1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 11th, 2005 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) 25 Jennifer Gleitman )


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) (np) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 9 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 222 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-401 Telecommunications Ten Codes used by 4 OPP in 1993-1995 10 5 P-402 Document No. 7000282 letter from Major 6 General W.B. Vernon, Commander, Dept. of 7 National Defence to Commissioner T. 8 O'Grady OPP re: meeting with Wall & Carson 9 about occupation of Camp Ipperwash Stoney 10 Point Group 118 11 P-403 Document Number 1010495, London Free 12 Press Article, "Camp Ipperwash-Toll 13 Collectors held for Bail Hearing" 167 14 P-404 Document Number 2002648 July 21/93 letter 15 to Sheriff Ed Finlon, London Courthouse 16 from Detective Sergeant M.A. Wright, 17 number 5901 OPP Petrolia Re: Complaint 18 against Mr. Scott Ewart, Licensed Bailiff 167 19 P-405 Search Warrant Camp Ipperwash 1993 20 photos taken by Constable Evans, OPP 21 from helicopter, photos 0302 to 0324 22 CD ROM 204 23 24 25


1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-406 Document Number 2002494 Aug. 24/93 4 Letter to the Commissioner OPP.-Toronto, 5 from J.F.Carson, Inspector OPP Forest 6 Re: CFB Ipperwash/Stoney Point. 208 7 P-407 Document Number 2000990 Sept.24/93. 8 MSGCS Briefing Note, Issue: native 9 demonstration Camp Ipperwash 210 10 P-408 Document Number 2000716, May 02/94 11 letter to the Superintendent OPP 12 Chatham from Detective Sergeant M.A. 13 Wright, OPP. Re: operational 14 plan-occupation of CFB Ipperwash 214 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon convening at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 8 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 morning. Good morning, Deputy Commissioner. 13 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 15 everybody. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we start, I 20 thought perhaps before I forget, we should mark a 21 document that was provided to me, Commissioner, by Mr. 22 Sandler's office, and it's -- I've provided a copy of 23 this to all of the parties. It's a document that lists 24 telecommunication codes used by the OPP back in 1993. 25 And it's in the small -- there it should be in that one


1 on your right hand, Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think I 3 took it out yesterday. That's fine. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The small one that was 5 in your right hand. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 7 think there's anything there. I took it out yesterday. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh. It's gotten -- it 9 looks like this. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think I 11 know the one you mean. There it is. 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Okay. If we could mark that -- I'll 15 ask Deputy Commissioner Carson, this document that's 16 listed telecommunications, it has a number of codes on 17 it. Is that the -- a sheet of the codes in use by the 18 Ontario Provincial Police in 1993 and in 1995? 19 A: That's correct, it's a standard ten 20 (10) code list. 21 Q: It's a standard -- the ten (10) code 22 is a standard list used by police officers? 23 A: It's an international code -- ten 24 (10) code used for transmissions for brief messages for 25 policing.


1 Q: And perhaps that could be marked the 2 next exhibit, it would be Exhibit 401. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 401, Your Honour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 401. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-401: Telecommunications Ten Codes 7 used by OPP in 1993-1995 8 9 CONTINUED BY DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And, another thing I was going to ask 11 you yesterday, when you were in Forest as the Detachment 12 Commander, you were there for approximately four (4) 13 years, did you know Dudley George when you were in 14 Forest? 15 A: Not personally, no. I -- I knew the 16 name, but I didn't know him personally. 17 Q: And Mr. Sam George, did you know Mr. 18 Sam George? 19 A: Yes, I'd met Sam. Sam, I believe at 20 that time was working with Kettle Point in regards to 21 assisting persons with job opportunities, if I'm not 22 mistaken, a -- a counsellor, I believe. And he had 23 attended my office on occasion and, if my memory serves 24 me correctly, we had worked together for some co-op 25 programs, I believe.


1 Q: And if I could take you to Exhibit 2 397, please, it's the book of notes and your notes. If 3 you get both of them out in case we have a problem. It's 4 the book of notes dealing with 1990, 1993, and 1994. 5 At Tab 3, page 38, it's June 1st, 1993... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Yes? 10 Q: And that's your note? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And again, as you told us yesterday, 13 these notes were made at or about the time of the event 14 or shortly thereafter? 15 A: Yes, sir, they were. 16 Q: And this note simply, as I read it, 17 is a note of a planning meeting on June the 1st at the 18 Chatham District Headquarters; is that correct? 19 A: Yes, I had met at the District 20 Headquarters in Chatham with Staff Sergeant Lacroix and 21 Detective Staff Sergeant Matthews. 22 Q: And where it says, "prepare 23 operational plans," does that relate to Ipperwash? 24 A: Yes, particularly in regards to the 25 Military issues there. Staff Sergeant Lacroix was the


1 prime individual assisting me with those plans. 2 Q: And Staff Sergeant Lacroix, at the 3 time, was based in Petrolia? 4 A: Yes, he was the Detachment Commander 5 of that Detachment. 6 Q: And if I could then take you to the 7 next page, it's June the 3rd, I believe, and it's 13:55 8 at 10:21, that's a telephone call to Chief 9 Superintendent's office; is that correct? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And could you just tell us briefly 12 what you discussed with the -- the Chief Superintendent? 13 A: My notes indicate that there were no 14 issues with any points discussed. 15 Q: You discussed the operational plan 16 first and he had no issue with any of those points? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: "Discussed legal position, ownership 20 of the property still not determined. 21 Chief Superintendent prepared to main - 22 - to maintain the present status, 23 pending further developments." 24 Q: And the reference to "ownership of 25 property still not determined," what does that refer to?


1 A: That refers to the discussions in 2 regards to the colour of right issues around the return 3 of the property and if, in fact, if there were, for lack 4 of a better term, grey areas around ownership. 5 Q: Okay. And on the next page, June the 6 3rd, 19:10, is it 10:21 -- pardon me? June the 4th, 7 excuse me. Oh, thank you, I missed one. 8 And at the bottom of the page on page 40: 9 "19:10, 10:21 to Sergeant Bell. He 10 will be at Ipperwash 13:00 Saturday, 05 11 June '93. Will also be available 12 Sunday if required. Will photo and 13 take plates of vehicles attending pow- 14 wow." 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And was that a pow-wow at the Army 17 Camp? 18 A: That was my understanding, yes. 19 Q: And Sergeant Bell's task at this time 20 was to identify people going in and out of the occupied 21 area of the Army Camp? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Then if I could take you to page 42, 24 June the 7th. The first entry is at 14:00, it's a 25 telephone call to, I can't read that.


1 A: Superintendent Wall. 2 Q: Okay. And the first -- 3 A: "Discussed operations plan was okay. 4 Legal opinion regarding the Trespass of 5 Property Act. Superintendent will 6 contact all division superintendents 7 and update re: operational plan." 8 Q: The reference to legal opinion re: 9 Trespass to Property Act; can you tell us what that was 10 about? 11 A: To tell you the truth I -- I don't 12 know what the essence of the discussion was. I -- I know 13 we had some -- we had researched some issues around the 14 Trespass to Property Act and the defence controlled 15 access regulations on the Military Base. 16 So I -- it would be speculation be around 17 that type of issues. 18 Q: One (1) of those issues? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: Then you had a telephone call at 2:15 21 with Staff Sergeant Lacroix and it's as I read it, he -- 22 you discussed the logistic plan being discussed. He was 23 going to fax it. And Staff Sergeant Lacroix is to 24 prepare joining instructions? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: And what does that refer to? 2 A: That means he would -- he would 3 prepare a -- basically a checklist if officers were going 4 to be requested to attend the area for an assignment that 5 upon arrival or either on arrival or prior to them being 6 deployed, they would be provided a list of instructions. 7 Normal things would be like where they 8 report to, the kit they'd be expected to bring with them; 9 those types of logistics. 10 Q: And then at 16:15 there's a telephone 11 call from Greg Cherewyk, SIU, C-H-E-R-E-W-Y-K, SIU. I 12 take it from what our discussion was yesterday, that's 13 the Military notice -- 14 A: It's Military Special Investigations. 15 Q: -- from the Military. 16 A: Military Police. 17 Q: And he's giving you some advice from 18 an informant; is that correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And this advice was that there was a 21 number, a hundred (100) AK47 rifles -- 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: -- at Kettle Point in the Ipperwash 24 area? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And can you -- 2 A: "The Natives were preventing access 3 to road adjacent to Outer Drive since 4 late last week. Feels camps are moving 5 closer to the bush area. Feels his 6 informant is reliable." 7 Q: And the road that's being referred 8 to, adjacent to Outer Drive is -- was -- was it your 9 understanding that was within the Army Camp? 10 A: I believe so. 11 Q: It wasn't a public road outside of 12 the Army Camp that was being referred to? 13 A: No, I don't think so. I believe it 14 was access with the Military personnel. 15 Q: Okay. Then if I could take you to 16 page 44. And there's a reference June 8th, 1993, at 17 10:30 there's a -- you received a call from Staff 18 Sergeant Lorne Smith. 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And he indicates that he's received 21 information that people from Kettle Point will block 22 Highway 21 on June the 17th? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And he indicated there were strong 25 feelings between -- could you read that last --


1 A: Yes. "There will be strong feelings 2 between the Kettle Point and Stoney 3 Point people." 4 Q: And so that was a concern. Is this 5 the first time you had heard of a possible blockage of 6 highway 21? 7 A: I believe so, yes. 8 Q: And then did you have -- at 14:05 9 there's another entry? 10 A: Yes, I had proceeded to the Grand 11 Bend Detachment and met with Staff Sergeant Smith. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: We discussed the issue at length. 14 Staff Sergeant Smith had been the liaison Officer with 15 Kettle Point for many years prior as a Supervisor at the 16 Forest Detachment, and -- and he knew a lot of people in 17 the Kettle Point area. 18 Q: So, he -- 19 A: So, he had a -- and he -- he 20 supervised the First Nations Policing Program for many 21 years, so he -- he had a -- a very sound understanding of 22 the local politics. 23 Q: And did acting Staff Sergeant Smith 24 reside in the Forest area? 25 A: Yes, he had -- he had been in the


1 area for many years. 2 Q: But was he living at -- back in 1993 3 was he still living here, do you know? 4 A: Close by. 5 Q: Okay? 6 A: In -- in -- within the county here. 7 Q: And the note goes on to say that 8 Lorne feels KP people upset? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Then can you just tell us a little 11 bit more based on your notes of what -- 12 A: Yes, he feels there was a secret 13 meeting in regards to the possible road closure. He 14 doesn't feel the Natives would use firearms or become 15 violent unless outsiders became involved. 16 He also requested that I not use him as a 17 negotiator, and explained for personal reasons he didn't 18 want to get involved, while he did support, you know, 19 somebody doing that function. 20 Q: But he simply didn't want to -- 21 A: He didn't want to do it, personally. 22 Q: Then at page 46, June 9th, 1993, 23 there's a note. Now, Deputy Commissioner, if there's -- 24 I'm simply highlighting some of these notes. There's 25 pages and pages of them, but if there's something that


1 you would like to highlight that I haven't, or draw to 2 the Commissioner's attention, please stop me and we'll do 3 that? 4 A: Thank you. 5 Q: At the top of the page, there's an 6 entry "June 9, 1993, 15:30 P.C. Morse, Intel advised -- 7 advising 1021"? 8 A: Yes, he -- he had called me. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: "Disregard the detail re: monitoring 11 for the weekend. Keep the 17th of June open re: possible 12 blockade". 13 Q: And, was P.C. Morse a -- an Ontario 14 Provincial police officer, or was he an RCMP officer? 15 A: He was part of the joint forces team. 16 I -- I'm not sure if he was one of ours of if -- the RCMP 17 officer. 18 Q: Can you tell us, back in 1993, what 19 the -- I think it's called JFO. It's joint -- 20 A: It's a Joint Forces Intelligence 21 Operation, yes. It's a JFO that was based out of London. 22 Sergeant Bell was the Supervisor, and there was 23 representation from OPP, RCMP, and London City Police on 24 that unit. 25 Q: And what did it deal with, generally?


1 A: Well, their responsibility was to 2 monitor criminal activity, generally speaking, for the 3 greater -- it would be the London district as -- from a - 4 - an OPP perspective, but within the city of London and 5 the surrounding area that may affect all the police 6 agencies. 7 Q: So -- so this wasn't a -- a -- an -- 8 this JFO wasn't set up simply to deal with Camp Ipperwash 9 and the issues at Ipperwash back in 1993; it was a 10 general cooperation among police forces? 11 A: Oh, absolutely. It -- it -- it 12 certainly was not specific to Ipperwash. They had many 13 other duties before and after. 14 Q: And it was simply used -- some of the 15 people that -- that were involved in the JFO were 16 Officers serving with the OPP and used the assistance of 17 other Officers in the JFO? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Then on June 11, 1993, page 47, at 20 11:40 there -- you received a telephone call from Staff 21 Sergeant Beacock. He had met with Tom Bressette and Carl 22 George; is that correct? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And can you just tell us what you 25 recall, using your notes as to what Staff Sergeant


1 Beacock told you? 2 A: Tom Bressette indicated: 3 "The Federal Government advising 4 they're not turning the Base over. 5 Will discuss other lands and money. No 6 demonstration on Highway 21. Carl 7 George denies any knowledge of 8 firearms. A bulldozer comment." 9 Apparently there was a comment he had made 10 earlier about a bulldozer, was said to have been in jest, 11 and that he didn't participate in any meeting. 12 "Appears there was mixed feelings re: 13 the federal discussions, and more 14 meetings were planned in the future." 15 Q: So the advice that you received from 16 Staff Sergeant Beacock was that he had been told by Chief 17 Tom Bressette that the Federal Government wasn't going to 18 turn the Base over, at least in June of 1993? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Then if I could take you to the next 21 page, page 48, Saturday, June 12th, '93. At nine o'clock 22 you received a telephone call from Acting Sergeant Parks, 23 I take it? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And he's simply advising you that a


1 new camp had been set up at the Base between the creek 2 and the barracks? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And that's -- was along Highway 21? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And there's a note of -- on June the 7 13th, '95, again you receive -- can you tell us what that 8 note says; It's at 8:30. 9 A: At 8:30 in the morning I personally 10 patrolled the Ipperwash area, viewed where the new camp 11 was set up, and noted that there was no significant new 12 activity other than that new camp. 13 Q: At this point in time, in 1993, you 14 were still living in Forest? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And when did you physically move from 17 Forest? 18 A: August the 1st of that year. 19 Q: Of that year? Then if I could take 20 you to page 50. The top of the page, Tuesday June 15th, 21 1993, 11:45 you received a telephone call from Acting 22 Staff Sergeant Beacock. 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: He spoke to me in regards to a


1 meeting at Bosanquet Township where concerns were raised 2 about potential problems. There was some emergency 3 planning taking place. He had spoke with Ken Williams, 4 who's administrator at Bosanquet Township in Thetford. 5 Constable Silverman had received a call 6 from Brent Hodsdon, Ministry of Natural Resources, will 7 serve a letter on Ipperwash Provincial Park re: the 8 ownership; and that there was -- Howard Hampton, one (1) 9 of the MPPs, was -- was to visit the Pinery Provincial 10 Park on Friday the June the 18th to open a new visitors 11 centre that had been constructed. 12 And on the 14th of June, Maynard and Carl 13 attended Bosanquet Township, claiming the land from 14 Ravenswood to Goderich to Park Hill, with the exception 15 of the village of Grand Bend. 16 Q: And this is being reported to you by 17 Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock, who had it reported to him 18 by Ken Williams? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And Ken Williams was the 21 administrator of the Township of Bosanquet? 22 A: Quite -- right. 23 Q: And so it was third hand by the time 24 it got to you? 25 A: That's right.


1 Q: And Howard Hampton, at the time, in 2 1993, was a member of the government? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And the letter that was being 5 referred to by Silverman, it's -- Constable Silverman had 6 received the letter from Brent Hodsdon, is that what the 7 note -- what's that about? 8 A: I'm not sure if he had served a 9 letter to Silverman or he was going to produce a letter 10 affirming the ownership of the Park. 11 Q: That was simply related to who owned 12 the Park? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Then later that day at 12:10, you 15 spoke with Detective Superintendent Wall on the phone, 16 and can you tell us -- review that conversation? 17 A: Yes, and I guess and just to correct 18 my last comment in regards to the ownership, this 19 clarifies it here somewhat, because the update to 20 Superintendent Wall goes that I updated him on the latest 21 information and that I had raised the concern about 22 serving notice to the natives in regarding to Ipperwash 23 Park. 24 So the gist of the earlier discussion must 25 have been that the Ministry of Natural Resources were


1 going to serve the occupiers with a letter in regards to 2 Park ownership. 3 "A letter to KP will state that the 4 Park is not -- a letter to Kettle Point 5 will state that the Park is not a part 6 of the land claim issue. Park properly 7 purchased and processed. Advised of 8 latest land claim at Thedford, also 9 that Kettle Point people left the area. 10 Cadets are coming the first week of 11 July." 12 Q: And the reference to the latest land 13 claim at Thedford is a report that you received with 14 respect to the land from Ravenswood Wood Road to Goderich 15 to Parkhill? 16 A: I believe so, yes. 17 Q: And what was your concern with 18 respect to serving the occupiers with respect to notice 19 regarding Ipperwash Park? 20 A: Well, as I -- as I read the note at 21 12:10 I'm not sure if it was a notice to the occupiers, 22 or if it was a notice to the Kettle Point Band in regards 23 to affirming the ownership, but I don't recall what my 24 particular concern was at the time. But as -- as I 25 recall, there was no outstanding land claim against


1 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 2 So it kind of seemed to me or -- or it 3 seems to me a moot point to -- to make an issue of 4 pointing out the ownership of the Park. 5 Q: Then, if I could take you to page 53, 6 June 17th, '93 at 3:05: 7 "Received a telephone call from Major 8 Bob Howell at CFB Downsview." 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And that's simply setting up a 13 meeting. 14 A: Yes, a meeting they were setting up 15 with myself, for the first of the week, with Major Doug 16 Wright wishing to attend. 17 "Will arrive at the London District 18 Headquarters on Monday the 21st of 19 June, between 10:00 and 10:30." 20 Q: And then there's a reference at 21 fourteen (14) -- 15:45 in the afternoon. You had a 22 telephone call with Detective Superintendent Tom Wall and 23 updated re: meeting and Military appointment for Monday? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And what -- do you recall what the


1 meeting is that you updated him about? 2 A: I'd have to go to the notes of the 3 21st of June to see what the meeting actually -- 4 Q: Okay. No, but updated re: meeting -- 5 oh, I see. 6 A: The meeting is -- is going to occur. 7 Q: On -- on the Monday. 8 A: I was just giving him a heads up that 9 it was coming. 10 Q: I just read that, I'm sorry. And he 11 advised... 12 A: He advised me that Deputy 13 Commissioner Campbell supports the current direction 14 that's being worked upon. 15 Q: Okay. Then, I note at 16:15 there's 16 a note: 17 "Few people at camps, minimal 18 activity." 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: Do you drive by the Army -- Army Camp 21 at that point? What's that based on? 22 A: Yes, it appears I was in the general 23 area until about eight o'clock that night, so I -- I must 24 have driven by personally. 25 Q: Then I may be taking you back, but on


1 the next page, page 54, there's a -- a note that I think 2 tells about the meeting. There's a note June 17th, '93 3 at 13:30. These pages may be out of order. 4 A: Yes, it is. 5 Q: And that's a meeting that you had 6 with the MNR? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And it was attended by Acting Staff 9 Sergeant... 10 A: Lorne Smith, Superintendent Les 11 Kobayashi, Enforcement Specialist Brett Hodsdon and Terry 12 -- I don't have the surname -- I believe is a -- 13 Q: Humberstone? 14 A: In all likelihood, that's probably 15 it. 16 Q: And when you say, "Enforcement 17 Specialist Brett Hodsdon", what did you understand, back 18 in 1993, that an -- the role of an Enforcement Specialist 19 with the MNR? 20 A: Well, the Ministry of Natural 21 Resources have a number of investigative personnel as 22 part of their enforcement team, and there are some who 23 have supervisory or special -- special assignments in 24 regards to enforcement. Some may specialize in -- in 25 fish or gaming areas of their business.


1 So, it's just a -- a matter of someone 2 having a special assignment, as I understood it. 3 Q: Okay. And... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Prior to going on with this meeting, 8 I wanted to just take you back -- in the black book 9 that's in front of you, the small black book, there's a 10 letter that's been marked Exhibit P-181 and it's Inquiry 11 Document 2001235. It's at Tab 16. 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And this letter shows you as having 14 received a copy and it refers to a notice having been 15 served by Mr. Scott Ewart, on June the 9th, at 16 approximately 10:30. And there's a document attached 17 that's entitled "Notice Department of National Defence, 18 Ipperwash Cadet Camp". 19 And -- were the documents attached to the 20 letter attached to it -- is that the notice that was 21 received by -- that you understood the Department of 22 National Defence had received? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And what was your understanding that 25 this notice had referred to?


1 A: Well, it indicates in this memo that: 2 "Maynard George had stated the above 3 notice had been served, giving the 4 Military thirty (30) days to vacate the 5 premises, or their next step may be to 6 move in with bulldozers." 7 Q: And that perhaps was the bulldozer 8 comment that we had -- 9 A: Correct, I believe so. 10 Q: -- that we just spoke about a minute 11 ago? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And if I could take you to P-182 14 which is at Tab 18 in the book that's in front of you. 15 This is Inquiry Document 2002536. 16 It's a letter dated June 11, 1993, and, 17 again, it's a -- a copy shown to you. And this refers to 18 a discussion that we had a few moments ago, that Sergeant 19 Beacock had attended an information meeting with 20 Bosanquet Township officials at 9:30 on June 11th, and 21 they discussed Camp Ipperwash and the problems that it 22 might create. 23 And he was informed -- Sergeant Beacock 24 says that Maynard George and Carl George had attended the 25 office of Bosanquet Township on June the 14th with large


1 maps indicating land claims from Ravenswood Road east of 2 Parkhill and north to Goderich, with the exception of the 3 village of Grand Bend. 4 And then at the bottom of the page, Brent 5 Hodsdon, Elmer, MNR, advised Acting Sergeant Silverman 6 that Pinery Park Superintendent Les Kobayshi will be 7 presenting a letter to Maynard George later this date, 8 informing George that the Ministry of Nature Resources 9 own Ipperwash Provincial Park. 10 Hodsdon also advised that the Honourable 11 Howard Hampton would be visiting Pinery Provincial Park, 12 Friday, June 18th, 1993 to open a new visitor centre. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then Sergeant Beacock says: 15 "My concern would be: Should the 16 Ministry of Natural Resources serve the 17 above mentioned letter on Maynard 18 George, and the First Nations people 19 become aware of Mr. Hampton's visit to 20 Pinery Park -- Provincial Park on June 21 18th, 1993, some type of demonstration 22 may occur during his attendance." 23 And so the concern that Staff Sergeant 24 Beacock had was from a policing perspective with respect 25 to a demonstration if a letter was sent that day?


1 A: That's right. 2 Q: Then we could go back to June 17th, a 3 meeting at page 54. 4 As I look at this, this simply is a 5 meeting to discuss the possibility of what would happen 6 if there was a occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park in 7 1993? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And the -- there's a reference, the - 10 -after operations planning, there's a line: "Command Post 11 participation". Have I read that correctly? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And what does that refer to, sir? 14 A: That means that there would be 15 representation from the Ministry of Natural Resources in 16 our command post. It would be like a joint management 17 team. 18 Q: With respect to...? 19 A: Any Ipperwash Park issues. 20 Q: Okay. And we'll come back to that, 21 because that was something that happened later on in 22 1990. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: I have a -- My Friend, Mr. Horton, 2 points out that there is an implicit assumption in my 3 question. And the assumption was and perhaps from out of 4 that there was going to be an occupation of the Park. 5 What was being discussed at this point in 6 time? 7 A: The issue at this time was that the 8 Military may take some unilateral action in regards to 9 the occupation of the firing ranges. 10 If that was to happen, it would be 11 necessary to secure the area around the Military Base to 12 allow them to carry that out if they did proceed. In 13 doing so, we would have restricted access to the general 14 area and may require the Ipperwash Park be evacuated. 15 Also, there was some concern that if 16 action was taken against the occupiers by the Military in 17 regards to the Army Base, there was the potential of the 18 attention being turned to the Provincial Park. 19 Q: So that was the concern at the time? 20 A: Yes, and it was a matter of 21 brainstorming all the options, so that Ministry of 22 Natural Resources could prepare some action plans that 23 they could deal with, and that they were aware that we 24 were developing some plans and that the two (2) 25 operational needs would be worked out in -- in concert.


1 Q: And so at this point in time it was 2 still -- there was still -- there was still a live 3 possibility that the Military might take some action on 4 its own? 5 A: Very much so. 6 Q: I thank My Friend Mr. Horton, 7 Commissioner. 8 Now, as a result of that meeting, what if 9 anything was done? Was there a plan created or what 10 happened immediately after June 17th with respect to this 11 issue, if anything? 12 A: Well, the OPP had our own operational 13 plan that I think we talked about yesterday -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And we were suggesting that the 16 Ministry of Natural Resources develop their own 17 contingency plans which, I understand, that they were 18 working on. 19 Q: Then on page 57, June 18th, 1993, you 20 received a telephone call from Ken Williams at Bosanquet 21 Township, and could you tell us what that call was about, 22 briefly? 23 A: On June the 18th? 24 Q: June the 18th. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, I received a call about 10:20 in 4 the morning from Ken Williams from Bosanquet Township. 5 He indicated he had a visit from Maynard George. 6 He was sharing with me that if there was 7 an eviction that they would have to use other lands, 8 reiterated the claim to Godrich to Ravenswood. 9 And again, I shared with them that we were 10 developing operational plans. The Township was preparing 11 evacuation procedures, and that there would be a meeting 12 when the plans were developed so that we could compare 13 the potential operational needs. 14 Q: And, what were -- what was the 15 Township -- did you understand why the Township was 16 preparing evacuation procedures at this point in time? 17 A: Well, it was contingency planning in 18 the event that we had to secure that area. I think it's 19 important to note, depending on how the Military 20 proceeded, our advice had been and continued to be that 21 they seek an injunction. 22 If it was necessary for them in the type 23 of injunction they would seek to serve notice on the 24 occupiers, that hearing would take place. 25 It's my understanding that that could be


1 for a period of time, in fact could be a significant 2 period of time between notice and actual hearing. 3 And it would be necessary to set up and 4 secure the area, in the interim, from the time of notice 5 until the actual time of the execution of the order. 6 And so, that area -- to secure that area 7 would require quite a significant geography around the 8 Military Base to prevent additional people coming in as 9 supporters for the occupation itself. So, that would 10 include a fair bit of population within Bosanquet 11 Township, so they needed to understand what impact that 12 would have. 13 Q: And so the planning at this point in 14 time was to -- in the event that something did happen to 15 isolate the Army Camp, is that -- 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And that would require the OPP to do 18 things on Outer Drive, Highway 21, and Army Camp Road? 19 A: I would suggest the planning was such 20 that it would be much broader than that. It would have 21 to go back to the junction at Northville at 79 and 21, 22 and perimeter roads that would actually take it back as 23 far as Ravenswood. 24 Q: Okay. Then on that same day, you had 25 a -- at 13:15 you spoke with Sergeant Beacock again.


1 It's in the middle of the page, sir, June 18, 1993? 2 A: At 13:15? 3 Q: June 18 at 13:15 -- or, 11:15, excuse 4 me? 5 A: Oh, I see, okay. Yes, I did. 6 Q: And you asked him to locate Maynard 7 George? 8 A: Yes, I asked him to locate Maynard 9 and discuss the Stoney Point position with cadets coming 10 in soon. We're prepared to discuss the issues regarding 11 the Military. 12 Q: Were they prepared to discuss issues 13 with Military? 14 A: What's -- well, that -- that was the 15 question. Were they prepared to -- 16 Q: Okay? 17 A: -- we wanted to seek that information 18 out. 19 Q: Then something had been damaged over 20 night? 21 A: It looks like steel -- steel marker 22 posts of some sort were damaged over night. I -- I'm not 23 sure which steel markers those are. 24 Q: It -- I think it's steel marker posts 25 damaged over night?


1 A: Right. 2 Q: And the Military felt that the 3 occupiers were responsible? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And do you have any idea where those 6 posts were? 7 A: No, it doesn't -- I -- I don't 8 recall. 9 Q: And on the next page, page 58, June 10 18, '93 again at 14:00 hours, you got a telephone call 11 from Sergeant Dan Bell -- Don Bell, excuse me? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And can you tell us about what you 14 learned in that telephone call? 15 A: I got a call from Sergeant Don Bell. 16 It indicated he had met with Chief Tom Bressette and 17 Earl. 18 Q: Do you know who Earl was? 19 A: I believe it's Earl Bressette. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: "No significant new information. ID 22 of the video that was taken of the 23 individual breaking the lock was Bert 24 Manning. Bell indicates that a Native 25 informant who may participate with the


1 Camp as a result of Maynard..." 2 Q: Soliciting? 3 A: Yes. 4 "...soliciting assistance regarding 5 support and participation." 6 Q: So, Sergeant Bell was having 7 discussions with Chief Tom Bressette as well? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Then on -- at page 60 there's a note 10 Monday, June 21st to June -- at 9:50 a telephone 11 discussion with Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock. 12 A: That's correct. He indicates a memo 13 he's received from Ron Baldwin from the Ministry of 14 Natural Resources in regards to a possible demonstration 15 today. 16 "Military have denied access to the 17 Kettle Point people, they would not 18 approve. The Chief Bressette had been 19 advised by Maguire (phonetic)." 20 I believe that's the captain on the Base 21 at that time. 22 Q: Did you understand what was happening 23 at this point, with respect to the Kettle Point people 24 being denied access to the Army Camp? 25 A: I believe what was happening there


1 was access through the main gates was the issue, if I'm 2 not mistaken. 3 Q: The main gate on Army Camp Road? 4 A: Right, in the built-up area. 5 Q: Yes. Okay. It wasn't along Highway 6 21? 7 A: I don't believe so. 8 Q: Then, there's a note about Brett 9 Hodsdon. 10 A: Yes. 11 "Brett Hodsdon advised that Beacock -- 12 he advised Beacock that Maynard George 13 had met with Les Kobayashi on Friday 14 afternoon. Upset that Howard Hampton 15 had not been available. Thought he was 16 to be at Ipperwash, actually it was the 17 Pinery. Maynard thought he had been 18 misled. Advised that if removed from 19 the Base Ipperwash and Pinery Parks 20 would be occupied." 21 Q: Okay. Then, on June 21st and in the 22 notes that My Friends have page 61 is June 22nd, but if 23 you go to page 62 it's back again to June 21st; it's 24 simply out of order. The -- there's a note at 16:45, you 25 are paged by P.C. Gagne?


1 A: Forest Detachment? 2 Q: Yes. Can you tell us what that note 3 says? 4 A: "Advised that CFB Ipperwash advised 5 Constable Gagne of Kettle Point -- 6 advised the members of Kettle Point 7 that the access through the main gate 8 for the fireworks was prohibited." 9 Q: So, this is with respect to what we 10 were just discussing a minute ago. It clarifies it was 11 through the main gate? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And was -- there was going to be a 14 celebration on the Army Camp that -- in June? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: Then if I could go back to June 22nd 17 at the bottom of the page for a moment on page 62, June 18 21st, '93 at 13:50 you spoke to Ron Baldwin at the MNR? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And what was that about? 21 A: We discussed the Blockade Committee 22 and plans in regards to an -- the occupation. And it 23 looks like we were setting up a meeting for Wednesday the 24 23rd of June for 8:30 in the morning. 25 Q: Now, the representative, I believe,


1 of the OPP at the occupation at the Blockade Committee at 2 the time, you weren't -- 3 A: That would have been Inspector Doug 4 Scott, I believe. 5 Q: It was Doug Scott? 6 A: In 1993, yes. 7 Q: And was he the Native Affairs liaison 8 with the blockade committee back then? 9 What I'm trying to get at, is he at the 10 same job as Ron Fox had later on? 11 A: Technically I believe so, yes. But I 12 -- it's my understanding they had a couple of functions 13 there, that being one (1) of them, but they'd also 14 provide advice to the Deputy Minister, I believe. 15 So they -- they worked out the Deputy 16 Minister's office. 17 Q: And did -- back in 1993, did you have 18 any direct conversations or telephone discussions with 19 Inspector Doug Scott? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: And with respect -- was this -- prior 22 to 1993, had you been involved with the Blockade 23 Committee with respect to any of the issues that you were 24 involved in? 25 I think you told us that you had not been


1 involved in any blockades or occupations. 2 A: No, I -- I wasn't involved with Doug 3 Scott or the Blockade Committee at all. 4 Q: Okay. And during this period of time 5 in 1993, you had no direct contact with anyone at the -- 6 at the Blockade Committee except for Deputy Super -- 7 Superintendent Wall? 8 A: Yes, and Superintendent Wall worked 9 out of the division office in London -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: And it's important to note that he 12 had been in the First Nations Bureau prior to coming to 13 London. So, he had a significant amount of understanding 14 of how the agreements were constructed and who the 15 various participants would be at the ministry level and - 16 - and with the Federal Government in regards to the 17 various policing agreements. 18 So he was, for the most part during 1993, 19 particularly, or until he retired, was the conduit that I 20 would receive that kind of information. 21 Q: So -- and do you know if he attended 22 -- we know that he attended one (1) inter-ministerial 23 blockade committee in May. 24 Do you know if he regularly attended the 25 meetings?


1 A: I don't believe he was a standing 2 member. 3 Q: And -- but at the time in '93, at 4 least in May and June of '93, you would get any reports 5 through Detective -- Superintendent Wall? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And not directly from Doug Scott? 8 A: Right, I received no information 9 direct from Doug Scott. 10 Q: And if I could take you back to the 11 note at page 62, at 19:30, there's a note, "PC Gagne." 12 Can you tell us -- can you tell us what that's about? 13 You received a telephone call from P.C. 14 Gagne? 15 A: Correct. He -- he called me at my 16 residence indicating of an incident that occurred on the 17 16th of June, that occurred at night in the bush. 18 Military officers were confronted by natives with hunting 19 rifles. 20 Q: And did he tell you when he had 21 learned about this incident or anything else about it? 22 A: I suspect he had just learned about 23 it. 24 Q: And why do you suspect that, sir? 25 A: Because he called me at home, and it


1 would be unusual that he would make an effort to call me 2 at home with some information he had had for a period of 3 time, unless he thought it was important that I be aware 4 of it right away. 5 Q: Okay. Then if I could take you to 6 June 22nd, again, and in our book it's page 61. It's a 7 separate page. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it may be the back of one of your 10 pages. 11 A: It is, yes. 12 Q: And there's a name, Bill Crate, C-R- 13 A-T-E -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Who was Bill Crate? That's the first 16 time we've heard his name, at least that I can recall. 17 A: Well, he's a superintendent today in 18 media relations. I -- I believe at that time Bill Crate 19 also worked down at the Ministry for a period of time. 20 And he may have had one (1) of the other 21 roles with the Ministry in regards to policing advice. 22 Q: And the Ministry you're referring to 23 is the Ministry of the Solicitor General? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And one (1) -- at least one (1) of


1 the numbers, the 314 number, I believe was a government 2 number? 3 A: Yes. That looks like the Toronto 4 government directories. 5 Q: And then there's a note, "Racism in 6 Military - media." Firstly, have I read that correctly? 7 A: Yes. I -- I believe that was just 8 some commentary on some media coverage. 9 Q: And then, "court order"? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: What does -- can you -- does this 12 assist you in -- with recalling what the conversation was 13 with Mr. Crate? 14 A: I'm not sure what our discussion was 15 because quite frankly I don't even recall having this 16 discussion with Bill. 17 Q: There's -- at the bottom I think it 18 reads: 19 "D/Commissioner and Commission feel 20 court is the avenue." 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And that's with respect to -- what 23 did you -- what do you understand that to mean today? 24 A: That a court order or a court 25 injunction would be the avenue that we would proceed with


1 or would be expected to proceed with in regards to this 2 type of incident. 3 Q: And there's a reference as well, 4 "request [something] of meeting with 5 Major Howell." 6 A: The status of a meeting with Major 7 Howell. 8 Q: And had the meeting taken place at 9 this point yet? I don't think I missed it. 10 A: No, I think we'll see that on the 11 23rd, I had a meeting with Major Howell. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. MARK SANDLER: Just going to say if 14 you look at page 62 -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: My Friend is saying if 16 I look at page 62 -- 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: The first entry for 18 June 22nd -- be of assistance. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 21 Q: Yes, at -- it's page 62 in the book, 22 June 22nd, '93. Telephone call from Major Bob Howell 23 arrange -- 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: -- for a meeting 23 June, '93, 15:00


1 hours District Headquarters, London. 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And then there's a note 10:35 with 4 Bill Crate. It's the same -- you have two (2) notes for 5 the same conversation? 6 A: That's right. I'd just jotted some 7 phone numbers and a couple of comments on the opposite 8 page. 9 Q: Then if I could take you to page 64, 10 June 23rd, '93 at 8:30. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And there's a note -- what's this 13 referring to? 14 A: The one with Don Bell? 15 Q: It says -- no, the one below it, sir. 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: June 23rd at 8:30. 18 A: That's a meeting at 8:30 in the 19 morning with Ron Baldwin from the Ministry of Natural 20 Resources and Brett Hodsdon. It was at the District 21 Headquarters in regards to the Ipperwash issue. 22 "MNR is concerned about the Military 23 strategy. They feel the Military will 24 use -- will use unilateral action and 25 cause operational problems for the


1 Ministry of Natural Resources. 2 They feel if the Natives are removed 3 from the Base, the Parks will be 4 targeted. Concern about an occupation 5 in Pinery Provincial Park due to the 6 geography in access. 7 Feel that injunction is the route they 8 should go. Discussed evacuation plan 9 regarding good routes, et cetera. Not 10 prepared to risk campers evacuation 11 will occur. Legal issue of ownership 12 established by the Ministry of Natural 13 Resources, communicated to Kettle Point 14 and Stoney Point via memo. Believe 15 Ministry of Natural Resources would 16 obtain injunction. Minimize media 17 impact. Would prefer sooner than later 18 if action is to be taken, given we're 19 talking of the 23rd of June, and 20 heading into the July 1st summer 21 season." 22 Q: And so, the Ministry of Natural 23 Resources were concerned that the Military might do 24 something unilaterally, and create problems with both of 25 the parks?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And the Ministry of Natural Resources 3 shared the Ontario Provincial Police's view, I take it, 4 in June of 1993, that a -- an injunction should be 5 obtained by the Military with respect to the Park -- with 6 respect to the Army Camp? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Then at page 67 of Exhibit 397, 9 there's a note on June 23, 1995 at 15:00, and I take it 10 this is the meeting with the Military? 11 A: Yes, that's with Major Bob Howell, 12 and another member he brought with him by the name of 13 Motyl, O-T-Y-L. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: We discussed the issues, the OPP's 16 position was that we would respond to any criminal act, 17 or as directed in a Court Order. Military were not in 18 favour of a Court Order. 19 They were concerned in regards to the 20 incident related earlier, regarding the rifle, and that 21 was still being investigated. 22 I pointed out the issue, you know, could 23 move to the Ipperwash Park on Highway 21 or forcibly 24 ejected. 25 Discussions required between the Natives


1 and the Military -- 2 Q: Was that your position? 3 A: Yes. Howell advises they cannot 4 discuss anything because the group is not recognized. 5 Q: So the Military took the position; 6 because the occupiers were not officially recognized, 7 they wouldn't talk to them? 8 A: Correct. Their -- their view was, 9 the only individuals that had the right of negotiation, 10 in regards to the return of the Military Base, was with 11 the Kettle Point Band Council. 12 Q: Okay, and if you could go on, please; 13 pointed out? 14 A: Yes, I'm just trying to get the 15 context here. 16 "...pointed out that it may be 17 necessary, prior to any Court Order or 18 other actions. He will convey the 19 message to his Superiors. Discussed 20 operational plans in the event of an 21 eviction. Timing is critical. 22 Security of the area is critical due to 23 possible -- possible warrior support. 24 Possibly a seventy-two (72) hour 25 waiting period. Decision to be made on


1 the 23 of June, in regards to the cadet 2 program..." 3 Q: And what's that refer to? 4 A: Well, every summer they had -- the 5 Base was literally filled with cadet training through the 6 summer months, so they would be arriving soon. 7 Q: And so that -- the decision was going 8 to be made whether they were going to have the program or 9 not? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: As a matter of fact, they did have 12 the program that summer? 13 A: That summer and in 1994. 14 Q: And then it goes on? 15 A: "...pointed out that the Court Order 16 required for the -- pointed out that a 17 Court Order was required for support in 18 law..." 19 Q: And what's that refer to? 20 A: Well, that -- that's pointing out to 21 them that as -- as a police agency, we expected a Court 22 Order to agree or, I -- direct that upon recognition of 23 ownership of the property, what police action should or 24 should not be. 25 Q: So, your concern, the OPP's concern


1 was you wanted a Court to determine the issue of 2 ownership before the OPP did anything? 3 A: Correct. As -- as the landowners, 4 they were expected to demonstrate to the Court that it 5 was their -- that they rightfully owned it, and that -- 6 the steps to be taken to address the occupation. 7 Q: Okay. Then if you could go on? 8 A: Also, internal security of Base would 9 be a Military responsibility. Major Howell would advise, 10 on the 24th of June, of the information to his superiors. 11 Q: And then there's a note in the 12 margin, at least on our -- the photocopy of page 67. 13 A: Yes. 14 "We must be named in the injunction. 15 The Sheriff may be responsible for 16 service." 17 Q: And, what your -- and what does that 18 refer to? 19 A: Well, we would expect that if the 20 Military went forward with an application that there 21 would be some commentary in regards to what was expected 22 of the OPP. 23 Q: Then, on the next page, June 23rd at 24 16:05, I take it this meeting with the Military lasted 25 just under an hour?


1 A: It appears so, yes. 2 Q: Because your entry -- as you had a -- 3 you called Chief Superintendent Coles? 4 Q: Yes, I called him at 16:05, 4:05 in 5 the afternoon, updating him on the issues to-date, the 6 meeting with the Ministry of Natural Resources Mayor -- 7 Major Howell meeting and the gun incident. 8 "Advised him that I felt the Military 9 will not get an injunction. MNR is 10 prepared to get an injunction now, 11 legal issues are prepared. I discussed 12 the lack of discussion between the 13 Military and the Natives. 14 Chief Superintendent suggested I 15 contact Maynard George in an effort to 16 dispel the rumours, tell them -- tell 17 him that he'll be warned in regards to 18 an injunction. We are -- we are 19 peacekeepers, Military will seek the 20 injunction." 21 Q: So, his -- the Chief Superintendent's 22 advice was to try to pass on information to Maynard 23 George that it would be the Military that would be 24 seeking the injunction, not the Ontario Provincial 25 Police?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And, the decision with respect to the 3 injunction, I take it, would be that of the Military, not 4 the Ontario Provincial Police? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Then, later that day on page 69 of 7 Exhibit 397, you had a -- there's a note with respect to 8 Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: It's 19:00 hours? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And can you tell us about that note? 13 A: "I was accompanied by Acting Staff 14 Sergeant Beacock and we patrolled the 15 Ipperwash Base area. Observed about 16 thirty (30) Natives on the range area 17 near the pistol range. Walls of a 18 building were being erected. Drove up 19 to the area of construction, there was 20 Native music being played from a 21 pickup." 22 Q: Now, did you drive into the Army Camp 23 or just along the fence? 24 A: I believe we drove in. 25 Q: Okay. And, that building is a


1 building that's still there, I think it was called the 2 Argument Hall or -- do you know what -- 3 A: The -- the meeting hall, yes. 4 Q: The meeting hall? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And were you in that building at any 7 time afterwards? 8 A: I was never in it. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: "I drove up to the area of the 11 construction. Maynard George 12 approached us, had a discussion in the 13 cruiser. Asked Maynard in regards to 14 calls on Saturday about raid." 15 Q: Do you know what that's referring to? 16 A: I'm not sure. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: "Information had been received from 19 Thedford trying to dispel rumours. 20 Told him -- told -- told him to call if 21 he had a concern. We would keep the 22 peace; we would investigate any 23 criminal acts. 24 The problem was with the Military, not 25 the police and asked him how he


1 intended to resolve it and Maynard 2 advised that he was involved with the 3 Geneva Convention, Military is 4 trespassing [and something to do with 5 court in July]. Also Ipperwash Park 6 was moved [I'm not sure what the next 7 word is] to Native land. 8 Q: On to Native land? 9 A: That could be. 10 "Cleared -- clear that Maynard has no 11 intention to compromise in any way." 12 Q: Okay, and later that night you had a 13 discussion with -- there's a note, Carl Walsh? 14 A: Yes, he's one of the Military Police 15 special investigators, and just discussed the 16 construction of the building. And that information, 17 Military information, would be forwarded to Ottawa by 18 Walsh. 19 And there was a concern regarding the flow 20 of information -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- I'm not sure what the concern was. 23 Q: Okay. Then on the next page, page 24 70, June 24th, '93, you had a telephone call -- number of 25 telephone calls, one (1) at 7:20 with Ron Baldwin --


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you simply, I take it... 3 A: It was just an update on the meeting 4 I had with Major Howell, the construction that was going 5 on, Military concern. Continued, basically, a wait-and- 6 see approach. 7 Q: And that was -- the OPP was 8 continuing a wait-and-see approach? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And there's a note, "escalate the 11 issue", did either you or he feel that the construction 12 might escalate the issue? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: It certainly concerned -- the 16 Military was getting more nervous as more activity was 17 taking place. 18 Q: Okay. Then at 10:15, Chief 19 Superintendent office. Was that a meeting with Chief 20 Superintendent Coles? 21 A: Correct, I believe I attended his 22 office. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I discussed the meeting with Maynard 25 George.


1 "We discussed the approach regarding 2 court order. Chief Superintendent 3 agrees with the approach to date. 4 Discussed problems regarding 5 intelligence branch. Discussing issues 6 with local Detachment. Chief 7 Superintendent contacted intelligence 8 at general headquarters, Inspector 9 Lawrenson (phonetic). Reinforced the 10 chain of events and information to 11 myself or Staff Sergeant Beacock or 12 Sergeant Bell. 13 I will continue to act as the Incident 14 Commander." 15 Q: And what were the problems with -- in 16 -- regarding intelligence branch? 17 A: I believe there had been a phone call 18 to Forest Detachment where one of the constables had 19 answered the phone and one of the intelligence officers 20 were providing intelligence information directly to the 21 constables as opposed to delivering it to myself or the 22 Detachment Commander. 23 Q: So it was the flow of information was 24 going directly to the line officers as opposed to the 25 persons responsible for --


1 A: Right. 2 Q: -- getting the information? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Okay. And then at 13:30 you had a 5 telephone call with Superintendent Randall, and he was at 6 Chatham, I think, Superintendent Randall? 7 A: That's correct, he was the -- 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: -- commander at Chatham district 10 headquarters and basically it's another update around the 11 various meetings. 12 Q: Okay. Then at the top of the next 13 page, page 71, June 24th, '93 at 16:05 you had a 14 telephone call with Major Bob Howell? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And can you tell us what... 17 A: Yes, I'm just checking my note here. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Yeah, he indicated that: 22 "The Military has, verbally and in 23 writing, communicated the position -- 24 their position regarding the occupation 25 to Stoney Point. Their legal


1 department was not keen on an 2 injunction. They would consider DCARS 3 [the defence controlled access 4 regulations]. 5 Also, Section 41 of the Criminal Code 6 re: defence of real property. Also 7 sending a three (3) man reconnaissance 8 team. Cadets still coming at this 9 time. Recon. members to [I believe 10 it's] travel to base with me in the 11 a.m." 12 Q: And that's with him? With Major Bob 13 Howell? 14 A: I believe so, yes. 15 "Advises no construction activity this 16 date. Twelve (12) Military Police 17 officers will arrive tomorrow. Orders 18 are to police the camp and not to be 19 confrontational." 20 Q: Okay. Yes? 21 A: "Updated him re: my meeting with 22 Maynard. Two (2) was communication was 23 very productive. Discussed the concern 24 re: Carl Walsh. Not sure his approach is 25 productive on a local basis. Major will


1 address." 2 Q: And the last line? 3 A: I got: 4 "May he ask to remove trespassers 5 sensitive." 6 Q: And what does that refer to? 7 A: I'm not -- I'm not quite sure quite 8 frankly. 9 Q: And: 10 "Discussed concern re Carl Walsh, not 11 sure his approach is productive." 12 And what were you referring to there? 13 A: There was an issue with Carl Walsh 14 but I forget exactly if it was chain of command of 15 reporting information or exactly what it was. 16 Q: Okay. Then if I could take you to 17 page 73 of Exhibit 397 and once again if there's 18 something that I've skipped over that you would like to 19 point out, Deputy Commissioner, please do so. 20 At page 73 it appears to be a back of a 21 note. 22 A: Right it's the back page of my other 23 writings. 24 Q: And do you know which date this is? 25 A: Well, the facing page is Friday the


1 25th of June so I presume it's that day that I had 2 scribbled that in. 3 Q: And what is this referring to. Fred 4 Thomas, he was the Mayor of the Township of Bosanquet? 5 Is that correct? 6 A: Yes. It's -- it's just a series of 7 telephone numbers for Fred Thomas, for Mayor Minielly 8 from Forest, Ministry of Natural Resources -- 9 Q: And Chief Tom Bressette? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: It says, he will call back. His 13 phone number and the phone number of legal services. 14 Q: And then, "K.P. Norm -- 15 A: Shaunell. 16 Q: And what's that refer to? 17 A: I'm not sure what that was about. 18 Q: Then on Friday, later that day on 19 Friday, June 25th, you had another discussion at 10:25 or 20 did you have a meeting with Major Howell? 21 A: Yes. He notified me that he would be 22 flying into London with an action response unit, arriving 23 around 12:30 to discuss operational plans. 24 Q: And what was your understanding of an 25 action response unit?


1 A: I had no idea what they were. I -- I 2 would -- I was about to learn shortly thereafter. 3 Q: Okay. Then you also note that you 4 had a telephone discussion at 11:30 with Chief Tom 5 Bressette and can you tell us about that meeting? That 6 tele -- was it a meeting or a telephone call? 7 A: I must have gone up to Kettle Point. 8 No, I couldn't have. It must -- it must have been a 9 phone call because at 10:30 I had been on the phone with 10 Superintendent Wall so it must have been a phone call. 11 But if I could just point out in the -- in 12 the 10:30 phone call with Superintendent Wall, I had 13 requested he attend the 12:30 meeting with the Military 14 with me. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: And we were concerned about the legal 17 position the Military might take and with his experience 18 I was looking for some -- some assistance. And he had 19 the experience in regards to blockades. 20 Q: The line says, 21 "Also his experience [something]". 22 A: "Also his experience important re: 23 Native blockades." 24 Q: Okay, thank you. 25 A: So, it looks like I spoke with Tom


1 Bressette: 2 "Discussed the ongoing issue. A 3 meeting Monday at nine o'clock. Tom 4 will be attending the meeting in 5 Toronto or he will assign somebody." 6 And that may have been my note in regards 7 to Norm Shawnoo. 8 Q: Oh, I see. 9 A: Regarding Norm. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: "Maynard has launched an alarm a 14 couple of times requesting assistance." 15 Q: What's that refer to? 16 A: Well, I believe I'm soliciting Chief 17 Bressette's assistance in trying to keep this dialogue 18 moving. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: "Maynard is contact warrior society 21 et cetera. Tom disagrees with the 22 approach. Meeting next week regarding 23 the framework for negotiations." 24 Q: Meeting with the Federal Government? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Yes. 2 A: "Feels they will only be carried out, 3 no other way." 4 And I note here Norm Shaunell, so he must 5 have assigned Norm Shaunell to come to this meeting. 6 There was concern re: the police/native 7 relationships. I'm not sure if that's my concern or if 8 it's Tom's concern. 9 And there was a belief that the occupiers 10 would squat on farmers' land if they were evicted. 11 Q: Okay. And if I could take you back 12 to the note with this -- Chief Superintendent -- with 13 Superintendent Wall. The latter part of that note 14 indicates that he was going to request a lawyer at the 15 legal branch for a legal opinion regarding Section 41 and 16 the DCARS? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: So -- 19 A: And we're looking for a -- a quick 20 around by noon if possible, so we could be armed with 21 that information for the Military meeting. 22 Q: So the OPP wanted to find out if the 23 Military was right with respect to what they were saying 24 about -- 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: -- the Criminal Code and DCARS? 2 A: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 4 would this be a good point to take a morning break? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 7 to just -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's fine, thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 10 morning break. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 for fifteen (15) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 11:19 a.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 11:40 a.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Deputy Commissioner, before we go on, 22 I would like you to go back to a couple of entries that I 23 should have -- that I didn't take you to. 24 The first is on page 70, it's June 24th, 25 1993 at, I believe it's 13:15 hours. It's a telephone


1 call with Inspector Bill Crate. 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Is it a telephone call or a meeting 4 or -- 5 A: It -- it would be a telephone call. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I called to him to discuss the 8 overnight issues and that at 13:30 on the 25th there was 9 going to be a meeting of the blockade committee. He was 10 also requesting daily updates by fax to assist the 11 blockade committee meetings. 12 I would advise him of Military calls, 13 particularly regarding whether the cadets were coming or 14 not. 15 Q: So he wanted you to send daily 16 updates by fax and what was your understanding as to what 17 was going to happen with those updates? 18 A: Well, he would take that information 19 and use it to deal with the issues in regards to the 20 blockade committee decisions. 21 Q: So you were providing him information 22 and he would provide information to those who were 23 attending that blockade committee. Is that your 24 understanding? 25 A: Right. The relevant information,


1 yes. 2 Q: And was he attending the blockade 3 committees, Mr. -- 4 A: I believe so. 5 Q: Then we spoke just before the break 6 about the defence regulations and your meeting with -- 7 with Major Bob Howell. I would like to take you to page 8 72 and it's Friday, June 25th. 9 You had a meeting or a discussion with -- 10 you had a telephone call firstly with Bill Crate about 11 your meeting with Major Howell, then there's a reference 12 there: 13 "Discussed call from Major Howell. 14 Cadets still coming to Ipperwash -- 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: -- then C.C. or fed regs - a concern, 17 urge court injunction." What's that 18 refer to, sir? 19 A: That's the information I'm providing 20 to him that the issue with regards to the Criminal Code 21 sections or federal regulations that might be applied was 22 a concern and that our position was to urge a court 23 injunction. 24 Q: And then at 8:10, was this a meeting 25 with Chief Superintendent Coles?


1 A: No. I believe it was a phone call. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Where again, we discussed the Section 4 41 of the Criminal Code and the defence access 5 regulations. 6 "Not comfortable with the sections in 7 the Criminal Code or the defence 8 regulations." 9 That again, the preference is a court 10 order and Chief Superintendent Coles, he had some reason 11 to believe that the cadets might not be coming. 12 And I asked for legal opinions in regards 13 to Section 41 of the Criminal Code and he suggested 14 Superintendent Wall was going to follow that up. 15 Q: And who wasn't comfortable with the 16 Sections and who wanted the court order. You referred to 17 court order, was it you or he or both? 18 A: I would suggest it was a combination 19 of both. 20 Q: So, the OPP were very concerned about 21 Section 41 and the use of the defence regulations -- 22 access regulations? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Then if I could take you to page 75 25 it's June 25th at the top of the page, Brett Hodsdon --


1 Brett Hodsdon, excuse me. 2 A: Yes, it talks about: 3 "Maynard arrived at the Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park with three (3) people 5 in suits, checked the area regarding 6 the beach and buildings, etcetera. 7 Talked about the terms of a court 8 injunction." 9 Potentially, some of the conditions might 10 be, such as not trespass within a half a mile of -- of 11 the Military Base, which in fact, would cover the 12 geography of the Provincial Park as well. And there had 13 been a native person in the park on a dirt bike, who had 14 been issued a ticket. 15 Q: And was -- with respect to the Park, 16 was it a concern that the injunction might cover the 17 Park, the Provincial Park? 18 A: The -- the concern was that the 19 attention would be turned to the Park next. And I 20 believe the discussion was well, if the conditions such 21 as not return within a half a mile of the Military Base 22 that, in fact, Ipperwash Park would also be covered in 23 that geography. So it really would not be an issue. 24 Q: Oh, I see. Okay. Then, later that 25 day, at the page 78, there's a note June 25th, '93 at


1 14:30, Major Bob Howell, Colonel Miller, I take it, 2 and... 3 A: Wylie? 4 Q: Wylie? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Well, it's -- then -- they were -- 7 was this a meeting? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And where was the meeting, sir? 10 A: It was in the board room of District 11 Headquarters at London. 12 Q: And then, there -- it -- after Wylie 13 there's -- it says, "MP built-up area?" 14 A: Right. 15 Q: What's that refer to? Was that 16 another person attending the meeting? 17 A: I'm -- I'm not sure if it was a -- a 18 Military Police officer from -- from Ipperwash or not. 19 Q: And then, from the OPP side... 20 A: It had Detective Superintendent Tom 21 Wall, Bernay -- Bernie Derubie, who's a regional officer, 22 Major Peter Atkinson, Lieutenant Colonel Matt MacDonald, 23 who was the Commanding Officer. 24 Q: So -- 25 A: Derubie, Atkinson, and MacDonald are


1 all Military personnel. 2 Q: So that there were six (6) Military 3 people or seven (7) Military people, and Superintendent 4 Tom Wall, and yourself? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: Yes. And tell us about this meeting? 7 A: "We discussed the operational plan 8 regarding Ipperwash, reiterated the 9 problem with any approach other than an 10 injunction. Military prefers other 11 than an injunction. The position -- 12 our position was reaffirmed by 13 Superintendent Wall. Criminal matters 14 will be dealt with, the injunction will 15 require action and give direction. 16 Discussed the Military Police present - 17 - presence. Limited reference. No 18 contact with." 19 Q: Do you know what that's referring to? 20 A: I'm not sure. I -- I think there was 21 -- there was some discussion, perhaps at this meeting, in 22 regards to the range of duties that the Military Police 23 would -- would in fact engage in. So, there was -- there 24 was some stress with the Military personnel, the Military 25 Police personnel, as to what they could or couldn't do in


1 regards to taking action against occupiers. 2 Q: And we've seen in the operational 3 plan that was marked Exhibit 400 and we discussed 4 yesterday that the OPP would look after serious crimes, 5 and is that what was being referred to at this -- in this 6 meeting? 7 A: No, sir, what we saw yesterday was 8 our -- our policy that is in police orders, that is, 9 general policy across the organization. What we are 10 trying to reaffirm here that any criminal offence, 11 involving the occupiers, where we have reasonable or 12 probable grounds we would investigate and if appropriate, 13 lay the appropriate charges. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: So, we just wanted to reiterate one 16 (1) more time that we were prepared to take action where 17 we had the authority to do so. 18 We were certainly feeling that the 19 Military felt we were shirking our responsibility in not 20 taking action, particularly in regards to what they saw 21 as the trespassing on the base. 22 Q: So that your position -- the OPP's 23 position was they needed to get an injunction, which 24 would direct the OPP to do something. The Military 25 didn't want to get an injunction, they wanted something


1 done without an injunction? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And was that how it was left at the 4 end of that meeting? 5 A: Yes. The staff -- the Military 6 personnel under MacDonald's command were en route to CFB 7 Ipperwash to assess the situation from their perspective. 8 Q: And Colonel -- Mr. MacDonald -- 9 Lieutenant Colonel MacDonald, was he from London? 10 A: He was from Camp Petawawa. 11 Q: Oh, Camp Petawawa? 12 A: Yes. He was commander, I believe, of 13 the Royal Dragoons at that time. 14 Q: Okay. Then at page 79, there's a 15 entry, "16:30 MNR Ron Baldwin." 16 A: Yes, he advises of blockade committee 17 call and that he indicated the Deputy Minister was to 18 urge an injunction with the Federal Deputy Minister. 19 Q: And do you which Deputy Minister was 20 going to urge an injunction with the Federal Deputy 21 Minister? 22 A: No, sir, I'm not sure who was who at 23 that time. 24 Q: And then there's a note that I think 25 answers that question. At five o'clock you had a


1 telephone conversation with Inspector Crate? 2 A: Correct. 3 "Updated re: the meeting. Deputy 4 Commissioner Naigle to call John Tuff 5 Deputy Minister of Justice Federal. 6 Requesting injunction approach." 7 Perhaps it's Taft, "to request same 8 through Deputy Minister, Department of 9 National Defence." 10 Q: And so this request that this matter 11 be dealt with by a Court Order, as opposed to any other 12 form of action, was moving up the chain of command in the 13 Ontario Provincial Police? 14 A: I'm sorry? 15 Q: It was -- there -- the issue of 16 getting a Court Order as opposed to -- as the -- the 17 issue from the OPP's perspective that it wanted the 18 Military to get a Court Order with respect to the 19 ownership, was moving up the chain of command in the OPP? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And Deputy Commissioner Naigle, he 22 was one (1) of two (2) deputy commissioners at the time? 23 A: Yeah, it was -- Deputy Naigle was a 24 she. 25 Q: Oh, she, excuse me.


1 A: She, yes. 2 Q: And so she was going to call the 3 Deputy Minister of Justice and the Federal Deputy 4 Minister of Justice and request that they seek an 5 injunction? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And she was going to -- did you 8 understand she was going to ask the Deputy Minister of 9 Justice to also request the same through the Deputy 10 Minister of Defence? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Okay. Then on June the 26th, you had 13 another meeting with Lieutenant Colonel MacDonald at, I 14 think it's 16:00 hours? 15 A: 13:00. 16 Q: 13:00? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Actually before that, in the morning 19 on September 26th, you had -- June 26th, excuse me. 20 A: June, yes. 21 Q: It's Saturday, June 26th. 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: Just wishful thinking, 23 Mr. Millar. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: The -- you had a -- I take it from 3 this note you were at the Forest Detachment, you met with 4 Acting Sergeant Silverman and you also -- the note 5 indicates you met with Captain Prentice and Sergeant... 6 A: Doug McGuire. 7 Q: Doug McGuire. 8 A: I actually attended the Base. 9 Q: Can you just tell us a little bit 10 about this? 11 A: Yes, we -- I was at the base, talking 12 to Captain Prentice and Sergeant McGuire, who's a 13 Military Police officer, discussing the criminal offences 14 situation, and again reiterating the OPP will deal with 15 criminal occurrences, that we will arrest, that the 16 Military Police should detain any activity, any criminal 17 activity they encounter, and that we would follow it up 18 by returning the individuals to Forest and processing the 19 -- the whatever the arrest was about. 20 Q: With respect to criminal activity? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And who was Captain Prentice? 23 A: Captain Prentice, I believe, was a 24 temporary base commander. He had -- was on a -- a short 25 term assignment there.


1 Q: Okay. Then at 13:00 you met with 2 Lieutenant Colonel MacDonald? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And where was that? 5 A: That was at the Apple Tree Inn in 6 Arcona. 7 Q: Okay. And tell us about that 8 meeting. 9 A: We discussed the operations plan, 10 concern about security of the water plant, the criminal 11 offences, the issues of photo identification, gate 12 security, the property after the fact. 13 Q: What's that refer to? 14 A: Well, once the Military, if they take 15 action, what -- what happens to the property after the 16 fact if there's subsequent issues that arise from that. 17 "I will meet with Maynard. Yellow tape 18 on the road to base camp." 19 There was an issue there in regards to 20 where the occupiers could travel, I believe between the 21 firing ranges and the built-up area; so there was some 22 discussion about putting yellow tape across the -- the 23 lane or the drive -- driveway. 24 Q: The road that's parallel to Highway 25 21?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: On the inside of the Park? 3 A: So it was an indicator of -- 4 Q: drawing a line. 5 "Concern about firearms and pickups. 6 Consider Wes Cam Video through the 7 RCMP. 8 The Colonel will call me back tomorrow 9 and that he informed me he would be in 10 London overnight." 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, can you tell us what a Wes Cam 16 is? 17 A: A Wes Cam? 18 Q: Wes Cam, yes. 19 A: A Wes Cam is a high powered camera 20 that is normally operated from aircraft. In this 21 particular case the RCMP had that tool available to them 22 on one of their helicopters. 23 And that particular kind of a unit can 24 operate at extended or considerable heights, with very 25 significant clarity. So for instance, the exact


1 distances -- I may not be accurate, but I believe you 2 could stand off at say 5000 feet and still have a pretty 3 fair picture of activity at ground level. 4 Q: So that -- and the OPP at that -- in 5 1993, did not have that ability? 6 A: We did not. 7 Q: And whose suggestion was this that 8 you consider the Wes Cam? Was that -- 9 A: I'm not sure which one it was. But 10 it would -- it would certainly be in this type of 11 discussion. Something that would be -- if there was 12 going to be any action taken just from a -- an 13 operational preparedness point of view, you would look to 14 have that kind of a tool available to you. 15 So it -- it would be pretty normal that 16 either, or both of us, would have either thought about 17 that or looked for that kind of support. 18 Q: Okay. And at the top of the next 19 page on June 26, 1993, at 18:50 you had a telephone call 20 with a Major Carr? 21 A: That's right, Simon Carr requesting a 22 meeting with the Colonel Sunday morning at nine o'clock 23 at the District Headquarters. 24 Q: And that's again, Colonel McDonald? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: And at page 82 you -- there's a note 2 at 15:15, can you tell us about that? 3 A: "I went to the Ipperwash Base, unable 4 to locate Maynard George. He might be 5 at his residence. I was accompanied by 6 Acting Sergeant Silverman. I attended 7 the residence of Maynard George on the 8 14th concession. 9 Maynard came out -- came out from the 10 rear of the residence. We discussed 11 the safety issues as a concern of the 12 municipalities. Discussed the issues 13 of guns and pickup trucks, to which he 14 denied any knowledge. 15 Assures that he will encourage members 16 to not display any weapons. 17 To alleviate any doubt I asked him to 18 supply a membership list allowing me to 19 differentiate from Stoney Point or 20 other people. Advised he would do 21 that. 22 Maynard spoke about cooperation; 23 advised that yellow tape allows Militia 24 to use the built-up area and the 25 munitions depot. Advises his people


1 agree to honour this line that's in 2 place and that he will be going to 3 Ottawa, expects announcement on Monday 4 that will turn over the Base to Stoney 5 Point. 6 Indicated that he spoke to Prime 7 Minister Kim Campbell last week. Also, 8 he's meeting with provincial officials 9 re: the sovereignty of the land from 10 Bosanquet to [I'm sorry] from 11 Ravenswood to Goderich. Ipperwash Park 12 belongs to Stoney Point they will not 13 disrupt the Park, but will -- will 14 rename it Stoney Point Memorial in 15 honour of the veterans." 16 Q: And, that had been one (1) of the 17 requests that veterans be honoured at the -- earlier by 18 Maynard George and Carl George, is that not correct? 19 A: I believe that's the reference. 20 Q: Okay. Then, on June 27th, 1993, you 21 -- there's a reference at 08:00 to Captain Prentice. Can 22 you tell us about this -- the note at the top of the 23 page? 24 A: Correct. I was at the Forest 25 Detachment.


1 "Special Investigative Officer Lloyd 2 Stone came to the Detachment, advised 3 that a tractor had travelled [perhaps 4 that's through the road]..." 5 Q: Through the road and spots. 6 A: "...and spots the field area." 7 I'm not sure exactly what he's referring 8 to there. 9 "Captus -- Captain Prentice patrolling, 10 removes yellow tape to gain access. 11 Advised Stone this causes me concern 12 re: potential confrontation. Will 13 discuss with Colonel MacDonald." 14 Q: So, you -- you're -- you had a 15 concern about Captain Prentice going on the other side of 16 the yellow tape? 17 A: Yes, I -- I was of the impression we 18 had some understanding that the yellow tape was basically 19 allowing everybody their space, so to speak, and I 20 certainly felt that removal of the tape was antagonistic 21 in nature. 22 Q: So that was antagonistic in nature by 23 the Army? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And then, at 8:30 you had a cell


1 phone call with Lieutenant Colonel MacDonald? 2 A: That's right, I did, where I did 3 express my concerns. He was already aware of the issue. 4 "He feels the Base Commander will be 5 alone when he has access, that he felt 6 it was necessary for him to be able to 7 travel through that area. I suggested 8 it may provoke an issue, will be 9 discussed this afternoon in Toronto." 10 And then it's -- I believe that's 11 MacDonald -- Macdonald going to discuss it in Toronto. 12 "Updated him on the meeting I had had 13 with Maynard George and potentially the 14 yellow tape issue. Maynard advises he 15 will recognize the boundary." 16 So, I'm just trying to reaffirm with him 17 what had been established in that meeting and the -- that 18 I had discussed the weapons issue with Maynard and that 19 he was prepared to supply a list of the names of the 20 Occupiers. 21 Q: Okay. And then, on page 84 there's a 22 note, which must be on the back of one (1) of your pages? 23 A: It is. 24 Q: That refers to: 25 "Keele and Sheppard, Major General


1 Vernon, Cadets re: weapons, Monty 2 Casino, Keele near Sheppard." 3 What's that referring to, sir? 4 A: That's referring to a meeting that's 5 being set up in Toronto at CFB Toronto and Monty Casino 6 is a motel close to the Military Base where I would be 7 spending the evening. 8 Q: All right. Is that at CFB Downsview? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And then, you also received a call -- 11 did you get this information as part of this call from 12 Lieutenant Colonel Ray Rom -- is it Romses on June 27th, 13 at nine o'clock? 14 A: No, actually that occurred at -- a 15 little later down the page at 14:30 hours -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- when I was paged by Colonel 18 MacDonald. I was being requested by Major General Brian 19 Vernon to attend their meeting at CFB Downsview at 8:30 20 the following morning. 21 Q: Okay. And there's a note, "concerned 22 about the safety of cadets concerning -- considering 23 weapons issue. Expressed the -- " 24 Did he express a concern about that? Was 25 that an issue raised -- that's in your note with -- at


1 14:30. 2 A: I believe those would be my concerns. 3 Q: Okay. Then the reference to 4 Lieutenant Colonel Roy Romses at the top of the page? 5 A: Correct. 6 "We discussed intelligence issues..." 7 Q: Was Major Simia Carr part of this -- 8 A: That's Simon Carr. 9 Q: Yes. Was he part of this 10 conversation? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I'm not sure where this meeting or -- 15 it must have been a meeting at the Military Base on 16 Sunday morning, because both Major Carr and Colonel 17 Romses were -- was involved. 18 But I don't remember Romses being in the 19 area, so I'm not sure if it's a phone call or a face to 20 face. 21 Q: Okay. Now there's an entry, 22 "Discussed intelligence issues"? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And what was that about? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Well, my note says: 4 "If there was a Mexican stand off, 5 there's no need to be concerned about 6 the bush area, it's irrelevant. 7 If the injunction approach use of bush 8 roads, vehicle weapons information 9 necessary to prepare removal. Night 10 recognizance from across the highway 11 will be established. 12 Romses will meet in Toronto this 13 afternoon." 14 So the intelligence issues must have been 15 the activities to date around the Military Base and 16 that's all I can really appreciate that it might be. 17 Q: And might it have been that if the 18 intelligence would have been, perhaps, necessary if an 19 injunction had been granted? Perhaps is that what that's 20 referring to? 21 A: You mean for the development of the 22 Affidavit? 23 Q: No, after the -- if an injunction is 24 granted, you might need intelligence with respect to 25 doing whatever you were ordered to be done, under the


1 order, if one was granted? 2 A: I'm not sure that that discussion -- 3 Q: Or -- 4 A: -- had it advanced that far yet? 5 Q: You don't think it had advanced that 6 far? 7 A: I don't believe so. 8 Q: At this point, at the end of June 9 1993, were you and the Military sharing information, 10 intelligence information? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And what -- when -- when you say 13 "intelligence information," was it simply names of people 14 who were at the Base, and coming to the Base, that kind 15 of information? 16 A: Basically what I was doing, was the 17 reports that you have noted on a number of occasions in - 18 - in the documents, the daily situation reports that we 19 produced from Forest Detachment, that was provided to 20 District Headquarters in Chatham to the London 21 Headquarters and the -- and General Headquarters. 22 That same information would have been 23 provided to Military personnel. 24 Q: So you, oh, I see -- and -- 25 A: So it would be the same content.


1 Q: Same content? 2 A: It may have been verbal in most 3 cases, but -- but basically the same information. 4 Q: And would the -- was the Military 5 providing the OPP with information? 6 A: Yes, their personnel on -- on the 7 base at Ipperwash were preparing daily reports, which 8 they provided me the content of. 9 Q: And was that verbal as well; in most 10 cases? 11 A: And written; I would meet with them 12 regularly. 13 Q: Okay. Then at 16:00 hours you spoke 14 to Chief Superintendent Coles and he approved that you 15 travel to Toronto along with Superintendent Wall? 16 A: Yes, I had a discussion with Coles 17 and he felt it would be important or valuable for 18 Superintendent Wall to be there as well; so we both went 19 to Toronto for the meeting. 20 Q: Okay. And you had the meeting? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And there's a note at page 88, June 23 28th, 1993, CFB Toronto. It starts: 24 "Lieutenant Colonel Matt MacDonald, 25 Lieutenant Bill Fox, Major General


1 Vernon, Captain Bernice -- 2 A: Bernie Derubie. 3 Q: -- Bernie Derubie, excuse me. 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And you were there and Superintendent 6 Wall from the OPP? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And can you tell us about the 9 meeting? 10 A: Yes. The -- they went through 11 basically -- well let me just back up. Colonel MacDonald 12 and his staff had gone to Ipperwash and had done what 13 they termed a reconnaissance, reviewed the geography and 14 location of the occupiers, and basically provided an 15 overview to the -- Major General Brian Vernon. 16 I was present throughout that. And there 17 was some discussion around the various approaches in 18 regards to how the OPP would respond to various things. 19 And talked about the injunction, DCARS, 20 regulations, trespass, Criminal Code, those type of 21 things as -- as they walked through the various options 22 available to them; and basically that was the -- the crux 23 of the meeting. 24 Q: Was there any decisions made as at 25 the end of the meeting? Was the issue of an injunction


1 discussed at the meeting that you recall? 2 A: Well, they certainly talked about the 3 possibility of acting unilaterally and enforcing the 4 controlled access regulations. But I didn't get a sense 5 whether that decision would actually be carried out or 6 not. 7 It was -- certainly seemed to be their 8 preferred approach. And we highlighted that, if that was 9 to happen, it would be necessary for Military personnel 10 to make the initial arrests, then turn over the arrested 11 party to the OPP, and we would continue the arrests and 12 process them through the court system. 13 Q: And then there's a note 01:00 SIU 14 Captain, what's that refer to? Is that part of the same 15 meeting? 16 A: I believe that was discussed that 17 day. 18 "There was some small arms fire near 19 the Provincial Park. The OPP advises 20 the MP's can handle that." 21 It says: 22 "Native police at the main gate." 23 I'm not sure if there was constables from 24 Kettle Point that may have attended. And there was 25 discussion in regards to the camp in the central area


1 near -- near the bush where Clifford George had his site. 2 And access -- there was issues around 3 several natives being near "L" Lake which is back in the 4 -- back in the base. 5 Q: That's up in the norther area of the 6 base towards Lake Huron? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: "There was a significant amount of 10 discussion with Major General Vernon, 11 put forward by Military personnel, in 12 regards to firearms." 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: "And concern about the access and 15 availability and the types of weaponry 16 that might be there." 17 We had a significant amount of discussion, 18 and I recall specifically -- I tried to point out to them 19 that it would be fairly ordinary to expect there will be 20 hunting weapons available. And that -- that didn't mean 21 that someone was going to be subject to fire. 22 And in Major General Vernon's commentary, 23 he suggested that where he came from, and I believe it 24 was Saskatchewan, it was pretty customary to see a 25 varmint rifle hanging in the back window of his pickup


1 truck. 2 And I suggested well we're probably 3 experiencing some of the same type of issues in this 4 matter. 5 Q: The people that were occupying the 6 Base were hunters, and you expected they would have 7 hunting rifles that they would use to hunt? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And he seemed to agree with that? He 10 indicated that he was aware that people might have 11 hunting rifles? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And then there's a note, 14 "One (1) Military commander, Lieutenant 15 Colonel MacDonald, co-locate with OPP." 16 What's that refer to, sir? 17 A: If there's a -- an operation 18 conducted that there would be a co-location of commanders 19 between the Military and the OPP so that there would be a 20 coordination of resources. 21 Q: Then the note, "MPs/OPP"? 22 A: Right, but what I want to very much 23 reiterate here, that if -- if that was to happen while 24 there would be a co-location of command, the OPP officers 25 would not be operating on the Military Base. It would be


1 up to the Military to make the arrests and deliver them 2 to the fence line for lack of a better description. 3 Q: That's based on the Military choosing 4 the option to use the Defence Controlled Access 5 regulations? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: Then at least in the book that we've 8 got, tab -- at Exhibit 397, at page 87 there's a 9 handwritten page of notes, which probably is the back of 10 one of your pages. 11 A: Yes, it is. 12 Q: And which page does it go with? 13 A: It's opposite the one we were just 14 referring to, from Monday the 28th, which is page 68 in 15 the book. 16 Q: And -- 17 A: Or 88, I'm sorry. 18 Q: And so does it refer -- are these the 19 notes that you made at the meeting? What does it refer 20 to? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: It -- it's probably, for lack of a 25 better term, cheat notes I made to assist myself as I was


1 speaking to Major General Vernon. 2 Q: And they deal with portal radios -- 3 portable radios for patrol... 4 A: Municipal officials, business, Kettle 5 Point Band, Maynard George, firearms issue, peaceable 6 historical relationship, local employment, and reaction. 7 There -- there was certainly, at that 8 time, there was much employment of people from Kettle 9 Point at the Military Base for the cadet operation. 10 Q: And as well as other people in the 11 Thetford area -- 12 A: Yes -- 13 Q: -- working? 14 A: Oh, yes, sure. 15 Q: It was a major employer? 16 A: Yes, they were. 17 Q: Then after the meeting, you returned 18 to London? 19 A: Yes, I left for London at 20 approximately 10:45 that morning. 21 Q: And call to Sergeant McDonald? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And he was at the Forest Detachment? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And what were you asking him to do?


1 A: I was asking him to prepare a memo in 2 regards to the police response to Ipperwash, that we 3 would investigate all criminal occurrences, that the 4 Military Police would detain and we would respond and we 5 will review the memo from London. 6 And I suspect that's when I arrive in 7 London, I'll call him and -- 8 Q: And you gave the same message to a 9 constable at Pinery Park Detachment? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Yes, I spoke to Constable Weisma, the 14 sergeant in charge was off that day, and provided the 15 same message and that he contact the Forest Detachment to 16 use the same memo, and ensure that every member was aware 17 of that. 18 Q: So that the members of the OPP 19 understood what their role was going to be with respect 20 to criminal occurrences at the Army Camp? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: And you -- on the next page, page 89, 23 you spoke to Major Howell, among others? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And it says: "Updated info re:


1 response to Ipp -- occupations"? 2 A: Yeah -- yes, I update him in regards 3 to what our -- the OPP response would be, and that would 4 refer to the direction I was providing to the -- both 5 Detachments at Grand Bend and Forest. 6 He advises him the Military Police are 7 unaware of -- of occurrences reported by a special 8 investigative unit. Appears there's information 9 problems, it's kind of embarrassing; they will address 10 that internally. 11 Q: So that the left hand didn't know 12 what the right hand was doing, in colloquially -- 13 A: That's a fair assessment. 14 Q: And at 16:45 there's a note, can you 15 read that note to us? 16 A: Yes. "I was unable to contact 17 Captain Prentice or the Sergeant Major. 18 Call to Lieutenant Colonel Bill Fox. 19 Training is, officer training, it has 20 been approved. Make our people aware. 21 Also advises legal department not 22 supporting injunction route. He has 23 been directed to prepare request for 24 assistance to the Commissioner pursuant 25 to the Criminal Code or DCARS."


1 So, basically, the Military was going to 2 send a -- a letter to the OPP commissioner requesting 3 assistance. 4 Q: Okay. And the reference "training 5 and officer training has been approved", what's that 6 refer to, do you know? 7 A: That was the training that they were 8 going to conduct at CFB Ipperwash. 9 Q: Oh, with -- for Army officers? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And, in fact, a letter was written 12 but I'll get to that in a moment. You also, on the next 13 page, page 90, had a telephone call with Ron Baldwin? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: And it said, "Updated latest 16 meetings." 17 A: Yes, "Cadet training going ahead. 18 Will attend meeting on the 29th of June 19 at 20:00 hours." 20 Q: And you were -- you updated on your 21 meeting with Major General Vernon? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that -- the cadet training was 24 going to go ahead? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: Okay. And you then spoke to Major 2 Simon Carr who wanted a meeting the next day as well? 3 A: Yes, at 7:30 in the morning. 4 Q: Then there's a note at page 90 -- at 5 91, Ken Williams had just -- has been -- perhaps written 6 on the back of one (1) of your pages? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Page 91. 11 A: I see -- I see it on 91, but I don't 12 see it on my -- my own pages. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: And that is probably just Ken and his 15 phone number, I suspect. 16 Q: Then on page 93 and 92, there's a 17 note for you, Colonel Wells and Chief Military cop. 18 If you look back one page you'll see the - 19 - it looks like somebody... 20 A: Yes, and I see the Colonel Wells. 21 Q: You see the page 92? The reference-- 22 A: Oh, I'm sorry. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 A: It's Chief Military cop, I guess. 2 The head of the Military Police. 3 Q: Yes, and that's a simply a note that 4 you -- somebody had handed to you, given to you a 5 telephone call? 6 A: That looks like my writing. I was 7 probably just refer to myself. There's so many Military 8 people, it's hard to -- to know who's responsible for 9 what, so. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: If I could take you back to page 90 14 for a moment, June 28th, at 15:00 there's a note, 15 "Detective Don Bell and Intel." 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Can you tell us what that note says, 21 and what it was about? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Yes, I reviewed their ability to get


1 some photos of the occupiers. 2 "I directed Bell to obtain photos of 3 all the people to be identified and 4 catalogued. Required within the week. 5 If a problem, advise and I will get 6 technical support branch to help them." 7 Q: And why did you want -- why were you 8 instructing him to do that? 9 A: I was concerned that the Military was 10 going to make some decisions and I wanted to make sure I 11 clearly had an understanding of who the occupiers were. 12 Q: And were you aware, at this time, 13 that there had been a video taken in June of the people 14 who were in the Camp, by OPP officers, from Highway 21? 15 A: I don't believe I viewed a video but 16 that -- that would be expected to be done by the 17 intelligence personnel at -- as a matter of course. 18 Q: As part of their information 19 gathering? 20 A: Sure. 21 Q: Then on page 95 there's another entry 22 June 29th '93, 17:20. I take this is your note again? 23 A: Yes, it is. 24 Q: And at the top there's a note that I 25 can't read. Wall --


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Oh I think it's -- it's the names of 4 various people. Wells, and I'm not sure what the next 5 one is, or Blythe, Vernon and Fox. It's a number of 6 Military senior officers, commissioned officers. 7 Q: And then there's a note 17:20, 8 Colonel Wells. Is that a telephone call? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And no injunction. 11 A: "No injunction asked OPP position in 12 regards to the criminal offences. 13 Remove trespassers by Military under 14 the DCARS regulations. Will take 15 action if criminal offence. Example, 16 assault, will continue the arrest at 17 the fence." 18 There's a note about recognisance. 19 "Will deal with breach of the peace. 20 "Colonel will call back tomorrow." 21 Q: So the Colonel is telling you that 22 the Military is not going to get an injunction and asking 23 the OPP what its position is with respect to criminal 24 offences? 25 A: Right. Once more they're -- they're


1 trying to reaffirm what we will or will not do. 2 Q: And the reference "will continue 3 arrest at fence" what's that refer to? 4 A: That's correct. That refers to my 5 comments earlier about the Military unilaterally removing 6 personnel under their own regulations, making an arrest 7 and that we would continue the arrest upon turnover at 8 the fence line. 9 Q: So with respect to any arrests they 10 made under the defence controlled access regulations, the 11 Ontario Provincial Police were not going to go into base 12 to assist them, but would take over the arrested persons 13 at the fence line? 14 A: We were -- we were going to take no 15 enforcement action regarding trespassers on that Military 16 Base. 17 Q: Then you had a call with 18 Superintendent Wall at 17:35? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: "Updated. Will deal with breach of 21 peace. Agrees with security in short 22 term." 23 A: Yes. 24 "He agrees with the security in the 25 short term, seventy-two (72) to ninety-


1 six (96) hour of prep. Twenty-four 2 (24) to seventy-two (72) hours to 3 establish perimeters." 4 And this is referring to the time it would 5 take the Military to put their plan in place and 6 mobilize. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: So we were basically analysing how 9 much time we would require to -- to have our personnel 10 and strategies in place upon some decision making of the 11 Military. 12 Q: And then Temagami sections. What's 13 that refer to? 14 A: Well, there had been a blockade in 15 the -- or occupations in the Temagami area in the recent 16 past when we're speaking of 1993. So we were looking to 17 determine what steps had been taken in Temagami in 18 regards to criminal charges or whatever legislation was 19 being applied. 20 And it was identifying some people from 21 the North Bay District Headquarters who would have 22 knowledge of that process. 23 Q: And then there's a note, call -- 24 A: Anne McChesney (phonetic) in the a.m. 25 She's -- was I believe the deputy director of legal


1 services for the Ministry at that time. 2 Q: The Ministry of the Solicitor 3 General? 4 A: It could have been the A.G.'s office. 5 Q: And what were you going to call her 6 about? 7 A: I believe it would have been in 8 regards to the legal issues around this whole potential 9 operation that might occur. 10 Q: Then later that day, you had a 11 meeting, you attended a meeting at the Bosanquet 12 Township? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: At eight o'clock or 20:00 hours? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And it's at page 96. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the meeting was attended by Mr. 19 Norm Shawnoo from Kettle Point? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: Mayor Fred Thomas? 22 A: Yes. Mayor Tom Lawson from Grand 23 Bend; Mayor Minielly from Forest; Inspector Charlie 24 Turner from Chatham District Headquarters; Ken Williams 25 the Administrator, Bosanquet Township; Superintendent Les


1 Kobayashi, Provincial Park, Ipperwash, Pinery; Ron 2 Baldwin from the Natural Resources; Sergeant MacDonald 3 from the Forest Detachment. 4 There was some discussion around the 1827 5 Treaty, the 1919 issues with the Stoney Point and Kettle 6 Point as they split away from the Sarnia Reserve. 7 Twenty-eight (28) formal applications for 8 social assistance -- there was some discussion there, I 9 believe, the issue was a number of occupiers of the 10 Military Base had applied to the Township for some social 11 assistance; some discussion they had on that. 12 And, thirty-one (31) location ticket 13 holders, I believe that relates to the families of 14 personnel who were displaced from Ipperwash in 1942. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: "Municipal officials took the 17 position that the issue must be 18 resolved, they will attempt to meet 19 with the Member of Parliament Tom 20 Hawkin ASAP, present their concerns in 21 regards to the local economy. They -- 22 there was input from Mr. Shawnoo in 23 regards to the Kettle Point Band 24 support and some discussion about the 25 welfare issue and that inaction was not


1 a viable alternative in their view. 2 Q: In the Municipal authorities view? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And, the KB -- the KP Band support, 5 can you tell us, do you recall that -- what that refers 6 to? 7 A: There -- there was -- it was public 8 knowledge in the media and otherwise that the Kettle 9 Point Band did not support the occupation of Ipperwash by 10 this group and it was not representative of the Band's 11 approach to this issue. 12 Q: And then, under the 1827 Treaty, 13 there's written beside it, "Walpole, Sarnia, Kettle 14 Point" and that -- the Walpole, Sarnia and Kettle Point 15 refer to the 1827 Treaty? 16 A: I believe so, yes. 17 Q: And who spoke about the 1827 Treaty 18 and the 1919 division of the Band where Kettle and Stoney 19 Point broke away from Sarnia? 20 A: I can't remember specifically how 21 that was addressed, but I would suspect from my knowledge 22 of Mr. Shawnoo and his expertise in that area, I'd be 23 greatly surprised if it was anyone else but himself. 24 Q: And do you recall any reaction by the 25 Municipal officials? Did they know about this history or


1 did they appear to know about it from your perspective? 2 A: I didn't sense that there was any 3 surprises to anyone. 4 Q: Then, on the next page, it's undated, 5 page 97? 6 A: Yes? 7 Q: What date is that, sir? I presume 8 it's the next day. 9 A: It -- it has to -- 10 Q: June the 30th. 11 A: Yeah, it must be, because it's still 12 in June. 13 Q: You spoke to Colonel Wells who was at 14 CFB Ottawa, updated on the Municipal building -- meeting? 15 A: Yes, he -- I updated him on the 16 meeting, obviously from -- it appears to be the night 17 before and that he will call if any information is 18 imminent. Expects a decision tomorrow and that is in 19 regards to what action the Military intends to take. 20 Q: Okay. Then, you had a 21 discussion with Colonel Macdonald at 10:00 hours? 22 A: Yes, I updated him on the threat 23 assessment that was conducted by Staff Sergeant Lacroix 24 in regards to the water plant at -- it's -- actually, the 25 water plant is in -- within the confines of the


1 Provincial Park, but provides water to the Military Base. 2 Q: And, when you say you provided the 3 threat assessment, what was the concern that was being 4 looked at by Staff Sergeant Loller? 5 A: Lacroix? 6 Q: Lacroix, excuse me. 7 A: It -- it was simply a matter of the 8 issue of the water had the potential of being 9 contaminated and there was, I believe, chlorine tanks 10 within the Ipperwash water plant. 11 Q: And what was the result of the threat 12 assessment? 13 A: Well there was no result. It was 14 just an assessment. 15 Q: Oh, it -- just simply looked at it? 16 A: Yeah, it was just -- just an 17 awareness. 18 Q: Okay. Then 10:15 you spoke to David 19 Spring at the legal department? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And: 22 "Request assistance re: info and 23 charges, i.e., mischief." 24 A: Correct and he was asked in regards 25 to the removal of the occupiers by the Military in


1 regards to the defence controlled access regulations. 2 The arrest authority that goes with that, what charges 3 would apply, the issues around release pursuant to a 4 recognizance. 5 And Spring was going to check -- it's 6 Eileen Hipner's file and call me back. 7 Q: So you were again simply seeking 8 advice as to what the OPP could or could not do? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Then again you spoke to Colonel 11 McDonald? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: And what's that? 14 A: He indicated that: 15 "He will be coming to London on Monday. 16 Department of National Defence will be 17 the lead ministry. Special negotiator 18 to get two (2) sides together. Will 19 fly to Toronto and meet with Major 20 General Brian Vernon, on to London, and 21 he will be there until there is a 22 resolution." 23 Q: Is he still there? Or was he there 24 in -- on July 29th, do you know? 25 A: I believe he did arrive at -- or


1 there was no action taken. 2 Q: Okay. If I could take you to Inquiry 3 document 7000282 which is in that black book in front of 4 you, the small one , at Tab 19, and this is a letter from 5 the Department of National Defence, signed by Major 6 General W.B. Vernon, addressed to Commissioner T. O'Grady 7 of the Ontario Provincial Police and it's dated June 8 29th, 1993. 9 Have you seen a copy of this letter 10 before, sir? 11 A: I believe I have, but I'm not sure 12 where I saw it. 13 Q: And this was a letter with respect to 14 your -- the meeting you and Superintendent Wall had with 15 Major General Vernon? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And he indicates that, in the second 18 paragraph: 19 "The Department of National Defence's 20 aim is that you arrive at a long term 21 peaceful solution to the difficulties 22 presented by the illegal occupation of 23 Camp Ipperwash by the SPG." 24 He goes on, and the next paragraph: 25 "However, if there should be a change


1 in the circumstances at Camp Ipperwash 2 that would represent a threat to 3 personnel training or working at camp 4 Ipperwash, or the imminent threat of 5 destruction of public property it would 6 then be necessary to take action to 7 effect the eviction of the SPG from 8 Ipperwash." 9 And the next paragraph: 10 "Removal of the SPG from the defence 11 establishment at Camp Ipperwash is 12 provided under -- for under the defence 13 controlled access area regulations, a 14 copy is attached for your information. 15 Please note the paragraphs 9 and 10 and 16 Section 41 of the Criminal Code of 17 Canada." 18 And the next -- last paragraph: 19 "It is our hope that the situation may 20 be resolved without resort to the use 21 of physical force. It is provided for 22 by the aforementioned regulations. Our 23 most recent information, however, 24 indicates that the SPG is firmly wedded 25 to the object of a permanent occupation


1 of DND property. 2 Should the circumstances warrant, an 3 order will be issued under paragraph 9 4 of the attached and we trust that we 5 may rely upon you as peace officers to 6 respond to our call. We believe that 7 the appearance presented by the Ontario 8 Provincial Police would be less 9 confrontational than unilateral action 10 on the part of the federal 11 authorities." 12 And, so the -- at least Major General 13 Vernon is setting out the position that, if they're going 14 to do anything, they're going to do it under the Defence 15 Controlled Access Area Regulations? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And you understood that, at or about 18 that time, that there was their position? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And he seems to be asking the 21 Commissioner O'Grady to have the OPP help them deal with 22 -- if they -- if they move under the Defence Controlled 23 Access Regulations. 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And were you given such an order?


1 A: Well, this -- it just dovetails what 2 the plan that was already in place. 3 Q: The OPP would only help once the 4 people were brought to the fence line? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And the position of the OPP before 7 and after this letter remained the same. If the Military 8 did something, then the OPP wasn't going to do anything 9 until the people were brought out -- outside the army 10 camp? 11 A: Correct. Short of issues where it 12 was necessary to keep the peace for everyone's safety's 13 purpose or things like a Criminal Code investigation. 14 Q: Then if I can take you to Tab 3 and 15 there are some notes -- 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Sorry, the number 17 of the last document, I have 7000, but -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It is 7000282. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It is? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right, thank 22 you. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And that's the one we 24 just had on the screen. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So it's Tab


1 3 you're on, Mr. Millar? 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Pardon me? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you say 4 Tab 3 now? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 3. No, excuse me, 6 Tab 4 -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 4. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- page 99. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And you had a call that -- on the 14 morning with Chief Superintendent Coles and I note that 15 the Military seemed anxious to resolve. You updated them 16 on your meeting, your -- your discussion with Colonel 17 Wells, your Military meeting. 18 And then there's a note: 19 "Discussed OPP options, i.e., DCARS, CC 20 mischief, Military action unilateral or 21 joint." 22 And what's that refer to? 23 A: Well, Military action unilateral 24 versus joint. We were just concerned that the Military 25 was going to take a unilateral approach and -- and put us


1 in an awkward spot to deal with this. 2 So it was just a discussion piece because 3 it was -- it seemed to be that there was some anxiety to 4 move on this. 5 Q: From the Military? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And then you got, at 10:15, a call 8 from Colonel Wells from Ottawa? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you -- there's a note: 11 "Feel situation may be longer term." 12 Is that correct? 13 A: Yes from mid to late July. 14 Q: And what did that refer to? 15 A: Well, I get the sense that maybe they 16 were standing down the -- the potential of -- of 17 conducting an eviction. 18 Q: Okay. Then there's a -- you updated 19 Inspector Turner with respect to Colonel Walls. Then 20 there's a note, 13:15 -- 21 A: Inspector Wayne Isbester (phonetic), 22 RCMP Wes Cam and his phone number. 23 Q: And what's that refer to? 24 A: I must have made a request to the 25 RCMP in regards to the availability of the Wes Cam


1 system. 2 Q: And before I forget because we're 3 going to get to it in the next entry, perhaps we could 4 mark this letter from Major Commander -- Major General 5 Vernon as the next exhibit. It would be Exhibit 402. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. P-402, Your 7 Honour. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. 402: Document No. 7000282 letter from 11 Major General W.B. Vernon, 12 Commander, Dept. of National 13 Defence to Commissioner T. O'Grady 14 OPP re: meeting with Wall & Carson 15 about occupation of Camp Ipperwash 16 Stoney Point Group 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: At 13:20, you spoke to Chief 20 Superintendent Coles or did you meet with him? 21 A: I must have spoken to him on the 22 phone. I don't think I could've made it to his office 23 that quick. 24 Q: Okay. And he refers, letter -- 25 A: Being delivered to Commissioner


1 O'Grady today. 2 Q: Is that the letter that we've just 3 marked P-402? Is that your understanding? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: "The RCMP providing the Wes Cam 7 service, [it looks like] no charge. 8 Assist in command post operations. Lias 9 with Inspector Isbester and Superintendent 10 Russ Santor (phonetic) re: assistance if 11 needed." 12 Q: Okay. Then on the next page, Sunday, 13 July 4th '93: 14 "Attend Ipperwash base, met with 15 Military Police and Captain Prentice. 16 Discussed issue of -- 17 A: Tires across roadway. 18 Q: And what's that refer to? 19 A: I can only guess that there was some 20 tires left on -- on some of the driveways in the Military 21 Base at best. 22 Q: Now, at page 163 there's a meeting -- 23 there's some notes on July the 6th, but on page 164 and 24 165 there are separate notes, and 166, that deal with a 25 variety of issues including the historical background.


1 And -- do you see those notes? 2 A: On 164? 3 Q: On 164, 165 and 166. I mean -- 4 excuse me, 104, 105 and 106. As Mr. Sandler said, I'm 5 getting anxious. 6 Two (2) of these pages are marked, 7 "document not previously disclosed", 105 and 106. 8 Perhaps these were -- are in the wrong 9 place but they are your notes? 10 A: Yes, they are. Oh yes. 11 Q: And the top part is the historical 12 background to Kettle and Stony Point in the CFB 13 Ipperwash; that's really what it's talking about in that 14 note at page 105? 15 A: Correct. It looks they're basically 16 the historical rendering of activities to-date. 17 Q: The Inquiry Document Number for this, 18 even though it said, "document not previously disclosed", 19 is 2002744. Is this in the wrong place or? 20 A: I'm not sure it was a note that I 21 would call my day-to-day notes. Obviously it's -- it's 22 some writings that I had prepared and I had maintained 23 over the years, but it's not something that I would refer 24 to as my day-to-day notes. 25 Q: And then on the next page, page 106,


1 there's -- it starts: 2 "Concern re cadets 13:00, 10 July, 3 18:00 [something] staff." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: "And OPP supports injunction 6 approach." 7 A: Yes. "Military may act under DECARS. 8 OPP responsible despite Federal 9 property. Legal advice clearly an OPP 10 jurisdiction. 11 Prefer injunction. Remove alone. 12 Checkpoints were identified. MCU for 13 communications [that's a mobile command 14 unit]. ATV's for beat area. Marine 15 from 6 District. If injunction grace 16 period forty-eight (48) to seventy-two 17 (72) hours, secure area twenty-four 18 (24) hours. Five (5) ERT teams, 19 Centralia AG college." 20 So it's kind of a planning piece, strategy 21 piece to understand how we arrived at the point and time 22 we were at. 23 Q: And at page 104, does this note go 24 with the notes at page 103? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I'm not sure where that note comes 4 from. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Again, it's -- it's notes that I've 9 taken but they're not my day-to-day notes. 10 Q: They're not in your day-to-day notes? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And it's simply dealing -- it's 13 dealing with -- there's a note, 14 "Lieutenant Colonel McDonald, Military 15 incident commander require Cabinet 16 approval. Concern for safety of 17 cadets." 18 Do you recall what that would -- what 19 that's referring to? 20 A: That -- that would be if there was a 21 removal of the occupiers while the Base had cadets posted 22 there, the issue of the safety of the cadets was 23 something that had to be addressed. 24 Q: And, "require cabinet approval"? 25 A: Yes, my understanding in order to do


1 that, they would need, according to McDonald, Federal 2 Cabinet approval before they could act. 3 Q: Okay. Then if I could take you to 4 page 108. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: 11:40, a telephone call with -- there 9 was one (1), excuse me, at 11:30, there's a telephone 10 call from Colonel McDonald. 11 A: On 108? 12 Q: On page no -- 109, excuse me. My 13 numbers are not very clear. July 12th, '93. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Oh, I'm sorry. I did -- I do have 18 the -- in the later pages here, in -- following July 7th, 19 the notes in regards to these pages. We talked about, 20 this historical background piece that we just reviewed; 21 it is in here. 22 Q: And -- so it's after your note for 23 Wednesday, July 7 '93? 24 A: Actually it's in the middle of it. 25 Q: It's in the middle of it?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: July 12th. July 12th. 3 A: Yes. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: So, we were at July -- actually, if 10 we could just move back. 11 On July 9th, there was a -- you had a 12 number of calls, but there was one (1), 10:21, to 13 Sergeant Bill Grodzinski G-R-O-D-Z-I-N-S-K-I, "re: crowd 14 management with Military"? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: What's that refer to? 17 A: I was contacting Grodzinski. He was 18 one of the ERT leaders from the Toronto area and he was 19 involved with the crowd management training, and had some 20 discussion about using crowd management in regards to the 21 potential Military operations. 22 Q: Okay. And anything else? It says, 23 "Public order concept"; what's that refer to? 24 A: That's the -- at this particular 25 point in time, in the 1993, we had done a review of crowd


1 management and had begun training our crowd management 2 people in -- in a different technique of crowd management 3 than we had utilised in the past. And it was methods 4 that were developed in Britain that had been adopted and 5 was in the process of being trained for OPP personnel. 6 Q: And can you tell us a little bit 7 about what this was? 8 A: I guess, for an example, 9 traditionally crowd -- crowd control or riot control as 10 it had been called for years, was you'd bring a group of 11 officers in, in a wedge formation and you'd move and 12 depart or, you know, move the crowd back, spreading them 13 back. 14 But the -- in Britain they had developed 15 another concept where you used squads of officers that 16 are spread out in various formations and used -- used it 17 to psychological advantage to move crowds and 18 particularly to move crowds in directions that were 19 conducive to where you wanted them to go. 20 And so it was a significantly different 21 psychological approach to crowd management or riot 22 training as we had experienced in the past. 23 Q: And so this was in the process of 24 being adopted by the Ontario Provincial Police in '93? 25 A: Yes, training had been underway for a


1 year or so at that point. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: But he -- Bill Grodzinski was one of 4 the people who had some experience in that area. 5 Q: And then it says, "non- 6 confrontational approach". 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And what's that refer to? 9 A: I'm not sure if -- if that was 10 something I reiterated to him or if he was explaining to 11 me some of the tactics of the crowd management techniques 12 themselves. So, I'm not sure which it is. 13 Q: Okay. Then, on the next page, July - 14 - oh, if I might, the -- I may have misspoke myself, the 15 telephone call with Bill Grodzinski, was -- was that -- 16 is that 13:00 hours? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Okay. And, on July 12th/'93 at 11:40 19 you had a call with Don Bell (phonetic)? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And, there's a reference, "Wfs Cam 22 Tuesday a.m. 11:00"; does that refer to Wes Cam? 23 A: Yeah, that's Wes -- Wes Cam, yes, 24 Tuesday at 11:00. 25 Q: "Advise of photo required?"


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: What's that refer to? 3 A: That -- well, I was having a 4 discussion with him in regards to what photos we were 5 looking for. 6 Q: And, what were you looking for? 7 A: We were looking for photos of -- of - 8 - topographical photos of the Military Base. 9 Q: All right. "TRU team re: video 10 stills tomorrow"; what's that refer to? 11 A: Well, the -- the TRU team had, at 12 that time, a -- a printer. You could run video and you 13 could freeze-frame it and they had a printer that would 14 print off of the -- the frozen slide. 15 Q: So, they were equip -- 16 A: It was -- 17 Q: And that's what you were looking for 18 was -- 19 A: It was simply some equipment that 20 they had available to them. 21 Q: Then, skip forward to page 113. And 22 this is an undated page unless it is the back page of 23 July 14th, 1993, which is page 114? 24 A: It's -- it's in order here, but I 25 suspect it's notes I made as of July 14th. It looks like


1 I was getting prepared for a meeting that took place at 2 the London -- at the London PD Headquarters. 3 Q: And, the -- so these were simply -- 4 it's entitled, Intelligence Info -- Info. 5 It's your notes in preparation for the 6 meeting? 7 A: Correct. It was a framework that I 8 was going to address on my own as -- as I did my 9 presentation at that meeting, yes. 10 Q: And, it's discussing the joint -- the 11 joint forces -- 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: -- operation? 14 A: Yeah, it's -- it's basically an 15 intelligence review. 16 Q: Okay. And then, there's a note 17 under, "Joint Intelligence Centre Police/Military 18 Impartiality"; what's that refer to? 19 A: That -- that I wanted to make it very 20 clear that the police had a role and the Military had a 21 role and they were two (2) distinct issues. The Miliary 22 was basically, for lack of a better term, the landlord of 23 the property and I didn't want to be seen as being 24 supportive of either the Military issues or the 25 Occupiers' issues; that as a police agency that we


1 remained neutral. 2 And I wanted to make it very clear to the 3 participants of that meeting while we needed to cooperate 4 and exchange information, we didn't want to be seen as 5 siding with one (1) part of the discussion or the other. 6 Q: Then you have a note, "Product ID of 7 each occupant." 8 A: Yes, that's what -- that basically is 9 what I was looking for to be achieved by the intelligence 10 people was to ID each encampment, the vehicles at each 11 encampment, the persons who would normally be at each 12 encampment and to do a -- a record check of the 13 identification of those persons. 14 Q: So, this is, in effect, what you want 15 to get from them and then lower down you say, "To-date 16 info Detachment JFO SIU Captain..."? 17 A: Brian East (phonetic). 18 Q: Who is he? 19 A: He's a -- a Military Intelligence 20 Officer. 21 Q: And, the to-date info is referring to 22 -- what's that referring to? 23 A: That's how information is coming 24 forward. Up to that point in time we were getting 25 information from the Detachment personnel, from the -


1 Q: At Forest. Forest. 2 A: -- joint forces. In Forest, yes. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: From joint forces operations and from 5 the Special Investigations Unit, Military and from the 6 Military Intelligence through Brian East. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And what we were trying to do -- this 9 -- my objective here, is in the next line is that we 10 wanted a common product for all agencies, didn't want to 11 be literally tripping over each other. 12 Q: So you wanted everyone to have the 13 same information and provide it consistently to everyone 14 else? 15 A: That would be desirable. 16 Q: Then the meeting itself was held on 17 July 14th? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And you simply have a note about 20 that? 21 A: Yes. It was at the London City 22 Police Headquarters in their boardroom. 23 Q: Okay. And then on page 115, July 24 14/'93 at 9:15 you had a telephone call with MNR, Ron 25 Baldwin and the first note:


1 "Discussed latest issues, reach 2 [something] for entry to DND --" 3 A: Yes. 4 "Discussed latest issues reference 5 charging for entry to the Department of 6 National Defence beach. Advise of 7 discussion with Les Kobayshi and 8 monitor any affect on..." 9 And it's not complete. 10 Q: And what's that referring to? 11 A: That's, I believe, some discussion 12 that was taking place in regards to a -- an attempt to 13 charge a fee to enter the Military beach on Lake Huron. 14 Q: And the Military beach ran to the 15 east -- northeast I guess, from the beach in front of 16 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And then there was -- you had a 19 discussion with Staff Sergeant McDonald re. -- I take it 20 that's Matheson Drive? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: And can you tell us what that note 23 says? 24 A: It says: 25 "Call from Sergeant McDonald re.


1 Matheson Drive Ipperwash. Information 2 from R. Barnett (phonetic) [that's Rob 3 Barnett] Ipperwash Park. Natives have 4 taken control of the gate at the 5 entrance to Matheson Drive." 6 That's where Matheson Drive meets Army 7 Camp Road. I directed Sergeant McDonald to contact the 8 Township of Bosanquet to ascertain the ownership of that 9 roadway. 10 Q: And then -- 11 A: Historically there was a gate at 12 Matheson Drive. So, if you turned off of Army Camp Road 13 onto Matheson Drive there would be a gate that was 14 normally locked after -- after business hours. 15 Q: After business hours? 16 A: Or in -- in the evening anyhow. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps that would be 18 a good time to stop for lunch, sir? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 20 that's right. You're on page 115 about halfway through. 21 You want us to quit there? Do you want to stop there or 22 do you want to finish. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, we can stop 24 right there. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.


1 Okay, we'll stop now for lunch. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 3 adjourned until 2:15. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 1:04 p.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 2:16 p.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed, please be seated. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, 14 Commissioner. Good afternoon, Deputy Commissioner. 15 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: The -- we were looking at page 113 of 19 the entries for July 14th, 1993, just before lunch and 20 the entry at 13:50, a telephone call by you to Detective 21 Superintendent Wall and that -- this is about the 22 Matheson Drive, I take it? 23 A: Correct, sir. Correct. 24 Q: And can you just tell -- tell us a 25 little bit about this call, the substance of this call?


1 A: "Phone call to Deputy Superintendent 2 Wall. Agreed that if the road is 3 township or MNR [that was something we 4 needed to determine]. Seek advice of 5 owner if they wish access to be 6 controlled. The request -- request 7 removal of sentry or remove via charge 8 and recognizance." 9 Q: What's that refer to? 10 A: I'm not sure. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: It appears just to have been a 15 discussion that we were having in regards to how you 16 might address that issue. 17 Q: So, the concern was that who owned 18 the road, Matheson Drive? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And then, there's a call at 13:55, 21 Sergeant MacDonald? 22 A: Yes, he called back and confirmed 23 that Bosanquet Township owned the road and maintained it. 24 "The Ministry of Natural Resources 25 agrees to lock each night due to the


1 Park security. Macdonald was directed 2 to contact Mayor Fred Thomas and 3 ascertain if there was a concern by the 4 Township. MacDonald advised there is 5 one (1) van with two (2) males and one 6 (1) female at the gate observed by the 7 Ministry of Natural Resources at 13:28 8 hours." 9 Q: And then, later on that same day, 10 July 14th, on the next page, there's a call at 15:00, I 11 think it is, with Ken Williams, the Administrator? 12 A: That's right. He called and 13 indicated they'd be calling back in about half an hour 14 with Mayor Thomas on the line. 15 Q: And at 15:45 there's a call with 16 Mayor Thomas and Ken Williams? 17 A: That's correct and they request that: 18 "The Natives not be allowed to impede, 19 solicit, camp or in any way interfere 20 with the township roads, include 21 Matheson Drive. Will seek an 22 injunction if needed. I assured him 23 the OPP would address the issue as soon 24 as possible, warned the individuals to 25 leave or be arrested."


1 Q: And at this point what was happening 2 on Matheson Drive, people were just standing by the gate, 3 by the entrance? 4 A: They -- they were standing on the 5 roadway and stopping traffic as it entered. 6 Q: Okay. And then on the next day, July 7 15th, you had a discussion with Ron Baldwin? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: At ten o'clock? 10 A: Yes. We discuss access to Matheson 11 Drive. This action by the natives was causing complaints 12 at the Park. At 01:00 that date there had been noise and 13 lights being shone into the Park. The Department of 14 Natural -- Department of National Defence were removing 15 native signs and replacing them with National Defence 16 signage. 17 Q: And what -- do you know what that was 18 referring to? 19 A: I believe there was some signage down 20 near the beach front, on the miliary base, that had been 21 taken down and they were removing the First Nations signs 22 that had been erected and replacing them with National 23 Defence signage. 24 Q: And did you see one of the First 25 Nations signs?


1 A: Did I see it personally? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: I would have. 4 Q: Do you recall what was on it? 5 A: Not at this point in time. 6 Q: Okay. Then there's a note about 7 digging a trench? 8 A: Yes, digging a trench to prevent 9 access by vehicles to the beach area. 10 Q: And who was doing that? 11 A: I'm making an assumption that that 12 would be the occupiers doing that in the area of the 13 military beach. 14 Q: To prevent going on to the military 15 beach? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: Okay. Yes? 18 A: Also advises that Ewart -- that's 19 Scott Ewart, 20 "Contact the Ministry of Natural 21 resources yesterday and inquired about 22 logging permits on CFB Ipperwash. Were 23 advised that the Ministry of Natural 24 Resources do not deal with the base. 25 Have to check with the military. Ewart


1 advised that Maynard does not recognize 2 the military." 3 Q: Okay. And at -- there's a call at 4 10:45 with Bernie... 5 A: Yeah, Bernie Derubie. 6 Q: Derubie? 7 A: Captain of the military from CFB 8 Petawawa. He calls -- there's some commentary here about 9 radio frequency for helicopters and referred to Brampton 10 unit, Sergeant Crate. 11 Sergeant Crate is one of our members 12 responsible for our helicopter operations. 13 Q: And at this point in time, in July 14 1993, the middle of July 1993, to your knowledge was the 15 military performing helicopter surveillance over the Army 16 Camp? 17 A: They did conduct aerial surveillance, 18 but I couldn't tell you if they were doing it at this 19 point. Yeah, they ended up doing it later on in August 20 for sure -- 21 Q: For sure, we know that. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: But I -- off the top of my head, I 25 couldn't tell you if they were doing it on any regularity


1 at this point in time or not. 2 Q: Okay. Then at page 113, July 13th, 3 15:15, you had a... 4 A: Captain East attended my office. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: "Discussed the situation that had 7 indicated use of camouflage, hunkering 8 down at the church [as he explained 9 it], firearms et cetera. Flavour of -- 10 flavour of rep indicated a priority to 11 address the church build up. 12 Expressed my opinion that most of the 13 information was likely inaccurate and 14 speculation. 15 I would have difficulty taking any 16 action based on this erroneous 17 information. 18 Captain East expressed similar concerns 19 and seemed satisfied with my position. 20 Also indicated that police agencies are 21 being perceived to have a different 22 agenda. I reinforced again the OPP 23 position related to the legal issues 24 and all 10-4." 25 Everything was fine.


1 Q: Okay. So that whatever -- the 2 information that he had you simply did not accept as 3 being correct? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And that was on July 15th and not 6 July 13th. 7 Then, on July 16th, you got a call from -- 8 or you called Colonel McDonald at Petawawa? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: Yes. Can you tell us about that 11 call? 12 A: Discussed the policing objectives. I 13 assured him the OPP position had not altered at all. And 14 that we were getting negative vibes, as I put it here, 15 about the local involved military. 16 "Discussed the church issue. Advised 17 him of a call from Captain Prentice in 18 regard to some issue with Sergeant 19 Beacock. 20 Advised him that I felt it was not a 21 priority to seek approval under warrant 22 conditions. Police have other jobs to 23 consider. 24 MacDonald will call Captain Prentice 25 and have him cease this issue."


1 Q: And can you -- do you call what this 2 issue was? 3 A: I'm not sure of the specifics of it 4 but I -- I believe it was -- 5 Q: Something the military wanted you to 6 do and you didn't particularly want to do it? 7 A: Well I -- I was getting the sense 8 that they were -- I'm -- I'm not sure of the term 9 overreaction is the right term but maybe overly sensitive 10 or being overly dramatic. 11 Q: Okay. Then at page 122 there's a 12 number of issues, but at the bottom of the page at 15:30 13 there's at 1021 to Inspector --" 14 A: Boniface (phonetic). 15 Q: Boniface, okay. 16 A: "Request a faxed copy of policing 17 agreement for First Nations. She 18 requests a call after discussion with 19 Maynard George." 20 Q: And what was that about? 21 A: I believe it was around that time 22 there was some discussion by Maynard that he wanted the 23 area policed by First Nations officers, not regular OPP 24 officers. 25 And I believe I was seeking out some


1 information in regards to how the First Nations agreement 2 was constructed. 3 Q: Actually if haste makes waste -- at 4 the top of the page at 11:03, there's a telephone call 5 you had with Sergeant Beacock with respect to a call he 6 had had with Maynard George? 7 A: Oh that's correct, yes, yes. Yeah 8 Maynard had been in contact with Marion Boyd, the 9 provincial representative at that time. 10 Q: And Marion Boyd at the time was the 11 Attorney General? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: "And to set up police here for --" 14 A: "To set up police force for 15 Ravenswood to Goderich. Needed a boat 16 for patrol and advise Sergeant Beacock 17 the OPP position re: charges on the 18 township roads." 19 Q: "Wouldn't accept action of yesterday 20 --" 21 A: "Would have to be treated -- would 22 not accept the actions of yesterday and 23 in Mike's words 'be treated like a 24 shithead'. Clearly advised Maynard of 25 police perspective."


1 Pardon the French. 2 Q: And what -- what happened yesterday, 3 do you recall what's that referring to? 4 A: Yes, I believe Sergeant Beacock may 5 have had some, I'm not sure of the altercation, but there 6 was certainly some dialogue there that he wasn't happy 7 with the way it progressed. 8 Q: And who did he have the dialogue 9 with? 10 A: I believe it was with Maynard. 11 Q: With May -- okay. Then at 14:00, 12 11:15 there's -- you discussed with -- updated Detective 13 Superintendent Wall on Maynard's intentions, is that -- 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And then at 14:00? 16 A: "Faxed Number 1 District Headquarters 17 reference Stoney Point from Maynard 18 George re: policing advising they will 19 start their own policing program. 20 Discussed that with Inspector McKenna. 21 [Note here that] Sergeant Beacock was 22 checking Matheson Drive re: Natives 23 stopping motorists. Believed to be 24 John George. If motorists stopped, 25 charges and arrest would result."


1 Q: Okay. And on the same day, July 16th 2 at 17:45 there's a note, you're on Highway 21? 3 A: 19:45? 4 Q: 19:45, excuse me. 5 A: Yes. Yes. 6 "Southbound Highway 21 near Outer 7 Drive, Port Franks." 8 And that's simply a traffic violation on 9 the way. 10 Q: Oh, that's a traffic violation, okay. 11 I couldn't read that so. 12 A: I suppose my -- my other duties as 13 assigned. 14 Q: Okay. And then, at 17:40 on -- at 15 page 124, what day is that referring to? I think it's 16 probably referring to Saturday, July 17th. 17 A: I believe that's accurate. 18 Q: And the note actually starts at -- on 19 page 125, is that correct? 20 A: Yes, the pages are out of order. 21 Q: The pages are out of order? 22 A: They're -- they're out of order in 23 the original here. 24 Q: Oh, in the original? So, on 25 Saturday, July 17th, there was an incident at County Road


1 3 and Matheson Drive. County Road 3 is Army Camp Road? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And we've heard of an incident 4 referred to as, "the toll incident," is this the toll 5 incident? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And can you tell us what you did and 8 what you were doing there at 13:10 on Saturday, July 9 17th? 10 A: "I attended the junction of Army Camp 11 Road and Matheson Drive with Mike 12 Beacock, Constable Parks was there as 13 well. Maynard and Glenn George 14 attended in a vehicle. Scott Ewart was 15 parked in a Jeep Cherokee at the corner 16 of Matheson Drive. 17 Maynard approached and advised they 18 would be setting up a booth on Matheson 19 Drive. I asked him why he wanted his 20 people to be arrested, he said he had 21 to -- he had to [I believe it's] learn 22 to speak to his people. Advised that 23 Scott Ewart would be his agent. 24 I informed Maynard and Ewart that I did 25 not recognize Ewart as any authority


1 and if Ewart counselled the people to 2 commit a criminal offence, that he, 3 too, would be charged with conspiracy. 4 Ewart stated that he would call their 5 lawyer in Nova Scotia. I informed him 6 that a lawyer would not counsel anyone 7 to commit a criminal offence. He began 8 to say that the road is unceded and not 9 Township property. 10 I informed him as far as I was 11 concerned Matheson Drive is a part of 12 the township and if he disagreed he 13 could deal with it in the Civil Court." 14 Q: Then you have some calls with 15 Inspector McKinnon and Superintendent Wall and then... 16 A: That's correct. I -- I notified both 17 of -- both of those officers. 18 Q: And then it -- it continues on page 19 126 in our book where you request assistance, is that 20 correct? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: That's correct. I have asked for two 25 (2) cars from Grand Bend, one (1) from Sombra and two (2)


1 from Petrolia. 2 Q: And at this point in time, was -- did 3 you observe anyone charging a toll or simply stopping the 4 cars? 5 A: From my vantage point I could see 6 vehicles being stopped and the drivers being approached. 7 Q: Then, at 14:10 it says: 8 "Two (2) cars taken [something] to 9 Highway 79." 10 A: Taken back to Highway 79. 11 Q: And what's that refer to? 12 A: I'm not sure. 13 Q: 14:40, you return to County Road 3 14 and Matheson Drive? 15 A: Yes. 16 "An elderly woman with a straw hat 17 seated in the centre of the roadway on 18 a lawn chair. One (1) youth, twelve 19 (12) to fourteen (14) also seated in 20 chair. 21 One (1) Michigan vehicle pulled up. 22 Persons in chair yelled to car; it left 23 the area. A white vehicle, London 24 resident, backed -- backed out and 25 left.


1 Constable Speck interviewed, was told 2 by the occupants that the older lady 3 stated that the road was Indian land, that 4 it was five dollars ($5) to enter. At 5 15:09 a grey van stopped at the entrance 6 and then proceeded. Constable Parks 7 approached the elderly lady on the roadway 8 to advise continuation of the Criminal 9 Code and she should get off the roadway. 10 The woman got up from the chair, walked 11 off the roadway; chair moved by a youth." 12 Q: Is it contravention of criminal code 13 -- contravention of criminal code? 14 A: It's the -- the issue of taking the 15 money is, yes. 16 Q: Yes. But I -- just reading the line 17 -- is the line "contravention of criminal code" -- 18 A: Oh, correct. 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: Correct, I'm sorry. 21 Q: And the problem is simply the taking 22 of the money, not... 23 A: Right. 24 Q: That was the contravention, okay? 25 A: Yes.


1 "At 15:20 a beige car flagged down by 2 John George, Constable Marks and Myers 3 approached George when he's leaning in 4 the passenger's window of the car 5 stopped on roadway. 6 At 15 -- I'm not sure if it's 15 -- 7 whatever, 15. 8 "John George was escorted to the 9 vehicle. Myers advised to assist 10 Parks. Process subject with recog. of 11 two (2) kilometre radius to prevent 12 further repetition of the offence." 13 Q: So the -- he was being released on 14 his own recognizance that he not be within two (2) 15 kilometres of this intersection? 16 A: That was the direction given to the 17 officers to take them back to the Detachment and release 18 them on those conditions, if they would agree with the 19 conditions. 20 Q: Okay. And that's probably 15:20. Is 21 that 15:25, do you think? 22 A: Might be. 23 Q: Because it's after 15:20. 24 A: Yes, that would make sense. 25 Q: And then the -- it continues at the


1 top of the next page. 2 "Detective Sergeant Wright arrives." 3 A: That's correct. At 15:29 Wright 4 arrives on scene. At 15:35 we requested a Sombra unit to 5 attend. It was one of the cars that had an in-camera 6 system. 7 Q: Yes. To -- wanted to take the 8 opportunity to video that. 9 "At 15:57, approximately eighteen (18) 10 people were milling about. Seven (7) 11 vehicles. No vehicles turning into the 12 roadway. At 16:15 spoke with Carl 13 George at the roadside. Carl advised 14 that those actions are the doing of the 15 people. I pointed out that they had 16 made their point, Carl went into the 17 explanation of the land issue and that 18 Ipperwash Park was south of County Road 19 3. Stated that the women and children 20 would be next." 21 Q: And what's that referring to? You're 22 -- who's speaking there when it said, "the women and 23 children would be next"? 24 A: I believe that he meant that they 25 would be taking the tolls next.


1 Q: Oh, they would be taking... 2 Then -- although the next note on this 3 page it -- it says July 18, page 124, was it written on 4 the back of a page, is -- at 17:40? 5 A: No, I just think it just filed out of 6 order here. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: It was filed out of order in my 9 binder. 10 "At 17:40, again, at County Road 3, 11 Matheson Drive, accompanied by Staff 12 Sergeant Mike Beacock. Parks came. 13 While at that location, vehicle stopped 14 on side of the road. Maynard George, 15 Scott Ewart, Glenn George. Spoke with 16 Maynard at length. Conveyed to him 17 that any persons stopping or -- or 18 stopping any vehicle on any road would 19 be considered to be a criminal offence 20 of mischief. 21 Persons would be arrested and charged. 22 Discussed the fact that land dispute is 23 civil and stopping traffic is criminal. 24 Maynard mentioned starting their own 25 security. I advised him that we would


1 not respond to his fax to the district 2 headquarters. 3 Any action by any person that was 4 enforcement in nature would be treated 5 as impersonation of a police officer. 6 That the OPP is responsible for all 7 policing in the area including CFB 8 Ipperwash. To initiate a department 9 would require negotiations of a 10 recognized band with the federal and 11 provincial government, and Stoney Point 12 is not recognized. Encouraged Maynard 13 and Glenn to avoid creating a 14 confrontation with the police. The 15 Township and park people are concerned. 16 Campers are visitors and complaints of 17 intimidation because visitors are not 18 aware of the problem. 19 Maynard asked what charges would be 20 laid. He was told mischief. He 21 advised he understood but appeared to 22 be bent to have their issue brought 23 into court." 24 Q: And do you have any other notes for 25 July 17th?


1 A: For July 17th? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: I believe that's it. 4 Q: Were you there when Mr. Clifford 5 George and I think two (2) others were arrested or one 6 (1) other person was arrested? 7 A: Yes, I was. 8 Q: And when -- when did that take place 9 in relation to 17:40? 10 A: The exact time, I don't know but it 11 was all fairly close. I -- I indicated the one (1) 12 individual that was escorted over to the cruiser. It was 13 all within maybe a half an hour of that point. 14 Q: So that would before 17 -- 5:40? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And the -- do you know what happened 17 with Mr. Clifford George and Mr. John George when they 18 were taken back to the Detachment? Did they agree to the 19 conditions that had been suggested? 20 A: It's my understanding they were 21 brought back to the Detachment and offered the conditions 22 of release in regards to a radius of not going back to 23 that area. 24 They refused to participate or to sign a 25 release and it was necessary to have them remanded in


1 custody because of the refusal to sign a recognisance. 2 Q: And the -- they were then taken to 3 Sarnia? Were there facilities in Forest for people to be 4 remanded in custody? 5 A: They would have been taken to the 6 Sarnia jail. 7 Q: Sarnia jail. And then at page 129 on 8 July 19th, 1993, there's -- you have a discussion with 9 Don Vale, the Lambton crown attorney? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And it's with respect to the charges 12 at Ipperwash, I take it referring to Ipperwash Provincial 13 Park? 14 A: Yes. The charges in relation to the 15 toll booth incident. 16 Q: And in front of you is a copy of 17 Exhibit 139. It's the -- there's some photographs, you 18 have colour photographs it's -- Commissioner, in that 19 little black book you've got at Tab 20 there's a black 20 and white photograph. 21 Does that -- do those photographs, and I 22 believe they were taken by Mr. Scott Ewart, I think that 23 was the evidence, show the intersection at Matheson Drive 24 and Army Camp Road? 25 A: Yes, that appears to be the location.


1 Q: And it appears in the second 2 photograph that someone's being escorted away by two (2) 3 police officers? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And do you know who that -- I can't 6 see it in the black and white one, you have the only 7 coloured one so. 8 A: I -- I can't identify who that person 9 is. 10 Q: Can you identify the officers? 11 A: Quite frankly, I can't. 12 Q: And -- so back to your notebook, you 13 had a discussion with -- can you tell us a little bit 14 more about your discussion with Mr. Vale? 15 A: "We discussed the charges in regards 16 to the -- the Ipperwash toll booth 17 incident. Vale suggested three (3) 18 parties would be released, to stay away 19 from the Park and Matheson Drive. 20 I urged him strenuously to consider the 21 Base as well. The Base is adjacent to 22 this road. They are illegally on the 23 Base and have been served notice. Vale 24 stated I would have to deal with the 25 Assistant Crown. Advised Vale this is


1 a very volatile issue with known 2 violent people. 3 Nothing to prevent congregations at the 4 fence." 5 Q: And what are you referring to there? 6 A: Well, I'm referring to the fact that 7 as you can see in the photographs that if you prohibit 8 the people charged from returning to the -- to the area, 9 they still could be right adjacent to this same location 10 just by being on the opposite side of the fence within 11 the Military Base. 12 Q: And, in effect, Matheson Drive -- on 13 the south side of Matheson Drive, is the Army Camp; on 14 the north side of Matheson Drive is the Park. And 15 there's a fence on either side separating Matheson Drive 16 on one (1) side from the Camp and the other side from the 17 Park? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And Matheson Drive goes east-west and 20 then curves around and runs north to the lake? 21 A: Correct. It -- it runs the perimeter 22 of the Provincial Park proper. 23 Q: And I note that at 14:30 you had a 24 call with Detective Sergeant Wright and you requested a 25 video from the Sombra car and I can't read the next line,


1 but you wanted a copy to supply to the Crown? 2 A: Yes, I requested a copy of the video 3 from the Sombra police car that had the in-car video 4 system so that a copy of the tape could be provided to 5 the Crown Attorney for the prosecution. 6 Q: And the -- that tape for this 7 particular incident, I believe inquiries were made to see 8 if it was still in existence and it could not be located; 9 is that correct? 10 A: I -- I don't know. 11 Q: Oh, you don't know? I think that 12 that's the fact that we tried to get the tape and we 13 could not locate it so, the next note is at 15:00; is 14 that correct? 15 A: Yes, it is. 16 Q: And you spoke to the Assistant Crown 17 Allison Shanks? 18 A: Shanks, correct. 19 Q: And... 20 A: "She agreed to release with 21 conditions that they stay away from 22 Ipperwash Park and stay away from 23 Matheson Drive. Did not wish to pursue 24 the issue regarding CFB Ipperwash. I 25 stressed the safety issues and that


1 without conditions I would expect 2 ongoing problems." 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: It continues: 5 "Allison Shanks advised she has an 6 agreement with Defence Lawyer Ron 7 George, will include some distance from 8 the intersection." 9 Q: Okay. And in your note with -- your 10 conversation with Mr. Vale, you're referring to -- 11 there's a reference to known violent people and who were 12 you referring to there? 13 A: Well, we were referring to some of 14 the people that were coming and going through the -- the 15 occupied area of the Base. 16 Q: Some of the people you had identified 17 through your -- 18 A: Some of the visitors, yes. 19 Q: Some of the visitors from other 20 places? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Not the people who were -- the -- not 23 the -- 24 A: Not -- not the three (3) that were 25 charged.


1 Q: Not the three (3) that were charged 2 and not the -- the -- the people who had originally 3 occupied the -- the Army Camp? 4 A: No. No, the issue there was if -- if 5 conditions were put on the individuals involved, that 6 they had conditions to not be within the Base as well, 7 that in all likelihood, it would prevent others from 8 doing the same later on because the -- the idea was, they 9 wouldn't want to find themselves with conditions imposed 10 to not go back to the Military Base as well. 11 Q: So, you were hoping -- what you 12 wanted -- as you say, you wanted them to discourage 13 people from setting up a toll booth again? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: But -- and the violent people that 16 you're referring to were people not from the area, but 17 from outside the area that you were concerned about? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Then, on July 20th, you had a call 20 from Sergeant Wright? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And he's -- he was at the Sarnia 23 court re: the bail hearing? 24 A: Yes, he was. 25 Q: And he advises that the draft release


1 includes a hundred (100) metres from Matheson Drive? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: I -- then, I can't read the next 4 line. 5 A: "I directed Wright that I would agree 6 to no less." 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: "Ron George making an issue, 9 reference Clifford George had a right 10 to be on the Base. It's a non-issue. 11 Will advise farther -- further." 12 Q: So that -- what's the reference to a 13 non-issue, that the request to stay off the Army -- Army 14 Camp wasn't going to be pressed? 15 A: Yeah, correct. The -- the conditions 16 of a release would not preclude that. 17 Q: And if I could take you to book 2, 18 one of the back -- black -- two (2) books at the front, 19 Tab 35. 20 And there's a -- an extract from the 21 London Free Press. It's Inquiry Document 1010495 and 22 it's dated July -- it's sometime in July 1993. It's 23 entitled "Toll Collectors held for bail hearing". 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the three (3) persons were


1 Clifford George, who was seventy-three (73) at the time, 2 Derek John George, thirty-two (32) and Martin Glen 3 Kewageshig, twenty-six (26), of Southampton and were they 4 -- that's referred to in the third -- fourth paragraph, 5 under "remand"? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And then you're quoted on the last 8 column, the last two (2) paragraphs... 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: "'People are concerned about being 11 charged', Inspector John Carson of the 12 OPP London District headquarters said. 13 'But legal issues surrounding that 14 behaviour are not clear. We are having 15 those legal issues researched.' He 16 would not elaborate." 17 Is that -- do you recall making that -- 18 those statements, Deputy Commissioner? 19 A: Quite frankly, I don't recall the 20 context of that. 21 Q: "Carson said he went to the area 22 Friday evening and Saturday morning and 23 personally told Maynard George there 24 would be arrests if attempts were made 25 to collect money on a Township road


1 where the public has an access right. 2 Carson said the men arrested later 3 co-operated with police." 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And in fact, you did do that. You 6 told Maynard that if people stopped the cars, they would 7 be arrested? 8 A: Yes, and they were very co-operative. 9 Q: And the three (3) individuals were 10 very co-operative? 11 A: Absolutely. 12 Q: Then at page -- at Tab 21 in the 13 black -- in the small black book, there's another -- it's 14 Exhibit P-224, which is Inquiry Document 1007627 and it's 15 a report from the Sarnia Observer on July 21, '93. 16 And it refers -- the headline is "Stoney 17 Point members promise halt of toll collection at 18 Ipperwash Park." 19 And the first lead paragraph says: 20 "Three (3) Stoney Point First Nation 21 members were released from custody 22 after they agreed Tuesday to cease 23 collecting tolls and blocking access to 24 Ipperwash Provincial Park and a nearby 25 road."


1 And that, in fact, was the condition that 2 was imposed, was that they cease collecting the tolls, 3 blocking access and, in fact, staying away from the 4 intersection? 5 A: That's essentially correct but the -- 6 the news article's inaccurate from the perspective that 7 they were not -- they were not preventing access to the 8 Provincial Park. They were only preventing access to the 9 Matheson Drive roadway. 10 Q: Just to -- oh, you're right. 11 A: Because Matheson Drive does not lead 12 into the Park itself. 13 Q: Okay. And then there's a reference 14 to Stoney Point: 15 "Chief Maynard George said Band Council 16 voted to cease toll collections Monday 17 because it wants to create a good 18 working relationship with Bosanquet 19 township which he noted controls the 20 drinking water supply. 'The move 21 should not be interpreted -- mistaken 22 for backing down on the ownership 23 question,' he said. Meanwhile, Defence 24 Minister Tom Siddon and Chief Tom 25 Bressette of the Kettle and Stony Point


1 Band are expected to meet within the 2 next few days to discuss the future of 3 Camp Ipperwash." 4 Were you aware of any meetings at the time 5 between Mr. Siddon and Chief Bressette? 6 A: I don't recall that specifically. 7 Q: And there's a note at page 132: 8 "July 20th, 1993 at 14:45, Captain 9 Dodsdon, Wednesday, Thursday-Friday --" 10 A: "McGuire returning to Kettle Point 11 re: negotiations." 12 Q: "Updated re: Maynard and suspects in 13 court." 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And then at the bottom of the page 16 you had a telephone conversation on July 21st with 17 Sergeant Wright and you discussed Bailiff Scott Ewart's 18 activities -- 19 A: Correct. And we'll review his 20 authority; the sheriff may investigate his -- 21 Q: And what was your concern with Mr. 22 Ewart? 23 A: Well, Mr. Ewart was serving notice as 24 a licensed bailiff which, if my memory serves me 25 correctly, was for the County of Middlesex.


1 And he had served a number of documents to 2 date and including or -- and he also presented himself on 3 Saturday at the toll booth incident as someone with 4 authority in regards to service. 5 And he continued to suggest that he had 6 authority to conduct that business in Lambton County 7 when, in fact, the authority appeared to be false. And 8 he continued to present himself as a licensed bailiff for 9 the Province of Ontario which in fact was not accurate. 10 And he -- he would not cease doing that. 11 And the concern was that he continued to give the 12 impression of validating documentation and processes that 13 he had no right, no authority particularly being involved 14 in. 15 Q: His -- his -- as a bailiff he was 16 licensed for Middlesex? 17 A: As I recall, yes. 18 Q: And did you and -- instruct Sergeant 19 Wright to make a complaint with respect to his behaviour? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: And if I could ask you look at Book 22 1, Tab 2, it's Inquiry Document 2002648. There's a 23 letter dated July 21, 1983 to Sheriff Ed Finlon, F-I-N-L- 24 O-N, Middlesex County and it's signed by Mark Wright, 25 Detective Sergeant; and it lists both Mr. Wright and you


1 as being -- 2 A: Which -- which book, sir? 3 Q: Oh, Book 1. It's a large book. It's 4 now underneath the -- see at the front? At Tab 2? 5 A: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 7 to make some of these documents exhibits? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: On this one, I'm going 9 to make after my -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Have you seen this document before? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And perhaps we would mark that 16 document the next exhibit? It would be 403. 17 THE REGISTRAR: 403, Your Honour. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 19 if some of the clippings you referred have been marked as 20 exhibits. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You're absolutely 22 right. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 24 one in the -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could


1 scratch 403 and the -- one clipping is already Exhibit P- 2 224. The other one of July 19th '93 from the London Free 3 Press, perhaps we could mark that one as 40 -- 4 THE REGISTRAR: 403. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Three (3), and then 6 the letter, 404. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-403: Document Number 1010495, 9 London Free Press Article, 10 "Camp Ipperwash-Toll 11 Collectors held for Bail 12 Hearing" 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-404: Document Number 2002648 July 17 21/93 letter to Sheriff Ed 18 Finlon, London Courthouse 19 from Detective Sergeant M.A. 20 Wright, number 5901 OPP 21 Petrolia Re: Complaint 22 against Mr. Scott Ewart, 23 Licensed Bailiff 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:


1 Q: What, if anything, happened as a 2 result of your complaint, do you know? 3 A: To tell you the truth, I'm not sure 4 what the outcome of that was. 5 Q: Were you aware that there was a 6 hearing? 7 A: No, I'm not. 8 Q: Then could I take you to page 135, 9 July 23rd, 1993? There's an entry, 19:05. 10 A: Yes? 11 Q: There's a telephone call, Sergeant 12 Bruce is it? 13 A: Sergeant Bruce, yes, Gord Bruce. 14 Q: "Advises that Maynard George called 15 and request OPP assistance to remove 16 trespassers from CFB Ipperwash." 17 A: Apparently, he had spoken to a 18 Justice of the Peace in Sarnia, Dorothy Birmingham. 19 Q: And what was your understanding as to 20 who the trespassers were at this point? 21 A: The Military. 22 Q: The Military? And at 19:10, you 23 called Maynard George? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: And can you tell us the...


1 A: "He advised that he had spoke to the 2 Sarnia JP, Dorothy Birmingham, this 3 afternoon and that she instructed him 4 to request -- request assistance to 5 remove the military and the cadets from 6 CFB Ipperwash. If no assistance 7 supplied, he will return to Sarnia 8 Court, on Monday, to lay a charge of 9 obstruction. I asked him, Do you have 10 a Court Order? No. Have you made any 11 request to the Military? No. 12 I advised him that the OPP would not 13 carry out his request without a valid 14 Court Order on any land that is in the 15 midst of a land claim dispute. If the 16 Court issued an order, we would have 17 our legal advisors review, we would 18 carry out only a legal Court Order. 19 I suggested this type of request should 20 be through a lawyer. 21 Maynard also advises there is a rumour 22 that Stoney Point has an agreement with 23 Kettle Point regarding the Base. He 24 wanted to advise that this is not the 25 case."


1 Q: All right. And then, on the next 2 page in Exhibit 188, there's A -- another note, and you 3 have that in your book? 4 A: Correct. It's a phone call at -- at 5 19:25 hours to Dorothy Birmingham in Sarnia. 6 Q: I'm not -- mine looks like at page 7 1 -- 8 A: Oh, I'm sorry. 9 Q: -- 38. 10 A: 138. 138 is the 1925... 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 136. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 136. 13 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: I'm having trouble with these 17 numbers. 18 A: Oh, yes. 19 Q: 136 and 137. 20 A: Right. They're pieces of paper that 21 were stuck in my binder. 22 Q: These -- were they notes made from 23 what you made your other notes or can you tell us what 24 they are? 25 A: They're just cheat notes I made at


1 the time. Right? 2 Q: Then you spoke to -- on July 23rd, at 3 19:25, to Dorothy Birmingham? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And what did... 6 A: "She advised that she did speak to 7 Maynard today and -- and possibly Glenn 8 George. She advised that she could not 9 issue any order to assist his issue 10 regarding the eviction of military from 11 the base. She advised that she would 12 be glad to discuss it further if 13 required. Maynard stated that he would 14 be in on Monday to discuss laying 15 obstruction charges." 16 Q: And then, at 20:10 you attended at 17 CFB Ipperwash? 18 A: Yes, I did. Captain Prentice was not 19 available, I spoke to a female corporal in the Military 20 Police office and just apprised her of Maynard's call. 21 Q: And then, you spoke to -- at 20:25, 22 Colonel MacDonald at Petawawa? 23 A: Yes, I called him and advised him of 24 the issues that were swirling at that point. 25 Q: And then the next day, July 24th, the


1 Saturday, I note at 9:15 you tried to contact Maynard 2 George? 3 A: Yes, and I was unable to locate him. 4 Q: And on July 26th, at page 140, you 5 spoke to JP Dorothy Birmingham again at 13:15 hours? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what happened there? 8 A: "I got a call from Dorothy 9 Birmingham. She advised that Maynard 10 attended her office requesting an 11 eviction notice. Did not ask for 12 charges to be laid. She explained that 13 she was unable to issue the type of 14 notice he was requesting, that would be 15 -- it would have to be issued by a 16 higher Court, and would not determine 17 any claim. He left the office stating 18 that he was going into Federal Court 19 regarding some order that had been 20 adjourned sine die." 21 Q: And then, on -- you updated 22 Superintendent Randall and on Tuesday, July 27th at 9:55 23 you had a meeting with Captor East -- Captain East? 24 A: Yes, I did, that was at 9:55 in the 25 morning, he attended my office:


1 "Advised that the Military considering 2 setting up checkpoints to monitor the 3 actual members -- numbers of people on 4 the base at any given time. Also asked 5 if OPP could supply personnel to assist 6 or accomplish the task. Advised him 7 that I was not prepared to support that 8 approach, as it could be considered an 9 overt action by the OPP, and we are 10 neutral in this issue. Any resources 11 would be a direct overtime commitment. 12 We need to remain neutral on this 13 issue." 14 Q: So he wanted -- the Military were 15 thinking of setting up checkpoints to control people 16 getting in, and wanted your assistance and the OPP said 17 no? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Was that request renewed, that -- 20 that you recall? 21 A: I'm -- I'm really not sure if it ever 22 was, but I don't recall it off hand. 23 Q: Okay. Then in August, turning to 24 page 144, August the 11th, 1995, the note at the top I 25 don't think relates to Ipperwash. The note at the


1 bottom, August 13th, is it 15th, I guess, at 1545: 2 "Had a discussion with Chief 3 Superintendent Coals." 4 A: Yes, that's Friday the 13th, I 5 believe. Yes. 6 "Phone call to Coals regarding 7 Ipperwash. Business as usual. Attend 8 Forrest, with Chief Superintendent to 9 visit the members." 10 Basically just acknowledging their 11 tolerance around this issue. 12 Q: Okay. And page 145, August 16th, 13 1993, at 9:30, Captain East attended your office with 14 respect to some issues at the base? 15 A: Yes, he attended my office to advise 16 of an altercation they had had: 17 "Apparently Captain Prentice, Sergeant 18 Major Taylor, and other Military 19 Police, were moving property from a 20 range building when confronted by 21 natives. An individual named Kevin, 22 several others. A pickup was parked in 23 front of the military vehicle. Another 24 vehicle pushed the military vehicle 25 into the pickup truck. A verbal


1 confrontation ensued. I was paged by 2 Acting Staff Sergeant Peacock, returned 3 the call, Peacock related the same 4 incident. Advise him to assign an 5 investigator, possibly a charge of 6 dangerous driving in order, depending 7 on ID, et cetera." 8 Q: Do you recall if Captain East -- 9 we've heard some evidence, Kevin Simon, this is the 10 incident involving Kevin Simon, I believe, where he was 11 living in that -- in the building and the -- it was his 12 material that was being removed by the Military. 13 Did Captain East tell you that? 14 A: I don't -- I don't recall if he told 15 me what the property was. But I believe I knew that it 16 was personal property. 17 Q: Oh, you -- you knew that? 18 A: I'm pretty -- that seems to ring 19 true, yes. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: That seems to ring true. 22 Q: And what, if anything, did the OPP do 23 with respect to that incident? Did it lay charges 24 against anyone, do you recall? 25 A: I couldn't tell you, sir.


1 Q: And then there's a note at page 147, 2 it's a telephone message, I take it for you, that whoever 3 made -- made the call, alleged that: 4 "Natives have set fire to buildings at 5 Camp Ipperwash, George Stack and Shawn 6 Johnson have gone to scene." 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And that was the building in which 9 the -- did you understand that to be the building in 10 which the material had been removed by the Military on 11 August 16th? 12 A: That's my understanding, yes. 13 Q: And were you aware that the occupiers 14 believed that the Military started the fire in the 15 building? 16 A: I was aware of that rumour, yes. 17 Q: Okay. And did -- was -- did the OPP 18 carry out an investigation with respect to that fire? 19 A: There would have been an 20 investigation, yes. 21 Q: Do you -- do you recall today, what 22 was the result of the investigation? 23 A: I don't believe there was any 24 conclusion to it. 25 Q: Okay. Thank you. Then on -- at page


1 149, August the 17th, '93, this note is virtually 2 impossible for me to read. It's probably better in your 3 original. 4 A: Yes. 5 "I received phone call at 7:45 in the 6 morning from Staff Sergeant Beacock. 7 He advises that Constable Speck 8 received most of the interviews, no 9 information to support charges. Lack 10 of ID at this time. Discussed the need 11 to attempt to ID drivers and lay 12 charges to prevent further ongoing 13 problems. Beacock agreed, but 14 frustrated. Unable to secure necessary 15 -- necessary ID from military 16 personnel, also advises the natives 17 attended the Base and requested return 18 of property from the range shack. 19 Prentice -- Captain Prentice refused to 20 return the same, pending the arson 21 investigation. Pointed out to Staff 22 Sergeant Beacock that seizure by the -- 23 by the Military, not the police, was 24 not required for the police 25 investigation."


1 Q: So, what are you saying? What did 2 you intend to -- what were you -- what does that mean? 3 A: Well, I was -- I was pointing out to 4 him, and he clearly didn't have any issue with the fact 5 that the seizure of the property had nothing to do with 6 the arson investigation, and that the Military -- for 7 them to use the excuse that they were holding the 8 property because of the arson investigation was 9 inaccurate. 10 Q: So, you felt that the Military should 11 have returned the stuff and should not have used it -- 12 used the investigation as an excuse for holding it? 13 A: Yes, I -- I could see no reason why 14 there would be a continuation of the seizure. 15 Q: Okay. And then, at the next page, 16 page 150, you had a conversation, I guess that on the 17 same day that Tom -- Chief Tom Bressette? 18 A: Yes, that as at 2:50 in the afternoon 19 regarding the Ipperwash... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: I can't read it, so... 24 A: "Superintendent Ormsby received a 25 call from Colonel Miller. Natives


1 considering to burn cottages at 2 Ipperwash. Tom advised the 3 information is a rumour, but he was 4 told that Stoney Point Warriors will 5 burn cottages, possible on Outer Drive. 6 Made comment of [I believe it's] 7 activist. Felt we should be aware. 8 Unable to confirm the information." 9 Q: And what, if anything, did you do as 10 a result of this information? 11 A: I had some discussion with some of 12 the command staff and, in particular, Inspector McKenna, 13 at Number 1 District Headquarters, Chatham, and as a 14 result of our deliberations, we decided to assign some 15 additional patrols to the area. 16 Q: And at the next page, on page 151, 17 you had a discussion with Sergeant Bell? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And that's with -- was that from him 20 or to -- I take it, it's from him? 21 A: It's from Bell and he's advising the 22 information he has regarding the potential of burning of 23 a bar known as, "Jake's." 24 Q: And Forest was going -- Detachment 25 was being advised by Constable --


1 A: Constable Gruschovnik. 2 Q: And to consider discussing with the 3 owner? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And the additional patrols that you 6 put out, were they marked police cars or unmarked police 7 cars? 8 A: They were unmarked police cars with 9 two (2) officers in civilian dress. 10 Q: Now, at page 153 we're back to the 11 Military on August 18th, 1993 at four o'clock and there 12 is a -- I take it a meeting in your office with 13 Lieutenant Colonel Mark Skidmore, Captain Bernie Durell 14 (sic) -- I -- I keep -- I have a block on his name. 15 A: I think it's "Derubie." 16 Q: Derubie? And Captain Vance? 17 A: Yes, I'm just trying to find the 18 original here. Yes, correct. 19 Q: And it was at your office? 20 A: It was, yes. 21 Q: Can you tell us what the note says 22 and what you recall about the meeting? 23 A: "We discussed the operations 24 regarding CFB Ipperwash, the fire and 25 the driving altercations that were


1 going on. Raised concern regarding the 2 I.D. of the Natives, need for Military 3 to arrest if required. Evidence, must 4 identify the drivers. We will charge 5 if evidence is available. Location of 6 the Intelligence Centre, Captain 7 Berubie suggests relocation to CFB 8 London. Question, FIRA mission if -- 9 if Ops. plan to evict in near future. 10 Captain Vance will consider further 11 info. regarding the operations plan and 12 -- and coordination, et cetera". 13 Q: So, were -- were the OPP being asked 14 to do anything at this point in time? 15 A: No, actually I -- I was asking them to 16 do more in regards to these altercations that were taking 17 place. 18 It was almost like a cat and mouse game 19 going on with vehicles out in the range, and then of 20 course there was the incident that I eluded to here 21 earlier where they had driven into one (1) vehicle where 22 the Military were involved, but they were backing away 23 and not arresting the individuals who were responsible. 24 And I was trying to point out to them that 25 it was necessary for them where there were serious


1 occurrences, that if there -- if it was appropriate that 2 they would arrest so that we could continue the arrest 3 and we would be able to identify the individuals. 4 They were, for lack of a better term, 5 annoyed that we weren't doing enough, but yet they 6 weren't doing enough to help us collect the appropriate 7 evidence we needed to prefer the charges. 8 Q: So, at -- from your perspective there 9 was a problem identification, the Military simply 10 complained to the OPP, but didn't identify who they were 11 complaining about? 12 A: Well, they -- they -- they couldn't 13 identify the individuals responsible after the fact, and 14 they weren't taking action at the time, which they 15 clearly had the authority to do. 16 Q: And the reference to the location of 17 the JIC, is that the Joint Intelligence Centre; what's 18 that refer to? 19 A: It's -- it was the room that the 20 Military would use for their intelligence team. 21 Q: And -- oh, I understand. So it -- 22 where was it -- did -- what was your understanding of 23 where it was located back in 1993 on August 18? 24 A: It was -- it was located in a -- in a 25 boardroom office in -- in our district headquarters


1 building in London. 2 Q: In you're dist -- was this JFO? 3 A: No, no. It was military personnel 4 using some office space in the basement. 5 Q: Of your building? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Leased from the OPP? 8 A: They didn't pay anything for it. 9 Q: They didn't pay. But why were they in 10 your building? 11 A: It was just space. They required a -- 12 an office and we had a boardroom and they were allowed to 13 use that boardroom as space in -- in the general area. 14 Q: And -- and did it have anything to do 15 with Ipperwash, or they were just using that generally? 16 A: No, it was specific to Ipperwash. 17 Q: Specific to Ipperwash, and they were 18 going to move it to London? 19 A: There -- there was discussion moving 20 it to CFB London if they could find space there. 21 Q: And FLIR, FLIR is -- F-L-I-R is 22 Forward Looking Infrared -- 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: -- Technology? 25 A: It's -- it's camera technology, yes.


1 Q: It's camera technology? 2 A: Correct. It operates on the -- the 3 heat sense. 4 Q: So that -- and the question FLIR 5 Mission if Ops. plan to evict in near future; who asked 6 that question? 7 A: I'm -- I'm -- would suspect I raised 8 that question. At this point in time, you -- you asked 9 me earlier about the flyovers, and -- and that's what 10 this was referring to. 11 At this point in time, I was aware they 12 had conducted flyovers, by -- by this date. 13 Q: You knew by this time in August they 14 had conducted them? 15 A: Yes, there had been at least a -- a 16 few different occasions that I was aware of. 17 Q: And they had done it with helicopters? 18 A: Yes, military equipment. 19 Q: And had you observed any of those 20 helicopters, sir? 21 A: Had I actually seen them? 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you understand at what height they 25 were flying those helicopters; did you have any


1 information at all -- 2 A: No, I wasn't provided with the details 3 of how they conducted them. 4 Q: And at this point had you received any 5 complaints from the occupiers about the helicopter 6 flights, that you recall? 7 A: I don't recall any complaints. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps this would be a 9 good time for the afternoon break. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, thanks. 11 Thank you very much, we'll have a break. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 13 for fifteen (15) minutes. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 3:20 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 3:39 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed, please be seated. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Deputy Commissioner, we've heard some 25 evidence with respect to a helicopter incident on the


1 evening of August the 23rd, 1993. And I understand you 2 were involved in the helicopter incident, investigating 3 the helicopter incident? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And your notes with respect to the 6 helicopter incident start on page 156, at page 156, 7 August 23rd, at 23:00 hours? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And you were advised by Staff 10 Sergeant Beacock, that: 11 "Constable Feeny and Potts had been in 12 a plain car near CFB Ipperwash, 13 observed in military type helicopter, 14 believed to be a --" 15 A: Huey. 16 Q: -- Huey. Heard what they believed to 17 be rifle fire from the range area." 18 That's what you were advised by Staff 19 Sergeant Beacock? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And where Constables Feeny and Potts, 22 why were they on Highway 21 at this -- on the evening of 23 August the 23rd? 24 A: That goes back to the discussion 25 earlier in regards to various concerns in the general


1 area where they were assigned, a plain clothes detail 2 with an unmarked vehicle, and they were to observe for 3 any suspicious activity, in and around the Ipperwash 4 area. Not specific to the occupied area of the Base, but 5 in the Ipperwash area generally. 6 Q: So they just -- it was just 7 happenstance that they were there at this point in time? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And the -- you advise Staff Sergeant 10 Beacock to confirm with who, Inspector McKenna? 11 A: Inspector McKenna from Chatham 12 District Headquarters. 13 Q: And to do what? 14 A: We would bring the personnel 15 necessary to attend at the Base and identify the people 16 in the Base as soon as possible. 17 Q: And at this point in time did you 18 have any other -- any information other than the two (2) 19 constables thought they heard a shot had been fired? 20 A: It was shortly after that, 21 approximately midnight, I received a call from Captain 22 East to advise he was on the military helicopter -- he 23 was on board the military helicopter and it took a bullet 24 in the tail section. 25 Q: Now, Captain East, was he with the


1 Military Police? 2 A: No, he was intelligence. 3 Q: Intelligence? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And... 6 A: The aircraft was at the London 7 Airport: 8 "Advise I have people -- personnel 9 dispatched to -- to Ipperwash. I will 10 dispatch an identification unit to -- 11 to the helicopter itself. Request 12 military approval for Military Police 13 to be assigned if required, under the 14 command of Staff Sergeant Beacock, and 15 Major Howell was to be contacted." 16 Q: Okay. And what did you personally do 17 with respect to attending at the Ipperwash area? 18 A: I went directly to the area myself. 19 Q: And when you got to the area, the -- 20 I note on page 157 at 140 -- I mean 12:40 on August the 21 24th, there's a 10-8 to Forest Detachment, 10-8 means a 22 travelling to Forest Detachment? 23 A: I was en route, yes. 24 Q: And then once you got to Forest 25 Detachment, can you just outline what you did?


1 A: Yes. 2 "I arrived -- I arrived there at 3 approximately 1:20 hours. Fourteen 4 (14) members were at Forest including 5 myself, two (2) First Nations officers. 6 Directed to secure the Base as a crime 7 scene. Vehicles would be allowed to 8 leave only with a consent search and 9 proper identification. Refusal to 10 cooperate would be considered 11 obstruction and arrest if necessary. 12 Members to be assigned to two (2) -- 13 two (2) man units to secure all exits 14 to the Base." 15 Q: Yes? Then what did you do? 16 A: "I was accompanied by Staff Sergeant 17 Beacock and Sergeant McDonald and I 18 proceeded to Bob George's residence." 19 Q: And that's on... 20 A: On Kettle Point. 21 Q: Kettle Point? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And what did you do when you got to 24 Bob George's residence? That's Robert George, Sr.? 25 A: Yes, it is.


1 Q: And his nickname is, "Nobby." 2 A: One and the same. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: "I requested assistance from Bob to 5 communicate to the occupiers that we 6 will be securing the Base pending a 7 search. Bob felt that Carl George was 8 at the Base and he would be able to 9 assist." 10 Q: So, what did you then do? 11 A: "I proceeded to the Base. At 12 approximately 2:30 I was at the north gate 13 on Highway 21." 14 Q: And when you say, "the north gate on 15 Highway 21," perhaps I'll just... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: I'm putting up on the screen a copy 20 of Exhibit P-40. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And perhaps you could point out -- 25 there should be a laser pen -- Okay. Point out, Deputy


1 Commissioner, when you refer to the north gate, where 2 approximately you're referring to on the map? 3 A: It would have been in this general 4 area here. 5 Q: And that is just to the west of the 6 creek and the road that runs up towards the grenade 7 range, is that correct? 8 A: Yes, it could have, in fact, been 9 right -- right there, but it's hard to tell. There's -- 10 there's a couple of entrances up there. There was one 11 (1) that was open and there was a number of people at it. 12 There was one (1) of our -- one (1) or two (2) of our 13 patrol vehicles were already on the scene when I arrived. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: So -- but it was at -- at -- 16 Q: In that area there? 17 A: This general area. 18 Q: And that's near where the -- to the 19 east of where the building was constructed on the Base? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And so you arrived at the gate and 22 what did you do? 23 A: "There was a four (4) wheel drive 24 vehicle and several male Native youths 25 there, initially demanded to know what


1 we wanted. I explained we were looking 2 for Carl and we were investigating a 3 shooting; requested the vehicle be 4 moved peacefully or it would be removed 5 for obstruction by a tow truck. We 6 check the Camp at the north end at that 7 point in time. I drove -- I drove into 8 the Base; Carl wasn't located. A short 9 time thereafter, Carl was stopped at 10 the Camp entrance with Highway 21." 11 What I noted here is Camp B, which I 12 believe is farther down Highway 21 towards the built-up 13 area. 14 Q: Farther west, yes? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: There, I "met with Carl George, 17 explained the situation that the vehicles 18 would be checked if they wished to leave 19 or be considered obstruction of the police 20 investigation." 21 Q: And so, did you have any concerns, 22 personally, about going onto the Army Camp? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: And you were aware that the occupiers 25 were hunters and had access to weapons?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And you -- is it fair to say, you did 3 not believe that anyone would use a weapon against a 4 police officer? 5 A: That's fair, yes. 6 Q: And that was what you believed on the 7 evening of August 23rd in the morning, at twenty (20) -- 8 I mean in the morning at twenty (20) -- August 24th when 9 you went on to the -- on to the Base? 10 A: I expected to get a fair bit of 11 noise, chatter if you would, maybe called the odd name or 12 two (2), but I didn't expect anyone to turn a weapon on 13 me. 14 Q: And so as a result of your -- after 15 your discussion with Mr. -- Chief -- with Carl George, 16 what, if anything, did Carl George say to you? 17 A: I didn't make any particular note of 18 what he said but it was -- it was clear that he 19 understood what we had to do and he was going do his part 20 to communicate to the occupiers of what the police would 21 be doing in the -- in the hours ahead. 22 Q: And you told -- one (1) of the things 23 you told him was that you -- there was going to be a 24 search of the Camp? 25 A: Yes, I would have told that they --


1 we were in the process of seeking a search warrant. 2 Q: Okay. Then what did you do? 3 A: "At three o'clock I went to the 4 Military Base itself, the built-up area. 5 Spoke with Captain -- [it looks like] Don 6 Leslie. Updated him regards to the 7 incident and the criminal investigation, 8 and also spoke to one (1) of the Military 9 Police." 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Then I went down to: 12 "The Ipperwash Provincial Park, spoke 13 with two (2) of the wardens. Advised 14 that -- that Les Kobayashi wanted the 15 wardens to remain at the gatehouse. 16 There was no threat to the Park staff 17 or campers perceived in any way" 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: "Constable Gagne was patrolling 20 County Road 3 at that point in time. Then 21 I returned back at 3:45 to the Forest 22 Detachment." 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: 'At four o'clock, I made some phone 25 calls. Requested Sergeant Babbit to


1 attend Forest." 2 He's a media relations officer. 3 " Had the TRU team attend at Forest. 4 They were dispatched to Pinery Park, 5 put in the bunk house on standby." 6 Q: And why did you ask for the TRU team? 7 A: Because of the nature of the incident 8 where there had been a shooting take place. I just 9 wanted the resource close by. 10 Q: And is that standard procedure? 11 A: Should be, yes. 12 Q: Yes? Then what did you do? 13 A: "At 4:35 I made a phone call to 14 Superintendent Wall; discussed notifying 15 the criminal investigations branch out of 16 general headquarters for -- to lead the 17 investigation. 18 Inspector Turner was going to be 19 assigned as the incident commander to 20 complete the search later on at day 21 break; made phone calls to Inspector 22 Turner requesting he attend and relieve 23 myself so that he could continue on as 24 Incident Commander." 25 Request COM Centre dispatch some ERT


1 personnel and requested that Staff 2 Sergeant Lacroix attend at Forest to 3 relieve Staff Sergeant Beacock. 4 Made a phone call as received from our 5 criminal investigations branch, from 6 Detective Inspector Edgar who advised 7 that Inspector Hall would be the 8 investigator arriving approximately 9 eight o'clock in the morning." 10 Q: And you then went off duty at about 11 8:45 in the morning? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And the search was conducted under 14 the -- by -- under the direction of Inspector Turner, as 15 you've indicated? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And you returned to duty at two 18 o'clock; is that correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And what did you do after two 21 o'clock? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: You first went to the Forest


1 Detachment? 2 A: "Yes, I returned to the Detachment 3 and met Inspector Turner who had returned 4 there and was provided an update as how 5 the search was progressing. 6 There was some personnel requested with 7 metal detectors. We had the OPP 8 helicopter in the area and the 9 Detective Inspector was on scene 10 commencing the investigation. Mayor 11 Thomas from Bosanquet and his clerk Ken 12 Williams from Bosanquet attended the 13 Detachment, apprised them of the 14 investigation. 15 At 3:30 in the afternoon Lieutenant 16 Colonel Skidmore was updated. Also at 17 15:45 Major Fair -- Fairall, the Provo 18 Marshall was updated and recommended to 19 him that the FLIR missions cease and I 20 raised a concern about retaliation 21 being possible." 22 Q: So, you recommended that the FLIR -- 23 the helicopter flights were using the FLIR technology at 24 the Base and you had recommended that they stop doing the 25 helicopter --


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: -- flights? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And did they -- are you aware whether 5 or not the Military stopped the... 6 A: I believe that was the end of it. 7 Q: That was the end of it? 8 A: To my knowledge. 9 Q: And then, at page 163 there's an 10 entry at 16:07 and it indicates that I think you and 11 Inspector Turner went up in the OPP helicopter? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And photos and videos were taken by 14 Constable Evans? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And I just wanted to show you a 17 couple of these photographs because they show the 18 different parts of the Base. And the shot we're looking 19 at, which is photograph 302 shows a camp that is located 20 on the road -- just north of the road on the inside of 21 the Army Camp running parallel with Highway 21; is that 22 your recollection? 23 A: That's fair, yes. 24 Q: And then, this is a different shot, 25 it shows actually, the -- Highway 21 in the upper right-


1 hand side; it's photo 303 -- the road on the inside and 2 the building that can be seen on the right-hand side, the 3 white building with the silver top, that building's still 4 there today? 5 A: I believe so, yes. 6 Q: And the -- in the -- behind the 7 building just to the east of the building, there's a 8 large field that runs south to north and that's, I 9 understand, one (1) of the rifle ranges? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And the picture, 304, is a picture of 12 a camp that's located on the rifle range that runs north 13 from -- from the access road on the -- that runs parallel 14 to Highway 21? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And these photos were all taken while 17 you were up in the helicopter? 18 A: I can't guarantee that, it could have 19 been done some time in the day other than when I was 20 actually present, but it was certainly -- 21 Q: But you recognize these scenes? 22 A: Oh, yes. 23 Q: Okay. And this is another photo, 24 305, again of the camp that's located on the rifle range? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And 306 is another photo of the same 2 camp? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And the road is running on the west 5 side of the rifle range; it runs from the access road 6 north from -- on the west side of the -- the field with 7 the rifle range there; do you agree with that? 8 A: I believe that's the... 9 Q: North is at the bottom and south is 10 at the top. 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And again, 307 shows the rifle range, 13 the building that's at the intersection of the -- of the 14 road on the inside of the Camp and Highway 21 and I see 15 that there appears to be an entrance road -- 16 A: This was a gate entrance, I believe. 17 Q: That was a gate -- one (1) of the 18 gate entrances? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And that's photo 307? 308 simply 21 shows the area to the west of the building, towards the 22 built-up area; is that correct? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: 309 is another shot of the same area? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: 3010, 30 -- 311 shows the same basic 2 area running -- showing a shot almost directly east along 3 the roadway on the inside of the Army Camp? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And there's trees all along that area 6 where we see it on the right, is that not correct? 7 A: It's very heavily wooded, Yes. 8 Q: And here's another shot, 312, of the 9 rifle range, and it shows the camp we looked at earlier, 10 and the top of the rifle range, which is at the north end 11 of -- that's -- the top is the north, and you can see the 12 forests that were there, back in 1993 and are still 13 there? 14 A: Yeah, that's -- in -- that's the earth 15 berms for the firing range. 16 Q: The berms for the firing range are 17 located at the top of the picture-- 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: -- on the North end. 20 And that's a similar shot of the rifle 21 range and the road? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: That was 313. 314 is one of the -- 24 the camps, just on the south side of the wooded area, 25 just to the west of the building that we -- that's at the


1 end of the rifle range? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And you can see it there in relation 4 in -- 315 in relation to the rifle range? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And this is simply another camp that's 7 along the road? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that was picture 316, picture 317 10 shows a camp in the lake areas at the north end of the 11 camp is -- the Army Camp, is that correct? 12 A: Correct, and just -- just for 13 clarification in regards to your question about the 14 photos, my notes indicate that the fly -- fly the Base 15 area, photo and video by Constable Evans so, it would 16 have -- 17 Q: That's what I -- yeah, I have -- 18 A: -- it would have been done during my 19 presence on the helicopter. 20 Q: That's what I thought. I -- I must 21 have been probably going too quickly because I made a 22 note of that when... 23 Then 318 is another shot of the Camp, up 24 by the inland lakes in the northern end of the Army Camp? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: 320 is -- I mean 319 is a shot of what 2 is known as the quarry, is that correct? It's on the -- 3 on the East side of the Army Camp, as I understand it, 4 because Highway 21 is at the top and the -- the interior 5 road is there? 6 A: Oh, okay -- 7 Q: I don't know if that's a quarry, but-- 8 A: I'm not sure if -- I -- I'm not sure 9 I've ever heard it referred to as the quarry, but -- but 10 I think you're accurate in regards to its relationship 11 Highway 21 nearby there. 12 Q: It's near -- 13 A: 21 runs across the upper part of the 14 picture here. 15 Q: And Outer Drive is on the East -- on 16 the left-hand side of this picture? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: It's another -- 320 is just another 19 shot of the same camp? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: 321 is another shot of the same camp. 22 322 is a -- not certain where that camp is; do you know 23 where that camp is? 24 A: Not for certain. 25 Q: 323 and -- now, what did you do after


1 the -- yeah, what I would suggest we do, we'll have to 2 create this CD-ROM of these pictures, but if we could 3 reserve a number. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-405, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-405: Search Warrant Camp Ipperwash 7 1993 photos taken by 8 Constable Evans, OPP from 9 helicopter, photos 0302 to 10 0324 CD ROM 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: We'll create a -- a photo exhibit. 14 Now, as a result -- were any charges ever 15 laid as a result of your -- of the investigation? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: And if I could take you to page 171, 18 August 28, 1993, 19:30. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yes? 23 Q: And the -- you had a discussion with 24 Detective Superintendent Wall, and there's a note: 25 "Discuss concerns re: release of


1 information as per Military request." 2 What is this about? Does that have 3 anything to do with Ipperwash? 4 A: I'm certain is does, but I'm not sure 5 what the discussion was about here. I'm just trying to 6 go back in my notes to see if there's other commentary 7 here that leads me to know which piece of information it 8 refers to. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I'm not certain what that refers to, 13 sir. 14 Q: Okay. Now, in the fall of 1993 -- 15 before I leave the -- August, there was a -- did you seek 16 the assistance of the Kettle and Stony Point Police with 17 respect to the helicopter incident? 18 A: The investigation itself was 19 conducted by a Criminal Investigations Branch under the 20 direction of Detective Inspector Terry Hall, so the steps 21 in regards to how they proceed that investigation would 22 have been under his direct control. 23 Q: The -- what I'm referring to, Mr. 24 Miles Bressette, when he testified, said that you had 25 called him, he thought, between 1:00 and 1:30 in the


1 morning of August the 24th with respect to the helicopter 2 incident, and asked if he would -- if we would go down to 3 assist to help identify various individuals? Do you 4 recall that? 5 A: I don't recall that, but I very well 6 may have. I know that somewhere in my notes here I refer 7 to at 1:20 that there were -- there were two (2) First 8 Nations officers at the Detachment. 9 Q: And Miles Bressette indicated that he 10 advised you that he would have to contact the Chief of 11 the Kettle and Stony Point to find out what his position 12 was. 13 He indicated he had contacted Chief 14 Bressette who indicated that -- indicated to him, later 15 on, that he spoke to you about Kettle Point -- Kettle 16 Point getting involved and that he then called -- Chief 17 Bressette called back and advised Mr. Bressette that 18 Kettle Point police would not be involved in the 19 situation. 20 Do you recall speaking to Chief Bressette 21 or Miles Bressette about this issue? 22 A: I don't -- I don't recall it offhand 23 and I don't see any note to that point, but that very -- 24 that very well could have taken place. 25 Q: It might very well have happened and


1 just -- you just simply didn't make a note and -- 2 A: Well, it -- it certainly is 3 consistent with -- with -- with their concern about the - 4 - the First Nations officers assisting in any way there. 5 Q: The -- the Kettle and Stony Point -- 6 it was your understanding that the Chief and Council at 7 Kettle and Stony Point did not want their Kettle and 8 Stony Point police officers assisting the OPP with 9 respect to the Army Camp? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And if I could take you to Book 1, 12 Tab 3. It's the one -- it should be right in front of 13 you and it's a letter dated August 24th, 1983, Inquiry 14 Document 2002494. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And is this -- it's addressed to the 19 Commissioner, the OPP in Toronto, and is that your 20 signature on this letter, sir? 21 A: Yes, it is. 22 Q: And did you send that letter to the 23 Commissioner? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: And it's simply reporting on what


1 happened on August 23rd and on August 24th? 2 A: Correct. This is a -- basically 3 providing a brief of the circumstances that would be 4 provided to the Commissioner upon his arrival and -- at 5 headquarters, first thing the next morning. 6 Q: First thing the morning of the 24th? 7 A: Correct. It indicates on here that I 8 was the Incident Commander until 7:00 in the morning, and 9 we had requested Inspector Turner, so I don't have the -- 10 the fax attachment to this, but I -- I would suspect it 11 would have been forwarded through the night. 12 Q: Oh, so this would have gone out first 13 thing in the morning? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: Okay. And we'll mark that the next 16 exhibit. It would be 40 -- 17 THE REGISTRAR: 406. P-406, your Honour. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-406. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-406: Document Number 2002494 Aug. 21 24/93 Letter to the 22 Commissioner OPP.-Toronto, 23 from J.F.Carson, Inspector 24 OPP Forest Re: CFB 25 Ipperwash/Stoney Point.


1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Then if I could take you to Book 2, 4 Tab 40. It's the other black book, the one that's... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And this is a briefing note issued by 10 the Ontario Provincial Police on September 24th, 1993? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And have you seen that before, sir? 13 A: I don't believe I had a copy of that 14 one. 15 Q: But it's a typical briefing note? 16 A: It is. 17 Q: And it's Inquiry Document 2000990, 18 and it's sim -- it -- simply -- it reports on the 19 investigation and the incident with respect to the 20 helicopter? 21 A: Yes, it seems like it's simply an 22 update of an existing briefing note. 23 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could mark that 24 as the next exhibit? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-407, your Honour.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-407. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-407: Document Number 2000990 4 Sept.24/93. MSGCS Briefing 5 Note, Issue: native 6 demonstration Camp Ipperwash. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Then in the fall of -- November 10 18th, could I take you to November 18th, for a minute? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: It's Tab -- excuse me. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: You attended in -- oh, excuse me. 19 I'm in the wrong -- can you just briefly tell us what 20 happened, the balance of August -- from August to the end 21 of the year, in 1983? 22 A: For -- 23 Q: Were there any notable -- anything of 24 note, I know there are lots of notes there, but I don't 25 want to go through them.


1 A: For the lack of a better term it was 2 pretty quiet through the balance of that calendar year. 3 Q: Then at -- in the small black book 4 there's a -- at Tab 22, there's a copy of Exhibit P-191, 5 it's a letter dated January 18th, 1994 from -- 6 A: I'm sorry, sir. The tab number? 7 Q: Tab number 22. In that little -- 8 It's actually in the small black -- yeah that book, 9 you've got it? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And this is a letter from Sergeant 12 McDonald and a copy is shown to you? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And this is a -- one (1) of the -- 15 A: It's a typical status update. 16 Q: Status update? And I note that 17 Sergeant McDonald indicates that there's been very little 18 activity at CFB Ipperwash since the last update, which 19 was in December, December 17th of '93. 20 And the paragraph -- the 4th paragraph 21 indicates that gunshots are still heard on occasion 22 because it's believed that people are still hunting at 23 the Army Camp? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And you were aware that people hunted


1 at the at the Army Camp? 2 A: It's no surprise. 3 Q: And the -- it's reported that Carl 4 George has been designated by the Stoney Point Council as 5 Chief and their spokesman. 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And that Maynard George appears to 8 have fallen out of grace with the Council -- Stoney Point 9 Council? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And Sergeant McDonald reports on the 12 page -- the second page, "the Stony Point Council feel 13 now that matters are progressing slowly" -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- "they -- they feel that the 16 Military has been unable to research 17 any justification for continuing. 18 They'll hold onto this property, and 19 that eventually the matter will end up 20 before the courts." 21 Was that your understanding as well, that 22 the occupiers were concerned about how slowly matters 23 were proceeding? 24 A: I think that's a general reflection 25 of the feelings.


1 Q: And was that a feeling that you 2 understood was at Kettle and Stony Point -- Kettle Point 3 as well? 4 A: Yes. But I think the -- the progress 5 there was -- I believe was there was some frustration, 6 but I think from the perspective that negotiations were 7 not progressing with the Band Council -- with the 8 recognized Band. 9 But the reference here is the Stoney 10 Pointers who are occupying the Base were not happy with 11 the progress. 12 Q: And then if I could take you to Book 13 1, Tab 4, it's Inquiry Document 2000716. I think I may 14 have sent you on a -- excuse me for a minute. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Perhaps I'll just show you a copy of 19 a letter dated May 2nd, 1994 from the Superintendent -- 20 to the Superintendent from I believe the Staff Sergeant 21 Wright, and it's Inquiry Document 2000716. 22 And do you recall -- did you get a copy of 23 this letter? 24 A: I would have, yes. 25 Q: And this is simply a letter with


1 respect -- from Sergeant Wright with respect to the 2 operational plan with respect to Camp Ipperwash? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And there was a concern that a large 5 gathering might take place on May 6th, 7th, and 8th? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And this simply was planning for 8 that? 9 A: That's what it is, yes. 10 Q: And was there any problem that you 11 can recall or anything out of the ordinary on May 6th, 12 7th and 8th? 13 A: I don't recall any issues from 14 memory. 15 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 16 exhibit? 17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-408, Your 18 Honour. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 408. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-408: Document Number 2000716, May 22 02/94 letter to the 23 Superintendent OPP Chatham 24 from Detective Sergeant M.A. 25 Wright, OPP. Re: operational


1 plan-occupation of CFB 2 Ipperwash 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And is it fair to say, if I could 6 take you to Tab 2 -- Book 2 Tab 41, it's Inquiry Document 7 2001064. 8 A: Yes? 9 Q: And did you -- have you seen this 10 briefing note before? 11 A: No, I don't believe so. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I apologize, could 13 I get the document number again? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, 2001064. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And if you haven't seen that one 19 before, it's simply reporting on issues at -- in 20 Bosanquet Township, is that correct? 21 A: Yeah, it's a typical update of a 22 briefing note by the Commissioner's office. 23 Q: And that's a briefing note -- these 24 briefing notes go to... 25 A: This particular one goes to the


1 Ministry. 2 Q: Okay. And -- but you hadn't seen 3 that one before? 4 A: No, not that I recall. 5 Q: If I could take you to -- in the 6 little black book, there's a letter, it's Exhibit P-254; 7 it's Inquiry Document -- it's at Tab 25 of your book, 8 Deputy Commissioner. It's Inquiry Document 2001343. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And this is a letter from Staff 11 Sergeant Bouwman and it relates to Kettle and Stony 12 Point, the Kettle Point and policing of Kettle Point. 13 Had you seen this letter before today or before getting 14 ready for the Inquiry? 15 A: In all likelihood I did. 16 Q: And this deals with policing on 17 Kettle Point, is that correct? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And the arrangements that were made - 20 - the arrangements that had been agreed on with respect 21 to policing at Kettle Point? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And were you aware of these 24 arrangements back in 19 -- July 1994? 25 A: In and about that time I would have


1 been -- been apprised by Staff Sergeant Bouwman. 2 Q: And there's a note at the bottom of 3 page 2: 4 "There will be another meeting with 5 Chief Constable Miles C. Bressette in 6 the near future to establish future and 7 permanent protocol." 8 Do you know if a -- an additional protocol 9 was entered into with the Kettle Point Reserve prior to 10 the fall of 1995? 11 A: Not that I'm aware of. 12 Q: In the -- some time after -- and I'm 13 not exactly certain when, in the fall of 1995, after 14 September 1995, the Anishnaabek Police Service became the 15 police service for Kettle Point? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Do you know when that happened, sir? 18 A: Well, it was certainly after 1995, 19 but I couldn't tell you which year. 20 Q: And then -- it's already an Exhibit, 21 it's P-254. Then, on November... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Excuse me, Commissioner.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I would take you to your notes on 4 August -- November 18th, 1994. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Do you have those notes, sir? 9 It's... 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: Tab 16 and you should have in front 12 of you Inquiry document 1300079 which is a -- minutes -- 13 your notes that relate to a meeting at Thetford Township 14 office at two o'clock on November 18th? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Perhaps I could give you... 21 A: Thank you. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: We're at -- the notes of Deputy


1 Carson are at Tab 16 of the notes for 1990-93 . And it's 2 the last, very last page. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Page 200? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Page 200, yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And these are minutes of this -- of a 10 meeting held on November 18th, 1994 at the Township of 11 Bosanquet municipal office. 12 The -- you attended along with 13 Superintendent Tom Randall and Staff Sergeant Charlie 14 Bouwman? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And had you seen these minutes 17 before? 18 A: I don't believe so. 19 Q: Can you just take a minute and... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I know I attended the meeting. I'm 24 not sure if I got a copy of the minutes or not. I may 25 very well have.


1 Q: Pardon me, sir? 2 A: I may very well have had a copy of 3 the minutes, I'm not sure off the top of my head. 4 Q: Perhaps you could tell us what your 5 notes say at the page 200 of Exhibit 397? 6 A: Yeah, it indicates I attended a 7 meeting at the Thetford Township office with Mayor 8 Thomas, Ken Williams, Jack Lazenby (phonetic), Carol 9 McKenzie, Norm Shawnoo, Gerald George, Lieutenant Colonel 10 McDon -- or Campbell, Superintendent Randall, Staff 11 Sergeant Bouwman and Rosemary Ur, regarding Ipperwash. 12 "Concern about legal access to military 13 base occurrences. Digging ditch. 14 Shots being fired. Recommended by Ken 15 Williams dig barriers to prevent 16 access. Provided caution about provoke 17 -- provoking confrontation, the need to 18 have some consultation with the 19 Occupiers and MP Ur indicated she felt 20 DND responsible to repair the fences." 21 Q: So, one (1) of the issues was a -- a 22 -- and I think we've heard some evidence about this 23 earlier about a hole in the fence on Outer Drive and the 24 -- and an issue about that? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: And did you have anything to do with 2 the -- I note that you indicate that the -- you are 3 recommending that they consult with the Township and 4 consult with the Occupiers with respect to the offence, 5 is that correct, or the Military? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the -- I understand that there 8 was assistance by the occupiers in not only facilitating 9 the repair of the fence, but trying to block people 10 coming in from that -- from Outer Drive, were you aware 11 of that? 12 A: Yeah, I believe there was some 13 dialogue between the Military and the occupiers. 14 Q: And the occupiers assisted with 15 solving -- trying to solve this problem? 16 A: That's my understanding as I recall. 17 Q: Okay. Thank you. Perhaps, 18 Commissioner, we could stop for a moment and we'll come 19 back and review these minutes, perhaps first thing 20 tomorrow morning? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 It's a good time to stop for the day, it is 4:30. 23 24 (WITNESS RETIRES) 25


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: What we'll -- we'll 2 make it -- we'll deal with this in the morning, 3 Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we start tomorrow 6 morning at nine o'clock? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, we'll 8 start tomorrow morning at 9:00 and finish at 3:30? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 11 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, May the 12th, at 9:00 12 a.m. 13 14 --- Upon adjourning at 4:30 p.m. 15 16 17 Certified Correct 18 19 20 21 ___________________ 22 Carol Geehan 23 24 25