1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 11th, 2006 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) (np) Family Group 15 Amanda Rogers ) Student-at-law 16 17 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 18 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 19 Kevin Scullion ) 20 21 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 22 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 23 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 Opening Comments 12 5 6 GEORGE EDWARD HEBBLETHWAITE, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 21 8 9 10 11 12 13 Certificate of Transcript 298 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1476 Document Number 2005591. Handwritten 4 notebook entries of George Hebblethwaite. 5 August 1-10, 14-28, August 30 to 6 September 05, 1995. 55 7 P-1477 Document Number 2000757. ERT Operational 8 Report (Sgt Hebblethwaite, Cst Stirling) 9 August 04, 1995. 62 10 P-1478 Document Number 2000760. ERT Operational 11 Report (Stirling, Hebblethwaite) August 12 05, 1995. 62 13 P-1479 Document Number 2000764. ERT Operational 14 Report (Hebblethwaite, Stirling) August 15 06, 1995. 63 16 P-1480 Document Number 2000787. ERT Operational 17 Report (Hebblethwaite, Stirling) 18 August 06, 1995. 64 19 P-1481 Document Number 2005416. Handwritten 20 notebook entries of George Hebblethwaite, 21 September 05-07, 1995. 78 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1482 Transcript of Region 01, George 4 Hebblethwaite - Ed Robertson, 5 September 06, 1995, 14:39 hrs, Mobile 6 Command Unit, Logger tape number 3, 7 Track 1, Disc 2 of 3. 101 8 P-1483 Hebblethwaite audio disc. 101 9 P-1484 Document Number 1002712. Handwritten 10 notebook entries of George Hebblethwaite, 11 September 07, 1995. 102 12 P-1485 Document Number 1004692. Small (8x11) 13 topographical map of Ipperwash Provincial 14 Park marked by and labelled G. 15 Hebblethwaite (undated) 152 16 P-1486 Aerial digital map of sandy parking lot 17 area. 201 18 P-1487 Document Number 2005602. Handwritten 19 notes entries of George Hebblethwaite, 20 September 08-29, 1995 267 21 P-1488 Document Number 1002142. OPP Anticipated 22 evidence of George Hebblethwaite, 23 September 08, 1995. 270 24 25


1 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1489 Document Number 1000324. OPP taped 4 interview of George Hebblethwaite, 5 September 08, 1995 270 6 P-1490 Document Number 3000845. R. v. Nicholas 7 Abraham Cottrelle - George Hebblethwaite's 8 evidence (pages 52 to 110 of transcript) 9 March 24, 1997. 272 10 P-1491 Document Number 1046886. Proceedings at 11 Trial - R. v. Kenneth Deane - Examination- 12 in-Chief, Cross-Examination, and Re- 13 Examination of George Hebblethwaite (pages 14 104-167 or transcript) April 09, 1997. 273 15 P-1492 Document Number 1004975. R. v. Warren 16 Anthony George and David Abraham George 17 Proceedings at Trial, Examination-in-Chief, 18 Cross-Examination and Re-Examination of 19 George Hebblethwaite (pages 199-249 of 20 transcript) October 02, 1997. 274 21 P-1493 Document Number 1004684. Sgt. George 22 Hebblethwaite: Questions and Answers from 23 SIU Interview, April 01, 1998. 275 24 25


1 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1494 Photograph of T-shirt marked "Project 4 Maple '95-ERT". 284 5 P-1495 Photograph of T-shirt marked, "Project 6 Maple '95, ERT" (front). 285 7 P-1496 Photograph of T-shirt marked "Project 8 Maple'95, ERT" (back). 286 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:05 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin there 13 are two (2) things. I'm going to raise an issue first 14 thing this morning, but we are then going to take a short 15 break and start at 9:30. 16 And so after we're done this we'll take a 17 short break and start at 9:30. 18 Commissioner, I wish to draw to your 19 attention and to the attention of the parties some 20 information that Ms. Vella and I learned at the end of 21 the day yesterday. 22 On April 21st after the examination of 23 Sergeant Rob Graham who advised us that he had a T-shirt 24 which he disposed of in January of this year I asked Mr. 25 Roland to canvass his clients to determine whether any of


1 his clients had a T-shirt. In making my request I had in 2 mind the T-shirt, a photograph of which has been marked 3 as Exhibit P-458. 4 Mr. Roland did canvass his clients, some 5 of whom disclosed to him that some did have T-shirts or 6 had T-shirts but not the T-shirt in Exhibit P-458. Mr. 7 Roland disclosed the existence of the T-shirt to us last 8 night and provided us with an opportunity to examine the 9 T-shirt and its logo. 10 We are presently having the photograph -- 11 having photographs taken of the T-shirt and the logo 12 which will -- we will distribute electronically to the 13 parties later today. 14 We wish to acknowledge Mr. Roland and his 15 team for their integrity and professionalism in carrying 16 out their duties and responsibilities in bringing to our 17 attention the T-shirt. We also wish to acknowledge the 18 actions of Mr. Roland's clients, members of the Ontario 19 Provincial Police, and the Ontario Provincial Police 20 Association who when asked by Mr. Roland disclosed the 21 existence of the T-shirt. 22 The T-shirt is black. The logo on the T- 23 shirt does not have an OPP crest. The logo is in colours 24 and has on it the words at the top, "Project Maple '95". 25 There is a picture of a stylized -- what appears to be a


1 pointed hammer with wings on either side. 2 The object which I have described as a 3 hammer is -- is on top of what appears to be a grey 4 anvil. The grey anvil has on it the words "E-R-T", in 5 colours and between the point of what I have describe as 6 a hammer and the anvil is a broken arrow. 7 I realize that the existence of the T- 8 shirt is not a matter that has been known to the public 9 or any member of the public in the eleven (11) years 10 since the T-shirt was created. Although some members of 11 the public may know of its existence from the creation of 12 the T-shirt and the wearing of it if, in fact, it has 13 been worn in public. 14 I understand from Mr. Roland that the T- 15 shirt has not been the subject of a public complaint. 16 I also appreciate the disclosure of the T- 17 shirt may create tension between members of the OPP and 18 members of First Nations and others. However, the road 19 to healing and reconciliation will not be built if 20 obstacles to that goal of healing and reconciliation are 21 not excavated and the conduct of individuals not examined 22 in the light of day. 23 It is in the nature of a public inquiry 24 and the investigation that it involves to bring to light 25 matters that have been previously confidential. It is


1 one (1) of the goals of a public inquiry that the 2 examination of the actions of individuals will lead to 3 better understanding and learning so the conduct will not 4 reoccur. 5 Thank you very much and I think Ms. Tuck- 6 Jackson has something to add. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The -- when looking at 11 the depiction of what I've described as a stylised 12 handwriting, one could abstract from the symbols a -- the 13 letters "T-R-U". If that -- that's just from looking at 14 it and we don't know that yet, but if -- if that was the 15 intent, but it does appear that way. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 17 Tuck-Jackson...? 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 19 sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 21 morning. 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I do wish to 23 put a number of remarks on the record, if I may. 24 First of all, I wish to indicate, sir, 25 that this matter first came to our attention on Tuesday


1 of this week. Neither Mr. Sandler nor myself nor 2 Commissioner Boniface was aware of it beforehand. 3 An important lesson learned at this 4 Inquiry is that when an apology is appropriate, it must 5 be made immediately. 6 Accordingly, Commissioner Boniface has 7 advised me to apologise at this time to the First Nations 8 community and to the George family for what has come to 9 light. Furthermore, she has directed that an 10 investigation into this matter be commenced immediately 11 by the Professional Standards Branch of the OPP. I have 12 been further advised that steps are being taken to 13 commence that investigation this morning. 14 In addition, I have been asked to convey 15 that the OPP is shocked and appalled by the existence of 16 these items and that it is unfortunate that they were not 17 captured in the original investigation. 18 As you know, Mr. Commissioner, 19 Commissioner Boniface is scheduled to testify before this 20 Inquiry in the upcoming weeks and I anticipate, sir, that 21 she will make a more formal apology at that time. 22 Thank you very much, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much, Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So perhaps if we could


1 just have a short recess until 9:30? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 3 We'll take a short recess and we'll reconvene at 9:30. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 9:15 a.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 9:40 a.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed. Please be seated. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 15 Tuck-Jackson...? 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, good 17 morning again, sir. There is one (1) further point that 18 I ought to have clarified in my earlier remarks. 19 I indicated, sir, that I was conveying 20 apologies on behalf of Commissioner Boniface and what I 21 failed to make clear, sir, that at the present time 22 Commissioner Boniface is overseas and wasn't in a 23 position to be able to attend personally today to convey 24 that apology herself. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you


1 very much, Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 2 Yes, Mr. Rosenthal, you have something you 3 want to say? 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. Good morning, 5 Mr. Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Millar 9 indicated that the question of the existence of T-shirts 10 arose during the examination of Rob Graham and that's 11 correct. But I should like to -- you to consider, Mr. 12 Commissioner, what happened at that time. 13 And I'm reading then from page 207 of the 14 transcript of April 21st, 2006 and Julian Roy was cross- 15 examining Mr. Graham and asked him: 16 "Did you consider the fact that you 17 might be obliged to retain it at this 18 point and perhaps produce it as 19 evidence at this Inquiry?" 20 And he answered: 21 "I never really thought of it. 22 Q: What was your understanding in 23 terms of your obligations to produce 24 potential evidence?" 25 And Mr. Roland arose and said:


1 "I'm sorry, Commissioner, but --" 2 And you, sir, said: 3 "I don't know where this is going." 4 And then Mr. Roland continued: 5 "That's not appropriate. There's no 6 obligation at all. This is a Public 7 Inquiry. There's no obligation for him 8 and his private property, whether he 9 retains it or not." 10 Mr. Roy responded: 11 "This is material evidence. In my 12 respectful submission the T-shirt is 13 material evidence." 14 And Mr. Roland replied: 15 "It's not material to anything?" 16 And then he said, Mr. Roland: 17 The fact that the existence of the T- 18 shirt is known." 19 Well it turns out there were two (2) 20 different T-shirts at least, we now know, Mr. 21 Commissioner, and pictures of it and so on. 22 And then I rose -- I'm on page 208 now to 23 ask, with respect, if I could speak to this issue and 24 indicated: 25 "There's an obligation on behalf of all


1 parties to produce evidence, any 2 relevant evidence to this Inquiry and 3 we don't have a T-shirt here. And it 4 would be very useful to have the actual 5 T-shirt as opposed to a photograph." 6 Now, Mr. Commissioner, it is almost eleven 7 (11) years later now and we don't know how many T-shirts 8 have come and gone. And it is good that finally Mr. 9 Roland has produced a T-shirt from one of his clients. 10 I gather there's just one (1) T-shirt 11 produced, I would request that the actual T-shirt be 12 brought before this Inquiry so we can see it in addition 13 to any photographs that may be submitted. 14 But you should consider this in the 15 context of Mr. Roland's comments on April 21st, 2006. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 17 Mr. Rosenthal. We fully intend to produce the actual T- 18 shirt. We have it and it will be -- 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry, sir? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We fully 21 intend to produce the actual T-shirt. We have it and we 22 will produce it I assure you of that. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I want to


1 commend my counsel for acting appropriately the instant 2 they learned of this. They brought it forward and 3 brought it to my attention first thing this morning and 4 produced it here. And I think the statements made this 5 morning are very appropriate, both by Commission counsel 6 and by Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 7 And I think we'll handle this matter in an 8 appropriate way in due course. I think that's exactly 9 what a public inquiry does and should do. Bring out 10 everything that's relevant and that's what we've tried to 11 do from the beginning and we'll continue to try to do 12 that. 13 So I thank you very much and let's get on 14 with the Inquiry. 15 16 GEORGE EDWARD HEBBLETHWAITE, Resumed 17 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 21 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Good morning, Sergeant. 23 A: Good morning. 24 Q: Yesterday at the conclusion of the 25 evidence, we were reviewing the protocols and procedures


1 in place with respect to the training manual which was in 2 use at the time of the deployment of the Crowd Management 3 Unit. 4 And yesterday you spoke to, I believe, the 5 fact that when faced with a disorderly crowd, one -- the 6 CMU would -- would don hard TAC uniforms, and I just 7 wanted a clarification in that respect. 8 Is that -- do disorderly crowds always 9 warrant the hard TAC uniform dressing?" 10 A: No. That's a clarification I -- I 11 wanted to make today. In attempting to gloss over a one 12 (1) week CTS in thirty (30) minutes it was difficult to 13 make sure that I conveyed the right information. 14 With the types of crowds that we deal 15 with, primarily broken into orderly and disorderly. 16 Disorderly crowds have different types of behaviour. In 17 the early stages of the behaviours which you could find 18 on page 627 of the exhibit we looked at yesterday -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- we've used terms such as 21 bristling, milling and collective excitement. And the 22 police response in the initial stages of the crowd that 23 seemed to be a disorderly, would be involvement 24 potentially in -- in soft TAC, possibly in -- in regular 25 uniform.


1 It would be a matter of identifying and 2 removing individuals as the tension would be rising into 3 a milling or collective excitement and arrest and 4 dispersal situation. Once things start to roll, evolve, 5 move along in those types of crowds if action is not 6 taken then we end up with a -- an explosive crowd or a 7 riot. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: So it isn't necessarily directly into 10 a hard TAC scenario and if I left that impression, that 11 wasn't correct. 12 Q: All right. Thank you. And just for 13 the record, we are referring to Exhibit P-1453, Inquiry 14 Document 2000348 then page 611 of that document. I don't 15 want to review all of the formations but the ones that 16 will help us better understand the events of September 17 the 6th, 1995. 18 And there's a reference to a box formation 19 and if I understand it correctly a box formation is also 20 a formation used with respect to approaching a disorderly 21 crowd? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No? 24 A: That's not correct. 25 Q: All right. What --


1 A: It's used to move -- to move the unit 2 down a roadway. If we're moving in a constricted area we 3 would get into a stack which is basically two by two's 4 (2x2's) in a line. 5 Q: I guess I'm looking at the reference, 6 "disorderly crowd tactics," item 610. And there seems to 7 be a distinction between a stack file and a box 8 formation. Perhaps you can just explain that. 9 A: The box formation, I believe I 10 explained yesterday consists of the four (4) squads lined 11 up six/two (6/2), six/two (6/2), six/two (6/2), six/two 12 (6/2). So if one were to look at this formation from 13 above it would look like a rectangle. 14 The stack formation is strictly pairs, a 15 line of pairs of people. It's narrower, if you were to 16 look at it from, just simply two (2) officers in a line 17 or two (2) files. 18 Q: All right. And is it not correct 19 that the box formation is used for disorderly crowds? 20 A: That's not correct. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: This -- the box formation's used to 23 move members from one (1) location to another in an -- in 24 an orderly fashion, our people. In a riotous or 25 disorderly crowd situation the box does not allow for


1 proper officer safety, the ability to move amongst 2 objects that may or may not be thrown or on the ground; 3 it just -- it's not used when confronting immediately a 4 disorderly crowd. 5 Q: All right. Thank you. And perhaps 6 we could just put before the Witness very quickly 7 Exhibits please, P-1455 and P-1454. And these appear to 8 be diagrams of the cordon formation and box formation. I 9 just want you to verify that that -- your -- consistent 10 with your understanding of those formations. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Okay. Yeah. Now, the -- the forms 15 that you have, have some handwriting which is -- was 16 adapted by or placed by Mr. Lacroix in relation to the 17 September 6th situation so perhaps you would look at the 18 formations absent the handwriting? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And are those consistent with the 21 cordon and box formations? Thank you. 22 A: The box formation, yes. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: I note in the cordon formation 25 there's an "X" drawn between the -- for the two (2)


1 officers ahead of the six (6) members. I'm not sure how 2 to -- oh, okay. 3 Q: We'll put it on the screen for you 4 and you have your laser printer there, good -- or 5 pointer? 6 A: If that can be moved up some? Yes, 7 thank you. 8 Q: Is it not working? 9 A: There we go. I don't understand why 10 the "X's" are drawn here. 11 Q: That -- that was an extrapolation 12 with respect to the September 6th situation. 13 A: Okay. Yeah. In the -- if you go up 14 just a bit, please? Go up towards the top? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Just so that the 16 Witness understands, when Mr. Lacroix drew this the -- 17 the -- it appears that the every -- that the -- it -- it 18 as he put it this drawing appears to demonstrate 19 something happening from the back and that's why all 20 these little arrows are pointing the wrong way. 21 So he took these two (2) "X's" out because 22 this, on the night of the 6th he would be moving towards 23 the top of the page as opposed to the bottom of the page. 24 THE WITNESS: Right. Thank you. I will 25 just indicate for the Inquiry that the position of the


1 support and squad leaders is behind in the right cover 2 and the left cover and again at the top with the Contact 3 Squad. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: In formation the one (1) difference 8 is that the Support Officer and the Squad Leader of the 9 Support Squad, also called the Arrest Squad, is ahead of 10 their six (6) members and that's a -- a tactical decision 11 of -- of placement of those members because with an 12 attack from the rear if the unit does an about-face those 13 leaders are within the confines of the unit. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Hopefully I'm explaining it clearly. 16 Q: Yes, you are. Thank you. 17 A: So that's their position there, as 18 opposed to the other three (3) squads where they are 19 behind here, okay? So they are in fact here in a normal 20 thirty-two (32) officer cordon. 21 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, if you 22 go to 613 of the exhibit, at particular the item titled 23 "Taking Intersections or Junctions from Cordon", so from 24 the cordon formation I take it. 25 And my question is: Was the sandy parking


1 lot the night of the September the 6th, considered to be 2 an intersection or junction in accordance with this 3 manual? 4 A: The lay of the land would certainly 5 suggest that. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: On the evening of September 6th, the 8 way -- the way we ended up into that particular area, 9 didn't allow us the opportunity to -- to view the actual 10 junction. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: It -- we went by it without realizing 13 it, for various reasons. 14 Q: Okay. All right. I wonder if you 15 would go -- I take it that part of the training program 16 is -- is how to properly use equipment? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And if you go to page 615 of the 19 exhibit, and this portion addresses both the use of a 20 baton and the use of shields, protective shields; is that 21 fair? 22 A: That's fair. 23 Q: And as I understand it, the session 24 time allotted for this particular aspect of the training 25 is eight (8) hours? Page 616.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: That's a -- that's what we have in 4 the CTS. It -- it works out to less sometimes, and 5 possibly more on other occasions, yes. That's in total. 6 Q: All right. That's for the shield and 7 the baton? 8 A: Shield, baton, movement with the 9 protective equipment, practice with it, yes. 10 Q: All right. Okay, thank you. And at 11 the time, what -- what was the baton that was used, prior 12 to September the 6th? 13 A: It was the twenty-six (26) inch 14 stick, hickory stick. 15 Q: All right. And then the night of the 16 6th was a different baton issued to the CMU? 17 A: We had a second baton issued to us. 18 I believe all of us had our hickory sticks to begin with. 19 The baton we were issued that evening was an ASP baton. 20 It's a collapsible 26 inch baton as well. 21 Q: And I believe that you have brought 22 your batons with you today? 23 A: I have. 24 Q: And perhaps you can just demonstrate 25 or at least show to the Commissioner the two (2) batons


1 that you have, and identify them, please. 2 A: Yes. This is a 26 inch hickory stick 3 baton. It has a rubber grommet that's positioned a 4 little bit differently depending on the characteristics 5 of the member that -- that owns it. A straight, wooden 6 material. It's a very durable. And this is -- I've had 7 this twenty (20) plus years. 8 Q: All right. So you had that -- that 9 was in use the -- sorry, this is your -- your baton that 10 you had in 1995 and earlier? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: The ASP baton is the -- is the 14 identical use of force option. It would be used under 15 identical circumstances. The advantage of the ASP baton, 16 and I'll demonstrate this in a moment if you wish, is 17 that it collapses. And by collapsing, it can be easily 18 worn on the belt. 19 With the baton, wearing it on the belt as 20 you're seated in a cruiser, obvious -- is problematic. 21 What was occurring often was that the baton itself would 22 be loaded into a holder on the door of the cruiser. 23 And occasionally, depending how it was put 24 into the holder, a number of different things could 25 happen; it could be kicked accidentally by the Member; it


1 could be positioned improperly such that when the door 2 was shut it would catch the opening of the door. 3 It was somewhat of a cumbersome task, 4 sometimes, to get out of the car, reach down, grab it off 5 the doorway and have it on your belt as you walked up -- 6 sorry -- to deal with a situation or a traffic stop or 7 whichever. 8 And oftentimes what would happen is 9 officers would not go through the bother of -- of taking 10 it off the door. And should they encounter a situation 11 where this was a use of force option that they needed, 12 didn't have it, then it posed problems. 13 By virtue of the way the ASP baton 14 collapses, and it is worn on your utility belt, you had 15 it with you all the time. The ASP baton is not today, or 16 was not in 1995 or '96 the baton -- or the primary baton 17 for Crowd Management. 18 Officers with the OPP today and in -- 19 since probably the '95/'96 timeline have not been issued, 20 regular officers, this baton anymore, they have been 21 issued the ASP. 22 Those officers trained with the Emergency 23 Response Team and -- and with the Crowd Management 24 component under that umbrella of emergency response 25 retain issue of the hickory stick baton because it's the


1 primary weapon -- primary baton for use by the Crowd 2 Management personnel. 3 Q: All right. So just -- 4 A: This is secondary. 5 Q: Just so I understand then the hickory 6 baton in fact is still in use today but only by members 7 of this Crowd Management Unit or I guess now the Public 8 Order Unit? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: Whereas the ASP baton is the baton 11 issued to all OPP officers? 12 A: That's correct. So the net effect is 13 those officers trained in emergency response would in 14 fact have possession of the ASP baton three hundred and 15 sixty-five (365) days of the year as well as the wooden 16 stick -- wooden baton, but the wooden baton would be part 17 of their Crowd Management kit. 18 Q: All right. Thank you. And I wonder 19 if you could just, with a little bit more detail, 20 describe the -- the dimensions, weight if you know it, 21 shape, and composition of the hickory stick or the 22 hickory baton versus the ASP baton? 23 A: In terms of weight I -- I'm not sure; 24 it's not very heavy. It is a very solid object capable 25 of disabling an individual who -- who is aggressively and


1 assaultively attacking an officer. 2 The ASP baton has -- has much the same 3 characteristics. Would you like it deployed? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: By centrifugal force the -- the unit 6 extends, and what's holding it right now is simply 7 friction. It is virtually the same length. It's a metal 8 material, a little less weight at the front end, 9 obviously, because the dimension changes from front to 10 back. 11 I'm not a physics major but -- 12 Q: No. 13 A: -- in my experience when using both 14 items I prefer the hickory stick for a number of reasons 15 and that's' why it remains the primary baton for the 16 Crowd Management members. There are some problems with 17 the ASP baton in a crowd management situation, one (1) or 18 two (2) strikes with the baton -- with this particular 19 baton the ASP will often loosen the friction grip and 20 suddenly it collapses or has a tendency to collapse. 21 Q: And why is that a disadvantage? 22 A: Well, if you want to -- if you have 23 an opportunity and -- and a need to strike an assaultive 24 individual and it collapses then you're tool is gone. It 25 -- it doesn't -- it won't have the effect that it needs


1 to have and that may be your one (1) opportunity to 2 disable an assailant in a situation and suddenly you're 3 left unable to do so. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: Whereas obviously the hickory stick 6 remains its length; it doesn't collapse and it's -- it 7 always is as it is. 8 Q: Okay. Now, in terms of the training 9 that the officers receive and received in the material 10 timeframe are they advised with respect to what -- how to 11 use -- in the sense of what types of manoeuvres or 12 strikes are appropriate and what are inappropriate? 13 A: Which baton are we talking about? 14 They're -- they're both considered a baton -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: -- an impact weapon, hard. And 17 there's no difference in the training and the instruction 18 in terms of target locations -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: --and when it is -- when it can be 21 deployed. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: The only difference between the two 24 (2) is -- is just knowing how to collapse the ASP baton 25 so that you can put it back on your duty belt. And


1 there's a small pin on the inside of the handle that is 2 like a tension spring that allows -- that -- that can be 3 adjusted as need be to allow for easier extension and 4 easier collapse. 5 Q: All right. Are there particular body 6 parts then that the officers are instructed to avoid in 7 the use of either of the batons? 8 A: Absolutely. 9 Q: Which? 10 A: Head, neck, absolutely avoid; groin, 11 absolutely avoid, where possible. 12 Q: The skull? 13 A: the head, a skull. No, it's -- 14 Q: The jaw? 15 A: Nothing above the shoulders. It's 16 upper arm, lower arm, upper leg, lower leg. 17 Q: And why are those parts to be 18 avoided? 19 A: Well, a baton strike to the neck or 20 head certainly could kill someone. 21 Q: All right. And can you describe the 22 circumstances under which using a baton in -- in a -- in 23 a way in which they contact with a subject person, the 24 circumstances under which that is considered justifiable 25 and was in 1995?


1 A: A -- a situation where you have an 2 assailant approach you, you could be with fists, and it's 3 a matter of being able to deflect those blows and inflict 4 a debilitating blow on that individual to stop them from 5 assaulting you. 6 A lot of it depends -- there's a lot of 7 factors that depend on the actual officer's experience; 8 training; confidence level; what they feel -- how they 9 feel that particular day; what use of force would best 10 overcome what they're confronted with. 11 Some would use a baton. Some may use -- 12 in that scenario of an assaultive person with fists, they 13 may use Capsicum spray or pepper spray. It could be a 14 baton or they may feel competent enough to just deal with 15 it hand to hand. 16 Q: And can you describe where in the 17 continuum of force, the baton is considered, I guess 18 relative to firearms on one end to pepper spray to other 19 such equipment that you have to deploy? 20 A: In the aggressive assaultive area. 21 Hard impact. 22 Q: And what does that mean? 23 A: I -- sorry, I don't understand your 24 question. 25 Q: Can you give me an example of that.


1 You -- you've used the word 'aggressive impact'. 2 A: No, a hard impact weapon -- 3 Q: Hard im -- 4 A: -- is what this is considered to be. 5 Q: Meaning? 6 A: Impact weapon's hard. It -- it's a 7 hard physical object. 8 Q: Meaning it could inflict serious 9 damage on the person? 10 A: The tool itself is -- is that and we 11 have openhanded techniques where we would try and control 12 a person. We have hard impact weapons which could be 13 used to deliver a blow that would disable the individual 14 that was attacking you; be it through a strike into the 15 lower arm, the leg, something that would debilitate, 16 create an injury that would stop them from doing what 17 they were doing to you. 18 Q: Okay. Thank you. And can you 19 describe the -- the variables at play in deploying a 20 baton, either of the batons and if there's a difference 21 tell me, in terms of the physical impact of a baton 22 strike or a jab on the subject? 23 A: Could you -- 24 Q: Are there variables that -- at play 25 which will inform how hard or at least how -- how much


1 impact is going to be received on -- by the victim? 2 A: The variables would be, if I 3 understand your question correctly, the skill and ability 4 of the officer that's wielding the use of force option, 5 the baton. 6 Q: All right. And the strength 7 presumably? 8 A: Certainly the strength; the 9 technique; the position of the member as they're 10 deploying that use of force option and whether they're 11 standing, if they're down on the ground defending 12 themselves. 13 Q: And assuming all those variables are 14 the same, the same officer, the same technique, strength, 15 skill level, is there -- in that case if the ASP baton 16 was used to strike the subject, would it likely inflict 17 more or less bodily damage on the person than the -- if 18 it was the Hickory baton that was being used in the same 19 circumstance? 20 A: I don't believe I'm expert enough to 21 comment. In the hundred percent range from a personal 22 experience -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- I would suggest no, it's the same 25 -- same affect.


1 Q: All right. And I understand one (1) 2 of the other tactics that you teach in the course at 616 3 is shield chatter. 4 A: Yes in '95; that was taught in '94. 5 Q: All right. And can you tell me first 6 of all, what is it and second, what is the objective of 7 that particular tactic? 8 A: The tactic itself is taking the tip 9 of your baton and either striking the inside of your 10 shield as it's held in front of you or on the edge. It 11 creates a racket, a noise. 12 The reason it's done is to intimidate 13 individuals if they can be intimidated to cease what 14 they're doing as opposed to having to have contact with 15 the officers; that's -- it's a much better way to end a 16 situation. 17 Q: All right. And is there any 18 disadvantage which is taught to the deployment or use of 19 shield chatter in crowd situations? 20 A: Not that I'm aware of, no. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: I may -- may stand corrected on that. 23 We don't teach that any more. It just doesn't -- it's 24 not deemed to be effective, is the reason I recall that 25 it was just discontinued.


1 Q: So the tactic itself -- 2 A: The tactic itself -- 3 Q: -- is not longer employed by the CMU 4 or the Public Order Unit? 5 A: I don't believe it's in the CTS 6 anymore. It's certainly an option that we could -- we 7 could use if whoever was in charge at the time felt it 8 necessary. 9 Again, you can appreciate that back in '94 10 this was a brand new program and we incorporated 11 techniques that were untested from our perspective. 12 We've used shield chatter in umpteen training sessions. 13 We've used it occasionally in operational situations; 14 Ipperwash being the first. 15 And it -- it had an effect on the crowd, 16 to be sure, but it also had a negative effect, I suppose, 17 on the members themselves within the unit being able to 18 hear and understand commands. 19 So I suspect that was my opinion at the 20 time. I recall that it -- it -- it was problematic. It 21 had the desired effect in some cases, on the crowd we 22 were facing but at the same time it posed some issue 23 within the ranks of the -- of the unit in terms of it 24 being able to understand orders, commands and 25 instructions.


1 Q: And in your experience, did the 2 shield chatter from time to time have the opposite 3 effect? In other words, not a deterrent effect but a 4 exciting, if you will, or an enhancing effect, an 5 antagonistic effect? 6 A: I don't recall that being an issue -- 7 Q: All right. 8 A: -- ever. 9 Q: Now you indicated earlier that there 10 were two (2) orders of dress; a soft TAC and hard TAC. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: I believe that's outlined at pages 13 619 and 620 of the exhibit. And perhaps you can just 14 review those -- first of all, review what the -- the 15 components are of the soft TAC versus hard TAC and then 16 I'd like to know when soft TAC is in order, versus a hard 17 TAC dress. 18 A: Okay. The soft TAC refers to soft 19 tactical. It's the grey tactical uniform with the Member 20 wearing their body armour and a grey tactical over vest. 21 There is a baseball cap, Gortex boots, groin protection, 22 duty belt with your sidearm and all your use of force 23 equipment, the baton as well, and shin guards -- 24 Q: And the OC cannister? 25 A: The OC cannister is your personal


1 issue pepper spray. 2 Q: Thank you. 3 A: That's always on our belts. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Hard TAC is, simply from that level 6 you would increase the amount of protection that you're 7 wearing on the arms; a similar material that you have on 8 your legs, you'd also have a padding on your thigh. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: You have padding or have protective 11 material over your forearms and around the top of your 12 elbow. You are also wearing a helmet as well as a 13 shield. 14 That was hard TAC in 1995. There are some 15 differences today. 16 Q: All right. And in terms of -- could 17 you just tell us when is the soft TAC -- what's the 18 advantage of the soft TAC versus hard TAC dressing? 19 A: Well, with soft TAC you're still 20 haven't reached the stage of violence. You're still 21 attempting to reason with some individuals. You're 22 attempting to identify and remove leaders from the 23 nucleus of the crowd. And if you're do -- if you're 24 successful in doing that, you will nullify the escalation 25 of the event. You will be successful in -- in de-


1 escalating the situation. 2 Once you are into a situation where you 3 have items being thrown, the crowd is becoming violent, 4 be it with sticks, and sometimes you'll have people in 5 the crowds with slingshots. Once you have projectiles 6 coming then obviously standing there with a ball hat on 7 is not proper. 8 Q: All right. So -- 9 A: So that's -- once it gets violent, at 10 that stage you would have your full equipment. 11 Q: All right. So when you get suited in 12 a hard TAC then you know that you're going into a 13 situation in which there could very well be elevate -- an 14 elevated chance of violence of some sort? 15 A: Yes, that's fair. 16 Q: Okay. Now, I understand that one of 17 the components of assessing appropriate strategy for a 18 CMU is understanding and identifying the crowd behaviour; 19 is that right? 20 A: Yeah. Yes. 21 Q: And could you just explain that in a 22 general way how -- how is that categorized and what are 23 the -- I believe you started to do that earlier 24 actually, that page 621. How are they cat -- 25 characterized and what kinds of behaviours are


1 representative of those categories? 2 A: I believe if you went back to 615, 3 maybe 612... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: You might -- you might go to page 621 8 and then 625 to 26. 9 A: Okay. Well, that piece of the -- of 10 the course training standards deals with identifying for 11 definition purposes what exactly a crowd is and some 12 characteristics and general behaviour of crowds. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: The -- the officer's basic 15 responsibilities when dealing with crowds. I don't -- 16 I'm not sure how much detail you want here. 17 Q: All right. Well, I'd like to know I 18 guess in particular, first of all on what base -- I 19 understand there are four (4) types of crowds as -- as 20 you've indicated already; casual, cohesive, aggressive, 21 and explosive? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what -- can you just very briefly 24 indicate the key characteristics of each and how -- how 25 that -- how the assessment is determined?


1 A: Well, the first three (3) crowds that 2 you mentioned are considered in the orderly crowd 3 scenario. Most -- most of what goes to determine the 4 nature of the crowd is the reason for them being there. 5 Why are they there? Do they have leaders? Do they have 6 a common purpose? Are they there because they have a 7 severe disagreement? Are they there because they have 8 major involvement in the issue at hand? 9 Sometimes persons that are involved in a 10 crowd are there only because they're curious, they're 11 spectators, so it doesn't -- it's identifying the -- the 12 purpose of the crowd and then once you have that 13 established then you keep in mind the -- the area that 14 they're in, the routes that it would take to come into an 15 area, how they might be dispersed out of an area, a lot 16 of different factors. 17 I believe I spoke yesterday about a sports 18 -- sports venue as a typical cohesive crowd environment. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: In terms of casual crowds it's a 21 crowd that's in -- in a given area, a defined area, a 22 group of people but without -- without leaders, without a 23 common bond between them; that's a very casual crowd -- 24 group of people in a recognized area. 25 As the crowd becomes more gelled, more


1 unified, then you're -- you're talking aggressive crowds, 2 you're talking explosive or riotous crowds. 3 And again that's -- the -- the common 4 thread there is you advance up the scale from a -- of a 5 very quiet, benign crowd to an explosive or riotous 6 crowd. The element that increases is the leadership and 7 the commitment to the issue at hand. 8 Q: All right. And if you look, for 9 example at 625, it's noted that the aggre -- features of 10 an aggressive crowd are very strong feelings, strong 11 leadership, chanting, require police control, and lack of 12 control could result in a riot. 13 And I'm interested in the last two (2) 14 points. What -- what is meant by those last two (2) 15 points? 16 A: I'm sorry, at 625? 17 Q: Yes, under Item 3, Aggressive Crowds. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: What's meant there is that we have -- 22 we'll have officers present, soft TAC, and if the crowd 23 is continued to go unfettered by the officers' 24 involvement then it will probably evolve into a riot so 25 that it requires action on the police to -- to take


1 members that are identified as leaders of the crowd, to 2 disperse people, to break up the groups. 3 The biggest issue in -- in disorderly 4 crowds that creates a lot of problems is there's a sense 5 amongst many of the members of anonymity. You have 6 people in a crowd that will do things that if they were 7 in a position of two (2) or three (3) people or one-on- 8 one with an officer, or one-on-one with anyone, they want 9 to exhibit the behaviour that they do in a large crowd 10 when they think they can get away with something. 11 Typically if we're dealing with a -- a 12 striking crowd that's quite unified in -- in purpose. A 13 lot of the problems that we have as police officers 14 assigned to maintain the peace in those situations 15 doesn't come from those that you are facing directly, it 16 comes from those persons that are four (4) and five (5) 17 lines back in the crowd that can't be seen, that are 18 anonymous to -- to the officers. 19 So that's -- that's the persons that are 20 throwing things or -- or voicing -- voicing themselves 21 more so than the persons on the front side. 22 Q: All right. And then the next step up 23 if you will, is the explosive crowd and it features the 24 characteristics of a riot and caused when two (2) things 25 occur; first survival needs are threatened, second,


1 comfort needs threatened. 2 Can you just give us some examples of 3 that? 4 A: Yes. Unfortunately there's -- 5 there's too many of the examples of the first; survival 6 needs are threatened. You have -- you had nightclub 7 fires in the United States come to mind. A nightclub 8 where there was a fire, obviously a survival situation 9 has -- has developed. 10 It's -- people are fleeing, you don't have 11 exits sufficient enough to handle those fleeing the fire 12 and there's people being trampled, people being trapped. 13 It's -- it's a riot, it's a dash for survival out the 14 door. That's a survival needs scenario. 15 Comfort needs. One of the analogies we 16 draw in the training would be an example of a factory in 17 a small town that's the significant or possibly the only 18 major employer, they announce that they're going to close 19 the doors next week. 20 And suddenly those working at the plant 21 have rightful anxiety of about what's going to happen to 22 the mortgage, how am I going to look after my family and 23 it -- it evokes a -- a gut response to -- to the 24 situation at hand and can lead to out of control 25 behaviour.


1 Q: All right. And as I look at these 2 definitions, can you tell me, are they -- were they 3 intended to cover an occupation scenario? 4 A: These were general -- general terms. 5 It's difficult to have any kind of a policy that -- that 6 covers every eventuality. I would suggest it -- it 7 doesn't. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: There's many elements of an 10 occupation that are covered off in -- in the course 11 training standards here as well as there are items of it 12 that -- that are not or likely not. 13 Q: So essentially you're faced with a 14 situation of extrapolating from a crowd management tactic 15 to respond to something that's a little different in the 16 form of an occupation if you're in fact deployed to make 17 that situation? 18 A: I wouldn't fully agree with that. 19 You have -- we've dealt with scenarios where persons have 20 been occupying factories. So that could be looked at by 21 some as a very similar situation and we'll deal with them 22 as -- as a crowd as well. I don't know how else to 23 answer that. 24 Q: All right. I understand that there's 25 an operating assumption called -- for the CMU, but it was


1 called the Public Disorder Formula. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Perhaps you could just explain what 4 that is and provide us with some examples. And it's, I 5 think, referred to at page 627 of the manual. 6 A: Yes, I'm familiar with that. 7 Q: Yes, of course. 8 A: The formula it -- it's called 9 Predisposing Factor and a Precipitating Factor can equal 10 disorder. 11 Predisposing factors generally are 12 historical of course which obviously is the situation at 13 Ipperwash in 1995. It could be political, it could be 14 economic. Something -- some condition or -- or a 15 disagreement that pre-exists the event of the day. 16 Precipitating factor could be a number of 17 things. It could be the appearance of an individual at 18 the heart of the disagreement. It certainly -- it could 19 be a fire, a survival need situation. It could be 20 assaultive behaviour that starts. 21 Q: Could it also be the arrest of one 22 (1) of the crowd participants? 23 A: Potentially, yes. 24 Q: Okay. All right. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And at the end of the day then, what 4 is the object then of a -- of a Crowd Management 5 deployment? 6 A: To restore order. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Who makes the call as to what tactics 11 to employ? For example, whether it's a shield chatter 12 call or punchout or the type -- whether it's a soft TAC 13 or hard TAC dress that -- that is recommended? 14 A: Generally the Incident Commander, 15 Level 1, which in the light of September 6th would have 16 been Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix. 17 Q: All right. And under what 18 circumstances, if any, is instructions -- or instructions 19 required from a Level 2 Incident Commander with respect 20 to the use of any tactics? 21 A: Tactics are generally not for the 22 purview of the Level 2 Incident Command. The Level 2 23 Incident Commander has responsibility for the whole 24 picture. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.


1 A: He or she will designate an objective 2 or issue a request to have something occur then it's up 3 to the Level 1 Incident Command in a public order 4 scenario to determine what tactics are necessary to 5 achieve that objective. 6 Q: All right. And just for clarity, was 7 the deployment of September 6th seen to be a public order 8 or disorder scenario? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Thank you. And is there anything 11 else, from a training perspective, which you can think of 12 which will help us understand the CMU actions of 13 September the 6th? 14 A: The movement down the road was pretty 15 much text book. The formation that we were in, the 16 cordon formation was -- was done well, properly. 17 The withdrawal at one point was, again, 18 appropriate. The movement back to the tactical 19 operations centre was done in formation again, which is 20 part of the training. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: The response to the assaultive 23 behaviour that I saw was within the course training 24 standard, was what I would have expected to see. 25 Q: I guess perhaps I didn't express it


1 properly. I wasn't asking you to review that, but 2 whether there was anything from a training perspective 3 that would assist us to understand the deployment or 4 whether we've covered those object -- those areas now? 5 A: I believe we've covered it. 6 Q: All right, thank you. Then just 7 returning briefly to your -- your professional career. I 8 understand that in January of 1996, you became the second 9 in charge of the Great -- Greater Toronto Region ERT? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And in the fall of 1996, you became 12 team leader of the Greater Toronto Region ERT? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And June 2002 you resigned from ERT 15 to accept a twelve (12) month posting with the United 16 Nations in Kosovo? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And in July 2003 returned to the 19 Cambridge Detachment? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And as you've indicated, as of 22 February 2006, you are in charge of the Port Credit 23 office as an acting staff sergeant? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: Now, in the summer of 1995, you were


1 the Assistant Team Leader of Number 6 district ERT and an 2 instructor in CMU tactics as you've indicated. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And if you could just tell us what 5 region did the 6 -- Number 6 District ERT cover. 6 A: It was a Mount Forest district. It 7 went from Cambridge to Owen Sound to Goderich to Meaford. 8 Q: All right. And prior to the summer 9 of 1995, had you any involvement in Ipperwash-related 10 policing events? 11 A: No. 12 Q: I understand that you had three (3) 13 separate assignments to -- or postings to Ipperwash in 14 August of 1995 through early September of 1995? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And did you make notes reflecting 17 your duties in connection with Ipperwash? 18 A: I did. 19 Q: If you would go to Tab 2, please, of 20 your binder. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: It's Inquiry Document Number 2005591. 25 And can you identify this document, please.


1 A: These are copies of my notebook 2 entries in that timeline. 3 Q: And I understand that they reflect 4 notes in relation to Ipperwash assignments from August 1 5 to 10, August 14 to 28, and then August 30 to September 6 5, 1995? 7 A: Yes, that sounds right. 8 Q: Did you make these notes in or 9 shortly after the events reflected in them? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: Are you under a duty to make these 12 notes? 13 A: Yes, I am. 14 Q: And did you make them in discharge of 15 your policing duty? 16 A: I did. 17 Q: Have you made any additions, 18 alterations, or deletions since you created these 19 entries? 20 A: No, I have not. 21 Q: I'd like to make this the next 22 exhibit please? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1476, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1476: Document Number 2005591.


1 Handwritten notebook entries 2 of George Hebblethwaite. 3 August 1-10, 14-28, August 30 4 to September 05, 1995. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: Can you explain in a general way what 8 you guidelines were in relation to what events you would 9 typically make a note about and the level of detail you'd 10 typically reflect in your notes. 11 A: The location of duty; time on, time 12 off; activities through the course of the day which I may 13 be asked to account for or may be necessary for court 14 purposes or may be of -- of a nature that may have some 15 import at a later such as for intelligence reasons. 16 Q: All right. And do your notes purport 17 to reflect all of the details of an occurrence or 18 particular assignment? 19 A: Yes, they attempt to. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And they're -- they're made primarily 22 to refresh memory, not that they're made to be able to 23 refresh my memory eleven (11) years later, but at the 24 time, within reason, to refresh memory in the year -- two 25 (2) year timeline would probably be fair.


1 Q: All right. And I wonder if we might 2 just go to the August 2nd entry. This is on your page 20 3 -- sorry, 95 of your notebook. It's the second page in 4 on this document. 5 A: Yes? 6 Q: And the -- I believe it's an 8:30 7 entry? 8 A: I'll just pull out the original, if I 9 may. 10 Q: That -- that would be fine. 11 A: This is difficult -- 12 Q: Some of this is faded. 13 A: I have it. I'm sorry. 14 Q: And it is 8:30? 15 A: At the top? 16 Q: Yes, the first -- 17 A: It's eight o'clock. 18 Q: Eight o'clock is the first entry? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Would you kindly just review that 21 entry and -- and read it into the record for us please? 22 A: It's August 2nd, 1995. It's 23 Wednesday. I have noted 8:00 a.m. or 08:00. 24 "Special detail at Ipperwash. 25 Authority Inspector Trachsel.


1 Travelled to Pinery Park with a 2 cruiser, number 6595, to be available 3 twenty-four (24) hours a day. 4 Compensated at fourteen (14) hours a 5 day." 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: "Met at the detachment by Inspector 10 Carson and Inspector Linton." 11 Do you want me to read line for line? 12 Q: Just finish that one (1) entry 13 please. 14 A: Okay. I have a bracket here: 15 "It was a sixteen (16) hour day for 16 Number 1 District." 17 Activity sheet, which is our -- at the 18 time my way of recording hours worked in a given period, 19 was to reflect 08:00 to 22:00 hours which would be a 20 fourteen (14) hour workday. 21 Q: Okay. All right. And that's 22 sufficient. Now, what was the -- the purpose of the 23 meeting with Inspectors Carson and Linton? 24 A: That actual meeting occurred at 15:15 25 hours.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: And that would have been instructions 3 and briefings from them at the time. 4 Q: All right. And what did you recall 5 learning of the -- the Ipperwash situation in general and 6 -- and what your responsibilities would be in particular? 7 A: Specific words spoken that day I just 8 do not recall at all. 9 Q: I appreciate that but perhaps you can 10 give us the essence of it? 11 A: The essence, as I recall, was that 12 the Base had been taken over, that our job was to have a 13 police presence in the area to ensure the safety of the 14 individuals residing in the immediate vicinity of -- of 15 the Base. 16 We were also to have a presence at the 17 Provincial Park where we had persons, tourists and 18 whatnot staying there within the confines; tenting, 19 camping. 20 Overall it was primarily a police presence 21 as I recall -- our purpose down there. 22 Q: All right. And were you provided 23 with any background with respect to the -- the history of 24 the situation or the motivations of the occupation of the 25 barracks in the Army Camp?


1 A: I can't be certain so I -- I can't 2 answer. 3 Q: All right. Do you recall at this 4 time being apprised of any concern that the Park was a 5 potential takeover target? 6 A: If not on this date, it was certainly 7 during that month, yes. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I can advise the Commission that I 10 was aware of some of the history of -- of the Ipperwash 11 facility prior to August of '95. I was actually in 12 attendance at that camp in 1968 as a -- as an army cadet. 13 I do recall various incidents that were 14 reported through the media occurring in that area that 15 year and the year prior. So it wasn't totally 16 unfamiliar, albeit I hadn't been there. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: But as for what exactly was said on 19 August 2nd by Inspector Carson and Inspector Linton, I -- 20 I can't be -- I can't be positive. 21 Q: All right. And you indicated that 22 your primary role was to provide a -- a visible police 23 presence in and around the Park and around the Army Camp. 24 A: In the vicinity, yes. 25 Q: And was that by was of -- were you a


1 uniformed officer? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And was it by way of patrols 4 essentially? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Both foot patrols and -- 7 and also cruiser patrols? 8 A: Yes. In the Park we did foot 9 patrols. In the area of the Army Camp Road and Highway 10 21, we did cruiser patrols. We also had static 11 observation early on in August as I recall; parked, sides 12 of the road, just watching the traffic. 13 Q: All right. And were you required 14 from time to time to file or have filed on your behalf, 15 operational reports? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what was the -- what would 18 dictate the filing of an operational report? 19 A: It would depend -- be dependent upon 20 the information that was obtained during either a traffic 21 stop or the investigation of an incident or something of 22 an import that -- that needed to be documented, filed and 23 reported. 24 Q: And if you look at Tab then 4 to 25 begin with which is the Inquiry Document 2000757;


1 Emergency Response Team Number 6 District, Mount Forest 2 Operational Report dated August 4, 1995. 3 And is this one (1) of the operational 4 reports that was filed on -- on your behalf? 5 A: Yes, it was. 6 Q: And make that the next exhibit 7 please. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1477, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1477: Document Number 2000757. ERT 11 Operational Report (Sgt 12 Hebblethwaite, Cst Stirling) 13 August 04, 1995. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: And Tab 5 is another Operational 17 Report dated August 5th, 1995. It's Inquiry Document 18 2000760. Again, was that filed on your behalf? 19 A: Yes, it was. 20 Q: And make that the next exhibit. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1478, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1478: Document Number 2000760. ERT 25 Operational Report (Stirling,


1 Hebblethwaite) August 05, 2 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: Tab 6 which is Inquiry Document 6 20000764 dated August 6th '95; again was this Operational 7 Report filed on your behalf? 8 A: Yes, it was. 9 Q: And we'll that the next exhibit 10 please. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1479, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1479: Document Number 2000764. ERT 14 Operational Report 15 (Hebblethwaite, Stirling) 16 August 06, 1995. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: Finally at Tab 7, Inquiry Document 20 20000787 dated August 16, 1995, and is that an 21 Operational Report which was filed on your behalf? 22 A: Yes, it was. 23 Q: And we'll make that the next exhibit 24 please. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1480, Your Honour.


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1480: Document Number 2000787. ERT 2 Operational Report 3 (Hebblethwaite, Stirling) 4 August 06, 1995. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: And to your knowledge were any other 8 Operational Reports filed by you or on your behalf in 9 August 1995? 10 A: I don't recall. But I would suspect 11 there was, but if it's not here then possibly not. 12 Q: All right. Now over the course of 13 your assignment in August and early September of '95 and 14 I mean prior to the Park occupation, so prior to 15 September 4th, did you learn of any firearm related 16 activity concerning the occupiers of Camp Ipperwash? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what -- first of all, what -- 19 what did you learn and what was the source of your 20 knowledge? 21 A: It was through speaking with other 22 officers and from -- from personal experience. It was 23 not uncommon to be driving or walking in the Park and you 24 could hear the sound of gunfire from nearby -- at the 25 Base, nearby.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: The gunfire would consist of fully 3 automatic weapons as well as just straight, probably 4 semi-automatic or single action rifle shots. 5 Q: And did you hear all of those types-- 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: -- of gunshot? And did -- did any of 8 -- of these reports or hearing by you cause you any 9 particular concerns from a public or police safety 10 perspective? 11 A: It was so common it -- it -- no. 12 Q: All right. And did you report 13 whenever, to your -- to the Incident Commander any such 14 sounds or sightings? 15 A: Specifically, I don't recall. 16 Q: And I should indicate, did you ever 17 see any -- anyone discharge firearms within the Army 18 Camp? 19 A: I did not. 20 Q: All right. Over the course of your 21 assignments, again, in August and into early September 22 before the Park occupation, did you have any knowledge 23 with respect to the use of vehicles in an aggressive 24 manner by occupiers of Camp Ipperwash? 25 A: I was aware of -- I believe it was at


1 the time that the Base was in the process of being 2 occupied, that a school bus had struck military vehicles. 3 Q: All right. And that was the extent 4 of your knowledge in that respect? 5 A: As I recall, yes. 6 Q: All right. You had no reports with 7 respect to accounts by Military Police other than that? 8 A: Today, I don't recall. 9 Q: All right. Is that the type of thing 10 you would have put into your notebook? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Did you witness or learn 13 of any significant alterations (sic) between Park users 14 and members of the First Nation occupying the Army Camp? 15 A: Altercations in the form of? 16 Q: Aggressive or hostile? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: There were a lot of reports from 21 campers at various points throughout that summer of 22 harassment, or complaints of intimidation and harassment 23 by the campers from persons on the base side of the fence 24 between the Park and the Base. 25 It involved vehicles being driven


1 erratically on the beach area and on a road that ran the 2 perimeter of the Park. It involved spotlights being 3 shone at the campers. It involved music, as I recall, 4 loud music. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: I don't recall an incident of actual 7 assault -- assaultive behaviour. It was primarily 8 harassment and feelings of intimidation. 9 Q: All right. And did you witness or 10 did you learn of any significant altercations between 11 members of the OPP and the -- any members of the -- the 12 occupiers of the Army Camp? 13 A: What's the time line? 14 Q: The same timeframe; August to early 15 September '95, prior to the Park occupation. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: So Monday the Labour Day night was -- 20 was not in your timeline? 21 Q: No, it's not. 22 A: Okay. No. 23 Q: Thank you. And finally, did you 24 witness or learn of any significant altercations between 25 military personnel and the occupiers prior to the


1 takeover of the barracks? Have you heard of anything 2 like that? 3 A: I had, but the specifics of which I 4 can't recall today. 5 Q: All right, thank you. Did you ever 6 enter onto the Army Camp Base over the course of your 7 assignments? 8 A: No. The furthest I was, was to the 9 gate entrance. 10 Q: The main army gate? 11 A: Yes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: All right. And did you have any 16 understanding of -- of -- well, first of all, were you 17 permitted on the Army Camp? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And did you have any understanding as 20 to the terms which governed whether or not you could 21 enter the Army Camp to pursue a policing matter? 22 A: I recall that there was some type of 23 protocol but as to exactly what it was, I can't say 24 today. 25 Q: All right. In any event, to your


1 knowledge, you were not to enter the Army Camp? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And did you have any 4 significant communications with any of the occupiers of 5 the Army Camp? 6 A: I had conversation with a number of 7 people. I -- significant, I -- I'm not sure -- 8 Q: All right. 9 A: -- how that goes. 10 Q: What was the nature of the -- the 11 general communications you had with them? 12 A: Just casual, diplomatic. On one (1) 13 occasion I spoke to persons at the gate about an 14 individual who was walking on the roadway nearby. I was 15 attempting to find out if they knew who the individual 16 was, where he -- where he could be. I had some concerns 17 for his safety. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And I was looking to do him a favour 20 of either taking him to the Base or elsewhere, and I had 21 conversation with people. And without hunting it down in 22 my notes I -- I seem to recall they -- they knew who the 23 person was and they weren't concerned at the time. I 24 don't mean in a negative way, they -- they didn't have 25 the concerns that I did so everything was fine.


1 Q: All right. So there was some level 2 in any event of casual communication between you and some 3 of the occupiers? 4 A: Yes, there was. 5 Q: All right. And did you have any 6 conversations with -- with Marcel Beaubien who was the -- 7 the local MPP prior to September the 4th? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. Did you know Wade Lacroix 10 or Lacroix very well prior to September the 4th? 11 A: I knew him professionally, yes. 12 Q: Okay. Had you been engaged in 13 assignments with him involving either the Crowd 14 Management Unit or the Crowd Control Unit? 15 A: From a training perspective I was, 16 yes. 17 Q: All right. Now, were you aware of a 18 meeting held on September the 1st at the London 19 Detachment led by Inspector Carson concerning the OPP 20 response to a potential Park occupation? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Were you apprised of the contents of 23 that meeting by anyone? 24 A: I don't recall being apprised, no. 25 Q: All right. You indicated that at


1 some point you became aware that the Park was a potential 2 target for occupation. Can you give us a -- a sense of 3 the timeframe in which you learned that and what the 4 source of your information was? 5 A: I'm sorry, I can't. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Some time in the month of August. 8 Q: In August. Do you know where you got 9 that information from? 10 A: I'd be guessing. I'm sorry, no. 11 Q: All right. Was any of your 12 assignments altered or -- altered in any way to deal with 13 potential Park occupation? 14 A: As I recall, no. 15 Q: All right. Did you have any 16 awareness as to any of the motivations or potential 17 motivations of such a Park occupation? 18 A: Specifically, no. I had some general 19 sense of why. 20 Q: Can you tell us what your 21 understanding was at the time? 22 A: That the Park was -- was felt to be 23 land that belonged to the First Nations people, that a 24 piece of the Park was also an area of some significance. 25 Q: And what type of significance?


1 A: I just lost the word. It was a -- a 2 sacred area. I -- I was aware of the -- there was a 3 finger of land that projected into -- into the lake at 4 the northwest part of the Park and I was aware during my 5 patrols there that this area was -- had some -- some 6 significance to the First Nations people. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: And at -- the staff of the Park -- it 9 was just a carte blanche; come in by all means, visit the 10 area, do what you feel you need to. And it was just an 11 open door policy for that reason. 12 Q: And did you understand that to be 13 called the Stoney Point? 14 A: Actually no, I didn't. 15 Q: All right. Did you have any 16 information about there being allegations or claims that 17 there were burial grounds within the Park prior to 18 September the 4th? 19 A: I wasn't aware of that. I -- I think 20 in -- in the past I may have referred to the -- the 21 sacred area as a burial ground or a cemetery but that 22 wasn't found and it was -- the proper term I would have 23 been using would be a sacred area. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: As far as it being a -- a disputed


1 burial ground I -- I wasn't aware of that. 2 Q: All right. Were you aware of the 3 codename that was assigned to the operation governing the 4 potential Park operation -- or occupation? 5 A: At some point, yes. 6 Q: All right. And what did you 7 understand that to be called? 8 A: Maple. 9 Q: And did you ever see a hardcopy of 10 Project Maple? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Were you ever apprised of the 13 contents of Project Maple as it related to possible ERT 14 involvement? 15 A: I may have been apprised of the 16 operational direction not knowing it was part of the 17 actual project, yes. 18 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Now, by the 19 onset of the Labour Day weekend in 1995 do you have any 20 understanding as to the level of risk of an actual Park 21 occupation occurring in or around the Labour Day weekend 22 by members of the self-identified Stoney Point Group? 23 A: In regards to...? 24 Q: There being an occupation of the 25 Park?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: What was the level of -- of risk of 3 that possibility materializing? 4 A: Okay. I understand now. It -- if it 5 occurred during the period when the Park was open and was 6 occupied by campers, tourists, day pass people, obviously 7 the risk could be that there -- there may be some 8 confrontations, there may be the opportunity for damage 9 to property. If it occurred after the Park was closed 10 obviously that -- that wouldn't be an issue. 11 Q: All right. And what was your primary 12 tasks on September the 4th of 1995? 13 A: I don't believe I was there on the 14 4th. 15 Q: Would you kindly go to Tab 2. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Okay. Thank you. Tab 2 page 99 20 then. You weren't on-duty on -- on September -- on 21 September the 4th but then were you duty September the 22 5th? 23 A: Well, I was on duty on September 4th 24 but not at Ipperwash. 25 Q: Not at Ipperwash.


1 A: Right. 2 Q: Yes. Fair enough. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Sorry, I just lost my page number 7 there. It's actually page 27 of your notebook; there's 8 an entry September the 4th, 1995. 9 A: Yes, I was working a 4:00 p.m. to 10 4:00 a.m. shift at the OPP office in Cambridge. 11 Q: All right. And did you receive a 12 telephone call in relation to Ipperwash-related matters? 13 A: Yes, at approximately 9:00 p.m. -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- I was dispatched by radio to 16 return to my detachment and subsequently had conversation 17 at about 9:20 p.m. with Sergeant Huntley, my team leader. 18 Q: And what was the -- the purpose of 19 the telephone call? 20 A: It was to notify me that we were -- 21 were required to attend the Ipperwash area and that Rob 22 or Sergeant Huntley and I split up the list of team 23 members to contact. It would -- it would shorten the 24 process of -- of contacting the members. 25 Q: All right. And did you learn of the


1 circumstances of the -- of the takeover of the Park at 2 that time? 3 A: I may have. I can't be sure. 4 Q: All right. And then follows a list 5 of the ERT members who you contacted? 6 A: Yes. It was Officer Smith, Officer 7 Stirling, Officer Weverink, Officer Spencer, Officer 8 Osborne, Officer Cloes, and Officer Christie. 9 Q: All right. And did you -- what did 10 you do -- what did you convey to them? 11 A: Again, specifically, I don't know, 12 but I'm sure it would have been along the lines of -- of 13 we have to report first thing in the morning to the 14 Forest Detachment area. 15 I would have provided them as much detail 16 as I knew at the time. 17 Q: All right. And what was your 18 expectation with respect -- was the ERT being called out 19 at this time? 20 A: We were to be at Forest by 7:00 in 21 the morning -- 22 Q: Right. 23 A: -- on September 5th. 24 Q: Did you have any further briefings or 25 did you -- either by Sergeant Huntley or any -- anyone


1 else with respect to the circumstances of your assignment 2 for the next day? 3 A: Are we talking the evening of the 4 4th? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: I don't believe so. 7 Q: All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Right. And did Sergeant Huntley tell 12 you where you were to report for duty the next day? 13 A: Yes, the Forest Detachment. 14 Q: Forest Detachment. All right. Did 15 he give you any other sense of the assignments? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. Fair enough. And moving 18 on to September the 5th, 1995, and perhaps we -- we could 19 go to Tab 8, which is Inquiry Document Number 2005416. 20 And these appear to be your notes for 21 September the 5th and 6th, 1995 and part of September the 22 7th, 1995; is that fair? 23 A: Just looking here. 24 Q: Certainly. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And did you make any alterations, 5 deletions or -- or additions to any of those entries 6 since they were originally created? 7 A: No, I have not. 8 Q: I'd like to make this the next 9 exhibit, please. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1481, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1481: Document Number 2005416. 13 Handwritten notebook entries 14 of George Hebblethwaite, 15 September 05-07, 1995. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: And it would appear that this shift - 19 - your shift started at 4:00 a.m.; is that right? 20 A: That's correct. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And how much sleep had you had that 25 night?


1 A: Very little. 2 Q: So about two and a half (2 1/2) 3 hours, or something like that? 4 A: Approximately. 5 Q: All right. And who all attended -- 6 well, did you attend then at Forest Detachment at 7:05 or 7 thereabouts? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And who was present? 10 A: I have noted here that the Number 1 11 and Number 2 District ERT teams were present and just 12 going off duty. 13 The Number 3 District ERT team and 14 ourselves were arriving for the day shift. 15 Q: And this was at the Forest 16 Detachment? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Did you receive a -- a briefing at 19 that time as to what had occurred the prior night? 20 A: I don't recall specifically. 21 Q: All right. And at some point, did 22 you learn of the circumstances of the takeover, then? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what was your understanding of 25 the circumstances of the takeover of the Park?


1 A: That a number of our officers -- this 2 is after the Park had closed, and I believe all the 3 civilians that were in there had left. 4 That entry was made into the Park through 5 the cutting of the fence on the, I guess it would be the 6 east side of the Park. 7 There was some type of a confrontation 8 between a number of our officers and the persons that 9 were occupying the Park. 10 I was aware that one or more of our 11 cruisers was damaged in that process. And it was also my 12 understanding that at one point the trunk of a motor 13 vehicle of one of the occupiers was opened, and that 14 there was long guns seen in that trunk. 15 Q: All right. Do you have any 16 information about the use of any incendiary objects? 17 A: I don't recall that. 18 Q: All right. And were you provided 19 with any understanding as to what -- what the role of 20 your ERT Number 6 District would be for that day? 21 A: At this point it was a -- an enhanced 22 police presence in the area. My particular assignment 23 was for general roaming in the area, and to check in with 24 my officers that were based at checkpoints, do relieving 25 as -- as necessary and -- and provide whatever support I


1 could. 2 Q: All right. Fair enough. And had you 3 -- was there any mention or were you familiar with any -- 4 of any court process being contemplated or pursued at 5 this time, since September 5th? 6 A: On that date I -- I'm not sure -- 7 Q: All right. 8 A: -- if I knew then that an injunction 9 was being sought. 10 Q: Did -- did you become aware of that 11 prior to the evening of September the 6th? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: All right. And were you provided 14 with any information concerning the motivation or 15 possible motivation of the Park occupation at that time? 16 A: Just that it was claimed to belong to 17 the First Nations people. 18 Q: All right. All right. And was it 19 your task then that day, basically, to -- to go from 20 checkpoint to checkpoint at which your ERT team was 21 responsible? 22 A: I did that, yes. 23 Q: All right. To relieve them from time 24 to time? 25 A: If necessary, yes.


1 Q: All right. And did you learn 2 anything of particular significance over the course of 3 going to the checkpoints over the course of the day? 4 A: On the 5th I -- I have simply noted 5 here: "No contacts of note all day." 6 So that -- that would tell me that at the 7 time, when I made this entry, that there was nothing of 8 significance that I was aware of first hand, that I could 9 enter in my notebook, or did enter in my notebook at that 10 time. 11 Q: All right. And what was your 12 understanding of the purpose of these checkpoints? 13 A: Just to monitor the activity, to 14 monitor the types of vehicles and report and maintain a 15 log of the vehicles that were in the area, and a general 16 description, if possible, of the number of occupants, the 17 type of vehicle, the license plate, that type of thing. 18 It's an intelligence gathering activity. 19 Q: Yes. Okay. Thank you. 20 Commissioner, it is -- I observe that it's 21 eleven o'clock and as you know, the funeral of Officer 22 Don Atkinson is today, and there is a moment of silence, 23 I understand, commencing at 11:00 a.m. Province wide in 24 honour of the memory of this police officer, which it is 25 appropriate now to observe.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We should 2 honour that, observe now and then we'll take our break. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Observe a moment of 4 silence now, please. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Take a 6 moment of silence. 7 8 (MOMENT OF SILENCE) 9 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much. We'll take our morning break now? 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, I think so. Thank 14 you very much. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 16 our morning break now. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 11:01 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 11:18 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed, please be seated.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes...? 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: I just want to have a little bit 6 better understanding of the -- the purpose and -- of -- 7 of the checkpoints. 8 And in particular, what -- what 9 directions, if any, were you provided with with respect 10 to what type of intelligence, as you put it, your 11 officers were to be on the lookout for? 12 A: I can't recall specifically. 13 Q: All right. Now, have any -- okay. 14 What powers did your officers have with respect to 15 searching vehicles at these checkpoints? 16 A: There was no more authority than at - 17 - with regular patrol. 18 Q: So -- 19 A: If there was -- if there was reason 20 to present and to search a vehicle, you could, whether it 21 be there or whether it be anywhere; and if there wasn't, 22 you didn't. 23 Q: All right. So you had to have 24 reasonable grounds to conduct a search, there was no 25 special directive here?


1 A: Absolutely. 2 Q: And was there any special directive 3 with respect to -- or was there any obligation on the 4 part of the occupants of the vehicles to answer questions 5 posed by the officers? 6 A: Other than the statutory obligations, 7 no. 8 Q: Okay. And what -- what were those 9 statutory obligations? 10 A: Well, the driver, by law, is -- is 11 required to identify him or herself, and if asked by the 12 officer to -- to produce documents that -- of 13 registration of the vehicle and insurance. 14 Q: And the driver's licence? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And that's it, basically? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: All right. And was the documentation 19 or reports to be filed by your team members at the 20 conclusion of their shifts, with respect to any 21 significant occurrences or intelligence gathered by them 22 at the checkpoints? 23 A: That's my recollection. I -- I do 24 recall clipboards with -- with sheets on it for -- for 25 gathering information on motor vehicles that would go by.


1 This wasn't necessarily vehicles that were just stopped, 2 this could be vehicles passing by. 3 It was a matter of just gathering 4 information, which in -- in the police environment you 5 would call intelligence, but it was just information 6 gathering of what was happening in the area and -- and 7 who was there and - and that information could or could 8 not be ascertained by identifying vehicles that are 9 moving about in the area. 10 Q: And were there any directions or 11 guidelines as to exercising discretion as to which 12 vehicles would be stopped and which -- which would not be 13 stopped, as they went through a checkpoint? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. So all vehicles that went 16 by were to be stopped? 17 A: Maybe I misunderstood your question. 18 No, the vehicles weren't -- weren't -- they weren't 19 stopped, it was an observation checkpoint, it wasn't a 20 stop and search, open your trunk -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- item. It was an observation 23 checkpoint; that's as I recall them, yes. 24 Q: And do you recall anything of 25 particular significance occurring during the course of


1 your shift on the 5th, as you went from checkpoint to 2 checkpoint? 3 A: On September 5th, no. 4 Q: Okay. When were you off duty on that 5 day? If you look at page 29 of your notes. 6 A: Yes, I'm -- I'm here. 9:00 p.m. or 7 21:00 hours. 8 Q: All right. So you had an 9 approximately nineteen (19) hour shift that day? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: After about two and a half (2 1/2) 12 hours of sleep? 13 A: Seventeen (17) hours. 14 Q: Okay. Seventeen (17) hours? Thank 15 you. Moving then to September the 6th, 1995. And I 16 understand that you came on duty at 11:00 a.m.? 17 A: In the Ipperwash area, yes. 18 Q: All right. And you met with Sergeant 19 Huntley at about 11:30 a.m.? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And this is reflected at page 30 of 22 your notes, I believe, at Exhibit 1481? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. What was the purpose of 25 meeting with Sergeant Huntley?


1 A: Just to find out if there was 2 anything of import that I needed to know or -- or any -- 3 any changes in our assignments on that day. 4 Q: And were there either anything of 5 import, or was there a change in your assignment? 6 A: In terms of change of assignments, I 7 don't -- I don't believe there was. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: He advised me of an incident 10 involving picnic tables in the sandy parking lot adjacent 11 to the Provincial Park, at the end of Army Camp Road 12 where it meets East Parkway Drive. 13 Q: And just briefly, what was your 14 understanding of that occurrence? 15 A: There was a mass of picnic tables, 16 the numbers I don't know, but it sounded like it was 17 quite a few, that the ERT members earlier that morning 18 had removed those picnic tables from the area. 19 My understanding, from what he had said, 20 that there was also some type of a pushy, shovey 21 confrontation with the occupiers when these picnic tables 22 were removed. I've since come to understand that that -- 23 that understanding was incorrect. 24 Q: Okay. But that's the information you 25 had that morning?


1 A: That was my understanding that 2 morning, yes. 3 Q: All right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And is the 11:30 entry the last entry 8 that you created on September the 6th? 9 A: Yes, it is. 10 Q: And normally, what is your habit with 11 respect to the timing of making your notes in relation to 12 the events that are reflected by them? 13 A: More or less as they happen or -- or 14 as soon as practicable after. 15 Q: All right. Did you have any further 16 notations reflecting the subsequent events of the day, 17 which you wrote, concerning September the 6th? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. Did you maintain any 20 other form of note taking during the course of the day of 21 September the 6th, other than this notebook? 22 A: For certain, I don't recall. But I 23 suspect, based on some of the entries I did make, that I 24 -- I had a dash pad or a scribble pad that's in all the 25 cruisers.


1 Oftentimes it's used to jot down key times 2 or key words of -- of something, from which then, when 3 there's an opportunity, you would make out your notes. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: Not that those dash pad entries are 6 the total substance of your entry, but they -- they do 7 provide some specifics from which then I would build a 8 notebook entry. 9 Q: And typically what would happen with 10 those scratch pad notes? 11 A: They'd be thrown away. 12 Q: When? 13 A: I'm sorry? 14 Q: When -- when, normally, would they be 15 thrown away? 16 A: At the conclusion of the shift. 17 Q: And in this case, do you have any -- 18 did you happen to keep your scratch pad notes for the 5th 19 or 6th of September? 20 A: I'm not -- I'm not sure. 21 Q: Did you -- I'm asking if you kept 22 them today? 23 A: Oh, do I have them today? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: No.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: I don't believe I kept them -- if I 3 kept them past the evening of the 6th, it would have been 4 just for purposes of completing my notes on the 7th. 5 But I'm not sure if I had them at all. 6 Q: All right. Thank you. I wonder if 7 we would then move to Tab 10. This is Inquiry document 8 number 1002712. And you will see it's a continuation of 9 notes but -- of page 30 of your notebook, however, it is 10 entitled, "September 7, 1995." 11 Do you see the -- that entry? 12 A: Yes, I do. 13 Q: And... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Just for greater clarification 18 concerning the -- sorry, the scratch pad notes that you 19 may or may not have had that day. 20 What would your normal practice be in 21 relation to removal of those -- of those -- or access to 22 those notes? 23 A: In situations that I've jotted 24 something down -- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.


1 A: -- and if I don't do my notes entries 2 in the cruiser, oftentimes my practice is to tear them 3 off; they were a perforated small notepad. Tear off the 4 piece of paper, go into the -- into an office or the 5 Detachment and write my notes. 6 More from recollection, obviously, than -- 7 than using a note entry specifically to address maybe a 8 time that I jotted down of arrival at a scene, or the 9 time of an event, or a licence plate of a call. That's 10 all they would do. 11 Q: And once you've transferred, or at 12 least completed your notebook entry, what would you 13 typically do with that scratch pad note? 14 A: Throw them in the garbage. 15 Q: All right. Now just moving back now 16 to the entries that you created on September the 7th, 17 starting at page 30 of this document, Inquiry Document 18 1002712. 19 First of all, can you tell me when you 20 create -- first of all, what -- what did they relate to; 21 the entries that you created on September the 7th at 22 pages 30 and forward? 23 A: Yes. I -- I have them. They relate 24 to incidents that occurred starting in the afternoon of 25 September 6th and finishing up in the early morning hours


1 of September 7th. 2 Q: And particular, last entry is -- it 3 looks like 03:95, so it's -- sorry, 03:45, is it? On 4 page 48 of September -- and that's September the 7th. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. When did you create these 7 notes? 8 A: It was in the morning, I believe I 9 started around ten o'clockish, 10:30 on September 7th, 10 and it took me -- it was after one o'clock in the 11 afternoon when I finished. 12 Q: All right. And obviously those would 13 of reflected the occurrences up to, then, one o'clock or 14 thereabouts? 15 A: Well the notes that I made on the 16 7th, as they related to the 6th -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- during that timeline, it was my 19 notes -- 20 Q: Oh yes, okay. 21 A: -- up until 3:45 in the morning on 22 the 7th. 23 Q: Sorry, thank you very much. Fair 24 enough. And can you tell us why it is that you did not 25 create your notes relating to the afternoon and the


1 evening of September the 6th, and the early morning hours 2 of September the 7th, until Septem -- later in the day on 3 September the 7th? 4 A: Well I was exhausted. We had been 5 through a very traumatic event. I wanted to get -- take 6 some time to get my mind clear as I could on what had 7 transpired, and allowing myself to be as detailed as 8 possible. 9 Q: Do you have any recollection today 10 what you did between approximately 11:30 in the morning, 11 after the briefing with Sergeant Huntley, to 16:15 hours 12 in the afternoon, which is the next recorded entry for 13 September 6th, albeit created September the 7th. 14 IN other words, what did you do between 15 11:30 and 4:15 in the afternoon? 16 A: I don't recall specifically. 17 Q: Do you have a general sense as to 18 what your tasks were? 19 A: It would have been similar to the day 20 before, general roaming, checking on my officers at the 21 various checkpoints. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: I -- I -- and then the events that 24 took place later on in the afternoon I -- I made notation 25 of that.


1 Q: Yes, and we'll -- we'll get to that 2 in a minute. I'm interested up to 4:15. And do you 3 recall there, being apprised of any significant 4 information or making any significant observations or 5 findings between 11:30 in the morning and 4:15 in the 6 afternoon on September the 6th? 7 A: No, I do not. 8 Q: All right. Do you recall having a 9 conversation, a telephone conversation with Ed Roberts at 10 approximately 14 -- sorry, Ed Robertson at approximately 11 14:39 in the afternoon of September the 6th? 12 A: I don't recall it but I have seen the 13 transcript. 14 Q: All right. Who was Ed Robertson? 15 A: He was Inspector at General 16 Headquarters and he co-ordinated the Emergency Response 17 Team program at the time. 18 Q: All right. And I wonder if you would 19 please turn to Tab 9. This is a transcript entitled, 20 "Region One, George Hebblethwaite, Ed Robertson, 21 September 6th, 1995, 14:39 Hours, Mobile Command Unit, 22 OPP Logger Tape Number 3, Track 1, Disk 2 of 3." 23 And just take a moment, please, to play 24 that recording, and then I'll have a couple of followup 25 questions for you. And you might follow along in the


1 transcript, please. 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 5 6 GH = Sergeant George Hebblethwaite] 7 [ER = Ed Robertson] 8 9 GH: Command Post, Sergeant Hebblethwaite. 10 ER: Georgie. 11 GH: Yeah. 12 ER: Ed. 13 GH: Yes. How are you? 14 ER: Fine. 15 GH: What can I do for you? 16 ER: I need the word spread quietly. 17 GH: Yes? 18 ER: And I need to find out who has previous 19 experience operating a Bear on rubber 20 tires. 21 GH: A which, sir? 22 ER: Who may have had military experience or 23 who are currently serving in the militia 24 and have experience operating an armoured 25 personnel vehicle.


1 GH: Oh. APC. Okay. 2 ER: Okay? 3 GH: Hm-mmm. 4 ER: You can share that with John Carson. 5 GH: Yes. 6 ER: I need it quickly. But I need it, more 7 importantly, very quietly. 8 GH: Okay. All right. It's just an APC, eh? 9 ER: Yeah. 10 GH: You'd describe it as a Bear? 11 ER: No. A Grizzly. 12 GH: A Grizzly? Oh, Jesus Christ. Hey, 13 listen. I got just the driver for you. 14 He works in Meaford, wild as a shit-rat. 15 Okay. I'll pass the word. The 16 Inspector's on the line right now with the 17 AG's office. 18 ER: Okay. 19 GH: So I'll pass to him as soon as he's off. 20 ER: You can tell John the reason this . and 21 why it has to be quiet, is the official 22 request hasn't gone anywhere yet. 23 GH: Hm-mmm. 24 ER: But it's a four-day refresher . inaudible. 25 In background: "I think because of what


1 happened last night, this picnic table 2 shit. We haven't got a ... inaudible. 3 GH: Hm-mmm. 4 ER: Okay. 5 GH: All right. 6 ER: So if there is anybody on the four ERT 7 teams, you've got 1,3,5, and 6 . or 1, 3, 8 2, and 6 one of them. 9 GH: Yeah. Hm-mmm. 10 ER: They would prefer somebody from the ERT 11 first. 12 GH: Yeah. 13 ER: Okay? 14 GH: Okay. 15 ER: If you could pass the word just quietly 16 and tell everybody to keep it shut. 17 GH: Yes, exactly. 18 ER: Okay, George. 19 GH: No problem, sir. 20 ER: Thanks. 21 GH: Bye. 22 ER: Bye. 23 24 End of conversation 25


1 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: All right. Now, first of all, did 5 you recognize your -- your voice? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: And is it appropriately attributed 8 as, or identified as "GH" on the transcript? 9 A: Yes, it is. 10 Q: And did you recognize the voice of -- 11 of Ed Robertson? 12 A: Vaguely. 13 Q: Vaguely? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And is it appropriately 16 identified with "ER"? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there -- can you just tell us, 19 very briefly, what -- what was your understanding of the 20 nature of the request by Ed Robertson? 21 A: More or less exactly as it's laid out 22 here, that he wanted me to attempt to locate a member 23 with the experience to operate a -- an all -- armoured 24 personnel vehicle. 25 Q: All right. And he says, repeatedly,


1 that he wants the word spread quietly, and to keep it 2 very quietly. And I -- I -- can you explain how you 3 understood that and the purpose for -- for that request, 4 or behind that request? 5 A: Well it wasn't for general 6 consumption, and to do it discreetly. 7 Q: All right. Did you -- okay. And did 8 you understand why it needed to be done discreetly? 9 A: No. But that's what I was asked to 10 do. 11 Q: All right. On page 2 he indicates 12 why it has to be quiet, as the official request hasn't 13 gone anywhere yet. 14 Does that refresh your memory? 15 A: Yes. But I still didn't understand 16 why it had to be done quietly. 17 Q: Okay. Okay. Fair enough. And did - 18 - did you have any understanding as to what the purpose 19 of, or what use the armoured personnel vehicle was to be 20 made of? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Or whether it was to be -- was part 23 of the Project Maple Operation request? 24 A: No, I didn't know. 25 Q: Did you relay this message to


1 Inspector Carson? 2 A: I'm sure I did. 3 Q: Do you recall his response? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. I'd like to make the 6 transcript the next exhibit please? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1482, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1482: Transcript of Region 01, 10 George Hebblethwaite - Ed 11 Robertson, September 06, 12 1995, 14:39 hrs, Mobile 13 Command Unit, Logger tape 14 number 3, Track 1, Disc 2 of 15 3. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: And the accompanying -- accompanying 19 audio CD or DVD the next exhibit? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1483, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1483: Hebblethwaite audio disc. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: Thank you. Do you recall any --


1 being involved in any follow-up discussions or pursuits 2 in relation to this request, or any armoured personnel 3 vehicle? 4 A: I may well have, but I -- I can't be 5 sure. 6 Q: All right. Now, if we go forward 7 then to Tab 10, and these are your notes that -- made 8 September the 7th, 1995, Inquiry Document 1002712. 9 The first entry appears to be at 16:15, 10 and the last entry 03:45. And we should make that the 11 next exhibit. I think I neglected to. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1484, Your Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1484. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1484: Document Number 1002712. 16 Handwritten notebook entries 17 of George Hebblethwaite, 18 September 07, 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: And looking at your entry at 16:15, 22 can you tell us where you were at this time? 23 A: Well I indicate in my notes I was at 24 the Lima 2 command post. 25 Q: And was that also known as the TOC


1 site? 2 A: I believe so, yes. 3 Q: It was the MNR parking lot, off East 4 Parkway Drive? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And what information did 7 you receive at this time? 8 A: We -- I was informed that the, as it 9 was then known, the batmobile, was stuck on the beach in 10 the public access area. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: In the Port Franks area. 13 Q: And what did you do as a result of 14 receiving this information? 15 A: I was asked to arrange to have 16 officers attend, I myself included. I left with 17 Constable Dave Hall in my unit, and we proceeded over to 18 the -- to the area of the Port Franks beach area. 19 Q: What, if anything, did you find when 20 you arrived? 21 A: We saw nothing. 22 Q: All right. And then at 16:50, where 23 did you go? 24 A: I was at Checkpoint Delta at that 25 point.


1 Q: Do you recall where Checkpoint Delta 2 was located at that time? 3 A: I think it was at the top of army -- 4 Army Camp Road near Highway 21, but I -- I can't be 5 certain. If you have a map with checkpoints on it, it 6 would refresh me. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: We'll -- we'll provide you with a 11 copy of that map. Just give us a second. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Just put it on the screen for you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And this is a copy of a checkpoint 20 map that was prepared, I believe, by the OPP. And if you 21 take your laser pointer you might point out the location, 22 approximately, of Checkpoint Delta; whether that accords 23 with your recollection -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: That's --


1 A: The -- 2 Q: -- East Parkway Drive? 3 A: Yes. Yes. 4 Q: And Checkpoint Delta would be along 5 Army Camp Road and it's shown there at being at the edge 6 of the built up area Is that the approximate location 7 that you recall? 8 A: Yes. It was at -- near the 9 intersection with -- with Highway 21. 10 Q: All right. Thank you. All right. 11 And what, if any, information of significance did you 12 learn when you went to the Checkpoint Delta? 13 A: Nothing that I recall, but I have 14 noted that I had received a radio request to have a 15 couple of units remain in the Port Franks area in case 16 the -- the car that we had been looking for returned. 17 Q: All right. And at 17:25 you have a - 18 - you have a further entry. Are you still at Checkpoint 19 Delta at this time? 20 A: Excuse me. No, I -- it was myself 21 and Constable Hall and another unit that I believe was 22 Constables York and Sharp. We returned to the area of 23 Port Franks looking for the -- the vehicle. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: I recall speaking to a homeowner in


1 that area and using binoculars. He offered us 2 binoculars. I remember looking down the beach area. 3 And I have noted that I saw a white motor 4 vehicle, a Camaro on the beach, with -- with some people 5 by it. 6 Also -- it was also at this time that I 7 observed a -- the yellow MNR helicopter hovering up over 8 the base and Park area, which would be to my west. 9 Q: Okay. And just for clarification, 10 that's still at the 16:50 entry, right? 11 A: Yes. It's all in that time line. 12 Q: Right. All right. And then moving 13 on to the 17:25 entry. 14 A: Excuse me. 15 Q: What of significance happened at that 16 time? 17 A: I was just leaving the Port Franks 18 area and I met up with acting Detective Staff Sergeant 19 Wright and he -- he advised me that he had been sent to 20 speak to a citizen group, a rally that was reported to be 21 gathering in the Port Franks area. 22 I told him that we had just been there, 23 actually twice, and that we had -- we had seen no sign of 24 a -- of a large gathering of people. 25 Q: All right. And what, if anything,


1 did you do after that? 2 A: I was down to Checkpoint Charlie. 3 Q: All right. And perhaps we could just 4 put that map back on. Do you recall the location of 5 Checkpoint Charlie? 6 A: It was on Army Camp Road, south of 7 the junction with East Parkway Drive. Yes, right here. 8 Q: All right. And just for the record, 9 this is Exhibit 1284. Okay. And what, if anything, did 10 you learn when you went to Checkpoint Charlie? 11 A: There was a local woman drove up and, 12 excuse me again, spoke to me. She was telling me that 13 there -- there was indeed a rally happening just around 14 the corner in the parkette off of East Parkway Drive, 15 which is the MNR parking lot area. 16 Q: Yes, okay. 17 A: I went over there and I saw 18 approximately thirty (30) adult men and women, they were 19 standing together in the lot near our TOC vehicle, our CP 20 -- Command Post, sorry. Acting Detective Staff 21 Sergeant -- 22 Q: Were they actually outside in the 23 parking lot? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: They were -- they were near the 2 trailer, as I recall. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: Acting Detective Staff Sergeant 5 Wright attended and he -- he took charge of dealing with 6 -- with the people. 7 Q: And was Detective Sergeant Wright 8 already there when you arrived or -- or did he arrive 9 subsequently? 10 A: He arrived subsequently. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I then left and went to Checkpoint 13 Alpha, which was at the junction of East Parkway Drive 14 and Army Camp Road. 15 Q: All right. Just before we get to 16 that, though, what was your observations of -- in terms 17 of the -- the mood of the group or the crowd that you saw 18 in the MNR parking lot when you arrived? 19 A: I made some observations later when I 20 returned but they were -- they would have been 21 consistent, there as a mood of unease, a mood of anxiety, 22 a mood of wanting police to -- to do something. There 23 was a mood -- a mood of fear amongst the group. 24 Q: Were any of the group members or 25 crowd members -- did -- did any of them carry any type of


1 objects, signs, banners, sticks; anything like that? 2 A: I don't recall anything like that. 3 Q: Do you recall there being a 4 spokesperson? 5 A: I believe on my return there was -- 6 if I can find it in my notes here, I seem to recall there 7 was a -- a man and a woman seemed to be doing the 8 majority of the talking. If you give me a moment I'll 9 look for that. 10 Q: Okay. Certainly. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: I believe that that's at page 32 of 15 your notes at 18:30, perhaps? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that's after you had gone to 18 Checkpoint Alpha? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And -- and I -- and I interrupted 21 your chronology. What -- what did you observe at 22 Checkpoint Alpha? 23 A: Well, there was a media person there 24 with a camera, and of course there were ERT members 25 stationed at the checkpoint.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: There was a group of First Nations 3 people in the Park, on the Park side of the fence. There 4 were two (2) sitting on a bench or a picnic table. There 5 were large mirrors, approximately 2 foot by 3 foot, were 6 being used to reflect sunlight in the direction of the 7 checkpoint. 8 Other persons standing there were holding 9 bats, clubs, wooden sticks, and there was some taunting 10 and some gestures. 11 Q: And how far away, approximately, from 12 the Park fence boundary was Checkpoint Alpha? 13 A: I haven't measured it. 14 Q: All right. Perhaps we could put that 15 map back on. 16 Is it at the corner of East Parkway Drive 17 and the -- and Army Camp Road, approximately? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. So basically across the 20 sandy parking lot? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Okay. Go ahead. 23 A: And that was basically the extent of 24 what I noted from that encounter. 25 Q: All right. And after that you


1 returned you said to the MNR parking lot or the TOC site? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And was the rally still ongoing? 4 A: Acting Detective Staff Sergeant 5 Wright was still talking with the group, yes. 6 Q: And what else did you observe then? 7 Had the mood changed at all? 8 A: It -- certainly, sorry -- the mood 9 had not changed. I -- I have noted here I spoke and I do 10 recall speaking with a woman seated in a van. She was 11 there with her daughter. 12 She told me some things that had been 13 happening at her workplace, some intimidation. There had 14 been allegedly threatening phone calls received by her 15 boss over the planned rally, threats to do her harm and 16 burn down her property. 17 I told this woman that we needed to be 18 patient and to take all reasonable steps to avoid a 19 confrontation. I told her at this point that a court 20 injunction was in the works. 21 So clearly I -- I had knowledge by this 22 point that this in fact was the case. And again, that 23 everyone involved needed to remain calm. 24 Q: And how -- how in your view did she 25 take that advice? Or receive it at least?


1 A: My general sense is that it was taken 2 as it was given. Well intentioned. 3 Q: And you indicated that there were one 4 (1) or two (2) spokespersons that you identified at the 5 rally? 6 A: That's my recollection. It -- it was 7 a couple, possibly a husband and wife that seemed to be 8 the most vocal and the people that most were interacting 9 with Wright. 10 Q: And based on what you saw and heard, 11 what message if any was being, in your view, delivered to 12 Sergeant Wright? 13 A: Much as what I've just said to the 14 woman individually. 15 Q: All right. And how long did you stay 16 at the parking lot? 17 A: From my notes, approximately 7:20 18 p.m. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: All right. And -- sorry. When you 23 left the scene, what was the -- the state of the 24 situation? 25 A: Well, it was very clear to me that --


1 that the residents wanted us to do something. They 2 wanted the situation brought under control. 3 My -- my sense is that it was -- what 4 happened that morning with the picnic tables and what had 5 happened in the course of the day or so prior to that, 6 was creating a lot of anxiety for the residents of East 7 Parkway Drive and the immediate area. 8 And my sense was that in their eyes, not 9 enough was being done by the police. And that at this 10 point it was up to us to try and allay their concerns to 11 make sure that they were aware that we weren't simply 12 doing nothing. That we were in the process of dealing 13 with the situation in the most prudent fashion we could. 14 Q: And just -- in terms of the -- the 15 training manual that we went through yesterday and today, 16 did you assess or categorize this crowd in accordance 17 with one (1) of those four (4) categories that you -- you 18 discussed? 19 A: I didn't at the time but I probably 20 could now. 21 Q: You didn't -- why didn't you at the 22 time? 23 A: I didn't. 24 Q: All right. Did you see any potential 25 threat being posed by the citizens here or this group?


1 A: No. No, I did not. 2 Q: Was there any -- did you develop any 3 impression that -- that they were going to or 4 contemplating taking matters into their own hands? 5 A: That was my sense of it. There was 6 some desperation, a desperation in the air at the time. 7 Q: And how would that then not pose a -- 8 a threat to the public safety? 9 A: At the immediate time it didn't, no. 10 But my sense was that this may be evolving if -- if 11 things continued in their view unabated. 12 Q: And why did you leave the site at 13 approximately 7:35 p.m.? 14 A: I left approximately 7:20. Two (2) 15 different ERT teams attended the area to relieve the day 16 shift, so our shift was ending. 17 Q: Did you have at any point in time 18 were you concerned that you and Sergeant Wright might 19 lose control of this crowd? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Why not? 22 A: Because I didn't. 23 Q: All right. And when you left the 24 scene, was the crowd still expressing its views to 25 Detective Wright, or Sergeant Wright?


1 A: I can't be certain if they were still 2 there or not. My sense is they had left but I can't be 3 certain. 4 Q: All right. And where did you go 5 after leaving then the TOC site? 6 A: I returned to the Forest Detachment 7 and arrived there at 7:35 p.m., approximately. 8 Q: And were you briefed at that time by 9 Sergeant Korosec? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: You recall, first of all, what the 12 content of that brief -- briefing was? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you receive any information that 15 time with respect to the possible deployment of the Crowd 16 Management Unit? 17 A: It was shortly thereafter -- after 18 there was -- I have noted that there was a -- that 19 Sergeant Korosec read out brief notes and then he spoke 20 of some new equipment that was going to be issued. A -- 21 Nomex fire retardant suits and ASP batons and capsicum or 22 pepper foggers were -- were to be issued. 23 Q: All right. And this is reflected at 24 page 33 of your notes? 25 A: That's correct, it is.


1 We were still there when Sergeant Graham 2 came in and was speaking with Sergeant Korosec about a 3 just-occurring incident at the Park. 4 Q: And what -- what did you overhear 5 about that? 6 A: I don't know that I heard specifics 7 at that very moment but I -- I understand that it 8 involved damage to a -- a motor vehicle in the area of 9 the junction of East Parkway Drive and the Army Camp 10 Road. 11 Q: Any more specifics as to who was 12 involved and what occurred? 13 A: There was an additional gathering of 14 individuals at the Park directly across from the 15 Checkpoint Alpha site which is again, that junction. 16 There was people gathering more so than 17 what had been there previous. 18 Q: And did that cause you any concern 19 from a public or a police safety perspective, this new 20 information? 21 A: Well, it certainly sounded like a 22 build up. 23 Q: All right. Now did Sergeant Korosec 24 also advise you that amongst the new equipment that would 25 be issued were capisum -- scum -- I hope I'm pronouncing


1 it right. Capsicum foggers? 2 A: Capsicum foggers. 3 Q: Capsicum, yeah. 4 A: That's pepper spray but it's a fogger 5 as opposed to what each member carries on their belt for 6 deploying against a single individual. 7 These were foggers capable of being 8 deployed in a broader area. 9 Q: And had you or any members of your 10 ERT team to your knowledge, ever had occasion to use 11 either the foggers or the ASP batons? 12 A: Well, the ASP baton was -- was new 13 equipment. 14 Q: Right. 15 A: Was being used. Some members had -- 16 may have had knowledge of it, because it was equipment 17 that was available privately. 18 I have no knowledge on that and -- but as 19 far as the capsicum foggers, I'm aware of it through 20 crowd management training. I know of other equipment 21 that -- that's available. I've seen it. 22 But we don't have it as issue just yet, so 23 I have exposure to other types of equipment. I'm fairly 24 sure that I had seen capsicum foggers prior to -- to this 25 date --


1 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: --but it was not general issue yet 3 for -- for crowd management with the OPP. 4 Q: Okay. And -- 5 A: The manner in which it is deployed is 6 -- is quite easy and the time that it would be deployed 7 would be quite similar to when you would deploy your 8 personal issue. 9 So in terms of the use of force continuum, 10 really no change for -- for that equipment. 11 Q: All right. And as a result of this 12 information you received from Sergeant Korosec, what, if 13 anything, did you do with it? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Just before I -- I get on to that, I 18 -- I could speak to the ASP baton that was issued to us, 19 if you like. 20 Q: I think you've explained it before, 21 but sure, why -- 22 A: Yeah, it was issued -- 23 Q: -- what would you like to add? 24 A: -- to the Members at this point and 25 in-service training, Sergeant Grant just showed us how to


1 open it as I demonstrated here earlier this morning -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- and how to close it. And other 4 than that the -- the basic deployment of that use of 5 force equipment is the same as -- as the hickory stick. 6 Q: All right. So just to understand, 7 was all of your ERT Number 6 team present at this time? 8 A: All but one (1) member, yes. 9 Q: And they receive them for the first 10 time an ASP baton and the extent of the demonstration or 11 training that they received at that time was how to open 12 and close it? 13 A: Open and close and I believe he took 14 apart the handle to -- to show us the metal clip inside 15 which helps increase or decrease the tension. 16 Q: All right. Was there any discussion 17 about the composition of the ASP baton or its 18 capabilities? 19 A: Well, the composition was quite 20 obviously metal as compared to hickory wood. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: It's capabilities, it's directly no, 23 and it's simply capable of the same use of force as the 24 baton. 25 Q: But at the time you -- you were


1 receiving it that night there was no discussion so you're 2 assuming that it has the same capabilities? 3 A: Absolutely. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: It was about this time just after 6 these items were issued to us that we were informed that 7 we needed to get ready to go into Crowd Management hard 8 TAC. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: Myself and Officer Weverink drove 11 back to the -- our accommodations in Grand Bend. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: And I -- we retrieved our Crowd 14 Management equipment at that point. 15 Q: And just before that -- you left did 16 you learn anything at this briefing regarding the 17 deployment of an Oscar team? 18 A: I don't believe so, no. 19 Q: All right. Were you aware of what an 20 Oscar team was? 21 A: I have recollections of what -- some 22 of our -- a couple of our members on the beach near the - 23 - near the Park. I have an independent recollection that 24 it involved -- John Spencer was one (1) of -- one (1) of 25 the officers.


1 Q: Yes? 2 A: There was reports of a very large 3 bonfire, I recall that, in that immediate area. It 4 wasn't clear if it was in the public access area or -- or 5 within the confines of the Park itself. 6 Q: And did you learn anything else of 7 significance in terms of events of the afternoon or early 8 evening? 9 A: Excuse me. At that point no. 10 Q: All right. In any event you 11 indicated that next you returned to Grand Bend to -- to 12 obtain your hard TAC? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So -- 15 A: That's the -- 16 Q: So then -- I'm sorry. So then you 17 were obviously apprised that this was going to be a 18 certain type of mission, is that not fair? 19 A: No, we were asked to be prepared to 20 deploy. It doesn't mean we're going to be deployed but 21 we were asked to be prepared to go. 22 And due to the circumstances of that day 23 my equipment was in Grand Bend as opposed to in Forest as 24 was Constable Weverink's. So we -- we returned 25 immediately, we retrieved our equipment bags, and came


1 back to the Forest Detachment. 2 Q: All right. And according to your 3 notes at page 33 you left the Forest Detachment -- or you 4 left the motel to return to the Forest Detachment at 5 about 20:27 and at 20:40 you arrived back at the Forest 6 Detachment with your hard TAC gear? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: All right. I just note that it's 9 noon and perhaps this would be an appropriate time to 10 break for lunch? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you want 12 a break now, we'll break now. Yes, we'll break for 13 lunch. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think it would be 15 appropriate. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 18 adjourned until 1:00 p.m. 19 20 --- Upon recessing at 12:02 p.m. 21 --- Upon resuming at 1:04 p.m. 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 24 resumed, please be seated. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good afternoon.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 2 afternoon. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: We were at Tab 10, which is Exhibit 6 1484, page 33 of your police notes of the events of 7 September the 6th, 1995. And when we left -- you had 8 advised that at 20:40 p.m., September the 6th, you 9 returned to Forest with your hard TAC kit; is that right? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: All right. And when you arrived at 12 the Forest Detachment, who all were there? 13 A: It was the members of the Number 3 14 and Number 6 District ERT teams. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: At the back of the office there were 17 Command Officers elsewhere, out of my view. 18 Q: All right. Did you observe any 19 number os TRU at that time? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: All right. Did you suit up in your 22 Crowd Management uniform and equipment? 23 A: Yes. I put on the protective 24 padding. I -- I didn't have my helmet on at that point. 25 Q: All right. And you've indicated that


1 this was the hard TAC uniform that you've -- that you've 2 already described earlier. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And were all members of the ERT -- 5 two (2) ERT teams in hard TAC? 6 A: At that point, as I recall, yes. 7 Q: Who was the designated team leader or 8 Incident Commander for that -- for the CMU that night? 9 A: That night it was Acting -- or sorry, 10 Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix. 11 Q: And who called out the CMU that 12 night? 13 A: Well Sergeant Korosec asked us to 14 prepare for that. 15 Q: On behalf of...? 16 A: I believe it was Inspector Carson. I 17 -- I'm not totally sure. 18 Q: All right. What was your designation 19 that night? 20 A: I was the Second in Charge of the 21 Unit next to Staff Sergeant Lacroix. 22 Q: All right. And so were you his 23 partner, if you will, for the duration of that night? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: The two (2) of you were to stay


1 together, more or less? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And was Sergeant Lacroix 4 -- or Lacroix there when you arrived? 5 A: No. He arrived approximately 9:10 6 p.m. 7 Q: And what, if anything, did you do in 8 his absence? 9 A: In the -- in the time before he 10 arrived, excuse me, I had -- I had gathered the members 11 of the Number 3 and Number 6 District ERT team together. 12 I had gone over a number of routines and - 13 - and orders and formations with the members; just a bit 14 of a rehash. As an instructor it just seemed to be the 15 obvious thing to do. 16 Q: All right. So you went through some 17 of the -- the commands, formations, so that -- to ensure 18 that your team remembered them -- 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: -- so to speak? 21 A: I just went over them. Most of us 22 are -- yes, I believe all of us had worked since very 23 early that morning. Now we're getting into hour fourteen 24 (14) of the day, and -- and then some, depending what 25 time people were up that morning.


1 So it was -- it was a recap of -- of what 2 we had done, or what we were trained to do. Some -- not 3 everything, obviously, but some of the more important 4 things that I felt we -- we should be touching base on, 5 considering that we may be going down the road and 6 engaging some people that night. 7 Q: And at -- at this stage, then, in the 8 process prior to Staff Sergeant Lacroix coming, were you 9 -- were you aware that your team was going to be deployed 10 down East Parkway Drive that night? 11 A: No. That decision hadn't been made 12 known to us at that point. We were simply told to be 13 ready. 14 Q: All right. And once Staff Sergeant 15 Lacroix arrived at about 9:10 p.m., was there a briefing 16 of the two (2) ERT teams by him? 17 A: Immediately, no. I had conversation 18 with him, just bringing him up-to-date, up to speed as to 19 what I had just finished doing with the group telling him 20 what -- that we had designated Contact Squad, left cover, 21 right cover, Arrest or Support Squad. 22 Q: Did you receive any instructions from 23 him at that point? 24 A: On the initial meeting, no. 25 Q: All right. What happened next then?


1 A: I've noted here a command staff 2 decision was made that our mission was to secure the 3 public road allowance area adjacent to Ipperwash Park. 4 We were not, and that was very clear, were 5 not to go into the Park. If met with resistance persons 6 would be arrested for any number of offences and the 7 authorities could include -- and I had listed a bunch of 8 authorities for that. 9 Q: Mischief? 10 A: Yes, mischief -- 11 Q: Unlawful assembly? 12 A: Unlawful assembly, assault police 13 officer, possession of weapons dangerous, and others. 14 Q: All right. And this is found in your 15 notation at page 34 -- 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: -- at the bottom? All right. And 18 who communicated the command staff decision? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: All right. Did you receive any other 21 instructions or -- or were you privy to any other 22 instructions about the planned mission aside from the end 23 objective? 24 A: At that stage, no. 25 Q: All right. What did you do next


1 then? 2 A: Myself and the Staff Sergeant Lacroix 3 drove to the MNR parkette on East Parkway Drive. 4 Q: All right. And at this point in time 5 did you know that the TRU team was also to -- going to be 6 deployed? 7 A: I believe at this point, yes. 8 Q: All right. And did you understand 9 what the purpose of the TRU team deployment was -- was to 10 be? 11 A: If not on the way down, shortly 12 thereafter I would have been aware that they were being 13 deployed as, excuse me, as eyes in the area and they're - 14 - they are to counter sniper -- in case there's firearms 15 they would be capable to support us and -- and back us 16 up. 17 Q: All right. And on your way down to 18 the -- the TOC site then did you hear any radio 19 communications of relevance? 20 A: Yes, I -- I heard a number of radio 21 transmissions and I -- I made note of them; reports of -- 22 the largeness of the bonfire in the area of the sandy 23 parking lot and/or the -- the Park; reports of people 24 around these fires with bats and clubs; and a car had 25 come down and dropped off a load of clubs and sticks and


1 other potential projectiles. 2 There was additional radio reports that I 3 heard that indicated that the women and children that 4 were known to be living and staying in the Park were 5 apparently being evacuated. There was a clear to sense 6 to me that this was in preparation or anticipation of a 7 confrontation by the occupiers. 8 Q: And a confrontation of whom? 9 A: The occupiers against us. 10 Q: All right. I also heard multiple 11 radio reports from the checkpoints, primarily Delta which 12 was near Highway 21 off of Army Camp Road that there were 13 vehicle loads of people apparently ready to do battle; 14 clubs, bats, sticks, golf clubs were being seized. 15 There was additional personnel dispatched 16 to Checkpoint Delta. That's more or less the extent of 17 the radio information that I heard on the way down. 18 Q: And how if, at all, did this impact 19 on your assessment of -- of the risk to public safety and 20 police safety? 21 A: Well, it was -- it was clear to me 22 that in all probability we were going to end up in a 23 confrontation that night. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: At least the groundwork was being


1 laid for that. It certainly wasn't my desire for that to 2 happen and it certainly wasn't my desire to be there at 3 that time but it was my duty. 4 Q: All right. But it became an 5 expectation at this point? 6 A: I -- I certainly believed it was a 7 distinct possibility, yes. 8 Q: More than a possibility? 9 A: Well, it wasn't a for sure thing, so 10 less than that. 11 Q: All right. And your -- your -- the 12 content of these radio communications are found at about 13 page 36 of your notes? 14 A: Yes, they are. 15 Q: And if you go back one (1) page, to 16 page 35, this is still while your en route with Staff 17 Sergeant Lacroix to the TOC. 18 Did you have a discussion with him? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And can you tell us what the content 21 of that discussion was? 22 A: More or less, as the best I could, 23 describe for him the sandy parking lot at the bottom of 24 Army Camp Road. 25 Explained to him that from my experience,


1 having been there on and off throughout the previous 2 month, that there was, in fact, artificial lighting at 3 the south end of the sandy parking lot where it meets the 4 roadway. 5 I -- the lighting, I wasn't totally sure 6 where it was coming from, but there was artificial 7 lighting in there. I -- I had clear recollection of 8 that. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: And that was -- that and just simply 13 discussing with him some of the commands again. I would 14 have gone over that with him because he wasn't there when 15 we did the review with the officers behind the -- behind 16 the Forest Detachment. 17 Q: All right. And I see on page 35 of 18 your note that there is a -- a diagram? 19 A: Yes, I have. 20 Q: Can you just tell me, first of all, 21 what was the purpose of drawing that diagram and then 22 identify what you're depicting there? 23 A: It depicts the sandy parking lot 24 area. And I -- I've drawn a bit of a circle with a -- 25 some lines through it to denote, in general terms, the


1 area that was -- I knew to be lit by artificial lighting. 2 So the entire area leading down to the 3 waterfront, which would be to the north, wasn't lit. But 4 certainly the ground that existed, in what turned out to 5 the be area of -- of conflict, was subject to artificial 6 lighting, prior to the night of September 6th. 7 Q: All right. And what was the purpose 8 of putting this into your notes? 9 A: The purpose was that on the night of 10 September 6th there was no lighting. That artificial 11 lighting had been disabled; it was not functioning. 12 Q: All right. And just -- just for the 13 record, at the top of the diagram you've got a notation 14 that that's where the Park is? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: To the left, there's wavy lines. Is 17 that the lake? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: And across from the Park I see a 20 house, a couple of trees? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And East Parkway Drive? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And to the right of the page is the 25 bend in the road and Army Camp Road?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then you've told us the circle 3 with the lines through was the lighted area? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what is the -- there's a circle 6 with an 'X' in the top right hand corner of the diagram. 7 Is that -- does that say turnstile? 8 A: Yes, it does. 9 Q: And is that the turnstile out of the 10 Park? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Okay. And then there's a line from 13 the bottom left corner going straight up and there's a -- 14 writing that's almost as good as mine. 15 A: It's my initials. 16 Q: It's your initials? 17 A: Yes, it is. 18 Q: Thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Now, you said that by this point in 23 time you know that the TRU is going to be deployed for 24 both observation and cover purposes? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And how many -- how many officers are 2 being deployed in the CMU? 3 A: There would have been thirty-two (32) 4 of us, myself and Staff Sergeant Lacroix included. And 5 then there was an additional eight (8) officers assigned 6 as arrest teams in behind the original crowd management 7 unit. 8 There was also two (2) K-9 officers. 9 There was also two (2) vans, prisoner vans, operated by a 10 constable in each van. 11 Q: All right. So you have a -- a larger 12 than normal -- usual, if you will, complement for the 13 CMU? It's normally thirty-two (32) people, you said, and 14 it's been expanded to forty (40) for this deployment. 15 A: On this deployment, yes. 16 Q: You're in hard TAC equipment? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: As opposed to soft TAC. And you have 19 the associated baton, pepper spray, helmets with visor, 20 shields, all of the standard complement of the hard TAC-- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- uniforms? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And what, if anything, did you 25 conclude about the nature of the crowd that you were


1 about to encounter based on these -- the attributes of -- 2 of what -- of the team that was being deployed? 3 I mean, the fact that it's hard TAC, the 4 fact you've got TRU there, the fact that you have forty 5 (40) member of CMU, what did that tell you about the 6 potential of the situation? 7 A: Clearly it was -- was a dangerous 8 situation with potential for violence and therefore we 9 were equipped accordingly. 10 Q: And did the fact that the TRU team 11 was there as potential cover, not just as eyes, but as 12 potential cover, tell you that there was a potential that 13 firearms could be used by the occupiers against the 14 police? 15 A: That potential existed that night and 16 as it does in any operation. 17 Q: Well, any operation at which TRU is 18 deployed? Let me put it this way then -- 19 A: TRU -- I was going to say TRU team is 20 deployed as a matter of course whenever the Public Order 21 Team is deployed, they take -- if it's an urban setting, 22 they'll take the high ground as counter sniper. 23 They go with us because should someone in 24 a crowd pull a firearm, then we're -- we're albeit that 25 we do have sidearms with all of our equipment, we're --


1 we're less capable of adequately responding to it than 2 those less encumbered by the equipment we wear. 3 And it's important in -- in the case of a 4 firearm being produced, that the members of the Crowd 5 Management Unit would -- would seek best cover that they 6 could. Those in position to respond to the firearm would 7 do so be it Crowd Management members or -- or a TRU team. 8 Q: So it was -- was it your 9 understanding at this time that it was standard for the 10 TRU team to be deployed whenever the CMU was to be 11 deployed? 12 A: Well this was early in the program 13 and it -- it certainly made common sense at the time and 14 it is a standard operating procedure. It was then and -- 15 and it continues to be. 16 Q: To be now? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And once you arrived then 19 at the -- the TOC site with the Staff Sergeant, was there 20 a further briefing provided to you and the CMU? 21 A: Yes. As Staff Sergeant Lacroix 22 reiterated, I have noted here, which suggests to me that 23 he was the one that gave us the first message back at the 24 Forest Detachment, he reiterated that we would only be 25 securing the public access area and forcing the suspects


1 to retreat into the Park or arrest if anyone stays, is 2 what I've noted here. 3 Q: All right. Did you have any 4 preliminary assessment as to the -- the nature of the 5 gathering or the type of gathering that you were about to 6 -- that -- that you -- you were to clear the parking -- 7 sandy parking lot of? 8 A: I wasn't sure exactly what was there. 9 I don't believe we had clear eyes on -- on that area at 10 the time. That was the purpose of -- of the Sierra units 11 is -- was to get close enough to see exactly what was 12 happening. 13 Q: All right. Was there any discussion 14 with respect to the type of tactics or what the plan was 15 going to be for the CMU aside from what -- how -- what 16 you've explained? 17 A: That, as I recall, was the extent of 18 it. 19 Q: All right. Was there any discussion 20 at the TOC regarding the degree of possibility or 21 likelihood of the presence of firearms? 22 A: Well, beyond knowing that -- probably 23 every, if not most officers there that had worked in that 24 area for the month -- throughout the month of August and 25 those that had prior experience there, were fully


1 cognizant of hearing firearms in the Army Base which 2 borders the Park. 3 So the potential was there certainly. But 4 nothing concrete was made known to us about the existence 5 of firearms in the hands of the people in the Park that 6 night at that time. 7 Q: Had you been made aware of any report 8 concerning the -- the possible existence of AK-47, Mini- 9 Rugers and the like, in the hands of the occupiers? 10 A: No, I had not. 11 Q: Had you formed any assessment about 12 the degree of possibility or likelihood that occu -- the 13 occupiers would use any firearms against the police in 14 this endeavour? 15 A: In my mind it -- it wouldn't make 16 sense to do that. The -- our efforts would have been to 17 clear the sandy parking lot, public access area. If 18 someone wanted to shoot us for that reason that just -- 19 it just didn't seem to match the gravity of what we were 20 up to. 21 Q: Had you been made aware of any 22 information that there had been reportedly fifty (50) to 23 a hundred (100) rounds of gunfire emanating from the -- 24 the -- either the Park or the Army Camp the night before? 25 A: I may have been, but I don't have


1 special -- or recollection of that. 2 Q: Can you explain to us how, if at all, 3 the presence of firearms, and the degree of risk posed by 4 them, factors into a CMU operation? 5 A: Well, if -- if there are firearms 6 confirmed at -- in a -- in a crowd it's -- it's not 7 appropriate to send a Crowd Management Unit into that 8 situation, and we wouldn't go. 9 Q: All right. How is a CMU trained to 10 react in the situation where they engage with a member -- 11 one (1) or members of a crowd, and without forewarning, 12 that member is spotted with a gun? 13 A: Well a number of things and -- and 14 they're primarily common sense. You would sound off or 15 report or yell out, Gun. As best you could you would try 16 to identify the location of the gun, using a clock 17 system, twelve o'clock being straight ahead; so if, you 18 know, gun at two o'clock, that would direct people into 19 the right area ahead. 20 You would take immediate cover, keeping in 21 mind your partner. Those that were in a position and 22 with the grounds to return fire, if necessary, or deal 23 with it -- with their pistol, would do so. 24 And in a scenario where the TRU team is 25 deployed I would expect they would be attempting to


1 engage the individual with the weapon as well. 2 Q: All right. And in the event that 3 you had confirmed information that any of the occupiers 4 in the Park had been spotted, by either an Oscar or 5 Sierra team, to be in possession of any guns, would that 6 have impacted the decision, in your view, to continue to 7 start or continue with the advancement down East Parkway 8 Drive that night? 9 A: Would have impacted myself 10 personally, or the decision makers? 11 Q: Well, the decision makers, but based 12 on your -- your experience as a trained -- 13 A: Yes, I -- yes, it would -- it would 14 impact both myself and the decision makers, I'm sure. 15 Q: How would it impact -- 16 A: It would impact -- I'm -- I would -- 17 it would be cancelled, I'm sure. 18 Q: It would be cancelled. All right. 19 And what was the level of visibility when you were at the 20 TOC preparing to advance? 21 A: It was a clear night. And it was 22 somewhat cloudy and there was about a three-quarter moon. 23 So once your eyes had adjusted to the -- to that level of 24 darkness, you could see, reasonably well, under the 25 circumstances.


1 So kind of a night vision thing, not -- 2 not night vision by means of artificial equipment or 3 artificially, but just naturally. If you're outside for 4 -- and away from lights for a number of minutes, you do 5 gain a bit of what we call night vision. 6 Q: All right. What, if any, amongst the 7 CMU, had night vision equipment? 8 A: No one in the CMU had that? 9 Q: Okay. Is that normal in a night-time 10 operation? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. Did you know that the Sierra 13 teams were being deployed in advance of the CMU? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: And that their function was to -- to 16 be observers? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: Did you have any other information 19 about their -- their mission, if you will, or what it was 20 they were looking out for? 21 A: Well, they were to assess what was 22 going on and -- and provide information back, and just 23 simply report what they saw. 24 Q: Did you know that they had trouble 25 deploying invisibly?


1 A: I recall something like that, yes. 2 Q: Did your instructions change, in any 3 respect, before deployment, regarding the entering of the 4 Park? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Did your instructions change, in any 7 way, prior to deployment, regarding the mission of the 8 CMU? 9 A: No, it did not. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Did you have any knowledge, 14 information, or belief at this time, that the CMU was, at 15 any time, being deployed as a diversionary tactic to 16 allow the Sierra teams to get into position? 17 A: No, I had no knowledge of that. 18 Q: Would it concern you if, in fact, 19 that night one of the reasons the CMU was being deployed 20 was to act as a diversion to allow the Sierra teams to 21 get into position, and yet you weren't told? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Why not? 24 A: It could have been on a need-to-know 25 basis. If we start down the road and they cancel us and


1 during that process the Sierra team gets into position, 2 the objective was met. 3 Q: What objective? 4 A: Well, you're -- you -- the question 5 was about getting the Sierra teams into position. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: And had we started down the roadway 8 with -- with our objective clear to go down towards the 9 Park and we're part way down and we're -- we're told to 10 disengage or cancel, and we turn back to the parkette, 11 all the while not knowing that the Sierra teams were now 12 in their places, it made no difference as to my mindset 13 or my -- my function. 14 Q: All right. Is it part of the mandate 15 of the CMU to be deployed as a diversionary tactic for 16 TRU? 17 A: It's not listed as a written mandate, 18 but it's certainly an option. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Now, as you get set to exit the MNR 23 parking lot, what type of crowd situation, referring back 24 to your manual, did you expect the CMU was likely to 25 encounter?


1 A: At the very least an aggressive 2 crowd; disorderly, aggressive crowd, yes. 3 Q: And was this expectation expressed to 4 the rest of the unit by either yourself or Staff Sergeant 5 Lacroix? 6 A: Not explicitly. I mean, the members 7 had worked all day. We were -- we had seen different 8 things amongst us. It was -- it was plain by virtue of 9 the radio reports and what was going on that day, that 10 there was an air -- or a tension, sorry, in the air that 11 seemed to develop late in the day, that I believe -- I 12 know I did, perceived it. 13 I can't speak for others. 14 Q: Right. 15 A: But it was -- it was obvious. I 16 don't know how to explain it any differently. 17 Q: All right. And did you have any 18 serious concerns about the capability of this CMU to 19 fulfill its mission of clearing the sandy parking lot? 20 A: No, I did not. 21 Q: Did the relative darkness that you 22 were present -- facing, cause you any concern? 23 A: Well I didn't like it, but it still 24 didn't alter the fact that we had a -- we had a task to 25 complete.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: It wasn't ideal. 3 Q: And for the obvious reasons that it 4 would be more ideal if you could have full vision of 5 what's in front of you? 6 A: Yes, that -- that's correct. 7 Q: Okay. Did you have any sense as to 8 what the under -- what the role of the -- or the 9 anticipated role of the K-9 officers and their dogs would 10 be that night? 11 A: They are a part of the crowd 12 management training course standard. It would all depend 13 on what we were met with. 14 So much we -- that we were doing was 15 simply preparing for the worst and dealing with what we 16 encountered in the manner that it was dealt to us. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: Such that if persons were back in the 19 Park, the area was clear, which is what we found when we 20 first went up there, that's fine. 21 The K-9 officers would be used, or 22 potentially could have been used to whatever function 23 that the -- Staff Sergeant Lacroix, in this case, deemed 24 necessary. 25 I mean used to move people back; in


1 training scenarios we use the dogs to move groups back 2 from injured officers while they're being tended to. 3 They can be used as a deterrence, that's 4 the primary function of -- of them in a crowd situation. 5 Q: All right. And did you receive any 6 other information or instructions relevant to the CMU's 7 mission, before deployment? 8 A: No. It was a consistent message 9 right from the Forest Detachment, as well as what was 10 reiterated at the parkette, that we wanted to secure the 11 sandy parking lot area; that we were definitely not to go 12 into the Park. 13 That was -- those were the two (2) items 14 that were crystal clear. 15 Q: And I guess, thirdly, that if any 16 occupiers refused to -- to leave the sandy parking lot, 17 that they would be arrested. 18 A: If it was an arrestable situation, 19 yes. 20 Q: Right. Assuming you had grounds. 21 Are -- 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: All right. Now as at the point of 24 exit then from the MNR parking lot, what formation did 25 the CMU take?


1 A: Initially we were in the box 2 formation. 3 Q: And why the box formation? 4 A: It's an appropriate way to travel 5 down the roadway when you're not engaged in anything with 6 an aggressive crowd. 7 Q: All right. And where were you and 8 Staff Sergeant Lacroix in relation to the box formation 9 relative to the other officers. 10 A: Yeah, I can't be totally sure but I 11 believe it was in the -- in the back on the outside of 12 the -- of the box towards the rear in the outside of it. 13 Q: All right. But in front of the 14 Arrest Team? 15 A: The additional eight (8) officers you 16 mean? 17 Q: Yes, I'm sorry, the additional eight 18 (8) officers. 19 A: I'm not totally sure on that. I 20 can't -- 21 Q: Okay. Towards the rear in any event? 22 A: Towards the rear, yes. 23 Q: All right. And who had radio 24 communications capability within the unit? 25 A: All the officers had -- had portable


1 radios as far as I knew and they were wired in; they 2 could listen to transmissions. The majority also had 3 their -- their portable radio microphones on their vests 4 which would be on the upper portion of their shoulder; 5 left handed or right handed. That's where mine was. 6 By -- by virtue that the members were not 7 in command positions, it was -- it was a given that Staff 8 Sergeant Lacroix and myself would be the ones talking on 9 the radio with the exception being some type of exigent 10 circumstance where a member sees something or if 11 something -- something happens that needs to be reported. 12 I mean, common sense again prevails at that stage. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But the primary function for the 15 officers besides Staff Lacroix and myself, was to listen. 16 Q: And was there a -- was the -- was 17 everyone therefore, in the CMU, able to hear all 18 communications which either went to or were received 19 through the TAC channel? 20 A: The TAC channel. They should have, 21 yes. 22 Q: All right. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: And were your microphones powerful 2 enough to -- to pick up sounds surrounding you to a 3 degree or -- or were they very sensitive just to your 4 voice? 5 A: It picks up road noise, traffic going 6 by, people talking in the background. I -- I have 7 experience with that. 8 Q: All right. And who gave the command 9 then to advance? 10 A: Probably Lacroix, but I -- I can't be 11 sure. It was likely Staff Lacroix. 12 Q: And to your knowledge, had the TRU 13 team already been deployed? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Now, in -- in the next 16 part of your testimony, I'd like to review the actual 17 advancement of the CMU down to the sandy parking lot. 18 And to assist us with understanding that 19 I'd like you to turn to Tab 13 of your brief which is 20 Exhibit P-438 and it is the recording, the transcript of 21 the TAC channel communications from 10:27 p.m. to 11:10 22 p.m., September 6th, 1995. 23 A: Yes, I have it. 24 Q: We may also make reference to the 25 diagram behind you dated September 25, 1995. And for a


1 reference for My Friends, if you go to -- sorry, I had 2 the wrong tab. 3 It's at Tab 12, Inquiry Document Number 4 10004692, but we also will have that image blown up when 5 we actually make reference to it. 6 And this is a diagram that -- that you 7 prepared, is that right? 8 A: Behind me? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: I made markings on this diagram, yes 11 I did. 12 Q: And do you recall when you made those 13 markings? 14 A: It was on the date indicated, 15 September 25th. 16 Q: Of '95? 17 A: Of '95, yes. 18 Q: And do you recall the circumstances 19 under which you came to -- to affix your notes and 20 markings? 21 A: At this day, no. 22 Q: All right. Perhaps you could just 23 quickly go to your notes then. 24 At Tab 17 Inquiry Document 2005602, and if 25 you would look at the September 25th notation. Oh, I'm


1 sorry, the page numbers are -- are wiped out on mine, but 2 it's September 25th. Are you there? 3 A: I'm here in my -- my notebook, yes. 4 Q: At the 20:00 entry? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And maybe you can read that and -- 7 and let me know if that refreshes your memory. 8 A: Yes, it: 9 "Meet with Detective Constable Mike 10 Harwood from the Dutton office at the 11 Command Post. He was working under the 12 direction of Detective Inspector 13 Goodall. He was looking for 14 indications from me on my position at 15 the scene of -- on September 6th,'95, 16 excuse me. And my observations by 17 making markings on the -- on the 18 topographical map -- map that he 19 provided. 20 I made a number of markings and paths 21 on the blown-up map. It wasn't [I put 22 down here not scale; that's my 23 entries], but positions best to my 24 recollection." 25 Q: All right. And perhaps we can make


1 this diagram, the diagram September 25, 1995, the next 2 exhibit? 3 THE REGISTRAR: Is that the large 4 drawing? 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We'll make it -- right 6 now we'll make it 1004692 the exhibit please? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1485, Your Honour. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1485: Document Number 1004692. 11 Small (8x11) topographical 12 map of Ipperwash Provincial 13 Park marked by and labelled 14 G. Hebblethwaite (undated). 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: As well we have behind you an aerial 18 photograph of East Parkway Drive from the MNR parking lot 19 to Ipperwash Provincial Park, and this is made -- it was 20 taken somewhere between 2000 and 2002, so it's subsequent 21 to 1995. 22 And behind that is a blown up image from 23 that photograph. I'm sorry, it's behind it. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: You can't see it right now but I'm


1 just letting you know about it, which is the sandy 2 parking lot blown up. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: In case either of those are -- are of 5 -- of assistance in reviewing. And as well, of course, 6 your notes, if you would like to refer to those as well, 7 at Tab 10 Exhibit P-1484. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And commencing at page 37 about 12 halfway down. 13 All right. Now one (1) thing before we 14 get into -- to this, so we can understand your notes, 15 from time to time in your notes you make reference to -- 16 to directions, north, south, east, west. 17 So that we understand and can understand 18 your notes appropriately, can you show me or give me the 19 markers for which way was north and which way was south 20 in -- in your notes? 21 A: Yes, in my notes north -- north/south 22 would be the East Parkway Drive. 23 Q: Okay. So -- 24 A: So north would be from the parkette 25 towards the Ipperwash Park; that would be a northbound.


1 I would have indicated we were -- we were walking 2 northbound. And westbound would take us into the lake. 3 Q: All right. So East Parkway Drive was 4 noted as being east/west in -- in running? 5 A: It is in actuality, yes, but it -- 6 but -- 7 Q: I'm sorry. 8 A: -- my -- my reference is north/south. 9 Q: Right. I'm sorry. Army Camp Road 10 you reference as east/west? 11 A: Yes, that's correct. 12 Q: Okay. So that's -- now, what I'm 13 going to try to do is -- is use the markers as following: 14 Lakeside. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Field side, which would be Highway 21 17 end. 18 A: Yes, that's clear. 19 Q: The TOC side, if you will, so towards 20 the TOC. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And Park side towards the Park. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: If that's all right? 25 A: That's fine.


1 Q: Okay. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: All right. And so looking at the -- 6 the TAC channel, Tab 13? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And perhaps you can just set the 9 scene for us. Your unit has just left the TOC site, 10 which you will also refer to as -- as Lima 2, being the 11 MNR parking lot, and are in a box formation as you 12 commence your advancement along East Parkway Drive 13 towards the Park; is that fair? 14 A: That -- that's fair, yes. 15 Q: All right. And you are -- you've 16 indicated you're second in command to Staff Sergeant 17 Lacroix, and that you are in the rear of the unit with 18 him? 19 A: Towards the back, yes. 20 Q: Towards the back. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Now, who -- who was in 23 charge of issuing commands over the course of this 24 advancement? 25 A: Staff Sergeant Lacroix had the


1 ultimate authority. 2 Q: Did you do that from time to time? 3 A: I did. 4 Q: Why? 5 A: I can't be sure. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: It certainly was within my purview to 8 do so, but I can't say specifically why I spoke as much 9 as I did. 10 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And why was the 11 box formation chosen at this time? 12 A: That's just the -- the normal way we 13 would move down a roadway. It's an organized manner to 14 move a group of officers. 15 Q: And are any noise -- are any sounds 16 being made by the CMU as you begin your advance along 17 East Parkway Drive, aside from walking? 18 A: No, that would be it. 19 Q: Okay. Do you have any knowledge as 20 to where any of the TRU teams were at this stage in the 21 deployment? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I knew that they were being deployed


1 ahead of us. I'm not sure if I have it in my notes here. 2 My sense is that they were, excuse me, others that were 3 back of that, closer to ourselves. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: I believe I have that noted somewhere 6 that they may have been crossing the roadway ahead of us 7 as we walked down -- 8 Q: And we'll get to that. 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: All right. And how -- approximately 11 how many metres is it from the parking lot -- sorry, the 12 MNR parking lot to the sandy parking lot? 13 A: Approximately 800 metres. 14 Q: Okay. Now looking at the TAC channel 15 transcript and the first transmission that's recorded: 16 "LACROIX: CMU advance, slow pace. 17 Should be tenth of a K. 18 TOC to CMU. We're advancing to 19 within..." 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: There was a correction to the 25 transcript, so let me read it again.


1 "CMU advances, slow pace, [should be] 2 eight-tenths (8/10's) of a -- of a 3 kilometre." 4 What would that refer to, do you know? 5 A: Well, being -- I'm going to mark my 6 copy to show that -- 7 Q: Certainly. 8 A: -- eight-tenths (8/10's). 9 Q: Certainly. 10 A: Well that would suggest to me that -- 11 that the distance was estimated as 800 metres, eight- 12 tenths (8/10) of a kilometre. 13 Q: All right, thank you. And then: 14 TOC to CMU. We're advancing to within 15 a three hundred (300)..." 16 Do you have any idea what that was in 17 reference to? 18 A: I don't know specifically. 19 Q: All right. And if you go down to the 20 bottom of the page there's an exchange with Al -- between 21 Alpha and Lima 2; do you see that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then over the page: 24 "LACROIX: Everybody stay off the air 25 unless somebody's hurt up or down or


1 you hear anything, any kind of noise 2 (inaudible) [and then it says] strange 3 noise." 4 Do you have any recollection what this 5 comment was in reference to? 6 A: It may have referred to the bottom of 7 the previous page, where the Alpha team was talking. And 8 it was information that really, probably didn't need to 9 be on the TAC channel. 10 So we were in operation; now it's 11 important to maintain radio discipline. 12 Q: All right. So he's telling them to 13 stay off the air unless they've got really important to 14 say? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And if you go to the -- the 17 first comment by Skinner: 18 "CMU: TAC 1 please be adv [or be 19 advised] that you've been spotted by 20 their forward observers and their 21 forward observers are retreated." 22 What's happening here? 23 A: Well, the information has come to us 24 that the occupiers had observers between the Park and 25 where we were. And it would seem from this that we had


1 been spotted, and those persons, however many there were, 2 were heading back to the Park. 3 Q: And for the record, this comment 4 happens about six (6) minutes and fifty-seven (57) 5 seconds into the advancement, or about 10:34 p.m., 6 assuming the start time on this transcript is correct. 7 And with that information, can you tell me 8 approximately where you were along East Parkway Drive or 9 are you able to do that? 10 A: No, I cannot. 11 Q: All right. And do you know whether 12 or not you were still in the box formation? 13 A: I believe we were in the cordon 14 formation by this point. 15 Q: All right. And why change to the 16 cordon formation? 17 A: Well, I have in my notes that it was 18 shortly after we started down the roadway that we moved 19 into the cordon formation. 20 Q: Yes. Yes, I see that. 21 A: I would suspect because we were aware 22 that there was observers out looking for us, if not us, 23 the Sierra teams, so in that sense it was quite 24 conceivable that we could be engaged unknowingly -- 25 Q: All right.


1 A: -- prior to getting into the Park. 2 So if that's the case the box formation was not the 3 appropriate position to be in. It was for officer safety 4 purposes and to respond to any kind of a threat like that 5 it's best to be in the cordon formation. 6 Q: And I note just a couple of lines 7 down: 8 "LACROIX: Everybody alert. Stay 9 spread out." 10 What was that in reference to? 11 A: I can't be sure. 12 Q: All right. Fair enough. That 13 doesn't help you with respect to the formation? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. The last line: 16 "LACROIX: Dressing, shields down." 17 Can you describe what Lacroix is referring 18 to when he utters this? 19 A: I believe it was to have our face 20 shields down. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: They -- they have pivot points on the 23 sides and when we have the helmets on but we're not 24 engaged in something we generally will have them up. 25 It's easier to communicate just talking to someone that


1 way, plus it's -- there's less heat build-up. And with 2 the shields down it -- it puts the shield into a position 3 of protection that it's designed for. 4 Q: And so at this -- and -- and the 5 term, 'dressing,' what does that mean? Just -- 6 A: Just aligning yourselves up in your 7 formation. 8 Q: Okay. And the fact that you're being 9 told to put your visors down, what does that tell you 10 about the -- the advance or at least the -- the stage of 11 the advance? 12 A: Well, it sounds like there was reason 13 to believe that we -- we could be -- we could have a need 14 to have our shields in place. 15 Q: All right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: All right. And on page 3, fourth 20 transmission by Lacroix: 21 "TAC 1: CMU, 2 to 300 metres out 22 awaiting instructions." 23 Now, this appears to -- to show that -- 24 that Lacroix is checking back with the TOC? 25 A: It appears that way, yes.


1 Q: All right. And would this be 2 standard as you go along the advancement? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: It makes sense to want to know where 7 we're at. We were just being updated. I mean there's a 8 lot going on. To contextualize this, there's a lot going 9 on prior to that. 10 Q: What -- what was going on? 11 A: Well, I shouldn't say a lot, but 12 there's -- there's -- clearly we're being looked for in 13 the bushes. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: So there's a need to know if there's 16 any updated information and -- 17 Q: And the reference to -- to 2 to 300 18 metres out, where does that tell you the unit is relative 19 to the sandy parking lot? 20 A: Well, that suggests to me we're about 21 a third of the way there. 22 Q: All right. So about 300 metres out 23 from the TOC? 24 A: That's what it suggests to me, yes. 25 Q: All right.


1 A: It could also mean we're 2 to 300 2 metres out from the other direction so... 3 Q: All right. You don't -- 4 A: Like, away from the objective. I 5 don't know which it means. I take it as that distance 6 away from the MNR parking lot but it could also mean the 7 other. 8 Q: All right. Well, if we move down 9 then to -- to your next reference: 10 TOC to CMU. Anything from Sierra 1 11 please?" 12 What -- and then: 13 "TOC from CMU. Anything to report from 14 Sierra 1 in regards to what spotlights 15 are, et cetera." 16 Can you recall what was going on which 17 gave rise to you making this request of the TOC? 18 A: Yes, I -- I'm just reading prior to 19 that as well. 20 It -- we could see -- I could see 21 spotlights in and amongst the trees from well ahead of 22 us. As they were being panned about you could see them 23 very clearly for a moment, then you could the side of 24 them. They were also shining up into the sky and it was 25 similar to what you might envision with the -- with the


1 typical Hollywood spotlights in the sky thing where you 2 have the light beams going up. 3 So it was a combination of that. It was 4 very sporadic through the trees, into the skyline, out 5 and about. 6 Q: And this is along East Parkway Drive 7 that you're seeing the spotlights? 8 A: This was while we were on East Park - 9 - Parkway Drive, yes -- 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: -- and it was ahead of us. So it 12 would be in the bushes, it wasn't on the roadway that I 13 could see at this point but it was in the -- in the 14 bushes or be -- behind that. 15 Q: And then you receive a response from 16 Skinner: 17 "The spotlights are from the occupants 18 and they are roaming wildly." 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And that occurred at about nine (9) 21 minutes and thirty-seven (37) seconds into the advance as 22 recorded by this transmission. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: Then at the bottom, Skinner, CMU to 25 TAC 1:


1 "Advising Sierra 1 and Sierra 2 are not 2 -- repeat, are not [sorry] not in 3 position." 4 What did you understand this to mean? 5 A: Well, I -- I knew that they were -- 6 they had decided to deploy the Sierra units to have eyes 7 on the location that we were ultimately headed to. And 8 at this point they were not in position to -- to have 9 those eyes on that location. 10 It -- they just for various reasons as was 11 indicated in the previous transmission that they were 12 being looked for as well. So they just hadn't been able 13 to move into position just yet. 14 Q: And did that impact on the 15 advancement by the CMU or did the CMU continue to advance 16 notwithstanding this advice? 17 A: I don't recall stopping. 18 Q: All right. And then if you go to 19 page 4, the TOC: 20 "LACROIX: Advance one (1) hydro pole, 21 hold, spread out especially contact 22 squad from the other squad. Give 23 yourself a little bit of space." 24 Now, what's going on here as far as you 25 can recall?


1 A: Well, the tendency sometimes is to 2 have the spacing deviate from what we would ideally like 3 it to be. The distance between the Contact Squad and the 4 Cover Squad, is the left and right Cover Squad, would 5 normally be in the area of 7 paces or 20/21 feet. 6 It would appear from this transmission 7 that that distance between the units had -- had gotten 8 closer. 9 Q: All right. And are you still in 10 cordon position at this point? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And then Skinner: 13 "CMU be advised, party on the road and 14 he has a weapon in his hand." 15 Then Tex to CMU: 16 "Person down the road does have a 17 weapon, does have a weapon." 18 And then Lacroix: 19 "Okay everybody move split right, split 20 [sorry] right left, split right left, 21 split right left, split right left. 22 Everybody split right left, take a 23 knee, take a knee." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And do you have


1 recollection as to what transpired at this time which is 2 approximately fifteen (15) minutes and fifteen (15) 3 seconds into this transmission which would be about 10:42 4 p.m.? 5 A: Well, again as -- as we've covered 6 well, if there were firearms confirmed that we were not 7 going to be continuing. So it was a matter of us 8 stopping, getting low to the ground, being less of a 9 target, getting to either side of the roadway and just 10 waiting for further information. 11 Q: And in fact did you have a discussion 12 with Staff Sergeant Lacroix as to whether or -- what -- 13 what would be the, you know, the fate of the mission in 14 the event that the -- the firearms were confirmed? 15 A: Yes. I believe I have that in my 16 notebook. I'd just like to find it. 17 Q: Certainly at page 37 at the bottom 18 there's a notation: 19 "Staff Sergeant Lacroix and I agreed, 20 obviously, that if firearms were 21 confirmed to be present, that the 22 mission would be terminated." 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And halfway down, your -- 25 you say:


1 "CMU to TOC. We -- we read that and 2 we've taken cover. [And] CMU confirm 3 one (1) man with weapon, long gun." 4 Now my question is first of all, when you 5 took cover does that mean each person took a knee and 6 they went off to the side? 7 A: In pairs, yes. 8 Q: In pairs? And then you're confirming 9 one (1) man with weapon, long gun, are you confirming the 10 veracity of that report or just the fact that you've 11 received that report? 12 A: Receiving. 13 Q: All right. And Skinner near the end 14 of the page: 15 "Subject is believed to be armed." 16 And you say: 17 "Copy. That one (1) subject armed, 18 long gun, 10-4." 19 And now we're approximately eighteen (18) 20 minutes and thirty (30) seconds into the deployment or 21 approximately 10:45 p.m. 22 Then on page 5... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: And I should indicate, sorry, at page 2 4 on your copy there's a -- a recording -- there's a 3 reference to Deane. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: "TAC to CMU: Person down the road, 6 does not have a weapon." 7 Do you recall receiving any transmissions 8 from any TRU team members on the TAC channel? 9 A: No, I don't know how we would have. 10 Q: And why do you say that? 11 A: My understanding was that they did 12 not have the same frequencies available to them that we 13 operated on. 14 Q: All right. And -- 15 A: It's -- 16 Q: -- and for -- 17 A: I was going to say it's conceivable 18 he had a second radio, but I don't recall that that was 19 actually the case. 20 Q: And Inspector Skinner, in his 21 evidence, indicated that that -- that it was his voice, 22 in fact, according to his identification. 23 So you might correct your transcript. And 24 the reference to Tex was him mixing up which channel he 25 was on.


1 All right. 2 A: Okay, yes. 3 Q: Thank you. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Now, at this stage, when you are 8 taking cover and waiting to receive back a report with 9 respect to the report of an armed individual, is the 10 sandy parking lot visible yet? 11 A: No, it is not. 12 Q: Okay. And on page 5, Skinner, half 13 way down at 10:46 p.m.: 14 "CMU confirm the subject has -- has a 15 stick that has been confirmed by Romeo. 16 Stick." 17 And you say: 18 "Copy that CMU, copy." 19 And -- and then you ask: 20 "Do we have Sierra in position, CMU?" 21 And you're told to stand by. 22 Once you received the information that it 23 was a stick and not a -- a firearm, did -- did the unit 24 resume the cordon position and resume its advancement? 25 A: I don't recall specifically at what


1 point we -- we started back on the roadway. 2 Q: Okay. But at some point, obviously-- 3 A: It would be after it was confirmed 4 that -- after the Skinner transmission, not before. 5 Q: Right, thank you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And you make the comment: 10 "TAC 1: Do we have Sierra in position? 11 Ah, key your mic for a second before 12 talking, please, in this." 13 What are you referring to, here? 14 A: There's a technical issue when we're 15 on a TOC -- sorry, a TAC channel, where when you key your 16 mic you have to wait about a second to be able to 17 transmit, otherwise if you speak immediately you're -- 18 you're losing that first second or so of your -- of your 19 talk. 20 So it's a matter of hold the key in, let 21 it engage, let the technology work and then -- and then 22 speak. 23 Q: All right. And the -- what was the 24 lighting at this point, in terms of art -- was there any 25 artificial lighting along East Parkway Drive, aside from


1 the spotlights you saw ahead? 2 A: No, there wasn't. 3 Q: All right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And then if we go over to page 6, 8 please, at approximately 10:48 p.m. or twenty-one (21) 9 minutes and thirty (30) seconds into this advancement. 10 Just prior to that, Skinner says: 11 "Alpha and Sierra 2 can cover your 12 position. CMU TAC 1 do you copy?" 13 And you reply: 14 "Copy that, copy that. We're 15 engaging." 16 And do you re -- can you tell us what was 17 transpiring at that point in time and what you meant by, 18 "We're engaging?" 19 A: I believe that's the point where a -- 20 a motorised vehicle of some sort, an ATV-type vehicle had 21 come down the roadway towards us. 22 There was -- there was headlight on it, a 23 single headlight. And it came up and then turned around 24 and then went back towards the sandy parking lot area. 25 And as we kept coming, there were rocks or stones or some


1 type of throwable material that was hitting our shields. 2 Not a -- not a great amount, as I recall, 3 at that time, but it -- we were starting to receive 4 incoming, for lack of a better word. And that's when I - 5 - that's what I would have been referring to; "engaging". 6 In other words that we had -- we had 7 contact and we're -- we're into it. 8 Q: All right. So -- but you're still in 9 East Parkway Drive at this point? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you see yet the sandy parking 12 lot? 13 A: I can't be sure. 14 Q: All right. And at this time an ATV 15 or some similar vehicle approaches you and returns and 16 you receive some projectiles being thrown at you? 17 A: It all happened very quickly. It was 18 and around that same moment. It came up, turned around, 19 left. There were other spotlights in the area as well is 20 -- is my best recollection which suggested to me there 21 were more occupiers outside of the Park in our direction 22 at that time. 23 Q: And maybe you can just go to page 38 24 of your notebook about halfway through and this is just 25 after it's been confirmed that the -- that the alleged


1 weapon is a stick. And about halfway down you indicate: 2 "CMU advanced again in cordon." 3 Which is the cordon formation, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then you say: 6 "At about this time..." 7 And then perhaps you can read the -- the 8 next bit there for me? 9 A: "At about this time a radio report 10 overheard indicating that they're 11 [bracket] (Native) advance scouts had 12 spotted us coming and that TRU members 13 invisibly deployed were being lit up by 14 spotlights used by the Natives looking 15 for police in the bush. About 150 16 metres away a motorcycle or motorized 17 All Terrain [bracket] (one (1) 18 headlight) drove down the road towards 19 us its headlight lighting us up. Two 20 (2) or three (3) other powerful 21 spotlights were being shone at us from 22 the disputed area ahead. These lights 23 turned my night vision [or] ruined my 24 night vision. CMU advanced to the 25 fence-line and stopped.


1 Q: Okay. And maybe you can just hold it 2 there. I should have stopped you just a -- a sentence 3 earlier, but you're indicating that at about 150 metres 4 away. 5 Is it away from the sandy parking lot that 6 you -- you encounter the ATV or motorized vehicle? 7 A: Approximately, yes. 8 Q: All right. And are you then able to 9 see the sandy parking lot from that vantage point? 10 A: It seems that way. I -- I have no 11 clear recollection though. 12 Q: And just -- if you turn around with 13 the laser pointer to the aerial map which shows East 14 Parkway Drive from the MNR parking lot to the Park, 15 perhaps you can just point where approximately if you can 16 this incident would have taken place? 17 A: Approximately in this area here. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: There's a slight bend in the roadway. 20 Q: And -- and I was just going to 21 indicate there is a slight bend in -- in the roadway and 22 then -- so that the sandy parking lot is off to the left 23 if you will, is that fair; down the road and off to the 24 left, in terms of the angle? 25 A: Well, it -- it's almost straight on.


1 Sorry, it's almost straight on. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: With a -- with a slight deviation to 4 the left, yes. 5 Q: All right. So you were able to see 6 then the sandy parking lot at this time? 7 A: From this position here, yes. Sorry, 8 this position here, yes, we would have been. 9 Q: All right. And then you indicate -- 10 you indicate in your notes that you advanced to the 11 fence-line and stopped. 12 And if we go back to page 6 of the TAC 13 transcript -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- Tab 13 and we carry on. Your 16 noted as saying: 17 "Contact Squad back up. Contact Squad 18 back up. 19 LACROIX: Right cover back up a bit." 20 And then you say: 21 "Right cover back up. Right cover." 22 And then: 23 "Back, back, CMU." 24 And then Lacroix radios in: 25 "They're on the Provincial property."


1 Skinner says to take up a defensive 2 position and Lacroix says to Contact Squad: 3 "Back up slowly." 4 Can you tell us then at this point in 5 time, explain the advance to the fence and -- and what 6 you encountered and saw as you advanced to the fence? 7 A: Yes, after the motorized vehicle came 8 down the roadway at us and the -- the high intensity 9 spotlights, it was shortly thereafter that we were 10 suddenly there and these lights just didn't stop, they -- 11 they continued. And our vision was -- our night vision 12 was disrupted and it was difficult for the next few 13 moments to completely appreciate where exactly we were. 14 And I was rather taken aback by suddenly 15 we were there. I mean, I knew -- 16 Q: "There" being the -- 17 A: At the objective, at the fence, or 18 close to the fence. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And we were into the parking lot. We 21 had gone beyond the -- the curve in the roadway to Army 22 Camp Road. So we were -- we were right there. And I 23 attributed that to the fact that we had been blinded by 24 the spotlights and had lost a sense of where exactly we 25 were.


1 Q: All right. So it was unintentional 2 that you went to the fence, park fence at that time? Or 3 was that the intention? 4 A: It was unexpected. 5 Q: Unexpected? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Why did you continue 8 advancing in the face of the projectiles and -- and the 9 motorized vehicle? 10 A: Well the motorized vehicle had turned 11 around and gone away. The projectiles, it is something 12 that we're equipped to deal with and it -- it would not 13 necessarily deter us from continuing, and it didn't. 14 Q: Okay. And did you -- where were -- 15 how many feet away from the fence were you when the unit 16 stopped. 17 A: Probably a couple of metres, at most. 18 Q: And was the unit still in a cordon 19 formation? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And where were you in relation to 22 that cordon formation? 23 A: About the centre of it. 24 Q: All right. And what, if anything, 25 did you observe, once the unit stopped?


1 A: Well there was a very large bonfire 2 in the Park area but down towards the water. There was a 3 smaller bonfire not too far off of directly ahead of 4 where we were, inside the Park again. 5 There was a Chrysler motor vehicle to the 6 left of where I was looking into the Park, which would be 7 again towards the water. It's headlights were on and it 8 was facing, if the water is north, it would be facing 9 south, southwest -- southwest, roughly. 10 So somewhat on -- on an angle towards -- 11 with the headlight shining in our general direction. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: There was a large yellow school bus 14 parked, distance wise I'm not sure if I have it noted 15 here, but it was parked on the, again, on the Park side 16 of the fence-line, but in a continuation. If we were to 17 extrapolate East Parkway Drive into the Park, it would 18 have been more or less in the direct line with East 19 Parkway Drive. 20 The school bus was -- the headlights were 21 on, and from that I -- I assumed it was running. And it 22 was facing in our direction with the headlights. 23 And between the school bus, and at right 24 at the fence-line, there was a large industrial size 25 dumpster sitting right next to the gate that would then


1 be opened. 2 And you could then go into the sandy 3 parking area, then come to the junction with Army Camp 4 Road, go Army Camp Road or continue on East Parkway 5 Drive. 6 So that -- that dumpster was between the 7 school bus and where we were. And the bus itself was 8 parked, I'd suggest 100 feet or more beyond the dumpster. 9 So further away from us. 10 Q: But behind the dumpster, further away 11 from -- 12 A: Back of the dumpster. I don't want 13 to leave the impression that the school bus was parked 14 immediately in front of the dumpster. It wasn't. It was 15 back of the dumpster and the dumpster itself was at the 16 fence-line. 17 Q: All right. And could you see whether 18 or not there was anyone in the bus, from your vantage 19 point? 20 A: No, I did not. 21 Q: Okay. And was the whole CMU unit in 22 the sandy parking lot at this time? 23 A: I didn't turn around to look. But my 24 recollection of how that parking lot was set up or how 25 the sandy parking lot is, I -- I don't believe -- the


1 whole unit could not have been in that area. Like the 2 vans would not have been in the area. 3 The eight (8) person arrest squad was not 4 equipped with shields. I don't know where they were. I 5 -- I probably shouldn't comment any more on that. 6 It wouldn't have been wise to be up close 7 because we were being pelted with throwable objects, they 8 didn't have shields. I would assume that they were 9 further back. 10 Q: All right. Do you require -- do you 11 recall there being any verbal exchanges while you are 12 stopped at the fence-line? 13 A: Yes. There were -- there were a 14 barrage of comments coming from the occupiers, some 15 insults. And above and beyond that, there -- there was 16 one (1) person that could be heard and it was a very -- 17 it was a very organized speech about the grandfathers 18 being buried on the property and that -- a bit of a 19 historical review of the situation there. 20 And it was -- it struck me as being a very 21 organized talk to the point where, I think my notes 22 indicate it was like it was scripted. 23 Q: And indeed, if we go to page 39 you 24 have made a -- a note of -- of what transpired at that 25 time in terms of the individual voice and -- and what you


1 observed when you were stopped at the fence-line. 2 I wonder if you would just read that page 3 into the record, please, page 39 of your notes. 4 A: Yes, I have it. I have here: 5 "One (1) main voice seemed to be coming 6 through..." 7 I just can't read my own writing here. 8 I'm not sure what that next word is, through a -- looks 9 like Superintendent, but that can't be the word. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: But the next line -- 12 Q: Is it 'script'? 13 A: Speaking -- I'm sorry? 14 Q: Script? 15 A: I'm -- thank you. 16 "Seemed to be [sorry, yeah] seemed to 17 be going through a script." 18 Thank you. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: "Speaking/informing us about his 21 grandfather being buried there. It was 22 their land and they would fight for it; 23 that they weren't afraid to die; that 24 they didn't need shields and helmets 25 because they were brave and


1 courageous." 2 And that was the extent of what I noted 3 him saying. There was more, but I didn't note it all. 4 Q: And then I think you go on to 5 indicate what you observed. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Perhaps you could carry on. 8 A: "A large bonfire to the left, inside 9 the Park about 250 to 300 feet away." 10 And that would be towards the water. 11 "Another smaller fire coming -- [sorry] 12 going just inside the fence area to the 13 left of a brown garbage dumpster. I 14 could see about twenty (20) men in the 15 immediate area on the Park side of the 16 fence. There was also a full size 17 yellow school bus [I have here] empty 18 but running, lights on, parked facing 19 us, back of the dumpster. And a 20 Chrysler or a Plymouth New Yorker-type 21 car parked facing east-south-east..." 22 And I -- I'd have to adjust that from my - 23 - my mapping here, so that would make it, again as I said 24 earlier, I believe southwest-south, or sorry, west- 25 southwest.


1 "...against the fence-line to my left, 2 about 75 to a 100 feet away. High 3 beams on. Vehicle had four (4) 4 rectangular headlights and two (2) 5 rectangular parking lights under each 6 set of two (2) headlights." 7 That was a configuration that I -- I made 8 a note of in my notebook, to define what type of vehicle 9 it was. 10 Q: Okay. And I'm not -- could you just 11 clarify that diagram? 12 A: Yes. It's just the front of a -- of 13 the motor vehicle I saw, it -- there's four (4) 14 rectangular boxes, two (2) by each on the right and left 15 side. And then there's a long rectangular box under each 16 of the two (2) smaller ones and that represents the 17 parting lights and the -- the two (2) pairs of smaller 18 boxes represent the headlights. 19 Q: Okay. So it's the headlights of the 20 car that you saw? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And that was closer -- that was 23 closer to the lakeside, as compared to the bus? 24 A: Yes. That's correct. 25 Q: Okay. And as you had a -- I


1 appreciate you said that you were at the fence before you 2 expected to be, but did you note whether or not there 3 were any First Nations people in the sandy parking lot as 4 you entered it? 5 A: I don't have a clear recollection of 6 the moment we entered the lot. As I've said, we were 7 suddenly there. But when we were there and I recognized 8 exactly where we were, there was -- there were no 9 occupiers in the public access area at that time, that I 10 could see. 11 Q: All right. And by the time you ended 12 up -- well, let me put it this way: 13 Did -- by the time you ended up at the 14 fence-line then, were there any First Nations persons or 15 vehicles in the sandy parking lot? 16 A: Not that I saw. 17 Q: All right. And that's reflected at 18 page 40 of your notes at the top? And at this point in 19 time, then, with you at the fence-line, is it fair to say 20 that -- that your mission is accomplished? 21 A: At that point, yes. 22 Q: And as a result, what do you do next? 23 A: Well, I've noted here a small fire 24 bomb, or a white flare of some type was tossed at us, 25 landing -- it landed to the right, behind the contact


1 squad. And members of the right cover squad kicked dirt 2 on it, or sand and -- and put it out. 3 I had conversation with Staff Sergeant 4 Lacroix and we both agreed that we need not stay where we 5 were and we called for the unit to back up. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: All right. And I'm sorry to do this 10 as you go back to page 6 of the TAC channel the passage 11 that we just reviewed: 12 "Contact Squad back up, contact Squad 13 back up." 14 Does this reflect the -- the discussion 15 you just recorded in your notes? 16 A: I don't believe that line does, but 17 four (4) lines below it does. 18 Q: "Back, back CMU?" 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. Thank you. And then 21 there is a report by Lacroix that all -- that the 22 occupiers are -- are in the Park; is that fair? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And what happens next? 25 A: Well, we just started to -- to back


1 up as a unit and a male yelled out that he -- yelled out 2 that he was not afraid of us and he came through the 3 turnstile of the fence-line and was swinging a pole or -- 4 or some kind of long stick wildly ahead of him. 5 Staff Sergeant Lacroix ordered a left 6 cover punchout and the left cover ran forward towards 7 this individual and he returned to the -- to the Park as 8 our people approached. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: The projectiles were coming at this 11 point; there were sticks and stones and similar to what 12 had happened as we first arrived. We resumed a back 13 manoeuvre. 14 And I can read from the transcript and it 15 makes total sense to me when -- I believe at some point 16 here we've -- we've told the Contact Squad to wait for 17 the left cover. On page 7 -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- it says, "Hold up..." 20 "LACROIX: Hold up Contact Squad. Let 21 that left cover catch up." 22 So this would have been a moment after the 23 left cover squad had punched out. They had advanced 24 forward and now they were backing up. And as the unit 25 was backing up the left cover had yet to return to their


1 position, so it was a matter of advising the Contact 2 Squad to let the left cover get back into position. 3 So that would match up correctly with -- 4 with the incidents that have occurred so far and with my 5 notes. 6 Q: All right. And just so that we can 7 cover -- if you go back to page 6 of the TAC channel at 8 10:54 p.m. approximately, there's a notation: 9 "LACROIX: Shield chatter." 10 Do you have any recollection of there 11 being shield chatter in and around this -- time? 12 This would have been after you were 13 backing up and before the -- I assume before the first 14 punchout by the left cover squad. 15 A: I have no independent recollection of 16 shield chatter. 17 Q: And on the next page at 10:55 18 approximately, or twenty-six (26) minutes and forty (40) 19 seconds into the advancement you're -- you say: 20 "TOC from CMU. Be advised that we are 21 at the perimeter. The badgers are 22 within the bounds of the Park. The 23 badgers are in the Park. Over." 24 Now, first of all can you define the word 25 or the term 'badgers'?


1 A: It's a code word that we use for 2 suspects. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: Not only in Public Order or Crowd 5 Management but in all aspects of -- of transmissions for 6 Emergency Response Team and TRU. 7 Q: All right. And by that what -- what 8 were you intending to convey by that message? 9 A: Just to provide the -- the TOC with 10 information that all the occupiers were within the 11 confines of the Park. 12 Q: All right. And the perimeter -- you 13 said that we're at the perimeter. Can you recall what -- 14 what the location of the CMU was by that reference? 15 A: We would have been in the sandy 16 parking lot. 17 Q: Still in the sandy parking lot? All 18 right. 19 A: At this point I would think, yes. 20 Q: All right. And then Skinner: 21 "TAC 1 are you in a position of cover?" 22 And that's at about twenty-eight (28) 23 minutes into this or 10:55. Do you recall that -- what 24 was going on at that point? 25 A: No, I do not.


1 Q: And your response: 2 "Negative right now. We're out in the 3 open but we can take cover. Go ahead." 4 A: Yes, I read that. 5 Q: Does that -- is that the -- do you 6 recall what's going on at this time? 7 A: No, I do not. 8 Q: Is this the time that -- that the 9 flares that you referred to were being thrown? 10 A: They would have come before this. 11 Q: Before that, okay. Thank you. And 12 then you've already explained to us that: 13 "LACROIX: Back up, back up, back up 14 to the pavement, back up to the 15 pavement." 16 This is after the left cover punchout has 17 been completed and now the unit is retreat -- retreating 18 to East Parkway Drive? 19 A: Yes. We're -- we're backing up to 20 the pavement. 21 Q: And the comment: 22 "The Contact Squad is to wait for left 23 cover." 24 Because the Contact Squad should be at the 25 back if you will at this point of the -- on the retreat


1 reverse -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Now did the fact that you saw 4 -- saw the -- a -- a school bus with its headlights on, 5 running inside the Park cause you any concern with 6 respect to safety of the police officers? 7 A: I -- I -- no, it didn't. I don't 8 recall it having registered as a potential weapon at the 9 time. 10 Q: And yet you indicated that you were 11 aware of the prior report that -- that a bus had been 12 used by the occupiers to -- in -- in their takeover of 13 the barracks and had reportedly run into military 14 vehicles. 15 A: Yes, I was aware of that. 16 Q: And did you -- did it not occur to 17 you that this could be used in a similar manner that 18 night, at this stage in the operation? 19 A: No. There's -- there's a difference 20 between tagging the back end or tagging a -- a motor 21 vehicle and -- and running down people. 22 And furthermore, there was a -- it didn't 23 appear to be an easy way for the school bus to engage us 24 with the dumpster in the position that it was plus the 25 fence-line.


1 Q: Similarly did you see the cars posing 2 any threat to police safety at this time? 3 A: No, I did not, for the same reasons. 4 Q: All right. If you go to your notes 5 at page 40 then, to try to pick up where the TAC channel 6 -- where we just finished reading from the TAC channel. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you indicate: 9 "We resumed --" 10 This is three quarters (3/4's) down. 11 "We resumed the back movement." 12 A: Movement, yes. 13 Q: "And more stuff came at us." 14 Perhaps you can continue reading that? 15 A: Yes. 16 "As we backed up I could see in the 17 spotlights shone at us -- shone at us 18 [sorry], the silhouettes of ten (10) to 19 twenty (20) or more advancing at us 20 having come over the fence. 21 They were yelling obscenities. They 22 had large sticks, clubs, poles and some 23 were swinging wildly. 24 I could also see the silhouette of a 25 man swinging Nunchaku sticks in a


1 circular motion over and above his 2 right shoulder as he faced us." 3 The Nunchaku stick is a martial arts 4 weapon which is a prohibited weapon in Canada. 5 "We were back in a cordon formation 6 still. To the south end which would be 7 the west end of the access area. 8 We were stopped as a unit being pelted 9 with objects and we could see 10 silhouetted people, dozens continuing 11 to advance at us with clubs, sticks 12 still plainly visible in their hands. 13 I yelled our repeatedly to wait for it 14 as did Lacroix." 15 Q: Okay. If I can just stop you there. 16 Now you told us that -- that just before this, there had 17 been a left cover punchout; is that right? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And the purpose of the punchout was 20 to -- was what? 21 A: Was to encourage the person that had 22 come out at us to return to the parking lot. 23 Q: All right. And by that movement were 24 you attempting to send out a message to the occupiers? 25 A: Well the individuals coming out


1 threatening to assault us and if he didn't return to the 2 Park he would have been arrested. And that potentially 3 someone in that scenario quite conceivably could have 4 been a leader which would be an objective at this stage 5 to -- to identify and apprehend leaders. 6 Q: All right. And then you back up. 7 But at the time that you are backing up to the pave -- do 8 you make it back to the pavement, by the way? 9 A: No, I did not. 10 Q: Okay. And if we go to the TAC 11 transcript at about 10:58 p.m., page 8. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: There's the following exchange: 16 LACROIX: Get ready for it, get ready. 17 Ready, ready, go, go." 18 And then: 19 "Back, back, back." 20 And I should indicate, for the record, 21 that these three (3) lines, if you will, take place over 22 an approximate four (4) minute interval which would be 23 from approximately 10:58 to 11:02. 24 And can you tell me, as best you can, what 25 was transpiring during this approximate four (4) minute


1 interval? 2 A: Well, the individuals I had just 3 spoke of that were -- had come over to the fence-line and 4 were coming towards us, our unit came to a stop. 5 We had been in the process of -- of 6 backing up. We were stopped. The individuals kept 7 coming towards us. They had weapons in their hands. 8 And it was a matter of the unit waiting to 9 see exactly what the intent was. And when it became 10 clear that the intent was to assault us, as they were 11 right upon the contact squad, the order was given to, Go. 12 Now a 'Go' is -- is a unit punchout. Now 13 the punchout is the tactic; the command for that is a 14 'Go'. They sometimes get mixed up or interchanged, but 15 the tactic itself is -- is called a punchout and the 16 command for that is a 'Go'. 17 Everyone knows what it means if someone 18 were to yell, Punchout, as opposed to, Go, and it -- you 19 make it work. In this case, it was "Go, go, go", and 20 that would have been echoed off by everybody so that 21 everyone would have heard that. 22 For someone that would have been in the 23 bushes, listening, watching, they would have probably 24 heard a lot of people, if not every member, repeating 25 that command, 'Go, go, go'.


1 And that's something we do, we call it 2 echoing commands, so that even if the radios don't work, 3 which they're prone not to at the most inopportune times, 4 then everyone's getting the message that they should be 5 getting. 6 It's -- it's a fail safe way of -- of 7 making sure that orders are heard. 8 Q: And can you just describe for us how 9 a full punchout is executed? 10 A: Well the unit basically runs forward 11 and, as a group, try to maintain the formation. And in 12 this case, we did so and we had -- a major confrontation 13 occurred between a number of individuals and -- and our 14 officers. 15 Bats, clubs, smashing against shields. 16 Staff Sergeant Lacroix to my right, his shield was 17 shattered; broke basically in half by an individual with 18 some type of club or pipe. 19 I -- I was engaged with somebody. I -- I 20 shielded a person back; I didn't use my baton, but I -- I 21 blocked an individual coming in on me. 22 There was conflict to my left. There was 23 assault, conflict to -- forward of me. There was, as I 24 just said, Staff Sergeant Lacroix had his shield broken. 25 It was out and out battle.


1 Q: And how many members of your unit was 2 engaged in this punchout? 3 A: I could say spec -- well, engaged, 4 sorry? 5 Q: Yes, engaged in it. 6 A: It would have been everyone except 7 the eight (8) officers that would be the arrest. They 8 would have, or they should have stayed behind because, 9 again, they were not protected from throwable objects. 10 Q: So this is thirty-two (32) officers 11 then? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: And possibly the K-9 officers. 15 Q: Possibly the -- 16 A: Possibly, I can't be sure. I -- I -- 17 Q: All right. 18 A: It's a maybe. 19 Q: At least the thirty-two (32) -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- police officers, and possibly the 22 K-9. And how many -- approximately how many First Nations 23 people were in the sandy parking lot at this time? 24 A: Twenty (20) plus. I -- I put down 25 dozens at one point there; that suggests twenty-four


1 (24). 2 Q: All right. Now during the course of 3 -- did you indicate that you were -- that you were hit? 4 A: I was assaulted, yes. 5 Q: Can you just describe what happened 6 to you? 7 A: It was simply an individual with some 8 type of a club coming at me; I shielded him back. 9 Q: So he's -- 10 A: And then he left. 11 Q: So he made contact with your shield 12 only? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And did you strike at any -- 15 any individuals during the course of this -- this 16 punchout and engagement? 17 A: No, I did not. 18 Q: All right. And did you see any other 19 activity of significance with -- with First Nations -- 20 involving a First Nations person over the course of this 21 engagement, aside from the -- the physical hand-to-hand 22 combat, if you will? 23 A: Yes. At one (1) point, as I'm trying 24 to get an appreciation of exactly the scope of what was 25 going on, I -- I recall looking to my right and there was


1 an individual on the ground on his back, arms and legs 2 were going -- flailing. And a group of officers were 3 bent over him, and in my -- in -- in my view were trying 4 to -- to handcuff him; that was my impression. 5 And this all happened within a couple of 6 seconds and it was -- was not in clear vision but it was 7 -- I could tell what was -- or at least I could sense 8 what was happening, and I recall just simply yelling out 9 to get the person out of there. It wasn't the -- it 10 wasn't the right place, right time to actually handcuff 11 someone, just simply grab an arm -- an arm each and a leg 12 each and get the person out. 13 There was -- there was throwable objects 14 coming in. I recall an officer behind me -- actually the 15 dogs were up with us because there was an officer behind 16 me that was shielding the K-9 officer who didn't have a 17 shield. 18 Q: All right. And you said that you saw 19 the -- this individual for a couple of seconds? 20 A: About that, yes. 21 Q: And was he on his back, so far as you 22 could see? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I wonder if you would -- if you 25 don't mind removing the aerial map behind you, taking


1 that down. And behind it is another aerial map. Thank 2 you. 3 And this is a blow up of the -- the 4 previous aerial map of the sandy parking lot area, with 5 the immediate portions of -- of Army Camp Road to 6 Matheson Drive and East Parkway Drive, past the second 7 driveway. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the Park, part of the Park as 10 well. All right. And just for the record, again, this 11 is taken in and around the year 2000, so I appreciate 12 that it's not identical in terms of -- as what you saw in 13 1995. 14 Perhaps we can make this -- this map an 15 exhibit, just for the record. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1486, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1486: Aerial digital map of sandy 19 parking lot area. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Thank you. And would you be able to, 23 with your laser pointer, indicate approximately where you 24 saw this person when he was on the ground, or is -- is 25 that -- the general vicinity?


1 A: No. 2 Q: No, you can't? 3 A: I can't. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: For a couple of reasons. I -- I 6 didn't have a clear sense of my exact position, and this 7 map is -- is old. It would be reasonable. 8 Q: All right. Fair enough then. Was he 9 in front of you or to -- can you tell us where he was in 10 relation to you? 11 A: More directly to my right, than in 12 front. It may have been a little to the front, but it 13 was to the right, definitely. 14 Q: And can you tell me what -- what way? 15 Park side? Lane side? 16 A: Sorry, towards Army Camp Road, in 17 that direction. 18 Q: Towards Army Camp Road? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: To my right. I would have been 22 facing -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- the Park at that moment. 25 Q: Fair enough.


1 A: And it was to my right, which would 2 be Army Camp Road. 3 Q: Okay. And approximately how many 4 feet away was he? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: I'd be guessing and it wouldn't be 9 fair. It was -- it was viewable. 10 Q: It was viewable. 11 A: Would you like an approximation? 12 Q: That's all right. And how much of 13 this man could you actually see? 14 A: I saw arms and legs flailing. I have 15 a sense of a torso. I don't recall seeing his head. 16 Q: Do you recall whether you saw any 17 object in his hands? 18 A: I didn't see -- I don't recall seeing 19 any objects in his hands. 20 Q: Do you know approximately how many 21 officers you recall surrounding him? 22 A: It was more than two (2); my sense is 23 three (3) or four (4). 24 Q: All right. And what did the police 25 officers appear to be doing in relation to this man?


1 A: They were somewhat bent at the waist 2 over top of him. And it looked like, to me, they were 3 looking for an opportunity to grab him for the purpose of 4 handcuffing, at that moment. 5 Q: Did you see any of the police 6 officers with their batons in their hands? 7 A: No, I did not. 8 Q: Did you see any -- any police 9 officers striking at this man, whether it was with a hand 10 or baton or 11 -- or kick of a -- by a leg, or anything like that? 12 A: No, I did not. My -- my look at him, 13 again, was for a couple of seconds. 14 Q: All right. And did you hear any 15 sounds emanating from this man? 16 A: No. There -- I -- I couldn't hear 17 anything specific from that area. It was just a din of 18 clashes and thwacks and thuds, and we were being hit by 19 projectiles as well at this time. It was -- it was a 20 battle. 21 Q: Now do -- did you -- were you able to 22 identify who that person was at the time? 23 A: At the time, no. 24 Q: Did you subsequently come to know his 25 name?


1 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: And what was his name? 3 A: They called him Slippery, Cecil 4 Bernard George. 5 Q: Thank you. And you indicated that 6 you -- you yelled at the police officers -- well first of 7 all let me ask you: 8 Do you know, were they members of the 9 arrest team or were they members from the contact or 10 cover squads? 11 A: I don't know for sure. 12 Q: Do you recall whether they had their 13 shields? 14 A: The couple I have in my minds eye did 15 not have a shield in their hand, which doesn't mean they 16 couldn't have set it down, so. 17 Q: But you didn't see any? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. And as I recall the 20 arrest team did not have shields? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Okay. Why did you tell them to -- 23 why did you say to the -- or say that you told them to 24 get Mr. George out of here because it was not -- it was 25 not a good idea to cuff him there?


1 A: Well we were engaged in -- in a 2 number of fights at that moment in time. We had 3 projectiles, objects being thrown at us and landing on 4 us. And as I just indicated, even the K-9 officer had to 5 be shielded because of the objects that were coming in. 6 And it was for our safety as well, Get him 7 out of there. And our own officers, because with him 8 still there we -- we couldn't back up as a unit. He had 9 to be moved. 10 Q: And I take it from your comment that 11 you didn't see any shields being put -- placed over Mr. 12 George to shield him from any projectiles? 13 A: I didn't -- no, I didn't see anything 14 right on to of him. Again, please, it was a two (2) 15 second look. 16 Q: Fair enough. To your knowledge, were 17 you orders carried out? Was he immediately removed? 18 A: I didn't see him leave, but next I 19 looked over he was gone. 20 Q: Okay. And do you recall how -- what 21 period of time would have elapsed? 22 A: Very shortly thereafter. 23 Q: But you didn't see him physically 24 being taken away from the sandy parking lot? 25 A: No.


1 Q: All right. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: All right. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Can you describe what -- what you -- 10 what was going through your mind as you were engaged with 11 the -- the First Nation individuals in the course of this 12 four (4) minute interval? 13 A: Specifically, no. No. 14 Q: At this stage -- you indicated 15 earlier that -- that the preliminary characterization of 16 the crowd, in your mind, was aggressive; to use one (1) 17 of the four (4) categories -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- that you have indicated. Did that 20 assessment change at any time during the course of this 21 encounter? 22 A: Yes. It became a -- a riotous, 23 assaultive, explosive situation. 24 Q: And at what point, in time in your 25 judgment, did it become a -- a riotous -- riot situation?


1 A: Well, by definition, when the clashes 2 started, I suppose. In practicality, we were destined 3 for a confrontation when the occupiers left the 4 Provincial Park and came towards us. So I mean, I want 5 to be clear here, we were backing up. We were 6 disengaging. 7 And had the occupiers not left the Park, 8 and attacked us, it wouldn't have happened. 9 Q: As you had backed up -- as you were 10 backing up, then, did -- did yourself or Staff Sergeant 11 Lacroix communicate or convey in any way to the First 12 Nations individuals that if they stayed in the Park there 13 would be no trouble with the police? 14 A: No, that was not conveyed. 15 Q: Can I ask you why it wasn't conveyed 16 at that time? 17 A: Well, from the Members in the unit, 18 it would have been next to impossible with our shields 19 down, and we did not have persons with megaphones on this 20 particular scene. I can advise the Inquiry that it -- it 21 is now equipment that is available with Public Order 22 Units. 23 I draw an analogy between this and what 24 your question is between making an arrest of an 25 individual who is combative, assaultive, and has to be


1 dealt with physically, over an extended period of time 2 and then someone asked me, why didn't I read them their 3 rights? Well, I was rather busy. 4 Did they know what they were under arrest 5 for? Well, they were in the middle of assaulting me. So 6 yes, they should have known, but I didn't tell them 7 specifically. 8 So, the scenario here was a little bit 9 similar in that -- in that regard because we have 10 individuals that have come over the fence and come 11 towards us to engage us, intently. 12 And if it was our -- it was not our intent 13 to enter the Park; that was clear right from a couple or 14 three (3) hours beforehand. It was clear when we got to 15 the park line; we backed up, we disengaged and then we 16 were engaged. 17 Q: So if I understand your -- your 18 answer, your assessment at the time was that the actions 19 of the CMU in advancing and punching out and then 20 retreating back should have sent a message, understood 21 message, that -- that as long as there's no one in the 22 sandy parking lot, there would be no trouble? 23 A: That would have been my take on it, 24 yes. Just -- we're there to keep -- like, people were 25 outside the Park when we were going down the roadway and


1 when we get to the -- the sandy parking lot area they 2 were all inside that I could tell, everyone was inside 3 the Park and we back up. 4 Now, at the one (1) point the one (1) 5 individual did come out to challenge us and our officers 6 ran forward. The person went back inside the Park and 7 then our officers backed up again. 8 So that action in -- in and of itself 9 could suggest to some people, not all, that we're not 10 entering your Park, because we didn't initially, we 11 didn't then, and then we started backing up. If people 12 didn't interpret it that way, I can't explain it. 13 Q: Fine. Commissioner, perhaps we might 14 take the afternoon break at this time? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 17 for fifteen (15) minutes. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 2:47 p.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 3:05 p.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:


1 Q: We were at the -- reviewing the -- 2 the incident concluding the full punchout I recall -- as 3 I recall, or the second punchout and we're at page 8 of 4 the TAC channel transmission. 5 And at 11:02 the following exchange -- or 6 approximately 11:02 -- the following exchange occurs: 7 "LACROIX: Right Contact, close it in, 8 you're going to get caught with this 9 fence behind your back. Right Contact 10 -- Right Cover I mean, Right Cover 11 close to the left." 12 You say: 13 "Back 'em up. 14 LACROIX: Contact Squad back up clear 15 to the road." 16 And then there's an exchange involving the 17 prisoner van and Lima 2 and Lima 1. Lima 1 of course is 18 -- is the Command Post in Forest, right? 19 A: I'm sorry, Lima 1 or -- 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: -- at the bottom? 22 Q: Lima 1, the reference to Lima 1? 23 A: I believe so, yes. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Excuse me.


1 Q: In any event can you just describe 2 for us physically what's going on at this -- over the 3 course of this transmission with the commands by yourself 4 and -- and Staff Sergeant Lacroix? 5 A: What was happening, as we were 6 backing up and we were in the cordon formation, quite 7 spread out, as we got closer to East Parkway Drive right 8 Cover Squad was out quite a distance. In fact, they 9 would have been up Army Camp Road and if they continued 10 back in their current position they would in fact not be 11 on East Parkway Drive, they would be in the ditch and 12 there was a fence there. 13 So they were out -- they were out too far 14 to be able to move back properly and safely. They had to 15 be brought in tighter. 16 Q: All right. And just to give us a 17 sense of where the CMU is located, I take it from that 18 description that at this point in time if you turn 19 around, it's going to be approaching the -- the pavement 20 area at the bend of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp 21 Road; is that fair? 22 A: That's fair, yes. 23 Q: And this is at approximately 11:02 24 and this -- these transmissions are about thirty-three 25 (33) to thirty-four (34) minutes into the recording time


1 from the outset of the deployment. 2 Q: And I'd like you now to go to your 3 notes at page 41, the very bottom of page 41. This is 4 Exhibit P-1484 still. 5 At the very bottom the last line I believe 6 says something like: 7 "We, the OPP, were..." 8 A: Clearly -- 9 Q: And I'm wondering if you can continue 10 and read over to the next page until about halfway down 11 and I'll -- I'll tell you when to stop. 12 A: Okay. 13 "We, the OPP, were clearly not the 14 aggressors here. It was obvious that 15 the Natives were intent on a serious 16 confrontation. Lacroix and I ordered 17 for the CMU to back up. Left Cover 18 Squad was out too far and ended up 19 backing uphill over grassy mound on 20 property to the southwest corner." 21 And I'll point to it on the map here. 22 Q: Yes, the southwest corner is -- 23 A: Which would be the northwest corner. 24 Q: Or the lake side of East Parkway 25 Drive at the junction, if you will, where it turns into


1 Army Camp Road? 2 A: Yes, exactly. 3 Q: Thank you. 4 A: "Right Cover Squad was too far -- 5 were too far out and up Army Camp Road. 6 Repeated orders echoed to close up, 7 become tighter. Two (2) prisoner vans 8 were in the way and had to be moved 9 back to allow retreat." 10 Q: Okay. And I wonder if you would just 11 stop right there. 12 And is it fair to say that this passage 13 reflects roughly what was going on during the time period 14 at about 11:02 as reflected by the TAC channel transcript 15 which we just reviewed? 16 A: Yes, that fits well and my comment 17 here on the log, "Back 'em up", would have referred to 18 the prisoner vans. 19 Q: All right. Thank you. All right. 20 And then can you -- the next -- the next entry is at 21 11:03 approximately at -- on the TAC channel transcript 22 page 8, says: 23 "MALE: 10-4. 24 LACROIX: Shots fired. Shots fired." 25 And then I'm advised that it was revised


1 yesterday by Staff Sergeant Lacroix to say the next line 2 was also: 3 "Shots fired. Shots fired." 4 So it's repeated? It's not in your 5 transcript, but it's been corrected. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: All right. And: 8 "Male yelling [brackets] (sound of 9 gunfire) and revving engine." 10 Lacroix -- it's been noted that the male, 11 "Hold your fire", is Lacroix. And just stopping there 12 then. 13 I'd like you to explain as best as you can 14 to the best of your recollection what transpired over the 15 next minute or so as reflected by this transmission and 16 having reference to your notes at page 42 about halfway 17 down? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Thank you. 20 A: It was at about this moment that the 21 -- I observed a large school bus which was in the Park 22 started to drive forward and it rammed the large garbage 23 dumpster that was in front of the fence-line. 24 I wrote: 25 "To my shock and amazement the bus


1 accelerated at us, pushing the bin." 2 That was the garbage bin. I recall 3 thinking at first that the bus was going to brake and 4 with the speed that had developed this bin was going to 5 roll off the front end and then tumble down the roadway 6 at us. But the bin itself didn't stay flush to the front 7 of the bus, and it -- it went to the left or towards the 8 Army Camp Road; in that direction. 9 It just kind of peeled off the front of 10 the bus. The bus accelerated at us. 11 "I ran left [which would be towards the 12 water side of the roadway] and I drew 13 my pistol. I thought for sure someone 14 was going to be killed as the bus 15 neared our men." 16 Would you like me to keep reading? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: "I kept wondering why someone wasn't 19 shooting the bus to stop it. I didn't 20 have a good shot as I was at about 7:00 21 to eight o'clock to its path with too 22 many officers in the way." 23 And then I have an entry which in -- in 24 time order occurs beforehand; I will skip that -- 25 Q: Well, may --


1 A: -- if you prefer? 2 Q: No, why don't you just indicate what 3 it is now. 4 A: All right. Well, just before the bus 5 came I was struck with an object in the -- in the left 6 shoulder area which -- which gave a numbing feeling to my 7 arm and hand. I remember I went down to a knee briefly. 8 Got back up. And as I was getting back up 9 there was -- I was assaulted by an unknown individual -- 10 which clubbed and my shield took the blow. Then the 11 individual disappeared again. I would have been in a 12 position where there was some bush, trees to the water 13 side of where I was standing which would be to my -- 14 Q: Is this in or around East -- East 15 Parkway Drive or back in the sandy parking lot? 16 A: This was in the -- in the East 17 Parkway Drive piece. 18 Q: Okay. Yes. And then going back to 19 the bus -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- having exited the Park? 22 A: "The bus drove through our officers 23 more to the right half of the roadway." 24 Now, the right half is my right half. 25 From the driver of the bus' point of view he's on the


1 wrong side of the road. 2 Q: All right. So on the field side of 3 the road? 4 A: I'm sorry? 5 Q: Is the bus on the field side of -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- East Parkway Drive at this point? 8 A: That's correct. 9 "Members were scrambling for safety. I 10 was at the left bush line and was 11 fumbling to put my pistol back in the 12 holster and had done -- just done so 13 when the car with rectangular 14 headlights came next." 15 So this is one right after the other. 16 Q: All right. And you're still on East 17 Parkway Drive and is -- is the bus now past you going 18 towards the TOC? 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: And now you see the car. Is that 21 behind you or in front of you at the Park side? 22 A: In front of me; it's coming from the 23 sandy parking lot area. 24 Q: All right. Thank you. 25 A: "It seemed to lurch a few times and


1 then it too accelerated at us. I 2 redrew my pistol as the car neared us 3 but again couldn't fire a clear shot. 4 I saw the car go by me in the center of 5 the roadway and veer right at the last 6 moment --" 7 Q: Now -- 8 A: "-- strike --" 9 Q: I'm sorry, right would be towards -- 10 A: The water side. 11 Q: -- the -- the lake side of -- 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: -- East Parkway Drive? 14 A: Towards the lake side. 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: "-- striking a group of officers. I 17 saw one (1) officer fall over onto the 18 hood and another officer fly back in 19 the air. One (1) was on the ground to 20 my right, about 6 to 8 feet away. 21 The car stopped as he hit them, then 22 reversed." 23 I'll stop for a moment reading from my 24 notes, and I can point out that the officer that was on 25 the ground was -- his -- his arms were up on the hood of


1 the car, he was on the ground, his butt would be on the 2 ground. 3 My recollection is that his legs were 4 splayed such that one would have been on the outside of - 5 - of the vehicle, the other would be underneath the 6 engine block. 7 And had this car come about another metre, 8 it likely would have crushed him. 9 Q: And was -- was he on the driver's 10 side or passenger side of the front end of the vehicle? 11 A: Passenger side. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: Passenger right front corner. 14 Q: Did you know -- could you identify 15 this officer? 16 A: At that moment no, but I -- I know it 17 to be Officer Mark Cloes. 18 Q: All right. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I had no idea of how badly anyone was 23 hurt. The car reversed about 30 feet and stopped more to 24 the right side of centre and his wheels turned away from 25 me.


1 Q: And we're just at the top of page 44 2 for those following. 3 Q: I was certain he was about to drive 4 at my officers again. I had a clear view from a seven 5 o'clock position, maybe 20/25 feet away. 6 I had my pistol out at that point and I 7 was aiming at -- at the -- in line with where the driver 8 would be sitting, which was in line with the right front 9 corner of the vehicle, based on how it was positioned. 10 Q: And -- and the car at this time is -- 11 is on what side of East Parkway Drive? 12 A: On the field side. 13 Q: All right. And is it closer to the - 14 - is it between you and the Park, if I can put it that 15 way? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: In other words, is it to your left? 20 A: It's -- it's a little forward of 21 where I was standing towards the Park, yes. 22 Q: Okay. Yeah, all right. 23 A: A small bit of an angle. 24 "Just as I was about to fire, I saw an 25 intense small flash of light from the,


1 I'll call it the field side of the car, 2 beyond where the car was but in towards 3 the field direction." 4 Q: And this is the field direction, 5 being in or around the corner of Army Park -- Army Camp 6 Drive (sic) and East Parkway Drive? 7 A: I couldn't be sure, but it was in 8 that direction, beyond the car. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Away from the water, towards the 11 field. 12 Q: Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: "And I saw this intense small flash 17 of light and I heard gunshots. I 18 fired, what turned out to be four (4) 19 rounds, at the suspect's car's right 20 front corner, hoping to disable it or 21 the driver." 22 I had only seen one (1) silhouette in 23 the car." 24 And I have here: 25 "My sense was that it was a male."


1 Continue? 2 Q: I think you indicate next, just 3 briefly: "I had absolutely no --" 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: "-- view of the driver or occupant." 6 A: Yes. 7 "I had absolutely no view of the driver 8 or occupants, if any, of the school 9 bus." 10 And that's commenting as to when it -- 11 when it went past. 12 "As, and just after I fired, I heard 13 multiple gunshots being fired by 14 multiple people. I stopped firing 15 because people started into my view and 16 the car started reversing." 17 Q: Is this now reversing towards the 18 Park? 19 A: That'S correct. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: "There was a short lull. Then I 22 heard a couple of shots. I saw a 23 figure, a man, at the elbow of the 24 road, fall to his right knee in a 25 spinning motion.


1 He appeared to be holding a stick or a 2 pole. And my first thought was that he 3 had been shot. But he seemed to 4 stumble away back towards the Park 5 fence-line, and I believed he only 6 stumbled in his haste to retreat. 7 Q: All right. Maybe we will, for the 8 moment, just stop there and we'll continue in -- in a few 9 minutes. 10 But just to have a sense of the time that 11 these events, that you just described, transpired, 12 approximately how long did all that full events -- series 13 of events take place? Do you have any sense of that? 14 A: I'm sorry, I don't. It -- it would 15 have a short period but at the time it seemed like 16 forever. 17 Q: Fair enough. And just to help us 18 visualize what you have now described, I wonder if we 19 could please put a copy of Inquiry Document 1004692 on 20 the screen. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Yes. And just for the record it's 25 Exhibit P-1485. This is -- we're just having a few


1 difficulties here. But the map is also behind you and 2 it's the -- the diagram that you made markings on as part 3 of the SIU investigation on September 25th, 1995. 4 And did you have an opportunity to refresh 5 your memory by reviewing this document prior to coming 6 today? 7 A: The diagram? 8 Q: Yes, the diagram. 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And does it accurately depict the -- 11 the various markings and descriptions as -- as were your 12 best recollection as of September the 25th, 1995? 13 A: Yes. Yes. The only one piece in the 14 diagram that I don't want confused, is that I -- I did 15 not see -- I have an indication on here of -- of an end 16 point to the direction where the bus stopped, then 17 returned from. 18 That was just simply to show an end point. 19 I -- I don't know exactly, or I couldn't even guesstimate 20 how far the bus went by my position on East Parkway Drive 21 before it reversed. 22 Q: You were just simply -- was the last 23 place you saw it, or does it just indicate that it went 24 past you? 25 A: It indicates it went past.


1 Q: Just that it went past you. All 2 right. So you never saw how far the bus ultimately 3 advanced before it reversed? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Okay. And subject to that comment, 6 it otherwise reflects your recollection. 7 A: Yes. I -- I've reviewed it, it's a 8 fair representation. 9 Q: All right. Now bear with me, but I'm 10 going to try and assist, and perhaps read some entries, 11 and then you can just tell us. 12 And we'll start with the -- what they 13 represent. We'll start with that -- I'm pointing now to 14 a rectangular object on the far right side and the 15 notation attached to it is: 16 "Location where I saw a bus -- where I 17 first saw a bus, it was parked in --" 18 A: With. 19 Q: Sorry: 20 "-- with lights on. Assume engine 21 running." 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And so is this where you saw the bus 24 when you first approached the fence, early on in the -- 25 in the engagement?


1 A: Yes. It -- it shows it facing our 2 direction. 3 Q: This way? All right. The lights 4 were over here? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And the 'X' ahead of it, at -- at the 8 fence-line, represents the dumpster. 9 Q: All right. And the notation says: 10 "Garbage dumpster that bus rams." 11 And that's -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- the notation there and that's 14 accurate? 15 A: Yes, it is. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: There's an excellent suggest by our 21 counsel. Perhaps you would -- just to help you, because 22 I -- I certainly can't read what's on the screen. 23 The map behind you I think is quite clear. 24 Maybe you could just take it and physically -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- put it in front of you. And then 2 you can -- you can help me as well, in case I get it 3 wrong. Is that helpful? 4 A: That's great, thank you. 5 Q: All right. And here, this point -- 6 now you're going to have look up for a minute, there's a 7 notation: 8 "General path of bus as it drove at 9 CMU." 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: So you're from here, to here, to this 12 direction. 13 A: I'm sorry, could you repeat that? 14 Q: I'm sorry. The bus starts here. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: It goes through the bin. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: It travels across the sandy parking 19 lot in this approximate direction -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- towards the CMU? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And then the bus continues by to this 24 general location past you. 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And here it says: 2 "General path of bus coming and then 3 reversing back to Park." 4 A: Yes. 5 "Coming in then reversing back to 6 Park." 7 Q: Coming in and reversing. Okay. And 8 just for a point of reference, you are approximately here 9 when the bus passes you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Is that about right? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: All right. And -- and then the last 14 notation with respect to the bus is about here, I 15 believe. 16 "Approximate location where I last..." 17 Perhaps you could read that for me, I'm 18 sorry. "...where I last recall 19 watching car..." 20 A: "Withdrawing." 21 Q: "...withdrawing towards the Park and 22 also --" 23 A: "Approximate location where I last--" 24 Q: "-- where I last saw a bus." 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: Okay. All right. So that -- in 2 other words you didn't see them -- either of them, 3 actually, return -- enter -- re-enter the Park. 4 A: No, I did not. 5 Q: That's where you last see them. 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: All right. And then with respect to 8 the path of the car -- okay, bear with me here. 9 This spot here. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: It says: 12 "Location where I first saw car coming 13 at us." 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: So this was when you first pick up 16 the car, it's already -- this is already on East Parkway 17 Drive at this point? 18 A: No. That's -- it was still in the 19 sand at that point. 20 Q: It isn't -- okay. And just entering 21 -- that's right, here's the bend here. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Good. All right. And 24 then the -- the general path of the car is this way? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: And the notation is: 2 "General path of car as it drives at 3 the CMU members." 4 Right. And then you are here and there's 5 a notation, it says: 6 "Approximate location where our -- 7 where car hits CMU members." 8 Right here? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And so it's on the -- the Park side 11 of the road. And does it actually veer around you, so 12 that you are now on the passenger side of the car? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: When you see it hit the officers? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: All right. And you've described 17 that. And -- and then it backs up to this approximate 18 location? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: That is -- perhaps you could just 21 read that notation for me. It's cut off of my -- my 22 sheet. 23 A: I'm sorry, which one? 24 Q: After it reverses back. 25 "So the approximate location of car --"


1 A: Oh. When I fired at it. 2 Q: When you fired at it. 3 A: "Fired on it," is what it reads. 4 Q: Okay. And I note that the car is on 5 the field side of the road with a -- this is the back -- 6 the back is towards the Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: The front headlights are towards the 9 TOC, but it's on a slight angle towards the centre of the 10 road? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you're across about 20 to 25 feet 13 across the road from it and you shoot across the hood, do 14 you? 15 Or you attempt to shoot across the hood 16 from the passenger side, front corner, to where you 17 thought the driver would -- should be? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And I say where you thought the 20 driver should be because, in fact, could you see the 21 driver of the vehicle at this time? 22 A: No, I could not. 23 Q: All right. All right. And then we 24 had already indicated that it's back over around here 25 where you lose sight of -- of both the car and the bus,


1 and you don't see either of them re-enter into the -- 2 into the parking -- sandy -- I'm sorry, into the Park? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Okay. And then there's one (1) other 5 location -- let me check it out here -- I don't know if I 6 -- do I have that right? 7 At one eighty-two point six (182.6) 8 approximately -- or eighty-two point six (182.6) 9 location: 10 "where I saw a person I believed was 11 shot". 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And when you saw that person you were 14 still back over on the other side of the road where the - 15 - the car has struck the CMU officers; is that right? 16 A: In that general area. I'd actually, 17 at one point here, ended up in that opening, the driveway 18 opening just to the TOC side of where that 'X' is. 19 Q: Maybe you could just use your laser 20 pointer -- 21 A: Sure. 22 Q: -- and show -- show us. 23 A: Ended up just a few more feet -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- to the south. I'm sorry, to the


1 west -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: -- or towards the TOC. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: The reason I recall that is because 6 at one point I remember looking -- realizing I was in a 7 driveway. I looked through and it was open and it 8 clearly -- it opened in behind and on either side of 9 that, there was a significant amount of bush and tree 10 growth. 11 And I recall having a chill go up my spine 12 that we were accessible by someone doing an end run on us 13 at this point and that this was not a good position to be 14 in; that we were subject an attack from the rear from 15 this location. 16 And it just -- I recall that very 17 distinctly and it left me feeling, with everything else 18 that was going on, it just sent a chill up my spine in 19 addition to everything else that was happening. 20 Q: All right. And looking at this map, 21 can you just point out the general area where you saw the 22 intense light prior to discharging your firearm? 23 A: It would be in line in this general 24 area here. I don't know how far back it was, but in this 25 general area, the field side.


1 Q: All right. So, again, the field side 2 in the -- the corner, if you will, the corner of, more or 3 less, East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road but in the 4 field section, abutting that corner; is that -- is that 5 fair? 6 A: Yes, that's fair. 7 Q: And -- okay. Thank you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: All right, thank you. I just wanted 12 to give a general overview so that people had a sense of 13 -- of the path of the various cars and what happened, the 14 car and the bus and the person that you -- you saw who 15 you thought was shot then. 16 And first of all, just going back, in the 17 chronology of your -- your testimony, when the car come - 18 - the bus comes by you and you drew your pistol, first of 19 all can you tell me what calibre bullets you had in your 20 pistol? 21 A: It's a .40 calibre ammunition that we 22 use. It's a Sig Sauer P-229 pistol. 23 Q: All right. And was it -- was it 24 fully loaded when you deployed on this mission? 25 A: Yes. The magazine carries twelve


1 (12) rounds, or the clip carries twelve (12) rounds, and 2 you can load one in the spout which I -- which I do, 3 which makes it a thirteen (13) shot weapon at that time. 4 Q: Okay. Before you have to reload it. 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: All right. And where were you in 7 relation to the bus and when you drew your -- your 8 pistol? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I was further up the roadway, towards 13 the Park than where the 'X' is on the diagram, and I was 14 more center of the roadway. 15 Q: Okay. And as the -- 16 A: The -- 17 Q: Oh, sorry. 18 A: I was just going to add, the -- the 19 assault that I took at that location was almost 20 instantaneous or just a moment, like a split second later 21 is when the bus came, so it's -- it's all happening quite 22 quickly. 23 But I was probably center road or left 24 center roadway or water side roadway. It's a small road 25 to begin with, so we're -- we're splitting hairs here.


1 But I was on the road -- I was on the 2 prevent when -- when I was assaulted and then I was on 3 the -- in the pretty much the same spot when the bus 4 started towards us. 5 Q: Okay. And -- and you said that -- 6 with your -- with your gun drawn what was going through 7 your mind at the time was why wasn't someone shooting at 8 it? 9 And can you just tell me why that thought 10 came into your mind, why you though somebody should be 11 shooting at the bus? 12 A: Well, it was very evident that 13 someone, in my mind, was going to get killed unless the 14 bus was stopped and unless the driver was stopped from 15 continuing his path. 16 Q: And how fast was the bus going as it 17 went by you? 18 A: I've given this a lot of thought and 19 with simple mathematics considering a 100 yard dash and 20 whatnot, 25 to 30 kilometres per hour. 21 Q: Did you try to -- to run alongside it 22 or -- or catch up to it? 23 A: No, I did not. 24 Q: So you stayed stationary, more or 25 less?


1 A: More or less. I -- I moved out of 2 its way -- 3 Q: Right. 4 A: -- right to the bush line. 5 Q: Okay. And based on your observation 6 were there any officers in -- in immediate danger as a 7 result of the -- the bus when it passed you and -- and 8 continued along East Parkway? 9 A: There were an uncountable number of 10 officers in immediate danger. 11 Q: Did you see any -- did you see any 12 police officers actually struck by the bus as it went 13 past you? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: Okay. Now, what side of the bus were 16 you on when it went by you? Or, sorry, what -- what side 17 of the bus were you located on the street when you -- 18 when it went by you? 19 A: What I could see? 20 Q: No, what -- what side -- were you on 21 the passenger side or the driver's side when it went by 22 you the first time? 23 A: I was standing in a position to see 24 the passenger side. 25 Q: Okay. And what, if anything, did you


1 -- could you see any of the occupants of the bus? 2 A: No, I -- I mentioned that moments ago 3 that I -- I could see nothing. 4 Q: All right. Did you see any firearms 5 protruding from or visible inside the bus? 6 A: I couldn't see that. 7 Q: Did you see any muzzle flash or 8 evidence of -- of gunfire emanating from the bus? 9 A: I -- I did not. 10 Q: All right. And why didn't you take a 11 shot at the bus? 12 A: There were officers between me and 13 the bus. I was -- I was firing single handed as well, I 14 wasn't -- I wasn't firing with two (2) hands. And it 15 just wasn't practical or safe to do so at that moment. I 16 certainly didn't want to strike one (1) of my officers 17 with a round and it just wasn't practical. 18 Q: All right. And once it goes by you 19 in a direction towards the TOC, then you -- you take note 20 of -- of the car; is that fair? 21 A: That's fair. 22 Q: And so you're now -- your -- your 23 attention is turned away from the bus and to the car. 24 And could you see at any point any of the -- any of the 25 occupants of the car aside from the silhouetted driver?


1 A: That's all I could make out. 2 Q: All right. And could you estimate 3 how fast the car was travelling as it approached you as - 4 - and just prior to it striking the police officers? 5 A: I have it my notes but I've been 6 asked this question before and it's -- I believe it was 7 20 to 25 kilometres per hour. I'd have to double-check 8 but it was certainly at a -- at a pace. You'd be -- 9 you'd be hard pressed to keep up with it over a long 10 distance. It wasn't creeping along. 11 Q: And -- and at this point in time do 12 you still have your visor down? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what if any factors -- were there 15 any factors that were compromising your ability to see, 16 aside from the visors? 17 A: Well, there was on and off times when 18 -- when lights would hit your eyes, same as if you're 19 driving down the roadway with an -- an oncoming vehicle 20 and it takes a moment to -- to regain your -- your sight. 21 So that was happening -- happening intermittently pretty 22 much throughout this entire time. 23 Q: And why didn't you -- at the time 24 that the -- the car struck the officers that you saw did 25 -- did you consider those officers to be in severe


1 danger? 2 A: I did. 3 Q: And did it occur to you that -- that 4 you should be shooting on this car at this time? 5 A: I followed the car in with my weapon 6 pointed at it. I just didn't have the -- the opportunity 7 or feel the opportunity was right to fire when I -- up 8 until the point that I actually did. 9 Q: All right. And what -- what factors 10 suggested to you that it would not have been prudent to 11 fire, that you couldn't reasonably fire at the car prior 12 to the point in which you did? 13 A: Well, there just simply -- there were 14 officers within view, it was bearing down on officers to 15 my -- to my right. And it -- it sounds rather clinical 16 today here but at the time it was very -- it was 17 difficult to appreciate the -- the gravity of all that 18 was happening and taking place, but it was a -- it 19 happened in a very brief period of time. 20 I remember following the -- the vehicle 21 in. I didn't fire. And at the point that the officers 22 were struck and were right there, I'm not going to fire 23 at that point because they're right there. 24 When the vehicle backs up, I'm not going 25 to fire if he's leaving. He doesn't pose an imminent


1 threat at that point. But due to his position and how 2 his -- his wheels were facing, it was -- it was my sense 3 that he was going to take another run at our officers and 4 had the opportunity at that time to fire and I did. 5 Q: All right. You indicated in the 6 order of sequence, is that it reversed to the other side 7 of the road, you saw a muzzle -- or an intense white 8 flash, you heard gunshots and then you discharged three 9 (3) to four (4) rounds. 10 A: Yes. And -- and from the point of 11 seeing that -- that flash, to the gunshots, to when I 12 fired, probably was a quarter second. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Half second. 15 Q: And do you know now how many rounds 16 you did in fact discharge at the car? 17 A: Four (4). 18 Q: And did you discharge any further 19 rounds over the course of that evening? 20 A: No, I did not. 21 Q: All right. Now, we have looked at 22 some photographs of -- of the car in question and have 23 not been able to detect any gunshot holes, if you will, 24 on the passenger side of the vehicle, or on the hood, or 25 the front of the car, or -- and the shields and windows


1 seem to be intact. 2 Now, given that you were shooting about 20 3 to 25 feet away, on an angle, from your vantage point, 4 which would have been across the hood from the front 5 passenger side to where the driver seat was, do you have 6 any explanation as to why there are no bullet holes? 7 A: I missed. 8 Q: And perhaps you can just explain -- 9 there's actually a reason for this question -- perhaps 10 you can explain to us lay people -- 11 A: Yes. I -- I don't want to be 12 flippant about it. It's -- 13 Q: No, no. Not at all. And the 14 question certainly begged for the response. But what 15 were the ex --exigent circumstances that would cause you 16 to miss a target such as a car from 20 to 20 (sic) feet 17 away, in which you said you had a clear shot? 18 A: yeah. My sight line was above the 19 fender. And we're -- we're not talking a great area now 20 when you're talking the windshield. And quite 21 conceivably, firing singlehanded, my own tendency on the 22 range is to fire high and left. 23 So that being said, in all probability my 24 shots were too high. 25 Q: Meaning that in likelihood they


1 traveled over the car and somewhere into the field beyond 2 it? 3 A: In that general direction, yes. 4 Q: In that general direction. And I 5 guess you can't provide us with any reasonable 6 guesstimate as to where those bullets would have landed? 7 A: No, I cannot. 8 Q: And nor have you been apprised of any 9 such evidence or information? 10 A: No, I have not. 11 Q: All right. Now, at any time did you 12 see a firearm protruding from the car or visible inside 13 the car? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: Did you see any gunfire or evidence 16 of gunfire emanating from the car? 17 A: From my perspective, no. 18 Q: Can you -- did you get the licence 19 plate number of this car? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Can you estimate the period of time 22 between seeing the first officer struck by the car and 23 discharging your pistol at it -- at it? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 A: Five (5) seconds. 2 Q: All right. Now you indicated that 3 after this event, the car then reversed. Did it continue 4 reversing towards the Park? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you hear a couple of gunshots, 7 did you say? 8 A: Yeah. It was -- it was -- there was 9 probably forty (40) plus or more rounds went off, excuse 10 me, off, just at the moment that I fired, and all manner 11 of shots went off. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: This would have occurred in -- in a 14 very, very short period of time. Then there was a sense, 15 in all that was happening of this -- this brief moment of 16 -- of quiet, and then I heard suddenly a couple more 17 shots. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: And as I'm looking at the car, which 20 was across the road, as -- as you saw in the diagram, in 21 my field of vision I'm looking at the car but still I can 22 see movement. I saw movement and then I focussed on that 23 movement and saw the back of an individual that was 24 spinning, going down to the ground to his knee and then 25 back up and then away.


1 Q: And at the time, did you recognize 2 this individual? 3 A: No, I did not. 4 Q: Did you come to know the identity of 5 this individual? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: And who was it? 8 A: Dudley George. 9 Q: And I want you to just, very -- as 10 carefully as you can, explain to me what you saw as you - 11 - as you turned your attention to this individual? 12 A: Well, as I said, it was the movement 13 that got my attention. 14 Q: In your peripheral vision? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And is this to your -- 17 A: To my left. 18 Q: To your left? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Towards the apex or the -- the corner 22 of the roadway. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: What I did see was the individual 25 holding something, but I couldn't see, again the person


1 face on; what I was seeing was from his backside. 2 Q: The backside. All right. 3 A: Yeah. Arms in a position -- arms 4 were in a position to his front. And I saw an object, 5 the extension of an object up over his shoulder. It had 6 the configuration or the shape of a pole or a stick, or 7 an object of similar dimension. 8 Q: All right. And can you be a little 9 more precise or are you able to today, eleven (11) years 10 later, describe the physical object that you saw above 11 the shoulder? 12 A: No, it was -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: -- a pole or a stick in appearance. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: And I -- again I could only see what 17 was above his shoulder. I did not see the individual 18 front side. 19 Q: All right. And at any -- and then 20 you indicated that when you first saw this individual he 21 had -- he was down -- he had stumbled to the ground, is 22 that fair? 23 A: Yes. He was turning away from me, in 24 the midst of doing that, in a clockwise motion, go down 25 to his knee, and then back up, almost immediately, bent


1 over at the waist. And then I -- I stopped watching 2 him. 3 I first thought, yes, this person had been 4 shot, but then he was up so quickly I didn't -- I 5 discounted that. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And then the bus was coming, people 8 were yelling, and I didn't watch that individual anymore, 9 I paid attention to staying out of the way of the bus 10 that was backing up through the roadway. 11 Q: And at any point in time did you see 12 the individual frontward facing? 13 A: No, I did not. 14 Q: All right. Did you see what happened 15 to the object that he was apparently carrying? 16 A: No, I did not. 17 Q: All right. And at the time you saw 18 it, what did you think that object to be? 19 A: I thought it was a -- a pole or a 20 stick; that's how it registered with me. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: We had just been -- had done a lot of 23 conflict and battle with individuals with poles, sticks, 24 clubs, baseball bats, those types of objects, and -- and 25 it struck me and registered with me, at that brief moment


1 in time, as being just another club, pole, or stick. 2 Q: All right. And did you make a note 3 of this object in your notes? 4 A: Yes. I -- I use, I believe, the very 5 same terms. 6 Q: And stick or pole, was it? 7 A: Yes. At the bottom of page 44 of my 8 notes. 9 Q: Yes. Thank you. And you had -- and 10 you have -- sorry. Is that how you have described this 11 object in all of the -- your -- the subsequent statements 12 that you have given in various court appearances? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And in statements that you've given 15 to the -- in the course of the investigation of this 16 matter? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And if you had thought that what 19 Dudley George had been carrying was a firearm of any kind 20 at the time, would have reacted differently than you did? 21 A: If it had registered as a firearm? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Yes. I -- I suspect I would have 24 maintained focus on him and to -- to see what was next. 25 Q: And -- and that would be because you


1 wouldn't turn your -- your back on somebody with a 2 firearm? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And instead, you made the call that 5 this person was not posing a risk -- a perceivable risk 6 to police officers, and you diverted your attention now 7 to the bus. 8 A: There's not as much of a risk as the 9 person driving the bus back through us, yes. 10 Q: Fair enough. Now did you provide a 11 statement to a Mr. Ron Piers, on or about October the 12 5th, 1997? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: If you go to Tab 32... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: This is -- this is Inquiry Document 19 Number 1004489. And do you recall what -- what the 20 purpose of provid -- well first of all, who was Mr. 21 Piers? 22 A: He was a retired Commissioned Officer 23 from the Ontario Provincial Police. And I understood 24 that he was employed to conduct an investigation for 25 purposes of an appeal.


1 Q: In -- in connection with what matter? 2 A: The Ken Deane matter. 3 Q: And did you provide him with a -- a 4 statement? 5 A: I did. 6 Q: Do you recall what the purpose of -- 7 of your statement was? 8 A: To provide a summary of my 9 observations of that night. 10 Q: All right. And did you do that? 11 A: I did. 12 Q: And are they reflected in the 13 document attached -- or as part of this document attached 14 to the affidavit, dated October 5, 1997? It's a two (2) 15 page statement at the end of that document. 16 A: Yes. I'm just scanning it here, 17 please. 18 Q: Certainly. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Is that the information that you 24 provided to him? 25 A: It -- it appears that way, but


1 however, the October 5, 1997 document information of 2 myself, is attached in the tab area to a document that -- 3 Q: Yes. That you only have part of. 4 A: Dated the 2nd day -- 2nd day of 5 September 1998. 6 Q: Yes, I see that. It's -- you have 7 part of the affidavit of Mr. Piers to which this 8 information which I'm focussing on, the information dated 9 October 5 '97, is attached. 10 A: Yes. But on the top of the page 11 numbered 7, it says my name and -- and September 9, 1997, 12 whereas my typed copy is October 5th, 1997. 13 Q: Okay. Fair enough. I see that. All 14 right. Well perhaps you can just answer -- answer 15 whether you know -- can recall whether this is -- 16 accurately reflects the information you gave to Mr. 17 Piers. 18 A: Again, I -- I -- there's other 19 documents I've seen that I have actually signed, that 20 were handwritten by Mr. Piers. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And I -- this is not in this Tab. 23 Q: All right. Well then we'll just 24 leave it at that and we'll -- we'll move on. 25 And how -- how long did you focus on -- on


1 Dudley George when you saw him on East Parkway Drive? 2 A: Seconds. 3 Q: And can you tell me then what 4 happened after you turned away from -- well, let me ask 5 you this, did you ever see Dudley George again? 6 A: No, I did not. 7 Q: And what did you do after you turned 8 away from him? 9 A: The -- the school bus was reversing 10 back through the roadway. There were officers moving out 11 of the way. There was officers yelling to, Look out. 12 And I recall it passing by where I was 13 standing. And it -- in the map that you did have up on 14 the screen, I pointed out the general area of where I 15 last recall seeing the bus and the car. 16 Q: Yes. And then what happened? 17 A: There was a -- there was a moment 18 where there was a lot of yelling and screaming. It was 19 my sense, briefly, that there was going to be another 20 confrontation with the vehicles. 21 The headlights were lurching, like they 22 were being revved -- the engine was being revved. I 23 yelled out to the -- my -- the group, the officers, the 24 crowd management unit to regroup. And I believe Staff 25 Sergeant Lacroix did the same.


1 There was a call for a -- a check of the 2 members, I have it in my notes as a head count. 3 Q: Yes. And what was the purpose of the 4 head count? 5 A: To find out -- to account for all the 6 officers. That's the -- the squad leaders were asked to 7 account for their members. I wanted to know who was hurt 8 and how badly, et cetera. 9 Q: And what was the result of that head 10 count? 11 A: Everyone was accounted for and there 12 -- and there were no serious injuries. 13 Q: All right. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: And that -- that, to this day, amazes 18 me, that we didn't have serious injuries. 19 Q: How is that? 20 A: With all that was happening, with the 21 all the -- the gunshots, the bus driving at our people, 22 the car hitting people. It -- and considering that it 23 was a rather confined area where all this took place, 24 with a lot of people, I don't know how today that more 25 persons weren't -- weren't seriously hurt or killed.


1 Q: And did you, in the course of this 2 whole engagement, from the outset of the deployment, to 3 the return to the TOC, did you see any First Nation 4 individual with a firearm? 5 A: Myself, no. 6 Q: All right. And did you then return 7 to the -- to the TOC? 8 A: Yes, we did. 9 Q: And did you have any conversations 10 with anyone en route back to the TOC? 11 A: I am sure I -- I had a few words, but 12 as to what they were, I -- I couldn't be specific. 13 Q: Do you recall having a conversation 14 with Staff Sergeant Lacroix on the way back? 15 A: He was my partner, but I don't recall 16 specifically. 17 Q: All right. Do you recall having any 18 discussions with any TRU team members, en route back to 19 the TOC? 20 A: Vaguely, but then again, I can't be 21 specific. 22 Q: Do you recall with whom you spoke? 23 A: I believe it was Officer Deane, but I 24 -- I can't be certain. 25 Q: Do you have any sense as to what the


1 content of that discussion was? 2 A: About the well-being of the unit. 3 Q: Sorry? 4 A: About the well-being of our members. 5 Q: All right. And if you look at page 6 45 of your notes, please. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And this is still in Exhibit P-1484. 9 And perhaps you can just start reading from halfway down 10 where you -- where you left -- where you left off. 11 A: I'm not sure where I left off. 12 Q: That's fair. One moment. Perhaps 13 start four fifths (4/5's) down, at: 14 "I yelled to regroup --" 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: "-- as did Lacroix." 17 A: Yes. 18 "I yelled to regroup, as did Lacroix. 19 I yelled for a headcount, ensuring 20 everyone accounted for. TRU members 21 paralleling us, using flashlights 22 attached to their rifles to illuminate, 23 intermittently, bush and roadway 24 between us and the attackers. All 25 members were accounted for. No serious


1 injuries reported. 2 Had to get the prisoner vans turned 3 around to afford ready egress. Started 4 back as a cordon, but I felt this 5 presented easy target for random shots 6 down the middle of the road. I called 7 for a stack left, repeatedly. This put 8 the CMU to the west, more bush edge, 9 which is the lakeside, in files of two, 10 thus presenting no sizeable target. 11 Lacroix ordered an about face --" 12 Because at that point we were stepping 13 backwards. 14 "Lacroix ordered an about face and the 15 unit made its way back to the mustering 16 area by the Lima 2 Command Post." 17 Q: All right. And, in fact, did -- did 18 Staff Sergeant Lacroix receive an -- an order from 19 Inspector Carson to retreat to the TOC? 20 A: I don't recall specifically. If it's 21 included in the radio log, then it would have happened. 22 I don't know. 23 Q: And if you look at Tab 13, which is 24 the TAC transcript, P-438, page 9. There is at the -- 25 after "Hold your fire."


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Well let me ask you this: 3 When Lacroix says, "Hold your fire," is 4 that the -- the end of the gunshots, as -- as you recall? 5 A: I couldn't tell you. 6 Q: Okay. And then there is a 7 conversation between Lima 2 and Lima 1? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Discussing whether or not an 10 ambulance is going to be sent en route? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you remember anything about that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. And the transmission at 15 the bottom: 16 "Hebblethwaite: Lima 2, prisoner van, 17 to bring it down here to the CMU." 18 Do you have any recollection about that 19 statement, which was made at about 11:03 and forty-five 20 (45) seconds? 21 A: No, I do not. 22 Q: Okay. Then the -- you indicate: 23 "10-4. Bring it here, up behind the 24 prisoner van. Tell it to stay about 25 200 yards back."


1 This is with respect to bringing an 2 ambulance down to the CMU. Do you have any recollection 3 of that? 4 A: No, I do not. 5 Q: And that, for the record, is about 6 thirty-six (36) minutes and fifty (50) seconds into this 7 transcript, or about 11:03, nearly 11:04 p.m. 8 Over at the next page, then Lacroix is 9 asking for a count. Is that referring to the headcount 10 that you advised us of? The top of the page of page 10: 11 "Back behind the van. I want a count. 12 Back behind the van. I want a count." 13 A: It appears that way, yes. 14 Q: And there's a discussion about not 15 sending the ambulance forward to the sandy parking lot 16 area. 17 Do you recall anything about that? 18 A: No, I do not. 19 Q: And that happens at about between 20 11:05 and 11:06, approximately, p.m. And then there is a 21 report at the bottom of page 10, Lacroix to Skinner: 22 "We took gunfire from a car. A bus 23 tried to run us over. We returned 24 fire. We have no casualties that I can 25 count, for everyone seems to be


1 accounted for. 2 SKINNER: Thanks. 3 CARSON: CMU, ah TAC, back off if you 4 can back off and ah come back to ah the 5 TOC site." 6 And that occurs at about 11:07 p.m., or 7 forty (40) minutes into the transcript. 8 Does that refresh your memory at all? 9 A: I have no independent recollection of 10 it. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I don't have any reason to dispute 13 what's -- what's typed here. 14 Q: And then the command: 15 "Back up, back up." 16 Does that -- the command on page 11 for 17 the CMU to now advance back towards the TOC? 18 A: Yes. That would make sense. 19 Q: And, for the record, the last 20 utterance of this transcription is about 11:10 p.m. 21 All right. Now, once you are back at the 22 -- at the TOC can you tell us what -- what happens? 23 What's the first thing that happens? 24 A: Well, we didn't have an office we -- 25 we were gathered in -- in the outdoors, excuse me, the --


1 a grassy area as I recall; just plunked ourselves down 2 and -- and took off our helmets. There was some talk 3 amongst ourselves, Are you okay, just in a supportive 4 fashion. 5 At some point Staff Sergeant Lacroix and I 6 did go over and speak with Inspector Carson. 7 Q: And can you recall what -- what the 8 general content of that discussion was? 9 A: Just gave him an accounting of -- of 10 what had happened. 11 Q: From -- from you perspective? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And then do you have a 14 further briefing at -- at about midnight? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that's at page 47 of your notes? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And who all was in attendance at this 19 briefing? 20 A: Well, it indicated all members and I 21 -- I'm reasonably sure it was everyone that was there; 22 that's TRU, K-9, ERT members. 23 Q: And this was conducted by Inspector 24 Carson? 25 A: Yes, it was.


1 Q: And do you recall what the -- what 2 the content of this briefing was or what the purpose of 3 it was? 4 A: It was not a debrief in an op -- in 5 the sense of an operational review, it was more focussed 6 on the well being of the officers; mental and physical. 7 Q: And perhaps if you look at the 24:00 8 entry could you just read that entry into the record 9 please at page 47 of your notes. 10 A: Yes. 11 "Inspector Carson spoke to all members 12 giving his support and informing us 13 that support services for us and 14 additional officers were en route. 15 Group check of members and group talk. 16 Every person couldn't believe what had 17 happened. 18 Spoke aside briefly with Lacroix 19 and..." 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I believe it says "two (2)--" 24 Q: "Two (2) to three (3) ERT members"? 25 A: "-- two (2) to three (3)[yeah] ERT


1 members who fired their weapons too. 2 We are all tired. Wade [that's Staff 3 Sergeant Lacroix] indicated he would 4 try to have lawyer Norm Peel come to 5 see us in the morning, in the a.m. I 6 departed Lima 2 site on my own in Unit 7 6305. Headed for motel." 8 Q: And you arrived at that hotel at 9 about twenty (20) after 12:00? 10 A: Thirty (30). Thirty (30) minutes 11 past 12:00. 12 Q: Sorry. I misread that. Thank you. 13 And did you, as an officer who had discharged his weapon, 14 did you advise your superior at that time that you had 15 discharged your weapon? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And is that part of your obligation? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: And did you turn over your weapon at 20 that time? 21 A: At that time, no. 22 Q: Why not? 23 A: It wasn't asked for. 24 Q: All right. Once you were back at the 25 hotel then what if anything occurred? I'm looking at


1 your -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- 00:45 entry. 4 A: Yes, I -- there was a cabin at the 5 hotel that we were staying at. Actually it was my cabin. 6 I had asked Sergeant Huntley to step into the -- the 7 bedroom area and at that point I unloaded my pistol in 8 his presence. I removed the clip and ejected the 9 chamber, the chambered round and I placed it all in the 10 dresser drawer. 11 And at that time I hadn't -- I didn't 12 bother to count the rounds that were left in the clip or 13 the magazine but I knew it was full with twelve (12) and 14 a thirteenth chambered round at the start of my shift. 15 Q: And why did you take that action in 16 front of Sergeant Huntley? 17 A: I had discharged my weapon and I 18 wanted a witness to the fact that when I unloaded my 19 weapon it was in a certain state. 20 Q: All right. And at some point, then, 21 is your -- do you turn over your weapon? 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: When was that? 24 A: At 3:45 a.m. which would be September 25 7th.


1 Q: 3:45...? 2 A: A.M. 3 Q: A.M., yes. 4 A: September 7th. 5 Q: And to whom did you do that? 6 A: Inspect -- Inspector Dale Linton came 7 to my room. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: Subsequent to that I obtained the 10 service pistol of Officer Cloes. He was injured, would 11 not be returning to duty, and I've just simply documented 12 the serial number of his service weapon that I then began 13 to carry. 14 Q: And what did you do after that? 15 A: I had a brief amount of sleep and 16 then I -- I don't know the name of the -- or the location 17 where I ended up seeing Mr. Peel at around 7:00 in the 18 morning. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: It was -- I don't know the specific 21 time. It was in that -- in that area. 22 Q: All right. And just before we get to 23 that, if you go to Tab 17 now, please. This is Inquiry 24 document 2005602. 25 It appears to be an excerpt of your notes


1 from pages 48 to 59, I believe, including the last page 2 of your September 7th notes which reflect the September 3 6th entries and your final date of entry is September 30, 4 1995. 5 Are these your notes? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do they reflect your assignments 8 with respect to Ipperwash-related operations? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Yes, I believe they do. I -- I just 13 wanted to be sure that everyone of the days that I was 14 working was at Ipperwash. There may have been a... 15 Q: Some unrelated entries? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: But does it include all of your 18 Ipperwash-related entries? 19 A: Yes, they would appear to. 20 Q: And did you make any alterations, 21 additions or -- or omissions to this document -- these 22 notes, after their creation? 23 A: No, I did not. 24 Q: Can we make this the next exhibit, 25 please?


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-1487, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1487: Document Number 2005602. 4 Handwritten notes entries of 5 George Hebblethwaite, 6 September 08-29, 1995. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: And I want to focus on page 48. 10 There's a paragraph two-thirds (2/3) down, it says: 11 "The above concludes my duties at 12 04:00, September 7, '95 for shift of 13 the 6th of September." 14 Is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then the following entry reads: 17 "7 September shift, spent talking with 18 counsel and investigators and note 19 making. Scheduled ten (10) hour shift 20 at Detachment." 21 And I can't read the rest of it. 22 A: Would you like me to? 23 Q: That'd be great. 24 A: LE-29 which is our daily activity 25 reporting form at the time.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: "To reflect -- to reflect this 08:00 3 to 18:00 and 18:00 to 22:00 OT". 4 Q: Thank you. And... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: You in -- you indicated that you had 9 a meeting with counsel. Is that Norm Peel, on September 10 the 7th? 11 A: Yes, it was. 12 Q: And did you seek him for purposes of 13 obtaining legal advice? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: Thank you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: I understand that you gave an 20 interview to Mark Dew on September the 8th? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And what was the purpose of that 23 interview? 24 A: It was an interview by Mark Dew, 25 doing a parallel investigation with the SIU.


1 Q: If you go to Tab 19, please. Inquiry 2 document number 1002142, headed "Statement of George 3 Hebblethwaite". 4 And it's a three (3) page initial document 5 and attached to it is, appears to be a transcript of an 6 interview given by you on September the 8th at 9:43 p.m. 7 to Mark Dew. 8 And does the contents of that interview 9 accurately reflect your recollection of the events that 10 are reflected there? 11 A: Yes. I've seen the transcript and 12 I've read it, and I -- I have no issues with -- with 13 what's there. 14 Q: And essentially this is an interview 15 that focussed on your recollection of the events of the 16 evening of September the 6th, 1995? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I'd like to make this document 19 the next exhibit, please. 20 THE REGISTRAR: Document number again, 21 please, Ms. Vella? 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry. It's 23 1002142. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. P-1488. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you.


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1488: Document Number 1002142. OPP 2 Anticipated evidence of 3 George Hebblethwaite, 4 September 08, 1995. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: And the document at Tab 12 -- or 20, 8 Inquiry Document 1000324, this appears to be a rough 9 transcription of the same interview that you gave to Mark 10 Dew on -- at 9:43 p.m. 11 Is that right? 12 A: Yes, it appears to be. 13 Q: And if we could make that the next 14 exhibit, please. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1489, Your Honour. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 17 Which one is that? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's at Tab 20. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 20. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Taped interview. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 1489. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1489: Document Number 1000324. OPP


1 taped interview of George 2 Hebblethwaite, September 08, 3 1995. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: I understand that you gave testimony 7 -- evidence at various trials in relation to events 8 arising out of the evening of September the 6th, 1995? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And if we go to Tab 24, this is an 11 excerpt from the proceeding Her Majesty the Queen against 12 NAC, held on March 24th, 1997. And it is -- contains 13 your examination-in-chief and your cross-examination, 14 from page 52 to 110. 15 And did you have an opportunity to review 16 that transcript? 17 A: Yes, I have. 18 Q: And did you answer those questions 19 accurately and honestly when you gave them? 20 A: Yes, I did, to the best of my 21 ability. 22 Q: And do they continue to reflect an 23 accurate recollection of the matters referenced therein? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: I'd like to make that the next


1 exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1490, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1490: Document Number 3000845. R. 5 v. Nicholas Abraham Cottrelle 6 - George Hebblethwaite's 7 evidence (pages 52 to 110 of 8 transcript) March 24, 1997. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: Tab 27, please, Inquiry Document 12 number 1004686, and this is an excerpt of the testimony 13 in Her Majesty the Queen against Kenneth Deane, held on 14 April 9, 1997, and it contains your examination-in-chief 15 and your cross-examination. 16 Again, have you had an opportunity to 17 review this transcript? 18 A: I have. 19 Q: And did you answer those questions at 20 the time honestly and accurately, as at the state of your 21 recollection -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- at that time? And do you adapt 24 these answer today as true and accurate? 25 A: As given at the time, yes.


1 Q: I'd like to make this the next 2 exhibit. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1491, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1491: Document Number 1046886. 6 Proceedings at Trial - R. v. 7 Kenneth Deane - Examination- 8 in-Chief, Cross-Examination, 9 and Re-Examination of George 10 Hebblethwaite (pages 104-167 11 or transcript) April 09, 12 1997. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: And finally Tab 31, please. It's 16 an -- 17 A: I'm sorry? 18 Q: Tab 31. An excerpt of Inquiry 19 Document number -- sorry, this is Inquiry Document Number 20 1004975, it's an excerpt from Her Majesty the Queen 21 against Warren Anthony George and David Abraham George, 22 and it contains your examination-in-chief and cross- 23 examination, from page 199 to 249. 24 And did you have an opportunity to review 25 this transcript?


1 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: And when you gave the answers, did 3 they -- did you answer the questions truthfully and -- 4 and accurately as at the state of your recollection then? 5 A: Yes, it was. 6 Q: And do you adopt those answers as a 7 true and accurate reflection of your memory today? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I would make that the next exhibit, 10 please. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1492, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1492: Document Number 1004975. R. 14 v. Warren Anthony George and 15 David Abraham George 16 Proceedings at Trial, 17 Examination-in-Chief, Cross- 18 Examination and Re- 19 Examination of George 20 Hebblethwaite (pages 199-249 21 of transcript) October 02, 22 1997. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: Tab 34 next, please. This is Inquiry


1 Document 1004684, and it's a statement dated -- sorry, 2 given April 1, 1998, and you were interviewed as a 3 witness officer and -- by the SIU, Special -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- Investigations Unit. And this is 6 in relation to the investigation concerning Cecil Bernard 7 George? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And do you adopt these -- this as an 10 accurate summary of your interview? 11 A: Yes. I -- I read it and it's 12 accurate. 13 Q: Make this the next exhibit, please? 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1493, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1493: Document Number 1004684. 17 Sgt. George Hebblethwaite: 18 Questions and Answers from 19 SIU Interview, April 01, 20 1998. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: I'd like you quickly to go to Tab 11, 24 please? 25 And this has already been marked as


1 Exhibit P-1416, Inquiry Document 1005909. And it appears 2 to be a diagram of a cordon formation involving the CMU 3 of September the 6th, 1995. 4 And I just wanted to know whether you had 5 any input into the creation of this document? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: No, I've -- I don't recall seeing it 10 until recently. 11 Q: All right. And there is an 12 indication as to your location. Do you see that, behind 13 the -- the front Contact Squad? 14 A: In the centre, yes, I do. 15 Q: Yes. And Staff Sergeant Lacroix. 16 Now, do you have any sense as to whether that is accurate 17 or do we -- can you -- can you usefully give us an answer 18 in that respect, given the lack of precision of the -- 19 yeah -- that's right -- as I was saying, given that this 20 doesn't appear to indicate what -- at what point in the 21 operation the cordon formation is supposed to be 22 provided? 23 So can you -- 24 A: This would be the formation. If it 25 was set up on the roadway, without everything happening


1 this would be what the cordon formation would roughly 2 look like. Most times I was to the left of Staff 3 Sergeant Lacroix. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: So I mean -- but this obviously 6 changed as different events occurred. 7 Q: All right. So it's a reasonably 8 accurate depiction as at the -- the march, if you will, 9 or advancement down East Parkway Drive? 10 A: Yes, it is. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: All right. For clarification this is 15 -- is this reasonably accurate with respect to the cordon 16 formation itself? 17 A: Yes. I was just going to point out, 18 if you were to disregard the eight (8) officers listed 19 towards the bottom, Jacklin, Myers, Poole, Zacher, et 20 cetera, the officers Cloes, Rush, and W. Smith comprised 21 the Support or Arrest Squad, which would normally have 22 six (6). And the squad leader was, I believe, Thorne, 23 and Weverink was his support officer. 24 So that unit had five members as opposed 25 to the normal eight (8).


1 Q: All right. So then can you help us 2 at all as to whether -- during the advancement down East 3 Parkway Drive, whether or not the individuals identified 4 here in the positions identified, was accurate, or do you 5 know? 6 A: I have no clear recollection of who 7 was stationed to which squad. 8 Q: All right. That's fine. Thank you. 9 Now, I understand that you continued to have Ipperwash 10 related assignments from September the 8th through to 11 September the 30th, 1995? 12 A: I'm sorry, could you repeat that? 13 Q: I understand that you continued to 14 have Ipperwash related policing assignments, from time to 15 time, from September the 8th to the 30th, 1995? 16 A: I think it extended beyond that. 17 Q: All right. Do you recall when your 18 policing assignments, in relation to Ipperwash, ended? 19 A: Yes. It was in the area of the long 20 weekend in October. 21 Q: Thanksgiving weekend? 22 A: Yes, thank you. 23 Q: All right. And in a general way, can 24 you tell us what the nature of your policing duties were 25 in relation to the Ipperwash matter during this


1 timeframe? 2 A: Maintain the peace and maintain a 3 presence in the area. 4 Q: So were you primarily patrolling the 5 area? 6 A: Some patrol. I was in the Command 7 Post on some occasions, as well. 8 Q: All right. And while you were 9 stationed at Ipperwash, where did you -- where did you -- 10 where were you bunked? 11 A: I know we were bunked at the Pinery 12 Park at the Ranger Camp, during our -- our work times in 13 August. On the evening of September 6th we were bunked in 14 Grand Bend, the name escapes me right now, at a motel. 15 After that I'm -- I'm not sure. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: It was in this area. 18 Q: Okay. Over the course of time from 19 September the 8th to September the 30th, or thereabouts, 20 did you see any mugs or t-shirts tied to Ipperwash? 21 A: I purchased a t-shirt. I don't know 22 if it was before September 30th or not. 23 Q: All right. Was it prior to the end 24 of your Ipperwash-related duties on Thanksgiving? 25 A: I think it was.


1 Q: All right. And do you -- did you 2 happen to keep a co -- your -- your t-shirt? 3 A: I had it in my possession. I -- I 4 have been in the habit in the past, and since then, to 5 collect t-shirts from various major events that I've been 6 at. I have a stack of -- of clothing at my residence 7 that I have been asked on a number of occasions to go 8 through. 9 And late -- or late last year, I don't 10 know if it was in a New Year's/Christmas time, and I was 11 going through a stack of t-shirts and I saw this 12 Ipperwash t-shirt, I -- frankly, I had forgotten I had 13 it. 14 Q: All right. And did you bring that t- 15 shirt with you today? 16 A: I did. 17 Q: I wonder if we could hand up the t- 18 shirt? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And we've handed up a black t-shirt. 23 And can you tell me whether or not this is the -- the t- 24 shirt that you acquired at sometime between September 8th 25 and Thanksgiving?


1 A: In that timeline, yes, it is. 2 Q: Now, can you describe for us the 3 image that is depicted. And perhaps at this time I could 4 ask for the image to be put on the screen so that Counsel 5 can follow you? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: Would you just describe that image 11 for us, please? 12 A: Yes. It's with the writing of 13 Project Maple and indicating the year '95. The red 14 emblem looks like a bit of a 'T' with the gold wings 15 attached to it is the emblem that I recognized as being 16 the TRU team emblem. 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: The 'ERT', which stands for Emergency 19 Response Team, below that. The anvil would show the ERT 20 in support. And the point of the 'T' for the TRU team 21 meets the anvil, and at that location there is a -- an 22 arrow that is broken. 23 Q: All right. Now, did you play any 24 role in designing or procuring this t-shirt? 25 A: No, I did not.


1 Q: Did anyone consult with you with 2 respect to the advisability of procuring this image or t- 3 shirt? 4 A: No. 5 Q: When you purchased the t-shirt, what 6 message did you take from this image? 7 A: I don't even recall if I had seen the 8 t-shirt before I actually paid for it. When I saw it, it 9 -- it didn't -- it didn't register, or I don't recall it 10 registering as any specific thing, I mean obviously the 11 TRU emblem is quite clear. To me the -- the shirt 12 represented, or symbolized a very difficult night, a 13 night that, but for the grace of God, I -- I wouldn't 14 have survived. 15 I did survive, as did the officers that I 16 was working with. And it's -- it was just something that 17 was personal to me. 18 Q: And at the time that you acquired 19 this t-shirt, did you have any concerns about the fact 20 that it depicted, amongst other things, an arrow, which 21 seems to have been pierced by the TRU team's symbol over 22 the ERT -- as you've identified, the ERT anvil as 23 support. 24 A: I frankly don't recall even -- even 25 thinking about -- about that. It was -- it was an


1 emblem. It's there plainly to see, I -- I won't argue 2 that point. But I honestly didn't give it a lot of 3 thought. 4 Q: Do you recall whether you wore that 5 T-shirt from time to time? 6 A: No. I have -- I have T-shirts from 7 different operations, before and since, that I just have 8 tucked away. 9 I don't recall wearing this in public. 10 I've got other T-shirts I have -- from events that still 11 have a price tag on them. 12 Q: Do you recall from whom you acquired 13 this T-shirt? 14 A: No, I do not. 15 Q: Do you have any information as to who 16 was involved in designing or procuring this T-shirt? 17 A: No, I do not. 18 Q: Or the image? 19 A: No. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: In retrospect, do you consider 24 whether or not -- have you considered whether or not this 25 image is an appropriate one for a member of the Ontario


1 Provincial Police to be in possession of? 2 A: Well I can certainly appreciate how - 3 - how this could be seen to be offensive. It -- it was 4 never meant to be offensive in my -- in myself having 5 possession of it. 6 It was again a -- a symbol to me of -- of 7 -- of an evening that was quite traumatic, and a 8 difficult time in my life. 9 And I had it in my possession. I -- I 10 forgot about it. And when I realized I had it, I knew it 11 was an issue and I maintained -- maintained possession of 12 it and -- in case it was asked for here. 13 Q: Now, Commissioner, I'd like to make 14 the image that is on the screen the next exhibit, please. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1494, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1494: Photograph of T-shirt marked 18 "Project Maple '95-ERT". 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: And I wonder, Mr. Millar, if you 22 would put up the next image, please? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: And this appears to be a -- an image 2 of the entire front of the -- the T-shirt that you have 3 in front of you? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You agree with that? 6 A: I do. 7 Q: I'd like to make that the next 8 exhibit, please. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1495, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1495: Photograph of T-shirt marked, 12 "Project Maple '95, ERT" 13 (front). 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: And if we could put the -- the final 17 image on the screen. This appears to be a photograph of 18 the back of the T-shirt. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Do you agree? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I'd like to make that the next 23 exhibit, please. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1496, Your Honour. 25


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1496: Photograph of T-shirt marked 2 "Project Maple'95, ERT" 3 (back). 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: Now, did you acquire any other mugs, 7 T-shirts or souvenirs created in relation to the policing 8 operation or teams at Ipperwash? 9 A: No, I did not. 10 Q: Were you aware -- had you seen any, 11 did you see any other mugs or T-shirts or such items? 12 A: I knew there were mugs. I -- I can't 13 recall specifically what -- what they were and what -- 14 what was on them. 15 Q: And when you saw the mugs, do you 16 recall -- you can't recall what was on them? 17 A: No, I do not. 18 Q: At the time you saw them, do you 19 recall have -- forming any impression, one(1) way or 20 another, as to the propriety of these mugs? 21 A: Again, I -- I have no recollection of 22 what they were. 23 Q: All right. Over the course of time 24 that you were at pine -- the Pinery Park, did you have 25 occasion to see a beer can with a hole in it, filled with


1 sand and a feather, and OPP yellow tape? 2 A: No, I did not. 3 Q: All right. Did you happen to see a 4 cruiser, police cruiser with an applique of a bull's eye 5 and arrow on its side? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Or a photo of it? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you happen to see any cartoons 10 that had, as its subject, First Nations peoples or 11 issues? 12 A: No, I did not. 13 Q: Did you see any remarks on the 14 blackboard which were allegedly offensive or derogatory 15 to First Nations people? 16 A: No. I -- I don't recall there being 17 a blackboard there even. I -- absolutely not. If I had 18 seen something like that it -- it would have -- I would 19 have dealt with it. 20 Q: All right. Do you -- to your 21 knowledge, was there an investigation conducted by the 22 OPP into the procurement of certain mugs and T-shirts -- 23 well, mugs and T-shirts in relation to Ipperwash? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And were you -- did you participate


1 in that process, in any way? 2 A: In what regard? 3 Q: In the investigation process? 4 A: As -- I wasn't involved at all as an 5 investigator or as someone that was spoken with. 6 Q: All right. Were you aware, 7 nonetheless, that interviews were being conducted at the 8 time that they were conducted? 9 A: Only by virtue of the fact I was 10 aware that there had been an inquiry or an investigation, 11 I would assume people would be spoken to. 12 Q: All right. So you -- you acquired 13 that after the fact? 14 A: I'm sorry? 15 Q: Did you acquire that information 16 after the proceeding was concluded, or before? 17 A: I couldn't tell you when I -- when I 18 was aware of that. 19 Q: Did it occur to you that you should 20 advise the OPP of the fact that you had this particular 21 T-shirt? 22 A: No, it did not. 23 Q: And why not? 24 A: It was a personal item, and it wasn't 25 asked if I had it, and I didn't. I -- frankly, I -- I


1 don't recall exactly even when this investigation was. 2 Q: All right. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: All right. Can you tell me what 7 impact the events of the evening of September the 6th, 8 1995 have had on you? 9 A: I prepared a document, if I may read 10 it. 11 Q: Certainly. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: September 6th, 1995 was one of the 16 most... 17 Q: Would you like a few moments? 18 A: Please. 19 Q: Would it be appropriate to have a 20 very brief recess? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. We'll 22 take a short break. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 25


1 --- Upon recessing at 4:38 p.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 4:46 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. Please be seated. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: Thank you. I -- I believe that you 9 had a -- a statement that you wished to read to the 10 Commissioner? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 "September 6th, 1995 was to be one of 13 the most important days of my life. 14 That was the day my daughter started 15 school. I have to admit that I had 16 left Forest the night before so I could 17 be home that morning to witness that 18 special moment. 19 I took my daughter's hand and I walked 20 her to the door of the school. I've 21 never been prouder as a father or as a 22 husband as I was at that moment. 23 When I returned to Ipperwash, the 24 events which took place transformed 25 that day into the worst day of my life.


1 I could never have imagined a day of 2 such extremes; the incredible joy I 3 experienced that morning and the 4 violence and horror of what happened 5 that night. 6 As a police officer, it was the most 7 violent and dangerous experience of my 8 career, before or since. To my 9 knowledge, there's never been an 10 encounter like this in the history of 11 the OPP. 12 When we arrived at the sandy parking 13 lot and the occupiers went back into 14 the Park, I believed that we had 15 completed our task. I thought it was 16 done. Having reached our objective, we 17 were in the process of leaving. 18 Within moments, a finished event turned 19 into a hailstorm. We were withdrawing 20 to the pavement. All of a sudden 21 people were coming over the fence at 22 us. There was dust everywhere, almost 23 like a smoke or a haze. Figures were 24 advancing. 25 I could see their silhouettes --


1 silhouettes more than I could see who 2 they were, due to the bonfires behind 3 them, backlighting them, along with the 4 two (2) vehicles that were in the Park. 5 It was like they were not real. 6 I could see the outlines of weapons in 7 their hands. It was like being in a 8 horror movie. To this day I find it 9 difficult to believe that this 10 happened. It did not make any sense. 11 We were done. We were in the process 12 of leaving. 13 The degree of violence during the 14 confrontation in the sandy parking lot 15 was something I had never seen before, 16 nor since. 17 We train for confrontations but as much 18 as the training tries to simulate an 19 actual event, nothing could come close 20 to this. I could hear the thuds and 21 the thwacks of officers' shields being 22 hit. 23 I saw Wade Lacroix being confronted and 24 struck with such force that his shield 25 split. There was gunfire. There were


1 vehicles driving at us. Confrontations 2 going all around. It was pure and 3 simple raw violence, with clear intent 4 to harm and injure as many officers as 5 possible. Any number of blows could 6 have resulted in serious bodily harm, 7 or worse, to the officers. 8 Just when I thought it couldn't get any 9 worse, the worst was yet to come. The 10 bus started forward, crashed into the 11 dumpster. The gate swung open. The 12 bus was barrelling down on us. The 13 dumpster peeled away and the bus 14 accelerated right towards us. I 15 thought officers were going to be 16 killed. People were scattering, 17 yelling, running for their lives. 18 The bus went by me, then the car 19 appeared. I saw the car hit three (3) 20 officers. I saw one (1) officer bounce 21 off of the car. Had the car gone 22 another metre, another officer would 23 have been crushed. I was so close to 24 this I could have almost touched the 25 fender of the car.


1 I'd never fired shots at someone 2 before. I always knew this was a 3 possibility, but like all officers I 4 prayed this would never happen, that I 5 would never be forced to fire my weapon 6 at a person. I fired and there were 7 more shots and more shots and more 8 shots. 9 These events have had a profound impact 10 on my life. In my quiet moments I 11 revisit that scene, over and over. For 12 years I had nightmares. As a police 13 officer these -- these events cemented 14 in my -- in myself the view that you 15 truly need to expect the unexpected and 16 prepare for the worst. 17 The scope and the magnitude of the 18 violence at Ipperwash that I 19 experienced was beyond pale. It is 20 hard to find words to aptly describe 21 it. 22 I have often wondered whether any of 23 this would have happened if the Federal 24 Government had done what it said it 25 would do and return the Base to the


1 First Nations people in 1994. 2 To this day, I'm deeply saddened that 3 someone died during this event, Dudley 4 George. To this day, I am, to the core 5 of my being, grateful and thankful that 6 none of my officers were seriously hurt 7 or killed. It seems impossible to me 8 that more people, officers or occupiers 9 weren't hurt at Ipperwash on the night 10 of September 6th, 1995. Thank you. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That concludes the 12 examination-in-chief. And I think that it would be 13 appropriate now to canvass the parties for cross- 14 examination. 15 But just before I forget, I'd ask you, 16 Sergeant, to ensure that you bring the T-shirt back on 17 Monday for cross-examination, in the event that any 18 counsel wish to inspect it? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Does 22 anybody have any questions of this officer? Let's do our 23 usual canvass. 24 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Ten (10)


1 minutes. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Ten (10) minutes for 3 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 5 Alexander...? 6 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Twenty (20) to 7 forty (40) minutes. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Twenty (20) to forty 9 (40) minutes for Mr. Alexander. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 11 Rosenthal...? 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Three (3) hours. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Three (3) hours for Mr. 14 Rosenthal. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 16 Scullion...? 17 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: We'll reserve an 18 hour to an hour and a half. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: An hour to an hour and 20 a half for Mr. Scullion. 21 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm also speaking 22 for the First Nation and I'm here to tell you they have 23 asked me to pass on forty-five (45) minutes to an hour. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Forty-five (45) minutes 25 to an hour for the First Nation Chippewas of Kettle and


1 Stony Point. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 3 Mathai...? 4 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: An hour to an hour and 5 a half (1 1/2). 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: An hour to an hour and 7 a half (1 1/2) for Aboriginal Legal Services. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 9 any -- I suppose you won't know until -- 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And a reserve for 11 the -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- a reserve for Ms. 14 Jones. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. Six point 19 three (6.3) to seven point eight (7.8) hours is the 20 estimate. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we 22 should finish on Monday, but I'm not going to start now, 23 I'm not going to start at ten to 5:00. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that's -- 25 that's appropriate.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we're 2 going to adjourn now and we'll be back on Monday morning. 3 Are you okay for Monday morning? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll be 6 back on Monday morning at ten o'clock. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10:00 a.m. on Monday. 8 Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 11 (WITNESS RETIRES) 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 14 adjourned until Monday, May the 15th, at 10:00 a.m. 15 16 --- Upon adjourning at 4:54 p.m. 17 18 Certified Correct 19 20 21 ________________________ 22 Carol Geehan 23 24 25