1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 23rd, 2006 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 Amanda Rogers ) (np) Student-at-law 16 17 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 18 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 19 Kevin Scullion ) 20 21 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 22 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 23 Colleen Johnson ) 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 5 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 6 7 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 8 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 9 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 10 11 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 12 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 13 Jennifer McAleer ) 14 15 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 16 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 17 18 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 19 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 3 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 4 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 5 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 6 7 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 8 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 9 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 10 11 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 12 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 13 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 14 Ian McGilp ) (np) 15 Annie Leeks ) (np) 16 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 17 Robyn Trask ) 18 Caroline Swerdlyk ) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 9 4 5 DENIS ALLAN LABLANC, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 13 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 156 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 159 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 223 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Colleen Johnson 240 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Sunil Mathai 260 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 281 13 14 CHRIS COSSITT, Sworn. 15 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 286 16 17 Motion by Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto and 18 The Aazhoodena and George Family Group 19 20 Presentation by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 319 21 Presentation by Mr. Julian Falconer 327 22 Presentation by Mr. Basil Alexander 361 23 Presentation by Mr. Ian Roland 362 24 Presentation by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 372 25


1 Table of Contents (cont'd) 2 Page No. 3 4 Reply by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 381 5 6 Reply by Mr. Julian Falconer 384 7 8 9 10 11 12 Certificate of Transcript 392 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 List of EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1549 Document Number 2005543. Resume of 4 Denis Allan LeBlanc. 14 5 P-1550 Document Number 2005609. Handwritten 6 notebook entries of Denis LeBlanc, 7 August 23-26, 1995. 23 8 P-1551 Document Number 2000810. Handwritten ERT 9 Operational Report, August 24, 1995. 31 10 P-1552 Document Number 2000812. Handwritten ERT 11 Operational Report, August 23, 1995. 32 12 P-1553 Document Number 2000818. Handwritten ERT 13 Operational Report, August 26, 1995. 33 14 P-1554 Document Number 2005610. Handwritten 15 notebook entries of Denis LeBlanc, 16 September 04 to October 09, 1995. 36 17 P-1555 Transcript of Region 01, Denis LeBlanc, 18 London Communications Centre, September 05 19 1995, 23:59 hrs, London Communications 20 Centre Logger tape number 085, Track 6 21 Disc 6 of 20. 48 22 P-1556 Document Number 2005330. Affidavit of 23 Denis LeBlanc in R. v. Deane, 24 August 03, 1998. 96 25


1 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1557 Document Number 2003677. Statement and 4 Interim Report of Denis LeBlanc, 5 September 07, 1995. 106 6 P-1558 Document Number 1005714. Anticipated 7 evidence of Constable Denis LeBlanc, 8 December 17, 1997. 116 9 P-1559 Document Number 2003676. Interview 10 report September 10, 1995. 147 11 P-1560 Document Number 2005545. Resume of 12 Christopher William Cossitt. 287 13 P-1561 Document Number 2005597. Handwritten 14 notebook entries of Chris Cossitt, 15 August 01-06; August 15-19; September 16 07-10; September 21; September 25-30; 17 October 03, 1995. 289 18 P-1562 Document Number 2000752. Emergency 19 Response Team-Operational Report 20 (Rusk/Cossitt) August 03, 1995. 294 21 P-1563 Document Number 2000758. Emergency 22 Response Team-Operational Report 23 (Cossitt/Sgt Huntley) August 05, 1995. 294 24 25


1 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1564 Document Number 2000766. Emergency 4 Response Team-Operational Report 5 (Cossitt/Weverink) August 07, 1995. 295 6 P-1565 Document Number 2000783. Emergency 7 Response Team - Operational Report 8 (Smith/Cossitt) August 15, 1995. 295 9 P-1566 Document Number 2000791. Emergency Response 10 Team - Operational Report (Smith/Cossitt) 11 August 17, 1995. 296 12 P-1567 Document Number 2000795. Emergency 13 Response Team - Operational Report 14 (Smith/Cossitt) August 18, 1995. 299 15 P-1568 Document Number 2000796. Emergency 16 Response Team - Operational Report 17 (Smith/Cossitt) August 18, 1995. 300 18 P-1569 Document Number 2005411. Handwritten 19 notebook entries of Chris Cossitt, 20 September 05-06, 1995. 305 21 P-1570 Document Number 1000471. Handwritten 22 notebook entries of Chris Cossitt, 23 September 06-07, 1995. 312 24 25


1 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1571 Document Number 2005606. Handwritten 4 notebook entries of Chris Cossitt, 5 page 60, September 06, 1995. 312 6 P-1572 Document Number 1000287. Statement of 7 C.W. Cossitt (undated). 317 8 1 (on Motion only): Notice of Motion of May 23, 2006, 9 "Edited Identities of Investigative 10 Apparatus." 327 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 10:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 7 everybody. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 Commissioner, we call as the next witness, 11 Denis LeBlanc. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. 18 LeBlanc. 19 MR. DENIS LEBLANC: Good morning, sir. 20 21 DENIS ALLAN LEBLANC, Sworn 22 23 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: Good morning, Officer LeBlanc. 25 A: Good morning, sir.


1 Q: Sir, you've been good enough to 2 provide us with a copy of your curriculum vitae. You 3 will find that at Tab 1 of the brief of documents in 4 front of you. It appears as Inquiry Document 2005543. 5 Could we just have a look at that 6 document. You'll find that again at Tab 1. 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: You've had a chance to take a look at 9 that and you acknowledge that that is your curriculum 10 vitae? 11 A: Yes, sir, it is. 12 Q: Perhaps we can mark that as the first 13 exhibit this morning, Commissioner. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1549, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1549: Document Number 2005543. 17 Resume of Denis Allan 18 LeBlanc. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: And just reviewing that document very 22 briefly, Officer LeBlanc, you had joined the Ontario 23 Provincial Police in February of 1987? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: All right. I wonder if you might


1 just tell us if you would please, the training that you 2 would have received upon joining the OPP? 3 A: When I started with the OPP I 4 reported to the Brampton OPP Academy. There was a basic 5 introductory probationary constable's course for three 6 (3) weeks. Upon completion there I reported to the South 7 Porcupine District Headquarters. I met the Command staff 8 there and then reported to the Hearst Detachment. 9 I was there for approximately two (2) 10 months prior to attending at the Aylmer Police College. 11 Attended at Aylmer for the -- back then it was the 'A' 12 Part training which was a nine (9) week training course. 13 On completion of that I returned to the Hearst Detachment 14 for a one (1) month period in the summer and then 15 returned to Aylmer for my 'B' Part. 16 Q: And the 'B' Part is further training 17 consisting of some six (6) weeks, is that right? 18 A: Yes, it is. It's a six (6) week 19 training period. 20 Q: All right. And your initial 21 assignment, I take it from what you've just told us, was 22 to the Hearst Detachment? 23 A: Yes, it is. 24 Q: And I understand that to have been 25 from March of '87 until April of 1991?


1 A: That's correct, sir. 2 Q: And you subsequently were transferred 3 to the Lucan or London Detachment in April of 1991, is 4 that right? 5 A: Lucan Detachment, yes. 6 Q: Just in terms of the initial training 7 that you had at the Academy, I understand that there was 8 a session on multiculturalism about dealing with citizens 9 from other cultures, other backgrounds. 10 A: That is correct. 11 Q: And is there anything that you can 12 tell us about that by way of -- by way of that training 13 in terms of how it identified the reactions of different 14 individuals in different circumstances? 15 A: It had to do with -- our -- our -- 16 recollection of that was it -- it introduced us to 17 different cultures. They basically us not to be 18 suspicious of people if they weren't looking at us all 19 the time, different cultures would look away. Some 20 people depending on what country they came from might 21 have a fear of police. 22 You might speak to the man of the -- the 23 head of the household who you think is going to be the 24 man but it's actually the woman. Different people are 25 going to have different reactions to the police based on


1 their background and where they were from. 2 Q: And in terms of that sort of general 3 overview, did you have occasion to have any other 4 detailed type of training, either in cross cultural 5 instances or otherwise? 6 A: There was just the multicultural 7 class that I recall at OPC. 8 Q: All right. And I note from your 9 curriculum vitae, sir, which is P-1549 -- do you see the 10 entry from July of 1992 to May of 1997? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: The last entry on the first 13 paragraph, "cultural sensitivity training specifically 14 towards First Nations people", in May of 1996. 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Had you any such training 17 specifically towards First Nations people prior to that? 18 A: Not training, no, sir. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: I understand that you were at the 23 Lucan Detachment and you remained there from 1991 until 24 2000? 25 A: That's correct, sir.


1 Q: And subsequent to that you have since 2 that date, that is, since 2000 you've been at the Forest 3 Detachment here? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And I understand that you are a 6 senior constable although you do act as Shift Supervisor? 7 A: That is correct. 8 Q: All right. Your curriculum vitae 9 would indicate that in 1992 that you joined the Emergency 10 Response Team? 11 A: Back then it was the Crowd Management 12 Search and Rescue Team, but that's correct. 13 Q: Crowd Management Search and Rescue. 14 All right. 15 And perhaps you can tell us a bit about 16 the training that you would have received in order to 17 become part of this as it was then known, Crowd 18 Management Search and Rescue Team? 19 A: At that time it wasn't as a 20 structured unit as much as the ERT Program is. When I 21 initially joined the team in 1992 it basically curtailed 22 of meeting, I believe it was every other month, for a one 23 (1) day training session. One (1) day would be on crowd 24 management formations; the next session would be on 25 search and rescue, mapping, compass, and orientation.


1 During that time it was basically 2 announced that there was the formation of the ERT Program 3 which was coming out. 4 Q: All right. And as part of that ERT 5 that was coming out did you receive any -- any training 6 specifically to the new ERT, if I can call it that, as it 7 was coming out? 8 A: In the fall of 1994 I attended at the 9 Meaford Military Base for a -- the ERT training course 10 which was a six (6) week course which includes crowd 11 management, search and rescue, containment. 12 Q: And it was a more formal-type course, 13 is that what I can take from that? 14 A: Very structured course, yes. 15 Q: Is that the notation that you have 16 in your curriculum vitae in the third paragraph where it 17 reads: 18 "Member of Western Emergency Response." 19 I'm looking at page 1 of that document, 20 sir. 21 A: Yes, it is. 22 Q: ERT training at Meaford Military Base 23 followed with quarterly training including up to date 24 training in crowd management, search and rescue, 25 containment?


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: As part of that did you have any 3 specific training with respect to the use of firearms? 4 A: Firearms was also part and parcel of 5 the training, the quarterly training that we did. 6 Q: All right. And if I can just ask you 7 to flip to the fourth page of your curriculum vitae, sir. 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And if you go down almost to the -- 10 the fifth bullet from the bottom, do you see that? 11 "During my service to the Emergency 12 Response --" 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: "-- Program I received training in 15 firearms, arrests and escort 16 techniques, VIP escort and protection?" 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And just below that I see that you've 19 indicated there: 20 "Detachment Firearms Officer December 21 '91 to July of 2000. 22 What -- what is that in -- what -- what 23 does that mean? 24 A: Upon my arrival at the Lucan 25 Detachment I was asked if I would assist in filing the


1 FAC program applications and conducting the background 2 investigations for people who were applying for a 3 firearms permit. 4 I was also responsible for maintaining the 5 prison -- or the property documents in relation to 6 firearms that were seized that were in the vault and that 7 was my responsibility while I was at Lucan until I 8 transferred to Forest. 9 Q: All right. The firearms training 10 that you would have received would that include -- 11 obviously it would -- it would be training in -- in 12 becoming proficient with the use of firearms? 13 A: It was extra training that we 14 normally received. Outside of being a standard officer 15 we also had range days in part of our quarterly training 16 for firearms proficiency. 17 Q: And what firearms would you be using? 18 What -- what did you become proficient in? 19 A: The Sig Sauer P-229 .40 calibre 20 pistol, the Remington 12 gauge pump action shotgun, and 21 the Ruger semi-automatic .223 calibre rifle. 22 Q: Would you have any training, sir, in 23 identifying the -- the gunshot reports of either of 24 these, or would you become familiar with the report of 25 any of these weapons you've just described?


1 A: Became very familiar with them, like 2 sound, with hearing protection and without hearing 3 protection. 4 Q: All right. Just lastly on your 5 curriculum vitae if we can go back to the cultural 6 sensitivity training that you've spoken to already 7 specifically towards First Nations people in May of 1996, 8 do you know whether or can you tell us whether this was 9 part of the ERT training or was it more specifically, or 10 more generally as simply a member of the OPP? 11 A: It was specifically part of the 12 quarterly ERT training which was set up after the 13 Ipperwash incident. 14 Q: Thank you. Let's move then to the 15 Ipperwash incident. I understand that you had some 16 familiarity, first of all, with the situation at Camp 17 Ipperwash, commencing in 1993? 18 A: Through the media, yes, sir. 19 Q: And what is it that you can recall 20 today that you became familiar with through the media? 21 A: Just that there was a -- people of 22 Stoney Point had reclaimed part of the Army Camp base in 23 1993 and were occupying it, had set up residences, and 24 that in -- I believe in 1995, that they had actually 25 taken over the Camp itself.


1 Q: And do you recall that the date of 2 the takeover of the Camp itself was July the 29th of 3 1995? 4 A: No, sir, I don't recall that. 5 Q: In August of 1995, you received a 6 callout as a member of the Emergency Response Team. Do 7 you have a recollection of that? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 Q: And perhaps you might just go ahead 10 and tell us what you can recall of that? 11 A: I received a -- a call from the 12 London Communications Unit advising that I was being 13 requested to attend as an ERT member. I was to report at 14 the Pinery Provincial Park in the meeting centre, and 15 received directions there in relation to Pinery -- or 16 Ipperwash Provincial Park, and that there had been 17 incidences at that location. And I was to receive a 18 briefing upon arrival. 19 Q: All right. What did you understand 20 the role of ERT would be? 21 A: At that time? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Upon receiving the briefing was to 24 basically maintain a police presence in and around the 25 Ipperwash Provincial Park; maintain the peace.


1 If we had occasion to have contacts with 2 anybody of First Nations to gather just information as to 3 who they were, people that were in the area. 4 Q: All right. Can I ask you to turn to 5 the documents you'll find at Tab 4 of the brief in front 6 of you. The report -- it's Inquiry Document 2005609, and 7 it purports to be copies of your notebook entries. 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: Do you recognise that? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: I take it you have your actual 12 notebooks there with you -- 13 A: Yes, I do. 14 Q: -- of corresponding same dates? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: All right. You see at the bottom of 17 page 8 -- now perhaps I can ask that this be marked as 18 the next exhibit, before we move off the matter. I 19 believe that to be -- 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1550, Your Honour. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Right. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1550: Document Number 2005609. 24 Handwritten notebook entries 25 of Denis LeBlanc, August


1 23-26, 1995. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: The entry at the bottom of the page, 5 Officer LeBlanc -- 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: -- "Re. ERT callout times four (4) 8 days at Ipperwash." 9 Am I reading that correctly? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: "Provincial Park re. Military..." 12 Is that Military? 13 A: "Military/Park problems." 14 Q: All right. And just read on there, 15 if you would, please. 16 A: It says: 17 "Stoney versus Stony/Kettle Point 18 Reserve. 05:30, OFD [which is off 19 duty]" 20 Q: All right. And -- and what does that 21 mean to you, Stoney versus Stony/Kettle Pointers? 22 A: Well, there's Stoney Point reserve 23 and Kettle Point/Stony Point Reserve. I'm not sure if 24 that's one reserve or if it's two (2). And I'm not sure 25 if it -- what -- I wasn't given information as to who


1 was actually -- it was just termed as occupiers that were 2 -- we were going there for. 3 Q: At this point in time, was there any 4 concern with respect to the Provincial Park? 5 A: That's why I was being dispatched to 6 that location, it was relation to the Provincial Park. 7 Q: All right. And what -- what was it 8 about the Provincial Park that you were made aware of? 9 A: There had been, in prior incidences, 10 where there was confrontations between people who were 11 camping on the Provincial Park and the occupiers and it - 12 - they were requesting a higher police presence in the 13 area, just to maintain the peace. 14 Q: Was there any suggestion at this 15 point that there was the potential for a takeover of the 16 Provincial Park as well? 17 A: I don't recall if that inform -- if I 18 had that information on my initial briefing or if that 19 was something I had learned later on. 20 Q: Did you receive, as part of your 21 initial briefing, any information as to the presence of 22 firearms in the Army Camp or in the hands of the 23 occupiers generally? 24 A: I don't have a clear recollection on 25 receiving specific information, but I think that was the


1 general consensus or the general information that I had 2 received. 3 Q: All right. At some point in time, 4 you were advised that the people occupying the Army Camp 5 had, in fact, given notice of their intention to takeover 6 the Provincial Park. 7 A: At some point I was aware of that, 8 yes, sir. 9 Q: And do you know when that might have 10 been? 11 A: No, sir. I -- I think I learned of 12 it after the fact. I don't recall then -- when that was. 13 Q: If I can just ask you to look at page 14 9 of your -- of your notebook, that it is the notebook 15 entry marked as Exhibit 1550. 16 Do see the entry at 11:00 hours to 11:45 17 hours? Perhaps you can just read that for us. 18 A: "Briefing. Objective is to protect 19 campers at Ipperwash Provincial Park. 20 Case of attempted takeover by Stoney 21 Point res. 22 Shift." 23 Q: Okay. If I can just stop you there. 24 It would appear that at least at this point in time, by 25 the 23rd of August, that there was some suggestion that


1 there might be a takeover of the Park as well. 2 A: Either a takeover or an incursion of 3 people into the Park. 4 Q: All right. You then -- subsequent to 5 that your notes would indicate that you did patrol that 6 area; August 23, 24, 25 and 26 of 1995? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: Can you just describe what your 9 activities were over that period of time? 10 A: During this time period I was 11 partnered with another ERT member. We conducted patrols 12 of the Ipperwash Provincial Park; Ipperwash area as well 13 as Port Franks area. 14 During that time we had occasion to stop 15 vehicles and speak to people within the Park. We spoke 16 to some of the people that were camping in the Park, that 17 were on the beach area. We conducted traffic stops in 18 and around the area as well, speaking to the people in 19 vehicles. It was basically maintaining a high 20 visibility. 21 Q: As well as doing these patrols, I 22 take it that's by vehicle, there was also foot patrols 23 that you would have engaged in? 24 A: Foot patrol and vehicle patrol, yes. 25 Q: And the foot patrols would occur


1 where? 2 A: Mostly in the Ipperwash Provincial 3 Park area. 4 Q: All right. You were aware during 5 that same period of time that there were OPP officers in 6 the Camp -- or in the Park as well, in undercover 7 capacity? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Had you any interaction with them at 10 all? 11 A: No, I did not. 12 Q: Is there anything that you can recall 13 from looking at your notes over the period of August 23rd 14 to the 26th that was remarkable? 15 A: Effectively it was conducting patrols 16 and speaking to people that were in the area. On one (1) 17 occasion I did speak to, I believe he was a Park Warden 18 or a Park worker who advised us that on reporting for 19 work, I believe it was that night, he had heard gunshots 20 in and around the area of the maintenance building, that 21 he had reported that incident to the, I believe, the 22 authorities. 23 Q: We're going to come to that in a 24 moment. But is it -- the entries in your notebook for 25 that period of time, for the most part, it was all quiet;


1 is that fair? 2 A: That's -- yeah it was -- 3 Q: And in addition to making your 4 personal notes, you also had occasion to complete, or 5 your partner did -- you were partnered with Sergeant 6 Grant? 7 A: Dan Grant, yes, sir. 8 Q: Either yourself or Sergeant Grant 9 would then fill out Emergency Response Team operational 10 reports. Do you recall that? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: And those were documents or at least 13 forms that were prepared specifically for the Ipperwash 14 patrols that were going on. 15 A: They were an operational report and - 16 - yes. 17 Q: At Tabs 5, 6 -- at Tabs 5 and 6, 18 Inquiry Document 2000810, there's an Emergency Response 19 Team operational report dated 24th of August 1995. It's 20 a shift from 15:00 to 23:00 hours. Do you see that? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And your name is mentioned there 23 together with Sergeant D. Grant? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Perhaps I can have that marked as the


1 next exhibit please. That would be P-1551. 2 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, P-1551. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Yeah Thank you, Mr. 4 Registrar. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 5? 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1551: Document Number 2000810. 9 Handwritten ERT Operational 10 Report, August 24, 1995. 11 12 MR. DONALD WORME: There's a name towards 13 the bottom at 17:49 hours; there's a name indicated 14 there. I'm going to ask, Mr. Registrar, that that name 15 be redacted of the driver of that particular vehicle. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: And that corresponds with the -- the 20 notes that you have in your notebook from that same 21 period of time? 22 A: I believe so, yes, sir. 23 Q: All right. Similarly, and I -- I 24 should have taken you to this earlier, there's a document 25 at Tab 3. Again it is an ERT operational report, the


1 date previous, that is August 23rd of 1995, shift from 2 20:00 to 04:00 hours. Again you're mentioned there 3 together with Sergeant Grant. Do you see that? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And you're off doing patrol again. 6 Perhaps we can mark that as the next exhibit, please. 7 THE REGISTRAR: 1552. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1552: Document Number 2000812. 10 Handwritten ERT Operational 11 Report, August 23, 1995. 12 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Similarly there's a 14 name of a driver at 02:20 hours that you've indicated on 15 there. Again, Mr. Registrar, I'm going to ask that that 16 name be redacted in the -- in the actual exhibit, please. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 But, Officer LeBlanc, that corresponds 21 with again your notes and your recollection of your 22 patrol from that particular day? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: I note that there is no operational 25 report for the 25th of August. Can you recall whether or


1 not, in fact, one was prepared for that date? 2 A: I don't recall, sir. 3 Q: At Tab 6 there is Inquiry Document 4 2000818, it's an operational report for the 26th of 5 August. 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Again you're mentioned together with 8 Sergeant Grant on shift from 20:00 hours to 04:00 hours. 9 I take it that was your regular shift for that period? 10 A: Yes, sir, it was. 11 Q: You'll note the entry at 21:00 hours. 12 Perhaps you can just go ahead and read that for us. 13 A: At 21:00, sir? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: "Noted Native patrol driving beach 16 using high intensity light out 17 passenger window. Patrolled area roads 18 and parking area." 19 Q: Okay. And then the entry at 24:30. 20 A: "Spoke with Park warden. Was advised 21 that at 24:00 hours he was driving by 22 CFB Ipperwash and heard several .22 23 calibre rounds being fired; further 24 that they would have from the work yard 25 [above in brackets it says,


1 "maintenance area"] and were fired into 2 the woods. Continued foot patrol in 3 Park. All was very quiet." 4 Q: Again that's consistent with the 5 report that you've just told us about that you had a 6 recollection of having spoken to a Camp warden? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Or Park warden, pardon me? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. If we can have that 11 marked as the next exhibit, please. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1553, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1553: Document Number 2000818. 15 Handwritten ERT Operational 16 Report, August 26, 1995. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: At Tab 2, Officer, this is an excerpt 20 from a number of documents or copies of CFB intelligence 21 reports. It's already been marked as P Exhibit -- 22 Exhibit P-413. 23 And you'll see on the second page of that, 24 it's actually page 66, there's entries from the 24th of 25 August and onward. Again I'm going to suggest to you


1 that that -- those entries are consistent with what 2 you've reported to us, both from your notebooks as well 3 as from the occurrence reports? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: The two (2) entries where it says, 8 "Grant/LeBlanc" are consistent with my report, yes, sir. 9 Q: Yes. All right. Thank you. I'll 10 ask you nextly if you would turn to the notes at Tab 11 Number 8. 12 And perhaps I should just indicate, 13 Commissioner, there's a copy of Officer LeBlanc's notes, 14 a full copy -- a more fulsome copy in any event at Tab 15 Number 7. I will not be referring to those primarily 16 because they are reproduced at Tab Number 8, but moreover 17 that the notes at Tab Number 7 have not been redacted, 18 they contain much information about unrelated matters. 19 All right. 20 The notes at Tab 8, Officer LeBlanc, those 21 are your notebook entries from September the 4th and 22 onward? 23 A: Yes, they are, sir. 24 Q: And you have the actual notebooks 25 from that same period of time and can confirm for us


1 these are a real and true copy? 2 A: That is true, sir. 3 Q: I'd ask that that be marked as the 4 next exhibit then please? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1554, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1554: Document Number 2005610. 8 Handwritten notebook entries 9 of Denis LeBlanc, September 10 04 to October 09, 1995. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: You will recall that on the evening 14 of September the 4th there was an ERT callout? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And aside from the review of your 17 notes do you have any independent recollection of that? 18 A: I recall being called at my house; 19 advised to report to the Forest Detachment; that I'd be 20 meeting the rest of the Number 2 District ERT team. 21 Q: All right. Do you recall who it was 22 that would have given you the callout? 23 A: I believe it was from the London 24 Communications Unit. 25 Q: Okay. And I take it from that you


1 don't know specifically who might have performed that 2 task? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: Would it be usual that you would 5 called from your ERT leader? 6 A: Normally it was from the 7 Communications Unit. 8 Q: Okay. All right. You indicated 9 that, as a result of this call out, you attended at the 10 Forest Detachment? 11 A: Yes, sir, I did. 12 Q: Your notes would indicate your 13 arrival at the Forest Detachment at a particular hour. 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And when was that? 16 A: At 22:20 hours. 17 Q: I'm sorry, pardon me? 18 A: At 22:20 hours. 19 Q: Okay. What happens when you report 20 then to the Forest Detachment? 21 A: On my arrival there, I met up with 22 Constable Lima as well as P/C Sword. We were the first 23 officers to arrive. We basically waited for the rest of 24 the team to arrive. At that time, we were provided with 25 some directions, a briefing, as to why we were there and


1 we were given assignments. 2 Q: Tell us about that briefing, if you 3 would, please. First of all, do you recall who would 4 have done the briefing? 5 A: No, sir, I don't recall. 6 Q: Can you recall what it was that the 7 briefing was about and the assignments that you would 8 have received? 9 A: The generality of the briefing was is 10 that there had been a confrontation between the Number 1 11 District ERT members and occupiers who are -- moved in to 12 the Ipperwash Provincial Park. They had confronted the 13 police officers that were in the Park at the time who 14 backed out and left the Park, upon the campers leaving. 15 And at the time, they were in possession of the Ipperwash 16 Provincial Park. 17 Q: And the objective of the callout, do 18 you know what the objective -- 19 A: At that time -- 20 Q: -- would have been? 21 A: -- was -- at that time we were -- 22 directions we were given was to set up police 23 checkpoints, to maintain a high police visible presence; 24 speak to people, advising them of what was going on at 25 the Provincial Park if they were going in that direction;


1 and just negotiate a peaceful resolution. 2 Q: If I can ask you to turn to your page 3 40 of your notebook; that's the second page in. Just to 4 the top of -- pardon me, of the -- about the midway -- 5 just before the -- the middle of the page there's an 6 arrow that says: 7 "objective: to continue [pardon me] to 8 contain and negotiate a peaceful 9 resolution." 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And that's what you've just testified 12 to, as being the generality of the instructions received? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: It goes on to read, "Broken into 15 teams", and then does that say, "Partner Harry"? 16 A: Yes, sir. It's Constable Harry 17 Marissen. 18 Q: You go on to identify different 19 locations of checkpoints. 20 A: That is correct. 21 Q: And I take it that you were assigned 22 to one of those checkpoints? 23 A: Yes, I was. 24 Q: And that was? 25 A: At Checkpoint 'C', Checkpoint


1 Charlie. 2 Q: Where was that located, to your 3 recollection? 4 A: Checkpoint Charlie was on Army Camp 5 Road in front of a campground. It was in close proximity 6 to Matheson Drive, which is a service laneway leading 7 along the outside perimeter of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 8 Q: And I note that, if you turn over to 9 your next page, at page 41, the entry at the top of the 10 page is: 11 "Very quiet." 12 I take it that's an indication of the 13 night's events? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: At checkpoint -- at Checkpoint 16 Charlie, that you were located at? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: All right. You subsequently --it 19 looks like you went off -- off-duty at 10:00 hours or ten 20 o'clock in the morning on the 5th of September. 21 A: Yes, sir, I did. 22 Q: Would that be right? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Okay. And you reported back to duty 25 at what time?


1 A: I commenced my shift at five o'clock 2 that evening, sir. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: 17:00 hours. 5 Q: And perhaps you can just go ahead and 6 tell us what, after going on-duty at 17:00 hours, what 7 your assignments were and what you did? 8 A: We prepared for our shift; attended 9 at the Forest Detachment. There we were given a 10 briefing. I was assigned on that day to Checkpoint 11 Delta. I was advised of the Members that I would be 12 accompanied by that would be at that location. 13 In total, there was eight (8) officers. 14 We attended that -- the location of Checkpoint Delta 15 which was on Army Camp Road to the lake side of 21 16 Highway. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: There we conducted a static 19 checkpoint, speaking to the vehicles that were coming 20 and leaving on Army Camp Road. 21 Q: There's an entry at 23:45 hours of 22 your notebook. 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And what does that tell us about? 25 A: 23:45 there was a report on the radio


1 system advising that Checkpoint Charlie had received 2 damage to a window by rocks being thrown, by people in 3 the woods. 4 Q: All right. And if you'd just 5 continue on there, there are further entries at 23:50. 6 A: Yes, again on the radio was 7 Checkpoint Charlie. It advised, I believe the person on 8 the radio was P/C Parks, of hearing automatic gunfire. I 9 have a notation of thirty (30) to fifty (50) rounds. 10 Q: And would you have been making these 11 notes as you hear these reports coming over the radio? 12 A: As soon as was feasible to do so. 13 Q: All right. And all I'm getting at is 14 the -- the entry you have there of thirty (30) to fifty 15 (50) rounds; how certain are you about that? I mean 16 might it have been fifty (50) to a hundred (100) rounds 17 or any other such number? 18 A: At the time that was what my 19 recollection was that -- what I wrote down. It could 20 have been more. It could have been a different number. 21 I don't recall what I was doing at the time the broadcast 22 was made, but I'm sure I wasn't scribing the broadcast as 23 it was being made I guess. 24 Q: That's fair enough. And if I can ask 25 you to turn to -- the document at Tab 9. It is a copy of


1 the Ipperwash checkpoints, September 5th and 6th, 1995. 2 It's been marked as Exhibit P-1228. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And you see where it has the 'C'. I 5 take it that's Checkpoint Charlie. It's adjacent to 6 Matheson Drive on Army Camp Road? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And you see where 'D' is marked. 9 It's on Army Camp Road just above what's been called the 10 built-up area? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And is that consistent with your 13 recollection and what you've described as the location of 14 Checkpoint Delta? 15 A: It -- on the map here, it's off. My 16 recollection was it was between the entrance to the Army 17 Camp and 21 Highway. 18 Q: And did -- 19 A: On the map here it would be further 20 on the way to the lake. 21 Q: When you're at Checkpoint Delta, do 22 you have occasion to make any observations or any reports 23 about what's going on inside the Army Camp? 24 A: Yes, sir. After our arrival there, 25 at approximately 8:30 or 20:30 hours --


1 Q: You're referring to your notes now 2 are you, at page 21? 3 A: Yes, sir, I am. Just to affix the 4 time. 5 Q: All right. Carry on. 6 A: There was a few people who had 7 initially gathered across the fence from where we were 8 located, our checkpoint was stationed; that number 9 commenced growing, there was more vehicles that were 10 showing up. 11 And then after a bit of time, there was 12 somebody pointing a spotlight in our direction or at us, 13 lighting us up. There was -- someone had shouted 14 something about why are we blocking the highway -- or 15 blocking the highway. I recall that. 16 A short period after that somebody started 17 playing drumming music or chanting music on some sort of 18 a tape player, a PA system. 19 Q: Did you or the other officers that 20 you would have been with -- I think you told us there was 21 some eight (8) officers in total at that checkpoint? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: Did you or -- or the others to your 24 knowledge, have any occasion to comment back to these -- 25 to the people that were on the other side of the -- the


1 fence? 2 A: I don't recall if there was. I know 3 I didn't make any comments back to the people on the 4 fences. Nobody really there to talk to us. It was a 5 gathering of people behind the vehicles which were parked 6 along the fence line. 7 Q: And in relation to the lights that 8 were being shone on the officers at the checkpoint, what 9 was done in response to that? 10 A: I believe a light was shone back at 11 them. Just -- it was basically a blinding white light 12 that was being shone at us so we were just curious as to 13 why it was being put on us. So we lit up the area with 14 the -- I believe it was the spotlight on the car. 15 Q: You've already told us that you had 16 heard reports of cruiser windows at Checkpoint Charlie 17 being damaged and these reports by Constable Parks of 18 automatic gunfire having been heard from within the Park? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Did you form any opinion as to what 21 was going on, particularly in relation to the tensions 22 that may or may not have existed at that point? 23 A: My recollection was that -- I mean, 24 there was obviously a concern as far as our safety as to 25 what was happening or going to happen. The report of the


1 gunfires coming in at -- after 23:00 hours just kind of 2 elevated our -- our attention quite a bit as to what was 3 going on with the occupiers who were on the other side of 4 the fence and that -- 5 Q: And how did you feel about all of 6 this? 7 A: I was concerned. Didn't know if it 8 was going to be an escalation, if there was going to be 9 other gunfire that was going to occur or not. Basically 10 we just maintained our -- our presence, conducted our -- 11 our checkpoints. 12 Q: In terms of this concern that you 13 felt did you take any measures to perhaps try to conceal 14 yourself or take cover behind your vehicle, any such 15 thing? 16 A: My recollection was is that we 17 basically limited the amount of officers that were 18 standing out on the roadway doing the checkpoint or 19 speaking to people at that time. Some of the officers 20 were behind cruisers in case something happened. 21 Q: Do you recall whether you had any 22 discussion with any of the other officers you were with 23 about what measures you would take in the event that 24 there was gunfire? 25 Did -- did you have any such discussion,


1 first of all? 2 A: I don't believe so, sir. Not that I 3 recall. 4 Q: I'll ask you to turn to the document 5 you will find at Tab 10 of the brief in front of you, 6 that is part of the logger tape. It's Region 01. It's 7 dated September 5th of 1995 and the time stamped at 23:59 8 hours. 9 You've had a chance to read that before 10 coming here this morning? 11 A: This morning, yes, sir. 12 Q: And that's yourself calling from the 13 Lucan Detachment to the London Communications Centre? 14 A: I identified myself as from Lucan 15 Detachment, yes. 16 Q: And what does this tell us, if you 17 can just go on and then tell us about it? 18 A: It's a radio call to the London 19 Communications Unit. I was checking on the status of 20 Mark Wells who was a fellow OPP officer from the Lucan 21 Detachment who was also on the ERT team. 22 I hadn't seen Mark at the briefing earlier 23 that evening or at the checkpoint and I was just 24 confirming that he was actually called out. I was aware 25 that he was on a training course at the Aylmer Police


1 College when this callout occurred. 2 I believe I made a direction that they 3 call Aylmer Police College in order to determine if he 4 was actually called out or not or if he was aware of the 5 call. 6 Q: All right. And just look at the 7 entry at the bottom of that page where it says, "DL". 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: "I want you to call the 10 Commissionaire at the front desk of OPP 11 Aylmer, confirm that he has been 12 notified, and if he hasn't been he has 13 to be notified. We need him here, 14 okay? 15 That's what you've just told us about is 16 it? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: I'd ask that that be marked as the 19 next exhibit, please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1555, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1555: Transcript of Region 01, 23 Denis LeBlanc, London 24 Communications Centre, 25 September 05 1995, 23:59 hrs,


1 London Communications Centre 2 Logger tape number 085, Track 3 6, Disc 6 of 20. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: If we go back to your notes, Officer, 7 I take it that that is the last entry you have for the 8 day of the 5th of September? 9 See your entry at the bottom of page 42, 10 and the last entry there is at 23:50 hours: 11 "Checkpoint 'C' advised." 12 And that's -- you've already told us about 13 the report coming in from Officer Parks regarding the 14 automatic gunfire? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: Okay. And at page 43 your entry at 17 00 -- is that three zero (30)? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Okay. That'd be 12:30 in the a.m. on 20 the 6th now of September, 1995? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: All right. Is there anything that 23 occurred during the course of -- of that morning that you 24 can tell us about in relation again to your particular 25 tour?


1 A: In relation to 00:30, sir? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Just that I'd had at that time also 4 made a phone call or a radio communications in relation 5 to notifying Detective Constable Peer and Constable 6 Wilson in relation to a preliminary inquiry which was to 7 occur that morning and that I wouldn't be prepared to 8 attend that. I wasn't the investigator officer but I was 9 just an assisting officer for -- 10 Q: You were -- you were, in any event, 11 relieved of -- of that obligation to testify at this 12 particular court proceeding? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: All right. And I understand that on 15 the morning of the 6th then you would have been in the 16 company of others to attend down to the parking lot area 17 of the Provincial Park to remove picnic tables? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Can you tell us about that, please? 20 A: Upon being relieved at the 21 checkpoint, I returned to the Forest Detachment. There I 22 learned that, during the course of the evening, there had 23 been picnic tables placed in the parking lot at the end 24 of Army Camp Road, and that we were going to assemble at 25 the Tactical Operations Centre and then walk down to the


1 end of Army Camp Road and there we would be removing or 2 clearing that parking lot for its use for that day. 3 Q: Is that what happened? 4 A: Basically, sir, yes. 5 Q: All right. So you assembled at the - 6 - at TOC? 7 A: At the Tactical Operations Centre. 8 Q: And walked down? 9 A: I believe so. 10 Q: Yeah. Did you make any observations 11 about anybody at the tables that you were to remove on 12 arriving there? 13 A: As we came into the parking lot, I 14 recall seeing two (2) males sitting on the picnic table. 15 When they saw us, they basically got up and ran in the 16 direction of the Provincial Park. And there's a 17 confectionary stand, or a general store; they ran in that 18 general direction. 19 Q: Do you recall how many tables were 20 there, how they might have been set up? 21 A: No, sir. I recall there was some 22 picnic tables there; that's about all I recall about it. 23 Q: You -- you participated -- 24 A: I don't recall how they were set up. 25 Q: I'm sorry?


1 A: I don't recall how they were set up. 2 Q: Thank you. And you participated in 3 the removal of these picnic tables? 4 A: Yes, sir, I did. 5 Q: Okay. Anything beyond that, that you 6 can tell us about? 7 A: That was it. I recall loading a 8 picnic table, I think, onto a hay wagon. And I believe 9 there was a fire pit there that we -- we cleaned up as 10 well, in the parking lot. 11 Q: Did you recognize the individuals 12 that you've described as being at or on the picnic tables 13 on your arrival? 14 A: No, sir. I didn't know who they 15 were. 16 Q: And did you see whether or not they 17 had, besides running into the Park, did anything? 18 A: I believe one (1) male had thrown a - 19 - a beer bottle, kind of straight up, when he ran, it 20 landed close to where he was sitting. And that was about 21 it. He just threw the bottle and -- and ran. 22 Q: All right. After assisting in the 23 removal of these tables, what did you do? 24 A: I returned to the Detachment and we 25 went off-duty.


1 Q: When you returned to the Detachment, 2 did you have a briefing or a debriefing at that point in 3 time? 4 A: Not that I recall, sir. 5 Q: All right. You went off-duty then, 6 at 10:00 hours; is that correct? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Is that the entry at the middle of 9 the page of your page 44? 10 A: Yes, it is. 11 "10:00 hours, OFD [off duty]." 12 And then in brackets it says: 13 "(seventeen (17) hours total.)" 14 Q: I'm sorry, say again? 15 A: It says: 16 "(Seventeen (17) hours total.)" 17 That was the length of the shift that day. 18 Q: And that's just an indication of the 19 -- the time that you would have put in on that particular 20 shift? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: It continues on, the 6th of 23 September. I take it you came back on duty at 18:00 24 hours, as is indicated there? 25 A: Yes, sir.


1 Q: Officer in charge, that's: 2 "O/IC, Inspector Linton." 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And "L-2", I take it that would be 5 his second? 6 A: Lima 2 would have been the officer 7 that we reported to, the ERT team would have reported to, 8 which was Sergeant Van Damme. 9 Q: Thank you. And the next entry on 10 that? 11 A: Accompanied, that's "acc.", that's 12 "Harry", which is Constable Harry Marissen. 13 Q: And then at 18:30 hours, once you 14 report to the Forest OPP Detachment, the entry reads: 15 "Briefing by Sergeant Korosec, ERT." 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: What do you recall about that 18 particular briefing, Officer? 19 A: There was some information conveyed, 20 I -- from Sergeant Korosec. We were advised that we were 21 being issued new ASP batons to replace the hickory batons 22 which we had. 23 We were given directions on how to 24 properly expand and collapse the ASP baton. And during 25 that time, we were also provided with other updated


1 information in relation to the Ipperwash Camp. 2 Q: Okay. Let's come -- we'll come to 3 the updated information on the Ipperwash Camp. Tell us a 4 little bit more about the ASP baton that was issued. 5 I take it from that, you hadn't received 6 or hadn't used that particular instrument before? 7 A: No, sir. It was a new piece of kit 8 to me. 9 Q: And were you told anything about its 10 use as to whether or not it was -- I'm not sure how to 11 put it, perhaps more efficient or less efficient than the 12 hickory baton previously carried by the ERT? 13 A: I recall basically receiving 14 instructions that it was replacing the -- the hickory 15 baton and it was collapsible and compact. 16 We could carry it on our duty belts and 17 therefore would have it with us all the time, whereas 18 with the hickory baton it was a bit of an obstruction 19 when you're doing general patrol or if you were assigned 20 to a duty. 21 Looking at it, I mean it -- it's a smaller 22 diameter and it's made of metal instead of -- of wood so 23 it -- naturally I'd assume it would be more efficient as 24 far as being comp -- more of a compact area when you hit 25 with it. I don't recall if we received other directions


1 than that. 2 Q: Did you receive any directions as to 3 where this instrument would be applied or could be 4 applied? 5 A: The direction was it was the same -- 6 the be used the same as the hickory baton. In other 7 words it was to be used for the extremities. It wasn't 8 used for the -- the head which was the -- the standard 9 protocol for the -- the wooden baton. 10 The only difference would be is that with 11 the collapsible baton you cannot do a jab, a forward jab 12 with it, because it would collapse. 13 Q: All right. I'm going to ask you just 14 to look at the document at Tab Number 11. It's an 15 excerpt from Exhibit 426 which we were told are scribe 16 notes from this particular period. And if you turn to 17 the second page in -- that's at Tab 12, pardon me. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: The second page in is page 68 which 20 is again the same exhibit, P-426. And it says, "Briefing 21 at" -- at least the heading reads: 22 "Briefing at 18:12 hours with command 23 members." 24 First of all, I take it you're not part of 25 the command member --


1 A: No, sir. 2 Q: -- structure? You've had a chance to 3 read this before coming here today? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And do you recall receiving any of 6 this type of briefing? 7 Is there anything in here that stands out 8 for you as part of the briefing that you've told us about 9 that was conducted at the Forest Detachment at 18:38 10 hours by Sergeant Korosec? 11 A: Not in relation to the information on 12 this page, sir, no. I don't have a recollection of that. 13 Q: And you see the entry right at the 14 bottom of that page, at page 68? And it reads: 15 "Les Kobayashi heading off to Sarnia 16 tomorrow at 8:15. Court at 9:00 a.m. 17 for emergency injunction. Want this 18 kept quiet. Arranging for extra court 19 security. Hopefully an injunction 20 tomorrow." 21 Do you see that? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: Do you recall any type of briefing 24 like that, that there was an application being made for 25 an emergency injunction?


1 A: I was aware of a court injunction. 2 We were advised that there wasn't any court injunction at 3 that point during the briefing. I wasn't aware that Les 4 Kobayashi was involved in it, or who was actually 5 applying for it. 6 Q: All right. And I'm going to ask you 7 to turn to your -- to your notes, but before I do if you 8 can just flip over to the next page at page 69 of Exhibit 9 426, the last entry just before 18:37 hours. Do you see 10 that: 11 "STAN KOROSEC: Use night vision and 12 keep an eye?" 13 A: The very last line, sir? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Yes, sir, I see that. 16 Q: All right. And I take it that that 17 part of the instruction that perhaps you might have 18 received in this briefing, that you were obviously to 19 keep an eye out and use night vision equipment? 20 A: Well, be vigilant and alert and 21 head's up was the direction we received. I wasn't aware 22 of any night vision use. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: I wasn't -- 25 Q: Did you have any such equipment to


1 enable -- to enable you to -- to make those kinds of 2 observations in the dark? 3 A: No, sir, I didn't. 4 Q: If I can ask you to turn back to your 5 notes then at Tab Number 8, it's Exhibit 1554, and in 6 particular your entry at page 44. 7 See the -- the entry just following 18:30 8 hours? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: It says: 11 "No court doc yet." 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You see that. And that's consistent 14 with with you've just told us about, about Mr. Kobayashi 15 seeking an injunction? 16 You weren't aware particularly it was him 17 but simply that an injunction -- 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sir, the Witness didn't 19 say that. The Witness didn't say anything about 20 Kobayashi or seeking an injunction. He didn't say -- he 21 didn't know about seeking an injunction. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He didn't 23 know about it. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: I thank My Friend for 25 that.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 2 right. That's right. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 5 Q: I was just about to indicate to the 6 Witness that in fact you didn't -- you weren't aware that 7 -- of the particulars of that, simply that there was an 8 application for a court order; is that fair? 9 A: I just knew that there was an -- 10 there was somebody who was making an application for some 11 type of an injunction. 12 Q: And so your entry at page 44: 13 "No court doc yet." 14 That's consistent with what you 15 understand? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: All right. And it goes on to 18 indicate: 19 "Issued ASP batons and update." 20 You've already told us about the ASP 21 batons. And I was going to ask you about the updated 22 information on the Ipperwash matter. 23 Perhaps you can go ahead and tell us about 24 that now. 25 A: Just prior to departing the Forest


1 Detachment to my assigned checkpoint, we were given an 2 update that there had been a report of small arms fire at 3 the Ipperwash Provincial Park or that area. 4 I -- I don't recall if that was 5 information that had just come in or it was just 6 information that was being given to us at that time. 7 Q: And can you continue on the page; 8 that is your page 45. 9 A: Yes. I was assigned to Checkpoint 10 Bravo which is the East Parkway and Ipperwash Road. And 11 there I was again paired with Constable Harry Marissen. 12 Q: And I take it you would have relieved 13 other officers that were already stationed at that 14 particular checkpoint? 15 A: I believe so, sir. 16 Q: All right. There's a document at Tab 17 11, it's been marked as P-1253. It's apparently an 18 exhibit that has been marked by Officer Mark Gransden. 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Do you see that? And it would appear 21 that 'B' or Bravo Checkpoint -- this is again checkpoints 22 for September 6th and 7th '95. You've told us that Bravo 23 was located on East Parkway adjacent to Ipperwash Road, 24 yes? 25 A: Actually I made an error when I said


1 East Parkway. It would have -- according to this map, 2 it's West Parkway. 3 Q: Yeah. And that's what I was just 4 going to ask you about whether or not you have a 5 recollection of where that was; whether in fact it moved 6 and if you know when it might have moved? 7 A: I don't know, sir. It was at the 8 intersection. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: In any event let me -- let me ask you 13 this, whether you were on the east side or west side of 14 Ipperwash Road? 15 A: I was actually on Ipperwash Road, 16 sir, at the intersection. 17 Q: Okay. Thank you. And I think what 18 Mr. Millar has just informed is that perhaps there's an 19 error in this map where it's indi -- where it indicates 20 East Parkway Drive -- pardon me, West Parkway Drive, that 21 should in fact be East Parkway Drive; is that right? 22 A: Yeah -- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, that's right. 24 It's actually -- I think we substituted and unfortunately 25 it didn't get in here, a new map that -- as that exhibit


1 number. 2 But the East -- this is incorrect, West 3 Parkway should be East Parkway and East Parkway should be 4 West Parkway. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. I 6 appreciate that. 7 THE WITNESS: In that case on the -- on 8 this map I was located on West Parkway and in actual fact 9 it was at East Parkway intersection. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: All right, thank you, sir. You are 13 partnered with Constable Marissen again, yes? 14 A: Yes, sir, I was. 15 Q: And if we turn to your page 45 -- 16 page 45 of your notes at -- again at Tab Number 8. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And there's an entry there that you 19 then move from Checkpoint Bravo. 20 A: Yes, we were actually directed to 21 move from the East Parkway intersection of Ipperwash Road 22 to the West Parkway. 23 Q: And do you know why that direction 24 came? 25 A: No, sir.


1 Q: All right. Continue. 2 A: And then we were redirected again to 3 move to the, basically, the top of a hill which is just 4 north of East Parkway -- pardon me, West Parkway, closer 5 to the lake. 6 Q: All right. Carry on and tell us what 7 it is that happened next. 8 A: After that we were redirected to 9 Checkpoint Alpha in order to backup Constable Sword and 10 Lima, Constable Bittner and Atchison. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: We relocated at that point to the -- 13 it would be the west entrance of the Provincial Park 14 area, identified as the Tactical Operation Centre. 15 Q: All right. You were operating a 16 cruiser at that point in time. Would that be a marked 17 cruiser? 18 A: Yes, sir. During the course of this 19 evening I had changed vehicles from a police cruiser to a 20 prisoner van. 21 Q: And do you know when that occurred 22 and why? 23 A: It was in the early evening. I don't 24 recall what the reason was behind it; if it was a 25 logistics reason or the fact that Constable Bell and


1 Constable Lorch had a prisoner van and they were at a 2 checkpoint that they didn't want a van at; they would 3 rather have a cruiser. 4 I -- I surmised that that was the reason, 5 but I -- I really don't know, sir. I just recall that I 6 ended up with the van. 7 Q: But in any event, you took over the 8 operation of the prisoner van? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And I think you had indicated the 11 early -- early hours or the early evening hours of -- of 12 September the 6th? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Prior to your being instructed to 15 attend at Checkpoint Alpha, and I understand that -- that 16 the previous checkpoint was moved. 17 You have an entry at 18:50 hours: 18 "Move north to Wally's." 19 I think that's been described to us as 20 Wally Gators. 21 A: Yes, sir, Wally Gators. 22 Q: I think you've already confirmed for 23 us that that -- that again moved to the top of the hill? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Just to the bottom of


1 page 45, officer, you're at the TOC centre now, you're in 2 the prisoner van? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And the entry just above that, I just 5 read to you, it says: 6 "Advised to unload van and follow first 7 prisoner van behind CMU." 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: Tell us about that, please. What 10 does -- what does that mean and what were your 11 instructions? 12 A: I received direction that I would be 13 driving a prisoner van following a second -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- following the first prisoner van 16 for the CMU movement. My directions were to keep my 17 headlights off and remain well behind the CMU, not to 18 impede them, and that I'd be transporting prisoners back 19 to the Tactical Operations Centre, if there were any. 20 Q: I take it from that, you understood 21 that the CMU was beginning to form up; that there would 22 be some advance toward the Park or at the Park? 23 A: I was aware there was going to be a 24 CMU formed up. I didn't know exactly where it was going. 25 Q: All right. Did you know why it was


1 being formed up? 2 A: No, sir. 3 Q: Okay. You were instructed to follow 4 the CMU unit. I take it you did that in the fashion that 5 you were instructed, that is with lights off? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: All right. Do you recall who would 8 have given you these instructions? 9 A: No, sir, I don't. 10 Q: Okay. Perhaps you can just go ahead 11 and tell us what happens? 12 A: Happened after this point? 13 Q: Yes, please. 14 A: I remember notifying my partner Harry 15 Marissen, that he was going to be driving another 16 prisoner van which was already located at the Tactical 17 Operations Centre. 18 Got into the van and we basically were 19 already waiting for the CMU to start walking down the 20 roadway. 21 We followed them at -- I was behind 22 Harry's van. We were following behind them at a various 23 distance. When we first started it was perhaps 50/80 24 metres, maybe even a little bit further, and then as we 25 proceeded down the road, we might have gotten closer a


1 little further back. 2 While we were walking down the road there 3 was a broadcast on the radio system. I took it that it 4 was from a TRU coordinator or a TRU team member, advising 5 that there was somebody on the roadway, and they 6 identified that person as being in possession of a 7 weapon. 8 At that point the CMU was brought to a 9 halt. I believe it was then confirmed that it was a long 10 gun that the person had. The CMU was directed off of the 11 roadway. 12 Basically they split in half, going to the 13 -- the ditch or the shoulder area of the road. We 14 remained on the roadway where we were with the vans. 15 There was a bit of time in between the 16 radio communications. It was identified then that the 17 male had a stick. At that time the CMU reformed back on 18 the roadway, and we commenced proceeding down the road 19 again on East Parkway, travelling easterly. 20 As we approached what I perceived to be as 21 a bit of a small 'S' bend in the road, I could see a 22 light being shone off of the trees, pointed down the 23 roadway in our general direction. 24 The light kind of appeared to be erratic. 25 As we came into the 'S' bend I realized that it was


1 actually the intersection of Army Camp Road and East 2 Parkway that -- that we were -- we were at. 3 At that time the CMU moved forward into 4 the parking lot area. I continued maintaining my 5 presence next to P/C Marissen's van, as the CMU moved 6 into the parking lot. 7 Q: And let me just stop you there, 8 officer, if I may. If we can just go back a bit. When 9 the CMU was forming up, you would have seen them forming? 10 A: Of -- yes. I saw a bunch of officers 11 in hard TAC lining up. 12 Q: Were you instructed or -- or did you 13 don your hard TAC equipment? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: And the reason for that? 16 A: I received no direction, I was just 17 told to drive the prisoner van. 18 Q: All right. You've told us a little 19 bit about radio communications. Perhaps you can just 20 tell us about the comms that you were on, the 21 communications that you were on, how you would have heard 22 the various things that you did hear? 23 A: I was wearing a portable radio system 24 which was basically supplied. We were fed through a 25 tower that was at the Tactical Operations Centre. There


1 was a radio in the van as well, a police radio. I don't 2 recall if it was on or not, or if I turned it on, because 3 I did have a portable on me which was working. 4 Is that what you wanted to know, sir? 5 Q: Yes, thank you. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: Aside from the CMU forming up in hard 8 TAC, you would have observed this. Do you know how many 9 of them, approximately? 10 A: No, sir, I don't know the number. 11 Q: Did you -- 12 A: I was aware that it was District 6 13 and 3. I was aware that two (2) of our officers, Bill 14 Bittner and Ken Aitchison, had also been reassigned from 15 the Checkpoint Alpha to assist the CMU. 16 Q: Okay. And why -- 17 A: So I believe there was -- 18 Q: Do you know why that was? 19 A: I believe it was just they needed 20 more officers in order to fulfill the CMU. 21 Q: All right. Do you know who was in 22 charge of the CMU? 23 A: I was -- believe I received 24 information, it was Acting Inspector Wade Lacroix. 25 Q: All right.


1 A: And there was a Staff Sergeant from 2 Number 3 District; at the time I didn't know his name. I 3 think later I'd learned it was George Hebblethwaite. 4 Q: All right. Thank you. And in terms 5 of your instructions to follow the CMU and to keep the 6 lights off, who -- who did you receive that instruction 7 from? 8 A: I don't recall, sir. 9 Q: You have some fairly detailed notes 10 on that. Can you tell us, first of all, just with 11 respect to your note taking practice, what was your 12 normal practice for maintaining your notebooks? 13 A: When it's feasible to make them at 14 the time you're receiving directions, or when you can, or 15 as soon as possible afterwards. 16 Q: All right. Do you know when you 17 would have made these particular notes? Now we're 18 talking about the time that you were just describing for 19 us, when you're following the CMU down the road? 20 A: In relation to the time when I'm at - 21 - following the CMU down the road, those notes would have 22 been made the following morning at the Forest Detachment. 23 Q: Thank you for that. You observed the 24 CMU forming up, right? 25 A: Yes, sir.


1 Q: You're familiar with the various 2 formations that they would take? 3 A: Yes, sir, I am. 4 Q: You have an entry at 10:36 hours at 5 page 46 of your notes. It says: 6 "TRU advised male out on road with 7 possible weapon." 8 I take it that's what that reads? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: You've already told us about that 11 incident. Did you see TRU prior to -- at any time that 12 evening? 13 A: No. No, sir. I was aware that TRU 14 was there. While I was at Checkpoint Alpha I saw a 15 stream of vehicles come in, which I thought one (1) of 16 them was a TRU suburban, but I did not have any contact 17 with any of the TRU team members up to this point. 18 Q: And at this entry at 10:36 hours, 19 first of all, I guess -- how do you know that -- that 20 that was the time that you've entered here And secondly, 21 how do you know that that was TRU? 22 A: When that broadcast was made I 23 remember -- I believe I made a notation on either a dash 24 pad or perhaps on the back of my hand, because I thought 25 it would be a significant time if it was something that


1 was developing. 2 Q: All right. You've told us about your 3 typical practice that you would make notes as soon as 4 practicable. You've just mentioned now you might have 5 made a note on your hand, or did you say a dash pad? 6 A: If I had a -- a field notepad on me, 7 which I would have been issued one at the time I was on 8 the ERT team, it would have been just used to make rough 9 sketch notes, or rough diagrams, or making notations in 10 relation to times. 11 I can't -- I don't have a clear 12 recollection if I made that time notation on my field pad 13 or if it was on a -- if there was even a dash pad in the 14 van, or if there wasn't, I may have made it on the back 15 of my hand. I know at the end of the day I had some 16 notes on my hand so. I can't recall though. 17 Q: And is it from -- 18 A: I can't recall though. 19 Q: Yeah, I'm sorry. And is -- 20 A: I can't recall -- 21 Q: Is it from these notes that you would 22 have then prepared these -- these notes as you've told us 23 the following day? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: All right. You're following the CMU


1 down the road towards the parking lot at the corner of 2 Army Camp Road and -- and East Parkway? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: All right. And you're already told 5 us that you can see a light at least shining on -- again 6 I -- I don't want to put words in your mouth, but did you 7 say on the foliage or it was erratically spotting around? 8 A: It was shining up on the top of the 9 trees down the roadway from where we were. 10 Q: Right. 11 A: And then shining down the roadway 12 towards our direction. 13 Q: Could you see what was going on from 14 where the lights were coming from? 15 A: No, I could not. 16 Q: All right. As you rounded the S 17 curve, as you've described it to us, what did you 18 observe? 19 A: As we came around the bend I realized 20 we were at the intersection, I could see a gathering of 21 people in the sandy parking lot area. There was just 22 gathering of people, I guess. 23 There was a fair amount of automobiles 24 which were in the Ipperwash Provincial Park itself. I 25 didn't see any vehicles in the sandy parking lot. I


1 believe there was a fire that was -- as well, some sort 2 of a fire and it was burning near the confection stand. 3 Q: Would that be inside the Park or 4 outside? 5 A: Inside the Park. 6 Q: The individuals that you seen in the 7 Park, do you have an estimation or did you make an 8 estimation then? 9 A: No, sir, I didn't. 10 Q: Do you have any recollection today as 11 to how many individuals you might have seen? 12 A: There was -- it was a gathering 13 people, sir. I -- I wouldn't want to try to make a 14 guess. 15 Q: Thank you. The CMU, as it's going 16 down, what formation was it in? 17 A: As there going down the road? 18 Q: As you make these observations, 19 people in the Park, vehicles inside the Park, of a fire 20 in the Park? 21 A: I believe they were getting into a 22 cordon formation. 23 Q: We've had some evidence on that. Can 24 you just go ahead and tell us from there what happens? 25 A: As the CMU moves into the parking


1 lot, basically the whole cor -- the whole CMU moves 2 forward into the parking lot, they spread out from side 3 to side of the parking lot, is the easiest way to explain 4 it. 5 I believe there was a punchout which was 6 ordered by the -- it would have been probably from the 7 CMU Commander. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: At this point part of the CMU goes 10 forward, people that are in the parking lot are now going 11 over the fence into the Provincial Park area. They were 12 retreating back into the Park area. 13 Q: All right. Is it your recollection 14 that the people that were in the parking lot did not 15 retreat into the Park until the punchout? 16 A: I know there were people retreating 17 at that time. If there were some people leaving before, 18 I don't recall. 19 Q: All right. Did you hear any -- 20 anything that's going on as between the CMU that are 21 coming in and the people that are either in the Park or 22 retreating into the Park? 23 A: There was a lot of shouting that was 24 going on -- 25 Q: Could you make out any --


1 A: -- lot of noise. 2 Q: -- of the words? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: All right. How far up did you bring 5 your vehicle? 6 A: This time I basically continued 7 following the CMU. I would have approached the 8 intersection of Army Camp Road. I know -- I don't 9 believe I entered into the parking lot. 10 Q: You would have been on -- 11 A: So I stopped on the asphalt. I 12 stayed on the asphalt. 13 Q: Right. What about the other prisoner 14 van that was being operated by your partner, Officer 15 Marissen. 16 A: He stayed on my left side. And he 17 was basically just a bit ahead of me. 18 Q: When you say that there was a 19 punchout or that you -- there was a punchout ordered, I 20 take it that you would have heard this over the comms 21 you've described for us, that is your portable radio? 22 Or could you actually hear this on your 23 own? 24 A: I don't recall if I could hear it 25 outside -- from outside the van, as the windows in my --


1 on the driver's side was rolled down, or if it was on the 2 radio. 3 Q: Your window was rolled down? 4 A: On the driver side, yes. 5 Q: All right. All right. We understand 6 that there was no street lighting around in that parking 7 lot. Is that your recollection? 8 A: I don't have a recollection, sir, if 9 there was a streetlight or not. There was ambient light 10 from the confection stand. There was a bit of light 11 coming from the fire as well; it was a pretty good size 12 fire. 13 I don't recall if there was a street light 14 though. 15 Q: The vehicles that you've described as 16 inside the Park, do you know whether they had their 17 lights on or off? 18 A: I don't have a real -- I know they 19 weren't pointing them at me. I don't recall seeing 20 headlights pointing at me at that point. So I don't 21 recall, sir. 22 Q: Do you have any recollection of any 23 spotlights being employed, either by CMU or by the people 24 in the Park? 25 A: When we first arrived, I recalled


1 seeing a spotlight being shoned (sic) at the CMU. 2 Q: Right. 3 A: But that ended, basically upon our 4 arrival. I don't recall seeing a spotlight after that. 5 Q: Okay. So you've described a 6 punchout. What happens when -- when this occurs? 7 A: Identified unit, who were the forward 8 contact squad and left cover squad and a right cover 9 squad, the identified unit or the whole CMU team will go 10 forward. 11 It'll be usually to identified location as 12 far as how far forward the CMU commander wants them to go 13 forward. If it's -- in this case, I believe it was to 14 the fence. 15 The officers were ordered to do a punchout 16 so they basically went up stopping short of the fence, 17 which was the boundary for the Provincial Park. 18 Q: When they got to the fence, what 19 happens? 20 A: They stop at that point. 21 Q: Was there any contact as between the 22 CMU punchout and the people in the Park? 23 A: On the first time up, I don't recall 24 sir, if there was or not. At that point I was kind of 25 concentrating on being in position and making sure I


1 wasn't too far forward or too close to the other van. 2 I recall seeing the punchout. I knew that 3 they went forward and I had seen people going over the 4 fence. 5 Q: Carry on and just tell us from there 6 what happens. 7 A: At that point the -- someone over the 8 air shouting or over the radio system or it was a command 9 that -- to back up. After a given amount of time, that 10 contact squad, they moved back. 11 As they moved back the whole unit 12 basically was backing up. I was in a position where I 13 was -- I thought I was maybe a little bit too far 14 forward, so I thought I should be backing up as well. So 15 I backed the van up in order to give room for the CMU. 16 At this point they had spread up and were 17 taking up quite a bit more room than what they were 18 coming down the roadway. So at that point, I backed up 19 my van. I believe P/C Marissen -- I backed up in 20 proportion to where his van was. 21 Q: And do you recall where that might 22 have been, that you would have backed up to? 23 A: Just some distance away from Army 24 Camp Road. I really couldn't be specific. It was on 25 East Parkway.


1 Q: All right. We've had some testimony 2 of there being various objects thrown at CMU from inside 3 the Park. Did you observe any of that? 4 A: I observed items hitting the ground; 5 didn't identify what they were. I saw pieces of firewood 6 which was still -- they obviously came -- I believe they 7 came from the fire pit, they were still on fire. 8 I heard items or objects hitting the top 9 and the front of my van while I was front and then once I 10 had backed up, that continued. It kind of -- seemed to 11 be a continuous thing of items being thrown from the Park 12 area. 13 Q: Were they still striking your van 14 after you would have backed up to the -- 15 A: After I backed up -- 16 Q: -- position -- 17 A: -- as well, yes. 18 Q: All right. And the reason that you 19 backed up, again was, for what -- for what purpose? 20 A: In order to give the CMU more room as 21 they were backing up. 22 Q: I see. All right, tell us what 23 happens from there. 24 A: At that point, there was a command of 25 backing up. At that point, the people that were in the -


1 - the Park, the Provincial Park, started coming back over 2 the fence. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Basically, the CMU was a -- I guess 7 at the intersection of the sandy parking lot and the 8 roadway area. 9 They were told to hold that -- that 10 position for a while, and then it was the left contact 11 squad was ordered to do a punchout. And they went 12 forward to the area of the fence and then they were 13 ordered back at -- getting ahead of myself. 14 They went forward, and then the rest of 15 the CMU was also forward; still on the parking lot area. 16 They were ordered back in -- back only to 17 the edge of the asphalt. Once they were at the edge of 18 the asphalt, then they were ordered to hold. 19 At this point, we were -- I was just 20 observing as to what was going to happen. I wasn't 21 really sure. Then it became aware, I saw people that 22 were now coming over the fence from the Ipperwash 23 Provincial Park into the sandy parking lot area. 24 It seemed that they were waiting -- the 25 CMU was waiting to see if these people were going to come


1 into -- further into the parking lot which they did. 2 At that time there was a full punchout 3 which included all members of the CMU to go forward up to 4 the fence. When they did that they contacted the 5 protestors or the -- the occupiers in the sandy parking 6 lot. It's hard to describe, but basically as they were 7 going forward ,the protestors were coming forward, there 8 was numerous fights between the protestors and members of 9 the CMU, the front contact squad. 10 I observed one (1) male about the center, 11 maybe the center left of the CMU come actually into the - 12 - the formation and enveloped with officers that were in 13 the CMU. Normally that's not something we -- you want to 14 have happen. You try to keep it -- you don't want people 15 behind you if you're involved in a fight. You try to 16 keep everybody on the outside of that CMU formation if 17 you can. 18 At this point basically I'm watching all 19 the members in the front of the CMU involved in fights 20 with people that are coming over the fence or that had 21 come over the fence into the sandy parking lot. 22 As I'm watching it I see a person who's on 23 the ground in the middle of the CMU. I believed it, at 24 the time, that it was the same person that had come into 25 it -- I didn't -- one (1) of the protestors who had come


1 into the CMU. 2 I didn't see him go down to the ground or 3 how he got to the ground, but I saw officers converging 4 from the Arrest Team going to his location. And at that 5 time he was laying on the ground. I thought he was on 6 his back from -- from what I could see. 7 He appeared to be fighting with officers 8 who were trying to -- to take him into custody or to get 9 a hold of him. They were fighting back with him and he 10 was kicking. 11 This went on for a short period of time. 12 The officers converged on him or were on top of him and 13 then they picked him up and they carried him back towards 14 the edge of the roadway. 15 While this was going on we still had items 16 hitting the -- the top of the -- the front of my van. 17 There were still officers along the fence area who were 18 fighting with the occupiers. 19 I recall seeing the people that were 20 carrying the -- or the officers that were carrying the 21 man back to the edge of the asphalt. They were trying to 22 hang on to him but he was still fighting or squirming, 23 trying to get away from them. 24 They appeared like they were starting to 25 lose control. They looked like they had put him down


1 onto the groundway or at the edge of the asphalt. 2 I took it that they were at that point 3 handcuffing him. They just kind of basically leaned in. 4 They looked like they were getting his arms behind his 5 back. A few moments later or a bit of time later they 6 picked him up and they carried him back towards the 7 prisoner vans where myself and P/C Marissen were -- were 8 parked. 9 They carried the arrested person between 10 the two (2) vans, past my location and then went behind 11 my field of sight to the back of P/C Marissen's van. 12 Basically somebody opened up the doors. 13 I at that point I pulled ahead thinking 14 that there was going to be more arrests. They'd probably 15 be putting them into my van if there were more people. 16 Q: Did you say you pulled ahead or...? 17 A: I pulled ahead a bit, yes. 18 Q: All right. So you didn't see him 19 being put into the -- this person being put into 20 Marissen's van? 21 A: No, sir, I didn't. 22 Q: You've indicated that you -- this 23 individual who came into the group was again fighting 24 with the Arrest Team? 25 A: When they went to move into arrest


1 him, yes, sir. 2 Q: How do you know it was the Arrest 3 Team first of all? 4 A: Just the fact they were the officers 5 from the back of the CMU, that -- that's what originated 6 my attention to that way, is they were running forward. 7 They didn't have any shields. Some of the officers had - 8 - most of these officers had shields. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: These officers were using both their 11 hands, trying to get a hold of this man. They didn't 12 have a shield on, so I -- I'm presuming they were from 13 the Arrest Team. They might have put their shields down, 14 but I took it that they were from the Arrest Team. 15 Q: And when you say that these officers 16 were 17 fighting back with him what did you observe? 18 A: They were trying to get a hold of him 19 and he was kicking and flailing back at them. They were 20 trying basically to get a hold of this man. I recall 21 seeing that there was somebody with a baton. One (1) of 22 the officers had a baton and he had -- what I thought was 23 he administered a baton strike to the person on the 24 ground. 25 Q: How many strikes?


1 A: I saw probably two (2) motions that I 2 recall seeing. 3 Q: All right. From only one (1) 4 officer, is that your -- is that your recollection? 5 A: That's my recollection that it was 6 one of the officers I just saw that -- that motion. I 7 recall seeing it thinking that that -- they're using a 8 baton. 9 Q: Did you see any -- any of the 10 officers that you say converged on this individual on the 11 ground, administer any kicks to the person on the ground? 12 A: Not that I identified, sir, at the 13 time. Not that I recall, no. 14 Q: And beyond what you thought to be two 15 (2) -- perhaps two (2) blows, did you see any other 16 further contact made with this individual? 17 A: Just that they were fighting with him 18 and basically they ended up jumping on top of him and 19 turning him over to pin him. I guess is the easiest way 20 to try to explain it, it was a fight. 21 Q: And ultimately they grabbed the 22 person and moved him back. Did you see anybody grabbing 23 this individual by the hair for example? 24 A: No, sir, I didn't see that. I 25 thought when they -- they grabbed him, it appeared that


1 they had him by the arms and by the legs. 2 Q: And I -- I'm talking about before he 3 was handcuffed. 4 A: As he was being taken from the 5 parking lot to the end of the roadway? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: I didn't see that, sir, no. 8 Q: Once he was handcuffed did you see 9 anybody -- well did you see anybody have him by the hair 10 at any point in time? 11 A: Not that I recall, no, sir. 12 Q: Do your recall how many officers 13 might have been, as you say, converging on him and then 14 subsequently bringing him back to the prisoner van? 15 A: It was either three (3) or four (4) 16 officers. 17 Q: As you seen him go by you, right, I - 18 - I think you said he -- they had carried him between the 19 two (2) prisoner vans? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: Would that be right outside your 22 driver's window? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Did you make any observations about 25 this individual as to his condition or state?


1 A: No, sir. Just that he had seemed to 2 have given up or he wasn't fighting at that point when he 3 went by me. 4 Q: And you've told us that you observed 5 perhaps three (3) or four (4) individuals, officers, 6 converge on this person. Do you know their identities? 7 A: It's just they were members of the 8 CMU, sir. I don't know who they were. 9 Q: All right. Commissioner, I wonder if 10 this is a good place to take our morning break. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 We'll take our morning break now. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 14 for fifteen (15) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 11:26 a.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 11:44 a.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 23 Q: Officer LeBlanc, you told us that the 24 CMU then backed up to the paved part of the road; is that 25 -- that's right, is it?


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And you made the observation of the 3 prisoner being taken past you out of your line of vision 4 and put into the prisoner van Number 1 operated by your 5 partner Officer Marissen. 6 A: Yes, that's correct, sir. 7 Q: What's the next thing that you 8 observed, sir? 9 A: After pulling my head -- my van 10 ahead, I was aware that there was a school bus that 11 appeared to be coming through the, I believe it's a 12 gateway that's next to the confectionery stand. 13 It drove into the sandy parking lot and as 14 it approached the edge of the roadway it suddenly 15 accelerated. I heard the engine roaring. The school bus 16 came, it would westbound in the eastbound lane or on the 17 south side of the roadway, through the CMU. 18 I recall seeing officers basically 19 silhouetted by the headlights diving out of the way and 20 running out of the way. There was a lot of commotion 21 going on. Officers trying to -- to stay out of the way 22 of the school bus. 23 As it was coming in my direction down the 24 roadway it appeared that it pulled to its left or to the 25 shoulder of the roadway. It was now driving on the


1 shoulder and it passed my location. 2 At this point, there was a lot of 3 commotion with officers running back and forth, trying to 4 stay out of the way of the bus. 5 I had thought that, from what I had seen, 6 that officers had either been hit or possibly run over by 7 the school bus at that point. I watched it as it passed 8 the van and then it appeared to come to a stop some 9 distance behind my location. 10 As I was looking back behind in the rear 11 view mirror, when I -- I looked back forward, I saw a car 12 coming on to the asphalt parking lot, it appeared as if 13 it was coming out of the sandy parking lot, and it drove 14 west, in the westbound lane, basically coming straight at 15 me and then just prior to getting to my location it made 16 a short right hand turn, turning into officers who were 17 standing on that side of the road. 18 When the vehicle suddenly stopped I was -- 19 I could see there was an officer that was on the hood and 20 there was several officers that -- appear that they were 21 hit by the -- the front bumper or the front part of the 22 car that were -- one (1) was on the ground, getting off 23 of the ground. 24 At this point, I looked in the mirror 25 briefly back at the bus to see where it was and at that


1 time I heard gunshots. 2 When I looked back, I could see muzzle 3 flashes in line with me and the driver's door. I guess, 4 closer to the vehicle I guess it's probably the -- a bit 5 of a distance between me and the car, but it was closer 6 to the car. 7 There was also muzzle flashes in front of 8 the car. There was officers running around, back and 9 forth. There was a lot of shouting going on, a lot of 10 commotion. I also saw a muzzle flash to my right, along 11 the edge of the roadway or the south edge of the roadway. 12 During this gunfire that was going on, I 13 heard what I identified or thought was a different guns 14 that were going off. They sounded different to me, 15 inside the -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: -- inside the van. I believe there 18 was an exchange of gunfire that was occurring in front of 19 me. 20 In the vehicle with me I had a mini-Ruger 21 .223 rifle, which is the issued OPP rifle. I opened up 22 the driver's door of the van, braced my left knee up 23 against a hand rail and I leaned across the top of the 24 van, looking down into the -- the car. 25 My objective was to cover that car if


1 there was a weapon produced from it. I couldn't see, 2 because it was dark. I couldn't see sights on the 3 firearm, either. That weapon is equipped with a -- a 4 peep sight aperture and I couldn't see through the 5 sights. 6 At this point, I could then hear gears 7 grinding from behind me, from the school bus. I turned 8 and looked to my right and I saw the school bus was 9 backing up. 10 At this point, I thought it was actually 11 going to back into my prisoner van. I didn't want to be 12 standing between the door and the doorframe if I got hit, 13 so I quickly got back into the van, looked out the 14 passenger window as the school bus was backing parallel 15 to the van right beside me. 16 At this point, it basically backed 17 straight back along the edge of the shoulder of the 18 roadway, past me, didn't hit the van. 19 As it was leaving, I could hear somebody 20 saying, "hold your fire, hold your fire"; screaming 21 outside at -- because I think -- I recall it was outside. 22 I don't think it was on the radio system. 23 I watched the bus as it continued to back 24 up and then I saw the car backing up. As the bus was 25 backing up, I thought it was going after the officers


1 that were basically -- had come back onto the edge of the 2 roadway or on the shoulder of the road. And when it was 3 backing up, it was obviously going a bit slower than when 4 it came through the first time. 5 As there was -- the bus had backed up, it 6 had to, I believe, backed almost into the -- a sandy berm 7 at the entrance by the parking lot. 8 At this point, I was focussed more around 9 what was going with my officers, a bunch of officers that 10 were coming towards the van. I believe there was an 11 order to form up behind the vans, check your partners. 12 At this point I suddenly realized we were at the front of 13 the CMU now, because everybody was standing behind us. 14 A bit of time went by and they said 15 everybody was accounted for, start backing the vans up. 16 So basically we were -- I don't -- don't want to use the 17 word 'shield' but we were the protection for the CMU 18 until we backed away, I'm not going to say how far it was 19 but it was a bit of a distance. 20 And they told us to get the vans out of 21 there so I backed into, I think it was a driveway. It 22 might have been into a tree or a bush. I made a U-turn 23 and headed back to the T-O-C. 24 Q: And you followed the CMU back to the 25 TOC site?


1 A: Actually, when I was told to get out 2 of there, I actually beat the CMU back. We were told to 3 leave and we did. 4 Q: Thank you, Officer, there is a 5 document at Tab 23 of the brief in front of you, it's 6 Inquiry Document 2005330. 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And you'll see the first three (3) 9 pages -- there's an affidavit. On the third page it 10 would appear to bear your signature, it's dated August 11 3rd of 1998. 12 A: Yes, sir, it is. 13 Q: There are several appendices to that. 14 The first one being a statement that you would have 15 provided to Detective Constable Donaldson; that would 16 appear to be dated 7th of September, 1995. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And just beyond that is a statement, 19 again purporting to be from yourself. That is a three 20 (3) page typed statement and it says at the third page 21 thereof: 22 "Received Tuesday, June 24th, 1997 at 23 4:20 p.m." 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And lastly, just beyond that there is


1 -- there's a map, the top corner of which has the name, 2 "LeBlanc," that's your name? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Together with again the same date, 5 June 23rd, 1997, 2:35 p.m. Monday. 6 All right. You -- you recognize this 7 document first of all, the affidavit and the appendices 8 that I've just taken you to? 9 A: Yes, sir, I do. 10 Q: I'd ask that that be made the next 11 exhibit please, Commissioner? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1556, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1556: Document Number 2005330. 15 Affidavit of Denis LeBlanc in 16 R. v. Deane, August 03, 1998. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: Now, let me just start if I may, sir, 20 with the map at the last -- at the second last page 21 thereof, and perhaps that might assist us in 22 understanding your testimony as you've just described it 23 commencing with the school bus coming out. 24 I note that you have -- I take it this is 25 a map that you would have drawn?


1 A: I -- I could identify the -- the 2 vehicles that were drawn on there as -- as by my hand. A 3 lot of the notations in the bottom left are not. 4 Q: The legend at the bottom left-hand 5 corner, that is not your notations? 6 A: No, sir, it is not. 7 Q: Is it consistent with the testimony 8 that you provided us and your recollection today? 9 A: It's consistent, yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. Well, let's maybe just 11 start with, there's a dashed line which would presumably 12 indicate as is -- as is noted in the legend the route 13 taken by the bus? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: All right. And you'll see that it 16 commences on the right side of the -- of the map. 17 There's a number "4" there and it goes all the way 18 through to the left side of the page where it says, "bus 19 stops just beyond the first intersection", yes? 20 A: Yes. Yes, sir. 21 Q: And that's consistent with your 22 understanding and your -- 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: -- your recollection, and again your 25 testimony as you've just described this event for us?


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: All right. Just adjacent to the 3 intersection there's a vehicle that's marked number "2"; 4 that is yourself, correct -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- as it's indicated in the legend? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: And the vehicle driven by Marissen, 9 that is just in front of you, it would appear then to be 10 to your left, correct? 11 A: That is correct, sir. 12 Q: And the vehicle that is marked, 13 "car," that would be just in front then of prisoner van 14 Number 1 operated by Marissen? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And the"X's that you've described for 17 us being the muzzle flashes, I take it that none of those 18 emanated in your estimation from the van, from the 19 vehicle itself, the car that is that's marked number 3? 20 A: I didn't see any muzzle flashes 21 inside of the vehicle, no sir. They were outside. 22 Q: With respect to the bus that you 23 observed going -- pardon me -- going by you did you make 24 any observations with respect to muzzle flashes or 25 anybody firing on the bus?


1 A: I -- I didn't see any muzzle flashes 2 on the bus or in proximity to it. 3 Q: All right. Do you know whether the 4 muzzle flashes that you observed, can you tell us first 5 of all who was behind that, in -- in other words who was 6 doing the shooting? 7 A: I don't know, sir. 8 Q: You couldn't see anybody? You 9 couldn't see any weapons drawn? 10 A: I never saw a weapon during this 11 incident. I saw a lot of people running in different 12 directions and muzzle flashes. 13 Q: From the moment that you observed the 14 -- the bus leaving the Park to when you hear the first 15 reports of gunfire, can you tell us how much time had 16 elapsed? 17 A: That would be an estimation, sir. 18 Without being specific I'll say in the area of a minute, 19 maybe just less than a minute. 20 Q: All right. And from the time that 21 the bus leaves the Park to the time that it re-enters the 22 Park, are you able to give us any sense as to how much 23 time elapsed by that point? 24 A: Not with any accuracy, sir. 25 Q: All right, thank you. I -- I don't


1 want you to guess. 2 A: That -- that would be really tough, 3 yeah. 4 Q: It's fair to say that -- 5 A: That -- that's quite a while ago. 6 Q: Not only was it long ago, but there 7 was a fair number of things that were happening 8 simultaneously. 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And you've described it already as a 11 great deal of confusion, people running everywhere. 12 A: People were running in different 13 directions trying to -- 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Yes sir. 16 Q: The notation at the bottom of that 17 map, the very last notation, bottom left corner, it says: 18 "11:03 p.m. heard gunshots." 19 Where did that time come from, Officer? 20 A: My recollection at that time and 21 today, it was that -- I don't know if I looked at my 22 watch or if it was the light on the dash or if it was 23 something I learned afterwards, 11:03 is the time I 24 identify as when the -- this shooting occurred. 25 I don't know where that time came from. I


1 don't have a recollection of where it came from. 2 Q: You have indicated at least three (3) 3 muzzle flashes on -- on this drawing. How many shots in 4 total did you hear, sir, if you can -- can tell us? 5 A: Actually the three (3) X's on the 6 diagram, sir, are the areas -- 7 Q: The areas, pardon me. 8 A: -- from where I saw muzzle flashes 9 from. 10 Q: All right. Thank you. 11 A: I -- I could tell you there was quite 12 a few gunshots that I heard. I -- I couldn't put a 13 number to it though. 14 Q: Did you have any assessment as to 15 what type of firearm or calibre or otherwise? 16 A: The first shots that I heard, I 17 didn't identify. After that there was a flurry of 18 gunshots. Those were consistent with a 40 calibre pistol 19 which I carry. 20 After the flurry of gunshots, I heard a 21 succession of some other type of gun being fired. It was 22 very evenly paced I guess or sequential. It didn't sound 23 like the guns that I had heard just basically a moment 24 before. They sounded different to me. 25 They were -- I guess sounded like the


1 first initial shots that I heard the first two (2) or 2 three (3) shots I heard. They were lower in volume, they 3 didn't seem to be anywhere near as strong of a report as 4 the flurry of gunshots that I heard which I associated to 5 be 40 calibre. 6 Q: All right. In your notebook, sir, 7 the notes at Tab 8, marked as Exhibit 1554. At page 49 8 you're describing in your notes, and I'm taking you down 9 to approximately the middle of the top of page 49: 10 "Heard shots then louder shots believed 11 to be 40 cal." 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And then "rapid fire". 14 A: I wrote "rapid fire" but I -- I guess 15 they were shots that were fired sequentially. There was 16 an even spacing between them, is what I was trying to 17 convey. And that's the recollection that I have. 18 Q: All right. And I understand at some 19 point just before that, that you had made a request for 20 an ambulance. 21 A: Yes, sir, I had. 22 Q: Was this before you heard the shots 23 fired or -- I take it wouldn't have been during the time 24 that the shots were -- were being fired? 25 A: No. At the time that the male person


1 who was arrested was carried past my van, I had pulled my 2 van up a few feet or just a short distance, somebody said 3 to call an ambulance. I believed it was in relation to 4 that man. And I conveyed that message on the radio 5 system to the TOC. 6 Q: And what happened with the call for 7 an ambulance? 8 A: They confirmed that they had received 9 that request. 10 Q: All right. Did you have occasion to 11 continue with that -- that call or do you know if the 12 ambulance did, in fact, attend? 13 A: The ambulance didn't attend at the 14 location. During the -- the firing of the gunshots going 15 off, I have a recollection of grabbing my mic and saying 16 hold the ambulance or stop the ambulance. 17 I didn't want an ambulance pulling into 18 the middle of a -- what essentially was a gunfight, in 19 the middle of the street. It would have been hazardous 20 to them. 21 Q: So you cancelled it? 22 A: Yes, sir, I did. 23 Q: And do you have a recollection of 24 that being so or...? 25 A: I recall doing it. What I learned


1 afterwards is what the -- when you're on a -- a TAC radio 2 frequency, you have to actually key the mic in and wait a 3 moment, a second or almost a second and a half, for the 4 radio system to make the connection. If you start 5 talking in that time period, nothing's going to be heard 6 by anybody, except for the person beside you. 7 I became aware of that problem after the - 8 - this incident and I think probably either I clipped 9 that radio communication or it might not have been 10 captured at all. 11 I know I did cancel the ambulance but I 12 don't know if it was captured. 13 Q: All right. And you've indicated 14 that, at some point in time, prior to the -- the gunshots 15 being heard, and you'll correct me if I'm -- I'm wrong 16 here, would you please, that you had taken your mini- 17 Ruger, that is the issued long gun and positioned in the 18 -- in the fashion that you've just described for us, yes? 19 A: Before the gunshots, sir? 20 Q: Or at some point? 21 A: When you say "positioned", I'm not 22 understanding your -- 23 Q: I think you've just described -- 24 A: -- question. 25 Q: -- that you stood out -- outside of


1 your vehicle; that you attempted to -- to locate the 2 target, or you were going to cover the car, I think -- 3 A: I actually stood on the step of the 4 van. I didn't get out of the van. And I had a Ruger in 5 the front seat with me of -- of the van, and I basically 6 braced my left leg on the door and leaned over the top of 7 the van in order to point the firearm at the vehicle. 8 But I couldn't do that because I couldn't 9 see the sights. 10 Q: All right. Sir, there's a document 11 at Tab 15, it's Inquiry document 2003677. 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And I will suggest to you that it is 14 a reproduction of that statement that you had -- that I 15 had already taken to you as an appendix to Exhibit 1556, 16 that is your Affidavit. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Although the one at 1556 is cut off, 19 so I want to refer you to this document at Tab 15; that 20 is your statement of September the 7th to Detective 21 Constable Donaldson. 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And perhaps before I do so, I'll ask 24 that that be marked the next exhibit, please. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1557, Your Honour.


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1557: Document Number 2003677. 2 Statement and Interim Report 3 of Denis LeBlanc, September 4 07, 1995. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: And you've had a chance to read this 8 today, sir, before coming here to testify? 9 A: Yes, sir, I have. 10 Q: And that's consistent with what 11 you've described for us in terms of your observations of 12 this event? 13 A: Yes, sir, it is. 14 Q: If you'll turn to page 3 of that 15 document, the typed page or the written page. Let's look 16 at the typed page firstly. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: The very last entry on that, before 19 "equipment, no damage" it says: 20 "At no time did I draw my weapon." 21 And I wonder if you could just tell us 22 what that means in relation to your testimony that you 23 had taken your mini-Ruger to cover the vehicle, the car? 24 A: The question in the statement is -- 25 is in answer to Mr. Donaldson's question of did I draw my


1 -- my weapon. And I inferred that question and this 2 response is to my side arm, the .40 calibre pistol and I 3 didn't take that question to be included in the long gun, 4 simply because I carried the long gun on every one of the 5 details. 6 I understood the question to be asked in 7 relation to whether or not I was required to file a use 8 of force report. 9 If you carry the long gun, either the shot 10 gun or the rifle, if you display it to a member of the 11 public it doesn't require that the reporting -- the use 12 of force report. 13 If you draw your side arm from a holster 14 in the presence of any member of the public, it does 15 require a use of force report to be submitted. 16 And so when it states that, "At no time 17 did I draw my weapon", that is specifically referring to 18 my handgun. 19 Q: Thank you. During this entire event 20 that you've described for us which -- did you see any 21 members of TRU at any point in time? 22 A: Not to this point, no, sir. 23 Q: All right. I take it from that you 24 might have seen them subsequent? 25 A: Upon returning to the TOC I did go


1 over to an area where there was a TRU truck and I did 2 speak to a TRU team medic at that point. 3 Q: And that would be Ted Slomer? 4 A: I don't know his name, sir. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: I just know he's the medic for the 7 TRU team. 8 Q: Do you know whether he had a nickname 9 or -- or anything? 10 A: The radio call sign was "Heart". 11 Q: Heart? 12 A: Heart. 13 Q: Thank you. You're being directed 14 back to the -- the TOC. What happens once you arrive 15 there? 16 A: On arriving at the TOC I parked the 17 van. I went over to P/C Marissen's van to check on the 18 prisoner that was in the back of it. I opened up the 19 back doors. At this point he was laying in the -- the 20 front part of the van on his side. 21 Because of the prior request for an 22 ambulance I wanted to have him checked so I went from 23 there directly over to where the TRU team truck was 24 located. I asked if Heart was there; it's the only call 25 sign I knew him as. He said -- one (1) officer or person


1 dressed in tactical gear identified himself. I then said 2 I wanted him to check on the prisoner. 3 We went back to the van, he got into the 4 van and checked on the male. 5 Q: All right. Did you make any 6 observations? Let me ask you this, I -- I take it that 7 that was one (1) and the same individual in the back of 8 the van that was carried from the parking lot earlier? 9 A: I only saw one (1) male arrested and 10 carried back. I believe that was the same one, yes. 11 Q: All right. Now, is that an 12 assumption you're making or -- or could you identify that 13 this was in fact one (1) and the same person? 14 A: It's just the assumption, sir. 15 Q: Thank you. 16 A: I saw one (1) person I believed to be 17 handcuffed and carried back and I thought put into the 18 van, and he was the only person there. There was no 19 person -- 20 Q: It seemed logical. 21 A: -- there was no person in my van so-- 22 Q: All right. 23 A: -- the process of elimination I think 24 there was only one (1). 25 Q: The observations of injuries at that


1 point in time, what can you tell us? 2 A: I looked into the van and I saw him. 3 He was laying on his side. He had an abrasion above his 4 eye. He had some blood around the corner of his mouth or 5 his middle lip area. I couldn't tell if it was his upper 6 or his lower lip. It looked like he either had a -- 7 maybe a fat lip or a cut fat lip. Nothing was said. He 8 didn't say anything to me, I didn't say anything to him, 9 I just saw him there. Went and got the medic. When I 10 came -- 11 Q: Did you see any injuries about his 12 head other than you've described? 13 A: Didn't really look, sir. 14 Q: Did you make -- 15 A: I think he had long hair. 16 Q: Thank you. 17 A: I didn't see any. 18 Q: Did you make any determinations as to 19 his level of consciousness? 20 A: Not at that point. 21 Q: Any determinations as to his state 22 with respect to the ingestion of alcohol or other 23 substances? 24 A: Afterwards. Not at that point, no. 25 Q: All right. So you go and get the TRU


1 medic you've described as Heart? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: He comes over, attends on the 4 individual inside the van. Were you in -- in proximity? 5 Did you see what was going on? 6 A: No. As soon as he climbed into the 7 van I turned my attentions to Harry and we were talking 8 about where he was supposed to go and what we were going 9 to do. 10 Q: All right. And what happens after 11 that, Officer? 12 A: When I turned my attentions back to 13 the van the male who was the prisoner was now at the -- 14 near the door area. He was basically in a semi-reclined 15 or sitting position. The medic was directly behind him. 16 He advised that the man needed to be transported to a 17 hospital, and it was conveyed that it had to be right 18 now, not later on. 19 So at that point I went over to where 20 there was an ambulance at the TOC. I told the two (2) 21 ambulance attendants that I needed them over by the vans. 22 I returned back to the van. On my way I saw two (2) 23 uniformed officers that were near the TOC or the Tactical 24 Operations Trailer. I told them to follow me as well. 25 When I got back to the back of the


1 prisoner van I took the handcuffs off of the man that was 2 in front of me and basically guided him onto the gurney 3 once the ambulance attendants put the gurney at the back 4 of the van. 5 I told the ambulance attendants to take 6 him to Strathroy Hospital. I told the two (2) uniformed 7 officers to follow the ambulance to the hospital and to 8 stay with that person, that he was under arrest. 9 Q: He was under arrest for what? 10 A: At that point, sir, I really didn't 11 know. I knew he was in our custody. I knew he wasn't 12 allowed to leave. I don't know what he was under arrest 13 for. 14 Q: Do you know who would have effected 15 the arrest on this individual? 16 A: No, sir, I don't. 17 Q: You weren't told I take it? 18 A: No, sir, I wasn't. 19 Q: All right. You're aware that there's 20 an obligation to inform a person under arrest for the 21 reasons for the arrest? 22 A: Yes, sir, I am. 23 Q: All right. I take it the results at 24 that point in time that you made certain observations 25 with respect to injuries or otherwise?


1 A: When I was talking with the medic, I 2 was looking at the male. I was down in pretty close 3 proximity to him. If he would be groggy, semi- 4 unconscious I guess would be the term; when the medic 5 asked him a question there wasn't a verbal response but 6 when he was given a direction to get up, we're going to 7 put you on the gurney or something, after the second, 8 perhaps the third direction, he seemed to be complying 9 with it. And -- 10 Q: What impression did you form? 11 A: Looking at him, the observations I 12 had were consistent that he appeared to be heavily 13 intoxicated. 14 Q: All right. What about using other 15 types of intoxicants? Did you make any determination as 16 to -- when you're saying intoxicated, what might be the 17 cause of that? 18 A: Well intoxication -- the physical 19 observation that I saw led me to believe that it was 20 consistent with him being intoxicated. I don't recall 21 smelling alcohol on him or anything along that line. 22 The observations could be consistent with 23 other causes as well but what I'm mostly associated with 24 or commonly see is intoxication. 25 I have dealt with people who are suffering


1 from diabetic shock, who were arrested for impaired 2 driving and later found to be actually diabetics who 3 exhibited similar signs that he had. I've also dealt 4 with people who have suffered traumatic head injury in 5 motor vehicle accidents. 6 So the most common one is alcohol induced. 7 I've also dealt with people who have been 8 on narcotics in my job who were also in a semi-comatose 9 state or unconscious state. 10 Q: Sir, on December the 17th of 1997 you 11 gave a statement to the Special Investigations Unit, to a 12 Mr. Muir and Mr. Hunter. 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: There's a document at Tab 21 in the 15 brief in front of you. It's Inquiry Document 1005714. 16 A: Yes, sir? 17 Q: It's a seven (7) page document, 18 questions and answers and commences with some statement. 19 That's the statement that you provided, is it? 20 A: The anticipated -- page 1, sir, are 21 you referring to? 22 Q: Yeah, I'm referring to the whole 23 document. That's the document that you gave to the 24 Special Investigations Unit on the date indicated? 25 A: It's their report, sir. I didn't


1 provide a statement to them. I answered the -- the 2 questions. 3 Q: Sorry, thank you. And you've had a 4 chance to review this and that is consistent with the 5 answers that you provided? 6 A: No, sir, it isn't. This document and 7 the interview process was recorded by the SIU. When it 8 was presented to me to review and to sign, I found that 9 there was inconsistencies -- 10 Q: All right. 11 A: -- in this document and therefore I 12 wouldn't sign it as being a proper statement. This is 13 for the most part an accurate representation of that 14 interview, but there are inconsistencies with what is 15 documented with -- compare to what my answers were. 16 Q: Can you tell us today what those 17 inconsistencies are, with respect to the answers that you 18 did provide? 19 A: I recall that while on the date that 20 I provided this statement, I had gone over it and that 21 there was questions that were put to me, the answers that 22 were documented were not appropriate to the question. 23 And when I pointed it out to the SIU and 24 asked for it to be corrected, I was told that it wasn't 25 going to be modified.


1 Q: Hence, your refusal to sign it? 2 A: Hence my refusal to sign it because 3 it wasn't accurate. 4 Q: Let me just take you to page 6 of 5 that -- perhaps with that explanation, Commissioner, I 6 would ask that this be made the next exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1558, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1558: Document Number 1005714. 10 Anticipated evidence of 11 Constable Denis LeBlanc, 12 December 17, 1997. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: And if I can ask you to turn to page 16 6 of that document. You've indicated already that you've 17 made assessments of people in the same state that this 18 individual was in the prisoner van, that it could range 19 from intoxication either of alcohol or perhaps other 20 substances through to perhaps diabetic or head injuries, 21 I think you've testified. 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And you nonetheless were of the 24 conclusion, at least insofar as is recorded here, that 25 this person was heavily intoxicated as opposed to the


1 other options that you've identified for us. 2 A: They were consistent. My 3 observations were consistent that he -- his physicals 4 that he displayed were that of a heavily intoxicated 5 male. 6 Q: Okay. And I'll refer you to the 7 question that the -- the second question at the bottom of 8 the page, do you see that? 9 "Q: When you assisted in removing him 10 from the van to the ambulance, was he 11 conscious? 12 A: My impression was that he was 13 extremely intoxicated and we assisted 14 him, but we didn't carry him. We were 15 guiding him and he was able to carry 16 some of his own weight." 17 A: That's correct, sir. 18 Q: Is that consistent with the answer 19 that you would have given? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: All right. And at the last page of 22 that, the very last indication the question is -- very 23 last entries, rather. The question is put to you: 24 "Is there anything that you can think 25 of -- can assist us in this


1 investigation? 2 A: From what I saw, the injuries 3 appeared to be trivial." 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: That's con -- that's consistent of 6 what you've told the officers -- pardon me, the SIU? 7 A: Yes, sir, it is. 8 Q: All right. Is there anything in the 9 document, sir, that you can assist us with as to what you 10 don't agree with? 11 A: At this time, sir, in reviewing the 12 statement, I'll have to take a moment in order to read it 13 over. 14 Q: Please do. 15 A: Okay. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes, sir, in relation to page 3 I 20 would surmise that the second question -- the third 21 question, Can you describe the person that you saw 22 arrested, the answer isn't conducive to what I recall as 23 being the answer I would have provided and in reviewing 24 that answer that is written down here it doesn't answer 25 the question.


1 Q: The answer that's provided for the 2 record reads: 3 "At some point he is removed from the 4 prisoner van and this person is 5 described: male, native, heavy-set. It 6 was dark at the back of the van when I 7 saw this person and the lighting poor. 8 The only light was from someone in the 9 van with a small light." 10 Right? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And that wasn't the answer that you 13 provided? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: Because they asked me to describe the 17 person that I saw and I did provide a description of him. 18 He was a First Nations person. He had long, black hair. 19 He was a big man and then I described the injuries that 20 he had. 21 Q: All right. Do you recall what 22 injuries you would have described? 23 A: I recall saying that he had a cut fat 24 lip on the one (1) side of his mouth. It would have been 25 -- I believe it was his left side --


1 Q: All right. 2 A: -- when he was laying in the van. I 3 believe it was also his left eye that had the abrasion 4 over top of it. 5 Q: All right. And you'll see that on 6 page 5 of that there's the question put to you towards to 7 the middle of the -- the bottom portion of the page: 8 "Going back -- 9 Q: Going back to the injuries you 10 described you said fat -- you said a 11 fat lip. In your notes you say a cut 12 fat lip, et cetera, can you recall what 13 other injuries were -- can you recall 14 what the other injuries were [rather]? 15 A: I recall he had a fat lip and an 16 abrasion above one (1) of his eyes." 17 Q: Okay. Is there anything else that -- 18 that stands out for you, sir, as to what you did not 19 agree with that's compelling you -- 20 A: Those -- 21 Q: -- not to sign the statement? 22 A: Those two (2) questions stand out 23 today, sir. I don't have a recollection of -- at the 24 time with the interview what points I had raised with my 25 Counsel to the SIU.


1 Q: All right. Thank you. In any event 2 you assisted then in the removal of the handcuffs from 3 this individual who was then placed on a gurney as you've 4 described and placed into an ambulance? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And did you know any of the people 7 that were assisting with this task? 8 A: No, sir, I did not. 9 Q: All right. The ambulance -- 10 A: Oh, I'm sorry, except for Constable 11 Marissen. 12 Q: All right. Thank you. 13 A: He was there. 14 Q: The ambulance attendants, do you have 15 any recall of who these might be or...? 16 A: They were two (2) ambulance 17 attendants that were at the TOC in proximity to an 18 ambulance that was there. 19 Q: Okay. And I take it at some later 20 date that you discovered that in fact these were St. 21 John's Ambulance rather than -- I'm going to -- I'm going 22 to venture to say the regular ambulance? 23 A: I learned there's a difference 24 between St. John's personnel and EMS I would say. That 25 was something just recently I learned.


1 Q: Following -- following that 2 particular task what did you do? 3 A: After that I attended at the TOC and 4 I had a brief conversation with Sergeant Van Damme. I 5 confirmed to him that all of our members were fine. At 6 that point I was a heading back towards Checkpoint Alpha 7 to resume my duties. I received either direction to 8 attend or tasked to attend at the intersection of 21 9 Highway and Ravenswood Road in order to transport a 10 prisoner. 11 I took the prisoner van. I left the TOC. 12 I attended at Ravenswood which is the intersection of 13 Ipperwash Road and 21 Highway. There was already a bit 14 of a gathering of some officers. 15 I had spoken to Mark Gransden who was a 16 Number 6 District ERT team member. He advised me of 17 certain facts relating to a female party who had been 18 arrested. He advised that this person had been arrested 19 by Constable Lorch. He also provided me the time of the 20 arrest as well as the fact that this person had been read 21 their rights to counsel. 22 Q: I'm looking at your notes, Officer, 23 at Tab 8, Exhibit 1554 at page 50. 24 A: Yes, sir. And that was at 11:55 that 25 night.


1 Q: All right. Just continue on and tell 2 us what happened then. 3 A: "I arrived at scene, I spoke to Mark 4 Gransden." 5 As I stated he'd provided me with 6 information in relation to this person, she had been 7 placed under arrest for failing to stop for police. She 8 was placed under arrest, had read her rights, was taken 9 into custody. 10 I was to transport her to the Forest 11 Detachment. This female was removed from the cruiser by 12 other officers, escorted to the back of my prisoner van. 13 There I handed Constable Gransden my handcuffs in order 14 for us to exchange our cuffs so we can keep track of our 15 equipment. 16 He put the cuffs on her and then I 17 unlocked the back of the van and she was placed into the 18 van. And then the van was secured. At this point I was 19 looking around for another escorting officer because I 20 won't transport female prisoners by myself. It's against 21 our policy. 22 There was a female Constable that was at 23 this location. I asked her to jump into the van, that 24 we're going to be transporting a prisoner to the Forest 25 Detachment.


1 Q: And who was this female Constable? 2 A: I learned -- I believe her name is 3 Amy Etienne. At the time I -- I don't even know if I 4 asked her what her name was. I may have but I don't 5 recall. 6 Q: All right. I take it you wouldn't 7 know where she was stationed then or now? 8 A: No, sir, I don't. 9 Q: Carry on. So you take the prisoner 10 into your custody, read her her rights. 11 A: She's already been read her rights, 12 sir. I don't read them a second time. 13 Q: Pardon me? Carry on then. 14 A: Yeah. I took her into my custody, I 15 transported her from that location directly to the Forest 16 Detachment. On arriving there I unlocked the van, I may 17 have assisted her in getting out of the van. 18 I know it's quite a step getting out of 19 that van. At that point we proceeded directly into the 20 Forest Detachment garage. On entering into the garage I 21 removed her handcuffs, at this point I'm looking at her 22 and realizing she's wearing a green Canadian military -- 23 I guess it's a shirt that she's wearing as a jacket. 24 I had received prior information during 25 one (1) of the briefings that when the occupiers


1 originally took over the Ipperwash Provincial Park -- 2 pardon me, Ipperwash Army Camp, that there was uniforms 3 that were left on site and that if we had the opportunity 4 to recover these, that we were to. 5 And that it was also an offense under the 6 Criminal Code to be wearing a current issue Canadian 7 Military uniform. I advised this female who had been 8 identified to me as Marcia Simons that it was an offense 9 to be wearing that jacket. 10 Her reply was that they had left a bunch 11 of uniforms in the barracks when the police left -- when 12 the military police had left. Advised her it still 13 didn't make it all right to be wearing the military 14 jacket and I needed it. 15 She then took it off, handed it to me, I 16 then turned and saw Stan Korosec standing in the garage. 17 I handed him the jacket. At this point I turned back to 18 Marcia. In the garage at that time was Constable 19 Etienne, myself, Paul Evans who is a Constable with the 20 Number One District Chatham Identification's Unit. 21 Paul advised me that he was ready to 22 process her. So I handed him Marcia's driver's license 23 which I had on me then left the garage. 24 Q: Right. Other than this exchange with 25 the individual you've identified now as Marcia Simon, you


1 may have assisted her out of the vehicle, out of the 2 prisoner's van? 3 A: I think I did, sir. I don't have a 4 clear recollection. I just know it's -- 5 Q: You would have -- 6 A: -- it's tough to get out of that van 7 if you're in handcuffs. 8 Q: Thank you. And she was in handcuffs 9 at that point? 10 A: Yes, sir, she was. 11 Q: She would have been handcuffed behind 12 her which I think was the standard practice? 13 A: It is today, sir, yes. 14 Q: All right. And aside from -- from 15 taking her jacket from her, did you have occasion to 16 strike her at any point in time? 17 A: Never. 18 Q: How would you describe the exchange 19 between yourself and Ms. Simon? 20 A: Professional. She at one (1) point 21 asked why she was at the office. I told her she was 22 under arrest for failing to stop. 23 Q: Any other discussion with her? 24 A: No, sir. 25 Q: I can tell you, sir, that she in her


1 testimony before this Inquiry on September the 3rd of 2 2004 at pages 181 and 182, she identified the person who 3 took her jacket from her as being extremely angry. 4 A: I don't know, sir, where that comes 5 from. That was the first I've -- I've heard of it. I 6 wasn't angry at her; I had no reason to be angry at her. 7 Q: She indicates that the person who 8 took the jacket from her, she advised him that the jacket 9 was such that the cuffs of it assisted her in keeping her 10 wrists warm; that sort of thing. 11 Do you recall anything like that? 12 A: That may be, sir. I don't recall. 13 Q: All right. In any event, she 14 indicated that -- let me just read her testimony, if I 15 would -- if I could, please. It's at page 182, as I've 16 indicated: 17 "Q: All right. Did you ever receive 18 that back?" 19 This is in relation to the jacket. 20 "A: No, no. While I was standing 21 with my back to -- to the people there, 22 someone came up and hit me in the 23 shoulder and was very angry that I'd 24 had a jacket like that and told me I 25 could be charged for impersonating a


1 military officer." 2 Did you have any such conversation with 3 Ms. Simon, first of all, to the effect that she could be 4 charged for impersonating? 5 A: Not for impersonating. For wearing 6 the Canadian military jacket I did state that to her. I 7 wasn't mad at her. I -- it wasn't me, sir, that's all I 8 can say. 9 Q: All right, thank you. You've 10 indicated that you then turned her driver's licence over 11 to Paul Evans who took over and -- and commenced to 12 process her; is that it? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: All right. You didn't have any 15 further dealings with Ms. Simon at that point? 16 A: Not at that point. I actually left 17 the Forest Detachment. I was returning to the TOC. 18 Q: Tell us what happened then when 19 you're leaving the Forest Detachment, returning to the 20 TOC? 21 A: As I was leaving Forest, I saw a blue 22 pickup truck with some yellow clearance lights on the 23 top, coming into town at a pretty quick speed. 24 Q: Whereabouts did you make this 25 observation of this blue pickup truck?


1 A: I would have been north of the 2 intersection of Townsend Line on King Street, which is 3 the 21 Highway overlap. 4 At the time, I believe there was a variety 5 store and a Knechtel's across the road. To the north of 6 that, there was a -- a KFC store and then some houses. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: It would have been in the area of 9 maybe the KFC or the houses that I made a U turn, so 10 basically just as I was turning on to 21 Highway. 11 Q: And this blue vehicle that you'd seen 12 proceeding into the Town of Forest, I take it? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Had -- had you been -- were you 15 familiar with that vehicle? 16 A: I had dealt with that pickup truck 17 earlier when I was at Checkpoint Alpha. The -- the 18 vehicle at that time, East Parkway had been closed off to 19 anybody going in the direction of the Ipperwash 20 Provincial Park. 21 That vehicle had been turned around, and I 22 saw it coming into Forest. I recognized it as being the 23 same vehicle. 24 Q: And what do you recall of that 25 vehicle that would have prompted you to follow it?


1 A: Just that it was turned around. 2 There was a mention at the time that they had removed 3 baseball bats from that vehicle. That's my rec -- if 4 it's the same vehicle. 5 Q: And where did you follow this vehicle 6 to? 7 A: I followed it, made a U turn on -- on 8 21 Highway. I proceeded directly into the Forest 9 Detachment parking lot or into the entrance way of the 10 parking lot. 11 Q: Okay. On your way to the Forest 12 Detachment, did you make any call ins or any such thing? 13 A: Yes, I did. Because of the way the 14 vehicle was driving and -- very fast, a little bit on the 15 erratic, it obviously was driving somewhere with a 16 purpose, I guess, is the way to describe it. 17 I called into the Forest Detachment saying 18 that there was an inbound blue pickup truck coming to the 19 Forest Detachment and that pretty well ended that 20 communication as I was turning onto Townsend Line, just a 21 very short distance from the office. 22 Q: All right. What happens? 23 A: I followed the vehicle. It stopped 24 right at the entranceway. I pulled my vehicle, my 25 prisoner van, up behind it.


1 At this time, I could see that there was a 2 male person crouched in the back of the truck. Appeared 3 to be hanging on to the -- the box. 4 Immediately on stopping there was officers 5 in front of the truck which were issuing commands to the 6 occupants of the pickup truck. 7 Q: Did you hear these commands? 8 A: I could hear what was going on. 9 There was actually two (2) or three (3) officers at the 10 first that were yelling commands. 11 Q: And could you hear what they were 12 yelling? 13 A: Get out of the truck, put your hands 14 up, was the gist of what it was. I don't recall the 15 exact words. It was effectively a hazardous takedown 16 that they were executing. 17 I recall seeing the doors opening on -- on 18 both sides of the truck. People were getting out of the 19 truck. 20 Q: How many people? 21 A: One (1) on each side that I saw. And 22 then at that point, the male that was crouched down in 23 the back of the truck stood up and then jumped out onto 24 the driver's side. 25 Q: The occupants that were in the cab of


1 the -- of the truck, do you -- can you tell us whether 2 they were male, female? 3 A: I can tell you that male -- there was 4 a male that jumped out of the truck. I -- I was mostly 5 looking at him. He was the focus, I guess, of what I was 6 looking at. 7 Q: All right. And as you -- 8 A: I don't recall -- 9 Q: I'm sorry, continue. 10 A: I don't recall what the occupants, if 11 they were male or female -- 12 Q: All right. 13 A: -- at the time. 14 Q: You're watching the male in the -- in 15 the back of the vehicle that jumps out. What happens? 16 A: He jumps out. He's -- there -- 17 there's a lot of yelling going on between the occupants 18 of the truck and the officers that are in front of the 19 truck pointing weapons at him. The people that are in 20 the pickup truck are complying with what they're being 21 told to do by the police, they're being compliant. 22 They're putting their hands up. They're following the 23 directions. 24 At this point I had actually stepped out 25 of my van. I had a Ruger in my hand. I put it back into


1 the van; it wasn't going to be required. They were -- 2 there were compliant. There was no reason for it. 3 I locked the van up. I went forward at 4 this point. The only person I saw in the driver's side 5 of the pickup was the male who had jumped out of the 6 pickup truck. He went down into the -- a full laying 7 position face down on the ground. Constable Darryl 8 (phonetic) Whitehead was moving forward and telling him 9 not to move. 10 The command, Don't move, is synonymous 11 with it's okay for me to move in to handcuff him. At 12 this point I moved in forward, put handcuffs onto the 13 male, handcuffing him behind his back. 14 Q: When Officer Whitehead is giving 15 these orders not to move is he brandishing a firearm? 16 A: I recall he had a weapon out but I 17 don't recall if it was his pistol or if he had a long 18 gun. 19 Q: The officers that you observed the 20 scene, can you tell us whether they had pistols or long 21 guns? 22 A: I clearly recall seeing officers with 23 a rifle who was in front of the van. And I recall seeing 24 another officer on the ground with some sort of a long 25 gun. I don't recall if it was a shotgun or a rifle.


1 Q: Can you recall how many officers you 2 might have observed? 3 A: Two (2) at least that I saw at one 4 (1) time. Darryl Whitehead was the only one I think I 5 knew or who I could identify that was there. I don't 6 know how many there was though or I don't recall how 7 many. 8 Q: And I take it you didn't -- you 9 didn't know at that point who the -- the identity of 10 these individuals in the truck that you had followed in? 11 A: Never did, sir. 12 Q: You -- you've never become aware of-- 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: Could you hear anything that they 15 might have been saying? For example, we are told, 16 Officer LeBlanc, that they were there to inquire about 17 Cecil Bernard George. 18 A: They were yelling at the officers who 19 were yelling back at them. I didn't hear what they were 20 yelling, sir. I -- I just don't recall. There was just 21 a lot of yelling on back and forth and the police officer 22 was probably yelling the loudest, Put your hands up, put 23 your hands up. 24 Q: The individual that you seen exiting 25 the back of the vehicle, did you see him at any point


1 exposing his midriff or...? 2 A: I don't recall, sir. 3 Q: Okay. Do you recall him identifying 4 himself as the brother of Cecil Bernard George? 5 A: I don't recall that. He didn't say 6 that to me -- 7 Q: All right. 8 A: -- in my contact with him. 9 Q: Did you make any assessment of any of 10 the people from the vehicle as being highly emotional? 11 A: I would say -- 12 Q: Crying perhaps? 13 A: I don't recall anybody crying. 14 Emotional, yeah. There was a lot of raised voices. 15 There was a lot of screaming going on. 16 Q: All right. And again just with 17 respect to the manner in which the vehicle was being 18 driven I think you've described it as -- as fairly 19 quickly and erratic. Is that...? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: I guess when I say, "erratic," I'm 23 not saying it was swerving on the roadway or anything 24 like that, it was just driving well above the posted 25 speed limit. The cornering isn't something you'd see


1 every day at that corner; it was cutting inside of the 2 corner just trying to get somewhere very, very quickly I 3 guess. It wasn't staying within the lines of the road. 4 Q: With a purpose, I think -- 5 A: With a purpose I guess is probably 6 the best way to describe it. 7 Q: After assisting with getting the 8 handcuffs on the individual who was now in a laid down 9 position what happens from there, Officer? 10 A: Myself and Constable Whitehead picked 11 him up and we walked him a very short distance to the 12 detachment garage door. At that point I told Constable 13 Whitehead I had somewhere to be; I had a -- a task to be 14 at Checkpoint Alpha. I then removed my handcuffs from 15 this male and Constable Whitehead put his handcuffs back 16 on. On completing that, I left. 17 Q: Where did that occur, with this 18 exchange of handcuffs? 19 A: Just inside the Detachment garage 20 door. 21 Q: All right. And do you recall whether 22 or not the person on whom you've exchanged the handcuffs 23 was -- what position was he in? 24 A: At that point he was standing, sir. 25 Q: All right.


1 A: We had just walked him into the door. 2 Q: And I take it that you returned back 3 to Checkpoint Alpha? 4 A: Yes, sir, I did. 5 Q: And that was located again at or near 6 the -- the TOC? 7 A: My understanding it was the west 8 entrance of the -- I guess it's classified as the 9 overflow parking area. 10 Q: All right, thank you. 11 A: MNR parking lot. 12 Q: And during the course of that shift, 13 was there anything remarkable that occurred that you can 14 recall for us today? 15 A: The remainder of the shift, sir? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: Maint -- I maintained a static 18 checkpoint. I was working there with Constable Sword and 19 Constable Lima as well as two (2) uniform officers who 20 were doing -- speaking with -- whatever people came down 21 the road later on towards the morning. 22 Q: You have an entry on page 52 of your 23 notes at Tab 8. 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: P-1554, there's an entry at 08:45


1 hours. 2 A: Yes. That was actually the time I 3 was looking for. There was a radio call. We were 4 directed to move northerly through the MNR area. Just so 5 we can keep an observation on the beach area. 6 The information was basically that they 7 understood that you could drive from Kettle Point to the 8 Ipperwash Provincial Park on the beach way. It didn't 9 make s sense to block the road but leave the beach open. 10 So we just set up a checkpoint on a sandy 11 boardwalk area so that we can keep an eye on the beach 12 for any vehicle traffic. 13 Q: Was there any vehicle traffic that 14 you can recall or made a note of? 15 A: I recall Constable Marissen went down 16 and talked to one person who was walking his yellow dog 17 down the beach. That was about it. No vehicles. 18 Q: Do you know who that person was or 19 what conversation was had? 20 A: My recollection was that it was the 21 same male that we had talked with the night before who 22 was walking his dog down the road. 23 Q: And the nature of any conversation or 24 comment that the person walking his dog might have made? 25 A: I didn't speak to him in the morning,


1 sir, Constable Marissen did. 2 Q: And were you told anything about what 3 it -- what exchange that might have taken place? 4 A: I may have at the time, sir, but I -- 5 I don't recall right now about what was talked about. 6 Q: The morning of September the 7th of 7 '95, you became aware that there was a march of civilians 8 from Kettle Point First Nation towards the Army Camp, 9 correct? 10 A: During the morning I was made aware 11 of that, yes. 12 Q: What -- what if anything more can you 13 tell us about that? 14 A: My recollection was that it was 15 basically a unity march that the people from Kettle Point 16 would be marching. I believe the route was down 21 17 Highway to the Army Camp. That's the information that I 18 had. 19 Q: You wouldn't have heard any 20 instructions over the radio or over any of the comms that 21 you had as to what the various checkpoints that might 22 have been located along that route, were to do? 23 A: There was conversations about it. I 24 don't recall what those were, sir. They weren't directed 25 towards me or my checkpoint.


1 Q: And at 10:40 you have an entry at 2 page 52 of your note, Officer. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Does that say "relieved"? 5 A: Yes, sir, it does. 6 Q: All right. And is that "10-19"? 7 A: Yes, sir, it's a ten-code for 8 returning to Detachment. 9 Q: All right. And at 11:10 it says 10 "ATS". 11 I take it that's at the scene? 12 A: Yes, sir, it is. 13 Q: And perhaps you can just read the 14 balance of that entry? 15 A: Yes. 16 "11:10 ATS. Debrief and wait. Advise 17 possible interview re. CMU action." 18 And then at 1:05 -- do you want me to 19 continue, sir? 20 21 Q: Yes, 13:05. 22 A: "13:05, 10-78..." 23 Which is again a 10 police code for 24 officer needs assistance. 25 "...at Tactical Operation Centre.


1 Being overtaken." 2 The next line I have "E [and] R" which 3 means I'm on en-route. And then at 13:27 I have "ATS" 4 which means at the scene. 5 "Lost the TOC." 6 And then there's a notation in relation to 7 my recollection of what was at the TOC when I was there 8 earlier, as far as equipment. 9 "One (1) OPP van, one (1) St. John's 10 truck. St. John's trailer and truck, 11 two ATV's, Kawasaki and trailer. 12 Victrix antenna, the whole thing." 13 Told to 10-19. 14 Q: And 10-19, you've just told us, it 15 means to go back to the -- back to the Command Post? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: You never actually made it to -- to 18 the TOC? 19 A: No, sir, I didn't. As I was driving 20 down East Parkway I was met, I believe it was from a -- a 21 TRU team member who was walking in the opposite direction 22 who stopped me. 23 Q: Let me just stop you there if I may-- 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: -- sir. How do you know it was a TRU


1 team member? 2 A: Just the uniform that he was wearing, 3 the weapon that he was carrying. It wasn't a 12 gauge 4 shotgun or a mini-Ruger, it was a speciality weapon. I 5 don't know what it was. That's -- from the uniform he 6 was wearing and the weapon he was carrying, I believed 7 him to be a TRU team member. 8 Q: The uniform that he was wearing? 9 A: It was different from the one I was 10 wearing. It was a tactical uniform. It wasn't a blue 11 uniform or an ERT uniform. 12 Q: Okay. And do you know this 13 individual? 14 A: No, sir, I didn't. 15 Q: Okay. Did you know any of the TRU 16 members? 17 A: At that time I knew them, to see them 18 at London Detachment, but no, basically I didn't. 19 Q: All right. So it wasn't because his 20 face or identity was concealed from you that you didn't 21 recognize him, it was just you didn't know the person? 22 A: Yeah, I -- I think there was six (6) 23 members on a team, I think. It might be eight (8). 24 Because their trailer is located at London Detachment 25 which I have a time -- time to time when I was working in


1 Lucan I would be there, you would see them walking in and 2 out of the building. You'd say hi to them, How's it 3 going, and eventually you'd learn their first name or 4 maybe even their second name. 5 I had done training, I think, on one (1) 6 occasion with some members of the TRU team at a firearms 7 range which was part of the quarterly training. 8 But I wouldn't say that I knew who they 9 were. I knew their first name, maybe. 10 The officer on the road that day, though, 11 I didn't know who he was. 12 Q: Thank you. You were given this 13 information, it would appear from your notes, officer, at 14 the bottom of page 52, at 13:27 hours. 15 And it appears that you then are told to 16 10-19, that is go back to your command post, and you 17 arrive there, it would appear, at 14:30. 18 Is that -- am I reading that properly? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: It's a notation of when I'm at the 23 office, yes, sir. 24 Q: Okay. And you're told at that point 25 to await to give statements re. CMU. This is what you've


1 indicated in your notes earlier is that potential coming 2 about. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: All right. What happens from there, 5 officer? 6 A: Shortly after that, I was advised 7 that it was my turn to be interviewed. I went into the 8 Forest Detachment area, basically it was a -- a side 9 hall. 10 There was Constable -- or Detective 11 Constable Russ Donaldson. He advised that I was being 12 interviewed in relation to what had occurred the night 13 before with the CMU. 14 Q: The document at Tab 15 that we've 15 already looked at, and marked as Exhibit 1557. 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: It -- that's the statement that you 18 provided to Officer Donaldson? 19 A: Yes, sir, it is. 20 Q: Did you later have occasion to speak 21 to SIU? 22 A: In relation to the prisoner that was 23 arrested. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Mr. Cecil Bernard George I believe is


1 his name. 2 Q: All right. And that's the document 3 that we've referred earlier and we've marked as an 4 exhibit here, the one that you were -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- felt compelled not to sign? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: All right. And I understand, sir, 9 that on the 8th of September that you had returned to 10 duty; you were assigned to Checkpoint Juliette 11 (phonetic)? 12 A: That's correct, sir. 13 Q: And that was located at lakeshore and 14 Proof Line maybe? 15 A: I believe it was Proof Line, yes, 16 sir. 17 Q: And what was your duty at that point? 18 A: We were conducting checkpoints at 19 different locations and we were to support the uniform 20 members who were speaking to the motoring public. 21 Q: Do you recall whether you had 22 occasion to stop any vehicles on that date, that is the 23 8th of September? 24 A: I did not, sir. That was not my 25 task.


1 Q: And from September the 9th and 2 onwards, I understand that you remained on E-R-T duty in 3 the area until the 11th of September? 4 A: Yes, sir, that's correct. 5 Q: All right. Was there any incidents 6 of significance during that period of time, sir? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Perhaps I can refer you -- 11 A: I -- I -- 12 Q: -- to -- 13 A: -- I guess I'd have to ask you in 14 relation to what level of significance. 15 Q: All right. Well let me -- let me ask 16 you to turn to the document at Tab 17. It is Inquiry 17 Document 2003676. It would appear to be an Interview 18 Report given by yourself dated September the 10th of '95. 19 A: This is actually a -- a printed 20 General Occurrence Report. It is not my report. It is a 21 -- appears to be a report of a Constable C. Martin dated 22 the 10th of September at 7:08. It's not my report, sir. 23 Q: I wonder if we're looking at the same 24 document. Inquiry Document 2003676 at the top, Interview 25 Report, Tab 16?


1 A: I'm sorry, I'm at Tab 17, sir. 2 Q: Pardon me. 3 A: My apologies. Yes, the inter -- Tab 4 16 is a Interview Report that I filled out in relation to 5 an incident on the 10th of September, yes. 6 Q: All right. And is that in your hand? 7 A: Yes. Yes, sir, it is. 8 Q: And that's your signature on the 9 second page? 10 A: Yes, sir, it is. 11 Q: Perhaps we can make that the next 12 exhibit? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1559, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1559: Document Number 2003676. 16 Interview report September 17 10, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: And it details an incident on that 21 date where yourself and Officer Marissen received a 22 report of a First Nations person observed with a handgun 23 at Carly's, is that -- is that right? 24 A: Not sure if it was a handgun, sir, if 25 it was a weapon. If I could have a moment to review the


1 statement? 2 Q: Yes, please. 3 A: Thank you. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: It's at the bottom of the first full 8 paragraph. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Thank you, sir. Actually it's 13 "Corky's" which was Corky's Deli and Donut. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: It's located at the intersection of 16 King and Townsend Line, or Highway 21 and Townsend Line. 17 Q: I take it the comment there, "No 18 further involvement in investigation/incident", is 19 consistent with what your involvement in that would have 20 been? 21 A: The information I received is there 22 was a person at Corky's that had been identified as being 23 in a vehicle with two (2) occupants, that there was a 24 weapon displayed as it went by. And I believe the 25 information was at a checkpoint.


1 Constable Marissen and I jumped into a 2 cruiser. We then stationed ourselves across the road at 3 Knechtel's Food Store. We maintained observation of the 4 car which was -- I believe it was a Buick station wagon 5 with two (2) male persons in it. 6 The male people were First Nations. They 7 were both pretty good size men wearing dark clothing; I 8 believe it was black T-shirt and black jean. They 9 basically were outside of the vehicle walking around a 10 bit. After an amount, a period of time, they got in the 11 car and then left Corky's Donuts travelling north on 21 12 Highway. 13 We radioed in our observations. We 14 followed the car as far as almost the Kettle Point curve 15 which is the intersection of 21 Highway and Lakeshore 16 Road. At that point we were told to disregard and to 10- 17 19. 18 Q: Is there any reason why you wouldn't 19 have stopped this vehicle at some point and commenced a 20 search given the information you had? 21 A: We were -- we had requested to do 22 that. We were told to standby and to continue following 23 the vehicle. 24 Q: And lastly, sir, just in this 25 particular area, I understand that on October the 5th you


1 were called out with respect to the potential occupation 2 of Pinery Provincial Park as well as a protest by a group 3 known as 'On Fire'? 4 A: That's correct. Yes, sir. I don't 5 recall, sir, if it was about the potential occupation of 6 Pinery Provincial Park. I believe it was because there 7 was an On Fire demonstration which was coinciding with 8 somebody serving notice upon Pinery Provincial Park, that 9 they were going to be assuming possession of it. 10 Q: All right. Sir, did you have any 11 other involvement with the Ipperwash matter, the 12 Ipperwash event that you've taken us through? 13 A: Effectively those are -- that's my 14 involvement, sir. 15 Q: All right. I appreciate that. Just 16 one (1) last area, sir. We've heard some testimony about 17 the production of T-shirts, mugs and other types of 18 paraphernalia. 19 First of all, can you tell us whether 20 you're familiar with anything that was produced in 21 connection with the Ipperwash matter by members of the 22 OPP? 23 A: Approximately -- well, the first day 24 I was at Centralia I was being deployed in October for 25 the On Fire demonstration, I met a member of the OPP.


1 I'm not sure if he was ERT or TRU, I don't recall, in the 2 stairwell at our accommodations, and he had a T-shirt 3 that he was selling and it had a TRU team logo on it. 4 It was twenty dollars ($20). It was a 5 black T-shirt. I was led to believe it was a team T- 6 shirt, I guess, or event T-shirt for the project. 7 Q: And you'll see up on the screen 8 beside you, Officer LeBlanc, there is a logo. 9 A: Yes, sir. That depicts the -- the 10 shirt that I bought. 11 Q: All right. At -- at that point in 12 time, when you purchased it, did you have any inclination 13 whatsoever that this might be thought by some to be 14 offensive? 15 A: No, sir, I didn't. I didn't know 16 where the anvil came from. I'm not sure where that part 17 is. I didn't think it was offensive in looking at it. I 18 never really gave it a -- when I bought it, I looked at 19 it and it just looked like a nice logo, I guess. 20 Q: All right. That image, by the way, 21 is marked as an Exhibit, P-1494. 22 The individual that you met in the 23 stairwell that you purchased this particular item from, 24 you've indicated you didn't know if was the person -- 25 that that person was TRU or ERT.


1 Do you know who that individual was? 2 A: No, sir, I don't. 3 Q: Do you know Bill Klym? 4 A: I know the name Bill Klym. I believe 5 he's a TRU team member. 6 Q: Does that help you at all in terms of 7 identifying the person from whom you purchased this item? 8 A: No, sir. I... 9 Q: Beyond that item, sir, were there any 10 other -- any other pieces of paraphernalia that you would 11 have either been aware of or come into possession of? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: What happened with this T-shirt that 14 you have? 15 A: It -- 16 Q: Or acquired, rather? 17 A: It's basically been disposed of. I 18 was asked that earlier and I had to reflect on that as to 19 where I last saw that shirt. I came here in Forest in 20 2000. I know I didn't have it at that time period so it 21 would have been discarded as a used T-shirt some time 22 prior to that. 23 I can't give you a date. 24 Q: And I take it you were never 25 investigated as -- in connection with that T-shirt or any


1 other paraphernalia? 2 A: No, sir. 3 Q: All right. I think those are all the 4 questions that I have in-chief, Commissioner. And I note 5 the time is just about a minute before one o'clock, so 6 perhaps a lunch break might be in order. 7 However, before pursuing that, or going to 8 that, rather, we might ask the parties as to who intends 9 to cross-examine Officer LeBlanc and perhaps if they 10 could be good enough to give us an estimation. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Who intends 12 to cross-examine, please? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 17 Jackson...? 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Two (2) 19 minutes. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: Two (2) minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 22 Alexander...? 23 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Ten (10) to fifteen 24 (15) minutes. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Ten (10) to fifteen


1 (15) minutes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 3 Esmonde...? 4 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Forty-Five (45) 5 minutes to an hour. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 7 Scullion...? 8 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I think forty-Five 9 (45) minutes as well. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 11 Johnson...? 12 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Forty-Five (45) 13 minutes depending on what My Friends -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 15 Mathai...? 16 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Twenty (20) to thirty 17 (30) minutes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry? 19 MR. DONALD WORME: Twenty (20) to thirty 20 (30) minutes, I think was the... 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Up to thirty 22 (30) minutes? 23 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Yes. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Twenty (20) to thirty 25 (30) minutes.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 2 to thirty (30). What does that -- 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Given those -- given 4 those times, we are looking at three point three (3.3) 5 hours at the outside, so we ought to be able to complete 6 cross-examination today. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Whenever we 8 finish, we'll start the Motion or depending on the time. 9 It may be if we finish earlier we may call another 10 witness. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 Thank you. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: All right, thank you. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 16 adjourned until 2:00 p.m. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 1:00 p.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 2:02 p.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed. Please be seated. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, Ms. 2 Tuck-Jackson has informed that she will not be using her 3 two (2) minutes, so I take it that it's Mr. Alexander. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 5 We're up to Mr. Alexander. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I was hoping to 10 have those two (2) minutes. I can advise that I will 11 probably be briefer than my ten (10) to fifteen (15) 12 minutes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 17 Q: Good afternoon, Constable LeBlanc. 18 A: Sir. 19 Q: My name is Basil Alexander, and I'm 20 one of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George and 21 several members of the George family, including Sam 22 George, who's sitting here beside me. 23 And I anticipate My Friends will cover 24 many areas of interest to us later, but there's one (1) 25 area I want to briefly canvass with you, and that's the


1 issue of the muzzle flashes that you saw on the evening 2 of September 6th in the sand -- in the area around East 3 Parkway Drive, Army Camp Road and the sandy parking lot. 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: Now, as I understand your evidence, I 6 take it that you're only able to identify the location of 7 where you saw the flashes, not who was the source of 8 them; correct? 9 A: That is correct. 10 Q: So it's quite possible that the guns 11 of the police officers were the sources of the flashes? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: Okay. The reason why I ask that is 14 when I look at your notes, which is Tab 8, Exhibit P- 15 1554, Inquiry document number 2000 -- 2005610, and your 16 statement which is at Tab 15, Exhibit P-1557, Inquiry 17 document 2003677, both of which were completed on 18 September 7th, as I understand it? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Neither of them mention the muzzle 21 flashes. 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: The -- the first instance that I can 24 find in a written record of the muzzle flashes is in the 25 documents at Tab 23, with respect to the Deane Affidavit,


1 your Affidavit of which was -- which was with respect to 2 R. vs. Kenneth Deane in the Court of Appeal, which has 3 been marked as Exhibit P-1556, Inquiry document number 4 2005330. 5 And the earliest I could find is June 23, 6 24, 1997; correct? 7 A: I believe that's correct, sir. 8 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, 9 Constable, that you actually thought that these muzzle 10 flashes were from police officers otherwise you would 11 have included them in your notes and your statement? 12 A: I don't know, sir, whose muzzle 13 flashes they were. It is safe to say that some of them 14 were police officers'; all of them may have been. I 15 don't know where they were from. 16 Q: Thank you, Constable LeBlanc. I have 17 no further questions. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 Ms. Esmonde...? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 24 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Good afternoon, Mr. 25 Commissioner.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 2 afternoon. 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 5 Q: Good afternoon, Constable. 6 A: Good afternoon. 7 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde, and I'll 8 be asking you some questions today on behalf of the 9 Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 10 Your notes of September 6th, 1995 and the 11 events of that evening, you told us this morning that you 12 created those on the morning of September 7th? 13 A: In part, yes. 14 Q: In part? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Can you tell us which part was then 17 in the morning of September 7th and which was not? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: I believe your notes are at Tab 8 of 22 your book? 23 A: Yes, they are, I'm sorry. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 2 A: On page 45 of my notes dated the 6th 3 of September, the top of the page, you'll see "18:50" 4 where I was allocated the Checkpoint Bravo, move north to 5 Wally's and again the top of the hill, overlooking the 6 beach area. 7 In this area, those notes would have been 8 made at the time or in close proximity. Once I was moved 9 to the Checkpoint Alpha, when I was advised that there 10 was to be some changes made, the CMU was being 11 reactivated, from that point on my notes would have been 12 made the following day. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I can't say exactly what line it was 15 but -- 16 Q: Just to be clear -- 17 A: -- I -- 18 Q: -- I'm interested in your notes with 19 respect to what happened in the sandy parking lot and at 20 that intersection and you've told us that those notes 21 were made in the morning of September 7th? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And they were made before you had 24 your interview with the OPP in the afternoon? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: Now, you told us that you did not 2 know where the CMU was going or why the CMU was being 3 formed up, is that right? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: So you had no -- no idea as you 6 pulled your prisoner van out of the -- the TOC parking 7 lot what the plan was? 8 A: That's correct. I knew there were 9 CMU's being activated and it was going onto Army Camp 10 Road. I didn't know if it was an issue on the roadway or 11 the sandy parking lot or if it was Checkpoint Charlie. 12 Q: If you look at your notes at Tab 8 13 they've been marked as P-1554, at page 45, you may 14 already have that open, I believe I -- it says: 15 "Advised to start down Parkway east. 16 No one goes in, outgoing only." 17 Have I read that correctly? 18 A: Just a moment. If I can find where 19 you're referring to? Page 45? 20 Q: Page 45. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: "Advised to shut down Parkway east. 25 No one goes in. Outgoing only."


1 That's correct. 2 Q: To shut down? Is that what it says? 3 Advised to shut down Parkway east? 4 A: The eastbound. 5 Q: "No on goes in, outgoing only." 6 A: The eastbound. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And that is with respect to traffic 10 going up and down the road, is that right? 11 A: Yes, it is. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you for you that 13 clarification. 14 You were a member of the Number 2 District 15 ERT team? 16 A: Yes, I am or was. 17 Q: Now, we've heard from Constable 18 Bittner last week that the members of the Number 2 19 District ERT were canvassed regarding their concerns 20 about the operation on the evening of September 6th and 21 that he put those concerns in writing in a document that 22 I've provided a copy of on your table. 23 And, Mr. Commissioner, I've also provided 24 a copy on your table I believe. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.


1 2 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 3 Q: It's been marked as Exhibit P-1534. 4 It's Document 2002937. And the third page in at the top 5 in handwriting it says, 2 District. Do you have that 6 page? 7 A: Yes, I do. 8 Q: And we were told by Constable Bittner 9 that he created this -- this statement. And I'm 10 interested in point number 1. Initially it says: 11 "The members of the 2 District ERT were 12 canvassed and would like the following 13 issues addressed at the Ipperwash 14 debriefing." 15 And we've heard that there was an 16 Ipperwash debriefing in February of 1996. 17 And then the first point is: 18 "Night deployment of the Crowd 19 Management Unit. Why was the CMU 20 deployed at night? The briefing held 21 at the Forest Detachment was on 6 22 September,'95." 23 Sorry. 24 "The briefing held at the Forest 25 Detachment on 6 September,'95 indicated


1 that any obstructions in the beach area 2 such as picnic benches would be removed 3 during daylight hours." 4 Do you see that? 5 A: Yes, I do. 6 Q: And would you agree with Constable 7 Bittner that the officers of Number 2 District ERT had a 8 concern about why the CMU was deployed at night? 9 A: I agree that he had that concern 10 obviously that he put down after canvassing the members. 11 Q: And did you -- 12 A: I don't -- 13 Q: -- express that concern to him? 14 A: I don't recall if that was a concern 15 that I expressed. 16 Q: You had that concern? 17 A: I do not recall that. 18 Q: Were you part of a briefing at the 19 Forest Detachment on 6 September, 1995, in which you were 20 told that any obstructions in the beach area would be 21 removed during daylight hours? 22 A: That sounds familiar as far as the 23 early morning debriefing after removing the picnic 24 tables. 25 Q: And who would have given you that


1 briefing? 2 A: I don't recall, I'm sorry. 3 Q: And can you tell us whether the 4 Number 2 District ERT ever got a satisfactory answer to 5 the question that was posed by -- apparently posed by 6 Constable Bittner as to why you were sent down the road 7 at night instead of waiting for the morning? 8 A: I remember speaking to one (1) of my 9 team members, perhaps it may have been Constable Bittner 10 in relation to his -- this debriefing. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: I never received any reply on any of 13 the things that we have discussed in that conversation. 14 And I wasn't part of this debriefing or this meeting, if 15 that's what it was. 16 Q: So the answer then would be no, that 17 as far as you're aware no satisfactory answer to that 18 question was given to the Number 2 district ERT team 19 members? 20 A: I never received -- I didn't know 21 that was a submission, first off. I wasn't part of the 22 debriefing. If there was an answer given to Constable 23 Bittner or to somebody else, I -- I don't know that 24 information. 25 Q: Now, in the course of the operation


1 while you were in the prisoner van, you were the second 2 prisoner van in line as you were travelling down the 3 road? 4 A: Aye. 5 Q: And once you were at the sandy 6 parking lot, you've told us that you stayed on the 7 asphalt while the CMU went into the parking lot. 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: The other van was on your left side? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And a bit ahead of you? 12 A: For the most part, yes. I don't 13 think I ever got in front of the other van. 14 Q: And was it blocking your view of what 15 was happening in the sandy parking lot at all? 16 A: Not of the parking lot. Perhaps to 17 the left of the parking lot. I believe there's private 18 residences along that section. 19 Q: So it would have blocked your view of 20 the -- the residences but you believe that you had a 21 clear view of what was occurring between the CMU members 22 and the Stony Pointers? 23 A: I can recall seeing the entranceway. 24 I know I couldn't see very far into -- like, going 25 towards the lake. I -- I can't comment if that was


1 because of the van at one time or another, or if that's 2 because of trees or bushes or shrubs, whatever was there. 3 I know I could see the entrance area up to 4 the fence area and then there was backlighting. So I 5 could see the entrance, I guess, is what I would say. 6 Q: Now, your role that evening would be 7 responsible for transporting any persons who were 8 arrested? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you were instructed in advance 11 that arrests were possible? 12 A: That was my understanding, yes. 13 Q: And that they were expected? 14 A: I was just directed that I was going 15 to be transporting prisoners if they were arrested back 16 to the TOC. 17 Q: How many prisoners can be transported 18 in two (2) prisoner vans? 19 A: I'd be guessing, I'm going to say 20 that you can put six (6) prisoners per prisoner van, 21 three (3) on each side, at the time, with the 22 configuration of that van. 23 Q: So, an approximation, approximately 24 twelve (12) prisoners could have been transported in the 25 two (2) vans?


1 A: I believe so, yes. Perhaps more. I 2 -- I'm not familiar, I don't normally drive a prisoner 3 van. We don't have one at our detachment. It's 4 something I don't use very often. 5 Q: Okay. Now, you've told us about the 6 -- the full-team punch out in which you saw an individual 7 break through the front line -- 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: -- did I described that accurately? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you see officers converged 12 around that individual before they arrest squad moved 13 forward? 14 A: I don't know if I would say they 15 converged, just -- maybe that they were fighting with him 16 on the ground. And then officers from the arrest squad 17 moved forward and joined those officers. 18 Q: Okay. Before the arrest squad moved 19 forward -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- how many officers were around the 22 individual? 23 A: I couldn't say, ma'am. You're 24 talking about -- I might have potentially got drawn there 25 because I saw officers running in that direction and I


1 saw there was officers fighting with him as the arrest 2 team got there. 3 There was officers there, I couldn't tell 4 you if it was one (1) or two (2) or three (3), I -- I 5 really don't have a clear recollection of that. 6 Q: Okay. I take it you -- you observed 7 what was happening very closely because you believed that 8 somebody was being arrested? 9 A: Actually, it was just one of the 10 fights that was going on. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: He was being taken into custody. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Yeah. But I was also watching 15 everything else that was going on at the same time. 16 Q: So there was some fighting with him 17 when he was on the ground? 18 A: Yes, there was. 19 Q: And when you say "fighting" you mean 20 that there were officers physically involved with him? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: They were on top of him? 23 A: When they finally got a hold of him 24 and -- 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: -- got him subdued, yeah, they were 2 on top of him. 3 Q: Just to be clear, I'm trying to -- 4 I'm trying to understand what you saw before the arrest 5 team moved forward. 6 A: Before the arrest team moved forward? 7 Q: Before the arrest team moved forward. 8 A: My observations weren't very long. 9 Q: Okay. So you -- 10 A: Half a second. 11 Q: -- you saw a fight -- 12 A: It's as they're moving forward I look 13 there and I see him on the ground. He's fighting with -- 14 with officers. More officers arrive. That's the arrest 15 team. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: That's my initial observation. 18 Q: And did those officers who were 19 around him initially, move away or did they stay there? 20 A: I couldn't tell you. There was so 21 much going on. 22 Q: And when you say that the person on 23 the ground was fighting, he was fighting while laying on 24 his back? 25 A: That's what I saw, yes.


1 Q: And you saw him being struck at least 2 twice with a baton? 3 A: Twice that I'm aware of that I -- I 4 saw the motion. I didn't see him being hit, 'cause of 5 the distance and being obscured. I saw what I believe 6 was the motion of somebody striking at him. 7 Q: Okay. And -- and this is when the 8 arrest squad had moved forward? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And am I correct that you're not 11 certain; it could have been more than one (1) officer 12 that was making the striking motion? You just saw the 13 striking motion and you can't tell if it was one (1) 14 officer doing that twice, or if it was two (2) different 15 officers? 16 A: I thought it was one (1) officer at 17 the time, it's just my recollection. 18 Q: Okay. And -- and where on his body 19 was the strike aimed at? 20 A: I couldn't tell you that, ma'am. I - 21 - I couldn't see that from where I was. I couldn't see 22 where he hit. I couldn't tell you what direction the man 23 was laying. I could see him flailing and his legs 24 kicking. 25 And then I -- basically I'm looking at a


1 silhouette, I guess the easiest way to explain it, I 2 could see him silhouetted. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And you didn't see any -- there were 7 projectiles that were flying through the air at this 8 point that you've described? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: But none of those -- 11 A: During that -- during that -- 12 Q: --projectiles struck the man on the 13 ground from what you saw? 14 A: I don't know if he was struck or not. 15 I just -- projectiles landing on the parking lot. My van 16 was hit three (3) or four (4) times during this incident. 17 Q: Okay. But you didn't see any 18 projectile hit the man on the ground? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And the person or persons who struck 21 him with the baton, those were the same -- that would 22 have been the same group of people who carried him back 23 to the prisoner van? 24 A: I can't tell you that. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: It appeared that there was officers 4 fighting with him, trying to get control of him. When 5 they did get control of him, they picked him up and they 6 carried him back to the roadway. 7 If officers came into that fight and then 8 left, I don't know. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: It appeared -- it appeared when I 11 first -- when I saw them picking him up, I interpreted it 12 that they were the arrest team, because they weren't 13 carrying shields. 14 That's -- if that helps any, that... 15 Q: And the person or persons who struck 16 him were not -- was not carrying a shield, either? 17 A: I can't say that, ma'am. When that 18 fight was going on, there was officers in front of me, 19 between me and that fight and officers beyond. 20 Most of them were carrying shields. If 21 there was somebody in the fight with a shield or without 22 a shield, I wouldn't have seen it or it was obstructed. 23 I know there was officers that didn't have 24 shields that picked him up. 25 Q: Now, you'd agree with me you've had a


1 number of opportunities to provide written statements or 2 verbal statements about what you saw? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: There's your notes, your OPP 5 statement from September 7th and your SIU interview in 6 1997? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And you would agree with me that in - 9 - on none of those occasions or in any of those notes, do 10 you mention seeing Cecil Bernard George struck at least 11 twice with a baton? 12 A: I'd have to review the statements 13 independently, but I don't believe that it was mentioned. 14 I believe... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: No, I don't think it's in the 19 statement. 20 Q: Well, I can tell you I've reviewed 21 those statements very carefully and I see no mention of 22 it. 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: Now, you knew that the purpose of the 25 SIU interview that you attended in 1997, was to determine


1 how Cecil Bernard George had received his injuries and 2 whether unlawful force was used by police officers? 3 A: That was my understanding at the 4 time, yes. 5 Q: And you knew at that time that there 6 was an allegation that Cecil Bernard George had been 7 beaten by police officers? 8 A: I didn't know that, but I understood 9 that the alle -- the investigation of the SIU was to 10 determine if excessive use of force was used against him, 11 not if it was any one officer or if it was a combination 12 of what had occurred. 13 Q: Is it your evidence, then, that you 14 were not aware that generally in the public and the media 15 that there was an allegation that OPP officers had beaten 16 Cecil Bernard George on the evening of September 6th? 17 A: I was aware that he had been injured 18 in -- in that confrontation and that he was hospitalized 19 and that that was being -- his injuries and that incident 20 was under investigation by the SIU. I think in your 21 question you stated that an officer beat him. I didn't 22 know that any officer -- one (1) officer had beat this 23 man. My understanding of the SIU investigation was they 24 were investigating how he received the injuries which he 25 was reporting.


1 Q: And whether the injuries he received 2 were as a result of being struck by one (1) or more 3 police officers, correct? 4 A: If you want to use the words, "struck 5 by the police officers," yeah, I don't know how he got 6 his injuries. 7 Q: And yet you didn't disclose during 8 that interview your observations of him being struck at 9 least twice with a baton? 10 A: When I entered into the interview it 11 was agreed upon by the SIU as well as myself and counsel 12 that I would answer every and all questions to the best 13 of my ability. I was never asked if I saw Mr. Cecil 14 Bernard George hit by any of the members of the CMU. 15 Q: So is it your evidence then that in 16 your view you were not asked directly by the SIU if you 17 had seen him struck by a police officer? 18 A: I answered their questions to the 19 best of my ability at the time in my recollection. 20 Q: And that you saw no obligation on 21 yourself to offer that information? 22 A: I was asked by my employer under a 23 directive to answer those questions and I answered them. 24 Q: I put to you, Officer, that you 25 intentionally withheld that information from the SIU in


1 an effort to protect your fellow officers? 2 A: No, ma'am, I never held any 3 information. When I watched this fight, and that's what 4 it was, I didn't see anything or any officer do an action 5 or something that raised me a concern beyond the fact 6 that it was officers fighting with a person on the ground 7 trying to get control of him and he was fighting back. 8 I saw what I thought was to be a baton 9 strike. To me it appeared to be totally appropriate to 10 fighting somebody who's on the ground; that's the best I 11 can tell you. 12 Q: I take from that then your -- your 13 conclusion based on what you saw was that no excessive 14 force was used? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: But you understood that there was an 17 independent investigation being carried on by the SIU 18 that would -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- interview many officers and bring 21 together evidence and reach its own conclusions? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And it wasn't for you to substitute 24 your own opinion for that of the SIU? 25 A: I -- Ma'am, I didn't substitute that


1 objective with my own opinion, I answered all the 2 questions that were asked of me. 3 Q: Thank you. We have your evidence. 4 You've told us that when Cecil Bernard 5 George was brought back to the prisoner van you were 6 asked by someone to get an ambulance for him? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And that you in fact made that 9 request over the radio? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: And when you took -- sorry, when the 12 prisoner vans went back to the TOC site you took that 13 opportunity to check on the condition of the prisoner? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: And you went and got a medic to take 16 a look at him? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And there were at least two (2), 19 possibly three (3) ambulances in the TOC parking lot at 20 that time? 21 A: I believe there was two (2). 22 Q: And can you tell me why you didn't go 23 immediately to get an ambulance for this man as had been 24 requested while you were down at the sandy parking lot? 25 A: It was an option I guess I had, that


1 I wanted to have him checked by the medic. I felt that 2 he was probably better trained than the ambulance 3 personnel. 4 Q: You felt that the TRU medic was 5 better trained than the paramedics? 6 A: That is what I was led to believe. 7 Q: Let to believe by whom? 8 A: Prior information that I had that 9 they had a medic who was able to hook up IV's and do 10 medical preventative -- take medical preventative steps 11 to deal with trauma cases which is why they had a medic 12 on a TRU team. If the TRU team was there I believe he 13 was deployed and that's why I went there and checked. If 14 he wasn't there, I would have grabbed an ambulance 15 attendant. 16 Q: Now, the medic that you -- that saw 17 Cecil Bernard George appeared to be quite concerned about 18 Cecil Bernard -- Bernard George's physical condition? 19 A: He directed me to turn him over to 20 the ambulance, that he be transported. 21 Q: And that he be -- be transported 22 right away to a hospital? 23 A: Yeah, it was right now, it wasn't to 24 be later on. That's correct. 25 Q: Now, you -- you told us that you


1 formed the impression that Cecil Bernard George was 2 extremely intoxicated, and in fact you told the SIU that 3 during their investigation. 4 A: His physical demeanour, the -- the 5 way he was comporting himself was consistent with being 6 heavily intoxicated. Although I didn't smell the smell 7 of alcohol, his physicals were consistent with that, yes. 8 Q: And you told the SIU that you formed 9 that impression that he was extremely intoxicated? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: And this was someone that you had 12 seen being struck by a baton at least twice? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Who had been involved in what you 15 described as a fight with police officers? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: In which police officers were on top 18 of him? 19 A: At one point, yeah. 20 Q: And you saw that he had injuries to 21 his face, including an abrasion to his eye? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And you agreed this morning that his 24 behaviour was also consistent with someone who had a 25 traumatic head injury?


1 A: It could be. There -- provided that 2 as one of the other reasons or observations I've seen 3 with other people I've dealt with through my career. 4 Q: And you've -- you've repeated again 5 there was no smell of alcohol, which you would expect for 6 someone who is heavily intoxicated. 7 A: Yes. If it was by alcohol. 8 Q: And yet is it your evidence that you 9 concluded that evening that the most likely cause of 10 Cecil Bernard George's semi-conscious state was that he 11 was heavily intoxicated? 12 A: No. His physicals were consistent 13 with a person who was heavily intoxicated. They could 14 have been from other reasons. As I stated earlier, he 15 could have been a diabetic, he could have been suffering 16 from head trauma. 17 Q: Well, when you -- 18 A: I don't know that, but from my 19 experience, the amount of people I've dealt with, the 20 majority of those would be people who have been 21 intoxicated by drug or by alcohol. 22 Q: Sir, wouldn't you agree, with what 23 you had seen and what you had heard that evening, that 24 the most likely cause of Cecil Bernard George's behaviour 25 in consc -- semi- conscious state, was that he had been


1 injured, that he had a head injury? 2 A: I don't know that. 3 Q: I put to you, sir, that you told the 4 SIU that your impression was that Cecil Bernard George 5 was extremely intoxicated because, again, you were trying 6 to protect your fellow officers. 7 A: I wasn't trying to protect anybody. 8 Q: You were trying to undermine Cecil 9 Bernard George's credibility. 10 A: No, I wasn't. Those are the 11 observations that I made at the time. Those are the 12 observations I reported to the SIU. And that hasn't 13 changed. 14 If I saw him today, acting the way he was 15 that day, from 5 feet away, without smelling alcohol on 16 him, the impression I'd have is he'd be heavily 17 intoxicated. If I found out other information later on 18 that he was a diabetic, then I'd know he was probably 19 having a diabetic reaction. 20 Q: And if you found out other 21 information that the person you saw today had been -- had 22 been struck by other persons, would you not conclude that 23 his behaviour was as a result of an injury? 24 A: It could be a result of a head 25 trauma, yes.


1 Q: Now, moving ahead to your interaction 2 with Marcia Simon. You would agree with me that while 3 you dealing with Ms. Simon she was cooperative with you 4 and with the other police officers? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you told us that you were told by 7 Constable Gransden that she was arrested for failing to 8 stop for police? 9 A: That's what I understood, yes. 10 Q: And that she had asked you herself 11 why she was arrested and you told her that it was for 12 failing to stop for police? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And based on her question to you, 15 would you agree that she did not appear to know why she 16 was under arrest? 17 A: I don't know if I can articulate what 18 she understood or she didn't understand. She asked what 19 the reason was for her arrest at the Detachment and I 20 told her that it was for failing to stop. 21 Q: I'm not asking you to read her mind, 22 I'm just asking whether you formed the impression based 23 on a question that she did not know why she was under 24 arrest? 25 A: Or that she didn't -- whether or not


1 she knew -- I knew she -- she appreciated she was under 2 arrest. My understanding is she wanted it clarified as to 3 for what reason; being the failed to stop. 4 Q: Are you aware that she was never 5 charged with failing to stop for police? 6 A: Didn't have that information. Don't 7 know. 8 Q: Are you aware she's never been 9 charged with impersonating a military officer or a police 10 officer? 11 A: I don't have that information. 12 Q: She was never charged with any 13 offence in relation to her wearing of the military 14 jacket? 15 A: I don't know that, ma'am. 16 Q: And at the time you were not aware of 17 any allegation on the part of the officers who turned her 18 over to you that she had failed to stop at a stop sign? 19 A: I'm sorry? Could you -- 20 Q: You weren't told that one of the 21 reasons for her arrest was that she had failed to stop at 22 a stop sign? 23 A: No, it wasn't. It was for failing to 24 stop for police. 25 Q: And none of the officers who turned


1 her over to you made any allegation that she was under 2 the influence of drugs or alcohol? 3 A: I don't recall that, no. 4 Q: And they made no allegation to you 5 that she was involved in the shooting incident in any 6 way? 7 A: That wasn't my understanding, no. 8 Q: Were you aware that she was 9 attempting to get an ambulance at the time that she was 10 stopped by police? 11 A: No, ma'am, I wasn't. 12 Q: So the officers who turned her over 13 to you did not mention that to you? 14 A: No, ma'am. 15 Q: I have a few questions about your 16 role after the shooting. I understand you were in the 17 area for some time, involved in some of the patrolling 18 and checkpoints? 19 A: The running of checkpoints, yes. 20 Q: Okay. Could you turn up your notes 21 for September 11th which are at your Tab 8, or if you 22 wish to look at your original notes. Could you turn to 23 page 63? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: These have been marked -- this set of 4 notes has been marked as P-1554, Inquiry Document 5 2005610. 6 I'm interested in an entry that you have 7 in the second half of that page. You see there's a 8 little arrow and then it seems to say: 9 "Intel feels most will stay for funeral 10 and then leave." 11 You see that? 12 A: Yes, I do. 13 Q: And then it goes on: 14 "Wake will possibly last as long as 15 alcohol." 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And what does it say after that? 18 A: "Still hardcore about." 19 Q: This entry about "wake will possibly 20 last as long as alcohol", was that information you 21 received from intelligence, is that what this "intel 22 feels"? 23 A: I don't believe it was from the 24 intelligence. I believe it was from the morning briefing 25 from that day.


1 Q: So you were given a morning briefing 2 in which you were told that it was thought the wake will 3 possibly last as long as alcohol? 4 A: That's the notation that I have, yes. 5 Q: And who conducted that briefing? 6 A: I don't recall, ma'am. 7 Q: Were you told the source of that 8 information? 9 A: In my notes I have a notation about 10 that, in relation to the forecast of the funeral being at 11 eleven o'clock. Advised that LCBO and the beer store was 12 sold out and that they were expecting a very large crowd. 13 Q: It says: 14 "Beer store is sold out [sorry] LCBO 15 and beer store is sold out of beer and 16 whisky." 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Okay. And in your briefing were you 19 told that it was believed that the reason that the LCBO 20 owned beer stores were sold out of beer and whisky was 21 because of purchases by First Nations people? 22 A: The fact that there -- that -- there 23 was being a large gathering of people after the wake, 24 yes, that was my understanding. 25 Q: So the lack of beer and whisky for


1 purchase, you believed, was as a result of the First 2 Nations people who had gathered in the area for the 3 funeral of Dudley George? 4 A: I think it was for the wake 5 afterwards, yes. 6 Q: Now you -- 7 A: That's the information that was 8 conveyed to me. 9 Q: You were also aware that there had 10 been an influx of people of all races into the area 11 following the shooting? 12 A: Into this area? 13 Q: That's right. 14 A: I was aware of an increase of people, 15 the First Nations, into the area. I wasn't running 16 contacts at the checkpoints, I was doing security. I 17 don't know what other increase there was. 18 Q: Well, there was an influx of police 19 officers into the area, wasn't there? 20 A: I honestly don't know that. I worked 21 with my team. I know, I believe Number 1 District ERT 22 and possibly Number 3 were sent back and I don't know if 23 they were replaced by other ERT members or not. 24 Q: So you're not -- 25 A: I know there was more uniform


1 personnel that I saw. 2 Q: But there were more police officers 3 in the area than there were before the shooting, correct? 4 A: I think that's safe to say, but I 5 honestly don't know. 6 Q: You don't know that? 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: There was also an influx of reporters 9 into the area? 10 A: I never spoke to any reporters or 11 seen any reporters, but I'll take a guess that there was. 12 Q: And an influx of other supporters, of 13 both sides? 14 A: I didn't -- I don't know. It's hard. 15 Supporters on both sides. I don't understand the 16 question or... 17 Q: Well, if there was an influx of 18 people into the area who supported the First Nations 19 people? 20 A: I don't know that or not. I can't 21 tell you if the motels were full at that time or if there 22 was more people in the area or not. I was assigned to my 23 checkpoints and when I wasn't there I was sleeping. 24 Q: Thank you. Now, you've told us about 25 hearing gunshots in relation to the car, when the car


1 pulled out into the road. 2 A: When the car made the turn in front 3 of us? 4 Q: Correct. 5 A: Okay. Because you said pulled out -- 6 Q: Well, that was -- that was the only 7 time. 8 A: I just want to -- I just want to make 9 sure I understand where you're referring to. 10 Q: Well, there was only -- there was 11 only one (1) time period in which you described hearing 12 gunshots. 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Correct? And that was in relation to 15 the car having pulled up in front of you? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And during this gunfire you heard 18 different types of guns going off? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you concluded as a result of that 21 that there was an exchange of fire going on? 22 A: That was my belief then and now, yes. 23 Q: Sorry, that's your belief now? 24 A: I heard different guns going off, 25 yes. There was an exchange of gunfire that occurred.


1 Q: Isn't it true that all you can say 2 based on what you saw and heard is that different types 3 of firearms were being discharged? 4 A: That's very fair to say, yes. 5 Q: And you were aware that there were a 6 variety of different firearms in the hands of the OPP who 7 were there that evening? 8 A: Shotguns, .223 calibre rifles and 9 pistols I believe, .40 calibre pistols. 10 Q: Sorry, .40 calibre pistols? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that was the firearm that was... 13 A: That's the issued sidearm for -- 14 Q: That's the issued sidearm? 15 A: Yes. And then there was the .223 16 rifle and the 12 gauge shotgun. 17 Q: So what you heard would be consistent 18 with OPP officers firing different types of weapons? 19 A: I wouldn't agree with that, no. The 20 -- the initial shots that I heard were gunshots. Then I 21 heard a flurry of gunshots going off. That flurry of 22 gunshots going off were consistent with a .40 calibre 23 handgun. 24 After that I also heard shots going off 25 which were not, in my opinion, .40 calibre handgun


1 rounds. So the first few shots at the start and then the 2 ones where I -- in my notebook I made a notation 3 referring to them as, "rapid fire," or "sequential 4 firing" -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- those weren't consistent in sound 7 with the ones that I heard this flurry of gunfire. 8 That's why I say there was more than one (1) calibre 9 being used. 10 Q: Okay. Let me try and understand what 11 you just said. I'm not an expert in firearms so 12 sometimes you lose me but -- 13 A: Neither am I. 14 Q: And neither are you. So you -- you 15 heard some initial gunshots and then you heard what you 16 thought was the .40 calibre; is that right? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And the initial shots, you're saying 19 those could not have been from an OPP officer? 20 A: I'm saying they weren't consistent 21 with a .40 calibre handgun. 22 Q: Okay. But officers had other weapons 23 with them apart from a .40 calibre, correct? 24 A: It didn't sound like a .223 high 25 powered rifle going off and it definitely wasn't a 12


1 gauge shotgun. 2 Q: Are you aware of what kind of firearm 3 the TRU members were carrying with them? 4 A: I know they carry a 9 millimetre 5 handgun on their side and an assault rifle, and I don't 6 know what the calibre of that is. 7 Q: Okay. And you don't know what they 8 sound like when they go off? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And you told us that the next day you 11 saw a TRU officer with a firearm that you didn't 12 recognize? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: So wouldn't you agree with me then -- 15 sir, we've also heard evidence from Mr. Lacroix that he 16 was carrying a .38 calibre firearm and he was probably 17 the only officer there that had one. Do you know what a 18 .38 calibre sounds like when it goes off? 19 A: Yes, I do. 20 Q: And is that consistent with what you 21 heard? 22 A: It -- it's a long time ago but I'd 23 say that it wouldn't be inconsistent with it. It's a 24 different sounding than the .40 calibre. 25 Q: So you'd agree with me then that what


1 you heard would be consistent with a scenario on which 2 OPP officers were firing different types of weapons? 3 A: I don't know if those were all OPP 4 rounds. I mean -- 5 Q: I -- I know you don't know -- you 6 don't -- you didn't see any -- 7 A: I -- I don't want to say that those 8 rounds were all OPP rounds because I don't know if Wade 9 Lacroix had a different gun than a .40 calibre, if he was 10 carrying still the model 10 .38 calibre, which was the 11 prior sidearm issued, and he fired rounds, then, yes, it 12 would have made a different sound. 13 Q: Well, I can tell you, sir, he has 14 testified here that he had a .38 calibre with him -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- that he fired it and that he in 17 fact turned that over to officers. So given that... 18 A: It is conceivable that the rounds I 19 heard were police rounds then, yes. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, you -- you told Mr. Alexander, 24 who asked you some questions just before me, that you -- 25 you don't know who was -- who was the source of the


1 muzzle flashes that you saw. 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And did you believe -- you believed 4 at the time, didn't you, that the muzzle flashes that you 5 saw were OPP officers firing at the car? 6 A: I didn't draw a conclusion at the 7 time as to who owned those muzzle flashes or -- or even 8 what direction they were pointed at; I don't know that, 9 like, I -- I couldn't make that judgment. All I can tell 10 you is they were muzzle flashes. 11 Q: And it was around this time that you 12 pulled out your own weapon, the -- the mini-Ruger. 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And -- but you couldn't get a 15 sighting, you told us. 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And you didn't want to fire 18 indiscriminately at muzzle shots, for example, if you 19 didn't know what was the cause of the muzzle flash? 20 A: I didn't have a reason to fire, no. 21 Q: I wanted to ask you about the -- the 22 map that you were asked some questions about this 23 morning. It's attached to your affidavit. It's, I 24 believe, your Tab 23. It's my Tab 23, it might be your 25 Tab 20 --


1 MR. DONALD WORME: It is Tab 23. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 4 Q: Oh, it is Tab 23, second page in from 5 the back. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You -- the muzzle flashes are 8 identified with X's; do you see that? 9 A: The areas that I saw them, yes. 10 Q: Just for the record, this is P-1556. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 14 Q: I forgot to mention that. 15 Now, did you draw those on? Did you draw 16 those muzzle flash X's or did somebody else draw that as 17 a result of your description? 18 A: I recognize this as being from the 19 interview with -- I believe it was Ron Piers. I don't 20 recall if I drew them on there or if he did. It was the 21 area of the X's, it wasn't pinpoint at that time and nor 22 is it now. I don't have a recollection of exactly them 23 being where the X's are. 24 In my description to him, it was between 25 myself and the car, was muzzle flashes I seen closer to


1 the car. And I see there's an 'X' there, in that 2 proximity. I guess that's why I would say those are the 3 approximate areas of where I saw muzzle flashes. 4 Q: It is consistent with what you've 5 described to us today -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- in your testimony. Just before 8 that map though, there's a statement of Denis LeBlanc, or 9 do you go by Dennis? 10 A: Either one. 11 Q: Okay. And you see it's a typed -- 12 it's a typed statement? 13 A: Yes, it is. 14 Q: And you created this statement? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And you describe the muzzle flashes 17 at the second page of the statement, in the middle 18 paragraph there, you say: 19 "I looked back as I heard several more 20 shots being fired." 21 Are you with me? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: "And observed muzzle flashes coming 24 from between the car and myself, in 25 line with the driver's door and myself.


1 I also saw muzzle flashes come from the 2 front right of the car and a muzzle 3 flash come from the rear left of the 4 car." 5 Do you see that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You'd agree with me that's not 8 consistent with where the X's are marked on this map? 9 A: Actually, I disagree with that 10 statement. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: That description is accurate with 13 where the X's are. 14 Q: Well, let's look at this then. You 15 said you saw muzzle flashes coming from "between the car 16 and myself." 17 I think we can probably both agree that 18 there's -- that must refer to the small X which is on the 19 lefthand side of the car, the driver's side of the car? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: "I also saw muzzle flashes come from 22 the 23 right -- front right of the car." 24 And that's consistent with the X which is 25 just ahead of the passenger's side of the car?


1 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: "And a muzzle flash come from the 3 rear left of the car." 4 Are you suggesting, sir, that this X on 5 the map, which is coming from the shoulder of the road, 6 fits that description? 7 A: If you're sitting in the driver's 8 seat of that car, it does, it's to the rear and left. 9 Q: Would you not agree with me that the 10 impression given by the words you've used there is that 11 the muzzle flash is near the car, not across the road and 12 in the shoulder of the road? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: It's to the rear and the left of the 17 car. That's the area that I identified during the 18 interview. The roadway is 20 feet wide, there's a car 19 broadside in the middle on the one (1) lane of it. 20 I guess if you wanted to have the car to 21 scale it would be half the size of the roadway, or more, 22 because it's turned on an angle. 23 So when you look at it on the -- on the 24 map, it looks like it's a distance because the car is 25 small. I didn't draw the cars to scale, I guess is what


1 I'm saying, so. 2 Q: So it's -- in your view, this is 3 consistent with the words that you used in the statement? 4 A: Yes, it is. 5 Q: We have your evidence, then. Now, 6 this statement was given to Ron Piers on -- on or about 7 June 23rd, 1997? 8 A: On or about. I believe it was handed 9 to Mr. Piers on the 24th. 10 Q: Right. And how did that interview 11 come about, sir? 12 A: I was contacted, I believe, a week 13 prior by Detective Constable Dew. I was advised that 14 there was an appeal process which was in place for Mr. 15 Deane, and then I was requested to meet with an 16 investigator, Ron Piers, at the residence of Norm Peel, 17 which is apparently his office as well, in order to 18 conduct an interview in relation to that. 19 And I was provided with a date and a time 20 as to when to be there. 21 Q: And did you speak with your superior 22 officer to let them know -- him or her know that you 23 would be attending this interview with Ron Piers? 24 A: I believe I spoke with Sergeant Brian 25 Munroe about it, who was my immediate supervisor.


1 Q: You participated in this interview 2 with Ron Piers as part of your official duties as a 3 Member of the OPP? 4 A: I believe so, yes. 5 Q: You were on duty when you -- 6 A: I was -- I was -- 7 Q: -- met with him? 8 A: Yes. I wasn't in uniform but -- I 9 don't know if I claimed overtime or if I took time in 10 lieu for it, but it was on duty time. 11 Q: And you were aware you were being 12 interviewed to find out if you had any information that 13 might be helpful in Kenneth Deane's appeal? 14 A: I was re-interviewed in relation to 15 my statement. I don't know if my information was helpful 16 or not. 17 Q: Right. But you knew that -- you knew 18 that it was with respect to the gathering of evidence for 19 Kenneth Deane's appeal? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: And you already agreed with Mr. 22 Alexander earlier that this was the first time that you 23 put in writing your -- your observations of these muzzle 24 flashes? 25 A: That's correct.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I'd like to look at the contemporary 4 records of what you saw and did on the evening of 5 September 6th, that were closer in time than your 6 interview with Ron Piers. 7 Now, you -- in your OPP statement from 8 September 7, you recall recording that you said the shots 9 fired into your radio when you saw -- when you heard 10 shots being fired? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: Okay. And that is, in fact, what you 13 did when you heard the shots, that you pushed the button 14 on your -- on the mic and you said, Shots fired? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And that's all you said about what 17 you saw or heard? 18 A: My recollection of it, yes, on the 19 radio. 20 Q: Right. And you didn't use the radio 21 to warn other officers to take cover, for example? 22 A: Everybody at that point was running 23 for the ditches. 24 Q: But -- 25 A: That was almost -- no, I didn't do


1 that on the radio. I was, I believe, cancelling the 2 ambulance. And I believe saying, Shots fired, on the 3 radio, was the only thing during that time where I used 4 the radio. 5 Q: Now, Ron Piers -- sorry, in both your 6 Affidavit that was made for the purposes of Kenneth 7 Deane's appeal and in your statement that you provided to 8 Ron Piers, you identify a flaw with the OPP interview 9 that you were involved with. 10 You recall that? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: With the OPP interview? 15 Q: Well, why don't we take a look at -- 16 A: Are you referring to when -- 17 Q: If you turn to page 23, sorry, Tab 18 23. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Which again is the Affidavit in R. -- 21 R. vs. Deane Appeal. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: I'm interested in your statement that 24 you prepared. 25 A: I'm sorry, what --


1 Q: Not the affidavit itself but the 2 statement which is attached as an exhibit to your sworn 3 affidavit. 4 A: My statement from Russ Donaldson 5 you're referring to, or from Ron Piers? 6 Q: Sorry, the statement that you 7 prepared for Ron Piers. 8 A: Okay. I'm sorry. Yes. 9 Q: And on the -- the third page of that 10 statement the top paragraph: 11 "I provided a statement of what I saw 12 and did. During the statement I was 13 stopped and advised that he only wanted 14 a statement of what I saw and heard, 15 not of what I did. I took this that 16 Constable Donaldson did not want me to 17 make any statements that might make me 18 a subject officer of an SIU 19 investigation for whatever action I may 20 have taken. 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Do you agree you wrote that? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: What information did you exclude from 25 your OPP statement as a result of this direction from


1 Constable Donaldson? 2 A: I was in the process of telling 3 Constable Donaldson that I grabbed my Ruger .223 and I 4 was stepping onto the door, opening the door up when I 5 was stopped, and he told me he didn't want to know 6 anything that I did, he just wanted to know what I saw 7 and heard. 8 Q: So you understood from that 9 direction, as you say in your statement, that Constable 10 Donaldson was signalling to you that if you did do 11 anything that would make you a subject officer, you 12 should keep that to yourself? 13 A: That was how I interpreted it. 14 Q: And did you interpret from any 15 directions given to you by Constable Donaldson that if 16 you saw anything that would make another officer a 17 subject officer, you should keep that to yourself as 18 well? 19 A: No. 20 Q: So the only information that you 21 excluded from your OPP statement as a result of this 22 comment by Constable Donaldson was any reference to you 23 grabbing your mini-Ruger? 24 A: Or any actions that I did. He wanted 25 a statement of involving the CMU actions from that night


1 and what I observed. 2 Q: Okay. Well can you tell me what 3 else you excluded then from your OPP statement as a 4 result of that direction? 5 A: Effectively that -- that was the 6 point where he told me, I don't want to know what you did 7 or anything. That was the only time during the statement 8 that -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- he stated that. 11 Q: So you agree with me that the only 12 thing you excluded from your statement, as a result of 13 the direction from Constable Donaldson, was the fact that 14 you had picked up your mini-Ruger? 15 A: And stepping out from the van, yes. 16 Q: And nothing more? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And that wasn't the reason why you 19 excluded any mention of the muzzle flashes from your OPP 20 statement? 21 A: I don't know why I didn't put that in 22 the statement when I gave it. The only thing I can tell 23 you is it was an extremely long day, I was extremely 24 tired physically, emotionally drawn out. I'd never been 25 involved in a gun incident before or anything like this.


1 It was the first time I'd been activated as a CMU member 2 or been involved in a CMU, and it was an incredible 3 scene. 4 I'm -- when I stop and think about it 5 today I don't know how to even describe it. I don't know 6 if I'm not articulate enough or just not smart enough to 7 but it's -- it's like watching a small scene out of a -- 8 a war movie. 9 When you see something like that going on, 10 that many fights going on, you see something you perceive 11 to be people you know and work with being hurt, run over 12 by a school bus, and then there's gunfire, you know, it's 13 a lot. It's something I'd think about, at first quite 14 often, now not quite so often until the -- the 15 announcement of the Inquiry. 16 Q: I want to ask you about a further -- 17 the last paragraph in your statement to Ron Piers. 18 A: Yes? 19 Q: You say: 20 "This statement is made to the best of 21 my memory of the events on the 6th of 22 September, 1995 at Ipperwash. I have, 23 where in doubt, left out items that I 24 have recalled but may have recalled 25 because of conversations with team


1 members that may have influenced my 2 memory of the incident." 3 So can we take from that that you have, 4 over the course of the years between September 6th, 1995 5 and June 24th, 1997, had conversations with other team 6 members about what happened? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that those conversations may have 9 influenced your memory of the incident? 10 A: When you're talking about it somebody 11 will tell you of -- of an incident, their perspective of 12 seeing something. The one was about a car backing into a 13 sand hill. There was talk about a dumpster being hit. 14 I don't remember seeing a dumpster. I 15 don't remember seeing a car backing into a sand hill. I 16 can see it happening if there was a dumpster there. Was 17 there a dumpster there? I don't know. I don't recall 18 it. So I don't talk about it because I honestly don't 19 remember it at this time. 20 Some time after the incident I had talked 21 with other members about small fragments and sections of 22 what had happened at that call. It was life-changing. 23 We did talk about it. 24 Your recollection is your recollection. 25 What I do remember, I remember seeing muzzle flashes. I


1 remember thinking my guy's got run over by a school bus. 2 Guys talk about there being a dumpster 3 there and it was there before. It might have been. I 4 don't recall it. Things like that I left out. 5 Q: Right. It was a traumatic event for 6 you and other officers. 7 A: I think so. 8 Q: And you wanted to talk about what -- 9 what had happened. 10 A: Most the time, no. I was trying to 11 forget it, to be truthful. 12 Q: Okay. But you did -- you did have 13 conversations with other team members, as you've told us. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And you weren't under any orders not 16 to talk with any of your fellow officers about what had 17 happened in the sandy parking lot. 18 A: We were under a gag order not to be 19 speaking about it to the public or -- short of being 20 interviewed. We did talk amongst the team members that I 21 was involved with, but I didn't talk about it with other 22 co-workers, no. 23 Q: Right. But you weren't under any gag 24 order not to talk to your fellow team members about it? 25 A: I don't think the order excluded


1 them, no. 2 Q: Okay. So you can't explain, as 3 you've told us, why it was not until after Ken Deane was 4 convicted and you had an interview with Ron Piers, that 5 you first mentioned this -- these muzzle flashes, apart 6 from that you were tired when you had your OPP interview 7 and when you prepared your notes. 8 A: That was the -- it wasn't in my notes 9 because I still remember it. My notes are to refresh my 10 memory. I didn't tell Russ Donaldson about seeing muzzle 11 flashes because it's -- to me, I was reporting to him 12 there was gunfire right in front of my van. 13 I didn't think I had to say, Including 14 muzzle flashes, because it was as close as you are to me 15 right now. It was close. I remember it today. 16 No, I didn't put it in the OPP statement. 17 And the next interview I had was with Ron Piers. 18 Q: Well, you'd agree with me there's a 19 difference between the purpose for the creation of your 20 notes and the purpose of the OPP interview? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: The OPP interview was part of a 23 parallel investigation into what had occurred in the 24 sandy parking lot? 25 A: I don't know what the parallel


1 investigation is. Are you referring to an SIU 2 investigation -- 3 Q: Well, there was an .- 4 A: -- so I understand your question. 5 Q: -- SIU investigation. 6 A: I was aware the SIU had been 7 contacted. I didn't know if they were attending or not. 8 I was under the understanding I was being interviewed so 9 that they knew what had happened and what my part was, 10 involved in the CMU. 11 Q: I see. So you understood that the 12 interview that you gave to Constable Donaldson was for 13 both use by the OPP and by the SIU; is that right? 14 A: No. That's not what I said. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: What I said was that I was under the 17 understanding the SIU had been contacted. I didn't know 18 if they were attending yet or not. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Russ Donaldson was interviewing me in 21 relation to what my part was in the CMU. As being a CMU 22 member, I could have been anywhere from prisoner van, to 23 contact, to a support officer. 24 Q: You were aware at that time that an 25 individual had died?


1 A: That morning, yes. 2 Q: When you were interviewed by the OPP 3 on the afternoon of September 7th, you were aware that 4 Dudley George had passed away as a result of a gunshot? 5 A: That somebody had passed away, I 6 didn't know it was Dudley George. 7 Q: And that the purpose of your 8 interview by the OPP was to discover what had happened; 9 it was part of an investigation, right? 10 A: It was part of that investigation, 11 yes. 12 Q: So the purpose of that was not to be 13 able to refresh your memory at some point later if you 14 were asked to testify, it was to provide all the 15 information that you had, right? 16 A: It was to find out -- my 17 understanding, when I gave the evidence and what we were 18 told to, is so that we knew where -- what member on the 19 CMU was where. I don't think they had a list before they 20 knew whether or not I was in the prisoner van or if I was 21 involved in the CMU. 22 I went in and I gave that interview on the 23 directions of Russ Donaldson, not involving what I did, 24 just what I saw and heard. 25 Personally, when I was interviewed


1 afterwards, I was expecting to have an in-depth interview 2 by the SIU in relation to the shooting incident, if they 3 were going to be attending. 4 Q: I'd put to you, sir, that the reason 5 that you didn't mention the muzzle flashes in your 6 interview with the OPP was because you didn't want to say 7 anything that may make an OPP officer a subject officer. 8 A: No, ma'am, that's not true. 9 Q: And that's also the reason why you 10 didn't mention to the OPP Constable Donaldson that you 11 had seen Cecil Bernard George struck at least twice by a 12 baton. 13 A: That's not true. The reason I didn't 14 mention about Cecil Bernard George being struck, is 15 nothing out of that was out of the ordinary. It was a 16 fight between a person on the ground and the officers 17 that were there. 18 It -- everything that I saw there was 19 appropriate. It didn't -- it wasn't something where 20 somebody came running out of the back and started hitting 21 him with a baton for no reason. It was justified in what 22 I saw from the view that I had. 23 Q: And if it was justified, then there 24 would be no -- nothing wrong with telling an OPP officer 25 what you had seen?


1 A: I wasn't trying to hide anything, 2 ma'am; that's what I'm saying. 3 Q: But you didn't disclose that 4 information? 5 A: I didn't go into detail that I was 6 asked for later on at this interview, no, I did not. 7 Q: Lastly, I'd like to ask you some 8 questions about the T-shirt that you -- 9 A: Yes, ma'am. 10 Q: -- told us that you bought. You -- 11 were you shown two (2) different designs -- 12 A: No, ma'am. 13 Q: -- of T-shirt? 14 A: No, ma'am. 15 Q: So the only design that you saw was 16 the design of the T-shirt that you purchased with the 17 broken arrow? 18 A: I thought that was the only T-shirt. 19 Q: Okay. And you didn't see anything 20 inappropriate with the design at the time? 21 A: I saw it, I didn't think there was 22 anything wrong with it, no. 23 Q: What about today, when you see that 24 logo? Do you think there's anything inappropriate about 25 it when you reflect on it and look at that design today?


1 A: Last week or the week before when I 2 initially was told that there was another T-shirt which 3 had surfaced, and I learned that it was actually a T- 4 shirt I had purchased, I was curious as to what it was. 5 The only thing I could figure was it was 6 the sign of the broken arrow on there. The anvil and the 7 ERT was just that, it was an anvil and ERT. The TRU 8 symbol has been a TRU symbol for a long time. 9 I didn't know what the significance of a 10 broken arrow was. I did a Google search on it, trying to 11 figure out what's offensive, what does it mean to the 12 Native culture. 13 The only thing I found is it was a sign of 14 peace. That's the only thing I could tell you. I don't 15 know what it meant. 16 After that I spoke to an officer in our 17 office who is a First Nations; his name is Luke George. 18 He told me that it meant a fallen spirit, in his 19 understanding of it, his interpretation. 20 What it means to one culture, it means 21 obviously something offensive to another. So am I 22 offended by it in looking at it? I still don't know what 23 it means, I'm... 24 Q: Okay. So can I take from your answer 25 then that --


1 A: No, I'm not offended by it. 2 Q: You're not offended by that T-shirt? 3 A: No, I'm not. I don't know what the - 4 - the implication of it is. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: I'm just going to get the logo up on 9 the screen. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Okay, it's up on the screen there. 14 Thank you very much, Mr. Millar. 15 Now, when you look at that emblem, you 16 said there's a symbol of the TRU on there? 17 A: I believe that's the T and the U with 18 the wings. 19 Q: The T and the U is the symbol of TRU, 20 and ERT is symbolized by the arrow? 21 A: ERT is the initials on the bottom -- 22 Q: I -- pardon me. Sorry that -- thank 23 you. This is P-1494. The ERT is symbolized by the 24 anvil. 25 A: I take it so.


1 Q: And you'd agree with me that the 2 arrow is intended to symbolize a First Nations people? 3 A: I'm not sure if that -- I mean, 4 looking at it, at the arrow, the type of it and the 5 colours that he used, I'd say it's a First Nations arrow, 6 yes. 7 Q: And would you agree with me that the 8 most obvious interpretation of this logo is that ERT and 9 TRU together broke the First Nations people? 10 A: I guess you could interpret it that 11 way if that's what you wanted. You could also say that 12 ERT and TRU and the sign of peace in the center, if 13 that's what a broken arrow actually means. 14 Q: You're suggesting that the broken 15 arrow is a sign of peace? 16 A: Ma'am, I don't know the Native 17 culture well enough. Like I said, I -- when I heard 18 about it and that it was now a T-shirt being raised at 19 the Inquiry, I did a search for a broken arrow; that's 20 what I found when I Googled it, is it was a sign of 21 peace. 22 So I don't know how to interpret it. If 23 it's a broken -- what did you say it was, community or 24 people, I don't know, I didn't find that. 25 Q: Okay. So you told us that in your


1 view that you don't see anything particularly 2 inappropriate about the design itself. What about the 3 creation of souvenirs to commemorate event -- an event in 4 which a First Nations person died? Do you see anything 5 inappropriate with creating a souvenir of that event? 6 A: That's inappropriate. 7 Q: And you told us that you discarded 8 this T-shirt as a used T-shirt? 9 A: Yes, that's correct. 10 Q: I take it then that you must have 11 worn it? 12 A: I'm sure I probably did, it was 13 black. 14 Q: And you wore it frequently? 15 A: I wouldn't say that. 16 Q: Well, you discarded it as a used T- 17 shirt? 18 A: From 19 -- 19 Q: Had you not used it to such a point 20 that it was worn out and you decided to get rid of it? 21 A: From 1994 until today I have still 22 black ERT T-shirts which I was issued from the OPP. I 23 wear a black T-shirt underneath my body armour when I 24 work every shift where I'm not wearing a tie or a dickie, 25 which means anything other than wintertime or attending


1 court. I go through probably four (4) to five (5) black 2 T-shirts a week according to my wife and the laundry 3 hamper. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: This is one (1) of them. 6 Q: So this the shirt -- 7 A: Out of -- out of forty (40) T-shirts 8 or fifty (50) T-shirts that I have I'm probably down to 9 about two (2) or three (3) T-shirts that are just about 10 done and I've replaced them with other black T-shirts. 11 This is just one (1) of the black T-shirts I wear, ma'am. 12 Q: Okay. So this is a T-shirt that you 13 would have worn while you were on duty as an OPP officer? 14 A: Yes, ma'am. 15 Q: Now, you've told us that you were not 16 -- I believe you told us that you were not questioned as 17 part of any investigation into the creation of this T- 18 shirt? 19 A: No, I wasn't. 20 Q: Were you aware that there was an 21 investigation into the creation of at least one (1) T- 22 shirt and a mug? 23 A: I inquired as to what T-shirt it was 24 and I was told it was a T-shirt with a feather on it. I 25 didn't --


1 Q: Who told -- 2 A: -- believe that my T-shirt was an 3 issue until last week. 4 Q: Who told you that the investigation 5 was into a T-shirt with a feather? 6 A: I believe it was just through general 7 information in the police community that there was an 8 ongoing Professional Standards investigation involving a 9 T-shirt which came out of the Ipperwash incident which 10 had a feather on it. 11 Q: And you didn't see that as being 12 relevant to a T-shirt that you -- you, yourself, had 13 purchased as part of the Ipperwash incident? 14 A: Mine didn't have a feather on it, no. 15 Q: And you didn't come forward to say I 16 bought this T-shirt which has a different design with a 17 broken arrow? 18 A: I received the T-shirt in October of 19 '95, the one -- the logo that's on here. The term, 20 "Project Maple," I hadn't heard of until October of '95. 21 I didn't know of this T-shirt was in relation to the On 22 Fire demonstration that we were there for at the Pinery. 23 Later on I heard that it was -- Project Maple was a term 24 used for the Ipperwash investigation. 25 Q: So are you suggesting, sir, that you


1 thought that the T-shirt that you purchased might have 2 been to commemorate the policing of the On Fire? 3 A: That -- 4 Q: The policing of the On Fire 5 demonstration with respect to the Pinery Park? 6 A: I didn't know what it was to 7 commemorate at all, it was a team T-shirt that I bought 8 at that time. I didn't understand it to be a 9 commemorative T-shirt if that's what you're calling it. 10 To me I thought it was just a team T-shirt. 11 Q: But you understood it was with 12 respect to the Ipperwash operation? 13 A: No, I didn't. 14 Q: Well, what meaning did you take -- 15 A: I would have got it at Ipperwash when 16 there was an ongoing investigation by PSB for those T- 17 shirts with a feather on it. 18 Q: What meaning did you take from the 19 fact that there was an arrow on the T-shirt? Did you not 20 understand that it -- that was with respect to the 21 interaction -- 22 A: Not -- 23 Q: -- between the OPP and First Nations 24 people in the Ipperwash incident? 25 A: I didn't know what it was, ma'am. I


1 looked at it. It was a logo. It was a black T-shirt. 2 Somebody was selling it. I bought it. 3 Q: Did you purchase a mug? 4 A: No, ma'am. I didn't know anything 5 about a mug until probably 1996. 6 Q: Did you see any other officers 7 wearing either the T-shirt you purchased or the T-shirt 8 with a feather on it? 9 A: Never saw the T-shirt with the 10 feather on it. I don't think I've ever seen anybody else 11 wearing this black T-shirt, the one with the TRU logo. 12 Q: Are you aware of whether Kenneth 13 Deane purchased a T-shirt? 14 A: No idea, ma'am. 15 Q: And were you asked by anyone whether 16 or not you had a souvenir T-shirt of any kind with 17 respect to the Ipperwash incident prior to May 12th, 18 2006? 19 A: I don't believe I was, no. 20 Q: Thank you very much, sir. 21 A: Thank you. 22 Q: Mr. Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 24 Ms. Esmonde. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 4 Scullion...? 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 7 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. 8 Good afternoon, Officer LeBlanc. 9 A: Good afternoon. 10 Q: My name is Kevin Scullion. I'm one 11 of Counsel for the residents of Aazhoodena. You might 12 know them better as the Stoney Point Group. 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: I was listening to your evidence this 15 morning and I was interested to hear that your impression 16 back in August of 1995, when you were called out to do 17 various patrols of the Ipperwash area, that your 18 understanding of the situation was that the Stoney 19 Pointers had reclaimed the Army Base or the Army Camp 20 lands. 21 Do you recall giving that evidence? 22 A: I was aware that there was people 23 identified as squatters in the Army Camp. I don't know 24 if -- I believe they were identifying themselves as 25 Stoney Point and --


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- I'm not sure if they were or not. 3 Q: But the term that you used was 4 "reclaimed" and I -- I'm asking whether that was your 5 understanding at the time, in August of 1995, that the 6 people that you've just referred to as squatters were 7 reclaiming those lands as their own? 8 A: I guess I'm not fully understanding 9 your question, sir. When -- did I believe that they were 10 claiming their lands, that they had -- 11 Q: It may mean more to me than yourself 12 but -- 13 A: Maybe you -- 14 Q: -- this -- 15 A: -- maybe you could just change the 16 question, I'm not fully understanding it. 17 Q: It's just the term you used. Maybe 18 I'll just refer you to one of your documents, which 19 unfortunately my tabs are a little off from a re- 20 ordering, but I've got P-1553, which -- which is Tab 6 21 for you. 22 My apologies, Mr. Commissioner, I'm 23 working off an index that was current as of Friday night. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 2 Q: In the third line of your operation 3 report, which comes from your patrols, I take it, of the 4 Ipperwash area? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: You've got a note, it just says: 7 "21:00 Noted Native patrol driving 8 beach using the high intensity light." 9 I take it that's a patrol that you saw on 10 the Army Camp side? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Okay. And I take it that simply 13 making a note of it without any further details, it 14 wasn't something that you took all that much interest in 15 given that it was on the Army Camp side of the beach? 16 A: May I refer to my notes as well, sir, 17 but I believe it was just we saw a car with a spotlight 18 out the passenger side during a patrol. 19 Q: Right. It wasn't all that unusual. 20 A: That's all -- 21 Q: You'd seen that before as well, 22 right? 23 A: Prior to this date, sir, I don't know 24 if I did see something like that before or not. 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: I -- 2 Q: In that period -- 3 A: -- I don't recall. Sorry. 4 Q: From your evidence this morning you 5 referred to that period that you were doing that patrol, 6 the four (4) period, that it was fairly quiet, there was 7 nothing of any real note for you. 8 Do you recall giving that evidence? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: In your notes you have a number of 11 notations simply, of people or vehicles that were pulled 12 over and people in the vehicles that were identified. I 13 take it that the simple notation in your book without any 14 further details means that it wasn't an incident of any 15 real note. 16 Is that fair? 17 A: That's -- that's fair. Unless 18 there's -- I don't believe there's any arrests that were 19 made or any enforcement action taken. 20 Q: Okay. I raise that because if you 21 look at your notes, P-1554, which again I think for you 22 is Tab 8. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: I've gotten that right. Page 39. If 25 you refer at the bottom, page 39.


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And if you go to your note at 21:35. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Could you just read that for me so I 5 make sure I've got it correct? 6 A: "21:35 10-21", which is a 10 code for 7 telephone call. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: "London Comm Centre request ATS at 10 Force Detachment re. Ipperwash 11 uprising." 12 Q: Okay. That term, "Ipperwash 13 uprising," is that your term? 14 A: Don't know, sir, if that's something 15 that was said to me or if that's a term that I used on my 16 own. 17 Q: You can't help me as to whether or 18 not it came from the call that you received to attend 19 Forest or whether that's just simply your note of being 20 called out again? 21 A: I honestly don't know, sir. 22 Q: If you go down to the bottom of that 23 page, there's a note at 21:20 hours. Does that say "face 24 off with..."? 25 A: 22:20? Is that the notation, sir?


1 Q: Bottom of page 39. 2 A: Yes. 22:20, which is 10:20 p.m. Oh, 3 okay, I see where you're looking, sir. 4 Q: If you just go down a couple -- 5 A: I'm sorry. 6 Q: -- more lines, there's "O/IC". 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Maybe you could just read that for 9 me? 10 A: Okay. And you're looking further 11 down. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: It's: 14 "Incident at 21:20 hours. Face-off 15 with Number 1 District team. Backed 16 off. Broken police window on cruiser." 17 Q: And my question for you is: When you 18 attended for this initial briefing on September 4th, was 19 it your impression that the OPP approach to the situation 20 was to remove the people from the Park as soon as 21 possible? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: No. It was, in your words earlier 24 this morning, simply contain and negotiate. 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: All right. No movement on the people 2 in the Park, just let them be until we have something to 3 -- such as the injunction that you referred to this 4 morning. 5 A: I don't know what the resolution was 6 going to be, but mine was to contain and -- to contain 7 the area and maintain a police presence, ensure public 8 safety. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now, you referred this morning to a 14 note in your notes that said September the 5th was a 15 seventeen (17) hour day. 16 Do you remember being referred to that? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Again, to help you out, it's at page 21 44 of your notes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Seventeen (17) hours total, yes, sir.


1 I was at the end of the shift. 2 Q: Do I take it from your notation of it 3 being seventeen (17) hours that that was a long day for 4 you? 5 Something out of the ordinary? 6 A: I don't know what it was at the time, 7 sir. It's -- when I'm on ERT shifts, sometimes they're 8 ten (10) sometimes they're eight (8) depending on the 9 assignment. Sometimes I make notations as to when the 10 shift actually started and ended. 11 It's just a -- I have to report at the end 12 of my day what my shift was on an activity sheet. It 13 just keeps everything kind of straight for me as to how 14 many hours I worked that week. 15 Q: I appreciate that, but I will note 16 that nowhere in your previous many, many pages of notes 17 do you have how many hours that you actually worked on 18 that. 19 I just -- and my question to you is 20 whether or not this was put in for any particular purpose 21 or simply to -- 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: -- recall that that's how many hours 24 you worked. 25 A: No purpose, just to tell me it was


1 seventeen (17) hours. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now, Ms. Esmonde, just before me 6 here, referred you to part of your Tab 23, I believe, 7 your Affidavit P-1556. 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Tab 23, if you're looking for it. 13 About eight (8) pages in, just to your reference to 14 discussions with other officers. 15 Do you remember that line of questioning? 16 A: Whether or not I had discussions with 17 officers? 18 Q: Just regarding your notation that you 19 tried to exclude any information -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- from others. 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: You'd agree with me that the reason 24 why you put that in there is because talking about the 25 incident with others can give you a lot more detail to it


1 that you, on your own, wouldn't remember, correct? 2 A: Not so much as detail as -- as other 3 information I didn't have at the time. 4 Q: Right. Information that's not 5 particular to your memory; it could be others providing 6 you with information? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Right. And you're -- you've 9 investigated a number of crimes, correct? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And one of the key parts of 12 investigating is to see who people have talked to and 13 what they've said to other people, correct? 14 A: Actually, it's to try to remove that 15 aspect of it. 16 Q: Right. That's the benefit of putting 17 them in isolation or getting an interview very quickly. 18 You're able to exclude that aspect that can affect their 19 recollection, right? 20 A: That is true. 21 Q: All right. And that's why you put it 22 in here was you were trying to say, this is what I 23 remember as opposed to what people have told me along the 24 way, correct? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: All right. In your discussions with 2 any of the people, either that you relate to here or 3 otherwise within your team, did anybody tell you that 4 they hit Cecil Bernard George in the course of this 5 event? 6 A: People I had discussions with were -- 7 that were on my team about this I don't believe were 8 involved in the CMU. To the best of my knowledge, sir, 9 there were two (2) members, Bill Bittner and I believe 10 Ken Aitchison who were on the CMU, I may have talked to 11 them. 12 Most of the time I was talking with Mark 13 Wells or people that I office with or have worked with on 14 occurrences on neighbouring detachments. Woodstock isn't 15 a neighbouring detachment of mine. I don't normally talk 16 to those officers unless it's at an ERT call. I don't 17 recall having any discussions about who hit Cecil Bernard 18 George. 19 Q: You talked to a number of people 20 about this, right, within your team? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: All right. You saw somebody hit him 23 at least twice with a baton, correct? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: You never asked anybody on your team


1 who actually hit him? 2 A: No, sir. 3 Q: And nobody offered up to you, Hey, 4 I'm the person who actually hit him twice with my baton? 5 A: No, sir. 6 Q: If I can take you lastly to your 7 evidence regarding the car, and again I want to know what 8 you know as opposed to what you've heard or what others 9 have told you because in listening to you this morning, 10 and this afternoon Ms. Esmonde cross-examined you, I have 11 the impression and you can correct me if I'm wrong that 12 your car was about the distance that we are currently 13 apart, 15/20 feet apart, correct? 14 A: Without being exact in that area, 15 yes, sir. 16 Q: Okay. So you're about 15 to 20 feet 17 from the car when it stopped in the middle of the road, 18 correct? 19 A: It actually made a -- it turned to my 20 left or its right so it was angled across the westbound 21 lane. 22 Q: Your vehicle is in the way of the car 23 when it's coming out along the road and it turns 15 to 20 24 feet in front of you into a number of officers on the 25 side of the road, correct?


1 A: Yes, sir, that's correct. 2 Q: And then the vehicle is coming 3 towards your vehicle in the road. Are there any officers 4 directly in front of you or a little bit to the right or 5 a little bit to the left that are facing towards the 6 vehicle coming out of the Park? 7 A: I can tell you there was officers on 8 the roadway. I can't tell you where they were facing; if 9 they were facing the Parkway or if they were running to 10 my left or to my right. There was officers that were 11 running across the road. I don't have a recollection, 12 sir, if there was anybody standing there looking the same 13 direction that was looking. I don't know that. 14 Q: I appreciate that there's a lot of 15 officers moving about -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- at that point in time. What I 18 want to know from you is in your line of sight towards 19 the car that's coming directly at you with its lights 20 on -- 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: -- are there any police officers 23 standing between your vehicle and the car coming out 24 towards you when it turns in front of you and drives into 25 the officers in the ditch?


1 A: I don't believe so, but I know there 2 was -- you're referring to -- make sure -- make sure I 3 answer this properly. 4 Q: I want to know what you know. 5 A: I -- I don't -- I don't recall seeing 6 an officer standing on the roadway looking at the car, I 7 recall seeing officers running on the roadway as the car 8 was coming towards me. 9 I recall seeing the -- the headlights 10 coming at me when the car made a right-hand turn and then 11 it stopped in front of Constable Marissen's van. 12 Q: Okay. Leave aside any officers that 13 are running about. Did you see any officers either 14 directly ahead of you or to the left or right of your 15 line of vision standing in the middle of the road as the 16 car came at you and turned right into the ditch? 17 A: I don't have a recollection of seeing 18 that, sir, no. 19 Q: Okay. Because we've heard from Staff 20 Sergeant Wade Lacroix who said that he was standing in 21 the middle of the roadway 15 to 20 feet from the car when 22 it turned to the right in front of him and went into the 23 ditch and hit a number of officers, okay? 24 We've also heard from Officer Kevin York 25 who testified as well that he was 15 to 20 feet in front


1 of the car standing in the roadway when it turned to its 2 right into a number of officers in the ditch. 3 Does that assist you in any way in 4 identifying any officers that were standing in front of 5 the car as it came down the roadway? 6 A: As I said, sir, I was looking at the 7 car coming at me, its lights were on. I know there was 8 officers running in front, I didn't see anybody standing 9 there. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I was looking at the car. 12 Q: All right. We've also heard from -- 13 A: There may -- 14 Q: Do -- do you have more? 15 A: I say there may very well have been, 16 if -- if you say there was, I don't recall seeing it. I 17 don't recall seeing somebody in a CMU uniform standing 18 there. 19 Q: I'm just telling you what we've heard 20 from other officers and we're trying to determine -- 21 A: I -- I didn't see him. 22 Q: -- who's standing in the middle of 23 the road, if anybody. 24 A: I didn't see him, sir. 25 Q: All right. We've also heard from


1 Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix that as soon as the car 2 backed up from hitting the officers, he ran forward and 3 was standing overtop of the driver's side discharging his 4 weapon. 5 Did you see that occur? 6 A: I -- I couldn't identify Wade Lacroix 7 in front of me. I did see muzzle flashes in line with 8 the driver's door and myself. I don't know whose those 9 muzzle flashes were or if it was -- if you say it was 10 Wade Lacroix, I don't know, sir. 11 Q: All right -- 12 A: I can't say that. 13 Q: We've also heard from -- 14 A: I don't know. 15 Q: -- Officer Kevin York that he 16 discharged his firearm, again at the driver's side 17 window. 18 You can't help us as to whether or not you 19 saw that gun discharged by Officer York? 20 A: I never saw a weapon during that 21 evening, sir, being discharged. I saw muzzle flashes 22 amongst the officers that were in front. I couldn't have 23 identified Constable York unless he was standing next to 24 me with his face -- his face shield up. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Those are all my questions, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 Thank you, Officer. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 7 Mr. Scullion. 8 I think this would be a good time to take 9 an afternoon break. Do you have a different estimate or 10 the same estimate? 11 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Same. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Same 13 estimate. And you too? 14 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: The same also. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 So we'll just take an afternoon break now. We'll come 17 back and finish. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 3:28 p.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 3:45 p.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed, please be seated.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 2 Johnson...? 3 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Good afternoon, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 afternoon. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 9 Q: My name is Colleen Johnson, I'm 10 representing the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point 11 today as well as the Chiefs of Ontario. 12 Sir, I'm going to work hard at not being 13 repetitive with regards to prior questions asked by My 14 Friends. If I could just take you back to when you're in 15 the prisoner van and you initially see an individual on 16 the ground. 17 Did you see that person prior to him being 18 on the ground? 19 A: I believe it's the same person I saw 20 breaking through the front contact squad, coming into the 21 CMU. 22 Q: Okay. And what did you see happen 23 there? 24 A: I saw him fighting with officers in 25 the contact squad and he got by them.


1 Q: Now, the questions that I'm going to 2 be asking you will -- will center just around that 3 terminology, fighting. 4 Can you tell me specifically what you saw 5 the individual do? 6 A: My recollection would be is that he 7 pushed off or he pushed past the persons at the contact 8 line. 9 Q: Okay. Now -- 10 A: My -- my observation of the guy is as 11 he's coming into the CMU. 12 Q: Okay. And would you agree that the 13 CMU is moving at this time as well? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: Forward, correct? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Okay. And then you see the 18 individual on the ground, surrounded by officers; is that 19 correct? 20 A: See him on the ground, yes. 21 Q: Okay. And you indicated that you saw 22 -- when Ms. Esmonde was asking you questions, you 23 indicated that the arrest squad then moved up and joined 24 them, being the CMU around him, or the officers around 25 him.


1 So he's surrounded by a number of 2 officers; is that correct? 3 A: Once the arrest team arrives, yes. 4 Q: Prior to that, he was surrounded by 5 officers as well, correct? 6 A: I wouldn't have said he was 7 surrounded, no. 8 Q: Okay. He had -- 9 A: I could -- 10 Q: -- office -- 11 A: I could -- I could clearly see him. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: There was officers around him -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- but he wasn't -- I didn't 16 interpret that as being surrounded. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: The arrest officers -- 19 Q: That's fair. 20 A: -- got there. They basically had him 21 surrounded at that point, I would say. 22 Q: All right. So the arrest officers 23 joined the other officers there and then he was 24 surrounded? 25 A: I believe so.


1 Q: Okay. Now, you indicated that he was 2 fighting with them, he was fighting with the officers 3 that were around him, correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And at all times this is from a prone 6 position, with him being on the ground, correct? 7 A: Laying on his back. 8 Q: Okay. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Not much of a fair fight, would you 13 agree? 14 A: I don't understand the question. 15 Q: Sir, I'm going to ask you: If he's 16 laying on the ground, how much damage could he really 17 have done? 18 A: Ma'am, I've been kicked in the shins 19 before by somebody on the ground; it hurts, it does a lot 20 of damage. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: That's up to the individual's 23 capacity and his capabilities, I guess. 24 Q: He's on the ground with numerous 25 officers around him. You see no weapon at that time; is


1 that correct? 2 A: I didn't see a weapon, no. 3 Q: Okay. And they have batons, at 4 least; is that correct? 5 A: I believe they do, yes. 6 Q: In fact, you see a baton coming down 7 twice, not connecting, but you see the baton coming down 8 twice? 9 A: Yes, I do. 10 Q: So he's been hit at least twice. 11 Would you agree that -- would you agree that there is 12 really not much of a fight there? 13 A: Actually, it was -- it was a big 14 fight. That was... 15 Q: Now, I'm focussing just on this one 16 incident. 17 A: Yes, I am. 18 Q: Okay. Would you agree that it's 19 pretty uneven in terms of the violence that's occurring 20 in that situation? 21 A: I wouldn't agree with that, no, with 22 what you're saying. I don't agree with that. 23 I think the officers were using as much 24 force as they needed to, to get him under control. 25 Q: And what does that mean, sir, "to get


1 him under control?" 2 A: To get a hold of him, to be able to 3 restrain him. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Was he going any place? 8 A: No, he was fighting the officers. 9 Q: He was laying on the ground, right? 10 A: He was on his back, I believe, yes. 11 Q: He was not getting up, right? 12 A: I don't know -- I saw him fighting on 13 the ground. 14 Q: But he's down. 15 A: On his back, yes. 16 Q: Correct? If I were to indicate to 17 you that a doctor later assessed him as having twenty- 18 eight (28) injuries consistent with blunt force trauma, 19 would you stand by your testimony today that everything 20 you saw was justified? 21 A: Yes, I would. 22 Q: And that the force exerted on him was 23 not excessive? 24 A: Yes, I would. 25 Q: Twenty-eight (28) blunt force trauma


1 injuries. Do you really think that that was necessary to 2 get him under control? 3 A: What I saw was a man fighting with 4 officers; officers trying to get him under arrest. If he 5 received injuries during that, it wouldn't surprise me. 6 I've never counted blunt force injuries that you're 7 referring to on people in fights, but I've seen people 8 that have been through some really good fights. I'm not 9 sure how you count that up. 10 Q: And when you refer to people in -- in 11 fights, would you agree that normally Canadians, 12 generally, when you're talking about a fight, think of 13 two (2) people going at it or a number of people on both 14 sides going at it, as opposed to a number of people on 15 one (1). 16 A: I've seen all different combinations 17 of fights, ma'am, from one (1) on one (1) to three (3) on 18 five (5); just about every combination you can imagine, I 19 guess. 20 Q: And if you saw people who were not 21 officers and it -- it was three (3) on one (1), would you 22 refer to that as a fight? 23 A: As a fight? Yes. 24 Q: If you saw five (5) on one (1), not 25 involving any officers, would that be a fight?


1 A: Yes, I'd determine a fight as two (2) 2 parties, erroneous of the numbers who are fighting 3 against each other. 4 Q: Okay. Would you agree that as the 5 numbers get larger it comes out of the realm of fight and 6 turns into something else? 7 A: If the parties are still actively 8 fighting, it's a fight. If the one (1) party isn't 9 fighting then it becomes something else, yes. 10 Q: And would you agree that the activity 11 that you saw the individual on the ground engaging in, 12 could also be described as resistance? 13 A: I'd say assaultive. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Resistant? Yeah. I don't know if he 16 was trying to get away but he was fighting them, kicking 17 them. 18 Q: And would you agree the actions of 19 the officers were also assaultive? 20 A: They were using force on him, if that 21 in itself constitutes an assault. 22 Q: Now, you've been an officer for a 23 number of years; is that correct? 24 A: Yes, ma'am. 25 Q: If you're assessing somebody at a


1 roadside, say if you've stopped an individual in a car 2 and you're assessing them for drinking while driving, 3 there are a number of factors that you take into 4 consideration in that assessment; is that correct? 5 A: Yes, there is. 6 Q: And certainly the smell of alcohol 7 would probably be one (1) of your first clues as to an 8 individual being intoxicated; would you agree? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And in this situation you did not 11 have the odour of alcohol; is that correct? 12 A: That is correct. 13 Q: Okay. And some of the other criteria 14 you might use to assess someone in being intoxicated 15 might be slurred speech; would you agree? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And did this individual speak 18 in any way to you? 19 A: No, he did not. 20 Q: Okay. And you might also use 21 something such as blood shot eyes; would you agree? 22 A: That's one (1) of the indicators for 23 intoxication, yes. 24 Q: Now, you've indicated that it was 25 dark; is that correct?


1 A: Yes, it was. 2 Q: Did you have an opportunity to assess 3 whether Mr. George had bloodshot eyes or not? 4 A: I don't recall. I don't believe not. 5 Q: Generally speaking, those are three 6 (3) things that you would put in your notebook; is that 7 correct? 8 A: Yes, fair. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: During that type of an investigation. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: When you're assessing somebody as 14 being intoxicated? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Because it's a subjective assessment; 17 is that correct? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: Now, you indicated that he was 20 heavily intoxicated, Cecil Bernard George. 21 A: I believe I indicated the impression 22 I had was that he was heavily intoxicated, yes. 23 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 24 that you had no criteria to base that on. 25 A: His lack of verbal response, but able


1 to follow verbal directions, the mannerism in which he 2 conducted himself, the way that he hung his head when he 3 was sitting at the back of the van, were all conducive to 4 the appearance of somebody who was heavily intoxicated. 5 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 6 that if you witnessed a non-Native individual being hit 7 with sticks by numerous Native individuals and then 8 assess that non-Native person, that you would not have 9 come to the same conclusion. 10 A: If I had seen the same -- 11 Q: Same situation. 12 A: -- same situation that I had on that 13 night? 14 Q: Without police officers and without 15 the individual being hurt, being a Native person, that 16 the -- the assessment on your part would have been quite 17 different? 18 A: No, ma'am, it would have been the 19 same. I saw no outward trauma on this man, other than 20 his fat lip; there was a bit of blood there; he had an 21 abrasion above his eye; they were conducive to what I 22 said earlier, someone who may have been -- 23 Q: You saw him being assaulted by 24 numerous individuals, officers or not. You saw an 25 individual on the ground who was being assaulted.


1 A: I saw an individual who was fighting 2 with police officers and the officers taking -- trying to 3 get control of him. 4 Q: But certainly you saw at least two 5 (2) episodes of trauma being administered to him? 6 A: I saw an officer make a motion of 7 taking a swing with an ASP baton in close quarters with 8 the man on the ground. I don't know if he was hit or 9 not. 10 Q: That's fair. I think you can assess 11 whether -- you can make that judgment; would you agree? 12 A: As to whether he was hit or not? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: No, I can't. I wasn't close enough 15 to see if he was hit or not. That many officers there, I 16 think some of the other officers might have taken a hit 17 as well. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now, sir, did you ever hit him in any 22 way? 23 A: No, ma'am. 24 Q: Did you ever apply any trauma to him 25 in any way?


1 A: No, ma'am. 2 Q: So there's no reason for you to cover 3 anything up in that regard, is that correct; with regards 4 to protecting yourself? 5 A: Not protecting anybody. 6 Q: I'm sorry, I didn't hear. 7 A: I'm not protecting anybody, not 8 myself or anyone else. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: At paragraph -- or, I'm sorry, Tab 13 20, sir, and I -- 14 A: Yes, ma'am. 15 Q: -- believe if you go four (4) pages 16 in there's a series of questions and answers that begin 17 there. 18 A: Yes, ma'am. 19 Q: And then if you go to the last page 20 of questions and answers. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You indicate: 23 "My impression was he was extremely 24 intoxicated and we assisted him, but we 25 didn't have to carry him. We were


1 guiding him and he was able to carry 2 some of his own weight." 3 Is it common for intoxicated people to not 4 be able to put their full weight in walking? 5 A: Depends on the level of being 6 intoxicated. 7 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 8 that not being able to carry his entire weight is not 9 consistent with intoxication, it's consistent with severe 10 injury. 11 A: No, ma'am, I don't agree with that. 12 Q: You don't say that he was staggering, 13 do you? 14 A: Except for seeing him in the parking 15 lot I didn't see him walking. He literally stepped off 16 the van, onto the ground, and then he was placed on the 17 gurney. 18 Q: So that you didn't view him walking 19 at all -- 20 A: No, I didn't. 21 Q: -- except with assistance? 22 A: Basically, we guided him off the step 23 of the van -- 24 Q: If you can just keep your voice up, 25 I'm sorry --


1 A: I'm sorry. 2 Q: -- I have a hard time hearing. 3 A: When he came off the back step of the 4 van, he turned around and then was seated on the gurney. 5 So I didn't see him walk any distance at that point, no. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: If this was a non-aboriginal person, 10 sir, would you have come to the same conclusion? 11 A: Yes, ma'am. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 13 didn't hear the question. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 16 Q: If this was a non-Aboriginal person, 17 sir, would you have come to the same conclusion that he 18 was intoxicated? 19 A: Yes, ma'am. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 24 asked that question already, Ms. Johnson. 25 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I'm finished with


1 that area. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 7 Q: Sir, you made some statements in your 8 notebook and Ms. Esmonde asked you about them. With 9 regards to the wake, that it would last as long as the 10 alcohol lasted. 11 And you indicated that those came from a 12 briefing; is that correct? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: That's your recollection? 15 A: That's my recollection. 16 Q: Do you recall -- 17 Q: That's what -- that's -- perhaps I 18 should qualify that. That's what I have in my notes. I 19 don't have a recollection of that briefing or being told 20 that. That's what I have in my notebook, that -- 21 Q: Do you recall -- 22 A: -- at the time. 23 Q: -- anybody objecting to that 24 statement at the briefing? 25 A: I don't recall that.


1 Q: Do you recall there being any concern 2 with regards to the characterization of Native people 3 attending a service for an individual who has lost his 4 life, do you recall there being an objection to the 5 characterization of those people as being drunks? 6 A: I don't think that was even implied, 7 that they were drunks. 8 Q: Well -- 9 A: It was implied that the information 10 was is that the LCBO and the beer stores had sold out, 11 and that there was a large gathering of people, and that 12 there was going to be a wake after the service, with a 13 large gathering of people there. 14 Q: And were you told who might be in 15 attendance with regards to visiting chiefs? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Were you aware that there were 18 national chiefs and things like that coming in? 19 A: I don't believe so. 20 Q: Elders from around? 21 A: I expected that there would be a 22 large gathering there. I didn't know who it was going to 23 be made up of. 24 Q: And are you telling me that the 25 statement, "the wake will last as long as the alcohol


1 does," does not depict a stereotype of Native people as 2 being drunks? 3 A: No, ma'am, it doesn't. 4 Q: Well, what does it depict? 5 A: It depicts that afterwards they're 6 going to be drinking at a gathering of people, for 7 however long. 8 Q: Were you advised that there was some 9 spiritual content to the gathering? 10 A: It was a funeral, ma'am. I -- I took 11 that there would be some spiritual context to it. 12 Q: Were you advised that there was a 13 period of mourning, a ten (10) day period, and that's why 14 SIU didn't get to come in until the 18th? 15 A: I don't know if I was advised of that 16 or not. I -- 17 Q: Were you in any way -- 18 A: -- don't recall. 19 Q: -- advised of any of the traditions 20 that would be occurring by the Native people at that 21 time? 22 A: I don't recall if I was or not. 23 Q: Other than that there would be 24 alcohol served and it would go until it ended? 25 A: That the wake --


1 Q: Or until it ran out? 2 A: I have a notation of that, yes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And then even today you're not sure, 7 with regards to the selling of T-shirts, how that is 8 offensive; is that correct? 9 A: The only person I have spoken to who 10 indicates that the broken arrow is offensive, was an 11 officer at the Forest Detachment named Luke George, who 12 advised that it would be interpreted as a broken spirit. 13 Q: And I commend you for speaking to Mr. 14 Geor -- or to Constable George, because you have 15 resources at hand, being Native officers. 16 But culture aside, would you agree that 17 it's offensive to sell memorabilia where another human 18 being has lost their life? 19 A: When I bought the shirt, I didn't 20 take it that this was an incident shirt. It was a team 21 shirt for Project Maple, which I bought in October. I 22 looked at it; I didn't take offense to it then. I didn't 23 know it was offensive, until just recently. 24 Q: Sir -- 25 A: Would I find it offensive if I


1 thought somebody was selling a shirt commemorating 2 somebody's death, that that unit had taken part in? 3 Yeah, I would. I wouldn't buy it. 4 Did I think that the shirt that was up 5 here commemorated that? No, I didn't. 6 Q: It commemorated Ipperwash, correct? 7 The incident -- 8 A: Project Maple. 9 Q: -- at Ipperwash. 10 A: Project Maple. 11 Q: And someone lost their life in that 12 incident; is that correct? 13 A: Ma'am, I didn't know Project Maple 14 was the Ipperwash incident until afterwards. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: I have nothing further. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 20 Ms. Johnson. 21 Mr. Mathai...? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Good afternoon, Mr.


1 Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 afternoon. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 6 Q: Good afternoon, Constable LeBlanc. 7 A: Sir. 8 Q: My name is Sunil Mathai, I'm one (1) 9 of the lawyers who represent Aboriginal Legal Services of 10 Toronto. I just have a few questions to ask you today. 11 Most of the areas that I wanted to cover have been 12 covered by My Friends, so I'm hoping that this won't take 13 too much of your time. 14 I want to start with your tour of duty at 15 Ipperwash Park on August 23rd to the 26th. If I 16 understand your evidence that you've given today and in 17 notes that I've read so far, your objective was to 18 protect the campers at Ipperwash Park? 19 A: It was to maintain the peace. 20 Q: Maintain the peace? 21 A: It -- it wasn't a -- there was 22 incidents of people from the Ipperwash Park also walking 23 into the Army Camp, which they're not allowed to do. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: So we were --


1 Q: If you turn to Tab 2, I believe, of 2 you your notes? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: It's page 9, Exhibit P-1550, Tab 4. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Page 9? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And you'll see there, two-thirds of 12 the way down: 13 "Objective is to protect campers at 14 Ipperwash Provincial Park?" 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I take it from the rest of that 17 notation it was to protect the campers from First Nation 18 people? 19 A: Or themselves. As I stated just now, 20 there were incidents where people who were camping in the 21 Park had gone on to the property or the beachfront area 22 of the Army Camp. That area was cordoned off; I believe 23 there was concrete pillars in place. They weren't 24 supposed to go in there. 25 Q: Why weren't they supposed to go in


1 there? 2 A: It's private property. 3 Q: Now, you say that it was to protect 4 them from themselves and from any incidents with First 5 Nations people, correct? 6 A: It was to maintain the peace, yes. 7 Q: Maintain the peace? Okay. And part 8 of that -- part of that -- your tour of duty there was to 9 patrol the area, and I think you said with -- by car or 10 by foot? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Okay. And part of you car patrol 13 included doing stops of vehicles? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Okay. Were they random stops of 16 vehicles? 17 A: Some of them were, yes. 18 Q: Okay. And those included random 19 stops of First Nation people's vehicles, correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, what was the purpose of those 22 random stops? 23 A: Some of the stops were to determine 24 the proper people, the people driver were licenced, the 25 vehicle was insured as well as properly plated. Other


1 ones were conducted for gathering intelligence 2 information if we saw a vehicle leaving the Army Camp. 3 Q: So if I understand your evidence 4 correctly, it's to do two (2) things really, one (1) is 5 to -- just a general Highway Traffic Act stop to check 6 for insurance, for license, license plates, things of 7 that nature, and then also to gather intelligence? 8 A: If it was available, yes. 9 Q: What do you mean by if it was 10 available? 11 A: If I asked the driver to identify 12 himself under the provisions of the Highway Traffic Act 13 he has to. The occupants in the vehicle don't, unless 14 they're committing a violation. So if somebody had said, 15 No, I don't want to identify myself, have a good day. 16 Q: Sorry. So when asked a question of, 17 Can I have your driver's licence under the Highway 18 Traffic Act, they have to give you -- 19 A: The driver -- 20 Q: -- their identification? 21 A: The driver does. 22 Q: And then you can use that for the 23 purposes of intelligence? 24 A: I can use that in order to determine 25 if they're properly licenced.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: Identifying him as the driver in the 3 vehicle is the intelligence. That's -- 4 Q: And -- and how does that -- 5 A: And -- 6 Q: -- and how does that provide any 7 intelligence? 8 A: That's up to the people who receive 9 it. I don't know if it's -- if it's worthwhile 10 information or not. 11 Q: Okay. But then it's fair to say that 12 one (1) of the purposes of your stops was to gather 13 intelligence? 14 A: We were told if we saw vehicles going 15 out of the Park and we had occasion to stop them to 16 gather who was in the vehicle; that's correct. 17 Q: So the Highway Traffic Act stop was a 18 pretext, really, to gathering intelligence, in some 19 cases? 20 A: You say it's a pretext. I'm not sure 21 if I fully comprehend when -- if you're saying it was a 22 reason to stop them? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: No, the Highway Traffic Act stop was 25 to see if they were licenced. Some of the vehicles that


1 I stopped on -- on the dates that you're referring to 2 didn't appear fit. 3 Q: Just so we're clear though, when I 4 originally asked you what the purpose of -- of the stops 5 were you said one was the Highway Traffic Act and the 6 second would be for collecting intelligence; correct? 7 A: The reason was for the Highway 8 Traffic Act stop for checking proper licences, ownership 9 and insurance. If it was a vehicle that came out of the 10 Army Camp we were asked to gather information as to who 11 the person in the vehicle was. 12 Q: You've been a police officer I 13 understand for close to nineteen (19) years? 14 A: Just over nineteen (19) years, yes. 15 Q: And a lot of that included general 16 duties like performing Highway Traffic Act stops? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And so in that time you must have 19 performed, what, hundreds of Highway Traffic Act stops? 20 A: Roughly. 21 Q: Okay. And you must have received 22 training, I -- I imagine, with respect to when you can do 23 a stop, what is a proper stop, when a stop becomes an 24 improper stop, things of that nature? 25 A: I'm aware of my authorities under the


1 Highway Traffic Act for conducting vehicle stops, yes. 2 Q: Okay. So you know that under the 3 Highway Traffic Act you can randomly stop someone in 4 order to investigate for whether they have insurance or 5 they have a proper driver's licence, all with respect to 6 safety on the road; correct? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And you also understand that you 9 can't use a random traffic stop as a pretext for doing 10 some other type of investigation or intelligence 11 gathering; correct? 12 A: Only if it develops after the stop. 13 If it turns out it's an impaired driver, I still have a 14 lawful stop, I can further my investigation. If I -- 15 Q: And -- 16 A: -- if I stop somebody -- I'm sorry. 17 Q: No. Sorry. Go ahead. 18 A: I didn't want to cut you off. 19 Q: No, no. Sorry. Go ahead. 20 A: If I stop somebody and they tell me 21 that they're on their way to the Army Camp, then I'll 22 submit that information that they're on their way to the 23 Army Camp. 24 Q: Okay. And that's fair. But with 25 respect to your example on the intoxicated driver, the


1 impaired driver, that's when you have reasonable and 2 probable grounds to believe that there's a crime 3 occurring, so there's a further investigation; correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. But in cases where you don't 6 have any reasonable probable grounds to believe a further 7 criminal investigation is necessary, then you're quite 8 limited in your scope of what you can do under the 9 Highway Traffic Act? 10 A: Very much. 11 Q: In fact, all you really can do is ask 12 them with respect to their licence, their insurance, 13 whether their licence plates have properly been renewed, 14 things of that nature; correct? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Okay. Now, you understand then as 17 well, and I imagine this is part of your training, that 18 if you stop a car based on the -- on race or you stop a 19 person because of their race, then that would be using 20 this as an improper purpose; correct? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Now, I understand on August 24th, 23 1995, you stopped a -- one second. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: You stopped Mr. Mark Bressette? If 2 you want help, I think if you turn to Tab -- 3 A: Yeah. I'm just -- I have a shift 4 that overlaps that period. If you have a page number. 5 Q: Yeah. I believe it's Tab 5, it's P- 6 1551, it's the Emergency Response Team Operational Report 7 for the -- or, sorry, August 24th. It's for the date of 8 August 24th, between 15:00 hours to 23:00 hours. 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Are you there? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And there you say that you -- 13 vehicle check leaving CFB Ipperwash driven by Mark 14 Bressette it would seem? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: So you stopped that vehicle? 17 A: Yes, sir, I did. 18 Q: And I imagine you have there his 19 address and his date of birth. It also looks like you 20 have the type of vehicle, the licence plates, that you 21 asked him this type of information? 22 A: Actually, the licence plate I would 23 have took from the car. 24 Q: Sure. 25 A: The documentation in relation to the


1 vehicle I believe he was unable to provide. He stated 2 that his driver's licence had gone through the wash and 3 he had lost it. He couldn't provide the ownership or the 4 insurance as it was his brother's vehicle. 5 And looking back on it, I believe the 6 licence plate was expired. 7 Q: So you asked him, if I understand 8 your evidence correctly, you asked him for his licence 9 plate and he -- sorry, his licence? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And he responded that it was in the 12 washer, so he -- or it went through the washer, so he 13 couldn't give it to you? 14 A: It was lost. 15 Q: It was lost. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: You asked him for the insurance to 18 the car and he told you that he couldn't give it to you? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Okay. And I -- I believe you also 21 asked him for his ownership? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what was the response to that? 24 A: Didn't have it. 25 Q: Now, all these questions that you


1 asked, they properly relate to the Highway Traffic Act 2 investigation, right? 3 You're stopping and you're asking 4 questions with respect to the car and that it's properly 5 regulated and licensed, correct? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: The question I have, then, is that 8 you go on to take the information of the passenger. 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And I'm wondering how that relates in 11 any way to the Highway Traffic Act stop? 12 A: It was in relation that they were in 13 the vehicle, sir. They were under no obligation to 14 identify themselves at that time. They hadn't committed 15 any offence. They didn't have to identify themselves if 16 they didn't want to. 17 Q: But you asked them to? 18 A: Yes, I did. 19 Q: As you were investigating? 20 A: I was gathering the information. 21 Q: Gathering information? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: Not related to the Highway Traffic 24 Act. 25 A: Not to an offence under the Highway


1 Traffic Act, no. 2 Q: But gathering intelligence. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Who's coming in and out of the Park? 5 A: Basically. 6 Q: And you used the Highway Traffic Act 7 stop to gather this information? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: You didn't issue Mr. Bressette a 10 ticket, did you? 11 A: No, I actually provided him with 12 directions on applying for a new licence to replace the 13 one that he had lost. 14 I also asked him if he could notify his 15 brother in order to ensure that the ownership and 16 insurance were always with the car, or at least a 17 photocopy of the ownership and I also reminded him that 18 he had to renew the licence plate, because it was 19 expired. 20 Q: And I notice, returning to that Tab 21 5, P-1551, that you stopped another First Nation 22 individual and I won't mention the name and I ask that 23 you not mention the name as well, because I believe it's 24 going to be redacted from the Exhibit. 25 But I see there at 17:49 that you stopped


1 another First Nation person; is that correct? 2 A: Yes, sir, it is. 3 Q: Do you recall why you stopped that 4 person? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: It was a vehicle stop. I'm -- I 9 recall the vehicle being in poor condition, sir. It was 10 a blue Taurus. 11 I guess my experience had been if the 12 vehicles aren't maintained or if they're in poor repair, 13 then it makes it difficult to maintain insurance, which 14 is quite costly on the vehicles. 15 Q: Looking at P-1551, are those the only 16 two (2) people you stopped that day? 17 A: According to the Emergency Response 18 Team operational report, sir? Is that what you're 19 referring to? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: According to that, those are the two 22 (2) that are in the report, but they're not -- I'd have 23 to check with my notebook. 24 Q: Okay. Let's look at your notes for 25 August 24th. I believe that's at your Tab 4, P-1550. I


1 think it begins at page 12 of your notes? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And ends at page 15. Is there any 4 notations there of any other stops? 5 A: In relation to Highway Traffic Act 6 stops? 7 Q: Yes. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: No, there is not, not on the 24th. 12 Q: So from the notes that you have and 13 also from the report you filled out in P-1553, or your 14 partner, Mr. Grant filled out, one of the two (2), the 15 only people you stopped were First Nation people, 16 correct? 17 A: Were the two (2) vehicles. 18 Q: And they were both First Nations 19 people, correct? 20 A: Apparently, yes. 21 Q: And no others, right? 22 A: Not that I have noted here, sir. 23 Q: Let's move on to another area. 24 Actually, before I do that, it's fair to say then that 25 the only reason you were pulling over these people was to


1 gather intelligence on First Nations people that were in 2 CFB Ipperwash, correct? 3 A: No, sir, that's not correct. 4 Q: I just want to move on to another 5 area. You've testified, and your testimony today is on 6 September 11th, 1995, there were comments made at a 7 briefing with respect to the wake of Mr. George and how 8 it would last as long as how much alcohol was there, 9 correct? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: If I can ask you to turn to -- I 12 believe it's your Tab 8 of P-1554. It's at page 83 of 13 those notes. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's Tab 8. 18 What page is that? 19 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 83. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 21 if my numbers go up that high. 22 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Sorry, I'm using the 23 index that we had on Friday. I think it's been changed. 24 Is it Tab 7, possibly? 25 MR. DONALD WORME: No, it is Tab 8.


1 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: It is Tab 8? It's page 2 83, Mr. Commissioner. It says at the top, 11 September 3 1995. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have the 5 11th of September on page 64. 6 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: I have -- oh -- oh, 7 you -- sorry, Mr. Commissioner, it's 63. My copy looked 8 like 83 but it's 63. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: 63? 10 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 63. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Yes. 12 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Sorry, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I've got it. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 17 Q: See there at 07:00 hours? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Just so I get it correct can you read 20 it to me? 21 A: "07:00 hours CP over to attend brief. 22 [I believe it's] Superintendent 23 Baranski, Inspector Linton. QT over 24 night [being quiet over night]." 25 Q: Okay. That's fine. That's -- that's


1 all I need. My -- my one (1) question is, you've noted 2 these two (2) individuals being present, that being 3 Inspector Linton and -- and Superintendent Baranski? 4 A: Or Baronowski (phonetic). 5 Q: Baronowski. My apologies. 6 A: I'm not sure how to pronounce his 7 name. 8 Q: Neither am I so -- 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: -- I'll go with yours. Is it fair to 11 say that they're the ones who did the briefing? 12 A: I don't know that, sir. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: It would have been the officer in 15 charge or the -- the first officer in charge and the 16 second officer in charge. 17 Q: Okay. And you didn't know anybody 18 else in this -- in this note, right, being at this 19 briefing? 20 A: I'm not even positive that they were 21 at the briefing, sir, they were the officers in charge 22 for that -- that shift, for day shift. 23 Q: Okay. And -- and there would have 24 been other officers at the September 11th meeting? 25 A: Yes, sir.


1 Q: And you didn't note them in that 2 meeting? 3 A: And I didn't...? 4 Q: You did not note the other members 5 that were present at that meeting? 6 A: They weren't the officers in charge 7 of that day shift, no. 8 Q: One (1) last area I'd like to touch 9 upon today and it deals with the SIU investigation into 10 Cecil Bernard George and the injuries he sustained on the 11 night of September 6th? 12 A: Yes, sir? 13 Q: Now, in answering Ms. Esmonde's 14 questions you said that you answered to the best of your 15 ability and you answered the questions that were asked 16 you, correct? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And you also told Ms. Esmonde that 19 your understanding of the SIU investigation was an 20 inquiry into Cecil Bernard George's injuries and how they 21 were sustained? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: Now, it's fair to say that you were 24 never asked whether or not you saw anybody hit Mr. George 25 with a baton, correct?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: If we could turn to that, it's Tab 3 20. I believe it's Tab 20 of your book as well, P-1558? 4 Tab 21 I'm informed by Mr. Worme. Thank you. Tab 21? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: If we turn to the -- I'm sorry. If 7 we turn to the seventh page in. 8 A: Yes, sir? 9 Q: The last question there says: 10 "Is there anything you can think of [I 11 guess it should say] that can assist us 12 in this investigation?" 13 And your answer to that was: 14 "From what I saw the injuries appeared 15 to be trivial." 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And you've told us today that was 18 consistent because you said that there were some 19 inconsistencies in the statement and that's why you 20 didn't sign it but this part was consistent? 21 A: I believe that was what my response 22 was, yes. 23 Q: That was your response? And you 24 thought it was important when investigating the injuries 25 of Mr. George and how he sustained it to note that they


1 were trivial. You thought that assisted in the 2 investigation, correct? 3 A: That was my observation of it. 4 Q: Okay. But the question was, Do you 5 have anything that can assist you in the investigation? 6 Now, and remember you said that this was 7 consistent so I'm asking you, you thought the injuries 8 being trivial assisted in determining who and how Mr. 9 George was injured, correct? 10 A: It was the last question. It was the 11 final statement I had. It was at that point I believe I 12 answered their questions to the best I had. They said is 13 there anything else that I could say that would assist 14 them? 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: The injuries that I saw on him did 17 appear to be trivial or passing. 18 Q: One (1) last question. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: You don't think it would have 21 assisted the investigation to know that a member of the - 22 - as the Arrest Squad hit him with a baton? 23 A: I don't know if he was actually hit 24 by the baton. I saw him in a fight. I described that he 25 was fighting with officers.


1 Q: Sorry. Is -- is your testimony now 2 changing? Because I remember prior to this -- sorry, Mr. 3 Commissioner, but in response to the question I do have a 4 further question. 5 Your earlier testimony was that you saw 6 someone, at least twice, strike Mr. George with a baton, 7 the ASP baton -- 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: -- correct? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: So my question is simply this. 12 Wouldn't that information assist in the investigation 13 into how Mr. George got injured? 14 A: I don't know if it did, sir, or not. 15 Q: Thank you. I have no further 16 questions. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. 19 MR. SUNIL NATHAI: Thank you, Constable. 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roland, 22 do you have any questions? 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: A couple of questions. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you make 25 some estimate of how long you might be?


1 MR. IAN ROLAND: Five (5) minutes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 5 Q: Constable LeBlanc, about the T-shirt 6 that you purchased and you say that you'd worn it for -- 7 for some occasions, did you wear it on duty under your 8 body armour? 9 A: It's probably about the only time I 10 ever wore it, yes. 11 Q: And, as I understand it, as an OPP 12 officer wearing body armour, you're allowed to wear a -- 13 a T-shirt. In fact, everybody does wear a T-shirt under 14 their body armour and it has to be either dark blue or 15 black? 16 A: That is correct. 17 Q: That's regulation, I take it? 18 A: If you're showing a T-shirt it has to 19 be dark blue or black, it can't be white or any other 20 colour. 21 Q: To your recollection, was the logo on 22 this T-shirt ever visible to anybody, either with whom 23 you worked or the public? 24 A: Not to my recollection, sir. When I 25 went to work every day I was wearing an OPP uniform


1 already, I always wear an external body armour carrier, 2 so I don't take the shirt off to put the armour 3 underneath. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: When I leave my home I'm in uniform 6 and when I come back I'm in uniform. 7 Q: All right. Let me take you if I 8 could to some questions Mr. Scullion asked you about the 9 roadway where the car was, where you -- you talk about 10 seeing the car on East Parkway Drive, this is on 11 September the 6th, and you've described how the car was 12 angled towards the lake. 13 You were sitting in your van, facing the 14 car, I think you said 15 to 20 feet away, and you 15 observed some muzzle flashes between you and the car, 16 towards the driver's door, you thought closer to the car. 17 What was the lighting like at that stage? 18 A: In that area there was -- it was 19 poor. It was a dark area. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: It was removed from the intersection. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: It -- it was dark, I guess is the 24 best way I can describe it. 25 Q: And you've described the direction of


1 the car facing -- I guess we described it in a 2 northwesterly direction, angled towards the lake. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Was -- at that stage were the 5 headlights of the car facing you? 6 A: Not when the car stopped, only when 7 it was coming down the roadway. 8 Q: And when it was coming down the 9 roadway, I think you described it as having high beams 10 on? 11 A: I'm not sure if they were high beams 12 or low beams. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But they were bright headlights. 15 Q: They were bright headlight anyway. 16 And did they have any effect on your ability to see after 17 that? 18 A: Very much so. 19 Q: And how was that? 20 A: Just after having the light shining 21 at me, once the vehicle turned, for a moment it was 22 pretty dark while my eyes adjusted. 23 Q: You were asked by Mr. Mathai that -- 24 the last question -- or I think it -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mathai.


1 Mathai. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 4 Q: Mathai -- Mr. Mathai, that you were 5 asked about a highway stop concerning Mark Bressette on 6 August 24th. These are in your notes, at page 13. And 7 you said that you -- that he didn't have a driver's 8 licence, he couldn't produce insurance and he couldn't 9 produce ownership. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Could you have ticketed him for each 12 of those? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And did you exercise your discretion 15 favourably towards him and not ticket him? 16 A: Very much so, sir. 17 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much, Mr. Roland. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: I don't have anything 21 by way of re-exam. I would simply like to extend our 22 thanks to Officer LeBlanc for his attendance and his 23 testimony. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much --


1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Officer, 3 for coming and giving us your testimony. You're finished 4 now. 5 6 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I think 9 what we'll do is we'll take a five (5) minute break and 10 then we'll come and call our next witness. Okay? We'll 11 take a five (5) minute break. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 14 for five (5) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 4:32 p.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 4:38 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed, please be seated. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Afternoon. The 25 Commission --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 2 afternoon. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- calls as its next 4 witness, Christopher Cossitt. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 afternoon. 7 8 CHRIS COSSITT, Sworn 9 10 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: Good afternoon. I understand that 12 you are currently a Constable? 13 A: I am, ma'am. 14 Q: And you have provided a resume 15 outlining your career as a police officer. 16 A: Yes, ma'am. 17 Q: If you would kindly look at Tab 1, 18 Inquiry document number 2005545, and can you identify 19 that document for us? 20 A: Yes, ma'am, that's my resume that I 21 submitted. 22 Q: And does it accurately and fairly set 23 out your career as a police officer? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 A: Yes, ma'am. 2 Q: I'd like to make that the next 3 exhibit, please. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1560, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1560: Document Number 2005545. 7 Resume of Christopher William 8 Cossitt. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: I understand that prior to joining 12 the Ontario Provincial Police you were a member of the 13 Peel Regional Police from 1981 to 1989; is that right? 14 A: That's correct, ma'am. 15 Q: You then joined the OPP in 1989 and 16 were assigned to the Wasaga Beach Detachment from 1989 to 17 1990? 18 A: Yes, ma'am. 19 Q: Thereafter, you were transferred to 20 the Wingham Detachment from 1990 to 1999? 21 A: That's correct, ma'am. 22 Q: And during that time frame you were 23 assigned a six (6) month posting with the Tobermory 24 Detachment, and two (2) three (3) month postings at the 25 Sauble Beach Detachment where you worked in part with the


1 Saugeen First Nation police, from time to time? 2 A: Yes, ma'am. 3 Q: In 1993 you became a member of the 4 Emergency Response Team for a total of eight (8) years? 5 A: Ma'am, it's from '93 to 1999, 6 December '99 was my experience with the Emergency 7 Response Team. 8 Q: All right. And what ERT district 9 were you assigned, or part of, in the timeframe August 10 and September of 1995? 11 A: Mount Forest Team, Number 6 District. 12 Q: I understand you were then 13 transferred to the Walkerton Detachment in 1999? 14 A: That's correct, ma'am. 15 Q: And in January of 2005 you became a 16 Community Service Officer? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: What was your first involvement with 19 an Ipperwash-related policing assignment? 20 A: Can I just refer to my notes, ma'am? 21 Q: Certainly. And you might refer to 22 Tab 2 of the binder, or page 77 of your police notes. 23 It's Inquiry document number 2005597. 24 A: My first involvement, ma'am, was on 25 August 1st of '95.


1 Q: All right. And the document at Tab 2 2 appears to be your notes relating to Ipperwash related 3 policing assignments for the periods from August 1 to 6, 4 August 15 to 19, September 7 to 10, 21, 25 to 30, and 5 October 3rd, 1995. 6 Perhaps you could glance through the 7 photocopy in front of you and -- and advise whether 8 that's accurate? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: That appears to be them all, ma'am. 13 Q: Thank you very much. And have you 14 made any changes, additions, or deletions to these notes 15 since they were originally created? 16 A: No, ma'am. 17 Q: I'd like to make this the next 18 exhibit please? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1561, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1561: Document Number 2005597. 22 Handwritten notebook entries 23 of Chris Cossitt, August 01- 24 06; August 15-19; September 25 07-10; September 21;


1 September 25-30; October 03, 2 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: Perhaps you can take a moment to 6 describe your general note taking practices, please? 7 A: Generally, I try to make my notes 8 soon after the event that I'm trying to record, as soon 9 as I can afterwards. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: And as accurately as I can. 12 Q: And what is the general purpose of 13 creating notes? 14 A: For the purpose of refreshing my 15 memory. 16 Q: Now, you indicated that you were 17 called to the Ipperwash area on August the 1st, 1995. In 18 what capacity were you called? 19 A: I was called there as part of the 20 Mount Forest Emergency Response Team. 21 Q: And what was your general task during 22 your tours of duty in relation to Ipperwash in August of 23 1995? 24 A: Best of my recollection, was for 25 security and for heightened police presence in the area.


1 Q: All right. Did you also conduct 2 vehicle checks? 3 A: Yes, ma'am, we would make vehicle 4 stops. 5 Q: And patrol the area? 6 A: Yes, ma'am. 7 Q: And when you say, "for security," 8 what do you mean? 9 A: For the security of the people in the 10 area. 11 Q: All right. Did your patrol include 12 the Ipperwash Provincial Park in August? 13 A: Yes, ma'am, it did. 14 Q: What were you told of the particular 15 circumstances leading to your assignment as part of the 16 Mount Forest Detachment, or ERT? 17 A: I don't recall. 18 Q: Did you learn anything in August 1995 19 regarding the takeover of the barracks at the Military 20 Base Camp Ipperwash and the circumstances of that? 21 A: I would have been advised of it but I 22 don't recall it at this time, ma'am. 23 Q: You don't recall anything about that? 24 A: No, ma'am. 25 Q: All right. Did you learn anything in


1 August with respect to the possible takeover of the 2 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 3 A: I don't recall that either, ma'am. 4 Q: All right. Do you recall learning 5 anything with respect to the possible motivation for the 6 potential takeover of the Park? 7 A: I just -- I believe it was something 8 with a land dispute. I'm not up on the details of it, 9 but it was dealing with a land claim or dispute that 10 hadn't been sorted out. 11 Q: All right. Did you learn anything 12 about the possible existence of firearms within the Army 13 Camp? 14 A: Personally, I had heard rumours of 15 it. 16 Q: Sorry? 17 A: I heard rumours of it. I don't 18 recall anything or I don't have any personal knowledge of 19 it, but I would have heard rumours. 20 Q: Can you recall what the nature of 21 those rumours were? 22 A: That there was the possibility of 23 guns on the Army Base. 24 Q: Now while you were on patrol in the 25 Ipperwash Provincial Park over the course of August, did


1 you have any significant incidents? 2 A: When I was doing security? What do 3 you recall significant? I had a vehicle stop where I 4 laid a Highway Traffic Act offence. 5 Q: Okay. All right. Well perhaps -- 6 were you required to file ERT operational reports? 7 A: Yes, ma'am. It's part of our duties. 8 Q: And did you, in fact, file them? 9 A: Yes, ma'am. 10 Q: And what was the purpose of an ERT 11 operational report? 12 A: It's to brief our commanders and 13 people in charge of our events that go on. 14 Q: Perhaps you would go to Tab 3, it's 15 Inquiry Document 2000752, Emergency Response Team Number 16 6 District Operational Report, dated August 3rd, 1995. 17 And was that filed either by you or on 18 behalf of yourself? 19 A: Yes, ma'am. 20 Q: And is this a typical type of report 21 that you would file during the course of August? 22 A: Yes, ma'am, it would be. 23 Q: And I'd like to make this the next 24 exhibit, but would the record kindly note that the 25 personal information will be redacted from this document.


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-1562, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1562: Document Number 2000752. 4 Emergency Response Team- 5 Operational Report 6 (Rusk/Cossitt) August 03, 7 1995. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: Similarly, if you look at Tab 4, 11 Inquiry Document 2000758, this is an ERT Operational 12 Report dated August the 5th, 1995. 13 And again, was this filed on your behalf? 14 A: Yes, ma'am. 15 Q: I'd like to make this the next 16 exhibit, please. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1563, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1563: Document Number 2000758. 20 Emergency Response Team- 21 Operational Report 22 (Cossitt/Sgt Huntley) August 23 05, 1995. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:


1 Q: If we go to Tab 5, Inquiry Document 2 number 2000766, this is a report dated August 7, 1995. 3 Was this filed on your behalf? 4 A: Yes, ma'am. 5 Q: I'd like to make this the next 6 exhibit, please. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1564, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1564: Document Number 2000766. 10 Emergency Response Team- 11 Operational Report 12 (Cossitt/Weverink) August 07, 13 1995. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: Tab 6, Inquiry Document number 17 2000783, dated August 15, 1995. 18 Again, was this report filed on your 19 behalf? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: Make that the next exhibit. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1565, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1565: Document Number 2000783. 25 Emergency Response Team -


1 Operational Report 2 (Smith/Cossitt) August 15, 3 1995. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: I wonder if we next go to Tab 7, 7 Inquiry Document number 2000791. And I wonder -- first 8 of all, was this report filed on your behalf? 9 A: Yes, ma'am. 10 Q: And I'd like this to be the next 11 exhibit but, again, there is personal information which 12 will be redacted from the public record. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1566, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1566: Document Number 2000791. 16 Emergency Response Team - 17 Operational Report 18 (Smith/Cossitt) August 17, 19 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: What do you recall gave rise to this 23 report? 24 A: On the 17th of August '95 I was 25 working with another officer, Constable Smith, and we


1 were -- I believe I was dispatched to the gatehouse at 2 the Ipperwash Park, dealing with a complaint. 3 Q: Yes. Yes. 4 A: And was speaking with the complainant 5 at the scene. They indicated that a -- a Native had come 6 in, a Rory George, and had came in. He -- they had 7 indicated to him that he had come in to look for a place 8 where he could build his house next year. 9 Q: And what, if anything, did you take 10 from that report? 11 A: I just indicated and forwarded it off 12 to our people in charge of us. 13 Q: Was this a suggestion to you that 14 there could be an action with respect to the Park? 15 A: It could be related to it. 16 Q: Well, is that something that you 17 contemplated at the time? 18 A: I don't recall what I contemplated at 19 the time, ma'am. 20 Q: All right. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And you -- you indicated a name of an 25 individual, but if you look, it would part of the


1 redacted document, that seems to reference a vehicle stop 2 as opposed to the incident that you've just relayed; do 3 you agree? 4 A: Yes, ma'am. Sorry. 5 Q: Okay. Thank you. If you go next to 6 Tab 8 then. It's Inquiry document number 2000793, and 7 it's a document or a report dated August 17, 1995. 8 This report filed on your behalf. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And do you recall the -- 13 A: I don't recall this one, ma'am. I 14 don't have it in my notes, either. 15 Q: All right. So as far as you know, 16 then, this report does not reflect an incident that you 17 were involved with? 18 A: No, ma'am, I don't recall this one at 19 all. 20 Q: All right. And if you look at your 21 notes, can you tell us who your partner was on August the 22 17th, 1995? 23 A: Constable Smith. 24 Q: Constable Smith, not Constable 25 Sterling?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: All right. Thank you. If you go to 3 Tab 9, please, Inquiry Document 2000795. It's a 4 operational report dated August 18, 1995. Now, was this 5 filed on your behalf? 6 A: Yes, ma'am, it was. 7 Q: I'd like to make this the next 8 exhibit with the personal information redacted, please. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1567, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1567: Document Number 2000795. 12 Emergency Response Team - 13 Operational 14 Report(Smith/Cossitt) August 15 18, 1995. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: And can you recall today what this 19 incident reflected? 20 A: Yes ma'am, I observed a vehicle on 21 Matheson Drive in the vicinity of the Park. The vehicle 22 was driving with two (2) young Native boys hanging off 23 the hood of the car. They were hanging onto the area of 24 the windshield wipers and they were laying down and the 25 vehicle was driving up the roadway.


1 I attended with my partner and we stopped 2 the vehicle and we identified the driver. And I issued a 3 Provincial Offences ticket to the person for driving with 4 the kids attached to the vehicle. 5 Q: And if you go to the next Tab, Tab 6 10, Inquiry document 2000796, this is a report -- 7 operational report dated August 18, 1995. Was this filed 8 on your behalf? 9 A: Yes, ma'am. 10 Q: I'd like to make that the next 11 exhibit, please. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1568, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1568: Document Number 2000796. 15 Emergency Response Team - 16 Operational Report 17 (Smith/Cossitt) August 18, 18 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: And perhaps you can advise us with 22 respect to your recollection of the event that's 23 reflected in this report? 24 A: I was on patrol of the Park with my 25 partner and we received a complaint of two (2) young


1 Native boys had come into the campground, and there was 2 some property taken from a campsite. 3 And the boys ran off and jumped the -- the 4 fence of the Park. And we stopped at the Park, we didn't 5 enter the Park. 6 A -- it was learnt that it -- it was a 7 small radio ghetto blaster that was missing from the 8 campsite. And there was -- I don't recall whether it was 9 myself or my partner, we initiated a call to Grand Bend 10 Detachment and we got some direction, and there was 11 another officer attend, a Constable Bressette, and he 12 helped deal with the situation. 13 Q: All right. Now, you indicated that 14 the boys entered the Park. Did you mean to say the Army 15 Camp? 16 A: No, the camp -- the -- the campground 17 where there was campers in -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- in the Park. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: And they entered the Park and went up 22 through the campsite. 23 Q: Yes. But then when they retreated, 24 where did they retreat -- 25 A: Oh, I'm -- I'm sorry. Yes, they --


1 they -- when they retreated, they ran back into the Army 2 Camp. 3 Q: The Army Camp, not -- 4 A: Yes, ma'am. 5 Q: -- the Park? Okay. 6 A: No, sorry. 7 Q: And what was -- why didn't you pursue 8 them into the Army Camp? 9 A: We were under direction not to enter 10 into the Army Camp area. 11 Q: And do you understand or do you have 12 any knowledge as to what the basis of that direction was, 13 or the rationale underlying it? 14 A: That was land that was in contention 15 and that under no circumstances were we to enter it. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: All right. And as at the end of 21 August 1995, were you aware that the OPP had concerns 22 that the occupiers of the Army Camp might be considering 23 taking over the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 24 A: I'm not aware of that, no -- 25 Q: All right. Were you aware that a


1 meeting occurred on September the 1st, 1995 at the London 2 Detachment to discuss, in part, the OPP response in the 3 event that there was an attempt to take over the 4 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 5 A: No, ma'am. 6 Q: Were you apprised of the particulars 7 of any OPP contingency plan in that respect? 8 A: No, ma'am. 9 Q: Would you kindly go to Tab 12? This 10 is Exhibit P-424, and it's a document dated September 11 1995 and entitled, Project Maple. 12 Were you ever provided with a copy of 13 Project Maple at any time prior to September the 7th, 14 1995? 15 A: No, ma'am, I was not. 16 Q: Were you apprised of its contents at 17 any time prior to September the 7th, 1995? 18 A: No, ma'am. 19 Q: Were you on duty in relation to any 20 Ipperwash related policing assignment on September the 21 4th, 1995? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: It would be approximately around page


1 48, I think. 2 A: Yes, 48. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: No, ma'am. 7 Q: When were you first called out on 8 duty in relation to the occupation of the Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park? 10 A: I received a page at my summer 11 residence at Sauble Beach, at 3:30 in the morning on the 12 5th. 13 A: 5th of September? 14 A: Yes, ma'am. 15 Q: And would you kindly go to Tab 13, 16 Inquiry Document 2005411, pages 49 to 50? 17 And first of all, are these your notes 18 reflecting your policing duties on that -- on September 19 the 5th, 1995? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: And do you recall when you made them? 22 A: It would be around the time of each 23 event. 24 Q: Okay. And have any -- have you made 25 any alterations, additions, or deletions to these notes


1 since you originally created them? 2 A: No, ma'am. 3 Q: I'd like to make this the next 4 exhibit, please? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1569, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1569: Document Number 2005411. 8 Handwritten notebook entries 9 of Chris Cossitt, September 10 05-06, 1995. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: And I note, for ease of reference, 14 that attached, or a part of this document at page 3, is a 15 typed transcription with respect to Tuesday, September 16 the 5th, 1995. Are you aware as to whether this is an 17 accurate transcription of your notes of that date? 18 A: Yes, it appears to be, ma'am. 19 Q: Thank you. According to your notes 20 you arrived at the Forest Detachment to receive your 21 assignment at 6:30 in the morning; is that right? 22 A: That's correct, ma'am. 23 Q: And according to your notes you 24 received a briefing at that time by Inspector Carson and 25 Detective Sergeant Wright; is that correct?


1 A: That's correct, ma'am. 2 Q: Were you apprised at that time the 3 circumstances of the takeover of the -- of the Park that 4 occurred the night before? 5 A: I got some general notes regarding 6 it, yes, ma'am. 7 Q: All right. And do you recall, 8 generally, what you were apprised? 9 A: There was a cruiser damaged and the 10 Park was taken over by some occupiers who refused to 11 leave. And I was -- what shifts I was assigned; I was 12 assigned to Checkpoint 'D' Highway 21 and Army Camp Road. 13 And we were apprised of the media sources, who to forward 14 any media to. 15 Q: All right. Were you apprised of any 16 -- any exchanges and -- verbal exchanges between the 17 police officers and the First Nations people who occupied 18 the Park? 19 A: I'm sorry, I don't recall any. 20 Q: Or whether or not any flares had been 21 thrown? 22 A: I'm sorry, any flares? 23 Q: Flares or incendiary objects that 24 night? 25 A: I don't recall that at all, ma'am.


1 Q: All right. Now what -- what purpose 2 -- were you told what the purpose of your assignment for 3 that day was? 4 A: I don't recall. We were at a 5 checkpoint on Highway 21 and Army Camp Road. 6 Q: I note in your notes, about halfway 7 down on the typed sentence it says that you were to check 8 -- check the stopped vehicles for intelligence. It's on 9 page 50 -- sorry, 49 of your notes, about -- near the 10 bottom of the notes. 11 A: Yes, ma'am. 12 Q: All right. Does that refresh your 13 memory with respect to your function that day? 14 A: We were doing a checkpoint for the 15 purpose of gathering intelligence. 16 Q: And what did you understand was meant 17 by intelligence gathering? 18 A: Identify anybody that may have been 19 involved in the takeover or may have an issue with the 20 Army Camp takeover, identify some people that may be 21 involved in it. 22 Q: And were you told to pay particular 23 attention to any particular type of information? 24 A: I don't recall that. 25 Q: Was that information transmitted back


1 to the command post? 2 A: I don't recall that or whether it was 3 just on operational reports. 4 Q: Do you recall where the checkpoint 5 was that you were assigned to? 6 A: I have Checkpoint 'D' and Highway 21 7 and Army Camp Road. 8 Q: All right. Were you stationary at 9 Checkpoint 'D' all day? 10 A: I believe so, other than maybe a 11 short time relief. 12 Q: You weren't part of a mobile patrol? 13 A: No. I believe I was there most of 14 the day. 15 Q: And I understand the length of your 16 shift that day was 7:00 in the morning until 19:00 hours; 17 is that right? 18 A: That day I would have started at 19 4:10, because we would have to drive down. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: So we have to -- we were in Sudbury, 22 which -- I came down with Constable Thorne. And the 23 shift would have finished at 7:00. 24 Q: Is it fair to say your assignment at 25 the checkpoint commenced at 7:00 in the morning then?


1 A: Yes, ma'am. 2 Q: All right. Were you given any 3 direction responding how you should deal with any First 4 Nations persons and vehicles that you might encounter 5 during the course of your checkpoint duty? 6 A: I don't recall anything. 7 Q: Do you recall there being any 8 interactions of significance with respect to any persons 9 that you encountered during your day shift? 10 A: No, ma'am, not of significance. 11 Q: Did you have any other general 12 purpose to your presence in and around the Army Camp 13 area, besides from intelligence gathering that day? 14 A: For the purpose of security of the 15 area, I believe this would be one of them too. 16 Q: Did you have any understanding of the 17 level of the mood, if you will, amongst the local 18 residents that day, based on your checkpoint duties? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: Did Sergeant Korosec or anyone else 21 ask you if you could operate a front-end loader that day? 22 A: I remember being asked that, but I 23 don't recall who asked me. 24 Q: And did you, in fact, have that 25 ability?


1 A: To operate heavy equipment, yes, 2 ma'am. 3 Q: Did you have any understanding as to 4 why you were being asked that question? 5 A: No, ma'am, I did not inquire. 6 Q: Were you ever asked to operate any 7 such vehicle or front-end loader during the course of 8 your duties? 9 A: No, ma'am. 10 Q: You finished your shift at 19:00 11 hours on the 5th? 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: And were you again assigned to the 14 day shift on September the 6th, 1995? 15 A: Yes, ma'am, at seven o'clock. 16 Q: And what was your general assignment 17 that day? 18 A: It was a mobile patrol with Constable 19 Thorne. 20 Q: All right. And where was your mobile 21 patrol to be -- what general vicinity? 22 A: Outer Road patrol. 23 Q: Sorry? 24 A: Outer Road patrol. 25 Q: All right. Is that on the Port


1 Franks side of the Park, if you will? 2 A: Yes, ma'am. 3 Q: And perhaps you would go to Tab 16, 4 it's Inquiry Document Number 1000471. 5 And I would also ask you at the same time 6 to look at Tab 17, which doesn't bear an Inquiry document 7 number, but I understand it bears the -- the number -- 8 page number 60 at the bottom of it. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And if you look at those two (2) 13 documents combined, do those reflect your notes, 14 reflecting the events of September 6th, 1995? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: It appears to, ma'am, yes. 19 Q: Thank you. And did you make any 20 alterations, additions or deletions to these notes since 21 you originally created them? 22 A: No, ma'am. 23 Q: I'd like to make the document, 24 Inquiry document 1000471, the next exhibit. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1570 Your Honour.


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1570: Document Number 1000471. 2 Handwritten notebook entries 3 of Chris Cossitt, September 4 06-07, 1995. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: And for the record, that reflects 8 pages 50 to 62 of September the 6th, 1995 with the 9 exception of page 60 of -- of Officer Cossitt's notes. 10 And I'd like to make the document at Tab 17, being page 11 60 of the -- that -- these notes, the next exhibit, 12 please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1571, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1571: Document Number 2005606. 16 Handwritten notebook entries 17 of Chris Cossitt, page 60, 18 September 06, 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: Now, do you have your original 22 notebook here today? 23 A: Yes, ma'am, I do. 24 Q: And is page 60 in it? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, ma'am, it is. 4 Q: All right. Now, going back to Tab 5 16, Exhibit P-1570, I note that on page 50 of your 6 notebook there appears to be a notation at about -- 7 sorry, prior to 10:30 with respect to check on Mayor's 8 residence. 9 Do you see that? 10 A: Yes, ma'am. 11 Q: And can you just tell me what time 12 that entry is? 13 A: 11:45. 14 Q: 11:45? 15 A: Yes, ma'am. 16 Q: And the next entry, though, is 10:30. 17 A: 12:30. The next entry would be 18 12:30, ma'am. 19 Q: So that's 12:30, is it? 20 A: I believe so. 21 Q: Oh, okay, thank you. 22 A: I apologize. 23 Q: Thank you. All right. And can you 24 tell me what the purpose of checking the Mayor's 25 residence was?


1 A: Part of our assignment that day was 2 to check on the security of the local politician or 3 Mayor. 4 Q: Was there any particular threat that 5 was being posed, that you were aware of? 6 A: I don't recall. 7 Q: All right. And did you check on the 8 Mayor's residence from time to time throughout the day? 9 A: That's correct, we did ma'am. 10 Q: And when you checked on the 11 residence, were there any signs of difficulty at or 12 around the Mayor's residence that you observed? 13 A: No, ma'am. 14 Q: Did you have any interaction with the 15 crew from the HH Graham that day? 16 A: Yes, ma'am, I did. 17 Q: And can you tell us when and what the 18 nature of that contact was? 19 A: Basically for transport. We picked 20 them up at a marina and we transported them back to, I 21 think it was Forest, Forest Detachment. 22 Q: Could you go to your 17:00 entry at 23 page 51, please? 24 A: Yes, ma'am. 25 Q: And can you just tell us what -- what


1 that incident was about? 2 A: We were dispatched due to a complaint 3 of a vehicle -- a dump truck and a white Camaro on the 4 beach front, on the porks -- Port Franks side, and we 5 went to the scene in response to a complaint. 6 Q: All right. And did you hear any 7 concerns from the residents in the Port Franks area with 8 respect to the occupation of the Park at that time? 9 A: I spoke to some residents there, and 10 I just don't recall what they said. 11 Q: Were you able to allay any -- any 12 concerns that they had? 13 A: I think our presence helped make them 14 feel a little more at ease. 15 Q: All right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And did you give a statement 20 concerning the material events of September 6th, up to 21 19:00 hours? 22 Do you recall giving a statement? 23 Perhaps you could go to Tab 21. It's 24 Inquiry document number 1000287. It appears to be the 25 statements that you have provided.


1 A: Yes, it appears to be. I don't 2 recall that, ma'am. 3 Q: You have no recall of this statement 4 or -- 5 A: No, ma'am. 6 Q: -- to whom it was provided? 7 A: To whom it was provided? No, ma'am, 8 I do not. 9 Q: Would you take a moment to review it 10 and advise whether it's an accurate summary of the 11 material events that you were involved in up to 19:00 12 hours or 7:00 p.m.? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Yes. Both pages seem to be the same 17 statement. 18 Q: Yes, I appreciate that. 19 A: The -- it appears to be accurate, 20 yes, ma'am. 21 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 22 next exhibit, please. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1572, Your Honour. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 25


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1572: Document Number 1000287. 2 Statement of C.W. Cossitt 3 (undated). 4 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, I believe 6 this would be an appropriate time to break for the day. 7 I know we have another matter that we must attend to and 8 so I would respectfully request that we adjourn, at least 9 the evidence -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- until tomorrow at 12 9:00. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 We'll break for the day and continue with our evidence at 15 nine o'clock. We'll take a short five (5) minute break 16 now and then we'll resume -- 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- with the 19 motion. Thank you very much. 20 21 (WITNESS RETIRES) 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 5:13 p.m.


1 --- Upon resuming at 5:22 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed. Please be seated. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I don't know if I 9 should say good afternoon or good evening. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 11 not sure, either. You're going first, are you, Mr. 12 Rosenthal? 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I am and I shall be 14 brief, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you've 16 estimated you might be about fifteen (15) minutes -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Fifteen (15) 18 minutes. I'm going to try and even be less; we'll see. 19 I'll note my time right here. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just want 21 to make sure that I can stay with us all the way through, 22 that's all. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, okay, I'll try 24 and -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.


1 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- wake you up 2 again. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I'm 4 fine. Carry on. 5 6 MOTION BY ABORIGINAL LEGAL SERVICES OF TORONTO AND THE 7 AAZHOODENA AND GEORGE FAMILY GROUP: 8 9 PRESENTATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Now, sir, we've had 11 an interesting development, obviously, in -- in this 12 month with respect to the memorabilia. The T-shirt that 13 we had before was offensive in most everyone's view. 14 But this T-shirt, the interpretation, 15 despite what Officer LeBlanc told us, is clear. Officer 16 Hebblethwaite testified, for example, that the obvious 17 interpretation is that between TRU and ERT, they broke 18 the First Nations people. 19 A broken arrow might mean something else 20 in a different context, not between a TRU symbol and an 21 anvil. It's amazing that it took almost eleven (11) 22 years for us to be aware of this. 23 Now, I would have hoped that this Motion 24 wouldn't have been necessary. I don't understand, and 25 we'll wait and see what the OPP and the OPPA say in


1 response to it. But I would have thought they would have 2 said, Actually you don't have to make the motion, we did 3 it already. 4 What's the first part of the motion? That 5 the OPP, by operation of a formal order, require all 6 officers to preserve and surrender any and all 7 memorabilia related to these incidents. 8 Ms. Tuck-Jackson told us on the record on 9 May 11 that an investigation was being launched. One 10 would have hoped that the first thing that would have 11 been done to begin an investigation would be to issue 12 such an order. If that's been done already then we don't 13 need the motion, we could just have the verification. If 14 it's not been done, how could it not have been done? 15 We've -- we've learned that a lot of 16 people have already destroyed T-shirts and memorabilia 17 and it's urgent that there be an order that they be 18 preserved and surrendered. 19 Now, similarly with respect to the second 20 requested order that the OPPA formally notify its members 21 of its obligations to produce such material. Now, on May 22 11 Mr. Millar told us on the record that he had asked Mr. 23 Roland to canvass his clients to determine whether any of 24 his clients had a T-shirt, and then he said that Mr. 25 Roland did canvass his clients, some of whom disclosed to


1 him they did have T-shirts. 2 What kind of a canvass did Mr. Roland 3 already do? If he did what's required by the second 4 motion I hope he'll tell us that. If he didn't, I hope 5 you'll require him to; that's the kind of canvass that's 6 necessary. 7 Unfortunately, it appears that he did not 8 do the kind of canvass that's necessary because a few 9 days after May 11, for example on May 16 we had PC Poole 10 testifying that he'd never been asked about a T-shirt, 11 and he was somebody who came to this Inquiry even five 12 (5) days later, not somebody out there in the wilderness 13 of OPP officers, but somebody who was even coming up, and 14 he hadn't been asked. And then just today we had 15 Officer LeBlanc. Ms. Esmonde asked him, Have you -- had 16 you been asked anything about T-shirts prior to May 12th, 17 and he said, No. 18 So there hasn't been any kind of 19 appropriate canvassing and we don't know what's out 20 there. And we don't know -- we -- we were told that 21 there were a hundred and fifty (150) T-shirts produced, 22 presumably with the arrows on them. How many of this 23 kind were produced? Who has them and so on? 24 And we won't know unless something is done 25 to make sure that we know. There was a so-called


1 investigation by the OPP, reported at Tab 17 of 2 Exhibit 1051, and I should just like to briefly refer to 3 a little part of that. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I want to 8 see if it's the same thing. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm referring from 10 Tab 17 -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I have 12 it here. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- of Exhibit P- 14 1051, to page 16 of the report by Staff Sergeant Aitken. 15 Sorry, I don't have so many copies, but you all have 16 Exhibit P-1051. 17 Page 16, the second paragraph: 18 "[blanked out] was shown two (2) 19 designs, one (1) with an arrow, one (1) 20 with a feather." 21 Now, Mr. Commissioner, when I read that I 22 thought that it meant before the T-shirts were produced 23 there were two (2) designs being considered, because I -- 24 I thought there was only one (1) T-shirt. 25 But this might well mean that there were


1 two (2) different T-shirts, and the only one being 2 investigated was the one with the feather. Now, of 3 course, we don't know because of the whiting out and that 4 relates to the motion about unredacting this document. 5 They're all police officers involved in this in one (1) 6 way or another, why is there confidentiality here? We 7 would understand more what was meant, perhaps, if we knew 8 the name that was blanked out here. 9 And whoever that is, according to the 10 report, stated that the one with the arrow was offensive, 11 but he was not personally offended by the feather. We 12 didn't know the one with the arrow was actually produced, 13 but it has been produced at least several copies thereof, 14 according to evidence we have so far. 15 Later on in this page it says, towards the 16 bottom: 17 "There seems to be many interpretations 18 as to what the feather stands for. A 19 feather on its side indicates a fallen 20 warrior. Other First Nations thought 21 it was a peace symbol." 22 There's not many interpretations of -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not with 24 you on that. Where are you reading from? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry, sir, it's --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 16 at 2 the bottom? 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- the second 4 passage towards the bottom of page 16. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: It begins: 7 "There seems to be..." 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I see 9 it now. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: "...many 11 interpretations as to what the feather 12 stands for." 13 But I suggest to you there are not many 14 interpretations of the other T-shirt with the anvil, 15 although there are several possibilities. It could be 16 breaking First Nations people, it could be killing First 17 Nations people, it could be crushing First Nations 18 people, but it's something like that between TRU and ERT. 19 There's no room for debate about the 20 nature of that T-shirt. 21 We're getting towards the end of the 22 Inquiry; we're all glad about that. We don't have very 23 long to go. This must be dealt with urgently, in my 24 respectful submission, Mr. Commissioner. 25 I would urge you to make these orders and


1 make the orders for a summons of these documents today or 2 tomorrow and -- and let's find out the nature and the 3 extent of this problem and deal with it appropriately at 4 this Inquiry. We cannot rely on the OPP to deal with it. 5 We've just had an officer today, Officer 6 LeBlanc, who doesn't see that this T-shirt is a problem, 7 the one -- the one with the anvil and the TRU team 8 breaking the arrow. 9 So I've used only seven (7) minutes, sir, 10 and I hope -- I'll keep the other eight (8) for Reply, if 11 necessary. I don't see how there could be anything I 12 have to reply to. 13 I hope that the OPP and OPPA will come and 14 say they accede to the Motion. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 16 Mr. Rosenthal. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 21 Falconer, are you going to be up next? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You


1 indicated that you would be about a half hour? 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's correct, Mr. 3 Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Good afternoon. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 afternoon. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Good evening. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 evening. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, I 12 provided a copy to your Counsel as well as My Friends. 13 In -- in the hopes of expediting the process I have, 14 through the able assistance of my colleagues, including 15 Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto, we created a 16 chart -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- in which all the 19 chart does is refer to. And if you could put a title, 20 because we should put a title on it, simply edited 21 identities -- edited identities, if that title could be 22 put on it, with respect, edited identities -- edited 23 identities of investigative apparatus. 24 That's all this is meant to reflect. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 PRESENTATION BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Now, as this is a - 5 - a Motion, I'm going to respectfully request -- I don't 6 know -- I don't want to, in any way, disrupt your 7 process, Mr. Commissioner, but as this is a Motion, I'm 8 going to respectfully request that the chart be made an 9 exhibit on the Motion. 10 There is a few other documents I'm going 11 to respectfully request that it be as well. So I don't 12 know, in terms of numbering, how you propose to do that. 13 I don't want to disrupt -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Any 15 suggestion how we deal with it? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well we'll just mark 17 it Exhibit 1 on the Motion on May 23rd. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 THE REGISTRAR: Sobeit. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. 1 (on Motion only): 23 Notice of Motion of May 23, 2006, "Edited 24 Identities of Investigative Apparatus." 25


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Exhibit 1 on 2 the Motion. 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And if Mr. Clerk 4 could entitle it, Edited Identities of Investigative 5 Apparatus. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir, I have that. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. If I 8 could direct your attention, Mr. Commissioner, to the 9 Motion. Mr. Rosenthal's referred to it, but I'd like to 10 turn it up for a minute, if I could. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Now, Mr. 15 Rosenthal's made reference to the -- the -- the broad 16 nature of the relief we seek, but I'd like to address a 17 number of matters about this relief. 18 And it arises out of the grounds, if you 19 look at page 2, Mr. Commissioner. Basically, as is 20 obvious to everyone, this is a Motion in order to (1) 21 preserve any exhibits that are out there that potent -- 22 or items that are out there that relate to being 23 potentially racist memorabilia in relation to the 24 Ipperwash incident, pure and simple. That's all it is. 25 And -- and from there, we need a certain


1 amount of relief to get there; that is, we want to 2 preserve what is potentially racist memorabilia arising 3 out of the Ipperwash operation. And this is the only 4 way, with respect, we see, as parties, to do it. 5 Now, why do we say that we're at the stage 6 that we have to bring this Motion? And I'm not -- I'm 7 trying to avoid the speeches. I got thirty (30) minutes 8 and -- and it's late in the day and you don't need it. 9 At -- at paragraphs 1 and 2 we address the 10 realities that we're presently faced with. I say, first 11 of all, and you'll see it, that there was an 12 investigation by the Ontario Provincial Police in October 13 1995, and you'll see I refer to this. The reality that 14 there was an investigation in which the OPP investigated 15 and addressed incidents of racial bias by its members. 16 And clearly, what occurred -- what 17 occurred is that investigation missed the mark. And I 18 don't say it missed the mark in a small way, I say it 19 missed the mark in an extraordinary way. 20 I will be showing you, very quickly, on 21 the evidence, by list of names, how the investigation by 22 the OPP into itself, that is the self-examination by the 23 OPP in this matter, missed a large number of witnesses 24 and thereby missed a large amount of paraphernalia that 25 easily could have been obtained and looked at and


1 understood. 2 Now, this isn't just about seeing some 3 tokens or understanding a few items. This is about a 4 window into the mentality or culture of OPP officers at 5 the time; that is, how they perceived the incident and 6 operation and how they perceived their role. 7 What you will see in ground 1 is we say 8 that this issue -- we say that this issue, set out at 9 page 2, ground 1, is directly relevant to the events 10 surrounding the death of Dudley George. 11 I -- you don't need me to tell you your 12 mandate but it is part of my job to speak to the issue 13 when I'm before you on a motion. It has to be within 14 your mandate. 15 In my respectful submission, the order in 16 council speaks to the notion of making recommendations 17 directed to the avoidance of violence in similar 18 circumstances. 19 Your Counsel -- and I -- and I quote him, 20 and Mr. Millar knows that I've given him what some might 21 perceive as a hard time on the record or off the record 22 when I didn't agree with him. So when I do agree with 23 him I'm -- I'm, you know, I want to say it, and we're 24 quoting it. 25 And it's page 3, and it's paragraph 8.


1 Mr. Millar said on May 11th, and it's words worth 2 repeating: 3 "The road to healing and reconciliation 4 will not be built if obstacles to that 5 goal of healing and reconciliation are 6 not excavated and the conduct of 7 individuals not examined in the light 8 of day." 9 Now, we know -- we know that what Mr. 10 Millar intended and meant, I say with respect, he can 11 speak to it himself, but he meant you can't have healing 12 if you don't first have truth. 13 They talk about commissions in South 14 Africa, in Australia, truth and reconciliation. You 15 don't go straight to reconciliation, you go truth and 16 then reconciliation. 17 And the reason is: Those who you are 18 reconciling with, especially victims, those the subject 19 of oppression, will not trust anyone if they don't 20 believe the truth has been revealed about what happened 21 to them. That's -- it's axiomatic, and I don't mean to 22 be lecturing on you, but this takes me to a point. 23 And the point is that notion of your 24 mandate, Mr. Commissioner, set out at page 2, ground 1, 25 which is:


1 "Directed to the avoidance of violence 2 in similar circumstances. 3 Recommendations directed to the 4 avoidance of violence in similar 5 circumstances." 6 You know, Mr. Commissioner, that if this 7 isn't fully explored, the racist incidents arising from 8 Ipperwash, that they will remain a festering sore. And 9 in remaining a festering sore, there will not be healing. 10 And so, for example, the painful exercise 11 of having to listen to me examine, for example, sergeant 12 Hebblethwaite on what the point of TRU breaking an arrow 13 over the anvil meant to him, right. 14 But in addition, what a literal meaning of 15 the logo would mean; to me, rather self-servingly, I say 16 that reflects part of the excavation. It's that painful 17 act of saying of saying, Look at this, What does this 18 mean to the standard person. Okay, I hear what you say, 19 Sergeant, but you'd agree with me that it's a TRU symbol 20 breaking an arrow. 21 And he goes, Yes. And what does the arrow 22 to you, and he answers, he says it means -- I say, 23 Doesn't it represent First Nations people, he says, No, 24 it represents the occupiers. I don't know if you recall 25 that evidence but that was his specific evidence. And so


1 to him it represented TRU team breaking the occupiers. 2 Now, even if he didn't make that candid 3 admission, it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that that T- 4 shirt and that logo, worn by many more other than simply 5 Sergeant Hebblethwaite, that that logo would mean to a 6 First Nations person or any person in the street, and I 7 emphasize that, there is no reason that a person in 8 downtown Toronto or in downtown Forest shouldn't -- their 9 views as the reasonable person -- Lord Denning talked 10 about the reasonable man in the omnibus, in the Clapton 11 (phonetic) omnibus, there is no reason their views 12 shouldn't matter. 13 And when you look at that as a reasonable 14 person you don't Google -- you don't Google what -- what 15 TRU breaking an arrow over an ERT anvil means, you look 16 at it and go, Well, that means they won? It's a 17 dominating thing. It isn't friendly, happy peace. It's 18 an act of anti-First Nations memento. It's -- it's a 19 reflection of it. 20 And all I say to you, Mr. Commissioner, is 21 if we're going to get to the bottom of this and create 22 healing, we need to reveal the truth. Is -- are there 23 more T-shirts out there of a different nature? We don't 24 know the answer to that. We can all say, Well, no, now 25 we're done, but frankly, without the order we seek, we


1 can't be confident we are done. 2 Mr. Rosenthal is right, it's hard to 3 believe that the OPP would oppose making such an order. 4 The order simply addresses itself to any memorabilia 5 arising out of the Ipperwash operation, that's it, not 6 another operation. 7 And it's all officers who have that 8 memorabilia, because it's the memorabilia, first and 9 foremost, we have an interest in, to understand, to get 10 that window into their culture, their mentality, what 11 they thought was acceptable. 12 You'll recall the second in command of 13 Operation Ipperwash, Detective Sergeant Mark Wright, 14 testified he was shown symbols and didn't have a problem 15 with them. We don't know if he was shown the logo of TRU 16 team breaking an arrow over an anvil because we didn't 17 know about it. It's a window into their culture. 18 Now, at paragraph 2 of page 2, paragraph 2 19 of page 2 you will see the reference to Mr. Roland, 20 Counsel for the OPPA. Now, unless I'm wrong, Mr. Roland 21 has yet to withdraw his statement that there's no 22 obligation at all. There's no obligation for an officer 23 and his private property whether he retains it or not. 24 Now that's an extraordinary statement. If 25 officers continue -- first of all, I ask you to take a


1 step back and consider this. Now it may be that Mr. 2 Roland said it off the cuff and -- and he should be free 3 to withdraw that point, but the implications of 4 maintaining that view are the following: 5 First of all, if that was his view on 6 April 21st, 2006 as counsel for the OPPA, then that was 7 probably his view in April 2005 and April 2004 and all 8 the way back to the convening of this Inquiry, meaning 9 the advice he would have given his clients is they're 10 free to deal with the items as they choose. That's a 11 reasonable inference to draw from this. That's his 12 position. 13 Number 2, more importantly, that means as 14 these situations got more and more contentious, officers 15 who -- who may not have the fortitude of a Sergeant 16 Hebblethwaite may, as today goes on, still be destroying 17 them because Mr. Roland may still have the same position, 18 I don't know. 19 Now, I -- I put at the start of Sub 2 that 20 Counsel for the OPPA recently canvassed some of his 21 clients and determined that some did have T-shirts or had 22 T-shirts but not the T-shirt in P-458. Now, this is 23 quoting Mr. Millar. 24 So that means Mr. Roland did take pro- 25 active steps to find out if there's T-shirts out there,


1 and that's how the Hebblethwaite T-shirt came to the 2 knowledge of the Commission. I accept that. 3 So I simply say, Let's fix this. Mr. 4 Roland should rise and withdraw that position so we know 5 that isn't an issue. And if he doesn't withdraw that 6 position it makes your order all the more important. You 7 can't be halfway about this, they're either free to 8 destroy them or they're not, and they're not free to 9 destroy them; they are potential evidence, it's not 10 appropriate. 11 And if they have a privacy interest they 12 feel means they get to keep it, then they assert it like 13 anyone else does with potential evidence. 14 I do point out this, the Reference to, 15 "Some did have," at paragraph 2: 16 "Some did have T-shirts or had T-shirts 17 but not the T-shirt in P-458." 18 I don't know if Mr. Millar was carefully 19 using the plural and that there are other T-shirts, or 20 not. I -- I imagine Mr. Millar will speak to that. But 21 if there are other officers with T-shirts we should know 22 about that, it makes it all the more important. But it 23 may be that Mr. Millar was using plural and singular back 24 and forth. I only raise it because I noticed the wording 25 at the time.


1 Now, at paragraph 3 of our grounds, page 2 3, I refer to the fact that Sergeant Robert Graham 3 testified about the timing of his destruction of the T- 4 shirt, of a T-shirt. You'll recall Mr. Julian Roy's 5 cross-examination on April 21st, 2006, pages 206, 207 in 6 which this officer testified about destroying T-shirts in 7 the course of the Inquiry in 2006. 8 And I want to emphasize that it is untrue 9 to suggest he only destroyed it in response to it being 10 an issue at the Inquiry. 11 That is not what he said. I re-read his 12 evidence and I'm quite clear he didn't say that. What he 13 said is, it was part of the equation at the time, that 14 his wife gave him that advice and that he took it, and it 15 was part of the decision process at the time that it was 16 a live issue at the Inquiry. 17 So Mr. Roy brought that out from him. And 18 the bottom line to all of this is that we know there's a 19 process in which some officers are engaging in 20 destruction of their items. 21 We don't know how many. Am I being 22 paranoid? Is there a conspiracy? I don't say there is. 23 It may well be they feel free to destroy the -- the 24 memorabilia. 25 And I say, we need to stop it now and know


1 what's out there. 2 Here's what I say, with great respect, 3 becomes very interesting, and it's this, Mr. 4 Commissioner. P-1051 and 1052 reflect an investigation 5 by the OPP into two (2) items. If you have the records 6 there, very quickly I'm going to take you through this in 7 the time I have left. 8 P-1051 and 1052 reflect what I 9 respectfully submit to you is proof positive that your 10 proactive intervention is needed here, for the public 11 interest and the -- and the preservation of confidence in 12 -- in policing. 13 P-1051 and 1052 ostensibly are supposed to 14 represent the OPP's best efforts to investigate alleged 15 acts of racism and to deal with it. 16 A form of self-policing. Now, it bears 17 note and I've -- I've provided copies of this to My 18 Friends, but it certainly bears note that most recently, 19 as recently as April 19th, 2006, and I'm handing up a 20 copy of this, the Attorney General announced new 21 legislation in respect of police investigations and 22 police complaints. 23 And the -- the gist of the new legislation 24 is it's directing itself to the notion -- do you have 25 that in front of you, Mr. Commissioner?


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. You'll see 3 it's dated April 19th, 2006, it's very recent; two (2) 4 days before the testimony of -- of Graham. 5 And it deals with -- it deals with the 6 notion of the -- of implementing La Sage (phonetic) 7 report. You'll see that -- the second to last paragraph 8 on the first page: 9 "In June 2004 the Government appointed 10 the former chief Justice of Ontario, 11 Superior Court of Justice, Patrick J. 12 La Sage to conduct a review of 13 Ontario's Police Complaints system. 14 After months of extensive review and 15 consultation, La Sage submitted twenty- 16 seven (27) recommendations to the 17 Attorney General, including the 18 recommendation that a new, independent 19 civilian oversight body be created." 20 Now the bottom line, and you'll see this 21 in the previous paragraphs, is this body is capable of 22 independent investigation and -- and review of 23 complaints. 24 Now I want to emphasise, to be fair to the 25 facts, the Le Sage report in process was directed at


1 public complaints, concerning the police and potential 2 police misconduct. 3 But the fact that -- that Stan Cloud's 4 complaint ended up a non-complaint, if you look closely 5 at these materials you'll know that that's where the 6 problem started; that the people he had to deal with were 7 the very people he didn't trust and was concerned about. 8 And then finally they initiated the 9 complaint themselves, because he was concerned about 10 doing it. The process didn't work; it broke down. 11 He should have had access to an 12 independent body that didn't intimidate him. I only 13 raise that, and I can take you to the portions of the 14 report where he speaks to being intimidated or feeling 15 intimated and being concerned. 16 So the recognition in our system today, in 17 April 2006, of the importance of, in -- in many 18 circumstances, the police not investigating the police, 19 is now gainsaid, it's happening. 20 Now, having said that, I want to go 21 backwards to what happened here, because the first thing 22 we deal with is this notion of an investigation. 23 And if you turn to document 15 of P-1051. 24 I'm going to deal with mugs and T-shirts first and then 25 go back to Dyke and Whitehead to make the point, as


1 quickly as I can. 2 At document 15, you'll see the process 3 that commences for the creation of a complaint, and 4 you'll see -- I'm sorry, if you flip from document 15, 5 which says, "Index Cover Page," and you flip and you get 6 to document 16, do you have that? 7 Which is a complaint processing report. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 9 that I'm with you. Document 15 -- 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 16 is the next 11 document. So you're at Volume I. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm in -- 13 oh, there it is. Yes, I see it now. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 16, it says, 15 "Complaints Processing Report"? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Now this is 18 purportedly the document and it's dated October 17th, 19 '95. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It sets up the 22 official complaint process in relation to the mugs and T- 23 shirts incidents, allegedly racist memorabilia relating 24 to the operation. 25 Now what you see, interestingly enough, is


1 where it refers to who's been assigned to investigate the 2 incident, they blacked out the name. Now, the chart I've 3 provided you says, you see this, halfway down: 4 "Traffic Staff Sergeant [blank] has 5 been assigned to investigate." 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That was unredacted. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Oh. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I put that on the 10 record. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: My apologies, I 12 didn't know that. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That was unredacted. 14 We put that on the record. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We obtained the 17 consent after. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 19 Of course, as the chart reflects, there 20 are many, many more names that have been redacted. If My 21 Friend wants to assist me, if I've missed any others, I 22 apologize for that. I'm working on the basis of what I 23 have in front of me. 24 The next passage that I'm concerned with - 25 - now we -- we go through this at some great length. So


1 if you flip to the chart -- do you have the chart in 2 front of you, Mr. Commissioner? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which chart 4 are you referring to? 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The chart we filed 6 as Exhibit 1 on this motion. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 8 The next number on the chart? 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No. If you go to 10 page 4 on the chart. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: As it relates to 13 some of the items, there was some informal discipline. 14 And you see in relation to Document 93? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. Could 17 you -- brief indulgence. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: As you see in 22 relation to Document 93, the Regional Commander and 23 Detective Commander who signed off on the informal 24 discipline, his name has been redacted. 25 If you flip over to Document 94, the


1 Regional Commander and Detective Commanders again 2 redacted. 3 Document 95, the District Commander's 4 signature is redacted. 5 Those in charge of meting out the 6 discipline, the -- the small iota of discipline handed 7 out in this case, those people have been redacted. And, 8 in -- in my respectful submission, that's highly 9 problematic. 10 The -- the reason, I say with respect, 11 it's important to focus on P-1051 and 1052, is what's not 12 here. And I can give you what's not here just by giving 13 you a list of names. 14 If you'll bare with me, Mr. Commissioner, 15 the people that are not identified in any way as having 16 been interviewed, and that's because they've now 17 testified they were never interviewed by the 18 investigators, are Officer Dougan, D-O-U-G-A-N, Officer 19 Korosec, Officer Graham, Officer Zupancic, Officer 20 Jacklin, Officer Huntley, Officer Hebblethwaite, Officer 21 Poole, Officer Root, Officer Bittner, Officer York -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, what's 23 that -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- and Officer 25 LeBlanc.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's that 2 list? Is that a list of people who were not -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Not interviewed. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 5 interviewed? 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Not interviewed. 7 Had memorabilia, not interviewed. You almost have to -- 8 you -- to avoid interviewing some of these individuals 9 who -- for example, Officer Korosec, the head of ERT, you 10 have to -- in my respectful submission, you have to 11 actually make an effort not to do this job. 12 With great respect, this is not simply a 13 deficient investigation, this is a shotty investigation, 14 with respect. And I say that, not meaning to be 15 dramatic, but it is extraordinary that these individuals, 16 given the nature of the complaints and the concern over 17 racist memorabilia, were not approached or asked about 18 whether they knew of any and whether they themselves had 19 any. 20 It reflects a form of tunnel vision in the 21 investigation, which takes me full circle to what my 22 submission about P-1051 and 1052 is, is that it reflects 23 a thoroughly shotty job that cannot be relied upon. 24 Now, backing up a step. What does that 25 mean? Well, if you can't excavate the truth, using Mr.


1 Millar's words, using 1051 and 1052 as presently 2 redacted, then it's important for us to figure out what 3 is the truth. 4 The first question about what is the truth 5 is to get the memorabilia that exists out there, hence 6 the request for orders. But the second issue that has to 7 concern you, Mr. Commissioner, given your mandate, I 8 respectfully submit, is to understand how the 9 investigation apparatus could fail so substantially and 10 fundamentally to look into the truth of the allegations 11 of racism. 12 Now you can't know how the investigative 13 apparatus could fail, unless you know who's in the 14 investigative apparatus. 15 And the question really becomes: How 16 could it be possibly in keeping with fostering public 17 confidence in policing, or fostering transparency, to 18 hide the name of the investigators or the decision makers 19 who decided on how to conduct this investigation? 20 Of course those same investigators and 21 decision makers actually meted out no discipline at all, 22 no formal or informal discipline in respect of the T- 23 shirts; that never happened. 24 Now, what is apparent from P-1051, that's 25 the Volume 1, is what happens when they're confronted


1 with directly racist comments. And this -- I'm taking 2 you to the Dyke and Whitehead matter. And I'm alive to 3 the time and trying to stay within it. 4 If I could take you to the Dyke and 5 Whitehead matter that occupies the first fourteen (14) 6 documents of P-1051, Volume 1? I apologize if I'm going 7 too fast but I'm trying to cover a large ground. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, you're 9 doing fine. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: This is what is 11 first striking. We have to understand the context, Mr. 12 Commissioner. I know you know about it, that you ruled 13 on it, but I want to go back to it for just one (1) 14 moment, if I may. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The context are 19 comments that are made on a tape. And if you could turn 20 to Document 6 because Document 6 -- and I'm at -- there's 21 no page numbers but if you flip three (3) pages into the 22 Whitehead document? So if you could go to Document 6, 23 then three (3) pages in, these are the comments that 24 they're focussed on. 25 Now, I'm using Whitehead because Whitehead


1 remains a police officer, as I understand it, he's a -- 2 no, Dyke is not a police officer, Whitehead is a police 3 officer. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 5 think either of them were still police officers, I'm not 6 sure. My understanding was neither of them were -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I think that -- 8 well, Mr. Falconer and I have the same -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 10 know. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- recollection and I 12 believe that Mr. Dyke is no longer a police officer but 13 it was my understanding Mr. Whitehead was. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. Now, 16 Detective Sergeant Whitehead... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: ...may be retiring 21 as we speak. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, for 23 some reason I -- 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: That's not -- the 25 suggestion there is not fair. I -- it's clear that --


1 that Darryl Whitehead was a police officer at the time, 2 both of the events and of the investigation that occurred 3 in, I think, '02. 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: '03. 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: '03. I'm not sure 6 whether he -- I'm not sure whether he's retired. He may 7 be retired now, I'm just not sure. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 Carry on. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: At the -- at the 11 material time, at all times they were dealing with him 12 he's a police officer; we don't know different. We 13 should know, by the way, with respect, it might be useful 14 to clarify that. 15 But because the disciplines handed out 16 while he's a serving member of the police service, that's 17 what, to me, is highly relevant. 18 And in particular, at the third page of 19 Document 6, the third page which is part of the statement 20 of Darryl Whitehead, if you flip two (2) pages back you 21 see the statement. It's the third page. They refer to 22 the tape count and you should see at the top of that page 23 the video is then shut off and restarts immediately? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I'm on 25 that page.


1 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Right. There is 2 the fourth to last paragraph at tape count 02636? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Okay. Mr. -- 5 Officer Whitehead describes what he says. At tape count 6 02636 there is an utterance which I believe is my voice 7 in which I state, quote: 8 "This is a burial ground. Let's do 9 some doughnuts on the burial ground 10 where our ancestors are buried." 11 Close quotes. 12 He goes on to say: 13 "This comment was made as a result of 14 observing occupiers within the Base and 15 they're vehicles doing doughnuts in 16 areas they considered sacred. This 17 activity is depicted on this tape in 18 count 08:53 at tape count 27:38. 19 We exit the vehicle and speak with an 20 unknown person." 21 Then he goes on to say, and you'll see the 22 quote above it: 23 "At tape count 02604 there is an 24 utterance which I believe is my voice 25 in which I say, Big, fat fuck. I have


1 no independent recollection who or what 2 this comment is directed towards." 3 And we also have the comment, and you'll 4 see this set out, Mr. Commissioner, at Document 1, second 5 page in relation to the tape, Document 1, second page, 6 second to last paragraph: 7 "Just a great big, fat fucking Indian." 8 Now, these are blatantly racist statements 9 along with the humour engaged with Dyke. Now, you -- 10 you could -- these extraordinarily offensive remarks, 11 alone, are bad enough. 12 When you look at the exchanges of humour 13 between Dyke and Whitehead, concerning using beer as bait 14 to bait First Nations people, it's -- it's obvious that 15 there is a racist mentality operating through 16 intelligence officers on September 5th, 1995, carrying 17 out their duties at Ipperwash Provincial Park. 18 Now, I can -- I can indicate, Mr. 19 Commissioner, that as a result of the most recent 20 revelations over the T-shirts, the recognition that the 21 investigation's as flawed as it is, based on the number 22 of people who weren't interviewed, that the evidence that 23 wasn't seized, that one of the concerns certainly my 24 client has and has already raised it with Commission 25 Counsel this afternoon, is that it is important to hear


1 from Officer Whitehead, in our respectful submission. 2 We see he's not on the witness list and 3 we'll be raising this formally, if that's what is 4 appropriate to do to ensure he's there. 5 But here's the issue. The issue that has 6 to be of some interest to you, Mr. Commissioner, in terms 7 of systemic recommendations is, if you look at document 8 1, page 1, if you look at document 1, page 1, the date of 9 the complaint is indicated as July 25th, 2003. 10 Do you have that? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I do. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Then if you have 13 regard to -- if you have regard to, and I apologize... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: ...document 6 at 18 page 6. The records aren't that organized, so I have to 19 flip back and forth. So we know July 25th, '03 is the 20 date that the complaint is first brought to the attention 21 of the OPP brass, management. 22 You'll see the third page in, I'm sorry, 23 second page in, of document 6, it says: 24 "On the 29th of July, 2003 I was 25 questioned by Detective Inspector


1 [blank] regarding any videotaping I 2 would have done on 5th of September." 3 Do you see that? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. So they 6 discover the problem July 25th, 2003, that these 7 utterances were made by intelligence officers, the 8 intelligence officer's brought in July 29th, 2003. And 9 the speediest investigation that I have ever seen in my 10 career, that's no longer as brief as I'd like to think it 11 was, I'm getting old, the speediest investigation and 12 conclusion that I have ever seen in my work, occurred in 13 this case. And you'll find that at document 8. 14 At document 8, seventy-two (72) hours 15 after the man is interviewed, and no -- and less than a 16 week after it comes to their attention, a superintendent 17 who's name has been blacked out, has already determined 18 what the appropriate penalty is, and on that same day, 19 and you'll see it, the next page, Detective Sergeant 20 Whitehead signs off on his informal discipline. 21 Now, this officer, who has made racist 22 utterances while performing his intelligence functions, 23 and might I add, the issue of poor intelligence gathering 24 lies as one of the central issues in this proceeding, 25 right?


1 This intelligence officer is dealt with 2 how? It constitutes, and you'll see it on the previous 3 page, document 8. 4 You see where the -- the August 1st, 2003 5 letter is put, the memorandum? I've confused it, but if 6 you back up, we're at document 8. 7 And you see something dated August 1st, 8 2003, Mr. Commissioner? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: You see, the 11 penalty consists of the following: 12 "The penalty position is informal 13 discipline consisting of twenty-four 14 (24) hours to be deducted from your 15 accumulated credits, attendance at a 16 four (4) day First Nations awareness 17 program to be conducted by First 18 Nations programs section. The cost of 19 this program will be at Force expense." 20 So, you participated in an intelligence 21 operation, you uttered disgusting racist remarks 22 concerning the subjects of the operation, and within less 23 than a week, you lose twenty-four (24) hours on your 24 credit system and you have to take a Native awareness 25 course for a few days.


1 That's appalling, and we don't know who 2 approved of this, because all those names have been 3 redacted. So -- and what is truly appalling is that it 4 would have happened in a blink of an eye. 5 That is, it -- you can talk about speedy 6 justice being good, but I say here, speedy justice is 7 highly suspect. And that July 25th to August 1st, 2003 8 tells you one thing, with respect, Mr. Commissioner. 9 There was an effort to put this away as 10 quickly as possible. That is the only inference to draw. 11 Now, you will recall the evidence before 12 you, and I've printed these out just as a copy that 13 you'll have available to you, and it's all to be gleaned 14 from Exhibit P-1005. You'll find all of this, for the 15 record, in Exhibit P-1005. 16 But my examination of then Solicitor 17 General Runciman on the issue of the appropriate -- Madam 18 Court Reporter has trained me very well -- my -- I just 19 moved the mic. My examination of then Solicitor General 20 Runciman on the appropriateness of informal discipline is 21 something worth nothing at this stage. And you'll find - 22 - you'll find the relevant passages starting at pages 29 23 through 36 on my examination dated January 11th, 2006. 24 And I'm going to take you just to some 25 brief passages that review the contents of Exhibit P-


1 1005. I'm not as interested in -- in the Solicitor 2 General's answers as I am in the provisions. This was a 3 fast way to take you to what I was bringing to your 4 attention that day, on January 11th. 5 If you have page 29 in front of you, which 6 is the first page of the package, line 20: 7 "Q: Are you familiar with the fact 8 that the course of action adopted by 9 the Ontario Provincial Police in 10 respect to the mugs and T-shirts 11 affair, was to proceed by way of 12 informal discipline. 13 A: Yes." 14 Now this -- there's true irony in that, of 15 course, because the Commission and Counsel were under the 16 misunderstanding that the T-shirts attracted informal 17 discipline, which they did not. And that the mugs 18 attracted informal discipline, which they did not. 19 That misunderstanding was shared by then 20 Solicitor General Runciman, who said, yes, he knew that 21 that's what happened and that was okay. So we all 22 operated on this strange artificiality. 23 Now having said that, it's what I asked 24 him about informal discipline that I'm bringing to you 25 attention, which is page 30, the second page in, line 17:


1 "Would you agree with me that the 2 definition used by the Ontario 3 Provincial Police by way of policy for 4 informal discipline is, quote [and this 5 is from P-10-05], quote, 'A corrective 6 action that may be taken in relation to 7 a complaint that does not involve 8 allegations of a serious nature.'" 9 And then you'll see, Mr. Commissioner, 10 that they actually define what is misconduct of a serious 11 nature at page 32, 33. I don't know if this sounds 12 familiar, what -- what I went through with Mr. Runciman; 13 line 21, page 32: 14 "Q: Could you please turn to the 15 definition of misconduct of a serious 16 nature? In the same package that I 17 handed you there's definition of 18 misconduct of a serious nature. Could 19 you turn to definition? 20 A: I'm there. 21 Under the title, Misconduct of a 22 Serious Nature, 'An allegation that an 23 employee has [and it's the third] 24 engaged in conduct which may adversely 25 affect the reputation of the OPP or the


1 morale of its employees.'" 2 Now, intelligence officers proposing to do 3 doughnuts on the burial grounds of occupiers, 4 intelligence officers while in the course of their duties 5 referring to occupiers as big fat fucking Indians, if 6 that is not (a) bringing the service into discredit, I 7 don't know what is. 8 And (b) -- and I -- and I'm not winding up 9 to be dramatic but I do want to emphasize this, and I'm 10 quite concerned, notwithstanding whether these exact 11 words were in place, because while Ms. Tuck-Jackson or 12 Mr. Sandler has raised to my attention that P-1005 might 13 be slightly different, nobody has actually provided what 14 the exact definition of informal discipline was at the 15 time. 16 But we do know this: All of the things 17 that happened in terms of the discipline meted out for 18 Whitehead and Dyke, happened in July and August of 2003. 19 That is, whatever definitions people may be confused 20 about -- the Commissioner at the time was Commissioner 21 Gwen Boniface, what has happened is the OPP has declared 22 before you countless times that they are new and have 23 changed and are improved. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And I'm -- I'm


1 making a point here which is -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- informal 4 discipline for this conduct is appalling and that it 5 didn't go through much of a consideration. It's proof by 6 virtue of the speed. 7 And what I want to emphasize to you, Mr. 8 Commissioner, is that if we don't learn the decision -- 9 the investigative and decision-making apparatus that led 10 to this speedy form of informal justice, then we don't 11 excavate. And if we don't excavate, we don't heal. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much, Mr. Falconer. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I -- I have just a 15 quick list I need to consult to make sure there was no 16 other very small point I needed to bring to your 17 attention. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I ask you, in 22 making your decision on this issue, Mr. Commissioner, 23 that you have regard to a -- an interesting configuration 24 of events, in and around the very time that 25 investigations and decisions concerning whether or not


1 the allegedly racist conduct involving the mugs and T- 2 shirts was racist, was problematic and deserved 3 discipline. 4 That would have been around the same time 5 that officers from the Ontario Provincial Police, 6 according to them, in pursuit of their duties, were 7 assisting the Ken Deane defence team, whether it's the 8 Skinner demo or the other examples you've heard. 9 So -- so in terms of public perception, 10 right now you have an OPP that helps Deane on his defence 11 and basically does a tremendously shoddy job 12 investigating racist conduct, all happening together and 13 at once. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I ask you to 18 consider that options, options in respect of police 19 officer Whitehead included demotion, suspension, 20 hearings, all of those things were options that the OPP 21 in 2003 could have taken pursuant to the 1995 22 legislation. They made a decision in the year 2003 to 23 deal with it the way they did and so they're accountable 24 not just for 1995, they're accountable for 2003. 25 And it's for all those reasons we say it's


1 not enough to simply say, Well, hopefully they're fixing 2 it now that we've brought the new T-shirt to their 3 attention. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: We have to step in 6 and excavate and -- and that's what we encourage you to 7 do. I thank you for your patience. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 9 Mr. Falconer. Is anybody else speaking in support of 10 this motion? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 15 you have two (2) lines? 16 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I have three (3) 17 sentences, Mr. Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Three (3) 19 sentences? 20 21 PRESENTATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 22 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I'll be very brief. 23 Mr. Commissioner, the Estate and Family of 24 Dudley George strongly support the motion. It is painful 25 for the family to deal with these items because they


1 almost seem as if they celebrate the death of a man, a 2 man who was their brother. 3 However, the Estate and Family have also 4 always said it is important to find out the underlying 5 truth and to deal with it in order for true healing to 6 occur and for lessons to be learned as well and they view 7 this motion as an important step to achieve these goals. 8 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 10 Mr. Alexander. Now, I presume either the OPP or the OPPA 11 wish to speak contrary to this motion? Whichever order 12 or are both of you speaking? 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: We just decided the 14 order. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 16 Roland...? 17 18 PRESENTATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, the 20 order, the part of the order that I'm concerned with is 21 paragraph 1 Sub 2 -- 2(I), the paragraph directed to the 22 OPPA. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Paragraph 1, 24 Sub 2 -- 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: (I)? Yes. 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. And then as well 3 paragraph 2 and paragraph 3. 4 Let me deal with paragraph 2 and paragraph 5 3 first. You will recall that you made a -- a ruling 6 with respect to the admissibility, the compelability and 7 admissibility of the discipline records subject to 8 reviewing the records by your Counsel and you that they 9 were admissible. 10 And there was extensive submissions put 11 to you leading up to that ruling that they weren't, that 12 they were not admissible, that they were -- there was a 13 statutory privilege that governed them and following your 14 ruling we requested that you state a case and we indeed 15 provided you with a draft stated case. 16 The document as Ms. Vella pointed out in 17 her comments of February 6th, 2006, before you publicly 18 made was that upon a review of the documents and upon 19 discussions with the OPP, the OPPA, and the Province, a 20 resolution was struck on how to deal with these documents 21 and the resolution was that they would go in on -- in the 22 form that they've gone in on the consent of the parties. 23 Now, that was a resolution in the face of 24 what was going to be as you indicated and as Ms. Vella 25 indicated a potentially protracted litigation in the form


1 of a stated case to the Divisional Court and perhaps to 2 the Court of Appeal. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: And a settlement was 5 reached, an agreement was reached, and we've honoured 6 that agreement as has the Commission. What -- what Mr. 7 Falconer and his compatriots come before you now asking 8 you to do is to -- to dishonour that agreement, to 9 disclose information that is -- that has been redacted by 10 agreement out of those documents and to now have that 11 information disclosed. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 13 minute. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, 15 this is isn't about reply. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 17 think -- 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: My Friend has to 19 put on the record because you repeated an agreement of 20 the parties and anyone hearing would think that we had 21 agreed -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- to these 24 redactions. It shouldn't -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.


1 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Roland 2 shouldn't talk about dishonouring the agreement because 3 he should be making it clear that we never made such an 4 agreement. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 6 understand. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm sorry, I didn't mean 8 to imply -- 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- that you'd made 11 agreement, it was an agreement as I thought -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it was 13 an agreement. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- between the Province, 15 the -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- OPP, and the OPPA who 18 -- who are -- have the particular statutory interests -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- in what can be done-- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm aware of 22 that. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- with these documents. 24 And so I say, sir, that that -- having made that, having 25 made that agreement and having them put in, if you -- if


1 you are willing to entertain Mr. Falconer's Motion in any 2 event, then I ask you to state a case before the -- back 3 before the Divisional Court. 4 We made it clear that this was -- with 5 this settlement was without prejudice to our rights to go 6 forward with the stated case and it was on the basis of 7 this -- this agreement amongst the parties I've named; 8 the OPP, the OPPA and the Province, and the Commission, 9 that these documents were put in, in the form that they 10 have been tendered. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: And so, that's what I 13 say about that. That's, I think, the whole -- all I need 14 to say about those documents. 15 That was the agreement struck and if 16 you're -- if you enter -- are prepared to enter -- 17 positively entertain Mr. Falconer's Motion then I ask 18 that you then state the case and we'll deal with this as 19 we were going to, in the first instance, in the 20 Divisional Court. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, the 22 decis -- 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: There is considerable 24 detrimental reliance on this. We agreed -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.


1 MR. IAN ROLAND: We gave a consent to -- 2 to introduce a good amount of material, but we, on our 3 position that we were going to take before the Divisional 4 Court, we didn't have to put before you at all. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. And 6 the subsequent revelations or subsequent information 7 that's come to light -- 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: It doesn't affect -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- doesn't 10 change your position. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: It doesn't change -- and 12 it doesn't change the -- the legal position, either. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: So I deal with that -- 15 those matters in that way. Dealing with 1(2), I observe 16 this, sir, that the OPPA has been and intends to continue 17 to be, co-operative with this Inquiry. 18 We have provided all kinds of co-operation 19 to this Inquiry, to Commission Counsel, to facilitate 20 your process. 21 We've, as requested -- witnesses that 22 have come -- that have been brought before this Inquiry, 23 we have provided information; we've provided documents; 24 we've provided a great deal of -- level of co-operation 25 and we intend to continue to do so.


1 What this request made of you focusses on 2 -- upon is the -- is a request for you to order the OPP 3 to formally notify its members of an obligation to deal 4 with and preserve certain memorabilia, mementos or 5 souvenirs related to the events of the Ipperwash. 6 I say, sir, with great respect, and with 7 respect to Mr. Falconer, that you have no such statutory 8 power to do so. 9 And we're not -- the OPPA that is, my 10 client is not in the obligate -- is not in the position 11 and doesn't accept any obligation to be your 12 investigator, to be part of your investigative arm. 13 We... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm corrected, it's not 18 the -- it's the OPPA, not the OPP. 19 The OPPA is not part of your investigative 20 arm. We will co-operate as we have, with this process, 21 but it is not our role, the OPPA's role as an association 22 representing it's members to go out and investigate 23 matters that are before this Inquiry. 24 We will respond, if we have some documents 25 that are -- or items that are -- that have come into our


1 possession that are relevant we will provide them as we 2 have, to Commission Counsel, and if Commission Counsel 3 requests us to provide information or documents with 4 respect to witnesses coming before it, we will seek out 5 that material as we have from witnesses. 6 But the OPPA has, I think, seven thousand 7 (7,000) Members, uniformed members, something like that 8 and I think there was something like -- there were 9 several hundred, at one (1) stage or other, involved with 10 Ipperwash and we are -- we neither have nor are we 11 willing to, nor do we intend to, go out and canvass those 12 members about anything. 13 We will respond to requests from your 14 counsel and we will co-operate, as your Counsel decides, 15 what witnesses are important to be called before you. 16 Now, in that process, your investigation 17 has been successful. It's successfully revealed the fact 18 that there is another T-shirt. 19 It's worked as it's -- as it was intended. 20 That has come forward as a result of a witness who's been 21 brought before this Inquiry who indicated that he had a 22 T-shirt and he produced the T-shirt. 23 You have the T-shirt. You don't need any 24 other T-shirts. You are going to have called before -- 25 and the parties have been informed of this, the person


1 who created the T-shirt, who can speak about the T-shirt. 2 He can speak about the details around the creation of the 3 T-shirt. 4 You have all the information that you need 5 for your purposes to address that -- the issue of that T- 6 shirt. There is no evidence of any other -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 8 I was going to ask you. Go ahead. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: There's no evidence of 10 any other memorabilia. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or other T- 12 shirts. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Or other T-shirts. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 15 satisfied that -- 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: There is no indication-- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's no 18 indication that there are any other T-shirts. 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- of any other 20 memorabilia. Now, what I'm not prepared to do and my 21 client is not prepared to do is go out there and try and 22 find other memorabilia. That's not our role. 23 That's -- if you see that as your role, 24 your investigative role, you have summons power and you 25 have investigative power through search warrants, you can


1 exercise that. We're not your investigators. 2 But from the witnesses that have -- have 3 been prepared, that have come before you, I think there's 4 some twenty (20) OPPA witnesses, and the witnesses yet to 5 come, we have had no indication of any other memorabilia, 6 at all. 7 So I say with great respect that the order 8 that's sought is an -- is not an order that's within your 9 jurisdiction. And it's not an order that my client is 10 prepared to -- to agree to do voluntarily, it's not its 11 role being your investigator. 12 It will cooperate with your process and it 13 will facilitate your process as -- as the Commission 14 decides on the witnesses it's calling. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: And if -- if you -- if 17 you agree to issue an order as requested, then 18 unfortunately we're going to have to again challenge your 19 jurisdiction on that because I don't see that it's there 20 in the statutory scheme at all. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: I -- I hate to have to 23 say that, I don't -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No -- 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- don't take it as a


1 threat. It isn't a threat. It's just the reality of 2 what I see as the statutory scheme and my client's 3 obligations. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 5 Mr. Roland. 6 Do you have anything to say, Ms. Tuck- 7 Jackson? 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I do, Mr. 9 Commissioner. Good evening. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 evening. 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I'm going to -- 13 to break my submissions into two (2) parts, sir. First 14 of all, I'm going to address the relevance of the 15 information sought and then I'm going to address the 16 legality of the order sought. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 18 Before you do that, can you give me some indication of 19 how long your submission may take? 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Approximately 21 fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much. 24 25 PRESENTATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON:


1 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: The application 2 before you, sir, has been prompted by the revelation of 3 the existence of a second T-shirt, which was generated 4 following the events of September the 6th. 5 The originer -- originator, excuse me, of 6 that T-shirt has now been identified for the Part 1 7 parties to the Inquiry. Your Counsel, sir, has indicated 8 that the Commission intends to call that individual to 9 testify before this Inquiry, perhaps as early as the week 10 of June the 5th. 11 In addition, as you know, sir, 12 Commissioner O'Grady and Commissioner Boniface will be 13 testifying before this Inquiry in June. They may be 14 questioned as to decisions made regarding discipline for 15 the creation, the sale, the distribution of Ipperwash- 16 related memorabilia, including matters affecting this 17 additional T-shirt. 18 And as My Friend, Mr. Faulkner has spent 19 considerable time on the issue of Officers Dyke and 20 Whitehead, it is also, in my respectful submission, quite 21 clear that Commissioner Boniface can again be questioned 22 as to discipline related to those officers. 23 In my respectful submission, sir, all the 24 information that you, in your capacity as Commissioner, 25 need regarding that second T-shirt to assist you in your


1 mandate and in particular to guide you with respect to 2 the recommendations that you must make, can be obtained 3 through those three (3) witnesses. 4 I respectfully urge you, Mr. Commissioner, 5 to bear in mind that it is beyond the scope of your 6 mandate to inquire into the thoroughness of the 7 investigation that was commenced in the fall of 1995 and 8 concluded in January of 1996. It is simply beyond your 9 mandate, sir. 10 On February the 6th of this year you 11 accepted the recommendation of your Counsel as to the 12 appropriateness of the redacted records, which form 13 Exhibits P-1051 through to 1053 and, in my respectful 14 submission to you, sir, there is no material change in 15 circumstances before you that ought to cause you to 16 reconsider the correctness of that ruling. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: So accordingly, 21 in my respectful submission, the information that you 22 require to meet your mandate will be forthcoming. 23 It is not necessary and indeed, it is 24 irrelevant, to go behind the ruling and re-visit it, that 25 you made in respect of Exhibits 1051 to 1053. It's


1 simply irrelevant to go any further. 2 With respect to the legality of the Orders 3 sought by the Applicants, first of all an Order is sought 4 that you direct the OPP to order all of its officers to 5 preserve and surrender any examples of Ipperwash-related 6 memorabilia. 7 Sir, Commissioner Boniface, as the 8 Commissioner of the OPP, derives her authority from 9 subsection 17(2) of the Police Services Act. 10 It is very brief and I'm going to read it 11 to you, sir, if I may. It indicates that, quote: 12 "The Commissioner has the general 13 control and administration of the 14 Ontario Provincial Police and the 15 employees connected with it." 16 Unquote. That control is maintained by 17 her and other superior officers as a result of the 18 operation of the OPP Code of Conduct which is found in 19 Ontario Regulation 123/98. 20 That Code of Conduct provides in paragraph 21 2(b)(ii) that, quote: 22 "Any police officer commits misconduct 23 if he or she engages in insubordination 24 and that he or she, without lawful 25 excuse, disobeys, omits or neglects to


1 carry out any lawful order." 2 So my respectful submission to you, sir, a 3 key issue is whether it is lawful for a commanding 4 officer to require the preservation and/or the surrender 5 or production as the case may be, of the memorabilia in 6 question. 7 And it is my respectful submission that 8 while Commissioner Boniface can lawfully require the 9 preservation and surrender of OPP property, including 10 equipment; including notebooks, she can require the 11 generation and production of a duty report. 12 In my respectful submission to you, sir, 13 she has no lawful authority to require the preservation 14 and/or surrender of private property belonging to her 15 employees. 16 The memorabilia, sir, in question was 17 purchased by individual members and amounts to private 18 property. 19 Accordingly, you are being asked to make 20 an Order directing Commissioner Boniface to do something 21 that she has, in my respectful submission, no lawful 22 authority to do. 23 And accordingly, in my respectful 24 submission, it would be entirely inappropriate for you to 25 do that.


1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Furthermore, 5 sir, while I acknowledge that Section 6 of the Rules of 6 Practice and Procedure provide that the conduct of and 7 the procedure to be followed at this Inquiry is under 8 your control and direction, in my respectful submission, 9 that authority does not extend to making an Order, the 10 effect of which could interfere with an ongoing 11 investigation being conducted by the OPP. 12 And if you were to make the Order sought, 13 you could, in my respectful submission, be interfering 14 with an investigation which, as I've advised this 15 Commission, is ongoing. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 17 talking about the investigation you referred to last week 18 when these T-shirts -- 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I am, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- were 21 first discovered. 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not some 24 other investigation? 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No, sir. You


1 have also been asked to issue a summons to Commissioner 2 Boniface requiring the collection and production of the 3 subject memorabilia. A summons and it's trite law can 4 lawfully require an identified person to produce that 5 which is within his or her knowledge and control. 6 And to emphasize this point and 7 particularly in the context of what is required before 8 this Inquiry I want to quote if I might Rule 32 of the 9 Rules of Practice, excuse me, Procedure and Practice. 10 Under the heading, Documents, Rule 32 11 provides: 12 "The Commission expects all relevant 13 documents to be produced to the 14 Commission by any party with standing 15 where the documents are in the 16 possession, control, or power of the 17 party." 18 And my respectful submission, sir, to you 19 is that Commissioner Boniface is not in possession of the 20 items that My Friend -- Friends would seek that you have 21 summonsed and for the reasons outlined above she cannot 22 become in lawful possession of those items. And 23 accordingly in those circumstances it would be 24 inappropriate to issue the summons sought. 25 Those, sir, are my submissions to you


1 subject to any questions that you might have. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 Is Commission Counsel going to make any 8 submission now? No, they're not. I understand. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, Commission 10 Counsel's not going to make any submissions. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: But I have been asked 13 to put on the record that the -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Pardon? 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I have been asked to 16 put on the record that the remaining Aboriginal parties, 17 that is the Residents of Aazhoodena, the Kettle and Stony 18 Point First Nation, the Chiefs of Ontario, support the -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Support the 20 motion. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- motion but they 22 didn't seek to -- to take time to make submissions. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Yes, 24 Mr. Falconer? 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Could we have a


1 five (5) minute break? There's a matter that I need to 2 discuss with Mr. Rosenthal that pertains to what I say to 3 you, Mr. Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You -- 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Five (5) minutes is 6 all I'm asking. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I'll 8 give you five (5) minutes but where are we going from 9 here? 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Rosenthal -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have one 12 (1) reply? 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- and I we -- we 14 each have reply. We'll be together no more than fifteen 15 (15) minutes. It'll be fast. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 17 We'll take a five (5) minute break. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for five (5) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 6:32 p.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 6:44 p.m. 23 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: We can do without 4 George for this part. I don't think there's going to be 5 any exhibits, right? There's not going to be anymore 6 exhibits, are there? 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Not -- not from me. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, okay. 9 So we'll carry on. 10 11 REPLY BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. Mr. 13 Commissioner, the response by the OPPA and the OPP 14 underlines the essential nature of the motion that is 15 before you. It is quite astonishing that they make those 16 responses in the light of what's happened. 17 Mr. Roland tells us his position has not 18 changed. The position that he expressed on the record on 19 21 April 2006, there's no obligation at all, there's no 20 obligation for him to produce private property to this 21 Public Inquiry, contrary to the obligations we were all 22 told about. 23 Every party was told at the beginning of 24 this Inquiry and it's written in the rules, we have 25 obligations to produce any relevant evidence, but Mr.


1 Roland's party claims not to have that obligation. 2 And he tells us that the Inquiry 3 successfully revealed another T-shirt. Yeah, after 4 eleven (11) years, and accidentally. 5 What other T-shirts are out there? What 6 else is out there? Mr. Roland has a responsibility on 7 behalf of his party to produce all relevant evidence, 8 including any other memos or T-shirts. He says there's 9 no evidence of any other T-shirt. 10 Well, a month ago would he have told us 11 there's no evidence of any other T-shirt except for one 12 (1), or did he know about the second one (1)? What's 13 going on here? He doesn't have any responsibility to 14 produce anything? 15 Now, he says if you make any of these 16 orders he's going to challenge jurisdiction. He's 17 threatening to go to court again. He cannot blackmail 18 the Commission. 19 You have clear authority under the rules 20 and procedure to require parties to produce documents. 21 You have clear authority under Section 7 of the Public 22 Author-- of the Public Inquiries Act to summons any 23 relevant evidence. 24 And we added that additional part of the 25 motion in order to give you further statutory authority.


1 You could just issue a summons to all OPP officers and to 2 especially Commissioner Boniface and all officers that 3 they must produce that material. 4 They want to challenge that summons? Let 5 them take it to court, Mr. Commissioner. We can't be 6 blackmailed. 7 Similarly, we were told on behalf of the 8 OPP that Commissioner Boniface does not have the power to 9 secure these materials. Well, if she doesn't have the 10 power to secure these materials, Mr. Commissioner, her 11 investigation will be a sham, just like the previous 12 investigation. 13 And that underlines then the necessity of 14 your obtaining these materials. You have sufficient 15 legal authority under the Public Inquiries Act and under 16 the rules of this Commission, and I would respectfully 17 request you exercise that authority. 18 And -- not to threaten but -- frankly if 19 you don't do something about this I will have to seek 20 instructions about judicial reviewing a decision to leave 21 this as it is. 22 We cannot let the OPP investigate itself, 23 especially given the position that they're taking at this 24 point, Mr. Commissioner. Subject to any questions you 25 have those would be my submissions.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Mr. Rosenthal. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 REPLY BY MR. JULIAN FACONER: 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, 8 on behalf of Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto I 9 always -- I can say I always find it regrettable to 10 address an Adjudicator about instructions in respect of 11 judicial reviews or fields. 12 In my respectful submission it is an 13 inappropriate position to take in front of an Adjudicator 14 and I -- I really regret that Mr. Roland's submission 15 puts us in the position it does. 16 And I think Mr. Rosenthal had absolutely 17 no choice to indicate what his instructions were and I 18 echo those. And I only do it because the only 19 appropriate thing to do is in response to a party who 20 says if you don't do "X" I'll do "Y". 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: As the other side 23 of the "X" and "Y" equation you have to make it clear -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That -- 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- that your client


1 is as committed as his client but isn't that sad -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- to be addressing 4 an Adjudicator in that disrespectful fashion. So in my 5 submission leave it at this. 6 My client is as committed and as devoted 7 to these issues as Mr. Roland's is and if proving that is 8 putting those kinds of inappropriate submissions on the 9 record then I'll do it but I don't like it. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And in my 12 submission it -- it's gainsaid that we all get 13 instructions to deal with matters if appropriate. I just 14 -- I wish Mr. Roland hadn't put us in this position. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 16 Mr. Falconer. Move on to the substance of your response. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The substances of 18 my response is that with respect on April 13th, 2006, I 19 repeated to your Counsel in writing that we did not 20 agree -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- to editing out 23 the investigative apparatus. I raised that issue on the 24 day we were advised in February. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.


1 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I raised it on 2 April 13th in writing and I have yet to get a response 3 and in telling me as Mr. Roland and Ms. Tuck-Jackson say, 4 Well, Commission made a deal so parties who were the -- 5 who were the -- who are affected or in any way were 6 moving parties on this because I don't need to remind 7 you, Mr. Commissioner, it was Aboriginal Legal Services 8 of Toronto that was the moving party on this issue. They 9 aren't involved. 10 Well, my client feels that he is as 11 entitled to be a party in these proceedings as anyone 12 else and with respect it is not true that the OPPA can 13 engineer secrecy and get away with it and with respect 14 that's what they're doing. 15 You see, Mr. Commissioner, and I want to 16 put this on the record in plain terms. My client's 17 response to Mr. Roland's submission and Ms. Tuck- 18 Jackson's submission is that nowhere in the Police 19 Services Act and the Code of Conduct or indeed the Public 20 Inquiries Act has it ever been meant that people in 21 charge, statutorily in charge or informally involved in 22 conducting investigations get to keep their names secret. 23 It simply doesn't exist as a rule or 24 promise of confidentiality. It is utterly absurd. What 25 would they have to hide from and why would they threaten


1 you with judicial review if you reveal who they are? 2 That is offensive and -- and I say with respect, Mr. 3 Commissioner, it is not in keeping with the integrity of 4 your process to give in to that kind of interim argument. 5 On the issue of Ms. Tuck-Jackson's 6 submission, Ms. Tuck-Jackson's usually very careful to 7 provide the documentary support for her submission and I 8 was -- I thought I missed something because I didn't get 9 any paper but then I realized the reason I didn't get any 10 paper explaining how Commissioner Boniface can't order 11 the production of the memorabilia is because there is no 12 rule that says she can't. There's no rule at all. 13 Ms. Tuck-Jackson simply looked at you and 14 said she's not allowed. She didn't give you a rule that 15 says she's not allowed, she didn't give you a case that 16 says she's not allowed, she just got up and said she's 17 not allowed. Well, Ms. Tuck-Jackson knows and I know 18 that you're governed by law. 19 Now, if there is a case or a rule that 20 restricts or permits officers to maintain racist 21 memorabilia in commemoration of a -- of an operation like 22 Ipperwash in the face of an inquiry looking into this 23 issue then present it. But if she doesn't have one,(1) 24 the bare assertion that Commissioner Boniface isn't 25 allowed without more isn't very compelling.


1 I say to you, Mr. Commissioner, it comes 2 down to this. Whether it's the role of Commissioner 3 Boniface to make such a direction to her officers or your 4 role to insist that parties who are participating in the 5 process and have the right to participate fulfill their 6 responsibilities to preserve and provide whatever 7 relevant evidence they have it doesn't really matter, in 8 the end it's the same thing. It's the flip side of the 9 same coin. 10 The reason these obligations are triggered 11 is because they decided to be parties in this process. 12 Now, Mr. Roland says, we're not going to 13 go out and be your investigator for you. 14 Well, you know what that's code for? 15 That's code for, there might be something else out there, 16 but you better go find it, because we're not going to do 17 it. 18 And then Mr. Roland made another 19 interesting submission to you, which I found was -- was 20 extremely in keeping with his very careful, articulate 21 and acute mind. 22 He said, I have canvassed each of the 23 people that are going to be witnesses in this proceeding, 24 and I'm satisfied. 25 Each of the people that are going to be


1 witnesses. Well, we've just now ascertained that there 2 are some seventy-five (75) to hundred (100) officers who 3 haven't been canvassed, because they're not going to be 4 witnesses, who may well have the memorabilia. 5 But Mr. Roland hasn't canvassed them and 6 he has no intention of looking under rocks he doesn't 7 want to see. 8 So, he carefully said, yes, if they're 9 coming to testify you -- before you, Mr. Commissioner, if 10 they're coming here and I know Falconer and Roy or Mr. 11 Millar, or Ms. Vella or Mr. Worme they're going to ask 12 them about it, so yes, I'll be asking them about it 13 beforehand, before they get here. 14 But he doesn't tell us anything about the 15 officers that aren't going to testify, or the officers 16 that were involved after September 6th, who aren't 17 witnesses to the operation. 18 And what I say to you, Mr. Commissioner, 19 is that is not excavating. That's called scratching the 20 surface and -- and Mr. Rosenthal dealt with the point 21 that it's very little comfort to tell us that a T-shirt 22 was discovered this late in the process and isn't that 23 comforting? 24 That's not comfort at all. 25 My client feels passionate about this for


1 one (1) simple reason, Mr. Commissioner. Racism is an 2 evil to be dealt with and stamped out. 3 And it's not an evil to be run from. 4 Right now, with great respect, Mr. Commissioner, blacking 5 out all of the names of the people in charge of 6 excavating and investigating the truth on behalf of the 7 OPP, and leaving them blacked out is running from the 8 truth. 9 We have to -- we have to pursue the truth. 10 And the fact that Mr. Roland can't or Ms. Tuck-Jackson 11 won't, isn't enough. 12 See, Mr. Roland, if he needs to contact 13 his members to tell them about the new overtime pay, he 14 has this mechanism. 15 All of a sudden, seven thousand (7,000) or 16 eight thousand (8,000) members all get a newsletter. If 17 he needs to call them in for a vote, he has his way. 18 All of a sudden, seven thousand (7,000) 19 members get a notice of a vote. 20 But when he needs to tell them, by the 21 way, we're a party on the Commission. If you have 22 anything to do with Ipperwash, well now you have to do 23 the investigation. 24 There's something wrong there. Our relief 25 simply asks him to notify the membership about their


1 obligations as a party, because they chose -- the OPPA 2 through their board, chose to be a party. 3 And as for Commissioner Boniface, with 4 great respect, shame on her for not ordering, just as 5 we've asked, without a Motion. 6 She should order her members and there is 7 no reason we should have to go through this. She should 8 simply order her Members to produce any memorabilia. 9 It's not complicated. Thank you, Mr. 10 Commissioner. Those are my submissions. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 12 Mr. Falconer. 13 Now, it's almost seven o'clock. We're 14 going to adjourn for the day. I know that it's important 15 to produce a ruling, a decision, quickly, but I'm here 16 all day, every day this week and it's just not possible, 17 much as I might like to. 18 But I will do -- I will make every effort 19 to produce it sometime during our week off next week. 20 So thank you very much and we will now 21 adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 23 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday May the 24th, at 9:00 24 a.m. 25


1 --- Upon adjourning at 6:56 p.m. 2 3 4 5 Certified Correct 6 7 8 9 10 ___________________________ 11 Carol Geehan 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25