1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 12th, 2005 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) 25 Jennifer Gleitman )


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) (np) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 9 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 219 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-409 Document Number 13000079, Minutes of 4 meeting held November 18/94 at 2:00 5 p.m. at the Township of Bosanquet 6 Municipal Office. 18 7 P-410 Handwritten notes of Deputy Commissioner 8 John Carson 1995-1996. 25 9 P-411 Document Number 2002889 CFB Ipperwash 10 Incidents Log May 02/94 to August 10/95. 40 11 P-412 Document Number 1000939, CFB Ipperwash 12 bulletin on background, Issue and action 13 taken by OPP re: Base May/93 TO July 14 31/95, prepared by J.F. Carson. 85 15 P-413 Document Number 2002890, CFB Intelligence 16 Report, July 29/95 to July 04/96. 106 17 P-414 Document Number 1000935, E-mail from Ron 18 Fox, August 02/95 and Anthony Parkin, 19 August 01/95, re: Camp Ipperwash Update. 115 20 P-415 Document Number 2000364, August 09/95 21 report to the Commissioner OPP from J.F. 22 Carson, Acting Superintendent, re: 23 Native Occupation, CFB Ipperwash. 131 24 25


1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-416 Document Number 1000923, E-mail 4 from Anthony Parkin, August 03/95 5 12:04 to Nancy Mansell, c.c to Fos, 6 Carson, Linton; Re: Camp Ipperwash 7 Update 137 8 P-417 Document Number 1000924, E-mail from 9 Anthony Parkin, August 03/95 14:04 10 to Nancy Mansell, c.c. to Fox, Carson, 11 Linton; Re: Ipperwash Update. 140 12 P-418 Document Number 1012239, Letter from 13 Marcel Beaubien, MPP Lambton to 14 Honourable Charles Harnick, Attorney 15 General. Aug.14/95 Re: the Chippewas of 16 Kettle and Stony Point. 153 17 P-419: An email from John Carson to Nancy 18 Mansell, c.c Chris Coles, Aug. 18/95 19 13:07 Re: Potential blockade of Highway 20 No. 21 in Bosanquet Township by Kettle 21 and Stony Point residents. 170 22 P-420 Ipperwash: Map of Police Radio Coverage 23 Sept/95, Chatham and London 24 Communications " Tower Locations and 25 Range" 207


1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-421 Document Number 3000574, Sept.01/95 4 09:00 a.m. OPP Meeting, No.2 DHQ 5 London. 216 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 11 Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning, everybody. 14 15 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 16 17 CONTINUED EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: Deputy Carson, good morning. 19 A: Morning, sir. 20 Q: Could I take you to Exhibit 397 at 21 page 199, it's Tab 15. It's a note that -- of yours from 22 Tuesday, August 16, 1994. 23 A: Tab, sir? 24 Q: Tab 15. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the note is for 7:56 in the 5 morning you received a telephone call from Captain 6 Ferguson, LFCA. What's that mean, sir? 7 A: LFCA is the military land forces 8 central base, CFB Downsview. 9 Q: Okay. "Re: CFB Ipperwash", and 10 could you just read the note and tell us what it's about, 11 sir? 12 A: Yes, the note indicates I received a 13 call from Captain Ferguson in regards to Ipperwash. He 14 advised me of an occurrence that happened on the 15th of 15 August, '94 in regarding to Dudley George driving through 16 entrance gate, and rammed MP police vehicle, a Military 17 Police vehicle. 18 Asked if police were involved. We were 19 unaware, or I was unaware of the incident but I would 20 check up on it. 21 Q: And did you do something with respect 22 to that? 23 A: Yes, I had a phone call with Staff 24 Sergeant Bouwman at the Grand Bend Detachment and he was 25 unaware of that occurrence and he was going to follow up


1 for me on that. 2 Q: And it's -- actually, the line says, 3 "unaware of Ipperwash rumour"? 4 A: Occurrence. 5 Q: Occurrence? Oh, okay, sorry. And 6 then the -- there's a note at 11:50, a token call to 7 Superintendent Randall -- 8 A: Yes, and he was also unaware. 9 Q: And did anything -- did you -- do you 10 recall if anything came out of that? 11 A: Not to my recollection. 12 Q: And Captain Ferguson was not at CFB 13 Ipperwash, he was at... 14 A: He was phoning me from Toronto. 15 Q: From Toronto? So the information had 16 gone up through others to him? 17 A: Yes, that's correct. 18 Q: Now, yesterday at the end of the day 19 we were talking about the meeting on November 18th, 1994 20 at the Township of Bosanquet. And I understand -- I 21 showed you some minutes, but I understand that you had 22 not seen those minutes before? 23 A: No, I don't believe I received a copy 24 of them. 25 Q: And the minutes have a -- and prior


1 to the Inquiry, do you recall seeing these minutes before 2 being called to testify? 3 A: I believe they're in the package I 4 reviewed, yes. 5 Q: And -- but that was the first time 6 you had seen them? 7 A: To my knowledge, yes. 8 Q: There's a reference to -- on page 2 9 to -- oh, excuse me. It's Document 13000079; it's the 10 minutes of the Township meeting of -- at -- the meeting 11 at the Township of Bosanquet office on November 18, 1994. 12 And there's a reference to you on page 2, 13 "Inspector John Carson clarified the 14 situation with respect to the 15 appropriate authority to contact if 16 there is an incident. Legal opinion 17 obtained. Indicated that any 18 provincial laws that are broken are the 19 responsibility of the OPP. Criminal 20 activities and damage to property would 21 be investigated by the OPP, even on 22 federal property. However, it was 23 stated that it's not of the role -- not 24 the role of the police to act as 25 negotiators."


1 Do you recall -- I believe you told us 2 yesterday that that was one (1) of -- this was one (1) of 3 the subjects you spoke about. 4 Do your recall stating that the role of 5 the OPP was not to act as negotiators? 6 A: Well, I would have clarified the 7 issue in regards -- the negotiator is referring to the 8 land claim issue. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: That's what I wanted to -- 12 A: Yes. As opposed to negotiator for 13 keeping the peace. 14 Q: And the -- then the municipality 15 lists the -- listed the concerns raised by the 16 municipality. There's five (5) of them; legal access 17 onto Outer Drive and Matheson Drive; safety of people 18 entering and leaving via the illegal accesses. 19 3) Traffic safety on Outer Drive and 20 Matheson Drive vis-a-vis the illegal entrances and 21 increased traffic. 22 4) Use of Camp for possible illegal 23 activities such as stolen cars (see OPP report attached). 24 5) The possibility of an accident whereby 25 the municipality would likely be held responsible, due to


1 the fact that we were aware of the accesses and did not 2 do anything about it. 3 And I understand there -- there's a note 4 to -- there's a reference with respect to digging the 5 ditches and the roads, and Lieutenant Colonel Campbell 6 stated that the reaction of the people living on the land 7 to the proposed work would be a major concern to DND. 8 The response was hostile. He would prefer 9 a non-confrontational role. The recommendations 10 presented today would be forwarded to DND. 11 And on page 1, do you recall that the 12 Lieutenant -- (a), the municipality raising those 13 concerns and Lieutenant Colonel Campbell indicating that 14 he would pass on the -- some of the concerns to his 15 superiors? 16 A: Yes, this is a fair representation of 17 the meeting. 18 Q: And then on the bottom of page 1, the 19 -- there's a reference, 20 "Lieutenant Colonel Campbell was asked 21 if DND will repair the fence and remove 22 the accesses to Outer Drive and 23 Matheson Drive. 24 He stated there were -- there are 25 approximately thirteen (13) people on


1 shift at the camp covering twenty-four 2 (24) hours per day, reporting any 3 incidents. The prime function of DND 4 is to provide general security in the 5 Camp and is not of one of confrontation 6 or repair. The Camp expenses [et 7 cetera, et cetera] -- DND is waiting 8 for further information as to the 9 status of the return of the camp." 10 So did he indicate that it was not DND -- 11 DND wouldn't repair the fences? Is that your 12 recollection? 13 A: I didn't get the impression that they 14 wouldn't, but I think what he was trying to reinforce was 15 the ability of them to do it with the staff that they had 16 available to them at the time, and the issues around 17 potential confrontations. 18 Q: And the -- you told us yesterday you 19 thought there should be discussions with the occupiers 20 and with respect to the response and was recommended that 21 DND should initiate this discussion. 22 And I note -- it's noted: 23 "It was agreed that the sooner the 24 transfer is negotiated and the land 25 returned, the better for everyone."


1 Everyone at the meeting agreed to that? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And there's certain recommendations 4 that were made, including recommend to the Honourable 5 David Collenette, Minister of National Defence, that 6 "He authorize the local Department of 7 National Defence to take the necessary 8 actions to secure the perimeter and 9 access points and roads at army camp 10 Ipperwash; 11 b) Further recommend that the Minister 12 remove the existing bureaucratic 13 obstacles blocking the successful 14 conclusion of the ongoing negotiations 15 regarding the return of Camp 16 Ipperwash." 17 So is that -- were those two (2) -- do you 18 recall those two (2) recommendations having been made? 19 A: I believe that was the fact, the way 20 it was laid out, yes. 21 Q: And there are a list of -- on the 22 document, there's a list attached, a two (2) page list 23 that -- of occurrences in Bosanquet Township area. It's 24 dated November 21st, 1994 and with respect to the fax, a 25 note at the top and it shows that it's from Grand -- the


1 OPP Grand Bend. 2 Was this list, two (2) page list at -- at 3 the meeting or did it come later? 4 A: I can't tell you for sure. I know 5 that there was concern about criminal activity and the 6 action being taken. 7 Given that it -- it was prepared by, it 8 looks like the officers from Grand Bend, being it was 9 faxed from there. But the fax date shows November 21st 10 that it was faxed out, so I -- I don't recall -- I don't 11 recall seeing that document prior to, but it is a 12 representation of the incidents that were occurring in 13 and around that time. 14 Q: But -- and, my question for you is 15 that not all of these incidents are attributed to -- to 16 Camp Ipperwash? 17 A: No, they're not. 18 Q: This is for the whole township? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And there -- from time to time, there 21 are many incidents in a township the size of Bosanquet? 22 A: For sure, yes. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we'll mark 24 that as the next exhibit; it would be Exhibit 409. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-409, Your Honour.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-409. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-409: Document Number 13000079, 4 Minutes of meeting held 5 November 18/94 at 2:00 p.m. 6 at the Township of Bosanquet 7 Municipal Office 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And I think as I asked yesterday, I 11 believe the fence -- the holes -- the holes in the fence 12 along Outer Drive were repaired with -- do you recall if 13 they were not? I think they were. 14 A: I think there was some effort made to 15 do that. I don't know if it remained repaired or if it 16 was temporary in nature. 17 Q: And the occupiers -- it's my 18 understanding the occupiers helped with those repairs? 19 A: That's my understanding. 20 Q: Then I note that one (1) of the 21 people at the meeting was Rosemarie Ur, the local MP, had 22 you met her before this meeting? 23 A: I don't -- I don't believe so. If 24 so, it may have been once, possibly. 25 Q: And in 1995, if we move forward to


1 the summer of 1995, had -- between 1993 and let's say, 2 the beginning of August 1995, had you met with Marcel -- 3 with Marcel Beaubien from June -- he was elected, I 4 think, in early June, '95. Between June of '95 and 5 August the 1st, '95, have you met with Mr. Beaubien? 6 A: I don't believe so. I think my first 7 actual face-to-face meeting would have been in his office 8 in early August -- late July or early August. 9 Q: I think it's -- we'll come back -- 10 we'll come back to that. And Rosemarie Ur, between the 11 meeting of November 18th and the -- September 4th in this 12 case, did you meet with Rosemarie Ur again? 13 A: I don't recollect off the top of my 14 head that I did. 15 Q: And during the period from May 1993 16 to June -- the change of government in June of 1995, had 17 you met with the Minister of the Solicitor General? 18 A: During which period? 19 Q: May 1993 to June 1990 -- June 1995? 20 What I'm getting at is was -- 21 A: I don't believe so. 22 Q: -- it part of your role -- was it 23 part of your role to meet with the Minister or the Deputy 24 Minister or the senior officials at the Ministry of the 25 Solicitor General?


1 A: Not -- not at that time. The only 2 way I would have met them -- in my role as an inspector 3 at District Headquarters in London, my role didn't 4 include interacting in any way at the Ministry level. 5 Those types of interactions usually would occur from 6 personnel from General Headquarters who performed 7 different roles than mine. 8 Q: And that would be -- would that be 9 the same with respect to the Ministry of the Attorney 10 General? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And the Ministry of Natural 13 Resources? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And the Office of the Premier? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And the -- with respect to your role 18 as an inspector in the London District Headquarters, what 19 interaction did you have in the period up to the 20 beginning of September with the senior -- September 1995, 21 with the senior members of the OPP command, as an 22 inspector? 23 A: What interaction? 24 Q: Yes, generally. 25 A: Generally, not a lot. I -- I


1 wouldn't make a lot of trips to General Headquarters. 2 Now, during that period we were in the 3 middle of a restructuring and reorganizing of -- of the - 4 - the Force. As a result of that, I was on some 5 committees that took me to General Headquarters fairly 6 regularly and -- and interacting with the senior command 7 as a result of those kinds of meetings and discussions. 8 But as far as from an operational perspective, my chain 9 of command would travel through Chief Superintendent 10 Coles to General Headquarters. 11 But to your point, if I could just go back 12 to your point in regards to the -- the various Members of 13 Parliament, the most likely reason I would know any of 14 them locally or meet any of them locally had more to do 15 with social functions. 16 For instance, if there was a retirement 17 party, it would be customary to invite the Federal Member 18 of Parliament and the Provincial Member of Parliament and 19 also if we had, for instance, a building opening -- a 20 government building where we would be invited. Or if it 21 was one (1) of our own structures, there would be Members 22 of Parliament and the various ministries may have 23 political representation there. 24 So, it was more on that level that I would 25 have come to know any of the Members of Parliament.


1 Q: Thank you. That -- I expect that, 2 actually, and I guess it was implicit in my question that 3 that kind of thing might happen. I was more -- and I'm - 4 - I'm -- I thank you for clarifying that because -- what 5 I was more interested in was meeting on any sort of 6 official or kind of meetings with -- with the 7 politicians. 8 A: And, in fact, probably -- probably 9 the one (1) member that I would have met more than most 10 at that time would have been Marian Boyd who -- who lived 11 in the City of London. And as the Attorney General we 12 provided security for her at a number of the functions 13 when she was in her constituency. So we would have had, 14 or I would have had, more interaction -- more on a social 15 basis, but -- with her, than -- than most. 16 Q: And after you left as Detachment 17 Commander in May of '93, we've seen a number of 18 interactions that you had with Fred Thomas, the mayor of 19 Bosanquet; the Reeve of Bosanquet; and the meeting on 20 November -- November 18 where the mayor of... 21 A: No, I wasn't there. 22 Q: The -- did you continue to have the 23 annual meetings with the mayor of Forest and -- excuse 24 me, Arkona and Watford after you left the... 25 A: Generally, that would be the


1 responsibility of the Detachment Commander, but -- but I 2 -- I did know the -- the mayor of Forest, for instance on 3 a social basis while I lived in the town of Forest. I 4 knew the mayor of Grand Bend fairly well. Same thing, 5 you know, people that I had seen on a -- on a day-to-day 6 basis; you're going doing your local business. 7 Q: Okay. And with respect to various 8 community groups, were you aware of a community group 9 called, "On Fire?" 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And what was your understanding of 12 the group, On Fire? 13 A: The On Fire group developed 14 particularly during the -- the period of the West 15 Ipperwash shore issue. And they were a represent -- 16 representative of a number of cottage owners who had a 17 number of concerns in regards to that civil suit and the 18 issues around their property values and in their view, 19 lack of support they were getting in order to try to 20 address those concerns. 21 Q: And including lack of support from 22 the OPP? 23 A: Very much so. 24 Q: Now, were you aware in 1994 that the 25 Federal Government, in February, I believe it was


1 February 1994, stated that Camp Ipperwash would be closed 2 as part of the budget? 3 A: Yes. There -- there was an 4 announcement, I believe, now that you mention that in 5 that regard. I -- I can't really put my mind around the 6 -- the date that it would have occurred. 7 Q: Now, we move to 1995. As I 8 understand it, there were few incidents at the Army Camp 9 from January to mid-June 1995? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And that, in fact, in your notebook 12 for 1995, you don't have any notes in your notebook until 13 June 20th, 1995, or at least the notes that we've been 14 provided and that's the -- the book I'm referring to says 15 1990 -- it should be in the small -- under -- at the very 16 bottom, sir? Just pull that -- not the -- the -- just the 17 top one, yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: For the benefit of My Friends it's 22 the book that's got on it "1995 and 1996, Handwritten 23 Notes". 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 2 A: Yes, the first note entry there is 3 June 20th. 4 Q: And these notes, we'll come to some 5 of them a little later on that are in a little different 6 style but could you just quickly take a look, I'm 7 instructed that these are copies of your notes? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the -- would these notes have 10 been made on or shortly after the dates that are noted on 11 them? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And, again, in 1995 and 1996 was that 14 your normal procedure? 15 A: Correct. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could mark 17 this book of notes for 1995 and 1996, the next exhibit. 18 It would be Exhibit 410. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-410, Your Honour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-410. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-410: Handwritten notes of Deputy 23 Commissioner John Carson 24 1995-1996 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Okay. Would you agree that in the 3 period mid to late-June 1995 there was an increase in 4 tension at -- at the Army Camp? 5 A: That's fair to say. Yes. 6 Q: And do you agree there was more 7 frustration on the part of the occupiers with respect to 8 the negotiations and the slow pace of the negotiations? 9 A: That was a sense I -- I believed was 10 occurring. I think also there was a growing -- 11 altercations between the military personnel on Base and 12 the occupiers that was also aggravating or contributing 13 to the discontent. 14 Q: And the -- from your perspective, did 15 you attribute some of that to the frustration on the part 16 of the occupiers? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And Glenn George at this period of 19 time appeared to be occupying a more of a leadership role 20 is that -- 21 A: That's fair. Yes. 22 Q: And you had known Glenn George from 23 when you were a Detachment Commander? 24 A: Yes. In particular, I had met him 25 during the early stages of the occupation --


1 Q: The occupation? 2 A: -- in '93. 3 Q: And in early -- sometime in 1995, 4 Mark Wright was appointed your second in command; is that 5 correct? 6 A: Well, Mark Wright had been working 7 very closely with me actually since 1993. He was 8 involved back during the period when the helicopter 9 shooting occurred and he had stayed involved or -- well, 10 he had stayed involved, particularly -- his role at that 11 time, just to clarify, he was the Detective Sergeant for 12 Lambton County responsible for the supervision of what we 13 referred to as benchmark crime. 14 So any occurrence that meets a certain 15 level of seriousness, he would be responsible to 16 supervise and ensure the quality of those investigations. 17 So it was a natural issue that he would become involved 18 in, in any major incident. 19 Q: And he was, as I think you said, he 20 was involved in the helicopter incident? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And so during the period of time 23 starting in May 1993, he assisted you. Was there a 24 period in time or a point in time when he officially 25 became your second in command or did he simply carry on


1 assisting you? 2 A: He continued on assisting. And I'm 3 not sure I would call it second in command, but any of 4 these incidents, for the most part, involved some 5 potential criminality so it was just a natural part. 6 And as July or as the summer of '95 wore 7 on, it seemed that he was working almost as a 2/IC, I 8 guess, if you want to call it that. He was the other 9 person who probably had the most continual involvement in 10 this ongoing incident. 11 Q: Okay. And clearly when we come to the 12 events of September 4 to September 6, 1995, he was your 13 right-hand person? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And were you aware of any allegations 16 or complaints with respect to Staff -- Staff Sergeant 17 Mark Wright at the time? 18 A: He -- he was acting Staff Sergeant. 19 Q: Regarding his attitude or behaviour 20 towards First Nations people? 21 A: I was not aware of any concerns about 22 his -- his approach to First Nations. 23 Q: And, had you heard of any complaints 24 or allegations? 25 A: I received none.


1 Q: And, if I could take you to this note 2 at page 1 of exhibit 410, this is a meeting I understand 3 regarding CFB Ipperwash? 4 A: Where is it, sir? 5 Q: It's page 1, the -- the note of -- of 6 June the 20, 1995? 7 A: Okay, okay. Yes. I'm sorry. 8 Q: And, that was a meeting attended by 9 Chief Superintendent Coles, Superintendent Parkin, 10 Superintendent Baronski, Inspector Hutchinson -- or, 11 Hutchinson is it? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Inspector Linton, Inspector Martin? 14 A: Martin. 15 Q: And Inspector Carson? 16 A: Myself, yes. 17 Q: That's you, and then Detective 18 Sergeant Wright, and Staff Sergeant Bouwman? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And, can you just tell us about this 21 meeting, why the meeting took place and what happened at 22 the meeting? 23 A: This was basically a review, an 24 update of the whole issues regarding Ipperwash. 25 And I gave a -- an update, basically a


1 historical review to date, an update on intelligence 2 information and the military involvement, and criminal 3 activity that had been taking place in and around that 4 area. 5 Q: And the intelligence update that you 6 refer to is simply the information that you had received 7 as to who was going on and off the Army Camp? 8 A: Well, intelligence -- that 9 terminology is a very broad comment. 10 I guess I'd just like to -- to emphasize 11 that when I refer to intelligence update here, it's -- 12 it's very broad and it's information that I would be 13 aware of whether it was information I received from the 14 detachment personnel working the area, or from our 15 Intelligence Officers, or something I learned personally. 16 So, it was my overview as -- basically as 17 I knew it from all sources. 18 Q: And we'll come back to intelligence 19 later, but the military exit, there's a reference to 20 military exit? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And the -- what was that referring 23 to, sir? 24 A: I believe that would be in regards to 25 the potential of the military -- or, of the base being


1 evacuated eventually. And this particular summer, the 2 summer of 1993, the cadets attended the Base and -- and 3 used the Base in the summer. 4 The summer of 1994, if -- if my memory 5 serves me correctly, cadets attended the Base but did not 6 use any of the facilities outside of the barracks area. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: And in 1995, there were no cadets 9 brought to Ipperwash at all. So the -- the military 10 usage of the Base had been evolving to less and less over 11 time. 12 Q: And then there's a note, "Possible 13 Alternatives"? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: "Military vacates - Glen George"? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And Ipperwash, then an arrow. 18 A: Yeah. 19 "Patrol of the reserve, military 20 response to incidents." 21 Q: And can you tell us what that refers 22 to -- those notes refer to? 23 A: It would just be apprising them of 24 the patrols of the area, and of how the military had been 25 responding to incidents.


1 Q: And were these notes, do you recall, 2 made at the meeting or just after the meeting? 3 A: In all likelihood, I probably made 4 them during the meeting. 5 Q: During the meeting. Then there's a 6 note, "C. Coles", that refers to Chief Superintendent 7 Coles? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: "MP Marcel Beaubien, PC - update"? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: What does that refer to, and what do 12 you recall with respect of what was said about Mr. 13 Beaubien? 14 A: I don't recall any discussion about 15 him, in particular, but what that means to me is that 16 Coles raised the issue of an update either from or to Mr. 17 Beaubien. 18 Q: And Colonel Matt Campbell, London? 19 A: Correct, he would be the Base 20 Commander of London, responsible for London and CFB 21 Ipperwash. 22 Q: "Negotiating update - status."? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: What do you recall -- who spoke about 25 Colonel Campbell, you or Chief Superintendent Coles or


1 someone else? 2 A: I couldn't be sure who -- who made 3 that point, but obviously it was a status update in 4 regards to the process. 5 Q: And what did you understand -- it's 6 either a status update or somebody wanted a status 7 update, do you recall which? 8 A: I couldn't tell you at this point. 9 Q: Then there's note, "Ron Fox", do you 10 recall what the reference is to Ron Fox? 11 A: No I don't know what I'm referring to 12 at that point. 13 Q: And then, "Oneida Territory - MPP - 14 Middlesex."? 15 A: I don't believe that has any relation 16 to this meeting. 17 Q: To this meeting? Okay. Can you 18 recall anything else about this meeting on June the 20th, 19 1995? 20 A: Not at all, sir, I'm sorry. 21 Q: Now, the next note you have is June 22 28th, 1995. It's at page 2 of Exhibit 410. And there's 23 a series of notes at the end of June with respect to the 24 Army Camp and an allegation with respect to Mr. Glenn 25 George and -- relating to a tractor and to a member of


1 the military, is that correct? 2 A: Which date are you referring to? 3 Q: Starting at June 28th, 1995, page 2. 4 A: Oh, I'm sorry. 5 Q: It's at the next -- 6 A: Oh, sorry, I had the wrong page. 7 Yes. 8 Q: And there's a note, June 28th, 1995: 9 "11:50, telephone call to Inspector 10 Linton, Number 1 district headquarters 11 re: incident Ipperwash base, assault - 12 threaten..." 13 A: "Threatening, discuss the 14 investigation, charges expected where 15 RNPG exists." 16 That was agreed. 17 "As per meeting with Chief 18 Superintendent Coles." 19 Q: And what's that refer to, the meeting 20 re: Superintendent Coles, is that the meeting of June 21 20th? 22 A: I believe so. There had been some -- 23 there would have been some discussion, obviously, as to 24 what action we would take when there were criminal acts 25 taking place.


1 I think you'd find that somewhere in the 2 notes there would be some memos by Staff Sergeant Bouwman 3 also providing some direction. And there may have been 4 some memos or e-mails from myself providing some clarity 5 to the expectations of our officers. 6 Q: And do you recall, off the top of 7 your head, what the expectation was back in 1995, at this 8 time? 9 A: Yes it was, in my view very clear. 10 That where an incident was reported and there was 11 reasonable and probable grounds, that the appropriate 12 charge would be laid. 13 Q: An incident reported with respect to 14 the Army Camp? 15 A: Well, any incident in the area, but 16 at that point we were getting a lot of discussion, a lot 17 of discontent, I guess, that we weren't laying charges 18 relative to some of the criminal events. The military 19 were complaining about that. 20 And also in some of the cases, the 21 occupiers were complaining we weren't taking action 22 against the military staff who they felt were causing -- 23 committing some criminal acts, in their view. 24 Q: Yeah, from the -- 25 A: It was from both sides.


1 Q: From both sides? 2 A: Yeah, it was -- 3 Q: Military thought that the occupiers 4 were doing things, the occupiers thought the military was 5 doing things and both sides didn't think you were doing 6 enough? 7 A: We were getting it from every side. 8 Q: And then if you go down the notes, at 9 13:00, there's something about -- 10 A: "Accompanied by Superintendent Parkin 11 to the Grand Bend Detachment." 12 Q: And then at 15:00? 13 A: "Met with Staff Sergeant Bouwman at 14 the Grand Band Detachment. Bouwman had 15 met with Glenn George and approximately 16 twenty (20) Natives accompanied by 17 Detective Speck. Discussed ongoing 18 mischief, assault over night. 19 Bouwman raised the issue re: Military 20 Police taking action. I re-affirmed 21 that we could take appropriate action 22 any time there was a criminal offence 23 regardless of Military concerns. ATV 24 patrols were not being conducted due to 25 safety and communications.


1 Bouwman advised that patrols on the 2 beach expected during the daylight 3 hours with the appropriate personnel 4 with proper radios and they would be 5 tested if necessary to ensure that. 6 No known incidents of aggression 7 towards OPP. Charges were expected no 8 later than Friday. Be prepared to re- 9 route traffic if a roadblock occurs. 10 Negotiate first and advise the Incident 11 Commander." 12 Q: Yes? And then you went and viewed 13 CFB Ipperwash and the Park? 14 A: Yes. I went -- I went personally. 15 Q: Did you drive into CFB Ipperwash? 16 A: Not likely. I -- I haven't noted 17 that I did. I -- I probably just travelled the general 18 area. 19 Q: And then, you went to Forest and 20 met... 21 A: Yeah. 22 "I met with Detective George Speck who 23 indicated the investigation was 24 progressing well. Evidence for assault 25 and threatening. More statements on


1 Thursday to be completed and a warrant 2 for arrest was going to be obtained." 3 Q: And on Thursday, January 29th, 1995, 4 page 3 of Exhibit 410, there's a note at the top of the 5 page. I guess that's still June 28th that you had a call 6 with Mark Wright and updated him? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And then there's a note under -- as 9 part of that note, the last line: 10 "[something] daily log." 11 A: We discussed a daily log, a -- a 12 reactive and a proactive log. 13 Q: Yes? And, what does that refer to? 14 A: Well, at that time there were so many 15 people involved in this and there were so many 16 occurrences being reported to this person and that person 17 and some of it was being reported to the Forest 18 detachment, some to the Grand Bend detachment and it was 19 getting very difficult to manage all the information. 20 So, Detective -- Sergeant Wright and 21 myself entered into a discussion as to how we come to 22 some sense of having one (1) point of tracking all of -- 23 all of these events. 24 So, anyway, that entered into a strategy 25 where we would develop a log where all the activities


1 involved by all the members would be tracked on -- in one 2 (1) document. 3 Q: And in fact, that document was 4 created? 5 A: Yes, it was. 6 Q: And, if I could take you to Book 1 of 7 the -- yes, that should be Book 1, Deputy Carson, at Tab 8 4, there's -- there's Inquiry Document 2002889. 9 A: Yes, that's the log. 10 Q: And, this log starts May '94, and 11 runs through, initially, to August the 10th/'95, and then 12 re-starts in July '96, and runs to January/'69 (sic). 13 What I'm interested in is the period of 14 time -- the first sixty-three (63) pages up to the end of 15 August 28th, 1995. 16 And can you tell us how this log was 17 created? You and Sergeant Mark Wright discussed it in 18 late June and did someone go through and pull together 19 all of the incident reports up to the beginning of June - 20 - the beginning of July 1995? 21 A: That -- that's -- that's it in a 22 nutshell. We -- we reviewed the occurrences that had 23 been reported as formal reports and we also asked the 24 Members that we were aware of who had some involvement, 25 to go back in their notes and provide the information so


1 it could be entered in the log. 2 So that we were able to sort it 3 chronologically and you'll notice by date, time, place 4 and who the source was. And this was also providing me 5 the -- the ability to see what individuals -- part 6 individuals had been responsible for. So I was -- we 7 were able to go back and talk to the right person if we 8 need additional information. 9 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could mark the 10 first sixty-three (63) pages of this document, 11 Commissioner, as the next exhibit, it would be Exhibit 12 411. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-411, Your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab 15 number is that at again? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's at Tab 4 of the 17 book that you have, sir. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-411: Document Number 2002889 CFB 20 Ipperwash Incidents Log May 21 02/94 to August 10/95 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 24 Q: And where was this log kept? 25 A: It was kept at the Forest Detachment


1 by the administrative staff there. 2 Q: So all incidents would -- reported to 3 a person in Forest who would then enter them into the 4 log? 5 A: Correct. And then the log would be 6 distributed to the people who required it. 7 Q: And in the summer of 1995, July 1995, 8 who -- who were the people who required it? 9 A: I would get a copy of it, Mark Wright 10 would get a copy of it and people like Inspector Linton 11 and Chief Coles would have access too, if they wanted it. 12 Q: If they wanted they would simply call 13 and ask for it? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: Now I note as we go on in the summer 16 of July, particularly after -- if you go to page 16. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Could you 22 put this on the screen, as well? 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Certainly. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Actually, if we even 3 go back to June 28th, it's page 14, page 13. For you it 4 appears that someone has starting at 11:50 really put 5 your notes into this log. Have I read that correctly? 6 A: That's fair. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Could you look through a few of these 11 pages, because it appears to me when I looked at this 12 that what someone had done is simply take your notes to - 13 - and entered them into the log, at least in this period. 14 A: Yeah, that -- that's fair. 15 Q: Yeah. And the log itself indicates 16 in July, if you look through the pages in July, that 17 there were very few incidents in July at the Army Camp. 18 Is that a fair statement? Or at the Provincial Park? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And is that your recollection that 21 there were very few incidents? 22 A: It was just -- just the ongoing 23 issues with the Military there. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: And examples of, if I could, like on


1 the 25th of July you'll see where there's campfires down 2 by the beach, and the Ministry of Natural Resources are 3 complaining of loud -- loud music and air horns being 4 blown, and that type of thing. 5 So, it was -- it was -- for the lack of a 6 better term, nuisance type issues down at the beach, 7 relatively close to the Ipperwash Park itself. 8 Q: And is it -- that fair to say that at 9 the park itself, during the summer, that there were those 10 types of nuisance type incidents by non-aboriginal people 11 who -- young people who visited the park. Loud music, 12 drinking? 13 A: Well, there -- there may have been 14 drinking, but the issue with loud music and that, the 15 Park Wardens actually kept a pretty close tab on that, 16 and -- and that kind of behaviour certainly was not 17 common. 18 Q: Not common. Now, if I could -- which 19 would you prefer to use, the log or your notes with 20 respect to some of this period at the end of June, at the 21 beginning of July? 22 A: I prefer to refer to my notes, if I 23 could. 24 Q: Okay, let's go back to your notes. 25 It's Exhibit 410.


1 Now, on Thursday June -- June 29th, 1995, 2 you met with Lieutenant Colonel Campbell, or you had a 3 telephone conversation with him; it's on page -- 4 A: Yes, yes. 5 Q: And he advised you that Captain Doug 6 Smith form the Military Police had been assigned to 7 Ipperwash? 8 A: Yes, that's correct. 9 Q: And there's a note: 10 "Wishes to attend District 11 Headquarters, re: rules of engagement 12 as per...", 13 I can't read the next word, "National 14 Defence Headquarters"? 15 A: I'm sorry -- 16 Q: It's the note for June 29 -- 17 A: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. 18 "Wishes to attend District 19 Headquarters, re: rules of engagements 20 as per the National Defence 21 Headquarters." 22 So that's -- that's the military's Defence 23 Headquarters, Ottawa. 24 Q: Then what's the next note? 25 A: "Will require a meeting with Captain


1 Smith and Staff Sergeant Bouwman, will 2 attend District Headquarters 09:30 to 3 further discuss recent incidents." 4 And Colonel Campbell came to my office. 5 Q: And the note of the meeting with him 6 is the next note, as a matter of fact? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And can you tell us what happened at 9 that meeting? 10 A: We arranged a -- a -- a briefing for 11 Smith, Bouwman, Campbell, and myself, was going to occur 12 on Friday at 2:00 in the afternoon at Grand Bend. 13 Advised Campbell it was an update 14 regarding outstanding charges that were to be laid. 15 Q: And then at 10:00 you received a 16 telephone call from Detective Speck? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that's about Ed Isaac. What -- 19 A: "Ed Isaac from Walpole Island had 20 been seen at Ipperwash overnight, 21 subject known for violence and weapons, 22 warrant last year. Note, AK-47 and 23 tear gas". 24 Q: And what's that refer to, the event 25 from the year before?


1 A: I believe so. 2 Q: Okay. Then the next page there's, at 3 the top of the page on June 29, 1995, you spoke to 4 Inspector Linton? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And can you tell us about that 7 conversation? 8 A: Yes, he was updated in regards to the 9 meeting, and I suspect that's the meeting with the 10 Military Colonel. 11 "Discussed radio problems as per Staff 12 Sergeant Bouwman, recommend testing of 13 equipment, will supply Bill Noble, who 14 is our technologist from the London 15 area in regarding radio systems if 16 necessary. Linton will also have this 17 discussion with Staff Sergeant Sharp, 18 who's the Comm. Centre Supervisor out 19 of Chatham. Advised Linton of a memo 20 regarding reporting, charges to be laid 21 today. Recommend Sergeant Hutton -- or 22 Hudson assist Detective Speck". 23 Sergeant Hudson was one (1) of the 24 Supervisors posted to Forest. 25 Q: To Forest, and was he the -- one of


1 the individuals who was the liaison Officer with the 2 First -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- the Kettle Point police? 5 A: Yes, he'd been a liaison for several 6 years. 7 Q: Then there's a note to -- June the 8 30, 1995 at 14:00 hours, Grand Bend Detachment, you met 9 with Colonel McDonald, Captain Smith, somebody else whose 10 name I can't read? 11 A: It looks -- I'm not sure what the 12 name is. 13 Q: That would be someone from the 14 Military? 15 A: I believe so. It's not a name that I 16 recognize. 17 Q: It's actually in your note it says 18 "medical advisor"? 19 A: I'm not sure what that refers to. If 20 Smith has some medical background or not. 21 Q: Staff Sergeant Bouwman, Inspector 22 Carson and can you just tell us what the discussion -- 23 A: Yes. The essence of the discussions 24 of the Military Police were going to patrol the exterior 25 perimeter of the Base, and particularly around the gun


1 ranges. There would be no patrol of the training area. 2 And after dark there would be no patrol outside of the 3 built-up area of the -- I'm sorry, not the Park, of the 4 Military Base. 5 Q: And the patrol of the training area, 6 does that refer to the rifle ranges where the people were 7 -- were camped? 8 A: The training area would be all of the 9 bush area. 10 Q: All of the bush area? 11 A: Back in the tank ranges and all 12 through the two thousand (2,000) acres. For the most 13 part, excluding the firing ranges. 14 Q: Then there's a note July 2nd that 15 there was a problem at this time with respect to ATV 16 patrols along the beach -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- in front of the Army Camp; is that 19 correct? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: The Ontario Provincial Police were 22 using ATVs, All Terrain Vehicles, to patrol along the 23 beachfront from Port Franks over to, I guess, Kettle 24 Point? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And there were some members of the 2 occupying group who felt that the OPP should not be 3 driving their ATVs along the beachfront? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And the -- there were some, including 6 Carl George, as I understand it, who did not object to 7 the OPP using the ATVs along the beach front? 8 A: You say he did not object? 9 Q: Did not object. 10 A: Yes, there was mixed views on patrol. 11 Q: And on July 2nd, 1995 the -- there's 12 a note with respect to the issue of ATV patrols; can you 13 just tell us about this, Deputy Carson? 14 A: Yes. 15 "Staff Sergeant Babbitt advises of a 16 fax re: Ipperwash at 13:50 on 1st of 17 July, a minor confrontation at the 18 beach area. Staff Sergeant Bouwman was 19 present with Glenn George. Was advised 20 there was a warrant for Glenn's arrest. 21 Stated he would turn himself in at ten 22 o'clock on Sunday. The natives, twenty 23 (20) to twenty-five (25) did not wish 24 to see ATV patrols. Move vehicles in 25 the road to block the entrance.


1 Bouwman advised that he was unable to 2 contact myself." 3 Q: Then at the top of the page? 4 A: At the top of the page I discuss the 5 notification process with Bouwman and expecting that he 6 would, in fact, notify me of these issues and in his view 7 this was a no big deal. 8 Q: And, in fact, you've got in quotes 9 "no big deal"? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that was his view? 12 A: His view. 13 Q: Okay. Then I note that you -- and 14 Mr. Bouwman was the Detachment Commander at that time; 15 still at Forest? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And you reported that you had a 18 telephone call with Chief Superintendent Coles? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And can you just tell us about that 21 conversation? 22 A: "We agreed that we would suspend the 23 patrols, have some discussion with 24 Chief Tom Bressette, get some opinion 25 from him. Attempt to locate Glenn


1 George and arrest. There was some 2 discussion he may be located in a 3 vehicle travelling off the base. 4 Would make some effort to not provoke a 5 confrontation and we had no intention 6 to do a media release at this time 7 until an arrest had been made." 8 Q: Then you then spoke to Staff Sergeant 9 Bouwman and the ATV patrols were suspended and you asked 10 him to contact Chief Bressette if possible? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Then you had a telephone call as well 13 with Inspector Ron Fox? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And it says: "Updated re: issues". 16 A: Yes. "Updated re: issues. Advised 17 of information from a Brian Hay from 18 Paragon. Suggests potential Oka 19 situation at Ipperwash. Hay is a 20 Military Major, public -- public 21 relations." 22 And I have question mark. 23 Q: Now, this is the second time in this 24 period of time that we've seen Inspector Ron Fox's name. 25 When did Inspector Ron Fox come into the


1 picture? 2 A: He went down to the ministry -- it 3 would be just in the months leading up to this time 4 period. It was, I believe, in early or spring of '95, 5 possibly. He had been the inspector at the Provincial 6 Police Academy in Brampton prior to that and -- and he 7 had just transferred over, working as First Nations 8 liaison at the ministry. 9 Q: And "the ministry" is the ministry of 10 the Solicitor General? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And had you known or worked with 13 Inspector Fox prior to his involvement in -- at the 14 ministry as First Nations liaison officer? 15 A: Yes. Actually, I knew him fairly 16 well; we had been on some courses together previously, 17 courses like executive development. 18 We had -- while he was director of the OPP 19 academy, I was -- excuse me, I was acting District 20 Commander of -- of 2 District, London, of which the 21 Ontario Police College is within that geographic area of 22 responsibility. And as the commander of the Academy, he 23 had a lot of interaction with the operations at the 24 provincial -- or at the Ontario Police College because of 25 the number of recruits we had going through the college.


1 And any time there were any incidents at 2 the college, my staff investigators ended up going out 3 there to resolve some issues, and when he needed 4 instructors, often times the instructors came from staff 5 within my district. 6 And so there was ongoing work that the two 7 (2) of us had to do together, particularly around the 8 police college. 9 Q: And what was your understanding of 10 his duties as First Nations Liaison officer with the 11 Ministry of the Solicitor General? 12 A: Well, I have to admit I would have 13 had a very superficial understanding, but it would be my 14 understanding that he would be an advisor to the -- to 15 the ministry, to the bureaucracy in regards to First 16 Nations issues and assisting in the agreements that were 17 being proceeded with, the various territories across the 18 province, in regards to the provincial-federal agreements 19 for policing. 20 Q: And at this time in 1995, was there a 21 division in the Ontario Provincial Police with respect to 22 First Nations policing? 23 A: Yes, there was a First Nations 24 branch. 25 Q: And can you tell us what the role of


1 the First Nations branch was of the Ontario Provincial 2 Police? 3 A: Well, that branch would work in 4 concert with the liaison officer, but in particular, 5 administering the responsibilities for policing in the 6 First Nations territories where the tri-partied or the 7 tri-party agreements were in place. 8 So, they basically administered First 9 Nations policing programs for the majority of the 10 reserves across the province. 11 Q: And the -- can you just tell us what 12 your understanding in 1995 of the tri-partied agreement 13 was? 14 A: Well that's the agreement that 15 provides the policing for the First Nations territories, 16 where there's agreement from the federal government, the 17 provincial government and the local Bands in the 18 administration and deployment of policing services. 19 Those are normally done through hiring of 20 First Nations officers, and the OPP has the role of being 21 the administrator of that program. 22 Q: And at or about this time, or shortly 23 before this time, the Anishnaabek police service had been 24 developed, before 1995, and what was the relationship, if 25 any, between the Anishnaabek police service and the OPP?


1 A: I'm probably not a very good person 2 to -- to really have much opinion on that. The -- the 3 Anishnaabek service was new in the mid '90's and, for the 4 most part, it involved territories in, I would call, 5 Central Ontario; some in the south may consider it north, 6 but more, say, in the Sault Ste. Marie/Sudbury 7 corridor/North Bay. 8 They weren't involved in the policing 9 agreements in southern Ontario, particularly the 10 southwest region, so I had minimal or no contact with any 11 of the members of the Anishnaabek Police Force. 12 Q: And were you directed by Chief Coles 13 or someone else in the hierarchy to interact with 14 Inspector Ron Fox? 15 A: Was I directed to? 16 Q: Yeah. You didn't seem to deal with 17 Doug Scott when he was the First Nations Liaison Officer 18 and I'm just -- from the review of the notes it looked 19 like Superintendent Parkin or Tom -- Superintendent Wall 20 dealt with Doug Scott and not you and how did you get, 21 then, to the -- the person dealing with... 22 A: Well, a couple of things happened at 23 that time. It was in and around that time that 24 Superintendent Wall retired. 25 Q: Yes?


1 A: It's also around that time 2 restructuring of the -- Forest is underway. 3 Superintendent Parkin had been the -- the District 4 Commander at Sault Ste. Marie, and in, I believe it was 5 June '95, he transferred to the London Region 6 Headquarters and worked with Coles, basically taking the 7 job, for the most part, that Wall was doing. 8 So, there was a period of transition going 9 on there and quite frankly, there was a bit of a gap for 10 -- for lack of a better term and with my own personal 11 familiarly with -- with -- with Ron Fox, I simply made 12 the calls. 13 Q: And, what were you expecting to get 14 from Inspector Fox? What was -- what was he -- what did 15 you want him to do for you or you for him? 16 A: He would be the person that I would 17 go to, for instance, if I had a question in regards to 18 land claim issues or any outstanding agreements with any 19 of the First Nations issues. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: For instance, he -- he may have been 22 -- I believe I'd asked him to research whether there was 23 any official land claim regarding Ipperwash Park and I 24 believe he undertook to -- to have that researched. 25 Q: Okay. Then, back to your notes on


1 the -- July 2nd, you had a discussion at 22:00 hours with 2 Staff Sergeant Bouwman? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And he advises he had spoken with 5 Chief Bressette? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And your note indicates that Chief 8 Bressette does not support Glenn George; feels Military 9 should take action? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And is that a fair representation of 12 the telephone call with Staff Sergeant Bouwman? 13 A: I believe so, yes. 14 Q: Then, there's -- the next day you had 15 a call with Staff Sergeant Bouwman and ultimately Glenn 16 George surrendered himself with respect to the -- the 17 complaints against him? 18 A: I -- I'm sorry? 19 Q: Glenn George was -- surrendered 20 himself to the OPP with respect to the -- the charges 21 that had been laid against him; is that correct? 22 A: I don't -- well, wait a minute. I 23 don't see that in -- in that note on Monday the -- the -- 24 Q: It's not in your notes, I'm trying to 25 short circuit some of this.


1 A: Okay. 2 Q: And, ultimately, do you recall if, 3 ultimately, Glenn George was charged with respect to 4 these incidents? 5 A: I believe he was. 6 Q: Now, if I could take you to Tab 2, 7 your next note after July the 3rd is July 27th, 1995? 8 And this is a note that has at the top, it's at page 8 of 9 Exhibit 410. It has at the top "Document Not Previously 10 Disclosed." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And from your perspective and looking 13 at both your notes and at Exhibit 411, you had very -- 14 had no involvement it appears from July the 3rd '95 to 15 July 27th, 1995? Or perhaps to put it another way; not 16 such that you made a note of it? 17 A: Well, the -- the difficulty here is 18 what I ended up doing, just so I could help clarify my 19 note taking here. I started to split out the notes for 20 Ipperwash from my day to day notes because I was still 21 trying to run the district. 22 So I may have the odd note within my day- 23 to-day notes that may not appear here in their midst. So 24 I do have some brief notation on meetings or comments in 25 -- for instance, on Tuesday the 25th of July, I had a


1 call with -- well, again, I'm not sure. I'm sorry, this 2 is in regard to another incident, I'm mistaken there, 3 sorry. 4 Q: I noted that in the log, your name 5 didn't appear from the period July 3rd to July 27th and 6 the -- 7 A: That's fair. 8 Q: And the next note that we have been 9 provided is July 27th, can you tell us about this note 10 and what happened on July 27th? It was a meeting with 11 Colonel Campbell? 12 A: That's correct. 13 "London CFB Ipperwash. Concern re: 14 Native confrontation. Harassing the 15 Military Police. Feels there will be 16 problems." 17 Now this must be -- it says July 27. 18 Q: It says July 27th. It must be -- 19 A: June 27. 20 Q: -- June 27. 21 A: It would make more sense because it's 22 talking about Canada Day. 23 Q: And at the bottom of the page it 24 looks more like June 28th as well. And then over the 25 page is July 29th.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, because this is interspersed. 4 The next note on that same page is June 28th. So it was 5 a handwriting error of my penmanship. 6 Q: On which? 7 A: I would suggest Tuesday should be 8 June 27th at 16:30 that I talked with Colonel Campbell. 9 Because the following note is Wednesday, June 28th at 10 08:00. So that would have had to have been June 28th. 11 Q: Okay. And it's simply meeting with 12 respect to the -- we've talked about the increasing 13 tensions at the Military Base in -- at the end of June? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And I note that Colonel Campbell -- 16 there's a note: 17 "Will be clearing most equipment by 18 July 15." 19 Is that referring to the military 20 equipment from the Army Camp? 21 A: That's what I understand, sir. 22 Q: And you discussed with him having a 23 meeting with Glen George? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And was there a meeting with Glenn


1 George at -- at or about this time that you attended? We 2 saw a note with respect to Sergeant Bouwman. 3 A: I suspect it's regarding a meeting 4 that Bouwman had I believe. 5 Q: Then on June 28th, you spoke to 6 Inspector Hutchinson? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that doesn't appear to deal with 9 Ipperwash? 10 A: No, it doesn't. 11 Q: And -- but then you had a discussion 12 about Ipperwash on June 28th with the telephone call with 13 Inspector Linton? 14 A: That's correct. 15 "There was four (4) incidents 16 overnight. We laid charges where 17 information was available. Linton 18 agreed. A meeting in Toronto regarding 19 Military." 20 Q: And without going back, these are the 21 incidents I believe that involved Glen George? 22 A: I would suspect. 23 Q: And then at 12:00 on that day you had 24 a telephone call with Inspector Duffield? 25 A: Yes, I did.


1 Q: And tell us about that? 2 A: There was information from the 3 Military Public Affairs people that there was rumours 4 regarding Ipperwash of a blockade that came from Captain, 5 I believe it's Mark Bossy, of Public Affairs. 6 And that information was provided to our 7 Media Relations staff. 8 Q: And Inspector Duffield was an Officer 9 serving in the office of the Commissioner? 10 A: Yes, he was the Executive Officer. 11 Q: And Marilyn Murray? 12 A: She was the Director of Media 13 Relations. 14 Q: Okay, and then on July 29, 1995, 15 there's a note? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: It's your note, your advice that -- 18 with respect to the takeover of the built-up area? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And when were you advised that the 21 built-up area had been taken over? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I was called on the Saturday


1 afternoon, off duty, and I left my residence at 2 approximately 2:58, 3:00 -- so it was probably slightly 3 earlier than that when I left, but it would be just 4 before that that I was notified. 5 Q: And are you looking at the same note 6 that's page 9 of exhibit -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And there's not a note of the 9 telephone call, but from this note it helps your memory? 10 A: Oh, I recall getting the phone call. 11 I -- I was paged, and I actually -- I -- I believe I 12 picked up Sergeant Wright at a private residence that he 13 was visiting in London, and we proceeded together to the 14 Ipperwash area. 15 Q: And when it says, "CSO activated", 16 what's that refer to? 17 A: Media Relations Officer. 18 Q: Oh. And so you attended at Ipperwash 19 -- at Camp Ipperwash with Sergeant Wright? 20 A: Yes, at 3:30 in the afternoon I was 21 at the main gate. 22 Q: Can you tell us what you did? 23 A: "I met with Captain Doug Smith. He 24 advises that the -- the Natives 25 represented by Bert Manning are


1 ordering the Military to leave. 2 Approximately forty (40) persons in the 3 built-up area. A bus had rammed into 4 the drill hall and reversed into a 5 Jeep. A bus and passenger vehicle was 6 blocking the entrance at the gate. 7 Captain Smith spoke with Manning, 8 allowed them into the church and the 9 officers mess to prevent damage and 10 confrontation." 11 Smith had opened up those buildings. 12 "Discussed with Smith, he must advise 13 the Natives they do not have peaceful 14 possession of the built-up area, and 15 request that they leave immediately. 16 If not, he will request the OPP. The 17 Military is not prepared to seek an 18 injunction. May leave Base if 19 required. Need to store the files and 20 weaponry". 21 Q: And then "- okay"? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And the -- if not -- the reference, 24 if -- if not something request -- will request OPP? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: Can you tell us about that 2 discussion? 3 A: Well, that was the discussion in 4 regards to making notification to the occupiers that they 5 were, in fact, trespassing in the built-up area, and that 6 he would notify them -- or, my suggestion to him is, you 7 -- if you want us to take any action, first of all you 8 have to notify them they're trespassing. 9 You have to tell them that if they don't 10 agree to leave once they are made aware they are 11 trespassing, then the OPP will be asked to take action. 12 So it was a notification process. 13 Q: And -- but the OPP -- it had been my 14 understanding that the OPP would not take any action 15 without an injunction with respect to the Army Camp? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And did you discuss that with him? 18 A: Well, it's further on. It says the 19 Military was not prepared to seek an injunction. But I 20 felt it was important for him to make the occupiers aware 21 that, at this point in time, they were, in fact, 22 trespassers. 23 So it was just a notification process. We 24 had no intentions of making any arrests, but we wanted to 25 make it clear about the trespassing or for the Military


1 to make that clear, if they so desired. 2 I mean, that would be their call. 3 Q: And do you know, on July 29th, 1995, 4 if captain Doug Smith did advise the occupiers they were 5 trespassing? 6 A: I believe he did not. 7 Q: He did not? 8 A: Not to my knowledge. 9 Q: And he told you that the Military 10 were not to -- prepared to seek an injunction? 11 A: That's my understanding, yes. 12 Q: And then you called Captain -- Chief 13 Superintendent Coles and advised him of that? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And then on page 10, the next page -- 16 A: I was told... 17 Q: You thought that Colonel Sweeney was 18 going to travel to Forest? 19 A: And he should be arriving in two (2) 20 hours. 21 Q: And Colonel Sweeney was the senior 22 Military Officer? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then you had another discussion 25 at 7:00 -- at 5:15 with Captain Smith?


1 A: That's right. I had a discussion 2 with Smith. 3 "He advised of the meeting he had with 4 Bert Manning. Has allowed the natives 5 to occupy -- occupy two (2) buildings. 6 The natives will not [I believe it's] 7 force into any other buildings at this 8 time. Captain Smith has not discussed 9 the general travel access to the 10 building -- built-up area. Advised 11 Captain Smith we will be doing ident. 12 work at the drill hall where the damage 13 is to be photographed. 14 Smith to advise Bert Manning prior to 15 travelling to that area." 16 Q: And that refers -- what does that 17 refer to? The bus incident? 18 A: That's correct, and the 19 identification work to be required by the police. 20 Q: And the OPP was investigating the 21 incident with respect to the bus and the Jeep? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And was that incident of concern to 24 the OPP? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And why was it of concern to the OPP? 2 A: In our view, it was an overt criminal 3 act. 4 Q: And you asked Captain Smith to advise 5 Bert Manning that the OPP would be going to that area of 6 the built-up area -- of the Army Camp? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And why did you do that? 9 A: Because I wanted him to make sure 10 that there was no misunderstanding when the police 11 arrived, what -- what functions they would be carrying 12 out. 13 Q: Okay. And then at 17:30 you had a 14 meeting with Maynard George? 15 A: Yes. "He delivered a document, 16 advised that the native people now occupy 17 the Base. I indicated to him that he does 18 not have peaceful possession and therefore 19 it's a trespass. I further advised that 20 anyone on the built-up area is committing 21 an offence and may be arrested and 22 charged. Maynard acknowledged that issue. 23 Sergeant Babbit [who was a Community 24 Service or Media Relations Officer] was 25 briefed on his way to Forest to prepare


1 a media release." 2 Q: And when you say that you advised 3 Maynard George that anyone on the built-up area was 4 committing an offence, and may be arrested and charged, 5 not simply -- what was the charge that you were referring 6 to? 7 A: Off the top of my head I couldn't 8 tell you which one I was thinking about at that 9 particular moment in time, but I wanted him to clearly 10 understand that there was a requirement for him to have 11 peaceful possession of property, and that if he had 12 forcibly taken the property or taking over the property 13 from the Military, that he could, in fact, be charged; or 14 anyone doing so could be charged. 15 Q: Not that you were going to, but that 16 was simply a possibility. 17 A: No, I was just trying to explain to 18 him the legalities of what was taking place. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Then there's a note, "18:10, Captain 23 Smith," what's that note refer to? 24 A: He indicates that the natives do not 25 wish the police identification.


1 Q: And that's with respect to the bus 2 incident? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Then what happened? You had some 5 discussions with the Forest -- you went back to Forest, 6 you had a discussion with Captain -- Chief Superintendent 7 Coles, and then at 23:35 there's a note, Bob Antone, 8 Bruce Elijah. What's that refer to? 9 A: I believe they -- I'm not sure if 10 they were arriving at the area, I'm not sure what my note 11 is referring to. But I have a note that they're 12 Akwesasne negotiators, or they had been negotiate -- 13 involved in negotiations at Akwesasne, some -- sometime 14 previous, and that it was quiet at that time; both 15 entrances were blocked at the gate. 16 I'm not sure what or how I got that 17 information. 18 Q: Okay. And then at five (5) to 12:00, 19 23:55, you're advised by Constable Vince George that the 20 Military has vacated CFB Ipperwash. "Officers -- 21 A: "Assisted peaceful vacancy." 22 Q: And does "officers" refer to your 23 officers, the OPP officers? 24 A: I believe we had some officers 25 standing by there at the time.


1 Q: And so it was at that point that the 2 Military left? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And what does that mean to you, as 5 the Incident Commander of -- you were still the Incident 6 Commander with respect to the Army Camp? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the Military leaving the Army 9 Camp, what did that mean to you? 10 A: Well, it created some concern. Here 11 we had the occupiers now taking over the built-up area. 12 There had been a significant incident with the bus and 13 the Jeep, only by good fortune that someone wasn't 14 seriously injured in -- in that altercation. And as a 15 result of that aggression, the Military chose to withdraw 16 from the Military Base to avoid further confrontations. 17 There was discussion or comments made at 18 that time that Ipperwash Park is next. And quite frankly 19 it was causing me serious concern as to what kind of 20 challenges it was going to create from a policing point 21 of view. 22 But I also knew, at that point in time, 23 once that became public knowledge, what had taken place 24 that day, and as the Military vacated, that it was going 25 to cause a tremendous anxiety in the broader community.


1 And, I felt, also within the Kettle Point community, in 2 regards to the potential return of the Military Base in 3 the negotiation process with the Band Council proper. 4 So I could see that this was really going 5 to escalate the challenges that we were going to face, on 6 -- on a whole host of issues. 7 Q: And on July 30th you had a telephone 8 conversation with Chief Superintendent Coles, where some 9 of those challenges; I think you discussed them with him? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: You -- can you just tell us what your 12 call with Chief Superintendent Coles was about? 13 A: Well, we had quite a discussion, it 14 was more questions than it was answers, I can assure you. 15 I updated him on the overnight issues; issues of the 16 Military -- of the Military, turned over to who, that 17 Chief Tom Bressette, you know, any potential Band Council 18 resolutions that they may seek or desire, like who was 19 the land being returned to. 20 That -- that raises the issue of, you 21 know, is -- does the land get turned back to the 22 occupiers, those who were ticket holders from -- from 23 years ago, the ones who are occupying at this point in 24 time, or the Band -- the official Band at Kettle Point. 25 The whole issue of who has ownership. We


1 still had some anxiety around the whole agreement from 2 '42, and -- and all that process and -- and where that 3 was going to go next. Who do we talk to? 4 We certainly were having difficulty 5 determining who was the leader or Chief. Bert Manning 6 was doing a lot of the talking at this point in time. 7 For quite a period of time it had been Carl George and 8 Glenn was heavily involved in '93 as well, and it just 9 clearly wasn't -- it was not obvious. 10 So we talked about having Superintendent 11 Parkin come up and -- joining me at Forest and some 12 discussions with Ron Fox, who was the -- as we spoke of 13 earlier, the First Nations liaison at the -- the 14 Ministry, and regarding keeping him up to date on what's 15 going on. 16 Q: You and Chief Superintendent Coles 17 discussed you keeping Ron Fox up to date? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: He wasn't part of this conversation? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And you indicated that -- earlier 22 that you had known Glenn George when you were Detachment 23 Commander or -- and in early -- in May of 1993. Is it 24 fair to say, from your perspective, that over the period 25 of time from May of '93 to the end of June '95 that Glenn


1 George had become more militant in 1995; he hadn't been a 2 militant person as before? 3 A: I -- I think that's a fair 4 observation. And I'd -- I'd have to refer to my notes 5 specifically, but around the -- the incident on Matheson 6 Drive, I believe it was Glenn, it was Glenn or Carl, for 7 sure, but when -- when there was some discussion when the 8 three (3) people were arrested for taking the tolls, we 9 had some discussion to the point that you've made your 10 point publicly, you know, You take your people home, I'll 11 take my people home, and we can all move on here. And it 12 was like, Oh, okay, and -- and away we go. 13 And so, that kind of a -- an ability had - 14 - had been established back then. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 16 Orkin? 17 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you, 18 Commissioner, I hesitate to rise and interrupt the flow, 19 but I just wanted to flag with respect, My Friend's use 20 of the word, "militant," which I think may have overtones 21 that are -- are very subjective, and he may perhaps, 22 respectfully, use another word. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Certainly. It was -- that had --


1 there was nothing -- you -- the problems that -- that 2 occurred at the end of June 1995 with Glenn George and 3 earlier in -- in 1995, were out of the ordinary, were 4 they not? 5 A: It was certainly a much more 6 aggressive behaviour. 7 Q: That had not happened with Glenn 8 George and the OPP before? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Or it certainly hadn't happened with 11 the OPP and it hadn't happened, from your understanding, 12 with the Military? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: That's all I was referring to, Mr. 15 Orkin. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 17 would be a good time to take our morning break -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if you're 20 finished with that point. Are you finished with that 21 point? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, thank you. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 24 for fifteen (15) minutes. 25


1 --- Upon recessing at 10:29 a.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 10:48 a.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 7 Commissioner. Before we begin I wanted to make an 8 announcement that earlier in the week the Sam George and 9 his family and Murray Klippenstein and Andrew Orkin had 10 put up on the -- taken the initiative and had planned and 11 created the ability to get the proceedings by -- by web- 12 cast on -- over the Internet. 13 And the Commission has discussed the issue 14 with Mr. Orkin and with Mr. Sam -- on behalf of Mr. Sam 15 George, and I'm pleased to announce that the web-cast is 16 now available on the Commission's website. 17 It's www.ipperwashinquiry.ca And it's at 18 no charge. But I wish to acknowledge the work done by 19 Sam George and his family and Mr. Orkin and Mr. 20 Klippenstein in getting this matter up and running. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 for your assistance. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Now, if we could go back to the


1 notes, on July 30th as well, you met with Lieutenant 2 Colonel Sweeney? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: And Lieutenant Colonel Sweeney -- can 5 you just tell us about your meeting with Lieutenant 6 Colonel Sweeney? 7 A: Yes. I met him at the Forest Golf 8 Course. 9 "He advises that the land has not been 10 turned over to anyone, that the 11 Military left the Base for safety 12 reasons, and will be an issue for 13 Department of National Defence Ottawa. 14 Captain Smith will be remaining local 15 and available, staying at the Forest 16 Golf Course. They will be contacting 17 the Ministry of Natural -- Ministry of 18 Natural Resources, reference: the water 19 supply. And further information will 20 be forthcoming in regards to the Hydro, 21 et cetera." 22 Q: And with respect to the water supply, 23 that was an issue as the water supply for the Base came 24 from the -- from the reservoir on the Park? 25 A: Yes. It's within the Park itself.


1 Yes. 2 Q: And then -- there's in front of you, 3 in Book 1, the large book that's open, at Tab 9 there's a 4 memo to file from Don Matheson, it's Inquiry Document 5 1010278. And he indicates that he had a call from you at 6 9:15 a.m. -- or 9:50 a.m., excuse me, on July 30th to 7 advise -- wherein you advised him that a Colonel, 8 presumed Colonel Sweeney, was being flown in by 9 helicopter, and that you would get back to him after the 10 meeting in regard to MNR's concerns of water quality, 11 quantity, safety, and camper and staff safety. 12 I note that that's not in your -- that 13 there's no note of that in your notes, but do you recall 14 advising Mr. Matheson at 9:50, or in the morning, about 15 the fact that Colonel Sweeney was coming in? 16 A: I didn't make a note of it that I can 17 see, and while I don't remember making that phone call, 18 if it -- I wouldn't be -- I would concur I probably did. 19 Q: Sure. And then I note, on page 12 of 20 your notes there was a -- you called Ron Fox and left him 21 -- and left him a message to call back. Why were you 22 calling Ron Fox? 23 A: I was updating him on the status of 24 what had taken place, to assist him. 25 Q: And then there's a note:


1 "11:30 Sergeant Bowman advised of 2 status [something] contact MNR re: 3 water plant." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then there was a -- there's a 6 note that you met with Superintendent Parkin at Forest? 7 A: Yes, Parkin attended Forest 8 Detachment. We reviewed the events to date, discussing 9 further possibilities that we may have to deal with. 10 Staff Sergeant Bowman indicated, he was there as well, 11 that Constable Parks had advised him of comments made 12 during the period when the Military were leaving at 11:30 13 the night before, that were made by some of the 14 occupiers, comments that Ipperwash Park was next. 15 Past discussions with Glen George and 16 Staff Sergeant Bowman, George had stated that Ipperwash 17 and Pinery Park were native lands. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. And then there's a -- 19 there's a note that again Mr. Matheson made, but at this 20 time it's Inquiry Document 1010160. It's a memorandum he 21 did on July 31st, that he attended this -- attended a 22 meeting on the morning of July 31st, at approximately 23 11:30 with you, Constable Speck, and Superintendent 24 Parkin and he doesn't appear in your notes, but you 25 recall --


1 A: Actually he does, sir. 2 Q: Oh, does he? Oh. 3 A: Yeah, at 13:20, the bottom of that 4 page, pardon my writing, but it's: 5 "Assistant Superintendent Don Matheson 6 attended Detachment, briefed and 7 discussed issue of bunkhouse. Twenty 8 (20) beds available." 9 Q: Yeah, he -- he indicates in his notes 10 that he was -- actually met with you and Superintendent 11 Parkin twice on that morning, simply with respect to the 12 issues. 13 But the point that at the meeting at 11:30 14 he says the following: 15 "While at the Forest OPP Detachment, 16 Captain Ross of the Military Police 17 informed Inspector John Carson, 18 Superintendent Tony Parkin, Detective 19 Constable George Speck, and myself, 20 that when he was leaving CFB Ipperwash 21 at approximately 11:30 p.m., 29th of 22 July, 1995, a Native person said to him 23 something to the effect, that the 24 occupancy of Ipperwash Provincial Park 25 was next on their list."


1 And you indicated that the -- one (1) of 2 your Officers had said the same thing, that you reported 3 at this meeting? 4 A: Yeah, I would just suggest it's a -- 5 a misunderstanding of who said what. 6 Q: In any event, the note at the bottom 7 of the page with respect to Assistant Superintendent Don 8 Matheson, and Mr. Matheson was the Assistant 9 Superintendent of Ipperwash Park? 10 A: Yes, they -- I believe the way it 11 worked is the Superintendent and Assistant Superintendent 12 were responsible for both Pinery and Ipperwash. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And he worked for MNR. 15 Q: Yes. And -- 16 A: He was a local resident. 17 Q: And the -- was Mr. Kobayashi a local 18 -- local resident, he was the Superintendent? 19 A: I could be wrong, but it strikes me 20 that Mr. Kobayashi lived in Exeter, I believe, where Don 21 Matheson lived in Ipperwash Beach area. 22 Q: Then at the top of the next page, 23 it's page 13 -- 1355, there's a note about a meeting. 24 What's that refer to? 25 A: This is a native meeting at 14:30 or


1 2:30 p.m. 2 "Group and others? ID liaison per 3 person, next meeting at 15:00, 4 information from Bert Manning." 5 And I've got a note or an arrow with Mark 6 Wright. I'm not sure, but I can only presume that Mark 7 Wright provided me that information. 8 Q: And then there's a note that you 9 spoke to Ron Fox and updated him, is that correct? 10 A: Yes, at two o'clock. Updated him 11 about the events overnight, regarding the Military and 12 public safety. 13 Q: And then there was a -- you had a 14 number of discussions with Wade Jacklin? 15 A: Yes. In regards to calling in the 16 Emergency Response Officers. That they were -- the 17 equipment they were to attend -- to attend with and be 18 prepared to be there for a couple -- two (2) nights. And 19 we're looking for twelve (12) officers at least, and we 20 would get extra officers from London, if necessary. 21 Q: And then at 4:15 you had a briefing 22 with Superintendent Parkin? 23 A: Yes. We set up a program where we 24 had -- or a patrol where we had Steve McDonald, who was a 25 sergeant, and that there be twenty-four (24) hour


1 coverage of -- of supervision. 2 Q: And that's at the Park or the Army 3 Camp? 4 A: Well, that would be for the patrol of 5 the -- of the general area. 6 Q: Okay. And then Superintendent Coles 7 attended? 8 A: Yes, he did. 9 Q: And who else attended the meeting? 10 Was this in Forest? 11 A: I believe it would have to be, yes. 12 Q: And the -- who else attended the 13 meeting? There was yourself, Chief Superintendent Coles? 14 A: My notes says here "MNR discussion, 15 Ron Baldwin", but I'm not sure if the discussion was in 16 regards to Ron Baldwin or with Ron Baldwin. He's the MNR 17 director out of Aylmer. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: But I -- I'm not sure what -- what 20 that's referring to other than the MNR interest around 21 the Provincial Park. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And the notifications will be made by 24 Chief Superintendent Coles to notify Bill Currie, who I 25 believe, at the time, was acting as Deputy Commissioner


1 for a short period of time. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: And an issue sheet would be developed 4 for Monday a.m., which would just be the typical briefing 5 note that would go forward to general headquarters. 6 Q: Then there's a note "Military 7 position", did you discuss that? 8 A: Yeah, this would just be the -- the 9 discussion points regarding the Military position, the 10 Kettle Point position, particularly Chief Bressette, who 11 the spokesperson would be for the Native group, and the 12 NCO as being the supervisors available at the location 13 here in Forest. 14 Q: And "Military media", what's that 15 refer to? 16 A: At some point I was made aware that a 17 military -- I'll say Military medic. I'm not sure if 18 it's medic or media; it could be either one "Captain 19 Landale" --I'm not sure what that refers to. 20 Q: Then if I could take you to the next 21 note at 21:30, there's a briefing note prepared with 22 Detective Sergeant Mark Wright. 23 "Janet Vanderberg prepared -- delivered 24 to London for e-mail to Nancy 25 Mansell."?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And if I could take you to Book 1, 3 Tab 6, Inquiry Document 1000939. There's a document 4 entitled "Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash". It's a two 5 (2) page document that appears to have your signature on 6 the -- or your name is on the second page, J.F. Carson. 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: This is the note that was prepared 9 that's being referred to here? 10 A: Yes, it is. 11 Q: And perhaps we could mark this as the 12 next exhibit? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-412, Your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-412. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-412: Document Number 1000939, CFB 17 Ipperwash bulletin on 18 background, Issue and action 19 taken by OPP re: Base May/93 20 TO July 31/95, prepared by 21 J.F. Carson. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 24 Q: Then if I could take you to Tab 7, 25 Book 1, that same book in front of you. There's an e-


1 mail that's dated July 30th, 1995 at 16:47. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And it's -- identifies you as Acting 4 Superintendent John Carson, as the -- the last one, at 5 this point in time in July of 1995, you are -- had been 6 made an Acting Superintendent? 7 A: Yes. I had been doing -- I had been 8 fulfilling that role for about a year at that time. 9 Q: Oh, for about a year? 10 A: I think since June of '94. 11 Q: Okay. And the -- this is an e-mail, 12 from what I look at it -- read from it, it's to all 13 members, Lambton, Kent, and Essex Counties. And it's a - 14 - I take it there's a distribution system? 15 A: Yes, what this is is -- you're 16 correct in that it's an e-mail. It's -- it's a message 17 capability within our then Records Management system 18 where we enter our occurrence reports. So any Officer 19 who logs on to enter occurrence information would check 20 their mail messages. 21 And this message went out on the Internal 22 Occurrence Management System for distribution to all 23 Officers within the Kent, Essex, and Lampton geographic 24 area. 25 Q: And it was sent out by you or on your


1 instructions? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And I note that it refers to the 4 Military leaving at approximately 11:30 p.m. on July 29. 5 "The Military has not given up their claim," and then it 6 goes on, 7 "Our concern is now that of the 8 adjacent properties, in particular, 9 Ipperwash Provincial Park and 10 integrated response is put in place. I 11 am the incident Commander in this 12 matter, Superintendent A. Parkin who is 13 the Superintendent in charge of 14 operations for West Region is an 15 overall Commander of the incident. 16 Chief Superintendent Coles of West 17 Region is also aware of the situation, 18 and has been involved in the 19 implementation of a plan regarding our 20 response to a deterioration in the 21 situation in and around CFB Ipperwash, 22 and Ipperwash Provincial Park". 23 Have I read that correctly? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And that was the chain of command?


1 A: That's right. 2 Q: And that remained the chain of 3 command throughout -- into early September? 4 A: It did, yes. 5 Q: And you're simply -- you are advising 6 people that if they're called to assist, they would be 7 briefed then? 8 A: Well, what we were trying to do here 9 was ensure that all of our Officers in the Tri-county 10 area were aware of the circumstances in the event there 11 was a necessity to deploy them with short notice. 12 And this was an attempt to give them a 13 brief overview of the status of the situation, and 14 prepare them in the event that they were going to be 15 required to -- to travel to the Forest area for 16 deployment. 17 Q: Okay. Then there's a note at 22:00 18 hours, you had a telephone conversation from Sergeant 19 Bouwman, Grand Bend? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: Can you tell us about that? 22 A: I received a phone call from Staff 23 Sergeant Bouwman at Grand Bend who advised of a 24 conversation he had had with Carl George. 25 There was a meeting that was to be called


1 on Monday at Kettlepoint. A flyer was going out in the 2 morning that it was an emergency meeting. Information 3 that, if it was agreed, that people from Kettlepoint will 4 march onto the Base and tell the occupants to leave. The 5 time of the meeting had not been determined. 6 Carl George had indicated that 7 "Les Jewel has organized a meeting at 8 Glen George's residence with Les Jewel 9 and other radicals. No -- no suggestion 10 of more people. Carl indicates people 11 satisfied with [something] water and 12 hydro. No indication of other 13 interest, Ipperwash/Pinery". 14 Q: And what did you take from that, that 15 Carl George had indicated to Sergeant Bouwman that there 16 was not an interest in Ipperwash Park and Pine Area Park? 17 A: That's what he was suggesting. 18 Q: And then, you also spoke to -- 19 A: Yes, I spoke to -- 20 Q: -- Mayor Fred Thomas? 21 A: Mayor Fred Thomas, yes. I called him 22 and gave him an update about what's happening. 23 Q: Then on July 31, there's a number of 24 entries, the second one -- the first one is Bud Gordon - 25 Intel; who was Bud Gordon?


1 A: Bud Gardner. 2 Q: Gardner, oh? 3 A: Yes, he was a -- a -- a military -- 4 I'm sorry, correction, he was an OPP Intelligence Officer 5 out of General Headquarters in Orillia. 6 Q: And what did you tell him, just what 7 was going on? 8 A: It was just a status update, similar 9 to what other people were getting at that time. 10 Q: Okay, and then there's a note, you 11 spoke to Marilyn Murray -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- "update - fox. London Free Press 14 coverage", what's that refer to? 15 A: No, "updated via fax" -- 16 Q: Oh -- 17 A: Re: London Free Press. It was just 18 the media coverage that had taken place. 19 Q: Then at 10:15 there's a note, 20 "Call from Dan Matheson, MNR, L. 21 Kobayashi and director. Attend Forest 22 ASAP." 23 A: Where do you see that, sir? 24 Q: At the bottom of page -- 25 A: Oh, yes --


1 Q: -- 15. 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And was that a call from Dan 4 Matheson? Were you asking Mr. Kobayashi and Mr. -- and 5 the director to come, or was he simply advising you that 6 they were coming? 7 A: It appears that Don called me and 8 requested the meeting, ASAP. 9 Q: Okay. Then at 10:50, you had a 10 telephone again with Mayor Fred Thomas? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And he had a concern regarding Outer 13 Drive? 14 A: Yes, he did. 15 Q: And what's your note say after that? 16 A: That we've had no issues to date; 17 that we will increase the patrols for public safety. 18 Q: And then there's a note at eleven 19 o'clock, you had a meeting with MNR? 20 A: Yes, Superintendent Kobayashi and the 21 assistant superintendent, Don Matheson, attended the 22 office and they will be meeting with the Member of 23 Parliament, Marcel Beaubien, at the Ipperwash gate? 24 Q: At -- and where did you take that to 25 mean? At the Ipperwash Park gate?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And what is -- 3 A: We discussed the potential for the 4 Ipperwash Park. Requesting the ministry position on the 5 occupation or trespassing. Position on the injunction 6 and the consequences. 7 Q: What's that refer to? 8 A: Well, I believe that again is another 9 one of those discussions about the process that should an 10 occupation develop. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: In that the issue of the Natural 13 Resources, if there was an occupation, being required to 14 seek an injunction. 15 Q: Then there's a note at the bottom, 16 there's Wade Lacroix writ -- a hand -- an -- is printed 17 and then 10:21 for Lacroix. 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And it says, "Met with Marcel 20 Beaubien, supportive of police action." 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And tell us about what you remember 23 about that? Wade Lacroix had met with Marcel Beaubien? 24 A: Yeah, that's -- that's what the note 25 indicates. I received a phone call from Lacroix and


1 that's the information he provided to me, that he had in 2 fact met with Marcel Beaubien. 3 Q: Excuse me, the -- I just missed that 4 last part of the answer about Marcel -- 5 A: Oh, that Lacroix had called me and 6 that Lacroix had, in fact, met with Marcel Beaubien. 7 Q: And do you recall anything about the 8 conversation? 9 A: Just what's in my note, that it was 10 indicative that Beaubien was supportive of the police 11 action. 12 Q: Okay, excuse me for a minute. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, Mr. Gardner -- and there's an 17 entry, actually, at 10:50 at the top of page 16. Jim 18 Pinnigan (phonetic), Intel. 19 Was Jim Pinnigan from the OPP? 20 A: Pinnegari was part of the joint 21 forces team out of London. 22 Q: Yes. Was he an OPP officer, though? 23 A: I believe he was RCMP. 24 Q: And what -- with respect to Mr. 25 Gardner, how did he interact with Don Bell?


1 A: The way that would work is the -- Don 2 Bell's unit is what we refer to as a deployed unit, but 3 they work under the same branch as Gardner's unit out of 4 Headquarters. 5 Q: So, did Don Bell report to Gardner? 6 A: Maybe not to Gardner, particularly, I 7 -- I think Gardner was a constable, I think -- 8 Q: Oh. 9 A: -- there, but -- but to that branch. 10 So -- so, to the supervisors in Gardner's area. 11 Q: And why would Gardner be calling you 12 as opposed to dealing with Don Bell? 13 A: Quite frankly, I'm not sure why he 14 called me directly, but given the circumstances, maybe he 15 just wanted to get it directly from myself being he may 16 have been aware of my involvement over the weekend. 17 Q: And Mr. -- Jim Pinnegari, why would 18 he not interact with Don Bell? 19 A: He would normally, but at the same 20 time you must appreciate that Pinnegari's unit with Don 21 Bell, this is just one (1) of a number of their 22 assignments. So, you know, they may be working on 23 various issues at any given time and this is just one (1) 24 of them. 25 So some of the -- some of the officers on


1 Bell's unit may be tied up and unavailable because of 2 other tasks. 3 Q: All right. Then, you had a 4 discussion on the same day, July 30th, with Inspector 5 Inkster of the RCMP? 6 A: Yeah, it's -- 7 Q: At 14:40? 8 A: -- Wayne -- Wayne Izzbester. 9 Q: Izzbester, excuse me. 10 A: Correct. Yes, that was in regards to 11 the availability of the Wes Cam system. 12 Q: From the RCMP? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And it was not available? 15 A: It was not available? 16 Q: Then, at 14:30 there's a note: 17 "Superintendent Parkin will update Ron 18 Fox. 19 What's that about? 20 A: It's just a matter of Parkin updating 21 Fox on the -- the events to-date. 22 Q: Okay. And who is going to update Ron 23 Fox, Mr. -- Superintendent Parkin or you? 24 A: It's impossible to tell from the 25 note, I'm -- I'm assuming that it's Parkin, but it could


1 be either of us. 2 Q: All right. Then there's a note 3 14:47? 4 A: Information of fifty (50) to seventy- 5 five (75) natives, ten (10) to fifteen (15) vehicles, 6 seven hundred (700) metres east of the line on the beach 7 area. So, that would be a -- a gathering of people on 8 the beachfront on the military beach area east of 9 Ipperwash Park. 10 Q: So, it's on the military side of the 11 beach? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Yeah. And the -- there was as I -- 14 back in July of -- the end of July of 1995 were there 15 warning signs demarking -- demarcating the boundary 16 between the military beach and the Park beach? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there was a -- was the warning -- 19 was -- can you tell us what the sign said, generally? 20 A: It would be a, for the lack of a 21 better term, a traditional military-type sign indicating 22 that it's a Military area, basically not to enter. And 23 it would be a large, probably the size of a standard four 24 by eight (4 x 8) sheet of plywood with, you know, the 25 usual green colours with -- with very standard marking.


1 Q: Then, you met at 15:30 with Marcel 2 Beaubien, the MPP? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And where was that meeting, at 5 Forest? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: It had to be either at Forest or, 10 perhaps, it was down at the Ipperwash Park, because a 11 half an hour later at four o'clock, I was at the Pinery 12 Park. So, I had to be reasonably close by. So, it's 13 possible that the Ipperwash Provincial Park... 14 Q: And what does your note say? 15 A: "He's requested information from the 16 Solicitor General and Attorney General 17 re: problem with the Natives, West 18 Ipperwash, et cetera. Briefed on 19 issues re: Ipperwash and potential at 20 Ipperwash Park. Working with the 21 Ministry of Natural Resources regarding 22 public safety." 23 Q: And so can you tell us a little bit 24 more about this meeting with him than what's here? I 25 take it was pretty short if you were at Pinery Park by


1 four o'clock. 2 A: Quite frankly, I -- I don't even 3 recall meeting him that day. It's just what's in my 4 notes, sir. 5 Q: Okay. Then there was a -- you went 6 to Pinery Park, then at the top of the next page at 22:10 7 you got a telephone call from Mark Wright that Constable 8 Dew had called about some campers -- problem with the 9 campers and the occupiers? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: Can you just tell us what that note-- 12 A: Call -- 13 "Received a phone call at ten after 14 10:00 that evening. Mark indicated 15 that Constable Mark Dew had called him. 16 Camper had been harassed by Natives to 17 get off the land. The Park is Native 18 land. Will have it soon. 19 Natives walking through the Park area 20 of the gatehouse." 21 Q: Okay. And at this point in time, had 22 you established a -- that there would be officers in the 23 -- officers in the Park? 24 A: We hadn't put that into place as of 25 yet. What we had done was increased the patrols by


1 uniformed officers. 2 Q: So at this point Mark Dew was a 3 uniformed officer? 4 A: He -- he was likely -- I believe he 5 was performing plainclothes detail -- Detective Constable 6 Mark Dew was at that time. So he -- he may have been 7 doing plainclothes work or some observation work at that 8 point. 9 Q: And you went down to the Park at 10 11:30? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And you met with -- 13 A: I met with Constable Dew and Sergeant 14 Marg Eve. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: All was quiet at that point. I 17 walked through the Park down to the boat ramp area. 18 There was a male and female on the base side. 19 "Mark Wright and myself approached -- 20 approached them, suggesting -- 21 approached them to leave [I believe it 22 says.] Subjects were Native, left to 23 the Park area. Several vehicles 24 operated by Natives coming and going 25 onto the beach via Matheson Drive.


1 Vehicles were being driven in erratic 2 manner, yelling from those vehicles. 3 Two (2) males sitting across from the 4 fence at the beach and I returned to 5 the Forest Motel at two o'clock in the 6 morning." 7 Q: And at this -- as we discussed 8 earlier, Matheson Drive runs off Army Camp Road runs east 9 and then north to Lake Huron on the outer perimeter of 10 the Park and it's the access -- one (1) of the access 11 routes to the beach? 12 A: Correct. Usually what happened there 13 is -- is people would travel up Matheson Drive and park 14 in the area adjacent to the northeast corner of the 15 Provincial Park and use the beach in that area. 16 Q: Okay. And after you got back to the 17 Forest Golf and Country Club, you were called out again 18 with respect to an accident that occurred at the end of 19 Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And you attended with Staff Sergeant 22 Wright? 23 A: Yes. We had just arrived a short 24 time at the motel and -- and I had just gone to bed when 25 Mark was called and advised that there was a serious


1 motor vehicle crash, in fact, a fatality on Matheson 2 Drive. And Mark and I attended the scene. 3 When we arrived the ambulance was just 4 leaving with a -- a male subject who had badly broken 5 legs. There was a white vehicle, I believe it's white, 6 vehicle in the ditch across from the Matheson Drive 7 entrance at Army Camp Road. 8 "Two (2) persons were lying on the 9 shoulder of the road. One (1) male, 10 one (1) female, both deceased. 11 Technical collision investigators and 12 Ident were en route. Sergeant McDonald 13 was supervising. One (1) male with 14 minor injuries is walking about. 15 Statements were being taken by 16 Constable Jacklin and I've got notes 17 here regarding a press release will be 18 prepared by Jack Sterling (phonetic) 19 and Bert Manning was at the scene at 20 that time." 21 Q: And there was a ceremony conducted 22 with respect to -- 23 A: Yes, actually when I arrived, the 24 ambulance was just leaving and there were a number of 25 people from the Military Base, the Occupiers, who came


1 over to the crash site. There was probably in the 2 neighbourhood of maybe ten (10) or a dozen who came in. 3 It was a very, I guess I'd use the term, 4 solemn moment, given the -- the death of the two (2) 5 Occupants of the vehicle; they were lying on the side of 6 the road. We were asked by some of the people there if 7 they could perform a -- I believe it was a sweet grass 8 ceremony with the bodies and we accommodated that request 9 and -- and that was performed while I was there and... 10 Q: Ultimately, you learned that these -- 11 the two (2) people who had died were from London? 12 A: I believe so, yes. 13 Q: And then the next day there's a note. 14 A: If I could just comment. 15 Q: Certainly. 16 A: I believe that this vehicle was one 17 (1) of the vehicles -- while Mark Wright and I had been 18 at the beach this vehicle had been roaring around on the 19 beach area at the end of Matheson Drive and this was one 20 (1) of the vehicles that the yelling and carrying on was 21 occurring from. It roared away from the area and took 22 off at a high rate of speed up Matheson Drive and out 23 towards Army Camp Road. 24 And, we heard a bang. In fact, in all 25 likelihood, when we had left Ipperwash Park to go back to


1 Forest, the crash had probably already occurred and the - 2 - the vehicle was down in the ditch out of sight as you 3 drive out. So, that was kind of how the circumstances 4 developed while -- while we were there. 5 Q: And, at that point, Matheson Drive, 6 it's a "T" intersection at -- Matheson Drive runs into 7 Army Camp Road and it's a "T" intersection at that point? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And, we'll get to it, but you 10 subsequently had discussions with Glenn George about how 11 to try to avoid these kinds of tragedies in the future? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And, the OPP and Glenn George and the 14 Occupiers cooperated with respect to trying to ensure 15 that this didn't happen again? 16 A: That was certainly our objective, 17 yes. 18 Q: And now, at page 22 there's a note of 19 August 1st, 1995, you attended at Forest detachment at 20 eleven o'clock, you were briefed regarding something -- 21 events over night? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And then I take it the subjects of 24 the accident were identified. There's a note: 25 "Need new ERT for weekend systic --


1 District until Monday [excuse me] user 2 for Ipperwash Park." 3 Then a note: 4 "Replace Commander -- campers on 5 Friday." 6 A: Campers on Friday, yes. 7 Q: "Incident Commander - Wednesday - 8 Detective Sergeant..." 9 A: Friday. 10 Q: Friday? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: What's -- what's this refer to? 13 A: We were trying to prepare for 14 rotation of personnel. At this point we had put a camper 15 trailer in the -- in the Provincial Park that was -- and 16 -- and that may -- may very well have been what Mark -- 17 Mark Dew was doing at that point. 18 We had a couple of officers who literally 19 camped in the Ipperwash Park for the month of August. We 20 -- we started early in August so that there would be, 21 basically, eyes and ears in the Park and then there was 22 uniformed patrol as well. 23 So, what this is talking about is, ERT 24 personnel for the weekend to replace existing personnel 25 who had been on duty there and also to replace the


1 officers who were doing the camping detail and look for 2 replacement for myself and look for replacement for Mark 3 Wright and we wanted to rotate that out so one (1) of us 4 would be either available or there would be a transition 5 during our time off, so to speak. 6 Q: Okay. And if I could take you to 7 book 1, Tab 5, it's Inquiry document 2002890. It's a 8 document that is ninety-two (92) pages long, but what I'm 9 interested is the first eighty-five (85) pages. 10 Excuse me -- well, all of it, because it 11 runs to September 4th and then there's a few entries on 12 February -- February '96 and it starts on July 29th and 13 it's entitled "CFB Intelligence report", and can you tell 14 us what this is, Deputy Carson? 15 A: Yes, this is really pretty much the 16 same as the occurrence log that we discussed earlier -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- except that this is the log of 19 information that officers gleaned, particularly as the 20 vehicles coming and going. 21 The officers who were performing the 22 undercover camping duties were collecting information 23 regarding the persons coming and going, the vehicles that 24 were travelling the area and, quite frankly, any 25 observation they made, they were asked to document and


1 collect and have it entered into this log so we could 2 track the events, in concert with the other occurrences 3 that were being tracked as well. 4 Q: And the -- perhaps we could mark as 5 the next exhibit? It would be Exhibit... 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-415. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-413: Document Number 2002890, CFB 9 Intelligence Report, July 10 29/95 to July 04/96. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And the -- where was this document 14 kept, then? 15 A: It was kept at Forest Detachment. 16 The information would be collected daily and provided to 17 the administration staff at Forest who enter into the 18 log. 19 Q: And if I could take you to page 7, 20 July 31st, 1995. There are four (4) names, Eve, Dew, 21 Martin and Dunn. 22 Were the -- they the officers that you had 23 in plainclothes in the Park? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: They were the campers?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And "Eve" was Margaret Eve? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And that was Sergeant Margaret Eve? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And she's since passed away in an 7 accident while on duty? 8 A: She was killed on duty, yes. 9 Q: And Dew is Constable Mark Dew? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And Martin was Constable -- 12 A: Bob Martin from London. 13 Q: And Dunn? 14 A: Is a female officer. I can't recall 15 her first name. 16 Q: And so at -- during August, you had a 17 trailer in the Ipperwash Park as well as -- were people 18 camping in addition to being in the trailer? Were there 19 just the four (4) undercover officers in the Park? 20 A: Well, we used -- we -- if my memory 21 serves me correctly, we used a couple of different 22 campers -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- camper vehicles. 25 Q: Oh, I see.


1 A: So, the -- the campsite was moved a 2 couple of times to give the impression of people leaving, 3 people coming, as campers do. 4 But like usually on a weekly or so basis, 5 we would move the campsite but generally it was in the 6 north-east corner, about the second row back, and usually 7 there was either two (2) -- at least two (2), but 8 sometimes four (4) officers camping there on a regular 9 basis. 10 Q: And we've heard some evidence 11 earlier, you may not know about this, that people did 12 realize that there was a trailer that probably contained 13 OPP officers in the -- in that general area, actually, of 14 the Park. 15 A: The people did not know? 16 Q: Did know. 17 A: I would question that. 18 Q: Well -- anyway, some people thought, 19 at any rate, that they were there. 20 However, you had, as well, uniformed 21 police officers? 22 A: Yes, we deployed each -- well, on a 23 rotating basis, one (1) ERT team at a time to the Pinery 24 Provincial Park. They were housed at Pinery Provincial 25 Park. Then they would, on a twenty-four (24) hour basis,


1 would provide uniformed patrol at Ipperwash Park and the 2 surrounding area around CFB Ipperwash Outer Drive, the 3 general vicinity. 4 But our objective was to -- to the degree 5 possible have a constant uniform presence within the Park 6 or very close by. 7 Q: And there is a -- on Exhibit 413 8 there's a note of a -- on July 31st, on page 8 at 20:20 9 of apparently a discussion reported by Constable Dew 10 involving Mr. Dudley George. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And how did the information get into 13 this particular document from the notes of the officers? 14 Do you know how it was put into the document? 15 A: The officers would submit it to the - 16 - to the office in Grand Bend. 17 Q: There -- and then it would be -- 18 someone in Grand Bend would type it up into -- 19 A: I'm sorry -- 20 Q: -- in Forest. 21 A: -- it must be Forest, I'm sorry. 22 Q: And they would type it into the book? 23 A: Are you -- just so I have it clear. 24 Are you -- are you asking did they like turn their 25 notebooks over to them and --


1 Q: I'm just trying to figure out the 2 process went to get the information into Exhibit 413. 3 A: Well, what I would expect them to do 4 was, they would enter the information on a daily basis. 5 Either onto, you know, a sheet of foolscap or some other 6 report and someone would deliver it to the Forest 7 Detachment where the admin staff there would enter it 8 into this log. 9 So it wasn't a matter of collecting the 10 notebooks and -- and reading it from the notebooks. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: What we have to do, 12 Commissioner, and it's -- the names in this log in the -- 13 have been redacted and somehow I got an un-redacted -- we 14 have an un-redacted copy in this material. So what we 15 need to do is make sure the exhibit copy is redacted. 16 And I apologize for that but we'll have to 17 replace that with a redacted copy. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 22 Falconer? 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, I 24 just thought this might be an appropriate time when 25 dealing with the redactions, if something could be put on


1 the record by Mr. Millar as to the other redactions in 2 the documents that counsel have. 3 Just in terms of where the redactions come 4 from because there's large blocks that are redacted maybe 5 because it's unrelated to the Ipperwash matter or for 6 other reasons. If -- if counsel doesn't mind. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well at the 8 appropriate -- there have been redactions and I think 9 we've explained that in e-mails to counsel over the past 10 about the redactions. 11 The redactions for privacy reasons. There 12 were redactions for -- informant privilege redactions. 13 There are a variety of reasons why they've been -- 14 they've been redacted. 15 We've -- in certain occasions we've 16 attempted to obtain consents with respect to information 17 that -- private information, but that's the basis of the 18 redactions that have been made. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 20 sufficient for now, Mr. Falconer? Something may come up 21 in the future in which you can raise it then? 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you, Mr. 23 Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And also there have


1 been redactions as well as a result of -- for example, in 2 some of the notes of the Deputy Carson where the material 3 did not relate to Ipperwash, it related to something 4 else. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 7 Q: Now could I -- could you just 8 generally, if we could to page 23 for a moment, there's a 9 note of a discussion with -- at 15:30 I think if I read 10 that, telephone call with Peter Sturdy at the MNR? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And can you just tell us what that 13 conversation was about? 14 A: Yes. 15 "I received a phone call from Peter 16 Sturdy from the Ministry of Natural 17 Resources. Discussed the MNR corporate 18 position. They feel the -- there is 19 legal title for the Park, that the 20 title's secure." 21 And that's from Barry Jones from their 22 Legal Department. 23 "The Blockade Committee is to be 24 activated Wednesday. Ministry [looks 25 like] Ministry of Environment."


1 I'm not sure if it's DND. I'm not sure 2 what the next note is, re:... 3 Q: 10:00 a.m. re: water -- 4 A: Water...10:00 a.m. that's right. 5 "Re: Water system. Pressure unit to 6 avoid tower supply from Base." 7 I'm not sure what that's -- something to 8 do with the water system. 9 "Discuss potential scenarios. MNR 10 should be prepared for an injunction. 11 Sturdy to update after blockade meeting 12 on Wednesday." 13 Q: And the reference to an injunction 14 was what? 15 A: Well, when we would discuss the 16 potential scenarios of the position that the Ministry of 17 Natural Resources were -- would be expected to get an 18 injunction should an occupation occur. 19 Q: And so the same procedure that you 20 told us about with respect to the Army Camp, you would 21 expect to have been followed with respect to the 22 Provincial Park? 23 A: Exactly. 24 Q: And then at 15:50 you had a telephone 25 call from Ron Fox?


1 A: Yes, he called me and advised me of 2 information he had received from Julie Jai and that came 3 from Barry -- Barry John or Barry Jones, I'm not sure 4 which, from Natural Resources, re: sacred site access. 5 "First Nations planning to crash the 6 site. Water pressure problem; bypass 7 the water supply." 8 Q: And there's an e-mail, if I could 9 take you to Book 2 Tab 46, it's the lower of the two (2) 10 books. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And, this is an e-mail from Ron Fox 15 to Anthony Parkin, it's dated August 2, 1995, at 7:37 and 16 at the bottom there's an e-mail from Anthony Parkin to 17 Ron Fox and -- oh, excuse me, it's 1000935. 18 There's a certain poetic justice in this, 19 Commissioner, because I often tell My Friends when 20 they're asking questions to not forget the Inquiry 21 Document and I'm doing it myself, so, I'll try to be 22 better at it. 23 Prior to these proceedings had you seen 24 these e-mails before, Deputy Carson? 25 A: No, sir.


1 Q: Let me just ask you about them 2 because we're going to have Mr. Fox here, as well as Mr. 3 Parkin. 4 At the bottom, the e-mail from Mr. Parkin 5 to Nancy Mansell and with a carbon copy to Ron Fox and 6 Dale Linton; it refers -- it's dated August 1/'95. It 7 refers to the motor vehicle accident. It refers to you 8 being replaced by Inspector Linton as the Incident 9 Commander over the long weekend. 10 And that was what was going to happen? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And it refers to trying to set up a 13 meeting between the Occupiers and the OPP at the top of 14 the next page? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And that's something that you were 17 trying to arrange? 18 A: Yeah, that was the strategy, yes. 19 Q: And then, at the top of the page, Ron 20 Fox's email, and, perhaps we could mark this as the next 21 exhibit; it would be 4... 22 THE REGISTRAR: 414. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-414: Document Number 1000935, E- 25 mail from Ron Fox, August


1 02/95 and Anthony Parkin, 2 August 01/95, re: Camp 3 Ipperwash Update. 4 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 414. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: It refers to a conversation Ron Fox 9 had with you and I -- I refer to it now because we're at 10 the conversation you did have with Ron Fox and he refers 11 to a problem with the water supply and that there was an 12 unconfirmed threat that, as it's written: 13 "The Militants were planning a take 14 over occupation of the Park." 15 And he's reporting information that Julie 16 Jai had passed on to him, he had passed on to you. She 17 had received it from Barry Johnson. 18 And this is the information that he had 19 passed on to you? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Then at the bottom of the page, 22 16:50, you had a discussion with Superintendent Parkin. 23 You updated him, as I take it, and then Parkin daily 24 update to Nancy Mansell for briefing note and Nancy 25 Mansell was in the commissioner's office?


1 Or -- well, who was she? 2 A: She was the individual responsible 3 for the preparation of briefing notes. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: She was in the communications area, 6 but technically reported to the commissioner. 7 Q: Pardon me? 8 A: Technically does report to the 9 commissioner's office. 10 Q: But she was -- I -- I was mistaken. 11 I misspoke myself, she wasn't in the commissioner's 12 office? 13 A: No, she -- she wouldn't be 14 commissioner staff. She -- she -- in the branch that 15 reports through there, though. 16 Q: Okay. Then at the top of the page on 17 the next page, page 25. It's headed "Re: Meeting with 18 Glenn George, CFB Ipp." 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And you had a meeting with Glenn 21 George on August the 1st at approximately six o'clock? 22 Or what does it refer to? 23 A: It appears I did, yes. That Matheson 24 Drive, there was a dispute around ownership and regarding 25 Ipperwash Park there was a dispute about ownership as


1 well and the insinuation there was a burial ground. 2 Q: That -- the note is: 3 "- disputing Ipp. Park (burial ground)" 4 And that was told to you by Glenn George? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: That there was a burial ground in 7 Ipperwash Park? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what else did he say, if 10 anything, about the burial ground in the Park? 11 A: I don't -- I don't recall any other 12 discussion about the burial ground, quite frankly. 13 Q: And one (1) of the issues that you 14 had was the gate at the end of Matheson Drive? 15 A: Yes, there was: 16 "An agreement to keep the gate closed 17 from dusk 'til dawn for public safety. 18 The lock at the MNR kiosk would be 19 provided for the gate. There was 20 discussion about the rowdyism on the 21 beach. Will talk to the native people 22 and try to stop that. 23 The First Nations constables -- the OPP 24 members [and what this referring to is 25 our officers in Forest who are First


1 Nations people], that they remain 2 neutral." 3 There was some animosity towards our OPP 4 officers who were First Nations, that they remain 5 neutral. 6 Q: What do you mean by that, that... 7 A: Well, there was some perception, I 8 guess, that -- about their neutrality in -- in this issue 9 and it was a perception that Glenn George raised. 10 There was not much really to it that I 11 could see. I mean, they were just doing what they were 12 assigned to do. 13 Q: And then "Agree Ride - best interests 14 of community"? 15 A: Correct. 16 "The Ride Program, in the best 17 interests of the community, agree to a 18 joint press release regards to the 19 Ride, public safety, that they don't 20 support criminal activity or be seen as 21 a hole in a wall." 22 As the term is, as a -- as a haven for -- 23 Q: Oh, as a haven. 24 A: Right. 25 Q: So that Glenn George indicated -- had


1 no -- one (1) of the things that you and the MNR wanted 2 to achieve was the closing of the gate on Matheson Drive 3 and Glenn George agreed to that. 4 He also agreed to work with you on the 5 Ride Program? 6 A: He agreed that they -- that -- he 7 agreed we would conduct Ride in the area and he 8 understood and agreed to the need for that. 9 Q: And he didn't support criminal 10 activity nor having the area become a -- as you put a 11 hole in the wall, a haven for people? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Then there's a note at the bottom, 14 23:03 Luke George something -- 15 A: "He advised there's no aggressors, 16 referenced the meeting at Kettle Point. 17 Discusses re: Band Council resolution 18 that outsiders leave the Base." 19 There was a meeting at Kettle Point and -- 20 and there was concern about the outsiders coming in and 21 there was some discussion about a Band Council resolution 22 that would direct outsiders off the base. 23 Q: And outsiders meaning people who are 24 not from Kettle Point? 25 A: Kettle and Stony Point people.


1 Q: Then on August the 2nd there was -- 2 you had a telephone call with Superintendent Parkin where 3 you briefed him and discussed possible negotiation re: 4 military and -- 5 A: And the Natives. 6 Q: -- the Natives? That's land -- the 7 land negotiation? 8 A: No. No. This is behaviour. 9 Q: Oh. 10 A: We -- we really didn't see ourselves 11 land negotiators. 12 Q: And when you say 'behaviour', 13 behaviour between the military and the occupiers? 14 A: Well I think it was negotiations in - 15 - in regards to how the military were -- they were trying 16 to work out some protocols in -- in regards to 17 maintenance on the military base. 18 So the issue of the water plant, how -- 19 how that was serviced and -- and the various other 20 facilities on the Base. So they were just discussing 21 possible ways of keeping the dialogue going. 22 Q: And ultimately an arrangement was 23 worked out between the occupiers and the military with 24 respect to the operation of the water plant and 25 maintaining the Base?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that exists today? 3 A: I presume, yes. 4 Q: That's an unfair question, you don't 5 know. But back then it was worked out between the 6 occupiers and the military about the operation of the 7 Base? 8 A: Yes, that's right. 9 Q: And then you met with Inspection 10 Linton at 9:15 that morning and Staff Sergeant Bouwman, 11 Mark Wright and Captain Smith? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And can you tell us about that? 14 A: "Bowman indicated that Les Jewel was 15 getting signs for the beach." 16 Q: And what kind -- what signs are being 17 referred to there. 18 A: I believe the signs were to stay out, 19 that type of thing. 20 "Les Kobayshi advises that the Park is 21 the target. Military to assist re: 22 signage, danger keep out. Captain 23 Smith to 24 co-ordinate that signage." 25 Q: So you're talking about the same


1 signs, Sergeant Bouwman and Les Jewel and Captain Smith? 2 A: I believe so, yes. 3 Q: And was Les -- the note: 4 "Les Kobayshi advised that park - 5 target." 6 Did you advise him or how did that 7 conversation go? 8 A: I'm not sure which -- which way that 9 was going. But given the information I had at that time, 10 it certainly wouldn't be a surprise if the discussion was 11 the fact that the Park could be a target. 12 Q: Then at 10:15 you had a call with -- 13 is it a call with Peter Sturdy? 14 A: I believe so, yes. 15 Q: And you -- it says: 16 "Advise re: further comments towards 17 Ipperwash Park and implication re court 18 order prep." 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: "Need for staff --" 21 A: Staff house for the month of August. 22 Q: And staff house at Pinery? 23 A: Yes. That's the bunkhouse they have 24 there. 25 Q: And that was for your officers to


1 sleep if necessary? 2 A: Yes, the ERT teams that we were 3 deploying for patrol in that area needed accommodations 4 and a place for shelter. 5 Q: Okay. Then at 13:45, you had a 6 discussion with Mark Wright? 7 A: Yes. 8 "Mark Wright advised Captain Doug Smith 9 the signs to be posted on fence posts 10 at 10:00 on Friday the 4th of August. 11 No trespassing, danger, the hydro and 12 water is on indefinitely. 13 On August the 11th at ten o'clock there 14 will be a seminar in regards to range 15 safety. Ten (10) day mourning period." 16 This goes back to the fatalities that had 17 occurred. 18 "Agree on environmental assessment. 19 Agree on military perimeter checks." 20 Q: And then there's the list of Elders? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what does that refer to, the list 23 of Elders? 24 A: That's -- refers to the people who 25 were on the military base at that time that were provided


1 by Captain Doug Smith, the Elders who were living there 2 or camping there. 3 Q: And many of whom were originally 4 either descendants or had been from Stoney Point, was 5 that your understanding? 6 A: The majority of them, I believe so, 7 yes. 8 Q: Then on the next page, it's page 27, 9 you had a discussion at 9:30 on August 3rd with Dale 10 Linton where he reported to you a -- something with 11 respect to Chief Tom Bressette? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: "Tom Bressette indicted that there 14 was not going to be a statement in 15 regards to Stoney Point and there would 16 be no march en mass to Stoney Point." 17 There was some discussion that a large 18 group from Kettle Point were going to march to the 19 military base and I believe this goes back to the issue 20 of outsiders being there. 21 There was a warrant for Lincoln Jackson 22 being obtained and that the lock had been cut off the 23 gate at Matheson Drive over night. 24 Q: And Lincoln Alec -- Jackson was the 25 person it is alleged had been driving the bus at the --


1 on July 29th? 2 A: I believe that's correct, sir. 3 Q: And he ultimately -- there's a note 4 in here, turned himself into the police? 5 A: I believe so, yes. 6 Q: And then 17:30 report on contingency 7 -- re: contingency -- something, commissioner's office. 8 What's that refer to? 9 A: I must have prepared a report for the 10 commissioner's office. 11 Q: There is a -- if I can take you to 12 book 1, Tab 10, there's a letter dated August 9, 1995, 13 that is from you, it appears. Is that the document 14 that's being referred to here, or is that a separate 15 document? 16 A: That -- that appears to be the same 17 document. 18 Q: And -- and its Inquiry document 19 number is 2000364. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And this is a report that you made to 24 the commissioner? 25 A: Yes, it is.


1 Q: And it refers to the plans that were 2 in place in the event that there was a confrontation 3 between members of the elected Kettle and Stony Point 4 Band and the occupants of the military base? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: There was a concern that there might 7 be such a confrontation? 8 A: We certainly felt there was 9 potential, yes. 10 Q: Then on page 2, you outlined some of 11 the things that -- the actions that had been taken. You 12 identify your responsibilities: 13 "Keep the peace, respond to and 14 investigate on -- any criminal 15 activity, maintain ongoing liaison with 16 all stakeholders." 17 And under the term "stakeholders", who do 18 -- who did you include on August the 9th, 1995, as 19 stakeholders? 20 A: The stakeholders would be the likes 21 of the Ministry of Natural Resources and, in particular, 22 the Park management. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: It would be the Kettle Point Band and 25 particularly through Chief Bressette.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: It would be the local municipal 3 officials, be it the Mayors of the local towns and Reeves 4 of the local municipalities, just -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- to keep them up to date. 7 Q: And the occupiers? Were they are 8 stakeholder? 9 A: Absolutely, yes. 10 Q: And then the action taken on the next 11 page, and the fifth bullet down there's a note: 12 "The Inner Ministerial meeting on First 13 Nation issues (blockade committee) has 14 been consulted and advised of the 15 current status of Ipperwash." 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And that was through your convers -- 18 you learned of that through your conversations either 19 with Superintendent Parkin or Mr. Sturdy or Mr. Fox, 20 Inspector Fox? 21 A: Correct. Our -- but our contribution 22 to the blockade committee as far as information's 23 concerned would proceed through Ron Fox as the 24 representative. 25 Q: Okay. Then there's a note:


1 "All information to date indicates that 2 Chief Tom Bressette does not intend to 3 confront the occupiers. This is 4 confirmed through personal discussion 5 and through media information. The 6 local news is now indicating that Ovide 7 Mercredi has agreed to attend and act 8 as a mediator between the Native 9 groups." 10 And you subsequently learned that Mr. 11 Mercredi was not going to attend because the occupiers 12 did not wish to meet with him? 13 A: My understanding Mr. Mercredi came to 14 Kettle Point but did not meet with the occupiers. He -- 15 he met with the Band Council. But I may not be 100 16 percent accurate, but my understanding is the occupiers 17 were not interested in meeting with him. 18 Q: And then the last paragraph: 19 "Should any confrontation occur, there 20 is sufficient ability to respond and 21 react to any violence. 22 Chief Bressette has never condoned any 23 violence or criminal acts. However 24 there are sufficient resources 25 available to address that potential in


1 the worst case scenario. 2 The situation is being monitored very 3 closely and being evaluated on a day to 4 day basis -- day by day basis. Public 5 safety in Ipperwash Park and 6 surrounding areas considered paramount. 7 All indications at this time support 8 the view that tensions between the 9 Native groups are beginning to ease." 10 And that was your view back in the early 11 part of August? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And why were you doing this report? 14 Someone had asked you to prepare this report for the 15 Commissioner's office? 16 A: That's a good question. I'm not sure 17 if I was directed to. I suspect that either Chief Coles 18 or Superintendent Parkin probably asked me to encapsulate 19 what we were doing at that point and time so he could 20 provide the Commissioner with the up to date details of 21 our strategy and basically a time stamp of where we're 22 at. 23 Q: Okay. Perhaps we could mark that as 24 the next exhibit. I thinks it's Exhibit 415. 25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. P-415, Your


1 Honour. 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-415. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-415: Document Number 2000364, 6 August 09/95 report to the 7 Commissioner OPP from J.F. 8 Carson, Acting 9 Superintendent, re: Native 10 Occupation, CFB Ipperwash 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 13 Q: Then on August the 4th, you had a 14 discussion with -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 16 you go onto August the 4th, would this be a good time to 17 take a lunch break? We're breaking at 3:30 today so I'm 18 trying to keep the morning -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the 21 morning session and the afternoon session roughly even. 22 Is that fair? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's fine. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 25 break for lunch now then.


1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 2 adjourned until 1:15 p.m. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 12:02 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 1:17 p.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed, please be seated. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 afternoon. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Deputy Commissioner Carson, I 16 understand that when we were talking about the August the 17 1st -- the entry of August the 1st at six o'clock, that 18 you want to correct something? 19 A: Yes, sir, if I could. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: The meeting on August the 1st at 6:00 22 p.m. or 18:00 hours, I referred to with Glenn George, in 23 fact, was a meeting that Sergeant -- Detective Sergeant 24 Wright had and that was the information he relayed to me. 25 I believe I indicated that it was a meeting that I had,


1 but it wasn't -- wasn't my meeting, specifically, it was 2 Mark's meeting and he relayed that information to me, it 3 was an update to me. 4 Q: And is there a note... 5 A: We -- if we refer to the Occurrence 6 Logs, you'll see some indication from Detective Sergeant 7 Wright in regards to his meeting and that he returned to 8 update me on that information. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is the sound 10 not on? I can hear it. The sound doesn't seem to be on. 11 I'm... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You may have 16 to repeat that. Did you get that on the transcript? I 17 think you should repeat it for the people who didn't hear 18 it. Would you mind repeating that? 19 THE WITNESS: Sure. The meeting on 20 August the 1st that I indicated at 18:00 hours or 6:00 21 p.m. with Glenn George, I had indicated that the meeting 22 was between myself and Glenn George, but in fact, from 23 the documentation in the -- the Occurrence Log, that was 24 actually a meeting that was -- that occurred with Mark 25 Wright and Glenn George at approximately four o'clock and


1 that was the update from Mark Wright to me as a result of 2 that meeting. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And we can see that if we go to 6 Inquiry Document 2002889 Exhibit 411 at Tab 4 page 43, 7 there's note: 8 "August 1, 1600, Wright meeting with 9 Glenn George." 10 And, that's at page 43. At page 44 there's 11 Mr. Bow -- Sergeant's Bouwman's note with respect to the 12 same -- same meeting. And, then at 16 -- at 18:00 hours 13 at page 46 is your note. 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And you're being briefed at that 16 point by Staff Sergeant -- by Sergeant Mark Wright? 17 A: Correct. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Then, if I could take you to Tab -- 22 Book 2 Tab 47 for a moment. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: There's an e-mail that's from 2 Superintendent Parkin to Nancy Mansell with a copy to Ron 3 Fox, yourself and Inspector Linton, it's dated August the 4 3rd, 1995 at 12:04, and did you receive a copy of this? 5 It's -- excuse me, it's Inquiry Document 1000923; do you 6 -- did you receive a copy of this e-mail at or about -- 7 on or about August the 3rd? 8 A: I don't recall the particular, but 9 I'm on the address list, so I would make the assumption 10 that I, in fact, did receive it. 11 Q: And there's a reference in the second 12 paragraph -- the first paragraph: 13 "Fairly quite over night, however, lock 14 on newly erected gate at junction of 15 Army Camp Road and Matheson Drive was 16 cut." 17 Then there's a reference to Clive Lincoln 18 Jackson, who we've referred to before and then on -- 19 there's a note: 20 "On August -- Friday, August 4, 1995, 21 Captain Doug Smith said the Military is 22 going onto the Base with the 23 cooperation of the Occupiers to show 24 them how to work the hydro and water 25 systems. They will put them up -- they


1 will put up danger signs indicating 2 unexploded ammunition and provide a 3 safety talk on how people should react 4 if they think they've found live ammo, 5 basically don't touch and call for 6 help. They are also going to put up 7 four by eight (4 x 8) plywood sheets on 8 the beach to warn boaters who may 9 anchor offsite and wander onto Military 10 property." 11 And those are the signs -- those are the 12 same signs we referred to before? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And then the MR -- MNR was going to 15 deal with the pumphouse, a bypass and then at the -- the 16 last paragraph: 17 "Environmental evaluation all sides. 18 Tom Bressette for Kettle Point, Glenn 19 George for the Occupiers and the 20 Military are in agreement that it is 21 necessary. The problem is that 22 Military will only negotiate with 23 Bressette, as they do not recognize 24 Occupiers. 25 Bressette has not recognized Occupiers


1 in the past, however, he is now saying 2 that while he didn't contone -- condone 3 their actions, he understood the 4 frustration. He wants the outsiders to 5 leave the Base (Americans, et al) and 6 he will negotiate on behalf of the 7 special interests of the Occupiers." 8 And was that your understanding of the 9 position of Chief Tom Bressette at -- on August the 3rd, 10 1995? 11 A: Yes, it was. 12 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 13 exhibit, it would be Exhibit 4... 14 THE REGISTRAR: 16. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-416, Your Honour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-416. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-416: Document Number 1000923, E- 20 mail from Anthony Parkin, 21 August 03/95 12:04 to Nancy 22 Mansell, c.c to Fos, Carson, 23 Linton; Re: Camp Ipperwash 24 Update 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Then, at Book 2 Tab 48 there's an e- 3 mail again from Mr. Parkin, this time -- and again to 4 Nancy Mansell with a copy to Ron Fox, to you and 5 Inspector Linton. It's sent August the 3rd, 1995 at 6 14:04. It's Inquiry Document 1000924. 7 Do you see that e-mail, sir? 8 A: Yes, sir, I do. 9 Q: And do you recall receiving a copy of 10 this e-mail? 11 A: I don't recall a copy of it, but I am 12 on the distribution list. I -- I must have received it. 13 Q: And it refers to something we already 14 spoke about. In the first paragraph: 15 "Chief Tom Bressette held a press 16 conference this date and indicated that 17 after talking with Band -- the Band 18 Elders and Grand Chief Ovide Mercredi, 19 they would not confront the Occupiers 20 of the Base or try to evict them. He 21 indicates that Mercredi has offered to 22 assist in this issue as a mediator. 23 John McNair is the lawyer for the 24 Occupiers and he also spoke with the 25 press, indicating it is their desire to


1 negotiate the land issue. It would 2 appear things are slowly moving towards 3 a peaceful resolution, although not all 4 of the Occupiers listen or take 5 direction from the people speaking for 6 the group. 7 During Bressette's interview, some 8 Occupiers confronted Global News 9 reporters and demanded the tape be 10 turned over to them as Global had 11 videoed their sacred fire which is 12 burning for the two (2) people killed 13 in the car accident. Global turned 14 over the video and one (1) of our 15 members was called to assist. He spoke 16 with the reporters and they indicated 17 they wanted nothing done and there was 18 no problem." 19 And with respect to the -- did you see the 20 -- the press conference held by Chief Tom Bressette? 21 A: I couldn't tell you if I did or I 22 didn't. 23 Q: Perhaps we could mark that as the 24 next exhibit, it would be 417. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-417, Your Honour.


1 2 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-417: Document Number 1000924, E- 3 mail from Anthony Parkin, 4 August 03/95 14:04 to Nancy 5 Mansell, c.c. to Fox, Carson, 6 Linton; Re: Ipperwash Update. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Then, on your notes, in book -- at 10 page 27 August the 4th, '95 at 8:15 you received a 11 telephone call from Pete Lawlor, L-A-W-L-O-R? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And he's from OPP General 14 Headquarters Intelligence? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And what's this about? 17 A: He's advising me of information he's 18 received through an informant in regards to three (3) 19 outsiders at the Base, that being Les Jewel, Russ Jewel, 20 and Buck Doxtator; that Russ Jewel had military 21 experience, particularly with explosive experience, was 22 known as a follower and also indicated that Glenn George 23 had some new-found importance in recent days. 24 Q: And do you recall anything else of 25 that conversation?


1 A: Just the notes that I have, sir. 2 Q: All right. Then, on the next day, on 3 the next page, it's page 28. 4 A: Yes? 5 Q: There's a note: 6 "Wednesday, August 9, 10:30 meeting 7 with Major Karl..." 8 Is it "Hair?" It's August 9, 1995, sir. 9 A: Oh, that's Karl Heck, H-E-C-K. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: "Meeting yesterday at Kettle Point 12 with Fred Maguire. Information from 13 CSIS Kettle Point." 14 Q: Where are you reading? You and I are 15 reading from two (2) different notes here. 16 A: I'm sorry. 17 Q: Mine is -- says -- 18 A: Oh, I'm sorry, there's another entry 19 regarding Karl Heck the next day. I'm looking at the 20 wrong side of the page here. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: You're referring to the 10:30 entry? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: "Meeting with Karl Heck regarding 25 Ipperwash. Renewed -- reviewed


1 incidents to date. Discussed back -- 2 backhoe and forklift. Will be reviewed 3 by Captain Smith, intelligence meeting 4 Thursday with the RCMP." 5 Q: And who is Major Karl Heck? 6 A: Carl Heck is an intelligence officer 7 for the Military. 8 Q: Okay. And had you interacted with 9 him before? 10 A: I'm not sure if this is the first 11 time he's on the scene, but I certainly knew of him. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: But I couldn't be sure if that's the 14 first meeting I had with him or not. 15 Q: And then at 10:21 there's a telephone 16 call from Detective George Speck? 17 A: Yes, a call from George Speck. 18 "Ed Isaac had delivered a pool table. 19 There had been gunshots in the air a 20 couple of nights ago. David George was 21 yelling at campers from the dunes. Box 22 -- Buck Doxtator has been at the Base. 23 Believe that Glenn George has a 24 handgun." 25 Q: And, I said a conversation at 10:21,


1 but 10:21 refers to the fact that it's a telephone call? 2 A: That I received a phone call, that's 3 correct. 4 Q: And this was simply information that 5 George Speck was passing on to you? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Then, at twelve o'clock you had a 8 meeting with... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Some -- we're having a 13 little more -- somehow we're having a technical problem 14 with the mic because Deputy Carson keeps disappearing. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It seems 16 like it's on. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, there... 18 THE WITNESS: Can you hear me now? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, that's good. 20 THE WITNESS: I can speak up. The 21 meeting was with Staff Sergeant Wayne Lickman, Acting 22 Inspector Gary Martin and Mark Wright. 23 "Lickman advised that the -- the call 24 from George Speck, information from 25 Captain Smith that he had received from


1 Les Jewel Friday, August 11th. It was 2 going to be a breakfast with two 3 hundred (200) youth, a conference 4 involving Elders, a convoy to Ipperwash 5 and it was going to be a weekend at the 6 Camp." 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And then, on page 29 there's a note, 10 Monday August 8th, '95, at 09:00. Oh, it's -- with a 11 telephone call with Superintendent Parkin? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what was this about? 14 A: It indicates that: 15 "There's a letter to the Minister from 16 the member of parliament, Mr. Beaubien 17 re: concerns about policing in West 18 Ipperwash, regarding some meeting on 19 Friday, August the 11th. 20 Point number 7 in his letter indicates 21 that law enforcement is non-existent. 22 The OPP is not interested to get 23 involved." 24 Q: And West Ipperwash was -- related to 25 the beach near Kettle Point --


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: -- that we spoke about? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And did you see the letter from Mr. 5 Beaubien? 6 A: I don't know if I eventually did see 7 it or not, but when we were having this discussion, I 8 didn't have a copy of it, I don't believe. 9 Q: Okay. And then the next note at page 10 30 is a note of August 11th, 1995, and it's a meeting in 11 Petrolia with Mr. Beaubien? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And that meeting was attended by 14 yourself, Superintendent Parkin, Inspector Linton and 15 Staff Sergeant Lacroix? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And the note simply says: 18 "Discussed Ipperwash base, West 19 Ipperwash, Walpole." 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And there's a letter -- do you -- 22 what do you recall of that meeting? 23 A: Well, that meeting we met with Mr. 24 Beaubien in his constituency office in Petrolia which is 25 located, for lack of a better term, directly across the


1 street from our Detachment. 2 In regards to his concerns, I believe it 3 was as a result of that letter that we referred to a few 4 moments ago. We had a number of issues that were very 5 current at that time. 6 We had a number of issues we were dealing 7 with at Walpole Island. We had a number of officers 8 working there, working with the chief and council and 9 there was the issues of the cottagers in the West 10 Ipperwash area, then, of course, there was the military 11 base issues. 12 So, all -- all of those issues were 13 discussed but we were trying to reassure Mr. Beaubien 14 that we were well aware of the issues; we were concerned 15 about the perceptions in the community; understood the 16 concerns and we were -- we believed we were providing the 17 policing services that were required and appropriate for 18 us to do -- in regards to each of those incidents. 19 Q: And who was the principle spokesman 20 for the Ontario Provincial Police at the meeting? 21 A: Well, the senior officer was 22 Superintendent Parkin, but I would suggest there was 23 certainly no sense that any of us couldn't speak our 24 mind. 25 Q: So everyone participated?


1 A: Yes, I think that's fair. 2 Q: And -- 3 A: It was clear that Staff Sergeant 4 Lacroix and Marcel Beaubien had met on other occasions. 5 They were clearly able to speak very freely. 6 Q: And Staff Sergeant Lacroix, at the 7 time, was the Detachment Commander in Petrolia? 8 A: Correct and he lived in Petrolia, had 9 lived in Petrolia for quite some time and Mr. Beaubien 10 had been the previous Mayor of the town of Petrolia. 11 Q: Until he became elected to -- 12 A: I believe so -- 13 Q: -- provincial parliament? 14 A: -- yes. 15 Q: Now, I put before you a document. 16 It's Inquiry Document 10012239 and the first page is 17 simply a fax cover sheet to Peter Sturdy from Jim Jackson 18 dated September 5, 1995. 19 But attached to it is a note, Ministry of 20 Natural Resources. It's a -- it appears to be an 21 internal document from the ministry and it relates to a 22 letter addressed to Mr. Harnick, dated August 14th, 1995. 23 And attached to it is a letter dated August 14, 1995, 24 from Mr. Marcel Beaubien to the Honourable Charles 25 Harnick, the Attorney General at the time.


1 And have you seen this letter before? 2 A: I believe so. 3 Q: And this letter purports to -- we -- 4 a report on the meeting with you, Inspector Linton, 5 Superintendent Parkin and Staff Sergeant Lacroix? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And he indicates that the -- in this 8 second paragraph: 9 "They were here to discuss the issues 10 at Ipperwash Provincial Park, the West 11 Ipperwash Property Owners Association 12 and the First Nation of Kettle and 13 Stoney Point. 14 We are not concerned with the takeover 15 of the Camp Ipperwash Army Camp as this 16 is a federal matter. What does concern 17 us is Ipperwash Provincial Park, a park 18 campground owned and operated by the 19 Ministry of Natural Resources, the OPP 20 are providing twenty-four (24) hour 21 protection and I am sure that you are 22 aware additional police protection has 23 been provided on the site." 24 Then there's a reference to the West 25 Ipperwash Property Owners Association. And then at the


1 bottom of the page he says: 2 "The representatives from the OPP and 3 myself have reached the following 4 consensus..." 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Could you repeat the 6 document number? I think you gave us extra digits. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 1012239. 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Okay. You gave us two 9 (2) zeros, no problem. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'll just stop for a 11 moment, Commissioner, to let My Friends -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's not always easy 14 to... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm at the bottom of 20 page 1. And then he lists a number of things: 21 "1) As the Ipperwash campground is 22 provincially owned. We should be in a 23 position to legally uphold this 24 property. 25 2) Enforcement is only a short term


1 solution. 2 3) Ministries involved have to give 3 the OPP clearer guidelines for law 4 enforcement. 5 4) The long term solution is 6 negotiated settlement." 7 And then he goes on to say in a separate 8 paragraph: 9 "However, we need to see a clear stand 10 and what provincial ownership of land 11 means. And the laws of the province -- 12 and that the laws of the province will 13 be upheld. This needs to be made very 14 clear without delay." 15 The -- is Mr. Beaubien correct in 16 representing in the letter that the representatives from 17 the OPP and himself had reached the following consensus, 18 those four (4) items? 19 A: I'm not sure I would really 20 categorize it in -- with that terminology. There was 21 certainly discussion about how we would go about it; 22 about the issue, about clear title in regards to the 23 Provincial Park and the issues of law enforcement. 24 I'm not sure I would concur that the 25 Ministry have to give the OPP clear guidelines for law


1 enforcement. I think we were pretty certain what our law 2 enforcement responsibilities were. 3 The only point might be made there in the 4 event of an occupation, the issue around of a court 5 injunction that may provide some legal direction around 6 the issue of ownership. 7 Q: Was the issue of an injunction raised 8 at the meeting, do you recall? 9 A: Well I don't have any note to that 10 affect. Given the circumstances we had been dealing with 11 over a significant period of time at the military base 12 and discussions already occurring with the Ministry of 13 Natural Resources, I'd be greatly surprised if that was 14 not discussed at some length because we had already 15 deployed additional staff into that area and I would 16 suspect or believe that we would have made it clear of 17 the process should -- should these circumstances 18 escalate. 19 Q: But do you have -- what I'm most 20 concerned about is item 3: 21 "Ministry involve -- Ministries 22 involved have to give the OPP clear 23 guidelines for law enforcement." 24 You think that refers, do you, to a 25 discussion about an injunction?


1 A: Well, what I would suggest is that 2 would be an interpretation of the discussion by Mr. 3 Beaubien as opposed -- I mean, if that terminology was 4 put before me, I would have said, well, I would suggest 5 to you maybe make a different approach to that statement. 6 Q: But your position would have been 7 that the OPP understands the guidelines for law 8 enforcement? 9 A: I believe we have a sound 10 understanding of that. 11 Q: And the -- he goes on to say, 12 "Please note the properly elected First 13 Nation officials are supportive of 14 upholding the laws of the land. We 15 have a small number of dissidents 16 making a mockery of the system. 17 As detailed to Ministers Hodgson, 18 Harnick, and Runciman we will take the 19 following position until further 20 instruction is received from the 21 ministries. 22 We will be legally prepared to uphold 23 Ipperwash Park. Enforcement is a short 24 term solution, and we need the 25 ministries to give clear guidelines to


1 the OPP for enforcement. 2 We would like a negotiated settlement. 3 Failing that, a clear stand of what are 4 provincial matters and that the law 5 will be upheld. This is an opportune 6 time as elected First Nation officials 7 are supportive in upholding the law." 8 I take it that, in that paragraph he's 9 speaking for himself and not for you and the other 10 members of the OPP that were at the meeting? 11 A: Clearly. 12 Q: And prior to this letter being sent, 13 were you shown a draft of the letter? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: And I note the letter's shown -- copy 16 is being shown as being sent to Mr. Newman at the 17 Ministry of Attorney General, Mr. Runciman, Mr. Simzer at 18 the Ministry of the Solicitor General and Mr. Hodson, the 19 Minister of Natural Resources. 20 Perhaps we could mark that as the next 21 exhibit. It would be Exhibit 418. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-418, your Honour. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-418. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-418: Document Number 1012239,


1 Letter from Marcel Beaubien, 2 MPP Lambton to Honourable 3 Charles Harnick, Attorney 4 General. Aug.14/95 Re: the 5 Chippewas of Kettle and Stony 6 Point. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Then... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: At 22:10 on August the 11th, you 14 received a telephone call from a John Slavick, at the 15 bottom of the page, sir. 16 A: John Slack. 17 Q: Slack, excuse me. 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: That's Constable Slack? 20 A: He's a sergeant. 21 Q: Hmm hmm -- Sergeant Slack, yeah. And 22 what was that about? 23 A: "Sergeant Slack indicated that 24 Constable 25 Horizempa (phonetic) and Paul had


1 checked three (3) natives in the 2 Ipperwash Park. 3 Horizempa recognized one (1) youth that 4 he believed was wanted in regards to a 5 break and enter. The subject fled. As 6 a result, a foot chase took place and 7 he was arrested. A verbal ID as 8 Simons. He was taken to Kettle Point 9 where Constable Duff Bressette 10 identified the individual and he was 11 only wanted for drive under suspension. 12 Ten (10) natives attended the Grand 13 Bend Detachment to complain that the 14 subject was arrested and Sergeant Slack 15 was checking on the status of the 16 individual." 17 Q: And we've heard about this from Mr. 18 Simon. Mr. Simon -- it was a case of mistaken identity 19 on the part of the police officer? 20 A: That's what it appears. 21 Q: And were you aware that the police 22 officers dropped Mr. Simon at Kettle Point and he had to 23 walk back to Stoney Point? 24 A: I wasn't aware of that part. I think 25 the reason they -- the notes indicate they went to Kettle


1 Point for the First Nations officer Constable Bressette 2 was to identify the individual. It's apparent that their 3 identification was an issue at Ipperwash Park. 4 Q: Then, on August -- the next note is - 5 - is it August the 11th or what date's on the next note 6 on page... 7 A: I believe it's the 15th. 8 Q: August 15th, yes? 9 A: "Call from Staff Sergeant Bouwman. 10 He indicates that Clive Jackson was 11 arrested; turned himself in to Sarnia 12 Police. There will be a bail hearing 13 14:00, press release being prepared. 14 Meeting with Carl George; will tell his 15 people to stop lighting up the camp 16 sites. Continues to state that 17 Ipperwash Park, Matheson Drive, Pinery 18 Park and the land between Kettle Point 19 and Ipperwash Base are Native lands. 20 Native campers are in Ipperwash Park; 21 have been seen on the Base. Park to 22 close effective Labour Day." 23 Q: And that was a report from Staff 24 Sergeant Bouwman. He reported what he had been told by 25 Carl George?


1 A: Glenn George, sir. 2 Q: Glenn George? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Excuse me, Glenn George. 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Then on page 32 at 5:30 on August the 7 15th there's a call from a -- a Cindy Elder or there's a 8 reference to Cindy Elder? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And what is that about? 11 A: She represented an organization or a 12 company called, "Approaches." She called in regards to 13 Ipperwash. She, I believe, held herself out to be a 14 negotiator or mediation-type services. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: "And she indicated that Gordon Peters 17 was to send someone out to Kettle Point 18 due to the frustration. There were no 19 outstanding police issues and they'll 20 be meeting with the Federal reps 21 tonight." 22 And I'm not sure who the meeting is with 23 and I'm not sure who Gord Peters intended to send out to 24 Kettle Point. 25 Q: And the "no outstanding police


1 issues," do you know what that refers to? 2 A: I -- I'm not, I'm sorry. 3 Q: Okay. Then, on Wednesday, August the 4 16th at -- you received a telephone call from Staff 5 Sergeant Bouwman? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And you have a note. Can you tell us 8 what that note refers to? 9 A: "He called to advise me that the ERT 10 personnel has reported over night of a 11 bonfire next to Matheson Drive. A cooler 12 from the -- from campers had been stolen 13 over night. There had been erratic 14 driving at Matheson Drive, persons riding 15 on the roof of a vehicle. Bert Manning 16 advises that -- advised some of the 17 members of our ERT personnel that the Park 18 will belong to them after Labour Day." 19 Q: And what if any significance did that 20 hold for you; that statement? 21 A: Well, what the statement does is just 22 continues to affirm and reaffirm information that had 23 been flowing in for the last couple of weeks, 24 particularly since the Military Base incident with the 25 school bus and the Drill Hall, that there were intentions


1 to take over the Provincial Park. 2 Q: All right. Then, there's a note on 3 August the 17th, 1995 at 9:30, a telephone call from 4 Superintendent Parkin? 5 A: Yes. "Information from [I think 6 it's] Number 1 District 7 Headquarters. There had been 8 a meeting last night at 9 Kettle Point. People are 10 upset the lack of action by 11 the Government in removing 12 the people from CFB 13 Ipperwash. Bernard George 14 advised Tom Bressette that 15 Kettle Point will be blocking 16 the roadway on Highway 21. 17 Information from Miles 18 Bressette, Les Jewel to be 19 headed to Cross Village in 20 Michigan. The reason was 21 unknown." 22 Q: Yes? And then, you went to Forest 23 that -- after that? 24 A: Yes, at 9:45 I went to Forest. 25 Q: And what did you do in Forest?


1 A: I -- I was accompanied by Detective 2 Staff Sergeant Lickman. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: And it appears I made a number of 5 phone calls when I arrived. 6 Q: And the phone calls are -- among 7 others, there's one (1) with Inspector Linton where you 8 discuss the potential road blockade and then there's -- 9 something -- "Info from Tom Bressette"? 10 A: Oh, yes. 11 "At 10:40, phone call from Inspector 12 Linton. We discussed the potential 13 road blockade and there was information 14 from Tom Bressette to Sergeant Hogarth 15 -- " 16 Who is also one (1) of the supervisors at 17 Forest Detachment at that time, 18 "That the Kettle Point people had 19 decided not to blockade Highway 21." 20 Q: Then you had a conversation with 21 Superintendent Parkin? 22 A: Yes. "I updated him on the latest 23 information discussing the MNR issue of 24 ownership of the Provincial Park, the 25 direction if the Park was occupied.


1 Chief Superintendent Coles to call Ron 2 Baldwin personally and get written 3 direction of the MNR position." 4 Q: And what was that -- what does that 5 refer to? 6 A: Well, the issue of the injunction, 7 because there was some sense that the Ministry of Natural 8 Resources may have been -- some people in the Ministry of 9 Natural Resources taking the position that they felt they 10 had clear title and wouldn't -- either wouldn't require 11 an injunction or didn't feel they needed to produce the 12 documentations to demonstrate their title. 13 Q: So they disagreed with the position - 14 - some people disagreed with the position that the OPP 15 took with respect to getting an injunction? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And what -- Chief Superintendent 18 Coles was going to call Mr. Baldwin personally to discuss 19 this issue? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: Then there -- the note goes on to 22 speak of Staff Sergeant Lacroix, can you see that ? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 "To ascertain if he has any feedback 25 regarding the meeting a week last


1 Friday. Detective Staff Sergeant 2 Wright review the log of information to 3 establish a threat assessment on 4 Ipperwash Park." 5 Q: And the meeting last Friday, was that 6 the meeting you had with Mr. Beaubien? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: That -- in all likelihood, yes. 11 Q: And did you speak to -- who was going 12 to speak to Staff Sergeant Lacroix with respect to 13 feedback, you or Chief Superintendent Coles; I presume 14 you? 15 A: It's a presumption on my part that it 16 was probably myself. 17 Q: And did you have a discussion, that 18 you recall, with Staff Sergeant Lacroix with respect to 19 the meeting with Mr. Beaubien? 20 A: Well, I don't have any note of it, so 21 if I did call him, he probably didn't tell anything worth 22 noting. 23 Q: Okay. And then there's an entry: 24 "Call Ron Fox re: info obtained." 25 Is that -- have I read that correctly?


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I believe so. 4 Q: Is that -- is this part of -- still 5 part of your conversation with Chief Superintendent -- 6 oh, with Superintendent Parkin at -- excuse me. 7 A: Yes, it appears to be so, yes. 8 Q: And do you have any recollection 9 today what that note refers to? 10 A: I'm assuming it's the whole issue 11 here we've talked about, about the threat assessment on 12 Ipperwash Park. 13 Q: Okay. And then there's another 14 entry, 15 "Info from George Speck." 16 A: Yes, "Information from George Speck. 17 He had spoke with Glenn George on the 18 11th of August. Meeting past weekend 19 on the Base with warriors; talk about 20 closing from Highway 21 Provincial Park 21 and Pinery also --" 22 I'm sorry. 23 Q: "Also belong to --" 24 A: "Highway 21 Provincial Park and 25 Pinery also belong to Natives."


1 Q: And then you had a telephone call at 2 12:15 with Inspector Dale Linton. 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: And re: Ron Fox. 5 A: Yes. 6 "I will notify after lunch also advises 7 of call from Miles Bressette that the 8 event had fizzled. Also he forgot to 9 tell Linton to advise that event would 10 be to dump sand on road with dump 11 trucks and fell trees across Highway 12 21." 13 Q: And -- but nothing happened with 14 respect to -- there was no blockade of Highway 21? 15 A: No, there was not. 16 Q: And on the next page at page 34 at 17 13:45 you have a telephone call with Ron Fox? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: And can you tell us about that call? 20 A: Yes. 21 "He was updated on the latest 22 information on Ipperwash and he also 23 indicated that the outstanding land 24 claims -- or in regards to outstanding 25 land claims for Ipperwash there were


1 none." 2 And I've got in brackets (ONAS). 3 Q: And what does that refer to? 4 A: Ontario Native Secretariat. 5 Q: And -- but why did you put it in 6 brackets? That was the source of -- 7 A: I'm assuming that's his source of 8 information. 9 "And advised reference of roadblocks by 10 Kettle Point residents." 11 Q: Then the -- you updated 12 Superintendent Parkin with respect to Ron Fox and it 13 says: 14 "And Staff Sergeant Lacroix." 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: But we have had -- do you recall 17 anything about -- there's no note with respect to Staff 18 Sergeant Lacroix. 19 A: No. I -- I have no recollection of 20 making contact with him or what the discussion may have 21 been but it's clear from that particular note that I must 22 have made some connection with him. 23 Q: Okay. Then... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: Then on the next day, Friday, August 2 18th, you had a discussion with respect to a telephone 3 call at 9:25 from Staff Sergeant Wright? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 "Information that came through George 6 Speck. Constable Duff Bressette from 7 Kettle Point had indicated there are 8 still plans to block the highway. 9 And we had discussion about cancelling 10 the ERT deployment after September the 11 5th." 12 Q: And the ERT deployment was the 13 deployment of the ERT teams with respect to the 14 Provincial Park? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And after September 5th, it was your 17 understanding that the Park was going to close on 18 September the 4th? 19 A: Yes. It -- it closes at the end of 20 the Labour Day, yes. 21 Q: Then there's a note with respect to 22 Chief Superintendent Coles updated? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what's that about? 25 A: "He was updated in regards to the


1 potential blockade. The strategy will 2 be as always to negotiate, re-route the 3 traffic. The Ministry of 4 Transportation injunction, [I have a 5 question mark] 6 and Chief Superintendent to discuss 7 with Dale Elliott, the Ministry of 8 Natural Resources to lias with Dale 9 Elliott." 10 Q: Then there's a note "fax." 11 A: "Fax Chief Superintendent a copy of 12 letter Rosemary Ur." 13 Q: Do you know what that refers to? 14 A: It's obviously a letter in regards to 15 Ms. Ur. But off the top of my head I don't recall which 16 letter that is. 17 Q: We can't find it so. Did you receive 18 in this period a letter from Rosemary Ur or copies of a 19 letter from Rosemary Ur? 20 A: I don't recall getting letters 21 directly. But I would suspect that if Chief Coles or any 22 of the Detachment Commanders had received a copy that 23 they would have provided one to me. 24 Q: Then, could I take you to Book 2 Tab 25 49? It should be the next tab. This is a letter that --


1 an e-mail that I sent to My Friends by -- electronically 2 last week. It's an e-mail dated August the 18th, 1995 at 3 13:07. It's an e-mail from Deputy Commissioner John 4 Carson to Nancy Mansells -- Mansell, with a copy to Chris 5 Coles. 6 Is that -- do you recognize that e-mail, 7 sir? 8 A: Yes, that's my distribution. I 9 forwarded that to Nancy Mansell who is the Coordinator of 10 the issue sheets. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And you advised Ms. Mansell and Chief 15 Superintendent Coles that: 16 "Please be advised that Kettle and 17 Stony Point residents were preparing to 18 commence a blockade of Highway 21 in 19 Bosanquet Township on Thursday, August 20 17, 1995." 21 You go on to say: 22 "Discussions with the elected Chief Tom 23 Bressette prevented the blockade from 24 actually being carried out. 25 A Band meeting was held on August 16,


1 1995. The CFB Ipperwash issue was 2 causing much frustration due to the low 3 -- perceived slow pace of negotiations 4 and the ongoing problems associated to 5 the group who occupy the Base. 6 The blockade was to demonstrate to 7 government that the Native community is 8 dissatisfied with the progress to-date. 9 As council -- as a council, blockades 10 are acts of violence and are not 11 supported in any manner, although the 12 potential blockade was averted at this 13 time, the issues that caused the 14 frustration still remain and could 15 result in a blockade being carried out 16 in the future." 17 And firstly, have I read that correctly? 18 A: Yes, you have. 19 Q: And that -- the -- it was your 20 understanding that there was growing frustration with 21 respect to the slow pace of negotiations? 22 A: There -- there was a very high level 23 of frustration, in my view. And not only the fact that 24 there was slow negotiations with the Kettle Point Band, 25 but the apparent distress that the occupiers on the


1 Military Base may, in fact -- that situation was 2 aggravating; the -- the pace of -- of the negotiations, 3 that there was some feeling that, like, who do you 4 negotiate with? 5 The -- obviously the federal negotiator 6 recognized the Kettle Point Band, but the Stoney Pointers 7 felt they should be negotiated with. And -- and so it 8 was a back and forth, very -- I -- I sensed anyway, a 9 very tense time for everyone. 10 And I think, you know, the discussion 11 about potential blockades was trying to heighten the 12 awareness or heighten the frustration level that they 13 were experiencing at that time. 14 Q: Perhaps trying to get the 15 Government's attention with the -- the Government of 16 Canada's reten -- attention with respect to the 17 negotiations? 18 A: That's fair. 19 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 20 exhibit, it will be 419? 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-419, Your Honour. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-419. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-419: An email from John Carson to 25 N Na


1 Coles, Aug. 18/95 13:07 Re: 2 Potential blockade of Highway 3 No. 21 in Bosanquet Township 4 by Kettle and Stony Point 5 residents. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Then at 15:14 -- excuse me, at 14:09: 9 "You got a call from Staff Sergeant 10 Bouwman and he reports from Constable 11 Speck, possible blockade communication 12 issues with MNR Park staff addressed 13 [something] Park Superintendent"? 14 A: Yes, it's addressed by the Park 15 Superintendent. 16 Q: And what does that refer to? 17 A: I'm not 100 percent sure, but it may 18 have had something to do with our -- our officers who 19 were patrolling the Provincial Park just to -- I think 20 there was just some communication breakdown there that we 21 had to address, if -- if my memory serves me correctly. 22 There were some internal issues. 23 Q: Okay. Then, at 15:14 you had a 24 telephone call with Dale Linton? 25 A: Yes, I did.


1 Q: And... 2 A: The call was in regards to a 3 discussion that Dale had had with Chief Bressette. 4 "Council frustrated with the splinter 5 group occupying the facilities at the 6 Base. Will not continue to tolerate 7 radicals. Will blockade Highway 21 if 8 Chief unable to get action. Will 9 notify Ron Fox." 10 Q: And then on the next page, page 35, 11 you update the Chief Superintendent and then you call Ron 12 Fox at 15:50? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: "He was updated about the blockade 16 and 17 Inspector Fox will contact Mr. Jones or 18 Johnson, Ministry of Natural Resources 19 legal, ensure the process is in place 20 in regards to potential injunction." 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: And then at five o'clock, a call from 23 Nancy Mansell: 24 "Just updating the briefing note and 25 the blockade issues. Will follow up


1 further the following Monday." 2 Q: And you then, the next day, sent 3 Exhibit 419, the e-mail that we just marked, sent -- Book 4 2, Tab 49. 5 A: Well, this is the 18th. It appears I 6 sent -- 7 Q: Oh, there must be a page in my book, 8 the pages are a little bit -- it must have been out of 9 order. That was August 17th, at page 33 -- August -- oh, 10 it's August -- at 034, page 34, it's August 18th. 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Then on August 22nd, you had another 13 discussion with Chief Superintendent Coles about the 14 Park? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And what was that discussion about? 17 A: The discussion was about the Park and 18 questions is: Is this -- is there a land claim? 19 And the note is, "no". 20 "It was researched by Inspector Fox. 21 Pressure MNR legal for documentation 22 for file. Research the ownership 23 regards to West Ipperwash. Have 24 information on file. Report re: 25 potential criminal charges.


1 Maps, diagrams of Ipperwash, West 2 Ipperwash, the Park and the Military 3 Base." 4 Q: And what's that referring to? 5 A: This is basically trying to establish 6 some contingency planning for potential issues, whether 7 we're speaking of the Military Base, the -- the Park or 8 West Ipperwash, but in particular there was some desire 9 to have the Ministry of Natural Resources produce 10 ownership documentation of the Park. 11 Q: And at this point, they hadn't done 12 that? 13 A: They hadn't produced it, no. They -- 14 they felt they had clear title. 15 Q: And then on August the 24th, there's 16 a note with respect to a telephone call with Peter 17 Sturdy? 18 A: Correct. He indicated -- I got a 19 call from Mr. Sturdy at 10:00 that morning. 20 "He indicated documentation for 21 Ipperwash Park will be ready on Monday, 22 August the 27th. 23 File received from Forest regarding the 24 West Ipperwash civil suits." 25 Q: And what did that relate to?


1 A: I believe that, in all likelihood, 2 refers to the file that we looked at earlier this week, 3 of all the issues around West Ipperwash, that that was a 4 file that they had maintained there. So that was a copy 5 of the Detachment documentation. 6 Q: Okay. And then August the 25th you 7 had a call with Chief Superintendent Coles? 8 A: Yes and "He was updated regards to 9 the files, Ipperwash and the 10 Park. Maps had been received 11 and laminated et cetera." 12 Q: Then the next page is a page of notes 13 that refer -- it's page 37, Monday August 28th, '95 at 14 8:30. 15 A: All of that information should be -- 16 should have been redacted - that's irrelevant to this. 17 Q: Oh, this is all -- 18 A: It's my personal notes on other 19 issues. 20 Q: None of that refers to Ipperwash? 21 A: No, it does not. 22 A: Okay. Then on page 38? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: There's a note of a -- is this a 25 meeting with Chief Superintendent Coles, Superintendent


1 Parkin, Inspector Hutchins, and acting Sergeant Tex 2 Deane; is that what it says? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Is that Kenneth Dean? 5 A: It is, yes. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: That's the meeting that took place in 8 Chief Coles' office. That was on the Monday at 10:00 in 9 the morning. We attended there and reviewed possible 10 tactics in regards to Ipperwash, discussed several 11 alternatives, the capabilities that our ERT personnel 12 would have, the capabilities that our TRU team people 13 have. 14 The issues, if there were weapons 15 involved, what we would establish as command locations if 16 necessary, use of our mobile command unit, various plans 17 for West Ipperwash and Ipperwash Provincial Park. 18 And there was an agreement that I would 19 lead a planning session at the District Headquarters in 20 London. And I would assemble Staff Sergeant Wright, 21 Sergeant Korosec from the ERT team, in the number one (1) 22 district for -- with acting Sergeant Ken Deane who was 23 representing the TRU team and Sergeant Grant from the 24 training unit in London, and prepare plans for the 25 potential of an extended stand off.


1 Q: And this is in relation to the 2 concern about the occupation of Ipperwash Park? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And prepare for extended stand-off, 5 you thought, I take it that -- what does that refer to; 6 you thought you were going to be there a long time? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And then in our book there's pages 39 9 and 40, which, I believe, should come behind page 41 or 10 relate to page 41 because it appears to be a similar -- 11 the same conversation? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: It's -- it's notes I obviously made 15 on a sheet of paper that I transcribed into my notebook. 16 Q: So, pages 38 -- excuse me, pages 39 17 and 40 refer -- are notes that you took, or at least page 18 39 is, that went into your notebook at page 41? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And what about the note at page 40? 21 A: Again, it appears to be a similar 22 note. I'm not sure where that one originated from, but 23 it's a -- a number of resources that are being addressed. 24 It looks like it's notes from part of our 25 planning meeting.


1 Q: We'll come back to that for a moment. 2 We'll -- we'll deal first with your telephone 3 conversation on Tuesday, August the 29, 1995 with 4 Inspector -- it's Dave Gray? 5 A: Guy, I believe. 6 Q: Guy? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And Inspector Guy was with the Royal 9 Canadian Mounted Police in BC? 10 A: Yes, he was. 11 Q: And can you, using either of your set 12 of notes, tell us what this was about? 13 A: I'm just trying to find it here. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I found the sheets in the scratch 18 notes, as well. 19 Q: Yes. And this related to Gustafson 20 Lake; is that correct? 21 A: It is, yes. Yes, I called Inspector 22 Gray at the RCMP in British Columbia in regards to the 23 Native stand off at Gustafson Lake. We discussed the 24 similarities of the incident. Some of the issues they 25 were dealing with was jamming communications, the Natives


1 were the Shuswap Nation. 2 They felt there was clear title to the 3 ranch, and there was a question about Mohawk help. 4 Outside sources had been introduced, held 5 a search warrant for firearms. Negotiate to arrest only. 6 It talked about some of the special vehicles they had 7 used, exhausting all means. 8 Q: What's that refer to? 9 A: I'm sorry? 10 Q: Exhaust all means, what's that refer 11 to? 12 A: Well, I think we were talking about 13 things like technical support. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Dialogue, the fact there was fox 16 holes dug in that they were dealing with and some 17 strategic encampment and there was some discussion about 18 the terrain around high ground and 360 degree visibility 19 and that there was use of 308/7.62 (phonetic) millimetre 20 steel jacketed ammunition that would penetrate body 21 armour. 22 Q: And... 23 A: In fact, it would penetrate -- it 24 says "beast armour" (phonetic), and beast armour is 25 special armour used by tactical officers that has a


1 higher penetration or, I'm sorry, is able to withstand 2 higher velocity. 3 Q: And how did -- then there's another 4 page which doesn't appear to be part of the conversation 5 at page 42 with Detective -- with Inspector Dan Guy, or 6 does it? 7 A: I'm -- I'm sorry? 8 Q: The next page in this -- in our book 9 is... 10 A: In regards to Gerry Petrelli? 11 Q: No. It's reporters to beach or... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Perhaps while we're -- before you 16 find that, do you recall anything else in your 17 conversation with Inspector Dan Guy? 18 A: Only that he had just given me an 19 overview of the incident and -- and the challenges they 20 were facing there and the fact they had -- they were 21 dealing with gunfire and they had come under fire. And 22 the challenges they faced in trying to deal with it and 23 the terrain of -- of that particular location. 24 Q: And how did you come to call 25 Inspector Dan Guy?


1 A: Well, I was aware the incident was 2 underway, it was national news. And certainly in our 3 discussions with Chief Coles and others it wasn't hard to 4 be aware of it. And that ended up being a part of the 5 discussions if, you know, is there any similarities or 6 issues that we need to be aware of. 7 So, given things are the way they are 8 these days, it would certainly be easy to believe that 9 there could be communication or people moving back and 10 forth across the country that would have some intimate 11 knowledge. 12 And we wanted to take advantage of 13 whatever they were learning and if there was any special 14 lessons to be learned that we would be aware of what 15 their experience was in a similar incident. 16 Q: Okay. And then, the notes at page 40 17 and page 42 of Exhibit 410, they appear to be notes -- 18 there's not date on them, but can you just take a moment 19 and try to figure out where they should go? 20 A: Well -- 21 Q: And the next page, the one with Guy 22 Petrelli? 23 A: Well, number 40 is a sheet of paper 24 that I had stuffed in my binder here at some point when I 25 was in some meeting --


1 Q: Yes? 2 A: -- and quite frankly, I -- I'm 3 probably hard pressed to tell you which meeting it was. 4 Q: But it -- is it fair to say that it 5 refers to the telephones -- Superintendent Barkowski, B- 6 A-R-K-O-W-S-K-I, is that... 7 A: Yes, Borkowski, B-O-R, but... 8 Q: B-O-R? 9 A: He -- he was the commander of our 10 telecommunications unit. 11 Q: So, he was -- he was a technical 12 person that you would look to for -- 13 A: If we -- we needed, like, standard 14 phone installation, he -- he would be the one to direct 15 it. 16 Q: And "Trespass legal grounds to hold 17 outsiders." 18 Do you have any recollection of what that 19 refers to? 20 A: Not off the top of my head. 21 Q: "Stoney Point access rights or 22 agreement." 23 A: I'm not sure where I was going with 24 that either at the time. 25 Q: TSB.


1 A: That's Beresford. 2 Q: Hutchison? 3 A: Hutchison is -- was an inspector at 4 the time and he would have contacted our technical 5 support branch. Beresford was one of the installers. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. Perhaps, 7 Commissioner, we could just stop for a moment to take a 8 short break for the afternoon break? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 10 ten (10) minute break and then come back and finish. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 13 for ten (10) minutes. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 2:22 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 2:36 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed. Please be seated. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 21 we begin, I wanted to tell My Friends, I sent two (2) 22 documents to My Friends last night by e-mail. 23 One (1) of the documents that is called 24 "Carson Edition in regard to -- there'll be a new version 25 of that document distributed tomorrow, because the times


1 on it were wrong, incorrect, and the times have now been 2 doubled -- have been corrected. 3 And I will send out a -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- a new list tomorrow 6 so I don't want any of My Friends to spend any time on 7 the document. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: It sounds like it is 12 on. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Do you -- can you hear 14 me now. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, I don't think that 16 -- usually it sounds better than this, Commissioner. 17 Actually, it's the same problem that Deputy Carson had 18 because he sounded quite funny at the beginning too. 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Well, they fixed his 20 and now yours isn't working. Let us see if they can 21 solve it quickly. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps the system 23 decided I've talked too much this week. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Now before the break, Deputy Carson, 4 we were looking at the notes and you found the notes that 5 refer to -- that have the heading "Telephone - 6 Superintendent Warkowski (phonetic) which appears at page 7 40 there later -- later in your notes? 8 A: That's correct. It was a -- a sheet 9 of paper that's stuffed in between the pages. 10 Q: And as well, the sheet of notes that 11 appears at page 42 "Reporting to leader"? 12 A: Yes, that was a couple of pages back 13 in my original notes. 14 Q: And the reporting to leader note you 15 believe refers to the planning meeting on August the 16 29th? 17 A: Correct. I believe that's notes I 18 made to myself to prepare the team in a briefing, like a 19 -- the pre -- the briefing piece of the meeting as I led 20 the group through the planning process. 21 Q: Okay. And then there's a page at 22 page 43; it's a -- it's a document not previously 23 disclosed, and that -- those notes are notes that were 24 made by you at a seminar with respect to the Waco, Texas 25 matter?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And when was that seminar held, sir? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: It's -- if I could take you to page - 7 - the last page in Tab 3, it's page 47. This is a list - 8 - a document from your DayTimer, and on Wednesday, August 9 the 30 there's an entry, "OPC - Waco" -- 10 A: Debrief. 11 Q: Debrief? 12 A: That's -- that's the one. Yes, sir. 13 That's the notes related to that. 14 Q: And while we're at it could you 15 explain for everyone, particularly My Friends why you 16 have a -- in your notes there's -- you have your notes 17 and then your calendar, and your calendar has some notes 18 simply as to, when you look through them, you start at 19 page 44 in exhibit 410. 20 It simply refers to if you're in Forest 21 District Headquarters, et cetera; what did you use the 22 DayTimer for? 23 A: Well, the DayTimer is just used to 24 demonstrate where I was, or appointments on various days 25 and various expenses I incurred, et cetera, like that I


1 would -- that I would use on a day-to-day basis. 2 Q: Okay. Let's go to Tab 4, and at page 3 49 of Exhibit 410 you had had a meeting on August the 4 29th, 1995 in the morning. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And could you tell us what that 7 meeting was about and who attended it? 8 A: Yes. The meeting was at 9 approximately nine o'clock in the morning on Tuesday the 10 29th, at the district headquarters boardroom in London. 11 This is a result of the meeting I had the 12 day previous with Chief Superintendent Coles at the 13 division office in regards to contingency planning in 14 preparation for a potential occupation at CFB -- oh, I'm 15 sorry, at Ipperwash Provincial Park. 16 Q: And that's -- so the meeting at ten 17 o'clock on August the 28th that we spoke about -- 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: -- before the break, yes. 20 A: Correct. At that meeting I had 21 Detective Staff Sergeant Wright, Sergeant Grant from the 22 training unit, Constable Deane who was Acting Sergeant at 23 the time, representing the tactical operations, and 24 Sergeant Koracek from the Chatham area who was one (1) of 25 the ERT supervisors.


1 That meeting was to literally brainstorm 2 the various options and scenarios that could develop in 3 regards to the Ipperwash Provincial Park and to develop a 4 strategy for planning to deal with that particular 5 eventuality. 6 So what you'll see here is -- is 7 brainstorming various scenarios, potential of a takeover 8 of Ipperwash, potentially after Labour Day; the roles of 9 the various teams would it be ERT, TRU, negotiators, et 10 cetera. 11 Develop an org. chart of assignments; set 12 up a meeting for -- on Friday a.m. with the various team 13 leaders that would be required to respond in -- in such 14 an incident; get the mobile command trailer from general 15 headquarters moved to London. 16 That was going to occur on Thursday; have 17 extra phone lines installed in Forest; three (3) extra 18 lines by the telecommunication branch, and that's where 19 Inspector Borkowski comes into it, so -- 20 Q: And the notes that appear at pages 40 21 and 42 are notes that you believe deal with either this 22 meeting or September 1st? 23 A: Yes, I believe it would be probably 24 this meeting here. 25 Q: And the reference on page 40 to "TRU,


1 Pinery, two (2) teams?" and this, the final plan had one 2 (1) TRU team; is that correct? 3 A: Yeah, correct. It'd be one (1) 4 initial team on standby and as -- depending on the 5 situation, there would be a decision made as to the 6 necessity for additional assistance or not. 7 Q: Then the next note on page 40, it 8 says -- I can't read the first word on the left-hand 9 side. 10 A: Which page are speaking? 11 Q: Page 40. It's not -- it's the 12 handwritten note... 13 A: "TRU" then "marine". 14 Q: Oh, the marine. That meant the -- a 15 boat? 16 A: Yes, we had units deployed in Forest, 17 Kincardine and Sombra that would be readily available to 18 us. 19 Q: Okay. Then "Bob Martin"? 20 A: Correct. Bob Martin is one (1) of 21 our crisis negotiators and Brad Seltzer is one (1) of our 22 Sergeant negotiator team leaders. 23 Q: And then there's a reference to 24 "three (3) lines"? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And then if you go to page 42, these 2 are more notes that, 3 "Reporting to leader, that became part 4 of the -- the plan when we get to it." 5 That's a note -- 6 A: Yes, I believe that was my 7 preparation for the meeting. 8 Q: "Voice concerns." You wanted people 9 -- these were matters you wanted to cover off with the 10 people at your meeting? 11 A: Yeah, as -- as the meeting would 12 commence, I -- I would basically establish the ground 13 rules and -- and the direction for the planning session. 14 And what -- what that means there, "voice concerns" is if 15 any of the individuals, the supervisors involved, had 16 wanted to provide input or had a differing opinion, that 17 I expected them to voice their concerns. 18 Q: And then ref -- then the next line, 19 "reference to Simon"? 20 A: Refusal. 21 Q: Refusal. And you've got three (3) 22 arrows on the right-hand side. What's that -- what do 23 they refer to? 24 A: There was discussion about, given the 25 severity of the potential situation, would -- would we


1 face officers who would refuse to report. So it was 2 brainstorming that potential eventuality. 3 Q: And then there's a note -- the next 4 note: 5 "Cooperate right people, right job." 6 A: Yes. I wanted to make that I task 7 the supervisors to assign the best people to do the job. 8 Q: Then: 9 "Note. BC influence." 10 What's that refer to. 11 A: Just to make sure that they were well 12 aware of the situation that occurred in British Columbia 13 and to provide some information as I had received from my 14 contact in British Columbia. 15 Q: And then: 16 "West Ipperwash Beach versus Park." 17 I take it W Ipperwash Beach means West 18 Ipperwash Beach? 19 A: Yes, sir. Yes. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: That's just to discuss the issues 22 there. Again, just to make sure that everyone who was 23 participating this understood the circumstances that 24 differentiate the issue at Ipperwash Park versus the 25 civil issues at West Ipperwash.


1 Q: And what was -- in a nutshell, what - 2 - do you recall what you were referring to with this 3 note, the differences? 4 A: Well, the difference being, you know, 5 rather simply being that the -- the issue in West 6 Ipperwash was a civil dispute between the elected Band at 7 -- at Kettle Point and the cottage owners over surrender 8 of land years ago, and the issue of the potential 9 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park was an illegal 10 occupation. 11 So they understood the legalities and the 12 differences and legalities between the two ( 2) 13 situations. 14 Q: And the medical -- then: 15 "Land claim not issue legally." 16 Have I read that correctly? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And is that what you're just 19 referring to? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Then: 22 "Medical plans - air ambulance." 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: What's that refer to? 25 A: Just to be mindful of medical


1 support, what's available in the area and being aware of 2 how we -- we have the authority to request air ambulance 3 in certain circumstances. Just to make sure that 4 everyone understood the procedures. 5 Q: Then the next line. 6 "Comms plan." 7 Is that communications plan? 8 A: That's correct. And that's -- 9 communications plans there re -- refers to communications 10 as in radio communications. And it says: 11 "Trailer versus no trailer." 12 If we had the -- the mobile command 13 trailer our of our general headquarters location, it's a 14 forty-five (45) foot trailer, that's equipped with a 15 mobile com centre as part of its setup. 16 So it's just how you manage the 17 communications. Whether you have that equipment readily 18 available or not. 19 Q: Then: 20 "Logistics/finance." 21 A: Yes. Just -- what we would need and 22 how are we going to pay for it. 23 Q: How you're you going to pay for it? 24 Then the next entry is: 25 "Armoured V-E-H's."


1 I take it that's vehicles? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And what does that -- what's that 4 reference about? 5 A: Just so we have some discussion on 6 armoured vehicle and -- and availability and how you 7 would access such equipment. 8 Q: And, "Helicopter -- 9 A: Landing site. 10 Q: And that's with respect to a 11 helicopter? 12 A: Yes. The OPP has two (2) helicopters 13 and just to be sure that we had a -- had an appropriate 14 site for the helicopters to land if we required the 15 service. 16 Q: Okay. Then if we could go back to 17 your notes on page 49, on August the 29th at 16:00, you 18 travelled to Forest with Staff Sergeant Wright? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And then there's a reference -- what 21 were you doing in Forest and the surrounding area? 22 A: I was in the Ipperwash area. I met 23 with Dr. Gibbs who lives in the Ipperwash area. I was 24 attempting to arrange to install a portable radio tower 25 on his property if at all possible to enhance our


1 communication ability. 2 We had some challenges with a radio 3 penetration in the Ipperwash area because of the 4 geography and the sand dunes. And we wanted to set up a 5 -- a portable radio tower that would fulfill those needs. 6 Q: And did you set up a -- excuse me, 7 did you set up a portable radio tower at that location? 8 A: No, it never occurred. In fact, a 9 portable radio tower was set up at another site that was 10 a better location. 11 Q: And, perhaps while we're at this, if 12 I can find it... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: I wanted to ask you -- I put before 17 you on the desk a coloured chart; it's entitled, 18 "Ipperwash Police Radio Coverage." And the chart that's 19 on the screen now is, as I under -- it is the chart that 20 you have in front of you and I've got a few other charts 21 that -- I'll just pull up... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And using the last two (2) it might


1 be easier to explain the communications. 2 I appreciate that you are not a 3 communications expert, Deputy Commissioner Carson, but I 4 think it would be helpful if you could outline to us, to 5 the extent that you can, how the communications work, 6 because we get to later on, the period of September the 7 4th to September 6th, the Chatham Comm. Centre, the 8 London Comm. Centre. And perhaps you could simply help 9 us understand better how the system works. 10 A: Okay. Where would you like me to 11 start? 12 Q: This is a map of tower locations and 13 range and perhaps you could just -- Ipperwash Beach is 14 shown on -- with the large arrow -- 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: -- and the circles are meant to... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Show the range of the towers, as I 21 understand it? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: So that the brown line at the very -- 24 the brown circle at the very top refers to the tower 102 25 at West McGillvray, is that correct?


1 A: That's correct. That's in this 2 general area here. 3 Q: Then the blue -- this tower here that 4 is dark blue is Tower 4 based in London; is that correct? 5 A: That's correct 6 Q: And so the range of the tower is the 7 range of the circle? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: Then the tower that is here, it's 10 purple on there, but I think it may be -- it is purple; 11 that is Tower 1 -- Tower 204 from West Lorne; is that 12 correct? 13 A: In that general vicinity, yes. 14 Q: And then, the red tower is Tower 1 in 15 Essex? It's -- actually, it's -- 16 A: No -- 17 Q: It's -- 18 A: But we're not in Essex here, 19 Middlesex. 20 Q: Middle -- and then the yellow one is 21 Wyoming? 22 A: Yellow is Wyoming, that's right. 23 Q: And so, these towers -- the 24 communications from the towers overlap each other? 25 A: To some degree, yes.


1 Q: So what happens if you're in -- the 2 easiest one is probably West McGillivray -- 3 A: Okay, if I could -- if I could take 4 it back to a little more basic? 5 Q: Sure? 6 A: Just to -- to help people along here. 7 First of all, there's a -- at -- at this point in time, 8 there's a communications centre in London and there's one 9 in Chatham. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: The -- the Chatham Comm. Centre 12 dispatches, generally speaking, for Essex, Kent, and 13 Lambton County. 14 The one in London dispatches for 15 Middlesex, Elgin, and Oxford County. 16 So, if you start with the London one for 17 example, when you dispatch the -- the area that is 18 demonstrated in the blue, the circle, that -- that is the 19 coverage for the most part for the Middlesex -- or -- and 20 part of Elgin. 21 And you see the brown one here to the 22 lower right, that's for the Elmer, Tillsonburg area, and 23 up as far as Woodstock. 24 And then you have the upper one from West 25 -- West McGillvray that -- that covers up from --


1 basically from Pine Area over to the Exeter area, 2 generally speaking. 3 So when -- when a car is in that area, the 4 car will be receiving its information from that 5 particular tower site the circle is. 6 Now, the Comm. centre has some control 7 over which tower the cars are operating off of. So for 8 instance, if you're talking to a car from London to say 9 West Lorne or in the area closer to Chatham, that -- the 10 Comm. centre in London is an independent Comm. centre of 11 the one in Chatham, and the cars in Chatham would not 12 hear the London Comm. centre. 13 So, each Tri-county area are independent 14 radio systems for the most part. Now, there is an 15 ability for the cars to log onto the next area, but 16 generally speaking when a car goes out on patrol, they 17 would log into their district. 18 So they're either on the London district, 19 or they're on the Chatham district. 20 So using that same theory, in the Chatham 21 area you have for the most part, three major tower sites 22 that cover each county. 23 Now, the -- the difficulty comes here 24 which makes this diagram complex and difficult is that up 25 in the Ipperwash, Pinery, Grand Bend area, it's on the


1 fringe of everything. 2 So what had to happen is, on the West 3 McGillvray tower, we had to put additional channels that 4 would allow the Chatham Comm. Centre to broadcast into 5 the Grand Bend, Pinery area in order to get that 6 coverage. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: So, as you can see some of those 9 circles like the brown one and yellow one there, and they 10 -- and it's the Kettle Point area, they barely -- they 11 barely meet that area. 12 So that's -- that's why we had to put 13 extra tower channels in place to get the coverage. 14 Q: And by -- perhaps you could -- if you 15 put extra channels in, does that somehow increase the 16 power of the tower? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No? 19 A: No. It's just frequencies. 20 Q: The frequency; more frequencies? 21 A: So -- so -- but on each tower, what's 22 important to know is each tower has three channels. Two 23 (2) channels are automatic channels and one (1) channel 24 is what you call a -- a synflex channel. 25 So, when an officer goes on patrol,


1 generally speaking they will log into one (1) of the 2 automatic channels as directed, or as controlled, by the 3 communications centre. 4 And the -- the communications centre will 5 -- when -- when they -- when they wish to talk, would 6 press a button in the cruiser which would provide a 7 signal into the Comm. Centre. 8 Then the Comm. centre will open the 9 channel up for that officer to speak. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: So now they have two (2) channels 12 available to do that on any given tower, and they have a 13 third channel on any tower that allows them to use the 14 synflex channel which is simply pick up the handset and 15 speak, and it's an open channel. 16 But the majority of the operations are 17 done on the automatic channels, controlled by the 18 communications centre. 19 Now, with -- if I could just take it a 20 little farther, on the automatic channels that are 21 available to the officers, the Comm. Centre had the 22 ability to put them in what we call a total access 23 channel on -- on one (1) special channel. 24 So one (1) of those one (1) automatic 25 channels. So, say if you had ten (10) cars that were


1 operating on a special incident, you could assign them to 2 this total access channel, that they could pick up the 3 handset and speak freely right across that automatic 4 channel. 5 Q: And would that mean that everyone on 6 that same channel would hear their communications? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And on the automatic channel were 9 there -- where the channel has to be opened up, one (1) 10 car would not hear the communications of another car? 11 A: Only if the Comm. Centre operator 12 decided to open up the channel to all the cars and there 13 are certain calls for service, say for instance, an armed 14 robbery where you want all the cars in the area to be 15 aware. 16 You would open up the channels so that all 17 the cars would hear, but you would dispatch specific 18 units. 19 Now, there's other calls that you would 20 describe as more minor in nature, where the car would be 21 called but only the officer involved would hear that 22 transmission. 23 Q: I'm going to overlay another map 24 here. Maybe the final one, let me just try the one. 25 This one simply adds two (2) more towers,


1 the tower in Essex and I guess Chatham and you've 2 described that. 3 The last -- 4 A: Now see, the ones you just displayed 5 where the towers that have access from the Chatham Comm. 6 centre. 7 Q: Oh, I see. The ones down in the 8 lower -- 9 A: Right. The Chatham Comm. Centre 10 could activate any of those towers. 11 Q: These? 12 A: Any of those five (5) towers that you 13 see there that -- so that the centre of each of those 14 rings would have a tower site. 15 Q: And they could be controlled by the 16 Chatham -- 17 A: Comm. centre. 18 Q: Yeah. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And this diagram, which is the final 23 diagram and which appears on this coloured piece of 24 paper. In red, it shows the Chatham Comm. Centre area 25 and in blue, the London Comm. Centre area?


1 A: Yes, that's the primary coverage, 2 yes. 3 Q: And as we -- as you indicated before 4 and as one can see on this picture, when you get this 5 area, Ipperwash, Kettle Point, Forest area, you're right 6 at the edge of the limits of both of them? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Much like the cell phone coverage 9 around here. 10 A: It's an experience. 11 Q: And so that in order to make the 12 communications work better, one has to add channels to 13 either one or the other or both of the communications 14 centres? 15 A: Well, we added channels to the West 16 McGillvray -- this tower here, there was channels put on 17 it to broadcast back into the Kettle Point area here. 18 But that was done when we originally built 19 the system. It's just a -- it -- that particular tower 20 has channels that work either from the Chatham Comm. 21 Centre or the London Comm. Centre. It can work from 22 either side, because it has enough channels to 23 accommodate that. 24 But additional channels don't give you 25 additional penetration of signal.


1 Q: Now, we'll see in the notes as we 2 start through the notes, references to repeaters. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Can you tell us what a repeater is? 5 A: Oh, most patrol cars have a standard 6 radio in the vehicle that allows it -- an officer to pick 7 up the handset and transmit to one of these towers. 8 Then, when the officer exits the vehicle, 9 he activates a repeater which is, for lack of a better 10 term, a piggy back radio on the main radio that transmits 11 on a -- an additional antenna from the car out to a 12 portable that he carries on his hip. 13 So what it does, is it takes the signal 14 that comes into the car, goes through a second radio, 15 then is transmitted out on another radio to the portable 16 that the officer carries. 17 Q: So that's simply the -- the signal 18 comes into the radio, it's in the car; if the officer's 19 outside the car, he -- it sends it forward to his radio 20 that he's carrying with him or her? 21 A: Correct, because you can appreciate 22 that the cruiser itself would have a larger antenna that 23 would allow the signal to be received from a greater 24 distance then the portable radio that they carry on their 25 hip has, like, a two (2) or three (3) inch antenna that


1 wouldn't have the capability of -- of reaching the tower. 2 Q: And the portable tower that you were 3 thinking of installing on -- that's referred to on August 4 29th that was installed somewhere else, what was the 5 purpose of that tower? 6 A: What that does is, it -- it picks up 7 the signal as any police car will. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: And what it does, it -- it relays the 10 signal on. So, it just -- what it does, it's basically a 11 cruiser radio with much more height and more power. 12 Q: So that it would help improve the 13 communications with the cruisers in the vicinity of the 14 tower? 15 A: Yes. For -- for lack of a better 16 term, it takes the same signal and it just increases the 17 penetration of the signal. 18 Q: It's a boost -- it boosts the signal? 19 A: That's exactly what it does. 20 Q: Thank you. Now, perhaps we could 21 mark -- this diagram was actually created by the Ontario 22 Provincial Police? 23 A: I -- I believe so, yes. It's from 24 our telecommunications people. 25 Q: And, I'm instructed that this is the


1 way the system worked back in 1995? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And I suggest -- I would ask that it 4 be marked as the next exhibit. It would be Exhibit... 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-420. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-420. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-420: Ipperwash: Map of Police 9 Radio Coverage Sept/95, 10 Chatham and London 11 Communications " Tower 12 Locations and Range". 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Now, is there anything else you would 16 like to add that might help us understand the 17 communications as -- before we move on? 18 A: No, it's confusing enough. 19 Q: And let me ask this question. The -- 20 what is the policy with respect to recording calls made 21 by officers from cruisers? 22 A: All -- all transmissions from police 23 vehicles through the Communications Centre are captured 24 at that time on logger tape. Now we do it through 25 digital capture, just -- just different technology with


1 the same -- same theory. 2 So, all transmissions from the call that 3 actually -- when the signal actually hits one (1) of 4 those towers and can be overheard in the Comm. Centre 5 will all be recorded twenty-four (24) hours a day seven 6 (7) days a week, three sixty-five (365) a year. 7 That was the standard when this system was 8 built in the mid to late '80's and continues our policy 9 today. 10 Q: And just as an example, if a car was 11 in Forest parked outside of Kimball Hall and another car 12 was in -- at the plaza at Kettle Point, the mall there, 13 the transmission between those two (2) cars would go 14 through one (1) of the towers and then be recorded 15 automatically by the tower? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And with respect to the cruisers, was 18 there any time when the -- was there ability by the 19 operator of a cruiser to turn off the recording system on 20 the tower? 21 A: The recording -- there is -- there is 22 no ability to impact the recording capabilities from -- 23 from the car. 24 Q: And although I'm stepping a little 25 bit ahead, but the -- but dealing with communications


1 when the mobile -- mobile command unit was moved into 2 Forest -- 3 A: Yes? 4 Q: -- as it was, the telephones or the - 5 - all of the telephones, I believe, in the mobile command 6 centre were recorded; is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And can you tell us how that system 9 worked? 10 A: Well, the mobile command unit is set 11 up as technically a mini communication centre. All of 12 our communication centres, the telephone lines that come 13 into the Comm. Centre where the public can access for 14 calls for service, whether it's a 9-1-1 call or -- or any 15 other call that's dispatched, all lines to the dispatcher 16 positions are all recorded through a multi-track tape 17 recorder. 18 All of our operator positions, whether 19 it's a call taker or a dispatcher are recorded whether 20 it's voice communications over radio or whether it's 21 voice communications over telephone lines. 22 Now that is specific to our calls for 23 service business. Now all our -- any other call whether 24 administrative in nature, we do not, we have never done 25 and we do not to this day, record at all.


1 So for example, the sergeant supervisor or 2 the staff sergeant supervisor in a communication centre, 3 in their administrative offices, there is no recording of 4 their telephone lines. It's only the 9-1-1 calls that 5 come in where there are emergency calls for service that 6 are actually recorded. 7 So this mobile trailer, it has the 8 recording capability the same as a regular Comm. Centre. 9 Now in this particular case, all the lines -- the setup 10 of the trailer apparently, was that all the lines were 11 running in through the multi track recorder as the voice 12 communications for the radio was. That was the initial 13 setup. 14 Q: And so that back in 19 -- and I'm 15 talking about 1995 now, back in 1995 a call into -- a 9- 16 1-1 call or a call for service was recorded -- the 17 dispatcher's call was recorded but other calls weren't? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And at -- and the mobile command unit 20 that was in place in September 1995, the calls into and 21 out of the mobile command unit were recorded? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: The same -- the same system? 24 A: The same theory. But if somebody -- 25 just so it's clear -- if somebody called in on an


1 administrative call and that call was given to a 2 dispatcher, say it was a personal call, it is still 3 recorded because the position is recorded. 4 Q: Yeah, what -- what -- the person 5 who's sitting at the dispatcher's seat, that telephone, 6 no matter what the call is; the telephone, it's recorded? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And the person -- the operator 9 sitting in the seat and a 9-1-1 call is telephoned -- no 10 matter what call comes in whether it's a -- a 9-1-1 call 11 or somebody's been rerouted to them, the call is 12 automatically recorded? 13 A: Correct. The only way they could 14 make a call from -- from that building would be to get up 15 from their position and go to an administrative to use an 16 unrecorded phone. 17 Q: And all of the calls into and out of 18 the mobile command unit from September 4th to September 19 7th were -- had the same system, they were all recorded? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Now the -- while we're at it, the 22 mobile command unit as we'll find was set up at the 23 Forest Detachment -- the -- there were telephone -- extra 24 telephone lines run from the mobile command unit in 25 through the Forest Detachment, I take it those were the


1 lines that were inside the -- just to set up the mobile 2 command unit? 3 A: Well, the wiring for the trailer -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- came through the physical building 6 at Forest. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Now the lines in the trailer were not 9 the same telephone lines that were accessible in the 10 Detachment building itself. They were distinctly apart. 11 Q: And the lines in the Detachment -- 12 how many of the lines in the Detachment were recorded; if 13 any? 14 A: None. They never had been recorded 15 and we do not record -- those -- that building is -- is 16 strictly an administrative centre. It is not a dispatch 17 centre. Therefore none of the lines are ever recorded. 18 Q: And that was the case back in 1995? 19 A: That's our policy today, same thing. 20 Q: Same thing? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Now if we could go back to page 49, 25 and your -- the note at 16:00:


1 "10-8 to Forest with Sergeant Wright" 2 And we stopped actually with respect to 3 the portable power, and you've given us the explanation 4 which I would thank you for. 5 But you then, that afternoon, went to 6 visit Ipperwash Park? 7 A: I did, yes. 8 Q: And the camp site of -- the camp -- 9 the campers? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And I take it both you and Detective 12 Sergeant Wright were in plain clothes? 13 A: I think we were very casual that day, 14 yes. 15 Q: And then, can you tell me what the 16 balance of these notes are? 17 A: It's notes from the meeting -- or, 18 from going into the park. We visited the park, the 19 campsite in particular. 20 We needed to arrange for an additional 21 Officer to work with Constable Streefkirk, and we were 22 looking for another male Officer; Streefkirk is a female 23 Officer -- 24 Q: Okay? 25 A: -- trying to provide the appearance


1 of a -- a couple. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: And then we went to the Grand Bend 4 Detachment, and then back to the Forest Detachment. 5 Q: And on -- when did you contact Mr. 6 Peter Harding of the St. John's Ambulance? There's a 7 note -- 8 A: On Sunday the 3rd. 9 Q: -- on page 51? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Had you spoken to -- that's at 21:05, 12 is that the reference you're making? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Was that the first time you spoke to 15 him about the use of the St. John's Ambulance trailer? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And that -- I will come back to that 18 at the appropriate time. 19 Now, on September 1st, you had a planning 20 meeting? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that was at the District 23 Headquarters? 24 A: Yes, it was. 25 Q: And do you have any notes other than


1 the two (2) pages we've looked at about that meeting that 2 I've somehow missed -- overlooked? 3 A: No, the -- the notes on that -- in -- 4 in my notes here I have just that there's a planning 5 meeting, District Headquarters, Project Maple, and the 6 minutes were taken down by one (1) of our administrative 7 personnel. 8 Q: So, if I could take you to Inquiry 9 Document 3000574, and it may appear elsewhere but that's 10 the one I've got, and if I could take you to Book 1, tab 11 11? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And these are the minutes that you 17 referred to? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And the minutes -- these minutes were 20 taken by someone who was attending the meeting? 21 A: By Janet Vandenburg. 22 Q: Janet Vandenburg. And at this point, 23 the Project Maple name had not been assigned to the 24 project, had it? 25 A: No.


1 Q: And it was assigned later in the 2 week, and can you tell us why the name Project Maple was 3 chosen? 4 A: Actually, it was a pretty simple 5 concept. It had to do with all the maple trees in the 6 area. 7 Q: That's the -- the source of the name 8 Project Maple? 9 A: Yes, that was -- exactly. 10 Q: Okay? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, if I 12 could ask that these minutes be marked as the next 13 exhibit. It would be exhibit 4 -- 14 THE REGISTRAR: 21. 421, Your Honour. 15 THE COMMISSIONER: Exhibit 421. Just a 16 minute, it looks like -- no. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-421: Document Number 3000574, 19 Sept.01/95 09:00 a.m. OPP 20 Meeting, No.2 DHQ London. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: My Friend reminds me that Project 24 Maple is actually on your notes, in your notebook at zero 25 -- page 049?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: Now, I'm not going to go into these 3 minutes for the moment, but I would like to simply, for 4 the benefit of My Friends, just move forward in the last 5 few minutes. 6 At page 54 of Exhibit 410 there are what 7 appear to be notes in a different style of notebook. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And a better example is at page 55. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there are a number of those notes 12 and I -- I understand that during the period September 13 4th to September 6th and September 7th, you had -- you 14 used a different note taking system. 15 You had a -- in addition to the scribe 16 which we will come back to on Monday, you also had your 17 own notebook? 18 A: Well, the way that it works -- 19 Q: A scratch pad. 20 A: Yes, I had -- there was scratch pads 21 available to me. Generally speaking, any notes in 22 reference to my involvement was captured by the scribe. 23 There were a few instances where the scribe may not have 24 been readily available or when I was making phone calls 25 and I wanted to capture certain points, I would, for lack


1 of a better term, scribble it down on a -- a steno pad. 2 Q: And the steno -- and the -- so that 3 everyone understands the documents at the page 54 to 70, 4 I believe, are from one (1) or two (2) books you used as 5 scratch pads? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And, Commissioner, it's just about 8 3:30. I suggest that we stop there with -- Deputy 9 Commissioner Carson will be back on the stand at 10:30 on 10 Monday morning. 11 12 (WITNESS RETIRES) 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 Thank you very much. We will adjourn now until Monday 16 morning at half past 10:00. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 18 Deputy Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much. 21 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 23 adjourned until Monday, May 16th at 10:30. 24 25 --- Upon adjourning at 3:25 p.m.


1 2 3 4 Certified Correct, 5 6 7 8 __________________ 9 Carol Geehan 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25