11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 17th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) (np) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 8 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 333 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-429: Document Number 1001101 September 4 05/95 12:03 E-mail to Nancy Mansell 5 from Anthony Parkin Re: Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park. 199 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon resuming at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 9 everybody. 10 11 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 14 Q: Good morning, Deputy Carson. 15 A: Good morning, sir. 16 Q: If I could take you to Exhibit P-426 17 please. The logger notes page 18. And you can use 18 either -- I assume the ones that you have in front of you 19 are the same so -- although they're -- that is an 20 assumption actually because there are some minor 21 differences in some of these. 22 But could I take you to -- there's an 23 entry at 7:03 at the top of page 18 that I didn't ask you 24 about and I would like to. It says: 25 "John Carson and Mark Wright
81 orientation of command unit with 2 Sergeant Cousineau. John Carson re: 3 telephones. Have one phone that rings 4 here for calls like Chief to call me." 5 Now what does that refer to? 6 A: That means that I wanted one (1) line 7 that was available for, basically a private line for 8 myself that no one else would have access to. 9 Q: And we'll hear about that line again. 10 But that line going to be recorded? 11 A: At that time I didn't have any idea 12 whether it was recorded or not. 13 Q: Okay. And at this time did you want 14 it recorded or did you simply want a line that was a line 15 direct to you? 16 A: At that point in time I hadn't turned 17 my mind to the issue of it being recorded. I wasn't 18 aware that it was or wasn't recorded. My assumption 19 quite frankly would have been that it would not have been 20 recorded. 21 However, the -- the point I was trying to 22 make at that point in time was that that wouldn't be a 23 number that would be -- that would be widely distributed 24 to the people involved in order to call in, that that 25 number be given to select people who would have direct
91 access to myself. 2 Q: Okay. Now if I could take you to 3 8:27 you had a telephone call with Wade Lacroix? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends, in 6 the book that -- the book that says, "Audio logger, 7 selected tapes Chief Superintendent J. Carson." 8 If you go to Tab 4 and that's right in 9 front of you. I think that should be that and it says 10 "John Carson and unknown staff sergeant." And I believe 11 that you will identify this as Wade Lacroix. Does that - 12 - on the book that you have in front of you, is that what 13 you've got? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 17 18 John Carson and unknown Staff Sergeant 19 20 September 5, 1995 21 TIME: 08:20:42 hours 22 Track 1.wav 23 24 MALE: Command Post. 25 MALE: Is Johnny CARSON there.
101 MALE: John CARSON, yes he is in here. 2 MALE: Is that you Bunk. 3 MALE: Yep. 4 MALE: Can I speak at him. 5 MALE: You sure can. Hang on one sec. 6 CARSON: Inspector CARSON. 7 MALE: Good morning sir. 8 CARSON: Hi, how are ya. 9 MALE: Well I was kind of hoping this would have 10 happened when I was on two weeks vacation, 11 not the day I come back. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Now that's Staff Sergeant Wade 15 Lacroix? 16 A: Correct. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 19 20 CARSON: Haw, haw, haw, no such luck there bud. 21 MALE: Ah I just received a phone call from the 22 MPP, quite irate, not at us. 23 CARSON: Right. 24 MALE: Ah, he's going to call here. 25 CARSON: You're being recorded by the way, we're on
111 recorded lines here. 2 MALE: Okay. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 MALE: He wants me to brief him, he's going to 5 call the Premier and say this is 6 ridiculous. 7 CARSON: Yes. 8 MALE: And I want something done. 9 CARSON: Well okay and and so that you know we have 10 4 ERT Teams. Two were on the ground all 11 night and two new ones are in there now. 12 MALE: Okay. 13 CARSON: We're past trying to contain it. 14 MALE: Okay. 15 CARSON: And ah ah our our objective here is to 16 contain and negotiate a peaceful solution 17 with this whatever that may be. 18 MALE: Okay. 19 CARSON: Ah, we have ah, adequate resources at this 20 time to ah to address all public concerns. 21 MALE: Okay. 22 CARSON: Ah, no one ah in the community is is in 23 any danger of anything in our estimation 24 and ah we will maintain that level of 25 service ah as long as it is required.
121 MALE: Okay. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 MALE: Um we'll address we're going for an 4 injunction. 5 CARSON: Yes Natural Resources are addressing that 6 as we speak. 7 MALE: Okay, who's the ERT ah who's the ERT guy 8 who's the ERT commanders. 9 CARSON: Well, we've got ah one (1), two (2), three 10 (3) and six (6) here. Ah, three (3) and 11 six (6) are on the ground now. One (1) 12 and two (2) are just coming back from 13 debriefing after the nights over. 14 MALE: The only reason I'm asking is if it's a 15 large formation I was, I'm one of the 16 ones, I'm just wondering who you've got 17 doing that. 18 CARSON: I'm sorry. 19 MALE: For a large formation of ERT there is 20 suppose to be a, a ah Staff Sergeant, I'm 21 just wondering if, 22 CARSON: Well at this point, ah. 23 MALE: Well get em on standby. 24 CARSON: No they are here. 25 MALE: No I mean but I mean what what are you
131 going to do with that I mean the only 2 reason I'm asking is I'm one. I just 3 wanted to know. 4 CARSON: You mean as a crowd control operation. 5 MALE: Yeah. 6 CARSON: Well we don't intend to go into that mode. 7 MALE: Okay. 8 CARSON: All they're all they're doing is is a 9 perimeter security. 10 MALE: Okay. 11 CARSON: That's it. 12 MALE: Okay, I get yah. 13 CARSON: Ah, but if you have time, it probably 14 appropriate if you can wheel over here 15 after you get, you know, those phone calls 16 addressed cause you know, you know the 17 plan as well as anybody and because you 18 were away, ah, you missed out on the 19 planning exercise. 20 MALE: Okay. 21 CARSON: But ah, you have intimate knowledge of 22 all, you know our ninety three (93) plans. 23 MALE: Okay. 24 CARSON: And ah, they are very appropriate and you 25 know as this thing rolls along you're
141 probably going to be relieving somebody 2 somewhere. 3 MALE: Okay. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 MALE: So I'll I'll do that. 6 CARSON: Yeah, so you know, we went through an 7 exercise last Friday ah and setup some 8 plans because the intelligence was 9 supporting this. 10 MALE: Okay. 11 CARSON: And ah, so we took some steps and ah thank 12 goodness we did. 13 MALE: Okay yeah good. Now when you say so four 14 (4) are actually on ground but two (2) are 15 on duty right now. 16 CARSON: Right. 17 MALE: Like two (2) on days. 18 CARSON: Two (2) up and two (2) down. Yeah, twelve 19 (12) on and twelve (12) off. 20 MALE: Twelve (12) on, twelve (12) off. Okay. 21 Okay. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 MALE: (u/i) will address situation will stay 24 until resolved. 25 CARSON: Yep and I'm on the ground here and I will
151 be here. 2 MALE: Okay and I've got your number right. 3 CARSON: Yeah I don't they we've changed. 4 MALE: (u/i). 5 CARSON: Eh. 6 MALE: How do you want him to call to call me or 7 what. 8 CARSON: I'd prefer that. 9 MALE: Okay. 10 CARSON: Ah, and. 11 MALE: If he'll do that. 12 CARSON: Yeah he knows you and and ah like I if he 13 wants information from me I'd be glad to 14 talk to him, that's not a problem, but I 15 would, I would rather have some idea of 16 what he's looking for so we can be 17 prepared with that. 18 MALE: Let's leave it this way. 19 CARSON: Yeah. I'm already getting calls last 20 night from Rosemary UR. 21 MALE: Okay. 22 CARSON: Yeah. 23 MALE: I guess he was up all last night and he's 24 already got several phone calls. He 25 called me and he just let me know that
161 he's calling the Premiers and (u/i). 2 CARSON: Yep. 3 MALE: I guess he met with Wesser BUSH again on 4 Saturday. 5 CARSON: Oh, okay. 6 MALE: So he wants to call and say, look, what 7 we've got to do something and. 8 CARSON: Yeah. 9 MALE: It's now Provincial and so anyway I I'll 10 call him back (u/i). 11 CARSON: Okay. Well that's good and let me know 12 how you make out with him. I I I am 13 interested in his, in his feelings about 14 this. 15 MALE: Okay. 16 CARSON: Okay. 17 MALE: Oh good. 18 CARSON: Thanks. 19 MALE: Bye bye. 20 CARSON: Right oh. 21 22 End of conversation. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Now that call that we've just
171 listened to, the call at 8:27 with Staff Sergeant Lacroix 2 is noted in the -- is noted in the scribe note -- is 3 noted on the Tab 4 at the top of the page. The time is 4 8:20 and there's a seven (7) minute difference between 5 the time identified, 8:20:42, actually, the time 6 identified on the transcript and the note in the scribe 7 notes. 8 And, frankly, we'll see that often. 9 There'll be five (5) or six (6) minutes difference 10 between the time recorded on -- on the logger tape or 11 wherever it's recorded and the scribe notes, and were you 12 aware of that? 13 A: I wasn't aware there was a difference 14 in the recording of the time. 15 Q: And if there is a difference do you - 16 - do you have an understanding of why there might be a 17 difference? 18 A: Well, the time for the scribe notes 19 are as recorded by the scribe who, I suspect, is 20 referring to his personal watch or her watch. And the 21 time in regards to the phone call from logger tape, I 22 mean it's electronic time so it just depends on how those 23 clocks are set. I don't think there's any exact science 24 in how, like, the watches and clocks are certainly not 25 synchronized in any -- with any -- there's on direction
181 to synchronize time. 2 Q: So that at the beginning, everyone 3 involved didn't synchronize their watches and keep them 4 synchronized throughout? 5 A: No. There was never any discussion 6 about that. 7 Q: And in terms of the times, which 8 would be, in general, the more accurate time, the time on 9 the electronic recording or the scribe notes? 10 A: Well, the -- the electronic -- on the 11 logger tapes, I mean, the machine stamps the time. On 12 the scribe notes, it may be that I turned to the scribe 13 and said, you know, This is the information on the phone 14 call and they wrote the time down at that point, which 15 may be the conclusion of the phone call versus, you know, 16 the start of a phone call. 17 So, accuracy is probably more reflective 18 of the time stamp from the logger recorder, I would 19 suspect. 20 Q: Okay. And the note in the tape in 21 the -- at page 19 in the logger tape for this call is 22 very brief. 23 "John Carson received call from Wade 24 Lacroix, advised for ERT. We're trying 25 to contain it. Objective: to contain
191 and resolve it peacefully. No one in 2 community in is any danger as we have 3 adequate services present. At this 4 point request him to attend, as he is 5 aware of plans." 6 And the -- I know it's a long time ago and 7 you probably can't remember this particular call, but the 8 scribe at this point was Karen Shaw and did you instruct 9 her or would you -- did you instruct her to write down 10 this particular item or did she simply pick it up from 11 the call? 12 A: Quite frankly, it could be either and 13 it also could be a situation where she was taking one (1) 14 side of the conversation as I was speaking and I may have 15 said, make sure this is in the information. 16 Q: And when you were on the phone, was 17 the -- was it a speaker phone that the scribe could hear 18 both sides of the conversation or the scribe -- could the 19 -- was it a phone that she could only hear or he, as the 20 case may be, one (1) side of the conversation? 21 A: It was a standard handset, at no time 22 used on speaker phone. 23 Q: And the phones -- the telephones in 24 the mobile command unit, none of them were speaker 25 phones?
201 A: Quite frankly, I don't know if they 2 had that capability or not. 3 Q: And if we look just -- because this 4 is a -- is an example at Exhibit 427, which is at Tab 13 5 of your book, the handwritten scribe notes... 6 A: Yes? 7 Q: And the note that was inserted in the 8 typed log -- typed note is the same as in the handwritten 9 expect for the last line: 10 "We are only using ERT for perimeter 11 security. 12 And -- 13 A: The page number, sir? 14 Q: That's page 389 in Exhibit 427, 8:27. 15 A: Thank you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And that line's left out. 21 "We are only using ERT for perimeter 22 security, at this point. [Then] request 23 him attend, as he is aware of plans 24 [was inserted]." 25 Do you have any idea why the scribe left
211 that out? 2 A: None whatsoever. 3 Q: Then if I could -- in your 4 conversation with Wade Lacroix, he was talking about Mr. 5 Beaubien, the local MPP and you wanted him to deal with 6 Mr. Beaubien? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: "He" being Wade Lacroix? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And he was asking you about the -- 11 the ERT teams and a large formation and you note, "You 12 mean as a crowd control operation?" 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And the ERT teams that are used for a 15 crowd control operation is what was called the crowd 16 management unit? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And the crowd management unit ais, I 19 think we spoke the other day, is made up of two (2) ERT 20 teams headed by a Staff Sergeant? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And Wade Lacroix was a Staff Sergeant 23 trained for -- to head up a CMU? 24 A: Yes, he was. 25 Q: And at this point in time, you had no
221 intention of going into a crowd management unit 2 situation? 3 A: None whatsoever. 4 Q: And they were simply being used, the 5 ERT teams, for perimeter security? 6 A: Yes, basically Lacroix had been away 7 on vacation, as I understand it. It was his first day 8 back, so basically it was a -- this call was a briefing 9 of what we were -- kind of the status of the moment, is 10 probably the simplest terms. 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Then if I could -- on page 20 at 8:30 16 there's a note, 17 "Mark Wright advise he's going to 18 debrief 1 and 2 ERT. John Carson still 19 on phone. Request he let him know how 20 he makes out after phone calls. Mark 21 Wright advises Les Kobayashi gone to 22 get MTO, ten (10) barriers, to have 23 them on standby. John Carson to Mark 24 Wright: When it's time, we will take 25 enough ERT to set the same up."
231 And what is that referring to, sir? 2 A: In regards to the barriers? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: I believe the barriers we're talking 5 about there was setting barriers up along the edge of the 6 Park. It seems to me along the sandy parking lot, down 7 towards the beach area. It was to control access in and 8 out of the Park, as I recall. 9 Q: Okay. Now, at 8:34, there's a note 10 about Don Bell. 11 "Don Bell advises he's going to do 12 surveillance at the Park. Inspector 13 Carson: All we can do now." 14 And I note that in the scribe notes at 15 page 390, the handwritten scribe notes which is Exhibit 16 427, the scribe has noted: 17 "T.R., Don Bell bringing surveillance 18 van guy. [I can't read that] Anyone at 19 Park [then] J.C. - All we can do now." 20 So I take it "T.R." is Trevor Richardson? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the -- can you read that? Did 23 Don -- 24 A: It's -- 25 Q: -- Bell bringing --
241 A: Surveillance van guy. It says "White 2 eye", actually it should have been Whitehead. 3 Q: White head? 4 A: It's the officer's name, Whitehead. 5 It's just a bit of a mix up in names. "Anyone at Park", 6 then "J.C. - All we can do now". 7 Q: And that particular entry has been 8 trans -- when it's been put into the typed logger tape 9 does not include the reference to Don -- to Trevor 10 Richardson as being the source of the information, nor 11 does it refer to -- is it Constable Whiteside? 12 A: Whitehead. 13 Q: ...Whitehead, in that entry? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And why would that be? 16 A: I have no explanation for why it is 17 other than it's the essence of the message that the 18 scribe captured and took some literary license to get 19 down what she thought was relevant. 20 Q: And what was relevant was that Don 21 Bell was going to do surveillance at the Park? 22 A: Yes, and it's in keeping with, you 23 know, my earlier comments, you know, if people provide me 24 information or I provide direction as -- as to how that 25 is captured.
251 Q: Okay. Then, at 8:34 there's a 2 discussion with Les Kobayashi? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And the -- it's with respect to the 5 injunction. Were you -- I take it you were part of this 6 conversation? 7 A: I believe so, yes. 8 Q: And in the -- if we look at page 390 9 of Exhibit 427. 10 A: Yes? 11 Q: There's an entry, it's 09:34. I take 12 it from the fact that the next entry is 8:42 that the 13 scribe simply made a mistake in the time? 14 A: Yes, correct. 15 Q: And the scribe in this case has 16 identified the speakers, L.C., L.C. -- I take it's Les 17 Kobayashi? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: "Talked to lawyer, waiting for 20 injunction." 21 Then, J.C., I take it that's you? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Marcel Beaubien calling Premier and I 24 note that it's -- that's in the typed version. Inspector 25 Carson advised that Marcel Beaubien had been in contact
261 with Sergeant Wade Lacroix and he advised that he was 2 calling the Premier. And the handwritten note says: 3 "Marcel Beaubien calling Premier; 4 that's fine, sit tight. Get 5 intelligence info. [And the reference] 6 Get ERT guys working in Park. Get 7 discussions. Some people have to be 8 arrested. Crime guys take care of 9 this." 10 And I note that the scribes, after the 11 Premier's -- reference to the Premier, left out, "that's 12 fine." 13 A: That's -- that's correct. 14 Q: And I know it's a long time ago, but 15 what's your recollection as to what you -- what "that's 16 fine" refers to? 17 A: Well, obviously it's a -- a comment 18 that I made and I guess what I'm reflecting there is, 19 That's fine so he's calling the Premier and we're going 20 to move forward getting more intelligence information and 21 what our work plans will be. 22 And it was just a status update that they 23 had some idea of what was going on behind the scenes and 24 I was briefing the -- the people there of -- of what 25 information I had from Lacroix. But the -- the reference
271 to, "that's fine" is -- is, I guess more than anything 2 else, is probably more indifference than anything else. 3 Q: Okay. Then, L.K. which is, I take 4 it, Les Kobayashi again in the handwritten notes at page 5 390: 6 "Post signs, 'Park Closed.' Fine [then 7 J.C.] -- fine about posting signs. 8 Take it slow." 9 That line is not referred to in the typed 10 notes? 11 A: That's -- that's correct. 12 Q: And: 13 "Fine about posting signs, take it 14 slow." 15 What were you referring to there, sir? 16 A: Well, what I'm referring to, it's -- 17 that's good that we have the signs posted, but let's -- 18 let's be very methodical and take it one (1) step at a 19 time. Let's not -- not rush thing. 20 Q: Okay. Then, there's the entry to: 21 "Tom Bressette agrees with what we're 22 doing." 23 And then, 24 "Sergeant J.C. -- Sergeant Moffitt 25 (phonetic) advised they have
281 communication person to take over. 2 Communication to advise they rotate 3 people around once we get set up. 4 J.C.: D.G. tape with supplies to be 5 brought here." 6 Then there's an entry: 7 "Ask J.C. if he was to answer phone. 8 J.C.: Fine." 9 And all of that was admitted from the 10 typed version. 11 A: Omitted. 12 Q: Omitted, yes. 13 A: Yes, yes, yes. 14 Q: And why was that omitted from the 15 typed version? 16 A: My assumption would be that it's 17 irrelevant to a direction in regards to the events that 18 are taking place. It's -- it's simply logistics. 19 Q: Okay. Then there's an entry at 8:50: 20 "8:48 Don -- Grant advised that Ken 21 Williams, Reeve of Bosanquet is here to 22 meet with him. Inspector Carson met." 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Excuse me, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh.
291 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It's not as much 2 by way of an objection as is that the seeking of 3 clarification. It's just that Deputy Commissioner Carson 4 has testified that he assumes that the reasons things 5 were omitted from the typed version is X or Y. 6 And if the assumption is based on pure 7 speculation versus he's been advised by the author or the 8 scribe notes, there's a difference and I'm simply asking 9 if My Friend, in seeking those explanations, could get 10 the basis for them. 11 Because it's been Deputy Carson's evidence 12 that he assumed something. I just -- I'm not -- it's not 13 clear to me certainly in the evidence as to where that 14 comes from. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: I think you gave us -- you did give 18 evidence as to your instructions to the scribe and your 19 evidence as to the practice of the scribe as you 20 understood it and when you say -- make the statement, I 21 assume something, on what basis did you make that 22 statement? 23 A: I make that assumption from my own 24 recollection. I -- I've had no discussion during or 25 since 1995 with the scribes involved as to why they did
301 or didn't capture notes in a certain way. 2 So when I say "I assume," I'm -- it's my 3 best guess based on the direction I gave them and what 4 actually enters into the typewritten form from the 5 handwritten form, which seems to me a common sense 6 approach to complying with my direction. 7 Q: And the direction, as you told us 8 yesterday, was -- could you repeat what your direction 9 was again? 10 A: In any incident that I've been 11 involved or had been in that time period, the direction 12 would be the scribe is expected to capture all 13 information being provided to me that has a direct 14 relation to this event or where I give direction to 15 anyone else. 16 Q: And with respect to the types of 17 meetings that you had with Les Kobayashi and the meeting 18 now at 8:50 with Ken Williams, what were their -- what 19 were the instructions to the scribe with respect to those 20 types of meetings? 21 A: Well, I wouldn't have given specific 22 direction relative to any particular meeting. I would 23 just have had expected the scribe to capture the 24 information, for lack of a better term, on the run. 25 The only time there would be specific
311 direction for the most part would be where I had made a 2 telephone call or received a telephone call and the 3 scribe would not have heard the third party, I may have 4 turned to the scribe and said, Capture this, and provide 5 the direction as to the information I wanted captured. 6 Q: And Ken Reeves -- Ken Williams, 7 excuse me, that's referred to at 8:48 and then at 8:50, 8 is not the Reeve of Bosanquet Township. He's the 9 administrator, as I understand it? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And you did meet with him? 12 A: Oh, yes. 13 Q: And the -- one (1) of the questions 14 that he asked was, 15 "Ken Williams wanted to know if a 16 notice of trespass was served on the 17 occupants, advised that they would be 18 getting a court injunction regarding 19 Matheson Drive." 20 And can you tell us what that is about? 21 A: There was some discussion about 22 Matheson Drive and of course, there was issues there 23 about access at Matheson Drive and, you know, the process 24 that would be necessary to deal with the blocking of that 25 roadway.
321 Q: The note in the first paragraph 2 indicated: 3 "Ken Williams advised that he had been 4 talking to the Mayor about the 5 situation. Inspector Carson asked Ken 6 Williams what we can do for them. 7 Inspector Carson advised him that the 8 area is cordoned off, lots of officers 9 available. Public safety is 10 important." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then at the bottom of the page: 13 "Inspector Carson stated that they are 14 discussing barricading the area. For 15 his information only. Discussion was 16 made about getting an injunction." 17 Then at the top of the page: 18 "Ken Williams advised that his council 19 will agree with getting injunction. 20 Inspector Carson advised that we are 21 dealing with the Park issue, not the 22 road issue, but have to be prepared for 23 that. 24 And the road there as being referred to is 25 Matheson Drive?
331 A: Yes, sir, it is. 2 Q: "Ken Williams wanted to know what 3 they can help in this situation. 4 Inspector Carson advised him to talk to 5 the layers to get them to start 6 preparing the documents for the 7 injunction. 8 Explained that the party involved has 9 to be made aware of the injunction. 10 There has to be a reason to have the 11 injunction, e.g., trees down in the 12 road. It has to be confirmed. 13 Inspector Carson said heavy equipment 14 may be needed, but not at this point." 15 And that's a discussion -- comments you 16 made to Mr. Williams? 17 A: Yes, I was trying to alleviate his 18 concerns and at the same time, inform him of the 19 processes, the status of how we were proceeding with the 20 Provincial Park issue and to turn his mind to the 21 preparations necessary, if it was necessary to consider 22 an injunction for the roadway at a later point. 23 Q: Okay. And if I could just take you 24 to page 392 of Exhibit 427. 25 A: Yes.
341 Q: At the top of the page there's an 2 entry, starting at 8:50: 3 "K. William talking to Mayor re: 4 situation. J.C. [that's you, or] K.W. 5 talking to Mayor re: situation." 6 K.W. is Ken Williams? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: "J.C. 'Basically what we can do for 9 you, cordon off -- off area, lots of 10 officers available, public safety.'" 11 And then there's a line: 12 "People won't be outside of Park." 13 And that line's not included in the scribe 14 note; that's correct? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And what -- do you recall what you 17 were referring to, "people won't be outside of Park." 18 A: The occupiers. 19 Q: The occupiers? Then... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: The discussion continued: 24 "Ken Williams wondered about 25 barricades. John Carson advised that
351 people can go to their homes. We just 2 want to know where they're going. They 3 discussed the people going into the 4 Park." 5 And the -- the barricades -- at this 6 point, were the -- the checkpoints -- some of the 7 checkpoints were up, the one at Silver Birch, I think -- 8 the Silver Birch cottages? 9 A: Yes, I believe most of the 10 checkpoints were in place by this point. 11 Q: And -- so that would be the four (4) 12 checkpoints with respect to the A, B, C, and D? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Then there's a reference that -- 15 discussion goes on but it indicates that: 16 "Inspector Carson and Ken Williams 17 discussed Outer ride -- Outer Drive 18 area. Going to play it by ear." 19 Then, if you turn to page 394 of Exhibit 20 427, the note for you in the middle of the page with 21 respect of the discussion on Outer Drive indicates: 22 "J.C: Get controls. Not really a 23 safety issue. Any aggravation public 24 not in, have to play it by ear. Not a 25 concern, Outer Drive."
361 The words, "not a concern" are left out of 2 the typed scribe notes? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And what were you referring to when 5 you said, "not a concern?" 6 A: I believe that we felt there weren't 7 any issues on that side of the Military Base, that the 8 focus was over on the Park side. 9 Q: Thank you. Then it -- you go on to 10 say: 11 "John Carson informs Ken Williams that 12 MNR probably won't get an injunction 13 today. He states that we would like to 14 negotiate them out of the Park; it is 15 our preference." 16 And then there's an exchange of numbers: 17 "John Carson informs Ken Williams that 18 this area is a command area, not an 19 operations area. John Carson gives him 20 the new number for the front office." 21 And I take it -- why did you make this 22 statement to Mr. Williams? 23 A: Well, because the Forest Detachment 24 provides policing for the township of Bosanquet and I 25 just wanted him to understand that the Forest Detachment
371 was now a command area as opposed to an operational 2 Detachment, just so he'd understand for calls for regular 3 service were being provided from the office in Grand 4 Bend. 5 Q: And if I could take you to page 395 6 of Exhibit 427. 7 A: Yes? 8 Q: With the -- with respect to the 9 exchange of telephone numbers, there are some items: 10 "JC: Do not give it out. 11 KW: Okay. 12 JC: Cell no. 671-6086. Cell phone 13 secure, no soon." 14 That wasn't included in the typed logger 15 notes? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Then, there's a note: 18 "Ken Williams inquires about number of 19 people we have here. John Carson 20 states about sixty (60)." 21 And then, if you go to page 396, there's a 22 note in the handwritten scribe notes: 23 "KW: Not much different, start 24 injunction. 25 JC: Trees down, get them out of way.
381 Play it by ear." 2 And that's not included in the typed 3 scribe notes? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: The next line: 6 "JC: Same wavelength like you are..." 7 is included in the typed scribe notes? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: Then, at... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: My Friend Mr. Horton points out 14 that... 15 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I 16 don't know if I'm the only one who's having trouble 17 following the evidence the way -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 19 difficult for everybody, but there's no other way. 20 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: No, I -- I 21 understand, but it just -- I just wanted to make the 22 observation that at least in my attempt to follow the 23 evidence, things seem to be in a different place in the 24 handwritten notes than in the typed notes. And so it's 25 not just a question of things not being included in one
391 and the other, but in some instances they are in 2 different places. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm finding 4 the same thing. 5 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: So therefore -- so 6 therefore, in leading the Witness, which I think we're 7 all -- we'd all like to get on with it, but the Witness 8 may be making assumptions that things are not there and 9 answering the questions because they're not in the right 10 order, but they may be somewhere else in the scribe 11 notes. 12 I just -- I just point that out, and if 13 there's an explanation or something, I would be happy to 14 receive it, but otherwise we may be spending a lot of 15 time on a false premise that if something is not in a 16 certain order, it's not there. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: There was a -- the point that My 22 Friend, Mr. Horton, makes is a -- I was trying to 23 identify some of these things that were missing -- that 24 were in the handwritten notes but in the typed notes; 25 that one happens to be there.
401 There's a note about playing it by ear. 2 Ken Williams -- there's a note on page 22, 3 "Ken Williams brought up declaring the 4 area a state of emergency. John Carson 5 advised that he didn't think so." 6 And what was that referring to? 7 A: Well, he suggested that the 8 municipality declare a state of emergency and I cautioned 9 him to not do that; that in my view that was not 10 necessary. I was trying to, for lack of a better term, 11 calm him down. He was somewhat animated about the 12 situation that was occurring. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: I was trying to assure him that we 15 had the situation in hand and that wasn't necessary to 16 take that step. 17 Q: Okay. Then at 9:02, Mr. Kobayashi is 18 back. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And there's a discussion about all -- 21 "Lieutenant Colin Mack Campbell shut 22 all the pumps off at the Park in case 23 the occupants decided to keep them 24 running." 25 And what's that refer to?
411 A: It was a -- it appears Colonel 2 Campbell had a concern about the -- the water supply to 3 the military base and was shutting the pumps down. 4 Q: Then there's a -- 5 "Mark wright brought up the issue of 6 intelligence logs to keep them going. 7 Inspector Carson agreed. ERT sergeant 8 to get a daily report of what happened 9 and give it to Janet Vandenberg." 10 And that's the intelligence log that we 11 referred to and was marked as an exhibit, Exhibit 413 at 12 Tab 5 of your book. Is that what's being referred to 13 here, sir? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I'm not sure which book we're 18 referring to, sir. 19 Q: In the same book, book 1. It's the 20 big, black book. 21 A: Oh, yes. 22 Q: Or, when I look at that, though, 23 there -- if you look at that, there -- Exhibit... 24 A: It could fall into either log, 25 whether it's under Tab 4 or under Tab 5, depending on the
421 information but it would fall into one (1) of those two 2 (2) categories, the information that the ERT personnel 3 would capture and submit. 4 Q: But if I look at the -- if you look 5 at page 91 and 92 of Exhibit 13, the log that starts on 6 July 29th, it's Inquiry document number 2002890, there's 7 a -- 8 A: Which page of that, sir? 9 Q: It's page 91, the last two (2) pages, 10 sir. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: There's an entry for September 4th, 13 identifying a number of vehicles on that page and then 14 another entry, the same entry continues on the top of the 15 next page and there are no other entries in this 16 particular log. 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And then if we go to Exhibit 411, at 19 Tab 4 of the black book in front of you, Inquiry document 20 2002889, there are entries for -- on the -- if you go to 21 the last four (4) pages at Tab -- there appears to be an 22 entry at page 66, September 3rd. The next entry is 23 September 6th at eleven o'clock. 24 And that's September 6th -- these, excuse 25 me, I'm in the wrong page. If you go to page 63, it
431 stops at August the 10th '95, Exhibit 411 and then 2 Exhibit 413 appear to take over for August but there are 3 no entries for September 5th and 6th? 4 A: That appears to be the case. 5 Q: So whatever the instruction, the log 6 wasn't maintained? 7 A: That -- that appears to be the issue. 8 Q: Is there another -- was there another 9 log at the time? 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: Then you asked Inspector Carson 12 wanted to know about any incidents that happened 13 overnight. Detective Sergeant Wright stated that some of 14 the occupants mooned to some of the members and that was 15 the extent of what had happened overnight? 16 A: That was the report, yes. 17 Q: Then you called Staff Sergeant -- 18 Sergeant Babbitt? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the transcript for that call is 21 at Tab 5. It's a call at 9:04. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
441 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I guess there's a 4 slight technical problem. We have to make sure that it's 5 -- when I know what's the beginning of the tape and it's 6 not coming on. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 9 10 John CARSON and Doug BABBITT 11 12 September 5, 1995 13 TIME: 09:04:10 hours 14 Track 3.wav 15 16 CARSON: (to background) Oh finally going through 17 to 18 BABBITT I can't believe it. 19 MALE: (In background) Thanks for checking. 20 BABBITT: Sergeant BABBITT. 21 CARSON: Yeah, this is CNN calling. 22 BABBITT: Yes. 23 CARSON: How are ya? 24 BABBITT: Pretty good. 25 CARSON: John CARSON here.
451 BABBITT: (laughs) You dogger. 2 CARSON: (Laughing). 3 BABBITT: I was going to say God you sound close for 4 CNN. 5 CARSON: (Laughing) Just so that you know all calls 6 to me are are on recorder. 7 BABBITT: Okay. 8 CARSON: (Laughs). 9 BABBITT: That's good. 10 CARSON: Just I just so you know I just want you to 11 know ah but I'm available direct at seven 12 (7) eight (8) six (6) twelve (12) six (6) 13 two (2). If you give that out to anybody 14 you lose your life. 15 BABBITT: Okay. 16 CARSON: Okay. 17 BABBITT: That's a direct line. We're getting lots 18 of inquiries but nothing of a serious 19 nature. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 BABBITT: Apparently the natives have they told us 22 why they're there. Like I've been saying 23 that no they officially haven't told us. 24 They say well we hear it's an Indian 25 burial ground. I said well maybe, maybe
461 that's what they are saying but they 2 haven't told us anything officially. 3 CARSON: That's right that's right they just say 4 it's their land. 5 BABBITT: Yeah okay. 6 CARSON: Okay. 7 BABBITT: Alright I just wondered if maybe there is 8 something there I didn't know but that's 9 good. 10 CARSON: Right we have we have to try and arrange 11 some meetings and discuss those issues. 12 BABBITT: Okay. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 BABBITT: (u/i) that's the other thing you know I'm 15 telling him that we're going to be meeting 16 with the Ministry of Natural Resources 17 officials sometime this morning. Is that 18 not true. 19 CARSON: Yeah, I already have. They've been here. 20 BABBITT: Okay. 21 CARSON: Yeah. 22 BABBITT: Um and they're asking you know what was 23 the outcome of that meeting. I said I 24 don't know cause they haven't had it. 25 CARSON: Right. Well we're, we're ah working
471 towards a court injunction. 2 BABBITT: Okay. 3 CARSON: Okay. The Ministry ah is ah ah going to 4 ah ah pursue ah a Court injunction to ah. 5 BABBITT: Okay. 6 CARSON: Against the natives. 7 BABBITT: Is that is that okay to ah to say that 8 now. 9 CARSON: Yep, yep, yep. 10 BABBITT: Okay. 11 CARSON: Yep it's no secret. 12 BABBITT: Okay I just don't want to say something 13 and then end up. 14 CARSON: No I hear yah I hear yah that's fine. 15 BABBITT: Okay and then they said they're going to 16 arrange for me to bring my computer from 17 Chatham down here. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 BABBITT: And ah. 20 CARSON: You you have a fax over there no. 21 BABBITT: Ah (u/i) the fax is all setup and 22 everything else. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 BABBITT: It's a private line. 25 CARSON: Okay.
481 BABBITT: In here and we're going to get another 2 line for the MNR for their um e-mail. 3 CARSON: Okay okay so you're all you're in good 4 shape then. 5 BABBITT: Yep Bill DENNIS is looking after us. I 6 was upset this morning and he took me 7 under his wind and said Doug, you didn't 8 ask. 9 CARSON: Well there you go see. 10 BABBITT: And I said that I've asked now Bill so 11 he's looking after me. 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 MALE: (laughing). 14 CARSON: Well that that just you know, ask and you 15 receive. 16 BABBITT: I you don't have to listen to my babbling. 17 CARSON: No no that's okay. 18 BABBITT: (laughing). 19 CARSON: Okay that's good if ah like I say if you 20 have any concerns that are coming up like 21 I I don't have any problem if you call me 22 direct. Uh 23 BABBITT: Okay. 24 CARSON: You can do that. I you may get ah you'll 25 get probably Bunk okay.
491 BABBITT: Yep. 2 CARSON: And ah, he may tell you I'm ten-six (10-6) 3 or not ten-six (10-6). 4 BABBITT: Yep. 5 CARSON: Whatever and if I'm available I'll 6 certainly try and address it as quickly as 7 we can. Ah we've had a I've had ah for 8 your information, we've had ah (u/i) if 9 there is if asked we've had ah direct 10 contact with ah the Township of or the 11 Town of Bosanquest. 12 BABBITT: Okay. 13 CARSON: And ah Kettle ah Point ah Chief Tom 14 BRESSETTE. 15 BABBITT: Okay. 16 car Okay. 17 BABBITT: Alright. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 BABBITT: Thanks John. 20 CARSON: Thanks. 21 BABBITT: Yep. Bye Bye. 22 23 End of conversation. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
501 Q: And that conversation with -- in that 2 conversation Sergeant Babbitt asked you about the -- an 3 Indian burial ground. The information that, as he put 4 it, apparently the Natives: 5 "Have they told us why they're there? 6 Like, I've been saying that no, they 7 officially haven't told us. They say, 8 Well, we're here, it's an Indian burial 9 ground. I said, Well, maybe -- maybe 10 that's what they're saying, but they 11 haven't told us anything official. 12 Carson: That's right. That's right, 13 they just say it's their land." 14 And at this point in time had you been 15 told by anyone after the beginning of the occupation 16 about an Indian -- a burial ground on the Park? 17 A: Not that I'm aware of, no. 18 Q: And prior to September 4th, had you 19 been told by anyone that there was an indication that 20 there might be a burial ground in the Park? 21 A: There had been commentary to that 22 affect made by, I believe, some of the occupiers, not to 23 me directly, but certainly I was made aware, but there 24 was no indication that, in fact, that was the case. I 25 think if you recall, Tom Bressette and I had some
511 discussion about that and there was no -- no reason for 2 me to believe that that, in fact, was the case. 3 Q: Okay. Now, then at 9:25 on page 24 4 there's a note and is this a -- it's John Carson, Trevor 5 Richardson, Mark Wright, Bill Dennis, Brad Seltzer, Stan 6 Korosec, Don Bell and that -- what does this refer to? 7 A: This is a briefing. 8 Q: And this is a briefing that took 9 place on a regular basis? 10 A: Yes, we were attempting to -- to do 11 that. This was one (1) of the earlier ones and I suspect 12 towards the end of that briefing we would have set a time 13 for the next briefing. 14 So, what we were trying to do was set up a 15 series of ongoing meetings to discuss the status at the 16 time, discuss the things that needed to be done, provide 17 direction and then agree to meet at a certain point, 18 usually within the next couple of hours to review how the 19 progress is moving along. 20 Q: And the first entry is with respect 21 to doing surveillance using binoculars, taking pictures 22 to try and identify people and that's -- if I could take 23 you to page 399 of Exhibit 427... 24 A: Yes? 25 Q: In the typed -- in the handwritten
521 version of the notes, there's a entry: 2 "J: John, Jimmy Dyke, Whitehead do 3 surveillance, binocular camera thing 4 identified people." 5 Is -- who's being referred to there, "J", 6 do you know? 7 A: I'm not sure, but it appears in the 8 note -- in the hand or the scribe notes, the typed 9 version that it's Trevor Richardson stating that. 10 Q: Oh, perhaps that's a "T" and I -- but 11 the typed version doesn't include the names of the 12 officers who are going to do the work? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And that was Mr. Whitehead and Mr. 15 Dyke? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: Then one (1) of the things that you 18 wanted was to get a boat from Grand Bend? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And a boat was ultimately obtained? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then Mr. Richardson advised they 23 were preparing warrants for Roderick George and Abraham 24 David George and Stewart George. 25 Is that correct?
531 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that's with respect to the 3 incidents on September 4th? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And then you advised the group: 6 "John Carson advises that Tom 7 Bressette's on board. Agrees, thinks 8 they're criminals. Ken Williams are 9 getting 10 legal advice for an injunction on 11 Matheson Drive. 12 Town of Bosanquet has advised they will 13 provide any heavy equipment that is 14 needed to remove trees from Matheson 15 Drive. Have a status check on the 16 trees in the road, but do not 17 broadcast. Have one (1) of the ERT 18 guys check it." 19 And then if I could take you to page 400 20 in Exhibit 427, the handwritten notes. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: There's -- at the last -- in the 23 middle of the page in this -- with respect to this 24 particular entry, there's some handwriting: 25 "[Something] security they will do.
541 Have someone dressed like Stan do it." 2 Do you know what the first word is? 3 A: "Adequate security they will do. 4 Have someone dressed like Stan do it." 5 Q: And that's not included in the scribe 6 notes, typed scribe notes? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: I can't see it. 10 Q: What's included is: 11 "Have one (1) of the ERT guys check it 12 out."? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Then Richardson, back to page 24, 15 "Richardson enquires about MNR. John 16 Carson replies MNR is working on an 17 injunction. Trevor Richardson requests 18 that we have them fax it, we will need 19 it." 20 And then at the top of page 25: 21 "John Carson discussed issues about 22 injunction. Stated that the party of 23 the injunction is against. Has the 24 option to appear. Doubtful it will 25 happen today. Advised that sergeant --
551 Staff Sergeant Lacroix has been in 2 contact with Marcel Beaubien, local 3 member of parliament. He is updating 4 the Premier on the situation." 5 And if I could take you to page -- at the 6 bottom of page 400 and the top of page 401 of the typed 7 written -- the handwritten notes, there's a word 8 "federal" that's missing from -- that's included in the 9 handwritten notes that's not included in the typewritten 10 version. 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And "federal," what's being referred 13 to by "federal"? 14 A: That would be the Federal Member of 15 Parliament, I would suspect. 16 Q: And that the person who -- Rosemary 17 Ur was the Federal Member of Parliament, and she had 18 called you? 19 A: She did, yes. 20 Q: Then in any other of the incidents 21 that you were involved in, barricaded persons, had -- and 22 there were a number before this period of time you've 23 told us, or other incidents; had you ever received a call 24 from either the Federal Member of the Parliament or the 25 local MPP?
561 A: Never. 2 Q: And the -- with respect to the 3 incidents that you were involved in, they were incidents 4 involving individuals? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And could you just tell us a little 7 about the incidents you'd been involved in before? 8 A: Well, usually the incidents -- well, 9 I guess -- well I guess maybe some incidents since may 10 differ but prior to that time the majority of the calls 11 where barricaded gun persons, suicidal individuals, 12 hostage type situations; usually violent confrontations 13 gone bad, those types of incidents. 14 Now usually those are resolved in a matter 15 of, I believe probably the longest one we had was maybe 16 thirty-six (36) forty-eight (48) hours but generally 17 resolved within twelve (12) hours. 18 But even in those cases and there have 19 been some that were completed say on other First Nations 20 territories like Moraviantown or Six Nations, we had 21 representatives of council involved. 22 And it would not be unusual maybe to not 23 have -- it would be unusual to have a Member of 24 Parliament but it would not be unusual to have a local 25 representative. Particularly if you're in a community
571 where we had to do evacuation. Or if it was a community 2 that disrupted the business area of the community. 3 And there were certainly the odd occasion 4 where we would assist the municipal department where they 5 would have some contact with their municipal officials. 6 So it was usually that kind of a relationship to -- to 7 help broadcast the message. 8 Often times, for instance, in a rail 9 derailment, I've been incident commander in those kinds 10 of situations where the reeves of the community would be 11 involved and they would speak to the media and look for 12 our guidance and there would be discussion about 13 necessity of evacuation, the length of time that was 14 necessary. So it was all around community interest. 15 Q: Okay. And did those community -- 16 engage the community interest as opposed to dealing with 17 the provincial and federal property? 18 A: That would be fair. 19 Q: Now there's a note: 20 "John Carson wants preparation for a 21 meeting with the occupants. Wants Brad 22 Seltzer in on it to be a spokesperson. 23 Check with Lorne Smith on his 24 availability to be part of the 25 negotiations. Wants to keep the
581 negotiator at lower levels such as a 2 sergeant or staff sergeant." 3 And that's with respect to what; this 4 entry? 5 A: We were -- we wanted to get dialogue 6 established with the occupiers and Brad Seltzer as -- 7 well he -- he was identified as a negotiator but not 8 necessarily a -- he's a crisis negotiator as opposed to a 9 land claim negotiator. 10 And I hope I can differentiate the two (2) 11 different tasks, but he has a very high ability to 12 establish relationships and -- and speak to people. And 13 he's one that along with Lorne Smith who had a -- a very 14 high knowledge of the area and the people involved that 15 thought they would be two (2) very good individuals to 16 try to establish some contact. 17 Q: And then the reference to keep the 18 negotiator at lower levels such as sergeant or staff 19 sergeant? 20 A: Well, what I wanted to do was 21 establish some dialogue. But I wanted to establish, for 22 instance, at a sergeant rank or -- or a staff sergeant 23 level because I didn't want the necessity for myself to 24 have to go out and start doing the negotiations, because 25 then that precludes my ability to do the other tasks that
591 are necessary. 2 And the way negotiations usually work is 3 someone tries to find out what the issue is, they bring 4 it back and then we'll see how we can address those 5 concerns. 6 So it was just trying to, you know, set 7 the ground rules for how we could, you know, work it 8 through, should we able -- be able to establish dialogue. 9 Q: And then there's a note: 10 "John Carson gather information on 11 what's going on in the Park, whether we 12 can people in there. Want to get ERT 13 members in the Park and keep them 14 there." 15 And what's that referring to? 16 A: That goes back to the 17 discussion earlier about attempting to cohabit in -- in 18 the Park and whether that was feasible or not. And 19 basically it was trying to develop some information to -- 20 to -- to look at that option, but, in fact, that never 21 came to pass. 22 Q: Okay. Then the bottom of the page, 23 and I'm skipping over some of these entries, Inspector -- 24 Deputy Carson. If there's any entries that I skip over 25 that you would like to draw to the Commissioner's
601 attention, please do so. 2 The -- then there's a note: 3 "Stan Korosec inquires: what about 4 barriers? 5 John Carson: MNR arranging for 6 barriers to be delivered. Put barriers 7 on beach access, Base side." 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And what's that referring to? It's 10 the barriers I think you've spoken about before? 11 A: Yes, and -- and I -- I guess I stand 12 to be corrected, because I was thinking in my earlier 13 thoughts anyway, that we're talking about access to the 14 beach area by the Sandy Parking Lot, but this indicates 15 we're talking about access to the beach area on the 16 Military Base side of the Park that would be adjacent to 17 Matheson Drive. 18 Q: And do you recall what the purpose of 19 putting the barriers on the beach access, Base side, was? 20 A: Just to control the flow of traffic. 21 Q: From the Base side of the beach to 22 the Park side of the beach? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Now, that's assuming that you could 25 go down Matheson Drive or along the beachfront to put the
611 barriers in place? 2 A: Yes, there were some strong 3 assumptions there. 4 Q: And on September 5th, that had not -- 5 did not happen? 6 A: It did not occur. 7 Q: And -- nor on September 6th? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: And it never occurred? 10 A: Never occurred. 11 Q: Then, there's -- at the top of page 12 26, there's a reference: 13 "Trevor Richardson suggested that any 14 vehicles we can get to can be towed. 15 John Carson: Tow the cars out of 16 there. Ask Sergeant Korosec if there 17 was any ERT concerns. Stan Korosec 18 advised good bodies will be a 19 confrontation if it goes." 20 And what is that referring to? 21 A: I believe that there -- that the 22 discussion there is about if we towed some vehicles that 23 we were probably going to be faced with a confrontation 24 while were doing that. 25 Q: And where were the vehicles -- the
621 vehicles that were being towed, where were they? 2 A: I -- and -- and this is an assumption 3 again on my part, but I believe we're talking about this 4 barrier installation and vehicles in and around that 5 area, if there were vehicles left in the way there. 6 Q: Okay. And on September the 5th, were 7 any vehicles towed in and around the Park? 8 A: None. 9 Q: On September 6th, were any vehicles 10 towed in and around the Park? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: Then: 13 "John Carson: If we get an 14 opportunity to get in, arrest suspects, 15 get in and get out with them. Mark 16 Wright advises getting a warrant for 17 Glenn George. Get pictures to show the 18 Number 3 District officers who have 19 just arrived." 20 And that's -- what's that referring to? 21 A: That's referring to the persons that 22 we were in the process of getting the warrants for. 23 Q: And if I could take you to page 402 24 of Exhibit 427... 25
631 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: There's a reference at the top of the 4 page: 5 "Three (3) guys won't know anyone." 6 That's not been carried over into the 7 scribe notes. What -- that's attributed to you, what -- 8 do you recall that statement? 9 A: The -- the essence of that statement 10 on page 26, I believe, is captured by, "Get pictures to 11 show the Number 3 District officers who have just 12 arrived." 13 Q: And your concern was what? 14 A: Identifying the persons who would be 15 subject of arrest. 16 Q: And then there's a note: 17 "John Carson advised that St. John's 18 have provided an ambulance. Bill 19 Dennis advised that the ambulance was 20 on standby. John Carson advised that 21 the St. John's Ambulance can be used 22 for twenty-four (24) hour coverage and 23 can be driven by our Members. Have it 24 down at scene." 25 And if I could take you to the scribe
641 notes at page 402, there's an entry: 2 "St. Johns have stuff, generator here. 3 Ambulance here. Our group can drive 4 it." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: Our guys. 8 Q: "Our guys can drive it." The 9 reference to "generator here" has been admitted. What -- 10 do you recall today what your reference to "generator 11 here" was to? 12 A: I -- I believe the generator had to 13 do with a generator being used down at the TOC site -- 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: -- at the MNR parking lot. 16 Q: And was there an actual ambulance -- 17 St. John's ambulance at the TOC site at the MNR parking 18 lot on September 5th? 19 A: Apparently what it was, was a St. 20 John van. I was of the mistaken impression, quite 21 frankly, that it was a -- a -- an equipped ambulance, but 22 in fact it was a van with very -- with some equipment on 23 board, but not equipped as a basic ambulance would be. 24 Q: And when did you learn that your 25 assumption that it was a fully equipped ambulance was
651 wrong? 2 A: Several years later. 3 Q: After the incident? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Then there's a reference -- John -- 6 third reference from the bottom: 7 "John Carson: Once we get in the Park, 8 remember public safety. 9 Stan Korosec: Put as many in the -- 10 people in the Park as possible." 11 And again, what's that referring to? 12 A: Again, that was the strategy around 13 the possibility of cohabitating in the Park, and putting 14 officers to remain in there. 15 Q: All right. And then at the bottom of 16 the page: 17 "Mark Wright arranging for a chopper to 18 attend." 19 And that's a helicopter? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: And why did you want a helicopter? 22 A: We wanted to be able to have the 23 ability to monitor from the air, to put an observer up 24 there and also to video, to determine how many people 25 were in the Park at any given time.
661 Q: And in fact, at the top of the next 2 page, Mark Wright states that it's a way to see activity 3 in the Park? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And who was Inspector Roberston who's 6 referred to on page 27? 7 A: He was an inspector responsible for, 8 I believe we called it field coordination at that time. 9 But the -- the branch at general headquarters in Orillia 10 that provided the air services for the organization. 11 Q: Okay. Then there's a note: 12 "Bill Dennis advised that he is ranging 13 -- arranging for a computer for 14 Sergeant Babbit to be used for 15 preparing media releases. Going to 16 keep Staff Sergeant Bouwman informed 17 because people are calling him." 18 And Staff Sergeant Bouwman, at this point, 19 was the Detachment Commander in Forest who had been moved 20 to Grand Bend? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: Then there's a note: 23 "Stan Korosec asked about the use of 24 the TRU team. 25 John Carson: Get an assessment of the
671 situation. Every hour have a briefing 2 so everyone knows what's going on." 3 What is the reference to the TRU team, the 4 use of the TRU team? 5 A: I don't recall what the particular 6 reference was to, but at this point in time there was no 7 assignment that was relevant to a TRU -- a TRU team 8 tasking. 9 Q: Then Mark Wright -- there's a note 10 third from the bottom: 11 "Mark Wright brought up the issue of 12 having an MNR representative attend our 13 hourly reading -- meetings. 14 John Carson stated, 'Yeah, you're 15 right. We should have a representative 16 here.'" 17 And did that happen? Did a representative 18 of MNR start to attend your hourly meetings? 19 A: Yes. For the most part Les Kobayashi 20 attended pretty regularly. He, I think I alluded 21 earlier, was the Superintendent of the Pinery and 22 Ipperwash Provincial Parks. 23 And that would provide him the opportunity 24 to be aware, provide input as he knew it, and of course 25 to keep his superiors informed as to the status of the
681 ongoing occupation. 2 Q: Then Brad Seltzer brings up the issue 3 of the negotiator. And at the top of page 28 is the 4 reference -- at the bottom of page 27: 5 "Brad Seltzer stated that the 6 negotiator should know what's going on 7 and that the negotiator shouldn't 8 change, it should be the same one all 9 along. 10 John Carson advised that that was a 11 good idea." 12 And what did you understand was being 13 suggested by Mr. Seltzer at this point? 14 A: It was just a matter of keeping the - 15 - the lead negotiator in the loop, that if we had to 16 press the into action in a crisis negotiation role, that 17 there wouldn't be a need to bring somebody up to speed, 18 they'd already know what's happening. 19 Q: Okay. Then a note: 20 "Mark Wright wants to have Vinnie 21 George meet with the occupants at noon 22 hour." 23 That's Constable Vince George? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: "John Carson instructed Brad Seltzer
691 to go with him. Mark Wright to check 2 with Stan Korosec and have Vinnie 3 attend here at 11:00 hours." 4 And as I understand it, Brad Seltzer and 5 Vince George did not go at noon that day? 6 A: I don't -- 7 Q: Perhaps, we'll get to it. Do you 8 recall? 9 A: I couldn't tell you from the top of 10 my head, I'd have to check further in the notes. 11 Q: Then at Tab 6 of the book in front of 12 you there's a telephone conversation that you had, that's 13 referred to at 9:51 hours in this book. But on the 14 actual -- at Tab 6 the reference is to 9:43 and the 15 actual line -- the actual tape that we've got starts at 16 page 2 where you answer the phone "hello". 17 And again, with respect to the times here, 18 there's about seven (7), eight (8) minutes difference in 19 the times. And the logger tape, I think you said 20 earlier, would be the more accurate time? 21 A: Correct. At least consistent anyhow. 22 Q: At least consistent? And this is a 23 briefing by you of Superintendent Parkin? 24 A: Yes, it appears he called me and I 25 gave him an update.
701 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 John CARSON and Tony PARKIN 4 5 September 5, 1995 6 TIME: 09:43:48 hours 7 Track 1.wav 8 9 CARSON: Hello. 10 PARKIN: Good morning John. 11 CARSON: How are yah? 12 PARKIN: Well I'm good. 13 CARSON: Good good. 14 PARKIN: And I don't like to be bothering you. 15 CARSON: No that's no problem as a matter of fact I 16 wanted to call you guys ah right shortly. 17 We just had a little briefing here and I 18 was ah doing one of natures important 19 things. 20 PARKIN: Okay just before you get on with that. 21 CARSON: Yeah. 22 PARKIN: Um. We were in here ah talking. 23 CARSON: Uh huh. 24 PARKIN: Um. Basically what we don't want to 25 bother you.
711 CARSON: Yes. 2 PARKIN: What we would like is ah if you like ah if 3 you can call me. 4 CARSON: Yes. 5 PARKIN: Ah the Chief he's on the phone to Ron FOX 6 now and he will handle Gerry BOOSE and 7 (u/i). 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 PARKIN: And he's expecting a call from the 10 Commissioner. 11 CARSON: Okay. 12 PARKIN: Ah if you will deal with me. 13 CARSON: Yes. 14 PARKIN: Okay rather than me calling you if we 15 could at least establish that you will 16 call me at some periodic times. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 PARKIN: So that. 19 CARSON: Yeah. 20 PARKIN: If I don't have up to date the information 21 that we can tell them we will be talking 22 to the Incident Commander at such and such 23 a time. 24 CARSON: Good. 25 PARKIN: Unless it's an emergency and then you call
721 anytime. 2 CARSON: Right okay and what I'll do I'll give you 3 a phone number here that's a direct line 4 into the Command Post is for me. 5 PARKIN: I've got that one(1) two (2) six (6) two 6 (2). 7 CARSON: That's right. 8 PARKIN: Okay I've got that. 9 CARSON: So if you need to call you should be able 10 to get, if you if you get a busy signal on 11 that I'm on it. 12 PARKIN: Yeah exactly. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 PARKIN: But and and we appreciate like, I wouldn't 15 want to be being bothered by phone calls 16 so I'd rather much rather it come from 17 you. 18 CARSON: Yeah. 19 PARKIN: This way. 20 CARSON: Okay. So ah what would you like two (2) 21 hours. Every two (2) hours. 22 PARKIN: That'll be fine. 23 CARSON: Okay. So ah we look now the next one ah 24 no later than twelve (12) o'clock. 25 PARKIN: Okay.
731 CARSON: Before you break for lunch you will have 2 something the next. 3 PARKIN: That's great. 4 CARSON: Update. 5 PARKIN: That's great. 6 CARSON: Ah we had a meeting here just a few 7 minutes ago and we intend to have another 8 one at eleven (11) o'clock to get another 9 look at it. 10 PARKIN: Okay I can I just ask you a couple of 11 preliminary questions? 12 CARSON: Yeap. 13 PARKIN: Of the Chief that I have. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 PARKIN: And they are quick hits. 16 CARSON: Yep. 17 PARKIN: Ah. 18 CARSON: By the way this is all all this phone 19 stuff is on on recorder in the Command 20 Post here. 21 PARKIN: That's fine. 22 CARSON: Okay just so you know. 23 PARKIN: And okay thanks and the only ah the reason 24 is of course Hutch is out West. 25 CARSON: Yes.
741 PARKIN: (laughs) and he attended your meeting. 2 CARSON: Oh yes. 3 PARKIN: (u/i). 4 CARSON: Yes, yes. 5 PARKIN: So. 6 CARSON: A good representative he was too. 7 PARKIN: Operational Plan. 8 CARSON: Yes, It's done. 9 PARKIN: Is there a copy somewhere. 10 CARSON: Yes they're all here and in fact I wanted 11 to get one down to the Chief ah today. 12 PARKIN: Okay. 13 CARSON: Ah. 14 PARKIN: So that's forthcoming. 15 CARSON: Yeah we'd have to arrange how we get it 16 down there that's all. 17 PARKIN: Well um, what I'll do is I'll do that. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 PARKIN: I'll get somebody from two (2). 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 PARKIN: To just go there and get it. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 PARKIN: (U/i) Operational or (u/i) do you have fax 24 capabilities? 25 CARSON: Oh Jeez, it's too big to fax. It's a it's
751 a binder. 2 PARKIN: All right, (u/i) operations plan. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 PARKIN: And ah so you've got it and will obtain 5 it. 6 CARSON: Right. 7 PARKIN: A spokesperson for the group. 8 CARSON: Ah we haven't ah ah a name because they 9 keep, it looks like Bruce MANNING err Bert 10 MANNING I mean. Ah but that that seems to 11 change ah. We spoke to them last night to 12 some degree tried to serve them a notice 13 and they said they would talk to us at 14 noon today. 15 PARKIN: Okay. Ah the press is reporting that it's 16 the Chippewa's the Tims that are in there. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And the transcript has a -- doesn't - 22 - it's -- it should be "Thames" -- T-H-A-M-E-S rather 23 than the "Thames" that's in the transcript, Chippewa of 24 the Thames. 25
761 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 2 3 4 PARKIN: That's incorrect. 5 CARSON: Is the Stoney Point people who are 6 occupying the base. I spoke with Tom 7 BRESSETTE the Chief. 8 PARKIN: Stoney with an E. 9 CARSON: Yes. 10 PARKIN: Ah Stoney Point. So they're the same 11 people that the militants from the 12 occupiers from the camp. 13 CARSON: Right. 14 PARKIN: Okay. 15 CARSON: And ah I spoke with Chief BRESSETTE and ah 16 there there's absolutely no support 17 whatsoever from the elected community. 18 PARKIN: Oh okay, um, demands. 19 CARSON: Ah none ah it's just it's their land. The 20 ah park and Matheson Drive. Um our 21 information is we okay just to give you 22 the kind of readers digest version of what 23 happened last night like ah there like 24 they swarmed in there and they got into a 25 verbal barrage. A back window of a
771 cruiser was ah smashed out. Ah and there 2 was a flare thrown at one of our guys and. 3 PARKIN: What time was that? 4 CARSON: Ah that all started at seven (7) thirty 5 (30). 6 PARKIN: So that was after the campers were out. 7 CARSON: Well there was, campers were out but there 8 was still day use people in there. 9 PARKIN: Oh yeah. 10 CARSON: And they were ah ah evacuated by MNR and 11 our people. 12 PARKIN: Okay. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 PARKIN: So how did we get into an altercation just 15 protecting ourself? 16 CARSON: Yeah we were just in there and they wanted 17 us out basically. 18 PARKIN: Uhum. 19 CARSON: And ah they just confronted our people who 20 were there and got into a barrage to get 21 off their land. 22 PARKIN: Uhum. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 PARKIN: Any OPP officers hurt? 25 CARSON: No none.
781 PARKIN: Where they told at that time that they 2 were trespassing? 3 CARSON: Yes. 4 PARKIN: Okay. 5 CARSON: And they went back with ah around eleven 6 (11) thirty (30) with ah Superintendent of 7 the Park, Les KOBAYASHI. 8 PARKIN: Uhum. 9 CARSON: And ah although they weren't able to 10 deliver or to hand over a copy of a notice 11 ah ah they did have conversation with 12 somebody at the gate who who would not 13 accept accept it, you know they just kept 14 backing away from them. But they are 15 aware we have a piece of paper for them, 16 that in in fact relative to the 17 trespassing issue. 18 PARKIN: And that that piece of paper is. 19 CARSON: It's just a notice that ah the park is 20 officially closed by the Superintendent 21 and they are trespassers. MNR is pursuing 22 an injunction. 23 PARKIN: Okay they are pursuing? 24 CARSON: Yes. 25 PARKIN: Okay. Um. Um. How did they set up the
791 video? Is the case where somebody has to 2 go in and retrieve tapes? 3 CARSON: Oh for for ah the surveillance? 4 PARKIN: Yeah. 5 CARSON: Ah, that's being fed back to Grand Bend 6 Detachment. 7 PARKIN: Is it working? 8 CARSON: Well the problem you got is we have to 9 have authorization to turn it on. 10 PARKIN: That's for the audio eh? 11 CARSON: And video. They have to have a general 12 warrant for that. Okay and our crime guys 13 are working on that with the Crown 14 Attorney as to what we need in order to 15 make that happen and you know, ah. 16 PARKIN: And that's different than the information 17 we got from HUTCH. 18 CARSON: Well that's my understanding too, but they 19 we were talking to the Crown Attorney last 20 night on it. 21 PARKIN: So that's being followed up on? 22 CARSON: Yep. T (u/i) T (u/i). 23 PARKIN: As we speak. 24 CARSON: Yes. 25 PARKIN: Cause that's important.
801 CARSON: Yep absolutely. 2 PARKIN: (u/i) back to Grand Bend. 3 CARSON: And and they broke into the maintenance 4 shack by the way. 5 PARKIN: Uhum. Ah yeah Jeez I hope we can get that 6 up and running today. 7 CARSON: Well I hope so. 8 PARKIN: (u/i) warrant. They must be saying that 9 that's the same as our ident people going 10 in then. 11 CARSON: Yeah. 12 PARKIN: Or video. Okay. Current status of the 13 situation? 14 CARSON: Oh, well we have ah checkpoints set up on 15 ah twenty-one (21) and Army Camp Road and 16 then down the Army Camp Road at the last 17 residence prior to the park to control 18 traffic in and out and on Parkway Road 19 which runs lake front, ah. 20 PARKIN: Okay, you got a checkpoint at twenty-one 21 (21) and Army Camp. 22 CARSON: Yeah. 23 PARKIN: And then at. 24 CARSON: Where the last residence is, I think it's 25 called Silver Birch Cottages or something
811 like that which is the last one prior to 2 the military or the ah park itself. 3 PARKIN: Okay. 4 CARSON: When you come down that road. 5 PARKIN: And I know Silver Birch Park ground. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 PARKIN: Silver Birch trailer camp and then where? 8 CARSON: And then on Parkway Road which is, runs 9 along lakefront. So just just up the road 10 where the houses start there and then at 11 west Ipperwash and ah ah and ah Parkway. 12 So if you went to Ravenswood and cut over 13 to the lake. 14 PARKIN: Uh huh. 15 CARSON: Well where that turns on Parkway, it's a 16 checkpoint there. 17 PARKIN: So how close is our inner perimeter? 18 CARSON: Not very, ah were probably half a 19 kilometre out. 20 PARKIN: So we don't have Matheson Drive. 21 CARSON: No there's ah trees across Matheson Drive. 22 Apparently and we got ah ah Jimmy DYKE and 23 Donny BELL up here and they're going down 24 there now to have a have a look see. Ah 25 we don't know you know it appears they may
821 even have for the most part went back into 2 the military base ah through the night. 3 We don't know to what degree and we're 4 asking for the helicopter as we speak to 5 come down so we can have a look from 6 above. 7 PARKIN: So I guess what I'm hearing is we don't 8 have containment. 9 CARSON: Not well we don't know what we have like 10 we we don't have containment as as we 11 normally understand it, no. 12 PARKIN: So they can go in between the park and the 13 grounds without us being aware. 14 CARSON: That's right and what they've done is 15 they've locked Matheson Drive gate so you 16 can't get down it at this point and 17 they've also cut a whole in the fence so 18 they can drive right through the end of 19 the park, you know free wheel right out 20 there. 21 PARKIN: Ah do we have any Marine in the water? 22 CARSON: Ah that's being done as we speak. 23 PARKIN: Okay. And your next meeting is at ah 24 twelve (12) o'clock? 25 CARSON: Ah eleven (11).
831 PARKIN: Okay. 2 CARSON: Ah we're our guys are the crime guys are 3 getting ah our pursuant three warrants for 4 the incidence involving the cruiser and ah 5 the flare and that. We know we have 6 identified the people involved. 7 PARKIN: Warrants being obtained. 8 CARSON: Now we're if if the 9 PARKIN: (U/i) charges Mischief. 10 CARSON: Ah there's ah yeah Mischief and then there 11 will be ah. 12 PARKIN: Assault Police. 13 CARSON: Ah yeah Assault Police and probably a 14 Possession of Weapon Dangerous or 15 something along that line. 16 PARKIN: And um subjects ah identified. 17 CARSON: Yep. 18 PARKIN: So we're getting warrants by name. 19 CARSON: Right. Hopefully you know ah and and we 20 will once we obtain the warrants we will 21 make a press release on that. 22 PARKIN: Uhum. 23 CARSON: And hopefully an opportunity will p9resent 24 itself that we can scoop those guys. We 25 don't know if we can or we can't MR. DAVID
841 BUTT: you know I think we have lots of 2 people here in daylight ah that we may be 3 able to ah get into the park while I we 4 know they've parked some junk CARSON: in 5 around the entrance to the you know the 6 normal driveway but we don't know to what 7 degree. So if we can develop that 8 information and see then maybe we can put 9 the ERT right back inside the park if we 10 can get access. 11 PARKIN: Ah ah I'm only going to ask this question 12 because I'm sure that the Chief is 13 probably going to ask it. How did we ah 14 given the fact we have people there when 15 this all happened. How did we lose 16 containment? (U/i). 17 CARSON: Ah well it was a matter of safety. Like 18 somebody is going to get their head caved 19 in if we'd of stayed in there. 20 PARKIN: Okay. 21 CARSON: Cause they were really getting getting 22 irate with our guys and ah ah I would 23 suggest the damage to the cruiser was you 24 know indicative of what more we were going 25 to get into.
851 PARKIN: What was the damage to the cruiser done 2 by? 3 CARSON: Who. 4 PARKIN: What did they use to do the damage? 5 CARSON: Um. I (u/i). 6 PARKIN: Kept booting the doors. 7 CARSON: No no they smashed the back window out of 8 it. 9 PARKIN: Uh huh. 10 CARSON: I'm not sure what what you know device 11 they used but somehow or another they 12 smashed (u/i) through a rock through it or 13 a baseball bat or something. But they 14 they were prepared to to take us on at 15 that point and we just didn't have the 16 numbers to do it. Because all we had was 17 the one (1) District ERT at that time with 18 ah, with ah eight (8) in one (1), you 19 know, ah ah. 20 PARKIN: How many how many people do we think we 21 are dealing with? 22 CARSON: Well there was up to forty (40) ah ah ah I 23 would suggest at the height of it there 24 for a while and the the women and the kids 25 are in there too of course.
861 PARKIN: Okay any anything else that you want to 2 give me while I've got you on the phone. 3 CARSON: Ah I think that's about it ah we're we're 4 going to try and ah go down and talk to 5 them (u/i) of course that's what we want 6 to do ah. The township is ah pursue in 7 getting their legal house in order if a if 8 we can't get the roadway clear or have any 9 trouble with that they're going to get an 10 injunction for the roadway too. 11 PARKIN: Where are we talking? 12 CARSON: Matheson Drive. 13 PARKIN: Yeah. No I ah yeah sorry bad question. 14 Where where are we doing our negotiating 15 from? 16 CARSON: Well we don't know yet ah they said last 17 night that they were prepared to to talk 18 to us at noon and ah like you know we're 19 we're, will have to play that by ear as we 20 develop that. 21 PARKIN: Okay. Ah. 22 CARSON: Cause what what I would like to do like 23 like or or if we can achieve it is get ERT 24 inserted into the Park so at least we're 25 just in there and in their face even you
871 know, not not to physically scoop em and 2 drag them out but just just to be in there 3 and keep an eye on their activities. 4 PARKIN: But you can't your problem now as I 5 understand you is you can't drive onto 6 Matheson. 7 CARSON: We can't that's right that's right. 8 PARKIN: You've got it blocked off and what are 9 they fell trees across the road. 10 CARSON: That's what it sounds like yeah. 11 PARKIN: So you need the helicopter? 12 CARSON: Yep. 13 PARKIN: And and are you looking after that? 14 CARSON: That's being addressed ah I just talked to 15 Mark here in a minute see how he made out. 16 PARKIN: Okay um are you getting calls from any ah 17 is anybody getting to you the park and 18 government officials. We've been talking 19 to BEAUBIEN this morning. 20 CARSON: Yeah he ah he called LACROIX. The 21 LACROIX's handled that ah so he's kind of 22 run ah interference for us that way. 23 PARKIN: Is somebody else bothering you or media 24 getting to your (u/i). 25 CARSON: Ah no Doug's doing an excellent job
881 handling that, ah Ken WILLIAMS the 2 Administrator from the Town of Bosanquet 3 ah was here. We talked to him. MNR has 4 been here ah doing you know anything we 5 want. If we want front end loaders or 6 chainsaws, whatever the township is ah 7 more than happy to help us out. 8 PARKIN: Ah, is twenty-one (21) Highway still open? 9 CARSON: Oh yeah. 10 PARKIN: Okay. 11 CARSON: Yeah. 12 PARKIN: So basically then, I guess our containment 13 is Ipperwash and the Military Base. 14 That's the inner perimeter? 15 CARSON: Ah not the Military Base. Just just 16 access ah through down on ah Army Camp 17 Road (u/i). 18 PARKIN: And from the cottages eh? 19 CARSON: Yep, yep. I mean we have no way of really 20 containing the Military Base really. Not 21 not you know and be any effectiveness to 22 it whatsoever. 23 PARKIN: Okay. And you have enought ah resources 24 there now? 25 CARSON: I think so I think so I'm pretty
891 comfortable with that. 2 PARKIN: So what have you got you've got ah. 3 CARSON: T (u/i) six (6) and three (3) District ERT 4 are on the ground now and one (1) and two 5 (2) District are in bed. 6 PARKIN: Okay. 7 CARSON: I've got use of ah St. John's Ambulance ah 8 ah Command Post vehicle that's being used 9 for like ah talk down near there. 10 PARKIN: So you've got the trailer ah right at 11 Forest Detachment? 12 CARSON: That's where I'm talking to you from yep. 13 PARKIN: Okay so the media aren't bothering you 14 there. 15 CARSON: No no not. 16 PARKIN: (u/i) they're using the Legion. 17 CARSON: Yep. 18 PARKIN: What em. Ah ah in you're your relief. 19 CARSON: Yes. 20 PARKIN: Ah. 21 CARSON: My relief. 22 PARKIN: Yeah. 23 CARSON: Okay I haven't address it. Ah what I did 24 ah is I worked off about ah ah one (1) 25 thirty (30) and then I went to bed and ah
901 and then I was back in here for seven (7). 2 PARKIN: Okay, so you're good for. 3 CARSON: Yep oh yeah yeah I'm okay today. 4 PARKIN: Um okay but what um and Dale will be 5 coming in. 6 CARSON: I haven't talk to Dale there's a note here 7 to call. I guess he's ah waiting for my 8 ah call. 9 PARKIN: I guess you guys should come up with when 10 you're going to do the switch. 11 CARSON: Yep. Yep. 12 PARKIN: Okay. 13 CARSON: Yep. 14 PARKIN: All right so the bottom line is like I say 15 ah I won't we won't be bothering you. 16 CARSON: Yep. 17 PARKIN: You know. 18 CARSON: Yep. 19 PARKIN: We'll wait for your calls. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 PARKIN: And um the only thing that might happen 22 either later today is that ah the Chief 23 and I may come. 24 CARSON: Yep, that's fine. 25 PARKIN: But that will only be to see you.
911 CARSON: Yep. 2 PARKIN: And ah to to show support and then leave. 3 CARSON: Yep. 4 PARKIN: Okay. 5 CARSON: You know I'd I'd welcome that. I don't 6 have any trouble with that. 7 PARKIN: Okay. 8 CARSON: Yep. 9 PARKIN: But we'll let you know. 10 CARSON: Yep. 11 PARKIN: And if it doesn't happen today then it 12 might be tomorrow or whatever it just 13 depends on how things are going. 14 CARSON: Yep well I think ah were in reasonably 15 good shape ah ah you know I think the the 16 planning we did has paid off in the short 17 term ah, you know there's some organized 18 confusion but but I think for the most 19 part it's ah ah as well as we could 20 expect. 21 PARKIN: Yeah I'm just um I guess it's it's 22 unfortunate we couldn't maintain the park. 23 CARSON: Well huh. 24 PARKIN: But that's a decision that has to be made 25 by the people that ah we you say. I mean
921 if ah we're going to get beat up for (u/i) 2 that reason. 3 CARSON: Well that's right and we we could have 4 maintained the park if we had every you 5 know the numbers that people have here 6 now. At that time we probably could of 7 maintained it but you know it would have 8 it would have meant somebody getting hurt 9 last night. 10 PARKIN: Ah they're going to say we got caught by 11 surprise. Is that accurate? 12 CARSON: Ahhh not. 13 PARKIN: They're going to say that well we knew 14 this this was going to happen. 15 CARSON: Well we anticipated it and we anticipated 16 that it would happen when we weren't there 17 at all is what we anticipated. So the 18 fact that we were there is is a bonus. 19 (Laughs) I guess from a public safety 20 point of view. We really expected it to 21 happen today after our presence had had 22 left, but they chose to do it when we were 23 still around so ah you know we had 24 anticipated em doing it, ah you know we 25 just didn't know when.
931 PARKIN: Okay, alright I let you go. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 PARKIN: And ah we'll be talking to you at around 4 noon. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 PARKIN: Alright. 7 CARSON: Thank you. 8 PARKIN: Bye. 9 CARSON: Right bye. 10 11 End of conversation. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Commissioner, perhaps it would be an 15 appropriate time, I have a number of questions about this 16 conversation, to have the morning break? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 10:38 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 10:50 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed, please be seated.
941 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Deputy Carson, I have a couple of 4 questions with respect to the conversation at Tab 6 with 5 Superintendent Parkin. 6 Firstly, when Superintendent Parkin 7 referred to "Chief," who was the Chief that he was 8 referring to? 9 A: Chief Superintendent Chris Coles. 10 Q: And during the conversation he also 11 talked about Gerry Boose and, who was Gerry Boose back in 12 1995? 13 A: Gerry Boose was a Deputy Commissioner 14 of Field Operations. 15 Q: And the Commissioner in 1995 was Mr. 16 O'Grady? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And your reporting was to 19 Superintendent Parkin who then -- or Superintendent -- 20 Chief Superintendent Coles who then reported up the line? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And there's a reference to, "Hutch," 23 is that Inspector Hutchinson? 24 A: Yes, Jim Hutchison. 25 Q: And why -- it said that, "Hutch is
951 out west." What was being referred to there? Was -- was 2 Inspector Hutchison Superintendent Parkin's 3 representative on your team? 4 A: Yes, he was at the meeting on the 5 Friday -- 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: -- and he had left on the weekend and 8 had flown to Gustafson Lake. 9 Q: And -- but if he had not gone to 10 Gustafson Lake, would he have -- was it the intention 11 when he was at the meeting on Friday, that he would be a 12 conduit of information to Superintendent Parkin? 13 A: That's fair. 14 Q: And there was a discussion with 15 respect to the video cameras in the -- the video cameras 16 at this point were in the kiosk or gatehouse, and the 17 maintenance building? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And was it resolved what was 20 necessary to turn on the video cameras? 21 A: Yes, later on it was, but not at that 22 particular point in time. 23 Q: And later on, how was it -- how did 24 it -- what was required -- ultimately, did you decide to 25 turn on the video cameras?
961 A: It's my understanding from memory 2 that we did not require, excuse me, we did not require an 3 authorization for the video, but did require 4 authorization for any audio around the telephone. 5 Q: Okay. And then if I could take you 6 back to page 28 of Exhibit 420 -- P-426. There's a 7 reference to: 8 "Mark Wright contacted Inspector 9 Robertson, GHQ, regarding the 10 helicopter. He advised that the 11 Brampton helicopter is out of service 12 for two (2) weeks and the other 13 helicopter is in Sault Ste. Marie and 14 only has seventeen (17) hours available 15 on it. 16 Inspector Robinson to contact RCMP 17 regarding availability of their 18 chopper. MNR to contact Toronto about 19 their chopper. Inspector Robinson -- 20 Robertson to report back to Detective 21 Sergeant Mark Wright, inform -- Mark 22 Wright informed John Carson that RCMP 23 chopper is in British Columbia." 24 So, at this point the attempt is being 25 made to obtain a helicopter?
971 A: Correct. 2 Q: And the OPP helicopters, one (1) was 3 out of service that was based in Brampton; is that 4 correct? 5 A: Yes. One (1) was down for 6 maintenance, one (1) only had seventeen (17) hours left 7 of flying time before it was due for maintenance. 8 Q: And it was in Sault Ste. Marie? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Then at page 29 there's a reference 11 to a call to Inspector Linton and that appears at Tab 7 12 in the book in front of you. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 15 16 John CARSON and Dale LINTON 17 18 September 5, 1995 19 TIME: 10:10:04 hours 20 Track 2.wav 21 22 CARSON: (to background) The air conditioner is 23 starting to work now. 24 FEMALE: (in background) Pardon. 25 CARSON: (To background) The air conditioner is
981 starting to work now. 2 FEMALE: (in background) Yeah it's nice to here 3 actually. 4 FEMALE: Chatham OPP, Bonnie speaking. 5 CARSON: Bonnie lad, how are you? 6 FEMALE: Fine. 7 CARSON: John CARSON here. 8 FEMALE: Hello. 9 CARSON: Hi Dale LINTON please. 10 FEMALE: One second. 11 FEMALE: District Headquarters Veronica speaking. 12 CARSON: Hi Veronica John CARSON here. 13 FEMALE: Hi. 14 CARSON: Hi is Dale LINTON handy please? 15 FEMALE: Yes he is. Can you hold on? 16 CARSON: Thank you. 17 CARSON: (To background) Are you able to get any of 18 it into the computer? 19 FEMALE: (in background) I've got a little bit 20 typed up (laughs). 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: That person in the background is 24 Karen Shaw? 25 A: It is.
991 Q: The scribe? 2 A: Correct. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYER, TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 5 6 CARSON: (To background) Yeah. 7 FEMALE: (In background) It was hard to get 8 organized at first. 9 CARSON: (To background) Yeah. 10 FEMALE: (In background) By the time I get this 11 caught up it will be ten (10) thirty (30) 12 eleven (11) o'clock (laughs). 13 CARSON: (To background) Yeah that's right. 14 MALE: (In background) Yes Wayne how are ya. Ah 15 (u/i). 16 MALE: (In background) ten (10) fifteen (15) or 17 ten (10) (u/i). 18 MALE: Hello. 19 CARSON: Hi. 20 FEMALE: Just one second and I'll transfer you 21 okay. 22 CARSON: Thank you. 23 LINTON: Good morning John. 24 CARSON: Good morning Dale, how are you today? 25 LINTON: Well I'm alright, how are you?
1001 CARSON: I think I'm okay. I feel okay. 2 LINTON: Did you get much snoozing in the night? 3 CARSON: Yeah I got about four (4) or (5) hours. 4 LINTON: Did yah? 5 CARSON: Yep yep yep yeah no I went to bed by two 6 (2) o'clock ah got some sleep. Things are 7 settled down and let it run for the for 8 the duration so to speak. Um have you got 9 a bag packed? 10 LINTON: I can. 11 CARSON: Okay can you be prepared to do to pull 12 midnight shift? 13 LINTON: Okay. 14 CARSON: Ah the way we're doing it with the troops 15 is ah seven (7) seven (7) o'clock in the 16 morning is a or seven (7) and seven (7) is 17 a shift changes. 18 LINTON: Yeah. 19 CARSON: And I guess basically I guess we can do 20 the same. 21 LINTON: Okay. 22 CARSON: For a day or two anyway. 23 LINTON: So you would like me to get up there at 24 seven (7) o'clock well before seven (7) I 25 want to get up to speed (u/i).
1011 CARSON: Yeah and brief you on you know what's 2 what's going on. All I'm going to try to 3 do is hold the line. Ah we lost the park 4 last night. We're not in the park at all. 5 We've got ah more or less ah lack of a 6 better term run out before somebody got 7 hurt. A cruiser rear window smashed out 8 of it and there was a nose to nose and it 9 wasn't good for a little while and we 10 didn't have enough ERT guys. We only had 11 eight (8) there, so we just didn't have 12 the horses to do it. 13 LINTON: Uhum. 14 CARSON: Ah so rather than get somebody into a 15 confrontation and get hurt we ah chose 16 plan B and just maintained the area 17 outside of the park. So we're we're doing 18 work trying to get some helicopter down 19 here and some things so we can have a 20 better look and there is trees down across 21 Matheson Drive and. 22 LINTON: So one (1) and two (2) ERT are there and 23 are doing an external perimeter. 24 CARSON: One (1) and two (2) is in bed and three 25 (3) and six(6) is on the ground.
1021 LINTON: Okay. 2 CARSON: Yeah yeah one (1) and two (2) will come 3 back at ah for seven (7). 4 LINTON: Seven (7) o'clock eh. So we've got ah we 5 got our four (4) checkpoints manned? 6 CARSON: Yep. Yep. Yep. 7 LINTON: (U/i). 8 CARSON: Yep we have a. 9 LINTON: Set up down on the Parkway Drive. 10 CARSON: Yep. Yep. 11 LINTON: The plan is. Have we got one thing I was 12 thinking about last night when I was 13 reading that plan are we going to have 14 anybody from MNR in our Command Post. 15 CARSON: They're here. 16 LINTON: Are they? 17 CARSON: Yep. Yep. Les KOBAYASHI and Ed VERVOORT 18 their Enforcement Specialists are here and 19 they are doing the liaison with their 20 upper people. Yep and they have they have 21 a media guy with Doug BABBITT at the 22 Legion. 23 LINTON: Okay is is what is the plan to get an 24 injunction? 25 CARSON: Yep the MNR are pursuing that as we speak
1031 as well as the Township of Bosanquest ah 2 may also get an injunction. 3 LINTON: Okay. 4 CARSON: Another thing that ah is throwing a little 5 ah wrinkle into it if you would is ah 6 information that RCMP are raiding 100 Mile 7 House as we speak. 8 LINTON: I I heard that this morning that the Army 9 is going in and that that could work in 10 our favour I mean. 11 CARSON: The Army is going in there? 12 LINTON: Pardon. 13 CARSON: Did you say the Army? 14 LINTON: Yeah. 15 CARSON: Oh okay. 16 LINTON: The Army had brought in ah somebody just 17 told I was just in the coffee room when I 18 guess Garnett was saying that the ah Army 19 had just been brought into 100 Mile House. 20 CARSON: Oh okay. 21 LINTON: Whether they were going to do the raid or 22 whether they were going to do the 23 perimeter or what. 24 CARSON: Okay maybe yeah. 25 LINTON: (U/I) the Army has been ordered in.
1041 CARSON: Yeah hah okay. 2 LINTON: It's unconfirmed but. 3 CARSON: Yeah oh. 4 LINTON: It's a yeah I ah what are you what are you 5 working in just regular casual clothes? 6 CARSON: I'm in uniform. 7 LINTON: Okay. 8 CARSON: Because there there is guys here who don't 9 know who we are like six (6) and three (3) 10 District guys and ah so I'm just ah. 11 LINTON: What I'll do is work till noon and then 12 I'll go home and. 13 CARSON: get some snooze. 14 LINTON: I can't snooze through the day. 15 CARSON: Yeah. 16 LINTON: It will be tomorrow before I can snooze 17 through the day, but ah. 18 CARSON: Yeah, yeah. 19 LINTON: I'll get Timmer to look after it. He was 20 going to be off part of the week getting a 21 deck built but (u/i). 22 CARSON: Ah well may put off his construction 23 business for another day. Hire somebody, 24 yeah, yeah. Yeah so we're in pretty good 25 shape ah, just talking to ah
1051 Superintendent PARKIN a few minutes ago 2 there and ah give him the update and ah 3 they're handling the other end of it. 4 LINTON: Okay, so he's gonna he's gonna do all the 5 briefing notes and stuff like before? 6 CARSON: I hope so because I. 7 LINTON: That's a good way that worked really well 8 before. 9 CARSON: Yeah so were what were doing is were 10 having ah management meetings here as as 11 ah as you know timely as we can like our 12 next one is for eleven (11) o'clock and 13 I've ah arranged with ah Tony that I'll 14 notify him the next phone call by twelve 15 (12) o'clock. So given our briefing then 16 I'll update him and that gives us time to 17 work in between a little bit. 18 LINTON: Yeah. 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 LINTON: Okay so you've talked, have you talked to 21 the Chief or just Tony? 22 CARSON: Just Tony, ah I ah we've arranged that ah 23 my contact will be Tony and Tony will have 24 questions and and and deliver back to the 25 Chief. So Tony would be the contact of
1061 the Chief's Office. 2 LINTON: Okay and and he's aware that I'm going to 3 rotate in in nights then. 4 CARSON: Yep yep yep we talked about that. Ah also 5 ah just so you know if you want to call me 6 direct ah seven (7) eight (8) six (6) 7 twelve (12) sixty-two (62) is a ah ah 8 dedicated line for for me. 9 LINTON: Seven (7) eight (8) six (6) twelve (12) 10 sixty-two (62). 11 CARSON: Yeah and if that line is busy I'm talking 12 to somebody. 13 LINTON: That's right at Forest Detachment? 14 CARSON: Well it's in the Command trailer. 15 LINTON: Dedicated line. So are you working out of 16 the trailer? 17 CARSON: Yep. 18 LINTON: Or the Detachment? 19 CARSON: Yep yep and the trailer. Well both we've 20 taken over the office. 21 LINTON: Okay (u/i). 22 CARSON: We've had the telephone lines diverted to 23 Forest for the regular two (2) three (3) 24 four (4) nine (9) line. 25 LINTON: Okay um what do you need? Somebody was
1071 saying this morning you were looking for 2 another ah laptop. 3 CARSON: (To background) Do we have a laptop Mark? 4 Was that issue raised? Is that for 5 BABBITT? 6 MALE: (In background) He's got a computer. They 7 took the (u/i) another Detachment, so I 8 don't think so he's got work process in 9 there too. 10 CARSON: (To background) Okay. 11 CARSON: I I don't know who was looking for a 12 laptop ah ah I personally wasn't aware of 13 that ah that's possible I don't know. Ah 14 we got one here that Karen SHAW is using 15 for like ah scribbing. 16 LINTON: Okay I've I've got one here so maybe I'll 17 just throw in the trunk of the car. 18 CARSON: If you don't mind then if we we have use 19 for it ah we can ah make use of it ah this 20 your know certainly lots of things they're 21 handy for. 22 LINTON: Okay. 23 CARSON: Yeah. 24 LINTON: So I'll come up about ah somewhere between 25 five (5) and six (6) and I'll see you at
1081 Forest Detachment. 2 CARSON: Sounds good. 3 LINTON: Okay. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 LINTON: Thanks. 6 CARSON: Thanks Dale. 7 8 End of conversation. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Now, if I could ask you a couple of 12 questions about that telephone conversation. There's a 13 reference to when Inspector Linton was talking about Mr. 14 Timmer (phonetic), you say: 15 "So we're in pretty good shape I'll 16 just talking to Superintendent Parkin a 17 few minutes ago there and gave him -- 18 give him the update, and they're 19 handling the other end of it." 20 And what were you referring to when you 21 used the words "they're handling the other end of it"? 22 A: The general headquarters side, up the 23 chain. 24 Q: Okay. Then, back at page 29, there's 25 at ten (10)...
1091 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: ...Sixteen (16), we had the note of - 4 - the call we've just played. Then there's a reference 5 to the: 6 "Bill Dennis advised that he was 7 arranging for the Grand Bend boat to be 8 put in the water. He also contacted 9 Kincardine and advised them to bring up 10 their boat, and it will be used at 11 night. Advised that they will be 12 working five (5) nights and they will 13 be put up. Also advised that he was 14 taking care of the admin forms." 15 So, were there two (2) boats put into 16 service, Deputy Commissioner? 17 A: What that refers to was using 18 different boats for different times of the day; the 19 Forest boat was used during daylight hours and the 20 Kincardine boat through the night. The Kincardine boat 21 is a significantly larger vessel that has much more 22 appropriate accommodations for longer stays. 23 Q: And was the Kincardine boat the HH 24 Graham (phonetic)? 25 A: Yes, it was.
1101 Q: And then Mark Wright notes that -- so 2 there's a note: 3 "John Carson informed Staff Sergeant 4 that there is a special cost centre 5 code to be used for this incident." 6 So that it had -- the incident had its own 7 cost code for the purposes of financial accounting? 8 A: That's what it was for, yes. 9 Q: And then, Mark Wright, again, speaks 10 to the helicopter, you didn't have the helicopter yet? 11 A: It had not arrived yet. 12 Q: Then the -- at 10:42 there's a note: 13 "Detective Sergeant Don Bell went to 14 the Park and advised there are nine (9) 15 natives there right now. The vehicles 16 are a black Olds, two (2) door; OPP? 17 Van, red; flat bed GMC pickup, cream, 18 and a four (4) wheel ATV. Detective 19 Sergeant Bell spotted two (2) women -- 20 two (2) women, three (3) children and 21 three (3) men. Reports all over, men 22 are cutting down pine trees at the 23 front gate, barricading it. Bell 24 reported that they're camping around 25 the shower area. No one seen in the --
1111 in the beach area." 2 And that was a report -- did he make this 3 report directly to you or through someone else? 4 A: I'm assuming that he made it himself, 5 but I -- I can't be 100 percent sure of that. 6 Q: Then at 10:38 according to the 7 transcript, but at 10:45 according to the -- according to 8 the scribe notes you had another conversation with Ken 9 Williams, the -- he's described again as the Reeve, but 10 he was the Administrator of Bosanquet? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And for the benefit of my -- of you, 13 Commissioner, and you, Deputy Carson and My Friends, it's 14 Tab 8 in the book of transcripts. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 17 18 John CARSON and Ken WILLIAMS From Bosanquet 19 20 September 5, 1995 21 TIME: 10:38:53 hours 22 Track 3.wav 23 24 ARCHIBALD: Command Post ARCHIBALD. 25 WILLIAMS: Ah hi, this is Ken WILLIAMS, town
1121 Administrator in Bosanquet. I was 2 speaking to John CARSON this morning and 3 concerning an injunction on Matheson Drive 4 which is town property. 5 ARCHIBALD: Okay. 6 WILLIAMS: Ah I need to know who the OPP is using so 7 that our lawyers can ah coordinate with 8 them. 9 ARCHIBALD: Okay just one second please. 10 MALE: (In background) Now they're moving in on 11 them now. 12 MALE: (In background) Where out in BC? 13 MALE: (In background) Jesus she's going to go 14 out there. 15 MALE: (In background) Well I thought you should 16 know though, it was on the news at ten 17 (10). 18 CARSON: Hello Ken. 19 WILLIAMS: Hi John. 20 CARSON: Hi. 21 WILLIAMS: I know you probably have other things. 22 CARSON: No problem. 23 WILLIAMS: Ah which lawyer is the OPP using on their 24 injunction? 25 CARSON: Well it it it will be MNR, not us.
1131 WILLIAMS: Oh, MNR, oh. 2 CARSON: Yeah. 3 WILLIAMS: Are you aware of which lawyer they're 4 using. 5 CARSON: Ah not at the moment but I've got Les 6 KOBAYASHI coming into the trailer here in 7 a few minutes. 8 WILLIAMS: Okay. 9 CARSON: So I'll ask him that and have him let you 10 know. 11 WILLIAMS: Yes sir. 12 CARSON: You're at your office? 13 WILLIAMS: Yes please. 14 CARSON: Okay and ah because there are some issues 15 with MNR that have to be addressed ah and 16 there as far as the injunction that may 17 impact on you guys I suspect. 18 WILLIAMS: Yes are you aware their moving into ah 19 Gustafsen Lake now. 20 CARSON: I heard that. 21 WILLIAMS: Okay it was just on the news. 22 CARSON: Yeah yeah that could be interesting. 23 WILLIAMS: Yes. 24 CARSON: (Laugh) Well it won't help us any. 25 WILLIAMS: No I don't think so.
1141 CARSON: But that's life. 2 WILLIAMS: That's it. Thank you, sir. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 WILLIAMS: Bye. 5 CARSON: Okay thanks Ken. 6 7 End of conversation. 8 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, as we 10 discussed yesterday, once I ultimately -- the book will 11 be marked as part of Exhibit 428, and as I play each of 12 these transcripts -- each of these tapes, then the 13 transcript becomes a public document, even though we 14 haven't -- that particular transcript, even though we 15 haven't marked it individually. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 17 understand. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Then the conversation with Ken 21 Williams is reported at 10:45 in a couple of lines and 22 then it says: 23 "Kobayashi advised that the blockade -- 24 committee was meeting at eleven o'clock 25 to discuss the injunction.
1151 Inspector Carson advised there are nine 2 (9) occupants in the Park cutting down 3 trees at the main gate. States we need 4 a helicopter. Kobayashi is looking 5 into getting a helicopter -- getting a 6 chopper, [excuse me]. 7 He also states they have someone 8 searching title of the land at the 9 Registry Office and Inspector Carson 10 relayed the message to Mr. Kobayashi to 11 contact Ken Williams regarding their 12 lawyer. 13 Kobayashi left at 10:50 hours to make 14 some calls." 15 And that was a report of your meeting with 16 Mr. Kobayashi? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Then at eleven o'clock there's 19 another briefing? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And this -- this is a briefing with 22 the same senior group? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And including Mark Wright, Sergeant 25 Korosec, Sergeant Richardson. There's not a list, but
1161 generally the same people that we've looked at before? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Then -- and was Mr. Kobayashi present 4 for this meeting, the note, it seemed to indicate that he 5 had left? 6 A: Yes, I think he had stepped out to do 7 some telephone -- 8 Q: And do you know if there was anyone 9 from MNR at this meeting? 10 A: I don't believe there was. 11 Q: And there was a reference in your 12 telephone conversation to Mr. -- with -- with Inspector 13 Linton to a Ned Vervoot, I think it is, V-E-R- 14 A: Oh, Ed Vervoot, yeah, Ed Vervort. 15 Q: Vervort? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: V-E-R-V-O-R-T. 18 A: Yes, he's a -- yes. Ed is a -- an 19 Enforcement Specialist with the Ministry of Natural 20 Resources. 21 Q: And the -- what was your 22 understanding of his role on September 5th, 1995? 23 A: Oh, he was providing assistance to 24 Les Kobayashi. 25 Q: Assistance for what? What was your
1171 understanding? 2 A: He was a Senior Enforcement Officer. 3 I just -- I just assume he's providing Kobayashi with 4 some legal assistance, enforcement advice. 5 Q: Okay. Then there's a note at page 6 31: 7 "Stan Korosec sent the check sheets out 8 to the ERT members to fill out. Also 9 asked ERT members, has anyone -- is 10 capable of operating a front-end 11 loader. 12 Inspector Carson suggested to Sergeant 13 Korosec to have his members go door to 14 door and make the public aware of their 15 presence. 16 Sergeant Korosec stated that any 17 comments they have received are 18 positive. Inspector Carson stated to 19 have some discussion ahead of time, 20 because it's the public's benefit that 21 we are here." 22 And do you know if on September 5th, the - 23 - the -- Sergeant Korosec or any of the ERT team members 24 visited the cottages in and around the Park? 25 A: Given the note here, I'm certainly
1181 expecting they would have. 2 Q: But do you know if they did? 3 A: I don't have that information. 4 Q: And why did you want Inspector -- why 5 did you want Sergeant Korosec to have his members go door 6 to door? 7 A: Well, this goes back to the -- the 8 whole issue of the public concern and, in our plan, 9 talking about community liaison, trying to keep the 10 public informed of what we're doing, why we were there, 11 to allay their concerns, to ensure they understood we 12 were doing everything we could do. 13 And I think when you look at the comments 14 from Ken Williams there certainly was a -- a heightened 15 anxiety level from the administrators at the township or 16 the town office. And I felt it was important that we 17 make every effort to try to keep the community, at large, 18 informed and reduce the anxiety level to the degree we 19 possibly could. 20 Q: And the cottages that you're 21 referring to when you spoke to Sergeant Korosec, what -- 22 can you tell us which cottages you had in mind? 23 A: Particularly in the Parkway Drive 24 area, but also the Silver Birch area, people who would 25 be affected by the checkpoint operations.
1191 Q: Okay. Then at the bottom of the 2 page: 3 "Sergeant Korosec brought up the issue 4 of night vision glasses. Inspector 5 Carson states the TRU has six (6) sets. 6 Sergeant Korosec to look into it." 7 What does that refer to? 8 A: Oh, it's just night vision goggles, 9 it allows enhanced vision in -- at night. And Korosec 10 was looking into the number of sets we could get our 11 hands on. 12 Q: And the TRU team have their own night 13 vision equipment? 14 A: They have some, yes. 15 Q: Yes? And why did the ERT team 16 members need night vision capability? 17 A: Well, they were going to be the 18 people who were going to be doing the perimeter checks 19 come the evening. TRU -- TRU were not being deployed to 20 ground, it was ERT people who were going to be in the 21 area and monitoring the activities. 22 Q: Then at the top of page 32: 23 "Sergeant Seltzer updated that the 24 negotiators have all been contacted. 25 Inspector Carson suggested a face to
1201 face meeting with the occupants. We 2 have Mark Wright, Brad Seltzer, and 3 himself present. 4 Sergeant Korosec advises that the 5 emergency phone is still hooked up if 6 they want to make contact by 7 telephone." 8 And the emergency phone is their phone to 9 where? 10 A: I'm not sure if I'm referring to the 11 phone in the maintenance shack, because there was a 12 telephone in there, or if there -- there may have been a 13 -- like a -- what do you call it -- just a standard pay 14 phone somewhere in the Park. I -- I'm not sure which 15 phone I was referring to. 16 Q: And were you suggesting, at this 17 time, that you would go down with Mark Wright and Brad 18 Seltzer? 19 A: I don't believe I suggested that I go 20 down but the reference certainly seems to insinuate that. 21 Q: And... 22 A: But I -- I certainly don't recall 23 that I -- I don't recall being prepared to 24 go down, I had more than my fair share of 25 things to do where I was.
1211 Q: Then there's a note: 2 "Inspector Carson advised that the 3 blockade committee is meeting for a 4 consensus on the injunction." 5 And what was the source of that 6 information, Mr. Kobayashi, or someone else? 7 A: From the information, as we're going 8 through this, it would have had to been, at this point, 9 from Kobayashi. 10 Q: Okay. And then there's a note at 11 11:15 hours. 12 "Detective Sergeant Wright advised that 13 Inspector Robinson called and stated 14 that the MNR chopper would be here 15 around 14:00 hours. Inspector to call 16 back. Detective Sergeant Richardson to 17 call standard chopper as backup." 18 And what's the reference to standard 19 chopper? 20 A: I'm not sure. Okay. 21 Q: Then at 11:17 there's a note about a 22 discussion regarding negotiators took place. 23 "Sergeant Seltzer once again stated 24 that the same person should negotiate 25 all the way through. Inspector Carson
1221 agreed. Sergeant Seltzer suggested 2 talking to Vince George. Inspector 3 Carson that he is hesitant to do so. 4 This because Vince George has to live 5 here with the people -- these people. 6 Sergeant Seltzer also talked to Lorne 7 Smith. He is not sure whether he wants 8 to negotiate because he also lives in 9 the area. He does not want to cause 10 concerns for his family. 11 Detective Wright -- Sergeant Wright 12 suggested bringing in Sergeant Marg 13 Eve. John Carson enquires to Mark 14 Wright about ERT. Mark Wright advises 15 Number 2 District ERT just arrived." 16 And if I could take you to page 483 of 17 Exhibit 427, excuse me, 403 I believe it. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: 403? 22 Q: Yeah, 423, excuse me. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1231 A: Yes. 2 Q: And there's a note, "BS", I take it 3 that's Brad Seltzer? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: "Talked with Lorne. Now he's not 6 sure because he also has to still live 7 here. Bothered by letters in '89. 8 Contact is giving some family problems. 9 Discussed just taking his advice that 10 he be here or there. Does not want to 11 cause concerns for his family." 12 The words: 13 "bothered by letters in '89, contact is 14 giving some family problems. Discussed 15 just taking his advice, not be here or 16 there" is left out of the typed scribe 17 notes? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: And do you recall today what the 20 reference to "letters in '89" is? 21 A: There were some issues that Lorne 22 Smith had in 1989 relative to his duties around First 23 Nations liaison work at Kettle Point that caused some 24 distress for him and his family, and I suspect that he's 25 shared some of that with Sergeant Seltzer in his
1241 conversation. 2 Q: Okay. Then at the top of page 33, 3 this issue continues: 4 "Brad Seltzer suggested to John Carson 5 that we use a native negotiator in the 6 negotiations. Inspector Carson advised 7 Sergeant Seltzer to contact Vince 8 George. Inspector Carson brought up 9 concerns about Vince George. He 10 doesn't want him to have to suffer 11 after we leave. Sergeant Carson stated 12 that we need my cousin but he's on 13 vacation. 14 John Carson would like initial contact 15 with Vince George and then switch to a 16 negotiator. It was decided to bring 17 Sergeant Eve in on 06/Sept '95. 18 Have Marg Eve and Vince George, and 19 then change Vince George to Mike 20 Hudson. 21 Brad Seltzer to check with Vince 22 George. John Carson stresses to Brad 23 Seltzer if Vince George is 24 uncomfortable helping us, we respect 25 that.
1251 Discussion on whether Vince George 2 should be used as a negotiator or as 3 someone to help us behind the scenes in 4 identifying people. 5 Sergeant Seltzer to make arrangements 6 for the communications centre, to find 7 someone else to work for her tonight." 8 And the discussion that's reported here, 9 that's referring to using Mr. -- Constable George as a 10 negotiator and... 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And you -- what were your concerns? 13 Does this statement accurately capture the concerns that 14 you had back in 1995? 15 A: That -- that's the gist of it, yes. 16 Vince George is a constable, at that time, with the OPP 17 Detachment at Forest, and I was concerned that he would 18 be seen in a negative light by the occupiers for having 19 the intermediary type role. And I didn't want him to 20 face community issues after these events were completed. 21 If we go back to some of our discussions 22 earlier in regards to the relationship with the officers 23 at Kettle Point, there was already some strain in the 24 community, particularly with Miles Bressette, around 25 Vince George and Luke George coming and going on Kettle
1261 Point. And I -- I certainly didn't want to aggravate 2 some tenuous relationships that already exist. 3 Q: Okay. And then, there's a note: 4 "Inspector Carson to call London PD in 5 regards to getting LAV's -- L-A-V's -- 6 that's light armoured vehicles? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And you then had a conversation with 9 Deputy Chief Elgin? 10 A: Elgin Austin? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Yes. He's the Deputy Chief of London 13 Police. 14 Q: Okay. And at -- that's at Tab 9 of 15 the book of transcripts, it's noted as 11:31 in the 16 scribe notes, but it's noted at 11:24:41 the time on the 17 logger tape? 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 20 21 John CARSON and D/Chief AUSTIN LPS 22 23 September 5, 1995 24 TIME: 11:24:41 hours 25 Track 3.wav
1271 MALE: (In background) People who are trained to 2 drive it. 3 CARSON: (To background) Yeah. 4 MALE: (In background) There are a couple guys 5 (u/i). The other guys are (u/i). The rest 6 of the guys are in position. 7 MALE: (Background) as I said (u/i). 8 FEMALE: D/Chief Austin's office Cathy O'FLINT 9 speaking. 10 CARSON: Yes it's Inspector CARSON OPP. Could I 11 speak to the Deputy please? 12 FEMALE: Um just a moment please. 13 CARSON: Deputy Chief (u/i) AUSTIN, London PD. 14 MALE: (In background) We'll look after getting 15 our own people trained on the thing. 16 CARSON: Yeah. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: The person in the background there is 20 Mark Wright? 21 A: Sounded like him. 22 Q: And he -- was Mark Wright the only 23 other person who was with you in the Command Post at 24 about this time, or others could have been there? 25 A: Any of the command team could have
1281 been there, but most likely it would have been Mark. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 4 5 MALE: (Background) (u/i). 6 MALE: (Background) Yeah. 7 FEMALE: Hello. 8 CARSON: Hello. 9 FEMALE: I'm sorry I thought he was in the 10 building, but um apparently he's gone to a 11 meeting, so. 12 CARSON: Okay do you expect him back shortly? 13 FEMALE: Um just a moment I'll check and see if 14 they know how long he'll be. 15 CARSON: Thank you. (To background) at a meeting. 16 (Background) (u/i). 17 FEMALE: Probably until about one (1). 18 CARSON: Okay could you have him ah call me back at 19 seven (7) eight (8) six (6) one (1) two 20 (2) six (6) two (2). 21 FEMALE: Okay is this Inspector CARSON? 22 CARSON: Yeah and I guess if he would treat it as 23 relatively important (laughs). 24 FEMALE: Okay. 25 CARSON: If you don't mind ah.
1291 FEMALE: Do you want me to put urgent down then? 2 CARSON: Yeah, if you would. 3 FEMALE: Okay. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 FEMALE: Yeah. 6 CARSON: Thank you. 7 FEMALE: You're welcome. 8 CARSON: Thanks. 9 FEMALE: Bye. 10 11 End of conversation. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: The -- you then called General Motors 15 Diesel? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And that was with Mr. Logan at GM 18 Diesel? 19 A: Yes, Cliff Logan. 20 Q: Cliff Logan? 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 23 24 John CARSON and Cliff LOGAN GMC 25 September 5, 1995
1301 TIME: 11:27:47 hours 2 Track 3.wav 3 4 CARSON: (to background) What's going on here? My 5 telephones not working. 6 (dial tone) 7 (phone dialling) 8 CARSON: (To background) Yeah, they confused me. 9 Oh, it's ringing. 10 FEMALE: (U/I) training how can I help you? 11 CARSON: Can I have extension six (6) six (6) three 12 (3) five (5) please? 13 FEMALE: Six (6) six (6) three (3) five (5) is that 14 for Tim (u/i)? 15 CARSON: Oh Cliff LOGAN. 16 FEMALE: Cliff LOGAN let me just confirm. That's 17 the right extension just a moment. 18 CARSON: Thank you. 19 (To background) You missed a a 20 presentation there last (u/i). 21 MALE: (In background) Yeah I missed it I heard 22 about it. 23 MALE: Training, Tim speaking. 24 CARSON: Hi ah this is ah John CARSON, Inspector 25 with OPP.
1311 MALE: Uh huh. 2 CARSON: Um I have a contact name here of Cliff 3 LOGAN in regards to ah ah an agreement you 4 have with London PD and your light 5 armoured vehicles. 6 MALE: Yes. 7 CARSON: Ah have I got the right guy here. 8 MALE: No, I'll ah I'll hook you up with him in 9 just a second here. 10 CARSON: Thank you. 11 MALE: Cliff. 12 LOGAN: Cliff LOGAN: 13 CARSON: Hi Cliff, ah it's John CARSON. I'm an 14 Inspector with the Ontario Provincial 15 Police. 16 LOGAN: Yes. 17 CARSON: Um sorry to call you on short notice and 18 ah and I ah was talking to ah London 19 Police yesterday. 20 LOGAN: Yeah. 21 CARSON: In in regards to their agreement with you 22 for the use of ah armoured vehicle. 23 LOGAN: Yes. 24 CARSON: Um I understand they have ah couple folks 25 ah trained to operate it and you have some
1321 agreement if if they have a need to to 2 have use of one. 3 LOGAN: Yes. 4 CARSON: Um is there any difficulty with that use 5 being extended to us if there was a 6 requirement? 7 LOGAN: What I would have to do is put you in 8 contact with our like our administrative 9 folks that that made this arrangement. 10 All I'm actually responsible, are that 11 that like like passing the buck, but what 12 we do here is ah we take the ah guys out 13 and and periodically ah give them training 14 on the vehicle. 15 CARSON: Yes. 16 LOGAN: Refreshers on on driving and stuff like 17 that. 18 CARSON: Right. 19 LOGAN: And I would give them training, your guys 20 training say you choose two (2) or (3) 21 people to to be operators. We would take 22 them out and train them and get them 23 qualified. 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 LOGAN: And pass there ah drivers (u/i).
1331 CARSON: But if ah, how about if ah London Police 2 supplied the drivers and and they operate 3 em for us? 4 LOGAN: Um that's between you guys and the London 5 Police. We deliver the vehicle in in the 6 case of of a need we deliver the vehicle 7 to them and then they can they they're 8 responsible from then on. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 LOGAN: If they wanted to do that, yep. 11 CARSON: (U/I). 12 LOGAN: I don't see a problem. 13 CARSON: Okay could you do some checking on that 14 yeah from the perspective ah just just so 15 that you know I don't know if you have 16 listened to the news this morning or not 17 but we've had an issue at Ipperwash 18 Provincial Park with a native group. 19 LOGAN: Yes yes. 20 CARSON: Okay we have no need at this point but I I 21 would just to be prepared in the event 22 that we do. 23 LOGAN: Understood. 24 CARSON: Ah there are some issues happening in BC 25 apparently as we speak according to the
1341 news as well. 2 LOGAN: Yep. 3 CARSON: That are similar in nature. 4 LOGAN: Yep. 5 CARSON: Um if ah we found that we had a need for 6 the vehicle and if London Police was 7 prepared to supply the driver ah I guess I 8 would just like to to know you know in 9 advance that that you know that would be 10 okay with you guys. 11 LOGAN: Legal implications okay I can check on 12 that yep. 13 CARSON: Uh my phone number here I I'm at Forest ah 14 ah in the Command Centre. 15 LOGAN: Uhum. 16 CARSON: Is seven (7) eight (8) six (6) twelve (12) 17 six (6) two (2). 18 LOGAN: Seven (7) eight (8) six (6) twelve (12) 19 six (6) two (2) and that's area code seven 20 (7) O (0) five (5)? 21 CARSON: Five (5) one (1) nine (9). 22 LOGAN: Okay five (5) one (1) nine (9) it's hard 23 to tell. Yep. 24 CARSON: And ah ah if ah if if that is a no problem 25 from you I I would like to know as soon as
1351 it is convenient for you to let us know 2 that. 3 LOGAN: Okay and your name again please? 4 CARSON: John CARSON. 5 LOGAN: John CARSON. Yep. 6 CARSON: Um like I say we we don't have identified 7 need right now but that potential exists. 8 LOGAN: Preparation in planning yep. 9 CARSON: Yeah and ah you know as far as making 10 arrangements like for training of our 11 people and the agreements ah you know ah I 12 think we can pursue that at a later date 13 and um um you know. 14 LOGAN: Yep. 15 CARSON: Ah ah a more ah (laugh). 16 LOGAN: Yep. 17 CARSON: Other type of a basis I guess. 18 LOGAN: As a matter a fact I'm taking ah I'm 19 taking the London Police out starting 20 tomorrow for ah the next week or so to do 21 refreshers. 22 CARSON: Oh okay and ah I'm I'm just waiting for a 23 call back from Deputy Chief AUSTIN ah to 24 discuss those other issues with him if 25 they will supply ah their people to ah you
1361 know if I can get you know your approval 2 to use vehicle if it is required so ah we 3 can address that ah probably in an hour or 4 so. 5 LOGAN: Okay I'll a. 6 CARSON: I'd just like to get those ducks lined up 7 if you would. 8 LOGAN: Yeah I can I can check into it. 9 CARSON: I'd appreciate it. 10 LOGAN: No problem at all. 11 CARSON: Thank you very much. 12 LOGAN: And I'll try and get a call back to you 13 this afternoon. 14 CARSON: Appreciate it. 15 LOGAN: No problem. 16 CARSON: Thank you. 17 LOGAN: Bye bye. 18 19 End of conversation. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And then the -- I note in the scribe 23 notes that you were advised that the HH Graham from 24 Kincardine is on its way, and that Sergeant -- Detective 25 Sergeant Wright advises that Detective Sergeant
1371 Richardson had gone to Sarnia to obtain warrants? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And that's with respect to warrants 4 for the arrest of the people involved in the altercation 5 on September the 4th? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Then you called Inspector Parkin and 8 reported to him. It's Tab 11 in the book of transcripts 9 which is noted at 11:37:42, and in the scribe notes it's 10 noted as 11:42. And this is -- we will hear a report by 11 you? 12 A: Yes. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 15 16 John CARSON and Tony PARKIN 17 September 5, 1995 18 TIME: 11:37:42 hours 19 Track 3.wav 20 21 (Phone ringing) 22 MALE: OPP Western Region, Wayne EDGINTON 23 speaking. 24 CARSON: Wayne EDGINTON, how are yah? 25 EDGINTON: I'm very well.
1381 CARSON: Did you get your car? 2 EDGINTON: I got my car. 3 CARSON: Okay I. 4 EDGINTON: Where where did you leave the keys? 5 CARSON: There on my desk. 6 EDGINTON: Oh are they okay. 7 CARSON: Yeah. 8 EDGINTON: Then I can find them. 9 CARSON: Yeah you just got to find somebody with a 10 key to let you into get in my room. 11 EDGINTON: (Laughs That could be the problem. 12 CARSON: Yeah yeah is ah Superintendent PARKIN 13 handy? 14 EDGINTON: He is so just hang on. 15 CARSON: Thanks. 16 MALE: (background) How is the ERT Team for 17 bodies? 18 MALE: (background) I'm ah all all I've got 19 (u/i). 20 PARKIN: Hello John. 21 CARSON: Hi. 22 PARKIN: How are you? 23 CARSON: Not bad. Ah we had a little get together 24 here. The ah Crime guys are en route to 25 an Sarnia, going to get the warrant for
1391 our friends who done a little wrecky down 2 there. There's ah several people ah near 3 the main gate. Three (3) three (3) guys 4 ah chopping down trees ah looks like they 5 are going to try and block the entrance 6 gate and ah apparently there is suppose to 7 an inner ministerial meeting at ah eleven 8 hundred (1100) according to MNR to discuss 9 their support of the injunction. Ah Eddie 10 ROBERTSON is arranging for helicopter for 11 us which hopefully we'll have one here by 12 two (2) o'clock to have an eye above to 13 for the (u/i). 14 PARKIN: Is there a Ministry meeting? 15 CARSON: Eleven (11) o'clock. 16 PARKIN: And it's ah re support for the ah. 17 CARSON: Injunction. 18 PARKIN: Okay okay ah did you talk to anybody? 19 CARSON: Ah we haven't been able to talk to anybody 20 yet ah we're we're trying to get a get a 21 reign for Vince GEORGE who you know he 22 knows all the players down there. 23 PARKIN: Uhum. 24 CARSON: See see if he's comfortable ah coming in 25 and and being a spokesperson for today
1401 until we can get a handle on who the 2 players are and who the best negotiators 3 would be. 4 PARKIN: Okay. 5 CARSON: Um. 6 PARKIN: The video. 7 CARSON: Yes. 8 PARKIN: Ah has anybody. Do we know whether it's 9 working or not? 10 CARSON: Ah I don't know. TSB ah have been advised 11 and they have somebody on the way down 12 here I understand. 13 PARKIN: Okay so that's being pursued MR. HALT: 14 because if if one of thems at the main 15 gate that would be beneficial. 16 CARSON: That's right. 17 PARKIN: Okay um your line you are you on the 18 direct line now. 19 CARSON: Yes. 20 PARKIN: Is it taped also? 21 CARSON: Yes. 22 PARKIN: So all the your private line is taped? 23 CARSON: Right. 24 PARKIN: Command Post. 25 CARSON: Yes.
1411 PARKIN: Forest Detachment. 2 CARSON: No only only the Command trailer. 3 PARKIN: Only the Command trailer. Ah we're 4 probably going to need a line at some 5 point in time where we can talk to you. 6 CARSON: I can go into the Detachment and call you 7 and and it won't be ah taped. 8 PARKIN: Okay. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 PARKIN: We may have to do that off and on. 11 CARSON: Well in fact I I can just make a point of 12 going into the Detachment when I call yah. 13 PARKIN: Yeah well you know it's just that. 14 CARSON: No I understand. 15 PARKIN: Down the road it may become an issue. 16 CARSON: Yep yep I can appreciate that. 17 PARKIN: Ah okay I've got a a Ministry meeting at 18 eleven hundred (1100) hours re support for 19 injunction. Ah Doug BABBITT. 20 CARSON: Yes. 21 PARKIN: Is he dealing with Marilyn MURRAY or Media 22 Relations? 23 CARSON: He hasn't yet because there really hasn't 24 been nothing of any controversy yet. 25 PARKIN: Okay okay. I'll call him then cause we
1421 want to make sure that he does that 2 because all we we want to make sure is 3 that the MNR can't start making press 4 releases that we're not aware of. 5 CARSON: Their their their person is right there 6 with us. 7 PARKIN: Who is that? 8 CARSON: Ah Darryl SMITH. 9 PARKIN: Darryl SMITH. 10 CARSON: Yep. They're they're side by side down 11 there. 12 PARKIN: MNR media eh? 13 CARSON: That's right. 14 PARKIN: Well who would he deal with on his 15 releases? I guess he would have to run by 16 somebody. 17 CARSON: Ah I believe Peter STURDY would be the 18 guy. 19 PARKIN: Okay um okay so basically that's ah the 20 warrants are being obtained. Threes are 21 being chopped down at the main gate or 22 that's your information anyway. 23 CARSON: Yep yep we had guys down and plain clothes 24 guys down in there. They walked in they 25 walked up the beach there like along the
1431 waterfront. 2 PARKIN: Yeah. 3 CARSON: So they could see nobody ah approached 4 them. What we what we may attempt to do 5 here in a little while is maybe send in a 6 half a dozen or ten guys just to walk up 7 the beach and see ah you know how they 8 react to that. But I'd just like to have 9 the cover of the helicopter there so that 10 they have an eye of who's moving where 11 inside the park. 12 PARKIN: Yeah which boat are you going to put out 13 in the water? 14 CARSON: Well the fou (u/i) the ah the Limestone 15 out of Grand Bend is is in the water now 16 and the H.H. Graham will take the night 17 shift. The big the big one out there. 18 PARKIN: H.H. Graham. 19 CARSON: Yeah that's the Kincardine boat. 20 PARKIN: Ah for nighttime? 21 CARSON: Yeah like it's a it's a thirty-four (34) 22 footer eh. 23 PARKIN: Uh huh okay. 24 CARSON: Any anything on the nes ah from BC at all? 25 PARKIN: Yeah, well there was shots fired there
1441 last night. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 PARKIN: And ah that one seems to be escalating. 4 CARSON: Yeah. 5 PARKIN: We still have no signs of any weapons? 6 CARSON: None. There there we saw one (1) rifle 7 yesterday. It was in the trunk of a car 8 but ah the guy didn't ah there was some 9 attempt to ah take it out and he was told 10 by one of his own people to put it away. 11 So there there are hunting rifles around 12 there, there is no doubt about it. 13 PARKIN: Now this car was in the park? 14 CARSON: Yep yep it was ah when the you know 15 confabs going on last night down there. 16 PARKIN: Okay well that's kind of so there was a 17 rifle in the trunk? 18 CARSON: Yep. 19 PARKIN: Um. A native tried to take it out. 20 car Yep. 21 PARKIN: But was ah told not to by his own people. 22 CARSON: That's right. 23 PARKIN: Have we tried to establish any negotiation 24 any discussion? 25 CARSON: Well they told us last night they would
1451 talk to us at noon and there's there's, we 2 really haven't had ah an opportunity to to 3 do that yet. 4 PARKIN: When they said that did they say like 5 where or how? 6 CARSON: No no that that they there there was an 7 awful lot of alcohol involved there last 8 night so there really wasn't a lot of 9 coherence if you would. 10 PARKIN: They were all pissed up eh? 11 CARSON: Yep that's right. 12 PARKIN: Okay. Um do we plan on ah going down to 13 somewhere near the front gate and ah 14 trying to talk to them? 15 CARSON: What we're going to do that shortly, but I 16 was just trying to find out you know what 17 was happening with helicopters and those 18 kinds of things before we you know got 19 forward and you know you know had to deal 20 with another issue before we knew what our 21 you know. 22 PARKIN: Yep. 23 CARSON: What our back up was. 24 PARKIN: Yep. 25 CARSON: So I think we're getting pretty near to
1461 that now. 2 PARKIN: Okay. 3 CARSON: Okay. You getting a little more 4 comfortable with where we are? 5 PARKIN: Uhum. 6 CARSON: And the number of bodies et cetera. So I 7 think it's starting to shake up now but 8 we'll have to go down there and and and 9 have chat and see what they have to say 10 and I mean that is the next step now. 11 We've pretty much you know. 12 PARKIN: So do you think they it would be nice to 13 see if the Marine guy can see anything. 14 See whether or not they're starting to dig 15 in I mean if their starting to chop down 16 trees. 17 CARSON: Yeah. They intend to be there for a while 18 obviously. 19 PARKIN: Uhum. 20 CARSON: There is satellite trucks all over the 21 place up here. 22 PARKIN: Yeah. 23 CARSON: Yeah. 24 PARKIN: Uh nobodies bothering you? 25 CARSON: Nope not at all not at all. That that's
1471 been excellent ah they've been harassing 2 the daylights out of BABBITT I guess. 3 That's okay. 4 PARKIN: Yeah. Yep and we're going to have 24 hour 5 press? 6 CARSON: Yep yep it's taken care of. 7 PARKIN: Alright we've got Billy WATKINS (u/i) out 8 there to pick up a copy of the Operational 9 folder. 10 CARSON: He's just been in he just came in while I 11 was talking you and he's ah picked up the 12 plan. 13 PARKIN: Oh okay. 14 CARSON: Yeah. 15 PARKIN: Ah okay well I'll wait to hear from yah. 16 CARSON: Okay we'll work on the negotiations and ah 17 particularly where we're going to strive 18 for now and I'll call you back by two (2) 19 o'clock. 20 PARKIN: Okay. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 PARKIN: Thanks John. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 PARKIN: Okay. 25 CARSON: Thank you.
1481 End of conversation. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Then if I could take you to scribe 5 notes at page 34, after the entry, the six (6) line entry 6 with respect to that telephone call, there's a note: 7 "Sergeant Skinner had a discussion with 8 Inspector Carson regarding the TRU 9 team's role. Inspector Carson stated 10 their role is backup. 11 Told Sergeant Skinner to contact Staff 12 Sergeant Bill Dennis regarding bunking 13 facilities. Told him to have his team 14 report for 19:00 hours tonight. 15 Skinner advised that he has ten (10) 16 members available. Inspector Carson 17 advised Sergeant Skinner to sit on 18 briefing meetings. He agreed. 19 Inspector Skinner [or it should be, I 20 take it, Carson] directed Sergeant 21 Skinner to keep the gun vehicles out of 22 sight. Directed him to check with 23 Sergeant Bill Dennis and Sergeant Dan 24 Grant. 25 Inspector Carson gave Sergeant Skinner
1491 a background plan of the situation. 2 Kent Skinner asked about negotiations, 3 and John Carson said that he wanted to 4 talk to them shortly." 5 And with respect to this entry, had Mr. -- 6 Sergeant Skinner just arrived at the command post? 7 A: I believe that's accurate, yes. 8 Q: And you're reported to have stated 9 that their role is back-up; and is that correct? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And what did you mean by that? 12 A: It means that I wanted them, as is 13 indicated in the notes, that they would report to the 14 bunk house in the Ministry of Natural Resources Pinery 15 Park and that they would be available as needed. But 16 they did not have a particular role other than being 17 there for support for the operations as they progress. 18 Q: And there's a note: 19 "Told him to have his team report for 20 19:00 hours tonight." 21 And why 19:00 hours? 22 Q: Well, that's seven o'clock in the 23 evening. I wanted them positioned at the Pinery Park for 24 the evening so that in the event that there was going to 25 be a requirement to call somebody out during the night,
1501 that they were all close at hand. 2 During the day shift, they would all be 3 working anyway, in London. They would be able to rapidly 4 respond in the daylight hours, but at the end of the day 5 I wanted them closer by so we didn't have to call them up 6 out of bed from farther distance away. 7 And I also didn't want the gun trucks 8 motoring around the community. As I noted there, that I 9 expected them to take them to the Pinery Park and keep 10 them there out of -- out of public view. 11 Q: And can you tell us what the gun 12 trucks were back in 1995? 13 A: They were white, cube vans. Large, 14 well fairly large, like a -- I guess you would say a 5 15 tonne cube van, diesel trucks. So they were quite 16 noticeable as they move about, there's three (3) of them. 17 Q: And when you say a "cube van", it's a 18 van that has a -- what do you mean by cube? 19 A: Well, the -- the box -- there's a 20 normal cab and then behind the cab is a -- is the square 21 box van, which houses all their equipment. It's a large 22 enough van that the average person can stand upright in 23 it, so it's at least a seven (7) foot ceiling in it and 24 has the words "police" across -- in lettering, in 25 extremely bold letters.
1511 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Okay. Then -- so you wanted those 4 vans in Pinery Park out of sight, and why was that again? 5 A: I didn't want them travelling around 6 the community. Anyone who is aware of, you know, police 7 operations to any degree has ever seen these trucks move 8 about, they're the only ones at that point in time that 9 had that kind of vehicles. And I didn't want to present 10 any appearance that we were raising the anxiety level in 11 regards to the tools we had at our disposal. 12 Q: Okay. And although there's not a 13 note in the log, in the typewritten log, at or about this 14 time you had a discussion with Inspector Robertson on the 15 telephone. And if I could take you to Tab 12 of the book 16 of transcripts. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And it indicates a telephone call 19 with Mr. -- Inspector Robertson at 11:54? 20 A: Yes, it does. 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 23 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: For My Friends, this 25 actually starts on the second page of the transcript,
1521 page 74. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 6 7 John CARSON and Ed ROBERTSON 8 9 September 5, 1995 10 TIME: 11:54:20 hours 11 Track 1.wav 12 13 ROBERTSON: Hello how are you today John? 14 CARSON: Oh just dandy. 15 ROBERTSON: Anything you need (u/i). 16 CARSON: Just a helicopter. 17 ROBERTSON: The best I can do is probably around 18 fourteen hundred (1400) around sixteen 19 hundred (1600) sorry. 20 CARSON: Oh okay ah who have you got coming? 21 ROBERTSON: I have got an MNR a Start coming out of 22 Sudbury but ah we're just scrambling a 23 crew to get to right now. 24 CARSON: Okay well if that's the best we can do the 25 best we can do. It just that before we do
1531 anything I'd like to have an eye you know 2 so we have some idea what's the movement 3 is in there before we move people in any 4 particular spot. 5 ROBERTSON: Yeah I'll I'll cancel the request for the 6 RCMP one. 7 CARSON: Yeah. 8 ROBERTSON: Um because Chris and I appreciate his 9 concern um. 10 CARSON: But because of the BC. 11 ROBERTSON: Profile. 12 CARSON: Yep yep no and it's a valid point ah um. 13 ROBERTSON: I just told him I said Chris I go wherever 14 I can get a helicopter and I just start 15 making calls and then when I find one I 16 send it. 17 CARSON: Yeah well that's right and you know there 18 are some over lying issues here today so. 19 ROBERTSON: That's right if you need one desperately 20 then you'll get one and I don't know 21 whether the colours on it make much 22 difference at that point. 23 CARSON: Yeah yeah. Well that's fine and ah ah the 24 MNR guy be available for us for you know a 25 few days?
1541 ROBERTSON: Ah we don't know John. 2 CARSON: Okay okay. 3 ROBERTSON: Ah he's I had to pull him out of fire and 4 that takes a lot of. 5 CARSON: Oh yeah okay. 6 ROBERTSON: Okay. 7 CARSON: Okay. 8 ROBERTSON: And we'll have to access it as we go. 9 CARSON: Yep yep. 10 ROBERTSON: Um. 11 CARSON: Yeah like if we can get in there and get 12 our our situation ah stabilized so we 13 we're, we're comfortable with it we may 14 not require it, but I think initial stages 15 if we try to insert into the park we have 16 to make sure that we have ah you know an 17 eye so that we don't get ambushed. 18 ROBERTSON: Yep. 19 CARSON: Just to be careful. Yeah. 20 ROBERTSON: Can you get ah ah your man there to call 21 the RCMP liaison guy? 22 CARSON: Yeah. 23 ROBERTSON: Just ask him to put a hold on that 24 request. 25 CARSON: Ah to call ah who (u/i).
1551 ROBERTSON: Oh I can call this KEEGAN guy myself. 2 Apparently the liaison guy is supposed to 3 be a Mike KEEGAN. 4 CARSON: Mike Keegan oh yeah. He's a JFO 5 Intelligence down here. 6 ROBERTSON: Yeah. 7 CARSON: Okay. Do you want us to call him? 8 ROBERTSON: Ah oh my understanding was he was supposed 9 to have been at the Command Post so. 10 CARSON: Well if he is, unless he's in the other, 11 like I'm out in the trailer unless he's in 12 the office right now. I have, I haven't 13 seen him personally. 14 ROBERTSON: Okay if he shows up. 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 ROBERTSON: Ask him to cancel the request and I'll 17 make a personal phone call as well. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 ROBERTSON: Alright. 20 CARSON: Not a problem. 21 ROBERTSON: If you need anything yell. 22 CARSON: Okay well I think we are in pretty good 23 shape ah ah but like I say we appreciate 24 that and if we need something we will we 25 won't hesitate.
1561 ROBERTSON: Now we rounded a bunch of two (2) two (2) 2 three (3)s and shot guns and all those 3 kinds of things for you so if you need 4 them. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 ROBERTSON: Alright. 7 CARSON: Appreciate it. 8 ROBERTSON: Okay John. 9 CARSON: Thanks Ed. 10 ROBERTSON: Take care. 11 12 End of conversation. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Then, Inspector Robinson, as you told 16 us earlier was -- part of his responsibility was in 17 logistics, to obtain things like helicopters? 18 A: Yes, his branch at that time, looked 19 after helicopters, the emergency response areas of the 20 organization, the -- basically the support of ERT teams, 21 TRU teams, scuba, those kinds of emergency services. 22 Q: Okay. And there's a reference in 23 this telephone conversation about Chris. I take it 24 that's Chief Superintendent Chris Coles? 25 A: Yes, it is.
1571 Q: And a concern about the RCMP 2 helicopter? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what was your understanding if 5 you had one, about the concern with respect to the RCMP 6 helicopter? 7 A: Well, I think there would be a couple 8 -- couple issues. 9 One (1), that it would appear or could -- 10 could be perceived that with the RCMP helicopter showing 11 up that the -- the level of involvement had been raised 12 now from, you know, the Provincial Police to the RCMP, 13 although -- although it's simply a support piece of 14 equipment. And the other part of that is, there may be 15 seen as some relationship to the activities going on at 16 Gustafson Lake. 17 So, both of those kinds of issues, I'm 18 sure would be -- or , it -- it ought to be something to 19 be thought through. 20 Q: And you hadn't had a discussion about 21 this with Chief Coles, yourself? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: Then, you indicate to him that once 24 the situation is stabilized: 25 "We may not require the helicopter, but
1581 I think initial stages, if we try to 2 insert into the Park, we have to make 3 sure that we have, you know, an eye so 4 that we don't get ambushed." 5 And the reference is to insert into the 6 Park is to what? 7 A: Well, as -- as I mentioned in the 8 other phone call about attempting to have some officers 9 walk in and see what's going on was to provide and eye in 10 the sky as -- as officers would walk in there. The fact 11 of the matter is, that never took place. 12 Q: And it -- the insertion into the 13 Park, was it to remove the occupiers or to stay in the 14 Park with the Occupiers? 15 A: It would be to go in the Park to stay 16 there, just to -- going back to the term, "cohabitate." 17 Q: And if I might, there's a note at 18 12:12: 19 "Detective Sergeant Mark Wright, 20 Sergeant Brad Seltzer and Les 21 Kobayashi, MNR gone to the Park." 22 And there's a -- that's noted at 12:12. 23 There's a radio transmission that you may or may not have 24 heard on the September the 5th and I'm going to play it, 25 it's, I'm told, at 12:35.
1591 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 LIMA 2 to Checkpoint Charlie- FYI the D/S 4 (Det. Sgt) has gone to the gate to have a 5 chat with the occupiers. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And there's it says: 9 "For information the Detective Sergeant 10 has gone to the gate to have a chat 11 with the occupiers." 12 I think it said Lima 2 to checkpoint 13 Charlie and Charlie was the checkpoint on Army Camp Road 14 by the Silver Birch cottages -- trailer park? 15 A: I'd have to refer to the map. But 16 that makes sense. 17 Q: And then Lima 2 was at the MNR 18 parking lot? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: Then you had a call with Sergeant 21 Babbitt at 12:10 and it's at 13 in the book of 22 transcripts. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 25
1601 Doug BABBITT and John CARSON 2 3 September 5, 1995 4 TIME: 12:10:12 hours 5 Track 3.wav 6 7 MALE: OPP media. 8 CARSON: Hi Doug BABBITT please. 9 MALE: Just one moment please. 10 BABBITT: Sgt. BABBITT. 11 CARSON: Hi Doug. 12 BABBITT: Hi. 13 CARSON: John here. 14 BABBITT: Yes John. 15 CARSON: Hows it going? 16 BABBITT: Oh not too bad. 17 CARSON: Ah. 18 BABBITT: Tom BRESSETTE'S on the radio right now eh. 19 CARSON: Is he? 20 BABBITT: On CBC ah J.J.'s listening to him I was 21 listening to him. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 BABBITT: For his position on it. 24 CARSON: Okay how's that going? 25 BABBITT: Oh good he says he doesn't condone what's
1611 going on there their position is that they 2 deal through the courts in the legal 3 terms. The don't ah support what's going 4 on down there. 5 CARSON: Good good. 6 BABBITT: So I I called yeah. 7 CARSON: Yes. 8 BABBITT: And I had this phone call and I wish my 9 line I could tape it but I can't to play 10 it exactly for yah. But no doubt it was 11 the ah native female. 12 CARSON: Right. 13 BABBITT: Um claiming to be from 66 News but I mean 14 she was asking things wanting to know what 15 we thought what our position was. Ah who 16 we'd been in contact with. Things that 17 she knew we hadn't done. Ah but when we 18 rapped up she says is there anything else 19 you want to say like that that's not a 20 reporter. 21 CARSON: Right. 22 BABBITT: Um you know and she kind of giggled and 23 that MR. HALT: and I said no but I 24 indicated that we were there to stay. We 25 weren't leaving.
1621 CARSON: Right. 2 BABBITT: And that we're looking for a peaceful 3 resolution to this ah, she asked about 4 weapons. 5 CARSON: Right. 6 BABBITT: I said we have no reason to believe that 7 they're armed in there and that our 8 there's ah any threat to anyone as far as 9 that is concerned. That all our dealings 10 with them in the past have been fairly 11 reasonable. 12 CARSON: Yep. 13 BABBITT: Ah we don't anticipate problems this time 14 from em. 15 CARSON: Good that's good. 16 BABBITT: So ah I just I just thought I'd let you 17 know and that I know it wasn't a reporter. 18 CARSON: Right okay. 19 BABBITT: So. 20 CARSON: That's good. 21 BABBITT: Okay. 22 CARSON: That's good. Um ah what the hell was I 23 going to tell yah. Ah you know the Crime 24 guys are going down and picking up the 25 warrants yeah.
1631 BABBITT: Yes they said that. 2 CARSON: Okay so you can kind of prepare to make a 3 release at that time. 4 BABBITT: Yeah we're we're roughing one in right 5 now. 6 CARSON: Are are they ah have you you should touch 7 base with Marilyn MURRAY. 8 BABBITT: Well she's off today. I've already tried 9 to do that. 10 CARSON: Oh okay. 11 BABBITT: I've talked to Terry and. 12 CARSON: Oh okay. 13 BABBITT: They're aware of what's going on here. 14 CARSON: Oh okay. 15 BABBITT: Err at least they were there to support 16 us. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 BABBITT: They said between eight (8) and four (4). 19 CARSON: Okay (laughs). 20 BABBITT: Laughs. 21 CARSON: Well that's good ah as long as they know. 22 BABBITT: Yeah they're well aware. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 BABBITT: We're faxing stuff to them. 25 CARSON: Okay that's fine. Um ah everything's
1641 working okay for you? 2 BABBITT: Ah yes for now. I don't have a computer 3 yet and I don't anticipate receiving one 4 probably but I think we're going to be 5 leaving here on Friday anyways if this 6 continues on and going to Grand Bend. 7 CARSON: Well ah ah a minor change in that we're 8 looking at ah the old Pinery Detachment. 9 BABBITT: Oh okay. 10 CARSON: Uh we've got to look at if we can get some 11 telephones and a little bit of furniture 12 in there. 13 BABBITT: Yep. 14 CARSON: But I'd like to see it happen. Thursday 15 morning. 16 BABBITT: Sure. 17 CARSON: So if we can do that between today and all 18 day tomorrow. 19 BABBITT: Sure. 20 CARSON: Tomorrow you can say as of Thursday 21 morning eight (8) a.m. we'll be at Pinery. 22 BABBITT: Sure that's good. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 BABBITT: Yep. 25 CARSON: And and I think it's a little better for
1651 you. 2 BABBITT: Yep. 3 CARSON: Yeah. 4 BABBITT: Yeah it's just that this is a temporary 5 thing and I can see that we've going to 6 have to move once so that I just as soon 7 it be once and only once. 8 CARSON: That's right that's right and then I think 9 the Pinery location is a pretty good 10 location. 11 BABBITT: I never even thought of it. 12 CARSON: Ah they got ah you know a classroom 13 downstairs if if you need that much room. 14 BABBITT: Yep. 15 CARSON: And ah if there is only a few then you can 16 stay upstairs. 17 BABBITT: Yep. 18 CARSON: So you know it's a good place and 19 BABBITT: Sure. 20 CARSON: and easy for you to control and there is 21 little or no furniture in there whatsoever 22 so just a couple of tables, a couple 23 telephones, ah 24 BABBITT: Yep. 25 CARSON: You can put your computer and the
1661 typewriter on and you should be okay. 2 BABBITT: Sounds good. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 BABBITT: Thanks. 5 CARSON: So we're working on that for yah. 6 BABBITT: Okay. 7 CARSON: All right anything else we can do? 8 BABBITT: No nothing right now. We're going to go 9 I've got a couple people waiting here for 10 an interview and then. 11 CARSON: Okay. What kind of kind of ah ah ah 12 interest have we got so far. 13 BABBITT: Ah ah great. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 BABBITT: I think they're being extremely honest and 16 so are we though. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 BABBITT: So I would like to keep it that way. 19 CARSON: Yeah like we we got nothing to hide. 20 BABBITT: That's right. 21 CARSON: As soon as we get the other stuff there 22 we'll be dealing with it and we're working 23 you know feverishly as we can on all the 24 issues. 25 BABBITT: Sounds good.
1671 CARSON: Okay. 2 BABBITT: Thanks John. 3 CARSON: Thanks Doug. We'll see you bye. 4 BABBITT: Bye. 5 6 End of conversation. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And, Inspector -- Deputy Carson, is 10 it Sergeant Babbitt says at -- is part of this call. He 11 told the person he spoke to on the telephone that: 12 "We have no reason to believe that 13 they're armed in there and that our -- 14 there's any threat to anyone as far as 15 that is concerned, that all our 16 dealings with them in the past have 17 been fairly reasonable." 18 You say, Yes. 19 "And we don't anticipate problems this 20 time from them. 21 Carson: Good, that's good." 22 And you agreed with Sergeant Babbitt's 23 assessment at the time, sir? 24 A: I'm not sure I would categorize that 25 as an assessment, he -- he provided that information
1681 given who he thought the caller was. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: So, I would suggest to you that the 4 information he parroted back to that caller was based on 5 the fact that it was probably somebody trying to gather 6 intelligence information out of the Media Officer. So, 7 he was providing information to try to keep the caller of 8 the understanding that this was pretty much a low-key 9 event. 10 Q: Were you concerned at this point with 11 people having guns in the -- in the Park and that being a 12 threat to the OPP officers with guns? 13 A: I was certainly aware that there, in 14 all likelihood, was weapons in -- in the Park, of course, 15 because of -- of what had been seen in the trunk of a 16 vehicle the day previous. Did I have a concern they were 17 going to be turned on us? No, I didn't. 18 So, you know, what -- but what's important 19 here is that, you know, Sergeant Babbitt recognized the 20 call for what it was and was trying to insure that the 21 information wasn't ratcheted to raise any anxiety levels 22 at all. 23 Q: So, it's your understanding he was 24 trying to, for want of a better word, to keep the person 25 on the other side of the phone, who he thought was trying
1691 to get information, calm? 2 A: Correct, without playing any -- 3 playing any hand from the -- the police activities 4 perspective. 5 Q: Then if I could take you back to the 6 scribe notes, it's page 34, 12:22, you're advised that 7 the Grand Bend Unit is ready to go; that's the Grand Bend 8 boat? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And then the operators are briefed by 11 Detective Sergeant Parent? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Then there's a note page 35 at 13:12, 14 Sergeant Korosec advised that: 15 "Constable Cossitt, Number 6 District, 16 can operate a front-end loader. Also 17 advises that there are no night visions 18 available." 19 And that's with respect to night vision 20 goggles? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And then, at 13:26, Inspector Carson 23 advised Sergeant Korosec to make sure Sergeant -- Staff 24 Sergeant Dennis is aware that the TRU team is reporting 25 tonight by seven (7) hours -- seven o'clock, is that
1701 correct? 2 A: That's correct, 7:00 p.m. 3 Q: And Staff Sergeant Dennis was the 4 person tasked with making arrangements for the TRU team's 5 accommodations? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: Then, at 13:32, there's a note: 8 "Ed Vervoort, MNR, advised that Ron 9 Baldwin was still on the telephone 10 conference with the Blockade Committee. 11 He stated that there are two (2) kinds 12 of injunctions, a twenty-four (24) hour 13 emergency one or one that would take 14 two (2) or three (3) weeks to get. 15 Vervoort [excuse me] two (2) to four 16 (4) weeks to get. Vervoort passed on 17 the information from the briefing to 18 Baldwin. 19 Inspector Carson questions: If 20 Ministry of Natural Resources is not 21 prepared to get an injunction. 22 Ed Vervoort thinks they are prepared. 23 Doesn't know who isn't. Inspector 24 Carson states if it drags on, have to 25 discuss our media releases.
1711 John Carson advises that we have sixty 2 (60) people trying to secure the area. 3 Vervoort states he will inform 4 Inspector Carson as soon as they know 5 anything." 6 And this was a conversation you had with 7 Ed Vervoort? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And there's a note that -- about two 10 (2) -- two (2) different kinds of injunctions. Were you 11 aware at the time, in September of 1995, of different 12 types of injunctions? 13 A: I must confess that my knowledge of 14 court injunctions and the processes involved was very 15 naive at best. 16 Q: When you say "very naive", what was 17 your knowledge, if any? 18 A: I had participated in no incidents in 19 my career that involved the application or seeking of an 20 injunction; this was the first. 21 Q: So that you knew that -- what an 22 injunction was, it was an order, but you had never been 23 involved in obtaining one? 24 A: Correct and I wasn't quite informed, 25 I guess is probably the best term, as to the differences
1721 or the requirements in the application for what I might 2 call an ex parte or emergency order versus one that would 3 take longer. 4 Q: So you did -- at this time, you had 5 no idea what the differences were? 6 A: I didn't really appreciate the 7 difference. My big concern here was that we needed an 8 injunction and I was starting to get a little anxious 9 here when I started hearing discussion about, well, we're 10 not sure which order we're going to get. Is it going to 11 be -- or take a longer period of time to get it? 12 And they started using time lines like two 13 (2) weeks. Certainly it caught my attention very quickly 14 and -- so I started to challenge them as to, wait a 15 minute here, what's going on? 16 Like, are they serious about this or is 17 this -- or are they not serious about it? And if it's 18 going to take us two (2) weeks to get it then we need to 19 make sure our media releases start reflecting the time 20 lines and, you know, the -- and start doing some 21 appropriate information work to apprise the public as 22 well. 23 Q: Okay. Then there's a note: 24 "13:54, Detective Sergeant Wright 25 arrived back from the Park.
1731 He met with Bert Manning. Detective 2 Sergeant Wright advised that they're 3 very disorganized, very uncomfortable. 4 Want blockades to be renewed -- 5 removed. 6 Detective Sergeant Wright made it very 7 clear that they're trespassing. He 8 advised that he met Bert Manning at CFB 9 Ipperwash. Feels that Manning is not 10 comfortable with this. 11 Inspector Carson states that waiting 12 for the helicopter arrive, make plans 13 from there. Make patrols of Outer 14 Drive through Highway 21 property. 15 Detective Sergeant Wright stated that 16 he told Bert Manning that we weren't 17 going away. 18 Manning stated he wanted the blockades 19 removed. Wright told him definitely 20 not. Mark Wright advised that 21 tactically it is easy to get in the 22 Park at the canteen area." 23 And do you recall anything else of this -- 24 of the conversation with Mr. -- Detective Sergeant Wright 25 other than what's noted here?
1741 A: That's about all I can recall. 2 Q: And the canteen area is referring to 3 the Park store, off the sandy parking lot? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: Then at two o'clock, 14:00 hours, you 6 had a discussion with Deputy Chief Austin, a telephone 7 call? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that's call 14 for the benefit of 10 My Friends. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 13 14 John CARSON and D/Chief AUSTIN LPS 15 16 September 5, 1995 17 TIME: 13:53:10 hours 18 Track 3.wav 19 20 (Dialling of phone) 21 22 ARCHIBALD: Command Post ARCHIBALD. 23 AUSTIN: It's ah Deputy Chief AUSTIN calling from 24 London is John CARSON there? 25 ARCHIBALD: Just one moment please.
1751 (pause) 2 CARSON: Hogan. 3 AUSTIN: Hi John. 4 CARSON: How are yah? 5 AUSTIN: Good how are you. 6 CARSON: You don't want to know. 7 AUSTIN: All right. 8 CARSON: (Laughs). 9 AUSTIN: And secondly I'm sorry that I didn't get 10 back to you earlier I just got back in now 11 and saw your message so I called you. I 12 was down at the City Hall. 13 CARSON: No problem. 14 AUSTIN: (U/I) I had to be there. 15 CARSON: That's okay. Ah I guess ah Herb PREW 16 briefed you on our discussions yesterday. 17 I've ah spoke with GM Diesel and ah they 18 don't have any problem of us using the 19 vehicle ah if ah if or a need arises. 20 AUSTIN: Right. 21 CARSON: Ah if so long as your trained people would 22 be prepared to operate it for us. 23 AUSTIN: Yeah. 24 CARSON: Ah. 25 AUSTIN: Some potential for this err.
1761 CARSON: Well given what's going on in BC and some 2 other issues that have raised their head 3 here I'd I'd you know I'd I hope not but I 4 guess I just want to be prepared for all 5 eventualities. 6 AUSTIN: Yep let let me just ask you a couple of 7 questions are you you're there now are 8 you? 9 CARSON: Yep. 10 AUSTIN: Okay. 11 CARSON: Yep. 12 AUSTIN: Um you don't have anybody that's trained 13 that can can operate that that piece of 14 equipment? 15 CARSON: We never had anybody in when I know of. 16 AUSTIN: No um I guess down the road that might not 17 be a bad idea. 18 CARSON: Well yeah we're obviously going to have to 19 address that. 20 AUSTIN: Okay and then secondly I would say (u/i) 21 I'll I'll just let you know like what our 22 protocol is on it is that we would get it 23 ah for a rescue kind of a situation ah for 24 protection in the event that you are under 25 fire.
1771 CARSON: Yep. 2 AUSTIN: And those kind of things. 3 CARSON: Yep. 4 AUSTIN: And I would say ah in an emergency if 5 there was an emergency situation came up 6 that that sort of thing ah was required 7 then yeah we would ah provide ah ah driver 8 along with it. 9 CARSON: Right right. 10 AUSTIN: Um you know like certainly we we would 11 certainly assist where we could. 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 AUSTIN: Other than that um if it was for some 14 other purpose we would probably have and 15 this is only because you know just does 16 London Police want to get involved in 17 Ipperwash. 18 CARSON: Uh hum uh hum. 19 AUSTIN: Other other than sort of an emergency 20 situation probably not. 21 CARSON: Um hum well ah I guess that puts us in a 22 bit of a lurch I guess ah to be fairly 23 blunt about it because like you know right 24 now I don't know what all strategies I'll 25 have to look at. Ah you know if the only
1781 alternative I I have is is that ah you 2 know after we're under fire it puts me in 3 a spot where you know that's really not 4 not much help to me because by the time I 5 could ah mobilize that piece of equipment 6 after finding out we're in a jackpot it's 7 too late even to ask for it. 8 AUSTIN: Yeah. 9 CARSON: So you know it doesn't really do much for 10 a contingency point of view. 11 AUSTIN: Is there is there a potential for that to 12 occur? 13 CARSON: Ah well firearms have been displayed and 14 we've had flares thrown at our people 15 already. 16 AUSTIN: How many of them are there? 17 CARSON: Ah well we figure in the neighbourhood of 18 up up to possible forty (40) but were 19 probably dealing with a half a dozen who 20 are trouble. 21 AUSTIN: Jeez that much eh. 22 CARSON: Yeah yeah but like like you know quite 23 frankly I don't you know I have my doubts 24 whether were going to need ah ah piece of 25 equipment like that at all. The only
1791 thing it's just like you know our Tactical 2 Team you know you want available given 3 worse case scenarios particularly after 4 what's happened in BC. You know I don't 5 want I don't want a see some young officer 6 under fire and us not not be able to 7 rescue him. 8 AUSTIN: If um what what else can we do to assist 9 in that way like ah you wouldn't be trying 10 you wouldn't be thinking of calling it up 11 there and just having it sit there sort of 12 on standby would you? 13 CARSON: Well I guess that's that's the option is 14 ah you know ah as I think about it is ah 15 ah that that would probably be ah the best 16 bet after we do some assessments like we 17 still haven't ah got ah injunction by ah 18 the Ministry of Natural Resources and that 19 has to take place before we even think 20 about taking any action ah of trying to 21 move anybody. 22 AUSTIN: Yes. 23 CARSON: Ah but given ah ah that they may be able 24 to do that err err they do it get an 25 injunction ah if we're going to go in
1801 there and try to execute ah the order then 2 we have to really look seriously at ah ah 3 ah just a second. 4 (to background) oh okay. 5 Ah anyway you know if they do get the 6 injunction we look like we have to go in 7 there and and take any action and if the 8 risk level ah analysis you know is of such 9 that we you know need something like that 10 we're probably better say to have it up 11 here secreted somewhere out of the way 12 than if there was that type of a need then 13 it's only ten (10) minutes away. 14 AUSTIN: Yeah. 15 CARSON: You know would you agree? 16 AUSTIN: Yeah except that how many you know well I 17 agree that's the best but how many days is 18 that going to take you know that sort of 19 thing like round the clock and so forth. 20 CARSON: Well ah that that is a problem there is no 21 doubt about it. 22 AUSTIN: Yeah. 23 CARSON: There's no doubt about it. 24 AUSTIN: Um. 25 CARSON: But I guess you know if we if we get ready
1811 to to enter like like right now we have 2 nobody in the park but if we ah get an 3 injunction and ah are able to ah ah are 4 prepared to go into the park you know we 5 certainly have control over when when that 6 would take place. 7 AUSTIN: Could we I'm just just thinking about 8 something else here. I know you've got a 9 lot of problems right at the moment. 10 CARSON: (Laughing). 11 AUSTIN: I'm wondering, I'm just wondering if we 12 could develop something on an interim you 13 know like these injunctions while as 14 you're probably aware I don't do you think 15 it's going to be a fairly immediate thing 16 or? 17 CARSON: Well see that's that's being debated hotly 18 as we speak in ah the big smoke. 19 AUSTIN: Cause hardly ever they are you know they. 20 CARSON: Well there is the emergency type one they 21 can get within a day. 22 AUSTIN: Okay. 23 CARSON: Um and if there not preapred to do that 24 then I have to you know we have to really 25 re look at our whole situation here.
1821 AUSTIN: What you're doing yeah. 2 CARSON: Yeah yeah yeah. 3 AUSTIN: Um yeah how long does it take I wonder for 4 for one of your guys to be trained or or 5 maybe you've got somebody that's already 6 trained on that like well when we put ah 7 ah message out like through our own people 8 here. 9 CARSON: Yeah. 10 AUSTIN: Um there were three (3) or four (4) guys 11 that had already been in the Military and 12 and drove them and it didn't take em very 13 long to just be brought right up to date 14 on. 15 CARSON: Well ah we have a couple ex Military guys 16 a working for us and ah I'll ah I'll 17 search that out real quick for yah but 18 that's a good point. 19 AUSTIN: And if that was the case what we could do 20 like and I I would certainly make sure 21 that we facilitated it. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 AUSTIN: Ah is to get in touch with ah with GM. 24 Have one of our own drivers out there as 25 well.
1831 CARSON: Well I understand you guys doing some 2 training tomorrow. 3 AUSTIN: We're doing some training tomorrow. 4 CARSON: Okay okay. 5 AUSTIN: We could speed things up and get somebody 6 tuned right up on it like immediately. 7 CARSON: Okay let me ah search that out we'll ah 8 get back to yah. 9 AUSTIN: Ok, John. 10 CARSON: Okay. 11 AUSTIN: And I'll I'm only going to be out for 12 about an hour right now but then I'm I'm 13 gonna be I'll be back in. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 AUSTIN: Okay John. 16 CARSON: Thanks. 17 AUSTIN: Thanks. 18 CARSON: Appreciate it. 19 AUSTIN: Okay bye. 20 21 End of conversation. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Then if I could take you -- perhaps 25 that would be an appropriate time to take the lunch
1841 break? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this be 3 a good time? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It would be. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 6 That's fine. I'm ready for a break. Thank you very 7 much. We'll have a lunch break now. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 9 adjourned until 1:40. 10 11 --- Upon adjourning at 12:24 p.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 1:40 p.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 15 resumed. Please be seated. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, 17 Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 19 afternoon. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 22 Q: Just before lunch, Deputy Carson, we 23 were talking -- we heard the -- your telephone call with 24 Deputy Chief Austin that's reported at the bottom of page 25 35 and the top of page 36 of the scribe notes.
1851 And that telephone call is captured in 2 three (3) lines; is that correct? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And the note is simply that: 5 "He stated that they really don't want 6 to crew vehicle only in an emergency." 7 And was that the essence of the message 8 you got from London Police Department? 9 A: Well, I would suggest that's the 10 essence of the message that I dictated to the scribe to 11 capture. I was trying to emphasize to the Deputy Chief 12 of London that we wanted to be prepared for all 13 eventualities and we're trying to do some contingency 14 planning and looking for their support. 15 But it was clear when it required them to 16 provide the resources to assist us on a twenty-four (24) 17 hour basis, it was going to be problematic. 18 Q: They -- what I took from him in the 19 call is that they use the light armoured vehicle simply 20 for rescue missions if someone were to be under fire? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And what was the purpose at this time 23 that you wanted a light armoured vehicle? 24 A: Well, not -- not so -- not so 25 dissimilar, quite frankly, in the event that there was a
1861 need for a rescue or we came under fire, that we just 2 wanted to have that kind of equipment available for the 3 worse case scenario. 4 The reality of it was we didn't expect to 5 have to use it. I didn't want to have the resource, you 6 know, hours and miles away should that need come to play. 7 Q: And if I could take you back to Tab 8 11 for a moment in the book of transcripts of telephone 9 calls, and the telephone call that you had with 10 Superintendent Parkin, and in particular, the reference 11 at the bottom of page 66 over onto page 67 of the 12 numbered transcript with respect to the taping of the 13 telephone calls. 14 Do you see the reference at the bottom: 15 "Only the command trailer -- ah, we're 16 probably going to need a line at some 17 point in time where we can talk to 18 you." 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you indicate: 21 "I can go into the Detachment and call 22 you and it won't be taped." 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And then down a little farther it 25 says:
1871 "Down the road it may become an issue, 2 yep, yep, I can appreciate that." 3 Firstly, why did other -- what was your 4 understanding of why Superintendent Parkin wanted an 5 unrecorded telephone line? 6 A: Well, first of all I -- I think it's 7 important that to recognize it, he would be very 8 surprised that a line was being recorded. This 9 particular conversation, as all my conversations were, 10 were administrative in nature as opposed to someone 11 calling in reporting an occurrence. 12 So he would have not ever experienced a 13 recorded line in any of our normal business. So for 14 calls to be taped was out of the ordinary and certainly 15 not expected by him or any other callers who would be 16 calling in. 17 And I suspect that at some point in time, 18 we may require some very frank and open discussion 19 dialogue, maybe differences of opinion that maybe he 20 wouldn't want everyone to necessarily have -- be able to 21 hear that as tapes are reviewed. 22 Q: Well, he then says: 23 "Down the road it may become an issue." 24 And you say: 25 "Yep, yep I can appreciate that."
1881 What did you appreciate? What were you 2 responding to, I can appreciate that? 3 A: Well, just when we get into these 4 kind of discussions it gives other people an opportunity 5 to second guess your decision who certainly weren't there 6 at the moment involved in those discussions. 7 Q: And I note in a number of these 8 calls, you indicate to people that the lines are being 9 recorded? 10 A: Correct. Because -- and again 11 because it is very -- well, it's -- we normally don't and 12 we still don't tape that kind of phone traffic that the 13 people calling in would expect that their lines not be 14 recorded. 15 Or they would have no expectation of being 16 recorded, put it that way. 17 Q: And tell us again why lines are 18 recorded for operational purposes? 19 A: Yes. The only -- the only reason we 20 record lines, are they are 911 or 800 calls that come 21 into our communication centres in regards to emergency 22 calls for service. That's the only business that we 23 actually tape record. 24 And this particular trailer was set up as 25 a communication trailer. So that's why, apparently,
1891 automatically the lines were connected to the recording 2 equipment. But that -- that's the only business we do 3 that we have taped conversations. 4 And what happens there is, A) we use those 5 tapes for court purposes on occasion or it also has the 6 ability in the comm. centres to replay tape if we need 7 information to provide to responding officers that was 8 difficult to capture when the call was coming in, because 9 at times people obviously panic when they're reporting a 10 serious incident. 11 Q: So the normal course of events is to 12 have unrecorded calls except for as you say, the 911 13 calls. 14 A: Only in our communication centre. 15 Q: In the communication centre. 16 A: Yeah. None of our other business 17 across the organization is taped at all. 18 Q: Now at the -- on September 5th -- at 19 this time on September 5th, why did you not try to expand 20 your containment to include the Army Camp? 21 A: Well, I didn't really feel, at that 22 point in time, we had any right to restrict access to the 23 Army Camp. 24 Q: And it was because -- so what you 25 wanted to do was simply identify people who went into and
1901 out of the Army Camp? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And you felt you had no right -- 4 legal right to restrict entry into the Army Camp? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And did you have any discussions with 7 the Federal Government or consider in Ottawa regarding 8 the Army Camp on September the 5th? 9 A: Me personally? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: No. 12 Q: And did you -- was it part of the 13 plan to talk to the Federal Government about the Army 14 Camp? 15 A: No. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And why didn't someone call the 20 Federal Government with respect to the Army Camp and on 21 September 4th, September 5th? 22 A: As I understand it, there were 23 negotiations ongoing between Kettle Point Band and the 24 Federal Government in regards to return of CFB Ipperwash. 25 The issue we were dealing with was the
1911 Provincial Park, which, in my view, was a -- a distinctly 2 separate issue. 3 Q: And was there any thought given -- 4 assuming for the moment, and this is a hypothetical, but 5 assuming for the moment the -- the Federal Government had 6 been asked if they considered people going onto the Army 7 Camp trespassers, and that they were trespassing, would 8 you have been able to then stop people going on to the 9 Army Camp? 10 A: I would have had to evaluate that at 11 the time, but we had made our position on that issue very 12 clear with the Military two (2) years earlier. 13 Q: And that was if the Military wanted 14 you to deal with trespassers, they had to get an 15 injunction? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: Or remove them themselves to outside 18 the Army Camp? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: Then if I could ask another question 21 before we go on, about the scribe notes. The scribe 22 notes, you've told us yesterday are, in effect, the notes 23 -- the Incident Commander's notes to assist the Incident 24 Commander so he does not or she does not have to make 25 notes as they go along.
1921 Is that correct? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And what else are the scribe notes 4 used for? 5 A: Well, it may be necessary for the 6 Incident Commander to ask the scribe to refer back in the 7 notes to some activity or tasking or information received 8 in the time previous to that moment that's occurred 9 during the incident. 10 It's also quite possible and would occur 11 that those notes would make up the -- the notes for the 12 commander in the event there were criminal charges laid, 13 and some of the grounds for direction. Say, for 14 instance, if it was a barricaded gun man and there was 15 authority provided to allow a tactical team to make a 16 forced entry into a residence for a rescue, as -- for 17 example, that you would have the documentation that 18 explains the justification for your actions. 19 Q: And just as if you were keeping your 20 own notes, you would put those types of things in your 21 own notes? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And back in 1995, how long were the 24 scribe notes of an incident expected to be kept, the 25 typed scribe notes?
1931 A: Well, normally what happens is the -- 2 the scribe notes are turned over to the Incident 3 Commander and they retain control of them. 4 Q: For how long? 5 A: Well, it becomes part of their notes 6 for -- for the most part. I -- I'm assuming that most 7 incident commanders would file them in there with the 8 rest of their notes and they keep them throughout their 9 career. 10 Q: Okay. And what about the handwritten 11 notes? Back in 1995, what was the procedure that would 12 normally take place with the handwritten notes? 13 A: Well, back in 1995 we didn't have the 14 proliferation of -- or we were just getting into 15 computers. So my experience was, on most of the calls I 16 had been on prior to '95 we lived with handwritten notes. 17 We didn't get typewritten notes. 18 Q: And -- 19 A: So they were done -- they were done 20 by hand on sheets of -- pads of paper, foolscap, given to 21 the incident commander when they left and that -- that 22 was it. They were never transcribed into typed form. 23 Q: And so was this the first incident 24 that you received typed notes? 25 A: Correct - that I recall, anyway.
1941 Q: And the handwritten notes, were you 2 provided with the handwritten notes at the same time as 3 you were provided with the typewritten notes? 4 A: No, I never did receive a copy of the 5 handwritten notes ever, for this incident. 6 Q: Now, I'd like to go back again to 7 page 35, the discussion with Detective Sergeant Wright 8 when he came back from the Park. 9 That's at page 35, 13:54 hours. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I would like to take you to page 12 432 of the handwritten notes, Exhibit P-427. 13 A: Yes. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, I 18 missed that. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At page 432. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 432. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And the handwritten note starts; met 24 with Burke, I take it that was transcribed into Bert. 25 A: Yes, that should have been Bert.
1951 Q: And then: 2 "MW is reported to have said very 3 disorganized, very uncomfortable. 4 Advised they are happy to have burial 5 ground. Made it clear they are 6 trespassing and we are seeking an 7 injunction. Roadblocks aren't going 8 anywhere." 9 And I note that the reference "Advised 10 they're happy to have burial ground," does not appear in 11 the note at page 35 of the scribe notes. And do you 12 recall Mr. Mark -- Staff Sergeant Mark Wright making the 13 statement "Advised they are happy to have burial ground." 14 A: I -- I don't know what the context 15 of that was. 16 Q: But do you have any recollection of 17 that? 18 A: No. If it wasn't in the note I 19 couldn't recall. 20 Q: If -- the only thing you recall is 21 what's in this note? 22 A: Yeah, that's -- I have no 23 recollection of that discussion. 24 Q: Okay. And then at the bottom of the 25 page of page 432 and over to 433, there's again a note
1961 you're still in a discussion with Mark Wright. 2 "JC, helicopter here shortly. No 3 bigger things are going to come. Make 4 plans from there. Inter-Ministry has 5 to make up mind. Keep it peaceful." 6 And that does not appear to have made it 7 in the notes. And do you have any recollection of this 8 part of the discussion today? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: And then it goes on page 433: 11 "Mark Wright advised them we aren't 12 going anywhere. Said he wants blocks 13 taken down, told absolutely not. TAC 14 will easily to get in Park canteen 15 area." 16 Then there's a note: 17 "JC, got to get over bridge. MW, take 18 general store [something] around." 19 And do you know what that -- can you -- do 20 you see the word after "general store"? Do you know what 21 that says? 22 A: I -- I agree with you. It looks like 23 it's "Park around." 24 Q: Park around? 25 A: Looks like an incomplete sentence.
1971 Q: And do you have any recollection of 2 this conversation today? 3 A: No, not at all. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Would you agree with me, Deputy 8 Commissioner, that "advised they're happy to have burial 9 ground" was that Mr. -- Detective Sergeant Wright had 10 been advised by the occupiers that they were advised to 11 have the burial ground in the Park back? 12 A: That would be my best guess. 13 Q: That's your best guess? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Then you then tasked -- well, before 16 I forget -- at Book 2, Tab 50, that's one -- the black 17 book over in your immediate left-hand side. Right there. 18 At Tab 50 there's Inquiry Document 1001101. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that's an e-mail from 21 Superintendent Parkin to Nancy Mansell with a carbon copy 22 to Phil Duffield and Ron Fox. It's dated September 5, 23 1995 at 12:03. And prior to these Proceedings had you 24 seen that e-mail before? 25 A: I may have seen it in a review of the
1981 documents for -- for this process. 2 Q: And the -- this note -- the e-mail 3 from Superintendent Parkin to Nancy Mansell, Nancy 4 Mansell was in the office that, I think you told us 5 before, that prepared the media -- the briefing notes? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And this is to bring -- update her on 8 what's transpiring as of noon on September 5th? 9 A: That's -- that's to provide the -- 10 yes, the -- the information for an updated briefing note. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Pardon me? It's an updated briefing 15 note? 16 A: That's -- that's the information for 17 a briefing note to be updated. 18 Q: And is the information in this note 19 accurate as of twelve o'clock on September 5th? 20 A: Yes, it appears to be the basis of 21 the discussion Superintendent Parkin and I had had an 22 hour or so previous. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. Perhaps we 24 could mark that the next exhibit? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-429, your Honour.
1991 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-429: Document Number 1001101 2 September 05/95 12:03 E-mail 3 to Nancy Mansell from Anthony 4 Parkin Re: Ipperwash 5 Provincial Park. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Then at 14:07 you ask -- on page 36, 9 Mark Wright if he could find anyone with armoured vehicle 10 experience. Is that correct? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And then you have a discussion with 13 Sergeant Seltzer with respect to the visit to the Park? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And there's a note that he states -- 16 Sergeant Seltzer states that we shouldn't do anything til 17 we know what's involved. 18 And that's a -- have I read that 19 correctly; was that Sergeant Seltzer who said that? 20 A: I believe so, yes. 21 Q: Then Detective Sergeant Wright 22 advises you that Rob Shaw of the Windsor Casino Unit has 23 armoured car experience? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then you advise that the status
2001 of the blockade committee is that they're still meeting, 2 and where did you get that information from or can you 3 recall today? 4 A: I have no idea, sir. 5 Q: Okay. At 14:13, you were advised 6 that the chopper is leaving Sudbury and it hoped -- it 7 was hoped that it would be there within two (2) or three 8 (3) hours? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Then at the bottom -- at the next 11 entry: 12 "Sergeant Korosec states that marine 13 patrols were being conducted. Also 14 states that Rob Shaw is a tank 15 commander." 16 And that's with respect to the light 17 armoured vehicle? 18 A: Yes, Shaw is a member of the militia. 19 Q: Okay. Then you asked -- you 20 instructed Stan Korosec to have Rob Shaw call Phil Brown 21 in London. I take it he was a OPP officer, Phil Brown? 22 A: Correct, he was a constable serving 23 London Detachment. 24 Q: Then Cliff Logan at GM Diesel in 25 London regarding training with the London PD tomorrow.
2011 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the -- the next item is at 14:17 3 hours. 4 "Sergeant Seltzer calling Sergeant 5 Sharp to arrange for Sergeant Eve to 6 attend command post tomorrow." 7 And Sergeant Eve was going to be one (1) 8 of the negotiators? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And then at 14:21, according to the 11 Tab 15, the transcript of a telephone call; you had a 12 telephone call with Tom Coffee? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: And Tom Coffee is with GM Diesel? 15 A: Correct. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 20 21 John CARSON and Tom COFFEE 22 23 September 5, 1995 24 TIME: 14:21:22 hours 25 Track 3.wav
2021 2 MALE: Command Post HUNTLEY. 3 COFFEE: Ah good afternoon is ah I'm not sure is 4 his title ah John CARSON. 5 MALE: Yeah can I tell him who's calling? 6 COFFEE: Yes General Motors in London. 7 MALE: Okay one moment please. 8 CARSON: John CARSON. 9 COFFEE: (cough) excuse me. John it's Tom COFFEE 10 um I'm the security manager for General 11 Motors Diesel Division London Ontario. 12 CARSON: Yes Tom. 13 COFFEE: And I'm I'm not quite sure on the 14 authenticity of the call but ah I 15 understand your name was given to me that 16 you had called in ah with a request of one 17 (1) of our vehicles. 18 CARSON: Yes I spoke to ah Cliff LOGAN. 19 COFFEE: You spoke to Cliff LOGAN. 20 CARSON: Yep. 21 COFFEE: Okay and um what um what exactly what 22 exactly is the the need for the vehicle ah 23 like. 24 CARSON: Okay at this point we got a ah ah a native 25 ah take a bunch of natives have taken over
2031 ah Ipperwash Provincial Park. 2 COFFEE: Yes. 3 CARSON: And ah there has been some ah reason to 4 believe there is weapons involved. 5 COFFEE: I see. 6 CARSON: And at this point we don't have a need but 7 but what we perceive is the potential for 8 ah weapons to be involved and were just 9 looking at options ah. 10 COFFEE: Okay. 11 CARSON: In the event of a need for a rescue. 12 COFFEE: John let me let me tell you the procedure 13 that ah is in place um first of all ah we 14 we do have a an agreement with the LPD. 15 CARSON: Uh huh. 16 COFFEE: Uh and they have a special squad ah of 17 people that have been trained and ah are 18 familiar with the operation of our 19 vehicle. 20 CARSON: Yep. 21 COFFEE: And ah the process would be that if if 22 there's if there's some way that ah they 23 would if you've been talking to them if 24 there is some way that they would want to 25 be involved and and um and your needs and
2041 ah they requested a vehicle of us ah then 2 ah we maybe in a position to release it to 3 them. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 COFFEE: But to ah you know I'm not in a position 6 to, we're not here in a position to 7 release the vehicle ah to the OPP who have 8 not been trained like I can't supply you 9 with. 10 CARSON: Okay. 11 COFFEE: A crew of people. 12 CARSON: Kay kay, can I can I just tell you 13 something here. 14 COFFEE: Yes, sir. 15 CARSON: Okay ah I spoke with ah the Deputy Chief 16 ah. 17 COFFEE: (U/I) AUSTIN. 18 CARSON: Yeah and we talked about that and in an 19 emergency they would supply drivers if it 20 was a dire emergency although they are not 21 they don't have a warm fuzzy feeling about 22 doing that. 23 COFFEE: Yeah. 24 CARSON: Okay but what I have done since I talked 25 to him is I have ah did a search of some
2051 of our people and I have a guy that works 2 ah for us who who is a tank commander in 3 the reserves. 4 COFFEE: Yes. 5 CARSON: And ah has had I don't know how many hours 6 training on those vehicles. 7 COFFEE: On our particular vehicles. 8 CARSON: Yes. 9 COFFEE: Okay. 10 CARSON: And ah I understand that you guys are 11 doing training tomorrow with London PD. 12 COFFEE: That could be I'm not, I'm not involved in 13 the training department so. 14 CARSON: And and ah we have anoth3er fellow who 15 just joined us ah within the last twelve 16 (12) months who was in the ah ah infantry 17 out of Petawawa who it is my understanding 18 he too had been trained on similar 19 vehicles. 20 COFFEE: Yes. 21 CARSON: You you call them ah our guys call them 22 Bison's is (u/i). 23 COFFEE: Bison's are the Canadian vehicle yes. 24 CARSON: Okay anyway ah ah what what I would like 25 to ah propose is that these two (2)
2061 members ah ah be sent to your place for 2 for training so that ah they they could 3 operate it we wouldn't have to involve 4 London PD. 5 COFFEE: Yes. 6 CARSON: Would would that ah solve the problem. 7 COFFEE: Well I guess all is I can tell you John is 8 that it would have to be ah I think what 9 would have to be done here is that there 10 would have to be some agreement ah with 11 with the OPP and General Motors Diesel 12 Division to come to come to some agreement 13 as to allow to allow that to happen and 14 unfortunately I don't know if the 15 bureaucracy would deal with that in a in a 16 manner as as quickly as you need it too. 17 CARSON: Well I I guess that's the question if 18 you're telling me that we can't do this 19 then we may as well you know ah just you 20 know cut this now and I'll have to go to 21 the Military to see if they can supply us 22 because like really I'm looking at 23 contingency planning and you know I'll do 24 everything I can to make this thing work 25 and if I have to supply a couple of guys
2071 for a couple days or as long as the 2 training is required I don't have any 3 problem with that. 4 COFFEE: Yeah. 5 CARSON: But but really you know when it comes in 6 the red tape stuff like you know. 7 COFFEE: Yeah. 8 CARSON: I'm sitting here with fifty (50) guys 9 running all over here. 10 COFFEE: I understand. 11 CARSON: And ah you know not not trying to be short 12 with you by the same token you know if we 13 can't make it work I just have to accept 14 that. 15 COFFEE: Okay. 16 CARSON: And look at something else. 17 COFFEE: Let me ah let me let me make two 18 suggestions here. 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 COFFEE: First of all um I'm going to ah contact ah 21 the ah the m (i/u) the person who is who 22 can make that decision. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 COFFEE: And find out what ah what position they 25 are would want to be in.
2081 CARSON: Right. 2 COFFEE: And second to that and and verifying that 3 I would call I"ll call you right back and 4 confirm that (u/i). 5 CARSON: That would be appreciate. 6 COFFEE: Ah second to that is that um obviously if 7 the answer is that we can't do that in 8 such a short notice. 9 CARSON: Yep. 10 COFFEE: Then the LPD is your next best bet and if 11 that's a conflict then I guess the 12 Military is the way to go. 13 CARSON: Yeah well I mean we just go to you know to 14 alternate plans. 15 COFFEE: Okay. 16 CARSON: And we don't take that personal we 17 understand we had no protocols setup and 18 ah you know just given some situation. 19 COFFEE: Sure. 20 CARSON: And as you know in BC there has been some 21 problems and you know we don't know if we 22 have people who are gonna to try and you 23 know duplicate what's happened elsewhere 24 for the 25 COFFEE: Okay.
2091 CARSON: for the media so (u/i). 2 COFFEE: John I will try and get an answer back to 3 you either way asap. 4 CARSON: I would certainly appreciate it Tom. 5 COFFEE: And what is your position there? 6 CARSON: I'm ah Inspector Incident Commander here. 7 COFFEE: Inspector. 8 CARSON: Yep. 9 COFFEE: Okay. 10 CARSON: I'm I'm in charge of all the operations of 11 this incident. 12 COFFEE: Well you guys certainly got your hands 13 full now haven't you? 14 CARSON: We do we do we do. Ah if you have any 15 other if if ah if ah if there are any 16 protocols that have to be signed reviewed 17 and discussed ah our Chief Superintendent 18 ah is ah ah has an office in downtown 19 London. I can make arrangements through 20 that office to have somebody work out the 21 the bureaucratic side of it. 22 MALE: (laughs). 23 COFFEE: What would his name be? 24 CARSON: It's Chief Superintendent Chris COLES and 25 ah him or Superintendent PARKIN both work
2101 out of that ah office. 2 COFFEE: Okay. 3 CARSON: And ah I'll be talking a matter a fact to 4 Superintendent PARKIN probably as soon as 5 I hang up this call. 6 COFFEE: Okay. 7 CARSON: And ah just to let him know what what's 8 developing in that way. 9 COFFEE: Okay. 10 CARSON: And and if we can expedite something that 11 way fine if we can't well that's okay. 12 COFFEE: And you say we got some training going on 13 do we? 14 CARSON: Well LPD advises that ah that their guy 15 their ERT people will be training ah 16 tomorrow for their refresher training. 17 COFFEE: Okay, yes. 18 CARSON: So. 19 COFFEE: All right John. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 COFFEE: I will be back to you asap. 22 CARSON: Appreciate that very much. 23 COFFEE: Bye. 24 CARSON: Thank you. 25
2111 End of conversation. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Then there's a note at 15:35: 5 "Inspector Carson contacted 6 Superintendent Parkin to update him -- 7 updated on tanks. Press release by the 8 Town of Bosanquet and contact with the 9 Natives." 10 And I note we don't have a transcript for 11 this call nor a record of this call. Do you recall where 12 you made this call from, Deputy Carson? 13 A: I really can't tell you off the top 14 of my head. At best if it's not recorded I -- I may have 15 gone into the Detachment for some reason and made it 16 while I was in there. 17 Q: And the -- can you recall what you're 18 reporting on, updated on tanks? I take it that's the 19 light armoured vehicles and your discussions with General 20 Motors? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And Mr. Austin? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And contact with the Natives? 25 A: Yes. That's the update from the
2121 information that just came back from the visit with Bert 2 Manning. 3 Q: By Detective Sergeant Wright and Brad 4 Seltzer? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: Now there's in Tab 15, there's a 7 couple of -- at page 111, 112, 113 and 114, I take it at 8 14:38 hours, and I don't have a wave file for this, Tom 9 Coffee called you back and asked you to call him? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And at 14:42:54 hours, you call Mr. 12 Coffee and he wasn't there and you left a message? 13 That's on page 113 and 114. 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And then at -- if I could take you to 16 Tab 16 in that book at 14:47:47 hours, you called Ron 17 Fox? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And why did you call Ron Fox at this 20 point in time? 21 A: I would suspect it was to get his 22 status of the -- the meeting around the injunction. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I'm just going to 24 play, Commissioner, the conversation. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine.
2131 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 RF: Ron Fox. 4 JC: Hi Ronald, John here. 5 RF: How are you? 6 JC: Not bad! 7 RF: (laughs) I was just dialing your phone 8 number! 9 JC: Ha ha ha ha ha ha. That's timing eh? Sorry 10 I've just been inundated with calls and 11 things. 12 RF: No, I can well imagine. I don't want to 13 hold you up 14 JC: (simultaneous) No, no problem! 15 RF: ...I just want to let you know what went 16 on at this Inter-ministerial Committee on 17 Aboriginal Issues this morning. 18 JC: Okay. 19 RF: First of all the Premier's Office had 20 representation there in the form of one 21 Debra Hutton. 22 JC: Okay. 23 RF: And she's quite an attractive lady. 24 JC: Uh huh. 25 RF: Very much powered (?). And ah basically
2141 the Premier has made it clear to her his 2 position is there'll be no different 3 treatment of people in this situation. In 4 other words native as opposed to non- 5 native. 6 JC: Okay. 7 RF: And the bottom line is, wants them out and 8 you know, was asking well what would the 9 police do in a situation where there 10 wasn't natives. I said well, I mean, you 11 can't compare apples and oranges. 12 JC: Right. 13 RF: I said, you know I come to your house and 14 I plunk myself down and you ask me to 15 leave and I don't. And you call for police 16 intervention. Chances are I don't have 17 Colour of Right for being there. 18 JC: Right. 19 RF: Whether its actual or perceived. And I 20 said it's a little bit different here. 21 We're talking about land claims and 22 treaties. Well no! So I mean this is - its 23 all - I mean its our property. And I said 24 yes. By virtue of letters patent (?) that 25 were produced in 1929. But I said I mean
2151 these people refer to treaties that go 2 back to pre-Confederation days. So I said 3 I'm not suggesting for a minute that the 4 course of action is a course of non- 5 action- 6 JC: Just - just - just - just a second. Is 7 that thing playing out there when I'm 8 talking here? Can you hear it on the 9 speakers? (Answer is inaudible) .Cause I 10 thought I could hear an echo coming back 11 on this [inaudible]. ...coming over. Okay. 12 Okay. I'm sorry, just some things going on 13 here. 14 RF: No problem. Don't want to be broadcast! 15 (Laughs) 16 JC: Ha ha ha ha ha - don't sweat it. Anyway, 17 I'm sorry. 18 RF: So the bottom line is - I said you know 19 I'm not suggesting a course of non-action 20 but I said my theory has always been make 21 hay slowly. 22 JC: Right. 23 RF: And I said, what has to be done - I mean 24 there's a whole whack of real steps that 25 are in place now and I know are being
2161 done. 2 JC: Right. 3 RF: MNR by the way, kind of were against 4 getting an enjoining order. 5 JC: Oh really! 6 RF: Yeah. Yeah. Preferring basically to pass 7 it over and say well, you know I mean 8 there's criminal code offenses of mischief 9 you know if you're lawful enjoinder, or 10 use of property, trespass. So I very 11 carefully explained to them that you know, 12 under the trespass to property an officer 13 could go serve process, escort somebody to 14 the gate, and then they come back in. And 15 we'll go on forever this way. And I 16 explained the same with the criminal code 17 and the provisions of the Bail Reform Act 18 and how release procedures work. And I 19 said quite clearly this is a civil dispute 20 and it has to be adjudicated in a court of 21 law, and the police given sufficient 22 authority to act. 23 JC: Right. 24 RF: So they finally agreed, the consensus is 25 they'll get an enjoining order. And the
2171 MNR will provide a large part of the 2 affidavit. But they wondered who they 3 might speak to if they needed some 4 perspective from the police. And I 5 suggested yourself. 6 JC: Mmmmhmm. 7 RF: And I confirmed by - when I say confirmed 8 I was talking to Coles just to let him 9 know what went on here after I spoke to 10 you earlier. And he's quite content that 11 you be that contact. 12 JC: Okay. Yeah. That's no problem. 13 RF: So. In a nutshell what came up was about 14 the service of this notice last night. 15 JC: Yes. 16 RF: And these people, you know I mean they 17 just get right in the minutia and I said 18 well - I mean these people have been told, 19 I'm sure that you're trespassing. 20 JC: Yip. Yip. 21 RF: And I said whether they actually took the 22 paper that doesn't matter. I'm sure 23 whoever the officers were, that did it, 24 that's been well noted. 25 JC: Yup. And the thing is, on the Trespass to
2181 Property Act, its up to the trespasser to 2 get permission to be on property, not vice 3 versa anyway. 4 RF: That's right. 5 JC: But would we have reinforced that today 6 with meetings anyhow? 7 RF: Mmmhmmm. 8 JC: With -we have met with Bert Manning whose 9 you know - allegedly one of the, you know, 10 people in the know there, or leaders if 11 you would. 12 RF: Yeah. 13 JC: And ah, he - he asked that our roadblocks 14 be taken down and we said that's not going 15 to happen. And ah, you know, that they are 16 trespassers and that as far as we're 17 concerned they are breaking the law and we 18 will continue to proceed in that 19 direction. 20 RF: Mmmhmm. Yeah, we'll take action that may 21 be appropriate. 22 JC: That's right, that's right. That's right. 23 RF: What are their demands? 24 JC: They have none. 25 RF: They have none.
2191 JC: No. No. Its their - terminology - burial 2 grounds. 3 RF: Mmhmm. 4 JC: Yeah. 5 RF: Okay. 6 JC: So there are no demands other than its 7 their property and for us to stay the hell 8 off. 9 RF: Mmhmmm. 10 JC: Yeah. 11 RF: Okay. Okay. Now the other thing that come 12 up at the meeting. One of the MNR chaps - 13 it wasn't Sturdy. It was the other guy - 14 Ron - 15 JC: Baldwin. 16 RF: Yeah. 17 JC: Yes. 18 RF: And he'd said that he had just got 19 information that they meaning these 20 insurgents had an OPP car. And I said no I 21 very much doubt that. 22 JC: (laughs) 23 RF: Well, you know. Why can't they be charged 24 with mischief. They're cutting our trees 25 down and they're gonna - and I said I
2201 understand they are. But I said one has to 2 be identified as the perpetrator of a 3 criminal offence. 4 JC: Yup. 5 RF: And I said I'm sure the police are working 6 away at that and they'll do what they can. 7 JC: We have three people - we have warrants 8 for their arrest. Roderick George, Stewart 9 George, David George - charged with ah, 10 each with one count of mischief. David 11 Abraham George is charged with one count 12 possession of weapon, namely a flare,... 13 RF: Mmmhmm. 14 JC: ...for the purpose dangerous to the 15 public. And he's also charged with one 16 count of assault police. 17 RF: Mmmhmm. 18 JC: Okay so we have those warrants. 19 [Background noise] 20 RF: Right. 21 JC: And there's a press release gonna go out 22 shortly to that respect. 23 RF: Okay. Yeah. 24 JC: That's right? 25 RF: Yeah. But again, you've got them
2211 identified... 2 JC: Yup. 3 RF: ...Got warrants for them. 4 JC: That's right. 5 RF: ...Now it's a matter of affecting arrest. 6 JC: That's right. That's right. 7 RF: Now how I prefix my remarks in terms of 8 the little briefing to them... 9 JC: Yes. 10 RF: ...is that I said that I'm told there's 11 between thirty-five and forty people 12 there. 13 JC: Right. 14 RF: And I said that means men, women and 15 children. 16 JC: That's right! 17 RF: So I thought I wouldn't have to explain 18 anymore. 19 JC: Yes. 20 RF: Well, I'll tell ya, this whole fuckin' 21 group is on some sort of testosteran or 22 testosterone high. Then I finally had to 23 get right out and say look. I mean here's 24 the strategy those folk will employ. The 25 women and children will be at the
2221 forefront. 2 JC: That's right. 3 RF: The police are going to be faced with. 4 JC: That's right. 5 RF: And I said you got to understand that the 6 provincial police will never shirk their 7 responsibility. But read - their hands 8 will get dirty - read - so will the 9 government's. 10 JC: That's right. 11 RF: And as long as we're prepared for that. 12 JC: That's right. But I doubt if they are. Oh, 13 I - you know I doubt if - 14 RF: This - listen - this - 15 JC: (interrupting) I mean if we're going to do 16 that over a trespassing?! 17 RF: That's exactly right! And I said you know 18 you just can't do that! 19 JC: That' right. I mean if we're going to do 20 that - I - we have to have the force of 21 the law behind us to provide some 22 recognition by a court in this land. 23 RF: Mmmhmm. And let's not lose sight of the 24 fact that this is a civil matter! 25 JC: That's right. That's right!
2231 RF: It's ?? there's no element of criminality 2 here yet. I'm sure with those clowns 3 you've got charged, they have done 4 something overt... 5 JC: Yeah. 6 RF: ...that amounts to a criminal offense. 7 JC: That's right. 8 RF: And they will be arrested.JC: Yup. 9 RF: Well now, will they be letting people in? 10 I said no! The park is cordoned off. But I 11 said, here's the chunk of reality. 12 (Laughs) It's a big park! (Laughs) Well, 13 and I said, like knowing the area as well 14 as I do, I said I could get into that park 15 and the police would never know it! 16 JC: That's right. Well, they can come in 17 through the military base that we don't 18 have control over. 19 RF: Yes. 20 JC: So they can drive all through the military 21 base and come on through a fence that we 22 have no access to. 23 RF: Yeah. 24 JC: At this time. 25 RF: That's right. So I mean that's the -
2241 that's the other aspect. But I mean, as 2 far as people showing up. 3 JC: Yup. 4 RF: Well then their concern was - it was like 5 you know - there may be warriors show up - 6 that was one guy from MNR. 7 JC: Yeah. 8 RF: And I said, well that's a possibility. I 9 said there's only so many Stoney Pointers 10 in life. 11 JC: That's right. 12 RF: I think its naŠve to presume that there's 13 as many Stoney Pointers as there are 14 people there now. 15 JC: Right. 16 RF: And I said the police information is well 17 substantiated that people from other 18 territories are there. 19 JC: Right. 20 RF: So they understand that. 21 JC: Okay. 22 RF: But there's no negotiating with these 23 people I guess ?? ? 24 JC: Well, we've talked to them there. They 25 said they'll talk to us tomorrow at noon.
2251 Again. And they're meeting with their 2 elders tonight to - to discuss their 3 strategy. I think they're pretty 4 disorganized at this point still. 5 RF: Yeah. 6 JC: And I think they're pretty nervous. 7 RF: Yeah. 8 JC: Cause they don't know what we're going to 9 do. 10 RF: Okay. What the other thing that Baldwin 11 brought up was it was his information that 12 the group had dwindled down to seven 13 people now. 14 JC: Well - there was that many people seen 15 this morning 16 RF: Mmmhmm 17 JC: ...From one point. But the problem is, 18 there's seven there now. And you walk in 19 and deal with them and you got twenty more 20 coming wheeling up the road behind them. 21 RF: Well particularly when there's unlimited 22 access between the military base and the 23 park. 24 JC: Well that's our problem! We don't have 25 control of those access points yet.
2261 RF: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean how does one do 2 that being as the Park - you know the 3 boundary is integral with the Base? 4 JC: That's right! That's exactly right. 5 RF: You know, unless you take over the 6 base...JC:Yeah. 7 RF: ...If you do that you might as well take 8 over the Park! (laughs) 9 JC: Well that's right. 10 RF: Catch twenty-two. 11 JC: Well, and I'm hesitant to get too excited 12 about moving on the Park until we have 13 some court injunction like a ... 14 RF: That's right. 15 JC: ...For the mere trespassing is - is pretty 16 flimsy grounds. 17 RF: Mmmhmm. 18 JC: You know, to go start arresting people. 19 RF: Yeah. 20 JC: You know, its not going to look very good 21 on Canada AM I'll tell ya. 22 RF: Yup. Well, and that's the whole point. 23 JC: Yeah, yeah. Okay. 24 RF: Well, I just wanted to get just a bit of a 25 feel for it.
2271 JC: No, you're right on the money Ron. As 2 usual. 3 RF: Let me assure you that I pushed them and 4 they are going to apply for this enjoining 5 order. 6 JC: Okay. 7 RF: And it sounds like they'll do the emergent 8 form. 9 JC: Good. Good. Okay, well we'll hold the 10 line. I got another line ringing here. 11 RF: Take care John. 12 JC: Appreciate it Ron. 13 RF: See you later. 14 JC: Thank you much. 15 RF: Bye. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: Then the conversation -- in the 19 conversation with Mr. Fox, he refers to at one (1) point 20 and this is on page 116: 21 "I said, you know, I mean I come to 22 your house and I plunk myself down and 23 you ask me leave and I don't and you 24 call for police intervention. Chances 25 are I don't have colour of right for
2281 being there." 2 And is what your understanding of colour 3 of right? What -- that he referred to here? 4 A: Well the colour of right is whether a 5 person believes they have the legal right or access or 6 claim to some property. What -- the analogy he's drawing 7 here is when a person plunks himself, as he says on your 8 property, that person does that without having any belief 9 that they have any ownership of that property or a right 10 to that property. 11 And so the person has a right to request 12 the police to remove them. 13 Q: And the issue that he's raised here, 14 because of the Treaties, as he puts it, the pre- 15 Confederation Treaties that are being referred to, there 16 was a concern, at least he expressed, with respect to 17 colour of right? 18 A: Yes, I think he was articulating the 19 fact that he -- he had an understanding that there may be 20 more than meets the eye, you know, it's -- more than the 21 obvious. 22 Q: And that was your concern was it not 23 about the army camp back in 1993? 24 A: Yes. And clearly because I had 25 personally viewed documents that would lead one to
2291 believe that the colour of right was far from clear in 2 that instance. 3 Q: And at this point, just to remind us, 4 Ron -- who was Ron Fox and what was his position with the 5 OPP? 6 A: Ron Fox was an inspector with the OPP 7 who was assigned as a First Nation's liaison officer 8 working in the deputy minister's office of the solicitor 9 general. 10 Q: And his role here was? 11 A: He -- he would participate on the 12 blockade committee as a police advisor given his 13 experience with the First Nation's issues. 14 Q: And vis-a-vis you with respect to 15 this incident, his role? 16 A: Well he -- he would -- he was keeping 17 me apprised of the status or the progress in relation to 18 the application process for the injunction. 19 Q: And did you understand at this time 20 that there was some debate going on whether or not the 21 MNR were going to seek an injunction? 22 A: Well, there had been discussion 23 earlier in the notes in regards to some comments by Ed 24 Vervoot that there was some varying views by the sounds 25 of it. And of course, this reinforced -- reinforced it
2301 from the discussion he'd obviously participated in. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And at this point in time, Ron Fox 6 was actually seconded to the Ministry of the Attorney -- 7 as Solicitor General? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And he wasn't functioning as a police 10 officer at the Ministry of the Solicitor General? 11 A: I'm not sure I can -- 12 Q: Well perhaps it's -- it's a bad 13 question. He was there as a police officer at the 14 Ministry in the role that you just described? 15 A: Correct; but he still held his police 16 authority. 17 Q: He was still -- he was still a member 18 of the Ontario Provincial Police? 19 A: Correct. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And was he taking orders or direction 24 in this post from his superiors at the Ontario Provincial 25 Police? Or do you know?
2311 A: To tell you the truth I -- I'm 2 probably not in a good position to really answer that 3 question. 4 Q: Thank you. Now at 15:07 -- before I 5 go there, at Tab 17 -- and actually there's one (1) last 6 question. 7 At Tab 16 at page 119, there's a reference 8 when Mr. -- Inspector Fox asks you, Deputy Carson, what 9 are their demands? You say they have none, he says they 10 have none, you say, no, no, it's their terminology, 11 burial grounds. 12 And what was the source of that 13 information? 14 A: Well it came from a number of spots. 15 I would suggest partly through Mark Wright and Brad 16 Seltzer's meeting and other comments that had been made 17 to others over the last several days quite frankly. 18 Q: And then you had at 14:53 a telephone 19 discussion with Mr. Coffee at GM Diesel? 20 A: At what time, sir? 21 Q: It shows on here 14:53:24 on 22 September 5th, it's Tab 17. 23 A: Oh, correct, yes. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW)
2321 2 John CARSON and Tom COFFEE 3 4 September 5, 1995 5 TIME: 14:53:24 hours 6 Track 3.wav 7 8 (Phone busy, phone dialling) 9 10 ARCHIBALD: Command Post ARCHIBALD. 11 COFFEE: ARCHIBALD can I speak to Inspector John 12 CARSON please, it's Tom Coffee from 13 General Motors. 14 ARCHIBALD: Oh okay he's just on the other line can 15 you hold for a sec. 16 COFFEE: Yes, I can. 17 ARCHIBALD: Oh okay. 18 (pause) 19 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Perhaps you're still on the phone 23 with Inspector Fox, because it was a call that was at -- 24 came in at 14:57? 25 A: Yes, I believe I told Fox I had
2331 another line waiting. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Just made him wait for a while. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 6 7 MALE: (background) Good morning Tom how are you 8 today. 9 MALE: (Background) Unintelligible. 10 COFFEE: (background) I'm just ah waiting to speak 11 to ah an Inspector here with the OPP. 12 MALE: (background) Just in the off chance I went 13 out and I checked (u/i) They've got two 14 (2) (u/i). 15 COFFEE: (to background) I don't think they're 16 gonna. We we are (u/i) he's on his way 17 back from out West he'll be here tomorrow. 18 19 (To background) But (u/i) is not 20 supportive of the release of a vehicle. 21 Ah see what they were hoping to be able to 22 do is maybe bring a couple of their people 23 in who have some familiarity with the 24 Bison. Apparently there's some ex- 25 military people with the OPP and they have
2341 some familiarity with the Bison and ah 2 this Chris COLES um ah is one of our 3 instructors. 4 MALE: (background) Okay. 5 COFFEE: Here. 6 MALE: Yep. 7 COFFEE: With the who's instructed the LPD on. 8 MALE: (u/i). 9 COFFEE: Driver vehicle testing. He is doing some 10 training this week er going to be. 11 (Background conversation unintelligible). 12 COFFEE: (to background (u/i) in a position to 13 release the vehicle unless there is some 14 um written agreement you know cause we'll 15 likely do what the 16 MALE: (background) (u/i) you were talking to the 17 guy in Forest (u/i). 18 COFFEE: (To background) On he's on I'm on hold 19 with him now. Um (u/i). 20 (Background talking) (u/i). 21 CARSON: Hello. 22 COFFEE: Yes. 23 CARSON: Oh hi I'm sorry I was 24 COFFEE: Okay. 25 CARSON: Tied up.
2351 COFFEE: John. 2 CARSON: Yes. 3 COFFEE: Yeah, it's Tom COFFEE. 4 CARSON: Yes. 5 COFFEE: John I have checked with ah the ah one of 6 their senior managers in the defense 7 operations at this point in time and he 8 advises me that ah they would not be in a 9 position to release a vehicle under the 10 current ah short notice. 11 CARSON: (U/i). 12 COFFEE: However my suggest my recommendation if if 13 you want to take it is that um you're your 14 people here in London ah your Chief of 15 Superintendent who or whoever that may be 16 may want to ah ah get in touch with ah a 17 William KIENAPPLE. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 COFFEE: Um and maybe start putting ah ah the 20 necessary plans in place that ah they have 21 developed at the LPD ah for ah at some 22 point in time when that agreement could be 23 agreed upon and worked out and the 24 training and all that. 25 CARSON: Yep yep.
2361 COFFEE: And maybe it could be in place tomorrow 2 err not tomorrow officially but I mean 3 maybe something could be placed. 4 CARSON: Yep, yep. 5 COFFEE: To make it happen. 6 CARSON: Yep that's fine. 7 COFFEE: Okay. 8 CARSON: Okay. Well I appreciate your time in it. 9 COFFEE: Alright John. 10 CARSON: Thank you. 11 COFFEE: Right. 12 CARSON: Right. 13 14 End of Conversation 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And if I could take you back to the 18 scribe notes at 15:07, there's a note and it runs over 19 onto 15:38. There's an entry -- the next entry in terms 20 of time is 15:52 but we've got a couple of telephone 21 calls in there. 22 Is -- can you tell me -- do you recall 23 this entry at 15:07, is this a briefing? 24 A: Which page are you on, sorry? 25 Q: At page 37 and 38 of the scribe
2371 notes. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: That's what it appears to be, yes. 6 Q: And the -- you -- you report on your 7 telephone conversation with -- about Ron Fox? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the -- Mr. Kobayashi reports 10 they're having someone searching title on the land? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And you identify -- you state: 13 "We're on the right track, there was 14 some concern notice wasn't accepted. 15 Ron Fox is dealing with the legal 16 issues, checking over press releases. 17 Don't have the paperwork for the 18 injunction yet." 19 And then Detective Sergeant Wright 20 indicates: 21 "He advised the First Nations people 22 that they are trespassing and that it's 23 his understanding the MNR are seeking 24 an injunction. Press may have heard 25 him say that."
2381 Les Kobayashi states: 2 "Their intention is to get an 3 injunction. They have done some 4 research and the burial site is at 5 Kettle Point, not at the Park. MNR has 6 it researched." 7 And the -- then there's a note, Inspector. 8 Do you have any independent recollection 9 of this particular conversation? 10 A: This meeting itself? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Not particularly. 13 Q: And then: 14 "Inspector Carson advises that the 15 talks with GM diesel is off. Detective 16 Sergeant..." 17 And that, I take it, the call that you 18 just had with Mr. Coffee? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And "Detective Sergeant Wright 21 suggested contacting Petawawa for 22 military tanks. Carson state -- 23 Inspector Carson stated that if the 24 risk was bad enough, we will go the 25 military. Risk factors haven't
2391 escalated yet. Have to leave options 2 open." 3 And what were you referring to there? 4 A: Well, it was just that we had to, 5 again, from the contingency point of view if -- if the 6 risk factors start to rise, maybe that's an option we're 7 going to have to seek out. 8 But at this point in time, the risk 9 factors hadn't escalated to that level yet. 10 Q: Okay. Then there's a note -- the 11 note goes on: 12 "Les Kobayashi wanted to know if they 13 should go back to the Park today. 14 Detective Sergeant Wright feels we 15 won't accomplish anything today. John 16 Carson asked Mark Wright if there were 17 any trees at the entrance of the Park. 18 Mark Wright: When they went to 19 Ipperwash, all the vehicles from the 20 Park were there." 21 And I take it, when you went to Ipperwash, 22 the army camp that what -- is that what's being referred 23 to? 24 A: Quite likely, yes. 25 Q: And then: "Inspector Ron Fox, deputy
2401 minister's office updating blockade -- 2 call to update Inspector Carson." 3 That's a reference to the call we just 4 heard with Ron Fox? 5 A: I believe so, yes. 6 Q: Did you have any other calls with Ron 7 Fox at this time? 8 A: Not that I recall. 9 Q: Then could I take you to page 438 of 10 the Exhibit 437, the handwritten scribe notes? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And the scribe notes have a note at 15 page 438, there's a time entry which I cannot read. I 16 presume it's -- well, I just simply can't read it. 17 But there's a note: 18 "Ron Fox sitting on committee. Sounds 19 like they're going to get an emergency 20 order." 21 Then "KOS", is that -- I take it it's Les 22 Kobayashi? 23 A: I would believe so, yes. 24 Q: "Having someone search title." 25 Then, "JC", that's you?
2411 A: Yes. 2 Q: "The Premier's no different treatment 3 from anybody else. We're okay, on 4 right track. Concern notice 5 wasn't accept. Ron Fox dealing with 6 legal issues. Checking on press 7 releases. Don't have paperwork for 8 injunction." 9 "Joining" I think it says there. 10 MR. MARK SANDLER: Going. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Pardon? 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: Going. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Going. Then I note that the line, 16 "Premier's no different treatment from anybody else," 17 does not appear in the typed scribe notes? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Do you know why? 20 A: I have no idea. I -- I -- I had 21 never compared the handwritten to the written notes 22 before. It was certainly only brought to my attention 23 years after the fact. 24 Q: And did you instruct someone not to 25 put the reference to the Premier in the typed scribe
2421 notes? 2 A: No, I did not. 3 Q: Then, at fifteen (15) -- at the same 4 time, Sergeant Korosec advised you that the Kincardine 5 boat has arrived and that's the HH Graham? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And at 15:21, you call Media 8 Relations, it's call number -- transcript number 18; is 9 that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you were looking to simply -- 12 looking for Sergeant Babbitt with respect to a press 13 release? 14 A: That's what it appears, yes. 15 Q: And you spoke to, I think, Sergeant 16 Cousineau or Arsenault? 17 A: Yes, JJ Arsenault. 18 Q: And then at 15:36 you had a 19 discussion with a Captain Bachelor at the Canadian Army? 20 A: Correct. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And that, Commissioner, appears at 25 Tab 19 of the book of transcripts.
2431 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 CPT. BACHELOR (DND) and John CARSON 4 5 September 5, 1995 6 TIME: 15:36:40 hours 7 Track 1.wav 8 9 (phone ringing) 10 11 ARCHIBALD: Command Post ARCHIBALD. 12 BACHELOR: Yes good afternoon it's Captain BACHELOR 13 from the Chief 3 Operations at Land Force 14 Central Area Headquarters calling. 15 ARCHIBALD: Um hum. 16 BACHELOR: I was wondering if I could possibly speak 17 to Inspector CARSON please. 18 ARCHIBALD: Just one moment please. 19 BACHELOR: Thank you. 20 (background talking) 21 CARSON: Inspector CARSON. 22 BACHELOR: Yes good afternoon sir it's Captain 23 BACHELOR I'm the Chief 3 Operations at 24 Land Force Central Area Headquarters in 25 Toronto.
2441 CARSON: Uh huh how are you today. 2 BACHELOR: I'm doing okay and yourself. 3 CARSON: Good as well as can be expected. 4 BACHELOR: Um is ah you can probably guess I'm 5 following up in some staff work to 6 determine the extent of ah sort of concept 7 of operations and this has to do with the 8 vehicles. 9 CARSON: Right. 10 BACHELOR: Ah that have been requested of ah DND. 11 CARSON: Okay ah well when you say requested are we 12 talking about the Labs. 13 BACHELOR: Ah yes. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 BACHELOR: Or the variant thereof. 16 CARSON: Okay yeah right ah well before you look at 17 that as a request I I inquired of one of 18 our people who's one of your Melissa folks 19 I believe he's a captain of Melissa to 20 inquire you know ah the kind of 21 availability and the ah lines that would 22 have to be ah developed if that 23 eventuality presented itself. 24 BACHELOR: Um hum. 25 CARSON: So that's what I'm kind of looking at
2451 right now is ah if we saw a need for that 2 type of vehicle how would we go about ah 3 dealing ah with that eventuality. 4 BACHELOR: Okay and and that request started at you 5 did it. 6 CARSON: Yes. 7 BACHELOR: At your level. 8 CARSON: Yes. 9 BACHELOR: Well I don't know who got a hold of it but 10 um it seems to have escalated 11 significantly up to the Solicitor General 12 level. 13 CARSON: Oh oh oh. 14 BACHELOR: And in fact ah it's gone across to NDHQ 15 which is our National Defence Headquarters 16 and they're just ah sort of sitting on it 17 now. 18 CARSON: Oh okay well maybe what's happened then ah 19 probab probably I I had a discussion 20 earlier today with ah our Inspector who 21 works in our Field Coordination in charge 22 of Emergency Response. 23 BACHELOR: Um hum. 24 CARSON: And ah so obviously he was ah ah working 25 on that end as well so he's he's probably
2461 ah got things working from that end. 2 BACHELOR: Pushed it up. 3 CARSON: Yep that's so that's where we come that 4 way. 5 BACHELOR: Okay my question I guess to you is have 6 you thought through um any farther than 7 the initial sort of concept. 8 CARSON: No. 9 BACHELOR: Um because the questions that were asking 10 um I mean our availability at this point 11 is ah is good in that we do have vehicles 12 available. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 BACHELOR: Um drivers and crew commanders are still 15 ah were still researching that but things 16 look fairly good. 17 CARSON: Well ah if if it's any help to you what 18 what I would like to see if it's at all 19 possible like one one of our fellows in ah 20 our Windsor area is a captain with you 21 folks and our guys jokingly call him the 22 tank commander and and (u/i) does a lot of 23 training in Meaford and was either up 24 there or was just going up there ah and 25 works ah in that you know line of work if
2471 you would and we had another we had 2 another fellow at our London Detachment 3 who has only been with us for less than a 4 year who came out of the infantry and ah 5 Petawawa I understand he has a background 6 in that same area. 7 BACHELOR: Okay so what you're saying is there is a 8 possibility that you could provide your 9 own drivers. 10 CARSON: Right if you guys could provide some ah 11 you know ah updated and training. 12 BACHELOR: Right and that that was my question. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 BACHELOR: Um ah with respect to the concept of 15 operations we have to start considering if 16 it's your intent to request the vehicles 17 um and provide your own drivers then 18 there'll be a requirement to have them 19 undergo some some sort of ah testing to 20 ensure that they are in fact qualified 21 that their 22 CARSON: Sure competent. 23 BACHELOR: (u/i). 24 CARSON: Sure sure. 25 BACHELOR: Um the other some of the other questions
2481 um is that if we provide the vehicles but 2 you provide the drivers um were concerned 3 that I guess the vehicles are portrayed to 4 be with the OPP and also with the 5 military. 6 CARSON: Well and and that is something that we 7 would very much want to be apparent. 8 BACHELOR: Okay do you have the capability of putting 9 sort of police stick ons I don't know what 10 ah. 11 CARSON: Well we 12 BACHELOR: Decals. 13 CARSON: Yeah well we could we could either put on 14 ah ah ah magnetic overlays or some stick 15 on decals are no problem. 16 BACHELOR: Right. 17 CARSON: We've got lots. 18 BACHELOR: (U/i) capabilities. 19 CARSON: Oh yeah that that's ah no problem. 20 BACHELOR: Okay so and the other thing was the the 21 sort of um staging area. 22 CARSON: Okay ah well right now were still in the 23 middle of I guess risk analysis. 24 BACHELOR: Yeah. 25 CARSON: Um so we're still low level but you know
2491 given the issues that are happening out in 2 BC the last day or so in it we just don't 3 know if that's gonna carry over down here. 4 BACHELOR: Um hum. 5 CARSON: Ah we I think we're still a little 6 premature to to say that we would like any 7 anything moved down close at all yet. 8 BACHELOR: Right. 9 CARSON: Ah ah hopefully that's you know a day or 10 two down the road at the earliest. 11 BACHELOR: Um hum. 12 CARSON: Ah but is it fair to say um if we can 13 arrange some training for our two people 14 that ah I'll have em where ever you want 15 them whenever you want them as quickly as 16 you want them. 17 BACHELOR: Okay. 18 CARSON: Okay. If that can be 19 BACHELOR: Yep. 20 CARSON: accomplished. 21 BACHELOR: Okay so you're your schedule for 22 availability of of those people that you 23 want trained is fairly flexible then. 24 CARSON: Well if you said you wanted....tomorrow 25 morning at eight (8) o'clock they'd be
2501 there. 2 BACHELOR: Okay understood. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 BACHELOR: Yep Um. 5 CARSON: Because I guess I would personally rather 6 see them qualify and never use them than 7 need em and not be ready. 8 BACHELOR: Absolutely. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 BACHELOR: So yep. 11 CARSON: Sure. 12 BACHELOR: Not at ah that's okay and and as far as 13 the staging um I I would think that you 14 wouldn't want sort of take them right to 15 where you might need them. 16 CARSON: No ah what. 17 BACHELOR: ....Meaford....weapons stage in Meaford. 18 CARSON: Probably. 19 BACHELOR: Um. 20 CARSON: Probably um at least until the till the 21 risk was ah ah fairly significant. 22 BACHELOR: Right. 23 CARSON: And and then we would probably look at 24 moving em say to Pinery Provincial Park we 25 could kind of secrete em out of the way.
2511 BACHELOR: Yeah. 2 CARSON: Cause we have our our tactical team and 3 gun trucks and things put away in there 4 there out of sight. 5 BACHELOR: Sure. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 BACHELOR: Um is that yeah some I mean not aware of 8 that particular location but I was 9 thinking of even ah Detachment London. 10 CARSON: Right that that that would be excellent as 11 well. 12 BACHELOR: Yep. 13 CARSON: Yeah that's right I certainly that would 14 be perfect. 15 BACHELOR: Okay um mean the Military Detachment. 16 CARSON: Yep yep exactly. 17 BACHELOR: (U/I) the ah 18 CARSON: Right. 19 BACHELOR: yourselves. 20 CARSON: No that I I I caught that yeah. 21 BACHELOR: Okay. 22 CARSON: Yep. 23 BACHELOR: Um okay um hmm the impression that I'm 24 getting from you and what I've sort of 25 been led to believe is ah a little ah
2521 inconsistent. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 BACHELOR: Um only from the point of view that ah I'm 4 anticipating receiving a tasking message 5 from our headquarters on National Defense 6 Headquarters sometime in the next twenty- 7 four (24) hours ah tasking these vehicles. 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 BACHELOR: Um and and where as you know at your level 10 sort of on the bottom of the other side. 11 CARSON: Um hum. 12 BACHELOR: Uh it seems as though you're supposed to 13 go through your risk analysis and haven't 14 sort of (u/i) solidified a plan per say. 15 CARSON: Well okay the the reason being is ah just 16 to give you some I guess appreciation of 17 where we are ah it's a Provincial Park and 18 the Ministry has to seek a court 19 injunction before we would take any overt 20 action. 21 BACHELOR: I see. 22 CARSON: And at this point in time we are simply 23 securing the general area but once the 24 court injunction is secured which would be 25 at best late tomorrow.
2531 BACHELOR: Um hum. 2 CARSON: Then ah we would have to decide how we act 3 and anything we do at that point would 4 would could be perceived as overt and and 5 that's when our our risk would increase. 6 BACHELOR: Um hum. 7 CARSON: And at that point ah I would like you know 8 to have that option available to us like 9 you say if you had em at a detachment in 10 London or something like that that would 11 ah certainly be a close at hand that we 12 could ah you know respond ah say if we 13 wanted moved up even closer than that with 14 you know a you know an hours notice. 15 BACHELOR: Um hum. 16 CARSON: Ah would would be okay. 17 BACHELOR: Okay. 18 CARSON: Ah but if if the risk you know if there 19 were shots fired and ah you know a serious 20 ah you know escalation then I think we'd 21 have to look at having them say at ah you 22 know within you know fifteen (15) minute 23 response in case somebody was down. 24 BACHELOR: Sure. 25 CARSON: And then there is some geography there are
2541 you familiar with the with the 2 BACHELOR: I 3 CARSON: base Ipperwash. 4 BACHELOR: I haven't been down there myself no. 5 CARSON: Oh (U/I). 6 BACHELOR: I've seen it ah on from with photos and 7 I've seen it on a map. 8 CARSON: Oh okay. 9 BACHELOR: (U/I) never been there myself. 10 CARSON: Well there is a ah ah a township road that 11 is a perimeter to the Provincial Park and 12 and adjacent to the Military Base and 13 which is fenced on the on the park side 14 and fenced on the Military side. 15 BACHELOR: The western boundary of the camp. 16 CARSON: That's right. 17 BACHELOR: Okay. 18 CARSON: So what happens there is is if we have 19 people in there they are literally ah ah 20 in a tunnel if you would and if for some 21 forsaken reason we had somebody injured in 22 there we'd have a dell of a time trying to 23 get somebody in to extricate them. 24 BACHELOR: Understood. 25 CARSON: So that that's really the kind of risk we
2551 want to be prepared for. 2 BACHELOR: Okay. 3 CARSON: So ah I guess you know we (laughs) were 4 still kind of betwixt and between because 5 we haven't got all the signals straight 6 from our from our friends who are giving 7 us this ah problem so. 8 BACHELOR: Okay. 9 CARSON: That's that's kind of where we are. 10 BACHELOR: (U/I) that answers my questions my 11 questions though and ah 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 BACHELOR: (U/I) either myself err ah one of my 14 compatriots will be talking to you or your 15 rep sometime. 16 CARSON: Okay and you what's your phone number 17 Captain. 18 BACHELOR: I'm at five (5) three (3) five (5) five 19 (5). 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 BACHELOR: That's ah my during work hour phone 22 number. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 BACHELOR: Ah that's the extension ah the full number 25 would be area code four (4) one (1) six
2561 (6). 2 CARSON: Right. 3 BACHELOR: Seven (7) three (3) three (3) four (4) six 4 (6) eight (8) one (1). 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 BACHELOR: With that extension that I've just given 7 you. 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 BACHELOR: Three (3) five (5) five (5). 10 CARSON: Right. 11 BACHELOR: During off hours. 12 CARSON: Yep. 13 BACHELOR: The after hours. 14 CARSON: Um hum. 15 BACHELOR: You can get a direct line into our area 16 operations center which operates twenty- 17 four (24) hours a day seven (7) days a 18 week. 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 BACHELOR: And it's the same area code seven (7) 21 three (3) three (3). 22 CARSON: Yep. 23 BACHELOR: Five (5) three (3) two (2) two (2). 24 CARSON: Five (5) three (3) two (2) two (2). 25 BACHELOR: That's a direct line in.
2571 CARSON: Okay yeah matter a fact I'm sure I've got 2 that number ah from my ah two (2) years 3 ago with ah the issues up there five (5) 4 three (3) two (2) two(2) I'm sure I do 5 cause I dealt with many of your people 6 there during that little episode if you 7 would. 8 BACHELOR: Yep well there's a quite a few of them 9 that are still here so. 10 CARSON: Okay well that's good (laughs). 11 BACHELOR: Hear some familiar names. 12 CARSON: Yeah well that's okay that's okay 13 alrighty. 14 BACHELOR: (U/I). 15 CARSON: So ah I guess ah I've gotta wait for your 16 reply as to ah ah how we go about ah ah 17 any training issues. 18 BACHELOR: Well ah my ah. 19 CARSON: Or how do we do we 20 BACHELOR: That that will be in fact the case so 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 BACHELOR: Once we are once we have been officially 23 tasked then we will be getting a hold of 24 yourselves. 25 CARSON: Okay.
2581 BACHELOR: To determine where and when and the 2 training. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 BACHELOR: That needs to be taken place. What I 5 would hope is that ah with this sort 6 initial contact phone call that ah you'd 7 be able to confirm in fact sort of names 8 and availability of the person that you 9 are 10 CARSON: Okay is there any information on them as 11 individuals like belonging to the ah 12 reserves now that would help your ah 13 review there status I guess if you would. 14 BACHELOR: Um no I think um no I don't think that 15 that 16 CARSON: Okay. 17 BACHELOR: That's required. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 BACHELOR: Certainly certainly numbers I understand 20 that you're going to need a qualified 21 driver for each and ah somebody who is 22 available to sort of crew command. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 BACHELOR: (U/I) the observer as it were. 25 CARSON: Okay now does the observer need any
2591 special training. 2 BACHELOR: Um. 3 CARSON: or (u/i). 4 BACHELOR: yeah he does. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 BACHELOR: Um but not through me as much as the 7 driver does. 8 CARSON: Okay but I mean ah from a if ah if you had 9 guys there the day after tomorrow would 10 the observer a need to have some 11 qualifications in advance I guess. 12 BACHELOR: Ah no. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 BACHELOR: Essentially I mean the only qualification 15 is that you would need some previous 16 experience essentially I mean the crew 17 commander is this guy who sits on top and 18 gives hand signals and ah that sort of 19 thing. 20 CARSON: Okay well I know I've got ah ah brand new 21 guy he's only been with us ah he's just 22 come out of recruit training who is a 23 captain ah down your way there somewhere 24 and ah another one who ah reported to 25 London less than twelve (12) months ago
2601 and the lad down in Windsor who ah who's 2 very active in the militia so all I need 3 is one (1) more guy and ah I'm sure that 4 ah we've we've got numerous ex-military 5 with us. 6 BACHELOR: Right. 7 CARSON: So we will give you people with that kind 8 of background so if they'll 9 BACHELOR: Okay. 10 CARSON: They'll know the song and dance if you 11 would. 12 BACHELOR: Yeah yeah do just one thing for your own 13 edification that being an officer doesn't 14 necessarily mean that they have all the 15 qualifications to be drivers because 16 normally drivers um are are not officers 17 (u/i). 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 BACHELOR: And in fact the ah hardly are they ever 20 crew commanders. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 BACHELOR: Unless they get up higher in the echelon 23 as far as vehicle type. 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 BACHELOR: So normally you would have probably a
2611 master corporal. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 BACHELOR: As a crew commander and possibly a private 4 corporal as the driver. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 BACHELOR: Um so you know you may have people like 7 that. 8 CARSON: Yep I'm I'm sure we do. 9 BACHELOR: All I can say is that that doesn't 10 necessarily have to be an officer. 11 CARSON: Okay yep that's not a problem. 12 BACHELOR: Okay. 13 CARSON: Very good. 14 BACHELOR: Okay. 15 CARSON: Thank you very much. 16 BACHELOR: Will talk to you's again soon. 17 CARSON: Okay bye. 18 BACHELOR: Bye. 19 20 End of conversation. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Now before we go there's -- proceed - 24 - the inspector that you refer to is Inspector Robertson? 25 A: Yes, sir.
2621 Q: And how many light armoured vehicles 2 were you looking for at this point in time on September 3 the 5th? 4 A: Well, actually we were looking for 5 one (1) but I think -- I'm not sure where I received 6 information, but the Military's operating procedures 7 requires the use of two (2). 8 Q: And what was your understanding of 9 why the Military's operating procedures required two (2)? 10 A: Because as they operate -- and I may 11 have received some of that information through Inspector 12 Hutchinson and -- and the experience they're having in 13 BC. But if one (1) of the machines should break down, 14 they have to have a machine there that can connect to it 15 and drag it out. 16 Q: And at page 137, Commissioner, 17 there's a number of -- throughout these transcripts, 18 minor changes and minor spelling -- spelling errors that 19 I haven't sought to correct. 20 But on this one in particular, page 137, 21 there is an important change. Mr. Batch -- Captain 22 Bachelor says: 23 "The other -- some of the other 24 questions is that if we provide the 25 vehicles, that
2631 you provide the drivers. We're 2 concerned that, I guess, the vehicles 3 are portrayed to be with the OPP." 4 And the typed version said " and also with 5 the Military" and actually Captain Bachelor said "as 6 opposed to the Military". 7 And where it says, "where concerned," that 8 should be, "we're concerned." We are concerned. What 9 the military -- you took from the call and the discussion 10 about decals that the military wanted to make it clear 11 that if they provided these vehicles to you, they were 12 being used as OPP vehicles and not Military vehicles? 13 A: That was very clear. 14 Q: And then on page 142, Mr. Carson 15 says: "So what happens there is -- is 16 if we have people in there, they're 17 literally -- uh -- uh -- in a tunnel, 18 if you would, and if for some forsaken 19 reason we had somebody injured in 20 there, we'd have a [it should be] devil 21 of a time trying to get somebody in to 22 extricate him." 23 Is that correct? That's what I heard on 24 the -- 25 A: Yes.
2641 Q: And the concern was, as you told us 2 yesterday, about Matheson Drive and the fact that it was 3 a tunnel? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And I note in the scribe notes, in 6 the typed version of the scribed notes, that this call is 7 listed at 15:52, but at page -- excuse me for a moment, I 8 had it here a minute ago, at page 442 of Exhibit 427, 9 Inquiry Document 1000152, the actual time is noted as 10 3:52; do you see that -- 11 A: It's -- it's 3:42 in the 12 handwritten -- 13 Q: I mean 3:42, yes. 14 A: Right. And 3:52 in the typed. 15 Q: And so that in the typed version, it 16 should be 15:42 as opposed to 15:52? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Then -- on the telephone call, you 19 appeared to be surprised that the Solicitor General's 20 Office had apparently intervened to request the light 21 armoured vehicles at the National Defence General 22 Headquarters. 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: I take it you were surprised? 25 A: Yes, I was.
2651 Q: And why were you surprised? 2 A: Because I personally hadn't made that 3 request through the Ministry Office. Now, the -- that is 4 the appropriate channel to make a Federal request for 5 equipment. I didn't appreciate that in all likelihood, 6 Inspector Robertson, as a result of our earlier 7 discussions, had taken it upon himself to initiate that 8 request. 9 Q: So that if the police, back in 1995, 10 were going to seek assistance from the Federal 11 Government, the request would go through the Ministry of 12 the Solicitor General? 13 A: Oh, yes. 14 Q: Can you just tell us a little -- your 15 understanding of the procedure back in 1995? 16 A: Complex. 17 Q: Okay. Give us a -- the -- 18 A: It -- the -- the request has to be 19 made through the Ministry and technically the -- the 20 Minister of the Solicitor General must make a request 21 from the Provincial to the Federal Minister -- Provincial 22 to the Federal Solicitor General, it will go across from 23 there if approved, to the Minister of the Department of 24 National Defence, who will pass it down through National 25 Defence Headquarters, Ottawa, and be tasked as
2661 appropriate. 2 So it's -- it's quite a bureaucratic 3 process, to say the least. 4 Q: And at this point in time, as you 5 say, you were surprised when Captain Bachelor referred to 6 the Solicitor General and National Defence Headquarters? 7 A: Yes, I was surprised he already would 8 have been aware. 9 Q: Then, excuse me for a minute. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now, there's an entry at 16:00 hours, 14 Inspector Robinson advised chopper on its way, which was 15 to fly through a weather system around the Sioux, working 16 on getting ERT, quote, "No [new word] Mex" end quote, 17 suits, he can get us native speaking officers if 18 required. 19 And I don't have a note of that call. Do 20 you have any recollection of a call with Inspector 21 Robinson in the late afternoon on September the 5th? 22 A: Well, I know we had a discussion 23 about Nomex kit. 24 Q: And what is Nomex kit? 25 A: Nomex is material that is fire
2671 retardant. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: What -- what equipment we're talking 4 about here is basically coveralls. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Like a one (1) piece jumpsuit that 7 would be used by officers or -- or whoever that is fire 8 resistant. 9 Q: And why was there a discussion to 10 Nomex suits at this time? 11 A: Well, given the experience we had on 12 the Monday evening in regards to the flare being thrown 13 at officers, was just trying to be mindful of the fact 14 that if we had a situation where there was another 15 confrontation, we were certainly inquiring if Nomex suits 16 were available. 17 So that if we had to -- to have some 18 dealings that had the potential of being violent in any 19 way, where there was potential of flares or fire brands 20 or any other incendiary device being thrown, then it 21 would provide as much protection as possible for the 22 officers who were involved. 23 Q: Okay. And then he says, He can get 24 us native speaking officers if required. 25 What, if anything, do you recall with
2681 respect to that issue? 2 A: I don't -- I don't recall any 3 discussion about that, but he would certainly be able to 4 access our human resources area and identify officers who 5 -- who could speak various languages. And something -- 6 he was offering up a service or trying to do some work 7 for me that, if -- if it was so required, but quite 8 frankly, I didn't believe it was necessary. 9 We didn't have any -- any difficulty in -- 10 in that respect. 11 Q: And what respect? In communicating 12 with the occupiers? 13 A: Yeah. There was -- there was no -- 14 there was no language barrier issue here. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And perhaps it would 16 be an appropriate time for the afternoon break? It's 17 3:15. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 Do you have an end time in mind for today, Mr. Millar, or 20 should we just wait and see how it goes? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think we could -- 22 the actual wait time is -- the closing time is 4:30. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When we 24 start at 9:00 in the morning -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We start at 9:00 --
2691 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- tomorrow. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- in the morning and 3 we'll try to adhere to that as best we can. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 We'll take a break now. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for fifteen (15) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 3:13 p.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 3:30 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed. Please be seated. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: If I could take you back, Deputy 17 Carson, to Tab 16... 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: The telephone conversation with 20 Inspector Fox and there's a reference on page 116 and 21 very much empowered and basically the Premier has made it 22 clear to her his position is that there are no -- there 23 be no different treatment of the people in this 24 situation. 25 In other words, native as opposed to
2701 non-native, and what did you take from that? 2 A: Well, what I took from that is he was 3 articulating to me the discussion that had -- or the 4 position that had been discussed at his Inter-ministerial 5 committee meeting. 6 And he went on to I guess explain the 7 differences in regards to the various situations, from 8 his perspective. So basically, for lack of a better 9 term, he's sharing with me somebody's opinion. 10 Q: And the -- he then goes on in the 11 bottom line is: 12 "Wants them out and you know, was asked 13 me, well, what would the police do in a 14 situation where there wasn't Natives. 15 I said, Well, I mean you can't compare 16 apples and oranges." 17 Q: And what did you take from the 18 reference "you can't compare apples and oranges," if 19 anything? 20 A: Well, what I take from that is that 21 he's applying some of his experience and understanding of 22 the situation that is occurring. And that he, you know, 23 goes on to explain the differences from his point of view 24 and he has some understanding and experience in the 25 issues with First Nation's issues, that's the reason he's
2711 providing expertise as a First Nations advisor. 2 So it appears that he's trying to educate 3 some of the people on that committee about the 4 differences that they need to understand. 5 Q: And if I could take you to page 122. 6 There's a reference: 7 "As I said and I've said you've got to 8 understand that the Provincial Police 9 will never shirk the responsibility but 10 read their hands will get dirty read so 11 will the government's. 12 That's right [you say and then Fox] and 13 as long as we're prepared for that. 14 Carson: That's right and I doubt if 15 they are. Well, you know, I doubt if-- 16 Fox: Yeah, this this -- 17 Carson: I mean, if we're going to do 18 that over trespassing. 19 Fox: That's exactly right and I said, 20 you know, you just can't do that. 21 Carson: That's right. I mean if we're 22 going to do that, I -- we have to have 23 the force of the law behind us to 24 provide some recognition by a court in 25 this land.
2721 [And Fox says] And let's not lose 2 sight of the fact that this is a civil 3 matter. 4 Carson: That's right, that's right." 5 And what did you take from the -- when you 6 said, "I mean if we're going to do that over 7 trespassing." What did you -- 8 A: Well, that -- that's almost more of a 9 rhetorical questioning type of response and that anything 10 else is that, you know, like, you know, do you think that 11 we're going to do this over trespassing? 12 Q: Do what? 13 A: Remove the occupiers. So, basically 14 Fox and myself are -- are going through a debate over his 15 -- not a debate -- a discussion over his experience at 16 that prior meeting. 17 And I wanted to make sure that we had a -- 18 an understanding I guess from -- from my comments here 19 that we were proceeding with an injunction and we require 20 the force of a court order in order to take any steps in 21 this particular regard, so. 22 Q: It was your position that the -- you 23 as Incident Commander were not going to take any steps to 24 remove the people -- to remove the occupiers from the 25 Park without an injunction?
2731 A: I -- I think it's very clear in my 2 comments to Fox that we were proceeding with the 3 injunction. That was our direction and we were 4 continuing the course. 5 Q: And what, if anything, did you do as 6 a result of this telephone conversation and the 7 expression in the telephone conversation of the Premier's 8 interest in this issue? 9 A: What did I do? 10 Q: Did you do anything different? 11 A: It -- it changed nothing in the way I 12 was -- I was going about my work. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: We continued on. I think you'll find 15 further on that we continued gathering information and 16 taking the necessary steps to work with the Ministry of 17 Natural Resources to assist them in their application. 18 Q: And then at page 125, there's another 19 discussion about flimsy grounds. You say: 20 "Well, and I'm hesitant at getting too 21 excited about moving on the Park until 22 we have some Court injunction like, 23 that's right, for the mere trespassing 24 is pretty flimsy grounds. Do you know 25 they started arresting people? Do you
2741 know it's not going to look very good 2 on Canada AM I'll tell you. 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: "Well, yeah. Yep, well, and that's 5 the whole point. Yep, yep." 6 And I take it, tell me what you meant by 7 that? 8 A: Well, that's -- that's the same 9 discussion I've had earlier with various people, whether 10 it's Ken Williams or Fred Thomas or Marcel Beaubien, any 11 of them. It's trying to ensure that removing somebody in 12 this kind of a situation under the Trespass to Property 13 Act, is a pretty fruitless approach to trying to come to 14 some resolution because the trespassing in and of itself, 15 isn't going to solve the problem. 16 So we go on and we could arrest somebody 17 for trespassing, remove them, give them a Provincial 18 Offences notice and five (5) minutes later be faced with 19 the same situation. 20 We needed something that was going to 21 address the whole issue that was the root here, and that 22 was going to have to come from some decision made by a 23 Court. 24 Q: And what did you expect that a Court 25 would do if an application for an injunction were
2751 granted? 2 A: Well, quite frankly -- 3 Q: Were sought, actually. 4 A: I really didn't know for sure, but my 5 perception, I guess is probably the best thing, is that 6 the Court would either agree that the Ministry of Natural 7 Resources had clear title and that the parties were 8 required to vacate. And it would probably indicate that 9 the Ontario Provincial Police or however, what action we 10 might be directed to take in relation to the Order of the 11 Court. 12 Q: Okay. And as a result of this call, 13 did you make any changes in your approach? 14 A: No, sir, none whatsoever. 15 Q: And if I could take you to call -- 16 Tab 20, it's a call that actually starts with: "Carson: 17 Hi, Rob", at page 148. This is a call with Rob Shaw, and 18 Rob Shaw was one (1) of your police officers? 19 A: Yes, he was an officer serving at the 20 Windsor casino unit, I believe, at that time. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 25
2761 Rob Shaw and John CARSON 2 3 September 5, 1995 4 TIME: 15:59:04 hours 5 Track 1.wav 6 7 (Phone ringing) 8 9 CARSON: Hi, Rob. 10 SHAW: Hi. 11 CARSON: How are yah? 12 SHAW: Good how are you? 13 CARSON: Not bad. I hear you're the number one (1) 14 tank commander. 15 SHAW: (laughs) Actually I I it's funny when Stan 16 called I just just come back the twenty- 17 second (22nd) of August from Meaford so. 18 CARSON: Yeah so you know how to drive one of those 19 things. 20 SHAW: Uh yeah I know how to drive one but ah um 21 Phil BROWN is a driver I'm not a commander 22 I'm a squadron commander. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 SHAW: I command eighteen (18) of them. 25 CARSON: Yeah.
2771 SHAW: And ah there ah there's a Bison is what 2 you're looking for and the closest one 3 would be at Meaford. 4 CARSON: Yeah well ah. 5 SHAW: I understand you were already talking to 6 Major GIFFIN and ah in a Toronto. 7 CARSON: Ah ah. 8 SHAW: Army Headquarters in Toronto. 9 CARSON: Yeah ah not GIBSON the guy BACHELOR. 10 SHAW: Oh okay well Major I was talking to Major 11 GIFFIN and THOMPSON ah. 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 SHAW: Operations. 14 CARSON: Well what what's happened is ah Field 15 Coordination is also ah been ah putting a 16 request through so the official request 17 went up through the chain and it's coming 18 back down the Federal side. 19 SHAW: Yep. 20 CARSON: So they haven't got their orders yet but 21 they they anticipate ah to receive ah 22 orders shortly. 23 SHAW: Okay. 24 CARSON: To release vehicles to us. 25 SHAW: Right.
2781 CARSON: Which of course we require training first. 2 SHAW: Right. 3 CARSON: Would would you get a hold of Phil BROWN. 4 SHAW: Yes. 5 CARSON: And I'll get Stand involved in this as we 6 go but we my is well get ready get a 7 hold of Phil and make sure that he's 8 prepared to help us out there. 9 SHAW: He is I've already spoken to him. 10 CARSON: Okay good. 11 SHAW: Stan called me as I talked to Phil he's a 12 he was the transport NCO for First Batalon 13 of the (u/i) regular army. 14 CARSON: Okay would you ask him or maybe you know 15 is there anybody else who knows how to run 16 one of those things. 17 SHAW: Um I know of a guy in I know of a guy for 18 certain in ah in but he's in the Oshawa 19 area somewhere. 20 CARSON: Well that's okay. 21 SHAW: He's an officer in the Ontario Regiment. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 SHAW: I know of I'm not sure about ah from 24 Sombra Detachment it use to be Sombra 25 Detachment ah.
2791 CARSON: JACKLIN. 2 SHAW: Yeah I'm not sure about Wayde I don't 3 know. 4 CARSON: Well pursue that cause he's here with ERT 5 we can find that out ah he'll be out of 6 bed shortly. 7 SHAW: Yep. 8 CARSON: Ah we have another captain in Tillsonburg 9 who must arrived with us from the regular 10 forces ah ah maybe two (2) weeks ago. 11 SHAW: Okay. 12 CARSON: So if you would get a hold of Tillsonburg 13 and maybe pursue that. 14 SHAW: Okay. 15 CARSON: So what we're going to need is is two (2) 16 drivers and two (2) observers. 17 SHAW: You need ah you need two (2) drivers and 18 two (2) crew commanders. 19 CARSON: All right. 20 SHAW: If you're doing anything at all it it ah 21 basically how those vehicles operate is 22 your driver has sometimes limited vision. 23 CARSON: Right. 24 SHAW: Crew commander actually commands where the 25 vehicles go and how it's driven.
2801 CARSON: Right. 2 SHAW: And ah you need two (2) qualified crew 3 commanders and two (2) qualified drivers. 4 CARSON: Right. 5 SHAW: Now Phil BROWN is a qualified driver. 6 CARSON: Good. 7 SHAW: He would just need a little updating 8 because he's driven the older versions of 9 it the Bison. 10 CARSON: Yep yep. 11 SHAW: And I'm a qualified crew commander. 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 SHAW: And ah so were looking for one (1) more 14 crew. 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 SHAW: And ah if Wayde JACKLIN I'm not sure 17 Wayde's been out a fair bit of time so. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 SHAW: I'm not sure. 20 CARSON: Yeah he yeah but anyway. 21 SHAW: I will I will make those inquiries anyway 22 I'll I'll get a hold of ah Tillsonburg. 23 CARSON: Yep. 24 SHAW: And I'll check with them and I'll find out 25 what the ah after four (4) but I'll check
2811 I'll check in the ah in the Ontario 2 Regiment cause I know they have ah they 3 have an officer there who's in the OPP. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 SHAW: Um also one I was talking to Major GIFFIN 6 who was asking them what they he's the ah 7 Operations Officer for Army Headquarters 8 in Toronto. 9 CARSON: Yep. 10 SHAW: And ah the request has been up has gone up 11 from the Solicitor General it's gone up to 12 Ottawa to National Defense Headquarters. 13 CARSON: Yep. 14 SHAW: And they were just waiting for a response 15 back. 16 CARSON: That's right. 17 SHAW: And the vehicles themselves I'm almost 18 certain will come from ah Meaford. 19 CARSON: Yep. 20 SHAW: And a training would probably be done up 21 there. 22 CARSON: Yep. 23 SHAW: And I told I talked to him on the phone 24 and told him that I'm qualified I have a 25 qualified driver and I'm a qualified crew
2821 commander. 2 CARSON: Right. 3 SHAW: And their concern and I I assured him and 4 I'm I told him anything as to how they're 5 used he could he could contact you and I 6 give him your number. 7 CARSON: That's right we have we have discussed 8 that. 9 SHAW: But I said I'm sure it's just for 10 defensive like for personal protection 11 and. 12 CARSON: That's right that's right. 13 SHAW: And ah he was reassured (u/i). 14 CARSON: Well we have to look at ah markings to and 15 things like that. 16 SHAW: Yes. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 SHAW: Yep. 19 CARSON: But we we will deal with that. 20 SHAW: Yep I'll I'll see if I can't (u/i) up 21 another crew for ya. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 SHAW: And I'll get back to ya. 24 CARSON: Okay cause I suspect you know we're 25 probably look at some training the day
2831 after tomorrow. 2 SHAW: Okay. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 SHAW: Sounds good. 5 CARSON: Very good. 6 SHAW: Okay sir. 7 CARSON: Thank you right oh. 8 SHAW: Yep. 9 CARSON: Bye. 10 11 End of conversation. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And the -- as Mr. Shaw, Constable 15 Shaw said, at page 153: 16 "But I said I'm sure it's just for 17 defensive, like, for personal 18 protection," 19 and you answer, "That's right, that's right." 20 And that's what you were looking for 21 these light-armoured vehicles for? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: Then you report at 16:04 to 24 Superintendent Parkin, and that's at Tab 21? 25
2841 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 John CARSON and Tony PARKIN 4 5 September 5, 1995 6 TIME: 16:04:41 hours 7 Track 2.wav 8 9 (Phone ringing) 10 (background talking) 11 12 MALE: Ontario Provincial Police Western Region. 13 CARSON: (To background) Right right. Bill. 14 MALE: Yes. 15 CARSON: John CARSON here. 16 MALE: How are you doing? 17 CARSON: Is Superintendent PARKIN around? 18 MALE: He is he I think he's on the other line 19 but half a sec. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 (To background) What's he want. 22 MALE: (in background) I don't know. 23 CARSON: I I don't have a lot of time to discuss 24 things with him. 25 MALE: (U/I) what does he want they already lost
2851 theirs we're not going to find out how how 2 to do it the right way (u/i) right way 3 (laughs) (u/i). 4 CARSON: (To background) (U/I) APVs or whatever 5 (u/i). 6 MALE: He's on the other line he wants you to 7 stay on hold he'll be right back to you. 8 CARSON: Okay that's fine. 9 MALE: Okay. 10 CARSON: Thanks. 11 MALE: Half a second. 12 MALE: (in background) armoured personnel 13 vehicle. 14 CARSON: (To background) who did. 15 MALE: (in background) ah the Mounties. 16 CARSON: (To background) in BC. 17 MALE: (in background) Yes. 18 CARSON: (To background) well if we can get two (2) 19 drivers and two (2) you need a crew like 20 ah ah tank commander and ah. 21 MALE: (in background) we've got one of those 22 (laughing). 23 CARSON: (Background) (u/i). 24 PARKIN: Hello John. 25 CARSON: Hello.
2861 PARKIN: Sorry about that. 2 CARSON: No problem I was ah just talking here 3 anyway no problem (laugh) I haven't any 4 trouble putting in time today. 5 PARKIN: No I guess not. 6 CARSON: (Laughing) anyway ah just ah state of the 7 nation ah TSB are on their way down 8 apparently ah. 9 PARKIN: On their way down on their way down. 10 CARSON: Yeah while I apparently they have the 11 equipment installed the other day and 12 because we didn't know when this was going 13 to go they didn't leave the ah monitor 14 equipment in the office so they had to 15 come down and like literally hook it up 16 and turn the lines on basically. So 17 that's that's being addressed and it it 18 will be up hopefully and running before 19 dark. 20 PARKIN: (U/I). 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And that's referring to the video 24 cameras in the maintenance shed and the kiosk? 25 A: Yes, sir.
2871 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 2 3 CARSON: I know I I've been. 4 PARKIN: (U/I). 5 CARSON: I hear yah. 6 PARKIN: Yeah yeah yeah. 7 CARSON: Anyway ah. 8 PARKIN: Okay so lets say then that they're ah 9 they're presently hooking up monitors. 10 CARSON: Yep. 11 PARKIN: And um operational by dark hopefully. 12 CARSON: All right. 13 PARKIN: Those guys piss me off that's a whole day. 14 CARSON: Ah that's right and ah you know it ah ah 15 no sense saying what I (u/i). 16 PARKIN: Yeah. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 PARKIN: Okay. 19 CARSON: Um anyway ah I don't know if since I was 20 talking to yah the GM Diesel is not 21 prepared to participate with us. 22 PARKIN: Okay. 23 CARSON: Um they want to go through some long 24 forlorn plan of setting up protocol in 25 which you know they're not prepared t9o
2881 set up with a days notice and all that 2 kind of stuff. 3 PARKIN: (U/I) if we need it will get a Brinks 4 truck or something. 5 CARSON: Well I I've went to plan B here ah Eddie 6 ROBERTSON ah apparently has made request 7 through the through channels through the 8 Sol Gen up to NDHQ now back down to LFCA 9 Toronto and the Military just waiting for 10 the written orders to appear on their desk 11 and they are prepared to train two (2) 12 drivers and two (2) observers ah up at 13 Meaford ah so that we have people 14 qualified to drive them. We have a guy in 15 ah ah London Phil BROWN who who came to us 16 less that a year ago who's a qualified 17 driver. 18 PARKIN: Yep. 19 CARSON: And we have a guy that works the Casino 20 project who's a qualified observer tank 21 commander if you would. 22 PARKIN: Um hum. 23 CARSON: Now the guy in the Casino is gonna check 24 around he thinks there is a couple other 25 guys who who are just as qualified as they
2891 are and then we can ah ah you know send 2 them up to Meaford for a couple days 3 training and ah just just you know to 4 satisfy the Military that they know how to 5 run them. 6 PARKIN: Okay. 7 CARSON: An um once that was done they would move 8 em to the ah military base in London and 9 just park em there. If we wanted em 10 they'd wheel them in for us. 11 PARKIN: Okay. 12 CARSON: Ah the only thing they ask is that we 13 would use em in ah a defensive mode only 14 ah basically you know for a rescue. 15 PARKIN: Yeah. 16 CARSON: Which is exactly what we'd want anyway. 17 PARKIN: Yep. 18 CARSON: Ah so so I have no problem with that and 19 the other thing is that they they'd want 20 any markings relating to military covered 21 up that says OPP on it. 22 PARKIN: Yep. 23 CARSON: And and I'd want that anyway. 24 PARKIN: Yep. 25 CARSON: So I think we're all okay with that.
2901 PARKIN: Yep. 2 CARSON: So ah I'm waiting back until they get 3 their orders on whatever arrangements we 4 can make to ah facilitate any possible 5 training so that it's in the works. 6 PARKIN: Okay. 7 CARSON: So I I I you know I'm satisfied with that. 8 PARKIN: Okay. 9 CARSON: Um press release is just going out ah 10 should be probably out shortly but isn't 11 out. 12 MALE: (in background) it's on the fax. 13 CARSON: (To background) okay. 14 Mark says it's on the fax now. 15 PARKIN: Um hum. 16 CARSON: Identifying the charged people uh the 17 local news here just went off at four (4) 18 o'clock ah ah lot of ah like I bet you 19 five (5) minutes of it was all on this 20 issue. That that ah release from the ah 21 Town of Bosanquest there took up a lot of 22 it. 23 PARKIN: Yep. 24 CARSON: A lot of attention a lot of attention. 25 PARKIN: Um hum.
2911 CARSON: So anyway that's ah that's about it I see 2 we have one (1) public complaint I guess 3 on the go here from ah some First Nations 4 person who didn't like have in being asked 5 for identification at a check point and ah 6 ah they're dealing with that. 7 PARKIN: Well what authority are we using to ask 8 for ah ID? 9 CARSON: Ah I'd have to check with the Crime guys 10 but ah ah I'm not really sure right off 11 off the top of my head without trying to 12 string you a line here. 13 PARKIN: So they were stopped at a checkpoint. 14 CARSON: Yep and and checked for and what we're 15 doing is anybody who who wants to go down 16 there we we want ah we are checking them 17 and asking them you know for 18 identification and ah. 19 PARKIN: Searching their vehicles. 20 CARSON: No no ah not that I know of. 21 (To background) We're not doing vehicle 22 searches are we? 23 No. 24 No no no. 25 PARKIN: So we're controlling traffic to ensure the
2921 safety of the public given the fact that 2 we have ah an incident in where people 3 have committed criminal acts are refusing 4 to cooperate with the police. 5 CARSON: All right and if you see ah some of the 6 driving and things which will be on the 7 six (6) o'clock news I'm sure in there I 8 think I think it's only appropriate that 9 we do that. 10 PARKIN: I guess we could say we're trying to 11 direct the orderly movement of traffic. 12 CARSON: Yep and ensure the public safety. 13 PARKIN: And we can ask anybody for a driver's 14 license. 15 CARSON: That's right. 16 PARKIN: Um okay. 17 CARSON: But I know the crime guys have pursued the 18 authorities in that and and seem to be 19 pretty comfortable with that. 20 PARKIN: Okay. 21 CARSON: Buy ah you know she's gonna probably push 22 the issue and that's fine. 23 PARKIN: That's fine. 24 CARSON: Yep. 25 PARKIN: And that's on a public complaint.
2931 CARSON: Yep. 2 PARKIN: Or is somebody trying to resolve it. 3 CARSON: Well ah I I could just see from the 4 trailer Bill DENNIS is spending an awful 5 lot of time probably almost an hour with 6 this lady out there in the parking lot so 7 there has been an awful lot of discussion 8 trying to I suspect settle it but I doubt 9 if anything is going to settle it. 10 PARKIN: Alrighty. 11 CARSON: So that's about where we are ah have I 12 talked to you since the guys got back from 13 the ah yes I did. 14 PARKIN: From Bert MANNING and them. 15 CARSON: Yeah yeah okay so we haven't any more 16 discussion since that time. 17 PARKIN: Okay. 18 CARSON: It sounds like the helicopter's got 19 problems with weather is that that what 20 hear Mark. Yeah okay yeah the helicopter 21 is running into some weather problems 22 coming down from Sudbury so it's not going 23 to be here as quickly as we thought. (to 24 background) Any idea ETA. 25 MALE: (in background) A couple hours.
2941 CARSON: Okay we're still a couple hours out which 2 really doesn't do us dick for today. 3 PARKIN: Oh well I think ah you probably well you 4 probably already are anyway but ah maybe I 5 guess things could get lively again 6 tonight with people starting to roam 7 around. 8 CARSON: Yeah yeah yep well will just make sure 9 we've got enough people in the checkpoints 10 that they're taken care of and safe. 11 PARKIN: Everybody that goes through the checkpiont 12 is being stopped. 13 CARSON: Yep. 14 PARKIN: And what what are we do you know what 15 we're asking them ah like why they're 16 going down that road err. 17 CARSON: That's right just to make sure if if they 18 are residence that live there they're 19 being allowed to go. 20 PARKIN: If they if they're not. 21 CARSON: If they're not residents and have no 22 business down there they're not being 23 allowed in the event that they head into 24 the park and create more aggravation for 25 us.
2951 PARKIN: Okay. 2 CARSON: Now if they want to go to the military 3 base that's fine they can go in and turn 4 into the military base and nobody's 5 stopping them from doing that but the the 6 checkpoint is right at twenty-one (21) by 7 the military base because I don't want 8 somebody coming down the road at seventy 9 (70) mile an hour at our checkpoint. 10 PARKIN: Right. 11 CARSON: You know so we have to do it there where 12 we have some control over the vehicles. 13 PARKIN: Uhum. 14 CARSON: Because ah you know we have had that 15 double fatal there a few weeks ago our 16 guys went flying through the stop sign and 17 that kind of nonsense goes on there. 18 PARKIN: Right right. 19 CARSON: So you know given though that experience I 20 think we have to do it where we can 21 control the vehicles. 22 PARKIN: Right well of course they won't be driving 23 on Matheson. 24 CARSON: No. 25 PARKIN: (U/I).
2961 CARSON: No no no not on Matheson no no but I"d 2 suggest that if if we if we only had our 3 checkpoint down say closer to the ah to 4 the park that 5 PARKIN: (U/I) they get up a good (u/i) speed. 6 CARSON: Well that's right and and they would just 7 walk right through there on us and you 8 know our guys could be a heck of a mess if 9 they had one car stopped or something and 10 they came roaring through there. 11 PARKIN: And somebody said that they were going 12 down to visit there ah their wive who's ah 13 one of the occupiers. 14 CARSON: Uh huh. 15 PARKIN: Would we let them through. 16 CARSON: Yep but they'd have to go on to CFB 17 Ipperwash and go that direction or if they 18 wanted to park up the road and walk in 19 that's fine too. 20 PARKIN: So somebody so if twenty (20) natives come 21 along walking and they want to go down and 22 join their brothers. 23 CARSON: We're not going to stop em we have no 24 authority to stop them from doing that. 25 PARKIN: Um are they not.
2971 CARSON: If they attempt to go into the park 2 they're potentially. 3 PARKIN: Lawful assembly. 4 CARSON: While I guess once ah they try to go into 5 the park it would be. 6 PARKIN: Yeah. 7 CARSON: Because the park is officially closed by 8 the Superintendent. 9 PARKIN: Right and the more that would go in there 10 the harder it's going to be for us to get 11 out. 12 CARSON: Yeah but the the reality is that you know. 13 PARKIN: Go in the other way. 14 CARSON: That's right a hundred (100) of em go in 15 there so like you know. 16 PARKIN: We make an issue of stopping them on Army 17 Camp they'd just go in the back door. 18 CARSON: That's right so yeah there's no there's no 19 (u/i) to go in there I don't think. 20 PARKIN: Ah I agree with you but it sets up a big 21 problem for (u/i). 22 CARSON: Oh I know I know but until we can get 23 control that perimeter in the park itself 24 we're at a loss. 25 PARKIN: Ah I don't mind it so much in the daytime
2981 but at night. 2 CARSON: Yep. 3 PARKIN: Christ. 4 CARSON: I hear yah doesn't give you the warm fuzzy 5 feeling that's for sure. 6 PARKIN: (U/I). 7 CARSON: No I appreciate that cause ah ah you you 8 have you talking to Ron FOX. 9 PARKIN: Yeah I have been. 10 CARSON: Yeah yeah that blockade committee ah 11 sounds like there is some waffling going 12 on there by some individuals. 13 PARKIN: Yeah and apparently they want to go for 14 the regular ah injunction. 15 CARSON: W (u/i). 16 PARKIN: So. 17 CARSON: Are we prepared to live with that. 18 PARKIN: Depends who you listen to apparently the 19 ah the the people from ah the government 20 are saying ah MR. HALT: you know why 21 don't we treat them just like a bunch of 22 bikers. 23 CARSON: Well well they've got a point. 24 PARKIN: Yeah. 25 CARSON: Ah but I guess for trespassing that's not
2991 very you know I mean. 2 PARKIN: Sounds good. 3 CARSON: Yeah that's right that's right. 4 PARKIN: (But I (u/i). 5 CARSON: But but if they're if they're prepared for 6 that then lets just get the emergency 7 injunction and get on with life. 8 PARKIN: Yep. 9 CARSON: You know if if that's their feeling about 10 it I mean lets have the appropriate 11 support in law and and deal with it. 12 PARKIN: Yep okay. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 PARKIN: So Dales' on his way up there and. 15 CARSON: Yep. 16 PARKIN: What time are you planning on relieving? 17 CARSON: Ah we're going to do an exchange at seven 18 (7) he'll be here probably by six (6) 19 o'clock so we can do a handover and ah I 20 should be out of here shortly after seven 21 (7). There will debrief the ah dayshift 22 guys and ah if we are in good shape we'll 23 can sleep it shouldn't be a problem. 24 PARKIN: Okay um um for your briefing there with 25 Dale um he doesn't need to call me every
3001 two (2) hours. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 PARKIN: But would he please call. 4 CARSON: Yep. 5 PARKIN: Ah on something that he thinks is ah well. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 PARKIN: That somebody should be notified. 8 CARSON: Yep well okay and ah what what I do here I 9 have a little white board and I have a 10 note here on it and I put the time that I 11 target to call you. 12 PARKIN: Uhum. 13 CARSON: And I ask that he does the same that you 14 know basically ah I would suggest you know 15 by ten (10) o'clock you know you should 16 you should have a pretty good handle on 17 you know how the night is setting in. 18 PARKIN: Yep. 19 CARSON: And then hopefully he shouldn't have to 20 bother you anymore. 21 PARKIN: Yep the only thing I would ask is that ah 22 ah what time are you taking over in the 23 morning. 24 CARSON: Ah seven (7). 25 PARKIN: You're taking over at seven (7).
3011 CARSON: Yep. 2 PARKIN: Okay then ah once you're briefed by him. 3 CARSON: Yeah. 4 PARKIN: If it was ah that that he if you call this 5 office ah ah you know between eight (8) 6 and quarter after. 7 CARSON: Yep. 8 PARKIN: And ah so we we have timely information as 9 to what took place overnight. 10 CARSON: Sure. 11 PARKIN: (U/I) get any phone calls. 12 CARSON: I can appreciate that okay you. 13 PARKIN: Well you have a good night. 14 CARSON: Well thanks. 15 PARKIN: Have a cold one (u/i). 16 CARSON: Okay (laughs) I think I could use one. 17 PARKIN: Yeah. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 PARKIN: All right. 20 CARSON: Thanks. 21 PARKIN: Bye. 22 CARSON: Bye. 23 24 End of conversation. 25
3021 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And, Deputy Carson, if I could take 3 you back to an earlier point in this conversation, this 4 again is one of your updates to Superintendent Parkin? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And with respect to stopping the 7 vehicles and asking for identification, you were relying 8 on the advice given to you by your crime section that the 9 cars could be stopped? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And it was -- was it your 12 understanding, as you indicated here, that vehicles were 13 not being searched? 14 A: That's my understanding from here, 15 yes. 16 Q: And do you have any independent 17 recollection whether, on September 4th, September 5th or 18 September 6th, cars were being searched or not? 19 Did you ever give instructions to search 20 automobiles? 21 A: I don't believe I ever did. 22 Q: And we've heard some evidence that 23 vehicles were being searched. Were you aware of that at 24 the time? 25 A: Not that I recall.
3031 Q: And there's a reference... 2 A: But the issue in this phone call was 3 around asking for driver's licences. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: As opposed to be -- as opposed to a 6 search of the vehicle. 7 Q: Yeah, no, I appreciate that but -- 8 A: Oh. Okay. 9 Q: -- but he asks a question about 10 searches and -- 11 A: Oh. 12 Q: -- you said no, and -- 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: He asked you the question whether or 15 not you were searching the vehicles and you asked and 16 were told no, and you -- so you told them no. 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And then at page 169 there's a 19 reference: 20 "Depends who you listen to. Apparently 21 the people from the government are 22 saying, you know, why don't we treat 23 them just like a bunch of bikers? 24 Carson: Well, they've got a point." 25 And what did you mean by that?
3041 A: Well, if you -- if you don't take all 2 the factors into consideration, I guess that's one (1) 3 point of view you can take. 4 Q: If the people down -- the people from 5 the government were not taking all the factors into 6 account? 7 A: Yes, the people at the committee 8 meeting who were having this debate. 9 Q: But was it your view that they should 10 take into account all of the factors? 11 A: Of course. 12 Q: Including the fact that the occupiers 13 were members of a First Nation? 14 A: That certainly was a factor, yes. 15 Q: And that this land had at one time 16 been part of the traditional territory of the occupiers? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And in your view, did you have the 19 authority on September 4th, I mean September 5th or 20 September 6th to conduct a vehicle -- conduct searches of 21 vehicles entering the military base? 22 A: I believe we had the authority to 23 stop the vehicles and ask for identification of who the 24 people were going through that area, but I don't believe 25 we had the authority to search the vehicles.
3051 Q: Thank you. And -- 2 MR. MARK SANDLER: Perhaps you can 3 clarify with or without consent; that's been an issue 4 that's been raised through other witnesses. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 7 Q: Well if someone -- if someone 8 consents to a search of the vehicle, I take it what's 9 your position with respect to that? 10 A: I have no difficulty with it being 11 searched with -- with the consent of the driver of the 12 vehicle. 13 Q: And do you know -- did you give 14 instructions to Detective Sergeant Mike Wright or anyone 15 else for your officers at the checkpoints to ask for 16 consent to search vehicles? 17 A: I don't believe I gave that 18 direction. 19 Q: And did -- do you recall whether 20 anyone discussed that with you back on September -- in 21 September 4th, 5th, or 6th, 1995? 22 A: I don't recall that discussion, no. 23 Q: And frankly, there's no reference 24 that I could find in your scribe notes to that issue as 25 well.
3061 A: The -- the only time in any of this 2 that we -- did I ever have any discussion about of search 3 of vehicles, I believe was relative to the period when we 4 cordoned off the military base relating to the helicopter 5 incident. 6 Q: And that was back in 1993? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And that's with respect to vehicles 9 coming out of the Army Camp after the shooting incident? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: Then if I could take you to -- back 12 to the same Tab 21, after your discussion with Mr. Parkin 13 at page 174, at 16:17 you had a conversation with Chief - 14 - Deputy Chief Austin of the London Police Service? 15 A: Yes. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 18 19 John CARSON and D/Chief AUSTIN LPS 20 21 September 5, 1995 22 TIME: 16:16:39 hours 23 Track 1.wav 24 25 ARCHIBALD: Command Post ARCHIBALD.
3071 AUSTIN: Yeah it's ah Deputy Chief AUSTIN from 2 London is ah John CARSON there. 3 ARCHIBALD: Just a moment please he's on the other 4 line can you hold. 5 AUSTIN: Okay thanks sure. 6 (To background) if ah ah CARSON or 7 somebody tries to get a hold of you 8 tonight what's the best number they get 9 you through ah five (5) six (6) ah or 10 should we just try it through through the 11 switch board. 12 MALE: (in background) (U/I). 13 AUSTIN: Do You want him to go through 14 communications? What number should we 15 give him there? Okay so you're you're 16 tonight and then. 17 MALE: (In background) tomorrow. 18 AUSTIN: (To background) and tomorrow. 19 MALE: (In background) yep. 20 AUSTIN: (To background) okay well whoever the duty 21 officer well I'll just say you're on 22 tonight and tomorrow and Murray's on 23 Friday. 24 MALE: (to background) (U/I). 25 AUSTIN: (to background) Gilmour's on call okay.
3081 CARSON: Inspector CARSON. 2 AUSTIN: (U/I). 3 CARSON: Hello. 4 AUSTIN: John. 5 CARSON: Yes sir. 6 AUSTIN: How are you doing? 7 CARSON: Very good. 8 AUSTIN: How did you make out John? 9 CARSON: Well DND wasn't really prepared to help us 10 out too much. 11 AUSTIN: They aren't. 12 CARSON: No no they ah they said if you guys want 13 to supply the drivers that's fine they're 14 not prepared to ah to train our guys on 15 short notice at all the massive protocols 16 in place and all those things. So that's 17 fine I don't have any problem with that. 18 AUSTIN: See we've got a guy out there tomorrow 19 that's in in gonna be in training. 20 CARSON: Yeah. 21 AUSTIN: Himself. 22 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 23 AUSTIN: Um what what do you have somebody that's 24 already trained up? 25 CARSON: I've got guys who ah one guy who is ah a
3091 trained tank commander in in the militia 2 and another guys who's been with us for 3 about eight (8) months who was a driver of 4 ah of ah their armoured vehicles ah as a 5 full-time job. 6 AUSTIN: So he's already got the ah expertise in 7 that field. 8 CARSON: As I say he's been there and he's got the 9 t-shirt. 10 AUSTIN: See I I'm who were you were somebody was 11 talking to somebody out at GM on that were 12 they? 13 CARSON: Yeah I talked to ah a guy named well two 14 (2) guys ah one guy named COFFEE who was 15 the ah security guy. 16 AUSTIN: Yep. 17 CARSON: Yeah and that. 18 AUSTIN: He's I don't think he's really keyed into 19 this (u/i). 20 CARSON: Well he he went up the line and (u/i) 21 administration side there that's he came 22 back to me after his powwow. That's okay 23 that's okay we we've got we're we're we 24 have some other options available to us. 25 AUSTIN: I I would of maybe been maybe been able to
3101 facilitate that right from the top down 2 (u/i). 3 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 4 AUSTIN: You know and it might of worked a little 5 better. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 AUSTIN: But that's a done deal then is it? 8 CARSON: Well I'm not prepared to waste anymore 9 time on it quite frankly. 10 AUSTIN: No no no. 11 CARSON: Ah I just don't have that time. 12 AUSTIN: No I know what you're saying. 13 CARSON: Ah I told them if you know they needed 14 somebody to go over and sign papers then 15 ah you know and do the you know that type 16 of thing that ah you know Superintendent 17 PARKIN or Chief COLES could of handled 18 that. 19 AUSTIN: Yep okay. 20 CARSON: But ah. 21 AUSTIN: Let's go onto the next stage. 22 CARSON: Yep. 23 AUSTIN: If we need to provide assistance then can 24 can I ah what I'd like to do is get things 25 geared up from this end like in an
3111 emergency situation so that everything 2 happens as fast as it possible can and ah 3 our duty officer is were you're gonna be 4 able it's gonna be heard through tonight 5 and tomorrow night. 6 car Uh huh. 7 AUSTIN: And ah then it's going to be ah ah you 8 don't need to write all this down but AL 9 GILMOUR is going to be on Thursday night 10 then Friday. 11 CARSON: Right. 12 AUSTIN: On through for the next few days gonna be 13 Murray FALKNER. 14 CARSON: Right. 15 AUSTIN: But you can always contact the Duty 16 Officer after hours. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 AUSTIN: They're gonna be on at six (6) six (6) one 19 (1) five (5) two (2) eight (8) one (1). 20 CARSON: Five (5) two (2) eight (8) one (1). 21 AUSTIN: Now that's that's through the 22 communications center so it'll it'll be 23 able to get him quicker that way. 24 CARSON: Right. 25 AUSTIN: So it ah if need be if we need to activate
3121 something in an emergency then ah. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 AUSTIN: Do so through that number. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 AUSTIN: And what I'll do on this end I'll just 6 make sure that ah that we've got the 7 proper things in place so that if we do 8 receive a call that we're able to ah to 9 move on it quickly. 10 CARSON: Okay no problem. 11 AUSTIN: Okay. 12 CARSON: Yep. 13 AUSTIN: All right. 14 CARSON: Very good. 15 AUSTIN: The best of luck. 16 CARSON: Well I appreciate that (laughs). 17 AUSTIN: Well hopefully if you didn't get any more 18 word on how quick that as they might be 19 able to resolve the ah the um what do you 20 call it ah the document that you are going 21 to get approved. 22 CARSON: Oh the injunction. 23 AUSTIN: Injunction yeah. 24 CARSON: Well there's a lot of ah debate going on 25 at some pretty lofty levels.
3131 AUSTIN: Oh, yeah. 2 CARSON: So I don't expect an answer till well into 3 tomorrow. 4 AUSTIN: Okay. 5 CARSON: So we're just holding the fort basically 6 at at this point. 7 AUSTIN: Okay so what we'll do is we'll make sure 8 that things are greased on this end if 9 there is ah ah ah need. 10 CARSON: Yes. 11 AUSTIN: Then we'll be there. 12 CARSON: I appreciate it very much. 13 AUSTIN: Okay John. 14 CARSON: Thank you. 15 AUSTIN: Okay bye. 16 CARSON: Right bye. 17 18 End of conversation. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And when ultimately, there was a few 22 more entries in the scribe notes, but when you were on 23 duty, no light armoured vehicles attended; you did not 24 obtain any light armoured vehicles? 25 A: No, sir.
3141 Q: And you, I think, ceased to be the 2 Incident Commander September 7th or 8th. And at that 3 point in time, had any light armoured vehicles been 4 obtained? 5 A: Not during my tenure there, no. 6 Q: Not during your tenure? Then at 7 16:24, just shortly after this call from Mr. -- Deputy 8 Chief Austin, you had a conversation, it's Tab 22, and 9 it's described as an unknown male, but I believe that 10 it's Wade Lacroix. And I believe that it will start at 11 page 181 of... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Yeah, I'm -- I'm a -- but -- there's 16 a note in the book at sixteen (16) -- in the scribe 17 notes, 18 "16:30 Inspector Robinson called John 19 Carson, advised he has five (5) sets of 20 night vision glasses and they will be 21 sent down." 22 And we don't have a -- a telephone call 23 for that. Do you recall speaking to Inspector Robinson 24 at this time? 25 A: I don't recall that, that information
3151 may have come from somebody else within the command post 2 that he may have called, either into the Detachment or 3 whatever, and that information relayed to me. 4 Q: Okay. And so he had obtained -- 5 these were the night vision glasses that you -- that 6 Sergeant Korosec wanted for the ERT teams? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: The conversation actually starts -- 9 it does start on page 180. Wade Lacroix comes on, on 10 page 181. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 13 14 John CARSON and Unknown Male 15 16 September 5, 1995 17 TIME: 16:24:04 hours 18 Track 3.wav 19 20 (Dialling phone) 21 22 FEMALE: Ontario Provincial Police. 23 CARSON: Good afternoon young lady. 24 FEMALE: Hello there. 25 CARSON: How are you today?
3161 FEMALE: Fine. 2 CARSON: John CARSON here. 3 FEMALE: Yes John how are ya doin I haven't talked 4 to you for a while. 5 CARSON: (Laughs). 6 FEMALE: (laughs) Nice to hear from yah. 7 CARSON: Yeah I hear you're back from holidays. 8 FEMALE: Ah well I was off on surgery. 9 CARSON: Oh I guess that's no holiday. 10 FEMALE: No well no it I know you kind you might 11 have a little bit of a holiday but you 12 can't do anything so. 13 CARSON: Yeah right. 14 FEMALE: You don't want to do anything either. 15 CARSON: No well you got 16 FEMALE: You know. 17 CARSON: to take ad easy. 18 FEMALE: Yeah you keep getting told that but it 19 gets a little boring after awhile. 20 CARSON: Well some people aren't very good 21 listening (u/i) though. 22 FEMALE: (laughing). 23 CARSON: Well that's understandable. 24 FEMALE: Oh well. 25 CARSON: Is ah Lottie around handy.
3171 FEMALE: Yeah he is still here just a second. 2 CARSON: Okay thanks. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And is "Lottie" wade Lacroix? 6 A: No, it's Waddie. 7 Q: Waddie? 8 A: W-A-D-E, his name is Wade. 9 Q: Oh, Waddie. 10 A: And he is called Waddie. 11 Q: It says Lottie, it's Waddie. W-A-D- 12 D-I-E? Okay. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 15 16 MALE: John. 17 CARSON: Good day. 18 MALE: How are you. 19 CARSON: Very good. 20 MALE: Did you get a call or anything from the 21 Ministry side err. 22 CARSON: No. 23 MALE: Okay but Marcel got brief a half an hour 24 ago. 25 CARSON: Okay.
3181 MALE: And he got he's gonna get briefed again in 2 five (5). 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 MALE: Uh that this is not an Indian issue but an 5 MNR issue and a Provincial issue. 6 CARSON: Uh huh. 7 MALE: HARRIS is involved himself and ah quite 8 uptight about it. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 MALE: And the Ministry I guess the Solicitor 11 General I imagine is to do a press release 12 momentarily or soon saying law will be 13 upheld no matter who is involved. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 MALE: So I would say the signal is that ah we're 16 gonna end up the victim. 17 CARSON: I would suspect. 18 MALE: Ah hee's gonna call me in the morning. 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 MALE: And tell me anything else that happened. 21 CARSON: All right. 22 MALE: Cause he was talking to our Chief. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 MALE: Was impressed by the Chief. 25 CARSON: Oh good.
3191 MALE: Found that he was very upfront kind of a 2 guy my kind of individual. 3 CARSON: Good good. 4 MALE: I guess they had a confidential talk which 5 he didn't want to share with me cause he 6 told the Chief he was being that he would 7 you know I guess the Chief told him some 8 things about his concerns. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 MALE: And he's going to keep to themselves. 11 You're probable aware of what those 12 concerns are. 13 CARSON: I suspect so. (laughs). 14 MALE: Ah somehow I'm involved in that I don't 15 understand that totally but. 16 CARSON: I'm not sure. 17 MALE: I don't know what's going on on Monday. 18 CARSON: Monday. 19 MALE: Yeah there's some kind of meeting in 20 Brampton and that TRU Team Leaders and I 21 have been invited to it or something. 22 CARSON: Ah I have no idea of what you're talking 23 about. 24 MALE: Okay there's something going on I don't 25 know.
3201 CARSON: No. 2 MALE: Maybe it's looking at the TRU Program I 3 don't know. 4 CARSON: I don't know. 5 MALE: I don't know so anyway the Chief told him 6 he had concerns of some kind. 7 CARSON: Oh. 8 MALE: I don't imagine I don't know what I 9 imagine I could figure out what they are 10 but. 11 CARSON: Huh. 12 MALE: So anyhow I it sounds like the government 13 is on side. 14 CARSON: Oh good. 15 MALE: And there is supposedly some sort of press 16 release. 17 CARSON: Oh well we'll be watching the news at six 18 (6). 19 MALE: Okay. 20 CARSON: Very good. 21 MALE: All right. 22 CARSON: Anything else going on. 23 MALE: Ah no not that I can think of right now. 24 CARSON: Okay well. 25 MALE: I'll call you in the morning as soon as I
3211 talk to him after he's had his. 2 CARSON: I would appreciate that. 3 MALE: Okay. 4 CARSON: Well thanks. 5 MALE: Okay. 6 CARSON: Okay. 7 MALE: Bye. 8 CARSON: Bye. 9 10 End of Conversation. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Now, the -- Staff Sergeant Lacroix 14 says on page 182: 15 "So I'd say, the signal is that we're 16 going to end up the victim." 17 And you respond: "I would suspect". 18 And what did you mean by "I would 19 suspect"? 20 A: I think he meant -- 21 Q: Evicting. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 23 Just a minute, just a minute please. It doesn't help if 24 you speak from there. If you need to say something to 25 Mr. Millar would you mind saying -- because it just
3221 distracts us all. So if you have, you know, I think he 2 would welcome the help but not from there. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 5 Q: Evicting. So, I would say that the 6 signal is that we're going to end up evicting, I would 7 suspect? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And "the signal" being the position 10 of the -- the Solicitor General? Who did you -- 11 A: I'm not sure -- 12 Q: -- when you said -- 13 A: I'm not sure who -- who -- who that 14 is referring to. I know that Lacroix had a discussion 15 with Beaubien. I'm not sure who he's referring to in 16 that, if it's the Solicitor General specifically, it's 17 possible. 18 Q: And the concerns that Wade Lacroix 19 referred to with respect to the Chief -- Chief Coles, he 20 says at the top of page 183: 21 "And he's going to keep to themselves, 22 you're probably aware of what those 23 concerns are. 24 Carson: I suspect so." 25 And what did you suspect were the
3231 concerns? 2 A: I have no idea. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: But if I could just go back to your - 5 - your last question there in regards to "I would 6 suspect". What I'm -- what I believe we were discussing 7 here is that I believe they're going to move forward and 8 get the injunction. 9 Q: Pardon? 10 A: That they're -- that -- that -- the - 11 - the signal is that there's going to be some movement on 12 getting an injunction. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: So I just, you know, want to clarify 15 when you talk about, "we're going to end up evicting 16 them" through the injunction process. 17 Q: That's what you'd -- that's what you 18 understood back in 1995? 19 A: Exactly. 20 Q: And I take it it's fair to say that 21 your position was that you were not going to evict the 22 people from the Park without an injunction? 23 A: Right. We were not operating on the 24 Petty Trespass Act. 25 Q: And when Wade Lacroix says that:
3241 "This is not an Indian issue but an MNR 2 issue, and a provincial issue, and 3 Harris is involved himself, and quite 4 uptight about it." 5 What, if anything, did you take from that? 6 A: Well, it's just an opinion piece, 7 quite frankly. I mean, everybody's entitled to their 8 opinion, have their concerns. Obviously this is an MNR 9 issue. The MNR are the, according to any documentation 10 or information I had to that particular point, were -- 11 had colour of right, had clear title, from what we could 12 see. 13 So was it an MNR issue? Absolutely. 14 Q: And from your perspective, was it 15 also an Aboriginal People's issue? 16 A: Oh, for sure. 17 Q: And what, if anything, did you do or 18 what if -- let me ask it this way. What effect, if any, 19 did this telephone conversation with Wade Lacroix and his 20 comments about the then Premier and Mr. Beaubien have on 21 the steps that you took on September 5th or September 22 6th? 23 A: We kept proceeding in the direction 24 we had been proceeding for the two (2) days previous, and 25 continued to work towards an injunction.
3251 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Thank you. Then there's a note at 4 16:42 that you called Kent Skinner of the TRU team, we 5 don't have a transcript of that call or a .wav file. Do 6 you have any recollection of that call? 7 A: No, sir, I don't, sorry. 8 Q: And then at 16:45 I take it this is 9 the beginning of another briefing? 10 A: Yeah, it was a team briefing. 11 Q: And there's a note: 12 "Inspector -- Detective Sergeant 13 Richardson advise that warrants have been issued. 14 Entered on CPIC. Search warrant is not needed for 15 videos." 16 And that's with respect to the videos in 17 the maintenance building and the gatehouse kiosk? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: "Inspector Carson enquired about the 20 vehicle checks and Detective Sergeant 21 Richardson states that he contacted 22 legal branch and HCA covers checking 23 vehicles." 24 And is that -- did -- was that referring 25 to asking for their identifications?
3261 A: That's what I believe we're speaking 2 to, yes. 3 Q: And then: 4 "Detective Sergeant Richardson also 5 advises that they [being the occupiers, 6 I take it] have moved garbage units up 7 against gates using their own cars and 8 trees are not down." 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: There had been some -- some concern 11 that trees were down by the entrances? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Is it -- the question I'm -- are 16 trees -- are knocked down or not down; do you know? 17 A: Well, my memory would seem to go with 18 the "knocked down" version -- 19 Q: Knocked down? 20 A: As opposed to the "not", N-O-T. 21 Q: Well, perhaps we'll just take a look. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I'll ask -- I'm going to ask this
3271 question, Mr. Carson, Deputy Carson. It's a fair 2 question. 3 We had a call that you spoke to Staff 4 Sergeant Lacroix at 16:31 or 16:24 on the transcript and 5 a few minutes later you have a -- and that's call is 6 recorded and a few minutes later you have a discussion 7 with Sergeant Kent Skinner of the TRU team and that's not 8 recorded and -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- how does that come about? How did 11 that come about? 12 A: Quite frankly, I can't tell you with 13 all certainty how that come about, but one (1) of the 14 ways it could have come about, I could have gone into the 15 main part of the Detachment and -- and made the call from 16 there, is one (1) way it might have happened. 17 I guess it's not impossible that it could 18 have come in on a cell phone, but I don't recall that 19 being the case. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: I say it's possible it could have 22 come in on a cell phone, but I don't recall that being 23 the case. I -- I don't believe I was taking calls on my 24 cell phone, generally, but certainly Skinner would have 25 my cell phone number.
3281 Q: And at the meeting at 16:45, the 2 briefing, where did that meeting take place? 3 A: I believe it would take place in the 4 mobile command trailer. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Do you -- at this point in time, was 9 there an unrecorded telephone in the mobile command unit? 10 A: I -- 11 Q: I don't believe there was -- 12 A: No, I had at one (1) point asked for 13 a line to be unrecorded, but the fact of the matter is, I 14 don't believe that ever occurred. 15 Q: Okay. Now, could I take you to 16 Exhibit 427, page 444. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: There's a reference you'll see at 21 16:45. I take it that this telephone conversation, 22 excuse me, the meeting that's referred to at page 39 and 23 Trevor Richardson's reporting. And one (1) of them is: 24 "Move [something] units up against 25 gates. Use cars to do it. Trees are
3291 not down. Didn't finish job." 2 So the scribe has written that the trees 3 are not down. 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: So is it fair to say, do you -- do 6 you have any recollection of this meeting? 7 A: Not off the top of my head. But what 8 may -- what may be happening here is that earlier in the 9 day I think trees were felled across Matheson Drive and 10 this may be a discussion about a different spot. 11 Q: There was some concern from earlier 12 today we've seen, about trees being down by the main 13 entrance and I think perhaps even in the sandy parking 14 lot, but principally at the gate, the main entrance and 15 we heard something about that and read something about 16 that earlier. 17 But Detective Sergeant Richardson just 18 simply reporting that the trees are not down? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Then at the top of page 40 there's a 21 reference: 22 "Ed Vervoot, MNR advises Dan Elliott is 23 meeting again tomorrow. Seeming to be 24 moving for an injunction as soon as 25 possible."
3301 And did Ed Vervoot take part in your 2 meeting? That's at the top of page 40. 3 A: Yes, correct. I'm not -- according 4 to the handwritten notes, I don't see any notation about 5 him being there unless this information was relayed 6 through somebody. 7 Q: Through somebody else? Now we saw 8 from your conversation with Deputy Chief Elgin Austin 9 that you didn't think that the Military was being 10 helpful. 11 But you do report at page 40 that: 12 "The Military will be releasing a 13 couple of vehicles to us. Rob Shaw and 14 Phil Brown will be manning the vehicle. 15 The Military is prepared to train two 16 (2) teams. Rob Shaw contacted 17 Inspector Carson and he is to find two 18 (2) more people for another two (2) 19 person team. 20 London PD called and will help if an 21 emergency occurs. Night vision goggles 22 will be arriving as soon as possible." 23 And that's a reasonably accurate summary 24 of the two (2) calls that we listened to but -- 25 A: Yes. But I think if -- if we go back
3311 to the call with Elgin Austin, I think the -- not being 2 helpful part was probably a slip of the tongue and the -- 3 it should have been around GM Diesel was not helpful as 4 opposed to DND. 5 I know the notes indicate it's DND but -- 6 or I may have said DND, but real -- yeah, I may have said 7 DND to Elgin Austin on the phone but in fact it was as -- 8 as we know it's GM Diesel who were -- because we went on 9 talking about the bureaucratic process about releases of 10 the unit. 11 Q: So that it was -- you intended to GM 12 Diesel as opposed to DND? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And because the Military were 15 prepared to assist so long as there were trained crews to 16 man their vehicles? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And then London City Police were 19 prepared to assist in an emergency for an emergency 20 rescue? 21 A: Yes, they were. 22 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
3321 Q: And the -- I asked you about Mr. 2 Vervoot and if you go to page 444 of Exhibit 427. It 3 appears Matheson -- Math, I take it would be Matheson? 4 A: It could be, yes. 5 Q: "Dan Elliott meeting tomorrow. 6 Spokesperson identify for them. Seems 7 to be moving for an injunction as soon 8 as possible." 9 And it appears that he's there and not Ed 10 Vervoot? 11 A: That appears to be the case, yes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps that would be 16 a good time to stop for the day, Commissioner? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 That's fine, everybody is tired and everybody still has a 19 lot of work to do, so I think this would be a good time 20 to break. It's 4:30, we start at 9:00, it's a long day. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we'll start at 22 9:00 again tomorrow. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Start at 24 9:00 again tomorrow. Thank you all very much. 25
3331 (WITNESS RETIRES) 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 4 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday May 18th, at 9:00 5 a.m. 6 7 --- Upon adjourning at 4:31 p.m. 8 9 Certified Correct 10 11 12 13 14 ___________________________ 15 Carol Geehan 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25