as a reference 4 point, a pole. 5 Q: And where was Constable Klym? 6 A: He would have been nearby me. 7 Q: And just so that I understand it, 8 when you deployed with Constable Klym as your partner was 9 the idea that you would stay together and work together? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And did you stay together up to this 12 point other than when you crossed the road as you've told 13 us? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did Constable Klym -- where was 16 Constable Klym when you went up on the sandy bank? 17 A: I would assume within a reasonable 18 distance of me to provide mutual observation and support. 19 Q: So you both went up there? 20 A: But I couldn't place him exactly. 21 Q: Okay. And -- but he was near? 22 A: Nearby, yes, sir. 23 Q: All right. Then what happened? 24 A: As the CMU held at the fence line the 25 people in the Park, the Natives, started yelling insults
481 at them. They were what I would describe as war cries. 2 Q: And what do you mean by that? 3 A: Independently now it alludes me but 4 it -- it made sense to me at the time to note it that 5 way. I'm -- I'm assuming something like out of a TV cry 6 that you'd see in a western, I'm assuming a war cry, a 7 yell, a scream. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Racial taunts; given one (1) as an 10 example. 11 Q: And that was, Whites go back to 12 England? 13 A: Yes, and stuff along that line. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: And they began to throw objects at 16 the CMU, burning sticks and other objects. They were 17 taking some hits there so at a certain point the -- the 18 CMU backed up away from all that activity to the -- stand 19 on the paved portion of Army Camp Road. 20 Q: And that's the paved portion that's 21 at the intersection of where East Parkway Drive turns 22 into Army Camp Road? 23 A: Yes, sir, at the curve there. 24 Q: At the curve. And at the -- does 25 this point, you're -- where are you?
491 A: I would have been mirroring their 2 movements, so I believe I fell back to the edge of the 3 road as well. 4 Q: From the hydro pole? 5 A: From the pole, yes. 6 Q: And then what happened? 7 A: We were continuing to get objects 8 thrown at us and a fair amount of stuff thrown, yelling 9 and at a certain point the Crowd Management Unit made a 10 rapid advance -- 11 Q: And -- 12 A: -- and went back to the Park fence 13 line. 14 Q: All right. And I see in your notes 15 at page 10, that it: 16 "The unit backed up to stand on the 17 paved Army Camp Road. We did as well. 18 Objects were still being thrown at us 19 and fifteen (15) or so Natives came out 20 of the Park carrying sticks and 21 clubs..." 22 And you've got in your note: 23 "...to confront the CMU". 24 A: Yes, sir. Sorry, I skipped over that 25 part.
501 Q: "Throwing --" 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: "-- things and yelling taunts." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: So what's that refer to? 6 A: When the CMU backed up -- I'm sorry. 7 When the CMU backed up after that first move to the 8 fence, fifteen (15) or so of the Natives came out and 9 they were armed and they were adopting an aggressive 10 posture and they were yelling taunts and -- and throwing 11 things. 12 Q: And the -- you note: 13 "No -- no police replies. The Natives 14 [something]" 15 Can you tell -- what -- what are you -- 16 what happened at this point? 17 A: "The Natives moved to the edge of the 18 pavement and the CMU rapidly advanced 19 to the Park fence, overrunning several 20 Natives. Many Natives stood to fight 21 with clubs and [whatever]." 22 But I've noted clubs. 23 "One (1) Native was taken into custody 24 and the rest retreated behind the 25 fence."
511 Q: Okay. Then at this point in time, 2 when the CMU advanced into the Park -- excuse me, when 3 the CMU advanced into the sandy parking lot, where did 4 you go? 5 A: I believe I returned to the -- the 6 top of the -- the little hill that I was on for 7 observation -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- previously. 10 Q: And then the person that -- the CMU 11 advances forward, did they advance as a unit? 12 A: Yes. The line moved forward all 13 together. 14 Q: And the -- you indicate in your notes 15 that: 16 "They overran several Natives. 17 [Something] -- Natives stood to fight 18 with clubs. One (1) Native was taken 19 into custody and the rest retreated 20 behind the fence." 21 The person who was taken into custody, did 22 you see the person being taken into custody in the sandy 23 parking lot? 24 A: As far as second by second 25 observation, no. I think part of that is assumed. When
521 the Crowd Management Unit advanced, like I said, some of 2 the people scattered through the sandy lot, immediately 3 broke and ran back to the Park. 4 A few, three (3), four (4), five (5) I 5 don't know, just stood. They were -- they wanted to get 6 it on and they started swinging as the CMU advanced to 7 them. 8 The CMU, the main line seemed to push 9 beyond and through to the Park line. And after they had 10 passed by, I could see at least three (3) clusters of 11 officers and where it appeared there were fights going on 12 with some of the protesters. 13 And my recollection is, I'm scanning back 14 and forth is -- is two (2) of them managed to get away 15 from the officers, but one (1) it seemed that the 16 officers managed to subdue him. 17 Again it -- you're just passing views that 18 I was getting over, Okay, it looks like we got somebody, 19 while trying to maintain an overall picture of the scene. 20 Q: And at this point in time, when the 21 CMU was back in the sandy parking lot, and you say you 22 were observing and scanning, can you tell us what you 23 were doing? 24 A: Just keeping observation. Somewhere 25 in -- in the movement I communicated to Constable Klym
531 that I would take a primary arc of responsibility of 2 observation from basically off our nose, which would have 3 been east, I guess, into the Park and then to the left, 4 running through to lakeside. And I think he was to 5 monitor more closely the right arc. 6 It doesn't mean that we weren't looking 7 into each other's arc and keeping an eye on things, but 8 that was the general split. 9 So, as -- as things were going on, I'm 10 trying to maintain observation in my arc, assessing 11 what's going on with CMU but also monitoring what the 12 people are doing -- the other people are doing in the 13 Park and at the Park, and still trying to do my job, 14 assessing whether there's weapons in the hands -- 15 firearms in the hands of any of the protesters or if 16 anything is going on that people should be notified of. 17 My actions at the time; I would have been 18 using my flashlight on occasion to light up darker areas 19 or -- I don't believe I used my night vision too much up 20 there, because it would seem like it was a fairly well 21 lit area. 22 Q: And was there any artificial light 23 from that -- you've told us about the car headlights, 24 about spotlights, the bonfire. 25 Were there any other lights that you can
541 recall? 2 A: I think there was a moon up that 3 night, because one of the recollections I have earlier on 4 is after observing the two (2) people I believed were out 5 scouting, when they had made their assessment and started 6 moving back to the Park, I looked over my shoulder and my 7 recollection is I could see the moonlight glinting off of 8 the Crowd Management Unit -- 9 Q: And was this -- 10 A: -- helmets in a dark area down the 11 dark road. So in the -- in the actual sandy parking lot, 12 in my mind, I could see fairly clearly from the lighting 13 that was there. 14 Q: Was there a light on the hydro pole 15 that you were standing by? 16 A: I couldn't tell you. 17 Q: And what about inside the Park. Did 18 you see any lights by -- inside the Park? 19 A: I don't think -- 20 Q: Light -- 21 A: -- there was a light on the hydro 22 pole, sir, because I think I would have been 23 uncomfortable standing under it. So, lights in the Park, 24 again I -- I couldn't speak to specifically. 25 Q: And your primary role when you were
551 by the hydro pole was to scan the area to determine if 2 anyone had a firearm? 3 A: Yes. Primarily, yes. 4 Q: And did you see anyone with a firearm 5 at any time when you were up on the sandy hill by the 6 hydro pole? 7 A: No, sir. 8 Q: And you indicated that the protesters 9 wanted to get it -- and I think you used the word "get it 10 on" and in your notes you have the words "confront the 11 CMU", and I take it what you're referring to is the fact 12 that certain individuals stayed and engaged with the 13 police officers? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And did anyone, while you were 16 present in the sandy parking lot and -- say to the 17 protesters, If you stay inside the Park everything will 18 be okay? 19 A: I don't have any recollection of 20 that, sir. 21 Q: Did -- as part of the TRU team what 22 you do, have you used loud speakers or loud megaphones or 23 loudhailers on occasion to communicate with people? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And did anyone suggest to you or the
561 other members of -- of the TRU team that evening to use a 2 megaphone or loudhailer to communicate with the 3 individuals in the Park? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And is it fair to say that it was 6 your assumption that, based on the language that you 7 used, Constable Beauchesne, that the protesters were -- 8 wanted to engage with the police? 9 A: Some of them did, sir. 10 Q: Did it cross your mind at any time 11 the evening of the 6th, or the morning of the 7th, that 12 perhaps the people inside the Park were concerned that 13 the police were coming into the Park? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Whether I -- I'm sorry, you'd have to 18 rephrase it. My impression, I guess, just to speak to 19 what I think you're asking is, I guess they could have 20 that concern but the actions of the officers, the Crowd 21 Management Unit, they stopped short of the Park fence. 22 And every advance stopped short of the Park fence. 23 So maybe initially on they felt that the 24 officers might be coming into the Park. But I think that 25 the officers actions that night, stopping at the fence
571 and then ultimately withdrawing down the road... 2 Q: Okay. So that the -- we have the CMU 3 back into the fence, you make a note about the person 4 being arrested. But it's fair to say -- did you see any 5 -- did -- how much of that arrest did you see? What kind 6 of details if any, can you give to us? 7 A: The only details I can give is that 8 there were people that stood and fought and they had to 9 be fought with. But as far as specifics of how they were 10 fought with -- I know that I recall clusters of officers 11 trying to deal with people that were fighting and 12 resisting. 13 Q: And the person who was arrested, did 14 you see that person on the ground, being carried? What 15 did you see? 16 A: No, sir. I -- I have no -- 17 Q: You didn't see any -- 18 A: -- specific recollection of -- of the 19 details there. 20 Q: Okay. Then the protesters except for 21 the ones you've told us about, retreated behind the 22 fence. There were a group -- three (3) groups that you 23 can recall; two (2) went behind the fence and one (1) was 24 arrested as you've just told us. 25 Then -- then what happened? And if you
581 refer to the bottom of page 10, the CMU -- 2 A: Yeah. The CMU then withdrew from the 3 fence line back onto Army Camp Road and then objects -- 4 objects continued to be rained down on us from the Park 5 area from the protesters. 6 And at a certain point I think Constable 7 Klym pointed out that I just about got clocked but -- 8 Q: When you -- when you say you "just 9 about got clocked" -- 10 A: I just about got hit by something. 11 We weren't equipped to deal with -- we -- the TRU team 12 members were not dressed in any kind of CMU gear so we 13 were somewhat vulnerable I guess. 14 Q: So you didn't have protection from -- 15 hard TAC protection like the CMU members? 16 A: No helmets or visors or shields or 17 anything to really protect us from -- from clubs or 18 sticks or objects getting thrown at us, sir, no. 19 Q: You had a bullet proof vest? 20 A: Yes. Yeah. 21 Q: Then what happened? 22 A: The CMU began reversing down East 23 Parkway, disengaging. And as they moved down the road 24 where it pretty well comes out of the curve and turns 25 into East Parkway, just prior to that I -- I noticed it
591 was going to get pretty tight with all the officers 2 across the road. 3 And I made the decision that I was going 4 to hop the fence and go into the small field just to the 5 -- I guess we'll call the non-lake side, the Highway 21 6 side, of East Parkway and Constable Klym jumped over the 7 fence with me as well. 8 Q: Okay. Then what happened? 9 A: We continued parallelling the CMU as 10 it moved down East Parkway. About 30 metres in I -- I 11 heard a crash or a sound and I saw a school bus coming 12 out of the -- the fenced area of the Park. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: A full size school bus. And I could 15 hear it accelerate and it pulled right up onto East 16 Parkway. I was looking at it and I remember going it's - 17 - my initial thought was it's going to be used to 18 intimidate us if, you know, they pull the bus out, but it 19 continued to accelerate from the sandy parking area onto 20 the road. 21 And it was speeding up quite a bit and at 22 a certain point I realized that wasn't what was going to 23 happen. It was going to continue on right through and -- 24 Q: Right through what? 25 A: Right through the center of the road,
601 right through the CMU members all across the center of 2 the road. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: I felt a number of things. I felt 5 helpless, but I -- I -- at a certain point I -- I thought 6 I should shoot the driver to stop him but I ruled it out 7 immediately. 8 Q: And why did you rule it out 9 immediately, sir? 10 A: Because the bus was already moving 11 too quickly and it wouldn't have stopped the bus. So 12 even if I had disabled the driver right away it wouldn't 13 have -- wouldn't have helped the matter. 14 So I was left standing while the bus 15 rolled right through the middle of the Crowd Management 16 Unit to my left. 17 I was just a few metres from the road. As 18 the bus went by members of the Crowd Management Unit dove 19 in my direction and away. 20 Q: Away from the bus? 21 A: I just -- they just tried to get out 22 of their way. My feeling was that we had had members run 23 over. 24 Q: Pardon me? 25 A: My feeling was that we had had
611 members of the Crowd Management Unit run over by the bus. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: It was moving that quick. Again I 4 was shocked. I was feeling helpless and I just couldn't 5 believe what I had just witnessed. 6 Q: And how fast was the bus going? 7 A: I've estimated it here at 30 miles an 8 hour; that's my estimate. But in thinking about it that 9 may be a little on the high side but that's -- that's 10 what I estimated it at the time. 11 Q: And -- and on reflection that may be 12 on the high side? 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: All right. On reflection how fast do 15 you think it was going? 16 A: I'm not sure if -- if you could run 17 next to it at full tilt and keep up with it so I would 18 imagine 15/20 miles an hour maybe. 19 Q: Then what happened? 20 A: As soon as the bus blew through the 21 center of the CMU I -- my attention was caught by another 22 vehicle come out -- coming out of the -- the sandy 23 parking lot area. It was a car and it was, as I started 24 noting it, it was just coming onto the paved portion of 25 Army Camp Road.
621 The car didn't drive directly into East 2 Parkway, it -- it followed a bit of a -- a serpentine 3 manoeuvre. I don't know if it was in a searching mode 4 but it -- it swung out and back. As it came toward me it 5 -- it started cutting away across the road from me where 6 I could see there were six (6) or eight (8) Crowd 7 Management Unit officers in the ditch. They were 8 standing alongside the road. 9 Q: And that was on the lake side of the 10 road or on the -- 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: -- Highway 21 side? 13 A: On the lake side of the road -- 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: -- opposite the road from me. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: And the car purposely drove right 18 into the thickest portion of it and ran right into the -- 19 the group of officers there. 20 Q: But you -- what you observed was the 21 car driving into the officers? 22 A: Yes, right opposite from me. 23 Q: And your assumption is, from what 24 you've just said, that the driver did that on purpose. 25 What you actually observed was the car driving into the
631 officers? 2 A: Yes, my assumption was that it -- it 3 appeared to be directed right into the -- the thickest 4 part of the officers there. 5 Q: And then what happened? 6 A: Officers went onto the hood of the 7 car. I heard the noise of their equipment against the 8 vehicle. I thought we'd had officers run over. Some of 9 them went out of sight and I was again thinking that this 10 fellow had run over officers opposite the road from me. 11 So the -- the car stayed there for a moment and then 12 backed out onto the road -- 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: -- and -- and was astride, sort of 15 the center of the road, angled still towards the lake 16 side, the nose of the car, and it stopped. And I was 17 tracking that car very carefully because I was concerned 18 about what he was going to do next, the driver. 19 Q: And how many people did you see in 20 the car? 21 A: I recall seeing a driver, a driver's 22 head, the outline of a head but I can't recall if there 23 were more people in the car. I don't know. 24 Q: But you -- but what you can recall is 25 seeing one (1) person in the car, the driver?
641 A: Yeah, the silhouette, yes. 2 Q: Okay. Then what happened? 3 A: I waited to see what the driver was 4 going to do and in my mind I was thinking if he made one 5 (1) move again towards the officers that I was fearing 6 for their lives and that I was going to -- I was going to 7 use my rifle and I was going to shoot him to stop him 8 from doing that. 9 Q: And why were -- why were you going to 10 shoot -- to use your rifle? 11 A: I was going to use my rifle as really 12 the only piece of equipment that I had the ability to 13 reach out and -- and attempt to stop him from continuing 14 his actions which in my mind if he had moved forward he 15 was going to potentially run over officers again. 16 Q: Okay. And then -- 17 A: So I was going -- 18 Q: -- what happened? 19 A: The vehicle started moving forward 20 and I immediately fired two (2) rounds in very rapid 21 succession. 22 Q: And the -- where did you -- when you 23 fired your two (2) rounds how far were you away from the 24 car and the driver? 25 A: I would say about 20 metres or so.
651 Q: And that's what you've got in your 2 notes? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And when you fired your weapon, what 5 did you aim at? 6 A: I aimed at where I believed the -- 7 the center mass of the driver to be and -- 8 Q: And why did you aim at the center 9 mass of the driver? 10 A: Well, I'm following my training, 11 mainly. It was a very quick assessment and shooting, so 12 it wasn't something that I had the time, really, to aim 13 and make careful shots, so I picked the portion of the 14 vehicle that I felt I would be able to make my shots go 15 into the driver, if I could. 16 Q: And when you say the "center mass" 17 and your "training" are you trained to shoot at the 18 centre mass of a -- of an object or...? 19 A: Almost exclusively, yes. 20 Q: Then you fired your two (2) shots, 21 then what happened? 22 A: The vehicle stopped. At that time I 23 started hearing other gunfire off to my left. I believed 24 it to be police gunfire. 25 And for a few seconds that was what was
661 happening. I was continuing to watch the car and then 2 the car slowly began to back up away from me -- or down 3 the road, down East Parkway. 4 Q: And then the car began to go back 5 down East Parkway and where did it go? 6 A: It -- I'm not -- I can't recall 7 exactly where I stopped looking at the car. I was 8 following it pretty closely. I was, I'd say, almost 9 locked on it and I -- I believed I yelled, Back off, at 10 the driver or at the vehicle. 11 And then just all of a sudden, I'd 12 forgotten about the bus and it just re-appeared, coming 13 back in reverse, it startled me, and down the 21 side, 21 14 Highway side of the road and it had a good clip; just all 15 of a sudden it was there. 16 And just did a full motion back down the 17 road. 18 Q: Okay. And -- 19 A: And that's what drew my attention 20 away from the car. 21 Q: And then what happened? 22 A: The bus and the car ultimately went 23 back into the sandy parking lot or Park area. I -- I'm 24 not sure which. They disengaged. I had a look around 25 me. There was some CMU officers in the ditch.
671 I just asked if everybody was okay. 2 Hopped the fence. I went over and spoke with acting 3 Sergeant Deane. I asked him, you know, Are we pulling 4 out? The Sierra's with us. You know, what are we doing? 5 They were doing a head count at that time 6 and we sort of picked ourselves up and -- and I was -- at 7 that time, sort of surprised that --it didn't sound like 8 there were anybody seriously -- seriously injured on the 9 police side. 10 Q: And then what happened? 11 A: And then we started folding back down 12 the road. As the Alpha team took more -- put itself more 13 in between the CMU and we just monitored very carefully 14 down the end of the road what was going on as we were 15 withdrawing, as the CMU was withdrawing behind us toward 16 the TOC site. 17 Q: And did you go forward at any point 18 and to look to see if there were anyone in the ditches, 19 do you recall? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: Okay. Now, when the bus came out the 22 -- had you had any information as a TRU team member about 23 the bus before the evening of September the 6th? 24 A: I believe I -- I had information that 25 the bus -- a bus had been used during the -- the takeover
681 of the CFB Ipperwash. It had been used by protesters to 2 either ram a vehicle or ram the gate. 3 Q: And when the bus went by you, did -- 4 when it first went by you on its way out, you saw the 5 driver? Did you see anybody else in the bus? 6 A: No, sir. I remember seeing the 7 driver clearly, but I couldn't tell you if there was 8 anybody else in the bus. 9 Q: And the -- did you see any firearms 10 protruding from the bus? 11 A: No. And again, it was a quick, 12 fleeting sort of thing. No, I didn't. 13 Q: And did you see any firearms on the 14 inside of the bus? 15 A: No, sir, I didn't have the 16 opportunity to make a long observation like that. 17 Q: And when you saw the car -- and did 18 you see, and I've asked you this, you didn't see anybody 19 else in the car? 20 A: No, not that I can recall, no. 21 Q: And when you were focussing on your - 22 - the car with your firearm did you see any weapon, any 23 firearm of any type protruding from the car? 24 A: No, sir. 25 Q: Did you -- when you shot your rifle
691 had you heard any shots before you shot your rifle? 2 A: I didn't hear any shots. And that 3 doesn't mean that they weren't happening but I -- the 4 first shots that I -- I really remember hearing were my 5 own. 6 Q: And then you heard shots. You were 7 at this point facing towards the lake, facing north if 8 the lake's the north towards the -- 9 A: North -- northeast, sort of. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And you're looking at the car in the 13 road? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And the -- the shots that you then 16 heard were from your left? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that would be towards the TOC? 19 A: More off towards where I felt the CMU 20 members might be, just off as I'm sort of looking at you 21 as the car, just in this area here. 22 Q: Right by -- 23 A: Yeah, off my left shoulder. 24 Q: -- on your left-hand side? 25 A: Yeah.
701 Q: And you assumed it -- you thought it 2 was CMU members? 3 A: Yeah, I guess that was one (1) of the 4 assumptions. It could have been TRU Team members I 5 suppose as well, but... 6 Q: And -- but -- and did you -- when you 7 were observing the car that you said that you kept under 8 close observation did you hear -- did you see an -- an 9 officer right up beside the car? 10 A: No, I don't recall that, no. 11 Q: A CMU officer? Did you see a shotgun 12 come out of the driver's side of the car? 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: Or what -- did you hear a shotgun 15 blast by -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- the car? 18 A: Not that I -- no, I have no 19 recollection of that. 20 Q: And if you had heard a shotgun blast 21 by the car you would have made a note of that in your 22 notebook wouldn't you? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: That would have been significant? 25 A: If I'd have noticed it, yes, sir.
711 Q: And the -- on the evening of 2 September the 6th when you were down in the -- with the 3 CMU down towards -- in the sandy parking lot area did you 4 see any of the protestors with a firearm? 5 A: I'm sorry, could you repeat that? 6 Q: Did you see any protestors the 7 evening of September the 6th with a firearm? 8 A: No, I did not. 9 Q: And prior to the evening of September 10 the 6th -- 6th you told us I think you'd been on the TRU 11 Team by this time for approximately seven (7) year and 12 had been a police officer for ten (10) years? 13 A: I had been on the TRU Team since 14 1990, so about five (5) years. 15 Q: So five (5) years. 16 A: And yes, about ten (10) years on -- 17 on the OPP at that point. 18 Q: And prior to the evening of September 19 the 6th had you ever fired your weapon at a person? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: This was the first time? 22 A: Yes, it was. 23 Q: Now, the -- on the board behind you 24 there's a drawing and this is a copy of Exhibit 23, 25 Commissioner, the drawing done by Mr. Thompson. But this
721 particular drawing that's in front of you was Exhibit 30 2 of your testimony at the Kenneth Deane trial, I believe? 3 A: Okay, it looks familiar, sir, yes. 4 Q: And could you pick up the microphone. 5 There's a hand microphone, Constable Beauchesne, and you 6 will find that there's a laser -- there should be a laser 7 pointer just beside you too? 8 And the -- there's a hydro pole marked on 9 this diagram and perhaps we could mark Exhibit -- this 10 exhibit as the next Exhibit just to give it a number so 11 that... 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1589, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1589: "Stan" Thompson drawing, 15 September 20, 1995; Exhibit 16 30 marked by P/C Beauchesne 17 during Kenneth Deane Trial. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And the "MB" is drawn on this and "MB 21 arc" with a "1" and then "WK arc" as a "2". And "MB" and 22 "WK" are shown by -- if you look closely at this, there's 23 a hydro pole drawn in there. 24 You were at the top of the -- this is the 25 sandy bank you were talking about?
731 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And this -- the arc that is shown on 3 this -- on the Exhibit 1589 is the arc that you told us 4 about that you were responsible? That's -- 5 A: Yes. Generally speaking that was the 6 arc that I -- we had decided that we would focus on. 7 Q: And there's a dotted line that runs 8 just by the initials WR and then there's another line on 9 -- to the left on 1589 to -- from "1MB arc", and if the 10 Park is twelve o'clock, your arc ran around to nine 11 o'clock? 12 Is that correct? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I believe that's WK there as well, 16 William Klym. But -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- this I think you could -- you'd 19 have to cross reference it with the testimony that I 20 gave. But just in general terms, the area that I was 21 more than likely primarily assessing, when we divide an 22 arc we -- it's -- we -- we really should be looking at 23 three sixty (360). 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: But realizing that most of what we're
741 going to be monitoring is to the front. This was the 2 simple dividing line here. This again I -- I'm not sure 3 why the line's there. It's been a while but it doesn't 4 mean that I wouldn't have been looking further back in 5 here or -- or even occasionally back this way. 6 But general speaking, I think the focus of 7 my observations were here. 8 Q: And by "here" you're referring to 9 where the words "1 MB Arc" is in the sandy parking lot? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And then William -- WK which stands 12 for William Klym was -- his arc was primarily the other 13 way? 14 A: Yes. But I -- as I mentioned 15 earlier, he -- he could be looking into my arc. 16 Q: Sure. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: That there's -- and then on this 19 particular drawing, Exhibit P-1589, there's a -- an 'X' 20 and can you recall -- it's my understanding that the 'X' 21 signifies where you were when you saw the car? 22 A: Yeah. Notionally on -- on a diagram 23 that's roughly where I believed I was standing when the 24 bus and the car came through. 25 Q: And if you could take the next
751 drawing that's below you and for the benefit of My 2 Friends, I sent out an electronic version of this which 3 is an exact copy of the drawing that's on the -- on the 4 easel now. 5 But at Tab 9 there's a copy of Exhibit 6 100077 which is a -- another copy of the same drawing but 7 it -- and I think I've given the wrong number. It's 8 1000077. 9 And this drawing was drawn on September 10 25th, I believe, 1995 and your signature appears on the 11 upper right hand corner, is that correct or -- 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And I would ask that the large 14 drawing be marked the next exhibit. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1590, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1590: Topographical map of 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park 19 marked and signed by Mr. Mark 20 Beauchesne September 25, 21 1995. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And using the exhibit, Exhibit 1590, 25 the -- can you tell us what the -- where the location of
761 the bus, there's a number of entries on the right hand 2 side, "approximate location where I first observed bus", 3 and that is the 'X' that's at in that area; is that 4 correct? 5 A: Yeah. That's how I've got it marked 6 there, yes. That's, I believe, my handwriting here. 7 Q: And then the -- there's a path shown 8 -- there's a -- on the upper part just below -- on top of 9 the 'X' to the immediate left of the elevation point one 10 eight three point one (183.1) "approximate path of bus 11 coming out Park". 12 And the bus goes down to a point -- down 13 west on East Parkway Drive, if the lake is north and, 14 "bus out of view, bush line". 15 Do you see that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that's the point where the bus 18 went out of view? 19 A: Again, the diagram's very cluttered 20 and just using reference points off it but yes, I -- 21 that was an observation that I made that day that there - 22 - there was trees off to my left and it would have been 23 out of my view. 24 Q: And then on the drawing there's a 25 point that appears to be just to the Highway 21 side of
771 the fence and the note is: 2 "Approximate position from which I 3 fired on car. Also position I was in 4 when [I believe it says] CMU members 5 were hit by the car." 6 Have I read that correctly? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And then there's a little drawing of 9 what appears to be a car and the note is: 10 "Approximate position of bus reverse." 11 No that's -- excuse me, I'm -- I -- the 12 arrow that comes from the car is: 13 "Approximate position of car from 14 which..." 15 Can you just read what's written in that 16 spot there, please? 17 A: "Approximate position of car when I 18 fired." 19 Q: Okay. And so that is a small 20 rectangle of -- that you see on the East Parkway Drive? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And there's an arrow that does show 23 the approximate path of the bus reversing back into the 24 Park. And then there's another arrow pointing to a spot 25 by the second driveway where it says:
781 "Approximate location where CMU members 2 were struck by car." 3 Is that -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- correct? And then the last: 6 "Approximate path of car reversing 7 after impact with CMU members." 8 Have I read that correctly? 9 A: Yes. And it appears to be a line 10 running right along the edge of the road. 11 Q: And so that this drawing depicts the 12 path of the bus out and back and the path of the car? 13 A: Approximately. 14 Q: Yes. Now, I'm going to show you a 15 couple of photographs. And, Commissioner, these are part 16 of Exhibit P-24 and at the actual copy of P-24 is right 17 beside you. You see the black binder? 18 It might be easier for you. The first 19 photograph that I'm going to show is photograph, P-24, 20 photograph number 2. 21 And I'm doing what I shouldn't do and 22 that's standing away from the mic. And in the background 23 in this photograph -- and you'll see it better in the 24 photograph. If you go to Tab 1, you'll see at the bottom 25 right hand side at the bottom, there should be a green
791 tab, a little flag, on photograph 2. 2 And in the background there appears to be 3 a hydro pole on the top of a sandy hill. And is that the 4 hydro pole that you were standing beside? 5 A: Yes, I believe it was. 6 Q: And there's a sand pile. We've heard 7 evidence that that sand pile just to the left of the 8 hydro pole was not there the evening of September the 9 6th. 10 Is that your recollection? 11 A: I'd -- I'd have to take somebody's 12 word for it. It may -- it may have been put there or may 13 have been the hill moved -- 14 Q: But do you recall -- 15 A: -- or adjusted. 16 Q: -- a sand pile protruding out into 17 the parking lot on the evening of September the 6th? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Then the next photograph is 20 photograph number 3. This is facing towards the Park 21 from east -- the Parkway Drive and shows, again, a hydro 22 pole in the foreground. And that is the hydro pole that 23 you were standing by? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And there doesn't appear to be any
801 lights on this hydro pole, is that... 2 A: No. 3 Q: And again, this is a -- it's -- the 4 last photograph was photograph 3 from Exhibit P-24. The 5 next photograph is Exhibit -- photograph 15. 6 And if you go to Tab 8, and there's a 7 little green flag, you'll see this photograph. And this 8 is a close up of the sandy -- the -- the berm or sandy 9 hill that -- and the pole. 10 And does that depict where you were 11 standing along with Constable Klym? 12 You're looking towards the Park in this. 13 A: It -- it appears to be, yes. 14 Q: And then one (1) last view, it's 15 photograph 17 from P-24 which is at Tab 9 in the book in 16 front of you with the little "17" on it. And it's 17 another view of the pole -- 18 A: Yes, sir. Yeah. 19 Q: Then if you could turn to Tab 5, and 20 it's got a red flag on it. If you go to the first red 21 flag. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And this is a shot that's taken
811 looking towards -- from the -- if north is the lake, from 2 the east side of East -- of Army Camp Road looking west 3 down East Parkway and there's a fence on the other -- on 4 the background of the -- what is Army Camp Road which is 5 in the foreground. And the fence runs along Army Camp 6 Road and then along East Parkway Drive. 7 Is that the fence that you refer to that 8 you jumped over? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that's photograph 10 in P-24. 11 And the next photograph is photograph 11 and it shows the 12 buildings that were in the field at the time. 13 And do you recall the buildings being 14 there? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: It's the same -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- same -- 19 A: Yeah. Yeah. 20 Q: And that's photograph 11. And then 21 the last photograph, it's a photograph looking towards 22 the sandy parking lot from the field and the hydro pole 23 that's on the sandy hill or berm is in the background. 24 Do you see that, Constable Beauchesne? 25 A: Yes, I do.
821 Q: And the -- in the foreground is the 2 field that you were in on the evening of September the 3 6th? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that's Exhibit Number P-24, 6 photograph 12. And then lastly... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: This is a photograph of the -- it's 11 been identified as the weapon that -- the firearm that 12 you had that evening. Does that appear to be? 13 A: It -- 14 Q: I can tell you it is. 15 A: Okay. I'll take -- it's an HK-33. 16 It appears to be -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- almost identical, yes. 19 Q: And the -- but it is an HK-33? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: So now, on the evening of, excuse me, 22 September the 6th when you were down the road you talked 23 about a -- a flashlight that you had. And can you tell 24 the Commissioner what type of flashlight you had. 25 A: The make was a Surefire; it's a
831 common company. It's a -- it's a small flashlight. It's 2 a powerful flashlight that can be mounted to the weapon 3 and it's operated by a pressure pad that you tape or 4 secure to the forestock of the weapon so that you can 5 activate the light with one (1) hand intermittently or 6 leave it full on if you squeeze the pad and hold it. 7 Q: And what kind of light does it emit 8 when you -- 9 A: A white light? 10 Q: A white light. And I take it it's a 11 small white light? 12 A: It's a very powerful flashlight. It 13 -- it puts a flood out. 14 Q: And that we've -- on the photograph 15 that we've just seen from Exhibit P-24 of the weapon, 16 neither the night scope or the flashlight are on that 17 weapon; is that correct? 18 A: No, sir. 19 Q: And we'll come to that in a moment. 20 And do you know if when you were up on the hill by the -- 21 by the hydro pole did you notice if anyone was paying any 22 attention to you up there? 23 A: I think I was noticed up there at 24 certain times and -- and I think I wanted to be noticed 25 at certain times. I put my flashlight on people that
841 were moving around in the back to let them know they were 2 being monitored or at least give them the impression that 3 they were being monitored and as a result I would be 4 noticed. 5 Q: By the people -- 6 A: By the people that I'm shining a 7 light on. 8 Q: And you did that on purpose? 9 A: I did that on purpose. 10 Q: So you're on -- if we go to -- go 11 back now to what happened, you're moving back down the 12 road and you get to the TOC? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 14 would this be a good point to take a break? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 17 short break now, morning break? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, sure. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 20 for fifteen (15) minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 10:35 a.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 10:51 a.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
851 resumed. please be seated. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Constable Beauchesne, just before the 5 break I asked you about the SureFire light, and you had 6 indicated that you had used it to look at people inside 7 the Park. What -- how far away were the people that you 8 shone the light on? What I'm trying to get at is how far 9 would the light go forward from when you turn on the 10 flashlight? What was its reach? 11 A: I guess a lot would depend on -- on 12 how dark an area is, but -- 13 Q: The -- 14 A: -- without -- light goes on forever. 15 Sometimes I use the light just to give people the 16 impression I can see them even though you know it doesn't 17 penetrate as deeply and give you good observation. 18 So generally speaking, in the area behind 19 the fence and maybe 20/30 metres behind the -- where I 20 could make out people moving around. 21 Q: It would be approximately 20 to 30 22 metres? 23 A: Beyond the fence, and I believe I was 24 short of the fence so, you know, 50 metres. 25 Q: Pardon me? I can't hear you.
861 A: I'm sorry. Like up, you know, 50/60 2 metres I may be trying to illuminate areas, it's -- 3 Q: Okay. Now when you got back to the 4 TOC, what happened? And if you look at Exhibit P-1589 -- 5 excuse me, 1587, page 14. 6 A: You're referring to my notebook, sir? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Yeah, okay. Returned to the TOC and 9 then pretty well immediately reported to Acting Staff 10 Sergeant Skinner and -- 11 Q: And do you recall what you said to 12 Acting Staff Sergeant Skinner? 13 A: Not verbatim, but I reported -- I 14 believe we all stood around Alpha and I'm not sure if 15 there was Sierra unit members there as well. But we gave 16 an update as to, you know, the use of our firearms and -- 17 and just a quick overview of what -- what had happened. 18 Q: Do you recall any specifics today? 19 A: No, sir. 20 Q: Then what happened? 21 A: I was reassigned; given another call 22 sign and reassigned other duties. 23 Q: And the new call sign was Romeo? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you were assigned with Bill Klym
871 again? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And what were you assigned to do? 4 A: I think we were given various tasks 5 through the night. I can't -- at one point I believe we 6 went down to the beach. We were visiting various 7 deployed units, ERT and TRU, whether it's to run food or 8 water out or -- I don't think we actually had a position 9 where we were establishing security. 10 We were sort of used as a -- a bit of a 11 shuttle group, if needed to -- 12 Q: Help other people out? 13 A: Yes. Get food out or monitor an 14 area. 15 Q: And I note in your notes it says: 16 "Two (2) Sierras were deployed to cover 17 the TOC area for security and we 18 provided assistance and support to 19 units on the ground." 20 A: Yes, right, that's -- 21 Q: And so the Sierras would be the two 22 (2) observation sniper teams? 23 A: I haven't noted their name, but it 24 would make sense that they -- the same unit's re- 25 deployed.
881 Q: And at the TOC, did you speak to 2 Kenneth Deane? 3 A: At some point. We -- I was around 4 him when he was speaking or we were speaking together, 5 yes. 6 Q: And did Kenneth Deane say anything to 7 you? 8 A: Outside of the debrief, I -- I know 9 at one point we were exchanging information to do with 10 what had happened. And the reason I -- I think it was in 11 relation to the number of people that potentially had 12 been killed and it -- trying to figure, from the numbers 13 that we were receiving in the evening, who might have 14 been the person that had fired the rounds that actually 15 caused the fatality. 16 The car driver, in my mind, took a lot of 17 shots to him. It was my impression that I fired at the 18 car and other -- other officers had. 19 So I felt that probably the most likely 20 person to have been seriously injured or killed would 21 have been the driver of the car. 22 And during the exchange, I think it was 23 coming out that either there was only one (1) person that 24 was seriously wounded or -- or dead and that -- I 25 thought, well, the car driver and I note -- and I believe
891 Ken -- Ken said, Well my guy dropped. 2 That was the kind of the gist of, did you 3 see the guy with the gun at some point and well, and -- 4 and this exchange of who could be the one that's the 5 fatality, and me feeling it's the car driver, 6 potentially, most likely. 7 And he said, Well my guy dropped. And 8 that's sort of how I've connected. 9 I believe they were the same sort of 10 exchange, but I can't be a 100 percent certain at this 11 time. 12 Q: And when was this exchange? 13 A: Some time over the evening. 14 Q: When you mean, over the evening...? 15 A: From the time -- I believe at this 16 point now it was after we had debriefed Staff Sergeant 17 Skinner, sometime over the evening as information is 18 coming in from intelligence or from the hospitals or from 19 -- we would have exchanged information or bumped into 20 each other or either prior to leaving or -- I really 21 couldn't tell you exactly in the evening when that 22 happened. 23 Q: When did you learn that someone had 24 actually died? 25 A: Sometime over that night. I couldn't
901 tell you when. 2 Q: And when -- did you learn the name of 3 the person over the evening? 4 A: I don't think so. 5 Q: And when you testified at the Kenneth 6 Deane trial -- and if you go to Tab 16, and this is the 7 transcript of the proceedings before Judge Fraser on 8 April the 10th, 1997, Inquiry Document 1005297. 9 At page 119, line 8 of this -- at this 10 point, you're being cross-examined by -- I mean, excuse 11 me, it's examination in-chief by Mr. Peel. 12 And he asks you: 13 "What, if any, conversation did you -- 14 did you have with him at that point." 15 And at that point, if you look up above is 16 when you're down on the -- still at the -- out on East 17 Parkway Drive. And your answer is: 18 "It would have been to the effect of, 19 is everything okay. Are -- are our 20 Sierra units pulling. We were going to 21 be backing up further. He, at this 22 time, or slightly afterwards, mentioned 23 -- he said, Did you see the guy with 24 the gun?" 25 And do you recall giving that evidence at
911 the Kenneth Deane trial? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And today you're saying that that 4 didn't happen down on the road, but happened later on? 5 A: On reflection, over the months or 6 years since, I'm just trying to put it all together with 7 that other tidbit coming to my mind about, Well my guy 8 dropped. And more and more in my mind I think that must 9 have happened later on in the evening and it didn't 10 happen where I believed it happened during this initial - 11 - during my testimony at the Deane trial. 12 Q: And so that today your recollection 13 is it didn't happen down on East Parkway Drive, but 14 sometime later in the evening, after you got back to the 15 TOC? 16 A: I believe it happened -- it must have 17 happened later. 18 Q: And the -- I would ask that this 19 transcript, at Tab 16 of Constable Beauchesne's testimony 20 at the Kenneth Deane trial, be marked the next exhibit? 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1591, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1591: Document Number 1005297. 24 Examination-in-chief, Cross- 25 examination and Re-
921 examination of Mark 2 Beauchesne in R. v. Kenneth 3 Deane (transcript pages 103- 4 172) April 10, 1997. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And the evidence that you gave at the 8 trial subject to this correction was true and accurate at 9 the time, to the best of your ability? 10 A: Everything was true and accurate at 11 the time, sir. 12 Q: Okay. And since then you've 13 reflected, as you've told us, with respect to the issue 14 of when you spoke to Kenneth Deane? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And then you also testified -- we 17 might as well do this all at the same time -- you 18 testified at the Nicholas Cottrelle trial on, I believe, 19 March 25th, 1997? If you turn to Tab 14 it's Inquiry 20 Document 3000846? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Do you recall that, sir? 25 A: Yes.
931 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 2 the next exhibit? 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1592, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1592: Document Number 3000846. 6 Examination-in-chief, Cross- 7 examination and Re- 8 examination of Mark 9 Beauchesne in R. v Nicholas 10 Abraham Cottrelle (transcript 11 pages 99-1160 March 25, 1997. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And the evidence you gave was true 15 and accurate at the time? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And lastly, you testified as well at 18 the trial of Warren Anthony George and David Abraham 19 George on October 2nd and October 3rd, 1997; is that 20 correct? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And at Tab 20, Commissioner, it's 23 Inquiry Document 1004975, is the evidence of Constable 24 Beauchesne on October 2nd, 1997. And at Tab 21 Inquiry 25 Document 1004976 is his evidence on October 3rd, and it's
941 the cross-examination. And I would ask that these two 2 (2) documents be marked jointly as the next exhibit? 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1593, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1593: Document Numbers 1004975 and 6 1004976. Examination-in- 7 chief of Mark Beauchesne R. v 8 Warren Anthony George and 9 David Abraham George 10 (transcript pages 249-260) 11 October 02, 1997; Cross- 12 examination and Re- 13 examination of Mark 14 Beauchesne, R. v. Warren 15 Anthony George and David 16 Abraham George, (transcript 17 pages 1-16) October 03, 1997. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Then if we could turn back to your 21 notes for a moment at Tab 5, Exhibit P-1587, page 14. 22 And you have an entry at 02:00; is that correct? 23 A: Yes, sir, approximately 02:00. 24 Q: 02:00, and: 25 "Inspector Linton attended the TOC with
951 Acting Staff Sergeant Skinner." 2 And you: 3 "Turned over the rifle magazine and 4 ammunition that I used during the 5 shooting." 6 Is that correct? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And you've made a note: 9 "I retained the spare magazine, light 10 vision, and SureFire light for my SD." 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: What's, "SD"? 13 A: "SD" is short form for suppressed MP- 14 5 -- MP-5 SD. 15 Q: Oh, I see. And the -- so you had -- 16 that evening you had your HK-33 and an MP-5 revolver? 17 A: No. An MP-5 is a -- is a machine gun 18 or submachine gun, and I didn't have my MP-5 SD there. 19 Q: Oh, I see. 20 A: But I believe at that time, again 21 with the limitation of the equipment, I had a light that 22 would -- I could clamp onto my one (1) rifle or I could 23 move it over to the other, so if I had've lost it I would 24 have had no light system for -- for a weapon if I had a 25 callout for ERT.
961 Q: Oh, so -- and so -- you kept it for-- 2 A: So I retained it for use on another 3 weapon. 4 Q: And I -- I didn't ask you this -- I 5 don't think I asked you this before, I may have, did you 6 also have a sidearm that evening? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And that was .9 millimetre...? 9 A: Browning high power, yes, sir. 10 Q: Okay. I did ask that. And then: 11 "We were later relieved by Barrie TRU. 12 Returned to Pinery. Kit down, sit 13 down, and off at 08:00." 14 Is that correct? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And then on September the 7th -- what 17 happened on September the 7th? You went on-duty at 14:00 18 hours? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you -- it appears from the note 21 at page 15 of 1587 that you went off-duty at 04:00? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: The next morning. 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: And what did you do that day?
971 A: We were stood down. We had gone to 2 bed at Pinery Provincial Park. Upon waking we had 3 arrangements to meet counsel. 4 Q: And that was Norman Peel? 5 A: Norm Peel. We travelled to Grand 6 Bend, I believe, to speak to Norm Peel; he was at a hotel 7 there. And we were interviewed individually by him, or 8 spoken to him by him. 9 And after that I believe we had dinner in 10 Grand Bend and then returned to the Pinery where I 11 undertook doing up my notes. 12 Q: And the -- were you staying at the 13 Pinery at this point in time? On the evening of 14 September the -- you were at -- 15 A: The -- the night of the 7th? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: Yes. I believe we returned to the 18 Pinery. 19 Q: And do you recall speaking to or 20 being with Staff Sergeant Lacroix on September the 7th? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell us when you were 23 with Staff Sergeant Lacroix? 24 A: I -- actually I may not -- I may not 25 -- I may be mixing this up with the interviews for SIU.
981 I'd have to check. Actually, I think it was that day we 2 were -- there were quite a few people that wanted to 3 speak to counsel. 4 And we were put into a bit of a holding 5 pattern in a hotel -- hotel room along with ERT members 6 that had been involved in the occurrence. And I believe 7 Staff Sergeant Lacroix was there as well. 8 Q: And did you have separate hotel rooms 9 or were you all together? 10 A: I -- I believe we were together at 11 one point; ERT members, ourselves and Staff Sergeant 12 Lacroix. 13 Q: And did you discuss the incident? 14 A: I -- yes. It would have been to some 15 extent, with the understanding that in my mind I wouldn't 16 be going into details about what I did, but in general 17 terms, yes. 18 Q: And when you're say, "in general 19 terms," can -- 20 A: Well, you know, what happened, you 21 know, the car came out, the bus came out and, you know, 22 again I'm offering speculation. 23 It -- I wouldn't have gone -- 24 Q: You don't remember -- 25 A: -- I wouldn't have gone play by play
991 through what I did, no. 2 Q: And -- but do you have any memory of 3 -- of this or is it just -- 4 A: No. But I -- I -- I'm being honest. 5 I'm saying we would have no doubt talked about the 6 occurrence, but it wasn't to specifics and -- 7 Q: But you don't remember? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And Staff Sergeant Lacroix -- and on 10 the inside of that black binder there's a -- an excerpt 11 from Exhibit P-1448. It's the second last page of 12 Inquiry Document 2005525, or at least the exhibit. 13 And it's a note of Staff Sergeant Lacroix 14 and he's put in his note -- do -- do you see that? It's 15 just a one page -- yes. 16 A: I think I have it. 17 Q: 09:30 and this is on September 7th. 18 "Moved to Pinedale Motel to be 19 interviewed by Norm Peel. Stayed with 20 TRU members, Ken Deane, Mark 21 Beauchesne, Bill [he's got Klem but 22 it's Klym] Brian Sharp and Kevin." 23 And I think he identified Kevin as Kevin 24 York from the 3 District TRU. Does that assist in your 25 recollection?
1001 A: Yep. At 09:30, obviously, is his 2 time line when he moved to Pinedale, but after 14:00 is 3 when we came on-duty, I believe, that day. 4 Q: Okay. And then do you recall being 5 with Staff Sergeant Lacroix at approximately 18:45 hours 6 on September the 7th? 7 A: I -- I'm not sure where I was at that 8 time. I -- I don't have any recollection of it. 9 Q: And you'll find, as well, in the 10 inside cover of the binder, a copy of Exhibit P-1361, 11 which is a transcript of a telephone call between Wade 12 Lacroix and Staff Sergeant Brian Deevy. 13 Do you know Staff Sergeant Brian Deevy was 14 back in 1995? 15 A: I believe he was the team leader of 16 the Barrie team at that time. 17 Q: And I understand you've had the 18 opportunity to listen to this transmission that's marked 19 in 1361? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Just -- oh, just the first part, I'm 25 told. And do you recall being in a room with Staff
1011 Sergeant Lacroix when he called Staff Sergeant Brian 2 Deevy on early evening of September the 7th, 1995? 3 A: My recollection is -- is vague. I -- 4 I really can't be sure I was in a room with Wade when he 5 called Deeve that night. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: But having listened to the -- the 8 first part of the audio, it does sound like my voice 9 early on. So, I -- I would assume that I was probably 10 there. 11 Q: And when you -- can you identify 12 which part of it -- what words were your voice or...? 13 A: I'd have to listen to it again and 14 actually identify them, but it's in the background. 15 Q: In the background you think you -- 16 A: I -- 17 Q: -- think you heard yourself? 18 A: I think -- I think I'm hearing myself 19 make a comment about a -- something on TV. 20 Q: And does this transcript, P-1361, did 21 you read it, take a look at it? 22 A: I haven't read that, sir. 23 Q: Well, perhaps you could just take a 24 look at it. What we might do -- excuse me for a minute, 25 Commissioner.
1021 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: This should be the call. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 6 7 Q: I'm going to start it again, I'm 8 sorry. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 11 12 Q: You'll recall, Commissioner, that 13 this conversation was divided up into two (2) parts. My 14 Friends have just told me that he was on the first part. 15 He may be on the first part. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 18 19 MARK BEAUCHESNE: Do you want an answer 20 to that? 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 23 24 THE WITNESS: I think that voice in the 25 background there is mine. It certainly sounds like me.
1031 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Staff Sergeant Lacroix was talking 4 about Brian Deevy and -- 5 A: I think I might have caught what I 6 think is my voice. The comment I make is: 7 "Do you want an answer to that? Who 8 talks more, Brian Deevy or him?" 9 He doesn't want an answer to that. 10 Q: And that you think is your voice? 11 A: I think it -- it sounds like my 12 voice. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 15 16 Q: Then, Commissioner, it goes into the 17 -- the actual call that's P-1361. 18 So it -- you think that it's your voice in 19 the background saying -- 20 A: It -- it sounds like my voice. 21 Q: And on P-1361 there's a number of 22 questions that are asked by Staff Sergeant Lacroix and if 23 you look at the transcript he says on page 1: 24 "We want to know what the injuries are 25 from the autopsy."
1041 And there's a discussion about the 2 injuries. Does that assist you in your recollection? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: And the -- do you recall at all 5 asking and discussing the injuries on the evening of 6 September the 7th and wanting to know what the autopsy 7 reports are? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: And the -- after the -- you've got in 10 your notes you had dinner at -- at 18:00. It says, "D"; 11 that I take it is dinner? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then 19:00: 14 "Resume notes. Return to Pinery to 15 complete notes." 16 And then were you on standby until 04:00? 17 A: No, I was -- we were stood done. I 18 was stood down so I'm marked myself off-duty at 04:00 19 so... 20 Q: Okay. And then what happened on 21 September the 8th? 22 A: Back on-duty at 07:00 and went to 23 Grand Bend. Met with counsel at breakfast or had 24 breakfast and met with counsel, and awaiting the SIU -- 25 OPP and SIU investigators.
1051 Q: And then at 8:30 you met with... 2 A: At 16:30 -- approximately 16:30 -- 3 Q: Oh, 16:30, I misread that. I'm 4 sorry. 5 A: "Met with SIU and OPP investigators, 6 Ed Wilson and Detective Sergeant Randy 7 Parent, of Essex OPP. Taped interview. 8 Duty report." 9 Q: And then it indicates 16:50 10 completed? 11 A: Completed. 12 Q: Is that correct? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And the -- at Tab 12 is a copy of 15 what -- it's Inquiry Document 1004634 which is the 16 interview -- a transcript of the interview between 17 yourself and Mr. Parent and Mr. Wilson? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Is that correct? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: I would ask that that be marked the 22 next exhibit? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1594, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1594: Document Number 1004634. OPP
1061 Anticipated Evidence of Mark 2 Beauchesne, September 08, 3 1995. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And then at Tab 13 there's a -- I'll 7 come to that in a moment. Then on -- there's at the top 8 of page 16 in Exhibit P-1587, there's a reference, "peer 9 support" and what's that refer to? 10 A: I can't recall whether I -- I'm 11 assuming I must have been offered or met somebody from 12 peer support through the OPP but I can't recall who. 13 Q: Do you recall if it was Ian McGregor? 14 A: I can't recall who. 15 Q: And then: 16 "To command post, Forest re. meet..." 17 Some -- 18 A: "With -- with acting Staff Sergeant 19 Skinner." 20 And that's at 20 -- approximately 23:00 21 hours, I went to the CP at Forest. 22 And then after that, "10-8 to London", 23 departed to London and then went off-duty at 02:00 hours. 24 Q: And at the -- at Tab 13, there's a 25 copy of a statement -- excuse me, it's not yours.
1071 Now, on September the 9th and following, 2 can you just briefly tell us what you did in September. 3 Just -- you've got notes of September 9th and September 4 10th. 5 A: In summary, I came back on-duty and 6 deployed with other members in -- on -- in a shift 7 capacity on standby, in Forest, in the event that there 8 was a need to deploy TRU further in this occurrence. 9 Q: And there's a reference to, for 10 example page 15 at 2 -- 20:00 hours: 11 "To sheds on outskirts of Forest where 12 APC is kept." 13 A: Yes -- 14 Q: And that's an armoured personnel 15 carrier? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And what were you -- did you -- were 18 you assigned -- 19 A: Yeah, we were -- I was assigned at 20 part of the team that was going to deploy with the APC if 21 required, to assist at any of the checkpoints in case we 22 were somewhat desig -- we were designated as a bit -- as 23 a rescue vehicle, in the event that officers manning some 24 of the checkpoints took fire or needed assistance 25 quickly.
1081 Q: And so the APC was to be used as a 2 rescue vehicle? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And -- and you were assigned to 5 assist it? 6 A: Yeah, I was assigned as a member 7 aboard. 8 Q: And then at the top of page 17, 9 Sunday September 10th there's an entry at -- after: 10 "Off 10:00 hours." 11 Can you read that next entry? 12 A: "Location assignment, Ipperwash. 13 Charlie..." 14 I believe is the next which would be the 15 designation, I guess, we had at that time. 16 "Charlie with APC. 18:00 hours on. 17 10-8 to Forest." 18 Q: And what's that mean; "Charlie with 19 APC"? 20 A: Again, it's just a designator to sort 21 out which unit's which and I'm -- it looks like the unit 22 with the APC was designated as Charlie. 23 Q: Okay. And then I have a note that -- 24 there's a note that you're at ten (10) hours -- hundred 25 hours:
1091 "Off at Sarnia." 2 Did you move -- were you staying at Sarnia 3 at this point? 4 A: Yes. I'm not sure it's noted 5 anywhere, but I believe -- when we started our 6 deployments at Forest, that we had accommodations at a 7 hotel in Sarnia. 8 Q: Okay. And then there's a note: 9 "Information received from Chris Martin 10 that a..." 11 A: "Hit man is to kill a policeman. 12 Also advised not to rule out RPG 13 [rocket propelled grenade] in possible 14 possession of Natives." 15 Q: And who gave you that information? 16 A: Info received from Chris Martin. I 17 can't tell you who that was by. 18 Q: And then the subsequently on 19 September 11th and 12th, you were on-duty and I note that 20 there's a reference on September the 12th after 19:00 21 hours at page 19 of Exhibit 1587: 22 "Mercredi spoke with Harris who refused 23 to speak of Park. Threats against 24 Mercredi from traditional Natives 25 coming from Ottawa to take care of
1101 him." 2 What's that refer to? 3 A: This is from a briefing and just 4 information I was receiving from my briefing. 5 Q: And do you know who briefed you about 6 that? 7 A: Unless it's noted somewhere else, I - 8 - I really don't know. 9 Q: And then on September 13th, there's a 10 note, at page 20: 11 "Advised by Skinner and Wood that our 12 close involvement occupation was over. 13 Natives and Feds had an agreement. 14 Clean up equipment." 15 And -- 16 A: Yes, sir. "To CP, kit down." Yeah. 17 Q: And was -- what did that refer to? 18 Was that an agreement between the Feds and the occupiers 19 with respect to -- 20 A: It appears there was an agreement and 21 that -- I'm not sure what close involvement means here 22 because it does appear that we were still standing by. 23 Q: In fact you stood by -- 24 A: In Sarnia. 25 Q: You were on standby for the following
1111 number of days including in Forest for -- on the days 2 when the joint investigation was taking place on 3 September 18th and 19th? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And after September 1995, in the fall 6 of 1995, did you have any other involvement with the -- 7 with the Ipperwash area? 8 A: Ipperwash area, no. 9 Q: Now if I could ask you -- Constable 10 Beauchesne, I understand that after the events at 11 Ipperwash, you purchased a T-shirt? 12 A: I did. 13 Q: And can you tell us when you 14 purchased the T-shirt? 15 A: Not exactly, no. 16 Q: And the T-shirt that you purchased 17 was a T-shirt with the -- the logo that's on the screen, 18 and that's Exhibit P-1594. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Is that -- and that's the T-shirt 21 that has a TRU logo and the -- an ERT insig -- insignia 22 on it or letters on it for ERT? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And do you recall from who you 25 purchased that T-shirt?
1121 A: I can't recall, sir. 2 Q: Did you purchase it from Bill Klym? 3 A: I can't recall specifically who I 4 purchased it from. 5 Q: And did you see the T-shirt before 6 you -- you bought it? 7 A: I don't think I did. 8 Q: And why did you buy the T-shirt? 9 A: I bought it as a memento as a -- I 10 guess you could call it a souvenir of an event that we 11 were deployed at for a long period of time that had some 12 significance. 13 Q: And do you have other T-shirts? 14 A: I have other T-shirts. 15 Q: And when -- do you have -- did you -- 16 do you have any other T-shirts that relate to Ipperwash? 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: And did you see a T-shirt with the 19 logo, and this is a copy of Exhibit P-438, Commissioner, 20 with the logo Ipperwash, ERT, TRU and the white arrow on 21 its side? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I mean feather -- feather on its
1131 side, excuse me. 2 A: I -- I think I've seen that before, 3 maybe once or twice. I -- it's been a few years, but 4 yeah, I've seen that before. 5 Q: And did you purchase a T-shirt? 6 A: No, sir. 7 Q: This T-shirt? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And the other T-shirts that you have, 10 did they relate to other incidents that you were involved 11 in? 12 A: Probably the majority of T-shirts 13 that I own that would be along this line would be either 14 joint force's operations. I believe, I have -- I had one 15 that referred to a summit that I was not at, and then 16 other ones would be courses or a selection of course that 17 shirts were done up for. 18 Q: And when you say, "courses," there 19 were shirts done for the people who were attending the -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- course? 22 A: Like attendant's course -- course 23 shirts. 24 Q: And is there an official T-shirt of 25 the TRU Team?
1141 A: There is a T-shirt that is part of 2 our uniform. 3 Q: And does that have the TRU Team -- 4 TRU Team symbol on it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And do you have the T-shirt that you 7 bought now? 8 A: I do. 9 Q: And do you wear the T-shirt in 10 public? 11 A: I've never worn the T-shirt. 12 Q: And what did -- what do you do with 13 the T-shirt? 14 A: Like just about all of my souvenir T- 15 shirts, I put it on a shelf and there it sat. 16 Q: And the other T-shirt with the 17 feather on it, when you saw it was someone wearing that 18 T-shirt? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: And do you know if Kenneth Deane 21 purchased the T-shirt that you purchased, the one with 22 the logo in Exhibit P-1494 on it? 23 A: I don't know if he would have 24 purchased one, sir. 25 Q: Do you know if Constable O'Halloran
1151 purchased one? 2 A: I don't know of any other Member that 3 would have purchased it aside from myself. 4 Q: So you don't know if Strickler, 5 McCormack, or Kamerman purchased one? 6 A: No, I don't know. 7 Q: And now you said you still have the 8 T-shirt? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And when you got this T-shirt and you 11 looked at it, what did the logo signify to you? 12 A: Well, primarily, right off the bat, 13 it was the TRU Team and ERT, and TRU and ERT working 14 together, and I see the arrow as a symbol of a weapon or 15 violence and that we're dealing with the violence or 16 breaking the arrow. 17 Q: And so that the arrow, to you, 18 represented violence and -- and -- 19 A: A weapon or violence, yeah. 20 Q: And the -- would you not agree with 21 me that it would appear from this logo that TRU is 22 breaking the protestors against the anvil of ERT? 23 A: The arrow representing the 24 protestors? 25 Q: Yes.
1161 A: The violence or the -- the weaponry, 2 I guess, yes, the protestors, the violent protestors, 3 yes. 4 Q: And did you purchase a mug? 5 A: I did. 6 Q: And the mug that you purchased, can 7 you describe the logo on the mug? 8 A: I believe it had Project Maple on it 9 and '95 is possible there too. It had the OPP shoulder 10 flash and an arrow sticking through the shoulder flash. 11 Q: And so the mug that you had on the 12 screen is a copy of -- another copy of -- electronic copy 13 of P-438. The mug that you had, had the OPP logo 14 shoulder flash with the arrow through it? 15 A: Yes. And I think "Team Ipperwash" 16 was also on mine. 17 Q: On the -- on the -- 18 A: I think. 19 Q: -- the mug? And what happened to the 20 mug? 21 A: The mug got broken. 22 Q: And when did it get broken? 23 A: Last summer. 24 Q: All right. And the -- do you think 25 it appropriate to create memorabilia of an incident where
1171 someone died? 2 A: I think it would be inappropriate to 3 create memorabilia that would directly reflect on 4 somebody's death, directly relate to somebody dying, but 5 memorabilia in relation to an event or an occurrence, I 6 don't think is an uncommon thing. 7 Q: Now, you were involved in the 8 incident in Grassy Narrows in 1991; is that correct? 9 A: Yes, I was. 10 Q: And, in fact, you were deployed to 11 Grassy Narrows after the death of Sergeant Tom Cooper; is 12 that correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And at Grassy Narrows, as I 15 understand it, two (2) other police officers were 16 wounded; is that correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did you or anyone else in your 19 TRU Team create a T-shirt or other memorabilia to 20 commemorate your deployment at Grassy Narrows? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And would you agree with me that you 23 didn't do that because police officers had died and had 24 been injured? 25 Why wasn't it done there?
1181 A: I -- these things aren't created at 2 every event. I think Grassy Narrows was a -- was a short 3 term event; that may have been an aspect to it as well. 4 But to this day, I -- I bring up Grassy 5 Narrows every now and then as an event that I'm proud of 6 how we responded and the outcome. 7 But to say that -- if somebody had 8 produced a shirt, would I have bought it? Probably, 9 depending on how the shirt was depicted. 10 Q: And were you involved, personally, 11 ever, in producing this type of memorabilia, T-shirts, 12 mugs? 13 A: I was involved in selection T-shirts, 14 course T-shirts for our members. At least once I 15 designed one. 16 Q: When you were on a course? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. Now, after September 7th you 19 weren't at the Pinery, from what you've just told us. 20 You were -- you stayed at -- in Sarnia or somewhere else? 21 A: I believe so, yes. 22 Q: Did you ever see or hear about a beer 23 can with a feather on it? 24 A: I heard about a complaint in 25 reference to that.
1191 Q: And when did you hear about that? 2 A: I -- 3 Q: Did you ever see the beer can? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And you -- when did -- you heard 6 about a complaint about it? When did you hear -- 7 A: I heard either a complaint or there 8 was an investigation in relation to that object or an 9 object like that. 10 Q: Did you ever see an OPP cruiser with 11 a bull's eye and an arrow on it? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: Did you hear about that? 14 A: I heard about that. I bel -- well, I 15 know the beer can sticks in my mind to this day, but I, 16 you know, I'm not entirely sure I've -- I've heard about 17 both of them. 18 Q: And what about -- did you see any 19 cartoons at Pinery -- the Pinery Park that... 20 A: I didn't see any cartoons, but I -- I 21 believe that was part and parcel with the beer can thing 22 that was under investigation. 23 Q: And did you participate into -- in 24 that investigation? 25 A: I don't recall being questioned about
1201 it. I -- I don't believe we were there during that time 2 span but I -- I could be wrong. 3 Q: "There" being at Pinery? 4 A: Like during the period that they were 5 looking at that these items had appeared or... 6 Q: And did you work with Constables 7 Whitehead and Dyke during the period September 4th to 8 6th? 9 A: Pre -- pre the -- 10 Q: No, during the Ipperwash incident. 11 A: 4th to 6th, not directly, I don't 12 believe, no. 13 Q: Okay. Did you see any other 14 memorabilia that was created with respect to Ipperwash, 15 other than the two (2) T-shirts and the mug, do you 16 know -- 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: And before we close, what effect, if 19 any, did the events of the evening of September 6th have 20 on you? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: We're all sitting here today. I 25 guess it's been a -- it's been a long ten (10) years.
1211 It's been, as far as effect, it's -- no doubt it's -- 2 it's taught me a few things and we've learned a few 3 things and... 4 Q: Okay, thank you. Those are my 5 questions, Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much. 8 Anybody have any questions on cross- 9 examination of this officer? 10 Mr. Rosenthal...? 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: About forty-five 12 (45) minutes. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Rosenthal, about 14 forty-five (45) minutes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 16 Scullion...? 17 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thirty (30) minutes. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Scullion, thirty 19 (30) minutes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 21 Johnson...? 22 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Perhaps fifteen 23 (15) minutes. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Johnson, perhaps 25 fifteen (15) minutes.
1221 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 2 Mathai...? 3 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Twenty (20) to thirty 4 (30) minutes. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Mathai, twenty 6 (20) to thirty (30) minutes. And that adds up to just 7 under two (2) hours. 8 So what -- perhaps we could start the 9 cross-examination now and then we will call Constable 10 Irvine -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This 12 afternoon. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Sergeant Irvine 14 this afternoon after the cross-examination. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 Mr. Rosenthal...? 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: If I can't just 18 have a moment to relocate, Commissioner. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. Good 23 morning, Mr. Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 morning.
1231 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 3 Q: Good morning, Officer. My name is 4 Peter Rosenthal, I'm counsel for some of the Stoney Point 5 people of the name Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 6 Now I gather that throughout the evening 7 of September 6th, 1995 you didn't have any evidence, that 8 came to your direct attention, of any weapons by First 9 Nations people, other than sticks and stones. 10 A: I think my notes sort of summarize 11 that I use the word 'stick', but there were baseball bats 12 and other -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- objects, posts and stuff, but -- 15 Q: But in particular -- 16 A: -- fire brands, other things, but, 17 yes, as far as my direct observations those are the 18 things that -- 19 Q: Yes. And in particular there was no 20 evidence whatsoever, that you observed or heard, that 21 suggested firearms in the hands of the First Nations 22 people, correct? 23 A: That's correct, sir. 24 Q: And in particular there was no 25 evidence that you saw or heard that suggested that there
1241 were any Molotov cocktails that had been used by anybody 2 that evening? 3 A: I had no direct observations of that, 4 sir, no. 5 Q: No. The officers weren't using 6 Molotov cocktails, as far as a you saw, either, right? 7 A: No, sir. 8 Q: Molotov cocktail is a serious weapon. 9 It could take out a tank, right? 10 A: It can do a lot of damage, sir, yeah. 11 Q: And, in fact, you regarded it as your 12 prime duty that evening to observe, to see if there were 13 any firearms or incendiary devices, because you'd been 14 warned about that possibility, right? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And you were especially vigilant to 17 notice whether there were any firearms or incendiary 18 devices in the hands of any of the First Nations people, 19 right? 20 A: I was watching carefully for those 21 things, sir. 22 Q: And you'd be watching and listening 23 very closely too, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: For example, if you heard any sounds
1251 that might have been gunshots from a First Nations 2 person, you would turn your direct attention to that, 3 right? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And it would be your responsibility 6 to try and deal with any threat that that might 7 represent? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: That's -- 10 A: Yes, I'm sorry. 11 Q: -- you can't just shake your head, 12 sir. Thank you. 13 So as far as you could determine, all the 14 shots that were fired that evening came from police 15 officers? 16 A: Yes. As much as I can determine -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- I -- I heard shots and I -- I 19 assumed that the shots I was hearing from -- was from 20 police officers. 21 Q: Yes. And if there had been any that 22 you suspected might have been from First Nations people, 23 you would have turned your attention to that and try to 24 deal with the threat that that represented? 25 A: Yes. If I'd heard shots that
1261 appeared to come from a particular arc or area where I 2 felt that they were First Nations people, I -- I would 3 have keyed in on that. 4 Q: Now if you could please remove the 5 exhibit that was placed on top of the previous exhibit. 6 Thank you, sir. 7 And then we now have revealed again what 8 is now Exhibit P-1589 to these proceedings and was 9 Exhibit 30 at the Deane trial, evidently. And I just 10 wanted to understand a little bit more about where you 11 were observing from on that evening. 12 There's a number 1 and a number 2 and an 13 arc and I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand your 14 evidence as to -- and then -- then we also looked at a 15 photograph and you told us the hill on which you did most 16 of your observation. 17 Could you -- could you describe again 18 where you were standing for the bulk of this 19 confrontation and what you were observing as you stood 20 there, sir? 21 A: Well, on -- on approach I was on the 22 right hand flank of the Crowd Management Unit as it 23 entered the intersection of Army Camp Road and East 24 Parkway. 25 Q: Yes. So in other words, the -- what
1271 we now know as the southern portion of -- 2 A: South -- south edge of the east west 3 road. 4 Q: Yes. Yes. 5 A: As the Unit formed up and then did an 6 advance into the sandy area, I moved up -- maintaining 7 the right flank up onto a grassy hill. 8 Q: And -- and where is the grassy hill 9 on this Exhibit 1589 that you moved to? 10 A: As best as the diagram shows -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- it indicates a hydro pole right 13 about there, and there was a hill in that area. 14 Q: I see. And from that vantage point 15 you had -- you were elevated compared to most of the 16 surroundings; is that correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Which gave you a particularly good 19 view? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And that's the reason that you chose 22 that spot, I gather, because your responsibility was to 23 have as good a view as possible? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And so you stayed there for about how
1281 long, up until about what point in the confrontation, 2 sir? 3 A: On the initial advance the Crowd 4 Management Unit made it up to the -- the fence line of 5 the Park. 6 Q: I see. Yes? 7 A: And they stood, and a period of time 8 elapsed, I don't know if it was a minute, a couple of 9 minutes; probably not much more. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: And then they withdrew, and I 12 withdrew following their right flank as they pulled back. 13 Q: So then you would have moved to the 14 left of the diagram as we see it, in other words -- 15 A: Back. 16 Q: -- westerly? 17 A: Moved westerly along their southern 18 flank and just stayed with the unit as they pulled back 19 to the road. 20 Q: I see. Now before you did that 21 movement, you would have been looking in virtually all 22 directions from that perch on that hill; is that correct? 23 A: We divided up the arc. I know I had 24 scanned in -- in probably all directions at -- at any 25 given time, but mostly I was focussed on my front and
1291 left, as you're facing into the Park. 2 Q: And in particular, you would have 3 been focussed on the First Nations people that you 4 observed? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So then -- then you -- you went 7 further westerly with the Crowd Management Unit and then 8 went -- and during that period of time, again you would 9 have been scanning in various directions in order to try 10 to determine any threat that might have existed; is that 11 fair? 12 A: I guess just -- there was one (1) 13 more advance. When the Unit backed out the first time 14 some people came out of the Park. There was a second 15 advance. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: And -- and there was a -- a pitch 18 battle, somebody taken into custody. The Unit backed up 19 a second time to the road edge. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: And then it was after that that it 22 started withdrawing down the road. 23 Q: And that you followed them? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: But throughout that time, and as you
1301 followed them, you would continually be scanning, looking 2 for possible weapons in the hands of First Nations 3 people? 4 A: Yes, doing my best to assess -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- people and what they were 7 carrying, yes, sir. 8 Q: So then you went westerly and then -- 9 then you returned, I gather, to the sandy parking lot 10 area; is that correct? 11 A: I don't know if you're -- there were 12 two (2) advances. After the second advance and the 13 arrest, the Unit had pulled back and was taking a lot of 14 objects being thrown at it, and then it started 15 withdrawing down the road. 16 Q: Yes. Okay. And then -- 17 A: There was no further advances after 18 that. 19 Q: I see. And then the next major event 20 was the bus? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you've -- you've told us and I'm 23 not going to take you through the whole sequence of 24 events, you told us that you considered firing at the 25 bus, is that correct, but realized that that wouldn't be
1311 of any benefit and therefore didn't do so, right? 2 A: Yes, sir, I considered firing at the 3 driver. 4 Q: And then at the car you did actually 5 fire -- 6 A: I did. 7 Q: -- in an attempt to try to stop the 8 car from what you perceived was its very dangerous 9 advance on fellow officers? 10 A: I feared for the officers' lives, 11 yeah. 12 Q: Yes. Now... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: With respect to a person that you 17 earlier thought had a gun, and then realized that he 18 didn't have a gun, you didn't shoot that person, 19 obviously? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: And a good thing you didn't because 22 he was an unarmed person; not firearmed, at least, 23 person, right? It -- it wouldn't have been justified to 24 have shot that person, given that he just had a stick, 25 right?
1321 A: Absolutely. 2 Q: So -- 3 A: Under those circumstances. 4 Q: I'm sorry? 5 A: Under those circumstances,. 6 Q: Yes. Well, yeah, conceivably a stick 7 could be being used in a way that might be life- 8 threatening to someone and you might have to shoot -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- someone with a stick under some 11 other circumstances; that's what you were referring to? 12 A: Yes. Yeah. 13 Q: So it's very important, if you're an 14 officer who has the possible to employ lethal force, as 15 all officers do, but TRU team members particularly do, 16 one might say, to be very prudent in the exercise of that 17 possibility, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, you did not receive, I gather, 20 from Sergeant Deane, any information that he had seen any 21 muzzle flashes on that evening? 22 At -- at or about the time that he had 23 suggested he had seen it. 24 A: I don't recall receiving that 25 information around that time, no, sir.
1331 Q: Well you didn't receive it actually, 2 right? 3 A: I -- to -- from our exchanges, from 4 what I can recall, I didn't receive that information, no. 5 Q: Perhaps -- could we please look at 6 Tab 16, which is your evidence at the Deane trial, which 7 is now Exhibit P-1591 to these proceedings. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And page 160 of that transcript. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: You were asked, towards the bottom of 16 page 160: 17 "Okay. Do you recall any communication 18 from Sergeant Deane about muzzle 19 flashes?" 20 And your answer, on page 61 was: 21 "No." 22 All right? 23 A: I'm just going to read for a second, 24 sir. 25 Q: Certainly.
1341 A: It just -- just point me to the 2 correct line there? Is it in the top five (5) or -- 3 Q: Sorry, it's the very last question on 4 page 160. 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: "Q: Okay. Do you recall any 7 communication from Sergeant Deane about 8 muzzle flashes?" 9 And then the answer is on page 161: 10 "No." 11 A: Yes, sir. Yeah. 12 Q: So this was -- 13 A: Yeah. As I was saying today, I -- I 14 don't recall -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: -- receiving any information. 17 Q: But this evidence was given closer in 18 time to the actual events and -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- even at that time you did not 21 recall any such muzzle flash communication from Sergeant 22 Deane, right? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: So we can conclude that you did not - 25 - you probably did not receive such a communication from
1351 him, right? 2 A: At -- obviously, as the best of my 3 recollection back to 1997, yes, sir. It doesn't -- I 4 have no recollection of it and I didn't have any at the 5 time, so. 6 Q: Now, before you testified at the 7 Deane trial, you were presumably interviewed by Norman 8 Peel in preparation for your testimony; is that correct? 9 A: I was. 10 Q: And did Mr. Peel indicate to you that 11 it was important for the defence of Mr. Deane that there 12 be some evidence that he had reported someone as having a 13 gun? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: He didn't tell you that? 16 A: No, sir. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Now, this evidence about Mr. Deane 21 informing you that someone had a gun, you say you now, 22 upon reflection, are correcting your evidence given at 23 the Deane trial; is that right? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And upon reflection, you realize it
1361 wasn't at the time you had testified to in the Deane 2 trial. In fact, it was later, back at the TOC? 3 A: I believe it was later. Just 4 everything seems to be coming together that it makes more 5 sense that it occurred later, rather than right on the 6 road. 7 Q: And, in fact, you told us, if I 8 understood correctly, that part of what jogged your 9 memory in that respect was your realization that you had 10 had that conversation with him at a time when you and he 11 and perhaps other officers were trying to figure out who 12 had been wounded or seriously injured, and trying to 13 determine whether it was you who had caused that wound or 14 Sergeant Deane or someone else? 15 A: That is -- 16 Q: Is that your evidence? Is that -- 17 A: That is what I'm supposing was the 18 gist of why -- why that exchange, why -- the recollection 19 of the tidbit of information of, Well my guy dropped, 20 seems to connect with trying to sort out whether it was 21 the car driver, like, or somebody else that had sustained 22 serious or fatal injuries. 23 Q: Now, you testified at the very 24 beginning of your testimony yesterday, that when there is 25 a potential SIU investigation, ideally, you said,
1371 officers should be segregated, pending their interview by 2 SIU, right? 3 A: I'd have to look at the regulation, 4 but I -- I understand that the regulation -- it is 5 required or requested that officers do not -- that are 6 directly involved, would not communicate about the 7 event -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- prior to the interview, yes. 10 Q: And that's for obvious reasons that 11 you understand very well as a seasoned police officer, 12 right, that if there are several witnesses to an event, 13 you don't want them discussing their versions with each 14 other before you, as an investigator, get their 15 independent recollections as to what happened, right? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: Because it's recognized that, even 18 very innocently, people may change their version based on 19 what they hear from other people, right? 20 A: It's possible, sir. 21 Q: They could do that either maliciously 22 or innocently? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now were there any instructions from 25 any superior officers at this time, on the evening of
1381 September 6th, 1995, that officers should not discuss 2 these matters among themselves? 3 A: I don't have any recollection of 4 direction but I -- I was certainly under the impression 5 at the time that we would limit conversations about the - 6 - the direct event. 7 Q: Well you yourself certainly 8 understood your obligation in that respect? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And you would have hoped your fellow 11 officers would have understood their obligations in that 12 respect. 13 A: I don't -- yes. 14 Q: But nonetheless, you told us that you 15 were involved in a conversation with Ken Deane, trying to 16 figure out between you who -- whether it was your bullet 17 or Ken Deane's bullet that had caused the fatality or 18 serious injury. 19 A: I don't think it was -- it wasn't in 20 relation to whose bullet, it was in relation to the 21 injuries and I -- the line of questioning that I can 22 recall again, is that it was to whether the car driver 23 would have been the one that took the fatal wound, which 24 I was leaning toward, or somebody else. 25 And somewhere -- again, this is just bits
1391 and pieces that I've been thinking about, it just -- in 2 terms of trying to place where this might happened, and 3 it -- with -- with that addition of that, Well my guy 4 dropped, put it definitely not in the car, obviously, so. 5 Q: But the -- 6 A: And where that took place, sir, 7 again, I'm not ruling out the road but I'm more leaning 8 toward it occurred at the TOC, or a little later on in 9 the evening as information was coming out. 10 Q: There's nothing in your notes 11 reflecting that conversation with Ken Deane; is that 12 correct? 13 A: No, sir. No, sir. 14 Q: I would put it to you, if he had said 15 it to you on the roadway at least, it would have been 16 worthy of putting it in your notes. In reporting a 17 Native person with a gun who he had shot, was certainly 18 one of the most significant events of the evening of 19 September 6th, 1995, right? 20 A: There were a lot of significant 21 events that night and -- 22 Q: Yes, indeed. 23 A: -- I did up my notes, probably in a 24 bit of a selfish way, in terms of trying to account for 25 my actions, my observations, my behaviour, and it was
1401 lacking probably in -- in details like who communicated 2 what to me, at what time. 3 So there is -- there is an absence of -- 4 of notations that relate to maybe conversations that I 5 had, or briefings, et cetera. 6 Q: Well, if he had reported to you on 7 the roadway, as you originally testified in the Deane 8 trial, and you now are somewhat retracting, but if he had 9 done it originally on the roadway, I put it to you, sir, 10 you would have notified other people, too, that there was 11 a gun. 12 That would be the only evidence you would 13 have had of a gun in First Nations people's hands, and 14 you would have certainly taken that very seriously, would 15 you not, sir? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And you would have notified other 18 people that we have to investigate this right now. 19 There's a gun out there somewhere that was used, or 20 pointed at least, according to Ken Deane, by a First 21 Nations person, right? 22 A: Following the -- the chain of what I 23 believed at the time, this is getting reported to me or 24 notified to me by an officer that runs my element, that's 25 my superior. That would be his -- more his role in
1411 communicating out as to the urgency, as to whether it 2 needs to be communicated right now. 3 So I -- again the dynamics of the 4 situation is I wouldn't necessarily be the one saying, 5 I'll -- I'll tell everybody you saw it. If it needs to 6 be -- 7 Q: Well -- 8 A: -- reported you tell it. 9 Q: You would have at least said to him, 10 Hey, we better do something about this, right, to Officer 11 Deane if he told you right on the spot? 12 I would suggest to you what I'm putting to 13 you now, sir, is I would suggest to you further evidence 14 that your evidence today is correct that any conversation 15 you may have had with Deane was back at the TOC rather 16 than the evidence that you gave at the Deane trial 17 suggesting it was on the road. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 19 THE WITNESS: And that's where I've 20 already said. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: Yes. And I'm -- I'm offering you as 24 further support for that conclusion that you didn't have 25 this discussion on the road, that if you had had it on
1421 the road there would have been concern on your part and 2 on his part to find that gun that he allegedly reported, 3 right? 4 A: I'm sorry, I lost track for a second 5 there, sir. 6 Q: Sorry. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 8 Rosenthal, you're simply confirming what he's already 9 said. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. Do 12 we need to spend more time on this? You're confirming 13 what he's already said. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, okay, but then 15 he began to resile a bit -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I don't 17 think so. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But I'll take your 19 direction, Mr. Commissioner. I'll move on. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 21 so. I think he made the correction and we have his 22 evidence today. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: Now, not only, sir, did you speak to
1431 Ken Deane somewhere and you acknowledge that you also 2 discussed some of the events with Mr. Lacroix, right? 3 A: We were all together. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Yes, I think -- I think in the 6 totality of occurrences I've already mentioned that -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: -- we would have -- we would have 9 been speaking in general terms about the occurrence, yes. 10 Q: Did you instruct Lacroix or Deane or 11 anyone that it was your understanding that you should not 12 be having any conversations about the details until at 13 least after the SIU interviews had taken place? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: And did anyone raise that issue when 16 you were talking to them? 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: Now, with respect to Lacroix I gather 19 that with the benefit of the tape and refreshing your 20 evidence you would have been in a position in the room at 21 the time that he was seeking the information about the 22 autopsy, is that correct? 23 A: Probably. 24 Q: That's your conclusion? 25 A: Yeah, probably, yes.
1441 Q: And I understand that at the time the 2 officers in the room were in addition to seeking 3 information by telephone were watching television to try 4 to get any reports that there may be about what had 5 happened, is that correct? 6 A: Yeah, that sounds like that's what 7 was going on. 8 Q: Yes, and does that jar your memory, 9 sir, that you were one of several officers watching 10 television on -- on that evening trying to find out what 11 was being reported about the event? 12 A: I -- I have no direct recollection of 13 -- of that but it -- 14 Q: And it's -- 15 A: -- it certainly sounds like with the 16 -- with the conversation in there that I was in the room 17 watching TV from the sounds of, you know... 18 Q: Now, if you were a police officer 19 investigating an incident that had some notoriety and was 20 being reported in the press you would instruct any 21 witnesses, Please do not watch any television or read any 22 press until after I interview you, would you not? 23 A: Actually in a perfect world you might 24 ask a person not to taint themselves but I don't -- I -- 25 can't imagine giving that direction in this day and age.
1451 Q: You would -- you would at least 2 suggest that would you not for the same reason as before? 3 Speaking to anybody else or watching an account on 4 television could easily perturb one's own memory as to 5 what happened? 6 A: I -- I don't know what I would 7 suggest, sir. 8 Q: I see. So you don't see the same 9 danger in watching television as you do in speaking to 10 someone else? 11 A: Well, there's -- there's 12 contamination. There's time. There's -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- all kinds of reasons why people's 15 recollections might be affected. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: So television is one (1) of them. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: But just off the top I don't know if 20 I would caution a person not to watch TV. 21 Q: Okay. So let me phrase it 22 differently. You do recognize that watching television-- 23 A: You can go home to talk to your 24 spouse and -- and potentially there could be alterations. 25 Q: Yes. So you do recognize that
1461 watching television about an event could perturb a 2 potential witness' memory of that event? 3 Is that correct? 4 A: Yes, it could have that effect sir, 5 yes. 6 Q: But did anybody among the several 7 officers who were watching television that evening, raise 8 that concern? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: Now, with respect to -- specifically 11 to the requesting results of the autopsy, you understand 12 as an experienced police officer that an autopsy might 13 determine quite a lot or might determine not very much, 14 depending, about how something had happened, right? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: In particular, it could determine who 17 shot someone, right? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Could determine where the shooter was 20 standing relative to the person who was shot; right? 21 A: Yes, I'm assuming. 22 Q: Would you agree that it certainly 23 would be inappropriate for officers to try to determine 24 the results of the autopsy prior to the -- prior to their 25 giving statements to the SIU?
1471 A: It would be inappropriate, sir. 2 Q: You agree it was inappropriate? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And so if you take your mind back to 5 sitting in that hotel room, you would have recognized 6 that Officer Lacroix was doing that, would you not, sir? 7 A: I have no recollection of an exchange 8 of information in regard to that, the call or the require 9 -- or the call for autopsy information, sir, so... 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Commissioner, I 11 notice the time. I'm -- I have about fifteen/twenty 12 (15/20) minutes to go -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 14 should finish before lunch. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: We -- I could 16 finish before lunch or after lunch, I'm -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think 18 you should finish before lunch. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Okay, thank you. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: Now, sir, in respect to the T-shirt, 23 and perhaps -- sorry, I didn't warn you but if that -- if 24 the T-shirt with the arrow, P-1494 could be again 25 displayed, I'd appreciate it.
1481 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Thank you very much. Now, sir, 4 Officer Hebblethwaite testified, for example, that the 5 obvious interpretation although not necessarily his, of 6 that logo was that between TRU and ERT, they broke the 7 First Nations people. 8 Now, would you agree that that was an 9 obvious -- that's the obvious interpretation of the 10 meaning of that logo? 11 A: Sir, that's not my interpretation and 12 I don't agree with it, to tell you the truth. And -- 13 Q: You don't agree with -- 14 A: -- as far as -- 15 Q: -- that -- 16 A: -- my own personal opinion of it. 17 Q: Yes. You told us what your 18 interpretation was earlier. But would you agree that's 19 the obvious interpretation? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: No. I see. Would you say that your 22 interpretation -- 23 A: I don't think an arrow -- in my mind, 24 an arrow does not represent the First Nations people. 25 Q: I see.
1491 A: It's -- it's a symbol, but it's -- 2 it's... 3 Q: So, in your view, you told us, that 4 represents breaking a weapon by TRU and ERT? 5 A: I see an arrow at its face as 6 symbolic of a weapon and a Native weapon or an Indian 7 weapon, an arrow. 8 Q: Yes. As far as you know, there 9 weren't any arrows in the vicinity of the sandy parking 10 lot on September 6th, 1995 -- 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: -- were there, sir? 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: There was no allegation by anyone 15 that there were, was there? 16 A: Not that I have heard, no, sir. 17 Q: So, why would you interpret that as a 18 weapon as opposed to representing the First Nations 19 people, as we've had other interpretations? 20 A: Well, that's how I interpret it 21 because, I guess, a symbol's a symbol and the weapons 22 that were used probably wouldn't display as easily 23 between the two (2) logos. 24 I didn't design it but you could insert a 25 car or rocks or signposts in its place, but in my mind
1501 the symbolism represents weapons. 2 Q: Now, you said that you put that on 3 your shelf and as far as you recollect you haven't read - 4 - worn it at all? 5 A: I know I haven't worn it, sir. 6 Q: You know you haven't worn it? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: That's your general procedure with 9 respect to memento T-shirts is not to wear them at all? 10 A: Generally I don't, in my personal 11 time, wear clothing that identifies me as a policeman in 12 my off-duty time, unless I'm with fellow officers. 13 There's the odd shirt that I wear to work 14 out, et cetera. But there are shirts that I've never 15 worn, and this is one (1) of them. 16 Q: Now you told us that you did not 17 purchase the shirt with the arrow that was shown to you - 18 - sorry, the shirt with the feather that was shown to 19 you, the other shirt that we understand was produced, 20 right? 21 A: I don't know if I was ever offered 22 that shirt -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- to -- to purchase, sir. I have no 25 recollection that I was even offered --
1511 Q: Right. 2 A: -- to buy it. 3 Q: But you do recollect seeing it, you 4 told us? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And so you would have seen that being 7 worn by fellow officers then? 8 A: I can't say that for sure. I know 9 that there was an investigation -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- afterwards, and I'm not sure if I 12 saw an image on a memo, or elsewhere, or on TV since, but 13 I -- I can't recall directly having seen officers wear 14 it. 15 Q: Well, did you see some officers 16 wearing the T-shirt with this logo? 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: So you can't recall seeing any 19 officer wearing any T-shirt that was produced in response 20 to the Ipperwash situation? 21 A: Not that I can recall, sir, no. 22 Q: And were you asked about your 23 possession of a T-shirt by anyone prior to, say, May 12th 24 of this year? 25 A: No, sir.
1521 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, were there other T-shirts that 4 you saw, or were aware of, that were produced by OPP or 5 related to OPP officers from Ipperwash, besides these two 6 (2), the arrow and the feather? 7 A: Not that I'm aware of. 8 Q: You're not aware of any others? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Now you told us that you had a mug 11 and the mug appeared -- as you recollect, was consistent 12 with the pictures shown to you by Mr. Millar of the mug 13 that we've had pictures of; is that correct? 14 A: Yes, sir, a combination of the two 15 (2) images, I believe. 16 Q: And you said that that mug broke last 17 year? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: In ordinary use it broke -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- as mugs are wont to do? So that 22 you did use? 23 A: I did use the mug at home, yes, sir. 24 Q: Now did you see mugs elsewhere, other 25 than the one that you had?
1531 A: No. 2 Q: That's the only one you ever saw? 3 A: That's the only one I've ever seen. 4 Q: Now, the T-shirt, you told you don't 5 remember who sold it to you, but was it sold to you in 6 the Pinery Park, or in the Forest Detachment, or where? 7 A: I don't recall where -- where I 8 purchased the shirt. 9 Q: And what about the mug? 10 A: I think I bought that at Forest, but 11 I can't be sure. 12 Q: Now, at the time of September 6th, or 13 thereabouts, before the killing of Dudley George, were 14 you aware that the Premier had a special interest in what 15 was happening at Ipperwash Provincial Park? 16 A: Was I aware the Premier had an 17 interest of what happened? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: In a political sense, yes, I'm -- I 20 suppose I would have been aware the Premier would have -- 21 A: We've had some evidence that there 22 were communications to -- from -- especially from Officer 23 Lacroix but -- and other communications suggesting that 24 the Premier was taking a particular interest in what was 25 happening at the Ipperwash Provincial Park, after the
1541 occupation began on September 4th. Did you -- you had 2 some awareness of that interest? 3 A: I -- my awareness, I'm assuming, 4 would have been more related to news and/or -- like are 5 you talking pre -- pre-occupation of Ipperwash Park? 6 Q: No, I'm talking about -- 7 A: After the occupation? 8 Q: -- after the occupation but before 9 the shooting? 10 A: So for a day, like, basically -- 11 Q: Those several days, yes. 12 A: I -- nothing direct through -- I -- 13 I'm not sure what the question is. It would have been in 14 the news and... 15 Q: Well, were you aware that there had 16 been communications to OPP officers -- 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: -- to that effect? 19 A: No. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now you told us, in response to 24 questioning from Mr. Millar, to the effect, as I 25 understood it, that you could understand how at first the
1551 First Nations people might have thought that you might be 2 coming into the Park, but then the fact, in your view, 3 that the CMU had stopped at the fence, sort of suggested 4 to them that that was not the case. 5 Do you recall your evidence to that 6 effect, sir, this morning? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Now we have additional evidence, 9 however, that the First Nations people had been told, on 10 prior days, that they were regarded as trespassers in the 11 Park. 12 And we also have evidence that they were 13 aware in that evening of increased police activity, and 14 so on. 15 And would you agree that, given that 16 information, and given some forty (40) officers marching 17 down the road, it might well be reasonable for the First 18 Nations people to assume that, at some point or another 19 that evening, the officers were going to evict them from 20 the Park? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 22 Jones...? 23 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 24 object to this question. All it asks this Witness to do 25 is speculate.
1561 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: It might be possible 3 that these people might have had in their mind -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On whether 5 he knows -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: -- based on these 7 things that -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- what they 9 were thinking -- 10 MS. KAREN JONES: -- they might have 11 known. It doesn't help you at all to ask this officer to 12 speculate. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I agree with 14 that. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh, with respect, 16 Mr. Commissioner, I was following up on your Counsel's 17 question -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I know 19 that. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- of giving some 21 additional information that might well change his answer 22 to that question. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's too 24 speculative. It's not helpful at this point, Mr. 25 Rosenthal.
1571 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not 3 helpful -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- what he 6 thinks they thought -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Can I assume then, 8 Mr. Commissioner, that his answer to Mr. Millar's 9 question will also be regarded as not helpful, because I 10 must probe it if it is going to remain as something that 11 you might consider. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not all 13 that helpful, regardless of who asks it. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: Now, sir, we've had some indications 18 that at least some of the CMU officers, in reflecting on 19 this event afterward, questioned why it had been 20 necessary to march down the road that night. 21 Were you aware of such concerns, 22 afterward? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You would agree, would you not, sir, 25 that doing an operation, such as was done in the night,
1581 increases the danger, as opposed to doing something like 2 that in the day time when everyone can see better? 3 A: Working in daylight and darkness is a 4 balance. Depending on what your assignment or role is. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: I prefer to work in the dark, because 7 there's increased safety in deploying invisibly. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: I can counteract some of the 10 negatives of night with some of the equipment I have. I 11 -- I can't speak to what the CMU concerns were over the 12 movement. 13 Q: Yes. If you want to do surreptitious 14 observation of people, it's better to do it at night, 15 right, because you have the cover of darkness, right? 16 A: That's one of the -- the benefits, 17 yes, sir. 18 Q: But if you want to have a show of 19 force that will direct people, say, into the Park from 20 the sandy parking lot, that might be safer to do during 21 the day, right? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I guess it comes down to, it's not a
1591 decision of mine, it's -- 2 Q: No. 3 A: It's -- it's, you know, what -- what 4 is the urgency of the assignment -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- for -- to get down the road to -- 7 to deal with the problem. 8 Q: Yes, exactly. Now -- so you, 9 yourself, though, were not aware of any discussions about 10 such concerns about why it had been necessary to do it in 11 the dark, post- September 6th? 12 A: Post-September 6th? 13 Q: Yes. You were not aware of any 14 such -- 15 A: I think we've all -- 16 Q: -- concerns -- 17 A: -- wondered, on various things, 18 whether we could have had various equipment out there or 19 video cameras. I mean every -- you know, it's almost 20 tidbits thrown out in debrief fashion, but why did we go 21 up the road I think is the general term that -- I mean, 22 you can what -- it's a what if, in my mind. 23 Q: On that note, thank you very much, 24 Officer. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you,
1601 Mr. Rosenthal. 2 I think this would be a good point to take 3 a lunch break. 4 Mr. Scullion, we'll start with you right 5 after lunch. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 7 adjourned until 1.15. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 12:19 p.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 1:20 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed. Please be seated. 14 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Good afternoon, Mr. 15 Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 17 afternoon, Mr. Scullion. 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 20 Q: Good afternoon, Constable Beauchesne. 21 A: Good afternoon. 22 Q: My name is Kevin Scullion, I'm one 23 (1) of the counsel for the Residents of Aazhoodena. You 24 might know them better as the Stoney Point Group. 25 If I could turn you to Tab 5 of your book
1611 of documents? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And it's P-1587 for the record, Mr. 6 Commissioner. And my mistake, I meant Tab 3, sorry, 7 which are your notes from a February 1995 incident. Do 8 you have that before you? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Turn to page 3 of that tab, and the 11 lower half of the page starting with Forest Det, 12 presumably Detachment. I see you're referring to your 13 notes themselves, so maybe that'll help to read it 14 better. 15 Could you read that section for me, down 16 four (4) or five (5) lines? 17 A: "Forest Detachment. Myself and 18 Zupancic were told to do advanced recce 19 of site, escorted by First Nations 20 Chief Const. Myles [and I've got Miles 21 spelled a little differently there] and 22 driven by P/C McCormack." 23 Q: Okay. So I take it, then, at the 24 outset of your deployment, at what we've come to know as 25 the Daryl George incident at Kettle Point First Nation,
1621 you were asked to go with Officer -- Constable Zupancic 2 and do advance reconnaissance? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And is that a standard 5 protocol for TRU when they're called out? 6 A: Yes. Yeah, we try to get as much as 7 we can in advance. 8 Q: Okay. The fact, and I was listening 9 to your evidence this morning, the fact that that didn't 10 occur on the night of September the 6th, you weren't 11 asked to do advance reconnaissance before being deployed, 12 do I take it that that was a little unusual for TRU? 13 A: No. I think the situation in -- are 14 two (2) different ones there. During the period we're 15 staged, we don't know where we're going to be required. 16 When information came in that -- that an 17 incident had happened down Army Camp Road, our first 18 manoeuvre, it was to SOP, was having Sierra units pre- 19 deployed to try to get an eye on the area and a feel for 20 the ground and the situation. 21 So it -- it doesn't -- it would fall into 22 our general procedures. 23 Q: Okay. So what you've just referred 24 to, do I take is the next best option is when you're 25 deployed, to put somebody out front to do that kind of
1631 reconnaissance? 2 That's the next best option -- 3 A: Yes. Yeah, the -- of the area of 4 concern. And actually, we had done a -- a bit of a 5 reconnaissance the week before, as I mentioned in some of 6 my original evidence, that we'd gone down there and got a 7 lay of the roads and the TOC and stuff like that. 8 So we did what we could in advance of 9 Ipperwash as well. 10 Q: Right. Of the area in general, but 11 you'd agree with me that it had nothing to do with the 12 incident of September the 6th, and didn't give you an eye 13 on what was happening that evening? 14 A: No. No, we had to do that pretty 15 well as we went along. 16 Q: So it was, and I won't say seat of 17 the pants, but it was sort of as you go along you're 18 trying to get into position to get that kind of 19 observation, in order to get that type of reconnaissance, 20 and relay that back to the TOC; is that fair? 21 A: Yeah. It's as situation dictates, 22 and in this situation you couldn't -- you couldn't really 23 pre-deploy people down in there to keep an eye, prior to 24 assuming an event would occur. 25 It -- I think it -- the Sierra teams were
1641 -- were killing two (2) burrs -- birds with one (1) 2 stone, in that, ideally, they'd get down there and -- and 3 do the double job; observation -- 4 Q: Right. 5 A: -- reconnaissance. 6 Q: Ideally that would occur, but you'd 7 agree in this instance Sierra teams weren't actually able 8 to get into position in advance? 9 A: That's my understanding. 10 Q: Right. Was there a sense of urgency 11 to the deployment of TRU that night, and in particular, 12 your team and the Sierra teams, to get into position as 13 quickly as possible? 14 A: I don't want to mislead. It -- any 15 call that we're at, potential where there's firearms or a 16 threat there's -- there is a level of urgency to deploy 17 and to -- I -- I don't want to give you a non-answer, but 18 this one, we had to start doing stuff right away, and 19 that's not uncommon in calls. 20 So I don't feel that there was any 21 additional sense of urgency. 22 Q: Right. I take it there was a sense 23 of urgency, but you didn't see it as overly -- 24 A: Unusually so. 25 Q: All right. Now, in your -- in the
1651 notes that we've seen from -- sorry, your notes, you were 2 advised by Officer Zupancic, at one point in time, as 3 you're being briefed for this particular assignment, that 4 there was a clash between two (2) Native groups about the 5 handling of the Park. 6 Do you remember testifying about that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that came from your notes. I -- 9 I take it it was significant enough that you put it into 10 your notes? 11 A: Yeah, it was part of the information 12 I received at the outset, sir. 13 Q: Okay. Did you receive any other 14 information of any kind during this assignment, in 15 respect of that particular piece of information? 16 A: Not that I can remember. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And it -- I -- unless it's noted 19 further on. You're talking about the 6th, I'm assuming? 20 Q: I am. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Yeah, there's no note further in your 23 notes, and I take it that there was no further 24 information received regarding that particular piece of 25 information, the potential clash?
1661 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: Not that I can recall. 5 Q: Okay. Do you recall any preparations 6 being taken by TRU, or as part of the briefing that you 7 received, in order to deal with that potential, what's 8 referred to as potential clash between two (2) groups? 9 A: No. Not... 10 Q: I won't refer to it as a non-issue 11 but it's an issue that didn't crop up again after this 12 particular point of briefing? 13 A: Yeah. I wasn't aware of any -- 14 anything further for my personal responsibilities or what 15 my assignment was for the rest -- the rest of the 16 evening. It -- I had no awareness of obviously what 17 other steps were being taken to deal with, you know, 18 other areas. 19 Q: Okay. You did testify this morning 20 about part of your assignment was to provide security, 21 and the overall objective the CMU was to secure the 22 roadway. 23 Do you remember talking about that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Did you have any information or any
1671 briefing on what was going to occur with the area, once 2 it was secured and the CMU backed out to the TOC? 3 A: No. 4 Q: You had no idea how it was going to 5 continue to be secured after the CMU moved away. 6 Is that fair? 7 A: I wasn't made aware of what 8 commanders were considering. I guess it depended on what 9 we came up against and -- and our deployment at the time. 10 In my mind, I -- I was never briefed as to what that next 11 step would be, depending on -- it obviously hinged on the 12 situation down the road. 13 Q: Okay. But you weren't even given 14 options or alternatives that may be available -- 15 A: No assignment beyond escort, 16 security, and then whatever the CMU would have been 17 tasked with, if it was further tasked down the road, we 18 would have just accepted tasks as they were given out. 19 Q: Okay. Part of your deployment put 20 you ahead of the CMU, and if I recall correctly from this 21 morning, you were dropped off by one of the TRU vans 22 significantly head of where the -- the CMU was getting 23 ready to walk down the roadway; is that fair? 24 A: We went out ahead in one of our 25 vehicles, yes.
1681 Q: Okay. And presumably the purpose of 2 being ahead of the CMU was to give an advance or an eye 3 on the situation that you could then relay back to the 4 CMU, right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. You also testified that at 7 some point the CMU caught up to you, and that at that 8 point in time you took up a flank position. 9 You recall giving that evidence? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: Do I take it that your eye on the 12 situation was compromised somewhat, because you were now 13 moving along with the CMU down the roadway? 14 A: No. I -- well, I think that -- that 15 we had advanced and put our eye about as far down as the 16 road as -- as was required, up until the point that we 17 probably needed CMU, we needed to start working together. 18 From what I can recall, we were fairly 19 close to the Park, and as we -- we linked up, it wasn't 20 very much longer up the road that the sandy parking lot 21 opened up and -- and there were protestors there. 22 And at that point, I mean, for us to have 23 gone that much further without public order equipment, I 24 mean, and to run into people with sticks and clubs and -- 25 and rocks.
1691 I don't know if that answers your question 2 but I -- I think the marriage had to happen and it 3 happened about the point that I would -- even in 4 hindsight, that I would expect it to happen. 5 Q: I think you're anticipating where I'm 6 going a little bit, because my impression of why you're 7 trying to set up an eye is to determine whether or not 8 there are, in fact, people with sticks and rocks and 9 other objects that can cause some danger to both CMU and 10 yourselves if you went further along the roadway. 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: Is that the case? Am I correct? 13 A: Can you rephrase that, please. 14 Q: That -- that was why you were putting 15 the eye in front of the CMU, was to actually make the 16 determination whether or not there was a danger to 17 proceeding further. 18 A: Of firearms, primarily, yes, sir. 19 Q: Right. But part of what you would 20 also see, in looking for the firearms, is whether or not 21 people had these sticks and rocks. 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: Okay. At some point you took up a 24 position on what we've referred to as a sandy dune in the 25 south end of the parking lot.
1701 Remember testifying to that effect? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: At that point in time, I take it from 4 your evidence and your answers to Mr. Rosenthal and Mr. 5 Millar, you had a pretty good eye on the parking lot and 6 the part of the Provincial Park butting the fence line. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: It's a big area, but I was -- I was 10 observing that general area, yes. 11 Q: Okay. And you were looking for 12 weapons as well as anybody who was looking suspicious; is 13 that fair? 14 A: Yeah. I -- if -- if behaviour would 15 be an indicator, yes, sir. 16 Q: Right. I take it that's why you 17 used, at times, your flashlight on people, because you 18 wanted to see what they were up to? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. We've -- we've had some 21 questioning in this Inquiry about something referred to 22 as 'bunkers' right at -- almost right at the position 23 that you were on the sandy -- in the sandy parking lot on 24 that berm. And I wonder if Mr. Millar could help me just 25 to show...
1711 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And I'm -- I'm told that it's photo 4 619. And I'm told that this is in or about the general 5 area that you were positioned the night of September the 6 6th. Do you see the indent in the ground that you 7 referred to as a bunker? Do you see that in the picture? 8 A: I do. 9 Q: Did you see anything like that, 10 around your position the night of September the 6th? 11 A: I'm not entirely sure I'm oriented 12 right with this -- know exactly where this location is, 13 so I -- I can't -- I can't really give you a good answer. 14 Do we have a wider perspective or view of that area 15 or...? 16 Q: Let me go back to general then. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: I take it if you something that 19 looked like this in your vicinity, something cut out from 20 the ground that's been referred to as a bunker, that 21 would have been of note to you? You would have taken 22 note of that? 23 A: If I -- if it appeared to be, 24 obviously, a position where somebody could -- was 25 manufactured, constructed to hide and, you know, if it
1721 looked like a trench that it had been -- and I -- and I 2 could identify it and put two (2) and two (2) together 3 and go, Geez, that's -- somebody's dug a fox hole, I 4 better watch that area. 5 But I -- I've made -- I made no note or no 6 observation of something that was -- that occurred to me 7 that obviously that night. 8 Q: Right. And I appreciate that and 9 there is no note in your notes regarding anything 10 regarding a bunker or a fox hole. I trust that means you 11 didn't see anything that would be reflective of what we 12 see in the picture, or, as you've referred to, a fox hole 13 or a bunker? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. If I can turn you to Tab 10 of 16 your documents. Again we're -- we're looking at the 17 notes of Constable Zupancic. But at page 2, at the 18 timeframe 22:30, there's a note in there that says: 19 "Alpha will subdue." 20 Do you recall any words to that effect 21 being relayed across the TRU radio, or to you 22 specifically? 23 A: As far as specific radio 24 communications, I can't recall. 25 Q: Okay. Was that something that came
1731 to mind to you or to others that you've talked about this 2 evening, that at some point Alpha may be required to 3 subdue somebody? 4 A: I think when we were out -- from what 5 -- from what I can recall, when we were out there 6 assessing these males coming towards us, it was an option 7 that we were potentially going to employ if they had got 8 too close, or we were revealed, or we had the opportunity 9 we were going to try to detain them. 10 Q: So you come out of this invisible 11 deployment for the purpose of detaining somebody that got 12 close enough? 13 A: Yeah. If they wandered our way we'd 14 try to detain them. 15 Q: Okay. Now, if I can turn your 16 attention to the evidence that you gave regarding the car 17 in the roadway. 18 Do you recall giving testimony about that 19 this morning and a little bit in response to Mr. 20 Rosenthal's questions? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Okay. From what I understood from 23 your evidence, you had your eyes on that car from the 24 moment that it appeared to be a threat to the officers on 25 the roadway, all the way until it backed out of sight; is
1741 that fair? 2 A: I feel I did. 3 Q: Okay. Because it was an important 4 thing to keep an eye on, because it represented a threat 5 to the officers, correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. So you had your eye on the car 8 all the way up until it drove into the officers on the 9 north side of the road, and as it backed out, stopped, 10 and then backed into the Park, correct? 11 A: I -- I think human nature, I would be 12 looking away at officers perhaps sprawled, but you can 13 say I pretty well tracked that vehicle -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- almost exclusively, yeah. 16 Q: Okay. You -- I think your words in 17 your evidence was you were locked on the vehicle. 18 A: Hmm hmm. When it came to a stop in 19 the middle of the road and it was decision point, I know 20 I was really watching the car very carefully. 21 Q: Right. I trust you were really 22 watching it as soon as it veered into the officers on the 23 north side, as well? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Was there anything in your
1751 way, vehicles, officers or otherwise, that was hampering 2 your view of this vehicle? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right. And I take it that the 5 lighting was sufficient, at least from your perspective, 6 to view this car? 7 And I -- I take that a step further; you 8 didn't need -- feel the need to turn on the light that 9 you had on your weapon? 10 A: I don't think it occurred to me at 11 that moment, to tell you the truth, whether more light -- 12 whether it would have made sense. It just didn't occur 13 to me at the moment to light it up. 14 Q: All right. I take it it would have 15 occurred to you if you didn't have a view of the vehicle? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: Is that a yes? 18 A: Well, I think I was in a bit of shock 19 and dismay and -- and I'm watching the car. You know, 20 today there's a -- yeah, I might have light -- lit it up 21 if I thought about it, but obviously I was, as you say, I 22 was watching it closely enough that I -- for what I was 23 thinking I might have to do, I felt I could do it -- do 24 it without a light. 25 Q: Right. And you were able to see it
1761 to the extent that you knew it was a car, you knew there 2 was a driver, you could see the silhouette of the driver, 3 you were aware of the officers at the front of the car. 4 You were able to see all of that clear 5 enough that you didn't need to put on your light, 6 correct? 7 A: Again, I -- I just don't think it 8 occurred to me. 9 Q: I'm not being critical -- 10 A: There was enough -- no, I -- there 11 was enough to say that I, you know, that shadows, forms, 12 the colour of the car, you know, there's a lot that a 13 light would have benefited me, and in hindsight, I 14 probably would have used it, but at the time, I just 15 don't think I had the time or I considered it for the -- 16 the moment that I was watching the vehicle, so. 17 Q: Okay. We've -- sorry, you've given 18 evidence that you were at about a 45 degree angle with 19 the driver's door, both this morning and in other areas 20 where you've testified regarding this event. 21 A: Roughly -- 22 Q: Is that -- 23 A: Roughly, yeah. 24 Q: Roughly. You had a good view of the 25 driver's door, but you were viewing it from the back, to
1771 an extent, of the vehicle, as opposed to the front? 2 Is that the 45 degrees we're talking 3 about? 4 A: No. More off the front 45 degrees, 5 as opposed to the back. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: I'm just trying to reconcile a couple 10 of things here. And -- and you had in your notes -- just 11 give me a moment to find them, Mr. Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 17 Q: At Tab 12, which is P-1594, for the 18 record, it's your interview. At page 12... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Do you have that before you? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And at the top of the page there's 25 questions from, I think it's Officer Wilson, and he says:
1781 "In relation to the vehicle, the 2 car..." 3 Your response: 4 "I believe I was about 20 metres away." 5 His question: 6 "To the front of it, to the side?" 7 And your answer: 8 "It would have been on about a 45 9 degree angle, probably with exposure of 10 a little bit towards the flat side of 11 the car, than the front." 12 His question: 13 "The driver's?" 14 And your answer: 15 "The driver's side of the car, yes. 16 The driver's door. If you clock rate 17 [presumably that's 'right']. If you 18 use a number system around the car with 19 the nose of the car being six o'clock, 20 I was at about 4 o'clock, I believe, to 21 the car looking from that angle." 22 Do you see that answer? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And then there's a little diagram 25 above or beside that description. Is that of any
1791 assistance -- 2 A: That's not my diagram, so. 3 Q: That's not? All right. Was that a - 4 - was that drawn at any point in time while you were -- 5 A: I don't recall him drawing a diagram 6 when I was describing it. 7 Q: All right. So it's not your diagram; 8 it's put on after the fact. Does it reflect your 9 evidence regarding this six o'clock/four o'clock number 10 system that you used? 11 A: Yeah. I'm describing the six (6) as 12 the nose and the flat side of the car primarily, the nose 13 of the car being where my watch is. And I'm off at about 14 four o'clock, three (3), four (4), five (5), and six (6) 15 being the nose, so -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- off the front. 18 Q: I take it you were in good position 19 so that if there was anything of note in the driver's 20 window you would have been able to see it from where you 21 were. 22 A: It was dark. My recollection today 23 is silhouettes and I was not able to identify the colour 24 of the car, though I believed it to be dark, and I've 25 said that in some of my evidence. The lighting was not
1801 ideal. 2 I'd like to believe I would have seen 3 something out the window but I can't say that -- for sure 4 that I wouldn't have missed something either. 5 Q: Right. Well, let me suggest to you 6 that we've heard evidence from one of the officers that a 7 12 to 15 inch muzzle flash from a shotgun game out of the 8 driver's door or the vehicle before it backed away into 9 the Park. 10 I trust you wouldn't have missed something 11 like that coming out of the driver's door. 12 A: A 12 to 15 inch muzzle flash, if I 13 was staring at the driver's door I'd like to believe I 14 wouldn't have missed it. 15 Q: Right. Well, he also said it was a 16 loud thunderous bang consistent with a shotgun. I expect 17 that if you had heard the bang you would have made a note 18 of that as well. 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: All right. And there is no note of a 21 muzzle flash, there's no note of a bang? 22 A: No. 23 Q: We take it that you did not see 24 anything of that nature while looking -- 25 A: And I've testified to that, sir.
1811 Q: Okay. A question that wasn't asked, 2 and I've been asked to ask it from other counsel, is when 3 you shot or when you fired your weapon, you've testified 4 at one (1) of the trials along the way or one (1) of your 5 interviews that you saw sparks, and I didn't hear that 6 this morning. 7 Is that still your recollection, that you 8 were able to see sparks from the gunshots that you took? 9 A: I made the notation and I believe 10 there was sparking on the car at the instance that I was 11 making my shots, that indicated where my rounds -- where 12 I felt my rounds were hitting. 13 Q: Right. And it was your impression at 14 that particular point in time and it remains your 15 impression that those sparks were the result of your 16 gunfire at the vehicle. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And you had a -- a weapon that 19 could have -- I'm not saying that it did but it could 20 have -- penetrated the door of that vehicle, correct? 21 A: Yes, it could have. 22 Q: Right. So from your perspective it 23 wasn't all that important of you trying to shoot through 24 the window as opposed to the door, your weapon could have 25 disabled the driver if it hit either of those two (2)
1821 areas. 2 A: I wasn't -- you're right. I wasn't 3 too concerned exactly with whether I placed my shot 4 through the window or door. They were quick shots, more 5 instinctive. 6 Q: And you wouldn't have taken those 7 shots if there was any officer anywhere close to where 8 you were shooting; is that fair? 9 A: If I felt that I couldn't make those 10 shots, I wouldn't have made them. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: If there was an officer in the way or 13 I felt I couldn't safely make the shots, I wouldn't. 14 You're right. 15 Q: Right. Well, a little bit more 16 particular, does that mean -- 17 A: I didn't see anybody nearby that -- 18 between me and the car that I had a concern about. I 19 have no -- I don't believe I saw anybody up near the car 20 when I made my shots. 21 Q: All right. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Now, you have testified to an extent
1831 about protocols for TRU and your habit of taking notes. 2 You remember testifying about that, that 3 you take them as soon as -- or you put them to paper as 4 soon as practical? 5 A: Hmm hmm. Yes, sir. 6 Q: Yes. And you recall Mr. Rosenthal's 7 line of questioning that there's a possibility that your 8 recollection of the events can be contaminated if you 9 engage in discussion with other officers about the event 10 that occurred. 11 Do you remember that line of questions? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You've testified to Mr. Millar this 14 morning that before you -- before you put pen to paper 15 for your notes you not only met with Norm Peel, your 16 lawyer, but you also met with Staff Sergeant Lacroix and 17 others. 18 You also were in a vehicle on the way to 19 meeting with Mr. Peel and on the way back, as well as 20 having dinner with various members of your group, at 21 which point there were discussions, although you can't 22 recall how detailed they became regarding this incident. 23 Do you recall giving that kind of 24 evidence? 25 A: Yes, sir.
1841 Q: And despite knowing that there was a 2 possibility of this contamination and despite taking part 3 in all of these discussions before putting pen to paper 4 you waited until the evening of September the 7th before 5 you did you notes of this event, correct? 6 A: Yes. Yeah. That was what I deemed 7 to be my first opportunity. 8 Q: Well, your first opportunity could 9 have occurred at any point earlier than that, you simply 10 chose not -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- to put pen to paper until later on 13 in the evening, September the 7th, correct? 14 A: Yeah. I knew I needed a chunk of 15 time to sit down to do up my notes properly. So the 16 evening -- when the evening came and things had settled 17 down that's when I chose to sit down and -- and quietly 18 do up my notes. 19 Q: But you'd agree with me that you 20 could have if you chose to do these notes before you ever 21 talked about the incident with any of your fellow 22 officers or met with the lawyer on September the 7th, 23 correct? 24 A: If I dropped everything and 25 immediately sat down and did them up, but that was not
1851 the way the opportunity presented itself. I got up; we 2 had a meeting planned; I had a meeting to go to; we went 3 together; we had the meeting; we're still together. 4 If -- if that -- if I put that job 1, but 5 I -- I can't to this day tell you or the Court why it was 6 most convenient to wait or it was what, you know, my 7 sequence of my day as to why that became the -- the 8 earliest opportunity. 9 Q: All right. You appreciate I'm giving 10 you the opportunity right now to explain that? You 11 just -- 12 A: Yeah. And I -- and I did my notes 13 when I did my notes and when I felt I could do them, so. 14 Q: You were asked about a phone call 15 that was made by Staff Sergeant Lacroix and you 16 identified yourself in the background as making one (1) 17 or more comments along with other members of the TRU 18 Team. Do you remember that? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: All right. Can you tell me what the 21 atmosphere was with that group when that phone call was 22 being made? 23 A: Are you asking me to speculate on 24 what I hear or what I recall because I don't recall that 25 gathering, so I can't speculate or answer your question
1861 as to what the atmosphere was. 2 Q: Right. I don't want you to guess at 3 anything. If you don't -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- recall that gathering at all then 6 I don't want you to guess as to the atmosphere. 7 A: My voice places me there, I believe 8 it places me there. Wade Lacroix's notes place me there. 9 I am assuming I was there. And I've heard some of the 10 comments on the tape so -- but -- 11 Q: All right. But you don't recall the 12 gathering and therefore you're not going to be able to 13 speculate as to what -- 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: -- the atmosphere was? You were 16 shown pictures of a T-shirt that had a certain emblem on 17 it and you testified as to what the significance of that 18 emblem was to you. 19 Do you remember testifying about that? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: Let me go one (1) step further and 22 ask whether or not you viewed this operation and did you 23 view the emblem as representative of this operation 24 having been a success as against the violent occupiers? 25 A: No.
1871 Q: Those are all my questions, Mr. 2 Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Scullion. 5 Ms. Johnson...? 6 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I've no questions. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No 8 questions. Thank you. 9 Mr. Mathai...? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Sorry, Mr. Scullion's 14 a lot taller than I am. I'll lower that a bit. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 19 Q: Good afternoon, Constable Beauchesne. 20 A: Good afternoon. 21 Q: My name is Sunil Mathai, I'm one (1) 22 of the lawyers who represent Aboriginal Legal Services of 23 Toronto and I have a few questions to ask you today and 24 hopefully again it won't take that much of your time. 25 Now, we've already your evidence both in
1881 direct and cross-examination that on February 26th of 2 1995 you attended at the Kettle and Stony Point Reserve 3 to deal with what has been referred to as the -- the 4 Darryl George incident? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Okay. And from what I understand you 7 were called in to do reconnaissance and eventually you 8 were used as part of the containment team? 9 A: Containment or arrest, I -- yes. 10 Q: And at the time you became aware that 11 the suspect, Mr. George, was gearing up for a 12 confrontation with officers? 13 A: I'd have to refresh. 14 Q: Okay. If you want to turn to Tab 3, 15 which is Exhibit P-1587. If you turn three (3) pages in. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And if you see at the beginning 20 there, at the top portion, if you read down -- can you 21 read that there. It's just the handwriting's not clear on 22 my copy. 23 A: "Kettle Point Indian Reserve. 24 Apparently George found out that there 25 was an arrest warrant for him and
1891 called police approximately 22:00 hours 2 on 26th Feb. and said to them he 3 expected them to come at 4:00 a.m. and 4 that they'd get a fight." 5 Q: Do you recall who gave you that 6 information? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: It appears at the top of that 11 notation on the previous page that Sergeant Skinner 12 briefed us, and that was part of the briefing 13 information. 14 Q: And do you recall whether or not 15 those statements were taken seriously? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Well, we were there, so I think they 20 were expecting a fight. 21 Q: So there was some concern for the 22 officers' safety, and I imagine, for the safety of Mr. 23 George as well? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And at some point Mr. George asks to
1901 speak to a First Nations officer, correct? 2 A: Is that in my notes, sir, because 3 maybe you can help me out, because I -- 4 Q: Yes, it is actually. It's at Tab 3, 5 five (5) pages in. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: You'll see right at the bottom, it's 10 the first hyphen that you have before 023:00 (sic) hours. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: What -- can you see the page on my 15 notes for that? 16 Q: I can't see the page on the notes, 17 which is why I'm going by one (1), two (2), three (3) -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Seventy-three (73) 19 upside down, I think. 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 25 Q: 07 -- oh, so -- 7:23. It's the
1911 hyphen right above 07:23. 2 A: Oh, I see what I've done. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Yes. 7 "Suspect uncooperative. Wishes to 8 speak to Native constable." 9 Yes, sir. 10 Q: And were -- First Nations officers 11 were actually called to the scene, correct? 12 A: That's my impression that they were 13 called up. 14 Q: And at the time, do you recall any 15 conversations amongst members of the OPP that you were 16 part of or that you heard on whether or not a First 17 Nation officer would be appropriate to bring in to this 18 situation? 19 A: I have no recollection of -- of the 20 details of the call at this point, unless it's noted. 21 Q: It's not noted in your notes which is 22 why I'm asking whether or not do you recall any of those 23 discussions or if there were the -- discussions? 24 A: These are -- those discussions would 25 probably be at the Command Post or TOC level.
1921 Q: Okay. And from my understanding of 2 the event, the First Nation officer was able to signet -- 3 successfully bring out Mr. George? 4 A: Yeah. It -- it resolved itself. 5 Q: When you say you -- "resolved 6 itself", it's because the First Nation officer went into 7 the house, as you note, spoke to him face to face, and 8 then was able to bring him out, correct? 9 A: Well, yes, and just speak to the 10 actions. It -- it -- I know I was caught off guard, so 11 either it was miscommunicated or it was not part of the 12 plan that a cruiser would drive right into the inner 13 perimeter -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- and up the driveway and establish 16 direct communications with a person that -- that 17 potentially could -- could cause them serious bodily harm 18 or death if he had a firearm. 19 So, that surprised me and it resolved 20 itself, thank God. I was happy. But it's not normally 21 part of our routine that you would put people out there 22 in front, because what -- what happens is if there is a 23 confrontation it puts everybody at risk including the 24 suspect in -- in your actions that you have to respond 25 to.
1931 Q: And -- and that's fair. But you 2 would agree then it was unusual, and you would agree that 3 it was unusual that given what happened, that the car 4 drove up, right up to the house and they spoke, that the 5 fact that it was resolved peacefully you think is unusual 6 as well? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No? 9 A: It's a flip of the coin. And you 10 might get away with that ninety-nine (99) times out of a 11 hundred (100) no problem, but we try not to add any 12 unnecessary risk -- 13 Q: And do you think it would have been-- 14 A: -- at these calls. 15 Q: -- as successful if it wasn't a First 16 Nations officer who went up to the front? 17 I'm just asking for your opinion. 18 A: Any rapport that you can get with a - 19 - a party, whatever will bring them out peacefully is 20 great. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: Whether it's a First Nations officer 23 or a non First Nations officer doesn't -- there's other 24 ways to go about it and those are the ways that we 25 practice to make contact yet maintain enough security
1941 that we're not needlessly exposing people, First Nations 2 officers or non First Nations officers, to a risk, you 3 know, unless it's absolutely critical. 4 Q: Okay. And you speak to this notion 5 of having a good rapport with the suspect, and -- and I 6 imagine in this case because it was a First Nations 7 suspect that you were dealing with, having a First 8 Nations officer assist in -- in that good rapport that 9 you speak of, correct? 10 A: Yes. They can be very -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- have a lot of -- 13 Q: So the use of the First Nation 14 officer in that very serious, very dangerous situation 15 helped considerably, correct? 16 A: It -- the call was resolved. Whether 17 the suspect came out because it was a First Nations 18 officer that he recognized, that may have -- that may 19 have assisted in the resolution. 20 Q: And resolved without any killing or - 21 - sorry, with anybody dying? 22 A: Absolutely. 23 Q: Okay. I want to switch to another 24 issue here. 25 The night of September 6th, after the
1951 incident at the sandy parking lot, you then returned back 2 to the TOC site, correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And at that point you spoke to Acting 5 Staff Sergeant Skinner? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And you told him at that point 8 that you had shot your gun? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And in that conversation -- 11 or, sorry, at that time, not in that conversation -- at 12 that time you knew that there would be an investigation 13 into this matter? 14 A: Yes. I would -- yes. 15 Q: Okay. And how did you know that 16 there would be an investigation? 17 A: Well, I've discharged my firearm; 18 there's been quite a confrontation event down the way. 19 I'm assuming that potentially somebody got hurt and there 20 will be an investigation. 21 Q: Now, I've read over your testimony at 22 the Deane trial and at the time you said that the -- you 23 believed that the investigation was going to be very 24 comprehensive. I can turn you if you want to that point, 25 but do you still that -- believe that to be the case,
1961 that on September 6th you thought that there would be an 2 investigation and that it would be very comprehensive? 3 A: Could I see the -- the tab, please. 4 Q: Sure. It's Tab 16, which I believe 5 is marked as P-1591. And it would be at page 122. And 6 it's the second question, I believe. 7 Sorry. It's 122. At it's actually the 8 one (1), two (2), three (3), fourth question. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The one's that's 10 objected to? 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Yes, sir, that's a question -- 15 Q: I understand it's object -- 16 A: -- that's posed to me. 17 Q: -- it's objected to. I -- 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Well -- 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 21 Q: Do you believe -- 22 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry. Mr. 23 Commissioner, I object because it's not even that it's 24 objected to, it's that there was never any answer to the 25 question. The question was put to this officer, there's
1971 a series of questions about: 2 "First of all, did you know a special 3 investigation unit would come in 4 because there had been a shooting. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. I take it from your training 7 experience you knew the Special 8 Investigation Unit was a unit that is 9 independent of the OPP. 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. I take it you knew by experience 12 there would be an investigation done 13 that would be very comprehensive and 14 joint with the OPP." 15 And at this point in time Counsel objected 16 and said: 17 "I don't mind My Friend leading but 18 this is going a little far on this 19 point." 20 And so to put to this Witness that somehow 21 he said at the trial that -- that he knew there would be 22 a comprehensive investigation is simply not accurate. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there 24 anything to -- 25 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: I'll rephrase the
1981 question. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 3 think -- 4 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: But I'm not sure if an 5 objection like that is necessary -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 7 think -- 8 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- where we have to 9 read in the entire page. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 11 whether or not it is, is up to me to decide. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If it's long, it's 14 long. 15 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: And that's fair -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Please, 17 Mr. -- 18 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- but the Witness has 19 given the statement, the Witness can review -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Please. 21 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- the statement and-- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, no, no. Sorry, 23 Mr. Commissioner -- 24 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Nevertheless I will 25 rephrase the question.
1991 MS. KAREN JONES: -- he starts off -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 3 minute. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: -- by putting a 5 proposition and then Witness says, Well, let me see what 6 it says. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: And it is not an 9 accurate representation of what's in the transcript. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 11 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: And I will rephrase 12 the question. I apologize for putting it that -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 14 you're offering to rephrase it, Mr. Mathai. 15 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Yeah. I will. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But it's important -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- that Counsel, -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- when they say that 21 there's evidence make it an accurate statement. 22 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Sure. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: This Witness did not 24 even answer this question -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
2001 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- as Ms. Jones has 2 pointed out. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's been 4 pointed out. 5 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: I apologize for that 6 and I will -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 8 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- rephrase the 9 question. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Thank 11 you. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 14 Q: At the time you knew there was going 15 to be an investigation, correct? 16 A: I assumed so, yes, sir. 17 Q: And did you think it would be very 18 comprehensive? 19 A: I guess it depends on the results of 20 the situation, what had happened. 21 Q: Now, you did know amongst other 22 things that it would -- the investigation would involve 23 seizing your weapon, correct? 24 A: I considered that, yes, sir. 25 Q: And it would probably involve, as
2011 well, an interview? 2 A: You're asking when I thought that -- 3 yeah, ultimately an investigation probably will involve 4 an interview, yes. 5 Q: And that would involve taking a 6 statement? 7 A: Yes, potentially. 8 Q: Sorry, I'm having binder difficulties 9 here so I'm just going to... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Okay. And in fact as part of the 14 investigation you did actually give up your firearm at I 15 think it was 2:00 a.m. on September 7th to then-Inspector 16 Linton? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Now, you prepared your notes, I 19 understand, the evening of September 7th? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And that was as -- as Mr. Scullion 22 has already gone over with you that was after you spoke 23 to Skinner, Acting Sergeant Skinner, sorry? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 25 Scullion's already gone over this. You pointed that out.
2021 You don't have to go over it again. 2 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Fair enough. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 5 Q: So you prepared your notes after 6 speaking to numerous individuals including Acting 7 Sergeant Skinner -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 11 Q: -- Mr. Ken Deane and including your 12 lawyer, correct? 13 A: Yes, I debriefed my actions to Acting 14 Staff Sergeant Skinner right after the fact as is 15 required. I made a report to him verbally -- 16 Q: Okay. Now -- 17 A: -- and then we -- we've gone through 18 the next of the call and the next day, yes, sir. 19 Q: Now, if you knew there was going to 20 be an investigation which would include an interview, 21 giving up your weapon, and taking of the statements, why 22 is it that you prepared your notes on September 7th prior 23 to this interview? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's already 25 answered these questions, Mr. Mathai. It doesn't help to
2031 go over them again. He's answered these questions for 2 another Counsel. 3 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Mr. Commissioner, if 4 you can give me some leeway I'm going into something a 5 little bit different than what My Friends have already 6 touched on. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So far you 8 haven't. If you're going into something different then 9 fine. 10 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Well, and that's -- 11 and that's fair, Mr. Commissioner, -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 13 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- but I'm entitled to 14 -- to lead into a bit and build a foundation necessary 15 for it. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 17 estimated that you would be twenty (20) minutes; you've 18 been fifteen (15). I haven't seen anything new yet, so 19 just keep that in mind. 20 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Okay. Sorry. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 23 Q: The same question that I asked you, 24 Mr. -- Constable. 25 If you knew that there was going to be an
2041 investigation, you knew you were going to give a 2 statement, and you knew you would be handing in your 3 weapon, why is it that you prepared your notes on 4 September 7th prior to giving that statement. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I believe 7 that's the question that he has answered. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He's answered that and 9 -- and you can't roll it up. He -- he gave his -- he 10 said he spoke to Acting Sergeant Skinner after the 11 incident, he turned over his weapon at two o'clock on the 12 morning of September the 6th. He was then on-duty. 13 He's -- if -- this question I think I 14 asked the question, Mr. Scullion asked the question. 15 Repetition of the same questions isn't helpful. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not 17 helpful, Mr. Mathai, so I would ask you to please move 18 on. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 21 Q: Okay. I'm just going to go a little 22 further and I'll be really quickly. 23 You knew at the time you were preparing 24 the notes that you would be giving a statement later 25 because you hadn't at the time given the statement,
2051 correct? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, how 4 is this a little different? This is just going -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: -- over his evidence 7 again and again. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I think 9 I've got to give him that much leeway. He did prepare 10 his notes before -- 11 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Prior to the 12 statement. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- he made a 14 statement. Okay. 15 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So let's 17 start from that point. 18 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: So -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You should 20 start from that point, and ask a question. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 23 Q: Again, you created your notes prior 24 to you giving a statement to the SIU, a statement you 25 knew you were going to give, correct?
2061 A: Yes. I finished my notebook entries 2 and brought them up to date on the night of the 7th of 3 September. 4 Q: And that was prior to giving your 5 statement? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: A statement you knew you were going 8 to give at some point? 9 A: Yes, I would expect. 10 Q: And why did you prepare your notes 11 prior to giving that statement? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I really 13 don't understand this, Mr. Mathai. I mean, I really 14 don't. He's been cross-examination about -- 15 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Well, I just -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- why it 17 took him so long -- 18 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: The question -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to 20 prepare his notes. 21 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: The question is asked, 22 if -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: And not only that, Mr. 24 Commissioner, this Witness has answered that question. 25 He says he --
2071 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: No, he hasn't -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: -- makes his notes -- 3 he says he makes his notes when it was practical 4 afterwards, and he did at that time. 5 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Sorry, that -- my 6 question now isn't why he's doing it on the 7th, it's why 7 he's doing it before he gives a statement. And I think 8 that's a fair question. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right -- 10 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: And I think I'm 11 entitled to the answer. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you've 13 asked a question, let's hear his answer. 14 THE WITNESS: It's my understanding that 15 my notebook has to be completed to the best of my 16 ability, when I can. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I completed my notebook. What comes 21 next, I -- I wait for. But I -- I am obliged to complete 22 my notes. 23 Q: You are obliged to complete your 24 notes, correct? That's what you've said, right? 25 A: That's what I just said, sir, yes.
2081 Q: Okay. And you are not -- you are not 2 of the position to say that if you're giving a statement, 3 you can ignore that obligation to prepare your notes? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't understand the 5 question. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again, I 7 don't understand the -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have -- I don't 9 understand the question. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: I can rephrase the 14 question if -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 16 you should. I'm -- 17 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Okay. That's -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- not sure 19 I understand it, either. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 22 Q: You're under an obligation to prepare 23 your notes and you know that a statement given to SIU 24 cannot supplant your obligation to prepare those notes, 25 correct?
2091 A: No, I -- I am -- as I said, I am 2 obliged to complete my notes and they're a sep -- 3 separate document from whatever method SIU would choose 4 to then capture my information. 5 Q: And do you know of any regulation, or 6 any law, or any statute of any kind, that allows you to 7 rely on a statement as opposed to preparing your notes? 8 A: I'm sorry, can you rephrase that or-- 9 Q: Sure. 10 A: -- give it back to me again, so I can 11 think about it? 12 Q: Do you know of any regulation or 13 statute or any type of law whatsoever -- 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But he made his notes. 15 What -- what is the purpose of this question. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 17 understand -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He made his notes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm baffled. 20 OBJ MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I object to the 21 question. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm trying 23 to give Mr. Mathai a little bit of leeway, but I am truly 24 baffled. 25 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Mr. Commissioner,
2101 we've heard evidence here at the Commission, prior to 2 this, that officers believed that their statement could 3 be used instead of taking their notes, and I'm just 4 trying to get from this -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But this man -- 6 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- Witness -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- he can ask -- this 8 man -- I don't remember exactly who might have said that 9 or didn't, but this man did his notes and this is real 10 argument. This is pure argument. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If -- if -- that My 13 Friend's trying to put through this Witness. 14 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: It's not argument. 15 I'm just asking him whether or not he -- he clearly knows 16 that he's under an obligation to prepare the notes, and 17 I'm wondering -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said 19 that. 20 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: I'm just asking -- 21 yeah, he said that. And I'm wondering whether or not he 22 knows of any reason why you cannot prepare your notes and 23 just rely on a statement you give to SIU. 24 And that's a fair question. In light of 25 the evidence that we've already heard, I think that's
2111 more than a fair question. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. Commissioner, 3 luckily you have heard from the officers that are being 4 referred to and they have given you an explanation for 5 what they did, and why they did it, and when they did it, 6 and how they did it. 7 And so to waste time now trying to do 8 something with someone else, I'm going to suggest, Mr. 9 Commissioner, isn't helping you at all. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With great respect, 11 Mr. Commissioner, having been in the -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 13 rising to assist -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- position of My 15 Friend -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Mr. 17 Mathai? 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, sir. You 19 know, when one sits there, one -- you can't always tell 20 the -- the purpose for cross-examination. 21 It took me a while to understand where he 22 was going and now I -- but I did understand a few moments 23 ago, and he does have a valid point. And it's not a 24 question of whether this officer did it or not, but he's 25 trying to establish evidence from this officer in
2121 relation to what we've heard from other officers. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 3 understand that -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And -- and it was a 5 simple, direct question and this officer could have -- 6 could have answered it and we could have been well past 7 this instead of spending -- instead of spending five (5) 8 minutes on the question of whether he could be asked the 9 question. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is -- 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: It's a simple 12 question as to what his obligations are and what he 13 understands his obligations to be. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 Thank you, Mr. Rosenthal. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And -- and it's 17 certainly relevant, given the other evidence that we've 18 heard. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 20 not sure I'm any further ahead, but I do appreciate your 21 effort, Mr. Rosenthal. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I think 24 it would be a lot easier to get an answer to the question 25 than if we ask you to explain it again, but --
2131 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Sorry, Mr. 2 Commissioner, I didn't hear that. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 4 to ask the question again and see if the question can be 5 asked in a simple straightforward way, and perhaps we can 6 move on, because I'm not sure how helpful this is, 7 that's the point. 8 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: You know -- it's okay, 9 Mr. Commissioner. I'll just move on at this point. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: I'm running out of 12 time. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 15 Q: I want to speak to you a bit about 16 the Grassy Narrows event and, in specific, in relation to 17 the T-shirts. 18 Now, you stated to Mr. Millar that -- when 19 he asked you about this, that you don't believe it would 20 be -- the offensiveness of the T-shirt would depend on 21 the design of the T-shirt, correct? 22 A: That could be a factor, yes, sir. 23 Q: Yes. And let me ask you if that 24 question would change if the T-shirt was prepared by the 25 perpetrators of the -- the death of the OPP officer?
2141 A: Can you put that into a complete 2 question for me, please, I'm just -- 3 Q: Sure. I'll put it into a different - 4 - if the First Nations people that were involved in the 5 Grassy Narrows event, if they had designed a T-shirt, 6 let's say depicting an HK-33 that was being broken by 7 their -- you know, their -- by some symbol representing 8 them, would you find that offensive? 9 A: I'm not sure how I can answer that. 10 It -- if they did a -- a T-shirt with the symbol of an 11 HK-33 getting broken to symbolize -- again, what is -- is 12 it a symbol? What does it mean? 13 Q: Well, let's say they -- they 14 explained that the symbol just meant weapons -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again, 16 you're going to go into Neverland, Mr. Mathai. This is 17 way, way out there. I understand what you're trying to 18 do. If he could answer the question it might be useful, 19 but to try to explain this just isn't useful enough, to 20 go on forever on this matter. 21 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: No. I don't plan on 22 going forever -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I know. 24 But I'm not sure that you can get an answer without going 25 into it more than you have so far, and I just don't
2151 think it's worth it. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 4 Q: Again, I'll move on. Just two (2) 5 quick questions. 6 Prior to Mr. Deane's death, have you seen 7 or do you have any knowledge of the OPP or the OPPA 8 distributing to its members any memorabilia or any items 9 celebrating or honouring Ken Deane? 10 A: The OPP or OPPA? 11 Q: The OPP or the OPPA. 12 A: Off the top of my head, no. 13 Q: Okay. And now prior to Mr. Deane's 14 death, have you seen or do you have any knowledge, again, 15 of the OPP or the OPPA distributing to new recruits any 16 memorabilia or any items celebrating or honouring Ken 17 Deane's -- or honouring Ken Deane? 18 A: Not that I'm aware of. 19 Q: Okay. Those are all my questions. 20 Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 22 Mr. Mathai. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2161 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 2 Jones...? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Good afternoon, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long do 6 you think you might be? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: I think I might be 8 about twenty (20) minutes. Okay? 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 11 Q: Good afternoon, Officer. 12 A: Good afternoon. 13 Q: Was September the 6th the first time 14 that TRU had ever worked in an operation in conjunction 15 with the CMU? 16 A: Yes, as far as I know. 17 Q: I wanted to ask you a few questions, 18 carry on with the next of September the 6th. You were 19 asked some questions about the walk down East Parkway 20 towards the sandy parking lot, and about the observations 21 that you made with the person who initially you thought 22 might have had a gun or a weapon. And I wanted to ask 23 you a few questions about that specific incident. 24 When you observed the person that had what 25 you thought might have been a gun or a weapon in his
2171 hand, was that object in his hand, was that pointed at 2 the CMU or, in your view, was the CMU at immediate risk 3 because of that person? 4 A: No. It was -- when I first viewed 5 him he was moving across my point of view and it was in a 6 suitcase style of carry, I call it, low, to his right 7 side and... 8 Q: Were you of the view at the time that 9 you had the time and an opportunity to make further 10 observations? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And if you had been of the view, if 13 the circumstances had been that the object was being 14 carried differently and you felt that the CMU was in 15 danger from the person, what actions would you have taken 16 or could you have taken? 17 A: There's a number of them, but I would 18 have had to take some sort of action immediately to 19 either deter the subject or to take action against them, 20 depending on what he was doing. 21 If he was pointing the gun in our 22 direction and I felt the CMU was threatened, I might 23 shoot him or shoot at him immediately, light him up, yell 24 at him, somehow prevent him from potentially causing 25 grievous bodily harm or death to other members.
2181 Q: Because your job, like the other 2 members of the TRU, is to protect life? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And if the CMU were at risk you would 5 be obligated to take action? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You were asked some questions about 8 when you were flanking the CMU and the CMU was in the 9 sandy parking lot and you were up on what -- the grassy 10 bank or the grassy knoll, depending on how you want to 11 describe it. 12 Were you in a position at that time to be 13 checking the terrain around the grassy knoll? 14 A: Not thoroughly. 15 Q: Okay. And you talk about making 16 observations, particularly over a -- over an area, and I 17 thought it might be helpful if you could describe to the 18 Commissioner what that means when you're making 19 observations. Is there a set pattern or a methodology 20 that you use when you're scanning an area? 21 A: There are a few techniques that we 22 use to examine terrain, if you have the time. In this 23 circumstance, because of the dynamic nature of the call, 24 with people moving around in and out of the light, most 25 people carrying things,
2191 some of the techniques go out the window. 2 I'm -- you're -- I recall just flitting 3 from person to person to person to area to see what are 4 they carrying, what are they doing, where are they going, 5 and examining the terrain, what's in that dark area? 6 It's just checking and re-checking and hoping you're not 7 missing anything. 8 Q: And it's difficult for us, Officer, 9 because probably none of us have ever been in a 10 circumstance like that, but can you give us some idea 11 about the level of confidence that you would have, that 12 during that period of time, for example, you would be 13 able to observe everything that was going on in the area? 14 A: There was no way I could observe 15 everything that's going on in that area. 16 Q: Possible that you could miss some 17 things that were being thrown at the CMU? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Possible that you could miss some 20 things that would be in the hands of the occupiers in the 21 Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Possible that there could be sounds 24 that others might hear and you might not hear? 25 A: Yes.
2201 Q: And, in fact, isn't that why there 2 would be, for example, more than one (1) TRU member on 3 the ground? 4 A: The more ears and eyes the better, 5 because you can miss things, yes, ma'am. 6 Q: Yeah. You gave some evidence about 7 when the CMU was retreating or withdrawing from the sandy 8 parking lot, occupiers coming over the -- the fence and 9 attacking them; is that right? 10 A: I don't know if I actually witnessed 11 anybody climbing the fences -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- but -- 14 Q: Coming into the sandy parking lot -- 15 A: -- they -- they came into the sandy 16 parking lot, yes. 17 Q: -- going after the CMU. Did you have 18 any doubt in your mind at the time that they were, as you 19 said, ready to rumble, I think, or ready to...? 20 A: No, they -- they were out for a 21 fight, the people that came out. They were challenging 22 and aggressive and -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- seeking confrontation. 25 Q: The next time --
2211 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 2 minute. Yes, Mr. Scullion...? 3 OBJ MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm objecting. 4 She's using terms like "attacking," "ready to rumble," 5 asking him to get in the minds of the people that came in 6 the sandy parking lot. 7 I thought we were trying to avoid doing 8 that exact exercise and it seems to me that we're right 9 back into it on this, slash, cross-examination/re- 10 examination? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I agree with Mr. 12 -- Mr. Scullion. We can ask this -- 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, 14 that's fair enough. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That makes 18 it easier for me. Carry on. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: The next time in the confrontation, I 22 take it, that you saw the occupiers engaging with the CMU 23 in any form, was when the CMU was retreating down the 24 road; is that right? 25 A: I guess it depends what you define as
2221 -- as interacting. When the CMU moved forward through 2 and overran some of the -- the occupiers -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- they were getting pelted -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- continued to get pelted at the 7 fence line. They backed up to the road again and they 8 were -- we were continuing to get objects thrown at us, 9 so that -- in my mind, that continued. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: It never abated until we disengaged 12 and got far enough away down East Parkway that -- then 13 the next phase occurred. 14 Q: Okay. You were asked some questions 15 about a comment, or comments, that Ken Deane made to you 16 on the night of September the 6th. 17 And if it gives you assistance, I'd refer 18 you to start off with Tab 16 of your book, which is the 19 evidence that you gave at the Ken Deane trial on April 20 the 10th, 1997 and page 122 of that document. 21 A: 122? 22 Q: Sorry, 119. My mistake. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So 119? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. Yeah, P-1591, Mr. 25 Commissioner.
2231 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 4 Q: And I just wanted to make sure that 5 your evidence on this point is clear. As I understand, 6 years after the fact, after September the 6th, 1995, 7 you've been thinking about a comment or comments; is that 8 right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And trying to make sense of time; is 11 that right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And is it fair to say that on April 14 the 10th, 1997, when you gave your evidence at Ken 15 Deane's trial, that your recollections would have been 16 fresher at that time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Is it possible that Ken Deane made 19 more than one (1) comment to you, during the night of 20 September the 6th, about what he -- what he saw and what 21 he did? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And is it possible that today you're 24 simply trying to link them together to try and make some 25 sense of that night?
2241 A: I'm struggling with trying to make 2 different comments that I attribute to that night come 3 together and make sense, using my own logic to try to -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- patch things together, yes. 6 Q: Okay. As opposed to what you 7 specifically recall? 8 A: What I specifically recall, yes. 9 Q: Okay. And I -- that sort of leads me 10 into another point, Officer, and that was you were asked 11 a question about, you know, sort of, what if, what if the 12 CMU hadn't gone down the road that night? And I think 13 you had made a comment that, you know, that's a question 14 that you've asked yourself. 15 And is it fair to say that as a matter of 16 course, after TRU has been involved in an incident, that 17 there is a debriefing? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And a debriefing is an opportunity 20 for you and other members of the TRU team to get a fuller 21 and broader picture of what went on? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And to talk about things that went 24 right and things that went wrong? 25 A: Yes.
2251 Q: Fair to say that there was never a 2 formal debriefing after the night of September the 6th? 3 A: There was never a formal debriefing 4 after that call, no ma'am. 5 Q: And so in terms of you having 6 information about the larger picture, that's something 7 that you've never had the opportunity to obtain? 8 A: No, I haven't. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: I had another question to ask you. 13 You were asked by Mr. Rosenthal some questions about what 14 you would have documented in your notes, vis-a-vis 15 comments, for example, that Ken Deane would have made to 16 you. 17 And I think you said, quite fairly, that 18 your notes represent what you saw and what you did, not 19 what others told you; is that right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you help us understand, as 22 the CMU was moving back to the TOC after the incident 23 with the bus and the incident with the car, what was your 24 job at that point in time? 25 A: We were doing our best to provide
2261 security for the CMU after the altercation. We were -- 2 we took the nose on security and we were shepherding them 3 back and doing the best we could to monitor the area -- 4 Q: Can you tell us -- 5 A: -- of the Park. 6 Q: -- from your perspective, what you 7 saw at that time, as whether or not this was a dangerous 8 situation? 9 A: It was a danger -- we had just come 10 through a wild situation and -- and the danger could 11 erupt at any moment, as far as I was concerned. We -- it 12 was pretty tense going back down the road. 13 Q: And given that, and given your 14 mandate, your job, which was to cover and protect the 15 CMU, would it have been a priority for you to remove 16 yourself from the CMU and go looking for a gun somewhere? 17 A: No. 18 Q: In your view, would it have been 19 reasonable and prudent for any other member of the TRU 20 team to withdraw from their responsibility to attend to 21 the CMU and go looking for a gun somewhere? 22 A: No. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 24 can just ask him about himself. 25 I think that's what you're going to say,
2271 isn't it? I think that's sufficient Ms. Jones. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: And those are my 3 questions, Mr. Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much, Ms. Jones. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I don't 7 have any other questions in re-examination. I'd like to 8 thank Constable Beauchesne for attending today. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much, Constable Beauchesne -- 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- for 13 giving us your evidence. 14 15 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 18 to go right in to the next witness or take a short five 19 (5) -- 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could take 21 a five (5) minute break. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me, 24 Commissioner. Could we take perhaps a little longer 25 break, the -- because some stuff -- My Friend has to get
2281 some stuff, so -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thanks. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 2:28 p.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 2:41 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed, please be seated. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 afternoon. 13 MR. JAMES IRVINE: Good afternoon, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 afternoon. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 20 Commissioner. The next witness is Sergeant James Irvine. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there a 22 binder there for this Witness? I don't have a binder for 23 him. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps I
2291 didn't -- thank you very much. 2 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Sergeant 3 Irvine. 4 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 5 6 JAMES ANDREW IRVINE, Sworn 7 8 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Irvine. 10 A: Good afternoon. 11 Q: Could you turn to Tab 1 of the black 12 binder in front of you. And I understand that's a copy 13 of your resume? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And this is Inquiry Document 2005533, 16 and I would ask that that be marked as the next exhibit. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1595, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1595: Document number 2005533. 20 Resume of James Andrew 21 Irvine. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And I understand, Sergeant Irvine, 25 that you became a police cadet in Northern Ireland in
2301 1977? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And you became a constable in the 4 Royal Ulster Constabulary in Belfast in 1978? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And at the time you were eighteen 7 (18) years old? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And when you were with the police 10 force in Ireland you did general policing, initially? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And then became a member of a 13 tactical unit that dealt with riot situations? 14 A: Yes, amongst other things. 15 Q: And in 1981 you emigrated to Canada? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And you were a correctional officer 18 from 1985 to 1986? 19 A: I was A correctional officer, I've 20 forgotten the dates now. 21 Q: And you joined the Ontario Provincial 22 Police in 1986? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And you were posted to the Dutton 25 detachment?
2311 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And while at the Dutton detachment 3 you were involved in general patrol duties? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And in 1987, for the summer, you were 6 posted to the Grand Bend detachment? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And while you were at the Dutton 9 Detachment, I understand you had some policing experience 10 with respect to First Nations when you were called out to 11 assist in policing of First Nations communities? 12 A: Not so much called out. On the night 13 shift, when I was working and maybe something happened on 14 the -- the reservation to the north of my Detachment 15 area, I may have -- I went to backup other officers. 16 I wasn't called out from home or anything 17 like that. 18 Q: It was while you were on-duty? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I understand you became a member 21 of TRU -- the TRU team, the tactical -- Tactics and 22 Rescue Unit, in 1989? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you remain on the TRU team until 25 August 2004?
2321 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And in August 2004, you -- or in 3 2004, excuse me, you were promoted to Sergeant and 4 transferred to the Provincial Communications Centre? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And as I understand it, that in 7 addition to the regular training that was received by TRU 8 team members back when you joined the TRU team, you took 9 an extra two (2) week sniper course? 10 A: In 1990 I did that, yes. 11 Q: In 1990. And since 1990, if you look 12 at Exhibit 1595, you've been, among other things, a -- an 13 instructor on four (4) OPP Academy sniper courses; is 14 that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And in addition, you've taken some 17 training in 1990, the -- in 1993 at page 3 of your resume 18 at Tab 1, you took a sniper course at Fort Drum in the 19 United States of America? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And you took a firearms instructor 22 course in 1993? 23 A: Yes. The OPP one. 24 Q: The OPP. And you've been -- taken a 25 wide variety of courses over the years?
2331 A: Yes, I have. 2 Q: And in 1995, the normal TRU team comp 3 -- was composed, as I understand it, of twelve (12) 4 members? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And in 1995, the TRU team, the London 7 TRU team, the lead was acting Staff Sergeant Kent 8 Skinner? The team leader. 9 A: Yes, he was the team leader. I think 10 our actual team had been seconded somewhere else. We 11 might have been down to eleven (11) people at that stage, 12 I don't remember. 13 Q: And then the assistant team leader 14 was acting Sergeant Kenneth Deane? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And now we've heard that there were a 17 Sierra team or which was -- has been described as a -- an 18 observation and sniper team. 19 Can you tell us what the role of -- in 20 1995, the role of the Sierra team was? 21 A: For this particular incident or -- 22 Q: In general. 23 A: -- in general? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Okay. Snipers have been part of
2341 tactical units for quite a while. I believe the OPP 2 modelled our TRU team very much after Los Angeles which 3 was probably one of the first SWAT teams. 4 And basically to be able to do our job, we 5 have to know what's going on and snipers are often the 6 first people into the scene and basically are eyes on 7 radio contact and not only gathering intelligence and so 8 on, but then can also cover for movement for other 9 people. 10 When I say covering movement, if -- if 11 we're dealing with a single suspect in a house and that 12 suspect is at the back side of the house, if we have 13 officers watching the front that are in an awkward 14 position or need to get better cover, as long as somebody 15 is able to call that -- the suspect at a certain window, 16 other people may have an opportunity to move to get to 17 better positions. 18 So the sniper's an intrical (sic) part of 19 the team, providing that cover, but also the intelligence 20 and information, I guess, to -- to facilitate other 21 movement. 22 Q: All right. And I understand that in 23 1993 and you'll find on the inside of your cover of your 24 book, there's some notes that you were involved in 1993 25 with Camp Ipperwash.
2351 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, on the first page of that -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- document? 6 A: And what you've got in front of you 7 is what I was provided this morning as being some 8 additional notes of yours; is that correct? 9 These are copies of your notes? 10 A: I'm sorry, these are what? 11 Q: Are these your notes? 12 A: It looks like a scanned copy of my 13 notes, yes. 14 Q: That's what I was asking. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: And it's simply a photocopy or a copy 17 of the scanned copy of your notes? 18 A: Likely, yes. Yeah. 19 Q: The -- and back in 1993, can you tell 20 me what your note taking practice was? 21 A: My notes -- 22 Q: When you make notes, why do you make 23 notes? 24 A: Oh, to refresh my memory, of course, 25 I see where you're going, yeah.
2361 Q: And when do you make the notes? 2 A: Usually as soon as possible after the 3 -- the event or the time of the information. 4 Q: And in 1993 did you follow that same 5 practice? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I would ask that this -- these 8 notes, Commissioner, that we were provided, that is a 9 scanned copy of a -- I take it a photocopy of the notes, 10 cover the period 1993, 1994, and 1997, I would ask that 11 they be marked the next exhibit? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1596, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1596: Handwritten notebook entries 15 of Sgt. James Irvine, May 25- 16 26 1993, August 23-24 1993, 17 March 29 1994, May 06 1994, 18 September 11-16 1997. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And can you tell us, these notes 22 refer to May 25th, 1993, and May 26th, 1993, can you 23 briefly tell us what you were doing, the role you were 24 playing on those two (2) days? 25 A: Okay. The -- the first two (2) lines
2371 basically carried over from the previous page. I think it 2 was a motor vehicle stop or something. The third line 3 down says: 4 "To Forest Detachment with Deane. 5 There we met Detective Staff Sergeant 6 Garnet Matthews and then to the 7 Northville [to the town of Northville] 8 to scout out a Tactical Operations 9 Centre position with Deane and with the 10 District Tech K. Robson." 11 This would have been, I guess what the 12 Military would have referred to as reconnaissance, just 13 to go and have a look at an area in case we had to -- to 14 do any work in that general area. 15 Q: And what information, if any, did you 16 have with respect to the -- what was happening at Camp 17 Ipperwash in the summer of 1993 or May 25th, 1993? 18 A: I don't have any notes to that effect 19 on this page. 20 Q: And the next note, May 26th, was this 21 still part of the -- the work that you started on May 22 25th? 23 A: Yes. At the bottom of the upper page 24 you'll see the word: 25 "Zone."
2381 And then: 2 "TRU Ops Planning." 3 It's obviously to do with an operation. 4 And then the upper part of the lower page: 5 "Forest to Ipperwash area." 6 And basically I went with John Periversoff 7 (phonetic) who was my Staff Sergeant Team Leader, and 8 Acting Sergeant Deane to the Pinery Park. We met up with 9 Staff Sergeant Sharp. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: And then the technician again to do 12 some comms testing. And as I'm reading here we found a 13 site west of 79 on Bosanquet Township Road 27, and we set 14 up the Victrix mast and basically tested the portable to 15 the Victrix mast. 16 The Victrix mast is a 40 foot mast that 17 puts an antenna up into the air, so it was to do radio 18 testing. 19 Q: And you were testing the 20 communications for the TRU Team? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And prior to September 1995, had you 23 had any training in -- with respect of First Nations 24 issues? 25 A: I'm just going to refer to the -- the
2391 CV that you started with. 2 Q: You'll find -- 3 A: No, it was 1996 that I did that. I'm 4 going to say no. 5 Q: And did you have any cultural 6 awareness training as part of your initial training? Do 7 you recall that? 8 A: I don't remember. 9 Q: Okay. And in -- if I could take you 10 back to Exhibit P-1596, I understand that you were called 11 out on May 23rd and May 24th to the Ipperwash area with 12 respect to a military helicopter being shot at, allegedly 13 at Ipperwash Army Camp. 14 Is that correct? 15 A: The document that you're referring 16 to, this is the -- the one from the sleeve? 17 Q: Pardon me? 18 A: The one from the sleeve of the book, 19 is this the document? 20 Q: Yeah. If you'd look at page 2. 21 A: Okay. You said May, I've got August 22 on -- 23 Q: What did I say? 24 A: You said May. 25 Q: Oh. I meant August 23rd.
2401 A: Okay. 2 Q: If you look halfway down the page 3 you'll see: 4 "TRU callout to Forest, staged re 5 shooting at military helicopter at 6 Ipperwash." 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And as I understand it from these two 9 (2) pages of notes for August 23rd, 1993 and August 24th, 10 1993, that you were on standby at Pinery Park? 11 A: Yes. The -- the top of the page 12 starts on Monday the 23rd of August, and we TRU are 13 involved in basically doing observation for a shooter 14 that was shooting at vehicles on Highways 401, 2 and 3. 15 So -- 16 Q: But that had nothing to do with it. 17 A: It had nothing to do with it. At one 18 o'clock the next morning, which would have been Tuesday 19 the 24th, we got the call that a -- a helicopter had been 20 shot at and we went basically to stand by in case 21 anything further came of that. 22 Q: And that's -- and you did nothing 23 beyond standing by? 24 A: Let me just confirm that. No, we did 25 nothing but stand by.
2411 Q: And then the next page of these notes 2 there's a heading, "March 29, 1994." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Can you tell us what you did on March 5 29, 1994? 6 A: Normal ten (10) hour day shift and 7 vehicle administration. Basically, a big part of our day 8 is making sure all of our weapons, equipment, vehicles, 9 and so on, are in order. So obviously that was what my 10 day consisted of. 11 But at some stage during the day I talked 12 to a gentleman who services -- had serviced our firearms 13 and he had advised me -- and I'm not sure where he got 14 the information from, and it says there: 15 "Natives at Ipperwash having a grenade 16 launcher, 30 millimetre." 17 I'm sorry, I can't read the photocopy of 18 the photocopy here, but possibly a 37 millimetre, as in a 19 -- a federal riot gun caliber, or 40 millimetre, as in an 20 M-79, which is the -- the US military grenade launcher. 21 I put in there, the last line: 22 "To check out." 23 Q: And so this was information from 24 someone that you dealt with with respect to firearms and 25 you have no idea who he obtained the information from?
2421 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And did you check it out? 3 A: I have no further notification to it. 4 I'm sure I would have -- I likely would have passed it 5 along but I -- I don't remember. 6 Q: Then the next page says: 7 "Friday, the 6th of May 1994." 8 Can you tell us what you did with respect 9 to Ipperwash on Friday, the 6th of May 1994? 10 A: Well, I don't if it was in respect to 11 Ipperwash, we were -- some TRU officers, myself, Klym, 12 McCormack and O'Halloran, were going up to the Forest 13 area where they were doing RIDE checks, and we were 14 basically there to -- to cover for uniforms if there were 15 any problems. 16 We were briefed by Sergeant Steve 17 McDonald, basically it's a RIDE, but there was a concern 18 of weapons somewhere or other. So we were basically just 19 in the area in case anything happened. 20 Q: And then at the top of the next page 21 there's a note: 22 "First anniversary of Natives taking 23 Ipperwash from Military." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then someone had provided you
2431 with that information? 2 A: Yes. And I can't remember who -- who 3 had provided it but it -- the next line says: 4 "Intel [or Intelligence] last week on 5 weapons to be smuggled in in a New 6 Jersey plated vehicle." 7 So from the previous week the -- the 8 information had come. I've got not idea who said that or 9 where it came from. 10 Q: And in 1995, in February of 1995, I 11 understand that you participated in a TRU callout in 12 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 13 A: Yes. Yeah. 14 Q: And at Tab 3 of your -- the book in 15 front of you, you will find some notes, it's Inquiry 16 Document 2005606. 17 And is that a photocopy of your notes, 18 Sergeant Irvine? 19 A: It certainly looks like it. 20 Q: And I would ask that they be -- this 21 be marked the next exhibit, please. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1597, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1597: Document Number 2005606. 25 Handwritten notebook entries
2441 of Sgt. James Irvine, 2 February 25-27 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And I understand that you were called 6 out on February 26th and your role was as a sniper to 7 cover, contain and observe; is that correct? 8 A: Let me just read through it, please. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Yes, as a sniper. 13 Q: And as I understand it from my review 14 of these notes, your role was to contain the residents 15 and ensure the suspect who was believed to be inside, did 16 not come out and harm anyone? 17 A: That's correct. Part of the role 18 that we also do as TRU, even as snipers, is we are 19 containing the suspect in a residence, but oftentimes we 20 are evacuating people on the perimeter who might be in 21 harm's way. 22 If that means taking people from their 23 main floor or the bedrooms down into the basement so that 24 they'll be safe from gunshot, then sobeit. We've -- I've 25 done that on many occasions.
2451 Q: Okay. And the -- with respect to 2 this incident, you were partnered with, I believe, 3 Constable Klym? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And at approximately 4:47, if you 6 look at the top of the third page, sir, page numbered 17 7 in your notes. And if you want to use your original 8 notes, that's fine. 9 It appears that the -- excuse me. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: If you look down at 06:55; do you see 14 that entry? 15 A: Yes, I do. 16 Q: Approximate then it -- it reads: 17 "DD deployed". 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what does that refer to, sir? 20 A: A DD is what we refer to as a 21 diversionary device. I believe the manufacturer's name 22 was Deftec at that particular time. 23 But on many occasions that go through the 24 night, as this one did, the suspect actually falls asleep 25 and it's hard to negotiate with somebody who's sleeping.
2461 So in this case it was, obviously if we're 2 not getting anywhere with a person, Deftec is deployed. 3 It makes a loud bang. It's like a big firecracker 4 really. 5 And oftentimes the suspect wakes up, has 6 no idea what woke him up but will go to the phone, 7 because the phone's ringing and, in fact, talk to the 8 negotiators, so everything's back on again. 9 Q: And is it your understanding that's 10 why a DD was deployed at this point in time, in the 11 morning of August 24th? 12 A: I don't remember in this particular 13 incident. I'm reading the lines above. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: So at -- at the line that starts on 18 the left side, at 06:10, approximately. 19 "Containment complete. Evacuation 20 complete." 21 So we've got all of the -- the people on 22 the perimeter out. 23 "Phone call made. [it says] No response 24 visually. No lights came on." 25 And then the Tactical Operations Centre,
2471 TAC 1 advises that he's coming out, but that didn't 2 happen. 3 And then at 6:55, the diversionary device 4 was employed. 5 Q: And as I understand it, the incident 6 came to an end when the suspect surrendered to Kettle and 7 Stony Point police officers? 8 A: Yes. the -- the line that I have 9 there says: 10 "07:20 approximately, KPPD..." 11 Which in my terms was Kettle Point Police 12 Department, 13 "...cruiser with two (2) officers to 14 the driveway. They approached the 15 window to talk to the person and they 16 took him away in the cruiser." 17 At the top of the next page. 18 Q: Okay. And that was th end of the 19 incident insofar as you were concerned? 20 A: Well standard for -- for most 21 incidents where a firearm has been used or threatened, we 22 will actually clear -- TRU will clear the residence. 23 It's standard procedure just to confirm that there isn't 24 a second person inside the house; also sometimes to make 25 sure there are no booby traps left behind for the police
2481 as they go in -- 2 Q: And that's what you did -- 3 A: -- and so I have TRU cleared it -- 4 TRU cleared the residence and then we packed up and left. 5 Q: Okay. Then in -- if I could move 6 ahead to the summer of 1995 prior to September 5th, 1995, 7 what information if any did you have about any issues 8 surrounding the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 9 What did you know about any issues with 10 respect to the First Nation and the Park? 11 A: Are you referring to any of my books 12 or leaflets that we've discussed so far? 13 Q: Any information you had. I don't 14 know -- I have no idea, Mr. Irvine, what information you 15 had. The question is if it's in your notes I don't -- I 16 don't know -- I've -- I've seen no notes before September 17 5th. 18 My question is: What information did you 19 have? 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: Or any information. 22 A: The information that I -- I wrote 23 down is obviously in my notes as it's been given. But I 24 think all of southwestern Ontario was aware that there 25 had been an -- an incident at the -- the Military Base
2491 and it certainly wasn't a secret that was being well 2 maintained. Something was happening there and I think 3 the media was covering it. 4 So I -- I don't remember if I had any more 5 information than the -- the media was reporting but 6 certainly I was aware that something was going on. 7 Q: And were you aware of in August or 8 before September 4th, 1995, of any issues with respect to 9 the Provincial Park? 10 A: I don't remember. 11 Q: Did you play any role in the 12 planning for a potential takeover of the Provincial Park? 13 A: I don't remember. 14 Q: And at Tab 4 there's a copy of 15 Exhibit P-424, it's entitled, Project Maple September 16 1995. 17 Prior to September 5th, 1995 do you recall 18 seeing this document, P-424? 19 A: No, I don't. 20 Q: Do you recall seeing this document P- 21 424 at any time, sir? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: No, I don't.
2501 Q: Okay. And I would ask you to turn to 2 Tab 5. At Tab 5 you will find a page of notes, it's 3 Inquiry Document 2005419. 4 We are told that these are a photocopy of 5 your notes and do they appear to be a photocopy of your 6 notes? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Yes, they are a reduced photocopy but 11 a photocopy nonetheless. 12 Q: And the -- I would ask that this page 13 be marked the next exhibit? 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1598, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1598: Document Number 2005419. 17 Handwritten notebook entries 18 of James Irvine, September 19 03-06 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And I note on -- according to Exhibit 23 P-1598 that September 5th was supposed to be a vacation 24 day? 25 A: Yes.
2511 Q: And what happened with respect to -- 2 on that day with respect Ipperwash Provincial Park? 3 A: At 14:30 in the afternoon or 2:30 4 p.m. TRU was called out. I noted in here we had time to 5 pack and prepare so we didn't have to rush to the 6 vehicles and go immediately. 7 We were wearing our green clothing. We 8 went to Pinery Park and to the meeting area for 9 accommodations so we were obviously bunking down there. 10 And we basically prepared the area and our equipment and 11 so on for a quick reaction. 12 Q: And when you got to Pinery Park -- 13 you have the note, "Meeting." What -- were you briefed? 14 It was -- what was the purpose of the meeting? 15 A: I think that's "Meeting area," that's 16 the -- the name of the place that we went to. 17 Q: Okay. Thank you. Do you recall, did 18 you receive a briefing on September the 5th? 19 A: I -- I don't remember it. It would 20 certainly make sense but I don't remember it. 21 Q: Do you remember being told about what 22 your mission was to be? 23 A: No. We were doing a quick reaction, 24 which basically could have been anything. Is it officer 25 rescue? Is it containment? Basically, we didn't know
2521 what we were preparing for, so we were trying to get 2 ready for all eventualities. 3 Q: And on September the 5th were you 4 familiar with Ipperwash Provincial Park, Sergeant Irvine? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And how had you -- how were you -- 7 how had you become familiar with Ipperwash Provincial 8 Park? 9 A: I had visited the Park with my 10 family. 11 Q: Okay. And on September the 5th, 1995 12 did you go down to Ipperwash Provincial Park or the Army 13 Camp Road or East Parkway Drive? 14 A: No. We stayed at the -- the meeting 15 area. 16 Q: At the Pinery Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you were -- did you -- you bunked 19 in at the Pinery Park? 20 A: Although I don't have it written 21 down, yes, we did stay in that area. 22 Q: Okay. And if you could turn to Tab 23 6. 24 Commissioner, Tab 6 is a copy of Inquiry 25 Document 100500. Some of Sergeant Irvine's notes have
2531 been already marked as Exhibit P-493, Inquiry Document 2 2003605. The copy that's in the notes in the book at Tab 3 6 is a better copy and a clearer copy of these notes. 4 And after I ask the next question I'm 5 going to ask that it -- this copy be marked as an exhibit 6 as well. 7 Is this, the notes at Tab 6, Sergeant 8 Irvine, a photocopy of your notes for September the 6th, 9 1995? 10 A: Yes. Again, it looks like a photo 11 reduced copy but it is a copy of my notebook. 12 Q: A copy of your notes. 13 Then I would ask that this copy be marked 14 the next exhibit, please. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1599, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1599: Document Number 1000500. 18 Handwritten notebook entries 19 of James Irvine, September 06 20 1995. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And can you tell us the -- what you 24 did during the day on September the 6th, 1995? 25 A: Started -- I came on-duty at seven
2541 o'clock in the morning. Shortly after that time, and I'm 2 not sure exactly when, some of the ERT teams that were 3 coming in off night shift, we spoke with some of the 4 officers, some of the members. 5 Q: And what, if anything, did you learn 6 from the ERT team? 7 A: Well, I was -- I was told that some 8 of the cruisers had been pelted with rocks during the 9 night, numerous windows had been broken. There were 10 members from 6, 1 and 2 District ERT's, and that was when 11 we had -- the OPP was divided into sixteen (16) 12 districts; 1 District being Essex to Chatham, 2 District 13 being London, 3 District Niagara Falls area, and 6 14 District being Mount Forest and thereabouts. So these 15 officers were relatively local to Southwestern Ontario 16 from 1, 2 and 6 Districts. 17 Somebody mentioned shots had been heard. 18 And when I say "shots" fully automatic shooting from 19 inside the Provincial Park. And I guess the officers had 20 been on the Army Camp Road when they heard this. 21 It goes further down the page: 22 "Several bursts, fifty (50) to sixty 23 (60) rounds, total over about five (5) 24 minutes, somewhere between 01:00 and 25 02:00."
2551 Or 1:00 and 2:00 a.m. 2 Q: And that was -- the source of that 3 was Constable Horzempa -- Horzempa? 4 A: I had talked to Vic Horzempa many 5 times over the previous years. In fact, we'd worked 6 together occasionally. He was out of London Detachment, 7 I think. 8 I've written in here that he heard it. He 9 was certainly part of the conversation. I've been told 10 since that he didn't say that. But certainly a 11 conversation that he was party to he was with that I 12 heard the conversation. 13 Q: And then there's the reference at the 14 top to: 15 "ERT teams advised that cruisers pelted 16 with rocks last night. Numerous 17 windows broken." 18 And that's 76 ERT, 1 or 2 ERT. And what, 19 if anything else, do you recall about being told about 20 the cruisers being pelted with rocks? 21 Do you have any other -- 22 A: I don't remember anything else. 23 Basically, I wrote that in my notebook because I thought 24 it was significant at the time. 25 Q: Okay. And if I could turn you back
2561 to the first page of September the 6th. I note that 2 you've made a note of the TRU members who were present at 3 Ipperwash Park? 4 A: Yes, at the very bottom of Wednesday 5 the 6th of September on that page. 6 Q: That's right. 7 A: Page 30. 8 Q: The "IC", does that refer to incident 9 command? 10 A: In charge. 11 Q: In charge. 12 A: From my notes, yes. 13 Q: And "Skin" is Kent Skinner? 14 A: Skinner, yes. 15 Q: "Deane" is Kenneth Deane? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And then with it's Beauchamp. 18 A: That's "Beauchesne." 19 Q: Beauchesne, excuse me. Kamerman. 20 A: "Kamerman". 21 Q: Kamerman. "Klym". 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: "O'Halloran." 24 A: McCormack was be -- would be beside 25 Klym.
2571 Q: Yes. 2 A: Everything's in short form. It's 3 just a -- I don't know if it's laziness, but for speed, 4 anyway. So Klym, McCormack, O'Halloran, Slomer, 5 Strickler and Zupancic. 6 Q: And Slomer was the medic? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then your notes indicate that you 9 continued to be on standby; is that correct? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And during the day on September the 12 6th, 1195, did you go down to the Provincial -- Ipperwash 13 Provincial Park area prior to the evening of September 14 the 6th? 15 A: I don't remember. 16 Q: And if you had gone down to 17 Provincial Park or down to Army Camp Road and East 18 Parkway Drive, would you have made a note of it? 19 A: I would, yes. 20 Q: And there's no note that you did that 21 during the day? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And, in fact, your note says you 24 continued to standby? 25 A: Yes.
2581 Q: And then your note indicates that at 2 20:30 there was a TRU call pager? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And now the events that follow, the - 5 - do you have any independent recollection of the events 6 or do you need your notes to assist your recollection? 7 A: I -- I'd like to have my notes to 8 refer to the times, if that's what you mean. 9 Q: I'm just trying to figure out what 10 you can remember without your notes and what can you -- 11 what you need your notes -- are you refreshing your 12 memory from your notes? Or is it a combination? 13 A: It's going to be a combination, yeah. 14 Q: And when did you make the notes, 15 starting at 20:30 and the following pages? 16 A: Those would have been made almost at 17 the time. At -- basically, I had a lot of time and as 18 you can see, from the whole day of continuing standby. 19 Q: No, but from 20:30 on. You 20 misunderstood my question. 21 From 20:30, you're called out and the 22 notes that follow, did you make them as you were going 23 along on the evening of September the 6th? 24 A: From 20:30 until probably the 25 briefing at 21:00 or thereabouts and after that I didn't
2591 have time to make notes. I was not in a position to 2 makes notes at the time. 3 But the lower part of that page 31 -- 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: If you can read it, were made at the 6 time, as it was happening. 7 Q: And then when did you stop making 8 your notes contemporaneous and made them later on? At 9 what time? 10 A: Oh, probably the time that Strickler 11 and I set off for the Camp. 12 Q: And we'll come to that. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the notes that you made later, 15 can you tell us today when you made those notes? 16 A: I can't tell you the day, no. 17 Q: Was it the next day? Two (2) days 18 later? Three (3) days later? 19 A: I think it was the next day. 20 Normally on a call in the middle of the night to write 21 notes one would need a flashlight which is detrimental to 22 one's position in -- in an area if potentially firearms 23 are involved so sorry, but I just didn't have time to 24 make written notes at the scene at the time. 25 So basically once I left the Tactical
2601 Operations Centre Command Post area my notebook was in my 2 pocket but I -- I wasn't writing. 3 Q: That wasn't my question. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: My question was: When did you make 6 the notes? 7 A: I think I made them the next day. 8 Q: And starting at 20:30 you received a 9 call over your pager. Is that what -- tell us what 10 happened at 20:30. 11 A: Well, we had a TRU call by pager. 12 All of us on the TRU Team carried pagers and still do and 13 basically we set of for the town of Forest. We loaded up 14 our -- our gun trucks 42309, 42311, and our Suburbans. 15 We set out for Forest. We got as far as 16 Northville and we got a cancellation, and I can't 17 remember if that was by pager or by radio. Basically we 18 were to go back to Pinery, leave the gun trucks so we did 19 in fact do that and -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- I made another note at 21:01 in 22 the Suburban, in Burbans as it says: 23 "Left Pinery." 24 Q: And what equipment did you have when 25 you left the Pinery Park at 21:01?
2611 A: Me personally or the team? 2 Q: You personally. 3 A: Well, I would have had my -- my 4 weapons, police sidearm which was my Browning high power. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: I had an HK, Heckler and Koch 91 7 which is an assault rifle. I had a night vision scope 8 for that and I usually carry an MP5 SD, a submachine gun 9 with a silencer on it. And the night vision will work on 10 either the assault rifle or the silent submachine gun. 11 I also brought spare batteries, food, and 12 all kinds of stuff that I bring in a rucksack for -- for 13 containment purposes basically. 14 Q: And the -- and you -- you took that 15 with you on the evening -- when you left Pinery on the 16 evening of September the 6th? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then at 21:14 you've got a note: 19 "At Ravenswood (meeting area) [in 20 brackets] on to Ipperwash Park Park's 21 overflow parking area." 22 Have I read that correctly, sir? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what does that refer to, sir? 25 A: Obviously we were told to meet at
2621 Ravenswood so that was our meeting area and from 2 Ravenswood we went on to the Ipperwash Park overflow 3 parking area which is west I guess on East Parkway Drive. 4 Q: And when you were at Ravenswood did 5 you have a meeting at Ravenswood or did you just 6 rendevous with the different vehicles? 7 A: We gathered -- there was obviously 8 some words said because on the top of the next page that 9 I -- I have here that there was information of weapons 10 and so on. 11 Q: But -- 12 A: And it wasn't a full briefing but it 13 was mentioned or discussed. 14 Q: But did that take place at the 15 overflow parking area on East Parkway or at Ravenswood, 16 that's -- 17 A: No, that was at Ravenswood. 18 Q: At Ravenswood? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And what were you told when you were 21 at Ravenswood? 22 A: The top of page 32. 23 Q: Yes, sir? 24 A: Note at 21:14 a briefing or 25 information basically of Natives having mini 14's which
2631 to me is a -- a .223 calibre assault rifle, Molotov 2 cocktails, AK-47's which is a Soviet assault rifle or 3 similar, and scoped rifles. 4 So from there we went up to the overflow 5 parking lot which is west of the Park on East Parkway 6 Drive or east of where we actually had been briefed here 7 or had gathered here and then we were actually briefed by 8 Skinner at the overflow parking lot. 9 Q: Okay. And then your notes go, after 10 "scoped rifles": 11 "Plan: to set off in direction of 12 Camp/Provincial Park." 13 What's that refer to? 14 A: I'm sorry? 15 Q: After you read, "scoped rifles," then 16 can you read the next line. It's the one (1), two (2), 17 three (3), four (4), five (5), sixth line down from the 18 top? 19 A: Yes, it says: 20 "Plan [and then colon]: To set off in 21 direction of Camp/Provincial Park." 22 Q: And what's what refer to? 23 A: Obviously that's where we were going 24 to be working on this particular night. 25 Q: Okay. Then there's some information
2641 about -- could you read the next part? 2 A: Yes. It says: 3 "Natives have taken a civilian's car 4 and wrecked it. Strickler and myself 5 as Sierra 1 to get OP [which would be 6 an observation point] at cottages on 7 the north side of the road. McCormack 8 and Kamerman -- Kamerman on the south 9 side as Sierra 2." 10 And we used call signs Sierra 11 differentiating -- differentiating from the -- the other 12 call signs. Sierra basically are the -- the snipers or 13 the observer cover team. 14 So Dave and I -- Dave Strickler and I were 15 Sierra 1 and the other two (2) were Sierra 2. 16 Q: And that was Constables Kamerman and 17 McCormack? 18 A: As Sierra 2, yes. 19 Q: Yes. And the information that you 20 have made a note: "Native have taken a civilian's car 21 and wrecked it," who gave you that information and where 22 were you? 23 Were you down by the -- at the overflow 24 parking area? 25 A: Yes. That would have been during
2651 Skinner's briefing at the overflow parking area. 2 Q: And did Skinner brief you about the 3 guns in the overflow parking area? 4 A: He may have done but my note here, at 5 the top of that page again, is that he -- at 21:14 it had 6 been mentioned. So that was when we actually met at 7 Ravenswood. 8 Q: And the -- do you recall anything 9 else that was said to you about the car being wrecked? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: And did you subsequently learn after 12 the incident what happened to the car? 13 A: I don't remember that. 14 Q: And do you recall anyone telling you 15 that the car that was referred to had simply had a stone 16 thrown at it? No? 17 A: I don't remember that. 18 Q: Okay. Then do you know what time it 19 was when you were -- excuse me, let me stop. 20 There's -- part of your note says: 21 "Information that KP Natives plan an 22 altercation with people on Provincial 23 Park. KP don't agree with land claim 24 of Provincial Park." 25 And who told you that?
2661 A: I don't remember who said those exact 2 words but it's part of Skinner's briefing. 3 Q: Okay. And then what did you do next, 4 sir? 5 A: Well, basically Dave Strickler and I 6 set off to get into position to observe what was going 7 on. 8 Q: And the -- Commissioner, just for the 9 purposes of My Friends, there is a communication at 10 21:37, it's Track 21:37, that reads: 11 "TRU Suburban to all ERT members on the 12 ground, be advised that TRU members are 13 deploying. Go ahead." 14 And then it says: 15 "Tex unclear." 16 Is it your recollection that you were 17 deployed approximately at 21:37 hours on the evening of 18 September the 6th? 19 A: I don't remember the time. It's 20 certainly not inconsistent though. 21 Q: And can you tell us what you did 22 next? 23 A: Dave Strickler got into the trunk of 24 the Suburban and we were to be driven up to the scene. 25 Into the trunk because, to me, is an advantage of a
2671 vehicle arriving, when no doors open, it's not quite so 2 obvious that people have been inside. 3 But unfortunately we had our other Sierra 4 team with us and they were in the back area of that 5 Suburban. So we drove up the road -- 6 Q: And who drove you up the road? 7 A: Ken Deane drove us. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And basically he stopped, Dave 10 Strickler and I jumped out and went to ground, and that 11 means basically get low, get into cover and just get a 12 feel for -- for what the environment is. And our -- the 13 other Sierra team got out at that particular time too. 14 Q: And this note says: 15 "Stopping within their Natives sight of 16 us." 17 And does that refer to, sir? 18 A: Basically I think we went too far 19 east because obviously somebody was able to see us. 20 Q: And how do you know that, sir? 21 You're making that -- 22 A: I -- as soon as I got out of the 23 vehicle I was trying to pick up everything that was going 24 on around me. It's like coming out of a tunnel into 25 something that is 360 degrees around.
2681 You know the tunnel which is 2 degrees 2 behind, but there's an awful lot of stuff to pick up. So 3 I got out of the back of a Suburban to -- to get my 4 bearings and I don't remember seeing a person or persons 5 standing. 6 But there was the fire, there was the 7 noise. I don't remember. I don't remember. 8 Q: And what were you wearing on the 9 evening of September 6th when you were deployed on East 10 Parkway Drive? 11 A: That would have been my green 12 uniform. 13 Q: And can you -- your green uniform 14 consisted of a shirt and pants. And did you have a 15 bullet proof vest? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: Did you -- 18 A: That was green as well. 19 Q: It was green as well. And did you 20 have a hat? 21 A: Yes. I had what we call a booney 22 hat, which is similar to the military issue floppy hat. 23 Q: And did you have any hard TAC 24 equipment? 25 A: No, I did not.
2691 Q: And so you got out of the car and -- 2 or the Suburban, and then what did you do next, sir? 3 A: We -- Dave and I went to ground. The 4 Suburban went forward a little bit towards where the -- 5 the fire and the light and obvious -- the Park area, I 6 guess. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: At which stage Dave and I ran across 9 the road to the north or the lakeside of the road. 10 Q: And when you -- when you say you saw 11 a fire and some light, and where was the fire and the 12 light that you observed, sir? 13 A: To my east. When I say fire, there 14 was -- there was so much light coming from that 15 particular area, whether shining off clouds or trees or 16 what, but it was -- there was obviously a fire in that 17 area, to the east. 18 Q: And in that area -- was the area the 19 Provincial Park, the sandy parking lot outside the 20 Provincial Park, or do you know? 21 A: Well, I guess it was somewhere in 22 that area now. 23 Q: Okay. And then what did you do? 24 A: Dave and I had to link up with our 25 ERT team members, because we were to replace them. So we
2701 spent a few minutes looking for similarly clad people in 2 considerable darkness, because although the fire was 3 illuminating a lot of stuff to the east of us, we were 4 now in shrub -- shrubbery bushes, and so on, with a lot 5 less light. 6 And we didn't want to bump into people 7 other than the -- the people we were supposed to relieve. 8 So we spent some time looking around. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: We did, in fact, link up with two (2) 11 ERT members. 12 Q: And then what happened? Did they 13 tell you anything? 14 A: I've got, about two-thirds of the way 15 down page 32: 16 "TOC advises us of ERT team near us" 17 So likely over the radio, because that was 18 the only com -- communication with the Tactical 19 Operations Centre. 20 So there's an ERT team near us. We did, 21 in fact, meet up with them and they gave us a, I guess, a 22 quick briefing on what they had been experiencing, what 23 was going on from where they had been. 24 Q: And what did you -- what did they 25 tell you?
2711 A: It says here: 2 "Information [and then colon] that 3 Natives have a big bonfire illuminating 4 the road and gate area. They're using 5 vehicle headlights, cars, motorcycles 6 and/or ATV's [all terrain vehicles] to 7 illuminate westward." 8 At this time, Sierra 2, our other sniper 9 team were advising that the -- the Natives were out: 10 "The natives are aware that Sierra 2 is 11 out and to the south side of the road. 12 Dave and I are -- are laying low, just 13 to get a better feel again for what's 14 going on." 15 Q: And lots of sounds -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- vehicle, what's that refer to, 18 sir? 19 A: There was just lots of noise coming 20 from the east, the revving of engines, the fire itself, 21 and there was yelling going on as well. 22 Q: And the -- at this -- the top of the 23 -- the page that has 519 and page 33 at the bottom, it 24 says: 25 "Revving."
2721 And then I can't read the lines -- the 2 words after that, sir. 3 A: "Revving." 4 And then: 5 "The fire itself. Vague threats 6 yelled." 7 Q: And what does that refer to? 8 A: Well, with -- with the noise that was 9 going on, the vehicles were revving, there was a heavy 10 crackling from the fire, just the fire does in fact make 11 noise. 12 "Vague threats yelled and other yelling 13 going on as well." 14 Q: Did that -- did you hear this or was 15 this told to you by the ERT Team? 16 A: No, I -- I could hear voices to the 17 east. 18 Q: Okay. And then the -- there's a 19 note: 20 "The ERT Team." 21 A: Yes, two (2) men told us that an ATC, 22 all terrain cycle, all terrain vehicle, had come along 23 the beach westbound. A man, a Native, had got off and 24 wandered around cottages with a dog, and they described 25 it as a -- a shepherd or a German Shepherd dog, looking
2731 for police was the way they seemed to wonder. 2 So that basically told Dave and myself 3 that if people were out looking for us, we really had got 4 to be careful getting into position. 5 Q: And what kind of communications gear 6 did you have with you that evening? 7 A: I had my TRU Team issue portable 8 radio. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: And each member has an individual 11 issued portable radio and a new Eagle headset. A new 12 Eagle headset uses -- it's a bone vibration, so instead 13 of actually fitting into the ear, which would exclude 14 auditory, it sits on the temple, and the vibration 15 actually comes in through the ear as sound and yet you 16 can still hear through your ears. 17 Q: So that it gives you better -- your 18 better -- you have better auditory perception then, 19 because the -- the headset's not blocking your ears? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And the radio tracks -- the radio 22 frequency that you were on, was it a frequency that could 23 be heard by anybody? 24 A: No, only people on the TRU Team 25 basically, with that radio.
2741 Q: And so the -- you could communicate 2 with other TRU Team members or the TRU Team TAC; is that 3 correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And the TRU Team TAC was located in 6 what you described as the overflowing -- overflow parking 7 lot? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the TRU Team TAC was manned by 10 Acting Sergeant Kent Skinner and -- and Constable 11 Zupancic? 12 A: Zupancic was in the Tactical 13 Operations Centre. Skinner, as the Acting Staff 14 Sergeant, would have been more involved with dealing with 15 the Incident Commander. Whether he was in the TOC -- 16 Q: You don't know where Skinner was? 17 A: I -- I don't know. 18 Q: Okay. And then on -- back to page 19 519, after you speak to the ERT members, did you know the 20 two (2) ERT officers? 21 A: I don't remember who they were. 22 Realistically, I -- I knew most of the people from around 23 that area, but I can't remember. 24 Q: And prior to this -- when you went 25 out, did anyone tell you that John Carson had said that:
2751 "We're using TRU to go in and get an 2 eye. If they're just having a 3 campfire, let's leave them. Why go in 4 the dark?" 5 Did anybody tell you about that? 6 A: I don't remember that. 7 Q: And would -- if your mission was 8 simply to take a look, would you -- and if the -- the 9 people were doing nothing, would you have noted that in 10 your book at some point? I'm just trying to understand. 11 What was your mission when you were sent out? 12 A: Basically, it was to set an 13 observation point, to go and see what was going on -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: -- to be the eyes on the ground. 16 Q: Okay. And did you know what might 17 happen -- what was the plan after you went out? Did you 18 have any idea of what the plan was? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you know, when you went out on 21 East Parkway Drive, that there was consideration being 22 given to deploying the Crowd Management Unit? 23 A: I don't remember. 24 Q: You don't remember? 25 A: I don't remember.
2761 Q: And the -- had you worked with the 2 Crowd Management Unit as a member of the TRU Team before? 3 A: No, I hadn't. 4 Q: And so your mission was to go out and 5 observe and report back to the TRU Team TOC? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you were to observe which area? 8 A: Basically the area around the 9 entrance to the Park. 10 Q: And to -- the entrance to the 11 Provincial Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And had you been told, prior to going 14 out, that individuals had been seen in the sandy parking 15 lot outside the Provincial Park, earlier in the evening? 16 A: I don't remember. 17 Q: Okay. Then what did you do? You've 18 got: "Very slow moving now." 19 What does that refer to? 20 A: Yes, because the ERT members and the 21 other Sierra team had advised that people were out 22 looking for us. So that changes how quickly we can get 23 into a position. If we're compromised going into 24 position, then obviously it's -- it's a waste of time. 25 We're -- we're not able to see things
2771 undetected. So it's very slow moving to try and get into 2 position without getting caught, if that's a way to put 3 it; without being seen. 4 Q: And at the bottom then after, "very 5 slow moving now": 6 "Split from ERT, cross over laneway, 7 position 2." 8 A: Yes. And in my notebook, I'm sorry, 9 I'm pretty visual, but I drew a diagram of the scene so 10 that I could keep track of my movements and so on, so 11 that's what it refers to. 12 Q: And what you've drawn in the diagram 13 at page 33 of your notebook, Exhibit P-1599, there is the 14 area at the Army Camp Road where it meets East Parkway, 15 and off to the left, I take it, is the -- the road, the 16 sandy parking lot that leads up to Lake Huron; is that 17 correct? 18 The top part of your map. 19 A: I drew this map after having been in 20 this place in dark only, so it's very much by what I 21 remember of the time. So where you telling me the sandy 22 parking lot is I -- my understanding was that it's at the 23 intersection there of East Parkway and Army Camp. 24 Q: And what led -- what went off -- 25 you've got a T at the top there, what's on the left side
2781 of the T, do you recall? 2 A: Well that would lead to the lake, to 3 the beach. 4 Q: Yeah. And what -- was it a paved 5 four (4) lane highway, or what was it? 6 A: Well, I -- I know I've been there 7 with my family before, I think that's a -- a sand road or 8 something that goes down to the beach, but I -- I really 9 don't -- I can't say for sure. 10 Q: Thank you. And at the top of the -- 11 the drawing, sir, there's some words, some writing, I 12 can't read that. 13 A: Oh. I -- I've drawn a circle and 14 then put the word "Fire" in there. 15 Q: And is that the approximate location 16 of the fire, sir? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And using your map, can you tell us 19 what you did, and using your notes? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: I see that you've marked off where 22 you were dropped off, sir? 23 A: I did. I have the advantage that my 24 notebook is in colour, I actually used a blue pen to draw 25 my lines to and from, and a black pen for the -- the
2791 roads and such. So bear with me and I'll try and explain 2 this to you. 3 Q: Thank you very much, sir. 4 A: After -- from the drop-off point I 5 went to position 1, which would actually be just slightly 6 off the left edge of the page, where I met with the ERT 7 people. Went to position 2, which is right beside a 8 clump of bushes. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: I think that's relatively clear 11 there. And that's where we left our rucksacks. I think 12 we figured that, well, it's definitely a lot easier to -- 13 to crawl and move into position without having to carry 14 all the extra weight. 15 At that stage I noted lots of light coming 16 from the direction of the -- the Park. We had that 17 bonfire, vehicle headlights, motorcycle or all-terrain 18 vehicle, and also handheld jacklights, as they're called. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: We basically dropped the rucks there 21 and -- and went to ground. And, again, that's just 22 getting a feel for the area, basically quiet, listening, 23 looking, trying to feel for are there people out there 24 walking around, where do we have to go to from here. 25 Eventually I moved forward about 60 metres
2801 or thereabouts. I certainly crossed a laneway, and that 2 laneway had a light in it, and that light cast my shadow 3 almost out to the road. So I was certainly cognizant 4 that that might give me away if somebody was standing on 5 the road and could see my shadow. 6 And I've drawn a little -- just like a 7 circle or a dot with some lines radiating from it on 8 the -- 9 Q: Yes. And that's -- 10 A: -- left side, and that represents the 11 light. 12 Q: The light. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. Thank you. Then -- 15 A: So I went to ground then and I was 16 about to call Dave up, two (2) men in camouflage type 17 clothing walked from the road up that same laneway in 18 front of me. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: I had no cover at all; concealment 21 only. I was basically -- I guess hiding is the word. I 22 didn't want to be seen. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: I wasn't hiding behind a solid object 25 or anything, it was basically in shrubbery.
2811 Q: Now I just didn't understand, sir, 2 when you say that you, "Went to ground," you're about to 3 call Strickler, two (2) men in camouflage type clothing 4 came in -- came up the laneway in front of me, and on 5 your drawing, which position were you in at this point; 6 in position number 3? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I'm just checking in case I've made a 11 further reference. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Yes. Around three (3) -- you'll see 16 there's another laneway and I've drawn a -- I don't know 17 how you describe that, but to me that's where the bushes 18 or some shrubbery would be. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: So position 3 would be at the edge of 21 this next laneway, and that's where I got to. I didn't 22 get any further at that particular stage. 23 Q: Okay. And then what happened? 24 A: Well, I was about to call Dave 25 Strickler up to me. Basically, in a situation like this
2821 we did what we call a -- a caterpillar movement. 2 So I would move forward, having the night 3 vision, stop, and then bring Dave up to my position. I 4 would then move forward again, bring Dave up to me. That 5 was what we were planning to do, obviously. 6 But before I could call Dave up, obviously 7 people are out walking around and looking. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And you -- in -- in your notes you 10 have: 11 "One (1) man had a large [something] 12 hand held radio." 13 A: Hand held radio and I've put "walkie 14 talkie" in here. It was one of those very large radios. 15 Our portable radios are probably not much bigger than 16 this water bottle. 17 But this thing was like you would see in 18 the Hollywood movies of the Second World War. It was a 19 very large -- yes, it was a hand held radio, but it was a 20 large hand held radio. 21 Q: Yes. And what else? 22 A: Something long, and I wasn't sure if 23 it was a stick or a pole or a rifle or something, in his 24 other hand. He was wearing glasses, eye glasses and a 25 brimmed hat; either a brim or a peak.
2831 Basically, I tried to stay very low and 2 not to be seen. And eventually they went southbound back 3 down that laneway to the road, and then I lost sight of 4 them. 5 Q: Okay. Then what happened? 6 A: Around that time, the Tactical 7 Operations Centre, Zupancic, asked if it was okay to 8 cover the Crowd Management Unit, the CMU as they 9 advanced. 10 My response was basically, yes, but only 11 when they get to my position, because I'm not in a final 12 position yet. My final position, I think, would have 13 been with an eye on the Park and I put it in the next 14 line. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: At that stage I saw one (1) Native 17 walk westbound down the road, East Parkway Drive to 18 around where Strickler was, he was actually sort of 19 behind me now, but must have turned around because that 20 person then went back toward the Camp. 21 When I say "Camp", Camp/Park, at that 22 stage I returned to my position Number 2 and 4, where 23 those bushes are. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Where we had stashed our rucksacks.
2841 Q: So you returned, and was Constable 2 Strickler back at that same position? 3 A: Yes, yes. 4 Q: Okay. And then what happened, sir? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: We split ever so slightly. Dave went 9 just a little bit further to my left. And I've got a 10 hill marked in there. 11 Q: And where is -- 12 A: If you can see position 4 marked on 13 my map -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- it's slightly to the left and 16 slightly above it. It's a hill, and Dave went there as 17 basically for high ground, just to be able to see a 18 little bit further. 19 Q: And that's -- there's a little circle 20 that appears to have "hill" on it. 21 A: Yes, if you can read -- 22 Q: Written in -- 23 A: -- that, yes. 24 Q: Thank you. Then what happened, sir? 25 A: Through my Osprey night vision, I was
2851 able to see a -- a Native, the same Native I think, with 2 the walkie talkie and the long object, and he was walking 3 westbound towards the now advancing Crowd Management 4 Unit. 5 And I was aware that they were advancing, 6 I suppose, because I was listening on the radio and we 7 had TRU officers with the Crowd Management Unit. 8 Q: And the TRU officers with the Crowd 9 Management Unit, do you know which TRU officers were -- 10 were part of -- with the Crowd Management Unit? 11 A: I know that Beauchesne, Klym, Deane 12 and O'Halloran were part of that. 13 Q: And were they given the name, Alpha 14 team? Is that what they were called, or do you recall? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I don't remember that right now. 19 Q: Okay. Then what happened? 20 A: I think there was a concern about 21 this person, what did that -- the person with the radio 22 have in the other hand. And although the person did, in 23 fact, come into -- relatively into my view, there was a 24 telegraph pole or a large wooden something or other in 25 the area, so Murphy's Law says that that person will, of
2861 course, be just on the other side that I cannot quite 2 see. 3 So I've got a night vision scope, I'm 4 relatively close, but there's a pole in the way, so 5 that's basically where the person took a knee, or 6 stopped. 7 Q: And then there's a -- after the CMU 8 there's a word: 9 "[Something] with Osprey? 10 A: Give me a second here. Yes: 11 "Beauchesne with an Osprey." 12 So he was also equipped with a night 13 vision, sighted him, and the CMU stopped until Beauchesne 14 was able to call confirmation that the Native did not 15 have a rifle. 16 Q: Okay. Then what happened? This is 17 where you make the note about the telegraph pole. 18 A: Yes, that's correct. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: Now that we knew there was no weapon 21 threat the Crowd Management Unit advanced again. And I 22 saw that Native get out from behind the pole and -- and 23 go back towards the Park. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: At this stage Dave Strickler and I
2871 then advanced parallel to them and basically on the left 2 side. We stayed within the bushes and laneway just off 3 the road; we didn't walk on the road. And we ended up at 4 position 5, which to me is the -- the last house before 5 you get to that Army Camp Road or continuation thereof. 6 Q: And that's on your little drawing, 7 it's -- there appears to be -- it's hard to -- there's 8 some writing right by the house, closest to the extension 9 of Army Camp Road, as you've described it. Do you know, 10 on your unreduced copy of your notebook, what that -- 11 what the -- the letters are beside the little house? 12 A: Yes, I have a number "5" and then a 13 comma, a number "7". And then if you circle the house 14 counter-clockwise there's a number "6" down there close 15 to where the laneway would be. 16 Q: Okay. And the -- what does the 17 number "5" refer to? You've got here: 18 "Proceeded on left side of CMU to 19 position 5." 20 So you were just beside the house that's 21 shown on your little drawing? 22 A: Yes, page 35. It says: 23 "To position 5, beside a house." 24 Which is the one nearest the road, close 25 to the Park.
2881 Q: Yes? 2 A: Okay. And from that area, basically, 3 I was able to cover into the Park across the -- the 4 fence. I put in there to my twelve o'clock. Basically 5 whatever's straight in front of me is twelve o'clock. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: If it's directly behind it's six 8 o'clock. 9 Q: Yes. And so you're there at position 10 5, you're looking across the sandy parking lot into the 11 Park? 12 A: I don't know if it's across the sandy 13 parking lot, it's across a road or a path or something 14 anyway. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: An open area. 17 Q: Across an open area into the 18 Provincial Park, yes. And what do you see? 19 A: Very good illumination with all the 20 vehicle lights that were moving around and the bonfires. 21 I could see lots of people, lots of Natives gathering 22 and, yeah, a lot of yelling going on. I heard the word, 23 "cowards" a couple of times. Some -- 24 Q: And there's -- there's a line: 25 "Natives gathering and going towards
2891 gate." 2 What's that refer to? 3 A: Oh, okay. There's an opening around 4 where the fire was and I -- I put "gate" because that 5 seemed to be the -- the way through that fence area. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Whether there was an actual gate in 8 place or not, I'm sorry, hanging off post or whatever, I 9 -- I don't know, but it was an opening through which 10 people could go. 11 Q: Okay. And was the bonfire inside or 12 outside the Park? 13 A: Well, if -- if you look at my 14 diagram, I remember it as being just inside that fence 15 area, and that's -- that's where I put it into my 16 diagram. 17 Q: Yeah, inside the Park. Thank you. 18 And then what happened? 19 A: Well, some people were picking up 20 burning sticks and basically I was able to watch the 21 little streaks of fire, if you want to call it that, 22 being thrown from around the fire area towards -- it 23 would have been off to my right, where I knew the Crowd 24 Management Unit would have been. 25 Q: And at this point could you see the
2901 Crowd Management Unit? 2 A: I don't think so. 3 Q: Okay. And what did you do? 4 A: Well, my job was to watch out for -- 5 I want to say weapons, for firearms or anything that 6 might cause a -- a concern of lethality. So in my case, 7 yes, I'm -- I'm gathering intelligence and all the rest 8 but in this case there's a lot more going on than just 9 noting who the various people are. I couldn't tell that. 10 I was basically looking to see does this 11 person have a gun and if they don't, move on to the next 12 person, because it was a fairly large amount of people. 13 Q: So you -- and where were the people? 14 The people were on the inside of the Park and you're 15 looking from person to person to see if you could find a 16 firearm? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did you see any firearms? 19 A: I didn't see any firearms, no. 20 Q: And then at the top of page -- the 21 next page, it's page 36 I guess in your notebook. In my 22 copy it didn't come through. You've got: 23 "Happenings in my twelve o'clock, 24 looking for weapons/ [oblique stroke]." 25 I can't read that, what's the next word,
2911 sir? 2 A: "Happenings to my twelve o'clock." 3 And in bracket: 4 "(Looking for weapons threats)." 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And then close bracket. 7 Q: Then you've got a note: 8 "CMU backed away from Army Camp Road." 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: And at that stage I believed we were 12 moving away. So Dave and I circled around the house 13 counter-clock wise to position 6 that I mentioned a 14 little while ago. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: So on the -- give me a second here 17 for directions. Which would be then the west side of 18 that house I guess. 19 Q: And did you see the CMU move into the 20 open area in front of you and move towards the Provincial 21 Park? 22 A: No. Nothing ever happened in front 23 of me, it was all off to my right side. 24 Q: Okay. But on your right side did you 25 see the -- the CMU proceed off Army Camp Road and go
2921 towards the Park fence? 2 A: I didn't see any of that. 3 Q: You didn't see any of that. Okay. 4 And so you saw the CMU backed away. Where did they back 5 away from? 6 A: From wherever they were. I -- I 7 guess it was over the radio that I heard that the CMU was 8 backing up. So that's -- 9 Q: Okay. So you didn't see them, you -- 10 when you say -- when you say they backed away, you didn't 11 see them, you just heard they were backing away? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: We now are on the same wavelength. 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: And so you could not see the CMU, you 16 heard they were backing up, and then you moved to 17 position 6 with Constable Strickler? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And Constable Strickler was with you 20 at position 5? 21 A: Yes, he was. 22 Q: Okay. And then what happened, sir? 23 A: Then I heard on the radio that -- I 24 guess, that we were going -- moving forward again. So I 25 circled all the way around to the house, back to my
2931 original position. So I marked that as -- 2 Q: Position 7. 3 A: 7, yes. So 5 and 7 are the same 4 position. 5 Q: Thank you. And then what happened? 6 There's a reference: "On TRU radio?" 7 A: Yes. Basically there was one (1) 10- 8 92 -- 10-92, and the 10 Code means that we have 9 prisoner. 10 Q: And did you see any of the 11 interchange between the CMU and the protestors at the end 12 of Army Camp Road, by the Park fence at all? 13 A: No, I didn't. No, my concentration 14 was still at twelve o'clock, the people on the other side 15 of the fence line. 16 Q: And did you see the person being 17 arrested or simply hear about it over the radio? 18 A: I heard that we had one (1) prisoner, 19 that was it. 20 Q: That's it. Okay. And then what 21 happened? 22 A: At that stage I saw a yellow school 23 bus coming up to the -- the fire from within the Park 24 area. 25 Q: Yes.
2941 A: There was also a car being manoeuvred 2 behind the bus. And I say car as opposed to ATV just by 3 the fact that the headlights were spaced further apart. 4 ATV's are generally single or very close lights. I 5 couldn't describe the car but it was a car being 6 manoeuvred. But the bus was obscuring it. 7 And the bus crossed the edge of the fire 8 and crashed into what I'm going to refer to as a 9 dumpster, one of those garbage bins. 10 Q: And could you see the dumpster, sir, 11 from where you were? 12 A: Yes. I could see the bus and the 13 dumpster from my position, yes. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: And the dumpster got pushed but then 16 eventually dropped away and then the bus kept going. 17 Q: And then -- 18 A: I've forgotten -- when the bus had 19 originally stopped in that area I did see two (2) people 20 getting on the bus. And buses don't drive themselves, so 21 I figured well, there's a bus driver, two (2) people get 22 on, there's three (3) people in the bus at that stage as 23 it went forward. 24 Q: And where did the bus stop where you 25 saw the two (2) people get on the bus?
2951 A: that would be inside the park area. 2 Q: And how long were you looking at -- 3 how -- how quickly did this happen? 4 A: I didn't spend a lot of time looking 5 at such things. Does that person have a gun? No. Does 6 that person have a gun? No, move on. And that's as 7 quick as it was. 8 Q: And you didn't see anyone -- the two 9 (2) people that you saw getting on the bus, neither one 10 of them had a gun? 11 A: Not that I could see. 12 Q: Then what happened? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Well, the bus went into where I knew 17 the Crowd Management Unit to be, just from -- well, 18 possibly radio but, yeah, likely radio. 19 Q: Did you see -- 20 A: I knew it was going on to my right 21 side. 22 Q: Did you see the bus go down East 23 Parkway Drive towards the CMU? 24 A: I saw the bus go towards the CMU but 25 after that I -- I lost track of it.
2961 Q: Okay. And so where it says: 2 "Bus drove right into CMU." 3 You didn't see that? 4 A: No. No, I didn't actually see the 5 contact. 6 Q: Okay. And then you have a note -- 7 this is when you -- the note about the two (2) person 8 note. 9 "When it stopped initially by the 10 bonfire, I saw two (2) persons getting 11 on vehicle side door --" 12 A: "Via", by way of the side door. 13 Q: "Via side door, i.e., driver and two 14 (2) passengers. I didn't watch to see 15 if more [something] --" 16 A: "Got on". 17 Q: "-- or any got off." 18 Is that what it says? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: "I kept scanning Natives for 21 threats. Bus reversed." 22 And where you've got: 23 "I kept scanning Natives for threats." 24 I take it that you did not see any -- the 25 threats you're referring to were firearms?
2971 A: Firearms, yes. 2 Q: And what about Molotov cocktails, 3 were you looking for things like that? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: That certainly would have caused me 8 concern, but my -- my main goal was certainly to look for 9 firearms. 10 Q: And you didn't see any firearms? 11 A: I didn't. 12 Q: Okay. Then: 13 "Bus reversed." 14 Now, can you just read that, sir? 15 A: Yes. It says: 16 "Now somewhere at my three o'clock". 17 So again, if twelve o'clock is directly in 18 front of me, three is to my right, nine is to my left and 19 six is directly behind. 20 Q: And you didn't see the bus, but you 21 heard it, what you presumed to be at your three o'clock 22 position? 23 A: Yes. There were some bushes and 24 stuff to -- to my right and generally as a sniper we seem 25 to end up being as low as possible so we're not seen, but
2981 I don't -- I vaguely remember something off to my right. 2 Whether I caught the roof line or the bus or something to 3 my right, maybe, but I can't say for sure. 4 Q: Okay. And then: 5 "Somewhere -- now, somewhere at my 6 three o'clock and stopped, engine 7 running." 8 A: "Engine revving." 9 Q: "Revving." 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Then what does it say? 12 A: "It began to lurch forward." 13 Q: And what began to lurch forward; the 14 bus? 15 A: Yes, yes. 16 Q: And could you see the bus at this 17 point? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I don't think I could. I don't 22 remember. 23 Q: Okay. Perhaps we could just take a 24 five (5) minute break, Commissioner? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think
2991 that's a good idea. We'll take a short break. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 3 for five (5) minutes. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 4:03 p.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 4:18 p.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed. Please be seated. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Thank you, Commissioner. Before the 13 break I had just asked you about the bus and the note in 14 your -- in your notes at page 36 about "the bus began to 15 lurch forward" and I think you said that you could -- you 16 could not see the bus at this point? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: There -- there was a lot of stuff 21 going on at the time quite obviously and I -- I've put in 22 there, "somewhere to my three o'clock" because I know it 23 was happening off to my -- to my right side but I cannot 24 say that I saw the hood of the bus. I -- there was 25 something that made me aware of it but I'm searching
3001 right now. 2 Q: And then your next note is: 3 "I heard shots." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And at this point when you heard the 6 shots could you see the bus, where the bus was? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Somewhere in my mind I -- I have a -- 11 a glimpse of a -- of a roof or something like -- no more 12 than that, of the yellow roof of the bus. And I know 13 it's all happening off to my right side so I -- I guess I 14 must be able to see the bus but not in its entirety, just 15 a small portion of it. Yes, I know it -- it's -- it's 16 there somewhere but -- 17 Q: And your job at this point was still 18 to observe at the twelve o'clock position? 19 A: That didn't change. I was still 20 looking for people that had firearms. 21 Q: And the -- the shots, you've made a 22 note in your book: 23 "Seemed to come from the left side of 24 bus/CMU." 25 Then it says:
3011 "ERT [something]?" 2 A: Yes, I've crossed that out and my 3 initial so it's the bus/CMU conglomerate where the whole 4 mish-mash, where the whole thing got together I guess. 5 Q: But did you see this? You say, "the 6 whole thing got together." You were looking towards the 7 Park, did you see the bus and the officers together? 8 A: No. 9 Q: So that you're making an assumption 10 when you -- when the -- about the bus/CMU coming 11 together, that -- you're making the assumption they did 12 that on the road because you didn't see that? 13 A: I saw the bus leave the -- the Park 14 and drive into that area and radio communications and 15 otherwise would tell me that it did in fact reach that 16 but I did not see that. 17 Q: Did not see it? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And then how do you -- you say the 20 left side of the bus, how do you identify the left side 21 of the bus? 22 A: The left side of -- the altercation. 23 If you can just bear with me here, I heard something 24 starting to what I perceived as my left and then being 25 responded to, to my right, so if I turn my head maybe I'm
3021 looking at the -- I'm listening to the left edge of that 2 altercation resounded by the right. 3 Basically the -- the first thing that I 4 heard shots was from the left edge and the second 5 response -- second part was to the right edge. 6 Q: So that if you -- I'm -- I'm still 7 trying to understand what you mean by that. 8 A: Okay. Something... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: You say the -- in your note: 13 "The less -- left side of the bus." 14 Now, when you wrote down, "left side of 15 the bus" did you mean on -- if the bus was moving 16 forward, on the driver's side of the bus? 17 A: No. I'm referring to the bus/CMU 18 conglomerate. So I'm trying to think how else I can 19 describe it that makes a little more sense to you. 20 I know an incident just happened to my 21 right side. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: I must have turned my head because 24 I've used my -- my ears to determine that what has 25 happened seemed to start to -- to my left and being
3031 responded from my right. 2 Q: So that you're looking -- when you -- 3 when you're making these observations, the left and the 4 right, you're looking south towards the -- or southwest 5 towards the road East Parkway Drive? 6 A: Southward, yes. 7 Q: And so that the shots come from -- 8 from your left side as you're looking southward and the - 9 - the first shots, and the second shots come from the 10 right side? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you recognize the types of 13 shells being -- the shots that were being fired? 14 A: I made a note of that. And a lot of 15 weapons sound very different and I think we were fairly 16 new with the -- the Sig Sauer pistol that the OPP was 17 using, a forty .40 caliber. And I remember thinking that 18 that -- that round barked like a dog. It barked compared 19 to some of the other weapons. 20 Bear with me, please. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I -- I can't say what weapons were 25 fired in what order, or anything like that, but
3041 definitely there were -- there were differences in 2 sounds. 3 Q: And did you hear a H&K 33? 4 A: I don't remember. 5 Q: And then at the top of the next page, 6 at page 36 I guess it is: 7 "Radio traffic regarding gun or guns." 8 Then in bracket there's some -- some words 9 that I can't read: 10 "TRU net --" 11 A: Yes. It's at top -- top of page 37: 12 "Radio traffic regarding gun or guns." 13 And then in brackets: 14 "(TRU net)." 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Standard -- standard operating 17 procedure within TRU was that, even with a vehicle stop 18 with in fact, if everything is normal and suddenly a gun 19 appears, the first thing that a person will yell is, Gun. 20 It -- it ups the ante somewhat. You know 21 now what -- what the threat is, what we're facing. 22 Police don't move, it would most likely be the next 23 thing. 24 But basically one (1) word, Gun, or, 25 Knife, would be enough to tell people what the situation
3051 has now become. 2 Q: Okay. And at this point you say: 3 "I'd lost sight of bus/CMU owing to my 4 concentration on twelve o'clock." 5 A: Yes. So I'm back now looking again 6 to the -- the Park area in front of me; again still 7 scanning for firearms. 8 Q: And you saw no firearms? 9 A: I saw no firearms. 10 Q: And then what happened? 11 A: Then the bus came into my view again. 12 It backed up and pushing some large object, and that 13 might have been that same dumpster from before, I really 14 don't know, but it pushed something which became 15 disentangled, fell away, and -- and the bus continued 16 back in towards the Park. 17 At this stage was another flurry of 18 activity, as if there hadn't been already. But, just 19 about every person in the Park seemed to have something 20 in their hands. And I was again looking, Is that a 21 rifle. I saw sticks, I saw poles, I saw a fire axe, but 22 again my concentration was for rifles or firearms. 23 Q: And where were these people? The 24 people were in the Park? 25 A: Maybe from around that fire area.
3061 Maybe from further behind, I don't know. But I just 2 noticed that a lot of people seemed to run from my right 3 towards my left, towards the lake area basically within 4 the Park area -- 5 Q: But they were on the inside of the 6 Park? 7 A: Inside the Park, yes. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And then returned back towards my 10 right again. 11 Q: Inside the Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And these people seemed to be 14 carrying sticks and one (1) person a fire axe? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: But you looked at them and you saw no 17 firearms? 18 A: Yes. My determination was strictly, 19 Is it a firearm threat or not. And not in this case -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- in these cases. 22 Q: And then you've got: 23 "After the shooting many Natives ran to 24 my left and seemed to return, 25 momentarily, to my right."
3071 That was after the -- the -- the sounds of 2 the shooting that you heard? 3 A: Yes, yeah. 4 Q: The people that you saw inside the 5 Park ran away up towards the lake, away from the 6 intersection at Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive; is 7 that fair? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then after the shooting stopped, 10 they came back? 11 A: It might be better to say that after 12 the shooting subsided, a lot of people ran off to my left 13 and then ran back to my right. 14 Q: Okay. Then what happened? 15 A: Hmm. 16 Q: You indicate: 17 "I was concerned that they were getting 18 firearms." 19 A: Yes. And I scanned every person that 20 I could. 21 Q: And you saw no firearms? 22 A: I saw no firearms. 23 Q: And then what happened? 24 A: Then I noted three (3) people 25 carrying, and I've noted it to be a -- a body and I say
3081 that well, because unfortunately, a body is a very 2 specific thing. And there was a -- I can't remember if 3 it was two (2) people carrying a leg and one (1) an arm, 4 or two (2) carrying an arm and one (1) a leg or what, but 5 basically three (3) people were -- were moving what I 6 believed a body to the area by the bonfire. 7 And they -- they dropped that -- 8 Q: And did -- 9 A: -- person into -- not into the fire, 10 but into that area. And I was quite surprised that 11 nobody -- when I saw dropped, I took a knee beside that 12 person to do first aid, because if one of my fellow 13 officers had been hit or a civilian had a collision, a 14 motor vehicle collision, had been hit, I think I would 15 have dropped to check to see if there were bodily signs 16 or any of that sort of stuff. 17 Q: And the -- did you see where this 18 person was picked up from? Did you see the person -- 19 A: No, I didn't. Somewhere to my right, 20 but I don't know. 21 Q: So that were -- where you were 22 looking, you could see the -- the fire inside the Park, 23 but you couldn't see where the person was picked up? 24 You just saw the person come into your 25 view being --
3091 A: Being carried. 2 Q: -- three (3) people coming in with 3 what you presumed was a body? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then what happened? 6 A: Well, I heard a few yells of, 7 Murderers, which further convinced me that it was, in 8 fact, a person. 9 Q: And did you see a vehicle come up to 10 that person who was -- what you presumed was a person on 11 the ground? 12 A: No. Around that stage we were 13 basically moving out. We had some radio transmission 14 that we're moving back. 15 And there were headlights and jack lights 16 and basically lights sweeping our positions. And 17 basically Dave and I had to crawl out of the position 18 that we were at and once we got behind the house and were 19 able to get up and -- and basically move back. 20 And I guess the whole Crowd Management 21 Unit and TRU team people moved back down the road at that 22 stage. 23 Q: And you've -- on the drawing at page 24 33, you have drawn on the route back, I take it, although 25 it's not in different colour in this particular -- in the
3101 photocopy. 2 But you end up at position 8, is that how 3 I read this, sir? 4 A: Yes. And then we back -- actually, 5 we walked back down the road. 6 Q: And you've got: 7 "Radio traffic. We were moving back. 8 Headlights and jack lights sweeping our 9 position." 10 And that was from the inside of the Park? 11 What was that -- 12 A: From generally -- 13 Q: -- from -- 14 A: -- in the bonfire area. I'm not sure 15 exactly where they originated, but -- 16 Q: And -- 17 A: -- a lot of light moving around. 18 Q: And all along the Park fence; have I 19 read that? 20 A: Yes. The lights were sweeping 21 basically where we were plus the Park fence as well. 22 Q: And: 23 "I had to crawl back out of position. 24 Once behind house..." 25 A: Strickler, S-T-R.
3111 Q: "And I quickly -- 2 A: "And I" 3 Q: "-- returned to --" 4 A: Our rucks. 5 Q: Your rucksacks, and then met up with 6 TRU cover team and S2 at original driveway of drop off 7 position 8. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the CMU was now west of you, 10 about 300 metres -- 30 metres? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And what did you do? 13 A: Basically went back to the staging 14 area. I walked backwards, keeping an eye down the road 15 in case people were coming out following us. 16 And basically we TRU officers staying 17 together were, I don't know if a buffer is the word, but 18 we -- we were ahead of the ERT -- ahead. 19 The ERT people were moving back down the 20 road and we were between the ERT, CMU people, and the -- 21 where the whole confrontation had just taken place. 22 So I -- I basically walked backwards down 23 the road watching where we had just come from. 24 Q: And then -- and no one followed you 25 back?
3121 A: I didn't see anybody following us 2 back. 3 Q: Now, before we go on to what happened 4 next, there is -- on the easel behind you, sir, there is 5 a drawing. And I believe that was a drawing prepared by 6 you on -- the handwriting on it is prepared by you on 7 September 27th, 1995. Is that your signature at the top? 8 A: It's my signature, yes. 9 Q: And perhaps there's a handheld mic, 10 Sergeant Irvine, that's to your right. And could you 11 just describe on the drawing and perhaps we could mark 12 this drawing as the next exhibit? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1600, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1600: Topographical map of 16 Ipperwash Provincial Park 17 marked and signed by Mr. 18 James Irvine September 27, 19 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: It will be P-1600. And this was 23 drawn -- your signature appears and it was -- it appears 24 to be at 16:14 on September 27th, 1995? 25 A: That's what it shows.
3131 Q: And the bus -- the mic's not working. 2 Okay. I think it should be working now, sir. 3 A: 123, yes. 4 Q: And so I -- the question I'd asked 5 that you responded to is that it was drawn on September 6 27th, 1995? 7 A: I don't remember the date but it's 8 showing up there by my signature. 9 Q: And on the right-hand side of the 10 drawing, as you look at it, there's a square and the 11 note: 12 "Bus drove up to this position and 13 stopped. Two (2) people got on just as 14 it stopped." 15 And that shows the bus to the east of the 16 Park fence; is that correct? 17 A: This is the Park fence. Yes, the bus 18 is just east of that. 19 Q: And this is the Park fence, is the -- 20 the number of -- the row of -- line of circles that you 21 just pointed to? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then the -- when the bus went out 24 did you see a car? 25 A: I'd seen the car manoeuvring behind
3141 the bus. When it went -- when the bus went out, no, I 2 lost track of the car. 3 Q: And you've got a note behind the bus 4 and an "X": 5 "General area that I last saw a moving 6 car just prior to school bus leaving 7 the Park." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then there's the next note: 10 "General area where I first saw bus 11 pushing dumpster for a few metres." 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And then out to the west of the Park 14 fence: 15 "Rough area that I last saw bus. I 16 went back to watching Natives in Park." 17 So that there's an "X" partway out into 18 the -- to the west of the Park fence and that's the -- 19 the point where you last saw the bus? 20 A: That's correct, yes. 21 Q: And then you're identified as on the 22 left-hand side there is a line that runs through the 23 elevation one eighty-five point one (185.1), cottage or 24 home. And there's an "X" at the lower right-hand 25 side as you look at the picture?
3151 A: Yes. This "X" would be basically my 2 positions 5 and 7, I think it was, in my notebook. 3 Q: And the note reads: 4 "This was my location from the time the 5 bus..." 6 Could you read that on the large map? 7 A: "This was my location from the time 8 the bus left the Park until I saw the body dropped in the 9 Park." 10 Q: All right. And then on the left, if 11 you go back to the area just to the west of the Park 12 fence there's an -- an "X" that's along the path of the 13 bus and it's -- there's a note. Could you read that 14 note? 15 A: The note here says: 16 "This is where I first noticed three 17 (3) persons carrying what I thought was 18 a person's body. 19 Q: And then there's a -- an "X" on the 20 inside with a note: 21 "Large bonfire." 22 And that "X" was on the -- inside the 23 Park? 24 A: Yes, just inside the -- the fence. 25 Q: Okay. And then there's a small note
3161 and there's an "X" with a line, and the line reads -- can 2 you read -- tell us what that -- 3 A: That would be the location which is 4 fairly close to the bonfire. 5 "Location where I saw the three (3) 6 persons drop the body." 7 Q: And then the last note that you've 8 made; there's an arrow going north towards the lake, and 9 you've got a note. 10 A: And that says: 11 "Direction of travel [of the] -- the 12 three (3) dropped the body." 13 Q: They moved towards the parking lot 14 there or -- 15 A: I'm just having a hard time reading 16 the writing here. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: "Direction of travel after the three 19 (3) dropped the body." 20 Q: And the -- so that from the position 21 you were in at position 5 and 7, you were concentrating - 22 - you were looking towards the bonfire; is that correct? 23 A: No. My position was here and I was 24 looking more to the -- the north end of the bonfire. The 25 bonfire was certainly within my scope of view but I was
3171 concentrating more on the area slightly to the north of 2 it. 3 Q: So you were actually concentrating on 4 the area directly in front of you and the area north of 5 the bonfire? 6 A: Yes. That was my primary 7 consideration, yes. 8 Q: And it would be -- if you drew a line 9 from you over into the Park, it would hit -- there's a -- 10 where it says: 11 "Direction of travel..." 12 Was that sort of the area you were looking 13 toward? 14 A: Yes. My twelve o'clock would have 15 been where that notation is: 16 "Direction of travel after the three 17 (3) dropped the body." 18 Q: Thank you. Now, when you got back to 19 the TOC -- you can sit down, Sergeant Irvine. 20 When you got back to the TOC what 21 happened? 22 A: Basically we had to consider our 23 security in case of anything else happening, so Dave 24 Strickler and I basically went to the -- to the north, I 25 guess it would be, to the -- basically to the beach and
3181 to watch out for anybody that might be coming down the 2 beach towards us from the direction of the Park. 3 Q: And did you remain there for the 4 balance of the night? 5 A: Yes, I did, until we were relieved. 6 Q: And you were relieved by the Barry 7 TRU team? 8 A: Yes. Rick Barry and Alex Zapotoczny. 9 Q: And you went off-duty at 08:00? 10 A: That's what my notes say, yes. 11 Q: And before you went up to the beach 12 and the OP, where it says in your notes: 13 "Then set up OP on beach." 14 That's observation post? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Before -- 17 A: Observation point. 18 Q: -- before you went up to the beach, 19 when you got back to the overflow parking lot where the 20 TOC was located, did you have a discussion with Kent 21 Skinner or the other -- and the other members of the TRU 22 team? 23 A: I don't remember. 24 Q: You don't remember. Did you have a 25 discussion about -- do you recall having any discussion
3191 with the Incident Commander John Carson? 2 A: I don't remember. 3 Q: And during the incident, the whole 4 period of time that you were down -- deployed down 5 towards the Provincial Park and on the way back, did you 6 ever see one (1) of the protestors with a firearm in 7 their hand? 8 A: No, I did not. 9 Q: And did you hear, during the course 10 of the -- when the school bus was -- had gone past you 11 down East Parkway Drive, did you hear a shotgun blast? 12 A: I -- 13 Q: Is that a "no"? 14 A: -- I don't remember anything like 15 that. 16 Q: And would you agree with me that a 17 shotgun blast would have been something quite 18 significant? 19 A: In normal circumstances I -- I'd say 20 yes, but after the amazing stuff that happened this 21 night, maybe not. 22 Q: But you don't remember hearing a 23 shotgun blast? 24 A: No, I don't. 25 Q: And if I could ask you to turn to Tab
3201 10. This is a copy, Sergeant Irvine, of Exhibit P-476, 2 which are the notes of Constable Rick Zupancic. And have 3 you had an opportunity to look at these three (3) page -- 4 four (4) pages of notes, sir? 5 A: I saw these last night for the first 6 time. 7 Q: And did you take a look at them last 8 night? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I understand that you were called 11 Spud? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And 'Farmer' was your partner, Mr. 14 Strickler? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And it appears that Mr. Strickler 17 radioed to you at -- according to Mr. Zupancic, Constable 18 Zupancic, at 22:19: 19 "Farmer for Spud. Separated for a 20 minute. Skinner instructs for them to 21 link up." 22 Do you recall that happening? 23 A: I -- I remember telling you, just a 24 few minutes ago, that we had separated; it may have been 25 at that stage, but I don't remember the radio
3211 conversation. 2 Q: Okay. And then there's a radio 3 conversation at 22:20: 4 "Spud to Farmer, two (2) people on road 5 near your [something]. Do not move." 6 And you told us about the people on the 7 road? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Do you remember any of these 10 conversations? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Do these notes assist you? Some of 15 them you've told us about, but do you remember any of the 16 specific conversations, sir? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: And if you go down, I'll just run 22 through some of them. At 22:22 there's a report: 23 "Crowd control moving to roadway with 24 [something, then] Spud-Farm, okay to 25 move. Spud: Negative [something]
3221 location, two (2) persons." 2 A: It looks like -- it looks like lost 3 location of two (2) persons. 4 Q: Person. And then there's, down 5 22:27, Spud tells Farm to freeze. And from your notes, 6 you told us a few minutes ago that was something that -- 7 you did tell him to stop at some point? 8 A: Yes, because the -- one of the 9 Natives, the one with the radio had actually got between 10 us somewhere or other, so it was not safe for either one 11 of us to move. 12 Q: And then 22:28: 13 "[something] Spud, two (2) people near 14 me. Gone towards house. They have a 15 radio with them." 16 And the -- do you recall that? Well, it 17 doesn't help -- does this add to anything of what you've 18 already told us? 19 A: I don't think it really adds 20 anything, but basically those are the types of 21 conversation that we normally have on a call. 22 Q: And if I could ask you to turn back 23 to your notes at Tab 6, Exhibit P-1599. 24 Excuse me. If I could ask you, please, to 25 turn to Tab 11. This is Inquiry Document 2005582.
3231 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And again, this is a photocopy of 4 what I am instructed are your notes. Is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And it's your notes for September 7th 7 and the days following down to September 20th. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: The last page of my document ends on 12 21 September. 13 Q: Okay. And I would ask that this 14 group of notes be made the next exhibit. 15 THE REGISTRAR: That is Tab 11, sir? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, sir. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1601, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1601: Document Number 2005582. 20 Handwritten notebook entries 21 of James Irvine, September 22 06-21, 1995. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Now, if I look at -- on Thursday
3241 September 7th it indicates that you're on -- "14:00 on." 2 What's that refer to? 3 A: That usually is on-duty. 4 Q: On duty? 5 A: Yes, the start of my shift. 6 Q: And do you recall when on -- you made 7 the notes that we marked Exhibit 1599? You indicated 8 that you had made your notes up to -- around nine o'clock 9 or 21:14 the evening of September 6. And then the 10 balance of your notes were made later, and I think you 11 said you thought you made them on September the 7th. 12 And do you recall when you made them on 13 September the 7th? Was it before you went on-duty or 14 after you went on-duty? 15 A: I -- I don't remember, but I did 16 finish work at eight o'clock that morning and had been up 17 all night, so likely sleep was my first priority. 18 Q: And but you -- so you can't remember 19 today when you made the notes? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And then what did you do on September 22 the 7th? 23 A: We went to Grand Bend to meet up with 24 Norm Peel, the lawyer. 25 Q: And when you say, "We went to Grand
3251 Bend," who's "we"? 2 A: Well, we, the members of the TRU Team 3 that were in the same accommodation. 4 Q: And was the whole TRU Team in the 5 same accommodation? Do -- do you have any independent 6 recollection today as to who went? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: And then you met with Mr. -- Mr. Peel 9 and then it says: 10 "Went to Forest and a briefing." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the briefing is about the ERT 13 Command Post: 14 "Barrie TRU and ERT Command Post 15 swarmed at parking lot. Some vehicles 16 burned. Withdrawal to Forest." 17 Have I read that correctly? 18 A: Yes, you have. 19 Q: And so you went on-duty for the night 20 shift? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And your job was to act as a -- an 23 immediate action plan team in case any of the uniformed 24 ERT checkpoints need rescue or support? 25 A: That's correct, yes.
3261 Q: And you've noted it was a quiet 2 night? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you were relieved by the Barrie 5 team and were off-duty on September 8th at 9:30 in the 6 morning? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then there's a note, Friday 9 September the 8th you're on-duty at 12:30. 10 And there's a note: 11 "Bugout of accommodation." 12 Can you -- what's this about? 13 A: To me a bugout is a very hasty 14 evacuation. The next line shows: 15 "A threat of Natives coming to take 16 over our accommodation at Pinery Park, 17 in general -- [I'm sorry], our 18 accommodation and Pinery Park, in 19 general." 20 So we very quickly gathered up all of our 21 equipment and -- and left and went to Forest itself. 22 Q: And then: 23 "Witness Slomer swearing in by Chief 24 Superintendent Coles?" 25 A: Yes, Ted Slomer, our medic, who had
3271 been with us for a considerable amount of time, was not 2 yet an auxiliary constable. So it was sort of 3 interesting that Chief Superintendent Coles would swear 4 him in individually, not part of a big ceremony, because 5 they're basically in -- in great support of, not just 6 ourselves, but anybody that's injured that he can do help 7 to, and he hasn't been recognized I think, up until this 8 stage. 9 So that's -- that's all that note is 10 referring to. 11 Q: And then: 12 "To Sarnia, food." 13 And did you move to Sarnia? 14 A: I've got we went back to Forest 15 again, but I think we ended up staying in Sarnia for 16 several more nights. 17 Q: And then -- 18 A: Or days. 19 Q: -- it appears that over the next 20 number of days you were assigned to deal with the APC, 21 the armoured personnel carrier; is that correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And at some point in time you were 24 interviewed by the -- by Detective Donaldson? 25 A: That's correct.
3281 Q: And if you could turn to Tab 12, is 2 that -- it's Inquiry Document 1000333? 3 A: That's the number that I have, yes. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: That's not the actual written 6 document though, this is a -- somebody has transcribed 7 it. 8 Q: It's a typed script -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- that at the back there's a -- a 11 handwritten document. And is that the handwritten 12 document you're referring to? 13 A: Yes, it is. 14 Q: And, in fact, the handwritten 15 document, you sign on it on the last page? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And perhaps -- is the telephone 18 number on the first page a personal telephone number or a 19 business telephone number; on the first page of the 20 document? 21 A: That's a business telephone number. 22 Q: And the -- when you -- you were 23 interviewed by Detective Constable Donaldson on September 24 9th, 1995? 25 A: Yes. It's Russ Donaldson. It's
3291 transcribed here as B, for Bravo, Donaldson, but it was 2 actually Russ. 3 Q: Russ Donaldson? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 6 the next exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1602, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1602: Document Number 1000333. 10 Typed and handwritten OPP 11 statement of James Irvine, 12 interviewed by R. Donaldson, 13 September 09, 1995. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And then I understand you were also, 17 on the 19th of December 1995, if you could go to Tab 13, 18 interviewed by the SIU? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And at Tab 13 we have Inquiry 21 Document 1000334. And this is a transcript of the 22 interview, as I understand it, done by the Ontario 23 Provincial Police. 24 And at Tab 14 there is a -- the same 25 interview transcribed, it's Inquiry Document 1002724,
3301 transcribed by the SIU; is that correct? 2 Is that your understanding? 3 A: I don't know who transcribed which. 4 Q: And you've listened to the tape and 5 looked at the -- at the transcripts, and it's my 6 understanding that the transcript at Tab 13 is the more 7 accurate rendition of the interview? 8 A: I can't comment to that right now 9 without looking through them and comparing them. 10 Q: But the -- but these were -- I had 11 been instructed, Commissioner, by Ms. Jones, that the 12 transcript at item 13, which I had thought the Witness 13 had listened to the tape, was better than the transcript 14 at -- at Tab 14. And I haven't compared them, but -- and 15 you haven't compared them either? 16 A: I've not compared these two (2) right 17 now, no. 18 Q: And have you listened to the tape 19 recently? 20 A: I listened to the tape as I read 21 along with one or the other, I don't know which one it 22 was. 23 Q: Well -- 24 MS. KAREN JONES: It was at Tab 13. 25
3311 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: I'm instructed by Ms. Jones that it 3 was at Tab 13. 4 And the -- and the transcript at Tab 13, 5 was it accurate? 6 A: I'd say relatively accurate. Every 7 now and again I'll read the word 'inaudible' and 8 listening to the tape, reading along with it, it's quite 9 apparent to me what was actually said, but obviously not 10 to the transcriber; but relatively accurate. 11 Q: Okay. I would ask that this 12 document, with that qualification, Inquiry Document 13 1000334, be marked the next exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1603, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1603: Document Number 1000334. 17 SIU, audio/video statement of 18 Constable James Irvine, 19 December 19, 1995. 20 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And it's at Tab -- 22 THE REGISTRAR: 13. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- 13. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
3321 Q: Now, at Tab 15 there's a copy of 2 Inquiry Document 1004702 and it's dated February 24th, 3 1998. And this is a document prepared, it would appear, 4 by the SIU. 5 Do you recall being interviewed by the SIU 6 on September -- excuse me, February 14 -- 24th, 1998? 7 A: I re -- I recall being interviewed, 8 but I can't specify it was that date. 9 Q: Okay. And were you given a copy of 10 this document, Inquiry Document 1004702? Let me do it 11 this way -- 12 A: I don't remember. 13 Q: Could you turn to page 3. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Is that your signature? 19 A: That's my signature, yes. 20 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 21 the next exhibit. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1604, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1604: Document Number 1004702. 25 Statement of James Irvine to
3331 SIU, February 24 1998. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And if you could pick up the notes, 5 Sergeant Irvine, the loose notes that were on the inside 6 of the front, and there's an entry -- the last two (2) 7 pages have entries on September 11th then 12th, and then 8 there's an entry September 16th, 1997. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And there's a reference 04, I must 11 have read that correctly. 12 At the bottom of the page, can you read 13 the entry that's there: 14 "09:00 interview at Peel's." 15 A: Peel's, yes. 16 Q: And then at the top of the page: 17 "Went over taped SIU interview, 18 December '95, to fill in and correct 19 transcription." 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what does that refer to? 22 A: I listened to my tape as I was 23 reading the typed transcription to make corrections, to 24 fill in those inaudibles and other words that were 25 incorrectly put.
3341 Q: And did the -- do you recall today if 2 it was the transcript that appears at Tab 12, Exhibit P- 3 1602? 4 A: I don't remember. 5 Q: Okay. Then if you turn to Tab 16, 6 there's an Affidavit, it's Inquiry document 2005326. And 7 I would ask that you turn to page -- the third page. 8 And is that your signature on the third 9 page? 10 A: Yes, it is. 11 Q: And can you -- this document was 12 sworn on August the 4th, 1998. And I understand you 13 looked for your notes for August the 4th and you couldn't 14 find any notes related to the signing of this Affidavit? 15 A: I did look through my notes and I 16 don't have any reference to this. 17 Q: And can you tell us how the -- this 18 Affidavit came about? 19 A: I don't remember. 20 Q: You don't remember? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Do you remember being interviewed by 23 a man by the name of Piers? 24 A: Ron Pier (sic), yes. 25 Q: Yes. And he was, as I understand it,
3351 a former OPP officer? 2 A: Yes, I understand he was a deputy 3 commissioner or something like that. 4 Q: And did you know him when he was with 5 the Force? 6 A: No, I did not. 7 Q: And do you recall Mr. Piers 8 interviewing you? 9 A: Yes, I do. 10 Q: And after he interviewed you, did 11 this Affidavit arise out of the interview with Mr. Piers, 12 or do you know? 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: Okay. Perhaps we could mark that 15 Affidavit the next exhibit. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1605, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1605: Document Number 2005326. 19 Affidavit of James A. Irvine, 20 sworn August 04, 1998. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Excuse me for a moment, Commissioner. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
3361 2 Q: Now, I understand that you purchased 3 a T-shirt that was created after the events at Ipperwash 4 on September 4th to 6th? 5 A: Yes, I did. 6 Q: And the T-shirt that you purchased 7 had a logo similar to the logo on the screen? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that's -- that's a copy of 10 Exhibit P-1494, Commissioner, the logo that's on the 11 screen and it's off the T-shirt that's marked Exhibit P- 12 1497. 13 And did you see any other T-shirts that 14 were created as a result of the events at Ipperwash? 15 A: I don't remember seeing any others. 16 Q: Did you see -- do you recall seeing a 17 T-shirt that had a OPP shoulder flash, the words, "ERT" 18 and "TRU" and a feather, white feather below it lying on 19 its side? 20 A: I saw a -- a version of that over the 21 last couple of days but -- 22 Q: But not before that? 23 A: -- but I don't remember it before 24 that, no. 25 Q: Okay. And when did you purchase the
3371 T-shirt? 2 A: I -- I don't remember the time. 3 Q: And from whom did you purchase the T- 4 shirt? 5 A: I don't remember that. 6 Q: Did you -- we understand the T-shirt 7 was created by Constable Bill Klym who identified himself 8 as having done that. Did you buy the T-shirt from him? 9 A: I don't remember who I bought it 10 from. 11 Q: And did you see the T-shirt before 12 you purchased it? 13 A: I don't remember. 14 Q: And why did you buy the T-shirt? 15 A: To me the T-shirt represented the 16 fact that we had survived a -- a very traumatic incident. 17 I'm going to take you back before -- I'm not sure what 18 year but before the -- the whole -- 19 Q: Perhaps you could -- 20 A: Excuse me. 21 Q: -- just make sure. You can move that 22 microphone in front of you and you can pull it closer, 23 Sergeant Irvine, I want you to be comfortable. 24 A: Okay. Before the -- the events of 25 Ipperwash on this particular night there had been a --
3381 I'm not going to call it a rift but the -- the TRU and 2 ERT members -- I don't even want to call it a -- I'm just 3 trying to find the right words for this, but there was 4 not a -- a closeness between the two (2) units. 5 We in TRU actually felt, I know I 6 certainly did, that the OPP was bringing people in to do 7 basically our job with much less training, much less 8 experience, much less equipment, which could actually put 9 them in harm's way. We were basically up to the level of 10 hostage rescue. 11 And it's all in the -- the police 12 standards right now. And we were concerned. I was 13 concerned as were my colleagues that on some of these 14 major gun calls in northern Ontario ERT members being 15 used to do what is basically a TRU function so there was 16 a -- a concern I guess that ERT was being brought in to 17 do that sort of work. 18 And to me we ended up working together 19 very well on this night where a lot of people were trying 20 to do a lot of harm to us. And basically somebody drives 21 a school bus at you it's not to say hello, it's death or 22 serious bodily harm I think was the -- the fear. And yet 23 none of us died. We all survived that. 24 So to me that was -- this symbol 25 represents the fact that we and ERT survived people
3391 trying to kill us. 2 Q: And did you -- when you looked at it, 3 do you recognize the TRU Team symbol? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the ERT is represented by what 6 appears to be an anvil and you recognize that? 7 A: That's the way it appears, yes. 8 Q: And the arrow that appears to be 9 broken by the ERT symbol against the ERT, what did that 10 represent to you when you saw the T-shirt? 11 A: That somebody was using weapons to 12 try and kill us. 13 Q: And the -- that's what the arrow 14 meant, the broken arrow meant to you? 15 A: Yes, that people were trying to kill 16 us that night. 17 Q: And with respect to this T-shirt, did 18 you wear this T-shirt in public? 19 A: I don't remember. 20 Q: Do you still have the T-shirt? 21 A: No, I don't. I did in fact look for 22 it last week, but I don't have it anymore. 23 Q: Do you know when you got rid of it 24 or...? 25 A: I got no idea.
3401 Q: And do you have other T-shirts? 2 A: I've got unfortunately drawers full 3 of other T-shirts. 4 Q: And what are these T-shirts from? 5 A: My TRU Basic Course in 1988 and 6 basically every TRU course that I've assisted in which 7 probably would have been every one thereafter when I 8 would go to -- to help as an instructor. All my sniper 9 courses. I've been to mountain warfare school; I have 10 several T-shirts from there. Some projects that we did, 11 I've seen T-shirts I've -- I've had T-shirts from some 12 like major drug raids, warrants, that sort of stuff. I - 13 - I have a -- 14 Q: Have you ever had a T-shirt from an 15 incident where a police officer died? 16 A: I've got a -- a T-shirt from the 17 Akwesasne incident of 1990. 18 Q: And at Akwesasne were you deploy -- 19 were you down at Akwesasne? 20 A: Yes, I was, from the beginning of May 21 until -- well, a considerable part of the summer. 22 Q: And the T-shirt was created, was it - 23 - was it a TRU team T-shirt? 24 A: No, it wasn't. The -- the T-shirt 25 had several patches -- when I say "patches," the shoulder
3411 flashes -- there was an OPP shoulder flash, RCMP, Surete 2 du Quebec, New York State Police, there might even be one 3 (1) or two (2) more, I don't remember. There might even 4 have the Akwesasne Mohawk Police, I'm not sure. 5 But basically they were linked together by 6 an arrow that went through each one of the patches, so 7 they were stung out left to right with this arrow joining 8 them or going through them. 9 Q: And these represented the police 10 forces that were at Akwesasne? 11 A: Yes. They were representative of 12 those services that were there. 13 Q: And at -- were you there at 14 Akwesasne, after the Quebec -- Surete du Quebec police 15 officer was killed? 16 A: I know that it happened prior to the 17 -- to our deployment at Akwesasne. 18 Q: And were you at -- were you deployed 19 to Grassy Narrows in 1991, after Sergeant Tom Cooper was 20 killed? 21 A: Yes, I was. 22 Q: And do you know if a T-shirt was 23 created after that incident? 24 A: I don't know. 25 Q: And did you purchase a mug? Did you
3421 see a -- a mug with the OPP crest and an arrow through 2 it? 3 A: No, I didn't. 4 Q: Did you see any of those mugs? 5 A: I don't remember seeing one. 6 Q: And did you -- I take it after 7 September the 8th you were in Sarnia, but did you see a 8 beer can with a feather when you were in the Ipperwash 9 area in September 1995? 10 A: A beer can? No. 11 Q: No? You have to speak up. 12 A: No. No. 13 Q: Pull the mike a little bit closer to 14 you. And what about -- did -- did you hear about a beer 15 can with a feather in it? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And what about a bull's eye on the 18 side of an OPP cruiser with an arrow, did you see that or 19 hear about that? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you see any cartoons at the 22 Pinery Park when you -- when you were at the Pinery Park, 23 that were disparaging towards aboriginal people? 24 A: I don't remember. 25 Q: And did you particip -- were you
3431 aware that there was an investigation into T-shirts and 2 mugs? 3 A: I -- I remember hearing of an 4 investigation. 5 Q: And did you participate in that 6 investigation? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And did you work with Constables 9 Whitehead and Dyke during the period September 4th to 10 September 6th? You were there -- 11 A: That's the period leading up -- 12 Q: -- on September 5th and 6th? 13 A: No. I've worked with them in the 14 past in surveillance details, but not leading up to this. 15 Q: And did you see any other forms of 16 memorabilia with respect to Ipperwash? Were there any 17 other t-shirts? You've told us about -- 18 A: Oh. 19 Q: -- this T-shirt, you saw the T-shirt 20 -- or you heard about the T-shirt with the arrow in the 21 last few days. 22 You didn't see the mugs, but did you see 23 any other memorabilia? 24 A: No, I didn't. 25 Q: And were you aware of a pin being
3441 created with a TRU team -- a TRU symbol and Kenneth 2 Deane's badge number on it? 3 A: Yes, I've seen those. 4 Q: And... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Is that -- is that the pin? 9 A: It looks like it. 10 Q: And do you now when that pin was 11 created? 12 A: No, I don't. 13 Q: And was it created by the Ontario 14 Provincial Police Association? 15 A: I don't know. 16 Q: And do you know what the pin was for? 17 A: I'm -- I'm guessing. It's in support 18 of Ken Deane. That's the TRU team symbol and that's his 19 badge on it. 20 Q: And -- but do you know anything about 21 -- where -- where did you see the pin? 22 A: I -- I've seen several people wearing 23 the pin. 24 Q: And -- but which people? Police 25 officers?
3451 A: Police officers, non-Police officers; 2 a lot of different people. 3 Q: And do you know anything about how it 4 was created, how it was sold, what it was used for? 5 A: I don't remember. 6 Q: And perhaps we could mark -- I'll 7 have to get a photocopy of that, Commissioner, as the 8 next Exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1606, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1606: Pin with Kenneth Deane's OPP 12 identification number and TRU 13 symbol on the pin. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And there's no -- that's -- there's 17 no document number for that. 18 And now, what effect, if any, did the 19 events of the evening of September 6th have on you? 20 A: I think -- actually, I'm going to ask 21 you to rephrase it, because I'm not sure where you're 22 going with the question. 23 Q: Did you -- well, the question is a 24 simple question. What effect, if anything, did the 25 events of September 6th have on you?
3461 A: I wasn't traumatized by it, if that's 2 what you mean. But it certainly opened my eyes to how 3 dangerous a situation can be, how much stuff went on all 4 at the same time. 5 It was a -- could be traumatic for a lot 6 of other people, definitely. I think I've been through 7 enough other incidents to know that I had to stay 8 focussed, but I could see how new people to this business 9 would be just blown away by how dangerous it was and how 10 much stuff was going on all at the same time. 11 Q: And thank you, Sergeant Irvine. 12 Those are my questions. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Did you have anything else you wished 17 to add? 18 A: To the statements that we've --sorry, 19 to what we've just discussed here? 20 Q: Or anything. Do you have anything 21 that you wish to tell the Commissioner? 22 A: As far as the Inquiry goes, if you 23 don't mind, I would like to -- to say a few things. Is 24 this the appropriate time to do this? 25 Q: Yes.
3471 A: Okay. 2 I've written a few points out, sir, if you 3 don't mind. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: When you're asking, originally, how 8 it had affected me, I know that we had -- we -- my 9 cohorts and myself had thought about how to better or 10 more thoroughly plan and prepare for such events in the 11 future. 12 That's why I wasn't sure how -- how your 13 question was going. 14 Anyway, I have a belief that a lot of this 15 whole Ipperwash thing might have been better dealt with, 16 would have been better dealt with by the Federal 17 Government having dealt with all of the issues before our 18 involvement, and unfortunately land claims are not a -- a 19 police matter. 20 And unfortunately, it came to being a 21 police matter, so I think a lot of people suffered from 22 this particular event. And the only solution, really, is 23 a political one. 24 I also feel that, in order for the 25 Commission to -- to give recommendations to respond to
3481 the concern of those involved and to fully understand the 2 circumstances that culminated in these events that we're 3 discussing today, I think it's very important that you 4 hear from people who were living in the area as well as 5 the police officers and the -- the First Nations people, 6 and the military police; people who'd been on the base in 7 the years leading up -- probably the previous two (2) 8 years, I would say, to this particular event. 9 I have a -- a problem with a lot of the 10 media reports on this particular Commission and that's 11 just a -- maybe a dislike of the media. But I think a 12 lot of this information has come out before, but not been 13 reported very well, which can taint people's opinions on 14 what actually happened. 15 And I'd like to think that when this -- 16 the Commission is over, that when this stuff is laid out 17 for all to see, the media can't hide behind, Oh, we 18 thought this meant such and such. It's quite apparent 19 for all to see. 20 After this Ipperwash event, one of the 21 effects has been the loss of trust, I think, from the 22 First Nations communities. 23 Basically again, regarding these political 24 type of events, the politicians should be dealing with 25 them. But there's certainly a reluctance to allow TRU
3491 teams to go onto some First Nations territories. 2 I now work in a communications centre, so 3 I am involved oftentimes in events from the get-go and a 4 lot of times the TRU teams are not welcomed on a 5 reservation. 6 But unfortunately, sending ERT teams to do 7 the job without the equipment and without the training, 8 is a dangerous thing. So I'm -- I'm just throwing open a 9 -- a possible option as a thought anyway. 10 If there was a possibility of a -- or a 11 thought has been given to a First Nations tactical team 12 that are better accepted on their communities. 13 They're horrible events, because in all 14 the events that I've ever gone to it's because somebody 15 has a weapon or a gun or whatever the case is. So 16 straightaway the situation is -- is fraught with peril, 17 but I think First Nations officers might be better 18 accepted by their own kind to deal with one (1) of these 19 situations. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And that's all I have to say. 22 Thanks. 23 Q: Thank you very much, Sergeant Irvine. 24 Before we close, Commissioner, perhaps we 25 could canvass the parties?
3501 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Does 2 anybody wish to cross-examine this officer? Please 3 indicate. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Alexander...? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 6 Alexander...? 7 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Fifteen (15) to 8 thirty (30) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 10 to thirty (30)? 11 Ms. Esmonde...? 12 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Thirty (30) to 13 forty-five (45) minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thirty (30) 15 to forty-five (45). 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Esmonde, thirty 17 (30) to forty-five (45). 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 19 Scullion...? 20 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thirty (30) minutes 21 or so. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thirty (30) 23 minutes. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Scullion, thirty 25 (30) minutes.
3511 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 2 Johnson...? 3 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Thirty (30) 4 minutes. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Johnson, thirty 6 (30) minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And, Mr. 8 Mathai...? 9 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Forty-five (45) 10 minutes to an hour. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 12 can't hear. 13 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Forty-five (45) 14 minutes to an hour. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Mathai, forty-five 16 (45) minutes to an hour. 17 And that adds up to between two and a half 18 (2-1/2) and three (3) hours, so we'll call -- finish the 19 cross-examination in the morning, sir, and then call Mr. 20 Slomer. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 22 adjourn now for the day and we'll reconvene tomorrow 23 morning at 9:00. 24 25 (WITNESS RETIRES)
3521 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 3 adjourned until tomorrow, Friday, May the 26th at 9:00 4 a.m. 5 6 --- Upon adjourning at 5:19 p.m. 7 8 9 Certified Correct 10 11 12 13 14 15 ___________________________ 16 Carol Geehan 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25