1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 24th, 2006 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 Amanda Rogers ) (np) Student-at-law 16 17 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 18 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 19 Kevin Scullion ) 20 21 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 22 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 23 Colleen Johnson ) 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 5 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 6 7 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 8 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 9 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 10 11 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 12 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 13 Jennifer McAleer ) 14 15 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 16 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 17 18 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 19 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 3 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 4 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 5 Trevor Hinnegan ) 6 7 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 8 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 9 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 10 11 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 12 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 13 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 14 Ian McGilp ) (np) 15 Annie Leeks ) (np) 16 Jennifer Gleitman ) 17 Robyn Trask ) (np) 18 Caroline Swerdlyk ) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 Chris Cossitt, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 11 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 134 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 206 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Colleen Johnson 234 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Falconer 251 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 363 12 13 MARK IVAN BEAUCHESNE, Affirmed 14 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 369 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 399 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1573 Document Number 1004660. Transcript of 4 evidence of Chris Cossitt, R. v. Cecil 5 Bernard George (pages 223-254 of 6 transcript) July 15, 1996. 24 7 P-1574 Document Number 1000286. Typed and 8 handwritten statement of Chris Cossitt, 9 September 08, 1995. 36 10 P-1575 Document Number 1000288. Transcript of 11 statement of Chris Cossitt (interview by 12 Ed. Wilson) December 07, 1995. 63 13 P-1576 Document Number 1005296. Transcript of 14 evidence of Chris Cossitt , R. v. Kenneth 15 Deane, (pages 167-201 of transcript) 16 April 09, 1997. 66 17 P-1577 Topographical map of Ipperwash Provincial 18 Park, marked and signed by Chris Cossitt, 19 September 27, 1995. 72 20 P-1578 Handwritten notebook entries of Chris 21 Cossitt, October 05-06, 1995. 120 22 P-1579 Handwritten notebook entries of Chris 23 Cossitt, February 26 and April 08, 1997. 121 24 25


1 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1580 Document Number 1005301. Judge H. 4 Fraser's Reasons for Judgment, April 28, 5 1997 at Sarnia, Ontario. 123 6 P-1581 Document Number 2005302. Statement of 7 Ronald E. Piers. 186 8 P-1582 Document Number 2005347. Court of 9 Appeal for Ontario, Her Majesty the 10 Queen v. Kenneth Deane, Affidavit of 11 David Smith, August 01, 1998. 190 12 P-1583 Document Number 2005345. Court of 13 Appeal of Ontario, Her Majesty the 14 Queen v. Kenneth Deane, Affidavit of 15 Myra Rusk, August 03, 1998. 192 16 P-1584 Document number 2005547. Resume of 17 Mark Ivon Beauchesne. 371 18 P-1585 Handwritten notebook entries of Mark 19 Beauchesne, August 23-24, 1993. 378 20 P-1586 Document Number 2005582. Handwritten 21 notes and notebook entries of Mark 22 Beauchesne. February 26-27, 1995. 381 23 P-1587 Document Number 2005527. Handwritten 24 notebook entries of Mark Beauchesne, 25 September 05-22, 1995. 388


1 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1588 Document Number 2005528. Handwritten 4 notes of Mark Beauchesne, September 5 05-07, 1995. 389 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning. 9 10 CHRIS COSSITT, Resumes 11 12 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 14 Vella...? 15 16 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: Good morning, Constable. 18 A: Good morning. 19 Q: At the end of the day yesterday we 20 left off at the conclusion of your day shift on September 21 the 6th, 1995, approximately page 51 of your notes, Tab 22 16, Exhibit Number 1570. 23 And my question is: Did you receive any 24 further assignments at the conclusion of your day shift? 25 A: We actually went back to Forest


1 Detachment. 2 Q: And what did you do at the Forest 3 Detachment? 4 A: We had a debrief of the day's events. 5 Q: All right. Now, just going to your - 6 - your notes just so that I understand, the 18:50 entry 7 at page 51 the first line seems to say: 8 "10-7 TOC?" 9 A: Yeah. Tactical Operations Centre -- 10 Q: Yeah. So -- 11 A: -- which is the MNR parking lot -- 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: -- on East Parkway Drive. 14 Q: What -- what was the reference to 15 that which precedes the briefing at Forest? 16 A: We went and I don't recall what we 17 did but we attended there and -- and we were there for a 18 short period and then went back to Forest. 19 Q: Okay. Fair enough. In any event 20 then you were at the Forest Detachment and you had a 21 debriefing. 22 Do you recall who provided the debriefing? 23 A: I believe it was Sergeant Korosec. 24 Q: All right. Did you -- were you given 25 any indication at that time that you were going to be


1 deployed as part of the CMU unit? 2 A: Not initially. 3 Q: All right. Perhaps you can tell us, 4 then? 5 A: We had received some instruction on 6 our ASP baton and during that event we received 7 information that we may be deployed as a Crowd Management 8 Unit. 9 Q: All right. Now, this is still at the 10 Forest Detachment? 11 A: Yes, ma'am. 12 Q: And had you ever used an ASP baton 13 before? 14 A: Yes, ma'am. 15 Q: You had? 16 A: Yes, ma'am. 17 Q: All right. And can you tell us, was 18 there any significant difference in the use of the ASP 19 baton as compared with the hickory wood baton? 20 A: In my opinion, it was just the 21 expanding and collapsing, that was the only difference in 22 the -- 23 Q: All right. 24 A: -- the two. 25 Q: Now, do you recall, while you were at


1 the Forest Detachment and receiving -- in and around the 2 time you received training on the ASP baton, was Staff 3 Sergeant Lacroix there yet? 4 A: I don't recall when he came. He 5 eventually ended up there. I'm not sure when he arrived. 6 Q: All right. Do you recall going 7 through any routines with respect to Crowd Management 8 Unit tactics at that time? 9 A: Yes. We went through some 10 formations. 11 Q: Okay. And do you recall who led 12 that? 13 A: It might have been the Staff Sergeant 14 or Sergeant Hebblethwaite. I don't recall. 15 Q: Fair enough. Now, you indicated -- 16 how long did you remain at the Forest Detachment, 17 approximately? 18 A: I -- I really don't recall how long 19 we would have been there. 20 Q: At some point in time, over the 21 course of being at the Forest Detachment, you indicated 22 that you were given an indication that you were going to 23 be deployed? 24 A: Yes, ma'am. 25 Q: And can you tell us the circumstances


1 of that inform -- of that briefing? 2 A: The way I understand it or recall it, 3 is that it was -- there was some events that were 4 happening down at the Park area, that there had been some 5 Native people or occupiers came out of the Park area and 6 had damaged some vehicles. 7 Q: Were you provided with any further 8 particulars about that event that you can recall? 9 A: In my notes, I have indicated that it 10 was a private citizen going by had their vehicle damaged. 11 I don't know -- don't recall where I got that from. 12 Q: All right. Were you advised at the 13 Forest Detachment what the mission of the Crowd 14 Management Unit was going to be? 15 A: I don't recall being advised that. I 16 have my opinion what -- what our purpose would be. 17 Q: What was your opinion? 18 A: My opinion was that we were to go 19 there and our presence would put the occupiers back into 20 the Park and hopefully stop it -- it with our presence. 21 Q: All right. Do you recall whether or 22 not you suited up at the Forest Detachment? 23 A: I don't believe we were fully suited 24 up, but partially. 25 Q: And what -- was it the soft TAC or


1 hard TAC? 2 A: I believe, myself, I only partially 3 kitted up. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: I partially kitted up, putting some 8 of my equipment on and leaving other parts of my CMU 9 equipment for later. 10 Q: All right. But was it -- I 11 understand there's two (2) types of dressings; hard TAC 12 and soft TAC. Were you kitting up in your hard TAC? 13 A: I don't believe at that point. 14 Q: All right, fair enough. Do you 15 recall whether you learned over the course of this 16 evening, prior to your deployment, any of the following 17 information: Whether or not gunshots had been heard in 18 or around the army camp or Park the night before? 19 A: I don't recall that? 20 Q: Whether there was any indication that 21 there may be assault firearms such as AK-47s and mini- 22 Rugers, suspected as being in the possession of the 23 occupiers? 24 A: I don't specifically recall that. I 25 remember hearing rumours, but to substantiate them, I


1 can't. 2 Q: All right. Well, did you have -- 3 hear rumours of their being the possibility of firearms 4 in the possession of the occupiers prior to your 5 deployment? 6 A: Yes, ma'am, I believe so. 7 Q: Okay. Had you heard any information 8 with respect to the susp -- suspicion that women and 9 children were leaving the Army Camp? 10 A: I don't recall that, ma'am. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Did you form any impression with 15 respect to the level of risk for the potential of 16 violence in the sandy parking lot at that time? 17 A: I don't recall. 18 Q: All right. And if you go to page 51 19 of your notes, I note that the last entry that has a time 20 associated with it is 18:50; is that right -- 21 A: That's correct, ma'am. 22 Q: -- for the balance of the evening. 23 And can you tell me why that that's the last indication 24 of any times with respect to the events that then follow 25 as recorded in your notes?


1 A: That's the last time that I could 2 positively tell you what time an event happened. 3 Q: All right. And is it fair to say 4 that your notes from the bottom of page 51 over to page 5 53 essentially describe the -- your time at the Forest 6 Detachment prior to going to the TOC? 7 A: Yes, ma'am. 8 Q: All right. I wonder first of all, 9 was the TRU team present at the Forest Detachment; do you 10 recall whether or not they were there? 11 A: I don't recall if they were at Forest 12 Detachment. 13 Q: Okay. And therefore you -- you don't 14 recall whether there was a joint briefing with the TRU? 15 A: I don't recall that. 16 Q: All right. Would you kindly read 17 into the record for us, the entry from 18:50 at the 18 bottom of page 51 over to page 53 to the second last 19 entry of your notes? 20 A: Do you want me to read my notes? 21 Q: Please. 22 A: From 18:50 it says: 23 "10-7 at T-O-C [which is TOC]. 24 Released 10-6 Forest for debriefing. 25 Sergeant Korosec -- "


1 Q: Sorry, debriefing by Sergeant 2 Korosec? 3 A: "by Sergeant Korosec. Issued ASP 4 baton, given instructions on extending 5 it and collapsing it. 6 Information came in. There was a large 7 mass of Natives in the parking lot by 8 the beach just outside the Park. And 9 we were heading to the TOC -- the TOC. 10 We seen two (2) Native, 11 sixteen/seventeen (16/17) year old boys 12 by a dumpster and the red car's 13 blocking the gate standing by the 14 parking lot. 15 One had a black baseball bat. They 16 were walking around. We could hear on 17 the radio that the teams were pulling 18 the road back -- the roadblocks back. 19 And there was a lot of talking about a 20 Native massing in the area. We were 21 ordered to prepare for our crowd 22 control gear and standby Forest 23 Detachment in case we were required for 24 deployment. 25 I got dressed and stood by in the rear


1 -- or in the rear [our] parking lot. 2 Sergeant Hebblethwaite and Staff 3 Sergeant Wade Lacroix, CMU leaders, 4 stand by it where parking lot. 5 Staff Sergeant briefed us. A private 6 citizen was driving through parking lot 7 and the Natives had taken their bats to 8 the vehicle damaging it. 9 And the checkpoints were reporting 10 increased movement and that they were 11 on the beach access not in the Park, 12 with fires, etc." 13 Q: Okay, thank you. And just to be 14 clear, this reflects the information that you received 15 while you were at the Forest Detachment, what you've just 16 read to us? 17 A: Yes, ma'am. 18 Q: And that refreshes your memory does 19 it with respect to the extent of the information you had? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: All right. And were you ultimately 22 dispatched to the TOC? 23 A: Yes, ma'am. 24 Q: Okay. Were any additional 25 instructions given to you as you as you left the Forest


1 Detachment? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: Do you recall who your partner was? 4 A: Constable Scwhass. 5 Q: And how do you spell that? 6 A: S-C-H-W-A-S-S. 7 Q: All right. What element of the Crowd 8 Management Unit were you assigned to? 9 A: I was assigned to the right support 10 unit or right cover unit. 11 Q: Right cover squad? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And where you located 14 within the right cover squad? 15 A: Inside pairing and I would be this 16 number 2. 17 Q: Okay. Who was in charge of the right 18 cover squad that night? 19 A: Sergeant Huntley and Constable 20 Osborne. 21 Q: And who were you commanding officers 22 in charge of the -- the Crowd Management Unit that night? 23 A: Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix and 24 Sergeant Hebblethwaite. 25 Q: Now, did you receive any further


1 information of significance as you transported to the TOC 2 over the radio? 3 A: I don't recall anything else. 4 Q: And I note -- with respect to your 5 notes perhaps you can -- so that we can understand the 6 directions, which direction did you describe as being 7 north, relative to the sandy parking lot? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: I have Lakeshore Road which I believe 12 would be East Park Drive -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- as being -- that would be I guess 15 the east and west. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: North and south -- Lakeside would be 18 north and south would be towards 21 Highway. 19 Q: Okay. And so west is towards the 20 TOC? 21 A: Towards the TOC and east would be 22 towards the Park. 23 Q: And east would be towards the Park? 24 A: Yes, ma'am. 25 Q: Thank you very much. Okay. and


1 thank you for the clarification that Lakeshore -- what 2 you've described here as Lakeshore Road is you believe 3 East Parkway Drive? 4 A: Yes, ma'am. 5 Q: Thank you. What was your 6 understanding of the Crowd Management Union -- Unit's 7 mission as you -- when you were at the TOC? 8 A: Our mission would be to put the 9 occupiers back into the Park by our -- my presence or our 10 presence. 11 Q: All right. By your presence only? 12 A: I -- I felt that that's probably 13 would suffice to do so. 14 Q: All right. Do you recall describing 15 your mission as: 16 "Quelling an uprising that had spilled 17 out of the Park onto the roadway and 18 put them back into the Park and then 19 return to the Operations Centre." 20 A: Yeah, I believe I described it on one 21 (1) of my prior evidence. 22 Q: And just for the record that was at 23 the trial of R. vs. Cecil Bernard George which is found 24 at Tab 26 of your brief, page 225 of the transcript. And 25 perhaps you can just take a moment to look at that.


1 A: I'm sorry, which tab was that? 2 Q: Tab 26 please. 3 A: Yes, ma'am. 4 Q: This is an excerpt from that trial. 5 It reflects your examination-in-chief and cross- 6 examination, pages 223 to 254 inclusive. It's Inquiry 7 Document 1004660 and page 225 in particular, line 20. 8 The question: 9 "And your mission as you understood was 10 what? 11 A: To quell an uprising that had 12 spilled out of the Park onto the 13 roadway and put them back into the Park 14 and then return to the Operational 15 Centre." 16 Now, do you recall giving that answer? 17 A: Yes, ma'am. 18 Q: And was that true and accurate when 19 you gave it? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: I'd like to make this transcript the 22 next exhibit please? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1573, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1573: Document Number 1004660.


1 Transcript of evidence of 2 Chris Cossitt, R. v. Cecil 3 Bernard George (pages 223-254 4 of transcript) July 15, 1996. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: And what did you mean by your use of 8 the term 'uprising'? 9 A: The -- I didn't mean it in any 10 derogatory manner or to be -- to offend anyone, it was 11 just a term I used and it may not have been appropriate 12 and I apologize for that, but the term was to basically 13 have the Natives by our presence move back into the Park 14 and everything would be fine at that point. 15 Q: What was you understanding of your 16 instructions as to whether and under what circumstances, 17 you could go into the Park that night? 18 A: I don't believe -- we were told not 19 to go into the Park, ma'am. 20 Q: All right. Were you given any 21 rationale with respect to that direction? 22 A: I don't recall anything, no. 23 Q: Did you see the -- the TRU team 24 members at the TOC? 25 A: Yes, ma'am, and vehicles.


1 Q: And what was your understanding of 2 the purpose of the TRU team presence at that time? 3 A: I believe they were there to support 4 us. 5 Q: All right. Now, at any time prior to 6 leaving the TOC and commencing the advancement towards 7 the sandy parking lot, did you have any information or 8 understanding that the Crowd Management Unit was being 9 deployed, at least in part, as a diversionary tactic to 10 allow the TRU observation or Sierra teams to get into 11 position, in or around the sandy parking lot area? 12 A: No, ma'am. 13 Q: We've heard evidence from Inspector 14 Skinner that it was his understanding that the CMU was, 15 at least in part, being deployed to allow his TRU Sierra 16 teams to get into position after an initial failed 17 attempt. 18 Does that refresh your memory at all? 19 A: No, ma'am. 20 Q: All right. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: To your knowledge, were there any 25 restrictions or qualifications placed on your mission to


1 remove the sandy -- the occupiers from the sandy parking 2 lot? 3 A: I don't recall anything, ma'am. 4 Q: Were there any -- any circumstances 5 under which you were not to proceed to remove the 6 occupiers from the sandy parking lot? 7 A: I don't recall anything. 8 Q: We have heard evidence that earlier 9 in the evening, Inspector Carson had indicated that if 10 the occupiers were not effectively posing a real threat, 11 in terms of, for example, having a campfire, then the CMU 12 would leave them alone for the evening. 13 Do you recall any -- receiving any 14 information or directions reflecting that view? 15 A: I'm sorry, I don't recall anything. 16 Q: All right. Did the fact that this 17 mission was taking place at night cause any additional 18 risks or challenges to you in terms of quali -- quality 19 of visibility? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: And what was the level of visibility 22 that night, as you are at the TOC? 23 A: It seemed very dark and ominous. It 24 was -- it seemed -- appeared very overcast and almost 25 like it had a cap over top of us.


1 Q: Okay. Did you have any night vision 2 equipment -- 3 A: No, ma'am. 4 Q: Do you recall whether or not there 5 were any joint briefing with the TRU at the TOC? 6 A: No, ma'am. 7 Q: There -- there weren't, or you don't 8 recall? 9 A: I don't recall anything. 10 Q: All right. And did you learn 11 anything else of significance at the TOC, prior to 12 advancing towards the sandy parking lot? 13 A: No, ma'am. 14 Q: All right. Perhaps you can return to 15 Tab 16, to your notes at page 53, Exhibit P-1570. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And at the bottom therein, and 20 continuing onto page 54. 21 Now, I believe that that reflects your -- 22 the events of proceeding to the TOC; is that right? 23 A: Yes, we were at the TOC and we were 24 awaiting a debriefing. 25 Q: All right. Now, as you are preparing


1 to deploy, what type of crowd situation did you think you 2 were likely to encounter at the sandy parking lot? 3 A: I don't recall what my thoughts were 4 back then, ma'am, as to what we were expecting. 5 Q: All right. Were you provided with 6 any direction in that respect? 7 A: I don't recall. 8 Q: Do you recall whether you had any 9 expectations with respect to the potential use of 10 firearms? 11 A: I believe it was a concern because of 12 rumours I had heard, that we spoke about earlier. 13 Q: Did you have any expectation of there 14 being a confrontation that night? 15 A: It's always a possibility when you go 16 into situations like that with CMU. 17 Q: All right. Did you ultimately 18 receive orders to advance onto the East Parkway Drive? 19 A: Yes, ma'am. We proceeded down East 20 Parkway Drive in the box formation. 21 Q: And what -- what was the purpose of 22 the box formation in these circumstances as compared to 23 other formations? 24 A: Because of the roadways -- a narrow 25 roadway, we could walk down it fairly freely.


1 Q: All right. And just very briefly, 2 the box formation is -- consists of what? 3 A: Is a lineup of officers, like support 4 units and contact units with their support people with 5 them. And we were all lined up for the purpose of 6 walking down in an orderly fashion. 7 Q: Do you recall what row you were in? 8 A: East Parkway. 9 Q: What row, sorry? 10 A: I'm sorry, what row? 11 Q: What row of officers were you in? 12 A: I'm in the right support and I 13 believe that would be the -- I believe it's the second 14 grouping back. 15 Q: Okay. And what is your mindset as 16 you start walking towards the sandy parking lot? 17 A: I can recall being very nervous as 18 we're going down into something that's unexpected and not 19 sure what's going to be at the end. 20 Q: And is it fair to say that your notes 21 with respect to the deployment or the -- the commencement 22 of the advancement start at about halfway down page 54? 23 A: Yes, ma'am, that's correct. 24 Q: All right. And your notes of the 25 events which follow during the course of the advancement


1 go from page 54 to 62; is that fair? 2 A: Yes, ma'am, that would fair. 3 Q: Thank you. What communication 4 capacity did you have? 5 A: We had our Crowd Control helmets on 6 and we had speakers inside the helmets. 7 Q: Could you transmit information as 8 well as receive? 9 A: I don't believe I could. 10 Q: All right. Was your communication 11 set working that night? 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: Were you able to hear the 14 transmissions -- any transmissions from TRU over your 15 communication system? 16 A: I don't recall any transmissions from 17 them. 18 Q: All right. What is the first event 19 you recall of note as you left the TOC and proceeded 20 along East Parkway Drive? 21 A: As we proceeded east along Parkway 22 Drive we were halted and the CMU split and we were 23 ordered to take a knee on the shoulder of the road, on 24 the sandy portion of the road. 25 Q: Now prior to that, do you recall


1 seeing spotlights and individuals with those spotlights? 2 A: Not at that point, ma'am. 3 Q: Perhaps if you just look at your 4 notes page 54. I think that it starts: 5 "We proceeded up Lakeshore in a close 6 formation down to the road width [is 7 it?]" 8 Due to the road width? 9 A: Yes, road width. 10 Q: And can you just read the next couple 11 of lines there? 12 A: "As we approached I could see 13 spotlights coming from the Park." 14 Q: Yes, continue. 15 A: "In front I could see three (3) of 16 four (4) people running back and forth, 17 the Park." 18 Q: Towards the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And does that refresh 21 your memory at all with respect to the chronology or 22 sequence of events? 23 A: The sequence might be out a little 24 bit with that. There's a slight curve in the road and it 25 wasn't until we started coming around this slight curve


1 in the road that we seen spotlights. 2 Q: Okay. And just looking at the map 3 behind you and I hope that you have a laser pen in front 4 of you; do you? Yes that -- that would be it. 5 And what we're looking at is a diagram of 6 an aerial photograph of East Parkway Drive. It includes 7 the TOC site on the left and the Park on the very right. 8 I can assist actually. 9 A: That's the Park? 10 Q: Yeah. That's the sandy parking lot. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: I'm sorry. Oh, can you please use 15 the -- the hand mic? 16 A: I'm sorry. 17 Q: Thank you. Now this is the -- in 18 this area, the sandy parking lot, is -- 19 A: Yes, ma'am. 20 Q: -- that fair? And the Park to the 21 right there? 22 A: Yes, ma'am. 23 Q: And then you've got East Parkway 24 Drive,, this is just to orient you, and the MNR parking 25 lot?


1 A: Yes, ma'am. 2 Q: Now, can you just show us 3 approximately, when you said you approached the bend in 4 the road are you able to tell from that map what bend 5 you're referring to? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: I believe it would be the bend up 10 this way. 11 Q: And so you're -- is that 12 approximately 200 metres from the sandy parking lot 13 according to this -- 14 A: Approximately, ma'am. It's difficult 15 to recall but I believe that would be the bend. 16 Q: Okay. I just wanted to -- to have a 17 sense of that. 18 All right. In any event that's when you 19 first see the spotlights and the individuals. You said 20 prior to that you received an order to split? 21 A: Yes, ma'am. 22 Q: And what was the -- and what was the 23 purpose of the split? 24 A: There would have been information 25 received that there were some people ahead of us that was


1 carrying something. 2 Q: All right. And if you go to Tab 22. 3 So the statement that you provided on September 8th, 4 1995, to a member of the SIU -- it's Inquiry Document 5 1000286. 6 If you go to page 401 and first of all was 7 this statement a transcript of -- of a statement that you 8 provided to the SIU on September the 8th, 1995? 9 A: This is a statement that I provided. 10 Is this gentleman SIU or...? 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: I don't recall that. 13 Q: Okay. Do you recall who this -- 14 perhaps you can pronounce the name for me, who this 15 gentleman is? 16 A: I -- the pronunciation would be 17 Pierzchalski. 18 Q: All right. And it took place at the 19 Forest OPP? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: And do you recall what the purpose of 22 this interview was? 23 A: It was to provide details of the 24 events that happened that day. 25 Q: The night before?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: All right. And did you have an 7 opportunity to review this doc -- statement prior to 8 today? 9 A: Yes, ma'am. 10 Q: And does it accurately reflect the 11 substance of your -- of the information you provided at 12 this -- at this interview? 13 A: Yes, ma'am. 14 Q: I'd like to make this the next 15 exhibit please? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1574, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1574: Document Number 1000286. 19 Typed and handwritten 20 statement of Chris Cossitt, 21 September 08, 1995. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: It's Tab -- Tab 22. All right. And 25 on page 401 you have indicated at the bottom:


1 "We continued the advance. TRU Unit 2 had us halt as we saw a Native who had 3 what appeared to be a gun. It was not 4 a gun when they reconfirmed the item to 5 be some sort of stick." 6 Is that the event that you're reflect -- 7 referring to? 8 A: Yes, ma'am. 9 Q: Did you -- did you actually see 10 somebody with -- with what appeared to be a gun? 11 A: I don't recall seeing it, no. 12 Q: All right. And I do notice in the 13 statement you seem again in the sequence to indicate that 14 you saw spotlights and four (4) people running toward the 15 Park area prior to this event. 16 Does that refresh your memory at all? 17 A: That's closer to the -- the bend in 18 the road further up. 19 Q: I appreciate -- all right. All 20 right. Fair enough. So it's -- it's wrong in -- in 21 terms of the sequence that you've got in here -- 22 A: The sequence, yes, ma'am. 23 Q: -- this statement? Thank you. All 24 right. Perhaps we'll turn then to Tab 16 page 54, bottom 25 of your notes Exhibit P-1570. Perhaps you can advise


1 what occurred then after you split and then received 2 information that the object was a stick and not a 3 firearm. 4 A: We reformed and we continued 5 eastbound on East Parkway Drive. 6 Q: And at this time are you -- do you 7 continue to be in the box formation or do you move to a 8 different one? 9 A: As we continue down the road we did 10 continue in the box formation. 11 Q: All right. And at some point do you 12 change formations as you're advancing towards the Park? 13 A: As we come around the slight bend in 14 the road and the road's characteristics widen -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: -- to give us more road, yes, we did 17 go to a cordon formation at that point. 18 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: At that point is when we observed 23 several occupiers running around in the sandy parking 24 lot. There was floodlights being shone on us and we just 25 continued walking forward.


1 Q: And where did you advance to? 2 A: We advanced, prior to the -- the 3 fence line in the Park. 4 Q: All right. And what row were you in 5 when the Crowd Management Unit stopped at the fence at 6 the Park? 7 A: I was in the right support unit. 8 Q: Which row of officers -- were -- were 9 there any officers in front of you? 10 A: The -- yes, there was a contact squad 11 in front -- in front of me and then I was directly behind 12 them on the right side of the contact squad. 13 Q: And approximately how many -- how far 14 away from the fence line were you when the CMU stopped? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I'd be far enough away, I would never 19 -- I couldn't be able to touch the fence. I don't recall 20 the distance. 21 Q: All right. Were there any -- I'm 22 sorry? Sorry. 23 A: Sorry. 24 Q: Were there any -- any First Nations 25 people in the parking lot at this point?


1 A: They had returned back into the Park 2 area. 3 Q: And do you recall, were there any 4 First Nations persons in the sandy parking lot as the CMU 5 first entered it? 6 A: Yes, ma'am. 7 Q: All right. And do you recall how 8 many? 9 A: There was several. I don't recall a 10 number, ma'am. 11 Q: Do you recall what, if anything, they 12 were doing? 13 A: They were running about and holding 14 sticks. 15 Q: Okay. Now, as you're stopped at the 16 fence line, were you able to hear what was going on 17 around you? 18 A: Some of it, yes, ma'am. 19 Q: And what could you hear? 20 A: There was some occupiers with a large 21 fire and there was several occupiers standing on the east 22 side of the fire, and they was -- 23 Q: What -- 24 A: I'm sorry? 25 Q: Where's the fire?


1 A: It's -- there's a gateway there, and 2 it was just -- just off to the side of the gateway. 3 Q: All right, the turnstile or...? 4 A: It was an entrance gate. I would 5 think it'd be a maintenance entranceway. 6 Q: Okay, thank you. All right, carry 7 on. What else did you see? 8 A: There was several occupiers standing 9 there around the fire and there was -- I could hear some 10 yelling. And we were called, Fucking pigs; My 11 grandfather died here and I'm prepared to die here, and 12 more abuse like that. 13 Q: Did you make any observations with 14 respect to the -- the age range of the occupiers and the 15 gender of the occupiers that you could see? 16 A: I could see some females. They were 17 standing facing me on the east side of the fire and I was 18 on the west side of the fence. 19 I could see some -- some women and some 20 men. 21 Q: Did you see any young people? 22 A: What do you refer as young people, 23 ma'am? 24 Q: Under eighteen (18). 25 A: I'm sorry?


1 Q: Under eighteen (18). 2 A: I would say seventeen (17), eighteen 3 (18) would be the youngest. 4 Q: All right. Did you see any objects, 5 aside from the fire? 6 A: There was lots of sticks. I seen a 7 metal pole. 8 Q: All right. Did you see any vehicles? 9 A: I don't recall at that point, ma'am. 10 Q: All right. Did you hear any police 11 officers say anything to the occupiers while you are 12 standing stationary near the fence line? 13 A: I didn't hear anything. I seen Staff 14 Sergeant Lacroix come forward towards the contact squad. 15 I could see his mouth moving; I couldn't hear what was 16 said. 17 Q: Did he have his visor on at this 18 time? 19 A: Yes, he had his helmet and visor, 20 yes. 21 Q: Was it down? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: But you were able to see his mouth 24 moving? 25 A: It was tipped back a little.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: I don't know who he was speaking to. 3 It could have been the contact squad, it could have been 4 the Natives, I don't know. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And you don't recall seeing any -- 9 any vehicles at this point in time? 10 A: No, ma'am, I don't. 11 Q: All right. How long do you think you 12 stood stationery at the fence? 13 A: It felt like forever, but I don't 14 recall. 15 Q: Do you recall what happened if 16 anything, as Sergeant -- Staff Sergeant Lacroix appeared 17 to be speaking? 18 A: I noticed a -- a large man beside the 19 fire, there was a large street sign pole that was beside 20 the fire and he picked up and moved it across kind of 21 half circle, and almost simultaneously we were ordered to 22 back up. 23 Q: All right. Did this pole cross the 24 fence line? 25 A: No, I never seen it cross the fence


1 line. 2 Q: Were you -- did you recognize the 3 individual with the pole? 4 A: I had seen the person before, but I - 5 - I don't recall his name. 6 Q: All right. And what are the lighting 7 conditions as you are standing at the fence line and 8 observ -- making these observations? 9 A: There was floodlights from the 10 Natives. There were floodlights, the fire. I don't 11 recall any street lights or anything like that. It was 12 dark in the sandy parking lot area. 13 Q: How did the spotlights affect your 14 ability to see? 15 A: A temporary adjustment would have to 16 be made if you -- if you were shone in the eyes with it. 17 Q: All right. Did you subsequently come 18 to identify the person who you believe was swinging that 19 pole? 20 A: I -- I believe it could be -- his 21 name -- I've never been introduced to him. I've heard 22 his name is Judas. I don't know where I -- I have that 23 from. I don't know anything more about his name. 24 Q: That -- did you identify that name in 25 -- in any of your statements or any of your court


1 testimony about this event? 2 A: No. I've never been asked about 3 that, no. 4 Q: And so what is the basis of you 5 understanding or belief? 6 A: Just with -- where I draw it from is 7 previously we had an involvement with a getto-blaster 8 where Constable Carmen Bressette (phonetic) was involved 9 in. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: And was speaking with him I learned 12 that Native that I seen that picked up that street sign 13 and -- pole and swing it across was the one Native that 14 came down in the negotiations and was involved with. And 15 I recall it was Carmen that mentioned, Oh, that's Judas, 16 he talking, explaining what was going on. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: And that's how I -- I recall his 19 name. That's the best I can do for you. I'm sorry. 20 Q: All right. Now you indicated that as 21 the pole was being swung by this individual, you -- you 22 received the order to back up? 23 A: Almost at the same time, yes. 24 Q: And where did you back up to? 25 A: As we started to back up my partner


1 took a stone or interlocking brick, it hit his helmet and 2 bounced off and hit me in the left foot. At that time 3 there was some debris being thrown at us. 4 And we continued backing up. As we backed 5 up there was a left cover punchout order as there was 6 Natives starting to come back out from a gateway or a 7 turnstile. And they punched out. 8 Q: Now at the time that you observed the 9 punchout, were you still in the sandy parking lot or were 10 you back on the pavement? 11 A: I myself was still on some sand. 12 Q: All right. Do you recall what 13 prompted the left cover punchout? 14 A: There was some Natives coming out of 15 the turnstile gateway. I believe that would prompt that. 16 Q: All right. Now do you mention in 17 your notes, anything about a left cover punchout? 18 A: No, I don't, ma'am. 19 Q: And why not? 20 A: I recall that, but I wasn't involved 21 with that punchout. That wasn't what my specific duty 22 was but I recall it happening. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: I wasn't involved in the punchout 25 itself.


1 Q: And what -- describe what you saw 2 then during the course of the left punch -- cover 3 punchout. 4 A: I seen them come forward and they 5 start coming back. And they -- I -- I don't recall if we 6 stopped or we slowed down for them to catch back up to 7 us. 8 Q: All right. And in the course of this 9 you indicated that certain objects were being thrown at 10 you. You described an interlocking brick did you? 11 A: Yes, ma'am. 12 Q: And what else if anything was being 13 thrown at you? 14 A: There was -- at that point as we were 15 just initially starting to back up there was pieces of 16 burning wood from the fire that was being thrown at us. 17 It was still burning as it came towards us. 18 Q: All right. And you described these 19 events I believe at page 56 of your notes? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: And at the top of page 56 you reflect 22 the -- the apparent conversation by Staff Sergeant 23 Lacroix and then the man wielding the post at Staff 24 Sergeant Lacroix; is that right? 25 A: Yeah. I don't know if it was at


1 him -- 2 Q: All right. 3 A: -- or he picked it up. I -- I'd make 4 an assumption, I -- 5 Q: Well, perhaps you could just read 6 that passage for us then? 7 A: "Staff Sergeant Lacroix walked up to 8 the fence with no shield [which means 9 the -- he had his helmet on but his 10 protective shield that we carry -- kind 11 of visor up] and attempted to speak to 12 them. A Native by the -- the fire 13 picked up a -- a street signpost, 14 metal, and started towards us and the 15 staff, using it like a spear. He and 16 the -- he had the Unit -- or he and the 17 Unit backed up about 35/40 metres." 18 Q: All right. So this is the backup 19 order? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. Yes? 22 A: "As we were backing up they started 23 with throwing rocks. Schwass was hit 24 on the -- with a rock, the helmet. It 25 landed on my -- my foot. Started to --


1 throwing burning wood from the fire at 2 us. Two (2) pieces landed 18/20 inches 3 from me. We backed up towards the 4 curve on the asphalt." 5 Q: All right. Now, just for 6 clarification you've described the events I think of -- 7 of the object being thrown at your partner as being an 8 interlocking brick and here you say it's a rock. 9 A: Yes, ma'am. To me an interlocking 10 brick is -- I just refer to it as a stone or a rock. It 11 looked like it was a shaped object rather than like a 12 stone would be, naturally forming thing. 13 Q: All right. And is it over the course 14 of these events that you've just read that the left 15 punchout occurs? 16 A: Yes, ma'am. 17 Q: And then what's the next event that 18 occurs? 19 A: As we backed up to the start of the 20 sandy parking lot area there was a -- a full punchout 21 ordered. 22 Q: And I'm sorry, when you say, "the 23 start of the sandy parking lot area," do you mean the 24 west side of the sandy parking lot area at East Parkway 25 Drive?


1 A: Yes, ma'am. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: And then there was a -- a full 4 punchout ordered. 5 Q: Do you recall what prompted that? 6 A: There were several Natives who were 7 still coming out of the -- the Park. 8 Q: All right. Was that proceeded by any 9 particular event before a number of individuals come out 10 into the parking lot? 11 A: There was a -- one (1) of the 12 occupiers came out and drew a line in the sand. 13 Q: All right. What do you remember 14 about that? 15 A: He drew a line in the and he had a -- 16 a stick or two by four (2x4) in his hand. 17 Q: All right. Do your recall whether he 18 said anything? 19 A: I believe he said, My father died for 20 this land and if you cross this line you -- just hold on 21 one (1) second, please. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: It was something similar to that. I


1 don't recall the exact words but it was -- it's -- he 2 drew a line in the sand saying, If you cross this line 3 then my fathers had died for this pro -- land and he 4 prepared to die type thing for it. 5 Q: All right. And was it at that point 6 in time or approximately that the full punchout was 7 called? 8 A: About that time. 9 Q: All right. And can you describe then 10 what transpired during this full punchout? 11 A: A full punchout -- as I went forward 12 an occupier ended up in front of my direction of travel 13 as I was heading east towards the Park again and the 14 sandy parking lot. 15 The Native had a two by four (2x4) stick 16 with him and as I -- he had it over his left shoulder, 17 holding it typically like a -- a baseball bat would be 18 held. 19 And as I approached him I had my shield in 20 front of me in my left arm, and as I got closer he came 21 forward with the -- the stick or two by four (2x4) and it 22 was starting to -- on a forward motion. 23 I had contact with the person. He went 24 down on my -- to my left side and I fell forward and went 25 down also.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: As I was passing by, his -- it's 3 appeared he kicked out at me and I tried to block the 4 kick with my stick. I don't believe I had contact with 5 him though. 6 Q: With your stick? 7 A: With -- I'm sorry, with my night 8 stick or my expandable baton, my ASP. 9 Q: Yes. Your ASP baton? 10 A: ASP. 11 Q: And do you know whether or not you 12 made contact with this individual? 13 A: I'm not certain, but I don't believe 14 I did. 15 Q: Do you recall, was this individual 16 the same individual who you saw draw the line in the 17 sand? 18 A: I'm not certain. 19 Q: All right. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And -- all right. Perhaps you could 24 go to page 57 of your notes, then, and commence reading 25 from the punchout call?


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Perhaps at the top where it starts, 4 "A Native came out drawing a line in the sand.", towards 5 the top of that page. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: "Came out followed by several others, 10 carrying wooden sticks. 6 to 7 long -- 11 metres long. Steel post. Extra rocks 12 were being thrown at us. A Native came 13 out drawing a line in the sand. 14 Standing in there was a large stick in 15 his hand. Several others were leaving 16 the Park following -- followed -- 17 following the punchout was ordered and 18 we punched out. The Native who drew 19 the line in the sand was run over by my 20 partner, myself, or someone else. 21 Byron also tripped over him. He landed 22 on his back and kicked out at me. 23 Arrest teams were dealing with him." 24 I wanted to get backup to my partner 25 Schwass. We pushed them back into the Park. Yes.


1 Q: Okay, thank you. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. You indicated that -- did 4 -- could you identify or did you -- were you able to 5 identify the person who you struck with your shield? 6 A: Excuse me. No, ma'am. 7 Q: Do you know now who that person was? 8 A: No, ma'am. 9 Q: All right. And perhaps you can just 10 describe briefly the -- the size and shape of your shield 11 that you made contact with this individual? 12 A: The shield is a clear plastic with 13 Police across it on a diagonal. It has -- it is held in 14 through the center. It is approximately 3 1/2 to 4 feet 15 in length and would be slightly curved with, I'd say, 16 probably about 24 inches wide, approximately. 17 I've never measured it for sure but that 18 would be -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: -- close to that. 21 Q: And approximately how thick is it? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: A quarter inch.


1 Q: All right. And what part of the 2 shield did you make contact with this individual with? 3 A: It'd be the full length of the 4 shield, like it was with my shoulder, my left shoulder 5 and the shield -- 6 Q: And -- 7 A: -- laying up along to my body side. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: Like my -- 10 Q: -- do you recall what part of the -- 11 the body you made contact with the shield on this 12 individual? 13 A: As he was coming forward with the two 14 by four (2x4) it was on the forward motion so it would be 15 the arm's area and then his body -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- in the forward motion. 18 Q: And as a result of that, that you 19 believe that he -- he fell down? 20 A: He did fall down, yes. 21 Q: And did he fall down on his back? 22 A: Yes, ma'am. 23 Q: All right. And then you said that as 24 he went by, he kicked up at you and you -- did you -- you 25 used your baton at that time?


1 A: I swung it trying to block the kick. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: And as I was falling also. 4 Q: Okay. And you don't know today 5 whether or not you actually made contact with your ASP 6 baton and this person's leg or body? 7 A: No, ma'am, I don't. 8 Q: Okay. You don't know one way or 9 another? 10 A: No, I don't, ma'am. 11 Q: And did you fall down? 12 A: Yes, ma'am, I did go down. 13 Q: And what happened next? 14 A: I looked back over my right shoulder 15 as I'd fallen on my shield. And there was some other 16 officers that were coming up from behind. And they were 17 at the individual that I had knocked down. 18 Q: And did you recognize any of these 19 officers? 20 A: No, ma'am. 21 Q: Do you know what squad they came 22 from? 23 A: No, ma'am. 24 Q: But they were from behind you? 25 A: From behind me somewhere.


1 Q: Did they have shields? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: All right. And did you continue to 4 observe this individual as the police officers approached 5 him? 6 A: Not continuously, no. 7 Q: Do you recall how many police 8 officers approached him? 9 A: Initially when I seen it, there was a 10 couple. But then I stood up and we were taking debris so 11 I stood up to block the debris attempting to give 12 everyone that was behind us, protection. 13 Q: With your shield? 14 A: With my shield. 15 Q: All right. And what did you do next? 16 A: I just periodically glanced back to 17 my left and seen that that person was behind me and some 18 other officers. As debris was coming in, it was being 19 thrown, kind of lobbed. 20 As I spoke earlier about almost like a 21 canopy above us. It was almost a dark canopy above us 22 and the stones or interlocking brick were -- it seemed 23 like they were just dropping out of the sky on top of us, 24 so I was trying to block them. 25 I would move side to side and back and


1 forth trying to avoid some of it -- of the impact and 2 redirecting some of it. 3 Q: All right. Now you -- you indicated 4 to me that today you don't recall or you don't know 5 whether you made contact with your ASP baton against this 6 individual. 7 But do you recall giving a statement on 8 September the 8th, 1995 -- perhaps you could go back to 9 Tab 22, Exhibit P-1574. This is a statement that we 10 referred to that you advised about the -- the events of 11 the night of September 6th. 12 A: And what page is that, ma'am? 13 Q: And if you would go then to the 14 fourth page. It's also noted -- noted as four-o-three 15 (403) in marker. 16 And perhaps you -- do you recall that you 17 advised this officer about the events that you've just 18 described to us involving this individual? 19 A: Yes, I described them. 20 Q: Yes. And if you look in the middle 21 of that page it indicates, about halfway down: 22 "The Native struck out his stick and 23 the blow was blocked by a contact 24 member shield. The Native went down on 25 his back and he was kicking out towards


1 me with his left leg. 2 I struck him once with my ASP on the 3 left leg. I continued forward as I 4 wanted to remain in formation with my 5 partner as trained and at that moment 6 Scwhass had gotten ahead of me." 7 Do you recall making that statement? 8 A: I do and it doesn't make -- it kind 9 of seems out of order in the way the events happened. 10 Q: I'm interested in the statement, "I 11 struck him once with my ASP on the left leg." 12 Does that refresh your memory? 13 A: That -- I'm not sure if I made 14 contact with him. That's -- I struck at his left leg but 15 I'm not hundred percent sure that I made contact to his 16 left leg. 17 Q: And so is it your evidence that -- 18 that you mis-described that event here in this statement? 19 A: If you want to use it as mis- 20 described -- the point -- I'm just not hundred percent 21 sure that I -- I did strike at him. As the foot came 22 forward I believe it was his left foot, then I made 23 contact as I was falling forward, I'm not certain. I'm - 24 - I'm not 100 percent sure. 25 Q: Fair to say that your memory would


1 have been more reliable and fresher on September the 8th 2 than today? 3 A: It would be, yes, ma'am. 4 Q: Or the evidence that you gave at the 5 trial of R. vs. Deane in 1997? 6 A: Yes, ma'am. 7 Q: Thank you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: All right. Returning to your notes 12 at page 58 Tab 16, Exhibit P-1570, and you've described 13 for us that you were then in the process of blocking 14 debris with your shield. What -- what happened next? 15 A: As I was moving about there was 16 pieces of burning wood being thrown at us and they were 17 still on fire as they were coming towards us. As I was 18 moving about I kicked a -- a bottle up, it was a clear 19 bottle. 20 Q: You kicked a bottle? 21 A: Yes. It was in the sand. 22 Q: All right. What -- and why did you 23 kick it? 24 A: I didn't see it. 25 Q: You didn't see it. Oh, so it was an


1 accidental -- 2 A: It was in the -- 3 Q: -- contact? 4 A: Yes, ma'am, it was in the sand. 5 Q: And can you tell us -- describe this 6 bottle for us as best you can? 7 A: It was a clear glass bottle with a -- 8 a tall neck. Inside the -- the bottle seemed to be lots 9 of foam. On the top end of the -- the neck there was a - 10 - it appeared to be like a cloth material and on the top 11 of that would be a black, charred object or -- or wick- 12 type thing. 13 Q: All right. And did you -- did you -- 14 was it lit when you saw it? 15 A: No, ma'am. 16 Q: All right. It was already out? 17 A: It was already out. It had been 18 burning with the charring on the end. 19 Q: All right. And are you quite certain 20 that you saw this object? 21 A: Yes, ma'am. 22 Q: Did you draw any conclusion with 23 respect to the nature of the substance that was contained 24 in it? 25 A: I concluded it with -- to be


1 consistent with a Molotov cocktail. 2 Q: All right. And you agree that the 3 Molotov cocktail is a dangerous device? 4 A: Yes, ma'am. 5 Q: Potentially life-threatening? 6 A: Potentially. 7 Q: On par with the throwing of burning 8 sticks in terms of threat? 9 A: Yes, ma'am. 10 Q: On par with the discharge of a 11 firearm against police officers? 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: Now, I noted that in your notes at 14 page 58 you record the throwing of rocks and burned logs 15 at yourself and others. 16 A: Yes, ma'am. 17 Q: And as we will see later you record 18 the discharging of a firearm -- 19 A: Yes, ma'am. 20 Q: -- in your notes. Yet there is no 21 mention in your notes of a Molotov cocktail or anything 22 like it, is that correct? 23 A: That's correct, ma'am. 24 Q: Indeed, if I follow your notes 25 accurately it should have been recorded at the top of


1 page 58 prior to the mention of the statement: 2 "The Native came up with a two by four 3 (2x4) during -- doing two (2) 4 roundhouse swings." 5 Is that right? 6 A: Approximately that -- yeah, that 7 wasn't at me, that was at another CMU member. 8 Q: All right. And I also understand 9 that it was not mentioned in the statement that you gave 10 on September the 8th, 1995, at Tab 22? 11 A: That's correct, ma'am. 12 Q: Nor did you mention any such object 13 to the -- to an SIU investigator during an interview on 14 December the 7th, 1995, which is found at Tab 25, Inquiry 15 Document 1000288? This is an interview you gave to Ed 16 Wilson of the Special Investigations Unit? 17 A: Yes, ma'am. 18 Q: And it's not mentioned there? 19 A: That's correct, ma'am. 20 Q: I'd like to make the statement the 21 next exhibit, please? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1575, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1575: Document Number 1000288. 25 Transcript of statement of


1 Chris Cossitt (interview by 2 Ed. Wilson) December 07, 3 1995. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: I also noted that you did not mention 7 this object in the testimony, the sworn testimony you 8 gave at the trial of R. vs. Cecil Bernard George at Tab 9 26. 10 A: Yes, ma'am. 11 Q: Right. Do you have any explanation 12 as to why you neglected to make any mention of this 13 Molotov cocktail at any of -- during the course of any of 14 those statements or opportunities? 15 A: The best I can explain it, ma'am, is 16 it was extinguished when I initially seen it. It -- I 17 had come in there -- I concluded it had to be thrown, 18 there had to arrive there somehow. 19 I concluded it was a Molotov cocktail. 20 It's a serious event, but it's the type of thing that I 21 seen a brief visual on it. There was lots of -- lots of 22 stuff that was happening round me that was traumatic and 23 the events that followed this is -- impacted me a lot 24 more. 25 And I guess my mind was drawn on that,


1 mistakenly, by my -- by what happened to me later on. 2 Q: And when -- what made it subsequently 3 worthy of note to you? 4 A: It took me a long time to come out of 5 realizing what it was. I didn't expect -- when we did 6 our training, they just briefly talk on Molotov 7 cocktails, what you do, if you encounter them or they're 8 throwing at you, I thought that it was something that I 9 would never, ever encounter. That's something that you 10 would see over, say, the England soccer riots or 11 something. It's never in Canada. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: I just didn't grasp that, that's 14 really what it was. 15 Q: You didn't appreciate that the bottle 16 you saw was a Molotov cocktail, arguably, or some similar 17 device? 18 A: That -- that's correct, yes. 19 Q: I understand the first time that you 20 raised this particular object is at the trial of Kenneth 21 Deane; is that right? 22 A: That's correct, ma'am. 23 Q: If you go to Tab 28. It's an excerpt 24 -- has Inquiry Document Number 1005296. And this is your 25 evidence given in-chief and at cross-examination at the


1 trial of Kenneth Deane, pages 167 to 201. 2 And you recall giving the evidence here? 3 A: Yes, ma'am. 4 Q: And I'd like to make that the next 5 exhibit. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1576, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1576: Document Number 1005296. 9 Transcript of evidence of 10 Chris Cossitt , R. v. Kenneth 11 Deane, (pages 167-201 of 12 transcript) April 09, 1997. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: And if you go to page 174, 16 approximately line 26. 17 "Q: What happened here? 18 A: We were taking debris quite -- it 19 was quite heavy and actually a bottle, 20 a clear bottle with liquid in it and it 21 had a wick out of the end, came and 22 landed about 2 feet in front of me and 23 extinguished itself as it hit in the 24 sand and it didn't break. And I thought 25 I would anticipate -- in my opinion it


1 was a Molotov cocktail and had come 2 out. And fortunately for myself, it 3 didn't break. And then the order to 4 back up was given and started to back 5 up then." 6 Do you recall giving that answer? 7 A: Yes, ma'am. 8 Q: And was that true and accurate when 9 you gave it? 10 A: As best I could at the time, yes. 11 Q: This seems to indicate that you saw 12 the Molotov cocktail extinguish itself as it hit the 13 sand. 14 A: I don't recall it. I recall the 15 aspect of kicking it and this -- uncovering it and 16 underneath the sand. I concluded because it was thrown 17 and because it was lit on the top end of the bottle, like 18 it was choke charring and it was black, consistent with 19 something had been burning there, that I concluded that 20 it had to have been on fire at one time. 21 Q: And you concluded that it 22 extinguished itself as it hit the sand? 23 A: Because it was buried in the sand, 24 ma'am. 25 Q: All right. But you didn't see that?


1 A: No. 2 Q: And this evidence was given on April 3 the 9th, 1997, almost two (2) years after the event? 4 A: Yes, ma'am. 5 Q: And this is the first time that you 6 identified to anyone in the course of a statement or 7 sworn testimony that you believe you saw a Molotov 8 cocktail? 9 A: Yes, ma'am. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: In any event then, going back to page 14 58 of your notes at Tab 16, Exhibit P-1570, you indicate, 15 I believe, that an event involving an individual swinging 16 a two by four (2x4). 17 A: Yes, I described it as someone other 18 than myself in the CMU had contact with the person. 19 Q: All right. And what is it that you 20 recall about that event? 21 A: I remember seeing two (2) swings, 22 roundhouse swings from an occupier and on the second 23 swing this shield breaking. 24 Q: Whose shield? 25 A: I don't know.


1 Q: Someone -- another police officer's? 2 A: Someone in the CMU, ma'am. 3 Q: All right. And were you able to 4 identify this man? 5 A: The officer or the -- 6 Q: The individual -- I'm sorry, swinging 7 the two by four (2x4)? 8 A: No, no, ma'am. 9 Q: All right. And I take it you didn't 10 -- weren't able to identify the officer whose shield was 11 broken? 12 A: No, ma'am. 13 Q: All right. And what if anything did 14 you do when you saw this? 15 A: I stood in my formation. 16 Q: All right. Did you turn your 17 attention back to the individual who was in the process 18 of being apprehended and arrested? 19 A: I didn't monitor the situation behind 20 me continuously. It was just a very brief casual glance 21 back. 22 Q: And did you observe any actions or 23 interaction between the individual who was being 24 apprehended and the police officers around him? 25 A: My -- my glances were very brief and


1 they're always to my left. 2 Q: All right. Did you see anyone 3 administering any blows or strikes to the individual? 4 A: No, ma'am, I can't. 5 Q: Or vice versa? 6 A: I don't recall. 7 Q: Did you see this individual being 8 physically removed from the sandy parking lot? 9 A: As we started to backup -- the CMU, I 10 seen -- looked over my shoulder and the person, I believe 11 was being carried, and I don't recall how, back towards 12 the prisoner van. 13 Q: All right. And as you were backing 14 up, are there any First Nations people currently in the 15 sandy parking lot? 16 A: I believe so. 17 Q: All right. And as you backup did 18 anything of significance then happen? 19 A: As we started backing up -- I don't 20 recall whether it was we came to a full stop or we 21 hesitated to wait for the prisoner vans to pull away. 22 And we just continued backing up towards 23 the bend in the road. 24 Q: Yes. All right. So back to East 25 Parkway Drive?


1 A: Yeah, East Parkway Drive going -- it 2 would be west on East Parkway Drive. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And because of the road 5 characteristics, the CMU had collapsed like an accordion, 6 start to shrink, as we started to get into the narrow 7 roads. 8 And then I heard a loud noise, and then I 9 heard a huge bang and I seen a dumpster that was actually 10 in front of the -- I'll call it a maintenance gate, it 11 came crashing about in a big cloud of dust. 12 Q: All right. And I wonder just before 13 you go on, would you kindly remove the map -- the diagram 14 of the aerial photograph and then behind it you'll see 15 another diagram. Thank you, very much. 16 And you might wish to have your hand held 17 microphone and the pointer as you've anticipated. 18 And first of all, for the benefit of my 19 colleagues, this is reproduced at Exhibit -- sorry, at 20 Tab 20, Inquiry Document 1000080. 21 It appears to be a topographical diagram 22 of the sandy parking lot and East Parkway Drive area; is 23 that fair? 24 A: Yes, ma'am. 25 Q: And I understand that -- well, did


1 you make markings on this map as part of your interview 2 with the SIU in September 1995? 3 A: Yes, ma'am. 4 Q: And maybe you could just record the 5 date. I believe it was September 20 -- 6 A: 27th. 7 Q: -- 27th, 1995? 8 A: That's correct, ma'am. 9 Q: All right. And I'd like that 10 diagram, the -- the large diagram to be the next exhibit, 11 please? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1577, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1577: Topographical map of 15 Ipperwash Provincial Park, 16 marked and signed by Chris 17 Cossitt, September 27, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: And perhaps you can, using your laser 21 pointer, show us the location where you first observed 22 the bus and the dumpster coming -- striking the dumpster 23 coming out of the Park? 24 A: About this area, ma'am. 25 Q: All right. And that is so labelled?


1 A: With "dumpster" here and the location 2 of the bus. 3 Q: Right. Thank you. And where were 4 you when you first saw this and heard this? Were you yet 5 on the -- on the road or were you still in the sandy -- 6 sandy parking lot? 7 A: I believe I would be down in this 8 area here. 9 Q: So all -- you're marking the -- the 10 sandy -- or you're on East Parkway Drive? 11 A: Yes, ma'am. 12 Q: All right. And what happens next? 13 A: As the bus comes forward it appeared 14 out of a -- a cloud of dust and the bus appeared to be 15 accelerating and it was very loud. It seemed to be 16 weaving. And I went initially to the south side of East 17 Parkway Drive -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- and it -- to the sandy shoulder. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: And the bus just, in my opinion 22 seemed to follow me and as it weaved it came forward. 23 There's a small decline, I wouldn't even want to call it 24 a ditch, in the sandy shoulder. There's several officers 25 in that area and there were some other officers were


1 trying to jump over the fence that was there. 2 I stopped and hesitated and then I -- as 3 the bus came forward, closer to me, I ran back towards 4 the asphalt portion of the road, to the East -- 5 Q: The center of the road? 6 A: To the center of the road, ma'am. 7 Q: And did you show on that diagram the 8 general path of the bus as it approached from the Park? 9 A: Yes, ma'am, it shows this -- a weave. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: And that's where I would be, 12 approximately. 13 Q: All right. And that's so marked on - 14 - on the diagram? 15 A: Yes, ma'am. 16 Q: All right. And as you go back to the 17 center of the road as the bus is coming -- advancing 18 towards the -- the TOC what -- what happens? 19 A: I run back to the center of the road 20 and the bus missed me. I could feel the breeze of the 21 bus going by me type thing; it was about 18 inches from 22 me. 23 Q: All right. And on which side of the 24 bus were you when it went by you; was it the passenger 25 side or the driver's side?


1 A: It would be the passenger side where 2 the doorway would -- where you would enter into it. 3 Q: All right. Do you recall whether or 4 not its headlights were on as it approached and passed 5 you? 6 A: I don't recall that, ma'am. 7 Q: As it came close to you could you see 8 the occupants in the bus? 9 A: No, ma'am. 10 Q: All right. And what did you do -- so 11 first of all did the -- did the bus strike you? 12 A: No, ma'am, it didn't. 13 Q: Did it -- did you see it strike any 14 other police officer? 15 A: I personally didn't, no. 16 Q: All right. And you indicated it 17 missed you by about, you thought, 18 inches? 18 A: Approximately. I was running, ma'am. 19 Q: Did you see at this time any gunfire 20 emanating from the bus? 21 A: I don't recall anything. 22 Q: Did you see any firearms in or 23 protruding from the bus as it passed you? 24 A: No, ma'am. 25 Q: Did you follow the bus after it


1 passed by you? 2 A: No, ma'am. 3 Q: Why not? 4 A: As the bus was about halfway to the 5 rear axles I had another event happen that I had -- there 6 was a -- a car following the bus. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Through this -- the cloud of dust 9 that the bus had drawn up as it went by me all I can 10 remember is seeing four (4) rectangular headlights. 11 Q: From this car? 12 A: From a car that was following the 13 bus. 14 Q: Okay. And were the -- the headlights 15 on of -- 16 A: Yes, ma'am. 17 Q: -- the car? And can you show us on 18 the diagram where you marked the approximate location of 19 the car when it -- when you first observed it coming 20 towards you? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: I believe there's a notation that 25 reads:


1 "Approximate location of car when I 2 first observed it coming towards me -- 3 A: Approximately there, ma'am. I think 4 that's the one. 5 Q: Okay. And so you're marking on -- 6 obviously on the East Parkway Drive. 7 A: Yes, ma'am. 8 Q: All right. And that's so marked on 9 the map as such; it's labelled? 10 A: Yes, ma'am, it is. 11 Q: All right. And are you still in the 12 centre of the road, approximately? 13 A: Approximately, yes. 14 Q: And were you concerned about the path 15 of the car? 16 A: It looked like it was coming straight 17 at me. 18 Q: All right. Did it hit you? 19 A: No, ma'am. It veered to the right. 20 Q: And when you say, "to the right," 21 what direction? 22 A: To the north or to the lakeside. 23 Q: Lakeside of East Parkway Drive? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: All right. And what did you see as


1 it veered north? 2 A: There was several -- I seen several 3 officers standing on the sandy shoulder from the -- 4 Q: On the north side of East Parkway 5 Drive? 6 A: Yes. On the lakeside, north -- north 7 side. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Kind of a sandy shoulder there, and 10 there was several officers standing there. I seen the 11 car all of sudden veer right and head straight for them 12 and hit the officers. 13 Q: All right. And at this time, are you 14 on the driver's side or passenger side of the car? 15 A: I would be on the driver's side, 16 ma'am. 17 Q: All right. And approximately how far 18 away were you from the car and the officers as you saw it 19 make contact with them? 20 A: I did three (3) or four (4) running 21 steps and I was at the side of the car. 22 Q: You were at the car? 23 A: As -- as the car hit the guys, I seen 24 them on the hood of the car. 25 Q: Yes.


1 A: It was about three (3) or four (4) 2 running steps and I was at the side of the car. 3 Q: Okay. And can you show on the map 4 the approximate location where you saw the CMU members 5 struck on the diagram? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Approximately here, ma'am. 10 Q: All right. And that is also labelled 11 on the diagram? 12 A: Yes, ma'am, it's labelled right here. 13 Q: And where was your approximate 14 location when the car struck the CMU members? 15 A: Approximately there. 16 Q: And again, that is labelled and 17 marked on the diagram? 18 A: Yes, ma'am, it is. 19 Q: All right. And you indicated that 20 when you saw the officers struck by the car, you took 21 three (3) or four (4) running steps? 22 A: That's correct, ma'am. 23 Q: And you were at what -- where did 24 that bring you to? 25 A: It brought me to the side of the car


1 at the A post of the windshield. 2 Q: Okay. The -- the windshield, which - 3 - and is that the driver's side? 4 A: On the driver's side. 5 Q: Is that close to where the rear view 6 window would be -- mirror? 7 A: Rear view mirror? 8 Q: Excuse me. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And what was the purpose 11 of you approaching the car? 12 A: My -- my thoughts was to render 13 assistance to the officers that were hit. And I noticed 14 the driver's window was down. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: So I -- I ran up to the vehicle at 17 the windshield at the A post as it goes up and I had my 18 shield in my left hand. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And up to the car and I raised my 21 baton with my right hand. I'm right handed. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: And I was going to strike the driver 24 with my baton, my ASP. 25 Q: And did you actually make physical


1 contact with the car? 2 A: I would have touched it, yes. 3 Q: Okay. And did you make contact with 4 the driver? 5 A: No, ma'am, I did not. 6 Q: What happened next? 7 A: What happened next was I -- as I was 8 standing there with my arm extended back, I seen a -- 9 from approximately the center of the door, a barrel 10 weapon or barrel come out, and it started from the center 11 -- from the rear end of the window, it started coming 12 forward towards my area in front of the rear view mirror, 13 and it kind of swept forward. 14 And it was a barrel that I recognized as 15 being consistent with a 12 gauge shot gun. And as it 16 swung forward, it was on a upward angle and I was 17 extended straight up with my right arm and the weapon 18 discharged and came up on an angle in front of me. 19 Q: All right. Now, at -- can you just 20 be a little bit more particular in describing the object 21 that you've just indicated you saw discharge? 22 A: In my view -- thoughts was it was a 23 shotgun because I have -- it was about 3/4 of an inch in 24 diameter. 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: It was an open barrel and it was 2 about -- I could see about 4 inches -- 3 Q: 4 -- 4 A: -- of a barrel -- 5 Q: -- 4 inches -- 6 A: 4 inches of a barrel extending out 7 from the window, the open window, driver's window. 8 Q: Is this the driver's window? 9 A: The driver's window, yes. 10 Q: All right. Did you see anything else 11 of this object aside from the 4 inches of the barrel 12 protruding? 13 A: No, ma'am, I did not. 14 Q: All right. And are you looking at it 15 head on, if you will, or are you looking at it from the 16 side? 17 A: I'm kind of forward in front of the 18 side view mirror and I'm looking kind of a little to my 19 left and down at it. 20 Q: And you indicated when it discharged 21 it was on an angle. Can you describe the angle, please? 22 A: It went upwards from the driver's -- 23 the open driver's window from basically the -- the 24 framing of the car, it went upward in a 30/45 degree 25 angle upward in front of me.


1 Q: All right. As it discharged? 2 A: As it discharged, yes. 3 Q: And how far away were you from this 4 barrel when it discharged? 5 A: About 12 inches. 6 Q: 12 inches? 7 A: Yes, ma'am. 8 Q: Could you feel anything as it 9 discharged? 10 A: I could see the muzzle flash from it. 11 I can feel the -- the heat. I didn't stay there. 12 Q: All right. And can you describe the 13 -- the -- what you've just called the muzzle flash? 14 A: It was a -- a flash of light. It 15 started from the barrel and extended out and -- 16 Q: How far? 17 A: It was -- I would say about 12 18 inches, 15 inches out of the barrel, approximately. 19 Q: All right. Up to this point in time 20 had you heard any other sounds, like gunshots? 21 A: I -- I don't recall at that point. 22 Q: Can you describe the sound that this 23 object made? 24 A: It was a loud thunderous bang. 25 Q: And based on the -- the sound of the


1 shot, when you say loud thunderous, what's that -- what 2 kind of fire weapons would that be consistent with? 3 A: In my opinion, a shotgun, ma'am. 4 Q: A shotgun? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And why do you say that? 7 A: I've had experiences with shotguns. 8 It's one of the weapons that I've been trained on and I 9 actually own a 12 gauge myself. 10 Q: All right. And did you have any 11 difficulty hearing this gunshot, given that you were 12 hearing -- or what you've described as a gunshot, given 13 that you were wearing a helmet? 14 A: None at all. 15 Q: I imagine it was very, very loud. 16 A: Very loud. 17 Q: And was that the loudest sound that 18 you heard that night? 19 A: Yes, ma'am. 20 Q: Was your hearing impacted by this -- 21 this sound as it was discharged? 22 A: I don't recall that, no. 23 Q: All right. And when you first saw 24 this object, what did you do? 25 A: As it discharged I rolled to the


1 front portion of the car over my right shoulder. It just 2 started rolling to the right, kind of along the front 3 corner panel, driver's side of the vehicle. And then I 4 dove forward onto the asphalt on the roadway. And I fell 5 and skinned my knees up. 6 Q: All right. And I'm sorry, which side 7 of the road did you fall towards? 8 A: It would be -- it was the asphalt 9 portion of the roadway that I was on. It would be 10 towards the center of the road I was diving for. 11 Q: And I believe you described this 12 event during your statement given on September the 8th, 13 1995 at Tab 22, Exhibit P-1574. 14 A: Excuse me. I'm sorry I missed some 15 of that. 16 Q: And if you would go to page 6 of that 17 document at Tab 22. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: The bottom of page 6, please? Can 22 you commence reading from -- at that point? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: Seven (7) lines from the bottom? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: It's at Tab 22? 6 Q: Yes, please. 7 A: And 406? 8 Q: Page 6, not 406. 9 A: Oh, I'm sorry. 10 Q: Sorry, which is page 405. And about 11 seven (7) lines from the bottom: 12 "At that point..." 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: "At that point I saw a 4 inch barrel 17 firearm come out of an open window of 18 the -- all I saw was this barrel. My 19 eyes were trained on it completely and 20 I was fixed on it. It may -- that -- 21 be that a hand came out but I was 22 concentrating on the barrel. It was a 23 barrel -- parallel to where I was 24 standing." 25 Q: Yes?


1 A: "Not at me. I saw a muzzle flash 2 along with a bang and a flash. It went 3 upward motion from my left to right. I 4 saw only one (1) flash. I thought I 5 was going to die and he was going to 6 shoot me." 7 Q: And the next line? 8 A: "I reacted by turning out to my right 9 to bring my shield up to protect my 10 head. At the same time the car started 11 to reverse, then it came forward 12 slightly towards me, then it reversed 13 in a quick fashion." 14 Q: All right. Thank you. Now were you, 15 in fact, during this time period, fixated on the barrel? 16 A: Yes, ma'am, I was. 17 Q: You weren't looking at the person who 18 was allegedly holding onto it? 19 A: No, ma'am, I was not. 20 Q: You don't recall today whether you 21 saw -- seeing a hand out of the window? 22 A: No, I don't recall. I don't recall 23 seeing anybody inside the vehicle, ma'am. 24 Q: All right. And I understand that you 25 had your baton out, if you will, already, when this


1 barrel protruded from the window? 2 A: That's correct, ma'am. 3 Q: And how -- how long is the -- or 4 what's the reach of the ASP baton when it's extended? 5 A: It would be -- with my arm involved 6 in it? 7 Q: What's -- 8 A: Say 3 feet -- 9 Q: What's -- 10 A: -- with my arm extended back, yes. 11 Q: Sorry, what's the length of the ASP 12 baton? 13 A: The ASP baton would be -- normally 14 it's a 26 inch. 15 Q: All right. And you were 16 approximately how far away from the -- the barrel when -- 17 when you saw it? 18 A: When I -- I initially saw it? As it 19 initially came out of the open window, it would be 20 20 inches, 24 inches from me. 21 Q: Why didn't you strike the gun barrel 22 with your baton? 23 A: I never thought of that. 24 Q: Now, did you mark on the diagram 25 behind you the approximate location of the car after it


1 struck the CMU members and you approached the car on the 2 driver's side? 3 A: I did, ma'am, it's right about there. 4 Q: All right. And that -- was the car 5 in the same posi -- in that same position when you saw 6 what you've described as a muzzle flash from inside the 7 car? 8 A: Yes, ma'am. 9 Q: And that's so labelled on the 10 diagram? 11 A: I believe it is, ma'am. 12 Q: And did you also mark your position 13 or your location when the muzzle flashes observed by you 14 from the interior of the car? 15 A: I think that's a spot that shows me 16 up against the car. 17 Q: Yes. And that's so labelled? 18 A: Yes, ma'am. 19 Q: Thank you. You indicated next that 20 the car started to reverse, did it? 21 A: Yes, ma'am. The car -- the car 22 reversed. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And stopped. And I don't know why, 25 but it pulled forward.


1 Q: How far? 2 A: Not far. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And then reversed back out. 5 Q: All right. And as this car is -- is 6 making this manouevre, do you observe anything in and 7 around the car? 8 A: As I was falling off, rolling off the 9 car and diving forward, I looked back at the car and I 10 seen sparks. 11 Q: Sparks from where? 12 A: From the side of the car. 13 Q: Sorry, from -- 14 A: From the side of the car, around the 15 car. 16 Q: On -- on the side of the car? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And did you mark on your 19 diagram the approximate path of the car reversing, 20 stopping, then coming forward a few feet, then driving 21 back towards the Park? 22 A: Yes, ma'am, right about there. 23 Reversed back to about, I believe it was here. 24 Q: All right. And just for the record, 25 that's also so labelled on the map?


1 A: Yes, ma'am. 2 Q: Okay. And where was the approximate 3 -- sorry, what -- what happened next? 4 A: As the car backed up, it went back 5 towards the Park area and I looked over my shoulder as I 6 was still on the center of the road and I could -- I'm 7 not sure if I heard first or seen first, the bus was 8 coming back, backing -- reversing back through the CMU 9 area. 10 Q: Okay. So at that point in time you 11 had -- you had lost sight of the bus when it travelled 12 past you, heading towards the TOC area. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And now the bus is reversing back 15 towards your path? 16 A: Yes, ma'am. 17 Q: All right. And -- all right. And 18 did you mark on the map the return path of the bus that 19 you observed as it reversed back towards the Park? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. It's -- I think it's 21 that dotted line right -- it kind of follows back here. 22 Q: All right. And that's so labelled on 23 your diagram? 24 A: Yes, ma'am. 25 Q: All right. Now, did you fear for


1 your life when the gun discharged? 2 A: Yes, ma'am. 3 Q: Would you, in your estimation, have 4 had reasonable grounds to use lethal force against the 5 car driver after you saw the firearm discharge? 6 A: Yes, ma'am. 7 Q: Including discharging your own 8 firearm? 9 A: Yes, ma'am. 10 Q: Were you the closest officer to the 11 car at the time the firearm discharged? 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: Was there any officers between you 14 and the car? 15 A: I was the only one there. 16 Q: And what type of firearm did you 17 have? 18 A: I had the issued police .40 calibre 19 sidearm pistol. 20 Q: Why didn't you shoot at the car 21 driver? 22 A: I felt that I had to get out of 23 there. My life was in jeopardy and I couldn't access my 24 weapon quick enough, so I tried to get away, make 25 distance.


1 Q: Did you discharge your firearm 2 thereafter? 3 A: No, ma'am, I did not. 4 Q: Why not? 5 A: The car left, the threat had left and 6 went back into the Camp. And then I had to deal with the 7 situation of the bus coming back down on me. 8 Q: All right. Did you see what happened 9 to -- to the car once the bus re-enters the scene? 10 A: No, I really don't recall what 11 happened. 12 Q: All right. Did you see it return to 13 the Park? 14 A: I believe it did go back to the Park. 15 Q: But did you see it? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Perhaps if you look at the diagram, 20 did you mark on the diagram the approximate last location 21 where you saw the car? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Yes, ma'am, approximately here.


1 Q: All right. And that's -- so you 2 didn't -- so you saw it -- the last time you saw it, it 3 was in the sandy parking lot? 4 A: Yes, it was -- 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Yes, it would be in that area. 7 Q: Fair enough. Perhaps -- I see I've 8 gone past the morning break time. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this a 10 good time to break or do you want to go a bit longer? 11 You decide when you reach a point -- 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, we can -- we can 13 break at this time. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We could 15 break now? 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's fine. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then we'll 18 take the morning break now. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 20 for fifteen (15) minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 10:39 a.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 10:56 a.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now


1 resumed. Please be seated. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: Now just prior to the break, you were 5 -- you had concluded with the return of the bus into your 6 line of vision, but just prior to that sequence of events 7 which you'll describe in a few moments, I would like you 8 to go back to Tab 16, Exhibit P-1570 which is your notes 9 of September the 6th. And it's at page 59, in 10 particular. 11 And just before I ask you to read in that 12 portion of your notes, can you tell me what is your best 13 recollection as to when you wrote the notes relative to 14 these events? 15 A: I believe it was the next day. 16 Q: The 7th of September? 17 A: Yes, ma'am. 18 Q: And do you recall where you were when 19 you created them? 20 A: I'm not certain. 21 Q: Do you recall whether you sat down 22 and wrote them all in one go or whether it was sporadic? 23 Or how did that work? 24 A: I believe it was sporadic. It wasn't 25 all at once. It was the type of thing where we would --


1 reported back for duty the next day and we had different 2 assignments, so I was doing my notes as best I could and 3 as accurately as I could. 4 Q: And did you create your notes in 5 conjunction or in consultation with anyone else? 6 A: No, ma'am, I did not. 7 Q: All right. And if you look at page 8 59 then. I would like you to start reading this -- this 9 is a section that relates to the -- to the car and your 10 encounter with the car. 11 I wonder if you would start, I think it's 12 6 lines from the top, "I started to the right...". 13 A: "I started to the right and was cut 14 off as the bus seemed to be going 15 straight where I was going to. Stopped 16 and turned, the bus missed me by about 17 eighteen (18) inches. 18 I ran to the left. Out from behind the 19 -- the bus came a silver Chrysler Fifth 20 Avenue 4-door. At first it didn't have 21 headlights on. It went straight for 22 the guys on the left side of the bus. 23 Went one side of me, the car, the other 24 side. High beams were on the car. It 25 had four (4) headlights.


1 It ran into four (4) or five (5) guys." 2 Q: It ran straight into four (4) or five 3 (5) guys? 4 A: I'm sorry, "it ran straight into four 5 (4) and five (5) guys." 6 Q: And just for the benefit of My 7 Colleagues you have to go to Tab 17 for the next -- for 8 page 60 but, Officer, you're reading from your notes -- 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: -- in your notebook? All right. 11 A: Yes. 12 "I seen three (3) on the hood. One (1) 13 male was pinned, legs under the bumper 14 of the sand..." 15 Q: Bank? 16 A: "...bank. I ran to the vehicle 17 approaching from the front driver's 18 side. As I reached the windshield area 19 I had my shield up and my stick back to 20 hit the driver. A short barrel, 21 appeared to be a shotgun style. The 22 window was down. I seen 4 to 5 inches 23 and heard a bang like, a shot and 24 muzzle flash." 25 Q: And the muzzle flash, okay.


1 A: Yes. 2 "The flash went straight out the 3 window, the vehicle backed out. I 4 rolled off and the vehicle came forward 5 at me. I dove across into the ditch 6 area. It was full with guys." 7 Q: And then everyone has to go back to 8 Tab 16, please, page 61. 9 A: "The vehicle just missed me." 10 Q: All right. And maybe you can just 11 stop right there. 12 All right. And does that refresh your 13 memory with respect to the description of the car that 14 you saw? 15 A: Yes, ma'am. 16 Q: And did you be -- you saw it to be a 17 silver Chrysler, Fifth Avenue, 4-door? 18 A: Yes, ma'am. 19 Q: And does that refresh your memory 20 with respect to the number of individuals you saw struck 21 by it? 22 A: Yes, approximately. 23 Q: All right. And I note that you 24 describe the barrel as shotgun-like or shotgun style, 25 excuse me?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And if you go to page 20 -- sorry, 3 Tab 22, this is your statement of September 8th, 1995, 4 Exhibit P-1574. 5 And if you go to page 6 of that statement 6 or it's also referenced 405, you also give a statement 7 with respect to the car encounter? Do you see that? And 8 if you look -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- about twelve (12) -- eleven (11) 11 lines down from the top: 12 "I was right on the car at that point." 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. This is at a point in 15 time after -- when -- when the members have been struck 16 by the car. You -- you say that you: 17 "Went right up to the driver's window 18 on a 45 degree angle. I had my shield 19 up, held up my left arm. I placed my 20 shield right up against the 'A' pillar 21 of the windshield. I had my right arm 22 back with my ASP in it. I wanted to 23 strike the driver was the male Native 24 that -- this is the best I can describe 25 him. I wanted to strike in an attempt


1 to stop him from running over our guys 2 and I wanted to strike him in the arm 3 area." 4 Now, just for clarification though you -- 5 you never saw his arm area did you? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. And then you say: 8 "At that point I saw a 4 inch barrelled 9 firearm come out from the opened 10 window. All I saw was this barrel." 11 And we -- we read the rest of that 12 earlier. 13 And I note that in this statement on the 14 8th you describe the barrel as being associated with a 15 firearm and not a shotgun? 16 A: In -- in my -- I believe a shotgun is 17 -- my interpretation is it is a firearm. It's -- they 18 got a rifle, shotgun; they're all firearms. Handguns are 19 firearms. 20 Q: Did you not think it appropriate or 21 important to describe with more specificity the object 22 you believe you saw, to the -- the officer on the 8th? 23 A: I don't recall what I was thinking 24 back then. I'm sorry. 25 Q: All right. In any event then --


1 after the -- the car reverses by you you say that the -- 2 the bus then reverses towards your position on East 3 Parkway Drive? 4 A: Yes, I was in the center area of the 5 road. 6 Q: All right. You're in the center area 7 of the road. 8 Q: All right. You're in the center area 9 of the road now. And describe what you see and what you 10 hear. 11 A: I go to the or move over to the south 12 shoulder of the road and I had nowhere else to run as the 13 bus was reversing back on the asphalt portion. 14 Q: And what side? Is the -- the 15 lakeside or the Highway 21 side of the road? 16 A: South side, the Highway -- 17 Q: South side. 18 A: -- 21. 19 Q: Thank you. 20 A: And I took a knee and I bent down, 21 put my shield up beside me and looked over my left 22 shoulder. 23 Q: All right. What did you see as you 24 looked over your left shoulder? 25 A: The bus was back -- reversing back


1 through the area of the CMU on the asphalt portion. 2 Q: All right. And what -- what did you 3 observe next? 4 A: The bus continued past me. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And there was several officers in the 7 -- the decline in the roadway or the sandy portion of the 8 -- the ditch area, I guess we'll call it. And I just 9 watched the bus as it went by; looked at some of the 10 other officers as they were in the ditch area. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: And then I heard some I -- I would 13 conclude would be gunshots. 14 Q: All right. And where are you when 15 you hear these gunshots? 16 A: I'm knelt down on the south side of 17 the road in the sandy area. 18 Q: All right. And is -- where's the 19 bus, relative to you when you hear these sounds? 20 A: It would be just to my left on -- 21 would be the north, on the travel portion on the roadway. 22 Q: All right. Has it passed you yet? 23 A: It's -- when I take note of it when - 24 - by my memory would be -- it would be just beside me. 25 Q: All right, okay. Carry on.


1 A: And as the gunshots seemed to be 2 beside me and above me and they seemed to follow the bus. 3 They're coming from the area of the bus. I can't say 4 whether or not they were coming from the bus, but in the 5 area of the bus. 6 Q: All right. And what was the basis of 7 that conclusion or assumption? 8 A: Just that assumption was because of 9 that -- the way this -- the sound was coming from above 10 me. 11 Q: All right. And do you -- could you 12 distinguish the number of shots that you heard at this 13 time? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I don't recall. 18 Q: All right. Were you able to 19 distinguish the types of firearms being discharged? 20 A: No, not at that point. 21 Q: To -- to your recollection, did you 22 hear more than one (1) type of firearm or could you tell? 23 A: I couldn't recall. I don't recall. 24 Q: All right. All right. And what 25 happened thereafter?


1 A: The bus continued back towards the 2 Park and I got up and started to -- checking on some of 3 the officers that were beside me, making sure everybody 4 was okay. 5 Q: All right. All right then. Now, 6 perhaps before we go to the next sequence of events, we 7 could return to Tab 16 for your notes, Exhibit P-1570. 8 And we're now at page 61. 9 And would you kindly read your notes, from 10 your notes, commencing with: 11 "Then next thing the bus is coming 12 back, reversing." 13 Which I believe is the beginning of the 14 sequence of your recording of this event. It's just 15 about halfway down. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Just above the break. 20 A: Was that page 60 or 61? 21 Q: 61, please. 22 A: Oh, I'm sorry. 23 Q: That's all right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 2 Q: All right. Five (5) lines from the 3 center break above it. 4 A: Oh, I'm sorry, yeah. 5 Q: "Next thing..." 6 A: "The -- the bus is coming back, 7 reversing rapidly. Shots were being 8 fired from it. I used my shield for 9 protection and it was, or it passed 10 heading back towards the Park." 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: "I heard numerous shots coming from 13 the bus on it's first pass and the 14 second pass. Seen the one from the 15 car. We got everyone backing up." 16 Q: Okay. Thank you. That's -- that's 17 sufficient for -- for now. 18 Now you say in this note that you heard 19 numerous shots coming from the bus. What did you mean to 20 convey by that? 21 A: In the area of the bus because it 22 appear -- or it sounded like it was coming from above me. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: And the only thing that was of that - 25 - above me, was the bus.


1 Q: Okay. And if you go to Tab 25, this 2 is Exhibit P-1575. This is the SIU statement which you 3 provided December the 7th, 1995, page 21, if you would go 4 please to that page number. 5 There's an exchange between you and 6 Officer Wilson who was interviewing you. You're speaking 7 with respect to a -- hearing shots associated with the 8 bus. At the TOC you say: 9 "I initially picked up the popping or 10 gunfire. I guess we should use it as 11 gunfire if it's going to be gunfire." 12 And Wilson: 13 "Okay. 14 COSSITT: Just as the bus was coming to 15 my position, as it was coming north 16 towards me, just as it was arriving 17 right, just prior to me, I could hear 18 the popping or gunfire as it was -- it 19 was just like bang, bang, bang, bang, 20 out the -- it was coming from the rear 21 of the bus. 22 And as it started to get away from me, 23 I could hear it continuing and the 24 sound started to deteriorate as it 25 drove from me. As the front of the bus


1 come towards me it wasn't as loud. 2 Q: Okay, so whoever was discharging a 3 firearm on the bus was at the rear of 4 the bus? 5 COSSITT: Yes, sir, I would..." 6 And then it says "mumbling". 7 "WILSON: Rear portion? 8 COSSITT: Rear portion of the bus. 9 WILSON: Okay. You feel that the 10 shots were coming from the driver's 11 side of the bus or were you able to 12 tell that? 13 COSSITT: I wasn't really able to tell 14 that. But I wasn't able to tell that. 15 WILSON: Okay. How many shots do you 16 figure you heard all in all coming from 17 the bus? 18 COSSITT: I would say five (5) to six 19 (6), around that. 20 WILSON: Okay. Could they have come 21 from anywhere other than the bus, the 22 ones you heard? 23 COSSITT: No, sir. I'm positive that 24 there was -- those shots were coming 25 from the bus.


1 WILSON: Okay. 2 COSSITT: I was focussed on that. 3 WILSON: The only reason I ask you 4 that, was like I know there was 5 discharging of firearms, I just wonder 6 if it could have been one of the other 7 officers that were in a different 8 location. 9 COSSITT: No, sir, I'm positive, there 10 were shots coming from the bus. The 11 other officer was up the road further 12 from me, the sound was initially as I 13 was crouched down -- I was actually 14 crouched down and I was kind of facing 15 in a northwest direction kind a -- as I 16 was crouched down around my shield 17 attempting to get as much cover as I 18 could for what I had and it was coming 19 up and I could hear it as a momentum 20 coming -- [sorry], going by me. It 21 wasn't similar to someone standing 22 there at a constant location banging 23 off. 24 This thing was continuous as it -- the 25 different percentages that it went by


1 me the -- the sound levels, they 2 changed. 3 WILSON: Okay. 4 COSSITT: And there's no doubt in my 5 mind that it was coming from the bus." 6 Now, do you recall making those statements 7 to Ed Wilson? 8 A: Yes, ma'am. 9 Q: And do you agree that, in that 10 interview you certainly appeared to be positive that the 11 bus -- that the shots were coming from the bus and not 12 another officer and from the rear of the bus? 13 A: As I heard the -- the shots, they 14 sounded above me. And I drew a conclusion because they 15 were above me which would be consistent with the height 16 level of the bus and I heard a -- firearms as the bus was 17 beside me which would be the rear portion as it was 18 coming, I could hear the firearms. 19 I didn't see any muzzle flashes coming 20 from the bus. I didn't see any firearms coming out of 21 the bus. I assumed that's where it was coming because 22 it's -- as I was kneeled down and looking over my left 23 shoulder I could hear the sounds coming from above me and 24 as the bus moved past me I could hear that sound follow 25 the bus.


1 Q: But on September the -- sorry, 2 December the 7th, 1995, it was at that time your 3 assumption that the gunfire came from the bus? 4 A: Yes, I was drawing that conclusion, 5 then, yes. 6 Q: And you have subsequently changed 7 your mind? 8 A: I -- I haven't changed my mind, that 9 coming from the area of the bus, I'm not certain if it 10 was coming from inside the bus. 11 Q: All right. So when you said you were 12 positive to Officer Wilson, now you are not positive? 13 You -- you made an assumption and you're questioning that 14 assumption? 15 A: In the aspect that I drew a 16 conclusion because of where the sounds were coming from. 17 Q: All right. Now, did you observe or 18 feel any shots bounce of your shield or around you? 19 A: No, ma'am. 20 Q: All right. And do you recall giving 21 evidence at the trial of R. vs. Kenneth Deane? 22 A: Yes, ma'am. 23 Q: And if you go to Tab 28, Exhibit 24 1576, page 181 to 182, and you are giving testimony with 25 respect to the gunshots around the bus. And if you go at


1 line 20: 2 "Q: Describe what you saw [this is 3 with respect to the bus reversing]. 4 Describe what you saw prior to that 5 happening. 6 A: I heard some banging. What I had 7 done is I went down on my right knee 8 and I tried to cover myself by keeping 9 my head down and crouched as much as I 10 could and using the colour of my 11 uniform, the dark colour, that it would 12 give me the best covering. I could -- 13 I -- and I heard banging. It sounded 14 like gunfire. 15 Q: Try and capture if you would your 16 state of mind at that point. 17 A: I was concerned for my well being 18 at that point and I was trying to get 19 as much protection as I could to get 20 away from the situation that was before 21 me. 22 Q: Have you any impression of where 23 the bus was when you heard the gunfire? 24 A: I was here and the first shots I 25 heard was the bus would be almost


1 beside me at that point. 2 Q: How many times in your past 3 work..." 4 And -- and et cetera. That's -- it's not 5 relevant but in any event do you agree that in -- in the 6 trial of Kenneth Deane you -- you in fact indicate -- 7 don't indicate that the gunfire came from the bus by that 8 time? 9 A: I'm sorry, I don't -- 10 Q: You -- that it did not emanate from 11 the bus? 12 A: Yes, I'm not conclusive to where it 13 came from. It came from the area of the bus. 14 Q: Thank you. Now, aside from the 15 barrel you saw protruding from the car which you told us 16 about, did you see any other First Nations persons with a 17 firearm that night? 18 A: No, ma'am. 19 Q: Did you see any other -- any police 20 officers fire or discharge their firearms that night? 21 A: I believe as the bus reversed past me 22 I seen one (1) officer, I think it was Constable Sharp. 23 Q: Do you know how many or did you 24 observe how many fire -- rounds he fired? 25 A: I'm not certain but I think it was


1 one (1). 2 Q: All right. And to be clear did you 3 discharge your firearm at any time over the course of 4 this deployment? 5 A: No, ma'am. 6 Q: Did you see any muzzle flash aside 7 from the one protruding from the car that you've just 8 describe? 9 A: No, ma'am. 10 Q: At any point during the sounds of the 11 gunfire or shortly thereafter did you see any First 12 Nation person appear to be shot? 13 A: No, ma'am. 14 Q: Did you see any First Nations person 15 stumble in the sandy parking lot area during the course 16 of the gunshots which you've describe, or shortly 17 thereafter? 18 A: No, ma'am. 19 Q: Were you focussed on what was going 20 on in the sandy parking lot during the time that you were 21 engaged with the car and the bus reversing past you on 22 East Parkway Drive? 23 A: No, ma'am, I wasn't. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 2 Q: At what point in time, relative to 3 the bus reversing back towards the Park, did the gunfire 4 stop? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: I -- what I recall was at -- the bus 9 went by me, that's when I recall the last shots. I don't 10 recall any more after that. 11 Q: All right. And what did you do after 12 the bus went by you and you no longer heard gunfire? 13 A: I started checking on the well-being 14 of the other officers in the CMU. 15 Q: All right. And what did you find? 16 A: I found a walkie-talkie laying on the 17 road. It had broken antenna. It wasn't a police issue. 18 And I picked it up and I was putting it in my pants 19 pocket, my cargo pocket in my pants -- 20 Q: All right. 21 A: -- to take back to our TOC. 22 Q: And I believe that that's reflected 23 in your notes at page 61 at Tab 16, Exhibit 1570. 24 A: Yes, it is reflected in my notes, 25 ma'am.


1 Q: All right. And what did you do 2 thereafter? 3 A: I took the portable back with me and 4 I turned it over to Inspector Carson. 5 Q: At the TOC? 6 A: At the -- yes, at the TOC, the MNR 7 parking lot. 8 Q: All right. And did -- did anything 9 else -- did anything of consequence occur on your return 10 to the TOC? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I have noted in my notebook that as I 15 was putting the portable into my cargo pocket, I was 16 becoming the last person in the CMU. It was dark, and I 17 heard somewhere, someone yell, You have shot one of my 18 brother, we will pay it back. 19 Q: Yes. And did you have any sense as 20 to what that was about at the time? 21 A: I did not. 22 Q: All right. And that's recorded in 23 your notes at page 62. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And then you return to


1 the TOC? 2 A: Yes, I -- I caught up with the rest 3 of the unit. It was -- 4 Q: Did you tell anyone else about this 5 comment? 6 A: I don't recall if I did or not. 7 Q: And once you're back at the TOC, you 8 indicated that you turned over the -- the radio or walkie 9 talkie to Inspector Carson. 10 What, if anything else, occurred at the 11 TOC? 12 A: I believe we got our assignment -- a 13 debrief to -- and we were -- took our equipment off. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: And then we -- I believe I returned 16 to a hotel room in Grand Bend. 17 Q: All right. And prior to that, did 18 you discover any injuries? 19 A: I -- on myself? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: I noticed that I had skinned up my 22 knee and it was bleeding. 23 Q: All right. Did you receive treatment 24 for that? 25 A: No, ma'am.


1 Q: Was it necessary? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you receive any treatments for 4 your ears that night? 5 A: For my ears? 6 Q: Yeah, your ears. 7 A: No. 8 Q: Any difficulty with your ears at this 9 point? 10 A: No. 11 Q: No ringing in them? 12 A: No, ma'am. 13 Q: All right. Did you eventually learn 14 that a First Nations person by the name of Anthony 15 O'Brien Dudley George had died as a result of the 16 occurrences that night? 17 A: I did learn that; I don't recall 18 when. 19 Q: You don't recall when? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Was it -- do you know whether it was 22 after the 7th or before? 23 A: I don't recall, I'm sorry. 24 Q: All right. Fair enough. You 25 indicated you went back to your hotel in Grand Bend from


1 the TOC? 2 A: I believe that's what we did. 3 Q: All right. Did you have any 4 discussions with any of your fellow officers with respect 5 to the occurrences of that night when you returned, or on 6 your way back to the hotel? 7 A: Yes, I -- I believe I told someone 8 about the firearm that I had encountered in the vehicle. 9 It was very traumatic to me and it was affecting me so I 10 had to talk to somebody about it. 11 Q: Who did you talk to about that? 12 A: The other members of our Mount Forest 13 Number 6 District team? 14 Q: Who? 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: Did you tell your partner? 17 A: I don't recall. 18 Q: Wouldn't that be logical? 19 A: He's not norm -- he's not normally my 20 partner. 21 Q: Okay. All right. But you're quite 22 sure you told somebody? Do you know how many people? 23 A: No, I don't. I don't recall. 24 Q: But you do recall telling someone? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Do you recall whether you told anyone 2 in Command about this, about your -- your -- what you 3 witnessed? 4 A: I don't recall. 5 Q: All right. Do you recall -- were you 6 assigned any duties on September the 7th, relative to 7 Ipperwash? 8 A: Yes. At -- we were assigned to the 9 security of Forest Detachment. 10 Q: All right. And if you would go 11 kindly to, I believe it's Tab 23. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: No, sorry. Hang on. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Sorry. I -- it's an earlier tab, 20 excuse me. I want to take you to your notes prior to 21 that. I believe actually they're at Tab 2 and this is 22 Exhibit P-1561. It has the excerpts of your notes from 23 September 8th to 10th, 21st, 25th to 30th, as I 24 recollect. 25 And this reflects your duties related to -


1 - to the Ipperwash matter? 2 A: I'm sorry, what were the dates again? 3 Q: I'm sorry. At Tab 2. 4 A: Tab 2, yes. August 1st? 5 Q: That's the first note, but if you 6 proceed in this Exhibit P-1561, you'll see that it has 7 subsequent entries. Not September the 6th or 5th, but 8 the subsequent entries. 9 A: Yes, it seems to be, yes, ma'am. 10 Q: And you were assigned to security 11 detail essentially for the Forest Detachment for those 12 time periods? 13 A: Yes, ma'am. 14 Q: And now if you go to Tab 23. These 15 are your notes for October 5th and 6th, 1995; is that 16 right? 17 A: Yes, ma'am. 18 Q: And make that the next exhibit, 19 please. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1578, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1578: Handwritten notebook entries 23 of Chris Cossitt, October 05- 24 06, 1995. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: And do you recall, was October the 3 6th the last Ipperwash related duty that you received? 4 A: Yes, ma'am. 5 Q: All right. I understand that you had 6 meetings with a Norm Peel on February 26th and April the 7 8th, 1997? 8 A: Yes, ma'am. 9 Q: And did you meet with him for 10 purposes of receiving legal advice? 11 A: For the preparation of -- I think it 12 was Ken Deane's trial. 13 Q: All right. And if we go to Tab 27 14 there are further -- two (2) further excerpts which 15 reflect the fact of those meetings, page 62 and 5 of 16 those -- 17 A: Yes, ma'am. 18 Q: I would like to make that the next 19 exhibit. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1579, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1579: Handwritten notebook entries 23 of Chris Cossitt, February 26 24 and April 08, 1997. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Now as you have testified, you gave 3 evidence at the criminal trial in the matter of R vs 4 Kenneth Deane, correct? 5 A: That's correct, ma'am. 6 Q: Were you apprised of Justin Fraser's 7 comments in relation to the -- to your testimony? 8 A: Yes, ma'am. 9 Q: If you go to Tab 31, please. This is 10 Inquiry Document Number 1005301: Reasons for Judgment, 11 Her Majesty the Queen against Kenneth Deane before His 12 Honour Judge H. Fraser on April 28th, 1997. 13 And if you would kindly look at page 168. 14 And have you seen this -- these reasons for judgment? 15 Were you made aware of them? 16 A: The first time I actually seen them 17 was through my counsel. 18 Q: All right. And at page 168 His 19 Honour makes the following statement: 20 "There were no Crown witnesses or 21 defence witnesses that saw any weapons 22 in the hands of the First Nations 23 people except for Sergeant Deane and 24 except for Constable Chris Cossitt. 25 At this point -- and at this point


1 perhaps I will comment on the testimony 2 of Constable Cossitt. The Crown called 3 his testimony amusing which is one (1) 4 word, I might choose others. Rather 5 than scrutinize Constable Cossitt's 6 testimony for any grains of truth that 7 might fall out, I have dismissed it 8 entirely as being clearly fabricated 9 and implausible." 10 Were you aware of that commentary, sir? 11 A: I was aware that -- the substance of 12 it, yes. 13 Q: I'd like to make this the next 14 exhibit, please? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1580, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1580: Document Number 1005301. 18 Judge H. Fraser's Reasons for 19 Judgment, April 28, 1997 at 20 Sarnia, Ontario. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: As a result of Justice Fraser's 24 comments did you become the subject of a Professional 25 Standards matter?


1 A: Yes, ma'am. 2 Q: Would you kindly go to Tab 32? This 3 is Exhibit P-1053, Complaint Intake Form received 4 November 18, 1997. And there's an attached letter dated 5 October 20, 1997 outlining the results of an 6 investigation. 7 Were you aware of the substance of this -- 8 this investigation? 9 A: I was aware there was an 10 investigation going on, yes. 11 Q: All right. And are you aware as to 12 what the -- first of all, were you apprised of this 13 complaint at the time it was made? 14 A: I've never seen this form until my 15 counsel showed it to me about a week ago. 16 Q: Were you ever interviewed in relation 17 to the subject matter of this complaint by anyone from 18 Professional Standards? 19 A: No, ma'am. 20 Q: Were you advised of the outcome of 21 this matter at the time, in other words, back in 1997? 22 A: I don't recall when I was apprised of 23 it -- of its outcome. I -- I don't recall when it was. 24 Q: Were you aware that the -- the 25 outcome -- well, let me ask -- let me put it this way.


1 Did -- were you ever the subject of -- of 2 a hearing? Did you participate in a hearing? 3 A: Did I participate in a hearing? No. 4 Q: Did you receive any sanctions? 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, 6 I'm sorry, and it may be me, that I misunderstood his 7 evidence. I thought he testified that he wasn't aware of 8 the complaint. So if he's not aware of the complaint 9 I'm -- I'm... 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Am I wrong or...? 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's just -- 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No, no, that's 14 fair. I just wanted to make sure that that was... 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, he's un -- but 16 he's uncertain with respect to when he was apprised of 17 the outcome, so he wasn't apprised of the complaint but 18 he was apprised of the investigation. I'm just trying to 19 close off the area. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think -- 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: Did you receive any... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: All right. All right. Just for 2 greater clarification, you didn't see the physical 3 complaint? 4 A: No, I did not. 5 Q: All right. At any time were you 6 aware that there was -- while -- while the investigation 7 was ongoing, were you aware of it? 8 A: I was aware there was something going 9 on. 10 Q: All right. As a result of, but you 11 were never interviewed? 12 A: No, I wasn't. 13 Q: All right. You were never asked for 14 a response to the complaint? 15 A: No, I was not. 16 Q: Did you receive any form of sanction 17 as a result of this complaint? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Thank you. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, we have heard some evidence at 24 this Inquiry that there was certain items that were 25 produced, variously described as memorabilia or T-shirts,


1 mugs -- or mugs. 2 Were you aware of the production or 3 existence of any memorabilia, be they mugs or T-shirts or 4 any other objects which were made in the aftermath of 5 Ipperwash? 6 A: I heard there was some controversy 7 regarding them, that there was some. I did not purchase 8 any. 9 Q: Did you see any objects, any such 10 objects? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Were you aware of the -- the de -- 13 the logos on any of the T-shirts or mugs or any other 14 objects? 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Did you ever see any object described 21 as a beer can with a hole in it and sand and two (2) 22 feathers sticking in it and -- sticking out of it and OPP 23 police tape, or anything like that? 24 A: No, ma'am, I did not. 25 Q: Were you aware of any object which


1 has been described as a bull's eye and arrow object being 2 applied to the side of a cruiser, police cruiser? 3 A: No, ma'am. 4 Q: Or any photo of it? 5 A: No, ma'am. 6 Q: All right. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: At any time during the course of the 11 Ipperwash operation, did you work with either Officer 12 Whitehead or Officer Dyke? 13 A: I don't know those people, no. 14 Q: All right. Did you participate in 15 any discipline investigations or Professional Standards 16 investigations with respect to any matters arising out of 17 Ipperwash, aside from the -- the complaint that we've 18 just reviewed, arising out of the judgment? 19 A: No, ma'am. 20 Q: All right. Commissioner, that 21 concludes my examination in-chief, and perhaps we could 22 canvass the cross-examination and commence it as 23 appropriate. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Who 25 intends to cross-examine this Witness?


1 Yes, Mr. Rosenthal, how long might you be? 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: About an hour and a 3 half, sir. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Hour and a half for Mr. 5 Rosenthal. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 7 Scullion...? 8 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'll reserve an 9 hour. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: An hour for Mr. 11 Scullion. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 13 Johnson...? 14 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I'll reserve forty- 15 five (45) minutes, possibly less. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Forty-five (45) minutes 17 for Ms. Johnson. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 19 Falconer...? 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Two (2) hours. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Two (2) hours for Mr. 22 Falconer. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 24 going to ask you to get together on this, and I'm going 25 to hope that on this we don't have any overlap and any


1 duplication of areas. 2 This is one witness where I'm hoping that 3 we can achieve that. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Hmm hmm. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you were 6 to take two (2) hours, that would be four and a half (4 7 1/2), that would be a whole day, and I think that's 8 excessive. And I'm hoping that you gentleman, and lady, 9 can discuss the areas that you wish to cover and you can 10 reach some agreement. 11 I would like to finish the cross- 12 examination of this Witness this afternoon, by the end of 13 the day, if that's possible. I'd like you to make that 14 effort, if you could. 15 We've managed to do the examination-in- 16 chief in less than half a day and I would think it would 17 be possible if you have that discussion. 18 Do you think I -- would you like to take a 19 short recess now to see if that can occur, or should we 20 just start? 21 Because I've noted on many occasions the 22 estimates have been higher than the reality and it hasn't 23 been necessary to sort of confirm to any time line in 24 advance. 25 And I'm happy to continue that if that's a


1 likely outcome. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 3 may I respectfully suggest that, as you've indicated -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- we have -- 6 you've seen that we've been trying to be expeditious and 7 we've -- we've narrowed our examination. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But it's very 10 difficult to plan ahead of time. We don't know what 11 answers will be given and so on. 12 So we've given you our best estimates now. 13 May we just work with that, with the goal, obviously we 14 all will try to be as expeditious as possible. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm happy to 16 do that if -- I just assumed that when we reached some of 17 these witnesses, that there would be some consultation 18 among the parties who were representing Aboriginal 19 parties, and that there would be some agreement that 20 everybody wouldn't cross-examine every witness on every 21 issue, that's all -- 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, we -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And if there 24 hasn't -- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- we've been --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- been any, 2 and the estimates are based on that, then they might be 3 excessive. If there's been some discussion, then there's 4 hope that we might finish it in half a day. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: There has been some 6 discussion -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- Mr. 9 Commissioner. It's -- example, Aboriginal Legal Services 10 is the last in line. 11 While we've had consultation, there are 12 certain issues that we may have to canvass that aren't 13 going to be canvassed by others and that's why the time 14 is reserved the way it is. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: There has been 17 consultation. Hopefully, if it's not necessary -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: There's no 20 intention of -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 22 understand that. It's just that sometimes when Counsel 23 say they reserve a block of time, there's a generous 24 estimate made because the Counsel think that if they're 25 going to use the time, it's going to be difficult for


1 them. 2 And that's not what my intention is. My 3 intention is to have counsel make a realistic, reasonable 4 estimate of how long they expect to be, rather than 5 reserve a block of time, and so on. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I may be the wrong 7 person responding to this. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 9 not addressing -- 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: In view of the fact 11 that I don't think -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- anybody 13 in particular. Perhaps you were -- 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I don't think I've 15 been under -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I'm not 17 addressing this to anybody in particular. I'm just 18 saying that it's helpful for us to plan and to know where 19 we're going and to have the next witness available and 20 all of our lives and so on. 21 If the estimates are realistic as 22 possible, that's really all I'm saying, and that I 23 understand that sometimes answers to questions are 24 unexpected and things take longer or shorter. 25 But in this particular case, I would like


1 to try to finish this Witness in the balance of the day, 2 which would seem to me to be sufficient time given how 3 long he was in his chief -- his examination-in-chief. 4 So it's now twenty to 12:00. We have a 5 good chunk of the day left, let's see if we can do it. 6 We'll start with Mr. Rosenthal. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Rosenthal, thank 8 you. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. Mr. 10 Commissioner, I have to move my computer, if I may. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We still 16 have about ten (10) or twelve (12) more police witnesses 17 to go after this one. So I want to try to keep moving 18 them along. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: Now, Officer, as you've heard we're 24 going to try and be as expeditious as possible. I'll be 25 running through things a little bit quicker than I might


1 if we felt we had a more leisurely pace available. 2 My name is Peter Rosenthal, I'm counsel to 3 some of the Stoney Point people under the name Aazhoodena 4 and George Family Group. 5 A: Hello. 6 Q: Now sir, with respect to -- Ms. Vella 7 asked you about your use of the phrase, calling it 'an 8 uprising' as you went down there. And you told us that 9 you didn't mean anything derogatory by that. 10 But I gather you understood that there had 11 been some kind of an uprising, did you, that was your 12 view? 13 A: There was a problem. There was 14 something going on, yes. 15 Q: But an uprising is something in the 16 nature of a rebellion or a revolution or...? Or do you 17 mean -- what do you mean when you wrote 'an uprising', 18 sir? 19 A: That there was some escalation of 20 violence. 21 Q: Well we -- we now know that what 22 happened that night was one person threw a rock into the 23 car of another person. 24 A: I'm sorry? 25 Q: One person threw a rock at the car of


1 another person. That's what had happened earlier that 2 evening. Okay? We now know that. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: Were you aware of that, sir? 5 A: No. 6 Q: You wouldn't call that an uprising 7 would you? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Now did you have some concern, which 10 we've heard some other officers in the CMU had concern, 11 about being marched down that road at night in those 12 circumstances? 13 A: I was nervous, yes. 14 Q: But did you -- afterwards and 15 thinking about this, have some concern? We've had, for 16 example, Officer Bittner had written a letter indicating 17 a concern about why they were marched down the road that 18 night. 19 Were you aware of that concern being 20 expressed by some officers? 21 A: I wasn't aware that Constable Bittner 22 wrote a letter, no. I wasn't aware of that. 23 Q: You weren't aware of any such -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. Thank you. Why don't we move


1 then to what actually happened. There was one person -- 2 one (1) First Nations person that was knocked down in the 3 course of this event that you observed, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you now know that his name was 6 Cecil Bernard George, right? 7 A: I'm not certain if that was the 8 person -- if you're referring to the person that I had 9 contact with? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: I'm not certain who it was. 12 Q: Well there was only one (1) person 13 that you were aware of being knocked down in the evening; 14 is that correct? 15 A: I knocked someone down. 16 Q: There was only one (1) person that 17 you were aware of being knocked down throughout the 18 evening. Is that not correct, sir? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Yes. And you testified at a trial of 21 Cecil Bernard George; did you not, sir? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you were aware that that was the 24 person who'd been knocked down, weren't you? When you 25 testified you were aware of that, weren't you?


1 A: It could be, yes. 2 Q: It was. 3 A: It -- 4 Q: Were you not aware, sir? 5 A: It might be, yes, sir. I didn't keep 6 continuity of the person behind me, so I'm not certain if 7 it was the same person that I had contact with or whether 8 it was somebody else. I didn't sit and watch that person 9 continuously. 10 Q: You -- you saw one (1) person down, 11 right, the whole evening, right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you understood, when you were at 14 Cecil Bernard George's trial, that he was the person who 15 had been down, right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you put those two (2) together 18 and you realized that the person who was down on the 19 ground, that you saw, was Cecil Bernard George, right? 20 A: It could be, yes. 21 Q: Could be or it was, sir? 22 A: I'm not certain, sir. 23 Q: I see. Now, you told us you were 24 running towards him and you knocked him down with your 25 shield; is that right?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that you remember for sure, 3 right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You don't need any notes to remember 6 that? You know that absolutely for sure, right? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Now, you did testify at the trial of 9 Mr. Cecil Bernard George, right? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: If you turn, please, to Tab 26? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I apologize, Mr. 16 Commissioner, I -- I just want to address My Friend for 17 one (1) second. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. By 19 all means. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: My exchange is 21 between My Friend and I. Sometimes I mess them up by 22 being too close to the mic, so could I stand back here 23 for a moment? Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Falconer has 4 raised a point independent of my examination at this 5 point. He's raised a point about evidence that 6 apparently may be called by Mr. Roland with respect to 7 this Witness. And it appears that there may be some new 8 evidence brought in by Mr. Roland. 9 And we have the -- what might be called 10 the Kevin Simon situation, you may recall, about if 11 counsel for a witness is going to bring in new evidence 12 then that should be done up front so other people can be 13 cross -- can cross-examine on it. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Now he may not be, 15 we don't know. We've received a document notice. We've 16 received a document notice that is the picture of a 17 firearm and we got that by way of document notice. 18 Now, if there's no intention to elicit new 19 evidence, then there's no problem, we can continue and 20 there's no problem. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then why 22 don't you speak to him? Why don't you speak to Mr. 23 Roland, Mr. Falconer? 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 25 That's fair, but we just got it so --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I'm trying to 3 deal with it before -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You mean e- 5 mails are being exchanged as we speak? 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It was just brought 7 to my attention, that's correct. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 9 That's fine. Why don't you speak to Mr. Roland and see, 10 because I do think it's not fair if new evidence is 11 brought out at that stage. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I understand Mr. 13 Roland does not intend to use the item that was sent. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 So if -- 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And therefore it's 17 not an issue. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 19 do have an understanding that if new evidence is going to 20 be introduced at the end, it ought to be led at the front 21 so -- 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it can be 24 cross-examined on. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes.


1 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I apologize to Mr. 2 Rosenthal. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 Carry on, Mr. Rosenthal. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Okay. Thank you. 6 That doesn't count as my time, Mr. Commissioner. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 9 Q: Now, sir, I think we had agreed that 10 the one (1) person, that you were aware of at least, 11 being knocked down on that evening, one (1) First Nations 12 person, was Cecil Bernard George, right. And I was then 13 going to -- and you told us that today how you were the 14 person who knocked him down with your shield, right? 15 A: I knocked a Native person down, yes. 16 Q: Now, I should like then to turn to 17 your evidence at the trial of Regina and Cecil Bernard 18 George at Tab 26 of your document brief, it's Exhibit P- 19 1573. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, I should like to read from what 24 is transcribed as your testimony at that trial, sir, and 25 see if you gave that testimony, beginning at page 230.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: At line 22. Well perhaps I'll begin 4 at line 21. 5 "When these people came out of the 6 Park, what happened when they came out? 7 The staff sergeant ordered a full 8 punchout of the unit and we proceeded 9 at a faster pace and there was one (1) 10 Native I seen directly in front. I'm 11 not sure which officer had contact with 12 him, but it was just directly in front 13 of me and had full contact. The Native 14 went down and -- 15 Q: Do you know how that came about? 16 No, I don't." 17 Now, sir, did you testify to that effect, 18 under Oath, at the trial of Cecil Bernard George? 19 A: Yes, sir. I had -- I'm not sure how 20 that Native person ended up in front of me, 'cause when I 21 initially started out in the punchout in the con -- for 22 the -- initially the whole team punchout, there was 23 nobody in front of me, and then a person ended up in 24 front of me. 25 Q: Now, sir, did you tell the Court


1 then: 2 "I'm not sure which officer had contact 3 with him?" 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: But you knew you were the officer who 6 had contact with him, right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: So you misinformed the Court when you 9 said you weren't sure which officer had contact with him. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: You lied under Oath, sir. 14 A: No, I didn't, sir. I was telling the 15 truth, as best I could recall. 16 Q: You knew, you told us, sir, that you 17 knew all along, you told me ten (10) minutes ago, that 18 you knew all along that you were the officer who knocked 19 him down, right? 20 A: I knocked a Native person down, yes, 21 sir. 22 Q: But you told the Court that you 23 weren't sure which officer had contact with him. 24 A: I bel -- I had contact with a Native 25 person and I wasn't -- I'm not certain if that was the


1 person that was arrested. 2 Q: I put it to you, sir, that at the 3 time of this trial you knew that there was an 4 investigation as to who had caused the injuries to Cecil 5 Bernard George, did you not? 6 A: Yes, I didn't. 7 Q: And you didn't want to make yourself 8 culpable for causing those injuries, is why you denied 9 being the person who knocked him down, I put it to you, 10 sir? 11 A: No, sir. I wasn't avoiding anything. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And if we continue that exchange. 16 You were asked more questions in-chief, on page 231. 17 Again, at line 10: 18 "Do you know what officer he had 19 contact with? 20 A: No, I don't." 21 Right? You see that, sir? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And as you said that, you knew that 24 you were the officer he had contact with, right? 25 A: I knew I had contact with someone.


1 Q: And what were you thinking, sir, as 2 you said, "No, I don't" to that question on that 3 occasion? 4 A: I don't recall what I was thinking at 5 this time, sir. 6 Q: And then continuing: 7 "How close to the person, the Native 8 who went down, were you? 9 A: When he had contact with this 10 officer? 11 Q: He had contact with somebody. 12 When the Native had contact with the 13 officer, how far were you away? 14 A: I was approximately 8 to 10 metres 15 beyond the people who were in front of 16 me, and then as the Native went down, 17 I gained on them." 18 So you indicated you were way back as he 19 went down, right? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: The person that I had contact with, 24 sir, was in front of me. I don't know how he got in 25 front of me. I'm not recalling whether or not someone


1 else had contact with him prior to me having contact. I 2 don't know. I can't recall that. 3 Q: Sir, your answer: 4 "I was approximately 8 to 10 metres 5 behind the people that were just in 6 front of me and then as the Native went 7 down, I gained on them. And as I was 8 just going by the Native that was on 9 the ground, his left foot kicked up 10 towards me and I struck at the left leg 11 as it came out at me with my baton." 12 Did you give that evidence under Oath, 13 sir? 14 A: I give that evidence as kicked up at 15 me, yes, sir. 16 Q: You told us you were aware of an 17 investigation as to whether or not you had committed 18 perjury at the Ken Deane trial? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Were you aware, was there any 21 investigation of whether or not you committed perjury at 22 the Cecil Bernard George trial? 23 A: I'm not aware of anything. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: And just to clarify, sir, on page 234 2 of this transcript: 3 "At the time of this person being down 4 on the ground, you hit it with your 5 baton and that timeframe and after you 6 were in the position of protection, 7 what observation did you make of other 8 Native people on the ground if any? 9 A: I only seen one (1) Native on the 10 ground in around our cordon formation 11 when we went forward and that Native 12 was removed by the arrest teams. 13 Q: Was that the person that we've 14 been talking about? The person who you 15 saw and tried to hit with your baton? 16 A: Yes. There was only one (1) 17 person I ever seen down, sir." 18 You gave those answers to those questions, 19 did you not, sir? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: So you knew at the time there was one 22 (1) person on the ground. You had hit him with your 23 baton. But also you knew at the time but did not 24 disclose to the court that you had knocked him down with 25 your shield.


1 Is that not fair, sir? 2 A: I put a person down on his back as I 3 proceeded forwarded in the punchout. I put that person 4 down. I then stood up. I didn't watch the person 5 continuously to see -- to ensure. 6 There was other officers coming up to deal 7 with that person. I didn't stand there and make sure 8 that that person didn't get away, or that he continued to 9 be arrested, or if that person was continuously 10 maintained and went back there. 11 I didn't stand there and watch that. I -- 12 my attention was drawn to the front because I was 13 receiving debris at that point. 14 Q: Now, sir, this person was trying to 15 run back into the Park when you caught up with him, isn't 16 that right? 17 A: I -- I -- 18 Q: That was your understanding. 19 A: He was moving back and stopped. 20 Q: Yes. But your understanding was that 21 he was trying to get back to the Park and then the 22 officers were upon him so he realized he couldn't escape 23 and then he turned to face you, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Right?


1 A: He -- he stopped. 2 Q: Yes. And then you ran into him with 3 your shield? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And where did you hit him with your 6 shield, sir? 7 A: It would be in the -- he was on a 8 forward swinging motion with a two by four (2x4) on a 9 forward motion and it would be in the arms as he came 10 forward. And arms and kind of his shoulder. 11 Q: And then did he immediately fall down 12 upon you hitting him? 13 A: Yeah, we both fell. 14 Q: You both fell? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Did you land on top of him? 17 A: No, I continued forward and he went 18 to my left. 19 Q: And he was to your left. And you 20 were more forward towards the fence? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: In the direction you'd been going? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the direction you intended to 25 keep going?


1 A: On the punchout there's an end that 2 we would have. I wouldn't have reached the fence, no. 3 But I would have stopped. 4 Q: But that -- the end would have been 5 further in the direction towards the fence. You intended 6 to keep going in that direction and you did after your 7 encounter with Cecil Bernard George, right? 8 A: I fell forward, yes. 9 Q: You fell forward and then after you 10 got up you continued in the forward direction, right? 11 A: No, sir. After I got back up I 12 stopped, and my partner had gone a little bit behi -- 13 ahead of me, so we evened up and we started trying to 14 deflect debris that was being thrown. 15 Q: I see. But in between that, you hit 16 Cecil Bernard George on the leg with your baton, right? 17 A: I'm not certain if I made contact 18 with him or not. I was falling forward and his kick came 19 out and I tried to block the kick. 20 I'm not trying to mislead you, sir, I'm 21 just not sure if I made contact. 22 Q: Yes, you're not a hundred percent 23 sure you made contact you told us, right? 24 A: No. No with the -- when I tried to 25 block the kick.


1 Q: But I'm not interested now, for the 2 moment, in whether you made contact or not. I'm 3 interested in when you made the swing, sir. Are you 4 telling us that you knocked him down, fell with him with 5 your shield and then hit him as you were falling or what? 6 A: As a contact happened, he went -- 7 fell to my left; it was kind of a -- a glancing on an 8 angle. It wasn't a -- a direct contact. 9 He fell to my left. I went to the right 10 and the momentum -- like I was going -- moving forward 11 and I fell in the direction that I was moving and he fell 12 to my left. 13 Q: And how far away from you did he 14 fall? 15 A: I would say I was about 6 feet in 16 front of him when I ended up on the ground. 17 Q: Okay. He ended up 6 feet from you on 18 the ground? 19 A: Approximately. 20 Q: And then you look back and you then 21 saw other officers approaching him? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Is that your evidence, sir? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did they approach him with batons


1 out? 2 A: I think -- everybody in the CMU had 3 batons out, sir. 4 Q: Yes. And did you see them start to 5 strike him with their batons then sir? 6 A: No, sir. 7 Q: You didn't see them -- you didn't see 8 any officers strike him with their batons at all? 9 A: No, sir. I had got back up. I -- I 10 was just down for a minute, regained my -- stood back up 11 and regained myself. 12 Q: Stood back up and then continued 13 towards the fence? 14 A: No. No. 15 Q: And then what did you do? 16 A: No, I -- I stood ground because I was 17 starting to block debris, sir. 18 Q: I see. You stood to block debris? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then you hit him on the leg? 21 A: No, sir. 22 Q: Or tried to? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: When was that? 25 A: That was as I was -- after --


1 simultaneously as I was falling forward and he was 2 falling his foot came up and was coming towards me in a 3 kicking motion and I swung. 4 Q: Oh, I see. So you hit his leg as it 5 came up before he fell, is that your evidence now? 6 A: I'm sorry? 7 Q: Your evidence -- 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Rosenthal isn't 9 putting the evidence as this Witness is giving it. He 10 said he doesn't know whether he hit. He struck at the 11 leg as he was falling. He said it about four (4) times. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: And Mr. Rosenthal keeps 14 going over it. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, Mr. 16 Commissioner, the transcript will be very clear on this. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I wish to 19 pursue this, Mr. Commissioner. I have a right to on 20 cross-examination. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, are 22 you almost finished with this point because this point -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm almost finished 24 with this point, yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right.


1 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But I -- but it -- 2 it -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have 4 asked this question. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: Is it your evidence, sir, as you 8 swung at his leg, is it your evidence that he was in the 9 process of falling or that he had already hit the ground? 10 A: Process of falling. 11 Q: In the process of falling. I see. 12 A: We both were. 13 Q: And -- I see. You were both in the 14 process of falling is when you struck at his leg, right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And so it's not the case that he was 17 lying on the ground kicking at you when you struck at his 18 leg? 19 A: No. 20 Q: I see. And then -- so you -- you 21 were both falling and you strike at his leg and then what 22 do you say you do after that? 23 A: I just look over my right shoulder 24 and I see some other officers coming forward. And I 25 stood up and got back up onto my feet.


1 Q: Yes? 2 A: And then at that point we -- I was 3 initiating -- I was taking a lot of debris being thrown 4 at us and I stood up to block the debris. 5 Q: Now, sir, I have difficulty 6 understanding how you could have struck at his leg in the 7 circumstances you describe when you say he ended up 6 8 feet from you after you both were on the ground. 9 You're falling together, you strike at his 10 leg and then he ends up 6 feet from you? 11 A: Approximately 6 feet. I skidded 12 forward, yes, sir. 13 Q: I see. Thank you. Now, if you like, 14 Mr. Commissioner, to look at Exhibit P-1535 for which I 15 have copies for you and the Witness, with My Friend's 16 assistance. Thank you. For your counsel and for the 17 Witness' counsel. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now, sir, this is a letter as you'll 22 see from Peter Tinsley who at the time was the Director 23 of the Special Investigations Unit directed to, or sent 24 to Commissioner Gwen Boniface dated February 10, 1999, 25 Exhibit P-1535.


1 Now, sir, my first question is: Have you 2 ever seen this letter before? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: You'll note in the second paragraph 5 it says: 6 "Six (6) of your officers were 7 designated as subject officers for the 8 purpose of this investigation. They 9 were Constables..." 10 And several constables are listed 11 including yourself? 12 A: I see my name, sir. 13 Q: Now, another constable who was listed 14 is Constable Bittner, and he told us that he attended a 15 meeting with Commissioner Boniface and the other listed 16 officers some time after this letter was received. 17 Did you -- do you recall attending that 18 meeting, sir? 19 A: Specifically dealing with this 20 letter, I don't recall that. I recall meetings with 21 Commissioner Boniface and our command staff, but I don't 22 recall specifically what the meetings would be about. 23 Q: Yes, but you -- you -- there was a 24 meeting with Commissioner Boniface, right, of those six 25 (6) officers with respect to the investigation of what


1 had happened to Cecil Bernard George, right? 2 A: There was a meeting. I don't recall 3 exactly which one it was. 4 Q: But you attended such a meeting? 5 A: I attended a meeting. 6 Q: And that would have been some time in 7 early 1999, would it? 8 A: I don't recall when it would have 9 been. 10 Q: And at that meeting you were informed 11 by Commissioner Boniface that the Special Investigation 12 Unit had decided not to lay any charges with respect to 13 the beating of Cecil Bernard George, right? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Yes. I know there was no charges 18 laid. 19 Q: And you recall that Commissioner 20 Boniface informed you and your fellow subject officers of 21 that fact, at some meeting; isn't that correct? 22 A: I don't recall who -- who informed 23 me. I -- I -- 24 Q: I see. 25 A: -- don't recall it, sir.


1 Q: Now, what I'm more interested in, 2 however, is whether or not you were ever informed by 3 Commissioner Boniface, or anyone else, of what appeared 4 to be the concerns of Mr. Tinsley, that are expressed on 5 the second page of this document, beginning at the top of 6 the second page. Mr Tinsley writing: 7 "I believe it to be necessary and only 8 fair to inform you that in reaching the 9 above noted decision, I was struck, at 10 a review of all the available evidence, 11 by the discontinuity of the statements 12 of the OPP officers who were 13 interviewed as to the level of force 14 applied to Mr. George and the injuries 15 that he was clinically observed to have 16 suffered. 17 I concluded that the level of force 18 actually applied against Cecil Bernard 19 George by various OPP officers during 20 the confrontation and which caused his 21 injuries, bore little relation to the 22 picture that emerged from the officers' 23 account of the level of force used 24 against Ms. George -- Mr. George." 25 Were you ever informed of words to that


1 effect, that the Special Investigations Unit was 2 concerned about the information that was provided by OPP 3 officers in the course of their investigation? 4 A: No, sir. 5 Q: Not until this moment -- 6 A: Not until this moment. 7 Q: -- were you informed of that? Thank 8 you. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Now, if you could please turn to Tab 13 16, which is your notes, and also now Exhibit P-1570, and 14 look at page 51, please. 15 At page 51 there is an entry next to 16 17:00, it appears to be, and I just can't read that 17 entry. I'd appreciate you reading the several lines that 18 follow the notation 17:00. 19 A: The vehicles at Port Frank -- Port 20 Franks beach, is that what you're referring to? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: "Residents called in regarding a dump 23 truck and a white..." 24 Q: Sorry, residents called in and then 25 what?


1 A: "Residents called in a dump truck and 2 a Camaro, a white Camaro, and bat car 3 at beach. Other units has seen vehicle 4 gone. Stood by area." 5 Q: So what did that refer to, residents 6 calling in? 7 A: From the Port -- Port Franks side, 8 there's cottages there that are not on the Army Camp 9 area, and some of -- the dump truck and with the -- came 10 across on the Army Camp area and they phoned in 11 concerned. 12 Q: Now, you told us that you made your 13 notes for September 6th all at one sitting; is that 14 correct? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 19 think that's what he said. 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 23 think that's what he said, Mr. Rosenthal. 24 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I believe that is


1 what he said to Ms. Vella -- 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: He said the opposite. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 4 think -- 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: He said the opposite. 6 He said he didn't make that in one sitting. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. He 8 said he'd made them sporadically, that -- 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, no, but then he 10 misunderstood the word 'sporadically' because he then ans 11 -- he said yes to "sporadically" but then he said, "all 12 at once" and by -- well -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: So it's -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I believe I was 17 listening carefully. I might have missed it, sir, but, 18 well, we can just ask the Witness. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 21 Q: Did you or did you not make your 22 notes more or less continuously for September 6th, at 23 some date on September 7th, some time on September 7th? 24 A: No, sir. I did not. I made -- 25 Q: I see.


1 A: -- notes periodically. 2 Q: Okay. So when did you make your 3 notes, sir? Tell me then the breaks that took place? 4 A: I don't recall the breaks. 5 Q: Did -- when you started making your 6 notes, sir, did you continue and finish your notes for 7 September 6th or did you stop and do something else? 8 A: From finish -- from start to finish 9 on September 6th? No, sir, I did not completely start 10 from A and go to B, no, sir. 11 I started with A, and did my routine 12 travelling, and then I completed the rest of it, 13 involving the incident, the event at the sandy parking 14 lot later. 15 Q: Yes. Yes, you stopped at about seven 16 o'clock on September 6th, right? 17 A: Yeah, 18:50, sir. 18 Q: But then the -- the notes after that 19 were all done continuously, were they? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No? Okay. So when did you make the 22 notes for the events of September 6th that took place 23 after 7:00 p.m. on that date, sir? 24 A: I don't recall when they were made 25 exactly.


1 Q: Don't recall when they were made? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Were they made by September 7? 4 A: I believe so, yes. On -- on 5 September 7th sometime. 6 Q: You believe they were sometime on 7 September 7? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And when you did make them, did you 10 sit down and write them continuously from beginning to 11 end, or did you stop in the middle and do something else? 12 A: I believe I stopped part way through 13 them and I was assigned duties at that point and I would 14 be moving around. 15 Q: I see. Okay. Well perhaps I missed 16 that, Mr. Commissioner, or perhaps the transcript will 17 reveal something else. But I'll go on. 18 Now if I understood you correctly, you 19 told Ms. Vella you used an ASP prior to this occasion; is 20 that correct, sir? 21 A: Yes. I was trained in it, prior to, 22 yes. 23 Q: You were trained to it prior to this 24 occasion? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Had you had one issued to you prior 2 to this occasion? 3 A: Yes, I had one. 4 Q: I'm sorry? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: So you owned an ASP prior to 9 September 6th, or you had use of an ASP prior to 10 September 6, 1995? 11 A: Yes, I was trained prior to, yes. 12 Q: So the training that you received on 13 that date was just an update for you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: When did you first get an ASP, sir? 16 A: It was just prior to -- I don't 17 recall exactly but it would be just prior -- it would be 18 the same year in '95, sometime prior to September. 19 Q: Sometime in '95? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: But before, say, September '95? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now you told us that as the Crowd 24 Management Unit approached the fence that night, Staff 25 Sergeant Lacroix was speaking to, or attempting to speak


1 to, or what, to the First Nations people? 2 A: I'm not sure who he was speaking to. 3 It could have been the contact squad because that's where 4 he was approximately at, it was by them. I'm not sure 5 who he was speaking to, sir. 6 Q: But you're sure he was speaking to 7 people? 8 A: I looked across and I could see -- it 9 looked like his mouth was moving up and down. 10 Q: You're confident that he was having 11 conversations with some of the people behind the fence; 12 is that right? 13 A: I don't know who he was speaking to, 14 sir. 15 Q: Well, which direction was he facing? 16 A: He was facing forward and he was 17 beside the contact -- or by the contact squad, that area. 18 Q: So he might have been speaking to the 19 contact squad? 20 A: I'm not sure, sir. He could have 21 been, yes. 22 Q: But not to the people on the other 23 side of the fence, necessarily? 24 A: I don't know, sir. I'm sorry, I 25 don't know who he was talking to.


1 Q: I seel. Well, sir, if you could 2 please turn to Tab 26, which again is your testimony at 3 the trial of Cecil Bernard George, and page 227 of what 4 is now Exhibit P-1573. 5 Approximately line 14: 6 A: And Staff Sergeant Lacroix 7 approached the fence and you would see 8 that he was having conversation with 9 people on the other side of the fence. 10 Q: How did you know that? 11 A: You could see him -- his mouth 12 moving..." 13 And so on. 14 Now did you testify at the trial of Cecil 15 Bernard George that he had conversation with people on 16 the other side of the fence, sir? 17 A: I assumed because he was looking 18 forward and I never heard anything or who the 19 conversation -- I have nothing to substantiate who he was 20 talking to for sure. 21 Q: Did you testify that you could see 22 that he was having conversation with people on the other 23 side of the fence, sir? 24 A: I could see he was having 25 conversation, yes, sir, I testified that way.


1 Q: And on the other side of the fence 2 with First Nations people, right? 3 A: Yes, that's right. 4 Q: I should tell you that Staff Sergeant 5 Lacroix did not describe any such conversation or 6 attempted conversation, sir. 7 Now, getting to the Molotov cocktail, 8 Molotov cocktails are quite a fierce weapon, right, they 9 took out tanks in the Second World War, right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: That would be the most powerful 12 weapon that anybody's discussed in connection with 13 Ipperwash, right? 14 A: I -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 16 know what other people have discussed. He doesn't know 17 what other people have discussed. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, well sorry, 19 you're right. That was not a very good question in any 20 event and I'll move on. Thank you. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: Now, you told us today that you were 24 going along and you kicked a bottle in the sand and you 25 looked down and you saw, oh, it's a bottle with some


1 frothy stuff in it and a burnt out wick, right? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: That was your evidence today, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, Ms. Vella took you to what you 6 described at the Ken Deane trial. That was entirely 7 different, right? 8 Would you agree it was entirely different? 9 A: I had made a conclusion that it had 10 to be -- at the Ken Deane trial was -- I thought I seen 11 it thrown lit but the aspect is I concluded that it, 12 because of the charred top and stuff like that it had to 13 be burning at some time. 14 Q: So, sir, is it -- is your evidence 15 today correct? Is it true that this bottle was a bottle 16 that you stumbled upon in the stand and it was not 17 burning at that time? 18 Is that your evidence, sir? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And then let's look then at Tab 28 P- 21 1536,(sic) your testimony at the Ken Deane trial, page 22 174 beginning at line 28: 23 "What happened then? 24 A: We were taking debris quite -- it 25 was quite heavy and actually a bottle,


1 a clear bottle with liquid in it and it 2 had a wick out of the end came and 3 landed about 2 feet in front of me and 4 extinguished itself as it hit in the 5 sand and it didn't break an I thought I 6 would anticipate in my opinion it was a 7 Molotov cocktail." 8 Now, sir, did you testify to that under 9 oath, sir? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: So then you told us -- you told them 12 it landed about 2 feet in front of you. You saw it 13 coming and it landed 2 feet in front of you. 14 That's what you said, right? 15 A: As I was standing there taking 16 debris, sir, I was moving forward and back to avoid 17 contact so it was 2 feet in front of me, yes. 18 Q: But you saw it land 2 feet in front 19 of you? 20 A: I seen something land 2 feet in front 21 of me, yes. 22 Q: Is that your evidence today, sir, 23 that you saw it land 2 feet in front of you? 24 A: It was in front of me, 2 feet. As I 25 moved forward I kicked it up.


1 Q: Or was it something that you stumbled 2 upon and didn't see land at all, sir, which was it? 3 A: I concluded it landed because it was 4 in front of me as I kicked it. 5 Q: Sir, you were aware at the Ken Deane 6 trial that the more weapons and the more aggression that 7 could be attributed to First Nations people the better 8 off Ken Deane would be in his defence. 9 Weren't you aware of that notion, sir? 10 A: No, sir, I wouldn't have... 11 Q: You -- you told us you met with -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 13 think the Witness was about to say something. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh, sorry. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 16 should finish. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I thought he had 18 concluded, I'm sorry. 19 THE WITNESS: I just said I -- I didn't 20 draw that conclusion from that and it never entered my 21 mind, sir. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 24 Q: I see. Now, you were interviewed by 25 Norm Peel, Ken Deane's lawyer, in anticipation of your


1 giving evidence in his defence, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did you tell Mr. Peel that you 4 had observed a Molotov cocktail? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And was he the first person that you 7 ever told about this then, sir? 8 A: I don't recall that. 9 Q: And about how much before your -- the 10 day of your testimony did you confer with Mr. Peel about 11 this? 12 A: I don't recall when I conferred with 13 him. I had I think it was two (2) meetings with him. 14 Q: And did he go through your evidence 15 in detail, take -- take a detailed statement from you in 16 preparation for trial? 17 A: I believe so. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Let's go to the shots from the bus 22 first. As I understood your evidence today, it was that 23 you can't say if the shots came from the bus; is that a 24 fair summary of your evidence or no? 25 A: Came from the area of the bus, is the


1 best I can say, sir. 2 Q: You can't say it came from the bus, 3 is that fair? 4 A: No, sir. 5 Q: Is that a fair summary, sir? 6 A: It came from the area of the bus. 7 Q: Are you agreeing with me that it's a 8 fair summary to say you can't say it came from the bus? 9 A: It came from the area of the bus. I 10 -- that's the best I can say. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: But you did go better than that, as 15 Ms. Vella pointed out to you, and said more definitively, 16 that it came from the bus, right, in other proceedings? 17 A: Because of the sounds I concluded 18 that it was above me and the only way it could have came, 19 'cause that's the only thing that would have the height 20 that would put it above my head, sir. 21 Q: Let's look at Tab 28, which is your 22 testimony at the Deane trial, Exhibit P-1576, pages 181 23 to 182. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: Beginning at about line 17. 2 "Q: How close did the bus come to you? 3 A: As it backed through I would say 4 within 5 to 6 feet of me. 5 Q: Describe what you saw prior to 6 that happening. 7 A: I heard some banging. What I had 8 done is, I went down on my right knee 9 and I tried to cover myself by keeping 10 my head down and crouched as much as I 11 could and using the colour of my 12 uniform, the dark colour, that it would 13 give me the best covering I could and I 14 heard banging. It sounded like 15 gunfire." 16 You gave that evidence at that time, sir? 17 A: I'm sorry, what page are you at, sir? 18 Q: Sorry, it's page 181. 19 A: Okay, I'm -- I got you now, thank 20 you. 21 Q: And what I had read was from line -- 22 I forget exactly where I started but about line 18 and I 23 ended up at line 27 or so: 24 "It sounded like gunfire." 25 A: Yes, sir. As I crouched down, I kind


1 of tucked my head in and looked over my left shoulder as 2 to keep monitoring where the bus was coming -- 3 Q: Yes. So you -- you said then you 4 heard some banging, right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I would put it to you that the 7 banging could have been, for example, backfiring from the 8 motor of the -- this old school bus, right? 9 A: I -- I believe it's gunfire sir. I 10 don't think it was backfiring from the bus. 11 Q: Yes, you believed -- you said it 12 sounded like gunfire at the time, but it could have been 13 backfiring in retrospect, isn't that fair? 14 A: I believe it was gunfire. 15 Q: I see. It couldn't have been 16 backfiring from the bus? 17 A: It didn't sound like it to me, sir. 18 Q: I see. Well, I would suggest to you, 19 sir, that banging is not the way a person would describe 20 gunfire. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm sorry. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: If My Friend has ever


1 read any comic books, they usually say "bang" when 2 there's a gunfire in the caption of comic books. 3 I mean I -- what -- to suggest that 4 banging is not -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not -- 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- a description of 7 gunfire is really not fair. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I -- 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 10 this counsel is not the Witness. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That might have 13 been an answer that the Witness might give. I am 14 properly cross-examining about the language that this 15 Witness used and I'm suggesting to him, as I've a right 16 to do, that to say "I heard banging" would not be a 17 normal way of describing gunfire. 18 He could answer in any way he wished to 19 and it's improper for the -- his Counsel to rise -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and give an 22 answer. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: His Counsel 24 is doing what he thinks he needs to do -- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, and --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and 2 you're doing what -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But he -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you think 5 you need -- 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- should be 7 prohibited, in my respectful submission -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well let's-- 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- Mr. Commissioner-- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's carry 11 on. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- from doing that. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, let's 14 carry on. I want to remind you, Mr. Rosenthal, as I have 15 in the past, it's not a criminal case. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I would 18 be grateful if you would move along. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But sir, you must 20 make findings of fact -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, I 22 realize but there's not a -- we're not working with a 23 criminal case where a reasonable doubt would result in an 24 acquittal of anyone. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, so --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You know, 2 there are slightly different -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- standards 5 in a Public Inquiry and I -- 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 8 understand that credibility's an issue but I think that 9 you can move along. Some of these areas are not worth 10 the amount of time that we're giving them, in my 11 judgment -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I'd ask 14 you to move along. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With great respect, 16 Mr. Commissioner, I should just like to -- so you 17 understand where I'm coming from, if I may, I should just 18 like to explain. 19 The fact that it's not a criminal trial 20 and it's not beyond a reasonable doubt makes it more 21 important, rather than less, for me to show you that this 22 Witness is not credible. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Because this 25 Witness is alleging that a gun came out of the car.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 2 understand. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And so on. And so 4 it's very, very significant in my respectful submission. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 6 that credibility is an issue and it's an important issue 7 in this Inquiry as in a trial. But I just remind you 8 that the procedure in an Inquiry is different than in a 9 trial. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sir -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And a trial 12 if you can show a reasonable doubt, you have a prospect 13 of getting an acquittal. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not 16 what we're dealing with here. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That's right. I 18 must show much more. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well you 20 don't need to deal with it in as much detail as you are. 21 Let's carry on. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 24 Q: Now, sir, I put it to you that if you 25 were describing to somebody gunshots, you wouldn't say I


1 heard some banging. You'd say I heard shots. Banging 2 suggests like a door banging or other kind of banging. 3 A: No, sir. I -- I would use the term 4 banging. I could use the term gunshots. I may use them 5 both. 6 Q: You -- you would use the word banging 7 to describe gunshots from time to time? 8 A: From time to time, sir. 9 Q: I see. And you're absolutely certain 10 it couldn't have been backfiring from the bus or any 11 other sound? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's already 13 said that. He's already said that. He said that he 14 didn't think it was backfiring. He thought it was 15 gunfire. 16 No matter how many times you're going to 17 ask him, I don't think you're going to get a different 18 answer. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 21 Q: This bus made a lot of noise rattling 22 and shaking as it clambered over that -- that territory 23 that day, didn't it, sir? 24 A: It was loud, yes. 25 Q: Loud banging. All sorts of parts of


1 that bus, it was an old bus, right? 2 A: It was making loud noises, yes. 3 Q: Yes. Now late in the evening of 4 September 6 or early September 7, you went back to the 5 hotel and you discussed these events with a number of 6 officers. 7 Is that correct? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And in particular you told them about 10 the allegation that there was a gun from the car, right? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: You didn't mention to them anything 13 about gunfire from the bus, right? 14 A: I don't recall what I mentioned. If 15 I mentioned more than that I don't recall, I'm sorry. 16 Q: Certainly didn't mention a Molotov 17 cocktail with anybody, right? 18 A: I don't recall if I did. 19 Q: Now you told us as I understand it, 20 sir, that you saw about 4 to 5 inches of a barrel 21 sticking out of the car, is that correct? 22 A: Approximately, yes, sir. 23 Q: And you were right next to it when 24 that happened? 25 A: I was forward of it, yes.


1 Q: One (1) question Ms. Vella asked you 2 was why you didn't strike that barrel with your ASP and I 3 would put it to you, sir, if you were poised to strike 4 the driver and a barrel came out right next to you, you 5 would strike that barrel without even thinking about it, 6 automatically. 7 Isn't that fair, sir? 8 A: No, sir. My -- my thought was to get 9 away. Make distance. 10 Q: But you have an ASP in your right 11 hand and a barrel's pointing at you and you're not going 12 to strike it? 13 A: I was there, sir, and I made the 14 decision to run. 15 Q: I see. Now your evidence today as I 16 understand it is that you didn't see anything beyond the 17 barrel sticking out. Is that correct? 18 You didn't see anything into the car? 19 A: No. No, I just seen 4 inches, 5 20 inches of a barrel. 21 Q: Didn't say how the barrel got to be 22 there from in the car, didn't see the driver pick it up 23 or anything like that? 24 A: No, sir, I didn't see anything like 25 that.


1 Q: And then you say the muzzle flash was 2 outside the car? 3 A: It was right at the -- where the 4 window comes out of the -- the door, where the glass 5 portion comes out of the door. It was started around 6 there at that -- I'll call it the top of the window or 7 the bottom of the window. 8 That's where it started out. I'm not sure 9 if I'm explaining it right. 10 Q: Your -- your evidence is that the 11 barrel is sticking out 4 to 5 inches, right? From the 12 window, right? 13 A: From -- yeah, from the bottom of the 14 window. The window was down. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And then the muzzle flash came out 18 another 12 to 15 inches I think you said from that, is 19 that correct? 20 A: Approximately, yes. 21 Q: And the muzzle flash was not from 22 inside the car? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: And the -- and you didn't see 25 anything more than just a barrel so you weren't sure what


1 kind of gun it was, is that fair? 2 A: No, sir, I seen a barrel that was 3 about three-quarters of an inch barrel that came out. It 4 was all consistent with a shotgun, sir. 5 Q: I see. It wasn't a sawed-off 6 shotgun, it was the end of a regular shotgun barrel? 7 A: I seen a barrel. 8 Q: Did it look like -- 9 A: I don't know if was a sawed-off 10 shotgun or whether it was a regular barrel. I don't 11 know, sir. 12 Q: You could tell the difference between 13 a sawed-off shotgun and a regular barrel could you not, 14 sir? 15 A: If I seen the whole weapon I might be 16 able to, sir. 17 Q: I see. So you don't know if was 18 sawed off or not? 19 A: No, I don't, sir. 20 Q: I see. Now, you mentioned this to a 21 number of officers you told us and we have some reports 22 as to what you told them. 23 If you could please turn to Tab 33, Tab 33 24 is a -- an excerpt I believe from a statement of Ronald 25 Piers and I believe that other portions of this statement


1 have been made exhibits prior. 2 This is Inquiry Document 2005302 and I'm 3 going to be asking about these portions. I'd suggest 4 that it might be appropriate to make this portion an 5 exhibit or -- but I'm in your hands, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think they 7 are an exhibit. I think -- 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I know that -- I know 9 that excerpts were made a part of Exhibit P-1444; we'd 10 have to just double-check the exhibit to make sure these 11 particular pages were a part of that. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If they're 13 not we'll make them part of -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But -- 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm not sure that they 16 were, they were just excerpts that were -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but if 18 these pages aren't part of Exhibit 1444 will we just make 19 them part or add them as another exhibit? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: A new one. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: New exhibit. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: New exhibit? 23 Okay. That's fine. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry, thank you. 25 This should then be an exhibit as I understand, sir?


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-1581, Your Honour. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1581: Document Number 2005302. 5 Statement of Ronald E. Piers. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 8 Q: So what is now Exhibit P-1581, if I 9 could turn you to page 8 of that exhibit this is 10 purportedly a report of an interview with Jamie Stirling. 11 Do you know a Jamie Stirling, sir? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Sorry? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And he reports according to this 16 notation about three-quarters of the way down: 17 "Was told by Chris Cossitt that he, 18 Cossitt, observed a large muzzle flash 19 from inside the car. He said the gun 20 was a sawed-off shotgun." 21 Now, did you tell that to Mr. Stirling? 22 A: I -- I don't recall making that 23 statement, sir. No, I -- I don't know what I said to 24 him. Jamie Stirling is part of Mount Forest team. I 25 would have been staying with him probably at the hotel


1 with him. I don't recall a conversation I had back then 2 with him. 3 Q: So you may have said that, you may 4 not. You don't recall? 5 A: I'm sorry, I don't recall. 6 Q: Thank you. And then continuing it 7 says if you look just below that it says: 8 "Interviewed Jeff Thorne." 9 And then continuing on the other side it 10 says: 11 "Chris Cossitt told him about seeing a 12 long gun pointed out the window from 13 the car." 14 Might you have told him that? 15 A: I don't recall making -- having any 16 conversation with the guys. I didn't say that to the 17 interviewer. I don't know what they said. It's the 18 first time I've seen this. 19 Q: So again you don't recall whether or 20 not you might have said that to Mr. Thorne? 21 A: I didn't make that comment that he's 22 saying here now, no. 23 Q: You didn't say that, did you? 24 A: I don't recall what I said. I -- I 25 didn't make the statement that's before the Court here


1 now. 2 Q: Now, you would agree that if you saw 3 what you concluded was a shotgun you wouldn't call it a 4 long gun, right? 5 A: No, it would be a shotgun. 6 Q: Sorry? 7 A: I've noted it in my notebook as a 8 shotgun. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: But -- and you wouldn't use the 12 expression 'long gun' to mean shotgun, you would mean 13 another -- an ordinary rifle of some kind, right? 14 A: I would call a shotgun a shotgun, 15 yes. 16 Q: Yes, exactly, that's what I -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- meant. Now, if you could turn to 19 page 30 of that extract. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Towards the bottom of the page, it 24 says: 25 "Interviewed Chris Cossitt,"


1 And there it says: 2 "He observed a weapon in the car, 3 driver's side." 4 Would you have told Mr. Piers that on or 5 about September 19th, 1997? 6 A: I don't remember the conversation. I 7 may have. 8 Q: So you might have told him you saw a 9 weapon in the car, driver's side? 10 A: I may have. I really don't recall 11 that, sir. 12 Q: Okay. If you could turn to the next 13 tab, please, Tab 34. That's an Affidavit from David 14 Smith who, according to the Affidavit, is a Provincial 15 Constable with the Ontario Provincial Police. 16 Did you know Constable David Smith? 17 A: Yes, he's part of the Mount Forest 18 team. 19 Q: Sorry, part of...? 20 A: He's part of the Mount Forest team. 21 Q: Thank you. If you turn to paragraph 22 14 of that document, please. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 A: Sorry, that was 14? 2 Q: Paragraph 14, towards the end of that 3 Affidavit. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: "During discussions at our hotel 8 later that night, Officer Cossitt 9 stated that he had approached the car 10 with intent to arrest the driver. He 11 said that when he reached the car he 12 saw a shotgun come up from behind the 13 driver's seat. The gun came out the 14 window and was fired. 15 Officer Cossitt said the gun was 16 pointed up when it was fired. He told 17 us that he backed off when the gun was 18 fired." 19 Now, sir, did you tell Officer Smith that? 20 A: I don't recall whether or not I did. 21 Q: Okay. Now first off, I should like 22 this to be made the next exhibit, Mr. Commissioner. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1582, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1582: Document Number 2005347.


1 Court of Appeal for Ontario, 2 Her Majesty the Queen v. 3 Kenneth Deane, Affidavit of 4 David Smith, August 01, 1998. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: So you might have told Officer Smith 8 that you saw a shotgun come up from behind the driver's 9 seat? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I'm -- I'm not -- I don't recall what 14 I said. I can't -- I don't know what terminology other 15 people use. I wasn't involved in that. 16 Q: But you might have used that 17 terminology? 18 A: I don't recall, sir. 19 Q: Thank you. And then paragraph -- Tab 20 35. It's the Affidavit of a Myra Rusk who says that she 21 was a Provincial Constable. Did you know Constable Rusk? 22 A: Yes. She was part of our Mount 23 Forest team, too. 24 Q: And she deposes, in paragraph 10: 25 "Later that night, Officer Cossitt said


1 that he had seen a gun barrel stuck out 2 of back window of the car and had seen 3 gunfire out the window." 4 Now did you tell Officer Rusk that, sir? 5 A: I don't recall that, sir, no. That's 6 terminology she would have used, not -- I don't know what 7 I would have said and I don't recall that part. 8 Q: Well, she swore an Affidavit that you 9 did say that, sir. Now, can you -- are you denying that 10 you said it or -- 11 A: No, I'm not. I don't know what I 12 said. I can't recall, sir. 13 Q: I see. So you might have told her, 14 you don't know whether you did or not, that you'd seen a 15 gun barrel stuck out of the back window of the car? 16 A: I don't recall, sir. 17 Q: Thank you. I should like that to be 18 an exhibit, Mr. Commissioner. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1583, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1583: Document Number 2005345. 22 Court of Appeal of Ontario, 23 Her Majesty the Queen v. 24 Kenneth Deane, Affidavit of 25 Myra Rusk, August 03, 1998.


1 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 3 to have to take a break for lunch at sometime but -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. This would 5 actually be a good time. And I'm going to be very brief 6 after lunch. I'm going to -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 8 prefer to finish or have lunch -- 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'd prefer to have 10 a moment to be and then I shall be even briefer. I'm 11 going to consolidate, thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right, 13 then we'll take a lunch break now. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 16 adjourned until 1:45. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 12:40 p.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 1:50 p.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed, please be seated. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 24 Rosenthal...? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good afternoon, Mr.


1 Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 5 Q: Afternoon, sir. 6 A: Good afternoon, sir. 7 Q: Sir, could you please turn to your 8 notes for September 6, page 54 thereof? For the rest of 9 us it's at Tab 16 and it's Exhibit P-1570. 10 And if you look about a third of the way 11 down, it says something like: 12 "Could see three (3) or four (4) people 13 ride back towards the Park." 14 It said originally, is that right? 15 A: Running back towards the Park, yes, 16 sir. 17 Q: Yes, well, originally it said ride 18 back to the Park, right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then you crossed that out and 21 wrote running, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And when did you do that crossing out 24 and write running? 25 A: At the time I did my notes, sir.


1 Q: Right at the moment that you did your 2 notes, you mean? 3 A: That's what I recall, yes, sir. I 4 initialled -- 5 Q: You -- you wrote, "ride" first, 6 right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You wrote: 9 "Ride back towards the Park." 10 You finished the sentence first? 11 A: I don't recall what I finished or 12 whether I crossed it out as it happened. I don't recall. 13 I initialled it and crossed it out with one (1) line so 14 that it still could be read underneath it. 15 Q: Well, underneath that sentence after, 16 "towards the Park," there's writing in a different pen, 17 right? 18 A: I don't recall. It could be. 19 Q: It's apparent even on the photocopy 20 and it's more apparent when you look at the original that 21 it's a different pen; isn't that fair? 22 A: It could be, sir. 23 Q: And --- 24 A: It's black ink, it's -- there is some 25 difference to it.


1 Q: With your indulgence, Mr. 2 Commissioner, may I look at his notes again? I did 3 during the break with his counsel's approval, but I 4 should like one more time. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: I would suggest to you, sir, that it 9 looks like the -- the word "running" is written in a pen 10 similar to the pen that you used when you continued 11 towards the bottom of the page rather than the original 12 pen that you were using; that's fair, isn't it? 13 A: I don't recall, sir. I -- I do carry 14 more than one (1) pen with me -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: -- in my pocket. I don't recall if I 17 switched pens or what -- I'm sorry, I don't recall. 18 Q: But, sir, I would put it to you that 19 it suggests, looking at your notes, that you stopped 20 writing the notes at some point, ending, "back towards 21 the Park." And then you resumed at some point 22 thereafter, we can't tell how much thereafter obviously, 23 and when you resumed you crossed out "ride" and wrote 24 "running" and then continued beyond. 25 Isn't that a fair reading of your notes,


1 especially in the originals? 2 A: I don't recall exactly what happened, 3 sir. It could have been that I might have been -- a 4 minute or two (2) passed by before I re-started. I don't 5 know. It may have been a change of pens for -- I don't 6 recall for what reason. It may have been I had to go -- 7 the easiest thing is go to the washroom. I don't know. 8 Q: Okay. Thank you. If you could 9 please turn to Tab 26 again, the transcript of Cecil 10 Bernard George, at Exhibit P-1573. I would just like to 11 ask you whether you gave certain additional answers, 12 beginning at page 245. 13 I'm going to just simply read some 14 questions and answers to you, sir, and ask you if you 15 gave those answers to those questions at that occasion. 16 Beginning at line 25 on page 245: 17 "Q: Now, the Native male that we have 18 been discussing here, I believe your 19 evidence is he had started to run back 20 towards the Park, correct? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And is it fair to say what was 23 happening was the CMU was catching up 24 to him?" 25 And continuing on -- on the next page:


1 "A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And it was apparent that he was 3 about to be overrun when he turned 4 around, I suggest to you? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And at that point he turned around 7 and raised whatever he had in his hand 8 in some way, did he. 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And now I understand that you 11 didn't see exactly what happened in the 12 next second; is that correct? 13 A: That's correct, sir. 14 Q: But within a second you are aware 15 he's down? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: All right. And you continued to 18 move forward? 19 A: Yes, sir." 20 And then -- well, perhaps I should read 21 from the next question: 22 "Now, you've indicated to My Friend, I 23 think, at the end of your examination- 24 in-chief, that you believe it was -- 25 you believed that the Native that we've


1 been discussing was arrested? 2 A: Yes, sir." 3 Now, sir, I'm just simply asking you, did 4 you give those answers to those questions under oath at 5 the trial of Cecil Bernard George? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Thank you. If you can turn now to 8 Tab 28, which is Exhibit P-1576, and at page 199 of that 9 document. Sorry, perhaps I should begin at the bottom of 10 page 198. And again, sir, I'm simply going to be asking 11 you if you gave these answers to these questions on that 12 occasion. 13 Question, towards the bottom of page 198: 14 "So let me see, your involvement with 15 Cecil Bernard George is he falls, you 16 see him fall down. I just want to know 17 what you see. You see him fall down?" 18 Continuing on the next page: 19 "Yes, sir, he went down. Yes, sir, on 20 his back. 21 Q: How did he end up going down? 22 A: I actually hit him. 23 Q: You hit him? 24 A: With my shield. I just kind of 25 ran towards him. We had body contact


1 like a check type thing. 2 Q: Okay. And that made him go down? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And then he tried to grab your leg 5 and then you lashed out at him once, 6 but you're not sure if you connected? 7 A: He kicked out towards me. 8 Q: Okay. And that is the last time 9 you saw Cecil Bernard George or did you 10 see him being taken to the prisoner 11 van? 12 A: I stood in front and then as I was 13 getting back up there were -- was other 14 officers came to him and they were 15 taking him away at that time. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: But I didn't see any further after 18 that. 19 Q: So you can't help us on how he 20 received multiple injuries? 21 A: No, sir." 22 Did you give those answers to those 23 questions? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: Thank you. Now, this vehicle that


1 you say at some point had a barrel pointing out from it, 2 you described as a silver car; is that correct? 3 A: Yes. In my notebooks I have silver. 4 Q: You have silver? 5 A: Well, I have "sil" which to me 6 indicates silver. 7 Q: Silver. Now, you know that the 8 driver of that car was ultimately charged with some 9 offences as a result of his activity on September 6th, 10 1995, right? 11 You know that, right? 12 A: No, sir. I -- I -- I don't. 13 Q: Well, sir, if we could please turn -- 14 well, sorry, maybe you still have -- 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: Tab 28, the Deane trial. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Exhibit P-1576, page 200, line 16 or 21 thereabouts. 22 "Q: Well, did you ever make any 23 attempt to -- well, first of all, today 24 you know his identity, don't you, the 25 driver of the car?


1 A: I understand someone has been 2 charged. I -- no, I can't identify 3 him. I heard a name but that's the 4 best I can give you. 5 Q: Right. You have a name of the 6 person driving the car, correct? 7 A: Yes, sir." 8 Now, did you give those answers to those 9 questions, sir? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: So you knew that somebody had been 12 charged and you knew his name; is that correct, or no? 13 A: I don't recall anyone getting charged 14 for that, sir, no. 15 Q: Well, at the time of the Deane trial 16 you evidently did know someone was charged, correct? 17 A: It's in the transcript there, yes. 18 Q: Well we've had some evidence, the 19 person who was driving the car was named Warren George. 20 Does that ring a bell now, sir, when I remind you of that 21 name? 22 You evidently knew a name at the time of 23 the Deane trial, I put it to you it must have been the 24 name Warren George, sir. 25 A: At this point, sir, I -- I -- it's


1 ringing no bell to me, sir. 2 Q: Did -- were you a witness at the 3 trial of Regina and Warren George, sir? 4 A: I don't recall being a witness, sir. 5 Q: Well, you told a number of people 6 that you had seen shooting from the car, right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: How could it possibly be that you 9 were not called as a witness at the trial? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How can he 11 answer that question? 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How can he 14 answer that question? 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I shall 16 pursue it in a -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- different way -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 20 so. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- then, Mr. 22 Commissioner. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: Sir, you're a police officer, are you


1 not, sir? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: If someone commits a serious criminal 4 offence, it's your responsibility to investigate that 5 offence. 6 Is that correct, sir? 7 A: Myself or someone else, yes. 8 Q: I'm sorry? 9 A: Myself or someone else. 10 Q: Yourself or someone else. And was 11 there an investigation that you were aware of, of the 12 shooting at you, according to your evidence, by the 13 driver of the car? 14 A: I submitted my evidence, I'm not sure 15 what happened or why I wasn't apprised of anything nor 16 was I consulted in the command staff making decisions on 17 what investigations were taking place. 18 I wasn't consulted like that, sir. 19 Q: I would put it to you, sir, that if 20 you had been shot at by someone, you would investigate 21 and make sure that that person was charged, if that 22 person could be located; charged with some very serious 23 offence, such as attempted murder. 24 What's your response to that, sir? 25 A: I forward my evidence to my


1 supervisors which -- who would thoroughly investigate it, 2 and if the evidence was there would be put before people 3 such as Crown attorneys and stuff like that, who would -- 4 I would respect their judgment and the appropriate 5 charges would be laid. 6 Q: And which supervisor did you give 7 that information to for that purpose, sir? 8 A: My information went into the Criminal 9 Investigation Bureau somewhere, to someone. 10 Q: You mentioned your supervisor -- you 11 said your supervisor, didn't you, sir? 12 A: Well, people -- my supervisors and 13 immediate people in charge of the OPP in general. 14 Q: So in what form did it go into the 15 Criminal Investigation Bureau, sir? 16 A: I've provided several statements. I 17 know there was investigators looking at the situation, at 18 the events. 19 Q: And did you -- did you find out, was 20 it ever placed before a Crown attorney, sir? 21 A: No, sir, I did not. 22 Q: You didn't pursue it at all? 23 A: No, sir, I -- I respect their -- 24 their abilities and their judgment. 25 Q: Did anybody in the Criminal


1 Investigation Bureau, or otherwise in -- among your 2 supervisors, tell you that they were not pursuing it 3 because they didn't believe your evidence, sir? 4 A: No, sir, I've never been told that. 5 Q: I see. Now, sir, you were asked by 6 Ms. Vella whether you had any T-shirts which were made in 7 relation to this event, and you indicated, No; is that 8 right? 9 A: That's correct, sir. 10 Q: Now, sir, did you see some officers 11 wearing T-shirts related to Ipperwash? 12 A: No, sir, I don't recall anyone. 13 Q: Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. 14 Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 16 Mr. Rosenthal. 17 Mr. Scullion...? 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 19 Commissioner. 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 22 Q: Good afternoon, Officer Cossitt. 23 A: Good afternoon, sir. 24 Q: My name's Kevin Scullion, I'm one (1) 25 of the counsel for the Residents of Aazhoodena. You


1 might know them better as the Stoney Point Group. 2 You've been asked a number of questions by 3 Ms. Vella and by Mr. Rosenthal about people that you 4 talked to in relating what occurred that evening. 5 Do you remember that line of questioning? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Okay. If I can turn you, I just want 8 to close that off, to your Tab 33? Do you have that in 9 front of you? 10 A: 33, yes. 11 Q: That's the statement of Ronald Piers? 12 If you turn -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: If you turn to page 2, there's a note 15 about interviewing Jamie Stirling; you've been asked 16 about that. At the bottom there's an interview that took 17 place with a Jeff Thorne? Do you see the name? 18 A: Page 8? Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's the 20 second page in our exhibit but it's page -- 21 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: The second page of 22 our exhibit. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's page 8. 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's page 8 -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.


1 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- in the actual 2 document. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 6 Q: Do you see the name at the bottom? 7 A: Jeff Thorne? Yes, sir. 8 Q: Do you know a Jeff Thorne? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. Is that one (1) of the 11 people that you also talked about this event with? 12 A: He's one (1) of the members of our 13 Emergency Response Team on the Mount Forest team, yes, 14 sir, and I would be with him that night. 15 Q: Okay. Your discussions with people 16 about what occurred that night, you keep referring back 17 to going back to the hotel the morning of September the 18 7th. 19 Did you discuss this with any of your 20 fellow officers after September the 7th? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I don't recall. 25 Q: Okay. So it's possible that you


1 talked with people after that point in time? 2 A: Yes, it could be. I'm -- I'm sorry, 3 I don't recall. 4 Q: Okay. Do you recall speaking with a 5 Mr. Thorne about that incident? 6 A: Actually, no, I don't. 7 Q: No. If you move down page 9 which is 8 the third page of our tab, there's an interview of a W. 9 H. Smith. Do you see that name? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you know that individual? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And there's a reference about you 14 telling W. H. Smith about the incident. Do you recall 15 speaking with W. H. Smith? 16 A: He's a member of our Emergency 17 Response Team/Mount Forest team who I would be with. I 18 don't recall speaking with him. I was upset at that 19 point. I don't recall any conversation with him. 20 Q: All right. I appreciate that and to 21 be fair it's eleven (11) years ago. But is it fair to 22 say you've had a lot of discussions with a lot of people 23 about this event and the details of what happened that 24 night? 25 A: I -- I've talked to several people,


1 yes. 2 Q: All right. And you've done 3 investigations in the course of your career, right? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And you're aware of the benefit of 6 keeping people separate in relation to an incident so 7 that you can get their story directly from them. You'd 8 agree with me that that's one (1) of the purposes of 9 separating people? 10 A: That's one (1) purpose, yes, sir. 11 Q: Right. And that's a benefit, you're 12 able to get their evidence directly from them as opposed 13 to what may be evidence coming through somebody that's 14 actually evidence of somebody else, correct? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: Right. And the risk is that you're 17 going to have a lot of details coming from somebody that 18 may not be their recollection, they might be somebody 19 else's, correct? 20 A: Could be some reason, yes, sir. 21 Q: Right. And that's a risk and that's 22 something that you address when you're doing your 23 investigations, correct? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: All right. When you return to the


1 command post from the parking lot, did you receive any 2 direction from any of your superior officers not to talk 3 with anybody about what happened? 4 A: I don't recall that, sir. 5 Q: Do I take it, though, that if you'd 6 received that kind of direction from a superior officer 7 you would have followed it? 8 A: I -- I usually follow my orders, yes. 9 Q: All right. And the fact that you had 10 a number of discussions that night, and possibly 11 subsequent, would be a good indicator that you didn't 12 receive that kind of direction from your superiors? 13 A: I'd be making an assumption. I don't 14 recall it, whether or not I received it or didn't. 15 Q: This morning you referred to a term - 16 - or you were referred to a term that you used in one of 17 the trials, of 'uprising'. 18 Do you remember that question put to you? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Do you recall whether or not that was 21 your term or a term used by others to describe what was 22 happening at the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 23 A: Excuse me. I don't recall whether 24 that was my term or whether others used it. I -- sorry, 25 I -- I don't recall that.


1 Q: All right. If I can turn you to Tab 2 26 of your book, page 228. You have that in front of 3 you? 4 A: Page 228, yes, sir. 5 Q: Okay. This is your testimony at the 6 trial of Cecil Bernard George. And the point in time, at 7 the top of page 228, is after the Crowd Management Unit 8 has backed up from the fence, okay? 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: You're being asked about noise that's 11 being generated from the occupiers of the Ipperwash Park. 12 And the question put to you was: 13 "What were they saying as far as you 14 heard, if you were able to hear 15 anything?" 16 Do you see your answer to that question? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: You say: 19 "I just heard that they were yelling at 20 us and that it was their land and 21 sometimes telling us their grandfather 22 had died for this land, it was theirs, 23 and just continued that style. It was 24 coming from all directions." 25 You remember giving that answer to that


1 question at the time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. This morning you've added more 4 details. You told us that, in fact, you were called a 5 fucking pig at that point in time. 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: He wasn't adding more 7 details, he was reading from his notes. It's in his 8 notes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This morning 10 when he answered he was reading from his notes? 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: He was reading from his 12 notes. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I was reading 14 from my notes. It is in my notes. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 17 Q: All right. Do you have independent 18 recollection outside of your notes of that comment being 19 made to you at that point in time? 20 A: Other than refreshing my memory, I 21 can remember there were several comments being made 22 towards us. I recall those comments being made, yes, 23 sir. 24 Q: Do you recall that specific comment 25 being made at that point in time?


1 A: No, I can't, sir. 2 Q: Okay. And do you recall the specific 3 comment of grandfather having died for this land and it 4 was theirs? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Okay. That came out over top of the 7 din or the noise that was occurring at that point in 8 time, correct? 9 A: I could hear it being yelled. I 10 don't know where it was coming from. 11 Q: Okay. And I'll be fair to you. 12 Other witnesses, other OPP officers, have testified that 13 they heard that over top of other noise that was going on 14 at that point in time. 15 My question to you though, is this morning 16 you attributed that comment to a fellow that came out of 17 the Park and was swinging a stick; you remember giving 18 that evidence? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yes. He also made a comment, I think 23 I referred to -- that was the gentleman that drew the 24 line in the sand. 25 Q: Right. Your testimony was that that


1 person said, when they came out with their stick that, My 2 father died for this land, and when you were asked more 3 questions by Ms. Vella, you said it was something to that 4 effect, something like that. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do I take it that you don't recall 7 him saying that specific phrase at that point in time? 8 A: I don't recall specifically what was 9 said. It was something similar to that. 10 Q: All right. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: You also mentioned this morning, a 15 left cover punchout. Do you remember testifying about 16 that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 19 that's not in your notes and it's not in the interview 20 that occurred on September the 8th. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: If you want me to take you to that, I 23 can. 24 A: No. That's right. 25 Q: Okay. It's not there. Do you


1 specifically recall a left punchout occurring in the 2 sandy parking lot? 3 A: As we were backing up, yes, sir. 4 Q: Why would that not be in your notes 5 of the details of the incident at the time? 6 Do you have an explanation for that? 7 A: It didn't directly involve me. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: You testified this morning that a 12 fellow by the name of Judas was swinging the stick -- 13 A: I believe -- 14 Q: -- in the parking lot. 15 A: -- I believe it was that person, yes. 16 Q: All right. And your belief is based 17 on the fact that the person swinging the stick was a 18 large individual, similar in statute to Judas, who you'd 19 met a day or two (2) earlier, correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: It's not that you saw his face in the 22 dark and said, that's Judas. You simply guessed that it 23 could be him because of the size; is that fair? 24 A: There's a little bit more to it. He 25 was standing on the -- would be -- get my bearings --


1 east side of the fire and I was on the west side, so 2 there was some illumination from the fire. And he was 3 standing beside the fire. So I could see some of the 4 faces. I met him once before and it appeared to be the 5 same person. 6 Q: From his face? You recognized his 7 face at that point in time? 8 A: I -- yes, I dealt with him a day or 9 two (2) before that and it looked like it was the same 10 person as I had dealt with before. 11 Q: Okay. Again, his name doesn't appear 12 in your notes or in an interview statement taken at the 13 time. 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: Any reason why you wouldn't identify 16 anybody that you knew was there, swinging a stick at the 17 time? 18 A: I can't think of anything. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: You were also asked a number of 23 questions about your contact with a man by the name of 24 Cecil Bernard George and part of your evidence this 25 morning was that you used your ASP baton to block a kick


1 from Cecil Bernard George. 2 Do you remember that? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: You also said you don't know if you 5 made contact with him. 6 A: I'm not a 100 percent sure whether or 7 not I did, sir. 8 Q: You'd agree with me that swinging 9 this ASP baton is either going to hit something, or 10 you're going to miss, correct? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: You don't recall hitting anything 13 with that ASP baton when you swung it at his leg? 14 A: No, I don't. I was falling forward 15 at the same time, sir. I was in a motion forward. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Now, Mr. Commissioner, I think I have 20 to take credit for the latest notice ever provided. I 21 just spoke with Mr. Roland. 22 But if I can refer the Witness to P-1556. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1556. 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Mr. Roland's 25 indicated that it's not a problem.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it in our 2 binder? 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No. 4 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It was introduced 5 this morning. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh. 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Or, sorry, 8 yesterday. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It was -- 10 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Mr. LeBlanc. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: When My Friend told me 12 about it, I didn't object to and because I'd remembered 13 it from yesterday. Although I don't think I have a copy 14 of it unfortunately because it wasn't part of any 15 productions today. I do remember it. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let me take 17 a quick look at it, I want to see if I remember it. 18 Which document is that? Oh, this is -- 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's the Affidavit 20 but it's -- I'm referring to the map -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Of LeBlanc, 22 right. 23 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- that's attached. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't have 25 my copy here either, but that's fine.


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We will get one. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is the 3 LeBlanc's Affidavit in connection with the Deane appeal? 4 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It is. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 8 Q: And I just ask -- ask you to have 9 that handy. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Because what I'm trying to determine 12 is your location in relation to others on the roadway 13 when the car's coming towards to you on East Parkway 14 Drive, okay? 15 You've testified this morning that you 16 were within three (3) to four (4) steps of the car when 17 it turned into the officers on the side of the road. 18 Do you remember saying that? 19 A: Yes, running steps. 20 Q: Right. Fair enough and I -- I take 21 it running steps would make it 10 to 15 feet away? 22 A: Yeah, approximately. 23 Q: Okay. So you're standing in the 24 middle of the road as this car is bearing down towards 25 you on East Parkway Drive and at the last second it turns


1 to the right, your left -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- into officers that are on the side 4 of the roadway? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Was there anybody standing beside you 9 or in front of you on the road when this car was 10 approaching you? 11 A: I don't recall anybody there. 12 Q: Do you recall where the prisoner vans 13 were located when this car was coming towards you on East 14 Parkway Drive? 15 A: I don't know where they were. 16 Q: Okay. Take a look at the map that's 17 in front of you right now. And again it's P-1556, at 18 least part of 1556. That's a map that Officer LeBlanc 19 provided to us. He was driving one (1) of the prisoner 20 vans, okay? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: He's drawn the car in the right or 23 the north ditch and it's marked with a "3". 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And there's --


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: -- two (2) prisoner vans marked with 3 "1" and "2". 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: Do you see that? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Does that help you at all as to where 8 you were at the point in time that the car turned into 9 the right or north ditch? 10 A: I was around the center of the 11 roadway, the travel portion of the roadway, and then I -- 12 I moved across to where the vehicle had got turned into. 13 Q: Well, you testified that it was 14 coming directly at you, right? 15 A: That's what I felt like and then it 16 veered sharply. 17 Q: Well, I -- I understand that, if it 18 hadn't veered it would have hit you? 19 A: That's -- yes. 20 Q: Right. We've heard from Staff 21 Sergeant Wade Lacroix that he was standing in the middle 22 of the roadway, about 20 feet from where the car turned 23 to the right and drove into officers on the north side. 24 Do you recall Wade Lacroix being anywhere 25 around you at the point in time that this car's coming


1 down the road? 2 A: No, sir, the only people I'm aware of 3 were the ones that were on the vehicle, that had been 4 struck. 5 Q: We're not there yet. 6 A: I -- I have no recollection of 7 anybody else near me. 8 Q: So I take it if I suggest to you that 9 we've also heard from Kevin York that he was standing in 10 the middle of the roadway about 20 feet from where the 11 car turned to the right into the officers on the north 12 side of the road, you don't recall seeing Kevin York 13 there either? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: Do I take it then, as soon as the car 16 hits the officers and is on the north side that's when 17 you move towards the car? 18 A: I was already moving. Because the 19 car was moving by me I had already been starting to move 20 to the north. I didn't stop, I didn't hesitate, I was a 21 continuous fluid motion over. 22 Q: Okay. We've also heard from Staff 23 Sergeant Lacroix that the car immediately after hitting 24 the officers backed out into East Parkway onto the 25 pavement and into the middle of the road again.


1 Do you recall that happening? 2 A: Immediately? 3 Q: Immediately. 4 A: I had time to get up beside the 5 vehicle. It wasn't like I was standing there for 6 seconds. Everything was happening very quickly and it 7 was continuous non-stop movement that -- that was going 8 on. It wasn't that it was a hesitation or a stop, it was 9 -- I arrived at the car, my arm went up -- to me it was 10 all continuous, it was non-stop. 11 Q: I understand that. Staff Sergeant 12 Lacroix, Officer LeBlanc, who was sitting in the -- the 13 prisoner van, Officer York, all testified that the car 14 backed up into -- onto the paved portion of the roadway 15 and stopped. 16 Do you recall that occurring? 17 A: It did occur after it hit the guys, 18 yes. 19 Q: So after you were involved with the 20 car, you say it then backed out and stopped in the middle 21 of the roadway? 22 A: After I confronted -- went to the 23 driver's side? Immediately after I rose yes, it did back 24 out. 25 Q: Okay. And your evidence is that it


1 stopped at that point in time in the middle of the 2 roadway? 3 A: Very briefly. 4 Q: Well, Staff Sergeant Lacroix says 5 that it stopped right in the middle of the roadway and he 6 ran forward and shot twice at the driver of the vehicle. 7 Do you recall that occurring while it 8 stopped briefly in the middle of the roadway? 9 A: No, sir, I do not. I didn't see 10 anything like that. 11 Q: Officer York has testified that he 12 also shot at the car when it was stopped in the middle of 13 the roadway. 14 Do you recall a gunshot from Officer York 15 or somebody standing -- 16 A: No, sir, I do not recall. 17 Q: -- in the roadway? Off -- Sergeant 18 Hebblethwaite also testified that when the car came to a 19 stop in the middle of the roadway, he was concerned that 20 the car was going to go back into the officers, and at 21 that point in time he also shot at the car. 22 Do you recall a shot coming from Sergeant 23 Hebblethwaite or somebody on the other side of the car 24 from you? 25 A: The only thing I can recall is I fell


1 back onto the centre of the road and I seen sparks at the 2 side of the vehicle. What they were, I -- I don't know-- 3 Q: Okay. But you testified that you 4 moved quickly and that the car was stopped but came back 5 towards or at you. 6 Do you remember testifying to that effect? 7 A: It backed up, stopped and kind of 8 came forward a little bit, just a very short distance, 9 that's what it seemed like to me as I -- I was on the lid 10 -- sitting -- sitting or on my knees on the asphalt; just 11 seemed to pull forward a bit and back up and then it went 12 back into the -- -- the Park. 13 Q: So that was after you -- or at least 14 your evidence today about confronting the driver of the 15 car? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. Let me go to that exact 18 moment. When you see the car and move towards it, is it 19 on your left or on your right? 20 A: It would be on my left. 21 Q: Okay. So you're running towards the 22 car from the back part of the car towards the driver's 23 side? 24 A: No, sir. I was more to the front, 25 sir.


1 Q: So you're running to your left or are 2 you running to your right to -- 3 A: Maybe I'm -- 4 Q: -- address driver -- 5 A: -- Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. 6 As I -- who's in the center of the road moving to the 7 north, to the lake side, I approach the car and I was 8 approaching from the front of the vehicle on the driver's 9 side, and I arrived at the 'A' pillar of the windshield. 10 I didn't come from behind. I -- I was 11 more so to the front and side. 12 Q: Let me just back up. You're standing 13 in the middle of the roadway and the car goes to the 14 north ditch, correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: How did you get around to the front 17 of the car, which is apparently in the ditch according to 18 your evidence, in order to come back towards the driver, 19 to the driver's door? 20 A: The vehicle was coming west on East 21 Parkway. I was in around the center of the road, still 22 moving across the roadway. And prior to coming to me it 23 veered sharply into the other officers and I just 24 continued. 25 Q: Right. It not only veered, it kept


1 going into the officers, right? It went off of the paved 2 part of the roadway? 3 A: It was on the sandy shoulder. 4 Q: Right. You were still on the paved 5 roadway, correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: But you're saying you're coming from 8 the other side, the north side of the driver's door. 9 A: I'm sorry? I'm not following you 10 there. Can you repeat that, please? 11 Q: I'm trying to follow your testimony. 12 When you're approaching the driver's door, 13 you're coming from the front of the car? 14 A: From the -- I was on an angle, wasn't 15 straight. The vehicle was on an angle in and I went in 16 to the front 'A' pillar of that post, that's where I 17 arrived. 18 Q: That's what you were running towards? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that's at one o'clock, two 21 o'clock, three o'clock? What would that be in comparison 22 to how you're looking? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 A: It would... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: To where I left at from the center 6 road it was a street line for me, so it was -- the car 7 was right in front of me. 8 Q: So you were running directly at the 9 window of the driver's side -- 10 A: Not directly at the window. I was 11 more so to the front of the vehicle, but I ran directly 12 to the front quarter panel, 'A' post, from the location I 13 was at. 14 Q: And you're running at it, your 15 shield's in your left hand; is that right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And your baton is in your right hand? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what were you going to do when 20 you got to the driver's side of the vehicle? 21 A: I was going to a baton strike is what 22 my intention was. 23 Q: Was there part of the driver hanging 24 outside the window or were you going to reach in to the 25 car to give a baton strike?


1 A: I never seen -- I don't recall 2 anybody sitting there but the car was driven there 3 somehow. So I suspected there was somebody driving it. 4 Q: Well, you saw somebody driving it, 5 You were running at the driver's side window, correct? 6 A: I don't recall anybody in there. It 7 was dark inside the vehicle, sir. 8 Q: Okay. So it was dark at the point in 9 time. You don't know if anybody's inside the vehicle 10 other than somebody must have been driving it? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: All right. So you didn't see more 13 than one (1) person? You didn't even see the driver? 14 A: I -- I don't know how many people 15 were in the vehicle, no. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: If I can turn you back to the map 20 that you have in front of you. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Do you see the location of what's 25 referred to as vehicle 1, the number 1?


1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: Is that where you're running from 6 when you were approaching that vehicle? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I was running -- if you see where -- 11 in my opinion, the vehicle wasn't as quite sharp of an 12 angle with the back end out on to the road. It was more 13 so at the front end. 14 I was running where that 'X' is that's 15 beside vehicle 3 sir, that would be kind -- I would be a 16 little bit -- not much west of that, but I'd be running 17 straight across that way approximately. 18 But I -- I -- the vehicle, to me, wasn't 19 that -- on sharp of an angle, what I can recall. 20 Q: So when this shot -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 22 Roland...? 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: In fairness to the 24 Witness, there's a very detailed diagram of what he says 25 he saw and where the positioning -- he says the


1 positioning was and seems to me that that's the best -- 2 his best evidence about it. It's been put in evidence. 3 It's a great, big blown up diagram and we -- he didn't 4 draw this one. He drew one and -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, we're 6 working from LeBlanc's drawing here, yes. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: But we don't -- we don't 8 know that LeBlanc's draw -- LeBlanc's rec -- recollection 9 of it. The witness is putting his recollection -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it 11 possible for you to ask your questions using that 12 drawing, Mr. Scullion, the one that's on the board? 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's almost 14 impossible. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is? 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: From what I have and 17 from what I've seen there -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- there's no 20 reference, and maybe I can be corrected, simply because 21 mine's so small, as to where the prisoner vans are at 22 all, according to Mr. Cossitt's -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have we -- 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- recollection. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, that's


1 fine. 2 THE WITNESS: I have no recollection of 3 where the prisoner vans were, sir. I have none. I don't 4 know where they were. 5 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I see. You 6 appreciate what I'm trying to do is just determine the 7 locations of all of the individuals which I've been 8 referring to and seeing if Officer Cossitt can assist me 9 in that regard. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 THE WITNESS: Actually, sir, I don't know 12 where anybody else was. I don't even know who the 13 officers were on the hood of the car. I don't know where 14 anybody else was. I know what I did and what -- how I 15 reacted to things. I -- I honestly don't know where 16 anybody else was. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Given that 18 answer, it almost doesn't matter which map you use. 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Okay. Yeah. I'm 20 getting that impression. Give me a moment, I'll just 21 I'll just check. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's Fine. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: You'll be happy to 2 hear that Mr. Rosenthal covered my other sections and 3 that's all the questions I have. 4 Thank you, Mr. Cossitt. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 7 Mr. Scullion. 8 I think Ms. Johnson is up next. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 13 Q: Good afternoon, sir. Good afternoon, 14 Mr. Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 16 afternoon 17 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, ma'am. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 22 Q: My name is Colleen Johnson -- 23 A: Excuse me. Sorry. 24 Q: Are you all right? 25 A: Yeah.


1 Q: I represent the Chippewas of Kettle 2 and Stony Point today, as well as the Chiefs of Ontario. 3 I just have a few areas to go into with you, sir. And 4 mostly we'll be looking at Tab 20 -- I'm sorry, 20 -- 26, 5 which is the transcript of your testimony in the Cecil 6 Bernard George trial. 7 And you've already testified in -- in a 8 fair bit of detail with regards to your interaction with 9 Cecil Bernard George, and I will be doing my best to not 10 reiterate that same material over again. So there are 11 just a couple of questions that I have to ask you in that 12 regard, or a few as it were. 13 Now, you've indicated that you were, upon 14 arrival to the sandy parking lot, able to identify Staff 15 Sergeant Lacroix as he was speaking to the protestors; is 16 that correct? 17 A: I believe it was Staff Sergeant 18 Lacroix, yes. 19 Q: Okay. And you've also indicated this 20 morning, earlier, when Commission Counsel was examining 21 you, that you were able to identify Constable Sharp as 22 being possibly one of the people who discharged his 23 weapon; is that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And clearly you knew where


1 your partner was and could identify where he was during 2 the altercation; is that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And you would agree that 5 things were happening quite quickly? 6 A: Very quickly. 7 Q: But you had a fair idea of at least 8 where your partner was and some other members of your 9 unit too; is that correct? 10 A: Periodically, I did, yes. 11 Q: Okay. Now, on page 231 -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is 13 Exhibit P-1573, just for the record. 14 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I'm sorry. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 16 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 20 Q: Towards the bottom of the page, it's 21 actually the last question that's asked of you: 22 "When you passed this person and struck 23 at him with your baton, were there any 24 other officers dealing with him 25 specifically?"


1 You indicated there was one (1), possibly 2 two (2) there. For certain at least one (1) officer 3 there. 4 And I'm not on page 232: 5 "What was that officer doing?" 6 Is asked of you. And you indicate: 7 "He had the person on the ground, 8 trying to restrain him, just basically 9 laying on him because when you're 10 dealing -- both hands were occupied 11 with different pieces of our kit; that 12 he didn't have any free hands." 13 And then you're asked: 14 "And you ran by the person on the 15 ground?" 16 "Uh huh" is the answer, being "yes;" is 17 that correct? 18 A: Yes, there was somebody trying to lay 19 on the person. I don't know. It was the person that was 20 behind me to the left. 21 Q: Do you recall a person attempting to 22 lay on top of that individual or do you recall a person 23 on top of that individual that was on the ground? 24 A: I don't recall that now but I -- I 25 recall that -- I think it's in my transcript here.


1 Q: Do you stand by your testimony that 2 day? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Now, you indicated that he didn't 5 have both hands available, that both hands were occupied 6 with different pieces of our kit and I would suggest to 7 you, sir, that -- that refers to a baton and a shield, 8 would you agree? 9 A: As a rule, yes. 10 Q: Okay. And so I'm going to suggest 11 to you, sir, that the person on top of who we now know to 12 be Cecil Bernard George, was not a person from the rear 13 Arrest Squad because they had no shields. Would you 14 agree with that? 15 A: Yeah, I would surmise that, yes. I'm 16 not certain where those people were from. I didn't 17 recognize them, I couldn't see them. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And on page 234 now you've indicated 22 that there was -- and I'm at line 20: 23 "There was only one (1) person I ever 24 seen down, sir. 25 How do you know that he was arrested by


1 the Arrest Team or by anyone? 2 Because I seen the arrest as I was 3 backing out. They were yelling towards 4 to move and start to back up and I was 5 still -- 6 I'm sorry, will you start again. 7 As they were yelling that they were 8 going to move him out. 9 Who? 10 The Arrest Teams from behind." 11 And that's later, is that correct? 12 A: I'm sorry? 13 Q: That occurs later after you see the 14 person on top of that individual? 15 A: Yes, it would be later. 16 Q: When the Arrest Team is yelling? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. Now, on page 235, towards the 19 top of the page, you indicate: 20 "Okay. As I was standing there 21 protecting them they were yelling that 22 they were going to move him, so I 23 started to back up a bit to still try 24 to give them as much protection as I 25 could and I started to back up. I


1 backed up too quickly or too quick and 2 I stepped on somebody and they still 3 had one (1) person on the ground. They 4 moved him just after that." 5 Who did you step on at that time, sir? 6 A: I don't know who it was. 7 Q: I'd submit to you that it was the 8 individual on the ground, would you agree with that? 9 A: I don't know who it was. 10 Q: Now, in your cross-examination later 11 by Mr. Dawson, on page 235 still around line 25: 12 "You saw a fellow just lying on top of 13 him." 14 Your answer is: 15 "Yeah. He was just kind of kneeling 16 down trying to pin him down." 17 And then over to 236, approximately line 4 18 or 5, so that would be -- I'm sorry, I should read the 19 entirety. 20 "And you mentioned that there really 21 wasn't much else that person could do 22 because of all the equipment he had in 23 his hands, basically?" 24 Your answer at the top of page 236 is: 25 "Yes, sir.


1 So that would be, for example, his 2 shield and baton? 3 Yes, sir." 4 So again, you would agree that it's not a 5 person from the rear Arrest Squad who's there with him 6 because they didn't have shields. Would you agree with 7 that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And if you would turn to page 10 245... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: I'm sorry, we'll go to page 247. My 15 Friends covered 245, the answer just prior to line 15: 16 "I looked down and seen the person on 17 the ground was still there and there 18 were several other officers around. I 19 stepped on something." 20 And then the Court: 21 "That's what I'm asking you. Did you 22 look down to see if it was the same 23 person who had actually gone down 24 initially? 25 Yes, sir, it was the same person."


1 Again, I will suggest to you that it was 2 Cecil Bernard George who you stepped on at least once. 3 A: It -- I don't recall that, stepping 4 on -- who I stepped on. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And I'm going to ask you now to turn 9 to Tab 28, page 173. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 14 that's exhibit 1576. 15 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: It is. Thank you, 16 Mr. -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page -- 18 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: -- Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 173. 20 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Please. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 23 Q: At the very bottom. I had -- I'll 24 just read the last answer there: 25 "That person stopped and took the 2 x 4


1 and holding it like a baseball bat, put 2 it over his shoulder in a defensive 3 stance, and at that time, he was just 4 slightly to my left. I had my shield 5 up in front of my -- and I just kept 6 running and we had contact and he fell 7 to the ground and I stumbled and went 8 down also. 9 "And what happened as you stumbled?" 10 Is the question, and your answer is: 11 "I regained my balance and stood up in 12 front. As I was getting up, I had kind 13 of did a half turn after having contact 14 and the person on the ground kicked out 15 at me and I took one (1) swing with my 16 baton." 17 And again, you've indicated here: 18 "I'm not sure -- I'm not certain if I 19 made contact at that point or not." 20 I'm going to suggest to you that as you 21 stumbled, that at that point you also had some contact 22 with the individual on the ground. 23 A: I don't recall if I did or not, 24 ma'am. 25 Q: Possible, though, is that correct?


1 A: Could be. 2 Q: And if you'll then turn to page 186 3 of the same transcript, and this is your cross- 4 examination. At approximately line 17, well, we'll start 5 at 15: 6 "Byron, what's his last name? 7 Scwhass." 8 That is your partner that evening, is that 9 correct? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Okay. 12 "So Byron also tripped over -- over 13 him? 14 So that's tripping over Cecil Bernard 15 George? 16 And your answer is: 17 "Ah ha. Hmm hmm. 18 Pardon me?" 19 Your answer is: 20 "Yes." 21 Do you stand by that testimony today? 22 A: It appeared he did trip over him. 23 I'm not sure. I didn't ask him did he trip over him. He 24 never told me that, but it appeared that's what happened. 25 Q: You testified under Oath that Brian


1 had also tripped over him, over Cecil Bernard George. Is 2 that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you would agree that 'also' is 5 indicative of that you have indicated throughout that 6 trial that you tripped over him as well; is that correct? 7 A: With the contact? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then at page 199 -- I'm sorry, 11 sir. I'll just back up a minute. 12 Would you agree that you do not indicate 13 in your notes that you had stepped on Cecil Bernard 14 George or tripped over him? 15 A: No. No, ma'am, I didn't. 16 Q: Did you ever tell the SIU that you 17 had stepped on him or tripped over him? 18 A: I don't recall if I did or not with 19 SIU. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: At page 199: 24 "How did he end up going down?" 25 And I'm at the top of the page.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Do you have it there, sir? 4 A: I'm sorry? 5 Q: Do you have it there? 6 A: 199? Yes, ma'am. 7 Q: "How did he end up going down? 8 I actually hit him. 9 You hit him? 10 With my shield. I just kind of ran 11 toward him. We had body contact, like 12 a check type thing." 13 Do you stand by that testimony today? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Do you agree that that's a bit 16 different than your description to Ms. Vella this morning 17 on behalf of the Commissioner, or on behalf of the 18 Commission? 19 A: No. No, I had -- it was a body check 20 style. It was a glancing blow. He went to my left, I 21 went to the right. 22 Q: All right. And then down towards 23 line 17: 24 "I stood in front and as I was getting 25 back up, there were other officers came


1 to him and they were taking him away at 2 that time." 3 Can you tell me, at that point how did you 4 see him being taken away? 5 A: No, I can't, ma'am. I was -- just a 6 -- a quick glance back and I -- I don't recall how they 7 were taking him away. 8 Q: Do you recall him being dragged? 9 A: No, I don't, ma'am. 10 Q: Do you recall his hair being pulled? 11 A: No, ma'am. 12 Q: Do you recall the officers around him 13 having a hard time getting a hold of him? 14 A: I didn't look that long to make that 15 decision, I don't think. 16 Q: When you were tripping over him was 17 he being dragged? 18 A: I don't recall that. 19 Q: Now you've been able to identify a 20 number of officers including Staff Sergeant Lacroix, your 21 partner, Constable Sharp, during different periods of 22 times. 23 Can you indicate for us who you saw around 24 Cecil Bernard George during the altercation? 25 A: No, I can't, ma'am.


1 Q: And why is this, sir? 2 A: Constable Sharp I actually walked 3 right up to and I was face-to-face with him. Staff 4 Sergeant Lacroix was closer to the contact squad, which 5 was closer to the fire, and I could see him. Constable 6 Scwhass was standing beside me and he was consistently 7 there, he was my assigned partner. 8 Q: And can you explain to me when you 9 walked right up to Constable Sharp after he discharged 10 his weapon? 11 A: I'm sorry? 12 Q: You're indicating to me you walked 13 right up to Constable Sharp after he discharged his 14 weapon? 15 A: The bus and the car had gone back 16 into the Park. He was a short distance from me. He was 17 laying in the ditch and he was right there. 18 I walked up to him and checked to make 19 sure he was okay because he was laying in the -- it would 20 be on the south decline of -- kind of a little bit of a 21 decline in the sandy shoulder, and he was laying there so 22 I went over to see if he was okay. 23 Q: And what did you say to him, sir? 24 A: I don't recall what I said but it was 25 to check on his well-being.


1 Q: You didn't indicate that today in 2 your examination-in-chief; is that correct? 3 A: I mentioned -- sorry. 4 Q: My note is that you believed that you 5 could identify one (1) officer who had discharged their 6 weapon, you think that it was Constable Sharp. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Sir, I'm going to submit to you that 9 you had numerous contact with Cecil Bernard George that 10 day? 11 A: I disagree with you. 12 Q: With your shield -- well, you've 13 testified of numerous contacts so far -- with your 14 shield, with your baton, with tripping over him and with 15 possibly stepping on him, and that your partner also 16 stepped on him. 17 You agree, up to that point? 18 A: I guess, yes. 19 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that you 20 also saw other officers having contact with him? 21 A: No, ma'am. 22 Q: You've indicated you saw at least one 23 on top of him? 24 A: Yes. One (1) officer, yes. 25 Q: And you saw that very briefly, for a


1 matter of seconds? 2 A: Just very short, brief, yes. 3 Q: Okay. So he was having contact with 4 him? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: You saw officers in front of you 7 having contact with him, would you agree? 8 A: In front of me? 9 Q: I'm submitting to you that you did 10 see officers in front of you having contact with him? 11 A: No, ma'am. 12 Q: Sir, did anyone at any time ever ask 13 to -- or seize your baton for forensic examination? 14 A: No, ma'am. 15 Q: Did anyone at any time seize any 16 batons resulting from that altercation or that were used 17 in that altercation for forensic examination? 18 A: I don't know, ma'am. 19 Q: Those are my questions. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Ms. Johnson. 22 Mr. Falconer...? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 2 Q: Good afternoon, Officer Cossitt, my 3 name is Julian Falconer, I act on behalf of Aboriginal 4 Legal Services of Toronto along with Mr. Sunil Mathai 5 behind me. 6 A: Good afternoon, sir. 7 Q: If you could turn to Tab 31 of 8 Commission Counsel documents, please? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Now you'll note, if you just flip 13 back to Tab 28, that you testified on April 9th, 1997, 14 all right, just the date, it's April 9th. You see it at 15 Tab 28, right? 16 A: Yes. Yes. 17 Q: And nineteen (19) days later Judge 18 Fraser rendered his ruling in the trial that you 19 testified. 20 And could you turn to page 168, please? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Do have that in front of you, 168? 25 A: 168, yes, sir.


1 Q: And at line 14, halfway down the -- 2 the page of His Honour's reasons for judgment, he states, 3 quote: 4 "There were no Crown witnesses or 5 defence witnesses that saw any weapons 6 in the hands of the First Nations 7 people, except for Sergeant Deane and 8 except for Constable Chris Cossitt. 9 And at this point perhaps I will 10 comment on the testimony of Constable 11 Cossitt. 12 The Crown called his testimony amusing, 13 which is one (1) word, I might choose 14 others. Rather than scrutinize 15 Constable Cossitt's testimony for any 16 grains of truth that might fall out, I 17 have dismissed it entirely as being 18 clearly fabricated and implausible." 19 Now, is it your evidence, sir, that the 20 first time you read this judicial comment was when you 21 were preparing over ten (10) years later for this 22 Inquiry? 23 A: That I read that? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Now, you told Ms. Vella, I believe, 2 that you were familiar in and around the time of the 3 judgment with the gist of it? 4 A: Yes, I was aware of it. Yes. 5 Q: All right. So can we agree that the 6 gist would have been that a judge found, in a very -- we 7 agree this is a high profile case, do we? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: That a judge found, in a very high 10 profile case, that you had fabricated your evidence, and 11 you knew that at the time? 12 A: Yes, I gave my evidence at the trial 13 as best I -- as truthful as I can be, and he's entitled 14 to his opinion on that, sir. 15 Q: Fair enough. I understand, but if I 16 can just focus us a little bit on my question. 17 My question to you was, that the gist that 18 you understood at the time, in and around April 28th, 19 1997, the gist would have been, in a very high profile 20 case, a judge had found that you had fabricated your 21 evidence; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you knew that at the time, yes? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: You'd been a police officer for over


1 fifteen (15) years, seventeen (17) years at the time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Had any other judge ever found that 4 you fabricated your evidence? 5 A: No. 6 Q: So could you help Mr. Commissioner 7 and I understand how it is that you didn't bother to get 8 a copy of the judgment and read what the judge said about 9 you? 10 A: I was made aware of it through the 11 OPP channels. I don't recall who made me aware of what 12 the judgment was. There -- I was in conversation with 13 Mr. Peel, which was Ken Deane's lawyer, who also made me 14 aware what had gone on. I didn't read it verbatim from 15 it, but -- 16 Q: Were you interested? 17 A: I was told what was happening and I 18 was disappointed. 19 Q: Were you interested in what the judge 20 said? 21 A: Yes, I was interested in it, sir. 22 Q: Again, could I ask, sir, with 23 respect, why wouldn't you have bothered to take the time 24 to read it? 25 A: I was aware of what was in the


1 document, sir. 2 Q: I see. I'm looking at your resume, 3 and if you look at Tab -- I believe it's Tab 1, that in 4 your resume, it refers to you being involved -- really 5 back to your work with Peel Regional police in training 6 new officers. 7 You -- you see under work history, August 8 '81 to March '89? 9 Do you see your resume there, under work 10 history? It says: 11 "Responsible for training new officers 12 when requested." 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And then it, again: 15 "Ontario Provincial Police Wingham 16 Detachment, 1990 to 1999, received 17 training as a coach officer and in turn 18 trained newly recruited members." 19 Do you see that under, "Wingham 20 Detachment" -- A: Yes. 21 Q: -- Mr. Commissioner? You see that, 22 sir? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And that's all true? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Were you in any way re-directed in 2 terms of your training newly-recruited officers, 3 following the finding of Judge Fraser, that you 4 fabricated your evidence in the Deane trial? 5 Did that change what you did by way of 6 recruiting new officers? Were your senior officers 7 directing you to no longer train or recruit new officers 8 or anything of that nature? 9 A: I wasn't directed not to, no, sir. 10 Q: Did your duties in terms of the 11 recruitment of new officers change in any way following 12 His Honour Judge Fraser's ruling? 13 A: I'm not involved in recruitment, sir. 14 Q: Now you're not. But you were up 15 until 1999. 16 A: I was involved with training, not 17 recruitment. 18 Q: Oh, I apologize. I apologize, it's 19 my mistake. 20 Were you -- were your duties in relation 21 to the training of new officers, did they change at all 22 up until the end of May, 1999? 23 A: No, sir. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: If you could direct your attention, 2 please, to Tab 21. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: I apologize. Tab 22. It's the 7 statement that you give to a -- and I'm going to mess it 8 up. It looks like an officer Pierzchalski. Do you have 9 any idea how to pronounce his name? 10 A: I think you did better than I did. 11 Q: So my apologies to Officer 12 Pierzchalski, but I'm doing the best I can. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Exhibit 1574. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 17 Q: And Exhibit 1574 indicates that the 18 interview commenced at 12:00 and concluded at 15:05. Do 19 you see that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: But if you flip the page, do you see 22 that it says: 23 "12:17, called out to Pinery Park by 24 team leader to resume at a later time." 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Now either one of -- and then it 2 statement resumed at 13:44. Do you see that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Now either one of two (2) things 5 happened; either you scooted extraordinarily fast to do 6 your duties at Pinery Park and then returned to Forest to 7 give a statement, or, in fact, the remainder of the 8 statement's dated a subsequent day, I'm going to suggest 9 to you. 10 And if you flip to the handwritten version 11 of the statement that's attached, you'll see that the 12 statement's actually dated September 9th, 1995, the 13 continuation of the statement. 14 Could you take a look at that? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And see how the first date of the 19 handwritten portion by the interviewer is September 8th, 20 but if you flip to the second page, it's then September 21 9th, 1995? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: Sorry? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And would you agree with me that it's


1 as likely that what occurred here is that you resumed 2 giving your statement the next day, at 13:44? 3 A: I don't recall that, what happened. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: I recall being called away, but I 6 don't recall when I resumed it. 7 Q: All right. In terms of this package 8 that appears as Exhibit P-1574. First, may I ask, was 9 included with the typed statement in the exhibit, the 10 handwritten, if I may ask Ms. Vella? 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The answer is 13 "yes." 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 16 Q: So referring to P-1574 as a package, 17 could you please just have regard then to page 409. 18 There's these handwritten page numbers that are bolded 19 up, top right corner; do you see 409? 20 Yes? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you'll see it says: 23 "Statement resumed 13:44, 9 September 24 '95." 25 You do see that?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you see how the author got it 3 right the page before, 8 September '95. You see that? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: All right. So I've looked at your 6 notes and they don't give me any assistance on you giving 7 a statement on 8 of September or 9 of September, 1995. 8 You don't have that recorded in your 9 notes. Do you want to check and confirm that for me? 10 In other words, I tried to go backwards 11 and see if your notes tell me when you gave this 12 statement. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: No, sir, they don't. 17 Q: All right. Now, the duty that you 18 had -- and you see in the typed statement it refers to 19 it, the duty that you referred to is: 20 "Called out to Pinery Park by team 21 leader to resume at a later time." 22 Now, your team leader at that time would 23 have been who? 24 A: Sergeant Huntley. 25 Q: Sorry?


1 A: Sergeant Huntley. 2 Q: Sergeant Huntley? 3 A: Huntley, yes. 4 Q: Who would have been involved in the 5 CMU march the night before? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: I apologize, I shouldn't have said 8 the night before, it would have been two (2) nights 9 before. This was September 8th and it would have been 10 the night of September 6th, 1995 that the CMU march 11 happened? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Right. So Sergeant Huntley calls you 14 out to Pinery Park. And can we agree that others, not 15 just Huntley, might have also been at Pinery Park on 16 September 8th, 1995, that were also involved at CMU on 17 September 6th, 1995, yes? 18 A: They may have, yes. 19 Q: And you've already told Mr. Scullion, 20 so we don't have to sort of spend a lot of time on this 21 part, you've told Mr. Scullion you weren't under any 22 direction, as far as you can recall, not to discuss the 23 case with anybody, right? 24 A: I don't recall. 25 Q: Right. And -- well, when you say, "I


1 don't recall," the point is you don't recall such a 2 direction; yes? Am I right? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: Okay. And so if you met officers 5 when you went to do your duties at Pinery Park at 12:17 6 on September 8th, 1995, before you gave the statement 7 that appears at Tab 22, you may well have discussed the 8 case with them, yes? 9 A: I don't recall if I did or not, sir. 10 Q: Right. And so my question to you, 11 You may well have, is fair; you may? 12 A: I may and I may not have. 13 Q: That's right. 14 A: Worked both sides. 15 Q: That's right. And do you remember 16 how Mr. Rosenthal -- and this is the advantage of going 17 last, I don't spend time in areas other Counsel already 18 did -- so -- I'm seeking approval any way I can get it, 19 Mr. Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 23 Q: Mr. Rosenthal took you through the 24 Piers notes that kind of reflect, with the greatest of 25 respect, and I say this a little bit tongue-in-cheek,


1 that you're a bit of a chatty Kathy, you've told a lot of 2 people a lot of things about what you saw that night. 3 You told different officers sort of the 4 same things that you saw. So you did talk to people, 5 yes? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And so there's no real 8 reason we should doubt September 8th, 1995 as a time you 9 didn't talk, versus the 9th or the 10th, in and around 10 that time period it would have been at the forefront of 11 your mind, right? 12 A: Yes, sir. It impacted me severely, 13 yeah. 14 Q: Yes. And in impacting you severely, 15 you might have talked to your colleagues about it? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. So what we do know is that 18 when you give this statement at Tab 22, this would be a 19 statement that follows your access during duties to your 20 ERT teams, right? 21 A: I would have contact with them, yes. 22 Q: Yes. And the contact wouldn't have 23 been brief, it would have been a whole shift, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the whole -- the reason the


1 contact happens in the first place is Huntley calls you 2 to come and work, yes? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You are to stop giving your statement 5 involving a homicide and you are to go work with the 6 people that were involved, because we know at least 7 Huntley was involved, right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: By the way, there's a reference to 10 this being an SIU statement, but may I ask you, sir, is, 11 in fact, Mr. Pierzchalski an SIU investigator? 12 A: I think he's OPP, sir. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: We can -- we can clarify 14 that. We've determined, when that came out this morning, 15 that that's actually not an SIU, it's an OPP officer. 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Sorry. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: It was suggested -- it 18 was suggested this morning it was SIU. We've -- we've 19 confirmed that he's an OPP officer. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 22 Q: Thank you. All right. 23 So this was an OPP statement? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Thank you.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And in candidly sharing with Mr. 4 Commissioner that you may have had conversations with 5 colleagues who were involved in the same incident on 6 September 6th, 1995, that is on September 8th at the 7 Pinery, you'd also concede that they would have had 8 conversations with you if -- they would -- you didn't 9 know of an order to them that didn't apply to you. 10 You didn't know of that? 11 A: I -- I don't recall anything. 12 Q: Right. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And so -- and in your mind, you don't 15 recall any of your fellow officers, in front of you, or 16 to your knowledge, being ordered not to talk to you, do 17 you? 18 A: I'm not aware of anything. 19 Q: Right. So the conversations that are 20 reflected in the Piers notes about you having 21 communications with different officers, not only reflect 22 you talking to them but they also reflect them talking to 23 you, right? 24 A: Yes, we would have a conversation. 25 Q: Right. What they saw, what you saw,


1 et cetera? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then there might have been 4 commentary on whether you're a subject officer or a 5 witness officer; that might have been at the top of your 6 mind at that time, September 8th, 1995. It's pretty 7 early. 8 Q: I don't recall what the topics were 9 and to speculate I -- I don't know. I can't tell you 10 what the -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- topics were, sir, I'm sorry. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, there's nothing wrong with your 17 memory in terms of some kind of diagnosis about the 18 incidents. For example you've never been diagnosed with 19 Post Traumatic Stress Disorder have you? 20 A: I've never been checked, no, sir. 21 Q: And you -- and you've never been 22 diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Order have you? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. It was a deeply 25 disturbing, difficult incident; yes?


1 A: Yes, it's impacted me for -- from the 2 day it happened to now. 3 Q: As you would expect with most people 4 involved in a serious altercation like that, correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: There was nothing particularly 7 fragile about you relative to other officers? 8 A: I was impacted quite severely, sir. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: I can't comment on other people. 11 Q: All right. Now, the reason I asked 12 that is you don't have any difficulty do you remembering 13 testifying at the Deane trial? 14 Like, you do remember the act of 15 testifying? I'm not saying every word, but you remember 16 being on the stand don't you? 17 A: Yes, I do, sir. 18 Q: And you remember the Crown Attorney 19 asking you questions? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, you were a police officer at 22 that point for seventeen (17) years because it was 1997? 23 A: About that, yes, sir. 24 Q: I guess you're not that accustomed to 25 being cross-examined by a Crown Attorney?


1 A: That was my first time, sir. 2 Q: Right. Because usually you get 3 cross-examined by defence counsel? 4 A: That's correct, sir. 5 Q: It's a kind of a different dynamic 6 for a police officer to be rigorously cross-examined by a 7 Crown Attorney isn't it? 8 A: It felt very unique and weird, yes. 9 Q: Fair enough. And that's why I ask 10 because it's something you'd remember, right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now, the reason I ask that is if you 13 turn to Tab 28 which is the trial of April 9th, 1997, 14 you'll see that the cross-examination by Mr. Ian Scott 15 who was the Crown Attorney starts at page 183. Do you 16 see that? 17 If you turn to Tab 28 and then you just 18 flip to page 183 after Mr. Peel's examination-in-chief 19 you'll see that -- that unusual cross-examination starts 20 at page 183. Do you see that? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And it goes through to -- and this is 23 -- I'm of course referring to Exhibit -- I apologize, I 24 don't have the exhibit. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1576.


1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 3 Q: Thank you. It goes through to page 4 201, so it's eighteen (18) pages of cross-examination. 5 Do you see that? 6 A: Yes, I have it in front of me. 7 That'd be approximately 201, yes, sir. Yes. 8 Q: All right. And what's interesting or 9 -- or to me but I want to draw it to your attention, 10 during this memorable experience will you agree with me 11 if you look at 183 that right off the top of this cross- 12 examination that the first thing that Mr. Scott's asking 13 you about is the Molotov cocktail, yes? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And then that cross-examination goes 16 on right through to page 197 for fourteen (14) pages. Do 17 you see that? 18 Do you want to just satisfy yourself? And 19 you'll find it ends at line 13 page 197. It goes for 20 fourteen (14) pages. 21 Mr. Scott wants a detailed account from 22 you in several different ways of your sighting of this 23 Molotov cocktail, all right? 24 A: It seems to be, yes, sir. 25 Q: And you do remember that, don't you,


1 that he was very focussed on the Molotov cocktail, right? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And it was an uncomfortable 4 experience for you wasn't it? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: So you have a very clear memory that 7 there was a great focus on this Molotov cocktail 8 sighting? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And he was in essence alleging to you 11 at the time, in front of all those people watching this 12 trial, that you had fabricated seeing the Molotov 13 cocktail, correct? 14 A: That's what he was trying to do, yes, 15 sir. 16 Q: And you knew that at the time? 17 A: When he was doing it, yes. 18 Q: Yes. Now, when you get to 197 you'll 19 see there's only four (4) more pages. He spends time on 20 Cecil Bernard George and time on your gun sighting. 21 There's -- there's four (4) pages of that, 22 right? Do you see that? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: So fourteen (14) of the eighteen (18) 25 pages of this cross-examination, this experience was


1 about the Molotov cocktail, right? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: All right. And then if you flip to 4 Tab 31 the Judge's reasons at page 168 the judge simply 5 says -- remember I -- you -- I read this to you at Tab 6 31, the Judge simply says that your evidence is clearly 7 fabricated and implausible, right? 8 A: That's what he said, yes, sir. 9 Q: So, in your mind, I take it, when you 10 heard that and after the experience you had with the 11 Crown, you would have assumed or inferred from it that 12 your evidence about the Molotov cocktail was not 13 believed, would you -- would you agree with that? 14 A: Yeah, they didn't believe it. 15 Q: Yeah, that they didn't believe you 16 about the Molotov cocktail, correct? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Yeah. Now, the reason I ask you that 19 is, if you turn to Tab -- and now I -- I'm asking you to 20 direct your mind to Tab 32, which is Exhibit P-1053. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: These are the -- the records that 25 relate to the alleged investigation into Judge Fraser's


1 comments. Now, I'm going to ask, do you have what I 2 have? You should have a one (1) document that's a 3 complaint intake form that's two (2) pages. Do you have 4 that? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And then you should have a document 7 that's dated October 20th, 1997 that's four (4) pages in 8 length? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: This'll be fast. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Is that right? 17 A: Yes, sir. Yes, sir, I do. 18 Q: You do. And then you -- finally you 19 have a document that's two (2) pages in length that is -- 20 is entitled, General Administration IA number. 21 Do you have that? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: All right. So that's the package of 24 materials that were provided pursuant to the Motion by -- 25 by Counsel for the Aboriginal interests in relation to --


1 to your records. 2 Now, what I want to ask you is this: You 3 told Ms. Vella that you did not get any kind of formal 4 notice of the complaint, right? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: But there must have been a method of 7 communicate -- do -- do you -- have you had a lot of 8 complaints about being a perjurer? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. So this would have been 11 reasonably memorable for you? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: All right. You would have been 14 contacted by someone from the OPP who said, We're looking 15 into this. The management or brass are looking into the 16 comment by Judge Fraser that you fabricated your 17 evidence. 18 A: I received notice. I never received 19 this. I -- 20 Q: Right. 21 A: -- probably could have been a phone 22 call or something similar to that. 23 Q: But -- but that would not be sort of 24 a minor event in the life of Chris Cossitt, right? 25 That would be -- that would be


1 significant? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: Okay. So can you please assist the 4 Court with -- or the Commission, with respect to what 5 communication gave you that first inkling that you were - 6 - that channels were being invoked in respect of your 7 conduct? 8 Like, you must remember how that came to 9 your attention? 10 A: How I was being investigate -- 11 investigated through this complaint? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: I believe it was a phone call. I'm 14 not a 100 percent on it, but I -- 15 Q: Fair enough. 16 A: -- believe it was a phone call. 17 Q: We don't need a 100 percent. We 18 simply need your recollection. If you have no memory, 19 you tell Mr. Commissioner that but -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- if your memory is generally that 22 you got a phone call, that's what your memory was. 23 A: I believe it was a phone call. 24 Q: Right. And you'd remember that 25 feeling when you got the call?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: It would have been a bad feeling? 3 A: Yes, I wouldn't be happy, sir. 4 Q: You would be worried that you were in 5 professional trouble? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: You'd be worried you might even be 8 criminally charged? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Because you knew that the allegation 11 was you fabricated evidence under Oath. 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: So that you knew one of your 14 jeopardies, following Judge Fraser's finding, because you 15 knew the gist of his finding, was a criminal charge and a 16 very public trial? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: So this development is something 19 you'd remember? 20 A: I remember the -- the complaint, yes. 21 Q: Yes. All right. And so the phone 22 call, who did it come from? 23 A: I don't recall. 24 Q: Well, what's his first name? 25 A: I don't recall.


1 Q: Following the phone call did you 2 retain Counsel? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I -- I don't believe I did. 7 Q: Were you assured in the phone call 8 that it would be taken care of, you'd be fine? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: So it's your evidence that you were 11 called, told you're being investigated and you knew it 12 could potentially lead criminal charges, and you didn't 13 bother to retain Counsel? 14 A: I was waiting for some official 15 documents to arrive first. I had retained Harry Black 16 prior to this. I was going to -- if I require a lawyer, 17 that's who I would use again. 18 Q: Okay. But that was in relation to an 19 unrelated matter, unrelated to Ipperwash, yes? 20 A: That was regarding Ipperwash, sir. 21 Q: You'd retained Harry Black to act for 22 you in respect to Ipperwash? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: At what point did you retain Mr. 25 Black, without getting into any matters of privileges, I


1 just want to know timing? 2 A: I don't recall what timing it was, it 3 was regarding -- I went from a witness officer to a 4 subject officer back to a witness officer. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: At which time I went from a subject 7 officer, I retained Mr. Black. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And then I went back to a witness 10 officer -- 11 Q: But it had nothing to do with your 12 testimony to Judge Fraser? 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: Okay. That's -- that's all I was 15 interested in. Now, the -- the issue that I'm trying to 16 understand better is what involvement you had in this 17 process, because we've agreed that the process was 18 significant to you but you've been pretty hazy. 19 So I'm just trying to flush out from you 20 anything I can get to trigger your memory about your 21 involvement because we don't know a lot. All right? 22 So, first of all, you don't remember the 23 contents of the phone call, or do you? 24 A: No, I don't. It was -- 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: -- just a general advisory, This 2 investigation is going on. 3 Q: Okay. And then, secondly, after the 4 general advisory, what do you remember next about your 5 involvement with this investigation? 6 A: I remember that I was waiting for 7 official paperwork to come through, and I don't remember 8 the timeframe that it was going on, and that I waited. 9 Q: Now, when you say you were waiting 10 for official paperwork to come through, would you agree 11 with me that your understanding of the process was that 12 anytime a complaint is commenced, the subject, that is 13 the target of the complaint, gets some form of formal 14 notice? 15 A: Yes. I was made aware of it, yes. 16 Q: Right. And that's been your 17 knowledge for fifteen (15) years, right? 18 A: Generally you get one, yes. 19 Q: Well, you said "generally." Have you 20 ever had a complaint initiated against you where you 21 haven't gotten notice? 22 A: I haven't had many complaints, sir. 23 Q: Okay. But of the complaints you've 24 had against you, have you ever had one initiated where 25 you didn't get formal notice?


1 A: No, sir. 2 Q: No. And would you agree with me that 3 it's only fair that if somebody is going to lay a formal 4 complaint against you, that you get notice? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 6 to go too far into this area, Mr. Falconer. You've gone 7 into it, fair detail of it. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I've just 9 started, what I did was I was working on other areas, 10 closing off other avenues, I have just started on the 11 record's issue. I've just started on it. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 13 not sure how much more we're going to allow -- 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- this type 16 of examination. This isn't a review of the complaint 17 process. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Some 20 information regarding the complaint and the manner in 21 which it was dealt with and the disposition of it is 22 relevant to my investigation. 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But this in 25 not an inquiry into the OPP's investigation process, in


1 general. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I'm just 4 wondering, as I said -- 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's fine. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- some 7 distance is quite relevant, helpful and legitimate. But 8 too much of this is just another area completely. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One that I 11 know that you're familiar with and you know that I'm 12 familiar with. So I just don't want to go too far into 13 it. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And -- and my 15 intention, so you know, Mr. Commissioner, was not to go 16 into the systemic realities of the structure of the 17 complaint system, but my intention is to go into what was 18 done in this case. That is -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- completely 21 different. I -- I want to know what was done with this 22 officer and that's why I asked him the question, does he 23 consider it a fair part of a complaint process that he be 24 given formal notice, that -- so he knows what they're 25 investigating --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There -- 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- so he gets a 3 chance to go in and say, This is my side of it. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just want 5 to remind you that this is not an investigation into the 6 complaint procedures -- 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- of the 9 OPP. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 12 Q: Fair enough. 13 Did you hear my question, Officer? 14 A: Could you repeat it, please. 15 Q: Would you -- would you agree with me 16 that it's a fair part of the complaint process that you 17 get notice of the -- formal notice of the complaint 18 against you? 19 A: To be notified of it, yes. 20 Q: Yes. And you see how there is a 21 complaint intake form, yes? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And you see how the name's been 24 blacked out as to who the complainant is? 25 A: Yes, sir.


1 Q: So there's a complainant who filled 2 out a complaint intake form, we don't know you it is; and 3 do you? 4 A: No, sir. 5 Q: To this day? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: You don't know who the complainant is 8 against you on the issue of whether or not you fabricated 9 evidence, correct? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Now, going to the second document, 12 because the first document has a date on it of -- I 13 recall seeing a date -- it appears -- 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Date received April 15 28th, '97. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 18 Q: Thank you. Ms. Vella has assisted 19 me. It appears -- it says: 20 "Date received April 28th, 1997." 21 I'm just blind and haven't found the spot 22 where it says it yet. Oh, there it is. Halfway -- I saw 23 the "Reported in person" and then it says "Date 24 received." 25 Do you see that first page of the


1 Complaint Intake Form? If you go halfway down the first 2 page of the Complaint Intake Form you see, "Reported" or 3 "How Reported." It says, "In Person." Then it says, 4 "Date Received 28 April, '97. 5 Do you see that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Now, that's the complaint. 8 Then the response by apparently an investigator, and 9 you'll see the signing line says, "Professional Standards 10 Western Region," at page 4. 11 The response is to be found in a four (4) 12 page document dated October 20th, 1997. Do you see that? 13 There a four (4) page document that 14 follows the Complaint Intake Form and it's dated October 15 20th, 1997 and on page 4 you'll see a signing line that 16 refers to the Professional Standards Western Region. Do 17 you see that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. So do you know who was 20 investigating your complaint? 21 A: No, sir. 22 Q: Neither do I. Would you like to 23 know -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- who was


1 investigating the complaint against you? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 3 that's a good question to ask this Witness. 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. I'll 5 move on. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I'm not 7 sure that I need to know. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I don't 10 think we need to proceed with that. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- with respect, 12 I'm positive you need to know, but -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I'm not 14 sure about that. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- people haven't 16 agreed with me yet, so. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's carry 18 on. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 21 Q: October 20th, 1997, Professional 22 Standards writes -- from the Western Region, writes 23 somebody at Professional Standards in Orillia re. 24 Provincial Constable Cossitt. Do you see that? 25 A: Yes, sir.


1 Q: Now, have you ever read this 2 document? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: So this would be a four (4) page 5 report on your conduct you've never seen, right? 6 A: Just prior to -- through my counsel 7 here, yes. 8 Q: All right. So you're saying you did 9 read this document prior to testifying? 10 A: I didn't read it, I -- they asked me 11 if I seen this, and I said no. 12 Q: All right. So I'm right, sitting 13 here today, May 24th, 2006, you have never read the four 14 (4) page report on your conduct? 15 A: That's right, sir. 16 Q: You do take it seriously, don't you, 17 that Judge Fraser said you fabricated you evidence? You 18 take that seriously, don't you? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Now, in the four (4) page -- and you 21 did get access to this document once it had been shown to 22 you by your counsel? You had access, yes? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: You could have read it? You could 25 have said, I -- I want to take time to read it, right?


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Okay. Now, in this four (4) page 3 document, what I want to ask you about, and I want to 4 refresh your memory because you've said that you had a 5 communication about the existence of the investigation. 6 I take it there would have been a 7 subsequent communication, at minimum, telling you that 8 the investigation had been wrapped up, correct? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And do you recall -- that would have 11 been the good news, right? You don't remember much about 12 the bad news, right? You don't remember who told you the 13 bad news, right? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And you don't remember the contents 16 of the conversation, right? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: It must have been a great relief to 19 you to get the good news? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 21 THE WITNESS: I don't remember who 22 called. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 25 Q: Or the contents of that conversation?


1 A: Just I was -- what the results was. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again, Mr. 3 Falconer, I'm not sure -- 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, Mr. 5 Commissioner -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- how much 7 of this is relevant or helpful to my Inquiry, to this 8 Inquiry -- 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: May I address you 10 on that, Mr. Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- given 12 what I've been asked to do. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: May I address you 14 on that? 15 During the course of argument over the 16 editing of what my client took the position before you 17 and maintains it, the unfair editing of these records, 18 during the course of that we were assured, my client was 19 assured, that we'd get a full right of cross-examination 20 on the issue -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- with the 23 Witnesses, that we wouldn't get the names from the 24 records, but we'd be entitled to fully examine. 25 Now, all I've reached is the stage where


1 he's getting the news that he is being given a -- a clean 2 bill of health and I'm not even -- I'm -- that's too 3 much. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can 5 cross-examine so long as it's relevant and helpful -- 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: But I'm trying -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to my 8 investigation. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I understand, but 10 it is relevant and helpful and I'm trying to show you 11 why. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 13 that at the moment. I don't see that at the moment. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With all due respect, 15 as I recollect the testimony of this Witness about three 16 (3) minutes ago was that he's never seen the document -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- upon which Mr. 19 Falconer seeks to cross-examine him to allegedly refresh 20 his memory. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About a 22 document that he hasn't seen -- 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That he's never seen 24 and -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and


1 hasn't read. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- and he's advised 3 that he wasn't -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- advised as to the 6 process of the investigation, just the results. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As I said -- 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, this would 9 not be the first time any counsel, including Ms. Vella, 10 has examined a witness to determine if portions of a 11 document might refresh their memory. 12 The Witness neither need see the document 13 before or need have created the document, it's the 14 information in the document, whether it ever came to his 15 attention. 16 Now, he had communications with the 17 investigators. I want to find out whether some of the 18 statements by the investigators were passed on to him, 19 and I want to see if he recalls, as a result of my 20 bringing them to his attention. It won't be long, it'll 21 be less than five (5) minutes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Less than 23 five (5) minutes -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I can


1 handle. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 6 Q: Now, in terms of this document, if 7 you look at page 1, all right? Do you see where it 8 refers to the fact of a number of issues? It says, Item 9 1, Item 2. 10 Do you see that? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: All right. Item 1, right, simply 13 quotes the finding by the judge; do you see that? Item 14 1: 15 "A list of relevant issues criticized 16 by the trial judge." 17 Right? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: "His Honourable Judge Fraser said the 20 following..." 21 I'm just trying to give you the context 22 because you've never seen the document before. I -- I 23 want to be fair to you. All right. 24 You see how it simply creates the quote 25 that I read to you before?


1 A: That's correct, sir. 2 Q: Okay. Thank you. And that simply 3 tells you what they're looking at, the very thing we've 4 been talking about -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- all right? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Now, what I want to ask you about is, 9 at any time when the investigator spoke to you on the 10 phone, because you'll see Item 2: 11 "Determine whether [blank] is willing 12 to release information he has regarding 13 the relevant issues. Approach 14 [blank]." 15 And then he replies: 16 "On September 18th, in conversation 17 with [blank] he indicated in possession 18 of certain evidence to corroborate 19 Cossitt's testimony." 20 At any time did you -- do you recall being 21 advised by the investigators that they were approaching 22 Norman Peel to get corroboration of your evidence; do you 23 remember anything like that? 24 A: No, sir. 25 Q: Thank you. Now, the other thing I


1 want to ask you about is, if you flip to the next page, 2 you see there's a reference, third paragraph: 3 "During my meeting with [blank] a 4 solution was formulated which would 5 meet the requirements of limitations 6 under the Police Services Act and the 7 need for [blank], a waiver of 8 limitation was discussed and seemed 9 appropriate." 10 Do you see that? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Now, at any time did anyone discuss 13 with you, or does it refresh your memory that a waiver 14 was obtained in order to get information from Norman Peel 15 or any other lawyer involved in the defence of Ken Deane? 16 A: I don't recall that, sir. 17 Q: Thank you. Now, moving along, under 18 Item 3 it says: 19 "Obtain a copy of a notice of appeal 20 regarding Ken Deane." 21 You see that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: "Whatever you can find that lists the 24 issues that will be addressed at 25 appeal."


1 I take that to be appeal of Ken Deane. 2 But what I want to ask you, is it said: 3 "Cossitt understood that a SIU 4 investigation was pending in relation 5 to statements." 6 Does that refresh your memory as to what 7 you understood, or that you told someone? 8 A: No, sir, it doesn't. 9 Q: All right. Now, it -- next it says: 10 "Pretrial agreements were formed, not 11 at issue were muzzle flashes from First 12 Nations persons." 13 Does that refresh your memory as to what 14 you might have told an investigator? I -- I said 15 "might," I don't say that it says you did. I want to 16 know might you have told that -- 17 A: No, it doesn't, sir. 18 Q: Thank you. Now, the next thing I 19 want to ask you about is that it says in the last dash 20 under this reply: 21 "Members of TRU team and OPP officers 22 will corroborate the muzzle flashes 23 seen by Cossitt." 24 Do you see that? 25 A: Yes, sir.


1 Q: All right. Now, the following page 2 it says: 3 "Estimate length of time to conduct an 4 investigation from scratch." 5 And you see the top of page 3 refers to: 6 "A conservative estimate to thoroughly 7 examine the issues is eight (8) to ten 8 (10) months." 9 Does that refresh your memory as to what 10 you were told it would take for a discipline 11 investigation to happen, eight (8) to ten (10) months? 12 Were you told that that would be the case? 13 A: No, sir, I wasn't. 14 Q: All right. Now, I want to know 15 something. This professional standards investigator then 16 goes on to say: 17 "In effort to assist your assessment of 18 the trial judge's comments in Item 19 number 1, I..." 20 Do you see that? 21 "I offer the following information." 22 Do you see that? This is at page 3, top 23 of the page, underneath the quote. 24 "In effort to assist your assessment of 25 the trial Judge's comments in Item


1 number 1, I offer the following 2 information." 3 Do you see that? See, if you go to the 4 top of page 3 there's quote. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then right under it says: 9 "In effort." 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: Okay. Good. 12 "In effort to assist your assessment." 13 So the investigator is offering the 14 following information; do you see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And this is what I want. I 17 want to ask you if any of these items came up in your 18 conversations. It says: 19 "In Sarnia court Monday, September 20 30th, David George and Warren George 21 were on trial for events at Ipperwash. 22 During testimony Wade Lacroix, leader 23 of CMU, stated he saw three (3) muzzle 24 flashes, and rearview mirror area of 25 the car, the vehicle striking officers.


1 Lacroix fired two (2) rounds on the 2 driver's side." 3 So was that discussed with the 4 investigator, to your memory? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. And the second paragraph 7 refers to the fact that a Constable McGrath testified 8 that he saw, or was attacked by David George with a 9 baseball bat. 10 Would that be something you discussed with 11 the investigator? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: All right. And then finally it says, 14 and this is the last one: 15 "Staff Sergeant Lacroix, in cross- 16 examination, was challenged by Defence. 17 Jeffrey House asked Lacroix why his 18 testimony doesn't match his notes or 19 what he told the special investigations 20 unit. Staff Sergeant Lacroix said he 21 suffered post-traumatic stress which 22 may cause one to forget such details." 23 Do you see that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, then it quotes some law from


1 this professional standards gentleman on -- on Law of 2 Perjury. And then it says, the last two (2) paragraphs 3 of the page, it says: 4 "I believe the evidence of Staff 5 Sergeant Lacroix corroborates that of 6 Cossitt at the Deane trial. Further, 7 the issue of post-traumatic stress is a 8 factor in determination of previous 9 inconsistent statement by police 10 officers of the incident as stated by 11 Staff Sergeant Lacroix." 12 Now, you recall advising me that you were 13 never diagnosed with post-traumatic stress, correct? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And do you recall if the investigator 16 asked you whether you suffered from post-traumatic stress 17 disorder? 18 A: I don't recall that. 19 Q: All right. And then the paragraph 20 right above it, you see where it says: 21 "I believe the evidence of Staff 22 Sergeant Lacroix corroborates that of 23 Cossitt at the Deane trial." 24 Do you see that? 25 A: Yes, sir.


1 Q: Now, you have heard and had various 2 accounts put to you by many different lawyers, right? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Have you ever heard a single account 5 by any lawyer for you or again you sir, that ever finds 6 or gives you an example of another officer witnessing 7 that Molotov cocktail, ever? 8 A: No. No, sir, I -- 9 Q: Do you know of any other officer who 10 claims to have seen a Molotov cocktail flung at them on 11 the night of September 6th, 1995? 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well -- 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: What? There's 14 nothing wrong with that question -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There may be 16 something that she needs to offer. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: There is something 18 wrong -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She's got 20 to -- 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- with that question. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She's got -- 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sure My Friend was 24 paying careful attention to the cross-examination at 25 which the statements of various officers who indicate


1 that they saw Molotov cocktails that evening, was put to 2 this Witness. The statement of Mr. Piers. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 5 Q: Have you been given or shown any -- 6 it's the same question, I'll just ask it again. My 7 Friend can look at the transcripts. 8 Have you been shown any evidence under 9 Oath by a police officer and, in particular, Wade Lacroix 10 who's referred to in this report, that corroborates your 11 explanation about Molotov cocktails? 12 A: I never seen the Staff Sergeant's 13 statement, sir. 14 Q: All right. The investigator that 15 dealt with this matter seems to feel that Lacroix or 16 Magrath or the evidence from Lacroix at the George 17 trials, somehow corroborates your account at the Fraser 18 hearing, right? 19 That seems to be the point of the 20 investigator would you agree? 21 A: Reading the -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 23 how much more of this we can pursue. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure


1 how much more helpful -- 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough, fair 3 enough. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- this is. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I -- I -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- can close it 8 out. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 12 Q: Do you recall at any time telling the 13 investigator that your account about the Molotov cocktail 14 that you were cross-examined at length about by Mr. 15 Scott, was corroborated by another officer? 16 Do you remember ever telling the 17 investigator that? 18 A: No, sir. 19 Q: Okay. Would you agree with this. 20 For a person who had no role, no participation in the 21 investigation, it was resolved very favourably for you, 22 wasn't it? Yes? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. He 24 didn't know anything about it, so -- 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, he's now seen


1 the documents. I'm asking -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, yes. 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- him, it was 4 resolved very favourably. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 6 if -- 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'll move on. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that's a-- 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'll move on. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not a 11 necessary question to ask. Yes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 16 Q: You made mention in evidence to Ms. 17 Vella that you saw a lot of foam in the bottle. The 18 words you used were a lot of foam. 19 Do you remember telling that to Ms. Vella? 20 A: I remember seeing foam in it, yes, 21 sir. 22 Q: I wrote down a lot of foam. Did I 23 get it wrong? 24 A: The bottle had foam in it. There's a 25 little bit of liquid and I seen -- there was more foam


1 than liquid. 2 Q: Fair enough. The reason I ask you 3 that, I don't want to get overly detailish, but the 4 reason I ask you that is if you have regard to your 5 evidence at the Deane trial -- if you could turn to Tab 6 28. 7 And if you have regard, please, to page 8 183. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Do you see that? It should say 13 cross-examination by Mr. Scott. You have that? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: See, I just want to go back to the 16 Molotov cocktail and he -- question at line 17: 17 "And it was a clear bottle? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: With liquid in it? 20 Yes, sir. I would say approximately a 21 quarter of an inch to an inch of liquid 22 inside it. 23 And a wick? 24 Yes, sir." 25 Et cetera. You don't mention foam there,


1 right? 2 A: No. It was an oversight on my part. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: It might have been an oversight on my 5 part. There was foam there. 6 Q: Fair enough. And then when you go to 7 your examination-in-chief at page 174 to 175, you don't 8 mention the foam there, either, do you? 9 A: I -- 10 Q: 174 to 175. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: See, reference to liquid? Nothing 15 about the foam. 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: Did the foam just come to you 18 recently -- 19 A: No, sir. 20 Q: -- that it was in the bottle? If I 21 may understand precisely what your evidence is that -- as 22 to the position you were in when you were by the vehicle, 23 and this is not to repeat anything covered, you had your 24 shield with you and you had your shield up. I saw that 25 numerous times in the evidence I can take you to in past


1 proceedings. 2 Is that fair? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And you -- and you testified in 5 previous proceedings, again I'll be happy to take you to 6 it, that you had your shield in your left hand and you 7 had your baton in your right, fair? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I take it that the passage of 10 time, that is the lapse of time, between the time that 11 the bus sort of departs the scene and the time the car 12 enters the scene is split seconds, true? 13 A: I'm sorry, could you repeat that 14 again? 15 Q: The lapse of time, that is the -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- amount of time that goes by 18 between the time the bus leaves the scene and the car 19 enters the scene is split seconds, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And you recall, and you 22 testified to this, that there was actually -- it hit 23 dust, that is the bus hit dust and took off, right? 24 A: The dust was there, I'm not sure -- 25 Q: Right.


1 A: It was there. Out behind the bus -- 2 Q: Sorry? 3 A: It was there, yes. 4 Q: And it was behind the bus? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: It was in the wake of the bus? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the car moved in? 9 A: It came from behind the cloud, yes. 10 Q: Fair enough. And what I want to 11 understand is, essentially you maintained your position. 12 You moved around a little bit from one (1) side to the 13 other side, and the middle of the road, but you 14 maintained your position as the car came towards you from 15 where the bus left you. That's -- I just want to 16 understand that. Didn't you? 17 A: I was moving to the north, to the 18 lake side to get out of the way of the bus. It was -- I 19 just -- it was just a continuous fluid motion. I just 20 kind of kept moving and the car veered into the right. 21 It was -- nothing stopped, there was no hesitation, it 22 was just continuous. 23 Q: Would you agree with me though that 24 in terms of the distance in feet you would have travelled 25 by the time the -- the car comes to your attention and


1 the bus has just left your attention is just a few feet, 2 right? 3 A: Yeah. I -- I estimated three (3) to 4 four (4). I was running... 5 Q: Fair enough. And at the time that 6 the car approaches you see these high beams in your 7 face? 8 A: I see four (4) rectangular lights. 9 Q: And then the car veers and it ends up 10 in a situation where it has engaged your fellow officers, 11 right? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And in engaging your fellow officers 14 you approach the vehicle in order to strike the driver 15 with your ASP while your shield's in your hand? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, at this time I -- I just want to 18 understand, as you approach the vehicle you get to what 19 you call the 'A' frame of the windshield? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You're within a foot of it? 22 A: I was up against it. 23 Q: All right. But right at the time you 24 get to it, that's the time I'm interested in, at that 25 very point you get to it about how much time elapses


1 between that point when you just get to it and the 2 discharge of the firearm in the vehicle that you say 3 happened? 4 Are we talking again split seconds? 5 A: Yes, seconds. 6 Q: Seconds? 7 A: Seconds. 8 Q: Certainly not minutes? 9 A: No. Oh, no, no, it was all 10 continuous happening at -- almost simultaneously 11 everything was happening. 12 Q: Fair enough. So your shield is up 13 and I take it your -- your ASP is back and your visor's 14 down, right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, I want to understand a little 17 bit about the equipment you were wearing because I know 18 it's not fire retardant equipment, right, because they 19 hadn't got it yet? 20 A: No, I don't think they did. 21 Q: Right. But it's meant to be 22 protective equipment. You're almost like a baseball 23 catcher, you're all set up with elbow pads and -- and a 24 chest protector, in fact a bullet -- you've got a bullet- 25 proof vest on; don't you?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: A Kevlar vest? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You've got a Kevlar vest. You've got 5 a helmet. You've got elbow pads. You've got -- do you - 6 - do you have some kind of shin protection? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Okay. So you have shin guards on. 9 And you've got heavy gloves? 10 A: I have gloves on. 11 Q: All right. And -- and basically the 12 idea is to cover your body, right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And so while gunfire is not something 15 you were built to be protected against, projectiles and 16 objects you're protected against, right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: The idea is there should be no 19 exposed skin, right? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And you didn't -- you weren't an 22 exception to that, you were on the CMU Unit for Peel 23 Service, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So you -- you knew how to wear the


1 equipment? 2 A: We had different equipment there but 3 this was a newer version of it. 4 Q: And your skin was covered? 5 A: Peel CMU, no, it wasn't the same 6 equipment. 7 Q: No, but here, in this case? 8 A: Yeah, here it was, yes. 9 Q: Your skin was covered? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: You had a visor down and you had a 12 shield up? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: What's the -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 16 already said that, Mr -- 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm getting -- I'll 18 move on. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 22 Q: The size of the shield please? 23 A: It's approximately -- 24 Q: Excuse me. 25 I understand that if you want to help that


1 if you could let the Witness testify. 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, the Witness is 3 going to -- 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The fact that 5 something is repetitive does not derogate from my right 6 to move on to another area. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 8 fine. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It is a bridge. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. That's 11 fine. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And if My Friends 13 want to rise to object, fair enough, but I don't want -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, he's 15 not -- 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- whispered 17 answered. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I haven't 19 heard any objection. Just carry on. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I realize 22 you can use it as a bridge but -- 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- carry on. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 2 Q: The size of the shield? 3 A: I would estimate it -- I've never 4 measured it but it's approximately 24 inches wide and 5 between 3 and 4 feet tall. 6 Q: Now, when you get to that car the 7 last thing you're going to do is drop the shield; agreed? 8 I mean, you're in fear, correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then the gun pops out while your 11 ASP is in the air, right? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And you're not dropping the shield 14 then, am I agree with -- are we agreed on that? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: Right. And then it discharges? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now, not once in any evidence that 19 I've looked or statement that I've seen did you ever make 20 reference to feeling the heat of the discharged weapon. 21 So I just want to understand. 22 First of all, where did you feel the heat 23 on your body? Was it on your face? 24 A: Yeah. It was -- came up -- I could 25 feel it around my face area.


1 Q: Your face? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: The one behind the visor behind the 4 shield? That one? 5 A: Yes. And it's all open underneath my 6 neck, yes. 7 Q: Right. So that the heat made its way 8 around the shield and then got under the visor, and you 9 felt it? 10 A: As -- as you're showing me, standing 11 there, face first, sir -- 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: -- I wasn't standing face first. I 14 had the shield on my left arm at the 'A' frame like this. 15 I -- and it was on my left shoulder, and my right, it was 16 all open in front of me. The shield wasn't this way 17 straight on. I was with it to the side. 18 Q: Oh. You weren't using the shield -- 19 A: I was -- 20 Q: -- to protect you? 21 A: I was using it to protect me up this 22 way and I was standing at the shield this way. 23 Q: What part -- 24 A: You're -- 25 Q: -- what part -- you said that the --


1 that the heat got under, did it get under the shield? 2 A: The shield of my visor, sir. 3 Q: All right. So the heat got under the 4 shield of your visor. Is there any reason that this is 5 the first time you're raising this heat sensation? 6 I mean, looking back at your previous 7 accounts, I can't find any time where you talk about it. 8 Is there any reason you can account for that? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: But you have a very clear memory of 11 feeling that heat, do you? 12 A: I can recall it, yes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 14 be a good time to take a break, Mr. Falconer? 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I may have -- can I 16 just -- a brief indulgence. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes, this is fine. 22 Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 24 an afternoon break. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess


1 for fifteen (15) minutes. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 3:44 p.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 4:00 p.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Sorry, I'm just 12 going to catch up my notes, Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 18 Q: If you could turn, Officer Cossitt, 19 to Tab 25, it's pages -- specifically if you could direct 20 your attention please to page 15. It's your statement to 21 the SIU of December 7th, 1995. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Now, you told Mr. Scullion a little 2 while ago that you simply could not identify the 3 occupants in the vehicle and, if you look at page 15 of 4 your statement to SIU of December 7th, Wilson asks you a 5 question. 6 "Okay, would you be able to identify 7 this individual or can you? Can you 8 describe him to me at all?" 9 You say: 10 "No, sir." 11 Wilson: 12 "The driver of the car? 13 I can't. I've racked myself trying to 14 go back through it, trying to. I 15 can't. I disresponded to it. I was 16 higher then, the car was dark, I was 17 high like about the window when I was 18 going to strike." 19 Wilson says, "Yeah." 20 COSSITT: I couldn't see anybody. It 21 was dark. I could see that there was a 22 driver in the vehicle. I could only 23 see one (1) person, a silhouette [and 24 then it says] a back silhouette, and 25 that's all I could see."


1 Is it fair that that might be a typo and 2 that's a black silhouette, is that fair? 3 A: I would surmise that, sir, yes. 4 Q: Okay. And is your recollection that 5 all you could see was a black silhouette? 6 A: I could see black inside the car, 7 yes. 8 Q: All right. And then -- well, no, but 9 a black silhouette? That's what you told them. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then it says: 12 "WILSON: Okay. 13 COSSITT: I have nothing further. 14 WILSON: For hair? 15 COSSITT: I'm -- 16 WILSON: Features? 17 COSSITT: No, I'm sorry, I can't." 18 So I take it that's, to some extent, 19 consistent with what you told Mr. Scullion? You simply 20 couldn't identify anybody by feature or appearance in the 21 car, correct? 22 A: I couldn't identify anybody, no. 23 Q: And part of it was because you were 24 standing higher than the car, right? 25 A: Part of it.


1 Q: That's what you say here. 2 A: Part of it. 3 Q: Sorry? 4 A: Part of it. 5 Q: Yes. And part of it was it was 6 because it was dark inside the car? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And I take it another part of it 9 would be you were looking through a shield, your shield, 10 and a visor; correct? 11 A: No, I wasn't looking through my 12 shield, sir. 13 Q: You were looking through your visor? 14 A: Through my visor, yes. Oh, that 15 shield, yes. 16 Q: And it was a taint -- a tint -- a 17 tainted visor, is that -- or a tinted visor, I apologise. 18 It was a tinted visor, is that fair? 19 A: On my Crowd Management -- 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: -- helmet? No, they're clear. 22 Q: All right. And would you agree that 23 all of those things, whether it's your visor or the 24 darkness or the position, all of those things contributed 25 to a situation where you simply couldn't identify the


1 features in any way of the person in the car, right? 2 A: I couldn't identify anybody in the 3 car, no, sir. 4 Q: And it's fair to say -- and when I 5 saw identify, I don't mean by name, I mean by 6 description. 7 A: That -- that's the way I took it, 8 sir, yes. 9 Q: All right. And it's fair to say that 10 you knew at the time that this was basically a person 11 that you were accusing of attempt murder, right? 12 A: Shooting at me, yes, attempt murder, 13 yes. 14 Q: All right. And you knew that, you've 15 been an officer for fifteen (15) years. You knew that 16 that's what the allegation was? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Sir? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And so their description would be 21 fundamentally important if you could offer such a 22 description truthfully, right? 23 A: Yes. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: Could you explain to Mr. Commissioner 2 how it could be that whereas on December 7th, 1995, like 3 today, you claimed not to be able to identify the 4 features or description of the person in the vehicle, on 5 September 9th, 1995 when you talked to the OPP officer at 6 Tab 22 -- look at your statement, Tab 22. 7 A: 22. 8 Q: Page 4. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's Exhibit P-1574. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. Exhibit 11 P-1574. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 4? 13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, on which page, 14 sir? 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 17 Q: I'm sorry, page 6. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 6. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 23 Q: Could you explain to the Commissioner 24 how it is on September 9th, 1995 you were able to 25 describe the driver of the vehicle as:


1 "a male Native, that is the best I can 2 describe him." 3 Do you see that? Two-thirds (2/3's) of 4 the way down the page. 5 "I wanted to strike the driver who was 6 a male Native. That is the best I can 7 describe him." 8 Do you see that? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Now, on December 7, 1995 and when 11 you're here today, you can't assist us with any features 12 whatsoever, correct? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: But on September 9th, 1995 you can 15 identify the gender of the driver, right? He's male. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You can identify the cultural 18 background of the driver, he's Native? 19 A: That's what I mention here, yes, sir. 20 Q: And you can tell him that that's the 21 best description you can offer? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Would you agree with me that the 24 truth is much easier to remember than falsities; do you 25 agree with that proposition?


1 A: I'm sorry? 2 Q: Do you agree that it is easier to 3 remember the truth than falsities; do you agree with 4 that, when you're -- 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Sorry? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Right. And it appears that you 9 forgot that you could identify the driver, right? It 10 appears so, doesn't it? 11 A: It may. I -- I don't call that 12 identifying anybody. 13 Q: A male Native, right? 14 A: That's the description I have there. 15 Whether or not it's identifying him, no. 16 Q: Oh. All right. So when you said 17 "male Native" at page 6 of the -- of the OPP statement on 18 September 9th, 1995, you didn't mean to offer a 19 description that the person that was driving, that you 20 were accusing of attempt murder, was both a male and a 21 Native; you didn't intend to do that? 22 A: I made that statement, sir, and I -- 23 that's the best I can give you. I -- I don't really have 24 an answer why I said that from back then. 25 Q: You've investigated numerous criminal


1 matters in your -- what would now be, I take it, twenty- 2 five (25) years of police experience, you've investigated 3 numerous criminal matters? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And you know, in interviewing a 6 witness, that if the Witness gives fairly consistent 7 accounts of what they saw, that makes them more reliable 8 than a person who gives diametrically opposed accounts; 9 would you agree with that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Would you agree with me that, on the 12 one hand, identifying a person by gender and culture as a 13 description, in contrast to saying you could not even 14 make out their face, hair or anything else, they were 15 simply a silhouette, stands as a stark contrast? 16 A: It was a very brief description. 17 Q: But you don't talk about brief 18 descriptions at Tab 25, do you? You don't talk about 19 brief descriptions. You say you can't offer anything 20 other than a black silhouette; isn't that right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And when Mr. Scullion asked you, you 23 say that you can't even identify the person as a driver, 24 you just assumed somebody was driving -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just calm


1 down and don't shout. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just calm 4 down. That's fine. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Sorry, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 10 Q: Today you tell Mr. Scullion you can't 11 even identify someone driving, right? 12 A: The car had to get there somehow. 13 Someone had to press the gas pedal, they had to steer it, 14 had to manoeuvre the vehicle, somebody was driving it. I 15 concluded that somebody had to drive it. 16 Q: Fair enough. And that's what you 17 told Mr. Scullion today, yes? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And your point in telling that to Mr. 20 Scullion was that other than drawing the inference that 21 the car got from A to B with a driver, you could see 22 nothing of that driver, right, that's what you told him 23 today? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: But you told the OPP, in respect of


1 an allegation of attempt murder against your assailant, 2 that he was a male Native on September 9th, 1995. Were 3 you lying then or are you lying now, sir? 4 A: No, sir, I wasn't. 5 Q: You weren't lying then? 6 A: No, sir. 7 Q: All right. So it was a male Native? 8 A: I -- I don't know whether I drew that 9 conclusion. I can't recall what my thoughts were at that 10 time, whether I assumed because of the Natives we had 11 dealt with before, whether I concluded that that was a 12 male driving, being a Native, because that's who we had 13 confrontation with before. 14 I don't recall why I made that notation 15 and why I drew that conclusion. 16 Q: On September 9th, 1995 you would have 17 now had an opportunity to spend time with your colleagues 18 at the Pinery, right? 19 A: Yes. We were called out to the 20 Pinery, yes. 21 Q: And one of the things that certainly 22 would have come up was the trauma in facing the motor 23 vehicle, right? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And somebody would have told you they


1 thought it was a male Native, right? 2 A: I don't recall that, sir. 3 Q: Could have? 4 A: Could have. Could have not. 5 Q: And then you would have offered that 6 explanation to the OPP, correct? 7 A: I don't know, sir. I don't recall 8 that. 9 Q: You'd agree with me that a person who 10 is incapable of telling you what they did or did not see 11 about their assailant, represents an unreliable witness 12 in respect to the assailant; would you agree with that? 13 A: I'm being as truthful as I can with 14 you, sir. 15 Q: Would you agree with me that a person 16 who cannot recall what they did or did not see about 17 their assailant, is an unreliable witness in respect of 18 their assailant; would you agree with that? 19 A: I guess. I don't know. 20 Q: Now, you say -- you say you see 4 21 inches of a barrel coming out of the window of a car, 22 right? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: We don't have anybody else's help, we 25 just have your evidence, right?


1 A: That's correct, sir. 2 Q: Now, you -- you made a point of 3 expressing to SIU, and I can bring you to the portion 4 about your hunting background and guns. Do you remember 5 telling them that? I -- I apologize. I -- I want to 6 give you the reference instead of jumping about. 7 So if you look at Tab -- if you look at 8 Tab 25 at page... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: ...16, it says: 13 "No, sir, I've been an officer for just 14 coming to fifteen (15) years now and 15 I've had hunting experience. I've 16 taking several courses through the 17 police forces. I've seen muzzle 18 flashes before. I've been part of 19 Emergency Response Team for coming up 20 two (2) years now. There's no doubt in 21 my mind it was muzzle flash." 22 You -- you have experience with guns, 23 personally and professionally? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: You know guns leave residues?


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Especially short arms? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: You know that if you place a gun near 5 an item, whether it's a window sill or a steering wheel, 6 it's going to leave residue if it discharges right beside 7 it, right? 8 A: It should, yes, sir. 9 Q: There's no doubt in your mind that 10 all you had was four (4) inches of barrel coming out of 11 that window, right? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: There's no doubt in your mind that 14 the 4 inches of barrel coming right out of that window, 15 was right beside the window ledge of the car? 16 A: It was beside it, yes. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: On top of it. 19 Q: Within inches of it? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: I'm putting Exhibits P-1468 and P- 22 1469 in front of you. Are you familiar, in your 23 professional or personal experience with guns, with the 24 notion of a GSR examination? Do you know what that is? 25 A: A GSR? No.


1 Q: Have you ever heard of identification 2 units within the Ontario Provincial Police conducting gun 3 residue tests? 4 A: Yes, I've heard of that, yes, sir. 5 Q: All right. Would you take a look at 6 1478 and 1479. Do you see them there, the exhibit 7 numbers? 8 A: I have 1469 and 1468. 9 Q: I'm sorry. 1468 and 1469? Do you 10 have them in front of you? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you see how the Chrysler is 13 identified as one (1) of the items? It's the subject of 14 examination? And if you look at the search warrant, the 15 last page, the appendix, do you see how in addition to it 16 being the subject of examination by virtue of a GSR 17 examination, paint chips are taken off the door to 18 examine those? Do you see all that? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Now, there is not a whit of evidence 21 on the database or from My Friends from the Ontario 22 Provincial Police Association or the Ontario Provincial 23 Police, that there is any evidence that a weapon was 24 discharged close to that door, nothing found. In your 25 professional or personal experience, can you account for


1 that? 2 A: No, sir. 3 Q: It's quite unusual, wouldn't you 4 agree, that, you know, with a muzzle flash, a big shotgun 5 making a big bang right beside you, that there's no 6 residue? It's unusual, isn't it? 7 A: I'm not an expert when it comes to 8 the technical identification stuff. I'm not qualified 9 that way. I do have personal experience -- 10 Q: With shotguns? 11 A: Yes, just everyday working knowledge 12 of them. I'm not involved with technical 13 identifications. 14 Q: But you've taken several courses 15 through police forces, that's what you said at page 16, 16 Tab 25; that's what you said. 17 A: Not with -- not with identification 18 services dealing with that. 19 Q: Fair enough, but with guns? 20 A: With guns, I've taken safety courses. 21 Q: And you intended to convey to SIU 22 that you had some expertise in recognizing a shotgun, 23 right? That was the point of saying this. You want to 24 turn to page 16? 25 If those exhibits could be first turned


1 over to Mr. Commissioner and then put back in the box so 2 that Mr. Millar's satisfied that I haven't stolen them. 3 And I say that in jest of course because I have a 4 terrible habit of keeping exhibits. If that could be 5 passed first to Mr. Commissioner? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: There's a last 8 page, Mr. Commissioner, of the search warrant 1469 that 9 I'd like to draw to your attention -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- which reflects 12 the last appendix page to the search warrant. One (1) of 13 the documents, I think it's 1469, has a last page on it. 14 There should be an appendix? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I see 16 it. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And it reflects all 18 the different tests done on the vehicle. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 21 Q: Do you see at page 16 of Tab 25, the 22 statement where you explain that your expertise, 23 professionally and personally, assists you in identifying 24 that shotgun and the muzzle flash? 25 You see that?


1 A: Yes, sir, at the bottom? Yes, sir. 2 Q: All right. So I want you to marshal 3 that expertise you wanted to tell SIU about and you tell 4 me how it is that no residues got left anywhere by that 5 big bang? 6 A: I can't explain that, sir. 7 Q: No. Unless, of course, you're lying. 8 A: I'm not, sir. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well -- 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I am putting to the 11 Witness and I am -- I am -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 13 minute -- 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- in -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 16 minute, just let him speak. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: This -- this is really 18 extraordinary. We know that those -- that those tests 19 were done, I think twenty (20) days later or something. 20 It was a long time after the event. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 22 look at the date. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah, it's -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 25 should --


1 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- a long time after the 2 event and to -- to conclude with this Witness that he's 3 lying, based upon no evidence about the science of all of 4 this and where -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- the tests were taken 7 from the car, what part of the car, is just not fair. I 8 think that's -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 10 that's fair. All you can say is there's no residue, Mr. 11 Falconer. That's a fact. Those tests found no residue. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm just putting on 16 the record -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What is the 18 date of -- 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- the date of -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What is the 21 date of the -- 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- the tests. So 23 we have them for you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the date 25 of the tests?


1 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: September 19th, 2 1995 is when the items were collected -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So it's -- 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- we're clear. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 6 approximately two (2) weeks. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: What was -- what 8 was collected on September 19th, 1995 was paint sample 9 from the driver's door of vehicle -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Approximately 11 two (2) weeks. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's right. What 13 was collected was copper fragment from inside driver door 14 of vehicle; taping from passenger seat of vehicle; taping 15 from passenger back seat rest of vehicle; taping from 16 driver's seat of vehicle -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, yes. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- and gunshot 19 residue kit conducted on vehicle steering wheel. 20 Suffice to say, that the fact that it was 21 done on September 19th should be brought to the Witness' 22 attention. That's very fair. 23 Beyond that, Mr. Roland is not entitled to 24 introduce his view that that somehow in any way biases -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but --


1 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- the tests. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But calling 3 him -- 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: But it's fair that 5 it be brought to the Witness' attention. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But you -- 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: It also -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just stick 9 to the -- 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- should be brought -- 11 it's fair to be brought to the Witness' attention that 12 there's no continuity between the 6th of September and 13 the 19th of September with respect to the -- the car. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's fine. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So it's not 16 fair to conclude that he's a liar. It's just all you can 17 ask is there is no residue. That's a fact. That's a 18 fact, two (2) weeks later. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And he can't 21 explain it -- 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 24 Q: Did you hear the clarifications 25 brought by your Counsel, sir?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. That (1) there is issues 3 over continuity of the vehicle? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And (2) that the tests were based on 6 a September 19th, 1995 gathering of samples. Did you 7 hear both those things? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now, sir, again, I'm going to put it 10 to you, that based on your evidence with respect to the 11 Molotov cocktail, based on your evidence with respect to 12 the alleged heat; that based on your evidence that has 13 been turning backwards and forwards on who the assailant 14 was and how you could identify him; that based on all of 15 the inconsistencies that have come out from your 16 evidence, that you are lying and fabricating your 17 evidence. 18 I'm putting that to you. 19 A: No, sir. 20 Q: I'm going to put to you that, 21 ultimately, you have a view that Ken Deane was victimized 22 in this process; that is, he was unfairly scapegoated. 23 Is that true? You do have that view. 24 A: No, sir, I don't. 25 Q: You think that justice was done, that


1 Ken Deane should have been convicted? 2 A: It was -- it was served and it took 3 its path that it should -- or took was initiated to take, 4 and I have to respect that. 5 Q: Fair enough. So would you agree with 6 this, then, that one of the things you wouldn't want to 7 see is, for example, Ken Deane elevated to some hero 8 status amongst the OPPA? 9 That would not be appropriate in your 10 view, would it? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: All right. I'm going to read to you 13 some evidence from Vince George concerning Mr. Deane and 14 ask you some direct questions relating to that evidence. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: I'm at April 5th, 2006 and I'm going 19 to put the passage in front of the Witness. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: My Friend has made no 21 connection -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 23 I'm saying -- 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- between the evidence 25 with respect to what this Witness saw and gave an account


1 of on the 7th and 8th, both in his notes and in the 2 statement to the OPP; that is on September 7th and 8th, 3 and Ken Deane. 4 At that stage, there's no -- he's made no 5 connection. He's treating it as if his evidence or his 6 account of what happened at the car is somehow connected 7 at that stage with Ken Deane, and he's made no connection 8 to it at all. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 10 sure -- 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: And so to go to this -- 12 to go about -- about the -- about what someone else's 13 view, another witness' view of whatever occurred months 14 or years later concerning Ken Deane, seems to be of no 15 assistance to this -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 17 why you're asking this Witness those questions. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This witness 20 doesn't have anything to add -- 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The issue about 22 cross-examination, there is -- I am well within my time 23 and I'm about to engage -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's got 25 nothing to do with time.


1 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's fair enough. 2 I'm just pointing that out. I'm about to engage in an 3 examination on an issue. 4 Now, I am, with respect, entitled to enjoy 5 some latitude in developing the issue. I don't have to 6 provide Mr. Roland my brief on how it's connected and 7 flag that to the Witness. 8 I am going somewhere, you will see it in 9 several questions. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just don't 11 understand why you need to ask this Witness these 12 questions. There may be other witnesses that you can ask 13 these questions of, who may have something useful to 14 offer. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: But you said -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This witness 17 doesn't. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- "these 19 questions," Mr. Commissioner, I haven't asked the 20 question yet. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you 22 have. You -- 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I have alluded to 24 the Vince George evidence -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You --


1 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- and I haven't 2 asked a question yet. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, but 4 you're indicating that you're going to ask him about 5 this, otherwise why would you be putting it to him. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Right. But I 7 haven't asked the question -- I haven't asked the 8 question to be objected to yet. I simply indicated, I'm 9 putting the Vince George evidence of you and I'm going -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why are you 11 doing that? 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- to read you a 13 passage -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're doing 15 that to ask him questions about it. 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. That's right. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So that's 18 why the objection -- 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Okay. Fair enough. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- because 21 it's obvious what you're doing. I mean, it isn't -- 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, if -- if it's 23 obvious what I'm doing, then I suppose it's relevant. 24 But all I'm asking is some latitude so I can ask my 25 question.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's obvious 2 that it's not relevant. But, in any event, what is 3 your -- 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'd like to read 5 the passage to the Witness and ask the Witness a 6 question. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm at April 5th, 11 2006 at page -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I know. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- 226, line 4. 14 Ms. Colleen Johnson is cross-examining Officer Vince 15 George and I -- and I have a number -- and -- and this is 16 what I'm going to read to you, sir, if you have it in 17 front of you. Page 226, do you have that? The second 18 page in -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- and look at line 21 4: 22 "Q: You also alluded to the OPP 23 organization treating Ken Deane as a 24 hero. A: I'm not -- I guess I should 25 restate that and say the OPPA, in my


1 view, treated him as a hero. 2 Q: Would you like to expand on that? 3 A: Well, the reason I say that is 4 because I think it was October -- 5 October of 2003, I was at an 6 association meeting. I rarely go to 7 association meetings. That particular 8 night it was announced that he was 9 given a lifetime membership to the OPPA 10 and given a golden -- a gold watch. 11 And I didn't think that was appropriate 12 for -- for someone that had been 13 convicted of a criminal offence." 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I remember 15 that evidence. 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: "Q. My Friend Mr. 17 Scullion asked you about, Was it 18 difficult to be in the middle of the 19 OPP and family members prior to the 20 events of September 6th? Was it 21 difficult to be a member of the OPP 22 following the death of Dudley George? 23 A: Yes, I think so. 24 A: Well, I think it's primarily 25 because of the position many of the


1 OPPA members took on Ken Deane, that he 2 -- he was an innocent party." 3 Now, stopping there. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I 5 remember that evidence. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 8 Q: Stopping there. Did you know, first 9 of all -- you're a member of the Ontario Provincial 10 Police Association, yes? 11 A: Yes, I am. 12 Q: You're a voting member? 13 A: I'm not active with it, no. 14 Q: All right. But you're a voting 15 member? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And did you know in 2003 18 that Ken Deane was honoured in the fashion described by 19 Vince George? 20 A: No, I wasn't aware of that, sir. 21 Q: All right. And then secondly, let me 22 ask you this: Do you know of any other means by which 23 Ken Deane has been honoured, any other memorabilia, 24 plaques or events that you're familiar with, in which Ken 25 Deane, as Vince George put it, was honoured as somewhat


1 of an innocent party by his fellow officers? 2 A: No, sir, I'm not. 3 Q: Thank you. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: I wanted some clarity in terms of 8 your evidence with respect to the 18:50 entry in your 9 notes on September 6th, 1995. It was your evidence that 10 18:50 represented the last ability on your point to 11 pinpoint time. 12 Do you remember saying that? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And in representing the last 15 opportunity to pinpoint time, you have related it to when 16 you're training on the ASP baton began; is that right? 17 A: Yeah. At Forest Detachment. 18 Q: All right. And in your company would 19 have been other members of your team from the Emergency 20 Response Unit, correct? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And the idea was ERT was getting 23 training on the usage of the ASP baton in the event of a 24 clash with occupiers, correct? 25 A: I'm not sure why we were being issued


1 it. We -- we already had nightsticks. 2 Q: But would you agree with me that the 3 inference you would have drawn at the time was you 4 weren't -- sorry, it wasn't a fluke that you were getting 5 the training at that to go about your daily duties 6 somewhere else? 7 You would have inferred from the fact that 8 you were getting this training that it was in the event 9 you needed the ASP's for a clash with the occupiers, 10 correct? 11 A: I had the training beforehand so it 12 wasn't anything unique to me. I don't know why we were 13 given it at that specific time. I wasn't involved with 14 the issuing of it. I was happy to get a new piece of 15 equipment. 16 Q: Fair enough. And what -- what I 17 wanted to as you about that though, is that you would 18 have spent some time in ERT by that time, yes? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you would have had experience 21 with police procedures and training? 22 A: Somewhat, yes. 23 Q: And organized efforts to train a 24 number of officers all at the same time, generally have a 25 purpose?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes. And I don't want to be 3 sarcastic about this, but can you envisage any other 4 usage for the ASPs that night, other than in a clash with 5 the occupiers? 6 A: That was the subsequent use of them, 7 yes. 8 Q: Okay. But you can't envisage any 9 other use you could have put them to that night? 10 A: Other than getting issued them 11 because we did retain them after that, and I've carried 12 them ever since. 13 Q: So it might have just been a 14 coincidence? 15 A: It may have been. 16 Q: Do you believe that? 17 A: I'm not sure, sir, what happened -- 18 Q: Fair enough. 19 A: I didn't issue them. 20 Q: Now, members of the ERT team were 21 actually held back. Were you part of the shift held back 22 as in the -- the day shift concluded but they stayed and 23 then the night shift came on? 24 Were you -- I -- I apologize, I -- I 25 didn't note that down in your evidence. Were you part of


1 the day shift that stayed on? 2 A: Yes, sir, I was day shift. 3 Q: All right. So you would represent a 4 group of ERT members who should have -- basically their 5 shift should have ended in and around 7:00 p.m.; is that 6 right? 7 A: Yes, I was. 8 Q: And you would have been a part of the 9 group that are -- are, in essence, told not to go home 10 and then part of the process is this training on the ASP 11 baton, yes? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that happens sort of -- I mean 14 there's no way that you could have been sitting there for 15 ASP baton training at 7:15 and think you're going home at 16 the same time, are we agreed? 17 A: Yes, I -- I don't recall how it all 18 came together. 19 Q: But in your mind it's one (1) and the 20 same event? You're asked to stay back and you start 21 getting ASP baton training? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Thank you. Now, right after you get 24 ASP baton training, the next event you remember is 25 kitting up, true?


1 A: Yes. I think it was a partial kit up 2 at Forest Detachment. 3 Q: Okay. And when you say, "Forest 4 Detachment," for -- for those of us who sometimes forget, 5 the Command Post for the Ipperwash operation is right 6 beside Forest Detachment in a trailer; is that right? 7 A: I recall a trailer being there. 8 Q: Forest Detachment's right beside the 9 Command Post, is the point. 10 A: Yes, I believe it was. 11 Q: So you couldn't put all the ERT 12 members in the Command Trailer, right? 13 A: No. 14 Q: So they'd be in the building beside 15 the Command Trailer, getting this ASP baton training? 16 A: I don't recall where we were when we 17 got it. 18 Q: Okay. And then you said you 19 partially kit up. What is the portions of your kit that 20 you put on? 21 A: I believe it was the clothes I would 22 wear underneath my uniform, that I would kit up, like 23 athlete's support and that type of thing. 24 Q: Okay. So in other words, you know, I 25 -- I don't want to be blithe about this but are we agreed


1 that basically it's like getting ready for a hockey game 2 and you first put your undergarments on? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: So I think the colloquial is a jock 5 strap? 6 A: A jock strap, yes. 7 Q: Yes. And other things that would 8 represent the first layer of your full kit? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then following the putting on of 11 the first layer of your full kit, the idea would be you 12 still have time to put on the rest of your kit? 13 A: At a later time, yes. 14 Q: And that happened shortly thereafter? 15 A: At -- at the TOC. 16 Q: At the TOC? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: So is -- now -- now we heard evidence 19 about practice formations being conducted by Sergeant 20 Hebblethwaite, would those practice formations have been 21 done at Forest or at the TOC, in your memory? 22 A: In Forest. 23 Q: At Forest? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, if they're done at Forest, did


1 you practice your formations in underwear and a jock 2 strap? 3 A: No, I would have put on my -- the 4 rest of my uniform back on. 5 Q: Oh. So you took your jock strap, et 6 cetera off? 7 A: No, no, I would leave it on. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: As -- as you expressed with, like say 10 hockey, you put your undergarments on and then you put 11 your clothing overtop. 12 Q: I'm sorry, I'm just -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're 16 assuming that you're -- 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's right. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- coming to 19 a close. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's right. 21 Coming to... 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry? 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 25 Q: You put uniform back on and then you


1 practice formations; yes? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then you put your helmet, et 4 cetera, on after; is that how it works? 5 I'm just trying to understand the 6 sequence. 7 A: Yes, the helmet and stuff, we 8 wouldn't drive -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- in the cruiser with all this stuff 11 on, outside paddings. 12 Q: That's what I'm trying to get at. 13 A: Yeah. No. The outside padding would 14 be put on later when we arrived at the TOC. 15 Q: Okay, and that's because it's very 16 hard to move around in all that. 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: All right. So you -- you do what you 19 can to dress up underneath -- 20 A: It's a partial. 21 Q: And then you put clothing on that 22 you'll be allowed to wear under your full gear in any 23 event; is that right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. So it's not as if you have to


1 strip again. 2 A: No. 3 Q: You now -- you're now ready to put on 4 the heavier gear? 5 A: Yeah, the gear that goes over the 6 top, yes. 7 Q: Right. And then you practice 8 formations right after you get that underclothing on? 9 A: Just -- I don't recall the sequence 10 of when that was done, but we practised some out back in 11 the parking lot, yes. 12 Q: All right. But in terms of your mind 13 and your recollection, it was the continuity of events. 14 You didn't spend an hour waiting around; you basically 15 got training on the ASP. 16 After you get the training on the ASP, you 17 gear up with your undergarments. After you gear up with 18 your undergarments and put on your uniform, you then 19 practice formations? 20 Is that right? 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: What does this have to 22 do with the sequence? 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, this is 24 cross-examination -- I know My Friend wants to help with 25 the evidence.


1 MR. IAN ROLAND: How -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: To -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm allowed to make 4 suggestions to him. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 6 Falconer, we're trying to move -- 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: You're asking about the 8 sequence -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- this 10 forward. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- he said he didn't 12 know the sequence. He now goes back and asks him about 13 the sequence again. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It's almost as if 16 I'm leading the Witness with cross-examination. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, yes, 18 you're doing that. But that's allowed. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 21 almost finished because I -- 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I'm 24 having a difficult -- 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- don't have --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- time. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- if I have to -- 3 the two (2) hours isn't up and I'm -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, it's not 5 the -- 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- exchanges with 7 Mr. Roland -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- time, 9 it's -- 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm moving us -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on, 12 Mr. -- 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- along. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 15 Falconer, please carry on and -- 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- bring it 18 to a conclusion. Thank you. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 21 Q: As I asked you, the chain of events 22 was, undergarments first, clothing on top -- sorry. 23 training on the ASP baton, undergarments, placement of 24 uniform, and then you do your formations; is that right? 25 A: I don't recall the sequence of


1 events. 2 Q: All right. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, stop 4 there. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 8 Q: Now after the training you then go to 9 TOC with your gear? 10 A: Yes, we left and went to the TOC, 11 yes. 12 Q: Thank you. And you put your gear on 13 at TOC. Now, do you recall at what point in time, all 14 right, between the doing of the formations and the 15 attendance with your gear at TOC, you would have been 16 told you were being deployed? 17 A: No, I don't, sir. I don't recall. 18 Q: All right. Looking at your notes, do 19 you have any reflection of when you're told you're being 20 deployed? 21 A: No, sir, I don't. 22 Q: But you'd agree with me that looking 23 back on it, while you don't remember the sequence, there 24 is a flow of events starting at 18:50, right? 25 A: There is a flow of events, yes.


1 Q: And you have no visible recollection 2 of a long delay or an interruption in those flow events; 3 am I right? 4 A: I don't recall anything, no. 5 Q: Right. Could you turn to Tab 15, 6 please? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: I'm at Exhibit P-427 and it -- these 11 are a scribe -- handwritten scribe note -- extract, page 12 370 and page 430. 13 Do you have those in front of you? 14 A: Tab 15, yes, and P-427. 15 Q: Yes. That's the Exhibit number. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, these are extracted and they're 18 dated September 5th, 1995 and it says: 19 "20:18, asked to be scribe by Detective 20 Constable Speck." 21 Is that you that's asked to be a scribe. 22 A: No, I -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. Can I have P-1497 put in


1 front of the Witness, please? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Exhibit P-1497. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 12 Q: Sir, if you could unfold that T- 13 shirt. That T-shirt is Exhibit P-1497. If you could 14 just take a look at the logo for a moment. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Have you ever seen that logo before? 17 A: No, sir. I wasn't involved in that. 18 Q: Well I -- there is a difference 19 between being involved in something and having seen it. 20 I just want to know, have you ever seen the logo? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He started 22 out by saying no. 23 THE WITNESS: No. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then he 25 said "I wasn't involved".


1 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. So I -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So you got 3 the answer. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Sorry. Ms. Vella 9 may -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've got a 11 strange way of bringing -- 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- Ms. Vella may 13 have an objection. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I'm not 15 sure that she does. Or does she? 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just -- just an 17 observation that I asked the very question in-chief. 18 That's all. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 20 right. And you indicated that you were bringing it to a 21 conclusion. I just find it -- 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I think, Mr. 23 Commissioner, I was actually -- you saw me a little bit 24 quizzical before. I -- I didn't intend to say that. I 25 meant an area was being brought to a conclusion.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I had the 2 impression that you were bringing your examination -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yeah. No. And I 4 didn't mean to convey that, and I apologize that -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. All 6 right. Perhaps -- 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I meant, in the 8 greatest disrespect but -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps that 10 explains it. I thought you were winding down and you're 11 opening up new areas. That's fine. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So you got 14 an answer to the question. Now -- 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- let's 17 carry on. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 20 Q: Thank you. Now, first may I ask you, 21 seeing this T-shirt, right, I appreciate that it would be 22 a very odd circumstances for you to buy it at this stage 23 in view of the attention it's received but, at the time, 24 I'd ask you to harken back to your views and your 25 mentality at the time of September 1995, after being


1 involved in Project Maple, would you find this T-shirt 2 something you would or would not purchase? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 7 how that helps me. I'm thinking about that, but I'm just 8 not sure how that's in any way helpful. He didn't buy 9 it. 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah. I don't see how 11 this assists you at all. It's -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 13 either. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 16 Q: I can -- I can rephrase the question. 17 You're familiar with the TRU symbol? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you see how ERT is spread across 20 an anvil? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And you're an OPP officer 23 of now in excess of twenty (20) years. Would you agree 24 with me that what the logo shows is the TRU symbol 25 breaking an arrow over the ERT emblem?


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 2 think that this is useful for this Witness. This witness 3 didn't buy it, didn't see it, doesn't own it, had nothing 4 to do with it, asking him questions about it is not 5 helpful. 6 There are lots of witnesses who may have 7 seen it, who may have bought it, who may have created it, 8 who can help us. I don't think that's useful. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, rather than 10 make argument on it, I'll -- I'll move on -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- Mr. 13 Commissioner. I want to be helpful but -- but I -- I do 14 want to emphasize that the culture -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, this 16 is -- 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- and the 18 mentality of the Ontario Provincial Police, whether one 19 (1) particular officer buys a T-shirt or not -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're not 21 making argument now? Is this not making argument? Thank 22 you, Mr. Falconer. 23 We have to get done, Mr. Falconer, 24 somehow. We have very few days left. We have lots of 25 witnesses. We have to use our time effectively and I'm


1 just having difficulty sometimes understanding the 2 relevance of some of your questions. 3 Let's move on. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 8 Q: You described Mr. -- or Officer Wade 9 Lacroix lifting his visor and addressing somebody at the 10 fence. 11 Do you recall giving that description? 12 A: Yes. It appeared to me, at the angle 13 I was it looked like it was -- he didn't lift it, just 14 tilted it back moreso than a lift. 15 Q: And -- and then spoke? 16 A: Appeared to speak. I could see his 17 mouth moving. 18 Q: All right. Do you recall ever 19 hearing an utterance from Mr. Lacroix or -- or Sergeant 20 Hebblethwaite for that matter, towards the occupiers 21 about staying in the Park and the police would in no way 22 come into the Park if they simply stayed in the Park? 23 Do you recall hearing that? 24 A: I did not hear anything like that, 25 sir.


1 Q: All right. You do recall hearing 2 words from the occupiers about their forefathers and 3 their sacred grounds; you remember that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: So I take it whatever the noise level 6 was you were able to make that out? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And they didn't have any mechanical 9 way for amplifying their voice? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And neither did Mr. Lacroix? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: So without you being able to say what 14 Lacroix did or didn't say to the occupiers, based on what 15 I'm hearing, am I safe in inferring that Lacroix was 16 close enough to talk to them? 17 A: He would have to yell. 18 Q: All right. Am I safe in inferring 19 that he was close enough to yell to them? 20 A: He would have to yell, yes, sir. 21 Q: All right. Thank you. Those are my 22 questions. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 24 Mr. Falconer. 25 Do you have any questions, Mr. Roland?


1 MR. IAN ROLAND: A few. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you give 3 me some reasonable estimate of how long you might be so 4 we can know whether we'll have time to start another 5 witness before the end of -- 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'd say ten (10) or 7 fifteen (15) minutes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) or 9 fifteen (15) minutes? 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then let's 12 carry on. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 15 Q: Constable Cossitt, now let me take 16 you to the -- the incident in the parking lot when the -- 17 the Native occupier and you came into contact, that is 18 you came into contact with the occupier with a shield and 19 you've described he had a -- he had a two by four (2x4). 20 A: That's correct, he did. 21 Q: Your evidence was he had a two by 22 four (2x4) and he was swinging it like a baseball bat 23 over his shoulder -- 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: -- or about to. Do you have any


1 doubt that it was a two by four (2x4)? 2 A: I'm positive it was a two by four 3 (2x4), sir. 4 Q: Could it have been a pipe? 5 A: No, it wasn't a pipe. 6 Q: Did the -- the Native that you had 7 contact with break your shield with -- with the two by 8 four (2x4)? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: Did you see him break any shield or 11 hear any shield being broken in close proximity that he 12 would have broken a shield with a two by four (2x4)? 13 A: The person I had contact with? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. Did you -- at the time of 17 the contact with him did you hear the sound of breaking - 18 - what sounded like the sound of breaking glass? 19 A: No, I did not hear that. 20 Q: All right. Now, we've heard evidence 21 from Staff Sergeant Lacroix that at -- at this time, that 22 is the time that -- of that punchout and when he says he 23 came into contact with a Native who swung a -- a steel 24 pipe and broke his shield that he thought he saw another 25 couple of protestors down? Did you see any other


1 protestors down -- 2 A: No, sir. 3 Q: -- at -- at that time? The only 4 protestor that you saw down was the one that you came in 5 contact with? 6 A: That's correct, sir. 7 Q: You were asked by Mr. Falconer about 8 your view of Ken Deane being victimized. Let me ask you 9 first of all, at the time of this incident, that is in 10 September of '95 did you know Ken Deane? 11 A: No, I didn't. 12 Q: All right. And at the time that you 13 gave your -- you wrote your notes and gave your statement 14 the next day on the 8th or 9th of September to the OPP 15 officer did you know that Ken Deane was in any way 16 directly involved in any of the -- of the shooting that 17 had occurred or discharge of firearms that had occurred 18 in the area of the parking lot? 19 A: No, I wasn't. 20 Q: All right. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: If you could turn to Tab 22. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: This is P-1574. You'll see that the 4 opening line of the -- from the officer who's 5 interviewing you is: 6 "At this point you're not considered to 7 be a subject officer in this 8 investigation." 9 Do you see that? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And did you understand at that stage 12 that whatever the investigation was you weren't a subject 13 officer? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Now, let me take you to the incident 16 involving the car. You've been testifying about the 17 incident in which you were at the window of the car with 18 your shield in your left hand and your ASP baton in your 19 right hand and you've told us I -- that the shield was 20 against the 'A' -- the 'A' frame of the windshield at the 21 driver's door, right? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Was the shield between you and the -- 24 and the muzzle flash when it went off? 25 A: No, it wasn't.


1 Q: All right. And as you approached the 2 vehicle, in that area, what was the lighting like? 3 A: It was poor. There was basically no 4 lighting. 5 Q: Was it dark? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And let me ask you another thing. 8 You just -- just before you went to the car, the car had 9 been coming at you, you say, with four (4) rectangular 10 square headlights. 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Had that momentarily effected your 13 vision? 14 A: Momentarily, yes. 15 Q: Right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Thank you, Constable Cossitt. Those 20 are my questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 22 Mr. Roland. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Vella, 2 do you have any re-examination? 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I don't have any re- 4 examination. But I would like to thank Constable Cossitt 5 for coming and sharing his evidence with the Commission 6 today. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much, Constable, for coming -- 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and 11 giving us your evidence. You're excused now. 12 Do we need a break or can we go right into 13 the next witness? 14 15 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 16 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Could we take about 18 five (5) minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About five 20 (5) minutes. And we'll go to about half past 5:00. Is 21 that all right? 22 We'll start now and go to about half past 23 5:00. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 25 for five (5) minutes.


1 2 --- Upon recessing at 4:47 p.m. 3 --- Upon resuming at 4:51 p.m. 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 6 resumed, please be seated. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 8 Millar...? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, 10 Commissioner. Our next witness is Constable Mark 11 Beauchesne. 12 13 MARK IVON BEAUCHESNE, Affirmed 14 15 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: Constable Beauchesne, I understand 17 you joined the Ontario Provincial Police in 1985; is that 18 correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And could you turn to Tab 1 of the 21 black binder in front of you. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And is that a copy of your CV?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I understand that you, from 1985 3 to 1990, you were a member of the Dutton Detachment and 4 did general law enforcement? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you joined the London Tactics and 7 Rescue Unit in 1990? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And you are still a -- a member -- 10 are you a member today of the -- 11 A: Yes, I am. 12 Q: -- TRU team? And in 1993, you joined 13 the disposal unit; is that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And are still a member of that unit 16 today? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And I understand that you have a BA 19 in Psychology with a concentration on criminology from 20 Carlton University? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you obtained your degree in 1988? 23 A: Yeah, around that time. 24 Q: Now, I would like to ask that the CV 25 be marked the next exhibit.


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-1584, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1584: Document number 2005547. 4 Resume of Mark Ivon 5 Beauchesne. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Thank you. Now, as I understand it, 9 as a member of the TRU team over the last almost fifteen 10 (15) years, you have been most frequently called out to 11 deal with barricade situations; is that correct? 12 A: Among other things, yes. 13 Q: And -- or a hostage situation? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Or a man -- or a man hunt -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- for someone? 18 A: Searches. 19 Q: And in addition to your initial 20 training that we've heard from others about, you receive 21 ongoing training; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the -- as I understand it, back 24 in 1995, and let's put it back in 1995, you would have 25 received weapons' training on an ongoing basis; is that


1 correct? 2 A: Yes. It's a regular part of our 3 training. 4 Q: And back in 1995 had you any formal 5 training with respect to night vision goggles? 6 A: Formal training? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Off the top of my head I -- I really 9 can't recall. 10 Q: Back in 1995 or pre-1995, the London 11 TRU team, did it meet with the other TRU teams across the 12 province on occasion -- 13 A: Yes. Periodically we did. 14 Q: And that was for training? 15 A: Joint training, yes. 16 Q: And in 1995 can you tell us what the 17 personal weapons or the weapons that were assigned to you 18 as a TRU team member? 19 A: I would have had a personally 20 assigned pistol, Browning high power in 9 millimetre. I 21 would have had an MP-5, which is -- 22 Q: And what's an MP-5? 23 A: -- a sub-machine gun. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: In 9 millimetre as well. I would


1 have had, as a member of the RECCE team, I believe I 2 would have also had access to or been assigned a 3 suppressed MP-5. And I also had access to an assault 4 rifle. 5 Q: And that was an HK-33? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that, in 1995, was a .223 8 caliber? 9 A: Yes, it was. 10 Q: And in 1995 -- you said that as a 11 member of the RECCE team, and that's R-E-C-C-E? 12 A: Yeah. It's just short for 13 reconnaissance. 14 Q: And is that what your principal role 15 was in 1995? 16 A: It would have been my formal tasking 17 at certain occurrences; at barricades or where 18 reconnaissance was required pre-warrant. 19 Q: And the -- back in 1995, or prior to 20 1995, after a TRU call was there typically a debriefing? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner 23 what the process was of debriefing, and this is before 24 September 1, 1995? 25 A: Debriefings would take place after


1 occurrences to identify areas that you -- you'd review 2 the call and you'd identify areas that you did well at, 3 and areas that you might want to improve at, or where 4 problems arose, and then seek solutions to those 5 problems. 6 Q: And what about debriefing after a -- 7 a traumatic incident? Prior to September 1, 1995, had 8 you been involved in a traumatic incident? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And was there a debriefing with 11 respect to the traumatic incident, separate and apart 12 from the regular debriefing? 13 A: Debriefings for -- for post-traumatic 14 incidents, a lot of our incidents you could class as -- 15 as traumatic. It depends, I guess, on people's 16 perspectives. 17 There were some calls where people were 18 brought in to chat about the call with, to debrief the 19 incident. But it -- it didn't happen very often. 20 Q: And that you would have a -- I just 21 missed the answer to that. 22 A: Yeah. It -- it wasn't at every call. 23 It would be up to the member or -- or the team leader to 24 decide if it was a call that was really necessary. If 25 somebody expressed the desire to have a post-traumatic


1 incident debrief, certainly it would have been 2 accommodated. 3 Q: And what -- 4 A: And -- 5 Q: -- can you tell us what a post- 6 traumatic debrief refers to? 7 A: It would -- it would involve the four 8 (4) psychologists often, and around-the-table discussion 9 of -- of the event. I haven't been involved in a lot of 10 them, but that's the gist of my experience. 11 Q: So that it's more a psychological -- 12 it's a support -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- from the four (4) psychologists? 15 A: Yeah. To get your head around what 16 occurred and -- and what you might be feeling and -- and 17 issues like that. 18 Q: And a regular debriefing, have you 19 been involved in a -- were you involved in a situation 20 prior to September 1, 1995, where there was a potential 21 for an SIU investigation? 22 A: Yes, I believe. 23 Q: And was there a protocol with respect 24 to what would happen after the event if there was a 25 potential SIU investigation that you were aware of?


1 A: Yeah, there were protocols. 2 Q: And can you -- what were the 3 protocols? 4 A: Ideally you are isolating the 5 officers involved or asking them not to communicate about 6 the occurrence. 7 Q: Okay. And prior to September 1995, 8 had you had any training with respect to First Nations 9 issues? 10 A: Not directly for First Nations, no, I 11 don't believe so. 12 Q: And did you have cultural sensitivity 13 training? 14 A: Somewhere, I -- I believe either at 15 the OPP Academy or at the Ontario Police College there 16 was some sessions, or sessions on cultural sensitivity 17 somewhere prior to '95. 18 Q: And I understand that after 1995 you 19 attended a training session with respect to First Nations 20 issues in April of 1996 at CFB Borden? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that was part of your -- was part 23 of the semi-annual training for TRU? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And I understand, as well, that


1 you've had little contact -- you had little contact with 2 First Nations communities prior to September 1995; is 3 that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that earlier in your career -- 6 A: Actually pre-'95, during my tenure at 7 Dutton Detachment from '85 to '90, I would say that 8 occasionally we would be involved in an incident backing 9 up officers perhaps up in Middlesex who were dealing with 10 the territory, Oneida, and Chippewa, Munsey. 11 Once I was on the TRU team in 1990 I -- I 12 would -- I wouldn't call it irregular, I would say that 13 we -- probably about a half a dozen times or more we were 14 either dealing with First Nations people or on First 15 Nations territories. 16 Q: But it was as part of your -- it 17 wasn't on a regular basis, it was -- with the TRU team it 18 was when you were called out to an incident? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And when you were at the Dutton 21 Detachment it was to assist with the police officers, 22 whether First Nations or OPP officers on -- 23 A: In the neighbouring jurisdiction, 24 yes. 25 Q: Now, if I could take you back to


1 1993. And in 1993 I understand that you were called out 2 in August 1993 with respect to Camp Ipperwash; is that 3 correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And if you look on the inside of that 6 black binder there are some notes, it's three (3) pages 7 of notes. And these are your notes from August 1993? 8 A: Yes, they are. 9 Q: And can you tell us your note taking 10 practices back in 1993 and up to September 1995? How 11 would you normally make -- when would you normally make 12 your notes? 13 A: Ideally at the time, or as soon as 14 possible thereafter. 15 Q: And why did you make notes? 16 A: To assist me in -- with my memory. 17 Q: And these are -- the three (3) pages 18 that you have in front of you, are these your notes from 19 August 23rd and August 24th, 1993? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And I would ask that these be marked 22 the next exhibit? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1585, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1585: Handwritten notebook entries


1 of Mark Beauchesne, August 2 23-24, 1993. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And if you go to page 2, it appears 6 that at -- what's the time you were -- something by 7 Deane? 8 A: I was -- we were involved in another 9 occurrence up until about 12:40, and that last notation 10 is actually from the previous occurrence, removed. I was 11 picked up by Ken Deane at that other occurrence and 12 returned to Detachment. 13 Q: And then there's a note at 2:20 -- or 14 1:30, you were called by Constable Zupancic? 15 A: At 1:30 we departed the office. 16 Q: Oh. 17 A: And I had departed with Constable 18 Zupancic, heading to the occurrence up near Ipperwash. 19 Q: And that's with respect to the 20 helicopter matter? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what, if anything, were you told 23 about what was happening at the Camp Ipperwash? 24 A: I think -- I'll probably just refer 25 to my notes and it was simply that we had information


1 that a Canadian Forces helicopter had been shot at, and 2 that we were moving a little closer to support officers 3 in that area as -- I'm assuming as they investigated. 4 Q: And your notes say: 5 "Natives have occupied part of the base 6 re land dispute." 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And did someone tell you that, 9 Constable Beauchesne, or...? 10 A: I don't know if I was putting that 11 down as just something that I was aware of that I was 12 making a note of to give it context, or if somebody 13 actually told me that at the time. 14 Q: And what information or knowledge did 15 you have, if any, in the summer of 1995 as to Camp 16 Ipperwash and the First Nations? 17 A: That the camp -- the Canadian Forces 18 Base was under dispute, the ownership of the land, by the 19 First Nations people, and that there was some occupations 20 going on around the Camp. 21 Q: And as I understand it from your 22 notes, you were simply on standby at the Pinery Park? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And the TRU team was not called out? 25 A: No, we were just placed on standby.


1 Q: And then if you could turn to Tab 3, 2 there's a copy of Inquiry document 2005582. And these 3 are notes from -- it's dated February 26th, 1995 and 4 February... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Into the -- actually, it's February 9 26th and into the morning of February 27th. But are 10 these your notes, Con -- 11 A: Yes, they are, sir. 12 Q: And I would ask that this be the next 13 exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1586, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1586: Document Number 2005582. 17 Handwritten notes and 18 notebook entries of Mark 19 Beauchesne. February 26-27, 20 1995. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And as I understand it, the London 24 TRU team was called out with respect to an incident at 25 the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And your role was as part of the 3 containment? 4 A: I init -- I initially responded to 5 assist with reconnaissance of the area. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: But I fell into a position in 8 containment. 9 Q: And the incident was resolved when 10 the individual surrendered? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the individual surrendered to a 13 First Nations officer from Kettle and Stony Point? 14 A: They were First Nations officers. I 15 believe they were from Kettle and Stony Point, yes. 16 Q: And I understand that there were some 17 problems with respect to the perimeter being breached? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that there were some individuals 20 who were not happy with the TRU team members or the OPP 21 being there? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And that there was a briefing after 24 the incident, and it was decided there should be more 25 officers on the perimeter?


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And since February of 1995, I 3 understand that you've responded to other calls at the 4 Kettle and Stony Point First Nations and have not had 5 these types of problems? 6 A: None that I can recall. 7 Q: And if I could move you forward to 8 the summer of 1995. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: The -- in the summer of 1995, were 13 you aware of the takeover of the built-up area at Camp 14 Ipperwash at the end of July 1995? 15 A: I would have been aware of that, yes, 16 sir. 17 Q: And can you recall today how you 18 became aware of that, sir? 19 A: Not specifically, no. 20 Q: And in August of 1995, did you play 21 any role with respect to the Army Camp? 22 A: I'm sorry, what was the question 23 again. 24 Q: In August of 1995, did you play any 25 role with respect to the policing of the Army Camp or


1 that area? 2 A: No, sir. 3 Q: And were you familiar with the Army 4 Camp in that area in August of 1995? 5 A: Yes, I was. 6 Q: And how were you familiar with the 7 Army Camp and the area surrounding the Army Camp? 8 A: As part of my basic TRU training in 9 Level 2, we ran a four (4) week phase of our training on 10 CFB Ipperwash in the fall of 1990. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: And we stayed on the Base at that 13 time and trained using the grounds and the facilities 14 there. 15 Q: And were you familiar with Ipperwash 16 Provincial Park? 17 A: I -- I was aware that there was the 18 park there, yes. 19 Q: And had you been down by the Park 20 when you were there in 1990? 21 A: Yes. We would have skirted the Park. 22 We might have actually entered it or run its perimeter 23 before. 24 Q: And were you aware, or did you become 25 aware, in August of 1995, of a potential issue with


1 respect to the Provincial Park? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And how did you become aware of that, 4 sir? 5 A: Specifically, again, I can't recall, 6 but I did become aware that there might be an occupation 7 of the -- the Provincial Park -- 8 Q: And -- 9 A: -- at the end of the season. 10 Q: Pardon me? 11 A: At the end of the season. 12 Q: And -- and at the end -- what was 13 your understanding of the end of the season? 14 A: Labour Day, around then. 15 Q: Labour Day. And did you play any 16 role in planning for the possibility of the takeover of 17 the Provincial Park? 18 A: No. Not in planning, no. 19 Q: Pardon me? 20 A: Not in planning, no, sir. 21 Q: And did Kenneth Deane or Kent Skinner 22 or anyone else speak to you about the planning, prior to 23 September 4, 1995? And September 4th was Labour Day. 24 A: I can't specifically tell you who 25 would have advised me or -- or told me of -- of the


1 planning and what was going on. But just prior to that 2 weekend, myself and another officer did drive up to the 3 park and just did a quick drive around to look at the 4 area and the layout of the roads. 5 Q: And that -- so that was just prior to 6 the Labour Day weekend? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And can you recall today who the 9 officer was who went with you? 10 A: Yeah. It would have been Constable 11 Zupancic. 12 Q: Zupancic. And the purpose was to 13 familiarize yourself with the Provincial Park and the 14 roads around it? 15 A: The roads in the Park, the roads 16 surrounding the Park, and I believe we also looked at -- 17 at a TOC site. 18 Q: And the TOC site being -- and where 19 was that located? 20 A: East Parkway -- 21 Q: And -- 22 A: -- not quite a kilometre south, I 23 guess it depends on which direction you're referring to, 24 but south or west of Army Camp Road. 25 Q: Okay. And it was along East Parkway,


1 west -- we'll come to that, but you -- you treated, at 2 the time, as the Provincial Park being north, the Army 3 Camp being south, and the lake being east, I take it, 4 from what you've just told us. 5 A: I think I've given evidence using 6 both directions. 7 Q: But assuming for the moment that the 8 lake is north, approximately north, then the TOC site 9 that you looked at was west on East Parkway Drive? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And it's the TOC site that became the 12 TOC site when you attended later in early September? 13 A: I believe so, yes. 14 Q: And that was the MNR parking lot? 15 A: What its title was, I can't recall, 16 but it was a large parking lot. 17 Q: But it was a large parking lot? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And at Tab 4 is a copy of Exhibit P- 20 424, and this is Project Maple. In September 1995, did 21 you receive a copy of Project Maple? 22 A: I believe I flipped through a binder 23 that contained information on Project Maple. 24 Q: But you didn't personally see -- 25 A: A personal copy, no, sir, I did not.


1 Q: And do you know who's copy that was 2 that you looked at? Was it Kent Skinner's? 3 A: I can't say for certain, but I 4 believe he was the one handing out the binder. 5 Q: And with respect to the occupation of 6 the Provincial Park, when were you called out, if you 7 were called out, and we know you were, with respect to 8 the Provincial Park? 9 Is that September the 5th? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And at Tab 5 there's a copy of your 12 notes. And are those cop -- it's Inquiry document 13 2005527. Is that a copy of your notes, Constable 14 Beauchesne? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And I would ask these notes to be 17 marked the next exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1587, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1587: Document Number 2005527. 21 Handwritten notebook entries 22 of Mark Beauchesne, September 23 05-22, 1995. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:


1 Q: And before we go into the notes, at 2 Tab 6, there's another set of notes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And again, these are your notes. 7 It's Inquiry document 2005528. Are these your notes, 8 sir? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And I would ask that they be marked 11 the next exhibit. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1588, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1588: Document Number 2005528. 15 Handwritten notes of Mark 16 Beauchesne, September 05-07, 17 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And can you explain to the 21 Commissioner what the notes at Tab 6, Exhibit P-1588, 22 are? 23 A: These are notes that I made in the 24 back of my notebook. At the time, if I was behind in my 25 notes, I would make an entry, start it in the back. And


1 I'd try to run my main notes in a -- in a good timeline 2 or time sequence and use these to either cross-reference 3 or even leave -- let them stand independently and just 4 make reference to them in the main body of my notes, to 5 say that they basically exist. 6 These notes look like they cover several 7 days. 8 Q: Yes. If you -- at the first page -- 9 the first page which has "92" on it, appears to have 10 notes with respect to September 5th, September 6th, 11 September 7th and then there's -- actually I guess 12 they're in the reverse order in here. 13 When you made them, can you look -- were 14 they made starting at 92 back, or I -- from what you 15 said, presumably, they were. 16 Which was the first page? Page 92 or page 17 86? 18 A: I would have to say that page 90 and 19 91 appear to reflect the information that I would have 20 gathered on the reconnaissance. They are two (2) maps, 21 hand drawn maps, of the Ipperwash area -- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: -- that I would have made the week 24 before. The entries on page 89 and 88, they are dated. 25 89 is from the 5th of September and I believe that refers


1 to my initial briefing information at the Pinery, and 2 viewing the binder of Project Maple. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And some updates from the 6th. And 5 then going back to the first page, 92. It looks like a 6 running total that I was keeping of my hours and expenses 7 incurred, et cetera. 8 And then some notations regarding weapons 9 transfers at the bottom. 10 Q: Okay. So that if we might, your -- 11 in your notes at Tab -- your regular notes at Tab 5, your 12 first entry is September 5th, 1995, and you were, at 13 14:00 hours, advised to attend London re required 14 Ipperwash; is that correct? 15 A: I'm sorry, you're back to another Tab 16 here? 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: Tab 5, yes. 19 Q: Tab 5. 20 A: Just a second. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the...


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I'm sorry to do this but if you go -- 4 if you go back to Tab 6 page -- the little drawings on 5 page 91 and 92, the map at 91 is -- is a drawing of the 6 Provincial Park, is that correct? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And it shows the Army Camp Road and 9 then there's an extension it's -- it appears to be 10 parking beside the extension leading up to the -- the 11 edge of the lake, is that correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then there's parking just below 14 that and that -- is that inside the Provincial Park? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then the next map at page 90 is a 17 map of the whole -- of the surrounding area, is that 18 correct? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And then there's some lettering by 21 Rawlings Road, Kettle Point and it's -- 22 A: IR. 23 Q: -- and -- 24 A: In a -- in a circle, Indian Reserve. 25 Q: Okay. And -- Okay. Back to Tab 5


1 the -- what did you do on September 5th when you were 2 advised that you should -- had -- you were going to be 3 called out to Ipperwash? 4 A: We were conducting some training so 5 we returned to London and prepared equipment. I also 6 attended the range and fired my MP-5 SD and my rifle -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: -- and confirmed them. At 16:00 I 9 ate and then at 17:00 we departed. 10 Q: And can you recall today -- can you 11 tell the Commissioner what -- can you recall today 12 independently what went on on the 4th -- I mean the 5th 13 and the 6th or do you require your notes to assist you? 14 A: Through the whole -- through both 15 days? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: I'd probably like to just sort of 18 cross-reference as we go along for the 5th or the 6th. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: But I can give a bit of a running 21 overview if you like or... 22 Q: Okay. Then when you arrived at -- in 23 the area you went to Pinery Park? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And were you briefed at Pinery Park?


1 A: Yes, I was. 2 Q: And can you tell us what you were 3 told at Pinery Park? 4 A: I believe at that time I received the 5 binders that I refer to later on. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: And the briefing, I've also taken 8 some notes that I've made as a result of that. 9 Q: And that's the notes -- 10 A: On -- 11 Q: -- at Exhibit P-1588, at Tab 6 page 12 89? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And can you just tell us? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: It says: 17 "Prior to departure to Pinery was 18 advised that last p.m..." 19 A: "At approximately 19:00 hours." 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: "Native Canadians occupied Ipperwash 22 Provincial Park [and then in brackets] 23 (claim it's a burial ground)." 24 Q: And who told you that, sir? 25 A: I -- I couldn't tell you that today.


1 I'm -- it was -- I'm assuming it was part of a briefing I 2 received. 3 Q: And -- but do you recall would it 4 have been Kent Skinner or -- 5 A: Very likely. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: Very likely him. 8 Q: And then what else were you told? 9 A: "Some minor confrontations with 10 police. Damage to equipment. In one 11 (1) confrontation the butt of a rifle 12 was seen at the open trunk of a car 13 with a Native poised to pull it out." 14 And then my next notation is: 15 "Deployed to Pinery Park. Red binders 16 from Acting Staff Sergeant Skinner re: 17 Project Maple and also binders with 18 occupiers' info, occupiers of CFB 19 Ipperwash." 20 Q: And can you recall today what the 21 binder with occupiers' info, what it contained, Constable 22 Beauchesne? 23 A: Today? 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: Off the top of my head? No, it was


1 just general information on the parties and again 2 referring to my notes just listing people that were 3 involved in the occupation of the Base. 4 Q: And, do you recall, were there 5 photographs? 6 A: I believe there were but, again, I -- 7 I can't be certain. 8 Q: Okay. And the binder that Staff -- 9 Acting Staff Sergeant Skinner gave you was the binder 10 that contained Project Maple? 11 A: Yes. And that's how I've listed it. 12 Q: Okay. Then there's a note, the next 13 note after "Occupiers of CFB Ipperwash," what does that 14 refer to? 15 A: The next point I write is: 16 "Many with V [for violence], assault -- 17 assault police et cetera and weapons." 18 Q: And that's with respect to 19 information that was in the binder that you looked at? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And the next note is September the 22 6th, so we'll go back to that later. 23 On your notes for September the 5th it 24 appears that you were at Pinery Park, you've kitted up 25 there, and I take it that means put on your gear?


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And you were to be part of an IAP, 3 which I understand is immediate -- immediate action plan? 4 A: Yeah. Yes. 5 Q: And that's a -- it's also called an 6 Alpha team, is that correct? 7 A: You could use them interchangeably 8 almost. 9 Q: And on that evening you were teamed 10 with Kenneth Deane, Constable O'Halloran, Constable Klym, 11 and it says in plain van? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: What's that? 14 A: That's the vehicle we -- we had 15 available to us, we were going to use if we had to 16 deploy, and that's where our equipment was. 17 Q: And what was the colour of that 18 vehicle? 19 A: I -- 20 Q: Was that the white one (1)? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Was it -- 25 A: I -- I really can't recall what the


1 colour of that vehicle was. 2 Q: And, as I understand it, on that 3 evening you stood by and were off duty at 23:00 hours? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And the TRU team was not called out 6 that evening? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And on the afternoon of September the 9 5th did you go down to the area -- the intersection of 10 East Parkway Drive or Army Camp Road? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: Do you know if any other members of 13 your -- of the TRU team, the London TRU team went down to 14 the intersection of East Parkway Drive or Army Camp Road, 15 that area? 16 A: Not that I'm aware of, sir. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, we're -- 18 it's probably a good time to stop. I'm in your hands. 19 We can carry on but -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll stop 21 now and start again tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much. 25


1 (WITNESS RETIRES) 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, May 25th, at 9:00 5 a.m. 6 7 --- Upon adjourning at 5:28 p.m. 8 9 10 11 12 Certified Correct 13 14 15 16 ___________________________ 17 Carol Geehan 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25