11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 19th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) 19 Erin Tully ) (np) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) (np) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 7 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 219 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-434 Document number 1009045. Press 4 release Sept 06/95, 1:46 p.m. 10 5 P-435 Document number 1009043. OPP 6 press release Sept 06/95, 11:06 a.m. 11 7 P-436 Inquiry Document 1011798. Sept 06/95, 8 16:07 Fax from J.F. Carson, Acting 9 Superintendent Incident Commander to 10 Mr. Tim McCabe, Ministry of the Attorney 11 General, Crown Law, re. occupants of 12 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 20 13 P-437 Reserved 75 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon Commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 8 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 morning. Good Morning. Good morning, Deputy. 13 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, Deputy 15 Carson. 16 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 17 18 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: If I could take you back to the 20 logger notes, yesterday we dealt with the call from 21 Inspector Hutchinson. And before we go on, there are in 22 that little red folder that's over there somewhere 23 there's some more press releases and there's a press 24 release that's a short one -- there are three (3) that I 25 wanted to refer to.
81 Now, there's one (1) released to public; 2 it's got September 6, 1912. It's Inquiry Document 3 10099042. 4 Do you see --it looks like this one; it's 5 got some handwriting on the bottom. It should be right 6 at the top, actually, or the third one in. It's Inquiry 7 Document 1009042? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And, this appears to be a press 10 release that was faxed from the OPP detachment on 11 September 6th at 9:12. Do you see the fax line at the 12 top? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, is this a press release that was 15 issued by the Ontario Provincial Police? 16 A: I -- I don't believe so. I believe 17 this was faxed -- the note on the bottom -- this is a 18 release given to the public and I think it's a fax from 19 Les Kobayashi to Peter Sturdy, I believe, but it was 20 probably done at our detachment. So I'm not -- I'm not 21 sure that that went out -- it doesn't appear to have the 22 format of our normal press releases. 23 Q: Okay. So, you're not sure that that 24 one went out? 25 A: No. Sergeant Babbitt would have to
91 speak to that. 2 Q: Okay. I'll ask Sergeant Babbitt. 3 Then, there's -- the next document in that list; it's 4 Inquiry Document 1009045. And it has on it, "OPP Media 5 Ipperwash September 6th, 1995 1:46 p.m." 6 And, do you recognize that press release? 7 A: Document 1109045? 8 Q: Well, you may be looking at -- yeah, 9 let me just... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Thank you. 14 Q: It's Inquiry Document 1009045 for 15 release September 6th and. At the bottom you will see: 16 "From OPP media Ipperwash, September 17 6th, 1995, 1:46 p.m."? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And, that's a media release that was 20 issued by the Ontario Provincial Police? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And, that refers to the removal of 23 the picnic tables on the morning at 8:30 a.m.? 24 A: That's correct 25 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next
101 exhibit, please? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-434, Your Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-434. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-434: Document number 1009045. 6 Press release Sept 06/95, 7 1:46 p.m. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Then, the next release in this series 11 is simply a release dated September 6th, 1995 and it's, 12 again, from OPP media Ipperwash, September 6th, 1996 at 13 11:06. 14 And it simply is a notice that the media 15 centre was being relocated from the Forest Legion to the 16 Pinery Provincial Park on September 6th? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And, that was sent out? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Perhaps we'll mark that the next 21 exhibit? 22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1009043? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. Document 24 1009043. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-435, Your Honour.
111 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-435. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, for the benefit 3 of My Friends, I apologize, the last one was 1009045. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-435: Document number 1009043. OPP 6 press release Sept 06/95, 7 11:06 a.m. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Then, if we could take you -- go back 11 to the logger notes at page 63, there's a discussion at 12 15:55 with respect to the crew of the tanks. 13 And it's referred to as 'tanks' but are 14 you referring to tanks or the light armoured vehicles? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: The light armoured vehicles? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And then there's a discussion again 19 at the bottom of the page about the concrete blocks? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And there's -- can you tell us, 22 there's a reference about: 23 "John Carson states we have to talk 24 about this. John Carson wants to know 25 if we ourselves will be hampered by the
121 barriers." 2 Can you just tell us about that? What was 3 your concern and what was the discussion? 4 A: Well, just from an operational 5 perspective and particularly from a tactical point of 6 view that I wanted a discussion, particularly with the 7 Staff Sergeant Skinner, who's the TRU leader, to take a 8 look at the -- the point whether or not installing 9 barriers at some point in time could have an adverse 10 affect on our ability to do some operations that may be 11 necessary. 12 Q: And just so that we understand the 13 area that you're talking about, this is an aerial 14 photograph that Mr. Emery is here to assist us today. 15 And it shows on the right, the Ipperwash Provincial Park 16 now as we know from the discussion when the emergency 17 medical people well are here and these maps were used 18 that this is an aerial photograph from 2003 so that the 19 area has changed a bit since then. 20 But can you tell us -- this Army Camp 21 Road, you can see it says, Army Camp Road, running north. 22 The road curves to East Parkway Drive, the road runs 23 north in through what has been referred in these 24 proceedings as the sandy parking lot down to the beach 25 and to the lake.
131 On this photograph the Ipperwash 2 Provincial Park is to the right in the northeast quadrant 3 of this image. And can you tell us -- there's a -- 4 should be laser pointer on the desk, could you point out, 5 Deputy Carson, where you wanted these blocks placed in 6 this area? 7 A: It would -- it would be down at this 8 end here where there could be vehicular access into this 9 area of the Provincial Park. 10 So, it would be right on, basically on 11 this black line. 12 Q: Down but on the beach? 13 A: Right. At the end of the -- where 14 the fencing stops. 15 Q: And perhaps we could just make a note 16 of that. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 I just want to make sure that -- that's 21 where you intended to have them put, they were never put 22 there? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Then the -- there's a discussion; 25 Kent Skinner's in the command post at this time?
141 A: I believe so, yes. 2 Q: And so the discussion was that the 3 blocks be placed on Tuesday, September 7th? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: Then at 16:02 there's a discussion 6 with respect to telephone lines for the -- down at the 7 MNR parking lot for the TOC van and one for the LIMA 2; 8 is that correct? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And, LIMA 2 as we know, was in the 11 St. John's Ambulance trailer? 12 A: Right, that's the Sergeant Team 13 Leader. 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: That's the Sergeant Team Leader for 16 ERT. 17 Q: Yes. And -- but the location where 18 LIMA 2 was, was in the St. John's Ambulance... 19 A: That -- that's correct. 20 Q: And, at this point in time in the 21 afternoon of September 6th, was the TRU team truck that 22 was used as the TRU team tactical operations centre, was 23 it stationed at the Ministry of Natural Resources parking 24 lot? 25 A: No, sir.
151 Q: And, was a landline simply going to 2 be installed ready for its use when it arrived? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: If it arrived? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: Then, there's a note at 16:04 with 7 respect to the landlines being operational by six o'clock 8 tonight. 9 And, do you know if those lines were 10 operational by six o'clock? 11 A: I don't believe they were. 12 Q: You don't believe they were? 13 A: Not to my knowledge. 14 Q: Then -- 15 A: I know later that evening we 16 certainly didn't have hard line capability in the TOC 17 van. 18 Q: Okay. Then, at approximately four 19 o'clock, 16:07, you call and leave a message for Tim 20 McCabe with respect to call you back? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And then, you -- at 16:12, Tim McCabe 23 calls you back and for the benefit of My Friends, it's 24 call number 40 and it's -- this short transcript is at 25 page -- Tab 45.
161 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 Tim MCCABE: and John CARSON 4 September 6, 1995 5 TIME: 16.06.03 hours 6 Track 3.wav 7 8 MCLEAN: Command Post Sgt. MCLEAN. 9 MCCABE: Oh Inspector ah CARSON please. 10 MCLEAN: May I ask who's calling please? 11 MCCABE: It's Tim MCCABE at the 12 MCLEAN: Yes Tim 13 MCCABE: Attorney Generals Office. 14 MCLEAN: Yep I spoke to last time I remember the 15 name just one second please. 16 CARSON: John CARSON. 17 MCCABE: Oh hello ah John it's Tim MCCABE in 18 Toronto. 19 CARSON: Yes yes yeah I just ah called back I just 20 want to confirm ah Detective as Sergeant 21 Mark WRIGHT. 22 MCCABE: Okay. 23 CARSON: Will be our ah representative tomorrow 24 morning. 25 MCCABE: Detective Sergeant Mark WRIGHT.
171 CARSON Yes. 2 MCCABE: Okay and he ah will be able to speak as 3 authoritatively to these things as as you 4 would be. 5 CARSON: Yeah that's right well just just to give 6 you a little background on em ah ah when 7 ah Natives ah took over CFB Ipperwash in 8 ah May ninety-three (93). 9 MCCABE: Right. 10 CARSON: Ah he was involved as with that incident 11 ah in conjunction with myself who was 12 Incident Commander at that time and as 13 he's been intimately involved in in that 14 whole um um process since May ninety-three 15 (39) a where my ah police involvement has 16 ah taken place. 17 MCCABE: All right. 18 CARSON: Including execution of search warrants ah 19 relative to ah ah shots fired at a 20 Military helicopter in August of that 21 year. 22 MCCABE: I see. 23 CARSON: So ah other than myself he's the only one 24 that has been involved to that degree. 25 MCCABE: Okay.
181 CARSON: And he's he's been intimately involved in 2 all aspects of this operation. 3 MCCABE: Right all right ah so um I can reach him 4 at this same number ah 5 CARSON: Yeah. 6 MCCABE: this evening. 7 CARSON: That's right ah he's ah he's working out 8 of the same location as I am. 9 MCCABE: Right. 10 CARSON: And ah he's not here right at the moment 11 but ah ah but the number you called me at 12 is is the way to get a hold of him. 13 MCCABE: Okay and that'll that'll be good all 14 through this evening too. 15 CARSON: Yeah like he he may be away for for dinner 16 or something but ah he'll certainly we'll 17 certainly have contact get back to him 18 immediately. 19 MCCABE: Oh okay. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 MCCABE: So it's eight (8) o'clock ah we're on at 22 nine (9) o'clock. 23 CARSON: Right. 24 MCCABE: If he could meet with us at eight (8) 25 o'clock tomorrow at the ah court house in
191 Sarnia. I'm told that the ah the ah Crown 2 Attorney ah will let us in and and in fact 3 ah he's he's made available an officer a 4 room or something for us to have a a 5 conversation before court. 6 CARSON: Okay that's fine. 7 MCCABE: Yep. 8 CARSON: No problem at all and I'll I'll brief him 9 on the issues as I see it or or the 10 concerns that I have. 11 MCCABE: All right. 12 CARSON: Oh 13 MCCABE: and ah so we'll see him at eight (8) 14 o'clock in the morning. 15 CARSON: I appreciate that. 16 MCCABE: Right oh. 17 CARSON: Thank you. 18 MCCABE: Okay. 19 CARSON: Bye. 20 MCCABE: Bye bye. 21 22 End of conversation 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And at or about this time, the -- you
201 sent a letter to the -- Mr. McCabe. It signed by Mr. 2 Richardson on your behalf. If I could take you to Book 3 1, the large -- one of the large black binders there. 4 It's I -- it'll say on the front 'Book 1' 5 or the back 'Book 1' or 'Book 2'. If I could take you to 6 Tab 14; it's Inquiry Document 1011798. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And this is a letter dated September 9 6th, 1995 which has a fax header on it, OPP Forest Detach 10 Det -- D-E-T, I take it that's Detachment, September 6, 11 1995 at 16:07, and lists a number of names. 12 And was this letter sent under your 13 authority to Mr. McCabe? 14 A: Yes, it was. 15 Q: And the individuals identified -- the 16 twenty-six (26) individuals listed on the letter are the 17 individuals that had been identified as being on 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And perhaps we could mark that, 21 Commissioner, the next exhibit please. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-436, Your Honour 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 436. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-436: Inquiry Document 1011798.
211 Sept 06/95, 16:07 Fax from 2 J.F. Carson, Acting 3 Superintendent Incident 4 Commander to Mr. Tim McCabe, 5 Ministry of the Attorney 6 General, Crown Law, re. 7 occupants of Ipperwash 8 Provincial Park. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Then there's a note about having, at 12 16:15, about having the blocks taken to Pinery -- 13 concrete blocks taken to Pinery Park and not the TOC at 14 the MNR parking lot; is that correct? 15 That's at page 64. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And in these scribe notes there's a 18 number of references to Talk, T-A-L-K, but really what 19 it's referring is TOC, Tactical Operation Centre? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: Then at 16:16 there's a note, and 22 could you tell us about it? There's -- for a short 23 period of time Captain Doug Smith of the Canadian Army is 24 at the command post? 25 A: Yes, Smith returned to the command
221 post and indicated to me that he felt Les Jewells was 2 running things at the Park. There's really no leadership 3 there anymore. Wants to meet with Les Jewells possibly 4 on Friday. Wondered if we wanted anything brought up. 5 And I indicated that I would appreciate it 6 if he would just contact us in advance and if we had any 7 issues, we would certainly discuss it at time. 8 Q: And there's a note: 9 "John Carson really had no contact." 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And did Captain Smith indicate to you 12 or do you recall, the basis of his statement that Les 13 Jewells was running things at the Park? 14 A: I'm not sure if he had -- had a 15 direct discussion with Jewells or others but I know that 16 Smith had been on an ongoing basis in contact with people 17 at the built-up area of the Military Base in respect to 18 issues of maintenance. 19 So, I can only guess that this information 20 was as a result of that ongoing relationship he had there 21 to deal with the maintenance issues on the Base proper 22 that he's drawn these conclusions. 23 Q: And, you cannot recall whether he 24 said anything specifically as to the source of that 25 information?
231 A: I'm afraid I'm unable to do that. 2 Q: And, the logger notes has Jules 3 spelled, J-U-L-E-S, at -- but it's Jewell is J-E-W-E-L-L; 4 that's the person you're talking about? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Then -- and, if Captain Smith was -- 7 you believed, was speaking -- speaking to people at the 8 Army Camp about the maintenance at the Army Camp, why did 9 you not use Captain Smith to discuss -- ask Captain Smith 10 to discuss the OPP's position with his contacts at the 11 Army Camp to discuss with the people in the Park? 12 A: Well, because of the ongoing issue 13 with the Military Base itself, I certainly didn't want 14 occupiers to see or believe that there was a -- I'm not 15 sure if the right term's relationship, but that -- that 16 the OPP and the Military were working together towards 17 issues against the occupiers, that I -- I wanted to 18 certainly have it the appearance that the Military had 19 their business and we had our business. 20 Certainly, in retrospect, I certainly 21 probably could have used Captain Smith to, perhaps, 22 stimulate more information but I think it would be 23 inappropriate to try to use Captain Smith as an 24 intermediary, given his role and the position between 25 the land claim of the Military Base and -- and the
241 occupiers and -- and the Military's relationship; that I 2 wanted the OPP to be seen as independent from the 3 Military's issue with the Occupiers. 4 Q: Okay. And, did you think about -- 5 let me back up. 6 At this point in the afternoon of 7 September 6th, the position of the OPP was if -- was that 8 the occupiers would remain in the Park until there was an 9 injunction granted ordering the OPP to do something, from 10 the OPP's perspective? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And, so long as the occupiers stayed 13 in the Park, then the OPP was not going to go into the 14 Park -- 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: -- without a court order? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And, the OPP was -- at this point in 19 time, what was it's position with respect to the sandy 20 parking lot; and, this is at four o'clock on the 21 afternoon of September 6th? 22 A: Well, in -- in my view the sandy 23 parking lot is a very different issue than the Provincial 24 Park. Again, the Provincial Park is -- is under the 25 ownership of the Ministry of Natural Resources. Natural
251 Resources is in the process of getting an injunction 2 relative to that. 3 The sandy parking lot is -- at that time, 4 I believe, it was township or county property, I'm not 5 100 percent clear, however, it was a -- a separate issue 6 altogether. So, the -- the view was, as long as the 7 Occupiers stayed in the Park, the process would be 8 proceed with the injunction, stay the course, just 9 maintain the security in the area and for lack of a 10 better term, it's kind of business as usual. 11 The -- the parking lot was a -- a separate 12 issue. I believe we made the point in regards to the 13 picnic tables earlier in the day that we weren't prepared 14 to allow activity, criminal activity in particular, or -- 15 to deal with that. 16 It would an untenable situation, giving 17 its proximity to the cottages and the information we had 18 received up to that point about the cottages being next. 19 Q: And did you consider asking Captain 20 Smith to pass the message to the people at the Base that 21 if the occupiers stayed within the Park and did not come 22 out of the Park, that the OPP would not go into the Park? 23 A: No, I didn't -- I didn't think that 24 through. 25 Q: Okay. Then the blocks -- at 16:16
261 there's a note that blocks are being sent to -- they were 2 at Pinery Park and the idea was, at that point, to put 3 them in place the next morning at seven o'clock on 4 September the 7th? 5 A: Well there was some -- there had been 6 some discussion about putting them at the -- at the MNR 7 parking lot overnight, but I - I'd asked that they be 8 taken to the Pinery instead, and basically kept out of 9 sight, and then they'd placed in the following morning. 10 Q: Okay. And then there's a note, the 11 second paragraph of the note at 16:16 with respect to 12 security. What's that refer to? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Oh, I believe that was at the 17 Detachment in Forest. 18 Q: Okay. And the -- what was the 19 concern with respect to security at the Detachment in 20 Forest? 21 A: Just given all the activity that was 22 going on, we needed a couple of people there just to 23 ensure that anyone coming to the command post had a 24 business to be there, given it's a regular -- normally, 25 an operational Detachment, that we needed people to
271 direct them to Grand Bend, if necessary, or assist them 2 or if people come in to the command post to see me, they 3 weren't allowed to barge in to the command post. 4 Q: Okay. And then at 16:25 there's a 5 note, there had been a request for some additional 6 security, I see in the notes, with respect to Sarnia and 7 then there's a note at 16:25 that they wanted someone 8 familiar with the -- I take it, with the -- with the 9 occupiers? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there's a note: 12 "John Carson advised don't want to put 13 Constable George in that position." 14 And so you did not want to use Constable 15 George to identify people? 16 A: I didn't want him at the Court where 17 there was a potential for an altercation and that he 18 would be caught in the middle of it. 19 Q: Pardon me? 20 A: I didn't want him in Court, and if 21 there was some sort of a confrontation there during the 22 injunction hearing that would find Constable George in 23 the middle of -- of an altercation. 24 Q: The Les Kobayashi's back in the 25 command post at 16:29 and there's a discussion there with
281 respect to the affidavit and that Mark Wright will be 2 your -- the OPP spokesperson? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And a discussion about the blocks? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Then you ask about the list of 7 persons that we've just marked as Exhibit P-436? 8 A: Yes, Richardson indicated it had been 9 faxed. 10 Q: And then at the top of page 66 11 there's a note. Can you tell what that refers to; the 12 first paragraph; the trailer and cameras; the first two 13 (2) points on page 66? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I'm not sure what that discussion -- 18 which trailer we're speaking about. 19 Q: Okay. Then there's a note at 16:42: 20 "Mark Wright and Marg Eve returned from 21 the Park. A few people came and talked 22 to us." 23 And there's a note farther down at page -- 24 on that same page 16:44 with respect to the -- the 25 discussion. Can you tell us what you recall with respect
291 to what Marg Eve and Mark Wright told you? 2 A: Yes. Marg Eve and Mark Wright came 3 back to the command post and they talked about one (1) of 4 the vehicles down there that had MNR lights on it and 5 some discussion about arresting them for stolen vehicles. 6 And Mark Wright indicated he talked with 7 the First Nations person who was operating a vehicle with 8 Ontario license plates on it bearing 062-XCS and the 9 operator stated that they will settle this with guns. 10 Q: And did he tell you -- did he 11 identify the person, did he know the person? 12 A: I don't believe that he knew the name 13 of the person involved. 14 Q: Right. 15 A: I believe at some point in time, 16 perhaps Marg Eve did know the name. 17 Q: And do you have any recollection of 18 the name? 19 A: I'd have to check Marg Eve's notes 20 but I -- I can tell you what I believe it was. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: I believe it was Dudley George. 23 Q: Okay. And then what else was said? 24 A: Mark Wright and I had a discussion 25 about him appearing in Court tomorrow morning and that I
301 would discuss those details with Mark later. Mark Wright 2 indicated that Les Jewells was in the Park on a picnic 3 table but wouldn't talk to them. 4 And there was some discussion about the 5 media being there, women and children. I asked how many 6 kids were down there and he said four (4) to six (6). 7 They were playing in the area. 8 She -- Marg Eve indicated that a fourteen 9 (14) year old came up to her telling her that he wasn't 10 going to talk to them. She indicated that JP was his 11 name. And Mark Wright told him to go and tell the adults 12 that we want to talk to them. 13 He told -- he told him that and he had 14 left the area. I got a note here that Constable Evans 15 got a picture of the person who said that, We will settle 16 it with guns. 17 Q: And have you seen that picture? Do 18 you know who that picture -- where that picture is? 19 A: I don't believe I've seen it. 20 Q: Okay. Yes? 21 A: I had some discussion with Marg Eve 22 and suggested that when she's down there in uniform it 23 might be better if she removed the stripes from her 24 uniform so it wouldn't appear that she had -- that she 25 was a ranking officer.
311 And I indicated that she should go in in 2 plain clothes and jeans and just simply wear an outer 3 vest as opposed to going in uniform. I thought that 4 might create a more comfortable situation for -- for the 5 approach. 6 And that was about the contents of the 7 discussion as we made note of. 8 Q: And I can't recall was -- did Vince 9 George go down with them to the Park at this point? 10 A: I don't -- I don't believe so. 11 Q: It was just Mark Wright and Marg Eve? 12 A: That's -- that's my recollection. 13 Q: And did they tell you what the -- and 14 it's not in the notes, but did they tell you what the 15 mood in the Park was when they were down there? 16 Kid -- you said children were playing and 17 -- in the Park? 18 A: Well, at that point in time there was 19 a number of vehicles driving around and I -- I think, you 20 know, it was captured in -- in media coverage as well, 21 vehicles being driven around in an erratic manner, 22 particularly for the -- appeared for the benefit of our 23 officers were close by. 24 Q: So, that people were acting out, as 25 you say, for the benefit of the officers and perhaps for
321 the media when the officers were close by? 2 A: That -- that was my sense of it. 3 Q: And, that's not an unusual thing for 4 people at times to taunt police officers? 5 A: It does occur. 6 Q: And the -- with respect to the 7 reference, They will settle this with guns, did Mark 8 Wright or Marg Eve indicate anything about the demeanor 9 of the person who spoke to them? 10 A: I can't recollect if there was any 11 discussion about that particular point. 12 Q: Did -- do you have any recollection 13 if the person was... 14 A: Well, I'll put it this way, I didn't 15 get a sense that it was in jest. Put it that way. 16 Q: Okay. And then, there's a note: 17 "OPP Who car stuck in the sand on our 18 side." 19 And, who told you that? 20 See it; 16:44? Did -- 21 A: Oh, yes. Yes. I'm not sure who 22 reported that in, but I believe that was on the side of 23 Outer Drive as opposed to the sandy parking lot. 24 Q: Oh, on the Outer Drive side? 25 A: That -- that's as I recollect and
331 that's simply from memory. 2 Q: And, the OPP Who car was simply a car 3 that had painted on it, "OPP" and then the words, "W-H- 4 O"? 5 A: That's correct. It was, I believe a 6 -- a white car and it had been -- and there were some 7 tail fins attached to it. 8 Q: And, this was the car that was 9 reported up as being the OPP car that had been taken by 10 the occupiers? 11 A: I believe so, yes. 12 Q: And, that the -- I think in one -- in 13 the call with -- the first call, I believe with Ron Fox, 14 they talked about the -- talked about them -- someone at 15 the MNR saying occupiers had an OPP car and Ron Fox had 16 said that he didn't think when the car they did have 17 simply said on it, "OPP Who" 18 A: Correct. I suspect the information 19 was, there was a car with "OPP" on it and that got 20 construed to be an OPP car. 21 Q: And, that's part of the problem as -- 22 no matter in what situation when information goes through 23 two (2) or three (3) or four (4) or five (5) levels of 24 people, the information gets changed and distorted from 25 how it started out?
341 A: Correct. It's always problematic. 2 Q: And, that's whether it's dealing with 3 a police situation or any other situation? 4 A: I would agree. 5 Q: Then, you had a discussion at 16:35, 6 which is noted at 16:42 here, but it's 16:35 with 7 Inspector Robinson and Mr. -- Inspector Robertson was the 8 individual that was dealing with -- he gave logistics 9 support. 10 He was the gentleman looking after the 11 helicopter issue? 12 A: Correct. He's from -- 13 Q: And -- 14 A: -- from General Headquarters. 15 Q: From General Headquarters? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And, General Headquarters, at this 18 time was still in Toronto or had it moved to Orillia? 19 A: Actually, it was -- it was just 20 literally opening at that time in Orillia. 21 Q: In Orillia? 22 A: A brand new facility. 23 Q: And, it's Tab 46; it's call number 24 41. 25
351 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 Insp. Ed ROBERTSON and CARSON 4 September 6, 1995 5 TIME: 16.35.06 hours 6 Track 2.wav 7 8 ARCHIBALD: Command Post ARCHIBALD. 9 ROBERTSON: Mr. ARCHIBALD. 10 ARCHIBALD: Yes. 11 ROBERTSON: Inspector ROBERTSON. 12 ARCHIBALD: Inspector ROBERTSON how are you now. 13 ROBERTSON: I'm just fine. 14 ARCHIBALD: Is your day getting any better? 15 ROBERTSON: Uh I don't know. 16 ARCHIBALD: You don't know. 17 ROBERTSON: Who's hanging around there? 18 ARCHIBALD: Ah I've got ah KOROSEC, Inspector CARSON 19 ah 20 ROBERTSON: Let me speak to John would ya. 21 ARCHIBALD: SKINNER okay just one moment 22 (pause) 23 CARSON: John CARSON. 24 ROBERTSON: Hi, it's Eddie. 25 CARSON: Hey how are you doing?
361 ROBERTSON: Not bad I've got sixty-four (64)sets of 2 Nomex Kevelard (ph) coveralls being sorted 3 off a stock shelf right now being loaded 4 into a purolator airplane in Edmonton and 5 they'll be here tomorrow. 6 CARSON: Excellent appreciate that we may need them 7 before we're over. 8 ROBERTSON: Yeah ah the only thing John is that they 9 won't have sh arm shoulder flashes. 10 CARSON: Yeah. 11 ROBERTSON: Um but there gray so the guys should be 12 wearing their gray vests. 13 CARSON: Yep. 14 ROBERTSON: Okay. 15 CARSON: That's right they'd be over top anyway. 16 ROBERTSON: Yeah so at least they're identifiable as 17 police. 18 CARSON: Yep shouldn't be a problem we'll certainly 19 address that. 20 ROBERTSON: Okay and you got the night vision. 21 CARSON: Yep excellent appreciate that all the toys 22 there ah the batons we've got the batons 23 from the ah ASP batons. 24 ROBERTSON: Yeah and then I guess they sent down the 25 their four (4) two (2) two (2) three (3)
371 and four (4) shotguns with em too. 2 CARSON: (laughs) Yeah the guys asked what's the 3 bonus here (laughs). 4 ROBERTSON: Well remember John I own those. 5 CARSON: Okay that's fine that's fine we'll be glad 6 to send it back hopefully with every 7 bullet. 8 ROBERTSON: Ah yes okay. 9 CARSON: (laughs) 10 ROBERTSON: MNR cop coppers still there er. 11 CARSON: Yep oh yeah ah excellent we we've got some 12 excellent video air footage from the air 13 ah it's really helping us out in our sh 14 planning stages here. It 15 ROBERTSON: Yeah. 16 CARSON: It's just been excellent the guys been 17 nothing but cooperative perfect. 18 ROBERTSON: It should for the fuckin price I'm paying 19 for him (laughs). 20 CARSON: Yeah yeah right yeah well I tell you MNR 21 has really helped us out like they they're 22 running a kitchen down there for our 23 troops and everything they're they're 24 excellent. 25 ROBERTSON: (u/I)
381 CARSON: Just hang on just hang on just hold on one 2 sec here hang on. 3 (pause) 4 CARSON: Yeah okay no problem I just ah tied up 5 some of the little things here. Anyway so 6 ah yeah they've they've been ah it's great 7 and like and ah everything is coming 8 through ah any idea when ah military is 9 going to want the guys for the training. 10 (background talking) 11 ROBERTSON: Not yet but I'll take care of that ah 12 first thing in the morning. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 ROBERTSON: Because I'm trying to get a letter through 15 Sol Gen to Sol Gen I've got a draft here 16 right now. 17 CARSON: What I got a letter of agreement of usual 18 you mean. 19 ROBERTSON: Well yeah what it is is asking for ah it 20 says in just Commissioner O'Grady's asked 21 that I seek your assistance to arrange an 22 agreement for the loan or lease of the 23 type of the vehicle on an on needed basis 24 okay. 25 CARSON: All right.
391 ROBERTSON: Ah the OPP will adhere to any restrictions 2 required including the covering of all the 3 DND identification, ah the OPP will 4 provide experience vehicle operators okay. 5 CARSON: Yep. 6 ROBERTSON: Put our own markings on them. 7 CARSON: Right matter of fact I have the whole 8 decal kits here. 9 ROBERTSON: Okay so this can be faxed actually Phil I 10 think was faxing it to RUNSMAN's offices 11 as of about an hour ago. 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 ROBERTSON: Ah and then I'll set up the training first 14 thing in the morning that has to I have to 15 make ah an under the table request. 16 CARSON: Okay okay. 17 ROBERTSON: (laughs) 18 CARSON: No problem. 19 ROBERTSON: All right so that's rolling. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 ROBERTSON: Anything else. 22 CARSON: No no I think other than that we're in 23 pretty good shape. That's that's great I 24 appreciate all your help. 25 ROBERTSON: You're welcome.
401 CARSON: Eh I tell yah (laughs) it's been busy 2 around here. 3 ROBERTSON: I imagine. 4 CARSON: Yeah. 5 ROBERTSON: Is SKINNER still looking for me or was he 6 just being rude earlier. 7 CARSON: Ah just a second (to background) 8 Kent were you looking for Inspector 9 ROBERTSON? 10 He he has a question for you whatever it 11 is he he was he's not really that bad of 12 an asshole you really don't have to say 13 that about him. 14 ROBERTSON: (laughs) 15 CARSON: (laughs) You sit here and just ah what the 16 fucks going on here. Here he is. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And he then continues to have a 20 discussion with Kent Skinner about an issue involving the 21 TRU team, but not with respect to anything in relation to 22 the Ipperwash Park? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And the -- can you tell us -- there's 25 at page 297 of this transcript, there's at the top of the
411 page, it's Robertson and he's talking about the Nomex 2 Kevlar overalls and you respond: 3 "Excellent, appreciate that. We may 4 need them before we're over." 5 And what we're you referring to? 6 A: Well that's Nomex, and it's Kevlar; 7 it's -- that's the material the coveralls are made of, 8 the fire retardant material. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: It's just that at, you know, at some 11 point in time, if and when the injunction is provided and 12 depending on the status of that, it may be necessary to 13 have that kind of kit available to us. 14 Q: All right. And at the bottom of the 15 page, I take it that Mr. Robertson had sent down -- 16 Inspector Robertson, some additional rifles; is that 17 correct? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And there were four (4) .223s; and 20 what's that refer to? 21 A: That -- that's the model of weapon. 22 Q: Okay. And that's a -- 23 A: That's a rifle. 24 Q: A rifle. 25 A: Normally used by ERT personnel.
421 Q: Normally used by the ERT people? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And four (4) shotguns? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And had you requested these 6 additional firearms? 7 A: No, that was why the commentary there 8 about being the bonus because, quite frankly, I would 9 suggest Robertson wasn't known for sending anything that 10 wasn't requested. 11 Q: Okay. And then you note, 12 "Okay, that's fine, that's fine. We'll 13 be glad to send it back hopefully with 14 every bullet." 15 And what were you referring to there, sir? 16 A: I was indicating I hoped we wouldn't 17 need the equipment at all. 18 Q: Okay. And then at the book -- page 19 298 at the bottom of the page, he refers to the letter 20 from the Commissioner with respect to requesting the 21 equipment. 22 Did you have any understanding of what had 23 to happen in order for a request for the use of the 24 military equipment to be put through? 25 A: Well, I understood there had to be a
431 formal request to go up the chain, and it had to go up 2 through the Solicitor General and to the Federal 3 Solicitor General. 4 Q: Okay. Had you ever been involved in 5 such a request before this incident? 6 A: No. And that type of request is -- 7 is normally done by the headquarter staff, and Robertson 8 would be normally -- his position in that particular 9 bureau he worked in, would normally be the place where 10 that would originate. 11 Q: Okay. Now, if I could take you back. 12 We spoke briefly yesterday about the -- an individual by 13 the name of Cindy Elder. 14 A: Yes. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we don't have, 16 Commissioner, a transcript of Ms. Elder's first call, but 17 we have a call that -- there's a partial transcript; it's 18 at Tab 43. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And it's a -- the transcript there is 22 between Bob Grimalson and Mr. -- and Deputy Carson. And 23 who is Bob Grimalson, Deputy Carson? 24 A: Actually, it's Bob Drummelsmith. 25 Q: Oh, how do you...
441 A: D-R-U-M-M-E-L-S-M-I-T-H. 2 Q: Can you do that for me again? D-R..? 3 A: D-R-U-M-M-E-L-S-M-I-T-H. He's the 4 Com. Centre unit commander staff sergeant at London Com. 5 Centre. 6 Q: Okay. And this is the -- Cindy 7 Elder is the person that you referred to yesterday? 8 A: Yes. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 11 12 CINDY ELDER and BOB DRUMMELSMITH 13 14 ELDER: Is this Mr. CARSON? 15 DRUMMELSMITH: No, it's not. 16 ELDER: Oh, I'm sorry, I was looking for John 17 Carson. 18 DRUMMELSMITH: Yeah, he's not in the building right now, 19 could I take a message? 20 ELDER: You sure can, it's Cindy Elder calling 21 from Approaches Mediation. 22 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. Purchase Mediation? 23 ELDER: No, Approaches Mediation, sorry. I get 24 all tongue tied sometimes when I -- 25 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm.
451 ELDER: -- say the name of our own place here. 2 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay, and what did you need -- what -- 3 could I have him call you back? 4 ELDER: You can do. Actually why I'm calling, is 5 that he and I spoke I guess well over a 6 month ago. 7 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. 8 ELDER: And Ipperwash was sort of winding down and 9 seemed to be under control. 10 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. 11 ELDER: And I see it's -- 12 (Background conversation) 13 ELDER: -- turned up the volume again? 14 DRUMMELSMITH: Quite a bit. 15 ELDER: Yeah. So I thought I would give him a 16 call back again. 17 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. 18 ELDER: I'm also dealing with Gustafsen Lake out 19 west too. 20 DRUMMELSMITH: Oh. 21 ELDER: So there may be some stuff from that 22 you might be able to use that might help 23 you with this one (1). 24 DRUMMELSMITH: You know, I could get him to call you 25 right back if you'd give me your number.
461 ELDER: Sure can, it's -- I'll give you the one 2 (1) eight hundred (800) line. One (1) 3 eight hundred (800) -- 4 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. 5 ELDER: Eight (8) one (1) one (1) nine (9) eight 6 (8) seven (7) five (5). 7 DRUMMELSMITH: Nine (9) eight (8) seven (7) five (5). 8 ELDER: Right. 9 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay, with any luck at all he should call 10 you back within a couple minutes. 11 ELDER: Terrific. 12 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. 13 ELDER: Thanks. 14 DRUMMELSMITH: All right, bye now. 15 16 End of Conversation. 17 18 Bob GRIMALSON & CARSON 19 September 6, 1995 20 TIME: 15.56.52 hours 21 Track 1.wav 22 23 ARCHIBALD: Command Post ARCHIBALD. 24 GRIMALSON: Yeah is ah CARSON there? 25 ARCHIBALD: Just one moment can I advise who's calling
471 sir? 2 GRIMALSON: Yeah it's Bob GRIMALSON. 3 ARCHIBALD: Just one moment please. 4 CARSON: John CARSON. 5 GRIMALSON: Yeah John it's ah Bob GRIMALSON calling. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 GRIMALSON: I just got a call from a lady Cindy ELDER 8 of Approaches and Mediation. 9 CARSON: Oh yeah Cindy ELDER yeah. 10 GRIMALSON: And she wanted ah you to call her and 11 seemed to think it was important. I've 12 got a one (1) eight hundred (800) number. 13 CARSON: Okay would you call her back. 14 GRIMALSON: Uh huh. 15 CARSON: Say I'm extremely busy and unless there is 16 something that she can supply you of 17 information that ah is of urgent nature I 18 just don't have time. 19 GRIMALSON: Okay. 20 CARSON: Okay cause like I am immdated with phone 21 calls from hell and back. 22 GRIMALSON: Okay. 23 CARSON: And ah unless there's something that has 24 ah a direct effect on this incident I 25 don't have time today to talk to her.
481 GRIMALSON: Okay. 2 CARSON: And ah the best I can do is sometime 3 tomorrow. 4 GRIMALSON: Okay. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 GRIMALSON: Alrighty. 7 CARSON: And and we're not trying to be ignorant 8 I'm just you know that's just life right 9 now. 10 GRIMALSON: Yep. 11 CARSON: Okay. 12 GRIMALSON: No problem. 13 CARSON: Thanks Bob. 14 GRIMALSON: Yep. 15 CARSON: Right. 16 End of conversation 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And, the -- I'll play the balance of 20 the call, because Mr. Drummelsmith calls her back. 21 Unfortunately, we'll have to work through the call, but 22 you had made a note in your notebook which is -- or your 23 -- the little three (3) ring scratch pad that you used; 24 it's part of Exhibit 4 -- P-410, page 56? 25 A: Yes.
491 Q: And, Cindy Elder called Bob 2 Drummelsmith? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And, does that refer to this call 5 with Mr. Drummelsmith? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And then, there's a note: 8 "Tim McCabe, 08:00, courthouse, Sarnia 9 [something] office." 10 A: Don Vale? 11 Q: Pardon? 12 A: Don Vale. 13 Q: Don Vale office. And, that's a note 14 from your call with Tim McCabe? 15 A: Tim McCabe. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS) 18 19 CINDY ELDER and STAFF SERGEANT DRUMMELSMITH 20 21 DRUMMELSMITH: Staff Sergeant DRUMMELSMITH. 22 ELDER: Is this Mr. CARSON? 23 DRUMMELSMITH: No, it's not. 24 ELDER: Oh, I actually was looking for John at 25 this one.
501 DRUMMELSMITH: Yeah, I can likely get him to call you 2 right back if you'd give me a number. 3 ELDER: Sure can. It's -- I'll give you the one 4 (1) eight hundred (800) line, one (1) 5 eight hundred (800) -- 6 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. 7 ELDER: Eight (8) one (1) one (1) nine (9) eight 8 (8) seven (7) five (5). 9 DRUMMELSMITH: Nine (9) eight (8) seven (7) five (5). 10 ELDER: Right. 11 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay, with any luck at all he should call 12 you back within a couple minutes. 13 ELDER: Terrific. 14 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. 15 ELDER: Thanks. 16 DRUMMELSMITH: All right, bye now. 17 18 End of Conversation. 19 20 Bob GRIMALSON & CARSON 21 September 6, 1995 22 TIME: 15.56.52 hours 23 Track 1.wav 24 25 ARCHIBALD: Command Post ARCHIBALD.
511 GRIMALSON: Yeah is ah CARSON there? 2 ARCHIBALD: Just one moment can I advise who's calling 3 sir? 4 GRIMALSON: Yeah it's Bob GRIMALSON. 5 ARCHIBALD: Just one moment please. 6 CARSON: John CARSON. 7 GRIMALSON: Yeah John it's ah Bob GRIMALSON calling. 8 CARSON: Yeah. 9 GRIMALSON: I just got a call from a lady Cindy ELDER 10 of Approaches and Mediation. 11 CARSON: Oh yeah Cindy ELDER yeah. 12 GRIMALSON: And she wanted ah you to call her and 13 seemed to think it was important. I've 14 got a one (1) eight hundred (800) number. 15 CARSON: Okay would you call her back. 16 GRIMALSON: Uh huh. 17 CARSON: Say I'm extremely busy and unless there is 18 something that she can supply you of 19 information that ah is of urgent nature I 20 just don't have time. 21 GRIMALSON: Okay. 22 CARSON: Okay cause like I am immdated with phone 23 calls from hell and back. 24 GRIMALSON: Okay. 25 CARSON: And ah unless there's something that has
521 ah a direct effect on this incident I 2 don't have time today to talk to her. 3 GRIMALSON: Okay. 4 CARSON: And ah the best I can do is sometime 5 tomorrow. 6 GRIMALSON: Okay. 7 CARSON: Okay. 8 GRIMALSON: Alrighty. 9 CARSON: And and we're not trying to be ignorant 10 I'm just you know that's just life right 11 now. 12 GRIMALSON: Yep. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 GRIMALSON: No problem. 15 CARSON: Thanks Bob. 16 GRIMALSON: Yep. 17 CARSON: Right. 18 End of conversation 19 20 CINDY ELDER and STAFF SERGEANT DRUMMELSMITH 21 22 (phone ringing) 23 ELDER: Approaches Mediation. 24 DRUMMELSMITH: Yes, Cindy? 25 ELDER: Yes.
531 DRUMMELSMITH: Yeah, it's Bob DRUMMELSMITH calling. 2 ELDER: Hi. 3 DRUMMELSMITH: I was able to get a hold of John CARSON, 4 and he said unless it's something that 5 could assist with the incident they're 6 dealing with right now, the closest he 7 could get back to you is tomorrow. 8 but -- that's a little blunt maybe but -- 9 ELDER: Well, that's why I was calling was to 10 offer him some assistance with the 11 situation right now. 12 DRUMMELSMITH: Yeah, that's what I suggested to him. 13 ELDER: Yes. No, that is definitely why I was 14 calling him. I would not even impose 15 myself on him under the circumstances, I 16 know what he is going through. 17 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. 18 ELDER: Yeah, I think I could definitely help him 19 out with that. 20 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. 21 ELDER: If -- if he wants me to. 22 DRUMMELSMITH: Yeah, I'm kind of caught in the middle 23 here, right. 24 ELDER: Oh, I'm sure you are. That's fine. I 25 just thought that in light of the fact
541 that I've been working with the RCMP on 2 The West Coast with Gustafsen, as you 3 know that's like really hot right now. 4 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. 5 ELDER: That, you know, he may want to try some of 6 of the stuff that we've done to try and 7 calm that one (1) down. 8 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm, okay. 9 ELDER: I'm still in town right now, so timing is 10 good. 11 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. Okay, I can relay the message to 12 him. He is the boss, so if -- 13 ELDER: Okay. 14 DRUMMELSMITH: -- if he's -- like I don't always 15 (inaudible) he's really busy. 16 ELDER: Yeah. 17 DRUMMELSMITH: So anyway, he will get back to you, but he 18 said it may not be until tomorrow. 19 ELDER: Okay, that's -- 20 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. 21 ELDER: -- that's fine, just so that he -- you 22 know, I just want him to know that, yes, I 23 was still keeping an eye on it and -- 24 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. 25 ELDER: -- if he wants some help with it, we'd be
551 happy to offer him some assistance, and -- 2 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. 3 ELDER: -- take it from there. 4 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay, Cindy. 5 ELDER: Thanks a lot. 6 DRUMMELSMITH: I will relay this information. 7 ELDER: Okay. 8 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. 9 ELDER: Bye bye. 10 DRUMMELSMITH: Bye now. 11 12 End of conversation. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And it was Ms. Elder, was the only 16 person that you told us earlier in your evidence that 17 called to ask -- try to assist? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And on this page 56 of Exhibit 410, 20 after the note to McCabe, there's a note that looks like: 21 "front-end loader, forklift." 22 A: Yes. 23 "A bus in the built-up area. Les and 24 Russ running the show. Leadership 25 questionable."
561 Q: And when was that note made as best 2 as you can recall today, Deputy Carson? 3 A: My guess -- best guess is that's, you 4 know, in the afternoon of the 6th. 5 Q: And with respect to the next note: 6 "Will settle this with guns." 7 And then the license number appears on the 8 left. 9 "Mark Wright, women and children, six 10 (6) kids." 11 Was that note made after the note about 12 Les and Russ? 13 A: I'm making the assumption it was. 14 Q: And perhaps to assist, you had a 15 meeting with Captain Smith; was this note made as part or 16 part of it made as a result of your meeting with Captain 17 Smith? 18 A: That would seem to be -- to make 19 sense, yes. 20 Q: And Les and Russ, who do they refer 21 to? 22 A: That's -- that's Les and Russ Jewell. 23 Q: Okay. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
571 Q: Then you had a discussion with Doug 2 Babbitt at 16:55 and it's -- 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: -- Tab 47; the transcript. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And, it's noted at 16:48. It's -- 7 for the benefit of My Friends, it's call number 42 on the 8 Carson Complete -- Master Complete List. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 11 12 CARSON and Doug BABBITT 13 September 6, 1995 14 TIME: 16.48.00 hours 15 Track 1.wav 16 17 CARSON: Doug. 18 BABBITT: Yes. 19 CARSON: How are yeah. 20 BABBITT: All right. 21 CARSON: Good. 22 BABBITT: Um do we now have a spokesperson we're 23 dealing with? 24 CARSON: No. 25 BABBITT: We don't eh.
581 CARSON: No. 2 BABBITT: So we still have no contact with anybody 3 inside that ah camp. 4 CARSON: Well we were down there again this 5 afternoon. 6 BABBITT: Okay. 7 CARSON: And we attempted to ah make contact see if 8 we could have ah they would identify 9 somebody to us as a spokesperson. 10 BABBITT: Yeah. 11 CARSON: And they refused to talk to us. 12 BABBITT: They did ah. 13 CARSON: Yeah. 14 BABBITT: Okay. 15 CARSON: Yeah so adult ah adult ah natives were 16 there and refused to ah to ah talk to our 17 ah people. 18 BABBITT: Okay I I just wanted to check on that and 19 make sure that something hadn't occurred 20 in in the meantime. 21 CARSON: Yeah the only one between you and me the 22 only ones that would talk to them were the 23 kids. 24 BABBITT: Really. 25 CARSON: Yeah yeah.
591 BABBITT: Isn't that something eh. 2 CARSON: Yeah. 3 BABBITT: Oh okay we're going to be pulling the plug 4 here pretty soon and moving our stuff down 5 to their location 6 CARSON: Oh is everything set up down there. 7 BABBITT: Yeah it's all set to go so I mean it's 8 it's an easy move. 9 CARSON: How how are the folks at the Legion okay? 10 BABBITT: Oh yeah they're fine they you know there's 11 no difficulty there at all. I'm going to 12 turn over the key back to them the tables 13 and chairs are back here and we'll be out 14 of their hair. 15 CARSON: Tell them we appreciate their help. 16 BABBITT: Okay. 17 CARSON: Yep. 18 BABBITT: We'll we'll get some of my fancy thank you 19 letters later (laughs). 20 CARSON: Ah I was going to say ah like don't forget 21 after this is over will ah we'll make it 22 right with em. 23 BABBITT: Yep. 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 BABBITT: Thanks John.
601 CARSON: Thank you. 2 BABBITT: Yep bye. 3 End of conversation 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And, at that point they're getting 7 ready to move to Pinery Park Detachment and he wanted to 8 know, as it said, whether or not there was a spokesperson 9 identified? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: Then, there's a note at 16:55: 12 "John Carson: We go in with a Court 13 Order and they run. We will tack it on 14 one (1) of the sheds. They will 15 eventually come and read it." 16 And, who was that discussion with? 17 A: That's not clear, but it's 18 probably Mark Wright. 19 Q: And, the car in the sand, there's a 20 note about a police monitor? 21 A: Yes, there was some discussion we 22 know if it -- if -- if there's a police monitor in it or 23 not. 24 Q: And, at this point in time back in 25 1995, could the radio communications of the police
611 offices -- of the Ontario Provincial Police be monitored 2 by scanners? 3 A: Yes, it could. It was what's 4 referred to as an analog system that was being utilized 5 at that time and it could be easily monitored with a 6 monitor that could be purchased quite easily at places 7 like Radio Shack. 8 Q: And, since that time has the 9 technology changed so that it's not easily monitored? 10 A: Now, in -- in southern Ontario, not 11 necessarily in northern Ontario, but in southern Ontario, 12 we use a -- a digital system, which is a much more 13 sophisticated system, technologically that requires a 14 special scanner that's not commercially available in 15 Canada. 16 Q: Is it available in the United States? 17 A: Yes, it is. 18 Q: Commercially? 19 A: Yes, it's a fairly expensive piece of 20 equipment, but it can be purchased. And normally in 21 Canada to monitor digital systems, you require 22 authorization from Industry Canada, however, if they're 23 purchased in the States and brought back, they can be 24 utilized without that authorization. 25 Q: But back in 1995 because the
621 communications were analog they could be monitored and 2 was that a concern? 3 A: Yes. It was a concern. 4 Q: And why was that? 5 A: Well clearly any transmission made by 6 the police to -- to any of the officers could be overhead 7 by anyone who chose to listen. 8 Q: Then at 17:00 hours: 9 "Janet Vandenberg brought in John 10 Carson an updated copy of affidavit." 11 And there's a reference to Inspector 12 Robertson. And whose affidavit -- do you recall today 13 whose affidavit was being referred to there? 14 A: I believe that was a draft from Tim 15 McCabe. 16 Q: For...? 17 A: For the affidavit for the injunction 18 the next morning. 19 Q: And was it your affidavit or Les 20 Kobayashi's affidavit or can -- do you recall? 21 A: It certainly wasn't mine. 22 Q: Okay. And then there's a note about 23 in the next paragraph: 24 "Stan Korosec, do you want Trevor 25 Richardson to go to a homeowner's
631 resident? 2 John Carson advises that he wants 3 Trevor Richardson to go and talk to 4 this individual and see if he has any 5 other information (individual who 6 called in car stuck in the sand)." 7 And what was that about? 8 A: We wanted the -- I was directing 9 Richardson to have someone interview the caller who 10 reported the vehicle stuck in the sand near Outer Drive. 11 Q: Okay. And then at the top of page 68 12 there's a note at 18:12. 13 "Briefing at 18:12 hours with command 14 members." 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the -- could you just tell us 17 about this briefing? 18 A: That would be the briefing of the 19 supervisory team, management team, Sergeant Richardson, 20 Korosec, I don't believe Mark Wright was there at that 21 point in time, but the usual group whose been involved. 22 Q: And there's a note that: 23 "Don Bell went to find the car but it 24 was gone by the time he got there." 25 A: Yes.
641 Q: And then there's a note about someone 2 who lived at the beach end of the Army Base. 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Yes. And then they -- there's a 5 reference with respect to not being practical to bring in 6 cameras? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And then there's a note -- do you 9 recall what those cameras are; the ones that you couldn't 10 recall before? 11 A: I'm not sure but it probably would be 12 referring to cameras that work at -- in the dark, or 13 after dark. 14 Q: "John Carson: Are residents aware we 15 are in there? 16 Yes, they are aware." 17 And which residents were you referring to 18 at this point? 19 A: Well this -- this resident that this 20 discussion's taking place about is at the -- on the Outer 21 Drive side of the military base. And I believe my 22 question was trying to determine if the residents in that 23 area were aware of the OPP being in there and the patrols 24 and trying to -- as -- as it indicated, the one (1) 25 family live on the beach at the end of the Army Base and
651 comment they are paranoid. 2 And it was trying to ensure they 3 understood that we were close by and were able to allay 4 their concerns. 5 Q: And on the map that's -- that the 6 photograph that's up on the screen, Outer Drive runs 7 along the eastern boundary of the Army Camp? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And then there's a little square that 10 one can see on this map, and is that the -- in the upper 11 right hand corner of the Army Camp, and is that where the 12 cottage is that you're referring to here are -- is the 13 area where the cottages are? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I -- I believe they're to the right 18 in this area here. 19 Q: So, that would be on the area west -- 20 east of the -- the notional boundary for the Army -- Army 21 Camp if it ran directly north to the -- to the water? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And, there is a square area with 24 cottages that would fit within the block of the Army 25 Camp if the Army Camp -- the border ran directly up to
661 the water; is that not correct, the northeast corner? 2 A: To tell you the truth, it's been so 3 long since I've been back there I can't confirm that. 4 Q: Okay. We've heard evidence that 5 there are cottages in that upper right-hand corner. 6 A: That -- that's possible. I've been 7 all through there, but it's been a long time. 8 Q: And, you have a note -- we'll come 9 back to that for a moment. There's a note: 10 "John Carson: Made to understand that 11 a Court Order -- Order is being sought. 12 Trevor: Safety factor. 13 John Carson: Safety issue can be 14 claimed out because [it says] he [I 15 take it, it means] we have already been 16 ambushed." 17 Right? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And, what's that refer to? 20 A: Well, I -- once again I was 21 cautioning the members involved who ensure that our 22 members are practising personal safety because I didn't 23 want to have a repeat of the circumstances of the night 24 before. 25 Q: And, the circumstances the night
671 before as you understood them? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And the reference to the court order? 4 A: It's just a -- that's just the point 5 that the court order was being sought and I suspect given 6 that Janet Vandenberg had just brought me the copy of the 7 affidavit I probably shared with them that it -- that it 8 was in process and that Mark Wright would be attending 9 the next morning. 10 Q: Okay. And then, there's a note: 11 "John Carson: Mark Wright gone to see 12 if there is a meeting tonight." 13 What's that refer to? 14 A: I'm not sure. 15 Q: Okay. And, was there a meeting with 16 respect -- a meeting of cottagers at or about this time? 17 A: In fact, there was. Mark Wright 18 basically stumbled onto a meeting of cottagers in the 19 parking lot near the TOC site that the officers were 20 using; the St. John Ambulance. There was a -- a number 21 of people in there who had assembled and were quite irate 22 about the circumstances that were occurring in the 23 Provincial Park. 24 In fact, as I understand it from Mark 25 Wright, they were very upset and discussing literally
681 walking -- marching into the Park and confronting the 2 occupiers. My understanding is that Wright convinced 3 them that we were doing what we could do, that we were 4 pursuing an injunction and that we had sufficient 5 personnel there to handle the situation and to -- he -- 6 he persuaded them not to -- to go to the Park. 7 Q: Okay. Then, there's a note: 8 "Stan Korosec notes the site of 9 protestors. Mark Wright called and 10 advised he saw nothing." 11 And, do you know what that refers to? 12 A: I'm not sure. 13 Q: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Then, there's a note: 18 "John Carson telling Stan Korosec to 19 brief his guys. Tell them they're 20 hanging on for an extra hour again 21 tomorrow." 22 And, is that the overnight ERT teams? 23 A: Yeah, correct, so that they're 24 prepared -- they -- they realize they'll stay on an 25 extra hour while the barriers are being placed.
691 Q: And then, Richardson was going off 2 duty, Mark Dew was going to be on duty and there's a 3 reference: 4 "Stan Korosec to cover operational 5 things with teams. 6 John Carson: Tells -- tell team 7 members to keep heads up. 8 Trevor Richardson: If something 9 happens, have it called in, and it can 10 be put on OMPPAC. 11 John Carson: If damaged cars, bring 12 them back here. Going to make media 13 event out of them." 14 And what's being referred to in this 15 paragraph? 16 A: It's just that it -- if there are 17 occurrences overnight that the information be reported 18 back to the team at Forest so that the occurrences could 19 be entered on to the OMPPAC occurrence system. 20 And the reference about damaged cars was 21 that we wanted to make sure that if -- if we did have 22 damaged vehicles, that the media had an opportunity to 23 see the situation we were faced so that clearly they 24 could understand what was happening. 25 Q: So, that if a car was damaged, you
701 wanted to show it to the media? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And then there's a note: 4 "Les Kobayashi heading off to Sarnia 5 tomorrow at 8:15, Court at 9:00 for 6 emergency injunction. Want this kept 7 quiet. Arranging for an extra Court 8 security. Hopefully an injunction 9 tomorrow." 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And at the top of the next page it 12 simply reports that you: 13 "Will brief Mark Wright tonight." 14 And at this point, the -- regarding the 15 injunction, Mark Wright is aware of the history of the 16 dealings with Ipperwash; is that correct? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And Inspector Linton was not there 19 yet? 20 A: Not yet. 21 Q: And then there's a note: 22 "Brad Seltzer and Lorne Smith had been 23 at out at Kettle Point collecting 24 information on their feelings of the 25 situation. Mark Wright and Marg Eve
711 down at Park but did not have much 2 luck." 3 And did you have any understanding at this 4 point, at almost 6:30 on September 6th, as to what Brad 5 Seltzer and Lorne Smith had found out? 6 We'd talked about it earlier before -- or 7 in the afternoon on September 6th, but what was your 8 understanding of how they were making out at this point? 9 A: I believe at this point in time, they 10 hadn't returned back yet -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- and so I didn't have any up to 13 date information at that time as to their progress. 14 Q: Okay. And the -- at some point on 15 the evening of -- in the late afternoon or early evening 16 of September 6th, did you learn that Brad Seltzer and 17 Lorne Smith had set up a meeting for the next day, with 18 one of the occupiers? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And when did you learn that, sir? 21 I may have missed it in the notes. 22 A: Actually, I think it's in the next 23 bullet, sir, at 18:37. 24 "Seltzer returned back from Kettle 25 Point and updated [myself] on the
721 information he's received from Kettle 2 Point." 3 Q: Okay. And what do you recall that he 4 said about that? 5 A: As I recall, he indicated that he had 6 made some inroads at Kettle Point and he felt he was 7 going to be able to establish some discussion the 8 following morning. 9 Q: And do you recall if he said who he 10 was going to meet with? 11 A: I can't, but I can assure you that 12 Sergeant Seltzer probably has notes that reflect that. 13 Q: Okay. And then back up to the note 14 above, the last note at the briefing. 15 "John Carson: Keep our heads up. 16 Trevor Richardson: Concerned about 17 checkpoint 'C'. 18 John Carson: Have night vision there. 19 Make sure they pay attention. 20 Stan Korosec advises they can bring 21 more in. 22 John advises, You are giving them 23 another target. 24 Stan Korosec: Use night vision and 25 keep an eye."
731 And what's being referred to there? 2 A: Well, that's just to caution the 3 members who are working the checkpoints near the Park to 4 be careful. They had night vision to monitor things, but 5 at the same time they had to be very careful that if they 6 were too close, that it creates the situation where they 7 become the target and I didn't want that to happen. 8 We were just trying to maintain the status 9 quo here and not get into any of the confrontations. 10 Q: Okay. And, if I could take you to 11 page 57 of Exhibit 410, the notes from the small scratch 12 pad, I think you're calling it, the Hilary(phonetic) 13 scratch pad? 14 A: Yes? 15 Q: And, there's a note at 18:15. Is 16 that a note with respect to the meeting that we've just 17 reviewed? 18 A: There's a note at 18:15 hours from 19 Sergeant Trevor Richardson about the -- the north edge of 20 the Base, about -- 21 Q: Yeah? 22 A: -- not being any access from that 23 area? 24 A: Yes? 25 Q: But, I -- I believe what we're --
741 well, I know we indicated earlier we were going to have 2 some personnel in there, but I -- I believe there was 3 also going to be some night vision used on the other side 4 of the Park as well. So, I'm -- I'm not sure which side 5 of the situation this is actually referring to in the 6 note that you just discussed. 7 Q: Okay. And then, there's something, 8 emergence -- 9 A: AG. Yeah, AG emergent injunction, 10 court security. 11 Q: And, does that refer to the meeting 12 we've just looked at, at 18:15? 13 I'm just trying to place when you made 14 these notes, sir. 15 A: It's probably. 16 Q: And then, the last note? 17 A: Mark -- oh, that was a request for 18 someone to get some additional clothing for him from his 19 residence. 20 Q: Oh, I see, with respect to going to 21 Court? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And, I wonder if you could tell us -- 24 and we're going to put up on the screen, the map of the 25 area, what your understanding of where the checkpoints
751 were and, perhaps, we could run the -- the photograph so 2 that we -- great. 3 There were -- at this point in time, at 4 approximately 6:30 on September 6th, four (4) 5 checkpoints? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And, checkpoint 'D' was around the 8 Army Camp -- entrance to the Army Camp. Was it north of 9 the Army Camp or south of the Army Camp at this point in 10 time or do you recall? 11 A: It would be right near the Army Camp 12 entrance. Now, I -- I couldn't tell you if it was prior 13 to or just beyond, but it was right near the entrance of 14 the Base. 15 Q: So, it was -- checkpoint 'D' was 16 close to the entrance to the Base and, perhaps, we could 17 simply mark on this. 18 What we'll do is, when we're finished, 19 we'll make this an exhibit. Perhaps we can just reserve 20 an exhibit number for it. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-437. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-437? 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-437: Reserved 25
761 THE WITNESS: In -- in all likelihood, it 2 was -- in all -- all likelihood it was probably prior to 3 the gate entrance, but that's a guess on my part at best, 4 so... 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: Do you believe -- I -- all I'm -- 8 what I'm just trying to get now is what your best 9 recollection is of where they were. We'll get some other 10 evidence... 11 The -- I note that in project -- perhaps 12 this would be a good time for the morning break, it's 13 10:30. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good idea. 15 We'll take the morning break now. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 17 for fifteen (15) minutes. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 10:28 a.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 10:47 a.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
771 Q: Before the break we were simply 2 trying to establish where the -- you understood the 3 checkpoints were at approximately 6:30 on the evening of 4 September the 6th and we started with 'D'. And there's 5 also in Exhibit P-474 which is a copy of Project Maple, 6 an outline of where the checkpoints had originally been 7 contemplated to be. 8 But we dealt with 'D' which was around the 9 entrance to the Army Camp. Then 'C' was north on Army 10 Camp Road near, I believe -- where was it along Army Camp 11 Road? 12 A: I believe we had moved it in the are 13 of Silver Birch subdivision. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: It's right at the crest of the hill. 16 It's about half way down. Probably in this general area. 17 Q: It had originally been farther north 18 at -- 19 A: Yes, it would be -- originally it was 20 at the last roadway in which I think is Sunny -- 21 Summerside or Sunnyside, something like that. 22 Q: And it may be -- perhaps we could 23 it's original position as C -- C-1 and that was at the -- 24 near Gratton (phonetic) Drive? 25 A: That's correct.
781 Q: And Gratton Drive is the last street 2 that's -- that's before East Parkway. But the campground 3 runs north from Gratton Drive and you thought it was at 4 the northern edge of Gratton Drive? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And perhaps we could -- it would be - 7 - I mean the northern edge of the trailer park near the 8 entrance? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: So that it would move farther north 11 at the original position? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: In the area -- approximately in the 16 area that -- where the laser beam is on, would that be 17 approximately correct? 18 A: Your first -- it's actually the other 19 way. It's up this way. 20 Q: No. But I'm trying to establish 21 where it was originally. 22 A: Oh, originally it -- it would have 23 been at Gratton Drive. 24 Q: At Gratton Drive? 25 A: Right.
791 Q: Oh, okay. Okay. 2 A: And then it was moved back closer to 3 the Highway 21. 4 Q: And but was it moved back after 6:30? 5 We will see something -- 6 A: On the -- on the 6th? 7 Q: On the 6th. 8 A: No, it was moved back through the 9 night of the 5th. 10 Q: Through the night of the 5th it was 11 moved back so on -- during the day on the 6th, you 12 believe that the checkpoint was at -- closer to Clemens? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And is there -- there's a trail park 15 at that intersection? 16 A: Yes, I believe that's Silver Birch 17 subdivision. 18 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could mark that 19 with C-2? 20 Then checkpoint 'A' was up on East 21 Parkway? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And if we go -- do a highlight -- 24 enlarge East Parkway and... 25
801 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 4 Q: And it was closer to Army Camp Road? 5 A: Yes, originally I was of the 6 impression it was right near the junction here, right 7 where the first cottage would be, but I suspect it was 8 actually farther back in this area near the curve. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: You originally thought it was closer 13 to the actual intersection of -- where East Parkway turns 14 into Army Camp Road? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: But you believe on the eve -- by the 17 evening of September 6th, it was back by the curve? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And perhaps we could mark that 'A' 20 and perhaps A-1? 21 And the cottage that you were concerned 22 about that we spoke about yesterday, with respect to the 23 picnic tables, is that the cottage that is the first 24 cottage that one can see on this aerial photograph? 25 A: That's correct.
811 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: You initially thought that the 4 checkpoint was closer to -- at the intersection and then 5 was moved back to A-1? 6 A: That was my sense of it, yes. 7 Q: So, that on the evening of September 8 -- at 6:30 on September 6th, the checkpoint was at, you 9 believe, A-1? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And then if we go west on East 12 Parkway Drive towards the Ministry of Natural Resources 13 parking lot, I wonder if you could highlight that, Mr. 14 Emery, for us. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And the portion that was used during 19 this incident by the Ontario Provincial Police was the 20 part of the parking lot that was marked off, the part we 21 see on the easternmost part of the MNR parking lot? 22 A: As I recall, the St. John Ambulance 23 vehicle was in this general area. 24 Q: And perhaps we could put a marker 25 there; St. John's Ambulance.
821 And it's in the southeast quadrant of the 2 parking lot, approximately? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then while we're at it here, 5 later on during the evening of September 6th and we'll 6 come to it, the TRU team truck was stationed in the 7 parking lot and can you recall today, approximately, 8 where the TRU team truck was? 9 A: It would have been in this general 10 vicinity right here. 11 Q: A little bit north of the St. John's 12 Ambulance location? 13 A: Yes, the driveway cuts across the 14 center of the parking lot and I believe we were on either 15 side of that driveway or very close proximity to that 16 driveway. 17 Q: So it should be called a TRU -- and 18 we'll label it, "TRU team TOC" T-O-C? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And were the St. John's ambulance 21 location, perhaps we should mark that, "ERT TOC." Is 22 that a better description? 23 A: That's fair. 24 Q: And, it would be E.R.T.? 25 A: Correct.
831 Q: TOC? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: It's -- then, if we could go -- bring 4 the image up farther west on East Parkway to the 5 intersection of the Ipperwash Road and Ipper -- and East 6 Parkway Drive, can you tell us of where your 7 understanding checkpoint 'B' was, originally? 8 A: Checkpoint 'B'? 9 Q: 'B' 10 A: It should have been right at the... 11 Q: This is East Parkway; it runs east 12 towards the MNR parking lot. And this is Ipperwash Road 13 running down from -- 14 A: Correct. It should have been right 15 in here, right at that junction. 16 Q: And, we'll call that 'D' -- 17 checkpoint 'D'? 18 A: That was 'B', I believe. 19 Q: I mean, excuse me, 'B'. I'm getting 20 my 'B's' and 'D's' mixed up. 21 I'm sorry, Deputy Carson, it's 'B'. 22 A: Thank you. 23 Q: Now, can I just go back to Cindy 24 Elder for a minute? 25 Cindy Elder called at approximately four
841 o'clock on the afternoon of September the 6th and it's 2 fair to say, is it not, Inspector -- I mean, Deputy 3 Carson, that at that time you still had not succeeded in 4 making any contact with the occupiers? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And, you were, at that point, at 7 approximately four o'clock waiting for Marg Eve and Mark 8 Wright to return from their visit to the -- to the Park? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And, Cindy Elder was -- had called 11 you earlier on in August, I believe, to offer assistance 12 or to talk to you? 13 A: Yes, I spoke to her in August. 14 Q: And, why didn't you call her back on 15 the afternoon of September 6th when she was the only 16 person, up to that point, who had offered assistance? 17 A: Well, there was a couple of issues. 18 First of all, I was very busy as I 19 indicated to Staff Sergeant Drummelsmith at that 20 particular moment and I certainly indicated I'd get back 21 to her. 22 The second part is, as I recall she was 23 from the Manitoulin area, and what I really needed at 24 that particular point in time was somebody local who 25 could establish something, like, right now. And quite
851 frankly, I'm not sure what our -- how our discussion went 2 originally in August, but I -- I didn't recall -- I don't 3 recall today that she had made any contact in the 4 Military Base at that time that provided any specific 5 help at that time. 6 Q: Back in August? 7 A: Back in August? 8 Q: Yes...? 9 A: So, while I certainly wanted to find 10 out what she had to offer, I didn't have any sense that 11 from our previous discussion that she could do something 12 imminently for me, maybe a little more longer term, but 13 in the short-term, I'd get back to her as soon as I 14 could, which at that point in time, I felt the next 15 morning probably my best guess. 16 Q: Okay. And, there was no other reason 17 not to call her back right then in the afternoon. 18 A: No. If -- if I would have time and 19 not been busy I -- I would have taken the call, quite 20 frankly. 21 Q: Okay. And as you said to Mr. 22 Drummelsmith, you had many calls, coming in and out, on 23 the afternoon of September the 6th? 24 A: It was a very busy time. 25 Q: And if we could move ahead at 18:37,
861 I asked you about Mark Wright and: 2 "Mark Wright gone to see if there was a 3 meeting tonight." 4 And the -- then I talked about a meeting 5 with the cottagers. 6 The meeting that Mark Wright went to, do 7 you know what meeting he was to go -- was going to at the 8 reference at 18:12, on page 68? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I'm not sure which meeting that 13 particular meeting was, or where exactly it was, but I'm 14 sure that he could share that with you. But what I do 15 know is, as he encountered the people who were assembled 16 at the MNR parking lot, he literally stumbled onto that 17 meeting. 18 That wasn't the meeting that he had 19 planned to -- to... 20 Q: To -- to attend? 21 A: Right. So when I spoke of his 22 interaction with the local residents who were discussing 23 marching into the Park, that was -- that occurred by 24 happenstance. 25 Q: And that was at the MNR parking lot?
871 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And then there's a note 18:37 hours: 3 "Mark Wright is at LIMA 2 talking to 4 Mayor Fred Thomas." 5 LIMA 2 was the name assigned to the ERT 6 sergeant in charge of the communications at the ERT TOC 7 centre in the -- the Ministry of Natural Resources 8 parking lot? 9 A: That's correct, sir. 10 Q: And LIMA 1 -- 11 A: Would be the sergeant, in charge of 12 ERT operations, who was actually in the command post in 13 Forest. 14 Q: And when you're in the command post 15 in Forest, when you were in that part of the trailer that 16 you used, the back part of the trailer, could you hear 17 the communications between the sergeant manning the -- I 18 take it he was manning the radio? 19 A: Right, well assisting there. There 20 would be a civilian radio operator, and the ERT sergeant, 21 both working there. 22 Q: And when someone called for LIMA 1, 23 who would they get? The civilian radio operator or the 24 sergeant? 25 A: Either of them could answer the
881 radio. 2 Q: And could you hear the radio when you 3 were in your part of the trailer? 4 A: It was possible if I took time to 5 listen. 6 Q: But you had to stop and listen to -- 7 A: Yeah. I mean I -- I could hear the 8 chatter going on in the other end of the trailer but I 9 would have to stop and pay attention in order to actually 10 pick up the -- the discussion. But I could make out what 11 was being said if -- if I chose to do that. 12 Q: Okay. And so it was reported to you 13 that Mark Wright was talking to Mayor Fred Thomas at the 14 MNR parking lot, and that's where the meeting was with 15 respect to the -- where the cottagers were? 16 A: That's right, sir. 17 Q: And you understood as a result of the 18 meeting that the cottagers were not going to go down to 19 the Park? 20 A: My understand was Detective Sergeant 21 Wright had persuaded them not to do that. 22 Q: Then there's a note: 23 "Kent Skinner advised John -- Carson to 24 inform Inspector Linton to not page us 25 from these phones, page us from the
891 Detachment phone." 2 And do you have any recollection today why 3 Kent Skinner asked you to do that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what was that? 6 A: It's a matter of the technology as 7 I'm sure you recall as we've listened to these 8 telephones. When you hear someone keying in the phone 9 number, and you hear the clicking sound of the phone 10 being cycled through with each key punch entry, the 11 pagers respond to the -- the -- the push button phone 12 tone. 13 So most of your phones have a different 14 tone with each number. The trailer -- the command 15 trailer didn't have that capability to have tones, so it 16 -- it sounds like a rotary dial is taking place. 17 You had to go into the Detachment to use a 18 phone that would actually have touch tone capability. 19 Q: So that you needed touch tone 20 capability to communicate with the TRU team pagers? 21 A: Well, the -- the TRU team pagers and 22 -- and any of the pagers where, if you left a phone -- 23 like, there's -- there's two (2) ways of paging someone. 24 You can page them and leave your number by keying it in 25 on a touch tone phone, or some you can leave a voice
901 message, some are capable of both. 2 If we were going to do a call out for TRU 3 there's one (1) number that we can call that does a group 4 page, but that group page has to be done from a touch 5 tone phone. 6 Q: I see. So that -- 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: -- the Detachment phones were touch 9 tone phones, but not in the command trailer? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Then at 18:42 there's a meeting, 12 Inspector Linton and Inspector Carson, that's you, Les 13 Kobayashi, and Marcel Beaubien? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And if I read these notes correctly, 16 that meeting went on for about twenty-five (25) minutes 17 until approximately 7:05 on page 71? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And can you tell us a little bit -- 20 first of all, why was Mr. Beaubien there in the command 21 trailer? 22 A: Well, he attended the command trailer 23 and he was there to discuss the issues as -- as he knew 24 it in regards to his constituents. 25 Q: Yes? And tell us a little bit about
911 this meeting from what you can recall. 2 A: Well, he attended the trailer and 3 Linton and Kobayashi were there as well, and he indicated 4 he had sent a fax to the Premier, and that he was looking 5 for a phone call in -- in regards to the contents of that 6 fax. 7 I informed him that there was a -- an 8 injunction going forward tomorrow morning at nine 9 o'clock, and he indicated he was aware of that, and he 10 wondered if there was anything we could do. 11 And I indicated to him that things were 12 moving towards the Court Order and -- and explained how 13 that works in relation to potential criminal charges. 14 And he raised the point that the property 15 owners are very concerned, they're frustrated, and feel 16 that they are not being treated equally, and I reinforced 17 that this is not a land claim issue, there's been no 18 legal claim to the -- to the Park. 19 And Kobayashi indicated that the -- the 20 property had been researched, and there was no burial 21 ground on that property. 22 Linton was there, he enquired if there was 23 any -- any commentary back from the Solicitor General and 24 Beaubien indicated that they had been meeting today. 25 And I indicated to Beaubien the background
921 of what had taken place; that we had Members in the Park, 2 and when the -- when the occupiers came into the Park we 3 had been outnumbered, and that the officers had been 4 swarmed, and why we had left the Park for safety reasons. 5 Q: And there's a note "Les Kobayashi was 6 present when the natives took over". 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: He was there in the Park? 9 A: Yes, he was. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: And I indicated that there were women 12 and children there, and that puts us in a very awkward 13 position; we're not just dealing with occupiers, but 14 we're dealing with women and -- and children. 15 And I certainly tried to reassure Beaubien 16 that we did appreciate -- understand the concerns of the 17 residents, and that we had approximately thirty (30) 18 people working at any given time, and that we had our 19 officers out talking to the residents to make sure they 20 knew we were there, and we had foot patrols being 21 completed around the area and, again, reinforced that the 22 issue of safety is important. 23 Beaubien indicated he didn't mind taking 24 controversy if the situation can't be handled by the 25 police services, something has to be done to handle the
931 situation. 2 And I again reassured him that we wanted 3 to get it resolved. We don't want anyone to get hurt. 4 We want to do everything we can to -- to stress that 5 point, nobody gets hurt. 6 I also stated, that you know, we had a lot 7 of good people working. We had two (2) ERT teams on the 8 ground and the officers were doing a good job. 9 Linton suggested to Mr. Beaubien that we 10 certainly appreciated his efforts, that -- and Beaubien 11 indicated he had been talking to Chief Chris Coles and 12 suggested that the MNR contact Coles so they're aware of 13 the situation, which -- which we certainly had been doing 14 anyway. 15 In that discussion around that, I pointed 16 out to Mr. Beaubien, you know, that once the Park's 17 clear, what happens after that? 18 And, his concern was about the residents 19 and I was trying to point out to him that once the Park 20 is cleared, we have a -- a Provincial Park that's closed 21 for the season and basically it's a hundred and nine 22 (109) acres of pine trees. 23 And, he -- Marcel Beaubien's concerned 24 about the residents, stated they had a meeting; a hundred 25 (100) or more residents turned out, very frustrated.
941 I instructed him to contact me if 2 something occurs. Or I'm sorry -- yes, to -- to contact 3 me something occurs and we'd try to find out about 4 things. Beaubien was curious about the feelings of the 5 Kettle Point people and I assured him we had been in 6 contact with Kettle Point. 7 And, it was very clear that -- from 8 Beaubien, these -- these residents were -- were getting 9 extremely anxious as I recall and Kobayashi indicated, in 10 the presence of Mr. Beaubien, that there was, you know, 11 good communication between the MNR and OPP. We were 12 working together trying to resolve this and Beaubien and 13 Mr. Kobayashi left at approximately 7:05 p.m. 14 Q: And, were you -- did you know whether 15 or not Mr. Kobayashi had been at the meeting at the MNR - 16 - not Mr. Kobayashi, Mr Beaubien, at the meeting in the - 17 - at the MNR parking lot? 18 A: I don't know if that's one and the 19 same meeting, quite frankly. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: But it was very clear that the 22 anxiety level was fairly significant. 23 Q: And, if I could take you to page 468 24 of Exhibit P-427, the handwritten notes for this meeting. 25
951 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I note that there is a -- some things 4 missing from the typewritten notes. For example, the 5 third paragraph down on page 458: 6 "J.C. --" 7 A: Where -- 8 Q: "-- normally tried to serve 9 then. Gives them chance to leave. 10 [Then something] They won't be 11 cooperative. [then] Sit down and talk 12 about peaceful resolution without 13 confrontation." 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: What was that about? 16 A: Well, it -- it appears at that point 17 I'm explaining to Beaubien the -- the process and, 18 basically, its -- its design of the project plan as the - 19 - as the steps when first, the trespassing -- request 20 people leave. If they refuse to leave, then it takes it 21 to another -- to another level. 22 Q: And then -- 23 A: But it certainly reinforces, again, 24 even with Mr. Beaubien about attempting to a peaceful 25 resolution without confrontation.
961 Q: And then, there's a note: 2 "M.B.: Anything else he can do?" 3 And then, there's a note that doesn't make 4 its way into the typed script -- written notes: 5 "J.C.: Now, movement is on. Once 6 court order achieved, Criminal Code can 7 be used. If they don't leave, C.C. [I 8 take it Criminal Code] offence?" 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: "If charged, they have to explain why 11 they should be released." 12 And, that's been omitted from the typed 13 notes and what was -- what were you referring to there? 14 A: Yes, that's the paragraph at the top 15 of page 70 that captures the essence of that. But what 16 I'm referring to here, now that movement is on, is that 17 there's movement to have the application for the 18 injunction tomorrow morning that there's movement towards 19 the injunction itself. 20 And that once the court order is achieved, 21 then the Criminal Code will apply. So, I was trying to 22 explain to him the differences between trespass and a 23 Court injunction. 24 Q: And then at the top of page 4 -- 469, 25 there's a line:
971 "M.B.: Is closer to private property." 2 And to you recall what Mr. Beaubien was 3 referring to there? 4 A: I'm not sure. He -- he indicated 5 just previous that there was concern by the property 6 owners feel -- they're frustrated, felt they were not 7 being treated equally then there's a comment that is 8 closer to private property. 9 I -- I'm not -- I can't recall 10 specifically to that comment other than that the Park's 11 closer to private property than the Military Base is, I 12 suspect. 13 Q: I misspoke myself. I think I said 14 four thirty-nine (439), it should be four sixty-nine 15 (469) for the purpose of the record and I apologize. 16 Then a little way -- the third note down 17 on that page, page 469 there's a note: 18 "Tom Bressette has no support for 19 incidents at the Park." 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And that's attributed to you? 22 A: Yes. I -- I would have certainly 23 expressed that. 24 Q: Did you express that on the day -- on 25 September 6th?
981 A: It's captured in the hand notes of 2 the scribe and I would suggest it's accurate. 3 Q: Then at page 470 there's a note, the 4 second entry down, there's a reference to the women and 5 children and being in a tough position. Then: 6 "J.C.: Have to be there to appreciate 7 position." 8 And that's not in the typed notes, but 9 what were you referring to there? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I'm not sure, sir. 14 Q: Okay. Then the next paragraph down. 15 It relates to: 16 "Thirty (30) people are on the ground 17 always. Having members talked to 18 residents; let them know we are close 19 by. Foot patrols around residences." 20 Then there's a note: 21 "Someone can get here easy." 22 A: No, some -- someone can get hurt 23 easy. 24 Q: "Someone can get hurt easy." 25 And that did not make its way directly
991 into the typewritten notes, but what were you referring 2 to there? 3 A: It's just that given the 4 circumstances here, it wouldn't be difficult for somebody 5 to get hurt and we certainly had enough experience the 6 last couple of days where there had been altercations and 7 we didn't want to precipitate that if we could avoid it. 8 Q: And then on page 471 there's a note 9 the third note on the page. 10 "Once cleared what happens after that? 11 Do we put fifty (50) officers there 12 every day?" 13 And the part, "do we put fifty (50) 14 officers there every day", is not in the typed written 15 notes but what are you referring to there? 16 A: Well, to my point earlier about once 17 the Park is cleared and -- and now we have a -- a closed 18 Park, that, you know, if we're going to maintain the Park 19 closed and not have a -- an injunction, it's going to 20 require police officers to protect it. 21 So, you know, if we don't go through this 22 process, what are you -- what are you going to do? Have 23 fifty (50) officers sitting there everyday to -- to 24 ensure no one comes in? Like it just doesn't make any 25 sense.
1001 Q: So, that in the fall -- in September 2 of 1974, the Park was, as of September the 4th, was 3 closed. 4 A: Yes, it was. 5 Q: And so if the Park was cleared, it 6 was a Park that was closed for the season and the 7 officers would be there guarding, as you put it, the 8 trees? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Then there's a note, the next note, 11 that the: 12 "M.B.: Concerned about residents. Had 13 meeting Saturday" 14 So, that's -- that did not get into the 15 notes but the meeting was on the Saturday? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: "One hundred (100) or more very 18 frustrated. Advise me if something 19 occurs and I'll find out about it. 20 They have to understand the law. 21 And the reference, "they have to 22 understand the law", is not carried through to the notes, 23 but this -- according to this note appears to be 24 something being said by Mr. Beaubien? 25 A: Correct, that's what it appears.
1011 Q: And -- 2 A: I made some assumption earlier. I 3 was of the impression from the typed notes that, "advised 4 me", as in myself, if something occurs and in fact, from 5 the handwritten notes, it's actually Beaubien offering to 6 -- to look -- to try to find out information if we have 7 something happening. 8 Q: And I take it from this note, it's 9 for -- really for the residents? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yeah. And, "they have to understand 12 the law"; what -- do you have any recollection today of 13 what that reference was to? 14 A: No, I don't recall that particular 15 discussion, but I suspect he's talking about the fact 16 that the occupiers have to understand the law. 17 Q: And then there's a note, 18 "J.C.: Keeping in touch with them to 19 get their feelings. Seemed to be..." 20 And then: 21 "...seemed to be against this, even 22 relatives." 23 And I take it that's responding with 24 respect to the Kettle Point issue? 25 A: Yes, sir.
1021 Q: And the words, "seemed to be against 2 this, even relatives", did not get into the scribe notes? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And that's based on the information 5 you obtained from where? 6 A: Well, from numerous sources, 7 actually. Not any one in particular; certainly from 8 discussions with Tom Bressette and from other people who 9 had talked to numerous individuals in the community. 10 Q: Okay. Then if I could take you back 11 to page 69. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And there's a note in the second 16 paragraph: 17 "Marcel Beaubien advised that he had 18 sent a fax to the Premier advising of 19 his intentions and that he wanted a 20 return call regarding his intentions." 21 Do you see that? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And the note at page 468 says: 24 "Marcel Beaubien made fax. Sent to 25 Premier."
1031 Then there's an arrow. 2 "Five (5) minutes after [something]" 3 There's something missing, can you read 4 that? 5 A: Probably, "after sent". 6 Q: Sent? 7 A: And call. 8 Q: Call -- 9 A: Stated they will be on it. So -- 10 Q: Stated they will be on it. 11 And who did you understand was being 12 referred to when Mr. Beaubien said that to you? 13 A: I would suspect that he had some 14 staff from the Premier's office calling back to Beaubien. 15 Q: Okay. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: There's, at page 471 of the 20 handwritten notes there's a reference: 21 "Premier is in constant touch. Good 22 communications." 23 Do you see that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And, that note didn't find its way
1041 into the typed scribe notes; is that correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And that's something that's 4 attributed to Mr. Beaubien? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: And what, if anything, did you take 7 from that back in September 1995? 8 A: Quite frankly, I didn't take much 9 from it at all. It's just a matter of his commentary 10 that he had been in communication with the Premier's 11 office and he was communicating to me the information as 12 he knew it. It was just further information about what 13 he had been doing personally. 14 Q: And, after Mr. Beaubien and Mr. 15 Kobayashi left the command post, did you and Mr. Linton 16 have a discussion about the attendance of Mr. Beaubien? 17 A: I don't recall any particular 18 discussion specific to Mr. Beaubien. 19 Q: And, do you recall having any 20 discussion with Mr. Linton -- Inspector Linton, excuse me 21 -- about the issue of -- that Mr. Beaubien had raised 22 about the Premier in this meeting that you just had with 23 Mr. Beaubien and the interest of the Premier according to 24 Mr. Beaubien? 25 A: I don't believe we discussed that
1051 point again. 2 Q: And did you discuss with Inspector 3 Linton, the telephone call that you had received from Ron 4 Fox on the after -- at approximately two o'clock on 5 September 6th? 6 A: I don't believe so. Shortly after -- 7 Mr. Beaubien left at five (5) minutes after 7:00 and 8 you'll see from the notes that at 19:10, we're into a 9 briefing and that's Dale Linton and myself. And I'm 10 basically briefing him on the operational matters that 11 are occurring that day. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Inspector Linton, as we know from 16 what you've said, was at the meeting with respect to -- 17 with Mr. Beaubien where Mr. Beaubien raised the -- the 18 issue -- the issue of the Premier. 19 My question was, and obviously I didn't 20 make it clear, after the meeting, did you and Linton 21 discuss the fact that the Premier seemed to be interested 22 in this issue? 23 A: No, I don't recall any discussion on 24 that point. 25 Q: Okay. And the --
1061 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 2 Sulman? 3 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Commissioner, I 4 think we just a revision in the evidence and I just want 5 to hear that again. The Witness said that Mr. Beaubien 6 did not raise the issue of the Premier in this meeting 7 and -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Hmm hmm, he did. 9 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I think he said the 10 opposite. He said they didn't have a discussion about 11 the interest of the Premier at this meeting. 12 Now, if I misheard that, that's -- that's 13 fine, but I don't think that that's what the 14 evidence was. And then Mr. Millar, after having heard 15 from another Counsel, then asked the question, Mr. Linton 16 was there at the meeting and raised the issue of -- where 17 the issue of the interest of the Premier was raised. 18 I thought the evidence I heard, was it 19 wasn't raised at this meeting. That they didn't speak 20 about that. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay, the -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 23 to straighten that out, Mr. Millar? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'll 25 straighten -- the -- there was a meeting between
1071 Inspector Linton and -- and then Inspector Carson, Mr. 2 Kobayashi, and Marcel Beaubien. 3 THE WITNESS: Correct. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And if you 5 don't agree with any of this, you'd better say so. 6 THE WITNESS: I would say so. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we've just gone 8 through the meeting and the handwritten notes that refer 9 to a fax to the Premier, and that the Premier, according 10 to Marcel Beaubien in the handwritten notes, and I'll go 11 to that. 12 There were two (2) references to the -- 13 there are a number of -- there's a reference to the 14 Premier in the typed scribe notes. Then at page 468, 15 there's a note: 16 "Fax sent to Premier five (5) minutes 17 after. Sent, called, and stated that 18 they will be on it." 19 And I took the witness to that. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. Yeah. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then at the -- 22 page 472, during the meeting between Kobayashi, Marcel 23 Beaubien, Dep -- Inspector -- Deputy Carson, as Inspector 24 Carson as he then was, and Inspector Linton, Marcel 25 Beaubien is reported to have said:
1081 "Premier is in constant touch. Good 2 communications." 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And that's happened at 5 the meeting with Beaubien, Linton, Kobayashi, and 6 yourself? 7 THE WITNESS: Correct. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 That's your understanding? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Then -- 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Then where this 13 confusion has arisen. After this meeting with the four 14 (4) people, when you were meeting with -- after they 15 left, Kobayashi and the Premier, I asked the question 16 if -- 17 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: We'll stop there. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: After the meeting -- 19 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I -- 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: After the meeting 21 between Kobayashi and Beaubien, I asked the question of 22 the witness, did he and Linton raise -- discuss the issue 23 of the interest of the Premier and he said, no. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 25 right.
1091 THE WITNESS: Correct. 2 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Exactly. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And that's all I was 4 doing and my -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I haven't 6 heard anything contrary. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then Mr. Ross said 8 he was -- Linton was at the meeting, and the -- but Mr. 9 Ross was -- misunderstood the question that I had asked 10 the witness. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 12 any discrepancy. If you do, perhaps you -- 13 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I don't now that -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 15 fine. 16 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I don't -- I'm not 17 sure I'm coming clear. I don't now, Mr. Commissioner, 18 that Mr. Millar has gone back over it, some others might, 19 now that he's gone back over and clarified it. 20 And account -- and Mr. Carson, in fact, 21 just to clarify again, said it was the Premier's office, 22 those were his words -- that he was concerned. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Somebody 24 from his staff. Thank you. 25 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Your Honour, I just
1101 wanted to make the record clear. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The record -- the 3 record will speak for itself. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 5 understand I don't need all this help from all the 6 Counsel now, I really don't. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 9 the record is quite clear. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, the record can 11 speak for itself and -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's go on. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 15 something you need to say now, Mr. Falconer? 16 OBJ MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. Mr. 17 Commissioner, I'm not going to engage in the exercise of 18 going back over what's already on the record, and what 19 I'm objecting to is that exercise in this fashion where 20 words are now, in retrospect, trying to be put in the 21 witness' mouth. 22 So I'm objecting to previous Counsel's 23 last statement because that's just not a way to give -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right -- 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- evidence.
1111 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it's 2 not helpful to do it this way. 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're fine, 5 let's move on. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's just 8 carry on with the evidence. The evidence will speak for 9 itself. I appreciate the assistance of all Counsel to 10 explain the evidence as it's going through, but we're 11 doing just fine. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: You had a briefing with Inspector 17 Linton at 7:10 on the evening of September the 6th? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And can you tell us about that 20 briefing? 21 A: Yes, I spoke to Inspector Linton and 22 apprised him that tomorrow morning there was going to be 23 an injunction hearing in Sarnia at nine o'clock and that 24 Detective Sergeant Mark Wright would be the 25 representative to give evidence on behalf of the police.
1121 I updated him on how to go about paging 2 TRU, if that was necessary, using the telephones; about 3 the video from the aircraft, and that most of the people 4 -- the occupiers had been identified, and that tomorrow 5 morning at seven o'clock, concrete barriers would be 6 placed at the east end of Ipperwash beach, and there 7 would be a two (2) man team in the dark. 8 And we had some discussion about the 9 gunfire that occurred overnight, around automatic gunfire 10 versus -- clarified that it -- simply gunfire; we weren't 11 able to establish one way or the other. 12 That Nomex coveralls were enroute from 13 Edmonton. That the media centre was being moved to the 14 old Pinery Park Detachment. That the ASP batons had been 15 received and distributed, and everyone had been trained. 16 That Chief Coles and Superintendent Parkin 17 had been at the office -- or at the trailer today. There 18 were three (3) canine units had arrived from Districts 1, 19 2, and 6. And we've identified four (4) members to 20 operate the light armoured vehicles. 21 And Bill Dennis would be -- provide a new 22 list of officers who are involved, from a logistics point 23 of view. And I reported that there had been a small fire 24 approximately one (1) hour ago near the back of the camp. 25 Q: And when you say the Camp, what are
1131 you referring to? 2 A: The Military Base. 3 Q: The Military Base? And did you go 4 off duty at that point? 5 A: I believe this is the time I leave 6 for the evening. 7 Q: And when you left the command post, 8 at approximately what time did you leave? It's not noted 9 here but... 10 A: It had to be, approximately, I would 11 suspect twenty (20) after to 7:30 p.m. 12 Q: And what instructions, if any, had 13 you given to Inspector Linton, with respect to taking 14 action, with respect to the occupiers, in the Park? 15 A: I had given him no instructions in 16 regard to any action inside the Park. 17 Q: And what was your expectation when 18 you left the command post on the evening of September the 19 6th? 20 A: My expectations, it would be a status 21 quo, it would be similar to the evening prior. We -- we 22 would maintain the checkpoints and the patrols, and 23 monitor with night vision, as it's outlined here in the 24 briefing, the equipment we had, and basically sit tight. 25 We're -- See what happens with the injunction in the
1141 morning. 2 Q: And had you been given -- you 3 personally been given, as Incident Commander, any 4 instructions by 7:30 when you left the evening of 5 September the 6th to remove the occupiers from the Park? 6 A: Absolutely not. 7 Q: And the reference will be, "a two (2) 8 man team in the dark"; what does that refer to? 9 A: I'm not sure if I'm speaking about 10 two (2) person vehicles or if it's two (2) person foot 11 patrols, but basically it's that the officers will 12 operate in pairs. 13 Q: Okay. But in the dark, where were 14 they going to be? 15 A: Well where -- wherever they were 16 assigned. There were going to be some assigned to -- 17 with night vision equipment, to monitor activity around 18 the cottages. 19 Q: And you told, as you note in your 20 briefing, Inspection Linton that the court proceeding was 21 going to proceed at nine o'clock on September the 7th? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And that was with respect to 24 obtaining an injunction? 25 A: Yes, sir.
1151 Q: Now at 7:30 on the evening of 2 September the 6th, when you went off duty, what planning 3 had you done, and with respect to what you would do, if a 4 court injunction was granted and there was a requirement 5 that the OPP take action with respect to the occupiers of 6 the Park? 7 A: At this point that was premature. We 8 actually had no specific plans relative to the court 9 injunction because, quite frankly, we had no idea what 10 the court injunction may direct. 11 Q: And so that there was no -- at this 12 point, no planning as to what would happen and that 13 planning would take place after an injunction were 14 granted if an injunction were granted? 15 A: Right. That would be the next step, 16 depending on the outcome of the injunction. 17 Q: And -- now, there's a couple of 18 things I wanted to ask you about. 19 If you had been made aware prior to going 20 off duty... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Had you been made aware -- no. So, 25 you went off duty at 7:30?
1161 A: Correct, approximately. 2 Q: And what did you then do? 3 A: I went to a private residence in 4 Forest for dinner. 5 Q: And how far away were you from the 6 Detachment? 7 A: Possibly, one (1) kilometre. 8 Q: A kilometre? And what did you do 9 when you got to the private residence for dinner? How 10 long were you there before you received a contact? 11 A: I wasn't there very long, because I 12 certainly hadn't finished my meal. 13 Q: And, what happened -- what was the 14 first thing that happened? 15 A: I got a call from -- or a page, I 16 believe it was -- from Detective Sergeant Mark Wright. 17 And -- 18 Q: You received a page from him? 19 A: I -- I believe I was paged by Mark 20 Wright and I called him back. 21 Q: Okay. And, we have at Tab 48 of the 22 book of transcripts and the -- the same transcript 23 appears twice at Tab 48 and Tab 49, that -- and it's -- 24 the telephone call is at -- it's call number 44 and call 25 number 45, they're the same call.
1171 And, they're -- it's noted -- although 2 one's noted at 19:58 and one's noted at 19:59 on the 3 list, Carson Master Complete Final, on the transcripts 4 they're both noted at 19:58:39 in one (1) case and 5 19:58:50 a few seconds later in the other case. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 8 9 John CARSON and Mark WRIGHT 10 September 6, 1995 11 TIME: 19.58.39 hours 12 Track 1.wav 13 14 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN. 15 CARSON: Hi it's John CARSON here, how are you? 16 PETERMAN: Not too bad. 17 CARSON: Is Mark WRIGHT there? 18 PETERMAN: Ah yeah hold on a minute okay? 19 CARSON: Thank you 20 WRIGHT: Hi John. 21 CARSON: Hi how are you doing? 22 WRIGHT: Well not bad, we got a bit of a situation 23 here. 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 WRIGHT: Right at the curve there where the picnic
1181 tables are... 2 CARSON: Right. 3 WRIGHT: I just I took care of the public for now, 4 but if we don't deal this we're (I/A) 5 (background radio transmissions) 6 WRIGHT: They got about eight of them there with 7 baseball bats right on the road edge you 8 know. 9 CARSON: Well who are they? 10 WRIGHT: Well I don't know just a bunch of Natives 11 you know what I mean. 12 CARSON: Oh, oh I see oh they're out on the ah 13 road. 14 WRIGHT: Right just on the edge okay. 15 CARSON: Yeah. 16 WRIGHT: The school buses roaring around... 17 CARSON: Yeah. 18 WRIGHT: And ah ah I told the two checkpoints and 19 ah I didn't get I got ah the one at the 20 top year twenty-one. 21 CARSON: Yeah. 22 WRIGHT: And and Zack comes back and he says we 23 just got a vehicle it's been pelted with 24 mischief... oh hang on a sec, what? 25 Background: (Okay the school bus and the dump truck
1191 are looking like they're moving toward the 2 roadway now.) 3 WRIGHT: The school bus and the dump truck look 4 like they're moving towards the road now, 5 so they're going to try and take that 6 position again, we got that house there... 7 CARSON: Okay. 8 WRIGHT: We got the whole day shift ERT Team here 9 and Canine. 10 CARSON: Okay, just just ah... 11 Background: (I/A radio transmission) 12 WRIGHT: Just (I/A) 13 CARSON: Yeah. 14 WRIGHT: I got listen here well if if those people 15 can identify the guys who threw rocks, we 16 can do something but if they can't then 17 they're not doing anything wrong. 18 CARSON: Well if they if they're going out there 19 with baseball bats you got them for weapon 20 dangers. 21 WRIGHT: You got them for weapon dangers, you got 22 them for ah you got them for fucking 23 mischief to the road, you got them for 24 unlawful assembly, we got that house right 25 next door. The the br we got they got the
1201 school bus there and the dump truck right 2 there moving moving towards the roadway. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 WRIGHT: So... 5 CARSON: Are they are they coming out of the park? 6 WRIGHT: I don't know yet...we got anymore are they 7 out? 8 Background: (I/A) info now.) 9 WRIGHT: We want to be...wha a sit (I/A) on those 10 things the instant that they move out, I 11 want to know about it. 12 Background: (I/A radio transmission) 13 WRIGHT: And I got the whole day shift here with 14 Canine. 15 CARSON: Okay so what's Dale want to do then? 16 WRIGHT: Oh fuck I don't know, waffle, I'll be here 17 till fucking daylight figuring it out and 18 daylight's a waste then. 19 CARSON: Okay well you let me know if you want me 20 to come back. 21 WRIGHT: Well don't you want to be briefed about 22 the citizens? 23 CARSON: Well I do but ah... 24 WRIGHT: Let him run it. 25 CARSON: We got, to get, we got to get together and
1211 talk about your meeting tomorrow morning. 2 WRIGHT: Yeah okay well where are you? 3 CARSON: Well I'm having dinner right now. 4 WRIGHT: Where at ah... 5 CARSON: I'm in town here. 6 WRIGHT: For at Forest/ 7 CARSON: Yeah at ah at a residence. 8 WRIGHT: Okay well...what if he asked me what did 9 you say what do you want me to tell him? 10 CARSON: Well it's it's not my (I/A) 11 WRIGHT: Don't you say we go get those fucking 12 guys? 13 CARSON: Well we got to deal with them we can't let 14 them out in that area with that stuff. 15 WRIGHT: No. 16 CARSON: So if he wants I'll come back...but he's 17 got to make that call for me to come back. 18 WRIGHT: Okay. 19 CARSON: That's his problem. 20 WRIGHT: Alright. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 WRIGHT: Okay. 23 CARSON: But if not ah I'll meet you over at the 24 motel here in a while... 25 WRIGHT: I'll see you there.
1221 CARSON: Ah... 2 WRIGHT: Is that what you said, you were broken a 3 bit. 4 CARSON: Yeah. 5 WRIGHT: Yeah. 6 CARSON: How about quarter to nine. 7 WRIGHT: Pardon me? 8 CARSON: Quarter to nine. 9 WRIGHT: Ah if I'm out of here. 10 CARSON: Okay well you call me if not okay, I'm on 11 I'm on my cell phone. 12 WRIGHT: Okay and that give it to me again John 13 your cell phone. 14 CARSON: Ah 671... 15 WRIGHT: Yeah. 16 CARSON: 6086. 17 WRIGHT: 6086. 18 CARSON: Yeah. 19 WRIGHT: He's calling out TRU...(loud humming 20 noise) okay so I'll call you ah at what 21 time if I'm not there? 22 CARSON: Quarter to nine. 23 WRIGHT: Okay. 24 CARSON: If if if he if he's calling out TRU... 25 WRIGHT: Yeah.
1231 CARSON: You advise him I should be notified. 2 WRIGHT: Okay. 3 CARSON: Okay? 4 WRIGHT: Will do. 5 CARSON: Alright. 6 WRIGHT: Okay bye. 7 End of Conversation 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And, if I might, just listening to 11 that and you -- I don't know if you picked it up as well, 12 at the bottom of page 309 Mr. Wright says, and the 13 conversation: 14 "I don't know waffle." 15 It sounded like, "we'll be here," instead 16 of, "I'll be here." 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then, he goes on to say in the 19 next line: 20 "And daylight's a-wasting [and not] a 21 daylight a waste then." 22 A: Correct. And, he also indicated just 23 a couple -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm sorry, I missed 25 that last one, I apologize.
1241 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Yes, it's -- I think it should say, 3 from the telephone conversation we just heard. 4 "Daylight's a-wasting." 5 A: If we just backup two (2) 6 conversations earlier where he says, We want to be and he 7 -- it says, "a sit" and then there's, "inaudible," it's a 8 sit rep -- situation report. 9 Q: Oh, we want to be -- a sit rep? 10 A: Rep, R-E-P -- situation report. 11 Q: Okay. And then, I'll come back to 12 that, but then on page 312 there's a -- Mr. Wright -- 13 Staff Sergeant Wright said he's calling out TRU and then 14 there was your voice, Carson, and the word was, "what?" 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then, he comes back on and says: 17 "Okay." 18 Inspector Wright comes back on and says: 19 "So, I will call you at what time if 20 you're not -- if I'm not there?" 21 But that followed your, "what?" 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: Now, the -- Detective Sergeant Wright 24 tells you that there's a "bit of a situation right at the 25 curve there where the picnic tables are" and perhaps we
1251 could simply -- and where did you understand the -- Mr. 2 Wright to be referring to? 3 A: In the area right off the paved 4 portion of the roadway; in this general area here. 5 Q: In the general area off the pavement 6 in the sandy parking lot? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: That was your understanding of the 9 area where he said that there were people standing? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And -- and he said there were eight 12 (8) people there with baseball bats on the road edge. 13 A: Correct. It's probably -- it's hard 14 to tell with this picture but it looks like the asphalt's 15 more closer where that checkpoint dot is. It's probably 16 actually closer here. 17 Q: So, you were -- you thought that it 18 was as he says here, it was your understanding and all I 19 want is your understanding that they were closer to the 20 asphalt where the people were standing as reported in 21 this telephone call? 22 A: Yes, it appears to be in close 23 proximity to the asphalt surface. 24 Q: And perhaps we could move that 25 location of people standing and put a note beside it,
1261 19.58.39. 2 And then at this point in time, checkpoint 3 'A' had been moved back, it was no longer right at the 4 intersection? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Then he says that: 7 "The school bus is roaring around." 8 Then he says: 9 "I told the two (2) checkpoints and I 10 didn't get -- I got the one at the top. 11 Yeah, twenty-one (21)." 12 And then he says: 13 "And Zack comes back and he says 'We 14 just got a vehicle", it's been pelted 15 with mischief. Oh, hang on a sec, 16 what?" 17 What was your understanding of that advice 18 from Mr. -- Staff Sergeant Wright? 19 A: In regards -- in regards to the 20 vehicle? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: That's all I had is that one (1) 23 sentence. I -- I really didn't know the extent of what - 24 - what had occurred yet. 25 Q: Is pelted with mischief mean
1271 something to police officers? 2 A: Well it would appear that when -- 3 when -- that it would be for instance, a rock throwing 4 incident where a number of rocks would have been thrown 5 at it or -- or a baseball bat taken to -- to an object 6 for a number of strikes, that kind of thing. 7 Q: And then there's -- did you hear the 8 background as we heard it here about the school bus and 9 the dump truck? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: "And moving towards the roadway now." 12 What did you understand was being referred to there? 13 It's at the top of page 308. 14 A: Right. But the reason I'm looking on 15 further here, my question to him was are they coming out 16 of the Park? 17 I'm just trying to get a sense from Wright 18 as to exactly what's happening. Because I -- I was -- 19 wasn't really clear whether the bus was out of the Park 20 or the people were out of the Park or -- or exactly what 21 was happening. 22 But it's kind of obvious from the activity 23 in the background there was some significant activity 24 occurring. 25 Q: And he says at the top of page 309
1281 simply that they're moving towards the roadway and I -- 2 did you -- where did you place the school bus and the 3 dump truck? 4 Where did you understand they were at this 5 point in time? 6 A: Well it appeared that the vehicles 7 were coming out of the Park into the sandy parking lot. 8 Q: That was your understanding? 9 A: That's, you know, in the mind's eye 10 that's my best guess. 11 Q: Or inside the Park going to the edge 12 of the Park? 13 A: I simply didn't know, that's why the 14 next question is to, you know, are they coming out of the 15 Park? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: Cause he says moving towards the 18 roadway, and as I knew it, certainly the roadway, what I 19 would perceive the -- refer to as roadway is the asphalt 20 portion of that intersection as it sweeps around the 21 corner. 22 Q: All right. And then you asked the 23 question: 24 "Are they coming out of the Park. I 25 don't know yet. We got any more? Are
1291 they out?" 2 And then: 3 "We want to be right -- we want to be, 4 well, a sit rep on those things, the 5 instant that they move out, I want to 6 know about it." 7 And what is a sit rep? 8 A: Situation report. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: So it's a status update. 11 Q: Status update. Then you ask the 12 question: 13 "So what -- what's Dale want to do 14 then?" 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And he appears -- he says: 17 " I don't -- among other things I don't 18 know waffle. We will be here until 19 fucking daylight figuring it out, and 20 daylight's a-wasting." 21 Is it fair to say that Mr. -- Staff 22 Sergeant Wright was concerned about Mr. -- Inspector 23 Linton making a decision? 24 A: It appeared he was upset about time 25 being wasted, yes.
1301 Q: And time being wasted is daylight 2 time, is that your understanding? 3 A: Particularly, yes. 4 Q: But at this point in time, the school 5 bus and the dump truck have not come out of the Park 6 according to Staff Sergeant Wright? 7 A: That's certainly my sense of it, yes. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And that's why I suggested we would 10 talk about it further and we needed to talk about his 11 evidence and, quite frankly, what was happening right 12 there was Inspector Linton's call and I think I went into 13 some discussion, well, you know, if he wants some advice 14 from me, have him give me a call. 15 Q: But you ask him, you say that you 16 tell Mr. Wright that he seemed to want to brief you about 17 the citizens and you said that can wait until the 18 morning? 19 At the top of page 310? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: And then why did you say -- no -- at 22 the bottom of the page he says: 23 "Don't you say we go get those fucking 24 guys?" 25 What did you take from that?
1311 A: Well, I got a sense that he felt we 2 should go and remove them. 3 Q: Remove who? 4 A: Remove the occupiers from the sandy 5 parking lot. 6 Q: The eight (8) people he had talked to 7 you about? 8 A: Correct, with the baseball bats. 9 Q: Okay. And you say: 10 "Well, we got to deal with them. We 11 can't let them out in that area with 12 that stuff." 13 What were you referring to as "that 14 stuff"? 15 A: The baseball bats. 16 Q: The baseball bats? 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: And then you say: 19 "So if he wants, I'll come back but 20 he's got to make that call for me to 21 come back, okay? 22 Carson: That's his problem. 23 Wright: All right." 24 And why was that? 25 A: Well, he's the inspector in charge at
1321 that moment and if he wants my assistance, I was 2 suggesting to Wright that he recommend to Linton to call 3 me in. 4 Q: And so it was up to Linton to make 5 the decision whether or not he would call you back? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And would you have -- under what 8 circumstances would you have gone -- gone back if -- as 9 an incident commander, under what circumstances would an 10 incident commander return after going off duty and there 11 was another person relieving him as incident commander? 12 A: Normally, you don't go back. 13 Q: Normally, you don't go back. 14 A: But, I have to tell you that when I 15 was advised that he was calling out TRU, it certainly 16 caused me some concern. 17 Q: I was going to get to that next. 18 Then Mr. Wright says: 19 "He's calling out TRU." 20 And we hear you in the background, 21 "What?", and it certainly appeared on the radio that on 22 the tape you were surprised? 23 A: That would be an understatement. 24 Q: And why were you surprised? 25 A: Well, I -- I was certainly taken that
1331 given what Mark Wright had shared with me would require a 2 tactical response. 3 Q: Could you repeat that again, please? 4 A: I was certainly taken that given what 5 Mark Wright had shared with me in regards to the people 6 on the roadway, that that would be something requiring a 7 tactical response. I -- I just -- I just -- I just 8 couldn't connect the dots. It didn't make any sense. 9 Like, a tactical response is a significant step. 10 Q: Okay. So that when you say you, 11 "didn't connect the dots," it -- that you didn't think 12 that the tactical rescue unit should be called out with 13 respect to eight (8) people on the edge of the road in 14 the sandy parking lot? 15 A: The criteria for calling out a 16 tactical team normally involves a threat to life. 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: And, people on the roadway with a 19 baseball bat falls far short of that criteria. 20 So, in -- in my mind, the big question for 21 me is, what is so serious here that now we've jumped from 22 checkpoints to a tactical response for people who are out 23 on the roadway with baseball bats. It just -- it just 24 made no sense to me. 25 Q: And, I guess my -- what I was having
1341 -- I misunderstood was, when you say, "tactical 2 response," you're really referring to calling out the TRU 3 team? 4 A: Oh, yes, I'm sorry. That's correct. 5 Q: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I want to 7 get to a lunch break now. I don't want to break this 8 right in the middle, but I do want to try to get to a 9 lunch break. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. I'll be just a 11 few minutes. Thank you, sir. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: So, you were -- it's fair to say you 15 were concerned about what Mr. Wright said to you -- Staff 16 Sergeant Wright? 17 A: It -- it certainly raised my anxiety 18 level significantly. 19 Q: And so, you say to him: 20 "If he's calling out TRU --" 21 "Yeah," [Wright says.] 22 Carson: You advise him that I should 23 be notified." 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: So, you expected Mr. -- Staff
1351 Sergeant Wright to notify you if the TRU team would be 2 called out? 3 A: And, in particular, make sure that 4 Inspector Linton clearly understood if he was making that 5 call, he should be advising me of that was -- was 6 basically what I was asking. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And, if -- if I could also just 9 comment that I just -- 10 Q: Sure. 11 Q: As I was thinking about your 12 question, regarding Mark Wright's comment about the -- 13 the meeting at the parking lot, we had made arrangements 14 to -- to meet at a quarter to 9:00 in regards to the 15 injunction issue. So, I was going to get apprised on 16 that a little bit later so -- 17 Q: Oh, at the nine o'clock -- the 18 injunction meeting? 19 A: Right. So, I certainly knew we were 20 going to have an opportunity to have some discussion that 21 I just was of the view that it could wait for an hour or 22 so. 23 Q: Or, as you say, We got to get 24 together and talk about your meeting tomorrow meeting, 25 that's what you say there.
1361 A: Right. 2 Q: I'm just referring to telephone 3 calls, not... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we'll take the 8 lunch break now. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Falconer 10 was trying to get your attention a few minutes ago, so 11 perhaps you could talk to him during the break -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- briefly 14 and just...thank you very much. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 16 adjourned until 1:20. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 12:06 p.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 1:21 p.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed. Please be seated. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good
1371 afternoon. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Deputy Carson, if I could take you 5 back to Tab 48 in the Book of Transcripts, page 310. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: The third entry down: 8 "We got to get -- we got to get 9 together and talk about your meeting 10 tomorrow morning." 11 What are you referring to there? 12 A: I'm talking about the meeting that 13 Mark Wright and I were going to have, I believe it was at 14 quarter to 9:00 later on that evening. We were going to 15 meet and discuss his appearance in regards to the 16 Injunction Hearing the next morning. 17 Q: And you said before lunch that you 18 did not -- you were concerned about the TRU team and you 19 indicated that about -- you gave your evidence with 20 respect to whether or not it was appropriate. 21 What response, if any, did you think was 22 appropriate? 23 A: Well, I -- I didn't have any 24 difficulty with -- with a response being taken in regards 25 to the individuals being on the parking lot with the
1381 baseball bats. 2 The point I was trying to make is that the 3 tactical team, the tactics and rescue unit would not be 4 the appropriate individuals to be doing that. It would 5 be a matter for the ERT team, the people who were 6 providing checkpoints, to deal with that. 7 It was just a matter of -- it -- it's a 8 matter of simply going in and making arrests of people 9 who are out in that parking lot, the -- the ERT officers 10 certainly could do that. It's certainly not a task that 11 requires the level of expertise and the -- the -- of a 12 TRU team. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: So, certainly -- it's a matter of 15 using the right tools for the right job. 16 Q: Yes. And then if you could go to Tab 17 50, after your discussion with Mark Wright, you remained 18 having your dinner? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And there's a -- at Tab 50 there is a 21 transcript at 20:11:40, Dale Linton paging John Carson, 22 and this simply reads: 23 "Paging. Thank you for calling McLean 24 Hunter." 25 It should be:
1391 "Paging. Please leave a short message 2 after the tone. 3 Linton: Yeah, John we've called Dale 4 at the command post." 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: Did you get that page? 7 A: I believe so, yes. 8 Q: And what did you do next? 9 A: I returned the call. 10 Q: And is that the call that appears in 11 the Book of Transcripts at Tab 51; a call at 20.13.27 12 hours? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends, 15 that is call number 46 on the Carson master list. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 18 19 Dale LINTON and John CARSON 20 September 6, 1995 21 TIME: 20.13.27 hours 22 Track 1.wav 23 24 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN. 25 CARSON: Hi it's John CARSON here ah Dale LINTON
1401 ASKED FOR ME. 2 PETERMAN: Pardon me. 3 CARSON: Dale LINTON please. 4 PETERMAN: Yeah just a moment. 5 LINTON: John. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 LINTON: Yeah we're heating up big time, I just 8 thought I would let you know we ah, we've 9 got about eight guys on the road right 10 down at the end of Army Camp Road, same 11 place where the fire was and the car come 12 around there and they apparently damaged 13 it, we're getting the statement now and 14 they wouldn't let it through I guess 15 and... 16 CARSON: What a private vehicle? 17 LINTON: Yeah. 18 LINTON: Yeah and ah so we just got a statement now 19 she says that they were hassling her. 20 Mark WRIGHT come through and ah they told 21 him they didn't know he was a cop or else 22 get the hell out of there and now they've 23 got the school bus down in the corner, 24 they're bringing a dump truck in...they're 25 in the kiosk with the windows down so
1411 they're they're waiting for us to do 2 something, so I just they called the 3 T.R.U. Team in and ah what we're 4 gonna...well I'll till I get the 5 statement, we're probably going to go down 6 and arrest that group of ah eight or so 7 people blocking the roadway and there's no 8 doubt that ah you know they're they're 9 waiting for something so it's it's a 10 little bit vulnerable so I'll suit the 11 T.R.U. up heavy and ah...put them in, so 12 they're on route here now, so... 13 CARSON: (I/A) 14 LINTON: Pardon...can't hear you. 15 CARSON: (I/A( are you. 16 LINTON: Can't...can't hear you. 17 CARSON: Are you telling me you got the T.R.U. 18 Team? Can you hear me Dale. 19 Linton Just...(what do you want) 20 (Background...The speaker (I/A) 21 LINTON: John. 22 CARSON: Yeah. 23 LINTON: I can't hear you. 24 CARSON: I'll call you on a hard line. 25 LINTON: Okay.
1421 CARSON: Okay. 2 END OF CONVERSATION 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And then, you called him back on a 6 hardline? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And, that was at -- the transcript 9 appears at 20:15 -- I mean, at Tab 52; it's 20:15:40 10 hours and it's call 48 on the master list? 11 A: Correct. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 14 15 SAME call as 20:15:40 hours track 1.wav. 16 Dale LINTON and John CARSON 17 September 6, 1995 18 TIME: 20:15:51 hours 19 Track 1.wav 20 21 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN. 22 CARSON: Yeah John CARSON here, Dale LINTON please. 23 PETERMAN: Just a moment. 24 No talking 25 WRIGHT: John?
1431 CARSON: Yeah. 2 WRIGHT: Yeah hang on. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 WRIGHT: (It's John he's on a hard line.) 5 LINTON: Hello. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 LINTON: Yeah Jesus or I don't know what they're 8 doing but they're they're building up for 9 something down there cause their stuff is 10 set up. 11 CARSON: Okay ah you you were saying you were going 12 to ah you were calling out T.R.U.? 13 LINTON: Yeah. 14 CARSON: What are you going to do with them? 15 LINTON: Well T.R.U. is probably going to end up ah 16 going in and doing an arrest. 17 CARSON: Dale don't do that. 18 LINTON: No. 19 CARSON: Don't do that. If you do that we are in 20 trouble, okay. And are are you asking my 21 advice or are you just informing me here, 22 we better get this straight. 23 LINTON: No we we need to discuss this. 24 CARSON: Okay do you want me to come in? 25 LINTON: Well what what's ah why shouldn't we use
1441 like what we've got... 2 CARSON: Well what what are you going to achieve by 3 using T.R.U. that E.R.T. can't do? 4 LINTON: Well... 5 CARSON: If somebody goes down then then what are 6 you going to do? 7 LINTON: Like I think you got a build up ah inside 8 and that's my concern, it's not going to 9 arrest these eight guys, we were going... 10 CARSON: Oh oh... 11 LINTON: With E.R.T. once we got a statement. My 12 concern is that you have the school bus 13 moving down there, you've got the dump 14 truck moving down there and you've got 15 people in the kiosk pulling the blinds all 16 down and I think there's ah you know a 17 threat here of maybe sniper fire or like 18 they're doing something inside getting 19 ready for us. 20 CARSON: Okay well okay well that's fine and let's 21 evacuate those houses if you think... 22 LINTON: Okay. 23 CARSON: There's a threat of that nature, but don't 24 go in there with T.R.U. If you go in with 25 T.R.U. and somebody gets hurt we have
1451 nobody else to get them out. 2 LINTON: No, what I'm doing is I'm getting T.R.U. 3 to come here. 4 CARSON: Well I wouldn't even do that. 5 LINTON: No. 6 CARSON: If you if you if you bring that Team up 7 you got to be ready to deploy them. 8 They're... 9 LINTON: Is if I send my if I send the E.R.T. guys 10 in to arrest these eight people... 11 CARSON: Yeah. 12 LINTON: And all hell breaks loose... 13 CARSON: Yeah. 14 LINTON: And I've got T.R.U. suited and close by. 15 CARSON: Well that's fine but I would leave them in 16 the Pinery Park, they're closer from the 17 Pinery than they are from from Forest and 18 then you're going to create a Media event 19 with the T.R.U. Team truck sitting in town 20 here. 21 LINTON: Okay so... 22 CARSON: So... 23 LINTON: I'll suit them up and leave them in Pinery 24 then. 25 CARSON: I I wouldn't do any more than that for the
1461 time being. 2 LINTON: Okay. And then we'll do the arrest with 3 the E.R.T. guys? 4 CARSON: I would I'd call out all sixty of them if 5 you have to. 6 LINTON: Yeah. 7 CARSON: Whatever's necessary we'll do that but I 8 would I I... 9 LINTON: Alright. 10 CARSON: I tell you keep them in reserve. 11 LINTON: Okay. 12 (Background...hello Pam) 13 LINTON: Alright that's what we'll do. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 LINTON: And then if something happens we'll bring 16 them down. 17 CARSON: Do you want me to come back in? 18 LINTON: No. 19 CARSON: You're in charge. 20 LINTON: No we're fine. 21 CARSON: Okay, well I'll be at my motel. 22 LINTON: Okay. 23 CARSON: Okay thanks. 24 25 END OF CONVERSATION.
1471 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And the -- if we could to bottom of 5 page 330, at Tab 51, and there's part of the transcript 6 cut off at the bottom, but I think it's -- was "you 7 were", the missing part is "calling out TRU"? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I believe? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And what was your concern with 12 calling out the TRU team at this time? 13 A: Well, there was -- there was a couple 14 of issues. First of all, the -- the TRU team is, for 15 lack of a better term, the tool of -- of last resort. 16 It's the most offensive skill set that we have available 17 to us. 18 First of all, I was concerned that it 19 wasn't requiring a TRU response, it was requiring a 20 response of the uniform officers of ERT. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Who certainly were capable of -- of 23 dealing with eight (8) people on the Park or on the 24 parking lot with baseball bats. 25 I was also concerned that bringing the TRU
1481 team trucks up, the big cube vans with "police" all over 2 them, was going to attract an unnecessary amount of 3 attention and escalate the tension in that area that 4 already exists. If -- because to travel up to the -- to 5 Forest or to the TOC site, required -- well, had the 6 potential of driving right past the Ipperwash Military 7 Base. 8 And the other part is if we used the 9 tactical team and the officers went in there and 10 attempted to make the arrests, which they certainly have 11 the capability of doing, and if one of them were hurt or 12 we did come under fire, we have no other unit that's 13 capable of going in and extracting them. 14 So, there -- there was a number of issues 15 that needed to be taken into consideration. 16 Q: Okay. And at page 332, in the second 17 entry for you, there's -- it says: 18 "Okay, well, okay, that's fine [and] 19 let's evacuate those houses if you 20 think..." 21 And I believe the words after that should 22 be: 23 "There's a threat of that nature." 24 A: Yes. I think if you look to my next 25 comment after "Linton's okay", that's what's carried on.
1491 Q: Oh, okay, it carries on. 2 A: It's a continuation of that phrase. 3 Q: And what was the concern about the 4 houses? 5 A: Well, Linton was informing me that he 6 was concerned about the activity around the kiosk. There 7 might be sniper fire and that the truck -- the dump truck 8 and school bus were moving down into that corner. 9 Now, I'm assuming when he's talking about 10 'down into that corner', down into that parking lot area, 11 and he's obviously quite concerned about the resident -- 12 residents directly adjacent to that sandy parking lot. 13 Q: And what did you do next? 14 A: You mean after this phone call? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Well, I was in a bit of a quandary, 17 to -- to put it mildly. I -- as indicated in the phone 18 call, I asked Inspector Linton if he wanted me to return 19 and I -- I sensed there was some anxiety around whether 20 he wanted me to or not. 21 And at the same time, I was concerned 22 about the -- what appeared to be, you know, an escalation 23 of the activities in the area. 24 So, at the -- at the end of it, I -- I 25 returned to the command post.
1501 Q: Okay. And if I might, I'd like to 2 play a call. There's -- we don't have a transcript for 3 it. It's call number 50 and it's at 20:25 on September 4 6th. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 7 8 September 6, 1995 9 20:25 10 11 Track # 50 12 13 (Unclear) traffic, traffic group. 14 15 .... when we were waiting to take this statement from him 16 (unclear) 17 18 Lacroix is on his way up. To do these guys. 19 20 Operator Marilyn speaking. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Do you -- can you recognize who is 24 speaking at that point? 25 A: That sounded like Sergeant Korosec.
1511 Q: And, can you hear what he is saying? 2 Did you hear what he said? 3 A: I didn't distinguish what his comment 4 was. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 7 8 September 6, 1995 9 20:25 10 11 Track # 50 12 13 (Unclear) traffic, traffic group. 14 15 .... when we were waiting to take this statement from him 16 (unclear) 17 18 Lacroix is on his way up. To do these guys. 19 20 Operator Marilyn speaking. 21 22 Operator, this is Sergeant Stan Korosec with the Ontario 23 Provincial Police at Forest. I need an emergency cut-in 24 on a phone please. Area code 519-243-8131. ItĂs busy 25 and itĂs imperative I get a hold of the person on that
1521 line. 2 3 Stancore, right? 4 5 Pardon me? 6 7 Your last name is Stancore? 8 9 Korosec - K.O.R.O.S.E.C. 10 11 (I guess nothing to do ... take a step back) 12 13 Thank you. 14 15 And who are you trying to reach there please? 16 17 Kent Skinner. 18 19 Thank you. 20 21 (Our objective before this build up ... now we have this 22 shit ....) 23 24 ... Make an arrest). 25
1531 (What happens if we just draw back? and evacuate some 2 houses.? 3 4 (Absolutely not.) 5 6 (We can do that too. What basically what weĂve done...) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And, there's a voice in the 10 background. Do you hear those voices in the background? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: And, one (1) of those voices is 13 Inspector Linton? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And, the other voice appears to be 16 Staff Sergeant Wright? 17 A: It appears to be myself. 18 Q: You? Okay. 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 21 22 (Our objective before this build up ... now we have this 23 shit ....) 24 25 ... Make an arrest).
1541 (What happens if we just draw back? and evacuate some 2 houses.? 3 4 (Absolutely not.) 5 6 (We can do that too. What basically what weĂve done...) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And, that's you? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And, you're asking, what would happen 12 if we drew back and evacuated the houses? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And then: 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 17 18 (Our objective before this build up ... now we have this 19 shit ....) 20 21 ... Make an arrest). 22 23 (What happens if we just draw back? and evacuate some 24 houses.? 25
1551 (Absolutely not.) 2 3 (We can do that too. What basically what weĂve done...) 4 5 IĂm going to interrupt for you. There is a charge of 6 $4.20 7 8 ThatĂs okay, donĂt worry about that. 9 10 Thank you. One moment. 11 12 ThereĂs a charge. 13 14 ... (in here and thereĂs a (unclear) and a shot fired, 15 somebodyĂs going ....) 16 17 (I donĂt know. Unclear). 18 19 ... because of this action thing, right. 20 21 (Well, but IĂm suggesting to you, if you believe that 22 kind of threat is real then my understanding (unclear) 23 anybody in there until we have a better information, are 24 better prepared to handle. I know itĂs all guys .. 25
1561 Yes. 2 3 They hung up on, I didnĂt interrupt on it. Just a 4 minute. 5 6 Okay. 7 8 (Get just some information and if all theyĂre doing is 9 (unclear) then I suggest we (unclear). 10 11 2440 Lima One, 2440. 12 13 Both sides of the (unclear) are gone there now. 14 15 Yeah, somewhere. 16 17 Down in here? 18 19 So, well what about evacuating these people before .... 20 21 ThatĂs what IĂm still talking about. 22 23 WeĂre not trained in evacuation. 24 25 Wade LacroixĂs on his way up.
1571 Only got one house you can ... 2 3 Well, thereĂs ... 4 5 ... all along. 6 7 ThereĂs a house here right behind and a house here, I 8 would suggest you (unclear). 9 10 ThatĂs pretty much all like that along there. 11 12 Double, double (unclear). 13 14 So you went ... 15 16 Unless you have some particular business in here you will 17 have to get out please. 18 19 Just want to give a quick message. Babbitt will be at 20 the media post in ten minutes. 21 22 Okay, thank you. 23 24 You want T.R.U., get it up, stay at Pinery. 25
1581 Okay, IĂve got to ... 2 3 Pinery Meeting Centre. 4 5 Hi! IĂd like to talk to Kent Skinner please. 6 7 TheyĂre all gone. 8 9 TheyĂre all gone? 10 11 Yeah. 12 13 TheyĂre pulled out of the parking lot? 14 15 Yeah I think they went up ... did they go up to 16 Ipperwash? 17 18 Get them on the radio. 19 20 All the policemen, do you know? 21 22 ... all the guys together. 23 24 I think thatĂs where they went. 25
1591 Okay. 2 3 Okay? All right. 4 5 Thanks. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: You and Inspector Linton in the back 9 of this conversation, the telephone conversation we 10 heard, you're having a discussion? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And what can, if anything, can you 13 recall about that discussion today? 14 A: We were having a discussion about the 15 various options we could employ to deal with the -- the 16 issue with the people in the parking lot. 17 Q: The eight (8) individuals that you 18 thought were in the parking lot then? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And I believe it's you who said 21 something about, What would happen if we drew back and 22 evacuated those houses? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And was that one (1) of the options 25 you were considering?
1601 A: Well, I was trying to point out to 2 Dale there was -- we had to look at what the appropriate 3 approach to this particular incident was and I was having 4 some difficulty. 5 He had seemed to have made up in his mind 6 that we were going to deploy the TRU team to go in and 7 make the arrest. And I was trying to get him to 8 understand that that may not be the best approach and 9 that we needed to use the ERT members, that we need to 10 understand what the threat was. 11 And we needed to -- and he was obviously 12 briefing me on the issues around the damaged vehicle, the 13 people on the roadway, the bus, the truck, the concern of 14 activity in the kiosk. 15 And I was -- I think in the particular 16 point of the discussion that you've just pointed out I 17 was trying to point out to Inspector Linton that, you 18 know, if we feel there's that much of a threat there, we 19 probably need to get those cottages evacuated close by 20 because it is certainly a potential risk to them. 21 Q: And what was the potential risk to 22 them that you were concerned about at this time? 23 A: Well, there was the potential of a 24 number of things. I mean, if we -- we knew all along 25 that the cottages had been -- had been brought to our
1611 attention on a number of occasions through a number of 2 venues, the cottages were next, that this was some 3 preparations for that particular eventuality, we didn't 4 know but we had to be mindful of that. 5 Inspector Linton pointed out that he was 6 concerned about sniper fire coming from the kiosk. 7 Certainly the geography there allowed individuals to be, 8 for lack of a better term, hidden in -- in the Park and 9 still have a line of fire towards the sandy parking lot. 10 So, we were -- we were certainly concerned 11 about the -- any threats to the -- to the citizens that 12 may be in those cottages. 13 Q: Yes. And do you recall -- I can play 14 -- I know it's ten (10) years ago, I could play this 15 again, Detective Carson, if you would like to hear it 16 again to refresh your memory, we don't have a transcript 17 of this one, to see if there's anything else that you can 18 recall about this telephone conversation. 19 A: At the end of it, what is -- the 20 conclusion is, is that someone's vehicles have been 21 damaged. Mark Wright has been in that area around a 22 similar time just after the person's car was damaged. 23 As a result of that, he was -- I think the 24 way he related it, he was there and he was told he better 25 get out of there while he can or something to that
1621 affect. 2 And so he took off. He's the one that 3 reported there was eight (8) people there with baseball 4 bats. And so the consensus was at the -- at the end of 5 the day, that we would mobilize a crowd management team 6 and use the crowd management team to go in and clear the 7 parking lot and we would use the tactical team, TRU team, 8 in order to provide visual -- or to provide the visuals 9 and provide cover for the crowd management team. 10 Q: And was that decision made at this 11 point in time, at 8:25 on September 6th? 12 A: Yes, it was. 13 Q: And there's a reference to Lacroix in 14 this -- there's at least, I believe, two (2) references 15 to Lacroix in this telephone conversation. And I will 16 play it again, but I believe Sergeant Korosec says that 17 someone is on his way up to do these guys. 18 Did you hear those words at the beginning? 19 A: You're -- you're -- I believe you're 20 correct and I believe you will hear is "Lacroix is on his 21 way up." 22 Q: To do these guys? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And had Lacroix been -- been called 25 in at this point, do you know?
1631 A: He was -- he was being called out at 2 that point to call up and lead the crowd management team. 3 Q: And who made the decision to call 4 Wade Lacroix? 5 A: I believe it was Dale Linton, but I 6 could be wrong. I -- that was being done when I was in 7 having a discussion with Dale, so I'm not sure if Dale 8 had directed someone already to do that, or not. 9 Q: And the conversation that -- I'm just 10 trying to understand the timing. You spoke to Dale 11 Linton, according to the transcript at Tab 52, at 12 approximately -- at 8:15 or 8:16? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then that conversation lasted a 15 couple of minutes. I don't have... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: It was a few minutes; this telephone 20 conversation that you had with Dale Linton? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And how long did it -- did it take -- 23 do you recall how long it took you to get from the 24 residence -- after this telephone conversation, you'd 25 made a decision to go in?
1641 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: And how long after the conclusion of 3 the telephone conversation did it take you to make the 4 decision to go back to the command post? 5 A: Within a few minutes. 6 Q: And how long did it take you to go 7 from the house that you were at to the command post? 8 A: I would suspect not much more than a 9 couple of minutes. 10 Q: And the call at 20:25:10 where 11 Korosec is calling the -- Kent Skinner, that we just 12 listened to; call number 50. It's recorded at 20:25:10, 13 so it's approximately nine (9) minutes after the recorded 14 time for your call with Linton. 15 So, you would have -- do you recall -- 16 would you have -- I take it you're heard during this 17 call, so you would have been there by 20:25? 18 A: Yes, I think if you -- if you refer 19 to page 74 at the bottom, it shows I arrived back 20 according to the log, at 20:29 and I think we've 21 experienced in the last couple of days that our watches 22 about seven (7) minutes difference from the -- the logger 23 recorder. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: So, in that commentary, over on page
1651 75, you will see my comment: 2 "What if we back up and evacuate some 3 of the neighbouring cottages." 4 Would seem to synchronize with that 5 telephone call you're referring to, sir. 6 Q: And, that was the point in -- that we 7 were just discussing that had been part of the discussion 8 with Inspector Linton? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And, it would appear that Inspector 11 Linton had already made a decision to call Wade Lacroix, 12 because at 20:25 Sergeant Korosec says: 13 "Lacroix is on his way up to do these 14 guys." 15 A: Fair enough. 16 Q: And so, is it fair to say that when 17 you arrived that the decision had been made by Inspector 18 Linton to call Wade Lacroix? 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Your Honour -- Mr. 20 Commissioner, on behalf of Aboriginal Legal Services, I 21 have a concern in this sensitive area of evidence about 22 the leading. It just seems to me that rather than 23 suggesting to the Witness what role he played in the key 24 commands, at key moments, that we should hear from the 25 Witness with great respect.
1661 And, I mean no criticism, but Mr. Millar, 2 I just -- this is an absolutely crucial area of evidence 3 and it would be best if we hear from the Witness, with 4 great respect. 5 I understand there's discretion to lead, 6 I'm simply imploring My Friend to consider my request. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Mr. Falconer. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Do you know when Wade Lacroix was 12 called up? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Then, at 20:29, and it's 20:34 in the 15 scribe notes, there's a note: 16 "TRU has left Pinery. John Carson 17 attempting to call on cell phone." 18 And then, there is a telephone call at 19 20:29:58 and it's Tab 53 in our book and it's telephone 20 call number 51. 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 23 24 Kent SKINNER and John CARSON 25 September 6, 1995
1671 TIME: 20.29.58 hours 2 Track 1.wav 3 4 (dialling of phone...) 5 (background...(I/A) assault one of our officers, one of 6 our officers...) 7 (phone ringing in) 8 SKINNER: Hello. 9 CARSON: Kent. 10 SKINNER: Yeah. 11 CARSON: John CARSON here. 12 SKINNER: Yes. 13 CARSON: Kent hold the Team down okay? 14 SKINNER: Okay hold on, we're Inspector we just 15 pulled into ah Forest. 16 CARSON: Into where? 17 SKINNER: Forest Detachment. 18 CARSON: Okay take the okay well...take take the 19 gun trucks back to the Park but have Kent 20 get over here. 21 SKINNER: Okay. 22 CARSON: Okay and for ah prepare to get an OSCAR 23 Team ready okay? 24 SKINNER: Very good. 25 CARSON: Okay?
1681 SKINNER: Bye bye. 2 CARSON: Alright. 3 END OF CONVERSATION 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And, who were you speaking to, Deputy 7 Carson? 8 A: Initially, I thought I was speaking 9 to Staff Sergeant Skinner but, in fact, I believe it's 10 Acting Sergeant Deane. 11 Q: And so, the transcript should be, 12 where it says, "Skinner," it should be, "Deane?" 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And, the -- Deane says that they were 15 at Forest detachment? 16 A: Yes, they were just pulling in. 17 Q: And, how many gun trucks did -- were 18 there at this point? 19 How many trucks did the TRU team have at 20 8:30 on the evening of September 6th? 21 A: The -- the trucks that we'd be 22 referring to would be three (3) cube vans. 23 Q: The ones you described yesterday? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: With, "Police" on the side?
1691 A: Correct. Now, they may have had -- 2 they would have had other vehicles available to them, but 3 the gun trucks we referred to are those cube vans. They 4 -- they also have a car and an ordinary passenger van. 5 Q: So, you asked -- instructed Mr. Deane 6 -- acting Sergeant Deane to take the gun trucks back to 7 the Park. 8 Which Park were you referring to? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Well, my memory seems to suggest 13 Pinery Park, but I told him to prepare an OSCAR team so 14 it would have to be down to the TOC site in order to 15 prepare an observation team to go in. 16 Q: And an OSCAR team refers to a 17 observation team? 18 A: An OSCAR team is the term used for an 19 observation team for an ERT team. In fact, an 20 observation team for TRU would be referred to, normally, 21 as a SIERRA team. 22 Q: Okay. Then what do you? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1701 A: Staff Sergeant Skinner came in to the 2 command post and -- and he was briefed by myself of the 3 potential of a sniper being in the kiosk and that we 4 needed to evacuate the cottages in the area and get a 5 SIERRA team on ground, drop them off either -- well, in 6 the trailer park area was suggested, and work your way up 7 using night vision and observe. 8 And -- and I asked Skinner what he thought 9 and he felt he could drop the members off at the TOC and 10 provide that -- a detail. 11 And I pointed out to Skinner the primary 12 concern was evacuating the cottages and seeing what's 13 happening in the kiosk or the gatehouse. 14 Q: Yes...? 15 A: And I asked if we can get a sniper 16 team in there and Skinner said he'd take care of it. 17 Q: And at this point in time, what was 18 being contemplated with respect to both the SIERRA team 19 and the sniper team? 20 A: SIERRA team and the sniper team is 21 one and the same. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: What was being asked of them was to 24 deploy and move into the area where they could get a 25 visual on the gatehouse to determine if they could see
1711 what activity was actually taking place there. 2 One (1) of the concerns that I had, 3 particularly, was I wanted to know about the sight lines 4 from the gatehouse to the sandy parking lot; whether or 5 not the parking lot was in line of fire. 6 And I knew there were some contours to the 7 -- to the land there in respect to the -- to the sand 8 dunes, and I didn't -- I wasn't a 100 percent sure 9 whether there was a dune that obstructed the view or the 10 lines of fire between the gatehouse and the parking lot 11 or not. 12 And we had had some discussion, I'm not 13 sure if it was -- I think -- I believe, it was Mark 14 Wright had suggested there was a berm there, a sand -- a 15 sand dune that prevented the -- the ability to have a 16 line of fire from the -- from the gatehouse but I wasn't 17 so sure and I wanted that clearly checked. 18 And I also wanted to make sure that we had 19 the teams in a position where they were able to observe 20 the activity in that sandy parking lot. 21 Q: Okay. And if I could take you, 22 before we go back to that Inspector -- is -- is -- Deputy 23 Carson. 24 In the log notes, at page 73, at 20:02 25 there is a -- a note of a discussion between Linton,
1721 Wright, Graham and Korosec. And if I could take you to 2 page 427 -- Exhibit 427, page 474, there's an entry at 3 2002. And you will see there's a note of the 20 -- eight 4 o'clock discussion. 5 And there's a line: 6 "M.W. disagree, advise males to back up 7 into Park -- or parks." 8 Do you see that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that part -- those words are not 11 in the typed scribe notes. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Was there any discussion when you and 14 Dale Linton -- and was Wright part of the discussion when 15 you -- as soon as you returned to the command post at 16 20:25 in that area? 17 A: No, he was not part of that 18 discussion. 19 Q: Did -- was it -- did you and Linton 20 discuss simply telling the people in the parking lot to 21 go back into the Park? 22 A: I don't recall that being a part of 23 the discussion, no. 24 Q: And if we could pull up -- I know 25 this is now 2005 and the kiosk -- does the kiosk appear
1731 on this -- this photograph? 2 A: I believe the kiosk is in this spot 3 here. 4 Q: And the spot that you're pointing to 5 is a spot in between two (2) roads. The road comes in 6 off Army Camp Road on the west and proceeds northeast and 7 splits -- there's a triangle in the middle and you 8 believe the kiosk was at the point where there's -- it 9 appears to be a round black mark on the ground. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And perhaps we could mark that as 12 'Kiosk - Gatehouse'. 13 And can you explain -- tell us again what 14 the concern was with respect to the kiosk gatehouse? 15 A: Well, there was concern about the 16 activity that was occurring in the gatehouse. Linton had 17 indicated that there were people in there and they had 18 pulled the blinds down. 19 And he was concerned about weapons being 20 in there and about the potential of gunfire from that 21 location. My concern was that I tasked to the tactical 22 team was to determine if there were site lines from the 23 gatehouse across to the sandy parking lot. 24 And I wasn't sure if there was a line or 25 if the area in between here had a rise in it because of
1741 the sand that precluded a site line across there. 2 Q: Okay. And at Tab -- back at the 3 typed scribe notes at page 74 there's a note at 20:21: 4 "Stan Korosec called Wade Lacroix to 5 attend. Advise Mark Wright and Dale 6 Linton." 7 And then, there's a note: 8 "Dale Linton take four (4) off, move 9 all of "B". 10 Do you have any understanding what the 11 reference, "take four (4) off, move all of 'B'", would 12 be? 13 A: I'm not sure, sir. 14 Q: Okay. Then -- 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: -- there's a note at 20:41: 19 "Stan Korosec: My team is dressed and 20 ready in rear office." 21 And what does that refer to, sir? 22 A: That would be the ERT team from 23 Number 1 District, like from the Chatham District. 24 Q: And was that the day shift ERT team 25 or the night shift, I've lost track?
1751 A: I think I'm in the same boat. 2 Q: Okay. Now, you indicated that the 3 decision had been made to call out the crowd management 4 unit in your discussion with Linton at -- which is noted 5 in here 20:29 at the bottom of page 74 and the top of 6 page 75. 7 There's no note or direction in this 8 scribe note that indicates that that decision had been 9 made. 10 A: Fair enough. 11 Q: And it had been my understanding, 12 from your earlier evidence, that if a decision was made - 13 - an important decision -- that it would be recorded in 14 the scribe notes and I'm -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- I would -- is that correct? 17 A: Yes. Yes, it is. 18 Q: And can you tell me why it doesn't 19 appear there? 20 A: I don't have an explanation for that 21 other than the scribe didn't capture it. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: As you could tell from the phone call 24 there was a significant amount of activity. There was 25 phone calls being made by numerous people, and radio
1761 transmissions, and information being passed from one to 2 another, and I know Dale and I had a very significant 3 discussion about how we would address this, and it was 4 decided that I would lead the crowd management operation, 5 and he would handle the -- the outer perimeter from the 6 command post in Forest. 7 We came to that consensus, now I -- why it 8 doesn't reflect that exactly that way in the Command Post 9 minutes, I'm not sure of the scribe's ability to capture 10 all that conversation. 11 Q: Okay. The -- then there's a note 12 20:42. 13 "Trevor Richardson: Reports of lots of 14 Native traffic on beach." 15 A: Right. 16 Q: Then: 17 "John Carson: Okay. Let's get 18 Chatham to get officers to manage 19 points." 20 What does that refer to? 21 A: Get the dispatch from Chatham to 22 start dispatching uniformed members to come up and assist 23 with the checkpoints because we're going to use the ERT 24 personnel for the crowd management operation. 25 Q: And you had four (4) ERT teams on the
1771 ground? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And the other day you told me that -- 4 I thought that normally a crowd management unit is made 5 up of two (2) ERT teams and a Staff Sergeant? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And how many ERT teams was going to - 8 - were going to be used with respect to the crowd 9 management unit that you were putting together on the 10 evening of September 6th? 11 A: There would be two (2) teams used for 12 the crowd management formation. 13 Q: Yes? And the other two (2) teams? 14 A: I don't -- I don't know how -- what 15 we tasked them to do, if they were still on the 16 checkpoints, waiting for relief to come, or -- or exactly 17 where they were placed at that point in time. 18 Q: And Chatham is how far -- when you -- 19 the reference to "let's get Chatham to get officers", how 20 far is Chatham away from the Ipp -- Camp Ipperwash area? 21 A: Close to -- almost a hundred (100) 22 kilometres. 23 Q: And -- almost a hundred (100) 24 kilometres? 25 A: Yeah. But I -- I should point out
1781 we're -- when we use terminology like that, "get Chatham 2 to do something" means get the Chatham com. centre. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: So the Chatham com. centre would 5 dispatch the closest personnel which would include the 6 Pinery -- I'm sorry, the Grand Bend officers, or the 7 Petrolia officers. 8 What you would do is you bring the nearest 9 ones up first, of course. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: So it -- it didn't mean that only 12 officers from Chatham would be sent a hundred (100) 13 kilometres away. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 18 Q: Then there's a note, 20:43, and what 19 does that refer to? 20 A: "Rob Graham indicated that he 21 received information from Constable Mark Dew 22 that the women and children were being 23 evacuated from the military base." 24 Q: And was Rob Graham in the command 25 post?
1791 A: I -- I believe so. I could be wrong, 2 but I -- I believe he was in there with Korosec, if I'm 3 not mistaken. 4 Q: And what else was... 5 A: There was a -- comments that they 6 were preparing all night for Kettle and Stony Point. 7 I'm not sure what the reference is there. 8 "But if they have any problems with 9 Kettle Point Councillors, they will set 10 building on fire." 11 And it also is reported there was numerous 12 guns four (4) SFFS's, thirty (30) detachable clips, ten 13 (10) fixed round clip, two (2) Ruger 14's, three (3) 14 ordinary clips, hunting rifles, and gas bombs. 15 And this was reported to you? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what was the -- your 18 understanding of the source of this information? 19 A: It was my understanding someone had 20 shared that with Constable Dew in the preceding moments, 21 prior to me receiving that information. 22 Q: And were you aware, at this point, at 23 quarter to 9:00, where the checkpoints were, or if there 24 had been any changes with the checkpoints? 25 A: I wasn't aware of any change.
1801 Q: Okay. And the -- we can do this, 2 Commissioner, one (1) or two (2) ways, but it might be of 3 assistance as we go along. There is a radio transmission 4 at 19:37 that we can play and that deals with checkpoints 5 and -- the -- and perhaps I'll just that, it's at 19:37. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long is 10 this tape, roughly? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: About two minutes -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- this one. And I'm 14 referring, for the benefit of My Friends, Chatham logger 15 tape 10146, track 12, which we distributed by e-mail for 16 everyone's assistance, as a guide simply. 17 And on the second document that I 18 distributed today, and perhaps we could give... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I have 25 this. I have this. I have this.
1811 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The second document 2 that I distributed today as a guide that has, again on 3 it: "Chatham Communications Centre". The reference is on 4 the second page, elapsed time 8:32:55. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And the first entry -- the first on 10 the first phone call because it clicked over to another 11 one: 12 "Checkpoint Alpha [I think it said] 13 move back to TOC." 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And what did you -- what do you 16 understand from that transmission? 17 A: That means it was moved back from the 18 corner on -- the corner of Army Camp and -- well, on 19 Parkway Road, but it was moved back up to the TOC site at 20 the MNR parking lot. 21 Q: And perhaps we could -- do you know 22 where at the TOC site in the MNR parking lot the Alpha 23 checkpoint was moved? 24 A: I can only guess. 25 Q: And it would have been somewhere in
1821 the area of the MNR parking lot? And we'll confirm this, 2 Commissioner, with other evidence, but it would be... 3 A: My assumption would be in this 4 general vicinity right here. 5 Q: And perhaps we'll mark that, that's 6 "A-2" 7 And perhaps it would be an appropriate 8 time for a short break? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, let's 10 take a short break. We're going to adjourn at 3:30, as 11 usual, for Thursday? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 14 for ten (10) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 2:20 p.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 2:33 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Deputy Carson, could I take you back
1831 to Tab 52 in the Book of Transcripts. It's a telephone 2 call between you and Dale Linton at 8:15 and 40 seconds 3 on the evening of September 6th? And at the top of page 4 334 -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- and at the bottom of page 30 -- 7 333 Inspector Linton says: 8 "Okay and then we'll do the arrest with 9 the ERT guys." 10 Carson says: 11 "I would call out all sixty (60) of 12 them if you have to. 13 Linton: Yeah. 14 Carson: Whatever is necessary we'll do 15 that but I would -- 16 Linton: All right. 17 Carson: I tell you keep them in 18 reserve. 19 Linton: Okay. 20 Linton: All right that's what we'll 21 do. 22 Carson: Okay. 23 Linton: And then if something happens 24 we'll bring them down." 25 And then:
1841 Carson: Do you want me to come back 2 in? 3 Linton: Well whatever you want, I 4 don't care. 5 Carson: Well it's your call. 6 Linton: No. 7 Carson: You're in charge." 8 Then you say: 9 Well I'll know you are fine, I'll be at 10 my motel." 11 Now -- at -- what did you expect to happen 12 as a result of this telephone call at 8:15. 13 A: Well, quite frankly, that was the 14 quandary I was in because after I hung up the telephone 15 call I wasn't sure exactly what was going to happen next. 16 I mean Dale had a couple -- Inspector 17 Linton had a couple options to him. He could use ERT -- 18 in an ordinary -- ERT to send in a number of officers to 19 make an arrest, or he could take two (2) ERT teams and 20 assemble them, and kit them up in crowd management gear 21 with a -- with a unit leader, who -- who would have to be 22 a staff sergeant, and move in there with a crowd 23 management formation to deal with it. 24 So there -- there was a couple options 25 with -- even with the ERT people.
1851 Q: And then at the scribe note at 74, 2 page 74 at 20:21, which is the next entry after the 3 telephone call with you. There's an entry: 4 "Stan Korosec called Wade Lacroix to 5 attend. Advise Mark Wright and Dale 6 Linton." 7 That's -- what do you take from that 8 entry? 9 A: Well, I take from that that Korosec 10 has been directed to call out Staff Sergeant Lacroix, who 11 is a crowd management leader. 12 Q: And he was in Petrolia? 13 A: Yes. That's where his residence -- 14 yes. 15 Q: And then you arrive a few minutes 16 later? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And then, as you've told us, you had 19 a discussion with Inspector Linton about the options? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Then there's a transmission at 20:26 22 with respect to moving checkpoint Bravo to Alpha. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 25
1861 September 6, 1995 2 20:26 3 4 Track # 2026 5 6 (Unclear) 7 8 Lima Two, Lima One. 9 10 Go ahead, Lima One, Lima Two. 11 12 Move B to A, move Checkpoint B to Checkpoint A. 13 14 Ten four. 15 16 Checkpoint B, Lima Two. 17 18 10-4 we got copied Lima One (unclear) Checkpoint Alpha. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And what is your understanding of 22 that transmission at approximately twenty-six (26) 23 minutes after 8:00 on September 6th? 24 A: Well, it appears that the checkpoint 25 at the corner of Ipperwash Road and Parkway Drive was
1871 moved up on Parkway, in the area of the TOC site, in the 2 MNR parking lot. 3 Q: And so, 'B', which was at the 4 intersection of Ipperwash Road and East Parkway was moved 5 to the same spot as "A" in the area of the Ministry of 6 Natural Resources parking lot? 7 A: That's what it appears, yes. 8 Q: So, we'll mark that D-1 on the -- 9 A: 'B' 10 Q: B-1, excuse me. I keep saying 'D' 11 and 'B'. 12 Now, the -- at 20:46, page 76, can you 13 tell us what that note is above -- about? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I indicated that we need to evacuate 18 the neighbouring cottages. Mark Wright spoke to 19 cottagers earlier and they're very upset. 20 That's where he's relating information 21 around that a group of people he had met at the MNR 22 parking lot earlier in the afternoon. 23 And there was discussion about the line of 24 sight from the kiosk to the corner, and Mark Wright felt 25 that there was no problem there, that it would be
1881 impossible to see the corner from the kiosk. 2 And -- and I just simply wasn't as 3 comfortable about it as he was. 4 Q: And the reference "Less use -- let's 5 use blue shirts"? 6 A: Yeah, the -- the point -- I think 7 that's -- that's the start of a -- the "Let's use blue 8 shirts" is at points, and approach the corner with four 9 (4) teams from both ways. 10 Q: From both days? 11 A: Both -- 12 Q: Ways or days? 13 A: Oh, four (4) teams from both days 14 means all the ERT teams. 15 Q: Yes. And then what happened next? 16 A: I had a discussion with Kent Skinner 17 and I tasked him to sending some -- a -- a sniper team in 18 to check out the line of sight from the kiosk to the 19 parking lot, and he said he could take care of that. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: And I also pointed to him that all 22 we're doing there is observation, and I -- I was quite 23 emphatic about that and -- and, in fact, I commented: we 24 are not going tactical and let's get that straight. 25 Q: Yes.
1891 A: I didn't want any doubt about what 2 the role that TRU was going to be deployed in. 3 Q: Yes, and when you say "not going 4 tactical", you were referring to what? 5 A: That the TRU team's role was in 6 observation and support of the crowd management team, and 7 that this wasn't a TRU team tactical operation where -- 8 such as a normal containment might be, in regards to a 9 barricaded gun person. 10 Q: Perhaps you could just explain that 11 to me again, as a layperson; I don't understand it. 12 A: Okay. Normally what happens is the 13 TRU team usually secures the inner perimeter where there 14 is a -- a situation, a threatening situation, or a person 15 is threatening violence, or threatening suicide, or 16 there's firearms involved, or other potential weapons. 17 And the TRU team set up the inner perimeter, and they're 18 prepared to, if necessary, literally become proactive and 19 take aggressive action to deal with the threat. 20 And what I was trying to point out here is 21 they are not going to be going tactical and addressing 22 the threat. That was going to be done with the crowd 23 management unit. 24 The crowd management would deal with the 25 personnel on the parking lot, and it would be TRU who
1901 would be posted -- or positioned on either side of the 2 roadway so that they could observe what's going on and 3 provide information back, and provide the cover in the 4 event that the crowd management team came under fire. 5 Q: Okay. And at this point, there's the 6 -- the reference about the: 7 "Kent Skinner: I can get the snipers 8 team to search it out." 9 That was with respect to the kiosk? 10 A: I believe so, yes. 11 Q: And the reference "observation"? 12 A: Yes, all we're doing is observation. 13 Q: Okay. Then there's a note: 14 "Rob Graham". 15 A: He reports that there's a witness 16 who's able to identify at least one (1) person. 17 Q: And do you know who that witness was? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: Then there's a reference "Mark 20 Wright", what is that about? 21 A: He -- he's relating his experience 22 when he was down at the public -- talking to the public 23 down at the MNR parking lot earlier in the afternoon. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And, there was number of people
1911 gathered there. I believe I spoke to the issue where 2 they were prepared to march on the Park? 3 Q: Yes? Then, the next entry, what does 4 that refer to? 5 A: Well, that's where I'm briefing them 6 that we're going to use TRU to go in and get an eye and 7 if they're just having a campfire, let's just leave them 8 be. Why would we go in in the dark? 9 Stan Korosec indicated there was five (5), 10 two (2) man, blue uniforms en route here to look after 11 the checkpoints. 12 Q: And, the TRU team to go in and get an 13 eye, what were they getting an eye at? 14 A: At the activities in the sandy 15 parking lot. 16 Q: And -- 17 A: So, there -- there was actually two 18 (2) tasks happening simultaneously here, maybe it's not 19 clear. 20 Q: It's not clear. 21 A: Okay. One (1) -- one (1) of the 22 tasks is to understand what's happening in relation to 23 the kiosk, if there's any people in there, if there's a 24 line of sight from the kiosk to the parking lot and also 25 have officers in position that can relay information as
1921 to what the activity that is occurring in the sandy 2 parking lot. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: So -- so, there'd be a two (2) 5 officer team on either side of the parking lot, one (1) 6 up in the cottages and the other across the road in the 7 treed area. 8 Q: And, perhaps we could put the -- and 9 where did -- when you say there would be one (1) team up 10 in the cottages and one (1) in the treed area, what are 11 you referring to? 12 A: Well -- well, first of all, it -- 13 it's up to the TRU team leader to deploy them where it's 14 most appropriate, so I personally don't get into the 15 detail of -- of where he's going to position people. 16 But, understanding how they operate and understanding the 17 lay of the land, my expectation is that one (1) team 18 would be in this area and another team would be up in 19 this general area, so that there would be two (2) lines 20 of sight into this parking lot. 21 And, while they're up in here, they could 22 have a look and see what the sight lines are across from 23 the kiosk gatehouse over to that parking lot. So, 24 they're trying to accomplish a couple of things at the 25 same time.
1931 Q: So, you expected one (1) unit to be 2 in the north and one (1) unit on the south with respect 3 to the -- doing the observation? 4 A: Yes. And -- and they would choose 5 the appropriate spots on either side that they could 6 achieve the necessary cover and concealment they 7 required. 8 Q: Okay. And then: 9 "If they're just having a campfire, 10 let's leave them. Why go in the dark?" 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: What's that refer to? 15 A: Well, that was a comment I made that 16 if -- if what they're doing is just sitting there 17 sitting around the campfire roasting marshmallows, then 18 we're not going to bother them. 19 Q: And, if they're sitting around having 20 a campfire where? 21 A: In the parking lot. 22 Q: Okay. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1941 Q: Then there's a reference: 2 "John Carson: Why don't Mark Wright 3 look at video to see if the kiosk is in 4 view? 5 Mark Wright: I see eight (8) people 6 at the corner and at least four (4) had 7 bats or something like that." 8 A: Yeah, I'm not sure which video that 9 is referring to. But, Mark Wright's, I believe, 10 referring to when he was down there with the car himself. 11 Q: Because if you look at page 478 of 12 Exhibit 427, it is: 13 "Mark Wright: I saw eight (8) people 14 at the corner and at least four (4) had 15 bats or something like that." 16 A: That makes sense. 17 Q: And the -- so there was a video, as 18 you understand, it in the kiosk -- 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: -- a video camera and a video camera 21 in the maintenance shed? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: Then what happened next? 24 A: Mark Wright and I discussed the -- or 25 Mark Wright indicated that he had spoke to the Attorney
1951 General's lawyers regarding to his evidence that it was 2 to be given the next morning. 3 And I indicated that was okay but I still 4 wanted to talk to him about that, and him and I went 5 outside to have that discussion. 6 Q: And you and he went out -- at that 7 point in time you went outside to have that discussion? 8 A: Yeah. We left the command trailer. 9 Q: And the video was in Grand Bend, 10 wasn't it? 11 A: Yes, it was. 12 Q: And so I'm trying to understand what 13 Mark Wright was to -- to do with respect to the video. 14 A: I'm not sure which video we're 15 talking about. I -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- I'm -- I guess I'm just thinking 18 out loud here, it may be some of the video from earlier 19 in the day that was taken down in that beach area that 20 would have helped out with the understanding of sight 21 lines from that parking lot. 22 Q: Okay. And then at twenty-one (21) -- 23 perhaps I think Constable Evans had taken the video 24 earlier. 25 A: Correct.
1961 Q: Then at 21:00 hours the -- or 21:01 2 Linton advised communications to have the roads closed? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And there are two (2) transmissions 5 at 21:00 hours, and 21:03, and 21:06. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 8 9 September 6, 1995 10 21:00 11 12 Track # 2100 13 14 Lima One to Lima Two. 15 16 Go ahead Lima One 17 18 Lima One. Go ahead. 19 20 Prepare to copy. 21 22 Go ahead. 23 24 We want Checkpoint Charlie moved a little further back 25 towards Checkpoint Delta and that new checkpoint and at
1971 Checkpoint Alpha we want the roads closed off. We want 2 the roads closed off completely. No more traffic. 3 4 Alpha ten four. 5 6 Checkpoint Charlie ű are you ten four on that command? 7 8 Checkpoint Charlie from Lima Two ű are you ten four on 9 Lima OneĂs command? 10 11 Lima Two Charlie ű ten four. 12 13 Lima Two Alpha. 14 15 Speak up, car calling Lima Two. 16 17 I/A. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And that transmission closes the 21 roads and asks Checkpoint Charlie to move back towards 22 Checkpoint Delta? 23 A: Yes, it does. 24 Q: And this is the... 25
1981 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 September 6, 1995 4 21:03 5 6 Track # 2103 7 8 Lima Two, Charlie. 9 10 Go ahead Charlie, Lima Two. 11 12 Just confirmation this spot (unclear) road south sub- 13 division. 14 15 Charlie, Lima Two ű youĂre totally broken. 16 17 Yeah, LimaĂs confirming that (unclear) road. 18 19 Charlie, the command from Lima One was to move back 20 towards Delta. 21 22 Yeah, ten four, thatĂs where weĂre moving. WeĂre just 23 confirming as to the exact location. 24 25 You didnĂt give me an exact location, you can call him if
1991 you like. 2 3 Lima One, Charlie. 4 5 Lima One ű go ahead. 6 7 Just confirming that the location you want us to set up 8 is towards Delta. 9 10 Yeah, that was effective 25 seconds ago. Stand by for 11 new instructions. 12 13 Standing by. 14 15 Lima One to Checkpoint Delta. 16 17 Go ahead Lima One. 18 19 Checkpoint Delta ű youĂre to move north of the army camp 20 road entrance, north of the army camp road entrance to 21 the army camp and close off the road at that location. 22 Close off the road allowing traffic to come out of the 23 army camp towards 21 but not towards Ipperwash. Is that 24 ten four? 25
2001 Lima One, Delta, that is ten four. 2 3 Lima One to Checkpoint Charlie ű do you read? 4 5 Charlie. Go ahead. 6 7 YouĂre to remain in your position and set the cars off to 8 the side and just have an observation. The road will be 9 closed up at Delta. You just act as observation. Is 10 that ten four? 11 12 ThatĂs ten four. 13 14 Checkpoint Alpha from Lima One ű read? 15 16 Alpha. 17 18 YouĂre to have the road closed there and Checkpoint Bravo 19 should be at your location as well. That ten four? 20 21 ThatĂs ten four. TheyĂre at this location now and the 22 road is closed. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And then we will play ...
2011 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUES BELOW) 2 3 10-4. Lima Two. Checkpoint Bravo 4 5 Bravo, Lima Two. Go ahead. 6 7 We have a cottager here whose residence is between us and 8 army camp road. Should we just escort him down, or just 9 let him go through or is it closed to everybody 10 11 September 6, 1995 12 21:06 13 14 Track # 2106 15 16 Closed for everybody. 17 18 10-4. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: So that -- what is your understanding 22 from these transmissions that the check -- that Charlie 23 was supposed to move closer to Delta and then was asked 24 to remain in its position and act as an observation post? 25 A: Correct.
2021 Q: And then Delta moved -- was to move 2 from the entrance to the camp and close off the access 3 from Highway 21? 4 A: It was to move to just north of the 5 army camp entrance which would allow traffic in and out 6 of the army camp, but not up Army Camp Road. 7 Q: Okay, so where would it -- was your 8 understanding that -- where Delta was to go? 9 A: I believe that's the entrance into 10 the Army Camp. 11 Q: It is? 12 A: So it would be just -- I would 13 presume, in this general area from that description. 14 Q: So that -- I see. So that it 15 would move north to prevent traffic. 16 A: If -- if that's the gatehouse there. 17 Q: That is the gatehouse. 18 A: Okay. Yeah, that's my understanding, 19 just allows traffic into the -- into the Base, but not 20 beyond. 21 Q: The transmission... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Okay.
2031 Q: And so, we'll call that, "D2". 2 And then, the roads are closed. Why were 3 the roads closed? 4 A: Well, with the crowd management team 5 moving up the road, you didn't want to have traffic 6 coming down there when they're in the middle of moving up 7 the -- up the street. 8 Q: And, I misspoke myself, the 9 checkpoint, when it moved, would be D-1, Commissioner. 10 Okay. Then, there's a reference: 11 "Dale Linton: Have fire department 12 stand by just in case." 13 And, what does that refer to? 14 A: Well, apparently he's directed 15 somebody to notify the fire department. I mean, I -- I 16 wasn't present when he did that. 17 Q: You weren't present when he did that? 18 A: No. 19 Q: What did you do next? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I had a discussion with Dale Linton 24 and Kent Skinner at 21:22 that Skinner and I would go 25 forward to the MNR TOC site and Linton would remain at
2041 the command trailer in Forest. He would manage the outer 2 perimeter and I would look after the deployment in the -- 3 of the crowd management team and monitor the TRU team. 4 Q: And then, there is a reference: 5 "Go over information with..." 6 A: Lacroix. 7 Q: Wade Lacroix? 8 A: With Lacroix. He had arrived and I 9 went outside the trailer. Lacroix was -- he had his 10 crowd management gear and he was kitting up -- actually 11 right at the rear of the mobile command trailer and while 12 he was putting on his equipment I was briefing him of the 13 circumstances and what my expectations were of him. 14 And, in particular -- well, he indicated 15 that he -- he would like a set of bolt cutters and fire 16 extinguishers and I indicated to him that if they went 17 back into the Park, that they were -- that he was to let 18 them go back into the Park. And, that -- and I was very 19 emphatic that our officers were not to go into the Park. 20 Q: And what were your officers to do at 21 this time? 22 A: I'm sorry? 23 Q: What -- what did you want your -- the 24 crowd management unit to do when you were briefing 25 Lacroix?
2051 A: My expectations of the crowd 2 management team? 3 Q: Yes. 4 Q: Well, my hope was that as the crowd 5 management team came up the road and came into that area 6 that they would simply move back into the Park and 7 hopefully we'd have to do not much of anything, but -- 8 Q: And -- 9 A: -- that -- that's certainly the 10 psychological impact you are trying to impose by using a 11 crowd management team. That's -- that's the strategy 12 that the crowd management utilizes in -- in any crowd 13 management situation. 14 Q: And, can you recall anything else 15 that you told Wade Lacroix to do at this point, what his 16 instructions were? 17 A: Well, I was briefing him on the 18 circumstances as we know it. And I certainly briefed him 19 that they weren't to go into the Park, and -- and I'm 20 sure he'll give evidence to that effect in the near 21 future. 22 Q: And at ten to 9:00, the reference on 23 page 76: 24 "John Carson: We are using TRU to go 25 in and get an eye. If they are just
2061 having a campfire, let's leave them. 2 Why go in the dark?" 3 Do you recall that? 4 A: Yes sir. 5 Q: And you've told me that if they were 6 simply having a campfire in the Sandy Parking Lot, to 7 leave them? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And had you heard back from the TRU 10 team, by 21:22, when you were giving instructions to Wade 11 Lacroix? 12 A: I don't believe the TRU team were in 13 position yet. 14 Q: Okay. But did you -- you had told the 15 TRU team if they're simply having a campfire, leave them 16 there. But your -- as you've just told me you're telling 17 Wade Lacroix to move the people back into the Park. 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And can you explain the contradiction 20 to me? 21 A: Well really it's not a contradiction. 22 When we get down to the forward -- or to the TOC site at 23 the MNR parking lot, the crowd management does not leave 24 that area until I give them the order to move. 25 So the instruction to Lacroix is, when
2071 they're deployed into that Sandy Parking Lot, that's what 2 I expect of them. It may be, when I get down there, that 3 an assessment is: I don't even deploy the crowd 4 management team. 5 So the issue with the TRU and with the 6 crowd management unit are two (2) distinctly separate 7 issues. So the TRU team observers are being put in 8 place, looking for some information back, and we're 9 setting up the crowd management team. 10 And it may be that the information comes 11 back that they're -- everything is quiet and it's not 12 necessary to deploy the crowd management team. If in 13 fact the information comes back and it's certainly from 14 the ERT officers, was that there was a lot of activity 15 down there, then we would continue with the deployment of 16 the crowd management team. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: So there's -- there's a lot of 19 dynamics happening simultaneously here with different 20 people. 21 Q: Okay. Then what do you do next? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I believe it's about that time that I
2081 actually head down to the MNR parking lot. 2 Q: And if I could -- we don't have a 3 transcript for this, but I'm going to play the -- number 4 54, telephone call number -- the communication number 54. 5 And this is noted as being 24 minutes 6 after 9:00 or 21:24 on September 6th. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 9 10 September 6, 1995 11 21:24 12 13 Track # 2124 14 15 Lima One from TRU Vehicle TAC 2. 16 17 Lima One to TRU Vehicle. Go ahead weĂre reading you ten 18 two. 19 20 Yeah, ten four, the TAC is up in this vehicle. We had 21 problems getting it up in the other vehicle, so .. 22 23 Ten four, just FYI when you use this TAC, to use your mic 24 push the mic button about a second before you talk, 25 youĂre cutting the first part out. Also be advised
2091 Carson and Skinner are on their way to your location. 2 Reference comm. problems. 3 4 Ten four 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: The last part of that transmission is 8 virtually impossible to understand. But the -- at the 9 beginning of that transmission they talked about the TAC 10 is now up in this vehicle? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And the -- there was a reference to 13 the TRU TOC and then the person who responded said, TAC 14 is now up in this vehicle. Can you explain for us the 15 difference between TOC and TAC? TAC being T-A-C. 16 A: Correct. I -- what you're hearing 17 there, I believe, is that there is a TRU team officer 18 speaking to the ERT officer. The TRU team officer is 19 explaining that the TRU team truck, that's the TOC 20 vehicle for TRU, is equipped with both radio systems. 21 And that he's now on the TAC -- on the 22 Total Access Channel with the crowd management team. So 23 he has one (1) radio operating on the same frequency as 24 the rest of the ERT or crowd management officers are 25 operating on.
2101 Q: Okay. So that he is on -- as you 2 say, he's on the same -- same radio system as the ERT 3 officers and then he has -- there's a second -- a second 4 radio transmission with respect -- system with respect to 5 the TRU team members? 6 A: Correct. And what happens is, one 7 officer stays in the TOC vehicle, and monitors the ERT 8 activity at the same time as they monitor the TRU 9 activity on two (2) separate radio systems so that if 10 there's a necessity to share information from one side to 11 the other, that they -- they can get that information 12 across quickly. 13 Q: And was it your understanding, or do 14 you know, did they have a problem with one vehicle, the 15 TRU team, and go to another vehicle? 16 A: From one TRU team vehicle to the 17 other? 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: Not that I'm aware of. We -- we use 20 the vehicle that's normally the TRU team TOC. That's the 21 one that I position myself in -- in the next few minutes. 22 Q: Then there's a -- there's a -- 23 there's a transmission, it's item 52 at 21:28. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED)
2111 2 Q: Then I'm going to play 53 because 3 that one (1) doesn't seem to be the one (1) that... 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 6 7 Q: Now, that's you getting on the system 8 at 21:28; is that correct? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And, so your car had to get on the 11 system as you went down to the -- 12 A: Yeah, there's -- there's a procedure 13 for getting into the total access channel and the car, 14 being my location was from the London area, I'm normally 15 on a -- at that time, on the London Com. Centre dispatch 16 group, so I had to make some changes to -- to the 17 programming from the car that allowed the Comm Centre to 18 put me into the same channel as the rest of the cars. 19 Q: And, how long did it take you to get 20 to the MNR parking lot and the TRU TAC -- TOC, excuse me? 21 A: In my little notepad, I've indicated 22 that at 21:45 I was at the TOC. 23 Q: And, that's at -- excuse me -- that's 24 at page 58 of Exhibit 410? 25
2121 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Exhibit 410 is your notes that we 4 were provided, just to double-check for everybody. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Which page, sir? 9 Q: Page 58. 10 A: Yes, that's the note. 11 Q: And, when you got to the MNR parking 12 lot, the TRU MNR parking lot where the TRU TOC was and 13 the ERT TOC was; what did you do? 14 A: I met there with Staff Sergeant 15 Skinner and also Staff Sergeant Lacroix was forming up 16 the crowd management team. 17 Q: And, yes? 18 A: And, it -- it took a while to get 19 everybody ready to go, so they were forming up on that 20 parking lot and I was in and out of the TRU team truck. 21 There was a number of basically issues going on there, so 22 it actually took us -- I -- I got a note here that at 23 21:55 Lacroix and the CMU were at the TOC location, so 24 that's when they start putting the teams together 25 Q: Okay. And that's the second note on
2131 page 58 of Exhibit 410? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And, once you got on the total access 4 channel, while you -- while you were in the car, could 5 you hear the radio traffic on the radio, the other radio 6 traffic? 7 A: Yes, anything to do with the ERT 8 personnel would have come across my radio, yes. 9 Q: And, I'm going to play twenty-one 10 (21) -- a number of entries here and ask if you heard 11 them. 12 The first is at 21:28. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 15 16 September 6, 1995 17 21:28 18 19 Track # 2128 20 21 Lima Two this is Alpha. 22 23 Go ahead Alpha. 24 25 We just stopped a pick-up from entering. Three males
2141 from Stoney, baseball bats and clubs, golf clubs. Just 2 for your information we have all their names and info. 3 They were turned back but they wanted to get through. 4 5 Ten four. You didnĂt relieve them of their hardware? 6 7 Oh yes, thatĂs a ten four and they definitely donated it 8 to the cause. 9 10 Lima One. What checkpoint was that again? 11 12 Lima One, this is Alpha Checkpoint, Alpha Checkpoint. 13 14 Ten four. Thank you. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And did you hear that transmission? 18 A: I -- I don't recall that. 19 Q: And, based on that, would it be fair 20 to say that the -- no, scratch that. 21 The next transmission is at 21:32. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 24 25 September 6, 1995
2151 21:32 2 3 Track # 2132 4 5 Lima Two, Oscar One. 6 7 Go ahead Oscar One. 8 9 These vehicles looks like theyĂre over the fence from the 10 park. The members are (unclear) vehicles, looks like 11 theyĂre removing objects from the trunk. CanĂt see what 12 it was if it was clubs I/A. 13 14 10-4 Oscar One are you ten four on that Lima One? 15 16 Ten four Lima Two, he just walked out but IĂll advise him. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Do you recall hearing that 20 transmission? 21 A: No, sir. 22 Q: No? The last one I played was 21:32; 23 the one before that was 21:28. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2161 Q: Then, the next one I'm going to play 2 is 21:34. Its elapsed time on the elapsed time list 3 approximately 10:26. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 6 7 September 6, 1995 8 21:34 9 10 Track # 2134 11 12 TAC Two to the ERT members on the ground. White 13 Suburban, TRU Suburban is deploying TRU members. Going 14 towards the gate. 15 16 ERT member on the ground in charge come back. 17 18 TRU, TOC, go ahead ERT member in charge on the ground. 19 20 10-4. Did you read our transmission that the white 21 Suburban is deploying TRU members 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And do you recall hearing that 25 transmission?
2171 A: No, I don't. 2 Q: And the -- what is your understanding 3 as to what is happening as a result of -- with respect to 4 this transmission? 5 A: Oh, it's the -- the TRU team members 6 being dropped off to -- to provide the observation as 7 requested. 8 Q: And the ERT in charge was asked -- 9 was being -- an ERT on ground was being advised of this 10 and do you know what the reference -- do you have any 11 understanding of what the reference to ERT on ground was? 12 A: Well, it would be the ERT on the 13 checkpoint or any ERT officers who are on observation. 14 My understanding there were some ERT officers who were 15 deployed in and around the cottages at that point in 16 time. 17 So they would be aware that TRU team 18 people were moving into their general area. 19 Q: And the reference -- we had one the 20 transmission I played at 21:32 was LIMA 1 and OSCAR 1. 21 OSCAR 1 is the ERT team being used as a observation team? 22 A: Correct. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's 3:30, 24 Commissioner, we didn't get as far as I'd hoped. But -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's slow
2181 moving but we just keep moving. Well we'll adjourn now 2 until -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: May 30th. Monday, 4 May 30th. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- on 6 Monday, May 30th at -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10:30. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- at 10:30. 9 Thank you very much. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Deputy 11 Carson. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 13 Deputy Carson. 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 15 adjourned until Monday, May 30th at 10:30 a.m. 16 17 (WITNESS RETIRES) 18 19 --- Upon adjourning at 3:30 p.m. 20 21 Certified Correct, 22 23 ____________________ 24 Carol Geehan, Ms. 25