11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 16th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 Amanda Rogers ) (np) Student-at-law 16 17 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 18 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 19 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 20 21 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 22 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 23 Colleen Johnson ) 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) 5 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 6 7 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 8 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 9 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 10 11 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 12 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 13 Jennifer McAleer ) 14 15 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 16 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 17 18 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 19 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np) Marcel Beaubien 3 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 4 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 5 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 6 7 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 8 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 9 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 10 11 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 12 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 13 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 14 Ian McGilp ) (np) 15 Annie Leeks ) (np) 16 Jennifer Gleitman ) 17 Robyn Trask ) 18 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 Opening Comments 11 5 6 SHELDON LAURIE POOLE, Sworn 7 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 13 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 147 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 152 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 162 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 216 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Colleen Johnson 255 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Sunil Mathai 283 14 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 297 15 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Donald Worme 317 16 17 JAMES LEONARD ROOT, Sworn 18 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 319 19 20 21 Certificate of Transcript 363 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1500 Document Number 2005555. Resume of 4 Sheldon Poole. 14 5 P-1501 Document Number 2005612. Handwritten 6 notebook entries of Sheldon Poole, 7 July 29 to August 23, 1995. 20 8 P-1502 Document Number 2000819. Handwritten 9 Emergency Response Team, Operational 10 Report (Poole and Mortimer) August 19, 11 1995. 32 12 P-1503 Document Number 2000824. Handwritten 13 Emergency Response Team, Operational 14 Report (Poole and Mortimer) August 20, 15 1995. 35 16 P-1504 Document Number 2000827. Handwritten 17 Emergency Response Team, Operation 18 Report (Poole and Mortimer) August 21, 19 1995. 36 20 P-1505 Document Number 2003819. Handwritten 21 notebook entries of Sheldon Poole, 22 July 20 to October 12, 1995. 38 23 P-1506 Document Number 2003819. Handwritten 24 field book notes of "Sam" Poole, 25 September 05-07, 1995. 48
91 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1507 Document Number 2005342. Affidavit of 4 Sheldon Poole sworn August 04, 1998, 5 including Exhibits to Affidavit A, B, 6 and C, August 04, 1998. 80 7 P-1508 Document Number 2003818. Statement of 8 Sheldon Poole with handwritten original 9 (undated). 86 10 P-1509 Document Number 2000006. Typed statement 11 and handwritten OPP interview report of 12 Sheldon Poole, September 07, 1995. 88 13 P-1510 Document Number 1001940. Handwritten 14 notes and diagram attributed to S. 15 Poole, September 06-14, 1995. 123 16 P-1511 Document Number 1000386. Statement of 17 Constable Poole, interviewed by SIU's 18 Ed Wilson, December 19, 1995. 133 19 P-1512 Document Number 2005541. Resume of James 20 Leonard Root 320 21 P-1513 Document Number 2005599. Handwritten 22 notes of James Root, February 26, 1995 324 23 P-1514 Document Number 2005598. Handwritten 24 notes of James Root, July 29-August 23, 25 1995. 326
101 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1515 Document Number 2003845. Handwritten 4 OPP Interview Report by P/C J.L. Root, 5 July 30, 1995. 330 6 P-1516 Document Number 2000834. Handwritten 7 OPP Interview Report by P/C J.L. Root, 8 August 09, 1995. 332 9 P-1517 Document Number 2005435. Notebook 10 entries of P/C J.L. Root, August 30- 11 September 06, 1995. 337 12 P-1518 Document Number 1000859. Handwritten 13 notebook entries of James Root, 14 September 06, 1995. 347 15 P-1519 Transcript of Region 01, James Root - 16 Lima 1 - Lima 2, September 06, 1995, 17 20:29 hrs, Chatham Communications Centre, 18 Logger Tape number 146, Track 12, Disc 19 12 of 20 356 20 21 22 23 24 25
111 --- Upon commencing at 9:03 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. Commissioner, before we get to the next 10 witness, we will be calling, of course, Officer Sheldon 11 Poole as our next witness, however, prior to asking him 12 to take the witness stand, I simply want to indicate that 13 the Rules of Practice and Procedure of this Inquiry allow 14 for the protection of one's identity and we are making an 15 application pursuant to Section 42 of those rules that on 16 the -- and at the request of Officer Poole's counsel to 17 maintain his identity. 18 And let me just read from Section 42 which 19 reads in part that: 20 "Witnesses may apply to the 21 Commissioner for measures aimed at 22 protecting his identity for a 23 compelling reason as determined in the 24 sole discretion of the Commissioner." 25 And of course, I highlight that last part
121 to indicate that obviously it is in your sole discretion, 2 sir. 3 The compelling reason proffered by the 4 Witness and it is one that I support entirely, 5 Commissioner, is that Officer Poole is presently involved 6 in ongoing investigations of a sensitive nature such that 7 to publicly reveal his likeness through the Inquiry's 8 webcast could potentially compromise his ability to 9 perform his ongoing duties. And accordingly we would ask 10 that you grant him pursuant to that section the status of 11 confidentiality. 12 In anticipation of your ruling, sir, we 13 have made arrangements with the people that supply the 14 technical service here that his likeness, that is his 15 image, would then be obscured on the webcast through 16 digitization. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's only 18 the likeness, it's not the identity, right? The 19 identity -- 20 MR. DONALD WORME: That's correct, 21 Commissioner, so it is somewhat different than what is 22 anticipated or contemplated in the rule itself. We are 23 not asking that his name be -- be not recorded but simply 24 his image. 25 I think it's also important, Commissioner,
131 that the media and perhaps others that might be inclined 2 to do so that they would refrain from taking pictures of 3 the Witness either as he's entering or as he's leaving 4 the -- the Inquiry, or at any other time for that matter. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much, Mr. Worme. 7 I'm prepared to grant that application and 8 give you that order and ask or direct the media or 9 anybody not to take any photographic or visual 10 reproductions of the Witness either during his testimony 11 or upon his entering or leaving the site of the Inquiry 12 and with that I think we can call him now. 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you very much, 14 Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: We'd ask Officer Poole 17 to take the stand please. 18 19 SHELDON LAURIE POOLE, Sworn 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 22 morning. 23 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Commissioner. 24 25 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME:
141 Q: Good morning, Officer Poole. Sir, 2 you were good enough to provide us with a copy of your 3 curriculum vitae. It has been marked as Inquiry Document 4 2005555 and you will find that at Tab 1 of the brief of 5 documents in front of you. And I wonder if you just 6 might turn to that at this point in time, sir. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: I take it that is your curriculum 11 vitae? 12 A: Yes, it is, sir. 13 Q: Perhaps we can have that marked as 14 the first exhibit this morning? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1500, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1500: Document Number 2005555. 18 Resume of Sheldon Poole. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: Officer Poole, I also understand you 22 go by the nickname 'Sam'? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: All right. And let me just turn then 25 to your curriculum vitae. It would indicate that you had
151 commenced with the Ontario Provincial Police in 1990, 2 initially stationed at the Sombra Detachment? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: And in September of '95 you were 5 stationed at the Petrolia Detachment? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And we understand that that was as a 8 result of an amalgamation of detachments in favour of a 9 more decentralized detachment system that occurred in and 10 around that time? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: All right. I wonder if you just 13 might tell us, sir, I understand that you had some 14 experience in terms of policing First Nations 15 communities, in terms of working with First Nations 16 officers? 17 A: I -- I have had some experience. I 18 was trained by two (2) officers primarily; one (1) of the 19 them was John Flesher, the other was Phil George. 20 Phil George is a First Nations -- or First 21 Nation background. He worked extensively around Walpole 22 Island, so in the course of my duties of working with 23 Constable George, we did a lot of work on Walpole Island 24 and he introduced me to a lot of people. 25 And that eventually became one of the
161 zones that I was responsible for patrolling. 2 Q: And in terms of the policing work 3 that you were doing in that particular community of 4 Walpole Island, I take it that would be general law 5 enforcement duties? 6 A: That was just general response to 7 calls for service or say, just a general patrol. 8 Q: And during that course of general 9 patrol and that policing service, I take it you would 10 have met the people from that community and developed 11 ongoing relationships? 12 A: Yeah absolutely. I mean, one of the 13 first things Phil taught me is we usually go for 14 breakfast at the arena and go for -- go for coffee with 15 the Walpole Island police officers as well. 16 Q: Sir, in 1995 you became a member of 17 the Number 1 District ERT, that is Emergency Response 18 Team? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And might you just tell us about, 21 briefly if you would, about the background training that 22 facilitated your joining that -- that team. 23 A: There's a total of six (6) weeks of 24 training and it's broken down into several components. 25 Two (2) weeks is based on search and
171 rescue; just becoming familiar with a compass and 2 operating in the bush environment in remote locations 3 possibly. 4 Two (2) weeks were spent on containment 5 which would be -- and it's referred to as invisible 6 deployment. So if there's a barricaded suspect we would 7 be able to maintain -- maintain the security of the 8 perimeter. 9 There's a -- an additional week was spent 10 on VIP security. And lastly, there's a week spent on 11 Public Order Unit training. 12 Q: All right. Thank you, sir. And I 13 note from your curriculum vitae that you have had 14 significant training since that period of time, since 15 1995. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Including Native Awareness training 18 in May of 1996 at Centralia. 19 A: Yes. There was also -- I think that 20 was a typo. I think it was actually put on at the 21 Petrolia Detachment. 22 Q: I see. 23 A: I think that was Inspector Potts. 24 Q: Your present rank is Detective 25 Constable.
181 A: That's correct. 2 Q: All right. Let's go back to 1995 if 3 we would, sir. I wonder if you might tell us what 4 generally your awareness was in September of 1995 to the 5 issues surrounding First Nations people and the 6 occupation of the Army Base. 7 A: Well I have to confess I -- I didn't 8 know very much at all. 9 Q: Okay. Were you aware for example 10 that there was an occupation that would have commenced at 11 the Army Base in -- some time in 1993? 12 A: I -- I was aware that that had taken 13 place. I didn't know the background or the nature of it. 14 Q: Had you any occasion to attend at or 15 be at the Military Base prior to 1995? 16 A: I believe I was there once to play a 17 baseball game with some MP's that were stationed there. 18 Q: All right. Were you aware of any 19 issues as between the MP's, that is the Military Police 20 at the Army Base and people that might have been in -- in 21 occupation of at least part of that Base? 22 A: I -- I was aware that there was 23 ongoing conflict between Military personnel and people 24 that wanted the land back. 25 Q: All right. I take it from that, you
191 weren't aware of the specifics of what that conflict 2 might be? 3 A: No. No. 4 Q: All right. Let's turn then, sir, to 5 the summer of 1995. And I understand that you were 6 detailed to a summer posting at the Grand Bend 7 Detachment? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: As part of that posting, did that 10 include the policing of the Ipperwash area, either the 11 Army Base area or any -- any areas east of that? 12 A: No. It's -- generally it didn't 13 extend that far. It would go -- at the most it would be 14 down into the -- down into the area of Port Franks. 15 Q: I see. 16 A: That was kind of the cutoff point. 17 Q: On July 29th, sir, while on parole do 18 you -- patrol, pardon me, do you have a recollection of 19 being dispatched to the Army Camp in response to a 20 situation between the Military Police or a Military 21 vehicle and civilians? 22 A: I believe there is a -- there is a 23 report of a vehicle being rammed, but -- 24 Q: Okay. Can I ask you to turn to Tab 3 25 of the brief of documents in front of you, sir. There a
201 number of pages of photocopied notes; they bear Inquiry 2 Document Number 2005612. 3 Do you recognize those notes, firstly, 4 sir? 5 A: Yes. That's my handwriting. 6 Q: May I ask, Commissioner, that this be 7 marked as the next exhibit, please? That would be 1501. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1501, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1501: Document Number 2005612. 11 Handwritten notebook entries 12 of Sheldon Poole, July 29 to 13 August 23, 1995. 14 15 THE WITNESS: If I may interrupt just for 16 a second? 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Would it be possible if I could refer 21 also to my notebook, just it's -- the clarity might be a 22 little better in my notebook. 23 Q: You have the actual notebooks in 24 front of you and these are -- this is a real and true 25 copy of those notes?
211 A: It is, sir. 2 Q: If you would go ahead and refer to 3 it, but I would simply caution you that you'll note that 4 some of your notes are redacted to leave out the names of 5 individuals that are unrelated to the -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- mandate of the Inquiry. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right, thank you. And you see, 10 sir, at page 30 of Exhibit 1501, commencing at the middle 11 of the page, Saturday July 29th, 1995. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And I take it those first two (2) 16 pages are unrelated to what you come here to tell us 17 about today; that is your pages 30 and 31? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: I ask you to turn to the top of page 20 32. There's an entry at 13:50 hours. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: I guess, let me firstly ask you, and 25 just if you would confirm, that at that point in time you
221 were a member of the Emergency Response Team? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And that entry at 13:50 hours, 4 perhaps you can just read that for us, would you? 5 A: "I was dispatched to the Army 6 Camp..." And I put "re." which is the short form of 7 "regard to" in my mind, 8 "...MP being rammed. Stayed on the 9 scene until Sergeant Collingham advised 10 to Grand Bend." 11 Q: And the -- 12 A: Basically that means we did -- we 13 didn't do anything. 14 Q: All right. And was that particular 15 dispatch, was that an Emergency Response Team callout? 16 A: I don't believe it was. 17 Q: All right. Can you just continue on 18 with the next entry, sir? 19 A: It's 14:35. 20 "I was clear." 21 And my next notation is: 22 "Secured ERT equipment and proceeded to 23 Forest Detachment re. Ipperwash." 24 Q: And do you have any -- any present 25 recollection as to what that was about, the --
231 A: No. 2 Q: -- securing of ERT equipment? 3 A: No. We didn't take any action. 4 The next -- the next notation was, I did - 5 - was an ERT call, but it was down in the area of 6 Windsor, it was in Tecumseh. And it was a containment 7 exercise for someone that had fired a gun at officers. 8 Q: And that didn't have anything to do 9 with the -- the occupation of the Army Camp? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right, thank you. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: In reviewing your notes, sir, I note 16 at the end of that there is an entry at just before 06:00 17 hours: 18 "Patrol area at Ipperwash. All quiet." 19 I take it from that, that there was 20 nothing remarkable to report on that day? 21 A: I would agree with that, sir. 22 Q: Your next entry is Sunday, July 30th 23 of 1995. Can you see the entry at 14:40 hours? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
241 A: Sorry, what was the time reference? 2 Q: 14:40. It's at the bottom of your 3 page 32. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I wonder if you could just tell us 6 about that. I note the entry at 12:00 hours; you were 7 advised to attend Ipperwash re. patrols. 8 A: Basically just a -- my comment is 9 that I relieved P/C King, a member now retired, and the 10 heading -- I'm not sure what the -- what the heading is 11 on that, but it's "CFB Ipperwash employ", I believe. 12 And my next notation is: 13 "Patrolled Ipperwash. No problems 14 encountered." 15 And then I was relieved by another officer 16 at 19:40. 17 Q: All right. You're looking at the top 18 of -- of your page 33, yes? 19 A: That's -- that's correct. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: I think in the -- in the police 22 language I think it's more of showing the flag or showing 23 the doors, just to drive in the area. 24 Q: If you look at your entry for July 25 31st; it's on that same page, Officer Poole. It would
251 appear that you were now reporting to Pinery Park. 2 Do you see the entry at 08:00 hours: 3 "On duty. Reported to Pinery Park?" 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then I wonder if you just might 6 assist me with reading that next entry? 7 A: It's: 8 "8:00 a.m. on-duty. Reported to Pinery 9 Park Visitor's Centre re: possible 10 problems related to Ipperwash land 11 possession. Resided at Centre and 12 17:00 off-duty." 13 And what that tells me is we just remained 14 at the Visitor's Centre but nothing happened. 15 Q: And in terms of the possible problem 16 related to Ipperwash land possession is there anything 17 that you can tell us about today that you can recall? 18 A: It -- it would be guesswork, sir. At 19 that point I'm -- there obviously -- there was some 20 information that indicated something was going to happen 21 there but I have no recollection of what it was. 22 Q: Can you tell us whether this or your 23 previous attendances were ERT callouts? 24 A: Normally if it was an ERT callout I 25 would notate that in my notebook.
261 Q: And you don't have any such notation? 2 A: No, I -- I believe it was just -- it 3 was regular uniform. There'd be no -- there'd be no 4 purpose, you know, to change uniforms. 5 Q: All right. Thank you. In the middle 6 of the page, sir, you then have entries for Tuesday, 7 August 1st of 1995. It would appear that at 04:00 hours 8 perhaps you were involved in the investigation of a fatal 9 -- fatal motor vehicle accident at Army Camp and Matheson 10 Drive? 11 A: I don't know I would say I was 12 involved in the -- the investigation per se; I was -- I 13 was certainly present. I observed that a vehicle had 14 went through a "T" intersection resulting in the -- in a 15 fatality there. And I remember that we -- it was -- it 16 was a single vehicle and a lot of people started showing 17 up wanting to -- to view the deceased and that wasn't an 18 issue at this. 19 I mean, there -- there wasn't -- there 20 wasn't a problem with having people, First Nations 21 people, look at the body and the scene; that's -- that's 22 a pretty normal request, or it's a pretty normal thing 23 when someone dies from my own experience anyways in the 24 way I was taught. 25
271 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And just in going with your -- with 4 your notes, sir, it looks like that on August the 2nd you 5 continued with general patrols in the Ipperwash area with 6 Provincial Constable Zacher? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Sir, between that time and your next 9 entry on August the 10th did you have any involvement in 10 any matters related to the Ipperwash, either Army Camp or 11 the Provincial Park, or policing any of that area? 12 A: No, I did not. 13 Q: And may I ask you then to turn to 14 your entry at your page 43. You'll see Thursday, August 15 10th of 1995, towards the bottom of the page. 16 Are you with me there? 17 A: Yes, I am. 18 Q: And I note your entry at 15:00 hours 19 that you came on duty and were patrolling with Provincial 20 Constable Gransden? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And I take it from the balance of 23 those entries that there is again nothing remarkable in 24 terms of anything that you would have observed or 25 otherwise, during your course of duty on that date?
281 A: No, there is a couple of unrelated 2 occurrences. 3 Q: And might I also suggest to you, sir, 4 that your entry on Friday, August 11th, 1995 -- you see 5 just over on your page 44 there's an entry at 21:22 6 hours, where you record that: 7 "Approximately ten (10) to twelve (12) 8 Natives were in the front lobby upset 9 that a party had been arrested. 10 Requesting party's name but they 11 wouldn't spell it." 12 Do you see that? 13 A: Yes. I'm -- I'm reading along with 14 you. 15 Q: And do you have a recollection of 16 that particular event you have recorded there? 17 A: Yeah, I -- I have a basic 18 recollection. I know that I was -- I was requested to 19 attend and when I attended it, it had basically been 20 resolved. I -- I learned from another officer what the 21 issue -- what the issue was; that somebody had been 22 released on Kettle Point and they were suppose to have 23 been released on Stoney Point I believe. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And apparently that issue was
291 resolved. 2 Q: As a -- did that first of all have 3 anything to do with the Ipperwash matter? 4 A: Not that I'm aware of. 5 Q: All right. And just from your -- 6 your perspective, you've indicated that there was some 7 issue about where a person was released on that occasion, 8 did you take it from that that there was any kind of 9 issue as between those two (2) communities? 10 A: I guess it was a -- it was a little 11 more of an awareness at that point that, you know, there 12 was some potential conflict between the two (2) 13 communities. 14 Q: And beyond that, did you have any 15 specifics or can you tell us anymore? 16 A: No. I don't recall any specifics on 17 that. 18 Q: As I review your notes onward, 19 Officer Poole, I note that and perhaps you can confirm 20 this for me that until the 19th of August, from where we 21 left off, again there was nothing remarkable in relation 22 to the Ipperwash matter that we're looking at. 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Can I ask you to turn then to your 25 page 46, commencing in the middle of the page, Saturday,
301 August the 19th. There's an entry at 11:00 hours: 2 "Reported to Pinery Park, reference 3 Ipperwash." 4 Do you see that? 5 A: Yes, I do. I doubled up with 6 Constable Mortimer and conducted general patrols. 7 Q: Is there anything on your notation, 8 sir, that would indicate that this was an ERT callout? 9 A: No. It was just regular patrol. 10 Q: And again as I go through your notes, 11 I -- I would -- it would appear to me at least and I'd 12 ask you to confirm that, that your regular patrol from 13 the 19th to the 22nd in the Ipperwash area, they all 14 occurred with Provincial Constable Mortimer. 15 A: That's correct. We were partnered 16 up. I say -- Constable Mortimer is also -- or was an ERT 17 member at that point but uniforms were being worn the 18 same. It was just -- it was a regular working blue 19 uniform. 20 Q: All right. And it's your evidence 21 that this was not an ERT patrol, is that -- is that what 22 I understand, during this period of time? 23 A: Yeah. I think -- I think it was just 24 a matter of utilizing some more bodies to patrol the 25 area.
311 Q: All right. Let me ask you to turn to 2 the document at Tab Number 6, if you would please, 3 Officer Poole. It's Inquiry Document 2000819. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Are you with me on that, sir? 8 A: Yes, I am. 9 Q: We understand that this was a 10 document that was created by another officer in relation 11 to a reporting structure or protocol for the Ipperwash 12 event. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And in fact it's titled, 15 Emergency Response Team Operational Report, and you see 16 your name on that? 17 A: I do so. 18 Q: It's dated the 19th of August, 1995 19 and it indicates the shift -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- as well your attendance with 22 Officer Mortimer for Number 1 District. 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: I'm going to ask that this be made 25 the next exhibit, Commissioner. But I simply --
321 THE REGISTRAR: P-1502, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1502: Document Number 2000819. 4 Handwritten Emergency 5 Response Team, Operational 6 Report (Poole and Mortimer) 7 August 19, 1995. 8 9 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. I simply 10 want to point out as well that there is an entry there of 11 a name on the third line and I'd ask that that name be 12 redacted in the -- in the exhibit please. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: And just in looking at that, sir, 16 that would appear to indicate at least on the 19th, that 17 you were filing Emergency Response Team Operational 18 Reports. 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And would that suggest to people who 21 would look at that compared to your notes that the 22 patrols you were doing on the 19th was in fact an ERT 23 callout? 24 A: I'm not sure if that would reflect it 25 was an actual ERT callout. I would suggest it wouldn't
331 be ERT members that were conducting the patrol. 2 Q: All right, thank you. And that as 3 part of that patrol you would simply be using this forms 4 in relation to the Ipperwash event? 5 A: That would be my take on it, yes. 6 Q: All right, thank you. Just with 7 respect to the -- the complaint or the details of the 8 incident that you have list there, it would appear that 9 there was a prowler complaint that was provided? 10 A: Yes. It was -- it was an elderly 11 female had called in, and in my notes I put down I had 12 checked area, it was all quiet. There was no sign of any 13 intrusions and when I had asked the female if she had 14 actually seen anyone, the response was no. 15 So I put it down that it was unfounded. 16 Is basically -- it was, you know, maybe it could have 17 been a windy night and the door banged a little bit and 18 that's not an uncommon occurrence. 19 Q: And just beyond that, the entry 20 reads: 21 "Party has made numerous calls in the 22 past." 23 And what does that tell us? 24 A: Well, maybe she's a little bit 25 skittish. Maybe she's living on her own, so it's more of
341 a PR thing. you go and you check and make sure 2 everything's okay and read her -- you know, reassure the 3 complainant that we've checked her house, the locks are 4 all intact, no one's tried to gain entry and it's okay. 5 Q: Thank you, officer. May I ask you to 6 turn to the next tab -- next document, please, at Tab 7. 7 It's Inquiry Document 2000824. 8 And again, this is an Emergency Response 9 Team operational report for the 20th of August, 1995 -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- again indicating your shift. 12 And your name is there; do you see that? 13 A: Yes, I do. 14 Q: Again, it coincides with the entries 15 that you've made in your notebook that we've already 16 reviewed. At the end of the day, you -- you've indicated 17 that: 18 "All was quiet." 19 First of all, I should ask you, is this 20 your handwriting? 21 A: No, that's not my handwriting. 22 Q: But it is nonetheless consistent with 23 the notations that you've made in your own notebook that 24 "all was quiet", I think it reads? 25 A: That's consistent.
351 Q: And when you say, "all quiet" it 2 reads "on Ipperwash reserve", what does that mean? 3 A: Well, it's -- it's not my writing on 4 there. 5 Q: All right, fair enough. Thank you. 6 I'll ask that that be made the next exhibit, please. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1503, Your Honour. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1503: Document Number 2000824. 11 Handwritten Emergency 12 Response Team, Operational 13 Report (Poole and Mortimer) 14 August 20, 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: And lastly, just on this line, 18 officer, if you can turn to the next document at that Tab 19 number 8. It's Inquiry Document 2000827, again, an 20 Emergency Response Team operational report for the 21st 21 of August, 1995; again, yourself and Officer Mortimer. 22 A: Yes. My notation is that patrols 23 were conducted in the Ipperwash Provincial Park primarily 24 and there were no incidents. 25 It's -- I think the only thing we ever saw
361 was deer. 2 Q: And again, that's consistent with the 3 entries in your notebook? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And I'd ask that be made the next 6 exhibit then, please. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1504, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1504: Document Number 2000827. 10 Handwritten Emergency 11 Response Team, Operation 12 Report (Poole and Mortimer) 13 August 21, 1995. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: I wonder if you would just tell us 17 generally, sir, what your understanding of the role was, 18 as you're doing these patrols as not necessary as -- as 19 an ERT callout, but simply doing the patrols? 20 What was your understanding as to what was 21 going on? 22 A: Well, I -- I think it was just that, 23 sir. It was to patrol and as -- in the police language 24 to -- to show the doors or to show a presence. 25
371 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Between that -- that time and the 4th 4 of September, sir, did you have any other involvement, 5 significant or otherwise, in the -- the Ipperwash matter 6 or Ipperwash event? 7 A: No, I don't believe so. 8 Q: Can I ask you to turn back to the 9 document at Tab number 2 that we've already marked as 10 Exhibit 1500. There's an entry towards the middle of the 11 page, Monday September the 4th of 1995. 12 Sorry, just excuse me a moment. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Oh, pardon me, I stand corrected. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: These notes, sir. Let me just take 21 you back to the notes to be -- from the beginning of Tab 22 Number 2 if we would please? 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: It's Inquiry Document 2003819. 25 A: Yes, I'm there.
381 Q: And I'm going to ask that this 2 package in its entirety be made an exhibit. And I see 3 what my error was, Commissioner, is that some of these 4 notes are reproduced at various tabs under different 5 Inquiry Document numbers. So what I would ask is that 6 the documents at Tab Number 2 be made the next exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1505, Your Honour. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1505: Document Number 2003819. 11 Handwritten notebook entries 12 of Sheldon Poole, July 20 to 13 October 12, 1995. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: And if I could ask you then to turn 17 into what would be the fifteenth page in and it looks 18 like there is a number 61 at the bottom. 19 And am I correct in that first of all, 20 sir? 21 A: Sorry, what page am I referring to? 22 Q: We're looking at the documents at Tab 23 Number 2 -- 24 A: Yes? 25 Q: -- which is your notebook entry for
391 September the 4th of 1995. And I believe if you look at 2 your own notes -- 3 A: You said September the 4th? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Tab Number 2 is July the 20th in 6 mine. 7 Q: That -- that's correct. The first 8 page would -- would be July the 20th, right? 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: And if you look just to the bottom 11 and I'm looking at the number of the actual -- of your 12 actual notebook there's a number 24 there? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that coincides with your 15 notebook? 16 A: It does. 17 Q: If I can ask you then to turn to page 18 61 of your notebook? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you should have an entry there, 21 Monday, September the 4th of 1995? 22 A: I do. 23 Q: Which would coincide with the entry 24 fifteen (15) pages in of the document at Tab Number 2, or 25 the copies at Tab 2.
401 A: Okay. 2 Q: All right. At 14:00 hours on that 3 date it would appear that you came on-duty, sir? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: All right. I wonder if you might 6 just proceed then to tell us what occurred during the 7 course of that particular shift? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: I have it down: 12 "At 14:00 on duty. Shift preparation. 13 Worked on an occurrence [and at] 15:30 14 hours proceeded to Ipperwash." 15 Q: Yes, continue. 16 A: It was on this date I believe that 17 the -- the Park was initially occupied. The -- Ipperwash 18 Provincial Park at that time was -- was then occupied or 19 it was -- it was in the process of being occupied. 20 I can just carry on and run through that 21 if you like? 22 Q: Yes, if you would, please? 23 A: There was some advance information 24 that after the long weekend was completed that First 25 Nations people would be coming in to that Park and as a
411 result members from the Number 1 -- it was then the 2 Number 1 ERT team also attended in uniform, blue uniform. 3 I don't recall that there was any clear 4 plan laid out as to what we were to do. And what took 5 place was we basically stood in the -- in a parking lot 6 area and things started to escalate. There was -- there 7 was some First Nations people there and it started out 8 with some -- some verbal taunts, and I can't recall the 9 exact nature. I can -- I think I can characterize it 10 generally by saying they weren't -- it wasn't overtly 11 (sic) friendly. 12 That was followed by some flares being 13 thrown in. Not what I would consider to be a life- 14 threatening issue, it was just more of an escalation in 15 my mind. 16 There was some more taunting. There was, 17 you know, some requests basically to get the hell out of 18 there; that was the nature of the comments. 19 The next step in that cycle that stands 20 out in my mind and I don't know who it was, but someone 21 walked through the area that we were standing, basically 22 doing nothing. I don't know -- again, I don't know what 23 the purpose was but the way I would describe this contact 24 was much in the way you might see two (2) young men 25 bumping shoulders when they were looking to start a
421 fight. 2 No one was hurt from this contact but the 3 person that walked through the -- the police officers in 4 my mind, deliberately just put his shoulder a little bit 5 to make contact. 6 And in my mind I was starting to form this 7 opinion that this is going to turn into a fight here. 8 The way it's going I can see the gradual escalation. 9 The one (1) final factor I think had -- 10 that just made it abundantly clear that if we didn't 11 leave, there was just going to be an all -- an all out 12 street fight basically, was Judas George, I believe his 13 proper name is Roderick, but I think everyone calls him 14 Judas, he came down, he had like a -- like a handmade 15 cane or a large walking stick and basically took a two- 16 handed baseball swing to the rear window of one of the 17 cruisers and directed us to get the hell out of there. 18 I think it was -- it was abundantly clear 19 at that point in my mind that if we stayed there was 20 going to be a major fight take place. The decision was 21 made -- the officer in charge at that point was Stan 22 Korosec, a Sergeant, the decision was -- excuse me, the 23 decision was made to leave at that point. You know, 24 there was probably some concerns that the light was -- 25 was fading. There was no one looking outwards I suppose
431 into some of the darker spots surrounding the area. 2 For whatever reason, the decision was made 3 for us to leave. And we left without any incident after 4 that other than a window being busted. 5 Q: All right. Let me just ask you some 6 -- some questions and followup to that narrative you've 7 just provided us, Officer Poole. 8 You've indicated that there was some 9 advance information that, following the long weekend 10 there -- there would be First Nations people moving into 11 the Park. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And do you know what the nature of 14 that advance information was or where that came from? 15 A: No I don't know. 16 Q: Do you recall who would have told 17 you? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: Did you understand this, your 20 attendance that is, at the Provincial Park has an ERT 21 callout? 22 I think you said, certainly the plan was, 23 such that it was, that Number 1 ERT would attend in 24 uniform. 25 A: Yeah. The -- the thing that I found
441 lacking -- in a -- in a normal ERT callout or a team 2 callout there's -- your objectives are clearly spelled 3 out; that's what's called a SMEAC. It's -- it's borrowed 4 from the Military. An acronym for a situation, your 5 mission, execution, your action plan, your command and 6 control basically; how everything's going to flow. 7 Well, there -- there wasn't any of that. 8 There was no clear plan in my mind which I think is, you 9 know, it was abundantly clear from what happened that 10 there was no plan, so we left. 11 Q: Typically, how would that plan be 12 communicated to other officers? 13 A: You would have -- you would sit down 14 and have a -- a formal briefing. So if I was to execute 15 a search warrant, everyone that was involved in that 16 search warrant would be sat down, their roles would be 17 spelled out, they would be given an overall view of the 18 plan and what would be accomplished or a contingency plan 19 so to speak of -- of what if this happens well then look 20 at this. 21 And in any plan you have to have an 22 objective. I don't think that we had that. I'm not 23 trying to blame Sergeant Korosec for that but in all 24 fairness I don't think there was a cohesive plan at that 25 point, what we were suppose to do other than standing
451 there. Maybe our mere presence was suppose to deter 2 someone from coming in. 3 Q: Showing the doors I think as you put 4 it earlier? 5 A: That -- I guess that would be, yeah, 6 showing the door in person or mirror, the first level in 7 the use of force option is officer presence. Well, that 8 obviously was not going to work in this situation and I 9 don't know that it was thought through clearly if -- if 10 it did escalate. 11 Q: Aside from the First Nations people 12 that came into take occupation of the Park, were there 13 other users of the Park still within the -- within the 14 boundaries, to your knowledge. 15 A: I don't -- I don't recall anyone else 16 being in the Park at that time. There was no -- there 17 was no safety concerns for anyone else in that Park. 18 Q: Thank you. In terms of the numbers 19 of individuals, first of all, can you tell us how many 20 officers you might have been there in attendance with and 21 further, how many First Nations people that would have 22 been involved in this event you described? 23 A: That would be guesswork on my part, 24 sir. 25 Q: All right.
461 A: I think it was -- it was a fairly 2 even balance of people. 3 Q: All right. And I'd ask you not to 4 guess at that. 5 A: No. 6 Q: But it -- but, rather, I'm going to 7 ask you take a look at your notes and you'll see again, 8 back to the entry of -- of September the 4th, 1995, the 9 entry at 20:00 hours. 10 "Paged re. ERT callout at Ipperwash." 11 Do you see that? 12 A: I do see that. 13 Q: And just following that, you have a 14 notation and perhaps you can read that for us and tell us 15 what that means? 16 A: It's -- the notation is: 17 "See field book for notes." 18 Maybe I could just explain -- 19 Q: Would you, please? 20 A: -- explain that. On a -- in any 21 major ERT detail, normally the report is filed by the 22 Sergeant; is what's called a team report. So you would 23 take basic -- basic notes but the team leader would put 24 in a detailed report as to what had happened. 25 Q: And that wouldn't be your
471 responsibility in this instance? I think you've 2 indicated the team leader was Sergeant Korosec. 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: If I can ask you to refer to the 5 document at Tab 11 of the brief in front of you, officer. 6 It's Inquiry Document 2003819. There's some three (3) 7 pages in total and I should simply indicate to you and to 8 My Friends as well that it would appear that this is 9 copied front to back. 10 Am I right in that? 11 A: Yeah, I believe so. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Yes, that is accurate. 16 Q: And when it says "refer to field 17 notes", is this the -- your entire field notes for that 18 period of time that's indicated from the 4th to the 6th 19 of September 1995? 20 A: It is. 21 Q: And I note that you are -- you have a 22 copy of a notebook in front of you -- 23 A: I do. 24 Q: -- an actual notebook. Is that one 25 and the same as the copies that we have in front of us?
481 A: It is. 2 Q: And may I ask that that be marked the 3 next exhibit, please, that is, the documents at Tab 11. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1506, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1506: Document number 2003819. 7 Handwritten field book notes 8 of "Sam" Poole, September 05- 9 07, 1995. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: Can you tell us, sir, why you would 13 maintain a -- a separate field book notebook, as opposed 14 to the actual notebooks that you have? 15 A: Sometimes by the -- the nature of 16 that occurrence, you're not always going to have time to 17 do your detailed notes at that -- at that moment. If 18 things are an emergency situation. 19 It -- when I say normally, the -- the full 20 report is filed by the -- by the team supervisor, the 21 team leader. 22 Q: All right. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
491 Q: I guess we'll come back to that in a 2 moment, but can I ask you to take a look at the entry on 3 the last page of that document. 4 Perhaps you can help us out there in terms 5 of what it reads? 6 It would appear that the entry at the top 7 of the page says, "20:00, paged"? 8 A: Yes, "20:00 paged out." 9 And the next notation is 23:02: 10 "Served notice." 11 And 1:07: 12 "Was clear." 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I say -- I do have an independent 15 recollection of -- of what happened or what we -- what we 16 did that night. 17 Q: And would you tell me, please? 18 A: The -- the purpose of that, or the 19 purpose of ERT on that night was to act as cover for the 20 -- there was two (2) people, I believe; one (1) was Les 21 Kobayashi, was a -- was either an employee of the Park or 22 a Ministry of Natural Resources employee. 23 He was also a First Nations officer there. 24 Q: Do you recall the name of that 25 officer?
501 A: Les -- Les Kobayashi and I can't 2 remember for sure the second officer. 3 Q: Does the name Vince George, does that 4 assist your recollection at all? 5 A: That would be -- that would probably 6 be Vince there, yes. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Our role as -- as officers in that 9 was to approach in advance of their arrival at the -- at 10 the driveway where the notice of a trespassing was to be 11 served and to scan the area with night vision equipment 12 for any potential threats. 13 I remember I was -- I was fairly close. I 14 could hear conversation between the parties. And I'm not 15 sure who it was from the Provincial Park side that was 16 speaking with the officers but it was basically, you 17 know, We don't do business at night-time, this isn't how 18 we -- this isn't how we do things. 19 And it was -- it was a very brief meeting. 20 There was -- there was no issues as far as the voices 21 being raised or any -- any concerns for safety and once - 22 - once they left we -- we removed ourself from that area. 23 Q: You've indicated that you would have 24 been employing night vision equipment? 25 A: Yeah, it was -- it's a hand-held, I
511 guess you'd call it a mono -- monocular, just a one (1) - 2 - one (1) eye and you can just scan the area with that. 3 Q: Do you recall how many individuals 4 you might have seen on the -- in occupation of the Park, 5 that is that Mr. Kobayashi and Mr. George would have been 6 attempting to serve? 7 A: There was one (1) or two (2) people 8 there. There -- there wasn't many at all. 9 Q: All right. Did you have any 10 instructions at that time, sir, or any concerns about the 11 potential for weapons in the Park? 12 And by "weapons" I'm referring 13 specifically to firearms. 14 A: I don't know that I had any specific 15 information relating to firearms at that point, I think 16 it was more of a -- it was more of an offic -- officer 17 safety exercise. 18 Q: All right. If we can back to the 19 notations then at Tab Number 11, again the last page, as 20 I think you've confirmed that it is in reverse 21 chronological order? 22 A: It is. 23 Q: The last page it would seem then that 24 you would have spent the balance of your shift at a 25 checkpoint?
521 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And can you just assist us in terms 5 of the various checkpoints. 6 I take it that's what that is, that is a 7 notation of where the various checkpoints would have been 8 located? 9 A: It is. Checkpoint 'A' was Parkway 10 east. I put -- a little past the parking lot area, so 11 just past the parking lot area. 12 Q: And when you're talking a bout the 13 parking lot area just to interrupt you briefly, we've 14 been told about a MNR overflow parking lot; is that -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- is that the one we're referring 17 to? 18 A: That's -- that's the parking lot. 19 Q: Continue please? 20 A: Checkpoint 'B' was Ipperwash Road at 21 Parkway. There's a restaurant there known as "Wally 22 Gators"; that was the second. 23 The third was on Army Camp Road by the 24 Sunnyside Trailer Park. 25 And the last checkpoint was, Checkpoint
531 'D', was at basically when you come off 21 Highway across 2 from the entrance to the Army Camp, it was right in that 3 area. 4 Q: And the last notation on that page, 5 sir, what does that tell us? 6 A: It just says, "Checkpoint Charlie", 7 so, I'd remained at Checkpoint Charlie. 8 Q: And if I can ask you again to turn 9 back to your notes at Tab -- Tab 2, Inquiry Document 10 1505, for September the 4th of 1995, just after the last 11 entry that you've read for us where it says, "See field 12 book for notes". We've just looked now at your field 13 book notes? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: The next indication or the next entry 16 reads: 17 "Worked all night..." 18 Yes? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: "...at Checkpoint 'C'", and then at 21 10:00 hours you were off duty? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: Okay. Your next shift would have 24 commenced at 18:30 the following day, Tuesday, September 25 the 5th?
541 A: That's correct. 2 Q: I wonder if you can just tell us what 3 happened on that date? 4 A: Yeah. You're referring to the -- the 5 picnic tables I believe. 6 Q: All right. Tell us -- tell us what 7 your involvement on the 5th of September in this event 8 was. 9 A: Basically the -- the objective was to 10 pull up to the parking lot area, the overflow parking lot 11 and remove picnic tables. 12 Q: I'm looking at your -- at your 13 notation for September the 5th, Officer, perhaps you can 14 look at that with me. It's your page 61, are you with me 15 on that? 16 A: Yes, I am. 17 Q: The entry at 18:30 hours; it would 18 appear that you came on duty at that time? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: All right. And -- and the next entry 21 reads -- 22 A: I'm sorry, it would have been the 23 following day. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Yes.
551 Q: So it would appear that at least on 2 the 5th of September, you were set up at Checkpoint 'D' 3 which you've told us and it would appear your entry is at 4 Highway 21 and Army Camp Road. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Can I ask you just to 7 flip to the next page, page 62 and if you could read that 8 entry at the top of the page please? 9 A: It says: 10 "Received report from P/C Parks [who is 11 Larry Parks, is his full name, he's now 12 a Sergeant] automatic weapons fire 13 heard." 14 Q: And then at 07:30 hours, just 15 continue if you would please. 16 A: "Attended at Forest Detachment for 17 debriefing." 18 Q: All right. Let me ask you, do you 19 have any recollection today, sir, of -- first of all of 20 the report that would have been received from P/C Parks 21 regarding the weapons fire of automatic -- 22 A: I believe that -- 23 Q: -- pardon me, automatic weapons fire? 24 A: I believe that was just over the air. 25 Q: Do you recall anything specific about
561 where this gunfire was -- was heard -- to come from? 2 A: No. I think the -- I think the 3 inference I would have drawn at that point was from the - 4 - the Army Camp area. 5 Q: Okay. And I take it that you'll 6 agree with me, there's no entry at least in this 7 notebook, that is your personal notebook with respect to 8 anything regarding picnic tables? 9 A: No, there's not. 10 Q: All right. Let me ask you then to 11 turn to the document at Tab 11, that is your field notes 12 marked as Exhibit 1506. The entry for September the 5th 13 of '95, it's the middle page of the three (3). 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: All right. Can you just read those 16 entries there if you would please, sir? 17 A: "At 8:30 a.m. entered overflow 18 parking lot. Two (2) male Natives ran 19 inside the ,-- inside of the Park and 20 the picnic tables were secured without 21 problem." 22 Q: And so the entry regarding the picnic 23 tables and I can assure you we've heard evidence on this, 24 you were part of the ERT team that had attended for the 25 purposes of the moving the tables?
571 A: I was. My -- my role was to act as a 2 cover officer. So at that time I had the mini-Ruger and 3 I was situated at the edge scanning out for any potential 4 threats. 5 Q: And when you say at the edge, you're 6 talking about the -- 7 A: At the edge, yeah, sorry, at the edge 8 of the Provincial Park. 9 Q: All right. And when you -- when you 10 note that the tables were secured without problem, I take 11 it that's exactly what it means, there was nothing... 12 A: I don't know how many problems you 13 would have picking up picnic tables. That's -- there was 14 no issue there. 15 Q: And sir, is there anything further 16 from either these notes or from your recollection that 17 you can tell us about your involvement on the 5th of 18 September? 19 A: No. No, there's not. 20 Q: Just with respect to the report that 21 you had heard regarding the gunfire, did this mean 22 anything to you? 23 Did it, for example, increase your level 24 of concern as an ERT member given your duty to often act 25 as cover?
581 A: I think there was an increased 2 awareness of -- of the potential for firearms, certainly. 3 Q: You report that it was automatic 4 gunfire as opposed to semi or single shots. Is that -- 5 did that have any relevance to you at all? 6 A: I think any gunfire is cause for 7 concern, quite frankly. I don't differ -- differentiate 8 particularly between an automatic and a semi-automatic. 9 They're -- they all shoot bullets. 10 Q: All right. And the briefing that 11 you'd attended at the Forest Detachment at 7:30 a.m. or 12 07:30 hours, do you have any recollection about what that 13 was about? 14 A: No, I do not. 15 Q: All right. Given your attendance at 16 the -- at the -- well, I won't -- I won't ask you to go 17 there. 18 Can I ask you that -- nextly to turn to 19 the 6th of September, Officer Poole. 20 And we'll look at your -- at your notebook 21 that would appear -- the entries would appear at page -- 22 your page 62. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: Excuse me, yes.
591 Q: Of Exhibit 1501. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And your notes would simply indicate 6 that at 18:30 hours you came on duty, yes? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And the next entry? 9 A: "14:00 off-duty." 10 Q: All right. And I take it that that 11 would be 14:00 -- 12 A: That's 2:00 p.m. the following day. 13 Q: Thank you. That would be 14:00 the 14 7th of September? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And again, let me ask you to turn 17 back to your field notes at Tab 11, P-1506. What do 18 those notes tell you as to your involvement in this 19 matter? 20 A: I was just working at checkpoint 21 Charlie at 18:30 hours or 6:30 p.m. and in the course of 22 my duties there, I had a gentleman drive up to me that 23 reported mischief to his vehicle. 24 Q: You've told us earlier that 25 checkpoint Charlie was located at Army Camp Road near
601 Matheson Drive? 2 A: Yeah. It was actually Sunnyside 3 trailer Park. It's -- was literally right across the 4 road from that. 5 Q: And your role in manning this 6 particular checkpoint, what did you understand your role 7 to be? 8 A: I don't recall the exact role, as it 9 was laid out. I'm just monitoring the traffic flow. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: All right. I'm going to ask you to - 14 - if you would look at the document at Tab 19. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: We are advised, sir, that this is a 19 portion, a two (2) page portion of the scribe notes, that 20 have been marked already as Exhibit P-426, and if I could 21 ask you to turn to the second page of that. 22 Do you see at 20:19 hours? 23 A: I do. 24 Q: "Constable Poole called on radio. 25 Reports that victim has identified
611 suspects in the same area." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And can you tell us whether this 4 relates to the incident that I think you're just about to 5 tell us about that, while in attendance at that 6 checkpoint, a mischief was reported to you? 7 A: I can. I think there is an error, in 8 that suspects was plural. I think it should be singular. 9 Q: All right. I wonder if you would 10 just go ahead then, and tell us what happened while you 11 were at this checkpoint? 12 A: Yes. I was -- while I was standing 13 there, a gentleman drove up in a car. It was -- it was a 14 blue -- I think it was a blue Nova style, and the driver 15 later identified himself to me as Gerald George. 16 The individual was upset and pointed out 17 some damage on the driver's side, the front quarter 18 panel. And this information was, in turn, relayed to the 19 Command Post; I think it was by Mark Zacher -- 20 Q: That would have been your partner at 21 the -- 22 A: That was -- 23 Q: -- checkpoint -- 24 A: -- my partner there, sorry. 25 Q: Yeah, go ahead.
621 A: And I recall hearing a broadcast on 2 the radio by, it was either Acting Detective Staff 3 Sergeant or Detective Sergeant Mark Wright at that time, 4 directing myself to take a statement from this gentleman. 5 So that's -- that's what I proceeded doing, I asked him 6 if he'd be willing to do that. 7 Q: Okay. Let me just stop you there 8 briefly if I may, Officer. If I could ask you to take a 9 look at the document at Tab 14, it's been marked as 10 Exhibit 1114. It's a radio transmission of the Chatham 11 logger of the 6th of September. Start time would be 12 19:51 hours. It's a forty-two (42) second transmission 13 evidently involving Mark Wright. 14 And you've had a chance to -- to see that? 15 A: Yes, I have. I think I actually 16 heard the -- I think I heard the transmission played for 17 me. 18 Q: Okay. And if we could just take a 19 look at that do you see where -- the comment attributed 20 to Wright, you've identified as Detective Sergeant 21 Wright: 22 "Okay. 10-4. Somebody take him aside. 23 I think -- I think you've got Sammy 24 Poole down there. Take a quick 25 statement from him and I'm roaring
631 back. Just let me get my Sierra 2 together here at the Command Post and 3 you know what I'm after, okay, just 4 stand by, all right?" 5 Okay? 6 That -- that seems to be consistent with 7 the transmission that you would have heard? 8 A: Yeah, I -- 9 Q: And what did you take that to mean, 10 particularly the phrase, "You know what I'm after, okay?" 11 A: Well, I -- the -- the point he was 12 after in my mind was that if this -- if this complainant 13 could identify who committed the -- the mischief. 14 Q: Carry on, sir. You were about to 15 tell us that you had inquired of the individual you 16 identified as Gerald George, whether he would provide you 17 with a statement? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Yes, continue then. 20 A: That's -- Mr. George was -- was quite 21 upset by the -- the damage had been done; it was actually 22 his sister's vehicle he communicated to me. The problem 23 with taking a statement was that we only had one (1) 24 police vehicle there and we couldn't pull that off the 25 road so I asked him if -- if he minded if I would...
641 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I'm -- I'm sorry, continue. 4 A: I asked if he'd mind if -- if I could 5 sit in his car and we could use -- use his vehicle in 6 which to take the statement and that -- that wasn't a 7 problem. And I started to take a statement, it was 8 basically on the side of the road. 9 And from where we were positioned at 10 Checkpoint Charlie you'd be able to see where the 11 mischief had taken place. People down there would be 12 able to see that Mr. George's vehicle had been stopped at 13 this checkpoint longer than what would normally be 14 expected I would suggest. 15 At any rate that was -- that was my 16 inference from it. Vehicles started driving back and 17 forth in front of where I was sitting with Mr. George. 18 Q: Are you referring to the road inside 19 the Army Camp? 20 A: No, sorry, it was -- it was inside, 21 the road inside the Army Base. 22 Q: All right. Adjacent -- running 23 adjacent to Army Camp Road? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Right. Continue.
651 Q: The vehicles were driving back and 2 forth in a manner that I thought could potentially 3 intimidate the witness. I then -- I asked if he'd mind 4 if we moved a little bit further off the road into the -- 5 into the trailer park area. 6 There was a side street there. It's only 7 thirty (30) feet away from where we were positioned on 8 the road but there's a bit of a tree line there, a little 9 bit of a shrub line so it would give a bit of a visual 10 break. 11 So we moved to that location and I sat in 12 the front passenger seat and Mr. George remained in the 13 driver seat. 14 Q: Of -- of his vehicle? 15 A: Of his vehicle. 16 Q: Okay. I'm going to ask you about 17 that statement in a moment but I wonder if you might just 18 take a bit of time if you would please and describe for 19 us your general practice about taking statements? 20 A: Well, I -- it takes a little bit 21 longer but I -- I think it lends itself to obtaining a 22 better statement. What I do is I sit down with everyone. 23 I explain to them when I take the statement, of course; 24 tell me the truth, I don't want you to guess on things. 25 And there's some little things I explain that it's much
661 easier to -- for someone else to read it and understand 2 it if you take it in chronological order. 3 So I usually try and get someone to go 4 right to -- from the very beginning and run it through 5 rather than jumping back and forth from past to present. 6 And I also explain that if you know 7 exactly what someone said, I'll put it in quotation 8 marks. If you're not sure what they said, you can say 9 words to the affect, or the words close to, or something 10 like this. But I stress the fact that if you know 11 exactly what was said, then I'll put that down in 12 quotation. That means to me that it was very clear in 13 your mind. 14 Again I -- excuse me, I explain that 15 though I expect them to read their statement over and 16 make sure it's accurate when we're done. I make a bit of 17 a joke out of it and I say, you know what, you're not 18 going to hurt my feeling if -- if I've missed something, 19 let me know and -- and we'll make it right. 20 I mean, at -- and how I wrap it up 21 generally, at the end of the day it's not my statement 22 here, it's your statement. So when I take this statement 23 I'm not paraphrasing, I'm using your words. And I put it 24 down and I say, you know, You're going to have to talk 25 slow for me because my writing is not that fast. But
671 when I write it, it will be word for word. And normally 2 people will watch as I write and they'll see as I'm going 3 along that I'm doing it word for word. 4 Q: Is this practice that you followed in 5 this instance, taking a statement from Gerald George? 6 A: It is. 7 Q: Okay. Continue then if you can tell 8 us what it is that -- that he told you and I will take 9 you to the document in a moment you'll -- which you will 10 find at Tab 15 of the brief. 11 A: All right. Every -- everybody's 12 different when you're taking a statement from them. You 13 see a lot of different -- a lot of different 14 personalities. 15 With Mr. George it was more of a situation 16 where I had to kind of cut him off and -- and say, Hang 17 on, let me -- let me just explain how I'm going to take 18 this statement because he was already wanting to talk 19 about it. 20 So I said, Just bear with me and let me 21 explain this. So I kind of had to hold him back. 22 My -- my impression of Mr. George was that 23 he was -- he was sincere. He spoke a little bit of -- I 24 don't know if he spoke from a councillor's position but 25 he did tell me that he was a councillor.
681 It seemed to me that he was taking some 2 sort of a leadership role and he was trying to -- I got 3 the distinct impression he was trying to distance himself 4 from the -- from the people that he just had the 5 altercation with, just outside in the overflow parking 6 lot; that was my impression of him. 7 He seems -- he seemed very sincere and -- 8 and concerned. 9 Q: You've told us earlier that your 10 impression was is that he was upset. 11 A: He was certainly upset about the 12 damage. And -- it wasn't -- it wasn't extensive damage by 13 any means. It was maybe, I'd guess, it was five hundred 14 dollars ($500). It certainly wasn't substantial, but I 15 think it with -- the fact that it was his sister's 16 vehicle and I'm guessing his sister wouldn't be too happy 17 that he came back with a dent in the side of the car. 18 Q: All right. And what did he tell 19 about that dent was caused? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: It might be just a turn a phrase, 24 Officer Poole, but I'm -- I've been reminded that perhaps 25 you might avoid the word 'I'm guessing' and simply tell
691 us what you're observations were. 2 A: Sir, I appreciate that. 3 Q: Thank you. 4 A: Okay. I left off what he went -- he 5 went through as to who had thrown the rock and that was - 6 - was Stewart George. And I think his nickname is Worm. 7 Everyone calls -- calls him Worm. 8 He detailed how he was parked there trying 9 to have some sort of a conversation and there is -- there 10 was some discourse over an article in the Forest 11 Standard. I didn't -- I didn't ask him the details of 12 this -- this article, but I took it that was -- that was 13 of a bone of contention there between Mr. George and who 14 he was dealing with. 15 And when he drove away the rock was -- was 16 thrown at his vehicle. That was -- that was basically 17 the element of the mischief. 18 Q: All right. Let me ask you then to 19 turn to the document at Tab 15. It's been marked as 20 Exhibit 123. It would appear to be an interview report. 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And do you recognize that copy? 23 A: Yes. That's in my handwriting. 24 Q: That is your handwriting? And you'll 25 see that there is a, what appears to be a signature at
701 the bottom of that and the subsequent two (2) pages at 2 the end of the entries. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that would be as per your 5 practice? I think you've indicated you would have the 6 witness review their statement? 7 A: Yes. I would. I mean, if you look 8 above the first page there's -- I made some spelling 9 mistake or had the word written down wrong, so I put one 10 (1) line through it with my initials and also Gerald 11 George's initials and that's just to protect integrity of 12 the statement. 13 Q: All right. Just so that people who 14 are looking at this would see that you haven't crossed 15 out words. 16 A: Exactly. 17 Q: All right. And I note in the middle 18 of the page that the indication reads: 19 "And he was an..." 20 I'm going to start in the middle of the 21 sentence. It reads, and I quote: 22 "He was angry over an article that I 23 put in the Force Standard." 24 I take it that is the Forest Standard, and 25 it's simply a -- a typo?
711 A: I believe it is just a typo. 2 Q: And that's again consistent with what 3 you've just told us? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: There's nothing in this report, sir, 6 that would indicate that Gerald George was struck by 7 Stuart George, by Worm? 8 A: No. No, I don't believe -- 9 Q: Was that it -- was that anything that 10 was reported to you that you can recall today and -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- perhaps you simply didn't make a 13 notation of it? 14 A: No, I don't recall any -- any 15 injuries in that respect and he certainly didn't mention 16 anything. The mannerism of -- of Mr. George on that day, 17 I'd say he was -- he was eagerly offering up what had 18 happened and some witnesses you have to kind of, you 19 know, coax a little bit to get the whole story out. I 20 thought he was -- he was being -- relaying information 21 pretty readily; faster than I could keep up with him. 22 Q: And if you'll look at the top of that 23 first page, sir, it has a time when the statement 24 commences as well as a time when the statement concludes. 25 A: That's true.
721 Q: A total of about thirty-one (31) 2 minutes. Would that be fair? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And in the thirty-one (31) minutes he 5 relates that the story that you've indicated on the 6 subsequent two and a half (2 1/2) pages? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: If you were told that there was -- 9 that Gerald George was struck by Stuart George, would 10 that have been recorded? 11 A: Yes, it would have. 12 Q: Okay. I understand, sir, that other 13 information was imparted to you during the course of this 14 statement that is, unfortunately, or -- well, let me not 15 editorialize, that is simply not recorded here. 16 A: No, it was not recorded. 17 Q: Tell us about that. 18 A: Yes. There is -- even part way 19 through this statement, Mr. George started to talk to me 20 about firearms. And there is three (3) types of firearms 21 that were mentioned to me and they were described in a 22 manner that told me that this -- this gentleman was 23 pretty familiar with firearms. 24 He rhymed off and -- and I say this in a 25 way that he -- he brought this forward in a manner that
731 he was -- he seemed to be concerned. Like saying that, 2 you need to be careful because this is -- this is what's 3 here. And it was -- he describe AK-47s with a thirty 4 (30) round mags duct taped back to back. 5 I know that the thirty (30) round mags is 6 -- is like a standard size mag for an AK-47. And he said 7 -- he pointed -- I didn't have a Ruger there, but he 8 says, and they have guns just like you, the mini-Ruger 9 14's. Well, before I became a police officer, I wouldn't 10 have had a clue what a mini-Ruger 14 was. So that was 11 also mentioned. 12 And then he described hunting rifles. And 13 when I -- I took in his seeming familiarity with the 14 weapons and the fact that he could rhyme off the details 15 like that mini-Ruger, I was a little impressed by his -- 16 by his knowledge, quite frankly. I thought, this guy 17 seemed to know firearms. 18 When I was taking the statement, he was 19 quite willing to put that down on paper. I was the one 20 that interrupted him and cut him off and said, This maybe 21 isn't the best place to be putting that into a statement. 22 And I said, You know what, you still have to live here, 23 are you sure you want to do this? 24 And he thought about it and I -- I 25 basically coaxed him out of it quite honestly. I
741 suggested that his best route, if you want to pass on 2 this information, would be to pass it on in a way that's 3 not going to come back on your name. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: You can understand, sir, that the 8 suggestion may be brought that that is not only highly 9 unusual but perhaps even suspect? 10 A: Well, I guess I can speak to my 11 experience from -- and not just on First Nations 12 territories but in policing general there's -- there's 13 quite often a reluctance to offer up information to 14 police in a formal fashion. It's -- there's concern 15 about retribution quite frankly. There's -- there's 16 certainly a concern that way. 17 And this isn't the first time before this 18 or after this that I've had people saying, You know what, 19 I'll talk to you but there's no way you're putting my 20 name in connection with this because I have to live here. 21 Q: And in fairness, sir, that isn't the 22 way you described it. You've indicated that -- that the 23 suggestion that it not be included in the statement came 24 from you? 25 A: Yeah. Because of my concern for his
751 safety; that was my take on that. I thought he was very 2 eager at the time to include this, and I felt that he was 3 going to have some severe regrets down the road if that 4 was included in the statement. 5 The information -- it wasn't something 6 that could be acted on in a criminal fashion. There was 7 no need to have it attached to that statement. What this 8 was going to be in my mind was intelligence. 9 Q: Okay. And did you have a process or 10 a protocol for recording information by way of 11 intelligence that would have come into your possession so 12 that it flowed along a chain of command and might be of 13 some use overall? 14 A: Yeah. My understanding the way to 15 process information is to separate it from the uniform 16 and put it the Crime Unit. If I was to make a notation 17 and put right after a statement that I'd taken from Mr. 18 George, and put, Confidential Informant advised three (3) 19 types of firearms inside the Park, I think it would be 20 abundantly clear who the source of that information was. 21 There would be no doubt in anyone's mind I would suggest. 22 My thought process was to communicate this 23 to Detective Constable Mark Dew when he -- he showed up. 24 He was a senior office in the Crime Unit, well respected, 25 and I communicated the -- the types of weapons that were
761 described. I passed that on and I had full confidence 2 that he would process that information and run it up the 3 chain of command. 4 Q: Did you ever see this information 5 again at any subsequent period? 6 A: No, I did not. 7 Q: Do you know what happened to that 8 information once you passed it up the chain to Officer 9 Dew? 10 A: No, I do not. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Do you recall Gerald George 15 indicating to you that he had a personal gun collection? 16 A: That's possible. All -- all I can 17 say, sir, is that in my conversation with him he 18 impressed me as someone that was very comfortable 19 speaking about firearms. He rhymed things off in a 20 manner that someone watching TV couldn't do. 21 He seemed very comfortable speaking about 22 firearms and in my estimation, my appraisal of the man 23 was that he was very comfortable and very familiar with 24 weapons, just the way he spoke. Most people don't speak 25 of duct taping thirty (30) rounds of mags back to back
771 for an AK-47; that's just not someone -- that's not a 2 conversation you have with someone. 3 Q: Something about SKS's as well. Do 4 you recall anything along that nature? 5 A: I don't believe he mentioned SKS to 6 me. SKS is basically a no-name version of the AK-47. 7 Q: All right. He did mention mini- 8 Rugers and scoped hunting rifles? 9 A: He mentioned the hunting rifle and 10 I'm not recalling whether it was scoped or not. I know 11 there was a hunting rifle was mentioned and the -- 12 definitely he said, You know what, they've got mini- 13 Rugers just like you guys have. 14 And again I -- I say that impressed me 15 that he would actually know the name of it. 16 Q: All right. Can you tell us when you 17 would have passed this information along to Officer Dew? 18 A: Yeah. While Mr. George was reviewing 19 his statement I exited the vehicle and I told Mark Dew 20 about this information about guns and I said, I think you 21 need to sit down with this gentleman and talk to him. 22 Q: And where did you tell him this? 23 A: I told him outside the car while Mr. 24 George was reviewing the statement. 25 Q: I take it Officer Dew was at the
781 scene. 2 A: Sorry, he was. Mr. Dew was at the 3 scene and in all likelihood I would think Mr. George 4 would have -- would have heard that -- I was -- I was 5 right by the car. 6 Q: And do you recall how Officer Dew was 7 dressed; how he was -- how he was attired? 8 A: He was in civilian attire. I don't 9 know if he was wearing shorts or long pants. I mean he 10 just -- he just looked like some guy out for a walk. 11 Q: And -- and did Mark Dew followup on 12 your suggestion that he should have a talk with this guy 13 as you put it? 14 A: I saw that he was having a 15 conversation with him. 16 Q: Did you hear the conversation? 17 A: No. At that point I was -- I was 18 confident that and -- he was a very seasoned investigator 19 and I -- I left it in his capable hands. 20 Q: Do you know where this conversation 21 between Mark Dew and Gerald George took place? 22 A: No. I -- I didn't watch where -- 23 where they were speaking. I -- I finished up my 24 statement and once -- once I was satisfied that Mr. 25 George was -- was happy with the statement that I
791 obtained, it was signed off and I said, Okay, I'm -- I'm 2 leaving now, we can talk with this other Officer. 3 Q: Did you, sir, or did you hear anybody 4 in your presence ask Gerald George about the presence of 5 rocket launchers or such type weapons within the hands of 6 the occupiers? 7 A: I can say I certainly didn't. 8 Q: Did you hear anybody make those kinds 9 of inquiries of Gerald George? 10 A: No, I... 11 Q: But again you didn't hear the 12 conversation between Mark Dew -- 13 A: I wasn't privy to the conversation. 14 I relayed the information that I had, expecting it to be 15 followed up and I left. I went back to the -- the 16 checkpoint. 17 Q: May I ask you to -- just before I -- 18 I ask you to refer to the document at Tab 34, let me ask 19 you whether or not Gerald George had indicated where 20 these weapons were supposedly located. 21 A: No, and I suppose if I was taking it 22 from a from a formal standpoint to gather intelligence 23 then I would have pinned it down a little more. 24 In my mind, he says, They have these type 25 of guns in there. That to me means the Army Camp, the
801 Provincial Park; it's -- it's all one area. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: That's -- that's what I took from it. 4 Q: All right thank you. You didn't get 5 specific information to your recollection as to where 6 they were located, whether in the Park or in the Camp? 7 You simply took it that are one (1) contiguous -- that -- 8 that's one (1) contiguous area? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Thank you. If you look at the 11 document then at Tab 34. It's Inquiry Document 2005342. 12 It's an affidavit. 13 Do you recognize that affidavit, sir? 14 A: Yes, I do. 15 Q: And that's an affidavit that would 16 have been sworn by yourself in connection with the appeal 17 of Kenneth Deane's criminal conviction? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: If I can draw your attention to the 20 notation in paragraph 2 and perhaps just as you're 21 looking at that, I'm going to ask that this be made the 22 next exhibit please. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1507, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1507: Document Number 2005342.
811 Affidavit of Sheldon Poole 2 sworn August 04, 1998, 3 including Exhibits to 4 Affidavit A, B, and C, August 5 04, 1998. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: Do you see the entry at paragraph 9 number 2? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: And it goes onto recite just, 12 essentially what you've told us that Gerald George, a 13 councillor from Kettle Point complained of damage to his 14 vehicle, yes? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: This statement was sworn in 1997, 17 sir, yes? 18 A: Yes, it was. 19 Q: And you then indicate in there that 20 it goes on in the second full sentence, as part of this 21 report from Gerald George about the damage. 22 "Mr. George advised me that there were 23 guns in Ipperwash Provincial Park." 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: All right. Now that's -- I just want
821 to draw your attention to the -- 2 A: Well, that would refresh my memory to 3 it. I didn't recall it offhand before I referred back to 4 it. 5 Q: All right. And so what are -- what 6 are you telling us; that this refreshes your memory as to 7 where he told you the guns were located? 8 A: I -- I would have to rely on the 9 Affidavit. In my mind looking back it's in that -- it's 10 in the one (1) area. It's all -- and -- and maybe it's 11 not proper of me to -- to split them into two (2) 12 separate spots. 13 In my mind, it's all one (1) block of 14 land. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Again, just so I am clear on this, 19 Officer Poole, is it your recollection today that you 20 were not told where the guns were, whether in the Park or 21 in the Army Camp? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I -- I can't say. I can't
831 differentiate right now on an independent recollection, 2 no. 3 Q: All right, thank you. If I can just 4 carry on with that entry: 5 "Mr. George advised that there were AK- 6 47's and 30 round mags [in brackets] 7 (the magazine for AK-49's)" 8 I take it that that's a typo? 9 A: That would be a typo. 10 Q: "And [end bracket] Mr. George asked 11 me - [pardon me] advised me that the 12 mags were taped together. He said that 13 the Native occupiers had Rugers and 14 hunting rifles. Based on my discussion 15 with Mr. George, I formed the opinion 16 that he was sincere and the information 17 he had provided was truthful." 18 And I think you've already told us, 19 Officer Poole, as to how you came to that belief, the one 20 with respect to the sincerity? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then secondly that the 23 information he provided was truthful? 24 A: I believed it to be, yes. 25 Q: Beyond his seeming ease with which he
841 was speaking about these various types of weapons, was 2 there anything else that drew you to that conclusion and 3 the conclusions about sincerity and truthfulness of what 4 was being told to you? 5 A: I -- I mean, I say, I said it earlier 6 but I -- I thought he was trying to act in somewhat of a 7 leadership role and to speak with people that were in the 8 overflow parking lot. 9 And -- and I cannot quote any exact parts 10 of the conversation. The gist of that conversation is 11 that he was trying to distance himself from the actions 12 of the people that were occupying the Provincial Park. 13 Q: All right. If I could ask you to 14 turn to the document at Tab 35, Officer. It's Inquiry 15 Document 2003818. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Behind that there is a two (2) page 18 handwritten statement, photocopied. I seem to have your 19 name at the top of that, yes? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Okay. The number 7772, is that -- is 22 that your number? 23 A: That's my badge number, yes. 24 Q: That's your badge number. And that 25 statement, do you recognize that statement?
851 Do you know -- can you first of all tell 2 us who you gave that to and when you would have given 3 that? 4 A: I believe that was given prior to the 5 trial of Kenneth Deane. 6 Q: All right. And again it goes on to 7 the relate the fact that you obtained a statement from 8 Gerald George indicating that Stuart George had damaged a 9 vehicle. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you'll agree with me there's 12 nothing in that statement mentioning the fact of the 13 weapons -- 14 A: No, there's not. 15 Q: -- that you've told us about. Thank 16 you. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: All right. Your counsel points out, 21 sir, and I -- let me just take your attention to the 22 first page of that statement, second line, where you note 23 that you are a Provincial Constable for five (5) years. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Does that assist you in terms of
861 nailing down when this statement might have been 2 provided? 3 A: It would have been in 1995. 4 Q: All right. Can I ask that this be 5 made the next exhibit, please? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1508, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1508: Document Number 2003818. 9 Statement of Sheldon Poole 10 with handwritten original 11 (undated). 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: And can you tell us who you provided 15 this statement to, if you can recall? 16 A: I'm not sure if that went to Mark Dew 17 or was it Detective Sergeant Trevor Richardson; I believe 18 were two (2) of the people who were organizing the files. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: All right. Can you tell us, sir, if 23 -- if you can recall, whether those -- what -- whether 24 that particular statement was given in connection with 25 the criminal charges that were laid against Stuart
871 George, against Worm? 2 A: I believe that would have formed the 3 -- the basis for the charge. 4 Q: All right. Thank you. And just a 5 moment's indulgence. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: If I can ask you nextly to turn to 10 the document at Tab 30, it's Inquiry Document 20000 -- 11 2000006, rather. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: One (1) moment, please. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: At Tab 30. Are you -- are you with 18 me? 19 A: Yes, I'm there. 20 Q: That would appear to be a statement 21 given by yourself -- 22 A: It was. 23 Q: -- on the 7th of September, 1995? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And could I ask that that be made the
881 next exhibit? I believe that's 1509? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is Tab 3 30? 4 MR. DONALD WORME: Tab 30, yes, 5 Commissioner. 6 THE REGISTRAR: 1509, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1509: Document Number 2000006. 9 Typed statement and 10 handwritten OPP interview 11 report of Sheldon Poole, 12 September 07, 1995. 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 15 to have to take a break some time this morning, Mr. 16 Worme -- 17 MR. DONALD WORME: And I'm just about 18 through this area, sir, -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you 20 decide where you -- 21 MR. DONALD WORME: -- and -- and -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: -- I think that 24 perhaps I can just deal with this document -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
891 MR. DONALD WORME: -- and that might be 2 appropriate? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, 5 Commissioner. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: Again, Officer, I'm not going to take 9 you through the specifics of this because I'm going to 10 suggest to you that it very much corresponds, at least 11 the -- the part that we're interested in at this moment, 12 to what you've told us about the taking of the statement 13 from Gerald George, the fact that there was some damage 14 to his vehicle.? 15 A: Yes. Yes. 16 Q: And again on the 7th of September 17 there's no entry with respect to the fact that he told 18 you about weapons as you've just testified? 19 A: No, there's not. 20 Q: And again the reason that that isn't 21 recorded, I take it, is the same as the reason you've 22 already told us, that it isn't recorded in your notes? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Just before I leave this area, sir, 25 do you have any recollection as to whether or not you
901 might have told your partner at the checkpoint about what 2 was just related to you? 3 A: I don't have an independent 4 recollection of that, would that have -- would that have 5 been pretty normal or understandable to talk with my 6 partner about what I'd just heard? I would think so but 7 I -- I don't -- I don't have an independent recollection 8 of bringing that up. 9 Q: All right. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: I think this is probably as good a 14 place as any, Commissioner, to take a moment -- morning 15 break. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 17 morning break. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 10:37 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 10:56 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
911 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 MS. DENISE WATSON: Sorry, Commissioner, 5 just a moment if I may. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Officer Poole, if I can ask you to 11 look at the document. Again, the statement of Gerald 12 Georg at Tab 15, it's Exhibit P-123 and again the time 13 that the interview concluded was 20:27 hours. 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: I think you've indicated to us that 16 following that you observed Mark Dew and Gerald George 17 having a conversation that you couldn't overhear. 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And do you recall where they were 20 having this conversation? 21 A: I believe they were just standing 22 outside the car. 23 Q: All right. And I take it from that 24 you're not -- you're not certain. That is you don't have 25 an independent recollection of that?
921 A: I'm not going to say 100 percent. 2 Q: All right. Fair enough. Following 3 this I understand, sir, that you were then requested to 4 report to the TOC, the Tactical Operation Centre located 5 at the overflow parking lot. You described that location 6 for us earlier as being just off of East Parkway Drive. 7 A: I don't believe I described it 8 earlier actually, on the TOC site. 9 Q: Perhaps you would do so. 10 A: It's -- it's basically a large 11 parking lot complex. There's numerous parking lots. 12 It's normally used by the beach goers in the summertime 13 and it's a -- it's a short walk from the overflow parking 14 lot. 15 Q: Go ahead and describe -- describe for 16 us how you would have received -- how you would have 17 arrived there and what -- what happened once you did 18 arrive. 19 A: We would have just arrived by vehicle 20 and upon attending there we were -- I was advised to -- 21 to get suited up in ERT gear, Crowd Management gear. 22 And I was -- I was assigned to an arrest 23 team. 24 Q: Okay. I understand that there was a 25 briefing as a result of the instructions to suit up in
931 the CMU gear? 2 A: Yes. The -- the basic direction was 3 that we were not to go inside the Park area. We were to 4 remove anyone that was outside in the parking lot and 5 have them back inside the -- the contested area. 6 Q: All right. Can you described the 7 gear that you've indicated that you were instructed to 8 suit up in? 9 A: Yes. The -- the gear that I wore was 10 identical to the other members of the Public Order Unit. 11 The only difference being I did not carry a shield and I 12 was not carrying a wooden baton. 13 I was -- I was hands free and the -- and 14 the purpose for that, by virtue of being on the -- an 15 arrest squad member is that is someone is to be arrested 16 you don't have to put down your shield and your baton. 17 You just -- you have two (2) hands free. 18 Q: Okay. I understand that there were 19 ASP's. That is metal -- metal batons that were issued to 20 the CMU earlier that day. Were you issued such a device? 21 A: I was. It was at the Forest 22 Detachment I believe. 23 Q: Were you given training in this 24 device? 25 A: The -- the only training that was
941 required I think was how to open and close it properly. 2 All the other elements that had been trained every year 3 through annual block training, the same techniques apply 4 to this baton as it does to a wooden baton, which means 5 the same strike areas that would be acceptable, and the 6 same manner of strikes that could be used. 7 Q: All right. And during the course of 8 your involvement in this event, did you have occasion to 9 use that -- your ASP? 10 A: No, I did not. 11 Q: All right. Aside from this device, I 12 take it you would also had your -- your side arm? 13 A: I did. 14 Q: You've mentioned earlier you had a 15 mini-Ruger in your vehicle? 16 A: It would have been -- it would have 17 been locked up at that point. 18 Q: And the side arm that you would have 19 carried? 20 A: I would have that on, yes. You'd 21 have all your regular duty belt equipment. 22 Q: Okay. And just if I can go back for 23 a moment, the other -- the other public order officers 24 were dressed in the same gear and they've already told us 25 about it.
951 They've described it as hard TAC and I 2 take it that's what you're telling us -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: What -- 5 A: What it is, it's basically a 6 protective layer of a hard plastic type with some 7 cushioning behind it. 8 Q: All right. And your assignment was 9 as part of the arrest team, I think you've already 10 confirmed for us. 11 And perhaps you might take a look at the 12 document at Tab 29 which has been marked as Exhibit P- 13 1416. We're told that this is a drawing that was 14 prepared by the Special Investigations Unit outlining the 15 positions of the various members of the Crowd Management 16 Unit. 17 Have you ever seen this, first of all, 18 before? 19 A: No, I haven't. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And the formations as is set out 24 there, does -- do you recognize that at all, sir? 25 A: Yes. Yes, I do. It's -- it's a
961 basic cordon formation is what it -- I think is what 2 they'd be referring to. 3 You have your contact -- what's called the 4 contact squad would be your first row of officers, and 5 then your left and right cover and you'll see I'm -- I'm 6 labelled out on the -- the rear, at the -- almost at the 7 very rear is where I'm situated as an arrest squad 8 member. 9 Q: All right. And I see that situated 10 next to you is the word "Zacher". I take it that that is 11 your partner? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And he would have been situated to 14 the right of you? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And this diagram would indicate that 17 an Officer Myers was to your left. Does that accord with 18 your recollection? 19 A: Yeah, I don't recall Dave Myers being 20 right beside me. I know he was one of the arrest team 21 members. 22 Q: All right. You've already described 23 what the purpose was, as the arrest team. I wonder if 24 you would just go ahead and tell us then what happened? 25 A: Well, we -- we approached from the
971 TOC site, basically in a narrow formation, is what they 2 call a stack formation. Just narrows down the group 3 because you've got so many guys. 4 And then we approached, as we got in to 5 the area where the -- where the road -- where the parkway 6 meets up with the Army Camp Road basically where the area 7 becomes bigger -- 8 Q: Right. 9 A: That allowed for us to -- to spread 10 out our bodies into a what's called a cordon formation. 11 Q: We've had some testimony here, 12 Officer Poole, that during the course of this march 13 toward the Park that there was some information that came 14 in to the Crowd Management Unit that required the 15 formation to break apart to take cover. 16 A: Yeah. We stopped on the approach. I 17 think there was -- there was some concern about a gun, 18 and I took at that that was unfounded. There was -- 19 because we kept moving forward. After a short time, I'll 20 say three (3) minutes or so, we were -- we were moving 21 forward again. 22 Q: All right. How would you have 23 received the various instructions either to break 24 formation or to re-form and to continue moving along? 25 How would you be receiving that?
981 A: Well, I was receiving it, initially, 2 when I put on my helmet through -- there's a -- there's 3 speakers inside the helmets that are attached to the 4 radio. 5 And Murphy's Law prevailed that night, my 6 radio became non-functioning. But the system is designed 7 to be redundant in that commands are repeated and that 8 messages are repeated. 9 So if the command is given, you know, 10 stop, break off left or break right, everyone does it and 11 it's repeated. So it's meant for a loud -- to overcome a 12 loud crowd noise, if you're in a -- say in a large city, 13 then everything is still flowing even if you can't hear 14 properly through the radio. So I would have got it that 15 way I suggest. 16 Q: You were about to tell us that you 17 reached the intersection of Army Camp Road and East 18 Parkway Drive. You were then allowed to reform the 19 various bodies in the Crowd Management Unit? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Tell us about that, please? 22 A: When we were formed into the -- into 23 the proper alignment I could see that there was a -- a 24 group of people. Basically there was a fence line there 25 like a -- just a -- a basic wire fence with a couple of
991 posts, you know? It's a -- you can -- one you can see 2 through. 3 The -- the majority of people were behind 4 the fence line. There was -- I recall there was a barrel 5 burning and there was only a couple of people that were 6 out in front of the -- the fence line and the only one 7 that I could identify would be Judas George because he -- 8 during the previous occurrence where the window was 9 smashed out and plus because he -- I became familiar with 10 him through that and plus because of his stature. He's - 11 - he's a fairly large man. 12 There was -- how I can characterize this, 13 Judas was -- was yelling comments that, you know, we're 14 prepared to die here. This is sacred ground and we're 15 prepared to die here. Basically don't -- don't come any 16 further. 17 And this was being -- he was -- he was 18 yelling as -- as much at us, at the police I believe as 19 the First Nations to -- that was my impression of it -- 20 to -- to get the crowd behind him. 21 Q: And the crowd that was behind him do 22 -- do I take it first of all that when he was making 23 these statements that he was outside the Park? 24 A: He was. 25 Q: All right. In -- in what we've heard
1001 described as the sandy parking lot? 2 A: Yes. Yes. 3 Q: And do you recall how many of those 4 that were behind him I think as you've described? 5 A: No, I -- I can't say how many -- how 6 many people were there? 7 Q: I take it your observations may 8 perhaps have also been obscured by the other members of 9 the CMU that were in front of you? 10 A: Yeah, that's -- that is correct. It 11 was -- It was pretty dark that night. There was some 12 artificial lighting but there was also in -- in addition 13 to looking through some of the shields, which has a high 14 glare, there was also some spotlights being shined out 15 from -- from behind the -- the fence line which also 16 tended to take away some of your -- your vision because 17 of the brightness. 18 Q: All right. What about being able to 19 hear what you've described as statements made by -- by 20 Judas George? 21 A: I -- I could hear that very clearly. 22 I -- I could see enough. Who it was, he -- he was 23 basically standing out and -- and talking to us or -- or 24 yelling at us and challenging us and I could -- I could 25 see that it was him and I could hear him clearly.
1011 Q: We've heard something about shield 2 chatter taking place. You know what that is as part -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- of Crowd Management Unit tactics? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And can you tell us whether or not 7 you would have heard that that -- at -- around that time? 8 A: I -- I would say that would be 9 inconsistent with the approach that we were taking up to 10 the sandy parking lot. We were trying to go fairly 11 quietly and shield chatter is -- would announce your 12 presence very obviously. It's -- it's not something 13 that's used. I -- I would suggest it's an old -- an old 14 style tactic. 15 Where I have seen it being used is more to 16 keep a cadence. If you're moving a large body of people 17 you want to have that tap. Every time the left foot hits 18 someone's doing the tap so that you can keep -- keep in 19 step. 20 Q: I see. And do you recall whether or 21 not you might have heard that as you're moving toward the 22 -- the Park? 23 A: I -- I don't recall someone actually 24 tapping their shield but if you get that many guys 25 stepping in unison you do get that distinctive "clump"
1021 sound when people are walking. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Tell us then sir, about the actual 6 contact that would have been made if in fact you observed 7 any such contact. 8 A: There -- there was contact. There 9 were several times that the unit was moved forward or 10 parts thereof were moved forward. There was -- and the 11 move that it's called, I can't remember if it was a left 12 or right cover or even the contact. But one of them 13 moved forward and made contact and then backed up. 14 Now, when the whole -- the whole unit is 15 ordered to move ahead at once -- what happened basically 16 was a seesaw. We -- we would move forward and people who 17 were behind the lines would move back and then -- and 18 then the protesters would come forward a bit. And during 19 this time, there would be projectiles raining down. 20 So there was initial -- there was a 21 partial what they call a punchout. What that means is 22 you have to -- I know it sounds inappropriate, what it -- 23 what it means is you have to move forward a set space, 24 say twenty-five (25) steps. Or you have to move forward 25 quickly and then you backup.
1031 And what happens on the final part is that 2 during the -- the projectiles coming down and we were -- 3 we were backing up, then more people came out. 4 The whole unit charged forward or this -- 5 this punchout. The whole unit moves forward very quickly 6 and it was in that time that there was -- my attention 7 was drawn to a -- a man that was laying on the ground. 8 And when I'm looking at the space, it 9 would have been ahead of me and slightly -- it was to the 10 right. And I say it's -- it was quite dark and the first 11 thing that drew my attention was I could see several 12 officers standing there. 13 As I drew closer, I could see a gentleman, 14 he was on his side and he was lashing out trying to kick. 15 I'm not going to say if the kicks were making contact, I 16 -- I couldn't see that. But I could see the gross 17 movement that the -- the leg was moving, the legs were 18 kicking out. As I got in closer I could see an officer 19 that delivered a kick to his mid-section. 20 Q: The person on the ground? 21 A: To the person on the ground. 22 Q: Right. 23 A: I'll characterize that kick as what - 24 - what I call is a quick snap kick. It's -- it's not in 25 the manner of someone kicking a football. It's -- it's
1041 where the foot is shot out quickly and what's -- the 2 intent if -- if I was to use that technique would be to 3 drive the air out of someone's -- hit someone in the 4 stomach to drive the air out to -- to stop fighting; 5 basically to get control of someone. 6 When I approached I could -- what I did is 7 I actually physically moved two (2) officers out of my 8 way and then started trying to get this -- this man that 9 was on the ground, get him under control. 10 There was still an act of struggle going 11 on and I suppose unless you've -- unless you've tried to 12 handcuff someone or secure someone that doesn't want to 13 be, it's a lot harder than -- than it looks. 14 And this gentleman definitely did not want 15 to be handcuffed. He was actively struggling during this 16 time. 17 Now I spoke earlier of some projectiles 18 coming down. When we got into this area the projectiles 19 intensified a great deal. 20 I spent some time with him. I believe it 21 would have been on his -- his right side I'm guessing, 22 they had his arm trying to get him handcuffed and to get 23 him out of there. We didn't spend much time. I think 24 someone was at his -- his boots, trying to get hold of 25 his feet because he was -- he was lashing out with his
1051 feet. 2 And then someone yelled at us just, you 3 know, Get out of there. We need to move because it was 4 an unsafe situation for everyone involved and I don't 5 know if the people throwing the projectiles realized that 6 one of their own guys was there. 7 But he was also in a dangerous spot, 8 because the projectiles were raining down. So, and I 9 don't recall who said, you know, just pull him out, you 10 got to get him out of here. 11 So, we -- we moved him and what -- the 12 manner that was accomplished was basically four (4) 13 officers picked him up and moved him, one (1) on each 14 leg, one (1) on each arm. 15 Q: And moved him to where? 16 A: Back to the rear, out of range of all 17 of the projectiles that were coming down. 18 Q: let me just stop you there and I want 19 to take you back to when the Crowd Management Unit is 20 moving initially towards the fence, all right? 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: Do you know how many times the unit 23 would have pushed toward the fence line? You talked 24 about a see-sawing effect? 25 A: Yeah.
1061 Q: Do you know how many times that might 2 have occurred? 3 A: I thought it was a total of three (3) 4 times. 5 Q: And was the approach by the Crowd 6 Management Unit the same in every instance? That is to 7 say, well, perhaps you can just describe it, what -- what 8 do you recall the -- the front contact squad doing? 9 A: The contact's going to be the same. 10 It wasn't an easy walk up to any -- any of the fence 11 line. It would have been a -- a bit of a run. 12 It'd be a fast jog forwards and then 13 you're pulled back. 14 Q: And could you see whether or not 15 there was contact as between the front of the Crowd 16 Management Unit and those inside the Park? 17 A: I thought there was some sort of 18 contact. I can't -- I couldn't see what it was. My 19 belief was that there -- there was contact going on up 20 there. 21 Q: Is it your recollection that the 22 second advance to the fence line by the Crowd Management 23 Unit was the same as the first? 24 A: Sorry, I don't follow what you're 25 asking.
1071 Q: I think you've indicated that you 2 recall there being a total of three (3) advances by the 3 Crowd Management Unit towards the fence line? 4 A: Yes, I thought -- 5 Q: This see-sawing effect as you've -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- described it. Were each of these 8 advances to your recollection the same, or was there any 9 difference? 10 A: I don't believe there was a 11 difference and I say the one that stands out is when the 12 whole unit moved together. 13 Q: And was it on this third advance 14 where you've indicated that you noticed this individual 15 on the ground, then, to your -- would it be to your left? 16 A: No. It was -- it would have been to 17 my right. 18 Q: Pardon me, go ahead. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Okay, I think where -- where I left 23 off was that there was four (4) of us. And I believe I 24 was one of those officers that picked him up and moved 25 him out.
1081 Q: When you say you believe that that -- 2 that is so, I take it -- 3 A: Well, I -- 4 Q: -- you're not certain. Is that what 5 I gather? 6 A: I believe in my mind I picked -- I 7 picked up one of the -- one (1) -- by one (1) limb. The 8 reason I say that is because there was still struggling 9 going on. 10 I mean it's -- it's very ineffective but 11 you can kick your legs or it's like when you're maybe 12 when you're a kid and someone's trying to throw you into 13 a swimming pool or something. 14 You -- you can't -- you know, if you got 15 four (4) people, you -- it's very ineffective to 16 struggle. So, no one was being hurt by the struggling 17 but I just noticed that he was still -- he was still 18 kicking or trying to move to get free. 19 Q: You've indicated prior to being 20 picked up, this individual was struggling in a like 21 fashion on the ground. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You've indicated that you had to wade 24 through other officers, at least two (2) officers -- 25 A: Yes.
1091 Q: -- in order to get to him? You 2 observed at least one (1) officer kick the individual on 3 the ground, to the -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- abdominal region. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Beyond that, did you see any other 8 officers either striking with their fists, batons, feet 9 or any other -- any other such strikes to the individual 10 on the ground? 11 A: No. When I -- when I got there, I 12 immediately put him face down on the ground, because that 13 is the position to handcuff someone. 14 And I was basically -- I was over top of 15 his body by the small of his back. I was -- I was 16 directly over top of his body to get his arm out and 17 trying to get him handcuffed. 18 Q: All right. I take it you failed in 19 that, at least at that moment -- 20 A: He did -- 21 Q: -- hence the picking up of the 22 individual? 23 A: Yes. I mean if -- if you couldn't 24 accomplish it, you know, very quickly then we need to get 25 out of there because of all the -- the projectiles but...
1101 Q: And in the course of picking this 2 individual up to take him to the back area as you've told 3 us about, did you or did any of the others that were 4 involved in this pick this individual up by the hair or 5 drag him by the hair or any such thing? 6 A: No, that's -- no. 7 Q: I take it that this individual was 8 eventually put in the prisoner's van? 9 A: He was. 10 Q: And by whom? 11 A: He was put in the prisoner van by 12 Constable Zacher, Mark Zacher. I was also there at the 13 rear of the prisoner van with Mark and I was watching 14 him. 15 There was still a small amount of 16 struggling going on, I'd say ineffectual but still an 17 amount of struggling and I -- and I talked to him and I 18 said, You know, I -- I can't say exactly what I said but 19 it was words to the effect of, You know what? You don't 20 -- you don't need to fight anymore, you know -- you know 21 -- you don't -- you don't need to struggle, just -- just 22 -- he's looking for your ID, that's what he was -- he was 23 getting -- looking for identification. He's just getting 24 your identification and you don't need to fight anymore, 25 it's -- it's done.
1111 Q: I take it -- I'm sorry, Officer. 2 A: No that was -- that was it. 3 Q: I take it that he wasn't handcuffed 4 if he's looking for his ID? 5 A: No, he was -- he was still 6 handcuffed. 7 Q: Okay. So let me just see if I can 8 understand this. He was taken to the prisoner van? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: By at least four (4) individuals, 11 four (4) officers? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And at some point in time 14 he would have been handcuffed, was that before he was 15 carried to he prisoner van or at the prisoner van? 16 A: Yeah. When he was -- when he was in 17 the prisoner van he was handcuffed with his hands behind 18 his back. 19 Q: I see. All right. Thank you. 20 A: I also -- I think his -- his ankles 21 might have been restrained as well. 22 Q: Did you know the identity of the 23 individual at that point? 24 A: No, I did not. 25 Q: All right. When you were speaking to
1121 him, telling him he needn't fight anymore what effect if 2 any did that have? 3 A: Well, he -- he did seem to calm down 4 actually, he stopped struggling. I mean it's -- that's 5 the only way I can describe is he stopped. 6 It would have -- it was a very ineffectual 7 struggle if I can characterize it that way but he stopped 8 lashing or stopped kicking his muscles, like his -- his 9 muscles weren't -- weren't moving so much then and he 10 stopped and just -- he laid there and I -- I think it was 11 explained to him that Officer Zacher was looking for his 12 identification, you know? He was -- he wasn't looking to 13 -- to fight with him. 14 Q: All right. Can you tell us what was 15 going on with the rest of the Crowd Management Unit as 16 you were taking custody of this individual, as he's being 17 taken to the prisoner's van? 18 A: I'm not sure what they were doing I 19 was -- I was focussing on -- focussed on the prisoner and 20 -- and staying back there watching him. 21 Q: All right. Once you got to the 22 prisoner's van with this individual you were speaking to 23 him telling him to calm down. 24 Could you observe any injuries on him? 25 A: Yeah, I did.
1131 Q: What did you see? 2 A: There was something that would be 3 consistent with a bloody nose or a fat lip. There was a 4 bit of -- there was a bit of blood around like in the -- 5 underneath his nose and I thought it was a bit of a 6 swollen upper lip. 7 Q: Okay. And as a result of these 8 injuries what did you or anybody else do if anything? 9 A: I think there was an expectation that 10 he would be given medical assistance. 11 Q: And was that expectation -- to your 12 knowledge was that ever acted upon? 13 A: Yes, I believe it was. 14 Q: And what can you tell us about that 15 if you have a recall of that? 16 A: I did not see him physically moved at 17 that point but I know that there was two (2) paramedic 18 crews on standby at the TOC site which as I say is a very 19 short distance away. I think that's -- that would be a 20 pretty standard operating procedure is that if someone 21 had -- someone is injured then you need to take them for 22 a -- a medical. 23 Q: All right. If I can just ask you to 24 turn to the affidavit at Tab 34, it's Exhibit P-1507 and 25 you'll see in the fifth paragraph on the second page of
1141 that document, Officer Poole, the last sentence in there. 2 Under paragraph 5 you're describing the 3 arrest team following the Crowd Management Unit? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. You talk about observing most 6 of the people inside of the Park. There are some people 7 outside. They're armed with sticks. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. And the last sentence on that 10 is one (1) person was arrested. And this is the 11 individual you're just describing to us now, is it? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: All right. How long were you at the 14 prisoner's van with this individual after you told him to 15 settle down, he seemed to calm down as a result of that? 16 A: I would say it was a very short time. 17 Just long enough for Mark Zacher to -- to perform a 18 cursory search and I'd say one (1) or two (2) minutes. 19 Q: Okay. What happens after that, 20 Officer? 21 A: At that point I yelled at Mark I had 22 -- because what I had -- what I had observed was a school 23 bus. I heard a roar of an engine and I saw a school bus 24 coming down the road at I thought it was a pretty good 25 speed.
1151 And I saw officers taking cover to the 2 left and right basically. They just parted. People were 3 just diving out of the way, running out of the way. 4 Q: Where was the prisoner van located in 5 relation to the front -- or the fence of the -- of the 6 Park that you described to us? 7 A: The prisoner van was at the rear of 8 our 9 -- of our people. It would be at the rear, that's -- I 10 think that would be the best way I could describe it. I 11 don't recall people being behind myself. 12 Q: All right. And the distance between 13 the Park fence and the prisoner van if you -- if you can 14 recall? 15 A: Again that would be just guess work. 16 Q: Thank you. So you see this bus 17 coming out at what you've described as -- or thought was 18 a pretty good rate of speed. 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Just continue with that if you would. 21 A: Well I can say the thing that caught 22 my attention first, was I -- I heard this engine roaring 23 and this school bus, the yellow school bus comes down the 24 road. 25 And I see -- I see people basically diving
1161 out to the left and the right and I wasn't sure that 2 someone wasn't hurt. I thought someone probably got ran 3 over there. 4 So people scattered like I say. There was 5 -- there was one (1), it was the Staff Sergeant, Wade 6 Lacroix was discharging his revolver. We all had pistols 7 at that time and I remember thinking that I must be 8 mistaken. 9 I learned afterwards because I see this 10 revolver and he was shooting at the bus. He was the only 11 one that had a revolver. 12 Q: And who was that? 13 A: That was Wade Lacroix, a Staff 14 Sergeant. 15 Q: Did you recognize him by -- by his 16 features, by his physical features? Did you know it was 17 him at that point in time -- 18 A: I -- I felt it was him from his 19 physical size and the revolver. He was the only -- he 20 was the only guy that had a revolver there. 21 Q: So you see -- you see at least 22 Officer Lacroix discharging a firearm? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you knew that to be different 25 from another officer who was also discharging a firearm?
1171 Is that what I gather? 2 A: There were -- there were shots being 3 fired. I don't know who else was firing. 4 Q: Did you see anybody else firing 5 besides what you described as the revolver of Wade 6 Lacroix? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Is there a different muzzle signature 9 from a revolver as opposed to a -- a semi automatic? 10 A: Well I guess the signature is at 11 night time. You can see -- you can see more of the flame 12 that -- that comes out because it was -- it was dark. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: You can -- there was no doubt in my 15 mind it was clearly silhouetted as a -- as a revolver. 16 Q: All right. Aside from -- from the 17 revolver, did you hear other gunshots or see other 18 gunshots or other muzzle signatures or muzzle flash? 19 A: I heard -- I heard a lot of other 20 gunshots. 21 Q: Pardon me? 22 A: I did hear other gunshots, yes. 23 Q: Do you have any recollection about 24 where these gunshots emanated from? 25 Do you know who would have been -- been
1181 firing? 2 A: I assumed it was police officers 3 firing at the bus. I don't know for sure. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Aside from police officers firing at 8 the bus, do -- did you see or come to any opinion as to 9 others shooting? 10 A: When the bus was driving by. 11 Q: Okay, let's start there. 12 A: Sorry that's -- that's when I heard 13 gunshots, it was when the school bus was going by. And 14 what happened, there was -- people were taking cover. 15 Once the -- sorry. Once the school bus 16 had passed, the Crowd Management Unit re-formed on the 17 roadway. It was at that point, I guess, if you want to 18 say there was a -- there was a lull. There was a quiet 19 in the air. 20 It was at that point that I heard two (2) 21 distinct gunshots. 22 Now, the location, I'd put that down. I - 23 - I did draw a map for -- during my SIU interview and it 24 was an area, just to clarify my directions here. 25 In my mind, the water is to the west,
1191 towards the main 21 Highway is east. And the TOC site 2 would have been south from there. 3 So my attention was drawn to the fence 4 line area to the east of the dumpster. And I did not see 5 any muzzle flashes. I did hear two (2) distinct 6 gunshots. 7 In my mind, they were not that of a pistol 8 and it didn't have the same high loud crack as a rifle. 9 I thought that it was that of a shotgun. That was -- 10 that's what I believed. 11 Again, people took cover. People 12 basically dove to the ground at that point is what -- is 13 what happened. 14 I then heard responding gunfire. In my 15 mind, I was -- I was satisfied that it was that of a 16 police officer, because of the proximity and also because 17 there was -- there was a certain rhythm to it and if 18 you've been around trained shooters or you've been on a 19 fire arms range long enough, you can quickly pick out 20 those that are quite familiar with firearms and those 21 that are not because there is -- it's almost an even 22 tempo to the way that shots are fired. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1201 A: Okay. Actually shots are fired. We 2 eventually, we regroup, we form again on the road. At 3 this point I see, and again my vision is obscured 4 somewhat from looking through the shields, but I do see a 5 car and I described it as a blue car. 6 It came out and I don't believe the person 7 driving the car was trying to deliberately run straight 8 through the line of police officers. 9 What -- what was executed was basically a 10 power turn where, you know, you turn the -- the steering 11 wheel a little bit and you jump on the brakes and the car 12 will slide sideways. 13 That's what I recall seeing is that the 14 car slid sideways and it looked like it came into very 15 close contact with the officers. 16 And I think I mention in here that I saw 17 someone hitting their baton on the window, because 18 they've got a shield in one (1) hand and a baton in the 19 other and I'm thinking this is -- this is a very bizarre 20 thing to hit the window with the baton. 21 The car -- the car was only occupied by 22 one (1) person. I felt that it was -- it was a male 23 driving the car and it was -- it was fairly quickly 24 backed up and left the area. 25 He did not hang around out there at all
1211 and to compound things at this point the school bus 2 reverses and goes back through -- back through the same 3 path. 4 Q: As you see this car that you've 5 described as a blue car coming toward and executing the 6 manoeuver you've just described, could you see whether or 7 not there were any police officers firing at the car 8 first of all? 9 A: No, I remember thinking that it was - 10 - it was potentially strange that they weren't. If this 11 guy was trying to run them over I expect that shots would 12 have been fired at him but I didn't see that. What 13 stands out I say is someone hitting the window, the 14 windshield, with a baton. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: And I should -- you know if I 17 characterize at the -- the front end, the headlights, I 18 don't know -- I don't know that the headlights were on 19 but I mean the -- the front end of the car ended up 20 facing out towards the water, that was the -- the way 21 that the car slid in. 22 Q: All right. And how far are you from 23 the vehicle and from what you've just described for us? 24 A: I'm looking through a couple of 25 layers of shields at the back. I -- I had to be a good
1221 distance and again I -- I'm hesitant to put an exact 2 amount on the distance. I'll -- I'll say that I was 3 close enough to see the vehicle clearly slide in and that 4 there was only one (1) occupant which I believe was a 5 male driving the vehicle. 6 Q: Did you make any -- any assessment as 7 to his driving abilities given the manoeuver that you've 8 described for us? 9 A: I felt that if he wanted to drive 10 directly through the officers and run them down then he 11 certainly could have but I think it was -- it was an 12 effort I think to try and slide into the officers as 13 opposed to running them directly over. 14 Q: All right. You see me looking 15 through documents, Officer, I'm just trying to locate the 16 diagram that you would have -- that you've referred to 17 that you had prepared. 18 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 12. 19 MR DONALD WORME: Right. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR.DONALD WORME: 22 Q: There is a -- at your Tab 12, 23 Officer, Inquiry Document 1001940. The first page would 24 appear to be a copy of your notes dated Wednesday, 25 September the 6th, 1995, yes?
1231 A: Sorry, what was the date? 2 Q: Towards the middle of the page it 3 reads Wednesday, September 6th, 1995. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And the second page of 6 that is a diagram. Do you see that diagram -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- on the second page? 9 A: I do. 10 Q: And first of all can you tell us when 11 that diagram was prepared? 12 A: That diagram was prepared when I -- 13 when I gave my interview with the SIU. 14 Q: Okay. If I suggested to you that 15 that date is December the 19th does that help you at all? 16 A: That sounds familiar, yes. 17 Q: All right. This is the diagram then 18 that you would have drawn to depict the scene that you've 19 just described for us? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Perhaps I can ask that both of 22 these pages, Commissioner, be made the next exhibit? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1510, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1510: Document Number 1001940.
1241 Handwritten notes and diagram 2 attributed to S. Poole, 3 September 06-14, 1995. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: And let's just turn to that diagram 7 if we -- if we would, please, and I'm going to ask you to 8 describe what you have drawn here, Officer Poole. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Okay. Just, again I've got my north 13 indicated which would be my view looking directly towards 14 the Provincial Park. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And the area that I've circled was 17 the area that I felt that the shots originated from, the 18 first two (2) shots that I heard after we re-formed on 19 the road. 20 Now, I'm not -- I'm not going to profess 21 to say that this is exactly to scale and when I provided 22 the statement to the SIU he was trying to get me to go 23 literally exactly where the shots originated from and I 24 simply can't do that. 25 I can tell you the area that -- that they
1251 originated from. They were between -- sorry, I'd say 2 they're east of where the dumpster was. There was -- 3 there was an entrance way that you could go out. 4 Q: Where would that be located on your - 5 - on your map? Would that be just -- 6 A: I've got a little of a fence located 7 there. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: It's right in the driveway. I 10 believe it was right in that area on the right hand side 11 of the fence. The fenced area. 12 Q: Okay. But there's a circle there and 13 right above it, it would appear to read 'bush area'. 14 Is that -- is that what you're describing? 15 A: Yes. Yes. 16 Q: And just below that there's a 17 notation I -- I think it reads and you'll help me here, 18 'main entrance to the Park'. 19 A: Yes, that's the one(1) that's -- that 20 would be east on the Army Camp Road. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: So it was -- it was in that bush area 23 between the driveway -- the dumpster. That's how I 24 reference it where the -- where the driveway was between 25 there and one of the main -- the main access.
1261 Q: All right, thank you. You've 2 indicated that the first shots that you had heard had 3 emanated from an area that you've marked -- can you tell 4 us again just to help me out here, where you believe that 5 those shots came from? 6 Is it marked on this map? 7 A: Yeah, sorry that's -- that's the 8 little circle around the bush area I believe. There's a 9 -- there's a bush area circled. 10 Q: You're -- you're talking about that 11 circle that's drawn essentially in the middle of the page 12 at the top? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right, thank you. Now what are 15 the diagrams or -- or the notations, pardon me, towards 16 the bottom of that diagram, at the bottom in the middle? 17 Obviously TOC is the Tactical Operation 18 Centre? 19 A: Yes. I just -- I was trying to give 20 a rough layout of -- of where things are situated. And I 21 have the Public Order off to the left, the left of the 22 Parkway. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1271 Q: You've described the bus for us and 2 that eventually that that had retreated in the same -- 3 essentially in the same route that it came out? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Back through the -- the entrance next 6 to the turnstile. 7 Is that -- is that fair? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: All right. Did you see the driver of 10 the -- of the bus? 11 A: I saw that there was a driver. I -- 12 I couldn't say who the driver was. 13 Q: All right. Did you see anybody else 14 in the bus? 15 A: No. I didn't see anyone else. 16 Q: Did you see whether or not there 17 might have been firearm signatures or muzzle flashes as 18 it were coming from the bus or from the car for that 19 matter? 20 A: No. I didn't. I didn't see that at 21 all. 22 Q: All right. The area that you had 23 described where the first shots had -- had came from, do 24 you know whether or not there were any officers in that 25 area?
1281 A: No. There was -- to my knowledge 2 there was no officers in that area at all. It was far 3 enough to the front. I know at the time there was 4 absolutely no doubt in my mind -- I -- I dove for the 5 ground and as did people around me. 6 Like it's -- there is no doubt in my mind 7 that those shots originated from the -- from the Park 8 area. And I was concerned for my -- for my safety and 9 that's -- I promptly dove to the ground. 10 Q: All right. Were you aware then, sir, 11 at the time that -- that you were part of the arrest team 12 heading towards the Park that there was also other 13 officers in support of the Crowd Management Unit? 14 A: Yes. Yes, I was aware there were 15 other officers there. 16 Q: All right. You were aware that TRU 17 was called out? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that they were providing a 20 supportive role both for observations and protection of 21 the Crowd Management Unit? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. You're aware that they 24 would have been carrying weapons other than sidearms as 25 you've described you would have heard?
1291 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And the sound that you've 3 described as sounding like a shotgun, do you know whether 4 or not that sound is consistent with the types of weapons 5 that were carried by TRU? 6 A: I can say I've never seen the TRU 7 team with a shotgun. They may very well have shotguns, 8 but I -- I haven't -- I never recall seeing them use them 9 and they don't like the scattering effect. 10 So I'd be shocked as to hear that they'd 11 ever used a shotgun. I can say that the -- the shots 12 that I heard in the first, it was -- it was absolutely 13 distinct from the shots that I heard that followed it 14 very shortly thereafter, you know, from my left side. 15 Q: And again, I'm not -- I'm not sure 16 that I'm understanding the distinction but perhaps you 17 can tell me about that again, if you would. 18 What is the distinction between those 19 initial two (2) shots and the subsequent -- 20 A: I -- 21 Q: -- discharges you heard? 22 A: They were -- it was two (2) shots 23 quickly fired and it had more of a loud -- a loud roar. 24 A shotgun has an incredibly loud blast. 25 And my -- my spacing or where I placed it,
1301 I was -- I was confident that it was coming from the Park 2 area. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: The -- the responding gunfire, it had 5 a different sound. It also had a -- it had a different 6 rhythm to it. 7 When I say it's -- I'm not sure how to 8 describe it to you, but it's -- it's an even -- it's an 9 even cadence. 10 As opposed to the first shots, it's boom 11 boom. The next one it's more of an even, boom, boom, 12 boom. 13 There's -- you can immediately pick it up 14 when someone has been around firearms a long time that 15 there is a different -- there's a different rhythm to it. 16 I don't know how else I can describe it. 17 Q: I appreciate your -- your description 18 of that, in any event. 19 You -- you observed the bus retreating as 20 I -- I think you might have described or perhaps I did, 21 back to the Park along the route that it came out in? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you see what happened to the car 24 that you've told us about? 25 A: I think I'd said earlier that I just
1311 -- it just reversed. It didn't stick around very long. 2 Q: All right. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And sir, I've taken you to -- earlier 7 your statement at Tab 30 which was marked as Exhibit 8 1509. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Sorry, what's the exhibit number? 14 Q: Are you with me on that? Tab 30 the-- 15 A: I'm on Tab 30. 16 Q: The statement of September the 7th, 17 '95. 18 A: Yes, I have that. 19 Q: All right. And the description of 20 the events you've just described is essentially the same 21 as in -- as in that statement. 22 You've had a chance to read this statement 23 before coming here today? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And that's consistent
1321 with your recollection of what you've just told us? 2 A: Yes, it is. 3 Q: Similarly, sir, at Tab 34, the 4 Affidavit that we marked as Exhibit 1507, and you see 5 your -- as part of your statement, paragraph 7 and 8 and 6 on, the statement about essentially what -- again what 7 you've just told us about. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you've had a chance to look at 10 this before coming here to testify today? 11 A: Yes, I have. 12 Q: And that's consistent with what 13 you've told us and what your recollection is then and 14 today? 15 A: Yes. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Just with respect to your statement 20 at Tab 30, sir, there is no indication in there that you 21 saw the initial -- initial muzzle flashes that you've 22 told us about. 23 A: No. I thought I was -- I was 24 mistaken because all of our guys had pistols and not 25 revolvers and I thought, oh, obviously my brain's playing
1331 tricks on me here, but it -- it was -- he was the only 2 guy that had a revolver still. 3 Q: Okay. And again your statement at -- 4 at Tab 32, I'm not sure if we've had this marked as an 5 exhibit. It's Inquiry Document 1000386. It's a 6 statement of yourself, sir. It's an interview by Ed 7 Wilson of Special Investigations Unit. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. It's dated the 19th of 10 December '95 and that is the -- we looked at a diagram 11 earlier and that's the diagram that you drew in 12 connection with this interview; that's correct isn't it? 13 A: Yes, it is. 14 Q: Yeah. Perhaps we could mark this as 15 the next exhibit please? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1511, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1511: Document Number 1000386. 19 Statement of Constable Poole, 20 interviewed by SIU's Ed 21 Wilson, December 19, 1995. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: And if I could ask you just to turn 25 to page 12 of that statement, Officer Poole?
1341 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: I see you're describing guns -- 5 gunshots to -- to Mr. Wilson and you're describing the 6 area that -- where you think that these shots had 7 emanated from. Again you don't attribute those to 8 anybody in particular, at least not at that point in 9 time? It's -- 10 A: Sorry. 11 Q: The -- the flashes that you're 12 talking about at this -- at this part of your statement, 13 they're not attributed to anybody in particular? 14 A: Let me just read it here, I'm not 15 what flashes I'm referring to here. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And My -- My Friend is absolutely 20 correct. The only time -- the only flashes you've ever 21 attributed to anybody are those of Wade Lacroix? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And in this statement there's no such 24 reference to any muzzle flashes, first of all, or 25 attributing to Mr. Lacroix or anybody else?
1351 A: That's correct. 2 Q: All right. Sir, following this -- 3 this event and you see the -- the bus backing up, I think 4 you've already confirmed you don't know what happened to 5 the car? 6 A: No. 7 Q: What happens next? 8 A: We basically -- we fall back and we 9 get -- we try -- we do a basic head count and confirm 10 that everyone's accounted for and we -- we get out of 11 there. We go back to the TOC site and again I think that 12 process is -- is went over to make sure all are present 13 and accounted for and then Staff Sergeant Lacroix, he 14 asked whoever had discharged their firearms to go with 15 him. 16 So that separated a few people there, and 17 then we were reassigned to checkpoints. 18 Q: And you know where you went as -- 19 A: Yes, I do. 20 Q: -- a result of this reassignment? 21 A: Yeah. I was assigned -- I know I was 22 with Mark Zacher. I can't say for sure who else was 23 there but I know I was with Mark Zacher. We were 24 assigned I believe it was Checkpoint -- at Wally Gators 25 Restaurant there on Parkway; that's Checkpoint "B" and
1361 remained there through the night. 2 Q: Okay. You told us that there was 3 essentially everyone -- everyone assembled from the Crowd 4 Management Unit and there was a head count performed? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Was everybody accounted for? 7 A: Yes, yes. 8 Q: All right. At any point in time 9 throughout this event did you see any of the TRU 10 officers? 11 A: No, I didn't -- I didn't see them. 12 Q: So needless to say you wouldn't have 13 seen whether they discharged their firearms or not? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. As a result of this -- 16 the head count that was done we've come to know that 17 there no -- at least firearm injuries to any of the 18 officers? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: All right. Did you know at that 21 point in time whether any of the people in occupation, 22 either the driver of the vehicles or any of the people 23 that were engaged in this confrontation that you've told 24 us about, whether they were injured or otherwise injured 25 or killed?
1371 A: We had no idea, at least I had no 2 idea. I know Mark Zacher I was with had no idea. We 3 just didn't know what happened. 4 Q: Did you subsequently find out that in 5 fact there had been injuries and that Dudley George had 6 been slain? 7 A: We knew nothing out on the checkpoint 8 quite frankly, we were put out there and I could see the 9 fire in the sky from -- I could see the glow of a fire 10 from the Provincial Park. That's as much as I knew. I - 11 - we just didn't know. 12 Q: No information is coming over the 13 radio system that you would have had on? 14 A: We had nothing. We didn't know what 15 had happened. The only -- I think we had one stop 16 through the night. I think we had a cheese sandwich or 17 it was a couple 18 -- it was piece of bread with some cheese on it, that was 19 our food for the night and that was the only contact we 20 had with another officer. 21 Q: Okay. What time did you go off duty, 22 Officer? 23 A: It was -- it was late in the day. I 24 went -- once we were finished at the checkpoint, we were 25 all -- I know at least myself, I attended the Forest
1381 Detachment along with Mark Zacher. 2 And we -- we basically we were put in the 3 garage and we were doing -- try -- trying to keep our 4 eyes open. We're falling asleep sitting there waiting to 5 be interviewed. And we were jus -- we were just 6 exhausted. 7 Q: All right. Did you learn at that 8 point in time that there had been injuries and indeed a 9 death? 10 A: I -- I don't think I knew at that 11 point either. I mean -- I think people were afraid to 12 talk to us. No one wanted to tell us anything. In my -- 13 and mind you, in all honesty, I wasn't asking. 14 All I was -- I was basically sleeping on 15 my feet or, you know, I was -- I was completely mentally 16 and physically exhausted and just leaning against the 17 garage wall -- sitting against the garage wall waiting to 18 be called. 19 Q: Okay. Can you tell us when you did 20 learn that in fact there were these injuries and the 21 death? 22 A: I -- I can't say when I learned for - 23 - for certain what -- that someone had been killed. 24 Q: All right. And aside from the 25 emotional -- pardon me, the physical state of exhaustion,
1391 do you have any recollection today, sir, about what your 2 emotional state was? 3 A: I was -- I was basically wiped out. 4 I mean you're -- you're mentally drained completely and 5 utterly. You're -- you got nothing left, that's the only 6 way I can sum it up. 7 Q: Following that, what was your 8 involvement if any, with -- with this matter? 9 A: I provided a statement at that time. 10 That was -- if I could refer back to the actual statement 11 I can tell you the precise time. It was basically 12 fifteen (15) minutes I think. 13 Q: If you turn to Tab 30, that is the 14 statement we've marked as P-1509. It's dated the 7th of 15 September '95. It has a commencement time of 11:00 16 hours. Is that -- is that -- 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And that would be the statement that 19 you proved at that time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. Following your provision 22 of this statement, Officer, what -- what do you recall or 23 what have you recorded as -- as doing next? 24 A: Once the statement was done I think 25 we just tried to go home and -- or tried to go to some
1401 little hotel we were put up in and tried to -- tried to 2 get some sleep. 3 Q: Did you have any discussions with any 4 of your fellow officers about what had occurred to your 5 recollection? 6 A: No. We were just -- we were just 7 completely wiped. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: We just want to go and get our head 10 down on a -- on a bed. 11 Q: Were you of the opinion at that point 12 or at any point subsequent that you were fired upon, that 13 is the CMU was fired upon by people in occupation of the 14 Park? 15 A: There was no doubt in my mind that 16 two (2) shots were fired from behind the fence line area. 17 Whether those shots were up in the air or whether they 18 were fired directly at us, I don't know. 19 I did not see any muzzle flashes and if I 20 has seen muzzle flashes from a head on view I think I 21 could have determined maybe where they were going. 22 But I didn't. All I can say is that I 23 heard the two (2) shots. I knew they were not -- they 24 were -- they were in the fence line area. 25 So I don't know.
1411 Q: Right. I understand that you didn't 2 testify in any of the proceedings that followed this 3 event, either the -- any of the criminal charges that 4 were subsequently brought? 5 A: I did not. 6 Q: You weren't examined as part of the 7 civil case that had been filed? 8 A: No, I don't believe I was. 9 Q: Right, you were involved briefly in 10 and around the 17th and 18th of September to providing 11 perimeter security at the Forest Detachment? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And was there anything remarkable 14 from that particular shift or those shifts that you can 15 recall, tell us about? 16 A: I don't recall there was anything 17 that had taken place other than I saw some high ranking 18 officers wearing body armour. 19 Q: And aside from -- 20 A: Which was unusual. 21 Q: I'm sorry? 22 A: There was some high ranking officers, 23 an inspector, I think at some point I saw, with a -- with 24 body -- wearing body armour which is fairly unusual, I 25 would suggest.
1421 Q: Do you recall who that individual 2 was? 3 A: No, I don't. It's -- I remained 4 outside basically standing there. 5 Q: And aside from the Affidavit that you 6 would have sworn in 1997, and we've looked at that, it's 7 at Tab 34, it's marked as 1507. 8 Do you have any further involvement in -- 9 in this matter? 10 A: No, I did not. 11 Q: All right. All right. There is one 12 other area that I intend to go into, Commissioner, and 13 I'll be very brief on that, but I'm wondering if we just 14 might take the -- the lunch break at this point? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You prefer 16 to take your break now -- 17 MR. DONALD WORME: I would -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- rather 19 than finish it? 20 MR. DONALD WORME: -- prefer that, yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 24 the lunch break now. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands
1431 adjourned until 1:00 p.m. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 12:03 p.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 1:02 p.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: And just one final area, Officer 13 Poole. We've heard something about the production and 14 manufacture of various memorabilia following this 15 incident, including T-shirts and at least two (2) 16 variations thereof and -- and some mugs. 17 Did you participate in any way, first of 18 all, in the creation of these or secondly, in acquiring 19 any -- any of these such items? 20 A: To your first question, no. I had no 21 part in creating them. Secondly, the -- I did purchase a 22 T-shirt which is indicated on the front page of 458, it's 23 written on there, P-458. 24 Q: Right. I put a document in front of 25 you which would appear to be a logo together with a
1441 picture of a T-shirt. It has marked in these proceedings 2 as P-458, that's right. 3 A: Yes. I did purchase a T-shirt like 4 that. 5 Q: All right. And what became of that? 6 Do you still have that? 7 A: No, I threw it in the garbage. 8 Q: And when did that happen? 9 A: It was -- I didn't have it very long 10 and it became apparent that it was -- it was viewed as 11 something racist. 12 I don't think that was the intent. That 13 wasn't my belief when I had it, but I thought it was wise 14 just to dispose of it. 15 Q: All right. Beyond that, sir, do you 16 have any other comments or observations that you would 17 wish to make? 18 A: No, I do not. 19 Q: All right, thank you, sir. That is 20 the examination in-chief, Commissioner. Perhaps we might 21 ask the parties as to who intends to cross-examine and 22 perhaps an estimate as to what they might and I'll keep a 23 note of that as they are speaking. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 25
1451 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 4 Jackson...? 5 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Less than five 6 (5) minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 8 Alexander...? 9 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Fifteen (15) to 10 thirty (30) minutes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 12 Rosenthal...? 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: About forty-five 14 (45) minutes, Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...? 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I reserve forty (40) 17 minutes, 4-0 and I believe that Kettle and Stony Point, 18 they've got questions. I notice that counsel isn't here, 19 but I expect that she would, If I can say it for her I 20 think she might be at least an hour and fifteen (15) 21 minutes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 23 Mathai...? 24 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Fifteen (15) minutes 25 to thirty (30) minutes.
1461 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 2 can't hear -- oh, here she is now. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Fifteen (15) -- 4 fifteen (15) to thirty (30) minutes -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 6 to thirty (30) for you, Mr. Mathai. Now, Ms. Johnson, do 7 you have any idea how long you might be? 8 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Forty-five (45) 9 minutes to an hour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: We're at about three 12 (3) hours thirty (30) minutes -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: So on that estimate -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 16 finish -- 17 MR. DONALD WORME: -- we ought to 18 finish -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 20 definitely finish -- 21 MR. DONALD WORME: -- today, 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, the 24 next witness is available, I know that. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: The next witness is
1471 available in -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: -- the event that any 4 of these estimates become more abbreviated. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 6 Jackson, do you want to start? 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon, 8 Mr. Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 afternoon. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 13 Q: And good afternoon, Detective 14 Constable Poole. 15 A: Good afternoon. 16 Q: My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson. I'm 17 going to ask you very briefly some questions on behalf of 18 the OPP. 19 You told us earlier today that on the 20 morning of September the 6th, you attended at what we 21 often refer to as the sandy parking lot for purpose of 22 assisting in the removal of the picnic tables that had 23 accumulated there. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you also told us of your
1481 observation that you saw two (2) individuals run into the 2 Park. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Is it fair to say, sir, from what you 5 could see, there was no confrontation between the police 6 and these two (2) individuals? 7 A: No, there wasn't. 8 Q: Would it also be fair to say, sir, 9 that while the police were there, those individuals did 10 not come back out into the parking lot? 11 A: No, they did not. 12 Q: And again and I'm asking you from 13 your impressions, did it appear as you watched the scene 14 unfold in front of you, that it was the mere presence of 15 the officers that served to cause those individuals to 16 run into the Park? 17 A: I think that would be fair. 18 Q: Thank you. I'd like you to turn 19 please to the material at Tab 34 of your binder. It has 20 been marked as Exhibit P-1507 and it is the affidavit 21 that you swore. 22 And just to clarify I think there was an 23 earlier that it had been sworn in 1997. But you'll agree 24 with me on page 3 of the affidavit near the jurat, it was 25 actually sworn on August the 4th, 1998.
1491 A: Yes, that's correct. 2 Q: All right. I'm interested in 3 particular in some of the exhibits made to the affidavit 4 and in particular, the handwritten statement towards the 5 back, it's marked as Exhibit 'C' to your affidavit. 6 Do you have that in front of you? 7 A: I'm just looking for it here. Yeah I 8 believe I have it right here. 9 Q: I'm interested in taking you to a 10 passage of that statement that appears at page 3. But 11 just before we get to that, you'll agree with me, sir, 12 both from the date that appears at the top of page 1 and 13 the date that appears at the very bottom of the last 14 page, at page 6, that this statement was not taken in 15 1998, this statement was actually taken on September the 16 3rd, 1997. 17 Is that correct? 18 A: Yes, that's correct. 19 Q: All right. And was this a statement 20 that you gave to a gentleman by the name of Ron Peers? 21 A: Yes, it was. 22 Q: Okay. And if you go to page 3 23 please, you were asked by My Friend, Mr. Worme, some 24 questions about your observations as you moved with your 25 colleagues towards the sandy parking lot on the evening
1501 of the 6th. 2 And I was interested just on focussing on 3 those observations. And you'll note halfway down in this 4 written statement and just to confirm, your signature 5 appears at the end of the statement on page 6? 6 A: Yes, it does. 7 Q: And I trust that before affixing your 8 signature to it, you reviewed the statement and you 9 satisfied yourself that it accurately captured what you 10 had conveyed to Mr. Peers? 11 A: I did. 12 Q: Thank you. And at page 3, 13 approximately halfway down, it's recorded that you said: 14 "At this point, I observed a fire 15 burning in a barrel, numerous people 16 were milling about around the fence 17 line area with the majority behind the 18 fence in the Park." 19 Do I have that correct? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: All right and that is accurate? 22 A: That's accurate. 23 Q: All right. You then go on and are 24 recorded as saying the following: 25 "There were a couple of people outside
1511 the Park who appeared to be leaders. 2 Judas was one of them." 3 And again, you've already related that to 4 us today. 5 A: That's true. 6 Q: All right. And then you go on 7 further to say: 8 "They were trying to get themselves 9 pumped 10 up by talking and shouting." 11 And again you alluded that to that today. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And finally you noted for Mr. Peers: 14 "They were armed with sticks and 15 clubs." 16 So just that I'm clear on your evidence, 17 it was your observation that as you approached the sandy 18 parking lot, there were at least two (2) individuals in 19 that parking lot armed with sticks or clubs? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Thank you very much, sir, those are 22 my questions. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 24 Mr. Alexander...? 25
1521 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Good afternoon, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 afternoon. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 9 Q: Good afternoon, Constable Poole. 10 A: Good afternoon, sir. 11 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 12 one (1) of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George 13 and several members of the George family including Sam 14 George who's sitting here beside me. 15 And I have one (1) area that I'm going to 16 canvass with you. There are other areas that are of 17 interest to us but I expect other people will cover them. 18 And it has to do with the events that were 19 occurring on the evening of September 6th after the CMU 20 was down there and specifically the gunshots by the fence 21 area. 22 First just to make sure I have a proper 23 understanding of what your evidence is on this point your 24 -- your evidence, the way I understand it, is that the 25 bus came out, correct?
1531 A: Correct. 2 Q: You saw Wade Lacroix shooting at the 3 bus, correct? 4 A: I did. I -- I think I should also 5 relate the fact that I relayed or reviewed the statement 6 I provided right after the incident and I think I was 7 mistaken when I said Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix fired at 8 the bus as it came it, it was as it was reversing. 9 Q: So it's as it was reversing? 10 A: It was as it was reversing and that 11 was a -- that was an error on my part. 12 Q: The bus went by, correct? 13 A: It did. 14 Q: Then the CMU re-formed into cordon 15 formation? 16 A: Correct. It re-formed on the road, 17 yes. 18 Q: You heard two (2) distinct gunshots 19 from the fence area? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: People dove to the ground? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: The cordon formation then re-formed? 24 A: I'm not sure if it was in a proper 25 cordon formation but we re-formed on the road, yes.
1541 Q: So there was an attempt to re-form 2 the formation. People were getting up off the ground? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: The car came out? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: The car went back in. The car 7 reversed I should say, not necessarily went back in, and 8 that's when you heard the second incidence of gunfire? 9 A: I can walk through it again if I may? 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: When the bus came out there was no 12 gunfire and when we re-formed on the road that was the 13 first time I heard gunshots. When the car came out I 14 believe there was more gunshots. 15 Sorry, does that answer your question? 16 Q: That does answer my question. Now, I 17 just want to get a sense over what time period this 18 occurred. Did this occur a relatively short period? Can 19 you get a -- I do realize it was -- a lot was going on at 20 the time but can you give us an idea of over 21 approximately how much time this happened? 22 A: I -- I think it was all fairly quick. 23 I -- I think I would have to say there was some time 24 distortion from my perspective. I think it's referred to 25 as tacky psyche from extreme stress. It probably seemed
1551 longer in my mind than in reality what had took. It 2 seemed - -I don't -- I don't know if the whole -- the 3 whole event took five (5) -- ten (10) minutes. I don't 4 think it was very long. 5 Q: Could be -- could even be less than 6 that? 7 A: I -- I don't know that I would say 8 less, sir, because there was -- there was some activity. 9 I would -- it would have to be ten (10) minutes, I'm 10 guessing that range. 11 Q: But as you just said this was a 12 situation that there was extreme stress and extreme 13 tension as well? 14 A: Absolutely. 15 Q: Now, when the bus had gone by if I 16 understand your position as to where you were within the 17 CMU formation you would have been at the rear of the CMU 18 towards -- on Matheson Drive -- towards Matheson Drive, 19 is that correct? 20 A: I was at the rear of the CMU. I was 21 by the prisoner van and I was looking north towards the 22 Provincial Park. 23 Q: And just to be clear for the record 24 when you refer to "north" you're using your -- your 25 direction of north being north towards the Provincial
1561 Park? 2 A: The water is to -- to my mind, maybe 3 it's not accurate, the water is the west. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: The TOC site would have been on the 6 east and facing towards the Provincial Park would be 7 north. 8 Q: So was the -- the only people who 9 would have been behind you was the prisoner van; is that 10 correct? 11 A: No. I was behind the prisoner van. 12 I don't believe anyone else was behind me. 13 Q: So it was basically the prisoner 14 van's in front of you and then the rest of the CMU is 15 completely in front of you? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. About how many officers would 18 that be? 19 A: That were in front of me? 20 Q: Yes. Approximately. 21 A: I don't know. It was a full CMU. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And as a result of the two (2)
1571 gunshots you heard, no one was hit; correct? 2 A: I wasn't aware of anyone being hit, 3 no. 4 Q: No equipment was hit? 5 A: I don't -- I don't know if any 6 equipment was hit. I don't believe it was, but I didn't 7 -- I didn't check everyone's equipment. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: I can speak for my own equipment. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: And I can say that I -- I certainly 12 did not suffer any -- 13 Q: But do -- 14 A: -- bullet wounds or anything. 15 Q: To your aware -- to your awareness, 16 you're not aware of any physical evidence of those 17 gunshots? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Let me answer it, your first 22 question. If I'm aware of anyone that had been shot -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- or any equipment that had been 25 shot, no, I'm not. I'm not aware of any equipment being
1581 shot. 2 Q: And are you aware of any other 3 physical evidence? 4 A: No, I'm not. 5 Q: And you never saw a firearm, that's 6 what you -- 7 A: No, I did not. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And this was despite the fact that 12 everybody was in front of you and this would have been a 13 very clear target if somebody was aiming at them, 14 correct? 15 A: Sorry, I'm not sure what the question 16 is. 17 Q: Everybody was on the road in front of 18 you? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: So there would have been a clear line 21 of sight to where you would have seen where you believe 22 you heard these gunshots? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And nobody was hit? 25 A: Nobody was hit.
1591 Q: And so everything was missed 2 completely? 3 A: Well, what was missed? I don't 4 understand. 5 Q: I'll move on. Now, the other part 6 that I want to talk about is, I want to get an idea of 7 two (2) officers in particular who were in front of you. 8 Now, as I understand it and we've heard 9 evidence that Wade Lacroix was in charge of the CMU? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And Sergeant Hebblethwaite was second 12 in command, correct? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: So they would have been in the middle 15 of the CMU formation, ahead of you? 16 A: Correct. Wade Lacroix was, that's a 17 standard position. Let me just qualify that, that as -- 18 as a leader, sorry, as a leader, the staff sergeant could 19 move about. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: That's -- that wouldn't be uncommon. 22 Q: Fair enough. But at the time you 23 heard the two (2) gunshots, they would have been in front 24 of you, along with the rest of the CMU? 25 A: Yeah. I believe they'd be in front
1601 of me, yes. 2 Q: And the evidence that we've heard to 3 date from them, neither of them have mentioned this set 4 of gunshots. Does that surprise you? 5 A: I would -- my answer to you, sir, 6 would be that everyone recalls things in a different way. 7 Some people focus on different aspects. 8 In my mind, it was very clear about the 9 gunshots. So clear that I'd -- I dove for the ground -- 10 Q: That's -- 11 A: -- I thought my life was in jeopardy. 12 Q: And to be clear, these two (2) 13 individuals were in charge of the CMU, correct? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And issuing orders, particularly with 16 respect to officer safety. 17 A: I would think they'd be issuing 18 orders, yes. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And it doesn't change your evidence 23 that neither of them have mentioned that set of gunshots? 24 A: No, that doesn't change my evidence 25 at all. I think I'll take this to the day I die. I know
1611 I -- I heard gunshots there and I heard responding 2 gunshots on -- from the left side. 3 Q: The other piece of evidence that's 4 come out that it appears from both them and other 5 officers, is that the sound of gunshots did not occur 6 until after the car had exited the Park. 7 Does that change your evidence at all? 8 A: No. My evidence isn't changed by 9 that. I -- I know it's -- it's clearly as I described 10 before that when we re-formed on the road, after the bus 11 had went by, our direction was -- my attention was 12 directed to the fence area, where two (2) shots 13 originated. 14 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 15 that given the tension and stress of the situation, that 16 you believed you heard and saw things that did not, in 17 fact, happen. 18 A: Well, I guess my response to you 19 would be that, no, I -- I will take that with me to my 20 dying day that I heard two (2) shots from the fence line 21 and responding shots from the left hand side. 22 That's simply the way I heard it. If you 23 asked me for every minute detail, there are certainly 24 going to be some gaps. On that point, I'm absolutely 25 comfortable that's what I heard.
1621 Q: I think I'll leave the rest of the 2 point for argument. Thank you very much, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Alexander. 5 Mr. Rosenthal...? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good afternoon, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: Good afternoon, Officer. My name is 14 Peter Rosenthal and I'm counsel for some of the Stoney 15 Point people under the name Aazhoodena and George Family 16 Group. 17 Now, just briefly with respect to the 18 statement you took from Gerald George, you understood 19 that he was hostile to the people in the Park, right? 20 A: I -- I would say there was definitely 21 some tension that I picked up on -- between himself and 22 the people in the Park, yes. 23 Q: And you knew in fact that some 24 members of the Band Council including him, had expressed 25 views attacking the people in the Park, right?
1631 A: That I was not aware of. 2 Q: I see. But he informed you about 3 something in the Forest Standard to that effect, right? 4 A: What -- what he did mention was the 5 Forest Standard. That wasn't the nature of my 6 investigation. I was there to investigate a mischief 7 complaint and quite -- my job was to get that statement 8 in regard to the mischief complaint. 9 I didn't delve into the details of this 10 newspaper article. 11 Q: Now when you're evaluating a witness 12 or a person giving a statement, it's important know if 13 you can, any possible bias that that person may have, 14 right? 15 A: I think bias is a concern. I spoke 16 with him in -- in regard to a mischief complaint and I 17 felt that he was being truthful in regard to that 18 mischief complaint. 19 Q: And we understand that the letter 20 that he had written, that was published in the Forest 21 Standard referred to the people in the Park as animals 22 and jerks. 23 A: I have not read that article, sir. 24 Q: No, but in retrospect it would have 25 been appropriate for you to inquire a little bit more and
1641 find that out and then maybe that might help you to 2 evaluate his testimony to you, right? His statement to 3 you. 4 A: I don't know that it would have 5 changed my approach at all, sir, actually. There's -- 6 the interview is an interview, it's a mischief complaint; 7 that's all I was basing it on, that was -- that was the 8 essence and it's -- it's a fairly straightforward 9 offence. 10 Q: Thank you for your evidence, thank 11 you. Now, you told us that you bought a T-shirt shortly 12 after this event? 13 A: I did, sir. 14 Q: And who did you buy it from, sir? 15 A: I don't recall. It was -- it was 16 someone that was there. 17 Q: I'm sorry, someone? 18 A: It was -- it was someone that was 19 working in that environment. I don't recall who I bought 20 it from though. 21 Q: And did you -- did you buy it in the 22 Forest Detachment? 23 A: I -- I don't remember if I bought in 24 the Forest Detachment at all. 25 Q: You can't assist us as to where you
1651 would have bought it? 2 A: I -- I don't remember where I bought 3 it. I know it was -- it was from an OPP officer, I'm 4 sure. 5 Q: And you heard that there was an 6 investigation into the propriety of those T-shirts? 7 A: I did learn that there was complaints 8 about the T-shirts, yes. 9 Q: And that there was an investigation 10 into those complaints? 11 A: I -- I don't know if I ever heard 12 that there was an actual investigation, no. 13 Q: I see. Did anybody ever ask you if 14 you had such a T-shirt? 15 A: No, they did not. 16 Q: Did anybody ask you up until the time 17 Mr. Worme asked you today? 18 A: No one's never asked if I had a T- 19 shirt. 20 Q: Nobody ever asked about it? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Including -- before Mr. Worme -- Mr. 23 Worme did on the record a few moments ago; that was the 24 first time was it? 25 A: That would be the first time, yes.
1661 Q: And nobody asked you about any other 2 memorabilia that you might have had? 3 A: No, they did not. 4 Q: Thank you. Now as far as I can see 5 by looking through the materials, you have two (2) sets 6 of notes, one you call 'field book notes' and the other 7 you're ordinary notes, right? 8 A: That's correct, sir. 9 Q: But neither of them says anything to 10 speak of about the events of September 6th, right? 11 A: That's true. 12 Q: Now aren't you required to make notes 13 of events such as that? 14 A: The notes that I have are non -- on 15 off- duty time. The view that I took was that I was 16 providing a detailed statement to the investigation -- 17 one (1) of the investigating officers at the Forest 18 Detachment that, in effect, would become my Will Say. 19 In hindsight I would have liked to have 20 provided a more detailed statement when I had time to get 21 -- to have some rest. 22 Q: You told us you made that first 23 statement to the officers about eleven o'clock at night 24 on September 7; is that correct? 25 A: Sorry, eleven o'clock in the morning.
1671 Q: Was it in the morning, sorry? 2 A: It was in the morning, sir, yes. 3 Q: Sorry. Okay. And you spent a lot of 4 time sitting around awaiting being called in to make that 5 statement, right? 6 A: I think I was sitting there for a 7 good hour and a half. 8 Q: And you are supposed to make notes 9 during the first reasonable opportunity to do so after an 10 event, right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I would put it to you, sir, that 13 obviously while sitting around you would have had the 14 opportunity to make your notes, right? 15 A: Yes, I -- I certainly -- there was an 16 opportunity there and in all honesty I was completely and 17 utterly exhausted. I didn't feel I was even capable of - 18 - of writing down coherent notes at that point. 19 Q: Well, and then you said that your 20 statement of September 7 was not as detailed as you would 21 have liked, right? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: So why didn't you make notes on 24 September 8th? 25 A: Because I felt that the statement had
1681 addressed what had happened and if I was to make notes I 2 would have had to base it on that statement and I did not 3 have that statement in front of me. 4 Q: You told us that the statement was 5 not as detailed as you would have liked so why didn't you 6 put the -- 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: -- details in your notes, sir? 9 A: As I -- I said I'm relying on that 10 statement to act as my Will-Say. Whenever I make notes I 11 don't think any officer can put down as much detail as 12 they want. It -- it is there to act as a refresher. It 13 is there to assist you when you have an independent 14 recollection of the events and it has done that. My only 15 comment is that if I was well rested I think I could have 16 put more detail in that statement. 17 Q: And you also responded when I asked 18 why you didn't make the notes afterward that you would -- 19 would have wanted to see what was in the statement before 20 making your notes, is that right? 21 A: Yes, I would have, yes. 22 Q: So on September 8th you wouldn't have 23 been confident making notes without seeing what you had 24 said on September 7th, right, that's what you told us? 25 A: No, I don't believe I said that --
1691 said it that way. 2 Q: Well, what did you mean by that, sir? 3 A: I believe that if you were to expand 4 upon it then you would have the notes in front of me. 5 That is my Will-Say. That is my version of what happened 6 right after the event. It's as close to the event as I 7 could -- as I could be and I thought it was -- it was 8 reasonably detailed. 9 Q: You told us it wasn't detailed 10 sufficiently. Didn't you say that a few minutes ago, 11 sir? 12 A: I -- 13 Q: Am I misunderstanding you completely 14 or what? 15 A: Perhaps I'm not explaining it clearly 16 to you, sir. There's certainly detail on this statement. 17 What I'm saying is that if I was well rested that I 18 would liked to have put more detail in the statement. 19 Q: Yes, and September 8th you were well 20 rested, right? 21 A: Certainly I was. 22 Q: And September 9th you were well 23 rested, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: September 10th you were well rested,
1701 you took time off to rest, in fact, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And why didn't you prepare your notes 4 during one (1) of those days, sir? 5 A: Because I was relying on that Will- 6 Say. 7 Q: I put it to you, you didn't prepare 8 your notes because you didn't want to commit yourself as 9 to what you were going to say about what happened, sir? 10 A: As I said, I prepared my -- my Will- 11 Say and I thought it was -- it was reasonable in the 12 circumstances for how tired I was. 13 Q: Now, you told us, sir, that the plan 14 was that you were to remove anyone who was in the parking 15 lot outside the Park, is that correct? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And who told you that was the plan? 18 A: I believe it was by Staff Sergeant 19 Wade Lacroix. 20 Q: I see. And would that have been in 21 front of other officers in a briefing? 22 A: It was a very quick briefing, yes. 23 Q: And you were you told why you were to 24 remove people who were outside the Park in the sandy 25 parking lot?
1711 A: No, I don't believe that was spelled 2 out. 3 Q: Did you wonder, why do they care what 4 side of the fence these people are on? Did that question 5 occur to you, sir? 6 A: Well, I -- I think I had a reasonable 7 understanding based on my interview with -- with Gerald 8 George. I think I had some insight into that. 9 Q: I see. Based on your interview with 10 Gerald George you understood why they would not want 11 people in the parking lot? 12 A: Yes, I thought that was one (1) 13 factor, that a mischief had taken place. A rock had been 14 thrown on the highway or the road that travels through 15 that area. 16 Q: I see. So it was your understanding 17 that because a rock had been thrown at Gerald George's 18 car by someone from the parking lot, that was the reason 19 that you would want nobody left in the parking lot, three 20 (3) hours later? 21 A: Oh, it was -- it was one (1) small 22 aspect of it, sir, I would suggest that it -- 23 Q: Oh, I see. Well, that's what you 24 volunteered as the reason, sir. 25 A: Yeah.
1721 Q: What -- what were the big aspects, 2 then? 3 A: I would say other contributing 4 factors would be the presence of this -- this activity 5 right near a residential area. 6 Q: And what activity? The throwing of 7 the rock at Gerald George's -- 8 A: The -- 9 Q: -- car. 10 A: The people that would be out in the 11 sandy parking lot, the throwing of the rock. If -- 12 there's people that live in that area, I think they would 13 have some concerns. 14 Q: The people that live in the area 15 would have some concerns? 16 A: I believe so, yes. 17 Q: About the rocks to Gerald George's 18 car? 19 A: About the activity in general. 20 Q: What activity? 21 A: About people being in the parking 22 lot, throwing the rock and if there is any possibility of 23 confrontations with anyone else that came by that route. 24 Q: Well, you knew the road was closed, 25 right?
1731 A: It was closed with checkpoints, yes. 2 Q: Yes. And it was eleven o'clock at 3 night by the time you marched down there or thereabouts, 4 right? 5 A: It was late at night, yes. 6 Q: Not much likelihood of a 7 confrontation occurring on that roadway that evening, 8 right? 9 A: Not that particular time, no, I 10 wouldn't think so. 11 Q: No. So you don't know why you 12 marched down the road, do you? 13 A: Again, sir, I think we still have a 14 legal obligation to the residents of that community. One 15 of our legal obligations is to protect the property and 16 the life of those that live in the area. 17 I think there was a -- based on my own 18 personal experience, our physical presence, our officer 19 presence, initially, in the Park, was -- was met with 20 some level of violence. 21 And then I see that there's -- from my own 22 statement taken from Mr. George, I saw that there was 23 violence that was closer to the roadway. 24 And I looked at the whole -- I looked at 25 the whole picture and I could -- I could see where it was
1741 going. Was this all explained at the briefing? No. 2 In my own mind, you're asking the thought 3 process; that was my thought process. 4 Q: Now, what about after the OPP 5 officers had killed Dudley George and you'd had the 6 confrontation. What did Officer Lacroix say to you as 7 the reason you were leaving the area at that point? 8 A: I'm not sure what -- what the reason 9 was given. I just know that we were -- we were leaving, 10 I'm guessing, for officer safety. 11 Q: For officer safety? 12 A: We left and as I say, I -- I don't 13 know the exact reason. In my mind, there has been so 14 many -- there was so much violence that had taken place, 15 we needed to get out. 16 Q: And what about the cottagers' safety? 17 Did you think they were going to be more protected after 18 that confrontation, after you'd killed one of the First 19 Nations people and there had been that big battle? 20 A: You're asking me if the cottagers 21 would be safe? 22 Q: Well, you told us a few minute ago 23 you marched down there because of concerns about the 24 cottagers, right? 25 A: That is -- that is one aspect, sir
1751 and we have an obligation -- 2 Q: But did you -- 3 A: -- there, yes. 4 Q: And when you have that concern, 5 marching away, after -- obviously things had heated up 6 quite a bit from the one stone hitting the car. 7 A: I think that it was appropriate to 8 leave at that point. 9 Q: It was appropriate to leave then? 10 A: I think it was. There was -- there 11 was an officer safety issue and I think we needed to 12 leave. 13 Q: Well, in retrospect, sir, it would 14 have been better if you never marched down the road at 15 all? 16 A: Again, that would -- that would be 17 speculation and -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- something I don't know -- I don't 20 know that I could answer that. 21 Q: Now, you were in the hard TAC 22 equipment on this evening, is that correct? 23 A: I was. 24 Q: And that included a helmet; is that 25 right?
1761 A: Yes, it did. 2 Q: And we've had, for example, Officer 3 Hebblethwaite was the most recent witness and he 4 testified that with that helmet on, it's very hard to 5 hear things. 6 A: It is. 7 Q: And I gather that it's hard to hear 8 both in -- perhaps in two (2) senses. One is that sound 9 waves don't get in very well, but then also there might 10 be some echo, sort of, in the helmet. 11 Is that correct? 12 A: I wouldn't say there is echos. The 13 helmet tends to muffle the sounds a little bit, same as 14 when you're shooting on a range, the earmuffs do not 15 protect your ears completely, you can still hear it. 16 And one (1) added thing with mine is that 17 the -- the speakers were not working. The radio was not 18 communicating in my -- my helmet, the speakers were not 19 functional. 20 Q: The speakers weren't functioning? 21 A: No, they weren't. 22 Q: And then the other sounds coming from 23 outside would be muffled you say? 24 A: I think it's fair to say there would 25 be some muffling in the sound, certainly.
1771 Q: Now, as you approached the sandy 2 parking lot with the CMU on September 6th, 1995, you were 3 towards the rear of the CMU; is that correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: As part of the -- the group that was 6 detailed to take into custody any prisoners should be 7 taken, right? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: So you were at the very rear of the 10 CMU unit? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And about how far were you behind the 13 front of the CMU unit? 14 A: I don't know an exact distance, sir. 15 Q: Perhaps fifteen 15/20 metres? Is 16 that a fair guess? 17 A: That might be a rough -- that would 18 be a rough guess, yes. 19 Q: Roughly 15 to 20 metres. And then 20 you marched as a group into the sandy parking lot we 21 understand; is that correct? 22 A: Yes, we did. 23 Q: And the front of the CMU unit got 24 right up to the fence to the Park we're told. Is that 25 consistent with your --
1781 A: I believe we were very close, yes. 2 Q: Yes, close to the fence. And you 3 would have at that time been approximately 15 to 20 4 metres behind that fence then if they were right at the 5 fence? 6 A: I -- I don't know what my -- what my 7 spacing would have been there exactly. That's -- that's 8 the way it works -- 9 Q: Yeah. Not exactly but that's a good 10 ballpark guess, is it, sir? 11 A: In -- in a perfect world, your -- 12 your spacing is kept very tight. 13 Q: Yes. Well, can you take your mind 14 back and it -- it wasn't a particular bunching up as you 15 got to the fence was there or? 16 A: No. 17 Q: No. 18 A: No there was certainly -- there was 19 certainly spacing, sir. 20 Q: So you were approximately 15 to 20 21 metres behind Officers Hebblethwaite for example, who at 22 the front, right? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 24 Jones...? 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry, Mr.
1791 Commissioner. Just -- Officer Hebblethwaite's evidence 2 wasn't that he was in front at all. He was actually 3 quite clear -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. The 5 evidence is somewhere in the middle. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: -- in the cordon 7 formation that he wouldn't be in front, he -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: -- would be a unit -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: -- in front. He would 12 be behind them. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry. I -- I 14 thought he was near the front but in any event -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. The 16 third -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I meant the 18 front. Sorry. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ahead of him 20 but certainly -- 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: You -- you were approximately 15 to 24 20 metres behind whoever was in front, correct? 25 A: I guess that's -- that's a reasonable
1801 estimation. 2 Q: Now then you saw most people behind 3 the fence, right, at that point, most of the Stoney Point 4 people, from where you saw? 5 A: When we -- when we first came up most 6 people were behind the fence, yes. 7 Q: Yes. In fact there were only a 8 couple who were perhaps outside the fence, right? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And one of them you testify is Judas 11 George, right? 12 A: Yes. That was the one (1) person I 13 recognized. 14 Q: And there was one (1) other person 15 there? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You don't know who that person is? 18 A: I do not. 19 Q: And you told us that Judas George 20 said to you something like. This is sacred ground, don't 21 come any further, we're prepared to die here; is that 22 correct? 23 A: Yes, or words to that affect. 24 Q: And at that point you were whatever 25 the exact distance, 15 to 20 metres back and the front of
1811 the CMU was right near the fence; is that correct? 2 A: I'm not sure if I -- if I have it at 3 a sequence the way you're describing it, sir. There was 4 -- when we first approached or when we first came into 5 the opening with the sandy parking lot, we were not -- 6 the unit was not right up to the fence line. 7 That didn't happen right off the bat. I'm 8 not -- I'm not quite sure where in the sequencing that 9 you're asking me. 10 Q: And as far as you could tell, nobody 11 replied to Judas? None of the officers responded to him? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: I'm correct am I, that no one 14 responded? 15 A: I -- I don't recall anyone speaking 16 to him, no. 17 Q: Yes, thanks. Now I anticipate 18 perhaps other counsel might deal more with the situation 19 of Cecil Bernard George. I just want to ask you one (1) 20 question or one (1) part of that. 21 You indicated that you were told to get 22 him out of there and you recognized that was for his 23 safety as well as your own safety, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Because of possible projectiles?
1821 A: Well, they -- they weren't possible 2 projectiles, they were raining down. 3 Q: Actually projectiles. And you were 4 over him. You were in effect protecting him from those 5 projectiles then, among other things? 6 A: Yeah, there was -- I guess there 7 would be some partial protection, certainly, yeah. 8 Q: Yes. And in particular he didn't get 9 hit by any projectiles, but you were worried he might be 10 and that's why you got him out? 11 A: I -- I don't think it would be fair 12 to characterize it in that manner, sir. What I can -- 13 what I can say is that the projectiles were raining down 14 and as I described in fact they intensified when we were 15 stopped there. 16 Do I know what projectiles landed on the 17 prisoner? No, I -- I don't know. I was --I was 18 focussing on my own task and I wasn't watching what 19 projectiles were landing on who. All I can say is that 20 they were coming down very -- they were coming down fast 21 and furious. 22 Q: And you didn't hit him in any way or 23 kick him in any way? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Now, with respect to the other
1831 sequence of events there you told us that -- this morning 2 that you heard an engine roar from the bus, right? 3 A: I did. 4 Q: When the bus came down the road 5 people were diving left and right to avoid the bus? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And then you saw Officer Lacroix 8 shooting at the bus? 9 A: I did. 10 Q: And so as far as you understood the 11 first shots that you were aware of by anybody that 12 evening were by Officer Lacroix as he fired at the bus? 13 A: No, that's not correct. 14 Q: I see. 15 A: I -- I corrected myself earlier after 16 the lunch break, and I apologize for the confusion. It 17 was actually when the bus was reversing that Wade Lacroix 18 fired his revolver. 19 Q: Well, the sequence -- the sequence 20 that you told us today, sir, was your heard Officer 21 Lacroix shooting and then you heard a lot of other 22 gunshots, right? 23 A: Yes, there were a lot of gunshots, 24 certainly. 25 Q: But you told -- you mentioned his
1841 shooting first, correct? 2 A: Yeah, and that was -- it was an error 3 on my part to mention his shots as the bus was coming out 4 as opposed to going back in. I reviewed my -- my 5 affidavit and I apologize for the confusion. 6 Q: So which -- which affidavit refreshed 7 your memory on that, sir? 8 A: I'm sorry, not my affidavit, my 9 initial statement. I'm sorry, my statement. 10 Q: Your statement of September 7th? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: I see. Which part of that assisted 13 you, sir? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 15 that at, please? 16 THE WITNESS: The sequence of events. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 18 that at, Mr. -- 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I believe that's at 20 Tab 30. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 30. That's 22 fine. Yes. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: Exhibit P-1509, is that the statement
1851 you're referring to, sir? 2 A: I's -- it has Number 20006 at the top 3 in my corner. 4 Q: Yes, it's now also -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- Exhibit P-1509? 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 9 Q: That is the document you're referring 10 to is it, sir? 11 A: Yes, it is. 12 Q: So you read that over the lunch 13 break? 14 A: I did. 15 Q: And what part led you to change your 16 evidence after lunch? 17 A: I realized that I had my sequencing - 18 - I was out a little bit. 19 Q: I'm sorry, what part of the statement 20 led you to change that? 21 A: Okay. I know that when the -- would 22 you like me read it out? Is that what you're asking me 23 to do or...? 24 Q: Just point to the part that assisted 25 you, sir.
1861 A: Okay. 2 "I saw a large yellow school bus 3 travelling southbound on East Parkway 4 Drive and --" 5 Q: So you're reading -- just for 6 everyone's assistance you're reading from page 2. Sorry 7 to -- 8 A: Sorry. 9 "I saw a large yellow school bus 10 travelling southbound on East Parkway 11 Drive [and accelerating fast] which 12 caused members of the unit to scatter 13 as the bus driver was trying to run 14 them down. The bus approached me and 15 went by. I went to the west edge of 16 the road which is the lake side. After 17 the bus went by we reformed on the 18 road. As we were reforming I heard 19 shots ring out. My attention was drawn 20 to the fence line area where I believe 21 the shots [I think it should be 22 originated, it says, origins]." 23 That is the part that assisted me because 24 that was the first firing that occurred at that night. 25 Wade Lacroix couldn't have fired at the bus if that was
1871 the first time I'd heard it. 2 Q: Sir, where -- where does it refer to 3 Wade Lacroix firing at all in this statement? 4 A: It doesn't. 5 Q: It doesn't? 6 A: No, it doesn't. 7 Q: So, how would that imply that he 8 didn't fire earlier, sir? 9 A: As I -- as I mentioned it's -- I do 10 have an independent recollection and this is -- this 11 serves to refresh my memory and I realized that I'd made 12 an error when I said that Wade Lacroix had fired at the 13 bus as it was coming out. 14 I know that the first shots originated 15 after we had reformed and the bus had passed through and 16 that wouldn't be consistent with Wade Lacroix firing his 17 sidearm at the pistol -- at the bus when it first went 18 by. 19 Q: But it doesn't say in here anywhere 20 that you saw Wade Lacroix fire any shots, right? 21 A: No, it doesn't. 22 Q: But you knew that when you gave this 23 statement on September 7th at eleven o'clock in the 24 morning, right? 25 A: I knew that someone had fired. I
1881 didn't believe what I had seen initially, because it was 2 a revolver. None of us had revolvers. I thought perhaps 3 I'd made an error. It was -- 4 Q: And when did you find out that Wade 5 Lacroix had actually fired, sir? 6 A: I was standing in the office and the 7 Staff Sergeant was looking -- was looking at my sidearm 8 and said that he was going to get a replacement for his 9 weapon. 10 Q: And when was that? 11 A: It was -- it was -- it was in the 12 Petrolia -- the old Petrolia Detachment. I don't 13 remember what the date was on it. 14 Q: But you're saying it wasn't on 15 September 6th or 7th? 16 A: No. It was -- it was certainly after 17 the state that I've -- I realized that it -- there 18 actually was someone out there with a revolver. That's 19 the part I found -- 20 Q: So -- 21 A: -- hard to believe. 22 Q: Right. But you knew, in any event, 23 that you saw somebody firing something into that school 24 bus, right? 25 A: I didn't know who.
1891 Q: You didn't know who? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You didn't mention anybody firing 4 anything at the school bus in this statement did you, 5 sir, or did I miss -- 6 A: No, it -- no, there was other details 7 I certainly didn't mention in this statement, either. 8 But it does serve, you know, to refresh my memory and I 9 do have an independent recollection of events, aside from 10 this statement. 11 Q: Now, sir, you told us today, 12 according to my notes and we'll get a transcript tonight, 13 but that the CMU reformed on the roadway then there was a 14 lull, and then you heard two (2) distinct gunshots. 15 Is that your evidence, sir? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: There was a lull and then two (2) 18 distinct gunshots, right? 19 A: We reformed on the roadway after the 20 school bus went by and I heard two (2) distinct gunshots, 21 yes. 22 Q: But there was a lull first, right? 23 You told us there was a lull, it was quiet, even, I think 24 you said. I wrote down "lull", right? 25 A: A lull can be -- if I said lull, then
1901 I said lull. 2 Q: Well, sir, what is your evidence? I 3 mean, when you think of it, it's not just a question of 4 what you said in this statement or that statement, the 5 question is, what is in your mind, sir? What happened 6 here? 7 You were there, we weren't. Now, what 8 happened? 9 The Crowd Management Unit re-formed and 10 then there was a lull or was there not a lull? 11 A: A lull in my mind can be from two (2) 12 seconds to minutes. There was a brief -- 13 Q: And what sort of a lull was there? 14 Was there a -- 15 A: There was a very -- 16 Q: -- two (2) second lull or a several 17 minute lull, sir? 18 A: It was a very brief, and a matter of 19 seconds. There was enough time to get everyone up out of 20 the ditch and back on the road and to get organized 21 again. 22 Q: So you reformed and then there was a 23 brief lull, and then you heard the shots, right? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Okay, but what you said on September
1911 7 at the passage you just read to me, sir, was as you 2 were reforming, you heard the shots ring out, right. 3 Not even a brief lull, right? Not even 4 reformed at all, right? 5 As you were reforming, you heard the shots 6 ring out; is that what you said on September 7th, sir? 7 A: That's what I said. As we were 8 reforming, yes. 9 Q: Yes. And if you had written notes, 10 sir, what would you have written? 11 A: I would have written that this was 12 given immediately after the occurrence? 13 Q: Well, you told us that you wanted to 14 see the statement before you wrote your notes. 15 A: Yes, to assist me in writing -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- the details. 18 Q: Even a day later you would have 19 needed the assistance of what you said before, sir. 20 A: I think it would be prudent. 21 Q: Yes. I'm suggesting, sir, that you 22 keep on reforming this in your mind. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1921 Q: Over lunch, here and on September 7 2 and every moment in between that you thought about it, 3 sir. 4 A: What I can say is that I provided 5 this statement a matter of hours after the incident took 6 place. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: And I believe that it's -- it's an 9 accurate reflection of -- 10 Q: Now -- 11 A: -- what happened. 12 Q: Now, sir -- yes the question is what 13 happened, sir. 14 And you say "Everybody ducked" when they 15 heard -- when you heard these shots? 16 A: Yeah, that -- that was my impression. 17 Q: It must have been very visible to 18 everybody there, a whole bunch of officers ducking? 19 A: I know I had people beside me diving 20 for the -- for cover, yes. 21 Q: I see. And who beside you dove for 22 cover, sir? 23 A: I don't know their names. I know I 24 saw bodies. That's not the sort of thing you think about 25 to say who is right beside me. I know when the gunshots
1931 went off, I took that as a very serious threat. 2 Q: Now, sir, the two (2) shots were -- 3 that you claim you heard, were very close in succession, 4 right? 5 A: Yes they were. 6 Q: Boom, boom. 7 A: Yes, they were. 8 Q: It wouldn't give you time even to 9 turn in the direction of the first shot before the second 10 went off, right? 11 A: I think that's fair. 12 Q: Yes. And you're wearing this helmet, 13 sir, that muffles sounds and you say there were other 14 shots going on, right, before this? Right or no? 15 A: After this. 16 Q: After this. These were the first two 17 (2) shots of the whole night? 18 A: These were the first two (2) shots. 19 Q: I see. Okay. Soon followed by other 20 ones? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You can't tell us with any confidence 23 what direction those shots came from, can you, sir? 24 Just from having heard those muffled 25 sounds through your -- your helmet on that evening in
1941 this chaotic situation, you can't be sure what direction 2 they came from, can you, sir? 3 A: Well I -- I believe I can actually. 4 When we did -- it was as I say, there was a brief moment 5 of quiet as we were getting things back together, I 6 distinctly heard two (2) gunshots. 7 I can maybe give an example. When I was 8 in Toronto in a hotel and the -- I mean it's -- it's -- 9 I'm not going to say it's the same thing, but you've got 10 elevators on your left and elevators on your right, I 11 hear two (2) chimes go off, I turn to the right direction 12 because my attention is immediately drawn to where the 13 elevator door opens. 14 I think that is a -- I mean it's rather a 15 simplistic example, but I think it speaks -- 16 Q: Yes, indeed. 17 A: -- to the same way that I would 18 function on this night. 19 Q: Sir, you dove to the ground. 20 A: I did. 21 Q: And -- and a large number of fellow 22 officers dove to the ground? 23 A: The people that I saw around me dove 24 to the ground, yes. 25 Q: And then as you were diving, I gather
1951 you heard a rhythmic response -- 2 A: I did. 3 Q: -- of the original shots, right? 4 A: I heard responding gunfire off to my 5 left side. 6 Q: Yes. And how many shots? 7 A: I said it was between two (2) and 8 four (4). When I think to have rhythm you must have a 9 minimum of three (3) shots to have some sort of a rhythm. 10 Q: It must have a minimum of two (2)? 11 A: I said three (3), sir. 12 Q: Of three (3). I see. 13 A: I said two (2) to four (4) in my 14 statement. 15 Q: Yes. You said two (2) to four (4) in 16 your statement, right? 17 A: I did. 18 Q: And you realize that I'm going to 19 say, and he asked you how can you possibly tell a rhythm 20 with two (2), right? 21 A: That's what I thought about 22 afterwards, yes. 23 Q: Yes, that's what you thought about 24 afterward. 25 A: I know there was a rhythm. There is
1961 no doubt in my mind that there was a -- a rhythm to that 2 shooting. 3 Q: But you -- you said there were two 4 (2) to four (4) shots, was your initial statement, right? 5 A: I did. 6 Q: And then you were trying to explain 7 what you meant by it being a professional shooting and 8 you decided the rhythm was the way to explain it. I put 9 that to you, sir. 10 A: I've tried to describe what I heard 11 in an accurate fashion; that's as simple as I can say it. 12 Q: And your first description was to (2) 13 to four (4) shots, right? 14 A: Yes. Which could be three (3) or 15 four (4). It's a range from two (2) shots to four (4) 16 shots. 17 Q: Right. And if it was two (2) shots, 18 no rhythm, right? 19 A: I wouldn't think there would be 20 rhythm to two (2) shots, no which is probably why I gave 21 it some latitude because I wasn't positive how many shots 22 exactly had been fired and that's why I gave it a 23 parameter so I would allow myself some latitude. 24 If I knew there was specifically two (2) 25 shots fired, I would say there was only two (2) shots
1971 fired. And I wasn't -- I was confident that shots had 2 been fired off to my left. I was confident that there 3 was a rhythm. 4 What I couldn't say for sure was exactly 5 how many shots had been fired. I knew it wasn't a lot, 6 but it was -- it was -- I said that's why I went with two 7 (2) to four (4) shots. 8 Q: Sir, if you could please turn to Tab 9 34. Tab 34 is now Exhibit P-1507. It's the Affidavit 10 that you swore for the Court of Appeal for Ken Deane and 11 it includes appendices. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, my first question for you, sir, 16 is how did you come to prepare this Affidavit? 17 A: I attended at the residence. 18 Q: I'm sorry, my hearing's very bad, 19 sir? 20 A: Sorry, I attended at the residence of 21 Norm Peel. 22 Q: I see. And how did you come to 23 attend at that residence? 24 A: I was -- I was asked to go there and 25 speak with Ron Piers.
1981 Q: And who asked you to do that? 2 A: I can't remember who -- who directed 3 me to attend there. 4 Q: Yes. You -- in fact you were 5 directed to attend as part of your normal OPP duties; is 6 that correct? 7 A: Yeah, I -- I think that's fair -- 8 it's part of our normal duties to provide statements, 9 yes. 10 Q: And you can't recall the exact person 11 who directed you, but it would have been perhaps your 12 commanding officer at the time, sir? 13 A: That's -- that's quite reasonable, 14 sure. 15 Q: Well, and -- and if it was not your 16 commanding officer who directed you, you would surely 17 check with your commanding officer before following 18 through with the direction of someone else to attend at a 19 residence of a defence lawyer, right? 20 A: Right. I -- I'm not positive who 21 told me to go there, but I assumed it was -- it was all 22 right. 23 Q: But I -- but I asked you a slightly 24 different question, sir, that if it was someone other 25 than your commanding officer who told you to go there you
1991 would, surely, check with your commanding officer before 2 following through and going there, right? 3 A: I think it was from a sergeant or a 4 staff sergeant, any other ranks I think I would be -- 5 Q: I see. 6 A: -- satisfied with that. 7 Q: Yes, but somebody of superior rank 8 would have to be -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- involved in your going there, 11 right? You wouldn't -- you wouldn't just go -- if Ken 12 Deane said, Drop by you wouldn't have done so without 13 checking with someone else, right? 14 A: You know, in all -- in all fairness I 15 -- I don't recall who asked me to go and can I guarantee 16 absolutely that I wouldn't have went if I received a 17 request from Ron Piers. 18 Q: Okay. And might it have been Ken 19 Deane who suggested that you go, sir? 20 A: I don't believe it was Ken Deane that 21 suggested I go. It was -- the interview was conducted by 22 Ron Piers -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- and I'm guessing that he would 25 have had someone working for him, I just don't recall who
2001 it was. 2 Q: Sir, in any event you attended at Mr. 3 Peel's house, did you say? 4 A: I did. 5 Q: And was Mr. Peel there as well. 6 A: I don't remember seeing him, no. 7 Q: And you were interviewed by Mr. 8 Piers? 9 A: I was. 10 Q: And is that when you did the -- the 11 handwritten document that's towards the end of this tab, 12 sir? 13 A: Yes, it's not actually in my 14 handwriting, I believe. 15 Q: I'm sorry, it's not your handwriting? 16 A: It's not my handwriting, sir. 17 Q: I see. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: At the very end there's a signature - 22 - at the end of the handwritten part, there's a signature 23 that I can't make out; is that your signature, sir? 24 A: It is, sir. 25 Q: It is. I see. So would this then
2011 have been written out by Mr. Piers and then approved and 2 signed by you? 3 A: Yes, I -- I also initialled the pages 4 as well -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- in the bottom left-hand corner. 7 Q: Okay. Now, you were instructed, 8 according to this statement, to actually push the First 9 Nations people back into the Park, right? 10 A: I think that was a phrase that was 11 used. What line is that on, or what page is that, sir? 12 Q: Well, if you could look at page 2 of 13 this written statement, about two-thirds (2/3's) of the 14 way down: 15 "We were told that the CMU would be 16 operational and that we were going to 17 removed the Natives from the roadway 18 and push them back into the Park." 19 Now, is that true sir? Were you told 20 that? 21 A: I can't recall if I was told -- told 22 that in that exact manner; that was my interpretation of 23 it. 24 Q: Well, you included this as part of a 25 sworn affidavit, sir.
2021 A: Yes. That is my interpretation of 2 what was said. I believe that to be an accurate -- that 3 was my -- in my mind, that was accurate, that was the way 4 I interpreted it. 5 Q: Okay, so it -- so you understood -- 6 that was from Officer Lacroix, that you were to push the 7 Natives back into the Park, right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then did you actually push them 10 back into the Park on that evening, sir? You, the 11 general you, meaning the Crowd Management Unit, 12 presumably? 13 A: I think there was def -- there was 14 definitely physical contact, yes. 15 Q: And did you push them back into the 16 Park, sir? 17 A: Briefly. 18 Q: You did. I see. And were you 19 involved in the actual pushing? 20 A: No, I wasn't. 21 Q: And at which point what -- did the 22 pushing take place, sir? 23 A: The pushing, I think, refers to just 24 -- to moving them back in. And that -- 25 Q: I'm sorry?
2031 A: -- that took place on the -- the 2 punchout, as they call it, when the -- when part of the 3 CMU would move forward. 4 Q: Which punchout? There were three (3) 5 different punchouts you told us, sir. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Which punchout involved the pushing 8 them back into the Park? 9 A: I think that would be the general 10 intent for each one. 11 Q: That was the intent, to push them 12 back in the Park? That was the intent of each punchout? 13 A: I would think so. Again, you're 14 asking me to speculate. I don't know. I'm not the staff 15 sergeant there. I was -- I was at the back and watching. 16 That was -- that was my impression. 17 Q: Well, sir, in fact, didn't you write 18 here words that imply that right at the beginning, people 19 were pushed back into the Park. 20 Let's look and see what you've said at 21 page 3 of this document, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which 23 document are we looking at now? 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which
2041 document is -- 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry. The same 3 document that we were on. The handwritten document at 4 the end of Tab 34. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 6 sorry. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Part of P-1507 now. 8 And page 3 of the handwritten document, Mr. Commissioner, 9 which is the third page from the back of that tab and -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 11 we've got the same one because it's not the one that was 12 referred to earlier. 13 It's not the one that was done on 14 September the 3rd, obviously. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, I believe it - 16 - yes, it is, on September 3rd, 1997. Yes, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, okay. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm in that -- I'm in 19 that spot, the bottom paragraph. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: Yes. So what you -- what you wrote 23 then was that as -- as you came up there were a couple of 24 people outside and they were pushed back into the Park, 25 right? That's what you said then?
2051 A: We didn't move forward when there was 2 two (2) people at the Park, or two (2) people outside in 3 the Park -- 4 Q: Did I accurately summarize what you 5 wrote here, sir, when I said that what you said, in 6 essence, was as the Crowd Management Unit approached, 7 there were a couple of people outside and they -- you 8 pushed them back into the Park, right? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I don't know that they went back 13 voluntarily. There was -- and I say there was three (3) 14 separate -- 15 Q: Okay, let's -- 16 A: -- incidences. 17 Q: -- read to what you wrote here, sir. 18 I'm reading from the beginning of the -- the middle, 19 sorry, of page 3. 20 "There were a couple of people outside 21 the Park who appeared to be leaders. 22 Judas was one of them. They were 23 trying to get themselves pumped up by 24 talking and shouting. They were armed 25 with sticks and clubs. The CMU moved
2061 forward to the fence which separated 2 the sand covered roadway and the Park. 3 We pushed the Natives back into the 4 Park." 5 Is that what you wrote on this occasion, 6 sir? 7 A: That's what Ron Piers took from our 8 conversation and wrote it down, yes. 9 Q: Yes. And that's what you initialled 10 as being an accurate reflection of what you told him, 11 right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that's what you included in a 14 sworn Affidavit. You understand when you swear an 15 Affidavit it's being under oath, the same as your 16 testimony here? You know that, right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And in your sworn Affidavit, you 19 included this as well, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And this was to support Ken Deane in 22 his appeal, right? 23 A: I think the -- the way to 24 characterize this, sir, is that I was asked to provide a 25 statement.
2071 Q: Yes. 2 A: Which is not uncommon for police 3 officers to be tasked with and I provided a statement. 4 Q: You understood it was for the purpose 5 of supporting Ken Deane in his appeal, right? 6 A: I knew that there was an appeal. And 7 what I put in here I feel is accurate. I did not swear 8 to anything that I feel is fraudulent. 9 Q: And is this accurate, sir, today? 10 Are you maintaining today that, in fact, the CMU as they 11 approached the sandy parking lot pushed people back into 12 the Park? 13 A: I will maintain that the CMU moved 14 forward on three (3) occasions and did push people back, 15 yes. 16 Q: So you're maintaining this. Why 17 didn't you testify to this today, this morning then, sir? 18 A: I think I spoke of three (3) times 19 that we moved forward. 20 Q: Yes. But you didn't say about 21 pushing people back into the Park did you? 22 A: Well -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm having a 24 little difficulty, Mr. Rosenthal. He did talk about to 25 and fro, back and forth.
2081 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean the 3 precision isn't there, there's no doubt about that, but 4 I'm not sure I'm hearing anything completely different. 5 So I don't' know if that -- 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 7 we'll look at the transcript in great detail -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We will but 9 you know, I think you've covered this now. I really 10 think you should move along. You said you would be 11 forty-five (45) minutes, you're passed that now. 12 And I know that you've, on occasion not 13 used all your time up, but I just wonder if you're going 14 to stay on this much longer or if you've got some other 15 areas to cover? 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: Now, sir, as far as I read your 19 previous statements, you didn't talk about the rhythm of 20 the shooting in any of the other statements, did you, 21 sir? 22 A: No, I didn't. 23 Q: Now, when did you first start 24 thinking in terms of rhythm? 25 A: I don't know when I pictured in my --
2091 my mind of what I heard that night; how I -- how I 2 separated it. I knew there was a clear distinction 3 between the first two (2) shots I heard and the shots 4 that I heard that followed it on my left. 5 I knew there was a clear -- there was a 6 clear difference both in a type of report from the gun as 7 well as the flow of the shooting. 8 Q: Now, sir, you don't claim with any 9 certainty that you heard a shotgun, do you? 10 A: I think I stated that if I was to 11 point in a direction and what type of firearm I believe I 12 heard, I would say it was a shotgun from the muzzle bla - 13 - from the -- from the loudness, the characteristic of 14 the gun report. 15 Q: Well there was -- 16 A: Can I say 100 percent that it was a 17 shotgun, absolutely not, no. 18 Q: No. And there are several different 19 kinds of shotguns, right? 20 A: There's all kinds of shotguns, 21 certainly. 22 Q: Yeah. And the reports are quite 23 different from shotgun to shotgun, right? From different 24 types, right? 25 A: Yes.
2101 Q: And you think you heard a buckshot 2 shotgun? 3 A: Well, sir, I've -- I have been on the 4 firing line and the -- the difference in the load doesn't 5 usually affect the -- the way it sounds when it's shot. 6 And I said it would be an extremely light shot. A 7 shotgun is just -- a 12 gauge shotgun is -- is very loud 8 and it's booming. 9 Q: Now, sir, would you agree that your 10 testimony here was more definitive about it being a 11 shotgun than you said in some previous statements. 12 A: I -- I don't think I can ever say 13 that it was definitely a shotgun. I'm trying to 14 characterize what type of a firearm I can equate the 15 sound of the muzzle -- or the blast, what kind of firearm 16 I can equate that with. 17 The closest I can come to is a shotgun. 18 Maybe that's because I'm familiar with a shotgun from 19 growing up in a rural community and also exposure to 20 firing, you know, on training days for -- 21 Q: What kind of a shotgun, sir? One 22 that fires buckshot or a single shot? Some -- some 23 shotguns, my understanding, sir, fire buckshot, right? 24 A: Well buckshot is actually just a type 25 of round that will -- that any 12 gauge shotgun that it
2111 would accommodate. 2 Q: Yes. Sometimes it sprays pellets and 3 sometimes it's a single bullet, right? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: Which kind did you hear? 6 A: I don't think that would be fair to 7 characterize what type of shotgun blast it was by the 8 type of round that was used. It's -- there's a -- 9 Q: Wouldn't -- wouldn't sound different? 10 A: Again, there's no way I can speculate 11 and say whether it was a Number 2 shot or buckshot or a 12 slug. It was a loud boom. That's what I can say with 13 confidence. Can I say with confidence what type of 14 firearm it is? No. 15 Q: Your indulgence, Mr. Commissioner. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 20 Q: Am I correct -- instead of my taking 21 time to check first, am I correct that in your September 22 7th statement, you did not mention a shotgun? Sorry -- 23 A: I think I mentioned that -- 24 Q: -- perhaps we have to check, sir. 25
2121 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: As I read your September 7 statement 4 on page 2 you simply say: 5 "It didn't have the ring of a high- 6 powered rifle." 7 Right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Not of high-powered rifle. So for 10 example a .22 would not be a high-powered rifle, right? 11 A: No, it's a little more of a pop on 12 that. 13 Q: But I'm just trying to understand 14 your language, sir, a .22 would not be a high-powered 15 rifle, right? 16 A: It depends what sort of load you'd 17 have in it. 18 Q: I see. 19 A: You can get all sorts of different 20 loads, a .22 short or a .22 long. 21 Q: Well, what did -- you said it didn't 22 have the loud ring of a high-powered rifle, right? 23 That's what you said on September 7th, right? 24 A: Yes, it didn't -- 25 Q: Yes.
2131 A: -- I didn't believe it was a rifle. 2 Q: But it didn't have the loud ring of a 3 high-powered rifle. You were suggesting it was both less 4 loud and distinct from a high-powered rifle, right? 5 A: Again what I can say, sir, a rifle 6 does have some distinctness from a shotgun. And what I 7 can say, that night, is I heard two (2) loud gun blasts 8 that came from the fence area. The responding gunfire 9 that I heard on my left was entirely different; there was 10 an even tempo to the shooting whereas a gun blasts that I 11 heard from the fence area was in quick succession and it 12 was quite loud. 13 Q: Well now, all you said with respect 14 to the place you heard the shots from on September 7 was: 15 "My attention was drawn to the fence 16 line area where I believe were the 17 shots' origins." 18 Right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: That's -- that's all you said about 21 it then, right? 22 A: And there was no follow-up questions 23 in that statement. 24 Q: Yes. Now, sir, I would put it to 25 you, it's clear that your evidence evolved from September
2141 7 to the present day as follows. 2 On September 7 you just said you heard 3 shots rang out as you were re-forming, no lull, and your 4 attention was drawn to the fence area which you believe 5 were the shots' origins, and you just said it didn't have 6 the loud ring of a high-powered rifle. 7 By December 19th you went to, you guess it 8 was a shotgun, if you want to look at page 9 of that, 9 sir. 10 And then here it's a shotgun, almost 11 definitely from the area where the First Nations people 12 were. 13 Your evidence has changed dramatically 14 over the eleven (11) years, sir, I would put it to you? 15 A: I don't recall ever saying that it 16 was definitely a shotgun. I think those would be your 17 words, sir. 18 I don't -- I will never say it was 19 definitely a shotgun because I can't say that. And if I 20 said that, I was in error, because who can tell 100 21 percent what type of gun is being fired in the dark 22 merely by the sound? 23 What I can tell you is that it was two (2) 24 reports in quick succession and they were quite loud. 25 And the gunshots I heard following that were distinct,
2151 they were -- they were a different type of firearm. 2 Q: Thank you. We have your evidence. 3 With your indulgence, Mr. Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 9 Commissioner. Thank you, Officer. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 11 Mr. Rosenthal. I'd like to take a short break now. 12 We'll take a short break. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 14 for fifteen (15) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 2:15 p.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 2:31 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...? 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you,
2161 Commissioner. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 6 Q: Good afternoon, Officer Poole. 7 A: Good afternoon, sir. 8 Q: My name is Anthony Ross and I 9 represent the residents of Aazhoodena and there are just 10 a few things that I'd like to clear up with you. 11 Would it be fair to say, Officer, that all 12 this talk, and all these questions and answers about the 13 gun, the shotgun, the -- the noise that it made, that all 14 you can definitively say is that you're satisfied you 15 heard two (2) loud noises? 16 A: No, sir. I don't think I would 17 characterize it as that. I've been -- 18 Q: Is -- Okay. There weren't two (2) 19 loud noises? 20 A: I would characterize it as two (2) 21 gunshots. 22 Q: Well, that's the problem. I'm going 23 to suggest to you that you heard two (2) loud noises that 24 could have been consistent with shot gun sounds. 25 Can you take it further than that?
2171 A: I guess I can tell you a little bit 2 of my background -- 3 Q: No, sir. No, I don't want your 4 back -- 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 6 understand that sometimes when you're asking someone a 7 question and you want a yes or a no answer, it's a little 8 bit frustrating when the witness has something more than 9 that though. What I hear this officer doing is trying to 10 provide an explanation for what he says. 11 And I think he ought to be -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He ought to 13 be given an opportunity -- 14 MS. KAREN JONES: -- entitled to 15 opportunity to do that. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 17 you're right, Ms. Jones. 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, when 19 he starts to tell me his background, what does that have 20 to do with -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it may 22 have. Let's see what he says. I know it's sometimes 23 easier to get a quick answer but if he wants to explain 24 it, we have to give him an opportunity. 25 Now, you were saying...?
2181 Do you want to ask the question again? 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 4 Q: Would you agree with me, sir, that 5 you heard, as far as you're concerned, you heard two (2) 6 loud noises that could have been consistent with shotgun 7 blasts? 8 A: I will say, sir, that I heard two (2) 9 shots which I firmly believe -- or two (2) sounds which I 10 firmly believe are gunshots. 11 Q: And sir, if you're going to say that 12 they were shotgun blasts, that's the position you take? 13 A: The position I take is that they 14 would be similar to shotgun blasts. I've been around 15 guns since I've been a boy; that's what I say that. 16 I grew up with shotguns in the house. 17 There is -- all my family members hunted. I've heard 18 shotgun blasts quite a few times. 19 Q: Was this a 12 gauge or a 20 gauge or 20 a .410 shotgun that you heard? 21 A: I would say it was a heavier calibre 22 than a .410. A .410 is light. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. So then was it a 12 gauge 24 or a 20 gauge? 25 A: That I can't guess and I can't even
2191 say definitively that it was a shotgun. I am saying that 2 it had that roar, like a shotgun. 3 Q: I see. So then I'll come back and 4 say then you heard two (2) loud noises that could be 5 consistent with a shotgun blast? 6 A: I would agree with that. 7 Q: Oh, thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That was the 9 first quest -- 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: It was a long way to 11 get it. What? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That was the 13 question you asked, yes. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Precisely. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 17 Q: Now, apparently over the lunch hour 18 you had an opportunity to review and correct the 19 statement that you gave on the 7th of September, 1995? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: So now, eleven (11) years later, 22 you're correcting that statement, correct? 23 A: I don't know that I'm correcting -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just -- 25 THE WITNESS: -- the statement.
2201 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- just a 2 minute. Just a minute, Officer. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I -- 4 I actually wonder if that's a fair characterization. I 5 believe what this Witness is that he looked at his 6 September the 7th statement. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Over the 8 lunch period. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Hmm hmm. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And as a 11 result of it he was correcting the evidence that he gave 12 earlier. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Hmm hmm. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 15 fair? 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Hmm hmm. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 19 Q: So I take it, sir, that the evidence 20 that you had given -- so you stick with your September 21 7th statement? 22 A: Yes, that was accurate. 23 Q: Oh, fine. So that when it was 24 reproduced as an exhibit to your Affidavit you stick also 25 with that statement? It was the September 7th statement.
2211 A: Yes, the September 7th statement was 2 accurate, yes. 3 Q: Yeah, okay. And as far as just them 4 -- these -- the reports from the guns were concerned you 5 went on to say that there was certain rhythm to some of 6 the shooting. Clear it up for me. Now, is it -- was it 7 the police shooting that had rhythm? 8 A: Yes, I -- I believe it was the -- I 9 believe at that time that it was a police officer 10 shooting the shots that had the rhythm. The first two 11 (2) were in rapid succession. The responding gunfire had 12 an even rhythm to it. 13 Q: Are we speaking about the responding 14 gunfire? 15 A: Sorry. The responding gunfire -- 16 Q: That had a rhythm? 17 A: I believe it had a rhythm, yes. 18 Q: Yeah. And you say that based on your 19 experience as a police officer? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And your experience on the range? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So I take it then that with all the 24 training that the police officers get with guns is really 25 for rhythm rather than for accuracy, correct?
2221 A: I don't think that would be a fair 2 characterization at all, sir. 3 Q: Oh, yes, but in this one you were 4 able to pin down the rhythm and with all the shots that 5 were fired only one (1) person was hit. The emphasis on 6 rhythm, am I correct? 7 A: If -- if you're asking me if rhythm 8 is more important than accuracy I don't think that they 9 are directly related. Rhythm occurs because of a smooth 10 operation of a firearm, it has nothing to do with 11 accuracy. 12 Accuracy is -- an accurate shooter is 13 probably reflected in the sound of the shooting, but just 14 because you can shoot at an even tempo doesn't mean 15 you're going to be accurate. 16 Q: I see. Now, let me just walk you 17 through some things in the -- in the evidence you gave 18 today. 19 First thing is that I notice from your CV 20 that you did a degree in Criminology? 21 A: I did. 22 Q: Yeah. And in your criminology work 23 did you ever come across the term 'colour of right'? 24 A: Colour of right would refer to a land 25 -- is that what you're asking?
2231 Q: No, I thought what I was asking was 2 clear. I'll try it again. 3 In your criminology course did you ever 4 come across a term 'colour of right'? 5 A: I'm sure I did. I don't recall it 6 right now. 7 Q: I see. Is it fair to say that 8 although you cannot specifically recall whether you came 9 across it in your course, you understand the concept of 10 colour of right? 11 A: I could probably use a refresher, 12 sir. 13 Q: Yeah. And in your evidence you told 14 My Friend Mr. Worme that you knew there was an ongoing 15 conflict between the Military Police and the people who 16 wanted the land back? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You recall that? 19 A: I was -- I was familiar with that, 20 yes. 21 Q: Sure. So you knew that the -- the 22 driving force for the conflict between the Military 23 Police -- the Military Police, yes, and the occupiers was 24 -- was with respect to the land? 25 A: Yes, I -- I realize that there was a
2241 debate over the land, yes. 2 Q: I see. And I think, sir, that having 3 worked in First Nation environments you were aware that 4 no individual was trying to get personal possession of 5 the land, it was a group effort. Would that agree -- do 6 you agree with that? 7 A: Well, in -- in all sincerity I -- I 8 was not familiar with the inner workings of this -- the 9 negotiation process or who was in charge or who was 10 conducting what. 11 Q: Fine. So you cannot say whether or 12 not you are of the view that this was individual effort 13 or a group effort? 14 A: I -- I have no idea, no. 15 Q: But you knew it was a dispute, a 16 conflict between the Military Police and people who 17 wanted their land back? Your words. 18 A: Yes, I knew there was a dispute there 19 certainly, over the land. 20 Q: I see. Now you said, sir, that -- in 21 cross-examination that one of your concerns were for the 22 people who were living next to the parking lot. 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: Yeah. And what was the nature of the 25 concern that you had for the people living next to the
2251 parking lot? 2 A: My concern is for their well being 3 that there had been some incidents of violence in that 4 area. 5 Q: I see. And when did you develop this 6 concern for those people living next to the parking lot? 7 A: I think that's one of our primary 8 concerns when you're a police officer. We have a -- we 9 have a -- we're duty bound to protect property and life. 10 Q: I agree with that. But I still ask 11 you, when did you develop that concern for the people who 12 were living next to the parking lot? 13 A: I think there was -- I think there 14 has always been a concern for anyone living there quite 15 frankly. 16 Q: I see. And when was that concern 17 alleviated? When was it totally relieved? 18 A: I don't know that it's ever relieved, 19 sir. 20 Q: Then why is it that the police are 21 not down there now? 22 A: Well, actually the police do patrol 23 that area. 24 Q: I see. But -- you spoke also about a 25 legal obligation to the residents. Do you recall those
2261 words? 2 A: I do, sir. 3 Q: Yes. What was the nature of this 4 legal obligation you had to the residents? 5 A: Well, it's spelled out in the Police 6 Services Act for Ontario that we have -- we have a duty 7 to protect life and we also have a duty to protect 8 property. 9 Q: And this duty to protect life and 10 property, didn't it extend to the occupiers? 11 A: I believe it extends to every citizen 12 in Ontario or Canada. 13 Q: Well, I hear that, but didn't it 14 extend to the occupiers? 15 A: Well, certainly. It would extend to 16 everyone. 17 Q: And as far as the protecting of 18 property is concerned, is it fair then to say that it was 19 part of the protection of property duty that you were 20 exercising when you took the statement from Gerald George 21 about his car being damaged? 22 A: I suppose you can characterize that 23 as a property. 24 Q: No. I do not want to know how I can 25 characterize it. I'm just asking some questions so that
2271 I can try to get to the truth rather than to have you 2 spin the answers back to me. 3 A: Okay. Can you repeat your answer to 4 me then, I'm not sure -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 6 Yes, Ms. Jones -- 7 THE WITNESS: -- if I understand what 8 you're asking. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- go ahead. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 11 understand that sometimes when you're asking questions, 12 you can feel a little bit frustrated but nonetheless I 13 don't think that's an excuse to make snide comments about 14 a -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: -- witness that frankly 17 are quite unfair. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. You 19 still have to be respectful of a witness, regardless. 20 Yes, Mr. Ross. 21 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I do not propose to be 22 disrespectful of any witness. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. I know 24 you don't intend it, but -- 25
2281 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 2 Q: So, sir, if you'll just answer the 3 questions as, you know, and to the best of your ability. 4 So as far as the protection of property 5 was concerned, I take it that this was the driving force 6 before your taking the statement from Gerald George about 7 his car being struck? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And during that statement had you 10 heard that he had been struck. That's a step up from 11 property now. That's a personal assault. Would you have 12 taken that a little further? 13 A: I agree that would raise -- it would 14 raise threat level if he was assaulted. 15 Q: Sure. And would agree with me that a 16 higher threat still from a criminal perspective is if 17 people have got AK-47's and mini-Rugers in -- in the -- 18 Camp or in the Park? 19 A: Is it a higher level that there was 20 firearms -- 21 Q: A higher threat level. 22 A: Certainly that would increase the 23 threat level. 24 Q: Sure. And I take it, sir, that it 25 would be part of your duty to do something about it as a
2291 police officer? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And in that regard, could you tell me 4 what you did from a criminal law perspective, when you 5 understood from Gerald George that people had AK-47s and 6 mini -Rugers down in the Park/Camp area? 7 What did you do? 8 A: Well, I -- once I'd spoken with Mr. 9 George, I felt that he was being sincere. 10 Q: That I understand. 11 A: I then spoke with Detective Constable 12 Mark Dew. 13 Q: That I understand. 14 A: I then conveyed the -- the 15 information that I had at that time, I conveyed that to 16 Detective Mark Dew. 17 Q: Which you just told me. 18 A: Yeah. And from there, I had 19 confidence that he would -- he would follow it up. He 20 was a -- he was in the crime unit, he was a seasoned 21 investigator. I had full confidence that he would follow 22 up with that information, sir, and ensure that it was 23 passed up the food chain to reach the command staff. 24 Q: And are you satisfied that it -- that 25 it did go up the food chain and reach the command centre?
2301 A: I don't know what course it took 2 after I turned it over to Mark Dew. 3 Q: You didn't follow it up at all? 4 A: I don't believe it would be my role 5 to follow it up, no. 6 Q: I guess the short answer is no, you 7 didn't follow it up. 8 A: No, I did not. 9 Q: No. And not having followed it up 10 and when you recognized that nothing was being done about 11 it, did you inquire later about it? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 13 Jones...? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, he 15 never said he didn't know that nothing was being done 16 with it. What he has said is that he passed it on to a 17 senior officer. He had confidence that officer would do 18 whatever needed to be done and he didn't know what 19 happened about it further. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 21 what -- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: He never said anything 23 that is similar to what Mr. Ross is suggesting. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 25 think that's fair.
2311 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I can rephrase. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: The fun of the English 4 language. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 7 Q: And after you passed it up to Mark 8 Dew, are you aware of any action that was taken based on 9 your understanding of mini-Rugers and AK-47s in the Camp 10 or in the Park? 11 A: I am not aware of any action that was 12 taken, because that is not my place in the organization. 13 I passed the information on. I felt I was fulfilling my 14 duties to ensure that that information made it to a 15 member of a crime unit. 16 I then returned back to my checkpoint. 17 Q: I see. And after spending time at 18 your checkpoint and many days going by, did it appear to 19 you unusual that nothing was done about this -- would you 20 agree with me that these are prohibited weapons instead 21 of just merely restricted weapons? AK-47, mini-Ruger? 22 A: Actually, if they're a semi- 23 automatic, they're not prohibited. 24 Q: They're not? They are not restrict - 25 - they're not what?
2321 A: If they are a semi-automatic rifle, 2 at that time I don't believe that they were prohibited. 3 Q: I see. Restricted perhaps? 4 A: No. No, restricted, I think, would 5 apply to the handguns. If a mini-Ruger -- anyone could 6 buy a mini Ruger at that time because it was a -- it's a 7 semi-automatic rifle. 8 Q: Okay, fine, thank you. So if that 9 meant nothing was -- that nothing appeared to have been 10 done, that -- that didn't -- it was -- it didn't matter 11 to you? 12 A: You're asking me to speculate on 13 something I don't even know that happened. I -- I don't 14 know where the information went after I took it over to 15 Mark Dew. 16 I felt confident that the information 17 would be treated with some degree of respect and carried 18 up the food chain. As -- as far as commenting on how I 19 would feel about what was done, I don't know what was 20 done. 21 I have to have faith in the leadership, in 22 the organization that the information will be handled. 23 Q: We all have faith in leadership. 24 Anyway, sir, tell me, you said that when you went to the 25 Park with Les Kobayashi and Vince George, you were armed
2331 at that time? 2 A: I was armed, yes. 3 Q: With what? 4 A: My pistol. 5 Q: And you had night vision equipment, 6 right? 7 A: I had a night vision monocle, yes. 8 Q: Yes. Now, do you recall in your 9 written statement or in any statement that you've given, 10 you indicated that although there was a strong belief 11 that there were firearms -- that the occupiers had 12 firearms, there was no real expectation that they would 13 be turned on the police? 14 A: That was my personal thought on it. 15 Q: Yeah. But when you go down there 16 with Les Kobayashi and Vince George you are there, it's 17 after dark, with night vision, and you're there to 18 protect them. Am I correct with that? 19 A: I think that's fair, yes. 20 Q: And around the time of the removal of 21 the picnic tables you were there again, correct? 22 A: Yes. Yes. 23 Q: And again you were armed with a mini 24 Ruger? 25 A: When you say, "again"...
2341 Q: Sorry. Leave the word again out. 2 You were armed at that time with a mini Ruger? 3 A: I was armed with a mini Ruger, with - 4 - when we were there for the picnic tables, yes. 5 Q: Now, would it be fair to say that for 6 whatever reason there appeared to have been a police 7 mindset that there was going to be confrontation with the 8 occupiers? For whatever reason? 9 A: I'm not sure if I understand your 10 question, what -- 11 Q: Well, then I'll me rephrase it. I'll 12 put it a different way. I'm going to suggest to you that 13 with the occupation of the Park on the 4th of September 14 and the confrontation late the night of the 4th of 15 September, that provoked within the OPP a sense of 16 confrontation between themselves and the occupiers. 17 Am I correct or am I wrong? 18 A: I think you're asking me to 19 generalize on an entire organization comprised of over 20 five thousand (5,000) people. 21 Q: I will narrow it down. I will narrow 22 it down. The OPP in the Forest area that you were part 23 of? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not a 25 very narrow down I think this Witness can answer.
2351 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Pardon me? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 3 should confine it to this Witness. That's still not 4 narrow enough for him to be able to answer with any 5 degree of accuracy or -- 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: That's fine. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 8 assistance to us. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 11 Q: Well, let's whittle it down a little 12 further. 13 Around September 1995 you were part of 14 what unit operating out of which detachment? 15 A: I was based out of the Grand 16 Bend/Sombra Detachment. That would have ended by the 17 long weekend. 18 Q: It would have ended on the 4th of 19 September? 20 A: Yes, and then I would revert back to 21 being based out of the Petrolia Detachment. 22 Q: I see. And as far as the incidents 23 that were occurring at the Park and the Camp area was 24 concerned it was headed by who? Who was in -- you had a 25 -- a CMU. There -- there was a command -- there was ERT
2361 and CMU units that were looking -- were monitoring the 2 situation? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 4 help? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 7 put the facts -- 8 MS. KAREN JONES: -- there -- there 9 weren't ERT and CMU units September the 4th there were 10 ERT units that were there. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: But he could have 12 answered that. I mean -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we 14 just -- when you put evidence to him -- you put it to him 15 and you didn't put it to him correctly. 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No, Commissioner, with 17 respect I put a question to him, not evidence. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no, but 19 you put it to him in such a way that suggests putting 20 facts to him and the facts are inaccurate, so I think Ms. 21 Jones is just correcting the factual basis of your 22 question. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 25 Q: Was there an ERT unit that was
2371 addressing the situation at the Camp or at the Park on or 2 around the 5th of September, 1995? 3 A: 5th of -- the 5th of September I -- 4 Q: That was the Tuesday? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: I'd say -- is that the day that the 9 Park was -- the first day the Park was taken over? 10 Q: No, that was Monday. Monday -- 11 A: It was Monday? 12 Q: -- was the holiday. 13 A: Tuesday was when the notice was 14 served I believe, correct? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Yes. There was a small number of ERT 17 officers that acted as security for Les Kobayashi and 18 Vince George, and I believe there was -- there was a 19 small number of officers there and that was my role with 20 the night vision equipment to scan the area. 21 Q: Which brings me back to the question 22 again, would you agree with me that with all that had 23 been happening, here you've got the situation with Les 24 and Vince, Les Kobayashi and Vince George and you're 25 there with night vision equipment, you've got the
2381 situation with the picnic tables, we know what happened 2 the night when the police vehicle was damaged. 3 Would you agree me with that the -- the 4 police -- that your group was anticipating a 5 confrontation with the occupiers? 6 A: I -- I will answer your question, 7 sir, based on my own -- my own feeling or my own 8 perceptions. I can't speak to the entire organization. 9 If you would like I can address it from my 10 own point of view. I can't -- I can't speak for everyone 11 else. 12 Q: Well, why don't you just answer then? 13 Tell us what was your view. 14 A: My personal view was that, yes, 15 tensions had started to increase. Had it reached a point 16 where I thought it was beyond any help, no. 17 I mean one -- one initial attempt that I 18 was part of when Les Kobayashi and Vince George 19 approached the gate, that was only one (1) attempt. I -- 20 I didn't think that things were so -- so tense that there 21 couldn't be continued -- continued negotiations or 22 dialogue. 23 Q: But I guess the bottom line is that 24 you weren't hopeful that it was going to be resolved by 25 dialogue.
2391 A: Sorry, I wasn't -- I was hopeful? 2 Q: That you -- you did not anticipate 3 that it would be -- it would be resolved by dialogue? 4 A: I don't know that I would 5 characterize it in that fashion, no. There's -- there's 6 always -- I think there's always hope that -- 7 Q: I know that there's always hope. 8 A: -- negotiations -- 9 Q: I know that there's always hope, 10 Officer, but I'm asking you -- I'm saying to you, you 11 were part of the ER -- the Emergency Response Team? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: You were involved in the situation? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: The way that it had been sort of, 16 ratcheting up, would you agree with me that it was 17 ratcheting itself up to a confrontation rather than 18 normalization? 19 I'm not looking at fault. I'm looking for 20 the fact. 21 A: I -- I don't know that I can agree 22 with that if was -- 23 Q: Okay. Fine. That's good enough. 24 Now you indicate further that on the night of the 6th of 25 September, when you went down to -- when your group went
2401 down along Matheson Drive, down near the Park area, that 2 you could actually -- sorry. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again it -- 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No, no, please go 5 ahead. Go ahead. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no, it's 7 okay. She's just trying to be helpful, Mr. Ross. She's 8 trying to make sure the facts are straight. 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well, I'll tell you 10 something. Thank -- thank you very kindly, Mr. 11 Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's all. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 15 Q: Down in the Park area, you indicated 16 that you could see Roderick George? 17 A: Yes. Roderick, Judas. Yes. 18 Q: Yep. And a result of the fact that 19 there was artificial lighting available? 20 A: There was. 21 Q: So you could see him clearly and you 22 could hear him? 23 A: Well there was -- there was also -- I 24 could see him, yes. I could certainly hear him. He has 25 a fairly loud voice but there was also a -- a barrel
2411 burning which was throwing off some light too. And he 2 was standing near the -- the barrel. It was -- had some 3 wood burning in it. 4 Q: Okay. But apart from the barrel that 5 was burning, was there other artificial light? 6 A: I recall two (2) artificial light 7 stands. 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: The lighting was certainly -- it 10 wasn't the greatest, no. 11 Q: Now you're confusing me because your 12 evidence was that there was some artificial lighting and 13 then you said that you could see and you could hear 14 Judas. 15 And I'm just trying to find out from you 16 about this artificial lighting. Now was the artificial 17 lighting solely from the barrel that was burning or other 18 artificial lighting that was available? 19 A: There was a light standard or there 20 were light standards along that stretch. 21 Q: I see. And that's where the 22 artificial lighting was coming from? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yeah. Okay. Now you were also asked 25 about shield chatter. And as I recall your evidence you
2421 indicated that to the best of your recollection, there 2 was no shield chatter because it was suppose to be a 3 quiet move down into that area? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And again, with respect to 6 Cecil Bernard George, you indicated that at one stage, 7 you had to physically move two (2) officers out of your 8 way? 9 A: That is correct. 10 Q: Had he been under arrest at that 11 point? 12 A: I don't know that he was under arrest 13 at that point, no. 14 Q: Do you know if he was ever formally 15 put under arrest? 16 A: I don't know that. I can say that I 17 didn't. I didn't witness any officer formally arrest 18 him. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: So around that time that he got this 23 quick snap kick in his -- where was it, in his stomach 24 area? 25 A: Yes, I believe it was in the mid-
2431 section. 2 Q: Yeah. Around that time, was he under 3 arrest, do you know? 4 A: I don't know if he was under arrest, 5 sir. 6 Q: Okay. And there was some suggestion 7 that while all this was going on, projectiles were 8 raining down on everybody. 9 A: Yes, they were. 10 Q: Were you struck? 11 A: I don't have a recollection of being 12 struck but my focus was on the task at hand and getting 13 that man secured and getting him out. 14 Q: So if, in fact, you were struck, you 15 weren't struck so very hard that you recall it at this 16 point? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: And it does not appear in any of your 19 statements that you were struck. 20 A: No, I didn't mention that. 21 Q: Would it be reasonable to conclude 22 that you were not struck? 23 A: I can't say that with absolute 24 certainty. I mean, it's -- it's kind of like being in a 25 -- if I can say, it's like in a hockey game. You don't
2441 necessarily feel the spots where you've been slashed or 2 you've been hit until afterwards. 3 Well, I didn't -- I don't recall feeling 4 anything at that time. My -- my mind was focussed on -- 5 it was -- it was a dangerous situation and I felt I 6 needed to get that man under control and get him out of 7 there; that's what my focus was. I wasn't paying 8 attention to projectiles. I was aware they were raining 9 down, certainly. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. Now, when you were sitting 11 around as a matter of fact you -- you gave your statement 12 on the 7th at around 11:00 a.m. 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Is it -- tell me the environment? 15 Were -- is it that you and a lot of other officers were 16 sitting together waiting to be called in or were you in 17 an isolated room? 18 A: No. I was sitting in the garage of 19 the Forest Detachment, leaning against the wall. And I 20 know Mark Zacher was also leaning against the wall with 21 me and there certainly could have been other officers 22 there as well. 23 Q: And some coming and going? 24 A: Certainly there could have been. 25 Q: No, I'm asking you, because I wasn't
2451 there. 2 A: I -- I don't recall that. that's -- 3 as I said, I was -- I was pretty much -- I was half 4 asleep against the wall. I wasn't -- 5 Q: Was -- 6 A: -- watching what was -- who was 7 coming and going. 8 Q: Was there any discussion about what 9 had taken place the night before? 10 A: No, we didn't talk about it. 11 Q: Everybody just sitting quiet? 12 A: We just leaned against the wall and - 13 - with our eyes closed. 14 Q: I see. Coming back to Gerald George 15 for a minute, you took charge of Gerald George at some 16 point; is that correct? 17 A: Gerald George? 18 Q: Sorry. Cecil Bernard George. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: And -- 22 Q: And around the time that you took 23 charge of him I understand that there -- there appeared 24 to be two (2) problems; one of them is the fact they 25 found some blood under his nose?
2461 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yeah. Was he speaking to you at that 3 time? 4 A: No, he was not speaking. 5 Q: You were speaking to him, though, 6 weren't you? 7 A: I was. 8 Q: Yes. Was he responding in any way? 9 A: The way that he responded was that he 10 stopped struggling when I spoke to him, while he was 11 being searched. 12 Q: I see. So he appeared as though he 13 could understand you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And although he was not speaking, 16 there was still some communication level? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: I see. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: You said there was an expectation 23 that he would be given medical assistance. Did you know 24 whether or not in fact medical assistance was given by 25 the two (2) paramedic crews that were on standby at the
2471 TOC? 2 A: I learned after the fact that medical 3 attention was sought out, yes. 4 Q: Was sought out. So -- so do -- do 5 you know who were these two (2) paramedic -- who was -- 6 who comprised them? 7 A: I don't know who the paramedic 8 officers were. 9 Q: I see. Now, as far as Lacroix is 10 concerned do you recall how many shots he fired? 11 A: No, I do not. 12 Q: I see. But you said that he was 13 firing from a revolver? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: That's the one, I understand, with 16 the rotating barrel? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: As opposed to a semi-automatic? 19 A: Correct. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: There's one (1) little other concern 24 I've got. Around the time you were taking this statement 25 from Gerald George you restricted the statement to the
2481 damage to property? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Yeah. Is there any reason why you 4 didn't take another statement with respect to the 5 information about the AK-47's, the mini-Ruger 14's, and 6 the hunting rifles? 7 A: Yes, there is a reason for that. I 8 felt that I was giving the information to an experienced 9 officer, Mark Dew -- 10 Q: I'm going to get -- I promise I'll 11 get to Mark Dew, but I'm just asking, before you got up 12 to Mark Dew you are the -- 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Again, Mr. 14 Commissioner, I am sorry to interrupt but this Witness is 15 giving an answer -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: -- about that -- that 18 he's asked a question about why didn't you take another 19 statement? He's answering the question. He ought to be 20 given a chance to fully answer the question. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Once again I 22 think you're right, Ms. Jones. I think the Witness has 23 got to be able to answer the questions that you ask the 24 way he answers them. 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well, the only thing,
2491 Mr. Commissioner, I guess the answer one gets is how you 2 characterize the questions so I'll remember that. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 5 Q: Before the intervention of Mark Dew 6 you were speaking with Gerald George, correct? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And at that time Gerald George was 9 giving you information about guns in the Park or in the 10 Camp, correct? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And at that time you could have taken 13 a separate statement from him with respect to the guns; 14 is that correct? 15 A: Well, I will -- I will disagree with 16 you on that. 17 Q: Okay, fine. So you -- you could not 18 have taken a statement from him? 19 A: I could have, but I'd like to explain 20 my answer though, sir, why I didn't. 21 Q: But just remember, you know, I'm 22 still asking you before Mark Dew got involved, okay? 23 Before the introduction of Mark Dew, when just you and 24 Gerald George are together, right? 25 So it's you and Gerald George. He tells
2501 you about the vehicle, are you taking a statement, right? 2 A: Yes, I took the statement in regards 3 to the vehicle. 4 Q: And he's volunteering information 5 about guns; is that correct? 6 A: Yes, he did. 7 Q: And you could have taken a separate 8 statement about guns, correct? 9 A: That is one (1) option. 10 Q: Okay, it's an option. But you did 11 not exercise that separate option? 12 A: No, I did not. 13 Q: And you didn't have to fish for 14 information from him with respect to the guns, correct? 15 A: How would you characterize fishing 16 for information? 17 Q: He was volunteering this information 18 about the guns; is that correct? 19 A: Yes, he did volunteer the 20 information. 21 Q: I see. But you elected not to take a 22 second statement? 23 A: That's true. 24 Q: And now, perhaps you'll tell us why. 25 You wanted to talk about Mark Dew, here's your
2511 opportunity, sir. 2 A: Actually I think I might back up one 3 (1) step and you wondered -- you asked me earlier why I 4 didn't take a second statement from Mr. George. I'd like 5 to answer that, if I may? 6 Q: Please feel free. 7 A: To take a second statement with his 8 name on it, I think would be counterproductive to keeping 9 the -- handling the information from an intelligence 10 perspective. I think it would clearly show where the 11 information came from. 12 And I would -- I would say that it's not 13 normal practice to assign -- to take a statement with 14 someone's name and information on it as it relates to 15 that sort of intelligence information. 16 That is a reason that I passed it over to 17 Mark Dew. I felt that he had more experience in dealing 18 with the intelligence information. 19 Q: And are you aware, sir, that at a 20 later date, Gerald George took the position that he did 21 not tell you about guns in the Park? 22 A: Yes, I have heard that. 23 Q: I see. And I guess you will agree 24 with me that if you had a second statement, there'll be 25 no dispute about what he said to you?
2521 A: I suppose he -- there wouldn't be as 2 much a dispute. 3 Q: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now I know 5 you would want me to remind you, Mr. Ross, that you're at 6 your time estimate. 7 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you very much, 8 Mr. Commissioner. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 11 Q: Just to so -- so that I -- I do not 12 go on for too much longer, under Tab 14, there's a text 13 of a radio transmission. 14 Now have you been following -- have been 15 following this -- these -- these Inquiry Hearings? 16 A: No, sir. I chose not to watch them. 17 Q: I see. So were you aware of any 18 statements in which any police officer was suggesting 19 that some other group is putting together an army with 20 respect to the occu -- to -- to oppose the occupiers? 21 You never heard of any of that? 22 A: I've -- I've never heard of this. 23 Q: I see. And when in this statement 24 which appears under Tab 14, in the last line and it says 25 here:
2531 "You know what I'm after, okay?" 2 Now let's put this into context. Here is 3 a situation in which you got a complaint from Gerald 4 George. Correct so far? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: Yeah. And you speak at that time to 7 Mark Wright, correct? 8 A: Actually I don't believe it was my 9 voice on the transmission there. I think it might have 10 been Mark Zacher's. 11 Q: I see and he was your partner? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And he was aware of the circumstances 14 with Gerald George? 15 A: Yes, he was. 16 Q: So this was being communicated to 17 Mark Wright? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And Mark Wright is telling you: 20 "Well you know what I'm after, okay?" 21 I'm going to suggest to you, that at that 22 time the OPP was looking for a reason to employ force 23 with respect to the occupiers. 24 Is that a fair corre -- is that a correct 25 statement?
2541 A: Well I -- I think that is a gross 2 mistake and -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 4 minute. This is the OPP -- 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry. Mr. -- Mr. 6 Commissioner, it's the same as the earlier questions. 7 How can this Witness say what's in the mind of the OPP as 8 though it is -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the OPP 10 is doing -- 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: But -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: -- a mind that he has 13 access to? He's being asked to speculate about others 14 views and he's here to talk about what he did, what he 15 saw, what he observed, and what he knew. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 17 way it -- 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: The only problem is 19 that he had already answered the question. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, no he 21 hasn't. But that's fine. I mean -- 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Oh you say he hasn't? 23 Well, then perhaps he hasn't then. Thank you very much, 24 Mr. Commissioner. Those are my questions. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you,
2551 Mr. Ross. 2 Yes, Ms. Johnson...? 3 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Good afternoon, 4 sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 afternoon. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 9 Q: My name is Colleen Johnson. I 10 represent the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point and I'm 11 here today as well for the Chiefs of Ontario. I have a 12 couple of areas that I'd like to ask you questions about. 13 You indicated that you were one of the 14 officers who provided cover for Vince George and Les 15 Kobayashi when they entered the Park earlier in that day; 16 is that correct? 17 A: Yes, ma'am. 18 Q: And you indicated that you were 19 fairly close and could hear a conversation with the 20 parties; is that correct? 21 A: Yeah, I could hear parts of the 22 conversation, certainly. 23 Q: I believe you indicated on your 24 examination-in-chief that they were told by one of the 25 protesters that they don't do business at night time.
2561 A: I think that was the general gist of 2 it, yes. 3 Q: Okay. You did not hear any voices 4 raised; is that correct? 5 A: No, no it was very subdued. 6 Q: A civil conversation? 7 A: Yes, it was. 8 Q: One or two (2) people in there, I 9 believe you said? 10 A: Yes, that's what I recall. 11 Q: Would you agree that you did not 12 perceive any threat at that time? 13 A: I didn't perceive any threat, no. 14 Q: Would you agree that your presence 15 there that evening was simply the way that things are 16 done, it was -- it was not because there was a 17 significant threat, but simply because you provide cover 18 for your officers as a matter of course? 19 A: Yes. And again, you're -- I'll -- 20 there's two (2) thrusts to that question. On the last 21 part, is that a -- a fairly standard way to -- to provide 22 cover? Yes. I think that's an appropriate use of 23 resources that way to make an officer has someone else 24 looking out for him. 25 On the first aspect, I can't address the
2571 threat level. I don't know on that. I know what I was 2 told to do and I was told to go there and -- and monitor 3 the situation which I did and, as you've stated, I didn't 4 think there was any issues. 5 Q: My question really was about it being 6 fairly standard cover and it was fairly standard 7 procedure? 8 A: I don't know that the situation 9 itself was standard, ma'am. 10 It was a little unusual, really, to -- to 11 have two (2) people walking up at -- to conduct 12 negotiations. I don't think that's something that we 13 experience a great deal of. I think -- 14 Q: Because it was in night time? 15 A: At any time. That was -- it's not 16 something we normally encounter, but as far as placing 17 officers nearby to watch out -- watch the area for safety 18 reasons, yes, I certainly agree with that. 19 Q: Okay. Would you agree that Vincent 20 George didn't exhibit any undue concern about entering 21 the Park? 22 A: I didn't speak with Vince George 23 about -- about his concerns. 24 Q: He certainly appeared to be going 25 into the Park willingly?
2581 A: Yeah, I don't think there was -- I'm 2 not sure how far they went in. You speak about going in. 3 I don't know their exact positions and I -- I certainly 4 can't speak to the -- you know, someone else's mindset. 5 It didn't appear to me as an outside 6 observer that there were concerns. As you say, the 7 voices weren't raised; it seemed fairly civil. I can say 8 that much. 9 Q: Now, you indicate -- do you know 10 Vince George at all, or did you at that time? 11 A: I do. I think I've met him several 12 times. I would say that I know him a little bit, yes. 13 Q: Because you indicated initially in 14 examination in-chief that -- simply that it was a First 15 Nations officer and then you were reminded of who he was. 16 A: Yes, that's correct. 17 Q: Would you agree that it was 18 significant that a First Nations officer be involved at 19 that point in time? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Or, perhaps, helpful is a better 24 word? 25 Q: Perhaps, yes. Helpful would be --
2591 would be, of course, and again you're talking about 2 something that decisions that were made well above 3 myself. 4 So I -- I don't think it would be fair for 5 me to try and attribute motive or -- or procedure to 6 someone far above myself in the chain of command. 7 Q: That's fine and I'm not asking you 8 to. But from your perception did it seem helpful to have 9 a First Nations officer involved? 10 A: I think, yes, I think it would be 11 reasonable. 12 Q: Would you agree that there were 13 difficulties ongoing at that point in time in 14 communicating with the protesters? 15 A: Again, I don't -- 16 Q: From your perception? 17 A: I don't know. I wasn't involved in 18 negotiation process. I really don't know what was going 19 on in that respect. 20 This was my first exposure to it and 21 beyond that I -- I really don't know. 22 Q: But certainly you knew that there was 23 a difficulty in communicating with the protesters? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2601 A: I really -- that's -- that is not 2 something that we're always included in. 3 Q: But you were there, sir. You were at 4 a checkpoint? 5 A: Yes, I was at a checkpoint, yes. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: But you're asking me to comment on 8 the status of the -- or the status of ongoing 9 negotiations and I simply can't comment on that because I 10 wasn't privy to the negotiation process. 11 Q: I'm not talking about negotiations, 12 I'm talking about the real situation at that point in 13 time and I'm not trying to trick you. It was a standoff, 14 is that correct, and there was no ongoing communication 15 as far as you knew? 16 A: I'm really not trying to be difficult 17 here, ma'am, I just -- I don't know what the status of 18 negotiations were. If you want me to answer all I'm 19 doing is guessing by saying that. I really -- I was not 20 privy to the negotiation process. 21 Q: Okay. And I -- 22 A: I would suspect if I was in the 23 Command Post then I would have a much firmer grasp on 24 what exactly was being done. 25 Q: All right.
2611 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he's 2 answered your question. 3 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: That's fine. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As far as 5 you know you asked him and he said he didn't know. 6 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I'm not referring 7 specifically to the negotiation process. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. No, but 9 he doesn't know so he said that. 10 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: That's fine. 11 That's fine. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 15 Q: With regards to the information from 16 Gerald George now you're at the checkpoint and he pulls 17 up and he's examining his car, is that correct? 18 A: I don't know that he was examining 19 the car. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: He communicated the fact that the 22 vehicle was -- 23 Q: Well, he pulls up first of all -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- in a car?
2621 A: Yes, he did. 2 Q: And he gets out, is that correct? Do 3 you recall? 4 A: I don't recall if he got out or not. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: It's quite possible he did. I know 7 it was communicated to me that the vehicle was damaged. 8 Q: All right. So it comes to your 9 attention that there's been some damage to his vehicle? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: You have him pull into a bit more 12 secluded spot? 13 A: Well, initially I -- I tried to start 14 the interview right on the road basically -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- or just on the roadside basically. 17 That -- that wasn't such a good idea after I noticed that 18 cars were driving up and down inside the Army Camp -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: -- at a fairly good rate of speed. 21 That is when I suggested that we move it into the trailer 22 park a little bit. 23 Q: Okay. And at some point you 24 communicate that information to Mark Wright, is that 25 correct?
2631 A: I think there was some transmissions 2 that I was still in the process of obtaining the 3 statement and I was being contacted but I don't think my 4 radio was working there. 5 All I know is I kept -- I was being asked 6 about the statement and I wasn't finished the statement. 7 Q: Well, you heard Mark Wright tell you 8 to go ahead and take the statement, is that correct? 9 A: Yes. Yes, I do recall that. 10 Q: Okay. And he makes a comment from 11 Tab 14 and you've -- it's been brought to your attention 12 already: 13 "You know what I'm after."? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Okay. And you indicated in 16 examination-in-chief that you took that to mean could he 17 identify certain people? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Okay. I'm going to submit to you, 20 sir, that there were difficulties in communicating with 21 anybody inside of that Camp and so having a First Nations 22 person there who was willing to give a statement 23 regarding some mischief was very convenient and that when 24 Mark Wright indicated, You know what I'm after, that he 25 was indicating he wanted intelligence from this
2641 individual regarding the people in the Camp? 2 A: That's not the inference I took from 3 it. When the -- it was communicated that there was a 4 mischief complaint, I believe that's what Mark Zacher 5 communicated there was a mischief complaint and roughly 6 where it had taken place. 7 Q: And you very appropriately took the 8 mischief complaint? 9 A: Yeah, I'm just -- I was just going to 10 finish what my -- what I -- You know what I'm after. 11 The -- the first thing in my mind was that 12 can you identify who the suspect was? 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: That's first and foremost. Is there 15 a criminal offence? Yes. Is there a suspect? 16 You have to have those -- you have to have 17 those two (2) options certainly and that's -- that's what 18 I inferred from the message. 19 Q: And so you proceeded to take the 20 complaint? 21 A: I did. 22 Q: To make the statement -- to help him 23 make the statement? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And it's fair, of what you indicated,
2651 that you would not include in that statement, something 2 that wasn't relative to the -- to the criminal charge -- 3 or relevant rather, to the criminal charge? 4 A: I -- I think the firearms was a -- a 5 special issue. 6 Q: It was in the side. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You were interested in getting a 9 statement regarding the criminal offense? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. So you did that. But would 12 you not agree with me, sir, that it also would have been 13 appropriate to make a separate notation in your notebook 14 that there had been a second area of information 15 forthcoming from this individual? 16 A: I don't agree that it would be 17 appropriate and I'll explain why, if I may? 18 If I was to put a notation in my notebook 19 right after speaking with this gentleman, I think it 20 would be abundantly clear who was providing the 21 information. That is a reason I talked with Detective 22 Mark Dew and said here's information I have, I left them 23 to have their conversation having confidence that informa 24 -- that information would be processed and -- and moved 25 up the food chain.
2661 Q: Have you ever taken statements from 2 anonymous sources in the past? 3 A: I have talked with confidential 4 informants and anonymous sources. 5 Q: And have you -- is your process to 6 then dedact from your notes the name of that individual? 7 A: No. I would not put anything in my 8 notebook as to the conversation. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: The person would be -- 11 Q: Would you at least make notation that 12 there had been a conversation? 13 A: There would be a start and an end 14 time and a number assigned to that individual. 15 Q: Would you agree that you did not do 16 that in this case? 17 A: Oh I certainly did not do it, no. 18 Q: Would you agree that it might have 19 been appropriate to do that? 20 A: Again, if I put it in my notebook 21 there would be no protection for this individual. It 22 would be very clear. The reason I did what I did is I 23 shared that information with the Detective knowing that 24 there's a separation. 25 When he puts down the information that he
2671 receives from Gerald George, there's no connection back 2 to my formal statement. There wouldn't be a connection 3 from him to me. 4 Q: So you simply handing him over; 5 handing your responsibility with regards to maintaining 6 notes of your activities that day. You were handing that 7 portion of that day the responsibility of that over to 8 another officer? 9 A: I don't know if I would characterize 10 that I'm handing over my responsibility. I think I was 11 being responsible in looking out for his interests in 12 trying to protect the information flow. That was my 13 motivation; was, yes we've got this information, how do I 14 process information -- this information now without it 15 coming back on him? 16 That was my -- that was my motivation. 17 Q: Okay. During the statement that was 18 made to you, did you enquire at all from Mr. George as to 19 when he had last been in the Camp? 20 A: I don't believe I did. 21 Q: Did you enquire at all whether or not 22 he had been in the Park or when the last time he had been 23 in the Park was? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Do you recall when you first spoke
2681 with Detective Dew -- you indicated that you were pretty 2 close within earshot of Gerald George; is that correct? 3 A: Yeah. I think we were -- we were 4 standing very close together. It was no -- there was no 5 secrets. 6 Q: Would you agree that Gerald George 7 was still in the car at that point in time? 8 A: I believe he was reviewing his 9 statement. 10 Q: So he was seated in the driver's seat 11 still? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. Do you recall -- now you 14 indicated that you thought that Detective Dew had 15 civilian clothes on? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you recall if he had a book in his 18 hand? 19 A: I don't recall a book, no. 20 Q: Mr. George has testified that he was 21 shown a book of photos of persons who were in the Camp 22 and asked to identify them. 23 Do you recall seeing any such book on that 24 evening or at any time? 25 A: No, I didn't, ma'am.
2691 Q: Is it possible that Detective Dew sat 2 in the car to take the information from Gerald George? 3 A: It -- it's possible. I really didn't 4 pay attention once -- once I'd passed over the 5 information. I then left and I returned to the 6 checkpoint. 7 Q: Now, did Gerald George talk to you 8 about his own activities of hunting? 9 A: It's possible. I don't -- I don't 10 recall that, though. 11 Q: In fact, you also don't have anything 12 to refresh your memory, because you didn't make any 13 notations of that situation at all; is that correct? 14 A: I didn't make any notation, but those 15 are the sort of details I don't think that fade terribly 16 fast. It's -- it was very distinctive. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: It has been eleven (11) years. 21 A: It has indeed. But, as I say, it's - 22 - those -- that information that was relayed to me, it's 23 not a common occurrence when someone suggests to you that 24 these type of weapons are in the -- in that location. 25 And that's -- nothing has changed on that.
2701 The way that he rhymed off the -- the guns and you know, 2 the size of the magazines and they were duct taped, I 3 mean, he -- he convinced me that he knew his firearms. 4 Q: And I don't think anybody would 5 dispute that he -- he knows about firearms. 6 What is, however, in dispute is to what 7 exactly the conversation was that day. And would you 8 agree with me, sir, that officers use their notes and 9 sometimes in their testimony their testimony will be 10 slightly different from what their notes are, and that 11 it's the notes that are right? 12 A: I think the notes are there to 13 refresh the officer's memory and can there be slight 14 variations? Absolutely. I did so myself today. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now, at Tab 31, sir, this is an 19 interview of Sergeant Wright and he just -- he indicates 20 that he was told that there was a -- a civilian had 21 attended their point and had just come around the curve, 22 became involved in apparently a verbal confrontation and 23 his -- with those Natives and that his vehicle had 24 sustained damage. 25 In the report to Sergeant Wright, would
2711 you have indicated that this was a First Nations person 2 you were talking to? 3 Do you recall? 4 A: I don't think that would have been 5 relevant. I mean it's -- it's quite simply -- it's a 6 mischief complaint and that's the bottom line. 7 Q: Okay. And do you recall would you 8 have indicated that it was his sister's car? 9 A: Yes, he did mention it was his 10 sister's vehicle and that's -- he was upset about that. 11 Q: Okay. And at Tab 19, on page 74 of 12 that tab, the entry at 20:19 hours, you indicated that 13 that was a typo, "suspects" with an 's' should have been 14 singular? 15 A: Yes. There was only one (1) person 16 identified. 17 Q: But apparently somebody heard it as 18 more than one, whether it's the typist -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that a 20 question? You have to put it in a form of a question. 21 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 23 put in the form of a -- 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON:
2721 Q: I'm asking you, is it possible that 2 somebody heard it as more than one (1), the difference 3 between suspect and suspects? 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, Can 5 it possibly help you to have this witness speculate -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How could he 7 answer? 8 MS. KAREN JONES: -- what somebody else 9 might possibly have done. 10 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Mr. Commissioner, 11 you have a great deal of disparity between what was 12 reported and what was taken by other persons. This blows 13 up into a situation with a non-Native woman being 14 attacked by Native people. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I 16 understand that. It's important. But He can't say what 17 the other person -- I mean, all he could say was that it 18 looked like a plural and he thought it should be a 19 singular -- 20 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- based on 22 his experience. 23 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: My concern is that 24 it may not be simply a typo. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, then
2731 you have to ask a question in a way that this Witness can 2 somehow help you. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 5 Q: Is it possible that that's not just a 6 typo, that someone else heard it as suspect? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 8 possible? Is that your question? 9 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Yes. 10 THE WITNESS: Anything's possible, ma'am. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 12 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Thank you. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 15 Q: Moving on to another area, sir. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: You're in the -- and I'm moving to 20 the night when you -- when you marched down the road, 21 September 6th, and you're in the rear formation, the 22 Arrest Squad; is that correct? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Okay. And you've indicated that 25 there were projectiles being thrown; is that correct?
2741 A: That's correct, yes. 2 Q: And you saw somebody -- initially you 3 see the burning garbage can, is that correct, a fire -- 4 I'm sorry. 5 A: Yeah, there was a fire in like a big 6 -- a big steel drum. 7 Q: Right. Okay. In the big steel drum. 8 And you see individuals there. You see a couple of 9 individuals? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And there are other officers 12 in front of you, correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you're with the squad without 15 shields; is that correct? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Okay. So you're at the very back? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Of the formation? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. But you still are able to 22 view the people, the Native people, up near the fence 23 line, correct? 24 A: The -- the people that I can or the 25 person that I can see, that I was comfortable who I could
2751 say it was -- was Roderick George. 2 Q: Okay. But you see him beyond the 3 officers in front of you? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And you see the steel drum 6 beyond the officers in front of you? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, you see the first punchout; is 9 that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then does the formation come back 12 into where they should be? 13 A: The -- the punchout wasn't the whole 14 -- the whole unit -- 15 Q: Right. 16 A: -- so yes, that aspect came back; 17 that -- that part came back. 18 Q: Okay. And then the formation was 19 back in to the way it should be? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And then there's contact made 22 on the second or you thought perhaps third punchout? 23 A: I -- I think there is a potential for 24 contact at any -- at any time they were coming forward. 25 When -- when I saw the results directly of a contact was
2761 on the third time when the whole unit moved forward as 2 one (1). 3 Q: Okay. And what contact do you see 4 initially there? 5 A: Perhaps, I -- I mis-phrased. I -- I 6 see the results. Or sorry, do you want me to answer the 7 -- what contact I see when the whole unit is moving 8 forward? 9 Q: Well, we've heard testimony from Wade 10 Lacroix that -- that he -- he made contact with an 11 individual. Were you able to see that? 12 A: No, I can't say that I saw that. 13 Q: You were able to see when Wade 14 Lacroix discharged his revolver; is that correct? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Okay. You did not see when his 17 shield was broken? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: Were you able to see officers with 20 their batons out? 21 A: No. No, I don't recall that. I'm 22 sure -- I -- I can't say -- I can't see them, I mean 23 they're black. I couldn't see them. 24 Q: The officers are dressed in black, 25 that's correct?
2771 A: No, actually they'd be dressed in 2 grey. 3 Q: Okay, I'm sorry. 4 A: But the gear on top would be black. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: But can I see -- can I say that I saw 7 batons deployed? I -- I can't say that 100 percent, no. 8 Q: Okay. So you don't see batons being 9 used? 10 A: No. No, I don't. I can -- I can say 11 that would be the tactic if someone was in that close but 12 I -- I can't -- 13 Q: That's fine, I'm just asking what you 14 were able to witness that evening. Now as the contact is 15 being made, what is your unit doing? Your -- your part 16 of the unit? The Arrest Squad? 17 A: The Arrest Squad is -- is to as the 18 name implies, arrest anyone that is still -- 19 Q: But what physically are you doing? 20 The Arrest Squad, initially? 21 A: We would move forward with the team. 22 Q: Okay. And what do you see as you're 23 moving forward? 24 A: My attention was drawn slightly to my 25 right and I saw -- I saw two (2) officers and through
2781 that I would -- I saw as I came closer, I saw a man on 2 his side and he was on the ground. 3 Q: And this is the man that eventually 4 you carried away? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: You did not see any officers strike 7 this individual with batons? 8 A: No, I did not. 9 Q: You saw one (1) kick and that was 10 all? 11 A: I did see one (1) kick, yes. 12 Q: You have a pretty good view of that 13 situation at that point in time, would you agree? 14 A: I would say I have an obstructed view 15 to the point where I had to physically separate two (2) 16 officers that were standing by him that were in my way to 17 get there. 18 Q: You indicated that you have learned 19 after that medical attention had been provided; is that 20 correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: To that individual. Did you learn 23 later of the seriousness of his injuries? 24 A: I don't know what the description of 25 all his injuries are. I know I read the -- the SIU
2791 report into it and there was some detail in there. 2 Q: And what was that detail that you 3 recall? 4 A: I can't recall the exact wording of 5 the SIU report. I know I did -- I did read it once. 6 Q: That's fine. What's the gist of it 7 that you recall? 8 A: I would -- I would prefer to go and 9 have it read or examined the SIU report so there's no 10 contradictions with the SIU report. I don't want -- I 11 don't wish to contradict a report already in writing. 12 Q: Is it your impression that -- that 13 the man was severely beaten? 14 A: I don't think I can characterize it 15 as that. 16 Q: How would you characterize it? 17 A: I think I would refresh my memory and 18 read the SIU report. What I can speak to is that I saw a 19 fat lip, I saw what appeared to me to be a bloody nose. 20 I saw a small amount of blood around the lip and around 21 the nostril area. That's what I can say that I saw as 22 far as injuries. 23 Q: And you did not see anybody other 24 than one (1) person kick him? 25 A: No, I did not.
2801 Q: Do you have any knowledge of who the 2 officers were that were around him? 3 A: No I don't. 4 Q: Do you have any knowledge of what 5 squad they were from? Were they from the left or the 6 right or the Contact Squad? 7 A: I -- I don't know who it would have 8 been, ma'am. 9 Q: And yet you can identify that it was 10 Lacroix that fired his pistol? 11 A: Because I was standing right beside 12 him. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And there was a somewhat unique 15 feature in his sidearm. 16 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 17 that -- well, first I'll indicate that Dr. Mars 18 testimony, who's one of the doctors that examined Cecil 19 Bernard George at the hospital, she indicates that there 20 were twenty-eight (28) injuries which were consistent 21 with blunt force trauma including some that were 22 elongated similar to being hit with a baton. 23 And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that 24 it's very convenient that you can only recall one (1) 25 kick and that you would be very cautious here about
2811 implicating any of your fellow officers with regards to 2 the beating that Cecil Bernard George received that 3 evening. 4 A: With -- with all due respect, it has 5 nothing to do with convenience. What I can describe to 6 you is a manner, or what I saw when I approached, that I 7 had -- I physically removed two (2) officers when I went 8 in. My focus at that point was to secure that man and to 9 get him out of the area. That was my focus. 10 What I saw going in, I saw the one (1) 11 kick. I did not see other blows and while I was in the 12 process of trying to handcuff him, I'm directly over his 13 body. 14 I don't know what happened and I mean I 15 didn't -- I don't recall seeing anyone beside me striking 16 him. I don't recall seeing anyone in front of me, 17 striking him. I was right there, right with him then. I 18 saw none of that. 19 Q: But prior to your arriving to him, 20 you were focussed on him because you needed to get to 21 him. 22 A: Absolutely. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2821 Q: At some point that evening, he 2 received numerous blows and yet there seemed to be no 3 officers who witnessed that. You had a good vision of 4 that man. 5 A: Yes, I had a -- I certainly had a 6 vision and I've communicated what I'd seen when I 7 approached. 8 Q: And at no point did you see anybody 9 other than the one (1) kick? 10 A: No, I did not. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 12 third time. That's the third time you asked the same 13 question, yes. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Mr. Commissioner, 18 that concludes my questions. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 20 Ms. Johnson. 21 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Mathai, 23 do you still have some questions or have they all been 24 covered? 25 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Very little.
2831 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 4 estimated fifteen (15) minutes to half hour; is that 5 still reasonable? 6 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: I think it's still 7 reasonable, yeah. Maybe a little bit shorter, but I 8 think it's -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- still reasonable. 11 Thank you. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 14 Q: Good afternoon, Detective Constable 15 Poole. My name's Sunil Mathai. I'm one of the lawyers 16 for Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto. 17 I just have a few questions with you and I 18 hope not to take my full thirty (30) minutes, but we'll 19 see how that goes. 20 Now, I understand that you interviewed 21 Gerald George at around 8:00 p.m.? 22 A: I believe that's -- I believe that's 23 correct. 24 Q: And at that time is when he described 25 to you the AK-47s, the Molotov cocktails and the mini-
2841 Rugers? 2 A: There was no mention of Molotov 3 cocktails. 4 Q: Oh, sorry. The mini-Rugers and the 5 AK-47s? 6 A: And rifles. 7 Q: And the rifles. And so that's when 8 he discussed that with you? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you thought this was fairly 11 significant information? 12 A: I did think it was significant, yes. 13 Q: And that's why you then went to 14 Constable Dew or -- I think it's Constable Dew or -- 15 A: He's a Detective as well. 16 Q: Detective, sorry, Detective Dew. And 17 you went to Cons -- Detective Dew and explained to him 18 what -- what was told to you by Gerald George, correct? 19 A: I did. 20 Q: And you said, and you've testified 21 many times to numerous questions, that you left it up to 22 him to ensure that it went up the food chain, as you 23 said? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And again, you assumed that it would
2851 go over the food -- up the food chain, because it was 2 important information, correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And it would be important information 5 especially with respect to OPP's interaction with anybody 6 -- any of the occupiers in the Park, correct? 7 A: Yes, it would have been. 8 Q: Okay. Now, after Checkpoint Charlie 9 was closed down, you were told to go to the TOC site for 10 a briefing? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I understand that Lacroix was 13 doing the briefing? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And now we've heard what he 16 didn't say, which was information about why you were 17 going down to the parking lot, but did he -- sorry, as 18 the reasons for formulating the CM -- CMU or -- or 19 comprising the CMU, but what did he say in the briefing? 20 A: I don't have a distinct recollection 21 other than we were not going to go into the Park. We 22 were going to push them out of the sandy parking lot 23 area. 24 That is the extent of what I understood. 25 Under no circumstances were we to go beyond that fence
2861 line. 2 Q: Okay. Did he mention anything about 3 AK-47s or the poss -- or -- or mini-Rugers and the 4 possibility that occupiers would have that information? 5 A: There was no mention of firearms. 6 Q: No. Now, we've heard from Mr. 7 Lacroix that the CMU is inappropriate for dealing with 8 situations involving, credible sources of information 9 that people have guns. And the reason being is because 10 the CMU is not equipped to deal with those types of 11 violent gunfire and violent exchanges. 12 Is that your understanding? 13 A: I -- I think that's a -- a fair 14 statement to say that it's a Public Order Unit, it's not 15 -- it's not designed to respond to weapons being fired. 16 Yes, it can respond. We're all still trained police 17 officers. Is that what its purpose is? No. 18 Q: Okay. And -- and just to be clear 19 the armour that is worn during hard -- when you hard toc 20 -- hard TAC, sorry, that armour, it's not bullet 21 resistant? 22 A: It is bullet resistant. 23 Q: In the same way that -- 24 A: Oh, sorry, the armour underneath is 25 bullet resistant.
2871 Q: Okay. In the same way that TRU has 2 bullet resistant? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. The -- the only reason I ask 5 that is because when Mr. Lacroix was asked the same 6 question his response was that you're issued regular soft 7 body armour, that they do not have ballistic armour like 8 TRU team was -- has. Only TRU team has the armour that 9 can stop an AK-47 round. Does that refresh your memory? 10 A: No, that is accurate, yes. 11 Q: Okay. So that -- you don't -- so 12 that soft body armour would not stop an AK-47 round? 13 A: No, it would not. 14 Q: And that's what members of the ERT 15 team, member of the CMU was wearing that night? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. So again it wouldn't be 18 appropriate for AK-47's if -- if they were in fact with 19 the occupiers? 20 A: No, it wouldn't -- it wouldn't stop 21 that round. 22 Q: Okay. Did that concern you that this 23 wasn't mentioned during the briefing? 24 A: No, I -- I think there was a general 25 assumption, rightly or wrongly, amongst police officers
2881 and myself. I had that information. There is a report 2 about gunfire, it was automatic gunfire, from Larry 3 Parks. There was certainly an awareness of the 4 possibility of weapons being inside. I -- I think that 5 there was also -- and myself, I didn't feel that those 6 firearms were going to be directed at us. 7 Q: Okay. Now, you were also involved in 8 the picnic table incident I understand? 9 A: I was. 10 Q: And you were used to provide support 11 or cover for the members of the ERT who were removing the 12 picnic tables? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Okay. How many ERT members were 15 involved in that incident? 16 A: I don't know that, sir. There was 17 certainly enough -- it took a little while to load up all 18 the picnic tables. 19 Q: More or less than the formation of 20 the CMU on the night of the 6th? 21 A: I -- I don't know how many there 22 were, sir. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: There was -- there was certainly more 25 than four (4) people there to load up all these picnic
2891 tables. I -- I can't guess as to how many exactly were 2 there. 3 Q: Rough estimate? 4 A: No. You know what? That wouldn't -- 5 I don't think that would be proper for me to guess how 6 many officers were there at the picnic tables. 7 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. 8 And you -- did these ERT officers who were removing the 9 picnic tables, did they have shields? 10 A: No. No, the officers were -- did not 11 have any shields. 12 Q: They didn't have ASP batons because 13 those were only given out later in the night? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: The last thing I want to touch on 16 briefly is with respect to what happened the night of -- 17 of September 6th. 18 Now, I -- I've read -- I've read through 19 the Commission Counsel documents and I've heard your 20 testimony today and nowhere was there a mention of 21 observing or seeing Dudley George get shot; is that 22 correct? 23 A: No, I did not see him. 24 Q: Okay. Because we've heard from other 25 officers including most recently Hebblethwaite, that he
2901 did in fact see Dudley George get shot. 2 A: No, I did not see that. 3 Q: Okay. Do you recall when you first 4 found out that Dudley George was shot? 5 A: I -- I don't remember that, sir. 6 Q: Well, maybe we can ballpark it. Was 7 it, do you think before -- sorry, do you think it was 8 maybe a week after? 9 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm sorry to rise, 10 Commissioner. And I'm not -- I really do hesitate to -- 11 to get up but I think asking this Witness to speculate on 12 that is really not helpful. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 14 how it's helpful at this point, Mr. Mathai. He can't say 15 when he learned. Is it really important to know when he 16 learned? 17 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Well, you know, if -- 18 if we can say that he learned for instance in the year 19 1995 -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 21 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- then, you know, I 22 think that might be helpful to me but -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Helpful? 24 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- it's not absolutely 25 necessary.
2911 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If it's not 2 important then move on. 3 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Okay. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 6 Q: Do you recall when you found out that 7 it was Ken Deane who was the shooter of Dudley George? 8 A: Again, I -- I don't recall that, sir. 9 Q: Okay. Now, you testified earlier 10 today in your examination of chief when Mr. Worme was 11 questioning you about the firing of guns, you testified 12 that you were able to observe Wade Lacroix firing his gun 13 and you said that you knew it was him because of his 14 physical size and his physical stature, correct? 15 A: I put two (2) and two (2) together. 16 I mean, his stature, it was consistent with him, and then 17 the fact I -- I learned later that he actually had a 18 revolver and he was the only guy in the whole CMU that 19 had a revolver. It made sense after the fact. 20 Q: So the night of the -- of September 21 6th you knew though based on his physical size that it 22 could have been Wade Lacroix who shot that -- shot? 23 A: You say I knew it could have been? 24 It -- it was possible. I didn't have a positive ID at 25 that time as to who -- who was there. I didn't quite
2921 believe what I was seeing that I saw a revolver because 2 we all had pistols and I thought I must have been -- I 3 must have been misinformed or I -- I didn't see it 4 properly to see a revolver. 5 Q: The revolver would have been the 6 distinguishing characteristic for you then? 7 A: Yes. The rest -- I say the rest of 8 his body, his -- his size was consistent, but the fact 9 that really tied it in was that revolver. 10 Q: Now, Mr. Lacroix, he was stationed in 11 Petrolia? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: He was the Detachment Commander I 14 believe; is that correct? 15 A: Yes, he was. 16 Q: And after September '95 you were 17 returned to Petrolia Detachment? 18 A: yes, that was -- that was my home 19 detachment after the Grand Bend summer detachment was -- 20 was finished. 21 Q: So you would have returned shortly 22 after the incidents of September 6th '95? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And it was during you return when you 25 were at the Petrolia Detachment that you testified that
2931 you -- you discovered that Mr. Lacroix had a revolver? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that would have been at what 4 time, maybe? That would have been late September? 5 A: I -- I really don't remember the 6 exact time, sir. 7 Q: Okay. And -- but it -- it was 8 clearly it wasn't before September -- September 7th 9 because you gave a statement to the SIU saying -- and -- 10 and you didn't mention that Wade Lacroix had fired a gun, 11 correct? 12 A: No, I did not. I didn't -- 13 Q: So you wouldn't have known at that 14 time that he was using a revolver? 15 A: No, I wouldn't have. 16 Q: Okay. So if we turn to Tab 32 which 17 is Exhibit P-1511; if you turn to page 12 of that 18 document and we're about -- I'm going to start off at 19 about a third from the bottom beginning at: 20 "POOLE: No, I didn't." 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: Are you there? Do you see that? 23 A: Yes, I'm there, yes. 24 Q: Do you want to take some time just to 25 read the page to familiarize yourself?
2941 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I basically say that I couldn't tell 4 who it was that was -- that was firing. 5 Q: Okay. So Wilson asks you straight 6 out: 7 "Did you at any time see any of your 8 fellow officers discharging firearms?" 9 And Poole's -- your response was: 10 "I could see some flashes, but I -- I 11 couldn't see, no, which -- who it was. 12 WILSON: Who it was though?" 13 Poole responds: 14 "No." 15 A: I couldn't see who it was I think is 16 -- is the response. I'm not sure. It looks like the 17 same question was -- was repeated here. But no, I -- I 18 couldn't see -- I couldn't see who it was at the time. 19 Q: Okay. And your testimony today as it 20 was in the Affidavit at Tab 35 which is Exhibit P-1508, 21 is that it was Ken Deane whose muzzle flash you saw? 22 Sorry, sorry, sorry. I apologize, not Ken 23 Deane, it was -- it was Wade Lacroix's muzzle flash that 24 you saw? 25 A: Yes.
2951 Q: Yes. And again this is because of 2 the revelation of the revolver, correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And again because the revolver was a 5 distinguishing characteristic, correct? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And when you were giving the 8 statement in December, December 19th, again referring 9 back to P-1511, you knew that there was this 10 distinguishing feature, a revolver, correct? 11 A: Sorry, what statement are you talking 12 about? 13 Q: Sir, I -- just to be clear we're -- 14 Tab 32 which is the statement you gave -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- to the SIU on -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- December 19th -- 19 A: Yeah, I'm on that one, okay, sorry. 20 Q: Now at that time, you knew that a 21 revolver had been fired and that was the muzzle. You 22 just didn't know the identity of the individual, correct? 23 A: I don't know if I believed my own 24 eyes that I'd seen a revolver. 25 Q: Okay.
2961 A: That was -- that was my concern that 2 it was this -- this type of gun that none of us had 3 anymore so I thought I must have been mistaken. 4 Q: But you would agree that the 5 revolver, as you said before, was a distinguishing 6 feature as compared to any of the other officers that 7 were there who'd had a semi-automatic weapon? 8 A: Yes, it was distinctive. 9 Q: And you didn't think to volunteer 10 this information that would help possibly identify one of 11 the shooters? 12 A: I didn't think it was accurate. 13 Q: Okay. But you didn't think to 14 provide that information to the officers that may help 15 distinguish who these -- who one of the individuals who 16 shot, was? 17 A: No, because I didn't believe any of 18 our officers there had revolvers any more. 19 Q: Okay. Those are my questions. Thank 20 you very much -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 22 Mr. Mathai. 23 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- Constable Poole. 24 Thank you, Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms.
2971 Jones...? Can you give me some reasonable estimate of 2 how long you might be? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 4 think I would be about twenty (20) minutes. In the event 5 I need to get an excerpt from one of the tapes played, 6 I'll be a little bit more time. 7 But I hope I can be able to do this in 8 about twenty (20) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Take twenty 10 (20) minutes? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 16 Commissioner. I'm sorry. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 19 Q: Officer Poole, I wanted to hopefully 20 move through this in -- in a little bit of chronic -- 21 chronological order and I wanted to follow up on some of 22 the questions that you've been asked already. 23 You had talked about on September the 4th, 24 when you get called out in the ERT call to go to the Park 25 at the Park takeover, you had indicated that so far as
2981 you were aware of, there weren't safety concerns for 2 people who were in the Park at that time. 3 Do you recall that evidence from this 4 morning? 5 A: I do recall that. 6 Q: Okay. Can you turn to Tab 2 of your 7 book of documents, and these are your notes and it's 8 Exhibit 1505. 9 And I wonder if you could turn to your 10 notes for September the 4th and I can tell you that they 11 are, in my book in any event, they are four (4) pages 12 from the back and the number is number 1, it looks like. 13 You may well want to look at your book as 14 opposed to these notes. 15 A: I think that might be page 61 16 actually. 17 Q: It might well be 61. It's a little 18 bit hard to see. In any event, I'm looking at your notes 19 of September the 4th, 1995. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Yes, I'm there now. 24 Q: Okay. And I just wanted to confirm 25 with you, Officer, that your page to be called out to the
2991 Park was at 20:00 or eight o'clock that evening? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Fair to say that you're not familiar 4 with what was happening in the Park or what was -- what 5 the concerns were before you arrived at the Park? 6 A: That would be accurate. 7 Q: Okay. You also spoke a little bit 8 about on the evening of September the 4th, when you and 9 other officers were in the Park and the situation 10 occurred where you talked about an escalation; people 11 yelling, someone coming and brushing against you and 12 flares being thrown; all of this occurring prior to the 13 windshield of the cruiser being smashed by one of the 14 occupiers. 15 I wanted to ask you a couple of questions 16 about the flares being thrown. Can you help us out a 17 little bit with what you saw, how many flares there were, 18 where they were, how they came in, where they landed? 19 A: What I recall is that they -- there 20 was a gentle -- a gentle -- there was -- there was an arc 21 to it. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: There was enough time to get out of 24 the way. 25 Q: Okay.
3001 A: I think most police officer -- 2 officers have had parts of their uniform badly burned by 3 flares, just by accident. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: You know, at traffic scenes and 6 certainly I don't mean to say that these flares aren't 7 dangerous, because they are. They will burn. You stick 8 them under water, they still burn. It would cause 9 tremendous damage certainly. 10 But we didn't have any difficulty, or know 11 one that I saw any difficulty getting out of the way of 12 the flares. 13 Q: Okay. Was there more than one (1) 14 flare that you saw being lobbed into the group? 15 A: I believe there was one (1) more -- 16 more than one (1) flare, yes. 17 Q: Okay. I then wanted to move on just 18 very briefly to the incident involving Gerald George. 19 And you were asked some questions about information that 20 you gave to Mark Wright about Gerald George. 21 And I wasn't completely clear about what 22 you were referring to or really what all you were being 23 asked. So I wanted to take you to some information. 24 We have some transcripts in your books 25 from some of the logger communications. And I wanted to
3011 take them -- take you through them just briefly, see if I 2 can get you to identify whether or not you heard these 3 communications and for one, whether or not you were a 4 person who was on the radio at that time. 5 And I wonder if you can start at Tab 17. 6 A: Okay I'm here. 7 Q: Okay. I'm sorry, it's P-1117. And 8 it looks like that is a communication between Lima 1, 9 Checkpoint Charlie and Mark Wright, is the way its 10 identified in our transcript. 11 Do you have a recollection of a radio 12 transmission where Mark Wright tells you: 13 "Sammy, it's Mark. All I need to know, 14 your victim identify -- ah, that stuff 15 coming from those guys at the curve 16 there." 17 And then: 18 "Sammy if you can hear me, finish your 19 statement and then respond from a car - 20 - car radio. Your portable's not 21 coming through." 22 Did you hear that or was that information 23 relayed to you? 24 A: I -- I did hear that. When I -- I 25 tried to --
3021 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- when I tried to transmit back -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- and my portable radio was not 5 working properly I guess -- 6 Q: Okay. Now if you turn over to the 7 next tab which is Tab 18 and this is P-1118. And it's a 8 radio transmission and it looks from the transcript as 9 though it is between Checkpoint Charlie and Lima 1. 10 And you'll see that the conversation there 11 is attributed to Lima 1 and you at Checkpoint Charlie. 12 Can you tell us today whether or not you recall 13 communicating directly on the radio to Lima 1, confirming 14 that Gerald George or the person, the victim, could 15 identify the party? 16 A: There's a little notation and the 17 conversation involves -- and it's got Zacher written down 18 and that would be my partner Mark Zacher at the time. 19 And that's consistent -- 20 Q: Sorry. I -- I don't mean to 21 interrupt you but one (1) little -- little notation that 22 I'm looking at. 23 A: There's a -- it's written in my book 24 here "Zacher" is written down beside Lima 1. 25 Q: Okay. Okay.
3031 A: Now that's -- that is consistent with 2 my recollection is that Mark Zacher approached me -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- and asked me what was going on 5 with the statement? 6 Q: To get that information? 7 A: Yes. And that was -- 8 Q: So that he could relay that. 9 A: And that was relayed back. 10 Q: Okay. Now do you have any 11 recollection of speaking on the radio directly to Mark 12 Wright about this matter? 13 A: I don't recall that right now. 14 Q: Let me put it this way. So far as 15 you are aware, was all of the information that you 16 obtained from Gerald George passed on either through the 17 radio transmission of other people, in this case Mark 18 Zacher, or through the interview statement that you took 19 from Gerald George, or through from what you understood 20 Mark Dew would be passing on? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So you didn't directly pass that 23 information onto anyone about the details of what Gerald 24 George told you? 25 A: No. No, at this point in this
3041 transmission I don't believe I'd finished my conversation 2 yet. 3 Q: Right. 4 A: And I was probably a little annoyed 5 and it's like, let me finish the statement. 6 Q: Okay. And after your statement is 7 taken, you don't have any direct communication with Mark 8 Wright? 9 A: No. I don't recall that. My 10 conversation was with Mark Dew. 11 Q: Okay. Thank you. And in terms of 12 your discussion with Gerald George I wanted to see if I 13 could have put before you a document. It's Inquiry 14 Document 0120 and it is a excerpt from the London Free 15 Press dated August the 3rd, 1995. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Sorry, I've just been corrected, it's 20 Exhibit 120. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 22 a copy of that? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
3051 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: And you'll see in this document, 3 Officer, and I'm looking at the left-hand column, halfway 4 down the first column it says: 5 "But a Kettle and Stony Point Band 6 Councillor who was among Natives who 7 moved onto the land in May 1993, but 8 left four (4) months later when the 9 repossession started taking a bad turn 10 said Natives at the Army Camp do have 11 weapons. There are weapons down there. 12 I'm not fooled by them, said Gerald 13 George, my concern is for our band 14 members' safety." 15 Are the sentiments expressed in that 16 newspaper article similar to the sentiments that Mr. 17 George expressed to you on the evening of September the 18 6th, 1995? 19 A: How it was expressed to me was that 20 to be careful because this is -- this is what is in 21 there. So I guess that would be -- that would be 22 consistent. 23 Q: Okay. You were asked a question 24 about shield chatter and whether on the evening of 25 September the 6th when the CMU was going down the road,
3061 whether there was shield chatter and you said that you 2 didn't recall that. 3 Do you recall at any point in time during 4 the confrontation on September the 6th there being shield 5 chatter? 6 A: No, I do not. 7 Q: Okay. You spoke a little bit about 8 the observations you made when you were in the sandy 9 parking lot on the night of September the 6th and you 10 someone down on the ground on his side kicking and 11 flailing. 12 And you talked about seeing an officer 13 kick that person, I think you said you thought it was in 14 the mid-section? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, can you tell us first of all at 17 the -- at that point in time was the Arrest Team moving 18 towards the person on the ground or were you already at 19 that point? 20 A: I was very close at that point. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: That's why I could see that -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- kick. 25 Q: Were there other members of the
3071 Arrest Team so far as you knew already at that person on 2 the ground or not? 3 A: I don't know that. 4 Q: Okay. Was the person that you saw 5 who delivered the kick to the person on the ground, did 6 he have a shield or not have a shield? 7 A: I believe all the members, the 8 members that were standing there, that I know of, that I 9 had to physically remove out of the way, yes, they had 10 shields. 11 Q: They had shields. Okay. And you 12 made mention in the course of your evidence this morning 13 about the purpose of a kick to the mid-section being 14 something that would take the wind out of someone and 15 would -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- sort of reduce their desire to 18 fight? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Is that -- is that something that you 21 were taught as a police officer? 22 A: Yes, it is, it's -- it's a very basic 23 technique. 24 Q: Okay. When you saw that did you see 25 anything odd or unusual, or did you see anything that
3081 gave you concern when you saw that officer kick the 2 person on the ground? 3 A: No, when I look at the totality of 4 the situation I -- I don't think that was excessive in 5 that situation with all that was going on. 6 Q: Okay. And in fact I think you gave 7 evidence a little bit earlier that you had reviewed the 8 SIU report? 9 A: I had read through it, yes. 10 Q: And I take it you understood that the 11 SIU had conducted an independent investigation into a 12 claim that excessive force had been used? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you understood that the SIU had 15 come to the conclusion that no excessive force was used? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Okay. You were also asked some 18 questions about whether or not you arrested or formally 19 arrested the person who was on the ground. 20 And you told us, I think, you can't -- you 21 didn't know of someone prior to you getting there had 22 done that. I take it, given all the circumstances it 23 would seem to you a little bit unlikely? 24 A: I would think so. I mean, it was -- 25 he was very closely connected with the -- the punchout
3091 from the whole CMU moving forward. 2 There's a -- there's a confrontation and 3 seconds later a man is spotted on the ground, struggling. 4 I think there's a very clear connection from one to the 5 next. 6 Q: From your perspective, when you got 7 to the person on the ground, did you believe that given 8 all of the circumstances, it would be safe and prudent to 9 formally arrest that person at that immediate time? 10 A: No. I -- I didn't think that would 11 be an appropriate spot at that time at all, actually. 12 Q: And why is that? 13 A: I think I would have -- someone would 14 have been laughed at if they tried to pull out their 15 charter of rights and formally read them to him at that 16 point. 17 Q: Do you think it would have been a 18 safe thing to do for you or -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- the person on the ground? 21 A: Not at all. I mean, it's -- the 22 projectiles were raining down. They -- in fact, they 23 increased in intensely as soon as -- as soon as I -- I 24 was in there, they intensified significantly. 25 And it wasn't safe for anyone to be
3101 standing there. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And that's probably why one (1) of 4 the guys yelled at us to get out of there. 5 Q: Okay. And you were asked some 6 questions about whether or not you recall being hit by a 7 projectile or whether or not you had injuries afterwards 8 and I take it that you had protective gear on that night? 9 A: I did. 10 Q: You had a helmet on to protect your 11 head? 12 A: I did. 13 Q: You had a protective vest on to 14 protect your torso? 15 A: Yes -- 16 Q: You had on protective gear to protect 17 your legs and your arms? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Would you be in a better position 20 than an unprotected person in terms of rocks and a bunch 21 of projectiles hailing down on you? 22 A: Absolutely. 23 Q: You were asked some questions about 24 formations on the road after the bus went through, and I 25 wasn't quite clear on your evidence about that, and I
3111 just wanted to go back to that briefly, Officer. 2 You had talked about when the bus first 3 drove through and -- at the officers, officers scattered 4 to the left and the right or -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- east and west, if I have that 7 right, in your terminology? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And at some point in time I 10 take it, some or all of the officers would have come back 11 on to the road? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And do you agree that, at that point 14 in time, there wasn't a formal formation or the officers 15 didn't go back into a formal formation? They were on the 16 road -- 17 A: I would agree with that. 18 Q: -- awaiting to see what happened 19 next? Fair to say in those circumstances that you 20 wouldn't know where each individual officer was because 21 they're not in formation? 22 A: Absolutely. 23 Q: So you couldn't, for example, say 24 where George Hebblethwaite was? 25 A: No. No, there would be a certain
3121 amount of chaos trying to get reorientated and back where 2 you're supposed to be. 3 Q: Right. You talked a little bit -- 4 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I just want to be 5 clear on this, with respect to the record. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I can't hear 7 you. I'm sorry, Mr. -- you -- perhaps you'd better speak 8 in the other mic, yes. 9 You want to be clear. I heard you -- 10 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I just want to be 11 clear on this in terms of the record, in terms of where 12 he said he saw Hebblethwaite. He said he was at the back 13 of -- or he said he was at the back of the -- during my 14 cross-examination we made it clear on the record that he 15 was at the back of the CMU and the rest of the CMU was in 16 front of him, so I want to be clear on that, in terms of 17 the record. 18 So he was at the very, very back, behind 19 the prisoner van was his evidence? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's where 21 this Witness was? 22 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: So -- 25 MS. KAREN JONES: And Mr. Commissioner, I
3131 actually didn't hear him say anything inconsistent with 2 that. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I -- 4 MS. KAREN JONES: What he was saying is 5 he couldn't tell you where individual people -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes -- 7 MS. KAREN JONES: -- were. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I got 9 that. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah, okay. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 13 Q: You were asked some questions about 14 when you saw the car and I think your evidence was it 15 slid into the officers; is that right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. Did you see it hit officers? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. You were, at that point in 20 time, I take it you were some distance away from the car? 21 A: I was. 22 Q: And you've said that there were a 23 variety, or a number of officers between you and the car? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And can you give us some indication
3141 about how long you had in all the circumstances, to look 2 at the car? 3 Was it a flashing -- 4 A: It was -- 5 Q: -- look, were you looking at it for a 6 long time? 7 A: No. It was more than a flash. I -- 8 I'd give it -- I'd give it two (2) seconds, maybe. I had 9 enough to actually see it when it came to a -- came to a 10 halt. 11 Q: When it hit the officers? 12 A: Yeah, that's when I had a good look 13 at the car. 14 Q: And then did your attention turn away 15 or what happened after that? 16 A: Yeah, my attention did turn away. 17 Q: Okay. You were asked about meeting 18 with Ron Pier and I think your evidence was that you met 19 at Norm Peels home? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: We've heard from other officers that 22 Mr. Peel's office was in his home, is that consistent 23 with what you recall? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: So did you meet with him at his
3151 office? 2 A: Yes, there was an office there. 3 Q: Okay. You were asked a question 4 about a suspect versus suspects, fairly recently and you 5 were asked a question and you gave an answer, Anything is 6 possible. Do you -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- recall that? 9 A: I do recall that. 10 Q: Do I take from your answer that you 11 have no idea -- 12 A: I don't. 13 Q: -- the circumstances about that, at 14 all? 15 A: I really don't have any idea what 16 someone else took from it. 17 Q: Sure, so asking you to speculate 18 isn't going to be of much assistance? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. Finally, you were asked some 21 questions early on by Mr. Worme when you started giving 22 your evidence this morning about the time that you spent 23 at Sombra and the amount of time you spent on Walpole 24 Island. 25 And I think you confirmed for him that you
3161 were familiar with a number of people on Walpole Island 2 and had worked with the officers there? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: We've heard some evidence at this 5 Inquiry about people from Walpole Island being at 6 Ipperwash and in particular the Isaacs, in a person 7 called, Ed Isaac. Were you familiar with Mr. Ed Isaac? 8 A: I am. I was familiar with Ed Isaac, 9 yes. 10 Q: If -- did you have any concerns about 11 your safety in relation to Mr. Isaac? 12 A: I would say, yes. There was -- you 13 would not roll up with just one (1) officer. You would 14 take a minimum of two (2) officers, if you were going to 15 respond to a call with Mr. Isaac. 16 Q: Is that related to concerns of 17 violence? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Is that concerns -- related to 20 concerns of violence against officers? 21 A: I don't have a -- I didn't perform a 22 check into his background to say exactly what dates he's 23 -- you know -- there's been interactions with us. I 24 think it's pretty well known for anyone that works around 25 Walpole that Ed Isaac is not someone you take lightly,
3171 that you would have a minimum of two (2) officers to deal 2 with this individual, whatever the call is. 3 Q: Fair enough. And had you known he 4 was at Ipperwash on -- in or around September the 6th of 5 1995, would that have given you some concern? 6 A: I think there would be -- I think 7 there would be some concern with his presence. 8 Q: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Commissioner, 9 those are my questions. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, just by 13 way of re-examination, I just want simply want to inquire 14 of this witness -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 16 Worme? 17 18 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: Whether in fact, you knew the person 20 Ed Isaac that Ms. Jones just asked you about, was in fact 21 present in the park on the night of the 6th when you 22 together with the rest of the CMU Team marched down 23 towards the Park? 24 A: No, I'm not aware if he was there at 25 all.
3181 Q: And just further to that, were you 2 aware that he was in the Army Camp in the days previous 3 to that? 4 A: I'd heard mention, but can I say that 5 I knew for certain that he was in there, no. 6 Q: All right. Thank you for that sir. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: That's all I have by 8 way of re-examination Commissioner. I do want to extend 9 our thanks on behalf of the Commission to Officer Poole 10 for his attendance here. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, thank 12 you very much Officer Poole for coming and giving us your 13 evidence. 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 15 16 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 17 18 MR. DONALD WORME: I believe Mr. Millar 19 is prepared to go with the next witness. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but I 21 need a short break. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: I was going to suggest 23 that we -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we will 25 take a very short break, five (5) or ten (10) minutes and
3191 then we'll start with the next witness. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you again 3 Commissioner. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 4:25 p.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 4:32 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed, please be seated. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, Commissioner, the 12 next witness is Constable James Root. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 14 we'll go approximately an hour. Is that all right, Mr. 15 Millar? We'll adjourn at 5:30? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's fine. 17 18 JAMES LEONARD ROOT, Sworn 19 20 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Mr. Root, I understand that you 22 became a member of the Ontario Provincial Police in 1991? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And could you please turn to Tab 1 of 25 the black book in front of you?
3201 And is that a copy of your curriculum 2 vitae? 3 A: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. 4 Q: I would ask that that be marked the 5 next exhibit. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1512, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1512: Document Number 2005541. 9 Resume of James Leonard Root. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And prior to becoming a member of the 13 Ontario Provincial Police you took a two (2) year course 14 at St. Clair College with respect to Law and Security 15 Administration, is that correct? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And after you joined the Provincial 18 Police you were a constable at Petrolia Detachment? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And that lasted until 1993 when you 21 were transferred to the Essex Detachment? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And you performed general law 24 enforcement duties at both Petrolia and Essex? 25 A: Yes.
3211 Q: And then in 1994 you were transferred 2 to Tecumseh Detachment? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And again performed general law 5 enforcement duties? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And as I understand it you remained 8 at Tecumseh Detachment until 1999? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And in 1994 you became a member of 11 the Number 1 District Emergency Response Team, is that 12 correct? 13 A: That is correct. 14 Q: And you attended the training for the 15 Emergency Response Team in November 1994? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And that was a six (6) week course? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And prior to September 6, 1995, did 20 you have any involvement with the First Nations policing? 21 A: No, I did not. 22 Q: And had you received any training 23 with respect to First Nations issues? 24 A: No, I had not. 25 Q: And after September 6th, 1995, did
3221 you receive any training with respect to First Nations 2 issues? 3 A: No, I did not. 4 Q: And it's my understanding that in 5 1996 you attended a First Nations Native Awareness 6 Training Course. 7 Do you recall that? 8 A: Yeah, I -- I forgot that; that was a 9 two (2) day course -- 10 Q: It was a two (2) day course? 11 A: -- in Petrolia. 12 Q: In Petrolia? 13 A: Yes -- 14 Q: Do you want to just pull that 15 microphone a little bit closer to you? 16 A: Closer. 17 Q: The whole thing will move. Thank 18 you. That was a two (2) day course? That was in 1996 I 19 believe. 20 A: Yeah, that's correct. 21 Q: Now, it's my understanding you had no 22 involvement with Camp Ipperwash or the -- the Ipperwash 23 area in 1993, is that correct? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And -- nor 1994?
3231 A: That's right. 2 Q: And your first contact was in July of 3 1995, is that correct? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And when you became involved in July 6 of 1990 -- let me just step back. 7 With respect to the -- the whole area, 8 it's my understanding that in February of 1995, you were 9 called out to a incident on Kettle and Stony Point First 10 Nation, is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And at page 2, Tab 2 of the book in 13 front of you there's a -- an extract from Inquiry 14 document 2005599 and are those your notes, Constable 15 Root? 16 A: Yes, they are. 17 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner 18 what your general note taking procedure was in 1995? 19 A: I would take my notes as -- as 20 immediately, as soon as practical after the incident I 21 attended. 22 Q: And what was the purpose of taking 23 notes? 24 A: Just to refresh my memory for court 25 proceedings, et cetera.
3241 Q: And these are your notes at Tab 2? 2 A: Yes, they are. 3 Q: And I would ask that the notes of -- 4 at Tab 2, Inquiry -- the - it's an extract, actually, 5 Commissioner. We've got these notes divided up into 6 convenient extracts. 7 The notes for February 1995, it's page 8 2900779 of Inquiry document 2005599 be the next exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1513, Your Honour. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's one(1) 12 -- it's one(1) page. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: One(1) page. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1513: Document Number 2005599. 17 Handwritten notes of James 18 Root, February 26, 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And as I understand it, you were 22 called out at 23:50. You were advised of a ERT 23 containment call to meet at Forest Detachment at 02:30 24 for a briefing; is that correct? 25 A: That's correct.
3251 Q: And as I understand it, on your way 2 to Forest, you were involved in a traffic accident? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And that you did not arrive at Forest 5 until 3:30? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: And that at that point you were put 8 on standby? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And ultimately assigned at 06:50 to a 11 checkpoint? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And you relieved, I believe, 14 Constables Parks and Whelan? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And you relieved -- remained on that 17 checkpoint until eight o'clock when you attended -- when 18 the matter came to an end? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And the -- there's a note in your 21 book at 08:00: 22 " Debrief [and then] 09:50, 10-8 to 23 Forest." 24 Was the debriefing at the Kettle and Stony 25 Point First Nation?
3261 A: I'm assuming it was. By my notes it 2 would have been at Forest Detachment. 3 Q: At Forest Detachment? 4 A: I would think so. 5 Q: And then your next involvement as I 6 understand, in this area, was in July of 1995, is that 7 correct? 8 A: Yes, that's correct. 9 Q: And before you were -- and that next 10 involvement, if you turn to Tab 3, there's a series of 11 notes at Tab 3. 12 Again, are these your notes, Constable? 13 A: They appear to be so, yes. 14 Q: And there are twelve (12) pages of 15 notes that -- here it's -- its' again an extract from 16 Inquiry document 2005598 and they cover the period July 17 29th, 1995 to the last note is August 23rd, 1995. 18 And I would ask that this group of notes 19 be marked the next exhibit. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1514, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1514: Document Number 2005598. 23 Handwritten notes of James 24 Root, July 29-August 23, 25 1995.
3271 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And prior to being called out on July 3 29th, 1995, what knowledge or information, if any, did 4 you have with respect to the issues surrounding Camp 5 Ipperwash? 6 A: I had very little knowledge at that - 7 - up to that point. I believe I did know that there was 8 some sort of land dispute. 9 Q: With respect to the Army Camp? 10 A: With the army camp. 11 Q: And -- but beyond that you had very 12 little knowledge? 13 A: Very little knowledge. 14 Q: And can you tell us, what -- what did 15 you -- you were called out, according to your notes, at 16 15:00 hours, is that correct? 17 A: Yes, that's correct. 18 Q: And you arrived at Forest Detachment 19 at approximately 17:30? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And your notes indicate, Exhibit P- 22 1514, that there was a briefing? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And can you recall what the briefing 25 consisted of, what you were told?
3281 A: Other than what I've written in my 2 notes, it just says: 3 "Briefing re: Natives on the Military 4 Base." 5 I don't have any independent recollection 6 as far as what exactly was contained in that briefing. 7 Q: And do you -- do you have any 8 recollection of who it was who briefed you? 9 A: Not without making an assumption, no, 10 I don't. 11 Q: So you would be guessing? 12 A: Yeah, I would be guessing. I would - 13 - I would assume it would be an ERT leader but I'm not -- 14 I'm not certain. 15 Q: You're not certain? And then -- and 16 the ERT leader for Number 1 District ERT was Stan 17 Korosec? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And his -- the second -- and the 20 second person was I think Sergeant Graham? 21 A: Rob Graham, yes. 22 Q: And what did you do after receiving 23 the briefing? 24 A: According to my notes at 19:00 hours 25 I -- I left the area and I've got noted that there was no
3291 further action to be taken at this time. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: No further details. 4 Q: And then you were -- again at page -- 5 the second page of Exhibit 1514 you returned to the 6 Ipperwash area on July 30th, 1995? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And I would ask that you turn to page 9 -- Tab 4 and this is an interview report, it's a copy of 10 Inquiry Document 2003845. 11 And that relates -- that was completed by 12 you, Constable Root? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And do you recall today why you 15 filled out this particular type of interview report? 16 A: I believe I was instructed by an ERT 17 sergeant, either Korosec or Graham to -- to make an 18 official notation to be handed in. I'm sure this was 19 submitted to them at some point. 20 Q: And the -- what was the purpose of -- 21 what were you -- what was the purpose of the report, to 22 record what happened? 23 A: Just to record my -- my attendance in 24 anything, particular details of anything I dealt with at 25 the time.
3301 Q: And I would ask that this two (2) 2 page document be the next exhibit? 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1515, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1515: Document Number 2003845. 6 Handwritten OPP Interview 7 Report by P/C J.L. Root, July 8 30, 1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And as I understand it from Exhibit 12 P-1515 you attended on July 30th, 1995, at the Ipperwash 13 -- in the Ipperwash area? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And you arrived at approximately 16 20:30 at the Pinery Provincial Park? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And remained on standby until eleven 19 o'clock? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And then on Monday, July 31st '95, 22 you are back at Pinery -- or you were at Pinery Park on 23 standby from 7:00 in the morning until 11:00 at night? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And then on the morning of Tuesday,
3311 August the 1st, 1995, you were called out from I take it 2 from Pinery Park. 3 Were you staying at Pinery Park? 4 A: Yes, I was. 5 Q: At -- at the bunkhouse there? 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: To assist with a motor vehicle 8 accident? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And that motor vehicle accident was 11 on Army Camp Road? 12 A: Yes, near Matheson Drive I believe. 13 Q: And you -- what -- do you recall 14 today what you did? 15 A: I think I just assisted with possibly 16 traffic control at the time. 17 Q: And then you were called out, you 18 went off duty at 23:00 on August the 1st, is that 19 correct? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And then on August the 1st after -- 22 during the day you were called out as well? Is that what 23 I take from the entry at the bottom of -- in the -- the 24 first page and the top of the second page? 25 A: That's correct.
3321 "Returned to Pinery Park. No incidents 2 to report 04:00 hours." 3 Q: And so on that day there was no 4 incidents that you reported? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Were you on general patrol duty? 7 A: General patrol, yes. 8 Q: Then at Tab 5, there's a copy of 9 Inquiry document 2834 and again is that a document you 10 completed? 11 A: Yes it is. 12 Q: And I would ask that that be the next 13 Exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-1516 Your 15 Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1516: Document Number 2000834. 18 Handwritten OPP Interview 19 Report by P/C J.L. Root, 20 August 09, 1995. 21 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And on this document, 23 Commissioner, we've -- the document in the database 24 needed to be redacted because there's some individuals 25 names and the names have been redacted from the copy that
3331 the Registrar has so the official copy is redacted. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And you were on duty in this period 5 of time, August the 7th, August the 8th of 1995, is that 6 correct? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And then as well, August 9th and 9 10th, for a four (4) day period according to this report? 10 A: Yes, that's correct. 11 Q: And on August the 7th there were no 12 incidents to report? 13 A: Yeah, that's correct. 14 Q: And then August the 8th, you were on 15 duty from 7:00 at night, 019:00 hours until 7:00 the next 16 morning, you were on the night shift? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And you had one (1) -- an incident 19 where you spoke to some young women who were on the Army 20 camp side of the beach, is that correct? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: And spoke to them about not being on 23 the Army camp side of the beach? 24 A: Yes that's right. 25 Q: And then as I understand it, you also
3341 spoke to some other individuals with respect to -- was 2 that at the Provincial Park, the other individuals you 3 spoke to? 4 A: The second group had crossed into the 5 CFB beach property. 6 Q: And had you spoke to them about 7 returning to the Provincial -- 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: -- leaving the Army Camp? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And then the page 3, August the 9th, 12 the-- you're again on general patrol, if you go to page - 13 - the third page of that document. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And as I understand it, there were no 16 particular incidents that -- that night? 17 A: No, that's correct. 18 Q: And August the 10th again, you were 19 on -- this time you were on the day shift and on general 20 patrol again? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And there were no incidents to 23 reports? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And then you returned to Ipperwash
3351 Provincial Park on -- excuse me -- the Ipperwash area on 2 August the 21st; is that correct? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And remained August the 21st and 5 August the 22nd, is that correct? 6 A: Yes, that's correct. 7 Q: And at Tab 6 is a copy of Exhibit 8 1389, which is Inquiry document 200828 and were you 9 partnered on August the 21st with Constable Wayde 10 Jacklin? 11 A: Yes, I was. 12 Q: And this is a form that was completed 13 by Constable Jacklin and he indicates that all was very 14 quiet? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And is that your recollection? 17 A: That's my recollection, yes. 18 Q: And if you could turn to Tab 8, it's 19 Exhibit P-1390, Inquiry Document 2000806 and that was the 20 report made by you and Constable Jacklin for your 21 attendance on August the 22nd, from 18:00 hours to -- is 22 it 18:00 hours or 13:00 hours? 23 A: I believe it's 13:00 hours to 03:00 24 hours. 25 Q: To 03:00 hours?
3361 A: I believe so, yes. 2 Q: And again you were on general patrol? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And there were no incidents to 5 report? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And then the next time you returned 8 to the Provincial -- Ipperwash area was on September the 9 4th, is that correct? 10 A: Yes, I believe so, yes. 11 Q: And I'd ask you to turn to Tab 9, 12 please. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And are those your notes, sir? 17 A: Yes, they are. 18 Q: And this is again an extract from 19 Inquiry document 200 -- this is actually 2005435 and 20 they're the notes for the period September 4th through to 21 the beginning of September 6th. 22 It's three (3) pages, Commissioner, and I 23 would ask that these three (3) pages plus the two (2) 24 the typescript which forms part of this Inquiry document 25 be the next exhibit.
3371 THE REGISTRAR: P-1517, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1517: Document Number 2005435. 4 Notebook entries of P/C J.L. 5 Root, August 30-September 06, 6 1995. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And the handwritten notes are your 10 notes and the last two (2) pages are a typescript that 11 appear to have been made at least there's a -- no, that's 12 a scanning, when it was scanned. 13 Do you recall when you made these notes, 14 the typescript of the notes? 15 A: Yeah, I reproduced these probably 16 only three (3) or four (4) months ago. 17 Q: Actually, it's probably earlier than 18 that because this was scanned some time ago but the -- 19 the typescript is your -- you created this typewritten 20 document from your notes? 21 A: The transcription, yes, I did. 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And what you've tried to do is put in 25 a type -- the typed version exactly what your notes say?
3381 A: That's right. 2 Q: And according to Exhibit P-1517, 3 actually before I -- do you have a recollection of being 4 called out to Ipperwash Provincial -- the Ipperwash area 5 on September the 4th, 1995? 6 A: Yes, I do. 7 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner 8 what happened, when you were called out? 9 A: Approximately 8:00 p.m. I was advised 10 by pager, as an ERT member, to attend Forest Detachment 11 regarding an incident at Ipperwash. 12 Q: And then what happened? 13 A: At 8:30 p.m. I attended Essex 14 Detachment and met with Constable John Mortimer. At 15 11:00 p.m. I arrived at Forest Detachment. 16 Q: And where is the Essex Detachment or 17 back in 1995, where was the Essex Detachment located? 18 A: It's right at the 401 Highway, just - 19 - just east of the City of Windsor. 20 Q: Just east of...? 21 A: Just outside of the City of Windsor? 22 Q: Windsor? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And then your notes indicate at 25 23:00:
3391 "Forest Detachment standby." 2 And I take it that you were then on 3 standby? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And then there's a note 01:40 hours, 6 briefing? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And do you recall what -- who briefed 9 you? 10 A: No, not -- no, I don't. 11 Q: And do you recall what were you -- 12 what -- what you were told at that briefing? 13 A: Probably just details. My only 14 recollection was it was in details as to certain 15 checkpoints that were being set up and where we were to 16 be assigned. 17 Q: Did you recall being told anything 18 about what had happened on -- during the evening of 19 September the 4th? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: No, I don't have a specific 24 recollection of what was said. 25 Q: And what was your role to be?
3401 A: I was assigned at Checkpoint A which 2 was at the -- near the intersection of East Parkway and 3 Army Camp Road, it's just -- 4 Q: And the -- and you're reading from 5 your notes? 6 A: I'm referring to my notes, yes. 7 Q: Okay. And do you have any 8 independent recollection? 9 A: No, I don't. Nothing other than 10 that. 11 Q: And then do you recall what was your 12 role, what -- what were you supposed to do at the 13 checkpoint? 14 A: My recollection was that it was a way 15 of gathering intelligence to see who -- who specifically 16 was in the area and checking motor -- motoring public to 17 see who was in the area coming to and from the area of 18 the Army Camp. 19 Q: And the -- your notes -- and then did 20 you complete a report or anything yourself personally 21 with respect to the vehicles that were stopped? 22 A: No, if I stopped a vehicle I would 23 have made a notation in my notebook. 24 Q: And your notebook has no notation 25 beyond:
3411 "Several vehicles stopped going to and 2 from area of Ipperwash Provincial 3 Park?" 4 A: Yeah, that's -- that's all I've got 5 in there. 6 Q: And then there's an entry: 7 "No incidents to report." 8 A: Right. 9 Q: So do I take it from that, from the 10 period of time you were on duty at 02:30, at 2:30 in the 11 morning, until you went off duty at -- or left the 12 checkpoint at 9:00 in the morning that there were no 13 particular incidents? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And the -- at nine o'clock you -- 16 "10-19 to Forest" means that you travel to Forest? 17 A: Returned to Forest, yes. 18 Q: And when you returned to the Forest - 19 - to Forest on the morning of September the 5th was the 20 Command Post, Mobile Command Post in Forest do you 21 recall? 22 A: I don't recall if it was there at 23 that time or not. 24 Q: In fact it was by that time but you 25 just don't recall it?
3421 A: That's right. 2 Q: And then it indicates that there was 3 a debriefing? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And do you recall anything about the 6 debriefing? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: And do you recall where the 9 debriefing took place, sir? 10 A: At Forest Detachment. 11 Q: And whereabouts in Forest Detachment? 12 A: That I don't recall. 13 Q: In the garage? 14 A: Possibly. 15 Q: Okay. And then you went off duty at 16 ten o'clock? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And when you were in Forest on 19 September 5th, 6th, and 7th, where did you stay? 20 A: I believe we were still at the Pinery 21 Park. 22 Q: The Pinery Park? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And then what happened? You came 25 back on duty on the afternoon of September 5th?
3431 A: Yes, I started at 18:00 hours, 6:00 2 p.m. and I was -- attended a briefing at -- again a 3 briefing at Forest Detachment. I don't recall the 4 specifics of that briefing and then at 7:00 p.m. I was 5 assigned another checkpoint, Checkpoint 'D'. 6 Q: And do you recall where Checkpoint 7 "D" was located? 8 A: Not specifically, no, I don't. 9 Q: And we understand that it was located 10 at the intersection or near the intersection of Army Camp 11 Road and Highway 21 outside the Army Camp. 12 Does that assist your recollection? 13 A: Yes, it does. 14 Q: And with that information do you 15 recall where in relation to the entrance to the Army Camp 16 your checkpoint was during the night of September the 17 5th? 18 A: Yeah. My recollection was we weren't 19 too far right from the main gates. 20 Q: And were you on the lake side of the 21 main gate or on the Highway side? 22 A: We'd be on the highway side. 23 Q: On the highway side? And then your 24 next note is at 08:00 -- no, 07:45: 25 "Relieved at 'D'.
3441 But you have a note: 2 "Several vehicle checks conducted." 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And do you have any independent 5 recollection of those vehicle checks? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: And then you were relieved at 7:45? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And then what happened? 10 A: At 08:00 hours I attended another 11 debriefing and I was advised myself and other members of 12 ERT were to enter the Park at the beach area to retrieve 13 picnic tables taken by Native occupiers. 14 Q: And, excuse me, Commissioner. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And the -- do you recall what -- do 19 you recall today were the picnic tables you were to 20 retrieve inside the Park or outside the Park? 21 A: My recollection was they were outside 22 of the Park. 23 Q: And do you recall today where they 24 were located outside the Park? 25 A: Not specifically, no.
3451 Q: And I'm going to put on the screen an 2 electronic copy of Exhibit P-438, Commissioner it is P- 3 438B. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And Constable Root, although this 8 photograph was taken after 1995 you'll note the 9 Provincial Park is on the right-hand side to the left of 10 the sign former Ipperwash -- former Ipperwash and then 11 there's a note Checkpoint 'A', Checkpoint 'A-1' and the 12 checkpoints are from September the 6th. 13 But, with respect to the picnic tables the 14 purple line is East Parkway Drive and then running down 15 from Checkpoint 'A' is Army Camp Road and can you -- does 16 this assist you in -- with respect to where the picnic 17 were located? 18 A: My understanding, my recollection was 19 they were somewhere in the vicinity of the intersection 20 of Army Camp Road and East Parkway, in the vicinity of 21 that sandy parking lot. 22 Q: And the sandy parking lot you're 23 referring to is the area that runs north from the 24 intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp Road, up to 25 the beach?
3461 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And so what do you recall doing with 3 respect to the picnic tables? 4 A: Our instructions were to go in and 5 remove the picnic tables and if there were any persons 6 that we came into contact, they were to be arrested for 7 mischief. Upon arriving there to remove the picnic 8 tables there were three (3) to four (4) persons there. 9 And they fled upon our arrival. And there 10 was no further action at that point. 11 Q: And so did you assist to physically 12 remove the picnic tables? 13 A: I don't specifically recall if I did, 14 or not. 15 Q: And then at 9:10 -- 10-8 that means 16 you went back to Forest? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And you were off duty at 10:00? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Then... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: At Tab 11 there's another set of 25 notes this is Inquiry document 100 -- I mean excuse me,
3471 1000859 and this set of notes is four (4) pages and are 2 these your notes Constable Root? 3 A: Yes they are. 4 Q: And I would ask that these four (4) 5 pages of Constable Root's notes be marked the next 6 exhibit please. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-1518, Your 8 Honour. 9 THE WITNESS: You've got five pages 10 actually. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1518: Document Number 1000859. 13 Handwritten notebook entries 14 of James Root, September 06, 15 1995. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: Is it five (5) pages, excuse me. Yes 19 it's five (5) pages. Thank you very much Constable. 20 21 Now, as I understand it on September the 22 6th, you came back on duty at approximately 18:00 hours 23 at the Forest Detachment? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And the note indicates, when you
3481 actually look at notes, it says: 2 "18:35 ERT patrol, IPP -- Provincial 3 Park areas." 4 Then the next note is 18:00; is that 5 correct? 6 A: The entry for 18:30, that was -- I 7 believe that was the time the shift was supposed to 8 start. 9 Q: Oh, I see. 10 A: And then there's no finishing time 11 next to it. And the assignment was ERT patrols, 12 Ipperwash Provincial Park areas. 13 Q: Oh, so you made those notes actually 14 in preparation for attending there? 15 A: I -- I would have made them at the 16 time, but it -- it turns out that I attended Forest at 17 18:00, or just prior to the 18:30 obviously. 18 Q: And then what were you assigned to do 19 on the evening of September the 6th? 20 A: At -- at 6:00 p.m. I was assigned to 21 another checkpoint, Checkpoint 'A' with three (3) other 22 constables, ERT members. 23 Q: And do you recall where Checkpoint 24 'A' was when you went on duty on the evening of September 25 the 6th, Constable?
3491 A: Not specifically, no. 2 Q: And was it in the vicinity still of 3 Army Camp Road and East Parkway, do you recall? 4 A: Yes, if -- if I recall correctly, it 5 might have been a little bit further west on -- 6 Q: East Parkway? 7 A: -- East Parkway. 8 Q: A little farther away from the 9 intersection? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And when you were on duty, do you 12 recall the checkpoint being moved back to the MNR parking 13 lot? 14 A: Yes, I do. 15 Q: And that was at some point during the 16 evening? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And you're aware -- where the -- 19 you're aware of what I'm speaking of when I say the MNR 20 parking lot? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that was west on Army Camp Drive 23 -- Army -- excuse me, on East Parkway? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And at the MNR parking lot contained
3501 the Tactical Operations Centre? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And as I understand it, the Tactical 4 Operations Centre was in a St. John's Ambulance trailer? 5 A: That's my recollection, yes. 6 Q: So that there was a TOC at the MNR 7 parking lot as well as the command post in Forest? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And then the -- can you tell us what 10 happened while you were at the checkpoint, at Checkpoint 11 'A'? 12 A: At 9:00 p.m. approximately 9:00 p.m. 13 I was advised to return the -- the vehicle I was driving. 14 It was an unmarked ERT van, panel van 15 I was advised to -- requested to return 16 that van to the TOC for equipment pick up or relay of 17 some type. 18 Q: And do you recall how far away from 19 the intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp Road the 20 checkpoint was, how far west, when you were sent down 21 there on the evening of September the 6th? 22 A: I'm sorry, I don't understand -- I 23 don't think I understand the question. 24 Q: How far away from the intersection 25 were you when you went down on the evening of September
3511 6th, to Checkpoint 'A'? 2 How far from the actual intersection? 3 A: How far from Checkpoint 'A' to the 4 actual intersection? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: I don't recall. 7 Q: Could you see the sandy parking lot 8 from Checkpoint 'A'? 9 A: Okay. If we're talking about from 10 Checkpoint 'A' where the TOC was to the intersection -- 11 Q: No, no. I've misunderstood you -- 12 I've confused you. 13 It was my understanding that when you went 14 on duty on the evening of September the 6th, the 15 Checkpoint 'A' from what you just told us, was located 16 somewhat west of the intersection of Army Camp Drive and 17 East Parkway? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And my question is, how far west was 20 it? 21 A: Okay, that was my misunderstanding. 22 Q: That's okay. 23 A: It'd be under a kilometre, 24 approximately 3/4's of a kilometre maybe. 25 Q: So that you were much closer to the
3521 MNR parking lot? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And so that it was -- how far away 4 from the MNR parking lot, do you recall? 5 A: Somewhere around that distance, half 6 a kilometre probably. 7 Q: Okay. And could you see the entrance 8 to the sandy parking lot at the intersection of East 9 Parkway and Army Camp Road from where Checkpoint 'A' was 10 located? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: And do you recall Staff Sergeant -- 13 Acting Staff Sergeant Wright going by your checkpoint on 14 the evening of September the 6th? 15 A: No, I don't. 16 Q: And do you recall a car driven by 17 Gerald George passing your checkpoint on the evening of 18 September the 6th? 19 A: No, I don't. 20 Q: Do you recall seeing a car or cars 21 stopped at approximately 7:30 to 7:40 or 19:30 to 19:45 22 at the intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway 23 Drive? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And...
3531 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: ...then one (1) of your notes is at 4 19:40: 5 "ATS [that means at the scene] 6 Checkpoint 'A'. Assist three (3) 7 vehicle checks?" 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And you were simply checking 10 vehicles? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And did you make a note of the 13 vehicles? 14 A: The specific vehicles? No. 15 Q: And do you recall who briefed you 16 that evening on the evening of September the 6th? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: And prior -- at any time on September 19 4th, 5th, or 6th were you shown a copy of Project Maple? 20 A: No, never. 21 Q: Were you ever shown a copy of Project 22 Maple? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Until you were -- started to prepare 25 for attending here?
3541 A: Yeah, that's correct. 2 Q: And the -- so your notes indicate 3 that at 21:00 hours you were advised to return ERT van to 4 TOC and then it says -- and it's: 5 "[illegible] equipment PV." 6 A: For equipment pickup. 7 Q: For equipment pickup? Do you recall 8 -- what were you supposed to do? 9 A: My recollection was the Crowd 10 Management equipment was at the TOC and I needed to 11 transport it somewhere else. 12 Q: Okay. And I'm just going to play -- 13 if you could turn to Tab 12 and this is a radio 14 transmission at 20:29 hours. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Excuse me, Commissioner, I'll start 19 it again. That was -- I forgot to plug it in. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 22 23 [Lima 1 = ERT Leader at CP] 24 [Lima 2 = ERT Supervisor at TOC] 25 [JR = Constable James Root]
3551 2 Lima 1: Lima 2, Lima 1. 3 Lima 2: Lima 1, Lima 2. Go ahead. 4 Lima 1: Lima 2, Lima 1. Have ERT 1 attend the 5 TOC. ERT 1, attend the TOC for extra 6 equipment. That'll be the blue van. The 7 blue van. 8 JR: Lima 1 from PC Root. That's 10-4. 9 Lima 1: PC Root, Lima 1. 10-4. 10 Lima 2: Lima 2, to all District 1 Units. Attend 11 the TOC. Attend the TOC for further issue 12 . for further equipment. 13 Lima 1: Lima 1, that's negative. Lima 1, that's 14 negative. Just PC Root with the blue van 15 to attend TOC. PC Root with the blue van 16 to attend TOC. Remainder of ERT 1 to stay 17 at their present location. 18 Lima 2: That's 10-4. ERT 1, remain at your 19 present location. Only Root is to attend 20 with the blue van. 21 Lima 1: That's 10-4. Lima 2 from Lima 1. 22 23 End of conversation 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED)
3561 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And do you recognize your voice on 4 that transmission? 5 A: Yes I do. 6 Q: And your identified as JR? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Do you recognize the voice of Lima 1? 9 A: No I don't. 10 Q: And Lima 2? 11 A: No. 12 Q: But you recognize your voice? 13 A: My own voice, yeah. 14 Q: And you recall hearing that 15 transmission? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I would ask that the transcript 18 be marked the next Exhibit. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-1519, Your 20 Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1519: Transcript of Region 01, 23 James Root - Lima 1 - Lima 2, 24 September 06, 1995, 20:29 25 hrs, Chatham Communications
3571 Centre, Logger Tape number 2 146, Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And the time recorded for this 6 transmission is 20:29 hours and in your notes you have 7 21:00 hours, how do you explain the difference? 8 A: I can't explain that. I don't know 9 why I've indicated 21:00 hours, when it's clearly -- when 10 it's clear from the audio that it occurred thirty-one 11 (31) minutes prior to. 12 Q: And the -- do you recall when you 13 made your notes for the evening of the events of 14 September 6th? Was it that night or later on the next 15 day? 16 A: I believe these notes, given the 17 circumstances of the evening were probably made, my best 18 recollection some time early afternoon on the 7th. 19 Q: And that would include the note at 20 21:00 hours? 21 A: Quite possibly, yes. 22 Q: And you don't -- you wouldn't -- you 23 don't disagree that you were -- the communication to you 24 was at 20:29 hours? 25 A: No, I don't disagree.
3581 Q: And so what did you do? Where did 2 you go with the blue van? 3 A: I returned the van to the TOC. 4 Q: And now which TOC, the MNR or at 5 Forest? 6 A: My recollection was that it was at 7 the MNR parking lot. 8 Q: The MNR parking lot. And what did 9 you do once you got to the MNR parking lot? 10 A: At that point, I was advised to 11 assist the Number 6 ERT Crowd Management Unit forming a 12 part of the arrest squad for the CMU. 13 Q: And do you recall when you arrived at 14 the -- at the TOC how long it took you to get there from 15 where you are at the checkpoint? 16 A: Probably under a minute. 17 Q: And at this -- who gave you the 18 instruction that you were to assist the Number 6 ERT 19 Crowd Management Unit as part of an arrest squad? 20 A: I believe it was a Number 2 district 21 ERT sergeant, but I'm not sure which one. 22 Q: And what were you told by that 23 Sergeant if anything about what was going to happen, 24 other than you were to be part of an arrest unit? 25 A: My recollection is that the ERT CMU
3591 were going to proceed down East Parkway Drive towards the 2 sandy parking lot and our purpose was to move the Native 3 occupiers back into the Park from the sandy parking lot. 4 Q: And what if anything, were you told 5 about the -- about going into the Park? 6 A: There was no -- never any indication 7 that we were ever to enter the Park. 8 Q: And there's a note, assisted by 9 Number 1 ERT Jacklin, Ternovan, Myers, Poole, Zacker and 10 two (2) Number 6 -- Number 2 District ERT, that's on page 11 16 of your notes? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: What does that refer to? 14 A: Those are the other members of the 15 arrest squad. Bill Bittner and I'm not certain of the 16 other -- the eighth guy there. 17 Q: Bill Bittner was one (1) of the -- 18 A: He was the seventh and the second two 19 District men, I don't remember who that was. 20 Q: And then there's a note CMU Leader, 21 Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And did Staff Sergeant Lacroix speak 24 to you? 25 A: I believe he did at some point, prior
3601 to marching down there, yes he did. 2 Q: And what if anything do you recall 3 Staff Sergeant Lacroix saying to you? 4 A: I don't recall anything specific that 5 he said to me. 6 Q: And what, if anything, were you told 7 about weapons? 8 A: At that time? 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: I don't recall specifically being 11 told at that moment anything about weapons. My 12 understanding was the TRU team were going to flank us in 13 case there -- the need arose, if there were to be 14 weapons. 15 But I don't remember specifically at that 16 point any conversation about the weapons. 17 Q: And prior to marching down East 18 Parkway Drive had you been given any information by 19 anyone during the course of your duties on the 4th -- I 20 mean on the 4th -- on the 5th or the 6th with respect to 21 weapons? 22 A: Yeah. My -- my recollection was I 23 had learned that there were possibly evidence of gunfire 24 coming from the base and/or the Park area. 25 Q: And how did you learn that?
3611 A: I believe that was from another -- 2 one of the other officer's reports. 3 Q: And on the evening of September the 4 6th, were you -- did -- had you been trained in the use 5 of an ASP baton? 6 A: Yes, I had. 7 Q: And that was before? 8 A: That was prior to. 9 Q: Prior to. And did you have an ASP 10 baton? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: So that we understand that there were 13 some officers issued with ASP batons, but you weren't one 14 of them? 15 A: No, I was issued with one. 16 Q: That night? 17 A: No, not -- not that evening, but just 18 prior to. I don't recall exactly when. 19 Q: Okay. So you weren't one of the 20 officers who were given an ASP baton on the evening of 21 September the 6th? 22 A: I can't be certain. It was either on 23 the 6th or the 5th. 24 Q: Okay. But -- and at -- before -- 25 and, pardon me. As I -- when you received your ASP baton
3621 on the 5th or the 6th, had you received any training in 2 its use prior to physically receiving one on the 5th or 3 the 6th? 4 A: I don't recall specifically. 5 Q: Did you receive any training in its 6 use on the 5th or the 6th when you received the ASP 7 baton? 8 A: I don't recall that, either. 9 Q: Now, on the evening of September the 10 6th, before you -- as part of the CMU, what equipment did 11 you wear? 12 A: I wore the same helmet as the rest of 13 the unit wore. I had arm and shin pads, like protection. 14 I did not carry a shield. The arrest members did not 15 carry a shield. 16 I had the baton. Exactly what the rest of 17 the CMU wore other -- minus the -- I didn't have the 18 shield. 19 Q: So that you were dressed exactly in 20 the same way as the rest of the CMU except for the 21 shield? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Commissioner, that's probably a good 24 place to stop because we're going to start down the road 25 next.
3631 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 We'll stop now and come back tomorrow morning at nine 3 o'clock. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 5 sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 8 (WITNESS RETIRES) 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 11 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday May the 17th at 9:00 12 a.m. 13 14 --- Upon adjourning at 5:25 p.m. 15 16 17 Certified Correct 18 19 20 21 ___________________________ 22 Carol Geehan 23 24 25