11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 18th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 8 9 Ian Smith ) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) 19 Erin Tully ) (np) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) (np) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25
51 2 TABLE OF CONTENTS 3 Page 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 269 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-430 Press release dated September 5, 4 1995, at 2:00 a.m. 13 5 P-431 Press release dated September 6 5/'95 at 17:25 hours. 14 7 P-432 CD ROM of photos 0138, 0140, 0146, 8 0148,0149, 0150, 0151, 0159 and 9 images 24 and 35. 42 10 P-433 Document number 1009044. OPP press 11 release Sept 06/'95. 61 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning. 11 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 13 Commissioner. Good morning, Deputy Carson. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 morning, everybody. 16 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin, I 18 thought we would, perhaps, do some housekeeping -- deal 19 with some housekeeping issues. I will, I anticipate, be 20 the balance of the week with Deputy Carson and -- today 21 and tomorrow. Then, we will sit the week of May 30th; 22 we've got May 30th, May 31st and June 1st and 2nd, which 23 we will do Deputy Carson's cross-examination. 24 Mr. Sandler, and he told us about this a 25 long time ago, has to be in Federal Court on June 6th,
81 7th, 8th and 9th and a long time ago he had asked us to 2 avoid scheduling the senior police officers on those four 3 (4) days. Initially I thought that it, perhaps, would 4 not be a problem; it is going to be a problem given the - 5 - the way the schedule -- how we proceeded. 6 And so I wanted to alert everyone we will 7 try to call, during the week of June the 6th, members of 8 the Interministerial -- people who attended the 9 Interministerial Committee Meeting and we haven't 10 identified exactly who is going to be there during those 11 four (4) days. 12 We had hoped to start with Ms. Julie Jai, 13 but she's not available as I understand it the first two 14 (2) days. So, I'll alert everybody as soon as I can 15 about who's going to be on the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th. 16 If we don't finish Deputy Carson on the 17 week of May 30th then he will proceed again on the week 18 of June the 20th. So, I just wanted to alert everyone to 19 that. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Now yesterday we were talking about-- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a
91 minute, Mr. Millar, we have Mr. Falconer. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Good morning, Mr. 3 Commissioner. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. Good 8 morning, Mr. Commissioner. 9 Mr. Commissioner, I -- I just -- I heard 10 what Mr. Millar said and I appreciated the information in 11 terms of Mr. Millar's point of view. If -- not if, when 12 we are in the middle of cross-examination the week of May 13 30th, it's my anticipation frankly from certainly 14 speaking to my colleagues that we will not by a long shot 15 have finished with Deputy Carson which would mean his 16 cross-examination would be interrupted. We would start 17 another witness. 18 The difficulty is that other witness would 19 unlikely to be finished that following week which would 20 have us two (2) witnesses in the air. And with great 21 respect, I'm not saying we can solve all this now, but 22 certainly from my perspective that's a problem. 23 I understand Mr. Sandler's difficulties 24 scheduling and I completely respect it having many of the 25 same difficulties. I'm simply suggesting perhaps the --
101 the worst case scenario might be to consider not sitting 2 to avoid having two (2) witnesses in the air and having 3 cross-examinations seriously affected. 4 So, anyway, I raise this because what I 5 don't expect to have happen after this lengthy 6 examination-in-chief the cross-examination goes very 7 quickly; I would be surprised with great respect. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 9 Mr. Falconer. I appreciate your alerting us to that and 10 we'll be alive to it. Thank you. Thank you kindly. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I expect that we 12 will call witnesses that will -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Be able to 14 complete. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- be able to 16 complete. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But the best 18 laid plans are often -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, the best laid 20 plans are often gone astray and we don't want the issue. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We have one (1) 23 witness in that -- up in the air right now partly because 24 of his schedule and partly because of Mr. Roland's 25 schedule. So we don't want to have --
111 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: More than we 2 need. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- more than we need. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 Thank you. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Now the -- if we could go to Exhibit 9 426, P-426, we were at page 40 yesterday dealing with the 10 briefing at 16:45. And the -- this is a briefing for 11 your management team at 16:45 -- was -- do you recall if 12 Dale Linton attended this meeting? 13 I note there's a reference to him at page 14 42. I mean -- excuse me, at page 41, 1702 hours, 15 Inspector Linton briefed by Inspector Carson. 16 A: I believe he's just coming in -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- at approximately 17:00 or 5:00 19 p.m. So he -- he may not have been there in the earlier 20 discussions at 16:45. 21 Q: And there's a reference to, Detective 22 Sergeant Wright advised that members have been briefed. 23 Also a press release has been set out also Mark Wright 24 talked to Inspector Robinson and Inspector Robinson was 25 the officer tasked with getting you a helicopter?
121 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And as we're speaking about press 3 releases, I wonder if -- in front of you there's a red 4 folder and I gathered together some of the press 5 releases. 6 And the -- if we could take a look at the 7 first two (2) press releases, Deputy Carson, the first 8 one is dated September 5th, 1995, at 2:00 a.m. and it's 9 Inquiry Document 1009040? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And, is this the first press release 12 that was issued by the Ontario Provincial Police or does 13 it appear to be the first press release? 14 There was a reference in the logger tape - 15 - the scribe notes to a press that we looked at -- talked 16 about earlier in the morning of September 5th and I 17 believe this is -- must be the press release that went 18 out around that time? 19 A: I would agree, yes. 20 Q: Perhaps we could mark this press 21 release dated September 5, 1995, at 2:00 a.m. as the next 22 exhibit? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-430, Your Honour. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-430. 25
131 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-430: Press release dated September 2 5, 1995, at 2:00 a.m. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: Then, the next press release, which 6 is 109039 is -- has a date on the top of September 5th, 7 1995, 1009039. 8 And there's a fax cover sheet or a fax 9 indicator on it that it was sent September 5/'95 at 17:25 10 hours, which would be 5:25? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And, this would appear to be the 13 press release that's being referred to by Detective 14 Sergeant Mark Wright at this meeting? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And, this is simply an update as to 17 what is happening with respect to the occupation? 18 A: That's correct and it's identifying 19 the charge -- charge subjects as a result of the incident 20 in the Park the evening earlier. 21 Q: And, the press release indicates that 22 checkpoints at -- third paragraph: 23 "Checkpoints have been set up at the 24 junction of Highway 21 and Army Camp 25 Road, Ravenswood and Middle Road and
141 Parkway Drive. Only local residents 2 are permitted into the area at present. 3 The situation is contained and there's 4 no danger to the public." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And, at that point in time, at 5:25 7 on September 5th, is this accurate when it says only 8 local residents were permitted into the area? 9 A: Probably. For the most part, yes. 10 Q: But others -- others were permitted 11 in if they... 12 A: They had a reasonable reason for 13 being there. 14 Q: Yeah. And, perhaps we could mark 15 this the next exhibit as Exhibit P-431. 16 THE REGISTRAR: 431. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-431: Press release dated September 19 5/'95 at 17:25 hours. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Then, we'll come back to the other 23 ones later, they're dated September 6th, Deputy Carson. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: Then, I note at the bottom of the
151 page, there's a note: 2 "Inspector Carson updated Chief Coles 3 that Marcel Beaubien has contacted the 4 Premier. There is to be a press release 5 by the Solicitor General stating that 6 this is not an Indian issue; it is an 7 MNR and a provincial issue. The John 8 Carson advised that the next meeting to 9 be held at 8:15 hours before new crowd 10 comes in." 11 Now, do you recall the telephone 12 discussion with Chief Coles -- I take it it was a 13 telephone discussion, was he there the afternoon of 14 September 5th? 15 A: No, no. He wasn't there in the 16 afternoon. It would have required to be a telephone 17 call. 18 Q: And, we don't have a note -- a 19 transcript of that call and do you know where you made 20 that call from? 21 A: No, sir, I'm not -- I'm not sure. 22 Q: And, do you recall anything today 23 about the call? 24 A: Only the fact from the notes I -- I 25 did brief him. I don't have any independent recollection
161 of the discussion. 2 Q: Okay. Then there's a note at the pa 3 -- top of page 41: 4 "Inspector Linton relieving Inspector 5 Carson. Inspector Carson wants every - 6 - to ensure that everyone is taking 7 over for them for the night is aware of 8 their responsibilities for the evening. 9 Be back for 7:00 hours tomorrow 10 morning." 11 And where it says every, I believe it 12 should read everyone to ensure. And you're simply asking 13 your -- telling your people the management, that 14 Inspector Linton will be taking over for the night and he 15 wants to make -- you wanted to make sure that everyone 16 briefed their replacement as to what was expected of 17 them. 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And then at 17:02 there's a note: 20 "Inspector Linton briefed by Inspector 21 Carson." 22 And what -- do you recall anything of that 23 briefing? 24 A: Not from a personal recollection, no. 25 Q: And at 17:08 there's a note:
171 "Inspector Linton advised Inspector 2 Carson that he had talked to Tom 3 Bressette earlier in the day and that 4 he has a concern about the cottages at 5 the end of Outer Drive. 6 Also that he feels that Pinery Park may 7 be next." 8 Do you recall anything about this 9 discussion with Inspector Linton, Inspect -- Deputy 10 Carson? 11 A: I don't -- I don't have a 12 recollection of the discussion but I -- I know that there 13 was concern about the potential issue around the cottages 14 at the end of Parkway Drive that we were aware of. 15 Q: And this refers to the cottages at 16 the end of Outer Drive? 17 A: Yes. And there was concern also 18 raised, I believe, by Mayor Thomas about patrols of Outer 19 Drive as well and the residents in that general area. 20 Q: And can you recall today the 21 reference -- perhaps we could go to for a moment to 22 Exhibit P-427, the handwritten notes? 23 The handwritten notes say at page 446: 24 "Inspector Linton talked to Tom 25 Bressette. Has a concern about cottages
181 at end of Outer Drive. Feel Pinery 2 Park is next." 3 Whose concern -- I'm trying to identify 4 who was concerned about the cottages at the end of Outer 5 Drive and with respect to Pinery Park; do you recall? 6 Was it Inspector Linton or Chief 7 Bressette? 8 A: Well my sense of it was there was 9 concern as a result of the information he received from 10 Chief Bressette. 11 Q: Okay. The concern by Lin -- 12 Inspector Linton? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Okay. Then there's a note that at 15 1727 hours Les Kobayashi and -- and Vervoort are reported 16 that Peter Sturdy is working on a twenty-four (24) hour 17 affidavit. Needs to know who is in the Park. 18 Kobayashi gave him the names that he is 19 aware of and you instructed Mark Wright to give the names 20 of the people at the Park to Kobayashi; is that correct? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And at this point in time, at 5:25, I 23 take it from the next note that the helicopter is still 24 not up in the air? 25 A: I believe that's accurate, yes.
191 Q: And then at -- the next note says 2 16:07, it should be 18:07 hours? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And that's reflected for My Friends 5 in the handwritten notes. The -- and at 16:07 in the 6 second paragraph there's a note, the first paragraph: 7 "Inspector Carson stated that Constable 8 Evans and Detective Constable Speck 9 have gone up in the helicopter. 10 Detective Sergeant Wright states, 11 helicopter is up in the air with 12 Detective Constable Speck. And 13 Constable Evans also states that 14 Inspector Robertson is getting the ERT 15 members Nomex underwear. He also has a 16 list of Indian speaking OPP officers if 17 they are required." 18 And so it's at this point in time at six 19 o'clock on September 5th, approximately, that the 20 helicopter arrives and is up in the air over the Park? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Then, on page 42, there's a note: 23 "Sergeant Seltzer advised that there 24 will be no negotiators overnight. 25 Constable Dowell can be here in two (2)
201 hours if he's required. Sergeant Eve 2 will be here at 08:00 hours, 06 3 Sept/'95. 4 Constable Vince George has been 5 contacted, he is going to think about 6 our request. Make it clear to him that 7 he is not being pressured to be a 8 negotiator. Going to switch shift. 9 Will be coming in in the morning." 10 And, the -- with respect to the 11 negotiations, the request, as we've seen, to Constable 12 Vince George was to act as -- to introduce the 13 negotiators, as I recall? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Now, what about the -- at this point 16 in time, asking Chief Bressette if he or anyone on the 17 Council could assist with respect to starting 18 negotiations? 19 A: It was very clear to me in 20 discussions with Chief Bressette and as a result of the 21 information that other people who had discussions with 22 him that there -- there was certainly not a very 23 harmonious relationship, I guess, with the occupiers and 24 the Kettle Point Band; some of that had -- had been well 25 articulated in media coverage; some of the statements
211 made by the Band Council in relation to the activities at 2 the Military Base. And that didn't seem to be a viable 3 option that would work. 4 It appeared that even earlier in the 5 month, the Grand Chief had been in the area in August and 6 there -- 7 Q: That's Mr. -- Chief Ovide Mercredi? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And that, despite his status 11 nationwide and his influence, there didn't appear to be 12 any appetite for a discussion with the occupiers. I got 13 -- I certainly had the impression that Mr. Mercredi and 14 Chief Bressette would not be welcome at -- at the Park or 15 at Camp Ipperwash, particularly. 16 Q: And, what about on the evening of 17 September 5, Miles Bressette and engaging the police 18 officers from Kettle and Stony Point? 19 A: Well, from the ongoing issues we had 20 there, Miles Bressette certainly made it clear that he 21 didn't want his officers working off of Kettle Point and 22 that precluded my ability to request them to go the 23 Military Base or the Park and I didn't -- I didn't feel 24 given Miles' ongoing position around that issue and his 25 relationship with our officers, generally, that he would
221 be supportive or assist us in any way, particularly in 2 this type of incident. 3 Q: And, so that's why you didn't ask? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And, you didn't ask him on September 6 6th? 7 A: No, I didn't. 8 Q: And, what about the first -- in 19 -- 9 September 5th, 1995, there was a First Nations policing 10 branch at the Ontario Provincial Police? 11 A: Yes, there was. 12 Q: And, did you consider asking the 13 First Nations policing branch for assistance with respect 14 to negotiations? 15 A: No, I didn't -- I didn't make any 16 request there. I didn't, quite frankly, I didn't have 17 any knowledge of anybody at the First Nations branch that 18 would have such a relationship that they would be -- 19 would know the individuals involved or be able to 20 establish dialogue with the occupiers or that the 21 occupiers, in fact, would -- would know who they were. 22 Q: And, from what we've seen with 23 Constable Vince George and Lorne Smith, you were 24 attempting to engage people who knew the community and 25 knew the occupiers?
231 A: Correct. Whether it's Vince George, 2 George Speck, and there -- there are many others at 3 Forest. There was certainly a local knowledge and 4 relationships that had been established and I felt they 5 had a reasonable chance, if anybody did, of establishing 6 some dialogue and would not been seen as threatening, as 7 -- as police officers. 8 Q: And on the -- at six o'clock on 9 September the 6th, had you or any -- did -- were you 10 aware of any offers of assistance by -- on September 5th 11 from the assembly of First Nations? 12 A: No office -- no offers had been 13 brought to my attention. 14 Q: And the Chiefs of Ontario? 15 A: Nothing at all. 16 Q: And the Union of Ontario Indians? 17 A: None. 18 Q: And on September 6th, with respect to 19 -- prior to call from Chief Mercredi at approximately 20 11:30 on September 6th, had -- did you receive any offers 21 of assistance from anyone at the assembly of First 22 Nations? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: And did you call the Assembly of 25 First Nations yourself?
241 A: No, I didn't. 2 A: What about the Chiefs of Ontario? 3 A: There was no dialogue there, either. 4 Q: And the Union of Ontario Indians? 5 A: No, sir. Now, the only call I did 6 get, I did get one (1) call from well, the call didn't 7 get through. There was -- there was an offer made by an 8 individual, I believe the name was Cindy Elder from, I 9 believe, it's the Manitoulin area. 10 But at the particular time the call came 11 in, I was extremely busy, not able to take the phone 12 call. And I had indicated I would call that person back 13 but I didn't really have an opportunity to make that 14 connection and -- but a call did come in with an offer. 15 Q: Okay. We'll come to that, that's the 16 one (1) call you received. It was from Cindy Elder? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Now, the -- the note indicates as 19 well farther down, that: 20 "Sergeant Korosec was providing five 21 (5) sets -- had obtained five (5) sets 22 of night visions glasses and they're 23 arranging Outer Drive patrol. They're 24 being well received." 25 Do you have any recollection of what that
251 refers to, "they're being well received"? 2 A: I'm going to make the assumption that 3 the discussion is there are patrols occurring on Outer 4 Drive and feedback from the public is the -- are 5 appreciating the visibility. 6 Q: Okay. And then there's a note: 7 "Inspector Carson wants people with 8 night vision glasses to be out and 9 around Outer Drive to get a sense of 10 what's going on in that area. 11 Detective Sergeant Wright suggests that 12 eight (8) officers be put at Highway 21 13 as a fear First Nations may be bolder 14 tonight. 15 Inspector Carson stated that if the 16 First Nations get lippy, don't take too 17 much. If they become pushy, arrest 18 them and get them out of there." 19 And what's that refer to? 20 Q: Well that refers to, technically, the 21 behaviour that was experienced on the evening of the 4th, 22 that if they get into a confrontation, don't -- don't be 23 wasting a lot of time. 24 Simply, if there is a criminal offence, 25 make the arrest and -- and move the person out of there
261 quickly. 2 Q: And were you referring to outside the 3 Army Camp and the Park or inside the Army Camp and the 4 Park? 5 A: No, this is -- this is definitely 6 outside. 7 Q: Okay. And then there's a note at the 8 bottom -- 9 A: If I could just speak just for a 10 moment, just back to the issue of the night vision and 11 what's going on in the area. 12 I wanted to get some sense, with the 13 assistance of night vision equipment, if there -- there 14 had been a concern raised by Mayor Thomas and the concern 15 for patrols in Outer Drive and then obviously the 16 information that had come in from -- through Chief 17 Bressette about Outer Drive residents, using the night 18 vision equipment to give us some sense as to if there was 19 activity going on at night, that the residents had reason 20 to be concerned or not. And so we were trying to be a 21 little proactive here, to try to determine exactly what 22 was going on over there. 23 Q: And do you recall today what was 24 being looked at -- the border -- the border, the 25 northeast border of the Army Camp runs on the west side
271 and on the south side of those cottages? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And do you -- were the police 4 officers patrolling that border to the extent that they 5 could to see what was happening? 6 A: Yes. They were patrolling through 7 that area and I don't believe there was any activity of 8 any significant concern that was raised. 9 Q: And were they also patrolling on the 10 beach with the night vision glasses in that part? 11 A: I'm not sure. I would have to check 12 individual officers activities to see if they were 13 actually, like, say on foot on the beach. But I don't 14 believe they were on the beach on that side to the base. 15 Q: And in any event you don't recall 16 today receiving any indication that there was any 17 activity on the Outer Drive side of the Army Camp? 18 A: No, sir. 19 Q: Now, Detective -- I mean, Deputy 20 Carson, if there's as we go through these notes which in 21 affect are your notes, if you want -- if there's 22 something that I don't ask you about that you want to 23 tell us about, please do that because I'm not going 24 through every entry. I'm trying to highlight some of the 25 entries so.
281 A: Thank you. 2 Q: Then at the bottom, there's a note: 3 "Sergeant -- Staff Sergeant Dennis 4 advised Sergeant Skinner on the flow of 5 paperwork for his TRU team members. 6 Sergeant Skinner states that he has ten 7 (10) guys stating at the Pinery with 8 ERT team members. 9 Inspector Carson asked Sergeant Skinner 10 if he brought the video printer. He 11 stated he did not. Inspector Carson 12 requested that someone go get it 13 tonight and bring it to the office." 14 Apparently I said TRU team members. I 15 said ERT but -- perhaps I'll start again. 16 "Staff Sergeant Dennis advised Sergeant 17 Skinner on the flow of paperwork for 18 his TRU team members." 19 That's simply what had to do with respect 20 to -- 21 A: Just administrative. 22 Q: -- meaning the administrative 23 requirements. They are always with us. Then: 24 "Sergeant Skinner states that he has 25 ten (10) guys staying at Pinery with
291 the ERT -- with ERT team members." 2 And so there were ERT team people at the 3 Pinery, that's where they -- some of them were staying; 4 is that not correct? 5 A: Some of them. 6 Q: Yes. And the ten (10) TRU team 7 members were staying at the Pinery as well. 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: You wanted the video printer and I 10 think you explained to us earlier, the video printer 11 permitted a still to be printed off a video taken by a 12 video camera? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And that's why you wanted that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you had asked -- you asked 17 someone to get it tonight? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Then if I could take you to page 450 20 of Exhibit 427, there's a note you -- there's a note that 21 says: 22 "Sergeant Skinner is to attend command 23 post meetings." 24 And you wanted Sergeant Skinner to be part 25 of the command team as it's noted in the handwritten
301 notes? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And then it's attributed to you: 4 "Heat from political side. Made strong 5 comments in the House [and then] court 6 injunction moving along." 7 And the scribe notes include: 8 "Advise members that court injunction 9 is moving along." 10 The scribe notes as typed do not include: 11 "Heat from political side. Made strong 12 comments in the House." 13 And do you recall today what you're 14 referring to when you made those -- I take it that this 15 accurately reports these comments as having come from you 16 on the evening of September 5th? 17 A: Yes. They are attributed to myself. 18 Q: And do you recall today, what you 19 were referring to, "Heat from political side. Made 20 strong comments in the House"? 21 A: I don't recall the -- that particular 22 terminology. However, I -- I suspect I'm reflecting on 23 the discussion Inspector Fox and I had in regards to the 24 Blockade Committee and the -- the issues around whether - 25 - the -- the different types of injunctions and -- and
311 all those discussions and his general comments generally. 2 Q: And, what about your discussion with 3 Mr. Beaubien -- I mean, Mr. Lacroix about Mr. Beaubien? 4 A: Well, there would be those comments. 5 Obviously, the -- the information that's being passed 6 along through Staff Sergeant Lacroix. 7 There's also the comments from Mayor 8 Thomas, Ken Williams. I mean there's -- there's a number 9 of people at the various areas of responsibility who are 10 voicing concerns and issues, so it's, quite frankly, 11 coming from all angles. 12 Q: And, what -- at six o'clock on 13 September 5th, what effect, if any, did the political 14 heat, as you put it, have on you and your planning with 15 respect to this incident? 16 A: Well, certainly what we had been 17 planning and what we continued to plan was our approach 18 to this incident by means of an injunction. All it meant 19 was that we had to stay the course. I was informing 20 people of some information that I had received. 21 But the reality of it all is, we simply 22 continue to move forward and there -- there may be some 23 obstacles at the Ministry level in regards to how the 24 injunction or what type of injunction, but that we were 25 going to continue to pursue our injunction process and
321 that, quite frankly, it's just business as usual. 2 Q: Okay. Then, you're reported to have 3 said: 4 "Advise members that the court 5 injunction is moving along." 6 You just spoke about that. 7 "Advise members to keep tonight quiet. 8 Keep a night -- an eye on checkpoints 9 and advise Logistics what your 10 locations are." 11 And, when you indicated, advised members 12 to keep tonight quite, what were you referring to? 13 A: Well, again, we just want to maintain 14 the course, maintain the checkpoints, try -- try to keep 15 this as low-key as possible. Let's sit, hold tight, wait 16 for the injunction and when the injunction comes, then 17 we'll develop some strategy of how we deal with that 18 piece. 19 Q: Okay. Then, there's a note on page 20 43: 21 "Inspector Carson debriefed Inspector 22 Linton; gave him a list of phone 23 numbers of members. Both inspectors 24 took a drive down to the Park. 25 Inspectors Carson -- Inspector Carson
331 instructed Detective Sergeant Wright to 2 go over video and mark on the map where 3 gates are, et cetera. 4 06:32 hours, inspectors left meeting 5 and it ended." 6 And, do you recall taking a drive down to 7 the Park area with Inspector Linton that evening? 8 A: I -- yes, correct. I believe that's 9 -- we both jumped in -- in one (1) of our vehicles and, I 10 believe my vehicle, and we drove down and just had a tour 11 of the area. 12 Q: And, when you say you, "had a tour of 13 the area," did you go along Army Camp Road and East 14 Parkway Drive? 15 A: I can't tell you exactly, but I -- I 16 -- I'm sure I would have. 17 Q: Okay. Now, the -- we've talked a lot 18 about the mobile command unit and I wanted to just, for 19 the benefit of everyone, pull up a couple of photographs. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And, while we're doing that, while 24 it's... 25
341 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Technology is not 4 co-operating with me for a minute, Commissioner. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: On the screen is a photograph of the 10 Forest Detachment. That's the intersection of -- it's 11 photo 138, it's the intersection of Townsend Line and I 12 think it's -- I believe it's Broadway? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And Broadway runs west off Townsend 15 Line? 16 A: Yes -- 17 Q: At that -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the Forest Detachment is the 20 brown building in the background? 21 A: Yes, it is. 22 Q: And immediately on the right is a 23 photograph of a -- what appears to be a trailer? 24 A: Yes, it's a forty-five (45) foot 25 command trailer.
351 Q: And is that the mobile command unit? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Now, a number of these pictures were 4 taken -- virtually all of these pictures were taken after 5 September the 6th, but I'm going to pick out some of them 6 that show the inside of both the garage and the mobile 7 command unit. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, on this photograph, photo 140, 12 there's a parking lot that is used for school buses 13 today. Was that parking lot used by the OPP back in 14 September of 1995? 15 A: It was a -- it was a school bus 16 parking lot at that time. The -- the owners of the 17 property simply allowed us to park our vehicles in there 18 when we needed the space, post-September 6th. 19 Q: And so this was post-September 6th, 20 and the cars that we see there -- there was a large 21 increase in the number of officers after -- post- 22 September 6th, was there not? 23 A: That's accurate. 24 Q: And so the cars we see in this 25 photograph, 140, were cars that were there post September
361 6th. You did not use that parking lot prior to the 2 shooting of Dudley George on September 6th? 3 A: Correct. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And the photograph that -- photograph 8 146 that's on the screen right now is a photograph of the 9 garage area of -- of the Forest Detachment? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And that was used as the -- 12 A: It's a briefing area. 13 Q: -- briefing area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And some of the various maps that 16 were used, you can be -- see them here, leaning up 17 against the stairway, I guess, to the inside of the 18 Detachment? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And on the -- just inside the door 21 you can see a white board with some words on it; can you 22 read what -- tell us what that was and what the words 23 say? 24 A: It was a poster posting the project 25 plan objective. It says:
371 "Objective. To contain and negotiate a 2 peaceful [underlined] resolution." 3 Q: And who gave instructions for this 4 poster to be posted right at the entrance of the briefing 5 area? 6 A: I directed the Ident. people to 7 prepare that poster personally. And I directed that it 8 be posted and location that is found so that every 9 officer that was being briefed would have a clear 10 understanding and reminder of what the objective was. 11 So whether they, as you noticed in that 12 room, there were things like water and other refreshment 13 needs for the officers so if they attended there for a 14 briefing, for supplies or simply to travel through into 15 the building for other reasons, that every time they came 16 and went through that room, they were in fact reminded of 17 the objective of the project was. 18 Q: And this picture, I believe, was 19 taken post September 6th, was that chart posted in the 20 garage on September 5th and 6th? 21 A: That would have been posted early on 22 September 5th, early morning after the arrival of the 23 commander trailer. It would have arrived in the command 24 trailer when it was delivered to Forest Detachment 25 through the night of September 4th, early morning 6th.
381 Q: Okay. Early morning -- 2 A: Correction, 5th. 3 Q: -- of September 5th? 4 A: Yes, I'm sorry. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And this is simply another shot of 9 the garage area that was used for the briefings? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And as I understand it, the briefings 12 were -- on the shift change, all of the officers going 13 out to the checkpoints or their duties, would be briefed 14 and then the officers who had been out on the road when 15 they were relieved, would come in and be debriefed? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And that happened on September 4th -- 18 I mean September 5th and September 6th? 19 A: Right. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Then photo 149 is simply a further 24 view of the inside of the garage? 25 A: Yes. The last two (2), this one and
391 the one previous, both are photographs that were taken 2 from the doorway as you enter into the main office. 3 Q: The main office inside the 4 Detachment? 5 A: Right. The photographer would have 6 been standing with their back to the -- through the 7 doorway into the main building. 8 Q: And this photograph is photograph 150 9 -- is a shot of the inside of the Forest Detachment? 10 A: Yes, it is. 11 Q: And that's as it was setup after 12 September 6th? 13 A: Correct. The photographer would have 14 been standing basically in the same doorway but just 15 turned in the opposite direction from the previous photo. 16 Q: So he would -- the photographer was - 17 - in this photograph the garage would be behind the 18 photographer? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And this is simply another shot of 21 the inside of the Detachment as it looked post September 22 6th? 23 A: That's right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
401 2 Q: Then this shot, 1 -- photo 159 shows 3 the front of the Forest Detachment. The shot is taken, 4 really, at the edge of the property on the Townsend Line 5 side looking straight through west, approximately, and is 6 that -- that's the command trailer immediately in the 7 background? 8 A: Correct. And, if that -- at this 9 point if I could just explain, in -- in regards to the 10 trailer itself, as you can see, there's the main door you 11 enter. So, you could walk from the trailer into the 12 garage right next door to it and to the front portion of 13 the trailer is the Communications Centre portion of the 14 trailer. And if you turn to left from that doorway is 15 the meeting area of the trailer. 16 Q: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: There used to be a picture there, 21 Commissioner. My computer or I have done something, but 22 perhaps, I've got... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
411 Q: What I'm looking for is a photo 2 inside the Command Trailer and I've got two (2) on this 3 CD. There were certainly some where those "X's" were. 4 And I apologize, Commissioner for... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: This is a photo, it's image number 24 9 and do you recognize that photograph? 10 A: Yes, that's the Communications area 11 of the Command Trailer. 12 Q: So, as you -- on the photograph that 13 we looked at a minute ago when the door -- you would -- 14 when you entered the door -- the side of the trailer, you 15 turned right, you were in the Communications section of 16 the Command Trailer? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And, I see on the back of -- at least 19 when this picture was taken there's some maps and charts 20 put up at the back of the -- the trailer and that's of 21 this area? 22 A: Correct. That's for the assistance 23 of the dispatchers. 24 Q: And, we have another photograph? 25
421 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 4 going to make some of these photographs or all them 5 exhibits? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm going to make them 7 all exhibits. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because 9 these last ones do not have a number on them. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, what I'll do, 11 Commissioner, is -- is we'll get a CD -- create a CD ROM, 12 put the numbered photographs as well as photograph the 13 image number 24 that I just referred to and image number 14 25 that's on the screen now and we could, perhaps, just 15 reserve a number -- it'll be the next number -- 16 THE REGISTRAR: 432. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-432: CD ROM of photos 0138, 0140, 19 0146, 0148, 0149, 0150, 0151, 20 0159 and images 24 and 35. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- 432. And, again, 24 this is the Communications side of the trailer? 25 A: Yes. What you're seeing here is the
431 back of the people that were sitting in the previous 2 photograph. 3 Q: And then if you turn left into the 4 trailer, it's the area of the trailer that you use for 5 yourself and -- as incident commander and the -- your 6 command team? 7 A: That's correct. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, the -- the evening of September 12 5th, the -- there's a reference at page 44 and I know 13 that your -- weren't on duty but I understand that 14 Inspector Linton has passed away? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And do you know how long ago he 17 passed away, approximately? 18 A: It's in the last, I believe it was in 19 the fall of 2000 or 2001. It's been about four (4) 20 years. 21 Q: And there's a note at 21:06: 22 "Mark Dew assigned vulnerable points 23 and brief letter for handout." 24 Do you have any knowledge of what's being 25 referred to there?
441 A: No, sir, I'm afraid I don't. 2 Q: Then there's a note at the bottom: 3 "Ken Skinner enquiring about light 4 armour vehicles. Inspector Linton 5 advised one (1) is negotiated through 6 London police service. Short time and 7 long term plan is that military 8 providing two (2) LAV and we have four 9 (4) drivers. 10 Inspector Linton: I would like to see 11 them floated here. We should have them 12 here." 13 And at this point in time as we looked at 14 -- spoke about yesterday, the arrangements had been the 15 London police service would provide you with a light 16 armoured vehicle for an emergency use only, if that was 17 necessary? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And the military was -- it was still 20 the military lending you the vehicles, or lending the OPP 21 vehicles for the same purpose, defensive purposes, was 22 still being -- going through the chain of command at the 23 military? 24 A: It was still in progress, yes. 25 Q: Okay. And then the -- there's a note
451 at page 45, 21:25: 2 "Rob Graham reports natives have a fire 3 at the gate. Dumpsters and signs are 4 blocking the Park entrance and Matheson 5 by way of camp entrance, parallel with 6 our checkpoint. Approximately ten (10) 7 natives standing around on Ipperwash 8 Beach on the east. And on the part of 9 the -- and the part of the chain is 10 down. 11 Ipperwash -- Inspector Linton, Bob 12 Graham can look at the end of Ipperwash 13 beach." 14 And do you know what is being referred to 15 here, Inspector Carson? 16 A: In regards to the fire location or -- 17 Q: Fire location and then the beach. 18 With respect to the fire location, it is simply at the 19 main entrance to the Ipperwash Park? 20 A: In that vicinity, yes. 21 Q: And the -- or do you know if it's 22 down at the entrance off the sandy parking lot? 23 A: Well, that's -- that's what I am not 24 sure about. It was my perception, has always been my 25 perception, that it was near the entrance to the -- the -
461 - the Park entrance proper, the road that leads to the 2 kiosk. In that general area is where I always had 3 perceived it to be. 4 As a result of some information in recent 5 months, I guess that could be debated as to exactly where 6 that was. 7 Q: At the time back in 1995 and we'll 8 come to that, you thought that the fire in the dumpsters 9 were -- dumpsters were at the main entrance, the main 10 gate and we've heard evidence at the Inquiry that there 11 was a fire on the inside of the Park by the gate that 12 opens up from the sandy parking lot into the Park near 13 the Park store? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And that's what you're just referring 16 to now? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Then Ipperwash beach that's being 19 referred to here, it's the part of the beach down by the 20 Park; is that correct? 21 A: I believe so, yes. 22 Q: Then at 22:26 hours: 23 "Kevin Robson advises video was up -- 24 the video was through wall facing 25 outside to see who was approaching I
471 think. 2 Mark Dubois is working on same. He's 3 the guy that does this work." 4 Then the video is the video that was in 5 the kiosk gatehouse; is that what's being referred to 6 here? 7 A: Either that or the one in -- in the 8 maintenance shack. One or the other. 9 Q: Okay. Then there's a note: 10 "Wade Jacklin reports at 22:43 a couple 11 of cruiser windshields smashed from 12 24:12 which is at checkpoint 'B'. It 13 sounds like rocks being thrown at them. 14 Wade Jacklin is trying to confirm with 15 Lima 2. Rob Graham is going down to 16 their location." 17 And Wade Jacklin was an ERT team member? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And Rob Graham was an ERT team 20 sergeant? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And we have -- I'm going to play -- 23 we don't have a transcript of this but I'm going to play 24 a -- an extract from the Chatham -- one of the Chatham 25 communication tapes, Commissioner. And the note, the
481 time on the tape, Deputy Carson is 22:29:38. 2 Now 24-12 is a number for a car is that 3 correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And the -- what is -- 6 A: The number is assigned to a person as 7 opposed to the vehicle. 8 Q: Pardon me? 9 A: The number is assigned to the person 10 as opposed to the vehicle. 11 Q: Oh, okay. But it would be a person 12 who would be in the -- 13 A: One -- one of the ERT personnel. 14 Q: -- in the car? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the -- 6-8 is one of your 17 communications codes; is that correct? 6-8? 18 We're going to hear about a 6-8 on this. 19 A: A 6-8? 20 Q: Yeah. Perhaps not. Oh, excuse me. 21 It's six (6) to eight (8) people on the road. Anyway I'm 22 going to play this and we'll then stop and listen to it. 23 A: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 25 it?
491 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's no -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 3 have it? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's no -- no 5 transcript to this. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, that's 7 fine. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR:: I'm sorry, 12 Commissioner, I'll just play that again. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: Now, that is not the -- it 18 didn't work out as well -- it didn't sound -- we didn't 19 get as much sound as we -- you can if you listen to it 20 out of the system, but it appears the problem that's 21 being discussed at this point is a problem in the parking 22 lot leading down to the water, did you take that from 23 that transmission? 24 A: Yeah, there's a discussion about some 25 activities at the corner of Parkway and Army Camp Road.
501 So, they're -- they're talking about right in that 2 parking lot 3 Q: And, that's what we refer to as the 4 sandy parking lot? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And that, the picnic tables where -- 7 there were some picnic tables in the sandy parking lot -- 8 in the parking lot? 9 A: I didn't pick that up out of the -- 10 out of the transcr -- out of this transmission. 11 Q: Okay. I'll try it again because 12 there -- just so that -- to make sure that -- they call 13 them "benches" on the -- on the tape and I'll play it -- 14 A: Oh, okay. Okay. 15 Q: -- once more so that... 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 18 19 Q: I don't know if we could get the 20 sound up a little bit higher. It's... 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 23 24 Q: So we can hear someone saying, "We're 25 down here by the fence."
511 Do you hear that? 2 A: I didn't hear the term "fence". I 3 did hear the benches that time. 4 Q: We'll start again. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 7 8 Q: You heard that then? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 12 13 Q: And they appear to say, "May we have 14 some assistance down here. They're throwing stuff at 15 us", or words to that effect. 16 A: Yes. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 19 20 Q: Do you take that to be two (2) 21 different officers? There -- there was one that was 22 louder that said, "block -- blocking the parking lot with 23 benches", and then someone in the background says, "down 24 to the water"? 25 Q: Yes, there appears to be more than
521 one (1) officer communicating there. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 4 5 Q: I'm going to replay that, 6 Commissioner. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 9 10 Q: Can you pick up what the officer is 11 saying there? 12 A: No, I'm sorry, it's not clear. 13 Q: What we'll do, Commissioner, is we'll 14 -- we'll try to get a transcript made of this if we can. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 It's pretty hard to pick up some of it, obviously. 17 Is any of it typed? 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And that's -- Lima 2 is at the MNR 23 parking lot, the tactical operations centre in the St. 24 Johns Ambulance trailer? 25 A: Correct.
531 Q: And they're speaking there to 2 Sergeant Graham who's leaving the Forest Detachment? 3 A: It sounds like he's on his way down, 4 yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Our 6 transcription service is pretty sophisticated, and I 7 don't think it's picking up the -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, no, they won't 9 be able to pick it out and Mr. Falconer wishes to add 10 something again. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 12 to come to the mic if you have something to say? Usually 13 when people stand up, we assume they have some comment. 14 Yes, Mr. Falconer...? 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I was just going to 16 seek clarification from My Friend, which I probably could 17 have done from back there about where on the logger tape 18 list he's at. 19 I understand there's no transcript, but 20 for us to follow him in terms of which tape he's relying 21 on; if he could kindly just direct us to which Chatham 22 logger tape we're at in terms of the list provided to us? 23 Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's the revised list
541 that I sent out and Mr. Falconer makes a good point. I 2 apologize to My Friends, it's region -- it's number 5, 3 September 5th, 22:29:38 Chatham 0143 track 12 disc 12 of 4 20. 5 And on the list that we distributed, the - 6 - there is a bit of a description that was done by Gerry 7 Woodworth who listened to this very carefully. It's 8 basic -- it's -- it's basically what's on part of -- on 9 the -- on this -- on the tape, but it's not a perfect 10 transcription. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: But, at any rate, that -- you would 14 agree with me that this particular incident, from what we 15 can hear on the logger tape is at East Parkway Drive and 16 Army Camp Road in the sandy parking lot? 17 A: Correct. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 19 Horton...? 20 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I just 21 have some difficulty with this evidence. Given the 22 quality of the tape, given the fact that the Witness has, 23 quite properly I think, indicated that he's had 24 difficultly hearing the tape from time to time, what we 25 seem to have is Mr. Millar telling the Witness what he's
551 heard on the tape -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Asking him. 3 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- and then -- and 4 then having the Witness confirm what's on the tape. And, 5 I'm just wondering what the value of the evidence is, 6 because I'm much more interested to know what the Witness 7 remembers today independently -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- about these 10 events. And what we essentially have rather than having 11 that evidence first in a -- in a reliable way is -- is a 12 tape put to him that's barely audible. And then have Mr. 13 Millar reconstruct it for the Witness and then have the 14 Witness basically tell -- confirm that what Mr. Millar's 15 heard on the tape is correct. 16 And I -- this is an important area, 17 actually, not just in terms of whether the events 18 occurred, because there has been lost of evidence of 19 that, but what Mr. Carson's recollection of those events 20 is and -- and how -- how they related to -- to his 21 overall activities. 22 So, I -- I really would suggest that in 23 this area there should not be any further leading and I'm 24 sorry that I actually took so long to get up because I've 25 had that concern now for -- for several minutes.
561 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Mr. Horton. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: You weren't on duty on the evening of 6 September 5th? 7 A: No, sir, I wasn't. 8 Q: And you were briefed in the morning? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And the briefing in the morning was 11 at 06:34 hours, it's page 47? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And could you tell us what you were 14 told in the morning and you can refer to the notes if you 15 need to about what happened overnight in the parking lot 16 -- overnight when you were away? 17 A: When I returned in the morning I was 18 advised that the officers on the checkpoint, they'd be 19 the one in the area of the trailer park on Army Camp 20 Road, had observed a fire down -- down the roadway in the 21 area of the entrance of the Park. 22 The officers went down to check it out. 23 When they arrived there they were met with a barrage of 24 rocks, which ended up causing damage to several cruisers. 25 That's -- that's the -- in a nutshell, the
571 information as I understood it or my perception of the 2 information as I recall today. 3 Q: And, the -- what else were you told 4 about what happened overnight? 5 A: I was also advised that there had 6 been -- the officers had heard a number of gunshots at 7 one (1) point through the night. 8 Q: And were you told how many gunshots 9 there were -- they heard during the night? 10 A: I was told it was in the area of 11 fifty (50) to a hundred (100) rounds of fire that 12 appeared to be automatic gunfire. 13 Q: And what else were you told happened 14 during the night? 15 A: That there had been activity inside 16 of the Park and vehicles such as a dump truck and a back 17 hoe operating in the area. 18 Q: And who briefed you with respect to 19 what happened overnight? 20 A: I met with Inspector Linton. 21 Q: And anyone else? 22 A: Apparently Stan Korosec and Mark 23 Wright were there as well. 24 Q: And Mark Wright was on the day shift 25 with you?
581 A: Yes, he was being brought up to speed 2 as I was. 3 Q: And what about Stan Korosec? 4 A: I believe Stan had been one (1) of 5 the night shift sergeants. 6 Q: And were you -- what, if anything, 7 were you told about the cruisers? 8 A: Well, we had several that were 9 damaged, or three (3), I believe, to be specific. 10 Q: And then what did you do? There's a 11 note at the top of page 48. 12 A: I asked the question if 13 Superintendent Parkin had been brought up to speed and 14 briefed on the activities overnight. 15 Q: Yes, and anything else? 16 A: I requested that K9 be brought up to 17 the area. 18 Q: And why did you request that K9 be 19 brought up to the area? 20 A: Again, it was to have another one of 21 the tools that are available to us close at hand, in the 22 event that we required the use of a canine for a -- for a 23 track. 24 Q: And anything else? 25 A: We had some further discussion about
591 the light armoured vehicles and about the process to get 2 them and where we possibly could store them and about the 3 identification markings that would be placed on them. 4 Q: And was there a discussion about 5 storage of those vehicles? 6 A: Yes. I had mentioned to Staff 7 Sergeant Skinner that he could look to Pinery Park to see 8 if there was any location within the Park that we could 9 have access to or we could put them into a building and 10 secure them. 11 Q: Then there's a note at 6:46 and can 12 you tell us, either from your recollection if you have 13 any, when -- or from the note what you or anyone else 14 that you were meeting with did or said? 15 A: Well, I continued to meet with 16 Inspector Linton and we talked about the entrance to the 17 beach and he speaks to the fact that he doesn't think 18 there's much problem about access from the beach 19 entrance. 20 And apparently the -- overnight, Mark Dew 21 had been able to print out still photos from the videos 22 that could be handed out, if necessary, in regards to the 23 press release that was going to take place that day. 24 Also, I identified the fact that we needed 25 to get the helicopter up to check out any potential road
601 blocks in the Park itself that may have been constructed 2 as a result of the back hoe and dump truck that had been 3 operating through the night. 4 Q: And there's a note at 6:55 that 5 Inspector Linton went off duty. Then there's a note 6 about you. Can you tell us what that refers to? 7 A: It says that I was adjusting Doug 8 Babbitt's press release. I must have been provided a 9 copy of his draft press release and was making some -- 10 probably some grammatical changes. 11 Q: And in front of you in the red 12 folder, there's a press release. It's Inquiry document 13 1009044. And that's a press release dated September 6th, 14 1995. It has on it a faxed note with respect to Peter 15 Sturdy. 16 But is this the press release that was 17 being worked on in the morning of September 6th, or do 18 you know? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Are you referring to Document 23 1009042? 24 Q: No, 1009044. 25 A: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, that would make
611 sense that this the release that we're referring to. 2 Q: Okay. And that refers to -- at 3 approximately 11:00 p.m. on 5 September '95: 4 "Three (3) Ontario Provincial Police 5 vehicles on patrol near the main 6 entrance of Ipperwash Provincial Park 7 had their windshields damaged. Rocks 8 were thrown coming from inside 9 Ipperwash Provincial Park which is 10 occupied illegally by a group of First 11 Nations people. 12 No officers were injured. Police have 13 no suspects. No other incidents 14 occurred overnight." 15 And the -- have I read that correctly? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And perhaps we could mark this as the 18 next exhibit. It would be Exhibit -- 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-433. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 433. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-433: Document number 1009044. OPP 24 press release Sept 06/'95. 25
621 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And we'll come back to that press 3 release in a minute. There's a note at 7:14 and can you 4 tell us about -- what -- about what happened at 7:14? 5 A: It came to my attention that there 6 were a number of picnic tables on the sandy parking lot 7 out by the roadway at the corner of Army Camp and Parkway 8 Road. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: As a result of that, I assigned Mark 11 Wright to attend and -- and if possible video the scene 12 and return to determine exactly what the circumstances 13 were there. It appears that after the damaged cruisers 14 around midnight, that the officers had moved back the 15 checkpoints a bit and when daylight came in the morning, 16 they were -- they found these tables were piled near the 17 roadway. 18 Q: And did you see the video that Mark 19 Wright took? 20 A: I don't believe he actually took a 21 video. 22 Q: Okay. Then there's a note at 7:18. 23 Can you tell us what happened at 7:18? 24 A: I received a call from Inspector Ron 25 Fox and I advised him about the damage to the cruisers,
631 about the tables that were piled outside the Park. That 2 we were going to get the video. That the location of the 3 piled tables were adjacent to private property and that 4 there was a potential with fire near those adjacent 5 houses if the tables were set on fire. 6 And I indicated that, you know, if the 7 tables -- yeah, if the tables were set on fire there 8 would be damage to the homes. 9 And I also indicated I had spoke to Chief 10 Bressette the day before and he thought we should do 11 something. John -- I -- I indicated I was going to call 12 the Mayor of Bosanquet and speak to him about the 13 incident. 14 And that we were going to deal with this - 15 - actually I think that part is more a briefing than the 16 discussion with Ron Fox. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: But we were going to deal with the 19 table issue right away. 20 Q: And what is your recollection of 21 where -- do you know where the tables were that are being 22 referred to at this point on the morning of September the 23 6th? 24 A: My understanding from recollection is 25 that the tables were piled in a line across the parking
641 lot at the road's edge such that it would prevent 2 vehicular traffic from accessing that parking lot; that's 3 -- that's how I -- I sensed it in -- in the descriptions 4 I was provided. 5 Q: And, the -- we have no transcript or 6 audio of the telephone call with Inspector Ron Fox on the 7 morning of September 6th. Do you know why that -- that 8 wasn't -- either -- it appears not -- do you know if it 9 was recorded on -- if it wasn't recorded, why it wasn't 10 recorded? 11 A: I received the call from Ron 12 according to these notes. I couldn't tell you if I 13 received it in the Command Post or if it came in on a 14 different line within the Detachment that's not recorded. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: He may have even called me on my cell 17 phone, for that matter. 18 Q: Perhaps it would be a good time for 19 the morning break, it's 10:30? 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 10:29 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 10:48 a.m. 25
651 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: Now, there's a note at 7:25 to -- at 6 page 49 and can you tell us what happened at 7:45 -- 25, 7 excuse me? 8 A: 25 or -- oh, 7:25. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: I'm sorry. Well, I asked Stan 11 Korosec to see if he could get the helicopter up to keep 12 an eye while we removed the picnic tables and -- but 13 prior to that I wanted Mark Wright to -- to get down 14 there, have a look and come and report back. 15 Q: Okay. And then, there's a note at 16 7:29 and what happened at 7:29? 17 A: Korosec returned -- came back to the 18 Command Post indicating that the helicopter would be 19 ready to go in thirty (30) minutes. 20 Q: And then, at 7:30 you called 21 Superintendent Parkin? 22 A: Yes, I did, and gave him an update of 23 the damage to the cruisers and the issue of the tables 24 being piled on the roadway and that Peter Sturdy was 25 working on the affidavit overnight and Ron Fox had been
661 advised. 2 Q: And, there's a note that you must 3 appear if it is set on fire? 4 A: Yes, there -- I -- I obviously 5 briefed him on the issue that if the tables were set on 6 fire, the -- the risk to the neighbouring cottages. 7 Q: And, do you know where the reference 8 -- the tables at this point are -- what was your 9 understanding of where the tables were? 10 A: They were piled on the -- on the 11 sandy parking lot on the edge of the roadway at the end 12 of Parkway Drive where the junction of Army Camp Road. 13 Q: And, Commissioner, I'm going to play 14 tape 23; it's in the document, 15 "Carson_Master_complete_final _without elapse_REV2.doc" 16 D-O-C. 17 And we don't have a transcript. For -- 18 for all of these that I play we will get transcripts 19 done, the ones that we don't have, and they'll be 20 distributed to My Friends. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 24 25 John CARSON and Anthony PARKIN
671 PARKIN: Hello. 2 CARSON: Good morning, how are you today? 3 PARKIN: Not too bad, how are you. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And that's Superintendent Parkin? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: And you? 9 A: That's me. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 12 13 CARSON: Good, good. Just thought I'd give you a 14 quick 15 update here before we get into some other 16 meetings here, I can tell you that -- 17 PARKIN: Oh, okay. 18 CARSON: -- because I thought you'd want stuff as 19 early as possible. 20 PARKIN: Great. 21 CARSON: Last night we got a bit of an ambush -- 22 PARKIN: Oh. 23 CARSON: -- around eleven o'clock, 11:30, they set 24 a fire on -- on Army Camp Road itself, so 25 the ERT guys went down to check it out and
681 got bombarded by rocks from people that 2 were over the Park gate. 3 PARKIN: Some -- some of the militants -- 4 CARSON: Yeah. 5 PARKIN: -- were throwing them from -- from behind 6 the -- the gate, eh? 7 CARSON: Right. 8 PARKIN: Okay. 9 CARSON: Okay, so we got three (3) -- three (3) 10 damaged cruisers, you know, some -- 11 PARKIN: All right. 12 CARSON: -- windows damaged. 13 PARKIN: And there was nobody -- nobody hurt? 14 CARSON: No, no, we got out of there okay. But 15 overnight they piled a bunch of picnic 16 tables over the fence, between the fence 17 and the first cottage, right at the 18 beachfront. 19 PARKIN: Okay, now let me get this. Over the 20 fence, on the beach? 21 CARSON: Yeah, now if you drove down Army Camp Road 22 and continued straight off the end of it 23 and you go on to a -- a big public parking 24 area. 25 PARKIN: Okay.
691 CARSON: And that takes you right down to the 2 waterfront. 3 PARKIN: Okay. 4 CARSON: So what they did is that area between the 5 first cottage and the fence to the park, 6 which is either township or County 7 property, I don't know which. 8 PARKIN: Yeah. 9 CARSON: They piled a whole slew of picnic tables 10 in there and we don't know why, evidently 11 they did it for a -- you know, to create a 12 -- a humongous bonfire or what, I don't 13 know, and I've got somebody going down 14 right now to check it out to see exactly 15 what's there. 16 PARKIN: Uh huh. 17 CARSON: And I've MNR arranging some vehicles, 18 trucks and that, and we're going to haul 19 them out of there. 20 PARKIN: Okay. 21 CARSON: And we'll put the helicopter up to provide 22 the eye for cover, in the event that -- 23 that they try to, you know, cause us any 24 aggravation. And we've got the nighttime 25 ERT teams are just being debriefed now,
701 and I'll have them just stand by while the 2 -- the dayshift ERT go in and take them 3 out. 4 PARKIN: Okay. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 PARKIN: Yeah. 7 CARSON: But I think we've got to get them out of 8 there, because if they set a fire, we 9 can't get the damn fire department in 10 there to, you know, to prevent it from 11 spreading to the next door house, if it -- 12 if it's the way I think it is. 13 PARKIN: Yeah. So I guess there'd be somebody 14 (inaudible) house, (inaudible) the cottage 15 or something? 16 CARSON: Well I think it's -- I think it's not a 17 year round residence, I don't believe. 18 PARKIN: Yeah. 19 CARSON: Okay. But it -- but it's a significant 20 cottage in cottage terms. 21 PARKIN: Right, right, yeah. 22 CARSON: And so you know, from a public perspective 23 I think that we've got to address that 24 quick, quick. 25 PARKIN: No, that's great.
711 CARSON: Okay. 2 PARKIN: The videos. 3 CARSON: Yes. 4 PARKIN: Working? 5 CARSON: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no problem. The one 6 (1) place is getting information, the 7 other one (1) there's no activity. 8 PARKIN: Oh, okay, good. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 PARKIN: Because -- okay, well that's great. 11 CARSON: Yeah. 12 PARKIN: That's good. 13 CARSON: And we got a -- we got a video from the -- 14 from the sky. 15 PARKIN: Yeah. 16 CARSON: And we have the video printer (inaudible) 17 so we can print out some pictures and see 18 some of the activity going on outside, and 19 we're going to work on that some more 20 today. 21 PARKIN: Again I guess the next thing you'll have 22 to explore is audio? 23 CARSON: That's right. 24 PARKIN: Okay. 25 CARSON: Okey dokey.
721 PARKIN: So basically it's very quiet except for 2 the one (1) incident there where the guys 3 got some bottles and stuff thrown at them? 4 CARSON: Yes. 5 PARKIN: No injuries, a couple cruisers with some 6 minor damage? 7 CARSON: Yeah. 8 PARKIN: Were there any negotiations (inaudible). 9 CARSON: Not overnight. 10 PARKIN: No -- no, talking? 11 CARSON: No, we're going to push that a little bit 12 today. 13 PARKIN: Okay. And do you expect to hear anything 14 from MNR today? 15 CARSON: Hopefully. Peter Sturdy was working on 16 the affidavit overnight and I hope to hear 17 right away. The Park Superintendent and 18 the enforcement guy is here this morning. 19 So we're -- 20 PARKIN: Okay. 21 CARSON: -- we're expecting, you know, information 22 as soon as it's available. 23 PARKIN: Okay. All right then, I'll wait to hear 24 from you next, and I'll send a little 25 update to (inaudible) this morning.
731 CARSON: Okay, and Ron FOX is already called and 2 he's got the majority of that information 3 already. 4 PARKIN: Great. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 PARKIN: Okay, fine. Have a good one. 7 CARSON: Okay. 8 PARKIN: Talk to you later. 9 CARSON: Okay, bye. 10 11 End of conversation. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Now, the cottage that you're 15 referring to in this call, there is, today, a big white 16 cottage right next to the Sandy Parking Lot on the west 17 side, at the top of the beach over -- top of the dunes, I 18 guess, or the hill, overlooking the water. 19 Was that cottage, to your understanding, 20 there in 1995? 21 A: I believe it is. But -- 22 Q: What is the cottage that you were 23 concerned about back in 1995 in this conversation? 24 A: It's the first cottage right next to 25 the parking lot. If you're standing in the Sandy Parking
741 Lot and looking down Parkway Drive, you're -- you can't 2 help but look at that cottage. 3 Q: Okay. And now if I could take you 4 back to the calls that we were looking at -- we listened 5 to, the first call that we listened to was Call Number 5 6 on the document, "Carson addition without collapse", that 7 I provided to My Friends. And that call was recorded at 8 22:30 and refers to -- you have -- you listened to the 9 recording, along with the rest of us, and it's not the 10 best. 11 But it -- where do you take the loc -- 12 from what you could hear on the call, where do you take 13 the location of the problem to be, as reported by the 14 officers, in that telephone call -- in that radio 15 transmission? 16 A: In -- in regards to the bonfire on 17 the roadway? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Oh. It -- it was my understanding 20 that it was near the entrance of the Park on -- on the 21 Army Camp Road but closer to the Park entrance. 22 Q: And in the transmission that we 23 listened to at 22:29, 24:12 to Lima 2, do you know the 24 location that they're referring to in that transmission? 25 A: Yeah, but quite frankly I can't be
751 certain, but it -- it appears to be closer to the Sandy 2 Parking Lot. 3 Q: Then there is a -- a note at 7:35 and 4 what happens at 7:35? 5 A: Les Kobayashi advises me that at 9:30 6 the inner -- inter-ministerial meeting will be taking 7 place. 8 Q: And "that you will know", it says 9 now, but it -- presumably should be "know more after 10 that"? 11 A: Yeah -- Yes. We -- we would expect 12 to get some information from that as to the progress of 13 the injunction process. 14 Q: And at 7:38 you give -- what do you 15 do at 7:38? 16 A: I directed Kent -- Staff Sergeant 17 Kent Skinner to get the police decals we have, that's the 18 markings we want to put on the LAV's if and when they 19 arrive. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: And we wanted to have them available 22 to us at the -- at Forest so that when -- when the 23 opportunity comes, that we will be able to quickly mark 24 them up as we need. 25 Q: Yes.
761 A: Then Stan Korosec was directed to 2 have the Number 1, two (2) District ERT teams go down to 3 the TOC site and just standby until Mark Wright arrives. 4 And that the Ministry of Natural Resources 5 is getting some vehicles that will meet them there so 6 that they can remove the picnic tables. 7 Q: Yes. And then at 7:50? 8 A: "Mark Wright came back to the command 9 post drawing the scene of a dozen, 10 twelve (12) tables, two (2) tents, two 11 (2) children/teenagers. 12 And I said get the ERT teams -- oh the 13 two (2) ERT teams, that are prepared to 14 go off duty, to go in and get it all 15 and clear it out. And make sure that 16 Constable Evans [he's one of the 17 identification officers] is there to 18 video tape everything and have the 19 chopper up with an eye and have him 20 stand off." 21 What I'm saying here is have him stand 22 away until we go in then he could move in closer once -- 23 once the officers are in there moving -- removing the 24 picnic tables. 25 Q: Okay. Then, the -- at 7:51 you have
771 a call, although it's not noted, with Mr. Doug Babbitt 2 about a press release and that's call number 24 on the 3 list, "Carson Master Complete Final Without Elapsed Time" 4 And, it's -- we don't have a transcript of 5 this call. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 8 9 John CARSON and Doug BABBITT 10 11 (Phone ringing) 12 13 BABBITT: Sergeant BABBITT. 14 CARSON: Oh, you are there. Yeah, I just want to 15 make sure, yeah, hang on just a sec, yeah. 16 Oh, okay. 17 How's it going? 18 BABBITT: Good. 19 CARSON: Any calls this morning? 20 BABBITT: Very, very few. 21 CARSON: Did you get the press release all right? 22 BABBITT: No, we haven't got it here yet. 23 CARSON: It's not there yet? 24 BABBITT: I don't think so. 25 (Background) Did a press release come in?
781 No, we haven't got anything here. 2 CARSON: It didn't come back? 3 BABBITT: No, we're waiting for it, just -- just -- 4 CARSON: Okay, I'll -- I'll take care of it right 5 now. 6 BABBITT: Okay. 7 CARSON: Thanks. 8 BABBITT: Thanks, John. 9 CARSON: Bye. 10 11 End of Conversation. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Then, at 8:08 you have -- it's call 15 number 25 on the list, "Casts Carson Master Complete 16 Final Without Elapse" at 8:08, and the -- we don't have a 17 transcript for it, it's a very short one, but we'll just 18 play it. 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 21 22 John CARSON and Doug BABBITT 23 24 (Phone ringing) 25
791 BABBITT: Sergeant BABBITT. 2 CARSON: Hang on, Doug. 3 (Talking in the background) 4 CARSON: You got your fax? 5 BABBITT: Yes, I did. 6 CARSON: Okay, sorry about that, there was a little 7 -- little issue here, not a big deal. 8 BABBITT: Okay. It's -- it's already gone out. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 BABBITT: I sent it to everybody else that we're 11 supposed to send it to. 12 CARSON: Okay. All right. 13 BABBITT: Okay, thanks, John. 14 CARSON: Is everything else okay? 15 BABBITT: Yeah, we're looking forward to our move 16 today. 17 CARSON: Oh, right, that's being addressed? 18 BABBITT: Yeah, it is, everything's being looked 19 after. That Bill DENNIS was a good guy to 20 choose. 21 CARSON: (Laughing) 22 BABBITT: (Laughing). 23 CARSON: The right people for the right job, my 24 friend. 25 BABBITT: There you go.
801 CARSON: Okay. 2 BABBITT: Thanks. 3 CARSON: Thanks. Oh by the way. 4 BABBITT: Yeah. 5 CARSON: I guess you and I are bunking together 6 allegedly tonight. 7 BABBITT: Oh, I'm down in Pinery or Grand Bend now. 8 CARSON: Oh, okay. Well that'll work out just 9 fine, because I give -- well, I gave Dale 10 LINTON my key, and he can sleep during the 11 day, I'll go in there tonight, so that'll 12 work out just fine. 13 BABBITT: Okay. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 BABBITT: All right then, thank you. 16 CARSON: Yeah. 17 BABBITT: Okay, bye. 18 CARSON: Bye. 19 20 End of Conversation. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Then, at -- and that's -- the press 24 release, I believe, that was being discussed was the one 25 we marked as P-433?
811 A: I believe so, yes. 2 Q: And, was there some discussion about 3 the automatic weapon fire that you had received 4 information about with respect to the press release; do 5 you recall? 6 A: Was there -- do you mean was it 7 discussed whether we put it in or not? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: I -- I don't have any independent 10 recollection one (1) way or the other, quite frankly. 11 Q: Okay. Then if I could ask you at 12 8:11, there's a note and can you tell us what happened at 13 8:11? 14 A: "Had some discussion and Sergeant 15 Korosec indicated that the back-hoe and 16 the dump truck were in there last night." 17 Q: And when it says "in there last 18 night", what is being referred to? 19 A: Oh, we're talking about in the 20 Provincial Park itself. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: "And Constable Mark Granston 23 apparently pepper strayed somebody and 24 thinks he hit him with the pepper 25 spray. And I asked Kent Skinner if he
821 had the large cannister of pepper stray 2 with the TRU team. 3 And Korosec indicated we had an extra 4 case of OC spray and Bill Dennis will 5 look after getting that. And also some 6 discussion about getting ASP batons for 7 the ERT officers. 8 Q: And what is OC spray referred to? 9 A: It's -- the common name is pepper 10 spray. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: There's a -- there's a proper 13 terminology but I'll -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: I messed -- I messed that up. 16 Q: -- who suggests getting ASP batons? 17 A: I believe that was my direction. 18 Q: And why was that? 19 A: Well at that time we were just in the 20 middle of transitioning from a twenty-six (26) inch 21 wooden baton that was carried on the belt in a eye hook 22 and we were moving to an ASP baton which is a metal 23 collapsible baton. 24 The ASP collapsible baton is carried on 25 the belt but it collapses to roughly six (6), seven (7)
831 inches in length. And it's a much easier piece of 2 equipment to carry on the belt. 3 The -- the difficulty with the wooden 4 batons, the use of the baton and the effectiveness of the 5 baton is -- is really no different. The issue is that 6 the larger twenty-six (26) inch baton, a lot of officers 7 don't carry it because it's cumbersome. And when you're 8 trying to get in and out of vehicles it's getting caught 9 and it's hanging down the side of your leg and it's just 10 a real aggravation to carry. So what we had done in our 11 patrol vehicles is we had placed baton holders on the 12 inside of the -- both front doors. 13 And unfortunately what ends up happening 14 is most of the time officers when they need the baton 15 it's in the holder in the front door and not on their 16 belt where it's needed. 17 So some of the officers at that time had 18 ASP batons in their equipment and some did not. And I 19 wanted all the officers to have the use of force 20 equipment available to them in the event that it was 21 required. 22 So the simple way to do that was to issue 23 them all with the same ASP baton and with the -- the 24 holder that would be on their belt so that they would 25 have their baton with them at all times.
841 Q: And when you refer to the use of 2 force; you just referred to use of force? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what's -- what did you mean by 5 that? 6 A: Well use of force equipment is all 7 the equipment that's available to an officer in the 8 different levels of force necessary. 9 When you talk the basic use of force, you 10 talk about hand to hand use of force applying personal -- 11 taking control physically then your next use of force is 12 a baton or pepper spray depending on the situation the 13 officers face. 14 And of course it -- it escalates to the 15 lethal use of force, that being the 40 calibre pistol 16 that the officers carry. So it's just one of the levels 17 in the continuum of force. 18 Q: And the -- when the ASP baton is 19 extended, it extends to how long back in 1995? 20 A: I believe it's twenty-six (26) 21 inches. 22 Q: And it was made of metal? 23 A: It's metal, yes. 24 Q: And we will have an ASP baton before 25 Inspector -- Deputy Carson is finished to demonstrate to
851 everyone. So -- he -- now there's a note: 2 "John Carson brings up the issue of 3 training for the ASP batons. Stan 4 Korosec advises that Dave Stankevich 5 can do the training. 6 John Carson asked Stan Korosec to find 7 out how many we need. Call stores to 8 get them." 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And in the normal -- when you -- 11 normally when a new piece of equipment back in 1995, was 12 introduced, what type of training would there have been, 13 normally, with respect to an ASP -- a piece of equipment 14 such as the ASP baton? 15 A: Well, depending on what the -- the 16 equipment is, I mean, any new equipment introduced is 17 accompanied with the appropriate training. 18 An ASP baton, as far as the use of the 19 baton, is identical to a wooden baton. The only issue 20 between that -- from a training perspective that's 21 required in regards to an ASP baton is the fact that it 22 is collapsable and so it's how you carry out, how you 23 take it out of the holder, how you open it and how you 24 retract it, that the training is required to address. 25 Q: Okay.
861 A: So, it's a -- it's a handling of it, 2 as opposed to the actual use -- the actual -- like, 3 there's no new training in regards to the types of 4 strikes and where you can strike and that type of thing. 5 It's just a handling of the -- of the -- 6 of the baton itself. 7 Q: The ASP baton, as I understand it, 8 has as well, at the end of the -- when it's -- at the end 9 of the baton, has a little metal sort of round metal 10 piece? 11 A: On the very tip? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Yes, it's round, ball-like, yes. 14 Q: Now, the -- I note at page 51 of the 15 logger notes, the two (2) calls that I played with 16 Sergeant Babbitt are listed at 8:14 and 8:15 and the 17 calls as noted on the logger tape were 7:51 and 8:08. 18 I take it those were the same calls? 19 A: I believe so. 20 Q: Then at 8:15, there's a note that 21 Mark Wright advised you that the Mayor of Bosanquet was 22 there to see him and you asked Mark Wright to ask the 23 Mayor to come in. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that's Mayor Fred Thomas?
871 A: It is. 2 Q: And there's a note at 8:17, can you 3 tell us what happened in your meeting with Mayor Thomas? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: We had, it appears to be a fairly 8 lengthy discussion. He indicated they had a regular 9 Council meeting and this issue didn't help much. They 10 were just in the process of opening tenders for a water 11 line for the Ipperwash area. 12 Q: And does that refer to the whole area 13 or the Army Camp or what or do you recall? 14 A: I think it's a water line that 15 actually travels past CFB Ipperwash and into the 16 Ipperwash beach area is how I understand it, which may 17 not be a 100 percent -- 18 Q: Yeah -- 19 A: -- accurate, but -- 20 Q: Sure. 21 A: -- generally I was of the 22 understanding it went past the Military Base. 23 Q: Okay. Yes? 24 A: I indicated that we had been talking 25 to Tom Bressette and he wasn't supportive of -- of the
881 actions of the people down there. And the Mayor 2 indicated to me that he didn't want me to take offence in 3 regards to the issues they were trying to address and I 4 believe we're talking about the press release that had 5 gone out the day before. 6 Mayor indicated they were trying to take a 7 low key to this. And they feel they are the third-party 8 involved here. 9 Again, he reiterated the issue about Outer 10 Drive and I assured him that we were dealing with that 11 and that we had put a patrol on that area and, 12 particularly, we were using the ERT teams. 13 Fred Thomas indicated the residents are 14 pleased with the visibility of the police officers and 15 happy, basically, that we are there. He inquired about 16 school buses and I indicated they could go down and turn 17 around and in particular we're talking about the Silver 18 Birch area on Army Camp Road. 19 And, I just had some discussion with him 20 in that we prefer they go down and turn around and come 21 back out as opposed to going down around the corner by 22 the Provincial Park. And informed him that the cruisers 23 had the windows smashed out of them the night before and 24 the Mayor indicated he'd been in contact with Marcel 25 Beaubien and informed him of the situation.
891 Fred Thomas asked about the injunction and 2 I advised that if -- well, I -- I take him through the 3 whole process again about the differences between 4 trespass and the use of an injunction and -- and that 5 type of issues in regards to the legal processes. And 6 that explaining to him that, you know, we need to get a 7 court order and if there's a violation of a court order, 8 we have a criminal offence and the steps that allow us to 9 take in regards to release with conditions, et cetera. 10 And again, a court order would declare the 11 issue of ownership of the Park. And we agreed that the - 12 - the Park is being occupied illegally. 13 The Mayor indicated to me that we, the 14 police, have the full support of the community and feels 15 they're being terrorized. And I indicated to him that 16 the Premier and the Solicitor General wanted to deal with 17 this and that the Interministerial Meeting is going to 18 take place again this morning. 19 And, I also alerted him that the occupiers 20 had moved in garbage containers up against the gate, 21 piled up some wood and there had been a fire and when the 22 officers responded they were ambushed with rocks. 23 He also indicated that he's concerned 24 about his spouse, that she's at home alone and the 25 location where they live. And he didn't want officers
901 going to the house and speaking to her, that she was very 2 upset, but he would like some patrols in the area if 3 possible. And I -- I assured him I'd make sure that our 4 supervisors were aware of the location of his residence 5 and provide patrols. 6 At this point, I had informed him that we 7 had undercover people working in the Park through the 8 month of August and Thomas reiterated again that the 9 people are very upset out there. 10 And the only other thing that took place 11 in regards to this meeting was that Minister Thomas 12 wanted to be kept in the information loop, that if we did 13 succeed in getting an injunction, that Ken Williams would 14 let -- be made -- be made aware of it and that they could 15 work through with their plans and they had equipment such 16 as backhoes available if that was necessary. And, I 17 assured him we'd keep in touch. 18 Q: Okay. And, there's a reference that 19 you -- you referred to at the top of the page: 20 "The Premier and Solicitor General want 21 to deal with this." 22 And, what was this about? 23 A: Again, this is about the -- the 24 meeting that's going forward on -- I believe it was 9:30 25 that day, the Interministerial meeting to seek the
911 injunction and the sense is, is that the Premier and 2 Solicitor General are supportive of that process 3 continuing. 4 Q: Okay. And when you were briefed in 5 the morning of September the 6th, you were told as you 6 testified both before and after I played the -- the 7 communication at 22:29 on September 6th, that you 8 understood the alter -- the fire to be on Army Camp Road 9 outside the main gate to the camp? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And the main gate to the camp would 12 lead past the kiosk or gatehouse into the Park? 13 A: Right. We're talking the main gate 14 into the Provincial Park. 15 Q: Into the Park, yes. 16 A: Right, right, yes. 17 Q: And were you advised by anyone that 18 the -- that officers had tried to push picnic tables out 19 of the sandy parking lot? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: And you were advised that Mark -- 22 Constable Granston had pepper sprayed someone? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Were you advised of the circumstances 25 in which -- in which Constable Granston pepper sprayed
921 someone? 2 A: No. I wasn't provided that 3 information. 4 Q: And was the TRU team deployed on the 5 evening of September 5th to your knowledge? 6 A: Definitely they were not deployed. 7 Q: And how do you -- you say definitely 8 they were not deployed, how do you -- on what basis do 9 you make that statement. 10 A: The deployment of TRU is a major step 11 which requires at least an inspector's approval. For a 12 TRU team tasking, it would have had to been either Dale 13 Linton or myself who would have paged them out or called 14 Skinner to have them come out for a particular task. 15 It would be unreasonable to believe that 16 Dale Linton would have gone off duty and not inform me 17 that he called the TRU team out. 18 Q: And did you find any indication in 19 the scribe notes or see any indication in the scribe 20 notes that there -- the TRU team had been called out when 21 you were off duty from approximately seven o'clock on 22 September 5th to seven o'clock in the morning on 23 September 6th? 24 A: There was no indication whatsoever 25 the the TRU team had been tasked for any assignment that
931 I'm aware of. 2 Q: And if the TRU team -- would 3 individual members of the TRU team participate in a -- in 4 a -- in roadblocks or any of those -- any of the sort of 5 routine -- the patrol duties separate and apart from 6 being part of the TRU team? 7 A: Could it happen? In -- there -- 8 there may be times when we would ask TRU team members to 9 do duties that are non-TRU team tasks, but in a situation 10 like this where team is placed in particular at Pinery 11 Park on standby, absolutely not. 12 Q: And were you advised by Dale Linton 13 or anyone else that he had, during the night, from seven 14 o'clock September 5th to the morning of September 6th, 15 whether he had assigned TRU members to do anything other 16 than act as TRU team? 17 A: There was no indication whatsoever. 18 Q: And Constable Gra -- is it -- 19 A: Granston. 20 Q: -- Granston, what was he a member of? 21 A: He was a member of the Number 1 22 District ERT team. 23 Q: And so he was not involved -- he was 24 not a TRU team member? 25 A: No but he would be dressed in the
941 grey uniform which is similar to a TRU team. 2 Q: Okay. And I'm going to play another 3 transmission. It's at 50 -- 12:53 on September 6th. 4 It's re -- it's under region number 6 in, "Carson_ 5 addition_ without elapse." 6 The chart that we have provided to My 7 Friends. A: Which tape number are we referring 8 to? 9 Q: It's not on that big list, it's -- 10 A: Oh. 11 Q: -- a separate, smaller list that -- 12 A: Okay, I'm sorry. 13 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 16 17 Q: And could you hear what was said in 18 that transmission? 19 A: Yes, sir, I did. 20 Q: And what did you hear in that 21 transmission? 22 A: It indicates that an officer drove by 23 the parking lot. There was twenty-five (25) males, a 24 fire, the driveway was blocked with picnic tables and 25 they got hit with more rocks.
951 Q: And what did -- and I believe that 2 there was something, the location where the altercation 3 had been; did you hear that on the tape? 4 A: I didn't pick that up specific, 5 sorry. 6 Q: I'll play it again. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 9 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: I believe he's saying, and I don't 12 want to put words into your mouth, but it sounds like -- 13 A: He drove by the location where they 14 had they incident. 15 Q: The previous -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- altercation? 18 A: Yes. 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 21 22 Q: And where do you understand that that 23 location is that's being referred to in that radio 24 transmission? 25 A: That appears to be the entrance area
961 to the sandy parking lot on the edge of Parkway Drive. 2 Q: And that's -- runs off the 3 intersection where Army Camp Road curves around and 4 becomes East Parkway Drive? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And leads north to the lake? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And on the morning of September 6th, 9 were you advised of this incident that's reported in the 10 call at 12:53? 11 A: No, I was -- I was only aware of the 12 incident regarding the rocks had smashed the windshields 13 out of the three (3) cruisers. 14 Q: Okay. Then at 8:27, there's a note 15 about Mark Wright. 16 "Mark Wright advises there..." 17 This is page 53. 18 A: Oh, correct. 19 Q: "...they're waiting for the truck to 20 arrive." 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And Mark Wright, at this point, is 23 down to deal with the picnic tables? 24 A: Yes, he went forward, yes. 25 Q: And then there's a note, "8:27"; was
971 this a telephone call or a meeting with Les Kobayashi? 2 Can you tell us what this is about? 3 A: I believe Kobayashi was at the 4 command post at that point in time and it indicated the 5 Deputy Minister had called and we're -- they're not going 6 for an injunction. 7 Basically, they want him to retract that 8 position and indicates that he told Daryl just -- Daryl, 9 that's one of the MNR people, to hang tight, check with 10 Pete, who is Peter Sturdy. And I indicated to Kobayashi 11 that we, the OPP, are pursuing the option of the 12 injunction until we have a court order that gives us a -- 13 I put here "a stamp" which means gives us some direction, 14 we simply don't have anything. 15 Q: And then, there's a note? 16 A: Yes, I indicate that if they say 17 they're not getting an order -- some -- an injunction, 18 someone will be upset. 19 Q: And, what are you referring to there? 20 A: Well, I was -- in my mind, it 21 would be our chain of command, because, I mean that's the 22 -- the -- our position right from Day 1 that we had 23 shared with the -- with the Ministry of Natural 24 Resources, but one (1) of the people that someone was 25 going to be, was going to be me.
981 I certainly was not going to be too 2 pleased to continue the -- the checkpoints and trying to 3 manage a situation if the property owners weren't going 4 to take the steps necessary to profide -- provide us with 5 the legal assistance that we felt we needed. 6 Q: And were you under the impression, at 7 this point in time, that MNR wanted the Ontario 8 Provincial Police to remove the occupiers from the Park 9 without the force of an injunction? 10 A: I never had a sense of that, no. 11 Q: And, if the MNR had decided, as it's 12 being discussed here, not to get an injunction, what, as 13 of 8:39 on the morning of September 6th, what would the 14 OPP do? Would they... 15 A: Well, my -- I -- I can tell you 16 clearly what I would have done, I would have picked up 17 the phone and called Chris Coles, and I would have 18 certainly put -- put it to him very strenuously that he 19 would have to get on the -- the line with the Ministry of 20 Natural Resources people and -- and resolve it. I'm not 21 in a position to do much about it. 22 I've got too many things on my plate. 23 But, I would currently have my Chief Superintendent take 24 whatever steps necessary to get to the bottom of 25 whatever's going on here.
991 Q: Okay. Then, there's a note at the 2 top of page 54 about Don Bell of the RCMP, and then Don 3 Bell/Vince George? Can you tell us what Mr. Bell told 4 you with respect to Mr. George? 5 A: "Sergeant Bell indicates that Vince 6 George came back last night and 7 identified some of the people. Advised 8 they are not suspect." 9 So, I just -- I just would gather from 10 that that this is probably some of the information that 11 came off of the -- the video that was captured from the 12 helicopter, in all likelihood. 13 Q: Okay. Then, there's a note at 8:42. 14 "John Carson: Have any of -- idea of 15 who's coming in? Detective Sergeant 16 Bell states he does not." 17 And what's that refer to? 18 A: Bell had indicated that he received a 19 call from the RCMP and that someone from the RCMP was 20 going to come up to see me for something, and I was just 21 asking him if he knew who they were sending and he didn't 22 know who the person would be. 23 Q: And then, there's a note: 24 "John Carson wants to put the ATV's out 25 today."
1001 What does that note refer to? 2 A: I wanted to put officers on ATV's, we 3 -- we have a couple of ATV's in the Forest Detachment, 4 and have them patrol the -- the beach area that leads up 5 to -- in front of the cottages towards the Ipperwash 6 Park. 7 Q: And, ATV's are all terrain vehicles? 8 A: Oh, yes, I'm sorry, yes. 9 Q: There's a note: 10 "Want to be satisfied that we should or 11 not do something." 12 What's that refer to? 13 A: Well, I just want to make sure that 14 we're doing everything we're can and that we're doing the 15 right things for the right reasons. 16 Q: Okay. What else? 17 A: We wanted to put the helicopter back 18 up. See if we could obtain some further video so we could 19 check for the potential barricade locations within the 20 Park, and map that out; have some understanding of what 21 was located in regards to the entrance; identify any or 22 all barriers and problems, so that we're sure of where 23 they are, and make sure we get a film of each entrance, 24 and of the building, so that we know what's at or around 25 the buildings in each case.
1011 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Then there's a note: 4 "Truck has arrived. Mark Wright says 5 give them the green light. Mark 6 advises to send the chopper and the 7 truck in. 8 John Carson: If get any arrests, get 9 them out quickly." 10 And what does that refer to? 11 A: This is the removal of the picnic 12 tables that are on the Sandy Parking Lot. It's Mark 13 Wright giving the authority to move forward with the 14 truck, load the picnic tables, and for the helicopter to 15 be above, monitoring the situation, and that if -- my 16 direction that if there was any arrests, to arrest them 17 and quickly remove them from the area. 18 Q: And the -- did the officers then 19 proceed with respect to the picnic tables? 20 A: Yes, it was completed. 21 Q: And we'll come to that. There's a 22 note at 8:50, something about vehicle modifications, 23 whatever that is. But, "John Carson..." there's -- the - 24 - the discussion about the decals, and you're told by 25 Kent Skinner that they're on their way.
1021 Is Mr. Skinner now in the command post? 2 A: I believe he was at that time, yes. 3 Q: Okay. And you instruct Bill Dennis 4 to get a hold of Inspector Shearer to get batons. You 5 needed fifty-seven (57) batons? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: That's the number you had been told? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And how many officers did you have -- 10 ERT officers did you have on the ground then -- on 11 September 6th? 12 A: It's -- there was four (4) teams, 13 which is approximately sixty (60). 14 Q: And so you were getting an ASP baton 15 for virtually every one of the sixty (60) officers? 16 A: Yes, I -- I suspect we asked for a 17 few spares. 18 Q: Okay. And then -- but what you 19 wanted was to have -- all of the officers to have the 20 same ASP baton? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Then there's a note at 8:47, 23 "Sergeant Seltzer arrives". 24 And can you tell us about your discussion 25 with Sergeant Seltzer?
1031 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And Constable Vince George, I take 4 it's Constable Vince George? 5 A: Yes, it is. I had a discussion with 6 Sergeant Seltzer in regards to Vince George who had just 7 arrived about that same time, whether he feels 8 comfortable or not to go in and get involved in the 9 discussions and -- and that's basically what Seltzer 10 indicates, that he feels it's not really negotiation, 11 it's just dialogue, and have somewhat -- somebody that 12 they would talk to. 13 And I suggested that -- to Sergeant 14 Seltzer that Vince George could basically be the 15 introduction person, and also have him take Sergeant Marg 16 Eve with them, and that she could do the talking, if -- 17 if we could establish some dialogue. 18 And I indicated that Constable George 19 provides a bit of safety to us. He certainly is well 20 known and people would not be threatened by his presence 21 and, again, that he be basically a facilitator, just to 22 help us, you know, establish some dialogue. 23 Seltzer agreed with that and he also felt 24 that a female officer would be acceptable as well, and we 25 just had some discussion, if we had anybody else who
1041 would be more appropriate than - than the individuals 2 we'd already discussed. 3 And I indicated to Brad Seltzer that we 4 should get Lorne Smith over to Kettle Point to see if he 5 could speak with Bob George there. 6 Q: And let me ask -- I asked about Chief 7 Tom Bressette and Miles Bressette. I didn't ask you 8 about Ron George. Did you consider asking Ron George to 9 assist with opening dialogues -- a dialogue with the 10 occupiers at any time on September 5th or September 6th, 11 1995? 12 A: No he was not asked. 13 Q: And why wasn't he asked to assist? 14 A: At that time he was in private 15 practice and he had provided legal defence for the 16 parties involved in the toll booth or the toll booth 17 incident earlier and felt that -- I felt that asking him 18 to become involved in this is a bit of a conflict. 19 Q: And that's why you didn't ask him? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Then the -- 22 A: But if I could just speak to Bob 23 George who would be Ron George and Vince George's 24 father -- 25 Q: Yes.
1051 A: -- I felt that Bob would have 2 influence. I felt the occupiers did not want to have any 3 discussion with Chief Bressette that there was certainly 4 some animosity there because of public statements that 5 had been made. 6 But I felt Bob George had influence with 7 the occupiers, or at least knew people who were of 8 influence who may be able to assist us in dialogue. 9 So in -- in my view, there was a -- a 10 great difference in regards to the ability to influence 11 depending on which individual we're speaking to. 12 Q: And so you were very -- you wished to 13 try to engage Bob George? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: Then if I could just ask you a 16 question and I -- I presume it's simply a typographical 17 error. At page 54, the time goes from 8:50 and then back 18 to 8:47. Do you see that on page 54? 19 A: Correct. And I think -- I think your 20 assumption is probably accurate. 21 Q: And at -- if I could take you to 22 Exhibit 427 which is the handwritten notes. At page 460 23 there's a period of time from 8:15 to 9:42 where there 24 are no handwritten notes and then there's a note at page 25 462, notes typed directly on computer.
1061 A: Correct. You'll see earlier when 2 shift change it indicates -- I believe it's Sean Johnson 3 went off duty -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- and Karen Shaw came on duty. 6 Karen Shaw is one of our administrative staff from 7 District Headquarters at that time, who has those above 8 average administrative skills, particularly around 9 typing. 10 And some of the notes she would have typed 11 directly into the computer, and some notes she would have 12 made longhand and then captured them on the computer as 13 time permitted. 14 Q: Okay. Then at 8:59 there's a note 15 where you instruct Brad Seltzer to have Lorne Smith go 16 and visit with Bob George and some of the Elders. Can 17 you -- 18 A: Yes. Again, that's further 19 discussion with Brad Seltzer about Lorne Smith assisting 20 in going down and speaking to Bob George, and the Elders. 21 And in particular, give them some assurance that we 22 wanted this to be peaceful. 23 And my intent here is that even if we 24 can't make direct dialogue, I wanted the message to be 25 delivered, however that might occur, that we intended to
1071 keep this peaceful and make Bob or whoever they could 2 speak to, aware that we did get ambushed last night. 3 And you know, we're looking -- you know, 4 to try to keep this under control. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Seltzer and I talked about -- he had 7 asked if he should go down with Lorne Smith and I felt 8 that was a good idea. Let the, you know, introduce 9 somebody else besides Lorne and as I indicate earlier, 10 Sergeant Seltzer is a very personable individual who 11 certainly has -- has a way with people. 12 Q: Yes...? 13 A: And it was about that time that 14 Sergeant Korosec indicated that the picnic tables had 15 been removed with no problem and nobody had been 16 arrested. 17 Q: Okay. And the Elders that you were 18 referring to; who were you referring to? 19 A: Well, I was referring to Bob 20 Bressette in particular, but also there's other people 21 like Earl Bressette and others that are certainly well- 22 respected in the community. And it would certainly seek, 23 or I would suggest that Seltzer seek Bob Bressette's or, 24 sorry, Bob George's advice as to who the best people 25 would be discuss with.
1081 Q: Okay. And then there's a note about 2 nine o'clock Kent Skinner with respect to cell phones and 3 a -- Kent Skinner suggests that you'd have hard lines to 4 do talks out there. 5 And I take it the talks, even though it 6 says T-A-L -- T-A-L-K-S is really talk, should refer to 7 TOC, T-O-C? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And that -- the TOC is the MNR 10 parking lot -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- TOC? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then at 9:03, there's a note and 15 again discussing negotiations, but it starts: 16 "John wants them -- Carson wants them 17 to know that we are there. Keep 18 pressing them. Keep some dialogue 19 going." 20 Can you tell us is -- was this is a 21 discussion with Sergeant Seltzer as well? 22 A: Sergeant Seltzer was there, yes. 23 What this means is we want the occupiers to know we're 24 there. We want officers -- well, we had assigned various 25 people to go to the fence and attempt to establish some
1091 dialogue. 2 But we wanted to -- to make them aware we 3 were there and as far as the checkpoints that officers 4 were there, and they were going to stay there. 5 There had been some discussion earlier 6 about Bert Manning wanting us to remove the roadblocks, 7 and it simply wasn't going to happen. 8 But we wanted to do what we could to 9 establish dialogue. 10 Q: Okay. Yes. And there's a discussion 11 about Marg Eve? 12 A: Yes, we talked about getting Marg Eve 13 and using her. She was there by this point. 14 We wanted to try to use her as the primary 15 person, if at all possible, and we had some discussion if 16 the -- if Seltzer and Marg Eve walked across the fence 17 would somebody come up to them to talk to them and -- 18 because it -- we anticipated that someone would approach 19 them and tell them to get out. 20 Q: And if they -- and why -- why did you 21 -- you wanted to put somebody in -- somebody go in to the 22 Park; why was that? 23 A: Well, we wanted to get some dialogue 24 going. We were trying to establish or -- or have someone 25 identify themselves as a leader or someone who was the
1101 spokesperson, for lack of a better term, and we -- we 2 hadn't had any success the day prior. So, what we're 3 doing here is talking about different strategies that we 4 could contemplate or consider to -- to stimulate that 5 discussion. 6 Q: And one (1) of them was to get people 7 to go into the Park and hopefully somebody would come up 8 and talk to them, tell them to leave and they might then 9 start to talk to each other? 10 A: Exactly. 11 Q: Okay. Yes. Then there's a note: 12 "Sergeant Seltzer agrees if there's 13 enough support there." 14 And what's that refer to? It's in the 15 middle of that paragraph. 16 A: Correct. I'm just trying to put some 17 context to it here. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I'm not sure what that reference's 22 to, exactly. 23 Q: Okay. Then John Carson stresses to 24 Brad Seltzer that he: 25 "Wants Vince George to be the
1111 introduction guy. have a lot of 2 respect for his read of the people." 3 A: Yes. Vince George knows the 4 individuals involved and he certainly would have the 5 ability to know the different personalities involved. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Again, Sergeant Seltzer talked about 8 keeping Lorne Smith at arm's length. 9 Q: There's a reference to, "cultural 10 things", what's that reference to? 11 A: Oh, I think what he was saying here 12 is that Vince George understood the cultural issues and 13 that he would be able to assist the officers as they were 14 working through any negotiations or any discussions if -- 15 if that was something that would be helpful. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Seltzer indicated we need to keep 18 Lorne Smith at arm's length. No problem with him going 19 to the Reserve, but I think there was some anxiety on 20 Lorne Smith's part about being the spokesperson for the 21 OPP as far as the occupiers of the Park were concerned. 22 So, we wanted to respect that if we could. 23 And, we also wanted to get some sense of how the 24 occupiers were, like, what -- what their -- I've got 25 here, how the other people are feeling as to -- to get
1121 some sense of their anxiety and, you know, what their 2 intentions were and that would help us as we continue on 3 in our planning processes here. 4 Q: Okay. And then, at -- do you 5 remember anything else other than -- with respect to the 6 discussion with Brad Seltzer at this point? 7 A: Well, I've indicated here that 8 Sergeant Seltzer -- I've directed him to have Lorne Smith 9 set something up and Sergeant Seltzer to attend with him. 10 I think what we're referring to here is going over to 11 Kettle Point. 12 Q: Okay. Then, there's a note at 9:09 13 that, I take it you're advised by CRO Archibald that 14 Sergeant Babbitt called stating CBC French carried it 15 live. 16 "John Carson called Sergeant Babbitt at 17 the media post to update him." 18 And, that's referring to the picnic 19 tables? 20 A: Yes, that's the removal of the picnic 21 tables from the sandy parking lot. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And, there's a -- at Tab 25 of the
1131 book of exhibits -- excuse me, book of transcripts, 2 there's a call between you and Sergeant Babbitt at 9:40 3 and -- where you're updating him with respect to the 4 picnic tables and there's no entry at or about 9:40 that 5 I could see, perhaps I missed it, but... 6 A: I believe you're accurate. 7 Q: So that the 9:40 would probably be 8 right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: As disclosed on the -- and it's -- 11 for the benefit of My Friends, it's call number 27 on the 12 list, " "Carson_master_complete_final_without 13 elapse_Rev2?" 14 And, perhaps, My Friends have identified 15 this document, so we don't need to do that again. 16 A: Yes. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 19 20 John CARSON and Sgt. BABBITT 21 22 September 6, 1995 23 TIME: 9:40:13 hours 24 Track 3.wav 25
1141 (Phone ringing) 2 3 MALE: Good morning Darryl SMITH speaking. 4 CARSON: Hi Darryl John CARSON here how are you 5 today. 6 MALE: I'm fine John. 7 CARSON: Good is ah Doug BABBITT ah available 8 there. 9 MALE: He is. 10 CARSON: I've been trying to get him on the other 11 line but I guess ah he's been ten (10) six 12 (6). 13 MALE: Yep no problem just a second please. 14 CARSON: Thanks thanks. 15 BABBITT: Yes John. 16 CARSON: Douglas. 17 BABBITT: Yeah. 18 CARSON: Sorry I've been trying to get back to you 19 ever since you called but I your lines 20 been busy. 21 BABBITT: Yep everybody keeps calling here and. 22 CARSON: Yeah what has happened is we sent a group 23 down there and ah the area you know where 24 the video footage from TV last night was 25 where Brad and ah Mark.
1151 BABBITT: Mark were yeah. 2 CARSON: Okay that area had ah twenty-two (22) err 3 I'm sorry twenty-one (21) picnic tables 4 piled in there with a couple tents that 5 was ah ah pitched on the ah township ah 6 area between the first cottage and the 7 park so you know what I mean. 8 BABBITT: Yeah. 9 CARSON: So if you came down Army Camp Road instead 10 of going on Parkway you just went right on 11 through. 12 BABBITT: Yep. 13 CARSON: In that area. 14 BABBITT: Okay. 15 CARSON: Okay outside of the park. 16 BABBITT: Yeah. 17 CARSON: Okay we removed them. 18 BABBITT: Okay it was so it was on property outside 19 the park. 20 CARSON: Right. 21 BABBITT: Okay um do you know who owned the 22 property? 23 CARSON: It's ah I believe it's county the the coun 24 BABBITT: No I mean the property removed do you know 25 who the tents were and that.
1161 CARSON: No they ah they ran like hell when they 2 saw the CARSON: coming. 3 BABBITT: Oh did they. 4 CARSON: Yeah. 5 BABBITT: We did they why I guess what they're going 6 to say is that they suspect them to be 7 first nations. 8 CARSON: Well they the the people in the tents ran 9 in ran into Ipperwash Provincial Park how 10 how's that. 11 BABBITT: (laughs) Okay and you just removed the 12 picnic tables and the tents. 13 CARSON: That's right. 14 BABBITT: Okay yeah they were given a blow by blow 15 description of this on CBC French. 16 CARSON: Oh what were they saying there? 17 BABBITT: Well ah the the girl said that they were 18 witnessing the police coming in with the 19 ah ah a large truck ah with ah long rifles 20 and ah removing a bunch of ah picnic 21 tables and other items, they just said 22 other items. 23 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 24 BABBITT: They said that French reporter was all 25 excitable.
1171 CARSON: Okay we'll there was a fire grate in there 2 and ah ah the two (2) tents. 3 BABBITT: Okay. 4 CARSON: That's all it was. 5 BABBITT: Well are are we at liberty to say that 6 then if they call. 7 CARSON: Sure sure. 8 BABBITT: Okay. 9 CARSON: And I guess I personally don't think it's 10 enough to get excited about a big press 11 release on it. 12 BABBITT: Okay. 13 CARSON: If they say, if anybody's asks say yeah 14 there was no picnic tables there went we 15 went we took the picnic tables out of the 16 way there so there was so there was ah ah 17 continue to be access on the ah public 18 property. 19 BABBITT: Okay. 20 CARSON: And that's what it is it's public property 21 basically it's it's ah County property so 22 all we did was remove the obstruction on 23 the County property it has nothing to do 24 with the park. It it you know it's not a 25 part of the park itself I is what I mean.
1181 BABBITT: Okay. 2 CARSON: Okay does that make sense. 3 BABBITT: Yeah it does I'll go ah just jot something 4 down and if they call I'll relay that to 5 em. 6 CARSON: Okay. 7 BABBITT: Thanks John. 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 BABBITT: What time did that happen? 10 CARSON: I'm sorry. 11 BABBITT: What time did that happen? 12 CARSON: That was done at ah about eight (8) thirty 13 (30). 14 BABBITT: Okay. 15 CARSON: Yeah okay. 16 BABBITT: Sounds good. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 BABBITT: Thanks bye bye. 19 CARSON: Bye. 20 21 End of conversation. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And then there's as well -- before I 25 go to the next one, if I could take you back to the top
1191 of page 57, there's a note at 9:16. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And can you tell us what that refers 4 to? 5 A: Yes. I inquired of the 6 identification officer, Paul Evans, if a video had been 7 taken. He says there is video, and that two (2) men were 8 there when they did the takedown, and when the team 9 arrived the two (2) men took off. 10 And I indicated to Evans that I wanted to 11 go up in the video -- or go up in the helicopter for more 12 video. 13 Q: Okay. And then at 9:37 there's a 14 note with respect to Les Kobayashi? 15 A: Yes. He came back to the command 16 post, said that Peter Sturdy indicated that it's all 17 patched up with the deputy's office, and there were some 18 concerns. And that refers to I believe the issue of the 19 -- or -- or misunderstanding in regards to the court 20 injunction. 21 Q: And -- and the concerns, do you know 22 what the concerns were? Do you -- do you recall what he 23 said, if anything, about concerns? 24 A: I -- I -- quite frankly off the top 25 of my head, I have no idea.
1201 Q: And then at 9:38 there's a note with 2 respect to helicopters. Can you tell us about that? 3 A: There's -- there's an indication that 4 they wanted communications installed on the helicopter 5 and Les Kobayashi indicated that they can bring another 6 helicopter down and just swap it out for a different 7 helicopter. 8 And Kevin Robson, the technical member 9 from our telecommunications indicated -- he just provided 10 a contact person who could provide the necessary 11 equipment for -- for radio to be installed in the 12 helicopter. 13 Q: And do you know if the helicopter was 14 switched? Was there a new helicopter bring -- brought in 15 or do you know? 16 A: I believe it was but I -- I can't be 17 sure. I -- I know we had a helicopter available to us, 18 but there was a number of issues with helicopters and 19 whether they got swapped, or we kept one longer, I'm not 20 sure. 21 Q: Okay. And then, Kevin Robson advised 22 John Carson that they can make line 1262 an unrecorded 23 line? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what's that about?
1211 A: That goes back to the discussion the 2 day previous I had with Superintendent Parkin and -- 3 about removing the recording capability of one (1) of the 4 lines in the Command Trailer. 5 Q: And was that ever done? You and I 6 have talked about that a couple of times, but... 7 A: I -- I was -- I was advised it was 8 done, but in fact, given the tapes that are available 9 now, I -- I learned many years later that, in fact, that 10 was not the case. 11 Q: Okay. Then, there's a note, John 12 Carson and at that same 9:38: 13 "John Carson would like the ATV's to be 14 at the Park. Mark Wright to get the 15 ATV's down there." 16 And, is that -- what was that about? 17 A: Again, that's for the ATV patrol and 18 when I say, "at the Park," that's to get them down to the 19 TOC site so the officers there could deploy from there. 20 Q: And those were the ATV's you told us 21 about earlier to go down on the beach? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Then, at 9:42 there's a note that 24 Bill Dennis advises that the batons are to arrive at 25 15:15 hours that day?
1221 A: Correct. 2 Q: And at the top of the next page, 3 there's a note: 4 "Ed Vervoort, MNR, advises that twenty- 5 one (21) picnic tables were seized, 6 along with some tents and signs were 7 also taken. Occupants left upon 8 arrival. Currently officers checking 9 videos to identify any people." 10 Then: 11 "Stan Korosec advised there are twelve 12 (12) people heading for the store. 13 John Carson requested that the 14 helicopter attend and take a video. 15 Mark Wright sent Constable Evans down 16 to get video; Ed Vervoort will also 17 attend." 18 And there's a note earlier on in the 19 logger notes that there was twelve (12) tables, can you 20 tell us was there twelve (12) or twenty-one (21) picnic 21 tables? 22 A: My understanding was twenty-one 23 (21)but we're talking about twelve (12) people. 24 Q: No, but if -- the reference is back 25 to earlier on at 49 -- page 49 7:50, where there's a --
1231 it says: 2 "Mark Wright returning drawing to scene 3 twelve (12) tables." 4 A: That's -- that's what it says here 5 and I'm just thinking out loud that maybe it's an 6 interposed type -- typing error, but I know when I spoke 7 to Doug Babbitt on the telephone call, I corrected myself 8 to twenty-one (21) tables, so that's what I would have 9 been of the impression. 10 Q: Now, there's a call that we're going 11 to look at -- two (2) calls in addition to the call at 12 9:40 between yourself and Mr. -- Sergeant Babbitt. 13 There's two (2) calls, call 28 on the Master Complete 14 Sheet and call 29 at 9:45 and 9:49 that are not in the -- 15 in the -- referred to in the logger tape, can you tell us 16 why? 17 A: There's no specific reason that I can 18 share with you other than the fact that I may not have 19 turned to the scribe and say, you know, mark this phone 20 call down. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: Either that or I felt the phone call 23 was, for lack of a better term, nondescript. 24 Q: Okay so -- the call 28 is Tab 26 in 25 the list of transcripts, and that's simply -- well, we'll
1241 -- Mr. Parkin, if you look at it, Superintendent Parkin 2 is -- you asked for Mr. Park -- Superintendent Parkin, 3 and he's not there and you'll note on page 217 that you 4 say: 5 "Carson: I just had one (1) line de- 6 recorded." 7 And at that point in time you thought that 8 the line was unrecorded now? 9 A: That was my belief. 10 Q: And then if we could go to Tab 27 11 which is the actual call with Superintendent Parkin and 12 it's call 21 on the Carson Master Complete List, as I've 13 described it earlier. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 16 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll start again. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 20 21 John CARSON and Anthony PARKIN 22 23 September 6, 1995 24 TIME: 9:49:59 hours 25 Track 3.wav
1251 MCLEAN: Command Post Dave MCLEAN. 2 PARKIN: Dave MCLEAN Tony PARKIN how are you doing 3 today. 4 MCLEAN: I'm good Tony how are you? 5 PARKIN: Not too bad at all. 6 MCLEAN: Good for you. 7 PARKIN: Is Inspector CARSON around please. 8 MCLEAN: Ah yes he is I'll just ah make sure that 9 ah I can use this phone properly and get 10 him to yah. 11 PARKIN: (laughs) okay. 12 CARSON: John CARSON. 13 PARKIN: And how are you now. 14 CARSON: Oh I'm just fine (laughs) just ah I'll 15 give you a little update. Ah this morning 16 we was I telling you we found the picnic 17 tables in the the one area there the 18 township area right right adjacent. 19 PARKIN: Yep. 20 CARSON: We sent ah ah ah trailer and ah truck down 21 there and ah we loaded up the picnic 22 tables and ah we now have twenty-one (21) 23 picnic tables for lunch. 24 PARKIN: (laughs). 25 CARSON: (laughs).
1261 PARKIN: You can host a big party. 2 CARSON: Yeah yeah there was ah two (2) tents and 3 two (2) ah male parties in there who were 4 camping in the ah in the tents and ah and 5 it has like a fire grate from the park you 6 know. 7 PARKIN: (u/i). 8 CARSON: And that was all setup and the ah the 9 tables are setup kind of in a semi-circle 10 like kind of like a barricade protecting 11 them from the roadway and ah when the 12 cruiser came around the corner two (2) 13 guys were running all you could see was 14 dust headed for the park. So so they they 15 disappeared right quickly oh and by the 16 way this line I call you on now has has 17 been changed it's no longer recorded. 18 PARKIN: Oh. 19 CARSON: (Laughs). 20 PARKIN: Okay. 21 CARSON: So (laughs) we don't have to worry about 22 that. 23 PARKIN: Yeah. 24 CARSON: Yeah so anyway ah that ah there is no 25 problems there was no confrontation or
1271 anything there was no no big deal. 2 PARKIN: Oh. 3 CARSON: Apparently ah since that there's been a 4 little activity around the the general 5 store there a little bit and we'll just 6 we're going to monitor that ah 7 helicopter's gone for fuel and ah we're 8 going to go back up and take some ah some 9 ah video footage and ah start you know 10 doing some plotting of ah of the 11 barricades they built and the stuff inside 12 the park just from a planning point of 13 view and it sounds from the MNR's position 14 they're ah they're plugging along with the 15 ah injunction ah affidavit. 16 PARKIN: Um hum. 17 CARSON: But ah it will be some time yet by the 18 looks of it. 19 PARKIN: Yeah ah this morning and I guess you you 20 didn't want to talk too much about it 21 because I was on the ah cell phone. 22 CARSON: Yep. 23 PARKIN: Obviously. 24 CARSON: Yep yep. 25 PARKIN: What what's where where do we sit with the
1281 video ah um you you say one is so they're 2 both there both operating probably? 3 CARSON: Yep they're both running ah. 4 PARKIN: Where are they located? 5 CARSON: Ones in the maintenance shack. 6 PARKIN: Okay now the maintenance shack is that 7 where they broke into? 8 CARSON: Yes. 9 PARKIN: Oh excellent. 10 CARSON: And and ah they're in there and a matter a 11 fact there was ah footage of somebody ah 12 sweeping the floor this ah through the 13 night. A lady in there doing the 14 housekeeping and the other ones in ah the 15 kiosk and and all they get is the odd time 16 somebody passing by it's really not doing 17 anything for us. 18 PARKIN: Yeah but boy oh boy you know. 19 (Background talking). 20 PARKIN: (U/I) and and if we've got probes in that 21 maintenance shack like that could be so 22 critical. 23 CARSON: Yep yep and as soon as we get you know 24 enough to able to light those up that that 25 will be ah very valuable from an
1291 intelligence. 2 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: When you refer to "light those up", 6 that means turn them on? 7 A: Correct. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 10 11 PARKIN: I just I just hope they've got the ah I 12 mean hopefully they're they're well hidden 13 somehow that. 14 CARSON: Yep. 15 PARKIN: Obviously they haven't found them so far. 16 CARSON: Right right. 17 PARKIN: Now the only thing and and I don't know 18 how it's always one of those sensitive 19 issues now that is being rewired back to 20 or monitored back at Grand Bend. 21 CARSON: Yep. 22 PARKIN: And I guess the biggest fear that we have 23 is that somehow that gets out that we've 24 got that in there. 25 CARSON: Okay ah I'll I'll deal with Charlie BOWMAN
1301 specifically about that personally. 2 PARKIN: Yeah yeah. 3 CARSON: Okay and ah I'll ah I'll I'll make sure 4 that that is 5 PARKIN: If that got out on the you know somebody 6 having a coffee in 7 CARSON: Well I 8 PARKIN: a store in Grand Bend. 9 CARSON: I hear yah. 10 PARKIN: Innocent innocently enough but 11 CARSON: Yeah and we talked about that about the 12 whole operation and from the ah with the 13 ERT guys and everything like 14 PARKIN: Yeah. 15 CARSON: You know you stop for a coffee whatever 16 you are the entertainment. 17 PARKIN: Yeah. 18 CARSON: And a people are going to be you know just 19 waiting for any information whatsoever 20 just and up here like everybody's related 21 to everybody up around here. 22 PARKIN: That's right and you just don't know and 23 from an intelligence point of view I mean 24 if we have to go in there I mean that that 25 could prove to just be so invaluable that
1311 we wouldn't know what the hell they're 2 planning. 3 CARSON: Absolutely. 4 PARKIN: You know so. 5 CARSON: Yep yeah I'll handle that other issue. 6 PARKIN: Yeah great. 7 CARSON: Yep. 8 PARKIN: Great now ah any problem or do you have 9 any problem if ah the Chief and I take a 10 drive up there today. 11 CARSON: No no I welcome it come on up. 12 PARKIN: Okay ah what um um I'd probably like to 13 get away fairly fairly soon. 14 CARSON: That's good. 15 PARKIN: Um who's there with you. 16 CARSON: Ah. 17 PARKIN: Like Dave MCLEAN answered like where would 18 we meet with you. 19 CARSON: (U/I) in the Command trailer. 20 PARKIN: Okay. 21 CARSON: Ah I I basically have the ah the 22 conference part of it to myself ah. 23 PARKIN: Like I'd to I'd like to is um is ah Mark 24 there? 25 CARSON: Yep.
1321 PARKIN: Like I'd like to talk to him. 2 CARSON: Yep. 3 PARKIN: And ah you know I just all we just want to 4 say is you know ah hi how are you doing 5 type of thing. 6 CARSON: Yep no I'm sure they'd they'd appreciate 7 that. 8 PARKIN: Okay. 9 CARSON: Yep no I I I'd welcome that sure by all 10 means we'll have the coffee on. 11 PARKIN: Okay so we'll probably be up there I'm 12 gonna say within the hour. 13 CARSON: Yep. 14 PARKIN: By ah you know. 15 CARSON: Yep. 16 PARKIN: Don't hold us to a tight time frame. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 PARKIN: Okay. 19 CARSON: Very good. 20 PARKIN: All right. 21 CARSON: We'll see yah. 22 PARKIN: Bye. 23 24 End of conversation. 25
1331 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Then there's a note at page 58 that 3 at 10:02 with respect to -- can you just tell us what 4 that note is about? 5 A: Yes. "Detective Sergeant Richardson 6 attended the command post and updated 7 me that they were getting a warrant for 8 Dudley George. He was one of the ones 9 that were camping on the parking lot 10 putting him on the system and that 11 Trevor had been in contact with our 12 technical support branch. 13 And he was in -- stressing that safety 14 is an issue. And I indicated to him, 15 make sure we don't burn our officers 16 out that if we need more people, let us 17 know and we'll get additional help if 18 necessary from London." 19 Q: And the reference to TSB, what's the 20 reference to TSB there? 21 A: Oh, that would be in relation to the 22 cameras that Parkin and I had discussed in that 23 conversation. 24 Q: Okay. And when you say "getting a 25 warrant for Dudley putting him on the system" what's that
1341 refer to "putting him on the system"? 2 A: Oh. That's entering him as a charged 3 person on the -- on CPIC which is the national police 4 information system. 5 Q: Okay. And there's another call -- if 6 I could take you back to number -- Tab 24, it's a call at 7 9:11 with -- and it's call number 26 on the Carson master 8 complete list. It's 9:11 -- that doesn't appear as well 9 to be in the logger tape -- scribe notes. And this is -- 10 who is Bob Erskin? 11 A: Bob Erskin is the Detachment 12 Commander of Lucan Detachment. 13 Q: And where is Lucan in comparison to 14 Forest 15 A: It's due north of the City of London 16 and east of Grand Bend. 17 Q: And the concern in a nutshell -- well 18 perhaps I'll just play this. 19 A: I -- I can -- well. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: He called, he -- he was short of 22 police vehicles and he was looking to have at least one 23 (1) of his cars returned to him and basically I just 24 provided direction; he look elsewhere, we're busy. 25 Q: What he wanted was to get his cars
1351 back? 2 A: That's what he was looking for. 3 Q: And there's a note on page 205 of 4 that transcript. Well, you say: 5 "Well we've just mobilized sixty (60) 6 officers for a little operation here a 7 half hour ago." 8 And can you tell us what you're referring 9 to; the sixty (60) officers? 10 A: Well, that was the picnic table deal. 11 I was just -- I was being -- taking a little literary 12 licence just to get him off my back, for lack of a better 13 term. 14 Q: So you -- you didn't have sixty (60) 15 office -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you have sixty (60) officers go 18 down to the -- the -- 19 A: No. There were sixty (60) officers 20 who were still on duty, because we -- we held the -- the 21 evening shift over to be on standby, but there weren't 22 sixty (60) officers assigned to that task. 23 So I -- just trying to avoid a longer 24 discussion, 'cause I had work to do. 25 Q: And he -- and the long and the short
1361 of it, he didn't get his car back? 2 A: No, he did not. 3 Q: Then if -- you did speak to -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're 5 getting close to a lunch time break, you know. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, we can stop 7 anytime, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this is a 9 good time? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, let's 12 stop now. We'll stop for a lunch break now. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 14 adjourned until 1:30. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 12:18 p.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 1:30 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 25 Commissioner.
1371 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: If we might -- at 10:06, there's a 3 note, Brad Seltzer is leaving and it's with respect to 4 negotiation again. Could you tell us about this note, 5 Inspect -- Deputy Carson? 6 A: At the point, Sergeant Seltzer is 7 heading to Kettle Point with Lorne Smith. This is where 8 he's attempting to make some contacts in Kettle Point and 9 I believe in particular they're heading to Bob George's 10 residence. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: At the same time Constable Vince 13 George is making contact with someone in Grand Bend. And 14 there had been some discussion with Brad Seltzer and 15 myself. Brad asked if it was necessary to contact Miles 16 Bressette about going onto the Reserve and I suggested to 17 him that wasn't necessary, this wasn't a call for 18 service. They were just going to interview someone. 19 Q: And that's with respect to the 20 concern that had been expressed by Mr. Miles Bressette 21 about the OPP coming onto the First Nation? 22 A: Yes, that's correct. 23 Q: And you felt that he didn't need to 24 be contacted because you were simply going -- not dealing 25 with an occurrence?
1381 A: Correct. 2 Q: Okay. And you indicated you would 3 deal with it personally if the issue came up? 4 A: Yes. Any -- any -- if there was any 5 concern about it, just have him call me and I would 6 certainly have a discussion with Myles and explain the 7 circumstances. 8 Q: Okay. Yes...? 9 A: Also there was some discussion about 10 Constable George assisting and in regards to introducing 11 somebody at the Provincial Park. And Constable George is 12 agreeable to assist. 13 And he indicated that he felt it was time 14 that -- that we should make an arrest if we can that it's 15 time to demonstrate that there is a plan here. 16 And he thinks it might encourage some of 17 the occupiers to talk if one (1) of their group becomes 18 arrested. And at that point Seltzer left for Kettle 19 Point. 20 Q: All right. Then at 10:20 there is 21 simply -- there's a briefing at the top of page 59 with 22 respect the two (2) members. And the members -- I take 23 it this would have been the night shift members that are 24 now -- who had participated in the -- with respect to the 25 picnic table incident and who are now going off duty; is
1391 that correct? 2 A: No this is a briefing of the 3 management team that are on the day shift crew. 4 Q: Oh, okay. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Can you tell us about this then? 7 A: At the start of the meeting, Stan 8 Korosec indicated that one (1) of the suspects we were 9 looking for, David George, was just inside the fence. 10 And Trevor Richardson gave a -- an update in regards to 11 the crime responsibilities and he talked about the picnic 12 tables blocking the beach and -- or, I'm sorry, blocking 13 the parking lot at the public beach and the processes we 14 went through to remove the tables and that they 15 identified Dudley George as sitting on the picnic table 16 when they arrived there. 17 George Speck had identified him; that he 18 would be charged with mischief and possession of stolen 19 property. 20 Q: And, what was the stolen property? 21 A: I believe it was the picnic tables 22 from the Park. 23 Q: The -- taking the picnic table from 24 the Park to the parking lot was the basis for the stolen 25 property?
1401 A: Possession of stolen property. I 2 believe that's what he was referring to. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Paul Evans, the -- the Ident. Officer 5 and George Speck were going back up in the chopper 6 getting a better look at things today. They were going 7 to work on the Crown briefs around the mischiefs to the 8 cruiser and updating the computer system for that. 9 I indicated if they needed assistance we'd 10 get another administrative stenographer up to assist. 11 And, Richardson had some discussion about 12 some duties Mark Dew was involved with. I believe he was 13 being contemplated to monitor the -- the videos. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: And, indicated that Constable Martin 16 could replace Dew for a few days and Mark Wright 17 suggested that Constable Dan Hernandez do that task and I 18 agreed with that. 19 And, it was just, again, more discussion 20 to have Trevor Richardson contact the Technical Support 21 Branch today and that was just in regards to the video 22 feed. 23 Q: Then, if we could skip down to the 24 note, "Marg Eve?" 25 A: Yes, she indicated that Brad Seltzer
1411 had gone to Kettle Point, Vince George had gone to Grand 2 Bend to meet someone. I indicated that -- well, it's 3 Seltzer and Lorne Smith who had gone to meet or do -- 4 meet some people in the community, in particular, Earl 5 Bressette and Bob George. 6 Q: Bob George is referred to as Nobby 7 George? 8 A: Correct. Again, reiterated that we 9 wanted to Sergeant Eve as the contact person and 10 Constable George to assist as the intro guy; not the 11 official spokesperson. And, what they were going to try 12 and do was determine who their spokesperson actually 13 would be. 14 Bill Dennis indicated that they were 15 getting the cruisers repaired that had the windshields 16 smashed and Ident. were going to vid -- or photos of that 17 damage. 18 Korosec was going to have patrols of the 19 beach area and try and continue some patrols in the 20 evening. The ATV's were on their way; members identified 21 who would operated them. And maps were provided to 22 indicate where they Mayor of Bosanquet lived and -- and 23 provide the information up to the Grand Bend Detachment 24 so that the officers on patrol would do property checks 25 of the -- Mr. Thomas' residence when they could.
1421 Q: Yes...? 2 A: Then, Sergeant Bell gave an update on 3 the intelligence information. And I indicated to 4 everyone that we're going to stay tight on our approach 5 at the checkpoints, again, just checking people as they 6 come in, ensure they need to be in the area, et cetera. 7 Bell indicates the check sheets are being 8 filed alphabetically and that he suggested some of the 9 information -- the intelligence information showed that 10 some violent people may be there. And I suggested to 11 Bell that he check with our Identification Unit to see if 12 we had any photographs on files for those individuals. 13 Richardson indicated that Hubert George 14 had been stopped this morning and indicated to the 15 officer that, You don't know what you're up against, and 16 stated that we are biting off more than we can chew. 17 Q: And who was Hubert George, do you 18 know? 19 A: I don't know a Hubert George. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Mark Wright asked Don Bell if he's 22 checking with the FBI about Larry French and Bell's going 23 to follow it up. 24 I'm not sure what he was looking for on 25 that particular point, and Mark Wright indicated the K9
1431 unit would be coming up and they would be going forward 2 to the TOC site at the MNR parking lot." 3 Q: And I note Mark Wright advised them 4 to pack for a week? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: You thought they would be there at 7 least a week; is that fair to say? 8 A: Well, we were just basically 9 generalizing worst case scenarios so they -- you don't 10 want them to come for one (1) day when you need them for 11 several days, so you tell them to pack for a week, and if 12 you don't need it, well that -- that's a bonus. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And they would be put up with TRU 15 team down at the bunk house in the Pinery Park. 16 Constable Evans had videotaped around the 17 store, believes there's twelve (12) cars in and around 18 that area. Checking the videos. Paul Evans had been up 19 in the chopper. Him and Speck were going back up. 20 Identified more holes in the fence. 21 They're going to try and video that." 22 And I directed that they try and get 23 stills of each point of exit/entry or any indication of 24 any barricades and develop a map of the Park that 25 indicates that.
1441 Q: And Paul Evans had taken these videos 2 from the helicopter? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Staff Sergeant Skinner brought up the 6 hard lines to the second TOC which is the MNR -- MNR 7 parking lot location and I indicated that we needed to 8 address that. 9 Q: And this is the second time Kent 10 Skinner raised that issue. At nine o'clock on -- at page 11 55, he raised the issue of hard lines to the TOC and you 12 had indicated to put it on the back burner for now. 13 Do you know why did Kent Skinner want land 14 lines to the TOC's? 15 A: Well the -- there was an issue -- 16 well, there still is an issue with cellular phone in this 17 area and so if you need to have some communications other 18 than police radio, and we all were carrying cellular 19 phones at that time, the cellular service was very 20 sporadic, particularly in the -- the Ipperwash beach 21 area. 22 A couple of problems. Either there's no 23 reception or the reception bounces over to Michigan or 24 calls aren't received for lack of quality coverage. 25 In fact, that's still an issue today, I
1451 would suggest. 2 Q: And so Kent Skinner wanted a landline 3 for the ERT tactical operations centre and a landline for 4 the TRU tactical operations centre, if it was set up? 5 A: That's what he was looking for, yes. 6 Q: And why did you, as you suggest -- at 7 -- in the nine o'clock entry, it says, "put it on the 8 back burner for now." 9 Why did you suggest it go on the back 10 burner? 11 A: Well the geography of that particular 12 spot, I -- I didn't know if it was going to be possible 13 or not, because there -- to my knowledge, there's no 14 hydro on that lot and the last -- if there's no hydro, 15 there won't be any telephone lines, either. 16 So, it's going to require dropping lines 17 from across the road and running them and it was 18 something we were going to have to look at and I just 19 suggested we just do it later, quite frankly. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: But, he raised the point again and 22 it's a point well taken if you're trying to establish an 23 alternate means of communication. 24 Q: Okay. Then there's a note with 25 respect to Les Kobayashi:
1461 "Advises no helicopter available to 2 come and bring the equipment. 3 Equipment to be relayed to Chatham 4 district headquarters." 5 And that's with respect to what? 6 Communications equipment for the 7 helicopter that... 8 A: That would be my best guess. 9 Q: Okay. You don't know. Then at the 10 top of page 61? 11 A: Yes, I advised the team that there 12 was progress on the Affidavit, that Chief Coles and 13 Superintendent Parkin would be coming up to see how 14 things are going. 15 And I asked if the cottages on Outer Drive 16 had been contacted and Mark Wright indicated there were 17 four (4) officers working over in that area. 18 I shared with them that the Mayor had 19 advised me that the residents were happy with our -- our 20 work, our coverage of that area, but certainly irate 21 about the situation generally speaking. 22 And I shared with them that I had made the 23 Mayor aware of our presence on the beach and the Park in 24 August. And we set the time for the next meeting at 25 12:45.
1471 Q: Then you had a telephone discussion 2 with Inspector Hutchinson at -- it's at Tab 30 in the 3 Book of Transcripts. And on the Carson master complete 4 final list, it's noted as Call Number 32. 5 And Inspector Hutchinson was still -- 6 still in BC? 7 A: Correct. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 10 11 John CARSON and Jim HUTCHINSON 12 13 September 6, 1995 14 TIME: 10:44:29 hours 15 Track 1.wav 16 17 CARSON: Good morning. 18 HUTCHINSON: Good morning. 19 CARSON: How are yah? 20 HUTCHINSON: Well good how are you? 21 CARSON: I'm just fine. 22 HUTCHINSON: And it is it is a good morning here it's 23 an early morning I I can see why the 24 westerners hate the eastern so much eh. 25 CARSON: Is that right.
1481 HUTCHINSON: Because by the time you wake up in the 2 morning half the day is gone and all the 3 news is old news eh. 4 CARSON: (Laughs). 5 HUTCHINSON: (Laughs) The interest rates have been set. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 HUTCHINSON: The dollar has already risen and ah. 8 CARSON: Yeah. 9 HUTCHINSON: And ah Blue Jays have already lost. 10 CARSON: (Laughs) 11 HUTCHINSON: (U/I) just getting out of bed. 12 CARSON: (Laughs) Ah good point that's good. 13 HUTCHINSON: How's things going anyways? 14 CARSON: Well I guess as well as reasonably can be 15 expected ah we ah we had ah we got ah 16 ambushed last night. 17 HUTCHINSON: You're kidding me. 18 CARSON: Yeah the guys ah the the ah natives just 19 outside the park entrance built a big bon 20 fire right on the highway so the ERT guys 21 wheeled down to ah check it out and ah 22 they were ah three (3) CARSON: got 23 bombarded with ah rocks and boulders. 24 HUTCHINSON: Oh is that right. 25 CARSON: Did some damage nobody got hurt just some
1491 damaged cars. 2 HUTCHINSON: And that's the road between the base and 3 right along side the base. 4 CARSON: That's a County road that runs right down 5 from the from twenty-one (21) Highway to 6 the lakefront. 7 HUTCHINSON: Right. 8 CARSON: Yeah. 9 HUTCHINSON: But but runs along the fence of the ah 10 base or from the other side. 11 CARSON: Well well not between the base and the 12 park. 13 HUTCHINSON: Oh is that right eh. 14 CARSON: Like the paved road that goes from 21 15 Highway right down to the lake. 16 HUTCHINSON: Right down to the lake. 17 CARSON: County Road Three (3). 18 HUTCHINSON: Yep. 19 CARSON: Yeah that's that's where that was. 20 HUTCHINSON: Oh Jeez. 21 CARSON: Yeah so then this morning ah there's if 22 you went straight through on that County 23 Road instead of turning down the lakeshore 24 there's a an area where you can park your 25 vehicle and it's a its township property
1501 and ah it's outside of the park proper and 2 they had hauled about ah twenty (20) odd 3 picnic tables out there through the night 4 and set up a couple ah tents. 5 HUTCHINSON: Uh huh. 6 CARSON: And a we went down there with about thirty 7 (30) guys and ah we took the picnic tables 8 and we took the tents and as the cruisers 9 came rolling in two (2) guys were running. 10 HUTCHINSON: Is that right eh. 11 CARSON: Yeah and over the fence they went. 12 HUTCHINSON: Uh huh. 13 CARSON: Yeah. 14 HUTCHINSON: Uh huh. 15 CARSON: So we scooped that so we kind of made a 16 point that there is a line in the sand 17 here. 18 HUTCHINSON: Exactly. 19 CARSON: Yeah so we're got the chopper back up and 20 we're getting more video as to what the 21 activity is now. 22 HUTCHINSON: Uh huh. 23 CARSON: Yeah. 24 HUTCHINSON: Huh. 25 CARSON: So we're plugging along bit by bit.
1511 HUTCHINSON: What's the injunction what's the news on 2 the injunction. 3 CARSON: Well it's being worked on and ah but if 4 you know like anything else it takes it 5 takes a little time. 6 HUTCHINSON: Oh it's taken longer than what we thought 7 then I 8 CARSON: Yeah. 9 HUTCHINSON: I more or less thought that things were 10 ready to go with it eh. 11 CARSON: Well I guess ah the political ah spin 12 doctors were working hard yesterday there 13 so ah you know I I would be surprised to 14 see an injunction before tomorrow quite 15 frankly. 16 HUTCHINSON: Pardon me. 17 CARSON: I'd be surprised to see an injunction 18 before tomorrow. 19 HUTCHINSON: Oh is that right. 20 CARSON: Yeah. 21 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 22 CARSON: Yeah so were just trying to hold the 23 status (u/i) until we get that that paper. 24 HUTCHINSON: Uh hum. 25 CARSON: Yeah yeah.
1521 HUTCHINSON: Well I really I really believe that this 2 thing down there is ah heightened down 3 here you know. 4 CARSON: Really eh. 5 HUTCHINSON: Yeah I do and you know with the same the 6 same lines of ah what's going on. 7 CARSON: Well when they stopped somebody on the 8 road today and I don't know the individual 9 personally but the comment was you guys 10 don't know what you're up against. 11 HUTCHINSON: Yeah yeah. 12 CARSON: I'm getting ah or I'm waiting for a call 13 today for two (2) military ah ah Bisons. 14 HUTCHINSON: Uhum. 15 CARSON: Ah to be I suspect they're painting them 16 as we speak and we've got four (4) guys to 17 be identified to be trained drivers and 18 observers. 19 HUTCHINSON: Okay these are the these are the eight (8) 20 wheeled ones. 21 CARSON: Yep. 22 HUTCHINSON: Without the without the gun (u/i). 23 CARSON: Right. 24 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 25 CARSON: Right so if we can get those arrangements
1531 today we'll send ah four (4) guys up to 2 Meaford for training tomorrow. 3 HUTCHINSON: Uhum. 4 CARSON: So we're as soon as we can make it happen 5 anyway. 6 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 7 CARSON: Yep. 8 HUTCHINSON: yeah they didn't paint the ones out here 9 eh. 10 CARSON: Yeah well. 11 HUTCHINSON: They left them camouflaged and ah and just 12 put the ah the RCMP crests on the side 13 there. 14 CARSON: Yeah. 15 HUTCHINSON: (U/I). 16 CARSON: Well the I know the military are just 17 absolutely paranoid about being associated 18 with this this incident whatsoever. 19 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 20 CARSON: Yeah. 21 HUTCHINSON: Yeah I know that but you know what 22 happened out here it was the fact is when 23 the shots were fired the other night and 24 ah ah so very quickly decisions had to 25 make during the night to bring them up
1541 from ah Kamloops. 2 CARSON: Right. 3 HUTCHINSON: And use them and the fellows had not been 4 trained properly so the decision has to be 5 made for the ah DND to be the drivers. 6 CARSON: Oh oh so they did. 7 HUTCHINSON: So they did the driving. 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 HUTCHINSON: And then there was the press release 10 afterwards and of course our press guying 11 knowing that the plan is in place to ah to 12 for our people to drive them out here ah 13 said no that the Indy was not driving then 14 DND got pissed off because they didn't get 15 on it (u/i). 16 CARSON: Holy Jesus make up their mind. 17 HUTCHINSON: You know so that was the politics that 18 were going on. 19 CARSON: Oh yeah. 20 HUTCHINSON: The fact is they've said here now that ah 21 the statement is here that ah DND will 22 drive it but they're under the direction 23 and the control of the RCMP so. 24 CARSON: Right well I I could live with well I I 25 guess given our relationship with the base
1551 next door I guess if we seem far better if 2 we were doing the driving here. 3 HUTCHINSON: Yep. 4 CARSON: And if if we can make that happen I think 5 we better do that. 6 HUTCHINSON: Yep. 7 CARSON: Yeah. 8 HUTCHINSON: And a 9 CARSON: Ah 10 HUTCHINSON: And even with the painting and that 11 whatever goes on there (u/i). 12 CARSON: Yep well I've ordered I've got somebody 13 going to Transport Branch right as we 14 speak to pick up the stripe kit and ah all 15 the police lettering. 16 HUTCHINSON: Yep. 17 CARSON: Yeah so I'll have have OPP all over the 18 dam thing. 19 HUTCHINSON: Yep okay. 20 CARSON: So it'll it'll be as close to an OPP 21 vehicle Uncle Tom O'GRADY might get some 22 additional equipment he didn't know he was 23 going to have for his kid (laughs). 24 HUTCHINSON: Oh good good maybe maybe he'll be able to 25 use it there on the the opening of ah
1561 Headquarters. 2 CARSON: (Laughs) yeah. 3 HUTCHINSON: When he comes across the lake in the canoe 4 and then ah. 5 CARSON: (Laughs) I just realized we're on the line 6 being taped here by the way (laughs). 7 HUTCHINSON: Oh okay. 8 CARSON: (Laughs). 9 HUTCHINSON: All right (u/i) laughs). 10 CARSON: For sure he's got a sense of humour. 11 HUTCHINSON: Yes. 12 CARSON: (Laughs). 13 HUTCHINSON: No I know but it thoroughly is an 14 impressive sight here you know. 15 CARSON: I'll betcha. 16 HUTCHINSON: It was the media around here they didn't 17 think they were going to get footage of it 18 and it showed the four (4) of them coming 19 up through there you know. 20 CARSON: Yeah well it's on the front ah page of 21 today's paper. 22 HUTCHINSON: Oh is that right? 23 CARSON: Yeah yeah did did ah like what kind of 24 numbers you got out there? 25 HUTCHINSON: Of people.
1571 CARSON: Yeah officers. 2 HUTCHINSON: Well I can't I don't know what's there 3 right now I mean they were with the ERT 4 Teams that were here and ah the estimate 5 that were given to me which I think has 6 got anywhere from fifty (50) to ah one 7 hundred (100) people. 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 HUTCHINSON: (U/I) were controlling the checkpoints but 10 what they did yesterday was call in um 11 about another six (6) ERT Teams. 12 CARSON: Okay what how many is on a team? 13 HUTCHINSON: Ah they have ah ten (10) on a team there 14 and they go through and and and they're 15 called in from all over like they have 16 more resources than we do. They they have 17 fifty-three (53) dogs in in BC alone. 18 CARSON: Holy suffering. 19 HUTCHINSON: And they put a they have a dog with every 20 ERT Team. 21 CARSON: Oh okay. 22 HUTCHINSON: Going all the time and some of them are 23 here now too and they're just getting the 24 right dogs eh. 25 CARSON: Right.
1581 HUTCHINSON: So they're just calling them in from from 2 all over there so 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 5 CARSON: Huh well I I don't know how long this is 6 going to go one here but I I can't see a 7 resolution in the next two (2) or three 8 (3) days quite frankly. 9 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 10 CARSON: I just can't see it. 11 HUTCHINSON: Well that's too bad. 12 CARSON: But I I think I think politically like 13 there has to be a statement made here and 14 if we have to go back and guard trees for 15 a while I think that has to be done but 16 once an injunction is is achieved then we 17 can start some some real strategy. 18 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 19 CARSON: But it's not going to be simple. 20 HUTCHINSON: No. 21 CARSON: But I'll tell you the community the the 22 mayor of the town that this is in is was 23 in here this morning and he had quite a 24 while their press release was headline was 25 Reign of Terror.
1591 HUTCHINSON: Uhum. 2 CARSON: And ah it's I'll tell you in the 3 restaurant this morning people coming up 4 to us and ah like you know one guy says 5 yeah they took the base now they took the 6 park, what's going to be next you know and 7 people are pissed right off. 8 HUTCHINSON: Yeah what town was that the mayor of I 9 heard the quote on the radio out here. 10 CARSON: Bosanquest. 11 HUTCHINSON: Oh okay I didn't yeah I didn't recognize 12 the name. 13 CARSON: Yeah Fred THOMAS yeah. 14 HUTCHINSON: Yeah but it's the same out here I mean 15 people are bringing in big boxes of donuts 16 and ah. 17 CARSON: Yeah. 18 HUTCHINSON: You know they're supporting the guys 19 locally here. 20 CARSON: Good good. 21 HUTCHINSON: Anyways I'm I'm flying out ah this 22 afternoon then. 23 CARSON: You're coming home. 24 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 25 CARSON: Okay.
1601 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 2 CARSON: Well then come on up for a visit when you 3 get here. 4 HUTCHINSON: Yeah well I will do I'm coming up today to 5 like later today to Kamloops and it will 6 take me the full day tomorrow from 7 Kamloops to get back to London and that. 8 CARSON: Right. 9 HUTCHINSON: But they've been in a state of flux here 10 because while I you know while I've been 11 here they've they've moved their command 12 center to ah um Kamloops up here and then 13 they've completely restructed the Command 14 Centre so it's three (3) days of you know 15 just moving equipment and phones and all 16 that sort of 17 CARSON: Yeah. 18 HUTCHINSON: And then going through so. 19 CARSON: Well I'll tell yah ah our planning last 20 week. 21 HUTCHINSON: Uhum. 22 CARSON: Was not one (1) day too soon. 23 HUTCHINSON: No. 24 CARSON: Like ah you know the technician up here 25 worked all weekend you know to do extra
1611 phone lines and those type of things. 2 Like I'll tell you that has been a 3 Godsend. 4 HUTCHINSON: Uh huh. 5 CARSON: Ah cause as far as getting set up and 6 operational like everybody knew from you 7 know the Friday meeting basically what 8 their role was. 9 HUTCHINSON: Uh huh. 10 CARSON: So like it has really gone as smooth as 11 you could expect. 12 HUTCHINSON: Uh huh. 13 CARSON: Ah the only thing would would have been 14 better is if we if we would of done that 15 if we would have had that meeting last 16 Monday instead of on Friday would would 17 have been the only you know give us more 18 time I'm not suggesting I I I'll even 19 suspect though had we done that we 20 wouldn't of been as quick to react and get 21 plans you know. 22 HUTCHINSON: Uh huh. 23 CARSON: People would of you know dragged their 24 feet for a couple of days yeah I've got 25 mine you know yeah okay I'll get around to
1621 it tomorrow, but this way it it's done and 2 ah it's vividly fresh in everybody's mind. 3 HUTCHINSON: Uh huh. 4 CARSON: So I think ah. 5 HUTCHINSON: So things actually things are we're in 6 pretty good shape. 7 CARSON: Yeah yeah I you know I'm pleased. 8 HUTCHINSON: Other than a maybe a little underestimate 9 of a of numbers and action that they would 10 be taking maybe. 11 CARSON: Well yeah like I I I guess the 12 underestimation is that I thought you know 13 being we were in the park we'd be able to 14 stay in their face and side. 15 HUTCHINSON: Yep. 16 CARSON: That's what we weren't able to do. 17 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 18 CARSON: And that's unfortunate and that that 19 really screws up our strategy a bit but. 20 HUTCHINSON: Well yeah. 21 CARSON: But it. 22 HUTCHINSON: And sets up things for what happened last 23 night like you know. 24 CARSON: Exactly. 25 HUTCHINSON: (U/I).
1631 CARSON: Exactly so I don't know how that is going 2 to work out but ah other than that little 3 wrinkle ah I think the the plan is has 4 been quite smooth. 5 HUTCHINSON: Yep. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 HUTCHINSON: Yep. 8 CARSON: Good okay. 9 HUTCHINSON: Okay. 10 CARSON: Well take care. 11 HUTCHINSON: Yeah well I guess I have a couple more 12 routes I can pass on really. 13 CARSON: Ah Tony the Chief should be here shortly 14 they're coming up for a visit just to see 15 how things are going. 16 HUTCHINSON: Well I was going to call him next but he's 17 obviously he's not there. 18 CARSON: Well he'll probably be on a cell phone 19 about now he should be. 20 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 21 CARSON: I expect him to roll in any minute 22 actually. 23 HUTCHINSON: Yeah but anyways. 24 CARSON: But anyway there ah but there certainly 25 been keeping in touch and their
1641 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 2 CARSON: just want to come up and offer some moral 3 support and that. 4 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 5 CARSON: That's fine. 6 HUTCHINSON: Yeah what are their ah like their doing re 7 briefings here this morning because 8 they've brought in more teams and (u/i). 9 CARSON: Yeah. 10 HUTCHINSON: Then they they they are now ah (u/i) to do 11 some sort of patrolling fairly close to 12 the camp with the ah carriers you know. 13 CARSON: Right. 14 HUTCHINSON: Now now they have them up there they've 15 going to use them you know. 16 CARSON: Right. 17 HUTCHINSON: And ah. 18 CARSON: Okay anyway very good, look forward to 19 seeing you get back. 20 HUTCHINSON: Okay. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 HUTCHINSON: Bye. 23 CARSON: Bye. 24 25 End of conversation.
1651 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And if I could take you to page 231 3 of the transcript, Deputy Carson. You're speaking to 4 Inspector Hutchinson with respect to the picnic tables 5 and there's a note: 6 "So we scooped.." 7 You say: 8 "...So we scooped that. So, we kind of 9 made a point that there is a line in 10 the sand here." 11 Do you see that? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And what were you were referring to 14 there? 15 A: What I'm referring to there is that 16 this -- this occupation had moved from the Military Base 17 into the Park proper and that, you know, one of the bi- 18 products of removing the picnic tables that morning was 19 sending a message that they needed to stay in the Park, 20 that coming out of the Park the -- the picnic tables and 21 the camping sites were not going to be allowed to 22 continue. 23 Q: And did -- at this point you'd taken 24 the campsite and the picnic tables, had anyone told the 25 occupiers as of 10:45 on September 6th, that stay on your
1661 -- stay on the inside of the Park and not come out on the 2 sandy parking lot and we're not going to bother you? 3 A: To this point there had been no 4 ability or no one would come out and speak with us. Even 5 as we approached that morning, the two (2) individuals 6 who were at the campsite, ran back into the Park and so 7 there's been no opportunity for such a dialogue to take 8 place. Q: Then there's a note at 2:31 again. 9 You're quoted as saying and it's based on the transcript 10 of the telephone call we just listened to: 11 "Well I guess the political spin 12 doctors were working hard yesterday. 13 There as you know I would be surprised 14 to see an injunction before tomorrow 15 quite frankly." 16 And what are you referring to there? 17 A: I'm referring to the Ministry of 18 Natural Resources what appeared to be the on again/off 19 again issue around the injunction as were they going to 20 get one or not going to get one, whether it's going to be 21 an emergency order or not an emergency order. 22 Just trying to come to some decision of 23 what the direction might be. 24 Q: Okay. And then at page 234: 25 "Caron: Right, well I could live with
1671 -- well I guess given our relationship 2 with the Base next door, guess it -- we 3 seem far better if we were doing the 4 driving here." 5 And there you're referring to the light 6 armoured vehicles? 7 A: Yeah. Correct. The last thing I 8 wanted to be seeing is that -- that we had a relationship 9 with the military such that they were providing personnel 10 support to deal with what was a policing issue. 11 Q: Okay. So, the -- you didn't want to 12 be identified with the military? 13 A: We wanted to have some distance. 14 Q: And, at the top of page 237, you're 15 quoted as saying and you said it: 16 "I think -- I think, politically, like 17 there has to be a statement made here, 18 and if we have to go back and guard 19 trees for a while, I think that has to 20 be done, but once an injunction is 21 achieved, then we can start some real 22 strategy." 23 And, what are you referring to there? 24 A: Well, I think there has to be -- what 25 I'm trying to refer to here -- it's the message that if
1681 the Court sees the Park as properly owned and declares, 2 through a Court Order, that the occupiers be removed, 3 that that will send a -- a message that, you know, they 4 just can't arbitrarily walk into the Provincial Park or 5 other property without having an appropriate land claim. 6 So it's just a matter of getting the force of law to move 7 in there to address that issue. 8 Q: Okay. Then, I note that the call 9 with Inspector Hutchinson is not in the log, and do you 10 have any idea -- do you know why it's not in the log? 11 A: No, sir, not -- there's no -- no 12 particular reason that I know of. 13 Q: And then in the book of transcripts 14 at Tab 31, there's simply a call into the Command Post, I 15 take it, at -- excuse me I said 12:30, I meant 10:48, a 16 call from Sergeant Bouwman to you? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then, you speak to him later on? 19 A: Correct. I believe so. 20 Q: And then, there's a note at 11:02: 21 "Les Kobayashi advised" 22 And, can you tell us about that note? 23 A: Oh, Les Kobayashi indicated that Ron 24 Fox was not aware of the shots that were fired over 25 night, and that he asked that I contact Ron Fox direct.
1691 Q: And, at 11:05 you do that and leave a 2 voice mail message for him? 3 A: I believe so, yes. 4 Q: And, there's a -- at Tab 32 there's a 5 -- simply a transcript of that call, and for the benefit 6 of My Friends, the -- it's call number 33 on the Carson 7 Master Complete Final List at 10:57; I don't intend to 8 play that. 9 And then, at approximately 11:07, although 10 at Tab 33 it's -- it shows at eleven o'clock you speak to 11 Charlie Bouwman? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And that's call number 34? 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 16 17 John CARSON and Charlie BOUWMAN 18 19 September 6, 1995 20 TIME: 11:00:01 hours 21 Track 3.wav 22 23 (Phone ringing) 24 25 FEMALE: Grand Bend OPP.
1701 CARSON: Hi Charlie BOUWMAN please. 2 FEMALE: Just a moment. 3 (background talking) 4 FEMALE: Just one moment please. 5 CARSON: Thank you. 6 (background talking) 7 BOUWMAN: Good morning Staff Sergeant BOUWMAN. 8 CARSON: Yeah Charlie John CARSON here. 9 BOUWMAN: Yes sir. 10 CARSON: How are you doing? 11 BOUWMAN: Not too bad. 12 CARSON: How are things going up there today? 13 BOUWMAN: Oh we're getting along everybody's moving 14 out and going home and packing up and so 15 on. 16 CARSON: Yeah. 17 BOUWMAN: Yeah trying to get lockers finishing up 18 occurrences and getting rid of property 19 and the usual stuff. 20 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 21 BOUWMAN: How are you making out down there? 22 CARSON: Oh fine. 23 BOUWMAN: Fine. 24 CARSON: Yep yep so far so good anyway. 25 BOUWMAN: Oh okay how are they making out with the
1711 ah injunction. 2 CARSON: Ah they're working away on it they're ah 3 they're preparing the paperwork ah they 4 certainly haven't got one yet and ah how 5 that you know how much longer it's going 6 to take to do that I just don' know. 7 BOUWMAN: Yeah. 8 CARSON: Ah at this point in time. 9 BOUWMAN: Everybody hanging in together then. 10 CARSON: Well yeah yeah so all we can do is just ah 11 wait for it and ah it's just going to take 12 time so. 13 BOUWMAN: Yeah yeah. 14 CARSON: But we've got people we have 15 representation on the on that so. 16 BOUWMAN: Oh that's good. 17 CARSON: So that's being addressed. 18 BOUWMAN: Uh huh. 19 CARSON: Um what I wanted ah ah the room there the 20 video room. 21 BOUWMAN: Yep. 22 CARSON: Okay um will you make sure that each and 23 every person in your office I I take it 24 everybody knows what that is. 25 BOUWMAN: Um.
1721 CARSON: Or do they know. 2 BOUWMAN: There haven't been very many in today I 3 think there is only two (2) people working 4 day shift. 5 CARSON: Okay like it like is the is the room 6 closed off like ah. 7 BOUWMAN: There's ah. 8 CARSON: Or is the door open. 9 BOUWMAN: It should be locked no it's closed ah 10 (u/i) in there with the door closed. 11 CARSON: But can people see him in there? 12 BOUWMAN: No no. 13 CARSON: Because ah what what I want to make sure 14 is that people realize the sensitivity of 15 what's going on there is extremely 16 important. Ah if if there's any reason to 17 believe that the officers know what what 18 that is about that they should be each and 19 everyone spoken too specifically by 20 yourself and to you know ah emphasize you 21 know our concern about officer safety and 22 that's why that room is there and ah that 23 you know if if you know if their in a 24 coffee shops or anywhere that we don't 25 want a word breathed to anybody about it.
1731 BOUWMAN: Yep. 2 CARSON: Yeah to the point that ah I wouldn't 3 hesitate in it a a without a word of a lie 4 if they get overheard anywhere talking 5 about it ah the major disciplinary action 6 would be considered. 7 BOUWMAN: Okay. 8 CARSON: Okay and it's an officers safety thing is 9 all it is and and I know like oops like to 10 talk and they think. 11 BOUWMAN: I know. 12 CARSON: You know you know you know what I mean. 13 BOUWMAN: Yeah I I can put a sign on the door too 14 and do not enter and so on. 15 CARSON: Well that's right you know whatever but 16 you know I I like I know I just don't want 17 them you know going in there and (a) 18 bugging ah ah um whats his face ah 19 whoever's in there and and then sitting 20 over at Mr. Mugs there later on and ah 21 talking to each other about you know what 22 they saw in the video. 23 BOUWMAN: Yep. 24 (phone ringing) 25 CARSON: You know that kind of thing.
1741 BOUWMAN: Yeah well there's no reason for them to go 2 in there. 3 CARSON: That's right okay anyway I got a a just 4 just hang on one sec. 5 BOUWMAN: Yep. 6 CARSON: (Background) John CARSON. Okay just hang 7 on one sec. 8 CARSON: Okay anyway I've got another line going 9 here I gotta deal with. 10 BOUWMAN: Okay. 11 CARSON: And Okay. 12 BOUWMAN: Yeah I've got security for your office a 13 boat everything until Sunday you want me 14 to set it up for next week too. 15 CARSON: Well let lets talk about that about 16 Friday. 17 BOUWMAN: Well I'm off Thursday, Friday, Saturday, 18 Sunday. 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 BOUWMAN: Is that a problem. 21 CARSON: No. 22 BOUWMAN: Cause (u/i) will be here. 23 CARSON: No he can handle it. 24 BOUWMAN: Okay. 25 CARSON: He can arrange that kind of stuff.
1751 BOUWMAN: Okay. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 BOUWMAN: Thanks. 4 CARSON: Thanks. 5 BOUWMAN: Bye. 6 CARSON: Bye. 7 8 End of conversation. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And Deputy Carson, if I might, at 12 page 246 is a reference: 13 "We've got people, we have 14 representation on the -- on that so." 15 And who were you referring to there? 16 A: Oh, Inspector Fox is our 17 representative on that committee. 18 Q: And at page 248, the reference: 19 "I've got security for your office, a 20 boat, everything until Sunday. Do you 21 want me to set it up for next week, 22 too?" 23 What's that refer to? 24 A: That's just regard to the marine unit 25 that is being deployed out on the -- the lake and I
1761 believe it's some officers to work at Forest Detachment 2 as well. 3 Q: Okay. Then there's a note at 11:12 4 and we don't have a transcript nor a video -- audio file. 5 6 "11:12 Ron Fox returned John Carson's 7 call." 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Can you tell us what you can recall 10 about that telephone call? 11 A: There was a call that he made to me 12 and he was asking about the gunfire. Apparently, 13 overnight -- in our briefing in the morning there was 14 some commentary about the gunfire that had taken place. 15 And apparently when Les Kobayashi was in our command 16 meeting, he was aware of that, and he reported up his 17 chain into the MNR side. 18 And apparently at the meeting in the 19 morning, Ron Fox -- I had not mentioned that in our 20 discussions earlier, was not aware of that, so he was 21 asking if, you know, what in fact had taken place. 22 There had been some discussion, as I 23 recall, about the fact that, I believe, Les Kobayashi 24 referred to it as automatic gunfire, and that certainly 25 created some anxiety, apparently, as it went up the chain
1771 on the Ministry of Natural Resources side. 2 So what I was doing, or what he was doing, 3 was looking for a verification of exactly what happened 4 so that he could assist with the injunction. 5 Q: And do you know, or did he tell you, 6 that he was calling you from the -- while he was in the 7 interministerial committee meeting? 8 A: I couldn't tell you if he shared that 9 with me or not. 10 Q: And when you called him and left a 11 message, were you calling him about -- what were you 12 calling about? That the gunfire -- as a result of the 13 note by Les Kobayashi? 14 A: Yes. Kobayashi asked me to call him 15 so I -- I'm assuming that, you know, the MNR had picked 16 up some information on -- on their side in regards to 17 Ron's reaction at the meeting, and it's come back down, 18 through Kobayashi, to give Ron a call. And -- and that's 19 an assumption on my part. 20 Q: Then there's a note 11:16: 21 "Military Captain Doug Smith is here to 22 see John Carson." 23 And then there's a note 11:18: 24 "Captain Doug Smith from military 25 arrives in command post to have
1781 conversation with John Carson." 2 Can you tell us about that? 3 A: Well I can only share with you what's 4 in the notes from the perspective that we obviously spoke 5 for the better part -- close to half an hour by the looks 6 of it. And Smith wanted to know if they could be of any 7 help, let them know. 8 And we had a lengthy discussion regarding 9 the issues at the Park, and he left at 11:52. I can only 10 make an assumption that I would have had some discussion 11 with him around the light armoured vehicles as part and 12 parcel of that discussion. 13 And I suspect also the physical plant in 14 the Provincial Park in regards to the water treatment 15 plant facilities. 16 Q: And then while he was there, if he 17 left at 11:52, did Mr. Vervoort come in? Because there's 18 a note at 11:20, Ed Vervoort comes in. 19 A: Yeah. Apparently he provided the 20 information at that time and I do recall there was 21 discussion about a vehicle travelling between the 22 Provincial Park back to the Ipperwash base itself with a 23 -- it was pickup truck, I believe, with a freezer in the 24 back of it. 25 And that had been observed and that was
1791 being shared at the -- at the command trailer. 2 Q: And there's a note: 3 "It took them only sixteen (16) minutes 4 to do it." 5 A: Yeah, correction they -- correct. 6 They -- they had literally timed the vehicle from the 7 time it had left the Park, until it was up at the built- 8 up area of the military base. 9 Q: And then there's a note: 10 "John Carson: Is there a current -- 11 current concern for security? 12 Ed Vervoort advises no." 13 And what's being referred to there? 14 A: I'm not sure what that discussion was 15 about. 16 Q: Okay. And then at the top -- then 17 "going to media of centre to do some 18 reports. John Carson advised meeting 19 is still going on." 20 And is that with respect to Captain Smith? 21 A: I believe the meeting going on is the 22 interministerial meeting, I -- I would suspect. 23 Q: And I note there's no notes from 24 11:20 or 11:52 to 12 -- 14:27. And do you recall when 25 Chief Superintendent Coles and Superintendent Parkin
1801 came? 2 A: Yes. That is approximately the time 3 -- it was -- it was near the lunch hour, I know that. 4 They came in and we had some discussion. What I did is I 5 asked the other members of the team, in particular the 6 scribe, and anyone else who was there, to leave the 7 command post at that time. 8 And there's a -- a folding door, like a 9 soundproofing door that slides across between the 10 communications area and the conference area of the 11 trailer, so that Coles, Parkin, and myself could have a 12 private meeting. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: So for the next while -- well 15 actually it was quite a while, we had a -- a lengthy 16 discussion about the events to date, and the strategies 17 and the issues around it. 18 Q: And there was just -- there was you, 19 Superintendent Parkin, and Superintendent Coles? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And can you -- do you recall anything 22 of -- do you recall any specifics from the -- the 23 conversation? 24 Can you tell us as much as you can 25 remember?
1811 A: Well, what I can tell you is we would 2 have discussed almost every detail around this particular 3 incident, around, you know, the people that had been 4 involved to-date, the -- the issues in the community -- 5 the relationship. 6 I know there was discussion in particular 7 about using Lorne Smith and trying to establish a 8 dialogue and all of that and the challenges with getting 9 the court injunction and -- and all of those issues. 10 It was obviously a fairly drawn out 11 discussion. At one (1) point I offered to send someone 12 out to bring in meals for lunch because it was getting 13 past the lunch hour. And what I had anticipated it 14 being, like, a fifteen (15) -- twenty (20) minute meeting 15 turned into a couple of hours. 16 Q: Okay. And, while you were in the 17 meeting, there's a -- if I could take you to Tab 34 of 18 the transcripts, there was a call from Ron Fox to Mark -- 19 Ron Fox and he asked for you? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And, you were busy so he spoke to 22 Mark Wright? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And, he said that -- one (1) of the 25 things he said at page 250:
1821 "If you could pass on to John that a 2 chap from Legal Services by the name of 3 Tim Egar [E-G-A-R] will contact him and 4 it'll be reference to an affidavit." 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And... 7 A: Now, if I could just -- for a moment, 8 I -- I just noticed that Mark Wright indicated to Ron 9 Fox that there was also an inspector from the RCMP in the 10 meeting. So, the RCMP officer must have arrived in 11 around, was there at the front end of this meeting. 12 Q: And, do you have any recollection 13 today who the RCMP officer was? 14 A: I -- I don't even think I have a --a 15 note of -- of his name or what the rationale for his 16 attending there was. 17 Q: Okay. Then, there's a -- a note on 18 page 251: 19 "Fox: It came up in the middle of an 20 Aboriginal -- 21 Fox: Can you give me confirmation on 22 something? 23 Wright: Sure. 24 Came up in the middle of an Aboriginal 25 issue meeting that I was at.
1831 Wright: Hmm hmm. 2 Fox: Just recently that apparently 3 the media were approached by two (2) 4 people from the location and they had 5 baseball bats and our people were 6 required to take some action. 7 Wright: Well, we heard that stuff, 8 too, and they said they had tape, just 9 apparently, and we just watched the 10 news and that's not what happened, nor 11 have we gotten a report like that at 12 all from our people on the ground. 13 What we -- what happened was, I don't 14 know if John told you about the picnic 15 table incident this morning. 16 Yup. [Fox] Yup. 17 Okay. Because we had heard automatic 18 fire last night out there." 19 And then, Wright says: 20 "And we had two (2) ERT teams go down 21 and remove the tables and one (1) team 22 provided cover and they had ten (10) 23 officers with Rugers at shoulder arms 24 there or port arms, I guess it's 25 called.
1841 Fox: Okay. But we heard that, but we 2 didn't -- so far as we know, we 3 didn't see it on the news and nobody 4 drew down with Rugers on these people 5 because the baseball bats were there, 6 so I don't know what -- where that's 7 coming from 8 Fox: Okay. 9 Wright: Now, I don't know, if the 10 London channel had it because all we 11 got was CKCO but we certainly don't 12 have it and we checked with the guys in 13 the field and they said, no, that 14 didn't happen." 15 And, the -- so that there was no incident 16 as far as your officers were aware of the media being 17 threatened? 18 A: Not that I'm aware of. 19 Q: And, the reference at the top of the 20 page: 21 "We had two (2) ERT teams go down and 22 remove the tables and one (1) team 23 provided cover and they had ten (10) 24 officers with Rugers at shoulder arms 25 there or port arms, I guess it's
1851 called." 2 What's that refer to, sir? 3 A: That's the two (2) ERT teams that 4 loaded the tables onto the trucks. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: And, apparently they had a number of 7 officers there with rifles standing by. 8 Q: And, what's it -- do you know what it 9 means -- the reference -- what it means -- is there some 10 significance, "at shoulder arms or port arms?" 11 A: Port arms just means when they're 12 holding the firearm in a -- across your body and -- and 13 into the air, just -- just standing there in a -- 14 Q: And standing with the -- with the -- 15 with the weapon across your chest? 16 A: Technically, yes. 17 Q: Then at Tab 35 there was a -- I'm not 18 -- there's a call from Mr. Erskine looking for you and 19 there's a problem with respect to one (1) of his 20 officers. 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And that was at 12:13. And if we 23 look at Tab 36, at 11:13:39 there was a call from 24 Inspector Robinson for you and he just left a number for 25 you to call him back.
1861 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then at two o'clock you received 3 a call from Ron Fox; is that correct? 4 A: Yes, it is. 5 Q: And that transcript appears at Tab 6 37, and you were still meeting with Superintendent Parkin 7 and Chief Superintendent Coles at this time? 8 A: Yes, the three (3) of us were still 9 in the conference area of the trailer. 10 Q: That's the back part of the trailer? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And had you given instructions to put 13 Ron Fox through if he called? 14 He's the only one who got through, that's 15 simply why I ask that question. 16 A: I'm not sure why he got put through, 17 but somebody must have indicated that he needed to speak 18 to me. 19 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends 20 this is -- the call is at two (2) -- 14:30 -- two (2) -- 21 at two o'clock. It's Tab 37 in the book of transcripts 22 and it's telephone call number 35. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 25
1871 SK: Sergeant Korosec. 2 RF: Hi. Is Inspector Carson there? 3 SK: Yes. One moment please. 4 JC: Take a message. Can you take a message? 5 SK: Can I ask who's calling please? 6 RF: Yes. Inspector Fox. 7 JC: Hi Ron! 8 RF: Hi John. How you doing? 9 JC: Not bad. 10 RF: Listen, I don't want to bug you. 11 JC: Okay. No problem! 12 RF: Its early. In terms of an injunction 13 JC: Yup. 14 RF: I've just been speaking and I gave you the 15 name of Tim Eager. 16 JC: Eager? 17 RF: Yeah. 18 JC: Okay. 19 RF: Cross that out and make it Tim McCabe. 20 JC: Okay. 21 RF: M-C-C-A-B-E. 22 JC: Uh huh. 23 RF: He's the guy that's putting it together 24 from the AG's department. 25 JC: Okay.
1881 RF: They are making moves towards getting an 2 exparte injunction. In 3 other words one that doesn't have to be 4 served. 5 JC: Okay. 6 RF: What they have to do is show emergent 7 circumstances. 8 JC: Right. 9 RF: And the exigency of the situation are kind 10 of increasing exponentially. 11 JC: Okay. 12 RF: Now of course what comes up in this 13 meeting is about there's been 14 machine gun fire heard. 15 JC: Right. 16 RF: Well, but I Šm not aware of it but I'll 17 check into it. 18 JC: Right. 19 RF: Of course, you know if I get it, then I've 20 got to go back and to the 21 people explain the difference between 22 machine gunfire and semi 23 automatic. 24 JC: Right. 25 RF: We can't tell.
1891 JC: Right. 2 RF: There are weapons, pull the trigger 3 they'll go bang. 4 JC: Right. 5 RF: If you had three weapons doing that it 6 might sound like a machine gun. 7 JC: That's right. 8 RF: I said be that as it may I mean that's a 9 problem. What - what he's looking for is 10 of course they have the affiance all lined 11 up - MNR - who are going to say its their 12 property and here's the deed and all the 13 rest of it. 14 JC: Sure. 15 RF: But they need somebody from a police 16 perspective. 17 JC: Okay. 18 RF: And I said well, you know - I talked to 19 John about it. I talked to Chris Coles and 20 they agreed John's probably the guy to do 21 that. 22 JC: Mmm hmm. 23 RF: Because he has knowledge of it. Now, what 24 of course the political people are really 25 questioning, and that's another story and
1901 I'll just fill you in so you know about 2 that. 3 JC: Okay. 4 RF: But I mean they're pushing to get this 5 done quick. 6 JC: Yes. Okay, I hear you. 7 RF: They're lining up a judge. He is from 8 Lambton County. 9 JC: Okay. 10 RF: Fellow by the name of Gardiner. Does that 11 mean anything to you? 12 JC: Well no. He must be - a different guy down 13 here than when I was 14 posted here. But anyways - 15 RF: Yeah. It didn't mean anything to me 16 either. 17 JC: All right. 18 RF: What they're thinking of is they'll either 19 do their presentation to the 20 judge tomorrow or tonight. 21 JC: Okay. 22 RF: And what they're thinking in lieu of 23 having an affidavit from you - 24 JC: Yes 25 RF: If you'd be willing to give vivosa
1911 evidence. 2 JC: Oh. Appear with Šem. 3 RF: Yeah. 4 JC: Oh. Yeah. Mmmhmm. 5 RF: And I said well - I said I'm sure that's 6 okay for John but I said I've done it 7 myself so I said personally I like to do 8 it. 9 JC: Yes. And I guess I don't have any problems 10 as long as the chief and the Commissioner 11 don't have any problems with that. 12 RF: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I said we'd want to 13 check that out. 14 JC: Yeah, well the chief's here. 15 RF: Yeah. 16 JC: So tell the big guy. 17 RF: Yeah, yeah. We'll go from there. 18 JC: Yeah. 19 RF: Umm, when I'm done can I talk to him or - 20 JC: Absolutely. 21 RF: Okay, well then let me just give you the - 22 I went through this meeting. John, we're 23 dealing with a real redneck government. 24 They are fucking barrel suckers. They just 25 are in love with guns.
1921 JC: Okay. 2 RF: There's no question they don't give a shit 3 less about Indians. 4 JC: All right. They just want to go kick ass. 5 RF: That's right. 6 JC: We're not prepared to do that yet. 7 RF: Well, I'll tell ya. I was then - when I 8 left that meeting I got a page. Go to the 9 Legislative building immediately. 10 JC: Oh. 11 RF: Meet the deputy. Well I went and I finally 12 thread my way through all the media scrum 13 and I meet with the deputy all right. 14 JC: Yeah. 15 RF: Our deputy. Sol Gen. AG. The deputy AG. 16 Chris Hodgson - 17 JC: Oh yeah. 18 RF: Natural Affairs. Ah huh. Ah huh. And the 19 fuckin' premier. 20 JC: Oh boy. 21 RF: Well, John I'm here to tell you. This guy 22 is a redneck from way back. 23 JC: (laughs) 24 RF: And he came right out and said, I just 25 walked in on the tail end of this. The OPP
1931 in my opinion made mistakes. They should 2 have done something right at the time. And 3 he said that will I'm sure all come out in 4 an inquiry sometime after the fact. 5 JC: Yeah, yeah. 6 RF: He believes that he has the authority to 7 direct the OPP. 8 JC: Oh! Okay. 9 RF: So -- 10 JC: I hope he talks to the Commissioner about 11 that. 12 RF: Umm pardon me? 13 JC: I hope you and the Commissioner had that 14 discussion. 15 RF: Oh, yeah. Well of course the 16 Commissioner's already brought into the 17 loop on this. 18 JC: Okay. 19 RF: So in any event, he makes a couple wild- 20 ass comments, gets up and leaves the room. 21 And then the Sol Gen asks me to brief them 22 as to what changes in the status 23 [inaudible] of the situation. Alright I 24 said well, I've been talking to the 25 incident commander, and I am able to
1941 confirm that there were shots overnight I 2 said somewhere between fifty to a hundred. 3 And this is automatic weapons is what - 4 machine guns - is what this Chris - and I 5 said its possible it could be. I said that 6 there's certainly no evidence to support 7 that. I said between fifty and a hundred 8 rounds - it could have been a semi- 9 automatic. 10 JC: Right. 11 RF: And I said there's no evidence they were 12 pointed at anybody. 13 JC: Yup. 14 RF: They were not used in an untoward fashion. 15 JC: Right. 16 RF: So in any event, to make a long story 17 short, this guy went over [inaudible] and 18 I finally said well look. I said that with 19 respect, this is a property dispute. I 20 said what we're gonna see at the end of 21 the day is a disused provincial park, 22 closed for the season, okay, and - 23 JC: Yip. 24 RF: We're also then going to see is people who 25 have been involved in mischief. Yes. The
1951 police know what mischief is and certainly 2 those folk in the AG we know about the 3 criminal offense mischief. Once read in 4 the newspaper, it sounds like stuff our 5 kids get involved in. 6 JC: You got it. 7 RF: You know what the prick says to me? Well 8 I've just been told that I can have no 9 influence over the police doing their jobs 10 so I'm suggesting you let me worry about 11 the political ramifications. 12 JC: Oh. 13 RF: So I - I can't hold my tongue. 14 JC: Okay. 15 RF: I thought this little prick - I've got 16 shoes older than you. And I said look - 17 all due respect - Minister - I said I'm 18 not - 19 JC: (interrupting) Is that Sol Gen? 20 RF: Hmm? 21 JC: The Sol Gen? 22 RF: No, no, no. This is the Minister of 23 Natural Resources. 24 JC: Oh, oh. Oh. Okay. I gotchya. 25 RF: Now I said with all due respect Minister I
1961 said, here's the reality. That's the way 2 its viewed and I said perhaps, perhaps we 3 can survive the political backlash. I said 4 it may be that John Carson and his people 5 will be able to work magic and these 6 people will simply walk away. And abandon 7 their position. And I said I doubt it. 8 JC: That ain't gonna happen. 9 RF: And I said my guess is we're going to get 10 a bloody nose. Or somebody is. And I said, 11 at the end of the day - if you're prepared 12 - that's up to you. I am not making a 13 political statement. I am giving you a 14 bite of reality. Okay. He looked at me. Oh 15 the prick! Fuck! 16 JC: Jesus Christ! Well, I'm glad you're there 17 Ronald. 18 RF: I mean I - I - you don't back away - let's 19 just do the bloody job right! 20 JC: Yeah, exactly. 21 RF: Well, even if we get this enjoining order. 22 Like how long will the police sit on it? 23 Two weeks? He said I was told the police 24 knew about this before it happened. And I 25 said that's not correct. Well he said
1971 that's my information. I said, with 2 respect its wrong. I said the police 3 certainly had a supposition that a logical 4 next step for these protesters was to 5 takeover the Park, and I said in fact I've 6 had discussions with the incident 7 commander about that. But I said did we 8 have anything to base that on, other than 9 the odd little threat and innuendo that 10 came up - no. What we did, is we based 11 that on our knowledge of native people. 12 JC: Right. 13 RF: And this was the likelihood. 14 JC: That's right. 15 RF: And I said there was a contingency plan in 16 place. Well then he got into well why 17 didn't the police stop it... 18 JC: (laughs) 19 RF: ...I understand they were at the Park 20 there at the time. And I said really? Well 21 I said let's put that in perspective, 22 shall we? I said how does one stop that 23 from taking place? Given at that time of 24 night there'd be limited police resources. 25 And I was -
1981 JC: Well there was - there was 8 ERT guys. But 2 they were just overwhelmed! 3 RF: John, if there was 108 or 210 I guess 4 they'd be overwhelmed. 5 JC: Well, you're right. 6 RF: Its an exponential thing. 7 JC: That's right. 8 RF: These people have absolutely no 9 [inaudible] 10 JC: For sure. I can appreciate it. 11 RF: We're in for some tough sledding! Anyways, 12 I guess the upshot is -- 13 JC: Yes 14 RF: What Larry Mc- what Tim McCabe is asking 15 me is in your opinion, 16 can we say with certainty to a court that 17 there is a need for an emergent order - 18 that makes it an exparte order. 19 JC: Well, I think we can. 20 RF: Yes. 21 JC: I think we can. 22 RF: [inaudible] base that John, on the 23 progression of events. 24 JC: That's right. 25 RF: Yeah.
1991 JC: You know, and I'm prepared to appear and 2 give that evidence if the chief and 3 Commissioner feel that's the direction we 4 should be going and I don't see any reason 5 that we can't support that. 6 RF: No, well I've done it before, with 7 injunctions on strikes. 8 JC: Right. 9 RF: So I mean I don't - I'm sure they 10 wouldn't. 11 JC: All right. 12 RF: Personally, I like to give the evidence in 13 person 14 JC: Yup. 15 RF: Because you know what I'm saying - we can 16 lead them. 17 JC: Right. Okay. 18 RF: So that's it in a nutshell. 19 JC: Good. 20 RF: I'll call him back. Well - 21 JC: Yeah. The Chief's here if you want to talk 22 to him here. 23 RF: Yeah. 24 JC: Okay? 25 RF: Okay John.
2001 JC: Thanks Ron. Let me know. 2 RF: Right. 3 JC: Okay. 4 RF: Right. 5 JC: Take care. 6 RF: Bye. 7 CC: Hi Ron. 8 RF: Hi Chief. 9 CC: Yeah. I guess sitting here just listening 10 and I haven't heard what John has got to 11 tell me now. I've got a concern that we 12 want to be careful what we're doing here 13 that we don't give them - the people that 14 you're talking to - that we don't give 15 them the information too fast. The problem 16 with that Ron is that if you're not 17 careful, you're gonna run the issue there. 18 As opposed to myself and the Commissioner 19 running it here. So we've got to be 20 careful. I have no objections to it - I 21 have no objections to you phoning John but 22 the only trouble if not, you're going to 23 be the fastest source of information 24 they've got. And now with them we're going 25 to end up in it, we're going to end up
2011 running it politically. And I don't want 2 that. 3 RF: Yes. 4 CC: Because its dangerous if you think about 5 it. 6 RF: Yeah, well - 7 CC: Because they're gonna - they're gonna ask 8 you questions. You're going to try to find 9 the answers. And the quickest way for you 10 to do it is to come here to John. John's 11 going to give you an honest answer. The 12 trouble is now is all our - all what we 13 are doing here - sometimes too much 14 information is a dangerous thing. 15 RF: Oh well clearly it is Chris. And you know, 16 I don't know if you've heard from somebody 17 else, maybe you have, and that's why you 18 and I are having this conversation... 19 CC: No, this is just off my head. The last 20 time I talked to you I heard (?), the only 21 thing I've talked - the only person I have 22 talked to - on this - is Tony. And I told 23 John as far as Marcel Beaubien it looks 24 good. That's pretty well all I've got on 25 this.
2021 RF: Okay well where the majority of 2 information comes that's provided 3 to political masters is coming from MNR. 4 CC: Yup. 5 RF: Okay. And I'll tell you I've not been too 6 impressed with it. 7 CC: (interrupting) Ron don't be, don't be. 8 I've dealt with them three times on three 9 incidents and do not be impressed with 10 MNR. 11 RF: Well. See I mean that's the beauty of 12 having me there. I can say I don't know. 13 CC: Yeah. 14 RF: Well this guy here, Peter Sturdy, was 15 getting fed by people who were there. 16 CC: Yup. 17 RF: And of course it came up in the meeting 18 about the automatic weapon fire, and you 19 know, they're doing damage. There's heavy 20 equipment rolling around at night. And 21 they're - 22 CC: (interrupting) That's the trouble. And 23 they're going to react to that kind of 24 stuff. And it's the same thing I just told 25 them here. It might - you see my position
2031 is - and now I can't do it - my position 2 is just been here some half an hour ago is 3 Mark you downplay all the heavy weaponry. 4 Because I'll have the fuckin' Safety and 5 backup issue myself here. And it was the 6 same as I had at Aquasasney (sp?) - 7 everybody said there was automatic guns 8 going off all of the friggin' time. And it 9 wasn't. It wasn't. It was just semi- 10 automatic. Its just - they were just 11 pulling ?? triggers. But if you have three 12 or four guys shootin' - nobody knows the 13 difference. 14 RF: Well that's what I said today. There's no 15 evidence that there are automatic weapons. 16 I said certainly there was the sound of 17 gunfire and I said I mean that's - that's 18 a qualified observation. But it could be 19 semi-automatic. We don't know. There's no 20 indication that the weapons were pointed 21 at anybody. Okay? 22 CC: Yeah but there you see - there's 23 conversation - as far as I'm concerned 24 there's conversation going there that's 25 operational.
2041 RF: Oh yeah. 2 CC: That - that really - its gonna get 3 dangerous Šcause now its - that's 4 dangerous to have that happen. 5 RF: Mmmhmm. You're right. But you see then, 6 what do I do with it Chris? Sit there and 7 say well I don't know. Ummm - you know - I 8 mean - the best is to give them then what 9 little information you can. 10 CC: Well, stall them to the amount. I mean 11 right now I know that the Commissioner is 12 umm resurrecting the old - what has always 13 been our approach, because he feels he's 14 now going to start getting some pressure 15 with people saying why arenŠt you acting? 16 Why aren't you acting on this now? 17 RF: He's already - He's already got it Chris. 18 CC: Sure he has and so he's trying to 19 resurrect the?? of why we go in for 20 injunctions. And of course the reason we 21 go for injunctions is because otherwise we 22 go into provincial offenses and we give 23 them a ticket and they don't give a shit 24 about the stuff. And we want some kind of 25 court conditions on these people. One of
2051 them being that maybe - you know - if we 2 can that we don't want them to go back 3 within a mile of the base, etcetera. 4 RF: Right. 5 CC: You know, those kinds of things. 6 RF: Right. 7 CC: So, all I know - this just - this just - 8 and now I'm glad I talked to you because 9 this just went through my head. I mean I'm 10 hearing you talk to John - I have no 11 problem with that and John I know will 12 fill me in on what's going on. But then my 13 point is - we the OPP - its like me 14 talking to Marcel Beaubien - which I'm 15 supposed to do because he is a constituent 16 and that. But however, he now goes and 17 talks. And this is where - this is a 18 problem that we have. 19 RF: Well. 20 CC: You know I - my ?? is I will call the 21 Commissioner. I don't know if he's there 22 but I'll call Boose's office anyway and 23 say you better get to the Commission to 24 say be very careful here. ŠCause that's 25 what's going to happen. We're going to
2061 lose control of it. 2 RF: Mmmhmm. Well - 3 CC: Do the best you can. That's all you can 4 do. And I have no problem with you calling 5 John because I know and - but that's it. 6 Just make Šem step back. If - you may be 7 the - what they might do is bring up every 8 rumour for you to substantiate every 9 rumour and then in fact what you do is you 10 ??? 11 RF: ?? but I don't fall into that trap. 12 CC: But that's what you have to be careful of 13 though- that you don't. 14 RF: Yeah. Yeah well I guess... 15 CC: I think you know where I'm coming from. 16 RF: Oh, I do Chris. But I guess you - what I 17 want to do is just tell you some more of 18 what's gone on here. 19 CC: Okay. 20 RF: So that you know. I was called to meet 21 with the - the Deputy Solicitor General 22 over at the legislature. 23 CC: Yup. 24 RF: And I walked in. And there was the deputy 25 Solicitor General and the Sol Gen and the
2071 AG. And the Deputy AG. And Hodgson, the 2 Minister for MNR. And the Premier. 3 CC: Okay. 4 RF: Okay? The Premier was quite adamant that 5 this is not an issue of native rights and 6 in his words - I mean we've tried to 7 pacify and pander to these people for too 8 long. Its now time for swift affirmative 9 action. I walked in the tail end Chris of 10 him saying something like well I think the 11 OPP made mistakes in this. They should 12 have just gone in. He views it as a simple 13 trespass to property. That's in his 14 thinking. He's not getting the right 15 advice. Or if he is getting right advice 16 he sure is not listening to it in any way 17 shape or form. 18 CC: Okay. 19 RF: The fellow who supported our position the 20 best was the Deputy Attorney General. 21 Larry Taman - 22 CC: (interrupting) Ron - give me your phone 23 number there. 24 RF: Yup. 25 CC: I'm going to give you a phone call. Hang
2081 on here. Give me - what's your phone 2 number there. I'm going to call you back 3 from another line. 4 RF: Yup. 416 5 CC: Yup. 6 RF: 314- 7 CC: Yup. 8 RF: 3372. 9 CC: Yup. Don't get involved in anything else. 10 I'm going to give you a call back. 11 RF: All right. 12 CC: Okay. Thanks. Bye-bye. 13 14 End of Conversation 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And, Deputy Carson, there is a couple 18 of -- on the transcript at Tab 37, there is a coup -- 19 excuse me, at Tab 37 there's a couple of typographical 20 errors at 2:59 -- page 259 where Mr. Fox says, "they're 21 making moves towards getting an ex parte injunction and-- 22 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, I wonder 23 if I might suggest if we play that tape again. Given the 24 complexity, and number of issues, and the speed at which 25 it comes, I wonder if the whole might not benefit from
2091 another playing? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 3 -- I would think -- 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm sorry the 5 vent's now on and I -- we can't hear at the back, the 6 submission of Mr. Orkin. 7 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Sorry, Commissioner, 8 Mr. Falconer just repeated my point for me. Through much 9 of that tape -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he 11 said he didn't hear you. He didn't say he didn't hear -- 12 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- the vent was 13 playing, and I'm suggesting we play the tape again. It 14 contained an -- an enormous number of issues, they came 15 quickly and the -- and it -- it's not an uncomplex piece 16 of audio material. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm in your hands, 19 Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 21 sure. All Counsel have a transcript of it, the media 22 have a transcript of it. For who's benefit would we be 23 playing it? It's on the live feed for everybody out 24 there to see now. I'm not sure who has to hear it again. 25 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Well, Commissioner,
2101 that -- that -- that is actually my point. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What is? 3 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Including about the 4 live feed. I think the majority of people, with the 5 exception of a handful of people in this room, have never 6 heard this tape before. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I... 8 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: And, this is a Public 9 Inquiry, and we've just heard a piece of evidence of 10 enormous import -- of obvious importance, so that is my 11 submission. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Play it again? I have 13 no difficulty with that. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't have 15 any difficulty. We've -- 16 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Perhaps switch the air 17 conditioner off. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 19 to take a break. So, why don't we play the tape then, 20 and then take a break. And then you can comment on it -- 21 or do you want to comment on it, and then we'll play it 22 again? Why don't you straighten out the points that you 23 want to straighten out. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, there's -- on 25 this transcript, the transcript that -- we have another
2111 transcript that I'd provided to My Friends that don't 2 have these errors, but on this transcript at page 259, 3 there's: 4 "Mr. Fox: They're making moves 5 towards getting an ex parte injunction 6 [in other words, it should be]" 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then, down the 9 page: 10 "Fox: The exigencies [it should be] 11 of the situation are kind of increasing 12 exponentially." 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where's -- 14 yes, exponentially, right. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Then, there's -- on 16 page 260, Mr. Fox, at about the middle of the page -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Affiance. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- affiance instead of 19 affiant. Then, there is a -- at the page 263, I think 20 Mr. Fox said at the -- the one (1) -- the third Fox 21 entry: 22 "Meet the Deputy. Well, I went and I 23 finally ferret my way." 24 It says, "unintelligible," but I think 25 it's "ferret".
2121 And then, on page 264, the fourth entry 2 down, Mr. Carson, it's -- the reference is: 3 "I hope he'll be talking to the 4 Commissioner about that." 5 Not, I'll be talking to the 6 Commissioner about that. And -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 8 don't get that one -- I hope he'll be... 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: right. 11 Okay. All right. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, the next Carson 13 entry it's -- as well and I don't have my September 6th 14 transcript with me, but it's again, I hope -- it's not, 15 I'll be doing something, it's he'll -- I think it's he'll 16 have to -- he'll have to speak the Commission to have 17 that discussion, but it's not, "I'll" at that point and 18 I'll clarify that. 19 Then, Mr. Fox, on page 265, the third line 20 it -- it's a disused Provincial Park closed for the 21 season. 22 At page 266, Mr. Fox, again at the top of 23 the page, and it says in the last line: 24 "Abandon our position." 25 It should be, "Abandon their position."
2131 Mr. Fox -- at the last entry on that page 2 for Mr. Fox, in the first line: 3 "If we get this, enjoining [instead of 4 adjoining]." 5 Again, page 267, Mr. Fox, fifth entry 6 down: 7 "You know if it's -- if it's an 8 expotential thing [instead of 9 exponential]? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Expotential. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then, Fox -- I 12 didn't quite catch it, and I don't have the other one 13 with me, but in the second line -- the second last Fox 14 entry: 15 "Larry McKeird" 16 And then, he said, "Tim McCaid." I don't 17 know what was there for McKeird. 18 And, perhaps I have no objection to 19 playing this again, but what I suggest -- I would like to 20 ask some questions. Before we break this afternoon we 21 could play it, but I would like to ask Deputy 22 Commissioner Carson some questions we -- before we break 23 so that I'll play it again -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- but then I would
2141 like to ask him some questions before we have the 2 afternoon break. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, do you 4 want to ask the questions now, and then we'll play it and 5 break, or the other way around? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll play it and then 7 I'll him the question. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But I'd like to do 10 that before the break. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Henderson 13 pointed out -- I'd caught that when I missed that, but 14 Mr. Henderson points out at page 274, well, actually the 15 -- at page 273 Mr. Coles the, one (1), two (2), three 16 (3), fourth entry down, I -- you know I -- my comment, it 17 should be. 18 And then over on 274, it's the second 19 entry "Fox", it should be "and a Hodgson", where it says 20 "unintelligible", it's "Hodgson". 21 So, we'll play it again, sir. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT ABOVE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
2151 Q: And before we start, My Friend, Mr. 2 Scullion said at page 273, the third page from the 3 bottom, third Fox entry from the bottom: 4 "Well, I don't fall under that trap". 5 It says "crowd", it should be "trap". 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT ABOVE) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 10 Millar? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's just a couple 12 of other small errors that I'm going to try to correct as 13 we just -- as we go. And on page 260 the, one (1), two 14 (2), four (4), fifth entry for Mr. Fox, the one where we 15 made the change about "affiance" to "affiant" or 16 "affiants all lined up" at the bot -- at the end of it, 17 it says: 18 "You know all the rest of it" 19 And then in the small copy of the 20 transcript that has been provided to My Friends and 21 others, on the page 3, at the third line up, it says: 22 "R.F. Ron Fox: If you'd be willing to 23 give..." 24 It says "...viva voca"; it should be "viva 25 voce", V-I-V-A new word V-O-C-E.
2161 Then, I make a correction on page 263. 2 The third entry for Mr. Fox, it should be "and I finally 3 thread my way", I said "ferret", but I -- I heard it the 4 next -- this time, it's "thread". 5 And on page 264, the correction should be, 6 as I've said before with respect to Mr. Carson, the 7 fourth entry for Mr. Carson, 8 "I hope he talks to the Commissioner 9 about that." 10 And then the second -- the next Carson 11 entry down: 12 "I hope he and the Commissioner have 13 that discussion." 14 Then on page 265, Mr. Fox, the entry about 15 the disused park which is the third entry down; it should 16 be "is a disused park". 17 The -- I mean the second entry down, "is a 18 disused park". The third entry, Mr. Fox on that page, 19 265, the second last line is... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think it should be, 24 "one reads in the newspaper". 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry,
2171 where is that? 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no, it should be, 3 "once read in the newspaper"; that's -- I've made that 4 correction before. The -- Mr. Fox -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- page 265, the 7 fourth line down. I believe it should be, "once read in 8 the newspaper." 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I still 10 haven't found that entry. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Pardon me? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 265, 13 the fourth -- 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 -- the one (1), two 15 (2), third entry down. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: For Mr. 17 Carson or Mr. Fox? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Fox. It says: 19 "And what we're going to see -- then 20 see is people who have been involved in 21 mischief." 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And the -- in that 24 paragraph, the fourth line down -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see it
2181 now. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: "Once read in the 3 newspaper." 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now -- then on page 6 268, the first Fox entry it should: 7 "On the progression of events", not 8 "event". 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And page 273, Mr. 14 Coles, fourth entry, where it says, "commissions", I 15 think it should be "commissioner". 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Now, Mr. Car -- Deputy Carson, the... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: You're referred to at page -- at the 25 bottom of page 260, excuse me, the bottom of page 262,
2191 the top of page 263. 2 There's an entry: 3 "All right. [you say] They just want us 4 to go kick ass. 5 Fox: That's right. 6 Carson: Yeah. 7 Fox: Hmm hmm" 8 It's on -- top of page 263. 9 "Carson: We're not prepared to do 10 that yet." 11 And what did you mean by that, sir? 12 A: Well, I was just pointing out to 13 Inspector Fox that despite the various opinions that may 14 be at play here, that we had no intention of going into 15 that Park, that -- the long and the short of it is, until 16 such as we had received the appropriate injunction, that 17 simply wasn't going to happen. 18 Q: Okay. And that was a decision that - 19 - who could make that decision as to what would happen 20 with the Park? 21 A: Well, technically it's my decision. 22 As the incident commander, none of the troops on the 23 ground are going to -- to take any action until they get 24 direction from the incident commander. 25 I -- I report directly through
2201 Superintendent Parkin and Chief Coles. Before anything 2 like that would have happened, I would certainly have had 3 some discussion or there would be some concurrence of 4 direction on an incident like this. And I think, you 5 know, you can -- you can draw from some of the discussion 6 here that Coles, Parkin and I have all had some 7 discussion in -- during this time period around this 8 whole event. 9 And I think it's pretty clear from all of 10 us that we clearly understand that the injunction 11 approach, even -- although it's not my testimony, Coles 12 commentary about the Commissioner referring to some 13 information we had as that is the way we deal with these 14 kinds of issues. 15 Q: Okay. And, before I go on and ask 16 the next question, at page 264, I don't know if I 17 corrected this one, it's the fifth Carson -- the fourth 18 Carson is: 19 "I hope he talks to the Commissioner 20 about that." 21 Then the next Carson: 22 "I hope he and the Commissioner have 23 that discussion." 24 And, on the afternoon of September 6th or 25 the evening of September 7th -- I mean the evening of
2211 September 6th at any time prior to the shooting of Dudley 2 George, were you given any instructions by -- were your 3 instructions with respect to the injunction changed? 4 A: No, sir. Later on that afternoon I - 5 - I did get a phone call from a Mr. McCabe that afternoon 6 and I had made arrangements for Detective Sergeant Wright 7 actually to attend a hearing the following morning to 8 provide viva voce evidence in regards to the application. 9 The only person -- I -- I had no direction 10 from anyone; the only person from a political perspective 11 that I had any discussion with, particularly at a 12 provincial level was later on in the afternoon, Mr. 13 Beaubien did attend the Command Post, but I think what 14 you will see is Mr. Beaubien attend the Command Post. 15 There was some discussion around the 16 concerns in the community that -- as a result of the 17 concerns he brought forward on behalf of his Constituents 18 that I, in fact, went off duty at that point in time; I 19 went to a private residence. I was -- had made 20 arrangements to meet Mark Wright later on after dinner to 21 have some discussion about the evidence that he would be 22 providing the next morning. And eventually I was 23 summoned and I returned back to the Command Centre. 24 Q: The plan at the time and the time -- 25 and we'll get to that later, but at the time you went off
2221 duty was that before the OPP did anything, the MNR had to 2 have an injunction? 3 A: We -- that has been our position from 4 the outset, that continued to be our position and we were 5 proceeding with that direction. 6 Q: And, the -- with respect to these -- 7 this telephone call, you've heard the references on the 8 telephone call to the Premier and to the Ministry of the 9 Attorney General, to the Minister of Natural Resources, 10 to the Solicitor General, the Deputy Solicitor General, 11 the Deputy Attorney General. What, if anything, did you 12 do as a result of this call? 13 A: Quite frankly, nothing. If -- if I 14 could, just in relation to this call, if -- if I could 15 just refer you to the notes I made about the call? I 16 don't know if that would demonstrate -- 17 Q: Certainly. 18 A: -- some of the impact that the call 19 had. In regard to this call, as I alluded earlier, the 20 scribe was asked to leave the room, so I took a steno 21 pad, which is the original one of the time, I have with 22 me right now and indicated at 14:10 Ron Fox and the notes 23 I made in regard to Ron Fox's call is this: 24 "Ex parte injunction not served. 25 Machine gun fire? Judge Lambton
2231 Gardiner tomorrow or tonight. Meeting 2 at Leg. Building, Deputy Boose, Sol. 3 Gen. and Premier..." 4 And quite frankly, my note about Deputy 5 Boose was the wrong Deputy. 6 And that was the note I made in relation 7 to this discussion. Quite frankly, the commentary that 8 Ron Fox goes into in regards to his meetings, in my 9 humble opinion, is the -- a matter of -- of personal 10 discussion that he was sharing between someone. I would 11 suggest that not only were we colleagues, we were 12 somewhat friends from over the years, was -- was more a 13 blurting out of frustrations as a result of the task that 14 he was assigned to. 15 And quite frankly, all of that discussion 16 that he shared with me in regards to his meetings, they - 17 - they really lacked importance to the degree that I made 18 no note of it. 19 Q: And, in fact, is it not correct that 20 you -- in the -- the scribe note, itself, there's no note 21 of the telephone conversation with Mr. Fox? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: At the 14:27? And, the -- when -- 24 the note that you're referring to is -- can you tell me - 25 - I'm -- I'm looking at Exhibit 410 at page 54 and 55 and
2241 I'm trying to find the note that you referred to as 2 having. 3 Is it the note at page 55 referring to Ron 4 Fox? 5 410, sir, is the photocopy of your 1995 6 and 1996 notes? 7 A: Yes, I'm just trying to locate it 8 here. At page -- 9 Q: Fifty-five (55). 10 A: Thank you. That's correct that's the 11 page I'm referring to. 12 Q: And, it says: 13 "September 6th/'95 14:10, Ron Fox, Tim 14 [then] Egars [it's E-A -- something 15 struck out], McCabe AG." 16 A: Yes, that's the individual who he was 17 providing as a name for intro that was going to call in 18 regards to the injunction application the next morning. 19 Q: And, when asked some time ago, in the 20 course of certain proceedings, the -- this call, did you 21 remember this call with Ron Fox? 22 A: Quite frankly, if I hadn't have had 23 the notes in this note pad, I would have no memory of it 24 whatsoever. 25 Q: You would have or you had no memory?
2251 A: I had no memory of it at all. 2 Q: Until you found the notepad and then 3 subsequently heard the call? 4 A: Yes, I heard the call. Actually, the 5 -- the tape -- or the recording of this call, for the 6 first time I heard it was subsequent to proceedings that 7 you are likely referring to. 8 Q: Okay. And, after the -- after the -- 9 the proceedings was part of the lawsuit and the 10 discovery? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And it was after the discovery you 13 first heard the call? 14 A: After -- after the discovery. 15 Q: All right. And what, if anything -- 16 what affect, if any, did this telephone call have on your 17 actions that afternoon or that evening? 18 A: It had no affect on my actions other 19 than working towards the injunction and making sure I was 20 attempting to get Mark Wright prepared to attend the 21 application process for the next morning. 22 Q: And, did you change any of your plans 23 as a result of this call -- this call on September 6th or 24 the September 5th call about -- from Ron Fox? 25 A: No, sir, I -- I changed -- nothing I
2261 had in place was changed whatsoever. 2 Q: And, what affect, if any, did these - 3 -this call and the earlier call have on your decision to 4 use the CMU later the evening of September the 6th? 5 A: The use of the CMU had absolutely 6 nothing to do with this telephone call or any other 7 telephone call with Ron Fox. 8 Q: Thank you. That would, perhaps, be 9 an appropriate time for the afternoon break sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 We'll have our afternoon break now. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 13 for fifteen (15) minutes. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 3:19 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 3:44 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed. Please be seated. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And, if I could take you to -- to 23 page 264 of the transcript at 237. And Mr. Fox says he 24 believes that he has the authority to direct the OPP and 25 you said:
2271 "I hope he'll be talking -- he talks to 2 the Commissioner about that." 3 And, then you say: 4 "I hope he and the Commissioner have 5 that discussion." 6 And, what were you referring to there, Mr. 7 -- or Deputy Carson? 8 A: What I was getting at is that if -- 9 if there was someone, and obviously the -- this 10 discussion's about the Premier at that time, if he 11 believes he has the authority to direct the OPP that if 12 he's going to do so, he'll have to speak to the 13 Commissioner and convince the Commissioner of that 14 particular point. 15 Q: And, what was your understanding at 16 the time of the right of a Premier or any other 17 Government official to direct the Ontario Provincial 18 Police? 19 A: Well, it's my understanding under the 20 Police Services Act that the Commissioner is responsible 21 for the operations of the Ontario Provincial Police and 22 I, personally, as an inspector at that time, take my 23 direction through the chain of command from the 24 Commissioner's office. 25 Q: And, at page 267 there's a discussion
2281 with you. Mr. Fox says that Mr. -- Tim McCabe asks 2 what your opinion was with respect to an emergent order 3 that makes it an ex parte order. Did you know what an ex 4 parte order was? 5 A: Quite frankly, no. 6 Q: And, he says -- you say: 7 "Well, I think we can." 8 And, what were you responding to? 9 A: Well, he was speaking to the fact, 10 or, I think we were discussing the fact that, you know, 11 there was some emergent reason to -- to get a -- an 12 injunction short-term versus the longer version, I guess, 13 for lack of a better description. 14 And that I felt that the progression of 15 events that had taken place to this point in time where, 16 you know, there had been a -- a confrontation when the 17 occupiers came into the Provincial Park and then there 18 had been an altercation through the night with the 19 cruiser windows being smashed and in the morning there's 20 all the picnic tables on the -- on the sandy parking lot 21 that there was -- and -- and of course, the -- the 22 gunfire that was heard back in the Military Base through 23 the night, that when you put all those factors together 24 there's such a progression of events that, hopefully, you 25 would have enough to provide consideration for an
2291 emergent order. 2 Q: And, did you hear the conversation 3 that -- between Deputy -- Chief Superintendent Coles and 4 Inspector Fox? 5 A: Yes. I was still in the room, so I - 6 - I heard the side of this -- of the conversation from 7 Chris Coles, yes. 8 Q: And, after the conversation, did he 9 tell you what Inspector Fox had said? 10 A: Quite frankly, I'm -- I -- I don't 11 recall exactly what the discussion was. 12 They -- Coles and Parkin left shortly 13 thereafter. Coles went into the Detachment, made the 14 phone call, and it was clear from that point that I 15 wouldn't be getting calls from Ron Fox. 16 Q: So that you -- you heard the -- the 17 call that was recorded, you heard the Chief 18 Superintendent Coles side of the call that we heard on 19 the tape? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And then there was you there and -- 22 and Superintendent Parkin as well as Chief Superintendent 23 Coles? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And this was not a conference call --
2301 a conference telephone? You couldn't hear Ron Fox's side 2 of it? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And did you have any understanding or 5 any disc -- firstly any understanding of -- at page 269 6 there's a reference, Chief Superintendent Coles says: 7 "The problem with that Ron is if you're 8 not careful you're going to run the 9 issue there as opposed to the myself 10 and the Commissioner running it here so 11 we had better be careful. I have no 12 objection to it because I know you have 13 no objection to -- you have no 14 objection to you phoning John but the 15 only trouble if you're not you're going 16 to be the fastest source of information 17 they've got. And now with them you're 18 going to end up in it -- we're going to 19 end up running it politically." 20 Did you have any understanding as to what 21 he was referring to when he made those two (2) 22 statements? 23 A: Quite frankly, I wasn't sure what was 24 going on in that discussion. 25 Q: Okay. And after the discussion so
2311 that any -- after the telephone call between the -- the 2 parte call between Chief Superintendent Coles and 3 Inspector Fox, what discussion, if any, did you and Chief 4 Superintendent Coles and Superintendent Parkin have about 5 the call or about anything else? 6 A: Well, I know Coles was concerned 7 about the information getting up to Ron and the kerfuffle 8 that this was happening -- the anxiety level that was 9 being raised here. 10 And I know Chris Coles was concerned that 11 these calls were interfering with -- with my ability to 12 do what I needed to do as far as the incident was 13 concerned. And anyway it was clear before they left that 14 Chief Coles had indicated to Fox that he -- he would make 15 those calls through Coles' office or through Parkin as 16 opposed to calling me direct to -- to get that off my 17 plate. 18 Q: And you were told that by Chief 19 Superintendent Coles? 20 A: That was my understanding. Yes. 21 Q: And is it fair to say that one (1) of 22 the problems was that information was, as noted in the 23 conversation, information was being disseminated to Mr. 24 Kobayashi or others who attended the Command Post from 25 the MNR up through a variety of people to the MNR and
2321 then coming back down through Ron Fox in effect looping 2 back to the OPP? 3 A: It -- it was -- it was problematic 4 and that's -- that's the difficulty when you have more 5 than one (1) ministry involved. And then, of course, 6 everyone wants the latest information and everybody wants 7 it before the newspaper hits the stand at eight o'clock 8 in the morning. 9 Q: And the -- so after this call you -- 10 Ron Fox made his enquiries through or was -- your 11 understanding he was to liaise with Chief Superintendent 12 Coles' office? 13 A: Yes. I don't believe there was any 14 indication from this point on that I received any more 15 calls from Ron Fox. 16 Q: And the -- did Chief Superintendent 17 Coles tell you anything about his unrecorded call -- the 18 call from the Detachment with Ron Fox? 19 A: No, he did not. 20 Q: Okay. And when -- do you recall when 21 they left? 22 A: Well they left -- 23 Q: Parkin and Coles? 24 A: -- fairly shortly thereafter. You'll 25 see at 14:27 there's a briefing that Mark Wright led.
2331 But then at some point at 14:47 I talk about the fact 2 that Tim McCabe is -- is -- has -- I'm not sure what time 3 -- yeah Tim McCabe called at 2:45. So before 2:45 they - 4 - they had left and I'm back doing my regular work. 5 Q: And so the 14:27 briefing was done by 6 Mark Wright leading the briefing as you were not 7 available and perhaps I could just ask your understanding 8 of a couple of the matters on page 62, the third 9 paragraph down: 10 "Stan Korosec said things aren't too 11 bad today. chains down from Army Camp 12 Road to Ipperwash Road. Les Kobayashi 13 has been advised." 14 Do you know what that referred to? 15 A: I believe there was a spot there 16 where there was a chain that went across one (1) of the 17 gates -- gates or access from into the Park but I'm not 18 sure which one (1) that's referring to. 19 Q: And then there's a note: 20 "Arrange to have blocks put up at 21 Ipperwash Road and Army Camp Road at 22 beach accesses. Will have backup there 23 when blocks put up." 24 A: Yes. That's referring to putting 25 some concrete barriers down near the beach, that would be
2341 in the sandy parking lot right at the beach waterfront 2 access. 3 Q: So, that -- at the end -- as the 4 sandy parking lot goes down the little hill to the beach 5 it would be where; on the park side of the access -- the 6 park side of the beach? 7 A: It would be -- well, there's a fence 8 that goes along there and it would be on the beach where 9 the fence no longer -- or the fence terminates and it's 10 just beach open there. 11 So, it would be on the beach right in line 12 with that fence. 13 Q: On the park side of the sandy parking 14 lot or on the cottage side of the access? 15 A: Well, really it's on -- it's on the 16 property line. 17 Q: Yes. Sorry, I'm trying to figure our 18 which property line? 19 A: Well, it's on -- it's on the property 20 line between the parking lot and the Park. 21 Q: Yes, okay. 22 A: So if you -- 23 Q: On the east side -- 24 A: Oh yes, I'm sorry. Yes. I'm sorry, 25 I misunderstood. Okay. Yes.
2351 Q: It's getting late and lawyers 2 sometimes ask questions that are not intelligible, 3 especially later on in the day so... 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not you, Mr. 5 Millar. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sometimes me too. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Now, there's a note: 10 "John Carson wants a couple of guys to 11 sit on beach with night vision to see 12 if they're coming near property at 13 night." 14 And what does that refer to Deputy Carson? 15 A: Where is that entry, sorry? 16 Q: It's in the -- where you see the 17 beach access about the blocks, it's one (1), two (2), 18 three (3), four (4) -- fifth paragraph down -- fourth 19 paragraph down. It starts: 20 "Up. ERT team given TRU team's large 21 pepper sprayer. John Carson [it's on 22 page 62] wants a couple of guys to sit 23 on beach with night vision to see if 24 they are coming near property at 25 night."
2361 A: Yes. That's in regards to the area 2 we just spoke about where the blocks would be put in that 3 there would be officers down in that general area of the 4 beach to monitor any activity to see if any of the 5 occupiers are in and around the cottages that are 6 adjacent to the parking lot. 7 Q: Okay. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And there's a note on page 63 at the 12 top of page 63 and there's a discussion about complaints 13 but one (1) complaint is: 14 "Parents are calling in kids are coming 15 home from school feeling sick because 16 of the trauma of being stopped all the 17 time. Talk of rerouting the buses. 18 Buses are not being stopped at 19 checkpoints." 20 And did anyone discuss this problem with 21 you? 22 A: I was aware of that. 23 Q: And what, if anything, was done to 24 try to alleviate that problem? 25 A: We allowed the buses to travel
2371 through as opposed to -- to stopping. The sense we got 2 was that the young children were being -- felt upset at 3 being stopped at the roadblocks with all the police 4 officers and cruisers there. I guess it caused some 5 anxiety for the -- for the children, so we made 6 arrangements that the buses would be -- and this, of 7 course, is the first week of school. So, we have some 8 youth who are pretty young, new -- new kids going to 9 school. 10 So anyway, we allowed the buses to go 11 through without having to stop at the checkpoint. 12 Q: Okay. And then, there's a note: 13 "Sergeant Seltzer advises there is no 14 support coming from the Reserve. 15 Trevor Richardson advises told by 16 Elders that there is no burial on that 17 part of the land. 18 Mark Wright: Have Sergeant Seltzer 19 check with John Carson if a statement 20 can be made regarding this." 21 And, were you advised of this information 22 when -- at some point on September the 6th? 23 A: I was aware of it. 24 Q: And, was a statement -- did Sergeant 25 Seltzer ask you about making a statement?
2381 A: I don't recall a discussion of that 2 point, but we never -- we never made a public statement 3 in that regard that I can think of. 4 Q: Okay. And then, you had a 5 discussion with Tim McCabe from the Ministry of the 6 Attorney General and it's at Tab 39; it's the second book 7 in front of you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And, that call was at approximately 12 2:36 on September the 6th? 13 A: By the handwritten note I have, I 14 have indicated 14:45. 15 Q: And, your handwritten note appears in 16 the -- at page 55 of Exhibit P-410? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And so, on your watch, you have it at 19 14:45? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And, the scribe has it at 14:47 and 22 the logger tape is at 14:36 or almost 14:37 about seven 23 (7) minutes or -- difference between the logger tape and 24 the time that you wrote down? 25 A: Yes, sir.
2391 Q: And, I think we discussed this 2 morning that the logger tape is probably more accurate? 3 A: Correct. Consistent, anyway. 4 Q: More consistent? 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 7 8 MCLEAN and CARSON and Tim MCCABE 9 10 September 6, 1995 11 TIME: 14.36.54 hours 12 13 (phone ringing) 14 MCLEAN: Command Post Sgt MCLEAN. 15 MCCABE: Oh is Inspector CARSON there? 16 MCLEAN: Ah he's in a closed door meeting right at 17 the moment um may can I take a message 18 err. 19 MCCABE: Well, it's Tim MCCABE at the Ministry of 20 the Attorney General ah I was talking to 21 Ron FOX ah rec ah recently about ah 22 possible legal proceedings in connection 23 with the ah. 24 MCLEAN: Uhum. 25 MCCABE: With the ah.
2401 MCLEAN: I can ah certainly someone ah like 2 yourself I could I just put you on hold. 3 MCCABE: Sure. 4 MCLEAN: I'll knock on the door okay. 5 MCCABE: Sure. 6 MCLEAN: I'm sorry your name was Tim. 7 MCCABE: Tim MCCABE. 8 MCLEAN: Okay I want to interrupt can you hold on a 9 second please. 10 MCCABE: All right. 11 (pause) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And, the meeting that -- that you 15 were in, can you recall was it still with Mr. -- 16 A: It was -- 17 Q: -- Superintendent Coles and Parkin? 18 A: Correct. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: While we're just waiting, if I could 23 take everyone to page 268; there's an entry, fourth 24 McCabe entry down, the last line. It should be, 25 "interlocutory injunction."
2411 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 2 3 CARSON: Inspector CARSON. 4 MCCABE: Oh hello Inspector it's Tim MCCABE at the 5 Attorney Generals office in Toronto. 6 CARSON: Yes Tim. 7 MCCABE: I ah I I I think you probably have heard 8 from Ron FOX by now. 9 CARSON: I have. 10 MCCABE: Um about the fact that I'd probably be 11 calling you. 12 CARSON: Right. 13 MCCABE: Um well the latest here is I'll be 14 interested ah in due course to hear ah ah 15 what ah what what the latest on the scene 16 is but but I expect to get confirmed 17 instructions at later on this afternoon to 18 seek an ex parte interlock Tory 19 injunction. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 MCCABE: Ah tomorrow in Sarnia. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 MCCABE: Ah and I'm told that ah the Court is 24 available 9:00 a.m. tomorrow in Sarnia. 25 CARSON: Okay.
2421 MCCABE: Uh so uh two (2) things ah first of all I 2 I think it would be ah the best way of 3 approaching this rather than try to 4 provide your affidavit to the court would 5 be to have you in attendance and 6 CARSON: Uh huh. 7 MCCABE: ah just go through a series of questions 8 as to the circumstance as it exists. 9 CARSON: Right. 10 MCCABE: And ah and ah you know mostly just factual 11 um you know ah ah factual ah narrative. 12 CARSON: Right. 13 MCCABE: About the circumstances that have 14 occurred. 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 MCCABE: And then ah ah and and and you know we'll 17 talk to you about this before we get in 18 get into it but a little bit of ah your 19 view of the situation and and so forth and 20 ah 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 MCCABE: We can talk about that later but I so the 23 first question is would you be available 24 to ah to to meet with me I guess between 25 eight (8) and nine (9) tomorrow in Sarnia
2431 and then ah and then attend in court. 2 CARSON: Um well ah right right now ah Ron has a 3 shared that with me and and he Chief 4 Superintendent my boss ah is ah ah we're 5 just discussing that as to if I'm the most 6 appropriate person to supply that 7 information or not. 8 MCCABE: Right. 9 CARSON: And ah possibly I am but possibly somebody 10 else maybe able to do that from here 11 besides myself. 12 MCCABE: Right. 13 CARSON: Ah that that can give you the the very 14 same information so it's a matter of who's 15 the most appropriate one. 16 MCCABE: Right. 17 CARSON: Ah so I haven't you know got a handle on 18 that yet. 19 MCCABE: Okay. 20 CARSON: Ah you know we went to help out in anyway 21 we can like don't get me wrong here. 22 MCCABE: Sure. 23 CARSON: It's just a matter of of doing it right 24 the first time. 25 MCCABE: Yep.
2441 CARSON: Okay. 2 MCCABE: All right good but as so either you or 3 someone else from from the from the ah 4 Command Post there would be able ah to 5 attend. 6 CARSON: Right probably my number two (2) guy I 7 suspect I I have a guy who's who is every 8 bit as up up to speed on on the issues as 9 I am. 10 MCCABE: Right okay that's that. The other thing 11 is ah Ron tells me that you do have a list 12 of ah of names of ah people who are 13 occupying the park. 14 CARSON: Well some of them yes. 15 MCCABE: Ah would it be possible for you to give me 16 fax me a copy of that list I I'm just 17 thinking here in terms of the ah you know 18 the title of proceedings here the the 19 names of the defendants that we would be 20 listing. 21 CARSON: Okay okay ah yeah that shouldn't be a 22 problem we can probably ah draft that up 23 very quickly. Okay ah what's your fax 24 number. 25 MCCABE: four (4) one (1) six (6).
2451 CARSON: Yes. 2 MCCABE: Um three (3) two (2) six (6) 3 CARSON: Right. 4 MCCABE: four (4) one (1) eight (8) one (1). 5 CARSON Okay okay and that's in the AG's office. 6 MCCABE: Yep ah Crown Law Office Civil Attorney 7 Generals Office and if you just send it to 8 ah to my attention Tim MCCABE. 9 CARSON: Okay yeah that shouldn't we (u/i) our our 10 investigators have probably got a lot of 11 that all put together anyway. 12 MCCABE: Right. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 MCCABE: What what is you're your appraisal as I 15 say I think what I'll what I'll do is 16 either is later on this afternoon talk you 17 know if I may you're going to be there are 18 you. 19 CARSON: Yes. 20 MCCABE: Speak to you or or whoever is going to be 21 the person who would be giving this 22 evidence. 23 CARSON: Right. 24 MCCABE: In greater detail. 25 CARSON: Yes.
2461 MCCABE: But we'll be seeking this ex parte as I 2 say which means without notice and in 3 those circumstances ah it's it's important 4 to be able to show some kind of urgency. 5 CARSON: Yes. 6 MCCABE: In order to demonstrate that if the order 7 is not granted or if the if the time 8 necessary to give the period of notice ah 9 that you know serious consequences could 10 occur. 11 CARSON: Right. 12 MCCABE: Um ah we we there were I think the thing 13 that has gotten people particularly 14 concerned here is the reports of gunfire 15 last night. 16 CARSON: Yes. 17 MCCABE: And and the fire. 18 CARSON: Yes. 19 MCCABE: And the alcohol and those sorts of things. 20 Um are I mean ah does that worry you? 21 CARSON: Yes. 22 MCCABE: Ah well. 23 CARSON There's ah there's ah. 24 MCCABE: That's the answer to the question ah 25 CARSON: Yeah
2471 MCCABE: You know that's the point. 2 CARSON: Okay but ah I say that ah but I have to 3 qualify that somewhat. 4 MCCABE: Yeah. 5 CARSON: Ah the fire was set up as an ambush okay 6 our guys got ambushed ah to down and deal 7 with the fire on the roadway and got ah 8 bombarded with rocks which caused damage 9 to windshields the three (3) vehicles and 10 ah fortunately no no officers were hurt. 11 MCCABE: Right. 12 CARSON: Ah the gunfire was back ah in the ah in 13 the bush. I have I have to be frank with 14 you we have not ah ah had a weapon pointed 15 at us ah we haven't seen one fired in any 16 direction and there is no reason to 17 believe that the firing that we heard last 18 night ah was anything more that audio for 19 our benefit. 20 MCCABE: I see. 21 CARSON: Okay so so when when you hear that there's 22 gunfire ah you can't really use that while 23 you you I mean it it's a significant 24 factor from from a safety point of view 25 from my perspective in that I know that
2481 obviously there's weaponry in there. 2 MCCABE: Okay. 3 CARSON: But but to say from a safety point of view 4 that it's been ah that our officers have 5 been threatened with weapons I can't say 6 that. 7 MCCABE: Right. 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 MCCABE: Right but I I suppose from a public safety 10 point of view if you take the view that 11 the occupiers are themselves members of 12 the public ah you know there's there 13 there's this kind of stuff going on. 14 CARSON: Well, there's no yeah ah absolutely like 15 there is no doubt about it I mean it's you 16 know it's ah certainly not something 17 that's going to give you a fuzzy warm 18 feeling. 19 MCCABE: Yeah. 20 CARSON: Yeah. 21 MCCABE: Okay. 22 CARSON: Yeah, I mean (u/i) the fact that there is 23 gunfire going on is a is a concern and ah 24 particularly when it takes and it happens 25 in conjunction with other events I mean
2491 there is a subtle message there I guess as 2 I was saying ah. 3 MCCABE: Yep. 4 CARSON: You know whether you see it or not but you 5 know if if a judge asked me specifically 6 did we see gunfire where did we see 7 weapons or was any weapons pointed as us 8 ah or were we ah ah ah felt our safety was 9 in jeopardy because of these weapons we'd 10 have to say we have not been ah directly 11 threatened. I mean. 12 MCCABE: Right. 13 CARSON: Those are the subtleties that are used to 14 you know ah ah as a tactical approach to 15 us. 16 MCCABE: Yeah. 17 CARSON: Yeah. 18 MCCABE: Right. 19 CARSON Yeah. 20 MCCABE: Well um if he if the judge puts it to you 21 that ah you as a professional police 22 officer do you do you find do you think ah 23 this injunctions should be grated on this 24 urgent basis ah ah you know what's your 25 answer to that.
2501 CARSON: Yes absolutely. 2 MCCABE: Yeah all right. 3 CARSON: Okay (u/i) I mean they're just as long as 4 it's understood in the big picture not in 5 isolation okay cause I don't want people 6 to think or or that your affidavit to 7 suggest that that we have been fired upon 8 or any of those kinds of things. 9 MCCABE: Sure. 10 CARSON: Because you know 11 MCCABE: (u/i) well the information about that will 12 come from you or from the officers. 13 CARSON: Okay okay. 14 MCCABE: You know we'll we'll just and whoever it 15 is should be prepared to give something of 16 a narrative. 17 CARSON: Yes. 18 MCCABE: Ah you know they won't be they won't 19 really be any leading questions it'll be 20 sort of after identifying yourself ah tell 21 the story of 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 MCCABE: what's happening there. 24 CARSON: Sure sure and and that's no problem we can 25 certainly do that.
2511 MCCABE: Yep. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 MCCABE: All right. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 MCCABE: Well I will 6 CARSON: what what number can I get back to you at? 7 MCCABE: I'm at ah I'm at four (4) one (1) six (6) 8 CARSON: Right. 9 MCCABE: three (3) two (2) six (6) 10 CARSON: Yes. 11 MCCABE: Four (4) one (1) two (2) seven (7) and you 12 have my fax number there and ah 13 CARSON: Yeah. 14 MCCABE: and ah if you could get that list here ah. 15 CARSON: Okay we'll we'll get working right on it. 16 MCCABE: Okay. 17 CARSON Okay. 18 MCCABE: Right oh. 19 CARSON: Thank you. 20 MCCABE: Bye bye. 21 CARSON Bye. 22 23 End of conversation 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
2521 Q: And is it fair to say that -- if I 2 could go back to page 270, the number two (2) guy that 3 you referred to is Staff Sergeant Mark Wright? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And then Mr. McCabe notes at page 271 6 the reports of the gunfire the night before. 7 And you wanted -- you did make it clear 8 that the gunfire was back in the bush? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And that the gunfire no one had been 11 -- no OPP officer had been threatened? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And that -- and I note on page 273 14 that: 15 "There are subtleties [I mean] those are 16 the subtleties that are used to know as 17 a tactical approach to us." 18 And what were you referring there? 19 A: Well it's my sense that the gunfire 20 in the bush was an intimidation factor. 21 Q: And -- and with respect to the this 22 whole issue of gunfire, you wanted to make it clear to 23 Mr. McCabe that no OPP officer had been threatened and 24 the gunfire was from somewhere in the camp? 25 A: Correct. I wanted to make sure he
2531 understood all that context. 2 Q: Okay. And if -- and at this time you 3 knew that -- well you knew from your knowledge of the 4 people you knew in the Park, that you knew in the Army 5 Camp and many of whom are in the Park, that they were 6 hunters and many of them had hunting rifles? 7 A: Yes. There's no doubt that they 8 would have had hunting weapons in there. But, clearly 9 the shots had occurred overnight in my view were done for 10 effect as opposed to -- as part of someone hunting deer. 11 Q: Fair enough. But -- but you knew 12 that they had rifles and -- 13 A: Oh, yes. 14 Q: -- and those rifles had never been 15 used with -- pointed at or used against an Ontario 16 Provincial Police officer in your experience from 1993 17 on? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And is it fair to say that one (1) of 20 the things that concerned you a lot was as you point out 21 on page 272, what you described as the ambush? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And that was an important 24 consideration for you? 25 A: Yes.
2541 Q: And that was based on your 2 understanding of what you had been told happened the 3 night before? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And I think I asked you earlier 6 today, you hadn't been told that the -- that cruisers 7 pushed picnic tables out in the sandy parking prior to 8 rocks being thrown? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And if you had known that, that the 11 rocks were not thrown until the police cruisers according 12 to the evidence of the occupiers pushed the -- pushed the 13 picnic tables, would you have described that then as an 14 ambush? 15 A: Without the privilege of all the 16 other information, I -- I don't think it's fair for me to 17 comment on that. 18 Q: Okay. But, that -- no one told you 19 that? 20 A: I -- I wasn't aware there was any 21 incident where some picnic tables were pushed by a 22 cruiser, no. 23 Q: Then when was it decided that the -- 24 that Mark Wright would be the person to go to... 25 A: Well, I think there was a discussion
2551 I had with Chris Coles before he actually leaves the 2 command post that afternoon in regards to who the best 3 one was. 4 There was -- certainly I was able to 5 provide the information that was required but there was 6 certainly a sense that my attendance was probably more 7 urgently required at the command post as opposed to -- 8 the Court and that we could best get by with Mark Wright 9 going to Sarnia as opposed to myself. 10 Q: Okay. Then the notes indicate at 11 15:02 -- oh, excuse me, the notes that you have of your 12 conversation with Tim McCabe are at as we've said before, 13 at page 55, Exhibit 410, Tim McCabe-AG14-45. 14 And the note is: 15 "Ex parte injunction - tomorrow Sarnia 16 09:00." 17 Then: 18 "Provide my affidavit? Myself or Mark 19 Wright. List of defendants." 20 Is that what that says? 21 A: Yes, it is. 22 Q: And then, a fax number, the Crown Law 23 Office, Attention: Tim McCabe and then a telephone 24 number? 25 A: Yes.
2561 Q: And, that's the extent of your note 2 with respect to that conversation? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And then, at 15 -- 15:29, there's a 5 note: 6 "Doug Babbitt call John Carson regarding 7 London News wanting to know if shots 8 fired last night." 9 And do you recall speaking to Doug Babbitt 10 -- Sergeant Babbitt about that London News at 3:30 in the 11 afternoon on September 6th? 12 A: I have no recollection of that call. 13 Q: Then, you spoke to Inspector 14 Hutchinson at approximately 15:47? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And, that call is transcribed at Tab 17 42 and it's call number 37 on the Carson Master Complete 18 Final List? 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 21 22 John CARSON and Jim HUTCHINSON 23 24 September 6, 1995 25 TIME: 15.41.03 hours
2571 Track 3.wav 2 3 (phone ringing) 4 MALE: MCDONALD. 5 CARSON: Hello is ah Detective Inspector Jim 6 HUTCHINSON there please? 7 MCDONALD: Yes he is (u/i) 8 HUTCHINSON: HUTCHINSON. 9 CARSON: Hi Jim John CARSON here. 10 HUTCHINSON: Yeah hi John how are you doing. 11 CARSON: Sorry to be so slow to get back to you 12 here. 13 HUTCHINSON: Oh that's fine I understand you being 14 behind closed doors there. 15 CARSON: Well we've had some alligators. 16 HUTCHINSON: Oh is that right. 17 CARSON: (laughs) 18 HUTCHINSON: Friendly ones or ones on the outside. 19 CARSON: Oh well we just just some political 20 pressures if you would. 21 HUTCHINSON: Well that's what I was wondering ah. 22 CARSON: Yeah. 23 HUTCHINSON: And that's one of the reasons I was 24 calling because I ah I was talking to you 25 this morning and you were talking about
2581 the Bison's and ah you know you've got a 2 ah four (4) people being trained and that 3 you know. 4 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 5 HUTCHINSON: But ah I was just wondering under under 6 what parameters ah was was made down there 7 as part of the use of them. 8 CARSON: Ah what we would do is use use them only 9 in emergency for ah for extrication of our 10 people. 11 HUTCHINSON: Only for extrication of our people. 12 CARSON: Yeah. 13 HUTCHINSON: if they're under fire or something like 14 that then. 15 CARSON: Yeah yeah we're trying to you know 16 somebody gets hurt and they're down then 17 we can go in and get them out. 18 HUTCHINSON: Yeah yeah cause that's basically what 19 that's ah you know that's what's happened 20 here and that's why I was calling down 21 like they were used the other day and they 22 went through the whole night with 23 negotiations to use them and they went 24 into extract the people and ah and 25 basically the RCMP were under the
2591 understanding that they would be able to 2 ah you know there are theirs. 3 CARSON: Yep. 4 HUTCHINSON: Use as they saw fit. 5 CARSON: Right. 6 HUTCHINSON: This morning it came back from um the DND 7 from Winnipeg the fact that ah ah anytime 8 they're to be used there has to be a Ops 9 plan put forward and approved by Ottawa. 10 CARSON: Well, if that's the case we would be using 11 them. 12 HUTCHINSON: and ah and going through and ah so really 13 their plan has been already approved that 14 they're to be used to an assault on the 15 camp that's been approved already. 16 CARSON: Right. 17 HUTCHINSON: But if they were going to patrol with them 18 or use them for anything else at all which 19 they were thinking of then ah it says ah 20 and they're sorting that out but it ah the 21 DND is saying no it's ah that's not the 22 purpose of this you know. 23 CARSON: Yeah and I wouldn't I wouldn't ah be 24 interested in in any patrol type thing. 25 HUTCHINSON: no.
2601 CARSON: either. I mean 2 HUTCHINSON: you have different situation. 3 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 4 HUTCHINSON: Really as far as that goes. 5 CARSON: Yeah. 6 HUTCHINSON: But I was just curious because ah you know 7 what the understanding was here in then 8 all of sudden you know in twenty-four (24) 9 hours its changed and it's 9u/i) it's the 10 big thing here you know. 11 CARSON: Yeah. 12 HUTCHINSON: For anything they want to do whether they 13 want to use them for cover or to put a 14 team in for something or to extract a team 15 or to do anything like that up in this 16 country 17 CARSON: right. 18 HUTCHINSON: you really have to write a novice plan. 19 CARSON: Well maybe Christ there wasn't time to do 20 that. 21 HUTCHINSON: Well no. 22 CARSON: I mean 23 HUTCHINSON: No (u/i) 24 CARSON: Decisions are made in the fly. 25 HUTCHINSON: Uhum.
2611 CARSON: Well ah. 2 HUTCHINSON: That's why that's why I was just curious 3 to get down to you to see 4 CARSON: Yeah. 5 HUTCHINSON: what what had been done there. 6 CARSON: Well, we did have no paperwork at all in 7 fact ah or course I've been ten (10) six 8 (6) two (2) zero (0) a couple other things 9 that ah I haven't had ah real good chance 10 to ah ah I know there has been some calls 11 and we're looking at a some training and 12 that for our guys starting 13 HUTCHINSON: Uhum. 14 CARSON: as soon as possible. 15 HUTCHINSON: Uhum. 16 CARSON: So I I 17 HUTCHINSON: That's what they were doing here too like 18 they had training and they had them down 19 at Kamloops and there is no problem with 20 it all of a sudden the the night they 21 wanted to move em then ah it seemed like 22 all hell broke loose and they didn't want 23 to wake up the General who's to Winnipeg 24 to authorize them and ah and ah you know 25 it was a different story then.
2621 CARSON: Yeah well that's too bad. 2 HUTCHINSON: And they were using a DND drivers at the 3 time and not ah RCMP drivers and ah so 4 even now the Ops plan to use RCMP drivers 5 is to move other vehicles that have to be 6 passed by. They're saying here they the 7 Lieutenant in Winnipeg to the General said 8 that the plan has to be approved by 9 Ottawa. 10 CARSON: Oh. 11 HUTCHINSON: So I'm just that's why I just wanted to 12 warn you and (u/i) whoever you are down 13 there 14 CARSON: yeah 15 HUTCHINSON: with the military. 16 CARSON: Right. 17 HUTCHINSON: Is it CUNNINGHAM you're dealing with or? 18 CARSON: Ah BACHELOR. 19 HUTCHINSON: BACHELOR from Young S from Toronto. 20 CARSON: Yeah I'll see in Toronto yeah. 21 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 22 CARSON: Yeah. 23 HUTCHINSON: Okay. 24 CARSON: Yeah we it looks like ah we're going to 25 see ah ah an application for injunction
2631 tomorrow morning. 2 HUTCHINSON: By the Ministry of Natural Resources. 3 CARSON: Yep. 4 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 5 CARSON: In Sarnia. 6 HUTCHINSON: In Sarnia eh. 7 CARSON: Nine (9) o'clock tomorrow morning there's 8 court time available for it. 9 HUTCHINSON: Uhum oh good. 10 CARSON: So at least that will give us paperwork. 11 HUTCHINSON: Who's that before the ah the ah Divisional 12 Court Judge ah. 13 CARSON: Yeah Judge ah GARDNER. 14 HUTCHINSON: Oh I don't know him. 15 CARSON: I've never heard of him personally. 16 HUTCHINSON: No. 17 CARSON: Ah so anyway that's ah one of the ah 18 things that gonna happen I guess. 19 HUTCHINSON: (u/i) 20 CARSON: And how that will shake out I don't know 21 but ah we will see. 22 HUTCHINSON: Well, they're in a status position here 23 for a couple of days eh so. 24 CARSON: Yeah. 25 HUTCHINSON: And ah going through this.
2641 CARSON: Okay yep so when he comes up that's good 2 ah that's good to know we'll certainly be 3 prepared for that. 4 HUTCHINSON: Yeah I just wanted to tell you that cause 5 I didn't know I just didn't know how many 6 bases you were on there. 7 CARSON: Yeah. 8 HUTCHINSON: And certainly that that's one of the most 9 frustrating thing that they're going 10 through right now here as far as that goes 11 is the use of that because they want to do 12 some operational plan to do some things 13 and ah if any of their plans hinge around 14 the the use of those vehicles than ah you 15 know. 16 CARSON: Well and and given the terrain there how 17 can you not ah plan to use them. 18 HUTCHINSON: That's right. 19 CARSON: I mean it just doesn't make sense if 20 somebody goes down that you go and you 21 pick em up in a Chevy Cavalier 22 HUTCHINSON: That's right. 23 CARSON: You know. 24 HUTCHINSON: Yeah. 25 CARSON: Especially when there's that well like I
2651 don't know well we haven't we haven't got 2 the whole nine (9) yards on this yet from 3 our end because things just haven't 4 developed that far yet but they're working 5 on it so. 6 HUTCHINSON: What at the Sol at the Solicitor Generals 7 Office you mean err. 8 CARSON: Well it went up through the Sol Gen and 9 it's coming back down the DND side but the 10 paperwork from the the Federal side hasn't 11 been ah been written I guess in total yet. 12 HUTCHINSON: Uhum. 13 CARSON: But there is some of that information that 14 that is here I suspect ah ah Mark was 15 dealing with it while I was talking to the 16 Chief so. 17 HUTCHINSON: Uhum. 18 CARSON: Ah probably get briefed here right shortly 19 as to how what what those conversations 20 were. 21 HUTCHINSON: Yep okay. 22 CARSON: Okey dokey. 23 HUTCHINSON: All right I'm out of here in about two (2) 24 hours I guess. 25 CARSON: Well have a good trip.
2661 HUTCHINSON: Alrighty. 2 CARSON: Thanks. 3 HUTCHINSON: Yeah bye bye 4 End of conversation 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And, at this point, Inspector 8 Hutchinson was still out in British Columbia? 9 A: Yeah, correct. I returned his call. 10 Q: You returned his call? And, if I 11 could just correct -- there's a couple of small errors, 12 but there's one on page 283, the second last Carson entry 13 from the bottom on the tape. It said -- it reads: 14 "Well, if that's the case, we would be 15 using them." 16 And, on the tape it was: 17 "Well, if that's the case, we won't be 18 using them." 19 Do you see that, Commissioner, it's the 20 third from the... 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I do. 22 I noticed that. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now -- 24 THE WITNESS: There's -- there's also one 25 on 286.
2671 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes? 2 THE WITNESS: About halfway down the 3 page, it says: 4 "Yeah, I'll see you in Toronto." 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, it should be, 6 "LC --" 7 THE WITNESS: LFCA, Toronto. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: LFCA, Toronto? Land 9 Forces... 10 THE WITNESS: Central Area. 11 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Central Area. Okay. 15 Then, if I could take you to page 282, the 16 second entry from the bottom: 17 "Carson: Oh, well, we've just -- just 18 some political pressures, if you would." 19 And, what were you referring to there? 20 A: I was just -- that was just as a 21 result of a discussion between Fox and Coles. 22 Q: Okay. And then, the top of page 283, 23 Hutchinson -- Inspector Hutchinson's asked: 24 "But I -- I was just wondering under what 25 parameters was made down there as part of
2681 the use of them. 2 Carson: What we do is use them only in 3 emergency for extradition of our -- 4 extrication of our people. 5 Hutchinson: Only for extrication of our 6 people? 7 Carson: Yeah. 8 Hutchinson: If they're under fire or 9 something like that then? 10 Carson: Yeah, we're trying to, you know, 11 somebody gets hurt and they're down, then 12 we can go in and get them out." 13 And, that is an accurate statement as to 14 why you wanted these -- this -- these pieces of 15 equipment? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And, you note on the top of page 18 82,(sic) there's a note: 19 "I wouldn't be interested in any -- 20 interested in any patrol type of thing." 21 So, you had -- you had no plan as Incident 22 Commander to use them for patrols, simply to rescue 23 someone who is wounded? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Or injured in some way, is that
2691 correct? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's a little past 4 4:30, perhaps we should stop for the day and start again 5 tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 We'll adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much. 10 11 (WITNESS RETIRES) 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 14 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, May 19th at 9:00 15 a.m. 16 17 --- Upon adjourning at 4:30 p.m. 18 19 Certified Correct, 20 21 22 23 24 ____________________ 25 Carol Geehan, Ms.