1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 18th, 2006 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 Amanda Rogers ) (np) Student-at-law 16 17 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 18 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 19 Kevin Scullion ) 20 21 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 22 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 23 Colleen Johnson ) 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) 5 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 6 7 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 8 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 9 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 10 11 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 12 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 13 Jennifer McAleer ) 14 15 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 16 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 17 18 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 19 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np) Marcel Beaubien 3 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 4 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 5 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 6 7 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 8 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 9 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 10 11 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 12 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 13 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 14 Ian McGilp ) (np) 15 Annie Leeks ) (np) 16 Jennifer Gleitman ) 17 Robyn Trask ) 18 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 4 5 KEVIN YORK, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 10 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 113 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 139 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 144 10 11 12 Certificate of Transcript 165 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 CORRECTION TO P-1485 4 Topographical map of Ipperwash 5 Provincial Park marked by and 6 labelled, G. Hebblethwaite. 7 P-1537 Document Number 2005560. Resume of 8 Kevin York. 11 9 P-1538 Document Number 2005604. Handwritten 10 notebook entries of Kevin York, 11 August 24, 1993. 14 12 P-1539 Document Number 2005446. Handwritten 13 notebook entries of Kevin York, 14 September 05, 1995. 16 15 P-1540 Document Number 1000887. Handwritten 16 notebook entries of Kevin York, 17 September 06, 1995. 21 18 P-1541 Topographical map marked and signed by 19 Mr. Kevin York showing passage of school 20 bus and car, September 22, 1995. 79 21 P-1542 Document Number 1000447. Typed and 22 handwritten statement of Kevin York, 23 September 22, 1995. 92 24 25


1 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1543 Document Number 2005603. Handwritten 4 notebook entries of Kevin York, 5 September 07-11 and October 01, 1995. 98 6 P-1544 Document Number 1000446. Transcript of 7 taped interview of Kevin York, 8 September 08, 1995. 101 9 P-1545 Document Number 1004969. Transcript 10 re. Court Proceedings (Crown's evidence) 11 in R. v. Nicholas Abraham Cottrelle, 12 March 26, 1997. 102 13 P-1546 Document Number 1005296. R. v. Kenneth 14 Deane: Transcript of examination-in-chief 15 and cross-examination of Kevin York, 16 pages 201-227, April 09, 1997. 103 17 P-1547 Document Number 1004976. Transcript re. 18 Proceedings at Trial in R. v. Warren 19 Anthony George, pages 41-60, October 20 03, 1997. 103 21 P-1548 Document Number 1004799. Statement of 22 Constable Kevin York, February 18, 1998. 106 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 10:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning -- 9 MR. KEVIN YORK: Good morning. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- Commissioner. 11 The Commission calls as its next witness, 12 Constable Kevin York. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 14 morning. 15 MR. KEVIN YORK: Good morning. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. York. 17 18 KEVIN YORK, Sworn 19 20 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: Good morning. 22 A: Good morning. 23 Q: I understand that you are currently a 24 Constable stationed at the Brant County Detachment. 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: And you have provided a resume to the 2 Commission? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: If you would look at Tab 1 of your 5 brief of documents. It's Inquiry Document Number 6 2005560. 7 And is that your up-to-date resume? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: And I believe that the copy that you 10 have with the Registrar is redacted with respect to 11 personal information already. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, thank you. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And if we could make 14 that the next exhibit please. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1537, Your Honour. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1537: Document Number 2005560. 19 Resume of Kevin York. 20 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: And, Constable, you joined the 25 Ontario Provincial Police in 1988?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: You became a member of the Emergency 3 Response Team or ERT in 1993? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: You have had over the course of your 6 years, experience policing First Nations peoples? 7 A: In a limited capacity, yes. 8 Q: In a -- I'm sorry, in a...? 9 A: In a limited capacity, yes. 10 Q: All right. And that occurred when 11 you were at the Quinte Detachment in the Belleville area? 12 A: Actually my Native experience was at 13 the Brant County Detachment -- 14 Q: Okay. Thank you. 15 A: -- with the Six Nations Reserve. 16 Q: Thank you. In 1995 at the material 17 time you were stationed at the Brantford Detachment and 18 was a Provincial Constable? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And you were a member then of the 21 Number 3 District ERT in 1995? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: What was your first involvement with 24 respect to First Nation's matters involving Ipperwash? 25 A: My first involvement was in 1993 when


1 I attended the Ipperwash Army Base in regards to a 2 search. 3 Q: And were you apprised with respect to 4 the circumstances giving rise to the search? 5 A: The only recollection that I have it 6 was in regards to a shooting at a helicopter. 7 Q: All right. And if you would go to 8 Tab 2 please of your brief and Inquiry Document Number 9 2005604. We have there one (1) page of notes dated 10 August 23, 1993. 11 And are these your notes, your police 12 notes? Sorry, August 24th. Are these are police notes 13 from that day? 14 A: Yes, they are. 15 Q: And perhaps you could just briefly 16 advise as to what your usual note taking practice is when 17 creating these types of notes? 18 A: Certainly. I -- notes are usually -- 19 or created during or after the incident, shortly 20 thereafter. 21 Q: All right and -- 22 A: As soon as practicable. 23 Q: And what is the primary purpose of -- 24 for you -- for you keeping notes or maintaining notes? 25 A: To refresh my memory.


1 Q: And were any alterations, deletions 2 or omissions made with respect to these notes after your 3 creation of them? 4 A: No. 5 Q: I'd like to make this the next 6 exhibit please. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1538, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1538: Document Number 2005604. 10 Handwritten notebook entries 11 of Kevin York, August 24, 12 1993. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Now, what was your role specifically 16 with respect to the search? 17 A: I was an officer assigned to search, 18 actually physically search the property. 19 Q: What property was that? 20 A: It was on the Army Camp Base. Other 21 than that I have no recollection of the actual location. 22 Q: All right. And do you recall what 23 the object of the -- or object or objects of the search 24 was? 25 A: I've noted that the search warrants


1 were for -- for buildings, outbuildings, vehicles, any 2 temporary structures currently erected. And the search 3 was for firearms, ammunition, offensive weapons, 4 explosives and/or explosive devices? 5 Q: All right. And that is found or 6 reflected at the 17:20 entry of your notes? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: And I understand from your notes that 9 the search of the Army Base occurred or started at 18:15? 10 A: That's when my involvement commenced, 11 yes. 12 Q: That's when your involvement 13 commenced? All right. And you -- your involvement 14 ceased at or around 19:30? 15 A: Yes, it did. 16 Q: All right. And did you find or did 17 you seize anything pursuant to the search? 18 A: I did not, no. 19 Q: Did you encounter any hostile or 20 altercations or circum -- or circum -- such circumstances 21 during the course of the search? 22 A: I don't recall any. 23 Q: And did you have any further 24 involvement in that incident? 25 A: No, I did not.


1 Q: Thank you. I understand then that 2 the -- your next involvement in relation to Ipperwash 3 related matters was on September the 5th, 1995? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And do you recall what the 6 circumstances of your involvement was at that time? 7 A: May I refer to my notes. 8 Q: Yes, if you would kindly go to Tab 3 9 please, Inquiry Document Number 2005446. And are these 10 your notes from September the 5th, 1995 -- 11 A: Yes, they are. 12 Q: -- at least through to the 8:43 a.m. 13 entry? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did you make any changes, 16 deletions, or omissions to these notes since creating 17 them? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: I'd like to make this the next 20 exhibit please? 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1539, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1539: Document Number 2005446. 24 Handwritten notebook entries 25 of Kevin York, September 05,


1 1995 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: And if you take a moment to look at 5 your notes and refresh your memory perhaps you can just - 6 - you can tell us the circumstances of you involvement? 7 A: Certainly. It was Tuesday, the 5th 8 of September , 1995, when I received a telephone call 9 from Constable Dave Hall, he was also a member of the 10 Emergency Response Team, that was at approximately 1:20 11 in the morning, I was advised of an ERT detail. At 2:40 12 a.m. I attended the Brant County Detachment or Brantford 13 Detachment at that time. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: And at 4:30 approximately, 16 accompanied by Sergeant Stewart who was a member of the 17 Brantford OPP Detachment and Constable Brian Sharp, we 18 travelled to Forest. 19 Q: All right. And did you learn, once 20 you arrived at Forest, what your detail was going to 21 entail? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I believe that, according to your 24 notes at least, you had a briefing at 6:50 a.m. at the 25 Forest Detachment?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what did you learn at that 3 meeting? 4 A: I have no recollection of that 5 briefing. 6 Q: All right. Let me -- to ask the 7 question this way, and what do you recall you were 8 instructed to do with respect to your detail? 9 A: I don't recall any of the briefing 10 details. By my notes I can tell you what we did. 11 Q: All right. Perhaps you can tell us 12 what you did. 13 A: Sure. At 8:43 a.m. I was accompanied 14 by Sergeant Stewart and our assignment was to relieve 15 members at various checkpoints in the area. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: And I've noted the four (4) 18 checkpoints. 19 Q: All right. And so you were to 20 basically roam from checkpoint to checkpoint relieving 21 officers there? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And what was the -- what 24 -- what were -- was you assignment at the checkpoints? 25 A: At the checkpoints we were stopping


1 motorists and speaking to them, making them aware of the 2 situation, that the -- they were free to travel down the 3 roadway if they wished. 4 Q: And what was it that you had 5 understood about the situation that had developed 6 necessitating the checkpoints? 7 A: My understanding was that the 8 Ipperwash Provincial Park had been occupied and that 9 citizens were not allowed access. 10 Q: All right. And were you provided 11 with any of the details of the circumstances of the -- of 12 the entry into the Park by the First Nations people the 13 night before? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: All right. Did you search any 16 vehicles while you were at the checkpoint? 17 A: Not that I recall. 18 Q: Did you seize any items? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you have any particular mandate 21 with respect to the searching of vehicles or seizure of 22 items? 23 A: Not that I recall. 24 Q: All right. Were there any -- was 25 your mandate to selectively stop cars?


1 A: I don't believe so, no. 2 Q: All right. And did you learn 3 anything of note during the course of this shift? 4 A: No, there was nothing noteworthy. 5 Q: And if we proceed to Tab 4, this is 6 Inquiry document Number 1000887, you'll see that page 62 7 of your notes, top half, is the continuation of your 8 September 5th 1995, 8:43 a.m. entry. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And according to this entry, your 11 shift ended at about 19:00 -- is it 19:02? 12 A: My -- well, my shift actually ended 13 at 9:00 p.m. 14 Q: Right, okay. Thank you. Yes, sorry, 15 21:00. Thank you. 16 And do you recall any further briefings at 17 the Forest Detachment from that day? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: Do you recall learning anything of 20 note with respect to any incidents or occurrences in and 21 around either the Park or the Army Camp from that day? 22 A: From that day, no. 23 Q: All right. Now these notes continue 24 and appear to reflect your notes of your shift of 25 September the 6th, 1995. Is --


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I would like this document to be 5 made the next exhibit, please. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1540, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1540: Document Number 1000887. 9 Handwritten notebook entries 10 of Kevin York, September 06, 11 1995. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: And this is at Tab 4. And for 15 clarification, have you made any changes, omissions or 16 deletions to these notes since they were initially 17 created? 18 A: No, I have not. 19 Q: Thank you. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, perhaps you can tell us when 24 your shift commenced on September the 6th? 25 A: Certainly. At 6:18 a.m. I -- I


1 arrived at the Forest OPP Detachment and I was 2 accompanied by Sergeant Brian Stewart. 3 Q: Right. Were you provided with any 4 relevant or significant information with respect to any 5 events from the day be -- the day or night before? 6 A: I noted that there was a briefing 7 held, but the particulars of that briefing I do not 8 recall. 9 Q: And typically, can you recall who 10 provided you with -- you and your partner with briefings 11 during the course of the 5th and 6th? 12 A: I can't recall, no. 13 Q: All Right. Or where they occurred? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. And what was your 16 assignment, then, as of approximately 7:20 a.m. that 17 morning? 18 A: I was assigned to what was called 19 Checkpoint 'D', which was on Army Camp Road just north of 20 Highway 21. 21 Q: And was it -- 22 A: And -- 23 Q: Sorry. 24 A: I'm sorry. Near the main entrance to 25 the Camp.


1 Q: And was it across the road from the 2 Army Camp? 3 A: I believe so. It was on Army Camp 4 Road. 5 Q: Yes. And when you say north, can I 6 take it that north according to your notes, is Lake 7 Huron? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And so south, obviously, is Highway 10 21? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And if I know my directions, west 13 would be towards what -- what became the TOC? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And east, then, would be the Park 16 itself. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Thank you. All right. And were your 19 instructions any different or your purpose any different 20 with respect to being stationed at the checkpoint from 21 the day before? 22 A: I don't believe so, no. 23 Q: So you continued to stop vehicles and 24 advise people what was going on and that they ought not 25 go into the Park?


1 A: I don't know that we advised them 2 they ought not go into the Park, but just made them aware 3 of what was -- what was occurring at the Park. 4 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And how long 5 were you at Checkpoint 'D'? 6 A: I was at Checkpoint 'D' until 7:24 7 p.m. 8 Q: All right. And did anything of 9 consequence occur during the course of this shift at 10 Checkpoint 'D'? 11 A: I -- I have noted in my notes here, 12 in the late morning advised of an incident at Checkpoint 13 'A' which was East Parkway and Army Camp Road. 14 I've noted that no assistance was 15 requested from our unit at Checkpoint 'D'. And I believe 16 there was a total of six (6) officers assigned to 17 Checkpoint 'D'. 18 Q: Do you have any recollection what the 19 incident was that was reported to you that had occurred 20 at Checkpoint 'A'? 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. And did anything else of 23 -- did you learn anything else of consequence during the 24 course of your time at Checkpoint 'D'? 25 A: Not that I recall.


1 Q: All right. And did you make any 2 observations of note or consequence while you were at 3 Checkpoint 'D', either with respect to the vehicular 4 traffic or with respect to ongoings at the Army Camp 5 across the road? 6 A: No, I did not. 7 Q: All right. And at this point in 8 time, that is during the course of your duty at 9 Checkpoint 'D', had you learned any information with 10 respect to gunshots reportedly having been heard 11 emanating from the Camp or Park area the night before? 12 A: I don't recall that, no. 13 Q: Anything about the removal of picnic 14 tables down at the sandy parking lot? 15 A: I have no recollection of that. 16 Q: Any information with respect to the 17 possible existence of firearms in -- in the possession of 18 the occupiers? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. And what did you then do 21 at the end of your duty at the -- at Checkpoint 'D'? 22 A: At 7:40 I returned to the Forest OPP 23 Detachment. 24 Q: All right. So that would be 19:40 in 25 your notebook?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what was the purpose of returning 3 to Forest Detachment at that time? 4 A: I've noted in here it was a shift 5 debriefing. The particulars of that debriefing, no I 6 cannot recall. 7 Q: Now did you learn anything 8 nonetheless, at -- when you arrived at Forest Detachment 9 of significance? 10 A: Eventually yes. 11 Q: And what did you learn and when you 12 say eventfully, when -- when did you learn it? 13 A: I don't know precisely when I -- I 14 discovered it. But I don't know that it was at 7:40, 15 exactly when I returned. 16 Q: Fair enough, okay. What did you 17 learn? 18 A: I -- I was advised that an incident 19 had occurred in the area of Checkpoint 'A' which was at 20 Army Camp Road in East Parkway. 21 My notes indicate that I was advised that 22 a vehicle had been damaged. Further information 23 indicated that individuals were arriving at the 24 checkpoint with baseball bats, clubs and other weapons. 25 I was advised that some of the items had


1 been seized and the occupants of the vehicles had been 2 turned back. 3 Q: All right. And do you know what the 4 purpose was of you receiving this information? 5 A: Eventually we were advised to suit up 6 in our Crowd Management gear. 7 Q: All right. And when you were advised 8 to suit up? 9 A: I don't have a particular time for 10 that. 11 Q: Okay. And I do note that the 12 remaining entries do not have a time attached to them; is 13 that right -- 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: -- for the balance of September the 16 6th. 17 And can I ask you why there's no time 18 recordings with respect to the various events over the 19 course of that evening? 20 A: Once we're in our Crowd Management 21 gear, it's impossible to see your watch to record times, 22 to note times, so I had no -- no information as far as 23 the time at any of these events. 24 Q: And when did you make the notes that 25 appear at page 54 from your -- in your notebook right


1 through to page 62 which takes us to 4:15 a.m. September 2 7th? 3 A: These notes were made prior to the 4 8th of September 1995. 5 A: Precisely what time I can't say. 6 Q: Were they made over the course of 7 September the 7th? 8 A: They could have been, yes. 9 Q: When would the other option be, if it 10 was before the 8th? 11 A: I'm sorry. Before my interview with 12 SIU on the 8th, those notes were made prior to that. 13 Q: Do you recall the time of that 14 interview? 15 A: Yes, I believe I have it noted. 16 Q: And if you would perhaps look at Tab 17 12, or you can look at your notes, whichever you prefer. 18 A: That was at 2:35 p.m. on the 8th of 19 September. 20 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now at this stage 21 then, when you are advised to suit up, can you tell us -- 22 did you receive any briefing or information about the 23 purpose of your suiting up? 24 A: At some point I was advised that the 25 unit would be proceeding to the sandy parking lot to


1 restore order in the sandy parking lot. 2 Q: And by "restore order", what did you 3 understand the specific task of the -- the unit to be? 4 A: Well basically that; to restore the 5 order in the sandy parking lot. My understanding was 6 that it was still open to vehicular and -- and pedestrian 7 traffic for that matter and that these incidents had 8 occurred at that location; the incidents that I'd 9 indicated earlier. 10 Q: All right. And did you receive this 11 information while you were still at the Forest 12 Detachment? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: What -- what units were -- were you 15 being called out as part of? 16 A: A Crowd Management Unit. 17 Q: All right. And how many ERT teams 18 were present at the Forest Detachment when this 19 information was being provided? 20 A: When the information was being 21 provided I don't know whether there was more than the 22 Number 3 District team there. 23 Q: All right. To your knowledge, was 24 the Tactical and Response Unit there? 25 A: I don't know that I saw them at


1 Forest Detachment, no. 2 Q: All right. And what -- what dress 3 did you suit up in? 4 A: In our Crowd Management gear. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And our tactical greys which we may 7 have been wearing at the time for that day. 8 Q: All right. And -- and is that known 9 as -- as soft TAC or hard TAC? 10 A: With the Crowd Management gear it 11 would be hard TAC. 12 Q: All right, thank you. And did you 13 have any night vision equipment? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: And did you receive instructions then 16 to deploy down to the TOC once you were suited up? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did you proceed to do -- to leave at 19 that time? 20 A: Initially we were actually deployed 21 and some of the officers left and they were told to 10-19 22 which means return to the Detachment. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And then we were deployed once again 25 and at that time I did -- I did leave Forest Detachment.


1 Q: All right. And do you know who gave 2 the initial command if you will, to -- to deploy from the 3 Forest Detachment, the one that was revoked? 4 A: I don't recall. 5 Q: Thank you. Did you -- do you recall 6 what you did during the time period in between -- while 7 you were waiting for the second order to deploy? 8 A: I know that the Crowd Management Unit 9 was positioned out behind the Forest Detachment and we 10 went through formations at the rear of the Detachment. 11 Q: Do you recall who led you through 12 those formations? 13 A: I believe it was Sergeant 14 Hebblethwaite. 15 Q: All right. And was Staff Sergeant 16 Lacroix there yet? 17 A: I don't believe so. 18 Q: All right. Did you receive any new 19 equipment that evening? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: What was that? 22 A: It was an ASP baton, collapsible 23 baton. 24 Q: Had you ever used or been trained on 25 -- on the ASP baton before this event?


1 A: No, I had not. 2 Q: Did you receive any training that 3 night? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: Do you recall what that comprised of? 6 A: Basically how to open and close the 7 baton. 8 Q: All right. Did you receive any 9 actual training or practice time, if you will, on the 10 actual use of the baton in terms of technique and force? 11 A: I don't believe so, no. 12 Q: All right. Is it fair to say the ASP 13 baton had different weight, density, shape, and material 14 from the baton that you were used to using? 15 A: I think that's fair. 16 Q: And would you have preferred to have 17 had some field training with the ASP baton prior to being 18 deployed with it that night? 19 A: No, I don't think so. I -- it's a -- 20 it's a hard impact use of force option. It's very 21 similar to the -- the wood stick, just much more 22 convenient. And I currently carry the ASP baton. 23 Q: All right. And are there any 24 locations on the body which you are taught not to strike 25 with any baton?


1 A: Well, unless it's a matter of life 2 and death you wouldn't strike somebody in the neck or the 3 head. 4 Q: All right. The skull or jaw area? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Or the base of the skull? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: All right. All right. And did 9 anything else of consequence then happen while you were 10 waiting at the -- the Forest Detachment prior to the 11 second order to deploy? 12 A: Not that I recall. 13 Q: All right. All right. And did Staff 14 Sergeant Lacroix eventually arrive? 15 A: Yes, he did. 16 Q: And what happened thereafter? 17 A: We were advised to attend the -- what 18 was called the TOC. And accompanied by Constable George 19 Wilson I attended that location. 20 Q: Where was the TOC located? 21 A: I believe it was on East Parkway 22 Drive. 23 Q: We've -- we've heard evidence it was 24 located at a MNR parking lot off East Parkway Drive, is 25 that familiar?


1 A: It was in a parking lot. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I don't recall that it was MNR. 4 Q: And did you receive any further 5 instructions prior to leaving the Forest Detachment for 6 the TOC? 7 A: I don't believe so. 8 Q: Or any further information about the 9 circumstances that you were expecting to encounter? 10 A: Not that I recall. 11 Q: All right. Did you receive any 12 information in relation to the possibility of firearms 13 existing in the possession of the occupiers? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Or any other offensive weapons? 16 A: The earlier information had indicated 17 that there was bats and clubs, but I hadn't received 18 information in regards to firearms. 19 Q: All right. And on your way down to 20 the TOC from the Forest Detachment did you overhear any 21 radio communications of significance? 22 A: Not that I recall. 23 Q: All right. Once you arrived at the 24 TOC what did you and your unit do? 25 A: Basically we were advised to form up,


1 form into our squads. I was positioned in the Contact 2 Squad which is the front of the squad, or front of the 3 unit. 4 Q: Is that the front line of officers? 5 A: Yes, yes. 6 Q: And how many officers were in that 7 line? 8 A: There would be six (6) in the line 9 with two (2), a leader -- a team leader and assistant 10 team leader directly behind them. 11 Q: All right. And who was the team 12 leader and assistant team leader that night? 13 A: I don't recall. 14 Q: All right. Who was your commanding 15 officer that night? 16 A: Wade Lacroix. 17 Q: And do you know who the second in 18 command was? 19 A: Sergeant Hebblethwaite. 20 Q: All right. Thank you. Did you see 21 either Inspector Carson or -- or Sergeant Wright at the 22 TOC? 23 A: I don't recall seeing them. 24 Q: All right. Now, were you told what 25 your objective was with respect to this mission at the


1 TOC? 2 A: My understanding was the unit would 3 proceed to the parking lot and restore order if 4 necessary. 5 Q: All right. Now, at any time over the 6 course of this evening were you told that the Crowd 7 Management Unit was being deployed, at least in part, to 8 act as a distraction to allow the TRU team to get into 9 observation positions? 10 A: No, I was not. 11 Q: Now, Sergeant Skinner testified that 12 after the Sierra was unable to deploy invisibly near the 13 sandy parking lot it was decided that the Crowd 14 Management Unit would be deployed, at least in part, to 15 act as a distraction, does that reflect your memory? 16 A: I have no information on that. 17 Q: All right. If that was part of the 18 plan would you have expected to be told that as a member 19 of CMU? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Why not? 22 A: That -- I was -- that -- that would 23 be a command decision which probably -- or may not be 24 related to the unit itself. 25 Q: The fact that the unit was being


1 deployed as a distraction? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Is that something that, 4 as far as you understood, was part of the -- the training 5 of the CMU? 6 A: I had never been advised that that 7 was part of our training, no. 8 Q: All right. Did you know that the TRU 9 was being deployed on this mission as well? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And when did you learn that? 12 A: I don't recall. 13 Q: All right. Prior to your deployment? 14 A: I don't recall exactly when I found 15 that out. 16 Q: All right. Did you learn what the 17 purpose of the TRU deployment was that -- that evening? 18 A: I believe that it was basically to 19 provide support for the Crowd Management Unit. 20 Q: All right. Were you involved in any 21 joint briefings with TRU? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Is this the first time that you had 24 been deployed as part of the Crowd Management Unit? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Have you been deployed previously as 2 part of the former Crowd Control Unit? 3 A: I was not a member of the former 4 Crowd Control Unit. 5 Q: All right. Had you ever been 6 deployed in a joint ERT crew operation before? 7 A: I don't recall whether I had or not. 8 Q: Were there any qualifications or 9 restrictions placed on the objective, as you understood 10 of restoring order to the sandy parking lot? 11 A: I do recall that, at the briefing, we 12 were told -- or I was told anyways that we were not going 13 into the park itself. We were only going down to the 14 parking lot. That we would not enter the park. 15 Q: And were you provided with any 16 rationale for that instruction? 17 A: Not that I recall. 18 Q: And so that we understand what your 19 state of mind was as -- as you left the TOC, what was 20 your understanding would -- would be entailed in 21 restoring public order to the sandy parking lot? 22 A: Well hopefully just our presence in 23 the location that the occupiers would move back into the 24 park. 25 Q: All right. So that idea was that the


1 occupiers should not be in the sandy parking lot? 2 A: I don't believe it was they shouldn't 3 be in the parking lot it was that the -- the information 4 was that they were there with weapons. 5 Q: And the weapons that you have already 6 described in the nature of non-firearm weapons? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. Now, we have heard some 9 evidence at this Inquiry, in the form of OPP scribe notes 10 amongst others, that suggesting that a couple of hours 11 earlier or thereabouts, Inspector Carson had indicated at 12 the command post that if the occupiers were, in effect, 13 just having a hotdog roast or something to that effect 14 around a campfire, to leave them alone and perhaps wait 15 until morning. 16 Did you have any knowledge of that 17 sentiment? 18 A: I had no knowledge of that. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm just laughing 20 because, for the record, I think it was a marshmallow 21 roast not a hotdog roast. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sorry. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Actually, in the 24 scribe notes it says campfire. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Campfire, okay.


1 2 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 3 Q: Campfire or hotdog -- in any event, I 4 think you've got the general gist of -- of it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: It is Fri -- it is Thursday. Is it 7 Friday or Thursday? 8 In any event, was it your expectation that 9 there would be surveillance teams by the sandy parking 10 lot to act as eyes for the command during this operation? 11 A: I didn't know that. 12 Q: All right. Now, in your view was 13 deploying in the evening, did that prov -- did that pose 14 additional risks or challenges to this Crowd Management 15 Unit, the fact that you were deploying in the evening? 16 A: Well obviously being dark, visibility 17 is obviously not as good; that was a decision made by 18 command staff. What their reasoning was I have no idea 19 but... 20 Q: Okay. And just to be absolutely 21 clear, were you given any information with respect to the 22 possible existence of firearms of any type in possession 23 or possibly in possession of the occupiers in the Park or 24 in the sandy parking lot? 25 A: I think in -- in general I had heard


1 something about firearms but not specific -- specific to 2 that evening. 3 Q: All right. So that wasn't something 4 that factored in as a possible risk that you would have 5 to meet when you deployed that evening? 6 A: I didn't expect to meet firearms, no. 7 Q: All right. Now you've indicated that 8 you were assigned to the front contact element if you 9 will, of the Crowd Management Unit? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And do you recall what side of the 12 line you were on? 13 A: I was the second from the far right. 14 Q: Okay. And that would be then the 15 south end of the line as it's marching down East Parkway 16 Drive? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. Do you recall who was 19 directly beside you on your -- on your left? 20 A: On my left I don't recall. 21 Q: On your right then? 22 A: It was Constable Brian Sharp. 23 Q: And was that your partner that 24 evening? 25 A: Yes, it was.


1 Q: And I understand that there are other 2 elements in the Crowd Management Unit that were deployed? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Can you just tell us very briefly 5 what those other elements were? 6 A: Yes. In the Crowd Management Unit, 7 there's the -- you have your Contact Squad, you have a 8 right cover, you have a left cover, you have an Arrest 9 Squad and then you also have the -- the leaders basically 10 in the middle. 11 Q: Okay. And that evening you had a 12 full complement? 13 A: I believe so. 14 Q: And were there also K-9 units 15 deployed? 16 A: Yes, there were. 17 Q: And prisoner van? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And what was your specific 20 role -- let me ask you this. What is the role of the 21 Contact Squad in contrast to the left and right Cover 22 Squads? 23 A: Well basically we would -- marching 24 down the road we would be the first element that reached 25 -- to reach the parking lot. We -- were out front; we're


1 the first. 2 Q: The first line of potential contact? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what your specific role on the 5 Contact Squad? 6 A: Just as a member of the Crowd 7 Management Unit Contact Squad. 8 Q: All right. What type of crowd -- of 9 a crowd and crowd behaviour did you think you were going 10 to encounter that night? 11 A: I did not know what we were going to 12 encounter. 13 Q: All right. Did you then receive 14 orders to advance onto East Parkway Drive? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And do you -- do you 17 recall approximately what time you received those order? 18 A: I have no idea. 19 Q: All right. Do you recall whether it 20 was after 10:00 p.m. that night? 21 A: I have no idea. 22 Q: No idea, all right. What formation 23 were you in when you exited the TOC site? 24 A: I'm not a 100 percent sure whether we 25 were in a stack and went into a box or we deployed from a


1 box formation. 2 Q: All right. And what's the difference 3 between a stack and box formation? 4 A: A stack is a basically a stack of two 5 (2), all the way back would be two (2), where the box 6 formation is -- would be six (6) and then you would have 7 your team leader and assistant team leader behind you. 8 Then you'd have your -- your left cover 9 and their squad leaders and so on and so on. 10 Q: And then behind them the right cover. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So that's -- the left and right Cover 13 Squads aren't side by side in this formation -- 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: -- they're behind? All right. Thank 16 you. 17 And I wonder if you might turn to your 18 notes at this time, this is at Tab 4, Exhibit P-1540. 19 And I believe it's page 55 of your notes. If everyone 20 looks at the bottom right hand corner, you'll see the 21 stamps on the bottom of the notes. It's page 5, the 22 fifth page into this document. 23 All right. Now first of all, what 24 communication capacity did you have as you deployed? 25 A: I believe our communications that


1 night were limited to the portable radio that we're 2 assigned, whether we're working the road or in a Crowd 3 Management situation. 4 Q: All right. And was your radio 5 working that night? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Were you able to transmit as well as 8 receive? 9 A: I could although it's very difficult 10 with the Crowd Management gear on to -- to transmit. 11 Q: Why is that? 12 A: Just because of the gloves. You've 13 got all your equipment on; you would have been holding a 14 shield and your ASP baton and you actually have to -- 15 with mine I know it wasn't wired into the helmet or I 16 didn't have an ear piece so it was basically a mic, so I 17 would have to key the mic to speak. 18 Q: Okay. And was there any protocol 19 with respect to who at -- in the Crowd Management Unit 20 should be conducting the majority of transmissions? 21 A: That would be -- unless there was an 22 absolute emergency where you had to transmit, that would 23 be Staff Sergeant Lacroix or Sergeant Hebblethwaite. 24 Q: All right. Do you recall -- do you 25 recall how fast your pace was as you exited?


1 A: I think I've noted just an average 2 pace, an average walk down East Parkway. 3 Q: All right. What's the first thing 4 that you recall as you commenced your advance? 5 A: The first thing that I recall is I 6 observed a reddish or an orange glow approximately 100 or 7 150 yards ahead on the right. 8 Q: Is that yards or metres? 9 A: I might have... 10 Q: I'm looking at the bottom of page 55 11 of your notes. 12 A: Sorry, that's metres. 13 Q: Okay. Thank you. And I'm sorry that 14 was from the TOC site from your...? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And -- 17 A: Well, no, sorry. It was 100 to 150 18 metres ahead of me -- 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- that I saw it, not from the TOC 21 site. 22 Q: Thank you very much. And that's as 23 you looked towards the Park area? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And do you recall if this was very


1 early in the march? 2 A: I believe it was. 3 Q: All right. And what if anything did 4 you surmise from that observation? 5 A: I believed that there was somebody at 6 that location and I believed -- to me it looked like a 7 cigarette, it was the -- the glow. 8 Q: All right. And to your knowledge was 9 any action taken in result or in response to that 10 observation? 11 A: Yeah. Almost at the same time that I 12 observed the -- the glow I received information that the 13 TRU team had located a person at that point and I've 14 noted that they were smoking -- 15 Q: All right. 16 A: -- is what -- the information that I 17 was given. 18 Q: And you would have received that 19 information likely from -- from whom? 20 A: That information possibly from the 21 TOC. I'm not -- I'm not sure. 22 Q: All right. And were you able to hear 23 any direct communications either from or to the TRU team? 24 A: No, we cannot. 25 Q: All right. Do you recall -- was


1 there a particular channel that you had, that the CMU had 2 -- was using that night? 3 A: I don't recall what channel we were 4 using. 5 Q: All right. Now, if you'd just 6 quickly go to Tab 6, and perhaps keep your Tab 4 7 available to you. This is Exhibit P-438 and it is the 8 recording, if you will, from the TAC channel for 9 September the 6th, from 10:27 p.m. to 11:10 p.m. 10 This has been identified as reflecting the 11 transmissions as they were recorded between the CMU and 12 the TOC over the course of that advance. 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: And now I'd like to ask first of all, 15 whether you've had an opportunity or when's the first 16 time you had an opportunity to -- to review this 17 document? 18 A: The first time I saw this document 19 was last evening. 20 Q: And did it help you in any way; 21 refresh your memory with respect to the events of that 22 night? 23 A: Not particularly. 24 Q: All right. Now, if we look at the 25 first page, and you'll see if the time is accurate, it


1 seems to be the first entry is at 10:27 p.m. and you'll 2 see that the fourth transmission from Lacroix: 3 "Okay. Halt." 4 And then his next transmission: 5 "Good news, they've got rocks and 6 sticks piled up and we all know we can 7 beat that. Rocks and sticks, that's in 8 our bailiwick. All we have to worry 9 about is little brown stocks and black 10 barrels. 11 Okay. We're going to be -- to 12 advancing in a -- in a moment." 13 And then the command: 14 "Advance." 15 Do you recall that occurring at all? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: Can you assist us as to whether this 18 -- the occasion for halting was the observation of this 19 person with the -- the reddish glow? 20 A: I don't know that. 21 Q: All right. I think then that we 22 won't proceed using the TAC channel transcript and we'll 23 -- we'll go back to your notes at Tab 4. 24 A: Okay. Thank you. 25 Q: All right. Now, in any event once


1 that object was determined not to be a threat then what 2 occurred next? 3 A: Okay. Initially we were advised to 4 take cover while TRU investigated, then we received 5 information that the male that was along the shoulder was 6 -- had in his possession a stick. 7 Q: Okay. I think you've -- you've -- 8 A: Armed. 9 Q: -- jumped ahead a little bit in the 10 chronology. 11 A: I'm sorry. 12 Q: It's probably my fault. We had just 13 reviewed the incident where the CMU stopped because -- 14 presumably because of the individual with the reddish 15 glow? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And if we go back to your 18 notes, page 56, I believe they say something to the 19 effect, At almost the same point TRU advised they had 20 located the person at this point smoking? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And then what was the next 23 thing that you found out? 24 A: I was advised that -- by radio that 25 the male had an object in his hands.


1 Q: All right. And what did you do as a 2 result? 3 A: We were advised by radio to take 4 cover while TRU investigated. 5 Q: Okay. And what does take cover mean? 6 A: Basically the unit separated, went to 7 each shoulder, and I believe we actually took a knee, 8 kneel -- knelt down. 9 Q: And what -- what net -- why take a 10 knee? What's that about? 11 A: Basically just to rest. 12 Q: Sorry? 13 A: To rest and -- and to get lower to 14 the -- to the ground. 15 Q: And what was the concern with respect 16 to the object in the person's hand that was spotted? 17 A: Potentially it being a firearm. 18 Q: All right. And was -- was -- did you 19 receive further information about what the object was? 20 A: Eventually we received information 21 that the male was armed with a stick and that he was 22 backing away down the road. 23 Q: Okay. And did you then commence or 24 resume your advancement towards the Park? 25 A: Yes, we were positioned back on the


1 roadway and proceeded down the road. 2 Q: And what formation did you assume? 3 A: I believe we were in a box again. 4 Q: All right. And if you look at your 5 notes then on page 56, about two-thirds (2/3's) down. 6 A: Yes, we were eventually advised to 7 cordon, yes. 8 Q: And what does that mean? 9 A: Cordon basically is you go from the 10 box into a cordon formation which I've heard it described 11 similar to an airplane with the -- the Contact Squad in 12 the front, the left cover to the left -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- almost like wing, the right cover 15 to the right like the other wing and then your Arrest 16 Squad at the back. 17 Q: All right. And what did you take 18 from the fact that you were now commanded to go from the 19 box formation to the cordon formation, if anything? 20 A: I didn't take anything from it. 21 Q: All right. Now, what was the 22 lighting conditions along East Parkway Drive as you were 23 advancing? 24 A: It was dark but I believe I had noted 25 that on page 55 about three-quarters (3/4's) of the way


1 down it was clear visibility. I've noted that it 2 appeared to be a full or an almost full moon. 3 Q: All right. Was there any artificial 4 street lights or lights from cottages as you marched 5 down? 6 A: I don't recall any artificial 7 lighting. 8 Q: Okay. And what's the next event then 9 that you -- you make a note of on your -- as you proceed 10 along East Parkway Drive? 11 A: While still approximately 200 metres 12 from the entrance to the Park -- 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: -- I've noted persons began to shine 15 a very bright spotlight in our direction. I could not 16 see the light from where it was being shone, only the 17 beam that was casting off into the trees. 18 Q: Okay. And do you recall, you said 19 that that was 200 metres from the Park, where were you in 20 relation to the bend that, you know, that goes from East 21 Parkway Drive to the sandy parking lot area? 22 A: I wouldn't know what the measurements 23 were. 24 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Were you on that 25 bend though at this point, or still in advance of it?


1 A: I believe we were still advancing 2 towards the bend. 3 Q: Okay. Thank you. And you were still 4 in the front line? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: What happened next? 7 A: We were continuing to advance in the 8 cordon formation. I observed the male who I assumed had 9 been along the shoulder of the road and had the stick and 10 who I believed had been smoking. I could see him and as 11 we walked forward he was stepping back and he just 12 continued to step back as we continued forward. 13 Q: Back towards the Park? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Was he -- did you hear 16 him saying anything? 17 A: I don't recall if he said anything. 18 Q: All right. And then you continued to 19 advance, notwithstanding? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what happened next? 22 A: As we rounded the curve into the 23 parking lot I observed individuals in the sandy parking 24 lot. I have noted in my notebook, fifteen (15) to twenty 25 (20) individuals.


1 Q: Yes. 2 A: Upon reflecting, I don't know that it 3 was fifteen (15) to twenty (20), there was just a number 4 of individuals in there. 5 Q: All right. And what -- how far away 6 approximately, from the sandy parking lot were you when 7 you made this observation? 8 A: I believe we were at or just coming 9 up to the curve. 10 Q: And you say in your note, 11 "Rounded the curve into the parking 12 lot, observed approximately fifteen 13 (15) to twenty (20) persons in the 14 lot". 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And did you make any 17 observations with respect to what those individuals were 18 doing? 19 A: All the individuals that I saw had 20 some sort of a bat or a club, I noted, included pieces of 21 pipe, wood, and I've noted a steel sign. 22 Q: All right. Thank you. Did the -- 23 what did the CMU do as a result of seeing these 24 individuals? 25 A: We just continued to advance towards


1 the park itself. The individuals that were in the 2 parking lot just continued to step back pretty much at an 3 even pace with us. 4 Q: All right. And continuing in the 5 cordon formation? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: So you were in the front line still? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I'm noticing -- just help me 10 here, page 57 about two-thirds (2/3's) down, you make the 11 notation: 12 "ERT continued to advance..." 13 A: "and males continued to back up." 14 Q: Okay. 15 "...and males continued to back up." 16 All right. Thank you very much. 17 A: Until they were on the far side, it 18 would be the east side of the fence in the park. 19 Q: Until they -- so in other words, they 20 entered the park, these individuals? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And prior to you entering the sandy 23 parking lot? 24 A: No, I believe we were in the sandy 25 parking lot when they finally stepped over the fence


1 and... 2 Q: All right. Were there still 3 spotlights or a spotlight being shone? 4 A: Yes I believe so. 5 Q: And did that affect your visibility 6 in any way? 7 A: From my position -- 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: -- I don't recall it affecting my 10 visibility. I believe the spotlight was off to the north 11 and I was at the very south end of the unit on the 12 Contact Squad. So -- although it was illuminating me it - 13 - I didn't have any difficulty seeing straight in. 14 Q: All right. And as you saw straight 15 in and you saw the individuals go back into the Park, 16 what if anything else did you observe? 17 A: I observed that there were two (2) 18 fires inside the -- the Park; one (1) was directly in 19 front of me and one (1) was off to the north a short 20 distance. 21 Q: And at some point do you stop the 22 advance? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And where are you when the advance is 25 stopped?


1 A: Approximately 5 feet from the fence 2 line. 3 Q: Are you making these observations 4 when you have stopped? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did you make any further observations 7 as you were stopped 5 feet in front of the fence? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: What -- what are those? 10 A: I observed, basically in front of me 11 was a full size school bus inside the park. I also 12 observed that there was a dumpster positioned inside the 13 park. I believe it was in front of the bus. 14 I believe that the dumpster was in the 15 area where there was no fencing and possibly it was being 16 used to close up the hole in the fencing. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: I observed males inside the park. 19 Everyone that I observed that evening to me, appeared to 20 be males. They were all armed with some type of a weapon; 21 clubs, bats, wood, pipe. And -- 22 Q: All right. But no firearms? 23 A: I did not see any firearms. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: And at that point I noted Officers


1 began to report items were being thrown at them. 2 Q: And were any objects thrown at you at 3 this time? 4 A: Yes, I've noted three (3) -- three 5 (3) items while I was standing at the fence. I observed 6 a log, like a fire log, thrown it landed a short distance 7 off to my right. I then -- I also observed a male threw 8 a piece of pipe overhand from the area of the school bus. 9 It struck my shield and fell to the ground. 10 I was also struck with a piece of rock or 11 brick which also struck my shield and fell to the ground. 12 Q: Now, during this period of time then, 13 did you have any verbal interactions with any of the 14 occupiers? 15 A: I did not. 16 Q: And how far away from you was the 17 closest occupier at this time? 18 A: I couldn't say for sure. 19 Q: And I guess I wanted a sense as to 20 were they back at the bus -- in the bus area or were they 21 closer to the fence behind trees or do you have any 22 recollection? 23 A: I believe closer to the fence but as 24 far as distance it would be a guess. 25 Q: Could you touch -- reach out and


1 touch one (1) of them if you had to? 2 A: No, I couldn't. 3 Q: Okay. So they were more than an 4 arm's length away from you? 5 A: Oh, yes. 6 Q: All right. And just to be clear 7 were -- was any physical force required to remove the 8 occupiers during this first advance? 9 A: None whatsoever that I saw. 10 Q: Was any intimidation techniques 11 employed with the objective of encouraging the occupiers 12 to go back into the Park on the first advance? 13 A: The only thing I would say at some 14 point there was some shield chatter. I don't recall 15 whether that was done on our approach or while we were at 16 the fence but there was shield chatter. 17 Q: All right. I think you might make 18 reference to that in your notes later on but just -- what 19 is the purpose of shield chatter? 20 A: It's basically an intimidation 21 factor -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- tactic. 24 Q: Now, did you -- you indicated that 25 you observed a bus?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And just describe the bus for us. 3 A: The only note that I have here is 4 that it was a full-size school bus behind the fencing. 5 Q: Do you recall whether or not it had 6 its headlights on? 7 A: I don't recall. 8 Q: Or whether it was running? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q: Or what direction it was facing? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: Did you have any concern about the 13 fact that there was a bus positioned in the Park within 14 your -- within your view line at that time? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you know that the -- the 17 occupiers had reportedly used vehicles including this bus 18 to run into military vehicles from time to time? 19 A: I did not know that. 20 Q: All right. If that was the -- the 21 case would that have been relevant information for you to 22 have had in order to allow a proper risk assessment of 23 the situation you were facing? 24 A: It wouldn't really be my position for 25 a risk assessment.


1 Q: All right. Was there any physical 2 engagement with the occupiers over the fence line during 3 this first advancement that you could see? 4 A: No, other than the object being 5 thrown at us. 6 Q: Okay. Do you recall there being any 7 verbal interaction between any of the members of the 8 Crowd Management Unit and the occupiers over the fence? 9 A: There was verbal -- the occupiers on 10 the other side of the fence were -- were saying things to 11 us, yes. 12 Q: Can you -- what type of things? 13 A: I noted here that males began to 14 yell, swear, and insult officers. One (1) male said 15 something like, Come and get -- come and get it. Those 16 things won't help you. 17 While that was being said I could observe 18 some of the persons swinging their weapons. 19 Q: All right. And you're just reading 20 some passages -- passage from the bottom of page 58 and 21 over to the top of page 59 of your notes? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. How long did -- did you 24 remain at this position, at the fence line? 25 A: I'd noted in my notes that we were


1 there three (3) to five (5) minutes. It seemed that long 2 to me standing there -- 3 Q: All right. 4 A: -- but in reality it could have been 5 much less. 6 Q: Okay. That was your estimate on the, 7 either the 7th or the 8th of September? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And at this point in time 10 did anyone from the Crowd Management Unit attempt to 11 deliver any message to the occupiers with respect to 12 either the purpose of the Crowd Management Unit being 13 there or what the objective of this mission was? 14 A: Not that I heard or saw. 15 Q: Or that if they remained in the Park 16 then there would be no -- no engagement? 17 A: Not that I heard or saw. 18 Q: All right. All right. And what 19 happened? And you believe there was shield chatter at 20 this point in time? 21 A: I know there was shield chatter that 22 evening -- 23 Q: All right. 24 A: -- I'm just unclear exactly at what 25 point.


1 Q: All right. And then what -- what did 2 your unit do after remaining at the fence line at 3 approximately -- for approximately three (3) to five (5) 4 minutes or thereabouts? 5 A: There was an order given to withdraw, 6 which -- basically to move back. 7 Q: All right. And did you withdraw? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And how far or where did you withdraw 10 to? 11 A: I've noted here: 12 "The unit withdraw to the roadway." 13 Q: And would that be the East Parkway 14 roadway or...? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: And also west -- westerly on East 18 Parkway. I believe some of the unit actually moved down 19 East Parkway a short distance. 20 Q: Okay. You, as being on the 21 frontline, did you actually get back to the pavement? 22 A: I believe I was pretty much right on 23 the edge of the pavement and the sandy parking lot. 24 Q: And so at this moment in time then, 25 technically, is your mission successful?


1 A: At that time, yes. 2 Q: All right. Your objective has been 3 satisfied? 4 A: Appears to be, yes. 5 Q: All right. And what happened next? 6 A: While we were -- while we had 7 withdrawn back to the roadway, the occupiers, 8 approximately fifteen (15) to twenty (20) of them, began 9 -- stepped over the fence and began to come out into the 10 parking lot with the various weapons that they had, the 11 baseball bats and the wood. And items, rocks were being 12 thrown at the unit. 13 Q: All right. And did the Crowd 14 Management Unit respond to the fact that people had come 15 over the fence and into the parking lot? 16 A: Eventually, as they came over the 17 fence, we went back as far as we could. The -- I believe 18 the right cover actually went back to the point where 19 there was actually a fence, I believe it was right at the 20 curve of Army Camp Road and East Parkway. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: And they were unable to go back any 23 farther. And the occupiers had entered the parking lot 24 and were coming closer and closer to us -- 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: -- as objects continued to be thrown. 2 Q: All right. And what, if anything, 3 was the Units reaction? 4 A: Eventually we were given an order -- 5 my recollection was a order to punchout a complete unit. 6 Q: And when you say, an order to 7 punchout, what kind of a punchout was this? 8 A: It was a full team punchout, which is 9 approximately, basically, the team proceeds, runs 45 feet 10 and then stops, with the hope of basically forcing them 11 back into the park without a confrontation. 12 Q: Did you say 4 to 5 feet? 13 A: 45 feet. 14 Q: 45 feet, thank you. 15 A: 45 feet, yes. 16 Q: All right. And so did that occur, 17 did you punchout? 18 A: There was a punchout, yes. 19 Q: All right. And what transpired 20 during the course of the punchout? 21 A: I believe some of the occupiers 22 turned, went back into the park, ran back towards the 23 park, but a number of them stood their ground with the 24 weapons they had and engaged our team. 25 Q: All right. Now just -- during the


1 punchout, what's the position of your shields as you are 2 running the 45 feet? 3 A: It would be basically in front of you 4 to protect you as you're running. 5 Q: And are your visors up or down? 6 A: They're down the whole time. 7 Q: Okay. And do you have anything else 8 in your hand as you -- as you do the punchout? 9 A: I would have had the -- the ASP in my 10 right hand because I'm right-handed. 11 Q: And would it have been open? 12 A: Extended, yes. 13 Q: All right. You indicated, then, at 14 that point in time there was a physical engagement with 15 some of the occupiers? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Were you involved in a physical 18 engagement? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Can you describe that? 21 A: The engagement that I had was with a 22 large individual who had a baseball bat. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: He struck me directly on the shield 25 and it glanced off. I used my baton and struck him in


1 the, I believe it was the left knee. He turned and went 2 back towards the fence line and I proceeded up towards 3 the fence line. 4 Q: And to your knowledge, when you made 5 contact with his knee did he -- did he stumble or fall? 6 A: I don't recall him stumbling. 7 Q: All right. And so now you're up at 8 the fence line again? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Are other officers at the fence line 11 with you? 12 A: I don't recall whether anyone was 13 there with me, or not. 14 Q: And so then what -- what happened -- 15 well let me put it his way. We have heard evidence that 16 prior to this full punchout there was a partial or left 17 cover punchout which preceded it. 18 Do you have any recollection of that? 19 A: I have no recollection of the left -- 20 Q: And is it in your notes anywhere? 21 A: No, it's not. 22 Q: All right. In any event, what 23 transpired next? You're at the fence line? 24 A: Yeah, I went up to the fence line, 25 there was an individual there who had obtained a large


1 sign. I don't know whether it was the same individual I 2 had struck in the knee. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: He had -- it was like a large steel 5 post or steel sign post and he had it kind of tucked into 6 his stomach and he was swinging it back and forth. 7 There was a little bit of a standoff 8 there. He couldn't -- I couldn't get any closer. We 9 basically stood there, a standoff. And then I believe 10 the order -- there was an order given to withdraw. And 11 event -- I eventually went back and got closer to my 12 contact squad. 13 Q: Okay. And withdraw towards where? 14 A: Back towards East Parkway and Army 15 Camp Road, the roadway. 16 Q: And as you're withdrawing, are there 17 still -- are there any occupiers still in the sandy 18 parking lot? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: All right. Do you recall hearing any 21 messages being delivered by any of the occupiers with 22 respect to why they were -- why they were maintaining 23 their ground? 24 A: No, I don't. 25 Q: All right. And so you're withdrawing


1 back to the roadway, did you make it back to the roadway? 2 A: I believe I was -- I was on the 3 roadway, yes. 4 Q: What happened next? 5 A: At that point, I observed a -- I 6 observed the school bus. 7 Q: And just for everyone's note, are you 8 looking at page 60 of your police notes -- 9 A: Yes, I am. 10 Q: -- at the top? Thank you. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And do -- you observe a school bus 13 coming from where? 14 A: From the -- I don't know that I saw 15 it come out of the Park. My first recollection is just 16 seeing the school bus coming through the sandy parking 17 lot pushing the dumpster. 18 Q: Okay. And you're at -- on the 19 pavement at this time? 20 A: I believe so, yes. 21 Q: All right. And what next do you 22 observe? 23 A: I obviously don't know what the 24 intentions of the driver of the bus are. He's pushing 25 this large dumpster through the lot and my only thought


1 is what's he going to do? How am I going to stop this? 2 Q: All right. 3 A: And the -- the dumpster eventually 4 rolled off to the side and the bus continued towards the 5 Crowd Management Unit. 6 Q: Okay. What happens next? 7 A: Basically all I could see was the 8 grill of the bus. I was concentrating right on the 9 grill. 10 Q: Why the grill? 11 A: I don't know. It was just tunnel 12 vision. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And I just felt that -- it felt to me 15 like he was looking right at me and I was the one he was 16 going to run down. 17 So I waited. I felt that if -- I saw some 18 of the unit going to the south ditch, but I felt if I 19 went there he was simply going to follow me there. 20 So I waited until he was reasonably close 21 and I ran to the north side. I didn't -- I didn't think 22 that he could manoeuver that quick and I ran to the north 23 side and the bus went past me. 24 Q: All right. And so just to be clear 25 then, you observed officers go into the south ditch.


1 This is the south side of East Parkway Drive. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And relative to the center of the 4 road, where was the bus travelling along as he -- it 5 approached your area? 6 A: I believe the bus was travelling, 7 predominantly it would be west bound in the east bound 8 lane. 9 Q: All right. And as it came by you or 10 close to you, you went into the ditch on the north side 11 of the East Parkway -- 12 A: I didn't go into the ditch. I just 13 ran towards the north -- 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: -- as the bus went by, went past me. 16 Q: All right. Okay. And what happened 17 next? 18 A: At that point, once the bus went past 19 me, I have no recollection of the bus again. I didn't 20 look to see where it had gone, although I knew it had 21 gone farther west on East Parkway. 22 At that point I proceeded from the north, 23 back into the -- it would be the eastbound lane, which is 24 basically where I would be if I was in a formation. I 25 didn't know whether the unit was going to reform or not.


1 And it was at that point I saw this -- the car coming. 2 Q: All right. And the car coming, did 3 you see the car -- where the car came from? 4 A: No, I did not. 5 Q: And where is -- where is the car when 6 you first see it? 7 A: I believe when I first saw the car, 8 I'm not sure whether it was on the roadway or just about 9 to the roadway. 10 Q: Okay. And it's advancing towards the 11 -- the TOC or at the westerly direction? 12 A: It's heading westerly. 13 Q: All right. And then what do you 14 observe next? 15 A: At this point I'm in the -- roughly 16 in the middle or slightly into the eastbound lane. I 17 observed the car coming towards the unit, and again, 18 tunnel vision, it felt like it was coming directly 19 towards me and my thought was I'm not going to be able to 20 outmanoeuvre a car and I'm going to get run over. 21 As the vehicle came towards me, for some 22 reason, all of a sudden, it turned to the north, it would 23 be to the driver's right and struck some Crowd Management 24 Unit officers that were on the north side. 25 Q: Now, just to be clear, you said that


1 -- did you say you were on the driver's side of the car 2 when it turned north towards the lake? 3 A: I would have been on the driver's 4 side, yes. 5 Q: So you were on -- you were between 6 it, the car, and the TOC at this point, on the -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- on the west side? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And approximately how many feet away 11 from the car were you when you saw it make contact with 12 officers? 13 A: I believe it was approximately about 14 20 feet. 15 Q: And how many officers did you see -- 16 did you see struck by this car when it turned north 17 towards -- 18 A: I noted three (3) to five (5) 19 officers were struck and either went up on the hood or 20 there were some that fell to the ground. 21 Q: And do you have specific recollection 22 of that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Can you tell us what your 25 recollection is today, please?


1 A: Of the officers? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Yes, I recall the -- as the vehicle 4 came down it veered in. A couple of the officers went 5 onto the hood and the -- then a couple of officers were 6 on the ground and the car reversed. And I believe the -- 7 there was officers there, possibly the ones that were 8 struck were helping the other ones back up. 9 Q: Okay. And you said it reversed? 10 A: It reversed. 11 Q: And what did you do? 12 A: At that point -- I think it was at 13 that point I drew my firearm. I believed that the car -- 14 the car reversed, it stopped, and it appeared to me that 15 it was about to come forward again. 16 Q: Why did you discharge your firearm? 17 A: It was my belief that the driver of 18 the car was going to proceed forward once again and run 19 over the officers that he had just struck. 20 Q: And how many rounds did you discharge 21 at the car? 22 A: I fired one (1) shot at the car. 23 Q: Is that one (1) -- one (1) shot? 24 A: Yeah. Yes, one (1) round. 25 Q: Can you tell me what you aimed at?


1 A: I was aiming at the centre of the 2 windshield on the driver's side, so basically where the 3 driver would have been sitting. 4 Q: Could you actually see the driver? 5 A: No, I could not. 6 Q: Could you see any of the occupants? 7 A: No, I could not. 8 Q: Did you -- did you strike -- to your 9 knowledge, did you strike the vehicle or any occupant? 10 A: With my round? 11 Q: With your round? 12 A: I have no idea. 13 Q: Okay. Based on your observation, did 14 you disable the car? 15 A: There was other shots fired. As I 16 was standing there the vehicle did not come forward. 17 Q: Okay. Did you continue to watch the 18 vehicle after you discharged your firearm? 19 A: No, upon firing one (1) round, almost 20 simultaneously something drew my attention to the bus. 21 I'm not sure whether I heard it, I saw it, but I realized 22 I was now standing in the -- basically in the eastbound 23 lane and the bus was reversing in the eastbound lane and 24 was about to run me over. 25 Q: So now the bus is reversing and it's


1 to the west of you as it's reversing? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what, you turned around and saw 4 it? 5 A: I believe I just looked over my 6 shoulder, I saw the bus reversing, and I knew I had to 7 get out of there. 8 Q: And what did you do? 9 A: I ran to the closest ditch, which 10 would be the south ditch, and went into the ditch. 11 Q: Okay. All right. Did you continue 12 to -- did you continue to follow the path of the bus 13 then, as you were in the ditch? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: And what did you observe? 16 A: I was in the ditch. I observed the 17 bus back -- back right past me, and the wheels were 18 basically at the -- I recall them being right at the edge 19 of the -- within feet of basically my head where I was. 20 Q: Okay. Was there any -- did you hear 21 any gunshots at this time? 22 A: No, I did not. 23 Q: All right. And what -- what happened 24 next? 25 A: Once the bus reversed and I felt that


1 it was safe to get out of the ditch, my intention was to 2 get out of the ditch and run to the north side. In the 3 south ditch there felt like there was no protection. I 4 didn't know whether the bus driver was going to come 5 forward again. And had he decided to come forward into 6 the ditch, I would have been crushed. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: I managed to get up onto the road. I 9 observed the bus a distance east of me, and then I 10 observed -- I observed Constable Sharp fire at least one 11 (1) round at the bus. And then I have no recollection of 12 the bus or the car after that. 13 Q: All right. What did you do after 14 Constable Sharp discharged his firearm? 15 A: I think it was almost immediately we 16 were told to basically withdraw, withdraw. And I tried 17 to stay with Brian, Constable Sharp and we moved back 18 down the road. 19 Q: All right. Now, I understand that 20 you had occasion to prepare a diagram, or at least 21 markings on a diagram later in September of '95? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: All right. And if you go to -- 24 excuse me, Tab 20 of your book, this is Inquiry document 25 100079. And I know this is a small reproduction of the


1 map that is behind you, but can you tell us whether or 2 not you affixed markings and comments to this diagram? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: All right. And I'd like to make the 5 physical diagram the next Exhibit, please. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-1541. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1541: Topographical map marked and 9 signed by Mr. Kevin York 10 showing passage of school bus 11 and car, September 22, 1995. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: Now just briefly, can you tell us the 15 circumstances under which you came to prepare this 16 diagram? 17 A: I believe this diagram was produced 18 when I was contacted by, I think it was Acting Sergeant 19 Harwood. 20 Q: And who was he acting on behalf of? 21 A: The Ontario Provincial Police, I 22 believe. 23 Q: Sorry, but was he part of the SIU 24 investigation? 25 A: He was part of the investigation, I'm


1 not sure whether he was part of the SIU investigation. 2 Q: Okay. Thank you. And if you would 3 look at also Tab 14 now of your brief, Inquiry document 4 1000447, the statements of Kevin York interviewed by M. 5 S. Harwood, September 22, 1995. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do you recall, was that the day 8 that you gave the interview and prepared the diagram for 9 the Officer? 10 A: I don't recall the specific day, but 11 I do recall doing it. 12 Q: All right. Fair enough. And in this 13 -- I just wonder, in order to help us understand the path 14 of the vehicles and where you were in relation to it, you 15 have a lazar marker there. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And -- or if you wish -- well, maybe 18 -- can you read it from that distance, or would you like 19 to put that in front of you? 20 A: No, I can read it from here. 21 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Good, that makes 22 it much easier. Perhaps you can start, then, with the 23 first time -- the location of the bus when you see it. 24 A: Yeah -- 25 Q: All right. And it looks to me like


1 that diagram is sideways, perhaps. Two (2) things, could 2 you pick up the hand mic, because it will be easier -- 3 A: Sure -- 4 Q: -- for you to speak into it while 5 you're pointing at it. And perhaps we can flip that 6 diagram because otherwise we're going to be thoroughly 7 confused. 8 All right. So now north is pointing up, 9 approximately? 10 A: Yes, it is. 11 Q: All right. And maybe just so 12 everyone can see the boundaries, can you just point where 13 the general vicinity of the park is? 14 A: I believe that's the boundary of the 15 park right there. 16 Q: Thank you. The fence line and the 17 lake is to the north. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And point out East Parkway Drive so 20 everyone can see. 21 And Army Camp Road. All right. 22 And then the intersection at the sandy 23 parking lot. 24 A: That would be it right in here. 25 Q: Okay. That's great, thank you. All


1 right. So you were pointing out and perhaps you can 2 describe it, for the record, where the bus was when you 3 first see it? 4 A: Yeah, at that location right there. 5 I've noted that's the starting point of the bus. 6 Q: All right. And then do you show the 7 path of the bus? 8 A: It comes through the parking lot -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- and onto East Parkway. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: And then westbound basically in the 13 eastbound lane. 14 Q: And I believe that you have marked on 15 that diagram your position, or your approximate position, 16 and then you have -- did you mark your position when you 17 first saw the bus? Or can you show us on that map 18 approximately where it was? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yeah I can't really... 23 Q: All right. Okay, fair enough. And 24 then moving -- at that point you lose sight of the bus 25 and you see a car; do you identify on the map where you


1 first see the car? 2 A: Yeah, I believe the car when I first 3 saw it was in -- right in this area here. 4 Q: And that's essentially at the bend in 5 the road where the sandy parking lot then is adjacent to 6 the -- the road? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you've marked I think, with "KY 9 Number 1", your approximate position when the -- the car 10 struck the members of the CMU? 11 A: Yeah, it's kind of hard to read here. 12 Q: Yes, fair enough. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And the car is where? 15 A: The car, when it stuck members, I 16 believe is right in this area. 17 Q: And that's by a driveway is it? 18 A: On this map it would -- it looks to 19 be just east of the driveway. 20 Q: Yes. And pointing to the north? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you're to the west. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Fair enough. And where 25 is your approximate position when you fire upon the car?


1 I believe you mark it "KY2" and it's all very close. 2 A: Yes. I believe it -- I believe I 3 actually took a couple steps before I fired. So it was 4 just slightly -- be to the east. 5 Q: All right. And you're still on the 6 road here and you're about 20 feet away did you say? 7 A: Initially when the vehicle struck the 8 officers I've indicated it was -- it was about 20 feet. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Now I -- I believe the car reversed 11 approximately 20 feet so -- it may have been 12 approximately 40 feet, 15 metres roughly. 13 Q: When you discharged your firearm? 14 A: When I discharged my firearm. 15 Q: All right. All right. And then you 16 show -- where do you -- do you show where you go after 17 you fire on the car? Is that marked by "KY3"? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: And that's where? 20 A: It's right where the laser pointer is 21 there. 22 Q: Okay. And then the bus reverses -- 23 is reversing back towards you? 24 A: Yes. On the map here it's got, if 25 you follow the arrow, it actually has it in the opposite


1 lane but it actually -- my recollection is that it 2 actually reversed pretty much the path it travelled down 3 the road. 4 Q: All right. And then when you went 5 into the ditch, where -- where was that approximately? 6 A: I believe it was right in this area. 7 Q: All right. So the south side of -- 8 A: South side. 9 Q: -- East Parkway Drive. Okay, thank 10 you. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: All right. Now a few more followup 15 questions with respect to these events. The first is, at 16 any time were you able to see the occupants of the bus? 17 A: No, I was not. 18 Q: Or the number of occupants in the 19 bus? 20 A: No, I could not. 21 Q: Did you see any firearms, either 22 within the bus or protruding from the bus? 23 A: No, I did not. 24 Q: Did you see any evidence of firearm 25 discharge from the bus?


1 A: No, I did not. 2 Q: Do you recall approximately how fast 3 the bus was travelling when it advanced in the westerly 4 direction past you? 5 A: I think I initially indicated I 6 believed it was travelling 30 mph. I think that's -- no, 7 reflecting on it I think it -- it's a little high. 8 But I believe that at its speed there was 9 a chance I wasn't going to be get -- I wouldn't get out 10 of the way. 11 Q: All right. And you have occasion to 12 give evidence at -- at various trials in relation to 13 these events? 14 A: Yes, I have. 15 Q: And I believe that you have variously 16 indicated that the bus was travelling at about 30 17 kilometres an hour in one (1) situation. On another 18 occasion you said 25 to 30 kilometres an hour. And on a 19 third occasion you said 25 to 30 miles an hour. 20 So can you help us as to which is the 21 marker -- 22 A: I think the kilometres per hour is 23 more accurate. I think the miles per hour is -- is too 24 fast. 25 Q: All right. Thank you. Did you see


1 the bus strike any officers at any time? 2 A: No, I did not. 3 Q: Okay. Do you recall how fast the bus 4 was going when it reversed towards the Park and past you? 5 A: No, I don't. 6 Q: All right. Do you recall how fast 7 the car was going when it advanced towards you and other 8 officers? 9 A: I don't recall now how fast it was 10 travelling. 11 Q: Okay. Do you -- were you able to see 12 how many people were in the car at any time? 13 A: No, I could not. I believe the 14 headlights of the car were on as it was travelling 15 towards me -- 16 Q: All right. 17 A: -- which also made it difficult to 18 see. 19 Q: Okay. So it had an affect of -- of 20 blinding you to a degree? 21 A: When it was coming directly at me, 22 yes. 23 Q: All right. And -- but when you 24 discharged your firearm were the headlights in your eyes? 25 A: No, they weren't.


1 Q: And you couldn't make out the number 2 of people or who was in the car? 3 A: No, I couldn't. 4 Q: Did you, at any time, see any 5 firearm, either within the car or protruding from the 6 car? 7 A: No, I did not. 8 Q: Did you see any evidence of firearm 9 discharge from the car? 10 A: No, I did not. 11 Q: All right. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: All right. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Vella, 17 we're going to have to take a break some time this 18 morning. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Oh, I'm so sorry. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'll leave 21 it up to you to decide when. I don't know exactly where 22 you're -- 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, well, I wonder if 24 I -- if I could just go a little bit longer? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine,


1 whatever you think is appropriate. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Are you all right, 3 Officer? 4 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. I apologize for 6 that. 7 THE WITNESS: No problem. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: What -- what firearm were you 11 carrying that evening? 12 A: My -- my force issued firearm, which 13 was a Sig .229 -- P-229 40 caliber Smith and Wesson. 14 Q: All right. And I understand that you 15 had a tritium reflective sight? 16 A: Tritium? Yes. 17 Q: Sorry, tritium? 18 A: Tritium. 19 Q: Could you just tell me what that is? 20 A: Basically it's -- it's just a 21 material that reflects light. It allows us to obtain the 22 sight -- a sight picture in darkness. 23 Q: And how does that work? 24 A: I don't know what the -- how the 25 substance works, but basically it's reflective and the


1 two (2) sights on the back are a slightly different 2 colour than the sight on the front, and basically all you 3 have to do is put the front sight between the rear 4 sights, even it up, and you have a proper sight picture. 5 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, in the -- in 6 the -- prior to your discharging the -- your firearm 7 against the car, did you hear any gunshots? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: Do you recall how many? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: Did you hear any gunshots concurrent 12 with your discharge of -- of your firearm? 13 A: There could have been. I -- it would 14 have been a hard thing to determine, as I'm pulling the 15 trigger, whether there's other rounds going off. 16 Q: All right. Were there -- did you 17 hear gunshots after you discharged your firearm? You 18 told us about -- 19 A: At the car? 20 Q: -- Constable Sharp? 21 A: Yeah. At the car I -- I can't 22 recall. 23 Q: Were you able to ascertain the number 24 of gunshots you heard? 25 A: It was numerous but I -- I don't know


1 how many. 2 Q: And the period of time over which you 3 heard them, in terms of minutes, seconds? 4 A: Seconds. 5 Q: Seconds? Were you able to 6 distinguish the types of guns being shot? 7 A: Not the types of guns, but I do have 8 a recollection of the different sounds as the guns were 9 going off; different guns will make different sounds. 10 Q: Okay. So you -- you could ascertain 11 there were different guns being discharged but not types 12 of guns? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Were you able to ascertain the 15 direction of the gunshots? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. Did you -- did you see 18 firearms in the possession of any occupiers, First 19 Nations persons that night? 20 A: No, I did not. 21 Q: Okay. Perhaps that would be an 22 appropriate time to take the break now. 23 A: Thank you. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 25 for fifteen (15) minutes.


1 2 --- Upon recessing at 11:32 a.m. 3 --- Upon resuming at 11:47 a.m. 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 6 resumed. Please be seated. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just before I proceed, 8 Mr. Registrar, did I make the document at Tab 14, Inquiry 9 Document 1000447 an Exhibit, it's the statement given 10 to -- 11 MR. REGISTRAR: No you didn't, Ms. Vella. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Would you kindly make 13 that the next Exhibit, please? 14 MR. REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-1542 Your 15 Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1542: Document Number 1000447. 18 Typed and handwritten 19 statement of Kevin York, 20 September 22, 1995. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: Now, Constable at any time over the 24 course of this night did you observe any muzzle flashes 25 or anything comparable to a muzzle flash?


1 A: Not that I recall. 2 Q: Did you see any individual shot in or 3 around the sandy parking lot? 4 A: No I did not. 5 Q: Or on the roadway? 6 A: No I did not. 7 Q: Did you see any person stumble in the 8 sandy parking lot during the course of hearing the 9 gunshots or immediately thereafter? 10 A: No I did not. 11 Q: Was your attention turned to the 12 sandy parking lot during that timeframe? 13 A: No it was not. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Now, after you returned to the 18 roadway and the bus has now passed by you, the car is out 19 of your sights as well, what happens next? 20 A: Again eventually we were withdrawn to 21 the TOC on East Parkway. The only recollection I have of 22 what occurred after that was -- I believe it was one (1) 23 of the Sergeants or the Staff Sergeant asked who had 24 discharged their firearm. And I advised them that I had. 25 Q: And just before we get you back to


1 the TOC, do you recall out on the roadways was there any 2 count of personnel done? 3 A: Actually, yes there was. We had to 4 account and make sure all our Members were present. 5 Q: And when you -- on your way back 6 along East Parkway Drive to the TOC did you talk to 7 anybody? 8 A: I don't recall if I did or not. 9 Q: What was going through your mind as 10 you travelled back to the TOC, do you recall? 11 A: That I almost died. 12 Q: Did you have any contact, at all, 13 with any TRU team members that evening? 14 A: No I did not. 15 Q: When you're back at the TOC who is -- 16 who is there to greet you? 17 A: I don't recall whether anybody 18 greeted us when we got back. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether 20 Inspector Carson was there or Sergeant Wright? 21 A: No I don't. 22 Q: Or Inspector Linton? 23 A: No I don't. 24 Q: All right. Do you have a very good 25 memory as to what was going on when you got back to the


1 TOC or your time at the TOC when you arrived back? 2 A: No the only memory that I have once 3 we're at the TOC was identifying myself as one (1) of the 4 officers that had discharged their firearm. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: And my next recollection is, we were 7 advised that we could -- we could leave. 8 Q: And did you turn over your firearm at 9 that time at the TOC? 10 A: No I did not. 11 Q: And do you know why not? 12 A: I'm -- I'm assuming because we were 13 still active, I was still in uniform, I was still in a 14 marked police car. 15 Q: Do you recall having any discussions 16 with Ken Deane when you back at the TOC? 17 A: I did not. 18 Q: All right. And who did -- where did 19 you go after you left the TOC? 20 A: I'm unclear whether we went to the 21 Forest Detachment and then went to our hotel. Again I 22 was with Constable George Wilson. Eventually I ended up 23 at the hotel in -- I believe it was in Grand Bend. 24 Q: In Grand Bend? Okay. And you 25 indicated -- at any -- did you -- did you turn over your


1 firearm at any time? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And did you make a note of that? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: If you look at your notes at Tab 4 6 Exhibit P-1540 in the last page of that document which is 7 page 62 I believe of your police notebook? 8 A: Yes? 9 Q: There's an entry at 4:15 a.m. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you just recount what occurs 12 at that time? 13 A: I've noted at 4:15 a.m. inspector 14 arrived at my room, took possession of my pistol and I've 15 noted the serial number and although the name's not there 16 it's Inspector Dale Linton. 17 Q: All right. Now, did you take any 18 steps in the mean -- in -- in the interim to preserve the 19 integrity of your firearm? 20 A: Not especially, no. 21 Q: Okay. You kept it on your person 22 or...? 23 A: Oh, yes, I did. 24 Q: All right. Had you ever discharged 25 your gun prior to that night?


1 A: Only for target practice or 2 destroying an animal, yes. 3 Q: Okay. Now, do you recall what 4 transpired over the course of the day on -- first of all 5 when did you go off duty from that shift? 6 A: I have no note to the actual time 7 that I went off -- off duty. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: My first note is at 4:15. After the 10 incident my next note is at 4:15. Inspector arrived at 11 my room. I believe I was asleep at that time when he 12 knocked on the door. 13 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Moving then onto 14 the next day, this is September the 7th, do you recall 15 were you on-duty at all during the 7th of September? 16 A: I wasn't active as a member, no, as 17 an ERT member. 18 Q: Do you recall what you did on the 7th 19 of September? 20 A: I met with Norm Peel. 21 Q: All right. And did you meet with him 22 to receive or obtain any legal advice? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: All right. And if you go to Tab 8 25 please, this is Inquiry Document Number 2005603 and this


1 appears to be excerpts from your notes for the dates 2 September 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 30th, and October the 1st, 3 1995. 4 Are those your notes of those days? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And have you made any changes, 7 deletions, or omissions since creating those notes? 8 A: No, I have not. 9 Q: I'd like to make that the next 10 exhibit please? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1543, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1543: Document Number 2005603. 14 Handwritten notebook entries 15 of Kevin York, September 07- 16 11 and October 01, 1995. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: And on September the -- September the 20 8th then were you -- this indicates that you were not 21 active as an ERT member? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: But you continued to be at the -- the 24 Grand Bend Hotel did you? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And you had a meeting with the SIU 2 and the CIB at 14:30? 3 A: Yes, I did, with SIU investigator Ed 4 Wilson and OPP CIB investigator Trevor Richardson. 5 Q: All right. And it appears that you 6 move from the Grand Bend motel to a motel in Sarnia? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: September the 9th -- I'm sorry, did 9 you have any -- any active operational duties that day? 10 A: On the 9th? 11 Q: On the 8th? 12 A: On the 8th? No, I did not. 13 Q: All right. And then September the 14 9th -- 9th, 10th, 11th, 30th, and October the 1st do you 15 recall what your general assignment was with respect to 16 Ipperwash? 17 A: Generally I was assigned to security 18 detail basically at the Forest Detachment. 19 Q: All right. The security detail at 20 Forest Detachment, okay. And -- fair enough. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Now, I understand, as you indicated, 25 that you gave an interview to Trevor Richardson on


1 September the 8th? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And if you would look at your 4 document at Tab 12, this is Inquiry Document 1000446, 5 it's entitled, Taped Interview of P/C Kevin York, 8 6 September 1995. 7 And also present was investigator Ed 8 Wilson, as you've noted? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And this is -- when you gave these 11 ans -- firstly, does this accurately set out your answers 12 to the questions posed? 13 A: I believe so, I haven't had 14 indication to read this one (1), but yes -- this 15 particular one. 16 Q: Well, let's put it this way: And 17 when you gave your answers, were they true and accurate? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And do you have any reason to believe 20 that they are -- that they are inaccurate today? 21 A: No. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'd like to make this 23 the next Exhibit please? 24 MR. REGISTRAR: P-1544 Your Honour. 25


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1544: Document Number 1000446. 2 Transcript of taped interview 3 of Kevin York, September 08, 4 1995. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: I understand that you gave testimony 8 in the proceeding of the R. versus NAC? 9 A: NAC? 10 Q: If you look at Tab 15, we're using 11 initials. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I'm reminded actually that -- that 14 that was -- privacy was -- was waived on this matter. So 15 it's says R. versus Nicholas Abraham Cottrell. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And we have produced your examination 18 and cross-examination given at that trial, at pages 1 to 19 17. At the time you gave these answers were they true 20 and accurate? 21 A: Yes, they were. 22 Q: And do you adapt these -- adopt these 23 answers as true and accurate today? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'd like to make this


1 the next Exhibit, please. 2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-1545 Your 3 Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1545: Document Number 1004969. 6 Transcript re. Court 7 Proceedings (Crown's 8 evidence) in R. v. Nicholas 9 Abraham Cottrelle, March 26, 10 1997. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: I also understand that you gave 14 evidence at the trial of R. versus Kenneth Deane? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: Tab 16, Inquiry Document 1005296, 17 we've produced the excerpt of your examination and cross- 18 examination from pages 201 to 227. 19 When you gave your answers to those 20 questions were they true and accurate at the time? 21 A: Yes, they were. 22 Q: And do you adopt them as true and 23 accurate today? 24 A: Yes I do. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Make that the next


1 Exhibit, please. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1546 Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1546: Document Number 1005296. R. 5 v. Kenneth Deane: Transcript 6 of examination-in-chief and 7 cross-examination of Kevin 8 York, pages 201-227, April 9 09, 1997. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: And I'd like you to go next to Tab 13 18, please. Your transcript of testimony given at the 14 trial of R. versus Warren Anthony George, pages 41 15 through to 60. When you gave these answers were they 16 true and accurate? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And do you adopt them as true and 19 accurate today? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Make that the next 22 Exhibit, please. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1547 Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1547: Document Number 1004976.


1 Transcript re. Proceedings at 2 Trial in R. v. Warren Anthony 3 George, pages 41-60, October 4 03, 1997. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: Now if you go to Tab 17, please. 8 This is an excerpt -- or this is a newspaper article and 9 it's Inquiry document number 20017353, it's an article by 10 the Toronto Star, April 10, 1997 reporting on evidence 11 given at the Deane trial. 12 And your -- it's indicated that during the 13 course of that trial, in the third column, you agreed 14 with the suggestion by the Crown Attorney that the riot 15 squad would have been sitting ducks and victims of 16 virtual carnage if they'd come under fire from AK-47's, 17 as you were marching down towards the park. 18 Do you recall that? 19 A: Yes, I do. 20 Q: And is that your view? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: In the event that it had been 23 confirmed that the First Nations occupiers had assault 24 weapons of the nature of mini-Rugers or AK-47's, in your 25 estimation would that have been an appropriate assignment


1 for this -- the Crowd Management Unit? 2 A: We're not equipped to deal with 3 firearms, although the Tactical Rescue Unit was deployed, 4 but we are not equipped to deal with firearms. 5 Q: Thank you. Finally, if we go to Tab 6 19, please. This is -- appears to be a transcript of an 7 interview given by you on February 18, 1998 as a witness 8 officer, with respect to the SIU investigation into the 9 injuries sustained by Cecil Bernard George. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And in this interview you indicate 12 that you had -- you did not observe his arrest or 13 apprehension; is that right? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And did you see him at any time over 16 the course of the evening of September the 6th? 17 A: It's possible he was one of the 18 individuals that I saw in the parking lot, but I can't 19 identify him. 20 Q: All right. Fair enough. 21 A: When we first approached or when they 22 come out into the parking lot. 23 Q: And would you have seen him or did 24 you see any prisoner in a prisoner van? 25 A: No, I did not.


1 Q: Thank you. And were the answers you 2 gave at this interview true and accurate? 3 A: Yes, they were. 4 Q: And do they continue to be? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Make this the next exhibit, please. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1548, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1548: Document Number 1004799. 10 Statement of Constable Kevin 11 York, February 18, 1998. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: Now we have heard evidence at this 15 Inquiry that there was procured, in the aftermath of 16 these events, certain T-shirts and a mug. Did you 17 purchase any mug or T-shirt which was produced in the -- 18 after the -- the events of September the 6th, 1995, 19 reflecting Ipperwash? 20 A: I did purchase a T-shirt. 21 Q: And do you recall what was on the 22 T-shirt? 23 A: I only recall there was an OPP 24 emblem, and I think it said TRU and ERT. And I think 25 there was a feather on it.


1 Q: All right. And do you recall -- do 2 you still have that T-shirt? 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: And what happened to it? 5 A: Shortly after the Ipperwash or -- I 6 don't know whether -- even if it was during, but there 7 was some controversy over the T-shirts and I disposed of 8 mine. 9 Q: And why did you dispose of yours? 10 A: Because it was controversial and I 11 didn't want to be in possession of it. 12 Q: I wonder if we could put on the 13 screen -- I'm going to show you two (2) images. The 14 first image is Exhibit P-458. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And I believe you have a copy of that 19 on your desk. 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: Now do you recognize the -- the image 22 and the T-shirt? 23 A: Yes, I do. 24 Q: And what -- how would you recognize 25 that? What do you recognize that to be?


1 A: That's the T-shirt I purchased in 2 1995. 3 Q: All right. And when you bought this 4 T-shirt, what message did you take from the symbol that 5 we see? 6 A: When I purchased it, I didn't take 7 any message from it. I purchased it as basically a 8 memento of -- of the project down there. And I didn't 9 take any symbolism, it was just a personal item for me. 10 Q: Perhaps we could now put up on the 11 screen the image -- Exhibit P-1494, please. Now have you 12 seen any item with this image on it? 13 A: I saw that image last evening, yes. 14 Q: Okay. Had you seen it before last 15 evening? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. Thank you. Now when you 18 were engaged in -- in the Forest detail security in 19 September to October 1 of 1995, where were you staying? 20 A: Can I refer to my notes? 21 Q: Yes, you can. I believe at Tab 8 are 22 your notes, Exhibit P-1543, reflecting that time period. 23 A: Yeah. What page of my notes is it? 24 Q: What page? 25 A: Yeah. Does it say at the bottom?


1 Q: I'm sorry, page 62 -- 2 A: Yes, 3 Q: -- and forward, 62 I think to 65. 4 And then you start a new book, page 3 and 4. 5 A: We're staying in Sarnia. 6 Q: All right. You continued to stay at 7 the Sarnia Motel. Did you have occasion to be bumped at 8 the Pinery Park during that timeframe? 9 A: Eventually I did stay at the Pinery, 10 yes. 11 Q: When? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I've got the 10th of October. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: I was security at Pinery Park. 18 Q: Okay. All right. And so let me ask 19 you these questions then: Did you -- while stationed at 20 Pinery Park did you, at any time, see a beer can with a 21 hole through it, some sand in it, a feather stuck in it, 22 and OPP caution or yellow tape around it -- 23 A: No, I did not. 24 Q: -- or anything like that? Did you 25 ever see a cruiser, a police cruiser with a bullseye and


1 arrow applied to its door? 2 A: No, I did not. 3 Q: Did you see any cartoons of a 4 derogatory nature with respect to First Nations people -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- at the Pinery? 7 A: No, I did not. 8 Q: Or at the Forest Detachment? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Or any of these items at the Forest 11 Detachment? 12 A: No, not that I saw. 13 Q: All right. Did you -- did you work 14 with either of Officers Whitehead or Dyke? 15 A: No, I don't know them. 16 Q: Did you participate in any of the 17 investigation relating to either the mugs and T-shirts, 18 and other -- the beer can, bullseye and cartoons, or with 19 respect to Officers Whitehead and Dyke? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. And then that concludes 22 my examination in-Chief. And perhaps prior to breaking 23 for lunch we could canvass the parties with respect to 24 estimates for cross-examination, please. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. People


1 who wish to cross-examine please indicate? 2 Mr. Alexander, please? 3 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Yes, Mr. 4 Commissioner, I'll be switching with Ms. Esmonde for this 5 Witness, and I will reserve ten (10) to twenty (20) 6 minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) to 8 twenty (20) minutes. 9 And Ms. Esmonde...? 10 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Approximately thirty 11 (30) minutes. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thirty (30) minutes for 13 Ms. Esmonde. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 15 Scullion...? 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'll reserve thirty 17 (30) minutes as well. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thirty (30) minutes for 19 Mr. Scullion. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 21 Johnson...? 22 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Fifteen (15) 23 minutes, depending on what My Friends ask prior to me. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Fifteen (15) minutes 25 for Ms. Johnson.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 2 Mathai...? 3 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Ten (10) to fifteen 4 (15) minutes. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And ten (10) to fifteen 6 (15) minutes for Mr. Mathai. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 11 should break for lunch and start the cross-examination 12 right after. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 all very much. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This inquiry stands 17 adjourned until 1:10. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 12:10 p.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 1:11 a.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon Ms. 25 Esmonde.


1 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Good afternoon, Mr. 2 Commissioner. 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 5 Q: Good afternoon Constable York. 6 A: Good afternoon. 7 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde and I'll be 8 asking you some questions on behalf of the Aazhoodena and 9 George Family Group. 10 A: Certainly. 11 Q: Now, this morning you told us about 12 being positioned at Checkpoint 'D' for most of the day 13 and early evening on September 6? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you told us that there was 16 nothing really of consequence that you learned or 17 observed while you were at that checkpoint? 18 A: Well -- 19 Q: Apart from learning that there may 20 have been an incident at Checkpoint 'A'? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I take it there were -- did you 23 speak with any people who were coming in or out of the 24 army camp? 25 A: I'm sure I did. I don't recall


1 specifics. 2 Q: And I take it in -- in any 3 conversations that you may have had there was no one who 4 told you that women and children were being evacuated 5 from the army camp? 6 A: I don't recall that, no. 7 Q: And you didn't make note of any such 8 report -- 9 A: No, I did not. 10 Q: And can I take it then that you did 11 not report such to Constable Dew? 12 A: I did not. 13 Q: You told us that your understanding 14 of the mission for the Crowd Management Unit was that it 15 was to restore order in the sandy parking lot; is that 16 right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the way in which -- I take it the 19 concern, as you understood it, was that there may be 20 people in the sandy parking lot who had weapons of 21 various types? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Not firearms? 24 A: Not firearms. 25 Q: But you told us about reports of


1 pipes and bats and so on? 2 A: Yes, and that a car had been damaged. 3 Q: Right. With a rock? 4 A: I don't know that I knew that. 5 Q: Okay. You weren't aware of what had 6 caused the damage to the vehicle? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And it's fair to say then that your 9 understanding, as the Crowd Management Unit left the TOC 10 site, was that your role, as the CMU, was to go to the 11 sandy parking lot and arrest any persons there who had 12 weapons? 13 A: It wouldn't be my determination to 14 make the arrest. If the Incident Commander felt that it 15 was necessary for us to make an arrest, then he would 16 advise us to. 17 Q: But, is it not the case, your 18 understanding was that you had to restore order and the 19 way that you were going to do that was by arresting any 20 persons who had weapons in the sandy parking lot? 21 A: That was a possibility, should we go 22 down there and they voluntarily go back into the park, 23 then I don't see any need to. 24 Q: Right. If persons remained in the 25 sandy parking lot and they had weapons, you understood


1 that -- that someone in the Crowd Management Unit would 2 arrest those persons? 3 A: That was a possibility, yes. 4 Q: Okay. I'm going to ask you to turn 5 up the interview that you gave to the SIU and to the OPP, 6 which is at your Tab 12. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: If you could turn to page 57. This 9 has been marked as Exhibit P-1544. It's Inquiry Document 10 1000446 and this was given on September 8th, 1995? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So it's closer to the events than 13 today, obviously? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And your memory would obviously have 16 been fresher at that time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And if you look on page 57, there's - 19 - you're giving -- it starts off with you giving an 20 answer that began on the previous page, then Olson says: 21 "Okay." 22 And then the transcript has you saying: 23 "Basically, I assumed our purpose was 24 to go in there, to keep the -- the any 25 persons apart, and it was basically to


1 remove any persons from that -- that 2 area, arrest them for weapons 3 dangerous." 4 A: I said that, yes. 5 Q: Okay. And -- and you -- that's an 6 accurate transcription, as far as you can recall, of what 7 you said at that time? 8 A: I honestly can't recall what I said, 9 but I believe this is accurate. 10 Q: Okay. You have no reason to believe 11 that -- 12 A: No, I don't -- 13 Q: -- this is an accurate -- 14 A: No, I -- 15 Q: -- transcription -- 16 A: -- don't. 17 Q: -- of what you said? And would you 18 agree with me then that at the time, you assumed that the 19 purpose of going down there was to remove any persons 20 from that area and arrest them for weapons dangerous? 21 A: That's what I said, yes. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Actually, Mr. 23 Commissioner, what his answer is: 24 "I assumed our purpose was to go in 25 there and, ah, to keep, ah, any persons


1 apart." 2 And to make sense of that, of course, you 3 have to go back to the page before, where Officer York 4 talked about the information that they had about people 5 coming into the area and a concern about them -- there 6 being the potential of a confrontation between persons in 7 the Park and other persons. 8 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, I don't really 9 understand -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do -- 11 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- that objection, 12 to be honest -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 14 look at -- 15 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- I -- I read -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the 17 previous page. 18 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- the entire 19 passage and he agreed that that is what he said and that 20 was what he believes that this -- was his understanding 21 at the time, correct? 22 THE WITNESS: That's what I said. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 25 Q: And -- and your purpose was to keep


1 any persons apart, basically to remove any persons that - 2 - from that area and arrest them for weapons dangerous 3 and -- and obviously, can I take it your understanding 4 was that you would only arrest them for weapons dangerous 5 if they had dangerous weapons in their hands? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And if they did not have any 8 dangerous weapons in their hands in the sandy parking lot 9 and were not doing anything that posed a danger to the 10 public, was it your understanding that you would just 11 leave them alone? 12 A: I don't believe I was apprised of 13 what would happen if that was the case. That would be 14 determination that the incident commander would have to 15 make when we get there. 16 Q: So can I take from your answer then 17 that your understanding was the Crowd Management Unit 18 would march to the sandy parking lot, see what was 19 happening and then a decision would be made there? 20 A: I would think that's what would be 21 done, yes. 22 Q: Okay. And you didn't have any 23 further knowledge about what the plan was when you 24 marched down the road, apart from what you've told us 25 already?


1 A: I don't believe so. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: So you had no idea of what would 6 happen if you went there and the persons in the -- in the 7 sandy parking lot were doing nothing dangerous? 8 A: I would -- at that point, I'm 9 assuming that I would be instructed on what to do. 10 Q: But you had no idea of any plan in 11 advance? 12 A: No, I didn't. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And were you aware of any plan to set 17 up a checkpoint at that area? 18 A: No, I was not aware of that. 19 Q: Were you aware of any plan or any 20 steps that would be taken to prevent persons from re- 21 entering the sandy parking lot aft -- if you left? 22 A: No. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: We've heard from other witnesses that 2 the Crowd Management helmet that you wore muffled sounds. 3 Do you agree with that? 4 A: To some extent, yes. 5 Q: And would you agree that the helmet 6 that you wore -- sorry, the visor that covered your face, 7 it distorted your vision somewhat? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Maybe somewhat, but slightly. 12 Q: Slightly. Now, in -- in your notes 13 and in your testimony this morning you -- you used the 14 word "withdraw" several times and I wanted to clarify 15 what you would have meant by that. 16 Can I take it when you say "withdraw," 17 what you mean is that the Crowd Management Unit moved 18 back? 19 A: Backed up, yes. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And it was moving back to a 24 particular position that you were instructed to take? 25 A: I don't know that I was told to move


1 to a particular location. Generally, they say, Back, 2 back, back, back, until you get to a spot where they want 3 you to stop and then they'll just tell you to stop. 4 Q: Can I -- let's go through the 5 different positions that you went through, I believe this 6 morning. 7 So you arrived at the -- the Crowd 8 Management Unit arrived at the sandy parking lot, you 9 approached the fence within about 5 metres, you said? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then you withdrew at that point 12 to the road? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And when you say, withdrew -- 15 withdraw at that point, you were taking a position on the 16 road? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then there was the punchout? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then you again withdrew to take 21 up a position on the road? 22 A: Yes. I -- I think we were continuing 23 to back up when the school bus came out. I think we were 24 still in the process of backing up -- 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: -- when the school bus came out. 2 Q: But you weren't in the process of 3 going back to the TOC site at that point? 4 A: I don't know what the -- what we were 5 going to do. We were told to withdraw, to back up, back 6 up, back up. Once we got there we hadn't received any 7 more commands before the bus started coming at us. 8 Q: I see. Now when the bus came out, I 9 take it you watched its passage down the roadway very 10 closely, because you were concerned about it hitting you? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you kept your eyes on it until it 13 passed you? 14 A: I kept my eyes on the front grill of 15 the bus. I cannot tell you with any degree of certainty 16 exactly where it was, other than I believe it was in the 17 eastbound lane. My concentration was right on the front 18 of the bus. 19 Q: Right. And when it was reversing, 20 you said from your -- what you can recall it took the 21 same path on the way back? 22 A: I believe it did, yes. 23 Q: And you were watching it very closely 24 at that time as well. You were -- 25 A: No, I wasn't. I was trying to get


1 into the ditch so it didn't run me over. 2 Q: While -- while you were in the ditch 3 you were watching the passage of the bus -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- very closely -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- because you were concerned that it 8 was going to actually go into the ditch? 9 A: I thought I was going to be crushed, 10 yes. 11 Q: But it -- but it didn't go into the 12 ditch, right? 13 A: But it didn't. 14 Q: And at any time that you were 15 watching the bus you never saw it in the ditch? 16 A: No, I didn't. 17 Q: Now moving ahead to the car, you've 18 described to us when you -- when you fired a round at the 19 car, and you fired with one (1) hand, that's right? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: You fired one-handed. And did you 22 look through the sights of your -- 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: Okay. And you would agree with me 25 it's harder to aim and control where the -- the round


1 goes if you're firing with one (1) hand as opposed to two 2 (2)? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the car wasn't moving when you 5 fired? 6 A: It was -- it had just stopped and -- 7 and I believe it was placed into gear, and as the car 8 backed up and as somebody stopped, places it into gear 9 the -- the different momentum of the car, that's the 10 point I fired. 11 Q: Right. You believed it was going to 12 move forward momentarily, based on your observations? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: But at the time that you fired it 15 wasn't moving? 16 A: I would say it hadn't moved forward 17 yet. 18 Q: You've described two (2) different 19 occasions during which you heard gunshots? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: The first was right around the time 22 that you yourself were firing? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you believed at the time that the 25 shots you heard were rounds being fired at the car?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: By police officers? And the second 3 time you heard shots was after the bus had reversed past 4 you? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you actually saw Constable Sharp 7 firing? 8 A: I believe it was Constable Sharp, 9 yes. 10 Q: Well you know now it was Constable 11 Sharp, correct? 12 A: Yes, yes, I do. 13 Q: And you didn't hear any other shots? 14 A: No. 15 Q: So all the shots that you heard, you 16 attributed in your mind to police officers firing? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And the -- the threat that concerned 19 you the most that evening, after the punchout and when 20 you were on the roadway, were the two (2) vehicles that 21 you saw on the road? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You -- you saw those as the greatest 24 threat to police officers that evening? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Now, earlier when the Crowd 2 Management Unit was marching down the road and you 3 described learning of an individual further down the road 4 who had an object in his hands, and did you have the 5 understanding that he may have -- it was believed he may 6 have a firearm? 7 A: I think that may have been 8 transmitted on the radio. 9 Q: Okay. I take it you don't recall 10 today? 11 A: No, I don't. 12 Q: But when you got that report that 13 there was an individual ahead with an object in his 14 hands, you told us that the Crowd Management Unit split 15 and everyone took a knee? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And is it fair to say that was the 18 only time that you observed the entire Crowd Management 19 Unit duck for cover as a group? 20 A: No, I think when the bus tried to run 21 us down we did. 22 Q: Sorry, I should be clear. At no time 23 that evening did you see the Crowd Management Unit appear 24 to duck for cover to escape gunfire? 25 A: No, I didn't.


1 Q: Now, you told us about returning to a 2 hotel when you went off duty -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- on September 7th in the early 5 morning hours. And when you went to the hotel after your 6 shift you spent some time with some of the other ERT 7 members who were in the hotel? 8 A: We may have. I don't really have 9 much recollection of what we did. 10 Q: Well, can I take you to -- do you 11 have Tab 12 open still? 12 A: Yes -- 13 Q: This is the interview you gave to the 14 SIU and to the OPP, Exhibit P-1544. If you look at page 15 49. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You got the page? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And then where it says, 23 "York"? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: It said:


1 "We had to get directions and actually 2 we ended up -- we just followed another 3 cruiser back. We come back here and we 4 sat around. It was about, I don't 5 know, it must have been 2:00/2:30 by 6 the time I got to bed." 7 And then you go on about going to sleep? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Does that refresh your memory that 10 you say, "we sat around"? 11 A: If I said that two (2) days after the 12 incident, yes. 13 Q: And can you remember today, were you 14 sitting around in a hotel room with some of the other ERT 15 members? 16 A: No I can't remember sitting around 17 with them really. 18 Q: Now, as an experienced police officer 19 you know that it's important to segregate witnesses to an 20 incident? 21 A: Yes -- yes it is. 22 Q: So as to not contaminate evidence? 23 A: It's a possibility, yes. 24 Q: That's the concern -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- leading to the policy of 2 segregating witnesses, correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you use that practice yourself in 5 your own police work? 6 A: I try to, yes. 7 Q: And when you arrived back at the TOC 8 site, when the CMU marched back, were you instructed by 9 any of your superior officers that police officers 10 shouldn't talk to one another about what had occurred? 11 A: I don't recall being told that, no. 12 Q: Were you told to do your notes 13 separately? 14 A: I don't recall that. I did my notes 15 separately. 16 Q: You did your notes separately. And 17 when you went -- while you were in the hotel on September 18 7th and 8th, you were waiting to be interviewed, is that 19 right? 20 A: Yes by Norm Peel, yes -- or I'm sorry 21 by SIU. 22 Q: By the SIU? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you became aware at some point on 25 September 7th that a First Nations person had been shot


1 and killed the evening before? 2 A: At 4:15 in the morning when Inspector 3 Linton came to my door, is the first I found out that 4 somebody had been shot. 5 Q: And you were aware also that two (2) 6 other individuals had been injured? 7 A: I don't know that he told me that 8 then. 9 Q: Were you waiting to hear if you were 10 considered a subject officer in a SIU investigation? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Because you had fired a shot? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you didn't know if you were the 15 person who had fired the fatal shot; is that -- 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: -- right? Now, we understand from 18 the testimony of Mr. Lacroix that at -- that the 19 following persons were all at the same hotel, Ken Deane, 20 Mark Beauchesne, Bill Klym, Brian Sharp, yourself and Mr. 21 Lacroix. 22 And does that accord with your memory? Do 23 you remember -- 24 A: You mean saying -- staying at the 25 same hotel?


1 Q: Right. 2 A: I don't know if they were all staying 3 there. I know Brian Sharp was. 4 Q: Brian Sharp was staying at the same 5 hotel. And did you, at any time, spend time in Mr. 6 Lacroix's room? 7 A: I don't believe so. 8 Q: Did you meet with a peer counsellor? 9 A: I spoke to Ian McGregor, but where 10 that I was I don't recollect. 11 Q: Were other persons present? 12 A: I don't recall. 13 Q: We've heard from Mr. Lacroix that -- 14 and we've heard a recording of a telephone conversation 15 that he had with Staff Sergeant Brian Deevy around 18:45 16 hours on September 7th, 1995. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And we've heard from his testimony 19 that it would have taken place while he was in his hotel 20 room watching television with one (1) or more other 21 persons. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: And were you present while that phone 24 call was made? 25 A: No, I was not.


1 Q: Were you aware of any attempts by Mr. 2 Lacroix or others to find out the results of an -- the 3 autopsy? 4 A: The first I was aware of that was 5 when I was preparing for the Inquiry. 6 Q: And you would agree with me that it 7 would not be appropriate for yourself, as a potential 8 subject officer, to try to find out the results of the 9 autopsy prior to being interviewed by the SIU? 10 A: I agree. 11 Q: Now, after Ken Deane was convicted in 12 April 1997, you were interviewed by Ron Piers? 13 A: Yes, I was. 14 Q: And I've provided you, and Mr. 15 Commissioner, you should have on your table as well, an 16 excerpt from a statement of Ron Piers which has been 17 marked as P-144, Inquiry Document 2005302. 18 Can -- I provided you with a copy just 19 before we started, have you had a chance to review it? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And according to this, you 22 were interviewed by Ron Piers on August 5th, 1997. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And does that appear correct to you? 25 A: The date, I -- I can't confirm, but I


1 know I was interviewed by him. 2 Q: And you knew that Ron Piers was a 3 former Deputy Commissioner? 4 A: I don't know if I knew that. 5 Q: You knew he had been hired by Kenneth 6 Deane's defence team to assist in the appeal? 7 A: I believe I knew that, yes. 8 Q: And how did this interview come 9 about? 10 A: I don't recollect how I was requested 11 to meet with him. 12 Q: And would have had to have been 13 requested by one of your superior officers? 14 A: It's possible. I just -- I have no 15 recollection how I ended up meeting with him. 16 Q: Was this meeting done in the course 17 of your duties? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: And can you conclude from that that 20 one (1) of your superior officers must have been aware 21 that you were meeting with Ron Piers? 22 A: In -- my immediate supervisor would 23 have known that I was going to meet somebody, yes. 24 Q: The -- the summary of his interview 25 with you is quite brief. It says only:


1 "During confrontation he heard gunfire. 2 He subsequently fired his weapon." 3 A: Yes, that's what it says. 4 Q: And does that -- is that an accurate 5 summary of the information you provided to Ron Piers? 6 A: I don't recall what information I 7 provided to Ron Piers, no. 8 Q: There's no mention here at -- of the 9 -- you believing that the gunfire that you heard came 10 from police officers? Did you -- 11 A: No, it -- 12 Q: Did you tell Ron Piers that you 13 believed the gunfire you heard was from police officers? 14 A: I don't recall any -- any of my 15 conversation with Ron Piers. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: You told us that you bought a T- 20 shirt, the one with the feather on it? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: And can you -- were you shown two (2) 23 different designs and given a choice of which T-shirt you 24 wanted? 25 A: I don't believe so, no. I was only


1 shown the -- the one that I purchased. 2 Q: Okay, so you were shown that T-shirt 3 and then you purchased it. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And who showed it to you? 6 A: I have no idea who it was. 7 Q: Who did you purchase it from? 8 A: I don't know. It was eleven (11) 9 years ago. 10 Q: Can you tell us where you were when 11 you purchased it? 12 A: No, I can't. 13 Q: Were you at the Pinery Park? 14 A: I can't say for sure. 15 Q: Did you see these shirts or mug -- 16 this T-shirt or any other T-shirt or mug on display 17 anywhere, in a Detachment or at the Pinery Park? 18 A: No. I saw -- I saw no mugs and the 19 only T-shirt I saw was this one. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And I believe you testified this 24 morning that you did not participate in any investigation 25 into the creation of the T-shirts, mugs, et cetera?


1 A: No. 2 Q: And I take it then you weren't 3 interviewed as part of any -- you mean by that you 4 weren't interviewed? 5 A: No, I was not. I was not contacted. 6 Q: And was there any general callout 7 asking police officers who had purchased mugs, T-shirts 8 to come forward and turn them in? 9 A: Not -- I don't recall that. 10 Q: Did you see other officers wearing 11 that T-shirt or any other? 12 A: The one I purchased? 13 Q: Sorry, any others means any T-shirt. 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did you see any police officers 16 wearing that T-shirt, the one that you purchased? 17 A: I may have, but I can't say for sure. 18 Q: Did you wear the T-shirt? 19 A: I did wear the T-shirt. 20 Q: And where did you wear the T-shirt? 21 A: I don't know where I wore it, but I 22 know I did wear it. 23 Q: Did you wear it at OPP functions or 24 in the course of your duties? 25 A: No, I wouldn't wear it -- no, I


1 didn't wear it in the course of my duties. 2 Q: Or at OPP functions? 3 A: No, I wouldn't wear -- I wouldn't 4 wear a T-shirt. 5 Q: Okay. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And you said you disposed of yours? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you recall when that was? 12 A: It was shortly after the whole 13 Ipperwash incident. I didn't have it very long -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- and I disposed of it. 16 Q: Did you ever see Ken Deane with a T- 17 shirt like -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- that? And when were you first 20 asked about whether you had a T-shirt in your possession? 21 A: The first time I was asked if I had a 22 T-shirt in my possession? I believe my Counsel... 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Thank you very much, sir. Thank you, 25 Mr. Commissioner.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Ms. Esmonde. 3 Mr. Alexander...? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Good afternoon, Mr. 8 Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 afternoon. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 13 Q: Good afternoon, Constable York. 14 A: Good afternoon. 15 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 16 one (1) of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George 17 and several members of the George Family including Sam 18 George who unfortunately couldn't be here as he had to 19 leave early to attend to another commitment. 20 And I just have one (1) area I want to 21 explore with you a little bit. And just so you know the 22 time area where I'm looking at is basically around the 23 debriefing on the evening of September the 6th that 24 started at 19:40 hours. 25 A: Okay.


1 Q: Okay. Now, as I understand your 2 evidence in-chief you -- the debriefing started at around 3 19:40, correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You received information about a 6 damaged car at the corner of East Parkway and Army Camp 7 Road, correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then you would have received an 10 order to suit up in CMU hard TAC? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Then you would have received a 13 subsequent order for a first deployment to go to the TOC? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: But you don't recall who gave you 16 those orders, correct? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: But these orders were told to 19 everyone, correct? 20 A: I assume so, yes. 21 Q: Like they were told in the 22 debriefing, kind of thing? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And as a result of it you got into 25 your car, and some people had already left at that point


1 to go to the TOC and some were in the process of leaving, 2 correct? 3 A: Yes, I don't believe that myself and 4 Constable Wilson had left yet. 5 Q: But others had left? 6 A: I believe so, yes. 7 Q: And just so I know when you were in 8 the car were you already suited up in your CMU hard TAC 9 or did you have it with you in the car? 10 A: I don't recall whether -- I believe 11 we would have had our padding and stuff on. It's 12 doubtful we would have had helmets and a shield; they 13 would have been in the back seat or the trunk. 14 Q: But it would have been with you 15 though? 16 A: Oh, sure, yeah. 17 Q: And then while you're in the car, I 18 presume you're in the parking lot at the Forest 19 Detachment -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- you receive the orders to 10-19 22 and to stay in Forest, correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And 10-19 sounds like a radio 25 transmission, so am I correct in presuming that that was


1 a radio transmission order that you received? 2 A: Not necessarily. For -- an example, 3 when I leave here and I put a note in my notebook I may 4 say, 10-19 Brant County Detachment. It doesn't mean 5 somebody's radioed me to do that, it's just I'm returning 6 to Brant County Detachment. 7 Q: Okay. But you don't recall if that 8 was a radio transmission or if it was a verbal order and 9 you were in your car at that time? You don't recall? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: Okay. And you were in that car -- 12 you were in your car at that time, correct? 13 A: I don't know whether I was physically 14 in the car or not. No, I don't. 15 Q: The reason I ask that is in your 16 notes it says: 17 "But prior to leaving Forest Detachment 18 in our unit advised to 10-19." 19 So I'm just trying to understand if you 20 were in your car or if you were near your car in terms of 21 that timing? 22 A: I can't say now whether I was near 23 the car or not, or whether the 10-19 was a radio 24 transmission or -- that's just my way of saying return 25 to. Instead of writing, "return to,' I write "10-19".


1 Q: No, fair enough. And the other 2 reason why I'm asking this is we've heard evidence at the 3 Inquiry, and this is Exhibit P-1321 for My Friends' 4 reference, that Sergeant Korosec requested a 10-19 at 5 20:19 that evening for the 3 and 6 District ERT who had 6 left the Detachment. 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: So I'm trying to see if that 9 refreshes your memory as to whether or not that was a 10 radio transmission. 11 A: It doesn't. 12 Q: Does it refresh your memory at all 13 with respect to who may have given you that order? 14 A: It would be an assumption on my part. 15 Q: Okay. Does it refresh your memory at 16 all with respect to the time when that order was given? 17 A: I have no recollection of what time 18 it was. 19 Q: Okay. So you wouldn't take any issue 20 with the time of that radio transmission in terms of when 21 the order was given over the radio, at least? 22 A: I couldn't confirm or deny that time. 23 Q: Okay. Does it refresh your memory 24 about who may have given you the orders initially to suit 25 up in hard TAC, in CMU hard TAC, and to first deploy out


1 to the TOC? 2 A: I believe it was either Constable -- 3 or sorry, Sergeant Hebblethwaite or Sergeant Korosec, but 4 which one, I -- I'm not sure. 5 Q: But it would have been somebody 6 higher than you in the command -- in the command chain 7 and they're the next to you, up, kind of thing? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And both of these orders would have 10 occurred, obviously, before the order to return to 11 Forest, correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Thank you Constable York. I have no 14 further questions. 15 A: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 Mr. Alexander. 18 Mr. Scullion...? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 23 Q: Good afternoon Officer York. 24 A: Good afternoon. 25 Q: My name is Kevin Scullion and I'm one


1 of the counsel for the Residents of Aazhoodena, also 2 known as the Stoney Point Group. 3 I have a couple of areas I want to canvass 4 with you. One -- well, just to start. On September 5th, 5 I understand from your evidence that you're called out 6 early in the morning about 1:20, 1:30 a.m. -- 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: -- to come out to this assignment? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And did I hear you correctly that you 11 didn't finish that day on September 5th until 9:00 p.m.? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. So by my calculation that's 14 about a nineteen (19) hour shift? 15 A: Nineteen (19), twenty (20) hours, 16 yes. 17 Q: All right. A little unusual? 18 A: Not really for me, no. No. That's a 19 long shift. 20 Q: We'll agree it's a long shift. 21 A: It's a long shift. 22 Q: We won't get into your history of 23 shifts. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: The next day you're called out at


1 6:00 a.m.? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Is that right -- so by the time this 4 incident is occurring at 11:00 p.m., you've been on duty 5 for -- if my calculations are correct again, about 6 seventeen (17) hours? 7 A: Approximately, yes. 8 Q: Okay. Again, a pretty long shift? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Now, you testified that you 11 made your notes -- or you usually make notes as soon 12 practical? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. In your tabs, if you turn 15 to Tab 8, it's P-1543 for the record. I see at the 16 bottom a very brief note for Thursday, the 7th of 17 September. It says, you're not active as an ERT Member, 18 you remain at the hotel in the area, you meet with lawyer 19 Norm Peel, you see that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. That's accurate, you met with 22 Norm -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- Peel that day? And then if you 25 turn the page, again we have a very short note, almost


1 identical, and it says, again: 2 "Met with lawyer Norm Peel on the 8th?" 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: That's accurate? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And after those two (2) 7 meetings with your lawyer, you then subsequently meet 8 with the SIU? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that's the meeting that we've 11 heard evidence on and we have a transcript from, correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Did you make the written 14 notes -- or your written notes, before or after you met 15 with Norm Peel? 16 A: I don't know. I can't remember. I 17 know my notes were completed prior to meeting with SIU, 18 whether they were made and what time they were made on 19 the 7th or the 8th, I cannot recall and I have no note of 20 it. 21 Q: And you can't help us whether or not 22 it was before you met with Norm Peel the first time on 23 the 7th of September? 24 A: I can't. 25 Q: You were asked a couple of questions


1 by Ms. Esmonde about what you expected to happen when you 2 went down the East Parkway. And your counsel Ms. Jones 3 popped up and indicated something about an expectation of 4 others coming into the area. Do you remember that 5 exchange? It was about ten (10) minutes ago. 6 A: Yeah, I remember the exchange, yes. 7 Q: Okay. Was it -- and I'll just give 8 you a reference, if you turn to Tab 12, your interview. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: If you can go to page 57, there's a 11 1931 at the top of that page as well. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Do you have that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You indicate in your answer to one of 16 the questions posed to you, that it was your opinion 17 that: 18 "There was some kind of confrontation 19 brewing between, um, the persons at the 20 Park and other persons." 21 Do you see that note? 22 A: I see that. 23 Q: Do you recall or can you enlighten us 24 on what your expectation was as to who these people were 25 that were going to be in a confrontation with the people


1 in the Park? 2 A: No, just that a vehicle had been 3 damaged there and that's, I believe, what I'm referring 4 to here, is that con -- that confrontation. 5 Q: All right. I suggest -- 6 A: Other than that I don't know. 7 Q: -- to you it seems a little more 8 particular, but you can't help us in any way in 9 identifying who or what group you thought was going to be 10 in this confrontation? 11 A: No. I don't know that I knew what 12 groups or people or -- no, I don't, I can't. 13 Q: All right. You testified at times, 14 in your examination in-chief, about a -- a confrontation 15 with a very large individual. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You remember, in the parking lot, and 18 that you moved towards him as part of a punchout. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that at some point he moved back 21 to the fence line and picked up a post. 22 A: Yes. I don't know for sure it was 23 the same individual, but it was a large individual both 24 times. 25 Q: Okay. I'm not -- I'm not too


1 concerned about specifically who it was, but if you turn 2 to Tab 19 of your book, which has been marked as P-1548. 3 Do you have that before you? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: If you go to the third page, at the 6 top of that page, as part of your interview, you -- it 7 would appear that you're describing that event -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- to the interviewer. And your 10 wording in this was that: 11 "I followed him. When he got to the 12 fence he obtained a large post from a 13 sign or what appeared to be. He was 14 holding it against his stomach, holding 15 it sideways to prevent me from 16 approaching him further. I had no 17 other physical contact with him." 18 Do you see that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that was accurate at the time? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And now it still reflects 23 your version or vision of that event. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Did he collect that post


1 from inside the Park? 2 A: I don't recall where he got the post 3 from? 4 Q: Do you recall if he was inside the 5 Park when he was brandishing this post -- 6 A: I believe he was outside the -- 7 actually, I'll take that back. No, I don't know. 8 Q: All right. So -- 9 A: I can't recall. 10 Q: All right. So when you refer to it 11 as a standoff, it was simply the two (2) of you staring 12 back and forth at each other and nothing further coming 13 from it? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. At that point in time, do I 16 take it then you didn't say anything to him about staying 17 in the Park or you're safe in the Park, we're not coming 18 into the Park? 19 A: No, I did not say. 20 Q: Did you hear any other police officer 21 mention words to that effect to any of the occupiers 22 during this confrontation? 23 A: No, I did not. 24 Q: All right. Now, if I can turn your 25 attention to your evidence regarding this car that was


1 coming out of the parking lot -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- and I haven't referred you to a 4 tab yet. A: Yeah. 5 Q: Right. You've drawn on the map 6 behind you, various images of the bus and the car and the 7 directions that they're coming from. 8 Are you able to point with the laser 9 pointer the first area where you first saw the car coming 10 towards you in the street? 11 And you -- and you -- I'm advised you need 12 to use the hand mic if you're going to get up and move 13 closer to the map. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I believe the first place I saw the 18 car was approximately right here. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: And the school -- school bus would 21 have been down on the road somewhere. 22 Q: Okay. And to assist the record, 23 you're pointing with the laser pointer to the edge of the 24 pavement with the edge of the sandy parking lot? 25 A: Yes. My recollection, it was either


1 right at the edge of the road or just onto the road, in 2 that area right there. 3 Q: All right. And from that point 4 towards -- sorry. From that point, all the way up until 5 the point where it turns into the police officers on the 6 side of the road -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You had a clear view of this car? 9 A: No, I wouldn't say so. The -- when 10 the bus -- when the bus went by and the vehicle came out 11 -- no, actually I would. I'd say I would. Yes. 12 Q: In fact you thought it was a danger 13 and you kept your eye on that car -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- coming towards you? Right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: As it came towards you at some point 18 before it gets to you it veers to the right, correct? 19 A: Yes, it did. 20 Q: Okay. And I appreciate it's been 21 eleven (11) years but there's -- you've testified at one 22 (1) point that the car comes within about 20 feet of you 23 before it turns, is that fair? 24 A: I don't recall but... 25 Q: Is that a fair approximation? You


1 and I are -- 2 A: Yeah, I think so, yes. 3 Q: -- we're about 10 -- 15 feet apart? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. So within about 20 feet 6 of you, you're standing right in the middle of the road 7 and the car veers to the right, correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the car's front end, we've heard 10 other evidence from Sergeant -- Staff Sergeant Lacroix -- 11 that the front end of the car dove at some point 12 indicating to him at least that the brakes were pushed by 13 the driver. 14 Is that consistent with what you saw? 15 A: I can't say I saw the car dive. I 16 saw the officers going -- being struck. I wasn't really 17 watching the car -- 18 Q: Okay. So you didn't see the -- 19 A: -- dive. 20 Q: -- movement of the car, you can't say 21 yes or no whether the front end went down at all? 22 A: Not at the time that it struck the 23 officers, no. 24 Q: Okay. Did you have your gun drawn on 25 that car as it came towards you on the road?


1 A: No, I don't believe so. 2 Q: All right. But it's possible that 3 you did? 4 A: I believe I drew my gun. My 5 recollection now is that I drew my gun when the officers 6 were struck. 7 Q: Okay. I'm going to suggest to you 8 that with a car coming down on you and you're standing in 9 the middle of the road your first reaction is going to be 10 to pull your gun to get it to stop? 11 A: No, I don't -- I don't believe so. 12 Just like the school bus, I didn't pull my gun out when 13 the school bus was coming at me. I felt it was more 14 important for me to seek cover of some type. 15 Q: But as opposed to the school bus the 16 car was coming directly at you, correct? 17 A: The school bus was, yes. 18 Q: Sorry, the school bus was, you moved 19 out of the way, -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- then you were in the way of the 22 car? 23 A: Yes, the car's coming at me. 24 Q: All right. So both were coming 25 directly at you?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And your testimony then to the best 3 of your recollection is you didn't pull your gun on 4 either one (1) of them? 5 A: Until after they struck the officers 6 is what I recall today. 7 Q: Okay. And I understand that the 8 reason why you pulled your gun on the driver was it was 9 your belief that in fact he was taking another run at -- 10 A: That he reversed -- 11 Q: -- the officers? 12 A: Yes, that he reversed -- he stopped 13 and I believe that he was coming forward to run over the 14 officers that were on the ground getting up. 15 Q: Right. And you'd agree with me that 16 you had options at that point once you pulled your gun to 17 shoot either at the driver or at the tires of the car, 18 correct? 19 A: Shooting at the tires of the car 20 would not stop the vehicle. 21 Q: It was an option available to you, 22 correct? 23 A: It was but it wouldn't stop the 24 vehicle. 25 Q: I appreciate that but that was an


1 option that was available to you? 2 A: Sure. 3 Q: Okay. And you chose to shoot at the 4 driver's window. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: What was your intention when you shot 7 at the driver's window? 8 A: My -- my intention was to stop the 9 vehicle and the only way to stop the vehicle from driving 10 forward 20 feet and potentially killing officers was to 11 shoot the driver. 12 Q: Right. That was your intention when 13 you pulled your gun and shot at the centre of the window 14 on the driver's side? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. Now, we've heard that there's 17 a number of officers all around the is area, correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that's your recollection that 20 there's officers to the left of the vehicle that have 21 just been hit by it, correct? 22 A: I think they were more towards the 23 front -- front of the vehicle, not really off to the left 24 of the vehicle. 25 Q: They're not in front of you, correct?


1 A: No, they -- sorry, they're to the 2 left of me, yes. 3 Q: To the left of you? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I suggest to the left of the 6 vehicle because you're shooting at the vehicle as well? 7 A: I would think it would be to the 8 right of the vehicle but -- 9 Q: We can argue left, right -- 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: -- semantics -- 12 A: Sure. 13 Q: -- but to your left? 14 A: Sure. 15 Q: All right. There's officers to the 16 right as well because they jumped into the ditch 17 previously? You were aware that there were officers to 18 the right of you? 19 A: I believe there were, yes. 20 Q: All right. I suggest to you that it 21 was a pretty dangerous manoeuvre for you to pull your gun 22 and shoot at the driver of the vehicle through the 23 windshield. 24 Would you agree with that? 25 A: It was a dangerous situation. I -- if


1 something -- 2 Q: That's my only -- 3 A: -- if something... 4 Q: He agreed that it's a dangerous -- 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 6 sorry, this Witness has been asked a question and he's 7 answering the question and he ought to have an 8 opportunity to finish his answer and not be interrupted. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 12 Q: My followup question is: But you did 13 it anyways; why? 14 A: The reason I did it was because I 15 believed that the vehicle was going to come forward, it 16 was going to run over the officers that were on the 17 ground, and I believed that those officers would have 18 been seriously injured or killed. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: And something had to be done. 21 Q: I appreciate that. It was a 22 dangerous situation, but you felt it was necessary for 23 you to do what you did. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Can you tell us where


1 Staff Sergeant Lacroix or Sergeant Hebblethwaite, Officer 2 Beauchesne or Jacklin or Bittner were when you fired your 3 -- your gun? 4 A: No. All I can say is that when I 5 discharged my weapon, there was nobody right at the 6 vehicle. 7 Q: There's nobody in the way of your 8 weapon, correct? 9 A: Exactly. 10 Q: Okay. But you can't tell us where 11 anybody else is at that particular time? 12 A: I have no idea where everybody is. 13 Q: Is it fair to say, because you're 14 focussed on the car at that moment in time? 15 A: I was focussed on the car. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Now, lastly, you testified in-chief 21 that you didn't turn over your firearm when you went back 22 to the TOC because, if I understood you correctly, you 23 still thought you were on duty; is that correct? 24 A: Well, number 1, I wasn't asked and 25 number 2, it's maybe an assumption on my part, but that


1 may be the reason they didn't ask me to turn it over. 2 Nobody asked me to turn it over. 3 Q: All right. The fact is, you were off 4 duty, you were taken off duty at the TOC, correct? 5 A: I was off -- no, I would say I'm off 6 duty when I get back to the hotel. 7 Q: Okay. So you didn't turn it over 8 because you weren't asked, correct? 9 A: I wasn't asked, plus I was, as far as 10 I was concerned, I was still on duty. 11 Q: Okay. At Tab 13, and it's Inquiry 12 Document 1000352, one (1) page. Do you have before you? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. It's a taped interview of 15 Inspector Dale Linton. At the bottom, there's reference 16 to you: 17 "Constable York, advising me that he'd 18 replaced one (1) round in the clip 19 prior to my receiving it. He ejected 20 one (1) round from the chamber in my 21 presence and that round was seized [as 22 was the gun, by Inspector Linton.]" 23 A: That is correct. I -- 24 Q: Does that -- 25 A: -- did replace a round in a clip.


1 Q: Okay. That's consistent with what 2 occurred? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And your recollection of what was -- 5 what occurred? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Why did you replace a clip in a gun 8 that you've used less than a few hours earlier? 9 A: The only thing I can say, maybe is 10 force of habit. We're taught to always top your mags up. 11 I don't know. I did it. I don't know -- I don't know 12 that it was appropriate, but I did do it and I advised 13 the Inspector when he came to my room to seize the gun of 14 what I had done. 15 Q: All right. Is -- is that -- when you 16 say, I don't know if it was appropriate, is it contrary 17 to your training to touch a gun that you'd discharged in 18 the course of your duties before it's seized by a 19 superior officer? 20 A: I don't know whether I've ever 21 received any training in that; I've never had that occur. 22 Q: You -- 23 A: In eighteen (18) years -- 24 Q: You've -- 25 A: Other than this incident.


1 Q: Other than this incident, you've 2 never discharged your gun, correct? 3 A: Other than target practising and 4 destroying an animal, that's correct. 5 Q: Right. In the course of your duties, 6 you haven't -- 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: -- discharged the gun? So you had no 9 previous situation to fall back on and in this particular 10 situation you thought it was something to do, but looking 11 back on it, it may have been inappropriate? 12 A: It -- eleven (11) years later I 13 probably -- I wouldn't do it today. 14 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner, 15 those are my questions. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 17 Mr. Scullion. 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 20 Johnson...? 21 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: We have no 22 questions. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 24 Mathai...? 25 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: No questions.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No 2 questions. Ms. Jones, I -- 3 MS. KAREN JONES: No questions. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No 5 questions? It couldn't be before -- 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Wait a minute, wait a 7 minute. I have some questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This can't 9 be before it's -- just before a long weekend, can it? 10 Yes, Ms. Vella...? 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I have no questions. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have no 13 questions, either? 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: But I would like to 15 thank the Constable for coming today and providing his 16 evidence to -- 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- this Inquiry. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much, Constable. 21 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 22 23 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is


1 unusual. It's two o'clock, we don't have another 2 witness. So we will adjourn now until Tuesday morning at 3 10:00, right? 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's right. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 9 adjourned until Tuesday, May 23rd at 10:00 a.m. 10 11 --- Upon adjourning at 2:00 p.m. 12 13 14 Certified Correct 15 16 17 18 19 ___________________________ 20 Carol Geehan 21 22 23 24 25